>
> Avete citizes!
>
> The factio Praesina already has flag-logo-symbol, made by Julilla
> Sempronia Magna.
>
> See the green symbol in:
>
>
>

> SA3FU_422mhpP162M-a63qWIHNF-HTY_P4DSTEjXpxnjw9sEkU/Praesina%
> 20Logos/factio-praesina.jpg
>
>
> Valete!
>
> Salix Galaicus
> Scriba Ludorum

> Salve Salix,
>
> Please try that URL address again, page connot be found message.
>
> Regards
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>

> And now? There are several sizes:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/files/Praesina%20Logos/
>
> Salix Galaicus
> Scriba Ludorum
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus"
> <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve Salix,
> >
> > Please try that URL address again, page connot be found message.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >

>
> Salve,
>
> I have ammended your profile so that it reads that you are

> office. Your details should now show appear with the other

>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
> Scriba Censoris.
>

>As all other Magistarti already have agreed as to who they want to
>work with only one Magistarte is left for You, that is Senior
>Plebeian Aedile Illustrus Lucius Arminius Faustus. You are expected
>to handle the funds of the Senior Plebeian Aedile, but as no such
>funds will be assigned, I recommend that You as tradition bids, try
>to be a good assistant to the Senior Plebeian Aedile in other fields
>in his staff. I suggest that You contact Illustrus Lucius Arminius
>Faustus at <lafaustus@...> to discuss your work together
>during this year. If You have any questions, please feel free to ask!

>Thanks! :-) I am ready to work...give me more to do please! :-)
>
>Publius Tarquitius Rufus

> Salve
>
> I have a question on Nova Roman Constitutional Law. Does the Veto

>
> I think I know the answer but better safe than sorry.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: christyacb
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 9:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Question for Long-Time Members


Salvete,

I found the Nova Roma site some time ago, but decided to do a bit
of research before joining. In doing so, I've had a lovely time
reading the entire message board history from 1998 onwards. Wow, what
a lively group! Please, don't take my post as anything but a series
of sincere questions. After all, I've read 4 years plus worth of
messages in 3 weeks, so past history is still rather fresh for me.

My questions are:

1. For those of you remaining active from the beginning, what is your
perception of how Nova Roma has evolved as compared to what it began?

I think that Nova Roma has grown, but that the number of citizens that are listed in the Album Civium is extremely over-exaggerated. I do not believe that Nova Roma has more than 400 citizens total and maybe about 175 citizens who paid the tax. I think that this is an increase from last year and I hope that every year Nova Roma grows more and with that growth there will be less of a turn-around. I also think that we have served a purpose in debunking inaccurate information in regards to ancient Rome. (You can check the archieves about the previous "Was Gladiator accurate threads.") We also are observed by scholars who view us as an living experiement and in that sense by them observing us allows those scholars to get a better picture as to how the ancients actually conducted themselves, back in the beginning there were times when there were doubts if we would actually survive (the first resignation of Flavius Vedius Germancius is a perfect example of that, the Civil War was another example of that as well.) I can say that for myself, I have gained much more insight and knowledge about the ancients being in Nova Roma than if I just read books, my experience has given me a much more insightful preception as to how it might have been for the ancients, espeically when in the Forum.
2. Do you still feel that there is a "clique" of people who exert
primary control over the group rather than a fully integrated group?
(This taken from the 1999 debacle and a few other episodes that
brought that up in many members)

Nope, since then we have set regulations as to how new members of the Board of Directors are brought on...and with the establishment of the Comitia's the preception of a clique has dimished to the point that it is now jokes recalled in fond recollections. From the time NR started it had 4 Senators, it took the Dictatorship of Flavius Vedius Germancius (back in 1999, if I recall correctly) to increase the size of the Senate and since that time the Senate has steadily grown and will continue to grow as more and more citizens take an active interest into shaping the direction of Nova Roma. Just to give a few footnotes:

In 1998, Senate was consisted of 4 people all residence of the East Coast;
In 1999, the first non-East Coast person was elected Consul and the Senate was expanded to include Europeans and people outside of the East Coast (Senate had 13 people);
In 2000, we had elected people who were not citizens when Nova Roma first began (Senate 23 people);
In 2001, we re-elected our Founders and had the first European run as a candidate (Senate 22 people)'
In 2003, the first European was elected as Consul (Senate 21 people);

3. What kind of progress do you think the group has made towards the
original goals?

Well we have implemented a tax (Dues structure) to give Nova Roma a stable source of revenue that does not rely on just the donations of citizens;
We have establised a better Constitution than our first one;
The execution of ad hoc law has been essentially eliminated;
We have a system to more accurately report our true numbers of citizens;
We have begun implmeneted rules that have started to protect the voice of the people from potential abuse;
We have streamlined application processes (instead of having applications surface mailed to the Censors residences), made the Censors office a better organized office kept in a more efficent database than on Excel (Thats where it used to be kept);
We have established separate lists dedicated to specific areas of Roman Study (Laws, Religio, Arts, Military, etc etc);
We have established the Senate and the Comitia's and in addition to that we have established working procedures for all three Comitias and the Senate itself;
All laws and regulations are accessible to the People at any time and updates usually do not take more than a few days to be posted;


These are just some of the improvements that have been done, that I can think of at 11 pm (in California).

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Active citizen from day 1



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve Quintus Cassius,
>
> Firstly, I have paid my taxes. Unfortunately, due to
> problems (which I think all citizens have had) with
> PayPal, my tax payment was posted two days before the
> deadline by International Money Order. Secondly, as
> far as I know, I am not a senator, although I am
> invested with propraetorian imperium.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Salve,
>
> How can the ordinary citizen be expected to pay their
> taxes when
> office holders and Senators do not? The following
> officals covered
> under the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi have
> not paid their
> taxes as of May 1, 2003 and in accordance with the Lex
> Vedia Assidui
> et Capiti Censi are no longer eligible to hold office
> (Link:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-i.html:
>
> Flaverius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus, Accensus of
> the Sr. Consul's
> Cohors
>
> Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, Plebian Aedile
>
> Quintius Sertorius, PROPRAETOR Canada Occidentalis
>
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, PROPRAETOR Canada
> Orientalis
>
> Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia
>
> Senator Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura, PROPRAETOR
> Australia
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
> (I paid my taxes, did you?)
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
> http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile
> - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone

> Salve Quintus Cassius,
>
> Firstly, I have paid my taxes. Unfortunately, due to
> problems (which I think all citizens have had) with
> PayPal, my tax payment was posted two days before the
> deadline by International Money Order. Secondly, as
> far as I know, I am not a senator, although I am
> invested with propraetorian imperium.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Salve,
>
> How can the ordinary citizen be expected to pay their
> taxes when
> office holders and Senators do not? The following
> officals covered
> under the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi have
> not paid their
> taxes as of May 1, 2003 and in accordance with the Lex
> Vedia Assidui
> et Capiti Censi are no longer eligible to hold office
> (Link:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-i.html:
>
> Flaverius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus, Accensus of
> the Sr. Consul's
> Cohors
>
> Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, Plebian Aedile
>
> Quintius Sertorius, PROPRAETOR Canada Occidentalis
>
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, PROPRAETOR Canada
> Orientalis
>
> Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia
>
> Senator Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura, PROPRAETOR
> Australia
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
> (I paid my taxes, did you?)
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
> http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile
> - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone

> Ave!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: christyacb
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 9:23 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Question for Long-Time Members
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; M Arminius Maior ; Lista_questores
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation



Salve, Senator Marcus Arminius Maior had a problem on the computer HD and lost everything these days. He is going to pay late this year, but pay as ever. And some citizens of Mother Italy had also problems with the servers. This is exactly the kind of email and public bashing Nova Roma DOESN`T need. As a magistrate, I repudiate the ill-intentions of this citizen with this kind of comunication. I don´t know how is on the US, but on Brazil there is a very severe law forbidding any kind of public comunication of debt and humiliation ´in consequentiam´. The album civium is already open to anyone see the status, but sure it is not right ´throwing on the face´ on main list. It is against all romanitas NR wants to spread, and a treat to the honour of the citizens with some kind of problem. Anyone may pay the taxes. But also much more virtue is needed to really help NR. Vale,L. Arminius FaustusQUAESTOR
Salve,

Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia


Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
(I paid my taxes, did you?)



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
O melhor e-mail gratuito da internet: 6MB de espaço, antivírus, acesso POP3, filtro contra spam.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave Lucius Arminius,
>
> Taxes have not been a secret in Nova Roma, we each have had an

>
> In the end, do not get upset at Q. Cassius for pointing out

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; M Arminius Maior ;

> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
>
> Salve, Senator Marcus Arminius Maior had a problem on the

> Salve,
>
> Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
> (I paid my taxes, did you?)
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> O melhor e-mail gratuito da internet: 6MB de espaço, antivírus,

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Salve, Senator Marcus Arminius Maior had a problem on the

> Salve,
>
> Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
> (I paid my taxes, did you?)
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> O melhor e-mail gratuito da internet: 6MB de espaço, antivírus,

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation


Salve, Senator,

Yes, the information is public.

Sulla: I know that.

But if someone wants to see the debt,
goes search.

Sulla: They can.

Making this speech free and public, even to people not
interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.

Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now have a legal situation where Senators, Magistrates and apparitores are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. This is a matter that the people MUST be aware of. Magistrates are going to lose their offices, we are going to need a new election for the Plebian Aedileship.

On some countries,
this is forbidden by law.

Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of the law? I would really like to know the cause of action that would be used to file a complaint, especially as it relates to Nova Roma.
There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
humiliation on the email.

Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories who are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.

Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very serious
magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.

Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be handled above board, with the People notified that we now have a legal situation...with the people informed that we will need to have a new election to fill those magisterial positions...or would you have like this down secretly with no information being presented to the ML....I can tell you I would prefer to have the People know upfront that we have this information and here is whats going on and here is why we are taking these steps. Secret investigations, secret committees, secret actions are dangerous Quaestor and that type of atmosphere builds distrust and destroys the People's confidence.

Not Cassius
himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.

Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.

The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.

Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not. This is a voluntary tax, you can pay it or not. Each citizen in Nova Roma has a conscious choice on whether or not they are going to pay Nova Roma. For most citizens there is absolutely no repercussion if they decide they do not want to pay a tax. A debt on the other hand is entirely different because it is something that is owed, such as money, goods or services because there is an obligation or liability to pay. That does not exist in Nova Roma because we are a voluntary organication.

This is my
opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes really
breaks all the concordia between the citizens.

Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius Maior,
soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
accusation against his honour.

Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for you...and you knew about this for sometime why did you not offer to pay for your own Paterfamilia's tax? This way you would have helped him to avoid this unpleasantness.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Q. Cassius Calvus. Salve.
>
> I mailed my original check on 4/07/03 with an SAS postcard enclosed
to the P.O. Box in Maine. I did not receive a response but
investigated with the proper magistrates. No record of my check was
found. I have mailed a new check. I do not use PayPal.
Respectfully. F Gal Aur Sec.

> Your post reminds me of the Archdioceses of Boston's response to

> Boston Globe reporting the publicly released court records

> the widespread sexual abuse by priests in the Archdiocese and the
> subsequent cover up and hush money paid by the Church. Rather than
> accept responsiblity for the failure to protect the children in the
> Archdiocese of Boston, the Archdiocese chooses to blame the Globe

> meddling and attempting to besmirch the character of the Church.
>
> Same case you don't like the message so blame the messenger. About
> what I expect these days. Nova Roma has long since abandoned any
> sense of being a republican democracy is now a complete farce and
> hypocracy.
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve, Senator Marcus Arminius Maior had a problem on the
> computer HD and lost everything these days. He is going to pay late
> this year, but pay as ever. And some citizens of Mother Italy had
> also problems with the servers. This is exactly the kind of email

> public bashing Nova Roma DOESN`T need. As a magistrate, I repudiate
> the ill-intentions of this citizen with this kind of comunication.

> don´t know how is on the US, but on Brazil there is a very severe

> forbidding any kind of public comunication of debt and humiliation
> ´in consequentiam´. The album civium is already open to anyone see
> the status, but sure it is not right ´throwing on the face´ on main
> list. It is against all romanitas NR wants to spread, and a treat

> the honour of the citizens with some kind of problem. Anyone may

> the taxes. But also much more virtue is needed to really help NR.
> Vale,L. Arminius FaustusQUAESTOR
> > Salve,
> >
> > Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia
> >
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Q. Cassius Calvus
> > (I paid my taxes, did you?)
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Mail
> > O melhor e-mail gratuito da internet: 6MB de espaço, antivírus,
> acesso POP3, filtro contra spam.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave Quaestor,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
> Salve, Senator,
>
> Yes, the information is public.
>
> Sulla: I know that.
>
> But if someone wants to see the debt,
> goes search.
>
> Sulla: They can.
>
> Making this speech free and public, even to people not
> interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now have

>
> On some countries,
> this is forbidden by law.
>
> Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of the

> There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
> humiliation on the email.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories who

>
> Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
> and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very serious
> magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be

>
> Not Cassius
> himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.
>
> Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.
>
> The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.
>
> Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not. This is

>
> This is my
> opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes

> breaks all the concordia between the citizens.
>
> Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
>
> I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius Maior,
> soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> accusation against his honour.
>
> Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for you...and

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:39 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation


Salve Senator,

On Brazil is forbidden making a debt public news, and announce it.
There is a Justice and Judges to deal with debts already, not the
public opinion.

You are free by constitution to speech, but are not free to
humiliate.

L. Arminius
Quaestor


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Quaestor,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
> Salve, Senator,
>
> Yes, the information is public.
>
> Sulla: I know that.
>
> But if someone wants to see the debt,
> goes search.
>
> Sulla: They can.
>
> Making this speech free and public, even to people not
> interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now have
a legal situation where Senators, Magistrates and apparitores are now
in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. This is a
matter that the people MUST be aware of. Magistrates are going to
lose their offices, we are going to need a new election for the
Plebian Aedileship.
>
> On some countries,
> this is forbidden by law.
>
> Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of the
law? I would really like to know the cause of action that would be
used to file a complaint, especially as it relates to Nova Roma.
> There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
> humiliation on the email.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories who
are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.
>
> Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
> and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very serious
> magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be
handled above board, with the People notified that we now have a
legal situation...with the people informed that we will need to have
a new election to fill those magisterial positions...or would you
have like this down secretly with no information being presented to
the ML....I can tell you I would prefer to have the People know
upfront that we have this information and here is whats going on and
here is why we are taking these steps. Secret investigations, secret
committees, secret actions are dangerous Quaestor and that type of
atmosphere builds distrust and destroys the People's confidence.
>
> Not Cassius
> himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.
>
> Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.
>
> The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.
>
> Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not. This is
a voluntary tax, you can pay it or not. Each citizen in Nova Roma
has a conscious choice on whether or not they are going to pay Nova
Roma. For most citizens there is absolutely no repercussion if they
decide they do not want to pay a tax. A debt on the other hand is
entirely different because it is something that is owed, such as
money, goods or services because there is an obligation or liability
to pay. That does not exist in Nova Roma because we are a voluntary
organication.
>
> This is my
> opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes
really
> breaks all the concordia between the citizens.
>
> Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
>
> I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius Maior,
> soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> accusation against his honour.
>
> Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for you...and
you knew about this for sometime why did you not offer to pay for
your own Paterfamilia's tax? This way you would have helped him to
avoid this unpleasantness.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave,
>
> And again, you have avoided the issue, this is not a debt. Because

>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:39 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
> Salve Senator,
>
> On Brazil is forbidden making a debt public news, and announce

> There is a Justice and Judges to deal with debts already, not the
> public opinion.
>
> You are free by constitution to speech, but are not free to
> humiliate.
>
> L. Arminius
> Quaestor
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Quaestor,
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
> >
> >
> > Salve, Senator,
> >
> > Yes, the information is public.
> >
> > Sulla: I know that.
> >
> > But if someone wants to see the debt,
> > goes search.
> >
> > Sulla: They can.
> >
> > Making this speech free and public, even to people not
> > interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now

> a legal situation where Senators, Magistrates and apparitores are

> in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. This

> matter that the people MUST be aware of. Magistrates are going

> lose their offices, we are going to need a new election for the
> Plebian Aedileship.
> >
> > On some countries,
> > this is forbidden by law.
> >
> > Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of

> law? I would really like to know the cause of action that would

> used to file a complaint, especially as it relates to Nova Roma.
> > There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
> > humiliation on the email.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories

> are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.
> >
> > Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
> > and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very

> > magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be
> handled above board, with the People notified that we now have a
> legal situation...with the people informed that we will need to

> a new election to fill those magisterial positions...or would you
> have like this down secretly with no information being presented

> the ML....I can tell you I would prefer to have the People know
> upfront that we have this information and here is whats going on

> here is why we are taking these steps. Secret investigations,

> committees, secret actions are dangerous Quaestor and that type

> atmosphere builds distrust and destroys the People's confidence.
> >
> > Not Cassius
> > himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.
> >
> > Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.
> >
> > The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.
> >
> > Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not.

> a voluntary tax, you can pay it or not. Each citizen in Nova

> has a conscious choice on whether or not they are going to pay

> Roma. For most citizens there is absolutely no repercussion if

> decide they do not want to pay a tax. A debt on the other hand

> entirely different because it is something that is owed, such as
> money, goods or services because there is an obligation or

> to pay. That does not exist in Nova Roma because we are a

> organication.
> >
> > This is my
> > opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes
> really
> > breaks all the concordia between the citizens.
> >
> > Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to

> >
> > I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius

> > soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> > accusation against his honour.
> >
> > Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for

> you knew about this for sometime why did you not offer to pay for
> your own Paterfamilia's tax? This way you would have helped him

> avoid this unpleasantness.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Q. Cassius Calvus. Salve.
>
> I mailed my original check on 4/07/03 with an SAS postcard enclosed

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:08 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation


Ave,

Anyway, debt - perhaps not ´legal´, but still moral obligation. Debt
is a good word here. I´m not trying to apply macronational laws, just
´the law of good sense adressing on the list´. There is no legal
punishment for breaking this law, just a deep sadness like I do have
now.



L. Arminius




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> And again, you have avoided the issue, this is not a debt. Because
Nova Roma is a voluntary organization. One is free to pay the tax or
not.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:39 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
> Salve Senator,
>
> On Brazil is forbidden making a debt public news, and announce
it.
> There is a Justice and Judges to deal with debts already, not the
> public opinion.
>
> You are free by constitution to speech, but are not free to
> humiliate.
>
> L. Arminius
> Quaestor
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Quaestor,
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
> >
> >
> > Salve, Senator,
> >
> > Yes, the information is public.
> >
> > Sulla: I know that.
> >
> > But if someone wants to see the debt,
> > goes search.
> >
> > Sulla: They can.
> >
> > Making this speech free and public, even to people not
> > interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now
have
> a legal situation where Senators, Magistrates and apparitores are
now
> in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. This
is a
> matter that the people MUST be aware of. Magistrates are going
to
> lose their offices, we are going to need a new election for the
> Plebian Aedileship.
> >
> > On some countries,
> > this is forbidden by law.
> >
> > Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of
the
> law? I would really like to know the cause of action that would
be
> used to file a complaint, especially as it relates to Nova Roma.
> > There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
> > humiliation on the email.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories
who
> are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.
> >
> > Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
> > and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very
serious
> > magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be
> handled above board, with the People notified that we now have a
> legal situation...with the people informed that we will need to
have
> a new election to fill those magisterial positions...or would you
> have like this down secretly with no information being presented
to
> the ML....I can tell you I would prefer to have the People know
> upfront that we have this information and here is whats going on
and
> here is why we are taking these steps. Secret investigations,
secret
> committees, secret actions are dangerous Quaestor and that type
of
> atmosphere builds distrust and destroys the People's confidence.
> >
> > Not Cassius
> > himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.
> >
> > Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.
> >
> > The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.
> >
> > Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not.
This is
> a voluntary tax, you can pay it or not. Each citizen in Nova
Roma
> has a conscious choice on whether or not they are going to pay
Nova
> Roma. For most citizens there is absolutely no repercussion if
they
> decide they do not want to pay a tax. A debt on the other hand
is
> entirely different because it is something that is owed, such as
> money, goods or services because there is an obligation or
liability
> to pay. That does not exist in Nova Roma because we are a
voluntary
> organication.
> >
> > This is my
> > opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes
> really
> > breaks all the concordia between the citizens.
> >
> > Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to
disagree.
> >
> > I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius
Maior,
> > soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> > accusation against his honour.
> >
> > Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for
you...and
> you knew about this for sometime why did you not offer to pay for
> your own Paterfamilia's tax? This way you would have helped him
to
> avoid this unpleasantness.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:08 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation


Ave,

Anyway, debt - perhaps not ´legal´, but still moral obligation. Debt
is a good word here. I´m not trying to apply macronational laws, just
´the law of good sense adressing on the list´. There is no legal
punishment for breaking this law, just a deep sadness like I do have
now.



L. Arminius




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> And again, you have avoided the issue, this is not a debt. Because
Nova Roma is a voluntary organization. One is free to pay the tax or
not.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:39 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
> Salve Senator,
>
> On Brazil is forbidden making a debt public news, and announce
it.
> There is a Justice and Judges to deal with debts already, not the
> public opinion.
>
> You are free by constitution to speech, but are not free to
> humiliate.
>
> L. Arminius
> Quaestor
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Quaestor,
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
> >
> >
> > Salve, Senator,
> >
> > Yes, the information is public.
> >
> > Sulla: I know that.
> >
> > But if someone wants to see the debt,
> > goes search.
> >
> > Sulla: They can.
> >
> > Making this speech free and public, even to people not
> > interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now
have
> a legal situation where Senators, Magistrates and apparitores are
now
> in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. This
is a
> matter that the people MUST be aware of. Magistrates are going
to
> lose their offices, we are going to need a new election for the
> Plebian Aedileship.
> >
> > On some countries,
> > this is forbidden by law.
> >
> > Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of
the
> law? I would really like to know the cause of action that would
be
> used to file a complaint, especially as it relates to Nova Roma.
> > There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
> > humiliation on the email.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories
who
> are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.
> >
> > Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
> > and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very
serious
> > magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be
> handled above board, with the People notified that we now have a
> legal situation...with the people informed that we will need to
have
> a new election to fill those magisterial positions...or would you
> have like this down secretly with no information being presented
to
> the ML....I can tell you I would prefer to have the People know
> upfront that we have this information and here is whats going on
and
> here is why we are taking these steps. Secret investigations,
secret
> committees, secret actions are dangerous Quaestor and that type
of
> atmosphere builds distrust and destroys the People's confidence.
> >
> > Not Cassius
> > himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.
> >
> > Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.
> >
> > The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.
> >
> > Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not.
This is
> a voluntary tax, you can pay it or not. Each citizen in Nova
Roma
> has a conscious choice on whether or not they are going to pay
Nova
> Roma. For most citizens there is absolutely no repercussion if
they
> decide they do not want to pay a tax. A debt on the other hand
is
> entirely different because it is something that is owed, such as
> money, goods or services because there is an obligation or
liability
> to pay. That does not exist in Nova Roma because we are a
voluntary
> organication.
> >
> > This is my
> > opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes
> really
> > breaks all the concordia between the citizens.
> >
> > Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to
disagree.
> >
> > I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius
Maior,
> > soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> > accusation against his honour.
> >
> > Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for
you...and
> you knew about this for sometime why did you not offer to pay for
> your own Paterfamilia's tax? This way you would have helped him
to
> avoid this unpleasantness.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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ADVERTISEMENT




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Do not run of the subject. You really are free to tell everything

> desire, and try humiliating anyone. But now feel the consequences,

> public disagreement of your attitude.
>

> I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius Maior,
> soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> accusation against his honour.
>
> L. Arminius Faustus
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:08 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation


Ave,

Anyway, debt - perhaps not ´legal´, but still moral obligation. Debt
is a good word here. I´m not trying to apply macronational laws, just
´the law of good sense adressing on the list´. There is no legal
punishment for breaking this law, just a deep sadness like I do have
now.



L. Arminius




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> And again, you have avoided the issue, this is not a debt. Because
Nova Roma is a voluntary organization. One is free to pay the tax or
not.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:39 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
>
>
> Salve Senator,
>
> On Brazil is forbidden making a debt public news, and announce
it.
> There is a Justice and Judges to deal with debts already, not the
> public opinion.
>
> You are free by constitution to speech, but are not free to
> humiliate.
>
> L. Arminius
> Quaestor
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Quaestor,
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
> >
> >
> > Salve, Senator,
> >
> > Yes, the information is public.
> >
> > Sulla: I know that.
> >
> > But if someone wants to see the debt,
> > goes search.
> >
> > Sulla: They can.
> >
> > Making this speech free and public, even to people not
> > interested, oh my, this is disgusting humiliation.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, it is informing the Populace that we now
have
> a legal situation where Senators, Magistrates and apparitores are
now
> in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. This
is a
> matter that the people MUST be aware of. Magistrates are going
to
> lose their offices, we are going to need a new election for the
> Plebian Aedileship.
> >
> > On some countries,
> > this is forbidden by law.
> >
> > Sulla: Really? To exercise free speech is in violation of
the
> law? I would really like to know the cause of action that would
be
> used to file a complaint, especially as it relates to Nova Roma.
> > There was no necessity to EXPOSE magistrates of NR to public
> > humiliation on the email.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, we now have magistrates, and apparitories
who
> are now in violation of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.
> >
> > Cassius Calvus did a very serious mistake
> > and it deeply grieves me, exposing some very very very
serious
> > magistrates of the Res Publica without any necessity.
> >
> > Sulla: I disagree, let me explain, Either this issue can be
> handled above board, with the People notified that we now have a
> legal situation...with the people informed that we will need to
have
> a new election to fill those magisterial positions...or would you
> have like this down secretly with no information being presented
to
> the ML....I can tell you I would prefer to have the People know
> upfront that we have this information and here is whats going on
and
> here is why we are taking these steps. Secret investigations,
secret
> committees, secret actions are dangerous Quaestor and that type
of
> atmosphere builds distrust and destroys the People's confidence.
> >
> > Not Cassius
> > himself, but each citizen with this UNHAPPY idea.
> >
> > Sulla: I do not undersetand what your trying to state here.
> >
> > The debts are public, but shall not be adressed to public.
> >
> > Sulla: If this was a debt I would agree, but it is not.
This is
> a voluntary tax, you can pay it or not. Each citizen in Nova
Roma
> has a conscious choice on whether or not they are going to pay
Nova
> Roma. For most citizens there is absolutely no repercussion if
they
> decide they do not want to pay a tax. A debt on the other hand
is
> entirely different because it is something that is owed, such as
> money, goods or services because there is an obligation or
liability
> to pay. That does not exist in Nova Roma because we are a
voluntary
> organication.
> >
> > This is my
> > opinion and I adress to all NR comunity that some attitudes
> really
> > breaks all the concordia between the citizens.
> >
> > Sulla: Thats fine, I guess we will have to agree to
disagree.
> >
> > I´m sad. I´m a testimony of the excellent work of Arminius
Maior,
> > soul of the Res Publica, and he doesn´t need such a unworthy
> > accusation against his honour.
> >
> > Sulla: Quaestor, if this situation is so troubling for
you...and
> you knew about this for sometime why did you not offer to pay for
> your own Paterfamilia's tax? This way you would have helped him
to
> avoid this unpleasantness.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> Do not run of the subject. You really are free to tell everything you
> desire, and try humiliating anyone. But now feel the consequences, a
> public disagreement of your attitude.
>
> Everything is allowed, but not everything is worthy to be done. I´m
> not forbidding you to make any speech you desire, talk if you desire.
> But ´who says everything that wants, hear what not want´. You are
> free to use you right to speech to hurt, but fell the consequences to
> be hurted.
>
> Again as magistrate, as quaestor, I express my public sadness with
> this poor use of the main list, the warping of tax question that
> contributes on nothing with the public Concordia. This is my point.
> Honor and honouring. And honor is sure more important than US$ 6,00-
> 25,00.
>
> L. Arminius
> Quaestor

> We have established separate lists dedicated to
> specific areas of Roman Study (Laws, Religio, Arts,
> Military, etc etc);
> We have established the Senate and the Comitia's
> and in addition to that we have established working
> procedures for all three Comitias and the Senate
> itself;
> All laws and regulations are accessible to the
> People at any time and updates usually do not take
> more than a few days to be posted;
>
>
> These are just some of the improvements that have
> been done, that I can think of at 11 pm (in
> California).
>
> I hope this answers some of your questions.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Active citizen from day 1
>
>
>

> T Labienus Fortunatus Consul Q Cassio Calvo Quiritibusque SPD
>

>
> Second, any snail-mail payment that is postmarked on or before the

> Aprilis is still considered to have made the deadline. Therefore,

> little premature to begin creating lists of assidui and capite

> wait a week or so before pointing accusatory fingers.

> My attitude is that I am sick and tired of the
> wink-wink nod-nod
> shenanagahns that go on with Nova Roman law. Nova
> Roman law is
> conveniently ignored when a person is popular and or
> powerful.

> I have no doubt
> for one minute that if I had failed to pay my taxes
> to Nova Roma I'd
> been removed from Rogator one second after the
> stroke of midnight.

> Why? Because I'm not one of the "beautiful people"
> of Nova Roma. I
> don't play the back room smoking cigars game of
> wink-wink nod-nod.

----- Original Message -----
From: politicog
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Question for Long-Time Members



--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@...>
wrote:

> We have established separate lists dedicated to
> specific areas of Roman Study (Laws, Religio, Arts,
> Military, etc etc);
> We have established the Senate and the Comitia's
> and in addition to that we have established working
> procedures for all three Comitias and the Senate
> itself;
> All laws and regulations are accessible to the
> People at any time and updates usually do not take
> more than a few days to be posted;
>
>
> These are just some of the improvements that have
> been done, that I can think of at 11 pm (in
> California).
>
> I hope this answers some of your questions.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Active citizen from day 1
>
>
>

As one of the newer citizens, I appreciated Lucius
Cornelius Sulla Felix's rundown of Nova Roman
historian (since as a macronational I have had
undergraduate studies in history).
Just a question for anyone who knows: where can I
find the list that deals with Roman Law? I don't
remember seeing anything about that on the website.
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Lucius Quintius Constantius of Lacus Magni

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Much ado about nothing?


Salvete omnes,

Quite some time ago since I made a posting, but I'm still trying to read everything :p. In fact it was beginning to seem like something rather enjoyable, but again the nasty habit of what is conveniently called "politics" here rears its ugly head.

Sulla: If you consider it so distasteful why do you continue to post on it. You should focus on things that bring you more pleasure.
So what do we have? Quintus Cassius Calvus bursts out in anger towards high-ranking magistrates who have not paid yet and have passed the deadline.

Sulla: Interesting that you are speculating on his state of mind at the time he published his initial post. Do you have the experience or education to make such a speculation?

He thinks it's quite a disgrace for sitting magistrates not to pay.

Sulla: I do not believe he said that. I think you ought to go back and read his initial post. He focused soley on the legalities. Per the Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi, if taxes are not received by the deadline (Ap. 30th) those members who are magistrates and apparitories who fail to pay their tax can no longer hold office.

Lucius Arminius Faustus reacts that these people do not need to be nailed to the rostrum, so to speak, and some others disgruntedly react that they have paid or have tried to pay but that they experienced difficulties.

Sulla: Yes people have had difficulty in paying their tax. However, the tax gathering period was 90 days long, that should be long enough to get taxes paid even if you were paying it via pony express.

Sulla appears not to understand that Faustus is upset by what he feels as something humiliating (which, in my opinion, it is!) and feels runs counter to the spirit of his own sense of legality.

Sulla: Actually I understand, but my concern is with the implementation of the laws as promulgated by the People. As I have stated if we are a nation of laws we have to implement them and as I have questioned Lucius Arminius if he was so distressed and sad at this situation and he knew that his pater was having issues, why did he not volunteer to pay for his Pater's taxes. In the Gens Cornelia we have established a system that if anyone in the Gens has any problem in paying their tax there is always a Cornelian at hand to cover it for them.

Sulla uses familiar words such as "agenda" to turn this into some sort of scheming affair while it clearly isn't.

Sulla: I disagree, Lucius Arminius is playing soley on emotion and ignoring the rule of law to get sympathy for his cause. Lucius Arminius has an agenda to not have his pater lose his position as governor. Just as I have an agenda to see that the laws of Nova Roma are carried out without any sign of favoritism in an open and above board fashion.

Faustus responds rather emotionally - and I don't say I'm agreeing with him! - which Sulla is using against him. Some empathy really couldn't hurt.

Sulla: Having empathy is fine, but we are not governed by our feelings. We are governed by the laws that have been passed by the People of Nova Roma. If we fail to implement the laws that we have passed then what use is there to call us a nation. We should just be a club.
Quintus Cassius, on the other hand, soon reveals the true feelings behind his failed attempt at being the messenger of light. He finds that Nova Roma is a hypocritical mock-state with backroom politics.

Sulla: If the laws that we have passed are not implemented, then I will agree with Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus.

Everyone who knows me long enough will know that I kind of agree about this hypocrisy. Since hypocrisy occurs in almost any society it is bound to occur here as well, certainly when a brave attempt is made at trying to recreate a state.

Sulla: So, Solaris let me ask you. We have a law on the books, it has been passed by the People of Nova Roma. Should we implement this law or should we establish a precedent where magistrates are above the law?

Few of us here are professional politicians so of course things will (be) run in an amateuristic manner. This not abnormal. In spite of many good intentions the system has a lot of flaws, perhaps too many to function properly all the time. In this context it's pure irony that no one noted that the name of the law is actually wrong. I pointed it out once or twice in the past but no one seemed to care.

Sulla: Solarius, you fail to recognize last year. Last year M. Octavius Germancius and I were consuls and we monitored the tax payments and made sure that all of the Magistrates taxes wer paid before the deadline. Last year you did have hear of any issue of magistrates, senators or governors fail to pay their tax. Thats because we were on top of the situation and we contacted the governors to make sure that they were able to pay. If magistrates were not able to pay the tax we made sure their taxes were paid for them. So, the system functions if there is oversight by those who govern Nova Roma.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Honorable Consul,
>
> That is not what your Edict states. Your Edict states; "The tax
> deadline is the last day of Aprilis. Taxes may be remitted after

> date, with a penalty of an extra 50%. Exempli gratia, a civis who
> owes $12 would need to pay $18 after the deadline. "
>
> The Edict makes no mention of postmarks. It merely states that

> remitted after that date... In my line of work remittance means
> cash/check in hand, not postmarked by.
>
> I really want to believe this is not yet another case of changing

> rules when the current ones become an incovenience and that you
> overlooked mentioning the postmark. I'm willing to give the

> of the doubt.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaius117" <lanius117@a...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Here are some shows that you may be interested in:
>
> May 2 - History Channel - Caligula - Reign of Madness 9:00 pm
>
> May 12 - History Channel - Mail Call - The Pilum 8:00 pm
>
> May 15 - Discovery Channel - Vesuvius: Deadly Fury 10:00 pm
> May 16 - " " " " " 1:00 am
> May 17 - " " " " " 6:00 pm
>
> May 28 - Discovery Channel - Who Killed Julius Caesar? 8:00 pm
> " " " " " " " 11:00 pm
>
> May 31 - Discovery Channel - The Mummies of Rome 12:00 pm
> " " " Who Killed Julius Caesar? 1:00 pm
>
> Valete,
>
> Gaius Lanius Falco

> Salvete omnes,
>
> Our tax department, Revenue Canada as well as the IRS in the USA,

> the dogs gnaw their bones, go by the day your tax returns are post
> marked. They say as long as the return has been stamped before
> midnight on the 15 of April in the US and 30 of April in Canada,

> the returns are counted as on time. If not you face stiff

> Is that not an understanding in NR?
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 4:52 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi


Salvete omnes,

Our tax department, Revenue Canada as well as the IRS in the USA, may
the dogs gnaw their bones, go by the day your tax returns are post
marked. They say as long as the return has been stamped before
midnight on the 15 of April in the US and 30 of April in Canada, then
the returns are counted as on time. If not you face stiff penalties.
Is that not an understanding in NR?

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



>
> Honorable Consul,
>
> That is not what your Edict states. Your Edict states; "The tax
> deadline is the last day of Aprilis. Taxes may be remitted after
that
> date, with a penalty of an extra 50%. Exempli gratia, a civis who
> owes $12 would need to pay $18 after the deadline. "
>
> The Edict makes no mention of postmarks. It merely states that
Taxes
> remitted after that date... In my line of work remittance means
> cash/check in hand, not postmarked by.
>
> I really want to believe this is not yet another case of changing
the
> rules when the current ones become an incovenience and that you
> overlooked mentioning the postmark. I'm willing to give the
benefit
> of the doubt.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have a question on Nova Roman Constitutional Law. Does the Veto
> held by the magistrates pertain only to official acts of other
> magistrates or can they veto the actions of an individual citizens.

> The Edict makes no mention of postmarks. It merely states that Taxes
> remitted after that date... In my line of work remittance means
> cash/check in hand, not postmarked by.

----- Original Message -----
From: "quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 7:30 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi


> Salve,
>
> How can the ordinary citizen be expected to pay their taxes when
> office holders and Senators do not? The following officals covered
> under the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi have not paid their
> taxes as of May 1, 2003 and in accordance with the Lex Vedia Assidui
> et Capiti Censi are no longer eligible to hold office (Link:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-i.html:
>
> Flaverius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus, Accensus of the Sr. Consul's
> Cohors
>
> Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, Plebian Aedile
>
> Quintius Sertorius, PROPRAETOR Canada Occidentalis
>
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, PROPRAETOR Canada Orientalis
>
> Senator Marcus Arminius Maior, PROPRAETOR Brasilia
>
> Senator Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura, PROPRAETOR Australia
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
> (I paid my taxes, did you?)
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> Salvete Quinti Cassi omnesque
>
> > The Edict makes no mention of postmarks. It merely states that

> > remitted after that date... In my line of work remittance means
> > cash/check in hand, not postmarked by.

> Then we are in different lines of work. To me, remittance means

> the sending of money to someone at a distance. That is all I meant

> the word, and I have been telling those that have asked that a

> dated before the deadline is sufficient for over a month now.

----- Original Message -----
From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi


> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Q. Cassius Calvus. Salve.
>
> I mailed my original check on 4/07/03 with an SAS postcard enclosed to the
P.O. Box in Maine. I did not receive a response but investigated with the
proper magistrates. No record of my check was found. I have mailed a new
check. I do not use PayPal. Respectfully. F Gal Aur Sec.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 08:13:36PM -0500, Fortunatus wrote:
> Salvete Quinti Cassi omnesque
>
> > The Edict makes no mention of postmarks. It merely states that Taxes
> > remitted after that date... In my line of work remittance means
> > cash/check in hand, not postmarked by.
>
> Then we are in different lines of work. To me, remittance means simply
> the sending of money to someone at a distance. That is all I meant by
> the word, and I have been telling those that have asked that a postmark
> dated before the deadline is sufficient for over a month now.

From Webster's dictionary:

Remittance \Re*mit"tance\ (r?-m?t"tans), n.
1. The act of transmitting money, bills, or the like, esp. to
a distant place, as in satisfaction of a demand, or in
discharge of an obligation.
[1913 Webster]

2. The sum or thing remitted. --Addison.
[1913 Webster]

--- [from wn] ---
remittance
n : a payment of money sent to a person in another place [syn: {remittal},
{remission}, {remitment}]

It seems that the law agrees with your definition; transmission, not
reception is how "remittance" is defined. I'm not particularly excited
about the fact that NR officials get special treatment and privileges,
such as L. Cornelius Sulla mentioned (the magistrates taxes being paid
for them if they neglect to do so, etc. - the average citizen does not
have this done for them!), but if the law says "remittance", then that's
what it means.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alea iacta est!
Let the dice fly!
-- Julius Caesar, at the Rubicon

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi


Salve -

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 08:13:36PM -0500, Fortunatus wrote:
> Salvete Quinti Cassi omnesque
>
> > The Edict makes no mention of postmarks. It merely states that Taxes
> > remitted after that date... In my line of work remittance means
> > cash/check in hand, not postmarked by.
>
> Then we are in different lines of work. To me, remittance means simply
> the sending of money to someone at a distance. That is all I meant by
> the word, and I have been telling those that have asked that a postmark
> dated before the deadline is sufficient for over a month now.

From Webster's dictionary:

Remittance \Re*mit"tance\ (r?-m?t"tans), n.
1. The act of transmitting money, bills, or the like, esp. to
a distant place, as in satisfaction of a demand, or in
discharge of an obligation.
[1913 Webster]

2. The sum or thing remitted. --Addison.
[1913 Webster]

--- [from wn] ---
remittance
n : a payment of money sent to a person in another place [syn: {remittal},
{remission}, {remitment}]

It seems that the law agrees with your definition; transmission, not
reception is how "remittance" is defined. I'm not particularly excited
about the fact that NR officials get special treatment and privileges,
such as L. Cornelius Sulla mentioned (the magistrates taxes being paid
for them if they neglect to do so, etc. - the average citizen does not
have this done for them!), but if the law says "remittance", then that's
what it means.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alea iacta est!
Let the dice fly!
-- Julius Caesar, at the Rubicon

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I'm not particularly excited about the fact that NR officials get special
> treatment and privileges, such as L. Cornelius Sulla mentioned (the
> magistrates taxes being paid for them if they neglect to do so, etc. - the
> average citizen does not have this done for them!)

> ...but if the law says "remittance", then that's what it means.

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 08:58:55PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Ave,
>
> For the record, you must have missed a later post in which I clearly
> pointed that that the Gens Cornelia does have a system in place that
> if there are members within our gens, others who can, may be able to
> pay for your taxes.

I saw that post as well. This is perhaps a laudable thing within a Gens;
I cannot say that I disapprove of the policy, as it would (in my
opinion) cause a significantly higher percentage of the members to pay
their taxes. However, I'm certain that all magistrates do not belong to
the Gens Cornelia - and call your attention to the meaning of the word
"privilege", which is the term I used.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hoc coactus sum.
To this, I am forced and compelled.
(According to legend, a secret reservation written by bishop Hans Brask of
Link?ping and hidden under his seal on a document he was reluctant to sign.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Caius Minucius Scaevola" <ben@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi


> Ave -
>
> On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 08:58:55PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > For the record, you must have missed a later post in which I clearly
> > pointed that that the Gens Cornelia does have a system in place that
> > if there are members within our gens, others who can, may be able to
> > pay for your taxes.
>
> I saw that post as well. This is perhaps a laudable thing within a Gens;
> I cannot say that I disapprove of the policy, as it would (in my
> opinion) cause a significantly higher percentage of the members to pay
> their taxes. However, I'm certain that all magistrates do not belong to
> the Gens Cornelia - and call your attention to the meaning of the word
> "privilege", which is the term I used.
>
>
> Vale,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Hoc coactus sum.
> To this, I am forced and compelled.
> (According to legend, a secret reservation written by bishop Hans Brask of
> Link?ping and hidden under his seal on a document he was reluctant to
sign.)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 09:23:58PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Ave,
>
> As a citizen of Nova Roma, I make sure my taxes are paid. As Paterfamilias
> it is my duty to make certain that I organize a way to have as many
> Cornelians pay their taxes, if they are not able to pay for it themselves.
> I am not responsible for the actions of every other citizen of Nova Roma,
> and it is not my responsibilty to find a way to pay for their taxes either.
> It is up to them to pay for their taxes or to find other methods to make
> certain their taxes are paid.
>
> All magistrates and citizens have had over 90 days to submit their payment
> to Nova Roma. It is up to them to plan its payment (if it is a financial
> expense), or set up a method of getting those funds here.
>
> Besides, its not like this was the first year a tax has been implmented
> (that was last year).

I don't see how *any* of the above relates to the issue under
discussion; I'm sure that advertising your Gens and its policies,
disclaiming responsibility, stating the obvious, etc. has its place, but
the topic here was _privilege,_ and you have wandered all over the field
but have totally failed to address the point. I'll repeat it for
clarification: the magistrates received privileged treatment by having
the tax paid for them when they failed to pay it themselves. Do you have
anything pertinent to say under that heading?


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Graeca sunt, non leguntur.
It is Greek, you don't read that.
-- N/A

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Lex Vedia Assidui et Capiti Censi


Ave,
On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 09:23:58PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Ave,
>
> As a citizen of Nova Roma, I make sure my taxes are paid. As Paterfamilias
> it is my duty to make certain that I organize a way to have as many
> Cornelians pay their taxes, if they are not able to pay for it themselves.
> I am not responsible for the actions of every other citizen of Nova Roma,
> and it is not my responsibilty to find a way to pay for their taxes either.
> It is up to them to pay for their taxes or to find other methods to make
> certain their taxes are paid.
>
> All magistrates and citizens have had over 90 days to submit their payment
> to Nova Roma. It is up to them to plan its payment (if it is a financial
> expense), or set up a method of getting those funds here.
>
> Besides, its not like this was the first year a tax has been implmented
> (that was last year).

I don't see how *any* of the above relates to the issue under
discussion; I'm sure that advertising your Gens and its policies,
disclaiming responsibility, stating the obvious, etc. has its place, but
the topic here was _privilege,_ and you have wandered all over the field
but have totally failed to address the point. I'll repeat it for
clarification: the magistrates received privileged treatment by having
the tax paid for them when they failed to pay it themselves. Do you have
anything pertinent to say under that heading?

Ave,

I have been all over the issue today, I guess you haven't noticed. Last year when the taxes were first implemented M. Octavius and I made certain that we contacted magistrates via email to remind them about tax payments. Most of them paid. A few of them were unable to for a varity of reasons and between him and I we had the issue resolved for them. If I recall correctly, a few of them were trying to make payment via paypal but kept running into situations where it kept trying to verify their CC. In the end, we ended up covering for them because of the difficulties. I do not consider it privileged treatment in so far that they have attempted numerous times to utilize paypal to make their payment and were unsuccessful due to a programming incompatability and considering it was the very first year NR had taxes implemented and in essence we were testing the system. I do not know if those same citizens have even paid this year or if they have encountered the same difficulties, only this years Consuls will know that. This year all citizens were aware hat taxes were coming, the Senate even expanded the tax collection time from 60 days to 90 days and the precedent was already established in regards to the methods of payment.

Oh, and just to let you know in case your wondering, I do not need to advertise the Gens Cornelia, I am not surprised that that is what you preceived. What I was doing was advertising a policy that we utilize in an effort to help citizens pay taxes. Maybe other Gentes will be able to start similar set up within their Gens. It is, IMHO, very beneficial.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 10:07:12PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> I have been all over the issue today, I guess you haven't noticed.

I've noticed. I simply happen to share a significant percentage of M.
Solaris' opinion with regard to the topic.

> Last year when the taxes were first implemented M. Octavius and I
> made certain that we contacted magistrates via email to remind them
> about tax payments. Most of them paid. A few of them were unable
> to for a varity of reasons and between him and I we had the issue
> resolved for them. If I recall correctly, a few of them were trying
> to make payment via paypal but kept running into situations where it
> kept trying to verify their CC. In the end, we ended up covering
> for them because of the difficulties.

Yes, you've said that before.

> I do not consider it
> privileged treatment in so far that they have attempted numerous
> times to utilize paypal to make their payment and were unsuccessful
> due to a programming incompatability and considering it was the very
> first year NR had taxes implemented and in essence we were testing
> the system.

Clearly, you do not understand the meaning of the word "privilege". It
is not related to whether they had problems, or were out of money, or
anything else of the sort; the meaning of the term is that they received
preferential treatment not available to the average citizen of NR. I
feel that this was wrong, for a number of reasons. However, this is not
a large issue for me; I've simply made a statement. You've been arguing
some point that isn't even related to that statement. If you want to
refute what I've said by explaining why the treatment shouldn't be
considered preferential, fine; otherwise, we're just talking past each
other for no reason.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing crumbles.
-- Sallust, "Jugurtha"