Salve Tite,

As I mentioned to Urania the other day, that does not seem to be an
active gens. Hopefully the'rll be some shuffling and rearranging of
gens after the census.

As for history, Rome knew of Hibernia and traded with the natives.
There was a plan to invade Hibernia; Agricola thought he could do it
with 1 or 2 legions but other problems came up and the plan was
shelved indefinitely. A few Irish chietains sought sanctuary in Roman
Britain after losing internal quarrels in Hibernia. Anyway based on
that little history, I'm sure some Roman traders, scouts or diplomats
got over there. If anyone has more information on Hibernia and Rome
we'd love to know!


Regards,

Quintus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Maxentius Verus"
<jgrady@l...> wrote:

> Salvete Omnes et Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi,

Tite

> > Maxenti, Gai Porsenni, et Urania Calidia,
>
> I am Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
> citizen of Nova Roma.
>
> Fellow Hibernians, I am curious: Why is that, on the Album

Gentium,

> only two inhabitants of IE (Hibernia) are listed? I was thus under
> the impression that there was no settlement of Nova Roman families

in

> Hibernia. It seems that the lists on the main site regarding Gens
> and Cives are not complete.
>
> It is good to know, however, that we have a developing Nova Roman
> community here, in Hibernia, that, together, we can bring the Via
> Romana to this dark isle, and, that, hopefully, we will eventually
> achieve provincial status.
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Maxentius Verus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>

wrote:

> > Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi,

Tite

> > Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
> >
> > In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> > joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start

of

> > the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> > friendship!
> > Valete,
> > Urania Calidia Antonina
> >
> > n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > --- me-in-@... escreveu: > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> > >
> > >
> > > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > > Hibernia:
> > >
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> > >
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale
> > > Marcus Arminius
> > >
> > >
> >
>

______________________________________________________________________

> > _
> > > Yahoo! Mail
> > > Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> > antivírus, proteção contra spam.
> > > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/

Salve Amice!

Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
position as Legate in Britannia! Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus I
also offer You congratulations for getting such a good and competent
Legatus and assistant!

Hereby I wish Provincia Britannia a good summer and a bright future
in Nova Roma! ;-)

>A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
>all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
>> I. Citizen Aulus Apollonius Cordus is hereby
>> appointed legatus of regio Britannia Inferior.
>
>I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
>working with you and our compatriots to further the
>cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
>Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!
>
>Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
>who shouldn't, and which one...
>
>Again, many thanks,
>
>Cordus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Urania,
Please don't hang yourself, I'll try to improve my spelling, lol.

In a conversation between Ovid and his mentor:
Nullo metro compositum est.

Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema.

It doesn't rhyme.
I don't care. If it doesn't rhyme, it isn't a poem.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> This is Nova Roma; the home of Cicero, Ovid, Lucretius!
> Citizens I will hang myself upon my palla if we cannot pick up
> our stylii and write with verve and literacy.
> Vale,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...>
> wrote:
> > Some people value content, others are more shallow and
> > can't see past style.
> >
> > "I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a word
> > one way"
> > Mark Twain
> >
>SNIP

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> I personally would not be inclined to re-write the
> rest of the law to achieve stylistic unity, for this
> would seem an unnecessary slight to the drafters of
> the Cornelian-Octavian law. If, however, citizens
> would like this to be done, then I encourage them to
> identify the member of the Consul's staff who they
> feel has the clearest and most pleasant prose style
> and ask him or her to do it! :)

I know this will not be me, as I've been told, numerously, that my legal writing makes rocket science seem extremely easy! :)

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus

--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@...>
wrote:

<snip>

> I shall ask the Consul to remove the word 'yes' from
> V.B.4 before he calls for a vote upon the bill.
>
> Thank you for your support and attention to detail.
> :)
>
>

I admire your taking such quick action on this
matter and for taking responsibility for a clerical
error. As I stated previously, I did not believe that
this happened intentionally on the part of the Senior
Consul or any of his staff.

Lucius Quintius Constantius (Lacus Magni)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Salve,
Table the spelling issue for a minute or add to it grammar and the
many various verb tenses when conjugating.
Being well spoken is har enough without adding to it being well
written.
I applaude those who can do both.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 5:08:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@y... writes:
>
>
> > Ah, but people you speak of were unaware of the
> > concept of "correct" spelling
>
> Actually for years people spelled "phonetically" Especially in old
English.
> And if you study graffiti in Pompeii or Duras Europa you will find
that not
> every
> one wrote like Tullius or Iulius.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know people so good at typing they only need two fingers, lol.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@a...> wrote:

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Flavius Aurelius
> <marcus.flavius@b...> wrote:
> > Quintus,
> >
> > There is a difference between shorthand and illiteracy :-)
> >
> > As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of "intellectuals" was
> ironic. But was
> > disappointed to find it wasn't.
> >
> > M Flavius Aurelius
>
> Salve,
>
> Not everyone here is a touch typist such as myself. My sister can
> write a letter in long hand that is flawless, but put her on a
> keyboard and all semblence of education goes out the window. Also
> not everyone in Nova Roma has English as their first language so

one

> must make allowances for interesting spelling and syntax.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus

P.S.
I thought Polymnia was the Muse of mime? Please correct me if I am
wron - there are 9 of them.
A mime is a terrible thing to waste!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> rory12001 <rory12001@y...> writes:
>
> > I offer
> > libations to the Muse of Literacy (who would that be?)
>
> There's no single Muse of Literacy, since most of the Muses are
> patronesses of writers of one sort or other. Probably the best
> choice for what you intend would be Polyhymnia, the Muse of
> Sacred Poetry. She is the patroness of those writers who have
> gained immortal fame with their writing.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.eliki.com/portals/fantasy/circle/polyhymnia.html
>
> For more about her.
>
> -- Marinus

Salve Gneus,
Terpsichore is the muse of lyric poetry and dance and Calliope is the
Muse of Epic poetry. There is no Muse if literacy per se but there
is hope that Jupiter will father another, lol.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> rory12001 <rory12001@y...> writes:
>
> > I offer
> > libations to the Muse of Literacy (who would that be?)
>
> There's no single Muse of Literacy, since most of the Muses are
> patronesses of writers of one sort or other. Probably the best
> choice for what you intend would be Polyhymnia, the Muse of
> Sacred Poetry. She is the patroness of those writers who have
> gained immortal fame with their writing.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.eliki.com/portals/fantasy/circle/polyhymnia.html
>
> For more about her.
>
> -- Marinus

Salvete Omnes; Salvete Urania Calidia, Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi,
Tite Octavi, et Gai Porsenni,

This is Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
citizen of Nova Roma. It is brilliant to note that, instead of being
a lone Nova Roman isolated on this dark isle, there is actually a
colony of us. Hopefully, we will be more successful in spreading the
Via Romana to the barbarians than were the courageous but unfortunate
Romans in that one brief outpost on our shore many centuries before.
This time, I pray, the indigenous Celts will welcome our superior
civilisation.

(If not, well, then, we will conquer them.)

Valete,

Titus Maxentius Verus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi, Tite
> Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
>
> In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start of
> the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> friendship!
> Valete,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
> n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> > Salve
> >
> > --- me-in-@... escreveu: > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> >
> >
> > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > Hibernia:
> >
> > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> >
> > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> >
> >
> > Vale
> > Marcus Arminius
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> _
> > Yahoo! Mail
> > Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> antivírus, proteção contra spam.
> > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/

Grazie mio caro amico nuovo!
Spero di verderlo quando arrivo a Roma, se possibile.
Trans:
I hope to see it when I get to Rome.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> this is the report by Illustrus Marcus Iulius Perusianus, Legatus

in

> Provincia Italia and my assistant, about the last news about the
> famous project of Restoration of the Temple of Magna Mater in Rome.
> They are good news and a good start-line to
> discuss how the project must grow.
> Please, read this little report and give me your opinion.
> I'm sending this report to every higher Magistrates and Istitutions
> of Nova Roma.
> I would like to have several suggestions about the continuing of

the

> project.
>
> In the same time I'm developing the new website of the Project (I
> hope to have the help of Prof. Pensabene, Director Archeologist of
> the Palatine).
>
>SNIP

Salute!
Though not in L.A. nor a Fabi, I never neglect a God or Goddess.
Blessings.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 11:21:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> anubis8569@y... writes:
>
>
> > 1.Feast of Fors Fontuna(Lady Luck)
> >
> Q. Fabius Maximus SPD
>
> Salvete
>
> We had a small gathering of Fabi tonight to honor the goddess, my
personal
> patron.
> We had bread, fowl, grapes, dates, and red wine to wash it all down.
> However it is shame that more Fabi do not live in LA so that they
could
> partake.
> However we drank a toast to all our gensmates, where ever they
were.
>
> Valete
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@...> writes:

> Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
> position as Legate in Britannia!

Yes! A thousand times yes! Cordus is one of our best and
brightest. I'm very pleased to see him recognized with this
appointment.

-- Marinus

Salve, Gaius Iulius Scaurus:

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 07:32:50AM -0000, GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus C. Minucio Scaevolae salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, C. Minuci.
>
> > And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
> > it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> > opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> > power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> > here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>
> "Faction" does have some prejorative meanings in English (as did
> factio in Latin; in fact factio carried rather more prejorative a
> semantic field than "faction" does in English). However, I'm not
> certain what other term to use which objectively describes the
> situation. C. Fabius ran for consul on a platform and was elected on
> that basis. I would not serve in the cohors of someone with whom I
> fundamentally disagreed on any major matter of public policy and I
> would hazard the guess -- since neither of you have given me the
> slightest reason to suspect that you say or do things political in
> which you do not believe -- that neither would you or A. Apollonius.

You're certainly correct in my case; I believe this is also true of
Cordus. However, I would hesitate to apply the above to everyone on the
Consul's staff as a blanket condition - I simply don't know everyone
that well. As the saying goes, EPID.

<http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5011/acronyms.html#EPID>

> To my mind it isn't unreasonable for someone to characterise A.
> Apollonius or any other member of the cohors as being in the faction
> of the senior consul by virtue of his choice of public service among
> the consul's advisors unless he indicates that he serves under
> specific restrictions of allegiance above and beyond what loyalty to
> NR and personal honour require. I'm not trying to be difficult, but
> what would you call a group of people who share common beliefs and a
> common approach to public policy and collectively seek to implement
> those beliefs while serving in government, if not a faction? I happen
> to think that factions in that sense are the things that make
> governance possible and are nothing to despise, but if you haave a
> more appropriate term, I'd like to know it.

"Faction", to my mind, is specifically out - not because it's pejorative
/per se/ but because it's inaccurate: the central meaning it carries in
all the definitions I quoted is "minority party _not_ in power" or "in
opposition to the government". This is in direct opposition to part of
your own definition, above ("...while serving in government"). The
Cohors works for the Consul, and I think that can definitely be
described as being part of the government.

As to what term I would use to describe such a group, the answer would
have to be "it depends". If I was trying to describe it functionally,
I'd say "staff" or "cohors". If I was trying to describe it in political
terms as you suggest, I would be in a false position no matter what term
I used, since I don't know everyone's political alignment within this
group - motivations for being on the Consul's staff probably have as
many variations as there are staff members, and complete political
agreement is neither required nor looked for (as far as I can tell.)
What the Consul requires of us is good effort put forth on specific
tasks that are assigned; your political beliefs are your own, what
matters is the quality of work that you produce. Those with radically
different beliefs would probably not have even been invited to join -
although _that_ can be an interesting option as well - but this still
leaves a very broad field for variations.

The Boni are a faction here, because they distinguish themselves by
their political "colors" - even if they're not organized as any
functional group such as the Cohors; functionality, in this case, does
not require an absolute alignment of political beliefs, nor does the
presence of such an alignment indicate a functional grouping. These two
things simply do not map onto each other here (although there's no
denying that they can, to the point of overlapping completely.)

Besides the above inaccuracy, I cannot apply "faction" in good
conscience to a group whose members have not either stated their beliefs
or acted on them in such a way as to make them obvious. People who are
trying to create political targets to be shot at - I do not include you
in this, erm, faction - will ignore that little nuance and do what they
will. If you can define a need (other than that one) for describing the
Cohors in political terms, I'd be very interested in knowing what it is.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Qui statuit aliquid parte inaudita altera, aequum licet statuerit.
One who passes sentence on something without having heard the other part isn't
just, even if the sentence is just.
-- Seneca Philosophus, Medea. Cf. "audietur et altera pars."

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 03:53:40AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/23/03 11:10:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@... writes:
>
> > The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> > opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> > power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> > here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>
> Except that is not the Roman definition of a faction, which if you research
> in Oxford Classical Dictionary, corresponds closer to the Tribune's stated
> definition. We are Romans recreating Roman politics are we not? Your definition
> is correct in modern usage.

I don't have the OCD at hand, but we are not Ancient Romans speaking
Latin with its original meanings. On this list, the common language is
English, and the meanings in common usage are the modern ones.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Imperium et libertas.
Empire and liberty.
-- Benjamin Disraeli; from Cicero and Tacitus

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 10:38:43AM +0100, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:

> Salve Diana Moravia,
>
> > Honestly I needed a break
> > from reading so many
> > electoral reform emails :-p
>
> But I thought that this was what you wanted and asked
> for ;-)

Ouch! Have a pinch of snuff, Diana. :)


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Non amo te, Sabidi, nec possum dicere quare:
hoc tantum possum dicere, non amo te.
I do not like you, Sabid, but I can't say why:
I can only say this, I do not like you.
-- Martialis, "Epigrammaton liber"

Salve, Diana -

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 02:29:12PM +0200, Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius Scaevola,
>
> DMA's definition of a faction
> "A number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique."
>
> CMS's definition of faction:

Nope. Not mine - Webster's.

> <Really? My Webster's says:
> "A party, in political society, combined or acting in union, in opposition
> to the government, or state; -- usually applied to a minority, but it may be
> applied to a majority; a combination or clique of partisans of any kind,
> acting for their own interests, especially if greedy, clamorous, and
> reckless of the common good." (snip) "seeks power through intrigue",
>
> CMS:
> <And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
> <it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> <opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> <power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> <here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>
> Huh??? Uhhh, I hate to tell you this but you are disagreeing with yourself,
> since *you* are the one who posted that rather nasty definition of a faction
> in reference to the CC-- not me! But a nice try at getting everyone
> confused into thinking that I slandered the entire Cohors Consulis....

Whoa, whoa - wind down the rhetoric machine, please. I wasn't accusing
you of slandering anyone, or trying to get anyone confused; what I said,
since it obviously was not clear to you, is that the meaning of
"faction" is not what you think it is, at least not in common usage, and
I disagree with your application of the term. Is that any clearer?

> I said that a faction as defined in *my?* dictionary was not a bad thing: "A
> number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique." Obviously we have
> different versions of Webster's.

Yup. I think that mine represents the more common perception of the
term; G. Iulius Scaurus, at least, seems to agree though he believes
that the term can be stretched to cover the Cohors. This is about
nothing more than definitions. I think you know that if I wanted to be
disparaging of you or was trying to say that you slandered someone, I
would make it clear as day and leave no doubt whatsoever. <wink>


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ars longa, vita brevis.
Art is long, life is short.
-- Seneca, "De brevitate vitae"

I found this on a site that dealt with the
history of
corporations. I thought it was interesting in so
far
as it applies to the ancient Roman collegia.

I have been doing some research on the
collegia. I
know that some were little more than a funeral
benefit
society for their members, others had religious
motives, and still others were similar to trade
guilds.

If I remember correctly, Julius Caesar outlawed
the
collegia because they were dabbling too much in
politics. I know that the collegia existed in
the
time of Marcus Aurelius, but I'm not certain
about
when they were made legal once again.

Also, if someone could supply the text of the
legislation from Justinian's Code (hopefully with
an
English translation) that would be much
appreciated.
I would also like to hear the comments from our
ancient scholars on this list about the collegia
and
how they worked.

For those who want a short digression from the
election reform proposals.

-----------------------------------------------------
ANCIENT CORPORATIONS

Among the ancient Greeks a kind of association
called
etairia corresponded in its characteristics very
closely with the modern corporation. Solon is
said to
have encouraged the formation of such bodies, and
in
his legislation permitted them to be instituted
freely
and to engage in any transactions not contrary to
law.
The Roman prototype of the corporation as it came
into
existence under the common law of England, and
from
England was transplanted into America, was the
collegium. This kind of association, called also
corpus, was required to consist of at least three
persons (Dig., L, tit. xvi), and persons who had
regularly and legally constituted a collegium
were
said corpus habere (to have a body), i. e. to
have
been, as we say, duly incorporated. The persons
who
formed a collegium were called colleg? or
sodales. The
word collegium derived from con, "with", and
lego, "to
select", had the literal meaning of an
aggregation of
persons united in any office or for any common
purpose. In the later days of the Roman Republic
corporation was used in documents relating to
public
law in the same sense as collegium. The word
societas
seems to have been used as a term corresponding
to our
word partnership. A collegium possessed the legal
right of holding property in common. Its members
had a
common treasury and could sue and be sued by
their
syndicus or actor. According to the Roman law,
that
which was due to the collegium was not due to
individuals composing it; that which was an
indebtedness of the collegium was not the debt of
individuals. The property of the collegium was
liable
to be seized and sold for its debts. The term
universitas is used by the Roman law writers in
the
same sense as collegium. The application of
universitas to an academic or literary
institution is
first found in a Decretal of one of the popes
establishing a medieval university for the
teaching of
religion, literature, science, and the arts. A
collegium or universitas was, under the Roman
law,
managed by its officers and agents under
regulations
established by the corporate body itself, and
these
regulations might be such as were agreed upon by
the
members, subject only to the limitation that they
were
not contrary to the public law.

A lawfully constituted collegium was termed
legitimum.
Associations attempting to act as a collegium,
when
not duly authorized, were called collegia
illicita. It
seems that no particular Roman law defined the
mode in
which collegia were regularly to be formed. They
appear to have been formed by the voluntary
association of individuals according to some
general
legal authority. Some of these ancient Roman
corporations resembled the guilds of medieval
times,
such as the collegia fabrorum, collegia pistorum,
etc.; others were of a religious nature such as
the
collegia pontificum, augurum. According to Ulpian
a
universitas, though reduced to a single member,
was
still considered a universitas; for the remaining
member thereof possessed all the rights and
privileges
of the universitas, and used the name by which it
was
originally known. When a new member was taken
into a
collegium, he was said co-optari, and the members
of
an association into which he was introduced were
said,
with respect to him, recipere in collegium. The
chief
public corporation of ancient Rome was the
municipium.
Municipia possessed all of the characteristic
powers
of ordinary corporations together with the right
of
local government. It is stated by Plutarch that
corporations were introduced into the Roman
system of
legislation by Numa. That sovereign, upon his
accession to the throne, noted that great public
disorder existed in the city of Rome by reason of
the
contentions between the rival factions of Sabines
and
Romans; and for the purpose of protecting the
State
against tumult, divided each of these factions
into
many smaller ones by creating collegia for each
of the
professions and for each of the manual
occupations.
-------------------------------------------------------

Lucius Quintius Constantius (Lacus Magni)




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Thanks for the reference material Lucius.
I would like to check them out at some time.
I am reading the Dead Sea Scrolls translation but find it not too
entertaining though very informative.
There are many parrallels to Jesus but it isn't certain they are
speaking of him personally.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Another book that deals with this subject is Hiram Key: Pharaohs,
> Freemasons, and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus, by
> Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas. I cannot vouch for its
> scholarship however, since I haven't read it yet (will probably
pick
> up a copy at the local library tonight). But here's the Amazon
link
> for those that are so inclined:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
> /1931412758/qid=1056405424/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8380928-8303342?
> v=glance&s=books
>
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius

Great Quote L. Sicinus, I have to write that one down, lol.
By the by,
Trying to display superiority kind of negates the fact of being
superior, no?
Superiority is gauged and reflected in a person, it doesn't need to
be displayed; it will be sensed.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:

> Some people value content, others are more shallow and
> can't see past style.
>
> "I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a word
> one way"
> Mark Twain
>
> --- M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@b...>
> wrote:
> > Quintus,
> >
> > There is a difference between shorthand and
> > illiteracy :-)
> >
> > As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of
> > "intellectuals" was ironic. But was
> > disappointed to find it wasn't.
> >
> > M Flavius Aurelius
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
> > <mjk@d...>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor
> > spelling
> >
> >
> > > > I would also suggest that posters to this list
> > who wish to display
> > > their
> > > > superiority over other posters try learning to
> > spell. At one stage,
> > > someone
> > > > managed to attempt to insult others on the list
> > by calling them
> > > > "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word
> > was appalling. I
> > > personally
> > > > reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling,
> > but found later I
> > > was wrong.
> > > > There is nothing that destroys one's credibility
> > in a debate that
> > > > demonstrating that one is illiterate.
> > > >
> > > > M Flavius Aurelius
> > > >
>SNIP

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
> working with you and our compatriots to further the
> cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
> Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!

I'm glad to have you on board....you'll be an asset to the provincial team.

> Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
> who shouldn't, and which one...

As a legate, you should swear the standard oath as required of a magistrate.

Bene vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:

>
> If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it
> that a system which is quite likely to deprive many
> citizens of their chance to vote at all can produce an
> accurate reflection of the will of the voters?

The only way a the Iulian proposal deprives a citizen of the chance
to vote is if the individual citizen does not make the effort to
vote. The State offers the citizenry the chance to vote which is all
that it is required to do. Whether a person makes the effort to
spend a grand total of maybe 5 minutes out of the 1440 minutes in a
24 hour day is entirely up to the person. There may be cases where a
citizen here or there is completely unable to vote do to
circumstances beyond his/her control, but that could be said for ANY
electorial system. I believe that you said that since a tie
situation can occur in ANY electorial system, thus that invalidated a
tie situation as being a reasonable objection to the Fabian
Proposal. I submit by that by your own logic; that since your
objection is based on a situation that can occur in ANY electorial
system your objection is as equally invalid.

A thing that has been mentioned several times is the past is Grant
Applications. One of the items that any grant issuing agency will be
looking at is how well our system of governance conforms to the
historical model and Nova Roma's own mission statement. If I were
looking over a Nova Roman grant application and saw the Fabian
Proposal as the electorial method being employed, I would have to
sincerely question Nova Roma's adherance to its own mission
statement. However ,if I saw the Iulian Proposal as the electorial
methodology being used, there would be no reasonable doubt as to
whether Nova Roma adheres to its own mission statement at least in so
far as the electorial process is concerned.

I actually have no objection to either system, however the Iulian
Proposal is more likely to help Nova Roma eventually receive grant
monies, while the Fabian Proposal is going to hurt Nova Roma's
chances to receive grant monies. Therefore the Iulian Proposal makes
more economical sense in the long term than the Fabian.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Salve Consul,

> Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
> position as Legate in Britannia! Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus I
> also offer You congratulations for getting such a good and competent
> Legatus and assistant!

If he dedicates a fraction of the effort to provincia Britannia as he does
to doggedly defending the Fabian electoral reform proposal then we shall be
the busiest of provinces within months ;-)

Seriously, it is a pleasure to have him and I very much look forward to
working with him to further revive our provincia.

> Hereby I wish Provincia Britannia a good summer and a bright future
> in Nova Roma! ;-)

For that I am most grateful, amice. Thank you.

Bene vale,

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.

Lucius Equitius Quiritibus SPD

. Apollonius Cordus to C. Iulius Scaurus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> the sketch of a voting system which would closely
> approximate that of the historical
> Comitia Centuriata given the exigencies of the
> internet which I appended to my discussion of the
> historicity of the proposed Lex Fabia

<SNIP>
The Centuriate Assembly is currently and would, under
the Fabian system, remain skewed in favour of the
first two classes. This is achieved by placing
citizens with more century points into smaller
centuries, in which they therefore have greater power
to influence the vote of their century, because their
vote is less diluted than those of citizens with fewer
century points, who are placed in larger centuries.

L Equitius: You know, I've considered this in the past and I've questions. Since 'century points' are allotted for 'involvement' within Nova Roma and those most involved are placed into centuries together do they not 'cancel' each other? Also, (I'm not prone to lengthy posts) those who are in "lower" centuries more likely to be the only voter (especially a new citizen), or one of the few who actually vote, thus it may be they who actually have greater power for their vote. Were all citizens equally likely to vote this would not be the case, but considering the low voter turnout in every call to vote I believe this is a very real possibility.
Does anyone else think this may be true, and if so, what can/should be done?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes! Many of you have asked me if there
exists a website for Italy's foremost Roman Pagan
group known as the MTR (Movimento Tradizionale
Romano/Traditional Roman Movement)! Yes, you can
locate it at the website for their official review
magazine called "La Cittadella" at
http://www.lacittadella-mtr.com For those of you
who can read some Italian you should find this most
interesting! I would also like to point out due to
some comments I have read from a Nova Roma citizen
that the rites as used by the MTR, many of which I
myself passed on to Nova Roma are indeed "authentic!"
Many of which have been reconstructed from scholarly
sources and inline and according to the traditional
Roman Mos Maiorum! Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS
IVLIANVS, PGI, Flamen Florealis, Sac. Nat.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Salve consobrine Galerii, and thank you for the compliment.

I am afraid not many people are paying attention anylonger,
and I suspect aside from my own family and some friends nobody
read my post, and that goes for most in the list, and how can one blame
anybody. Did you see how many "messages" we had yesterday.
I counted 125. I had a day off and couldn't keep up with it, and
thank heavens and internet engineers for the delete button. And
here I protest to the moderators. This is a massage board and not
a chat room, and to those who'd disagree, don't be too sure, as some
of you have interesting and intelligent things to say and you will
not be heard because you will be drowned in the chat.

As to the proposal, it is necessary that we have new election laws. The
one we have does not work regardless of what anybody
says. 5 runnoffs and no winner is an absolute failure. As you
know, less than 100 citizen voted in the runoffs, and one cannot
blame the people for that. Our elections are like a game and
that's why people don't take it seriously. But I don't think we
need to wait til the census is done to have a new election law.
We already know how many citizens we have: 219 cives (taxpayers),
and the census will count the accensi, and the accensi don't count because
they can't vote, unless I misunderstood the law.

Vale

G. Galerius Peregrinator


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
Centuriatorum
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:22:09 -0400

Salve Well said dear cousin

and now a question if I may

Is they any need to deal with this proposed lex now or can we wait until the
census is over and we have real number to deal with?

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Salvete Omnes et Tite;
Let us invite the legions to come! I for one call for an invasion.
Valete
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@l...>
wrote:

> Salvete Omnes; Salvete Urania Calidia, Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi,
> Tite Octavi, et Gai Porsenni,
>
> This is Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
> citizen of Nova Roma. It is brilliant to note that, instead of

being

> a lone Nova Roman isolated on this dark isle, there is actually a
> colony of us. Hopefully, we will be more successful in spreading

the

> Via Romana to the barbarians than were the courageous but

unfortunate

> Romans in that one brief outpost on our shore many centuries

before.

> This time, I pray, the indigenous Celts will welcome our superior
> civilisation.
>
> (If not, well, then, we will conquer them.)
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Maxentius Verus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>

wrote:

> > Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi,

Tite

> > Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
> >
> > In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> > joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start

of

> > the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> > friendship!
> > Valete,
> > Urania Calidia Antonina
> >
> > n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > --- me-in-@... escreveu: > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> > >
> > >
> > > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > > Hibernia:
> > >
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> > >
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale
> > > Marcus Arminius
> > >
> > >
> >
>

______________________________________________________________________

> > _
> > > Yahoo! Mail
> > > Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> > antivírus, proteção contra spam.
> > > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/

Congratulations Honorable Consul.

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet et consulus?
Is that a scroll in your toga, or are you just happy be Consul?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> Salve Amice!
>
> Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
> position as Legate in Britannia! Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus I
> also offer You congratulations for getting such a good and

competent

> Legatus and assistant!
>
> Hereby I wish Provincia Britannia a good summer and a bright future
> in Nova Roma! ;-)
>
> >A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
> >all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
> >
> >> I. Citizen Aulus Apollonius Cordus is hereby
> >> appointed legatus of regio Britannia Inferior.
> >
> >I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
> >working with you and our compatriots to further the
> >cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
> >Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!
> >
> >Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
> >who shouldn't, and which one...
> >
> >Again, many thanks,
> >
> >Cordus
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Senior Consul et Senator
> Propraetor Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Cohors Consulis CFQ
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salvete Omnes et Hiberni,

I noticed that the Province of Britannia comprises England, Wales,
Scotland, and Northern Ireland; Gallia comprises France, Belgium, and
the Netherlands; and Germania includes Switzerland and Austria as
well as Germany.

Would it not then be logical for Hibernia to become part of the Roman
province of Britannia? One can argue that the original provinces are
supposed to somewhat resemble the original provinces of Rome or be
super-Roman provinces that include as subprovinces original Roman
Provinces (for example, Helvetia being included as part of Germania);
and, thus, because Hibernia was not part of Rome, it cannot be
included in Britannia. But most of Scotland was not part of the
Roman Province of Britannia, nor was Northern Ireland; yet they are
both included in the Nova Roman province of Britannia. So, if both
Scotland and Northern Ireland are included in Britannia, why not
Hibernia?

And, if for various reasons, including Hibernian sensitivites due to
some of the events of more recent centuries, Hiberni do not want to
be part of Britannia, then should Northern Ireland not be included as
part of Hibernia instead of being part of Britannia?

Valete,

Titus

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius;

Yes, there are some Christians here. My apologies for coming late on
the scene but I am "wading" through some 500 messages which deluged me
during my trip North.

Yes there are Chistians here, as I have said, but that does not mean in
my view, that I cannot be historically interested in Mythracism or in
any other religion. Just that I do not have to embrace tem if I respect
them.

I am willing to listen to "stories" of the conversion of Mythracism to
Christianity. I am not so foolish as to believe that the conversion did
not cost much in human suffering. A study of the Spanish Inquisition or
the Crusaders entrance into Jerusalem will certainly confirm that as
well as a thousand other totally brutal and senseless occurances in the
name of religion.

However, as others have said, I am unwilling to listen to a criticism of
my beliefs. I honor all for thier true beliefs and feelings until it
begins to impinge upon my own. As someone has said on this list the
line between historical recall and religious criticism is a knifeedge to
tred.

I am interested in Mythracism, and would like to know more about it. I
have carefully saved the weblinks furnished by the posters regarding the
study subject, and I intend to study them closely. Further, I should
like to have a list of three references for a Mythracism beginner which
will lead me to a further level of understanding.

One of my best friends in NR is a Bhuddist (sp??) and another is a
Pagan. I am familiar with both religions and I appreciate greatly the
beauty of the rites therein. However, in my personal world, I must take
a different road, for my religious needs.

I welcome your historical efforts in this and other areas, but I would
ask that your historical reviews would be couched in a language that was
not critical to my beliefs, In that way, I believe that we can share
the wealth of our historical knowledge in a fiendly and amicable way.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Lucius Equitius <vergil@...> writes:

[concerning membership in the centuries]

> You know, I've considered this in the past and I've questions.
> Since 'century points' are allotted for 'involvement' within Nova Roma and
> those most involved are placed into centuries together do they not 'cancel'
> each other?

If that were the case, then yes, they would. But if you look at
the actual centuries you'll see that each one contains a range of
the active citizens (except for the last century, with all of the
inactive in it.)

For example, if we examine the 1st century as it is currently
configured:

http://novaroma.org/bin/view/century?century=1

You're the first person in the first century, with your
truly amazing 186 century points. Second comes Titus
Horatius Atticus, with 45 century points. Then there's
Gnaeus Salix Galaicus with 35 century points, Lentulus
Cornelius Drusus with 30 points, and finally Ianus
Minicius Sparsus with 20 points. You're all Assidui,
but there's a range of accumulated century points there
in the first century.

You can examine the other centuries and you'll see the
same thing. Each of the centuries of the first class
has one "heavy hitter" with a stellar amount of century
points, and then a number of other Assidui who have fewer
century points. There's no single century in which you'll
find more than one person with over 100 century points.

What this *does* mean is that each one of the "heavy
hitters" has a huge influence over which way their
own century votes. To a pretty good approximation,
each one represents a controling interest in the way
that their century's vote is cast. But none of the
people who have done the most for Nova Roma are negated
by getting placed into the same century.

> Also, (I'm not prone to lengthy posts) those who are in "lower"
> centuries more likely to be the only voter

Nope. The lower centuries have more people in them, and the
only century with inactive (non tax paying) citizens is the
very last (189th) century. It is indeed a huge thing, with
some 1026 citizens currently assigned to it. But in the
Centuriate elections those 1026 folks get exactly one vote,
assuming any of them do vote.

-- Marinus

In a message dated 6/24/03 9:49:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@... writes:

> I don't have the OCD at hand, but we are not Ancient Romans speaking
> Latin with its original meanings. On this list, the common language is
> English, and the meanings in common usage are the modern ones.
>

Q Fabius Maximus
Salvete

Boy you are nimble! You must be a politico. That was an answer to an
interviewer. But, the fact still remains. You and your friends are the faction in
power at this current time. Deny it all you wish. We are being Roman, so we
follow Roman precepts, not modern ones. Otherwise why are we even here?

Valete


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A correction to what I just posted.

I wrote:

> Nope. The lower centuries have more people in them, and the
> only century with inactive (non tax paying) citizens is the
> very last (89th) century.

In fact, it turns out that many of the lower centuries do
contain Capiti Censi citizens who have remained active by
voting. It's the truly inactive citizens who are placed
into the 89th century.

-- Marinus

Thanks for the information.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
wrote:

> Salvete omnes! Many of you have asked me if there
> exists a website for Italy's foremost Roman Pagan
> group known as the MTR (Movimento Tradizionale
> Romano/Traditional Roman Movement)! Yes, you can
> locate it at the website for their official review
> magazine called "La Cittadella" at
> http://www.lacittadella-mtr.com For those of you
> who can read some Italian you should find this most
> interesting! I would also like to point out due to
> some comments I have read from a Nova Roma citizen
> that the rites as used by the MTR, many of which I
> myself passed on to Nova Roma are indeed "authentic!"
> Many of which have been reconstructed from scholarly
> sources and inline and according to the traditional
> Roman Mos Maiorum! Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS
> IVLIANVS, PGI, Flamen Florealis, Sac. Nat.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

Salve Quintus

There is suprisingly little hard evidence in the way of information
regarding Roman contact with Ireland. That there was contact can be
in little doubt - we know (as you mention) that the Romans knew the
Irish both as raiders and (particularly in south west Wales)as
settlers. I wrote a few papers on related topics while at Uni (where
my studies focused on the Celts) - I'll try to dig them out when I
have more time and get what info I can for you.

Vale

Lucius Lucillus Catiline



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Salve Tite,
>
> As I mentioned to Urania the other day, that does not seem to be an
> active gens. Hopefully the'rll be some shuffling and rearranging of
> gens after the census.
>
> As for history, Rome knew of Hibernia and traded with the natives.
> There was a plan to invade Hibernia; Agricola thought he could do

it

> with 1 or 2 legions but other problems came up and the plan was
> shelved indefinitely. A few Irish chietains sought sanctuary in

Roman

> Britain after losing internal quarrels in Hibernia. Anyway based on
> that little history, I'm sure some Roman traders, scouts or

diplomats

> got over there. If anyone has more information on Hibernia and Rome
> we'd love to know!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus
>

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS TRIBVNO DIANAE MORAVIAE AVENTINAE S.P.D.

Salve Diana,

Your kind regards are much appreciated, as are those of my friend
and colleague QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS. Yes time is indeed, a great
healer!

But how remiss of me! I see that belated congratulations are in
order, as I am delighted to note that you now hold the noble office
of TRIBVNVS PLEBIS.

I would ascribe particular value and importance to this office, as a
vital check and balance on our republican system of government, the
prudent use of INTERCESSIO is an important protection of the
people. Indeed, as you may know, I took the COGNOMEN 'GRACCHVS' in
honour of the famous GRACCHI brothers , particularly Ti. SEMPRONIVS
GRACCHVS.

But enough of politics! Diana, I should like to wish you every
success during your tenure as Tribune of the People. As VESTA, the
PENATES and LARES are with you in the home, so may great IVPPITER
aid you in public life.

I know this appointment means a heavy workload, and a lot of
learning , particularly of the LEGES but I know that you shall
approach it diligently and with professionalism, for the people of
Rome. The main thing though is to enjoy it!!

Talk to you soon,

Vale,


M. CALIDIVS GRACHHVS

TERRARVM DEA GENTIVMQVE ROMA CVI PAR EST NIHIL ET NIHIL SECVNDVM

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:

> Salve Marcus Calidius Gracchus!
>
> < May I also send my greetings to DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA for a
> < kindness that she showed me some time ago - Diana , you were

right

> < VENVS has smiled upon me!
>
> It's great to see you back! And I am *really* glad that things

are going

> well for you :-)
>
> Vale and talk to you again soon!
> Diana Moravia
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hail Marcus,
Of course, a fair request.
If my comments about the church as an organization were taken
personally, my apologies; that didn't mean to say that the people who
follow that church are likewise of the same ilk and again, I was
unaware of any Nova Roma members who followed.
Xian bashing, while not proper, among a Pagan community is not
frowned upon either. Many Pagans still feel the hurt done them in
the past and continue to receive at the hands of the Organizations
but I hold no individual accountable for those crimes. Again, my
apologies.

I will provide whatever information I can to help in your research.
To many Westerners, a Buddhist is also a Pagan or Heathen, lol, but
not to me.
Just some information about myself to help you understand where I am
coming from:
I am Pagan though I was raised in the beginning (13 years)to be
catholic and I thank them for a firm belief in religion and the
concept of a Divine force in the Universe though because of that
upbringing and the certain truths I later learned from them, I
decided to leave them (more than 27 years ago).

As I said, I am by my definition Pagan but to explain:
I am Taoist and Strega (from Stregheria) and respect all the Eastern
Philosophies.
"Stregheria" or "The Old Religion", "La Vecchia", "La Vecchia
Religione" of Italy first began to form around the beliefs of early,
pre-Etruscan Italians. The mystery teachings and the magickal
practices were further developed and refined by the Etruscans, who
appeared in Italy around 1000 B.C.E., establishing the great Etruscan
Empire. The Etruscans were known historically for their great
magickal and mystical knowledge. With the rise of the Roman Empire,
other factors began to influence Italian religion.
Many Italians have Strega traditions in their families without even
knowing it. The way that most people don't know that December 25th
is the birthdate of Mithras and not Jesus.
Stregheria and Taoism are very complimentary in that one fulfills
philosophical, mind, body and spirit aspects and the other handles
holidays, Dieties and traditions.

Hope that wasn't too long winded but it can explain much between us.
As to Mithras:
Any search engine on the words Mithras, Mithraism, Albigensian will
reveal much information. The Albigensians came from Mithras
worshippers and were named for the area in Southern France where they
moved from Spain - known as the Cathars. They were nearly totally
destroyed (burned and tortured to death) by order of Pope Innocent
III, concerned with the growing influence of Catharism, and saw that
it threatened the authority of the Church as heresy - so began that
Crusade.
See:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/
http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/albigens
http://www.ku.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Period
s/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY5.TXT

Please let me know Publicly or Privately what you think about the
material.
We can discusses like two Roman citizens who have neither political
nor religious predispositions if you'd like; as a hypothetical or
research topic?

I come in after the weekend to find what I thought was a deluge, I
can't imagine what it would be like after a week.
Hope you had a prosperous trip.


SNIP
.> Yes, there are some Christians here. My apologies for coming late
on

> the scene but I am "wading" through some 500 messages which deluged

me

> during my trip North.
>
>SNIP

Salve

> Ouch! Have a pinch of snuff, Diana. :)

I'm really not sure I should be doing this, but as its
in reply to one of my posts would you mind explaining
exactly what you mean?

Decimus Iunius Silanus

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Sp. Postumius Aulo Apollonio Cordo Legato S.P.D.

Salve,

> Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
> who shouldn't, and which one...

Yes there is. You are not an apparitor per the description in the Lex Vedia Apparitoria, therefore, you would be required to take the oath outlined in the Lex Iunia Iusiurando.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus

Salvete,

--- Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@...>
escreveu: > Salvete Omnes et Hiberni,

>
> I noticed that the Province of Britannia comprises
> England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland; [..]
> Would it not then be logical for Hibernia to become
> part of the Roman province of Britannia? One can
> argue that [..]

M.Arminius: To say the truth, the NR documents that
mention the frontiers of Britannia are long time lost.
That is, we dont have anything that says exactly what
are the frontiers of half of our provinces, and our
Gubernatores generally follow the common sense. For
example, Alasca, Puerto Rico, Hawaii normally are
unofficially included in the nearest US province.

[..] So, if both

> Scotland and Northern Ireland are included in
> Britannia, why not Hibernia?

M.Arminius: For me, since the Hibernian cives prefer
to be included in Britannia, is a good idea! If it is
practical, both for Britannia and Hibernia, lets to
create a Provincia Britannia et Hibernia.

> And, if for various reasons, including Hibernian
> sensitivites due to some of the events of more
> recent centuries, Hiberni do not want to be part
> of Britannia, then should Northern Ireland not be
> included as part of Hibernia instead of being part
> of Britannia?

M.Arminius: Yes, there is another possibility. The
Senate of Nova Roma can create a Province Hibernia,
and since there are an assidui there, he can be the
first Propraetor. My suggestion is that the Hibernian
cives organizes themselves a bit, and send a petition
to our Senate and Consules.

> Valete,
> Titus

Valete
Marcus Arminius
Senator, Propraetor Brasiliae


_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antivírus, proteção contra spam.
http://br.mail.yahoo.com/

Master Paulinus;

I am what my wife likes to call a " joiner." I have been pleased over
the years to join many organizations and they all demonstrate the resuls
that you mention. A few do the work and the rest excuse themselves. I
do not argue with the reasons, as I cannot, and as you say without the
numbers what use is the organization??

In answer to your question, it is my beief that if and when Nova Romans
get together the same thing will occur for a variety of reasons
--Health, Family, Vocation being the most valid ones.

I now belong to a grtoup which like NR s spread around a large area.
However, most of these people are just as interested as am in what we
do (Reenactment). They share equally in what needs o be done, they
routinely are aware and approving of letting a person do what he / she
can do, and after a few years together we have all grown to depend upon
one another.

Eventually in my view, NR will be like that as well. We already have a
core of very interested citizes who show up at the various events around
the globe, and more and more those people are working together. Thoe
who are interested find something (????) for them i the rganization and
the people and the commitment. Others do not , and leave fr a great
variety of reasons, many of which relate to an imperfect undrstanding of
the world around them, or from actions or comments of a few seeming to
stem from the organization as a whole.

I feel good about my part in NR, bcause those around me are good
hard-working people, that for the most part I can trust, based on past
activities and mutual support / agreement and although there are some
aspects which in my view need work, we progress. It takes years to
establish a trust in your comrades, and even longer when you
fave-to-face meetings which are further apart than a regular local
involvement.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

salvete Scaure et omnes,

A word of admiration first to Iulius Scaurus and his enlightened posts :
Thank you.

I have however a couple of points I would like to raise on the sketched
election law you offered us. I am not (yet ;-)) an expert on Roman history
so please forgive (and correct)any inaccuracies.

1. If I am not mistaken century affiliation was granted by the censores
according to your wealth, the richer got to the centuries in the first class
and so on...Your proposal mentioned that wealth of Antiqua, as it is in the
present system, should be represented by our NR century points. I have had
so far no problem with that because even with little points I could still
get a vote (minute but still one...) who represented my worthiness in the
system and even aknowledged whether I paid my taxes or not.
Now, should your proposal be approved tomorrow and passed as law, does that
mean that the censores will organise the citizens in the 5 classes system ?
It will surely result in concentrating in the first 2 classes all public
officers who have (rightly I must point out) accumulated century points for
their dedicated service to the Republic over the years. It would also create
an ad hoc situation where the effective voting power remains with the same
small number of people (but that's the point, isn'it?).
In fact, I have no problem in rewarding public service. But century points
rewards almost nothing else but political activity. Indeed does "the wealth"
of our republic lay only in political achievements ? Senator Q. Fabius
Maximus expressed his concerns about why we are here and how we can all feel
part of something greater than the sum of its individuals : I share his view
on this particular point and in my mind personal dedication to the
romanitas, as it enriches the individual and therefore the republic, should
also be rewarded. The real strengh of NR is its people, its wealth is the
kowledge they acquired and transmit. Does that go rewarded ? shamefully not.
I would very much like to see that century points are awarded also to people
who actively study latin and the like, who organise meetings, historical
events etc.
If you based the proposed election law only on points awarded for political
service, I fear that NR will soon be nothing more than a competitive role
playing game.
***Let me clarify before I get tons of mail that I am all in favour of
points for service but would ALSO like to see some form of other
recognition******

2. On another point, Iulius Scaurus mentioned that his proposal will be
likely to re-enact the balance of power between the tribal assembly and the
senate. Indeed, for the reasons I have explained above, we are likely to
create de facto a self replicating senatorial pool from the 1st and 2nd
classes against a mob who could hardly aspire to any office without prior
approval from the resulting reigning oligarchy. As historical accuracy goes,
the first born of a "very" rich family could enter the senate and be
classified in the first class only because daddy owned a lot of land. the
adequation between century points and money here doesn't stand.
As for the tribunal organisation, it was my understanding that it arised
from the conflict of orders and the organisation of the plebs into a working
political force, nonne? The proposed system will surely see patricians with
little or no points relegated to the 4th or 5th class and not being able to
vote for Tribuni ! If centuriate vote stops at the 3 rd class, they lose on
both counts ! The project offered will very likely undermine any notion of
patrician / plebeian status (but perhapd it will redefine it !)

3. As a final point I find Scaurus' proposal commendable, clever and
intelligent. It could and can work should we choose to use it. But it will
also certainly create a new state of affairs with a "new nobilitas" and its
corresponding "plebs" where patrician and plebeian names mean little. Any
new idea to adopt laws promoting one aspect to be closer to ways of ancient
rome will undoubtebly result in creating a new field where accuracy will
suffer. For that matter I thought that censores where originally elected
every 5 years. We have one now elected every year for a 2 year mandate so we
can cope with modern imperatives. Examples of this type are many in NR and
perfectly natural and understandable. In such a light do we really need such
an election law in the 21st century to promote the spirit of the romanitas?
I thought the lex Vedia was a good compromise.


For those of you who have read so far, thank you. I hope this interesting
discussion will continue for a while for I find the underlying matter
challenging : How would have Rome evolved in our modern world ? Can we
emulate the romanitas without recreating every single piece of legislation ?

Many thanks and take care

Corn. Moravius Laureatus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"

Salve Aulus Apollonius Cordus

I hit the send button before I remember to add my congratulations on
your posting as Legate in Britania. My apologies for that
oversight.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
<gaiusgalerius@h...> wrote:

> Salve consobrine Galerii, and thank you for the compliment.
>
> I am afraid not many people are paying attention anylonger,
> and I suspect aside from my own family and some friends nobody
> read my post, and that goes for most in the list, and how can one

blame

> anybody. Did you see how many "messages" we had yesterday.
> I counted 125. I had a day off and couldn't keep up with it, and
> thank heavens and internet engineers for the delete button. And
> here I protest to the moderators. This is a massage board and not
> a chat room, and to those who'd disagree, don't be too sure, as some
> of you have interesting and intelligent things to say and you will
> not be heard because you will be drowned in the chat.
>
> Salvete Galerii et omnes,

I understand your point Galerii. I'm sure all of us had some of our
postings missed with all the barrage of mail. I had a few private
questions from some new potential Nova Romans and my question as to
why we can't use the "chat" here on this list under home/message/post
has not been addressed. The forumromanum chat is a valiant effort but
it is way too slow when compared with MSN chat etc that I use with
some of our citizens. So once again, why not use the yahoo chat on
this list?

All I can say about the postings here is "thems the breaks!" This is
the busiest I've seen the group for a while and everyone seems to be
having a great time over the last few days even if there is
disagreement on things. I belong to other non- Roman groups and you
are at first lucky to see 1 - 5 emails a day. This is pretty boring
so I as well as others cut back our visits to once a week; again less
mail; once a month; again less interest or mail; every few months and
eventually - poof! List all gone. No more interest.


Any suggestions on what to do about this? I can see busy traffic is
frustrating but if the moderators refuse to post our reasonable and
unoffensive letters they will find themselves unemployed moderators
becaus there shall be little or no citizens left to post.


Regards


Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Salve Luci,

Thank you for your reply on Ireland. I look forward to your
information in the future.

Erin go bragh!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lucius_lucillus_catiline"
<graymouser01@a...> wrote:

> Salve Quintus
>
> There is suprisingly little hard evidence in the way of information
> regarding Roman contact with Ireland. That there was contact can be
> in little doubt - we know (as you mention) that the Romans knew the
> Irish both as raiders and (particularly in south west Wales)as
> settlers. I wrote a few papers on related topics while at Uni

(where

> my studies focused on the Celts) - I'll try to dig them out when I
> have more time and get what info I can for you.
>
> Vale
>
> Lucius Lucillus Catiline
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve Tite,
> >
> > As I mentioned to Urania the other day, that does not seem to be

an

> > active gens. Hopefully the'rll be some shuffling and rearranging

of

> > gens after the census.
> >
> > As for history, Rome knew of Hibernia and traded with the

natives.

> > There was a plan to invade Hibernia; Agricola thought he could do
> it
> > with 1 or 2 legions but other problems came up and the plan was
> > shelved indefinitely. A few Irish chietains sought sanctuary in
> Roman
> > Britain after losing internal quarrels in Hibernia. Anyway based

on

> > that little history, I'm sure some Roman traders, scouts or
> diplomats
> > got over there. If anyone has more information on Hibernia and

Rome

> > we'd love to know!
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus
> >

Master Belisarius;

Well, in reading over my last message to you, actually I should have, I
suppose, sent it not specifically to you but rather to the List. I have
been making a series of mistakes of late. It must be related to the
intake of Peach Wine to date (Gin!!!!!!!!!).

However, you have apologized, which was not required, but was
appreciated. An exchange of background seems only fair. I was raised a
Christain Scientist as a young man. I too was taught the value the
religious experience, and have cherished that belief even though over
the years, the belief has within me searched for something believable.

My father was a Southern Baptist and my Mother a Christian Scientist.
Unfortunately, she did not have the determination that the S.C. requires
to believe that." illness is just a figment of the imagination," as my
grandmother usd to say. She died for her beliefs when my father was no
longer alive to take her to a doctor over her objections. You can
imagine how that shook an already unsteady belief in my own mind.

In searching for a replacement, I have been subjected to several
"Militant Christain Characters" whom I have dismissed (some physically)
from consideration, before becoming interested in Buhuddist beliefs,
then looked carefully into Catholic, Mormon, Islamic and Jewish beliefs,
as well. In each one of these I tried to become one with the beliefs,
but it didn't feel right, so I moved on. I finally settled on a kind of
generalized personalized arangement with the "Man Upstairs" (very
similar to the arrangement that I had with my last Commander, with whom
I would have trusted my wife, wallet and dog) in my periodic walks in
the woods behind my house. I am Christain, though not through Church
Dctrine, but rather as a sense of having "arrived" at a place that is
right for me. I am a retired Navy Chief Warrant Officer who spent 20
years in the U.S. Submarine Force. After that, I spent 20 years in the
design of submarines as a Supervisor of fleet changes to the TRIDENT
submarine system. So I have some background in both taking orders and
giving them, as well as a healthy respect for the old saing that "God
helps those who help themselves."

In Nova Roma, I am little more than a student. I came here to learn
about Romans, because I like the Roman stories. I have been greatly
honored in NR (probably far beyond my deserving) and now devote my
attentions to a few tasks which I have the time to handle. Every now
and then, I tell a story of my own which is usually not very good, but
somehow it relieves me of a certain undefinable stress to do so.

So much for an exchange of background. I was not put off by your
stories, at all, but there probably are other ways to tell the stories
to make them a little less pierching. I understand that you did not
know there were others here not Pagans. Not a problem, let us go from
here. My thanks for your references, and also my thanks for your effort
to pass on informatin regarding Mithracism. I find it of significant
value.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Salve Scaevola,

<Whoa, whoa - wind down the rhetoric machine, please. I wasn't accusing
<you of slandering anyone, or trying to get anyone confused; what I said,
<since it obviously was not clear to you, is that the meaning of
<"faction" is not what you think it is, at least not in common usage, and
<I disagree with your application of the term. Is that any clearer?

Yes, perfectly clar now. Thanks!

<Yup. I think that mine represents the more common perception of the
<term;
Yes, it does seem that everyone has a different dictionary than I do...
That's the problem of living in a foreign country ya' know.

<I think you know that if I wanted to be
<disparaging of you or was trying to say that you slandered someone, I
<would make it clear as day and leave no doubt whatsoever. <wink>
I feel much better now. I think.

snipped from your email to G Iulius Scaurus:
<The Boni are a faction here, because they distinguish themselves by
<their political "colors" -

Just curious: a faction according to the definition that I found in the
dictionary or the one that you found in the dictionary? :-p

Vale,
Diana Moravia

Salve M Flavius Aurelius,

<What's wrong with citizens
<who sign up, then find NR does not deliver what they were seeking, and so
<they wander away.

Nothing really, except that they should tell someone that they are wandering
away. We have citizens come in, start a new gens because they don't want to
join someone else's, admit new citizens to their gens and then wander off
never to be heard from again. This leaves the rest of the Gens in limbo with
new people applying for citizenship and not getting a reply. The good news
is this problem will be solved by the census.

<If this happens, it says to me there is something lacking in Nova Roma, not
<with the citizenship base....

I don't know about that. There are many of us who find Nova Roma great. I
wonder what those who wander off expected. And also, if they are unhappy
immediately and then disappear, this *probably* means that they became a
citizen before they even signed up for this mailing list in order to see
what it is really like.

Vale,
Diana Moravia

I tend to agree with Diana. I am not sure that Nova Roma is directly at
fault with the majority of those who leave. There is certainly enough
evidence that insensitive insulting comments directed at new people were
enough to dislodge a number in the past.

Certainly there is much about NR to improve, however, there is so much
more here to enjoy. Diana's comment, "What did they expect??" and
Fabius's comment about NR not being created to "entertain" people rings
very true. A prudent person normally makes some kind of determination
before committing oneself with any degree of thought to any institution.

However, in my view the simplicity of leaving any commitment on the
internet is a large factor in an increasing number of "drifters" on the
internet, who have little committment to anything but thier own personal
desires, definately as I see it a "Me First" crowd.

In the early days it took me three tries to get into NR because the
person in charge of that responsibility then kept losing my
applications. I am not sure how many people we would have in NR today
if everyone had to go through that kind of entrance procedure
(Grin!!!!!!!!!).

Several people have discussed going back to the old ways of a using a
"snail mail" application. Another consideration is to base the Roman
Citizenship on service to the micronation, very much as was done in the
late Republic and Early Empire. What was it???---six years of service
in the Vigiles in order to get a Roman Citizenship, and 25 years in the
Auxila, wow, talk about a difference -- must have been political!!!

New Citizens today, have a very wide variety of areas to explore, and a
number of various weblists and Sodalitas to be involved with. Indeed
what do these "drifters" expect???

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Laureatus Armoricus <laureatusarmoricus@...> writes:

[...]

> It would also create
> an ad hoc situation where the effective voting power remains with the same
> small number of people (but that's the point, isn'it?).

As I mentioned elsewhere in my reply to Lucius Equitius, our current
system does this already. I agree with you that the Iulian model would
enhance that concentration to a significantly greater degree. (Of course
with my own rather large number of century points that would be to my
advantage. But I'm a populist at heart, and I'd really rather see
every citizen's vote count for something.)

> In fact, I have no problem in rewarding public service. But century points
> rewards almost nothing else but political activity.

You're right. This is a matter that we've discussed before, and with
some bitterness I daresay. Our current system of century points is
a compromise at best. I would personally like to see century points
also awarded for service in the sodalities, in the academia, and possibly
in the sponsored reenactment legions. But I think that the political
cost of changing the century point allocation rules is significant, and
I'm not yet ready to fight that battle.

Oh, one correction: Century points also reward service in the Religio
Romana.

[...]

> If you based the proposed election law only on points awarded for political
> service, I fear that NR will soon be nothing more than a competitive role
> playing game.

I know disaffected of citizens who think that's already the case. They
have told me so when I've spoken with them, asking why they have gone
inactive.

[...]

> For those of you who have read so far, thank you. I hope this interesting
> discussion will continue for a while for I find the underlying matter
> challenging : How would have Rome evolved in our modern world ?

Exactly. That's how I see it too. Some want to take us back to the
7th or 8th century a.u.c. I, and others including you, want to live
in Nova Roma of the 28th century a.u.c.

> Can we emulate the romanitas without recreating every single piece
> of legislation?

I think we can. Furthermore, I think we ought to.

-- Marinus

Caro Marcus,
I thank "you", I have no ego to bruise and willingly admit when I am
wrong.
Peach wine??? I make my own wine and recently fermented a chablis
grape with apricot and peach fruit - Ice wine style - which came out
fantastic - I'm ready to drink it now and haven't even aged it yet.

I can well empathize and sympathize with your past and present
especially the search for "what feels right".
Your military background is interesting too and I have learned from
Gnaeus Laterius Marinus (excuse the name, I'm sure the last part is
Marinus), another Noble Citizen and retired Marine the difference
between command and order.

The christian ethos(?) is a very beautiful attitude and belief for
Jesus Christ was a very just, honorable, loving and forgiving person
and to be like him (understanding the true him and not just what some
books tell but the whole story) is a great ideal for which to strive.
As you mentioned - Buddha and Mohammed are also great role models.
There is a sect called Jews for Jesus that is chritian but not
catholic and still follows the old testament but believes in Jesus as
well (not just the man but the messiah too).

There are many faiths and I don't yet know your feelings about
religion well enough but will gladly help you in your search (having
followed that path already). For me, I knew what I believed but
didn't know it had a name - it may be the same for you and in the
end - who cares what it is called or what others think about it?

I have always had an Eastern Mentality when dealing with things so
the Eastern Philosophies came easily of which Taoism is one but it
also has a mystical side in esoterics and alchemy.
The forces of Nature (for I certainly follow a Nature Religion) are
not persons but through Stregheria I can express as personifications
of Gods and Goddesses. It makes me wince to be called Witch but I
can not deny that Stregheria is also know as Witchcraft. So many
negative correlations to Witch even more so than Pagan least of all
is satan worshipper for we do not believe in Satan or folow evil -
just rediculous propaganda and bad press.

I would suggest a book called the path to Oriental Wisdom but I get
the feeling you are monotheistic. Buddhism is ver good too and
believe it or not - I heard the only religion still growing in
number. There are many different sects but immense dogma. Zen is
just wonderful but you don't need to be Buddhist to follow Zen either.

Get back to me with your thoughts as time permits.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, MarcusAudens@w... wrote:
> Master Belisarius;
>
> Well, in reading over my last message to you, actually I should
have, I
> suppose, sent it not specifically to you but rather to the List. I
have
> been making a series of mistakes of late. It must be related to the
> intake of Peach Wine to date (Gin!!!!!!!!!).
>
> However, you have apologized, which was not required, but was
> appreciated. An exchange of background seems only fair. I was
raised a
> Christain Scientist as a young man. I too was taught the value the
> religious experience, and have cherished that belief even though
over
> the years, the belief has within me searched for something
believable.
>
> My father was a Southern Baptist and my Mother a Christian
Scientist.
> Unfortunately, she did not have the determination that the S.C.
requires
> to believe that." illness is just a figment of the imagination," as
my
> grandmother usd to say. She died for her beliefs when my father
was no
> longer alive to take her to a doctor over her objections. You can
> imagine how that shook an already unsteady belief in my own mind.
>
> In searching for a replacement, I have been subjected to several
> "Militant Christain Characters" whom I have dismissed (some
physically)
> from consideration, before becoming interested in Buhuddist
beliefs,
> then looked carefully into Catholic, Mormon, Islamic and Jewish
beliefs,
> as well. In each one of these I tried to become one with the
beliefs,
> but it didn't feel right, so I moved on. I finally settled on a
kind of
> generalized personalized arangement with the "Man Upstairs" (very
> similar to the arrangement that I had with my last Commander, with
whom
> I would have trusted my wife, wallet and dog) in my periodic walks
in
> the woods behind my house. I am Christain, though not through
Church
> Dctrine, but rather as a sense of having "arrived" at a place that
is
> right for me. I am a retired Navy Chief Warrant Officer who spent
20
> years in the U.S. Submarine Force. After that, I spent 20 years in
the
> design of submarines as a Supervisor of fleet changes to the TRIDENT
> submarine system. So I have some background in both taking orders
and
> giving them, as well as a healthy respect for the old saing
that "God
> helps those who help themselves."
>
> In Nova Roma, I am little more than a student. I came here to learn
> about Romans, because I like the Roman stories. I have been greatly
> honored in NR (probably far beyond my deserving) and now devote my
> attentions to a few tasks which I have the time to handle. Every
now
> and then, I tell a story of my own which is usually not very good,
but
> somehow it relieves me of a certain undefinable stress to do so.
>
> So much for an exchange of background. I was not put off by your
> stories, at all, but there probably are other ways to tell the
stories
> to make them a little less pierching. I understand that you did not
> know there were others here not Pagans. Not a problem, let us go
from
> here. My thanks for your references, and also my thanks for your
effort
> to pass on informatin regarding Mithracism. I find it of
significant
> value.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills
the
> white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
> gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship
starts and
> flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and
following
> Seas!!!

Salvete

--- Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@...>
escreveu:

> Salvete Omnes et Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi,
> Tite Octavi, Tite Maxenti, Gai Porsenni, et Urania
> Calidia,
>
> I am Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of
> Hibernia and a new citizen of Nova Roma.
>
> Fellow Hibernians, I am curious: Why is that, on
> the Album Gentium, only two inhabitants of IE
> (Hibernia) are listed? I was thus under
> the impression that there was no settlement of
> Nova Roman families in Hibernia. It seems that
> the lists on the main site regarding Gens
> and Cives are not complete.

M.Arminius: Im not an Hibernian; but if i can make an
intrusion in the discussion ... :)
This is because some Hibernian cives (yes, Republic of
Eire) are inscribed in Britannia, and others no; so it

is a bit difficult to find everybody reunited.
Regarding the Gens question, the gens can be
multi-provincial. My own gens, Arminia, has citizens
of Australia, and the gens Cornelia or Octavia, for
example, includes people from USA, Europe and
elsewhere.

> It is good to know, however, that we have a
> developing Nova Roman community here, in Hibernia,
> that, together, we can bring the Via Romana to
> this dark isle, and, that, hopefully, we will
> eventually achieve provincial status.

M.Arminius: Hope so!

> Valete,
> Titus Maxentius Verus

Vale
Marcus Arminius

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-----Original Message-----
From : Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@...>
Date : 24 June 2003 16:14:01

Salve

>
>This time, I pray, the indigenous Celts will welcome our superior
>civilisation.
>
>(If not, well, then, we will conquer them.)
>

Spoken like a true Roman, civis!

Vib. Ambrosius Caesariensis


Truth hurts. Not the searching after, the running from. - John Eyberg



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites,

No the Subject line isn't a typo, it's a means of
expressing what some people's views of our seem to be.
NOVA in upper case as the "important" part, roma in
lower case as something unimportant tacked on to the
NOVA.

The roma part seems to be comming more and more
unimportant to those enthralled with the NOVA. Soon it
will be NOVA rom... Nova ro... Nova r... as more and
more of Roma gets tossed on the scrap heap.

Perhaps we should be discussing a name change along
with the other Modernisms. How about "New Republic".
It gets rid of that "outdated" Latin for a modern
language, and removes Roma from the name entirely.

We also need to remove the final sentence from the
Preamble of the Constitution. The one that reads "The
culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome." Instead of
ignoring it, it would be more honest to delete it.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Salve

> In the early days it took me three tries to get into NR because the
> person in charge of that responsibility then kept losing my
> applications. I am not sure how many people we would have in NR

today

> if everyone had to go through that kind of entrance procedure
> (Grin!!!!!!!!!).

I must confess I am a little suprised people think it is easy to gain
citizenship :)

I filled in the application form several months ago, and have since
sent an email to the Censors also, but have yet to hear any word on
my citizenship. I did in fact refrain from posting here at all for
quite some time, not having heard anything...

*wonders vaguley what the penalty is for impersonating a citizen*

:)

Lucius Lucillus Catiline

Salve Gai Iuliane;
I studied Italian in University and speak it easily as well, so
mille grazie, I will really enjoy this!
Vale,
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:

> Thanks for the information.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes! Many of you have asked me if there
> > exists a website for Italy's foremost Roman Pagan
> > group known as the MTR (Movimento Tradizionale
> > Romano/Traditional Roman Movement)! Yes, you can
> > locate it at the website for their official review
> > magazine called "La Cittadella" at
> > http://www.lacittadella-mtr.com For those of you
> > who can read some Italian you should find this most
> > interesting! I would also like to point out due to
> > some comments I have read from a Nova Roma citizen
> > that the rites as used by the MTR, many of which I
> > myself passed on to Nova Roma are indeed "authentic!"
> > Many of which have been reconstructed from scholarly
> > sources and inline and according to the traditional
> > Roman Mos Maiorum! Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS
> > IVLIANVS, PGI, Flamen Florealis, Sac. Nat.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com

A. Apollonius Cordus to D. Iunius Silanus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> The concern is not so much that certain factions

will

> be 'shut out' as you put it, but rather that one
> faction (currently yours, amice) will be able to
> 'dominate'. This will not be healthy for the future
> of Nova Roma, in my opinion.

First of all, may I seek to dispel any notion that the
Fabian system is being proposed with the conscious
intent to perpetuate the hold on power of the Consul
and his friends and allies (I know this is not what
you are suggesting, but some might infer it).

If this were the intention, there would hardly be any
need to change the current system - in the last
Consular election the candidate who tends publicly to
disagree most often with the Senior Consul was not
elected, while Fabius Quintilianus was elected with
the most centuries. On this evidence, the Consul has
no need to fear that his 'faction' will be
disadvantaged by the existing system.

> I say that you and your colleagues have not been

able

> to convince me that the Fabian system will not lead
> to such problems either. The nature of statistics is
> that we could both produce countless examples that
> could 'prove' our argument one way or another, and
> as such this is probably not the best way to
> proceed.

Well, this is not quite correct. If it is possible for
a thing to occur in a given system, this can be proven
with a single example. It is true that a finite number
of examples cannot necessarily prove that a certain
outcome is *impossible*; but anyone seeking to argue
that the Fabian system could allow a dominant faction
to succeed in gaining all the vacancies of a given
magistracy could prove the truth of such an assertion
simply by producing an example of this happening.

However, let me save you the necessity of producing
such an example by saying that one could be produced.
Yes, it is possible under the Fabian system for two
candidates who were close allies or who subscribed to
the same ideals and policies to be elected together.
This is not injustice or gerrymandering but democracy,
whose basic principle is that the government of the
state should be conducted by the person or persons who
are supported by the majority of the electorate.

If the majority of the electorate wishes a pair of
allied candidates to be elected, then this is to my
mind perfectly above board and proper. After all, it
is not as if two rival groups could not each field a
pair of candidates so that the electorate could choose
to elect, if it wished, one pair, or the other, or one
of each. In the elections at the end of the year 1998
(2751) a pair of candidates ran as a slate against
another candidate who stood alone. The lone candidate
in the event withdrew, and the slate won. There was,
to be sure, discussion of whether running as a slate
was historical or not, and some jocular talk of
'conspiracies' and such, and later on there was a
completely separate question about the legality of a
different aspect of the elections - so we can see that
people were not asleep or uncritical; but never once,
as far as I can find, was there any serious suggestion
that a cabal or faction had seized power in the state.

However, I am not completely oblivious to the
arguments against a system which operates in this way.
It is sometimes desirable not just for an elected
group or body to represent the preference of the
majority but for that group also to represent, in due
proportion, the desires of various minorities. This is
especially true of legislative bodies; our legislative
bodies, I'm glad to say, are extremely representative,
being composed of the people as a whole. I also
consider that in the case of the Tribunes, whose
function is specifically to be outside partisanship
and to care for the interests of all citizens, it is
important to have a representative selection.

I personally do not consider that proportional
representation is useful or necessary for the
magistracies elected by the Centuriate Assembly.
However, I do feel that it is a debate worth having,
and one which is particularly pertinent to we Britons
and our American cousins, since we belong to two of
the few remaining countries in the world not to use
proportional representation in electing their
legislatures. So, let us by all means have the debate;
and let us particularly inquire whether ancient Roman
elections were founded on the principle of the will of
the majority or on that of proportionality. I believe
the former; but there are others who know their
history better than I.

Cordus

=====
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In a message dated 6/24/03 2:50:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
graymouser01@... writes:

> wonders vaguley what the penalty is for impersonating a citizen*
>

Salvete
Well, you are not impersonating anybody, you are a pending citizen and
welcome to Nova Roma.
Having worked in the Censors office, I'll tell you, its a hard job and they
will accommodate you as quickly as possible.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AVETE OMNES

This is a massage board and not

> > a chat room, and to those who'd disagree, don't be too sure, as

some

> > of you have interesting and intelligent things to say and you will
> > not be heard because you will be drowned in the chat.

As I see it, this is not a message board, but rather it tries to
recreate the idea of the Forum, where people start a lot of
discussions on a lot of matters, and you can follow the one you
prefere, and ignore those you are not interested in.

On a chat this would be very difficult and, in addition, discussions
couldn't be kept in the archives, while we already experienced they
are very useful.

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor

A. Apollonius Cordus to Tribune C. Popillius Laenas
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> When I read the following, I felt I had to comment:
>
> > If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it
> > that a system which is quite likely to deprive
> > many citizens of their chance to
> > vote at all can produce an accurate reflection of
> > the will of the voters?
>
> It all depends on what one's objective is. As
> Lucius Sicinius has pointed out, the founders felt
> the objective was to recreate the Roman Republic.
> The Julian "proposal" does that, and deprives some
> citizens of their chance to vote, just as did the
> system of our ancient forebearers.

This is quite true; however, to put my question back
in context, I was querying Rogator Cassius Calvus'
statement that the Iulian system *does* produce an
accurate reflection of the will of the voters. Whether
or not the system is historical is, I think we can
agree, utterly irrelevant to the question of whether
or not it reflects the will of the voters.

When the issue of letter vs. spirit is raised with
regard to the closeness with which we should seek to
reproduce the ancient republic, it is quite common for
someone to say, 'well we don't have slavery and we
have women's suffrage, so that shows we don't have to
stick closely to the original model'. Now, usually
this sort of argument is rather spurious and
hyperbolic, for the particular aspect of
reconstruction in question is usually of nothing like
the same importance as slavery or women's suffrage.

In this case, however, I shall put forward this
dreaded argument in all seriousness. I do not suggest
that to deprive a person of his vote is as wicked as
to claim to own his very person; however, the question
of women's suffrage is very, very pertinent and
comparable.

There are few who would remain in Nova Roma if it were
to deprive women of the right to vote or to hold
office on the grounds of historical accuracy; this is
an extent to which even hardcore reconstructionists do
not seek to go. Is there much difference between
depriving someone of a vote simply because she is a
woman and depriving someone of a vote simply because
he or she is in a lower century, when this may quite
easily be for no other reason than that he or she only
gained citizenship recently or is prevented by his or
her religious principles from participating in public
life? I submit that there is little difference.

Let us not be confused: depriving the lower centuries
of their right to vote is not just an extension of the
existing system whereby the vote of a citizen in a
lower century has less weight than that of his
counterpart in a higher century. This is not a
difference of extent, but of kind. However little it
may be worth, a vote is a vote, and no vote is no
vote. Remember, our small population means that a
citizen of Nova Roma has a vote vastly more powerful
than that his or her vote in his or her 'macro'
nation.

To deprive a person of his vote is not, and should not
be, acceptable in this age. If we reject a society in
which women are forbidden to vote, we must reject any
electoral system which does not guarantee to every
citizen the single vote which gives him a stake in his
own nation.

Cordus

=====
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A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

First of all I must thank Consul Fabius Quintilianus,
Aedile Equitius Marinus and Rogator Cassius Calvus for
their congratulations. I didn't expect so soon to
become one of those people who get congratulated on
things in the public Forum by eminent citizens!

And thanks also to Governor Iunius Silanus and my
colleague Postumius Tubertus for telling me which oath
I need. Speaking of which, let me attempt to muster my
gravitas before I say...

I, A. Apollonius Cordus (J. K. Johnston), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, A. Apollonius Cordus,
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my
public and private life.

I, A. Apollonius Cordus, swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
and swear never to act in a way that would threaten
its status as the State Religion.

I, A. Apollonius Cordus, swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, A. Apollonius Cordus, further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Legate of Lower Britain (Legatus Britanniae
Inferioris)to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of Legate of Lower Britain (Legatus Britanniae
Inferioris) and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Cordus

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A. Apollonius Cordus to T. Maxentius Verus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Let me say first of all that I haven't yet consulted
my new superior, Governor Iunius Silanus of Britain,
so this is by no means an official pronouncement of
any kind, despite my recently acquired legateship.

> Would it not then be logical for Hibernia to become
> part of the Roman province of Britannia?

As a Briton, and also as half an Irishman (on my
mother's side), I wouldn't have any problem with this.
I would hope that the common Romanity of our two
islands would enable us to regain a common Britishness
long buried under Norman, Jacobean and Cromwellian
invasions, assassinations in Phoenix Park and
suchlike. It is notable in this respect that Portugese
and Spanish citizens have overcome historic tensions
to be amalgamated by their own request in the Iberian
province. I would also personally tend to support the
inclusion of Northern Ireland in the Hibernian rather
than the British province.

However, I would feel that ultimately a decision of
this kind ought not to be made without extensive
consultation with both British and Hibernian citizens,
to which end perhaps we should continue this
discussion on the BritanniaProvincia yahoogroups
e-mail list (to which, I believe, Britons, Hibernians
and citizens of other provinces are free to
subscribe).

Cordus

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A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> > If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it
> > that a system which is quite likely to deprive

many

> > citizens of their chance to vote at all can
> > produce an
> > accurate reflection of the will of the voters?
>
> The only way a the Iulian proposal deprives a
> citizen of the chance to vote is if the individual
> citizen does not make the effort to vote.

Forgive me, I have failed to make myself clear. I am
not referring to the 24-hour voting period suggested
for each century. It still seems to me rather short,
but it is a minor detail.

When I say that the Iulian system deprives a citizen
of his chance to vote, I refer to the fact that voting
ceases as soon as two candidates have received a
majority, even if not all the centuries have voted. It
is therefore possible for a voter, however much effort
he may make to cast his vote, is denied the ability to
do so, for the result of the election had already been
decided without him.

It is with this in mind that I ask whether such a
system can really be considered accurately to reflect
the will of all those who choose to vote.

Cordus

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A. Apollonius Cordus to Cornelius Moravius Laureatus
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> I would very much like to see that century points
> are awarded also to people who actively study latin
> and the like, who organise meetings, historical
> events etc.

This is a very fair point; the problem, I suppose, is
partly a practical one. It is fairly easy to measure a
person's political involvement, because involvement
tends to go with offices and vice versa. It would be
harder to find an objective measure of other
contributions. For instance, one could give a certain
number of points for organizing a meeting. But who
would know that you had organized one? And would the
same number of points be awarded for organizing an
event the size of Roman Days as for a small Roman
barbecue in one's garden?

I can see an appealing alternative along the lines of
having the Censors set up a small, impartial committee
to award century points every year for services to
Nova Roma, like the New Year's Honours List in the
U.K.; but of course this would be a lot of very
difficult work for the members of that committee, and
would unavoidably be more open to accusations of bias
or arbitrariness than a clear and objective system
like the current one.

So I'm afraid after all that I have no good
suggestion; but it is a question worth raising, and I
should be interested in discussing it further.

Cordus

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Gaivs Lanivs Falco Quiritibus S.P.D.

It is with great pleasure that I formally welcome into Gens Lania its newest
member, Aulus Lanius Cogitatus. I invite all fellow cives to wish him well
and share with him our knowledge of all things Roman.

Valete, respectfully

G. Lanivs Falco
*************************
Paterfamilias Gens Lania


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus


????


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
To: Nova Roma
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma


Salvete Quirites,

No the Subject line isn't a typo, it's a means of
expressing what some people's views of our seem to be.
NOVA in upper case as the "important" part, roma in
lower case as something unimportant tacked on to the
NOVA.

The roma part seems to be comming more and more
unimportant to those enthralled with the NOVA. Soon it
will be NOVA rom... Nova ro... Nova r... as more and
more of Roma gets tossed on the scrap heap.

Perhaps we should be discussing a name change along
with the other Modernisms. How about "New Republic".
It gets rid of that "outdated" Latin for a modern
language, and removes Roma from the name entirely.

We also need to remove the final sentence from the
Preamble of the Constitution. The one that reads "The
culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome." Instead of
ignoring it, it would be more honest to delete it.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@...>
wrote:
SNIP

>
> When I say that the Iulian system deprives a citizen
> of his chance to vote, I refer to the fact that
> voting
> ceases as soon as two candidates have received a
> majority, even if not all the centuries have voted.
> It
> is therefore possible for a voter, however much
> effort
> he may make to cast his vote, is denied the ability
> to
> do so, for the result of the election had already
> been
> decided without him.
>
> It is with this in mind that I ask whether such a
> system can really be considered accurately to
> reflect
> the will of all those who choose to vote.
>

Under our present system, and under the Fabian system
the result could also allready be decided before
everyone casts a ballot, the diference being that the
voter dosen't know this because the count hasn't been
made yet.

Some talk as if it will be the norm that the election
will soon be over. That would require that two
canidates carry the entire first and second class's
votes, a very unlikely situation. Even an extreamly
popular canidate is unlikely to elected before the
third class votes. That still leaves an open postion
for the lower classes to vote on.

In some cases the fifth class might not be called apon
to vote. Since we give century points for time as a
citizen and new citizens constantly enter, it's
unlikely that a citizen who pays his taxes will be in
the fifth class beyond his first year in Nova Roma.

It comes down to this. In some years a citizen may not
be called apon to vote the first year he is here. If
he pays his taxes it is unlikely that this will happen
a second time.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> > The only way a the Iulian proposal deprives a
> > citizen of the chance to vote is if the individual
> > citizen does not make the effort to vote.
>
> Forgive me, I have failed to make myself clear. I am
> not referring to the 24-hour voting period suggested
> for each century. It still seems to me rather short,
> but it is a minor detail.
>
> When I say that the Iulian system deprives a citizen
> of his chance to vote, I refer to the fact that voting
> ceases as soon as two candidates have received a
> majority, even if not all the centuries have voted. It
> is therefore possible for a voter, however much effort
> he may make to cast his vote, is denied the ability to
> do so, for the result of the election had already been
> decided without him.
>
> It is with this in mind that I ask whether such a
> system can really be considered accurately to reflect
> the will of all those who choose to vote.

Salve,

It will reflect the will of those who have voted. I do see your
point, but I see you snipped an important part of my posting. If I
may crib from the honorable Senator Drusus for a moment: "the final
sentence from the
Preamble of the Constitution. The one that reads "The
culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome.""

If I may have a moment to crib from myself:

"A thing that has been mentioned several times is the past is Grant
Applications. One of the items that any grant issuing agency will be
looking at is how well our system of governance conforms to the
historical model and Nova Roma's own mission statement. If I were
looking over a Nova Roman grant application and saw the Fabian
Proposal as the electorial method being employed, I would have to
sincerely question Nova Roma's adherance to its own mission
statement. However ,if I saw the Iulian Proposal as the electorial
methodology being used, there would be no reasonable doubt as to
whether Nova Roma adheres to its own mission statement at least in so
far as the electorial process is concerned."

I again ask, if you were given the task to review a grant application
filed by Nova Roma and looking over the documentation such as our
Constitution and the Tabularium, which Election Proposal is more in
tune with the final sentence of the Preamble of the Constitution? In
other words which Proposal if it were a Lex would demonstrate that we
not only talk the talk of Roman revival but that we also walk the
walk?

As for the slavery "boogie man," it is not germane. Whether or not
slavery is legal is under the jurisdiction of macronational
authorities. A Nova Roman who lived in a nation that permitted
slavery, for example Sudan, could own as many slaves as he or she
wished. So to say that Nova Roma does not have slavery is a
misstatement. We don't have slavery because as far as I know not one
of us Nova Romans lives in a country that permits slavery.

As for women's suffrage, that is germane as Nova Roma can control who
it permits and does not permit to vote within its organizational
structure. It is a concession to the times in which we live and if
some grant giving authority rejected a Nova Roman application based
on Nova Roma allowing women to vote and hold public office within the
organizational structure, I'd personally say to that agency "Take
your money and shove it some place where it would cause one to walk
very funny."

However at some point Nova Roma may concede so much to modernity that
it ceases to really be Roman. At that point it is no longer the
Roman State and thusly the symbiotic relationship between the State
and the Religio is broken. Without a Roman State the Religio is no
more. While I'm not a practitioner of the Religio, I'd feel really
bad for those that are since should it come to pass that The State
ceases to be Roman they will have effectively had their Religion
terminated by the "will of the people."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Salve and Welcome indeed Aulus Lanius Cogitatus.

Please take your time and walk around the Forum. You will meet a great variety of citizens and pending citizens engaged in conversations on almost any and all subjects. If you would like information on the Nova Roma newsletter, The Eagle, just pop me a note I will some the info to you before you can say:

Delenda est Carthago

again welcome and please enjoy the next 30-40 years with us.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum et Quaestor
Citizen
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: lanius117@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:26 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Newest member of Gens Lania


Gaivs Lanivs Falco Quiritibus S.P.D.

It is with great pleasure that I formally welcome into Gens Lania its newest
member, Aulus Lanius Cogitatus. I invite all fellow cives to wish him well
and share with him our knowledge of all things Roman.

Valete, respectfully

G. Lanivs Falco
*************************
Paterfamilias Gens Lania


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

For years whenever we are faced with a choice between
emulating the Romans or some other modernist choice we
have had a substanial section of our citizens sya to
hell with the Romans.

Over and over it's "We are a 21st Century
Micronation", "We are creating the Best of Rome", "It
isn't fair".

The Modernist faction seems to be determined to
eradicate as much of Roma as posible out of Nova Roma,
favoring persuing creation of some Utopia based on
ideas that have nothing to do with Roma.

I'm perplexed why someone who has so little intrest in
recreating Roma would join an organization who's
constitution clearly states

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic
and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all
manners practical and acceptable, as the modern
restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The
culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

However a great many people have joined who have
little or no intrest in this recreation. If we are
going to abbandon this goal in favor of creating some
modernist idea of a Utopia, then continuing with the
name Nova Roma is a fraud.

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:

> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
> ????
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Sicinius Drusus
> To: Nova Roma
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:43 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
>
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> No the Subject line isn't a typo, it's a means of
> expressing what some people's views of our seem to
> be.
> NOVA in upper case as the "important" part, roma
> in
> lower case as something unimportant tacked on to
> the
> NOVA.
>
> The roma part seems to be comming more and more
> unimportant to those enthralled with the NOVA.
> Soon it
> will be NOVA rom... Nova ro... Nova r... as more
> and
> more of Roma gets tossed on the scrap heap.
>
> Perhaps we should be discussing a name change
> along
> with the other Modernisms. How about "New
> Republic".
> It gets rid of that "outdated" Latin for a modern
> language, and removes Roma from the name entirely.
>
> We also need to remove the final sentence from the
> Preamble of the Constitution. The one that reads
> "The
> culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall
> be
> patterned upon those of ancient Rome." Instead of
> ignoring it, it would be more honest to delete it.
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Salvete iterum,

Lucius Equitius <vergil@s...> writes:
[concerning membership in the centuries]

> You know, I've considered this in the past and I've questions.
> Since 'century points' are allotted for 'involvement' within Nova Roma and
> those most involved are placed into centuries together do they not

'cancel'

> each other?

Marinus:
If that were the case, then yes, they would. But if you look at
the actual centuries you'll see that each one contains a range of
the active citizens (except for the last century, with all of the
inactive in it.)

For example, if we examine the 1st century as it is currently
configured:

http://novaroma.org/bin/view/century?century=1

You're the first person in the first century, with your
truly amazing 186 century points...

Gnaeus, you seem to mention this whenever we have contact, is it a
problem?
I've been active since I joined Nova Roma March 1998 (that's 50 points right
there, plus 10 for being Patrician). In fact I was the 9th person to join
Nova Roma and some of those who joined before me have 'disappeared'. We just
had the 6th Roman days, I've been at all of them, along with the Cassii,
Marcus and Patrica. I was the first non 'founder' co-opted to the Senate
(20) and the first to be elected Consul (10) after having been Praetor
Urbanus (10). I was also the first to make a real purchase using the Nova
Roma "Sestertius Signum" (0).
I perform the rites for Mars (20 Flamen Martialis +20 as Pontifex which
a Flamen Maior certainly was), as far as I'm able, on my own. In fact there
have been times in the past when I went through the Album Gentilium and
contacted every Gens that listed Mars as a 'patron deity' to see who would
be interested in beginning some sort of worship, I got replies from nearly
none and those two who did respond live far away or ended up being a student
that wanted me to do their work for them. I worked with the other Augures
(20) before they exiled themselves and I still have sporadic correspondence
with one.
After over five years of action, including the past two as Censor (10),
I've taken a lesser role. I'm still active, but I'm confident that there
are many others who are very capable of furthering our goals. Everything I
do, or have done, for Nova Roma isn't posted to this list.

Marinus:
You can examine the other centuries and you'll see the
same thing. Each of the centuries of the first class
has one "heavy hitter" with a stellar amount of century
points, and then a number of other Assidui who have fewer
century points. There's no single century in which you'll
find more than one person with over 100 century points.

L Equitius: OK... so ?

Marinus:
What this *does* mean is that each one of the "heavy
hitters" has a huge influence over which way their
own century votes.

L Equitius: Really, how is this done exactly? Each vote in a century is the
same. Mine isn't a trump on the others, not that I'd mind :-)

Marinus:
To a pretty good approximation,
each one represents a controling interest in the way
that their century's vote is cast.

L Equitius: This is simply wrong. I have no say whatsoever on how, or if,
the others vote. If one of them votes differently than me, then my vote is
negated. I would say that there is a good possibility that those who, like
me, have paid their, then they vote too.
However, if a person in a 'lower' century happens to be the only one who
bothers to vote then he has 'won' the century for his candidate, or
proposal.

Marinus:
But none of the
people who have done the most for Nova Roma are negated
by getting placed into the same century.

L Equitius: The point I was making is that those who do vote and pay their
tax are placed in the similar centuries. But, someone who joined recently,
and hasn't even necessarily paid tax, is placed in a lower century by virtue
of fewer points. These people through the novelty of their citizenship are
more likely to vote than many of their less active colleagues (yes this is
pure speculation).

> Also, (I'm not prone to lengthy posts) those who are in "lower"
> centuries more likely to be the only voter

Nope. The lower centuries have more people in them, ...,
assuming any of them do vote.

-- Marinus

L Equitius: That was my point. The lower century has more names, but that
certainly doesn't mean they vote. In fact, we can be reasonably sure most do
not vote, or pay tax, or ... anything... in Nova Roma.

Valete

Salve Laureate,

If I may, I should like to start directly with the end of what you say.

> For those of you who have read so far, thank you. I hope this interesting
> discussion will continue for a while for I find the underlying matter
> challenging : How would have Rome evolved in our modern world ? Can we
> emulate the romanitas without recreating every single piece of legislation ?

To answer your first question raised, I think we should all find ourselves greatly at a loss. We can theorize on things, but there is no way of knowing what other events would have happened within the development of Roma through time to get Her to this point, and so we cannot, in any way, begin to speculate on how our predecessors would have done things at this point. However, to answer your second question, my answer is yes. As you say, our ancestors too would have evolved to whatever point they would be in this time, and so too shall we -- I would say that this is part of the nature of time and existence. But I would add the caveat that I feel our ancestors would try to, in some small way, be similar to their ancestors, had they evolved to this time, and I feel this is what the Consul is trying to accomplish in his proposal. What we find is the compromise between modern where modern time and lifestyle, and the mos maiorum from which we strive to retain pieces. This is exactly how I percieve the Consul's proposal, on the level of historic content, and this is why, on that same level, I support it.

Vale Amice,

Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Citizen of Nova Roma

Sp. Postumius Populo Romano S.P.D.

Salvete,

> > Can we emulate the romanitas without recreating every single piece
> > of legislation?
>
> I think we can. Furthermore, I think we ought to.

To add to my previous reply to Laureatus, I have to agree here with Marinus. We ought to emualte with out recreation. The problem with recreation, at least in this organization, as I see it, is that we all have different ideas of what should be recreated, and what should be left behind. But, looking away from the Jovine side to the wreathed side of the coin, we all have different ideas of what should be emulated, and what should not, and while I doubt a compromise would ever come about, not to degrade the amicability or the rationality of our citizens, I think we could all live to respect even that which we have a distaste for, and I would further urge that it is a must for our survival.

Valete Amici,

Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Citizen of Nova Roma

Salvete Milites et Cives

Our show at the University of Calgary went off very well and many
were very pleased with the demo my small Legion was able to put on.
They have a few pics currently up on the U of C website at
http://www.ucalgary.ca just not sure for how long. Hope you enjoy
what is there as I am waiting for my copies from the show and the U
of C newspaper to send to me.

Valete
Kaeso Maximius Tiberius
Legate Legio XXI Rapax
http://www.leg-xxi.org

Salve Romans

Having taken the time to read the proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum I would like to make a few comments:

The Senior Consuls proposal is called in the macro world a preferential voting system or the Alternative Vote system.

"Countries that employ an alternative vote (also referred to as a preferential voting system or PV) require voters to rank-order their preferences on their ballots. Electors write number 1 down beside their first choice, 2 beside the second, and so on. If, when the ballots are tallied, no candidate receives an absolute majority, the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and his or her ballots are redistributed according to the second choices marked on them. This process continues until a winner emerges with more than half of the total vote. The alternative vote system has been used for elections to the Australian House of Representatives (Australia's lower house) since 1918."

I believe that with this system we will elect candidates that are in reality the third or four ( depends on number of candidates and offices to fill) choice of the electorate. I firmly believe that my behavior on election day when I am required to vote my preference for say up to five candidates would be different than it would be in a run-off with the lowest candidate dropped and a new ballot is put before me.
"An example

The table below shows a sample distribution of preferences for an electorate.

The "First Count" row shows the first preference votes for each candidate and the total number of formal first preference votes. The following rows show how preferences were distributed from defeated candidates and how those preferences affected the votes for the continuing candidates.

"Sample preference distribution for an electorate


CANDIDATES
Total




Marcus


Tiberius


Gaius


Julius


Diana


First Count - First preference votes
13,046
875
628
12,757
2,341
29,647

Distribution of ballot papers of GAIUS , first defeated candidate.
267
194
-
63
104
628

Totals after first distribution.
13,313
1,069
-
12,820
2,445
29,647

Distribution of ballot papers of TIBERIUS , second defeated candidate.
263
-
-
566
240
1,069

Totals after second distribution.
13,576
-
-
13,386
2,685
29,647

Distribution of ballot papers of DIANA, third defeated candidate.
885
-
-
1,800
-
2,685

FINAL COUNT
14,461

48.78%
-
-
15,186

51.22%
-
29,647



After the distribution of preferences, Julius is the successful candidate"

He was not the first, second or even third choice of a majority of voters

In a real Nova Roma election candidate Diana may want to throw her support toward Marcus and not Julius. By requiring a voter to select all their preferences before we know who came in first you remove the ability of candidates to endorse another candidate in a run-off election. In a run-off Diana's endorsement of Marcus might be all he need to will an absolute majority on the second ballot. We are an active community with the majority of our time together on the web. If I am candidate Diana and I came in third I MIGHT want to endorse a candidate in the next round but with this proposed Lex the second, third and ..... rounds votes have already been "cast" and an endorsement after the fact will not help.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

The Chart and the third paragraph are from VEC Home Electoral Information The chart was modified to reflect our Roman elections

http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/ElectoralInfo/WP_PreferentialVoting.htm





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

The suggestion that the system I sketched out would _substantively_
deprive any more citizens of their votes than the current system is
simply wrong. Under the current system under which elections are held
in the Comitia Centuriata all it takes to electe a censor, consul, or
praetor is a simple majority in each of the first forty-five of
eighty-nine centuries. At this time with all citizens in the first
forty-five centuries voting such a majority could consist of 170 of
1737 citizens. Under the current system the minimal election criteria
for election is the following pattern of voting for a candidate: 3
each in centuries 1-8, 4 each in centuries 9-14, 3 in century 15, 4
each in centuries 16-27, 3 in century 28, and 4 each in centuries
29-45. If only one citizen in each for the first forty-five voted,
and all voted for the same candidate, 45 votes would elect a censor,
consul, or praetor.

If the winner can be determined under the current system by 45-170
citizens, in what sense the vote of a citizen 1737 in century 89 is
anything but a symbolic gesture? Is a system in which everyone can
vote, but a majority of the smaller centuries can absolutely determine
the outcome preferrable to one in which everyone is honestly told that
the voting will stop when a majority of centuries are polled in the
fashion of Roma antiqua? Perhaps it is in terms of public relations,
but it doesn't change the underlying reality.

I have run simulations under the proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione
Comitorum Centuriatorum and the results are no different in terms of
the minimum number of voters required for a candidate to prevail.

The principal determinants of how many centuries must vote to elect a
candidate under all three systems are voter turnout in century, number
of vacancies, number of candidates, and the the cardinal value each
voter assigns a candidate in his or her preference set. None of the
three systems of vote counting reduces the minimum number of voters
necessary to elect a candidate.

If someone were to advocate abolishing the century point system and
allocating citizens equally by lot across centuries, that is a
proposal which can be straightforwardly debate and it would be much
more democratic, if entirely alien to the historical Roman model. To
suggest, however, that the historical model would produce any less
democratic a result than the current system or the senior consul's
proposal simply doesn't do the math. If I thought that the historical
model model would effectively disenfranchise more citizens than either
of the other models, I wouldn't support it.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit.

Salve. Gn. Marine.

> In fact, it turns out that many of the lower centuries do
> contain Capiti Censi citizens who have remained active by
> voting. It's the truly inactive citizens who are placed
> into the 89th century.

I certainly agree that this is so, but I'm not certain why it should
be so. Under the Lex Cornelia Octavia de Assidui et Capiti Censi all
citizens who have not paid their current taxes (including newly
enrolled citizens whose tax payments have not yet been received) are
capites censi. Under the Lex Secunda Octavia de Centuriata the
capites censi are to be assigned to one century outside the five
classes. Unless I am missing something the law mandates that there
should be no capites censi outside the eighty-ninth century. Is this
an artifact of tax payment status being entered in the Album Civium,
while reassignment to centuries on the basis of tax payment hasn't
happened because there hasn't been a contio conducted in the Comitia
Centuriata since the tay deadline has passed (i.e., the assignment to
centuries reflects the payment status of voters at the last time the
Comitia Centuriata was convened and that happened before the most
recent tax deadline)?

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salve and welcome Aule!

Welcome to the gens Lania and Nova Roma. Your entry into our gens
today was indeed a great happy surprise for me. If you need any help
or have any questions you have my email in Album gentium and on this
list. I would have posted this early so you would see it today but
alas, the gods must be punishing me today because our satellite
server was down for the count for several hours. As Quaestor Manius
Constantine Serapio mentioned on an earlier posting, this particular
list is are main forum. It is amazing what you can learn from NR by
participating on this list. Have a great time with your fellow Nova
Romans, especially with your new cousin Quintus Paulinus.

Vale bene,

Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, lanius117@a... wrote:
> Gaivs Lanivs Falco Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> It is with great pleasure that I formally welcome into Gens Lania
its newest
> member, Aulus Lanius Cogitatus. I invite all fellow cives to wish
him well
> and share with him our knowledge of all things Roman.
>
> Valete, respectfully
>
> G. Lanivs Falco
> *************************
> Paterfamilias Gens Lania
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS wrote:

>
> G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit.
>
> Salve. Gn. Marine.

Salve G. Iuli,

> > In fact, it turns out that many of the lower centuries do
> > contain Capiti Censi citizens who have remained active by
> > voting. It's the truly inactive citizens who are placed
> > into the 89th century.
>
> I certainly agree that this is so, but I'm not certain why it should
> be so.

It came as quite a surprise to me too, because like you I thought
that the law required all Capiti Censi to be in the 89th century.

> Is this
> an artifact of tax payment status being entered in the Album Civium,
> while reassignment to centuries on the basis of tax payment hasn't
> happened because there hasn't been a contio conducted in the Comitia
> Centuriata since the tay deadline has passed (i.e., the assignment to
> centuries reflects the payment status of voters at the last time the
> Comitia Centuriata was convened and that happened before the most
> recent tax deadline)?

That seems a reasonable explanation. I don't know for sure that it
is the correct one. It seems like a question for the Censors.

-- Marinus

Salve Druse,

Sorry, but I am not that clear on whether you mean our people in the
government of NR with all this discussion on the new election laws
and similar laws, the modern issues and problems drawn on to this
list off and on, or a combination of both?

In my opinion the success of Ancient Rome was due to its flexibility
in tolerating other ideas, customs, religion and cultures as well as
its own. I think we have to do this to a certain point in the modern
world as well but as you say, we cannot allow our ideals as stated
below to be put on the back burner. Hopefully this census coming up
in several months will give us a good idea who is in our out with
regards to interest and dedication to Res Republica.

Also I respectfully disagree with a few posts that say we are not
here to entertain people. Not everyone is highly self motivated.
There's no shame in that because the world needs leaders and
followers. When new people join Nova Roma which seems to be several a
month, we should find ways of stimulating their interests and leading
them in the direction of our ideals as you stated below. All you
military and ex military gentlemen should be well aware of this above
all other Nova Romans. How did you keep your units motivated and
interested? Is there anything you can suggest from your valuable past
experiences? If I want you to teach me to fly a chopper, operate a
vulcan phalnyx system or even survive in the field do you personally
teach, try and make the teaching interesting or do you give some
hands-on experience or do you just throw a complex dry written manual
in my face and say you're a college boy, figure it all out yourself.

One last thought. Some people have a hard time getting various
projects going, problems and interests addressed, approved and
completed. Sometimes it seems like there are 2 words that do not at
all exsist in NR classic Latin, modern Latin and modern
English: "TODAY" AND "NOW". Hopefully getting these cogs rolling
quickly will make for a little less apathy at times.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"

<lsicinius@y...> wrote:

> Salve Tiberi Galeri,
>
> For years whenever we are faced with a choice between
> emulating the Romans or some other modernist choice we
> have had a substanial section of our citizens sya to
> hell with the Romans.
>
> Over and over it's "We are a 21st Century
> Micronation", "We are creating the Best of Rome", "It
> isn't fair".
>
> The Modernist faction seems to be determined to
> eradicate as much of Roma as posible out of Nova Roma,
> favoring persuing creation of some Utopia based on
> ideas that have nothing to do with Roma.
>
> I'm perplexed why someone who has so little intrest in
> recreating Roma would join an organization who's
> constitution clearly states
>
> "As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic
> and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all
> manners practical and acceptable, as the modern
> restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The
> culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
> patterned upon those of ancient Rome."
>
> However a great many people have joined who have
> little or no intrest in this recreation. If we are
> going to abbandon this goal in favor of creating some
> modernist idea of a Utopia, then continuing with the
> name Nova Roma is a fraud.
>
> --- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@m...> wrote:
> > Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> > ????
> >
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: L. Sicinius Drusus
> > To: Nova Roma
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:43 PM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
> >
> >
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > No the Subject line isn't a typo, it's a means of
> > expressing what some people's views of our seem to
> > be.
> > NOVA in upper case as the "important" part, roma
> > in
> > lower case as something unimportant tacked on to
> > the
> > NOVA.
> >
> > The roma part seems to be comming more and more
> > unimportant to those enthralled with the NOVA.
> > Soon it
> > will be NOVA rom... Nova ro... Nova r... as more
> > and
> > more of Roma gets tossed on the scrap heap.
> >
> > Perhaps we should be discussing a name change
> > along
> > with the other Modernisms. How about "New
> > Republic".
> > It gets rid of that "outdated" Latin for a modern
> > language, and removes Roma from the name entirely.
> >
> > We also need to remove the final sentence from the
> > Preamble of the Constitution. The one that reads
> > "The
> > culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall
> > be
> > patterned upon those of ancient Rome." Instead of
> > ignoring it, it would be more honest to delete it.
> >
> > =====
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> > __________________________________
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> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com