Salvete omnes,

This is a very important matter, plebeians, not only for us, but all
citizens. The election of the last Tribune of the Plebis this year is
sure a great deal for the fulfillment of our magistracies and good of
the Res Publica! Let´s go to the cista!


I also want to appeal for the participation of all in the next three
great ludi enriching our times that were coming, Megalesia, Cerealia
and Floralia! A great and funny way of growing on romanitas!


L. Arminius Faustus
Senior Plebeain Aedile et Quaestor



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel O. Villanueva"
<danielovi@c...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Tribunus Plebis Lucius Pompeius Octavianus Comitiis Plebis

Tributis SPD

>
>
>
> Regarding Run-off Elections in the Comitia Plebis Tributa for the 1

(one) vacant

>
> office of Tribunis Plebis for the year MMDCCLVI.
>
> The auspices being propitious, as Tribunus Plebis I hereby

officially

>
> convene the Comitia Plebis Tributa to elect the 1(one) vacant seat

of Tribunus

>
>

<snipped>

> Valete optime
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
>
> Tribunus Plebis
>
>

Salvete,

please find the latest news at:

http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/

Have a nice week end!

Valete,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

L. Equitius wrote:

>Romans don't look kindly on treaty breakers!

Thus the eager attribution of a lack of such to the Carthaginians--and the
creation of the phrase "Punic faith"--when, alas, it was Rome that violated
the terms of the treaty between Rome and Carthage. So important was it not
to be the violator (as it is today), that this fabulous lie was told.

<still awaiting reply from censors>


"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to
rule it."
-- H. L. Mencken --

"Never was so much false arithmetic employed on any subject, as that which
has been employed to persuade nations that it is in their interest to go to
war."
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1782 --

Em Sex, 2003-03-21 às 00:15, Lucius Equitius escreveu:

> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
>
> "Neither Minerva nor Mars, they´re too noble to bless such war!"
> This remark of Lucius Arminius Faustus betrays a personal opinion rather
> than an objective one.
>
> Actually Mars, in various aspects, is very appropriate. Minerva as well
> since it is wise to learn from the past, and we all hope that the Iraqis
> will
> see the wisdom of surrendering Saddam.
>
> I've made offerings to Mars to protect us all in these troubled times,
> terrorist not
> caring who may be present when they attack (men, women and children from
> very many nations being present in the World Trade Towers, a tourist
> attraction as well as a business center).
>
> The following is my opinion should anyone give a fig...
>
> First of all, Iraq signed a cease fire in which they agreed to certain
> conditions. One of these was to disarm themselves of all weapons of
> Chemical, Biological and Nuclear components. They failed to do this even
> though they were given 12 YEARS! and 17 United Nations resolutions, thus
> Iraq is in breach of the cease fire and therefore the "Gulf War" is still
> ongoing.

Where are those weapons, the UN inspectors did find none, but found the
remainders of those the Iraqis destroyed without effective control.

> Anybody else remember that they did invade Kuwait where they raped,
> pillaged and plundered?

They did, lost a war against a wide coalition which included the
countries that are against the actual war, and were punished with a 12
year old embargo, forced to destroy their own weapons etc.

> We should have done this when they kicked out the UN inspectors in 98'!!
> Romans don't look kindly on treaty breakers!
>
> Also, We have already seen that the liar Saddam has set Iraq oil ablaze, in
> direct contradiction to his assertion to Mr. Rather that he would 'never do
> such a thing.' Too, they've used missiles that they declared they didn't
> have.
>
>
> The days of President Carter standing by, doing nothing, while American
> citizens suffer insult and injury are over. We have a leader now who says
> what he means and means what he says. We're going after terrorist and those
> who harbor and support them. Saddam clearly supports terrorist, his 'reward'
> of cash for suicide bombers being the most obvious example.
>
> For the neigh sayers who are concerned that we will "enflame" the Arab
> world, those who hate us have already decided to hate us. Just as those who
> have hated Bush have decided that no matter what he does is wrong. Witness
> Sen. Daschle support of Clinton in Bosnia yet he condemns Bush for the same
> action now, hypocrite!
>
> Is it an accident that those countries who most oppose the actions of the
> United States
> don't seem to have suffered many 'terrorist attacks'?
>

You must be kidding, France, Germany and Russia suffered much more
terrorist attacks than the USA. Some years ago it was nearly an
attack/month. Did you forget about Action Directe, ETA, Armenians,
Algerian extremist (GSA?), Kurds, RAF, Tchetchens etc. etc.

It is exactly because they know very well terrorism and the most
apropriate ways to fight it, that they are against a war which targets a
country which has absolutely nothing to do Al Qaeda (besides being a
probable target of it).

Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist islamic terrorist organization which wants
to impose the Charia to all countries. Bin Laden is Saudi Arabian, most
members of Al Qaeda are Saudi Arabians, the money of Al Qaeda comes from
Saudi Arabia etc.

Iraq is a laic dictature which accepts all religions. For ex. Tarek Aziz
is christian and is one of the confidents of Saddam Hussein. Women have
the same rights as the men (little rights because it is a dictature).
Women are free to walk bare head in the streets. You can drink a beer in
the streets without being immediately incarcerated like in Saudi Arabia
for instance. A clear target for all fundamentalists.

> For those who say that the United States will suffer from the "international
> community", I say we've found out who are friends are and who we can no
> longer trust. Actions speak louder than words, eh Chirac?
>

The world really found out that the USA cannot be trusted and that they
definitively don't deserve the title of champions of the right.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:22:46 -0000
> From: "Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@...>
> Subject: Re: It's Started!
>
> Neither Minerva nor Mars, they´re too noble to bless such war! This
> war is made by the rule of Ate and Hybris...
>
> But Temis must be satisfied, and I fear when Goddess Nêmesis and the
> three Furies strike back (once more punishing)... bringing Fobos and
> Deimos at hand...
>
> L. Arminius
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
> <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > And if we can't have peace, let us make war under Minerva, not
> > Mars...
> >
> > --- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@p...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Iulilla.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "julilla" <curatrix@v...> wrote:
> Julilla Sempronia Magna omnibus SPD
>
> I may have mentioned to some amicii that I have done three
> classroom presentation to 10-12 year-old students who are studying
> ancient Rome andf preparing a major district-wide presentation
> which I will attend next Monday night. I dressed in my stola, palla
> and carbatina (a style of footwear) and brought many reproduction
> items (strigil, pressed glass cups, jewellery, Nova Roma vexillum
> and coins and my lararium. The students were deeply interested, and
> I allowed them plenty of time to ask questions. All in all, a most
> satisfying way to promote interest in Roman culture!

<<snipped>>

> I cannot tell you how gratifying it is to -- even in a small way --
> catch the imaginations of young people and make them excited about
> history. If we are to continue to flourish in the next generation,
> I heartily recommend sharing your time and talents with the young
> people in your community. Believe me, you will likely get as much
> out of the experience as they!

What an encouraging idea! I congratulate you, amica.
I wish that we all here in Nova Roma followed your example.

I will try to do the same here in Madrid. Let's see if I can find a
school teacher willing to allow me to do a similar thing (I will have
to spare some money for a toga, though :-) ).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
>
> Where are those weapons, the UN inspectors did find none, but found
the
> remainders of those the Iraqis destroyed without effective control.

Well, some of those weapons that Saddam claimed he didn't have (Scud
missles) are magically appearing over the skys of Kuwait. Even Hans
Blix has said to look in the basements of Baghdad and other places
that Saddam's regime always managed to keep inspectors away from.

> They did, lost a war against a wide coalition which included the
> countries that are against the actual war, and were punished with a
> 12 year old embargo, forced to destroy their own weapons etc.

When Saddam agreed to the Cease-fire one of those banned weapons that
his regime claims were destroyed are the Scuds being launched against
Kuwait. Finally, real proof that Saddam was not really disarming and
meeting his obligations under the cease-fire agreement, but merely
playing a car and mouse game with the inspectors Thusly Saddam has
been in violation of the cease-fire agreement just as the US has
continued to claim for the past 12 years. A cease-fire agreement is
not a peace treaty. Violate the cease-fire then fire resumes.

> The world really found out that the USA cannot be trusted and that
> they definitively don't deserve the title of champions of the right.

On the contrary. The Bush administration said, this is what we are
going to do, and this is why we are doing it. So far the Scuds being
launched confirms that Bush assertion that Saddam was/is in violation
of the cease-fire agreement and the US and the "coalition of the
willing" seems to be doing exactly what they said they are going to
do about it. As for the world opinion of the US, I'm not overly
worried. Those that hate the US would hate the US no matter what the
US did or didn't do. If you're in a damned if you do damned if you
don't situation, might as well do what you damn well want. The
nations that today are condemming the US will be trying to cozy up
when they need a favor tommorow.

Calvus

Salve,

Just a reminder that Nova Roma is incorporated in the State of Maine
which is part of the United States. Before posting about how
horrible America is, Nova Romans should also realize that no matter
what macro-nation they live in they are members of an American
corporation and in some cases members of its Board of Directors and
hold high offices within that organization. If one hates America
then I must honestly ask, why be a member of an American corporation?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

> and in some cases members of its Board of Directors and
> hold high offices within that organization.

Not all American members of that Board consider the current policies
of the US government to be acceptable.

> If one hates America then I must honestly ask, why be a
> member of an American corporation?

One may hate the Bush regime without hating America.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/

Salvete Quinte Calve omnesque

> If one hates America then I must honestly ask, why be a
> member of an American corporation?

While Nova Roma is incorporated in the USA, it is not a corporation
dedicated to Americanism or promoting the United States. It would,
therefore, be quite possible to hate the US--though I haven't seen much
evidence of such hate on the part of any Nova Roman civis--yet be a
member of Nova Roma out of a love of Romanitas.

Note that even harsh criticism of US policies and the various wrongs
that the US has committed over the course of its history--even if those
wrongs are only controversially so--does not necessarily equate to a
hatred of the US or its citizens.

It was for these reasons, among others, that my collega and I declared
Nova Roma to be neutral with regard to the current war. Despite its
being incorporated in the USA, Nova Roma does not take any position on
the subject and remains open equally to those who disagree and those who
support the war.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

Salvete,

If I may?

I love my home country, the United States of America. I wore the uniform of her armed services for
a total of 13 !/2 years.

In some branches of my family I have fourteen generations buried in her soil (my earliest European
ancestors came here in the 1640's).

I ask that no one else love her, save my fellow citizens. One can, very well, seek to correct that
which one thinks is wrong in what one loves.

As to non citizens of the USA, my best wishes for your individual opinions as outsiders to our
macronation.

Not all who criticize my home country are her enemies.

Not all who profess agreement are her friends.

All the macronations of our Cives have done deeds in which they can take pride.

All the macronations of our Cives have done deeds in which they can take shame.

Such is the life of nations.

But, we here in Nova Roma are different from our fellow macro-citizens...

We are seeking to BUILD a Republic based on that which is best in Roma Antiqua, with a spice
composed of that which is best in our current era.

Onward to the Work, is my admonition.

And...

Please remember...

Americans are you...

>From every nation...

We are your children...

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Civis Nova Romana et Paterfamilias

Do that which is right for family and community,
with wisdom, generosity and personal honor,
being mindful of kinlore, truth and freedom.

Salvete Quirites,

I Make no secrect of the fact that I support the
removal of the present regime in Iraq, but in my case
this isn't a matter of blindly supporting the policies
of the United States Government. Over 18 years ago I
was sent to the Persian Gulf for the first time as
part a mission that included gathering information on
the war that was being fought between Iran and Iraq.
At that time the United States was far more hostile to
the Iranian government than to the Iraqi government.
After seeing how the Iraqi Ba'athist regime fought
that war, and how it maintained order within the
nation I became a proponant of the removal of that
regime by any means nessacary. As a general rule I'm
not a proponant of the United States involving herself
in overseas adventures execpt under extraordinay
circumstances. In my case it's a matter of the United
States government finally agreeing to a postion that I
have held for over 18 years, that the people of Iraq
should be liberated from a regime that I consider
totally abhorant. That is a personal viewpoint, that
has no effect on my views of Nova Roma.

Nova Roma's Legal status as an "American Corparation"
is no more than a technial detail. I Do not consider
it an "American Corparation" but an international
organization that happens to be incorparated in the
United States. If that technial detail becomes a
danger to Nova Roma goals, then I will do my duty as a
Senator of this Micronation, and as a member of it's
Board of Directors and consider reincorparating
outside the United States.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Senator

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Just a reminder that Nova Roma is incorporated in
> the State of Maine
> which is part of the United States. Before posting
> about how
> horrible America is, Nova Romans should also realize
> that no matter
> what macro-nation they live in they are members of
> an American
> corporation and in some cases members of its Board
> of Directors and
> hold high offices within that organization. If one
> hates America
> then I must honestly ask, why be a member of an
> American corporation?
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

>>

Salvete omnes,

Well said, Senator!

Gnaeus Marius Asiaticus
Cives Roma

>>
>

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I Make no secrect of the fact that I support the
> removal of the present regime in Iraq, but in my
> case this isn't a matter of blindly supporting the
> policies
> of the United States Government. Over 18 years ago I
> was sent to the Persian Gulf for the first time as
> part a mission that included gathering information

on

> the war that was being fought between Iran and Iraq.
> At that time the United States was far more hostile

to

> the Iranian government than to the Iraqi government.
> After seeing how the Iraqi Ba'athist regime fought
> that war, and how it maintained order within the
> nation I became a proponant of the removal of that
> regime by any means nessacary. As a general rule I'm
> not a proponant of the United States involving

herself

> in overseas adventures execpt under extraordinay
> circumstances. In my case it's a matter of the
> United
> States government finally agreeing to a postion that
> I have held for over 18 years, that the people of

Iraq

> should be liberated from a regime that I consider
> totally abhorant. That is a personal viewpoint, that
> has no effect on my views of Nova Roma.
>
> Nova Roma's Legal status as an "American

Corparation"

> is no more than a technial detail. I Do not consider
> it an "American Corparation" but an international
> organization that happens to be incorparated in the
> United States. If that technial detail becomes a
> danger to Nova Roma goals, then I will do my duty as
> a Senator of this Micronation, and as a member of

it's

> Board of Directors and consider reincorparating
> outside the United States.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
> Senator
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Just a reminder that Nova Roma is incorporated in
> > the State of Maine
> > which is part of the United States. Before posting
> > about how
> > horrible America is, Nova Romans should also

realize

> > that no matter
> > what macro-nation they live in they are members of
> > an American
> > corporation and in some cases members of its Board
> > of Directors and
> > hold high offices within that organization. If one
> > hates America
> > then I must honestly ask, why be a member of an
> > American corporation?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Q. Cassius Calvus
> >
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Pipar - Steven
<catamount_grange@i...> wrote:

> In some branches of my family I have fourteen generations buried in

her soil (my earliest European

> ancestors came here in the 1640's).
>

On my father's side of the family his mother's ancestors were already
here when the Europeans arrived.

> But, we here in Nova Roma are different from our fellow macro-

citizens...

>
> We are seeking to BUILD a Republic based on that which is best in

Roma Antiqua, with a spice

> composed of that which is best in our current era.
>
> Onward to the Work, is my admonition.

Thank you, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, you're one of the few that
got what I was saying.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Fortunatus <labienus@n...> wrote:

> Salvete Quinte Calve omnesque
>
> > If one hates America then I must honestly ask, why be a
> > member of an American corporation?
>
> While Nova Roma is incorporated in the USA, it is not a corporation
> dedicated to Americanism or promoting the United States. It would,
> therefore, be quite possible to hate the US--though I haven't seen

much

> evidence of such hate on the part of any Nova Roman civis--yet be a
> member of Nova Roma out of a love of Romanitas.

Salve honored Consul,

My exact point, honored Consul. Nova Roma's purpose is to neither
promote Americanism nor to promote anti-Americanism it is to promote
Romanitas. If ones agenda is to promote anti-Americanism (there is a
difference between dissent and anti-Americanism) then it is at least
in my opinion hypocritical to do so through an organization chartered
in America.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Em Sex, 2003-03-21 às 23:44, L. Sicinius Drusus escreveu:

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I Make no secrect of the fact that I support the
> removal of the present regime in Iraq, but in my case
> this isn't a matter of blindly supporting the policies
> of the United States Government. Over 18 years ago I
> was sent to the Persian Gulf for the first time as
> part a mission that included gathering information on
> the war that was being fought between Iran and Iraq.
> At that time the United States was far more hostile to
> the Iranian government than to the Iraqi government.
> After seeing how the Iraqi Ba'athist regime fought
> that war, and how it maintained order within the
> nation I became a proponant of the removal of that
> regime by any means nessacary. As a general rule I'm
> not a proponant of the United States involving herself
> in overseas adventures execpt under extraordinay
> circumstances. In my case it's a matter of the United
> States government finally agreeing to a postion that I
> have held for over 18 years, that the people of Iraq
> should be liberated from a regime that I consider
> totally abhorant. That is a personal viewpoint, that
> has no effect on my views of Nova Roma.
>
> Nova Roma's Legal status as an "American Corparation"
> is no more than a technial detail. I Do not consider
> it an "American Corparation" but an international
> organization that happens to be incorparated in the
> United States. If that technial detail becomes a
> danger to Nova Roma goals, then I will do my duty as a
> Senator of this Micronation, and as a member of it's
> Board of Directors and consider reincorparating
> outside the United States.
>

Well said, Senator, all of it.

Manius Villius Limitanus

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Salve Quintus Fabius,
Salvete citizens,

> Moravia said

< "And if we can't have peace, let us make war under Minerva, not Mars..."

Actually dear, I didn't say that (and I don't remember who did). I posted
the silly Make Love Not War and the Cupid's arrow emails....

As some people have accurately remarked to me, I am rather shallow in my
discussions and follow my heart and feelings with very little input from my
brain. My only argument against war is because it breaks my heart to see the
world so full of hate. This wouldn't take me far in a discussion....

I just pray - seemingly in vain- that one day the human race will all take
hands, put aside their differences and work together for a better world for
all of Earth's inhabitants.

That said, I respect all of my fellow Nova Roma colleagues and citizens, no
matter what their opinion is on this war. And if any of our citizens are
called to fight, I hope that they come back safe and sound.

Valete,
Diana Moravia

Bounce test sorry

Salve,
Solidly with you here, Diana
Vale bene,
Helena Galeria

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:

> Salve Quintus Fabius,
> Salvete citizens,
>
> > Moravia said
> < "And if we can't have peace, let us make war under Minerva, not

Mars..."

>
> Actually dear, I didn't say that (and I don't remember who did). I

posted

> the silly Make Love Not War and the Cupid's arrow emails....
>
> As some people have accurately remarked to me, I am rather shallow

in my

> discussions and follow my heart and feelings with very little input

from my

> brain. My only argument against war is because it breaks my heart

to see the

> world so full of hate. This wouldn't take me far in a

discussion....

>
> I just pray - seemingly in vain- that one day the human race will

all take

> hands, put aside their differences and work together for a better

world for

> all of Earth's inhabitants.
>
> That said, I respect all of my fellow Nova Roma colleagues and

citizens, no

> matter what their opinion is on this war. And if any of our

citizens are

> called to fight, I hope that they come back safe and sound.
>
> Valete,
> Diana Moravia

--- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@...> wrote:

> > Moravia said
> < "And if we can't have peace, let us make war under Minerva, not
> Mars..."
>
> Actually dear, I didn't say that (and I don't remember who did). I
> posted the silly Make Love Not War and the Cupid's arrow emails....

Please do not blame Moravia for my post...

Vestinia Caprenia

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

Salvete;

Really, what happened during the weeks that followed September 11 is now happening again here. Despite valiant efforts of some to bring this list back on-topic and link the war theme to ancient Rome, I really wonder why some people aren't taking this debate elsewhere. Where is moderation when you need it, or am I missing something here?

Valete,
M. Octavius Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave M. Octavius,

I believe that the moderation is there. The conversations on the list have not been THAT bad. But if it is not up to your standard of moderation or censorship why don't you try to start a new conversation or find a way to link the current debate back to ancient Rome?

Respectfully,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Salvete;

Really, what happened during the weeks that followed September 11 is now happening again here. Despite valiant efforts of some to bring this list back on-topic and link the war theme to ancient Rome, I really wonder why some people aren't taking this debate elsewhere. Where is moderation when you need it, or am I missing something here?

Valete,
M. Octavius Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Sulla,

Agreed. All in all things have remained civil. But still, coming home yesterday night and seeing your hotmail box overloaded with messages about the war (as if I hadn't noticed already a war was going on ;)) is kind of confronting and feels like spam, especially when my inbox is completely full.

As for a link back to ancient Rome, well, I could think of a few rather interesting, related issues but I'm afraid that the debate might take a few nasty turns again and would ultimately bring us back to the former topic. Additionally, I did state that some have made efforts to get things back on track!

Vale bene!
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave,

Then as others have said before, use the delete button. If you dont want to read it..no one forces you too. Just delete the email. Or block the sender. Or go digest. Or go no mail. There is no reason to call for increased censorship.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Salve Sulla,

Agreed. All in all things have remained civil. But still, coming home yesterday night and seeing your hotmail box overloaded with messages about the war (as if I hadn't noticed already a war was going on ;)) is kind of confronting and feels like spam, especially when my inbox is completely full.

As for a link back to ancient Rome, well, I could think of a few rather interesting, related issues but I'm afraid that the debate might take a few nasty turns again and would ultimately bring us back to the former topic. Additionally, I did state that some have made efforts to get things back on track!

Vale bene!
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Saturday, March 22, 2003, at 01:31 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> While Nova Roma is incorporated in the USA, it is not a corporation
> dedicated to Americanism or promoting the United States.

Indeed, and one of the more admirable (though often neglected)
traditions of the United States is that of freedom of speech. There are
in fact many groups chartered in the U.S. for the express purpose of
criticizing its government's actions and policies. So I see no
hypocrisy in Nova Romans doing so -- though I do see an abuse of a
forum meant for Roman subjects, as others have pointed out.

From Roman history we can read of times of terror and proscriptions,
when any idiot could get you killed by starting a rumor that you said
or thought something. Let me ask a question of our historians: Was
there a time when freedom of speech, specifically the freedom to
criticize the government, was granted widely to the Roman people? What
was the result?


-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@...

Salve L. Cornelius Sulla

I don't think M. Octavius Solaris proposes censorship. He simply wishes, as do I (correct me here, if I'm wrong Marcus), that people would exercise some discretion when posting to the group list. A debate is fine if it can enlighten either side on a particular issue. But the issue of the current war with Iraq is a polarizing one. People have hunkered down and dug in on this issue. Given the last week's mail, about a dozen citizens seem to have strong views one way or another. And its clear that neither side is about to budge. One side is obviously pro-Bush and favors the conflict, the other side is just as obviously disenchanted with Bush and unconvinced that war is necessary. There have already been some ugly insinuations that anyone not firmly in favor of the war is un-American/unpatriotic, etc.

Some citizens have already noted that posting a message to the general list to state one's position is not the problem. It's the response to responses to responses that are generating most of the irritating material and, since as I noted above, no amount of explanation or invective is going to modify the entrenched positions of those for and against the war, maybe the solution is to stop generating such threads, as they just pour gasoline on the fire without accomplishing anything.

Vale

L. Suetonius Nerva

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Ave,

Then as others have said before, use the delete button. If you dont want to read it..no one forces you too. Just delete the email. Or block the sender. Or go digest. Or go no mail. There is no reason to call for increased censorship.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Salve Sulla,

Agreed. All in all things have remained civil. But still, coming home yesterday night and seeing your hotmail box overloaded with messages about the war (as if I hadn't noticed already a war was going on ;)) is kind of confronting and feels like spam, especially when my inbox is completely full.

As for a link back to ancient Rome, well, I could think of a few rather interesting, related issues but I'm afraid that the debate might take a few nasty turns again and would ultimately bring us back to the former topic. Additionally, I did state that some have made efforts to get things back on track!

Vale bene!
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave,

If that was all he called for then I do not have a problem with it. However his post stated, where is the moderation when you need it. That is calling for the Praetors, who are constitutionally empowered to act in that jurisdiction to act. Which would be tantamount to saying that discussion is no longer allowed. Which would be censorship. Something that is a very drastic view in light that M. Octavius, and you could simply delete the email that you do not want to read. Block the Sender of the emails, if you feel you must. Or you can go on digest form, if you do not want the spam you can go no mail. There is no need for censorship, when those other options are available to you.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: John Walzer
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Salve L. Cornelius Sulla

I don't think M. Octavius Solaris proposes censorship. He simply wishes, as do I (correct me here, if I'm wrong Marcus), that people would exercise some discretion when posting to the group list. A debate is fine if it can enlighten either side on a particular issue. But the issue of the current war with Iraq is a polarizing one. People have hunkered down and dug in on this issue. Given the last week's mail, about a dozen citizens seem to have strong views one way or another. And its clear that neither side is about to budge. One side is obviously pro-Bush and favors the conflict, the other side is just as obviously disenchanted with Bush and unconvinced that war is necessary. There have already been some ugly insinuations that anyone not firmly in favor of the war is un-American/unpatriotic, etc.

Some citizens have already noted that posting a message to the general list to state one's position is not the problem. It's the response to responses to responses that are generating most of the irritating material and, since as I noted above, no amount of explanation or invective is going to modify the entrenched positions of those for and against the war, maybe the solution is to stop generating such threads, as they just pour gasoline on the fire without accomplishing anything.

Vale

L. Suetonius Nerva


----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Ave,

Then as others have said before, use the delete button. If you dont want to read it..no one forces you too. Just delete the email. Or block the sender. Or go digest. Or go no mail. There is no reason to call for increased censorship.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Salve Sulla,

Agreed. All in all things have remained civil. But still, coming home yesterday night and seeing your hotmail box overloaded with messages about the war (as if I hadn't noticed already a war was going on ;)) is kind of confronting and feels like spam, especially when my inbox is completely full.

As for a link back to ancient Rome, well, I could think of a few rather interesting, related issues but I'm afraid that the debate might take a few nasty turns again and would ultimately bring us back to the former topic. Additionally, I did state that some have made efforts to get things back on track!

Vale bene!
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:

> Ave,
>
> Then as others have said before, use the delete button. If you

dont want to read it..no one forces you too. Just delete the email.
Or block the sender. Or go digest. Or go no mail. There is no
reason to call for increased censorship.

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> [

Salvete Lucius, Solaris et omnes,

I think one could see that the Roman Empire with respect to
catastrophies could be well linked to events of our modern era. One
event that shook the Empire in the reign of Augustus (9 AD)that hit
as hard as Sept. 11 did in our era was the Battle of the Teutoburg
Wald.

Apparently Quintilius Veras, perfumed haired dandy sort of guy with a
law background and after screwing up his postings in the middle East
got posted to Germany. A barbarian leader and ex Roman
officer,Arminius who knew Roman tactics lured Veras and 3 legions
into the forest and annihilated them all. The few survivors were
burned alive in wicker baskets. Augustus never recovered from that
and was rumored to have wandered the halls saying " Quintilius Veras!
Give me back my legions!"

The Empire thus recieved a terrible blow to its expansion policy in
that region! There is tons of information on that subject if you just
look up Quintilius Veras on the internet.

Salvete,

On Sat, Mar 22, 2003 at 08:09:59PM +0100, M. Octavius Solaris wrote:
> Salvete;
>
> Really, what happened during the weeks that followed September 11 is
> now happening again here.

And will continue to happen as long as human beings react to important
events and the Main List is a forum rather than a jail.

> Despite valiant efforts of some to bring
> this list back on-topic and link the war theme to ancient Rome, I
> really wonder why some people aren't taking this debate elsewhere.
> Where is moderation when you need it, or am I missing something here?

You are. Read the moderation guidelines carefully, and you will not miss
it any longer. Until then, there's the `delete' key and by-subject
killfiling on most email clients. There's also the option of *starting*
a non-war thread that will be so exciting as to draw everyone's
attention; I'll be looking forward to your opening, erm, salvo.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dictum, factum.
Said and done.
-- Terence, "Heautontimorumenos"

Salvete, L. Suetonius Nerva -

On Sat, Mar 22, 2003 at 02:53:42PM -0500, John Walzer wrote:
> Salve L. Cornelius Sulla
>
> I don't think M. Octavius Solaris proposes censorship.

He has called for it explicitly.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate.
"Plurality should not be posited without necessity." - Principle known
as Occam's Razor

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 16:58, Quintus Lanius Paulinus escreveu:

> Salvete Lucius, Solaris et omnes,
>
> I think one could see that the Roman Empire with respect to
> catastrophies could be well linked to events of our modern era. One
> event that shook the Empire in the reign of Augustus (9 AD)that hit
> as hard as Sept. 11 did in our era was the Battle of the Teutoburg
> Wald.
>
> Apparently Quintilius Veras, perfumed haired dandy sort of guy with a
> law background and after screwing up his postings in the middle East
> got posted to Germany. A barbarian leader and ex Roman
> officer,Arminius who knew Roman tactics lured Veras and 3 legions
> into the forest and annihilated them all. The few survivors were
> burned alive in wicker baskets. Augustus never recovered from that
> and was rumored to have wandered the halls saying " Quintilius Veras!
> Give me back my legions!"
>
> The Empire thus recieved a terrible blow to its expansion policy in
> that region! There is tons of information on that subject if you just
> look up Quintilius Veras on the internet.

Its is quite interessant, but I don't think that it bears any
resemblance with what is going on today.

What we see today is much closer to Caesar's Ponthian campaign.
You know: Veni,Vidi,Vici.

At that point the Republic was very close to the Empire, just another
World War away.

Manius Villius Limitanus



--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

On Sat, Mar 22, 2003 at 07:58:17PM -0000, Quintus Lanius Paulinus wrote:

>
> Salvete Lucius, Solaris et omnes,
>
> I think one could see that the Roman Empire with respect to
> catastrophies could be well linked to events of our modern era. One
> event that shook the Empire in the reign of Augustus (9 AD)that hit
> as hard as Sept. 11 did in our era was the Battle of the Teutoburg
> Wald.
>
> Apparently Quintilius Veras, perfumed haired dandy sort of guy with a
> law background and after screwing up his postings in the middle East
> got posted to Germany. A barbarian leader and ex Roman
> officer,Arminius who knew Roman tactics lured Veras and 3 legions
> into the forest and annihilated them all. The few survivors were
> burned alive in wicker baskets. Augustus never recovered from that
> and was rumored to have wandered the halls saying " Quintilius Veras!
> Give me back my legions!"
>
> The Empire thus recieved a terrible blow to its expansion policy in
> that region! There is tons of information on that subject if you just
> look up Quintilius Veras on the internet.

Salve -

"Quintilius Veras" produces no matches on Google. I believe you'd be
better off searching for "quintilius OR quintillius varus" (1450 hits.)


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Vare, legiones redde!
Varus, give me back my legions!
-- Augustus, upon hearing that governor Quintilius Varus and three
legions had been killed in an ambush in the Teutoburger Forest.

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 16:53, Patricia Cassia escreveu:

> On Saturday, March 22, 2003, at 01:31 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> wrote:
>
> > While Nova Roma is incorporated in the USA, it is not a corporation
> > dedicated to Americanism or promoting the United States.
>
> Indeed, and one of the more admirable (though often neglected)
> traditions of the United States is that of freedom of speech. There are
> in fact many groups chartered in the U.S. for the express purpose of
> criticizing its government's actions and policies. So I see no
> hypocrisy in Nova Romans doing so -- though I do see an abuse of a
> forum meant for Roman subjects, as others have pointed out.
>
> From Roman history we can read of times of terror and proscriptions,
> when any idiot could get you killed by starting a rumor that you said
> or thought something. Let me ask a question of our historians: Was
> there a time when freedom of speech, specifically the freedom to
> criticize the government, was granted widely to the Roman people? What
> was the result?

All along the Republic, before the troubled times of the 1st century AD.
What you are describing only happened under the various "tyrannies"
(prolongued Dictatorships) in the 1st century AD and after that under
the monarchy of the Empire.

Manius Villius Limitanus

>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

In a message dated 3/22/03 11:53:16 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pcassia@... writes:

> Was
> there a time when freedom of speech, specifically the freedom to
> criticize the government, was granted widely to the Roman people? What
> was the result?
>

No, there were times in Early Roman Republic you could, but even that was
limited. Romans believed that negative thoughts were conducive to bad things
happening. The Senate would often pass SCs forbidding freedoms to maintain
morale in the dark days of the middle
After Marius and Sulla, speaking out was asking for proscription.
We maintain free speech in our forum because it is a right granted by our NR
constitution.
Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Its is quite interessant, but I don't think that it bears any
> resemblance with what is going on today.
>
> What we see today is much closer to Caesar's Ponthian campaign.
> You know: Veni,Vidi,Vici.
>
> At that point the Republic was very close to the Empire, just

another

> World War away.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>
>
> --
> Michel Loos <loos@q...>

Salve Mani Villi,

Your point is well taken but I was thinking in terms of comparing
the "shock value" of Teutoburg to the people of Rome at that time and
the "shock" compared to that of the USA on Sept. 11. Both
institutions were comfortable in their situations but they recieved
an ugly lesson of just how vunerable they could be.

Just a little humor here. I like the quote Veni Vidi Vici. In my
province, Alberta we are only required to have 1 licence plate on our
car. We can put any other decorative plate in front so long as it is
not obscene. I am thinking of making my front licence plate saying "
Vidi, vici, veni!

Regards - Quintus P.

>
> No, there were times in Early Roman Republic you could, but even

that was

> limited. Romans believed that negative thoughts were conducive to

bad things

> happening. The Senate would often pass SCs forbidding freedoms to

maintain

> morale in the dark days of the middle
> After Marius and Sulla, speaking out was asking for proscription.
> We maintain free speech in our forum because it is a right granted

by our NR

> constitution.
> Fabius Maximus
>
>
> Salvete omnes,

Don't forget one of the greatest Roman orators, Cicero got his hands
and head chopped off for mean mouthing Marc Antony. Don't forget
Augustus exiled the poet Ovid to the Romania area for writing and
publishing raunchy hot poetry after Augustus had wanted Romans to
clean up their morality.

Quintus Paulinus

Sp. Postumius Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

As it is my duty to the Praetores to assist in the moderation of this list, I feel that this is one time when I need to speak, ex officio.

Marcus Octavius Solaris stated:

"Really, what happened during the weeks that followed September 11 is now happening again here. Despite valiant efforts of some to bring this list back on-topic and link the war theme to ancient Rome, I really wonder why some people aren't taking this debate elsewhere. Where is moderation when you need it, or am I missing something here?"

Though I can understand his frustration with what seems to be the main topic of discussion in this Forum, as others have done before, I must point back to the Praetorian Edict which explicitely sets out the guidelines for this Forum.

Paragraph IX, Edictum Praetoricium, 30 January 2756 (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2003-01-30.html).

"The main focus of this list is Nova Roma and Roma Antiqua. However, as members of a diverse international community we all have lives and interests outside of Nova Roma. It is perfectly acceptable to discuss non-Roman topics here, though keep in mind that not everyone may share your interest in these topics."

Therefore, it has been deemed acceptable to discuss topics which are not of Roman interest. What Marcus Octavius mentions falls into this. So it is now acceptable for this to occur. However, I would like to make it explicit what is in the last sentence.

Citizens, please keep in mind that not all citizens may share in your interest in whatever topics you bring into this forum. If it is something that can easily be taken elsewhere, please do so. I think all that use this forum are mature enough to have the discretion to know what should and should not be brought into the forum. For my part, I can only say that it is not my decision to tell you what you should and should not talk about.

All that said, my best suggestion to anyone who feels that something brought into this forum is explicitely inappropriate for discussion here may mail either the Praetores at praetors@... or to the moderators at nova-roma-owner@yahoogroups.com or, if you wish, for some reason, I am available at postumius@....

Valete,

Spurius Postumius Tubertus, Praetorian Scribe

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 17:41, Quintus Lanius Paulinus escreveu:

> >
> > No, there were times in Early Roman Republic you could, but even
> that was
> > limited. Romans believed that negative thoughts were conducive to
> bad things
> > happening. The Senate would often pass SCs forbidding freedoms to
> maintain
> > morale in the dark days of the middle
> > After Marius and Sulla, speaking out was asking for proscription.
> > We maintain free speech in our forum because it is a right granted
> by our NR
> > constitution.
> > Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
>
> Don't forget one of the greatest Roman orators, Cicero got his hands
> and head chopped off for mean mouthing Marc Antony. Don't forget
> Augustus exiled the poet Ovid to the Romania area for writing and
> publishing raunchy hot poetry after Augustus had wanted Romans to
> clean up their morality.

That's all 1st century AD.

Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle republic: Before the
murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was tolerated, if not they
would never have been elected.
Cato the elder was quite disturbing with Carthado delenda est and was
free to speak even in a time of strong comercial colaboration with
Carthage. etc.

Manius Villius Limitanus

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

M. Villius, I dont know about you, but when I have read Livy I recall a number of examples when freedom of speech was not allowed. Just off the top of my head was the crack down on the Bacchanlian cult and the burning of those books and followers of that sect were persecuted. And this was during Cato the Censor's time (about 180 bce).

I think you might want to go back and read Livy.

The reason I remember this example off hand was that I asked about it before on the ML.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Loos
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome


Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 17:41, Quintus Lanius Paulinus escreveu:
> >
> > No, there were times in Early Roman Republic you could, but even
> that was
> > limited. Romans believed that negative thoughts were conducive to
> bad things
> > happening. The Senate would often pass SCs forbidding freedoms to
> maintain
> > morale in the dark days of the middle
> > After Marius and Sulla, speaking out was asking for proscription.
> > We maintain free speech in our forum because it is a right granted
> by our NR
> > constitution.
> > Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
>
> Don't forget one of the greatest Roman orators, Cicero got his hands
> and head chopped off for mean mouthing Marc Antony. Don't forget
> Augustus exiled the poet Ovid to the Romania area for writing and
> publishing raunchy hot poetry after Augustus had wanted Romans to
> clean up their morality.

That's all 1st century AD.

Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle republic: Before the
murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was tolerated, if not they
would never have been elected.
Cato the elder was quite disturbing with Carthado delenda est and was
free to speak even in a time of strong comercial colaboration with
Carthage. etc.

Manius Villius Limitanus

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Luci Corneli et Cai Minuci,

Yes, I called for a form of censorship because I believe this topic is so way off-topic that it becomes a hindrance. Apperently the list rules don't allow it so I'll abide by that. So yes I did miss something here. About the use of the delete button. Well, my friends, I can't delete mail when I'm not there. Besides, my hotmail account is synchronised through Outlook so deleting of messages can take some time, more than you'd think.

I've said before why I'm not linking this debate to a related, possibly more Roman topic. Secondly I usually don't have enough time to make the creative effort to think of new topics. Honestly, I don't. I'm very pleased if I find enough time to read some messages and reply to something I find interesting or worthwhile commenting on.

Valete bene,
M. Octavius Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Impression is there was a degree of "Freedom of
Speech" prior to the time of Marius and Sulla, but it
existed in a negative sense rather than being
considered a right. The Senate could and did ban
speech on certain topics from time to time. You could
still speak out on other topics, not as a "right" but
simply because the Senate didn't bother to ban them.
Any "Freedom of Speech" that existed was more because
of a lax attitude among the Senate when the State
wasn't in danger than anything else.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@...>
wrote:

> M. Villius, I dont know about you, but when I have
> read Livy I recall a number of examples when freedom
> of speech was not allowed. Just off the top of my
> head was the crack down on the Bacchanlian cult and
> the burning of those books and followers of that
> sect were persecuted. And this was during Cato the
> Censor's time (about 180 bce).
>
> I think you might want to go back and read Livy.
>
> The reason I remember this example off hand was that
> I asked about it before on the ML.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michel Loos
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in
> ancient Rome
>
>
> Em S�b, 2003-03-22 �s 17:41, Quintus Lanius
> Paulinus escreveu:
> > >
> > > No, there were times in Early Roman Republic
> you could, but even
> > that was
> > > limited. Romans believed that negative
> thoughts were conducive to
> > bad things
> > > happening. The Senate would often pass SCs
> forbidding freedoms to
> > maintain
> > > morale in the dark days of the middle
> > > After Marius and Sulla, speaking out was
> asking for proscription.
> > > We maintain free speech in our forum because
> it is a right granted
> > by our NR
> > > constitution.
> > > Fabius Maximus
> > >
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Don't forget one of the greatest Roman orators,
> Cicero got his hands
> > and head chopped off for mean mouthing Marc
> Antony. Don't forget
> > Augustus exiled the poet Ovid to the Romania
> area for writing and
> > publishing raunchy hot poetry after Augustus had
> wanted Romans to
> > clean up their morality.
>
> That's all 1st century AD.
>
> Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle
> republic: Before the
> murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was
> tolerated, if not they
> would never have been elected.
> Cato the elder was quite disturbing with Carthado
> delenda est and was
> free to speak even in a time of strong comercial
> colaboration with
> Carthage. etc.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> --
> Michel Loos <loos@...>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

Salve Senator Corneli,

> However his post stated, where is the moderation when you need it.
> That is calling for the Praetors,

Perhaps; but "moderation" can also mean self-restraint, rather than
restraint imposed from without, and in that sense Solaris's request
was certainly reasonable.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/

Ave,

Actually he called for censorship. That request is not reasonable. Please refernce his most recent post.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam


Salve Senator Corneli,

> However his post stated, where is the moderation when you need it.
> That is calling for the Praetors,

Perhaps; but "moderation" can also mean self-restraint, rather than
restraint imposed from without, and in that sense Solaris's request
was certainly reasonable.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave!

<< Actually he called for censorship. That request is not reasonable. Please refernce his most recent post. >>

Whoa Sulla. Who made you the judge of reason? That's a heavy responsibility, amice. Relax Sulla. It's what I have done, too. Appearently I was confused about the list rules. Sometimes things can be rather simple...

Vale bene,
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Senator Corneli,

> Actually he called for censorship. That request is not reasonable.
> Please refernce his most recent post.

Indeed, as I saw a few seconds after I sent my reply.

I do not support or condone censorship except in the cases of spam
or denial of service attacks (aka "flooding"). Free speech is a
fundamental human right and may not be trifled with.

As odious as the current "discussion" is, I believe it should be
allowed to continue.

For my part, I will simply delete the messages of jingoistic morons
without reply. There's nothing to be gained by wasting time with
an argument here.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/

Salvete,

I have just been reading a newspaper report about an inscribed wooden
tablet at the Museum of London. The wax coating has worn away, but faint
outlines of the inscribed text could still be seen on the wood via
infra-red imaging.

It reads: "Vegetus, assistant slave of Montanus, the slave of the August
Emperor, has bought the girl Fortunata, by nationality a Diablintian,
for 600 denarii. She is warranted healthy and not liable to run away".

I know that educated slaves could aspire to great wealth and influence,
but I had not thought in terms of slaves owning slaves. Does anyone know
if this was a common occurrence?

600 denarii seems quite a substantial sum. I would have thought that
anyone having that much wealth at his disposal would have been looking
primarily to secure their own freedom. Or would there have been any
advantage in remaining a slave in a powerful position as opposed to
being a not so important freedman?

I would be interested if anyone could tell me more about this.

Valete,

Gaia Flavia Aureliana



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/22/2003 6:33:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pompeii@... writes:

> I would have thought that
> anyone having that much wealth at his disposal would have been looking
> primarily to secure their own freedom.

A slave purchasing a slave for himself instead of purchasing his own freedom?
Perhaps he was purchasing the slave on orders from the Emperor and not
actually purchasing her for himself.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, Mar 22, 2003 at 04:31:27PM -0600, Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

>
> I do not support or condone censorship except in the cases of spam
> or denial of service attacks (aka "flooding"). Free speech is a
> fundamental human right and may not be trifled with.

That last sentence should be carved in glowing electrons on the virtual
wall of this place.

> As odious as the current "discussion" is, I believe it should be
> allowed to continue.
>
> For my part, I will simply delete the messages of jingoistic morons
> without reply. There's nothing to be gained by wasting time with
> an argument here.

And that closely parallels my own take on the discussion. To quote a
better Latinist than I am,


FLAMMIFERIS CIBUM NOLITE DARE
-- L. Suetonius Nerva

(Loosely translated from "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS".)


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing crumbles.
-- Sallust, "Jugurtha"

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 18:39, L. Sicinius Drusus escreveu:

> My Impression is there was a degree of "Freedom of
> Speech" prior to the time of Marius and Sulla, but it
> existed in a negative sense rather than being
> considered a right. The Senate could and did ban
> speech on certain topics from time to time. You could
> still speak out on other topics, not as a "right" but
> simply because the Senate didn't bother to ban them.
> Any "Freedom of Speech" that existed was more because
> of a lax attitude among the Senate when the State
> wasn't in danger than anything else.
>

In my mail still quoted below I said "freedom fo Speech was tolerated"
^^^^^^^^^

> --- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@...>
> wrote:
> > M. Villius, I dont know about you, but when I have
> > read Livy I recall a number of examples when freedom
> > of speech was not allowed. Just off the top of my
> > head was the crack down on the Bacchanlian cult and
> > the burning of those books and followers of that
> > sect were persecuted. And this was during Cato the
> > Censor's time (about 180 bce).
> >

That is a religious issue and yes there was no Freedom of Cult.
Religion was a state matter and not free. Gods had to be adopted
officially by the state.

BTW the abrevation for Manius is M'. M. stands for Marcus

Manius Villius Limitanus

> > Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle
> > republic: Before the
> > murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was
> > tolerated, if not they
> > would never have been elected.
> > Cato the elder was quite disturbing with Carthado
> > delenda est and was
> > free to speak even in a time of strong comercial
> > colaboration with
> > Carthage. etc.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
> > --
> > Michel Loos <loos@...>
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 17:34, Quintus Lanius Paulinus escreveu:

> > Its is quite interessant, but I don't think that it bears any
> > resemblance with what is going on today.
> >
> > What we see today is much closer to Caesar's Ponthian campaign.
> > You know: Veni,Vidi,Vici.
> >
> > At that point the Republic was very close to the Empire, just
> another
> > World War away.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michel Loos <loos@q...>
>
> Salve Mani Villi,
>
> Your point is well taken but I was thinking in terms of comparing
> the "shock value" of Teutoburg to the people of Rome at that time and
> the "shock" compared to that of the USA on Sept. 11. Both
> institutions were comfortable in their situations but they recieved
> an ugly lesson of just how vunerable they could be.
>

No TV, no radio, no press, the shock on the Romans was not so strong and
the answer to calm it was quite interresting:
Cut of a part of Belgica and transform it in 2 Germanias. This way
the romans, out of the power circle, thought that Germania was
effectivelly conquered.

Manius Villius Limitanus


--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

In a message dated 3/22/03 12:57:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
loos@... writes:

> Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle republic: Before the
> murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was tolerated, if not they
> would never have been elected.
>

It was tolerated because they had a strong following. Even the out spoken
demagogue could get away with it, if he had a large following. During the
second Punic war, the Senate
suspended the constitution after Trasimeno. The danger to the Republic from
external forces was that great.
Most here know I'm outspoken critic of the war. But I still took an oath to
the United States
and if I was called back, I'd serve in that war. That's what taking an oath
is all about. But calling those who are against the war unpatriotic is a
little much.

Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Being a slave in Roma wasn't always a hopeless
postion, and this was even more true if you were the
Emperor's slave. Manumission was common, and would
bring the benifits of becomming a citizen and a client
of the Emperor. Attempting to purchase your freedom
instead of awaiting Manumission could be viewed as not
trusting the Emperor's genorisity, a dangrous postion
under some of the Princeps.

Ownership of slaves by wealthy Imperial Slaves and
Freedmen was very common in the Imperial period.

--- Christine Schofield <pompeii@...> wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I have just been reading a newspaper report about an
> inscribed wooden
> tablet at the Museum of London. The wax coating has
> worn away, but faint
> outlines of the inscribed text could still be seen
> on the wood via
> infra-red imaging.
>
> It reads: "Vegetus, assistant slave of Montanus, the
> slave of the August
> Emperor, has bought the girl Fortunata, by
> nationality a Diablintian,
> for 600 denarii. She is warranted healthy and not
> liable to run away".
>
> I know that educated slaves could aspire to great
> wealth and influence,
> but I had not thought in terms of slaves owning
> slaves. Does anyone know
> if this was a common occurrence?
>
> 600 denarii seems quite a substantial sum. I would
> have thought that
> anyone having that much wealth at his disposal would
> have been looking
> primarily to secure their own freedom. Or would
> there have been any
> advantage in remaining a slave in a powerful
> position as opposed to
> being a not so important freedman?
>
> I would be interested if anyone could tell me more
> about this.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gaia Flavia Aureliana
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release
> Date: 17/03/2003
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

In a message dated 3/22/03 3:32:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pompeii@... writes:

> for 600 denarii

That's a lot of bread. She must have had some importance to purchased for so
much.

Slaves certainly could own slaves. Tullius talks about one such instance as
one of his examples, though I can't remember the exact reference.
Remember, slavery in Rome is different then that in the Antebellum South.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gnaeus Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

It is my pleasure to inform you about the opening of a new Academia
course: the Greek History Course.

You might ask: "What is a Greek History Course doing in Nova Roma?".
Well, to all those whose favourite Latin phrase is "Graecus non
legitur", I would like to remind you that a basic understanding of
Greek history is essential to actually understand the history of Rome,
since Rome's world and Rome herself were heavily influenced by Greek
culture.

I think that this is an excellent opportunity to delve into a
fascinating subject and to truly understand some aspects of our common
heritage as Romans and, to some extent, Greeks.

The course will begin on April the 21st, and it will last until June
the 22nd. Student subscriptions are accepted from this very moment; you
just need to be a citizen of Nova Roma to apply.

The course will be imparted by Caius Curius Saturninus, the Academia's
procurator and praeses triumvirati, so you can be sure that much care
and devotion have been put into it. I am sure that it will be worth the
effort.

So visit the Academia website at:
http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/
and subscribe today!

The glory of Ancient Greece is waiting for you.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR·ET·SENATOR
TRIVMVIR·ACADEMIAE
LICTOR·CVRIATVS

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS
Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más...
http://messenger.yahoo.es

Gregory Rose S.P.D.

As I only yesterday applied for citizenship in Nova Roma, I was
hesitant to
enter the controversy this thread has produced. However, as a historian
I think I can provide some background on the question of free speech in
classical Rome. While the extant sources are sparse the earlier one
looks,
there appears to have been little official suppression of speech in the
earlier republic, the period of the decemviri excepted. It is first
with the
unofficial violence of the senatorial class against the Gracchi and
then the
Senatus Consultum Ultimum that a period of varying degrees of official
suppression of free speech began, including the Marian/Cinnan and Sullan
proscriptions, which culminated in the proscriptions of Caesarean
adherents by the Boni after the refusal to allow C. Julius Caesar to stand
for the consulship in absentia. After his victory in the Civil War
Caesar appears to have been extremely careful to tolerate, and at some
points, encourage the free expression of opinion. Proscription returned
after the formation of the second Triumvirate and continued past the
ultimate victory of Augustus. However, after 22 B.C.E. Augustus seems to
have encouraged relatively free speech at least among the senatorial and
equestrian classes, although memory of the period of the civil wars tended
to inhibit it. It is with the reign of Tiberius that public
opposition of any
sort resulted in official suppression (although there were issues and
individuals toward which Tiberius was relatively tolerant of dissent).
The
restriction of opposition appears to have been relaxed a bit early in the
reign of Caligula, although vigorously reinstated in 39 C.E. Claudius
tended
to be relatively tolerant of dissent, although coercive measures became
more common later into his reign after the discovery of assassination
plots,
and in the reign of Nero the level of tolerated dissent varied with
internal
struggles within the imperial family and among imperial advisors. This
summary is, perforce, very, very sketchy and our knowledge of the
specifics of
political discourse is largely limited by the nature of the sources to
the political elite. In general the repression of dissenting
political speech
in the republic began in earnest with the socio-economic and political
crises of the late second century B.C.E. and continued with significant
interludes of relative toleration through the end of the Julio-Claudians.
In the late republic there was also at least as much danger to free speech
from private violence as from official sanction as street violence became
a fixture of political life; this, of course, also had an inhibitory
effect on political discourse.

Vespasian encouraged greater senatorial and equestrian participation in
government and, as a consequence, was generally tolerant of dissent which
did not threaten the imperial institution, but I'll stop with the the
first of the Flavians, else this posting will become intolerably long.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose
(who has not yet received admission in the gens to which he has applied
and, thus, does not yet have a Novaroman name)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/22/03 3:32:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> pompeii@t... writes:
>
>
> > for 600 denarii
>
> That's a lot of bread. She must have had some importance to

purchased for so

> much.
>

I'd say so, I roughly calculate that to be about $20,000 (give or
take since I'm guestimating a few centuries of inflation). She must
have been of exceptional beauty to command such a high price.

Q. Cassius Calvus

In a message dated 3/22/03 6:39:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, gfr@...
writes:

> While the extant sources are sparse the earlier one
> looks, there appears to have been little official suppression of speech in
> the
> earlier republic, the period of the decemviri excepted. It is first
> with the unofficial violence of the senatorial class against the Gracchi
> and
> then the Senatus Consultum Ultimum that a period of varying degrees of
> official
> suppression of free speech began, including the Marian/Cinnan and Sullan
> proscriptions.
>

You forgot the post L. Trasimeno SCs passed by the Senate, to regulate the
populace.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gregory Rose Gaiae Flaviae Aurelianae salutem dicit.

> I have just been reading a newspaper report about an inscribed wooden
> tablet at the Museum of London. The wax coating has worn away, but faint
> outlines of the inscribed text could still be seen on the wood via
> infra-red imaging.

If you could relate the dating of the tablet, it might be possible to
bring epigraphic evidence
to explicate the text more thoroughly than to simply note that the
purchase of slaves by
slaves was a not uncommon phenomenon; also there are periods in which
the diplomatic "servus Augusti" was used self-referentially even by
imperial freedmen, who were, of course, free at law and citizens; it
also occurs occasionally in inscriptions involving the imperial
cultus, although more commonly as "servus divi Augusti" (my copies of
the CIL and RIB are at the office and the Epigraphische Datenbank
Heidelberg search utility appears to be down at the moment, so I can't
provide exact references presently).

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Gregory Rose Q. Fabio Maximo salutem dicit.

> You forgot the post L. Trasimeno SCs passed by the Senate, to

regulate the

> populace.

Actually I was distinguishing between temporary, panicked measures
taken in the aftermath of a military catastrophe with ultimately
little constitutional consequence and the kind of fundamental
political changes which the late second century B.C.E. crises
inititated. Plutarch's account of Q. Fabius Maximus' policy conflict
with his own Master of the Horse and the emergence of senatorial
opposition to the prisoner exchange suggests that the post-Trasimene
SC wasn't enforced all that vigorously. Furthermore the ability of
Metilius to incite the population to limit Fabius' dictatorship argues
that what Plutarch describes as the fear of the people to speak in
opposition to Fabius was overcome by an effective tribune's oratory
(and not merely by virtue of tribunal immunity) . Certainly you are
right to point out that the post-Trasimene measures were a repression
of dissent, but that repression of dissent is, I think, a much more
complicated and far less clear matter than the anti-Gracchan SCU, and
there is some merit in Plutarch's suggestion that Fabius' own conduct
was more effective in overawing popular dissent than any other measures.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

In a message dated 3/22/03 10:15:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, gfr@...
writes:

> Certainly you are right to point out that the post-Trasimene measures were a
> repression of dissent, but that repression of dissent is, I think, a much
> more
> complicated and far less clear matter than the anti-Gracchan SCU, and
> there is some merit in Plutarch's suggestion that Fabius' own conduct
> was more effective in overawing popular dissent than any other measures.
>
> Ave et vale.
>

Salvete
Well the old man had great clout...
I'm sure if our Senate felt as threatened as the old Senate did by the
Gracchan measures
they to would take similar steps. However, even though our constitution
guarantees the right to free speech, there are certain things we do not
consider free. You can mock the consuls all you want, as long has you sign
your name to your lampoon. However, masquerading as another citizen and
engaging in same slander is not allowed.
You cannot insult the Gods of the Roma Religio. You can question their
existence, in a philosophical way, but we are firm on no mockery and no
preaching about converting the state Religio to something else. So that is
not true freedom of speech. Anybody attempting to start a rebellion against
the government of Nova Roma, such as a demogague, is also forbidden.
We have moderation on this Forum. In other words by moderators. Of course
in old Rome there were no moderators, just fear of being overheard, so that
is one advantage of the electronic age.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
(the young one)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gregory Rose Lucio Cornelio Sullae salutem dicit.

Thank you for your kind welcome. I am a historian and palaeographer
whose main research interests are in late classical antiquity and the
early middle ages; over the last decade my research has primarily
concentrated on 10-11th Anglo-Saxon England. I did Roman history as
one of my Ph.D. fields and try to keep up with the literature, but I
haven't published on anything earlier than the mid-4th century C.E.
(re a problem involving Sulpicius Severus' account of the
Romano-British participants in the Council of Rimini in his
_Chronicon_). I'm more likely to be acquainted with the current
literature on classical Latin and Greek palaeography and, to a lesser
extent, epigraphy than any other Roman subfield. The gens to which I
have applied is Iulia and I hope to take the Novaroman name Gaius
Iulius Scaurus (I know that Scaurus isn't an onomastically-documented
cognomen of the Iulii, but the cane to which my arthritis has bound me
makes it apt :-).

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Gnaeus Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

I have seen on this main list several calls to the praetores
regarding off-topic messages. I am now writing these lines to clarify
my own position as praetor of Nova Roma.

The Constitution of Nova Roma grants every citizen the right to
express his opinion. We, the praetores, think that freedom of speech
is a very important affair in any modern society. We also think that,
by protecting freedom of speech, we are following the Mos Maiorum.

So we do not consider *any* topic to be off-topic on this mailing
list. As long as you behave in a civil manner and do not attack the
dignitas of other citizens, it is your own responsability to choose
which thoughts you want to share with us all on this mailing list.

We do *not* encourage you to talk about macronational politics;
frankly, we all hear enough about that subject through other venues.
Although you are free to do so, remember that it is quite unlikely
that you are going to actually change anyone's mind with a witty
remark on this mailing list; the most probable result is that your
own dignitas as a Roman citizen will suffer.

Most of you are mature adults. You can make your own choices. You
don't need the praetores to tell you what you can say on this mailing
list and what issues are better left for private conversation. Please
act accordingly.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP3TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR

Ex Officio Consulis Senioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

Salvete Quirites!

I hereby ask any citizen that want to candidate and fulfil the
requirements below for the Propraetorship of Canada Occidentalis
Provincia and the Praetorship of America Austroccidentalis Provincia
to annonce themselves to me at the above address at the latest at
Tuesday the 25th of March at 20.00 Roma time.

The candidates must fulfil the following requirements:

1. The candidate must have reached 21 years of age. (LEX IUNIA DE
MAGISTRATUUM AETATE)
2. A candidate can be appointed as a Propraetor without having been a
citizen for 6 months, be he/she must have been a citizen for six
months before he/she assumes the office. (LEX VEDIA DE CURSO HONORUM)
3. All Governors must be Assidui ( LEX VEDIA DE ASSIDUI ET CAPITI CENSI).
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 23:35, Gnaeus Salix Astur escreveu:

> Gnaeus Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> It is my pleasure to inform you about the opening of a new Academia
> course: the Greek History Course.
>
> You might ask: "What is a Greek History Course doing in Nova Roma?".
> Well, to all those whose favourite Latin phrase is "Graecus non
> legitur", I would like to remind you that a basic understanding of
> Greek history is essential to actually understand the history of Rome,
> since Rome's world and Rome herself were heavily influenced by Greek
> culture.
>
> I think that this is an excellent opportunity to delve into a
> fascinating subject and to truly understand some aspects of our common
> heritage as Romans and, to some extent, Greeks.
>
> The course will begin on April the 21st, and it will last until June
> the 22nd. Student subscriptions are accepted from this very moment; you
> just need to be a citizen of Nova Roma to apply.
>
> The course will be imparted by Caius Curius Saturninus, the Academia's
> procurator and praeses triumvirati, so you can be sure that much care
> and devotion have been put into it. I am sure that it will be worth the
> effort.
>
> So visit the Academia website at:
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/
> and subscribe today!
>

It is not listed yet on the open/planned courses pages.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> The glory of Ancient Greece is waiting for you.
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
> PRAETOR·ET·SENATOR
> TRIVMVIR·ACADEMIAE
> LICTOR·CVRIATVS
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS
> Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más...
> http://messenger.yahoo.es
>
>
> (To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Latinitas-unsubscribe@egroups.com)
> __________________________________
> VIVAT LATINITAS! VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
> __________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--
Michel Loos <loos@...>

23 March X KAL APR NP Dies Religiosus
Tubilustrium
XXIII Martius/March 23: This is the day of the Purification of the Trumpets, held on both XXIII Martius and XXIII Maius. An ewe is sacrificed to sanctify the trumpets used in many of the public rites. It was accompanied by a dance of the Salii. Once again it is a ceremony of purification and preparation for both the coming sacral year and the military campaigning season.

--------
23 March X KAL APR NP Dies Religiosus

The ceremony of the Purification of the Trumpets, held on 23 March, was repeated on 23 May and in both months the following day was marked in the Calendars as QRCF (Quando Rex Comitiavit Fas). A note in the Praenestine calendar records that 23 March was called Tubilustrium because during it 'the trumpets used in the sacred rites are purified in the Hall of the Shoemakers' (in atrio sutorio lustrantur, quibus in sacris utuntur); a ewe lamb was sacrificed. The site of the Hall is not known. The note further describes the Tubilustrium as a festival of Mars, thought Ovid attributes it forti deae, namely Minerva. John Lydus, who mentions the Salian priests, says that the worship was paid to Mars and a goddess called in the Sabine tongue Nerine; she will be Nerio, the alleged wife of Mars. Thus the Tubilustrium developed in the same way as the Quinquatrus.
The nature of the trumpets (tubi) is not clear. They are generally taken to have been ritual instruments (like the sacred ancilia) for use in summoning the assembly on the following day, but presumably the ceremony also involved a symbolic purification of the trumpets of the whole army. Whether any actual military instruments were used or representatives of the army (as the tribuni at the Quinquatrus) were present, we do not know. Another suggestion is that ordinary trumpets were used which then became purified, that is when Ovid says 'lustrantur purae...tubae', the purae is proleptisc. In any case the ceremony was designed to help to make the army fit for war, and many Romans who did not attend it would be reminded of the occasion by seeing the Salii dancing through the streets of the city.

Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic by H.H. Scullard

Mars nos protegas

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is some info about that Roman Tablet.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: David Meadows
To: explorator
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:02 AM
Subject: [Explorator] explorator 5.47



ADVERTISEMENT


My Groups | Explorator Main Page




================================================================
explorator 5.47 March 23, 2003
================================================================
Editor's note: Depending on your mail software, some urls may
wrap (especially those from the Telegraph) which will require
you to rebuild the url at your end; if you get a 'file not
found', check to see if the url wrapped on you. Most urls should
be active for at least eight hours from the time of publication.

For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text
and NEVER has attachments. Be suspicious of any Explorator which
arrives otherwise!!!
================================================================
================================================================

Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Bill Kennedy, Bob Heuman, Jeffrey Becker,
Gary Nunn, Hernan Astudillo, Mike Ruggeri, Louis A. Okin, Steve
Rankin, Yonatan Nadelman, Anthony Williams, John McMahon, Leanne
Archer, W. Richard Frahm, John Pearce, Dave Sowdon, and Karl
Wittwer for headses upses this week (a.a.h.i.h.l.n.o.o.)

================================================================
================================================================
AFRICA, EUROPE, AND ASIA
================================================================
The Al Ain excavation continues in Dubai:

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=81479

The first is nice piece (that I missed) on the threat to archaeological sites
in Iraq; the second a similar piece from the Art Newspaper:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/World/iraq_antiquities030310.html
http://81.112.115.148/allemandi/TAN/news/article.asp?idart=10931

More:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_23-3-2003_pg9_14
http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=YYKY1D4SAV3FECRBAELCFFA?type=scienceNews&storyID=2417919
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsdig213183837mar21,0,726498.story?coll=ny-health-headlines
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0319_030319_iraqiantiquities.html
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,919120,00.html

.. and in a semi-similar vein, we've heard of human shields, but howzabout
the use of 'cultural shields':

http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=40537791

The Jehoash inscription suffered some damage this week at the hands
of Israeli police:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/886672.asp
http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0317ancient-tablet17-ONhtml
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/03/17/international1534EST0690.DTL

A late Iron Age bit of "folk art" has been found during hospital
construction in Cambridge:

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/news.asp?sec=1&id=561153

A tablet preserving the records of the sale of a Roman slavegirl
was recently found in London:

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/22/nreci22.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/22/ixhome.html

The Roman mosaics at Brading Roman Villa may have to be reburied if
funds can't be found to preserve them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2856187.stm

A Dark Age Christian cemetery has been found in an English schoolyard:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2860547.stm

The Ayodhya excavation is sparking some violent reactions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/international/asia/14INDI.html

The New York Times has a touristy piece on the Labrang monastery:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/travel/16labrang.html

.. and a art historical/aimed-at-collectors piece on Tang horses:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/21/arts/design/21ANTI.html
================================================================
THE AMERICAS
================================================================
More coverage of the 'collapse' of the Maya:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23311-2003Mar13

John Noble Wilford has written a nice piece on Machu Picchu:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/science/social/18INCA.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/90398.html

Low lake levels in Arizona are revealing settlements of the Salado
people:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0316submergedhistory16.html

A touristy sort of thing on petroglyphs etc. in Saguaro National Park:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/21/travel/21PETR.html

A while ago we heard of the excavation of a 'black-owned' saloon
in Nevada which turned up things like a tabasco bottle ... now we
are getting rather more full coverage:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/884823.asp

The 'traditional' view of the Anasazi is changing:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/5444587.htm
================================================================
ALSO OF INTEREST
================================================================
The latest on the DNA front is searching for the first domesticated
cattle:

http://www.naturalhistory.com/naturalhistory/0203/0203_feature.html

This week, it's the Lebananon Daily Star with a piece on Gertrude Bell
(still looking for a movie!!):

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/features/22_03_03_d.htm

.. and another!:

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100local/page.cfm?objectid=12769642&method=full&siteid=50081

This week's sport-invented-by-an-ancient-culture piece looks at polo,
invented by the Chinese:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/18/eng20030318_113530.shtml

A piece on traditional irrigation in the Andes might also be of interest:

http://www.naturalhistory.com/naturalhistory/1102/1002_feature.html

.. as might a piece on the antiquity of 'click languages':

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/science/social/18CLIC.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/90397.html

Coventry is the first place in England to have an "Historic Environment
Record Officer":

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12766820&method=full&siteid=50003

Is there a secret city beneath Tokyo?:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20030301a1.htm

Charlotte Bronte is out with a new book (!):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/17/arts/17ARTS.html

Humanities magazine has a piece on the search for some lost frescoes
commissioned to accompany the publication of Petrarch's *Lives of
Famous Men*:

http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2003-01/frescoes.html
================================================================
ON THE NEWSSTANDS
================================================================
A new issue of British Archaeology:

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba69/index.shtml

.. and Biblical Archaeology Review:

http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/indexBAR.html
================================================================
ON THE WEB
================================================================
Two new sites were brought to my attention this week ...

The Vindolanda Tablets (vols. I and II) are now available online
(wow ... this is what publication of inscriptions should always
be like):

http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk:8080/

. The *Bibliography of Dendrochronology* site also looks like it will be
extremely useful:

http://www01.wsl.ch/dendrobiblio/

Zahi Hawass has recently put up an article on 'Secret Doors Inside
the Great Pyramid' at his own website:

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/articles/secret_doors_inside_the_great_pyramid.htm
================================================================
ON THE ARCHAEOLOGY CHANNEL
================================================================
The Anglo-American Project in Pompeii:

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/
================================================================
CRIME BEAT
================================================================
A copy of the U.S. Bill of of Rights which has been missing for
138 years has been recovered:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/19/bill.of.rights/index.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/887647.asp

Italian police have recovered a stolen ivory face/mask of the god Apollo:

http://tinyurl.com/7zp3
http://ads.guardian.co.uk/html.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&site=Guardian§ion=105600&rand=3656082&location=top
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6155746%255E1702,00.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6155746%255E1702,00.html
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20030319&Category=API&ArtNo=303190934&Ref=AR

The latest on looting in Afghanistan:

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=32866&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=AFGHANISTAN
================================================================
AT ABOUT.COM
================================================================
Ancient History Guide N.S. Gill has a piece on the threat to archaeological
sites in Iraq:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa031903a.htm

Similarly, Archaeology Guide Kris Hirst points out the irony (from
an archaeological perspective) of the current conflict:

http://archaeology.about.com/library/weekly/aa031903a.htm
================================================================
BOOK REVIEWS
================================================================
Henry Camen, *Spain's Road to Empire*:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,915697,00.html

Dan Brown, *The DaVinci Code* (fiction):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/17/books/17MASL.html

Michel Chauveau, *Cleopatra: Beyond the Myth*
Maria Wyke, *The Roman Mistress: Ancient and Modern Representation":

http://books.guardian.co.uk/lrb/articles/0,6109,916814,00.html

Ira Berlin, *Generations of Captivity:A History of African-American Slaves*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/books/review/023DEWLT.html

Jose Carlos Somoza, *The Athenian Murders* (fiction):

http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.print_unique?e=C&f=13005&m=A40&aa=3&eidos=S

Alexia Brue, *Cathedrals of the Flesh: My Search for the Perfect Bath*:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,918459,00.html
================================================================
PERFORMANCES
================================================================
Nabucco (New York):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/19/arts/music/19NABU.html

The Emperor's Club (now in Australia):

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/19/1047749822207.html
================================================================
DON'T EAT THAT ELMER (A.K.A. CUM GRANO SALIS)
================================================================
================================================================
EXHIBITIONS
================================================================
In the Time of the Etruscans (UPenn):

http://ae.philly.com/entertainment/ui/philly/miscEvent.html?id=10126&reviewId=6284&category=1
http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/03/19/3e783bbf4b796

Not really an exhibition, but coverage of the European Fine Art
Fair:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/arts/design/18MAAS.html

Sutton Hoo:

http://tinyurl.com/7zpn

Leonardo DaVinci: Master Draftsman:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/22/arts/design/22CONN.html

Triumph of Religion (Boston):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/arts/design/23UNGE.html

Archeologies (Thessaloniki):

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_civ_8748144_21/03/2003_27755

Byzantine Women and their World (Harvard):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/21/arts/design/21COTT.html
================================================================
CLASSICIST'S CORNER
================================================================
In case you missed it, the New York Times had a piece comparing
the Iliad to the current conflict:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/opinion/18KRIS.html

ClassCon in a piece on the ethics of war:

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i28/28b00701.htm

Ted Turner was talking about his Classics degree this week (scroll
right down to the end) ... I'm not sure whether this is a good
thing or a bad thing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60157-2003Mar20.html

Classicist involvement in protests this week:

http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=10651&repository=0001_article

This looks interesting ... treating the murder of Caesar as a modern
sort of crime scene:

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12751673&method=full&siteid=50003

Saw this on the Latin list ... Gabriele Albaroas has taken the time
to translate the script of Gladiator into Latin:

http://www.krescendo.com/gladiatorlatin/index.html

Classical Tradition fans will be interested in a piece on Greek Revival
architecture:

http://www.oldhousejournal.com/magazine/2003/february/greek_revival.shtm

The Spectator defies again this a.m. ...

Akropolis News in Classical Greek:
http://www.akwn.net/

Radio Finland's Nuntii Latini
http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/trans.html

Radio Bremen's Der Monatsrückblick - auf Latein
http://www.radiobremen.de/online/latein/

U.S. Weather in Latin:
http://latin.wunderground.com/
================================================================
REPEATS
================================================================
300,000 B.P. Footprints:

http://www.cp.org/english/online/full/science/030312/g031206A.html
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030310/footprint.html

British Mummies:

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F03%2F18%2Fnmummy18.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=300111
http://www.msnbc.com/news/886454.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2856399.stm
http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=6294621
================================================================
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of
the labours of 'media research division' of The Atrium. Various
on-line news and magazine sources are scoured for news of the
ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating
to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair
game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of
charge!
================================================================
Useful Addresses
================================================================

Past issues of Explorator are available on the web at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Explorator/messages

To subscribe to Explorator, send a blank email message to:
mailto:Explorator-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To unsubscribe, send a blank email message to:
mailto:Explorator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

To send a 'heads up' to the editor or contact him for other
reasons:
mailto:dmeadows@...

================================================================
Explorator is Copyright (c) 2003 David Meadows. Feel free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals, students,
teachers, etc., but please include this copyright notice. These
links are not to be posted to any website by any means (whether
by direct posting or snagging from a usenet group or some other
email source) without my express written permission. I think it
is only right that I be made aware of public fora which are
making use of content gathered in Explorator. Thanks!
================================================================


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gregory Rose Q. Fabio Maximo Illustri salutem dicit.

> Salvete
> Well the old man had great clout...
> I'm sure if our Senate felt as threatened as the old Senate did by

the

> Gracchan measures they to would take similar steps. However, even

though our >constitution guarantees the right to free speech, there
are certain things we do not >consider free. You can mock the consuls
all you want, as long has you sign your name >to your lampoon.
However, masquerading as another citizen and engaging in same >slander
is not allowed.You cannot insult the Gods of the Roma Religio. You
can >question their existence, in a philosophical way, but we are firm
on no mockery and no >preaching about converting the state Religio to
something else. So that is not true >freedom of speech. Anybody
attempting to start a rebellion against the government of >Nova Roma,
such as a demogague, is also forbidden.We have moderation on this

>Forum. In other words by moderators. Of course in old Rome there

were no moderators, just fear of being overheard, so that is one
advantage of the electronic age.

Please recall that my all comments on relative periods of freedom for
political dissent are by intention and their nature (and the nature of
some of the sources) directed only to the respublica of Roma Antiqua
and the early Empire, and specifically _not_ to Nova Roma, since they
are in response to a historical question about freedom of political
discourse in Republican and early Imperial Rome. There were also in
Roma Antiqua wide areas of public speech apart from political
discourse which were circumscribed by law and custom in ways
analogous to Novaroman practice: maledictio and impietas were offenses
against the state religion and, until late in Constantine's reign,
prosecutable (more properly charges of maledictio and impietas were
used then to suppress the traditional Religio Romana in favor of
Christianity, and often in episcopal rather than secular courts -- I
don't recall off the top of my head the exact edictum in the
Theodosian Code which cites the Constantinian precident authorizing
bishops to conduct state trials with the same authority as imperial
governors, but I can look it up). Attempts to overthrow the republic
were actionable as maiestas or perduellio, but in both there had to be
an overt act beyond the simple act of dissenting speech for the actio
to prevail in court, and of course there were actiones available for
fraud and slander. Excepting the Sullan constitution, soon abandoned,
the old republic was singularly inept at suppressing demagoguery
except on an ad hoc basis (Saturninus comes to mind). And, of course,
all these actiones aimed at proscribing dissenting discourse or
behaviour could only be brought by private citizens for trial before a
praetor (or iudex depending specifically on the actio), and the most
powerful politicians who proscribed were successful by virtue of
creating a class of delatores -- it was that system of delatores which
chilled dissenting speech most in the later Republic and early
Empire. List moderation is a prudent policy given the venue and
technology of Nova Roma; so long as a class of citizens (delatores)
are not encouraged by a praetor to seduce unwitting citizens into
treasonous private remarks which would then be rapidly brought to the
praetor's ear so that proscription and confiscation could immediately
commence. I suppose that at some point something like that could
happen in Nova Roma, but I doubt it very seriously, because despite
the mythos (and I use that in a good sense) of the state is not
accompanied by real coercive power (nothing much worse can happen to a
citizen who refuses the admonition of the moderator than revocation of
citizenship). Not having the power to pauperize or kill makes the
possibility of actively suppressing dissenting speech in Nova Roma
rather less chilling of dissenting speech than the means at hand for
the leaders of Roma Antiqua. And I have very grave doubts, from what
I've read of Nova Roma and its history, that an elected magistrate
would even think to go down that path, the Civil War notwithstanding.

BTW, when you wrote

> I'm sure if our Senate felt as threatened as the old Senate did by

the

> Gracchan measures they to would take similar steps

I assume that you don't really mean that you would advocate murdering
political opponents, including sacrosanct tribunes and others who had
taken refuge in the sanctuary of temples; after all that was method
the threatened "old Senate" actually used. I write this in pointed
jest (I hope you realize that this is a reductio ad absurdam) to
suggest that the political process is fundamentally different when the
state really possesses the ultimate coercive power.

I am very much enjoying this discussion and thank you for it. Please
also know that I absolutely support the policy of respect for the
Religio Romana as required in Nova Roma (since you've never met me
outside this venue, I can understand if you interpreted my remarks as
having an impious flavour).

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Gregory Rose Gn. Salici Astri Praetori salutem dicit.

Excellentissime, nobilis Praetor. You bring honour to your magistracy
by doing your
duty.

Ave et Vale.

Gregory Rose

My Friends;

--Gods of War:

I thank those who were kind enough to explain the rather murky (to me at
least) comment on the presently occuring conflict in the Near-East. I
cannot say that I agree with the author's thoughts, and from what I see,
niether do the thousands of enemy soldiers who have surrendered or laid
down arms in this same conflict. I was amused by the Iraqui citizen who
removed his shoe and slapped the dictator's poster face with it. Later
I heard a comment from an Iraqui spokesman that someone in opposition to
his views "should have thier shoes removed and be struck in the face
with them."

I am wondering if there is any particular meaning to these related
comments / actions. I know from my experiences with other cultures that
such comments / actions often have a particular meaning within a given
culture that is not clear to those outside of that culture.

My thanks to Pontiff Cincinnatus, with whose comments, I fully agree, as
well as to those who were kind enough to provide a clearly understood
explanation as requested.

Roman Bridges--

According to Spanish authorities there are three bridges, to my
knowledge, in Spain which are of Roman origin. The magnificent
structure in the city of Ronda, which is still in use today for modern
vehicular traffic, and which spans a deep and very narrow gorge which
divides the city. In later years the center of the bridge span, which
is hollow, was used to house prisoners of war, and while we were in
Spain, this space within the bridge was turned into a restaurant, where
my wife and I had dinner one night. I can stongly recommend the
historical flavor and ambiance of the location, if not that of the food
served (Grin!!!!!!!!!).

A second very small Roman Bridge can be found along the main highway
from the town of Puerto De Santa Maria on the Bay of Cadiz to the lovely
city of Jerez De La Frontera (sherry capitol of the world!!). This is a
small Roman bridge over a stream close by the highway. It is no longer
used for modern traffic due to the narrowness of the bridge, but is
still used by farmers in the area to bring in agricultural products by
wagon from outlying fields.

A third bridge is one which spans either the Cardoner or the Llobreget
River (my atlas is not clear on that particular point) near the
"Monasterio de Monserrat" which is about 40 KM Northwest of Barcelona in
the foothlls of the Pyrenees Mtns. This bridge is also in use only by
the local people, a new highway and bridge having been constructed just
dwnstream of the Old Roman bridge. In structure, as I recall, this
bridge is similar to the Roman Bridge, "Ponte Grosso" in the Furlow
Gorge near Urbino, Italy.

The first and second of the above bridges I have made drawings of from
photographs taken when we visited there. The first drawing was done on
a papyrus sheet. Unfortunately, when I lived in Spain, I was not as
deep into Roman Architechture as I am at present, or I should have spent
more effort in getting to know these structures much better. I add my
thanks to those of the others on this list for the posting of this
information, and I would ask my Beneificarius Militarium Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo, to place this Bridge List together with this response
message in the Militarium List Files.

My thanks for your efforts in this area. If you have any further
information regarding these bridges, such as internet sites, local
libraries. museums, or other local information sources, I would be
pleased to have the references.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens;

Praefectus Architechturas / Geographica;
Sodalitas Militarium;
Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Ave Audens

"The magnificent structure in the city of Ronda, which is still in use today
for modern
vehicular traffic, and which spans a deep and very narrow gorge which
divides the city."

This website says the bridge was built 200 years ago, although it looks
Roman to me:

http://www.travelinginspain.com/Ronda.html

GB Agricola
-----Original Message-----
From: jmath669642reng@... [mailto:jmath669642reng@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:36 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Gods of War / Roman Bridges


My Friends;

--Gods of War:

I thank those who were kind enough to explain the rather murky (to me at
least) comment on the presently occuring conflict in the Near-East. I
cannot say that I agree with the author's thoughts, and from what I see,
niether do the thousands of enemy soldiers who have surrendered or laid
down arms in this same conflict. I was amused by the Iraqui citizen who
removed his shoe and slapped the dictator's poster face with it. Later
I heard a comment from an Iraqui spokesman that someone in opposition to
his views "should have thier shoes removed and be struck in the face
with them."

I am wondering if there is any particular meaning to these related
comments / actions. I know from my experiences with other cultures that
such comments / actions often have a particular meaning within a given
culture that is not clear to those outside of that culture.

My thanks to Pontiff Cincinnatus, with whose comments, I fully agree, as
well as to those who were kind enough to provide a clearly understood
explanation as requested.

Roman Bridges--

According to Spanish authorities there are three bridges, to my
knowledge, in Spain which are of Roman origin. The magnificent
structure in the city of Ronda, which is still in use today for modern
vehicular traffic, and which spans a deep and very narrow gorge which
divides the city. In later years the center of the bridge span, which
is hollow, was used to house prisoners of war, and while we were in
Spain, this space within the bridge was turned into a restaurant, where
my wife and I had dinner one night. I can stongly recommend the
historical flavor and ambiance of the location, if not that of the food
served (Grin!!!!!!!!!).

A second very small Roman Bridge can be found along the main highway
from the town of Puerto De Santa Maria on the Bay of Cadiz to the lovely
city of Jerez De La Frontera (sherry capitol of the world!!). This is a
small Roman bridge over a stream close by the highway. It is no longer
used for modern traffic due to the narrowness of the bridge, but is
still used by farmers in the area to bring in agricultural products by
wagon from outlying fields.

A third bridge is one which spans either the Cardoner or the Llobreget
River (my atlas is not clear on that particular point) near the
"Monasterio de Monserrat" which is about 40 KM Northwest of Barcelona in
the foothlls of the Pyrenees Mtns. This bridge is also in use only by
the local people, a new highway and bridge having been constructed just
dwnstream of the Old Roman bridge. In structure, as I recall, this
bridge is similar to the Roman Bridge, "Ponte Grosso" in the Furlow
Gorge near Urbino, Italy.

The first and second of the above bridges I have made drawings of from
photographs taken when we visited there. The first drawing was done on
a papyrus sheet. Unfortunately, when I lived in Spain, I was not as
deep into Roman Architechture as I am at present, or I should have spent
more effort in getting to know these structures much better. I add my
thanks to those of the others on this list for the posting of this
information, and I would ask my Beneificarius Militarium Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo, to place this Bridge List together with this response
message in the Militarium List Files.

My thanks for your efforts in this area. If you have any further
information regarding these bridges, such as internet sites, local
libraries. museums, or other local information sources, I would be
pleased to have the references.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens;

Praefectus Architechturas / Geographica;
Sodalitas Militarium;
Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Friends;

I too have some very firm beliefs in regard to the present conflict in
the Near East. However, I am not sure that this list is the place to
air them. I am not convinced that I can change anyone's mind with my
views, and I am well aware that opposing views can quickly accelerate
into insult and abuse, as witness the "peace" march in New York
yesterday.

Further, I would not suppose that my personal views are of great intrest
to anyone, and any comments that I might have, very probably pale in
comparison to those comments relating to such a conflict from many
historical figures which are of interest to those on this list.

So, I shall keep my views to myself, and off this list, so as not to
further inflame those whose opinions differ from mine.

While everyone in the U.S. has a right to thier opinion as long as such
a view does not rob the rights of another American, in my view, there
are more appropriate forums for protest and response than this list.

Respectfully;

Jim Mathews

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Salvete,

My thanks to everyone who has responded to my query

> If you could relate the dating of the tablet, it might be possible

to

> bring epigraphic evidence
> to explicate the text more thoroughly than to simply note that the
> purchase of slaves by
> slaves was a not uncommon phenomenon;

The tablet has been dated to between 80 and 120 CE

Valete

Gaia Flavia Aureliana

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites; et salve, M'. Villi.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> It is not listed yet on the open/planned courses pages.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Click on "Syllabus Cursuum" on the left side and you will get there
:-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli Scaure / Mr. Gregory Rose.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gfrose2000" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> Gregory Rose Gn. Salici Astri Praetori salutem dicit.
>
> Excellentissime, nobilis Praetor. You bring honour to your
> magistracy by doing your duty.
>
> Ave et Vale.
>
> Gregory Rose

Thank you very much for your kind words, sir.

I also take this opportunity to give you a warm welcome to Nova Roma.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Gregory Rose S.P.D.

There's a rather nice photographic enhancement of the tablet on the
Museum of London webpage (http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/). Having
taken a good look at it, I have four comments: (1) on the basis of
letter-forms, it looks closer to 80 C.E. than 120 C.E. (although good
arguments for both the terminus a quo and terminus ad quem can be
made); (2) it seems to me more likely, given the syntax of the text,
that Vegetus was an imperial slave subordinated to the imperial slave
Montanus (i.e., as his assistant) rather than the personal slave of
Montanus (although, again, a perfectly respectable argument can be
made for the latter too); (3) the chap who wrote it had a very leaden
hand (this sort of deep impression into the wood is very, very rare in
wax tablets and an extraordinary bit of luck for the archaeologists);
and (4) the story in the Telegraph
(http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/22/nreci22.xml&s
Sheet=/news/2003/03/22/ixhome.html) simply has it wrong in asserting
that slaves could not
own slaves under Roman law.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

>
>While everyone in the U.S. has a right to thier opinion as long as such
>a view does not rob the rights of another American, in my view, there
>are more appropriate forums for protest and response than this list.
>

YES!
I fully agree with this!!
Having been in the u.s. military as a photographer....
I hear about the Oporation in the middle east every day.
I read about roman history more now for a break from the news.
I find I now delete more than read, A shame for there is so much knowlege to
be shared in NR.

Lucius Avisius

>Respectfully;
>
>Jim Mathews
>
>Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Salve Quinte Cassi

> My exact point, honored Consul. Nova Roma's purpose is to neither
> promote Americanism nor to promote anti-Americanism it is to promote
> Romanitas. If ones agenda is to promote anti-Americanism (there is a
> difference between dissent and anti-Americanism) then it is at least
> in my opinion hypocritical to do so through an organization chartered
> in America.

I agree completely with your second sentence. Nova Roma exists purely
to foster the Religio Romana and Romanitas. Your first and third
sentences, however, are incorrect in my opinion.

I was not making the same point you were. And, I do not see it to be at
all hypocritical to be anti-American and belong to Nova Roma, because
America is beside Nova Roma's point. It has nothing to do with Nova
Roma's raison d'etre. The accident of the location of Nova Roma's
incorporation is therefore beside the point.

I disagree with you on the grounds of this point of logic and to keep
Nova Roma's purpose clearly separate from the current hot-button issue,
and for no other reason. I choose to take M Minucius' path with regard
to my opinions on the US and the current war against Iraq. That is,
there are other, better venues in which to share them. I wouldn't have
commented on this thread, except that it seemed to me that you were
tying Nova Roma to the US in a way which isn't particularly valid.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

Gregory Rose S.P.D.

Having received a private email on the subject, I think I was unclear
in my posting about slaves owning slaves. While the Institutes of
Gaius (i.52) specify that property acquired by a slave is acquired by
his master, imperial slaves, like other servi publici, clearly had
rights of ownership or Ulpian's note that such slaves had the right of
testamenti factio to the amount of half their property (Frag., tit.
20) would make no sense and there would be no inscriptions regarding
servi of Augusti servi. Furthermore, there is ample evidence of
masters permitting slaves to acquire slaves under the legal authority
of the master's dominica potestas in bonis and to retain them after
the "owner's" manumission.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

I would like to say that I see some parallels between the United States' position as a "solo superpower" (that status is of course debatable) and that of Rome in the late Republic. Rome, too, kept getting involved in one foreign war after another through its quest for "national security". Rome ended up getting all the security it ever wished for, but at grim costs to its liberties and institutions. I fear the same thing might end up happening to the United States, where I am proud to live.

Fortunatus <labienus@...> wrote:

> Salve Quinte Cassi
>
>gt; My exact point, honored Consul.nbsp; Nova Roma's purpose is to neither
>gt; promote Americanism nor to promote anti-Americanism it is to promote
>gt; Romanitas.nbsp; If ones agenda is to promote anti-Americanism (there is a
>gt; difference between dissent and anti-Americanism) then it is at least
>gt; in my opinion hypocritical to do so through an organization chartered
>gt; in America.
>
>I agree completely with your second sentence.nbsp; Nova Roma exists purely
>to foster the Religio Romana and Romanitas.nbsp; Your first and third
>sentences, however, are incorrect in my opinion.
>
>I was not making the same point you were.nbsp; And, I do not see it to be at
>all hypocritical to be anti-American and belong to Nova Roma, because
>America is beside Nova Roma's point.nbsp; It has nothing to do with Nova
>Roma's raison d'etre.nbsp; The accident of the location of Nova Roma's
>incorporation is therefore beside the point.
>
>I disagree with you on the grounds of this point of logic and to keep
>Nova Roma's purpose clearly separate from the current hot-button issue,
>and for no other reason.nbsp; I choose to take M Minucius' path with regard
>to my opinions on the US and the current war against Iraq.nbsp; That is,
>there are other, better venues in which to share them.nbsp; I wouldn't have
>commented on this thread, except that it seemed to me that you were
>tying Nova Roma to the US in a way which isn't particularly valid.
>
>Vale
>T Labienus Fortunatus
>--
>quot;Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
>should I do?quot;
>
>
>
>    *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
>
>    
>    ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>    
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

Salvete Romani,
The idea of colonies I think is a good idea. For one thing it will
bring things in NR more in line with the actual historical model of
ancient Roma Imperium, as ir was in their time. If we really wish to
strive for being in line with the actual model to the degree that we
can in these times and days. We should have the process for the
forming of colonies put into the Lex so we can in the future if so
wished. I for think that this should be put into the Lex.
Please excuse the taryness of this post but I have been having
problems with my e-mail server, which have been corrected.
Valete!
NOVA ROMA VICTOR SEMPER EST.
Laurenicus Tarquitius Decimus Magus.

I was wondering if the group would assist me in translating these
latin phrases that I want to know the meaning to before having them
embossed:

1:) Si scientia potens est, ignotus esse invictus esse!
2:) Cvas (or perhps CUAS, my handwriting was bad!) qui nunquam amavit!

I would appreciate any help that you guys are able to give me!

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D. salutem dicit.

The Script, Image and Culture of Writing in the Ancient World
programme at Oxford Univ. has produced a spectacular website on the
Vindolanda tablets at <http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk:8080/>.
Vindolanda was a fort and logistic center immediately south of
Hadrian's Wall; I've been there several times and it is a lovely
location with a first-rate museum of finds from the excavations. The
website sets the standard for web publication of inscriptions and is
brilliantly organized, extremely user-friendly, and simply beautiful
in its presentation of the image of each tablet(with scalable
enlargement available with a mouse-click), and discussion of each
tablet's transcription, its excavation and conservation, its place in
the archaeology of Romano-British tablet finds, the palaeography of
tablet finds generally.If you want to know what Old Roman Cursive
script looks like and get a bit of a tutorial in reading it, or you
are fascinated with Roman Britain, or you yearn to learn more about
life in garrison and in the merchant-peasant communities around the
fort, or, finally, if you are intrigued with a website that
successfully makes contact with both novice and expert, this site's
for you. Enjoy!

Vale, amici mei.

G. Iulius Scaurus
gfr@...
gfrose2000@...

Salve Honored Consul,

I'm going to cut to the chase here and this is between myself and
yourself. There is ONE specific person that I am refering to and
that is Manius Villius "Che" Limitanus. Considering how he's dodged
directly responding to this, he knows exactly what I mean, and if a
few other people were made uncomfortable in the processm then so be
it. I've often asked uncomfortable questions in the past and will
continue to do so in the future.

"Che" Limitanus constantly uses Nova Roma to express and promote his
anti-American and anti-Western Marxist/Socialist revolutionary
philosophy. Not once can I find where he has actually engages in a
discussion about things Roman and just leave it at that. Somehow
some way he eventually turns any issue he becomes involved with into
a discourse on the evils of American and/or Western Capitalist
Imperialism yada yada yada......

I find this completely hypocritical to use an organization that is
corporated in America and about Roman (thus the very foundation of
Western society) to expouse and promote anti-American and Anti-
Western (thus in reality anti-Roman) Marxist/Socialist philosophy.
There are plenty of various forums for such activities. This just,
at least in my opinion, does not happen to be one of them. Even if
tommorow for whatever reason Nova Roma re-incorporated in Canada or
Switzerland, or where ever, Nova Roma would still not be an
appropriate forum for such activity.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

> "Che" Limitanus constantly uses Nova Roma to express and promote his
> anti-American and anti-Western Marxist/Socialist revolutionary
> philosophy.

Good for him! This is a nation where we have free speech, and
where multiple viewpoints can coexist.

I welcome M. Villius and his refreshingly non-Bush-worshipping
viewpoint.

Speaking as a Senator and Director of this corporation, I affirm
that their is nothing in our Constitution, Articles of Incorporation,
or any other bylaws that favors pro-Bush or pro-American viewpoints
over any others.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/

Salve Quinte Cassi

I'm not certain whether you meant to send this to me directly or to the list.
The subject line claims that it is private and you say that "this is between
myself and yourself", but I received it from the Yahoo list and hitting 'Reply'
causes it to be sent there. Therefore, I'm replying to your apparently public
message in an equally public fashion. I hope you don't mind my doing so.

> I'm going to cut to the chase here and this is between myself and
> yourself. There is ONE specific person that I am refering to and
> that is Manius Villius "Che" Limitanus. Considering how he's dodged
> directly responding to this, he knows exactly what I mean, and if a
> few other people were made uncomfortable in the processm then so be
> it. I've often asked uncomfortable questions in the past and will
> continue to do so in the future.

There's nothing wrong with asking uncomfortable questions. Indeed, most
questions worth asking are uncomfortable. However, if your intent is to ask a
question, then it seems that you ought to direct your question to the person
you wish to interrogate, rather than making an oblique statement of opinion to
the crowd.

> "Che" Limitanus constantly uses Nova Roma to express and promote his
> anti-American and anti-Western Marxist/Socialist revolutionary
> philosophy. Not once can I find where he has actually engages in a
> discussion about things Roman and just leave it at that. Somehow
> some way he eventually turns any issue he becomes involved with into
> a discourse on the evils of American and/or Western Capitalist
> Imperialism yada yada yada......

Would you have a problem with him if he constantly used discussions of Roman
things to promote pro-American, Libertarian ideals? There are plenty of people
who have used the Nova Roman forum to do so. Are these people being equally
hypocritical? M' Villius has his opinions, and he is entitled not only to hold
them but also to express them.

> I find this completely hypocritical to use an organization that is
> corporated in America and about Roman (thus the very foundation of
> Western society) to expouse and promote anti-American and Anti-
> Western (thus in reality anti-Roman) Marxist/Socialist philosophy.

I still maintain that the place in which Nova Roma is incorporated is an
absolute non sequitur to the issue. It is not hypocritical on those grounds to
state anti-American opinions in the Nova Roman forum.

The larger issue, i.e. whether the various fundaments of the Roman state were
essentially American and capitalist, whether some kinds of anti-Americanism are
congruous with at least some aspects of ancient Rome, etc. might make an
interesting conversation if it weren't almost certain to devolve quickly into a
rather brutal flame war. The conversation about whether or not Marxism is
inherently anti-Western would also be an interesting one, but it would be only
peripherally related to Rome at best and therefore not particularly appropriate
to this list.

> There are plenty of various forums for such activities. This just,
> at least in my opinion, does not happen to be one of them. Even if
> tommorow for whatever reason Nova Roma re-incorporated in Canada or
> Switzerland, or where ever, Nova Roma would still not be an
> appropriate forum for such activity.

On this, you and I agree. I would also prefer not to have aggressively pro-
American sentiments stated in the Nova Roman forum. Indeed, I would prefer
that modern politics not enter the Nova Roman equation at all. However, this
is not a realistic expectation, as we all see Rome through the filter of our
own modern preconceptions. (I am certainly no exception.)

Vale optime
Fortunatus