----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...>
<SNIP>
> With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your comment.
> Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
> attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
> not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
<SNIP>

Salve,
Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in winter. =)
One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the lesson from
Naponleon about that one.
Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German family,
albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the subject
of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about. Even
though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of Germany has
given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To this day in
my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk about "those
back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes me so
angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those families.
More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti racism it
offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm getting myself
all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll stop now.
Vale,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

> > attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
> > not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
> <SNIP>
>
> Salve,
> Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in winter. =)
> One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the lesson from
> Naponleon about that one.

> Salve,
> Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in

> One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the

> Naponleon about that one.
> Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German

> albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the

> of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about.

> though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of

> given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To

> my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk

> back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes

> angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those

> More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti

> offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm

> all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll

> Vale,
> Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete! Omnes;
> I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have made
> an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
> Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead the
> gens.
> Valete,
> Urania Antonina

> Salve Senior Consul,
> Salvete citizens,
>
> < If I get an OK from the Populus with this proposal I will
> <get my "Officina Iuris et Rei Politicae" to start working on a new
> <lex for the Comitia Populi Tributa too.
>
> Unfortunately the only person who has replied regarding this
>proposal has been my Tribune colleague Didius Sceptius. Honestly, I
>think that the email was so long that no one read it. At best only a
>handful of us are *really* interested in a new electoral proposal,
>but a new electoral proposal mixed in between 10 pages in size 10
>font is more of an endurance test.

> Honestly this new procedure seems a little too weighty considering
>that we are talking about 300 or so votes. I could clearly see the
>writing styles change in the proposal at least twice and so I know
>that a lot of poeple must have worked very hard on this. I really
>sincerely apologize and I am expecting a lot of people to be angry
>with me, but I think that if we change our electoral system, a
>simple "the citizen who gets the majority of *voting* centuries
>wins" is good enough.

> Salve Sexte Corneli,
>
> I've been using the Windows version for some time now. I tell you,

>
> Vale,
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus
>
> "Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima

----- Original Message -----
From: Paula Drennan
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich



----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...>
<SNIP>
> With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your comment.
> Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
> attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
> not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
<SNIP>

Salve,
Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in winter. =)
One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the lesson from
Naponleon about that one.
Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German family,
albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the subject
of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about. Even
though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of Germany has
given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To this day in
my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk about "those
back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes me so
angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those families.
More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti racism it
offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm getting myself
all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll stop now.
Vale,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve Claudia Fabia Calpurnia
> I have only one regret in terms of German history
>
> WHY THE HELL DID WE DESTROY THOSE LEGIONS OF P.
>Quinctilius Varus



> We could have contributed to the empire and it that might have

>
> QUINCTILIUS VARUS WERE ARE MY EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

> Pax
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> BTW Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22 ,1941,
>
> This was well before the onset of winter, but winter did come early
>in 1941 , October if memory serves me.

> Hitler turned South against the oil fields of the Caucasus (sic) when
> strategically it made sense to continue on to Moscow. By the time the
> armies continued on to Moscow, winter was near.
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. Cornelio Cottae S.P.D.
>
> Whitaker's morphological and dictionary software is very good
> (although it does sometimes misleads by inferring a Latin neologism
> where none exists and occasionally oddly identifies some Ciceronian
> constructions as archaic). The Perseus Project's Latin
Morphological
> Analysis Tool:
>
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=Latin
>
> performs the same functions with the addition of links to C.T. Lewis
> and C. Short, _A Latin Dictionary_, and C.T. Lewis' _An Elementary
> Latin Dictionary_, in which examples of word usage is often linked
to
> context in the Latin e-texts which Perseus has amassed. The Perseus
> vocabulary is larger than Whitaker's and the definitions more
> complete. For quick translation of an unfamiliar word or morpheme
> Whitaker's Words is first rate; for more extensive contextualisation
> and a larger vocabulary the Perseus tools are probably
preferrable.
> Interestingly, however, Whitaker's program has more late antique and
> medieval Latin usages than Perseus. Perseus also has a "Latin Words
> in Context" tool which is very useful for identifying idioms and
> by-headword search engines for itsEnglish-to-Latin and
> English-to-Greek dictionaries.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

>
> BTW Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22
> ,1941,
>
> This was well before the onset of winter, but winter
> did come early in 1941 , October if memory serves
> me.
>

>The Senior Consul's email asked for comments, which I gave. I did mention
>the content, I said I thought it was a bit too weighty (complicated) and
>even apologized for feeling that way knowing that this was being worked on
>for months. At least I've read it and cared enough to give a comment. The
>good news is that with you included, there are now 3 of us amongst our 1927
>citizen Populus who have given their opinion.

> After careful study I do believe that the
> methodology employed would produce an
> accurate reflection of the will of the voters.
>
> I do have a question that I can't seem to
> satisfactorily answer for myself by reading the
> proposal. Let's say there are two people
> running for Censor. What happens in the case where
> there is a pure tie in the Centuries?

> You are a glutton for punishment aren't you? <GRIN>

> Yes, I agree, 14 or more pages of electoral reform
> is a daunting task to wade through.

> I agree, it is a complicated system for a small
> community like ours.

> Overall, though, I think this is like getting out a
> sledgehammer to kill a fly when a fly-swatter was
> all that was needed. Little steps are the best way
> to tweak a system.

> A simple switch to a large plurality would have had
> the desired effect.

> The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may have
> had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without a
> constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> works, something that can't be said for the Consul's
> proposals or any other untried proposal for reforms.

> We need a system that we know works, not another
> untried experiment that may do more harm than good,
> one that we hve no way of finding out if it will

> or not before the end of the year elections.

>Salve Tribune, Salvete omnes,
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
><diana@p...> wrote:
>> Salve Senior Consul,
>> Salvete citizens,
>>
>> < If I get an OK from the Populus with this proposal I will
>> <get my "Officina Iuris et Rei Politicae" to start working on a new
>> <lex for the Comitia Populi Tributa too.
>>
>> Unfortunately the only person who has replied regarding this
>>proposal has been my Tribune colleague Didius Sceptius. Honestly, I
>>think that the email was so long that no one read it. At best only a
>>handful of us are *really* interested in a new electoral proposal,
>>but a new electoral proposal mixed in between 10 pages in size 10
>>font is more of an endurance test.
>
>Yes, I agree, 14 or more pages of electoral reform is a daunting task
>to wade through.

> > Honestly this new procedure seems a little too weighty considering
>>that we are talking about 300 or so votes. I could clearly see the
>>writing styles change in the proposal at least twice and so I know
>>that a lot of poeple must have worked very hard on this. I really
>>sincerely apologize and I am expecting a lot of people to be angry
>>with me, but I think that if we change our electoral system, a
>>simple "the citizen who gets the majority of *voting* centuries
>>wins" is good enough.
>
>I agree, it is a complicated system for a small community like ours.
>The comparisons made to Ireland or Australia are less relevant than
>comparisons to how other small organizations or communities of a few
>hundred people conduct their voting.

>Anyway, I too admire the work that went into this proposal

>and think
>the handbook is a good idea. Hats off for that idea.

>Overall, though,
>I think this is like getting out a sledgehammer to kill a fly when a
>fly-swatter was all that was needed. Little steps are the best way to
>tweak a system. A simple switch to a large plurality would have had
>the desired effect.

>Valete,
>
>Decius Iunius Palladius

>The Senior Consul ran on a platform of restoring civility to Nova
>Roma's civil discourse. I am dismayed to see scolding coming from a
>member of the Senior Consul's staff. Please remember that each and
>every public action you take not only reflects upon yourself, but
>also reflects back upon the Senior Consul in his having entrusted you
>with being a member of his staff in the position of Accensus
>Ordinarius.

>The first question that a reasonably intelligent person would ask
>themselves, "Is it neccessary to make a change?" and I have come to
>my own personal conclusion that the answer is indeed, "Yes." The
>next question I have to ask myself, is this proposal going to solve
>the problem which it intends to solve?

>I have gone over the methodology that the Rogators would be required
>to employ to resolve an election with a fine tooth comb. I admit a
>bias on that section of the proposal since it would effect me
>directly as I hold the office of Rogator. At first glance yes, it
>does seem complicated. However that is mostly because in the United
>States, except for a few municipalities, Alternative Voting is not
>employed and I am personally unfamiliar with it. Like anything
>unfamiliar it seems complicated but after more study, it really isn't
>any more complicated than the methods currently used.

>After careful
>study I do believe that the methodology employed would produce an
>accurate reflection of the will of the voters.

>I do have a question that I can't seem to satisfactorily answer for
>myself by reading the proposal. Let's say there are two people
>running for Censor. What happens in the case where there is a pure
>tie in the Centuries?
>
>For example:
> Centuries: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
> First Choice: A B B A B B A A B A
>Second Choice: B A A B A A B B A B
>
>I realize there will be more than 10 centuries (I hope <G>) voting,
>but I decided 10 would be enough to illustrate my question. Both A
>and B are the first choice of 5 centuries each. Do the Rogators fip
>a coin to decide who get's dropped? I realize that a pure tie is
>unlikely, but from looking at the past history of Nova Roman
>elections it seems that the unlikely has a bad habit of rearing its
>ugly head.

>I apologize if I seem a little curt today. I'm suffering from a
>minor, but painful medical condition that makes prolonged sitting a
>major pain in the, well you get the idea. <GRIN>

>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus

> Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
>

> As You know I think that each of my Accensi must be free to express
> their point of view as independent persons. That is their right as
> citizens. It becomes even more important when it comes to other
> magistrates, This is a part of the agreement I have made with the
> members of my Cohors. I _do_ expect what is required in the
> Appiatores Edictum though.

> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,
>
> <The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may
> have
> <had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without
> a
> <constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> works,
> <something that can't be said for the Consul's
> <proposals or any other untried proposal for
> reforms.
>
> I remember back in 1999 and 2000 that we had another
> system but I'll admit
> that the memory is a bit fuzzy. I do seem to recall
> that in 1999 we were
> able to vote for more than one candidate.
>
> <I Propose that we return to the system that we had
> in
> <January of 2754.
> Can you post the details of the previous system? And
> why was it changed?
>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia
>
>

> Salvete! Omnes;
> I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have

> an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
> Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead the
> gens.
> Valete,
> Urania Antonina

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus
> and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may
> have
> > had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without
> a
> > constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> > works, something that can't be said for the
> Consul's
> > proposals or any other untried proposal for
> reforms.
>
> My researches in the Tabularium can discover no law
> explaining how voting worked before 2754, so I must
> infer it from the election results. It seems that
> each
> century could cast only one vote, and that whichever
> two (or one in the case of Censor) candidates got
> most
> centuries won.

>
> In the Consular election of 18 December MMDCCLIII,
> 115
> centuries voted. The tied centuries were discounted,
> meaning that the votes of the people in those
> centuries were completely wasted. Of the remaining
> centuries, 37 voted for one candidate, 34 for
> another,
> and 29 for the third.
>
> 37, the highest total, was only 32% of the total.
> The
> second candidate got 29%. Is 32% of the electorate
> really enough to make someone consul?
>
> Yes, the system worked. But there are two important
> things about electoral systems. The first is that
> they
> must give a *fair* and *accurate* representation of
> the will of the electorate. Otherwise you could say
> that whichever candidate has the most letters in his
> name wins: no run-offs there!
>
> The system in place at in 2754 was not fair. The
> current system is not fair.

>
> > We need a system that we know works, not another
> > untried experiment that may do more harm than
> good,
> > one that we hve no way of finding out if it will
> work
> > or not before the end of the year elections.
>
> Senator, electoral systems are mathematical systems.
> You don't have to try them with real people to test
> whether they work, you just sit down and think.
> Well,
> I've sat down and thought about this one, and so
> have
> better mathematicians than I, and it works. It will
> work. It is mathematically almost impossible for it
> to
> fail.

>
> Your idea about a test run is a very good one. We
> have
> plenty of time to do several tests of this system
> before the next elections. Let's do it. Senator
> Octavius Germanicus has said on this list that he
> could put together a computer simulation of an
> election in a matter of minutes. We can even try a
> couple of test-runs with real voters if you want. If
> you want it tested, then let's do it. If it were
> left
> to me, I wouldn't bother, because I've tested it in
> my
> head, I've tested it on paper with about a dozen
> different sets of candidates, and I know it works;
> but
> if others want to test it, I strongly encourage them
> to do so, and they too will find that it works.
>

>
> Salve Claudia Fabia Calpurnia
>
> [excision]
>
> I have only one regret in terms of German history
>
> WHY THE HELL DID WE DESTROY THOSE LEGIONS OF P. Quinctilius Varus
>
> We could have contributed to the empire and it that might have lasted ( longer) or at least civilized the "Teutonic " beast.
>
> QUINCTILIUS VARUS WERE ARE MY EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Pax
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>

>From the Roman side, it was an unmitigated disaster. Three legions destroyed in toto. The advance

>From the Germanic side, it was a good victory. It did allow these Northern Peoples to continue

> 3) The Romans were blood thirsty and cruel! Look at
> their circuses of
> carnage! Well we have better technology.

> discussion of the movie
> industry so far off topic to use it to say that all
> the graphic
> violent and horror movies make the best money at the
> box office? What
> does that say about our taste.

> Mother -"Oh, you long haired hippy kids might well
> be our ruin!"
> Says Quintus, " Oh that's been said by all oldies
> for 3000 years
> Mother " Yes indeed! Aristotle said that to the
> Greeks...and they
> fell! Marcus Aurelius made a similar content about
> the Romans... and
> they fell, Churchill said that of the British
> Empire... and you
> guessed it... it fell!

> SALVETE OMNES! This morning at my Lararium I recited
> the hymn to SOL in honor of the Solstice and offered
> Sol incense. Then of course I made offerings to my Dei
> Familiae. This hymn by the way is the one well known
> by Marziano Capella and is commonly used by Roman
> Pagans in Italia, namely the MTR. I want to wish all
> my fellow Romani a very happy Summer Solstice! Buon
> auguri! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
> P.S. Besides Sol, Iuppiter Summanus and Fors
> Fortuna is honored at this solstice period, June 19th
> - 26th.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

> LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared for
> the posibility that it won't work, or that the voters
> will dislike it after trying it and will reject it.
> That is why I have called for starting out with
> returning to the system we had prior to 2754. That
> will ensure that a working system is in place prior to
> the elections at the end of this year.

> As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold them
> with Historic Romans as the canidates rather than our
> present citizens. That could add a bit of intrest to
> the situation.

>
>Read it all but snipped for space>

> Cordially, Rory
>
> PS: Has any one here studied the mythos of "Elysium"
> at all? It has always interested me, but there doesn't
> seem to be a large amount of material to study
> pertaining this belief in the Roman afterlife....
> So far the best book that i have come across is "The
> Ancient Mysteries --- A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of
> the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
> World".....It includes pertinent information about the
> Greek Mysteries of the Grain Mother and Daughter, the
> Homeric Hymn to Demeter, The Andanian Mysteries of
> Messenia, The Greek Mysteries of Dionysos, the
> Anatolian Mysteries of the Great Mother and Her Lover,
> and the Syrian Goddess, the Egyptian Mysteries of Isis
> and Osiris, and best of all, the Roman Mysteries of
> Mithras.....
>
>
>
> =====
> "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I

>
>
> http://www.galacticapublishing.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

> LSD: The first three Leges in the tabularium,

> by the Dictator Vedius, are the last election leges
> we had that worked.

> LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared
> for the posibility that it won't work, or that the
> voters will dislike it after trying it and will
> reject it.

> As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold
> them with Historic Romans as the canidates rather
> than our present citizens. That could add a bit of
> intrest to the situation.

> I don't understand why it has to be so complicated.
> I'd have to take a day off just to read it, and
> figure out how it works.

> Everywhere in the 21st century magistrates are
> elected by majority vote... Why
> not a majority vote system and the 2 top candidates
> for runoffs.

> Sp. Postumius L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.
>
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> <snipped>
>
> > LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> > system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared
> for
> > the posibility that it won't work, or that the
> voters
> > will dislike it after trying it and will reject
> it.
> > That is why I have called for starting out with
> > returning to the system we had prior to 2754. That
> > will ensure that a working system is in place
> prior to
> > the elections at the end of this year.
>
> If this is the case, and we do need to be prepared
> for the citizens' distaste for it, why not simply
> start with a trial run _before_ we put it to the
> voters for a final vote? I see no reason to revert
> to old, ahistorical ways if we can try a new,
> historical way before it is fully put to a vote for
> ratification or failure. Do you agree?
>

> <more snipping>
>
> > As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold
> them
> > with Historic Romans as the canidates rather than
> our
> > present citizens. That could add a bit of intrest
> to
> > the situation.
>
> Why not? I say a consular election, with some
> historic consulars from the ancient days. What do
> you think, Senator Druse? I think this could be fun,
> as well as educating.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus
>

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus
> and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > LSD: The first three Leges in the tabularium,
> enacted
> > by the Dictator Vedius, are the last election
> leges
> > we had that worked.
>
> Indeed, thank you. I looked at these, but the
> section
> on voting was in amongst various other provisions,
> and
> I missed it. My mistake.
>
> > LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> > system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared
> > for the posibility that it won't work, or that the
> > voters will dislike it after trying it and will
> > reject it.
>
> I am certainly prepared for the latter possibility.
> As
> for the former, certainly, let us test it. Shall we
> try some computer simulations first? These can be
> done
> as soon as anyone with the necessary expertize can
> write the programme - a matter of days at most, if I
> understand it aright. Once written, the computer
> programme can simulate umpteen different elections
> in
> a very short space of time. The most thorough test
> you
> could wish for should be over within a couple of
> weeks.
>
> Then we can run a couple of real-life simulations,
> if
> you like. We can dispense with the contio, because
> the
> candidates will not be real. 5 days from beginning
> to
> end of the voting period, so let's allow a week for
> each mock-election. Two ought to be enough.
>
> So in less than a month we'll have finished the
> tests.
> Why, then, would there be any need to change back to
> the pre-'54 system before then? We can just do the
> tests and then vote on the proposed system.
>
> > As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold
> > them with Historic Romans as the canidates rather
> > than our present citizens. That could add a bit of
> > intrest to the situation.
>
> That seems like a fine idea.
>
> Let's get started. If anyone out there can write the
> computer programme, I'll happily explain to them how
> the system works so they can get it running.
>
> Cordus
>

> I do agree that our technology is better, and,
> especially in regard to the modern British military
> and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
> and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
> do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
> aptly termed "baby killers" )

>that can kill from
> thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
> human eye), and the bombing raids that ,
> PREDOMINANTLY
> kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
> mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
> beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
> informative website (entitled "Iraq Body Count")
> that
> shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
> is:
>
> http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
>

>MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QVIRITIBVS S.P.D.
>
>AVETE,
>

>I do agree that our technology is better, and,
>especially in regard to the modern British military
>and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
>and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
>do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
>aptly termed “baby killers“ ) that can kill from
>thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
>human eye), and the bombing raids that , PREDOMINANTLY
>kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
>mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
>beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
>informative website (entitled “Iraq Body Count“) that
>shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
>is:
>

> -----Original Message-----
> To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date : 21 June 2003 15:04:01
>
> >I do agree that our technology is better, and,
> >especially in regard to the modern British military
> >and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
> >and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability
> to
> >do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
> >aptly termed �baby killers� ) that can kill from
> >thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
> >human eye), and the bombing raids that ,
> PREDOMINANTLY
> >kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
> >mutilated children and women in Iraq, for
> example)is
> >beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
> >informative website (entitled �Iraq Body Count�)
> that
> >shows the evidence of this form of high tech
> cruelty
> >is:
> >
> We have improved perhaps in our attitude to slaves,
> though today of course everybody is a kind of slave.

> War becomes more bloody as it becomes more distanced
> of course. What is often so striking is that men are
> far less often cowards for fear of death than for
> horror of *killing*. Ancient war meant some poor
> bugger on the end of your spear where you could feel
> him wriggling. Modern is increasingly a video game.
> Earlier this year there was a 'reunion' in Havana
> of top brass involved in the 1963 Missile Crisis
> (surprising so many are still alive!). They just
> could not believe how, isolated in their bunkers,
> both sides were talking glibly of nuclear holocaust
> and first strike, and even Fidel prepared to go up
> in flames by retaliating if the USA invaded. Not fof
> nothing, that policy was called MAD.

> Oh Please!
> Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> rates.
>
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
>Salvete,

> The proposed system is hardly more historic than the
> present system, or the older system.

> This is how the Romans avoided runoffs. They knew
> each canidate's relative postion in the ongoing
> talley and could throw thier support behind a
> canidate who was the "lesser of the two evils" if
> thier prefered canidate no longer stood a chance of
> winning.

> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

> Humans are simply too complex for a computer
> simulation to take thier behavior into account.

> Here is an interesting article by the Washington
> Post called: The Lessons of Terror: A Hstory of
> Warefare Against Civilians- Why It Does Not Work -
> Chapter 1 - Rome.

> That newspaper headline announced that President
> Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls, the
> early retuns and the mathmatical models showed that
> Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing happened
> though, when the Votes were counted, President Truman
> had been reelected.

> LSD: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm145.html
>
> That newspaper headline announced that President
> Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls, the
> early retuns and the mathmatical models showed that
> Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing happened
> though, when the Votes were counted, President Truman
> had been reelected.
>
> Humans are simply too complex for a computer
> simulation to take thier behavior into account.

> Under the proposed system, the only really important
> thing for the voting is whether an individual likes
> any given candidate enough to vote for them.

> G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, L. Sicini.
>
> > LSD:
> http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm145.html
> >
> > That newspaper headline announced that President
> > Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls,
> the
> > early retuns and the mathmatical models showed
> that
> > Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing
> happened
> > though, when the Votes were counted, President
> Truman
> > had been reelected.
> >
> > Humans are simply too complex for a computer
> > simulation to take thier behavior into account.
>
> I think most survey research specialists would
> attribute the failure
> of opinion polling in the Trumen-Dewey race to a
> flawed research
> design, not the foibles of human unpredictability.
> The flaw in the
> survey was selection of respondents from telephone
> books. The
> distribution of home telephones in the U.S. in 1948
> was heavily skewed
> toward those socio-economic classes predisposed to
> vote for
> Republicans. It is unsurprising from this selection
> of respondents
> that a prediction of a landslide for Dewey would
> emerge.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus
> and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may
> have
> > had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without
> a
> > constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> > works, something that can't be said for the
> Consul's
> > proposals or any other untried proposal for
> reforms.
>
> My researches in the Tabularium can discover no law
> explaining how voting worked before 2754, so I must
> infer it from the election results. It seems that
> each
> century could cast only one vote, and that whichever
> two (or one in the case of Censor) candidates got
> most
> centuries won.

>
> In the Consular election of 18 December MMDCCLIII,
> 115
> centuries voted. The tied centuries were discounted,
> meaning that the votes of the people in those
> centuries were completely wasted. Of the remaining
> centuries, 37 voted for one candidate, 34 for
> another,
> and 29 for the third.
>
> 37, the highest total, was only 32% of the total.
> The
> second candidate got 29%. Is 32% of the electorate
> really enough to make someone consul?
>
> Yes, the system worked. But there are two important
> things about electoral systems. The first is that
> they
> must give a *fair* and *accurate* representation of
> the will of the electorate. Otherwise you could say
> that whichever candidate has the most letters in his
> name wins: no run-offs there!
>
> The system in place at in 2754 was not fair. The
> current system is not fair.

>
> > We need a system that we know works, not another
> > untried experiment that may do more harm than
> good,
> > one that we hve no way of finding out if it will
> work
> > or not before the end of the year elections.
>
> Senator, electoral systems are mathematical systems.
> You don't have to try them with real people to test
> whether they work, you just sit down and think.
> Well,
> I've sat down and thought about this one, and so
> have
> better mathematicians than I, and it works. It will
> work. It is mathematically almost impossible for it
> to
> fail.

>
> Your idea about a test run is a very good one. We
> have
> plenty of time to do several tests of this system
> before the next elections. Let's do it. Senator
> Octavius Germanicus has said on this list that he
> could put together a computer simulation of an
> election in a matter of minutes. We can even try a
> couple of test-runs with real voters if you want. If
> you want it tested, then let's do it. If it were
> left
> to me, I wouldn't bother, because I've tested it in
> my
> head, I've tested it on paper with about a dozen
> different sets of candidates, and I know it works;
> but
> if others want to test it, I strongly encourage them
> to do so, and they too will find that it works.
>

> Oh Please!
> Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> rates.

----- Original Message -----
From: "GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS" <gfr@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:56 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?


> G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, L. Sicini.
>
> > Oh Please!
> > Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> > the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> > of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> > Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> > weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> > rates.
>
> The examples of Troy and Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War
> aren't particularly apt. The Homeric epics are not historical
> accounts and the archaeology presumed to relate to the period of the
> Trojan war suggests that earthquake was as damaging as the seige. In
> the case of Carthage the taking of a single city seems hardly
> analogous to modern warfare. In the case of Caesar's Gallic
> campaigns, and this is true of ancient and medieval warfare generally,
> the relatively low level of civilian casualties (and I am happy to
> grant that there are occasional exceptions to this general tendency)
> resulted from low population densities and the smaller zones of
> lethality associated with ancient and medieval weapons; most civilian
> casualties resulted from starvation and disease in the wake of an
> army's foraging and destruction of food stores to deny them to the
> enemy, and often resulted from the actions of armies nominally on the
> "side" of the affected civilians. While there are several examples of
> savage targeting of civilian populations, particularly in the context
> of the early modern European wars of religion, it is with the
> emergence of nationalism and gunpowder technology that the distinction
> between civilian and combatant began to blur. The Spanish uprising
> against the Bonapartes and the savage repression it prompted signalled
> the potential for large scale slaughter which nationalism and firearms
> portended. The emergence of industrialisation as an index of the
> capacity of a nation to wage war sealed these developments and
> ensured that industrial production centers, manned by civilians and
> usually colocated with civilian population centers, would become
> legitimate military targets. The emergence of aerial bombing
> multiplied the carnage by bringing virtually all the industrial
> capacity of an enemy within a combatant's zone of lethality.
>
> That the civilian casualty rate in the U.S. invasion of Iraq was quite
> low -- and I think that fact is indisputable -- is a function of the
> effectiveness of bombing in the first Gulf war and post-war sanctions
> in destroying the industrial base on the basis of which Iraq could
> wage war. The increasing accuracy of munitions was a much less
> important factor in reducing civilian casualties than the absence of
> meaningful targets in locations rife with civilians.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>
> Avete et Salutatio Censors et Romani of NovaRoma:
>
> As a Rogatore, I have reviewed the "Proposal for a
> Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum" and I
> find it reasonable and workable.
>
> It appears to address the problem of repeat
> elections that have plagued NovaRoma for the last
> six months.
>

> Can we agree that killing civilians is bad, and
> always has been, always will
> be and move on?
>
> M Flavius Aurelius
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS" <gfr@...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:56 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> > G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.
> >
> > Salve, L. Sicini.
> >
> > > Oh Please!
> > > Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar
> results to
> > > the World Wars on the native population. The
> Nations
> > > of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the
> Trojan and
> > > Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st
> century
> > > weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> > > rates.
> >
> > The examples of Troy and Carthage at the end of
> the Third Punic War
> > aren't particularly apt. The Homeric epics are
> not historical
> > accounts and the archaeology presumed to relate to
> the period of the
> > Trojan war suggests that earthquake was as
> damaging as the seige. In
> > the case of Carthage the taking of a single city
> seems hardly
> > analogous to modern warfare. In the case of
> Caesar's Gallic
> > campaigns, and this is true of ancient and
> medieval warfare generally,
> > the relatively low level of civilian casualties
> (and I am happy to
> > grant that there are occasional exceptions to this
> general tendency)
> > resulted from low population densities and the
> smaller zones of
> > lethality associated with ancient and medieval
> weapons; most civilian
> > casualties resulted from starvation and disease in
> the wake of an
> > army's foraging and destruction of food stores to
> deny them to the
> > enemy, and often resulted from the actions of
> armies nominally on the
> > "side" of the affected civilians. While there are
> several examples of
> > savage targeting of civilian populations,
> particularly in the context
> > of the early modern European wars of religion, it
> is with the
> > emergence of nationalism and gunpowder technology
> that the distinction
> > between civilian and combatant began to blur. The
> Spanish uprising
> > against the Bonapartes and the savage repression
> it prompted signalled
> > the potential for large scale slaughter which
> nationalism and firearms
> > portended. The emergence of industrialisation as
> an index of the
> > capacity of a nation to wage war sealed these
> developments and
> > ensured that industrial production centers, manned
> by civilians and
> > usually colocated with civilian population
> centers, would become
> > legitimate military targets. The emergence of
> aerial bombing
> > multiplied the carnage by bringing virtually all
> the industrial
> > capacity of an enemy within a combatant's zone of
> lethality.
> >
> > That the civilian casualty rate in the U.S.
> invasion of Iraq was quite
> > low -- and I think that fact is indisputable -- is
> a function of the
> > effectiveness of bombing in the first Gulf war and
> post-war sanctions
> > in destroying the industrial base on the basis of
> which Iraq could
> > wage war. The increasing accuracy of munitions
> was a much less
> > important factor in reducing civilian casualties
> than the absence of
> > meaningful targets in locations rife with
> civilians.
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > G. Iulius Scaurus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>

> "The percentage of American households with telephone
> service reached fifty percent in 1945, seventy percent
> in 1955, and ninety percent in 1969."
> http://www.att.com/history/history3.html
>
> If we assume that the 20% growth between 1945 and 1955
> was constant we have 2% a year, or 56% in 1948.
>
> This wasn't solely based on economic lines. Persons
> living in Rural areas were far less likely to have
> phone service. Rural voters outside of the Southern
> States were far more likely to vote Republican than
> Democratic. Urban voters were more likely to have
> Telephones, and the urban voters would include the
> Union members who were very likely to vote Democratic.
>
> The failure was the timing of the polls, in October,
> and a falure to anticipate that Truman's whistle stop
> campaign would swing a large number of voters.
>
> Dewey's support was there in October, but it was
> softer than the polls revealed, a failure to take the
> Human element into consideration.

> SOME people who have a bias against the United States
> and it's military forces seem to be incapable of
> refraining from introducing the subject into this
> forum. I won't bring the subject up, but I won't let
> thier slurs go unanswered either.

----- Original Message -----
From: Heathen Renewal
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?



> 3) The Romans were blood thirsty and cruel! Look at
> their circuses of
> carnage! Well we have better technology.

Indeed the Romans, during war, like many great Empires
did commit atrocities and the circuses and the
gladiator bouts (I ramble on at length in my review of
the film "Gladiator" in our webzine:)


http://www.galacticapublishing.com/av_silver_screen.php

I do agree that our technology is better, and,
especially in regard to the modern British military
and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
aptly termed "baby killers" ) that can kill from
thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
human eye), and the bombing raids that , PREDOMINANTLY
kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
informative website (entitled "Iraq Body Count") that
shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
is:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/




> discussion of the movie
> industry so far off topic to use it to say that all
> the graphic
> violent and horror movies make the best money at the
> box office? What
> does that say about our taste.


Yes, well, like I said, very similiar to the Gladiator
bouts that the great Stoic Marcus Aurelius banned.


> Mother -"Oh, you long haired hippy kids might well
> be our ruin!"
> Says Quintus, " Oh that's been said by all oldies
> for 3000 years
> Mother " Yes indeed! Aristotle said that to the
> Greeks...and they
> fell! Marcus Aurelius made a similar content about
> the Romans... and
> they fell, Churchill said that of the British
> Empire... and you
> guessed it... it fell!


:) All Empires die, (despite what Hitler said,in his
speeches of a Reich that is "eternal") no Empire is
free of the age of senility (just look at the American
Empire under the Bush dynasty!) and lasts "1000
years"...as Spengler wrote, "all civilizations have
their spring, summer, fall and winter and the West is
now seeing its own death..."

Cordially, Rory

PS: Has any one here studied the mythos of "Elysium"
at all? It has always interested me, but there doesn't
seem to be a large amount of material to study
pertaining this belief in the Roman afterlife....
So far the best book that i have come across is "The
Ancient Mysteries --- A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of
the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
World".....It includes pertinent information about the
Greek Mysteries of the Grain Mother and Daughter, the
Homeric Hymn to Demeter, The Andanian Mysteries of
Messenia, The Greek Mysteries of Dionysos, the
Anatolian Mysteries of the Great Mother and Her Lover,
and the Syrian Goddess, the Egyptian Mysteries of Isis
and Osiris, and best of all, the Roman Mysteries of
Mithras.....



=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."


http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: M Arminius Maior
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia


Salve

--- me-in-@... escreveu: > -----Original
Message-----
[..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
[..] I wonder how many of us there are?
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
Hibernia:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives

Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
Titus Octavius Nevinus
Titus Maxentius Verus
Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso


Vale
Marcus Arminius

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> First among these was a pronounced taste for
> revenge against enemies who were perceived as intractable or
> treacherous—the most famous example of such mortal enemies being the
> Carthaginian empire of the late third century b.c. and its leader,
> Hannibal. The long years of struggle against Hannibal—whose raids and
> campaigns throughout Italy bred both bloodthirsty hatred and a
> powerful sense of vulnerability in his opponents—eventually led the
> Romans, when they finally did occupy Carthage more than fifty years
> later, to not only sack but utterly destroy the city.

> LSD: The upper estimate (7240) is still far lower
> than
> the number of Iraqis found in mass graves, murdered
> by
> the Bathist regime that the left tried so hard to
> keep
> in power.

> Salve
>
> --- me-in-@... escreveu: > -----Original
> Message-----
> [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
> According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> Hibernia:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
>
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> Titus Octavius Nevinus
> Titus Maxentius Verus
> Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
>
>
> Vale
> Marcus Arminius
>
>

> Yahoo! Mail
> Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,

> http://br.mail.yahoo.com/