----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 3:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


Salve Sulla,

no, you're attacking me in a not-noble public way. So please answer
to my reasonable questions in the same public way.
You can read the questions at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-
Roma/ and if you don't answer me I have to think you haven't the
answers...
The same things is for Illustrus Fabius Maximus and others. Please,
give the answers. I answered you, why you wan't do it?

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Email them privately to me, and I will respond.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:07 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
>
>
> Salve Senattor,
>
> please, read my past messages (yesterday) in the archive of the
Main
> mailing list if you are interested to answer me.
> But if you don't want answer me don't search ... ;-)
>
> Vale
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > I have not been online for the most part of today (it is Sunday
and
> I do try to get most of my errands compeleted during the weekend)
but
> beyond that I have not seen any question that you have directed
to
> me. Can you please point it out?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 5:20 PM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
> >
> >
> > Salvete Maximus and others,
> >
> > I have ask you several questions about my "mistaken", why
you,
> Sulla
> > and your friends don't answer me? Why you answer to Illustrus
> Gnaeus
> > Salix Astur and not give me reasonable and correct answers?
> >
> > > Of course. No one is dying in reality. So I do understand
why
> > people are
> > > saying what is the big deal.
> > > The big deal is perception and precedent.
> >
> > What kind of precedents? As I written in a past message, the
> majority
> > of the past Aediles didn't organize Ludi, Illustrus Caeso
fabius
> > Quintilianus in the last year didn't organize violent and
bloodly
> > games, the last Megalesia Ludi hadn't bloodly games.
> > I reapeat and please answer: what are the precedents?
> > Maybe Magna Mater have punished Nova Roma for the past wrong
Ludi?
> >
> > > Intersting that you say this. If we are recreation of
Rome,
> and we
> > are
> > > picking what is best for Rome, based on 21st century
hindsight
> we
> > are not
> > > much of a recreation are
> > > we? And if you are indeed a follower of Gods as you claim,
you
> > would not be
> > > making
> > > this feeble argument. What God have you spoken to recently
> that
> > told you
> > > this is true? Or are you just taking a wild guess?
> >
> > And do you have talken with the Gods and Magna Mater
yesterday?
> What
> > kind of punishment they suggested you?
> > I think maybe do you use your religious position like a
political
> > position? Are you using your religious powers to stop a
political
> > controversy?
> >
> > > No that is not what we are saying. And the fact that you
think
> > this is true,
> > > tells me
> > > that you are not paying attention to the situation at all.
> > >
> > > If some one is writing a novel, called "Nova Roma," and he
> promotes
> > bloodless
> > > games to protest a forign war, that is his choice and he is
> welcome
> > to do it.
> > >
> > > However, this is not the case.
> > > We have an orginization that is commited to revive the
> Religio. We
> > have
> > > attempted when ever possible to follow the ancients'
writings,
> or
> > when unable
> > > to do so use divine inspiration
> > > to accomplish this. We now have a priestess of the Great
> Goddess,
> > one who is
> > > dovoted in researching and writing about the Great Goddess.
> > > The Megalesia was a yearly celebration commentating the
Great
> > Goddess
> > > arrival in Rome and her intervention
> > > allowing the Romans to win the Second Punic War, according
to
> the
> > prophecy.
> >
> > Illustrus Maximus, you are a religious expert, please give us
a
> > description and explanation of Magna Mater. I invoke the
> intervation
> > of Illustra Iulia Vopisca Cocceia checking what Magna Mater
(or
> > Cybele) was for the Ancient Romans.
> > Please, show me if Magna Mater means blood and violence.
> > I have studied the cult of Magna MAter during the last two
years
> and
> > I have a my answer but you are the expert...
> >
> > > It is also an appeasement to her to continue to maintain
her
> favor
> > with Rome.
> > > In other words let's keep her happy. It was not just an
> excuse to
> > throw a
> > > giant party which our current Aediles seems to think it is.
> > > Now all you non members of the Religio might say that her
> coming to
> > Rome and
> > > winning the war is a load of peanut butter. Fine, that's
your
> > right since we
> > > do celebrate freedom of religion here in Rome.
> > > But we made sure that that non practicers who are elected
> > Magistrates could
> > > not express this doubt in state functions. The Megalesia
is a
> > state
> > > function.
> > > That is why those clauses exist. To keep impiety like this
> from
> > happening.
> >
> > I'm very sorry, Maximus, I have a different idea. I make
happy
> Magna
> > Mater restoring the Temple in the Palatine Hill in a REAL
project
> for
> > a REAL action in a REAL life. IMHO Magna Mater is happy for
the
> > project of my Cohors: I'm donating year my money, my work
time,
> > my "face" in front of the local italian Istitution, the check
of
> the
> > ruins, the study of a big project.
> > And during this work I organize big Ludi within 4 games
> (Naumachiae,
> > Ludi Circenses, Venationes and Munera Gladiatoria), prayers
and
> > rituals, a cultural contest, a multiplayer video-game's
match, an
> > archeological day, an artistic contest, etc. This is my way
to
> > honorate and make happy my Goddess.
> >
> > What are your way to honorate Magna Mater as Pontiffs?
> > Why Magna Mather should be hurted by my actions if I'm
organizing
> > sevarl events and recovering the original Temple but i'm not
> writing
> > bloodly scenes?
> > Please, as expert of Religio, what do you think I could do
more
> to
> > make happy the Gods?
> > Please, I'm waiting for a soon answer from you, Sulla and
your
> > friends.
> >
> > > Wait, I hear you say! If the games are virtual, and no
real
> blood
> > is being
> > > shed, where is the harm?
> > > The harm lies in the fact that duly elected magistrates are
> making
> > their own
> > > decisions on
> > > how a state function that has a deep religious meaning is
being
> > carried out.
> > > There in lies the
> > > harm.
> >
> > I was elected by the majority of the citizens. The majority
of
> the
> > Nova Romans give me their faith to have exciting games. The
> majority
> > of Nova Romans didn't send me messages about my will
declaration.
> > If I wrong the Nova Romans will ask me to resign my Office
and
> I'll
> > not continue my career in the next year. However nobody
(except
> your
> > friends) asked me to withdraw the declaration or to resign my
> Office.
> > Who elected Sulla and your friend to attack me, a Magistrate
> elected
> > by the Nova Romans?
> > I remember you all that in the Ancient Rome nobody (except
the
> higher
> > Magistrates) could interfere with the Ludi. Do you want the
> > Tradition?...
> >
> > > Again you miss the point. If we believe blood sacrifice is
> > necessary or not,
> > >
> > > it is not up to the Aediles to change tradition for the
sake of
> a
> > political
> > > statement.
> >
> > Please, give me an answer, this is the 4th time I ask you
what I
> have
> > changed! There aren't precedents, the other Magistrates
didn't
> > organize bloodly games and the last Megalesia hadn't violent
> scenes.
> > Please answer, the past Magistrates have changed the
Tradition?
> > Or maybe I'm changing the Tradition because I don't organize
real
> > games with real blood and real deaths? Maybe the "virtual" is
a
> > changement of the Tradition?
> >
> > MAXIMUS, YOU AS PAST AEDILE HAVE CHANGED THE TRADITION NOT
> ORGANIZING
> > LUDI??
> > Please answer me and to all the Nova Romans!!!
> >
> > > We have banned animal sacrifice for the time being since
none
> of
> > > us except for Venerator has the skill to carry it out.
> > > However that may change in the future. After all, that is
all
> a
> > large Texas
> > > cookout
> > > is, without the religious connotation. You slaughter a
cow,
> cook
> > it, then
> > > eat it, with 300 of your closest friends.
> >
> > So, I can't organize real ludi with murders and running
horses,
> maybe
> > in the future I'll do it, please now let me continue my hard
work.
> >
> > At the end, I think you and your friends are using this noble
> > declaration as a political attack. This is not noble and I
can't
> > accept your objections. They are not logical and several
people
> and
> > Magistrates are disagreeing with you. Maybe you have to
reflect
> about
> > your position and move a step back.
> >
> > [After my messages during the past afternoon I started to be
fine
> > from my surgical operation. My wound isn't bloodly and I
don't
> feel
> > pain. Maybe Magna Mater and Gods are protecting me!]
> >
> > Valete
> > Fr. Apulus Caesar
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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>In a message dated 4/7/03 8:46:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>loos@... writes:
>
>Salvete et Salve Mani Villi Limitane!
>
>> Let's dimish our number of tribes with the possibility of raising it
>> later when we have much more citizens.
>>
>
>I felt that this should have been done three years ago. However such things
>are hard to
>carry out when going against tradition.
>In all my studies I have found Roman citizens did not vote for one candidate
>at a time, especially when multiple candidates were on the ballot.

> It
>appears it is this one "one vote, one candidate" that is causing the problem.
>
>Valete
>
>FABIVS*MAXIMVS
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> L Equitius: You specious argument is duly noted. Often those who

> others of nefarious motives need to look at their own actions as the
> template. Your use of the Religio to make political statements is

> short of hypocritical.

> I believe you have heard from several Pontificies, none supporting

> statement. How many more must it take for you to listen? Must we

> public only to hear the, "why did this have to be public, why

> get settled in private?" whine.

> BTW Though Nova Roma is not a 'theocracy', religious positions are
> political! The Religio is part of the State! Go back and read the
> Constitution and related documents.

> The Consules issued a direct statement that Nova Roma is neutral

> the current conflict.

> Oh, are the games really "an unimportant thing?" Well then wonder

> Apule made such a
> to-do with his little "MEGALESIA LUDI: Joint Declaration II", must

> important to him.

>Salvete omnes.
>
>Congratulations to the two blues that go to the semifinals :
>Ossifragus and Phobos!!. The best fortune during the semifinals!!!!
>
>Bene valete
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
>Dominus factionis veneta

> The issue, of "Peace, and being against the war" and all those good

> But you have done more than that, by issing your "Joint

> Let us not forget that it was these very Aediles who in February

>Salve honorable Consul Q. Caseo Quintiliane
>
>As dominus factionis veneta I was referring to the fact that two
>blues are in the semifinals at the Ludi Megalenses,

>which it is an achievement by itself.

>And all the members of my factio have my support and "hurrah".

>Cura ut valeas
>
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
>Senator
>Tribunus Plebis
>Propraetor provincialis Argentinae
>Dominus Factionis veneta

> >
> >As dominus factionis veneta I was referring to the fact that two
> >blues are in the semifinals at the Ludi Megalenses,
>
> How do You know that? Have I missed something?
>

> Salve Romans
>
> I need help building a web site for the Eagle can anybody help?
>
> Also I would love to have a cartoon appear in the Eagle each month

>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Curator Differum
> Fortuna Favet Fortibus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salvete,
>
> I have just gone back in the archives and I am a bit embarrased to

> my name was signed to the joint declaration regarding the Megalesia

> which I did not even read until 5 minutes ago because I have been

> much absent from all of the NR lists for the last month. Hindsight

> that I should have sent an 'official' absentio email so that it

> that the only emails that I would read would be those posted to the

> list.
>
> Had I read the statement beforehand, I would not have agreed to

> signed to it for 3 reasons:
> - I see it as a political statement even if I personally agree with

> - As a Priestess in the Religio (albeit a very minor one and surely

> most knowledgeable one) I would not sign my name to anything that

> slightly involves the Religion without the approval of the Collegium
> Pontificum
> - As a Tribune I find putting my name to the statement of any other
> magistrate to be a conflict of interest.
>
> So to whomever is in charge of 'officially' adding these types of

> to out official records, please remove my name. Thanks!
>
> Lastly, I hereby resign my position as Scriba ad Narrationes since

> obligations will most likely prevent me from being able to write

> narrations this year.
>
> Thanks & valete,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
>
> <Signed by the following members of F. Apulus Caesar Cohors Aedilis:
> > * F. Apulus Cesar - Senior Curule Aedile
> > * M. Constatinus Serapio - Quaestor
> > * Gn. Salix Galaicus - Scriba Ludorum Primus
> > * M. Iulius Perusianus - Scriba Historicus Primus
> > * G. Fabia Livia - Scriba Historica Secunda
> > * L. Didius Geminus Sceptius - Scriba Ludorum Secundus
> > * C. Curius Saturninus - Scriba Ludorum
> > * D. Moravia Aventina - Scriba ad Narrationes
> > * Renata Corva - Scriba ad Narrationes

> The Consules issued a direct statement that Nova Roma is neutral

> the current conflict. I wonder what anyone would say if I, as Flamen
> Martialis Novae Romae, were to make an offering to Mars requesting

> of coalition forces?
>
> I've kept my opinions to myself and I wish others would do the same.

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 5:10 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 535 Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


AVE OPTIME LVCI EQVITI CINCINNATE

> The Consules issued a direct statement that Nova Roma is neutral
concerning
> the current conflict. I wonder what anyone would say if I, as Flamen
> Martialis Novae Romae, were to make an offering to Mars requesting
success
> of coalition forces?
>
> I've kept my opinions to myself and I wish others would do the same.

It seems like if it has not been clearly underlined yet.
In the Aedilian Declaration of will nothing is pro or against USA,
nothing is pro or against Iraq.
Probably some of you, while reading "Peace" understood "we are
against the US attack". I repeat: "Peace" means "everybody (including
Bush and Blair) want peace as soon as possible". Someone whishes
peace after a US vistory, someone else whishes peace after an Iraqi
victory, but everyone hope the war ends as soon as possible.
As a consequence, no personal opinion about the war has been
expressed in that declaration.
I remind you all that both our Consules told that the aedilian
declaration does not interfere with the neutrality status of Nova
Roma.

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor



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----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 3:28 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


Salve Sulla,

> Sulla: Maybe you should consider resigning the Office then,
since you obviously cannot meet a major portion of the
responsibilities of the office.

Why, Iullstrus Sulla?
Sulla: Because your failure to recognize that the institution of the Religio Romana is being corrupted by your interference and the declaration that you and your cohorts published.

Our Costitution says:
"Aediles Curules (Curule Aedile). Two curule aediles shall be elected
by the comitia populi tributa to serve a term lasting one-year. They
shall have the following honors, powers, and obligations:
To hold Imperium;
To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to see to the conduct of
public games and other festivals and gatherings, to ensure order at
public religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public
facilities that the State should acquire, and to administer the law
(such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others);
To pronounce intercessio against another aedile (curule or plebeian)
or magistrate of lesser authority;
To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other
tasks, as he shall see fit.
To maintain the venues where the Ordo Equester are engaged in
commerce, within Nova Roma property. It is the responsibility of the
Curule Aediles to report any changes of the Ordo Equaestor to the
Censors. "

Sulla: Yes, I am very familiar with that, but you are not familiar with Section VI.B.1.b of the Constitution which state,
1.. To have ritual responsibilities within the Religio Romana; and general authority over the institutions, rites, rituals, and priesthoods of the public Religio Romana;.
Sulla: The Ludi, espeically the Megalesian carry Religous connotations and your failure to recognize it, your willingness to corrupt them, forces me, as a Senator of Nova Roma and a person who upholds the Official Religion of Nova Roma, to call for your immediate impeachment.

Do you read detailed words about how I have to organize the Ludi? Is
written I have to offer violent and bloodly games?

Sulla: I have read your "Joint Declaration" and find it runs counter to Section VI of the Constitution, when it states in Section VI.A

The Religio Romana, the worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, shall be the official religion of Nova Roma. All magistrates and Senators, as officers of the State, shall be required to publically show respect for the Religio Romana and the Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great. Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners.

And Section 1 and 2 of the Blasphemy Decreta: (http://novaroma.org/tabularium/pontifices/2003-03-06-i.htm)

1.. The Religio Romana will not come under attack with intent to remove or replace the Religio Romana as the State religion of Nova Roma; and that the Religio Romana shall not be deliberately slandered, defamed, or mocked with intent to undermine its position as the State Religion of Nova Roma.
2.. INo elected official shall use their elected powers or political status as a means of working to undermine, remove, or replace the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma.

I have several events, games, shows, projects offering to the Gods
and to the Nova Romans.

Sulla: I do not dispute that.
I disagree with you, as Curule Aedile I have 5 macro-duties and in
the second point I have 4 detailed goals. What you mean? I think I'm
following what the Costitution ask to do me.

Sulla: I do not think you are. You are only following part of the Constitution that strictly relate to your position, but you fail to realize and follow the entire Constitution in that your position is strictly in violation of Section VI of the Constituton. Two Pontiffs have already stated that, our Augur has stated that, what do you need a Priestly Decreta. If it gets to that point, I will present a motion for your impeachment for violation of your Oath of office to uphold and protect the Religio Romana.

And I'm not able to organize bloodly games in this moment because now
we live in sad time of war. I think you're hoping the war will
continue since the end of the year. I hope the war ends as soon as
possible, before my next Ludi.

Sulla: War or no war, it is your duty to conduct the games in the Religious matter that they need to be carried out. You do not have the authority to tamper with the Contract that we, the People of Nova Roma have with the Gods.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The issue, of "Peace, and being against the war" and all those good

>Let us not forget that it was these very Aediles who in February
>tried to pass an edict that would have created a Police state and
>the establishment of a secret police!

> I don't know; perhaps he really thought that it was an important
> thing :-). In any case, that does not make him impious.
>
> Sulla: I would believe that the Augur(s) and Pontiffs have a

> Maximus, I repeat you my question: Have you organized bloodily and
> violent games as Aedile?

> In a special way, have you organized Megalesia Ludi? And these Ludi
> have beeen violent?
>

> religious? Do you have organized other religious events like public prayers,
>
> restoration of Temples, etc.?
>

> than yours? You have been Aedile like me, why your duties were less
> than mine?
>

> About your "wonderful" little lesson of history, we know well what
> were teh Naumachiae and we have organized them not thinking to
> recreate the original Ludi but offering new excting games to Gods and
> Nova Romans.
>

> Friday night she tried to kill herself. I will
> probably be able to do something good about this, but as I also have
> an ordinary job to take care of I will not be on line for a few days.
>

> No, I disagree with you because I doubt you have lighted real candles.
>

> Then why was this declaration not published in the beginning of the

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: MEGALESIA LUDI: Joint Declaration


AVE SENATOR SVLLA

Why did you not continue to use your established relationship with
the CP and Augur before you tried to publish this "Joint
Declaration?" This answer has not been forth coming to date.

Before giving you my answer, let me say that there are many other
question which have been posed much before this one and which got no
answer yet from you nor from the person they were directly addressed
to, Senator Maximus. It seems like if you are answering only those
paragraphs you like to answer.

Sulla: As I have stated before Manius Constantinus, during the weekend I am not online 24 hours a day, I have asked Fr. Apulus to point out which posts he has asked questions for me to answer, and I will respond. I do not have the time digging through archieves for posts that have to be answered, I do the best I can with the time that I have online.
> The issue, of "Peace, and being against the war" and all those good
things are not the issue. [snip]
Had you just made a politcal statement that you are against the war,
is fine.

This shows that you didn't understand yet what has been said many
times. The declaration doesn't tell "we are against the war". I for
one am not against war itself. However, I subscribed the declaration
as I see that many Roman citizen could be fisically or emotionally
involved in the actual conflict (and I am one of them, as I have
several friends fighting there in the US army).
So, please, and hopefully for the last time, exclude the anti-war
accusation from your list.

Sulla: Look, I can care less if your for the war or against it, that has not been the point. The point is that you and your cohort does not have the jurisdictional authority to change a religious event to suite your own concerns and feelings. Not only that but, I sense hyprocrisy and I personally believe that you and your cohorts have violated the Constitution of Nova Roma and the neutrality decree and the blasphemy decreta. And, if I must I will follow the suggestion of A. Apollonius and bring charges against the Aedile Fr. Apulus and those citizens who are oath takers and have signed the Joint Declaration are guilty.

>Let us not forget that it was these very Aediles who in February
>tried to pass an edict that would have created a Police state and
>the establishment of a secret police!

Let me make clear that Aedilis Marinus is not involved in the current
Aedilian declaration.

Sulla: I understand that, but that does not take away the fact that it was attempted.
They withdrew those edicts as they acknowledged the criticisms they
got were right. Again, eliminate this point from your list.

Sulla: Of course, I was one of the first to protest it.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:12 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 535 Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator Sulla.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Sulla: I would believe that all Religious officials answer to
> the Gods who are a higher authoirty than the People, would you not
> agree Praetor?

There is a Latin phrase that reads: "Vox Populi, vox Deorum" :-).
Sulla: Yes I am familiar with that, but you have not answered the question.


> Sulla: Actually being a Priest is belonging to a selected club,
> in that they have a much more serious role to exercise in Nova
> Roma, by maintaining the Bonds with the Gods. They are above and
> beyond the status of a public servant. Magistrates are public
> servants, Religious officials are public servants in as far as they
> answer the questions and inquires of the public, but serve a much
> more important role in maintaining the contract with the Gods.

Public priests serve the Senate and the People by performing the
rites of the sacra publica. That is their role. They are not
prophets, or messiah, or gurus. They do not set dogma, or dictate
what people should believe. They are the people who perform the
rites, and they do so according to the Mos Maiorum.

Sulla: Interesting that you are trying to imply that I am placing them in the status of prophets or messiahs. Which I am not. I am stating is that they perform their rituals and mantain the contract between us, the People of Nova Roma, and the Gods. With that role carries a responsibility. But also it includes the authority to speak on behalf of the Gods (in the role of determining what days are Dies Fast, Nefasti, or to preform auguries to determine auspices) . This is clearly something that they have authority to do. This goes beyond the role of just being a public servant.

<<snipped>>

> Sulla: I would believe that the Augur(s) and Pontiffs have a
> much more valid interpretation of what is impious or not.

The Religio Romana has some particularities, senator. It is not
dogmatic, every paterfamilias is the high priest of the cultus
privatus of his familia, and public priests are there to perform the
rites of the cultus publicus. They are not there to tell what is
right or wrong; they are there to perform *rites*.

Sulla: They do more than just perform *rites* You as a practioner should be much more aware of their role, espeically since you were going to teach a course on the Religio. (I have quoted the Constitution below for you to see how broad their jurisdictional authority is)

Some bodies (like the Collegium Pontificium, for example) do have a
say in establishing what is the proper way to perform rites, or to
organize priesthoods. But that is all.

Sulla: I would like to hear from members of the College if that is just all that they do, before I would take your word on the matter, because according to the Constitution, they have much more authority than that. According to the Constitution of Nova Roma, the CP has the authority to do the following:

The collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs) shall be the highest of the priestly collegiae. It shall consist of the Pontifex Maximus, fourteen Pontifices, twelve flamines, six Sacerdotes Vestales, and the Rex and Regina Sacrorum. The collegium pontificum shall appoint its own members. The collegium pontificum shall have the following honors, powers, and responsibilities:
1.. To control the calendar, and determine when the festivals and dies fasti and dies nefasti shall occur, and what their effects shall be, within the boundaries of the example of ancient Rome;
2.. To have ritual responsibilities within the Religio Romana; and general authority over the institutions, rites, rituals, and priesthoods of the public Religio Romana;
3.. To issue decreta (decrees) on matters relevant to the Religio Romana and its own internal procedures (such decreta may not be overruled by laws passed in the comitia or Senatus consultum).
According to VI. B. 1 B, they have general authority over the institutions, rites, rituals and priesthoods of the Religio Romana. So, I disagree with your interpretation that their jurisdiction is limited to just *rites.* I quoted the above section from the Constitution so you can read it for yourself.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 6:30 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 535 Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


AVE SENATOR SVLLA

It's nice to see that you even forget to greet people when writing
them. :-)

Ave Manius Constantius,

I do not usually forget to greet people but when I am writing some of these posts in brief periods of time at work, sometimes mistakes happen.

> Then why was this declaration not published in the beginning of the
year out of seeking peace for the Palestinians...or the Kurds, or the
various African countries that have had on and off wars for years, or
the states of the Former Soviet Union like Chencya?

Do you think this point didn't come to our mind? After taking our
decision of expressing our will through that declaration some of us
posed himself this same question. For many obvious reasons we are
more emotionally connected to those wars where our soldiers/country
or our allied soldiers/countries are involved. Sad to say, but I must
admit I feel much more emotionally involved in the actual conflict
(as I was during the one in Kosovo and the one in Afghanistan) than
in other ones. It is unavoidable: this is the feeling of the vast
majority of what we call the Western world (and, in this moment, the
Arab one, too, even though it is less represented in Nova Roma) As a
consequence it is during these conflicts that many people can feel
hurted by certains behaviours.

Sulla: I do not know if it came to your guys minds until the very moment I brought it up. The point is, that you guys drafted a political statement pure and simple and altered Nova Roma's Neutrality clause, regardless if your intentions were noble or if they were totally self interest motivated. It is unacceptable to me, and to many citizens in Nova Roma. Not to mention that your action is probably in violation of the laws that are governing Nova Roma and her Religious institutions.
Vale,
Sulla


BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio
Qvaestor



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>If he really was thinking along lines of all gods aspects of or subordinate

>And where Ilahu-Gabal? Shades of Elijah (Eliyahu) but I thought the

> Sulla: War or no war, it is your duty to conduct the games in

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 6:42 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


AVE SENATOR SVLLA

> Sulla: War or no war, it is your duty to conduct the games in
the Religious matter that they need to be carried out.

Well, as a personal comment, I shall say that to my knowledge nobody
ever told here *how* an Aedile must "conduct games in the Religious
matter that they need to be carried out".\
Sulla: According to a previous post, it seems that the Aediles have gone to the CP before to ask for advice. Why did you guys fail to seek the advice of the CP before you issued your joint declaration? (I believe I asked this question before)

If the Collegium Pontificum could clearly define that, perhaps it
would be better for everyone, also for those citizens which decide to
dedicate their time during a whole year while presenting their
candidacy for this office. We would need something like "You must do
this and this... but if on the contrary you do this other thing, you
will be judged for impeachment"

Sulla: Why did you guys consult the CP in regards to the requirements for those festivals that have Religious connotations? I know that Pontiff Graecus has been very responsive to all requests, and even helped out with rituals for the Temple and other religious gatherings as well. I think the burden of this falls squarely with the Aediles and your cohort in failing to maintain the relationship that was already established by your superiors.
In this way the potential candidate could even choose if he is
willing to follow that list of rules. If we have no clear rules, we
can't accuse anybody.

Sulla: As Caius Municius posted before, "Ignorance is no excuse." You all knew there were religious ties to the Ludi, in particular this Ludi, you guys chose to ignore it and use your office to set a political statement pure and simple.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio
Qvaestor




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Yes. Except I'm period specific. So I disagree with your decision

> sends the wrong historical message. Sorry. If we are to educate

> should we not stick to facts as close as possible?

> Sulla: As I have stated before Manius Constantinus, during the

> Sulla: Look, I can care less if your for the war or against it,

> The point is that you and your cohort does not have the

> Not only that but, I sense hyprocrisy and I personally believe that

> and the neutrality decree

> and the blasphemy decreta.

> The point is, that you guys drafted a political statement pure and

> regardless if your intentions were noble or if they were totally

> It is unacceptable to me, and to many citizens in Nova Roma. Not

----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 7:26 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 535 Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


AVE SENATOR SVLLA

> The point is, that you guys drafted a political statement pure and
simple and altered Nova Roma's Neutrality clause,

You see..... now I should copy and past again. But I will not do it.
I hope you will read some of my messages were I already answered to
this point.

> regardless if your intentions were noble or if they were totally
self interest motivated.

Please, explein us how could we take advantage of having ludi were no
bloodshed takes place. Well, nobody will pay me for this! ;-)

> It is unacceptable to me, and to many citizens in Nova Roma. Not
to mention that your action is probably in violation of the laws that
are governing Nova Roma and her Religious institutions.

I don't believe so simply because I see no law nor priestly decretum
preventing me from signing adeclaration where I agree with what I
think is a sensitive purpose. Should such law or decretum exist in
the future, be sure I will follow it.

BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Sulla: According to a previous post, it seems that the Aediles

> Sulla: Why did you guys consult the CP in regards to the
>requirements for those festivals that have Religious connotations?
>I know that Pontiff Graecus has been very responsive to all
>requests, and even helped out with rituals for the Temple and other
>religious gatherings as well.

> I think the burden of this falls squarely with the Aediles and
>your cohort in failing to maintain the relationship that was already
>established by your superiors.

> Sulla: As Caius Municius posted before, "Ignorance is no

> I just remind you that last year (Gnaeus Salix Galaicus will remember
> it) you clearly stated that the chariot races you organized had six
> teams, but only during the Empire they were six, and under one
> particular emperor (I'm sorry, actually I can't remember whether he
> was Domitianus or Diocletianus and I haven't my sources with me).

> This means that your games too sent the wrong historical message,
> that you wasn't period specific, and that you, while trying to
> educate people, didn't stick to facts as close as possible.
>

> Well at this point I think our Consuls must address this issue once

> -----Original Message-----
> >From : Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@...>
>
> If you try hard enough you can of course read anything into anything
> and you are trying enough to find what you know perfectly well is not
> there. See a psychiatristic about your obsessive bigotry.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Rose
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 535 Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments


G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, L. Corneli nobilis.

Scripsisti:

> Well at this point I think our Consuls must address this issue once
and for all. If >Neutrality means truly neutral as to not take sides,
or if it is appropriate for our >magistrates to ignore the neutrality
decree and use their positions to influence and >grandstand.

At the risk of fanning the flames, I would like to point out that in
the republic one of the major, de facto purposes of the Aediles was
"to influence and grandstand" so as to win popular support for
advancement up the cursus honorum. I'm not suggesting that this is
what any current magistrates are doing, but that, if it were so, it's
not particularly a departure from the mos maiorum nor a reason for
criticism unless one opposes the career being advanced. And
magistrates ignoring the decrees of other magistrates kept the
advocati busy in the courts and the Tribuni Plebis occupied in the
comitia for much of the republic. This whole "res" is very Roman on
all sides.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: G.Porticus Brutis
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments



Please don't take this the wrong way.
I know I have not became a part of the conversations about the games but I really think the answer maybe as close as the nose on your faces. Why not just simple find out who may want the bloodily games than e-mail them a copy of the games "with blood" so they will be happy, but on the main list only show the one "without blood."
It's like Beer......"less filling...... tastes great".....Give the people what they want, and you have peace. Take away their right to choose and you have more e-mails about blood. OR JUST A REALLY GOOD CAT FIGHT!!......LOL
I think this could fix everything, unless I'm total of base, head stuck in the clouds, or just plan wrong.

G.Porticus Brutis



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The linguistic irony is, although Elagabal could be described as the

> of Emesa, Ba'al is not in fact part of his name. Ba'al is, I believe, a
> Punic word, and Emesa was settled by Levantine Bedouin Arabs.

> what happened to that meteor either.

> LOL! What a nit pick! But guilty as charged, although I did have

> disclaimer, and my other races I only had the four factiones
> represented.

> Well at this point I think our Consuls must address this issue once
>and for all. If Neutrality means truly neutral as to not take
>sides, or if it is appropriate for our magistrates to ignore the
>neutrality decree and use their positions to influence and

> And, you should know that when we are not sure of what to do or how

>
> So in the absense of legal precedent we are to be patterned upon

> If you wanted to make a valid neutral statement that would be
>patterned on ancient Rome, why not sponsor games for ALL those who
>died in this war!

> Salvete omnes
>
> As far as arguments against has turned into demagogic calls to
> Religion or Politics; as far as this quarrell about the ludi has

> conducted in such a bad manner; and as far as I see that no

> could be found for tomorrow -day for the story, I must say:
>
> I rennounce to write the Naumachiae for Ludi Megalesia.
>
> This doesn't mean I don't support the Declaration I signed. It

> however, that a constant pressure and a deviation of the purposes
> looked for with this statement (to be Honest with the people, to
> engage conscience&ludi...) achieved by those who doesn't support

> but bitterly accused the Aedile and his team of "Impiety, Policies
> against the Consuls' statement of neutrality" and some other

> can't then help for a quality tale of the Naumachiae.
>
> First responsable for this withdrawing of such an event like this

> me. I needn't to say who are behind the scene for such a

> They have been heard quite loudly last days in this Main List.
>
> vale bene,
>
> L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS

> To CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
> "And why are our pontifices and our augur (who should have something
> more constructive to do, like preparing the performance of a *real*
> religious ritual) so worried about such an unimportant thing?"
>
> I do my job Augur, I don't answer to you, and watching over the
> State Religio is part of our job as Pontificies.

> Oh, are the games really "an unimportant thing?" Well then wonder
> why did F Apule made such a to-do with his little "MEGALESIA LUDI:
> Joint Declaration II", must have been important to him.

> Hi everyone!
>
> I was looking at the NR mainlist and playing catch up. I am

> about the argument going on there about games, gods and Iraq. Can
> anyone enlighten me as to what this is all about?
>
> Thanks - Q.L.P

> It is clear that on that or on this occasion you used this argument
> for the mere whim of attacking.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:56 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Games and the ML


Hi everyone!

I was looking at the NR mainlist and playing catch up. I am confused
about the argument going on there about games, gods and Iraq. Can
anyone enlighten me as to what this is all about?

Thanks - Q.L.P


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salvete omnes
>
> As far as arguments against has turned into demagogic calls to
> Religion or Politics; as far as this quarrell about the ludi has

> conducted in such a bad manner; and as far as I see that no

> could be found for tomorrow -day for the story, I must say:
>
> I rennounce to write the Naumachiae for Ludi Megalesia.
>
> This doesn't mean I don't support the Declaration I signed. It

> however, that a constant pressure and a deviation of the purposes
> looked for with this statement (to be Honest with the people, to
> engage conscience&ludi...) achieved by those who doesn't support it
> but bitterly accused the Aedile and his team of "Impiety, Policies
> against the Consuls' statement of neutrality" and some other

> can't then help for a quality tale of the Naumachiae.
>
> First responsable for this withdrawing of such an event like this

> me. I needn't to say who are behind the scene for such a decisition.
> They have been heard quite loudly last days in this Main List.
>
> vale bene,
>
> L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:40 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Naumachiae


Salve, Tribune,

Your decision make us a pain so great to describe. But I really
undestand. I´m working on the next Ludi right after the Megalesia and
sometimes feel the same. I´m deeply concerned with the outcoming. I
testimony the good-will of Aedile Apulus Caesar to all citizens on
his endeavours. Let´s stop to bash him, it is really hard to us,
magistrates, work on that way. If there is a real complain, we have
our legal ways.

I hope this truggle generates an ´Aediles Manual´, if it will make
our office easy.

May Cibele and Ceres bless us...

(Like my colleague Curio who shaked a olive bunch, Aedil Faustus
descends of the rostra and put a small daisy on the feet of the
statue of Concordia)



Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Senior Plebeian Aedile



CERELIA LUDI: 12-19th April
Religious Hymns
Chariot races
Gladiatorial Shows (bloodly, do not stress, don´t sit on the first
chairs with a white toga!)
Literary Contest (subscriptions until 15th april)





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Didius Geminus Sceptius"
<sceptia@y...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> As far as arguments against has turned into demagogic calls to
> Religion or Politics; as far as this quarrell about the ludi has
been
> conducted in such a bad manner; and as far as I see that no
solution
> could be found for tomorrow -day for the story, I must say:
>
> I rennounce to write the Naumachiae for Ludi Megalesia.
>
> This doesn't mean I don't support the Declaration I signed. It
means,
> however, that a constant pressure and a deviation of the purposes
> looked for with this statement (to be Honest with the people, to
> engage conscience&ludi...) achieved by those who doesn't support it
> but bitterly accused the Aedile and his team of "Impiety, Policies
> against the Consuls' statement of neutrality" and some other
charges,
> can't then help for a quality tale of the Naumachiae.
>
> First responsable for this withdrawing of such an event like this
it's
> me. I needn't to say who are behind the scene for such a decisition.
> They have been heard quite loudly last days in this Main List.
>
> vale bene,
>
> L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave,
>
> Its a long story, the Ludi Megalesia are games that have strong

>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:56 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Games and the ML
>
>
> ]

> Ave Lucius Arminius,
>
> I have an issue with your statement to stop bashing Aedile Apulus

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:40 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Naumachiae
>
>
> Salve, Tribune,
>
> Your decision make us a pain so great to describe. But I really
> undestand. I´m working on the next Ludi right after the Megalesia

> sometimes feel the same. I´m deeply concerned with the outcoming.

> testimony the good-will of Aedile Apulus Caesar to all citizens

> his endeavours. Let´s stop to bash him, it is really hard to us,
> magistrates, work on that way. If there is a real complain, we

> our legal ways.
>
> I hope this truggle generates an ´Aediles Manual´, if it will

> our office easy.
>
> May Cibele and Ceres bless us...
>
> (Like my colleague Curio who shaked a olive bunch, Aedil Faustus
> descends of the rostra and put a small daisy on the feet of the
> statue of Concordia)
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
> Senior Plebeian Aedile
>
>
>
> CERELIA LUDI: 12-19th April
> Religious Hymns
> Chariot races
> Gladiatorial Shows (bloodly, do not stress, don´t sit on the

> chairs with a white toga!)
> Literary Contest (subscriptions until 15th april)
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Didius Geminus Sceptius"
> <sceptia@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes
> >
> > As far as arguments against has turned into demagogic calls to
> > Religion or Politics; as far as this quarrell about the ludi

> been
> > conducted in such a bad manner; and as far as I see that no
> solution
> > could be found for tomorrow -day for the story, I must say:
> >
> > I rennounce to write the Naumachiae for Ludi Megalesia.
> >
> > This doesn't mean I don't support the Declaration I signed. It
> means,
> > however, that a constant pressure and a deviation of the

> > looked for with this statement (to be Honest with the people,

> > engage conscience&ludi...) achieved by those who doesn't

> > but bitterly accused the Aedile and his team of "Impiety,

> > against the Consuls' statement of neutrality" and some other
> charges,
> > can't then help for a quality tale of the Naumachiae.
> >
> > First responsable for this withdrawing of such an event like

> it's
> > me. I needn't to say who are behind the scene for such a

> > They have been heard quite loudly last days in this Main List.
> >
> > vale bene,
> >
> > L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
>
>
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>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > Sulla: I would believe that all Religious officials answer to
> > the Gods who are a higher authoirty than the People, would you
> > not agree Praetor?
>
> There is a Latin phrase that reads: "Vox Populi, vox Deorum" :-).
> Sulla: Yes I am familiar with that, but you have not answered the
> question.

> Sulla: Interesting that you are trying to imply that I am
> placing them in the status of prophets or messiahs. Which I am
> not. I am stating is that they perform their rituals and mantain
> the contract between us, the People of Nova Roma, and the Gods.
> With that role carries a responsibility. But also it includes the
> authority to speak on behalf of the Gods (in the role of
> determining what days are Dies Fast, Nefasti, or to preform
> auguries to determine auspices) . This is clearly something that
> they have authority to do.

> This goes beyond the role of just being a public servant.

> Sulla: They do more than just perform *rites* You as a
> practioner should be much more aware of their role, espeically
> since you were going to teach a course on the Religio. (I have
> quoted the Constitution below for you to see how broad their
> jurisdictional authority is)
>
> Some bodies (like the Collegium Pontificium, for example) do have
> a say in establishing what is the proper way to perform rites, or
> to organize priesthoods. But that is all.
>
> Sulla: I would like to hear from members of the College if that
> is just all that they do, before I would take your word on the
> matter, because according to the Constitution, they have much more
> authority than that. According to the Constitution of Nova Roma,
> the CP has the authority to do the following:

> The collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs) shall be the
> highest of the priestly collegiae. It shall consist of the Pontifex
> Maximus, fourteen Pontifices, twelve flamines, six Sacerdotes
> Vestales, and the Rex and Regina Sacrorum. The collegium pontificum
> shall appoint its own members. The collegium pontificum shall have
> the following honors, powers, and responsibilities:
> 1.. To control the calendar, and determine when the festivals
> and dies fasti and dies nefasti shall occur, and what their effects
> shall be, within the boundaries of the example of ancient Rome;
> 2.. To have ritual responsibilities within the Religio Romana;
> and general authority over the institutions, rites, rituals, and
> priesthoods of the public Religio Romana;
> 3.. To issue decreta (decrees) on matters relevant to the
> Religio Romana and its own internal procedures (such decreta may
> not be overruled by laws passed in the comitia or Senatus
> consultum).
> According to VI. B. 1 B, they have general authority over the
> institutions, rites, rituals and priesthoods of the Religio
> Romana.
>
> So, I disagree with your interpretation that their jurisdiction is
> limited to just *rites.* I quoted the above section from the
> Constitution so you can read it for yourself.

>I don't think that analysis of the etymology of ba'al and its

>
>Yes, Emesa then is Homs now; there were other temples in the city as well,

>(which, with various vowels, I believe it still does). The Syriac
>“Ilahu-Gabal“ was Greco-Latinized into Elagabal(us), in the same way Plinius
>was Anglized into Pliny: the old nip-and-tuck. It appears as though
>Elagabalus took the titles of Sol Invictus sometime in the late Antonine
>period.
>

>
>name “domna“ mean something substantially different: words for excrement and
>bodily decay come from the “dmn“ root; black, yes, but not a happy kind of
>black, as if the baby were born with black hair or dark skin. There's not a
>

>
>One cryptic footnote by a scholar mentioned that Julia “Mamaea“ was derived

>I don't even want to get into “So(h)aemias.“ Oy.
>

> Salvete Quirites; et salve, Sulla.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius
> Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > > Sulla: I would believe that all Religious
> officials answer to
> > > the Gods who are a higher authoirty than the
> People, would you
> > > not agree Praetor?
> >
> > There is a Latin phrase that reads: "Vox Populi,
> vox Deorum" :-).
> > Sulla: Yes I am familiar with that, but you have
> not answered the
> > question.
>
> That phrase means that there is no higher authority
> than the People;
> the will of the People is the will of the Gods.
>