Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Jul 23-30, 2003

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13366 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: Independence Day
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13367 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: Independence Day
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13368 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: NOVA ROMAN INTERNATIONAL RALLY: -1 week
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13369 From: Sergey Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: salvete (test)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13370 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13371 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13372 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13373 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13374 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13375 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: RECUERDOS DE NUESTRA ROMANIDAD
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13376 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13377 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Harvard Classics Poetry Recital
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13378 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: NOVA ROMAN INTERNATIONAL RALLY: -1 week
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13379 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: The Brigantes and Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13380 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13381 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13382 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13383 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: Harvard Classics Poetry Recital
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13384 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13385 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13386 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13387 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13388 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13389 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13390 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13391 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13392 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13393 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13394 From: lanius117@aol.com Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: translation of Italian to English
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13395 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13396 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13397 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13398 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: translation of Italian to English
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13399 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13400 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13401 From: GirlinBriteSandals Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: (no subject)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13402 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13403 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13404 From: Patricia Cassia Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Roman Market Day in Hollis, Sept. 13 and 14
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13405 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13406 From: Caivs Ivlivs Barcinvs Ciconivs Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Furrinalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13407 From: Sp. Postumius Tubertus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13408 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13409 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13410 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13411 From: rexmarciusnr Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Results from the latest Senate session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13412 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: P. Terentius Varro Atacinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13413 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13414 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: translation of Italian to English
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13415 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: translation of Italian to English
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13416 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: Results from the latest Senate session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13417 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: Results from the latest Senate session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13418 From: Alejandro Carneiro Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: Results from the latest Senate session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13419 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Gracchus and the manpower c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13420 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13421 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13422 From: Caius Cornelius Varus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Was:GENS REG. Now: Request to take thread offlist
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13423 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13424 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13425 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13426 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13427 From: Justin Swanstrom Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13428 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13429 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13430 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: NOVA ROMAN MEETING 03: accomodation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13431 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13432 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13433 From: Jim Lancaster Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13434 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13435 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13436 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13437 From: Paula Drennan Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: timing of posts??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13438 From: Paula Drennan Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13439 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13440 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13441 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Festus Lexicon Project
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13442 From: lucius_lucillus_catiline Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Temporary exile
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13443 From: José Luis Fernández del Valle Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Re: RECUERDOS DE NUESTRA ROMANIDAD
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13444 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Celtic Linguistics
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13445 From: Alejandro Carneiro Date: 2003-07-27
Subject: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13446 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-07-27
Subject: Re: Celtic Linguistics
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13447 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: [Fwd: ]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13448 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: [Fwd: ]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13449 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13450 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: IMP: Wrong paiement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13451 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Database for Archaeological Pottery
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13452 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: roman detective story
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13453 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13454 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13455 From: Marcus Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Taxes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13456 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Taxes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13457 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Taxes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13458 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13459 From: GirlinBriteSandals Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Taxes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13460 From: GirlinBriteSandals Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: roman detective story
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13461 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: RECUERDOS DE NUESTRA ROMANIDAD
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13462 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13463 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13464 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13465 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13466 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13467 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: roman detective story
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13468 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13469 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13470 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13471 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Poll Alert
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13472 From: John Walzer Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13473 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: To Girlinbritesandals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13474 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13475 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13476 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13477 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Poll Alert
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13478 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13479 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13480 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13481 From: Jim Lancaster Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13482 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Digest Number 748
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13483 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: roman detective story, chapter 2
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13484 From: Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13485 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Greek and Roman Grammarians
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13486 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: The Trimalchio Font
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13487 From: Patricia Cassia Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13488 From: saucydemon2000 Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13489 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13490 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13491 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13492 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Citizenship oath
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13493 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath 'Rings'
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13494 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13495 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13496 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13497 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13498 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13499 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13500 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13501 From: R M Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13502 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13503 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13504 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13505 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13506 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13507 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13508 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: New poll for Nova-Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13509 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Ancient Greek Music
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13510 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: NOVA ROMAN INTERNATIONAL RALLY: weather
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13511 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Absentia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13512 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: ABSENTIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13513 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Absens until August the 17th
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13514 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13515 From: politicog Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13516 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13517 From: politicog Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Article from U.S. News and World Reports on the Roman World in 1 AD
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13518 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13519 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13520 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13521 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13522 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13523 From: Manius Constantinus Serapio Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Absentia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13524 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13525 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13526 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13527 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: absentia & chapters 3 and 4
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13528 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13529 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13530 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Absentia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13531 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13532 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13533 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13534 From: Jim Lancaster Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13535 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13536 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13537 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13538 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: absentia & chapters 3 and 4
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13539 From: Fortunatus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13540 From: Quintus Cassius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13541 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Absens until August the 17th



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13366 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: Independence Day
Agreed, nothing more need be said.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Quintus Cassius
<quintuscassius@y...> wrote:
> Okay people hold the economy to Bush...However what goes up
eventually comes down....Rome built itself up but eventually
collapsed to relate this to Rome but like our bank accounts the
economy goes up and down. Clinton's liberal administration did a
wonderful job boosting the economy but it can only go up so much
before coming down. The military campaign was a necessary act as
Hussein was a threat and the way N Korea is acting I would support a
PRE-EMPTIVE strike on them as well. Mind you those member nations in
the "axis of evil" weer listed as such for a reason...the "ambert
alerts" are a good thing and the Supre Court is a a story all to
itself.....hopefully it'll remember stare decisis in the future
though.
> vale,
> Quintus Cassius
>
> snip
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13367 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: Independence Day
Thank you.
In keeping with the honorable though blunt Drusus, I agree that this
should end here and if need be, continue out back in the alley, lol.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Quintus Cassius
<quintuscassius@y...> wrote:
> Thank the gods for those with wisdom!!
> vale
> Quintus Cassius
>
> snip
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13368 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: NOVA ROMAN INTERNATIONAL RALLY: -1 week
Salve Amice!

I really look forward to the Rally and will be happy to see You and
all other citizens! ;-)

>Salvete Omnes,
>
>the event is close, 1 week to the International meeting of Nova
>Romans in Bologna (Provincia Italia) from 1st to 3rd August.

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13369 From: Sergey Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: salvete (test)
Salvete!

Test.

Secundus Domitianus Sergius

PS
Sorry
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13370 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Salve Pomponia,

I am, of course, delighted for you that your citizenship has been
approved - congratulations!

However, this turn of events is concerning to me both as a CIVIS and
PATERFAMILIAS.

Firstly, I have written to the CENSORES on no less than 3 occasions
(twice privately, once publicly) as PATERFAMILIAS on your behalf -
not once have I received a reply. Rather I must discover this news
publicly. Quite apart from discourtesy and bad practice I do not
feel that the CENSORES have accorded me the respect I am due as a
PATERFAMILIAS in this matter.

Neither I'm afraid to say had you contacted me privately, Pomponia,
to let me know of the CENSORES decision or yours to revert to your
original application - an application you had told me privately that
you wished to supersede in favour of my sponsorship of you into gens
CALIDIA. In truth I am disappointed , if not a little wounded,
since that would, in my view, have been a simple courtesy. That
said, Pomponia, I enjoyed our discourses, I bear you no ill will
and, naturally, I wish you every success and happiness in your new
gens.

One small point and please do not think this a rebuke, I note that
in a subsequent post to my colleague QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS you
talk of gens. CALIDIA as being "defunct" may I ask why you made this
assertion? It is certainly news to me as PATERFAMILIAS and
something at the very least I should have thought the CENSORES would
have contacted me about. Certainly, if one looks down the list
produced by MARCVS OCTAVIVS GERMANICVS you will find no mention of
gens CALIDIA.

I may not have been as active as I would have wished over the last 6-
7 months but that was due to my own personal circumstances -
publicly stated - and completely outside my control as Tibune
AVENTINA will attest. Before last December (remember I'm only a
CIVIS myself since last September) I was very active both in the
project to recruit new CIVES from north Africa and enhance our
Website for that as QVAESTOR SERAPIO and QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS
will attest. I was also proactive in the lengthy/ controversial
debate we had over gens reform as our venerable ex-Consul Sulla will
attest. Since my recent return, I have of own volition offered my
gens to you when as a prospective CIVIS you were apparently in need
of one - not only helping a fellow CIVIS but also attempting, as
PATERFAMILIAS, to increase gens CALIDIA. Finally, as you know,
Pomponia, I had willingly agreed to your suggestion that we should
use gens CALIDIA as a DE FACTO focal point for prospective CIVES
from HIBERNIA and I had also written to the PROPRAETOR of BRITANNIA,
honoured SILANVS, making the case that HIBERNIA should form its own
distinct PROVINCIA. I ask more to QVIRITES generally is this
inactivity? I ask not sarcastically but genuinely, what level of
activity must one fall below before a gens is considered defunct,
who decides this, how is this communicated, what input does the
PATERFAMILIAS have in the decision and what are the rights of
appeal? Certainly, I have received nothing from the Magistrates of
NOVA ROMA - ironic is it not at a time when we are supposedly trying
to encourage active gens and PATERFAMILIAS? I would respectfully
suggest, that my treatment in this matter does not augur well for
the initiative as a whole.

Pomponia, please do not think this entire post is aimed at you, I
assure it is not, as you see it is as much, if not more so aimed at
my treatment by officials of NOVA ROMA. I remain happy to correspond
with you at any time on any matter, as long as I remain in NOVA
ROMA. But yes this matter, if not properly addressed and redressed
to me, will have left me feeling disallusioned.

BONA FORTVNA


VALE


M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA


TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

"VERITAS LVX MEA"





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salve Marce Calidi;
> the Censores, in my opinion, wisely reinstated my 1st
application
> to the active gens Fabia Vera. I believe this is better for Nova
Roma
> as a whole, this is no diminution to your honor but a question of
> practicality and wisdom. Though you are not my paterfamilias we
can
> certainly work to create an active Hibernia.
> Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
> (unofficially Urania Calidia Antonina)
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORI MARCO OCTAVIO GERMANICO S.P.D.
> >
> > Honoured Censor,
> >
> > Please forgive my public address to you. I do so in my capacity
as
> > PATERFAMILIAS of gens CALIDIA. I have e-mailed you at the
CENSORES
> > official e-mail address some time ago and you personally more
> > recently but have yet to receive a reply.
> >
> > I understand that your post is both an onerous and extremely
busy
> > one -I certainly do not wish to add to your burden. I have
written
> > to you about the acceptance of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA as a
CIVIS
> > and my formal adoption of her into gens CALIDIA which I have
> > approved.
> >
> > Perhaps, you would be good enough to contact me at
> > cybernaut911@y... regarding this matter.
> >
> > Thanking you in anticipation.
> >
> >
> > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > PATERFAMILIAS
> >
> > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Africa Septentrionalis
> >
> > http://www.geocities/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> > -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> > <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The patresfamilias of the following gentes, each containing
> > multiple
> > > citizens, did not reply to the gens registration request of
May
> > and June.
> > >
> > > Citizens within these gentes may petition the Censores to be
> > appointed
> > > the new paterfamilias (materfamilias). If more than one
person
> > from any
> > > gens in this list wishes to assume this position, the conflict
> will
> > > be resolved according to the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium
> > > Novaromanarum Agendis.
> > >
> > > Acilia Postumus Acilius Fylko
> > > *Aelia Quintus Aelius Vartarius
> > > Aenea Apollonia Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
> > > Aetria Titus Aetrius Ferox
> > > Albia Gaius Albius Gadelicus
> > > Alexandria Tiberius Alexandrius Marius
> > > Amatia Marcus Amatius Lupus
> > > Anncina Secundia Ancinna Octavia
> > > Annia Lucius Anneus Laurentius
> > > *Antonia Marcus Antonius Caesar
> > > Arcadia Marcus Arcadius Pius
> > > Arria Quintus Arrius Flavius
> > > Artoria Aulus Artorius Arius
> > > Asinia Titus Asinius Pollio
> > > Atlantica Lucius Atlanticus Celtius
> > > Augusta Marcus Augustus Octavius
> > > Aurelia Publius Aurelius Varrius
> > > Australia Mamercus Australius Cicero
> > > Caecilia Caecilia Leporaria
> > > Caecilia Metella Lucius Caecilius Metellus Scaevola
> > > Canadia Falco Canadius Centuri
> > > Caprenia Gnaea Caprenia Gallia
> > > Caselia Tiberius Caselius Sidonius
> > > Castellana Lucullus Castellanus Interamnas
> > > Claudia Lucentia Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
> > > Columella Columella Octavia
> > > Coruncania Titus Coruncanius Rufus
> > > Corva Lucius Corvus Pallidus
> > > Curia Martinus Curius Cupidus
> > > Curtia Lisectus Curtius Barcus
> > > Didia Gemina Marcus Didius Geminus Falcus
> > > Domitia Tiberius Domitius Fortis
> > > Drusilla Gaius Drusillus Lepidus
> > > Duilia Marcus Duilius Fusconius
> > > Fabricia Iunia Fabricia Batavia
> > > Flacca Oppius Flaccus Severus
> > > Fulvia Marcus Fulvius Flaccus
> > > Germana Marcellus Germanus Ancinnius
> > > Gramatinica Toddius Gramatinicus Ahenbarbus Austinicus
> > > Hebraea Lupus Hebraeus Levius
> > > Helvetia Titius Helvetius Gallus
> > > Hibernia Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
> > > Hyeania Scipio Hyeanus Africanus
> > > Iana Andreus Ianus Vir
> > > Imperia Gaius Imperius
> > > Inventia Numerius Inventius Barbatus
> > > Irminia Marcus Irminius Longinus
> > > Italia Sextus Italius Lupus
> > > Iucundia Minervina Iucundia Flavia
> > > Jovia Diocletianus Jovius Herculeius
> > > Larcia Titus Larcius Mulinus
> > > Licinia Lucius Licinius Varro Murena
> > > Longina Marcus Longinus Savo
> > > Lucia Honoria Lucia
> > > *Luciana Marius Lucianus Silvanus
> > > Maira Maria Dia
> > > Marcella Flavius Marcellus Valerius
> > > Martia Scipio Martius Bellicus
> > > Mauricia Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > > Maxentia Gaius Maxentius Apollonarius Sorex
> > > Maxima Marcus Maximus Gaius
> > > Mercuria Julius Mercurius
> > > Natalina Gaia Natalina Casca
> > > Nautia Publius Nautius Russus
> > > Olivaria Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
> > > Olympia Paulus Olympius Gallus
> > > Optima Carius Optimus
> > > Ovidia Julia Ovidia Luna
> > > Papiria Marcus Papirus Justus
> > > Pasqualia Ioannus Pasqualius Delavarius
> > > Paulia Gaius Paulius Africanus
> > > Petra Josephus Petrus Amicus
> > > Petronia Attica Petronia Gallia
> > > *Planincola Laurentius Planincolus Davidius Germanicus
> > > Pompeia Gnaeus Pompieus Calamus Verpa
> > > Pontia Gaius Pontius Falco
> > > Porcia Marcus Porcius Cato
> > > *Portia Tiberius Portius Sarno
> > > Queria Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> > > Quinta Kaeso Quintus Bellicus
> > > Quintilia Titus Quintilius Germanicus
> > > Ritulia Prima Ritulia Nocta
> > > Romana Caius Romanus Primus
> > > Romula Servius Romulus Horatius
> > > Sempronia Tiberius Sempronius Licinius
> > > Sententiosa Iona Sententiosa Britaega
> > > Serena Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus
> > > Sertoria Quintus Sertorius
> > > Sestia Sextus Sestius Sedigitus
> > > Silvia Gaius Silvius Agricola
> > > Solaria Alexander Solaris Draconteus
> > > Suetonia Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
> > > Tacitia Tiberius Tacitus Rex
> > > Tarquinia Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
> > > Terentia Ferraria Manius Terentius Ferrarius Longinus
> > > Theodosia Antonius Theodosius Melinius
> > > Tituria Vincens Titurius Bellator
> > > Troica Sextus Troicus Ductor
> > > Vergilia Sextus Vergilius Maro
> > > Vibia Publius Vibius Sarmaticus
> > > Virginia Marcus Virginius Julianus
> > > Viridia Gallus Viridius Tanicus
> > > Vitellia Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> > > (103 gentes)
> > >
> > > Note that these gentes are *NOT* being disbanded, and these
names
> > are
> > > not being made available for use by other citizens. These
gentes
> > are
> > > merely temporarily suspended so that they can reorganize
> > themselves.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > > M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> > > Censor, Consular, Citizen.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13371 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORIBVS S.P.D.

AVETE

Honoured Censors, I have just been to the ALBVM GENTIVM on my way to
pick up my voter card, and I now find that gens. CALIDIA is no
longer listed. Why, and why have you not sought my comments/
opinion as PATERFAMILIAS or at the very least informed me?

Since gens. CALIDIA is no longer listed, is it fair to assume as far
as NOVA ROMA is concerned it (ID EST GENS. CALIDIA) no longer
exists? If the latter is now the case, where does that leave me?
Am I no longer a CIVIS? Perhaps, I am also removed, unilaterally
and without notice, from the ALBVM CIVIVM as well - I don't know -
it takes too long to download?

Is this now the way matters are conducted in Rome? Surely the
neither the Senate, the COMITIA CENTURIATA nor the COMITIA TRIBUTA
(POPVLI ET PEBLIS)are happy with this MODVS OPERANDI? Where is
Roman fair play and justice in this for me as a Roman citizen? You
may well cite the fact that CIVES were notified about these changes,
but for very well publicised and personal reasons I have been absent
from Rome through no fault of my own - only recently to return. May
I ask, respectfully, what contingencies were in place for CIVES like
me?

I am also extremely unhappy, with your recent endeavours RE GENS
CALIDIA since my return to Rome. On my return, when GENS CALIDIA
was still listed, I found that you had unilaterally and without
notice, changed me from ASSIDVVS to CAPITE CENSI and my tribal name
and number from PVPINA, XXIII (Rural)to CATILINA, XXXIII (Urban).

Furthermore, I have written to you, as PATERFAMILIAS, on no less
than 3 occasions (twice privately, once publicly)RE citizenship
approval in respect of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA (now POMPONIA
ATTICA). You failed to reply to me at all nor have you informed me
of the reasons for this CIVIS change in gens nor, out of respect for
me as her possible PATERFAMILIAS, did you inform me of her
acceptance as a citizen - this is simply unacceptable and not good
enough.

I accept totally, and appreciate fully (as I have said on many other
occasions)that the work load and attendent responsibilities of the
CENSORES is, indeed, onerous, busy and most of the time without
thanks or consideration. For that reason, I cannot and would
generalise, however, I can speak with some authority regarding my
own poersonal experience. I regret very much to have to conduct
this discourse in public, but it seems the private, quiet approach
apparently does not work and now I feel the people should know of my
treatment.

As I have said to our new CIVIS Pomponia, this whole business has
left me feeling very disillusioned as a CIVIS of NOVA ROMA. Whether
I remain in NOVA ROMA (if I am still a CIVIS that is q.v. ALBVM
GENTIVM!)after this dismissive, demeaning and disrespectful
treatment depends on your actions now. My honour and DIGNITAS as
both a CIVIS ET PATERFAMILIAS have been affronted and I now seek
remedial action and justice from you. Whatever you decide, and
whatever my subsequent response to that may be, know this:
wherever I go, I, MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS, shall always serve Rome
(S.P.Q.R.).

VALETE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

"VERITAS LVX MEA"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13372 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
The server does appear unnaturally slow and I come in off a T line -
anyone stull using 56K could proably watch grass grow faster. There
must be a web-master involved that can clean up the cob-webs, lol, to
enable faster response time.

Is it possible that there is just a breakdown in communications?
Maybe a procedure should be devised to handle these matters.
Group mailing lists, order of processing etc.
It seems like the most efficient way to organize and communicate
these processes whether they be relatively easy or very complicated.

There is probably a logical reason why your personal and public
requests were overlooked but on the brighter side (once these
debacles have been corrected) this is probably an excellent
opportunity to fine tune a method of process of fix the one currently
not working.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
<cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORIBVS S.P.D.
>
> AVETE
>
> Honoured Censors, I have just been to the ALBVM GENTIVM on my way
to
> pick up my voter card, and I now find that gens. CALIDIA is no
> longer listed. Why, and why have you not sought my comments/
> opinion as PATERFAMILIAS or at the very least informed me?
>
> Since gens. CALIDIA is no longer listed, is it fair to assume as
far
> as NOVA ROMA is concerned it (ID EST GENS. CALIDIA) no longer
> exists? If the latter is now the case, where does that leave me?
> Am I no longer a CIVIS? Perhaps, I am also removed, unilaterally
> and without notice, from the ALBVM CIVIVM as well - I don't know -
> it takes too long to download?
>
> Is this now the way matters are conducted in Rome? Surely the
> neither the Senate, the COMITIA CENTURIATA nor the COMITIA TRIBUTA
> (POPVLI ET PEBLIS)are happy with this MODVS OPERANDI? Where is
> Roman fair play and justice in this for me as a Roman citizen? You
> may well cite the fact that CIVES were notified about these
changes,
> but for very well publicised and personal reasons I have been
absent
> from Rome through no fault of my own - only recently to return.
May
> I ask, respectfully, what contingencies were in place for CIVES
like
> me?
>
> I am also extremely unhappy, with your recent endeavours RE GENS
> CALIDIA since my return to Rome. On my return, when GENS CALIDIA
> was still listed, I found that you had unilaterally and without
> notice, changed me from ASSIDVVS to CAPITE CENSI and my tribal name
> and number from PVPINA, XXIII (Rural)to CATILINA, XXXIII (Urban).
>
> Furthermore, I have written to you, as PATERFAMILIAS, on no less
> than 3 occasions (twice privately, once publicly)RE citizenship
> approval in respect of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA (now POMPONIA
> ATTICA). You failed to reply to me at all nor have you informed me
> of the reasons for this CIVIS change in gens nor, out of respect
for
> me as her possible PATERFAMILIAS, did you inform me of her
> acceptance as a citizen - this is simply unacceptable and not good
> enough.
>
> I accept totally, and appreciate fully (as I have said on many
other
> occasions)that the work load and attendent responsibilities of the
> CENSORES is, indeed, onerous, busy and most of the time without
> thanks or consideration. For that reason, I cannot and would
> generalise, however, I can speak with some authority regarding my
> own poersonal experience. I regret very much to have to conduct
> this discourse in public, but it seems the private, quiet approach
> apparently does not work and now I feel the people should know of
my
> treatment.
>
> As I have said to our new CIVIS Pomponia, this whole business has
> left me feeling very disillusioned as a CIVIS of NOVA ROMA.
Whether
> I remain in NOVA ROMA (if I am still a CIVIS that is q.v. ALBVM
> GENTIVM!)after this dismissive, demeaning and disrespectful
> treatment depends on your actions now. My honour and DIGNITAS as
> both a CIVIS ET PATERFAMILIAS have been affronted and I now seek
> remedial action and justice from you. Whatever you decide, and
> whatever my subsequent response to that may be, know this:
> wherever I go, I, MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS, shall always serve Rome
> (S.P.Q.R.).
>
> VALETE
>
> M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA
>
> TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
>
> "VERITAS LVX MEA"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13373 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
---
Salve Marce;
I have checked my email and notice that the very day I received my
citizenship, I also wrote to you privately reminding you that I
applied to Gens Fabia Vera first and then you, but that your gens was
dissolved.
If you check this list there is a large notice declaring which gens
are dissolved and why & you are among them. I checked this as well as
the Album Civium and the Provincia Britannia where you are listed as
Marcus Nemo Gracchus.
I take no ill feeling from your post Marcus, I understand that you
feel your dignitas has been affected, but is not Hibernia and its
cives more important than 1 tiny gens? Will you fail to lead Hibernia
because of this or is it a matter of starting a giant gens and being
the head of it?
I wish you well Marcus & hope you still care for Hibernia,
Vale Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
<cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> Salve Pomponia,
>
> I am, of course, delighted for you that your citizenship has been
> approved - congratulations!
>
> However, this turn of events is concerning to me both as a CIVIS
and
> PATERFAMILIAS.
>
> .
>
> Neither I'm afraid to say had you contacted me privately, Pomponia,
> to let me know of the CENSORES decision or yours to revert to your
> original application - an application you had told me privately
that
> you wished to supersede in favour of my sponsorship of you into
gens
> CALIDIA. In truth I am disappointed , if not a little wounded,
> since that would, in my view, have been a simple courtesy. That
> said, Pomponia, I enjoyed our discourses, I bear you no ill will
> and, naturally, I wish you every success and happiness in your new
> gens.
>
> One small point and please do not think this a rebuke, I note that
> in a subsequent post to my colleague QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS you
> talk of gens. CALIDIA as being "defunct" may I ask why you made
this
> assertion? It is certainly news to me as PATERFAMILIAS and
> something at the very least I should have thought the CENSORES
would
> have contacted me about. Certainly, if one looks down the list
> produced by MARCVS OCTAVIVS GERMANICVS you will find no mention of
> gens CALIDIA.
>
> I may not have been as active as I would have wished over the last
6-
> 7 months but that was due to my own personal circumstances -
> publicly stated - and completely outside my control as Tibune
> AVENTINA will attest. Before last December (remember I'm only a
> CIVIS myself since last September) I was very active both in the
> project to recruit new CIVES from north Africa and enhance our
> Website for that as QVAESTOR SERAPIO and QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS
> will attest. I was also proactive in the lengthy/ controversial
> debate we had over gens reform as our venerable ex-Consul Sulla
will
> attest. Since my recent return, I have of own volition offered my
> gens to you when as a prospective CIVIS you were apparently in need
> of one - not only helping a fellow CIVIS but also attempting, as
> PATERFAMILIAS, to increase gens CALIDIA. Finally, as you know,
> Pomponia, I had willingly agreed to your suggestion that we should
> use gens CALIDIA as a DE FACTO focal point for prospective CIVES
> from HIBERNIA and I had also written to the PROPRAETOR of
BRITANNIA,
> honoured SILANVS, making the case that HIBERNIA should form its own
> distinct PROVINCIA. I ask more to QVIRITES generally is this
> inactivity? I ask not sarcastically but genuinely, what level of
> activity must one fall below before a gens is considered defunct,
> who decides this, how is this communicated, what input does the
> PATERFAMILIAS have in the decision and what are the rights of
> appeal? Certainly, I have received nothing from the Magistrates of
> NOVA ROMA - ironic is it not at a time when we are supposedly
trying
> to encourage active gens and PATERFAMILIAS? I would respectfully
> suggest, that my treatment in this matter does not augur well for
> the initiative as a whole.
>
> Pomponia, please do not think this entire post is aimed at you, I
> assure it is not, as you see it is as much, if not more so aimed at
> my treatment by officials of NOVA ROMA. I remain happy to
correspond
> with you at any time on any matter, as long as I remain in NOVA
> ROMA. But yes this matter, if not properly addressed and redressed
> to me, will have left me feeling disallusioned.
>
> BONA FORTVNA
>
>
> VALE
>
>
> M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA
>
>
> TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
>
> "VERITAS LVX MEA"
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > Salve Marce Calidi;
> > the Censores, in my opinion, wisely reinstated my 1st
> application
> > to the active gens Fabia Vera. I believe this is better for Nova
> Roma
> > as a whole, this is no diminution to your honor but a question of
> > practicality and wisdom. Though you are not my paterfamilias we
> can
> > certainly work to create an active Hibernia.
> > Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
> > (unofficially Urania Calidia Antonina)
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> > <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > > MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORI MARCO OCTAVIO GERMANICO S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Honoured Censor,
> > >
> > > Please forgive my public address to you. I do so in my
capacity
> as
> > > PATERFAMILIAS of gens CALIDIA. I have e-mailed you at the
> CENSORES
> > > official e-mail address some time ago and you personally more
> > > recently but have yet to receive a reply.
> > >
> > > I understand that your post is both an onerous and extremely
> busy
> > > one -I certainly do not wish to add to your burden. I have
> written
> > > to you about the acceptance of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA as a
> CIVIS
> > > and my formal adoption of her into gens CALIDIA which I have
> > > approved.
> > >
> > > Perhaps, you would be good enough to contact me at
> > > cybernaut911@y... regarding this matter.
> > >
> > > Thanking you in anticipation.
> > >
> > >
> > > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > > PATERFAMILIAS
> > >
> > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Africa Septentrionalis
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> > > <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The patresfamilias of the following gentes, each containing
> > > multiple
> > > > citizens, did not reply to the gens registration request of
> May
> > > and June.
> > > >
> > > > Citizens within these gentes may petition the Censores to be
> > > appointed
> > > > the new paterfamilias (materfamilias). If more than one
> person
> > > from any
> > > > gens in this list wishes to assume this position, the
conflict
> > will
> > > > be resolved according to the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium
> > > > Novaromanarum Agendis.
> > > >
> > > > Acilia Postumus Acilius Fylko
> > > > *Aelia Quintus Aelius Vartarius
> > > > Aenea Apollonia Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
> > > > Aetria Titus Aetrius Ferox
> > > > Albia Gaius Albius Gadelicus
> > > > Alexandria Tiberius Alexandrius Marius
> > > > Amatia Marcus Amatius Lupus
> > > > Anncina Secundia Ancinna Octavia
> > > > Annia Lucius Anneus Laurentius
> > > > *Antonia Marcus Antonius Caesar
> > > > Arcadia Marcus Arcadius Pius
> > > > Arria Quintus Arrius Flavius
> > > > Artoria Aulus Artorius Arius
> > > > Asinia Titus Asinius Pollio
> > > > Atlantica Lucius Atlanticus Celtius
> > > > Augusta Marcus Augustus Octavius
> > > > Aurelia Publius Aurelius Varrius
> > > > Australia Mamercus Australius Cicero
> > > > Caecilia Caecilia Leporaria
> > > > Caecilia Metella Lucius Caecilius Metellus Scaevola
> > > > Canadia Falco Canadius Centuri
> > > > Caprenia Gnaea Caprenia Gallia
> > > > Caselia Tiberius Caselius Sidonius
> > > > Castellana Lucullus Castellanus Interamnas
> > > > Claudia Lucentia Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
> > > > Columella Columella Octavia
> > > > Coruncania Titus Coruncanius Rufus
> > > > Corva Lucius Corvus Pallidus
> > > > Curia Martinus Curius Cupidus
> > > > Curtia Lisectus Curtius Barcus
> > > > Didia Gemina Marcus Didius Geminus Falcus
> > > > Domitia Tiberius Domitius Fortis
> > > > Drusilla Gaius Drusillus Lepidus
> > > > Duilia Marcus Duilius Fusconius
> > > > Fabricia Iunia Fabricia Batavia
> > > > Flacca Oppius Flaccus Severus
> > > > Fulvia Marcus Fulvius Flaccus
> > > > Germana Marcellus Germanus Ancinnius
> > > > Gramatinica Toddius Gramatinicus Ahenbarbus
Austinicus
> > > > Hebraea Lupus Hebraeus Levius
> > > > Helvetia Titius Helvetius Gallus
> > > > Hibernia Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
> > > > Hyeania Scipio Hyeanus Africanus
> > > > Iana Andreus Ianus Vir
> > > > Imperia Gaius Imperius
> > > > Inventia Numerius Inventius Barbatus
> > > > Irminia Marcus Irminius Longinus
> > > > Italia Sextus Italius Lupus
> > > > Iucundia Minervina Iucundia Flavia
> > > > Jovia Diocletianus Jovius Herculeius
> > > > Larcia Titus Larcius Mulinus
> > > > Licinia Lucius Licinius Varro Murena
> > > > Longina Marcus Longinus Savo
> > > > Lucia Honoria Lucia
> > > > *Luciana Marius Lucianus Silvanus
> > > > Maira Maria Dia
> > > > Marcella Flavius Marcellus Valerius
> > > > Martia Scipio Martius Bellicus
> > > > Mauricia Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > > > Maxentia Gaius Maxentius Apollonarius Sorex
> > > > Maxima Marcus Maximus Gaius
> > > > Mercuria Julius Mercurius
> > > > Natalina Gaia Natalina Casca
> > > > Nautia Publius Nautius Russus
> > > > Olivaria Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
> > > > Olympia Paulus Olympius Gallus
> > > > Optima Carius Optimus
> > > > Ovidia Julia Ovidia Luna
> > > > Papiria Marcus Papirus Justus
> > > > Pasqualia Ioannus Pasqualius Delavarius
> > > > Paulia Gaius Paulius Africanus
> > > > Petra Josephus Petrus Amicus
> > > > Petronia Attica Petronia Gallia
> > > > *Planincola Laurentius Planincolus Davidius
Germanicus
> > > > Pompeia Gnaeus Pompieus Calamus Verpa
> > > > Pontia Gaius Pontius Falco
> > > > Porcia Marcus Porcius Cato
> > > > *Portia Tiberius Portius Sarno
> > > > Queria Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> > > > Quinta Kaeso Quintus Bellicus
> > > > Quintilia Titus Quintilius Germanicus
> > > > Ritulia Prima Ritulia Nocta
> > > > Romana Caius Romanus Primus
> > > > Romula Servius Romulus Horatius
> > > > Sempronia Tiberius Sempronius Licinius
> > > > Sententiosa Iona Sententiosa Britaega
> > > > Serena Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus
> > > > Sertoria Quintus Sertorius
> > > > Sestia Sextus Sestius Sedigitus
> > > > Silvia Gaius Silvius Agricola
> > > > Solaria Alexander Solaris Draconteus
> > > > Suetonia Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
> > > > Tacitia Tiberius Tacitus Rex
> > > > Tarquinia Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
> > > > Terentia Ferraria Manius Terentius Ferrarius Longinus
> > > > Theodosia Antonius Theodosius Melinius
> > > > Tituria Vincens Titurius Bellator
> > > > Troica Sextus Troicus Ductor
> > > > Vergilia Sextus Vergilius Maro
> > > > Vibia Publius Vibius Sarmaticus
> > > > Virginia Marcus Virginius Julianus
> > > > Viridia Gallus Viridius Tanicus
> > > > Vitellia Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> > > > (103 gentes)
> > > >
> > > > Note that these gentes are *NOT* being disbanded, and these
> names
> > > are
> > > > not being made available for use by other citizens. These
> gentes
> > > are
> > > > merely temporarily suspended so that they can reorganize
> > > themselves.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > > M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> > > > Censor, Consular, Citizen.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13374 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Salve Quinte Lani;
thank you for the welcome, I will take you up on your kind offer
when in confusion. Actually one of the best things you have done is
to give the new cives a brief summary of the issues when the list
gets heated!
Salve to all my fellow novoromani in Hispania,
optem valete, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Pomponia,
>
> Congratulations on your citizenship! We all look forward to working
> with you in the future.Please don't hesitate to ask any questions
> when you need help finding your way around. All the best.
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > Salve Quinte;
> > I agree this was very well done. I have just received my
> > citizenship under the name of Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica; I
believe
> > it is best for the cives of defunct gens such as Calidia to join
> > active ones.
> > Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica proud citizen of Nova Roma
> > (unofficially Urania Calidia Antonina)
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> > Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > > Salve Censor Marce,
> > >
> > > Well done! This is indeed a great step in the right direction
for
> > > Nova Roma!
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> > > <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The patresfamilias of the following gentes, each containing
> > multiple
> > > > citizens, did not reply to the gens registration request of
May
> > and
> > > June.
> > > >
> > > > Citizens within these gentes may petition the Censores to be
> > > appointed
> > > > the new paterfamilias (materfamilias). If more than one
person
> > > from any
> > > > gens in this list wishes to assume this position, the
conflict
> > will
> > > > be resolved according to the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium
> > > > Novaromanarum Agendis.
> > > >
> > > > Acilia Postumus Acilius Fylko
> > > > *Aelia Quintus Aelius Vartarius
> > > > Aenea Apollonia Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
> > > > Aetria Titus Aetrius Ferox
> > > > Albia Gaius Albius Gadelicus
> > > > Alexandria Tiberius Alexandrius Marius
> > > > Amatia Marcus Amatius Lupus
> > > > Anncina Secundia Ancinna Octavia
> > > > Annia Lucius Anneus Laurentius
> > > > *Antonia Marcus Antonius Caesar
> > > > Arcadia Marcus Arcadius Pius
> > > > Arria Quintus Arrius Flavius
> > > > Artoria Aulus Artorius Arius
> > > > Asinia Titus Asinius Pollio
> > > > Atlantica Lucius Atlanticus Celtius
> > > > Augusta Marcus Augustus Octavius
> > > > Aurelia Publius Aurelius Varrius
> > > > Australia Mamercus Australius Cicero
> > > > Caecilia Caecilia Leporaria
> > > > Caecilia Metella Lucius Caecilius Metellus Scaevola
> > > > Canadia Falco Canadius Centuri
> > > > Caprenia Gnaea Caprenia Gallia
> > > > Caselia Tiberius Caselius Sidonius
> > > > Castellana Lucullus Castellanus Interamnas
> > > > Claudia Lucentia Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
> > > > Columella Columella Octavia
> > > > Coruncania Titus Coruncanius Rufus
> > > > Corva Lucius Corvus Pallidus
> > > > Curia Martinus Curius Cupidus
> > > > Curtia Lisectus Curtius Barcus
> > > > Didia Gemina Marcus Didius Geminus Falcus
> > > > Domitia Tiberius Domitius Fortis
> > > > Drusilla Gaius Drusillus Lepidus
> > > > Duilia Marcus Duilius Fusconius
> > > > Fabricia Iunia Fabricia Batavia
> > > > Flacca Oppius Flaccus Severus
> > > > Fulvia Marcus Fulvius Flaccus
> > > > Germana Marcellus Germanus Ancinnius
> > > > Gramatinica Toddius Gramatinicus Ahenbarbus
Austinicus
> > > > Hebraea Lupus Hebraeus Levius
> > > > Helvetia Titius Helvetius Gallus
> > > > Hibernia Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
> > > > Hyeania Scipio Hyeanus Africanus
> > > > Iana Andreus Ianus Vir
> > > > Imperia Gaius Imperius
> > > > Inventia Numerius Inventius Barbatus
> > > > Irminia Marcus Irminius Longinus
> > > > Italia Sextus Italius Lupus
> > > > Iucundia Minervina Iucundia Flavia
> > > > Jovia Diocletianus Jovius Herculeius
> > > > Larcia Titus Larcius Mulinus
> > > > Licinia Lucius Licinius Varro Murena
> > > > Longina Marcus Longinus Savo
> > > > Lucia Honoria Lucia
> > > > *Luciana Marius Lucianus Silvanus
> > > > Maira Maria Dia
> > > > Marcella Flavius Marcellus Valerius
> > > > Martia Scipio Martius Bellicus
> > > > Mauricia Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > > > Maxentia Gaius Maxentius Apollonarius Sorex
> > > > Maxima Marcus Maximus Gaius
> > > > Mercuria Julius Mercurius
> > > > Natalina Gaia Natalina Casca
> > > > Nautia Publius Nautius Russus
> > > > Olivaria Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
> > > > Olympia Paulus Olympius Gallus
> > > > Optima Carius Optimus
> > > > Ovidia Julia Ovidia Luna
> > > > Papiria Marcus Papirus Justus
> > > > Pasqualia Ioannus Pasqualius Delavarius
> > > > Paulia Gaius Paulius Africanus
> > > > Petra Josephus Petrus Amicus
> > > > Petronia Attica Petronia Gallia
> > > > *Planincola Laurentius Planincolus Davidius
Germanicus
> > > > Pompeia Gnaeus Pompieus Calamus Verpa
> > > > Pontia Gaius Pontius Falco
> > > > Porcia Marcus Porcius Cato
> > > > *Portia Tiberius Portius Sarno
> > > > Queria Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> > > > Quinta Kaeso Quintus Bellicus
> > > > Quintilia Titus Quintilius Germanicus
> > > > Ritulia Prima Ritulia Nocta
> > > > Romana Caius Romanus Primus
> > > > Romula Servius Romulus Horatius
> > > > Sempronia Tiberius Sempronius Licinius
> > > > Sententiosa Iona Sententiosa Britaega
> > > > Serena Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus
> > > > Sertoria Quintus Sertorius
> > > > Sestia Sextus Sestius Sedigitus
> > > > Silvia Gaius Silvius Agricola
> > > > Solaria Alexander Solaris Draconteus
> > > > Suetonia Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
> > > > Tacitia Tiberius Tacitus Rex
> > > > Tarquinia Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
> > > > Terentia Ferraria Manius Terentius Ferrarius Longinus
> > > > Theodosia Antonius Theodosius Melinius
> > > > Tituria Vincens Titurius Bellator
> > > > Troica Sextus Troicus Ductor
> > > > Vergilia Sextus Vergilius Maro
> > > > Vibia Publius Vibius Sarmaticus
> > > > Virginia Marcus Virginius Julianus
> > > > Viridia Gallus Viridius Tanicus
> > > > Vitellia Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> > > > (103 gentes)
> > > >
> > > > Note that these gentes are *NOT* being disbanded, and these
> names
> > > are
> > > > not being made available for use by other citizens. These
> gentes
> > > are
> > > > merely temporarily suspended so that they can reorganize
> > themselves.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > > M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> > > > Censor, Consular, Citizen.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13375 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: RECUERDOS DE NUESTRA ROMANIDAD
Salvete omnes,

Me llamó la atención el otro día un mensaje de nuestra conciudadana
Betica sobre los restos arqueológicos de Astigi y su comentario sobre
que si queriamos conocerlos que nos diesemos prisa ya que poueden
desaparecer para ser sustituidos por un aparcamiento (si almenos
fuese para bigas y cuadrigas!).

Y me llamó la atención porqué en mi urbs, Complutum, estamos en las
mismas: se "destapan" yacimientos (de mayor o menos interés
arqueológico) que inmediatamente "desaparecen" de la vista para ser
sustituidos por algo "moderno".

Valga como ejemplo, por si alguien viene por Complutum, que entrando
en la ciudad por la antigua N-II se encuentra en un determinado
momento una serie de indicadores que nos "dirigen" a Complutum. Yo
que vivo allí, y cuando los pusieron, los seguí en mi vehiculo por
curiosidad y ver si era algo nuevo....me tiré dando vueltas más de
media hora hasta que encontré una valla de obra (en muy mal estado
por cierto), junto a una hermita, con un cartel, tirado en el suelo,
detras de una alambrada metalica que ponía "COMPLVTVM"..... la
excavación lleva abandonada ni se sabe cuanto (al parecer son los
resto de la basilica y de las termas que estaban ubicadas en el foro
de la urbs).

¿y todos los demás restos de la ciudad romana?

Enterrados y desaparecidos en aras de la modernidad de una ciudad que
ha sido declarada Patrimonio de la Humanidad.

Y así por casi toda nuestra Provincia con escasas y siento decirlo
así, escasas excepciones (Emerita Augusta, Tarraco, ....).

En Hispania estamos perdiendo nuestras raices romanas y las perdemos
porqué nos las están hurtando, robando, deteriorando y destruyendo.

¡Que envidia me da cuando visito Roma, Caput Mundi! Allí al menos
respetan de una manera u otra sus raices y permiten que los recuerdos
de nuestra romanidad perduren ad aeternum.

Me gustaría saber que estamos dispuestos a hacer o que podemos hacer
los cives de Nova Roma y sobre todo los de su Provincia Hispania.

Velete bene

M. A. Complutensis
Cives Romanus






M. Adr. Computensis

---------------------------------
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Nueva versión: Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más #161;Gratis!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13376 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Salve Marce Calidi,

> Honoured Censors, I have just been to the ALBVM GENTIVM on my way to
> pick up my voter card, and I now find that gens. CALIDIA is no
> longer listed. Why, and why have you not sought my comments/
> opinion as PATERFAMILIAS or at the very least informed me?

Every paterfamilias was asked to register their gens by visiting a
URL that was mailed out in may. I see no record of you having done so.
Nor can I find mail from cybernaut911@... or MLCRASSVS@... requesting
registration of the gens.

I have now re-created the gens and restored your status as paterfamilias.

> I found that you had unilaterally and without
> notice, changed me from ASSIDVVS to CAPITE CENSI and my tribal name
> and number from PVPINA, XXIII (Rural)to CATILINA, XXXIII (Urban).

This has nothing to do with the Censores. If you did make a payment,
contact the Quaestores to find out what happened to it.

> Furthermore, I have written to you, as PATERFAMILIAS, on no less
> than 3 occasions (twice privately, once publicly)RE citizenship
> approval in respect of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA (now POMPONIA
> ATTICA).

In this matter, you are correct; you wrote to us on June 27th and
July 10th, and I apologize for not processing her approval in time.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13377 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-23
Subject: Harvard Classics Poetry Recital
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Harvard Classics Poetry Recital":

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~classics/poetry_and_prose/poetry.html

Included in this are sound files of Harvard Classics Dept. faculty
reciting the poetry of Homer, Ovid, Propertius, Statius, and Catullus
and a prose selection from Cicero's "First Oration against Catilina."

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13378 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: NOVA ROMAN INTERNATIONAL RALLY: -1 week
Salvete,

I will notbe able to come. :O(
I wish you all a wonderful meeting!!

Valete,

Scipio



--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@...> wrote:
> Salve Amice!
>
> I really look forward to the Rally and will be happy to see You and
> all other citizens! ;-)
>
> >Salvete Omnes,
> >
> >the event is close, 1 week to the International meeting of Nova
> >Romans in Bologna (Provincia Italia) from 1st to 3rd August.
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Senior Consul et Senator
> Propraetor Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Cohors Consulis CFQ
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
>
>


__________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13379 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: The Brigantes and Rome
The name 'Brigantes' is translated as 'The People of Brigit'.

Is anyone familiar with the stories of the Brigantes other than the
basic facts?
Any additional info would be appreicated.
This is what i found and am not sure if it is close to the truth.

Aulus Didius Gallus was governor between 52-7, appointed on the death
in office of Ostorius Scapula. Didius Gallus was an experienced
senior soldier who had participated in the invasion of Britain. His
instructions seem to have been to hold, control, and consolidate the
Welsh frontier and to avoid campaigning deep within Wales. For this
important but unspectacular work he received Tacitus' opprobrium,
even though his long tenure in the post suggests he was competent and
successful. Didius Gallus was also confronted with a split between
the pro-Roman Brigantian queen Cartimandua and her anti-Roman husband
Venutius.

Cartimandua One of only two British women to be mentioned in the
ancient sources, the other was Boudicca. she was the leading noble of
the Brigantian tribe who was probably granted a clientship with Rome
in 43AD, along with her consort Venutius.

During the spring of 48AD, political pressure from certain rebels
within the Brigantian upper classes forced Scapula to abandon his
campaign against the Ordovices in north Wales, and turn his attention
to the Brigantes. Cartimandua captured the Catuvellaunian leader
Caratacus, then honoured her agreement with Rome by surrendering him
to Scapula.

This action seems to have instigated resentment towards the rule of
Cartimandua within the Brigantes, which for a period, lurked beneath
the surface of the seemingly calm tribal period. In 53AD, Venutius
divorced Cartimandua and formed a sub-tribe of his own, attacking
Cartimandua's base and causing the new Roman governor, Aulus Didius
Gallus to send a number of auxiliary cohorts to her aid.

Cartimandua continued to rule the Brigantes for a number of years
with her own armour-bearer, Vellocatus, as her consort. However, the
discontent was still growing in the ranks of the Brigantian rulers
for another rebellion occurred during the governorship of Marcus
Vettius Bolanus around 70AD. During this uprising, Cartimandua had to
be rescued by an ala of Roman auxiliary cavalry sent specifically for
this purpose by the governor who was occupied against the Silures in
south Wales. This continuing Brigantian unrest caused the emperor
Vespasian to ceasel the clientship of the Brigantes and they came
under the direct rule of Rome.

Venutius Was the consort of Queen Cartimandua, possibly since before
she became a client of Claudius in 43AD. All was not well, for during
the governorship of Aulus Didius Gallus, sometime between 52AD and
57AD, he divorced her.

Cartimandua's treatment of Caratacus in 51AD could have been one
possible reason for his decision. Whatever the cause, Venutius
proceeded to wage war on his ex-spouse with his own rival Brigantian
people. The new governor was forced to send several cohorts to her
aid, until the forces under the command of Venutius were eventually
defeated in a final battle.

Vellocatus The shield-bearer of Cartimandua, who became her lover
after her consort Venutius divorced her, around 55AD. He lived
possibly until after 70AD when another Brigantian rebellion forced
Cartimandua to seek the protection of the Roman governor, leading to
the ending of the clientship and the start of direct rule by Rome.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13380 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes during the
Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not Rome. The
evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more difinitive
proof that this was not the case.
Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease my mind.

Here is an excerpt:
It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators may have
underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the equals
of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship. There
is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used infanticide
as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon practice
used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from Roman burial
sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths, and of
a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female; a
continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that cannot be
explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers. The
indications here may be that Romans valued male children more highly
than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice was to
be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and throughout
world history.
Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire were equal
to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with Cartimandua
Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during the
rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's son
Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to the
Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In the case
of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of local
Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of governor
and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation. They
reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had been
defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and assumed
control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13381 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Avete Omnes,

And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the same
thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced Population
control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is not up
to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on our level
of technology.

If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had modern
abortions they would have used them instead of infancide

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes during the
> Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
> controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
> barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not Rome.
The
> evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more difinitive
> proof that this was not the case.
> Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease my mind.
>
> Here is an excerpt:
> It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators may
have
> underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the
equals
> of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship. There
> is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
infanticide
> as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon practice
> used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from Roman
burial
> sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths, and
of
> a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female; a
> continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that cannot
be
> explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers. The
> indications here may be that Romans valued male children more
highly
> than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice was to
> be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and throughout
> world history.
> Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire were
equal
> to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with Cartimandua
> Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during the
> rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's son
> Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to the
> Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In the
case
> of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of local
> Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of governor
> and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation. They
> reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had been
> defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and assumed
> control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13382 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Salve Marce Octavi,

I thank you for your swift reply. You state that every
PATERFAMILIAS was asked (by mail)to register their gens in May and
that you find no record of my having done so. However, with
respect, honoured GERMANICVS, how could I have been expected to know
this or respond to it? I have already been at pains to point out in
previous posts that for the last 6-7 months I have been absent for
personal reasons from NOVA ROMA, during that time I have not had my
own PC nor access to one. I repeat one of my original questions:
what provision/ contingency was there/ is there amongst either the
CENSORES or any relavent LEX for a CIVIS recently returned and in my
position? I honestly wonder how many other CIVES have been affected
similarly?

Presently, I only have occasional access to a PC, but I'm still
trying to be active and participate constructively; if, for this
reason I miss a public post, will I as PATERFAMILIAS receive a
private post in matters impinging upon or regarding GENTES or is it
simply a case of 'hard luck'? Please note, honoured Censor, ALL
post should come to me at cybernaut911@... until I notify
the CENSORES differently.

May I also sincerely thank you for your equally swift remedial
action in restoring my GENS. and my status as PATERFAMILIAS of GENS.
CALIDIA. On the matter of the change in tribal name and number, I
note, and now accept, that the responsibility for this change
resides properly with the QVAESTORES, is determined by financial
consideration ID EST payment of tax. I shall ERGO trouble you no
further on this point, save to say that whatever magistrates were
involved and whether payment has or has not been made, any change to
the the defining information of a GENS. should, in my view, be
communicated, at the very least, to the relevant PATERFAMILIAS - in
this matter that should have been the QVAESTORES.

I thank you for your honest acknowledgement of the fact I had,
indeed, contacted the CENSORES on three occasions RE POMPONIA FABIA
VERA ATTICA unofficially aka URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA. Naturally, I
accept your gracious apology for not responding. For this, your
speedy re-establishment of my GENS. CALIDIA and my status as
PATERFAMILIAS, I now consider my honour satisfied and my DIGNITAS
fully restored.

You should understand though, this was my first attempt at
sponsoring/ accepting a new CIVIS into my GENS. It was new
territory for me since my GENS. has one member - me. It has not
been a happy experience, not one I would wish to repeat nor, for
that matter, as a new PATERFAMILIAS, could I recommend my experience
to other CIVES as professional, helpful or enriching. Remember as a
new PATERFAMILIAS I need as much help and guidance from the CENSORES
as any of the CIVES that may be intending to join my GENS. What I
truly hope, and now respectfully ask, is that if I am asked to and
do attempt to sponsor another CIVIS into GENS. CALIDIA, in the
future, that my treatment and standing as PATERFAMILIAS will be
considered and respected and that such decisons that the honoured
CENSORES may make, will be clearly and timeously communicated to me.

Finally, I should still like to know why my GENS. was considered
defunct/ inactive - was it simply based on the strength of my non-
reply to your mail last May or are there other criteria, and if the
latter is the case, what are these?

Vale


M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
PATERFAMILIAS


TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLIA ROMANAE

"VERTIAS LVX MEA"



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
>
> Salve Marce Calidi,
>
> > Honoured Censors, I have just been to the ALBVM GENTIVM on my
way to
> > pick up my voter card, and I now find that gens. CALIDIA is no
> > longer listed. Why, and why have you not sought my comments/
> > opinion as PATERFAMILIAS or at the very least informed me?
>
> Every paterfamilias was asked to register their gens by visiting a
> URL that was mailed out in may. I see no record of you having
done so.
> Nor can I find mail from cybernaut911@ or MLCRASSVS@ requesting
> registration of the gens.
>
> I have now re-created the gens and restored your status as
paterfamilias.
>
> > I found that you had unilaterally and without
> > notice, changed me from ASSIDVVS to CAPITE CENSI and my tribal
name
> > and number from PVPINA, XXIII (Rural)to CATILINA, XXXIII (Urban).
>
> This has nothing to do with the Censores. If you did make a
payment,
> contact the Quaestores to find out what happened to it.
>
> > Furthermore, I have written to you, as PATERFAMILIAS, on no less
> > than 3 occasions (twice privately, once publicly)RE citizenship
> > approval in respect of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA (now POMPONIA
> > ATTICA).
>
> In this matter, you are correct; you wrote to us on June 27th and
> July 10th, and I apologize for not processing her approval in time.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> http://www.graveyards.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13383 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: Harvard Classics Poetry Recital
Salve Scaure,
gratias tibi ago; I had the good fortune of hearing Professor Nagy
lecture on the Iliad, eheu I should have switched my major to
Classics as my dear friend and classmate had urged. Thanks to the
good cives here I need not repine!
optem vale, Pomponia Fabia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to the "Harvard Classics Poetry Recital":
>
> http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~classics/poetry_and_prose/poetry.html
>
> Included in this are sound files of Harvard Classics Dept. faculty
> reciting the poetry of Homer, Ovid, Propertius, Statius, and
Catullus
> and a prose selection from Cicero's "First Oration against
Catilina."
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13384 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
I'm sorry, I must be slow today. What was the answer to my question?
I don't remember making a comparison to abortion or technology and
loosly it would have been to the purpose of producing more of one
gender.
So, talk to me like a 12 year old and explain to me in simple worrds
the anser to my question
or
You totally misread the question and decided to use this platform to
step up to a soap box and give your oppinion.
In that case:
Next please?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the same
> thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced Population
> control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is not up
> to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on our
level
> of technology.
>
> If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had modern
> abortions they would have used them instead of infancide
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes during
the
> > Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
> > controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
> > barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not Rome.
> The
> > evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more difinitive
> > proof that this was not the case.
> > Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease my
mind.
> >
> > Here is an excerpt:
> > It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators may
> have
> > underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the
> equals
> > of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship.
There
> > is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
> infanticide
> > as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon
practice
> > used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from Roman
> burial
> > sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths, and
> of
> > a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female; a
> > continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that cannot
> be
> > explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers. The
> > indications here may be that Romans valued male children more
> highly
> > than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice was
to
> > be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and
throughout
> > world history.
> > Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire were
> equal
> > to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with
Cartimandua
> > Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during the
> > rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's son
> > Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to the
> > Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In the
> case
> > of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of local
> > Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of
governor
> > and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation. They
> > reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had been
> > defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and assumed
> > control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13385 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
P.S.
If my comment of killing female babies for the sake of having male
ones is likened to abortion for the same reason and furthermore
relates to my comment of it being barbaric was taken as being
judgemental - DAMN STRAIGHT it is!
I believe in abortion for the proper reasons not for the sake of
killing a life in the hopes of having a different sex for the child.
Sue me for being judgemental in this case - I am guilty and proud of
it.
Barbaric and uncivilized in any century!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> I'm sorry, I must be slow today. What was the answer to my
question?
> I don't remember making a comparison to abortion or technology and
> loosly it would have been to the purpose of producing more of one
> gender.
> So, talk to me like a 12 year old and explain to me in simple
worrds
> the anser to my question
> or
> You totally misread the question and decided to use this platform
to
> step up to a soap box and give your oppinion.
> In that case:
> Next please?
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Avete Omnes,
> >
> > And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the same
> > thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced Population
> > control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is not
up
> > to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on our
> level
> > of technology.
> >
> > If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had modern
> > abortions they would have used them instead of infancide
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes during
> the
> > > Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
> > > controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
> > > barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not
Rome.
> > The
> > > evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more
difinitive
> > > proof that this was not the case.
> > > Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease my
> mind.
> > >
> > > Here is an excerpt:
> > > It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators may
> > have
> > > underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the
> > equals
> > > of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship.
> There
> > > is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
> > infanticide
> > > as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon
> practice
> > > used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from Roman
> > burial
> > > sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths,
and
> > of
> > > a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female; a
> > > continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that
cannot
> > be
> > > explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers.
The
> > > indications here may be that Romans valued male children more
> > highly
> > > than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice
was
> to
> > > be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and
> throughout
> > > world history.
> > > Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire were
> > equal
> > > to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with
> Cartimandua
> > > Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during
the
> > > rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's son
> > > Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to
the
> > > Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In the
> > case
> > > of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of
local
> > > Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of
> governor
> > > and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation. They
> > > reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had
been
> > > defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and
assumed
> > > control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13386 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
No you came in here on a high horse talking about a, and I quote you,
"barbaric custom".

Today in China abortions are far more likely on Female fetuses than
Male Fetuses. In the USA there is a wory that sex tests will have a
similar result. People who use the crude methods of sex selection we
have today are attempting to generate male offspring 75% of the time.

The Romans practiced Infancide, pretty much like moderns practice
abortions. Males were more highly valued in Roma, just like they are
more valued in many modern cultures, and would have been less likely
to be exposed than the females. This wasn't part of a plan to increase
the number of males in the society, it was the sum of indiviual choices.

So before you start yelling "barbaric custom", you need to realize
that we are just as "barbaric" differing from the romans only in the
technology we use, not in our ends.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> I'm sorry, I must be slow today. What was the answer to my question?
> I don't remember making a comparison to abortion or technology and
> loosly it would have been to the purpose of producing more of one
> gender.
> So, talk to me like a 12 year old and explain to me in simple worrds
> the anser to my question
> or
> You totally misread the question and decided to use this platform to
> step up to a soap box and give your oppinion.
> In that case:
> Next please?
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Avete Omnes,
> >
> > And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the same
> > thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced Population
> > control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is not up
> > to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on our
> level
> > of technology.
> >
> > If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had modern
> > abortions they would have used them instead of infancide
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes during
> the
> > > Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
> > > controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
> > > barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not Rome.
> > The
> > > evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more difinitive
> > > proof that this was not the case.
> > > Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease my
> mind.
> > >
> > > Here is an excerpt:
> > > It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators may
> > have
> > > underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the
> > equals
> > > of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship.
> There
> > > is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
> > infanticide
> > > as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon
> practice
> > > used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from Roman
> > burial
> > > sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths, and
> > of
> > > a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female; a
> > > continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that cannot
> > be
> > > explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers. The
> > > indications here may be that Romans valued male children more
> > highly
> > > than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice was
> to
> > > be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and
> throughout
> > > world history.
> > > Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire were
> > equal
> > > to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with
> Cartimandua
> > > Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during the
> > > rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's son
> > > Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to the
> > > Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In the
> > case
> > > of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of local
> > > Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of
> governor
> > > and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation. They
> > > reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had been
> > > defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and assumed
> > > control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13387 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
No, the question was if it was truly practiced or an assumption on
the part of the article cited.
The reference to barbaric custom was a personal one which I do stand
by.
High horse has nothing to do with it.
I do feel it is a barbaric custom in any time whether today in China
or 2000 years ago in Rome.
Life to me is sacred and to indiscriminantly choose one life over
another for those reasons is just not right.
I still would like an answer to A if one is known.
B was brought upby another and required a counter reply.+
Please don't misinterpret the question with a minor personal comment
which clouds the original question.
Regardless of my oppinion on the custom, I am still interested in an
answer to the question.
I wasn't "yelling" barbaric custom if you re-read the question.
It seems to be a common practice in the lists of selective reading
which changes the nature of the topic.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> No you came in here on a high horse talking about a, and I quote
you,
> "barbaric custom".
>
> Today in China abortions are far more likely on Female fetuses than
> Male Fetuses. In the USA there is a wory that sex tests will have a
> similar result. People who use the crude methods of sex selection we
> have today are attempting to generate male offspring 75% of the
time.
>
> The Romans practiced Infancide, pretty much like moderns practice
> abortions. Males were more highly valued in Roma, just like they are
> more valued in many modern cultures, and would have been less likely
> to be exposed than the females. This wasn't part of a plan to
increase
> the number of males in the society, it was the sum of indiviual
choices.
>
> So before you start yelling "barbaric custom", you need to realize
> that we are just as "barbaric" differing from the romans only in the
> technology we use, not in our ends.
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13388 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
P.S.
When you say "we" are just as barbaric, I'm sureyou mean todays
society and not you and I for I am certainly not and wouls like to
think the same of you.
As to todays society, surely there are those who follow this line of
thinking and wrong or not, I would stand by my oppinion that it is
barbaric and am not arguing the point that it was, is and may
continue to be done.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> No, the question was if it was truly practiced or an assumption on
> the part of the article cited.
> The reference to barbaric custom was a personal one which I do
stand
> by.
> High horse has nothing to do with it.
> I do feel it is a barbaric custom in any time whether today in
China
> or 2000 years ago in Rome.
> Life to me is sacred and to indiscriminantly choose one life over
> another for those reasons is just not right.
> I still would like an answer to A if one is known.
> B was brought upby another and required a counter reply.+
> Please don't misinterpret the question with a minor personal
comment
> which clouds the original question.
> Regardless of my oppinion on the custom, I am still interested in
an
> answer to the question.
> I wasn't "yelling" barbaric custom if you re-read the question.
> It seems to be a common practice in the lists of selective reading
> which changes the nature of the topic.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > No you came in here on a high horse talking about a, and I quote
> you,
> > "barbaric custom".
> >
> > Today in China abortions are far more likely on Female fetuses
than
> > Male Fetuses. In the USA there is a wory that sex tests will have
a
> > similar result. People who use the crude methods of sex selection
we
> > have today are attempting to generate male offspring 75% of the
> time.
> >
> > The Romans practiced Infancide, pretty much like moderns practice
> > abortions. Males were more highly valued in Roma, just like they
are
> > more valued in many modern cultures, and would have been less
likely
> > to be exposed than the females. This wasn't part of a plan to
> increase
> > the number of males in the society, it was the sum of indiviual
> choices.
> >
> > So before you start yelling "barbaric custom", you need to realize
> > that we are just as "barbaric" differing from the romans only in
the
> > technology we use, not in our ends.
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13389 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Salvete Marce et omnes,

I have a free moment here and just wanted to make a comment on this
whole discussion. I do think the Romans did not have the technology,
aside from toxic herbs to terminate a pregnency. I'm sure they would
have done so in place of infanticide had they the medical knowledge.

In modern times, the courts have established all over Norh America
that it is the woman's right to have control over her body and be
entitled to recieve treatment for abortion is she wishes. A few guys
in Canada argued that they should have a say in keeping the child
since they are financially responsible if the women chooses to keep
it. Sounds logical but the idea was quashed in one case and left in
limbo on the other so again, it is the woman's business and her body.

Now the East Indian community on your west coast a few years ago had
many women going for Ultra Sounds to determine the sex of their baby.
Since a male is far more desirable for various cutural reasons, the
women would go for the abortion if the fetus was a girl. Now some of
the women's rights leader were beying like wolves over this and
wanted the doctors to stop ultra sounds. Again, a fetus is deemed to
have no human rights so if a women is beaten and loses her baby or
loses the fetus through an negligent act, it is interesting that
there have been a number of cases where manslaughter or murder
charges were filed for the death of the fetus.

Again, the fetus is not human and has no rights, again it is the
woman's decision to carry the fetus or not. Based on that, the above
situations cannot be rectified because logically speaking, you cannot
have it both ways. That is, just the criteria of "wanting" a child
cannot determine its human viability as does biology, religious ideas
etc.


Regards,

Quintus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> P.S.
> If my comment of killing female babies for the sake of having male
> ones is likened to abortion for the same reason and furthermore
> relates to my comment of it being barbaric was taken as being
> judgemental - DAMN STRAIGHT it is!
> I believe in abortion for the proper reasons not for the sake of
> killing a life in the hopes of having a different sex for the child.
> Sue me for being judgemental in this case - I am guilty and proud
of
> it.
> Barbaric and uncivilized in any century!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > I'm sorry, I must be slow today. What was the answer to my
> question?
> > I don't remember making a comparison to abortion or technology
and
> > loosly it would have been to the purpose of producing more of one
> > gender.
> > So, talk to me like a 12 year old and explain to me in simple
> worrds
> > the anser to my question
> > or
> > You totally misread the question and decided to use this platform
> to
> > step up to a soap box and give your oppinion.
> > In that case:
> > Next please?
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine"
<alexious@e...>
> > wrote:
> > > Avete Omnes,
> > >
> > > And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the same
> > > thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced
Population
> > > control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is
not
> up
> > > to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on our
> > level
> > > of technology.
> > >
> > > If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had modern
> > > abortions they would have used them instead of infancide
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > > While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes
during
> > the
> > > > Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
> > > > controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
> > > > barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not
> Rome.
> > > The
> > > > evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more
> difinitive
> > > > proof that this was not the case.
> > > > Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease
my
> > mind.
> > > >
> > > > Here is an excerpt:
> > > > It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators
may
> > > have
> > > > underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the
> > > equals
> > > > of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship.
> > There
> > > > is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
> > > infanticide
> > > > as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon
> > practice
> > > > used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from
Roman
> > > burial
> > > > sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths,
> and
> > > of
> > > > a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female;
a
> > > > continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that
> cannot
> > > be
> > > > explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers.
> The
> > > > indications here may be that Romans valued male children more
> > > highly
> > > > than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice
> was
> > to
> > > > be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and
> > throughout
> > > > world history.
> > > > Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire
were
> > > equal
> > > > to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with
> > Cartimandua
> > > > Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during
> the
> > > > rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's
son
> > > > Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to
> the
> > > > Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In
the
> > > case
> > > > of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of
> local
> > > > Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of
> > governor
> > > > and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation.
They
> > > > reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had
> been
> > > > defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and
> assumed
> > > > control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13390 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
The Romans would have considered you the Barbarian. A Female without a
dowery was doomed to a poor marriage. If you allready had a Daughter
and produced a second Daughter, often either she would have no Dowery,
or you would have to harm the daughter you allready had by lessening
her dowery.

You are following the "barbaric" custom of looking at indiviuals,
rather than the "civilized" custom of placing the needs of the family
above the needs of an indiviual.

2000 years from now many of the things you beleave will be considered
"barbaric". There are few things as unfair as applying current moral
judgements to peoples who never heard of your basis for making those
judgements.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> No, the question was if it was truly practiced or an assumption on
> the part of the article cited.
> The reference to barbaric custom was a personal one which I do stand
> by.
> High horse has nothing to do with it.
> I do feel it is a barbaric custom in any time whether today in China
> or 2000 years ago in Rome.
> Life to me is sacred and to indiscriminantly choose one life over
> another for those reasons is just not right.
> I still would like an answer to A if one is known.
> B was brought upby another and required a counter reply.+
> Please don't misinterpret the question with a minor personal comment
> which clouds the original question.
> Regardless of my oppinion on the custom, I am still interested in an
> answer to the question.
> I wasn't "yelling" barbaric custom if you re-read the question.
> It seems to be a common practice in the lists of selective reading
> which changes the nature of the topic.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > No you came in here on a high horse talking about a, and I quote
> you,
> > "barbaric custom".
> >
> > Today in China abortions are far more likely on Female fetuses than
> > Male Fetuses. In the USA there is a wory that sex tests will have a
> > similar result. People who use the crude methods of sex selection we
> > have today are attempting to generate male offspring 75% of the
> time.
> >
> > The Romans practiced Infancide, pretty much like moderns practice
> > abortions. Males were more highly valued in Roma, just like they are
> > more valued in many modern cultures, and would have been less likely
> > to be exposed than the females. This wasn't part of a plan to
> increase
> > the number of males in the society, it was the sum of indiviual
> choices.
> >
> > So before you start yelling "barbaric custom", you need to realize
> > that we are just as "barbaric" differing from the romans only in the
> > technology we use, not in our ends.
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13391 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Ave,

So, you are also calling women in today's world who have abortions as
barbaric as well. Because women can have abortions today for any
reason.

I jumped on your post because quite frankly I think you do a
disservice to compare the norms of an ancient society based on our
norms.

If you are going to compare apples to oranges, then please be
expected to face the appropriate criticism. Because IMHO, its
wrong. Are you going to compare women's rights now as opposed to
ancient Rome next? Because lest we forget women probably had more
freedom in Rome than they did in the United States up til the 1920s
(less than 100 years ago). Women in ancient Rome could own property,
make wills, and had dowerys to make certain that they had funds if
their marriage ended in divorce. And while women could not vote in
ancient Rome they could not in most countries til earlier this
century (They couldnt in Switzerland, Iirc til after WWII). But
instead, of debating which society is better, I will just abide
myself with your own statement as you stated below: "Sue me for being
judgemental in this case - I am guilty and proud of it." Whereas I
do not judge because both the ancient society(ies) and our modern
society utilize abortion.

Because I do not think that their practice is barbaric at all, they
acted the same as we do today. Their limitation was one of
technology. Our modern society has the means of ending pregancy
earlier, if the ancients had that technology they would have utilized
it as well. And the result would be the same. The baby (or fetus)
dies. I do not rationalize the motive of the party involved because
the result is the same.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> P.S.
> If my comment of killing female babies for the sake of having male
> ones is likened to abortion for the same reason and furthermore
> relates to my comment of it being barbaric was taken as being
> judgemental - DAMN STRAIGHT it is!
> I believe in abortion for the proper reasons not for the sake of
> killing a life in the hopes of having a different sex for the child.
> Sue me for being judgemental in this case - I am guilty and proud
of
> it.
> Barbaric and uncivilized in any century!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > I'm sorry, I must be slow today. What was the answer to my
> question?
> > I don't remember making a comparison to abortion or technology
and
> > loosly it would have been to the purpose of producing more of one
> > gender.
> > So, talk to me like a 12 year old and explain to me in simple
> worrds
> > the anser to my question
> > or
> > You totally misread the question and decided to use this platform
> to
> > step up to a soap box and give your oppinion.
> > In that case:
> > Next please?
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine"
<alexious@e...>
> > wrote:
> > > Avete Omnes,
> > >
> > > And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the same
> > > thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced
Population
> > > control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is
not
> up
> > > to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on our
> > level
> > > of technology.
> > >
> > > If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had modern
> > > abortions they would have used them instead of infancide
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > > While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes
during
> > the
> > > > Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied to
> > > > controll the female population. I had thought this seemingly
> > > > barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not
> Rome.
> > > The
> > > > evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more
> difinitive
> > > > proof that this was not the case.
> > > > Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease
my
> > mind.
> > > >
> > > > Here is an excerpt:
> > > > It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators
may
> > > have
> > > > underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as the
> > > equals
> > > > of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for citizenship.
> > There
> > > > is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
> > > infanticide
> > > > as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon
> > practice
> > > > used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from
Roman
> > > burial
> > > > sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby deaths,
> and
> > > of
> > > > a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to female;
a
> > > > continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that
> cannot
> > > be
> > > > explained by the argument that many could have been soldiers.
> The
> > > > indications here may be that Romans valued male children more
> > > highly
> > > > than female children if circumstances demanded that a choice
> was
> > to
> > > > be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and
> > throughout
> > > > world history.
> > > > Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire
were
> > > equal
> > > > to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with
> > Cartimandua
> > > > Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome during
> the
> > > > rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's
son
> > > > Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled to
> the
> > > > Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In
the
> > > case
> > > > of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of
> local
> > > > Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of
> > governor
> > > > and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation.
They
> > > > reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had
> been
> > > > defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and
> assumed
> > > > control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13392 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Thanks so much for the information Quintus.
I appreciate the way you related it also.
From the article I read, it appeared that the children were not
aborted but that their deaths occured after the birth when they knew
what the sex was.
I'm sure that had they had amnio or sonograms to determine this
sooner and the means to, they would not have had to wait the full
term (if in fact this was the practice of the time which is still
uncertain and prompted the original question).
I also am fully aware of my personal beliefs in this. Whether I am
wrong or right is not a question, I know there will be those who
dissagree with it and they may do so. My oppinion was not an attack
yet was taken as one, thus the defense.
Thanks for bringin balance back.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete Marce et omnes,
>
> I have a free moment here and just wanted to make a comment on this
> whole discussion. I do think the Romans did not have the
technology,
> aside from toxic herbs to terminate a pregnency. I'm sure they
would
> have done so in place of infanticide had they the medical knowledge.
>
> In modern times, the courts have established all over Norh America
> that it is the woman's right to have control over her body and be
> entitled to recieve treatment for abortion is she wishes. A few
guys
> in Canada argued that they should have a say in keeping the child
> since they are financially responsible if the women chooses to keep
> it. Sounds logical but the idea was quashed in one case and left in
> limbo on the other so again, it is the woman's business and her
body.
>
> Now the East Indian community on your west coast a few years ago
had
> many women going for Ultra Sounds to determine the sex of their
baby.
> Since a male is far more desirable for various cutural reasons, the
> women would go for the abortion if the fetus was a girl. Now some
of
> the women's rights leader were beying like wolves over this and
> wanted the doctors to stop ultra sounds. Again, a fetus is deemed
to
> have no human rights so if a women is beaten and loses her baby or
> loses the fetus through an negligent act, it is interesting that
> there have been a number of cases where manslaughter or murder
> charges were filed for the death of the fetus.
>
> Again, the fetus is not human and has no rights, again it is the
> woman's decision to carry the fetus or not. Based on that, the
above
> situations cannot be rectified because logically speaking, you
cannot
> have it both ways. That is, just the criteria of "wanting" a child
> cannot determine its human viability as does biology, religious
ideas
> etc.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13393 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
So be it.
I don't mind being considered barbaric by not participating in any
tradition that takes the life of an innocent. I'd rather be barbaric
in this case than the civilised killer.
No matter how you try to phrase it, I will accept being called
uncivilized or barbarian - those names can not hurt me, you can't
change the fact that the taking of an innocent life for whatever the
reason is wrong, lol, it just is.
Ethically? Morally? or because society says it it? You can not
change the nature of truth. Yes, it will be compared to the times
and the needs and may be considered acceptable behavior for the
situation but it will still be wrong.
Don't confuse the fact that I don't understand the situation with the
fact that I don't approve of the practice. I do understand and for
all academic conversation will speak of the facts if you wish
unemotionally. Just don't try to convince me that killing babies is
right; only acceptable.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> The Romans would have considered you the Barbarian. A Female
without a
> dowery was doomed to a poor marriage. If you allready had a Daughter
> and produced a second Daughter, often either she would have no
Dowery,
> or you would have to harm the daughter you allready had by lessening
> her dowery.
>
> You are following the "barbaric" custom of looking at indiviuals,
> rather than the "civilized" custom of placing the needs of the
family
> above the needs of an indiviual.
>
> 2000 years from now many of the things you beleave will be
considered
> "barbaric". There are few things as unfair as applying current moral
> judgements to peoples who never heard of your basis for making those
> judgements.
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13394 From: lanius117@aol.com Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: translation of Italian to English
Salvete omnes,

I would like to have the information below translated from Italian into
English. Are there any cives out there who can help me?

Thanks in advance,

Valete

G. Lanius Falco
******************************************************************************
************


AQUILA REALE - Aquila chrysaetos

Classe: Uccelli
Ordine: Accipitriformi
Famiglia: Accipitridi
Morfologia: grosso uccello rapace diurno presente sulle Alpi (peso 3,5/5 Kg,
apertura alare 2/2,2 m). L'adulto presenta colorazione bruno-scura, con piume
dorate nella parte superiore del collo. I soggetti giovani, o comunque
sub-adulti, presentano ampie macchie chiare con barrature sotto le ali e sotto la
coda.
Habitat: vive nell'ambiente di alta montagna (praterie d'alta quota),
popolato da camosci, caprioli, marmotte e lepri.
Alimentazione: caccia attivamente medie e grosse prede (marmotte, lepri ed in
qualche caso piccoli di camoscio e capriolo). Sopporta anche lunghi periodi
di digiuno (stagione invernale):
Abitudini: è stanziale e vive in coppie che nidificano su pareti
inaccessibili. I piccoli (1 o 2) nascono dopo circa 45 giorni di cova e vengono nutriti da
entrambi i genitori; sono in grado di volare dopo 70/80 giorni.
Localizzazione: prerogativa della specie è quella di sorvolare aree molto
vaste per procurarsi il cibo; nel Parco della Lessinia è usuale vedere l'aquila
reale volare nel cielo in quanto una coppia di questo stupendo rapace si sposta
abitualmente dal Monte Baldo alla Lessinia, al Carega e al Pasubio; negli
ultimi anni ha ripreso a nidificare anche nelle zone più impervie del nostro
Parco.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13395 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Earlier you said "I believe in abortion for the proper reasons"

Now you say "the fact that the taking of an innocent life for whatever
the reason is wrong"

Abortion is as much "taking of an innocent life" as Roman infancide
was. Most modern Abortions happen in the first trimester. The Romans
did it at the start of the "fourth trimester". That is the primary
difference.

BTW exposure wasn't as sure a death as abortion. People did take in
exposed healthy infants to raise as thier own if it met the needs of
thier family or to sell them as slaves.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> So be it.
> I don't mind being considered barbaric by not participating in any
> tradition that takes the life of an innocent. I'd rather be barbaric
> in this case than the civilised killer.
> No matter how you try to phrase it, I will accept being called
> uncivilized or barbarian - those names can not hurt me, you can't
> change the fact that the taking of an innocent life for whatever the
> reason is wrong, lol, it just is.
> Ethically? Morally? or because society says it it? You can not
> change the nature of truth. Yes, it will be compared to the times
> and the needs and may be considered acceptable behavior for the
> situation but it will still be wrong.
> Don't confuse the fact that I don't understand the situation with the
> fact that I don't approve of the practice. I do understand and for
> all academic conversation will speak of the facts if you wish
> unemotionally. Just don't try to convince me that killing babies is
> right; only acceptable.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > The Romans would have considered you the Barbarian. A Female
> without a
> > dowery was doomed to a poor marriage. If you allready had a Daughter
> > and produced a second Daughter, often either she would have no
> Dowery,
> > or you would have to harm the daughter you allready had by lessening
> > her dowery.
> >
> > You are following the "barbaric" custom of looking at indiviuals,
> > rather than the "civilized" custom of placing the needs of the
> family
> > above the needs of an indiviual.
> >
> > 2000 years from now many of the things you beleave will be
> considered
> > "barbaric". There are few things as unfair as applying current moral
> > judgements to peoples who never heard of your basis for making those
> > judgements.
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13396 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Oh, please, pay attention to the posts and stop reading your own
version, Herbert!
If you persist in this, the matter between us will not be open for
discussion and you can be excused.
I will explain this to you one last time in the hopes of keeping you
in the loop but my patients grows thin.
Stop trying to put words in my mouth, I do a good job of stating my
oppinion clearly without having you rewrite them to suit your purpose.
The conversation was about ancient Rome and if I'm not mistaken YOU
brought up abortions in modern times so DO NOT pull that SPIN TALK
CLAP with me!
Take example from Drusus - he disagrees and is heatedly enthusiastic
but keeps mainly to the facts of my posts and he is a challenge for
me which I enjoy - not a bother!

If a woman has an abortion for strictly personal/selfish reasons like
she wanted a girl instead of a boy - yes, I and I mean only I call it
barbaric. If it is for health reasons for her or the child, I
accept the act though regret the fact.

Lastly I will not get roped into what is considered acceptable by
society and what is just plain wrong.
I explained this already.
I don't ask you to be of the same mind but don't attack me when you
mean to dissagree with me. I can play that game to, I've been here
long enough to learn the rules and I have had good teachers by
example.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> So, you are also calling women in today's world who have abortions
as
> barbaric as well. Because women can have abortions today for any
> reason.
>
> I jumped on your post because quite frankly I think you do a
> disservice to compare the norms of an ancient society based on our
> norms.
>
> If you are going to compare apples to oranges, then please be
> expected to face the appropriate criticism. Because IMHO, its
> wrong. Are you going to compare women's rights now as opposed to
> ancient Rome next? Because lest we forget women probably had more
> freedom in Rome than they did in the United States up til the 1920s
> (less than 100 years ago). Women in ancient Rome could own
property,
> make wills, and had dowerys to make certain that they had funds if
> their marriage ended in divorce. And while women could not vote in
> ancient Rome they could not in most countries til earlier this
> century (They couldnt in Switzerland, Iirc til after WWII). But
> instead, of debating which society is better, I will just abide
> myself with your own statement as you stated below: "Sue me for
being
> judgemental in this case - I am guilty and proud of it." Whereas I
> do not judge because both the ancient society(ies) and our modern
> society utilize abortion.
>
> Because I do not think that their practice is barbaric at all, they
> acted the same as we do today. Their limitation was one of
> technology. Our modern society has the means of ending pregancy
> earlier, if the ancients had that technology they would have
utilized
> it as well. And the result would be the same. The baby (or fetus)
> dies. I do not rationalize the motive of the party involved
because
> the result is the same.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > P.S.
> > If my comment of killing female babies for the sake of having
male
> > ones is likened to abortion for the same reason and furthermore
> > relates to my comment of it being barbaric was taken as being
> > judgemental - DAMN STRAIGHT it is!
> > I believe in abortion for the proper reasons not for the sake of
> > killing a life in the hopes of having a different sex for the
child.
> > Sue me for being judgemental in this case - I am guilty and proud
> of
> > it.
> > Barbaric and uncivilized in any century!
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > I'm sorry, I must be slow today. What was the answer to my
> > question?
> > > I don't remember making a comparison to abortion or technology
> and
> > > loosly it would have been to the purpose of producing more of
one
> > > gender.
> > > So, talk to me like a 12 year old and explain to me in simple
> > worrds
> > > the anser to my question
> > > or
> > > You totally misread the question and decided to use this
platform
> > to
> > > step up to a soap box and give your oppinion.
> > > In that case:
> > > Next please?
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine"
> <alexious@e...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Avete Omnes,
> > > >
> > > > And Infanticied differs from abortion? Its in essence the
same
> > > > thing. Romans (and other ancient societies) practiced
> Population
> > > > control with methods that reflected thier technology. It is
> not
> > up
> > > > to us to judge them, as we do the very same thing based on
our
> > > level
> > > > of technology.
> > > >
> > > > If they (the Romans or other ancinet Societies) had had
modern
> > > > abortions they would have used them instead of infancide
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius
Belisarius"
> > > > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > > > While researching information on Queens of the Brigantes
> during
> > > the
> > > > > Roman occupation I came across the practice of Infanticied
to
> > > > > controll the female population. I had thought this
seemingly
> > > > > barbaric custom was associated with other peoples but not
> > Rome.
> > > > The
> > > > > evidence is inconclusive but I had hoped to find more
> > difinitive
> > > > > proof that this was not the case.
> > > > > Can anyone provide more facts to the contrary so I can ease
> my
> > > mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is an excerpt:
> > > > > It could also be argued that the local Roman administrators
> may
> > > > have
> > > > > underestimated the position in society of Celtic women as
the
> > > > equals
> > > > > of men in power, Roman women did not qualify for
citizenship.
> > > There
> > > > > is some evidence, though not conclusive that Romans used
> > > > infanticide
> > > > > as a method of controlling the population, a not uncommon
> > > practice
> > > > > used by many peoples around the world. The evidence from
> Roman
> > > > burial
> > > > > sites indicates significant numbers of full term baby
deaths,
> > and
> > > > of
> > > > > a significantly larger ratio of adult male burials to
female;
> a
> > > > > continuing ratio into more settled and peaceful times that
> > cannot
> > > > be
> > > > > explained by the argument that many could have been
soldiers.
> > The
> > > > > indications here may be that Romans valued male children
more
> > > > highly
> > > > > than female children if circumstances demanded that a
choice
> > was
> > > to
> > > > > be made. This is consistent with practices elsewhere and
> > > throughout
> > > > > world history.
> > > > > Romans did accept that women in other parts of the empire
> were
> > > > equal
> > > > > to men. Claudius demonstrated this in his dealings with
> > > Cartimandua
> > > > > Queen of the Brigantes. She had remained loyal to Rome
during
> > the
> > > > > rebellion of the Silures and Ordovices led by Cunobelinus's
> son
> > > > > Caratacus. When the rebellion was crushed, Caratacus fled
to
> > the
> > > > > Brigantes but Cartimandua handed him over to the Romans. In
> the
> > > > case
> > > > > of the Iceni however, the indications are that elements of
> > local
> > > > > Roman government, temporarily freed from the attentions of
> > > governor
> > > > > and Emperor, felt able to take advantage of the situation.
> They
> > > > > reduced the power of the Iceni treating them as if they had
> > been
> > > > > defeated; they humiliated Boudicca and her daughters and
> > assumed
> > > > > control in the name of Rome of Iceni lands and wealth.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13397 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Agreed.
Yes, the proper reason I menat was if the pregnancy would harm the
mother or if there would be damage to the baby. There are tests
today that can show if the baby would be born with a disease or
unhealthy syndrome.
In that case I could see it happen but know this, in someones eyes, I
will surely appear barbaric and they may be right. That is an
acceptable case for me, as the sex determination is For the ancient
Romans (if practiced) in my oppinion.

We have gotten off the main topic because of the usage by me of
Barbaric but it was taken out of context as an insult to people of
today. I hope you see it wasn't meant that way but an observation in
(of course) my oppinion. My heavans! LOL, I hope that has finally
become clear as this topic is finally moving in the right direction,
lol.
Thank you.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Earlier you said "I believe in abortion for the proper reasons"
>
> Now you say "the fact that the taking of an innocent life for
whatever
> the reason is wrong"
>
> Abortion is as much "taking of an innocent life" as Roman infancide
> was. Most modern Abortions happen in the first trimester. The Romans
> did it at the start of the "fourth trimester". That is the primary
> difference.
>
> BTW exposure wasn't as sure a death as abortion. People did take in
> exposed healthy infants to raise as thier own if it met the needs of
> thier family or to sell them as slaves.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > So be it.
> > I don't mind being considered barbaric by not participating in
any
> > tradition that takes the life of an innocent. I'd rather be
barbaric
> > in this case than the civilised killer.
> > No matter how you try to phrase it, I will accept being called
> > uncivilized or barbarian - those names can not hurt me, you can't
> > change the fact that the taking of an innocent life for whatever
the
> > reason is wrong, lol, it just is.
> > Ethically? Morally? or because society says it it? You can not
> > change the nature of truth. Yes, it will be compared to the
times
> > and the needs and may be considered acceptable behavior for the
> > situation but it will still be wrong.
> > Don't confuse the fact that I don't understand the situation with
the
> > fact that I don't approve of the practice. I do understand and
for
> > all academic conversation will speak of the facts if you wish
> > unemotionally. Just don't try to convince me that killing babies
is
> > right; only acceptable.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > > The Romans would have considered you the Barbarian. A Female
> > without a
> > > dowery was doomed to a poor marriage. If you allready had a
Daughter
> > > and produced a second Daughter, often either she would have no
> > Dowery,
> > > or you would have to harm the daughter you allready had by
lessening
> > > her dowery.
> > >
> > > You are following the "barbaric" custom of looking at
indiviuals,
> > > rather than the "civilized" custom of placing the needs of the
> > family
> > > above the needs of an indiviual.
> > >
> > > 2000 years from now many of the things you beleave will be
> > considered
> > > "barbaric". There are few things as unfair as applying current
moral
> > > judgements to peoples who never heard of your basis for making
those
> > > judgements.
> > >
> > >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13398 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: translation of Italian to English
Salve Gai,

I went to babelfish and corrected as much grammar as I could. There
are a few unknown words or cofusing sentence translations but I think
we have the main drift.

Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, lanius117@a... wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I would like to have the information below translated from Italian
into
> English. Are there any cives out there who can help me?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Valete
>
> G. Lanius Falco
>
**********************************************************************
REAL AQUILA - Aquila chrysaetos Class: Birds Order: Accipitriformi
Family: Accipitridi Morphology: large bird rapace diurnal present on
the Alps (weight 3,5/5 Kg, wing span 2/2,2 m). The adult shows tawny-
dark coloration, with plume gilded in the advanced part of the neck.
The young adults, show widths clear spots with crossing under the
wings and the tail. Habitat: it lives in the higher mountain areas
populated by beaver and small animals. Feeding: hunting actively
medium and large prey (beavers, lepri and in some case small animals.
Sustains long periods of fast in the winter season: Habits: it builds
its nests on inaccessible walls where their young live. Small (1 or
2) chicks are born and after approximately 45 days of brooding and e
nourishment from both parents; they are in a position to flying after
70/80 days. Localization: The priority of the species is that one fly
over immense areas much for search of food; in the Park of the
Lessinia it is usual to see the Aquila Real to fly in the sky and see
how this wonderful one bird is moving habitually from once Self-
confident Mount to the Lessinia, to the Carega and the Pasubio; in
the last years it has resumed to nest also in the more remote and
less penetrable zones of our Park.












Translate again - Enter up to 150 words

AQUILA REALE - Aquila chrysaetos

Classe: Uccelli
Ordine: Accipitriformi
Famiglia: Accipitridi
Morfologia: grosso uccello rapace diurno presente sulle Alpi (peso
3,5/5 Kg,
apertura alare 2/2,2 m). L'adulto presenta colorazione bruno-scura,
con piume
dorate nella parte superiore del collo. I soggetti giovani, o
comunque
sub-adulti, presentano ampie macchie chiare con barrature sotto le
ali e sotto
la
coda.
Habitat: vive nell'ambiente di alta montagna (praterie d'alta quota),
popolato da camosci, caprioli, marmotte e lepri.
Alimentazione: caccia attivamente medie e grosse prede (marmotte,
lepri ed in
qualche caso piccoli di camoscio e capriolo). Sopporta anche lunghi
periodi
di digiuno (stagione invernale):
Abitudini: è stanziale e vive in coppie che nidificano su pareti
inaccessibili. I piccoli (1 o 2) nascono dopo circa 45 giorni di cova
e vengono
nutriti da
entrambi i genitori; sono in grado di volare dopo 70/80 giorni.
Localizzazione: prerogativa della specie è quella di sorvolare aree
molto
vaste per procurarsi il cibo; nel Parco della Lessinia è usuale
vedere l'aquila
reale volare nel cielo in quanto una coppia di questo stupendo rapace
si sposta
abitualmente dal Monte Baldo alla Lessinia, al Carega e al Pasubio;
negli
ultimi anni ha ripreso a nidificare anche nelle zone più impervie del
nostro
Parco.

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******
> ************
>
>
> AQUILA REALE - Aquila chrysaetos
>
> Classe: Uccelli
> Ordine: Accipitriformi
> Famiglia: Accipitridi
> Morfologia: grosso uccello rapace diurno presente sulle Alpi (peso
3,5/5 Kg,
> apertura alare 2/2,2 m). L'adulto presenta colorazione bruno-scura,
con piume
> dorate nella parte superiore del collo. I soggetti giovani, o
comunque
> sub-adulti, presentano ampie macchie chiare con barrature sotto le
ali e sotto la
> coda.
> Habitat: vive nell'ambiente di alta montagna (praterie d'alta
quota),
> popolato da camosci, caprioli, marmotte e lepri.
> Alimentazione: caccia attivamente medie e grosse prede (marmotte,
lepri ed in
> qualche caso piccoli di camoscio e capriolo). Sopporta anche lunghi
periodi
> di digiuno (stagione invernale):
> Abitudini: è stanziale e vive in coppie che nidificano su pareti
> inaccessibili. I piccoli (1 o 2) nascono dopo circa 45 giorni di
cova e vengono nutriti da
> entrambi i genitori; sono in grado di volare dopo 70/80 giorni.
> Localizzazione: prerogativa della specie è quella di sorvolare aree
molto
> vaste per procurarsi il cibo; nel Parco della Lessinia è usuale
vedere l'aquila
> reale volare nel cielo in quanto una coppia di questo stupendo
rapace si sposta
> abitualmente dal Monte Baldo alla Lessinia, al Carega e al Pasubio;
negli
> ultimi anni ha ripreso a nidificare anche nelle zone più impervie
del nostro
> Parco.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13399 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Salve Pomponia,

I thank you for your both your private and public replies.

With regard to the former, may I Pomponia offer my sincere apologies
to you?

At time of writing my public post to you (VIZ. 23.07.03) I had not
access to my Yahoo mail account which has been giving trouble all
week. On reviewing that mail today, I now find that you personally
did, indeed, have the courtesy and decency to inform me of your
acceptance as a CIVIS and the CENSORES decision RE GENS. on the same
day you received it. Such are the vagaries of Yahoo! Matters are
not helped by the fact that I only have occasional access to a PC
(not mine).

Anyway, I thank again not just as a PATERFAMILIAS but as one CIVIS
to another. I hope that I have caused no upset or hurt in my
misplaced comments. As I said previously, Pomponia, I genuinely bear
you no ill will and wish you every success as one of our newest
CIVES in NOVA ROMA. I am also sorry that your name was dragged into
the public domain in this way.


Of course, that in no way exonerates the CENSORES actions in this
matter, but, I appreciate that that is not your concern. I am sure
you know that I have publicly written to the CENSORES and replied to
our honoured CENSOR GERMANICVS RE this whole sorry affair. You may
also know that, in fairness, the CENSORES have taken prompt remedial
action and, as a result, I now consider my honour satisfied and
DIGNITAS restored.

You mention: is not HIBERNIA and its CIVES more important than one
tiny GENS? You also express the hope that I still care for
HIBERNIA. POMPONIA, I say this not in a sanctimonius, self-
righteous or condescending way but I care dearly and deeply for my
native land, more perhaps, than you or others may ever know. In all
humility, I ask who charges me to lead HIBERNIA or the CIVES of
HIBERNIA? I will certainly advocate HIBERNIA's case, defend with
pride her separate identity, push for her status as a PROVINCIA and,
of course, I will help other CIVES from HIBERNIA to the utmost of my
abilities in whatever way I can. Would I be PROPRAETOR of HIBERNIA,
if I could - Yes - but there are no quick fixes, I have yet to
embark on the CVRSVS HONORVM. That would need nomination,
canvassing, votes and, of course, election.

My GENS. is very important, and something I deliberated over for
some time. It was a thoughtful decision but on an historic figure
of the Late Republic, as I indicated tou in one of my private posts.
Pomponia, I have never been interested in personal Empire building
in gens. But my gens is important.

In any event, we can, if you wish, discuss anye matter further
privately.

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS

tvvs in sodilicio res pvblica romanae




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> ---
> Salve Marce;
> I have checked my email and notice that the very day I received
my
> citizenship, I also wrote to you privately reminding you that I
> applied to Gens Fabia Vera first and then you, but that your gens
was
> dissolved.
> If you check this list there is a large notice declaring which
gens
> are dissolved and why & you are among them. I checked this as well
as
> the Album Civium and the Provincia Britannia where you are listed
as
> Marcus Nemo Gracchus.
> I take no ill feeling from your post Marcus, I understand that
you
> feel your dignitas has been affected, but is not Hibernia and its
> cives more important than 1 tiny gens? Will you fail to lead
Hibernia
> because of this or is it a matter of starting a giant gens and
being
> the head of it?
> I wish you well Marcus & hope you still care for Hibernia,
> Vale Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Pomponia,
> >
> > I am, of course, delighted for you that your citizenship has
been
> > approved - congratulations!
> >
> > However, this turn of events is concerning to me both as a CIVIS
> and
> > PATERFAMILIAS.
> >
> > .
> >
> > Neither I'm afraid to say had you contacted me privately,
Pomponia,
> > to let me know of the CENSORES decision or yours to revert to
your
> > original application - an application you had told me privately
> that
> > you wished to supersede in favour of my sponsorship of you into
> gens
> > CALIDIA. In truth I am disappointed , if not a little wounded,
> > since that would, in my view, have been a simple courtesy. That
> > said, Pomponia, I enjoyed our discourses, I bear you no ill will
> > and, naturally, I wish you every success and happiness in your
new
> > gens.
> >
> > One small point and please do not think this a rebuke, I note
that
> > in a subsequent post to my colleague QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS you
> > talk of gens. CALIDIA as being "defunct" may I ask why you made
> this
> > assertion? It is certainly news to me as PATERFAMILIAS and
> > something at the very least I should have thought the CENSORES
> would
> > have contacted me about. Certainly, if one looks down the list
> > produced by MARCVS OCTAVIVS GERMANICVS you will find no mention
of
> > gens CALIDIA.
> >
> > I may not have been as active as I would have wished over the
last
> 6-
> > 7 months but that was due to my own personal circumstances -
> > publicly stated - and completely outside my control as Tibune
> > AVENTINA will attest. Before last December (remember I'm only a
> > CIVIS myself since last September) I was very active both in the
> > project to recruit new CIVES from north Africa and enhance our
> > Website for that as QVAESTOR SERAPIO and QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS
> > will attest. I was also proactive in the lengthy/ controversial
> > debate we had over gens reform as our venerable ex-Consul Sulla
> will
> > attest. Since my recent return, I have of own volition offered
my
> > gens to you when as a prospective CIVIS you were apparently in
need
> > of one - not only helping a fellow CIVIS but also attempting, as
> > PATERFAMILIAS, to increase gens CALIDIA. Finally, as you know,
> > Pomponia, I had willingly agreed to your suggestion that we
should
> > use gens CALIDIA as a DE FACTO focal point for prospective CIVES
> > from HIBERNIA and I had also written to the PROPRAETOR of
> BRITANNIA,
> > honoured SILANVS, making the case that HIBERNIA should form its
own
> > distinct PROVINCIA. I ask more to QVIRITES generally is this
> > inactivity? I ask not sarcastically but genuinely, what level of
> > activity must one fall below before a gens is considered
defunct,
> > who decides this, how is this communicated, what input does the
> > PATERFAMILIAS have in the decision and what are the rights of
> > appeal? Certainly, I have received nothing from the Magistrates
of
> > NOVA ROMA - ironic is it not at a time when we are supposedly
> trying
> > to encourage active gens and PATERFAMILIAS? I would
respectfully
> > suggest, that my treatment in this matter does not augur well
for
> > the initiative as a whole.
> >
> > Pomponia, please do not think this entire post is aimed at you,
I
> > assure it is not, as you see it is as much, if not more so aimed
at
> > my treatment by officials of NOVA ROMA. I remain happy to
> correspond
> > with you at any time on any matter, as long as I remain in NOVA
> > ROMA. But yes this matter, if not properly addressed and
redressed
> > to me, will have left me feeling disallusioned.
> >
> > BONA FORTVNA
> >
> >
> > VALE
> >
> >
> > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA
> >
> >
> > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> >
> > "VERITAS LVX MEA"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Salve Marce Calidi;
> > > the Censores, in my opinion, wisely reinstated my 1st
> > application
> > > to the active gens Fabia Vera. I believe this is better for
Nova
> > Roma
> > > as a whole, this is no diminution to your honor but a question
of
> > > practicality and wisdom. Though you are not my paterfamilias
we
> > can
> > > certainly work to create an active Hibernia.
> > > Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
> > > (unofficially Urania Calidia Antonina)
> > >
> > >
> > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> > > <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > > > MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORI MARCO OCTAVIO GERMANICO
S.P.D.
> > > >
> > > > Honoured Censor,
> > > >
> > > > Please forgive my public address to you. I do so in my
> capacity
> > as
> > > > PATERFAMILIAS of gens CALIDIA. I have e-mailed you at the
> > CENSORES
> > > > official e-mail address some time ago and you personally
more
> > > > recently but have yet to receive a reply.
> > > >
> > > > I understand that your post is both an onerous and extremely
> > busy
> > > > one -I certainly do not wish to add to your burden. I have
> > written
> > > > to you about the acceptance of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA as a
> > CIVIS
> > > > and my formal adoption of her into gens CALIDIA which I have
> > > > approved.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps, you would be good enough to contact me at
> > > > cybernaut911@y... regarding this matter.
> > > >
> > > > Thanking you in anticipation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > > > PATERFAMILIAS
> > > >
> > > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Africa Septentrionalis
> > > >
> > > > http://www.geocities/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> > > > <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The patresfamilias of the following gentes, each
containing
> > > > multiple
> > > > > citizens, did not reply to the gens registration request
of
> > May
> > > > and June.
> > > > >
> > > > > Citizens within these gentes may petition the Censores to
be
> > > > appointed
> > > > > the new paterfamilias (materfamilias). If more than one
> > person
> > > > from any
> > > > > gens in this list wishes to assume this position, the
> conflict
> > > will
> > > > > be resolved according to the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis
Gentium
> > > > > Novaromanarum Agendis.
> > > > >
> > > > > Acilia Postumus Acilius Fylko
> > > > > *Aelia Quintus Aelius Vartarius
> > > > > Aenea Apollonia Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
> > > > > Aetria Titus Aetrius Ferox
> > > > > Albia Gaius Albius Gadelicus
> > > > > Alexandria Tiberius Alexandrius Marius
> > > > > Amatia Marcus Amatius Lupus
> > > > > Anncina Secundia Ancinna Octavia
> > > > > Annia Lucius Anneus Laurentius
> > > > > *Antonia Marcus Antonius Caesar
> > > > > Arcadia Marcus Arcadius Pius
> > > > > Arria Quintus Arrius Flavius
> > > > > Artoria Aulus Artorius Arius
> > > > > Asinia Titus Asinius Pollio
> > > > > Atlantica Lucius Atlanticus Celtius
> > > > > Augusta Marcus Augustus Octavius
> > > > > Aurelia Publius Aurelius Varrius
> > > > > Australia Mamercus Australius Cicero
> > > > > Caecilia Caecilia Leporaria
> > > > > Caecilia Metella Lucius Caecilius Metellus Scaevola
> > > > > Canadia Falco Canadius Centuri
> > > > > Caprenia Gnaea Caprenia Gallia
> > > > > Caselia Tiberius Caselius Sidonius
> > > > > Castellana Lucullus Castellanus Interamnas
> > > > > Claudia Lucentia Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
> > > > > Columella Columella Octavia
> > > > > Coruncania Titus Coruncanius Rufus
> > > > > Corva Lucius Corvus Pallidus
> > > > > Curia Martinus Curius Cupidus
> > > > > Curtia Lisectus Curtius Barcus
> > > > > Didia Gemina Marcus Didius Geminus Falcus
> > > > > Domitia Tiberius Domitius Fortis
> > > > > Drusilla Gaius Drusillus Lepidus
> > > > > Duilia Marcus Duilius Fusconius
> > > > > Fabricia Iunia Fabricia Batavia
> > > > > Flacca Oppius Flaccus Severus
> > > > > Fulvia Marcus Fulvius Flaccus
> > > > > Germana Marcellus Germanus Ancinnius
> > > > > Gramatinica Toddius Gramatinicus Ahenbarbus
> Austinicus
> > > > > Hebraea Lupus Hebraeus Levius
> > > > > Helvetia Titius Helvetius Gallus
> > > > > Hibernia Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
> > > > > Hyeania Scipio Hyeanus Africanus
> > > > > Iana Andreus Ianus Vir
> > > > > Imperia Gaius Imperius
> > > > > Inventia Numerius Inventius Barbatus
> > > > > Irminia Marcus Irminius Longinus
> > > > > Italia Sextus Italius Lupus
> > > > > Iucundia Minervina Iucundia Flavia
> > > > > Jovia Diocletianus Jovius Herculeius
> > > > > Larcia Titus Larcius Mulinus
> > > > > Licinia Lucius Licinius Varro Murena
> > > > > Longina Marcus Longinus Savo
> > > > > Lucia Honoria Lucia
> > > > > *Luciana Marius Lucianus Silvanus
> > > > > Maira Maria Dia
> > > > > Marcella Flavius Marcellus Valerius
> > > > > Martia Scipio Martius Bellicus
> > > > > Mauricia Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > > > > Maxentia Gaius Maxentius Apollonarius Sorex
> > > > > Maxima Marcus Maximus Gaius
> > > > > Mercuria Julius Mercurius
> > > > > Natalina Gaia Natalina Casca
> > > > > Nautia Publius Nautius Russus
> > > > > Olivaria Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
> > > > > Olympia Paulus Olympius Gallus
> > > > > Optima Carius Optimus
> > > > > Ovidia Julia Ovidia Luna
> > > > > Papiria Marcus Papirus Justus
> > > > > Pasqualia Ioannus Pasqualius Delavarius
> > > > > Paulia Gaius Paulius Africanus
> > > > > Petra Josephus Petrus Amicus
> > > > > Petronia Attica Petronia Gallia
> > > > > *Planincola Laurentius Planincolus Davidius
> Germanicus
> > > > > Pompeia Gnaeus Pompieus Calamus Verpa
> > > > > Pontia Gaius Pontius Falco
> > > > > Porcia Marcus Porcius Cato
> > > > > *Portia Tiberius Portius Sarno
> > > > > Queria Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> > > > > Quinta Kaeso Quintus Bellicus
> > > > > Quintilia Titus Quintilius Germanicus
> > > > > Ritulia Prima Ritulia Nocta
> > > > > Romana Caius Romanus Primus
> > > > > Romula Servius Romulus Horatius
> > > > > Sempronia Tiberius Sempronius Licinius
> > > > > Sententiosa Iona Sententiosa Britaega
> > > > > Serena Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus
> > > > > Sertoria Quintus Sertorius
> > > > > Sestia Sextus Sestius Sedigitus
> > > > > Silvia Gaius Silvius Agricola
> > > > > Solaria Alexander Solaris Draconteus
> > > > > Suetonia Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
> > > > > Tacitia Tiberius Tacitus Rex
> > > > > Tarquinia Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
> > > > > Terentia Ferraria Manius Terentius Ferrarius Longinus
> > > > > Theodosia Antonius Theodosius Melinius
> > > > > Tituria Vincens Titurius Bellator
> > > > > Troica Sextus Troicus Ductor
> > > > > Vergilia Sextus Vergilius Maro
> > > > > Vibia Publius Vibius Sarmaticus
> > > > > Virginia Marcus Virginius Julianus
> > > > > Viridia Gallus Viridius Tanicus
> > > > > Vitellia Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> > > > > (103 gentes)
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that these gentes are *NOT* being disbanded, and
these
> > names
> > > > are
> > > > > not being made available for use by other citizens. These
> > gentes
> > > > are
> > > > > merely temporarily suspended so that they can reorganize
> > > > themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > > M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> > > > > Censor, Consular, Citizen.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13400 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

For those who are interested in more information about Roman abortion
and infanticide practices the following provide a good introduction:

J. Boswell, _The Kindness of Strangers: the Abandonment of Children in
Western Europe from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance_ (London, 1988).
S. Dickison, "Abortion in Antiquity," _Arethusa_ 6 (1973) 159-66.
D. Engels, "The Problem of Female Infanticide in the Greco-Roman
World," _Classical Philology_ 75 (1980) 112-20.
E. Eyben, "Family planning in Graeco-Roman antiquity," _Ancient
Society_ 11-12 (1980-81) 5-82.
W.V. Harris, "Child Exposure in the Roman Empire," _Journal of Roman
Studies_ 84 (1994) 1-22.
W.V. Harris, "The Theoretical Possibility of Extensive Infanticide in
he Greco-Roman World," _Classical Quarterly_ 32 (1982) 114-16.
K. Hopkins, "Contraception in the Roman Empire," _Comparative Studies
in Social History_ 8 (1965-66) 124-151.
B.M. Rawson, ed., _The Family in Ancient Rome: New Perspectives_
(London, 1986).
J.M. Riddle, _Contraception and Abortion from the Ancient World to the
Renaissance_ (Cambridge, Mass., 1992).

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13401 From: GirlinBriteSandals Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: (no subject)
Greetings,

I'm a Greek girl, from Delphi, living as concubine of Senator Troyanis who conquered Syria with Mark Antony.

I don't understand. A woman can't be Pater Familias or a citizen, except in Aristophanes haha. Are you playing Aristophanes or Amazons? These are two of my favorite stories to act out, at home, of course because girls don't act in the Sacred Theater of Dyonisus.

Please tell me how to play Nova roma because, when the Senator is at the Senate, I'm bored.

May Artemis Bless You,
GirlinBriteSandals


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13402 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Salvete,

I've written a friendly note to "GirlinBriteSandals" off list,
letting her know that Nova Roma is a serious historical organization
rather than a fantasy roleplaying group. Hopefully she will do more
reading from our website (www.novaroma.org) and will get a better
idea about Nova Roma and its goals.

Perhaps she has other, more serious Roman interests and would like to
stay. Perhaps not. Just thought I'd let everyone know that info has
gone to her already - to save many other people having to post better
information to her. :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GirlinBriteSandals
<girlinbritesandals@y...> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I'm a Greek girl, from Delphi, living as concubine of Senator
Troyanis who conquered Syria with Mark Antony.
>
> I don't understand. A woman can't be Pater Familias or a citizen,
except in Aristophanes haha. Are you playing Aristophanes or
Amazons? These are two of my favorite stories to act out, at home,
of course because girls don't act in the Sacred Theater of Dyonisus.
>
> Please tell me how to play Nova roma because, when the Senator is
at the Senate, I'm bored.
>
> May Artemis Bless You,
> GirlinBriteSandals
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13403 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Salve Marce Calidi;
I accept your apology but in the future suggest you concern
yourself less with the idea of your Dignitas and strive to cultivate
the Roman virtues of Prudentia et Severitas - personal discretion and
self-control.
Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
<cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> Salve Pomponia,
>
> I thank you for your both your private and public replies.
>
> With regard to the former, may I Pomponia offer my sincere
apologies
> to you?
>
> At time of writing my public post to you (VIZ. 23.07.03) I had not
> access to my Yahoo mail account which has been giving trouble all
> week. On reviewing that mail today, I now find that you personally
> did, indeed, have the courtesy and decency to inform me of your
> acceptance as a CIVIS and the CENSORES decision RE GENS. on the
same
> day you received it. Such are the vagaries of Yahoo! Matters are
> not helped by the fact that I only have occasional access to a PC
> (not mine).
>
> Anyway, I thank again not just as a PATERFAMILIAS but as one CIVIS
> to another. I hope that I have caused no upset or hurt in my
> misplaced comments. As I said previously, Pomponia, I genuinely
bear
> you no ill will and wish you every success as one of our newest
> CIVES in NOVA ROMA. I am also sorry that your name was dragged
into
> the public domain in this way.
>
>
> Of course, that in no way exonerates the CENSORES actions in this
> matter, but, I appreciate that that is not your concern. I am sure
> you know that I have publicly written to the CENSORES and replied
to
> our honoured CENSOR GERMANICVS RE this whole sorry affair. You may
> also know that, in fairness, the CENSORES have taken prompt
remedial
> action and, as a result, I now consider my honour satisfied and
> DIGNITAS restored.
>
> You mention: is not HIBERNIA and its CIVES more important than one
> tiny GENS? You also express the hope that I still care for
> HIBERNIA. POMPONIA, I say this not in a sanctimonius, self-
> righteous or condescending way but I care dearly and deeply for my
> native land, more perhaps, than you or others may ever know. In all
> humility, I ask who charges me to lead HIBERNIA or the CIVES of
> HIBERNIA? I will certainly advocate HIBERNIA's case, defend with
> pride her separate identity, push for her status as a PROVINCIA
and,
> of course, I will help other CIVES from HIBERNIA to the utmost of
my
> abilities in whatever way I can. Would I be PROPRAETOR of
HIBERNIA,
> if I could - Yes - but there are no quick fixes, I have yet to
> embark on the CVRSVS HONORVM. That would need nomination,
> canvassing, votes and, of course, election.
>
> My GENS. is very important, and something I deliberated over for
> some time. It was a thoughtful decision but on an historic figure
> of the Late Republic, as I indicated tou in one of my private
posts.
> Pomponia, I have never been interested in personal Empire building
> in gens. But my gens is important.
>
> In any event, we can, if you wish, discuss anye matter further
> privately.
>
> M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
>
> tvvs in sodilicio res pvblica romanae
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > ---
> >
> > > PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA
> > >
> > >
> > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > >
> > > "VERITAS LVX MEA"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > Salve Marce Calidi;
> > > > the Censores, in my opinion, wisely reinstated my 1st
> > > application
> > > > to the active gens Fabia Vera. I believe this is better for
> Nova
> > > Roma
> > > > as a whole, this is no diminution to your honor but a
question
> of
> > > > practicality and wisdom. Though you are not my paterfamilias
> we
> > > can
> > > > certainly work to create an active Hibernia.
> > > > Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
> > > > (unofficially Urania Calidia Antonina)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> > > > <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > > > > MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORI MARCO OCTAVIO GERMANICO
> S.P.D.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honoured Censor,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please forgive my public address to you. I do so in my
> > capacity
> > > as
> > > > > PATERFAMILIAS of gens CALIDIA. I have e-mailed you at the
> > > CENSORES
> > > > > official e-mail address some time ago and you personally
> more
> > > > > recently but have yet to receive a reply.
> > > > >
> > > > > I understand that your post is both an onerous and
extremely
> > > busy
> > > > > one -I certainly do not wish to add to your burden. I have
> > > written
> > > > > to you about the acceptance of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA as a
> > > CIVIS
> > > > > and my formal adoption of her into gens CALIDIA which I
have
> > > > > approved.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps, you would be good enough to contact me at
> > > > > cybernaut911@y... regarding this matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanking you in anticipation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > > > > PATERFAMILIAS
> > > > >
> > > > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Africa Septentrionalis
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.geocities/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> > > > > <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The patresfamilias of the following gentes, each
> containing
> > > > > multiple
> > > > > > citizens, did not reply to the gens registration request
> of
> > > May
> > > > > and June.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Citizens within these gentes may petition the Censores to
> be
> > > > > appointed
> > > > > > the new paterfamilias (materfamilias). If more than one
> > > person
> > > > > from any
> > > > > > gens in this list wishes to assume this position, the
> > conflict
> > > > will
> > > > > > be resolved according to the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis
> Gentium
> > > > > > Novaromanarum Agendis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Acilia Postumus Acilius Fylko
> > > > > > *Aelia Quintus Aelius Vartarius
> > > > > > Aenea Apollonia Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
> > > > > > Aetria Titus Aetrius Ferox
> > > > > > Albia Gaius Albius Gadelicus
> > > > > > Alexandria Tiberius Alexandrius Marius
> > > > > > Amatia Marcus Amatius Lupus
> > > > > > Anncina Secundia Ancinna Octavia
> > > > > > Annia Lucius Anneus Laurentius
> > > > > > *Antonia Marcus Antonius Caesar
> > > > > > Arcadia Marcus Arcadius Pius
> > > > > > Arria Quintus Arrius Flavius
> > > > > > Artoria Aulus Artorius Arius
> > > > > > Asinia Titus Asinius Pollio
> > > > > > Atlantica Lucius Atlanticus Celtius
> > > > > > Augusta Marcus Augustus Octavius
> > > > > > Aurelia Publius Aurelius Varrius
> > > > > > Australia Mamercus Australius Cicero
> > > > > > Caecilia Caecilia Leporaria
> > > > > > Caecilia Metella Lucius Caecilius Metellus Scaevola
> > > > > > Canadia Falco Canadius Centuri
> > > > > > Caprenia Gnaea Caprenia Gallia
> > > > > > Caselia Tiberius Caselius Sidonius
> > > > > > Castellana Lucullus Castellanus Interamnas
> > > > > > Claudia Lucentia Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
> > > > > > Columella Columella Octavia
> > > > > > Coruncania Titus Coruncanius Rufus
> > > > > > Corva Lucius Corvus Pallidus
> > > > > > Curia Martinus Curius Cupidus
> > > > > > Curtia Lisectus Curtius Barcus
> > > > > > Didia Gemina Marcus Didius Geminus Falcus
> > > > > > Domitia Tiberius Domitius Fortis
> > > > > > Drusilla Gaius Drusillus Lepidus
> > > > > > Duilia Marcus Duilius Fusconius
> > > > > > Fabricia Iunia Fabricia Batavia
> > > > > > Flacca Oppius Flaccus Severus
> > > > > > Fulvia Marcus Fulvius Flaccus
> > > > > > Germana Marcellus Germanus Ancinnius
> > > > > > Gramatinica Toddius Gramatinicus Ahenbarbus
> > Austinicus
> > > > > > Hebraea Lupus Hebraeus Levius
> > > > > > Helvetia Titius Helvetius Gallus
> > > > > > Hibernia Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
> > > > > > Hyeania Scipio Hyeanus Africanus
> > > > > > Iana Andreus Ianus Vir
> > > > > > Imperia Gaius Imperius
> > > > > > Inventia Numerius Inventius Barbatus
> > > > > > Irminia Marcus Irminius Longinus
> > > > > > Italia Sextus Italius Lupus
> > > > > > Iucundia Minervina Iucundia Flavia
> > > > > > Jovia Diocletianus Jovius Herculeius
> > > > > > Larcia Titus Larcius Mulinus
> > > > > > Licinia Lucius Licinius Varro Murena
> > > > > > Longina Marcus Longinus Savo
> > > > > > Lucia Honoria Lucia
> > > > > > *Luciana Marius Lucianus Silvanus
> > > > > > Maira Maria Dia
> > > > > > Marcella Flavius Marcellus Valerius
> > > > > > Martia Scipio Martius Bellicus
> > > > > > Mauricia Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > > > > > Maxentia Gaius Maxentius Apollonarius Sorex
> > > > > > Maxima Marcus Maximus Gaius
> > > > > > Mercuria Julius Mercurius
> > > > > > Natalina Gaia Natalina Casca
> > > > > > Nautia Publius Nautius Russus
> > > > > > Olivaria Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
> > > > > > Olympia Paulus Olympius Gallus
> > > > > > Optima Carius Optimus
> > > > > > Ovidia Julia Ovidia Luna
> > > > > > Papiria Marcus Papirus Justus
> > > > > > Pasqualia Ioannus Pasqualius Delavarius
> > > > > > Paulia Gaius Paulius Africanus
> > > > > > Petra Josephus Petrus Amicus
> > > > > > Petronia Attica Petronia Gallia
> > > > > > *Planincola Laurentius Planincolus Davidius
> > Germanicus
> > > > > > Pompeia Gnaeus Pompieus Calamus Verpa
> > > > > > Pontia Gaius Pontius Falco
> > > > > > Porcia Marcus Porcius Cato
> > > > > > *Portia Tiberius Portius Sarno
> > > > > > Queria Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> > > > > > Quinta Kaeso Quintus Bellicus
> > > > > > Quintilia Titus Quintilius Germanicus
> > > > > > Ritulia Prima Ritulia Nocta
> > > > > > Romana Caius Romanus Primus
> > > > > > Romula Servius Romulus Horatius
> > > > > > Sempronia Tiberius Sempronius Licinius
> > > > > > Sententiosa Iona Sententiosa Britaega
> > > > > > Serena Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus
> > > > > > Sertoria Quintus Sertorius
> > > > > > Sestia Sextus Sestius Sedigitus
> > > > > > Silvia Gaius Silvius Agricola
> > > > > > Solaria Alexander Solaris Draconteus
> > > > > > Suetonia Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
> > > > > > Tacitia Tiberius Tacitus Rex
> > > > > > Tarquinia Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
> > > > > > Terentia Ferraria Manius Terentius Ferrarius Longinus
> > > > > > Theodosia Antonius Theodosius Melinius
> > > > > > Tituria Vincens Titurius Bellator
> > > > > > Troica Sextus Troicus Ductor
> > > > > > Vergilia Sextus Vergilius Maro
> > > > > > Vibia Publius Vibius Sarmaticus
> > > > > > Virginia Marcus Virginius Julianus
> > > > > > Viridia Gallus Viridius Tanicus
> > > > > > Vitellia Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> > > > > > (103 gentes)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that these gentes are *NOT* being disbanded, and
> these
> > > names
> > > > > are
> > > > > > not being made available for use by other citizens.
These
> > > gentes
> > > > > are
> > > > > > merely temporarily suspended so that they can reorganize
> > > > > themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> > > > > > Censor, Consular, Citizen.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13404 From: Patricia Cassia Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Roman Market Day in Hollis, Sept. 13 and 14
Here's the press release I sent out for Roman Market Days! Please feel
free to forward this to other lists, friends, etc.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Photos available on request
Media contact: Pat Washburn, 207-251-2143 or pcassia@...


ANCIENT ROME COMES TO MAINE

Roman Market Days, historical re-enactment with gladiators, soldiers,
shopping and entertainment
10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Saturday and Sunday, Sept. 13 and 14, 2003
Hollis Equestrian Center, Hollis, Maine (directions below)

If all you know of ancient Rome is what you’ve seen on the screen, come
find out the real story! For the Romans, daily life included lively
entertainment, practical military strategy, healthy, delicious meals,
comfortable, simple clothing and a society that emphasized art, virtue
and service.

Nova Roma, an international cultural organization based in Maine, is
proud to sponsor Roman Market Days, a weekend of living history with
costumed re-enactors, workshops, activities, food and more.

Come visit us at the Hollis Equestrian Center, Hollis, Maine, from 10
a.m. to 4 p.m. Sept. 13 and 14, 2003! The cost is $5 for adults, $3 for
students and seniors, age 5 and under free.

GAMES AND SPECTACLES: Nova Roma is proud to welcome Legio XXIV, a Roman
re-enactor unit with accurate historical displays of combat armor,
weapons and clothing. Ask the Praefectus about the Roman soldier's
life, work and skills, or find out how you can get involved in Roman
re-enacting.

We also welcome the Ludus Magnus gladiatorial troupe, which offers a
lively and informative display of the show combats that the Romans so
enjoyed. The Shire of Mountain Freehold from Vermont will demonstrate
the use of cavalry in Roman times, with historically accurate horse
equipment.

Other activities include a talk on Roman fashion and a Children's Table
with parent-directed crafts on Roman themes, with coloring pages and a
make-your-own mosaic activity.

ROMAN SHOPPING: Commerce made the Roman world go 'round, and it's no
different today. Our vendors include:

-- La Wren's Nest: The East Coast's premier source of historically
accurate Roman items, including armor, weapons, tunics, togas, women's
costumes, jewelry and accessories.

-- Imperium Ancient Arts: Affordable, genuine ancient artifacts from
the Roman world and beyond. Special selection of low-cost items appeals
to the beginning collector and student.

-- The Tinker’s Backpack: Jewelry, leather goods and other accessories.

-- Thornefolk Solutions: Handcrafted bath items.

-- Biblioteca Pompeii: New and used books related to ancient Rome.

-- Ancient Fire: Human body art (mehndi) -- S and M Unlimited: Your
photo in Roman costume!

-- And more to be named later.

FOOD FOR BODY AND MIND: Vendors will offer a selection of food and
drink both ancient and modern. Educational displays will include
information on Roman weddings, religion, cuisine, maps and more.
Sanitary facilities (including those accessible to people with
disabilities) will be available on site.

ABOUT NOVA ROMA: Nova Roma is an international organization dedicated to
reviving and studying the ancient history, culture and religion of
ancient Rome. Members serve in re-enactor groups, review historical
texts, raise money for Roman-oriented charities, study Latin, cook
ancient foods, write poetry on Roman themes and play Roman games . We
also share the results of our researches with each other and with the
world through our Web site, http://www.novaroma.org

Joining Nova Roma is free, though Citizens who wish to vote in the
group's elections are asked to pay a small fee. To find out more, visit
our Web site.

DIRECTIONS: All roads may lead to Rome, but to get to Roman Market Day,
you need to find Hollis, Maine.

From Portsmouth, Boston and points south: Get on Interstate 95, which
becomes the Maine Turnpike, and take Exit 3 (Kennebunk). From the exit,
head north on Route 35 through Dayton. After you cross into Hollis,
Route 35 takes a sharp curve to the right. Turn left at this curve onto
Clarks Mills Road. The Hollis Equestrian Park is at the other end of
the road, about 2 miles.

From points north: Get on Route 95 (Maine Turnpike) heading south. Get
off at Exit 5 (Saco). Take your first exit after the tollbooth, then
turn left at the end of the ramp. When the road ends, turn right. You
are now on Route 112. After a couple of miles you'll see a horse farm
on your left. Tkae this left onto Louden Road, then turn right when it
ends. You are now on Route 5. The Hollis Equestrian Park will
be on your left about 2.5 miles north of the Route 35 intersection.

From other locations: See http://www.mainehorse.com/hep/directions.html

FOR MORE INFORMATION: Media/school contact: Pat Washburn, 207-251-2143
or pcassia@...; vendor coordinator Julie Brooks, 860-928-6908
or lawrensnest@....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13405 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Quintus said in part "Again, the fetus is not human and has no rights, ....."

Yea biologically it's a toaster


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13406 From: Caivs Ivlivs Barcinvs Ciconivs Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Furrinalia
Salvete

Mañana día 25 de julio se celebra "Las Furrinalias". Al ser el Flamen
Furinalis es mi deber avisaros para que celebremos debidamente el
culto a la diosa Furrina, aquí os pongo la oración y como deberéis
celebrar el día.

El 25 se deberá salir al campo, al menos un día y celebrar un comida
campestre, que consistirá en verduras frescas, fruta y pan, se beberá
vino mezclado con agua de manantial a partes iguales y se celebraran
juegos lúdicos en familia. Se prohíben las apuestas de todo tipo en
esos juegos, para no crear disputas y que la diosa sea aplacada. Tras
la comida, habiéndose reservado una porción para ella en un lugar de
la mesa. Volveremos a casa y en ella continuaremos con los juegos
familiares, en caso de que hallan niños impúberes estarán exentos de
beber vino. Su bebida será agua de manantial durante las furrinalias
y su alimentación será la adecuada a su edad.
La música es una parte esencial de las furrinalias por ello, la
música que se escuche ha de ser adecuada a la celebración, esta ha de
ser amena y exenta de violencia, con letras que inciten a ella o la
animen.
Sacrificios y honras a Furrina:

Se ha de apelar a Furrina para que sea favorable al pueblo de Roma.

Oración:



"Furrina, con el propósito de que el bien supremo, la felicidad, la
buena suerte sean con el pueblo y los ciudadanos romanos, porque es
apropiado ofrecerte sacrificio hoy (25 de Julio), por estas razones
serás honrada con el incienso y el vino. Te suplico y te pido que de
esta forma favorezcas al pueblo y a los ciudadanos romanos.
[ofrecer el incienso diciendo:] Furrina, por estos motivos seas
honrada con esta ofrenda de incienso. Sé de buena gana propicia al
pueblo y a los ciudadanos romanos.
[ofrecer el vino diciendo:] Furrina, por estos mismos motivos seas
honrada con este vino que libamos en tu honor. Sé de buena gana
propicia al pueblo y a los ciudadanos romanos".

Caius Iulius Barcinus Ciconius
Flamen Furrinalis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13407 From: Sp. Postumius Tubertus Date: 2003-07-24
Subject: Re: ALBVM GENTIVM : GENS. CALIDIA
Sp. Postumius M. Calidio Graccho S.P.D.

Salve Marce Calidi,

Though your reply was directed at Censor Germanicus, let me reply to you
with what information I may.

You first ask how you were expected to know that you were to register your
gens. The Album Gentium shows you to have become a citizen on the 25th of
September, MMDCCLV (2002 CE/AD). Though I can understand a delayed absence,
the legislation in question, which I will mention to answer your next
question, was in effect at that time. Therefore, it would still be required
of you to be subject to such legislation as is current within Nova Roma,
even if you are unaware of the existence thereof, fortunately yet
unfortunately.

Next, you ask what provision is there for your position. Well, let me first
refer you to the relevant legislation: the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium
Novaromanarum Agendis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html). I would like
to point out a few specific provisions from this lex which I think you may
find to explain things:

"I. Each Gens shall be registered with the office of the Censors every year.

II. Registration of Gentes must be completed by the last day of June.

III. The censors must announce the opening of the registration period at
least 8 weeks before the deadline on the official Nova Roma email list."

Censor Germanicus announced the start of the gens registration of the 4th of
May, MMDCCLVI (2003 CE/AD), in Message 10130 on the Nova Roma mailing list.

"VII. A Gens that has failed to register with the office of Censors is
considered to have NO Paterfamilias. If there are other members of that gens
the Censors must work with the Gens to select a new Paterfamilias.

VIII. A Gens that has failed to register with the office of the Censors, and
which has no member other than its paterfamilias, shall be removed from the
Album Gentium. Its former members shall be considered to belong to no Gens,
and shall be given the nomen "Nemo". The nomen formerly used by that Gens
will be considered unused and available for future applicants."

This explains why your gens was removed, and why you subsequently became M.
Nemo Gracchus. However, your gens heving been removed from the Album
Gentium, and the gens Calidia having been made open for use by incoming
citizens, and you, as a member then of gens Nemo, were allowed to either
create a new gens or join an existing one, you were easily reinstated as the
paterfamilias of gens Calidia, with the same name as you had before.
However, should a new citizen taken the name "M. Calidius Gracchus," I think
you would be at a loss for options.

To respond to your last paragraph, I am not privy to the mailing which you
speak of, nor do I ask to be, but, insofar as the law is concerned, assuming
it was followed and handled as it dictates, as I am sure it was, your gens
was listed as defunct because you had not replied to the gens registration.
If you had responded to the gens registration, to which fact I am also not
privy, then I think there may have been a minor trip in the system
somewhere. But I could in no way truly speak on the matter.

Such is all I know to offer you.

Optime Vale in Pace,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13408 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Salve Tiberi,

Please read again! Quintus doesn't say it; he said the " courts "
said and determined this.

Regards,

Quintus






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Quintus said in part "Again, the fetus is not human and has no
rights, ....."
>
> Yea biologically it's a toaster
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13409 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Salve again Tiberi,

In case I was not clear enough, the drift of my posting is that
courts determined the fetus is not viable. If that is the case, they
cannot turn around and prosecute someone who caused the death of a
fetus or womens' rights activists who are upset about fetuses being
aborted just because they are female. If the courts charge a person
for the death of a fetus they are contradicting themselves. If
certain groups who pushed for a woman's right cry and want the
ultrasounds and abortions stopped just because the fetus is female
then they are being rediculously hypicritical as well.

As Charles Dickens once said " the law is an ass " and I begin to see
his point. I'm not debating this issue; I'm merely pointing out a few
follies.

Regards,

Quintus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Tiberi,
>
> Please read again! Quintus doesn't say it; he said the " courts "
> said and determined this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Quintus said in part "Again, the fetus is not human and has
no
> rights, ....."
> >
> > Yea biologically it's a toaster
> >
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13410 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Salve G. Iulius Scaurus,

Thank you for providing references to us all and thank you
especially for addressing us and providing a signature. :)

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> For those who are interested in more information about Roman
abortion
> and infanticide practices the following provide a good introduction:
>
> J. Boswell, _The Kindness of Strangers: the Abandonment of Children
in
> Western Europe from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance_ (London,
1988).
> S. Dickison, "Abortion in Antiquity," _Arethusa_ 6 (1973) 159-66.
> D. Engels, "The Problem of Female Infanticide in the Greco-Roman
> World," _Classical Philology_ 75 (1980) 112-20.
> E. Eyben, "Family planning in Graeco-Roman antiquity," _Ancient
> Society_ 11-12 (1980-81) 5-82.
> W.V. Harris, "Child Exposure in the Roman Empire," _Journal of
Roman
> Studies_ 84 (1994) 1-22.
> W.V. Harris, "The Theoretical Possibility of Extensive Infanticide
in
> he Greco-Roman World," _Classical Quarterly_ 32 (1982) 114-16.
> K. Hopkins, "Contraception in the Roman Empire," _Comparative
Studies
> in Social History_ 8 (1965-66) 124-151.
> B.M. Rawson, ed., _The Family in Ancient Rome: New Perspectives_
> (London, 1986).
> J.M. Riddle, _Contraception and Abortion from the Ancient World to
the
> Renaissance_ (Cambridge, Mass., 1992).
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13411 From: rexmarciusnr Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Results from the latest Senate session
Tribunus Plebis Marcus Marcius Rex Quiritibus SPD

Senate Voting Results published on July 25th 2756.

The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been
tallied as follows.

Formal debate began at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time, Tuesday 15
July. Voting began at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time Friday 18 July
and ended at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time Sunday 20 July in
accordance with the Senatus Consultum de ratione Senatus. A 48 hour
voting time extension for the convenience of Senators was originally
granted by the presiding magistrate Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.
The results published by the presiding magistrate at 0:05 Roman Time,
Wednesday 23 July (18:05 EST, Tuesday 22 July) on the Senate list
included all votes within the extended 96 hour time limit. It was
later pointed out that the SC de ratione Senatus does not allow for
such voting time extensions, which made all votes cast after the 48 -
hour period technically illegal and therefore void. As enough votes
were already cast within the legal 48-hour time frame all Senatus
Consulta are nonetheless valid. The Tribunes, who failed to point out
the illegality of the voting time extension at the time it was made,
therefore suggest to the Censors to regard the late votes as excused
in the light of the Lex Octavia Senatoria requiring minimum activity
from Senators.

The following 13 Senators cast votes in time. They are referred to
below by their initials, and are listed in alphabetical order by
nomen:

Marcus Arminius Maior (MAM)
Marcus Cassius Julianus (MCJ)
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (CFQ)
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (DIPI)
Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonicus (AICPM)
Titus Labienus Fortunatus (TLF)
Marcus Minucius Audens (MMA) proxy vote
Marcus Octavius Germanicus (MOG)
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (LPO)
Gnaeus Salix Astur (GSA) proxy vote
Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus (LSAO)
Lucius Sicinius Drusus (LSD)
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato (ATMC)

The following Senators cast a vote, but their vote was received after
voting
had ended in accordance with the Senatus Consultum de ratione Senatus
and therefore are not included in these results:

Patricia Cassia (PC)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla (LCS)
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus (LEC)
Quintus Fabius Maximus (QFM)
Caius Flavius Diocletianus (CFD)
Antonius Gryllus Graecus (AGG)


The following Senator did not cast a vote [and his absence was not
announced
or justified in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum and
the
LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS]:

Gaius Marius Merullus (CMM)

The necessary majority for a Senatus consultum was therefore 11 votes
in
favor. "UTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item, "ANTIQUO" or
"NEGAT" is a vote against, and "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.

The Agenda items for consideration were as follows:

Item I (passed 13 in favor - 0 opposed)

Aedilian Fund

I have been asked by the two Curule Aediles to propose the following
Senatus Consultum. The Curile Aediles of last year already founded a
Temple fund. according to their tasks in the Constitution. This years
Curule Aediles are convinced that they would like to formalize a new
routine according to the proposal for a Senatus Consultum below.

This is a different text than the text that I have presented on the
behalf of the Curule Aediles before and I have been told that this
proposal is better "anchored" than the one before. I hereby ask the
Senators to approve the following Senatus Consultum:

************
Senatus Consultum on an Aedilician Fund

I. An Aedilician Fund for donations in favour of the projects handled
by the Aediles Curules is hereby established. This fund will be
maintained as part of the Nova Roma bank account, rather than in a
separate account, because of the following advantages:

a.The donors can be sure that their money is kept in a safe place and
that it will not be kept by the magistrate.
b.People can use money orders and the Nova Roma PayPal account to
make donations in the same way as they pay taxes or make any other
donation to Nova Roma.
c.It will not be necessary to transfer funds to the country in which
the current Aediles Curules live.
d. U.S. residents will have the opportunity to deduct donations on
their taxes. This wouldn't be possible if the bank account was
outside USA.

II. The Aedilician Fund may be used only for those projects which
have been previously approved by the Senate. As a consequence, it is
responsibility of the Aediles Curules to submit to the Senate
detailed proposals for approvation. A proposal shall include as a
minimum:

a. detailed description of the project

b. amount of money needed

c. information on those people, authorities, institutions which will
get the money.

No citizen can deposit funds directly into the Aedilician Fund
without the Senate approving a project for which money can be donated.

III. Money contained in the Aedilician Fund can be used only for the
purpose to which they have been expressely donated. As a consequence,
there is no need for the Senate to vote their allocation, as it is
the will of the donors that those funds be spent for specific
projects as defined by the Aediles Curules and previously approved by
the Senate itself.

IV. The Aedilician Fund is under the Aediles Curules' responsibility.
A detailed record of all donations and their destinations will be
kept by the Quaestores assigned to the Aediles Curules. The Curule
Aedilician Quaestores will also provide the Consules with quarterly
reports on the Aedilician Fund to be attached to the national budget
of Nova Roma.

V. Donors who want to make a donation to the Aedilian Fund must:
a. indicate that the donation is in favour of the Aedilian Fund
b. specify the project those money are donated for.

Should the donor fail to meet these conditions the donation will be
considered as in favour of the Nova Roma central Treasury.

****************

I propose that the Senatus approve the proposed Senatus Consultum
above as it is.

CFQ: UTI ROGAS
GSA: UTI ROGAS
MMA: UTI ROGAS
LSA: UTI ROGAS
MAM: Uti Rogas
ATMC: UTI ROGAS
LPO: Uti Rogas
DIPI: Uti rogas
AICPM: UTI ROGAS
MOG: UTI ROGAS
LSD: Uti Rogas
MCJ: UTI ROGAS. This proposal was well thought out. It is in keeping
with both Nova Roma's intended 'outside project' goals, and sound
financial organization.
TLF: UTI ROGAS

Item II (passed 13 in favor – 0 opposed)

The Governor of Provincia Hispania

**********
Gnaeus Salix Galaicus has been proposed as Propraetor of Hispania
since the previous Propraetor has left the province and moved to
Mexico. Gnaeus Salix Galaicus has accepted the nomination of the
Provincia.

***************

I propose that the Senatus appoint Gnaeus Salix Galaicus as
Propraetor of Provincia Hispania

CFQ: UTI ROGAS
GSA: UTI ROGAS
MMA: UTI ROGAS
LSA: UTI ROGAS
MAM: Uti Rogas
ATMC: UTI ROGAS
LPO: Uti Rogas
DIPI: Uti rogas
AICPM: UTI ROGAS
MOG: UTI ROGAS
LSD: Uti Rogas
MCJ: UTI ROGAS. I believe Gnaeus Salix Galacius will do a fine job as
provincial governor.
TLF: UTI ROGAS

Item III (passed 13 in favor -0 opposed)

There is no reason for new citizens to pay the "Late tax payment fee"
as they as new citizens never can be late during their first year as
citizens. Because of this and a few citizens asking for exception
from the "Late tax payment fee" I have decided to propose the
following:

*************

Senatus Consultum about "Late tax payment fee" for new citizens

New cives, shall not have to pay the "Late tax payment fee" in the
calender year in which they join. This Senatus Consultum will become
effective immediately.

**************

I propose that the Senatus approve the above Senatus Consultum about
"Late tax payment fee" for new citizens

CFQ: UTI ROGAS
GSA: UTI ROGAS
MMA: UTI ROGAS
LSA: UTI ROGAS
MAM: Uti Rogas
ATMC: UTI ROGAS
LPO: Uti Rogas
DIPI: Uti rogas
AICPM: UTI ROGAS
MOG: UTI ROGAS
LSD: Uti Rogas
MCJ: This proposal should help encourage new Citizens to gain full
rights by holding Assidui status.
TLF: UTI ROGAS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13412 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: P. Terentius Varro Atacinus
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Varrone Atacino dal Baehrens al Duemila Rassegna
critico-bibliografica [Varrone Atacino from Baehrens to 2000: A
Critical-Bibliographical Review]"

http://lettere2.unive.it/bs/varrone/

This site, created by Tiziana Brolli (Biblioteca Scientifica, Facoltà
di Lettere e Filosofia, Università ca' Foscari di Venezia), is a
bibliographical review of historical and literary critical works on P.
Terentius Varro Atacinus from the edition of Emil Baehrens (1886) to
the present. P. Terentius Varro Atacinus (82–57 BCE) is the first
transalpine Latin poet whose works are extant. The site is in Italian,
but can also be viewed via Altavista's Babelfish machine translation
facility (with the usual caveats about machine translation) at http://
babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13413 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Ave,
The importance of the family in Roman society made it more likely that
a Female infant would be exposed than a male.

Maintaining or advancing your families place in society was very
important. Having too many children diluted the patrimony leaving the
family poorer. A Pater who did this was failing his duty to his
family, to both his ancestors who would see thier name deminished and
to his decendants who would robbed of thier rightful place in society.

Sons increased the wealth of the family after the investment in thier
carrers started paying off. Daughters cost money in the form of a
dowery, and allthough a marriage alliance through a daughter could
help advance the family, a son could do more.

Males carried on the family name and the family rites. Females left
the family and joined thier husbands family passing on his family name
and joining in his family rites. A Son would tend the graves of your
ancestors, and your grave after you died. A Daughter would be with her
husband tending the graves of his ancestors rather than those of your
family.

If you could only afford one child, you exposed a Female infant if it
came first and tried for a son.

If you could afford 2 Children, 2 sons were prefered in case one died
but a son and a daughter were acceptable.

Three children ment you could afford a daughter, but attempting to
finance the carrers of three sons was impossible for most so a third
son was more likely to be exposed than a daughter.

In Roma the important thing was if the sex of the infant meet the
needs of the family. If it didn't the child would be exposed, and
female infants were less likely to meet the needs of the family than
male infants.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Agreed.
> Yes, the proper reason I menat was if the pregnancy would harm the
> mother or if there would be damage to the baby. There are tests
> today that can show if the baby would be born with a disease or
> unhealthy syndrome.
> In that case I could see it happen but know this, in someones eyes, I
> will surely appear barbaric and they may be right. That is an
> acceptable case for me, as the sex determination is For the ancient
> Romans (if practiced) in my oppinion.
>
> We have gotten off the main topic because of the usage by me of
> Barbaric but it was taken out of context as an insult to people of
> today. I hope you see it wasn't meant that way but an observation in
> (of course) my oppinion. My heavans! LOL, I hope that has finally
> become clear as this topic is finally moving in the right direction,
> lol.
> Thank you.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > Earlier you said "I believe in abortion for the proper reasons"
> >
> > Now you say "the fact that the taking of an innocent life for
> whatever
> > the reason is wrong"
> >
> > Abortion is as much "taking of an innocent life" as Roman infancide
> > was. Most modern Abortions happen in the first trimester. The Romans
> > did it at the start of the "fourth trimester". That is the primary
> > difference.
> >
> > BTW exposure wasn't as sure a death as abortion. People did take in
> > exposed healthy infants to raise as thier own if it met the needs of
> > thier family or to sell them as slaves.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > So be it.
> > > I don't mind being considered barbaric by not participating in
> any
> > > tradition that takes the life of an innocent. I'd rather be
> barbaric
> > > in this case than the civilised killer.
> > > No matter how you try to phrase it, I will accept being called
> > > uncivilized or barbarian - those names can not hurt me, you can't
> > > change the fact that the taking of an innocent life for whatever
> the
> > > reason is wrong, lol, it just is.
> > > Ethically? Morally? or because society says it it? You can not
> > > change the nature of truth. Yes, it will be compared to the
> times
> > > and the needs and may be considered acceptable behavior for the
> > > situation but it will still be wrong.
> > > Don't confuse the fact that I don't understand the situation with
> the
> > > fact that I don't approve of the practice. I do understand and
> for
> > > all academic conversation will speak of the facts if you wish
> > > unemotionally. Just don't try to convince me that killing babies
> is
> > > right; only acceptable.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > > > The Romans would have considered you the Barbarian. A Female
> > > without a
> > > > dowery was doomed to a poor marriage. If you allready had a
> Daughter
> > > > and produced a second Daughter, often either she would have no
> > > Dowery,
> > > > or you would have to harm the daughter you allready had by
> lessening
> > > > her dowery.
> > > >
> > > > You are following the "barbaric" custom of looking at
> indiviuals,
> > > > rather than the "civilized" custom of placing the needs of the
> > > family
> > > > above the needs of an indiviual.
> > > >
> > > > 2000 years from now many of the things you beleave will be
> > > considered
> > > > "barbaric". There are few things as unfair as applying current
> moral
> > > > judgements to peoples who never heard of your basis for making
> those
> > > > judgements.
> > > >
> > > >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13414 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: translation of Italian to English
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Lanio Falconi salutem dicit.

Salve, G. Lani.

I don't have an Italian dictionary and grammar at hand, so you should
probably ask a native speaker of Italian for the fine points. With
that proviso I have tried a reasonably idiomatic English translation:

GOLDEN EAGLE - Aquila chrysaetos

Class: Birds
Order: Accipitriformi
Family: Accipitridi
Morphology: A large diurnal predatory bird found in the Alps (weight
3.5/5 Kg, wingspan 2/2.2 m). The adult presents a dark-brown
colouration, with golden feathers on the upper part of the neck. The
fledglings, or sub-adults in any case, present an ample spot of light
colour with crossing under the wings and tail.
Habitat: Lives in the environment of high mountains (high altitude
prairies), populated by deer, roebucks, marmots, and hares.
Nutrition: Hunting actively average- and large-size prey (marmots,
hares, and, in some rare cases, deer and roebuck). It also endures
long periods of fasting (in the winter season).
Habits: Living both individually and in couples that nest on
inaccessible walls. The young (1 or 2) are born after about 45 days of
hatching and are nourished by both the parents; they can fly on their
own after 70/80 days.
Localization: It is the prerogative of the species to fly over very
immense areas to obtain food; in the Parco della Lessinia it is common
to see the royal eagle flying in the sky, as a couple of these splendid
birds of prey move usually from the Monte Baldo to the Lessinia, to the
Carega and to the Pasubio; in recent years they resumed nesting also in
the more inaccessible zones of our park.

I hope this is helpful.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13415 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: translation of Italian to English
Salve Falco,
you can conctact Illustra Aurelia Iulia Pulchra at
aurelia.iulia.pulchra@... [aurelia. iulia. pulchra @ email.it]
official italian interpreter in the Decuria.
However she could spent her holidays, now, so maybe you must wait
for a week.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Propraetor Italiae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13416 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: Results from the latest Senate session
Salvete Senatores eu Omnes,

I want thank you, Illustri Senatores, to have approved our project
about the Aedilician Fund.
In my opinion this is a very important step to the re-construction
of the original Office of Aediles Curulis and first of all to the
external live projects of Nova Roma. One of our aims is the
conservation and restoration of out Tradition and Culture and I
think the best way to do it is "work in the real world" with
archeological and cultural projects, networks of institutions,
promotion of the Classical Culture, events and demostrations, etc.
Against, this new activity gives a most original financial function
to the Aedilician Quaestor, not obliged now to work only about Ludi.

I'm very happy for the approvation of the Fund, we have several
projects in our mind and a new "chapter" could start for Nova Roma.
First of all we have the Project of Magna MAter Temple in the
PAlatine Hill. We'll present the project to the Senate as soon as
possible and we have several solutions.

I say "thank you" to each Senator, to Consul Quintilianus for the
job, to Iulia Vopisca and all the priests helped us, to Aediles
Marinus for the collaboration, to my wonderful staff and last but
not least Quaestor Serapio and Legatus Perusianus. They are the soul
of this project.

Valete bene
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@a...>
wrote:
> Tribunus Plebis Marcus Marcius Rex Quiritibus SPD
>
> Senate Voting Results published on July 25th 2756.
>
> The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been
> tallied as follows.
>
> Formal debate began at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time, Tuesday 15
> July. Voting began at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time Friday 18 July
> and ended at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time Sunday 20 July in
> accordance with the Senatus Consultum de ratione Senatus. A 48
hour
> voting time extension for the convenience of Senators was
originally
> granted by the presiding magistrate Consul Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus.
> The results published by the presiding magistrate at 0:05 Roman
Time,
> Wednesday 23 July (18:05 EST, Tuesday 22 July) on the Senate list
> included all votes within the extended 96 hour time limit. It was
> later pointed out that the SC de ratione Senatus does not allow
for
> such voting time extensions, which made all votes cast after the
48 -
> hour period technically illegal and therefore void. As enough
votes
> were already cast within the legal 48-hour time frame all Senatus
> Consulta are nonetheless valid. The Tribunes, who failed to point
out
> the illegality of the voting time extension at the time it was
made,
> therefore suggest to the Censors to regard the late votes as
excused
> in the light of the Lex Octavia Senatoria requiring minimum
activity
> from Senators.
>
> The following 13 Senators cast votes in time. They are referred to
> below by their initials, and are listed in alphabetical order by
> nomen:
>
> Marcus Arminius Maior (MAM)
> Marcus Cassius Julianus (MCJ)
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (CFQ)
> Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (DIPI)
> Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonicus (AICPM)
> Titus Labienus Fortunatus (TLF)
> Marcus Minucius Audens (MMA) proxy vote
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus (MOG)
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (LPO)
> Gnaeus Salix Astur (GSA) proxy vote
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus (LSAO)
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus (LSD)
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato (ATMC)
>
> The following Senators cast a vote, but their vote was received
after
> voting
> had ended in accordance with the Senatus Consultum de ratione
Senatus
> and therefore are not included in these results:
>
> Patricia Cassia (PC)
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla (LCS)
> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus (LEC)
> Quintus Fabius Maximus (QFM)
> Caius Flavius Diocletianus (CFD)
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus (AGG)
>
>
> The following Senator did not cast a vote [and his absence was not
> announced
> or justified in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum
and
> the
> LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS]:
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus (CMM)
>
> The necessary majority for a Senatus consultum was therefore 11
votes
> in
> favor. "UTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item, "ANTIQUO"
or
> "NEGAT" is a vote against, and "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
>
> The Agenda items for consideration were as follows:
>
> Item I (passed 13 in favor - 0 opposed)
>
> Aedilian Fund
>
> I have been asked by the two Curule Aediles to propose the
following
> Senatus Consultum. The Curile Aediles of last year already founded
a
> Temple fund. according to their tasks in the Constitution. This
years
> Curule Aediles are convinced that they would like to formalize a
new
> routine according to the proposal for a Senatus Consultum below.
>
> This is a different text than the text that I have presented on
the
> behalf of the Curule Aediles before and I have been told that this
> proposal is better "anchored" than the one before. I hereby ask
the
> Senators to approve the following Senatus Consultum:
>
> ************
> Senatus Consultum on an Aedilician Fund
>
> I. An Aedilician Fund for donations in favour of the projects
handled
> by the Aediles Curules is hereby established. This fund will be
> maintained as part of the Nova Roma bank account, rather than in a
> separate account, because of the following advantages:
>
> a.The donors can be sure that their money is kept in a safe place
and
> that it will not be kept by the magistrate.
> b.People can use money orders and the Nova Roma PayPal account to
> make donations in the same way as they pay taxes or make any other
> donation to Nova Roma.
> c.It will not be necessary to transfer funds to the country in
which
> the current Aediles Curules live.
> d. U.S. residents will have the opportunity to deduct donations on
> their taxes. This wouldn't be possible if the bank account was
> outside USA.
>
> II. The Aedilician Fund may be used only for those projects which
> have been previously approved by the Senate. As a consequence, it
is
> responsibility of the Aediles Curules to submit to the Senate
> detailed proposals for approvation. A proposal shall include as a
> minimum:
>
> a. detailed description of the project
>
> b. amount of money needed
>
> c. information on those people, authorities, institutions which
will
> get the money.
>
> No citizen can deposit funds directly into the Aedilician Fund
> without the Senate approving a project for which money can be
donated.
>
> III. Money contained in the Aedilician Fund can be used only for
the
> purpose to which they have been expressely donated. As a
consequence,
> there is no need for the Senate to vote their allocation, as it is
> the will of the donors that those funds be spent for specific
> projects as defined by the Aediles Curules and previously approved
by
> the Senate itself.
>
> IV. The Aedilician Fund is under the Aediles Curules'
responsibility.
> A detailed record of all donations and their destinations will be
> kept by the Quaestores assigned to the Aediles Curules. The Curule
> Aedilician Quaestores will also provide the Consules with
quarterly
> reports on the Aedilician Fund to be attached to the national
budget
> of Nova Roma.
>
> V. Donors who want to make a donation to the Aedilian Fund must:
> a. indicate that the donation is in favour of the Aedilian Fund
> b. specify the project those money are donated for.
>
> Should the donor fail to meet these conditions the donation will
be
> considered as in favour of the Nova Roma central Treasury.
>
> ****************
>
> I propose that the Senatus approve the proposed Senatus Consultum
> above as it is.
>
> CFQ: UTI ROGAS
> GSA: UTI ROGAS
> MMA: UTI ROGAS
> LSA: UTI ROGAS
> MAM: Uti Rogas
> ATMC: UTI ROGAS
> LPO: Uti Rogas
> DIPI: Uti rogas
> AICPM: UTI ROGAS
> MOG: UTI ROGAS
> LSD: Uti Rogas
> MCJ: UTI ROGAS. This proposal was well thought out. It is in
keeping
> with both Nova Roma's intended 'outside project' goals, and sound
> financial organization.
> TLF: UTI ROGAS
>
> Item II (passed 13 in favor – 0 opposed)
>
> The Governor of Provincia Hispania
>
> **********
> Gnaeus Salix Galaicus has been proposed as Propraetor of Hispania
> since the previous Propraetor has left the province and moved to
> Mexico. Gnaeus Salix Galaicus has accepted the nomination of the
> Provincia.
>
> ***************
>
> I propose that the Senatus appoint Gnaeus Salix Galaicus as
> Propraetor of Provincia Hispania
>
> CFQ: UTI ROGAS
> GSA: UTI ROGAS
> MMA: UTI ROGAS
> LSA: UTI ROGAS
> MAM: Uti Rogas
> ATMC: UTI ROGAS
> LPO: Uti Rogas
> DIPI: Uti rogas
> AICPM: UTI ROGAS
> MOG: UTI ROGAS
> LSD: Uti Rogas
> MCJ: UTI ROGAS. I believe Gnaeus Salix Galacius will do a fine job
as
> provincial governor.
> TLF: UTI ROGAS
>
> Item III (passed 13 in favor -0 opposed)
>
> There is no reason for new citizens to pay the "Late tax payment
fee"
> as they as new citizens never can be late during their first year
as
> citizens. Because of this and a few citizens asking for exception
> from the "Late tax payment fee" I have decided to propose the
> following:
>
> *************
>
> Senatus Consultum about "Late tax payment fee" for new citizens
>
> New cives, shall not have to pay the "Late tax payment fee" in the
> calender year in which they join. This Senatus Consultum will
become
> effective immediately.
>
> **************
>
> I propose that the Senatus approve the above Senatus Consultum
about
> "Late tax payment fee" for new citizens
>
> CFQ: UTI ROGAS
> GSA: UTI ROGAS
> MMA: UTI ROGAS
> LSA: UTI ROGAS
> MAM: Uti Rogas
> ATMC: UTI ROGAS
> LPO: Uti Rogas
> DIPI: Uti rogas
> AICPM: UTI ROGAS
> MOG: UTI ROGAS
> LSD: Uti Rogas
> MCJ: This proposal should help encourage new Citizens to gain full
> rights by holding Assidui status.
> TLF: UTI ROGAS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13417 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: Results from the latest Senate session
Salve Propraetor Galaice,

congratulations for your appointment, I think today Provincia
Hispania have a very skilled and good Governor.
I think you'll do well like you have done for the Ludi and NR.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@a...>
wrote:
> Tribunus Plebis Marcus Marcius Rex Quiritibus SPD
>
> Senate Voting Results published on July 25th 2756.
>
> The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been
> tallied as follows.
>
> Formal debate began at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time, Tuesday 15
> July. Voting began at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time Friday 18 July
> and ended at 23.59 (17:59 EST ) Roman time Sunday 20 July in
> accordance with the Senatus Consultum de ratione Senatus. A 48
hour
> voting time extension for the convenience of Senators was
originally
> granted by the presiding magistrate Consul Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus.
> The results published by the presiding magistrate at 0:05 Roman
Time,
> Wednesday 23 July (18:05 EST, Tuesday 22 July) on the Senate list
> included all votes within the extended 96 hour time limit. It was
> later pointed out that the SC de ratione Senatus does not allow
for
> such voting time extensions, which made all votes cast after the
48 -
> hour period technically illegal and therefore void. As enough
votes
> were already cast within the legal 48-hour time frame all Senatus
> Consulta are nonetheless valid. The Tribunes, who failed to point
out
> the illegality of the voting time extension at the time it was
made,
> therefore suggest to the Censors to regard the late votes as
excused
> in the light of the Lex Octavia Senatoria requiring minimum
activity
> from Senators.
>
> The following 13 Senators cast votes in time. They are referred to
> below by their initials, and are listed in alphabetical order by
> nomen:
>
> Marcus Arminius Maior (MAM)
> Marcus Cassius Julianus (MCJ)
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (CFQ)
> Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (DIPI)
> Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonicus (AICPM)
> Titus Labienus Fortunatus (TLF)
> Marcus Minucius Audens (MMA) proxy vote
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus (MOG)
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (LPO)
> Gnaeus Salix Astur (GSA) proxy vote
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus (LSAO)
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus (LSD)
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato (ATMC)
>
> The following Senators cast a vote, but their vote was received
after
> voting
> had ended in accordance with the Senatus Consultum de ratione
Senatus
> and therefore are not included in these results:
>
> Patricia Cassia (PC)
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla (LCS)
> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus (LEC)
> Quintus Fabius Maximus (QFM)
> Caius Flavius Diocletianus (CFD)
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus (AGG)
>
>
> The following Senator did not cast a vote [and his absence was not
> announced
> or justified in line with the Senatus Consultum defining a quorum
and
> the
> LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS]:
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus (CMM)
>
> The necessary majority for a Senatus consultum was therefore 11
votes
> in
> favor. "UTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item, "ANTIQUO"
or
> "NEGAT" is a vote against, and "ABSTINEO" is an open abstention.
>
> The Agenda items for consideration were as follows:
>
> Item I (passed 13 in favor - 0 opposed)
>
> Aedilian Fund
>
> I have been asked by the two Curule Aediles to propose the
following
> Senatus Consultum. The Curile Aediles of last year already founded
a
> Temple fund. according to their tasks in the Constitution. This
years
> Curule Aediles are convinced that they would like to formalize a
new
> routine according to the proposal for a Senatus Consultum below.
>
> This is a different text than the text that I have presented on
the
> behalf of the Curule Aediles before and I have been told that this
> proposal is better "anchored" than the one before. I hereby ask
the
> Senators to approve the following Senatus Consultum:
>
> ************
> Senatus Consultum on an Aedilician Fund
>
> I. An Aedilician Fund for donations in favour of the projects
handled
> by the Aediles Curules is hereby established. This fund will be
> maintained as part of the Nova Roma bank account, rather than in a
> separate account, because of the following advantages:
>
> a.The donors can be sure that their money is kept in a safe place
and
> that it will not be kept by the magistrate.
> b.People can use money orders and the Nova Roma PayPal account to
> make donations in the same way as they pay taxes or make any other
> donation to Nova Roma.
> c.It will not be necessary to transfer funds to the country in
which
> the current Aediles Curules live.
> d. U.S. residents will have the opportunity to deduct donations on
> their taxes. This wouldn't be possible if the bank account was
> outside USA.
>
> II. The Aedilician Fund may be used only for those projects which
> have been previously approved by the Senate. As a consequence, it
is
> responsibility of the Aediles Curules to submit to the Senate
> detailed proposals for approvation. A proposal shall include as a
> minimum:
>
> a. detailed description of the project
>
> b. amount of money needed
>
> c. information on those people, authorities, institutions which
will
> get the money.
>
> No citizen can deposit funds directly into the Aedilician Fund
> without the Senate approving a project for which money can be
donated.
>
> III. Money contained in the Aedilician Fund can be used only for
the
> purpose to which they have been expressely donated. As a
consequence,
> there is no need for the Senate to vote their allocation, as it is
> the will of the donors that those funds be spent for specific
> projects as defined by the Aediles Curules and previously approved
by
> the Senate itself.
>
> IV. The Aedilician Fund is under the Aediles Curules'
responsibility.
> A detailed record of all donations and their destinations will be
> kept by the Quaestores assigned to the Aediles Curules. The Curule
> Aedilician Quaestores will also provide the Consules with
quarterly
> reports on the Aedilician Fund to be attached to the national
budget
> of Nova Roma.
>
> V. Donors who want to make a donation to the Aedilian Fund must:
> a. indicate that the donation is in favour of the Aedilian Fund
> b. specify the project those money are donated for.
>
> Should the donor fail to meet these conditions the donation will
be
> considered as in favour of the Nova Roma central Treasury.
>
> ****************
>
> I propose that the Senatus approve the proposed Senatus Consultum
> above as it is.
>
> CFQ: UTI ROGAS
> GSA: UTI ROGAS
> MMA: UTI ROGAS
> LSA: UTI ROGAS
> MAM: Uti Rogas
> ATMC: UTI ROGAS
> LPO: Uti Rogas
> DIPI: Uti rogas
> AICPM: UTI ROGAS
> MOG: UTI ROGAS
> LSD: Uti Rogas
> MCJ: UTI ROGAS. This proposal was well thought out. It is in
keeping
> with both Nova Roma's intended 'outside project' goals, and sound
> financial organization.
> TLF: UTI ROGAS
>
> Item II (passed 13 in favor – 0 opposed)
>
> The Governor of Provincia Hispania
>
> **********
> Gnaeus Salix Galaicus has been proposed as Propraetor of Hispania
> since the previous Propraetor has left the province and moved to
> Mexico. Gnaeus Salix Galaicus has accepted the nomination of the
> Provincia.
>
> ***************
>
> I propose that the Senatus appoint Gnaeus Salix Galaicus as
> Propraetor of Provincia Hispania
>
> CFQ: UTI ROGAS
> GSA: UTI ROGAS
> MMA: UTI ROGAS
> LSA: UTI ROGAS
> MAM: Uti Rogas
> ATMC: UTI ROGAS
> LPO: Uti Rogas
> DIPI: Uti rogas
> AICPM: UTI ROGAS
> MOG: UTI ROGAS
> LSD: Uti Rogas
> MCJ: UTI ROGAS. I believe Gnaeus Salix Galacius will do a fine job
as
> provincial governor.
> TLF: UTI ROGAS
>
> Item III (passed 13 in favor -0 opposed)
>
> There is no reason for new citizens to pay the "Late tax payment
fee"
> as they as new citizens never can be late during their first year
as
> citizens. Because of this and a few citizens asking for exception
> from the "Late tax payment fee" I have decided to propose the
> following:
>
> *************
>
> Senatus Consultum about "Late tax payment fee" for new citizens
>
> New cives, shall not have to pay the "Late tax payment fee" in the
> calender year in which they join. This Senatus Consultum will
become
> effective immediately.
>
> **************
>
> I propose that the Senatus approve the above Senatus Consultum
about
> "Late tax payment fee" for new citizens
>
> CFQ: UTI ROGAS
> GSA: UTI ROGAS
> MMA: UTI ROGAS
> LSA: UTI ROGAS
> MAM: Uti Rogas
> ATMC: UTI ROGAS
> LPO: Uti Rogas
> DIPI: Uti rogas
> AICPM: UTI ROGAS
> MOG: UTI ROGAS
> LSD: Uti Rogas
> MCJ: This proposal should help encourage new Citizens to gain full
> rights by holding Assidui status.
> TLF: UTI ROGAS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13418 From: Alejandro Carneiro Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: Results from the latest Senate session
Thanks, aedilis, citizens and senators for your support.

I´ll do the best in my province in favor of NR and her citizenship.

Vale
Gn. Salix Galaicus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> Salve Propraetor Galaice,
>
> congratulations for your appointment, I think today Provincia
> Hispania have a very skilled and good Governor.
> I think you'll do well like you have done for the Ludi and NR.
>
> Vale
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13419 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Gracchus and the manpower c
A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Ambrosius Belisarius and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

It's worth noting that not only female children were
exposed in Rome, and the exposure of male children at
one stage became, indirectly, a major public concern.

The agrarian programme of Ti. Sempronius Gracchus in
the early 130s BC was his reaction to what he
perceived as a decline of Italian manpower. The ready
availability of slaves (as a result of Rome's recent
military successes abroad, which brought in many
prisoners-of-war) allowed large landowners to expand
their estates at the expense of smallholders. The
richer landowners had also over preceding generations
occupied and built on much of the 'ager publicus' -
the fields owned by the state which all citizens could
theoretically cultivate - depriving poorer farmers of
this land.

The result was, Gracchus thought, that many
smallholders were becoming destitute and were
therefore a) unable to afford weapons and armour to
serve in the army themselves, and b) forced to expose
children they couldn't afford to raise, thereby
thinning out the next generation of Roman soldiery. He
foresaw a crisis of military manpower and the
weakening of the state.

How far he was correct about the manpower crisis is
debatable; Brunt discusses the question
comprehensively in the Journal of Roman Studies 1962
in an article called 'The Army and the Land in the
Roman Revolution'. I can't remember whether this
article is one of the ones collected in his book 'The
Fall of the Roman Republic: Selected Essays'; if not,
I imagine the topic is discussed in 'Italian Manpower'
(again by Brunt), a large book which I confess I
haven't read.

But whether Gracchus was correct or not, it shows that
(at times) the Roman state was concerned to combat the
causes of child exposure: poverty and the occupation
of public land by the wealthy. Of course, this wasn't
so much out of kindness as out of long-term
self-interest, but the two often yield the same
results; and though it's not much compared to the
modern welfare state, Rome's 'ager publicus' and corn
dole were real efforts to give people a chance to
escape poverty and avoid the need for child exposure.

Just a side-issue I thought might be of interest.

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13420 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: GENS REGISTRATION: Patresfamilias needed.
Salve Pomponia,

My DIGNITAS, and that of any CIVIS should be one of the uppermost
Roman vitues of concern, especially when one has responsibility as
PATERFAMILIAS. I take my responsibility as PATERFAMILIAS seriously,
although given recent events, perhaps, too seriously. I shall,
therefore, decline your suggestion. I am well aware of all the
Roman vitues and there are some you might also consider exercising.

I should be glad if you would explain exactly how I have failed to
exercise personal discretion - I have already explained at some
length in all sincerity and humility to you the sequence and
circumstances of our private posts. I have also had the honesty,
integrity and personal discretion to immediately admit, publicly, my
error once apparent. I'm afraid to say your acceptance of my apology
does not sound sincere or gracious given your subsequent comments.
You might also learn some humility and generousity of spirit. Where
is your PIETAS I wonder - I see no evidence of it.

Where is your PRVDENTIA ET SEVERITAS when you suggest without any
grounds whatsoever that I may be more concerned with being head if
a "giant" GENS. than leading HIBERNIA? I at least had the PRVDENTIA
ET SEVERITAS, though offended by this remark, not to take you to
task for it, particularly since you are a new CIVIS. Had you
actually joined my GENS. that would have put me at the head of
a "giant" GENS. of 2! Was it not you, in fact, who suggested to me
that GENS. CALIDIA should act as act a vehicle and home for CIVES
from HIBERNIA - was this an example of my or your personal empire
building? Was my offering you a GENS. when you had publicly
indicated your need for one and your wish to meet other CIVES from
HIBERNIA - a case of personal empire building? You seem to forget I
did not have to make such an offer and, in truth, given your
ungracious comments, it is now a regret that I became involved at
all.

I repeat my unaswered previous question to you: who charges me to
lead HIBERNIA and its CIVES - is it the Senate, the people, those
CIVES from HIBERNIA or you? Because the plain truth of the matter
is that, thus far, it is only you. When did you ask or why have you
assumed I have agreed to such a role where is your PRVDENTIA in this
matter?

What is my lack SEVERITAS because, acting on your behalf (NOT my
own) I do not accept the lack of a response from the CENSORES or on
my behalf do not accept and disagree, as PATERFAMILIAS, with how the
CENSORES have come to dissolve my GENS., without my knowledge?
Given my protracted absence and subsequent actions on your behalf,
should I simply accept matters quitely, timidly and without
complaint? Remember my self control was, that I approached the
CENSORES privately and reasonably in the first instance. I was aws
even reasonable in my public address to them. It is only when
matters are presented as a fait a compli without any recourse to
myself that my honour and DIGNITAS were offended. I can assure you,
POMPONIA, I shall always speak the truth as I know it to be, it will
be a sad day for Rome if a CIVIS in pursuit of VERITAS and yes, even
redress, is construed to lack of self control by so doing.

It would appear POMPONIA that it is you who cannot accept graciously
a heartfelt apology and is in light of that apology still unable to
exercise enough self control to resist prolonging the matter by your
offer of "advice".

I now consider the matter closed.


M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
PATERFAMILIAS


TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salve Marce Calidi;
> I accept your apology but in the future suggest you concern
> yourself less with the idea of your Dignitas and strive to
cultivate
> the Roman virtues of Prudentia et Severitas - personal discretion
and
> self-control.
> Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Pomponia,
> >
> > I thank you for your both your private and public replies.
> >
> > With regard to the former, may I Pomponia offer my sincere
> apologies
> > to you?
> >
> > At time of writing my public post to you (VIZ. 23.07.03) I had
not
> > access to my Yahoo mail account which has been giving trouble
all
> > week. On reviewing that mail today, I now find that you
personally
> > did, indeed, have the courtesy and decency to inform me of your
> > acceptance as a CIVIS and the CENSORES decision RE GENS. on the
> same
> > day you received it. Such are the vagaries of Yahoo! Matters
are
> > not helped by the fact that I only have occasional access to a
PC
> > (not mine).
> >
> > Anyway, I thank again not just as a PATERFAMILIAS but as one
CIVIS
> > to another. I hope that I have caused no upset or hurt in my
> > misplaced comments. As I said previously, Pomponia, I genuinely
> bear
> > you no ill will and wish you every success as one of our newest
> > CIVES in NOVA ROMA. I am also sorry that your name was dragged
> into
> > the public domain in this way.
> >
> >
> > Of course, that in no way exonerates the CENSORES actions in
this
> > matter, but, I appreciate that that is not your concern. I am
sure
> > you know that I have publicly written to the CENSORES and
replied
> to
> > our honoured CENSOR GERMANICVS RE this whole sorry affair. You
may
> > also know that, in fairness, the CENSORES have taken prompt
> remedial
> > action and, as a result, I now consider my honour satisfied and
> > DIGNITAS restored.
> >
> > You mention: is not HIBERNIA and its CIVES more important than
one
> > tiny GENS? You also express the hope that I still care for
> > HIBERNIA. POMPONIA, I say this not in a sanctimonius, self-
> > righteous or condescending way but I care dearly and deeply for
my
> > native land, more perhaps, than you or others may ever know. In
all
> > humility, I ask who charges me to lead HIBERNIA or the CIVES of
> > HIBERNIA? I will certainly advocate HIBERNIA's case, defend
with
> > pride her separate identity, push for her status as a PROVINCIA
> and,
> > of course, I will help other CIVES from HIBERNIA to the utmost
of
> my
> > abilities in whatever way I can. Would I be PROPRAETOR of
> HIBERNIA,
> > if I could - Yes - but there are no quick fixes, I have yet to
> > embark on the CVRSVS HONORVM. That would need nomination,
> > canvassing, votes and, of course, election.
> >
> > My GENS. is very important, and something I deliberated over for
> > some time. It was a thoughtful decision but on an historic
figure
> > of the Late Republic, as I indicated tou in one of my private
> posts.
> > Pomponia, I have never been interested in personal Empire
building
> > in gens. But my gens is important.
> >
> > In any event, we can, if you wish, discuss anye matter further
> > privately.
> >
> > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> >
> > tvvs in sodilicio res pvblica romanae
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
> wrote:
> > > ---
> > >
> > > > PATERFAMILIAS GENS. CALIDIA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > > >
> > > > "VERITAS LVX MEA"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001"
<rory12001@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Salve Marce Calidi;
> > > > > the Censores, in my opinion, wisely reinstated my 1st
> > > > application
> > > > > to the active gens Fabia Vera. I believe this is better
for
> > Nova
> > > > Roma
> > > > > as a whole, this is no diminution to your honor but a
> question
> > of
> > > > > practicality and wisdom. Though you are not my
paterfamilias
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > certainly work to create an active Hibernia.
> > > > > Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
> > > > > (unofficially Urania Calidia Antonina)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> > > > > <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS CENSORI MARCO OCTAVIO GERMANICO
> > S.P.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Honoured Censor,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please forgive my public address to you. I do so in my
> > > capacity
> > > > as
> > > > > > PATERFAMILIAS of gens CALIDIA. I have e-mailed you at
the
> > > > CENSORES
> > > > > > official e-mail address some time ago and you personally
> > more
> > > > > > recently but have yet to receive a reply.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I understand that your post is both an onerous and
> extremely
> > > > busy
> > > > > > one -I certainly do not wish to add to your burden. I
have
> > > > written
> > > > > > to you about the acceptance of URANIA CALIDIA ANTONINA
as a
> > > > CIVIS
> > > > > > and my formal adoption of her into gens CALIDIA which I
> have
> > > > > > approved.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps, you would be good enough to contact me at
> > > > > > cybernaut911@y... regarding this matter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanking you in anticipation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > > > > > PATERFAMILIAS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Africa Septentrionalis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.geocities/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius
Germanicus
> > > > > > <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The patresfamilias of the following gentes, each
> > containing
> > > > > > multiple
> > > > > > > citizens, did not reply to the gens registration
request
> > of
> > > > May
> > > > > > and June.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Citizens within these gentes may petition the Censores
to
> > be
> > > > > > appointed
> > > > > > > the new paterfamilias (materfamilias). If more than
one
> > > > person
> > > > > > from any
> > > > > > > gens in this list wishes to assume this position, the
> > > conflict
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > be resolved according to the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis
> > Gentium
> > > > > > > Novaromanarum Agendis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Acilia Postumus Acilius Fylko
> > > > > > > *Aelia Quintus Aelius Vartarius
> > > > > > > Aenea Apollonia Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
> > > > > > > Aetria Titus Aetrius Ferox
> > > > > > > Albia Gaius Albius Gadelicus
> > > > > > > Alexandria Tiberius Alexandrius Marius
> > > > > > > Amatia Marcus Amatius Lupus
> > > > > > > Anncina Secundia Ancinna Octavia
> > > > > > > Annia Lucius Anneus Laurentius
> > > > > > > *Antonia Marcus Antonius Caesar
> > > > > > > Arcadia Marcus Arcadius Pius
> > > > > > > Arria Quintus Arrius Flavius
> > > > > > > Artoria Aulus Artorius Arius
> > > > > > > Asinia Titus Asinius Pollio
> > > > > > > Atlantica Lucius Atlanticus Celtius
> > > > > > > Augusta Marcus Augustus Octavius
> > > > > > > Aurelia Publius Aurelius Varrius
> > > > > > > Australia Mamercus Australius Cicero
> > > > > > > Caecilia Caecilia Leporaria
> > > > > > > Caecilia Metella Lucius Caecilius Metellus Scaevola
> > > > > > > Canadia Falco Canadius Centuri
> > > > > > > Caprenia Gnaea Caprenia Gallia
> > > > > > > Caselia Tiberius Caselius Sidonius
> > > > > > > Castellana Lucullus Castellanus Interamnas
> > > > > > > Claudia Lucentia Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
> > > > > > > Columella Columella Octavia
> > > > > > > Coruncania Titus Coruncanius Rufus
> > > > > > > Corva Lucius Corvus Pallidus
> > > > > > > Curia Martinus Curius Cupidus
> > > > > > > Curtia Lisectus Curtius Barcus
> > > > > > > Didia Gemina Marcus Didius Geminus Falcus
> > > > > > > Domitia Tiberius Domitius Fortis
> > > > > > > Drusilla Gaius Drusillus Lepidus
> > > > > > > Duilia Marcus Duilius Fusconius
> > > > > > > Fabricia Iunia Fabricia Batavia
> > > > > > > Flacca Oppius Flaccus Severus
> > > > > > > Fulvia Marcus Fulvius Flaccus
> > > > > > > Germana Marcellus Germanus Ancinnius
> > > > > > > Gramatinica Toddius Gramatinicus Ahenbarbus
> > > Austinicus
> > > > > > > Hebraea Lupus Hebraeus Levius
> > > > > > > Helvetia Titius Helvetius Gallus
> > > > > > > Hibernia Tiberius Hibernius Gladius
Mortifer
> > > > > > > Hyeania Scipio Hyeanus Africanus
> > > > > > > Iana Andreus Ianus Vir
> > > > > > > Imperia Gaius Imperius
> > > > > > > Inventia Numerius Inventius Barbatus
> > > > > > > Irminia Marcus Irminius Longinus
> > > > > > > Italia Sextus Italius Lupus
> > > > > > > Iucundia Minervina Iucundia Flavia
> > > > > > > Jovia Diocletianus Jovius Herculeius
> > > > > > > Larcia Titus Larcius Mulinus
> > > > > > > Licinia Lucius Licinius Varro Murena
> > > > > > > Longina Marcus Longinus Savo
> > > > > > > Lucia Honoria Lucia
> > > > > > > *Luciana Marius Lucianus Silvanus
> > > > > > > Maira Maria Dia
> > > > > > > Marcella Flavius Marcellus Valerius
> > > > > > > Martia Scipio Martius Bellicus
> > > > > > > Mauricia Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > > > > > > Maxentia Gaius Maxentius Apollonarius Sorex
> > > > > > > Maxima Marcus Maximus Gaius
> > > > > > > Mercuria Julius Mercurius
> > > > > > > Natalina Gaia Natalina Casca
> > > > > > > Nautia Publius Nautius Russus
> > > > > > > Olivaria Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
> > > > > > > Olympia Paulus Olympius Gallus
> > > > > > > Optima Carius Optimus
> > > > > > > Ovidia Julia Ovidia Luna
> > > > > > > Papiria Marcus Papirus Justus
> > > > > > > Pasqualia Ioannus Pasqualius Delavarius
> > > > > > > Paulia Gaius Paulius Africanus
> > > > > > > Petra Josephus Petrus Amicus
> > > > > > > Petronia Attica Petronia Gallia
> > > > > > > *Planincola Laurentius Planincolus Davidius
> > > Germanicus
> > > > > > > Pompeia Gnaeus Pompieus Calamus Verpa
> > > > > > > Pontia Gaius Pontius Falco
> > > > > > > Porcia Marcus Porcius Cato
> > > > > > > *Portia Tiberius Portius Sarno
> > > > > > > Queria Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> > > > > > > Quinta Kaeso Quintus Bellicus
> > > > > > > Quintilia Titus Quintilius Germanicus
> > > > > > > Ritulia Prima Ritulia Nocta
> > > > > > > Romana Caius Romanus Primus
> > > > > > > Romula Servius Romulus Horatius
> > > > > > > Sempronia Tiberius Sempronius Licinius
> > > > > > > Sententiosa Iona Sententiosa Britaega
> > > > > > > Serena Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus
> > > > > > > Sertoria Quintus Sertorius
> > > > > > > Sestia Sextus Sestius Sedigitus
> > > > > > > Silvia Gaius Silvius Agricola
> > > > > > > Solaria Alexander Solaris Draconteus
> > > > > > > Suetonia Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
> > > > > > > Tacitia Tiberius Tacitus Rex
> > > > > > > Tarquinia Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
> > > > > > > Terentia Ferraria Manius Terentius Ferrarius
Longinus
> > > > > > > Theodosia Antonius Theodosius Melinius
> > > > > > > Tituria Vincens Titurius Bellator
> > > > > > > Troica Sextus Troicus Ductor
> > > > > > > Vergilia Sextus Vergilius Maro
> > > > > > > Vibia Publius Vibius Sarmaticus
> > > > > > > Virginia Marcus Virginius Julianus
> > > > > > > Viridia Gallus Viridius Tanicus
> > > > > > > Vitellia Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> > > > > > > (103 gentes)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that these gentes are *NOT* being disbanded, and
> > these
> > > > names
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > not being made available for use by other citizens.
> These
> > > > gentes
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > merely temporarily suspended so that they can
reorganize
> > > > > > themselves.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> > > > > > > Censor, Consular, Citizen.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13421 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Thank you for the reference material.
It is very much appreciated.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GÂ¥IVLIVSÂ¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> For those who are interested in more information about Roman
abortion
> and infanticide practices the following provide a good introduction:
>
> J. Boswell, _The Kindness of Strangers: the Abandonment of Children
in
> Western Europe from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance_ (London,
1988).
> S. Dickison, "Abortion in Antiquity," _Arethusa_ 6 (1973) 159-66.
> D. Engels, "The Problem of Female Infanticide in the Greco-Roman
> World," _Classical Philology_ 75 (1980) 112-20.
> E. Eyben, "Family planning in Graeco-Roman antiquity," _Ancient
> Society_ 11-12 (1980-81) 5-82.
> W.V. Harris, "Child Exposure in the Roman Empire," _Journal of
Roman
> Studies_ 84 (1994) 1-22.
> W.V. Harris, "The Theoretical Possibility of Extensive Infanticide
in
> he Greco-Roman World," _Classical Quarterly_ 32 (1982) 114-16.
> K. Hopkins, "Contraception in the Roman Empire," _Comparative
Studies
> in Social History_ 8 (1965-66) 124-151.
> B.M. Rawson, ed., _The Family in Ancient Rome: New Perspectives_
> (London, 1986).
> J.M. Riddle, _Contraception and Abortion from the Ancient World to
the
> Renaissance_ (Cambridge, Mass., 1992).
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13422 From: Caius Cornelius Varus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Was:GENS REG. Now: Request to take thread offlist
Salvete,
This is directed to Marcus Calidus Graccus et Pomponia Fabia Vera
Attica.

Respectfully, I ask that you please take this thread offlist.

This sort of flame war does nothing to enhance the dignitas of NOva
Roma. This is the Main List and it is the primary place people come
to see what NR is all about aside from novaroma.org. The escalation
of this thread to a flamewar is un-needed.

I understand the seriousness of both of your arguements, but the
cives of Nova Roma probably don't need to see a public arguement.

So, respectfully, could you retire this thread to an offlist one?

Perhonorificus,

Caius Cornelius Varus
Legatus, America Boreoccidentalis Regio I et Regio II
Cives Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13423 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Hello Tiberius, long time, hope you are well.

A court decision and currently I believe it is law.
I'm curious though, in reality or spirituality, when does
the "entity" aquire (for lack of a better word) a "soul".

I know this is more a philosophicle question and we will never know
the answer but what happens during that time the fetus goes from womb
to delivery room that makes the big difference in determining a life.

Speculation here only, I know this is a subject that can get out of
hand and that's why it is probably still such a hot political topic.

P.S.
How did the Butterfly Farm idea go?
I actually just set up my second batch yesterday using Monarch
caterpillars.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Quintus said in part "Again, the fetus is not human and has no
rights, ....."
>
> Yea biologically it's a toaster
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13424 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Ave Quintus,
I certainly don't envy the lawmakers when it comes to this subject.
There are so many variable to take into concideration as well as
ethics and morals. A veritable messy pot of stew to brew.
Be well.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve again Tiberi,
>
> In case I was not clear enough, the drift of my posting is that
> courts determined the fetus is not viable. If that is the case,
they
> cannot turn around and prosecute someone who caused the death of a
> fetus or womens' rights activists who are upset about fetuses being
> aborted just because they are female. If the courts charge a person
> for the death of a fetus they are contradicting themselves. If
> certain groups who pushed for a woman's right cry and want the
> ultrasounds and abortions stopped just because the fetus is female
> then they are being rediculously hypicritical as well.
>
> As Charles Dickens once said " the law is an ass " and I begin to
see
> his point. I'm not debating this issue; I'm merely pointing out a
few
> follies.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus
>
>
> snip
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13425 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Hail Drusus,
Yes, I can see the intricacies that bore upon the matter back then.
So much to be considered in the grand scheme of things.
It must have been a very unique and understanding husband to have an
eldest child be a daughter. Under the circumstances you expressed,
they must have been the rare occasions - either wealthy families or
not overly concerned with political advancement or just very
smpathetic.
As if life back then didn't have enough to worry about from day to
day without adding all the additional pressures of providing an heir
to the family.
Vale


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Ave,
> The importance of the family in Roman society made it more likely
that
> a Female infant would be exposed than a male.
>
> Maintaining or advancing your families place in society was very
> important. Having too many children diluted the patrimony leaving
the
> family poorer. A Pater who did this was failing his duty to his
> family, to both his ancestors who would see thier name deminished
and
> to his decendants who would robbed of thier rightful place in
society.
>
> Sons increased the wealth of the family after the investment in
thier
> carrers started paying off. Daughters cost money in the form of a
> dowery, and allthough a marriage alliance through a daughter could
> help advance the family, a son could do more.
>
> Males carried on the family name and the family rites. Females left
> the family and joined thier husbands family passing on his family
name
> and joining in his family rites. A Son would tend the graves of your
> ancestors, and your grave after you died. A Daughter would be with
her
> husband tending the graves of his ancestors rather than those of
your
> family.
>
> If you could only afford one child, you exposed a Female infant if
it
> came first and tried for a son.
>
> If you could afford 2 Children, 2 sons were prefered in case one
died
> but a son and a daughter were acceptable.
>
> Three children ment you could afford a daughter, but attempting to
> finance the carrers of three sons was impossible for most so a third
> son was more likely to be exposed than a daughter.
>
> In Roma the important thing was if the sex of the infant meet the
> needs of the family. If it didn't the child would be exposed, and
> female infants were less likely to meet the needs of the family than
> male infants.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > Agreed.
> > Yes, the proper reason I menat was if the pregnancy would harm
the
> > mother or if there would be damage to the baby. There are tests
> > today that can show if the baby would be born with a disease or
> > unhealthy syndrome.
> > In that case I could see it happen but know this, in someones
eyes, I
> > will surely appear barbaric and they may be right. That is an
> > acceptable case for me, as the sex determination is For the
ancient
> > Romans (if practiced) in my oppinion.
> >
> > We have gotten off the main topic because of the usage by me of
> > Barbaric but it was taken out of context as an insult to people
of
> > today. I hope you see it wasn't meant that way but an
observation in
> > (of course) my oppinion. My heavans! LOL, I hope that has finally
> > become clear as this topic is finally moving in the right
direction,
> > lol.
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > > Earlier you said "I believe in abortion for the proper reasons"
> > >
> > > Now you say "the fact that the taking of an innocent life for
> > whatever
> > > the reason is wrong"
> > >
> > > Abortion is as much "taking of an innocent life" as Roman
infancide
> > > was. Most modern Abortions happen in the first trimester. The
Romans
> > > did it at the start of the "fourth trimester". That is the
primary
> > > difference.
> > >
> > > BTW exposure wasn't as sure a death as abortion. People did
take in
> > > exposed healthy infants to raise as thier own if it met the
needs of
> > > thier family or to sell them as slaves.
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> > > <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > > > So be it.
> > > > I don't mind being considered barbaric by not participating
in
> > any
> > > > tradition that takes the life of an innocent. I'd rather be
> > barbaric
> > > > in this case than the civilised killer.
> > > > No matter how you try to phrase it, I will accept being
called
> > > > uncivilized or barbarian - those names can not hurt me, you
can't
> > > > change the fact that the taking of an innocent life for
whatever
> > the
> > > > reason is wrong, lol, it just is.
> > > > Ethically? Morally? or because society says it it? You can
not
> > > > change the nature of truth. Yes, it will be compared to the
> > times
> > > > and the needs and may be considered acceptable behavior for
the
> > > > situation but it will still be wrong.
> > > > Don't confuse the fact that I don't understand the situation
with
> > the
> > > > fact that I don't approve of the practice. I do understand
and
> > for
> > > > all academic conversation will speak of the facts if you wish
> > > > unemotionally. Just don't try to convince me that killing
babies
> > is
> > > > right; only acceptable.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > > > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > > > > The Romans would have considered you the Barbarian. A
Female
> > > > without a
> > > > > dowery was doomed to a poor marriage. If you allready had a
> > Daughter
> > > > > and produced a second Daughter, often either she would have
no
> > > > Dowery,
> > > > > or you would have to harm the daughter you allready had by
> > lessening
> > > > > her dowery.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are following the "barbaric" custom of looking at
> > indiviuals,
> > > > > rather than the "civilized" custom of placing the needs of
the
> > > > family
> > > > > above the needs of an indiviual.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2000 years from now many of the things you beleave will be
> > > > considered
> > > > > "barbaric". There are few things as unfair as applying
current
> > moral
> > > > > judgements to peoples who never heard of your basis for
making
> > those
> > > > > judgements.
> > > > >
> > > > >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13426 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Serious? Serious?!? My dear Pontifex Maximus, while I admit that there are many serious aspects of our organization, you should also admit that there are many roles and much playing around in NR. I actually hope that the young lady doesn't read to much of our mainlist because she may develop the idea that we are all a bit crackers.
I wanted to let you know that the class on Roman Reconstructed Paganism that I did in April is bearing more fruit. I have recently been contacted by a pagan assembly in Memphis, TN that asked me to come and teach at their October gathering. If this can be arranged with my schedule, it offers more opportunities to spread the faith.
I am continuing my research into the Arval Brethren but have run into some problems. The french text on the Arval College does not translate well on Babelfish and, despite my basic knowledge of French and Latin, I have found it heavy going. Since I am using editions from Inter-Library Loan, I cannot keep the book for long periods of time. I would appreciate any assistance you and the other pontiffs can provide to me. I still do not feel sufficiently comfortable applying for a priesthood for the Arval Priests yet.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13427 From: Justin Swanstrom Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: New citizen
Salvete,

I am a new citizen of NR and would like to announce myself to the
list.

C. Iulius Iustinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13428 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Salve C. Iulius Iustinus

Welcome to Nova Roma!!!! Please enjoy you next 30-50 years with us.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Justin Swanstrom
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:53 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] New citizen


Salvete,

I am a new citizen of NR and would like to announce myself to the
list.

C. Iulius Iustinus



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13429 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Salve C Iuli!

I big welcome to NR. Beau Juste reminds me of Beau Jeste. Have you
just left the French Foreign Legion for our Roman legions? Have a
great time here and don't hesitate to ask any questions you wish.

Regards,

Quintus






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Swanstrom" <iustinus@i...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I am a new citizen of NR and would like to announce myself to the
> list.
>
> C. Iulius Iustinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13430 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: NOVA ROMAN MEETING 03: accomodation
Salvete Omnes,

some partecipants to the International Nova Roman Meeting in Bologna
from 1st to 3rd August 2003 will accomodate in a comfortable
residence. It's in a wonderful area of the city, near the science
academy and it's a medioeval building.
In the biggest flat (the flat of Quintilianus and Serapio) there is
another place. The price is 35 euro per night and the flat have
bathroom, kitchen, Tv, etc.

If you're interesting to partecipe to the Meeting and take this
place, please contact me at fraelov@... [fraelov @ yahoo.it].
Please, hurry up, the meeting is close!

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13431 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
Congratulations, a major step in the advancement of the Religio; and
Memphis! Sounds like a place wiiith good augury. I love the names
of new places based on the Ancient.
Best wishes, you should post this good news in the Religio Roman List.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> Serious? Serious?!? My dear Pontifex Maximus, while I admit that
there are many serious aspects of our organization, you should also
admit that there are many roles and much playing around in NR. I
actually hope that the young lady doesn't read to much of our
mainlist because she may develop the idea that we are all a bit
crackers.
> I wanted to let you know that the class on Roman Reconstructed
Paganism that I did in April is bearing more fruit. I have recently
been contacted by a pagan assembly in Memphis, TN that asked me to
come and teach at their October gathering. If this can be arranged
with my schedule, it offers more opportunities to spread the faith.
> I am continuing my research into the Arval Brethren but have run
into some problems. The french text on the Arval College does not
translate well on Babelfish and, despite my basic knowledge of French
and Latin, I have found it heavy going. Since I am using editions
from Inter-Library Loan, I cannot keep the book for long periods of
time. I would appreciate any assistance you and the other pontiffs
can provide to me. I still do not feel sufficiently comfortable
applying for a priesthood for the Arval Priests yet.
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13432 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Wwelcome, I hope you find NR to be all that you expect.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Swanstrom" <iustinus@i...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I am a new citizen of NR and would like to announce myself to the
> list.
>
> C. Iulius Iustinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13433 From: Jim Lancaster Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Salve Marce Ambrosi Belisari,

Fascinating how a question about ancient practices primarily resulted in
discussion of current ideology. As an absolute pro-choicer, I'm not going
to step into this minefield on this list, but here is what I've found in my
research:

Septimius Severus, while on campaign in Britain (960-963 AUC, 208-211 CE),
issued the very first ban on abortion, probably in 962 AUC (210 CE). The
reasons behind this legislation are unknown, and I haven't researched into
how heavily it was enforced. There was no law on the books at that time
regulated exposure of infants, which was considered different from
infanticide. Actually killing a child could result in legal penalties
(based on your legal status and the status of the infant). However, by
exposing a child, you were placing it in the hands of the Gods and/or
bucolic childless shepherds, so you weren't actively killing it. Someone
could come along and get it, after all.

At one point, according to Cassius Dio, Severus tried to revive enforcement
of anti-adultery legislation, but that simply clogged the courts with a
backlog of over 3000 cases, so enforcement was apparently dropped.

Possibly related, however, to the ban on abortion was less a concern with
morality or ethics, and more a concern for falling birth rates. Although
Severus has been tarred with the brush of barbarizing the senate, in fact he
strove very hard to maintain the traditional balance of Italians versus
provincials (as shown by Hammond in an article in the Journal of Roman
Studies which citation I do not have handy, and the website is one of those
restricted-access ones). It appears as if the job of finding qualified
Senators, and even Equestrians, was itself a full-time job, and percentage
increase of provincials (based on the fraction of actually known Senators &
Equestrians) is slow and gradual over the course of his reign and that of
his immediate successors. Preference was given to Romans, Italians, and
already-represented provinces in that order, before new provincials were
admitted. It is true that under his reign the first Egyptian was admitted
to the senate, P.(?) Aelius Coeranus, probably sometime after 953 AUC (201
CE). However, Coeranus was a crony of the Praetorian Prefect Fulvius
Plautianus, and banished back to Egypt in 957 AUC (205 CE) when young
Caracalla set up and murdered Plautianus. Ironically, Caracalla
rehabilitated a number of people who fell along with Plautianus after he
murdered his brother Geta and assumed sole power, and among them was
Coeranus and his son, Publius.

So, stepping off that tangent back onto the topic, I'm wondering of the ban
on abortion was not something intended for the lower classes but only for
the upper classes, to encourage reproduction. Almost every Republican-era
family had in fact died out by the time of Severus' accession, with the most
distinguish being the joint Scipio Orfiti/Calpurnius Pisones, who still
didn't provide an ordinary consul after the mid-920s AUC (170s CE). The
nobility in the senate at that time were almost entirely comprised of those
so elevated by either Augustus or his successors. Of course, a fair amount
of that decline can be chalked up to political murder, but there is also an
element of decline in children surviving to adulthood that played its own
part, a process that had already begun in the late Republican period, from
what I can tell.

As usual, if I've bolluxed anything, please feel free to point it out ;o).
But this is what I can see on the issue, at this point in my research.

Vale,

CN. IVLIVS STRABO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13434 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
WONDERFUL!
Thanks so much, this was the type of information I sought.
It is a fascinating string of thopught that goes from a question of
ancient practice to the wide array of replies as did this one, lol.
I admire your willpower in avoiding the bog this was and could become
again, lol.
In all fairness, we do have a wide variety of citizens here and 10
people can read the same question 10 different ways and only see that
which sings to their personal muse and miss the rest - especially in
a topic that can hold very strong emotions such as this one.
Thanks again for the great reply and oppinion on the matter.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@f...>
wrote:
> Salve Marce Ambrosi Belisari,
>
> Fascinating how a question about ancient practices primarily
resulted in
> discussion of current ideology. As an absolute pro-choicer, I'm
not going
> to step into this minefield on this list, but here is what I've
found in my
> research:
>
> Septimius Severus, while on campaign in Britain (960-963 AUC, 208-
211 CE),
> issued the very first ban on abortion, probably in 962 AUC (210
CE). The
> reasons behind this legislation are unknown, and I haven't
researched into
> how heavily it was enforced. There was no law on the books at that
time
> regulated exposure of infants, which was considered different from
> infanticide. Actually killing a child could result in legal
penalties
> (based on your legal status and the status of the infant).
However, by
> exposing a child, you were placing it in the hands of the Gods
and/or
> bucolic childless shepherds, so you weren't actively killing it.
Someone
> could come along and get it, after all.
>
> At one point, according to Cassius Dio, Severus tried to revive
enforcement
> of anti-adultery legislation, but that simply clogged the courts
with a
> backlog of over 3000 cases, so enforcement was apparently dropped.
>
> Possibly related, however, to the ban on abortion was less a
concern with
> morality or ethics, and more a concern for falling birth rates.
Although
> Severus has been tarred with the brush of barbarizing the senate,
in fact he
> strove very hard to maintain the traditional balance of Italians
versus
> provincials (as shown by Hammond in an article in the Journal of
Roman
> Studies which citation I do not have handy, and the website is one
of those
> restricted-access ones). It appears as if the job of finding
qualified
> Senators, and even Equestrians, was itself a full-time job, and
percentage
> increase of provincials (based on the fraction of actually known
Senators &
> Equestrians) is slow and gradual over the course of his reign and
that of
> his immediate successors. Preference was given to Romans,
Italians, and
> already-represented provinces in that order, before new provincials
were
> admitted. It is true that under his reign the first Egyptian was
admitted
> to the senate, P.(?) Aelius Coeranus, probably sometime after 953
AUC (201
> CE). However, Coeranus was a crony of the Praetorian Prefect
Fulvius
> Plautianus, and banished back to Egypt in 957 AUC (205 CE) when
young
> Caracalla set up and murdered Plautianus. Ironically, Caracalla
> rehabilitated a number of people who fell along with Plautianus
after he
> murdered his brother Geta and assumed sole power, and among them was
> Coeranus and his son, Publius.
>
> So, stepping off that tangent back onto the topic, I'm wondering of
the ban
> on abortion was not something intended for the lower classes but
only for
> the upper classes, to encourage reproduction. Almost every
Republican-era
> family had in fact died out by the time of Severus' accession, with
the most
> distinguish being the joint Scipio Orfiti/Calpurnius Pisones, who
still
> didn't provide an ordinary consul after the mid-920s AUC (170s
CE). The
> nobility in the senate at that time were almost entirely comprised
of those
> so elevated by either Augustus or his successors. Of course, a
fair amount
> of that decline can be chalked up to political murder, but there is
also an
> element of decline in children surviving to adulthood that played
its own
> part, a process that had already begun in the late Republican
period, from
> what I can tell.
>
> As usual, if I've bolluxed anything, please feel free to point it
out ;o).
> But this is what I can see on the issue, at this point in my
research.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN. IVLIVS STRABO
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13435 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: New citizen
Salve Justinus;
welcome to Nova Roma from one new citizen to another! If you
haven't taken it, I really recommend the Nova Roma Course being given
by Academia Thule. Not only is it helpful but it's a wonderful way to
meet the other cives.
Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Swanstrom" <iustinus@i...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I am a new citizen of NR and would like to announce myself to the
> list.
>
> C. Iulius Iustinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13436 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
Somewhat off-topic does anyone who has had the misfortune to pick gooseberries suspect that 'found under a goosegog bush' might at one time have been literally true? For those unfamiliar, they have thorns nearly an inch long and branches grow down, inward, and any ways they like instead of out and up like most bushes.


Caesariensis

-----Original Message-----
From : =?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@...>
To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 25 July 2003 01:24:18
Subject : [Nova-Roma] Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
>Salvete, Quirites.
>
>For those who are interested in more information about Roman abortion
>and infanticide practices the following provide a good introduction:
>



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13437 From: Paula Drennan Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: timing of posts??
Salve,
I'm curious. I was reading my mail, in the orderit was recieve, and I got to
a post regarding the RP post, and the RP post was delivered to my box, about
5 minutes after the response to said post...anyone else see this happening?
I use Outlook Express to read my mail offline when I've got loads of mail
and don't wanna be on yahoo for hours.

Vale,
CF Calpurnia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13438 From: Paula Drennan Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
> Quintus said in part "Again, the fetus is not human and has no
rights, ....."
>
> Yea biologically it's a toaster
>

Salve,
If one were to view it this way, I would call the fetus the toast, the
uterus the toaster and the woman whose body all this is in to be the
eletrical outlet.
Now I recall this all started with aposting on female infanticide and the
second class status of women in old Roma? I have to ask this one question:
Are we citizens of old Roma or Nova Roma? does Nova Roma encourage such
attitudes? I am sure it does not, as I am female, and a citizen. Yes it is
sad that even today there are societies where abortions are performed simply
because the gender of the fetus is not the desired one, but most of us do
not live in those socities. For those that do, I'm sure they can work on
making changes from within. Of course, China was brought up, and they have
laws in place tha allow families only one child. It is a sad thing, but from
their stand point necessary. They could let people indiscriminately have
children, then they would have children dying in early childhood from
starvation, so the child would die one way or another. Abortion at least
does not force the mother to listen to her child screaming with hunger. So
it could be viewed as merciful in a that way.I'm not saying I agree or
disagree with it, it is something that is happening in the world. I'm not
sure what anyone outside of the Chinese government could change. I've got
enough on my plate trying to stay involved int he goings on in my on small
corner of the globe. That may sound selfish of me, but I'm sure i'm not hte
only one who feels that way.
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13439 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-25
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
--- Paula Drennan <dragonpink@...> wrote:

> Salve,
> If one were to view it this way, I would call the
> fetus the toast, the
> uterus the toaster and the woman whose body all this
> is in to be the
> eletrical outlet.
> Now I recall this all started with aposting on
> female infanticide and the
> second class status of women in old Roma? I have to
> ask this one question:
> Are we citizens of old Roma or Nova Roma?

Drusus: We are citizens of Nova Roma many of whom have
a historic intrest in the Roma Antiquita. Do you
suggest we ignore the real Roma whenever it fails to
meet some arbitrary standard of political correctness?

> does Nova Roma encourage such
> attitudes? I am sure it does not, as I am female,
> and a citizen. Yes it is
> sad that even today there are societies where
> abortions are performed simply
> because the gender of the fetus is not the desired
> one, but most of us do
> not live in those socities.

Drusus: Look again. Some organizations seek to limit
sex determination technology because even in the
modern liberated west many people still consider male
children more desirable than female children. this
technology is being used in the west today. You can
concive a child of the desired sex,

http://www.fertility-docs.com/fertility_gender.phtml

Many of these invitro techniques involve disposing of
the embryos of the unwanted sex, which is female far
more often than male. Aren't those half dozen female
embryos aborted just as effectily as the ones carried
by a half dozen Asian women?

The same social preasures that create clinics like
that are at work when that first ultrasound determines
the sex of the child. Women in the west have an
unlimited choice, and some make a choice that you may
disapprove of.

> For those that do, I'm
> sure they can work on
> making changes from within. Of course, China was
> brought up, and they have
> laws in place tha allow families only one child. It
> is a sad thing, but from
> their stand point necessary. They could let people
> indiscriminately have
> children, then they would have children dying in
> early childhood from
> starvation, so the child would die one way or
> another.

Drusus: Or they could tottaly abbandon the "reforms"
introduced after the civil war ended in 1949. The ones
that led to past famines in the 1950s and give them
little hope of coping with choice in reproduction.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13440 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> Serious? Serious?!? My dear Pontifex Maximus, while I admit that
>there are many serious aspects of our organization, you should also
>admit that there are many roles and much playing around in NR. I
>actually hope that the young lady doesn't read to much of our
>mainlist because she may develop the idea that we are all a bit
>crackers.

> I wanted to let you know that the class on Roman Reconstructed
>Paganism that I did in April is bearing more fruit. I have recently
>been contacted by a pagan assembly in Memphis, TN that asked me to
>come and teach at their October gathering. If this can be arranged
>with my schedule, it offers more opportunities to spread the faith.

Salve F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus,

This coming fall a small delegation is planning to represent Nova
Roma at Eastern Massachusett's Pagan Pride. The point of contact is
Nova Britannia's Propraetor, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus.
hadrianus@... Could it be possible for you to share some
of your experience in teaching about the Religio with him?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13441 From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Festus Lexicon Project
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Festus Lexicon Project":

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/history/festus/

The Festus Lexicon Project (Dept .of History, University College
London) is a research effort aimed at creating a database of the text
of Festus' _De verborum significatu_ and Paul the Deacon's epitome of
Festus' work, commentary, and bibliography. Sextus Pompeius Festus
(late 2nd century CE) is the author of the only extant Latin dictionary
from antiquity, whose work also preserves valuable fragments from the
antiquarians and grammarians Marcus Terentius Varro (116–27 BC) and
Marcus Verrius Flaccus (ca. 20 BCE).

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13442 From: lucius_lucillus_catiline Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Temporary exile
Salvete

Due to problems with my PC my internet access is severely restricted,
and accordingly i won't have access to this list for a while.
Hopefully it will be resolved soon...

Vale

Lucius Lucillus Catiline
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13443 From: José Luis Fernández del Valle Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Re: RECUERDOS DE NUESTRA ROMANIDAD
Saludos Marcus Adrianus,

A mi, tu mensaje, no me ha llamado la atención lo más mínimo. Soy un híbrida de sangre astur, aunque por motivos de trabajo resido en la amurallada ciudad de Lugo. Por avatares del destino yo, un amante de la historia de Roma, he ido a establecerme en una ciudad con tan grandioso legado (termas, muralla, etc.) como la bimilenaria que me acoge. Sin embargo, no deja de sorprenderme y, en gran medida, entristecerme, el trato mediocre que el Ayuntamiento, la Diputación y la Xunta confieren a tan bellos recuerdos del pasado. Es de suponer que estamos en una provincia rica en historia, y que las autoridades deberían velar por destacar urbanísticamente un bien tan preciado y a la par tan poco común, pero sin embargo todo el mundo parece obviar la importancia de estos monumentos, e incluso de los importantísimos yacimientos que el subsuelo cercano a la muralla está actualmente desvelando.
En cuanto a éste último punto, tan sólo comentar que las excavaciones de la zona de la muralla sita frente a la Catedral, están sacando a relucir infinidad de restos romanos, tumbas, cimientos y objetos varios. Pero sin duda, el objeto que más me ha llamado la atención ha sido un ara de piedra de aproximadamente 1,3 metros de alto y perfectamente conservada. Parece ser que el ara se ofrendó en el Templo a Mitra que se sospecha estaba ubicado allí (¿quizás bajo la actual catedral?). Estaba dedicada por un centurión del siglo III A.D. al bienestar de dos de sus esclavos libertos y al de la propia guarnición en la que servía... Impresionante...

Dentro de la ciudad, murallas adentro, yo mismo fui testigo de como sacaban a la luz hace cosa de un año, un mosaico de importantes dimensiones también perfectamente conservado (cuando lo vi, me sorprendió el que estuviera igual que si acabaran de hacerlo). Calculo que debía de ser un cuadrado de unos 7 metros de lado, aunque no llegué a verlo entero. Lo encontraron cavando una calle para meter tuberías, aproximadamente a 1.5 metros de profundidad. Actualmente, han tapado la zona con una capa de cemento, no se si para conservarlo o para intentar enterrarlo de nuevo en el olvido.

Valete bene

Marcus Rutilius Caesar
Cives Romanus





Exegi monumentum aere perennius, regalique situ piramidum altius. Non omnis moriar...


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13444 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-26
Subject: Celtic Linguistics
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here are two links to reports on a fascinating aaplication of molecular
genetics methods to the study of the ancient and modern Celtic
languages:

http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2003070301

http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/03_7now/030703a.html

Peter Forster, a molecular geneticist (Cambridge Univ.), and Alred
Toth, a historical and comparative linguist (Univ. of Zurich), have
applied a mathemtical model used to date DNA samples by mutation rates
to historical reconstruction of the development of the Celtic and Indo-
European languages. The starting point for this research was analysis
of the six extant Gallic-Latin bilingual inscriptions from which a
sample of 35 words was extracted for analysis of their evolution in
Latin, Classical Greek, Old Irish, and the modern versions of Irish,
Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, French, Occitan, Spanish and Basque.

Their research has been published in: P. Forster and A. Toth, "Toward a
phylogenetic chronology of ancient Gaulish, Celtic, and Indo-European,"
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 100 (2003), 9079-9084.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13445 From: Alejandro Carneiro Date: 2003-07-27
Subject: Oath of office
In latin, english and spanish versions.


Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso facto
sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus publicae
vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
persequi.
Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae religionis
aliquid detrimenti capiat.
Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) IVRO
quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque deabus
et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae ACCIPIO
una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum munus
comportat.

In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles

--------------------------------

I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
Carneiro López), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
private life.
I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to uphold
and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.
I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE to the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

In Hispania Provincia, 7-27-2003

------------------------

Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), por la presente
juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar siempre
por los legítimos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.

Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
Carneiro López), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis
actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida
pública y privada.

Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro mantener y
defender la Religión Romana como Religión Estatal de Nova Roma, y
nunca actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su condición de
Religión del Estado.

Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro proteger y
defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.

Yo,Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro además
cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de
Propraetor de Hispania, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y
habilidades.

En mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma y en presencia de los dioses y
diosas del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el puesto
de Propraetor de Hispania y todos los derechos, privilegios,
obligaciones y responsabilidades que mi puesto comporta.


En la provincia Hispania, 27 Julio de 2003
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13446 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-07-27
Subject: Re: Celtic Linguistics
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here are two links to reports on a fascinating aaplication of
> molecular genetics methods to the study of the ancient and modern
> Celtic languages:
>
> http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2003070301
>
> http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/03_7now/030703a.html
>
> Peter Forster, a molecular geneticist (Cambridge Univ.), and Alred
> Toth, a historical and comparative linguist (Univ. of Zurich), have
> applied a mathemtical model used to date DNA samples by mutation
> rates to historical reconstruction of the development of the Celtic
> and Indo-European languages. The starting point for this research
> was analysis of the six extant Gallic-Latin bilingual inscriptions
> from which a sample of 35 words was extracted for analysis of their
> evolution in Latin, Classical Greek, Old Irish, and the modern
> versions of Irish, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, French, Occitan,
> Spanish and Basque.
>
> Their research has been published in: P. Forster and A.
> Toth, "Toward a phylogenetic chronology of ancient Gaulish, Celtic,
> and Indo-European," Proceedings of the National Academy of
> Sciences 100 (2003), 9079-9084.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

A very interesting article. Thank you very much for sharing it with
us, Gai Iuli.

I find it of personal interest because I have spent some time with
Labarion, a constructed language that tries to portray how 1st
century Gaulish could have looked like by reconstructing the missing
parts from Old Irish and Old Welsh.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celticaconlang/

http://www.iespana.es/ideolengua/labarion_antoniotolosa.htm
(in Spanish)

Labarion was created by Antonio Tolosa, whose knowledge of ancient
Irish and Welsh is truly phenomenal (at least from my point of view).
It is a very interesting idea.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13447 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: [Fwd: ]
Salvete, quirites.

Attempting to forward a mail received to the "webmaster" address. If
someone feels like answering the individual in question, please do.

Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13448 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: [Fwd: ]
Salvete, quirites.

*sigh* God I hate e-mails in html. Here's the contents of the mail, the
sender's addie (in case it gets eaten by yahoo) is jagf AT earthlink DOT
net.

Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.

"Juan A. Garcia-Fuertes" <jagf@...> wrote:
> Sir
>
> Was it not the end of the western empire in
> 475 CE under Romulus Augustulus?
> Your Web Site indicates 330CE.
>
> Regards
>
> Juan A. Garcia-Fuertes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13449 From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
In a message dated 7/24/03 12:08:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjk@... writes:


> . I do think the Romans did not have the technology,
> aside from toxic herbs to terminate a pregnency. I'm sure they would
> have done so in place of infanticide had they the medical knowledge.
>

We know from Tacitus that Patricians who wanted to terminate their pregnancy
by a lover, would use a vaulting horse to cause a miscarriage.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13450 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: IMP: Wrong paiement
Salvete,

a citizen has made a mistake in paying taxes last Saturday. The email adress is
postumius@.... Please ASAP contact the Quaestores for clarification.
Thank you.

Vale,

Scipio

> Citizen : #4760, Titus Arminius Genialis
> Amount : 4.00
> Date : 2003/7/27
> Tracking: #00452
>
> The Quaestores of Nova Roma have processed your payment and updated
> your records.
>
> Thank you for making this contribution. You are now classified as
> "Assidui" with all of the rights and priviliges pertaining to a
> contributing member of Nova Roma. You can see your Assidui status
> on your personal Album Civium page,
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4760
>
> This automatically-generated email serves as your receipt.
>
> If you have any questions, please contact payments@....


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13451 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Database for Archaeological Pottery
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Database for Archaeological Pottery":

http://helios.unive.it/~termo/DataBank/BancaDati.htm

This site, created by U.O. Beni Culturali, Dr. Mariangela Bertelle, and
Prof. Sandro Calogero (Univ. of Venice), provides chemical data for the
composition of archaeological pottery from a large number of
excavations which aids in provenancing and dating sherds.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13452 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: roman detective story
Salvete,

Some of you might share my interest on reading detective stories in
Summer holidays. I have heard numerous times some recommendations
about Roman detective stories but I haven't got enough time this
Summer to read any other than Sherlock Holmes canon through (thanks
for the Gnaeus Salix Astur for his constant pressure to read them!).
However on last Saturday I came to thought to write one of my own.
And here is the result, it consists of 4 chapters and I will post
them one per day now that I'm waiting for Bologna meeting next
weekend. I know there are numerous historical flaws which I perhaps
will someday correct along with grammatical errors resulted from the
fact that English is not native language. But maybe for some of you
this small story will bring about relaxation.

Valete,


-----
Tragedy at Ludi Romani

The characters:

Publius Laetonius Crispus
-Rising politician in Rome

Quintus Valerius Italicus
-Old trader, client of Pub. Laetonius

Diodotus
-Clerk of Quintus Valerius Italicus, originally from Greece, slave


The characters of this story:

Oppius Fabius Rusticus
-Owner of the luxorious villa just outside the city walls of Rome

Aulus Flavius Iovinus
-Victim of brutal murder

Claudia, niece of Aulus Flavius Iovinus
-Found dead from her home

Postumus Calventius Velius
-Rising actor and the pet of higher society feasts

Domitia, wife of Postumus Calventius Velius
-From humble conditions before marrying Post. Calventius

Livia, widow of Marcus Clovius
-One of the members of the group that came to the fateful villa

Manius Florius Castus
-The uncle of Aulus Flavius Iovinus

Secundus Varius Maro
-One of the guests at the villa


Chapter 1 : Visit from a Friend in the Autumn Morning

This writing belongs to Diodotus, also known as Quintus Valerius
Diodotus after his manumissio from his most gracious master Quintus
Valerius Italicus. Let it be known that this writing is to be
published, but not before full five years has passed after the death
of Diodotus. The priests in the temple of Minerva on the Aventinus
hill shall take care that this condition is met.

Within these scrolls I, Diodotus, will tell about the mysteries
solved by my honoured master, Quintus Valerius Italicus. Such
wonderful stories should not let be untold even though there is no
close family to tell them further. That is why I feel that it is my
duty to tell them to those who are to become after us in this world.

My master was born into the noble clan of Valerius, even though he is
not from the most succesful family line. His family was from Arpinum
and locally famous for its successful makers of olive oil. The
tradition was that the older son will continue the manufacture of the
olive oil and the younger son will act as a trader. My master was the
younger son and so he grew up learning how to buy and sell and from
young age he was traveling all over the Italian peninsula. He was
literally born trader and when he reached his full legal age he was
already known as a fair and respectable young merchant. In his mature
years he learned to trade numerous products and was so widely known
that he got cognomen Italicus. He managed to get himself enough
wealth that he could settle himself to Rome in his old days and he
continued selling some luxury items for the most noble families in
the eternal city. As he no more was that active in the field of
merchandice he became to have a second career as an invaluable helper
of one young rising politician, Publius Laetonius Crispus, as an
advisor. Outsiders probably never knew how important he was for him.
In these stories I have told the absolute truth of the invaluable
services my master gave to his young friend.

What comes to me, your humble servant, I was born in the beautiful
lands of Greece and when I was still very young I was caught by the
Roman soldiers and sold as a slave. My master once picked me from the
group of slaves presented to him and gave me a job as an assistant of
his chief clerk. So I spent my adolescence in writing of endless
amount of business deals and letters for my master and when his old
chief clerk got his manumission I was raised onto his place as
natural successor. For years I took care of my masters most important
accounts and when my master retired to Rome he took me with him as
his private secretary. It was to according to my own wish that he
would keep me in his service as long as possible, as I felt I was
living a perfect life and liked my master very much.

It was some years after the most turbulent tribuneship of Titus
Sempronius Gracchus than I was taking a dictation for some private
letter from my master, in his study. It was a warm Autumn morning,
just after Sunrise. Yesterday it had been the highlight of the Ludi
Romani with the long-waited chariot race, where the Praesina (green)
team had won fabulously. My master said that he was too old for that
kind of things, but still he had allowed me to go and see the race.
He was just finishing his dictation when a servant came to us,
apologised for the interruption and told that there was a visitor
waiting for my master in the visitor's room. My master asked who it
was and the servant answered giving his name.

"By then all means, show him in here" my master said to the servant
who brought the visitor in to the study.

"Publius, son of Marcus" my master exclamated and continued at once:
"What on earth brings you here? I think I need not to remind you that
you could have invited me to your house to save you the trouble of
coming here!"

"Far be it from me that I would ask the honoured friend of my late
father to set burden on his old feet for my trivial interests, it is
the duty of young to walk and let the old ones enjoy their well
reserved days of rest!"

Publius Laetonius Crispus was the son of Marcus Laetonius as my
master indicated in his welcoming. Old Marcus had been a very close
friend to my master even being of more noble origin. They had met on
some of my masters trips, and even after the economical ties between
them had become lesser in importance, they were drawn into each
others company. Unofortunately Marcus Laetonius had had problems with
his health and all people who knew him said that he was taken into
the kingdom of death well before his time. Publius was the sole
inheritor of quite considerable wealth and was determined to use his
talents for the benefit of the state. My master was not so close to
him in the beginning, but during the years young Publius had needed
some financial advice and my master had proven to be loyal assistant
on those matters. This time, however, it was evident from the looks
of our early visitor that there were some more pressurising things at
hand. My master waved for me to leave him and Publius Laetonius
alone, and so I gathered my writing tablet and went to my room to
write the final version of the letter.

The visit lasted quite long, and when our visitor left, my master
asked me to join him to the garden. The morning sun had risen up
higher and it threw some nicely warming rays on the stone bench that
we sat on in the garden. My master gave me a quick summary of the
peculiar chain of events that Publius Laetonius had told him. Before
that he said:

"You probably don't know this, but I was quite close to the Marcus
Laetonius, Publius' father. You know that we had some mutual business
interests, but I was also his advisor for some special cases when he
could not trust anyone else. They were mainly political things and
there is no need for me to give any longer account about them as they
are history now and not of interest in today. It seems that Marcus
Laetonius has given his son an advice to turn to me if he should need
similar kind of help that his father did from time to time."

I nodded, not really understanding what my master had just said, but
his expression told me that I was maybe to find it out soon. Now
after many years I know what he meant and I'm sure that those who
read this writing will also be enlighted.

---- end of chapter 1 ----

--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13453 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Oath of office
Salve Illustris Gnaeus Salix Galaicus!

My heartfelt Congratulation to your appointment as Propraetor of Hispania!


>Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso facto
>sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
>Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
>Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
>Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus publicae
>vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
>persequi.
>Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
>religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
>religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae religionis
>aliquid detrimenti capiat.
>Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) IVRO
>quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
>Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque deabus
>et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae ACCIPIO
>una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum munus
>comportat.
>
>In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13454 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
--- qfabiusmaxmi@... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/24/03 12:08:45 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> mjk@... writes:
>
>
> > . I do think the Romans did not have the
> technology,
> > aside from toxic herbs to terminate a pregnency.
> I'm sure they would
> > have done so in place of infanticide had they the
> medical knowledge.
> >
>
> We know from Tacitus that Patricians who wanted to
> terminate their pregnancy
> by a lover, would use a vaulting horse to cause a
> miscarriage.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
Toxic herbs and miscarriages induced by horsees seem
to be a bit more dangrous to women than the procedures
performed today, and likely were more dangrous than
childbirth was in Antiquita.

If the Romans had our prenatal screenings and abortion
technology I think it's likely that they would have
made use of that more often than exposure. They
weren't all that different from moderns in that
regard.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13455 From: Marcus Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Taxes
Salvete onmes,

As a new cives I read here about the payment of Nova-Roma taxes, but
I don't find information about it (amount and payment dates).

Valete bene.

Marcus Adrianus Complutensis
(Hispania)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13456 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Taxes
Salvete Marce Adriane omnesque

> As a new cives I read here about the payment of Nova-Roma taxes, but
> I don't find information about it (amount and payment dates).

The deadline for remitting taxes this year was the last day of Aprilis. The
amount due depends upon the provincia you reside in. You can find a schedule
of tax rates along with a list of the methods of payment by following this link:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/consul-2003-03-03-i.htm

As a new civis, you are exempt from the late fee until next year.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13457 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Taxes
Thanks.

labienus@... wrote:Salvete Marce Adriane omnesque

> As a new cives I read here about the payment of Nova-Roma taxes, but
> I don't find information about it (amount and payment dates).

The deadline for remitting taxes this year was the last day of Aprilis. The
amount due depends upon the provincia you reside in. You can find a schedule
of tax rates along with a list of the methods of payment by following this link:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/consul-2003-03-03-i.htm

As a new civis, you are exempt from the late fee until next year.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13458 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: "role playing" post
I would be happy to share my experience with the propraetor if he would like me to do so. If you, Calvus, would have him get in touch with me, I will correspond with him.

F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13459 From: GirlinBriteSandals Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Taxes
Salve,

In Eastern provinces, taxes can be paid in grain and leather goods. The Imperial tax collectors are contracted with Syrian merchants who buy grain and leather with Roman money.

May We See the Rosy Fingered Dawn Again,

GirlinBriteSandals


"M.Adrianus Complutensis" <marcusadrianuscomplutensis@...> wrote:
Thanks.

labienus@... wrote:Salvete Marce Adriane omnesque

> As a new cives I read here about the payment of Nova-Roma taxes, but
> I don't find information about it (amount and payment dates).

The deadline for remitting taxes this year was the last day of Aprilis. The
amount due depends upon the provincia you reside in. You can find a schedule
of tax rates along with a list of the methods of payment by following this link:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/consul-2003-03-03-i.htm

As a new civis, you are exempt from the late fee until next year.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus



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---------------------------------
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Nueva versión: Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más #161;Gratis!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13460 From: GirlinBriteSandals Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: roman detective story
Khaire,



I like your straightforward telling and the ambience of the your master's garden in early morning.

We're neighbors. I'm Kallipedila, a Greek girl residing in a Senator's villa, near your master's house.

Your master was gracious when we met, by chance, by the brook behind the apple grove. I'm used to being only one at this brook. I sence the Nymph, who inhabits the brook, and enjoy sitting for hours. So, I was surprised when your master appeared. He, also treasues this spot of peace and solitude remarkably near the city.

He knows Greek girls don't usually leave the house. But, is not pressing or impolite.

I didn't know he solves mysteries. He's not a man to sings his own praises.

I'd like to read more of your story.

Your Respectful Greek Neighbor,

GirlinBriteSandals


Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@...> wrote:
Salvete,

Some of you might share my interest on reading detective stories in
Summer holidays. I have heard numerous times some recommendations
about Roman detective stories but I haven't got enough time this
Summer to read any other than Sherlock Holmes canon through (thanks
for the Gnaeus Salix Astur for his constant pressure to read them!).
However on last Saturday I came to thought to write one of my own.
And here is the result, it consists of 4 chapters and I will post
them one per day now that I'm waiting for Bologna meeting next
weekend. I know there are numerous historical flaws which I perhaps
will someday correct along with grammatical errors resulted from the
fact that English is not native language. But maybe for some of you
this small story will bring about relaxation.

Valete,


-----
Tragedy at Ludi Romani

The characters:

Publius Laetonius Crispus
-Rising politician in Rome

Quintus Valerius Italicus
-Old trader, client of Pub. Laetonius

Diodotus
-Clerk of Quintus Valerius Italicus, originally from Greece, slave


The characters of this story:

Oppius Fabius Rusticus
-Owner of the luxorious villa just outside the city walls of Rome

Aulus Flavius Iovinus
-Victim of brutal murder

Claudia, niece of Aulus Flavius Iovinus
-Found dead from her home

Postumus Calventius Velius
-Rising actor and the pet of higher society feasts

Domitia, wife of Postumus Calventius Velius
-From humble conditions before marrying Post. Calventius

Livia, widow of Marcus Clovius
-One of the members of the group that came to the fateful villa

Manius Florius Castus
-The uncle of Aulus Flavius Iovinus

Secundus Varius Maro
-One of the guests at the villa


Chapter 1 : Visit from a Friend in the Autumn Morning

This writing belongs to Diodotus, also known as Quintus Valerius
Diodotus after his manumissio from his most gracious master Quintus
Valerius Italicus. Let it be known that this writing is to be
published, but not before full five years has passed after the death
of Diodotus. The priests in the temple of Minerva on the Aventinus
hill shall take care that this condition is met.

Within these scrolls I, Diodotus, will tell about the mysteries
solved by my honoured master, Quintus Valerius Italicus. Such
wonderful stories should not let be untold even though there is no
close family to tell them further. That is why I feel that it is my
duty to tell them to those who are to become after us in this world.

My master was born into the noble clan of Valerius, even though he is
not from the most succesful family line. His family was from Arpinum
and locally famous for its successful makers of olive oil. The
tradition was that the older son will continue the manufacture of the
olive oil and the younger son will act as a trader. My master was the
younger son and so he grew up learning how to buy and sell and from
young age he was traveling all over the Italian peninsula. He was
literally born trader and when he reached his full legal age he was
already known as a fair and respectable young merchant. In his mature
years he learned to trade numerous products and was so widely known
that he got cognomen Italicus. He managed to get himself enough
wealth that he could settle himself to Rome in his old days and he
continued selling some luxury items for the most noble families in
the eternal city. As he no more was that active in the field of
merchandice he became to have a second career as an invaluable helper
of one young rising politician, Publius Laetonius Crispus, as an
advisor. Outsiders probably never knew how important he was for him.
In these stories I have told the absolute truth of the invaluable
services my master gave to his young friend.

What comes to me, your humble servant, I was born in the beautiful
lands of Greece and when I was still very young I was caught by the
Roman soldiers and sold as a slave. My master once picked me from the
group of slaves presented to him and gave me a job as an assistant of
his chief clerk. So I spent my adolescence in writing of endless
amount of business deals and letters for my master and when his old
chief clerk got his manumission I was raised onto his place as
natural successor. For years I took care of my masters most important
accounts and when my master retired to Rome he took me with him as
his private secretary. It was to according to my own wish that he
would keep me in his service as long as possible, as I felt I was
living a perfect life and liked my master very much.

It was some years after the most turbulent tribuneship of Titus
Sempronius Gracchus than I was taking a dictation for some private
letter from my master, in his study. It was a warm Autumn morning,
just after Sunrise. Yesterday it had been the highlight of the Ludi
Romani with the long-waited chariot race, where the Praesina (green)
team had won fabulously. My master said that he was too old for that
kind of things, but still he had allowed me to go and see the race.
He was just finishing his dictation when a servant came to us,
apologised for the interruption and told that there was a visitor
waiting for my master in the visitor's room. My master asked who it
was and the servant answered giving his name.

"By then all means, show him in here" my master said to the servant
who brought the visitor in to the study.

"Publius, son of Marcus" my master exclamated and continued at once:
"What on earth brings you here? I think I need not to remind you that
you could have invited me to your house to save you the trouble of
coming here!"

"Far be it from me that I would ask the honoured friend of my late
father to set burden on his old feet for my trivial interests, it is
the duty of young to walk and let the old ones enjoy their well
reserved days of rest!"

Publius Laetonius Crispus was the son of Marcus Laetonius as my
master indicated in his welcoming. Old Marcus had been a very close
friend to my master even being of more noble origin. They had met on
some of my masters trips, and even after the economical ties between
them had become lesser in importance, they were drawn into each
others company. Unofortunately Marcus Laetonius had had problems with
his health and all people who knew him said that he was taken into
the kingdom of death well before his time. Publius was the sole
inheritor of quite considerable wealth and was determined to use his
talents for the benefit of the state. My master was not so close to
him in the beginning, but during the years young Publius had needed
some financial advice and my master had proven to be loyal assistant
on those matters. This time, however, it was evident from the looks
of our early visitor that there were some more pressurising things at
hand. My master waved for me to leave him and Publius Laetonius
alone, and so I gathered my writing tablet and went to my room to
write the final version of the letter.

The visit lasted quite long, and when our visitor left, my master
asked me to join him to the garden. The morning sun had risen up
higher and it threw some nicely warming rays on the stone bench that
we sat on in the garden. My master gave me a quick summary of the
peculiar chain of events that Publius Laetonius had told him. Before
that he said:

"You probably don't know this, but I was quite close to the Marcus
Laetonius, Publius' father. You know that we had some mutual business
interests, but I was also his advisor for some special cases when he
could not trust anyone else. They were mainly political things and
there is no need for me to give any longer account about them as they
are history now and not of interest in today. It seems that Marcus
Laetonius has given his son an advice to turn to me if he should need
similar kind of help that his father did from time to time."

I nodded, not really understanding what my master had just said, but
his expression told me that I was maybe to find it out soon. Now
after many years I know what he meant and I'm sure that those who
read this writing will also be enlighted.

---- end of chapter 1 ----

--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13461 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: RECUERDOS DE NUESTRA ROMANIDAD
Salve Rutilius Caesar,

y nos quedamos tan anchos y asumimos que los que tienen la sartén por el mango tienen toda la razón del mundo.

A tí, estimado conciudadano, no te llama la atención mi mensaje, igual que a nadie.....

Con esta actitud estamos consiguiendo que la gente se olvide de que era Roma y dentro de poco los niños empezaran a estudiar la historia de España a partir del reinado de los Reyes Catolicos.

Y a lo que voy es a pedir que todos nosotros, ciudadanos de Nova Roma, nos concienciemos y veamos si podemos salvar algo de todo eso que están enterrando como superfluo.

Vale
Complutensis

José Luis Fernández del Valle <justinoclaudio@...> wrote:
Saludos Marcus Adrianus,

A mi, tu mensaje, no me ha llamado la atención lo más mínimo. Soy un híbrida de sangre astur, aunque por motivos de trabajo resido en la amurallada ciudad de Lugo. Por avatares del destino yo, un amante de la historia de Roma, he ido a establecerme en una ciudad con tan grandioso legado (termas, muralla, etc.) como la bimilenaria que me acoge. Sin embargo, no deja de sorprenderme y, en gran medida, entristecerme, el trato mediocre que el Ayuntamiento, la Diputación y la Xunta confieren a tan bellos recuerdos del pasado. Es de suponer que estamos en una provincia rica en historia, y que las autoridades deberían velar por destacar urbanísticamente un bien tan preciado y a la par tan poco común, pero sin embargo todo el mundo parece obviar la importancia de estos monumentos, e incluso de los importantísimos yacimientos que el subsuelo cercano a la muralla está actualmente desvelando.
En cuanto a éste último punto, tan sólo comentar que las excavaciones de la zona de la muralla sita frente a la Catedral, están sacando a relucir infinidad de restos romanos, tumbas, cimientos y objetos varios. Pero sin duda, el objeto que más me ha llamado la atención ha sido un ara de piedra de aproximadamente 1,3 metros de alto y perfectamente conservada. Parece ser que el ara se ofrendó en el Templo a Mitra que se sospecha estaba ubicado allí (¿quizás bajo la actual catedral?). Estaba dedicada por un centurión del siglo III A.D. al bienestar de dos de sus esclavos libertos y al de la propia guarnición en la que servía... Impresionante...

Dentro de la ciudad, murallas adentro, yo mismo fui testigo de como sacaban a la luz hace cosa de un año, un mosaico de importantes dimensiones también perfectamente conservado (cuando lo vi, me sorprendió el que estuviera igual que si acabaran de hacerlo). Calculo que debía de ser un cuadrado de unos 7 metros de lado, aunque no llegué a verlo entero. Lo encontraron cavando una calle para meter tuberías, aproximadamente a 1.5 metros de profundidad. Actualmente, han tapado la zona con una capa de cemento, no se si para conservarlo o para intentar enterrarlo de nuevo en el olvido.

Valete bene

Marcus Rutilius Caesar
Cives Romanus





Exegi monumentum aere perennius, regalique situ piramidum altius. Non omnis moriar...


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13462 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
LOL, good analogy.
Yes, that was one of the original premises of the posting and no, you
are not alone in your thinking.
A major downfall of the idea of favoring male children would be the
lack of available women for them years later. It would be a practice
almost as detrimental as a religion that required celibacy from its
adherants - they would quicly all die out without converts.

Your other point is also very important - is the the New or Old
Roma? There is another contraversial topic which could be raised to
associate the point of view regarding an old barbaric custom -
Slavery.
Slavery was common practice in ancient time but I know for a fact
that several citizens have stated their adamant opposition towards
this practice as well for our modern times.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Drennan" <dragonpink@s...>
wrote:
>
>
> > Quintus said in part "Again, the fetus is not human and has
no
> rights, ....."
> >
> > Yea biologically it's a toaster
> >
>
> Salve,
> If one were to view it this way, I would call the fetus the toast,
the
> uterus the toaster and the woman whose body all this is in to be the
> eletrical outlet.
> Now I recall this all started with aposting on female infanticide
and the
> second class status of women in old Roma? I have to ask this one
question:
> Are we citizens of old Roma or Nova Roma? does Nova Roma encourage
such
> attitudes? I am sure it does not, as I am female, and a citizen.
Yes it is
> sad that even today there are societies where abortions are
performed simply
> because the gender of the fetus is not the desired one, but most of
us do
> not live in those socities. For those that do, I'm sure they can
work on
> making changes from within. Of course, China was brought up, and
they have
> laws in place tha allow families only one child. It is a sad thing,
but from
> their stand point necessary. They could let people indiscriminately
have
> children, then they would have children dying in early childhood
from
> starvation, so the child would die one way or another. Abortion at
least
> does not force the mother to listen to her child screaming with
hunger. So
> it could be viewed as merciful in a that way.I'm not saying I agree
or
> disagree with it, it is something that is happening in the world.
I'm not
> sure what anyone outside of the Chinese government could change.
I've got
> enough on my plate trying to stay involved int he goings on in my
on small
> corner of the globe. That may sound selfish of me, but I'm sure i'm
not hte
> only one who feels that way.
> Claudia Fabia Calpurnia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13463 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Just an idea. What are your thoughts about having some type of oat
for new Citizens?
It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a Citizen of
Nova Roma entails.
When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at least
a test given to see that they understand the basics of their new
country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in English
though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an oath taken.
It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the Citizen
application and approval procedures.
Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@t...>
wrote:
>
> In latin, english and spanish versions.
>
>
> Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso
facto
> sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
> Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
> Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus publicae
> vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
> persequi.
> Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
> religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
> religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae religionis
> aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López)
IVRO
> quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
> Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
deabus
> et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae ACCIPIO
> una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum munus
> comportat.
>
> In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles
>
> --------------------------------
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), do hereby
> solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always
in
> the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro López), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in
my
> public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> private life.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
uphold
> and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
and
> swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
> State Religion.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
> protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) further swear
to
> fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE to the best of my abilities.
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
> Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
> do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE and all the
rights,
> privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
>
> In Hispania Provincia, 7-27-2003
>
> ------------------------
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), por la
presente
> juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar
siempre
> por los legítimos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.
>
> Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
(Alejandro
> Carneiro López), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis
> actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida
> pública y privada.
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro mantener
y
> defender la Religión Romana como Religión Estatal de Nova Roma, y
> nunca actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su condición de
> Religión del Estado.
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro proteger
y
> defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.
>
> Yo,Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro además
> cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de
> Propraetor de Hispania, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y
> habilidades.
>
> En mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma y en presencia de los dioses
y
> diosas del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el
puesto
> de Propraetor de Hispania y todos los derechos, privilegios,
> obligaciones y responsabilidades que mi puesto comporta.
>
>
> En la provincia Hispania, 27 Julio de 2003
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13464 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
That is a splendid idea, I suggested a similiar idea to the Senior Consul via his web-site a month ago but never recieved a response. My idea was a certificate stating full 'Macro' name and our newly acquired Roman name stating our citizenship/ Gens/ and the Consuls for the year...something along these lines...or in keeping with tradition, perhaps an iron ring of citizenship? Something that shows a symbol of belonging and solidarity. Just a thought, I mean does anyone agree? I for one would definately swear an oath.

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@...> wrote:Just an idea. What are your thoughts about having some type of oat
for new Citizens?
It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a Citizen of
Nova Roma entails.
When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at least
a test given to see that they understand the basics of their new
country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in English
though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an oath taken.
It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the Citizen
application and approval procedures.
Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@t...>
wrote:
>
> In latin, english and spanish versions.
>
>
> Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), hoc ipso
facto
> sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
> Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
> Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro L�pez), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus publicae
> vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
> persequi.
> Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), Romanam
> religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
> religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae religionis
> aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez)
IVRO
> quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
> Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
deabus
> et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae ACCIPIO
> una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum munus
> comportat.
>
> In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles
>
> --------------------------------
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), do hereby
> solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always
in
> the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro L�pez), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in
my
> public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> private life.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), swear to
uphold
> and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
and
> swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
> State Religion.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), swear to
> protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez) further swear
to
> fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE to the best of my abilities.
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
> Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
> do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE and all the
rights,
> privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
>
> In Hispania Provincia, 7-27-2003
>
> ------------------------
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), por la
presente
> juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar
siempre
> por los leg�timos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.
>
> Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
(Alejandro
> Carneiro L�pez), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis
> actividades p�blicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida
> p�blica y privada.
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), juro mantener
y
> defender la Religi�n Romana como Religi�n Estatal de Nova Roma, y
> nunca actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su condici�n de
> Religi�n del Estado.
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), juro proteger
y
> defender la Constituci�n de Nova Roma.
>
> Yo,Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro L�pez), juro adem�s
> cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de
> Propraetor de Hispania, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y
> habilidades.
>
> En mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma y en presencia de los dioses
y
> diosas del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el
puesto
> de Propraetor de Hispania y todos los derechos, privilegios,
> obligaciones y responsabilidades que mi puesto comporta.
>
>
> En la provincia Hispania, 27 Julio de 2003


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13465 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
LOL, I knew I couldn't be the only one who thought of this and posted
it.
There are many benefits to it and there would be 2 very positive
results - documentation and communication.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> That is a splendid idea, I suggested a similiar idea to the Senior
Consul via his web-site a month ago but never recieved a response. My
idea was a certificate stating full 'Macro' name and our newly
acquired Roman name stating our citizenship/ Gens/ and the Consuls
for the year...something along these lines...or in keeping with
tradition, perhaps an iron ring of citizenship? Something that shows
a symbol of belonging and solidarity. Just a thought, I mean does
anyone agree? I for one would definately swear an oath.
>
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> wrote:Just an idea.
What are your thoughts about having some type of oat
> for new Citizens?
> It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a Citizen
of
> Nova Roma entails.
> When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at
least
> a test given to see that they understand the basics of their new
> country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in English
> though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an oath taken.
> It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the Citizen
> application and approval procedures.
> Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alejandro Carneiro"
<piteas@t...>
> wrote:
> >
> > In latin, english and spanish versions.
> >
> >
> > Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso
> facto
> > sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
> > Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
> > Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> > Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus
publicae
> > vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
> > persequi.
> > Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
> > religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
> > religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae
religionis
> > aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> > Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López)
> IVRO
> > quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
> > Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
> deabus
> > et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae
ACCIPIO
> > una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum munus
> > comportat.
> >
> > In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles
> >
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), do hereby
> > solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act
always
> in
> > the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> > As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
(Alejandro
> > Carneiro López), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in
> my
> > public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> > private life.
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
> uphold
> > and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
> and
> > swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
> > State Religion.
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
> > protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) further
swear
> to
> > fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> > PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE to the best of my abilities.
> > On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of
the
> > Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and
favor,
> > do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE and all the
> rights,
> > privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
> >
> > In Hispania Provincia, 7-27-2003
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
> > Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), por la
> presente
> > juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar
> siempre
> > por los legítimos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.
> >
> > Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
> (Alejandro
> > Carneiro López), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis
> > actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida
> > pública y privada.
> >
> > Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro
mantener
> y
> > defender la Religión Romana como Religión Estatal de Nova Roma, y
> > nunca actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su condición
de
> > Religión del Estado.
> >
> > Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro
proteger
> y
> > defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.
> >
> > Yo,Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro además
> > cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de
> > Propraetor de Hispania, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y
> > habilidades.
> >
> > En mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma y en presencia de los
dioses
> y
> > diosas del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el
> puesto
> > de Propraetor de Hispania y todos los derechos, privilegios,
> > obligaciones y responsabilidades que mi puesto comporta.
> >
> >
> > En la provincia Hispania, 27 Julio de 2003
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13466 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@...> wrote:
SNIP
> Your other point is also very important - is the the
> New or Old
> Roma? There is another contraversial topic which
> could be raised to
> associate the point of view regarding an old
> barbaric custom -
> Slavery.
> Slavery was common practice in ancient time but I
> know for a fact
> that several citizens have stated their adamant
> opposition towards
> this practice as well for our modern times.
>
Ah the return of the strawman.

We allready have Slavery in Nova Roma. That bright
girl in the Sandels seems to be a slave of one of our
Senators, though she dosen't make it clear which one.

Oh that's just RPG?

That is the only kind that would ever be possible.
Real slavery requires the use of force to keep someone
in that condition. Nova Roma is a voulantary
organization where each citizen is here of thier own
free will. Anyone can leave at any time, anyone can
laugh at someone who attempts to force his will on
them. A law legalizing slavery would be as meaningless
as a law leagalizing flying pigs. A law banning
slavery would be pointless feelgoodism.

Slavery is allready Illegal in every Macronation that
we have citizens in and those laws take precedent over
any laws we pass. Even if we had our Forum and it was
recognized as an independant nation our laws wouldn't
extend one inch past it's borders and slavery would
still be illegal for the majority of citizens. If we
attempted to legalize it within the forum (all 118 +
Acres) we would likely be invaded by the neighboring
Macronation within a matter of days.

As for the ancients few things are as unfair as
judging them by a moral code they never heard of.
Thier code was did a man treat his slaves justly.
Attempting to apply modern notions about morality is
as absurd as declaring all Romans stupid because they
didn't know how to operate a Computer.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13467 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: roman detective story
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Saturnine.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Curius Saturninus
<c.curius@w...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Some of you might share my interest on reading detective stories in
> Summer holidays. I have heard numerous times some recommendations
> about Roman detective stories but I haven't got enough time this
> Summer to read any other than Sherlock Holmes canon through (thanks
> for the Gnaeus Salix Astur for his constant pressure to read
> them!).
> However on last Saturday I came to thought to write one of my own.
> And here is the result, it consists of 4 chapters and I will post
> them one per day now that I'm waiting for Bologna meeting next
> weekend. I know there are numerous historical flaws which I perhaps
> will someday correct along with grammatical errors resulted from
> the fact that English is not native language. But maybe for some of
> you this small story will bring about relaxation.

Congratulations on your new detective story! I think that it is
pretty good :-).

I would like to make a couple of comments, if you don't mind.

I liked very much the usage you have done of the "old manuscript"
idea. Just like in "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco :-). Perhaps
you should add some of the story Diodotus's manuscript until it
reached your hands. And perhaps Diodotus should have a good reason to
commit his memories to writing. Dr. Watson sold his memories to The
Strand, while Adso of Melk was just reliefing his "sinful" conscience
before dying.

As for the idea of having a slave as the detective's Boswell, I think
that it is a quite original idea. It also suits the Roman environment
quite well. Slaves could get everywhere and see everything :-).

I can see Ms. Hercules Poirot through your Q. Valerius Italicus (an
ageing, semi-retired detective) :-). Perhaps you should give some
reason to be a detective: Poirot was an ex-policeman, and Holmes was
the first member of his trade -consultive detective-. Why is an old
trader gifted with exceptional observational and deductive
capabilities? Was he a scout in the army? Was he a brilliant lawyer?
Did he have a Greek mentor who instructed him into Aristotelian logic
and cause-effect deductions?

Another good idea could be to give Q. Valerius Italicus a family,
like M. Didius Falco's. A Roman household was full of people, and a
traditional Roman family can be an excellent "comic relief" (think
about an imperative Italic mother; or about a teenage daughter who
always gets into trouble; or about a son in the army).

Good luck with your novel, amice! :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13468 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
I'm not familiar with the Strawman reference to slavery. Is it like
the bad penny annalogy that the subject keeps popping up?

LOL, I caught our sandles girls last posting, she's a pip to be sure.

RPG - report program generator - tell me that doesn't take you back a
few years.

LOL, legalized slavery and flying pigs - cute.
Slavery has a bad reputation. Not all slaves were treated horribly;
there are many stories of slaves that appear like hired hands who
were treated like family members and came to affluent positions in
society. Unfortunately there are the true horror stories as well.
No, I would not be in favor of slavery because they have no rights.
Regarding the absurdity of judging morality by modern standards; I
heard you the second time though I think there were those who had it
better in olden times then they did in more recent days and would
judge slavery more barbaric in recent times showing the moral conduct
degenerated over the years but that can't be proven either way; moot
point.


> >
> Ah the return of the strawman.
>
> We allready have Slavery in Nova Roma. That bright
> girl in the Sandels seems to be a slave of one of our
> Senators, though she dosen't make it clear which one.
>
> Oh that's just RPG?
>
> That is the only kind that would ever be possible.
> Real slavery requires the use of force to keep someone
> in that condition. Nova Roma is a voulantary
> organization where each citizen is here of thier own
> free will. Anyone can leave at any time, anyone can
> laugh at someone who attempts to force his will on
> them. A law legalizing slavery would be as meaningless
> as a law leagalizing flying pigs. A law banning
> slavery would be pointless feelgoodism.
>
> Slavery is allready Illegal in every Macronation that
> we have citizens in and those laws take precedent over
> any laws we pass. Even if we had our Forum and it was
> recognized as an independant nation our laws wouldn't
> extend one inch past it's borders and slavery would
> still be illegal for the majority of citizens. If we
> attempted to legalize it within the forum (all 118 +
> Acres) we would likely be invaded by the neighboring
> Macronation within a matter of days.
>
> As for the ancients few things are as unfair as
> judging them by a moral code they never heard of.
> Thier code was did a man treat his slaves justly.
> Attempting to apply modern notions about morality is
> as absurd as declaring all Romans stupid because they
> didn't know how to operate a Computer.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13469 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marce Ambrosi Belisari.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Just an idea. What are your thoughts about having some type of oat
> for new Citizens?
> It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a Citizen
> of Nova Roma entails.
> When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at
> least a test given to see that they understand the basics of their
> new country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in
> English though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an
> oath taken.
> It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the Citizen
> application and approval procedures.
> Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.

I think that your idea has some merit.

Of course, such an "oath of citizenship" should be the final step of
an instruction process, just like you have to learn a few things
about the U.S. before acquiring that nationality.

We would need to create a whole new instruction process, of course.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13470 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
From Websters
Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
Date: 1896
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or
adversary) set up only to be easily confuted

So far no one has proposed legalizing slavery, though
some keep bringing up this imaginary threat.

--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@...> wrote:
> I'm not familiar with the Strawman reference to
> slavery. Is it like
> the bad penny annalogy that the subject keeps
> popping up?
>
> LOL, I caught our sandles girls last posting, she's
> a pip to be sure.
>
> RPG - report program generator - tell me that
> doesn't take you back a
> few years.
>
> LOL, legalized slavery and flying pigs - cute.
> Slavery has a bad reputation. Not all slaves were
> treated horribly;
> there are many stories of slaves that appear like
> hired hands who
> were treated like family members and came to
> affluent positions in
> society. Unfortunately there are the true horror
> stories as well.
> No, I would not be in favor of slavery because they
> have no rights.
> Regarding the absurdity of judging morality by
> modern standards; I
> heard you the second time though I think there were
> those who had it
> better in olden times then they did in more recent
> days and would
> judge slavery more barbaric in recent times showing
> the moral conduct
> degenerated over the years but that can't be proven
> either way; moot
> point.
>
>
> > >
> > Ah the return of the strawman.
> >
> > We allready have Slavery in Nova Roma. That bright
> > girl in the Sandels seems to be a slave of one of
> our
> > Senators, though she dosen't make it clear which
> one.
> >
> > Oh that's just RPG?
> >
> > That is the only kind that would ever be possible.
> > Real slavery requires the use of force to keep
> someone
> > in that condition. Nova Roma is a voulantary
> > organization where each citizen is here of thier
> own
> > free will. Anyone can leave at any time, anyone
> can
> > laugh at someone who attempts to force his will on
> > them. A law legalizing slavery would be as
> meaningless
> > as a law leagalizing flying pigs. A law banning
> > slavery would be pointless feelgoodism.
> >
> > Slavery is allready Illegal in every Macronation
> that
> > we have citizens in and those laws take precedent
> over
> > any laws we pass. Even if we had our Forum and it
> was
> > recognized as an independant nation our laws
> wouldn't
> > extend one inch past it's borders and slavery
> would
> > still be illegal for the majority of citizens. If
> we
> > attempted to legalize it within the forum (all 118
> +
> > Acres) we would likely be invaded by the
> neighboring
> > Macronation within a matter of days.
> >
> > As for the ancients few things are as unfair as
> > judging them by a moral code they never heard of.
> > Thier code was did a man treat his slaves justly.
> > Attempting to apply modern notions about morality
> is
> > as absurd as declaring all Romans stupid because
> they
> > didn't know how to operate a Computer.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13471 From: Robert Woolwine Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Poll Alert
Avete Omnes,

Since our new Greek girl has spilled the beans that she is employed
by a Senator, we at the Back Alley have completed a Poll to see just
how actually owns her. Please feel free to participate.

You can find the Back alley by emailing myself
(alexious@...) or by sending an email to: BackAlley-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The poll will close in 2 weeks.

Enjoy,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13472 From: John Walzer Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Salvete Omnes:

Very provocative. This merits discussion. I raise two questions:

(1) M. Ambrosius Belisarius cites people repatriating from country to country. Does he propose a one-on-one correspondence between actual people moving between countries and Nova Romans moving from province to province?

(2) As to an oath: how would such an oath be enforced, given that Nova Roma is a virtual entity?

I realize these suggestions are made to provoke discussion in the Nova Roma community; meaningful debate is the lifeblood of our community, and I would welcome further input on these topics from citizens.

Valete

L. Suetonius Nerva
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship - was: Oath of office


Just an idea. What are your thoughts about having some type of oat
for new Citizens?
It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a Citizen of
Nova Roma entails.
When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at least
a test given to see that they understand the basics of their new
country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in English
though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an oath taken.
It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the Citizen
application and approval procedures.
Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@t...>
wrote:
>
> In latin, english and spanish versions.
>
>
> Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso
facto
> sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
> Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
> Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus publicae
> vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
> persequi.
> Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
> religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
> religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae religionis
> aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López)
IVRO
> quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
> Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
deabus
> et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae ACCIPIO
> una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum munus
> comportat.
>
> In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles
>
> --------------------------------
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), do hereby
> solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always
in
> the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro López), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in
my
> public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> private life.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
uphold
> and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
and
> swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
> State Religion.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
> protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) further swear
to
> fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE to the best of my abilities.
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
> Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
> do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE and all the
rights,
> privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
>
> In Hispania Provincia, 7-27-2003
>
> ------------------------
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), por la
presente
> juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar
siempre
> por los legítimos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.
>
> Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
(Alejandro
> Carneiro López), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis
> actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida
> pública y privada.
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro mantener
y
> defender la Religión Romana como Religión Estatal de Nova Roma, y
> nunca actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su condición de
> Religión del Estado.
>
> Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro proteger
y
> defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.
>
> Yo,Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro además
> cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de
> Propraetor de Hispania, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y
> habilidades.
>
> En mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma y en presencia de los dioses
y
> diosas del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el
puesto
> de Propraetor de Hispania y todos los derechos, privilegios,
> obligaciones y responsabilidades que mi puesto comporta.
>
>
> En la provincia Hispania, 27 Julio de 2003


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13473 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: To Girlinbritesandals
Salve,

I see that you have again posted as a greek girl living in a
senators house. Perhaps you didn't get your offline email regarding
this so I'll post this and hope that you see it.

This is not a role playing game. We have taken on names but we do
not pretend to be the historical people who may, or may not, have
shared our names. We do not pretend to be what we aren't. I am a 36
year old scientist in Hawaii. Others are network administrators, home-
makers, working in law and the list goes on. I noted that you spelled
your profession wrong in your yahoo profile so I'm concerned you may
have the wrong idea and have created a "character" that you wish to
play. All of us share an abiding love of Roma as it was. Many of us
follow the religio and try like the dickens to espouse the virtues we
so admire.

If you see a post from someone in Roma or Hibernia or Gallia, it
is because that is where they really live. It can be confusing
perhaps, but this is an international organization.

By all means, be a part of Nova Roma, but do it as it is meant to
be done. Study the religio, the arts, philosophy or politics. If you
are a minor, you'll need to get your parents permission to join.
Please, don't be run off by me, I'm just trying to point you in the
right direction with respect to our organization, which is a non-
profit one dedicated to bringing Roma back.

Vale,

Annia Octavia Indagatrix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13474 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Salve,

I'm not sure about that idea. For one, since NR is a micronation,
dedicated to becoming that in a physical world, it is already a bit
of a fine line for those of us in the military or civilians who hold
clearances for our jobs. However, since we remain casual and very
virtual it is a line we can walk. Should there be oaths and such
involved, that might make it difficult for some of us since that
requires disclosure and would, for me at least, put my clearance in
jeopardy. I can't even donate to PETA or be a member of greenpeace,
just imagine if I took an oath as a citizen of another, however
small, country. Just my 2 cents.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> That is a splendid idea, I suggested a similiar idea to the Senior
Consul via his web-site a month ago but never recieved a response. My
idea was a certificate stating full 'Macro' name and our newly
acquired Roman name stating our citizenship/ Gens/ and the Consuls
for the year...something along these lines...or in keeping with
tradition, perhaps an iron ring of citizenship? Something that shows
a symbol of belonging and solidarity. Just a thought, I mean does
anyone agree? I for one would definately swear an oath.
>
<SNIP>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13475 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Yes, I agree but I feel it would be worthwile.
The applicant is aware of what Nova Roma is and is about and what
their role would be in this society; Citizen responsibility etc. sort
of a Nova Roma Mission statement.
The Oath, after citizenship has been granted, would fairly reiterate
their role in this society as a citizen.
It would weed out the role players and those not truly serious that
apply for citizenship as well as address some concerns I have
recently read regarding granting arbitrary membership.
I didn't mean to create more work for anyone to be difficcult as I'm
sure this will be a task and not an overnight "whip it up" but it was
a thought that could serve a larger purpose and solve more problems
than the work time to create it would.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Salix Astur"
<salixastur@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marce Ambrosi Belisari.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > Just an idea. What are your thoughts about having some type of
oat
> > for new Citizens?
> > It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a
Citizen
> > of Nova Roma entails.
> > When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at
> > least a test given to see that they understand the basics of
their
> > new country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in
> > English though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an
> > oath taken.
> > It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the
Citizen
> > application and approval procedures.
> > Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.
>
> I think that your idea has some merit.
>
> Of course, such an "oath of citizenship" should be the final step
of
> an instruction process, just like you have to learn a few things
> about the U.S. before acquiring that nationality.
>
> We would need to create a whole new instruction process, of course.
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13476 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: The Roman Practice of Infanticide - Women in Power
OK, like the bad penny annalogy, thanks for the definition, I like
the term.
Yes, slavery is outdated and shouldn't be a matter of proposition. I
used it as a correlation; didn't mean to imply it should be
considered, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> From Websters
> Main Entry: straw man
> Function: noun
> Date: 1896
> 1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or
> adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
>
> So far no one has proposed legalizing slavery, though
> some keep bringing up this imaginary threat.
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > I'm not familiar with the Strawman reference to
> > slavery. Is it like
> > the bad penny annalogy that the subject keeps
> > popping up?
> >
> > LOL, I caught our sandles girls last posting, she's
> > a pip to be sure.
> >
> > RPG - report program generator - tell me that
> > doesn't take you back a
> > few years.
> >
> > LOL, legalized slavery and flying pigs - cute.
> > Slavery has a bad reputation. Not all slaves were
> > treated horribly;
> > there are many stories of slaves that appear like
> > hired hands who
> > were treated like family members and came to
> > affluent positions in
> > society. Unfortunately there are the true horror
> > stories as well.
> > No, I would not be in favor of slavery because they
> > have no rights.
> > Regarding the absurdity of judging morality by
> > modern standards; I
> > heard you the second time though I think there were
> > those who had it
> > better in olden times then they did in more recent
> > days and would
> > judge slavery more barbaric in recent times showing
> > the moral conduct
> > degenerated over the years but that can't be proven
> > either way; moot
> > point.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > Ah the return of the strawman.
> > >
> > > We allready have Slavery in Nova Roma. That bright
> > > girl in the Sandels seems to be a slave of one of
> > our
> > > Senators, though she dosen't make it clear which
> > one.
> > >
> > > Oh that's just RPG?
> > >
> > > That is the only kind that would ever be possible.
> > > Real slavery requires the use of force to keep
> > someone
> > > in that condition. Nova Roma is a voulantary
> > > organization where each citizen is here of thier
> > own
> > > free will. Anyone can leave at any time, anyone
> > can
> > > laugh at someone who attempts to force his will on
> > > them. A law legalizing slavery would be as
> > meaningless
> > > as a law leagalizing flying pigs. A law banning
> > > slavery would be pointless feelgoodism.
> > >
> > > Slavery is allready Illegal in every Macronation
> > that
> > > we have citizens in and those laws take precedent
> > over
> > > any laws we pass. Even if we had our Forum and it
> > was
> > > recognized as an independant nation our laws
> > wouldn't
> > > extend one inch past it's borders and slavery
> > would
> > > still be illegal for the majority of citizens. If
> > we
> > > attempted to legalize it within the forum (all 118
> > +
> > > Acres) we would likely be invaded by the
> > neighboring
> > > Macronation within a matter of days.
> > >
> > > As for the ancients few things are as unfair as
> > > judging them by a moral code they never heard of.
> > > Thier code was did a man treat his slaves justly.
> > > Attempting to apply modern notions about morality
> > is
> > > as absurd as declaring all Romans stupid because
> > they
> > > didn't know how to operate a Computer.
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > > Roman Citizen
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> > design software
> > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13477 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Poll Alert
Grand, this could be fun.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Since our new Greek girl has spilled the beans that she is employed
> by a Senator, we at the Back Alley have completed a Poll to see
just
> how actually owns her. Please feel free to participate.
>
> You can find the Back alley by emailing myself
> (alexious@e...) or by sending an email to: BackAlley-
> subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> The poll will close in 2 weeks.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13478 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Salve,
It was meant as an example of say a Canadian moving to the U.S. and
applying for citizenship but I didn't think of the possible use for
Province/Gens. changes which has come up in discussion before.
Interesting application of the application, lol.

It would be as effective (I assume) as the Oath of office taken just
maybe less specialized.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Walzer" <jwalzer5@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> Very provocative. This merits discussion. I raise two questions:
>
> (1) M. Ambrosius Belisarius cites people repatriating from
country to country. Does he propose a one-on-one correspondence
between actual people moving between countries and Nova Romans moving
from province to province?
>
> (2) As to an oath: how would such an oath be enforced, given
that Nova Roma is a virtual entity?
>
> I realize these suggestions are made to provoke discussion in the
Nova Roma community; meaningful debate is the lifeblood of our
community, and I would welcome further input on these topics from
citizens.
>
> Valete
>
> L. Suetonius Nerva
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:57 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship - was: Oath of office
>
>
> Just an idea. What are your thoughts about having some type of
oat
> for new Citizens?
> It might give them a better idea of what to expect being a
Citizen of
> Nova Roma entails.
> When people repatriate (?) one country to another, there is at
least
> a test given to see that they understand the basics of their new
> country (Here in America, I don't believe it has to be in English
> though, lol). Once citizenship is granted, there is an oath
taken.
> It may be a good idea to incorporate these ideas in to the
Citizen
> application and approval procedures.
> Agasin, just a thought to be proactive.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alejandro Carneiro"
<piteas@t...>
> wrote:
> >
> > In latin, english and spanish versions.
> >
> >
> > Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso
> facto
> > sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro
Novae
> > Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
> > Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
(Alejandro
> > Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus
publicae
> > vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata
vita
> > persequi.
> > Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
> > religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
> > religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae
religionis
> > aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> > Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López)
> IVRO
> > quam optime fungi officium muneris Propraetoris Hispaniae.
> > Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
> deabus
> > et eorum voluntate et favore, munus Propraetoris Hispaniae
ACCIPIO
> > una cum iuribus, privilegiis munera atque officia quae meum
munus
> > comportat.
> >
> > In Hispania Provincia, ante diem VI kalendas Sextiles
> >
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), do hereby
> > solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act
always
> in
> > the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> > As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
(Alejandro
> > Carneiro López), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome
in
> my
> > public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public
and
> > private life.
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
> uphold
> > and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova
Roma
> and
> > swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as
the
> > State Religion.
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
> > protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) further
swear
> to
> > fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> > PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE to the best of my abilities.
> > On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of
the
> > Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and
favor,
> > do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE and all the
> rights,
> > privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.
> >
> > In Hispania Provincia, 7-27-2003
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
> > Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), por la
> presente
> > juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar
> siempre
> > por los legítimos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.
> >
> > Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
> (Alejandro
> > Carneiro López), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en
mis
> > actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi
vida
> > pública y privada.
> >
> > Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro
mantener
> y
> > defender la Religión Romana como Religión Estatal de Nova Roma,
y
> > nunca actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su
condición de
> > Religión del Estado.
> >
> > Yo, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro
proteger
> y
> > defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.
> >
> > Yo,Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), juro
además
> > cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de
> > Propraetor de Hispania, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y
> > habilidades.
> >
> > En mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma y en presencia de los
dioses
> y
> > diosas del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el
> puesto
> > de Propraetor de Hispania y todos los derechos, privilegios,
> > obligaciones y responsabilidades que mi puesto comporta.
> >
> >
> > En la provincia Hispania, 27 Julio de 2003
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13479 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
I understand the difficulties this can cause.
In that light, I am curious (please indulge me for I am uncertain as
to sime finer points here) what the specific goals are for Nova Roma.
I assume that we are trying to gain sovreignty but what does that
entail?
For argument sake, lets say we get our acreage in the U.S. - Idon't
think it feasable that everyone will move to this piece of land so
many will still live abroad - how will this affect being a true Nova
Roma Citizen?
Those living in the Nova ROma province (wherever it may be) will not
have a problem with oaths while living and working Nova ROma but it
will affect the rest.
Would people be expected to devote themselves to Nova Roma in reality
or again is it more like role playing and at the same time doing
things for the puplic to generate awareness of the Roma Ideals?

You mentioned the military, useing this as an example - would Nova
Roma have it's own military and would those citizens be expected to
be part of it? Will it be acceptable to be a Nova Roma citizen and
be a member of a foreign military? Does that interfere with
obligations as a citizen of NR?

This is non judgemental just curious at what is it NR is trying to
accomplish? Is it always to be a Virtual world in which we meet/play
though we do accomplish real world (not role playing world) benefits
to bring back the Roman virtues?

Thanks for your time.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<bryanta003@h...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I'm not sure about that idea. For one, since NR is a
micronation,
> dedicated to becoming that in a physical world, it is already a bit
> of a fine line for those of us in the military or civilians who
hold
> clearances for our jobs. However, since we remain casual and very
> virtual it is a line we can walk. Should there be oaths and such
> involved, that might make it difficult for some of us since that
> requires disclosure and would, for me at least, put my clearance in
> jeopardy. I can't even donate to PETA or be a member of greenpeace,
> just imagine if I took an oath as a citizen of another, however
> small, country. Just my 2 cents.
>
> Vale,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
> <praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> > That is a splendid idea, I suggested a similiar idea to the
Senior
> Consul via his web-site a month ago but never recieved a response.
My
> idea was a certificate stating full 'Macro' name and our newly
> acquired Roman name stating our citizenship/ Gens/ and the Consuls
> for the year...something along these lines...or in keeping with
> tradition, perhaps an iron ring of citizenship? Something that
shows
> a symbol of belonging and solidarity. Just a thought, I mean does
> anyone agree? I for one would definately swear an oath.
> >
> <SNIP>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13480 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Salvete Omnes,

the idea is not bad... but it's not good in teh same way!
Where the new or moving citizen must to post the oath? To who?
The majority of the nova romans aren't here in this list or in a
public international list. The majority is not in just one list.
Do you imagine to receive in your e-mail box 400-500 oaths per year?
Or do you imagine the Consul receiving 500 oaths? Funny ;-)
And you have to think that not all the nova romans think NR like a
micronation. A lot of people think NR is only a cultural
organization. Why they have to oath in a micronation not-recognized?
And an oath of citizenship must to have a religious connotation: why
a man of another religion (or atheist) loving Ancient Rome must
accept the Religio? It's a serious problem.

I repeat, in my opinion it's an interesting idea but I think there
are too problems.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13481 From: Jim Lancaster Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Salve Caesariensi:

>Somewhat off-topic does anyone who has had the misfortune to pick
gooseberries suspect that 'found under a goosegog bush' might at one time
have been literally true? For those unfamiliar, they have thorns nearly an
inch long and branches grow down, inward, and any ways they like instead of
out and up like most bushes.

I planted a fuschia-flowering gooseberry in my front yard. I planted it
because it terrifies me.

Vale,

Cn. Iulius Strabo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13482 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-28
Subject: Re: Digest Number 748
Salve amice,

>Congratulations on your new detective story! I think that it is
>pretty good :-).

I'm glad that you liked it this far.


>I would like to make a couple of comments, if you don't mind.

No, of course not. It's nice to hear some feedback.


>I liked very much the usage you have done of the "old manuscript"
>idea. Just like in "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco :-). Perhaps
>you should add some of the story Diodotus's manuscript until it
>reached your hands. And perhaps Diodotus should have a good reason to
>commit his memories to writing. Dr. Watson sold his memories to The
>Strand, while Adso of Melk was just reliefing his "sinful" conscience
>before dying.

Yes I thought about that for the more final version of collection of
maybe 5-10 short stories. And Diodotus does have a good reason for
publishing as the yet unpublished stories will tell ;-)


>As for the idea of having a slave as the detective's Boswell, I think
>that it is a quite original idea. It also suits the Roman environment
>quite well. Slaves could get everywhere and see everything :-).

And their masters feared them for that same reason, I thought that it
would make nice "tension" in the interpersonal level.


>I can see Ms. Hercules Poirot through your Q. Valerius Italicus (an
>ageing, semi-retired detective) :-). Perhaps you should give some
>reason to be a detective: Poirot was an ex-policeman, and Holmes was
>the first member of his trade -consultive detective-. Why is an old
>trader gifted with exceptional observational and deductive
>capabilities? Was he a scout in the army? Was he a brilliant lawyer?
>Did he have a Greek mentor who instructed him into Aristotelian logic
>and cause-effect deductions?

Those are good questions, I was playing with the idea of philosophy
being the center of his methods, but I didn't like that so much (in
fact in chapter 3 you will notice some traces of this). It would be
more suitable for a detective in Greek world, for example in Miletos
in the pre-Socratean period (see for example stories linked to
Thales). I also thought about the possibility of making him a
brilliant lawyer, but I felt that would have been a little too
straightforward, and besides, if he was so brilliant and exceptional,
why there is no survived evidence on him for history books? So he had
to be more stealthy figure.

As you noticed Diodotus had been in his household for many years and
did not know about the "hobby" of his master. I think Italicus wants
to keep his special talents reserved only for occasional cases and
above all does not want publicity (as even after his death Diodotus
does not want to publish the stories while being alive himself).


>Another good idea could be to give Q. Valerius Italicus a family,
>like M. Didius Falco's. A Roman household was full of people, and a
>traditional Roman family can be an excellent "comic relief" (think
>about an imperative Italic mother; or about a teenage daughter who
>always gets into trouble; or about a son in the army).

There I have to give you a disappointment, Italicus is living quite
lonely life as his children has already moved away from the house and
he does not need that many servants. I don't know why Diodotus has
not mentioned yet anything about his masters wife, though.


>Good luck with your novel, amice! :-).

Thank you!

Vale,
--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13483 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: roman detective story, chapter 2
Salvete,

Here is the chapter 2:

----

Chapter 2 : Tragedies

"My young friend has had the most unique experience of his life
yesterday" my master started his narrative. "He was attending the
traditional masquerade dinner of Ludi Romani in the house of Oppius
Fabius Rusticus, also an old family friend of his. It seems that
Oppius Fabius had invited quite a large crowd there and there was
also quite a colourful group of guests present."

"Yes, I have heard that his social circles are quite extensive" I said.

"Yes indeed, some might say he is quite liberal in his selection of
acquaintances" my master said and I sensed that he was not very
pleased. "Amongst this group of guests there was one particular small
group that is under our attention right now" he continued. "This
group came to the dinner together and stayed together until the end
of it. Then during the spectacle it dispersed and the tragedy took
place." he was very serious when he said the last words.

Then my master briefly summarised the members of the small group of
guests that had come together to the house of Oppius Fabius. I will
present it here in a list to you, my honoured readers:
-Aulus Flavius Iovinus was a well to do gentleman who had made quite
succesful career and reached the office of Praetor Urbanus. He was
well liked and honest man with little enemies as he was not active
anymore in the politics. As my master expressed it: "In these times
honest men are not in power anymore".
-Claudia was his niece, a typical member of the younger generation,
but altogether a young woman of a good reputation.
-Postumus Calventius Velius was an very famous actor at the moment,
he had been performing in a new comedy which was said to please
everyone, even the consul Calpurnius. I felt my master was more than
unfair with his comment that a honest man would not be an actor.
-Domitia was his wife and she was also from quite humble beginnings,
but the couple had now afforded to buy a fancy house on the Aventinus
hill.
-Livia was the widow of Marcus Clovius, who had died in some battle
in Macedonia. Livia was rumoured to be remarried soon as the proper
time had passed since his husbands death, this again brought about a
harder tone into my masters voice.
-There was also present Manius Florius Castus, uncle of Aulus
Flavius, rich man without political ambitions, or at least so he
himself had proclaimed publicly. Rumours claimed though that he was a
financier of some more ambitious men who had found money somewhere
for suspiciously expensive campaigns for an office.

After having seen that I was very curious about what exactly had
happened, my master told me about the dreadful events:

"Aulus Flavius has been found last night from one of the rooms of the
house of Oppius Fabius, he was stabbed to death during the spectacle
that was arranged to honour Jupiter. It is only a question that who
is behind of this a very inauspicious deed." normal smile had
disappeared from my masters face as he continued: "The room from
which he was found was not used during the latter part of the
festivities. He had arrived some hours before that with his entourage
and had a dinner in same company I just described you in that room.
Then the spectacle was about to start on a contemporary stage that
was built into the garden, and the group had parted to different
directions. The spectacle had consisted of various little plays and
songs and dance and people had wandered around in the garden during
it. At some point a distant friend of Aulus Flavius, certain Secundus
Varius Maro had noticed him standing in the shade of the colonnade
and asked him to join him to see the next acrobat who was about
perform his famous rope-walking next. Aulus Flavius had said that he
would be shortly with Secundus Varius Maro, asked him to wait and had
went into the house. Secundus Varius Maro waited for some time,
became impatient and in this point he met Livia whose husband had
been his friend and asked from Livia if she had any idea where Aulus
Flavius might be as the acrobat would shortly be performing. Livia
didn't know where he might be, but volunteered to come with Secundus
Varius Maro to search for Aulus Flavius. They looked for some time,
but as the house was so large they did not find him. Then Livia
proposed that they would look from the dining room and that's where
they found the body. Lady Livia said that Aulus Flavius had been on
such a bad mood the whole evening that she wanted to speak with him
and find out what was wrong."

"Isn't there anything that would tell us about the killer?" I asked
shocked about the incident.

"Yes there is", my master said, "there was a small medallion which
had been attached to some kind of a rope or a chain, probably worn
around the neck. And what a peculiar medallion it seemed to be, there
were some mystical ornaments and picture of Sun with rays." my
masters voice sounded puzzled.

"That sounds to me like something of a religious amulet" I said.

"Yes, that is what I tought also" my master confirmed.

"My young friend Publius had done some inquiries during the night as
he was amongst those people who stayed with Oppius Fabius through the
night even though the festivities were abruptly cancelled. He, by the
way, came straight from there this morning. He was able to gather
couple of interesting bits of information, altough I have to say that
he hasn't got the talent of his father for understanding things
hidden from a human eye." here my master sunk into his toughts,
probably thinking about Marcus Laetonius, he noticed my waiting
expression of face and continued by telling the facts Publius
Laetonius had gathered.

"It seems that Aulus Flavius and Claudia had had some argument. They
normally were close, but last night they didn't seem to be in
speaking terms with each other. Also it seems that Postumus
Calventius had tried to settle their argument with a poor success and
that Claudia had loudly asked Postumus to take her home. When Claudia
walked away she was heard to swear that she will show Aulus Flavius
who is right. Postumus had agreed with his wife that he will take
Claudia to her house and continue on to home and asked her to leave
early also. This is all we know at the moment, my Diodotus."

The Sun had risen high and was warming the Autumn morning. From the
nearby streets there had for some time come ever loudening sounds of
a busy city in the preparations of an another day of festivities. My
master had gone for his morning exercise and I was still sitting in
the garden thinking about the chain of events when a servant ran into
the garden and disturbed my thoughts.

I looked angrily to him and asked: "Why on earth do you run like that
when I'm trying to concentrate to think about very serious matters?"

The young boy was exited and said that I had to go quickly to my
masters room, there had been a visitor, who had been in great hurry
leaving a message from Publius Laetonius. Before the servant boy had
finished his saying, I was up and running to my masters study.

"Well, Diodotus, you certainly seem to be exited about these events"
said my master with faint smile.

I was too embarassed to say anything, but then he continued: "That is
of course natural and shows that you have a certain instinct. You
might even be useful to me when I will solve this mystery."

I probably looked quite astonished as he said: "Yes Diodotus, this is
kind of mystery I and good old Marcus Laetonius were brought about
during the long years of our friendship." "But now, let's get into
the matter at hand, I have just recieved a message from Publius
Laetonius, who has heard that also Claudia has been found dead this
morning from her house. It seems that she has been bitten by snake."

---- end of chapter 2 ----
--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13484 From: Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
"My idea was a certificate stating full 'Macro' name and our newly acquired Roman name stating our citizenship/ Gens/ and the Consuls for the year...something along these lines...or in keeping with tradition, perhaps an iron ring of citizenship? Something that shows a symbol of belonging and solidarity. Just a thought, I mean does anyone agree? I for one would definately swear an oath."

Salvete,

I like the idea of a certificate, even if it is not historically accurate.

Is a ring really in keeping with tradition? I've never read of any 'ring of citizenship' in ancient Rome, but I've been remiss in my research before :)

I don't care for the idea of an oath of citizenship. In the face of macronational necessity, any such oath would perforce be so watered down as to be meaningless as regards citizenship.

Valete,

L C Sardonicus


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13485 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Greek and Roman Grammarians
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to a paper on "Greek and Roman Grammarians on Motion
Verbs and Place Adverbials" by Malcolm Hyman (Archimedes Project,
Harvard Univ.), presented at the Jan. 2003 meeting of the North
American Association for the History of the Language Sciences:

http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/mdh/motion.pdf

Despite the apparent "dryness" of the topic, Hyman provides some very
interesting insights into the way Romans mentally constructed their
world as disclosed by the ways they used features of their language.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13486 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: The Trimalchio Font
Kristoffer From wrote:
> I've e-mailed the owner, but I'm really
> not expecting any answers.

Salvete, quirites.

Well, I guess I was dead wrong on this one. I've received an answer from
the creator of the font, and at his request I've deleted all copies of
the ttf-version and I ask the rest of you to do the same.

His reason for not wanting a PC-version of his font spread is that he
considers an already existing PC-font to be superior to his own. It's
available for download here:

http://www.historian.net/files.htm

Just scroll down to "Roman Rustica" and click on the image to download a
.zip-file containing the font. There are some other fonts there as well,
with previews of them available.

Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13487 From: Patricia Cassia Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Wow -- they found ancient Roman face cream! I don't think the
"sulphurous and cheesy" scent would go over well with today's buyers...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030728/sc_nm/
britain_roman_dc_1


-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13488 From: saucydemon2000 Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
> Is a ring really in keeping with tradition? I've never read of
any 'ring of citizenship' in ancient Rome, but I've been remiss in my
research before :)

I believe that the iron ring was warn by senators during the early
Republic. The iron was, or course, supplanted by more precious
materials by the late Republic.

L. Licinius Murena
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13489 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
> Salvete,
>
> I like the idea of a certificate, even if it is not historically
accurate.
>
> Is a ring really in keeping with tradition? I've never read of
any 'ring of citizenship' in ancient Rome, but I've been remiss in my
research before :)
>
> I don't care for the idea of an oath of citizenship. In the face
of macronational necessity, any such oath would perforce be so
watered down as to be meaningless as regards citizenship.
>
> Valete,
>
> L C Sardonicus

Salvete L C Sardonice et omnes,

I sure like your idea of a citizenship ring or ring for a particular
office. I'll surf the net later and try to find out. That would be a
good selling article for our merchant class.

I think Anna Octavia raises a good point with regards to many of our
military citizens having to take an oath. We all know that NR in its
mandate does not pose a threat to any macro nation but at the same
time there are those in the governments and military that would
casually take fleeting glances over the NR and pan it without serious
consideration or study and then make life difficult for their people
who belong to NR.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13490 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Salve, Patricia Cassia:

On Tue, Jul 29, 2003 at 07:37:43AM -0400, Patricia Cassia wrote:
> Wow -- they found ancient Roman face cream! I don't think the
> "sulphurous and cheesy" scent would go over well with today's buyers...
>
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030728/sc_nm/britain_roman_dc_1

I suspect that if it _hadn't_ been "sulphurous and cheesy", it wouldn't
have gone over well in AR. The "strong medicine" idea has been around
for a long, long time and - AIUI - is still a problem for doctors
working in under-developed countries, particularly Latin America where
many people have an almost-religious belief in the efficacy of vitamin B
injections (which supposedly "make men grow strong".) I recall a Patrick
O'Brien novel - "Master and Commander", I think - where the ship's
doctor mixes /asafoetida/ into a neutral-tasting medicine because the
sailors wouldn't believe that it worked well otherwise.

There was also a recent discussion on the "toothpaste" used by Romans in
the Sodalitas Militarium. Feel free to search for "toothpaste" and
"Iberian"... if you have a strong stomach, that is. :)


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
Everything changes, nothing perishes.
-- Ovid, "Metamorphoses"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13491 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Salve Patricia Cassia,

Wow..that is a remarkable find. I wonder if the cream
had "turned", which enhanced the smell somewhat. 2000 years is a long
time to stay fresh. :) The chemical analysis should be interesting.

It is sad that this wonderful site, with all the archeological
wonders in it, is to be buried under a shopping mall in a few months.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...>
wrote:
> Wow -- they found ancient Roman face cream! I don't think the
> "sulphurous and cheesy" scent would go over well with today's
buyers...
>
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030728/sc_nm/
> britain_roman_dc_1
>
>
> -----
> Patricia Cassia
> Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> Nova Roma . pcassia@n...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13492 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Citizenship oath
A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Ambrosius Belisarius and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

In principle I'd support a measure to give incoming
citizens a clearer idea of what citizenship involves
and to strengthen their commitment.

However, as Apulus Caesar has already said, it would
be a real log-jam on the main list if every new
citizen had to post an oath; it's bad enough every
January with all the oaths of new magistrates.

What I'd like to see, as a modified version of your
idea, is a page of 'terms and conditions' on the
application form that people must read and accept
before joining. This would have a similar effect, I
hope, but perhaps in a more efficient way.

It would also be useful if these conditions made it
clear that membership (citizenship) involves accepting
all the laws, edicts &c., and that breaking these may
result in expulsion or other penalties.

As for the rings, that idea seems to pop up quite
frequently, and I believe someone actually got as far
as making some once - have a look in the archives, it
should be there somewhere. In fact it's often worth
looking in the archives on any topic in case it's come
up before - slavery, for example, as you've recently
been hearing from Senator Drusus!

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13493 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath 'Rings'
Salve,
As a fellow citizen mentioned in response to my bringing up the ring issue, I believe that if an official NR ring was offered by our merchants at a reasonable price and quality, many people, especially the more serious minded and loyal (PLEASE DO NOT GET OFFENDED ANYONE>) would purchase them and wear them with pride. Hopefully, they would be delivered in a timely manner, I for one ordered a particular item and have been waiting nearly 2 months for delivery that I have given up any hope of receiving said items.
The oaths would be voluntary, obviously. I was in the military for 10 years and I currently have similar employment...needless to say, they would not take an oath to anything that would be considered a risk, especially in this day and age, lightly. That is not the case here. I personally found a second home in NR and I am proud of this organization and the many members who share their thoughts and knowledge and their love for Roma with their fellow citizens.
This all being said, a certificate or a ring...a physical evidence of something we hold dear is not a bad thing. I understand that a certificate is probably not historically accurate, nevertheless, accuracy does not keep us from going on-line and having discussions as opposed to papyrus and hot wax signets and seals. (little joke.)
Marcvs Flavivs Fides

"A. Apollonius Cordus" <a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Ambrosius Belisarius and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

In principle I'd support a measure to give incoming
citizens a clearer idea of what citizenship involves
and to strengthen their commitment.

However, as Apulus Caesar has already said, it would
be a real log-jam on the main list if every new
citizen had to post an oath; it's bad enough every
January with all the oaths of new magistrates.

What I'd like to see, as a modified version of your
idea, is a page of 'terms and conditions' on the
application form that people must read and accept
before joining. This would have a similar effect, I
hope, but perhaps in a more efficient way.

It would also be useful if these conditions made it
clear that membership (citizenship) involves accepting
all the laws, edicts &c., and that breaking these may
result in expulsion or other penalties.

As for the rings, that idea seems to pop up quite
frequently, and I believe someone actually got as far
as making some once - have a look in the archives, it
should be there somewhere. In fact it's often worth
looking in the archives on any topic in case it's come
up before - slavery, for example, as you've recently
been hearing from Senator Drusus!

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13494 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
A shopping mall over an ancient temple...that is progress, isn't it?

aoctaviaindagatrix <bryanta003@...> wrote:Salve Patricia Cassia,

Wow..that is a remarkable find. I wonder if the cream
had "turned", which enhanced the smell somewhat. 2000 years is a long
time to stay fresh. :) The chemical analysis should be interesting.

It is sad that this wonderful site, with all the archeological
wonders in it, is to be buried under a shopping mall in a few months.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...>
wrote:
> Wow -- they found ancient Roman face cream! I don't think the
> "sulphurous and cheesy" scent would go over well with today's
buyers...
>
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030728/sc_nm/
> britain_roman_dc_1
>
>
> -----
> Patricia Cassia
> Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> Nova Roma . pcassia@n...


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13495 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Ciao' Amico, come stai? Spero che bene.
I see your point but there are always rough edges to smooth out.
Applications for citizenship are tendered now so they must go to
someone. There are also the pater amd materfamilias to each gens to
stem the tide of oaths and funnel information to higher levels.
I think the pros though outweigh the cons yet i still do not have the
larger picture of processing that you and others see.
Sta bene piasano, ci veddiamo.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> the idea is not bad... but it's not good in teh same way!
> Where the new or moving citizen must to post the oath? To who?
> The majority of the nova romans aren't here in this list or in a
> public international list. The majority is not in just one list.
> Do you imagine to receive in your e-mail box 400-500 oaths per
year?
> Or do you imagine the Consul receiving 500 oaths? Funny ;-)
> And you have to think that not all the nova romans think NR like a
> micronation. A lot of people think NR is only a cultural
> organization. Why they have to oath in a micronation not-recognized?
> And an oath of citizenship must to have a religious connotation:
why
> a man of another religion (or atheist) loving Ancient Rome must
> accept the Religio? It's a serious problem.
>
> I repeat, in my opinion it's an interesting idea but I think there
> are too problems.
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13496 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
A fuscia flowering gooseberry? I never heard of it but it sounds
awsome! Would love to see a picture. Only thing I know of
gooseberries is that they are sour/bitter as hell but if you add
sugar................... they become a scrumptous dessert. I was
tempted to use them to make a gooseberry wine for next harvest
festival but made an red apple, green apple and peach, apricot
chablis blend - can't wait for a taste test in a few months.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@f...>
wrote:
> Salve Caesariensi:
>
> >Somewhat off-topic does anyone who has had the misfortune to pick
> gooseberries suspect that 'found under a goosegog bush' might at
one time
> have been literally true? For those unfamiliar, they have thorns
nearly an
> inch long and branches grow down, inward, and any ways they like
instead of
> out and up like most bushes.
>
> I planted a fuschia-flowering gooseberry in my front yard. I
planted it
> because it terrifies me.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cn. Iulius Strabo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13497 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
I don't know if this is the same as there was no copy of the original
posting replied to:
There were signet rings worn but I don't believe they were to be
proof of citizenship though they would serve that purpose as a
byproduct.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "saucydemon2000"
<saucydemon2000@y...> wrote:
>
>
> > Is a ring really in keeping with tradition? I've never read of
> any 'ring of citizenship' in ancient Rome, but I've been remiss in
my
> research before :)
>
> I believe that the iron ring was warn by senators during the early
> Republic. The iron was, or course, supplanted by more precious
> materials by the late Republic.
>
> L. Licinius Murena
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13498 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
Great idea.
There are several Seal engravers that can create (if one does not
already exist) a seal or signet ring based on your family crest or a
copy of any design you wish to have copied.

I had my family crest done on a signet ring (just too cool because
it's a Gryphon holding a sword and just looks wickedly cool) but they
will do any design - you can even get things printed on shirts and
mugs, lol, they made fun family gifts.

I can find the one I used that was fairly priced but there are so
many different types including the 3 most expensive stone method.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I like the idea of a certificate, even if it is not historically
> accurate.
> >
> > Is a ring really in keeping with tradition? I've never read of
> any 'ring of citizenship' in ancient Rome, but I've been remiss in
my
> research before :)
> >
> > I don't care for the idea of an oath of citizenship. In the face
> of macronational necessity, any such oath would perforce be so
> watered down as to be meaningless as regards citizenship.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > L C Sardonicus
>
> Salvete L C Sardonice et omnes,
>
> I sure like your idea of a citizenship ring or ring for a
particular
> office. I'll surf the net later and try to find out. That would be
a
> good selling article for our merchant class.
>
> I think Anna Octavia raises a good point with regards to many of
our
> military citizens having to take an oath. We all know that NR in
its
> mandate does not pose a threat to any macro nation but at the same
> time there are those in the governments and military that would
> casually take fleeting glances over the NR and pan it without
serious
> consideration or study and then make life difficult for their
people
> who belong to NR.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13499 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Yes, I read his concerns and agree with them.
I still believe there are modifications that can be made as you have
suggested to make some type of progress to improve the current
moethod. As suggested the pater and materfamilas of each gens being
applied to can be the funnel for the log jam and not the main list.
Also, weekly or monthly the oat of citizenship can be posted once
with all the names of the recently approved as notification to them
and all citizens that we have company, lol.
Many citizens if not shy, announce themselves but it might be nice to
be given an intoduction and welcome to NR.
OK, so I'm like the neighborhood welcoming commitee, lol, just a
friendly step in the right direction; a small step but it means a lot
to a new person to be brought into the fold as opposed to jumping in
by themselves.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Ambrosius Belisarius and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> In principle I'd support a measure to give incoming
> citizens a clearer idea of what citizenship involves
> and to strengthen their commitment.
>
> However, as Apulus Caesar has already said, it would
> be a real log-jam on the main list if every new
> citizen had to post an oath; it's bad enough every
> January with all the oaths of new magistrates.
>
> What I'd like to see, as a modified version of your
> idea, is a page of 'terms and conditions' on the
> application form that people must read and accept
> before joining. This would have a similar effect, I
> hope, but perhaps in a more efficient way.
>
> It would also be useful if these conditions made it
> clear that membership (citizenship) involves accepting
> all the laws, edicts &c., and that breaking these may
> result in expulsion or other penalties.
>
> As for the rings, that idea seems to pop up quite
> frequently, and I believe someone actually got as far
> as making some once - have a look in the archives, it
> should be there somewhere. In fact it's often worth
> looking in the archives on any topic in case it's come
> up before - slavery, for example, as you've recently
> been hearing from Senator Drusus!
>
> Cordus
>
> =====
> www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13500 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
They paved paradise and put in a parking lot..........la la la! LMAO.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> A shopping mall over an ancient temple...that is progress, isn't it?
>
> aoctaviaindagatrix <bryanta003@h...> wrote:Salve Patricia Cassia,
>
> Wow..that is a remarkable find. I wonder if the cream
> had "turned", which enhanced the smell somewhat. 2000 years is a
long
> time to stay fresh. :) The chemical analysis should be interesting.
>
> It is sad that this wonderful site, with all the archeological
> wonders in it, is to be buried under a shopping mall in a few
months.
>
> Vale,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...>
> wrote:
> > Wow -- they found ancient Roman face cream! I don't think the
> > "sulphurous and cheesy" scent would go over well with today's
> buyers...
> >
> > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030728/sc_nm/
> > britain_roman_dc_1
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Patricia Cassia
> > Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> > Nova Roma . pcassia@n...
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13501 From: R M Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship - was: Oath of office
I was highlighting that iron was senatorial.... I made the mistake of inserting the comment near the applicable part of the previous message. If this caused confusion I apologize

L. Licinius Murena

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@...> wrote:
I don't know if this is the same as there was no copy of the original
posting replied to:
There were signet rings worn but I don't believe they were to be
proof of citizenship though they would serve that purpose as a
byproduct.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "saucydemon2000"
<saucydemon2000@y...> wrote:
>
>
> > Is a ring really in keeping with tradition? I've never read of
> any 'ring of citizenship' in ancient Rome, but I've been remiss in
my
> research before :)
>
> I believe that the iron ring was warn by senators during the early
> Republic. The iron was, or course, supplanted by more precious
> materials by the late Republic.
>
> L. Licinius Murena


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13502 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
Touche, mon amie...touche!!

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@...> wrote:They paved paradise and put in a parking lot..........la la la! LMAO.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> A shopping mall over an ancient temple...that is progress, isn't it?
>
> aoctaviaindagatrix <bryanta003@h...> wrote:Salve Patricia Cassia,
>
> Wow..that is a remarkable find. I wonder if the cream
> had "turned", which enhanced the smell somewhat. 2000 years is a
long
> time to stay fresh. :) The chemical analysis should be interesting.
>
> It is sad that this wonderful site, with all the archeological
> wonders in it, is to be buried under a shopping mall in a few
months.
>
> Vale,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...>
> wrote:
> > Wow -- they found ancient Roman face cream! I don't think the
> > "sulphurous and cheesy" scent would go over well with today's
> buyers...
> >
> > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030728/sc_nm/
> > britain_roman_dc_1
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Patricia Cassia
> > Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> > Nova Roma . pcassia@n...
>
>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13503 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
Salvette Quirites!
We have tossed the idea around so is it yea or nea? Does anyone at least agree that the rings are not such a bad idea? Who do we propose this to officially? A comitia, perhaps?
Marcv Flavivs Fides
Eager Roman Citizen w/ Naked fingers

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@...> wrote:
Yes, I read his concerns and agree with them.
I still believe there are modifications that can be made as you have
suggested to make some type of progress to improve the current
moethod. As suggested the pater and materfamilas of each gens being
applied to can be the funnel for the log jam and not the main list.
Also, weekly or monthly the oat of citizenship can be posted once
with all the names of the recently approved as notification to them
and all citizens that we have company, lol.
Many citizens if not shy, announce themselves but it might be nice to
be given an intoduction and welcome to NR.
OK, so I'm like the neighborhood welcoming commitee, lol, just a
friendly step in the right direction; a small step but it means a lot
to a new person to be brought into the fold as opposed to jumping in
by themselves.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Ambrosius Belisarius and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> In principle I'd support a measure to give incoming
> citizens a clearer idea of what citizenship involves
> and to strengthen their commitment.
>
> However, as Apulus Caesar has already said, it would
> be a real log-jam on the main list if every new
> citizen had to post an oath; it's bad enough every
> January with all the oaths of new magistrates.
>
> What I'd like to see, as a modified version of your
> idea, is a page of 'terms and conditions' on the
> application form that people must read and accept
> before joining. This would have a similar effect, I
> hope, but perhaps in a more efficient way.
>
> It would also be useful if these conditions made it
> clear that membership (citizenship) involves accepting
> all the laws, edicts &c., and that breaking these may
> result in expulsion or other penalties.
>
> As for the rings, that idea seems to pop up quite
> frequently, and I believe someone actually got as far
> as making some once - have a look in the archives, it
> should be there somewhere. In fact it's often worth
> looking in the archives on any topic in case it's come
> up before - slavery, for example, as you've recently
> been hearing from Senator Drusus!
>
> Cordus
>
> =====
> www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
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Yahoo!
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13504 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Found it, very cool.
If anyone wants to see some very interesting pictures of this tree:
http://www.calflora.net/bloomingplants/fuchsiafloweredgooseberry.html


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> A fuscia flowering gooseberry? I never heard of it but it sounds
> awsome! Would love to see a picture. Only thing I know of
> gooseberries is that they are sour/bitter as hell but if you add
> sugar................... they become a scrumptous dessert. I was
> tempted to use them to make a gooseberry wine for next harvest
> festival but made an red apple, green apple and peach, apricot
> chablis blend - can't wait for a taste test in a few months.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@f...>
> wrote:
> > Salve Caesariensi:
> >
> > >Somewhat off-topic does anyone who has had the misfortune to pick
> > gooseberries suspect that 'found under a goosegog bush' might at
> one time
> > have been literally true? For those unfamiliar, they have thorns
> nearly an
> > inch long and branches grow down, inward, and any ways they like
> instead of
> > out and up like most bushes.
> >
> > I planted a fuschia-flowering gooseberry in my front yard. I
> planted it
> > because it terrifies me.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cn. Iulius Strabo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13505 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
One Yeah, from me and yeah again for the rings.
The SPQR with wreath of the Nova Roma flag can be the ring face and
it might be a cool idea to check into the signet rings or seals with
sealing wax etc.
Makes a very impressive sigil on letters and documents.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> Salvette Quirites!
> We have tossed the idea around so is it yea or nea?
Does anyone at least agree that the rings are not such a bad idea?
Who do we propose this to officially? A comitia, perhaps?
> Marcv Flavivs Fides
> Eager Roman Citizen w/ Naked fingers
>
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Yes, I read his concerns and agree with them.
> I still believe there are modifications that can be made as you
have
> suggested to make some type of progress to improve the current
> moethod. As suggested the pater and materfamilas of each gens
being
> applied to can be the funnel for the log jam and not the main list.
> Also, weekly or monthly the oat of citizenship can be posted once
> with all the names of the recently approved as notification to them
> and all citizens that we have company, lol.
> Many citizens if not shy, announce themselves but it might be nice
to
> be given an intoduction and welcome to NR.
> OK, so I'm like the neighborhood welcoming commitee, lol, just a
> friendly step in the right direction; a small step but it means a
lot
> to a new person to be brought into the fold as opposed to jumping
in
> by themselves.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Ambrosius Belisarius and
> > all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
> >
> > In principle I'd support a measure to give incoming
> > citizens a clearer idea of what citizenship involves
> > and to strengthen their commitment.
> >
> > However, as Apulus Caesar has already said, it would
> > be a real log-jam on the main list if every new
> > citizen had to post an oath; it's bad enough every
> > January with all the oaths of new magistrates.
> >
> > What I'd like to see, as a modified version of your
> > idea, is a page of 'terms and conditions' on the
> > application form that people must read and accept
> > before joining. This would have a similar effect, I
> > hope, but perhaps in a more efficient way.
> >
> > It would also be useful if these conditions made it
> > clear that membership (citizenship) involves accepting
> > all the laws, edicts &c., and that breaking these may
> > result in expulsion or other penalties.
> >
> > As for the rings, that idea seems to pop up quite
> > frequently, and I believe someone actually got as far
> > as making some once - have a look in the archives, it
> > should be there somewhere. In fact it's often worth
> > looking in the archives on any topic in case it's come
> > up before - slavery, for example, as you've recently
> > been hearing from Senator Drusus!
> >
> > Cordus
> >
> > =====
> > www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
> Yahoo!
> > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
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>
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>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13506 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
raymond fuentes wrote:
> Who do we propose this to officially?
> A comitia, perhaps?

Salve, Marce Flavi Fides.

You, or any other citizen so inclined, is most welcome to start
producing whatever merchandise of a roman character and apply for
membership in the Ordo Equester. If whoever does this wants it to be an
exclusive, "official nova roman ring", I am certain that the senate
would be willing to at least consider granting their approval.

For a ring to be given to each new citizen upon them receiving their
citizenship, our budget would have to be able to cover such an expense.
Which it is not. So even IF some legislation stating this was to be done
got proposed to a comitia and passed there, there would be no way to
adhere to that law.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13507 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-29
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Salve

A number of months ago some posted to the ML that they were in the process of researching a "Citizenship ring that would have a SPQNR on the face. We debated the "N" as not being appropriate and the debate petered out. I do not remember who posted on the Ring but they even had a web site you could go to and see the type of ring they were talking about.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com ; SPQR
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:39 PM
Subject: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?


Salvete Omnes,
We have tossed the idea around...do we or don't we get rings. Who do we propose this to, a comitia perhaps? Does anyone at least agree that it is a good idea?
Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Eager Roman Citizen with naked fingers.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13508 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: New poll for Nova-Roma
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Nova-Roma group:

Salve Romans

I started to research the idea of
a "Citizenship" ring last fall and
stopped when someone else posted to
the ML and seemed further along and
ready to go.

I will now pick up my research with a
few questions.

I would buy a NR "Citizenship Ring"
if ...

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

o it cost under $100 US
o It cost between $101-$200 US
o It cost between $201-$300 US
o It cost under $ 500 US
o NR got 10% of the Retail Price
o NR got 20% of the Retail Price
o NR got 30% of the Retail Price
o NR got 40% of the Retail Price
o NR got 50% of the Retail Price
o It should be a plain steel or iron Ring
o It should be made of gold or Silver
o it could be made of a man made alloy that looks like gold/ silver/ steel/or iron
o The ring should have a "SPQNR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR and laurel wreath on top
o The Ring should have a"SPQR" with a RED background, like the NR Flag
o The Ring should have a "SPQR with a BLACK background
o It should include someting extra for elected officals
o NR should presenta "Special SPQR Ring" to each years new Consuls
o I would never buy a NR Citizenship Ring


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/surveys?id=11159337

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13509 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Ancient Greek Music
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Ancient Greek Music":

http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agm/

This site, created by Stefan Hagel (Austrian Academy of Sciences),
contains more than thirty Real Player and MIDI files of ancient
Hellenic and Hellenistic music dating from the fifth century BCE to the
3rd/4th century CE. The links on Homeric singing and ancient Greek
pronunication are also valuable.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13510 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: NOVA ROMAN INTERNATIONAL RALLY: weather
Salvete Omnes,
tomorrow the first partecipants to the meeting will arrive in
Bologna.
This is the weather since 3rd August:

31th July: little cloudy
min +22° C
max +32° C

1st August: scattered thunderstorms
min +21° C
max +27° C

2nd August: Serene sky
min +20° C
max +32° C

3rd August: serene sky
min +24° C
max +34° C

I suggest to have summer cloath like t-shirts, shorts, gym shoes,
sun glasses, etc.
In the 1st August, day dedicated to the discussions, the weather
will help us, and the same for the 2nd.

I think the weather in Rome will be hot more than Bologna.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13511 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Absentia
Salvete Omnes,

I inform you that I'll be absent from tomorrow 31th July to 18th
August.

From tomorrow to 3rd I'll be in Bologna for the Nova Roman Meeting
where I hope to meet sevral nova romans.
After I'll go in Sardinia, a very beautiful island, and at the
border-line of Austria, in the gallic land.

In this period I think to not able to surf in Internet. Illustrus
Quaestor and Legatus Manius Constantinus Serapio will be my Vicarius
and spokesman for the Office of Propraetor Provinciae Italiae and
Curulis Aedilis. He will be helped by Legatus Marcus IUlius
Perusianus.

I wish you all quiet and relaxing holidays!

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Aedilis Curulis
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13512 From: M.Adrianus Complutensis Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: ABSENTIA
Salvete Omnes,

I inform you that I'll be absent from 1st until end of August.

Valete bene

M. Adrianus Complutensis


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13513 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Absens until August the 17th
Salvete Quirites!

On Thursday I am leaving for the Nova Roman Rally in Italia, together
with Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus who is my Ductor Cohortis
(Chief (Guide) of Staff), Honorable Emilia Curia Finnica and
Honorable Gallus Minucius Iovinus.

I will leave the Res Publica in the hands of my able colleague Consul
Illustrus Titus Labienus Fortunatus.

I hope that those who think that we should have had contact before my
trip will excuse me as I have had a hectic schedule the two last
weeks. Please contact me when I will return and I will try to do what
I can. Anyone who would like to get in touch with me during the trip
or with my Cohors should turn to Illustrus Gnaeus Equitius Marinus as
he is the Vicarius Secundus Ductoris Cohortis (Second Deputy Chief
(Guide) of Staff) and Acting Ductoris Cohortis (Acting Chief (Guide)
of Staff) until the end of August.

I really look forward to the Rally and hope to get to know even more
citizens there. I would have liked to see even more of You there, but
I expect that we will meet in the future.

After the Rally Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus, Honorable Emilia
Curia Finnica, Honorable Gallus Minucius Iovinus and I will leave for
Roma Aeterna where we will stay for 10 - 20 days. We hope to enjoy
Roma fully as Nova Roman citiuzens and at the same time have a nice
holiday.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13514 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: ancient Roman cosmetics found
It is progress... of our era barbarian manners!

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> A shopping mall over an ancient temple...that is progress, isn't it?
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13515 From: politicog Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@...> wrote:
> Found it, very cool.
> If anyone wants to see some very interesting
> pictures of this tree:
>
http://www.calflora.net/bloomingplants/fuchsiafloweredgooseberry.html
>
>
>

Too bad my machine only accepts the 16 color map
now. GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!! All the colors worked fine
before our systems administrator installed our new
operating system.


Lucius Quintius Constantius

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13516 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
--- politicog <politicog@...> wrote:
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@...> wrote:
> > Found it, very cool.
> > If anyone wants to see some very interesting
> > pictures of this tree:
> >
>
http://www.calflora.net/bloomingplants/fuchsiafloweredgooseberry.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> Too bad my machine only accepts the 16 color map
> now. GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!! All the colors worked fine
> before our systems administrator installed our new
> operating system.
>
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>

If it's Windows you either have a bad video driver or
your video settings got reset to the default value.

Try right clicking on the Desktop, Select Properties,
then click on the Settings tab. See if you can reset
Color Quality. If you can't reset it you will need an
updated Video driver.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13517 From: politicog Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Article from U.S. News and World Reports on the Roman World in 1 AD
While researching aspects of family life in Ancient
Rome, I came across an article that was published in
U.S. News & World Reports on the Roman World in 1 AD
-- 754 AUC. It has some interesting comments on Roman
politics, the Roman worldview, and social customs.


http://www.mead.k12.wa.us/Mhs/Hanson/readings/The%20Year%20One.pdf

Thought I would share it with you all.

Lucius Quintius Constantius

__________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13518 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Salivate Quires,
outstanding poll!! I implore all citizens to answer. I truly believe this is a step forward if it comes true. I would actually strain myself looking at peoples hands from here on out trying to find fellow Romain. I believe the iron would work best for citizens and more precious alloys for magistrates or outstanding citizens worthy of notice. Where do we go from here, I do not want the matter to fade away as other citizens have mentioned it has in the past. Does anyone know a manufacturer?
Valet,
Marc vs Flavors Fades
P.S.-What were the results for the mock vote?

Nova-Roma@yahoo groups.com wrote:

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Nova-Roma group:

Salve Romans

I started to research the idea of
a "Citizenship" ring last fall and
stopped when someone else posted to
the ML and seemed further along and
ready to go.

I will now pick up my research with a
few questions.

I would buy a NR "Citizenship Ring"
if ...

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

o it cost under $100 US
o It cost between $101-$200 US
o It cost between $201-$300 US
o It cost under $ 500 US
o NR got 10% of the Retail Price
o NR got 20% of the Retail Price
o NR got 30% of the Retail Price
o NR got 40% of the Retail Price
o NR got 50% of the Retail Price
o It should be a plain steel or iron Ring
o It should be made of gold or Silver
o it could be made of a man made alloy that looks like gold/ silver/ steel/or iron
o The ring should have a "SPQNR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR and laurel wreath on top
o The Ring should have a"SPQR" with a RED background, like the NR Flag
o The Ring should have a "SPQR with a BLACK background
o It should include someting extra for elected officals
o NR should presenta "Special SPQR Ring" to each years new Consuls
o I would never buy a NR Citizenship Ring


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/surveys?id=11159337

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!







Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13519 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...> writes:

> I believe the iron would work best for citizens and more
> precious alloys for magistrates or outstanding citizens worthy of notice.

This magistrate will wear an iron ring on the index finger of his
right hand, in the manner of antiquity. If others prefer to wear
silver or gold, that's fine by me, but I choose steel.

> Where do we go from here, I do not want the matter to fade away as other
> citizens have mentioned it has in the past. Does anyone know a
> manufacturer?

I know a couple of jewelers. If there's substantial interest I can
ask them for cost estimates.

> P.S.-What were the results for the mock vote?

The rogators are still working on getting a final answer to me.
I've had communications with them over the past few days.

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13520 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Salve

I have a number of e-mails that I send to a number of Ring companies One make a very nice stanless steel ring that would help make money for NR but not kill everybody who wants to buy the ring.

More to follow


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)


Salivate Quires,
outstanding poll!! I implore all citizens to answer. I truly believe this is a step forward if it comes true. I would actually strain myself looking at peoples hands from here on out trying to find fellow Romain. I believe the iron would work best for citizens and more precious alloys for magistrates or outstanding citizens worthy of notice. Where do we go from here, I do not want the matter to fade away as other citizens have mentioned it has in the past. Does anyone know a manufacturer?
Valet,
Marc vs Flavors Fades
P.S.-What were the results for the mock vote?

Nova-Roma@yahoo groups.com wrote:

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Nova-Roma group:

Salve Romans

I started to research the idea of
a "Citizenship" ring last fall and
stopped when someone else posted to
the ML and seemed further along and
ready to go.

I will now pick up my research with a
few questions.

I would buy a NR "Citizenship Ring"
if ...

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

o it cost under $100 US
o It cost between $101-$200 US
o It cost between $201-$300 US
o It cost under $ 500 US
o NR got 10% of the Retail Price
o NR got 20% of the Retail Price
o NR got 30% of the Retail Price
o NR got 40% of the Retail Price
o NR got 50% of the Retail Price
o It should be a plain steel or iron Ring
o It should be made of gold or Silver
o it could be made of a man made alloy that looks like gold/ silver/ steel/or iron
o The ring should have a "SPQNR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR and laurel wreath on top
o The Ring should have a"SPQR" with a RED background, like the NR Flag
o The Ring should have a "SPQR with a BLACK background
o It should include someting extra for elected officals
o NR should presenta "Special SPQR Ring" to each years new Consuls
o I would never buy a NR Citizenship Ring


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/surveys?id=11159337

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!







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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13521 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Salve,
Marinvs, welcome back! I hope all is well or at least as well as it can be. As you notice, the spell check totally jarbled the latin portions of my previous posting. I am not that much of an illiterati. As for our prior discussion, I have not yet recieved my order. I will wait one more market interval and then take the next step including providing you with any revelent information. As for the rings, I truly believe this is a great step! I hope it does not founder.
As always, it is good to hear from you. Ave!
Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman citizen with anticipating fingers.
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...> writes:

> I believe the iron would work best for citizens and more
> precious alloys for magistrates or outstanding citizens worthy of notice.

This magistrate will wear an iron ring on the index finger of his
right hand, in the manner of antiquity. If others prefer to wear
silver or gold, that's fine by me, but I choose steel.

> Where do we go from here, I do not want the matter to fade away as other
> citizens have mentioned it has in the past. Does anyone know a
> manufacturer?

I know a couple of jewelers. If there's substantial interest I can
ask them for cost estimates.

> P.S.-What were the results for the mock vote?

The rogators are still working on getting a final answer to me.
I've had communications with them over the past few days.

-- Marinus

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13522 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Salve,
It would appear, that you are two steps ahead as usual. Bravo!
Marcvs Flavivs Fides

Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
Salve

I have a number of e-mails that I send to a number of Ring companies One make a very nice stanless steel ring that would help make money for NR but not kill everybody who wants to buy the ring.

More to follow


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)


Salivate Quires,
outstanding poll!! I implore all citizens to answer. I truly believe this is a step forward if it comes true. I would actually strain myself looking at peoples hands from here on out trying to find fellow Romain. I believe the iron would work best for citizens and more precious alloys for magistrates or outstanding citizens worthy of notice. Where do we go from here, I do not want the matter to fade away as other citizens have mentioned it has in the past. Does anyone know a manufacturer?
Valet,
Marc vs Flavors Fades
P.S.-What were the results for the mock vote?

Nova-Roma@yahoo groups.com wrote:

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Nova-Roma group:

Salve Romans

I started to research the idea of
a "Citizenship" ring last fall and
stopped when someone else posted to
the ML and seemed further along and
ready to go.

I will now pick up my research with a
few questions.

I would buy a NR "Citizenship Ring"
if ...

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

o it cost under $100 US
o It cost between $101-$200 US
o It cost between $201-$300 US
o It cost under $ 500 US
o NR got 10% of the Retail Price
o NR got 20% of the Retail Price
o NR got 30% of the Retail Price
o NR got 40% of the Retail Price
o NR got 50% of the Retail Price
o It should be a plain steel or iron Ring
o It should be made of gold or Silver
o it could be made of a man made alloy that looks like gold/ silver/ steel/or iron
o The ring should have a "SPQNR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR" on top
o The ring should have a "SPQR and laurel wreath on top
o The Ring should have a"SPQR" with a RED background, like the NR Flag
o The Ring should have a "SPQR with a BLACK background
o It should include someting extra for elected officals
o NR should presenta "Special SPQR Ring" to each years new Consuls
o I would never buy a NR Citizenship Ring


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/surveys?id=11159337

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!







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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13523 From: Manius Constantinus Serapio Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Absentia
AVETE OMNES

I inform you that I will be absent from tomorrow until
August 4th. I will take part to the 2nd Nova Roma
Rally in Europe, which this year takes place in
Bologna (Provincia Italia), where I'll have to check
that my work as a Quaestor and as the Dominus
Praefectus of Sodalitas Egressus was well done! ;-)

I look forward to meeting all of the novaromans which
will take part to the meeting! :-)

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor
Legatvs Provinciae Italiae
Dominvs Praefectvs Sodalitatis Egressvs

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13524 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Marcus Flavius Fides writes:

> Marinvs, welcome back! I hope all is well or at least as well as it can
> be.

My mother-in-law is out of the hospital and back in her "assisted
living" apartment. She's in about as good a shape as she's going
to get, all things considered.

> As for our prior discussion, I have not yet recieved my order.

I shall discuss the matter with you further off-list.

> As for the rings, I truly believe this is a great
> step! I hope it does not founder.

My personal feeling is that the ring ought not to be a citizenship
token, but it should be something that any Nova Roman citizen may
obtain for a reasonable price should they want one. I like the
idea of a stainless steel ring, as mentioned elsewhere.

> As always, it is good to hear from you. Ave!

My pleasure Marcus Flavius.

Vale,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13525 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Iron has snob appeal,
Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...>
wrote:
> Marcus Flavius Fides writes:
>
> > Marinvs, welcome back! I hope all is well or at least as well as
it can
> > be.
>
> My mother-in-law is out of the hospital and back in her "assisted
> living" apartment. She's in about as good a shape as she's going
> to get, all things considered.
>
> > As for our prior discussion, I have not yet recieved my order.
>
> I shall discuss the matter with you further off-list.
>
> > As for the rings, I truly believe this is a great
> > step! I hope it does not founder.
>
> My personal feeling is that the ring ought not to be a citizenship
> token, but it should be something that any Nova Roman citizen may
> obtain for a reasonable price should they want one. I like the
> idea of a stainless steel ring, as mentioned elsewhere.
>
> > As always, it is good to hear from you. Ave!
>
> My pleasure Marcus Flavius.
>
> Vale,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13526 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Citizenship oath
While the Ring is a great idea, I didn't think it would be made a
gift.
They are costly depending upon the quality.
If approved I personally would make the purchase and think others
would do similarly though understandably not everyone may be in
aposition to do this.
I wouldn't ecpect Nova Roma to fork the bill.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> raymond fuentes wrote:
> > Who do we propose this to officially?
> > A comitia, perhaps?
>
> Salve, Marce Flavi Fides.
>
> You, or any other citizen so inclined, is most welcome to start
> producing whatever merchandise of a roman character and apply for
> membership in the Ordo Equester. If whoever does this wants it to
be an
> exclusive, "official nova roman ring", I am certain that the senate
> would be willing to at least consider granting their approval.
>
> For a ring to be given to each new citizen upon them receiving their
> citizenship, our budget would have to be able to cover such an
expense.
> Which it is not. So even IF some legislation stating this was to be
done
> got proposed to a comitia and passed there, there would be no way to
> adhere to that law.
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13527 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: absentia & chapters 3 and 4
Salvete omnes,

Here are the chapters 3 and 4.

Early tomorrow morning I will start my travel to Bologna where I will
stay 31st-4th in the Nova Roma Rally. From there I will continue to
the eternal city itself and spend rest of my holidays there, that is
till 24th of August. So I will be very absent from mailing lists for
some time, but private mails I will probably be able to read once per
1-2 days intervals.

Valete,


----
Chapter 3 : Investigations

I was very surprised to hear the news from my master. He also looked
quite surprised.

"This complicates things, Diodotus" he said. "We need to do some
inquiries to find out the truth."

"But what could we do? What we could do to resolve the mystery of the
death of Aulus Flavius?" I asked.

"Solve the death of Claudia" my master answered.

"What is there to solve, she died into snake bite as you said?"

"Well, we know how she died, but we need to know why she died!" my
master said with some impatience in his voice. "Now we are in a
hurry, I need to arrange a feast for tonight and it is almost third
hour of day, if I'm not mistaken. I want you to do some things for me
and before them you will need to instruct the servants to make
necessary preparations, it is imperative that everything is done
exactly as I say."

My master gave me long list of instructions about my and other
servants duties. I spent some time gathering the servants to the
garden and gave each a necessary set of instructions about the foods
for the dinner and other things. After assuring that everyone knew
what to do I switched on my better tunica and did some other needed
arrangements for my trip and left the house.

It was a very warm day and Sun was shining giving light on even the
most narrow streets and making broader streets very hot. There were
lots of people in the streets and as it was a festival time, there
was a constant traffic on almost every street. There was still
something malevolent in the air, people were somehow restless and
nervous. I tried to find more quiet streets in order to be able to
walk faster.

My first destination was the house of Secundus Varius Maro. I asked
from the servant if his master was in the house, but he was not. I
said that I had an urgent message to deliver from my master to him
and asked if the servant knew when his master was about to return.
The servant said that he did not know, but he could give the message
to his master.

"I'm sorry but my orders are to give this message to him personally,
I shall have to wait for him then." I said.

The servant was not too happy feeling that he wasn't trusted, one of
those servants who thought themselves to be more valuable than they
really were. I was guided through servants entrance into the small
waiting room a door in which gave a view to the garden. The servant
looked at me suspiciously, but finally left me alone in the room to
wait his master and walked away probably trying to look busier than
he really was. I waited for some time and then rose up, apparently to
strech my legs and arms a little, but in reality I looked into the
garden and noticed that there was no-one there. Casually walking, but
with some exitement, I left from the waiting room and on every step
that I took I waited for someone to shout and ask where I was
thinking to go. But such disruption never materialised and I reached
my goal, a kitchen where the cook was preparing his little kingdom
for the evening meal. He looked at me surprised.

"Who are you and what are you doing here?"

I shortly explained that I was messenger who was supposed to bring an
important message to his master who was absent at the moment. To
assure him I showed parchment scroll which I took from my purse. He
believed me but still looked at me with a question in his eyes.

"While I was waiting there in the waiting room I noticed that I was
getting thirsty. I wonder if you could give me some water?" I asked
as casually as I could.

"Well of course."

He went for a large amphora that was in the dark corner of the
kitchen room. He took a ceramic cup from the shelf on the wall and
filled it. He gave the cup to me and I drank it, this time being
really thirsty as my mouth felt dry from exitement.

"Thank you, I needed that. So hot in this time of year."

"Yes it has been, and according to my master, it will get hotter" he
said with peculiar smile.

"How could he know such a thing?"

"He does not mean the weather, but as my master is an important man,
he knows some important people and, don't tell this to anyone else,
there will be some, hmm, turbulence in the politics before the next
Idus." he said with an expression that showed he had just been
waiting for someone new to gossip with.

I asked some questions to encourage him to go on with the rumours and
listened eagerly, knowing I would be interested. Then after small
pause in the discussion I casually said:

"I heard that your master was involved in something very singular last night"

He looked very surprised and asked: "How do you know that?"

"My master is also an important man who'se recieving informations
from many directions" I answered with a serious face.

He told about the same story I had heard from my master in the early
morning, but with much more colourful expressions.

"Did your master know Aulus Flavius well?" I asked.

"Well, no, not well, they had met couple of times..." his sentence
was not to be finished because the master servant had silently come
to the kitchen door.

"Ah, gossiping once again! And you, didn't I show you the waiting room?"

"Yes, but I was thirsty and I need to continue my trip, here is the
message, make sure that your master recieves it at once when he comes
back. And now, please show me to the door!"

He showed me out, and while I was walking round the corner I
wondered, what his master would say recieving an empty scroll of
parchment.

I continued my way to the scene of the unfortunate tragedy of this
morning. The house of Claudia was not very far from the house of
Oppius Fabius. It was an old house with a very large garden. I
presented myself to the sad looking servant who opened the door and
told him that I had just arrived to Rome from Ostia and that I had an
message to lady Claudia from her friend that lived in Ostia. The
servant looked at me and showed me in without saying anything, and I
was guided to the premises of Claudias secratary. He told me the news
and I tried to look like that it was big surprise to me. I expressed
my condolences and said that in that case my message was pointless,
as it was invitation for a visit that would never happen now.

Now, when the formalities were behind, I switched into a more
leisurely style of speech and asked:

"You said that it was snake that bit her? How is that possible, we
are in a city!"

"Perhaps you don't know that this house is famous for its large
garden that has had snakes for ages. No one knows why, but they like
to live here."

I continued the conversation for a little time, and after it I left
the house, and after a couple of blocks walk I knocked on the
servants door of the house of Oppius Fabius Rusticus.

"I'm Diodotus, in the service of Quintus Valerius Italicus and I'm
here to acquire information about the tragic chain of events of last
night. My master has recieved an order to investigate this by the
command of Publius Laetonius Crispus who is, I believe, a close
associate of the master of this house" I answered to the servants
request.

He looked at me for some time and then nodded with a tired expression
and let me in to the house. He asked me what I would like to do and
his voice had some amount of disbelief in my skills. Personally I
felt that I had done my duties well this far today, so I took a more
commanding expression and asked to be lead into the room where the
body had been found.

Whatever I had been expecting to see, I was disappointed. The room
looked exactly like any other room in any other house. It was a small
room with some painted pictures on the walls and a floor decorated
with mosaique and skillful usage of different couloured floor stones.
There were small table and one chair. Servant told that last night
during the dinner there had been couches and a larger table onto
which the food was layed. There was also a small window to the
another corridor and a door opened to the corridor that lead into
garden in a way that from garden no-one could see into the room.

The servant was standing by the door while I looked inside the room
and as I didn't know what else to do I walked carefully in the room
and tried to memorise every detail of it as my master had told me to
do. After doing this for some time I decided that it was time to fill
out the second order of my master and ask from the servant a question:

"As a long time servant of Oppius Fabius you probably know well his
closest circles. Now, what I have understood is that late Aulus
Flavius was not very religious man, was he? I mean, he was not the
type who would fall into new foreign religions?"

The servant looked at me cautiously as if thinking about how much
information he could give to me, but apparently decided that this
information was not harmful to the reputation of his master nor to
the dead man. "Certainly not, he was most patriotic and conservative.
Actually he passionately opposed any new religions saying 'Gods have
let us this far, why should we abandon them?'" answered the servant
with some irritation in his voice.

"Then it is not known why he had the amulet in his hand when he died?"

"That is absolutely a mystery for everyone" servant said with
disappointed voice and I started even question myself the sanity of
the orders my master had given me as it was obvious that the amulet
unexplainable mystery.

I left from the house and noticed that the sun had almost reached its
highest position in the sky. I was beginning to feel tired and walked
quite slowly to the house of Manius Florius Castus where I was
supposed to meet my master.

He was standing there and talking to some men who probably belonged
to his large group of old friends and customers. I had to wait for
some time while he was finishing his discussion. Finally he managed
to get himself free of it and came to me.

"It seems that you have had tiresome forenoon" he said with a smile.

"I have done everything you told me to do, but I have to say that we
are still a long way from solving this mystery" I said with tired
voice.

"Just the opposite, we are very near of it, if my suspicions are
correct" he answered again with a smile. "But, by all means, let us
enjoy something to eat and drink and while doing it you can give me
an account about the information you have gathered. I think I saw a
small shop there, outside the temple."

So we walked to the nearby temple and there was some kind of small
shop from which we bought some figs and small amphora of watered wine
and we sat into the shade of the temple to consume them. While eating
I summarised my achievements to him and in some way it seemed to be
amusing him, as he smiled all the more while I was telling my
experiences to him. When I reached the part of my last mission in the
house of Oppius Fabius, he was almost laughing.

"I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't see anything funny
with my futile journey this morning" I said with disappointed voice.

"No, by all means, your journey maybe has been less eventful than
that of Aeneas, but nevertheless it has been very succesful. Now, let
me tell you about my morning which consisted of only a visit to the
house of Postumus Calventius Velius. I'm sure that after I finish you
will agree that our mystery is almost solved" he said with a more
serious face.

"But one question first Diodotus, was there in the room where the
body was found a small covert part in the wall which was shielded by
curtains?" he asked with his most serious voice.

"Oh, well, I think there is, yes I'm sure there is such. It contained
a some kind of statue there" I answered surprised.

"As I said, almost everything is now solved, I will let you know what
I have discovered!" said my master.

"After you had left I headed into the Aventinus hill and I didn't
have to search too long to find the house of Postumus Calventius. He
himself was not of course present, but his wife was. She is a
remarkably beautiful woman, in that little vulgar way the women of
her class are often, even though they rise into a higher standing in
the society. She was also very stressed about the horrible news she
had heard in the morning. She was not, however, able to add anything
especially new to the facts we know from your journey and from the
account of Publius Laetonius. Only when I was leaving she remarked
that she had heard Manius Florius Castus' argue loudly in the room
where the body was found. She didn't know with whom he had argued, as
the other voice had been quieter. She didn't know if the voice
belonged to Aulus Flavius or someone else."

I looked into my master and said: "It is obvious then that he was
arguing with Aulus Flavius!"

"Well, certainly you could hold that as one of most obvious premises
we can make, but I think we need to ask from Manius Florius himself
about that. Let's go!" my master rose and we headed into the house of
Manius Florius. I was not too sure how fruitful it would be, as if he
was the murderer, he would not let us know.

"I wonder if he is in the house now" I remarked to my master when we
approached the door.

"I think he is, I have heard that he is not very sociable and likes
to keep inside his house during the festivals."

It was as my master had said. We were shown into his study. My master
didn't need to present himself as it seemed that Manius Florius knew
him already. My master explained that the purpose of our visit was to
make enquiries about the events of last night with the permission of
Publius Laetonius. That was all that was needed to make Manius
Florius nervous. He seemed to be the type who gets nervous easily and
his fat head became even whiter and swettier than it had been when we
walked into the room.

My master asked him some questions and he told about the same facts
we already knew. My master did not express that he already knew them.

"You have been heard to argue with a loud voice with someone during
the evening, can you tell with whom you argued and what it was
about?" my master asked with a casual voice.

Manius Florius looked my master very suspiciously and said: "One of
the servants who was supposed to waiter the foods and drinks had
himself drank a little too much and was incapable for work. He needed
to be shown his place in the house and Oppius Fabius asked me to do
it as it was I who had recommended the seller of slaves from whom he
was bought some days earlier."

Then my master asked:

"I know your reputation as a collector, maybe you would have a book
about metaphysics by Aristoteles in a Greek manuscript?"

Manius Florius seemed very surprised and finally managed to answer
that he probably had it in his library.

"Well as I haven't read it myself, maybe I could ask you for a favor
and if you could lend it to me, if you don't need it at the moment in
your library" my master asked and I was surprised to see him asking
it as I had not know that he was interested about Greek philosophy.

"Yes of course, let's go to the library."

So we went to the library and while walking to there my master
suddenly started to feel ill and hold his stomach with groan. He
seemed to be very sick and waived at me to give him a hand. I helped
him into the nearest room and Manius Florius looked very scared and
tried to suggest that we should take my master into the garden, where
the fresh air would heal him.

However my master seemed to feel a little better and was now sitting
in a chair and said:

"Please do not be frightened, my stomach sometimes does this. I just
need couple of moments to sit here. You could fetch that manuscript
from the library and come back here then, and I'm sure I will be
allright by that time."

So we left after asking one more time if everything was under
control. We found the manuscript quite easily from the library room.
It was evident that the many works of literature stored there were
not in frequent use, there was some dust on the scrolls and the
shelfs. So we went back to the room and found my master in remarkably
better condition. He apologised for his condition and said that old
men have all sorts of troubles.

Then he said:
"I noticed that in this room you have quite a collection of religious
medallions, you are a collector of them also?"

Manius Florius went so white from his face that I feared for a moment
that he also would have an attack to his health, but he managed to
answer with an almost normal voice:

"Yes, I am, I have maybe the finest collection in Rome, if I may say so."

"Then we are most fortunate, you know that there was an amulet found
from the hand of dead man?" Then my master described it and asked:
"Do you know in what cult it could belong in?"

"No, I have no idea" said Manius Florius shortly and continued "I'm a
very busy man and I will have a visitor shortly, maybe we could
continue this discussion later?"

"Yes by all means, but before we leave, only one small question: who
will inherit Aulus Flavius?"

Expression in the face of Manius Florius was almost funnily sad when
he answered "As Claudia is also dead, I'm the closest relative and
will inherit them both."


---- end of chapter 3 ----

Chapter 4 : Dinner

My master was very quiet when we returned home from the house of
Manius Florius. I was very certain that Manius Florius had done it,
but every time when I tried to speak with my master about the affair,
he was silent and then started to talk about the arrangements of the
dinner he would be giving that evening.

Streets were full of people and we had to stop to wait twice when
festival procession was almost literally rolling on the streets we
were walking by. The year that had passed since last Ludi Romani was
full of events that historians tell all over again, so I will not
waste parchment for that, but I just mention that people were almost
in too high spirits, everyone probably knew in their soul that during
the Autumn there would be something sinister happening.

We arrived to my masters house and first he ordered me to see that
the arrangements were going on well. And they were, it was third hour
after midday and almost everything was ready. Then my master visited
the baths as he used to do every day and gave me couple of hours free
time. I spent it by having something to eat and wondered some nearby
streets and finally by sitting in the shades of garden and never
letting the whole affair off my mind. The more I thought about it the
more I was convinced that it was Manius Florius who had killed Aulus
Flavius for his considerable fortune. After all, the lifestyle of
Manius Florius was resource consuming and he had had some not so
great luck with the politicians he had been supporting lately.

Finally my master came back and was in high spirits. He checked the
last preparations for the feast.

"I see from your expression that for you this affair is not as clear
as it is to me, but I assure you that tonight you will know the truth
of this very ominous chain of events. Now, my last instructions
before the guests arrive. I have asked for everyone from last nights
group to attend here with the promise that I will tell them who has
killed Aulus Flavius. They will all be exited, and one person
especially. Yes, Diodotus, our very evil killer is amongst the the
guests. When I expose him, I don't know what he will do, so when all
have arrived, you will fetch from the neighbouring houses a couple of
very strong fellows and very discreetly block all ways out from the
garden. Do not let our visitors to notice it. And when I have exposed
him, I want all of you walk slowly to the garden and get that man by
hands and lead him into the small storage room over there and to
guard him until we have decided what to do with him."

He was very serious and I started to believe again that we would be
able to solve the mystery. I nodded and said that I understood the
orders and he went for his rooms to prepare for the guests. When the
guests arrived I had chance of first time to see most of them.

First one to arrive was the widow of Marcus Clovius, Livia. She was
probably 35 years old and looked what she actually was, a wealth
widow who had no intention to wait too long before next marriage. She
was not that nervous, and for my little disappointment, not even too
sad. Then arrived Manius Florius and he was very nervous looking and
probably had had nothing to eat whole day as he almost directly
grabbed couple of fruits from the table. Then arrived Postumus
Calventius Velius and his wife Domitia and I had to agree with my
master that Domitia was indeed of remarkable beauty. Last to arrive
were Publius Laetonius and Oppius Fabius who came together.

When they had arrived I followed my masters orders and gathered three
strong men from neighbouring houses with explanation for their owners
that my master needs their help in the preparations of some garden
festivities for carrying heavy benches into right places. We went
into our positions and made sure that the guests didn't notice us.
Then I had the privilege to witness for the first time the singular
gift my master had for solving mysteries.

"Now that we have all had something to eat I think we should move
into the real purpose of this little feast I arranged for you" my
master started and something in his voice got everyone to give their
undisturbed attention.

"You all are aware of the tragedy that happened last night, I don't
need to refresh these horrible things into your mind. You all are
also aware that early this morning lady Claudia has passed away after
snake bit her. These two deaths are linked to each other in most
peculiar manner."

"At first one might think that it was lady Claudia who killed Aulus
Flavius as they had have some sort of argument in the day before the
fateful dinner. It would have been possible for her to return the
short distance from her house to the house of Oppius Fabius Rusticus
and claim that she had been in her house and maybe even get some
slave of hers to say also so. But why then she would die? By
accident? Would it be probable that her knowing the story of which is
attached to her house she would be so careless that let a snake bit
her?"

"But if she repented her horrible deed?" suggested Manius Florius
with trembling voice.

"That could be possible, but then she would perhaps selected more
certain way of dying that letting snake bit herself, a dagger or
strong poison" my master answred and continued: "And it is besides
very clear that it was man who killed Aulus Flavius, it is no easy
thing to stab a health man with just one stroke to death. No woman
could have that strenght."

"But before letting to know the name of killer let us look some
peculiar things linked to the death of Aulus Flavius. First of all,
there was a religious amulet in his hand, but still he was man of
reputation of having no liking of foreign cults and like any wise man
he sticked in the traditional Roman ways. So why he had that amulet
in his hand? There is a possibility that it has nothing to do with
the murder, but that is not very likely. Instead it is very possible
and likely that it tells us who the murderer is."

"First of all the murderer is a man of some wealth as otherwise he
could not afford such expensive foreign amulet. Secondly he is a man
who had a reason to kill Aulus Flavius. What this reason would be?
Wealth? It is of no secret that inheritor of Aulus Flavius would be
his niece, Claudia, but as we noted Claudia could not be the killer.
You Manius Florius will inherit both Claudia and Aulus Flavius!" my
master looked to Manius Florius who was devastated in horror and
could not speak before my master continued: "But still it was not you
who killed Aulus Flavius, it would take a strong man to do it and you
have probably not be fit for such deed for years, and you could not
know that Claudia would die also."

The relief in the face of Manius Florius was evident and he almost
started to cry but concealed that by lifting a cup of wine with hands
trembling. His soul had suffered for unhealthy life and exitements of
recent political fights so much that he had trouble in controlling
himself. My master looked him with contempt in his eyes and continued
his monologue for audience who listened very carefully his every word.

"So we are in the beginning again. But still I will give you the name
of the killer, who is almost genius in his evil deeds. Not only he
had managed to calculate the right moment for his horrible deed but
also he find a way to do it which is most cruel costing one a life of
an innocent lady Claudia also."

"This man was invited to the dinner and he took care to arrange
himself into the company of the man he was planned to murder, yes
Postumus Calventius Velius, you killed Aulus Flavius and you can be
also accused to be the killer of poor lady Claudia!" everyone were
frosen into their seats.

Then Postumus Calventius said with careless voice: "What a poor end
for such beautiful day, old man you have mistaken, you don't remember
that I was at home when the murder happened?"

"Ah, you are a good actor, but instead of using your talent for good
you have used for evil. I will tell you how you did your horrible
deed" my master said with angry face and waived me and my men to step
into the garden "And while I tell, these four fine men will make sure
that you will not try to do anything stupid."

"First of all, you, as many of your profession, have travelled quite
a lot also in the eastern parts of our empire. I think that it was in
one of these travels that you have become acquinted with the
mysterious religion. I noticed that you have a painting in your house
of similar kind of Sun that was in the medallion. I think that it was
your amulet that the dead man took and which you for some reason did
not manage to get out of his hand as you were so hurry. I suspect
that it was Manius Florius with drunken servant who were disrupting
your evil work when they entered to the room."

Postumus started to look maybe a little nervous but didn't say
anything, just took a sip of wine from his cup and said dryly:
"Please continue with your tale."

"And that I will do! You were hiding behind the curtain while Manius
Florius were giving a lesson for the new servant. And this was your
second mistake because it took too much time for you to do everything
and you were at your home only little earlier than your wife was even
tough you would have had to be there much earlier."

"But let us take a look at the relationship you had with lady
Claudia. You were trying to trick her to marry you, but old Aulus
Flavius got to know your intentions and was most rejecting towards
the idea. As often in these cases, Claudia got more convinced that
you were right and Aulus Flavius was wrong as she was as rebellish as
most women of her age. She was ready to marry you, but for you she
would be worth of nothing unless she would inherit Aulus Flavius.
Your first intention had been to get into the popularity of Aulus
Flavius, marry his niece and then murder him and get the wealth of
his. But this plan was ruined because old Aulus Flavius was not such
foolish modern man like Oppius Fabius to allow himself to be in the
dealings with an actor. So you were in trouble, how to revenge to
Aulus Flavius and get rid of Claudia?"

"You introduced Claudia into the mysterious religion and got her
convinced that you were about to run away with her. You got her into
argument with Aulus Flavius over the religion and your intentions of
marrying her. Then finally last night you told her that you would not
marry her and not even run away with her when you took her to her
house from the feast. Probably you managed to remind her about the
snakes in the garden and so shocked and hysterical she was that she
let a snake bit herself during the long hours of night as you had
calculated."

"Then you returned to the house of Oppius Fabius, found Aulus Flavius
and got him into the room where you had had the dinner, murdered him,
took some of his costume, showed yourself to the Secundus Varius Maro
and excused yourself before he managed to start conversation with you
which would have exposed your disguise. You returned the costume of
Aulus Flavius and was just about leaving when you were interrupted by
Manius Florius and drunken servant. Then you went into home as fast
as you could" my master finished his account and all the others were
stupified except Postumus Calventius who just said with assurance:

"Old man, you only have those theories, no proofs. Now if you will
excuse me, I feel this gathering has got a foul atmosphere and I have
to leave."

"Diodotus, stop him!"

I did as my master ordered altough I also thought that he had no evidence.

"I have evidence and it was provided someone who loves you Postumus
Calventius, your wife!"

Domitia was looking with disbelief to my master and could not say anything.

"Yes lady Domitia, when I visited you earlier today you yourself
provided me with the evidence. You knew that your husband was the
murderer because you had seen him leaving from the room after Manius
Florius and that poor servant. When you heard about the murder you
knew that it could have not been anyone else. When I visited your
house today you stopped me when I was saying goodbyes and clumsily
tried to direct my suspicions to that creature" my master waived in
the direction of Manius Florius.

Lady Domitia lost her self control and started to cry and said: "Yes".

Now Postumus Calventius rose up and started to shout to his wife by
using very foul language. My master instructed me and the three other
men to take Postumus Calventius and to put him into the small storage
room.

"And now lady Domitia, perhaps you could explain why you wanted to
protect your husband, it was not for love, was it?" my masters voice
was neutral.

"No, it wasn't, I have known for long time that he is not loyal to
me, but before our marriage he wanted to make a contract with my poor
father that in the case of divorce he does not have to give me
anything he ownes, only my dowry. My father was a poor man and he had
no other choice than to accept. My husband had probably know before
our marriage that it would not last forever, and soon enough I also
knew it. But he was making fortunes in his profession and I didn't
want to abandon my otherwise pleasant life. Now, I will have to and
perhaps that is for good."

"Lady Domitia, a woman like yourself will probably manage to survive
very well in this world of ours!" my masters voice was almost
admiring.


Here is a point where I will end my first story about the adventures
I had with my master. I just shortly note that Postumus recieved
capital punishment for his dreadful deeds. Those deeds were somehow
fitting to the grim atmosphere of our eternal city in those turbulent
times when many honest men also lost their lives.

---- end of chapter 4 ----


--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13528 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
What did the N stand for?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> A number of months ago some posted to the ML that they were in the
process of researching a "Citizenship ring that would have a SPQNR on
the face. We debated the "N" as not being appropriate and the debate
petered out. I do not remember who posted on the Ring but they even
had a web site you could go to and see the type of ring they were
talking about.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: raymond fuentes
> To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com ; SPQR
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:39 PM
> Subject: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
> We have tossed the idea around...do we or don't we
get rings. Who do we propose this to, a comitia perhaps? Does anyone
at least agree that it is a good idea?
> Marcvs
Flavivs Fides
> Eager Roman
Citizen with naked fingers.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13529 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@...> writes:

> What did the N stand for?

Nova.

SPQNR would be Senatus PopulusQue Nova Roma

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13530 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Absentia
Anche tu.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I inform you that I'll be absent from tomorrow 31th July to 18th
> August.
>
> From tomorrow to 3rd I'll be in Bologna for the Nova Roman Meeting
> where I hope to meet sevral nova romans.
> After I'll go in Sardinia, a very beautiful island, and at the
> border-line of Austria, in the gallic land.
>
> In this period I think to not able to surf in Internet. Illustrus
> Quaestor and Legatus Manius Constantinus Serapio will be my
Vicarius
> and spokesman for the Office of Propraetor Provinciae Italiae and
> Curulis Aedilis. He will be helped by Legatus Marcus IUlius
> Perusianus.
>
> I wish you all quiet and relaxing holidays!
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Senior Aedilis Curulis
> Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13531 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Don't you just hate when we do things like that. If it ain't broke,
don't fix it, lol.
It is an interesting tree and fruit.
I was thinking to replace my poor deceased fig tree with it.
Have always had a fig tree groowing in the yard since I can
remember. I love to just walk over, pick a fruit and eat it, great
satisfaction in that as in my vegetable and herb garden and I
naturally share with my neighbors for the Harvest Festival.
Gooseberries however are not sweet like figs and make ones face
pucker up like a sour starburst commercial, lol.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > Found it, very cool.
> > If anyone wants to see some very interesting
> > pictures of this tree:
> >
>
http://www.calflora.net/bloomingplants/fuchsiafloweredgooseberry.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> Too bad my machine only accepts the 16 color map
> now. GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!! All the colors worked fine
> before our systems administrator installed our new
> operating system.
>
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13532 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Welcome back.
Best wishes for her speedy recovery.
May you and your wife sleep peacfully.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Flavius Fides writes:
>
> > Marinvs, welcome back! I hope all is well or at least as well as
it can
> > be.
>
> My mother-in-law is out of the hospital and back in her "assisted
> living" apartment. She's in about as good a shape as she's going
> to get, all things considered.
>
> > As for our prior discussion, I have not yet recieved my order.
>
> I shall discuss the matter with you further off-list.
>
> > As for the rings, I truly believe this is a great
> > step! I hope it does not founder.
>
> My personal feeling is that the ring ought not to be a citizenship
> token, but it should be something that any Nova Roman citizen may
> obtain for a reasonable price should they want one. I like the
> idea of a stainless steel ring, as mentioned elsewhere.
>
> > As always, it is good to hear from you. Ave!
>
> My pleasure Marcus Flavius.
>
> Vale,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13533 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Stainless steel works for me.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Iron has snob appeal,
> Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...>
> wrote:
> > Marcus Flavius Fides writes:
> >
> > > Marinvs, welcome back! I hope all is well or at least as well
as
> it can
> > > be.
> >
> > My mother-in-law is out of the hospital and back in her "assisted
> > living" apartment. She's in about as good a shape as she's going
> > to get, all things considered.
> >
> > > As for our prior discussion, I have not yet recieved my order.
> >
> > I shall discuss the matter with you further off-list.
> >
> > > As for the rings, I truly believe this is a great
> > > step! I hope it does not founder.
> >
> > My personal feeling is that the ring ought not to be a
citizenship
> > token, but it should be something that any Nova Roman citizen may
> > obtain for a reasonable price should they want one. I like the
> > idea of a stainless steel ring, as mentioned elsewhere.
> >
> > > As always, it is good to hear from you. Ave!
> >
> > My pleasure Marcus Flavius.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13534 From: Jim Lancaster Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Ave Marci Ambrosi:

It's a California native, Ribes speciosum ; a picture of the tiny flowers
(and other varieties) is available through the Calif Native Plant Society:

http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/img_query?special=calflora&where-taxon=R
ibes+speciosum&where-anno=1

http://www.northcoast.com/~cnps/cgi-bin/test/bridge.cgi/Search?search=gooseb
erry&first=20

Vale,

Cn. Iulius Strabo

>A fuscia flowering gooseberry? I never heard of it but it sounds
awsome! Would love to see a picture. Only thing I know of
gooseberries is that they are sour/bitter as hell but if you add
sugar................... they become a scrumptous dessert. I was
tempted to use them to make a gooseberry wine for next harvest
festival but made an red apple, green apple and peach, apricot
chablis blend - can't wait for a taste test in a few months.<
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13535 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
DUH!
Can't believe I didn't see that one coming.
Personally, I prefer SPQR, no N.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
>
> > What did the N stand for?
>
> Nova.
>
> SPQNR would be Senatus PopulusQue Nova Roma
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13536 From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Gooseberries
Thanks Strabo,
I did find a link I posted also. Cool tree and it does well in cold
zones so should winter nicely here on the Island.
Do you like the fruit or have it for aesthetic purposes?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@f...>
wrote:
> Ave Marci Ambrosi:
>
> It's a California native, Ribes speciosum ; a picture of the tiny
flowers
> (and other varieties) is available through the Calif Native Plant
Society:
>
> http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/img_query?
special=calflora&where-taxon=R
> ibes+speciosum&where-anno=1
>
> http://www.northcoast.com/~cnps/cgi-bin/test/bridge.cgi/Search?
search=gooseb
> erry&first=20
>
> Vale,
>
> Cn. Iulius Strabo
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13537 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
I would assume 'NOVA'

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@...> wrote:What did the N stand for?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> A number of months ago some posted to the ML that they were in the
process of researching a "Citizenship ring that would have a SPQNR on
the face. We debated the "N" as not being appropriate and the debate
petered out. I do not remember who posted on the Ring but they even
had a web site you could go to and see the type of ring they were
talking about.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: raymond fuentes
> To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com ; SPQR
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:39 PM
> Subject: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
> We have tossed the idea around...do we or don't we
get rings. Who do we propose this to, a comitia perhaps? Does anyone
at least agree that it is a good idea?
> Marcvs
Flavivs Fides
> Eager Roman
Citizen with naked fingers.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> mediatlanticaprovincia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13538 From: rory12001 Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: absentia & chapters 3 and 4
Salve Saturnine;
as a fellow dectective writer (my manuscript is inching its way
through the agents) may I say how much I am enjoying your story.
Here is one professional tip for new writers, which I received;
you need more description; what did the cook look like? was he
fat, thin, Syrian, sweaty. How did the street smell, how was the
house decorated, murals, cool marble floors, bad taste. What was the
cook making? All these little things add atmosphere to your story &
make it come alive in the reader's mind.
Can't wait for the next installments! Have a wonderful time in
Bononia, I'll be there next year.
Vale, Pomponia Fabia Vera Attica ( the former Urania from your
course; gens change=name change)


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Curius Saturninus
<c.curius@w...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> here are the chapters 3 and 4.
>
> Early tomorrow morning I will start my travel to Bologna where I
will
> stay 31st-4th in the Nova Roma Rally. From there I will continue to
> the eternal city itself and spend rest of my holidays there, that
is
> till 24th of August. So I will be very absent from mailing lists
for
> some time, but private mails I will probably be able to read once
per
> 1-2 days intervals.
>
> Valete,
>
>
> ----
>
> something malevolent in the air, people were somehow restless and
> nervous. I tried to find more quiet streets in order to be able to
> walk faster.
>
> My first destination was the house of Secundus Varius Maro. I asked
> from the servant if his master was in the house, but he was not. I
> said that I had an urgent message to deliver from my master to him
> and asked if the servant knew when his master was about to return.
> The servant said that he did not know, but he could give the
message
> to his master.
>
> "I'm sorry but my orders are to give this message to him
personally,
> I shall have to wait for him then." I said.
>
> The servant was not too happy feeling that he wasn't trusted, one
of
> those servants who thought themselves to be more valuable than they
> really were. I was guided through servants entrance into the small
> waiting room a door in which gave a view to the garden. The servant
> looked at me suspiciously, but finally left me alone in the room to
> wait his master and walked away probably trying to look busier than
> he really was. I waited for some time and then rose up, apparently
to
> strech my legs and arms a little, but in reality I looked into the
> garden and noticed that there was no-one there. Casually walking,
but
> with some exitement, I left from the waiting room and on every step
> that I took I waited for someone to shout and ask where I was
> thinking to go. But such disruption never materialised and I
reached
> my goal, a kitchen where the cook was preparing his little kingdom
> for the evening meal. He looked at me surprised.
>
> "Who are you and what are you doing here?"
>
> I shortly explained that I was messenger who was supposed to bring
an
> important message to his master who was absent at the moment. To
> assure him I showed parchment scroll which I took from my purse. He
> believed me but still looked at me with a question in his eyes.
>
> "While I was waiting there in the waiting room I noticed that I was
> getting thirsty. I wonder if you could give me some water?" I asked
> as casually as I could.
>
> "Well of course."
>
> He went for a large amphora that was in the dark corner of the
> kitchen room. He took a ceramic cup from the shelf on the wall and
> filled it. He gave the cup to me and I drank it, this time being
> really thirsty as my mouth felt dry from exitement.
>
> "Thank you, I needed that. So hot in this time of year."
>
> "Yes it has been, and according to my master, it will get hotter"
he
> said with peculiar smile.
>
> "How could he know such a thing?"
>
> "He does not mean the weather, but as my master is an important
man,
> he knows some important people and, don't tell this to anyone else,
> there will be some, hmm, turbulence in the politics before the next
> Idus." he said with an expression that showed he had just been
> waiting for someone new to gossip with.
>
> I asked some questions to encourage him to go on with the rumours
and
> listened eagerly, knowing I would be interested. Then after small
> pause in the discussion I casually said:
>
> "I heard that your master was involved in something very singular
last night"
>
> He looked very surprised and asked: "How do you know that?"
>
> "My master is also an important man who'se recieving informations
> from many directions" I answered with a serious face.
>
> He told about the same story I had heard from my master in the
early
> morning, but with much more colourful expressions.
>
> "Did your master know Aulus Flavius well?" I asked.
>
> "Well, no, not well, they had met couple of times..." his sentence
> was not to be finished because the master servant had silently come
> to the kitchen door.
>
> "Ah, gossiping once again! And you, didn't I show you the waiting
room?"
>
> "Yes, but I was thirsty and I need to continue my trip, here is the
> message, make sure that your master recieves it at once when he
comes
> back. And now, please show me to the door!"
>
> He showed me out, and while I was walking round the corner I
> wondered, what his master would say recieving an empty scroll of
> parchment.
>
> I continued my way to the scene of the unfortunate tragedy of this
> morning. The house of Claudia was not very far from the house of
> Oppius Fabius. It was an old house with a very large garden. I
> presented myself to the sad looking servant who opened the door and
> told him that I had just arrived to Rome from Ostia and that I had
an
> message to lady Claudia from her friend that lived in Ostia. The
> servant looked at me and showed me in without saying anything, and
I
> was guided to the premises of Claudias secratary. He told me the
news
> and I tried to look like that it was big surprise to me. I
expressed
> my condolences and said that in that case my message was pointless,
> as it was invitation for a visit that would never happen now.
>
> Now, when the formalities were behind, I switched into a more
> leisurely style of speech and asked:
>
> "You said that it was snake that bit her? How is that possible, we
> are in a city!"
>
> "Perhaps you don't know that this house is famous for its large
> garden that has had snakes for ages. No one knows why, but they
like
> to live here."
>
> I continued the conversation for a little time, and after it I left
> the house, and after a couple of blocks walk I knocked on the
> servants door of the house of Oppius Fabius Rusticus.
>
> "I'm Diodotus, in the service of Quintus Valerius Italicus and I'm
> here to acquire information about the tragic chain of events of
last
> night. My master has recieved an order to investigate this by the
> command of Publius Laetonius Crispus who is, I believe, a close
> associate of the master of this house" I answered to the servants
> request.
>
> He looked at me for some time and then nodded with a tired
expression
> and let me in to the house. He asked me what I would like to do and
> his voice had some amount of disbelief in my skills. Personally I
> felt that I had done my duties well this far today, so I took a
more
> commanding expression and asked to be lead into the room where the
> body had been found.
>
> Whatever I had been expecting to see, I was disappointed. The room
> looked exactly like any other room in any other house. It was a
small
> room with some painted pictures on the walls and a floor decorated
> with mosaique and skillful usage of different couloured floor
stones.
> There were small table and one chair. Servant told that last night
> during the dinner there had been couches and a larger table onto
> which the food was layed. There was also a small window to the
> another corridor and a door opened to the corridor that lead into
> garden in a way that from garden no-one could see into the room.
>
> The servant was standing by the door while I looked inside the room
> and as I didn't know what else to do I walked carefully in the room
> and tried to memorise every detail of it as my master had told me
to
> do. After doing this for some time I decided that it was time to
fill
> out the second order of my master and ask from the servant a
question:
>
> "As a long time servant of Oppius Fabius you probably know well his
> closest circles. Now, what I have understood is that late Aulus
> Flavius was not very religious man, was he? I mean, he was not the
> type who would fall into new foreign religions?"
>
> The servant looked at me cautiously as if thinking about how much
> information he could give to me, but apparently decided that this
> information was not harmful to the reputation of his master nor to
> the dead man. "Certainly not, he was most patriotic and
conservative.
> Actually he passionately opposed any new religions saying 'Gods
have
> let us this far, why should we abandon them?'" answered the servant
> with some irritation in his voice.
>
> "Then it is not known why he had the amulet in his hand when he
died?"
>
> "That is absolutely a mystery for everyone" servant said with
> disappointed voice and I started even question myself the sanity of
> the orders my master had given me as it was obvious that the amulet
> unexplainable mystery.
>
> I left from the house and noticed that the sun had almost reached
its
> highest position in the sky. I was beginning to feel tired and
walked
> quite slowly to the house of Manius Florius Castus where I was
> supposed to meet my master.
>
> He was standing there and talking to some men who probably belonged
> to his large group of old friends and customers. I had to wait for
> some time while he was finishing his discussion. Finally he managed
> to get himself free of it and came to me.
>
> "It seems that you have had tiresome forenoon" he said with a smile.
>
> "I have done everything you told me to do, but I have to say that
we
> are still a long way from solving this mystery" I said with tired
> voice.
>
> "Just the opposite, we are very near of it, if my suspicions are
> correct" he answered again with a smile. "But, by all means, let us
> enjoy something to eat and drink and while doing it you can give me
> an account about the information you have gathered. I think I saw a
> small shop there, outside the temple."
>
> So we walked to the nearby temple and there was some kind of small
> shop from which we bought some figs and small amphora of watered
wine
> and we sat into the shade of the temple to consume them. While
eating
> I summarised my achievements to him and in some way it seemed to be
> amusing him, as he smiled all the more while I was telling my
> experiences to him. When I reached the part of my last mission in
the
> house of Oppius Fabius, he was almost laughing.
>
> "I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't see anything funny
> with my futile journey this morning" I said with disappointed voice.
>
> "No, by all means, your journey maybe has been less eventful than
> that of Aeneas, but nevertheless it has been very succesful. Now,
let
> me tell you about my morning which consisted of only a visit to the
> house of Postumus Calventius Velius. I'm sure that after I finish
you
> will agree that our mystery is almost solved" he said with a more
> serious face.
>
> "But one question first Diodotus, was there in the room where the
> body was found a small covert part in the wall which was shielded
by
> curtains?" he asked with his most serious voice.
>
> "Oh, well, I think there is, yes I'm sure there is such. It
contained
> a some kind of statue there" I answered surprised.
>
> "As I said, almost everything is now solved, I will let you know
what
> I have discovered!" said my master.
>
> "After you had left I headed into the Aventinus hill and I didn't
> have to search too long to find the house of Postumus Calventius.
He
> himself was not of course present, but his wife was. She is a
> remarkably beautiful woman, in that little vulgar way the women of
> her class are often, even though they rise into a higher standing
in
> the society. She was also very stressed about the horrible news she
> had heard in the morning. She was not, however, able to add
anything
> especially new to the facts we know from your journey and from the
> account of Publius Laetonius. Only when I was leaving she remarked
> that she had heard Manius Florius Castus' argue loudly in the room
> where the body was found. She didn't know with whom he had argued,
as
> the other voice had been quieter. She didn't know if the voice
> belonged to Aulus Flavius or someone else."
>
> I looked into my master and said: "It is obvious then that he was
> arguing with Aulus Flavius!"
>
> "Well, certainly you could hold that as one of most obvious
premises
> we can make, but I think we need to ask from Manius Florius himself
> about that. Let's go!" my master rose and we headed into the house
of
> Manius Florius. I was not too sure how fruitful it would be, as if
he
> was the murderer, he would not let us know.
>
> "I wonder if he is in the house now" I remarked to my master when
we
> approached the door.
>
> "I think he is, I have heard that he is not very sociable and likes
> to keep inside his house during the festivals."
>
> It was as my master had said. We were shown into his study. My
master
> didn't need to present himself as it seemed that Manius Florius
knew
> him already. My master explained that the purpose of our visit was
to
> make enquiries about the events of last night with the permission
of
> Publius Laetonius. That was all that was needed to make Manius
> Florius nervous. He seemed to be the type who gets nervous easily
and
> his fat head became even whiter and swettier than it had been when
we
> walked into the room.
>
> My master asked him some questions and he told about the same facts
> we already knew. My master did not express that he already knew
them.
>
> "You have been heard to argue with a loud voice with someone during
> the evening, can you tell with whom you argued and what it was
> about?" my master asked with a casual voice.
>
> Manius Florius looked my master very suspiciously and said: "One of
> the servants who was supposed to waiter the foods and drinks had
> himself drank a little too much and was incapable for work. He
needed
> to be shown his place in the house and Oppius Fabius asked me to do
> it as it was I who had recommended the seller of slaves from whom
he
> was bought some days earlier."
>
> Then my master asked:
>
> "I know your reputation as a collector, maybe you would have a book
> about metaphysics by Aristoteles in a Greek manuscript?"
>
> Manius Florius seemed very surprised and finally managed to answer
> that he probably had it in his library.
>
> "Well as I haven't read it myself, maybe I could ask you for a
favor
> and if you could lend it to me, if you don't need it at the moment
in
> your library" my master asked and I was surprised to see him asking
> it as I had not know that he was interested about Greek philosophy.
>
> "Yes of course, let's go to the library."
>
> So we went to the library and while walking to there my master
> suddenly started to feel ill and hold his stomach with groan. He
> seemed to be very sick and waived at me to give him a hand. I
helped
> him into the nearest room and Manius Florius looked very scared and
> tried to suggest that we should take my master into the garden,
where
> the fresh air would heal him.
>
> However my master seemed to feel a little better and was now
sitting
> in a chair and said:
>
> "Please do not be frightened, my stomach sometimes does this. I
just
> need couple of moments to sit here. You could fetch that manuscript
> from the library and come back here then, and I'm sure I will be
> allright by that time."
>
> So we left after asking one more time if everything was under
> control. We found the manuscript quite easily from the library
room.
> It was evident that the many works of literature stored there were
> not in frequent use, there was some dust on the scrolls and the
> shelfs. So we went back to the room and found my master in
remarkably
> better condition. He apologised for his condition and said that old
> men have all sorts of troubles.
>
> Then he said:
> "I noticed that in this room you have quite a collection of
religious
> medallions, you are a collector of them also?"
>
> Manius Florius went so white from his face that I feared for a
moment
> that he also would have an attack to his health, but he managed to
> answer with an almost normal voice:
>
> "Yes, I am, I have maybe the finest collection in Rome, if I may
say so."
>
> "Then we are most fortunate, you know that there was an amulet
found
> from the hand of dead man?" Then my master described it and asked:
> "Do you know in what cult it could belong in?"
>
> "No, I have no idea" said Manius Florius shortly and continued "I'm
a
> very busy man and I will have a visitor shortly, maybe we could
> continue this discussion later?"
>
> "Yes by all means, but before we leave, only one small question:
who
> will inherit Aulus Flavius?"
>
> Expression in the face of Manius Florius was almost funnily sad
when
> he answered "As Claudia is also dead, I'm the closest relative and
> will inherit them both."
>
>
> ---- end of chapter 3 ----
>
> Chapter 4 : Dinner
>
> My master was very quiet when we returned home from the house of
> Manius Florius. I was very certain that Manius Florius had done it,
> but every time when I tried to speak with my master about the
affair,
> he was silent and then started to talk about the arrangements of
the
> dinner he would be giving that evening.
>
> Streets were full of people and we had to stop to wait twice when
> festival procession was almost literally rolling on the streets we
> were walking by. The year that had passed since last Ludi Romani
was
> full of events that historians tell all over again, so I will not
> waste parchment for that, but I just mention that people were
almost
> in too high spirits, everyone probably knew in their soul that
during
> the Autumn there would be something sinister happening.
>
> We arrived to my masters house and first he ordered me to see that
> the arrangements were going on well. And they were, it was third
hour
> after midday and almost everything was ready. Then my master
visited
> the baths as he used to do every day and gave me couple of hours
free
> time. I spent it by having something to eat and wondered some
nearby
> streets and finally by sitting in the shades of garden and never
> letting the whole affair off my mind. The more I thought about it
the
> more I was convinced that it was Manius Florius who had killed
Aulus
> Flavius for his considerable fortune. After all, the lifestyle of
> Manius Florius was resource consuming and he had had some not so
> great luck with the politicians he had been supporting lately.
>
> Finally my master came back and was in high spirits. He checked the
> last preparations for the feast.
>
> "I see from your expression that for you this affair is not as
clear
> as it is to me, but I assure you that tonight you will know the
truth
> of this very ominous chain of events. Now, my last instructions
> before the guests arrive. I have asked for everyone from last
nights
> group to attend here with the promise that I will tell them who has
> killed Aulus Flavius. They will all be exited, and one person
> especially. Yes, Diodotus, our very evil killer is amongst the the
> guests. When I expose him, I don't know what he will do, so when
all
> have arrived, you will fetch from the neighbouring houses a couple
of
> very strong fellows and very discreetly block all ways out from the
> garden. Do not let our visitors to notice it. And when I have
exposed
> him, I want all of you walk slowly to the garden and get that man
by
> hands and lead him into the small storage room over there and to
> guard him until we have decided what to do with him."
>
> He was very serious and I started to believe again that we would be
> able to solve the mystery. I nodded and said that I understood the
> orders and he went for his rooms to prepare for the guests. When
the
> guests arrived I had chance of first time to see most of them.
>
> First one to arrive was the widow of Marcus Clovius, Livia. She was
> probably 35 years old and looked what she actually was, a wealth
> widow who had no intention to wait too long before next marriage.
She
> was not that nervous, and for my little disappointment, not even
too
> sad. Then arrived Manius Florius and he was very nervous looking
and
> probably had had nothing to eat whole day as he almost directly
> grabbed couple of fruits from the table. Then arrived Postumus
> Calventius Velius and his wife Domitia and I had to agree with my
> master that Domitia was indeed of remarkable beauty. Last to arrive
> were Publius Laetonius and Oppius Fabius who came together.
>
> When they had arrived I followed my masters orders and gathered
three
> strong men from neighbouring houses with explanation for their
owners
> that my master needs their help in the preparations of some garden
> festivities for carrying heavy benches into right places. We went
> into our positions and made sure that the guests didn't notice us.
> Then I had the privilege to witness for the first time the singular
> gift my master had for solving mysteries.
>
> "Now that we have all had something to eat I think we should move
> into the real purpose of this little feast I arranged for you" my
> master started and something in his voice got everyone to give
their
> undisturbed attention.
>
> "You all are aware of the tragedy that happened last night, I don't
> need to refresh these horrible things into your mind. You all are
> also aware that early this morning lady Claudia has passed away
after
> snake bit her. These two deaths are linked to each other in most
> peculiar manner."
>
> "At first one might think that it was lady Claudia who killed Aulus
> Flavius as they had have some sort of argument in the day before
the
> fateful dinner. It would have been possible for her to return the
> short distance from her house to the house of Oppius Fabius
Rusticus
> and claim that she had been in her house and maybe even get some
> slave of hers to say also so. But why then she would die? By
> accident? Would it be probable that her knowing the story of which
is
> attached to her house she would be so careless that let a snake bit
> her?"
>
> "But if she repented her horrible deed?" suggested Manius Florius
> with trembling voice.
>
> "That could be possible, but then she would perhaps selected more
> certain way of dying that letting snake bit herself, a dagger or
> strong poison" my master answred and continued: "And it is besides
> very clear that it was man who killed Aulus Flavius, it is no easy
> thing to stab a health man with just one stroke to death. No woman
> could have that strenght."
>
> "But before letting to know the name of killer let us look some
> peculiar things linked to the death of Aulus Flavius. First of all,
> there was a religious amulet in his hand, but still he was man of
> reputation of having no liking of foreign cults and like any wise
man
> he sticked in the traditional Roman ways. So why he had that amulet
> in his hand? There is a possibility that it has nothing to do with
> the murder, but that is not very likely. Instead it is very
possible
> and likely that it tells us who the murderer is."
>
> "First of all the murderer is a man of some wealth as otherwise he
> could not afford such expensive foreign amulet. Secondly he is a
man
> who had a reason to kill Aulus Flavius. What this reason would be?
> Wealth? It is of no secret that inheritor of Aulus Flavius would be
> his niece, Claudia, but as we noted Claudia could not be the
killer.
> You Manius Florius will inherit both Claudia and Aulus Flavius!" my
> master looked to Manius Florius who was devastated in horror and
> could not speak before my master continued: "But still it was not
you
> who killed Aulus Flavius, it would take a strong man to do it and
you
> have probably not be fit for such deed for years, and you could not
> know that Claudia would die also."
>
> The relief in the face of Manius Florius was evident and he almost
> started to cry but concealed that by lifting a cup of wine with
hands
> trembling. His soul had suffered for unhealthy life and exitements
of
> recent political fights so much that he had trouble in controlling
> himself. My master looked him with contempt in his eyes and
continued
> his monologue for audience who listened very carefully his every
word.
>
> "So we are in the beginning again. But still I will give you the
name
> of the killer, who is almost genius in his evil deeds. Not only he
> had managed to calculate the right moment for his horrible deed but
> also he find a way to do it which is most cruel costing one a life
of
> an innocent lady Claudia also."
>
> "This man was invited to the dinner and he took care to arrange
> himself into the company of the man he was planned to murder, yes
> Postumus Calventius Velius, you killed Aulus Flavius and you can be
> also accused to be the killer of poor lady Claudia!" everyone were
> frosen into their seats.
>
> Then Postumus Calventius said with careless voice: "What a poor end
> for such beautiful day, old man you have mistaken, you don't
remember
> that I was at home when the murder happened?"
>
> "Ah, you are a good actor, but instead of using your talent for
good
> you have used for evil. I will tell you how you did your horrible
> deed" my master said with angry face and waived me and my men to
step
> into the garden "And while I tell, these four fine men will make
sure
> that you will not try to do anything stupid."
>
> "First of all, you, as many of your profession, have travelled
quite
> a lot also in the eastern parts of our empire. I think that it was
in
> one of these travels that you have become acquinted with the
> mysterious religion. I noticed that you have a painting in your
house
> of similar kind of Sun that was in the medallion. I think that it
was
> your amulet that the dead man took and which you for some reason
did
> not manage to get out of his hand as you were so hurry. I suspect
> that it was Manius Florius with drunken servant who were disrupting
> your evil work when they entered to the room."
>
> Postumus started to look maybe a little nervous but didn't say
> anything, just took a sip of wine from his cup and said dryly:
> "Please continue with your tale."
>
> "And that I will do! You were hiding behind the curtain while
Manius
> Florius were giving a lesson for the new servant. And this was your
> second mistake because it took too much time for you to do
everything
> and you were at your home only little earlier than your wife was
even
> tough you would have had to be there much earlier."
>
> "But let us take a look at the relationship you had with lady
> Claudia. You were trying to trick her to marry you, but old Aulus
> Flavius got to know your intentions and was most rejecting towards
> the idea. As often in these cases, Claudia got more convinced that
> you were right and Aulus Flavius was wrong as she was as rebellish
as
> most women of her age. She was ready to marry you, but for you she
> would be worth of nothing unless she would inherit Aulus Flavius.
> Your first intention had been to get into the popularity of Aulus
> Flavius, marry his niece and then murder him and get the wealth of
> his. But this plan was ruined because old Aulus Flavius was not
such
> foolish modern man like Oppius Fabius to allow himself to be in the
> dealings with an actor. So you were in trouble, how to revenge to
> Aulus Flavius and get rid of Claudia?"
>
> "You introduced Claudia into the mysterious religion and got her
> convinced that you were about to run away with her. You got her
into
> argument with Aulus Flavius over the religion and your intentions
of
> marrying her. Then finally last night you told her that you would
not
> marry her and not even run away with her when you took her to her
> house from the feast. Probably you managed to remind her about the
> snakes in the garden and so shocked and hysterical she was that she
> let a snake bit herself during the long hours of night as you had
> calculated."
>
> "Then you returned to the house of Oppius Fabius, found Aulus
Flavius
> and got him into the room where you had had the dinner, murdered
him,
> took some of his costume, showed yourself to the Secundus Varius
Maro
> and excused yourself before he managed to start conversation with
you
> which would have exposed your disguise. You returned the costume of
> Aulus Flavius and was just about leaving when you were interrupted
by
> Manius Florius and drunken servant. Then you went into home as fast
> as you could" my master finished his account and all the others
were
> stupified except Postumus Calventius who just said with assurance:
>
> "Old man, you only have those theories, no proofs. Now if you will
> excuse me, I feel this gathering has got a foul atmosphere and I
have
> to leave."
>
> "Diodotus, stop him!"
>
> I did as my master ordered altough I also thought that he had no
evidence.
>
> "I have evidence and it was provided someone who loves you Postumus
> Calventius, your wife!"
>
> Domitia was looking with disbelief to my master and could not say
anything.
>
> "Yes lady Domitia, when I visited you earlier today you yourself
> provided me with the evidence. You knew that your husband was the
> murderer because you had seen him leaving from the room after
Manius
> Florius and that poor servant. When you heard about the murder you
> knew that it could have not been anyone else. When I visited your
> house today you stopped me when I was saying goodbyes and clumsily
> tried to direct my suspicions to that creature" my master waived in
> the direction of Manius Florius.
>
> Lady Domitia lost her self control and started to cry and
said: "Yes".
>
> Now Postumus Calventius rose up and started to shout to his wife by
> using very foul language. My master instructed me and the three
other
> men to take Postumus Calventius and to put him into the small
storage
> room.
>
> "And now lady Domitia, perhaps you could explain why you wanted to
> protect your husband, it was not for love, was it?" my masters
voice
> was neutral.
>
> "No, it wasn't, I have known for long time that he is not loyal to
> me, but before our marriage he wanted to make a contract with my
poor
> father that in the case of divorce he does not have to give me
> anything he ownes, only my dowry. My father was a poor man and he
had
>
> ---- end of chapter 4 ----
>
>
> --
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
>
> Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
> Legatus Regionis Finnicae
> Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@w...
> www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
> www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
> gsm: +358-50-3315279
> fax: +358-9-8754751
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13539 From: Fortunatus Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: [mediatlanticaprovincia] citizen rings, yea or nea?
Salvete

> SPQNR would be Senatus PopulusQue Nova Roma

Nope.

Senatus Populusque Quiritum Novorum Romanorum

Though, come to think of it, I'm not at all sure that the double
adjective at the end is correct.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
People who take issue with control of population do not understand that
if it is not done in a graceful way, nature will do it in a brutal fashion.
-Henry Kendall
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13540 From: Quintus Cassius Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: New poll for Nova-Roma (Citizen Rings)
Salve,

This concept of a Citizen's ring is an excellent idea for all citizens. After this poll is concluded we should have a discussion on the concept of the ring (i.e. design) if we are to take such a matter seriously once public opinion has been gathered. I would definitely support special rings for certain elected officials (i.e. Consuls and maybe extended to Senators or Consuls and Senators or simply to Consuls). Great idea and may it gain more ground to come true.

Quintus Cassius


"What we do in life, echoes in eternity", "Virtute et armis"

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 13541 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-07-30
Subject: Re: Absens until August the 17th
Salvete!

I'll be thinking of all of you who are at the Rally this year, which due to
empty pockets, I will miss <loud sigh>.
If any of you are passing through Belgica on the way home, my door is open!

Valete,
Diana Moravia