Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:

<<snipped>>

> When the Indo-Europeans swept out of the area of modern Scandinavia
> about 10,000 years ago,

A small correction, with your leave.

According to modern theories, the Indo-Europeans did not originate in
Scandinavia. The group of linguistically related peoples known today
as "Indo-Europeans" lived in what we call Southern Russia.

And Indo-European migrations did not begin 10,000 years ago. 4,000
years is probably closer to the truth.

<<snipped>>

> they then moved westward through Mesopotamia and came in contact
> with Egypt (ca. Rameses II) and Mycenaea (ca. post-Trojan War)

Many proofs suggest that the Homer's Achaeans where also Indo-
European; that means that IE peoples entered Greece *before* the
Trojan War, given that the warriors that besieged Troy spoke an IE
langauge.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR

Avete Omnes,

Does anyone have sources to back up any claim? I find both arguements interesting and would like to know where this information is coming from...so I can further read more about it.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response


Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:

<<snipped>>

> When the Indo-Europeans swept out of the area of modern Scandinavia
> about 10,000 years ago,

A small correction, with your leave.

According to modern theories, the Indo-Europeans did not originate in
Scandinavia. The group of linguistically related peoples known today
as "Indo-Europeans" lived in what we call Southern Russia.

And Indo-European migrations did not begin 10,000 years ago. 4,000
years is probably closer to the truth.

<<snipped>>

> they then moved westward through Mesopotamia and came in contact
> with Egypt (ca. Rameses II) and Mycenaea (ca. post-Trojan War)

Many proofs suggest that the Homer's Achaeans where also Indo-
European; that means that IE peoples entered Greece *before* the
Trojan War, given that the warriors that besieged Troy spoke an IE
langauge.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR


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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 09:32:54PM +0000,
> me-in-@... wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From : Caius Minucius Scaevola
> <ben@...>
> > >>
> > >>Sorry, but that's incorrect. Wind*ws does, in
> fact, overwrite the boot
> > >>partition - destructively, so that no trace of
> another OS's boot sector
> > >
> > >But Linux must too because I had a small disk
> going spare I couldn't
> > >get enough Linux on to make any use of but won't
> go go back to W!!!
>
> Sounds like your boot partition simply got
> corrupted; it's a common
> result of trying to just delete Linux instead of
> uninstalling it. See
> my article in Linux Gazette about how to fix it
> (only takes a few
> seconds.)
>
> <http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue63/okopnik.html>
>

Microsoft's fdisk utility is a piece of crap. I Keep a
bootable floppy with DR DOS's fdisk utility on it.
Enter DR DOS's extended mode of fdisk with the command
fdisk/x and you can remove any OS's partition and
repair the MBR from interactive mode.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

--- Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@...> wrote:

>
> --- PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
> > From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Sextus
> Apollonius Scipio. Salve.
> >
> > While both of us serve the goals and ideas of the
> Illustrus Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
> > I must ask "what does the French income tax have
> to do with membership in a voluntary
> > organization like Nova Roma?"
>
> Simply put, while macronations are exonerating their
> citizens from income tax, and
> because NR is supposed to be a nation as well, why
> should we go against the stream?
>

Certain political parties in Macronations are
exonerating SOME of thier citizens from Income taxes
to foster class based voting that will place the
entire tax burden on other citizens who will pay for
benifts recived by the non tax payers. I See no reason
to introduce 21st century style class warfare into
Nova Roma.

Our tax is a head tax, not an income tax. Each citizen
from a given Macronation pays an equal tax regardless
of his income. I Have no objection to a Roman style
tax where the first class has a higher tax to go with
thier increased voting powers.

Representation without taxiation is as bad a tyrany as
taxiation without representation.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Salve Romans

Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an administrative center but for a NR city.

“Neque enim est ulla res,
in qua propius ad deorum numen
virtus accedat humana,
quam civitates aut condere novas
aut conservare iam conditas.”

(“For there is really no other occupation
in which human virtue approaches
more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding new cities
or preserving those already in existence.”)


Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.


Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AVETE OMNES

That's your occasion!!!! JOIN FACTIO PRAESINA, the GREEN team, and
take part to next LUDI PRAESINA, the first CHARIOT RACE of the year
for members of the GREEN factio only!!!
To become a GREEN just subscribe our mailing list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina

Once you have done this, send a message to mcserapio @ yahoo.it to
join the chariot race!!! Remember to write "Ludi Praesina" in the
subject field.

You must write:

--Your Novaroman name
--Name of the Chariot
--Name of the Driver
--Your tactics for the race (choose among)
1 To hurry in the last laps
2 To pass the curves closely the "spina" of the circus.
3 To support a constant pace
4 To lash the rivals
5 To push the rivals to the wall of the circus
6 To hurry in the straight lines

BE HURRY!!! Inscription are open until FEBRUARY 18TH!!!!

The public waits for your chariots on the sand! You will receive a
nice prize and the recognition of the members of your Factio and the
whole citizenship! Who will be the GREEN Champion??????

LET'S SEE IN THE GREEN CIRCUS!!!!!!!!!

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Dominvs Factionis Praesinae

perhaps we should establish a land tax of 5 dollars a year
Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:Salve Romans

Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an administrative center but for a NR city.

���Neque enim est ulla res,
in qua propius ad deorum numen
virtus accedat humana,
quam civitates aut condere novas
aut conservare iam conditas.���

(���For there is really no other occupation
in which human virtue approaches
more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding new cities
or preserving those already in existence.���)


Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.


Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> With the exception of the Basque, Ugrian, and Finnish languages,
> all other languages are descendants of Old Indo-European (aka
> Sanskrit).

I'm afraid I'll have to jump in here - I'm spending a *lot* of my
time studying Indo-European phonology at the moment! In some
respects (especially vowel sounds) Latin and Greek are nearer to the
original IE than Sanskrit. It's a very easy mistake to make, because
a fair number of IE consonants survived in Sanskrit where they did
not in some other languages. But essentially, Sanskrit evolved from
IE in the same way as Latin, Greek, Gothic, and all the other Indo-
European languages. Sorry if it sounds like I'm being picky - I just
thought it might be a point of interest.

Livia

Salvete,
I would really appreciate some response from my province. In the
time since I have become a citizen I already recruted a close friend
of mine to become a Roman citizen himself and my fiancée plans to do
the same within the next little while. I am quickly learning Latin,
and becoming more and more interested in Roman life and Religion.
All this is quite amusing in and of itself, however I didn't become a
Roman citizen to send emails to people. Should things work out I
would love to start a Nova Roma community in the Salt Lake City area
(possibly even here on campus at my university). But in order to do
so it is necessary that all the citizen in the area communicate. I
recognize the utility of this medium and think that if we would all
participate we could build an interactive real-life face-to-face
Roman community that would truly enrich the lives of all involved
both within the context of Nova Roma and without.

Valete Bene,
With best regards,
Laecus Galerius Felix

The Straight Dope -- By Cecil Adams
http://www.straightdope.com

[...]

Dear Straight Dope:

I've have noticed that every time someone asks a
question regarding the origin of a particular word,
Cecil always mentions the original Latin word root.
Well, where did the original Latin words come from?
Was there actually a Latinese guy sitting around
thousands of years ago making up crazy words for things
so that today we'd have an origin for the word "boogie"?
Are Latin words still being created to describe modern
things that weren't around during the original Latin
period? --E Pluribus Ed

SDSTAFF bibliophage replies:

Some ancient Latinese guy just making stuff up? No way.
There's always a rational story behind every Latin word.
For example, "boogie," as you have already guessed, is
from Latin. The origin can be found in Bogudis, a shortened
form of saltatio Bogudis ("dance of Bogud"), Bogud being
an African king who allied himself with Julius Caesar and
incidentally introduced Rome to the new musical form known
as "iazz."

Okay, so maybe I made that one up.

For more, see:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlatinroot.html

Greetings, Laecus Galerius Felix--I am a member of your provincia,
but I live in Houston, Texas. Have you joined your provincia mailing
list, yet? That will be the best place to find other Nova Romans in
your area. It's at:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/america_austroccidentalis

I wish you the best of success in starting a community of Nova Romans
in Salt Lake City. That is a great idea! :)

---
Renata Corva

Salvete Civibus,
The only thing that comes to mind about the whole land thing is:
Why would people put money towards land when in reality only a very
small percentage would ever actually even see it?

Where would you get this land? Somewhere in the NE United States?
Belgium? California? (just examples) So what about the folks living
elsewhere? I think it would be great for those who are independantly
wealthy and able to do the globetrotting thing. I think the vast
majority here (members) are barely even active on the email lists,
much less willing to crank out funds for something they will never
utilize. (Maybe an administrative center? An office or something)

I've been a part of other worldwide non-profit voluntary organizations
(specifically the SCA) for 15 years and the land issue comes up there
too, yet is nearly always shot down.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm not sure what the actual
breakdown of participating Nova Romans are as far as a percentage or
anything. It just seems to my eyes that there is a smaller percentage
that votes, meets and communicates online than the actual number of
citizens signed up to be a part of NR. Of that percentage how many
would be willing to put out money towards something they won't ever use?

I think before we think about land we need to move towards more
face-to-face events. People need to be used to traveling to these
things before a permanent site is developed. The Maine event is a
wonderful start, but it needs to be mimicked in other places too and
grow considerably before dropping cash on a permanent site.

Anyhow, this is all IMHO, so take it for what it's worth.

Respectfully,
Caius Cornelius Varus
America Boreoccidentalis

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@y...>
wrote:

>
> perhaps we should establish a land tax of 5 dollars a year
> Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@m...> wrote:Salve Romans
>
> Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an

administrative center but for a NR city.

>
> “Neque enim est ulla res,
> in qua propius ad deorum numen
> virtus accedat humana,
> quam civitates aut condere novas
> aut conservare iam conditas.”
>
> (“For there is really no other occupation
> in which human virtue approaches
> more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding

new cities

> or preserving those already in existence.”)
>
>
> Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.
>
>
> Vale
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinusemoved]

Em Qua, 2003-02-12 às 19:41, me-in-@... escreveu:

> -----Original Message-----
> From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@...>
>
> It is possible to set up a dual boot computer that can
> >boot up either Linux or Windows. Both Red Hat and
> >Mandrake Linux have installers that detect a Windows
> >installation, and offer to set you coumputer up for
> >Dual boot. With a dual boot computer when you turn it
> >
> A warning though. If you set all-Linux first, you can't go back. Windows is unforgiving (or stupid) so won't rewrite the boot tracks to suit itself. Likewise, a dual system really means a W*s subpartition inside Unix/Linux.
>

Not quite, you will just have to boot to linux through your boot floppy
and rerun lilo (or grub or whatever you want to use)

Manius Villius Limitanus
--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Em Qui, 2003-02-13 às 21:38, L. Cornelius Sulla escreveu:

> Avete Omnes,
>
> Does anyone have sources to back up any claim? I find both arguements interesting and would like to know where this information is coming from...so I can further read more about it.
>

For the fact the the myceneans where IE, any book on the Mycenena
language will do: It is greek written in another form.
Back to original source:
CHADWICK, J. DECIPHERMENT OF LINEAR B 1
or
Ventris, Michael, and Chadwick, John. Documents in Mycenaean Greek, 2nd
edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1973.

There is absolutely no doubt left on this specific point: 14th century
myceneans spoke greek and worshipped gods from the grek pantheons i.e.
they were indo-europeans

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:34 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > When the Indo-Europeans swept out of the area of modern Scandinavia
> > about 10,000 years ago,
>
> A small correction, with your leave.
>
> According to modern theories, the Indo-Europeans did not originate in
> Scandinavia. The group of linguistically related peoples known today
> as "Indo-Europeans" lived in what we call Southern Russia.
>
> And Indo-European migrations did not begin 10,000 years ago. 4,000
> years is probably closer to the truth.
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > they then moved westward through Mesopotamia and came in contact
> > with Egypt (ca. Rameses II) and Mycenaea (ca. post-Trojan War)
>
> Many proofs suggest that the Homer's Achaeans where also Indo-
> European; that means that IE peoples entered Greece *before* the
> Trojan War, given that the warriors that besieged Troy spoke an IE
> langauge.
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Em Qui, 2003-02-13 às 19:24, me-in-@... escreveu:

> -----Original Message-----
> From : Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@...>
> >
> >The universal package converter (same in all distros, as far as I know)
> >is called “alien.“ Just do
> >
> >alien --to-rpm <package>
> >
> >as root, and Magic Will Happen. :)
> >
> Gratias tibi multe ago. There had to be something of the sort; it's not W*s trying to exclude everything else as much as possible. Now what can I do with Algol68? (Not much - but I see some companies still use Fortran77 and even Basic's an improvement of Fortran of any description. Come to think of it, Basic is a variant on Fortran).
> >

Being a Fortran programmer I have to strongly disagree with you.
Fortran (even 66 or IV) is still the best language around for efficiency
in numerical calculations. Even new programs in quantum chemistry are
written in some form of Fortran (mostly 90) because they end up much
faster as in C.
Fortran is an awfull language which does not respect the rules for
elegant programming but is efficient. Basic is neither and VisualBasic
is even worse.

Second as a Debian user, I find your analogy very bad, since .deb is a
strong improvement over .rpm or .tgz

Vale,


Manius Villius Limitanus

> >Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
> >Anybody can err, but only the fool persists in his fault.
> > -- Cicero, “Philippicae orationes“. Often quoted “errare humanum est,
> > ignoscere divinum“ - to err is human, to forgive divine.
> >
> Et ut chaos totaliter fiat, computeri necest.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Ave,

Thank you for that Manius Villius, but that does not answer the question that was being discussed about the origin of Indo-Europeans.

I hope to get some info in regards to that subject.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Loos
To: NovaRoma
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response


Em Qui, 2003-02-13 às 21:38, L. Cornelius Sulla escreveu:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Does anyone have sources to back up any claim? I find both arguements interesting and would like to know where this information is coming from...so I can further read more about it.
>

For the fact the the myceneans where IE, any book on the Mycenena
language will do: It is greek written in another form.
Back to original source:
CHADWICK, J. DECIPHERMENT OF LINEAR B 1
or
Ventris, Michael, and Chadwick, John. Documents in Mycenaean Greek, 2nd
edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1973.

There is absolutely no doubt left on this specific point: 14th century
myceneans spoke greek and worshipped gods from the grek pantheons i.e.
they were indo-europeans

Manius Villius Limitanus


> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:34 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > When the Indo-Europeans swept out of the area of modern Scandinavia
> > about 10,000 years ago,
>
> A small correction, with your leave.
>
> According to modern theories, the Indo-Europeans did not originate in
> Scandinavia. The group of linguistically related peoples known today
> as "Indo-Europeans" lived in what we call Southern Russia.
>
> And Indo-European migrations did not begin 10,000 years ago. 4,000
> years is probably closer to the truth.
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > they then moved westward through Mesopotamia and came in contact
> > with Egypt (ca. Rameses II) and Mycenaea (ca. post-Trojan War)
>
> Many proofs suggest that the Homer's Achaeans where also Indo-
> European; that means that IE peoples entered Greece *before* the
> Trojan War, given that the warriors that besieged Troy spoke an IE
> langauge.
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@...>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

agreed
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher [mailto:spqr753@...]
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 1:48 AM
To: Nova-Roma
Subject: [Nova-Roma] NR LAND


Salve Romans

Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an administrative center but for a NR city.

“Neque enim est ulla res,
in qua propius ad deorum numen
virtus accedat humana,
quam civitates aut condere novas
aut conservare iam conditas.”

(“For there is really no other occupation
in which human virtue approaches
more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding new cities
or preserving those already in existence.”)


Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.


Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I beg to differ with you in that many scholars feel that the original migration began in what is now modern Scandinavia due to a climatic change. There was a long period of inhabitation of the steppes in Southern Russia before the migration continued eastward with some IEs staying in Russia as the proto-Scythians. In regards to IE peoples being present for the Trojan War, it is possible that some of the IE peoples of southern Russia may have been involved in the conflict as auxiliaries of the Trojan (Hissalikian) kingdom, Mycenaea was overrun by the IE 'Dorians' after Troy IV had already been burned out. The language of the Argives who attacked Troy was a dialect of Linear B (Ancient Cretan), which was a pre-IE language.

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix. Salve.

There are three texts that are readily available at most libraries that I find to be excellent sources. IN SEARCH OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS by J. P. Mallory; ARCHAEOLOGY & LANGUAGE: THE PUZZLE OF INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGINS by Colin Renfrew; AN INTRODUCTION TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES by P. Baldi. There are a host of works on the Scythians, Sarmatians, the Indo-European mummies in the Tarim Basin, and most general archaeological texts discuss the Harappan culture of the Indus River Valley. The origin of the study of IE languages originated in the late 18th century when the French and English dominated large portions of India. It was discovered that Sanskrit was the precursor of all European languages including Classical Greek and Latin. I believe the first book on Comparative Language was published by a Frenchman in Paris in 1816.

Ave,

Thank you very much for your sources. I will definitely explore each work that you have cited in your response.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response


From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix. Salve.

There are three texts that are readily available at most libraries that I find to be excellent sources. IN SEARCH OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS by J. P. Mallory; ARCHAEOLOGY & LANGUAGE: THE PUZZLE OF INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGINS by Colin Renfrew; AN INTRODUCTION TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES by P. Baldi. There are a host of works on the Scythians, Sarmatians, the Indo-European mummies in the Tarim Basin, and most general archaeological texts discuss the Harappan culture of the Indus River Valley. The origin of the study of IE languages originated in the late 18th century when the French and English dominated large portions of India. It was discovered that Sanskrit was the precursor of all European languages including Classical Greek and Latin. I believe the first book on Comparative Language was published by a Frenchman in Paris in 1816.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Livia,

You are not being picky. The proto-IE language predates Sanskrit but when the IEs invaded the Indus Valley and established themselves there, the survivors of the Harappan culture began the process of writing down their conquerors' language. Sanskrit is the first, and most likely, purest form of IE extant being approximately 4-5,000 years old. The form of Old Greek we are familiar with was not written down until 2,800 years ago. We know that the Greeks and Thracians were able to speak the language of the Scythians and Sarmatians (according to Herodotus). However, the Greeks believed that Scythian was a debased form of their language while in reality, Greek was a debased form of the IE language of the Scythians. This debasement was the result of the inclusion of elements of Linear A & B languages into the IE language of the so-called Dorians. Culture also plays a part in the alteration of language. The Scythians, Sarmatians, and the IE peoples who invaded the Indus Valley were pastoralists while the cultures of the Indus Valley and the Greek Penisula were agriculturalists. Certain words like "plow", "vineyard", "orchard", "scythe", and many other agricultural words were more likely to have been introduced to IE languages from the civilizations that the IEs conquered. Take the word "soma"; this word might be translated as "wine" or "ale" but is most likely to have actually been a form of "mead" since the IEs did not raise grapes or barley but would have been able to use wild bees for honey to produce mead or soma. This theory is expounded on at length in the book WASSAIL TO MAZERS OF MEAD by Papazian and Grayle. Anyway, good luck with your language studies.

Flavi Galeri

America Austrorientalis is a very large province, over
450,000 square miles. Excessive travel times make it
hard to set up to set up regular face to face meetings
at the provincial level. There is some discussion
about setting up local groups that will hold face to
face meetings on a regular basis.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

--- "civvsromanvs <ben.fuertsch@...>"
<ben.fuertsch@...> wrote:

> Salvete,
> I would really appreciate some response from my
> province. In the
> time since I have become a citizen I already
> recruted a close friend
> of mine to become a Roman citizen himself and my
> fianc�e plans to do
> the same within the next little while. I am quickly
> learning Latin,
> and becoming more and more interested in Roman life
> and Religion.
> All this is quite amusing in and of itself, however
> I didn't become a
> Roman citizen to send emails to people. Should
> things work out I
> would love to start a Nova Roma community in the
> Salt Lake City area
> (possibly even here on campus at my university).
> But in order to do
> so it is necessary that all the citizen in the area
> communicate. I
> recognize the utility of this medium and think that
> if we would all
> participate we could build an interactive real-life
> face-to-face
> Roman community that would truly enrich the lives of
> all involved
> both within the context of Nova Roma and without.
>
> Valete Bene,
> With best regards,
> Laecus Galerius Felix
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Manius Villius Limitanus. Salve.

I beg to differ with you on both points that the inhabitants of the area of Classical Greece in the 14th century B.C. worshipped gods from the classical Greek pantheon and spoke IE Classical Greek. The culture of 14th-13th century B.C. Greece was Mycenaean and, to a lesser extent, Cretan. These cultures existed prior to the IE invasions of the Dorians. The language in question were Linear A and Linear B which were both pre-IE languages. In theory, there may have been some IE influence on the Mycenaean language prior to the fall of that culture. Also, Homer did not record the events of the Iliad until the 8th century B.C. which would have been 500 years after the end of Myceanaean civilization. His language was definitely IE Ancient Greek and his gods were definitely those of the pantheon we are familar with as the Ancient Greek Gods and Goddesses. The pantheon of the period of 1300-1200 B.C. is not so set in stone. After all, Dis Pater came to Greece via Asia Minor, Hecate was the original Earth Mother of the Thracians, and Tyr was likely the original IE sky father. Gods change with time, travel, and the nature of their worshippers. To quote Kansas, "nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky."

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to C. Cornelius Varus. Salve.

I have been a member of the SCA since 1976 (although only semi-active since 1998) and agree that there is something to what you say. In all honesty, I visualize a central NR site as somewhere in the northern Kentucky, southern Ohio, or eastern Illinois area looking much like a Roman-version of a RennFaire. The only permanent structures would be the Forum area with a Basilica, Temple to the Capitoline Triad, a small replica of the Pantheon, a single row of Pompeian merchant stalls, a wood-and-earth amphitheatre for gladitorial fights, and (maybe) a small Roman fortlet for legio demos. All other areas would be space for tents and a Italic style home for the caretaker.
A Roman Festival could be held there during the period between May-October for the public with NR events being held at any time during the year. The members from the USA & Canada could easily attend once a year like SCAers go to Pennsics or Gulf Wars. Ownership would have to be in the hands of the NR corportation but we would likely need business corporate sponsorship for the festival.
The rest of the NR world would have to make their own arrangements for a permanent spot to hold their functions. Those provincials in areas with Roman sites or reconstructions could make arrangements to aid with preservation and demonstrations. Other areas would likely have to depend on the kindness of a single owner to hold events on his property and the group would supply the insurance and some upkeep money.
Almost all NR Land progjects will begin at the local level to find a piece of property that is likely owned by a member and then developing it as a group project.

Salve, Quirites

Since we have 1773 citizens, isn't it time to update the main page?

Also, I've seen the discussion about "a plan" and taxes.
Well, my first suggestion for 'a plan' is to require a signature on the citizenship application. Quite frankly this would have greatly reduced the need for a 'census'. I want to point out that of those citizens who applied during the first months of our existence and sent in a signed application, most are still here and are active citizens. Just that small amount of extra effort was enough to separate the wheat from the chafe in most cases. Of course we have gained many worthy, talented, devoted, intelligent, etc.<:-) citizens since we adopted the online form. However, I believe that those same people who have shown initiative in their service to Nova Roma would not have let the requirement of a self addressed stamp envelope and a signed application prevent them from doing what they have done without the requirement of a signed form.

Too, I fully support a tax, but I'm against anything like a tiered tax that effects century placement. We already have a system that determines century placement based on service to the state, longevity, and other factors such as 'The Orders' along with the payment of tax as part of the equation. I think the tax is a duty. I believe in rewarding those who do more than just exist, and even sending in their $12. (or whatever the calculation works out for the different economies).

Additionally, I believe that a percentage of the tax should be set aside for a land fund. That the acquisitions of land for a 'Forum' is a goal of Nova Roma and has been since before it's inception, is plan for all to see. I would suggest that arguments on where it should be are premature, and will in all likelihood evolve as Nova Roma grows. I'll even add that it should be possible for us to have more than one place on which to build shrines, temples and a Basilica. These don't have to be grand marble edifices, at first :-) , but rather, like Roma herself, begun as simple wooden structures. First, will, effort and action, then results.

Anyway, let's begin from the beginning and have signed forms from either all citizens or at least from Pater/Materfamilias vouching for their Gens. For the larger gens such as mine each adult should submit a signed form.

Well, everyone have nice weekend and for my local Mediatlantica neighbors get ready for the snowstorm!

Valete, Lucius Equitius
Senator, etc.

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--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:>
"Almost all NR Land progjects will begin at the local level to find a
piece of property that is likely owned by a member and then
developing it as a group project."

Salve amice,

Now that may be possible.

My main thought being that the greater SCA events: Pennsic, Gulf
Wars, Great Western War, Estrella War are all held at rented or
private owned land, but not SCA owned land. We're talking about huge
events with up to literally several thousands of attendees, yet the
site is not owned. The SCA has been running for what, 37 years now?

I think the idea is possible for NR to have a permanent site, I just
think it is WAYYY down the road. I think we need to look at how we
use the current taxes more closely before we even think about
allotting for land.

We need to sponsor more events and get people travelling to them long
before an actual site is developed. How many bodies do we get a NR
functions now? Say the big Roman gig in Maine? We need to have those
sized events in every provincia before we can realistically make the
next step to a permanent site. I know the SCA after 37 years and tens
of thousands of international members are not at that point yet for
the biggest events they have.

I think the SCA has already set up a pattern to improve upon for
reenactment/ recreation/ non-profit groups. I think we can take many
lessons learned from what they have already done. Specfically in how
to effectively utilize memberships etc.

My two cents only...

Vale bene,

Caius Cornelius Varus
America Boreoccidentalis

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...>
wrote:> "Just that small amount of extra effort was enough to
separate the wheat from the chafe in most cases. Of course we have
gained many worthy, talented, devoted, intelligent, etc.<:-) citizens
since we adopted the online form. However, I believe that those same
people who have shown initiative in their service to Nova Roma would
not have let the requirement of a self addressed stamp envelope and a
signed application prevent them from doing what they have done
without the requirement of a signed form. <snip>

> Additionally, I believe that a percentage of the tax should be set

aside for a land fund. That the acquisitions of land for a 'Forum' is
a goal of Nova Roma and has been since before it's inception, is plan
for all to see. I would suggest that arguments on where it should be
are premature, and will in all likelihood evolve as Nova Roma grows>


I think a signed form is a great idea. The online thing is okay, but
how many of the 1773 citizens are participitory at all? How many have
signed up and gone on to greener pastures?

I think that setting aside funds for land NOW is too early since
there aren't enough (IMO only) actual events to attend yet throughout
the republic. I think we should use the funds to host and sponsor
events first. NR will grow from the exposure, THEN we would be in a
better position to set aside fundage for land. I think eventually it
is a wonderful idea; but premature now.

Events also mean signed waivers and insurance as well as a way of
defining memberships, ie: membership cards of some sort (easily
printed on a dot matrix printer. But i'm getting way ahead of
myself...

Vale,
Caius Cornelius Varus
America Boreoccidentalis

-----Original Message-----
From : “Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@...>“

>
>I'm afraid I'll have to jump in here - I'm spending a *lot* of my
>time studying Indo-European phonology at the moment! In some
>respects (especially vowel sounds) Latin and Greek are nearer to the
>original IE than Sanskrit. It's a very easy mistake to make, because
>

Not so sure about Latin because it seems to have reinvented the verbs based on additions of Ire, and did again with Habere. I'll take that apart from keeping most of the case endings, Sanskrit has lost short vowels and introduced a whole range of foreign consonants. That and Latin and German suggest learnt languages where Greek and Celtic suggest more wholesale migration. Then there's the Centum-Satem shift on top and this preference for impersonals and passives. That must have applied to the East in general because Slavic pasts are of agreeing form though I can't imagine where they got an L from. Something I find fascinating is just how and why all the syntactic complexities of Greek and Latin indirect speech developed where they did not in India. Or maybe that's just a feature of what tended to be written.
I do suspect Sanskrit was learnt by a population more familiar with something of Chinese kind of structure but I know absolutely nothing about the native Indian language families to make a guess. Something could be learnt from which sounds developed purely Indian pronunciations like the retroflexes and unvoiced aspirates. But then English is unusual in have a partly retroflex aspirate pronunuciation too and I can't guess where that comes from except that Welsh and Irish are dental but heavily aspirated more heavily.

Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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-----Original Message-----
From : Michel Loos <loos@...>

>
>There is absolutely no doubt left on this specific point: 14th century
>myceneans spoke greek and worshipped gods from the grek pantheons i.e.
>they were indo-europeans
>

the really interesting question concerns the divisors of Linear B. Linear A appears to be logographic but B was obviously intended for a language where simple open syllables were the norm. But what? Not semitic or Egyptian since they also allow for plain consonants. Not I-E because it lacks far too many I-E sounds but perhaps had others all equally substitutable. The other unknowns in the area are Cypriot and [something like] Cyrene, Cairene? All related?

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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Linear A was the primary language associated with the Minoan culture on Crete from 1900-1400 BC while Linear B was the primary language associated with Mycenaean culture from 1500-1200 BC. Linear B supplanted Linear A following the eruption of Thera, the subsequent decline in Minoan military & commerical strength, and the invasion of Crete by the mainland Mycenaeans in approximately 1400 BC.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

-----Original Message-----
From : Michel Loos <loos@...>

>
>Fortran is an awfull language which does not respect the rules for
>elegant programming but is efficient. Basic is neither and VisualBasic
>is even worse.
>

for what it's worth, I dislike inconsistancies but Fortran falls into the quick&dirty for non-programmers category so it's ideal for scientists with other things on their mind. The Basics extended to file handling are similar from the business point of view where nobody really wants to churn through the levels of Cobol definition and then all the special categories. I do agree though that C was one whole ghastly step backwards with absolutely nothing to recommend it except Unix and not being Basic. C++ is a marginal improvement but I'm not convinced by Objects or any other single solution for all cases. I found SmallTalk one of the most difficult things I've ever used because it is 100% OOPS.
I grew up with Algol60 and 68 has features only just creeping into C# 35 years later. The real case depends on who backs and IBM backed Fortran, Honeywell Cobol, DEC and HP of course invented their own :)

>Second as a Debian user, I find your analogy very bad, since .deb is a
>strong improvement over .rpm or .tgz
>

Don't know anything about the distributions. I had 3 CDs of Red Hat or 6 of SuSe and SuSe doesn't warn about missing references. Their chameleon logo is pretty though.

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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-----Original Message-----
From : PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...

>I beg to differ with you in that many scholars feel that the original migration began in what is now modern Scandinavia due to a climatic

Interesting but why was anybody living in Scandinavia? It's hostile enough now; 4,000+ years ago is that much closer to the last glaciation even if it was warmer one thousand years ago. (Global warming nuts: we're just getting back to as it was). Nobody usually goes to places like that unless driven out of somewhere better unless they were specialised hunters following the glaciers North over generations.

Caesariensis.


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Personalised email by http://another.com

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Em Sex, 2003-02-14 às 14:14, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... escreveu:

> I beg to differ with you in that many scholars feel that the original migration began in what is now modern Scandinavia due to a climatic change. There was a long period of inhabitation of the steppes in Southern Russia before the migration continued eastward with some IEs staying in Russia as the proto-Scythians. In regards to IE peoples being present for the Trojan War, it is possible that some of the IE peoples of southern Russia may have been involved in the conflict as auxiliaries of the Trojan (Hissalikian) kingdom, Mycenaea was overrun by the IE 'Dorians' after Troy IV had already been burned out. The language of the Argives who attacked Troy was a dialect of Linear B (Ancient Cretan), which was a pre-IE language.
>

Linear B is a way of writing down GREEK, an IE language, refer yourself
to the sources I sent in a former mail.

To convince yourself take just about any tablet and "read"/decipher it
and you will see that you can nearly understand it, just because
it is an archaic form of greek.

For the original point of the supposed "migrations", I am not interested
in that sort of speculations.
Just remembering there is also a "diffusion" theory based on the extend
of new land needed per generation.
There just is and can be no clear proof of either theory, just about as
moot as discussing if their is or not (a) God(s): indecidible by reason
alone: you need faith.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Actually, one must consider that the number of reasons why mankind spread out from the Olduvai Gorge (or Eden) are as numerous as the people involved. Why did early man move out of Africa with the plentiful game to arid regions like the Sahara or Arabian Penisula? Why did the neolithic hunters move so far north or east? Was it just to follow the herds or were there other reasons? The modern areas of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finnland have very little to recommend them in the way of growing seasons or abundance of space but there seem to have been a whole lot of people there during the period of the Roman Empire, German Migrations, and Carolingian Empire? I'm waiting for the time machine to tell us what happened that caused the IEs to stop going east in the Indus Valley and had them move west. H. Beam Piper suggested that some shamanic chief got hold of a bad batch of soma and his hangover produced the change of direction.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

There is little direct correlation between Linear B which is a pre-IE language and Greek which is an IE language. In Greek, the word for king is basilikos but in Linear B it is wanax. You want to tell me how you get one from the other. Besides, Ancient Greek to Hellenistic Greek (New Testament) to Byzantine (Medieval) Greek to Modern Greek is a logical progression. If you can read Hellenistic Greek, you can make out modern Greek despite the influence of Gothic, Slavic, and English languages. However, even if you read Classical Greek you cannot make out Linear A (Minoan) or Linear B (Mycenaean).
Linear A & B can only be considered Greek if you mean the geographical area of Ancient Greek city-states of the Classical Period was the same as the Mycenaean culture. If Linear A/B were actually related to IE Greek, why were they undecipherable until Chadwick did Linear B in 1952?

F. Gal Aur Sec

Em Sex, 2003-02-14 às 15:17, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... escreveu:

> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Manius Villius Limitanus. Salve.
>
> I beg to differ with you on both points that the inhabitants of the area of Classical
> Greece in the 14th century B.C. worshipped gods from the classical Greek pantheon
> and spoke IE Classical Greek. The culture of 14th-13th century B.C. Greece was
> Mycenaean and, to a lesser extent, Cretan.

Yes and the Mycenean culture was a greek one, Crete we don't know since
Linear A is not deciphered.

> These cultures existed prior to the
> IE invasions of the Dorians.

Yes, again : there were indo-europeans in Greece (including crete after
1350BC) before the arrival of the dorian.

> The language in question were Linear A and Linear B
> which were both pre-IE languages.

Linear A and Linear B are not languages: they are writing forms.
Since Chadwick and Ventris deiciphered linear B (~1950) we know that
linear B represents Greek (archaic but still greek). We have thousands
of tablets that were read, we know a lot of things about their culture.

> In theory, there may have been some IE influence
> on the Mycenaean language prior to the fall of that culture.

No theory, no influence: facts. We can easily read what they wrote down
on the tablets.

> Also, Homer did not record the events of the Iliad until the 8th century B.C.
> which would have been 500 years after the end of Myceanaean civilization.
> His language was definitely IE Ancient Greek and his gods were definitely those of
> the pantheon we are familar with as the Ancient Greek Gods and Goddesses.
> The pantheon of the period of 1300-1200 B.C. is not so set in stone.

No it set down in tablets which count the various offrands for the
various gods; so much oil or sheeps for Athena, for Zeus, for the Mother
of All Gods, so much wine for Dyonisos etc.
It is very easy to read, hte catalogs of nearly all tablets are
published. You find many in Ventris+Chadwick book I cited.
Alphabets (well sillabaries) are available (see Chadwick)
take any tablet, transliterate to your alphabet and just read it: it is
GREEK.

They were indo-europeans, worshiped an indo-european pantheon, under
mostly the same names as later.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> After all, Dis Pater came to Greece via Asia Minor, Hecate was the original Earth
> Mother of the Thracians, and Tyr was likely the original IE sky father.
> Gods change with time, travel, and the nature of their worshippers.
> To quote Kansas, "nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky."
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Salvete Romani!

Don't let this chance slip on by and make history.

Join the Factio Albata today. We are a small band of dedicated charioteers bringing you the best, the most cunning, the most elegant and the most brutal racing possible. Forget about mastodont factiones such as Russata or Praesina. Join Albata, support us and think of us in your prayers!

Our mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factio_albata . Come and discuss tactics with us there!

Valete bene,
M. Octavius Solaris
Dominus Factionis Albatae


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...> wrote:

> Salve, Quirites
>
> Since we have 1773 citizens, isn't it time to update the main page?

From the main page: http://www.novaroma.org/main.html

Current population: MDCCLXXIII (1773)

Now that's what I call service! :-)

Great job T Octavius! and Thanks,
It's the little things that count ;-)

Valete, L Equitius


BTW I missed offering my congratulations to Julillia Sempronia et Gnaeus Equitius on their appointments as Propraetores.
I was very pleased that they chose to take up the positions and even more so to vote for them. I've met Gnaeus and found him to be the embodiment of Roman virtue. I am proud to have him as a gens mate.
Julillia, I've yet to meet in person, but from all contact, official and unofficial, she is a wonderful person who I very much look forward to meeting. She was always very helpful to me, as Censor, in my work last year. I'm happy to have had the opportunity to work with her.

Ave Gn Equitius!
Ave Julillia Sempronia!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Em Sex, 2003-02-14 às 18:58, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... escreveu:

> There is little direct correlation between Linear B which is a pre-IE language and
> Greek which is an IE language. In Greek, the word for king is basilikos but in
> Linear B it is wanax.

It is (w)anax in homerian greek for agammenon King of Kings(iliade
1.442), in linear B it is WA-NA-KA. The W appears in archaic
inscritption in corynth/Argos (through the digamma F)

Basileus stems from the mycenean word for local rulers (sorry I forgot
it in Linear B)

> You want to tell me how you get one from the other.

You don't they represent different functions in the Mycenean kingdoms
and also in the Homerian poems.

> Besides, Ancient Greek to Hellenistic Greek (New Testament) to Byzantine (Medieval)
> Greek to Modern Greek is a logical progression. If you can read Hellenistic Greek,
> you can make out modern Greek despite the influence of Gothic, Slavic, and English
> languages.

It is not so easy, believe me I tried.

> However, even if you read Classical Greek you cannot make out Linear A (Minoan) or
> Linear B (Mycenaean).

Linear A : not deciphered. Linear B: much easier as Modern Greek: you
read it after transliterating, even the cases are conserved. There is a
general R->L migration some voyels evolved to i, you have to find out
where to forget about voyels in order to get the pure consonants that
appear in Classical greek, but it is definitively understandable.

I totally agree with Caesariensis that it does not seem to have been
designed for representing Greek exactly because of the lack of pure
consonnants, but it really represents greek. And I have definitively no
idea of what it was supposed to represent originally.


Remember: the tablets we read are from the last days of the various
Palaces, the writing could be much older, before the arrival of the IE
myceneans.

> Linear A & B can only be considered Greek if you mean the geographical area of
> Ancient Greek city-states of the Classical Period was the same as the Mycenaean
> culture. If Linear A/B were actually related to IE Greek, why were they
> undecipherable until Chadwick did Linear B in 1952?
>

Because Linear B is a syllabic language and we have no Rosette table
+ many people (before 1950) thought they represented an unknown
language, unrelated to greek.

Chadwick deciphered Linear B using secret code deciphering tecniques
with the simple assumptions that :
1) Names of places did not change between the language represented by
Linear B and Classical Greek.
2) The most common words should be the name of the place were the
tablets were discoverd.

It came as a surprise to him that the transliterated texts made sense in
greek (an archaic form of greek).

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus



--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

AVETE OMNES

That's your occasion!!!! JOIN FACTIO PRAESINA, the GREEN team, and
take part to next LUDI PRAESINA, the first CHARIOT RACE of the year
for members of the GREEN factio only!!!
To become a GREEN just subscribe our mailing list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina

Once you have done this, send a message to mcserapio @ yahoo.it to
join the chariot race!!! Remember to write "Ludi Praesina" in the
subject field.

You must write:

--Your Novaroman name
--Name of the Chariot
--Name of the Driver
--Your tactics for the race (choose among)
1 To hurry in the last laps
2 To pass the curves closely the "spina" of the circus.
3 To support a constant pace
4 To lash the rivals
5 To push the rivals to the wall of the circus
6 To hurry in the straight lines

BE HURRY!!! Inscription are open until FEBRUARY 18TH!!!!

The public waits for your chariots on the sand! You will receive a
nice prize and the recognition of the members of your Factio and the
whole citizenship! Who will be the GREEN Champion??????

LET'S SEE IN THE GREEN CIRCUS!!!!!!!!!

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Dominvs Factionis Praesinae

> Sanskrit is the first, and most likely, purest form of IE extant
> being approximately 4-5,000 years old. The form of Old Greek we
> are familiar with was not written down until 2,800 years ago.

I'm not questioning whether Sanskrit was the first IE language to be
written - I honestly don't know. And it was originally thought that
Sanskrit was a very pure form of IE, because in a lot of cases the
consonants one has to reconstruct for IE are the same as in Sanskrit
(Sanskrit has complex consonants like 'bh' and 'dh', and generally
sounds get easier to say, rather than harder).

But there's something called Collitz's Law, or palatalgesetz, which
is I think a *fairly* recent discovery on the scale of IE studies
(lots of scholars noticed/published on it simultaneously, no-one's
quite sure who got there first), which shows that in fact Sanskrit
branched off from eg. Greek quite early on, and in terms of vowel
sounds is not as pure as Latin and Greek.

It was previously thought that o and e in Latin and Greek were local
innovations from Sanskrit a, IE *a. But basically it's been quite
clearly demonstrated that in fact Sanskrit a occurs where IE would
have had *a in some cases, but *e or *o in others (I can't do long &
short symbols on this computer, but I mean both anyway).

That's all I was trying to say :)

Livia

> The language in question were Linear A and Linear B which were both
> pre-IE languages

Can I just say, in my opinion, I think everyone would find these
discussions a lot clearer and simpler if everyone distinguished more
clearly between languages and scripts, and also between linguistic
groups and cultural groups and ethnic groups. I admit there is often
a big enough overlap that it's all too easy to equate them. But I
really think it would be easier to have this discussion if we didn't,
because sometimes I'm finding myself agreeing in principle with what
someone says, but not with the fact that they're talking about Indo-
Europeans (which sounds to me like an ethnic group) rather
than 'people who speak Indo-European languages'. I'm just easily
confused, and I like things to be as simple as possible given that
we're having quite complex technical discussions :)

Livia

-----Original Message-----
From : PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...

people involved. Why did early man move out of Africa with the plentiful game to arid regions like the Sahara or Arabian Penisula? Why did the neolithic hunters move so far north or east? Was it just to

They didn't! The Sahara is a recent desert and existing cities developed irrigation as it dried up. Same for Iraq but the irrigation itslf poisoned the land with sedimentary salts. Arabia was probably populated from across the Red Sea via Yemen but it is only in the generation before Mohammed that inland cities started to become more than stopover points.
As the glaciers retreated or even before, Africa was probably not so fertile. Jungle is not as fertile today as people like to believe. The subglacial tundra of Europe though was extremely fertile both in tough plants the humans could not eat and in vast herd they could that depended on those plants. It's not the most comfortable place to be but Neanderthalers had got there already and it seems that while they went straight North, Cro-Magnon came East via an Asian stopover (the Mediterranean having developed meantime).
Just possibly it was a mutant variety with inactive melanin who went North to escape sunburn.

Caesariensis.

"Democracy means deceive people into doing what the rich want, and markets means make sure the public subsidize the rich." Noam Chomsky



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Not so sure about Latin because it seems to have reinvented the
> verbs based on additions of Ire, and did again with Habere.

Ah, I see. I was originally confused by your message, but I think I
understand where we've misunderstood one another. I was talking
about the vowels which IE *had* being closer to those of Latin and
Greek - not necessarily that Latin words have those same vowel sounds
in the right places in equivalent words.

> Then there's the Centum-Satem shift on top and this preference for
> impersonals and passives. That must have applied to the East in
> general because Slavic pasts are of agreeing form though I can't
> imagine where they got an L from.

Another thing you might be interested in, which I've been taught over
the last couple of weeks and is apparently another new development,
is that the centum/satem divide is no longer considered to be so
strictly an East/West divide as was once thought. Just a point of
interest :) I find that shift very interesting myself, I'd be
interested to know more about what caused it if anyone has any
references for theories on that - it seems to be one of those things
they just teach you is the case, and *may* explain later but may not.

It's a fantastic subject to study, though. I do enjoy it! (And
really enjoy having people to discuss with who aren't being forced to
study it for their course.)

Livia

> It is (w)anax in homerian greek for agammenon King of Kings(iliade
> 1.442), in linear B it is WA-NA-KA. The W appears in archaic
> inscritption in corynth/Argos (through the digamma F)

Yay, digamma! :)

> Basileus stems from the mycenean word for local rulers (sorry I

forgot

> it in Linear B)

Which sheds interesting light on most Homeric scholars' stubborn
insistence on claiming that every instance of the word basileus
should be interpreted as 'king', with all that implies - and
inferring about the society based on that.

Livia

-----Original Message-----
From : Michel Loos <loos@...>

>
>Yes and the Mycenean culture was a greek one, Crete we don't know since
>Linear A is not deciphered.
>

I believe that A has been deciphered as logographic so that in effect you get the same thing written twice, as if FoWo DoLa 4$.
A very good explanation by a German minerologist is that there was no 'Minoan'bull culture but that Knossos etc are ossuaries. The reason a minerologist came to this conclusion is that he found it strange that all the royal 'baths'had no plumbing and were made of water-soluble gypsum. Further investigation revealed all sorts of discrepancies: the royal apartments of Knossos are 5 floors down (entrance is at the top of a hill) so must have been as gloomy as the grave. If they were the grave, not surprising! Then again, the 'maze' is understandable since spooks are not very bright and more than keeping anyone out it is to keep them in. The 'kitchens'are in places entirely unsuitable for transporting food and contain storage jars it is impossible to get into but all quite represented in later Egyptian necropoleis. Furthermore it is on Egyptian record that when they first started to embalm mummies instead of just leaving them to dry in the desert, it is to Crete that they sent for embalmers.
The 'tribute lists' are therefore shown to be funeral or annual gifts to the dead and donations to consult them. They are written in Linear B Greek for practicality and in A logographs for the gods/dead, Heaven being invariably old-fashioned, whether it's the Vatican's Latin or Vedic chant 3,000 years on.
Some of the frescoes show this (where Arthur Evans has not 'restored'them to the latest Art Nouveau!) while the marine theme of so many more is always associated with death. Dolphins/Porpoises are the souls of dead sailors - everybody knows that. As for the bull-leaping, well the opinion of a professional torero is that it shows some poor girl being gored and if it led to bull-fighting, took a few centuries later to do it.
The same source suggests that the great pyre Achilles builds in Trojan War is not to cremate Patroklos but to smoke-cure him into human ham. That way he can be shipped home for burial in state.
As for the culture, in classical times it was the only Polis similar to but less extreme than Sparta, which may mean that there was some truth in a previous matriarchal system, there being evidence for this (Helen especially) in Sparta. In such a system, all the men get to do is kicked out into barracks to fight. On Crete they would have had the sea as well but note as for Minoan-Mykenaian, Crete is listed with the Akhaiwoi against Troy, not on the Trojan side some believe 'Minoans' would have been.

Caesariensis.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> Actually, one must consider that the number of reasons why mankind
> spread out from the Olduvai Gorge (or Eden) are as numerous as the
> people involved. Why did early man move out of Africa with the
> plentiful game to arid regions like the Sahara or Arabian
> Penisula? Why did the neolithic hunters move so far north or
> east? Was it just to follow the herds or were there other
> reasons?

I would say that increases in population, climate changes and a
subsequent need for new gathering/hunting territories can explain
most primitive migrations.

As for the Sahara and Saudi Arabia, bear in mind that the climate has
changed over the years. The Sahara was a savana 10,000 years ago;
when the last glaciation receded, it became a desert. There is a
wonderful chapter on this subject on Toynbee's work.

Em Sex, 2003-02-14 às 21:26, me-in-@... escreveu:

> -----Original Message-----
> From : Michel Loos <loos@...>
> >
> >Yes and the Mycenean culture was a greek one, Crete we don't know since
> >Linear A is not deciphered.
> >
> I believe that A has been deciphered as logographic so that in effect you get the same thing written twice, as if FoWo DoLa 4$.
> A very good explanation by a German minerologist is that there was no 'Minoan'bull culture but that Knossos etc are ossuaries. The reason a minerologist came to this conclusion is that he found it strange that all the royal 'baths'had no plumbing and were made of water-soluble gypsum. Further investigation revealed all sorts of discrepancies: the royal apartments of Knossos are 5 floors down (entrance is at the top of a hill) so must have been as gloomy as the grave. If they were the grave, not surprising! Then again, the 'maze' is understandable since spooks are not very bright and more than keeping anyone out it is to keep them in. The 'kitchens'are in places entirely unsuitable for transporting food and contain storage jars it is impossible to get into but all quite represented in later Egyptian necropoleis. Furthermore it is on Egyptian record that when they first started to embalm mummies instead of just leaving them to dry in the desert, it is to Crete that they sent for embalmers.
> The 'tribute lists' are therefore shown to be funeral or annual gifts to the dead and donations to consult them. They are written in Linear B Greek for practicality and in A logographs for the gods/dead, Heaven being invariably old-fashioned, whether it's the Vatican's Latin or Vedic chant 3,000 years on.
> Some of the frescoes show this (where Arthur Evans has not 'restored'them to the latest Art Nouveau!) while the marine theme of so many more is always associated with death. Dolphins/Porpoises are the souls of dead sailors - everybody knows that. As for the bull-leaping, well the opinion of a professional torero is that it shows some poor girl being gored and if it led to bull-fighting, took a few centuries later to do it.
> The same source suggests that the great pyre Achilles builds in Trojan War is not to cremate Patroklos but to smoke-cure him into human ham. That way he can be shipped home for burial in state.
> As for the culture, in classical times it was the only Polis similar to but less extreme than Sparta, which may mean that there was some truth in a previous matriarchal system, there being evidence for this (Helen especially) in Sparta. In such a system, all the men get to do is kicked out into barracks to fight. On Crete they would have had the sea as well but note as for Minoan-Mykenaian, Crete is listed with the Akhaiwoi against Troy, not on the Trojan side some believe 'Minoans' would have been.
>

Sparte and Creta and most of the peloponnese are dorian polis in the
classical age. Mycenean (from Knossos and from Pylos they are the same)
is closely related to arcado-chyprian, a little less close to Ionian.
The Dorian invasion/migration seems to date from the dark ages
(The heraclides legend). There is no continuity in soil occupation
between Myceneans and Dorians.
There is total continuity in Cyprus and Lefkandi, probably in Athens.
None in Asia Minor(Troya/Illion) which was reoccupied by ionians also
during the Dark Ages.

For Linear A: there is a good idea of its structure: Logografic yes. But
no transliteration of it and no clear idea of the language which was
written through it.
Probably not an IE language, but even this is not sure.

With respect ot the Indo_europeans they seem to have arrived to
continental Greece around 2000BC, to Crete around 1350 (If we
consider that the change from Minoan to Mycenean culture reflects this).

The Dorians seem to be a second wawe that arrived around 900BC.


Manius Villius Limitanus


--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Salvete,All! Merlinia, head cook, here!
Well, tomorrow is the DAY!

Try to remember to bring pieces of Ivy, if you have it, to wear & to share;
If you have a picnic bench or II that you can bring, Please do, to
enhance the place (romans sat on a lot of benches)
I hope we are still going to try to use the Picnic tables & benches
from outside; I'll bring a dustbrush to remove any little snow we might
get (Thanks, Elissa!). We will need Bodies to help get them inside.
(too bad we couldn't get in tonight)
I am much better, but I will need help getting food & things into the
kitchen, so, anyone who wishes, 10 am would be a great time to get there.
Valete! See you all tomorrow!
-M.

New Group for fiction writers whose works are set in ancient Rome:

Description Category: Historical Fiction
A discussion group for authors and the artists who illustrate their
works of novels, plays, stories, and poetry related to or set in
Ancient Rome and similar ancient cultures. Includes all genres
including time-travel, historical, and audio plays. Also includes
POD published and self-published as well as any other type of
published authors or those who want to be, of novels, stories,
plays, skits, scripts, and poetry set in ancient Rome and in those
lands involved in ancient Roman history.

Description Category: Historical Fiction
A discussion group for authors and the artists who illustrate their
works of novels, plays, stories, and poetry related to or set in
Ancient Rome and similar ancient cultures. Includes all genres
including time-travel, historical, and audio plays. Also includes
POD published and self-published as well as any other type of
published authors or those who want to be, of novels, stories,
plays, skits, scripts, and poetry set in ancient Rome and in those
lands involved in ancient Roman history.

Post message: RomanScribes@yahoogroups.com
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When mitochondrial Eve's descendants left Africa 60,000 years ago
for good (after a failed attempt 120,000 years ago where the people
starved during an Ice Age in the deserts of Jordan when the water
dried up and the land salted over,)the new Ice Age in East Africa
near Djibouti, left the land devoid of food about 60,000 years ago.
Therefore, the people took the southern route to Yemen and then onto
India, settling there, while another branch continued on to SE Asia
and Australia.

That particular Ice age, one of many, was over by 44,000 years ago,
when a route finally opened to the fertile crescent from India. The
proto-Sanskrit-speaking peoples went west and settled there. By
43,000 years ago another group branched out to Europe, while a group
that finally made it to Lebanon went north and settled Greece. From
there, the branches in Europe went to Spain and France, and by the
end of that Ice Age from 25,000-12,500 BCE, spread all over Europe.
By that time proto-Sanskrit evolved into Latin, Greek, Tocharian,
Hittite, Armenian, Hurrian, Lithuanian, Germanic, etc....in its
proto form before finally evolving into Latin perhaps just before
the Bronze age.

When you look at the DNA, India populated Europe, and by 15,000
years ago, there was no more or only a few people leaving India
again for Europe. The traffic began in the opposite direction. This
is why you find Indian-specific DNA all over Europe (U2 haplogroup
mtDNA and X)from Scandinavia to India. Language often but not always
follows genes, except in the case of Hungary and Turkey where the
oldest genes remain the same as they were in the Bronze age.

Vale,

Octavia Fabia Scriba
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html
(books on DNA and genetics/genealogy)
or
http://reminisciencemedia.tripod.com
(Novels and Stories of Ancient Rome)

Just wondering whether there are any Nova Roma groups that meet in
Sacramento? In any case, I may have a radio play/audio Internet
play/skit available set in ancient Rome that anyone can use free
anytime for fund raising purposes, etc. I'll post where it can be
downloaded when it becomes available. It would be suitable also for
teachers who have history projects for the Jr and Sr high school
students.

Octavia

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:

> My point of view is that we should first of all gain some
>recognition from the macroworld.
> Without it, we are in no position to ask for more taxes or even to
>hope for any donation. Recognition is the main goal of the platform
>of Honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.

I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is a reversal of
priorities, or as the expression in English goes, putting the cart
before the horse. Why should the Macroworld recognize us? It stands
to reason that we cannot receive recognition until we have done
something on our own worth recognizing. How are we to receive
macronational recognition or be taken seriously when only a fraction
of our stated members bother to remain active? Out of our stated 1773
citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax payment or voting.
Until we can give members a reason to pay their taxes and be active,
looking for macronational recognition is a dream and a distraction.

We must concentrate on developing the provinces and encouraging
participation on the local level. From what I understand, the Consul
is working on a plan to encourage the development of local groups. I
support this and look forward to hearing more about it.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

Well said Decius Iunius Palladius

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is a reversal of
priorities, or as the expression in English goes, putting the cart
before the horse. Why should the Macroworld recognize us? It stands
to reason that we cannot receive recognition until we have done
something on our own worth recognizing. How are we to receive
macronational recognition or be taken seriously when only a fraction
of our stated members bother to remain active? Out of our stated 1773
citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax payment or voting.
Until we can give members a reason to pay their taxes and be active,
looking for macronational recognition is a dream and a distraction.

We must concentrate on developing the provinces and encouraging
participation on the local level. From what I understand, the Consul
is working on a plan to encourage the development of local groups. I
support this and look forward to hearing more about it.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius


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--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...>
scripsit:
<snipped>

>
> BTW I missed offering my congratulations to Julillia Sempronia et

Gnaeus Equitius on their appointments as Propraetores.

> I was very pleased that they chose to take up the positions and

even more so to vote for them. I've met Gnaeus and found him to be
the embodiment of Roman virtue. I am proud to have him as a gens mate.

> Julillia, I've yet to meet in person, but from all contact,

official and unofficial, she is a wonderful person who I very much
look forward to meeting. She was always very helpful to me, as
Censor, in my work last year. I'm happy to have had the opportunity
to work with her.

>
> Ave Gn Equitius!
> Ave Julillia Sempronia!
>

Et gratias plurimas amicus meus! Praise from good men is praise
indeed! I look forward to the day we can all meet face-to-face. In
the mean time, I suppose Gnaeus and I had better get to work!

In amicitia,

Julilla Sempronia Magna

Salve Decius Iunius Palladius,

this is exactly what has been proposed. We need to do something in order to get
recognition. It could be of course at the Provincial level and/or it could be at the
Nation level. We need to get known if we want to fulfill our goals.

Vale,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio

> I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is a reversal of
> priorities, or as the expression in English goes, putting the cart
> before the horse. Why should the Macroworld recognize us? It stands
> to reason that we cannot receive recognition until we have done
> something on our own worth recognizing. How are we to receive
> macronational recognition or be taken seriously when only a fraction
> of our stated members bother to remain active? Out of our stated 1773
> citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax payment or voting.
> Until we can give members a reason to pay their taxes and be active,
> looking for macronational recognition is a dream and a distraction.
>
> We must concentrate on developing the provinces and encouraging
> participation on the local level. From what I understand, the Consul
> is working on a plan to encourage the development of local groups. I
> support this and look forward to hearing more about it.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,

> Certain political parties in Macronations are
> exonerating SOME of thier citizens from Income taxes
> to foster class based voting that will place the
> entire tax burden on other citizens who will pay for
> benifts recived by the non tax payers. I See no reason
> to introduce 21st century style class warfare into
> Nova Roma.

This is true but this point is not the main one I was talking about.

> Our tax is a head tax, not an income tax. Each citizen
> from a given Macronation pays an equal tax regardless
> of his income. I Have no objection to a Roman style
> tax where the first class has a higher tax to go with
> thier increased voting powers.

It is my beleif that there should be an adequation between the tax we ask to our citizens
and the services we give them back in return. So far, I think the amount is appropriate.

Vale,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Consular Quaestor

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Salvete Omnes,

please find the latest Roman news at:

http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/

with especially some incredible chariots found in Thrace.

Valete,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Em Sáb, 2003-02-15 às 00:19, biojournalism escreveu:

> When mitochondrial Eve's descendants left Africa 60,000 years ago
> for good (after a failed attempt 120,000 years ago where the people
> starved during an Ice Age in the deserts of Jordan when the water
> dried up and the land salted over,)the new Ice Age in East Africa
> near Djibouti, left the land devoid of food about 60,000 years ago.
> Therefore, the people took the southern route to Yemen and then onto
> India, settling there, while another branch continued on to SE Asia
> and Australia.
>
> That particular Ice age, one of many, was over by 44,000 years ago,
> when a route finally opened to the fertile crescent from India. The
> proto-Sanskrit-speaking peoples went west and settled there. By
> 43,000 years ago another group branched out to Europe, while a group
> that finally made it to Lebanon went north and settled Greece. From
> there, the branches in Europe went to Spain and France, and by the
> end of that Ice Age from 25,000-12,500 BCE, spread all over Europe.
> By that time proto-Sanskrit evolved into Latin, Greek, Tocharian,
> Hittite, Armenian, Hurrian, Lithuanian, Germanic, etc....in its
> proto form before finally evolving into Latin perhaps just before
> the Bronze age.
>
> When you look at the DNA, India populated Europe, and by 15,000
> years ago, there was no more or only a few people leaving India
> again for Europe. The traffic began in the opposite direction. This
> is why you find Indian-specific DNA all over Europe (U2 haplogroup
> mtDNA and X)from Scandinavia to India. Language often but not always
> follows genes, except in the case of Hungary and Turkey where the
> oldest genes remain the same as they were in the Bronze age.
>

You mean mitochondrial DNA, I suppose. Fascinating and thanks for the
links.
But this does not mean that the languages followed those peoples.
The Migrations/mixination showed by mtDNA are definitively real,
but languages are cultural events.
For example very, very little mtDNA has accompanied the wide spread of
french and english through Africa in the 19th century :).
Much more african mtDNA has been incorporated in the spanish and
portuguese "white" people in Latin America.
(For those who don't know it: mtDNA is not mixed in reproduction and
stays very stable, it is transmitted only by the mother).

We really need to separate language, population and religion. Look at
the last 5 centuries in Europe/America/Africa.
There was a large population transfer from Europe to Northern America,
a much smaller to southern America.
There was a large population transfer from Africa to all of America
and a reasonable one to Europe.
But there was a nearly total transfer of indo-european languages to
America and to Africa.
All this was acompanied with a near to total transfer of a semitic
religion to those continents (specially America).

The timescale in prehistory was certainly very different but the effects
could be the same with respect of the differentiation
lnaguage/population/culture.

Vale

Manius Villius Limitanus


--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Salvete, quirites,



I´ve written this small paper about Ancient Religio of the City-State and Plebs on the brazilian list, and I will post here on hope it can be useful to someone undestanding Portuguese as well.




Cap. III - A Formação da cidade


Vamos ouvir o que diz Coulanges:

"Antiga crença ordenava aos homens que honrasse os antepassados; o culto dos antepassados agrupou a família ao redor do altar. Daí a primeira religião, as primeiras orações, a primeira concepção do dever e a primeira moral; daí também a instituição da sociedade , a fixação de ordem de sucessão e, enfim, todo o direito privado e todos os estatutos da organização doméstica. Depois esta crença progrediu e, ao mesmo tempo, ampliou-se associação. Os homens, a medida que sentem que há para eles divindades comuns, vão se associando em grupos cada vez maiores. As mesmas regras, descobertas e aplicadas às famílias, são aplicadas sucessivamente a fratia, a tribo à cidade.

De inicio, a família vive isolada e o homem só conhece os deuses domésticos, theoi patroi, dii gentiles. Acima da família forma-se a fatria, com seu deus, theos phratrios, Juno curialis. A seguir temos a tribo, e o deus da tribo, theos phylios. Chegas-se enfim a cidade e concebe-se um deus cuja providencia abrange a cidade inteira, theos polieus, penates publici. Hierarquia de crenças, hierarquia de associações. A concepção religiosa entre os antigos foi a moldadora da sociedade. "

Estudando a historia da formação de Atenas, este caminho da unificação das tribos fica mais claro. No inicio, a Península Atica estava dividida por Famílias (ver Plutarco, a Vida de Teseu). Dentre as famílias, temos os Eumolpidas, Crecopidas, Gefirenses, Fitálidas, Laquíadas. Cada uma destas gentes vivia em seu ´cantão´ da península com seus deuses particulares, em suas associações, fatrias e tribos. Os Eumolpidas, em Elêuses, adoravam Demeter, os Crecópidas na Acrópole adoravam Atena e Poseidon. E cada pedaço da península tinha seus deuses curiais e tribais: em Maratona adorava-se Hercules, em Prásias Apolo, em Filas um outro Apolo diferente, os Dioscuros em Cefalonia.

Mas a associação religiosa foi tomando corpo: quatro burgos da planície de Maratona uniram-se para adorar Apolo Delfiniano. No Pireu, Falera e locais vizinhos começou um culto comum de adoração a Hercules. As associações (não aglutinações, já que o culto doméstico permanecia independente) deixaram a Ática com doze tribos, doze associações diferentes e nem sempre pacificas entre si, cada uma com seu deus protetor, seu altar, seu fogo sagrado e seu chefe.

Cabe fazermos uma comparação entre este feudalismo antigo com o medieval. Na Antiguidade, essa divisão era religiosa, o que gerava a divisão política. Na Idade Média, com o pensamento religioso mais avançado, apesar da virtual independência dos feudos, deviam obediência a uma autoridade central, e a concepção religiosa estava unificada pelo cristianismo e pela presença ´internacional´ da Igreja Cristã.

A mitologia nos da unificação da Ática pelo lendário rei Teseu. Teseu era um Cecrópida, família esta que tornou-se consideravelmente poderosa na Ática depois de muitas lutas e conquistas contra os Eumólpidas de Elêusis. Teseu unificou o culto da Atica forçando os cantões submetidos a adorarem a Atena Polias do cantão dos Cecropidas (Acrópole). Dai surgiram os sacrifícios comuns das Panateneias e a formação da cidade de Atenas. Antes de Teseu cada burgo tinha seu altar e pritaneu (fogo sagrado) mas Teseu quis que o pritaneu de Atenas (Acrópole) fosse o centro religioso de toda Atica. Isso unificou a península em torno de Atenas, ao mesmo tempo que cada cantão permanecia com seu culto fatrial/tribal primitivo, estava ligado ao culto da cidade. De fato, Elêusis e os Eumolpidas se submeteram aos Cecropidas da Acropolis, mas esta só foi conseguida com a condição de que o sacerdócio de Demeter continuaria sempre na família. Semelhante ´manutenção´ de um culto na família se manifesta em Roma também, como por exemplo no culto de Vênus pela família Júlia.

Em Roma não foi diferente. Um dos primeiros cuidados de Rômulo foi a divisão da cidade em tribos. Provavelmente estas tribos já existiam entre os migrantes fundadores que vieram de Alba Longa, os patrícios. Alba vinha por sua vez de Lavínio, que descendia dos povos arborígenes governados pelo Rei Latino e os troianos, portanto temos na população fundadora de Roma no Palatino uma organização de gens/curia/tribo já bem consagrada e desenvolvida, e de seus líderes formou-se provavelmente o primeiro Senado. A presença de cúrias e tribos já na fundação de Roma é ressaltada pelas lendas da cidade de Jano no Janiculo e Saturno no Capitólio, bem como a cidade árcade do rei Evandro no Palatino (unida em torno da Ara Máxima e o culto a Hércules), registro de ocupações humanas organizadas no local de Roma. A absorção dos sabinos dentro da cidade também não se passou fora destes parâmetros. Rômulo dividiu a população em trinta cúrias cujos nomes foram dados das mulheres sabinas, talvez uma explicação lendárias de cúrias de famílias sabinas em sua origem. Criou também três centúrias de cavaleiros, ranenses, ticienses e lucérios, nomes estes que sabemos hoje serem de origem etrusca, e porque não de organizações de famílias etruscas migrantes?

Ouvimos que Rômulo concedeu asilo a bandoleiros e migrantes para a formação de Roma. Esta nova população, origem da plebe, não tinha a organização religiosa, não eram famílias nem tinham a organização religiosa das gentes/cúrias/tribos, por isso causou sensação quando no período republicano foi dividida nas chamadas ´tribos urbanas´, já que foi uma ´artificial´ divisão política numa divisão religiosa mais antiga. Um dos motivos pelos quais os plebeus no principio não podiam ter acessos às magistraturas, como não possuíam seus cultos familiares, os deuses da cidade não os reconheciam. Dai porque as primeiras magistraturas permitidas aos plebeus não tinham caráter sagrado, como os tribunos militares, tribunos da plebe e edis plebeus (para cuidar dos santuários que a plebe erigia para si)

A cidade antiga era uma confederação. Por isso durante muitos séculos se viu obrigada a respeitar a independencia religiosa e civil das famílias, cúrias e tribos. Duas familias não podiam se fundir, mas podiam se unir para formar uma fatria. Duas fatrias não se fundiam, mas uniam-se nas tribos. que por sua vez nao se mesclavam, mas geraram a cidade. Não importa o que gerou a associação, se a força de uma familia (Cecropidas em Atenas), a força de um homem (Romulo em Roma), proteção e defesa mutua, era o culto comum que se constituia o vinculo desta associação.

Era cidadão quem adorava e era reconhecido pelos deuses da cidade.







Valete bene in pacem deorum,



L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



---------------------------------
Busca Yahoo!
O serviço de busca mais completo da Internet. O que você pensar o Yahoo! encontra.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@...> wrote:

> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,
>
> > Certain political parties in Macronations are
> > exonerating SOME of thier citizens from Income
> taxes
> > to foster class based voting that will place the
> > entire tax burden on other citizens who will pay
> for
> > benifts recived by the non tax payers. I See no
> reason
> > to introduce 21st century style class warfare into
> > Nova Roma.
>
> This is true but this point is not the main one I
> was talking about.
>
> > Our tax is a head tax, not an income tax. Each
> citizen
> > from a given Macronation pays an equal tax
> regardless
> > of his income. I Have no objection to a Roman
> style
> > tax where the first class has a higher tax to go
> with
> > thier increased voting powers.
>
> It is my beleif that there should be an adequation
> between the tax we ask to our citizens
> and the services we give them back in return. So
> far, I think the amount is appropriate.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> Consular Quaestor
>

The current level of Taxes prohibits us from offering
more services to our citizens. If it is maintained we
shall remain primarly an Internet group with little
real world interaction. More services can't precede
higher taxes unless we were willing to borrow money to
provide the services. Higher taxes will have to
precede offering the expanded services.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Salvete Omnes,

There are many groups compeating for recognition in
the Macroworld, and many of these are far larger and
more active than Nova Roma, yet are still ignored. If
all of Nova Roma's citizens lived in a single small
town with a population of a few thousands we would be
recognized by that town. If we all lived in one of the
great cities of the world with a population of over a
million, we would still be ignored by that city
because of our present small size.

We have to grow larger before we shall be recognized
by the larger world. Retaining citizens is an
important step in that growth. Local groups will help
us retain citizens, so I too look forward to seeing
the plan for Local groups.

--- "deciusiunius <bcatfd@...>"
<bcatfd@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Sexte Apolloni,
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Sextus Apollonius
> Scipio
> <scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
> > My point of view is that we should first of all
> gain some
> >recognition from the macroworld.
> > Without it, we are in no position to ask for more
> taxes or even to
> >hope for any donation. Recognition is the main goal
> of the platform
> >of Honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.
>
> I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is
> a reversal of
> priorities, or as the expression in English goes,
> putting the cart
> before the horse. Why should the Macroworld
> recognize us? It stands
> to reason that we cannot receive recognition until
> we have done
> something on our own worth recognizing. How are we
> to receive
> macronational recognition or be taken seriously when
> only a fraction
> of our stated members bother to remain active? Out
> of our stated 1773
> citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax
> payment or voting.
> Until we can give members a reason to pay their
> taxes and be active,
> looking for macronational recognition is a dream and
> a distraction.
>
> We must concentrate on developing the provinces and
> encouraging
> participation on the local level. From what I
> understand, the Consul
> is working on a plan to encourage the development of
> local groups. I
> support this and look forward to hearing more about
> it.
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

This edict sets forth the manner and methods by which
the Aediles Curules shall carry out investigations
into charges and complaints brought by any person -
either citizen or guest or other associate of Nova
Roma - under the lawful authority of the Aedilis
Curulis.

I. As Curule magistrates of Nova Roma, the Aediles
Curules may be approached by any person with a
complaint or charge of wrongdoing by a citizen or
associate or guest of Nova Roma, on matters falling
within the purview of the Aediles Curules. Such
charges must be examined and investigated to establish
the facts and circumstances surrounding the matter.

II. If an offense is obvious, the Aedilis Curulis to
whom charges are brought may elect to conduct a quick
investigation and then deal with the matter. When
charges are complicated, or not obvious, or otherwise
require further investigation, the charges and
complaints shall be investigated either by the Aedilis
Curulis personally, or by his/her designated
representatives (investigatores). These investigations
will be recorded and kept confidential by the Aedilis
Curulis.

III. All investigations into charges and complaints of
wrongdoing shall be conducted in such a way as to
respect the dignitas of all parties concerned.
Investigatores shall maintain strict confidentiality,
discussing matters under investigation only with the
accused, other witnesses, the plaintiff, the Aedilis
Curulis to whom they answer and other investigatores
appointed to the same case. Investigatores shall urge
plaintiffs, accused parties, and witnesses to limit
comment on such matters out of respect for all.

IV. When investigation shows that an offense has
occurred, the Curule Aedile who initiated the
investigation shall exercise invocatio to call the
accused to justice. The manner in which justice is
then served shall be as declared in separate edicta
and other laws of Nova Roma.

V. Records of all investigations - even the most
cursory - shall be kept by the Curule Aediles and
their designated scribae. When a Curule Aedile
relinquishes office that Aedile's confidential records
of investigations shall be transferred into the
custody of the Temple of Ceres, or such other archive
as the Temple of Ceres shall designate, there to be
retained for a period of not less than two years for
investigations which did not lead to trial, and not
less than five years for investigations which did lead
to trial. These records are confidential, and may be
released only to Curule magistrates engaged in their
lawfully appointed duties. They may not be published
save for such portions as become a matter of public
record through being introduced as evidence in a trial
or magisterial nonjudicial hearing.

VI. Each record of investigation shall include, at a
minimum:

a. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the plaintiff(s)
b. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the accused if known
c. Statement of charges and/or complaints including specifications
d. Names (NovaRoman if applicable and legal names) of witnesses
e. Statements of witnesses, plaintiff(s), and accused
f. Investigator's findings of fact and evidence
g. Investigator's conclusions
h. NovaRoman and legal name of Investigator
i. NovaRoman and legal Name of Curule Aedile who
commissioned the investigation, if complaint not
investigated by the Curule Aedile directly.

VI. Investigatores appointed by a Curule Aedile to
investigate charges and complaints brought before the
Aedilis Curulis shall be considered commissioned
representatives of their magistrate, and given full
cooperation in their investigations by all plaintiffs,
witnesses, and other citizens and associates of Nova
Roma. Any citizen who feels that an Investigator thus
appointed has abused their authority to harass,
insult, or otherwise damage a person may bring the
matter to the attention of either Curule Aedile, or
any other Curule magistrate who may wish to intervene,
or in the case of Plebeians, any Tribune of the Plebs.


VII. Each Aedilis Curulis will have at his disposal a
team of four Indagatores (detectives). Each team is
led by a Centurio Indagator. The following rules shall
be followed:
a. the identities of the four Indagatores and of the
Centurio Indagator are secret.
b. the Aedilis Curulis know the identities of his four
Indagatores and of the Centurio Indagator.
c. the Centurio Indagator knows the identities of the
four Indagatores.
d. the four Indagatores know the identity of the
Centurio Indagator.
e. the four Indagatores do not know their respective
identities.

VIII. All the material gathered by the Indagatores
shall be recorded and added to the record (if any)
provided by the Investigatores. Material gathered by
the Indagatores has legal value in case of a trial.

IX. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

XII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

The plaintiff shall be adressed in this edict as
"actor". The defendant shall be adressed as "reus".

I. Wherever possible, the Aediles Curules shall try to
solve a dispute peacefully. If the actor and the reus
can agree on the matter and on the nonjudicial
penalties imposed by the Aedilis Curulis, there will
be no need of a trial. If the reus does not agree with
the nonjudicial penalties imposed by the Aedilis
Curulis, he/she may refuse them and instead insist on
a trial.

II. Nonjudicial penalties The following measures may
be imposed against citizens of Nova Roma by the
Aediles Curules for offenses against the laws, subject
to the provisions listed above which guarantee all
citizens the choice of trial in lieu of Curule
Aedelian imposed nonjudicial penalties:

a. official recommendation to a list moderator that an
offender be removed from the concerned list for a
specified period of time or permanently.
b. official demand for apologies that must be publicly
made in the same forum where the offense was made,
with a copy sent to the Aediles Curules, and another
to all other parties involved.
c. official request to the Censores for the issuance
of a nota against the offender.
d. imposition of a fine of not more than $50 US
(Euro 50, SH 100), to be paid in the same way as taxes
within a time specified by the Aedilis Curulis
imposing the fine.
e. any measure the two parts agree on.
f. all these measures may be combined as the Aediles
Curules see fit.
g. no corporal punishments of any sort, including
flogging, beating with rods from the Lictor's bundle
of fasces, or any other sort of violent physical
contact, may be imposed.

III. In case the Aedilis Curulis receives a petitio
actionis, he shall decide, within 72 hours, if the
petitio actionis shall be presented to a court or if
it shall be dismissed. The Aedilis Curulis can dismiss
a petitio actionis if and only if one of the following
cases applies:

a. The Aedilis Curulis has no competence in the issue,
as the implications are over his jurisdiction.

b. The claim is incongruent.

IV. If the claim is approved by the Aedilis Curulis,
the reus shall be informed of the nature of the claim
presented against him and of the identity of the actor
within 36 hours after the claim's approval.

V. Once a claim has been accepted by an Aedilis
Curulis, that same Aedilis Curulis shall prepare a
formula to present to the judges (iudices). The
formula shall consist of a logical statement that
instructs the iudices on the decision they must take.
The formula shall be structured according to article V
of the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria.

VI. Once the formula is ready, the Aedilis Curulis
shall take at random from the Album Iudicium (see Lex
Salicia Iudiciaria) the names of the judges (iudices)
which will judge the case. The court (tribunalis)
shall be composed of ten (10) iudices.
The following considerations apply:

a. If the Aedilis Curulis considers that a iudex thus
appointed is obviously related by ties of interest to
one of the parts, then the Aedilis Curulis shall, at
his own discretion, dismiss that iudex and cast lots
to appoint a different iudex from the Album Iudicium.

b. A citizen thus appointed to a court shall be able
to ask for an exemption from that judicial work if
there are factors that do not allow him to serve in
that position. That exemption must be asked to the
Aedilis Curulis within 36 hours of the official
announcement of that appointment; the Aedilis Curulis
shall grant that exemption to his own discretion, or
he shall deny it, thus forcing the appointed iudex to
serve or face an accusation of contempt.

c. Each part shall be able to dismiss a iudex for a
maximum of three (3) times, forcing a new iudex to be
taken at random from the Album Iudicium with each
veto. Once both parts agree with the identities of the
iudices, or both have already spent their three
vetoes, the remaining iudices shall be the final
iudices, unless one of the preceding paragraphs
applies.

d. If both parts can agree on a certain citizen of
Nova Roma to judge their case before a definitive
legal iudex has been appointed, then the Aedilis
Curulis shall appoint that citizen iudex for the
current case.

VII. Once the iudices have been appointed, the Aedilis
Curulis shall inform them of the formula they shall
apply. The Aedilis Curulis shall decide if the trial
is going to be conducted under the public scrutiny or,
should the dignitas of innocents be at stake, declare
a secret summary and move the trial away from public
scrutiny.

VIII. Any of the parts can choose to appoint an
advocatus (advocate or barrister) to speak for them in
front of the iudices, or they can choose to speak by
themselves. An advocatus shall not receive a fee for
his services.

IX. The actor shall present evidence to back his
demands, and then the reus shall present evidence to
back his defense. Evidence shall consist of anything
that is relevant to the case, including written text,
visual evidence, the statements of witnesses or
experts. In the case of statements, each part shall
have the right to ask questions to the witnesses and
experts presented by the other part.

X. The Aedilis Curulis shall be the final judge to
determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the
case.

XI. Once both parts have presented their evidences,
each part shall have the opportunity to make one final
allegation in front of the iudices, with the actor
speaking in the first place. Then the Aedilis Curulis
shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the
iudices, reminding them that, in case of doubt, they
must *not* condemn the vendor.

XII. Once the Aedilis Curulis has called for a
sententia, the iudices shall have 72 hours to
deliberate; within those 72 hours, the iudices shall
issue one of the following sentences:

A. ABSOLVO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"absolvo", the reus shall be acquited.

B. CONDEMNO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"condemno", the reus shall be condemned according to
the formula previously established by the praetor.

Should there be a draw in the tribunal's votes, the
reus shall be acquited.

XIII. Once the tribunalis issued his sententia, the
Aedilis Curulis shall immediately inform the parts of
the sententia, and shall enforce any penalties.

XIV. In those cases where the laws of Nova Roma or the
Aedilis Curulis' sense deem it necessary, the formula
shall include one or several of the following
penalties to be inflicted upon a convicted reus:

A. MVLTA PECVNIARIA: a fine payable to the treasury of
Nova Roma. This fine can never exceed US$100 (euro100,
SH200). The convicted reus shall suffer inhabilitatio
(see Lex Salicia Iudiciaria), until the declaration
has been made to the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.
In case the reus has been condemned for unfair
behaviour as customer in a purchase, the fine shall
not exceed 50% of the price of the purchased good or
$100 US (Euro100, SH200), whichever is less.

B. DECLARATIO PVBLICA: the convicted reus shall
publicly recognize the actor's charge in any public
fora indicated in the formula. The convicted reus
shall suffer inhabilitatio (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), until the declaration has been made to
the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.

In those case where the reus belongs to the Ordo
Equester and has been condemned for unfair business
practice, the formula can also include:

C. EXACTIO EX ORDINE EQVESTRE: the convicted reus
shall loose his membership in the Ordo Equester and
all the rights and duties associated with it for a set
(but not necessarily limited) period of time, or until
a certain condition is met; any condition or time
period must be explicitly stated in the formula.

XV. In those cases where a crime would require
inhabilitatio or exactio as a penalty (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), the potential imposition of such measure
shall be submitted to the Praetorial tribunalis.
However the Aedilis Curulis' tribunalis shall judge
the part of the case not requiring one of this
penalties.

XVI. Once a reus has been absolved he shall not be
judged again under the same accusations.

XVII. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

XVIII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.
Given 15th February, in the year of the
consulship of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus
Labienus Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium IV de Iusta Mercatura [Fair Business Practices]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

- Introduction
Since the establishment of the office of Curule Aedile
in antiquity, the Curule Aedile has been charged with
maintaining fair and just business practices within
the marketplaces of Roma. Nova Roman citizens deserve
the same assurances of fair dealing as their fellow
Roman citizens of antiquity, and promise of redress in
the event of grievance.

Therefore:

I. Marketplaces under this edict include world wide
web based businesses operated by members of the Ordo
Equester, businesses operating at sponsored Nova Roma
events, and any other business activity carried out
with express knowledge that Nova Roma citizens are
involved, whether by Nova Roma citizens or by
associates who knowingly do business with Nova Roma.
Vendors under this Edictum are all those people
working within a marketplace.

II. The vendor has the obligation to provide quality
in the commercial process, the commercial process
being composed of the item, the payment means and the
consignment.

III. The vendor has the obligation to declare the
hidden defects of the item, the hidden defects being
those which are not immediately apparent to the
purchaser in the first analysis.

IV. Any Nova Roman citizen may seek justice from the
Curule Aediles in the event they feel they have been
dealt with unfairly in any marketplace operating under
the authority of Nova Roma.

V. Should the purchaser deem to have found in the item
a defect which had not been declared by the vendor, or
should the item be damaged because of the vendor's
fault, or should the purchaser be disappointed by the
lack of quality of the commercial process, the
purchaser shall be able to bring an action ("actio")
against the vendor him/herself (henceforth in the
masculine form). The actio the purchaser is intending
to exert must be announced to one of the Aediles
Curules ("editio actionis"), asking to start the
procedure ("petitio actionis").

VI. The purchaser can ask for one of the following
actiones:

a. "Actio redhibitoria": this actio must be announced
within one (1) week from the delivery of the item (a
delivery document shall be provided), excluding any
periods in which such actions are prohibited.
According to this actio, the purchaser returns the
item and receives the whole paid price.

b. "Actio quanti minoris": this actio must be
announced within two (2) weeks from the delivery of
the item (a delivery document shall be provided),
excluding any periods in which such actions are
prohibited. According to this actio, the purchaser
keeps the item and receives the difference between the
paid price and the price he would pay if he knew the
defect of the item.

Such actions can not be exerted if case the defect
occurred after the delivery of the item.

VII. These actiones can be exerted independently of
the fact that the defects are attributable to the
vendor's lack of diligence, i.e. a fault, or to his
will to cause a damage on his own behalf, i.e. a
fraud.

VIII. Should the vendor deem to have been damaged or
defreauded by an unfair behaviour of the customer, the
vendor shall be able to bring an actio against the
customer himself. The vendor must announce the actio
he is intending to exert to one of the Aediles Curules
("editio actionis"), asking to start the procedure
("petitio actionis") within one (1) month from the
sale.

IX. Should the Aedilis Curulis deem it necessary, he
can start secret investigations thus fulfilling
section IV.A.4.e of the Constitution.

X. Should the Aedilis Curulis deem the Res Publica of
Nova Roma to have been damaged or defreauded by an
unfair behaviour of a vendor, the Aedils Curulis shall
be able to bring an action against him. The vendor
shall be informed of the nature of the claim presented
against him.

XI. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

XII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February , in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

- Introduction
In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma,
section IV.A.4.b, the Aediles Curules have the
obligation to see to the conduct of public games and
other festivals and gatherings and to ensure order at
public religious events.

Therefore:

I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
consequence, during the Ludi:

a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
of any kind on any official Forum

b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
against somebody

c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
place

II. In those cases where the Aedilis Curulis' sense
deem it necessary, the Aedilis Curulis shall be able
to take the following measures:

a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
immediately ceased through an Edictum.

b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
until the Ludi are concluded.

III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
those actions which interfere with their regular
course and directly or indirectly cause a
disturbation.

IV. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

V. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

Salve Illustrus Senator!

>There are many groups compeating for recognition in
>the Macroworld, and many of these are far larger and
>more active than Nova Roma, yet are still ignored.

But, in Europe there is no Roman organisation working all over the
Roman "field"and EU seem to be looking for some organisation that is
working with the ancient Roman culture. This is a good opportunity
for us, we must take it and even if we don't succeed, because we are
so small I think it will make us more known and maybe give us a
better position in the future. There is no meaning in hiding in the
dark. You see, since EU became what it is today it is usual among
Europeans to try to get money from different EU-projects. I have many
friends that have tried it or are going to try it. Some succeed and
some fail.

>If
>all of Nova Roma's citizens lived in a single small
>town with a population of a few thousands we would be
>recognized by that town.

Yes I agree that we also shall try to get known in places where we
may easily succeed to be recognized.

>If we all lived in one of the
>great cities of the world with a population of over a
>million, we would still be ignored by that city
>because of our present small size.
>
>We have to grow larger before we shall be recognized
>by the larger world. Retaining citizens is an
>important step in that growth. Local groups will help
>us retain citizens, so I too look forward to seeing
>the plan for Local groups.

Yes as our Colleague Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius mentioned that
I am planing for a law about Local groups. At the moment I am
listening to the discussion and will later present a law. Still there
is noting to prevent Governors or citizens to start inofficial
groups. In my city we are four citizens and have all met informally a
few times. In the autumn we plan to help the Legatus for Suecica to
spread some broschure and PR for Nova Roma.

I also plan to try to start a campaign for Nova Roma on the
Macronational level (mostly universities and student organisations)
during my term as a Consul. This will be done in cooperation with the
Egressus although at the moment everything is just dreams. When this
campaign starts all citizens will be needded! ;-)

>--- "deciusiunius <bcatfd@...>"
><bcatfd@...> wrote:
>>
>> Salve Sexte Apolloni,
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Sextus Apollonius
>> Scipio
>> <scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
>> > My point of view is that we should first of all
>> gain some
>> >recognition from the macroworld.
>> > Without it, we are in no position to ask for more
>> taxes or even to
>> >hope for any donation. Recognition is the main goal
>> of the platform
>> >of Honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.
>>
>> I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is
>> a reversal of
>> priorities, or as the expression in English goes,
>> putting the cart
>> before the horse. Why should the Macroworld
>> recognize us? It stands
>> to reason that we cannot receive recognition until
>> we have done
>> something on our own worth recognizing. How are we
>> to receive
>> macronational recognition or be taken seriously when
>> only a fraction
>> of our stated members bother to remain active? Out
>> of our stated 1773
>> citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax
>> payment or voting.
>> Until we can give members a reason to pay their
>> taxes and be active,
>> looking for macronational recognition is a dream and
>> a distraction.
>>
>> We must concentrate on developing the provinces and
>> encouraging
>> participation on the local level. From what I
>> understand, the Consul
>> is working on a plan to encourage the development of
>> local groups. I
>> support this and look forward to hearing more about
>> it.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Decius Iunius Palladius
>>
>>
>
>
>=====
>L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>Roman Citizen
>
>__________________________________________________
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--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Avete Omnes,

What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct investigations outside of the marketplace? This is my first question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; Collegium_Aediles@yahoogroups.com ; cohors_fac@yahoogroups.com ; Bill Gawne
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:15 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]


Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

This edict sets forth the manner and methods by which
the Aediles Curules shall carry out investigations
into charges and complaints brought by any person -
either citizen or guest or other associate of Nova
Roma - under the lawful authority of the Aedilis
Curulis.

I. As Curule magistrates of Nova Roma, the Aediles
Curules may be approached by any person with a
complaint or charge of wrongdoing by a citizen or
associate or guest of Nova Roma, on matters falling
within the purview of the Aediles Curules. Such
charges must be examined and investigated to establish
the facts and circumstances surrounding the matter.

II. If an offense is obvious, the Aedilis Curulis to
whom charges are brought may elect to conduct a quick
investigation and then deal with the matter. When
charges are complicated, or not obvious, or otherwise
require further investigation, the charges and
complaints shall be investigated either by the Aedilis
Curulis personally, or by his/her designated
representatives (investigatores). These investigations
will be recorded and kept confidential by the Aedilis
Curulis.

III. All investigations into charges and complaints of
wrongdoing shall be conducted in such a way as to
respect the dignitas of all parties concerned.
Investigatores shall maintain strict confidentiality,
discussing matters under investigation only with the
accused, other witnesses, the plaintiff, the Aedilis
Curulis to whom they answer and other investigatores
appointed to the same case. Investigatores shall urge
plaintiffs, accused parties, and witnesses to limit
comment on such matters out of respect for all.

IV. When investigation shows that an offense has
occurred, the Curule Aedile who initiated the
investigation shall exercise invocatio to call the
accused to justice. The manner in which justice is
then served shall be as declared in separate edicta
and other laws of Nova Roma.

V. Records of all investigations - even the most
cursory - shall be kept by the Curule Aediles and
their designated scribae. When a Curule Aedile
relinquishes office that Aedile's confidential records
of investigations shall be transferred into the
custody of the Temple of Ceres, or such other archive
as the Temple of Ceres shall designate, there to be
retained for a period of not less than two years for
investigations which did not lead to trial, and not
less than five years for investigations which did lead
to trial. These records are confidential, and may be
released only to Curule magistrates engaged in their
lawfully appointed duties. They may not be published
save for such portions as become a matter of public
record through being introduced as evidence in a trial
or magisterial nonjudicial hearing.

VI. Each record of investigation shall include, at a
minimum:

a. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the plaintiff(s)
b. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the accused if known
c. Statement of charges and/or complaints including specifications
d. Names (NovaRoman if applicable and legal names) of witnesses
e. Statements of witnesses, plaintiff(s), and accused
f. Investigator's findings of fact and evidence
g. Investigator's conclusions
h. NovaRoman and legal name of Investigator
i. NovaRoman and legal Name of Curule Aedile who
commissioned the investigation, if complaint not
investigated by the Curule Aedile directly.

VI. Investigatores appointed by a Curule Aedile to
investigate charges and complaints brought before the
Aedilis Curulis shall be considered commissioned
representatives of their magistrate, and given full
cooperation in their investigations by all plaintiffs,
witnesses, and other citizens and associates of Nova
Roma. Any citizen who feels that an Investigator thus
appointed has abused their authority to harass,
insult, or otherwise damage a person may bring the
matter to the attention of either Curule Aedile, or
any other Curule magistrate who may wish to intervene,
or in the case of Plebeians, any Tribune of the Plebs.


VII. Each Aedilis Curulis will have at his disposal a
team of four Indagatores (detectives). Each team is
led by a Centurio Indagator. The following rules shall
be followed:
a. the identities of the four Indagatores and of the
Centurio Indagator are secret.
b. the Aedilis Curulis know the identities of his four
Indagatores and of the Centurio Indagator.
c. the Centurio Indagator knows the identities of the
four Indagatores.
d. the four Indagatores know the identity of the
Centurio Indagator.
e. the four Indagatores do not know their respective
identities.

VIII. All the material gathered by the Indagatores
shall be recorded and added to the record (if any)
provided by the Investigatores. Material gathered by
the Indagatores has legal value in case of a trial.

IX. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

XII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Avete Omnes,

----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; Collegium_Aediles@yahoogroups.com ; cohors_fac@yahoogroups.com ; Bill Gawne
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:17 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]


Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

- Introduction
In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma,
section IV.A.4.b, the Aediles Curules have the
obligation to see to the conduct of public games and
other festivals and gatherings and to ensure order at
public religious events.

Therefore:

I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
consequence, during the Ludi:

Sulla: As a non-Pagan, I have a question, who determines if the games are Sacrosant? Wouldnt that be in the pervue of the College of Pontiffs?
a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
of any kind on any official Forum

Sulla: Who determines what is harsh discussions? Isnt this in the pervue of the Praetors? This in my opinion is very dangerous and subjective.

b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
against somebody

Sulla: So you are preventing citizens from using the legal system during this time?

c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
place

Sulla: Define disturb please.

II. In those cases where the Aedilis Curulis' sense
deem it necessary, the Aedilis Curulis shall be able
to take the following measures:

a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
immediately ceased through an Edictum.

Sulla: I do not think you have the authority to do this. It is the Praetors that moderate official forums, not Aediles. And if the edicts regarding the subjects are obeyed you cannot overpower their edict based on the legal precedence clause of the Constitution of Nova Roma (Section I.B.)

b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
until the Ludi are concluded.

Sulla: See my previous comment.

III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
those actions which interfere with their regular
course and directly or indirectly cause a
disturbation.

Sulla: See my above concerns.

IV. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

V. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Sulla: As a citizen, I would like to have this edict clarified. Thank you.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Avete Omnes,

As I am reading over this edict my first question is the same as a previous question I asked:

Avete Omnes,

What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct trials/mediations and arbitrations outside of the marketplace? This is my first question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; Bill Gawne ; Collegium_Aediles@yahoogroups.com ; cohors_fac@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:17 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions]


Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions]
15th February, 2756

Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris

The plaintiff shall be adressed in this edict as
"actor". The defendant shall be adressed as "reus".

I. Wherever possible, the Aediles Curules shall try to
solve a dispute peacefully. If the actor and the reus
can agree on the matter and on the nonjudicial
penalties imposed by the Aedilis Curulis, there will
be no need of a trial. If the reus does not agree with
the nonjudicial penalties imposed by the Aedilis
Curulis, he/she may refuse them and instead insist on
a trial.

II. Nonjudicial penalties The following measures may
be imposed against citizens of Nova Roma by the
Aediles Curules for offenses against the laws, subject
to the provisions listed above which guarantee all
citizens the choice of trial in lieu of Curule
Aedelian imposed nonjudicial penalties:

a. official recommendation to a list moderator that an
offender be removed from the concerned list for a
specified period of time or permanently.
b. official demand for apologies that must be publicly
made in the same forum where the offense was made,
with a copy sent to the Aediles Curules, and another
to all other parties involved.
c. official request to the Censores for the issuance
of a nota against the offender.
d. imposition of a fine of not more than $50 US
(Euro 50, SH 100), to be paid in the same way as taxes
within a time specified by the Aedilis Curulis
imposing the fine.
e. any measure the two parts agree on.
f. all these measures may be combined as the Aediles
Curules see fit.
g. no corporal punishments of any sort, including
flogging, beating with rods from the Lictor's bundle
of fasces, or any other sort of violent physical
contact, may be imposed.

III. In case the Aedilis Curulis receives a petitio
actionis, he shall decide, within 72 hours, if the
petitio actionis shall be presented to a court or if
it shall be dismissed. The Aedilis Curulis can dismiss
a petitio actionis if and only if one of the following
cases applies:

a. The Aedilis Curulis has no competence in the issue,
as the implications are over his jurisdiction.

b. The claim is incongruent.

IV. If the claim is approved by the Aedilis Curulis,
the reus shall be informed of the nature of the claim
presented against him and of the identity of the actor
within 36 hours after the claim's approval.

V. Once a claim has been accepted by an Aedilis
Curulis, that same Aedilis Curulis shall prepare a
formula to present to the judges (iudices). The
formula shall consist of a logical statement that
instructs the iudices on the decision they must take.
The formula shall be structured according to article V
of the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria.

VI. Once the formula is ready, the Aedilis Curulis
shall take at random from the Album Iudicium (see Lex
Salicia Iudiciaria) the names of the judges (iudices)
which will judge the case. The court (tribunalis)
shall be composed of ten (10) iudices.
The following considerations apply:

a. If the Aedilis Curulis considers that a iudex thus
appointed is obviously related by ties of interest to
one of the parts, then the Aedilis Curulis shall, at
his own discretion, dismiss that iudex and cast lots
to appoint a different iudex from the Album Iudicium.

b. A citizen thus appointed to a court shall be able
to ask for an exemption from that judicial work if
there are factors that do not allow him to serve in
that position. That exemption must be asked to the
Aedilis Curulis within 36 hours of the official
announcement of that appointment; the Aedilis Curulis
shall grant that exemption to his own discretion, or
he shall deny it, thus forcing the appointed iudex to
serve or face an accusation of contempt.

c. Each part shall be able to dismiss a iudex for a
maximum of three (3) times, forcing a new iudex to be
taken at random from the Album Iudicium with each
veto. Once both parts agree with the identities of the
iudices, or both have already spent their three
vetoes, the remaining iudices shall be the final
iudices, unless one of the preceding paragraphs
applies.

d. If both parts can agree on a certain citizen of
Nova Roma to judge their case before a definitive
legal iudex has been appointed, then the Aedilis
Curulis shall appoint that citizen iudex for the
current case.

VII. Once the iudices have been appointed, the Aedilis
Curulis shall inform them of the formula they shall
apply. The Aedilis Curulis shall decide if the trial
is going to be conducted under the public scrutiny or,
should the dignitas of innocents be at stake, declare
a secret summary and move the trial away from public
scrutiny.

VIII. Any of the parts can choose to appoint an
advocatus (advocate or barrister) to speak for them in
front of the iudices, or they can choose to speak by
themselves. An advocatus shall not receive a fee for
his services.

IX. The actor shall present evidence to back his
demands, and then the reus shall present evidence to
back his defense. Evidence shall consist of anything
that is relevant to the case, including written text,
visual evidence, the statements of witnesses or
experts. In the case of statements, each part shall
have the right to ask questions to the witnesses and
experts presented by the other part.

X. The Aedilis Curulis shall be the final judge to
determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the
case.

XI. Once both parts have presented their evidences,
each part shall have the opportunity to make one final
allegation in front of the iudices, with the actor
speaking in the first place. Then the Aedilis Curulis
shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the
iudices, reminding them that, in case of doubt, they
must *not* condemn the vendor.

XII. Once the Aedilis Curulis has called for a
sententia, the iudices shall have 72 hours to
deliberate; within those 72 hours, the iudices shall
issue one of the following sentences:

A. ABSOLVO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"absolvo", the reus shall be acquited.

B. CONDEMNO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"condemno", the reus shall be condemned according to
the formula previously established by the praetor.

Should there be a draw in the tribunal's votes, the
reus shall be acquited.

XIII. Once the tribunalis issued his sententia, the
Aedilis Curulis shall immediately inform the parts of
the sententia, and shall enforce any penalties.

XIV. In those cases where the laws of Nova Roma or the
Aedilis Curulis' sense deem it necessary, the formula
shall include one or several of the following
penalties to be inflicted upon a convicted reus:

A. MVLTA PECVNIARIA: a fine payable to the treasury of
Nova Roma. This fine can never exceed US$100 (euro100,
SH200). The convicted reus shall suffer inhabilitatio
(see Lex Salicia Iudiciaria), until the declaration
has been made to the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.
In case the reus has been condemned for unfair
behaviour as customer in a purchase, the fine shall
not exceed 50% of the price of the purchased good or
$100 US (Euro100, SH200), whichever is less.

B. DECLARATIO PVBLICA: the convicted reus shall
publicly recognize the actor's charge in any public
fora indicated in the formula. The convicted reus
shall suffer inhabilitatio (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), until the declaration has been made to
the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.

In those case where the reus belongs to the Ordo
Equester and has been condemned for unfair business
practice, the formula can also include:

C. EXACTIO EX ORDINE EQVESTRE: the convicted reus
shall loose his membership in the Ordo Equester and
all the rights and duties associated with it for a set
(but not necessarily limited) period of time, or until
a certain condition is met; any condition or time
period must be explicitly stated in the formula.

XV. In those cases where a crime would require
inhabilitatio or exactio as a penalty (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), the potential imposition of such measure
shall be submitted to the Praetorial tribunalis.
However the Aedilis Curulis' tribunalis shall judge
the part of the case not requiring one of this
penalties.

XVI. Once a reus has been absolved he shall not be
judged again under the same accusations.

XVII. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.

XVIII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.
Given 15th February, in the year of the
consulship of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus
Labienus Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete!

Just a reminder, there will be a Nova Britannia get-together tomorrow,
Sunday February 16th at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts (www.mfa.org).

Title: GALLERY TALK - Celebrating "Lupercalia," the ancient precursor of
Valentine's Day
Date: Sunday, February 16, 2003
Time: 2 p.m.
Calendar: Talks, Courses, and Lectures
By: Henry Augustine Tate
Meet at the Sharf Information Center.

I would like to meet at the Sharf Information Center inside the MFA at
1:00-1:30 pm. This will give everyone time to get organized and
acquainted prior to the start of the tour. Admission is $15.00 for
adults, $13.00 for seniors and college students, and youths (7-17)
admitted free (on Sundays). If you came to the event last weekend, BRING
YOUR TICKET! It's good for two visits to the museum within 30 days! If
you need directions, they are available at:
http://www.mfa.org/visit/directions.htm After the gallery talk we can
always check out other portions of the Museum or grab something to eat
time permitting.

To avoid any of the confusion we encountered last week. I am 5'7" with
glasses and no hair (well, it's just really, really short). I'll be
carrying a green Army helmet bag and wearing/carrying a blue jacket.
I'll stand over by the TV monitors in the Sharf information center.

Thanks, and I hope to see you all there!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Lictor
Minerva Templi Sacerdotes

Patria est communis omnium parens.
"Our native land is the common parent of us all." - Cicero



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:

> Avete Omnes,
>
> What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct

investigations outside of the marketplace? This is my first
question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other
edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you
can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.

Well, first of all I would think that perhaps last year, when you was
the Iunior Consul, you had no time to read those Edicts published by
Honourable Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, who was Aedilis Curulis. Those
Edicts already stated such opportunity for the Aediles Curules, so
nothing has been changed.

Respectfully,

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor

-----Original Message-----
From : “Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@...>“

>
>Ah, I see. I was originally confused by your message, but I think I
>understand where we've misunderstood one another. I was talking
>about the vowels which IE *had* being closer to those of Latin and
>Greek - not necessarily that Latin words have those same vowel sounds
>in the right places in equivalent words.
>

Not far off though, especially in the 2nd declension. I notice they're never called declensions in Sanskrit and it is easier to see the basic endings before they simplified in one sense but became more complex in another under more-than-sandhi influence.

>
>Another thing you might be interested in, which I've been taught over
>the last couple of weeks and is apparently another new development,
>is that the centum/satem divide is no longer considered to be so
>strictly an East/West divide as was once thought. Just a point of
>interest :) I find that shift very interesting myself, I'd be
>interested to know more about what caused it if anyone has any
>references for theories on that - it seems to be one of those things
>they just teach you is the case, and *may* explain later but may not.
>

It is even less meaningful when we consider the present pronunciation of Centum! It's easier to tell the Sanskrit pronunciation because the script was intended to teach phonetics, so really belongs to a period when it was becoming necessary to teach proper mantra pronunciation. Even then we can't tell, going West, whether final Latin M, Greek N might have also been mere nasalisation (forget the term) but it looks likely. Cicero complains that people keep dropping their S, especially final. Take the final S out of Latin and it's virtually Italian! Apparantly Plautus still wrote the 2nd Ablative ending in D and a few other lost endings. English has almost lost the letter T but it isn't worrying anybody.

Caesariensis.


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-----Original Message-----
From : “Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@...>“ <livia@...>

>
>Yay, digamma! :)
>

Also in Thesewos, Danawos (how like the Irish Tuatha de Danaan!) and that indeed Basilewos. I though Wanax was originally some sort of underling, just as Lord and Lady started out as Hlaf-weard (loaf-ward[en]) and Hlaf-diger (Loaf-doer[maker]).

>Which sheds interesting light on most Homeric scholars' stubborn
>insistence on claiming that every instance of the word basileus
>should be interpreted as 'king', with all that implies - and
>inferring about the society based on that.
>

I didn't know it ever occurred in Homer. I understood it to be non-Greek (which is true if Minoan) and only ever used as Ho Megas Basileus (town Persown) as The General Secretary to us could only refer to the UN, not to the local Trade Union.

Caesariensis.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From : “biojournalism <biojournalism@...>“

>
>When you look at the DNA, India populated Europe, and by 15,000
>years ago, there was no more or only a few people leaving India
>again for Europe. The traffic began in the opposite direction. This
>is why you find Indian-specific DNA all over Europe (U2 haplogroup
>mtDNA and X)from Scandinavia to India. Language often but not always
>follows genes, except in the case of Hungary and Turkey where the
>oldest genes remain the same as they were in the Bronze age.
>

There is an interesting, though as stated exploded, theory by Stan Gooch that Neanderthal originated in Africa, Cro-Magnon in India and the two met in Palestine, the result being 3 races of which white, CM dominant, black, equal mix, yellow N dominant.
Restated, a lot of it and some more fits your view of a trek back from India as long as there were some people in the mid-East as well. There is a complete divergence of behaviours (which Gooch attributes to the behaviours of African and Asian apes but need not be from that). C (male) stands tall and threatens by posturing a bristling beard; N threatens by hunkering down and snarling/grinning. N mates from behind and males signal compliance by adopting mating posture; C mates from in front and mooning is a deadly insult. N females are promiscuous and predatory, C are 'chaste needing to be chased'. C looks to the brightness of the desert Sun and the {asiatic} lion {These are rare: I've had the good fortune to see one in a zoo, browner than African, more elegant and panther-like}, N to the wisdom of the Earth and the Serpent.
Genetics show no Neanderthal in our history though I don't know how seeing that we share 98% DNA with a chimpanzee and 50% with a banana, so that aspect is wrong but the possibility of archaic misunderstandings and the memory passing on from that specific part of the world into the bible and so on could still fit your view.

Caesariensis.


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AVE LVCI CORNELI SVLLA SENATOR

> I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
> consequence, during the Ludi:
>
> Sulla: As a non-Pagan, I have a question, who determines if the

games are Sacrosant? Wouldnt that be in the pervue of the College of
Pontiffs?

And as a non-Pagan I say that you could be right on this point. Let
the Pontifex Maximus tell whether the edict can be kept this way or
that word should be modified.

> a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
> of any kind on any official Forum
>
> Sulla: Who determines what is harsh discussions? Isnt this in

the pervue of the Praetors?

Of course! I couldn't agree more! The Praetors must say what is harsh
discussions. This Edictum just say that harsh discussions (according
to the Praetores' definition) are not allowed during the Ludi.

> b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
> against somebody
>
> Sulla: So you are preventing citizens from using the legal

system during this time?

For several days which shall be completely dedicated to the Ludi.
Enjoy them!

> c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
> the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
> disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
> place
>
> Sulla: Define disturb please.

Well, I don't think I would be good in tranlsating the definition of
the word "disturb" from Italian into English. However, that is. I
think you can imagine what could disturb the normal course of the
Ludi.

> a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
> immediately ceased through an Edictum.
>
> Sulla: I do not think you have the authority to do this. It is

the Praetors that moderate official forums, not Aediles. And if the
edicts regarding the subjects are obeyed you cannot overpower their
edict based on the legal precedence clause of the Constitution of
Nova Roma (Section I.B.)

It doesn't say "to expel an individual", "to issue a nota", "to put
under modaration", nor anything like that. It says: If you are
disturbing the Ludi the Curule Aedile tells you to stop, as the
Curule Aedile is in charge of their conduct.
However, I'm sure that a Curule Aedile will never act ignoring an
edict issued by a Praetor. Should this happen, the Praetor will veto
it, that's logical.

> b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
> under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
> until the Ludi are concluded.
>
> Sulla: See my previous comment.

It says "to ask". It means that the Aedilis may ask that (of course,
to a Praetor, the only magistrate entitled to put an individual under
moderation). Just consider that it's nothing extraordinary: every
citizen could ask so, as it is just "asking".

> III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
> able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
> individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
> nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
> those actions which interfere with their regular
> course and directly or indirectly cause a
> disturbation.
>
> Sulla: See my above concerns.

Again, that "sacrosanct". You could be right.

> Sulla: As a citizen, I would like to have this edict clarified.

Thank you.

_I_ thank you! A discussion on a serious matter can only be an
advantage for everybody!

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor

Salvete omnes!

Please could anyone tell me how and when the word "regina" started to be
used as a female name?

Besides, does anyone here know something about Japanese surnames and
heraldry?

Valete.
________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Accensus Junior Petitor Cohortis Consulis CFQ
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Scriba Retiarius Provinciae Brasiliae
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae

tagenialis@...
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ UIN: 75873373
________________________________________


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

muito obrigado pelo texto, � raro ver algo em portugu�s, por estas bandas :-)

They must have slipped by me with all of the extra tasks I had as Consul. Like trying to increase the authority of the Curule Aediles jurisdiction by giving them their historical role in supervising the marketplace. But my question still stands, Manius Constantinus. What justidictional authority gives the Aediles the ability to conduct investigations outside of the marketplace. If they cannot come up with a suitable answer to that I suggest the Praetors or Consuls to veto this edict.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 3:01 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct
investigations outside of the marketplace? This is my first
question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other
edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you
can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.

Well, first of all I would think that perhaps last year, when you was
the Iunior Consul, you had no time to read those Edicts published by
Honourable Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, who was Aedilis Curulis. Those
Edicts already stated such opportunity for the Aediles Curules, so
nothing has been changed.

Respectfully,

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Avete Manius Constantius et Omnes,

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]


AVE LVCI CORNELI SVLLA SENATOR

> I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
> consequence, during the Ludi:
>
> Sulla: As a non-Pagan, I have a question, who determines if the
games are Sacrosant? Wouldnt that be in the pervue of the College of
Pontiffs?

And as a non-Pagan I say that you could be right on this point. Let
the Pontifex Maximus tell whether the edict can be kept this way or
that word should be modified.

Sulla: So you agree that this is outside of the pervue of the Aediles. Thank you for your agreement.
> a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
> of any kind on any official Forum
>
> Sulla: Who determines what is harsh discussions? Isnt this in
the pervue of the Praetors?

Of course! I couldn't agree more! The Praetors must say what is harsh
discussions. This Edictum just say that harsh discussions (according
to the Praetores' definition) are not allowed during the Ludi.

Sulla: Again, thank you for your agreement that this is outside of the pervue of the Aediles.

> b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
> against somebody
>
> Sulla: So you are preventing citizens from using the legal
system during this time?

For several days which shall be completely dedicated to the Ludi.
Enjoy them!

Sulla: I have a problem with this clause. If a citizen has been wronged then they should have every opportunity to seek a redress of greivances. Regardless if the games are on our not. Imagine for a moment that we have land....and we have a coliseum, and a riot breaks out....and people get hurt. Should they not have the ability to seek redress with the local Aedile who has sponsored the game. Granted my example is in the future. But I am certain we can come up with examples that can easily happen in the present.

> c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
> the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
> disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
> place
>
> Sulla: Define disturb please.

Well, I don't think I would be good in tranlsating the definition of
the word "disturb" from Italian into English. However, that is. I
think you can imagine what could disturb the normal course of the
Ludi.

Sulla: My problem with the word "distrurb" is it is too subjective. What does that word mean in relation to the lex. Laws should be objective and not subjective. This wording is so vague that it can be abused.

> a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
> immediately ceased through an Edictum.
>
> Sulla: I do not think you have the authority to do this. It is
the Praetors that moderate official forums, not Aediles. And if the
edicts regarding the subjects are obeyed you cannot overpower their
edict based on the legal precedence clause of the Constitution of
Nova Roma (Section I.B.)

It doesn't say "to expel an individual", "to issue a nota", "to put
under modaration", nor anything like that. It says: If you are
disturbing the Ludi the Curule Aedile tells you to stop, as the
Curule Aedile is in charge of their conduct.
However, I'm sure that a Curule Aedile will never act ignoring an
edict issued by a Praetor. Should this happen, the Praetor will veto
it, that's logical.

Sulla: I still think it oversteps the authority given to the Praetors. You are broadening your jurisdictional authority by interferring with the roles of the Praetor and their jurisdiction in moderating official Nova Roma forums.

> b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
> under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
> until the Ludi are concluded.
>
> Sulla: See my previous comment.

It says "to ask". It means that the Aedilis may ask that (of course,
to a Praetor, the only magistrate entitled to put an individual under
moderation). Just consider that it's nothing extraordinary: every
citizen could ask so, as it is just "asking".

Sulla: But your previous section does not make the distinction of asking. It states to officially require the disturbing factor to be immediately ceased through an edict. This is a conflict in your edict. Strike the above clause then.

> III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
> able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
> individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
> nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
> those actions which interfere with their regular
> course and directly or indirectly cause a
> disturbation.
>
> Sulla: See my above concerns.

Again, that "sacrosanct". You could be right.

Sulla: Thank you for your agreement.

> Sulla: As a citizen, I would like to have this edict clarified.
Thank you.

_I_ thank you! A discussion on a serious matter can only be an
advantage for everybody!

Sulla: I agree completely.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor



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