In a message dated 3/31/03 6:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
alexious@... writes:

> And, Walk this way by Aerosmith was not a Rap song..til Run DMC covered it
> with Aerosmith and subsequently revived them as a viable Rock group. (back
> in 1985)
>
>

R. DMC would disagree with you. Rap started in Philly. Aerosmith simply
popularized a street "jive" into a song. But the meter was rap.

FABIVS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/03 6:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
>
>
> > And, Walk this way by Aerosmith was not a Rap song..til Run DMC

covered it

> > with Aerosmith and subsequently revived them as a viable Rock

group. (back

> > in 1985)
> >
> >
>
> R. DMC would disagree with you. Rap started in Philly. Aerosmith

simply

> popularized a street "jive" into a song. But the meter was rap.
>

Next time I'm using a Ouija board to download the latest Tupac I'll
ask Jam Master Jay.

Calvus

Ex Officio Praetorium

EDICTVM PRAETORICIVM DE MODERATIONE

The praetores of Nova Roma hereby define the guidelines for
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These guidelines are based on the guidelines previously issued by
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V. It is entirely appropriate to disagree publicly with another's
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Nova Roma is an organization of individuals from a wide variety of
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it is only reasonable that our views should differ.

Please consider the following when expressing disagreement of opposing
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* Express respect for the person and the entitlement to his opinion,
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* Point out any themes in which you do not agree.

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VI. If you feel that a post is inappropriate in any way, consider
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If you would like to talk to us confidentially about a particular
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VII: During the time leading up to elections (held each November and
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IX: Due to the influxes of SPAM and past incidents of posts from
those who wish nothing but to cause disruption and insult to the list,
or particular subscribers of the list, to wit, TROLLS, it has become
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until we are satisfied that such persons are indeed here to celebrate
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unjustifiable reasons. This is unfortunate, but it has proved
necessary.

X: Language Policies

The forum of Roma Antiquita was a large venue, with people of
different languages conversing, a few in this corner, a few in that
corner.
Rome was a very mulicultured place in her glory. Mind you official
information was in Latin, and in some cases Greek, but people were
free to speak informally as they wished in the language of their
choice.
Our constitution mandates freedom of communication provided it is not
dangerous or disruptive.

Currently, the praetores can understand Latin, Spanish, French,
Italian and Portuguese, so messages in those languages are most
welcome. For other languages, help can be obtained from the decuria of
interpreters of Nova Roma.

Thanks to the decuria of interpreters and to several magistrates or
legates who are willing to assist with list moderation, 'informal'
communication in the forum is open to most main languages. Feel free
to post in English, Latin, Italian, Portugese, Spanish, Fench, German,
Russian, Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish or any Slavik language. The
Praetors have many to thank for efforts in this regard.

***Exception: This does not contravene the Lex Cornelia de Linguis
Publicus
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lege/index/html
which stipulates, though comitial mandate, that any offical government
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stating the incident of infarction, and a reminder to review the
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they issue are first reviewed by the Praetors or their designate).
The length of moderation shall be determined by the number of offences
in the past, the severity of the violation, and the intent to violate.
No citizen shall be kept in moderate status for more than 2 (two)
months
without a firm sentence issued by a legal court as described by the
Lex Salicia Iudiciaria:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-11-24-iii.html

(For example: Nobody is going to be placed on moderated status for an
extended time for failure to trim posts or for saying 'me too')



Gnaeus Salix Astur,
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Praetores

LOL interesting....they also claimed that they have never heard of Run DMC before their producer....told them about the song. Rick Rubin was their producer. This is what they stated in Behind the Music, and Ultimate Albums. But, I am not surprised if their story has changed over the years.

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


In a message dated 3/31/03 6:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
alexious@... writes:


> And, Walk this way by Aerosmith was not a Rap song..til Run DMC covered it
> with Aerosmith and subsequently revived them as a viable Rock group. (back
> in 1985)
>
>

R. DMC would disagree with you. Rap started in Philly. Aerosmith simply
popularized a street "jive" into a song. But the meter was rap.

FABIVS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> This is what they stated in Behind the Music...

Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once mentioning the
Dead Kennedys?

TLF

I think that was another documentary...but same channel though. LOL!!

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: labienus@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


> This is what they stated in Behind the Music...

Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once mentioning the
Dead Kennedys?

TLF



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The DK's ruled. I wish a modern metal band would do some covers

-----Original Message-----
From: labienus@... [mailto:labienus@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:27 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:

> This is what they stated in Behind the Music...

Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once mentioning
the
Dead Kennedys?

TLF



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


I think that was another documentary...but same channel though. LOL!!

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: labienus@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


> This is what they stated in Behind the Music...

Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once
mentioning the
Dead Kennedys?

TLF



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---A Roman Invented Rap.....:)

Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) with the
Epigrams, which were lines of poetry expressing an opinion, either
humorous, sarcasms, or some noteworthy feature...don't have a
dictionary handy, but that's the basic meaning if you look it up.

Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:

>
>
> http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
>
>
> I think that was another documentary...but same channel though.

LOL!!

>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: labienus@n...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
>
>
> > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
>
> Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once
> mentioning the
> Dead Kennedys?
>
> TLF
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Service.

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Service.

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---Hey Basicilius.....wanna battle??....Hollah!!

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:

>
>
> http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
>
>
> I think that was another documentary...but same channel though.

LOL!!

>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: labienus@n...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
>
>
> > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
>
> Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once
> mentioning the
> Dead Kennedys?
>
> TLF
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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Service.

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
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Service.

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave!

Well its Marshall. <g> Marshall Mathers to be more precise.

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_cornelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:54 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?


---A Roman Invented Rap.....:)

Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) with the
Epigrams, which were lines of poetry expressing an opinion, either
humorous, sarcasms, or some noteworthy feature...don't have a
dictionary handy, but that's the basic meaning if you look it up.

Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:
>
>
> http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
>
>
> I think that was another documentary...but same channel though.
LOL!!
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: labienus@n...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
>
>
> > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
>
> Was that the series that covered the punk movement without once
> mentioning the
> Dead Kennedys?
>
> TLF
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Service.
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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--Salve Pater :):

Yes. Marshall Mathers, not Martial...whoops!......'or' Marshall
Bruce Mathers III....sounds so formal lol!

I like some of his stuff not all of it.....he's a great lyricist, but
I think he should have kept the Epigrams about his mother away from
the public. Other than that, the man's a master with lyrics and
delivery.

Po


- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:

> Ave!
>
> Well its Marshall. <g> Marshall Mathers to be more precise.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pompeia_cornelia
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:54 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?
>
>
> ---A Roman Invented Rap.....:)
>
> Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) with the
> Epigrams, which were lines of poetry expressing an opinion,

either

> humorous, sarcasms, or some noteworthy feature...don't have a
> dictionary handy, but that's the basic meaning if you look it up.
>
> Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> >
> >
> > I think that was another documentary...but same channel

though.

> LOL!!
> >
> > Sulla
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: labienus@n...
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> >
> >
> > > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
> >
> > Was that the series that covered the punk movement without

once

> > mentioning the
> > Dead Kennedys?
> >
> > TLF
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
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---


Actually, alot of Aerosmith's stuff is rappy.

It's kinda fun to play with words

Pompeia 'takes sharp scissors and snips you sinister synonyms to a
sinful minimal".....(bragging about the line, shamelessly)

Po



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/03 6:36:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> richmal@a... writes:
>
>
> > Ok, way off topic, but the first commercially successful rap song

was

> > done by a white woman.
>
> UH UH. "Walk this way" by Aerosmith (1975) is considered the first

Rap song.

>
> I know because Run DMC later covered it, and I worked on that music

video.

>
> Fabivs
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave!

But he did that on purpose...controversy....every time his name is on the news he sells another 100K records....LOL!! There is no such thing as bad publicity.....or as one of my favorite authors states:

"If you accuse an actor or entertianer of drunkness, drug addiction, etc, it only means you read their biography." (Paraphrased from PJ O'Rourke)

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: metamorphosis2003
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:01 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?


--Salve Pater :):

Yes. Marshall Mathers, not Martial...whoops!......'or' Marshall
Bruce Mathers III....sounds so formal lol!

I like some of his stuff not all of it.....he's a great lyricist, but
I think he should have kept the Epigrams about his mother away from
the public. Other than that, the man's a master with lyrics and
delivery.

Po


- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> Well its Marshall. <g> Marshall Mathers to be more precise.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pompeia_cornelia
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:54 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?
>
>
> ---A Roman Invented Rap.....:)
>
> Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) with the
> Epigrams, which were lines of poetry expressing an opinion,
either
> humorous, sarcasms, or some noteworthy feature...don't have a
> dictionary handy, but that's the basic meaning if you look it up.
>
> Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> >
> >
> > I think that was another documentary...but same channel
though.
> LOL!!
> >
> > Sulla
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: labienus@n...
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> >
> >
> > > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
> >
> > Was that the series that covered the punk movement without
once
> > mentioning the
> > Dead Kennedys?
> >
> > TLF
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
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> >
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Imperium Romanorum" website of Prof. Clifton R.
Fox (Tomball College):

http://wwwtc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us/people/crf01/rome/

Among the more interesting features of the website are fasti of the
Censores from 280 B.C.E. to 28 B.C.E., fasti of the Consules Ordinarii
from 300 B.C.E. through 68 C.E., a listing of all the emperors from
Augustus to the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, and a genealogy
of the Julio-Claudians (although that genealogy isn't well presented
or particularly easy to interpret given its format).

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

hmmm... if I remember the song you're talking about, it definately doesn't
fall into the rap category by today's standards.

--On Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:01 AM -0500 qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/03 6:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> alexious@... writes:
>
>
>> And, Walk this way by Aerosmith was not a Rap song..til Run DMC covered
>> it with Aerosmith and subsequently revived them as a viable Rock group.
>> (back in 1985)
>>
>>
>
> R. DMC would disagree with you. Rap started in Philly. Aerosmith simply
> popularized a street "jive" into a song. But the meter was rap.
>
> FABIVS
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I agree.

And, Rap started in Queens, NY too. :) Thats where it all started....It quickly spread to other NY suburbs like South Bronx (from the BDP rap of the same name).

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: Hedea Bianchia Dryantilla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


hmmm... if I remember the song you're talking about, it definately doesn't
fall into the rap category by today's standards.

--On Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:01 AM -0500 qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/03 6:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> alexious@... writes:
>
>
>> And, Walk this way by Aerosmith was not a Rap song..til Run DMC covered
>> it with Aerosmith and subsequently revived them as a viable Rock group.
>> (back in 1985)
>>
>>
>
> R. DMC would disagree with you. Rap started in Philly. Aerosmith simply
> popularized a street "jive" into a song. But the meter was rap.
>
> FABIVS
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---Ave

You're right Pater. It's just that I thought it was a cheap shot.
Not that I'm saying his mother's lilly pure, but yunno, telling the
whole world your rotten personal appraisal , is, to me, a cheap shot.

Po

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:

> Ave!
>
> But he did that on purpose...controversy....every time his name is

on the news he sells another 100K records....LOL!! There is no such
thing as bad publicity.....or as one of my favorite authors states:

>
> "If you accuse an actor or entertianer of drunkness, drug

addiction, etc, it only means you read their biography." (Paraphrased
from PJ O'Rourke)

>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: metamorphosis2003
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:01 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?
>
>
> --Salve Pater :):
>
> Yes. Marshall Mathers, not Martial...whoops!......'or' Marshall
> Bruce Mathers III....sounds so formal lol!
>
> I like some of his stuff not all of it.....he's a great lyricist,

but

> I think he should have kept the Epigrams about his mother away

from

> the public. Other than that, the man's a master with lyrics and
> delivery.
>
> Po
>
>
> - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"

<alexious@e...>

> wrote:
> > Ave!
> >
> > Well its Marshall. <g> Marshall Mathers to be more precise.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: pompeia_cornelia
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:54 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?
> >
> >
> > ---A Roman Invented Rap.....:)
> >
> > Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) with

the

> > Epigrams, which were lines of poetry expressing an opinion,
> either
> > humorous, sarcasms, or some noteworthy feature...don't have a
> > dictionary handy, but that's the basic meaning if you look it

up.

> >
> > Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)
> >
> > Pompeia
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...>

wrote:

> > >
> > >
> > > http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> > >
> > >
> > > I think that was another documentary...but same channel
> though.
> > LOL!!
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: labienus@n...
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> > >
> > >
> > > > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
> > >
> > > Was that the series that covered the punk movement

without

> once
> > > mentioning the
> > > Dead Kennedys?
> > >
> > > TLF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of

> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> > >
> > >
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> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms

of

> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Service.

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator Sulla.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:

> Ave,
>
> Do you really have to spam every list? You might be better served
> just emailing all citizens individually. This way some citizens
> will not get 10 copies of the same email.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla

Unfortunately, this is the only way I know to contact a wide part of
our population. If I could e-mail each citizen directly, I certainly
would, and thus I would avoid all these unnecessary repetitions.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Yep, I agree it is a cheap shot. But it was very lucrative for him to make those cheap shots. (and probably for his mom too, since she ended up suing him).

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_cornelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:54 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?


---Ave

You're right Pater. It's just that I thought it was a cheap shot.
Not that I'm saying his mother's lilly pure, but yunno, telling the
whole world your rotten personal appraisal , is, to me, a cheap shot.

Po

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> But he did that on purpose...controversy....every time his name is
on the news he sells another 100K records....LOL!! There is no such
thing as bad publicity.....or as one of my favorite authors states:
>
> "If you accuse an actor or entertianer of drunkness, drug
addiction, etc, it only means you read their biography." (Paraphrased
from PJ O'Rourke)
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: metamorphosis2003
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:01 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?
>
>
> --Salve Pater :):
>
> Yes. Marshall Mathers, not Martial...whoops!......'or' Marshall
> Bruce Mathers III....sounds so formal lol!
>
> I like some of his stuff not all of it.....he's a great lyricist,
but
> I think he should have kept the Epigrams about his mother away
from
> the public. Other than that, the man's a master with lyrics and
> delivery.
>
> Po
>
>
> - In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave!
> >
> > Well its Marshall. <g> Marshall Mathers to be more precise.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: pompeia_cornelia
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:54 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Did a White Iowan Invent Rap Music?
> >
> >
> > ---A Roman Invented Rap.....:)
> >
> > Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) with
the
> > Epigrams, which were lines of poetry expressing an opinion,
> either
> > humorous, sarcasms, or some noteworthy feature...don't have a
> > dictionary handy, but that's the basic meaning if you look it
up.
> >
> > Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)
> >
> > Pompeia
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://slate.msn.com/id/1003170/
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@e...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:26 AM
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> > >
> > >
> > > I think that was another documentary...but same channel
> though.
> > LOL!!
> > >
> > > Sulla
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: labienus@n...
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
> > >
> > >
> > > > This is what they stated in Behind the Music...
> > >
> > > Was that the series that covered the punk movement
without
> once
> > > mentioning the
> > > Dead Kennedys?
> > >
> > > TLF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can, its easy, just a bit time consuming. Just go to the Album Civium and click on each member individually and click the send mail button...and copy and paste your text in and they are emailed.

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Basic Course about Nova Roma at the Academia


Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator Sulla.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Do you really have to spam every list? You might be better served
> just emailing all citizens individually. This way some citizens
> will not get 10 copies of the same email.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla

Unfortunately, this is the only way I know to contact a wide part of
our population. If I could e-mail each citizen directly, I certainly
would, and thus I would avoid all these unnecessary repetitions.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll do mass-mailings to any requested and easily-identified group of citizens
(such as "all plebeians" or "all assidui in Hispania") upon request from a
Censor, Consul, Praetor, Tribune, any provincial governor mailing to his own
province, or other magistrates if approved by a senior magistrate.

Vale, Octavius.

> You can, its easy, just a bit time consuming. Just go to the Album Civium and click on each member individually and click the send mail button...and copy and paste your text in and they are emailed.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:55 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Basic Course about Nova Roma at the Academia
>
>
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator Sulla.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > Do you really have to spam every list? You might be better served
> > just emailing all citizens individually. This way some citizens
> > will not get 10 copies of the same email.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sulla
>
> Unfortunately, this is the only way I know to contact a wide part of
> our population. If I could e-mail each citizen directly, I certainly
> would, and thus I would avoid all these unnecessary repetitions.
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/

In a message dated 4/1/03 9:25:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hedeabianchia@... writes:

> hmmm... if I remember the song you're talking about, it definately doesn't
> fall into the rap category by today's standards.
>
>

You answered your own question. "By today's standards." Like RnR rap
evolved into several sub genres. The rap we hear today is mostly inspired by
"Out of Compton."
The Philly style is not used as much, though you hear it occasionally. The
theme from "Fastlane" for an example.
Right now I'm involved in producing a haircut band, with an '80s sound. We
will see if music is about to go retro again.

--Fabivs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites; et salve, censor Octavi Germanice.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:

>
> I'll do mass-mailings to any requested and easily-identified group
> of citizens (such as "all plebeians" or "all assidui in Hispania")
> upon request from a Censor, Consul, Praetor, Tribune, any
> provincial governor mailing to his own province, or other
> magistrates if approved by a senior magistrate.
>
> Vale, Octavius.

Thank you, censor.

However, I guess that I will not be a magistrate forever, and I might
very well need to broadcast Academia announcements in the future.

If any of you feels offended by those mails, you have my permission
to erase them without a second thought :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

> Right now I'm involved in producing a haircut band, with an '80s

sound. We

> will see if music is about to go retro again.
>
> --Fabivs

Why not? Music tends to be cyclical in its evolution. Bob Marley
was singing about killing cops with "I Shot the Sheriff" (which
Clapton cashed in by covering) 18 years before Ice-T/NWA's
controversial "Cop Killer." Another trend in music, black guys
invent it and then "whitey" comes along and cashes in on it.
Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice.... Eminem.....

Calvus

-----Original Message-----
From : pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@...>

>
>Uncanny, because Eminem's real name is Martial :)
>

Akchuly you got a point. I /was/ going to say that rap unrecorded must go back to way back when, maybe even to just the kind of accent you get in the West Indies and as well, any recordings/memories of Mohammed Ali-Cassius Clay, if that isn't [a damn side better than rap] what is?
BUT, I do recall hearing a reading of Yevtoshenko. I don't understand Russian but it did occur to me that with their immense conservatism and archaic formed language they probably come closest to the ancient poetry based on long and short syllables. And as well as the stresses, rap depends a lot on the actual length of its syllables, so it might very well have been recognisable to Catullus and Sappho.

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Citizens!

In this moment we have several proposals for the praesina symbol and
one for the veneta. But there aren´t proposals for the flag or symbol
of the albata and the russata.
Please, reds and whites, your factiones need "coats of arms" or... do
you want to continue in the races without a proud flag as the next
one of the greens or blues? ;-)

Look the basis below and create a nice and good symbol for your color.


The Factiones Symbols Contest.

1. Create yours designs on symbols for the factiones and send to
piteas@.... The deadline is 1st April.

2. You can do logos for every factio or only a design for one. The
files can be gif, jpg, bmp or png in higher resolution.

3. All the designs will be showed in the "files" archive of every
factio mailing list during the Ludi Mergalesia (4-10 April) in order
that the members vote the best design for their loved color. In case
of tie, the vote of the Domini will have double value.

The links to the factiones mailing lists are:

Albata: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factio_albata/
Russata: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/russata/
Veneta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factioveneta/
Praesina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/

4. The elections of each factio symbol will be only in the mailing
list of each factio.

5. The four more voted symbols will be the official symbols of every
factio of the circus.

6. The authors of the winning designs will be nominated honor members
of the factiones by their Domini.


Salix Galaicus
Caput officinae ludorum

Salve Plebeian citizen!



This is just a friendly reminder that the fourth run-off election for the 1(one)

vacant office of Tribunus Plebis is currently in progress! Voting will

continue until Friday April 4th, 18:01 Roman Time, but why wait? Vote now by

going to http://www.novaroma.org and clicking 'VOTE NOW' !



If you don't remember your voter code or are a new citizen, no problem. You

can have your voter code automatically mailed to you by doing the following:

Go to http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/gentes Find the name of your gens

(they are listed alphabetically). Two columns to the right of your Gens

name, click on the 'number of cives'. A new page opens that contains a

listing of all the citizens in your Gens. Find your name and click on the

link. On the new page you'll see a box which contains information about you.

Click on "Get voter code". On the new page, enter your year of birth and

click 'request voter code'. Your voter code will be emailed to you. Once you

have your voter code, go to http://www.novaroma.org and click 'VOTE NOW'.



Thank you for your participation in this election!



Vale,

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus


Tribunus Plebis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave

"Another trend in music, black guys invent it and then "whitey" comes along
and cashes in on it. Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice.... Eminem....."

I take issue with that statement. Modern American music is a combination, a
melting pot, if you will, of different musical styles. Blacks didn't
"invent" jazz, or rock and roll, or rap. The instruments, musical styles and
theories are Western in origin. Saying whitey stole rock and roll from
blackey is about as valid as saying blackie stole the guitar, the half note,
or 4/4 from whitey. As you know, I'm strongly against class divisions, and I
likewise oppose any statements that advance racial division. Jazz, rock, and
rap are uniquely American music that no one person or race can take sole
credit for, and were created by fortuitious meetings of people, places and
times. Likewise, many foriegn artists took jazz to a level never imagined by
their forerunners. Django Rhinehardt and Stephan Grappelli come to mind.

GB Agricola


-----Original Message-----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus [mailto:richmal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:21 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

> Right now I'm involved in producing a haircut band, with an '80s
sound. We
> will see if music is about to go retro again.
>
> --Fabivs

Why not? Music tends to be cyclical in its evolution. Bob Marley
was singing about killing cops with "I Shot the Sheriff" (which
Clapton cashed in by covering) 18 years before Ice-T/NWA's
controversial "Cop Killer." Another trend in music, black guys
invent it and then "whitey" comes along and cashes in on it.
Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice.... Eminem.....

Calvus


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LOL Well Little Richard will say that Pat Boone sure cashed in on Tootie Fruiti back in the 1950's.

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: jlasalle
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:



Ave

"Another trend in music, black guys invent it and then "whitey" comes along
and cashes in on it. Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice.... Eminem....."

I take issue with that statement. Modern American music is a combination, a
melting pot, if you will, of different musical styles. Blacks didn't
"invent" jazz, or rock and roll, or rap. The instruments, musical styles and
theories are Western in origin. Saying whitey stole rock and roll from
blackey is about as valid as saying blackie stole the guitar, the half note,
or 4/4 from whitey. As you know, I'm strongly against class divisions, and I
likewise oppose any statements that advance racial division. Jazz, rock, and
rap are uniquely American music that no one person or race can take sole
credit for, and were created by fortuitious meetings of people, places and
times. Likewise, many foriegn artists took jazz to a level never imagined by
their forerunners. Django Rhinehardt and Stephan Grappelli come to mind.

GB Agricola


-----Original Message-----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus [mailto:richmal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:21 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

> Right now I'm involved in producing a haircut band, with an '80s
sound. We
> will see if music is about to go retro again.
>
> --Fabivs

Why not? Music tends to be cyclical in its evolution. Bob Marley
was singing about killing cops with "I Shot the Sheriff" (which
Clapton cashed in by covering) 18 years before Ice-T/NWA's
controversial "Cop Killer." Another trend in music, black guys
invent it and then "whitey" comes along and cashes in on it.
Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice.... Eminem.....

Calvus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:

>
> Ave
>
> "Another trend in music, black guys invent it and then "whitey"

comes along

> and cashes in on it. Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice....

Eminem....."

>
> I take issue with that statement. Modern American music is a

combination, a

> melting pot, if you will, of different musical styles. Blacks didn't
> "invent" jazz, or rock and roll, or rap.

<snipped>
As you know, I'm strongly against class divisions, and I

> likewise oppose any statements that advance racial division.

Ave,

Chill. Like it or not when one looks at American (USA) music history
there is a distinct trend of African American musicians being way
ahead of their white counterparts in terms of experimentation and
innovation. If you want to know what's going to be cutting edge in 3-
5 years go see what up and coming African American musicians are
doing today. Even the quinsintential wonder bread white "country
music" has its roots in African American music. If there were never
a Jimmi Hendrix there would be no Ozzy. OK some who are Osbourned to
death may argue that would be a good thing....

Vale,

Calvus

In a message dated 4/1/03 6:52:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, richmal@...
writes:

> . If there were never
> a Jimmi Hendrix there would be no Ozzy. OK some who are Osbourned to
> death may argue that would be a good thing....
>

If there was no Muddy Waters no Jimmy Page,
No Robert Johnson, no Eric Clapton.
No Chicago "Slim" Jim, no David Gilmore.
Tony Iommi was the guitarist of Sabbath, BTW, Ozzy was the chanter.

Fabivs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to Dr. Ingo Maier's website on the Notitia Dignatatum:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~igmaier/notitia.htm

The Notitia Dignitatum is a list of the titles, offices, insignia, and
locations of imperial administrative officers and military commanders,
compiled (or, perhaps, last redacted) between 395 and 425 C.E. (there
is persuasive evidence that the accounts of the western and eastern
portions of the empire were not compiled at the same time). The
website includes links to virtually everything about the Notitia
Dignitatum on the net (including a number of editions and
translations), an extraordinary bibliography of the scholarly
literature (including note of cases where a relevant book or journal
article is available online), and an article attempting to identify
the archetype of the cognates of the Codex Spirensis. Students of
later imperial administrative or military history will find Dr.
Maier's website a valuable resource.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Ave

I am always frosty, brother. However, its not a matter of liking it or not.
The statement is simply not true. Being way ahead doesn't divorce you of
your surroundings. I doubt Africans would have ever developed jazz or rock
and roll if left to their own devices on the sub-continent. They didn't have
guitars, saxaphones, banjos violins etc etc. Didn't look like they ever
going to develop them. And I doubt "whitey" would have developed rock or
jazz if left to their own devices, either. Thats it.

GB Agricola

-----Original Message-----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus [mailto:richmal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:35 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "jlasalle" <jlasalle@s...> wrote:
>
> Ave
>
> "Another trend in music, black guys invent it and then "whitey"
comes along
> and cashes in on it. Elvis.... Clapton.... Vanilla Ice....
Eminem....."
>
> I take issue with that statement. Modern American music is a
combination, a
> melting pot, if you will, of different musical styles. Blacks didn't
> "invent" jazz, or rock and roll, or rap.
<snipped>
As you know, I'm strongly against class divisions, and I
> likewise oppose any statements that advance racial division.

Ave,

Chill. Like it or not when one looks at American (USA) music history
there is a distinct trend of African American musicians being way
ahead of their white counterparts in terms of experimentation and
innovation. If you want to know what's going to be cutting edge in 3-
5 years go see what up and coming African American musicians are
doing today. Even the quinsintential wonder bread white "country
music" has its roots in African American music. If there were never
a Jimmi Hendrix there would be no Ozzy. OK some who are Osbourned to
death may argue that would be a good thing....

Vale,

Calvus




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

The newest issue of the Roman Times is now available at:

http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/index.html
(choose "Roman Times" from the navigation bar.)

If you would like to contribute to a future issue, please contact me
as soon as possible.

vale bene,
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

Salvete Quirites!

I am sorry, but my internet access has been cut of for two days. I am
starting to catch up now and expect to be back as usual about Friday
night.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

-----Original Message-----
From : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>

>music“ has its roots in African American music. If there were never
>a Jimmi Hendrix there would be no Ozzy. OK some who are Osbourned to
>death may argue that would be a good thing....
>

Well there would be because Ozzy was around before Marley was ever heard of. And just when did the Kingstown Wailer become and American? Hendrix was Jamaican!

Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is it me or did you quote an incorrect passage? The quote you quoted was about Jimmi Hendrix not Bob Marley. Two very gifted and talented musicians but both are very different in musical styles.

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@...
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


-----Original Message-----
From : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>

>music" has its roots in African American music. If there were never
>a Jimmi Hendrix there would be no Ozzy. OK some who are Osbourned to
>death may argue that would be a good thing....
>
Well there would be because Ozzy was around before Marley was ever heard of. And just when did the Kingstown Wailer become and American? Hendrix was Jamaican!

Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve

> Well there would be because Ozzy was around before Marley was ever heard of.
> And just when did the Kingstown Wailer become and American? Hendrix was
> Jamaican!

Um, Jimi Hendrix was born in Seattle. I think you've confused two different
artists, Bob Marley and Jimi Hendrix.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

-----Original Message-----
From : “L. Cornelius Sulla“ <alexious@...>
Subject : Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
Is it me or did you quote an incorrect passage? The quote you quoted was about Jimmi Hendrix not Bob Marley. Two very gifted and talented musicians but both are very different in musical styles.

>

Quite right. For reasons only Dr Freud might understand, I read one and saw the other! Sorry!

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From : jlasalle <jlasalle@...>

>and roll if left to their own devices on the sub-continent. They didn't have
>guitars, saxaphones, banjos violins etc etc. Didn't look like they ever
>going to develop them. And I doubt ýwhiteyý would have developed rock or
>jazz if left to their own devices, either. Thats it.
>

Neither of that is entirely true. There's some jazz-like stuff in some folk embellishment and Klesma and the Banjo appears to descend from an African instrument. They do have twangy metal things eupemistically called Thumb Piano in the East but I don't know if that went West without whiteskin help. A lot of those Western slave countries are part Muslim - that's where Europeans started buying their slaves - so they have Arab and Mediterranean inspired music but further South the real thing is all rhythm. African music is trendy right now, Yousou N'Dour the Big Name but I can't say I like it or Arab in that sort of genre half as much as Indian.

Caesariensis.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave

Thats very interesting. And it goes to what I'm saying, its all connected.

Agricola

-----Original Message-----
From: me-in-@... [mailto:me-in-@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:05 PM
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:


-----Original Message-----
From : jlasalle <jlasalle@...>

>and roll if left to their own devices on the sub-continent. They didn't

have

>guitars, saxaphones, banjos violins etc etc. Didn't look like they ever
>going to develop them. And I doubt ýwhiteyý would have developed rock or
>jazz if left to their own devices, either. Thats it.
>

Neither of that is entirely true. There's some jazz-like stuff in some
folk embellishment and Klesma and the Banjo appears to descend from an
African instrument. They do have twangy metal things eupemistically called
Thumb Piano in the East but I don't know if that went West without whiteskin
help. A lot of those Western slave countries are part Muslim - that's where
Europeans started buying their slaves - so they have Arab and Mediterranean
inspired music but further South the real thing is all rhythm. African music
is trendy right now, Yousou N'Dour the Big Name but I can't say I like it or
Arab in that sort of genre half as much as Indian.

Caesariensis.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Tribunus Plebis Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius Quiritibus SPD

Senate Voting Results published 2 April 2756.

The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been tallied as below.

The following 13 Senators cast votes in time. They are referred to below by their initials, and are listed in alphabetical order by nomen:


Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (CFQ)
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (LPO)
Caius Flavius Diocletianus (CFD)
Gnaeus Salix Astur (GSA)
Marcus Octavius Germanicus (MOG)
Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus (LSAO)
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (DIPI)
Titus Labienus Fortunatus (TLF)
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus (LEC)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla (LCS)
Quintus Fabius Maximus (QFM)
Lucius Sicinius Drusus (LSD)
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato (ATMC)


The following 7 Senators did not cast a vote [and his absence was not announced or justified in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2001-07-18-vii.html) and the LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-iv.html) which this Tribune reads in conjunction]:

- Gaius Marius Merullus (CMM)
- Marcus Arminius Maior (MAM)
- Marcus Cassius Julianus (MCJ)
- Patricia Cassia (PC)
- Antonius Gryllus Graecus (AGG)
- Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonicus (AICPM)
- Marcus Minucius Audens (MMA)

The necessary majority for a Senatus consultum therefore was 11 votes in favor.

"UTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item, "ANTIQUO" or "NEGAT" is a vote against, and "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention. Square Brackets [ ] indicate explanations by the reporting Tribune.


The items for consideration were as follows:


Item I

Aedilian Fund [8 in favor - 3 opposing - 2 abstention / Didn't achieve enough votes for passing.]

I have been asked by the two Curule Aediles to propose the following
Senatus Consultum. The Curile Aediles of last year already founded a
fund. according to their tasks in the Constitution. This years Curule
Aediles are convinced that they would like to formalize a new routine
according to the proposal for a Senatus Consultum below.

************
Senatus Consultum about the Aedilian Fund

I. An Aedilian Fund for donations in favour of the projects handled
by the Aediles Curules is hereby established. This fund will be
maintained as part of the Nova Roma bank account, rather than in a
separate account, because of the following advantages:

a.The donors can be sure that their money is kept in a safe place and
that it will not be kept by the magistrate.
b.People can use money orders and the Nova Roma PayPal account to
make donations in the same way as they pay taxes or make any other
donation to Nova Roma.
c.It will not be necessary to transfer funds to the country in which
the current Aediles Curules live.
d. U.S. residents will have the opportunity to deduct donations on
their taxes. This wouldn't be possible if the bank account was
outside USA.

II. Money contained in the Aedilian Fund can be used only for the
purpose to which they have been expressely donated. As a consequence,
there is no need for the Senate to vote their allocation, as it is
the will of the donors that those funds be spent for specific
projects as defined by the Aediles Curules.

III. The Aedilian Fund is under the Aediles Curules' responsibility.
A detailed record of all donations and their destinations will be
kept by the Quaestores assigned to the Aediles Curules. The
Quaestores will also provide the Consules with a report on the merger
of Lusitania Provincia and Hispania Provincia into one new Provincia
called Hispania Provincia Aedilian Fund to be attached to the
national budget of Nova Roma.

****************


Item II [Passed with 13 in favour - 0 opposing - 0 abstention ]

The Governor of Pannonia Provincia:

I propose that the Senatus appoint Gaius Marcius Coriolanus as
Propraetor of Pannonia Provincia.

CFQ: VTI ROGAS Comments of CFQ: I would glad to see such a competent Propraetor as Gaius Marcius Coriolanus back in the Governor's seat.
LPO: VTI ROGAS
CFD: VTI ROGAS. He shall be prorogued, right? I´m happy to see my friend Coriolanus going into another period of office. Uti Rogas
GSA: VTI ROGAS
MOG: VTI ROGAS
LSAO: VTI ROGAS
DIPI: VTI ROGAS
TLF: VTI ROGAS
LEC: VTI ROGAS
LCS: VTI ROGAS
QFM: VTI ROGAS
LSD: VTI ROGAS
ATMC: VTI ROGAS


Item III [0 in favour - 4 against - 1 abstain - 8 didn't vote]

A new provisional Governor of Mexico Provincia

Gnaeus Salix Astur have been mentioned and have accepted to candidate
when asked.

Item were WITHDRAWN but some Senators casted Votes.


Tribunus Comentarii: A Diplomatic Legate was the solution proposed for this issue instead of a Propraetor. May the Senate find the best solution for a Province like Mexico.

Item IV [ Passed 12 in favour - 0 against - 1 abstain]

A new Governor instead of Remesa Debrasca for Canada Occidentalis Provincia

I propose Honorable Quintus Sertorius as Propraetor of Canada
Occidentalis Provincia.


CFQ: VTI ROGAS Comments of CFQ: I am glad to have Quintus Sertorius back as Propraetor
LPO: VTI ROGAS
CFD: VTI ROGAS
GSA: VTI ROGAS
MOG: VTI ROGAS. Good to see him back with us.
LSAO: VTI ROGAS
DIPI: VTI ROGAS. I am glad to see Quintus Sertorius back and able to serve. He will do well
TLF: VTI ROGAS. It's good to have Q Sertorius back
LEC: ABSTINEO
LCS: VTI ROGAS
QFM: VTI ROGAS. Glad to see him back here in the Republic
LSD: VTI ROGAS. If Quintus Sertorius does half as good a job as he did in the past, he will still be one our best Provincial Praetors
ATMC: VTI ROGAS. I am familiar with the Honorable Quintus Sertorius from communications in the past, and I believe that he is more than qualified for the position and would make an
excellent Propraetor.


Item V [Passed 13 in favour - 0 against - 0 abstain]

A new Governor instead of Pontius Sejanus Marius for America Austroccidentalis Provincia

I propose Honorable Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus as Propraetor of America Austroccidentalis Provincia

CFQ: VTI ROGAS. Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus has been a magistrate before and I am sure that he as a long-time citizen will become a good Propraetor
LPO: VTI ROGAS
CFD: VTI ROGAS
GSA: VTI ROGAS
MOG: VTI ROGAS. G. Africanus Secundus has been willing to serve for years, and I'm pleased to see him get this position.
LSAO: VTI ROGAS
DIPI: VTI ROGAS
TLF: VTI ROGAS. I sincerely hope he can breathe some life back into my home provincia.

LEC: VTI ROGAS
LCS: VTI ROGAS
QFM: VTI ROGAS. Good man, he has worked hard for this honor
LSD: VTI ROGAS
ATMC: VTI ROGAS


Item VI.

The Eagle subscription fee (20$-30$) [Passed 12 in favour - 0 against - 0 abstain]

The Curator Differum have asked for a higher Eagle subscription fee (not rate ;-) ), which he would be able to set within reasonable limits. I think that this is a very reasonable request.

I propose that Senate give the Curator Differum the right to set a
subscription fee for one year for the Eagle between $20 to $30.


CFQ: VTI ROGAS. Comments of CFQ: I am sure that the Curator Differum will use every cent with care and not set it higher than needed
LPO: VTI ROGAS
CFD: VTI ROGAS. The eagle issue sent to me was very impressive. Professionally edited, with a fine layout and partly coloured. It is worth the fee requested.
GSA: VTI ROGAS
MOG: VTI ROGAS. He's doing a fine job and should be encouraged to keep up the high quality.

LSAO: VTI ROGAS. Comment: I received a new edition of the Eagle this week. It was very well done and worth such a subscription fee. I would not want to see it reduced to a black & white pamphlet by budgetary constraints. It may be that the citizens will not support it, but I think we should try.

DIPI: VTI ROGAS. I agree with Fabius and Cincinnatus, this is too high a range for a newsletter. However, I am willing to let him set the rate and convince subscribers of the value. he might well suceed.
TLF: VTI ROGAS. I'm fairly impressed with what Tiberius Galerius has done with the Eagle so far, and I am therefore willing to give him the leeway necessary for him to test his ideas about how it should be marketed and produced.

LEC: ANTIQVO. As I stated in the discussion, "There is no reason to charge $20 to $30 for a monthly newsletter that needn't be more than 8 pages in black and white. Legio XX has a $5 per year membership fee which includes the 'ADLOCVTIO' newsletter if the twentieth Legio, which is also available online. http://www.larp.com/legioxx/adloc.html " The original Eagle produced by 'Flavia Claudia Iuliana', now Vespasia Pollia Iuliana, was quite good. I have saved every copy of the Eagle since the very first one and I consider her work the best with all due respect to the others who have held that position. I believe that publishing is/was her vocation and she was a professional in every way. In fact she produced multi color edition at no extra costs, although this may have been with the assistance of Marcus Cassius' print shop.

LCS: VTI ROGAS. I have no problem with this as long as he does not seek these funds retroactively from those subscribers who already have paid their subscriptions. We have a duty to provide the same level of quality and service to those who have already paid without retroactively charging them. Besides, there could be legal issues, if the subscribers are retroactively charged.
QFM: VTI ROGAS. The Curator Differum has the right to save the Eagle anyway that he can. That was why he has the post. We must allow every opportunity for he to do so.

LSD: VTI ROGAS. However I am worried that this will place the Eagle beyond the means of many citizens living outside the USA. This is up to two and a half times the tax rate that we indexed for that reason. The Eagle is morphing from a Newsletter into a full fledged magizine, so we may want to consider starting a seperate publication that will serve as a low cost newsletter for citizens who can't afford the higher Eagle prices.

ATMC: VTI ROGAS


Item VII. [Passed 13 in favour - 0 against - 0 abstain]

The merger of Lusitania Provincia and Hispania Provincia into one new
Provincia called Hispania Provincia. This merger will be done
according to the agreement below:

*************
LM LAIETANVS SENATO NOVAROMAE SPD

Salvete Patres et Conscripti.

I've been appointed by honorable Antonius Gryllus Graecus, as
Propraetor of Lusitania, and honorable Caius Iulius Barcinus, as
Propraetor of Hispania to transmit and to submit you our common wish
of union into one and only Novaroman Provincia attending to our
historical roman past.

The idea of a possible union with Lusitania has been suggested in
several occasions for different citizens since the start of the
administrative provincial organization in Hispania more than a year
ago. In the very early debates it became clear how difficult it was
to make any historical reference to the roman Hispania without
including Lusitania.

Illustrious Gryllus, our Pontifex and Propraetor of Lusitania has
been member of Hispania provincial list since we started on and I
must say this has been a great honor for all and that everyone has
always been watchful to his wise and helpful messages.

About three or four months ago, during my propraetorship, my Legatus
Externis Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius exposed to me and to the
provincial Curia his intention to start working with Propraetor
Gryllus in order to seriously study the chances for a future union
and he got then all our support. During this time he punctually
informed us about the negotiation advances and specially about the
positive reaction of Propraetor Gryllus and the common interest on
this matter both for Lusitania and Hispania. The union proposal was
also debated in the provincial list and a formal declaration in
favour was voted in the Hispania provincial Curia. The support from
the citizens was unanimous.

Since both parts have yet reached to an agreement on the terms of a
possible future union and would like to advance in this way, time has
come to ask for your support and to submit to your approval our
common project.

Vale
L.M. Laietanus

Here are the submitted terms of our agreement:

I- The present novaroman provinces of Lusitania and Hispania firmly
expose their wish of union into one and only novaroman provincia
under the historical common name of Hispania.

II- Within the new Provincia and attending the present linguistic
plurality, its asked equal respect for those citizens who may use
Portuguese or Spanish. However, ours will keep being an open
community which can use any language for its free expression.

III- For those citizens who can't speak Portuguese or Spanish a
Scriba Linguae Lusitanae will be provided in order to help all the
citizens. His duties will be:
A translation of any text asked by the citizens, written either in
Spanish or Portuguese, into the language asked by the citizen.
A translation of the Provincial web-page and articles.
A translation of all the Legal documents of the Province.

IV-The Province will be administrate by a single Propraetor appointed
by the Senate of Novaroma. By this agreement Antonius Gryllus
Graecus, proparetor of Lusitania, renounces to the propraetorship in
favour of Caius Iulius Barcinus, actual propraetor of Hispania. At
the same time Caius Iulius Barcinus publicy express his commitment
with the internal provincial regulations concerning with the annual
renewal of the provincial governor in favour of the candidate
elected by the citizens which will be submitted to the Senate of Nova
Roma at the legal time next year.

V- The present administrative structure, procedures and regulations
of the actual Hispania, based on the plural participation and
continuous improvement will be the base for the future common
development.

VI- To improve the meetings between all the citizens of the Province,
Local Chapters will be created in order to show the reality of the
citizenship geographical distribution. As far as it is possible, the
reference will be the Conventus system (Lusitania, Gallaecia,
Tarraconensis and Carthaginensis).

VII- With the Constitutio of this Province we try to erase the
administrative barriers of our nowadays States, getting back the
Romanitas historical and cultural unity. So the wish of this union is
to be lasting in time for a better achievement of the Nova Roma
purposes and all the Iberian Peninsula. It doesn't mean that we deny
the real world but we have our sight put on further and better times.

VIII. In case that this agreement gets the approval of the Senate, as
we expect to, the union will officially go into effect from next
Kalendas Maias, MMDCCLVI auc

The terms of this agreement have been yet submitted to the following
magistrates which completely agree and fully support them:

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Consul
Titus Labienus Fortunatus, Consul
Antonius Gryllus Graecus, Propraetor of Lusitania
Caius Iulius Barcinus, Propraetor of Hispania
Gnaeus Salix Astur, Senator
Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius, Tribunus
********************************

CFQ: VTI ROGAS. CFQ Comments: The active citizens of the future Provincia have "said" this change is needed, they have my support!

LPO: VTI ROGAS
CFD: VTI ROGAS. Both current governors agreed upon this merger, and it is historical
GSA: VTI ROGAS
MOG: VTI ROGAS. Propraetor Antonius Gryllus has explained the reasons for this, and they are compelling
LSAO: VTI ROGAS. Comment: Questions of historicity aside, the willingness of the citizens in these two provinces to work together to advance the purposes of Nova Roma makes a compelling argument for us to approve the merger
DIPI: VTI ROGAS. As it is the will of the citizens of these provinces, including the propraetor of Lusitania, for this merger to take place, let it happen. I am sad to see one of ouir oldest provinces merge into another but recognize they know their region better than I
TLF: VTI ROGAS
LEC: VTI ROGAS. Since this is the wish and request of the citizens of both Provincia AND it is historical I believe that it is a good thing to do. The best of luck to our cives in Hispania. Bene omnibus nobis.
LCS: VTI ROGAS. My Comments: I share the sentiments of Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus. In addition to his sentiments, I think the door should be left open in the event that the citizens of the provincia wish to go back to the system of having two (or more) provincias in the future
QFM: VTI ROGAS. Illustrious Gryllus, our Pontifex and Propraetor of Lusitania, has convinced me to allow this to go forward. I mourn for the loss of one of our oldest provinces, however, and I hope this "streamling" procedure is not going to be a trend
LSD: VTI ROGAS. I'm reluctant to vote for a measure that includes setting a precedent for a Provincial Praetor being elected. The Provincial Praetors are the Senate's representives to the provinces, not the representive of the citizens of a provincia. Chartering Municipia will give citizens a voice in local affairs in keeping with the Mos Maiorum. I will vote for this as long as it is understood that the selection of Provincial Praetors remains with the Senate, and not with the provinces.
ATMC: VTI ROGAS. This has been well-planned and has a very effective goup of honorable people in charge. I fully approve of this move, and wish them all success in the future with their
plans.



Consul Quintilianus announced that "Items I and III will occur on a later Senate Agenda in a slightly changed form".

vale bene,

L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
========================
TB·PL·NOVA·ROMA·2756·AUC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

The citizen with the following voter tracking codes
has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

# 1074

Please remember to enter your code exactly as it is
given, and if you are unsure of your new code, follow
the instructions posted previously to obtain your
current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Rogator

Salvete Omnes,

> Item I
>
> Aedilian Fund [8 in favor - 3 opposing - 2 abstention / Didn't

achieve enough votes for passing.]

Can I know who voted against and why (or didn't vote)?
IMHO I think this is a very important step for our "live" activities
and relations with Public Istitutions, I would like to know what must
to be improved in the item. Please, contact me privately if you
prefer. Thank you very much.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile

Ave Fr. Apulus et Omnes,

I abstained and I very much leaned for voting against the measure. And, if presented again to the Senate its likely given the more time I have spent thinking about the item that I will vote against it if presented again.

I am extremely hesitant about allowing the a fund to be operated outside of the pervue of the Senate, espeically from the same account. I would like to know the legal ramificaitons of such a venture not only for Nova Roma internally, but its ramificaitons as it would affect our articles of incorporation. The Senate is the supreme policy making body of Nova Roma (according to Article V of the Constitution) and it is the sole financial controlling body for the corporation. I believe that at the very least we should consult a corporate lawyer (if NR would even condone the cost of consulting an attorney) or at the very lease consult a Certified Public Accountant about the possible tax consequences and liabilities that we (as a not for profit corporate entity) could face. Lest I forget to mention the complicated nature with regards to the reporting of funds according to GAAP guidelines (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles).

What I think would be a good compromise is to include an expense account on the general budget for the Aediles. This way they (the Aediles) will have a small budget and if need be they can petition the Senate for additional funds but in this way the financial controls continue to reside with the Senate. However, all fundraising and funds collection must retain within the jurisdictional authority of the Senate of Nova Roma.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Senator

----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:37 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Results of the last Senate Vote


Salvete Omnes,

> Item I
>
> Aedilian Fund [8 in favor - 3 opposing - 2 abstention / Didn't
achieve enough votes for passing.]

Can I know who voted against and why (or didn't vote)?
IMHO I think this is a very important step for our "live" activities
and relations with Public Istitutions, I would like to know what must
to be improved in the item. Please, contact me privately if you
prefer. Thank you very much.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete, omnes

Here are the month's listings for ancient (or not) Roman programs. All times
listed are EDT.

4-17 History Channel The Colosseum 10:00 pm
The Roman Emperors 11:00 pm

4-23 Discovery Channel The Roman Colosseum 8:00 pm and 11:00
pm

4-26 Discovery Channel The Roman Colosseum 1:00 pm

4-27 Discovery Channel Who Killed Julius Caesar? 8:00 pm and 11:00
pm

As usual, if I locate more appropriate programs I shall post them as well.
The Learning Channel website was giving me trouble yesterday, and I want to
try it again.


Vale,

GAIVS LANIVS FALCO
********************************************
Acting Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus Provincia Britannia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

03 Apr 03

Salve All

OATH OF OFFICE

I, Quintus Sertorius/Nathan Guiboche do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the
people
and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Quintus Sertorius/Nathan Guiboche
swear to
honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Quintus Sertorius/Nathan Guiboche swear to uphold and defend the
Religio
Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in
a
way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I Quintus Sertorius/NathanGuiboche swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Quintus Sertorius/Nathan Guiboche further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Propraetor for
Canada
Occidentalis to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the
position of Propraetor for Canada Occidentalis and all the rights,
privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

Ave,

GB Agricola wrote:

>I doubt Africans would have ever developed jazz or rock
>and roll if left to their own devices on the sub-continent.

Sub?

>They didn't have guitars, saxaphones, banjos violins etc etc.

Europe got the guitar when the oud (or ud, pick your transliteration) was
modified into the European lute, which mutated into the guitar. Lacking
the Arabs, thus, we'd never have seen rock and roll.

I seem to recall that the banjo has a less than, um...Aryan... lineage, too.

WGASA?

>Didn't look like they ever
>going to develop them. And I doubt "whitey" would have developed rock or
>jazz if left to their own devices, either. Thats it.

One thing that Rome was well ahead on was not really caring what shade
one's skin was, or whether one's ancestry was "pure" anything. We Novans
might do well to emulate it more.

There is much that modern music has inherited from all over the
world. Didjeridoos are showing up in modern Celtic music, just for
example. The streams of many nations flow together, and what shows up in
the delta of that confluence is pretty complex stuff.

Vale,

Marcus Umbrius


"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to
rule it."
-- H. L. Mencken --

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Roman Britain" website of the historian and
archaeologist Guy de la BŽdoyre:

http://www.bedoyere.freeserve.co.uk/

The website includes a catalogue of gods and goddesses attested by
inscriptions from Roman Britain, discussions of legionary and auxilia
units (with catalogues of extant evidence from epigraphic and
literary sources), a catalogue of inscriptions in stone from RIB, and
selections from his books and articles.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

G. Iulius Scaurus Marco Umbrio salutem dicit.

Salve, Marce Umbri.

Scripsisti:

> One thing that Rome was well ahead on was not really caring what shade
> one's skin was, or whether one's ancestry was "pure" anything. We

Novans

> might do well to emulate it more.

Unfortunately this impression about ancient Rome, largely a result of
the popularity of A.N. Sherwin-White's _Racial Prejudice in Imperial
Rome_ (Cambridge, 1967), the Gray lecture of 1966, a time in which a
more hopeful example of race relations was being eagerly sought by
much of the Anglophone world, has not been supported by more recent
research. There have been a number of studies of racial/colour
attitudes in iconography and in personal and commerical relations
(particularly from analysis of the large collection of papyri from
Roman Egypt) which suggest that a significant portion of the imperial
citizens and subjects who have left artifacts for scholarship to
examine had racial/colour prejudices.

Best wishes,

G. Iulius Scaurus

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, Luci Corneli.

At the risk of being entirely too flipant...

>However, all fundraising and funds collection must retain within the

jurisdictional >authority of the Senate of Nova Roma.

Wasn't that the principle over which Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus was
killed?

Lex de provincia Asia in the concilium plebis and all that :-).

Vale.

G. Iulius Scurra... er... Scaurus

Ave Umbrius

My point is that no one race can claim birth rights for jazz, or rock, or
whatever. Its all inter-related. That comes from my buddhist and masonic
training. What is a flower, without the earth, water, the sun? It can't
exist. You cannot claim the flower exists independently from, or is better
than, those elements, or that one is more valuable than the other, or
spontaneously sprung up on its own.

What would the Romans be without the Etruscans, Greeks, Sabines etc?
Certainly they took elements from those cultures and made something unique
and distinctly Roman. But I would never say they "stole" it, or that they
were better than the cultures that influenced them.

Agricola

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat [mailto:pmcl@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 7:39 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quote of the day:



Ave,

GB Agricola wrote:

>I doubt Africans would have ever developed jazz or rock
>and roll if left to their own devices on the sub-continent.

Sub?

>They didn't have guitars, saxaphones, banjos violins etc etc.

Europe got the guitar when the oud (or ud, pick your transliteration) was
modified into the European lute, which mutated into the guitar. Lacking
the Arabs, thus, we'd never have seen rock and roll.

I seem to recall that the banjo has a less than, um...Aryan... lineage,
too.

WGASA?

>Didn't look like they ever
>going to develop them. And I doubt "whitey" would have developed rock or
>jazz if left to their own devices, either. Thats it.

One thing that Rome was well ahead on was not really caring what shade
one's skin was, or whether one's ancestry was "pure" anything. We Novans
might do well to emulate it more.

There is much that modern music has inherited from all over the
world. Didjeridoos are showing up in modern Celtic music, just for
example. The streams of many nations flow together, and what shows up in
the delta of that confluence is pretty complex stuff.

Vale,

Marcus Umbrius


"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to
rule it."
-- H. L. Mencken --


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Wasn't that the principle over which Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus was
killed?"

Yes

Agricola

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Rose [mailto:gfr@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 3:29 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Results of the last Senate Vote


G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, Luci Corneli.

At the risk of being entirely too flipant...

>However, all fundraising and funds collection must retain within the

jurisdictional >authority of the Senate of Nova Roma.

Wasn't that the principle over which Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus was
killed?

Lex de provincia Asia in the concilium plebis and all that :-).

Vale.

G. Iulius Scurra... er... Scaurus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave



So if I plan, execute, and collect money on a fundraiser, and deposit that
money in a trust account, and then transfer that money to NR, what happens
then? I have to get approval from the senate to do so? Will they refuse the
money? You have to guard against the Republic from being too top heavy, and
micro-managing. I say business is where you find it.



Agricola

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:51 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Results of the last Senate Vote


Ave Fr. Apulus et Omnes,

I abstained and I very much leaned for voting against the measure. And,
if presented again to the Senate its likely given the more time I have spent
thinking about the item that I will vote against it if presented again.

I am extremely hesitant about allowing the a fund to be operated outside
of the pervue of the Senate, espeically from the same account. I would like
to know the legal ramificaitons of such a venture not only for Nova Roma
internally, but its ramificaitons as it would affect our articles of
incorporation. The Senate is the supreme policy making body of Nova Roma
(according to Article V of the Constitution) and it is the sole financial
controlling body for the corporation. I believe that at the very least we
should consult a corporate lawyer (if NR would even condone the cost of
consulting an attorney) or at the very lease consult a Certified Public
Accountant about the possible tax consequences and liabilities that we (as a
not for profit corporate entity) could face. Lest I forget to mention the
complicated nature with regards to the reporting of funds according to GAAP
guidelines (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles).

What I think would be a good compromise is to include an expense account
on the general budget for the Aediles. This way they (the Aediles) will
have a small budget and if need be they can petition the Senate for
additional funds but in this way the financial controls continue to reside
with the Senate. However, all fundraising and funds collection must retain
within the jurisdictional authority of the Senate of Nova Roma.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Senator

----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:37 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Results of the last Senate Vote


Salvete Omnes,

> Item I
>
> Aedilian Fund [8 in favor - 3 opposing - 2 abstention / Didn't
achieve enough votes for passing.]

Can I know who voted against and why (or didn't vote)?
IMHO I think this is a very important step for our "live" activities
and relations with Public Istitutions, I would like to know what must
to be improved in the item. Please, contact me privately if you
prefer. Thank you very much.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From : Gregory Rose <gfr@...>

>
>>research. There have been a number of studies of racial/colour
>attitudes in iconography and in personal and commerical relations
>(particularly from analysis of the large collection of papyri from
>Roman Egypt) which suggest that a significant portion of the imperial
>citizens and subjects who have left artifacts for scholarship to
>examine had racial/colour prejudices.
>

Can we be sure these were racial or a general order of increasing cultural contempt? We never hear of Iugurtha or Iuba referred to as other than kings of roughly Hellene type, unlike the various northern Barbarians. I'd be particularly wary if the study was done in England because in my experience, the English do have a tendency to very similar xenophobia that is often mistaken for colour racism. The colour makes it easier to indentify but I think that, like the Romans, there is more of a sense of cultural superiority to anybody, not of a true racism such as might have reluctantly accepted eg Colin Powell in his present position but still refused him access to the same amenities as Pinkskins, that you would have had in the old South Africa and USA. There were certainly sub-saharan civilisations at the time and trade with them, Benin mostly, but how much Rome knew about that and them is a different matter!

Caesariensis.

“The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive
mankind.“ De Sade.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave!

Not exactly, you forget what really got Ti Sempronius Gracchus killed was not only his manipulations of the traditions of the Republic but it was also his quest for Land Reform and breaking up the estates of the Senators and other members of the First Class.

Respectfully,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Rose
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 1:29 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Results of the last Senate Vote


G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, Luci Corneli.

At the risk of being entirely too flipant...

>However, all fundraising and funds collection must retain within the
jurisdictional >authority of the Senate of Nova Roma.

Wasn't that the principle over which Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus was
killed?

Lex de provincia Asia in the concilium plebis and all that :-).

Vale.

G. Iulius Scurra... er... Scaurus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lucius Equitius Omnibus SPD

I believe this subject was brought forth quite some time ago, years perhaps,
on this list and not necessarily concerning musical development. Anyway, for
a good source on ancient Roman views on race. See:
Before Color Prejudice, the Ancient View of Blacks, by Frank M. Snowden, Jr.
Harvard University Press
ISBN 0-674-06381-3

Valete
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:01:03 +0100 (BST)
From: me-in-@...
Subject: Re: Re: Quote of the day:

-----Original Message-----
From : Gregory Rose <gfr@...>

>
>>research. There have been a number of studies of racial/colour
>attitudes in iconography and in personal and commerical relations
>(particularly from analysis of the large collection of papyri from
>Roman Egypt) which suggest that a significant portion of the imperial
>citizens and subjects who have left artifacts for scholarship to
>examine had racial/colour prejudices.
>

Can we be sure these were racial or a general order of increasing cultural
contempt? We never hear of Iugurtha or Iuba referred to as other than kings
of roughly Hellene type, unlike the various northern Barbarians. I'd be
particularly wary if the study was done in England because in my experience,
the English do have a tendency to very similar xenophobia that is often
mistaken for colour racism. The colour makes it easier to indentify but I
think that, like the Romans, there is more of a sense of cultural
superiority to anybody, not of a true racism such as might have reluctantly
accepted eg Colin Powell in his present position but still refused him
access to the same amenities as Pinkskins, that you would have had in the
old South Africa and USA. There were certainly sub-saharan civilisations at
the time and trade with them, Benin mostly, but how much Rome knew about
that and them is a different matter!

Caesariensis.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive
mankind." De Sade.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Salvete omnes plebeii

English.

Tomorrow voting ends!. This will be the last run off election if all plebeians vote. Come on cives plebeii!!!. Less than 24 hours left ahead!!. Don't miss your oportunity to cast your vote!!.

Spanish.

Mañana termina la votación!. Esta será la última vuelta si todos los plebeyos votan. Vamos cives plebeii!!!. Quedan menos de 24 horas para votar!!!. No pierdan la oportunidad de emitir sus votos!!

Bene valete
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Tribunus Plebis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites!

The reason that the Aedilian Fund wasn't approved of in the Senate
was not a _few_ Senators voting again the proposal.

I argued against the objections of a few and tried to answer a few
questions. Here I repeat this my aruments.

Item I
Aedilian Fund

Is it Constitutional?

The Constitution IV A.6.

"Quaestor. A number of quaestors shall be elected by the comitia
populi tributa equal to the number of consuls, praetors, and aediles
to serve a term lasting one year. One quaestor shall be assigned to
each of these magistrates by mutual agreement or, if such cannot be
made, by decision of the newly-elected consuls. They shall have the
power and obligation to administer those funds that shall be
allocated to them by the Senate in its annual budget under the
supervision of that magistrate to whom they are assigned. Those
quaestors assigned directly to the consuls shall supervise the whole
of the aerarium (treasury), but no funds may be spent without the
prior approval of the Senate."

It seems very clear that this is constitutional: "They shall have the
power and obligation to administer those funds that shall be
allocated to them by the Senate in its annual budget under the
supervision of that magistrate to whom they are assigned." This is
exactly what the Aedilian fund is about. It is of course possible for
the Senate to allocate those donations that are meant to go to the
Aedilian projects to the Aedilian fund. It is clearly the intention
of the Constitution to make it possible to "to split up the treasury
into sections each under the control of a magistrate". Even though I
have the impression that this is intended to only concern limited
projects.

Still I also think that the control of the Treasury is fundamental to
the power of the Senate and I am going to propose measures to
strengthen the Senate's grip during the autumn. But to have funds
under different magistrati according to the Constitution should be
_no_ problem. If following the Constitution is a "terrible
precedents", then I don't know where we would be heading. Still I am
sure that most Senatores don't see any problem with this.

As far as I have understood we have since long mixed donations with
tax money in the Treasury. But in this case the Aedilian fund will be
separately accounted for.

The reason to have a special fund within the Treasury for the
Aedilian fund is mostly practical as can be seen in the S.C. PayPal
can be used and we could do some tax deduction.

The project that already has gathered some money is the "Restoring of
the Temple of Magna Mater Project" and the Aediles have the intention
to work with the "Herculaneum Lost Library Fund/Papyrus Villa
Project" too. It is such projects that the Aedilian funds are meant
for. This according to the spirit of Constitution. IV.A.4.b. "...to
see to the maintenance of any real public facilities that the State
should acquire,". To protect and "develop" such "public" places could
easiely be seen as the duty of the Aediles.

I think that there may be enough support in the Senate for the
Aedilian Fund next time I put it forward.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Wasn't that the principle over which Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus was
>killed?
>
>Lex de provincia Asia in the concilium plebis and all that :-).
>
>Vale.
>
>G. Iulius Scurra... er... Scaurus

Pretty good company to keep, all in all, I suppose.

M. Umbrius

(apologies, Gaius Scaurus, my command of Latin allows me to glean a fair
bit of what's written--but not to write even a decent salutation. My brain
freezes up with everything conjugating furiously, like something envisioned
by Fellini.... I admire your usage, and hope that one of these days I
understand enough to properly wade in...)

Salve, G. Iulio Scauro

Scripsisti:

(I can be taught)

> > One thing that Rome was well ahead on was not really caring what shade
> > one's skin was, or whether one's ancestry was "pure" anything. We Novans
> > might do well to emulate it more.

<snip>

>There have been a number of studies of racial/colour
>attitudes in iconography and in personal and commerical relations
>(particularly from analysis of the large collection of papyri from
>Roman Egypt) which suggest that a significant portion of the imperial
>citizens and subjects who have left artifacts for scholarship to
>examine had racial/colour prejudices.

Gods forfend that I leave the impression that I suffered the delusion that
the Romans were free of prejudices.

I simply haven't seen anything that suggests that Roman "race"/color
prejudices were as extreme as those which have tainted the modern world.

If you have links (or references that you could cite) that might indicate
how bad this was in Rome, I'd be most interested.

My impression is simply that Romans were not, on average, as
color-conscious and as prejudiced on "racial" grounds.

One would assume, for example, that the darker Italic skin would have made
the simplistic Black-White spectrum a non-starter. After all, the paler
Celts and Teutonic peoples were (no doubt) inferior to Romans, as much as
Greeks, Carthaginians, Nubians and so forth.

(Don't take lack of response to mean anything; I am taking my family and
fleeing the charming news of the day for a week or so in the mountains of
America Austroccidentalis.)

Vale,

M. Umbrius Ursus

Salve,

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Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I don't know much about this topic, and I'm not as
widely read in Roman matters as many citizens, but I
can think off the top of my head of one example of
fairly clear racial (not cultural) prejudice on the
part of a Roman intellectual: Ammianus Marcellinus
(I'm not at home so I can't look up the reference, I'm
afraid), when he recounts the first appearance of the
Huns in the 370s AD, refers in openly disgusted manner
to their block-like heads and other physical
characteristics.

However, this was a long time after the republican
period, and was the first time Romans had seen any
members of an East Asian ethnic group, so it must have
been genuinely surprising for them - and probably for
the Huns as well. Also, some scholars have suggested
that the Huns may have practised forms of ritual
self-mutilation which would have made them look
alarming by any standards.

I can't think of any examples of Roman bias against
people on account of their actual skin colour. Romans
did pass comment on physical characteristics of
different races, such as the stature and complexions
of the Gauls, but not usually in such a way as to
suggest that different physical characteristics meant
inferiority.

Now, I'll tell you a genuinely remarkable thing, as a
prize for the one or two people who've toiled through
my foregoing waffle: The ancient Chinese very probably
looked physically different from some of their
neighbours, and almost certainly spoke a different
language, yet their literature pays no attention to
these differences at all. When ambassadors went abroad
to talk to foreign peoples, we know from one or two
stray references that they needed interpreters, but
writers represent them as talking directly to the
foreigners, like the wonderful way in Star Wars that
the humans address the aliens in English and the
aliens respond in strange gooey noises with subtitles.
And there's no suggestion from ancient Chinese
literature that non-Chinese people looked odd or
strange - the evidence for different ethnic groups is
all non-literary. See Burton Watson, 'Ssu-ma Ch'ien:
Grand Historian Of China', somewhere in chapter 1.

Cordus

=====


www.strategikon.org


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Salve Illustrus Quintus Sertorius!

I warmly congratulate You to your appointment as Propraetor of Canada
Occidentalis Provincia! I am sure that You will develop it to a
strong and flourishing Provincia! Good Luck!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:01:03PM +0100, me-in-@... wrote:

>
> I'd be particularly wary if the study was done in England
> because in my experience, the English do have a tendency to very
> similar xenophobia that is often mistaken for colour racism. The
> colour makes it easier to indentify but I think that, like the Romans,
> there is more of a sense of cultural superiority to anybody, not of a
> true racism such as might have reluctantly accepted eg Colin Powell in
> his present position but still refused him access to the same
> amenities as Pinkskins

*That* sounds like straight-out racism. Would you care to explain why
you chose to insult a group of people based on the color of their skin,
or would you just prefer to apologize?


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
Everything changes, nothing perishes.
-- Ovid, "Metamorphoses"

Ave

>>I'd be particularly wary if the study was done in England because

in my experience, the English do have a tendency to very similar
xenophobia that is often mistaken for colour racism>>

In my experience (as a historian), this is in fact not the case.
However, being English I admit I might have a biased opinion! :)

On another note, I am trying to contact Annia Lucilla Aurelia,
Materfamilias of Gens Lucilla with regards to an application for
citizenship but dont have a valid email address as that given in the
Album Gentium appears out of date....

Respectfully

Mike McMillan
Britannia

Congratulations Quintus Sertorius;

May the days of your Praetorship be crowned with success!!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, Luci Corneli.

Scripsisti:

> Not exactly, you forget what really got Ti Sempronius Gracchus

killed was not only his manipulations of the traditions of the
Republic but it was also his quest for Land Reform and breaking up the
estates of the Senators and other members of the First Class.

While I was actually making a joke, there was a historical point in my
remark. I contend that Senatorial violence against T. Sempronius
Gracchus would never have occurred if T. Sempronius hadn't found a
practical way to implement the land reform by using a plebscite to
allocate the funds made available by the creation of the province of
Asia to that purpose. What T. Sempronius did was involve the plebs
both in foreign policy (the bequest of the king of Pergamum of what
became the province of Asia to Rome) and in the allocation of state
funds, both areas in which the Senate had hitherto had virtually
unilateral control, and he did so without following the precedent of
seeking a senatus consultum prior to presenting legislation to the
concilium plebis, It was only after he end-ran the Senate to provide
the funds for the land reform (and thrust the plebs into foreign
policy to do it*) that he became a mortal threat to the Senatorial
elite; without those funds his land reform bill would have gone
nowhere. David Stockton's treatment of these issues in _The Gracchi_
(Oxford, 1979) seems to me persuasive.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

*Recall how the near-contemporary Polybius characterised it: "pr˜s d
t˜v dmon kath‡pax oudŽn esti t™v proeiremŽnon" (sorry, I don't know
the html for the breathing-marks and Yahoo isn't displaying my usual
Greek font).

SALVETE OMNES!

I make this prayer of offering to Cybele, Great Idaean Mother of the Gods, to commemorate the opening of Her sacred festival week, the Megalensia!

SALVE MATER DEVM MAGNA IDAEA
SALVE O DEA MAIOR SANCTISSIMA
TE PRECOR BONAS PRECES O CYBELE
BERECYNTHIA MATER DINDYMENE
TE QVAESO IN CVSTODELAM NOS TVAM
VTINAM RECIPIAS ET TVTERE
TIBI OFFERO HANC ORATIONEM
VT DES PACEM PROPITIA SALVTEM
ET SANITATEM NOSTRAE FAMILIAE
VTI SIS VOLENS PROPITIA NOBIS
ET NVNQVAM DESOLES LIBEROS TVOS


Translation is provided, with more images and information, at the link below:

http://www.aztriad.com/cybele.html

and a bit of history at:

http://www.aztriad.com/nrcybele.html

OPTIME VALETE IN LVCE MATRIS MAGNAE ....



PACEM VENIAMQVE DEORVM TIBI EXOPTET IVLIA VOPISCA

http://www.aztriad.com/cybeleix.html

* MATRIS DEVM MAGNAE IDEAEAE SACERDOS FILIAQVE *



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave G. Iulius,

I understand your response was a joke. I actually had two responses for your post...I sent the one that was a bit more serious in tone. My other response was definately more lighthearted in nature.

Yes, I am aware of the precedent that Tribune T. Sempronius was setting during his tenure as Tribune of the Plebs, as you can probably tell by my Roman name, I do not hold the Sempronii in the highest esteem. I view them as politicans pure and simple who tried to manipulate the system for their own gain.

I also recommend Mommsen's work on the Late Roman Republic and Scullard's From the Gracchi to Nero: A History of Rome from 133 BC to 68 AD as well.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Rose
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 6:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Results of the last Senate Vote


G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, Luci Corneli.

Scripsisti:

> Not exactly, you forget what really got Ti Sempronius Gracchus
killed was not only his manipulations of the traditions of the
Republic but it was also his quest for Land Reform and breaking up the
estates of the Senators and other members of the First Class.

While I was actually making a joke, there was a historical point in my
remark. I contend that Senatorial violence against T. Sempronius
Gracchus would never have occurred if T. Sempronius hadn't found a
practical way to implement the land reform by using a plebscite to
allocate the funds made available by the creation of the province of
Asia to that purpose. What T. Sempronius did was involve the plebs
both in foreign policy (the bequest of the king of Pergamum of what
became the province of Asia to Rome) and in the allocation of state
funds, both areas in which the Senate had hitherto had virtually
unilateral control, and he did so without following the precedent of
seeking a senatus consultum prior to presenting legislation to the
concilium plebis, It was only after he end-ran the Senate to provide
the funds for the land reform (and thrust the plebs into foreign
policy to do it*) that he became a mortal threat to the Senatorial
elite; without those funds his land reform bill would have gone
nowhere. David Stockton's treatment of these issues in _The Gracchi_
(Oxford, 1979) seems to me persuasive.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

*Recall how the near-contemporary Polybius characterised it: "pr~s d
t~v dmon kath?pax oudZn esti tTv proeiremZnon" (sorry, I don't know
the html for the breathing-marks and Yahoo isn't displaying my usual
Greek font).




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus M. Umbrio Urso salutem dicit.

Salve, Marce Umbri.

Scripsisti:

> I simply haven't seen anything that suggests that Roman "race"/color
> prejudices were as extreme as those which have tainted the modern world.
>
> If you have links (or references that you could cite) that might

indicate

> how bad this was in Rome, I'd be most interested.
>
> My impression is simply that Romans were not, on average, as
> color-conscious and as prejudiced on "racial" grounds.
>
> One would assume, for example, that the darker Italic skin would

have made

> the simplistic Black-White spectrum a non-starter. After all, the paler
> Celts and Teutonic peoples were (no doubt) inferior to Romans, as

much as

> Greeks, Carthaginians, Nubians and so forth.

America Austroccidentalis.)

I'm not at all certain that is it possible from the sources to compare
with any real precision the degree of racial prejudice in today's
world and the Roman world. My point was that the impression that
Roman society was relatively colour-blind, as Sherwin-White suggested.
has not been borne out by more recent scholarship. A taste of the
sort of scholarship to which I am referring can be obtained from:

Gay L. Byron, _Symbolic Blackness and Ethnic Difference in Early
Christian Literature_ (London, 2002) -- Byron also presents a great
deal of Graeco-Roman pre-Christian and Pagan evidence.

Robert E.Hood, _Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and
Blackness_ (Minneapolis, 1994) -- Like Byron, Hood has useful material
on pre- and non-Christian attitudes.

Robert Garland, _The Eye of the Beholder: Deformity and Disability in
the Greco-Roman World_ (Ithaca, 1995).

David Noy, _Foreigners at Rome: Citizens and Strangers_ (London, 2000).

Stephen Mitchell and Geoffrey Greatrex, eds., _Ethnicity and Culture
in Late Antiquity_ (London, 2000).

Derek A. Welsby, _The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia: Pagans, Christians
and Muslims along the Middle Nile_ (London, 2002) -- this has a
greater amount of evidence from antiquity than the title suggests.

I'm sorry, but I don't know of any websites that treat this issue in a
scholarly way. I hope these citations will be helpful.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus