----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


Salve A Apollonius Cordus,

> He's naturally concerned to re-check everything
> and to > consult his senior advisers before
proposing > the bill, > to make sure it doesn't
need to be withdrawn > and > re-issued (which
would waste everyone's time).

What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
with this proposal?

Sulla: Wow Diana, you better watch it. Soon they will start calling you Sulla Iunor. <eg> Seriously though, I do agree with your thoughts. My own personal feeling is that our Senior Consul is realizing that too much input is really bad. Too much bureaucracy is just as bad of a hinderance as no bureaucracy.

<I believe he's also working on several other
important projects, it's hard to say what sort of
waiting time we can expect.

Care to give us a hint on what these are?

Sulla: Yeah A. Apollonius, stop teasing us. :)

I think
the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
people with titles and nothing coming out of the
Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
term is done. Or have I missed something?

Sulla: Nope you are not missing anything, remember Diana, most of Caeso's staff are also holding other offices...like our Aediles who to date have tried to establish a secret police force and have been involved in religious controversays with the way they conduct the games that have Religious signficance.

> In the mean time, he has been discussing his
> proposed
> changes with the Tribunes, (snipped)

Has he? While I do appreciate you a great deal,
you really shouldn't announce what other people
are discussing. Because in this case, you are
wrong.

Sulla: Really, just who has our Senior Consul been in discussion with? I am really curious now.

As of now, I have not discussed anything
with the Senior Consul and I am sure that my
clleagues would have let me know if they were.
About 6 weeks ago I received an email from the
Senior Consul which said that something was in
the works and that he would send it to me soon.
So far I have not recieved anything. And about 6
weeks before that, you told me not to propose new
electoral legislation because the Senior Consul
would propose something soon.

Sulla: Why would the Senior Consul tell you not to propose anything. He is a Patrician and beyond that he has no jurisidictional authority to any law you might promulgate in the Comitia Plebis Tributa, and espeically given the election Fiasco you and your colleagues should have been actively working in trying to remedy it. I am looking forward to seeing how the Tribune of the Plebs fix the Comitia Plebis and hope that if it is a good fix it would be carried over into the Comitia Populi Tributa as well.

And during this 3
months of waiting, we've have 3 failed run-offs
under our belts.

The Tribunes are now discussing (with input from
the Commitia Plebis Tributa) what we need to do--
and do quickly -- in order to take care of our
open Tribune spot once and for all.

Sulla: Good luck. Remember the laws is is always available to you if you would like to any matter there.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Run-off Elections


Avete Omnes,



Now for a more in-depth response.


--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@...>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> There are a few laws that might have an impact on
> this. For example, the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
> Magistratus Plebis might have to be implemented or
> at least looked into
>
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-14-i.html)
> and there are a number of other laws that might need
> to be looked into as well.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


I am afraid that I must disagree with Sulla as to
the applicability of the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
Magistratus Plebis in this matter.



Sulla: For clarification, I have never stated that the Lex Grylla de Securandius Magistratus Plebis is applicable. Instead I clearly stated that that law and others will need to be looked into in regards to finding a solution in regards to the perpetuating runoff cycle.



The beginning phrase of the law states as follows: "If

no candidates for Tribunis Plebis ... declare in December,

the Senate must provide for those magistrates...." My
understanding is that this law applies only if no
candidates whatsoever for Tribune of the Plebs have
registered by December.



Sulla: That is correct. Your analysis is the same as mine in regards to the applicability of the Lex Grylla in this specific situation.



I do not think that it can be
applied in the current circumstances because all of
the current candidates did in fact declare at the
regular time.



Sulla: That is definitely one way in looking at the situation. And, I might add is the way I also view this situation.


However in reading the following leges I believe
there may already exist a legal procedure that will
allow for a new election to fill the vacancy within
the Tribunate. It is my understading that the
governing lex is the Lex Labienia de Ratione
Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum (adopted 12 Apr 2754, in
the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus
Cassius Julianus), as amended by the Lex Salicia de
Suffragis in Comitia Plebis Tributa (adopted 26
November 2755, in the consulship of Marcus Octavius
Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla).

<SNIP>



Sulla: Yes I am aware of the Lex Labiena and the changes made by the Lex Salicia. The main advantage to posting it, is that within the 30 days the Tribunes can hold another runoff and at the same time promulgate a new law in regards to the election reform. In other words, at the same time they are holding the next runoff they can at the same time propose election reform for the Plebians to consider.


In looking through the Tabularium, I see no law
that specifically states how to conduct run-off
elections.



Sulla: True. They are handled exactly like regular election and votes.



Perhaps there is one and it is missing, or
I have overlooked it, if that is the case, I would be
appreciative if someone could point it out to me.



Sulla: They are handled like any other election. This is something I hope will be changed in any upcoming election reform or set up a system in place where runoff elections are not necessary. I think we all can agree based on past Nova Roma experience that runoff elections do not ever have the same turnout as the main election.


However, bare reading of thge above law says only
that new elections in case not enough candidates
receive at least 18 tribes, that a new election must
be called within 30 days. It does not say that only
those candidates who ran in the previous election can
run in the new election.



Sulla: True, it does not state that only those candidates who ran in the previous election can run in the new election.



My understanding is that
there has been a long-standing stalemate for these
three candidates. Perhaps it can best be resolved by
the Tribunes calling a new election, and allowing all
qualified candidates to run.



Sulla: The problem is that all three candidates doe qualify. Per the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. There are no other requirements (that I am aware of) that would restrict them from running (since they all are Plebs as well.)



Perhaps a new candidate
that a majority could support would then be found.



Sulla: What do you mean a new candidate that a majority would support, do you mean opening up a call for candidates, that would create even more of a situation because it is highly unlikely the three other candidates would step down.



In saying this I am not trying to say that any of the
current candidates are unworthy of the position, but
merely trying to present a solution that I think
current law will allow.



Sulla: In this situation, It would be better to simply drop off the lowest vote getter in the previous runoff and remove the write in candidate section. That would be a better solution IMHO.



I do concur with the
statements of those citizens who have expressed the
view that there should be electoral reform, since I
think run-offs that take half the time of a term are
hardly worth the trouble.



Sulla: I think we all agree with that. J


The Senate does have the right under the
Constitution to appoint magistrates when there are
vacancies, but only if there are less than three
months remaining in the term. However, I don't think
that we want to wait until October to fill this
vacancy.



Sulla: Yes I agree entirely.



Respectfully,



Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Lucius Quintius Constantius of Lacus Magni







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


Salve Senator,

<drop off the lowest candidate and remove the
write-in > portions as options during run-off
elections?

<Marianus Adrianus Sarus (Write-In): 1 Tribe

I agree. Especially the write- in. We are not
accepting new candidates and so that write-in
slot needs to be scrapped. And to be blunt: I
have never noticed him posting to the ML and so
how would any citizens know that he wanted to be
Tribune? My conclusion is that he voted for
himself and got 3 of his friends to do so too. A
waste of time for us and the Rogatores.

Vale,
Diana Moravia
Tribunus Plebis

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:57:51PM -0700, Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Salve A Apollonius Cordus,
>
> > He's naturally concerned to re-check everything
> > and to > consult his senior advisers before
> proposing > the bill, > to make sure it doesn't
> need to be withdrawn > and > re-issued (which
> would waste everyone's time).
>
> What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
> and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
> with this proposal?

Diana, from reading the rest of your post, I'm getting the sense that
you're frustrated with the slow progress of this proposal; OK, fair
enough and understandable, especially since this series of runoffs has
led nowhere. However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable. I'm not
certain why you do. Just as an example, the complexity of the task
itself and the amount of opposition the Consul runs into are also
determining factors; there are others as well. Perhaps asking the Consul
himself about his reasons for a larger Cohors would be a more effective
tack if this is what you really want to know.

> <I believe he's also working on several other
> important projects, it's hard to say what sort of
> waiting time we can expect.
>
> Care to give us a hint on what these are?

Isn't this in direct opposition to what you say just below, with regard
to announcing what other people are discussing? Cordus, it seems to me,
is trying to walk the fine line between keeping people updated on what's
happening and spilling information that's best kept to a small group
until it's ready to be announced (if, indeed, he even has it.) If he's
made a mis-step, letting him know about it - as you did below - is
reasonable, but *asking* him to violate it as you upbraid him for it is
unreasonable.

> I think
> the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
> lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
> people with titles and nothing coming out of the
> Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
> term is done. Or have I missed something?

Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such concern
about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done quite a
lot of work - I find it ungracious of you to imply otherwise,
particularly when you don't really know about it - but that work is
advisory to the Consul, and he decides what of it will reach you or
anyone else. Why not broach your concerns to him, instead of attacking
someone on whom that responsibility does not lie?


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.
The way is made long through rules, but short and effective through examples.
-- Seneca Philosophus, "Epistulae"

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 02:39:43PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> Sulla: Wow Diana, you better watch it. Soon they will start
> calling you Sulla Iunor. <eg>

I think not, Sulla; you are - shall we say - unique.

May Fortuna continue to smile upon Nova Roma.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Don't you know then, my son, how little wisdom rules the world?
-- Said by the Swedish chancellor Axel Oxenstierna to encourage his son Johan when
he doubted his ability to represent Sweden at the Westphalian peace conference.

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


Salve, L. Cornelius Sulla -

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 02:39:43PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> Sulla: Wow Diana, you better watch it. Soon they will start
> calling you Sulla Iunor. <eg>

I think not, Sulla; you are - shall we say - unique.

Sulla: Excellent, its good to be unique.

Vale,

Sulla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Citizens of Nova Roma:
>
> I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of

>
>

> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como

> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no

> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es

> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
> Salvete omnes et Drusilla,

> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como

> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no

> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es

> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>

> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como

> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no

> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es

> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
> Salvete omnes et Drusilla,

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular L.
> Cornelius Sulla, Q. Lanius Paulinus & all citizens and
> peregrines, greetings.
>
> Fear not, gentlemen, there shall be electoral reform!
>
> For the moment (as I'm sure they themselves will tell
> you soon enough) the Tribunes have decided, after a
> little consultation with the Plebs, on a solution for
> the time being to make sure we have a Tribune without
> another run-off. I shan't steal their thunder further
> by telling you what it is, since after all they may
> have changed their minds since last I heard.
>
> As for the more important long-term question, the
> senior Consul has an electoral reform proposal on his
> virtual desk and is, I believe, in the final stages of
> consultation about it. I am hopeful that we shall see
> it soon.

> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como

> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no

> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es

> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
> Salvete omnes et Drusilla,

> I think this likely to be retrospective explanation. The word

>Stronghold. The story of Aeneas may have been inherited from the

> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como

> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no

> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es

> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
>Salve Drusilla,

> Though I don't wish to contradict anything my (much)
> more learned fellow-citizens have said about the
> difficulty of obtaining citizenship in the republic
> and early principate, I thought it might be worth
> pointing out an element of relativity. Comparing Roman
> practice to their own, many contemporary Greeks or
> others in the Greek-speaking world felt that the
> Romans gave away citizenship remarkably freely. I
> recall Polybius taking this view, and there is also an
> inscription - from either Macedonia or Syria, I think
> - suggesting the same thing. In both cases there was a
> suspicion that perhaps this was one of the secrets of
> Rome's success. Sorry to be unable to provide more
> precise sources - I'll try to look them up.

----- Original Message -----
From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:13 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy


> Citizens of Nova Roma:
>
> I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of May.
There is no question that the system we currently have in place is flawed.
I trust that the Tribunes will do their best to fix the problem, and I would
encourage them to come up with a solution instead of waiting for someone
else to propose one.
>
> I wish to serve our Republic in honor, and would consider it a great
dignity to serve as a tribune in the future. However, I feel that it is in
the best interests of the Republic for me to humbly step down as a
candidate, and allow Gaius Popillius Laenas be elected. I would encourage
all those that supported me to vote in the next run-off election, and to
vote for Laenas. Five tribunes are better than 4, and our Republic is
suffering.
>
> I will run for tribune again in the fall under the same platform I did
last year:
>
> I. To cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best interests of
Nova Roma.
> II. To encourage the active participation of all citizens within Nova
Roma.
> III. To facilitate communication between the Senate and the People.
> IV. To advocate for an increased local presence of Nova Roma within
Macronations.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> You are an honorable man that is why I supported you in all of

> years too) elections. This is the best solution to the immediate

> electing our 5th Tribune. I hope Tribunes will propose a solution

> type of thing never happens again.
>
> Lest me be the first to say
>
> "Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribune 2756"
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@a...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:13 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
>
>
> > Citizens of Nova Roma:
> >
> > I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of

> There is no question that the system we currently have in place is

> I trust that the Tribunes will do their best to fix the problem,

> encourage them to come up with a solution instead of waiting for

> else to propose one.
> >
> > I wish to serve our Republic in honor, and would consider it a

> dignity to serve as a tribune in the future. However, I feel that

> the best interests of the Republic for me to humbly step down as a
> candidate, and allow Gaius Popillius Laenas be elected. I would

> all those that supported me to vote in the next run-off election,

> vote for Laenas. Five tribunes are better than 4, and our Republic

> suffering.
> >
> > I will run for tribune again in the fall under the same platform

> last year:
> >
> > I. To cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best

> Nova Roma.
> > II. To encourage the active participation of all citizens within

> Roma.
> > III. To facilitate communication between the Senate and the

> > IV. To advocate for an increased local presence of Nova Roma

> Macronations.
> >
> > Vale;
> >
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

> >
> >
> >

> However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.

> 1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to govern them......Nova
> Roma
>

> "Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribune 2756"
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen

> From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis
> has done quite a
> lot of work - I find it ungracious of you to imply
> otherwise, <snipped>

> Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such concern
> about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done quite

> lot of work

----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@... writes:


> However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
Salvete
Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
so.
In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in Nova
Roma
and after all the promises we kinda expected action.

Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of the plebs.
( I have to say I admire the Rogators and their hard work so far. During my
consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and their statement against the Iraq
war.
5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in early Feb. It takes 3 months
to work the bugs out?
6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If he can't do the job, why did he
get stand?

You did collect taxes. And that was well done. But for the others, the
Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
representative, and protector of the constitution.
There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@... writes:
>
>
> > However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> > the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> > of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> > should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> > debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
>
> Salvete
> Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> so.

Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?

You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.

> In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in Nova
> Roma
> and after all the promises we kinda expected action.

Has the Cohors Consulis made any promises to you? I'd be interested in
knowing what they are.

> Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:

[ snip ]

None of the issues you've brought up have anything to do with the Cohors
as a group. Does phrase "advisory capacity" mean anything to you, or will
you require an explanation?

> You did collect taxes. And that was well done.

Not me. But I'm certain that the Consul and the Rogatores will be happy
to hear your praise.

> But for the others, the
> Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
> representative, and protector of the constitution.

It was not a question. Questions, in case you've lost track, contain an
inquiry that regards the matter at hand. Diana had made several
*statements* (just as a reminder, those contain an assertion) about the
Cohors Consulis. If you want to question the Cohors regarding its work
_and_ believe you have the right to that information, feel free to send
an e-mail to the Consul - he'll be the one to make that decision anyway.

> There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

I neither was nor acted "outraged". I made a comment about how
inappropriate I'd found the statements.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Aquila non captat muscas.
The eagle doesn't capture flies.
-- N/A

> There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


Salve -

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@... writes:
>
>
> > However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> > the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> > of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> > should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> > debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
>
> Salvete
> Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> so.

Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?

You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


Sulla: Actually, I think either you must have ignored a number of my posts or your attention span is extremely short. Because I do remember criticizing the Senior Consul's edicts when he appointed his Nova Byzantium Cohort staff. Perhaps, you should recheck the archieves in January to refresh your memory. So, please do not try to spin your weave of disinformation.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>You did collect taxes. And that was well done.

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:28:57AM +0100, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius,
>
> > From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis
> > has done quite a
> > lot of work - I find it ungracious of you to imply
> > otherwise, <snipped>
>
> I think you'll find that criticism of ones actions, or
> in this case, inaction, is in the very nature of
> politics.

It's neither the action nor the inaction that the Tribune was
criticizing; unless I'm mistaken, she does not know what or how much the
Cohors has done. The criticism that I saw was aimed at the size, and
consequently the existence, of it.

> And I'm sure that our fair Tribune expected
> some heat in return for her post. Gracious of you to
> oblige Caius Minucius.

Those who post in order to get a heated reaction are generally referred
to as "trolls", and your statement seems to accuse the Tribune of this.
You may wish to reconsider it. I believe that her post was made in all
sincerity although it seemed affected by frustration.

Personally, I have confidence that the Tribune is fully capable of
dealing with any "heat" that she happens to draw in the course of her
duties; that's part of a Tribune's job, as she herself had noted in the
past. I'm certain that she can survive the mild warmth provided by my
comments.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
It is sweet and glorious to die for one's country.
-- Horace, "Carmina"

> Actually, it is the Consular Quaestores who "collect", record and
> report the taxes. This year they were:
>
> Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio.

> Many thinks gentlemen for a difficult job well done.

> > And I'm sure that our fair Tribune expected
> > some heat in return for her post. Gracious of you
> to
> > oblige Caius Minucius.
>
> Those who post in order to get a heated reaction are
> generally referred
> to as "trolls", and your statement seems to accuse
> the Tribune of this.
> You may wish to reconsider it. I believe that her
> post was made in all
> sincerity although it seemed affected by
> frustration.

> >>You did collect taxes. And that was well done.
>
> Not me. But I'm certain that the Consul and the Rogatores will be
> happy
> to hear your praise.<<
>
> Actually, it is the Consular Quaestores who "collect", record and
> report the taxes. This year they were:
>
> Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio.
>
> Many thinks gentlemen for a difficult job well done.

> I find it unfortunate that it had to come to this. I
> look forward to voting for you again in the fall.
>
>
> 1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to
> govern them......Nova Roma

> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 05:05:20PM +0100, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius,
>
> Resorting to your usual tactic of putting words in
> peoples mouths Scaevola. You have a reputation for it
> and you really should learn to desist.

Your opinions of my reputation and my "tactics" are not my largest
concerns, I assure you. I tell the truth the way I see it; your opinions
do not figure much in the process. Since you're switching to /ad
hominem/ attacks, be sure to direct your mail to </dev/null@localhost>;
I'll answer you when I have the leisure. Hint: don't wear out the edge
of your chair.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Honores mutant mores.
The honours change the customs. (Power corrupts.)
-- N/A

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such concern
> > about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done quite
> a
> > lot of work
>
> Ok, then "Where's the beef?" "Maybe its under the pickle."

> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:13:23AM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus

> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola

> > wrote:
> >
> > > Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such

> > > about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done

> > a
> > > lot of work
> >
> > Ok, then "Where's the beef?" "Maybe its under the pickle."
>
> <grin> Large pickles they're using, these days.

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
> >
> > <grin> Large pickles they're using, these days.
>
> Or mighty small patties. Claiming something does not make it so.
> You can claim the Cohors Consulis is working hard on a ton of
> projects, but that is merely anecdotal evidence. In my line of work
> anecdotal evidence means nada. Show me the money, honey..... I
> don't see no money.....

> Ave Senator Q. Fabius,
>
> You forgot to mention the Aediles attempt to implement edicts that
> would establish a Secret Police force in Nova Roma on your list.

> Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:
> >
> > Salvete
> > Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> > so.
>
> Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
>
> You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
> have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
> Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
> Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
> directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
> addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
> informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Sulla: Actually, I think either you must have ignored a number of
> my posts or your attention span is extremely short.

> Because I do
> remember criticizing the Senior Consul's edicts when he appointed
> his Nova Byzantium Cohort staff.

> Perhaps, you should recheck the
> archieves in January to refresh your memory. So, please do not try
> to spin your weave of disinformation.

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 08:37:23AM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:
> >
> > Salvete
> > Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> > so.
>
> Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
>
> You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
> have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
> Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
> Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
> directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
> addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
> informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Sulla: Actually, I think either you must have ignored a number of
> my posts or your attention span is extremely short.

You're welcome to assume the former; your posts are eminently ignorable.

Sulla: LOL thank you for giving me your permission. And, if my posts are so ignorable, why are you responding?

> Because I do
> remember criticizing the Senior Consul's edicts when he appointed
> his Nova Byzantium Cohort staff.

And... what does this have to do with anything I've said? I suggest you
learn to read and understand the content of what you're replying to
before putting your hands on the keyboard; this may (no guarantees, but
it may) increase the trivially small information content in your
replies.

Sulla: Well lets go back to your response to Senator Q. Fabius. You stated that, "You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla...have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably informed that he does not bite." So my response was that I have taken the Consul directly to task and have given you a specific example. To refute your "web" of disinformation.

> Perhaps, you should recheck the
> archieves in January to refresh your memory. So, please do not try
> to spin your weave of disinformation.

<smile> The word you're looking for is "web". If you're using a tool,
you should know its name. What you're spreading may make good
fertilizer, but it's poor English.

Sulla: I have never claimed to be an expert on grammar and spelling. And despite my lack of expertise you clearly understood what I was saying. My point still stands. I will await your next spin attempt.

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Centurion M Bianchius Antonius" <imperialreign@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy


>
> I find it unfortunate that it had to come to this. I look forward to
voting for you again in the fall.
>
>
> 1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to govern them......Nova
Roma
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> I think we've been over that one. Not my responsibility, not my

> and I'm not trying to establish it as evidence - see the "From my
> perspective" qualifier in my original post. The difference is, I

> good idea of how much work the Cohors has done, and everyone

> it is just guessing and basing their accusations on those guesses.
> What's that called in your line of work?

> 1. The Eagle and it's over funding.

----- Original Message -----
From: <qfabiusmaxmi@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


> In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@... writes:
>
>
> > However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> > the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> > of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> > should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> > debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
> Salvete
> Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to
do
> so.
> In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in
Nova
> Roma
> and after all the promises we kinda expected action.
>
> Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
> 1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
> 2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of the plebs.
> ( I have to say I admire the Rogators and their hard work so far. During
my
> consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
> 3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
> 4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and their statement against the Iraq
> war.
> 5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in early Feb. It takes 3
months
> to work the bugs out?
> 6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If he can't do the job, why did
he
> get stand?
>
> You did collect taxes. And that was well done. But for the others, the
> Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
> representative, and protector of the constitution.
> There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > The difference is, I
> have a
> > good idea of how much work the Cohors has done, and everyone
> outside of
> > it is just guessing and basing their accusations on those guesses.
> > What's that called in your line of work?
>
>
> When a person makes a unsubstantiated claim (anecdotal evidence) its
> called just that an unsubstained claim. I making no claim that the
> Cohors has done little work or much work.

> What I do claim is there
> is a distinct lack of concrete evidence.

> I can claim I'm an elderly
> Dutch woman but unless I have a birth certificate/passport/driver's
> license that says I'm 78, female, and a citizen of the Netherlands
> it's just that unsubstantiated.

> And just for the record, I am not
> 78, female, nor a citizen of the Netherlands and can prove it.

> In a message dated 5/15/03 8:43:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> alexious@... writes:
> > Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> > of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
> >
>
> We are the people of Nova Roma

> , magistrates and privatis, who feel that it is
> counterproductive to have such a large organization doing very little.

> You say we have freedom of speech here. I am exercising it on the behalf
> of a lot of citizens that seem to be scared of you.

> I do not understand
> that,
> but I guess there is strength in numbers. At least as far as intimidation is
> concerned.

> As for the Tribune's statements, while we are on opposite sides of the fence
> politically, what she asks is within the scope of her responsibilities, I.E.,
> protector
> of the Nova Roma's constitution. The fact you responded with such annoyance
> tells us that she is close to the mark.

> It would be a nice idea to get the Rogator's input
> on the matter of methodology of ballot counting...

> In this situation, It would be better to simply drop
> off the lowest vote getter in the previous runoff
> and remove the write in candidate section. That
> would be a better solution IMHO.

> What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
> and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
> with this proposal?

> Care to give us a hint on what these [the
> Consul's other projects] are? I think
> the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
> lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
> people with titles and nothing coming out of the
> Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
> term is done. Or have I missed something?

> > In the mean time, he has been discussing his
> > proposed
> > changes with the Tribunes, (snipped)
>
> Has he? While I do appreciate you a great deal,
> you really shouldn't announce what other people
> are discussing. Because in this case, you are
> wrong. As of now, I have not discussed anything
> with the Senior Consul and I am sure that
> my clleagues would have let me know if they were.
> About 6 weeks ago I received an email from the
> Senior Consul which said that something was in
> the works and that he would send it to me soon.
> So far I have not recieved anything. And about
> 6 weeks before that, you told me not to propose
> new electoral legislation because the Senior
> Consul would propose something soon. And during
> this 3 months of waiting, we've have 3
> failed run-offs under our belts.

> The Tribunes are now discussing (with input from
> the Commitia Plebis Tributa) what we need to do--
> and do quickly -- in order to take care of our
> open Tribune spot once and for all.

> Yes, the consul is working on laws to alter
> the electoral process but anything he proposes
> would not have the slightest effect on the
> election of Tribunes. Alterations to that process
> can only be done by the Tribunes themselves in
> the Comitia Plebis. Please do not try to
> make a connection that does not exist.

> Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
> 1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
> 2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of
> the plebs. ( I have to say I admire the Rogators
> and their hard work so far. During my
> consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
> 3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
> 4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and
> their statement against the Iraq war.
> 5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in
> early Feb. It takes 3 months
> to work the bugs out?
> 6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If
> he can't do the job, why did he
> get stand?

> Or mighty small patties. Claiming something does
> not make it so. You can claim the Cohors Consulis
> is working hard on a ton of projects, but that
> is merely anecdotal evidence.

>

>

> In a message dated 5/15/03 1:17:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> pectus_roboreus1@... writes:
>
>
> >> well, not the Consul himself, you don't seem to have enough
>> grit for that - but targets of opportunity, whom you believe you can
>> slander without resistance. Think again.
>>
>
> The Consul is my Gens mate, you might recall, and he will tell you that if
> I'm
> displeased with his performance, I'll let him know. So have no fears
> there.
>
> No, all I did was support the Tribune when she was criticized by a member
> of the overbloated organization after speaking out about a topic that we
> all
> believe but hadn't spoken about.
>
> The fact you are all covering your asses here with heated commentary
> really tells me a lot.
> As for attacks on the organization, you haven't been here that long here
> have you? You better grow a thicker skin if you intend to remain in
> politics.
> And consider. This pointless rhetoric is not even close to what real
> Romans
> engaged in during the Republic.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus

----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@...
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special


-----Original Message-----
From : "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@...>
Date : 15 May 2003 20:38:05
>
region. The Romans return with a vast army and slaughter nearly 600,000 Jews. They change the name of the region from Judea to Palestine and ban all Jews from Jerusalem. Desperate to start new lives, many Jews flee to distant lands, only to face another challenge -- a breakaway form of Judaism called Christianity. As it rises to political power, Christianity becomes deeply anti-Semitic. But Judaism survives -- and in doing so, preserves for all its unique gifts, including the rights of the individual and the rule of law -- gifts that will change the Western world forever.
>
Made by Mosad? Jews were leaving Judaea-Israel at least as early as 250BCE to escape theocratic repression for the intellectual freedom of Alexandria and there were substantial Jewish enclaves in most other Eastern cities. Alexandria and Elephatine Island near Aswan had Temples. It is only as the kings try to dominate a country that lasted only for three reigns before splitting in civil war that they enacted Jerusalem as their centre. After Solomon, Israel must have made its own arrangments, probably at the original site of Hebron. Following return of some Babylonian exiles from the mere 60 years when they had been writing the Bible to distance themselves as far as possible from similar religions, the first thing they decided was that those hwo had stayed and maintained the ancestral traditions were too religiously compromised than their super-holy selves to join in rebuilding their Temple. These then, who maintained Hebrew tradition, must be heirs to whatever the true religion was before the exiles purged it. The built their own temple on Mount Gerazim (which later Jews, anticipating Christianity, destroyed) in the district of Shomron, so were called Samaritans. Some 500 still exist.
Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I think what really matters is how far citizenship was tied to

> The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
> That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
> receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
> finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.
>
>

> The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
> That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
> receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
> finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.

----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


In a message dated 5/15/2003 4:41:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spqr753@... writes:

> The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
> That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
> receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
> finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.

Personally, I think this is a terrible way to finance a publication. The
Eagle is Nova Roma's publication. It should be publishing it, and not
requiring one of its citizens to publish it and get reimbursed. Is there no
trust?

The Eagle should have a budget that pays for the publishing and the mailing.
No one should have to pay for anything out of their pocket. If necessary
perhaps the Curator Differum needs a quaestor to handle the finances and
disperse funds.

G. Modius Athanasius



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>And, just for clarification the quote that you were responding to was the description of the series. The link is:
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> As I promised, here is another numismatic link, the "Roman
> Numismatic Gallery":
>
> http://www.numismatics.org/publications/romangeneral/
>
> This site has some of the most detailed and beautiful Roman
> numismatic photography on the net with sections on imperial
> portraiture, countermarks, legionary stamps, military diplomas,
> military equipment, officials, provinces, buildings, animals, gods
> and mintmarks on Roman coins.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

You are right, amice. It is an excellent link. Even though you had
already shared it with us in your last message about Roman coins ;-).

No problem, my dear Gai Iuli. We all make mistakes sometimes (good
Gods! I thought I would *never* say that to C. Iulius Scaurus!) :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

> We had a Governor who embezzled funds previously in Nova Roma. So, I would
> be very hesitant about the lack of financial oversight.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@...
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special


-----Original Message-----
From : "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@...>
Date : 15 May 2003 22:21:59
>
>And, just for clarification the quote that you were responding to was the description of the series. The link is:
>
I was maybe a little over-aggressive but this trite 'everybody knows' history annoys me. What everybody knows in this case is that the Babylonians and Romans, in that limbo called 'the Past' together forced 'the Jews' into exile from which they have a right to return ever since. There are examples from the other side, mainly the 'right' of some native peoples cheated by European invaders to return to their ancestral lands - which they often conquered off somebody else in the first place, so had no more entitlement than their supplanters. That view was promulgated by some to the detriment of others, in part the Samaritans, in part descendents of Israel (where Jesus is said to have come from) rather than Judaea, in part anti-Zionists Jews: "Stuttgart ist unser Zion" was one famous Rabbi's answer to early Zionism. An unfortunate choice! Obviously why the move to a political homeland never happened in Muslim lands where there was little persecution and nothing to stop Jews from migrating to that part of the Ottoman Empire if they chose.
There was a very good BBC series called I think just Jews which traced all the history. What we see is tainted by having incorporated itself in the religion just as Constantine did in Orthodoxy. King David brought the Ark to Jerusalem, a fine site, and Solomon built the Temple. But how did the people of Hebron feel about that? How were people worshiping before? There are occasions when the Ark is referenced in two places at the same time. One explanation is miracle, closely followed by the modern word for miracle, myth. A simpler explanation is that Jeovah being everywhere, could be manifest in more than one Ark, thus more than one Temple simultaneously as well as could any other divinity.

Caesariensis.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pjane" <pcassia@n...> wrote:
> At the beginning of this year, I accepted an invitation by Caeso
> Fabius to be part of his Cohors Consulis. I was not asked to pledge
> my loyalty to anyone, or to express (or refrain from expressing)
> any opinion.
>
> At that time, it seemed to me, as it does now, that C. Fabius was
> attempting to spread out a large amount of work so that neither he
> nor any member of his staff became overburdened. I joined because I
> am interested in working on behalf of Nova Roma. I have done so,
> most recently as Sextus Apollonius' assistant in the tax
> collection.
>
> In this particular case, the Cohors system proved effective. Sextus
> Apollonius, as it turned out, was moving to Paris during the time
> of the tax collection, and could not carry out all the duties he
> would normally have been assigned. Because of the Cohors
> organization, a deputy (me) had already been named, was aware of
> the project's scope and was available to help. Gnaeus Octavius
> Noricus did the lion's share of the work and should be given
> appropriate credit.

Thank you for "stepping forward" for that task, Patricia. I have to
say that this year's tax collection has been pretty smooth; that is a
clear sign of a lot of work from Cn. Octavius Noricus and you.

> In an organization such as this one, the problem of "volunteer
> fatigue" is very real.

Ah, this is too true. An excellent commentary, Patricia.

We should *always* keep in mind that Nova Roma is based on
*voluntary* work. None of our magistrates or their assistants gets
paid for their work, and most (if not all) of them do work countless
hours in this Republic's behalf.

So our consul has managed to convince 25 people to work with him for
no money, no compensations and (as it is clear now) no recognition.
How has he managed to do that? I don't know; I could barely convince
three or four people to do the same thing with me :-).

The consular cohors is not the ominous conspiracy some try to imply
it is; it is just a bunch of fellow Novoromans who try to do their
best. Getting a lot of people involved into the tasks of government
may have some drawbacks (things certainly get more complex when a lot
of people is involved), but it also has some benefits: instead of
having 25 people indulging in mud-sliding on this mailing list, we
keep them busy in activities that will profit us all :-).

So I think that the members of our consular cohors, and all the
magistrates of Nova Roma and their assistants, need and *deserve* our
constant support. Remember that these people are voluntarily
sacrificing some of their free time (in many cases, *most* of it) to
build a new Roman nation. They are working for us for free, citizens.

Does that mean that we have to agree with them in everything?
Certainly not. But perhaps there are better ways to express our own
ideas and concerns. One that does not place our *voluntary* work
system under unbearable strain. Constructive criticism, reasonable
debate, good manners; they seem like the best way to repay all that
effort and to put something from our part to build Nova Roma as well,
if we don't want to take part of the workload on our shoulders.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

> You are right, amice. It is an excellent link. Even though you had
> already shared it with us in your last message about Roman coins ;-).
>
> No problem, my dear Gai Iuli. We all make mistakes sometimes (good
> Gods! I thought I would *never* say that to C. Iulius Scaurus!) :-).

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Salici Asturi et omnibus Quiritibus salutem
> plurimam dicit.
>
> Avete, omnes.
>
> Veniam peto. I appear to have missed a click in cut and paste from
> bookmarks to word processor. Here is the _real_ link to the "Roman
> Numismatic Gallery":
>
> http://www.romancoins.info/
>
> This site has some of the most detailed and beautiful Roman
> numismatic photography on the net with sections on imperial
> portraiture, countermarks, legionary stamps, military diplomas,
> military equipment, officials, provinces, buildings, animals, gods
> and mintmarks on Roman coins.
>
> And here's a link to the Roman material on i-numis.com:
>
> http://www.i-numis.com/rome/alphabet.html
>
> The i-numis.com site, created by JŽr™me Mairat (a specialist in
> Roman coins) and StÂŽphan Sombart (a specialist in French royal
> numismatics), provides online articles and books on numismatics,
> including classic antiquarian works and recent scholarship. The
> Greek- and Roman-related material is generally very good. The site
> is available in French and English.
>
> Valete, omnes.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Two excellent suggestions, Gai Iuli. Thank you very much once again
:-).

> Sulla: Interesting, he has summoned the Senate twice and has
> summoned the Comitia once (for a runoff), where is this overburden
> of work? Last year when I was Consul I managed perfectly well with
> 1 Consular Quaestor, 1 Religious Advisor, 3 staff members. By this
> time last year every month (in which I had the fasces) had a
> comitia summons and nearly every month had a Senate summons as
> well. By this time last year about half of my laws were
> promulgated. So, I guess my question is, given my experience in
> being Consul (last year) what has changed between then and now to
> justify the huge staffing requirements?

> Sulla: Yes, but one of the many ways to counter volunteer fatigue
> is to have leadership and to lead by example. To date that is
> seriously lacking. What exactly has Consul Caeso Fabius done to
> show that he has lead Nova Roma as Consul? Where are the laws that
> he stated in his campaign he would promulgate? All we are getting
> to date is teased and diddled by his staff members, and there is
> noting to prevent us from coming to the conclusion that they know
> more about what is going on than the Senior Consul who has remained
> silent throughout this entire exchange, in addition when he does
> seem to have the fasces he gets called away on trips.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Gn Salici Asturi salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Gn. Salix.
>
> > You are right, amice. It is an excellent link. Even though you
> > had already shared it with us in your last message about Roman
> > coins ;-).
> >
> > No problem, my dear Gai Iuli. We all make mistakes sometimes
> > (good Gods! I thought I would *never* say that to C. Iulius
> > Scaurus!) :-).
>
> If my typographical skills were a measure of intelligence, you'd
> rightly take me for an imbecile. I am deeply grateful to the Gods
> that I'm in a line of work which doesn't require much manual
> dexterity, but, then, if I had been born in historical Rome, I'd
> likely have been exposed on a hillside shortly after birth or doomed
> to beggary, since I'm damned near blind without my glasses (and I
> don't have the artistic skills to try to follow Homer's career
> path).

I don't think that Cicero was too good juggling balls either, so you
don't have to worry :-). And Augustus spent most of his life sick...

> And this one is nothing compared to the time I glossed over an Old
> English typo ("hlafordscite" instead of the correct "hlafordscipe")
> in an overhead for a talk I was giving.

How could you...? I would never have made such a mistake! My
goodness! "Hlafordscite" instead of "hlafordscipe"... two words so
different! What were you thinking about?

I will forgive you this time. But the next time you make a
typographical error with a Northern Germanic dead language, consider
our friendship terminated.

;-).

> Someday we'll have a chat about why Vespasian didn't extend Latin
> rights to Asturia... :-).

Oh, that is very simple. He was afraid of us Spaniards. He knew that
if he granted us citizenship, we would control the Empire and we
would be so good that his own deeds would be all but forgotten. His
fears became a reality with Trajan and Hadrian :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Rose
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:28 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] L Cornelius' Unsubscription


G. Iulius Scaurus L. Cornelio Sullae Felici salutem dicit.

Salve, L. Corneli.

First let me apologise for having just sent this without the text. As
earlier, I hit the wrong damned key. However, I think I've found
something which may account for your unsubscription. In message 10488
C. Minucius Scarvola wrote:

"You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe."

However, in your reply in message 10490 the copy of C. Minucius'
original posting has an additional line:

"You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com"

I have no idea how how that extra line came into the text, but if you
accidently clicked on it, it would unsubscribe you.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Cohors Consulis


Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator Sulla.

Just one more comment...
Ave Praetor,


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Sulla: Interesting, he has summoned the Senate twice and has
> summoned the Comitia once (for a runoff), where is this overburden
> of work? Last year when I was Consul I managed perfectly well with
> 1 Consular Quaestor, 1 Religious Advisor, 3 staff members. By this
> time last year every month (in which I had the fasces) had a
> comitia summons and nearly every month had a Senate summons as
> well. By this time last year about half of my laws were
> promulgated. So, I guess my question is, given my experience in
> being Consul (last year) what has changed between then and now to
> justify the huge staffing requirements?

You seem to imply that the number of laws and senatusconsulta issued
by a consul is the only way to measure a consul's effectiveness.

Sulla: It is a certainly visible and quantifable means to judge the action of a Consul. Anything done behind the scenes is just that.

I must say that I do not agree with that concept: to me, the *quality*
of what is done is extremely important. And a consul has other duties
beyond issuing laws and edicts.

Sulla: LOL yes I am aware being Consul two times. However, one of the main jobs a Consul has is to promulgate laws and summon the Senate, since we do not have the ability make our mark via military means.

Besides that, I do remember how "constructive" your last consulship
was.

Sulla: So do I. Just becuase there is conflict does not mean that it cannot be constructive. I was very pleased about the number of laws I was able to promulgate.

> Sulla: Yes, but one of the many ways to counter volunteer fatigue
> is to have leadership and to lead by example. To date that is
> seriously lacking. What exactly has Consul Caeso Fabius done to
> show that he has lead Nova Roma as Consul? Where are the laws that
> he stated in his campaign he would promulgate? All we are getting
> to date is teased and diddled by his staff members, and there is
> noting to prevent us from coming to the conclusion that they know
> more about what is going on than the Senior Consul who has remained
> silent throughout this entire exchange, in addition when he does
> seem to have the fasces he gets called away on trips.

The senior consul has remained silent throughout this entire exchange
because, as he has announced on this very same list, he is not at
home.

Sulla: Right, I believe I pointed that out later in my post that nearly every time he has the fasces he has to leave his home.

Not everyone has all the time you devote to writing to this
mailing list, senator :-).

Sulla: Thats so true. ;)

As for leadership, I would say that
Quintillianus can barely be accused of lacking that, given that he
has convinced twenty-five people to devote their free time to Nova
Roma.

Sulla: That in does not mean anything. I seem to recall that last year as Governor he had to fire 3 people for lack of effort. I am curious to know how many people out of the 25 are actually productive. And how long it will be til we find out that he has to dismiss members of his Nova Byzantium staff for failure to complete assigned tasks.
Perhaps you should wait until the senior consul returns from his trip
so that he can reply to your comments all by himself. I have always
thought that one should not speak about those who are not present to
defend themselves :-).

Sulla: I have seen posts yesterday by our Consul. He has access to the list via individual emails or through the web archieves at Yahoogroups.

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com"
>
> I have no idea how how that extra line came into the text, but if

> accidently clicked on it, it would unsubscribe you.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:17 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Cohors Consulis
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius
> Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>

> You seem to imply that the number of laws and
> senatusconsulta issued
> by a consul is the only way to measure a consul's
> effectiveness.

> It is a certainly visible and quantifable
> means to judge the action of a Consul. Anything
> done behind the scenes is just that.

> I must say that I do not agree with that concept:
> to me, the *quality*
> of what is done is extremely important. And a
> consul has other duties
> beyond issuing laws and edicts.

> However, one of the main jobs a Consul has is to
> promulgate laws and summon the Senate, since we do
> not have the ability make our mark via military
> means.

> Vale,
> Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: <qfabiusmaxmi@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Concerning the Eagle was Re: Voting results. Comitia
plebis tributa


> In a message dated 5/15/03 1:41:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
spqr753@...
> writes:
>
>
> > The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years
Eagle.
> > That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will
submit
> > receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers
how
> > finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.
> >
> >
>
> And I received your latest issue before I left and read it on the plane.
> Well done. I'll be making a donation for 100.00 to the Eagle when I
return.
> I encourage those who can afford to subscribe to do it. It is becoming
less
> about Nova Roma, and more about Rome and Nova Roma, together. Excellent
> concept. And very marketable.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa


> In a message dated 5/15/2003 4:41:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> spqr753@... writes:
>
> > The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years
Eagle.
> > That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will
submit
> > receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers
how
> > finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.
>
> Personally, I think this is a terrible way to finance a publication. The
> Eagle is Nova Roma's publication. It should be publishing it, and not
> requiring one of its citizens to publish it and get reimbursed. Is there
no
> trust?
>
> The Eagle should have a budget that pays for the publishing and the
mailing.
> No one should have to pay for anything out of their pocket. If necessary
> perhaps the Curator Differum needs a quaestor to handle the finances and
> disperse funds.
>
> G. Modius Athanasius
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>