Salvete Quirites!

The voting in Comitia Populi Tributa has begun at 18.00 Roman time
Saturday the 24th of May (two hours ago). The issue at hand is the
proposed "Lex Fabia de Censo". Please go to
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html and select the link "VOTE NOW"!
Then follow the instructions!

This new Census law will lead to a cheaper Census, with the old law
the expances will be hard to control. Please vote for Lex Fabia de
Censo!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> Salve Honorable Q. Cassius Calvus!
> Well if You don't see that my alternative is much cheaper then I
> understand, but Lex Fabia de Censo is _much_ cheaper and that is a
> very good reason to vote for it!
>

Salve Honorable Consul,

Actually, I don't remember seeing a cost/benefit analysis posted to
show that one is cheaper than the other.

"I admit that I am on unsure ground in guessing, but I think You will
have to admit that You are too." -- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus in
response to Decimus Iunius Silanus' questions concerning expenses
(msg 10689 ) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10689

And you are right, it's really anyone's guess how much a census is
going to cost. Until the bills are tallied no one really knows. To
be honest, my guess using the Lex Cornelia ranges from a high of
US$954.00 to a low of US$630.00 My guess with your proposal is a
range of about $954.00 to a low of $630.00. Why, because the number
of citizens that fail to respond to the virutally no cost email and
then have to attempt contect via the more expensive methods would be
that same.

The system of using tax credits for reimbursement does lower the
initial cost this fiscal year, however it lowers next year's tax
revenue by the amount that it "saves" this year. Just for the sake
of example and these numbers are arbitrary. Let's assume that the
expenses occured during the census is US$750.00 Let's say the
expected tax revenue for next year is $1500.00 If $500.00 of the
expenses comes from this year and $250.00 in tax credits against next
year, next years tax revenue drops to $1250.00.

What if a person ends up spending more in out of pocket census
expense than their tax is for the next year? Do they not pay taxes
until they are fully credited? If so that lowers tax receipts for
several years to come. If not, then someone is out some money. This
of course does not include any potential bank interest lost from
future revenues that won't be collected due to tax credits (though to
be fair it would be pennies on the dollar).

To summarize, tax credits do lower the initial outlay, but at the
same time they lower future tax revenues. When figuring in the loss
of interest income from the lower future tax revenues tax credits
actually raise the total end cost of the census.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

I wrote:

> So I encourage you all to vote in
> favour of the lex Fabia.

You responded:

> Since you are on the Consul's staff, this is hardly
> an unbaised opinion. <G>

I can see how you would think that! I assure you that
if the Consul tried to put through a bill I thought
was not in the public interest, I would argue against
it - but of course there's no proof of that either!
:)

> In my mind the real question is the revival of the
> historical label "Socii" for a special group of non
> citizens. In my question concerning gens where all
> the members wind up being catagorized as "Socii" and
> whether the gens goes "extinct" or remains "closed
> but on the books", the answer was "closed but on the
> books." I'd personally rather see a gens
> go "extinct" as the "Socii" are not citizens and for
> all practical purposes a closed gens full of Socii
> is the same as an "extinct" gens.

I'd like to offer a personal perspective on this. When
I first came to Nova Roma, I was unusual in spending a
lengthy period (a few months) on the main list before
becoming a citizen - initially I was looking to see
what went on, then I was looking for a gens, and by
the time I'd submitted my application the elections
had begun, so I had to wait until they passed.

People do sometimes spend time on the main list or in
other parts of our community before acquiring
citizenship, and sometimes they adopt an unofficial
Roman name while awaiting their acceptance. So to my
mind, there is a use for the creation of a recognized
legal status which can embrace people who are not
citizens, but who are or have been members of the
community and might become or return as citizens.

The proposed law only explicitly addresses those who
have 'lapsed', but there is no reason why 'social'
status shouldn't also be extended to active members of
the community who are for some reason not citizens.
Not only are there those who haven't yet become
citizens but will or might do so; there may also be
those who are members of sodalitates or of gentes or
who just like to hang around in the back alley or
discuss the arts on the relevant e-mail lists, but who
do not want to be citizens.

Often these may be people who have been citizens,
decided that citizenship isn't for them, but want to
keep in touch with their old friends and family here.
These people are members of the community, and it's
useful to have a way to conceive of their place in
Nova Roman society and to treat them as persons before
the law. The proposed law allows citizens who wish to
let their citizenship lapse to remain in the same gens
as citizens who they used to and perhaps still do
regard as family, and to retain a place in our society
even if not formally in our state.

I hope this gives some ideas to persuade you and
others that the creation of 'socii' is not detrimental
but is in fact useful both for the immediate goal of
the census and for social developments in the longer
term.

Cordus

=====


www.strategikon.org


__________________________________________________
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Salvete, omnes -

On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 04:34:35PM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <cordus@s...> wrote:
> > A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
> > greetings.
>
> <snip>
>
> >So I encourage you all to vote in
> > favour of the lex Fabia.
> >
> > Thanks for your attention,
>
> Salve,
>
> Since you are on the Consul's staff, this is hardly an unbaised
> opinion. <G>

"Biased" does not mean "incorrect". I'm strongly biased in favor of the
survival of the human race, clear communications, and dealing fairly
with other people; my bias does not make those things any less positive.

> Truth of the matter is whether using the Lex Fabia or
> the Lex Cornelia version on the census this very first census is
> going to be expen$ive and there is no way to do it right and do it on
> the cheap.

On the cheap, no; there is, however, a way to do it right as long as
"right" is not equated with perfect, cheap/free, or any other absolute.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Honores mutant mores.
The honours change the customs. (Power corrupts.)
-- N/A

The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

#809

Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:

> Salvete, omnes -
>
> On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 04:34:35PM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus

wrote:

> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> > <cordus@s...> wrote:
> > > A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
> > > greetings.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >So I encourage you all to vote in
> > > favour of the lex Fabia.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your attention,
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Since you are on the Consul's staff, this is hardly an unbaised
> > opinion. <G>
>
> "Biased" does not mean "incorrect". I'm strongly biased in favor of

the

> survival of the human race, clear communications, and dealing fairly
> with other people; my bias does not make those things any less

positive.

>

There is a reason for the <G> at the end of that. The <G> indicates
meant as humor, not an expression of an opinion of correctness or
incorrectness of the statement.

> > Truth of the matter is whether using the Lex Fabia or
> > the Lex Cornelia version on the census this very first census is
> > going to be expen$ive and there is no way to do it right and do

it on

> > the cheap.
>
> On the cheap, no; there is, however, a way to do it right as long as
> "right" is not equated with perfect, cheap/free, or any other

absolute.

Perfect is impossible as long as humans remain in the equation, and
like you I'm strongly biased that humans remain in the equation.
<G>

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> I wrote:
> > So I encourage you all to vote in
> > favour of the lex Fabia.
>
> You responded:
> > Since you are on the Consul's staff, this is hardly
> > an unbaised opinion. <G>
>
> I can see how you would think that! I assure you that
> if the Consul tried to put through a bill I thought
> was not in the public interest, I would argue against
> it - but of course there's no proof of that either!
> :)
>

LOL! Glad you have a sense of humor as well as duty. I think you'd
write yourself into Carpal Tunnel Syndrome to dissuade what you
believe to be a bad bill from ever getting to the Contio
stage.

>
> I hope this gives some ideas to persuade you and
> others that the creation of 'socii' is not detrimental
> but is in fact useful both for the immediate goal of
> the census and for social developments in the longer
> term.

I don't think the Socii idea is a bad idea as it doesn't cost
anything extra. I also think it sends a good message to the 'socii'
that they haven't been forgotten and are welcome back anytime.
However, it also sends a negative message to those looking to join
Nova Roma that Nova Roma has a high "attrition rate" when they learn
that 'socii' are people who were citizens but have kinda slipped
away.

Back last year when Sulla put to a vote the LEX CORNELIA OCTAVIA DE
RATIONE COMITIORUM CENTURIATORUM and the LEX CORNELIA VEDIA DE
RATIONE COMITIORUM POPULI TRIBUTORUM, I questioned him on what the
difference was and why should I vote for them as I'm not the type of
person to vote in favor of a new law to overturn old law(s) just for
the sake of a new law when the benefits are negligible.

The only strong opinion I have about the Census is that Nova Roma
needs one and needs one done to the best of human ability as soon as
possible. To be honest, I really don't care if its conducted via the
Lex Cornelia or the Lex Fabia. I just want to have some questions
answered as I think of them before I vote one way or the other. When
I do make up my mind and vote, the questions stop.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 09:17:24PM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 04:34:35PM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Since you are on the Consul's staff, this is hardly an unbaised
> > > opinion. <G>
> >
> > "Biased" does not mean "incorrect". I'm strongly biased in favor of
> the
> > survival of the human race, clear communications, and dealing fairly
> > with other people; my bias does not make those things any less
> positive.
> >
>
> There is a reason for the <G> at the end of that. The <G> indicates
> meant as humor, not an expression of an opinion of correctness or
> incorrectness of the statement.

Yep; agreed. However, the <G[rin]> doesn't change the validity (or
otherwise) of the statement that immediately precedes it, either, and -
since it was humorous - I wanted to make a clarifying point about it.
Especially given that this statement had recently been tendered
seriously, as if it was some sort of a disqualification.

> > > Truth of the matter is whether using the Lex Fabia or
> > > the Lex Cornelia version on the census this very first census is
> > > going to be expen$ive and there is no way to do it right and do
> it on
> > > the cheap.
> >
> > On the cheap, no; there is, however, a way to do it right as long as
> > "right" is not equated with perfect, cheap/free, or any other
> absolute.
>
> Perfect is impossible as long as humans remain in the equation, and
> like you I'm strongly biased that humans remain in the equation.
> <G>

<laugh> Too right. That's exactly how I was looking at it - politics
being the art of compromise. I believe that the Consul has hammered out
a solid, effective implementation for this census, including doing as
much as possible to reduce costs while maintaining a high level of
confidence (statistically speaking) in the returned results. That's what
I'd call a good compromise.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Fortes fortuna adiuvat.
Fortune favours the brave.
-- Terence, "Phormio"

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:

> Yep; agreed. However, the <G[rin]> doesn't change the validity (or
> otherwise) of the statement that immediately precedes it, either,

and -

> since it was humorous - I wanted to make a clarifying point about

it.

> Especially given that this statement had recently been tendered
> seriously, as if it was some sort of a disqualification.

Not a problem, I fully understand where you're coming from.

Q. Cassius Calvus

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I think it might be useful to do a point-by-point comparison of the
Leges Cornelia and Fabia de censo. I am not a member of the consular
cohors, and I don't see the Lex Fabia as repudiating the legacy of L.
Cornelius. Indeed, I don't think the Lex Fabia would be nearly so
good without the Lex Cornelia as an example. The Lex Fabia, in my
view, is an attempt to improve on the Lex Cornelia and accomplish the
task which both C. Fabius and L. Cornelius rightly see as an urgent
one for NR. Since the comparison quotes the text of both leges, it is
a bit long, but I hope that cives read it through, since it is
difficult to make an informed choice without examining both laws in
detail. The comparison follows below.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

COMPARISON OF LEGES CORNELIA AND FABIA DE CENSO

1. Occurrence and responsibility.

LEX CORNELIA: I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done
every 2 years. This would be the responsibility of the Censors.

LEX FABIA: I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done
every 2 years. This would be the responsibility of the Censors.

DIFFERENCE: None.

2. Duration and announcement.

LEX CORNELIA: II. The Nova Roma Census will last for a period of 8
weeks, and must be completed by the Ides of September. The start and
end of the census period will be announced by the Censors on the NR
website, official lists, and in the major forums. The official lists
are currently located at nova-roma@yahoogroups.com and
NovaRoma-Announce@.... Notification must also be published on
the Nova Roma Message board.

LEX FABIA: II. The Nova Roma Census will last for a period of 16
weeks, and must be completed by the "Pridie Kal. Novembris" (the 31st
of October). The start and end of the Census period will be announced
by the Censors on the NR website, official lists, and in the major
forums. The official lists are currently located at
nova-roma@yahoogroups.com and NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com.
Notification must also be published on the Nova Roma Message board.
The Censors shall also ask the Governors to announce the Census period
on the provincial level.

DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia increases census period from 8 to 16 weeks,
ending it on Pridie Kal. Novembris rather than the Ides of September,
and asks governor to announce the census on the provincia level. The
longer census period allows for quicker detection and resolution of
potential problems in the census.

3. Criteria for active citizenship.

LEX CORNELIA: A. Active citizens are those citizens that do not need
to be contacted by the Censors to determine if they are apart of Nova
Roma:
1. Those citizens who voted in the main election (in December) shall
be considered "censi."
2. Those citizens who have paid taxes for the current calendar year
shall be considered "censi".
3. Paterfamiliae who have successfully responded to the yearly
registration of the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum
Agendis shall be considered ÒcensiÓ.
4. Persons who became citizens during the current calendar year shall
be considered "censi".

LEX FABIA: Those who meet any of the following criteria will still be
considered citizens:
1. Those who voted in the main election (in November and/or December).
2. Those who have paid taxes for the current calendar year.
3. Patres Familias who have successfully responded to the yearly
registration of the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis.
4. Persons who became citizens during the current calendar year.
5. Persons who are successfully contacted as described in section IV.

DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia explicitly recognises persons successfully
contacted by the census as active citizens.

4. Criterion for inactive citizenship:

LEX CORNELIA: IV. Inactive citizens are those citizens who fail to
meet at least one of the conditions in IV A. The following will lay
down some of the procedures to contact inactive citizens. Inactive
citizens are those citizens who will need to be contacted by the
National Census.

LEX FABIA: IV. "Inactive" citizens are those who fail to meet at least
one of the conditions in III. The following will lay down some of the
procedures to contact inactive citizens. Inactive citizens are those
who will need to be contacted by the National Census.

DIFFERENCE: None.

5. First means of census contact.

LEX CORNELIA: A. Bulk Email. At least two attempts should be done to
contact citizen via this avenue.

LEX FABIA: A. Bulk Email. At least two attempts should be done to
contact citizen via this avenue.

DIFFERENCE: None.

6. Second means of contact.

LEX CORNELIA: B. Individual email. If a Citizen email bounces back as
invalid from the bulk email, the Censors shall send them an individual
email to verify there was not a problem with an email service filter.

LEX FABIA: B. Surface mail. "Inactive" Citizens who are unreachable
by email shall receive a mailing. This shall be done on the provincial
level by Governors and legati under the supervision of the Censors. In
those Provinciae where there are not a Governor and in those areas not
included in a Provincia yet the Censors shall ask a Governor of a
Provincia as near as possible to where that "inactive" Citizen lives.
If this is not possible it shall be done by the Censors. Surface mail
information should be forwarded to whatever official Nova Roman
address that is specified by the Censors. Surface mail information
must reach the Censors before the Pridie Kal. Novembris (the 31st of
October). The Current Official address of all Nova Roman Mail
correspondence is: Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897 Wells, ME 04090. At the
time of the passage of this lex, the above address is the official
address; if the official address changes in the future, the new
address should be utilized.

DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia eliminates individual email as a screening
method (bounces are more likely to arise from defunct addresses than
email filters) and introduces surface mail as second means of contact
with provincial administration participating in this step. This
decentralises the labour burden of surface mailing.

7. Third means of contact.

LEX CORNELIA: C. Phone calls. If a Citizen is unreachable due to an
invalid email address, the Censors shall attempt to contact them by
phone. This may be done on the Provincial level under the direction of
the Censors if possible.

LEX FABIA: C. Phone calls. If a Citizen is unreachable by e-mail or
surface mail, he/she shall be contacted by phone. This shall be done
on the provincial level by Governors and legati under the supervision
of the Censors. In those Provinciae where there is not a Governor and
in and it can be done by the Governor of a Provincia as near as
possible to where the "inactive" Citizen lives upon request of the
Censors, or by a Censors themself.

DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia stresses that phone contact should take place
primarily on the provincial level, where the call is likely to be less
expensive.

8. Census advertising banner.

LEX CORNELIA: E. A temporary banner and link will be put on the main
NR website for the duration of the Census, where individual citizens
may input their information to comply with the Census.

LEX FABIA: D. A temporary banner and link will be put on the main Nova
Roma website for the duration of the Census, where individual citizens
may input their information to comply with the Census. Further, the
Censors shall recommend such a banner and link to be put on any other
Nova Roman website (Provinces, Magistrates, Sodalitates)

DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia extends the number of NR sites where the census
is advertised.

7. Central database.

LEX CORNELIA: V. All communicated information pertaining to the Census
shall be noted in a database on the Nova Roma Website, the address of
which will be specified by the Censores at the beginning of the
Registration Period. Citizen information may be inputted into this
database by the Censores, their appointed assistants, or by the
individual citizens.

LEX FABIA: V. All communicated information pertaining to the Census
shall be noted in a database on the Nova Roma Website, the address of
which will be specified by the Censores at the beginning of the
Registration Period. Citizen information may be entered into this
database by the Censores, their appointed assistants, or by the
individual citizens.

DIFFERENCE: None.

8. Deadline for posting names of those who have failed to respond.

LEX CORNELIA: VI. By the Ides of August, the Censors should post a
list to the official email list of Nova Roma displaying the names of
those citizens who have failed to respond.

LEX FABIA: VI. By the "Pridie Kal. Septembris" (the 30st of
September)., the Censors should post a list to the official email
lists of Nova Roma displaying the names of those citizens who have
failed to respond.

DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia extends deadline for posting names of those who
have failed to respond.

9. Expulsion of non-responders.

LEX CORNELIA: VII. If a citizen fails to respond to the contact
attempts, that person will no longer be considered a citizen of Nova
Roma. His name will be stricken from the Album Civium and if he/she is
a Pater/Mater, the Censors will abide by the Constitution, any laws,
and any Censorial edict if the appointment of a paterfamilias is
necessary. However, the Censors have the discretion to waive this
clause if both Censors feel there are legitimate reasons for the
citizen to remain incommunicado.

LEX FABIA: VII. If a citizen fails to respond to the contact attempts,
that person will be considered a "Socius" (Ally), but not a citizen.
If he/she is a Pater/Mater Familias, he/she immediately lose this
position and the Censors will abide by the Constitution, any laws, and
any Censorial edict if the appointment of a Pater Familias is
necessary. However, the Censors have the discretion to waive this
clause if both Censors feel there are legitimate reasons for the
citizen to remain incommunicado.

DIFFERENCE: Lex Cornelia severs relationship between non-responders
and NR; Lex Fabia classifies non-responders as socii and permits them
to return and resume their Roman names at a later time.

10. Unavailability exemption.

LEX CORNELIA: VIII. If a citizen who knows of an extended period of
unavailability that will coincide with the census, he may contact the
censors up to 3 months before the census is to begin to inform them of
his active status and his desire to be counted in the census. Such
contact will be considered by the censors as having fulfilled the
citizen's duty to reply during the census period. Proxies are not
permitted during the National Census effort.

LEX FABIA: VIII. If a citizen knows of an extended period of
unavailability that will coincide with the census, he may contact the
Censors up to 3 months before the census is to begin to inform them of
his active status and his desire to be counted in the census. Such
contact will be considered by the Censors as having fulfilled the
citizen's duty to reply during the census period. Proxies are not
permitted during the National Census effort.

DIFFERENCE: None.

11. Appeal of expulsion for census non-response.

LEX CORNELIA: IX. A former citizen may appeal to the Senate to have
his removal from the Album Civium reconsidered. Such an appeal must be
filed with the consuls within 90 days of the former citizens removal
from the Album Civium. A 2/3rds vote of the Senate is needed to
overturn the decision of the censors.

LEX FABIA: IX. At any time, a Socius may contact the Censores and ask
to regain his/her Citizenship, which will then be granted unless there
are compelling reasons otherwise.

DIFFERENCE: Since the Lex Fabia expels no one from NR, it does not
involve an appeal to the Senate, and return to active status from
socius is handled by the Censores.

12. Indication of status in the Album Civium.

LEX CORNELIA: VII. If a citizen fails to respond to the contact
attempts, that person will no longer be considered a citizen of Nova
Roma. His name will be stricken from the Album Civium...

LEX FABIA: X. In the Album Civium it shall be clearly indicated
whether an individual is a Civis (citizen) or a Socius.

DIFFERENCE: The difference is a consequence of the Lex Fabia expelling
no one from NR as a result of census non-response.

13. Reimbursal of magistrates for census expenses.

LEX CORNELIA: No explicit provision for method; reimbursal is implied
in a subsequent section.

LEX FABIA: XI. At the end of the National Census Postage or Telephone
expenses incurred by the magistrate will be reimbursed by either a
monetary payment or a tax credit. All such payments or credits are
done in exchange for reciepts, reciept copies and bills (if reciepts
are not possible to get) and must be approved by the Senate. It will
be up to the Censors to choose which of these two methods to follow to
compensate the other involved magistrates, according to criteria of
saving. Further it will be up to the Senate to authorize payout. It
shall be up to the Senate to choose which of these two methods to
follow to compensate the Censors, according to criteria of saving.

DIFFERENCE: The Lex Fabia outlines precisely the procedure for
reimbursal of documented expenses associated with the census.

14. Budget for census.

LEX CORNELIA: X. A budget is to be provided for the Censors' Office to
offset costs for conducting the census. This budget is to be included
only for the years that a Census takes place. The amount to be set
aside would be established by the Senate of Nova Roma.

LEX FABIA: XII. A budget shall be allocated by the Senate to meet
expenses to compensate magistrates involved in the Census.

DIFFERENCE: The Lex Fabia allows budgeting for reimbursal to
provincial magistrates as well as the Censores' office, since it
actively involves provincial magistrates in conducting the census.

Salvete cives,

Having read the discussions back and forth and especially G. Iulius
Scarus' most useful point by point comparison and Q. Cassius Calvus'
cost comparison, I have decided to vote against this law and
encourage all Nova Romans to do the same.

As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be about
the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the matter of
reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law. The extant law
doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the new proposal
specifies an unfair solution. Those involved with the census would be
paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax credit for the
following year. Which one the censors and not the person assisting in
carrying out the census would decide. This should be the choice of
the individual performing the tasks, not the censors. Frankly, I
think the only option should be direct reimbursement and not a
delayed tax credit. "Sure, we'll repay your expenses--eventually."
That attitude doesn't speak well for us though I admit it is a minor
issue.

Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the workload this would
create for the governors and their staffs and I encourage you to
reread his comments.

The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR. However, the more
I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our main
problem: inactive citizens. It essentially will say: "Of 1700 people
who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not bother to
reply to our census, vote or pay taxes." (based on the estimated high
number of 400 active citizens which is probably closer to 300-350) It
will advertise our main weakness, thus will not be a good recruiting
tool. Either these people should be removed from the rolls of
citizens as the current census law calls for or they should remain in
the head count.



For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this law.
I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
was ignored last year. Why would this one not be ignored also? They
will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?

A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it) there
is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and pass
different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before allowing
the original programs to work so the flaws in the system can be
discovered. Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or
perhaps it is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there
often is a desire to turn the system upside down every year. There is
much uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
revisit old ground. Let's allow the original census law to be carried
out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius, Senator
(Praetor)

[-note, just for the record, this post is a personal opinion, not an
official praetorian position.]

G. Iulius Scaurus Q. Cassio Calvo salutem dicit.

Salve, Q. Cassi.

> Actually, I don't remember seeing a cost/benefit analysis posted to
> show that one is cheaper than the other.

I think that the chief way in which the Lex Fabia will reduce costs is
by shifting phone contact for the census more locally to the provinces
and regions. It also reduces the unpaid, but no less real, labour
costs of the Lex Cornelia's individual email procedure.

One factor of which neither the Lex Cornelia nor the Lex Fabia takes
account is the use of postcards for the surface mail contact phase.
If the surface mail contact is done in the US (I think this is also
true of the rest of the rest of the world, but I don't have the
precise numbers) by a postcard which bears the relevant email and
postal addresses for the inactive citizen to contact for the census
rather than a letter and envelope, the postage cost is reduced by
37.84%, $.27 for a postcard versus $.37 for a first class letter (bulk
mail rates are less expensive than first class, but not less than
those for a postcard, and bulk mail would involve rather more unpaid
labour costs in sorting and packaging at the provincial level ).
Cardstock is less expensive than envelopes and 8.5x11 paper and
entails far less in unpaid labour costs in folding and stuffing. A
.pdf file with the information to be printed on the cards could be
posted to the main website and download and computer-printed locally
in the provinces on cardstock. Regardless of the law under which the
census takes place, I strongly urge the Censores to adopt the use of
postcards for the surface mail phase of census contact.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salvete, omnes -

On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:06:52AM -0000, deciusiunius wrote:
>
> The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
> this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR. However, the more
> I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our main
> problem: inactive citizens. It essentially will say: "Of 1700 people
> who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not bother to
> reply to our census, vote or pay taxes." (based on the estimated high
> number of 400 active citizens which is probably closer to 300-350) It
> will advertise our main weakness, thus will not be a good recruiting
> tool. Either these people should be removed from the rolls of
> citizens as the current census law calls for or they should remain in
> the head count.

As a contrasting perspective, I would find the last option deceptive and
unworthy of Nova Roma. If these inactive citizens are admitted to be a
weakness - a viewpoint I do not share - then it is far better to be
honest about it than to pretend otherwise.

Misleading prospective citizens is something that I would find
reprehensible. 1700 is no more impressive to me that is 400 - and
neither number is particularly important. Anyone who decides not to join
NR because our numbers don't meet some hypothetical magic mark is
looking for quantity over quality, and would be better served by joining
the Million Man March.

> For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this law.
> I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
> was ignored last year. Why would this one not be ignored also? They
> will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?

As G. Iulius Scaurus' post showed, the expenses under the new census law
will be lower since they would be done at the local level. There's no
basis fo claiming that they will be "about the same" without any numbers
to support a conclusion; in fact, the only real conclusion that can be
drawn from available data is that it _will_ cost less, since local calls
and local mail cost less - in most cases, significantly less - than
their long-distance equivalents.

> A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it) there
> is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and pass
> different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before allowing
> the original programs to work so the flaws in the system can be
> discovered. Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or
> perhaps it is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there
> often is a desire to turn the system upside down every year. There is
> much uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
> revisit old ground. Let's allow the original census law to be carried
> out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.

A poor law that is already on the books is still a poor law. This new
law is not an addition to our system, but an improvement which would
replace an existing one - at no cost. Since the old law was never
implemented, there's no cost of change involved, either - the only
effect of the proposed change is a positive one. As well, I believe that
lessening and distributing the expenses of the census makes it more apt
to be implemented - the current law divides the expenditure among a very
small number, and their hesitation to spend a large amount is fully
understandable, whereas a more distributed solution, especially one that
only involves local communications, is far more likely to actually
happen.


I urge those who want a less expensive, more effective, and more honest
census to vote FOR the Lex Fabia de Censo.

Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit.
No fort is so strong that it cannot be taken with money.
-- Cicero, "In Verrem"

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to a splendid bibliography of classical studies, the
"Bibliographie d'orientation":

http://www.fusl.ac.be/Files/General/BCS/BOPlan.html

The "Bibliographie d'orientation" is part of the "Bibliotheca Classica
Selecta," a project organised by two Belgian professors, John Marries
Hannick (UniversitÂŽ de Louvain-la-Neuve ) and Jacques Poucet
(UniversitÂŽ de Louvain-la-Neuve and FacultÂŽs universitaires
Saint-Louis, Bruxelles), as a bibliographic introduction to classical
studies. To call this bibliography "introductory" is an act of great
humility by its compilers, since its depth as well as breadth is
considerable and its only weaknesses are the understandable decision
not to include journal articles (compilation of a comparable
bibliography of the journal literature would probably be a lifework)
and the exclusion of older works (references to which, the compilers
indicate, can found in the bibliographies of the works cited therein).
While the text is in French, the works cited range through the best
scholarship in most of the western European languages.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salvete

> This new Census law will lead to a cheaper Census,

With respect consul, cheaper is a relative word :-)

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
A Governor who may soon be press-ganged into conducting a mass mail out in
his province <G>

Salvete Quirites; et salve, D. Iuni.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be
> about the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the
> matter of reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law.

I also read this statement by Cassius Calvus, but I have yet to find
any rationale behind it.

I am sure that you all understand that international snail mail and
phone calls are far more expensive than local ones; I guess that
doing those things on a local level necessarily has to reduce the
expense.

> The extant law doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the
> new proposal specifies an unfair solution. Those involved with the
> census would be paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax
> credit for the following year. Which one the censors and not the
> person assisting in carrying out the census would decide. This
> should be the choice of the individual performing the tasks, not
> the censors. Frankly, I think the only option should be direct
> reimbursement and not a delayed tax credit. "Sure, we'll repay your
> expenses--eventually." That attitude doesn't speak well for us
> though I admit it is a minor issue.

Given that, as you have pointed out, our current law does not speak
about reimbursement, things are even worse now :-).

> Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the workload this
> would create for the governors and their staffs and I encourage you
> to reread his comments.

I see this task as an opportunity to actually kick our provincial
administrations back into action. This clear goal might put them in
motion again and encourage them to move beyond this census in the
service of our citizenry. It is not an excessive workload but
inactivity the ailment that afflicts many of our current provincial
governments.

> The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
> this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR. However, the
> more I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our
> main problem: inactive citizens. It essentially will say: "Of 1700
> people who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not
> bother to reply to our census, vote or pay taxes." (based on the
> estimated high number of 400 active citizens which is probably
> closer to 300-350) It will advertise our main weakness, thus will
> not be a good recruiting tool. Either these people should be
> removed from the rolls of citizens as the current census law calls
> for or they should remain in the head count.

I have always supported "inclusion" rather than "exclusion". I think
that the idea of the socii allows us to dimensionate our services to
a known number of citiznes while keeping a potential number of people
as citizens-to-be in the future. It is a good solution, in my
opinion.

> For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this
> law.
> I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
> was ignored last year. Why would this one not be ignored also? They
> will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?

This will be less expensive. And last year we had different consules
and a different censor.

> A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it)
> there is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and
> pass different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before
> allowing the original programs to work so the flaws in the system
> can be discovered.
> Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or perhaps it
> is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there often is a
> desire to turn the system upside down every year. There is much
> uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
> revisit old ground. Let's allow the original census law to be
> carried out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.

As you have pointed out, the current law was allowed an opportunity.
No census was conducted last year *because* of the way in which that
law was written, and not *even if* that law was written. So our
current law *failed* to produce the desired results. We need a new
law.

> [-note, just for the record, this post is a personal opinion, not
> an official praetorian position.]

Ditto :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to a splendid bibliography of classical studies, the
> "Bibliographie d'orientation":
>
> http://www.fusl.ac.be/Files/General/BCS/BOPlan.html
>
> The "Bibliographie d'orientation" is part of the "Bibliotheca
> Classica Selecta," a project organised by two Belgian professors,
> John Marries Hannick (Université de Louvain-la-Neuve ) and Jacques
> Poucet (Université de Louvain-la-Neuve and Facultés universitaires
> Saint-Louis, Bruxelles), as a bibliographic introduction to
> classical studies. To call this bibliography "introductory" is an
> act of great humility by its compilers, since its depth as well as
> breadth is considerable and its only weaknesses are the
> understandable decision not to include journal articles
> (compilation of a comparable bibliography of the journal literature
> would probably be a lifework) and the exclusion of older works
> (references to which, the compilers indicate, can found in the
> bibliographies of the works cited therein).
> While the text is in French, the works cited range through the best
> scholarship in most of the western European languages.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Thank you very much for this suggestion, Gai Iuli.

Although I am just an amateur scholar, there is a point where you
start thinking "I would need to know where to look for more
information on this subject". This bibliography comes to fill in the
void.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Salvete C Flavius Diocletianus and M Iulius Perusianus.

Thank you for the information.

I am really looking forward to my visit and hope to take full advantage
of the site seeing and wine tasting.

Valete

Gaia Flavia Aureliana

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release Date: 06/05/2003



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius et Salvete Quirites!

>Having read the discussions back and forth and especially G. Iulius
>Scarus' most useful point by point comparison and Q. Cassius Calvus'
>cost comparison, I have decided to vote against this law and
>encourage all Nova Romans to do the same.

Honorable Q. Cassius Calvus clearly hasn't understood the costs
advantages of Lex Fabia de Censo. I will point out these advantage
below,

>As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be about
>the same so it is not a matter of saving money,

This is wrong!

>though the matter of
>reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law. The extant law
>doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the new proposal
>specifies an unfair solution.

It isn't a question of being unfair. This way of compensating
Census-assistants will be CHEAPER if used in regard to assistants in
Europe, South America, Asia, Africa and Australia.

You see it will cost money to send money to these contiinents from
our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
solution to this.

How much cheaper it will be it is hard to say (especially as I don't
know the exact costs to send money from North America) but the
formula would be somnething like: the number of non-North Amercan
citizens times the cost to send money from North Ameriuca to the
other continents.

If the cost of safe sending of reimbursement to each assistant
outside of North America would be as low as $5 and the assistants
would be as few as 26 which is too low according to my view, then the
costs according to Lex Cornelia would be at least $130 more than Lex
Fabia. That is Lex Fabia is cheaper and could well be _much_ cheaper
with other figures!

I have assumed that the Censors according to Lex Cornelia would need
at least one assistant per one-country Provinciae and one per country
in the multi-country Provinciae, added to that I have just added four
assistants for Africa and Asia.

If You add the international phone required by Lex Cornelia, but
possibly lowered by calling from neigbouring contries as in Lex
Fabia, once again Lex Fabia will be cheaper. It is hard to calculate
how much cheaper this would make Lex Fabia though.

>Those involved with the census would be
>paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax credit for the
>following year. Which one the censors and not the person assisting in
>carrying out the census would decide. This should be the choice of
>the individual performing the tasks, not the censors.

As You see above You have made the wrong assumption, the tax credit
isn't constructed to be fair for individuals, but it is constructed
to be cheaper for Nova Roma.

>Frankly, I
>think the only option should be direct reimbursement and not a
>delayed tax credit.

As I have shown above that would be much more expensive.

>"Sure, we'll repay your expenses--eventually."
>That attitude doesn't speak well for us though I admit it is a minor
>issue.

I hope that You now see that this isn't the purpose of this tax credit idea.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

I'm pleased to announce that we've finalized plans for Roman Market Day
2003!

Since we exceeded the capacity of last year's site, we have moved to an
equestrian park in Hollis, Maine, about 15 minutes from Saco or
Kennebunk. Because it's already horse-friendly, we may even be able to
enlist some horses and their people to demonstrate Roman horse kit! As
usual, we'll have gladiators, exhibits, demonstrations and food.

We're looking for a few volunteers, all of whom would of course receive
free admission and probably food:

-- Military re-enactors: We would love to have as many people as
possible in kit to help illustrate the life of a Roman soldier.

-- Costumed civilians (men, women and children), to appear in a
presentation on Roman social life and clothing.

-- Staff for the Nova Roma table, handing out information about the
organization and selling NR products such as bumper stickers and
T-shirts.

-- And the ever-popular jobs of helping with parking and trash!

Full details are at http://www.romanmarketday.com We'd love to see as
many Nova Romans as possible! E-mail me at pcassia@... if
you'd like to help.

If you'd like to sell Roman-related wares at Roman Market Day, e-mail
our vendor coordinators, Laurentius Cassius and Varia Cassia (Lawrence
and Julie Brooks) at lawrensnest@....

We look forward to seeing you there!



-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@...

The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

#818

Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix

The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

#819

Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix

Salve,

Contrary to what some may presume, I understand the costs very well.
Under the Fabian plan to utilize the provincial governors the initial
costs of postage is lower but then when one adds in the costs of
international money transfer to reimburse the governors it jumps
dramatically. For instance in Vendia if 10 people require letters
the cost after monetary conversion from Polish Zltoys to US$ is $4.90
cents vs. $8.00 to send those same letters from the United States.
Great you just saved almost 50%. However to send that $4.90
reimbursement to Poland from Nova Roma's treasury it costs on average
$15.00 or 3 times the amount being reimbursed! The cheapest form of
international money order I could find is from the United States Post
Office ($3.25), but there is a catch, there is absolutelty not a
single country in Europe that accepts them!

But we'll make it up in phone costs, right. Wrong for it costs ten
cents a minute to call Poland from the US, 10 one minute phone calls
is a $1.00


Here are the real numbers folks:

PROVINCE %50 POP POSTAGE FROM USA in US$ POSTAGE IN
COUNTRY in US$ CORNELIA COST FABIA COST in US$ Money
Transfer Costs under FABIA NOTES
Britannia 41 $0.80 $0.46 $32.80 $18.86 $15.00
British Pound
Gallia 35 $0.80 $0.58 $28.00 $20.30 $15.00 Euro
Germania 34 $0.80 $0.65 $27.20 $22.10 $15.00
Euro
Hispania 61 $0.80 $0.31 $48.80 $18.91 $15.00
Euro
Italia 82 $0.80 $0.73 $65.60 $59.86 $15.00 Euro
Pannonia 14 $0.80 $0.28 $11.20 $3.92 $15.00
Slovakian Koruny
Samatia 3 $0.80 $2.40 $2.40 No
Gov.
Thule 19 $0.80 $0.64 $15.20 $12.16 $15.00 SE
Krona
Vendia 10 $0.80 $0.49 $8.00 $4.90 $15.00 Zloty
$239.20 $163.41 $120.00

The Lex Cornelia assuming everything based out of the USA would cost
$239.00 in postage to reach %50 of the citizens in Europe. It would
cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the provinces, but cost
$120.00 in international money transfer fees to reimburse the
governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone.

I got my world wide postage rates from
http://www.atms.ch/rates/index.php

I used http://www.xe.com/ucc/ for the currency conversion

I'm posting my spreadsheet to the ML's files so people can take a
better look at the numbers for Europe alone. If this is saving Nova
Roma money, I don't think Nova Roma can afford much more "savings."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.

File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
Description : Excel Spreadsheet showing actual cost of Census Cornelian Vs. Fabian

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>

Salve Romans


.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents from
our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
solution to this."....


...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees to reimburse the
governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....

These two passages from posts on the census law brings up another point I have been thinking about for some time.

Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.


I think the Nova Roma needs......

A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!

I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)

We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors or at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each would be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.

May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes

This is just a quick note to tell the world that I
paid my taxes late (early May) and they seem to have
been lost in the mail for I have not received a
message of their receipt. I'll be checking with the
post office to see if they can't track it down, but
hopes are low. Let it not be said, then, that I am
inactive - just shafted by the mail system.
Valete!

=====
Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

Salve Curator!

>Salve Romans
>
>
>.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents from
>our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
>solution to this."....
>
>
>...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the
>provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees to
>reimburse the
>governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
>than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....

How many times must I say that it is the other way around? According
to Lex Cornelia the Censors must organise the Census and there is no
provincial Census organisation. Of course theCensors could build a
special Census organisation, but the compensation must be payed from
the central Treasury that is located in USA. This mean that Lex
Cornelia will be more expensive as it has to use international money
orders!

As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.

I find it astonishing that You try to tell me, a Propraetor, about
the costs for international money orders. I have together with other
Governors tried to adjust the tax rules to accomodate to these facts
for many years.

Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have misread
the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
am sure that You don't want to lie.

>These two passages from posts on the census law brings up another
>point I have been thinking about for some time.
>
>Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.
>
>
>I think the Nova Roma needs......
>
>A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!
>
>I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)
>
>We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors or
>at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each would
>be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two
>permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.
>
>May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought

Interesting idea. I am not sure that your proposal is what we need,
but I am sure You have pointed out an interesting problem. But, still
Europe isn't the USE (United States of Europe), it may still be hard
to transfer money from one country to another. So itis abit more
complecated. Still it is worth looking into.

>Vale
>
>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salvete Qurites et Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!

>Salve,
>
>Contrary to what some may presume, I understand the costs very well.
>Under the Fabian plan to utilize the provincial governors the initial
>costs of postage is lower but then when one adds in the costs of
>international money transfer to reimburse the governors it jumps
>dramatically.

You are right about the advantages of Lex Fabia, but You show clearly
that You haven't understood Lex Fabia de Censo when it, for example,
comes to reimbursements. It is exactly because of the problems
mentioned above, that there is a provision to allow Governors and
Legati in Europe, South America, Africa, Asia and Australia to be
compensated by using tax credits. Re-read the proposal!

> For instance in Vendia if 10 people require letters
>the cost after monetary conversion from Polish Zltoys to US$ is $4.90
>cents vs. $8.00 to send those same letters from the United States.
>Great you just saved almost 50%. However to send that $4.90
>reimbursement to Poland from Nova Roma's treasury it costs on average
>$15.00 or 3 times the amount being reimbursed! The cheapest form of
>international money order I could find is from the United States Post
>Office ($3.25), but there is a catch, there is absolutelty not a
>single country in Europe that accepts them!

Lex Cornelia have _no_ stated method to make any cheap reimbursements
of the Census-assistants outside North America, and tax credits are
_not_ allowed according in Lex Cornelia.

It is Lex Cornelia that is full of problems and that has no solution
to these problems. This is why I have re-written most of it. Lex
Cornelia is a badly written law.

>But we'll make it up in phone costs, right. Wrong for it costs ten
>cents a minute to call Poland from the US, 10 one minute phone calls
>is a $1.00

Once again You seem not to have read the laws.

In Lex Fabia it is OPTIONAL to make international calls to Provinciae
that have no Governors and "those areas not included in a Provincia
yet", there is also a provision to use Governors from neighbouring
countries.

In Lex Cornelia there is no provisions for solving the problem with
Provinciae without Governors and "those areas not included in a
Provincia yet".

All other phone calls should be done within the Provinciae or
Regiones (Legati) according to Lex Fabia.

You have got it all wrong! Your number doesn't apply to Lex Fabia,
but rather to Lex Cornelia!

>
>Here are the real numbers folks:
>
>PROVINCE %50 POP POSTAGE FROM USA in US$ POSTAGE IN
>COUNTRY in US$ CORNELIA COST FABIA COST in US$ Money
>Transfer Costs under FABIA NOTES
>Britannia 41 $0.80 $0.46 $32.80 $18.86 $15.00
> British Pound
>Gallia 35 $0.80 $0.58 $28.00 $20.30 $15.00 Euro
>Germania 34 $0.80 $0.65 $27.20 $22.10 $15.00
> Euro
>Hispania 61 $0.80 $0.31 $48.80 $18.91 $15.00
> Euro
>Italia 82 $0.80 $0.73 $65.60 $59.86 $15.00 Euro
>Pannonia 14 $0.80 $0.28 $11.20 $3.92 $15.00
> Slovakian Koruny
>Samatia 3 $0.80 $2.40 $2.40 No
>Gov.
>Thule 19 $0.80 $0.64 $15.20 $12.16 $15.00 SE
>Krona
>Vendia 10 $0.80 $0.49 $8.00 $4.90 $15.00 Zloty
> $239.20 $163.41 $120.00
>
>The Lex Cornelia assuming everything based out of the USA would cost
>$239.00 in postage to reach %50 of the citizens in Europe. It would
>cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the provinces, but cost
>$120.00 in international money transfer fees to reimburse the
>governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
>than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone.

Wrong again! Stop spreading these false statements!

>I got my world wide postage rates from
>http://www.atms.ch/rates/index.php
>
>I used http://www.xe.com/ucc/ for the currency conversion
>
>I'm posting my spreadsheet to the ML's files so people can take a
>better look at the numbers for Europe alone. If this is saving Nova
>Roma money, I don't think Nova Roma can afford much more "savings."

You have misunderstood the whole business, so I hope You will correct
your statements and numbers!

>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

Salve Honorable Consul,

Pardon my snippage.

> As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
> transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
>


> Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have

misread

> the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
> am sure that You don't want to lie.

Thank you. I did re-read, and re-read, and re-read again at your
suggestion the tax credit section. I thought the clause "It shall be
up to the Senate to choose which of these two methods to
follow to compensate the Censors, according to criteria of saving."
Meant >>>only<<<< the Censors and their direct staff were eligible to
receive the tax credit for their expenses. This is because the very
next statement is: "XII. A budget shall be allocated by the Senate to
meet expenses to compensate magistrates involved in the Census."
Which I took to mean that the provincial governors that incurred
expenses in the process of the Census were to be compensated in kind
not tax credit since section XII doesn't include tax credits in the
wording. Of course the Senate has to approve the tax credits as your
law states, but I don't think anyone in the Senate would be foolish
enough to rather pay an extra $120 or so in international fund
transfer fees rather than extend the tax credits!

I would have worded it a little different, but now that you have
finally got it knocked into my thick head that all the magistrates
involved are eligible for the tax credit I can clearly see where Nova
Roma saves money in the long run.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> You are right about the advantages of Lex Fabia, but You show

clearly

> that You haven't understood Lex Fabia de Censo when it, for

example,

> comes to reimbursements.

Salve Honorable Consul,

Please read my reply about this in my posting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10788


Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!

>Salve Honorable Consul,
>
>Pardon my snippage.
>
>> As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
>> transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
>>
>
>
>> Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have
>misread
>> the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
>> am sure that You don't want to lie.
>
>Thank you. I did re-read, and re-read, and re-read again at your
>suggestion the tax credit section. I thought the clause "It shall be
>up to the Senate to choose which of these two methods to
>follow to compensate the Censors, according to criteria of saving."
>Meant >>>only<<<< the Censors and their direct staff were eligible to
>receive the tax credit for their expenses. This is because the very
>next statement is: "XII. A budget shall be allocated by the Senate to
>meet expenses to compensate magistrates involved in the Census."
>Which I took to mean that the provincial governors that incurred
>expenses in the process of the Census were to be compensated in kind
>not tax credit since section XII doesn't include tax credits in the
>wording. Of course the Senate has to approve the tax credits as your
>law states, but I don't think anyone in the Senate would be foolish
>enough to rather pay an extra $120 or so in international fund
>transfer fees rather than extend the tax credits!
>
>I would have worded it a little different, but now that you have
>finally got it knocked into my thick head that all the magistrates
>involved are eligible for the tax credit I can clearly see where Nova
>Roma saves money in the long run.

I like your attitude! If this means that You admit that Lex Fabia is
cheaper than Lex Cornelia I am _very_ satisfied! I respect people
that can admit mistakes, we all make them. ;-) Could I hope for a
"retractment" of the Excel file from the File section of the ML?

When it comes to words and language, please do me and some of my
Accensi the favour to take in account, in the future,that some of us
don't have Engish as our native language.

>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!

I have read it and think that I like it. ;-)

Would I be totally out of order if I suggested to You that You should
give me the benefit of a doubt in the future?

>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
><christer.edling@t...> wrote:
>> You are right about the advantages of Lex Fabia, but You show
>clearly
>> that You haven't understood Lex Fabia de Censo when it, for
>example,
>> comes to reimbursements.
>
>Salve Honorable Consul,
>
>Please read my reply about this in my posting
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10788
>
>
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

#831

Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.

File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
Description : Amended Euro Census Cost Comparison

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>

Salve Consul

My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank for
Europe.

I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a number
of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of money in Europe.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR


> Salve Curator!
>
>
> >Salve Romans
> >
> >
> >.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents from
> >our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
> >solution to this."....
> >
> >
> >...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the
> >provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees to
> >reimburse the
> >governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
> >than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....
>
> How many times must I say that it is the other way around? According
> to Lex Cornelia the Censors must organise the Census and there is no
> provincial Census organisation. Of course theCensors could build a
> special Census organisation, but the compensation must be payed from
> the central Treasury that is located in USA. This mean that Lex
> Cornelia will be more expensive as it has to use international money
> orders!
>
> As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
> transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
>
> I find it astonishing that You try to tell me, a Propraetor, about
> the costs for international money orders. I have together with other
> Governors tried to adjust the tax rules to accomodate to these facts
> for many years.
>
> Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have misread
> the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
> am sure that You don't want to lie.
>
> >These two passages from posts on the census law brings up another
> >point I have been thinking about for some time.
> >
> >Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.
> >
> >
> >I think the Nova Roma needs......
> >
> >A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!
> >
> >I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)
> >
> >We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors or
> >at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each would
> >be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two
> >permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.
> >
> >May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought
>
> Interesting idea. I am not sure that your proposal is what we need,
> but I am sure You have pointed out an interesting problem. But, still
> Europe isn't the USE (United States of Europe), it may still be hard
> to transfer money from one country to another. So itis abit more
> complecated. Still it is worth looking into.
>
> >Vale
> >
> >Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Senior Consul et Senator
> Propraetor Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Cohors Consulis CFQ
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.

File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
Description : Amended Euro Census Cost Comp.

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>

salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus, Amice!

Thank You very much! Quirites, please check this file!

>Hello,
>
>This email message is a notification to let you know that
>a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
>group.
>
> File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
> Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
> Description : Amended Euro Census Cost Comparison
>
>You can access this file at the URL
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls
>
>To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
>Regards,
>
>quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salvete Quirites; et salve, T. Galeri.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Consul
>
> My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
> I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank
> for Europe.
>
> I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a
> number of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of
> money in Europe.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

I would say that you are right, T. Galeri. And the senior consul (who
lives in Europe) is right as well :-).

There are banks that have branches in different European nations. And
there are banks that own other banks in other European nations. But
the senior consul is right in saying that there are still some
differences between national legislations that can hinder the process
of fund transfer between different states.

In any case, I fully agree with you: we need a "national" bank
account on a European bank. But we would do well in looking for the
aid of someone familiar with the European currently complex banking
system to give us advice about the particulars (which bank and in
which state).

Do we have such an expert around?

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
> >I would have worded it a little different, but now that you have
> >finally got it knocked into my thick head that all the magistrates
> >involved are eligible for the tax credit I can clearly see where

Nova

> >Roma saves money in the long run.
>
> I like your attitude! If this means that You admit that Lex Fabia

is

> cheaper than Lex Cornelia I am _very_ satisfied! I respect people
> that can admit mistakes, we all make them. ;-) Could I hope for a
> "retractment" of the Excel file from the File section of the ML?
>
> When it comes to words and language, please do me and some of my
> Accensi the favour to take in account, in the future,that some of

us

> don't have Engish as our native language.

Salve Honorable Consul,

I have retracted the file and replaced it with the numbers that
reflect the tax credit offsets. In your case your English is quite
excellent and it is easy to forget that it is not your native
language. Besides, it is my native language and I haven't seemed to
do too well with it this time now did I? <G>

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

#839

Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix

Salve Curator!

>Salve Consul
>
>My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
>I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank for
>Europe.

"That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more than the
Lex Cornelia in Europe alone...."

As your mail contained the above statement without any quotation
marks, I think I could excused for believing that this was your
standpoint. I am glad if it wasn't, as it is publicly stated that
these assumptions were wrong!

>I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a number
>of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of money in Europe.

I must admit, as I have said before, that this issue must be looked
into,but my personal experiences have been discouraging.

When it comes to, for example Sweden and Finland, two Regiones within
Thule Provincia, it is not cheap to transfer money between banks in
these two countries. Lately one bank which has offices in most Nordic
(Thule) countries have made it a bit cheaper. But remember that the
"European Union" is no state and that all members counties are still
sovereign states.

>
>Vale
>
>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salvete Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur!

>Salvete Quirites; et salve, T. Galeri.
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
>wrote:
>> Salve Consul
>>
>> My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
>> I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank
>> for Europe.
>>
>> I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a
>> number of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of
>> money in Europe.
>>
>>
>> Vale
>>
>> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>I would say that you are right, T. Galeri. And the senior consul (who
>lives in Europe) is right as well :-).
>
>There are banks that have branches in different European nations. And
>there are banks that own other banks in other European nations. But
>the senior consul is right in saying that there are still some
>differences between national legislations that can hinder the process
>of fund transfer between different states.
>
>In any case, I fully agree with you: we need a "national" bank
>account on a European bank. But we would do well in looking for the
>aid of someone familiar with the European currently complex banking
>system to give us advice about the particulars (which bank and in
>which state).
>
>Do we have such an expert around?

I think that both Illustrus Sextus Apollonius Scipio, my Quaestor
(who has a leave of absence on personal grounds) and Illustrus Marcus
Marcius Rex, one of our Tribunes could be our men.

They both work in the banking business. I hope that they see this
exchange and respond (to ensure this I will cc them, but I think that
Scipio could be in hospital)

>CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!

Thank You for taking time to retract the file and replacing it with
"Amended Euro Census Cost Comp" As far as I am concerned I respect
people who corect mistakes more that those who never admit any faults.

Language is still a tool to communicate and as our communication seem
to be excellent, no harm is done! ;-)

>Salve Honorable Consul,
>
>I have retracted the file and replaced it with the numbers that
>reflect the tax credit offsets. In your case your English is quite
>excellent and it is easy to forget that it is not your native
>language. Besides, it is my native language and I haven't seemed to
>do too well with it this time now did I? <G>
>
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Honorable Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka!

I have cc this to the Consular Quaestores, Illustrus Sextus
Apollonius Scipio (he is a a leave of absence though) and Illustrus
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and my Vicaria Officina Aerarii Illustra
Patriciua Cassia.

>Salvete Omnes
>
>This is just a quick note to tell the world that I
>paid my taxes late (early May) and they seem to have
>been lost in the mail for I have not received a
>message of their receipt. I'll be checking with the
>post office to see if they can't track it down, but
>hopes are low. Let it not be said, then, that I am
>inactive - just shafted by the mail system.
>Valete!
>
>=====
>Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve

Now it would be nice to have a European Bank account, the costs to set
one up in NR names are not small, we ( NR) would need to file as a USA corp
doing Biz in the EC state that we want the bank acct in /or incorp in the EU
in the state we(NR) wants the acct in.
cost to file as a usa org doing biz in a European state/and or incorp in
same state are over $500
and some 100's a year etc.. ( other fee's)

also the paperwork needed for a corp bank acct is not the same as say a
personal acct. look into it before you say to me anything.

vale

Marcus Cornelius Felix

_________________________________________________________________
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Salvete Quirites et Salve Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius, Amice!

>Salvete cives,
>
>Having read the discussions back and forth and especially G. Iulius
>Scarus' most useful point by point comparison and Q. Cassius Calvus'
>cost comparison, I have decided to vote against this law and
>encourage all Nova Romans to do the same.

Have You observed that Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus have publicly
admitted that he was wrong? Are You still going to vote aginst Lex
Fabia de Censo?

>As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be about
>the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the matter of
>reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law.

As You may have seen that this is plainly wrong.

>The extant law
>doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the new proposal
>specifies an unfair solution. Those involved with the census would be
>paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax credit for the
>following year. Which one the censors and not the person assisting in
>carrying out the census would decide. This should be the choice of
>the individual performing the tasks, not the censors. Frankly, I
>think the only option should be direct reimbursement and not a
>delayed tax credit. "Sure, we'll repay your expenses--eventually."
>That attitude doesn't speak well for us though I admit it is a minor
>issue.

The tax credit system is still cheaper and I am sure that that our
loyal and enthusiastic officials are prepared to wait one year for
enbursement if it keep costs down. Remember that the tax credit
system is mainly constructed to make the reimbursement in Europe,
South America, Afrika, Asia and Australia cheaper.

>Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the workload this would
>create for the governors and their staffs and I encourage you to
>reread his comments.

As Astur said most Governors and legati have so little to do that
they may well be happy to make this contribution. ;-)

>The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
>this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR.

Well I think that the Socii group will be a strong source of
recruitment for Nova Roma. Should we relinquish the Socii as a
re-cruitment source, just because we are embarrassed because we
incompetent in keeping our citizens.

>However, the more
>I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our main
>problem: inactive citizens.

So You think that it will be to our advantage if we hide this fact
and "lie" about it?

>It essentially will say: "Of 1700 people
>who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not bother to
>reply to our census, vote or pay taxes."

Remember that we have seen quite a few "old" citizens return to Nova
Roma. AS far as I understand all of them have had honorable reasons
to be gone for a short time. This kind of "Socii" would possibly feel
stronger loyalty to a micro-nation which still kept their name in
high regard rather than one which just would erase their good name,
because it is ashamed of the fact that it can keep its citizens. Why
not try to be better in keeping our citizens and in recruiting the
Socii back as citizens. If we did this. Nova Roma would grow much
faster!

>(based on the estimated high
>number of 400 active citizens which is probably closer to 300-350) It
>will advertise our main weakness,

It could also encourage our Governors to take care of our present
citizens and to try to activate the Socii and Capiti Censi.

>thus will not be a good recruiting
>tool. Either these people should be removed from the rolls of
>citizens as the current census law calls for or they should remain in
>the head count.

You are making a mistake. do You want to abandon these persons?

>For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this law.
>I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
>was ignored last year.

It was ignored because it was a badly written and thought through law!

>Why would this one not be ignored also?

As I have got a clear indication that the Censors prefer this law.

>They
>will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?

As the facts that You based your stand point on were wrong I assume
that You will change your mind now.

>A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it) there
>is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and pass
>different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before allowing
>the original programs to work so the flaws in the system can be
>discovered. Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or
>perhaps it is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there
>often is a desire to turn the system upside down every year.

Well it is hard to avoid when the present laws are too expensive or
badly written.

> There is
>much uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
>revisit old ground.

Rest assured hat I will break new ground too! ;-) And You are invited
to be with me as You are one of my Accensi maior and will continue to
see my proposals before the Populus. ;-)

>Let's allow the original census law to be carried
>out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.

That would be financially irresponsible.

>Valete,
>
>Decius Iunius Palladius, Senator
>(Praetor)
>
>[-note, just for the record, this post is a personal opinion, not an

official praetorian position]

I, on the contrary, post this as an official Consular position,
anything else would be very strange and wrong. ;-)
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salvete Cives,

Consul Caeso Fabius has adequately covered the financial reasoning for
this change - by allowing provincial administration to make phone
calls or send letters instead of paying taxes for themselves, there
will be few required international bank transfers in either direction.

Yet that was not the primary cause for this proposal. With the lex
already in place, the entire burden of conducting the Census is placed
upon the Censores - and we simply can't do it. Hundreds of phone
calls would have to be made, many of them international, many of them
to persons who may have little ability to converse in English or German.

With the current system, the only way we could reasonably perform
the Census would be to assemble a vast army of scribae, at least
one per country (more in larger countries), who would serve only
long enough to make the phone calls (and would never be compensated
for such). Choosing and managing these temporary scribae would
still be a massive undertaking, only slightly less formidable
than doing it with our regular staff.

The inent of the Lex Fabia de Censo is to use the provincial
infrastructure already in place to do this work. In doing so, the
provinces will be strengthened - something that the current system
does not provide. The inactive citizen, upon receiving a phone
call from his propraetor or legate, might be surprised to discover
that there are active citizens nearby, and might seek to learn more
about provincial or regional events.

The Census is a good idea, and it is something we do wish to perform
this year - but as it currently stands, it is an unmanageable task.
With the Lex Fabia de Censo, it will become possible, and it will
be done, and it will strengthen our provinces and promote local
communication.

Valete, Octavius.


--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://cynico.net/~hucke/

Ave Consul et Senator Caeso Fabius!

Thank you for your assistance in this matter!
Hopefully it'll come through, if not, oh well...maybe
next year!

Vale!


=====
Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites et Salve Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius, Amice!

Salve Consul Caeso Fabi Quintiliane, Amice! SVBEEV

> Have You observed that Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus have publicly
> admitted that he was wrong? Are You still going to vote aginst Lex
> Fabia de Censo?

Yes to both questions. I have indeed read Calvus' retraction and
acknowledge that the Lex Fabia will probably cost less, though in
reality we are not talking a great savings but it does appears to be
cheaper.

> >As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be

about

> >the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the matter

of

> >reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law.
>
> As You may have seen that this is plainly wrong.

No, it is not wrong. I understand your rationale for the tax credit
and understood it when I previously posted, I just disagree with your
rationale.

> >The extant law
> >doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the new proposal
> >specifies an unfair solution. Those involved with the census would

be

> >paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax credit for the
> >following year. Which one the censors and not the person assisting

in

> >carrying out the census would decide. This should be the choice of
> >the individual performing the tasks, not the censors. Frankly, I
> >think the only option should be direct reimbursement and not a
> >delayed tax credit. "Sure, we'll repay your expenses--eventually."
> >That attitude doesn't speak well for us though I admit it is a

minor

> >issue.
>
> The tax credit system is still cheaper and I am sure that that our
> loyal and enthusiastic officials are prepared to wait one year for
> enbursement if it keep costs down.

Ahh, the subtle appeal to patriotism to forgo compensation. Not a
pretty sight. So if one thinks we should promptly compensate those
who work on our behalf he is not patriotic?

I have a question about the tax credit reimbursement. It appears from
the reading of the law and from your comments that this credit is
only for the following tax year (yet another vaguely phrased section
of the law so it is uncklear if this is the case or not). Quite
possibly, even likely in some cases, those conducting the census will
spend more than the amount of one year's tax performing this task.
So, if the tax for one's country is $7 US and one spends $14 US, even
with the tax credit he would still be owed $7. Would he then be
reimbursed or would the tax credit be for more than one year? If he
is to be reimbursed for the remainder then there would be no savings
in this instance, thus reducing the savings which is so key to this
law.

This would apply only to those who spent more than a year's taxes of
course, those who spent less would be covered by the tax credit.

Oh, and would the tax credit pay interest back to the worker or would
those few cents be a further gift to Nova Roma? ;-) <humor alert,
said somewhat tongue in cheek, though I wouldn't mind an answer>

> >Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the workload this
>would
> >create for the governors and their staffs and I encourage you to
> >reread his comments.
>
> As Astur said most Governors and legati have so little to do that
> they may well be happy to make this contribution. ;-)

Provided they are promptly reimbursed, you may be right. ;-)

> >The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
> >this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR.
>
> Well I think that the Socii group will be a strong source of
> recruitment for Nova Roma. Should we relinquish the Socii as a
> re-cruitment source, just because we are embarrassed because we
> incompetent in keeping our citizens.
>
> >However, the more
> >I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our main
> >problem: inactive citizens.
>
> So You think that it will be to our advantage if we hide this fact
> and "lie" about it?

Lie? Who said lie? Leaving people in the head count is not lying but
it also is not pointing a neon sign to those who don't bother to
commit anything to Nova Roma.

The current law drops them completely and that is probably the best
thing to do.

I ask you, do you envision people remaining socii indefinitely?
Possibly a time limit should be placed on that status, like two years.

> >It essentially will say: "Of 1700 people
> >who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not bother to
> >reply to our census, vote or pay taxes."
>
> Remember that we have seen quite a few "old" citizens return to

Nova

> Roma. AS far as I understand all of them have had honorable reasons
> to be gone for a short time. This kind of "Socii" would possibly
>feel stronger loyalty to a micro-nation which still kept their name
>in high regard rather than one which just would erase their good
>name, because it is ashamed of the fact that it can keep its
>citizens. Why not try to be better in keeping our citizens and in
>recruiting the Socii back as citizens. If we did this. Nova Roma
>would grow much faster!

Fine, then put a time limit on this status. Otherwise, a non-active
citizen will tie up a particular name indefinitely and our number of
socii will grow to huge numbers making us look ridiculous.

> >thus will not be a good recruiting
> >tool. Either these people should be removed from the rolls of
> >citizens as the current census law calls for or they should remain

in

> >the head count.
>
> You are making a mistake. do You want to abandon these persons?

They have abandoned us. I understand your reasons behind the socii
and they are noble ones but we should not accomodate inactive
citizens for any great length of time.

>For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this law.
> >I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
> >was ignored last year.
>
> It was ignored because it was a badly written and thought through
>law!

In your opinion. However, that is irrelevant not to mention specious.
Should magistrates pick and choose what laws they wish to obey? If
you say yes, then why should we obey any of our laws, including the
one you want to pass? The rule of law doesn't mean "only those laws I
feel like obeying." Or does it? I hope that phrase isn't constantly
repeated back to us in the coming years for various laws. "I think it
was a badly written and thought through law and thus ignored it!"

If the law was so badly written, why did you borrow from it so
heavily? Many parts of your law are taken verbatim from the old law,
in essence making it a large amendment to the law and not completely
new piece of legislation. It is some of the the changes you made with
the law that I find the problems with.

> >Why would this one not be ignored also?
>
> As I have got a clear indication that the Censors prefer this law.

Again, that is irrelevant. What they "prefer" does not matter in the
slightest, they had (have?) an obligation to carry out the law to the
best of their ability. Did they at least try to obey the law?

> >They
> >will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?
>
> As the facts that You based your stand point on were wrong I assume
> that You will change your mind now.

On the financial issue, yes, I have changed my mind. Not on the socii
issue.

I ask you, if this law passes, to consider an amendment to the law
putting a time limit on how long one can remain a socius. There must
be a limit on this status.

Also, I would suggest an amendment, if it passes, specifying how long
a tax credit can be extended. Right now it is unclear for how long a
credit is good for.

> > There is
> >much uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
> >revisit old ground.
>
> Rest assured hat I will break new ground too! ;-) And You are
>invited to be with me as You are one of my Accensi maior and will
>continue to see my proposals before the Populus. ;-)

I look forward to it and will continue to voice my opinions there and
here. ;-)

> >Let's allow the original census law to be carried
> >out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.
>
> That would be financially irresponsible.

Not to mention in compliance with the law, but that doesn't matter
as "I think it was a badly written and thought through law and thus
ignored it."

> >Decius Iunius Palladius, Senator
> >(Praetor)
> >
> >[-note, just for the record, this post is a personal opinion, not

an

> official praetorian position]
>
> I, on the contrary, post this as an official Consular position,
> anything else would be very strange and wrong. ;-)

Naturally, it is your law, but since this is outside the purview of
the office of praetor I thought such a proviso on my part prudent.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius, Senator
(Praetor)

[-note, just for the record again, this post is a personal opinion,
not an official praetorian position and is rated G, suitable for all
audiences ;-)]

The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:

#855

Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org

Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix

Salvete Praetor Palladi et alii


:
:The current law drops them completely and that is probably the best
:thing to do.

I disagree with most of your points against the new law, but mostly with
this one. How is it better to expel inactive people than to change their
status?
:
:I ask you, do you envision people remaining socii indefinitely?
:Possibly a time limit should be placed on that status, like two years.

Fine points like this, in my view, make rules unnecessarily lengthy. The
further an author goes into this kind of contingent detail, the more likely
to create an internal contradiction or conflict with another rule.
:

:
:If the law was so badly written, why did you borrow from it so
:heavily? Many parts of your law are taken verbatim from the old law,
:in essence making it a large amendment to the law and not completely
:new piece of legislation. It is some of the the changes you made with
:the law that I find the problems with.

I am thankful to the Consul for putting this before us. Without alteration,
the old census law forces NR either to leave the law in place and pretend
that it is not there, or expend some money and a lot of effort to expel the
majority of our membership.

I say that the new law is an improvement, let's vote for it.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Marius Merullus"
<c_marius_m@n...> wrote:

> Salvete Praetor Palladi et alii

Salve C. Mari! Glad to see you still around.

> :The current law drops them completely and that is probably the best
> :thing to do.
>
> I disagree with most of your points against the new law, but mostly
>with this one. How is it better to expel inactive people than to
>change their status?

Most of my points? My opposition to socii status IS my point since
most of the rest of the new law is minor revisions of the older one
(outside of making the governors central to the census).

I turn it around and ask you, why is it better to change the status
of inactive people who have contributed nothing for years than to
just kick them out outright? It isn't better, it's dodging what must
be done. It was talked about for years in NR, finally enacted into
law in NR and now someone comes along to change that again before it
is enacted.

> :I ask you, do you envision people remaining socii indefinitely?
> :Possibly a time limit should be placed on that status, like two

years.

>
> Fine points like this, in my view, make rules unnecessarily
>lengthy. The further an author goes into this kind of contingent
>detail, the more likely to create an internal contradiction or
>conflict with another rule.

We are not talking about loose general rules meant to be twisted and
bent, we are speaking of creating laws. Laws can be necessarily
lengthy, like the LEX SALICIA IVDICIARIA. Fine points are what make
a law, as they regulate specific situations. Vague wording, lack of
detail make for bad, vague laws, which are more likely to run
contrary to other laws because one cannot be sure what they mean. I'm
guilty of it myself, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I am saying that
I have learned that specificity is needed in a law.

So, in that vein I suggest that putting a time limit on socius status
is perfectly reasonable, we should not want it to last forever.

> :If the law was so badly written, why did you borrow from it so
> :heavily? Many parts of your law are taken verbatim from the old

law,

> :in essence making it a large amendment to the law and not

completely

> :new piece of legislation. It is some of the the changes you made

with

> :the law that I find the problems with.

> Without alteration, the old census law forces NR either to leave
>the law in place and pretend that it is not there, or expend some
>money and a lot of effort to expel the majority of our membership.

I don't see a problem there. The people voted that we do just that.

Decius Iunius Palladius,
etc.

Salve,

On Mon, May 26, 2003 at 03:00:17AM -0000, deciusiunius wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> <christer.edling@t...> wrote:
>
> > >As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be
> about
> > >the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the matter
> of
> > >reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law.
> >
> > As You may have seen that this is plainly wrong.
>
> No, it is not wrong. I understand your rationale for the tax credit
> and understood it when I previously posted, I just disagree with your
> rationale.

Did you have a countering rationale to present? Just saying "it's not
wrong" without any explanation gets you nowhere, benefits few, and
convinces none. Explaining why you think otherwise may be beneficial,
perhaps as motivation for later improvement - and perhaps, in the
process of thinking it through in order to explain, you may find that
you are indeed wrong, no matter how much you'd prefer not to be.

> > The tax credit system is still cheaper and I am sure that that our
> > loyal and enthusiastic officials are prepared to wait one year for
> > enbursement if it keep costs down.
>
> Ahh, the subtle appeal to patriotism to forgo compensation. Not a
> pretty sight. So if one thinks we should promptly compensate those
> who work on our behalf he is not patriotic?

I find this distortion of what was plainly stated rather interesting.
Did you see anything in the law - or in the Consul's words, above - that
would ask people to forfeit or surrender their right to reimbursement?
That is what "forgo" means.

Yes, this does require that the magistrates effectively make an
interest-free loan to Nova Roma. That averages out to (let's pick an
arbitrarily high number) what, ten bucks each for a year? Simple
interest at even ten percent would be a dollar. Go ahead - let me hear
from the people who grudge eight cents a month over the period of a year
to participate in Nova Roma. If you're right, I'll be buried under a
pile of email Real Soon Now.

> Oh, and would the tax credit pay interest back to the worker or would
> those few cents be a further gift to Nova Roma? ;-) <humor alert,
> said somewhat tongue in cheek, though I wouldn't mind an answer>

I'm afraid it's not particularly humorous, given the rest of this post.
In many ways, Nova Roma is a gift culture; we give our time, our effort,
and our money to keep it going. As long as you're talking about
reimbursing every single penny (you've forgotten about the opportunity
cost of that money, too - if you didn't spend that dollar on Nova Roma,
you could have invested it...), why not count up the hours spent by each
magistrate, look up the average pay scale for the locale, and reimburse
them for those hours? In fact, shouldn't we do that for all our
magistrates as soon as they're elected? Sure, we'll make them keep
timesheets, and maybe require them to buy a timeclock, set up tracking
cameras to make sure they're actually working during the billed
period...

This kind of nitpicking gets silly very quickly.

> > So You think that it will be to our advantage if we hide this fact
> > and "lie" about it?
>
> Lie? Who said lie? Leaving people in the head count is not lying but
> it also is not pointing a neon sign to those who don't bother to
> commit anything to Nova Roma.

Well, I didn't use the term, but I will now: once we have accurate
numbers that tell us how many citizens we actually have, presenting a
different figure would _be_ lying. It's not a question of a neon sign -
it's a question of integrity. I do not think that it sorts well with
Nova Roma's stated ideals to sweep embarassing little tidbits under the
carpet.

> The current law drops them completely and that is probably the best
> thing to do.
>
> I ask you, do you envision people remaining socii indefinitely?
> Possibly a time limit should be placed on that status, like two years.

That question, if it needs to be raised at all, can be discussed once we
have determined the number of Socii. It certainly has no bearing on the
census.

> Fine, then put a time limit on this status. Otherwise, a non-active
> citizen will tie up a particular name indefinitely

Is this a real problem? Do we have people wailing and rending their
clothes because The One Name that they want is taken? If you have
information to this effect, please make it available; I'm sure that
steps will be taken if that is a real issue.

> > It was ignored because it was a badly written and thought through
> >law!
>
> In your opinion. However, that is irrelevant not to mention specious.
> Should magistrates pick and choose what laws they wish to obey?

I don't wish to be harsh, but - you need to reconcile yourself to the
fact that they have. A quote that appears in my quote file says

Impossibilium nulla obligatio est.
Nobody has any obligation to do the impossible.
-- Corpus Iuris Civilis: Digesta

It was clearly impossible, or at the very least tremendously unfair, to
ask a small number of people to bear the entire cost - and they failed,
if that's the term you want to use, to do so. Do you wish to continue
this useless practice, trying to enforce (with no means of enforcement)
a law that will not be obeyed? Lex Fabia de Censo makes the costs small
and easily bearable by both distributing them among a higher number and
decreasing them overall. Why are you arguing against something that
provides a sensible alternative to a law that has been *proven* to be
unworkable?

> If the law was so badly written, why did you borrow from it so
> heavily?

There's an old Russian saying about a spoonful of tar (in the polite
version, anyway) spoiling a barrelful of honey. Keeping 99.9% of the
original mix by eliminating the tar is the most intelligent solution -
and yet does not change things much, percentage-wise.

> > As I have got a clear indication that the Censors prefer this law.
>
> Again, that is irrelevant. What they "prefer" does not matter in the
> slightest, they had (have?) an obligation to carry out the law to the
> best of their ability. Did they at least try to obey the law?

Speaking of irrelevant... I suggest looking at reality and adjusting to
it. The old law was not obeyed because it imposed too large of a burden
on individuals. If you would like to bear, say, one-fifth of the cost of
the entire census just to show people how it should be done, I would
imagine that you would find some people to follow you. Would you care to
try that? Or do you think the new law would work better?

> I ask you, if this law passes, to consider an amendment to the law
> putting a time limit on how long one can remain a socius. There must
> be a limit on this status.

Must there?... well, that's a discussion for another time - if indeed it
arises once this law has passed. I suspect that it will lose all its
importance at that point, since I see it as nothing more than yet
another tactic to show that this beneficial improvement should not come
to be.

> > That would be financially irresponsible.
>
> Not to mention in compliance with the law, but that doesn't matter
> as "I think it was a badly written and thought through law and thus
> ignored it."

The law was not obeyed at the time; it is impossible for it to be obeyed
at this very moment. Meanwhile, we're changing it so that it does not
continue to spread its harmful effect of (among other things) breeding
disrespect for Nova Roman law in general. If you're trying to somehow
blame the fact that the original, badly-written law was disobeyed on
the current magistrates, then you're completely off-target.

> [-note, just for the record again, this post is a personal opinion,
> not an official praetorian position and is rated G, suitable for all
> audiences ;-)]

I suppose the extra-cautious Moms and Dads can always set their email
filters to "stun"...


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Primum est non nocere.
First of all, do no harm.
-- Hippocrates; The maxim has become an ethical guiding principle in medicine.

> >Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the

workload this would

> >create for the governors and their staffs and I

encourage you to

> >reread his comments.
>
> As Astur said most Governors and legati have so

little to do that

> they may well be happy to make this contribution.

;-)


I for one will be *very* happy to make this
contribution. It is exactly what I have been wanting
to do for the benefit of this region and Nova Roma.

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia


=====

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
Legata, Oregonia Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.novaroma.org
Accensa Ordinaria Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
Citizen of Nova Roma
http://www.gensmoravia.org




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Ancient Medicine/Medicina Antiqua":

http://www.ea.pvt.k12.pa.us/medant/

"Ancient Medicine/Medicina Antiqua" is maintained by Dr. Lee T. Pearcy
(The Episcopal Academy) in collaboration with Dr. Ann Ellis Hanson
(Yale Univ.), Dr. James O'Donnell (Univ. of Pennsylvania), and Dr.
Heinrich Von Staden (Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton Univ.).
The site includes e-texts of Graeco-Roman medical texts, scholarly
essays, bibliographies, links, and contact information for the Society
for Ancient Medicine.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salve D Iunius Palladius,

< Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or
< perhaps it is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there
< often is a desire to turn the system upside down every year.

That is a very interesting comment. Maybe this is something that can be
discussed in the future after more pressing issues like the Census law, and
electoral reform. Besides your point above, it takes every elected official
a while to learn their position. By the time we know the ins and outs of it,
a new 'newbie' takes our places. Practically speaking, I think NR would be
more efficient if certain elected positions had a longer term.

Positions such as the Curator Differum (Eagle editor) can be changed to have
a longer term without disrupting the present system at all. For example:
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus is working like a slave to get the Eagle off the
ground again. By the time he has a good working system in place, he'll have
to hand it over to a new person. Besides that, new subscribers are
subscribing to *his* version of the Eagle and a replacement after only one
year most likely would produce a different product. Anyway, my aplogies T
Galerius Paulinus for speaking about him in the third person.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Tiberius,

< A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!

This is a great idea, but it won't save too much as far as money transfer
costs regarding the census. Between European countries it still costs about
7 dollars to transfer money between them or to cash a check. BUT sticking a
few euros in an envelope and mailing them in cash would probably be safe
enough, but it is illegal :-p
Vale
Diana Moravia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve
I Caius Iulius Barcinus Ciconius, Im obligate in order to my personal situation and close to my translate out of the country , because i cant not be in charge for the place i was selected in, cives de Hispania and called by the Senado de Novaroma, to present inmediately my total resignation as a Propaetor of the Hispania Province In order to my move to from hispania providence to Mexico city I aks adscription to this one .



Caius Iulius Barcinus Ciconius






Caius Iulius Barcinus Ciconius.
Col. Faventina Iulia Augusta Paterna Barcino. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iulii/files/furrina.html



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger
Nueva versión: Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más #161;Gratis!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AVETE OMNES

> Remember that we have seen quite a few "old" citizens return to

Nova

> Roma. AS far as I understand all of them have had honorable reasons
> to be gone for a short time. This kind of "Socii" would possibly

feel

> stronger loyalty to a micro-nation which still kept their name in
> high regard rather than one which just would erase their good name,
> because it is ashamed of the fact that it can keep its citizens.

Just to make an example, after Semptember 11th I had to leave Nova
Roma for several month as I had to go with my army to Afghanistan and
Israel. Had the Census been held, say, during that period, with the
Lex Cornelia I would have to reapply for citizenship when I came
back. With the Lex Fabia I would have become a socius and would
simply have to ask the censores to get back my previous stuatus. Just
an example, of course, but you see it makes difference! ;-)

BENE VALETE
M'Con.Serapio

AVE OPTIME Q CASSI CALVE

> > You are making a mistake. do You want to abandon these persons?
>
> They have abandoned us. I understand your reasons behind the socii
> and they are noble ones but we should not accomodate inactive
> citizens for any great length of time.

That's not right: we have citizens in Provincia Italia which joined
in 1998 and which are coming back after 5 years of inactivity, as
they didn't know english and now they see that our Provincial
activity is growing.
If they were expelled last year by the Lex Cornelia they would never
come back this year.

BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio

Salvete,

for example, I'm citizen from 1999 and I was interested to NR for 2
years. I came back in June 2001 knowing there were other active
citizens.
The egressus' experience in provincia Italia explained by Serapio is
a clear example how Lex Fabia is important for Nova Roma.

P.S.: As Propraetor I'm proud and glad to give my contribution!

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

> AVE OPTIME Q CASSI CALVE
>
> > > You are making a mistake. do You want to abandon these persons?
> >
> > They have abandoned us. I understand your reasons behind the

socii

> > and they are noble ones but we should not accomodate inactive
> > citizens for any great length of time.
>
> That's not right: we have citizens in Provincia Italia which

joined

> in 1998 and which are coming back after 5 years of inactivity, as
> they didn't know english and now they see that our Provincial
> activity is growing.
> If they were expelled last year by the Lex Cornelia they would

never

> come back this year.
>
> BENE VALE
> M'Con.Serapio

Salvete Diana et Omnes,

> This year is turning out to be pretty exciting.
> Ok the endless run-offs were dull, but now we
> will have a 5th Tribune appointed in a way
> normally not done (=lively discussions), a census
> (=more lively discussions) and electoral reform
> (=even more lively discussions). Plus we citizens
> have an opportunity to meet at Roman Days and
> again at the 2nd NR Rally in Bologna. It's
> turning out to be a very good year!

Thank you Diana, to have remembered the event in Bologna, I hope to
meet you too.

I remember you all the subscriptions to the Nova Roma Rally in
bologna from 1st to 3th August is now open. Please, visit
http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus/meeting or contact me at fraelov
@ yahoo.it for further informations.
In Bologna we could continue to talk about the Census Law and the
several discussions talked in this year eating roman meats and
drinking good mulsum.
I invite all the Nova Romans to enjoy the meeting!

Valete
Fr Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile

Salve,

Alas, coming together with the excellent post of Tiberius Galerius, I
say more, a third bank account on South America is needed for Brazil
and Argentina. Having the banks on that three poles would fit NR
necessities pretty well, and help the continuous boom of NR on Europe
and South America from these last years.

(And sure looking foward for the fourth on East Asia, maybe Singapore
or Japan, a place with more citizens. NR is too international now, we
must look foward to spread the Res Publica ´real world legal res´ to
many countries as well.)

L. Arminius Faustus
Quaestor

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Consul
>
> My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
> I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank

for

> Europe.
>
> I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a

number

> of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of money

in Europe.

>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@t...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR
>
>
> > Salve Curator!
> >
> >
> > >Salve Romans
> > >
> > >
> > >.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents

from

> > >our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
> > >solution to this."....
> > >
> > >
> > >...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the
> > >provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees

to

> > >reimburse the
> > >governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21

more

> > >than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....
> >
> > How many times must I say that it is the other way around?

According

> > to Lex Cornelia the Censors must organise the Census and there is

no

> > provincial Census organisation. Of course theCensors could build a
> > special Census organisation, but the compensation must be payed

from

> > the central Treasury that is located in USA. This mean that Lex
> > Cornelia will be more expensive as it has to use international

money

> > orders!
> >
> > As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
> > transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
> >
> > I find it astonishing that You try to tell me, a Propraetor, about
> > the costs for international money orders. I have together with

other

> > Governors tried to adjust the tax rules to accomodate to these

facts

> > for many years.
> >
> > Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have

misread

> > the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and

I

> > am sure that You don't want to lie.
> >
> > >These two passages from posts on the census law brings up

another

> > >point I have been thinking about for some time.
> > >
> > >Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.
> > >
> > >
> > >I think the Nova Roma needs......
> > >
> > >A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!
> > >
> > >I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)
> > >
> > >We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors

or

> > >at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each

would

> > >be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two
> > >permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.
> > >
> > >May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought
> >
> > Interesting idea. I am not sure that your proposal is what we

need,

> > but I am sure You have pointed out an interesting problem. But,

still

> > Europe isn't the USE (United States of Europe), it may still be

hard

> > to transfer money from one country to another. So itis abit more
> > complecated. Still it is worth looking into.
> >
> > >Vale
> > >
> > >Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> > Senior Consul et Senator
> > Propraetor Thules
> > Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> > Civis Romanus sum
> > ************************************************
> > Cohors Consulis CFQ
> > http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
> > ************************************************
> > Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> > "I'll either find a way or make one"
> > ************************************************
> > Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> > Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

> AVE OPTIME Q CASSI CALVE
>
> > > You are making a mistake. do You want to abandon these persons?
> >
> > They have abandoned us. I understand your reasons behind the

socii

> > and they are noble ones but we should not accomodate inactive
> > citizens for any great length of time.
>
> That's not right: we have citizens in Provincia Italia which joined
> in 1998 and which are coming back after 5 years of inactivity, as
> they didn't know english and now they see that our Provincial
> activity is growing.
> If they were expelled last year by the Lex Cornelia they would

never

> come back this year.
>
> BENE VALE
> M'Con.Serapio

Salve Manius Constantinus Serapio,

Just for the record, I wrote neither statement.

"You are making a mistake. do You want to abandon these persons?" --
Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus in response to Senator Decius Iunius
Palladius in msg # 10805 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-
Roma/message/10805

"They have abandoned us. I understand your reasons behind the socii
and they are noble ones but we should not accomodate inactive
citizens for any great length of time." -- Senator Decius Iunius
Palladius in reply to Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus in Msg #
#10808 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10808

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

<SNIP>

> :The current law drops them completely and that is probably the best
> :thing to do.
>
> I disagree with most of your points against the new law, but mostly with
> this one. How is it better to expel inactive people than to change their
> status?

Ave,
Thank you for making my point for me here. As an "inactive" citizen I was
very distressed to see that in my absence I may have lost my right to
citizenship. I was forced to go inactive due to financial cnstraints that
prevented me from having the internet, and time constraints that prevented
me from participating in the list from another source, like the library.
Dispite my lack of activity Nova Roma is something that is important to me.
I'm very proud to be a citizen. When my financial situation settles in more,
I'll be able to send in my taxes.
But now I have a question: when the taxes were implemented before i went
inactive, I recall it was voluntary. But if one did not pay taxes, one could
not vote. Is that still how it is?

Salve,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

Paula Drennan wrote:

> Zhen the taxes were implemented before i
> went inactive, I recall it was voluntary.
> But if one did not pay taxes, one could
> not vote. Is that still how it is?

Salve, Claudia Fabia Calpurnia.

I believe that's almost the case, only you ARE allowed to vote. Your
vote just doesn't carry a great deal of weight, as you're a member of a
very numerous tribe/century. One more qualifier, though, you're not
allowed to stand for public office. Appointed positions should, on the
other hand, be alright.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Salvete Quirites,

Over 30 years ago I was a member of the Boy Scouts,
but I dropped out without submitting a formal
resignation. I have my doubts that the Boy Scouts
still list me as a member, and this would hold true
for allmost any other organization.

The Vast Majority of the "Inactive" citizens are
people who thought so little of Nova Roma that they
didn't bother sending us a letter of resignation when
they left. The Only thing we accomplish by retaining
them on our roles, either as Citizens, as Head Count,
as Socii, or any other label, is deluding ourselves
about the number of people intrested in retaining
membership in this organization.

I Like the idead of having an associate membership,
the Sccii, but the Census lex dosen't set this group
up properly. All it does is duplicate the Capti Censi
under yet another label. Setting up the Socii
correctly would require a constionual admendment
setting up a class of members who wouldn't be liable
for taxes, nor who would be allowed to vote. I would
go as far as requiring new members to spend a minium
ammount of time as Socii, say 3 months, before they
could apply for citizenship. This should cut down on
the number of people who apply for citizenship on a
whim, and who soon vanish. Socii should also be
required to answer to a Census to retain thier limited
membership.

I Can not, and will not vote for any lex that
continues the self deception about our membership. The
present Lex eliminates this self deception and should
be retained.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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Salvete,

> > The tax credit system is still cheaper and I am sure that that our
> > loyal and enthusiastic officials are prepared to wait one year for
> > enbursement if it keep costs down.

As an incumbent governor, I do not begrudge Nova Roma either my time or my
money. Infact I have always contributed both, and willingly so. If this lex
passes, I will assist with the conducting the census and I will probably
even forego the promised tax credit. However, I believe it is wrong to pass
a lex that effectively takes our governors commitment in terms of time and
money for granted.

If in replying to this post anyone wishes to question my commitment to Nova
Roma, I tell you now not to bother. My record here speaks for itself and the
thread will be a total non-starter :-)

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus

Honored Nova Roma Citizens;

I am not much of a Politican, and certainly not clever enough to seek
out the smaller fibers of a proposed law, and point out thier
detriments.

I leave that to others. The points made by my Senate Colleague Gaius
Marinus Merullus and my family friend Caius Minucius Scaevola make sense
to me, and I support thier views. Senator Merullus has long been a
valued advisor, and I have found his clarity of view and excellent
counsel to have over the years been virtually faultless. Citizen
Scaevola is one of the NR Citizens whose views I also value, and when he
speaks, I listen. The Census proposal before us gets NR off top dead
center, and moves the micronation ahead in the direction that the
citizens have determned that it should go. It moves NR out of the
impossibility (to date) to carry out the Census as approved by the
Citizens of NR.

I am sure that if one wished to do so one could find many problems with
virtually anything proposed in this area, and we should be forever
trying to make some sort of success out of the previously worded law.

As I have said, I am not much of a Politician, but I have some small
success at getting under a problem and shifting it into gear to get it
moving in the right direction in some of my career activities. The
Citizens of Nova Roma have voted to do a Census, and they have been
forced to wait due to an unrealistic set of situations which "blew out
the tires" on the effort. Our Senior Consul has put some air back into
those same tires and offers to get the effort rolling again.

As always there are nit-pickers who wish to make just one more
adjustment, dot one more "i" and cross one more "t". The Citizenship of
NR has indicated the necessity of moving ahead with this program, so I
would ask the Citizens to approve the Senior Consul's Proposal to do
just that, and let loose the brakes, so this effort can get rolling as
has been previously approved.

I do not appreciate the Citizen's desires being held up by the poking
fingers and snide remarks of those who make "political hay" from
disrupting the wishes of a nation. The final arbiters of this desire
are the people of NR, and they have spoken. Let us then come together,
and move this effort ahead, as the Citizenship has already voted too
long ago to get done.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Salvete,

I come to you, citizens, to give my fully support to Lex Fabia de
Censo.

Many illustrious citizens have spoken lots of good argumentation
about it, but I want to remember one: It turns the Provincial Census
on the National Census. The boom of provincial life is incredible.

Alas, making a break the necessity the citizens to know english. The
language bounds sure slows NR a lot. The governor can talk on its
natural language to the citizens. We must open NR to non-english
speakers as much we can if we want to make the Res Publica mission
complete, spread romanitas ´urbe et orbe´. I know in short time we
are bound to english by necessity and convenience (but on the future
we must also look foward to a better version of Lex Cornelia de
Linguis Publica also. Not now, wait 1000 active citizens, now just
the Census Law. One thing at the time.)

BUT the roman sistem of Law was a problem. By carring the name of the
proposer, some people feel ofensive changing the names.

Anyway, I´m PRO LEX FABIA

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Quaestor, Aedile et Interpreter

SALVETE QVIRITES! In an recent article published in
Italy's MTR review "La Cittadella" the importance was
stressed concerning the restoration of the Religio
Romana in the establishment by true pious Romani who
adhere to the Mos Maiorum of Lararia within their
homes and the daily practice of the Sacra Privata!
This is the most important key to the recreation of
any serious Roman Pagan community made up of
individuals, Familiae and Gentes! Long before there
was any Res Publica, there was the Familia and Gens.
And at the center and focus of every Familia there was
the household LARARIUM!!! We Romani today can do no
better than to seriously stress and encourage that all
make it a duty to Pietas and the Cultus Deorum to
establish a Lararium within ones home and daily carry
out the rites due to the Dei Familiae, the Lares and
Penates! May the Gods, the Dii Imortales be propitious
to all who undertake this duty to heart and for the
VIA ROMANA AD DEOS! (The Roman Way To The Gods!)
VALETE! FRATER, GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, SENIOR
PATERFAMILIAS GENS IVLIAE, FLAMEN FLORALIS

__________________________________
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http://search.yahoo.com

Salve,

On Mon, May 26, 2003 at 05:29:30PM -0000, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> > > The tax credit system is still cheaper and I am sure that that our
> > > loyal and enthusiastic officials are prepared to wait one year for
> > > enbursement if it keep costs down.
>
> As an incumbent governor, I do not begrudge Nova Roma either my time or my
> money. Infact I have always contributed both, and willingly so. If this lex
> passes, I will assist with the conducting the census and I will probably
> even forego the promised tax credit. However, I believe it is wrong to pass
> a lex that effectively takes our governors commitment in terms of time and
> money for granted.

Excellent: you're not arguing in your own defense but that of others -
whoever they may be. Could you point out exactly who those people are,
those magistrates that _do_ begrudge Nova Roma their time and a few
cents? If you can't, I'm afraid that you have no one to defend - and
your arguments have no point or validity.

> If in replying to this post anyone wishes to question my commitment to Nova
> Roma, I tell you now not to bother. My record here speaks for itself and the
> thread will be a total non-starter :-)

Not me. I don't question your commitment to Nova Roma - only to an idea
whose time has long passed. Let it be retired and rest in peace, as it
so fully deserves.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sed fugit interae, fugit irreparabile tempus.
But meanwhile, the irreplaceable time escapes.
-- Vergil, "Georgica". Usually, you only quote the last three words.

Salvete, omnes -

Well, I'm off to sea again in a few hours; a passage up the Gulf Stream
however far toward Norfolk it'll take me, barring contrary weather
(that's what rules my ride; time is not of the essence.) I'm sure that
there are some folks here who'll be more than happy to see me go :) -
but I'll be back when I get near land again. Until then, who knows what
life will bring? - not I... and so I wish you all good luck, good
health, and the joy of being a part of something you care about, Nova
Roma.

Until we all meet again -

Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Illi robur et aes triplex circa pectus erat, qui fragilem truci commisit pelago
ratem primus.
As hard as oak and three times bronze was the heart of him who first committed a
fragile vessel to the keeping of wild waves.
-- Horace, "Carmina"

Salve Illustrus Quaestor et Amice!

Those days are gone, for ever I hope, when the Consul of Nova Roma
would try to humiliate good and hard working citizens like You! Even
if we are at opposite sites when it comes to this law, I would stand
by your side if anyone would question your integrity and dutifulness.

>If in replying to this post anyone wishes to question my commitment to Nova
>Roma, I tell you now not to bother. My record here speaks for itself and the
>thread will be a total non-starter :-)
>
>Valete
>
>Decimus Iunius Silanus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Amice!

Safe journey, my friend and please let me hear from You soon!

>Salvete, omnes -
>
>Well, I'm off to sea again in a few hours; a passage up the Gulf Stream
>however far toward Norfolk it'll take me, barring contrary weather
>(that's what rules my ride; time is not of the essence.) I'm sure that
>there are some folks here who'll be more than happy to see me go :) -
>but I'll be back when I get near land again. Until then, who knows what
>life will bring? - not I... and so I wish you all good luck, good
>health, and the joy of being a part of something you care about, Nova
>Roma.
>
>Until we all meet again -
>
>Valete,
>Caius Minucius Scaevola

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
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Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
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Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
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Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness