Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Feb 1-4, 2003

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7559 From: Livia Cornelia Hibernia Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7560 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7561 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Thank you for welcoming me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7562 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7563 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: I've just been told I'm now a new citizen of Nova Roma!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7564 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Is there a Web site that translates poems into Latin from English?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7565 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Ancient Roman DNA and whose studying it
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7566 From: Alexandros Pavlides Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes intulit agresti Latio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7567 From: aerdensrw Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Archaeogenetics YahooGroup?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7568 From: aerdensrw Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7569 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: I've just been told I'm now a new citizen of Nova Roma!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7570 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7571 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7572 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7573 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: RES: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM I from the PLEBEIAN AEDILSHIP - DE SCRIBA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7574 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: double postings--sorry!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7575 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7576 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7577 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: My last message
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7578 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7579 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Gaius Galerius Peregrinator's question about taxes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7580 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7581 From: Adrian Gunn Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: The Columbia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7582 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: The Space Shuttle "Columbia"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7583 From: Anthony Scott Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: The Columbia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7584 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7585 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes intulit agresti Lat
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7586 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: The Columbia Catastrophy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7587 From: Joanne Shaver Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Off topic Columbia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7588 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-topic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7589 From: Pipar - Steven Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Damn...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7590 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Off topic Columbia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7591 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7592 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: P.S. Quo Vadis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7593 From: Vesta Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Off topic Columbia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7594 From: Adrian Gunn Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7595 From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7596 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7597 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7598 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7599 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-topic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7600 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7601 From: William Cornett Polanco Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7602 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7603 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7604 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7605 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7606 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7607 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7608 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7609 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7610 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Open Positions in America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7611 From: A. Hirtius Helveticus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7612 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7613 From: Chantal G. Whittington Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: "Seven Are Gone"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7614 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7615 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7616 From: M. Octavius Solaris Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7617 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Welcome to Sextus Iulius (Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7618 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7619 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7620 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7621 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7622 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7623 From: H Minucia Caesar Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7624 From: H Minucia Caesar Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7625 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7626 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7627 From: William Cornett Polanco Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7628 From: Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: From a new Citizen...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7629 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7630 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7631 From: Chantal G. Whittington Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7632 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7633 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7634 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7635 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7636 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7637 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7638 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7639 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7640 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Damn...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7641 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7642 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7643 From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-Stoic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7644 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7645 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: From a new Citizen...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7646 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: the Roman Times
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7647 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7648 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7649 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7650 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7651 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7652 From: Barry Smith Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7653 From: gens.minius@club-internet.fr Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: The Columbia Catastrophy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7654 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7655 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7656 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7657 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7658 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7659 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7660 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7661 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7662 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7663 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7664 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7665 From: Pipar - Steven Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: "Seven Are Gone"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7666 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7667 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7668 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7670 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7671 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Your Big Fat Ancient Roman Wedding
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7672 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7673 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7674 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7675 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7676 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7677 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7678 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7679 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7680 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7681 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7682 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7683 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7684 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7685 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7686 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7687 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Meritocracy & other stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7688 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: A Plan
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7689 From: Chantal G. Whittington Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7690 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Gens Minucia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7691 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7692 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7693 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: female magistrates in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7694 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7695 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7696 From: Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: female magistrates in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7697 From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7698 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Latin Dictionary Software
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7699 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: America Medioccidentalis Superior Announcement's
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7700 From: Gaius Galerius Peregrinator Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7701 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: How To Get Free Media/Press Coverage for Your Nova Roma Project
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7702 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7703 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Caesar's Palace in Reno?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7704 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Appointment of Legate Major
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7705 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7706 From: Daniel Dreesbach Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Public Dioscuri Ritual, Monday, Jan 27th
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7707 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7708 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7709 From: Jenny Harris Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7710 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Roman Times Article by Julilla



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7559 From: Livia Cornelia Hibernia Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Introduction
Salvete,

I want to thank everyone for the kind words of welcome.

Valete,

Hibernia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7560 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Introduction
On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 08:18:21PM -0800, Livia Cornelia Hibernia wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,

Salve, Livia Cornelia Hibernia -

> I am a new Nova Roma citizen!
>
> I'm a software engineer specializing in public safety systems
> for police, fire and EMS agencies; work that has kept me quite
> busy since 9/11. Besides my 20+ years of experience in software
> I also served for 10 years in the U.S. Army in Military Intelligence
> (yes, I know that is an oxymoron :)).

...and a non-sequitur. <grin> Another MI, erm, person (you probably know
what I _was_ going to say...) - welcome! I was 9th MI / 204th OPFOR at
Ft. Lewis back when. Glad to see you here.

> After looking more closely at Nova Roma in the days after I found
> it, I made the decision to apply for citizenship.

May Fortuna continue to smile upon you, and again - welcome.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.
The way is made long through rules, but short and effective through examples.
-- Seneca Philosophus, "Epistulae"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7561 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Thank you for welcoming me.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Julilla Sempronia Magna
<curatrix@v...>" <curatrix@v...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "biojournalism

Salve Julilla:

You are welcome to email me anything useful that I can put on my Web
site of help to researchers and writers interested in details of
Roman life. The purpose of my Web site is to supply free information
to anyone seeking background material for their short stories set in
ancient Rome. So original facts or short articles on textiles,
fabrics, or anything of interest to mystery story writers writing
about ancient Rome is welcome. I'm putting up excerpts from my short
stories, etc.

Vale,
Octavia Fabia Scriba
My new email address is: auralhistory@...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7562 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Introduction
Salve Livia Cornelia Hibernia,

Welcome. I'd love to learn some Latin. I studied Spanish and French
in school long ago, and I also speak some Arabic---asalamooaleikum--
some Greek, kali orexi--and some Armenian---seroon akchig. Isn't
language fun? So enjoy Nova Roma. I've been a member one full day
now.

Vale,

Octavia Fabia Scriba


http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com
(The Ancient Rome Fiction Site)
http://dnadetectives.tripod.com
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7563 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: I've just been told I'm now a new citizen of Nova Roma!
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
> Octavia, are you going to use my roman pimp idea?


Salve:

I'm thinking about it, but the novel focuses on a finder, a private
eye/ransomer/detective character who must work with the very modest
15-year old new bride of Cato the Elder. The woman has an infant son
from the widower, Cato, whom she married in his old age--the
daughter of his former scribe.

So at this point, the novel revolves around a very conservative
household consisting of the elder Cato, his young son and the son's
new bride, and Cato's new young wife, the same age--15--as Cato's
son's new wife. The two young women become friends as each has an
infant son.

And the detective character also is a practicing physician looking
for a book on healing plants. It's the detective character who has
to get himself out of trouble....So at this time, I don't see a role
for a pimp. What's a scarlet pimpernel by the way?

The book's title will be "Too Roman to Hold."

Vale,

Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7564 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Is there a Web site that translates poems into Latin from English?
Salvete Omnes:

Anyone know of a Web set that has a translation machine that would
translate a poem from English into Latin? I see several online that
translate into Italian, French, Spanish, German and Portuguese. Any
Latin translation sites around?

Thanks

Vale,

Octavia Fabia Scriba
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7565 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Ancient Roman DNA and whose studying it
Salvete Omnes:

If anyone's interested in ancient Roman DNA or ancient/modern DNA or
mtDNA and Y chromosome studies such as the geography and history of
human genes, population genetics and Roman history, etc....this is
my special area. I've written two books on DNA and related subjects.

For example, do you know how to interpret your DNA test results to
see whether your sequences match those of a famous ancient Roman who
is being studied? Take the evangelist Luke, for example. Dr.
Barbujani of Ferarra opened the first century sarco and examined the
remains for mtDNA sequences in Luke.

Found he could be from Antioch, but not Greek. An article was
written, and the sequences made public. So ancient DNA is a
fascinating topic, where you can match your genes with the most
famous of Romans or other people who lived in the first century or
before, if those remains are being studied.

Fascinating. You can find all this information free in most
scholarly libraries in articles compiled in Archaeogenetics, books
on DNA, or other journals. Maybe you can know for sure whether
you're related to someone famous in history, although the chances of
inheriting the DNA is miniscule from someone living 80 generations
ago....except for one element, the mitochondrial DNA or the Y
chromosome. That mutates only once in about 500 generations.

You never know. (There's also a Yahoo group on this subject).

Vale

Octavia Fabia Scriba.

http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html/
http://dnadetectives.tripod.com
http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7566 From: Alexandros Pavlides Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes intulit agresti Latio
The Impact of Hellenism On Rome


by Myrle Winn


"Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes/intulit agresti Latio"


Hellenism's greatest prize in Italy was Rome


Horace, Epist. II, I, Lines 156-7



The name Greek is no longer a mark of a race, but of an outlook, and
is accorded to those who share our culture rather than our blood,"
said the Athenian orator Isokrates in 380 BCE.

By this time the Greek city-states no longer held political and
military dominance in the Hellenic world of the eastern
Mediterreanean. Greek culture however, continued to spread throughout
the Mediterranean into Egypt and the vast Persian empire.

By the middle of the fourth centry, King Philip of Macedonia began to
move toward an empire that united all of Greece. Upon his
assasination in 336 BCE, his son Alexander (the Greek), became king.
In one continuous campaign Alexander brought together the Greek and
Eastern empires. The spread of Greek culture from the Himalayas to
the Nile, blending the arts, cultures and institutions of Anatolia,
Egypt, Syria and Iran producing multitude of ideals and behaviours
that constituted what the heirs of the Athenians poleis and the
remainder of the western world would come to know as Hellenism.

With the conquests of Alexander, the political horizon of these
societies were extended over an immense area embracing diverse
peoples and civilizations who knew little of each other, and far less
of the ideals of Pericles, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Sophocles and
Demosthenes until many years after their deaths.

Rome came under Greek influence very early in the eight century BCE,
when Greek colonies were established in southern Italy and Sicily.
For generations Roman people were surrounded by Hellenized Etruscans
in the north, and in Naples and Sicily in the south. Though Hellenism
was to leave its unmistakable mark on almost every aspect of Roman
life and thought, they were originally very ambivalent about the
Greeks. Though Hellenism was to leave its unmistakable mark on almost
every aspect of Roman life and thought, they were originally very
ambivalent about the Greeks. On one hand they were in awe of an
obviously superior civilization, and yet there was hostility, for
Greek culture amounted to a reversal of Roman values. The Greeks were
literate, artistic, intellectual, sophisticated, delighting always in
the pleasures of life, while the Romans were hard-working, boorish
farmers with superstition ruling their lives and very often harsh
words for the 'decadent' Greeks.

After the expulsion of the Roman kings(509 BCE) the influence of the
Greeks on Italian convention began to increase. Just as Greece was
reaching its climax of culture with regard to political, military,
and artistic phases of development, the Roman farmers began to open
their eyes and realize how very much the Greeks had to offer. The
whole Italian peninsula came alive with a new civilization, similar
to the Greek model, and fashioned after it. As time went on this new
society began to gain more and more strength. Etruria began to abound
with Greek works of art, and in Lucania and Campania Greek language
and writing prevailed to a great extant.

The Greeks proved to be as gifted as a people as mankind has ever
produced, achieving supreme heights in thought and letters. They
absorbed the knowledge of the knowledge of the mysterious East, the
lore of the ancient Caldeans, the arts and crafts they found in Asia
Minor and the wonders of Egypt all to their liking. They added
immediately to everything that they learned. It was the Greeks of the
fifth and fourth centuries BCE who first became fully conscious of
the power of the human wind, who formulated what the Western world
long meant by the beautiful, and who first speculated on political
freedom. Herodotus, 'the father of history,' travelled throughout the
Greek world and far beyond, learning of the past. Thucydides, in his
account of the wars between Athens and Sparta presented history as a
guide to an enlightened citizenship and statecraft of the two great
nations.

The most famous "Greeks" after the fourth century BCE usually did not
come from Greece but from the Hellenized Near East, and especially
from Alexandria in Egypt. In later years the cities of Alexandria and
Antioch would play out a role possibly as large as Athens in the
spread of Hellenism. These two cities in particular guaranteed the
survival of the Hellenistic ideals and were the foundation of much of
the brilliance and prosperity enjoyed by the Roman Empire at the
height of its glory in the East.

Both, the Latin and the Greek branches of Hellenism came under the
political domain of the Roman Empire, and thusly Hellenism was
gradually transformed from the original Greek influence to the Roman
state and finally to the society of Europe. But even before Hellenism
came into contact with the budding Roman civilization, it had met and
interacted with the rich and ancient societies of the Near East, and
it was from this union rather than from an immediate contact with the
fifth century Greece that Roman Hellenism was born. Rome herself
became gradually Hellenized over the centuries of the Republic,
absorbing the new culture at increasing speed as her power and wealth
grew.

The greatest unifying effect of Hellenism; specifically between Rome
and Greece; was communication. The spoken word, and the language of
printing, sculpture, mosaics and architecture all of which they, and
the various provinces shared. As the provinces absorbed the culture
at a constant downhill rater, they also managed to keep their own
unique local characteristics and incorporated them when exploring the
arts themselves.

When the conquest of Magna Graecia and Sicily in the third century
BCE, and the expansion of Roman power into the eastern Mediterranean
in the second century, exposed the Romans to the cultural influences
of the brilliant Hellenistic world, the ultra-conservatives among the
Roman nobility recognized that Hellenism, with its emphasis on
intellectualism and individual happiness, represented a threat to
their traditional doctrine of subordination of self to family, class,
state, and the gods, and was thus a threat to the stability of their
rule. Accordingly, they launched a vigorous but futile campaign to
eradicate these "dangerous new ideas" from Roman life. "For indeed it
was not a little rivulet that flowed from Greece into our city, but a
mightly river of culture and learning."(1)

The anti-Hellenic movement, of which Cato the Elder (234-149 BCE),
was for a time the leader completely failed; eventually every branch
of Roman learning; philosophy, oratory, science, art, religion,
morals, manners, and dress surrenedered to Greek influence. By the
end of the second century the ancestral Roman way of life had been
transformed into a Greco-Roman culture that survived until the
decline of the Roman empire.

As the cultural 'decadence' of Greece and the joining of the noble
families took place, luxury in Rome was commented on through the
Roman historian Livy(59 BCE- 17 CE). He spoke of how the army
returned with military prizes of "bronze couches, costly
coverlets...banquets were made more attractive by the presence of
girls who played the lute and harp by other forms of
entertainment..."(2), cooking became a fine art, and the cook who was
once looked down as the lowest type of slave, was now considered to
be the practitioner of a fine art.

As Rome grew and expanded, the wall of hypocrisy grew ever higher.
Those who pointed their fingers of scorn at Greek "decadence," were
themselves products of Hellenic education; Greek "decadence," were
themselves products of Hellenic education; Greek was their second
language and Athens or Rhodes the goal of their studies. No more
perfect example could compete with Marcus Tullio Cicero (106-43 BCE)
as a Roman intellectual schooled in Hellenism. The translator of
Plato, Xenophon, Demosthemes, Homer and the tradgedians, he wrote a
history of his own consulate in Greek, and tradgedians, and even his
Latin writings, particularly the philosophical works, bear the stamp
of their Greek models. And yet Cicero's speeches and letters are
filled with unbelievably harsh judgments about the degeneracy of the
contemporary Greek.

The affects of Greek life and its culture on Rome was to last
forever. Commerce, war, and finally occupation and administration of
new territories transported the Romans throughout the Mediterranean.
Soldiers returning from eastern campaigns, and Greeks coming to Rome
as hostages, envoys, traders, professional men and educated slaves
familiarized the Romans with the Greek language and Greek ways.
Doctors and philosophers brought Greek skills. The plunder of cities
such as Syracuse and Corinth brought Greek works of art, great
libraries and learned men to Rome and teased the appetites of Roman
nobles for more. Few well-off Romans could resist the attractions of
civilized Greek life. Roman children were now taught in both Greek
and Latin, and it was now impossible to deny the benefits Rome was
acquiring.

Roman philosophy was a part of Greek philosophy, Roman art was
developed from Greek models. Roman gods were taken from the Greek
world of religion, and in the second century the forerunner of the
imperial cult began to take shape, paving the way for the divinity of
Roman emperors. In the third century BCE came the first plays of the
Greek model in Latin. The Romans even defined their early history to
fit precisely into the Trojan cycle and Rome itself. As Rome grew so
too did its magnetism for Greek artists and intellectuals, and she
suddenly found herself equal to Alexandria.

In the third century the beginnings of Roman literature appeared, and
a great deal of its form and content was modeled after the Greeks.
However, though the words of Homer and Sophocles were within reach
and would forever be considered golden, the writers of Rome such as
Horace, Sallust, and Ovid all developed their own brilliant and
unmistakable Latin flavor.

Actual works of Greek art came into Roman hands as booty from
military campaigns. There are frequent references to the Roman
borrowing of Greek forms and styles. The divisions between Greek and
Roman art at times are difficult to determine. These difficulties
arise because the Romans appropriated Greek forms but then frequently
used them for different purposes, the result is superficially close
but essentially different from the Greek.

The 1st century BCE, witnessed a belated artistic impact of Greece
upon the aristocratic and family traditions of Rome, and this
influence caused remarkable developments in portraiture. The affluent
of Rome were among the world's great art patrons. Surviving passages
in Latin literature often refer to the decoration of their palaces
and villas with Greek reliefs, decorated urns, sarcophagi, statues
and portraits busts. Wealthy Romans commissioned copies of Greek
works of all epochs ranging from sixth to the second century BCE.

Most Roman patrons knew very little of art, but they knew what they
liked. Portraits were what they wanted above all. The mentality of
upper-class Romans contained an ingrained sense of history and of
facturalism and was deeply attracted by portraits which would record
and analyze the features and expressions of the individual in his own
social and historical setting and without sparing his physical
oddities. They wanted a sculptural biography chronicling and summing
up a man's achievement and experiences. They endowed the art not only
with an incentive and with funds but with a Roman definiteness,
purpose, and dignity and with an inspiring, challenging new range of
subjects-namely their own resolute, tough, square faces, vigorously
displaying every blend between northern endurance and southern
exuberance.

At Rome there was an increasing demand for realistic portraits of the
living as well as the dead, and in the final century of the Republic
the Greek custom of erecting statues in honour of famous men was
extended to Rome, where senior officials became entitled to set up
portrait statues of themselves in public places.

The sculptors of the Roman portrait gallery that now began, and
became one of the chief glories of Roman civilization, were only very
infrequently Romans or Italians; They were very nearly all Greeks or
Orientals of Greek culture and training. In common with artists, they
had gained in esteem under the monarchies which followed Alexander.
In this most Roman of all achievements it was Greek-speaking non-
Romans and easterners who were the experts. In particular, the
employment of marble, used for sculpture and wall decoration in Roman
homes from the first century BCE onward, involved techniques with
which only those brought up in Near Eastern traditions were familar.

In the sculptural reliefs which decorate their monuments, the Romans,
and their Greek or eastern artists, achieved undeniable originality.
Scenic reliefs had many centuries earlier been a conspicuous feature
of Assyrian, Babylonian, and Egyptian art, and in the fifth and
fourth centuries BCE the Greeks began experimenting with figures
placed at different levels in battle scenes and other elaborate low-
relief compositions reminiscent of paintings. Then in the official
sculpture; and painting of the monarchs who succeeded to Alexander's
heritage, attention was increasingly devoted to narrating past and
present events of national significance.

Many of the ingredients in this past history of the sculptural relief
were utilized, in original fashion, by the Greek sculptors of the
Altar of Peace(Ara Pacis) erected by Augustus at Rome. Consecrated in
13 BCE the Ara Pacis is adorned with rich and luscious floral
decoration; the designs engraved upon the Augustan Altar include set
pieces of legendary patriotic scenes.

Architecture also was but another facet of Greek life that the Romans
borrowed various aspects of. The simple but exquisitedly executed
Hellenic style had captivated the Romans as much as other
perspectives of Greece had. From the Greeks they took the three basic
orders of architecture; Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian, based on
different forms of column and foundation, and added to them a hybrid
of their own, known as Composite.

Architecture became a common denominator in the religious lives of
Rome and Greece. During the last century of the Republic the
attachment of the old indigenous form of worship was more and more
supplanted by the influence of modern Greek civilization. This
admixture of Greek mythology and Greek scepticism soon tended to
abolish the deep religious feeling characteristic of the old Romans.
The religious indifference of the upper classes grew into a decided
aversion to religion itslef, and many of the old temples fell into
disarray. When finally repaired, the old Roman temples took on a
decidedly Greek flavor.

With the influence of the Sibylline books, a great influx of Greek
gods and Greek rites took place in the early centuries of the
Republic. In the fifth century BCE the practice developed of
consulting the Greek oracle of the Sibyl at Cumae. The first Greek
gods had entered the Roman pantheon in the fifth century, but with
the entry of Aesculapius, the Greek god of medicine in 293 BCE, many
more were imported, until by the end of the third century the
amalgamation of Greek and Roman religion was completed.

Within the scope of religion, and as Rome became the dominant factor
in Hellenistic politics, the Greek cities began to transfer to her
the phenomenon of king-worship. With the expansion of the Empire,
Rome came to rule eastern nations that were accustomed to worshipping
their kings as gods and readily transferred their worship to Roman
rulers.

Augustus and his successor, Tiberius, allowed the habit to continue
in the eastern provinces during their reigns, however in the west it
was discouraged. Rather than fostering the idea of divinity upon
himself, Augustus encouraged the worship of Roma , the divine spirit
of Rome. In the east teh emperor himself was a god, but his cult had
less personal character than that of the Hellenistic monarchs. He was
a god so long as he governed the State and because he governed the
State. The sanctity of the State was embodied in the Emperor's person.

Religious belief once revered in Rome was shattered by the economic
and social unrest of the second and first centuries BCE. The
seemingly unlimited population of landless masses in Rome and the
rapid individualization of Roman society under the impact of
Hellenism, created an emptiness that the educated tried to fill
through Greek philosophy, and the lower classes in Hellenic and
Oriental mystery cults.

In 155 BCE the Athenian government send the heads of the three great
philosophical schools; as a political embassy to the impressionable
Romans: Carneades the Academic, Diogenes the Stocia and Critolaus the
Peripatetic. In the course of their extended visit Carneades treated
his Roman hosts to a spectacular display of "arguing both sides."

Carneades created a sensation at Rome, particularly among the young
who came flocking to hear Hellenism's premier intellectual perform.
Hellenism took Rome by storm once again, but this time it was not
literature, art or myth that came garbed in Greek attire, but
philosophy. It was Rome's first real encounter with that aspect of
Hellenism, and it was to be a momentous one. Not all the Romans were
happy with the learned ambassadors. Cato the Censor was determined to
have all Greek philosophers banned from Rome. He publicly expressed
his disgust at what he construed to be revolutionary notions, and
exhorted the Senate to ride Rome of these troubles. His success was
minimal and short-lived.

The Romans viewed Hellenistic intellectuals with suspicion, and the
only Stoics; who believed in an uncomplaining performance of duty and
paramount virtue; were really welcome in Rome.

A Greek Stoic, Panaetius, lived for many years in the home of P.
Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus, the son of a noble Roman family.
Panaetius taught Scipio and many others of nobility the principles of
Stoicism. In a book "On Duties" Panaetius laid down the central ideas
of Stoicism; that man is a part of a whole, that he is here not to
enjoy the pleasures of the sense, but to do his duty without
complaint. Educated Romans grasped at this philosophy as dignified
and presentable. They found in its ethics a moral code completely
congenial to their ancient traditions and ideals. Stoicism became the
inspiration of Scipio, the consolation of Marcus Aurelius, and the
conscience of Rome.

The period which followed the end of the third Macedonian War was one
of great significant in the histyory of education in Rome. Thousands
of prisoners were brought across the Adriatic, many of whom found
employment as 'pedagogues' or tutors in Roman families. Greek slaves
tutored Roman children in the Greek language and the classics: Homer,
Hesiod, and the plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Cleander. In the
third and second centuries BCE, education was gradually
institutionalized and merged with Greek intellectualism. Despite
conservative opposition schools were introduced; these were largely
in the hands of Greek slaves and freedmen. Literature, both Greek and
Latin, philosophy, rhetoric, and other aspects of the liberal arts
became part of the formal curriculum. For increasing numbers, formal
education culminated in a trip to the "university centers" of the
Greek East. Rome learned from Greek humanism.

It is clear that the Imperium Romanum was founded on the polis.
Cities provided Rome with a convenient channel for her commands and
her demnads for resources through taxation. The Romans themselves had
neither the manpower nor the funds to staff the lower levels of
provincial administration.

The situation was nothing new in the ancient world. The empires of
classical Greece, those of Sparta and Athens, subordinated other
cities without necessarily subjecting them to direct rule by imperial
power. Their principle was inherited by the Macedonian monarchs:
Alexander the Great, who took over and used the old organization of
the Persian empire in Asia, created new cities and his successors,
especially the Seleucides, added more, either re-enforcing old
communities or creating them from their demobilized soldiers.

In the Hellenized provinces, Rome based her arrangements on their own
cities from the time she first organized Siciliy onwards. In
provinces, where there was an existing network of villages, she used
these as a basis, until the majority of them became municipia under
the Principate.

No Roman magistrates were regularly installed in the Eastern
Mediterranean until 148-7 BCE. Instead commanders were sent, when and
where necessary, to fight wars and to organize peoples who had
voluntarily became allies or succumbed to Roman power.

Such indirect control was possible because the Romans were dealing
with monarchs or with well-established local institutions in the form
of a city or a non-urban political community, which they could on the
whole manipulate to achieve stability in their own interests.

Roman citizenship was a unifying factor but a distinct privelege.
Although Roman law was entreched inside colonies and municipia,
elsewhere it co-existed with local law. Laws varied from province to
province and even from city to city.

The term that the Romans came to use for the areas directly
administered by their officials was provincia, (appointment, task).
Provincia was first used with the creation of the province of
Macedonia in 148-7, and its Greek annexes in 146-145.

Rome, however, was cautious about direct intervention in Greek
affairs. The designation of "free city" was given to many cities now
in Roman control. They were allowed to be free, in possession of
their own laws, free from garrisons and from paying tribute.(4)

Rome had been learning from her Greek mentors. Such declarations had
been formally made about individual cities by Antiochus II and III
and by Philip V; even Ptolmy II and Alexander had made similar
statements.(5)

The freedom was conditional on the Greeks' continued friendship with
Rome, but the Greeks had little doubt that they were still subject to
a dominant power.

The cities in Africa were again treated differently. After the
destruction of Carthage, Rome acknowledged the freedom of those
cities which had supported her in the war against Carthage, and
granted them their own land.

In the Hellenized provinces of the Greek east the existing Greek
cities there provided the Roman empire with ready-made urban centers,
but some sort of compromise was required between the Roman
expectations and the long tradition of Greek city politics.

From the time the Romans began to exercise power in Greece, they had
tended to favor oligarchic constitutions, without trying to eliminate
entirely any of the three many elements, which were the foundation
not only of the Greek constitution but of their own republican system.

During the late Republic some Romans became citizens of Athens and
actually were elected to various governmental councils - something
which Cicero showed strong disapproval in 65 BCE.(6) It is believed
that these actions were taken in order to ensure that the wealthier
and more aristocratic section of society dominated politics and the
judiciary.

This example of Athens shows the impact that Roman power could have
on a Greek city, but also how this was mediated by the use of Greek
institutions.

In the provinces of Asia Minor Rome established colonies of veterans
at Antioch and Seleucia and founded Cremna, Parlais and Olbasa.
Baths, theatres, temples, basilicas, markets, and a system of roads
was begun, all adorning the new towns and cities. Here Rome seriously
undertook the task of spreading Hellenism. She did not acquire any
new methods, but rather followed in the foosteps of previous
conquerors. Like the Hellenistic soveriegns, they founded new cities
by bringing together isolated groups under common ground, worked for
the development of a better municipal system and encouraged inter-
provincial trade.

With the battle of Actium (31 BCE) Augustus ruled alone. "Magis alii
homines alii mores."(7) There was peace after many years and Rome was
grateful. Much of the land captured was filled with barbarians, but
much of the realm of Hellenistic culture. It was the Greeks who made
the Romans conscious of their own individual character and while Rome
assimilated the culture of the Greeks, and all they had to offer they
also shaped their history, traditions and what it meant to be a Roman.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------



Bibliography:

Africa, Thomas W. The Immense Majesty: A History of Rome and the
Roman Empire. Harlan Davidson. Inc. New York, NY. 1974.

Arrian. The Campaigns of Alexander. Penguin Classics. London, UK.
1958.

Boardman, John & Griffin, Jasper & Murray, Oswyn. The Roman World.
Oxford History of the Classical World. Oxford University Press.
Oxford, UK. 1986.

Bonner, Stanley F. Education in Ancient Rome. University California
Press. Berkeley, CA. 1977.

Chapot, Victor. The Roman World. Alfred A. Knopf. New York, NY. 1928.

Cicero. Res Publica. Bristol Classical Press. Devonshire, UK. 1990.

Durant, Will. Caesar and Christ. Simon & Schuster, Inc. New York, NY.
1944.

Durant, Will. The Story of Greece: Story of Civilization. Simon &
Schuster, Inc. New York, NY. 1939.

Grant, Michael. The World of Rome. Penguin Books, USA. 1960.

Green, Peter. Alexander of Macedon: A Historical Biography.
University of California Press. Berkeley, CA. 1991.

Guhl, E. & Koner, W. The Romans: Their Life and Customs. Gernsey
Press Co. Ltd. London, UK. 1994.

Kamm, Anthony. The Romans. Routledge Publications. New York, NY. 1995.

Lamm, Robert C. & Cross, Neal M. The Humanities in Western Culture.
Wm. C. Brown Publishers. Dubuque, Iowa. 1988.

Lewis, Naphtali & Reihnold, Meyer. Roman Civilization. Columbia
University Press. New York, NY. 1990.

Lintott, Andrew. Imperium Romanun: Politics and Administration.
Routledge Press. New York, NY. 1950.

Palmer, R.R. & Colton, Joel. History of the Modern World. McGraw-
Hill, Inc. New York, NY. 1933.

Peters, F.E. Harvest of Hellenism. Barnes & Noble Press. USA, 1970.

Plutarch. Makers of Rome. Penguin Classics. London, UK. 1965.

Tacitus. The Annals of Imperial Rome. Penguin Classics. London, UK.
1956.

Tarn, W. W. Hellenitic Civilization. Edward Arnold Ltd. London, UK.
1927.

Toynbee, Arnold. The Greeks and Their Heritages. Oxford University
Press. Oxford, UK. 1981.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7567 From: aerdensrw Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Archaeogenetics YahooGroup?
Octavia Fabia Scriba--What is the name of this YahooGroup that you
referred to? I would be interested in at least giving it a look. My
ancestry is Italian, and, while my father's family were Sicilians and
likely not prominent, I would still be interested in learning more
about this subject.

---
Renata Corva
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7568 From: aerdensrw Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Omnes--It looks like Space Shuttle Columbia may have come apart
during re-entry.

I can't believe this is happening again.

May we offer our prayers for the families?

---
Renata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7569 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: I've just been told I'm now a new citizen of Nova Roma!
Ave Octavia:

Your book sounds fantastic! When will it be ready?

Hey, you know what? Nova Roma will be a wealth of information to you, by way of research and those members who actually re-enact Roman life to offer you practical insights. And while your books will draw postive publicity towards our great experiment, there is only one thing more satisfying than publicity-cold, hard cash.

May I suggest that when your books start selling, that you donate 10% of your profits to Nova Roma? As an example, I myself pledge to donate 10% of my profits from Ancientartillery.com to Nova Roma! Thats a $120.00 so far!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis






The LaSalle Law Office
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
> Octavia, are you going to use my roman pimp idea?


Salve:

I'm thinking about it, but the novel focuses on a finder, a private
eye/ransomer/detective character who must work with the very modest
15-year old new bride of Cato the Elder. The woman has an infant son
from the widower, Cato, whom she married in his old age--the
daughter of his former scribe.

So at this point, the novel revolves around a very conservative
household consisting of the elder Cato, his young son and the son's
new bride, and Cato's new young wife, the same age--15--as Cato's
son's new wife. The two young women become friends as each has an
infant son.

And the detective character also is a practicing physician looking
for a book on healing plants. It's the detective character who has
to get himself out of trouble....So at this time, I don't see a role
for a pimp. What's a scarlet pimpernel by the way?

The book's title will be "Too Roman to Hold."

Vale,

Octavia



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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7570 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Salve I just got back on-line and saw the news. Please pray for the Astronauts we lost and that we find out what went wrong this time.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: aerdensrw
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:47 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)

Omnes--It looks like Space Shuttle Columbia may have come apart
during re-entry.

I can't believe this is happening again.

May we offer our prayers for the families?

---
Renata


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7571 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Tribunus Plebis Diana Moravia Aventina Comitia Plebis Tributa SPD

Salvete,

The results of the election for the 2 vacant offices of Tribunus Plebis
have been certified by the Rogatores.

Due to the small size of many plebeian Tribes, the identities of the
citizens that voted could easily
be recognized, so the actual Tribe numbers won by each candidate will not be
published.

Of 35 tribes, only 24 voted. Each candidate needed to win 18 or more tribes
in order to be elected:

Gaius Modius Athanasius ----- won 13 Tribes
Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius----- won 13 Tribes
Gaius Popillius Laenas----- won 9 Tribes
Gaius Geminius Germanus----- won 3 Tribes

Since none of the candidates have won the required 18 Tribes in order to be
elected, another run-off election will be needed to fill the two vacant
positions of Tribunus Plebis.

The next run-off election shall be called within 30 days in accordance with
V.B.1.a. of the LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM.

On behalf of myself and my colleagues Marcus Marcius Rex and Lucius Pompeius
Octavianus, I would like to thank our 4 candidates for their continued
participation and fortitude!

My personal thanks to our team of Rogatores, especially Renata Corva Cantrix
& Quintus Cassius Calvus for all of their hard work and helpfulness.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7572 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Tribunus Plebis Diana Moravia Aventina Comitia Plebis Tributa SPD

Salvete,

The results of the election for the 2 vacant offices of Tribunus Plebis have
been certified by the Rogatores.

Due to the small size of many plebeian Tribes, the identities of the
citizens that voted could easily
be recognized, so the actual Tribe numbers won by each candidate will not be
published.

Of 35 tribes, only 24 voted. Each candidate needed to win 18 or more tribes
in order to be elected:

Gaius Modius Athanasius ----- won 13 Tribes
Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius----- won 13 Tribes
Gaius Popillius Laenas----- won 9 Tribes
Gaius Geminius Germanus----- won 3 Tribes

Since none of the candidates have won the required 18 Tribes in order to be
elected, another run-off election will be needed to fill the two vacant
positions of Tribunus Plebis.

The next run-off election shall be called within 30 days in accordance with
V.B.1.a. of the LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM.

On behalf of myself and my colleagues Marcus Marcius Rex and Lucius Pompeius
Octavianus, I would like to thank our 4 candidates for their continued
participation and fortitude!

My personal thanks to our team of Rogatores, especially Renata Corva Cantrix
& Quintus Cassius Calvus for all of their hard work and helpfulness.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7573 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: RES: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM I from the PLEBEIAN AEDILSHIP - DE SCRIBA
Salve

(vc deve já estar de saco cheio pensando "o q q esse menino tá enchendo!!!!
eu num to nem a fim de pensar nisso agora e ele fica me perguntando o tempo
todo q saco!!", mas eu preciso perguntar....)

Há três scribae. Eu preciso que você me explique exatamente qual será a
função de cada um (ou melhor a minha eu já sei, nem precisa explicar tão
exatamente....), pois eu estou fazendo a página de "staff" e "contact".

Vale et gratias.

________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Accensus Junior Petitor Cohortis Consulis CFQ
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Scriba Retiarius Provinciae Brasiliae
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae

tagenialis@...
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ UIN: 75873373
________________________________________

-----Mensagem original-----
De: Lucius Arminius Faustus [mailto:lafaustus@...]
Enviada em: quinta-feira, 30 de janeiro de 2003 15:20
Para: LISTONA
Cc: M Arminius Maior; Gaius Galerius Peregrinator; Marcus Scribonio Curio
Britannicus; Marcus Scribonius; Titus Arminius Genialis
Assunto: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM I from the PLEBEIAN AEDILSHIP - DE SCRIBA
DESIGNATIONE



EDICTUM I FROM THE PLEBEAIN AEDILSHIP

DE SCRIBA DESIGNATIONE



The Plebeians Aediles, L. Arminius Faustus and M. Scribonius Curius
Britannicus, in accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma, issue
together on full agreement, this edictum nominating the following citizens
as their scriba:


M. Arminius Maior: Scriba Ludorum Senior
G. Galerius Peregrinator: Scriba Historicus
T. Arminius Genialis: Scriba Ludorum Retiarius (webmaster)

P. Tarquitius Rufus: Scriba Maximus



M. Arminius Maior, G Galerius Peregrinator, T. Arminius Genialis are
assigned to L. Arminius while P. Tarquitius Rufus to M. Scribonius.







Datum a.d. III Kal. FEBRVARIAS MMDCCLVI a.u.c



L. Arminius Faustus

M. Scribonius Curio Britannicus

Plebeian Aediles



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7574 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: double postings--sorry!!
Salvete everyone!
Sorry about the double posting of the results. For some reason, it took more
than 3 hours for my post to hit the lists and in between I resent it. I
think my server was just trying to make me nervous that I wouldn't get the
results out within the given timelimits.:-)

Valete!
Diana Moravia

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Diana Moravia Aventina [mailto:diana@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 1 februari 2003 13:55
Aan: ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com
CC: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com; tribunes@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [Nova-Roma] Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7575 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
In a message dated 2/1/2003 11:22:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
diana@... writes:

> Gaius Modius Athanasius ----- won 13 Tribes
> Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius----- won 13 Tribes
> Gaius Popillius Laenas----- won 9 Tribes
> Gaius Geminius Germanus----- won 3 Tribes
>
> Since none of the candidates have won the required 18 Tribes in order to be
> elected, another run-off election will be needed to fill the two vacant
> positions of Tribunus Plebis.

A special thanks to all those who voted for me in the just passed run-off
election. As frustrating as this continued run-off election process is, I
said that I was in "it" for the long haul, and will continue to stand as a
candidate.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7576 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Certified Results - Tribunus Plebis Election
Salve Honorable G. Modius Athanasius!

If it is any consolation I would have voted for You if I would have
been a plebeian. ;-)

think that my Cohors may ahve found an idea that would be possible to
use also in the Comitia Plebis Tributa to get away from these many
run off elections, just give me some time.

>In a message dated 2/1/2003 11:22:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>diana@... writes:
>
>> Gaius Modius Athanasius ----- won 13 Tribes
>> Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius----- won 13 Tribes
>> Gaius Popillius Laenas----- won 9 Tribes
>> Gaius Geminius Germanus----- won 3 Tribes
>>
>> Since none of the candidates have won the required 18 Tribes in order to be
>> elected, another run-off election will be needed to fill the two vacant
>> positions of Tribunus Plebis.
>
>A special thanks to all those who voted for me in the just passed run-off
>election. As frustrating as this continued run-off election process is, I
>said that I was in "it" for the long haul, and will continue to stand as a
>candidate.
>
>In Fellowship:
>
>G. Modius Athanasius

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7577 From: Titus Arminius Genialis Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: My last message
Salvete.

I would like to apologize about my last message. It should be an informal,
private message and I sent it to the wrong address.
I'm really sorry.....

Gostaria de pedir desculpas pela minha última mensagem. Ela deveria ser uma
mensagem particular e informal, mas eu a enviei para o endereço errado. Por
favor me desculpem...

Valete.



________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Accensus Junior Petitor Cohortis Consulis CFQ
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Scriba Retiarius Provinciae Brasiliae
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae

tagenialis@...
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ UIN: 75873373
________________________________________

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/1/2003


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7578 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
> Salve I just got back on-line and saw the news. Please pray for the
Astronauts we lost and that we find out what went wrong this time.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>removed]

Salvete omnes,

Our prayers to all the Astronauts. Sadly as we are going to
eventually leave this earth and expand to the stars this is not the
first nor the last tragedy. There will be many more brave souls
lining up to replace these people and they will not hesitate to
follow in their footsteps.

When we consider the number of ship wrecks found and being found in
the seas of the Roman World, we see that such tradgedies were not
uncommon as they expanded into unknown realms yet they too kept going.
Investigations in this day and age are far more sophisticated and
NASA'S inginuity will find the answers in good time. Meanwhile, hail
to those brave people who we lost today but may their bravery and
spirits of adventure continue on in the hearts of men and women.

Valete bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7579 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Gaius Galerius Peregrinator's question about taxes
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
<gaiusgalerius@h...> scripsit:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> And speaking of which, when is the tax season due anyway. I
don't want to be a tax beat.
>
> Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

Julilla Sempronia Magna Gai Galeri omnibusque SPD

Please excuse the tardiness of your very reasonable question on when
taxes are due; I was able to recall generally when they were paid
last year, but had to ask some questions, and must admit that the
answer is, even now, not etched in stone!

Notices went out last year in early Februarius, with payments due, I
seem to recall on the Kalends of March. My records show that I paid
on the Ides of Februarius last year.

Now I'm told that these dates may be adjusted for this year, but for
now, expect tax statements to be delivered some time later this month.

I hope this helps!

bene vale,

Julilla Semprona Magna

Accensa, Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Officina ad Consuetudines et Communicati
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7580 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
-----Original Message-----
From : Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>

Salve I just got back on-line and saw the news. Please pray for the Astronauts we lost and that we find out what went wrong this time.
>
Pray for their relatives - they are still here to need it. Heads had better roll because this has been waiting to happen. The shuttles are OLD. Buzz Aldrin put a similar scenario into a novel about ten years ago. NASA is starved of funds and it is involved in missions that should really have been turned over to private concerns to develop while it pushed at the extremes and prepared for Mars. At the same time, if it were left entirely to private enterprise there would no doubt be many more tragedies - look at the history of aircraft development.

Vibius.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7581 From: Adrian Gunn Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: The Columbia
Salvete,

I would like to ask all of the citizens of Nova Roma to remember the six
American and one Israeli crewmen of the Space Shuttle Columbia and their
families, in their hearts and prayers over the next few days. Six of the
astronauts were married, and five had children. Rick Husband, Michael
Anderson, Kalpana Chawla, William McCool, David Brown, Laurel Clark and
Ilan Ramon gave their lives as heroes, seeking to better the world for
all mankind.

As Minerva Templi Sacerdotes I shall offer a prayer to Minerva on behalf
of these astronauts, and for all of the brave men and women who risk
their lives each day, in the exploration of space for the betterment of
humanity.
"Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds...and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of...wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up, the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, nor even eagle flew.
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space...
...put out my hand, and touched the face of God."
High Flight by John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Lictor
Minerva Templi Sacerdotes

Patria est communis omnium parens.
"Our native land is the common parent of us all." - Cicero


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7582 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: The Space Shuttle "Columbia"
Ex Officio Consulis Senioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani


Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Omnibus Civibus Novae Romae SPD,

Today, the space shuttle "Columbia" broke up and fell to Terra Mater
over the province of America AuAustroccidentalis (Texas) on the
continent of America Septentrionalis.

This tragedy has touched the lives not only of the millions
Americans, but throughout the world. Our hearts go out to the
astronauts' families and friends, and to the citizens in Asia
Occidentalis who lost their brave countrymen, Colonel Illan Ramon and
Kalpana Chawla.

May the Gods set these brave astronauts forever in the stars, as they
remain in our hearts.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7583 From: Anthony Scott Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: The Columbia
The crew died like Romans in that they died doing what they had always wanted to do, namely fly in space and see the universe...I will not mourn them yet but in true Roman fashion celebrate their lives tonight and mourn properly on the morrow.

Their memories will live on as bright as stars and as long as we remember and speak their names.

Well Done Crew of Columbia!





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7584 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, me-in-@d... wrote:

> Pray for their relatives - they are still here to need it. Heads
>had better roll because this has been waiting to happen. The
>shuttles are OLD. Buzz Aldrin put a similar scenario into a novel
>about ten years ago. NASA is starved of funds and it is involved in
>missions that should really have been turned over to private
>concerns to develop while it pushed at the extremes and prepared for
>Mars. At the same time, if it were left entirely to private
>enterprise there would no doubt be many more tragedies - look at the
>history of aircraft development.

Salve,

I think its a little early to be jumping to any conclusions as to
what caused this horrible tragedy. Space exploration may be
seemingly routine to us bound firmly to terra mater, but it is
anything but routine. It is a dangerous business in which any number
of things can go wrong. The best that can ever be done is to
minimize the risks but the risks will always be there. I can only
speak for myself, but if I had the opportunity to go up on a shuttle
tommorow, I would take that risk.

Salve,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7585 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes intulit agresti Lat
Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alexandros Pavlides
<foroellenico@y...>" <foroellenico@y...> wrote:
> The Impact of Hellenism On Rome
>
>
> by Myrle Winn
>
>
> "Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes/intulit agresti Latio"

An extremely interesting article. This is an issue that has always
seemed important to me: how much influence did the Hellenic world
*really* exert over Rome? How succesfully was that influence
integrated into the Roman culture? And to what extent?

Thank you very much for sharing this with us, mister Pavlides.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7586 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: The Columbia Catastrophy
Salvete Quirites.

I would like to express my deep and sincere sorrow for what has
happened today. The death of innocents is always a terrible thing; the
death of astronauts, who in some way represent the very best of us all
when they delve into the void like explorers and navigators of yore, is
a global catastrophy.

Regardless of their nationality, astronauts are heroes of Mankind. I
will mourn them. May they rest in peace.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR·ET·SENATOR
TRIVMVIR·ACADEMIAE
LICTOR·CVRIATVS

___________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7587 From: Joanne Shaver Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Off topic Columbia
Salvete, all. Merlinia Ambrosia here.
It was mentioned that Columbia was old. No, she should have lasted
100 flights. She went at 28. She should have carried the Astronauts well.

We shall see what did happen.

Note: All 3 times we've lost astronauts, (Columbia, Challenger,&
Apollo I, totaling 17) it was all within a few days of each other.
To paraphrase GW Bush-
They did not make it back safe to Earth, but Pray they made it Home.
Valete.
-M.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7588 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-topic)
> Pray for their relatives - they are still here to need it. Heads
>had better roll because this has been waiting to happen. The
>shuttles are OLD. Buzz Aldrin put a similar scenario into a novel
>about ten years ago. NASA is starved of funds and it is involved in
>missions that should really have been turned over to private
>concerns to develop while it pushed at the extremes and prepared for
>Mars. At the same time, if it were left entirely to private
>enterprise there would no doubt be many more tragedies - look at the
>history of aircraft development.



On February 1st, 2003, the shuttle COLUMBIA, on her 113th flight, broke up
during re-entry over northeastern Texas. Seven astronauts have died. I
awakened to a radio report and switched to television, where streaks of flame
and white vapor upset a prestine blue sky. I talked to a friend who was very
upset and another who was angry via IMs.
Now I’m sitting in my favorite coffee hangout, typing this and listening to
one of the local conspiracy idiots speculate on satellite laser sabotage
because he saw it on Fox News (that audio-visual club for idiots) and it is
all I can do to keep from hitting him with a chair.
This is a human tragedy. Our outward urge to explore, to see and to know, is
perhaps the essence of the best of what we humans are. The cost of the space
program is insignificant when seen beside its benefits, both scientific and
commercial. Far more money is spent each year on cosmetics, fashion,
election campaigns, fast food advertising or any of a hundred other
trivialities. But there is a greater good that comes from space exploration
that cannot be quantified.
From the moment when a primitive man first climbed aboard a log, pushed it
out into the river and let it carry him downstream because he wanted to see
what was around the bend, human beings have needed to know. When the
pentekonters of the Greeks and Carthaginians; the cogs and longships of
Britain and Scandanavia; the caravels and carracks of Spain and Portugal;
the great canoes of Polynesia, or the junks of China and Japan first ventured
beyond the sight of land or sailed south along unknown coasts, they were
desperate to discover. To find gold and spices, silver and slaves, religious
converts and subservient colonies to be sure, for we are a brutally
aquisitive breed, but also to push back the maps. To make it easier to get
from here to there. To teach and to learn.
Along the way, primitive societies were often disrupted or destroyed, as
later were their conquerors: Egypt, Greece, Persia, Rome, the Mongols, the
Arabs, the Vikings, the Goths; later Spain, Portugal, France, Holland,
Ottoman Turkey, Germany, Japan, Britain, Russia…and the United States.
Change is ever ongoing and no system lasts forever. Only the urge to know
and to learn persists.
We are faced with a hundred possible outcomes of our actions and we will reap
a million tragedies, but if we can survive as a species we may be able to put
it all right. There may be a utopia in our future, but only if we seek it,
and continue to push back the maps. Starmaps perhaps—because we need to go,
out there, into the dark places. And if you think there is nothing out there
but darkness, remember: most of our terrestrial maps were speckled with dark
unknown places. It was only after we had filled them in that we got into
real trouble, that the world wars started. We need incomplete maps.
We lost seven scientists today, and no polemics, whether emotional or
reasoned, can bring them back. And no second-guessing can diminish their
courage or their accomplishments. The shuttles will fly again and, if we are
persistant and lucky, we will have ancestors who will be aliens, born on
distant worlds, who will remember the small green planet that was once home.
And in their peace and prosperity, they will reverance the ones who made it
possible, the courageous, stubborn people of Earth, who never gave up.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7589 From: Pipar - Steven Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Damn...
Salus et Fortuna Omnes,

Just got home from work, to the news of the shuttle Columbia and her crew...

Damn...

Seven Are Gone

Sunna has risen, bright in the East
Washing starlight, out of the sky
Wispy skysheep, in their blue lea
Calmly, gently, day has begun

Within the black, high above Earth
A small spark glows, grows in our sight
Out from the dark, lying in West
Skyfaring wain, Starheim Seeker

Columbia, bearing seven
Brave hearts all, and good minded
Men and Women, Worthy in Deed
Road flame pillar, seeking to Do

At the Skyhall, duty they did
Working to build, working to Learn
Living a Dream, Far Travelers
Beyond the bounds, of earthly home

Fortnight, twinnight, both together
Was the length of, venture journey
Sixteen full days, beyond the Winds
Sixteen full days, beyond Sun's Warmth

Came the morning, tools put away
All were seated, ready to fare
Winging to home, hearth and kinfolk
Looking forward, gladly longing

Ship's underbelly, tickled the clouds
Something went wrong, badly amiss
Skywain glowed hot, much too brightly
The great white ship, became embers

Shattered, falling, torn asunder
Columbia, and the brave seven
Into our hearts, tragically thrust
Such a great loss, for Kin and Kith

No more to hear, words from their lips
No more to feel, loving embrace
No more to see, them anymore
No more, no more, but Memory

In this regard, all will recall
Darkness of day, brightness of death
Better still is, bringing to mind
Names they did build, Fame they did have

Sunna has risen, bright in the East
Washing starlight, out of the sky
Wispy skysheep, in their blue lea
Calmly, gently, day has begun

=======================
In Amicus sub fidelis
-Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7590 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Off topic Columbia
--- Joanne Shaver <merlinia@...> wrote:
> Salvete, all. Merlinia Ambrosia here.
> It was mentioned that Columbia was old. No, she
> should have lasted
> 100 flights. She went at 28. She should have
> carried the Astronauts well.
>
> We shall see what did happen.
>
> Note: All 3 times we've lost astronauts,
> (Columbia, Challenger,&
> Apollo I, totaling 17) it was all within a few days
> of each other.
> To paraphrase GW Bush-
> They did not make it back safe to Earth, but Pray
> they made it Home.
> Valete.
> -M.
>
Columbia was in orbit during the aniverseries of the
Earlier losses. On the 28th they payed tribute to the
crews of Apollo 1 (January 27, 1967) and Challenger
(January 28, 1986). Today when I heard a tape of Rick
Husband during Columbia's memorial tribute to the 10
astronauts I burst into tears.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7591 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Quo Vadis?
Ave Senatus Populusque Romanus:

I spend a lot of time with Nova Roma. My free time. I've pledged not insignificant amounts of money to it also. Reading through an average of 30 e-mails a day. I am dedicated to the idea of Nova Roma, and like many of my fellow citizens dream of a day, in my lifetime, when I can walk down the streets of a Nova Roman city. However, I feel that under the current leadership that this dream will not be realized.

For what Nova Roma is now, the leadership is fine. But for a group of people who, for the most part, have never had any face to face contact, how on earth do we have 66 laws? Innumerable Senatus Consultums? Endless petty debates about meaningless nothings by e-mail. If this is to be a real world project, I want to see some real world action.

What does that mean? That means we need a plan. A realistic plan. A plan that involves significant amounts of fund raising. A long term outlook. Long term goals with short term ideas to implement those long term goals. A five year plan with goals to be met. A three year plan with goals to be met. A one year plan with goals to be met.

And I want proven leaders to head up those goals. I want the goals to be realistic. Here's an example. I was given the task of "rating" North America's suitability for land purchase to eventually be turned into our sovereign nation. Part of the rating included infrastructure, water, education, taxes, etc. I was to give each category a rating between one and ten. Now, North America includes Canada, Mexico, and the 48 contiguous states of the US. Each one as different as apple pie and pizza. Not to mention the troublesome fact that America, Canada, and Mexico will never, ever, never, ever, never, ever ever ever let a sovereign nation exist on their soil. While the project was well thought out in and of itself, it was patently unrealistic.

So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is for a plan. A 5-3-1 year plan. I want our goals and our society to be realistic. This class division of patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the Republic. I want a vote on the issue: The abolition of class division. As I was reminded today, 2000 plus years have passed since the Republic existed. Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it diabolically ironic that we divide ourselves, on purpose, into classes.

Our publications should be free from Senatorial supervision and funding. Government has no business in regulating, on any level, the media. While those in some European countries would disagree, well, trust me, its better not to have your government regulating your media. I want a vote on that issue.

And we need a plan.

Appoint a commission. Do what you do. Give us plan. Show us the way. Lead us.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola







The LaSalle Law Office
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7592 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: P.S. Quo Vadis
and my girlfriend is pissed at me, too, for spending too much time here.

So lets go!







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7593 From: Vesta Date: 2003-02-01
Subject: Re: Off topic Columbia
--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@...> wrote:
> Columbia was in orbit during the aniverseries of the
> Earlier losses. On the 28th they payed tribute to the
> crews of Apollo 1 (January 27, 1967) and Challenger
> (January 28, 1986). Today when I heard a tape of Rick
> Husband during Columbia's memorial tribute to the 10
> astronauts I burst into tears.

And if we add the cosmonauts, the count is 21

Vestinia Caprenia

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7594 From: Adrian Gunn Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve,



>So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is for a plan. A 5-3-1
year plan. I want our goals and our society to >be realistic. This class
division of patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the
Republic. I want a vote on the >issue: The abolition of class division.
As I was reminded today, 2000 plus years have passed since the Republic
existed. >Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it diabolically
ironic that we divide ourselves, on purpose, into classes.



While I applaud your enthusiasm, and I am inclined to agree that putting
together a long term plan charting Nova Roma's future is an excellent
idea, I must disagree with your position that the current system of
Patricians and Plebeians is "odious". The Encyclopedia Britannica
defines social class as:



".a group of people within a society who possess the same socioeconomic
status."



As such, I really can not accept the definition of our system in NR as
one of divided "social classes". Status as either a Plebeian or
Patrician is not pre-ordained by birth, blood or race. It is not based
on socioeconomic status, privilege or even on merit. It is simply the
choice of the individual citizen, who may at any time choose to change
from one to the other by simply moving to another Gens. The resemblance
to the actual system practiced by the Romans is purely superficial, as
is in the case of many of NR's institutions. The motive, I believe for
devising such a system for NR, was simply to create a more Roman "feel"
to our organization, rather than re-create the social inequities which
helped bring about the collapse of the Republic. There is really very
little difference between Patricians and Plebeians in NR. The former get
a token advantage in century points, the later posses an additional
forum to voice their wills. That's it. Aside from the recent debates,
which as far as I can tell have only involved a handful of citizens,
this has never really been an issue before. IMHO this all seems to be a
case of "Excitabat fluctus in simpulo". I think there are better causes
here in NR to merit our attention, and in any case if ain't broke, don't
fix it. Just my two cents worth.



Vale,



C. Minucius Hadrianus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7595 From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Sp. Postumius Tubertus C. Basilicato Agricolae Amico et Senatue Populoque Romano Novo,

Salvete Cives et Amici,

After a long night I came home to this message of C. Basilicatus. For what I got of it, I must say that for once, since I have been
here, someone has said what I have endlessly thought. There needs to be a plan.

For what we have now, I do agree with what you, Basilicatus, say: the leadership is fine. For what we want to be, I would say that
our leaders are fine, but perhaps not what has been done. And, I agree that if this is to be a "real" project for the "real" world
to see, we definantly need some "real world" action. As you said yourself, "That means we need a plan."

But what of this plan? Yes, we need fund raising. Yes, we need a long-term outlook. We need to put ourselves out to the general
public for them to see what Nova Roma is striving to be. We need a plan -- from twenty years all the way down to the next month. We
need goals to be met.

For my part, speaking from what I see, we have set one goal. The Declaratio Novae Romae states, "... we limit our active territorial
claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined." Where have we gotten with this goal in five consulships? If I am to believe
that the last reporting of the Aerarium Saturni is still true, as we have no other public records to review for this purpose, the
State has $2076.85 USD (for other countries, see below). To this I ask: Where is this going? I realize that this figure is most
likely not the current status, but with no other records, how might I state otherwise?

On a few occasions, I have offered ideas for raising money for the Land Project. Since those ideas have been published, I have seen
two actions on them. I also know that others have ideas that have been thrown out for the same purposes. Has any action been taken
on them? I do not know in the least bit.

So now, I am almost certain, it is being asked where I am going with all this meaningless talk. In short, I am saying that I, as a
citizen, want to see the leaders of our beloved micronation furthering the mission of Nova Roma. According to the Constitution, "The
primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from
the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such
fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy." These words were written first by our founders.
Should not they know at least what the mission of Nova Roma is? What have we done to further this?

I can also say, Basilicatus, part of the reason for this inactivity is due to the lack of inactive citizens. But even still, who
could be able to do what we demand? Certainly no one. This, my friend, must be a group effort. We must all come together, regardless
of how much we may all anger each other, we all agree on what the mission of Nova Roma is, and that is what brings us together here
as a nation. Can it not bring us together again as acquantinces working toward a common goal? I should hope so. Nova Roma means that
much to me, and I should hope it means that much to others.

Optime Valete in Civitate,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7596 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Hadrianus:

Thank you for your support of the short-mid-long term plan.

As far as your statement that "this has never really been an issue before" concerning class divisions: if thats the case, and its no big deal, then abolish the concept. Put it to a vote. I think I know what the results will be-no more division. If the powers that be are too frightened to put it to a vote, well, then, there you have it.

I never said "social class". The division of our society into patrician/plebian is a state imposed division. Divide. Divisive. I don't care if there are no real privileges enjoyed by patricians. I don't care if we are equal. I don't care if the plebes actually have more "power" in Nova Roma. Its divisive and it stinks, and its a big problem for me, and many others, before we exert any more effort in this endeavor.

I keep on hearing things like "There is really very
little difference between Patricians and Plebeians in NR. The former get a token advantage in century points, the later posses an additional forum to voice their wills". Ok. Great. Then it shouldn't be that painful to get rid of the distinction.

We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth? Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of 'em.

G.B. Agricola



----- Original Message -----
From: Adrian Gunn
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:11 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?






Salve,



>So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is for a plan. A 5-3-1
year plan. I want our goals and our society to >be realistic. This class
division of patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the
Republic. I want a vote on the >issue: The abolition of class division.
As I was reminded today, 2000 plus years have passed since the Republic
existed. >Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it diabolically
ironic that we divide ourselves, on purpose, into classes.



While I applaud your enthusiasm, and I am inclined to agree that putting
together a long term plan charting Nova Roma's future is an excellent
idea, I must disagree with your position that the current system of
Patricians and Plebeians is "odious". The Encyclopedia Britannica
defines social class as:



".a group of people within a society who possess the same socioeconomic
status."



As such, I really can not accept the definition of our system in NR as
one of divided "social classes". Status as either a Plebeian or
Patrician is not pre-ordained by birth, blood or race. It is not based
on socioeconomic status, privilege or even on merit. It is simply the
choice of the individual citizen, who may at any time choose to change
from one to the other by simply moving to another Gens. The resemblance
to the actual system practiced by the Romans is purely superficial, as
is in the case of many of NR's institutions. The motive, I believe for
devising such a system for NR, was simply to create a more Roman "feel"
to our organization, rather than re-create the social inequities which
helped bring about the collapse of the Republic. There is really very
little difference between Patricians and Plebeians in NR. The former get
a token advantage in century points, the later posses an additional
forum to voice their wills. That's it. Aside from the recent debates,
which as far as I can tell have only involved a handful of citizens,
this has never really been an issue before. IMHO this all seems to be a
case of "Excitabat fluctus in simpulo". I think there are better causes
here in NR to merit our attention, and in any case if ain't broke, don't
fix it. Just my two cents worth.



Vale,



C. Minucius Hadrianus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7597 From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
Ave Tubertus:

I agree with everything you say.

GB Agricola
----- Original Message -----
From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Sp. Postumius Tubertus C. Basilicato Agricolae Amico et Senatue Populoque Romano Novo,

Salvete Cives et Amici,

After a long night I came home to this message of C. Basilicatus. For what I got of it, I must say that for once, since I have been
here, someone has said what I have endlessly thought. There needs to be a plan.

For what we have now, I do agree with what you, Basilicatus, say: the leadership is fine. For what we want to be, I would say that
our leaders are fine, but perhaps not what has been done. And, I agree that if this is to be a "real" project for the "real" world
to see, we definantly need some "real world" action. As you said yourself, "That means we need a plan."

But what of this plan? Yes, we need fund raising. Yes, we need a long-term outlook. We need to put ourselves out to the general
public for them to see what Nova Roma is striving to be. We need a plan -- from twenty years all the way down to the next month. We
need goals to be met.

For my part, speaking from what I see, we have set one goal. The Declaratio Novae Romae states, "... we limit our active territorial
claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined." Where have we gotten with this goal in five consulships? If I am to believe
that the last reporting of the Aerarium Saturni is still true, as we have no other public records to review for this purpose, the
State has $2076.85 USD (for other countries, see below). To this I ask: Where is this going? I realize that this figure is most
likely not the current status, but with no other records, how might I state otherwise?

On a few occasions, I have offered ideas for raising money for the Land Project. Since those ideas have been published, I have seen
two actions on them. I also know that others have ideas that have been thrown out for the same purposes. Has any action been taken
on them? I do not know in the least bit.

So now, I am almost certain, it is being asked where I am going with all this meaningless talk. In short, I am saying that I, as a
citizen, want to see the leaders of our beloved micronation furthering the mission of Nova Roma. According to the Constitution, "The
primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from
the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such
fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy." These words were written first by our founders.
Should not they know at least what the mission of Nova Roma is? What have we done to further this?

I can also say, Basilicatus, part of the reason for this inactivity is due to the lack of inactive citizens. But even still, who
could be able to do what we demand? Certainly no one. This, my friend, must be a group effort. We must all come together, regardless
of how much we may all anger each other, we all agree on what the mission of Nova Roma is, and that is what brings us together here
as a nation. Can it not bring us together again as acquantinces working toward a common goal? I should hope so. Nova Roma means that
much to me, and I should hope it means that much to others.

Optime Valete in Civitate,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus


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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7598 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve you still up? GREAT letter to NR right on target

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:54 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?









The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
Ave Tubertus:

I agree with everything you say.

GB Agricola
----- Original Message -----
From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Sp. Postumius Tubertus C. Basilicato Agricolae Amico et Senatue Populoque Romano Novo,

Salvete Cives et Amici,

After a long night I came home to this message of C. Basilicatus. For what I got of it, I must say that for once, since I have been
here, someone has said what I have endlessly thought. There needs to be a plan.

For what we have now, I do agree with what you, Basilicatus, say: the leadership is fine. For what we want to be, I would say that
our leaders are fine, but perhaps not what has been done. And, I agree that if this is to be a "real" project for the "real" world
to see, we definantly need some "real world" action. As you said yourself, "That means we need a plan."

But what of this plan? Yes, we need fund raising. Yes, we need a long-term outlook. We need to put ourselves out to the general
public for them to see what Nova Roma is striving to be. We need a plan -- from twenty years all the way down to the next month. We
need goals to be met.

For my part, speaking from what I see, we have set one goal. The Declaratio Novae Romae states, "... we limit our active territorial
claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined." Where have we gotten with this goal in five consulships? If I am to believe
that the last reporting of the Aerarium Saturni is still true, as we have no other public records to review for this purpose, the
State has $2076.85 USD (for other countries, see below). To this I ask: Where is this going? I realize that this figure is most
likely not the current status, but with no other records, how might I state otherwise?

On a few occasions, I have offered ideas for raising money for the Land Project. Since those ideas have been published, I have seen
two actions on them. I also know that others have ideas that have been thrown out for the same purposes. Has any action been taken
on them? I do not know in the least bit.

So now, I am almost certain, it is being asked where I am going with all this meaningless talk. In short, I am saying that I, as a
citizen, want to see the leaders of our beloved micronation furthering the mission of Nova Roma. According to the Constitution, "The
primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from
the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such
fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy." These words were written first by our founders.
Should not they know at least what the mission of Nova Roma is? What have we done to further this?

I can also say, Basilicatus, part of the reason for this inactivity is due to the lack of inactive citizens. But even still, who
could be able to do what we demand? Certainly no one. This, my friend, must be a group effort. We must all come together, regardless
of how much we may all anger each other, we all agree on what the mission of Nova Roma is, and that is what brings us together here
as a nation. Can it not bring us together again as acquantinces working toward a common goal? I should hope so. Nova Roma means that
much to me, and I should hope it means that much to others.

Optime Valete in Civitate,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7599 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-topic)
I spent the morning in a daze; functioning, but not really here. Every
once in a while I would turn on the radio only to hear the pundits
pontificating without any hard data (someone actually brought up
"shoulder-fired missiles"...) and turn it off again. They were gone, and
no amount of investigation, oratory, or grief would bring them back. I
felt like I had lost close friends. Friends who had climbed into the sky
on that pillar of fire and shared that triumph with all of us so that I,
among others, could say "*WE* have been out there - again!"

I had watched the Columbia lift off from Daytona Beach, Florida - my
friends, with whom I was driving down to KSC, had been late, and we
couldn't make it there for the launch. We pulled off onto the causeway a
few minutes before the scheduled time and watched the takeoff, the
brilliant ball of fire rising into the blue Florida sky, heard the
roar... and she was gone. Technology at the level of magic, fairly tales
become true; we had done it yet again, we humans. That light, that sound
would eventually penetrate to the most remote corner of the earth,
affect every person on this planet - even if they didn't know it today.


High Flight

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew.
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
-- John Gillespie McGee Jr.


To me, space is the /sine qua non/ of survival for the human race. If -
*when* - we make it out there, plant ourselves on a few other worlds,
establish self-supporting colonies, we will have attained our majority
by the ultimate test the universe has to offer: survival. No nuclear
war, no dinosaur-killer meteor will be enough to stop us; our sons and
daughters will expand into the universe, will grow to face much bigger
challenges, ask greater questions, reach unimaginably greater heights.

We pay the cost of pioneering with heart-breaking effort, with the best
of everything at our disposal... with our very blood and bones. This is
the cost of facing the unknown - and we pay it, and keep on paying it,
because we *must* grow or perish. We will mourn these seven brave people
- but we will go on. Their deaths are a tragedy - but to stop, to
abandon the effort in which they died would be a greater tragedy.


+ Commander Rick D. Husband
+ Pilot William C. McCool
+ Payload Specialist Michael P. Anderson
+ Mission Specialist Kalpana Chawla
+ Mission Specialist David M. Brown
+ Mission Specialist Laurel B. Clark
+ Payload Specialist Ilan Ramon, Israel


Farewell, dear friends.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nam et ipsa scientia potestas es.
Knowledge is power.
-- Sir Francis Bacon
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7600 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7601 From: William Cornett Polanco Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma and am immensely pleased at the prospect of being able to learn more about the culture that was the basis of the modern Western World. There is a definite distinction between the Patrician and Plebian, but most chose our Gens and knew of this. There were class distinctions during the Republic and the Empire. We as citizens of Nova Roma are unique in that we have been born into a modern world with modern ideals...that is a fact! Of course none of us are going to have slaves, crucify people (although there are some horrid people that do deserve to be crucified :-) !) etc. There must be some cohesive plan. There is no question of this. We have chosen this path to take and therefore accepting the structure of the Republican Era is quite normal. I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this. Whether Plebian or Patrician there are still are social structures involved in both. Rome consisted of these levels of soceity, thinking, and culture. That was their way and I am quite sure a lot of people who have "willingly" become citizens of Nova Roma knew of this and have "willingly" spent their lives admiring such a culture. It is OUR right as citizens of Nova Roma to ensure that we do not inflict misfortune on anyone! The social distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different levels in society as it is. Traditions should be kept. Because we live in a different era 2,000 years after the Republic we possess quite different views. Let us not forget that we are glorifying a wondrous era, one also filled with death, injustice, corruption but one also filled with beauty, magnificence, and inspiration that has joined us together as ONE in Nova Roma. I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a Plebian Gens. We are all brothers and sisters unified for a common cause: the Glory of Rome! Let us first organize ourselve through learning all that is Rome! What an immense joy it would be for all of us to be able communicate perfectly in Latin to each other! Ahh...one can only dream..and I dream about Rome!

Sextus Iulius Serranus
qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7602 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Fellow Citizens:

Right before the elections last year there was much discussion of the idea of
localized groups within Nova Roma. Call them what you will, but it is my
opinion that the establishment of local, organized, groups of Nova Roma
citizens is paramount to the survival and future of this micronation. Right
now we are essentially an on-line community, but that needs to change for us
to move onto the "next level."

We COULD argue on and on how a local group should be established, governed,
etc... We could debate historical accuracy and time periods. But I would
propose that we NOT do that to the point of stifling the issue. I can assure
everyone that I am not a citizen of Nova Roma to engage in historical role
playing. I am in Nova Roma because of a love of the Religio, and Roman
Culture. We need local groups established, and chartered by the senate that
are going to meet the needs of our citizens (and not simply the needs of some
historical authenticity).

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7603 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve Sextus Iulius Serranus,

> I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
Welcome! You're lucky to be in Gens Iulia with an angel for a Materfamilias,
Iulia Vopisca! In fact, if I could go back in time, I would have requested
to join Gens Iulia in 1999, not because it is a patrician gens, but because
of the Iulian's relationship to Venus.

lots of snips in accordance with our list guidelines :-) :
>I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this.
>The social <distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different
levels in society as it is. ><Traditions should be kept.
>I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a
Plebian Gens.

I've snipped a lot for brevity's sake, but I agree with you.
I can understand why citizens wouldn't want NR to be an exact replica of
Rome, complete with slavery, prostitution and tenements but I like the idea
of Patricians and Plebeians in NR. Nova Roma would seem very un-Roman like
if we got rid of our 'class' system, even though in reality it is pretty
much in name only.

And if we got rid of the classes, we would have to change the way our
government worked and so forth. Once we start eliminating the Roman
Traditions that are currently in place, it could eventually lead us to a
Nova Roma that has no resemblance to ancient Rome besides us using Roman
names....

So let's keep our Roman traditions alive--I thought that's why we are all
here?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7604 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Maximus

How so?


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7605 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Serranus

So I take it you agree with the plan aspect of Quo Vadis? Great! The Quo Vadis Plan.

Funny, all the patricians weighing in on the subject. Arguments such as "the project is useless without class divisions" and "I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a Plebian Gens". Lame arguments.

What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall of money to us? And he wants to start his own family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir. Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks for the cash"?

You know, it would be even more realistic if we restricted the activities of women. Think how cool it would be if they weren't allowed to post here, and had to act like demure, chaste Roman urban matrons? A Man's Republic for Men.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Cornett Polanco
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?



I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma and am immensely pleased at the prospect of being able to learn more about the culture that was the basis of the modern Western World. There is a definite distinction between the Patrician and Plebian, but most chose our Gens and knew of this. There were class distinctions during the Republic and the Empire. We as citizens of Nova Roma are unique in that we have been born into a modern world with modern ideals...that is a fact! Of course none of us are going to have slaves, crucify people (although there are some horrid people that do deserve to be crucified :-) !) etc. There must be some cohesive plan. There is no question of this. We have chosen this path to take and therefore accepting the structure of the Republican Era is quite normal. I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this. Whether Plebian or Patrician there are still are social structures involved in both. Rome consisted of these levels of soceity, thinking, and culture. That was their way and I am quite sure a lot of people who have "willingly" become citizens of Nova Roma knew of this and have "willingly" spent their lives admiring such a culture. It is OUR right as citizens of Nova Roma to ensure that we do not inflict misfortune on anyone! The social distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different levels in society as it is. Traditions should be kept. Because we live in a different era 2,000 years after the Republic we possess quite different views. Let us not forget that we are glorifying a wondrous era, one also filled with death, injustice, corruption but one also filled with beauty, magnificence, and inspiration that has joined us together as ONE in Nova Roma. I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a Plebian Gens. We are all brothers and sisters unified for a common cause: the Glory of Rome! Let us first organize ourselve through learning all that is Rome! What an immense joy it would be for all of us to be able communicate perfectly in Latin to each other! Ahh...one can only dream..and I dream about Rome!

Sextus Iulius Serranus
qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7606 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Ave Anathsios

It sounds good in concept. What are the specifics of your plan? What would you call these groups?
Don't we already have "governors" or "legates" or "Propraetors"

As far as I can tell, my propraetor does nothing. Maybe its just a matter of making the present system work by voting.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 5:34 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)


Fellow Citizens:

Right before the elections last year there was much discussion of the idea of
localized groups within Nova Roma. Call them what you will, but it is my
opinion that the establishment of local, organized, groups of Nova Roma
citizens is paramount to the survival and future of this micronation. Right
now we are essentially an on-line community, but that needs to change for us
to move onto the "next level."

We COULD argue on and on how a local group should be established, governed,
etc... We could debate historical accuracy and time periods. But I would
propose that we NOT do that to the point of stifling the issue. I can assure
everyone that I am not a citizen of Nova Roma to engage in historical role
playing. I am in Nova Roma because of a love of the Religio, and Roman
Culture. We need local groups established, and chartered by the senate that
are going to meet the needs of our citizens (and not simply the needs of some
historical authenticity).

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7607 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Tribune

I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures, and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe.

In America, you can be a garbage man one day, a multi-millionaire the next, and then the NEXT day be homeless on the streets. We don't limit a person by their birth or family. We judge them by merit. What they can produce. One can move between the "classes" so easily that we simply have no use for the concept, except for tax purposes. Our top general and Secretary of State, Colin Powell, is a second generation American from a dirt poor immigrant Jamaican family. But I consider him, if anything, of the highest "patrician" class. Not because of his name. Because he earned it. With real life hard work over an entire lifetime. He didn't start a website. He didn't change his name or get adopted into a rich family. That is why I find the concept of being "patrician" because you were first or you joined the right family to be so odious

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 6:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve Sextus Iulius Serranus,

> I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
Welcome! You're lucky to be in Gens Iulia with an angel for a Materfamilias,
Iulia Vopisca! In fact, if I could go back in time, I would have requested
to join Gens Iulia in 1999, not because it is a patrician gens, but because
of the Iulian's relationship to Venus.

lots of snips in accordance with our list guidelines :-) :
>I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this.
>The social <distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different
levels in society as it is. ><Traditions should be kept.
>I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a
Plebian Gens.

I've snipped a lot for brevity's sake, but I agree with you.
I can understand why citizens wouldn't want NR to be an exact replica of
Rome, complete with slavery, prostitution and tenements but I like the idea
of Patricians and Plebeians in NR. Nova Roma would seem very un-Roman like
if we got rid of our 'class' system, even though in reality it is pretty
much in name only.

And if we got rid of the classes, we would have to change the way our
government worked and so forth. Once we start eliminating the Roman
Traditions that are currently in place, it could eventually lead us to a
Nova Roma that has no resemblance to ancient Rome besides us using Roman
names....

So let's keep our Roman traditions alive--I thought that's why we are all
here?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7608 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
In a message dated 2/2/2003 9:59:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:

> What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall of money to us? And he
> wants to start his own family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks for the cash"?

I agree with the need for goal setting. However, I don't link the need for
goal setting with a need to do away with Plebeian and Patrician status. I
used to be a Patrician, but opted to form my own Gens and continue as a Pleb.
I feel it has done nothing to harm me in any way. As a matter of fact, I
prefer being a Pleb.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7609 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
I prefer being a pleb, also. I admire, historically, those men who were plebs are fought for the plebeian cause. The patricians ran the Republic into the ground.

If the patricians want to keep their status, thats fine. Its a minor point that can be dealt with later.

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


In a message dated 2/2/2003 9:59:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:

> What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall of money to us? And he
> wants to start his own family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks for the cash"?

I agree with the need for goal setting. However, I don't link the need for
goal setting with a need to do away with Plebeian and Patrician status. I
used to be a Patrician, but opted to form my own Gens and continue as a Pleb.
I feel it has done nothing to harm me in any way. As a matter of fact, I
prefer being a Pleb.

G. Modius Athanasius


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7610 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Open Positions in America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Salvete Omnes,
I am again asking for Citizens in the Province who be
interested in serving the Province to contact me by private
e-mail. The following positions are open:

Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
Legate Major, Regio Silvestris(MN, IA, ND, SD)
Legate Major, Regio Montanus(MT, WY)
Provincial Military Legate

Each Legate Major will be able to appoint a Legate Minor for each state in
order to administer each Regio.
For more info on the Duties of the Legate Major go to
http://PropraetorAMS.blogspot.com and review Edictum
#5. Due lack of use and interest the Provincial Yahoogroups list has been
deleted. If enough interest
is generated I will restart the list. Please let me know
you are interested and the positions or starting up the
Provincial Maillist again.

Vale,

Sextus Cornelius Cotta

Propraetor
America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7611 From: A. Hirtius Helveticus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Absence
Salvete Quirites!

Due to my annual air force reserve training, I will be
away from Feb. 3rd until 22nd. Therefore, I won't be
able to serve as Rogator during that period. My fellow
rogatores are informed.

Just to let you, my fellow citizens, know.

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

__________________________________________________________________

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
Bis zu 100 MB Speicher bei http://premiummail.yahoo.de
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7612 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve,Caie!

As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of the
United States. If we long for the construction of Nova Roma, we will have to
consider not to take too many modern thoughts into it. They are "unroman". We
cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking what
we like and leaving behind what we don't like. One of our main goals is the
reinstitution of the romanitas. We will have to change our minds a little to
reach that. In fact, not only a little.

Vale,

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tribune

I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from
France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures,
and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe.

In America, you can be a garbage man one day, a multi-millionaire the next,
and then the NEXT day be homeless on the streets. We don't limit a person by
their birth or family. We judge them by merit. What they can produce. One can
move between the "classes" so easily that we simply have no use for the
concept, except for tax purposes. Our top general and Secretary of State, Colin
Powell, is a second generation American from a dirt poor immigrant Jamaican
family. But I consider him, if anything, of the highest "patrician" class. Not
because of his name. Because he earned it. With real life hard work over an
entire lifetime. He didn't start a website. He didn't change his name or get
adopted into a rich family. That is why I find the concept of being
"patrician" because you were first or you joined the right family to be so odious

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7613 From: Chantal G. Whittington Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: "Seven Are Gone"
Pipar--I am linking to your poem from my Livejournal.
That was beautiful!

---
Renata Corva
http://aerden.livejournal.com

=====
Chantal
http://www.theranweyr.org

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7614 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve,
>>I prefer being a pleb, also. I admire, historically, those men who were
plebs are fought for the plebeian cause. The patricians ran the Republic into
the ground.<<

As a historian I have to say that it seems to me that you don't know very
much about how rome was ruled and what the role of the "plebeians" was, for
example like the Gracchi. I would suggest that you read Syme before making more
of these "historically" statements.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7615 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically" statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve,
>>I prefer being a pleb, also. I admire, historically, those men who were
plebs are fought for the plebeian cause. The patricians ran the Republic into
the ground.<<

As a historian I have to say that it seems to me that you don't know very
much about how rome was ruled and what the role of the "plebeians" was, for
example like the Gracchi. I would suggest that you read Syme before making more
of these "historically" statements.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7616 From: M. Octavius Solaris Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve Gai Basilicate,
<< I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures, and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe. >>

Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States herself, by the way (but has Italian roots).

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7617 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Welcome to Sextus Iulius (Quo Vadis?)
Salve Sextus Iulius!

> > I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
> Welcome!

I'd like to welcome you, too, my friend. It's good to see you here
at last!

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7618 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Saturninus!

"As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of theUnited States."

I never suggested that. However, we need to take into account the sensibilities of the citizens of our Macronations.

"We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."

Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in some way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class distinction, so dear to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing privilege.

"We will have to change our minds a little to reach that. In fact, not only a little"

Perhaps. But I will continue to use soap and toliet paper. Nobody else's ass-sponge is coming near my butt.

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve,Caie!

As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of the
United States. If we long for the construction of Nova Roma, we will have to
consider not to take too many modern thoughts into it. They are "unroman". We
cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking what
we like and leaving behind what we don't like. One of our main goals is the
reinstitution of the romanitas. We will have to change our minds a little to
reach that. In fact, not only a little.

Vale,

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tribune

I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from
France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures,
and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe.

In America, you can be a garbage man one day, a multi-millionaire the next,
and then the NEXT day be homeless on the streets. We don't limit a person by
their birth or family. We judge them by merit. What they can produce. One can
move between the "classes" so easily that we simply have no use for the
concept, except for tax purposes. Our top general and Secretary of State, Colin
Powell, is a second generation American from a dirt poor immigrant Jamaican
family. But I consider him, if anything, of the highest "patrician" class. Not
because of his name. Because he earned it. With real life hard work over an
entire lifetime. He didn't start a website. He didn't change his name or get
adopted into a rich family. That is why I find the concept of being
"patrician" because you were first or you joined the right family to be so odious

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7619 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Solaris

Oh.

We still need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis



Salve Gai Basilicate,
<< I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures, and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe. >>

Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States herself, by the way (but has Italian roots).

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7620 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve,
I did not intend to insult you. I simply have the impression that you are
overidealizing rome. It is great that you have the ability to interpret ptimary
sources (which, by the way?) and that you are able to prove all historians
that wrote after Syme about these topics wrong in one sentence. I wish I had
that ability. By the way, I am quite sure that you are proud about your
degree, but I always have the impression that a degree does not say anything about
one's abilities. Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigend/ruled and who those
people were that did it?

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and
Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is
a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to
read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically"
statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7621 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve,


"As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of
theUnited States."

I never suggested that. However, we need to take into account the
sensibilities of the citizens of our Macronations.

>>>And who is the one that speaks for them? You? Let them speak for
themselves, If they are concerned.

"We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking
what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."

Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in some
way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class distinction, so dear
to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing privilege.

>>> Because that's the way things are in life. And were in ancient rome.
There are everywhere people that are more priviledged than others. At least
through their posessions. Rich/poor, you understand? Sounds to me like a
communist-revolution you want to start here... :)

"We will have to change our minds a little to reach that. In fact, not only
a little"

Perhaps. But I will continue to use soap and toliet paper. Nobody else's
ass-sponge is coming near my butt.

>>> Oh, of course you will. Great Argument.

And we need a plan.


>>>Why? For what? And if we need one, provide one and the community will
discuss it.


Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.


P.S.: "class" is a economic term from Karl Marx. With all your degrees you
should actually know that it does not make sense to use it for ancient rome or
even Nova Roma.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7622 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve Gaius Basilicatus,

First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of having
a city where our citizens can live. Our goal is
similar to what the Catholic Church realized in 1929,
a small administrative forum that is the focus of the
Religio and our culture. We wish to aquire at least
108 acres for this purpose. Once we aquire this land
it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
living quaters for those who want to relocate to the
forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair to
expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
realize that dream.

The Catholic Church has never had a goal of having
large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
The Vatican is the administrative center for Catholics
living all over the world. Our goal is to achive the
same status, an administrative center, not an
independant city.

Since we have citizens who wish to aquire land near
the forum, I have sugested that we attempt to aquire a
much larger plot of land than we need for the forum. I
Have sugested that we aquire 1000 acres, set aside 200
for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in one
acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
the purchase. This will require a higher inital
outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
the treasury that can be used to start construction.
One thing has to be made clear though. These plots
will not be part of a city of Nova Roma. They will be
like owning land in the city of Roma near the Vatican,
they will remain under the control of some modern
nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.

As for the orders, they are needed to maintain the
ancient system of government, and there are some
offices in the Religio that are only open to
Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is not
only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
reason Nova Roma was founded.

As for publications, Nova Roma has sponsered an
offical publication, the Eagle and sponsers some mail
lists. Nova Roma inc. is responsible for any finical
and/or legal obligations stemming from these services,
and as long as Nova Roma inc. holds theese
responsibilites she has to maintain some control over
them. Citizens are free to start new mail lists or a
new newsletter if they wish to assume full
resonsibility for any costs involved in maintaining
them.

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@...>
wrote:
> Ave Senatus Populusque Romanus:
>
> I spend a lot of time with Nova Roma. My free time.
> I've pledged not insignificant amounts of money to
> it also. Reading through an average of 30 e-mails a
> day. I am dedicated to the idea of Nova Roma, and
> like many of my fellow citizens dream of a day, in
> my lifetime, when I can walk down the streets of a
> Nova Roman city. However, I feel that under the
> current leadership that this dream will not be
> realized.
>
> For what Nova Roma is now, the leadership is fine.
> But for a group of people who, for the most part,
> have never had any face to face contact, how on
> earth do we have 66 laws? Innumerable Senatus
> Consultums? Endless petty debates about meaningless
> nothings by e-mail. If this is to be a real world
> project, I want to see some real world action.
>
> What does that mean? That means we need a plan. A
> realistic plan. A plan that involves significant
> amounts of fund raising. A long term outlook. Long
> term goals with short term ideas to implement those
> long term goals. A five year plan with goals to be
> met. A three year plan with goals to be met. A one
> year plan with goals to be met.
>
> And I want proven leaders to head up those goals. I
> want the goals to be realistic. Here's an example. I
> was given the task of "rating" North America's
> suitability for land purchase to eventually be
> turned into our sovereign nation. Part of the rating
> included infrastructure, water, education, taxes,
> etc. I was to give each category a rating between
> one and ten. Now, North America includes Canada,
> Mexico, and the 48 contiguous states of the US. Each
> one as different as apple pie and pizza. Not to
> mention the troublesome fact that America, Canada,
> and Mexico will never, ever, never, ever, never,
> ever ever ever let a sovereign nation exist on their
> soil. While the project was well thought out in and
> of itself, it was patently unrealistic.
>
> So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is
> for a plan. A 5-3-1 year plan. I want our goals and
> our society to be realistic. This class division of
> patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the
> Republic. I want a vote on the issue: The abolition
> of class division. As I was reminded today, 2000
> plus years have passed since the Republic existed.
> Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it
> diabolically ironic that we divide ourselves, on
> purpose, into classes.
>
> Our publications should be free from Senatorial
> supervision and funding. Government has no business
> in regulating, on any level, the media. While those
> in some European countries would disagree, well,
> trust me, its better not to have your government
> regulating your media. I want a vote on that issue.
>
> And we need a plan.
>
> Appoint a commission. Do what you do. Give us plan.
> Show us the way. Lead us.
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The LaSalle Law Office
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is
> attorney privileged and confidential information
> intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity named. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
> responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
> you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please immediately notify
> the sender by using the contact information in the
> "reply to" field above and return the original
> message to the sender. Thank you.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7623 From: H Minucia Caesar Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Avete Basilicate et Omnes.

I apologise for my long-windedness in advance, but I have a lot on my
mind after having read the Quo Vadis posts.

Go ahead, restrict the role of women in order to resurrect Roma Vera.
However, you might alienate more than a few of the feminae illustriae
in our country. They are so numerous I cannot list them all and tell
you their individiual merits, but seeing as how you spend so much
time here, then you know who they are and why they are so good for
Nova Roma. Alienate the women, products of the modern world who have
come here and taken up positions at the ropes which pull this state
along, and you may very well have a Men's Republic for Men, and Of
Men Only Populated. Because I do not think they would tolerate such
abuse by staying. If one cannot suffer the "inane insults" of others,
then they shouldn't be expected to do so either.

We read the website and the Constitution before we join (I hope), and
I at least spent a day or two thinking of which gens I wanted to
apply for. I had an equal number of Plebian and Patrician gens on my
list. The deciding factor was not whether Patrician or Plebian, as I
saw in Nova Roma that didn't seem to matter in how individuals were
treated or respected, but what gods each Gens held dear and
subsequently what it seemed they valued, and the Gens Minucia fit
perfectly with my own self.

Under the stern but loving gaze of Minerva I have made my way in this
world before ever I found Nova Roma; her brothers, Mars and Mithras,
are the gods of those soldiers who carried Old Rome on their backs
across the Continent and over waters which, with the blessings of
Oceanus, they crossed without fail; and when the battles ended, they
more often then not turned to Bacchus for relief from the gravities
of war and the horrific carnage on the field. And if we do not turn
to wine all the time, then at least we take a page from his book and
try to start laughing again when the tears are all spent.

I am proud to be a Minucia not because it is a Patrician family, but
because our Paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens is an intelligent,
fair, respectable, and respected man. Before we had been conversing
long, he welcomed me into the state with great enthusiasm, and he has
reassured me more than once that "This too shall pass" when a
particularly nasty argument on the message board upset me. I am also
looking forward to meeting Gaius Minucius Hadrianus before too long,
as we will both be attending gallery talks at the MFA in Boston soon.
From what I have seen of them and of my other brothers and sisters in
the Gens Minucia who were involved in Nova Roma before my arrival, I
am not only proud to be a Minucia, but I am honoured. I can only hope
that I won't be an embarrassment to them when they've actually met me.

If we all promise that Plebians in the homestead of Nova Roma will be
treated according to their merit as citizens and not according to
their (may I remind us all) CHOSEN "class" (once again I use that
word loosely), and that the Plebians will not be given the short end
of the stick in any way shape or form, may we leave off this going-
nowhere discussion and continue on with the Quo Vadis Project (I do
like that name, though)? To tell you the truth, I do not have the
allotment of Gentes committed to memory, and when I read the name of
a citizen on the board I do not know whether they are Patrician or
Plebian at a glance, unless the name is historically obvious or
personally familiar. To me, the difference between the two "classes",
if there exacts any in practice at all, is negligible.

We need lots of plans, and if you are interested in a certain one
then I suggest that those most intrigued get moving and start coming
up with ideas and the skeleton for what should be included in the 5-3-
1 plan. Seeing as how I am neither a student nor a lover of
governmental or public works workings, then I believe I shall sit
this one out until a component of it comes along to which I may give
my talent and my all. For instance, I think any physical Nova Roma
needs a library or a museum, or both, and when we start
theorhetically building those I will start raising my hand a little
more often. When I am not at university anymore and may more
completely devote myself to the state, I am thinking of persuing a
position in one of the Temples. But I will not do the state or the
gods any injustices by committing myself to more than I can handle at
the moment I commit myself. Until then, I will content myself on the
sidelines, where I will be out of everyone else's way.

And now, I take myself back to the sandwich that I left off making to
come and post.

Horatia Minucia Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7624 From: H Minucia Caesar Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Slight amendment is due to my already long post. One realises in
retrospect that it is unwise to work at a computer when one's glasses
are not on or contacts are not in. The great Bacchus, Father of
Mirth, is not a patron god of the Minuciae, but has the good fortune
to be held by the Modiae, the Gens which follows us alphabetically.

HMC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7625 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:36:09AM -0600, James LaSalle wrote:
>
> "We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only
> picking what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."
>
> Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in
> some way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class
> distinction, so dear to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing
> privilege.

What privilege, exactly, are you imagining here? You seem to have some
skewed picture of what patrician and plebeian means here in Nova Roma,
and are stumping on this issue to promote your own ends - unrelated as
they may be to the point. If you believe that the way to promote your
goals is to continually attack a large part of the Nova Roman society, I
suggest you do a bit of rethinking.

> And we need a plan.

You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you
don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become tedious.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nil desperandum!
Never despair!
-- Horace, "Carmina"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7626 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Scaevola!

I'll drop the issue about class distinctions. You win.

Now, to your personal insults.

"You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become tedious"

So your saying we don't need a plan? Thanks for your input. Its good to know where you stand. As far as being comparable to Cato, I never said I was. You know nothing about me. You don't know my experiences, my accomplishments, and where I come from. Therefore, your every utterance on the subject is an admission of your ignorance.

I never liked Cato, anyway.

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:36:09AM -0600, James LaSalle wrote:
>
> "We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only
> picking what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."
>
> Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in
> some way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class
> distinction, so dear to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing
> privilege.

What privilege, exactly, are you imagining here? You seem to have some
skewed picture of what patrician and plebeian means here in Nova Roma,
and are stumping on this issue to promote your own ends - unrelated as
they may be to the point. If you believe that the way to promote your
goals is to continually attack a large part of the Nova Roman society, I
suggest you do a bit of rethinking.

> And we need a plan.

You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you
don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become tedious.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nil desperandum!
Never despair!
-- Horace, "Carmina"

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7627 From: William Cornett Polanco Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Diana Moravia Aventina and citizens of Nova Roma!
Thank you so much for welcoming me to Nova Roma! This is just the beginnina of a wonderful experience! What I wrote yesterday is simply how I feel. I am not formally educated in Classical Studies. I have only studied on my own. I don't think it takes a degree to know how what you believe in. I joined the Gens Iulia because of my admiration of Julius Caesar. You are right, my Materfamilias is wonderful. I am very lucky. If we were to strictly adhere to tradition (and tradition is something I believe in) then I would have a Paterfamilias, but I agree there have to be some modifications, although minor. I have read the comments on the differences between those of us residing in America and Europe. How funny. If I wanted to become a part of a "New America" I would have joined such a group. I have chosen to become a part of Nova Roma instead. Like you, I have lived in America and Europe (not to mention Latin America!) and have been priviledged to have been exposed to different cultures. I must admit that the last time I looked on a map I found Rome to be in Europe :-)! I must admit that I do like all the opinions I have read. My mind has not been so stimulated in years! Once again I have to say that let us all begin our journey on the path to a Nova Roma by educating ourselves more on the subject (no offense to those already formally educated in this already) and unite in this manner. I for one would like to see Latin reinstated as a living language! I can't wait to begin. Diana Moravia Aventina you are a wonder! I can understand why Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia chose to be in your in Gens. As a matter of fact she was the first person I came in contact with even before I was accepted to Nova Roma. i will always be grateful to her for that. I have met others here from America to Spain can say that these citizens of Nova Roma are truly a special group of people! Take care and I look forward to corresponding with you again.

Sextus Iulius Serranus
Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@...> wrote:Salve Sextus Iulius Serranus,

> I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
Welcome! You're lucky to be in Gens Iulia with an angel for a Materfamilias,
Iulia Vopisca! In fact, if I could go back in time, I would have requested
to join Gens Iulia in 1999, not because it is a patrician gens, but because
of the Iulian's relationship to Venus.

lots of snips in accordance with our list guidelines :-) :
>I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this.
>The social <distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different
levels in society as it is. ><Traditions should be kept.
>I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a
Plebian Gens.

I've snipped a lot for brevity's sake, but I agree with you.
I can understand why citizens wouldn't want NR to be an exact replica of
Rome, complete with slavery, prostitution and tenements but I like the idea
of Patricians and Plebeians in NR. Nova Roma would seem very un-Roman like
if we got rid of our 'class' system, even though in reality it is pretty
much in name only.

And if we got rid of the classes, we would have to change the way our
government worked and so forth. Once we start eliminating the Roman
Traditions that are currently in place, it could eventually lead us to a
Nova Roma that has no resemblance to ancient Rome besides us using Roman
names....

So let's keep our Roman traditions alive--I thought that's why we are all
here?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7628 From: Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: From a new Citizen...
Ave Fratres Cives!

I'm a new Citizen from Italy, Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar, and I'd like to thank you all and explain my happiness becaming one of your great and wonderful community!!
In my life I always be interested in roman culture and history, including all the arts like music, painting, buildings and military and recently i found also cookery in roman style....
I hope i can give all my experience and goodwill to "my Community" that I fell like mine...
"Roma Caput Mundi" wasnt' only a phrase... was a way of thinking against the darkness of ignorance of the ancient world...

Thank you all my fellows!!!

Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7629 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...> >
>And we need a plan.

Salve,

Do you have a plan or all you bringing to the table of Nova Roma is
cream of carping criticism?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7630 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Caesar!

Great response. Not long winded at all and very insightful. I think its funny, however, how vitriolic some patricians' arguments become defend their class standing.

I shouldn't have put it in the quo vadis post. It detracted from my main point which is:

We need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?


Avete Basilicate et Omnes.

I apologise for my long-windedness in advance, but I have a lot on my
mind after having read the Quo Vadis posts.

Go ahead, restrict the role of women in order to resurrect Roma Vera.
However, you might alienate more than a few of the feminae illustriae
in our country. They are so numerous I cannot list them all and tell
you their individiual merits, but seeing as how you spend so much
time here, then you know who they are and why they are so good for
Nova Roma. Alienate the women, products of the modern world who have
come here and taken up positions at the ropes which pull this state
along, and you may very well have a Men's Republic for Men, and Of
Men Only Populated. Because I do not think they would tolerate such
abuse by staying. If one cannot suffer the "inane insults" of others,
then they shouldn't be expected to do so either.

We read the website and the Constitution before we join (I hope), and
I at least spent a day or two thinking of which gens I wanted to
apply for. I had an equal number of Plebian and Patrician gens on my
list. The deciding factor was not whether Patrician or Plebian, as I
saw in Nova Roma that didn't seem to matter in how individuals were
treated or respected, but what gods each Gens held dear and
subsequently what it seemed they valued, and the Gens Minucia fit
perfectly with my own self.

Under the stern but loving gaze of Minerva I have made my way in this
world before ever I found Nova Roma; her brothers, Mars and Mithras,
are the gods of those soldiers who carried Old Rome on their backs
across the Continent and over waters which, with the blessings of
Oceanus, they crossed without fail; and when the battles ended, they
more often then not turned to Bacchus for relief from the gravities
of war and the horrific carnage on the field. And if we do not turn
to wine all the time, then at least we take a page from his book and
try to start laughing again when the tears are all spent.

I am proud to be a Minucia not because it is a Patrician family, but
because our Paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens is an intelligent,
fair, respectable, and respected man. Before we had been conversing
long, he welcomed me into the state with great enthusiasm, and he has
reassured me more than once that "This too shall pass" when a
particularly nasty argument on the message board upset me. I am also
looking forward to meeting Gaius Minucius Hadrianus before too long,
as we will both be attending gallery talks at the MFA in Boston soon.
From what I have seen of them and of my other brothers and sisters in
the Gens Minucia who were involved in Nova Roma before my arrival, I
am not only proud to be a Minucia, but I am honoured. I can only hope
that I won't be an embarrassment to them when they've actually met me.

If we all promise that Plebians in the homestead of Nova Roma will be
treated according to their merit as citizens and not according to
their (may I remind us all) CHOSEN "class" (once again I use that
word loosely), and that the Plebians will not be given the short end
of the stick in any way shape or form, may we leave off this going-
nowhere discussion and continue on with the Quo Vadis Project (I do
like that name, though)? To tell you the truth, I do not have the
allotment of Gentes committed to memory, and when I read the name of
a citizen on the board I do not know whether they are Patrician or
Plebian at a glance, unless the name is historically obvious or
personally familiar. To me, the difference between the two "classes",
if there exacts any in practice at all, is negligible.

We need lots of plans, and if you are interested in a certain one
then I suggest that those most intrigued get moving and start coming
up with ideas and the skeleton for what should be included in the 5-3-
1 plan. Seeing as how I am neither a student nor a lover of
governmental or public works workings, then I believe I shall sit
this one out until a component of it comes along to which I may give
my talent and my all. For instance, I think any physical Nova Roma
needs a library or a museum, or both, and when we start
theorhetically building those I will start raising my hand a little
more often. When I am not at university anymore and may more
completely devote myself to the state, I am thinking of persuing a
position in one of the Temples. But I will not do the state or the
gods any injustices by committing myself to more than I can handle at
the moment I commit myself. Until then, I will content myself on the
sidelines, where I will be out of everyone else's way.

And now, I take myself back to the sandwich that I left off making to
come and post.

Horatia Minucia Caesar


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7631 From: Chantal G. Whittington Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Quo Vadis?
Sovete omnes--

Someone said:

What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall
of money to us? And he > wants to start his own
family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks
for the cash?"

Renata replies:

I don't see what would be the problem with that.
Anyone who troubles to read the website presumably
understands that only the first 30 gentes of Nova Roma
are considered 'patrician.'

Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.

Anyone who would expect to become a patrician by dint
of donating money is frankly not the sort of person I
would want in Nova Roma.

---
Renata Corva
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7632 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave.

If you don't think you're insulting me, then English must be a second language for you.

I don't want to debate whether or not the patricians were at fault for the fall of the Republic. Forget I ever said it. If you're happy with the way things are, great. See you for the grand opening of downtown Nova Roma around 2406 AD.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve,
I did not intend to insult you. I simply have the impression that you are
overidealizing rome. It is great that you have the ability to interpret ptimary
sources (which, by the way?) and that you are able to prove all historians
that wrote after Syme about these topics wrong in one sentence. I wish I had
that ability. By the way, I am quite sure that you are proud about your
degree, but I always have the impression that a degree does not say anything about
one's abilities. Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigend/ruled and who those
people were that did it?

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and
Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is
a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to
read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically"
statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7633 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
and we need a plan


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve,
I did not intend to insult you. I simply have the impression that you are
overidealizing rome. It is great that you have the ability to interpret ptimary
sources (which, by the way?) and that you are able to prove all historians
that wrote after Syme about these topics wrong in one sentence. I wish I had
that ability. By the way, I am quite sure that you are proud about your
degree, but I always have the impression that a degree does not say anything about
one's abilities. Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigend/ruled and who those
people were that did it?

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and
Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is
a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to
read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically"
statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


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NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7634 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Calvus:

Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you happy to be stuck in our present quagmire of mediocrity?

If I seem like I'm criticizing, I apologize. All I ask for is a consensus on the need for a plan. Is that too difficult to comprehend? Does asking for leadership from our leaders a point to get angry about? If it is, this project is still-born.

This is depressing.

And we need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus (Big Tuna) Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:09 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...> >
>And we need a plan.

Salve,

Do you have a plan or all you bringing to the table of Nova Roma is
cream of carping criticism?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7635 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 02:02:51PM -0600, James LaSalle wrote:
> Ave Scaevola!

Ave, Agricola -

> I'll drop the issue about class distinctions. You win.
>
> Now, to your personal insults.

If you see the truth as an insult, you're often going to be insulted.

> "You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you
> don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become
> tedious"
>
> So your saying we don't need a plan? Thanks for your input.

I don't consider the disjointed mass of misinformation, ignorance,
rudeness, and personal attacks that you've presented here worthy of
input; therefore I gave none. Nova Roma has many plans; fortunately - at
least in my opinion - you have had no hand in the making of any of them.

> Its good
> to know where you stand.

You have not the slightest idea of where I stand; pretending that you do
does not make it true.

> As far as being comparable to Cato, I never
> said I was.

Neither has anyone else, I'd wager.

> You know nothing about me. You don't know my experiences,
> my accomplishments, and where I come from. Therefore, your every
> utterance on the subject is an admission of your ignorance.

Why would I care about you to that degree? What I see of you on this
list is what I'm responding to, and that does not seem worthy of
serious consideration, Roman pimps, your "plans", etc. included.

> I never liked Cato, anyway.

And yet, you attempt - unsuccessfully - to mimic him. Imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery; shall we add insincerity to your list of
publicly exposed traits?


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ridentem dicere verum, quid vetat?
What prohibits us to tell the truth laughing (through a joke)?
-- Horace, "Satirae"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7636 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave

You're right.

But we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Chantal G. Whittington
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Sovete omnes--

Someone said:

What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall
of money to us? And he > wants to start his own
family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks
for the cash?"

Renata replies:

I don't see what would be the problem with that.
Anyone who troubles to read the website presumably
understands that only the first 30 gentes of Nova Roma
are considered 'patrician.'

Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.

Anyone who would expect to become a patrician by dint
of donating money is frankly not the sort of person I
would want in Nova Roma.

---
Renata Corva

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7637 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Bacchus!


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?


Slight amendment is due to my already long post. One realises in
retrospect that it is unwise to work at a computer when one's glasses
are not on or contacts are not in. The great Bacchus, Father of
Mirth, is not a patron god of the Minuciae, but has the good fortune
to be held by the Modiae, the Gens which follows us alphabetically.

HMC


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7638 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Ave Calvus:
>
> Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you happy to be stuck in
our present quagmire of mediocrity?

Salve,

If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a quagmire of
mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to
the last public figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do
with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the buying of 2076
lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and hope to auction
them off later at a profit? Go out to flea markets and yard sales
hoping to find that missing Monet or some other priceless piece of
art long thought lost?

Remember this is a voluntary organization, if one is really unhappy
one can volunteer to leave.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7639 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Tarquitis

Your thinly veiled insults are always a delight to read.

"And who is the one that speaks for them? You? Let them speak for themselves, If they are concerned."

I guess I do speak for them. For the most part, only the patricians have got their panties in a bunch about losing their status. Man, just forget it. You guys deserve to be called "patricians". Enjoy.

"Because that's the way things are in life. And were in ancient rome. There are everywhere people that are more priviledged than others. At least through their posessions. Rich/poor, you understand? Sounds to me like a communist-revolution you want to start here... :)"

You mean there are poor people?!?! Some people have more than others? Are you sure about this? I thought my pro bono clients just chose to live in squalor because they were geneticaly predipoded to being derelicts, or they liked it. Hmm. I'll look into this further.

Communism. heh. What Nova Roma has now is more like communism than what I propose. What I propose is an equal starting point where those who want to achieve and serve will rise. A meritocracy. If your saying the Republic was perfect, and there is no way to improve upon it, then you underestimate, well, all of us. The patrician/plebeian division never struck me as a selling point for the Republic.

"Oh, of course you will. Great Argument."

Thanks. Just trying to lighten the mood. However, you'd be surprised at some of the radical ideas about the day to day reconstruction some of our founders hold.

The fantastical nature of our general dream here attracted me to Nova Roma. It just might become real. But I sometimes wondered: Would the kind of people who would be attracted to this dream lack the neccessary real life skills to pul it off? My answer is "no". Everyone I've met here is extraordinarily intelligent and talented. We just need a plan!!!

WE NEED A PLAN!!!




Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve,


"As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of
theUnited States."

I never suggested that. However, we need to take into account the
sensibilities of the citizens of our Macronations.

>>>And who is the one that speaks for them? You? Let them speak for
themselves, If they are concerned.

"We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking
what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."

Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in some
way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class distinction, so dear
to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing privilege.

>>> Because that's the way things are in life. And were in ancient rome.
There are everywhere people that are more priviledged than others. At least
through their posessions. Rich/poor, you understand? Sounds to me like a
communist-revolution you want to start here... :)

"We will have to change our minds a little to reach that. In fact, not only
a little"

Perhaps. But I will continue to use soap and toliet paper. Nobody else's
ass-sponge is coming near my butt.

>>> Oh, of course you will. Great Argument.

And we need a plan.


>>>Why? For what? And if we need one, provide one and the community will
discuss it.


Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.


P.S.: "class" is a economic term from Karl Marx. With all your degrees you
should actually know that it does not make sense to use it for ancient rome or
even Nova Roma.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7640 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Damn...
On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 08:20:08PM -0600, Pipar - Steven wrote:

Salve, Venator -

> Salus et Fortuna Omnes,
>
> Just got home from work, to the news of the shuttle Columbia and her crew...
>
> Damn...

You've brought tears to my eyes, friend Venator. Thank you for this
beauty in the midst of grief.

> In this regard, all will recall
> Darkness of day, brightness of death
> Better still is, bringing to mind
> Names they did build, Fame they did have


Cattle die, Kinsmen die, Cattle die, Kinsmen die,
You, yourself, shall likewise die, You, yourself, shall likewise die,
But word fame never dies But one thing that shall never die
For he who achieves it well. Are the stories of deeds well done.
-- The Song of Odin, AD 76-77


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mens agitat molem.
The mind moves the matter.
-- Vergil, "Aenis"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7641 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Ave Calvus:

"If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a quagmire of mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Alright. Nevermind. Forget I said anything.


When is the new "Gladiator" movie coming out?


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:59 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Ave Calvus:
>
> Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you happy to be stuck in
our present quagmire of mediocrity?

Salve,

If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a quagmire of
mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to
the last public figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do
with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the buying of 2076
lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and hope to auction
them off later at a profit? Go out to flea markets and yard sales
hoping to find that missing Monet or some other priceless piece of
art long thought lost?

Remember this is a voluntary organization, if one is really unhappy
one can volunteer to leave.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7642 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
--- "quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>"
<richmal@...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle"
> <jlasalle@k...>
> wrote:
> > Ave Calvus:
> >
> > Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you
> happy to be stuck in
> our present quagmire of mediocrity?
>
> Salve,
>
> If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a
> quagmire of
> mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The
> treasury according to
> the last public figures contains a whooping
> $2076.85. What can we do
> with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the
> buying of 2076
> lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and
> hope to auction
> them off later at a profit? Go out to flea markets
> and yard sales
> hoping to find that missing Monet or some other
> priceless piece of
> art long thought lost?
>
> Remember this is a voluntary organization, if one is
> really unhappy
> one can volunteer to leave.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus

I'll tell you one thing we couldn't do. Pay the taxes
and insurance costs involved in owning land. If
someone offered to give us 108 acres of land for a
forum today, we would have to turn that offer down
because we wouldn't be able to afford the taxes and
insurance.

A Plan?
One that got most of our citizens to pay thier taxes
would be a good start, because until that happens we
can't afford land, not even donated land.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7643 From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-Stoic)
Omnibus SPD
So glad to be back on this list after 1)vacation 2)a protrcated illness and
death in my family and 3)my e-mail acct being closed down and being cut off
from this list. It has taken MONTHS (since September of last year) to get
back here. Glad to see 95 msgs in my inbox, but none from Sodalitas
Militarum, has there been no activity there, or am I still not reactivated
there?

As per the tragedy in the sky, I am quite thrilled to see that Nova Romans
have been so touched, and that some Nova Romans seem quite intent on the
stars being the next region for humanity's conquest. I hope to see you all
at LaGrange point 5 some day.
G Cornelius Ahenobarbus

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7644 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
Savete Omnes:

According to Jungian personality types as related to the MBTI (Myers-
Briggs Type Indicator), ancient Rome was ESTJ as far as the
personality of a city goes--extroverted, sensing, thinking,
judging....that is practical, concrete, detailed, planning, factual,
methodical, organized, rational, judging, and mathematical in a
practical way. (Extroverted thinking focused on planning and
practical solutions).

The opposite type of personality was Athens, ENFP--extroverted,
intuitive, abstract, theoretical, introverted feeling in art and
music, expressive, probing, exploring, and focused on creativity in
art, philsophy, music, and mathematics. (In spite of what happened
to most scientists who went against introverted feeling of the
people)....ENFP is like a bubbling fountain focused on broadcasting
the news to colonies or others.

The US is said to be ISTJ--introverted, sensing, thinking, judging,
the type of the engineer, dentist, and accountant, census takers and
bean counters.

Even cities have personality types--Washington, ISTJ. San Francisco
ENFP. What cities are most like ancient Rome--ESTJ--anywhere in the
world? (Paris is ISTJ).

By the way, are there anyone similar to me in Nova Roma? I'm a
senior citizen (visually impaired), work at home part time writing
novels and nonfiction, interested in art, psychology of ancient
peoples, and anthropology, have a masters in creative
writing/English, and also am interested in what life was like in
Ancient Rome. I'm a homebased nondriver with multiple disabilities
so don't get out much as I'm old, but I do have the chance to
collect and read novels about ancient Rome and write some. My Web
sites are at http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html/
My chief hobbies are reading about DNA and genealogy, art and poetry
of ancient Rome, and I was just wondering whether there are any
other senior citizen ladies in Nova Roma, or just me at this time.
My question is: anyone know where a site is online to learn some
Latin phrases? I live in N. California. Thanks.

Vale,

Octavia Fabia Scriba
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7645 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: From a new Citizen...
Welcome Caius Sentius!

It is good to have you here!

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar"
<sentium@h...> wrote:
> Ave Fratres Cives!
>
> I'm a new Citizen from Italy, Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar, and
I'd like to thank you all and explain my happiness becaming one of
your great and wonderful community!!
> In my life I always be interested in roman culture and history,
including all the arts like music, painting, buildings and military
and recently i found also cookery in roman style....
> I hope i can give all my experience and goodwill to "my Community"
that I fell like mine...
> "Roma Caput Mundi" wasnt' only a phrase... was a way of thinking
against the darkness of ignorance of the ancient world...
>
> Thank you all my fellows!!!
>
> Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7646 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: the Roman Times
Ave Nova-Romani!

The latest issue of the Roman Times is ready for you
to enjoy, currently published at:

http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/index.html

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

=====
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
Accensa Ordinaria Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.gensmoravia.org

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7647 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Octavia Fabia.

What a nice introduction! I couldn't help myself answering your
message :-).

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "biojournalism
>biojournalism@h...>" <biojournalism@h...> wrote:
> Savete Omnes:
>
> According to Jungian personality types as related to the MBTI
> (Myers- Briggs Type Indicator), ancient Rome was ESTJ as far as the
> personality of a city goes--extroverted, sensing, thinking,
> judging....that is practical, concrete, detailed, planning,
> factual, methodical, organized, rational, judging, and mathematical
> in a practical way. (Extroverted thinking focused on planning and
> practical solutions).

That theory was a small part of my Friday exam! ;-).

> The opposite type of personality was Athens, ENFP--extroverted,
> intuitive, abstract, theoretical, introverted feeling in art and
> music, expressive, probing, exploring, and focused on creativity in
> art, philsophy, music, and mathematics. (In spite of what happened
> to most scientists who went against introverted feeling of the
> people)....ENFP is like a bubbling fountain focused on broadcasting
> the news to colonies or others.
>
> The US is said to be ISTJ--introverted, sensing, thinking, judging,
> the type of the engineer, dentist, and accountant, census takers
> and bean counters.
>
> Even cities have personality types--Washington, ISTJ. San Francisco
> ENFP. What cities are most like ancient Rome--ESTJ--anywhere in the
> world? (Paris is ISTJ).

I would classify my own hometown (Madrid) as ENFJ... Just my personal
opinion, though (there is no mathematical theory to back up all this
Jungian stuff ;-) ).

> By the way, are there anyone similar to me in Nova Roma? I'm a
> senior citizen (visually impaired), work at home part time writing
> novels and nonfiction, interested in art, psychology of ancient
> peoples, and anthropology, have a masters in creative
> writing/English, and also am interested in what life was like in
> Ancient Rome. I'm a homebased nondriver with multiple disabilities
> so don't get out much as I'm old, but I do have the chance to
> collect and read novels about ancient Rome and write some. My Web
> sites are at http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html/
> My chief hobbies are reading about DNA and genealogy, art and
> poetry of ancient Rome, and I was just wondering whether there are
> any other senior citizen ladies in Nova Roma, or just me at this
> time.

My own description goes like this: I am in my mid-twenties, and
although I have miopia, should weight 10 kilos less and have had some
hearing problems of late, I guess that I am quite fit (I play rugby
sometimes ;-) ). I am a Telecom Engineering student in his last year
(it's damn difficult here!), and I don't walk that much since I
bought a car (that might partly explain my extra 10 kilos).

I love History in all its forms and periods, and I have always had a
soft spot for Ancient Rome. I also like novels (especially historical
ones), and I am also interested in Sciences. If I hadn't studied
engineering, I would certainly have chosen something related to
genetics (Imagine! The "program" that implements living beings! Talk
about TCP/IP being interesting! ;-) ).

So I guess that we have *much* in common :-).

> My question is: anyone know where a site is online to learn some
> Latin phrases? I live in N. California. Thanks.

Have a look at these:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.04.0001
http://www.yourdictionary.com/languages.html
http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/index.html

CN·SALIX·ASTVR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7648 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
-----Original Message-----
From : “quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>“
>
>minimize the risks but the risks will always be there. I can only
>speak for myself, but if I had the opportunity to go up on a shuttle
>tommorow, I would take that risk.
>
Horrible tragedy yes, but in a sense we should have been expecting it. I think this is about the third disaster and comparing what is involved with space flight to the loss of life in earlier explorations, it is absurd. We should really be thinking still in the way people considered airplanes well into the late 1920s that it is a miracle when all goes well. It is a mark of how excellent the systems have been that we don't. Though I believe commercial development would push things near-Earth faster, it would be at the expense of safety. I would certainly go up, possibly even if I knew I wouldn't be coming down again. It's always puzzled me that it's not possible to fly as high as possible and then launch by rocket from there, since most of the energy is involved in take-off.

Vib. Ambroisius Caesariensis

"Some people ask 'Why are the rich rich' but try this one: 'Why are the poor poor' " - Tony Benn.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7649 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
--- me-in-@... wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : �quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>�
> >
> >minimize the risks but the risks will always be
> there. I can only
> >speak for myself, but if I had the opportunity to
> go up on a shuttle
> >tommorow, I would take that risk.
> >
> Horrible tragedy yes, but in a sense we should have
> been expecting it. I think this is about the third
> disaster and comparing what is involved with space
> flight to the loss of life in earlier explorations,
> it is absurd. We should really be thinking still in
> the way people considered airplanes well into the
> late 1920s that it is a miracle when all goes well.
> It is a mark of how excellent the systems have been
> that we don't. Though I believe commercial
> development would push things near-Earth faster, it
> would be at the expense of safety. I would certainly
> go up, possibly even if I knew I wouldn't be coming
> down again. It's always puzzled me that it's not
> possible to fly as high as possible and then launch
> by rocket from there, since most of the energy is
> involved in take-off.
>
> Vib. Ambroisius Caesariensis
>
The energy requirement for a static or flying launch
is the same for any given latitude. Achiving orbit is
more a matter of attaining speed rather than just
attaining altitude. It is possible to launch a rocket
straight up that attains an altitude far higher than
the area shuttles operate in, but which will fall back
to earth because it failed to reach orbital speed.

Strangely enough a ship sitting on the ground prior to
liftoff allready has part of the velocity needed to
attain orbit. This is a function of the Earth spinning
on it's axis. At the Equator this is about 1,000 MPH
of the 17,500 MPH needed for orbital velocity. At the
Latitude American Shuttles are launced from the
Earth's rotational speed provides about 600 MPH of the
velocity need to attain orbit. As you go farther north
or south of the Equator the free speed obtained from
the Earth's rotation decreases.

So I'll have something on topic for this list, if Nova
Roma wants it's own space port we need to locate our
forum as close to the Equator as possible to take
advantage of the free velocity it would give our space
craft. ;o)


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7650 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
-----Original Message-----
From : “Chantal G. Whittington“ <aerdensrw@...>
>
>Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
>significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
>more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
>it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
>to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
>the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.
>
This is the real point about the status issue. The distinction changed during the Republic and became moribund under the Empire anyway. It only matters if one class has real privilege over the other whether that class is named as such or not. America is something of an example here, by not having any formal class structure, it allows a rigid informal one to go unnoticed. You can bet that if a Kennedy or a Bush ends up destitute they won't stay that way for long while somebody who made it off the shack in Alabama and saw it all go wrong is likely to stay in the shack. What matters is the fact of the thing, not the name of the thing.
Most of the opinions coming out are very British in seeming to miss that distinction. They might as well be talking about hereditory titles. In most countries where they exist they confer no status, no privilege, nothing whatever, so they do no harm, a little conceit like having a coat of arms perhaps.
Rome developed. The very fact of devising a Nova Roma implies a different sort of development. If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure that does not deliver meaningful privileges.
V. Ambrosius Caesariensis.



--
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7651 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, me-in-@d... wrote:
>It's always puzzled me that it's not possible to fly as high as
>possible and then launch by rocket from there, since most of the
>energy is involved in take-off.

Consider the size of the rockets used to launch a shuttle into
orbit. A plane would have to carry the weight of those rockets plus
the shuttle. Considering that the temperatures involved in a rocket
launch would instantly incinerate the plane. Even if one assumed
that somehow the plane survived the launch, the laws of physics that
demand an equal and opposite reaction for every action would pummel
the plane to the earth with the same force as the rocket at launch
time. Either way scratch one very expensive computer guided plane at
every launch, not very cost effective.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7652 From: Barry Smith Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
I have read these posts until I want to scream - so I will: WE DO NEED A PLAN!!! What are our plans for growth? Where will we be in 1 or 5 or 10 years? Every group that I have participated in has had a plan. Someone once said, and I paraphrase, if you don't know where you are going you are not going to like where you wind up. Where are we going? Where do we want to wind up? What is our plan?

Caius Titinius Varus
----- Original Message -----
From: James LaSalle
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?


Ave Caesar!

Great response. Not long winded at all and very insightful. I think its funny, however, how vitriolic some patricians' arguments become defend their class standing.

I shouldn't have put it in the quo vadis post. It detracted from my main point which is:

We need a plan.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?


Avete Basilicate et Omnes.

I apologise for my long-windedness in advance, but I have a lot on my
mind after having read the Quo Vadis posts.

Go ahead, restrict the role of women in order to resurrect Roma Vera.
However, you might alienate more than a few of the feminae illustriae
in our country. They are so numerous I cannot list them all and tell
you their individiual merits, but seeing as how you spend so much
time here, then you know who they are and why they are so good for
Nova Roma. Alienate the women, products of the modern world who have
come here and taken up positions at the ropes which pull this state
along, and you may very well have a Men's Republic for Men, and Of
Men Only Populated. Because I do not think they would tolerate such
abuse by staying. If one cannot suffer the "inane insults" of others,
then they shouldn't be expected to do so either.

We read the website and the Constitution before we join (I hope), and
I at least spent a day or two thinking of which gens I wanted to
apply for. I had an equal number of Plebian and Patrician gens on my
list. The deciding factor was not whether Patrician or Plebian, as I
saw in Nova Roma that didn't seem to matter in how individuals were
treated or respected, but what gods each Gens held dear and
subsequently what it seemed they valued, and the Gens Minucia fit
perfectly with my own self.

Under the stern but loving gaze of Minerva I have made my way in this
world before ever I found Nova Roma; her brothers, Mars and Mithras,
are the gods of those soldiers who carried Old Rome on their backs
across the Continent and over waters which, with the blessings of
Oceanus, they crossed without fail; and when the battles ended, they
more often then not turned to Bacchus for relief from the gravities
of war and the horrific carnage on the field. And if we do not turn
to wine all the time, then at least we take a page from his book and
try to start laughing again when the tears are all spent.

I am proud to be a Minucia not because it is a Patrician family, but
because our Paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens is an intelligent,
fair, respectable, and respected man. Before we had been conversing
long, he welcomed me into the state with great enthusiasm, and he has
reassured me more than once that "This too shall pass" when a
particularly nasty argument on the message board upset me. I am also
looking forward to meeting Gaius Minucius Hadrianus before too long,
as we will both be attending gallery talks at the MFA in Boston soon.
From what I have seen of them and of my other brothers and sisters in
the Gens Minucia who were involved in Nova Roma before my arrival, I
am not only proud to be a Minucia, but I am honoured. I can only hope
that I won't be an embarrassment to them when they've actually met me.

If we all promise that Plebians in the homestead of Nova Roma will be
treated according to their merit as citizens and not according to
their (may I remind us all) CHOSEN "class" (once again I use that
word loosely), and that the Plebians will not be given the short end
of the stick in any way shape or form, may we leave off this going-
nowhere discussion and continue on with the Quo Vadis Project (I do
like that name, though)? To tell you the truth, I do not have the
allotment of Gentes committed to memory, and when I read the name of
a citizen on the board I do not know whether they are Patrician or
Plebian at a glance, unless the name is historically obvious or
personally familiar. To me, the difference between the two "classes",
if there exacts any in practice at all, is negligible.

We need lots of plans, and if you are interested in a certain one
then I suggest that those most intrigued get moving and start coming
up with ideas and the skeleton for what should be included in the 5-3-
1 plan. Seeing as how I am neither a student nor a lover of
governmental or public works workings, then I believe I shall sit
this one out until a component of it comes along to which I may give
my talent and my all. For instance, I think any physical Nova Roma
needs a library or a museum, or both, and when we start
theorhetically building those I will start raising my hand a little
more often. When I am not at university anymore and may more
completely devote myself to the state, I am thinking of persuing a
position in one of the Temples. But I will not do the state or the
gods any injustices by committing myself to more than I can handle at
the moment I commit myself. Until then, I will content myself on the
sidelines, where I will be out of everyone else's way.

And now, I take myself back to the sandwich that I left off making to
come and post.

Horatia Minucia Caesar


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7653 From: gens.minius@club-internet.fr Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: The Columbia Catastrophy
Salvete Quirites.

All Gens Minia joint with the pain of the whole world for the tragic loss of our friends (explorers of the sky). That the gods bless them and place them for always in stars in order to eternally remaining in our reports. All our love for the families of the victims and the friends of these heroes in the whole world.


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

Caïus Minius Messala Bellator
(Paterfamilias of the Gens Minia)
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Civis Gallia Provinciae
Civis Plebiae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7654 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
In a message dated 2/2/2003 6:19:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bsmith3121@... writes:

> I have read these posts until I want to scream - so I will: WE DO NEED A
> PLAN!!! What are our plans for growth? Where will we be in 1 or 5 or 10
> years? Every group that I have participated in has had a plan. Someone once
> said, and I paraphrase, if you don't know where you are going you are not
> going to like where you wind up. Where are we going? Where do we want to
> wind up? What is our plan?
>
> Caius Titinius Varus

What I would like to see initially is the formation of local groups within
Nova Roma. What I mean by local groups is people meeting on a regular basis
to support the goals of Nova Roma. People meeting regularly to honor and
offer sacrifice to the Gods. People organizing social events, people
learning about classical Roman culture, AND developing NEW Roman culture. We
cannot develop a Nova (ie., New) Roman Culture on-line...this can only be
done in person.

YES...we have a provincial system. But this is a regional system, this is
not a local system. We need local communities established within the
Provinces. Call them Municipia, Colonia, whatever! But there needs to be a
local presence of BOTH the "secular" side of Nova Roma and the Religio side.
Working together for the betterment of Nova Roma as a whole.

ONCE this is established...then we can start moving in the direction of
having land. Right now our only real infrastructure is the Internet. It
needs to be more than that.

And I know that someone will say, "we have discussed this before, several
times, yadda yadda...etc..." Great its been discussed before, lets get
something in action.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7655 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:51:09PM +0000, me-in-@... wrote:

Salve, V. Ambrosius Caesariensis -

> >From : ?Chantal G. Whittington? <aerdensrw@...>
> >
> >Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall significance
> >in Nova Roma (aside from them having five more century points than
> >plegeians), that I don't see it as a status that anyone would go out
> >of their way to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
> >the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.
> >
> This is the real point about the status issue. The distinction changed
> during the Republic and became moribund under the Empire anyway. It
> only matters if one class has real privilege over the other whether
> that class is named as such or not. America is something of an example
> here, by not having any formal class structure, it allows a rigid
> informal one to go unnoticed. You can bet that if a Kennedy or a Bush
> ends up destitute they won't stay that way for long while somebody who
> made it off the shack in Alabama and saw it all go wrong is likely to
> stay in the shack.

I'm not certain I see the distinction you're making. Are you saying
that, if the entire extended Kennedy clan was to become dirt-poor
overnight, somebody would immediately give them a few hundred million
dollars "to get back on their feet"? Or that, if the
"rags-to-riches-to-rags" shack-dweller had raised his own family to
multi-millionaire status in the process, he would be left to starve?

I'm not arguing the fact that there's an informal class structure in
America. I believe, however, that it has little-to-no influence on Joe
Average. In this respect, I think that NR is much closer to the US of
today than the Rome of yesterday.

> What matters is the fact of the thing, not the name
> of the thing. Most of the opinions coming out are very British in
> seeming to miss that distinction. They might as well be talking about
> hereditory titles. In most countries where they exist they confer no
> status, no privilege, nothing whatever, so they do no harm, a little
> conceit like having a coat of arms perhaps.

<smile> Then perhaps my outlook is very British in this regard. Add to
this the fact that, for a new citizen, the choice is purely voluntary,
and the issue becomes completely moot.

I wonder how many people here were aware of whether they were joining a
patrician vs. a plebeian gens _before_ they saw their Album Civium page?

> Rome developed. The very
> fact of devising a Nova Roma implies a different sort of development.
> If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure
> that does not deliver meaningful privileges.

Or that it grants them to those who can best serve Nova Roma by their
use.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Acta est fabula, plaudite!
The play is over, applaud!
-- Suetonius, "Vitae Caesarum"; said to have been emperor Augustus' last words
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7656 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
I have to admit, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about. We
are all smart, capable, creative people, "class" or no "class." In
my (admittedly limited) experience with Nova Roma, this social
standing has not mattered or made any bit of difference. When I
volunteer my talents, no one asks "What are you, patrician or
plebian?"

If keeping the structure is an effective way of organization, so be
it. I haven't yet had any occasion to notice the effects of that
structure on the way people treat each other. And the way we treat
each other is, in my mind, the most important thing here.

respectfully,
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7657 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve.

Of course I really have to apologize that I am not a native english speaker.
My fault. But, hey, we do not all start our lives with the same great
opportunities and with the same chances. My posts were referring to your statement
about ancient rome. I still have the impression that you have no idea. This
is not meant as an insult, once again, it is my personal impression. If you
say you have, please share your wisdom with us. But, after you have avoided by
any means to answer my really simple question:

Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigned/ruled and who those
people were that did it?,

I think that I am right with my statement about your knowledge. A part of
romanitas is to live somewhere on the social ladder and to stay there. The
romans detested nothing more than "res novae". There is some flexibility in this
system, but not too much.

Furthermore I think that the only person in this discussion that is really
intending to insult others is you.
I fully agree that it makes sense to ask questions about how NR should go
on, where it should lead to. How we can achieve the goal of what NR was meant
to become. But I think neither your flaming nor your impoliteness is a very
productive means or helpful. Stop crying for a plan and provide one. Start a
poll about it. Bring it forth to discussion. And be able to bear critique.

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

P.S.: I am not a patrician, as which you have adressed me in your other
"answer".



--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7658 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve!

Yes, this is just the way I see it. There are other, more important issues.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


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NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7659 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
"If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure that does not deliver meaningful privileges."

Thats what I'm saying.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@...
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


-----Original Message-----
From : "Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@...>
>
>Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
>significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
>more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
>it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
>to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
>the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.
>
This is the real point about the status issue. The distinction changed during the Republic and became moribund under the Empire anyway. It only matters if one class has real privilege over the other whether that class is named as such or not. America is something of an example here, by not having any formal class structure, it allows a rigid informal one to go unnoticed. You can bet that if a Kennedy or a Bush ends up destitute they won't stay that way for long while somebody who made it off the shack in Alabama and saw it all go wrong is likely to stay in the shack. What matters is the fact of the thing, not the name of the thing.
Most of the opinions coming out are very British in seeming to miss that distinction. They might as well be talking about hereditory titles. In most countries where they exist they confer no status, no privilege, nothing whatever, so they do no harm, a little conceit like having a coat of arms perhaps.
Rome developed. The very fact of devising a Nova Roma implies a different sort of development. If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure that does not deliver meaningful privileges.
V. Ambrosius Caesariensis.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7660 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Salve,

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola, I for one am willing to put my money where your
mouth is. Nova Roma has not yet had a codified 'plan' simply because we have
not possessed the people or infrastructure to accurately carry such a thing
out. However, if people want such a plan to be created it surely can be -
and perhaps we've even grown to the point where it can succeed to some
extent.

As one of the founders of Nova Roma I'd like to help set a foundation for
detailed planning. The text below is an explanation of some of the major
goals set for Nova Roma at it's founding; an outline of basic intent with
some suggestions toward further specific work.

Instead of listing goals from the 'top down,' I've listed goals from the most
basic to the most complex. It proceeds from what we originally hoped for each
of us as individuals, to our overall organization. It is my hope that rather
than trying to list innumerable goals, we can remember these core ideals
while creating more detailed plans. As a Senator, I of course volunteer to
assist with creating more specific goals... provided we have other volunteers
to actually help working to achieve the goals set.

******************************************
GOALS SET AT THE FOUNDING OF NOVA ROMA


I. INDIVIDUALS - Nova Roma has always been intended to be a force for
encouraging and building more "Romanitas" in the lives of its Citizens. In
the modern world many wonderful Classical ideals are being forgotten; it has
been our hope to rekindle a love for Roman culture, arts, history,
literature, virtues, religion, philosophy and more. Our most basic ideal is
that Romanitas is worth exploring, learning and preserving, and that a life
which includes Romanitas is more interesting and meaningful.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Most things in Nova Roma are hoped to lead
toward this goal. List discussion, Sodalitas groups, Provincial community,
festivals and events, participation in the Religio, political participation,
etc. can help bring a greater sense of Romanitas - if we allow them to.

Specifics: Additional sodalitas groups (and supporting the ones we have)
might be helpful. There are many aspects of Roman life and culture that have
no official 'place' for focus and gaining more Citizen interests, and the
places we do have, such as the cooking and poetry sodalitiae, are not given
much official attention/encouragement. This is a place where we could learn
from the "guilds" in the SCA, even if our intent is somewhat 'deeper' as far
as incorporation into daily life.


II. FAMILIAE & HOUSEHOLDS - In addition to encouraging more personal
Romanitas, Nova Roma was also founded on the hope of encouraging greater
Classical focus within families and households. The home and family were the
foundation of Roman culture. We recognize that it is within the home and
family that Classical interest is most easily fostered and pursued. To this
end Nova Roma has both encouraged participation by 'natural' families, and
also provided a Gentes system which allows adoption for those living alone,
etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: As with individuals, many of the aspects of
Nova Roma are intended to encourage Romanitas within the household and
family. Here local participation and group involvement becomes even more
important, as they are more easily shared than email.

Specifics: The more active our Sodalitas groups and local Provinciae are, the
more likely it is that immediate families will become involved, and 'adopted'
Gens ties will be strengthened and shared. And, the more that people are able
to participate on a group level, the more likely that Romanitas will be
included in many aspects of the household. It is important to focus on
getting together in 'real time.' Roman commerce can also a part here as well
- the more Roman goods are available, the more 'Roman' a household can seem.
Encouraging the Ordo Equester might be a helpful thing.

III. PROVINCIAE - The various Provinciae, and the 'regios' within them, have
always been intended to be where Nova Roma "lives". The Internet is a tool
for sharing information and conversation, but it is no replacement for
face-to-face community. The hope has been that as Nova Roma gains more
Citizens, more of us will find others locally, and that we will be able to
gather to share "things Roman", be those things religion, cultural events,
reenacting, or simple fellowship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Our Provincial Praetors, and their Legates,
are intended first and foremost to be 'contact people' and local
coordinators. It is in them that the trust is put that local events will
happen whenever there are enough people to allow it, that information gets
disseminated on the local level, citizens become encouraged locally, etc.
Local organization and participation is critical. Consuls, Senators, etc. can
only do so much on the state level... folks have to be out there organizing
and hosting local events, putting out flyers, and much more.

Specifics: There may be many more things that the 'State' could do to assist
growth of and participation within the Provinciae. Closer support of Praetors
and Legates, providing more resources (such as flyers, websites, etc.)
assistance with gatherings and more are possible. All of our Citizens are
more likely to be active if they have the chance to participate in live
events, local groups, etc. This is another place where we could learn from
the SCA. Their local Provinces have scheduled meetings, public classes,
events, etc. Local leadership might even be better coordinated. For instance,
there is a Provincial Praetors list which not all Praetors belong to, no
provincial legates belong to, and no one else in government belongs to. The
only communication between the state and local branches are by individual
emails, or on the main list.

IV: THE 'STATE' GOVERNMENT - The State government within Nova Roma
encompasses all elected magistrates not on the direct Provincia level, the
Senate, Consuls, Censors, etc. These offices are more than a mirror of
ancient organization, they are our board of directors, elected officers, etc.
The overall goal of the Nova Roman State is simple - to keep our micronation
afloat, and take care of everyday maintenance while working to grow and build
our infrastructure, and help keep our Citizens active and encouraged.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Many duties are expected of magisterial
offices, yet there seem to be few resources to support them. As yet Nova Roma
has put little into either training or support, leaving our officers to sink
or swim. (Much the same problems as our Provincial officers face.) It is
little wonder that it is not unusual for our volunteer officers to 'burn out'
or fade away. We might benefit from more direction toward good service, and
more reward for service well done.

Specifics: Nova Roma might well benefit from returning to the idea of
'magisterial handbooks' available online for our officers, and from our
magistrates using the "NR Magistrates list" to discuss problems and find
common solutions. Also, we should have a way of recognizing work well done by
*anyone*, both magistrates and private Citizens, on behalf of Nova Roma.

V. LAND AND PROPERTY - When Nova Roma was first conceived, it was realized
that if we were to be a 'nation' we should have some permanent physical
presence. Not a 'land' for our Citizens to homestead (for we're
international) but simply to be manifested somewhere beyond the hearts and
minds of our Citizens. Therefore the idea of 108 acres for a 'headquarters',
which we would consider a world capital. A place where Citizens could visit,
people could learn about Rome, etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Land has proven to be a confusing issue -
each Citizen seems to have separate ideas of what they want, or even what our
Declaration and Constitution are trying to say. Calls for land for
homesteading continue to crop up on lists, as do calls for abandoning all
hope for land, or obtaining any of dozens of different types, amounts or
locations of land. We need to pick one idea to start with, even if it doesn't
satisfy everyone. (And, to be honest, the founding documents do not say that
our 108 acres should be our first, or even only land holding.)

Specifics: The Senate should approach the issue of land, much as it was
finally forced to approach the issue of taxation. Land will continue to be a
divisive issue until we set a firm goal as to if we really want land or not,
and if so, exactly what type we're looking for. Then Nova Roma can work
toward a goal. Perhaps this could begin with an official call for specific
'plans' to be submitted for voting, the Senate could then choose the best few
for voting by the Comitiae.


VI. SOVEREIGN STATUS - At the founding of Nova Roma, it was fully understood
that it is basically impossible to found a 'new' nation. Many have tried and
almost all have failed - it is the policy of all macronations not to divide
their land to let it be governed by others. It is for this reason we chose to
exist both as an international organization and limited 'sovereignty
project'. It was our hope that if we could prove ourselves as the legitimate
heirs of the Roman world, we might gain the same status as given to other
organizations such as Catholic Church with Vatican City, or the Knights of
Malta. Until such a time we could only do our best to rebuild Romanitas, and
to consider ourselves an 'unrecognized people' or nation. Our sovereignty is
recognized only by ourselves at this stage, and the rest must be relegated to
time and the opinions of the world.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Nova Roma has made a good start in that we
have continued to grow and have begun to flesh out our Provinciae. The more
Nova Romans there are, and the more we are able to build, the more likely
that we might gain further legitimate status in the future.

Specifics: We can certainly make plans to build our culture and
infrastructure, and we can plan toward an administrative and religious world
capital. It is unlikely that we can 'plan' for recognition, for that is
something that must come from outside Nova Roma. Whether or not it is granted
is however perhaps not the point - the more we are able to build and become a
unique culture, the more meaningful this all will be to us.


VI. THE RELIGIO ROMANA - Nova Roma was initially founded solely to rebuild
the Religio Romana. It was very quickly understood that the Religio was
inseparable with Roman culture itself. Roman culture had to be rebuilt as
well for the Religio to function. Therefore, at the founding Nova Roma was
opened to people of all faiths and interests. A living community was needed
for a living religion to grow - even if not all members of the community were
interested in practicing that religion. At the founding the Religio Romana
was intended to do two things. The first was to restore the bond between the
Roman State and the Gods (the Pax Deorum) through traditional state rituals.
The second was to restore the worship of the Roman Gods as a living faith,
meaningful and growing, among individuals through private spirituality and
worship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Before Nova Roma was founded, there were
basically no working resources for the Religio Romana. No groups, no
websites, no public priesthood, no discussion forums, no instructions on how
to begin or what to do, etc. Now there are. Our impetus has brought forth
several imitating groups, websites, and forums, and Nova Roma itself provides
both basic information and opportunities for public priesthood. Naturally
those Citizens who practice the Religio wish to see a continuation of these
earlier achievements.

Specifics: The Religio Romana in Nova Roma has reached a point where the
basic foundations have been laid, and further growth is needed. More teaching
materials, more opportunities for public ritual, and additional activity
overall have been common requests. To this end, the Collegium Pontificum has
recently been presented with a list of the tasks that need to be done, and an
opportunity for each Pontiff to choose what they prefer to work on. Once that
is done the rest of the Priesthood will get a similar opportunity.

************************
Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pater Patriae, Senator





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7661 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:

> After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Considering that 5 years ago there was nothing but two people and a
dream...... If I may dare quote a now politically incorrect
advertisement, "You've come a long way, baby."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7662 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public
figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the
Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some
collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Salve,

Interesting you should bring up the subject of finances, as they make an
excellent general example of the difficulties Nova Roma has faced.

At the founding, it was hoped that NR could fund itself through means other
than a direct membership fee. We wanted Nova Roma to be available to everyone
equally all over the world. The original idea was to fund Nova Roma through a
variety of means including the sales of government products, money from the
Ordo Equester, money generated by Roman events and festivals, charitable
donations, etc.

Unfortunately, after two years it became painfully obvious that no startup
volunteer organization could make such funding work. The Ordo Equester
remained very small (we only just now have nine vendors), and while the state
business endeavors were profitable, they could not be run at a high enough
level on the purely volunteer basis required. If we wanted to fund things
like land, events, charitable Roman endeavors, etc, members would need to
provide funding just as people do in pretty much all other organizations.

So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations make
all large endeavors difficult.)

When taxes were first proposed Nova Roma had almost a thousand people. The
idea raised almost a thousand separate violent opinions. The reaction ranged
the complete gamut, from "That's not enough, dues must be at least $45 per
person!", to "PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA, THE OPPRESSORS ARE OUT TO STEAL YOUR
MONEY! WE MUST ALL RISE UP IN REVOLT!" Such conflicting, empassioned
messages clogged the forums for weeks on end.

It was nearly impossible to find legal consensus among all the various
opinions and views. For every one person willing to pay the tax, there was
another who refused, and another *demanding* the tax structure must be
completely different, another who was furiously indignant that poorer
Citizens and our brothers and sisters in various countries might not be able
to pay, etc. etc.

Literally months of argument ensued. Citizens resigned. A trial tax program
was started in a provincia... and then the magistrates in that province
resigned, taking the money with them. Finally, after an insane amount of
fighting, a completely *voluntary* tax was put in place. Still more Citizens
resigned; they formed a separate Roman organization in a large part because
they claimed the NR government was being oppressive to its Citizens in daring
to try and fund the treasury. People still continue to argue about taxation
to this day. What say you, Citizens of Nova Roma? Would you each care to
share your individual ideas concerning NR taxation with Gaius Basilicatus
Agricola? ;)

Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that
they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness
to.

The magistrates and Senate of Nova Roma have the completely unenviable task
of having to reach something approximating 'general consensus' with *every
issue* that Nova Roma faces. We are a completely volunteer society, and our
government obviously has no real 'power' over the Citizens. The Comitiae make
the decisions, and there are always some who refuse to reconcile even with
those voted decisions.

Take yourself and the issue of Plebians and Patricians. I guarantee you the
vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow
of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No. Will you ever? I don't believe
so. If the Comitiae were to revote the issue and uphold the classes, would
you accept that vote? From what I've seen, my guess is still "no". I think
you consider the classes so unfair, the only possible solution in your world
is for us all to do what *you* demand.

There are people with the same passionate opinions as yours on *every issue*
that Nova Roma has ever faced, and who refuse to live with other
decisions/solutions no matter what the odds. Do you truly wonder why things
have not progressed as much as you wish?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7663 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Ave Senator

Thank you for your measured and polite response. It has given me more insight into Nova Roam and its goals. You seem to be on top of it. You should be in charge of "The Plan"!

It all comes down to money. Taxes should be more like $20.00 or $30.00 a year. That should include a membership to the Eagle. All successful organizations communicate to their members in print on a monthly basis. Sell advertising in it. Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get Caesar's to sponsor us. Form a Nova Roman play production company and put on some Greek and Roman plays. Lysistrata would be appropriate in America at this monent. The money making ideas we have to tap on are unlimited. First the money, then the dream.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)


Salve,

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola, I for one am willing to put my money where your
mouth is. Nova Roma has not yet had a codified 'plan' simply because we have
not possessed the people or infrastructure to accurately carry such a thing
out. However, if people want such a plan to be created it surely can be -
and perhaps we've even grown to the point where it can succeed to some
extent.

As one of the founders of Nova Roma I'd like to help set a foundation for
detailed planning. The text below is an explanation of some of the major
goals set for Nova Roma at it's founding; an outline of basic intent with
some suggestions toward further specific work.

Instead of listing goals from the 'top down,' I've listed goals from the most
basic to the most complex. It proceeds from what we originally hoped for each
of us as individuals, to our overall organization. It is my hope that rather
than trying to list innumerable goals, we can remember these core ideals
while creating more detailed plans. As a Senator, I of course volunteer to
assist with creating more specific goals... provided we have other volunteers
to actually help working to achieve the goals set.

******************************************
GOALS SET AT THE FOUNDING OF NOVA ROMA


I. INDIVIDUALS - Nova Roma has always been intended to be a force for
encouraging and building more "Romanitas" in the lives of its Citizens. In
the modern world many wonderful Classical ideals are being forgotten; it has
been our hope to rekindle a love for Roman culture, arts, history,
literature, virtues, religion, philosophy and more. Our most basic ideal is
that Romanitas is worth exploring, learning and preserving, and that a life
which includes Romanitas is more interesting and meaningful.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Most things in Nova Roma are hoped to lead
toward this goal. List discussion, Sodalitas groups, Provincial community,
festivals and events, participation in the Religio, political participation,
etc. can help bring a greater sense of Romanitas - if we allow them to.

Specifics: Additional sodalitas groups (and supporting the ones we have)
might be helpful. There are many aspects of Roman life and culture that have
no official 'place' for focus and gaining more Citizen interests, and the
places we do have, such as the cooking and poetry sodalitiae, are not given
much official attention/encouragement. This is a place where we could learn
from the "guilds" in the SCA, even if our intent is somewhat 'deeper' as far
as incorporation into daily life.


II. FAMILIAE & HOUSEHOLDS - In addition to encouraging more personal
Romanitas, Nova Roma was also founded on the hope of encouraging greater
Classical focus within families and households. The home and family were the
foundation of Roman culture. We recognize that it is within the home and
family that Classical interest is most easily fostered and pursued. To this
end Nova Roma has both encouraged participation by 'natural' families, and
also provided a Gentes system which allows adoption for those living alone,
etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: As with individuals, many of the aspects of
Nova Roma are intended to encourage Romanitas within the household and
family. Here local participation and group involvement becomes even more
important, as they are more easily shared than email.

Specifics: The more active our Sodalitas groups and local Provinciae are, the
more likely it is that immediate families will become involved, and 'adopted'
Gens ties will be strengthened and shared. And, the more that people are able
to participate on a group level, the more likely that Romanitas will be
included in many aspects of the household. It is important to focus on
getting together in 'real time.' Roman commerce can also a part here as well
- the more Roman goods are available, the more 'Roman' a household can seem.
Encouraging the Ordo Equester might be a helpful thing.

III. PROVINCIAE - The various Provinciae, and the 'regios' within them, have
always been intended to be where Nova Roma "lives". The Internet is a tool
for sharing information and conversation, but it is no replacement for
face-to-face community. The hope has been that as Nova Roma gains more
Citizens, more of us will find others locally, and that we will be able to
gather to share "things Roman", be those things religion, cultural events,
reenacting, or simple fellowship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Our Provincial Praetors, and their Legates,
are intended first and foremost to be 'contact people' and local
coordinators. It is in them that the trust is put that local events will
happen whenever there are enough people to allow it, that information gets
disseminated on the local level, citizens become encouraged locally, etc.
Local organization and participation is critical. Consuls, Senators, etc. can
only do so much on the state level... folks have to be out there organizing
and hosting local events, putting out flyers, and much more.

Specifics: There may be many more things that the 'State' could do to assist
growth of and participation within the Provinciae. Closer support of Praetors
and Legates, providing more resources (such as flyers, websites, etc.)
assistance with gatherings and more are possible. All of our Citizens are
more likely to be active if they have the chance to participate in live
events, local groups, etc. This is another place where we could learn from
the SCA. Their local Provinces have scheduled meetings, public classes,
events, etc. Local leadership might even be better coordinated. For instance,
there is a Provincial Praetors list which not all Praetors belong to, no
provincial legates belong to, and no one else in government belongs to. The
only communication between the state and local branches are by individual
emails, or on the main list.

IV: THE 'STATE' GOVERNMENT - The State government within Nova Roma
encompasses all elected magistrates not on the direct Provincia level, the
Senate, Consuls, Censors, etc. These offices are more than a mirror of
ancient organization, they are our board of directors, elected officers, etc.
The overall goal of the Nova Roman State is simple - to keep our micronation
afloat, and take care of everyday maintenance while working to grow and build
our infrastructure, and help keep our Citizens active and encouraged.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Many duties are expected of magisterial
offices, yet there seem to be few resources to support them. As yet Nova Roma
has put little into either training or support, leaving our officers to sink
or swim. (Much the same problems as our Provincial officers face.) It is
little wonder that it is not unusual for our volunteer officers to 'burn out'
or fade away. We might benefit from more direction toward good service, and
more reward for service well done.

Specifics: Nova Roma might well benefit from returning to the idea of
'magisterial handbooks' available online for our officers, and from our
magistrates using the "NR Magistrates list" to discuss problems and find
common solutions. Also, we should have a way of recognizing work well done by
*anyone*, both magistrates and private Citizens, on behalf of Nova Roma.

V. LAND AND PROPERTY - When Nova Roma was first conceived, it was realized
that if we were to be a 'nation' we should have some permanent physical
presence. Not a 'land' for our Citizens to homestead (for we're
international) but simply to be manifested somewhere beyond the hearts and
minds of our Citizens. Therefore the idea of 108 acres for a 'headquarters',
which we would consider a world capital. A place where Citizens could visit,
people could learn about Rome, etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Land has proven to be a confusing issue -
each Citizen seems to have separate ideas of what they want, or even what our
Declaration and Constitution are trying to say. Calls for land for
homesteading continue to crop up on lists, as do calls for abandoning all
hope for land, or obtaining any of dozens of different types, amounts or
locations of land. We need to pick one idea to start with, even if it doesn't
satisfy everyone. (And, to be honest, the founding documents do not say that
our 108 acres should be our first, or even only land holding.)

Specifics: The Senate should approach the issue of land, much as it was
finally forced to approach the issue of taxation. Land will continue to be a
divisive issue until we set a firm goal as to if we really want land or not,
and if so, exactly what type we're looking for. Then Nova Roma can work
toward a goal. Perhaps this could begin with an official call for specific
'plans' to be submitted for voting, the Senate could then choose the best few
for voting by the Comitiae.


VI. SOVEREIGN STATUS - At the founding of Nova Roma, it was fully understood
that it is basically impossible to found a 'new' nation. Many have tried and
almost all have failed - it is the policy of all macronations not to divide
their land to let it be governed by others. It is for this reason we chose to
exist both as an international organization and limited 'sovereignty
project'. It was our hope that if we could prove ourselves as the legitimate
heirs of the Roman world, we might gain the same status as given to other
organizations such as Catholic Church with Vatican City, or the Knights of
Malta. Until such a time we could only do our best to rebuild Romanitas, and
to consider ourselves an 'unrecognized people' or nation. Our sovereignty is
recognized only by ourselves at this stage, and the rest must be relegated to
time and the opinions of the world.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Nova Roma has made a good start in that we
have continued to grow and have begun to flesh out our Provinciae. The more
Nova Romans there are, and the more we are able to build, the more likely
that we might gain further legitimate status in the future.

Specifics: We can certainly make plans to build our culture and
infrastructure, and we can plan toward an administrative and religious world
capital. It is unlikely that we can 'plan' for recognition, for that is
something that must come from outside Nova Roma. Whether or not it is granted
is however perhaps not the point - the more we are able to build and become a
unique culture, the more meaningful this all will be to us.


VI. THE RELIGIO ROMANA - Nova Roma was initially founded solely to rebuild
the Religio Romana. It was very quickly understood that the Religio was
inseparable with Roman culture itself. Roman culture had to be rebuilt as
well for the Religio to function. Therefore, at the founding Nova Roma was
opened to people of all faiths and interests. A living community was needed
for a living religion to grow - even if not all members of the community were
interested in practicing that religion. At the founding the Religio Romana
was intended to do two things. The first was to restore the bond between the
Roman State and the Gods (the Pax Deorum) through traditional state rituals.
The second was to restore the worship of the Roman Gods as a living faith,
meaningful and growing, among individuals through private spirituality and
worship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Before Nova Roma was founded, there were
basically no working resources for the Religio Romana. No groups, no
websites, no public priesthood, no discussion forums, no instructions on how
to begin or what to do, etc. Now there are. Our impetus has brought forth
several imitating groups, websites, and forums, and Nova Roma itself provides
both basic information and opportunities for public priesthood. Naturally
those Citizens who practice the Religio wish to see a continuation of these
earlier achievements.

Specifics: The Religio Romana in Nova Roma has reached a point where the
basic foundations have been laid, and further growth is needed. More teaching
materials, more opportunities for public ritual, and additional activity
overall have been common requests. To this end, the Collegium Pontificum has
recently been presented with a list of the tasks that need to be done, and an
opportunity for each Pontiff to choose what they prefer to work on. Once that
is done the rest of the Priesthood will get a similar opportunity.

************************
Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pater Patriae, Senator





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7664 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
Ave Cassius

"I guarantee you the vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No."

Yes, I accept it. I don't care anymore. Pretend I never said a word on the subject.

Your description of the tax situation is hilarious. If that is truly the state of things here, then there is no hope. You can't do squat without money. If you can't raise money, then one certainly can't handle it, even if someone throws it in your lap. I've belonged to cheapskate organizations before, and have left in disgust. If we can't agree that we need money, and lots of it, to implement even the most basic goals, then we're doomed.

My law practice has taken off. I'm doing well now but I'll never forget the slim times. It was tough in the begining. Many a day when the phone didn't ring and I didn't know what would happen to me. I tried to office out of my house;clients want to come to an office, so I finagled an office. I had a crappy computer at the office, and it wasted more time than it saved me, so I got a new computer. The same with fax, credit card machine, etc. I devised new marketing schemes, joined organizations to increase my contacts, and kissed a lot of hind ends. And many a sleepless nights wondering if I had advised a client correctly, if we would win or lose, should we have gone to trial? I aged twenty years in five. Prosecuting was a party compared to private practice.


I'm not bragging. I'm not outrageously wealthy. But I have a fervent belief that hard work without money, guts, and risk taking is just a bunch of hard work, usually to someone else's benefit. If some members here don't want to give money to their elected government, take some risks, and do some hard work, then they have no faith in Nova Roma or themselves. I do. If I rub some some people in here the wrong way, I could care less. We need a plan, and we need money. Otherwise, whats the point?

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public
figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the
Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some
collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Salve,

Interesting you should bring up the subject of finances, as they make an
excellent general example of the difficulties Nova Roma has faced.

At the founding, it was hoped that NR could fund itself through means other
than a direct membership fee. We wanted Nova Roma to be available to everyone
equally all over the world. The original idea was to fund Nova Roma through a
variety of means including the sales of government products, money from the
Ordo Equester, money generated by Roman events and festivals, charitable
donations, etc.

Unfortunately, after two years it became painfully obvious that no startup
volunteer organization could make such funding work. The Ordo Equester
remained very small (we only just now have nine vendors), and while the state
business endeavors were profitable, they could not be run at a high enough
level on the purely volunteer basis required. If we wanted to fund things
like land, events, charitable Roman endeavors, etc, members would need to
provide funding just as people do in pretty much all other organizations.

So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations make
all large endeavors difficult.)

When taxes were first proposed Nova Roma had almost a thousand people. The
idea raised almost a thousand separate violent opinions. The reaction ranged
the complete gamut, from "That's not enough, dues must be at least $45 per
person!", to "PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA, THE OPPRESSORS ARE OUT TO STEAL YOUR
MONEY! WE MUST ALL RISE UP IN REVOLT!" Such conflicting, empassioned
messages clogged the forums for weeks on end.

It was nearly impossible to find legal consensus among all the various
opinions and views. For every one person willing to pay the tax, there was
another who refused, and another *demanding* the tax structure must be
completely different, another who was furiously indignant that poorer
Citizens and our brothers and sisters in various countries might not be able
to pay, etc. etc.

Literally months of argument ensued. Citizens resigned. A trial tax program
was started in a provincia... and then the magistrates in that province
resigned, taking the money with them. Finally, after an insane amount of
fighting, a completely *voluntary* tax was put in place. Still more Citizens
resigned; they formed a separate Roman organization in a large part because
they claimed the NR government was being oppressive to its Citizens in daring
to try and fund the treasury. People still continue to argue about taxation
to this day. What say you, Citizens of Nova Roma? Would you each care to
share your individual ideas concerning NR taxation with Gaius Basilicatus
Agricola? ;)

Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that
they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness
to.

The magistrates and Senate of Nova Roma have the completely unenviable task
of having to reach something approximating 'general consensus' with *every
issue* that Nova Roma faces. We are a completely volunteer society, and our
government obviously has no real 'power' over the Citizens. The Comitiae make
the decisions, and there are always some who refuse to reconcile even with
those voted decisions.

Take yourself and the issue of Plebians and Patricians. I guarantee you the
vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow
of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No. Will you ever? I don't believe
so. If the Comitiae were to revote the issue and uphold the classes, would
you accept that vote? From what I've seen, my guess is still "no". I think
you consider the classes so unfair, the only possible solution in your world
is for us all to do what *you* demand.

There are people with the same passionate opinions as yours on *every issue*
that Nova Roma has ever faced, and who refuse to live with other
decisions/solutions no matter what the odds. Do you truly wonder why things
have not progressed as much as you wish?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7665 From: Pipar - Steven Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: "Seven Are Gone"
Salus et Fortuna Renata Corva,

"Chantal G. Whittington" wrote:
>
> Pipar--I am linking to your poem from my Livejournal.
> That was beautiful!
>
> ---
> Renata Corva
> http://aerden.livejournal.com
>

I am always gratified when my words are found to be of worth, I thank you.

For anyone who feels the same, please, as long as my name remains attached, feel free to repost my
words.

--
=========================================
In amicus sub fidelis
Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives Patricianus Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7666 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
In a message dated 2/2/03 6:59:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> A Man's Republic for Men.

Of course we'd be in breech of title IX. But all the study grants that have
been refused are
partially because we allow women positions of authority in NR. It makes us
an imperfect model. However I am hopeful. The women here are educated
people, which of course
qualifies them to be magistrates. I'm hoping to prove that women in power
here in NR are as aggressive as males. If we can prove this, those
objections would have to be dropped.
We did have a rich man offer money. And he would have been a Plebeian. But
the dot com went bust and that ship has sailed.
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7667 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
As I join this debate I want you and everybody on this list to know up front that am doing so
ABSIT INVIDIA " LET ILL WII BE ABSENT"
I come to debate not to argue or to be argumentative

LSD>First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of having
a city where our citizens can live.
TGP then maybe we should change the goal.
LSD Our goal is similar to what the Catholic Church realized in 1929,
a small administrative forum that is the focus of the
Religio and our culture.
TGP When Italy was unified in 1860 they took over by CONQUEST and by the consent of a majority of Romans( the people who lived in the City of Rome) the territory of the Papal States, a political and religious entity that goes back into the middle ages. They did so again the fierce opposition of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Popes in power . The RCC held out the hope and aspiration to reclaim the Papal States from a united Italy from 1860 until 1929 when a Concordat was signed between Italy and the Catholic Church. This came about only because the RCC finally excepted that a united Italy was here to stay. The RCC took what it could get at this point and the was the Vatican City State
LSD> We wish to acquire at least
108 acres for this purpose. Once we acquire this land
it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
living quarters for those who want to relocate to the
forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair to
expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
realize that dream.
TGP>An administrative center that is bigger that an office building would require a City or town to offer services that the officials will need. Water, sewers, (electricity or gas?) even the office building would need these services. Are the magistrates of NR going to live in their office? No they're going to live in Roman like houses in a Roman like City or town. They will eat in restaurants that serve Roman food, by chefs trained at the Nova Roman Culinary Institute, one of the many private business that will establish themselves in the New Capital City of Nova Roma by Nova Romans.
( I intend to establish the culinary school in the city so nobody steal this name ok)
LSD> The Catholic Church has never had a goal of having
large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
The Vatican is the administrative center for Catholics
living all over the world.
TPG only by default, not by design of the Popes or the RCC
and the fact that The Vatican City State is located in the center of ROME a city of millions might also play a role ,further the people who help run/staff the Vatican City State all live , with one or two notable exceptions in the City of Rome. No need to import them.
Our goal is to achieve the
same status, an administrative center, not an
independent city.
TGP Why?
We hold CITIZENSHIP in Nova Roma! By definition citizens needs a City as in ancient Rome or in the modern world a Nation-State . Rome /The Vatican City State is the administrative center of the RCC and has been ( with the exception of the time the Popes lived in France ) for centuries .

LSD> Since we have citizens who wish to acquire land near
the forum, I have suggested that we attempt to acquire a
much larger plot of land than we need for the forum. I
Have suggested that we acquire 1000 acres, set aside 200
for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in one
acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
the purchase.
TGP no we sell the land at a reasonable mark up to fill the treasury of Nova Roma.
This will allow us to build the Temples and other Nova Roma building we would need. Like a museum on Roman culture and history, which will bring in the tourists that will again fill the treasury .
This will require a higher initial
outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
the treasury that can be used to start construction.
One thing has to be made clear though.
LSD These plots will not be part of a city of Nova Roma.
TGP Again I ask WHY?
LSD >They will belike owning land in the city of Roma near the Vatican,
they will remain under the control of some modern
nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.
TGP> Are you implying that Nova Roma can at sometime in the future, get land for the Forum that would have Sovereignty but not land next to it? Nova Roma can only get sovereignty by acquiring it from a political entity that already holds it.

LDS> As for the orders, they are needed to maintain the
ancient system of government, and there are some
offices in the Religio that are only open to
Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is not
only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
reason Nova Roma was founded.
TGP> In reality there are no citizens of Nova Roma that are TRUE physical decedents of the Patricians .You have embarked on a noble effort to re-establish the Roman religion. But because a thousand years or more has elapsed since it was last practiced any modifications you make to it would by nature make it NEW. We have women in new roles the Roman would not have allowed. What would the religious leaders of Ancient Rome say about these and other changes made to accommodate the 21st century?
Again with ABSIT INVIDIA
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen
Fortuna Favet Fortibus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7668 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-02
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
> The patricians ran the Republic into
> the ground.<<
>
As a Roman historian I take issue with this generalization.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7670 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
ok
why?

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?





> The patricians ran the Republic into
> the ground.<<
>
As a Roman historian I take issue with this generalization.

Q. Fabius Maximus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7671 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Your Big Fat Ancient Roman Wedding
http://www.pogodesigns.com/JP/weddings/romanwed.html


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: biojournalism <biojournalism@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:38 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Your Big Fat Ancient Roman Wedding


Ancient Roman Wedding Procedure
By: Octavia Fabia Scriba

Here are the 43 Steps to Your Ancient Roman Wedding.

A Roman wedding ring symbolized the rope that bound the bridal
wrists in times so ancient it occurred before ancient Rome. Yet it
also symbolized the circular nature of nature itself which
symbolized recurrence, rebirth, and rhythm. By the Republic era of
ancient Rome, the wedding ring was then thought to bind the nerve
that ran from the finger to the heart, thereby caging the bride's
heart or seat of emotions as a caged bird that sings. Yet the liver
was supposed to be the seat of emotions, but never the brain. A lot
took place between the time of negotiation and engagement before a
wedding, a lot of planning, thought, and family social climbing,
when possible.
You can have three types of Roman weddings. In ancient Rome there
were three different kinds of weddings. You could have the
confarreatio. This is the patrician marriage assuming the bride's
and groom's parents also were married with confarreatio. You'd have
a grand ceremony with ten witnesses.
You'd need a Flamen Dialis and Pontifex Maximus to conduct the
wedding. The bride goes straight from her paterfamilias to the
groom. Divorce was almost unheard of. A patrician divorce was
difficult to obtain and rare, but if gotten, a diffareatio required
a sacrifice before the wife was returned to her father..The bride is
literally handed into her father's arms. "manus of her
paterfamilias."
You could have a plebeian wedding and have a common Roman marriage
where "manus" called the coemptio. The groom purchased the bride.
The groom pays nummus usus, a penny, and gets the bride in exchange
for the penny. It's not a real sale, but symbolizes the traditional
bride purchase of years gone by before ancient Roman times. For a
common wedding, you only need five witnesses. The wedding is
informal, but the bride is given to her husband's family.
The third kind of Roman marriage is unusual because it was
not used by the end of the Republic and labeled old fashioned. It
went out with the end of the Republic. It was called the "usus" and
was a practical marriage that did not require any type of ritual or
ceremony. This type of marriage existed in the days of the early
Republic and before that when there were kings in Rome. By 80 BCE,
it was termed obsolete.
In this wedding, the bride was transferred to the "manus" of the
groom (or the bride is handed over to the groom) after cohabitation
for a year. At the beginning of the cohabitation where the two would
simply live together for a set time, the couple would take an oath
of adfectus maritalis, fidelity in marriage. After the year was up,
the bride then belonged to the husband or "passed into his hands."
The only way to get out of that cohabitation marriage was if the
woman was away from the husband's home for three nights in a row,
she would not have to pass into the husband's clutches, `er hands. .
or rather his "manus."

1. No ceremony was needed to legalize your wedding. So it's
okay to live together for two weeks in order to acquire "adfectus
maritalis," and thereby have your wedding recognized as legal in
Rome. However, most patrician families insisted upon a rite of
marriage ceremony-a wedding and wedding feast.
2. First the bride renounces her infanthood. She begins by
giving away her childhood toys and her children's garb called the
toga praetexta. She proceeds to take three baths, one in cold water,
one in lukewarm water, and one in heated water, comfortable but
warm. She scrubs her body with a mixture of warm extra virgin olive
oil, cold pressed, of course.
3. To the bowl of olive oil is added whole and pressed cloves,
pot purri dried flowers such as orange blossoms and rose blossoms or
petals and extract of orange blossom and rose petal water, essence
adopted from the Phoenicians-to boil orange and rose petals and wash
with it mixed with olive oil. She rinses her mouth with rose petal
water and eats a fresh apple to clean her teeth, then rubs her teeth
with linen soaked in crushed chalk or similar minerals. (Modern
brides would do fine with calcium powder.). She brushes orange
blossom honey on her tongue.
4. Her hairstyle is unique to the wedding feast and is called
the tutulus. This hairdo involves having her hair combed and parted
into six locks. The Latin term was "sex crines," (no not sex crimes)
crines. Six crines. Her hair is parted into six parts not with a
comb but with a traditional Roman bent iron spearhead called
a "hasta recurva" or "hasta caelibaris." Her hair is parted in six
parts with a bent iron spearhead. (As if that isn't enough of a
phallic symbol at a wedding, the reason for the spearhead in ancient
Rome was that it drove out the evil eye in her hair and any other
evil ghost-spirits.) This custom pops up in other cultures from
Australia to ancient Rome-driving out the evil ones from the hair
with a bent spearhead. This was preceded by a fine carved ivory or
wooden lice comb through the hair and then the spearhead for good
measure.
5. She fastens or has fastened the six hair locks equally
divided in a hexagon over her head with a type of clip or baret
called a vittae.
6. The vittae are fastened on top of her head in a meta. The
meta is shaped like an inverted or standing pyramid or a cone. In
other words, she has six hair spikes sticking up from her head.
However, the meta is not severe looking. Usually the wedding
tradition required that six locks of curled hair be clipped in place
in the shape of a cone.
7. The wedding gown in ancient Rome was only worn one time and
then tossed. It could be off-white, but the wedding veil was bright
red and called the flammeum. And the red veil was the most important
symbol she wore at her wedding.
8. The wedding vows. The woman says in Latin "I veil myself."
She uses the verb "nubo" which is a term used for a cloud "nubes."
What she means is that she's under a cloud or veiled. She's property
under a cloud being exchanged. (Let's see her get to inherit
property with that title report of being under a cloud.)
9. Words related to nubo include nupta, a woman who is married,
nova nupta, a bride, and nuptiae, the wedding from which comes the
English word, nuptials used today for wedding ceremonies and
rituals. Everything in the wedding feast or ritual now is focused on
the bride and her flaming red veil. (Why red? Was she compared to a
rose, or was there a deeper meaning such as the blood proof of her
chastity/virginity that used to be demanded to be viewed from the
window by the public in Sicily and Egypt?)
10. Here's what the veil looked like: You take a rectangular
transparent piece of silk or similar material that's bride red and
drape it on the back of your head and shoulders to your heels. It's
like an oblong flag. Before silk came to Rome it was spun from a
transparent material similar to the type of flimsy, silk-like cloth
from certain Greek islands.
11. You fasten the veil to the cones at the back of your head.
The veil does not go over the face, but down the back and touching
the shoulders. On top of the veil is a wreath of amaracus.
12. A miniature wedding bed was placed in the hallway to cheer
up the couple.
13. Pine cones were lit.
14. The gown consisted of a tunica recta. You can make this out
of a white piece of rectangular cloth of muslin, flannel or silk.
You weave the cloth on an upright loom. The tunica recta is
fashioned with a girdle called a cingulum with a knot at the waist
to tie up the evil spirits so they wouldn't settle in her
reproductive organs.
15. The first half of the wedding feast takes place at the
bride's home of her paterfamilias. The bride's parents search in the
nooks and crannies of the house for omens, and if nothing is found
that's scary, they hand over the bride to the groom.
16. The bride takes the vows "Ubi tu (name of groom), ego (name
of bride), actually, Where you are (male form of name) such as
Claudius, I am (female form of the male's name) Claudia..as
in "Where you are Claudius, I am Claudia." Only you say it in
Latin. "Ubi tu Claudius, ego Claudia."
17. The groom didn't even have to be in the country. He could
send a letter with his part of the words they would exchange with
one another. Then the matron of honor called the pronuba grabs the
couple's hands and shoves them together to join the bride's and
groom's hands, gently of course.
18. The bride and groom are now married. They offer up a roast
pig as a "sacrifice."
19. Then there's the matter of the marriage contract. The
tabulae nuptials should have been prepared long ago. It's brought
forth now by the auspex, a priest and best man, and the couple signs
the contract along with the witnesses. A certain number of witnesses
were required for the contract to be legal.
20. A wedding breakfast, rather than a wedding dinner, is paid
for by the groom, even though he may not be there in person. After
eating a breakfast of cakes and egg lace pudding, all the gifts were
presented to the new couple.
21. The procession started after that. Now everything moves from
the bride's villa to the groom's. If there's no villa, then from the
bride's little hut to the groom's. The procession is like a pageant
and is called the deduction in domum mariti. It's also referred to
as the pompa for short.
22. Now the dramatic skit starts. Everything has drama in it in
ancient Rome. The couple and guests put on a wedding play. It's
almost always the same skit: The seize of the Sabines. The bride
clings or hugs her mother, and the groom pulls her out of her
mother's arms. Then the bride had to find three boys whose both
parents were alive and well callead the patarimi et matrimi to take
the bride or lead the bride away from her mother's arms while the
guests shouted jokes and/or obscenities. The groom chose one boy to
light a pine torch and carry another torch called a spina alba, a
special torch lit only from the bride's home, usually from her
fireplace or similar hearth.
23. Another boy throws walnuts (shelled) at the couple being
careful not to throw small pieces in the bride's ear where they
can't be removed, or in her eyes. So they aim the walnuts at her
legs. The nuts symbolize the wish for fertility of the bride.
24. What does the bride carry? Blueberries and wreaths, a
spindle and distaff symbolizing her role as a wife who weaves and
stays at home, and hopefully she carries nothing catching other than
the catch of the day.
25. The groom lights the torches symbolizing bringing knowledge
to the darkness.
26. The groom also sings verses called "Fescenennine poems."
27. The bride touches water and fire "aquae et ignis
communication" symbolizing a life of cooking food and washing the
soiled clothing.
28. She touches the mini-marriage bed symbolizing the separate
spirits of the bride and groom. His spirit guide is genius and her
spirit guide is juno.
29. The groom had to be at home in his own house before the
bride arrived there so he could greet her. The processions split
into two pageants called the uxorem ducere/deducere.
30. The mother of the bride yells, "epithalamia" and dances a
leap to move the spirits to cheer the couple on to consummate the
marriage, but consummation of a marriage wasn't required for the
marriage to be legal, not on the wedding night, and not decades
later. So celibate couples with adopted children were accepted.
31. The mother and bride finally arrive at the groom's house and
toss away their torches in a traditional ritual. The bride now takes
out a small jar or pot of fat or oil and rubs the grease on the
doorway and hangs a wreath and a piece of wool to symbolize her life
as a domestic hostess. She tiptoes across the threshold. In the
later republic she is carried over the threshold. The reason is that
it's a bad omen, an evil eye curse to step on the threshold or trip
over it. If she stumbles over her clothing on the way to her groom's
house, it's a bad omen that he'll trip her up or abuse her.
32. The new house is now a place for the bride to touch water
and fire to symbolize her role as chief cook and bottle washer, as
domestic housewife and stay at home mom, dedicated to a life of
cooking and washing with spinning on the side. She must not trip
over the groom's miniature marriage bed in the hallway.
33. Consummation of marriage was part of the ceremony for those
who chose. The marriage of young people-girls at age 12, boys at
14, but usually older, 17 for girls was most common, and men older,
saw to it that the room was decorated with objects of fertility and
phallic symbols. Girls as young as seven in some families were
married to older men or boys a few years older, but did not move to
the groom's home until they both were old enough to start a family
and their own household.
34. The marriage bed room was decorated with fruit and flowers.
Green leaves were put in the windows. The marriage bed was called
the torus genialis. For the last time, the bride's parents handed
the bride over to the groom. Still, there was an escort into the
bedroom, called the pronuba. The pronuba led the bride with her eyes
closed by one hand into the bedroom. The pronuba had to be an old,
married woman whose husband was still alive and who only had been
married once. She had to represent a faithful wife.
35. She told the bride what she has to do on her wedding night
and as a faithful wife thereafter-washing, cooking, spinning,
weaving and care or leadership of the house hold or servants doing
the household chores. The bride either did it herself or if she was
rich had servants, but she still had to tell them how to do it and
what to do in the domestic life-cooking, washing, cleaning, and
shopping for which foods. The pronuba's job was to teach the bride
what the bride must do to run her home on a daily basis such as how
to get find and judge the best cuts of meat or vegetables. The bride
needed a mentor. That was the pronuba's duty.
36. In the bedroom the pronuba prayed with the bride on how to
be the incarnation of a faithful wife and how to ask for a blessing
on the union.
37. The pronuba then undressed the bride, took away her jewelry
and put it in a safe place and asked the bride to get into bed,
under the covers. Then the pronuba took her leave. Later, the groom
entered escorted by those who he choose to take with him to his
marriage bed room. Or he could enter alone. Outside, the pronuba
offered a sacrifice of cakes made of cheese, honey, and flour, and
then went home. Finally the groom's friends took a hint and left the
couple alone. Oustide the marriage bedroom, the wedding feast
continued with the relatives feasting, singing, and dancing.
38. No consummation of the marriage would be done until there
was a performance of a play with the actors being the bride and
groom. Yep, another skit in the marriage bedroom. The play consisted
of actual lines and drama from a skit. The bride had to play being
not interested at all in consummating the marriage. The groom would
beg her to change her mind. She had to put on a crying act and turn
him away. He'd speak to her love poetry. She'd signal him by
addressing him as "husband," and he calling her "wife." After an
actual play with recited lines were said, or at least play-acting of
reluctance, the groom had to learn how to untie a very complex tight
knot around her waist. She wore nothing but a girdle with this rope
knotted so it would take him a long time to get the knot untied-a
way of making sure he was patient and slow to anger.
39. When and if he finally figured out how to untie the knot in
the rope around her waist fastened around her girdle or a band of
cloth around her waist, the only thing she was wearing under the bed
clothing, he proved himself worthy to consummate the marriage or at
least agree to her wishes that it wasn't required.
40. There was even a law about the consummation of marriage. It
was called the law of foedus lecti, a contract of fidelity. However,
consummation wasn't necessary or required by law for the marriage to
be legal. Whatever the couple decided, no one asked in the morning.
The bride emerged the next day to her family and guests with a new
name, "matrona" or matron. She was no longer considered a young
girl, but a matron and was supposed to act and look
matronly "matrona."
41. The most important emphasis on the marriage besides having
heirs was that the bride now belongs to the new family's religio.
That night another grand feast and pageant would take place with the
wedding guests called the repotia. That's the main wedding feast
dinner and drinks. It was a party in every sense of the word.
42. You, too could have your own Roman wedding feast, at least
in costume and food with maybe some Latin vows. All you need is a
menu and a skit for the wedding procession split into the bride and
groom's pageant where you meet at one location.
43. What to serve at an ancient Roman breakfast wedding feast:

Serve this ancient Roman recipe for egged toast.
Put out a plate of fresh balls of Mozarella cheese-the kind made
fresh from whole milk. This gives some protein to the egg bread
served on the side.
Take several slices for each party member of good, thick egg bread.
Dip the egg bread into a mixture of egg and goat milk. I prefer low-
fat Meyenberg goat milk I can buy in the health food section of the
supermarket. You use your favorite brand.
Coat the egg bread in the mixture of beaten eggs and milk. Fry in
hot extra virgin cold pressed olive oil until golden brown. Drain
off the oil and put on a platter.

Now in some more olive oil fry sliced dried fruit-apricots,
strawberries, raisins, currents, sliced peeled apples, or any fruit
you want. I like bananas. Drain and add orange blossom honey to the
olive oil mixture. You can also use maple syrup, but honey is more
ancient Roman. Pour the syrup and dried fruit over the egg toast and
serve with a ball of baked ricotta cheese and honey on the side.


Octavia Fabia Scriba
http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com
or
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7672 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
I never wrote that.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


In a message dated 2/2/03 6:59:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> A Man's Republic for Men.

Of course we'd be in breech of title IX. But all the study grants that have
been refused are
partially because we allow women positions of authority in NR. It makes us
an imperfect model. However I am hopeful. The women here are educated
people, which of course
qualifies them to be magistrates. I'm hoping to prove that women in power
here in NR are as aggressive as males. If we can prove this, those
objections would have to be dropped.
We did have a rich man offer money. And he would have been a Plebeian. But
the dot com went bust and that ship has sailed.
Q. Fabius Maximus


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7673 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve I am calling ojne of the Senator to Talk and must sigh off in order to do so
Night

----- Original Message -----
From: James LaSalle
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:58 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

I never wrote that.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


In a message dated 2/2/03 6:59:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> A Man's Republic for Men.

Of course we'd be in breech of title IX. But all the study grants that have
been refused are
partially because we allow women positions of authority in NR. It makes us
an imperfect model. However I am hopeful. The women here are educated
people, which of course
qualifies them to be magistrates. I'm hoping to prove that women in power
here in NR are as aggressive as males. If we can prove this, those
objections would have to be dropped.
We did have a rich man offer money. And he would have been a Plebeian. But
the dot com went bust and that ship has sailed.
Q. Fabius Maximus


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7674 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
In the words of Emeril: Bamm!!


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?





Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
As I join this debate I want you and everybody on this list to know up front that am doing so
ABSIT INVIDIA " LET ILL WII BE ABSENT"
I come to debate not to argue or to be argumentative

LSD>First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of having
a city where our citizens can live.
TGP then maybe we should change the goal.
LSD Our goal is similar to what the Catholic Church realized in 1929,
a small administrative forum that is the focus of the
Religio and our culture.
TGP When Italy was unified in 1860 they took over by CONQUEST and by the consent of a majority of Romans( the people who lived in the City of Rome) the territory of the Papal States, a political and religious entity that goes back into the middle ages. They did so again the fierce opposition of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Popes in power . The RCC held out the hope and aspiration to reclaim the Papal States from a united Italy from 1860 until 1929 when a Concordat was signed between Italy and the Catholic Church. This came about only because the RCC finally excepted that a united Italy was here to stay. The RCC took what it could get at this point and the was the Vatican City State
LSD> We wish to acquire at least
108 acres for this purpose. Once we acquire this land
it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
living quarters for those who want to relocate to the
forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair to
expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
realize that dream.
TGP>An administrative center that is bigger that an office building would require a City or town to offer services that the officials will need. Water, sewers, (electricity or gas?) even the office building would need these services. Are the magistrates of NR going to live in their office? No they're going to live in Roman like houses in a Roman like City or town. They will eat in restaurants that serve Roman food, by chefs trained at the Nova Roman Culinary Institute, one of the many private business that will establish themselves in the New Capital City of Nova Roma by Nova Romans.
( I intend to establish the culinary school in the city so nobody steal this name ok)
LSD> The Catholic Church has never had a goal of having
large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
The Vatican is the administrative center for Catholics
living all over the world.
TPG only by default, not by design of the Popes or the RCC
and the fact that The Vatican City State is located in the center of ROME a city of millions might also play a role ,further the people who help run/staff the Vatican City State all live , with one or two notable exceptions in the City of Rome. No need to import them.
Our goal is to achieve the
same status, an administrative center, not an
independent city.
TGP Why?
We hold CITIZENSHIP in Nova Roma! By definition citizens needs a City as in ancient Rome or in the modern world a Nation-State . Rome /The Vatican City State is the administrative center of the RCC and has been ( with the exception of the time the Popes lived in France ) for centuries .

LSD> Since we have citizens who wish to acquire land near
the forum, I have suggested that we attempt to acquire a
much larger plot of land than we need for the forum. I
Have suggested that we acquire 1000 acres, set aside 200
for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in one
acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
the purchase.
TGP no we sell the land at a reasonable mark up to fill the treasury of Nova Roma.
This will allow us to build the Temples and other Nova Roma building we would need. Like a museum on Roman culture and history, which will bring in the tourists that will again fill the treasury .
This will require a higher initial
outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
the treasury that can be used to start construction.
One thing has to be made clear though.
LSD These plots will not be part of a city of Nova Roma.
TGP Again I ask WHY?
LSD >They will belike owning land in the city of Roma near the Vatican,
they will remain under the control of some modern
nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.
TGP> Are you implying that Nova Roma can at sometime in the future, get land for the Forum that would have Sovereignty but not land next to it? Nova Roma can only get sovereignty by acquiring it from a political entity that already holds it.

LDS> As for the orders, they are needed to maintain the
ancient system of government, and there are some
offices in the Religio that are only open to
Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is not
only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
reason Nova Roma was founded.
TGP> In reality there are no citizens of Nova Roma that are TRUE physical decedents of the Patricians .You have embarked on a noble effort to re-establish the Roman religion. But because a thousand years or more has elapsed since it was last practiced any modifications you make to it would by nature make it NEW. We have women in new roles the Roman would not have allowed. What would the religious leaders of Ancient Rome say about these and other changes made to accommodate the 21st century?
Again with ABSIT INVIDIA
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen
Fortuna Favet Fortibus


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7675 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
"Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness to."

That would be the funniest thing I've ever read in here if it wasn't so pathetic.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public
figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the
Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some
collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Salve,

Interesting you should bring up the subject of finances, as they make an
excellent general example of the difficulties Nova Roma has faced.

At the founding, it was hoped that NR could fund itself through means other
than a direct membership fee. We wanted Nova Roma to be available to everyone
equally all over the world. The original idea was to fund Nova Roma through a
variety of means including the sales of government products, money from the
Ordo Equester, money generated by Roman events and festivals, charitable
donations, etc.

Unfortunately, after two years it became painfully obvious that no startup
volunteer organization could make such funding work. The Ordo Equester
remained very small (we only just now have nine vendors), and while the state
business endeavors were profitable, they could not be run at a high enough
level on the purely volunteer basis required. If we wanted to fund things
like land, events, charitable Roman endeavors, etc, members would need to
provide funding just as people do in pretty much all other organizations.

So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations make
all large endeavors difficult.)

When taxes were first proposed Nova Roma had almost a thousand people. The
idea raised almost a thousand separate violent opinions. The reaction ranged
the complete gamut, from "That's not enough, dues must be at least $45 per
person!", to "PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA, THE OPPRESSORS ARE OUT TO STEAL YOUR
MONEY! WE MUST ALL RISE UP IN REVOLT!" Such conflicting, empassioned
messages clogged the forums for weeks on end.

It was nearly impossible to find legal consensus among all the various
opinions and views. For every one person willing to pay the tax, there was
another who refused, and another *demanding* the tax structure must be
completely different, another who was furiously indignant that poorer
Citizens and our brothers and sisters in various countries might not be able
to pay, etc. etc.

Literally months of argument ensued. Citizens resigned. A trial tax program
was started in a provincia... and then the magistrates in that province
resigned, taking the money with them. Finally, after an insane amount of
fighting, a completely *voluntary* tax was put in place. Still more Citizens
resigned; they formed a separate Roman organization in a large part because
they claimed the NR government was being oppressive to its Citizens in daring
to try and fund the treasury. People still continue to argue about taxation
to this day. What say you, Citizens of Nova Roma? Would you each care to
share your individual ideas concerning NR taxation with Gaius Basilicatus
Agricola? ;)

Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that
they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness
to.

The magistrates and Senate of Nova Roma have the completely unenviable task
of having to reach something approximating 'general consensus' with *every
issue* that Nova Roma faces. We are a completely volunteer society, and our
government obviously has no real 'power' over the Citizens. The Comitiae make
the decisions, and there are always some who refuse to reconcile even with
those voted decisions.

Take yourself and the issue of Plebians and Patricians. I guarantee you the
vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow
of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No. Will you ever? I don't believe
so. If the Comitiae were to revote the issue and uphold the classes, would
you accept that vote? From what I've seen, my guess is still "no". I think
you consider the classes so unfair, the only possible solution in your world
is for us all to do what *you* demand.

There are people with the same passionate opinions as yours on *every issue*
that Nova Roma has ever faced, and who refuse to live with other
decisions/solutions no matter what the odds. Do you truly wonder why things
have not progressed as much as you wish?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus









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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7676 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve dearest Scorpio,

< Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States
herself, by the way < (but has Italian roots).

Yup, you're right, I even have some real Roman blood in my veins. My family
is from the west of Sicily (from Greece sometime even further back), which
is also where the Temple of Venus Erucina was. And as far as moving up the
classes, I will be 'officially' a Belgian in March. Mark your calendar for
the party!!!
Vale,
Diana Moravia



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7677 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
In a message dated 2/2/03 10:03:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
> 'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations
> make
> all large endeavors difficult.)
>
>

HA HA!
Cassius you are funny!

When the Senate started to discuss taxation under my and Marcus Minucius
consulship, we had Senators so incensed that they leaked the plan to people
even though discussion was sealed in an attempt to start on outcry against
it.
After we got that calmed down, Marcus Cassius who had been against the plan
from the beginning (remember all our e-mails, Cassius?) changed sides and
backed it. Which was a big plus to the pro dues/taxation side of the debate.

This finally brought F. Vedius into the fold.
Now, you might hate dues. But we need them. Because that is part one of any
plan to carry out our goals. To succeed in this world you need money. (Or
strong legiones which take money to raise. :-) )
And I can assure you citizens, the Senators are not taking this money for
home improvements, like some people suggested. Every penny invested in Rome
stays in Rome,
for Roman purposes.
I am glad that this question was raised. It gives me a chance to remind the
people that dues will soon be due. Last year I paid taxes for 6 friends. I
would have never done this if I did not believe in NR, and the eventual
accomplishment of our goals.
REMEMBER PAY YOUR DUES! The people that do are the first class citizens and
believe in Rome and her goals, in my opinion.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7678 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
In a message dated 2/2/03 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get Caesar's to
> sponsor us.

That is already underway. But we have a couple of problems that has to do
with our corporate status in order to get sponsors.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7679 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve Gaius,

> And we need a plan.

Yes, Nova Roma needs a plan, but this has already been given to the citizens. During the
last consular campaign, honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus has proposed a long term
plan that the citizens have largely approved.
You could read all the posts that have been sent during the campaign for reference.

Vale,



=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Consular Quaestor 2756 AUC
Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France -- French Translator
Scriba Explorator Primus et Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7680 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Salve Tiberius Galerius,

The Majority of Italians living under the rule of the
Papal states supported Liberation from the Pope's
direct rule. Secular feeling was very strong against
the Church. That is why there was no settlement of the
dispute over the Papal secular claims until Italy was
ruled by a Dictator who didn't have to worry about
popular opinion.

The chances of any nation recognizing our claims for
soverngity over an administrative forum are
execeedengly small. The chances that they will
recognize an actual new nation with large numbers of
citizens are nil.

If we become a sepratist movement, one advocating a
physical sovergin status we will come under close
observation by National police forces. Given the
violent actions that some sepratist movements have
turned to and today's political climate some of our
citizens could find themselves in legal trouble for
belonging to an organization with those goals.

There might be some third world nation in finical
trouble, or with a dictator who has expensive tastes
who would be willing to part with the soverngity of an
island for a price, but that price will be far higher
than just the land value. We are talking tens of
Millions, if not hundreds of Millions of dollars. Even
then the new nation will face an ever present danger
from people who feel Nova Roma has stolen part of
thier national heiratage. We could find ourselves in
the same postion as Isreal.

A Forum without sovergin status is an attainable goal
in the next few years. An independant nation will be
about as easy to achive as a Martian colony.

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
> As I join this debate I want you and everybody on
> this list to know up front that am doing so
> ABSIT INVIDIA
> " LET ILL WII BE ABSENT"
> I come to debate not to argue or to be argumentative
>
> LSD>First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of
> having
> a city where our citizens can live.
> TGP then maybe we should change the goal.
> LSD Our goal is similar to what the Catholic Church
> realized in 1929,
> a small administrative forum that is the focus of
> the
> Religio and our culture.
> TGP When Italy was unified in 1860 they took over
> by CONQUEST and by the consent of a majority of
> Romans( the people who lived in the City of Rome)
> the territory of the Papal States, a political and
> religious entity that goes back into the middle
> ages. They did so again the fierce opposition of the
> Roman Catholic Church and of the Popes in power .
> The RCC held out the hope and aspiration to reclaim
> the Papal States from a united Italy from 1860
> until 1929 when a Concordat was signed between Italy
> and the Catholic Church. This came about only
> because the RCC finally excepted that a united Italy
> was here to stay. The RCC took what it could get at
> this point and the was the Vatican City State
> LSD> We wish to acquire at least
> 108 acres for this purpose. Once we acquire this
> land
> it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
> living quarters for those who want to relocate to
> the
> forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
> desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair
> to
> expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
> realize that dream.
> TGP>An administrative center that is bigger that an
> office building would require a City or town to
> offer services that the officials will need. Water,
> sewers, (electricity or gas?) even the office
> building would need these services. Are the
> magistrates of NR going to live in their office? No
> they're going to live in Roman like houses in a
> Roman like City or town. They will eat in
> restaurants that serve Roman food, by chefs trained
> at the Nova Roman Culinary Institute, one of the
> many private business that will establish themselves
> in the New Capital City of Nova Roma by Nova Romans.
>
> ( I intend to establish the culinary school in the
> city so nobody steal this name ok)
> LSD> The Catholic Church has never had a goal of
> having
> large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
> The Vatican is the administrative center for
> Catholics
> living all over the world.
> TPG only by default, not by design of the Popes or
> the RCC
> and the fact that The Vatican City State is located
> in the center of ROME a city of millions might also
> play a role ,further the people who help run/staff
> the Vatican City State all live , with one or two
> notable exceptions in the City of Rome. No need to
> import them.
> Our goal is to achieve the
> same status, an administrative center, not an
> independent city.
> TGP Why?
> We hold CITIZENSHIP in Nova Roma! By definition
> citizens needs a City as in ancient Rome or in the
> modern world a Nation-State . Rome /The Vatican
> City State is the administrative center of the RCC
> and has been ( with the exception of the time the
> Popes lived in France ) for centuries .
>
> LSD> Since we have citizens who wish to acquire land
> near
> the forum, I have suggested that we attempt to
> acquire a
> much larger plot of land than we need for the forum.
> I
> Have suggested that we acquire 1000 acres, set aside
> 200
> for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in
> one
> acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
> the purchase.
> TGP no we sell the land at a reasonable mark up to
> fill the treasury of Nova Roma.
> This will allow us to build the Temples and other
> Nova Roma building we would need. Like a museum on
> Roman culture and history, which will bring in the
> tourists that will again fill the treasury .
> This will require a higher initial
> outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
> the treasury that can be used to start construction.
> One thing has to be made clear though.
> LSD These plots will not be part of a city of Nova
> Roma.
> TGP Again I ask WHY?
> LSD >They will belike owning land in the city of
> Roma near the Vatican,
> they will remain under the control of some modern
> nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.
> TGP> Are you implying that Nova Roma can at
> sometime in the future, get land for the Forum that
> would have Sovereignty but not land next to it?
> Nova Roma can only get sovereignty by acquiring it
> from a political entity that already holds it.
>
> LDS> As for the orders, they are needed to maintain
> the
> ancient system of government, and there are some
> offices in the Religio that are only open to
> Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
> Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is
> not
> only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
> reason Nova Roma was founded.
> TGP> In reality there are no citizens of Nova Roma
> that are TRUE physical decedents of the Patricians
> .You have embarked on a noble effort to re-establish
> the Roman religion. But because a thousand years or
> more has elapsed since it was last practiced any
> modifications you make to it would by nature make it
> NEW. We have women in new roles the Roman would not
> have allowed. What would the religious leaders of
> Ancient Rome say about these and other changes made
> to accommodate the 21st century?
> Again with ABSIT INVIDIA
> Vale
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen
> Fortuna Favet Fortibus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7681 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
Salvete citizens,

Lately I have been thinking very hard on ways to speed up the election
process of the Plebeian magistrates. I have a *very simple* idea for the
run-off elections, which I am posting here for discussions sake. If there is
positive feedback, I will write it up officially as a Plebiscite and the
Comitia Plebis Tributa can vote on it during the next run-off election which
will take place within the next 4 weeks.

According to the LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM "In
the case of a magisterial election, candidates must receive votes from at
least 18 of the 35 tribes in order to win"

And now some numbers: those of you who hate numbers, read only what is
between the ***'s.

With each run-off election, interest decreases. This makes it more and more
difficult for any magistrate to win the required 18 Tribes in order be
elected. Using the Tribune elections as my example:

Main Election of Nov 2755: Of 35 Tribes, 34 voted, 18 are needed to win the
election
First run off of Dec 2755 : Of 35 tribes, 29 voted; 18 are needed to win.
Second run-off of Jan 2756: of 35 tribes, 24 voted, 18 are needed to win.

As you can see, it is very difficult for a candidate to win 18 tribes if
only 24 vote.
If the above pattern continues, the third run-off would have only 19 voting
tribes making in pretty impossible for any candidate to receive the required
18 tribes to win. (34 voting tribes, then 29 voting, then 24 voting, down
to possibly 19) the next election

***My idea is the following:

Keep the rules for the first election as they are (re the above mentioned
LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM).

For the run-off elections of Plebeian magistrates, I propose that the
required number of tribes needed to win should equal half the number of
voting Tribes plus 1 to give the majority.

In this last election, 24 Tribes voted. Half of that is 12 plus 1 to give
the majority = 13.
Lucius Didius Geminius Sceptius won 13 tribes
Gaius Modius Athanasius won 13 tribes

If my idea had been in effect for the last run-off we would now have our 5
Tribunes instead of the need for at least one more run-off election to fill
the remaining 2 vacant positions. ***

There is already precedent for additional rules to be applied to Plebeian
magistrates during run-off elections. See the LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN
COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBVTA. My proposal would be in addition to the
above-mentioned Lex Salicia.

Comments, constructive criticism and feedback is welcomed.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7682 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
>

<snipped>


> Appoint a commission. Do what you do. Give us plan. Show us the
way. Lead us.


Oh, take the DECENVIROS/DECENVIRS back! (Damn you, Appius Claudius!
The historical one, I mean!)


Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7683 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Maybe I can help.


Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)


In a message dated 2/2/03 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@... writes:


> Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get Caesar's to
> sponsor us.

That is already underway. But we have a couple of problems that has to do
with our corporate status in order to get sponsors.

Q. Fabius Maximus


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7684 From: James LaSalle Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
Congratulations!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?


Salve dearest Scorpio,

< Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States
herself, by the way < (but has Italian roots).

Yup, you're right, I even have some real Roman blood in my veins. My family
is from the west of Sicily (from Greece sometime even further back), which
is also where the Temple of Venus Erucina was. And as far as moving up the
classes, I will be 'officially' a Belgian in March. Mark your calendar for
the party!!!
Vale,
Diana Moravia



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7685 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
I can help too! If the idea of a production company tickles anyones
elses fancy, I can offer my experience as a theater costume
designer. This is a serious offer.

Arnamentia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Maybe I can help.
>
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
> Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: qfabiusmaxmi@a...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
>
>
> In a message dated 2/2/03 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jlasalle@k... writes:
>
>
> > Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get
Caesar's to
> > sponsor us.
>
> That is already underway. But we have a couple of problems that
has to do
> with our corporate status in order to get sponsors.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7686 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
> I will be 'officially' a Belgian in March.

Go, girl! Congratulations!

Arnamentia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7687 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Meritocracy & other stuff
Salve Gaius Basilicatus Agricola,

<What I propose is an equal starting point where those who want to achieve
and serve will rise. A <meritocracy.
A meritocracy is exactly what we have in Nova Roma. The Plebeians do have an
edge in this in that they can serve in an additional 2 positions, can prove
themselves faster and rise faster (if this is what they want). The
magistrates are elected because the people see that someone is active (for
example, as an appointed Scriba) and so vote for them to hold an office. The
Senators are appointed for precisely the same reason (work first, titles
later). The Pat/Pleb thing is and always has been a non-issue. I originally
joined NR in Aug 1999 and didn't realize until Oct 2002 that I was a
Plebeian (I know: duh).

Plans: We regularly have people making plans or proposing new ideas (for
example S. Apollonius mentioned the official plan of C Fabius and G. Modius
mentioned his local group idea). It is very difficult to get one's ideas
implemented here-- things take time. The key phrase here would be 'you can
please some of the people all of the time but all of the people none of the
time). Nova Roma has accomplished a lot in five years: so we are getting
there bit by bit.

And you're absolutely right, we need money! And so I hope that when the tax
season is announced everyone will pay, even if it's only a few dollars.
Every little bit helps. Most of us learn a lot in Nova Roma and this saves
each of us the need to buy certain books or even take a course or two. The
least we could all do is pay our taxes!

Off topic stuff:
<Congratulations!
Thanks! Even though I can understand Dutch fluently, I still have a whopper
of an accent when I speak it. Even worse, when I visit my old neighborhood
in NYC, I constantly am told 'ya tork funny' and then asked if I am
Canadian. So most times I feel like a woman without a macronational country,
rather than a citizen of 2. Jeeez...

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7688 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: A Plan
For those who believe that "A Plan" is necessary, may I respectfully
suggest that you develop your idea of a plan and submit it to the Senate
for thier review and approval. Such is the way we do things in Nova
Roma.

Ideas are fine, but those who undertake to further a project other than
simply to talk about it, are even more valuable.

In regard to a physical place for Nova Roma, over the years many ideas
have been submitted, some not very well thought out, and some were quite
valuable. There is a List for subsequent discussion of this subject,
and in the Sodalitas Egressus there is a fairly complete list of the
above suggestions as gathered by Dominus Praefectus Serapio of the
Sodalitas Egressus, for anyone to utilize in "Establishing or Developing
a Plan" for this particular concern.

Each of us in Nova Roma have our share of available time to spend here,
and our interests, concerns, responsibilities and projects to pursue. I
think it a little silly to try to push others into a given idea or
project unless they want to go, particularly by message. I respectfully
suggest that those interested in sch a project, put thier heads
together, develop a plan suitable to yourselves, based on your ideas,
abilities and time available and set it out for other here to review.

I too have some small experience is the study of Anciet History as have
many of my Nova Roma friends, but I have found that for the most part
extensive study in an area that is of interest to an individual, has a
tendency, in most scholars, to do two things:

--The first is to create within the individual, the rrealization of just
how much that is NOT known ablout the subject, and a strong desire to
read or study, in a variety of ways, everything that is known about the
subject; Primary sources are particlarly valuable , but recent
archealogical studies have proven to be much more reliable that a period
writer who had some sort of axe to grind in the ancient world.

--The second is the development of a modesty about one's knowledge and
abilities in the said topic.

Of course, not everyone is able to see these two attributes, let alone
recognize them, but I find them very valuable in working with others, as
they go a long way toward making the advanceent of an idea or enterprise
smoother and more enjoyable for all concerned.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audesn

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7689 From: Chantal G. Whittington Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Quo Vadis?
Gaius Basilicatus--I have found you somewhat abrasive
at times, but this was well said. It's a hard truth,
and people should give it a hard look and consider
what it is that we really want Nova Roma to be.

Do we really want to be a landed micronation, or are
we content to pretend?

If we really want to be a micronation, Agricola is
right; it will take money and dedication from all.

If we're content to let the micronation be a nice
fantasy, but not really attainable, then we continue
the way we're going, with a large percentage of the
citizenry not paying taxes and being outraged at the
very idea that they should even be asked to
contribute.

If every single citizen paid their taxes, we would
have a treasury of approximately US$12,720.00. I
arrived at that figure by counting in 1600 citizens at
$12/each.

I am aware that citizens from countries with a lower
per capita income than the US are taxed at a lower
rate. At the moment, we have more than 1600 citizens,
if I recall correctly.

Of that $12,720.00, at least $6,360.00 would go bact
to the provincial governments. I don't know how our
charitable donations are allocated, but there should
be enough left in the remaining $6,000.00 or so to
invest in a decent stock portfolio to enable our Land
Fund to grow at a useful rate.

I didn't join Nova Roma for a fantasy. If I had
wanted a fantasy, I would have renewed my membership
in the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Tax season is almost upon us. Who's with me?

---
Renata Corva

Agricola said:
Your description of the tax situation is hilarious. If
that is truly the state of things here, then there is
no hope. You can't do squat without money. If you
can't raise money, then one certainly can't handle it,
even if someone throws it in your lap. I've belonged
to cheapskate organizations before, and have left in
disgust. If we can't agree that we need money, and
lots of it, to implement even the most basic goals,
then we're doomed.

My law practice has taken off. I'm doing well now but
I'll never forget the slim times. It was tough in the
begining. Many a day when the phone didn't ring and I
didn't know what would happen to me. I tried to office
out of my house;clients want to come to an office, so
I finagled an office. I had a crappy computer at the
office, and it wasted more time than it saved me, so I
got a new computer. The same with fax, credit card
machine, etc. I devised new marketing schemes, joined
organizations to increase my contacts, and kissed a
lot of hind ends. And many a sleepless nights
wondering if I had advised a client correctly, if we
would win or lose, should we have gone to trial? I
aged twenty years in five. Prosecuting was a party
compared to private practice.


I'm not bragging. I'm not outrageously wealthy. But I
have a fervent belief that hard work without money,
guts, and risk taking is just a bunch of hard work,
usually to someone else's benefit. If some members
here don't want to give money to their elected
government, take some risks, and do some hard work,
then they have no faith in Nova Roma or themselves. I
do. If I rub some some people in here the wrong way, I
could care less. We need a plan, and we need money.
Otherwise, whats the point?



=====
Chantal
http://www.theranweyr.org

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7690 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Gens Minucia
H. Minucia Caesar;

What a very very nice message regarding the subject Gens. I am very
pleased that you have found such pleasure in our Roman family. It is in
fact as you know a small Gens, and generally speaking the members have
indicated that they are individuals in thier ideas and interests, and
have also indicated a polite demeanor to all on the whole, which is also
pleasing to me, but more importantly, in my view, to the adopted
anchestor who we all recognize as a worthy and dedicated gentleman, who
served his nation, and gained a vocation in doing so. We know that he
must have had friends and/or family who saw to his funeral altar, and
that his service to his legion was honorable.

If such can be said of me when my task here is finished. I shall be
quietly content.

I am pleased to hear your very kind words, and I wish you all the best
in your endeavors.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Paterfamilius -- Gens Minucia

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7691 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
Salve Illustra Tribuna!

I have had the same thoughts about the Comitia Centuriata. I expect
to present a proposal for that Comitia in the end of this month.

>Salvete citizens,
>
>Lately I have been thinking very hard on ways to speed up the election
>process of the Plebeian magistrates. I have a *very simple* idea for the
>run-off elections, which I am posting here for discussions sake. If there is
>positive feedback, I will write it up officially as a Plebiscite and the
>Comitia Plebis Tributa can vote on it during the next run-off election which
>will take place within the next 4 weeks.

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7692 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
Salve Senior Consul,

< I have had the same thoughts about the Comitia Centuriata. I expect
< to present a proposal for that Comitia in the end of this month.
Great! It's nice to know that I am on the right track :-) I'm looking
forward to reading your proposal especially since it will cover all
elections and not just the Plebeian magistrates.

And to those who doubt, there are lots of us filled with good ideas to
improve many different aspects of Nova Roma. While changes may not happen in
overnight, we are getting there little by little!

Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7693 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: female magistrates in NR
Salve Q Fabius Maximus,

>I'm hoping to prove that women in power here in NR are as aggressive as
males.

And how will you prove that pray tell? I am wondering if you meant 'active'
(which is easily proven or not proven) rather than aggressive.

Women in positions of responsibility are always have to be on their guard in
a world which still belongs to the men: this includes Nova Roma. Aggressive
women are often disliked by both men and their fellow women: some men feel
threatened; some submissive type women are jealous that they personally
don't have any figurative male sex organs like the aggressive woman seems to
have.

I like the word 'assertive' better than aggressive.

When a woman is as assertive as a man, she is called a bitch.
If she is kind, she is a weak female.
If she is emotional, she is accused of having PMS.
If she is too friendly, she is 'easy'.
If she is not physically attractive and is assertive, it gets downright
nasty: she'll be accused of being of bitch because she doesn't have a sex
partner...

We can't win! Speaking for myself, I am constantly rethinking my emails so
as not to appear too 'anything' because I am concerned about the opinions
of 1600 citizens and I don't want to step on any of their 16000 toes. Ok
well just a few of them maybe :-)

Vale,
Diana Moravia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7694 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
With respect to the oft repeated claim that we need a plan, I
commend to you all

http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/index.html

That is the homepage for our current Senior Consul, Caeso
Fabius Quintilianus. You can read his platform there, see
what his vision for the future is, look at his published
edicts, and send him questions.

There is a plan. People are working on it.

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7695 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
What follows has to do with my scientific opinion of something, and
is not intended as any kind of disregard for anybody. The lady
whose post I'm commenting on has established herself as a very
fine addition to our micronation in the short time she's been here,
and I mean absolutely no disrespect for her in what follows.


Octavia Fabia Scriba writes:

> According to Jungian personality types as related to the MBTI
> (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), ancient Rome was ESTJ

I should point out here that while there are any number of
websites which offer to explain the Myers-Briggs types and the
underlying Jungian model, these "personality types" are not accepted
as particularly useful or valid categories by today's psychologists.

(I note here that I am not a psychologist, I'm a physicist and
astronomer, and so my information comes from what I've gleaned
via friends and colleagues.)

The particular problem with the MBTI is that the four axes of
identification have been shown to lack independence from each
other. But beyond that, the entire Jungian school of psychology
has had its underlying assumptions called into question.

Beyond that, I question any effort to import a "composite
personality index" to an entire culture. It smacks of the
same false assumptions which led to the 19th century beliefs
in cultural evolution, giving us the "white man's burden" and
any number of other falacies.

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7696 From: Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: female magistrates in NR
> I'm hoping to prove that women in power here in NR are as
> aggressive as males.

Your position would perpetuate the fallacy of shine, as though men were
aggressive for aggressiveness' sake. Men are aggressive, of course, not
in the immediate lust for ascendancy, but in the pursuit of effective
leadership.

There is no "look at me" among men; no "me, too".

- Pitrinius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7697 From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
Sp. Postumius Quiritibus et Marco Cassio Juliano Patri S.P.D.

Salvete,

I took notes on what you said, Marce Cassi, while my educational processes were continuing by exploding chemicals today, and, after
a long day, I can finally reply to your wise words.

I should like to simply comment only on the points you made regarding the goals set at the Founding. I think your other words speak
for themself. (I would like to offer to put my money where C. Basilicatus has his mouth regarding what you replied to (not preserved
herein for the sake of brevity), but I do not have any money to put there!)

> I. INDIVIDUALS - (....) Our most basic ideal is
> that Romanitas is worth exploring, learning and preserving, and that a life
> which includes Romanitas is more interesting and meaningful.

Agreed. Romanitas is indeed worh exploring, and more, and I must say that my life has become more meaningful since I have added what
Romanitas I may to my life.

> Thoughts on overall achievement: Most things in Nova Roma are hoped to lead
> toward this goal. List discussion, Sodalitas groups, Provincial community,
> festivals and events, participation in the Religio, political participation,
> etc. can help bring a greater sense of Romanitas - if we allow them to.

As stupid or antagonistic as this may seem to be, I must ask: How might we 'allow them to'? I have no answers to this, but I hope
you do.

> Specifics: Additional sodalitas groups (and supporting the ones we have)
> might be helpful. There are many aspects of Roman life and culture that have
> no official 'place' for focus and gaining more Citizen interests, and the
> places we do have, such as the cooking and poetry sodalitiae, are not given
> much official attention/encouragement. This is a place where we could learn
> from the "guilds" in the SCA, even if our intent is somewhat 'deeper' as far
> as incorporation into daily life.

And again, how might we support the ones we have? Let me just say, before I do seem antagonistic, that I am most certainly all for
these ideas, I just am not exactly sure of how to make them work, or even how they hypothetically could work.

> II. FAMILIAE & HOUSEHOLDS
(...)
> Thoughts on overall achievement: As with individuals, many of the aspects of
> Nova Roma are intended to encourage Romanitas within the household and
> family. Here local participation and group involvement becomes even more
> important, as they are more easily shared than email.

I believe C. Modius (though I may be wrong) brought up the idea of colonies, municipia, poloi, etc. Perhaps we should take a second
look at this, and figure out how to make it work for this purpose.

> Specifics: Roman commerce can also a part here as well
> - the more Roman goods are available, the more 'Roman' a household can seem.
> Encouraging the Ordo Equester might be a helpful thing.

I most certainly agree. Unfortunately, I have neither the funds nor the knowledge to start up my own business. But if Nova Roma inc.
can raise up the funds, would it be possible for her to engage upon some business enterprises as well? Also, I realize that the
current minimum for contribution from the Ordo Equester is five percent gross or ten percent of the total profit margin. Would it be
more adventageous to set a conditional statement rather than a percentage (e.g. either $1000 US or ten percent of the total profit
margin? (maybe not $1000, but the idea is apparent))? I am not a businessman, so I could not say one way or the other on this. It
just happens to be an idea.

> III. PROVINCIAE
(...)
> Thoughts on overall achievement: Our Provincial Praetors, and their Legates,
> are intended first and foremost to be 'contact people' and local
> coordinators. It is in them that the trust is put that local events will
> happen whenever there are enough people to allow it, that information gets
> disseminated on the local level, citizens become encouraged locally, etc.
> Local organization and participation is critical. Consuls, Senators, etc. can
> only do so much on the state level... folks have to be out there organizing
> and hosting local events, putting out flyers, and much more.

Again, would it be advantageous for us to set a minimum activity level for the governors to uphold (e.g. one formal gathering per
year) to encourage an increased activity level. I know that there are some governors who already try for this, some that even exceed
this, and I also realize that putting on an event is not always easy, but participation and face-to-face atmospheric gatherings are
necessitated for the growth of Nova Roma. If we are not here for Her growth, what are we here for? To role-play?

> Specifics: There may be many more things that the 'State' could do to assist
> growth of and participation within the Provinciae. Closer support of Praetors
> and Legates, providing more resources (such as flyers, websites, etc.)
> assistance with gatherings and more are possible. All of our Citizens are
> more likely to be active if they have the chance to participate in live
> events, local groups, etc. This is another place where we could learn from
> the SCA. Their local Provinces have scheduled meetings, public classes,
> events, etc. Local leadership might even be better coordinated. For instance,
> there is a Provincial Praetors list which not all Praetors belong to, no
> provincial legates belong to, and no one else in government belongs to. The
> only communication between the state and local branches are by individual
> emails, or on the main list.

Fully agreed to. Only one comment, on the phrase regarding public classes. Perhaps we should put this in with the idea of local
groups, that a minimum meeting limit must be maintained, and it is within the duty of the governor to ensure this minimum is met by
all local groups. Again, an idea.

> IV: THE 'STATE' GOVERNMENT
(...)
> Thoughts on overall achievement: Many duties are expected of magisterial
> offices, yet there seem to be few resources to support them. As yet Nova Roma
> has put little into either training or support, leaving our officers to sink
> or swim. (Much the same problems as our Provincial officers face.) It is
> little wonder that it is not unusual for our volunteer officers to 'burn out'
> or fade away. We might benefit from more direction toward good service, and
> more reward for service well done.

Any ideas on the training and support section?

> Specifics: Nova Roma might well benefit from returning to the idea of
> 'magisterial handbooks' available online for our officers, and from our
> magistrates using the "NR Magistrates list" to discuss problems and find
> common solutions. Also, we should have a way of recognizing work well done by
> *anyone*, both magistrates and private Citizens, on behalf of Nova Roma.

Though I realize that not every Censor may care to read it, Sulla has made a Censor's Handbook. As you say, Pater Juliane, perhaps
we would benefit from more of this sort of thing. They may not always be the best material for success in an office, but at worst it
will always give officers something to work with.

> V. LAND AND PROPERTY
(...)
> Thoughts on overall achievement:
(...)
> (And, to be honest, the founding documents do not say that
> our 108 acres should be our first, or even only land holding.)

So, let me go back to something Senator Drusus said. He mentioned getting a larger plot of land, and selling what is left from our
forum plans to citizens (I would like to expand this to businessmen (foreign and domestic)). Perhaps we should look into this as
well. Or perhaps buying land one acre at a time. Or even, (bad idea, I realize) being that we are international, buying space
wherever we can get it, and putting whatever the Senate decides upon in those places.

> Specifics: The Senate should approach the issue of land, much as it was
> finally forced to approach the issue of taxation.

YES! Full agreement again here!

> Land will continue to be a
> divisive issue until we set a firm goal as to if we really want land or not,
> and if so, exactly what type we're looking for. Then Nova Roma can work
> toward a goal. Perhaps this could begin with an official call for specific
> 'plans' to be submitted for voting, the Senate could then choose the best few
> for voting by the Comitiae.

I like this. Perhaps the Senate, whenever they are ready, could begin with an official call for specific 'plans' to be submitted
for, at least, review, and perhaps even voting. But I think the People should at least get to look at all the proposals, even if
they do not get to vote on all of them. If nothing else, a group of citizens can take the pros of a group of plans and put them
together to submit a new 'plan' to the Senate for review. Again, an idea.

> VI. SOVEREIGN STATUS
(...)
> Specifics: We can certainly make plans to build our culture and
> infrastructure, and we can plan toward an administrative and religious world
> capital.

Precisely! I think we should start with the culture and infrastructure, then move to the administrative and religious. This way, we
don't have a capital with no infrastructure. We can have infrastructure without a capital, but it is almost (if not entirely)
necessary for us to have infrastructure before a capital.

> VI. THE RELIGIO ROMANA
(...)
> The second was to restore the worship of the Roman Gods as a living faith,
> meaningful and growing, among individuals through private spirituality and
> worship.

I realize that some of our sacerdotes are charged with this duty, but how about having some people who would otherwise not like to
be a sacerdos work as scribes (or something, I am unsure what to call them) with the duty of researching the worship of a specific
diety or cults of the Ancients, etc. Perhaps, again, requiring a minimum limit of literature that must come from each priesthood?

> Specifics: The Religio Romana in Nova Roma has reached a point where the
> basic foundations have been laid, and further growth is needed. More teaching
> materials, more opportunities for public ritual, and additional activity
> overall have been common requests. To this end, the Collegium Pontificum has
> recently been presented with a list of the tasks that need to be done, and an
> opportunity for each Pontiff to choose what they prefer to work on. Once that
> is done the rest of the Priesthood will get a similar opportunity.

I think this goes back to the point I made before, that perhaps a minimum literary publication should be instituted to remain in a
position of religious authority.

----

To end, I would like to say that this is all my opinion, but I have indeed been sincere and serious in all that I have said, and I
hope you all will consider it deeply. Also, I would like to thank you, Pater Marce Cassi, for your infinite wisdom and guidance, and
to thank both yourself and Fl. Vedius for founding this nation which I so love.

Optime Valete in Pace Sui Aeterna,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus

Retiarius, Scriba, Citizen, Accensus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7698 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-03
Subject: Latin Dictionary Software
Salve,
If anyone is interested in a Latin Dictionary go to
http://www.ultralingua.com they have that and other
Languages available in Mac/Windows/Palm formats. I
have downloaded a demo version. The non-demo one
will cost $29.95(for my Mac iBook).


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Mac OSX iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie
YahooMsgr: iguard2
MSN Msgr: WyrdCharlie
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7699 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: America Medioccidentalis Superior Announcement's
Salvete Omnes,
I find I am going to need a new Provincial Webmaster and will need a
new Legate Major for
Regio Silvestris. Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
has stepped down as Legate Major for Regio Silvestris
and as Provincial webmaster. Any Citizen living in
the Regio who is interested in either position can
e-mail me privately.


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Propraetor--America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Factio Praesina

iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7700 From: Gaius Galerius Peregrinator Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Quo Vadis?
...With respect to the oft repeated claim that we need a plan, I
commend to you all

http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------
Salvete

Can anybody explain to me, when I click the above web site from the post
it opens it, but if I type it in my search space it does not find the site.
And I could only log into it by clicking it from the post.

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.



_________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7701 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: How To Get Free Media/Press Coverage for Your Nova Roma Project
How To Get Free Media/Press Coverage for Your Nova Roma Project

By: Octavia Fabia Scriba

Perhaps you have a project or product about ancient Rome that's
educational and you'd like to make people aware of, but need wide
media coverage. How can you easily launch your project or product in
the media without cost to you? Do you write frequently about ancient
Rome or similar subjects and want to launch your project in the
media and attract the attention of the press? Here are some media
techniques that worked immediately for me with my mystery novels and
nonfiction books and can work for your Nova Roma project or novel on
ancient Rome.
Normally the media wouldn't ask the time of day from a print-
on-demand paperback author who didn't spend a dime on promotion or
have any income. As a home-based nearly blind senior citizen,
there's no way I could do public speaking or book signings and talk
to the public, but I needed free media coverage on my novels. For
you, this could be your novels on ancient Rome or any other project
or product.
First I interviewed experts who wanted free publicity for
their products and made myself available as a customer interested in
being interviewed by the press about what I thought of the products.
It's done in marketing research all the time, and if the press
wanted my opinion of any company's product I'd used, I volunteered
to tell the media what I thought of the product—that I found it
satisfactory and would buy it again, that is, if it lived up to its
promises, which it did in the products I purchased.
I found it easier to work with the media to publicize someone
else's product or project in order to mention to the media that I
just happened to write books myself and pointed out the title of my
book and how it was related to the product I had enjoyed.
In the last two years, 30 books I wrote were published all
paperback print on demand. So there was no chance the media would
have the slightest interest in my books unless I mentioned it as a
side thing to the real story for which they interviewed me to get—
which was why I liked a particular company's product on the cutting
edge of technology.
You, too can use this to get free press coverage for almost
anything you're working on for Nova Roma. I began my quest to find a
suitable project or product to publicize for free by interviewing
various experts, scientists, historians, genealogists, authors, and
owners of companies who eagerly wanted free press attention and good
publicity at no cost to them or to me. I volunteered to write an
article about their product for their Web site after I used it and
was happy with it, and let them know the article would be available
to the press. I made sure to let them know that I'd be available for
an email interview by the media anytime.
The deal I made with the companies is that I'd use their
product and then tell the media what I really thought of it as a
customer. Then when the press asked me what I did or who I was, I
mentioned that I'm an author and showed them my latest books.
This strategy works well with disseminating history
education materials to the public or to educators. The owners of the
companies also put my article on their Web site in exchange for me
agreeing to be interviewed by the press regarding my experience as a
customer for their company.
I use this strategy and similar techniques to obtain free
media coverage for any book I write. It's combined with
volunteerism. It works this way. I tell the press good things about
the product of a company when I've used the product and believe the
product is great. And in turn, they refer the press to me for an
interview about their product.
During the interview, I can when asked what I do, then inform
the press I write books and show them the cover of any or all of my
books. The press mentions my book in the interview, and I get free
coverage for various titles relevant to the product being discussed.
So in Nova Roma, if you have a project or product, a video, art
work, historical materials for education, or whatever, it can work
the same with individuals or with a group.
So in order to get the media to contact me instead of me
always asking the media for attention here's my strategy. First I
contacted three companies and purchased their products. I chose the
one company that best fulfilled my requirements and highly praised
also the other three who also did a great job. I wrote them that I
highly recommended the three test products that I purchased from
three different companies. Of the three, usually there was one
company that had exactly what I required.
I wrote to that company that its product is the best, of the
three I've tested, and it is--because it answered the question I
wanted answered, or it provided the results I wanted, or solved the
problem I needed solved. This could be done with almost any product,
project, learning materials, plays, or books. It could be done with
anything offered in Nova Roma from education to publications,
products to projects. You might even try an audio play online.
Then I asked the company's owner to contact its marketing
manager in order to send the press to me whenever the corporation
needed a satisfied customer to tell the press why I was satisfied
with the company's merchandise. The company's owner and marketing
manager both liked the idea.
I went to the owner first, and he contacted his marketing
manager who dealt with me next. I agreed to tell the press my
experiences. I made sure the press knows that the reason why I
tested the three companies by purchasing their products was to find
out more background for my two books, one a mystery novel, and the
other, a sequel nonfiction how-to book based on some of the
background plot of my novel.
When I settled on working with the company that gave me the
most pertinent information to help me write my novel and my
nonfiction book, I also managed to get a good quote from that
company for my nonfiction book. In any case, it resulted in the
marketing manager of the selected company emailing me whether it
would be okay to send a CBS reporter to me, among other press people
over a span of time. I said yes, have the reporter email me to
discuss details of my experiences with the product.
I said, of course I wanted to give email interviews to the
media. I told the marketing manager to have the media contact email
me to discuss details and experiences.
Had I contacted the press myself to review or write about my
book or me, I would most likely have been ignored, being a print on
demand paperback author of 30 books without funds to pay for
promotions or publicity from a book publicist. Most reporters who
might have responded would have asked for a press review copy of the
book, and I can't afford to buy copies of my book from the print on
demand publisher as I have no income and am a senior citizen based
at home in and out of my wheelchair and with sight only in one eye.
Also, being speech impaired somewhat, I'm not going to give lectures
or attract a live audience to hear the plays I write.
Many print-on-demand publishers do not send out free press
review copies. An author pays for each copy. I had to find a way to
get my book into the media without it costing me to buy copies of my
own book and give them away to reporters who might toss them,
ignored. I also couldn't afford to hire a publicist. There had to be
a way to get free media coverage up front as I wrote about my actual
experiences with a product I discussed in my nonfiction book where
scientists and others comment on the subject of the book as a tool,
which was based in part on my novel.
I had to find a way to get free media coverage with credible
backing, and there's power in numbers. So if numbers mean so much,
Nova Roma should have a field day with the media and the various
societies of professional journalists. The numbers consisted of the
three companies which I highly praised as they deserved. All did a
great job. I picked the last company because the CEO invented a
certain test that the other companies use successfully.
In any case, the outcome was free publicity from the media
on a continuing basis as the marketing manager of that one selected
company for the time being sends me reporters to discuss my
experiences with that company's product offering. Experiences would
include why I chose to deal with the company, what I purchased, and
why.
Each time I expressed my satisfaction with the company and
highly praise it, as it well deserves for a good product, I also get
to mention to the press the last two of my books, fiction and
nonfiction. My nonfiction book is based on the premise of my mystery
novel, but with facts to help people understand the topic of my book
and other help topics.
This is one way I can think of today to get wide media
attention with the effort of the marketing manager of another
company, since there would be no way I could afford to pay a
publicist to do the same for me. So to help other writers or
historians out there, find some product related to mentioning Roman
history. Make sure you're really happy with the product and find out
why you're satisfied.
Contact a company. Be happy with the product and tell them
why it worked best for you. Perhaps you can suggest to the owner to
let his/her marketing manager refer the press/media to you for
interviews on that Nova Roma-related product. Mention your project
or book if it's related to the product as my two books are. I've
never earned any money with all this publicizing, but at least I got
a color photo of my book cover in a major daily newspaper and a
summary of what the thing is about.
This also works well for writers with books or educational
materials about or set in ancient Rome who mention a lot of food
items and cooking. It also works for projects involving ancient
recipes, clothing, animals, antiques, investments, sports products,
or other tangible items related to re-creation of ancient Rome's
history, laws, ideas, architecture, politics, or other projects.
This works best for me with my contemporary and historical
mystery novels that deal with the tangible item, such as a recipe,
and not too well with projects dealing with abstract items such as
ideas or advertising. You publicize a company for free and they
refer reporters to you to publicize them, but then you mention your
own project or book and get press coverage too. Maybe this strategy
will be useful for anybody creating art or educational materials,
novels, or whatever related to Nova Roma or ancient Rome as an
educational tool for the public
***
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7702 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Just wondering why are the ancient Roman provinces of the South end
of the Mediterranean missing? We have Panonia/Poland, Spain,
Romania,Portugal, Sarmatia Italy, Turkey, Thule Germania,
etc.....How come there's no Greece, Armenia (except in Brazil)
Carthage, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Syria, Babylonia, Persia, or Egypt or
Lebanon (Phoenecia) or Cyprus? I don't see any Assyrians or Greeks
in the Nova Roma provinces, or didn't I look close enough? The whole
south half of the Mediterranean that once were under ancient Rome as
colonies are missing. Anyone from these countries or former colonies
a Nova Roman? How come?

Re: Sarmatia: Russia. The Roman army brought hundreds of Sarmatian
soldiers into Britain and settled them there. These peoples came
from the south part of Russia, but spoke an Iranic language.

Also, Aren't there any Middle Eastern countries in Nova Roma? Just
wondering. Also, the Roman way of life has been picked up by
Silhoutte Romances. My favorite author, Merline Lovelace has a great
romance novel that just came out again--it was brought back into
publication from the first edition of 1994, about a Roman Centurion
and his Air Force pilotlady brought by time travel to the world of
ancient Romans. In demand now by publishers--romance novels set in
ancient Rome and time-travel novels that take place mostly in
ancient Rome. So you people who write romance novels, not only
mystery novels like my favorite Steven Saylor novels such as Arms of
Nemisis, now a screenplay (seeking production), but the theme of
ancient Rome crosses genres.

In any case, now that I'm retired as a former English/journalism
university educator, I've lined up a half dozen novels on ancient
Rome to read. I looked forward to this retirement for a long time so
I can read all these books, including Tacitus and Plutarch. Anyone
suggest any other books? I have almost the entire ancient Roman
world in my own ancestry--Roman, Greek, Armenian, Sicilian,
Karelian, and who knows what else. Thanks.

Octavia Fabia Scriba
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7703 From: biojournalism Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Caesar's Palace in Reno?
Why not consider a convention also in Caesar's Palace in Reno? It
might get more people who don't like the traffic and smog in Vegas.
Just a thought. It's right next to Tahoe ski country or lake.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7704 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Appointment of Legate Major
Salvete Omnes,
With pleasure I announce the appointment of Gaius
Basilicatus Agricola as Legate Major for Regio Campus
of America Medioccidentalis Superior Province. I am
sure he will serve the Province and Nova Roma well.

Valete,


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Propraetor--America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Factio Praesina

iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie
YahooMsgr: iguard2
MSN Msgr: WyrdCharlie
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7705 From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Salve!
I highly recommend Petronius and Apuleius. It is a lot of fun to read them,
and you are closer to the majority of the romans.
Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7706 From: Daniel Dreesbach Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Public Dioscuri Ritual, Monday, Jan 27th
How does a Nova ROman learn how to be a priest/follower of the Dioscuri
cassius622@... wrote:Salvete,

It has been a while since a ritual has been publicly posted to the lists for
Citizens to share in. It is my hope that this year it can be done on a
regular basis, so that all those interested in the Religio may practice
together even while separated geographically.

Some members of the priesthood and myself intend to do a ritual to the
Dioscuri, Castor and Pollux, tomorrow - Monday, January 27th. The rite may be
done at any time of the day or evening, so hopefully others can join in even
with this short notice! :)

The Dioscuri are divine twins, sons of Iuppiter, who are thought to be Savior
deities, and who are also patrons of the Equestrian order, cavalry units in
the Legions, athletes, and sailors. Castor and Pollux are said to be friends
of humanity who bring salvation in times of trouble or crisis.

The short prayer and offering to follow is to be done at the home Lararium,
and is a simple rite to ask the Dioscuri for their blessings on our community
and ourselves. I will be posting the instructions to the rite itself directly
after this, and invite all Citizens who practice the Religio to join in by
doing the rite tomorrow!

This ritual has been brought together from a number of sources including two
great websites set up by Pontiff Marcus Cornelius Scriptor: <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Ritual.html">
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Ritual.html</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Cult.html">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Cult.html</A>

A fine web page put up by Sacerdos Iulia Vopisca, with a rite by Flamen Gaius
Iulius Iulanus:
<A HREF="http://www.aztriad.com/dioscuri.html">http://www.aztriad.com/dioscuri.html</A>

And material by Citizen Ovidia Luna and Pontiff Antonius Gryllus Graecus. I
am afraid the prayer is in English, but perhaps there is enough time for
others to find comparable prayers in Latin or other languages.

There are a few important festivals coming up next month, including the
Lupercalia (Feb 15), the Quirinalia (Feb 17), the Terminalia (Feb. 23), the
Regifugium (Feb. 24), and the Equirria (Feb 27). I am hoping for another
public rite for at least the Lupercalia, but if any Citizen or member of the
Priesthood would like to offer text for any of the other rites, more can be
available. :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7707 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
In a message dated 2/3/03 9:40:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
biojournalism@... writes:


> Anyone
> suggest any other books?

Livius History of Rome. The Loeb is the best. The Penguins are abridged.
Polybios "Histories" Again Loeb is the best. Since Penguin leaves out some
important
info in "The Rise of Rome."
Q Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7708 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
In a message dated 2/3/03 9:54:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caiustarquitius@... writes:


> Petronius and Apuleius.

Except these are Principate writers, and not Republican.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7709 From: Jenny Harris Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Re: Why Are The Ancient Roman Provinces of the South Missing?
Salvete,

Octavia Fabia, welcome to Nova Roma! You may want to look into Alice
Borchardt's " The Wolf King" and "Night of The Wolf",
It's a blend of Ancient Rome and Celtic/Druidic orgins. I highly recommend
this Author to everyone.

Bene Vale,
R. Cornelia Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: biojournalism <biojournalism@...>
[mailto:biojournalism@...]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 10:30 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Why Are The Ancient Roman
Provinces of the South Missing?

Just wondering why are the ancient Roman provinces of the
South end
of the Mediterranean missing? We have Panonia/Poland, Spain,

Romania,Portugal, Sarmatia Italy, Turkey, Thule Germania,
etc.....How come there's no Greece, Armenia (except in
Brazil)
Carthage, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Syria, Babylonia, Persia, or
Egypt or
Lebanon (Phoenecia) or Cyprus? I don't see any Assyrians or
Greeks
in the Nova Roma provinces, or didn't I look close enough?
The whole
south half of the Mediterranean that once were under ancient
Rome as
colonies are missing. Anyone from these countries or former
colonies
a Nova Roman? How come?

Re: Sarmatia: Russia. The Roman army brought hundreds of
Sarmatian
soldiers into Britain and settled them there. These peoples
came
from the south part of Russia, but spoke an Iranic language.


Also, Aren't there any Middle Eastern countries in Nova
Roma? Just
wondering. Also, the Roman way of life has been picked up by

Silhoutte Romances. My favorite author, Merline Lovelace has
a great
romance novel that just came out again--it was brought back
into
publication from the first edition of 1994, about a Roman
Centurion
and his Air Force pilotlady brought by time travel to the
world of
ancient Romans. In demand now by publishers--romance novels
set in
ancient Rome and time-travel novels that take place mostly
in
ancient Rome. So you people who write romance novels, not
only
mystery novels like my favorite Steven Saylor novels such as
Arms of
Nemisis, now a screenplay (seeking production), but the
theme of
ancient Rome crosses genres.

In any case, now that I'm retired as a former
English/journalism
university educator, I've lined up a half dozen novels on
ancient
Rome to read. I looked forward to this retirement for a long
time so
I can read all these books, including Tacitus and Plutarch.
Anyone
suggest any other books? I have almost the entire ancient
Roman
world in my own ancestry--Roman, Greek, Armenian, Sicilian,
Karelian, and who knows what else. Thanks.

Octavia Fabia Scriba


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 7710 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-02-04
Subject: Roman Times Article by Julilla
Salvete,

I just want to thank Julilla Sempronia Magna for how-to article on Roman
Women's Costume
which is in this month's Roman Times. I'll let you know how mine comes out!

Julilla, next you need to write an article on how to make Roman men's
clothing so that *all* the male citizens who attend the next NR Rally in
Europe can be in Roman clothes (right Serapio? :-)) And at least I'll have
proper clothing rather than wearing belly-dancing type clothes and trying to
make believe that it is Roman :-)

Vale and thanks again Julilla!
Diana Moravia