> Have you been over to the America Boreoccidentalis Group?

Hey! Everybody over to the AmBor group! (There's live music and
beverages over there ;-)

Arnamentia

I Ran across this on Slashdot (News for Nerds), and
thought some of y'all might be intrested, even though
it has nothing to do with Rome.

Writing With Elvish Fonts

A guide explaining the basics of using Daniel Smith's
Tengwar fonts (and compatible ones). No previous
knowledge of Tolkien's invented alphabets is required.

http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/tengwartutorial.htm

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Caio Cornelio Varo sal.

Well Be You, Fellow Citizen,

I have only one line to comment on here, and therefore, I will remove the rest of your post from this missive.

"If people are done pointing fingers, can we get to actually trying to fix the problems? Or should the childish mudslinging continue?"

To say that people will ever be done pointing fingers would be a lie. For myself, I try not to do so, but I think that we, as humans, always feel the need to have a reason for something, and therefore something to blame for everything. However, should even the pointing of fingers continue, I think we can put a stop to the mudslinging. I also think we can settle ourselves long enough to start trying to fix the problems, even if that restarts the mudslinging and more problems. I should hope that we can all be naive enough to at least try to solve problems.

In salute menteque bona sanaque,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Civis Privatus

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

And now a liitle to the south and west on our Gallic holiday. Here's
a link to the _Athena Review_ article on "Sites and Museums in Roman
Gaul -- Saint-Raphaël (Epulias)":

http://www.athenapub.com/straph1.htm

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salve, Im new in the forum, but not so new in the Nova Roma comunity.
It is just to say Avete popvle!

> "To say that people will ever be done pointing fingers would be a

lie. For myself, I try not to do so, but I think that we, as humans,
always feel the need to have a reason for something, and therefore
something to blame for everything. However, should even the pointing
of fingers continue, I think we can put a stop to the mudslinging. I
also think we can settle ourselves long enough to start trying to fix
the problems, even if that restarts the mudslinging and more
problems. I should hope that we can all be naive enough to at least
try to solve problems."<

You are likely right. I just am a person who tends to think action,
even if it is wrong, is preferable to inaction. So consequently, I
make a lot of mis-steps. I tend to avoid finger pointing and blame
and focus on fixing things. It's my nature and i'm sure it is strange
to some.

Unfortunately I have seen lots of talk and little action. Maybe the
mudslinging will actually rattle some cages and inspire action. I
don't know. If activity comes of all this i'll be pleasently suprised.
I'm hoping some constructive talk will bring about some action.

Varus

Salvete omnes,

I see no problems here that do not exist in any other institution be
it other cultural organizations, the academic world, military, the
oil patch, industry, commercial, fashion, entertainment worlds or
even ancient Rome herself. Always there is criticism, complaining,
back biting, brown nosing (now called career planning), scape goat
hunting and all that stuff. As my friend Diana Moriava told me, " Hey
Paulinus, who wants to be a wall flower? " Let me remind you of two
quotes which I have posted before but always seem quickly forgotten.

1) The only thing more horrifying than being " talked about is not
being talked about at all! " - Oscar Wild


2) Begin each day by telling yourself that today I shall encounter
ignorance, ingratitude, insolence ... - Marcus Aurelius


Well that's the reality of the world; best to try to be thick
skinned, take the good with the bad, try to follow the virtues but
verbally kick butt when necessary. We're all human and do slip
occasionally.

Quintus

Salve Romans

Elections are just around the corner!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you are a citizen and you are thinking of running in the elections and would like some material included in the election issue of the Eagle you need to start thinking about it now. If over the next couple of months you want to send the Eagle material for inclusion we will keep it embargoed and confidential until it is published.

Most likely the October issue will be the issue that we will include information on candidates so the information must be to me by September 15 at the latest.

You can send a bio, positions, endorsements, a picture anything that you want included.

The Following are guide lines you can use for submitting information.

This not in stone and is provided as a guide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Candidates for CONSUL will have 2 full pages 8/12 by 11
( subject to change if we get 5 or more candidates for Consul)

Candidates for PRAETOR will have 1 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for TRIBUNUS PLEBIS will have 1 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for CURULE AEDILE will have 1 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for PLEBEIAN AEDILE will have 1 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for QUAESTOR will have 1/2 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for Curator Differum will have 1/2 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for Curator Araneum will have 1/2 full page 8/12 by 11
Candidates for Rogator will have 1/4 full page 8/12 by 11

Any other suggestions for the election issue are welcome.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum
"Fiat justitia ruat caelum"











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Romans


Are they any Nova Romans that are real estate agents or anybody own an old house that is not being used as such and could be turned into a house museum?


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

I am a new citizen. The brief exchange below raises a question for me
about the life in NR. I remember my Latin professor, years ago,
emphasizing certain Roman virtues that she expected all of us to
cultivate. (I remember only pietas, gravitas, and comitas.) I've also
read thru the list of virtues at
http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html. That list is rather
long, so I wonder, which virtues do members of the list see as most
important to NR and the Via Romana? And, if I can impose just a bit
more, is there any necessary relationship in NR between Roman virtues
and posting to this list?

C. Iulius Iustinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:

> Ave C. Cornelius,
>
> Please do not stoop to his level and contribute to a flame war.

Just

> contact the Praetors and file a complaint. Let the legal system in
> Nova Roma deal with him.
>
> Respectfully,
> MAB
> Now,
> On with Rligio topics for discussion and sweep this detritus under
> the rug.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Caius Cornelius Varus"
> <eq_germanicus@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnibus,
> >
> > I've seen some posts here that verge on a downright flamewar
> without
> > any purpose other than to be malicious. Sometimes it doesn't
> > even "verge". Online forums are havens for those willing to be
> > mailicious in a safe format.
> >
> > Now, to my understanding Romans were not the kinder/ gentler
> > politically correct people we try to be today, so I have no
> > expectations of our cives to be mild-mannered, conscientous and
> > thoughtful. Not at all. I expect debate. I expect arguements. I
> > expect to see different views thrown out and discussed, even
> heatedly.
> >

<snip>

> >
> > Valete bene,
> >
> > Caius Cornelius Varus

Salve Merlinia,

I'll be in NYC again sometime in September. I'll be in touch to see if there
are any Nova Romans who are meeting then!

Vale dear one!
Diana Moravia

I go into surgery at 8am today
wish me luck, it should take 3-5 hours and I should be back home in 3 to 4
days.
people who wish to call caan do so starting sataday.been waiting *8* years
for this..
wuffa/william wheeler/marcus corneliua felix







Rule #0: Spam is theft
Rule #1: Spammers lie
Rule #2: There is no such thing as legitimate or ethical UCE


The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed,
but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans
fought each other to a standstill.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.

Geek Orthodox, Murphy Synod

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Would love to meet and greet if you are in the area.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:

> Salve Merlinia,
>
> I'll be in NYC again sometime in September. I'll be in touch to see

if there

> are any Nova Romans who are meeting then!
>
> Vale dear one!
> Diana Moravia

Salve C. Iulius Iustinus, et salvete quirites,

C. Iulius Iustinus writes:

[...]

> http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html. That list is rather
> long, so I wonder, which virtues do members of the list see as most
> important to NR and the Via Romana?

I'm not sure I'd want to place any one above the others. They are
all important for anyone who aspires to be a well rounded person.
If I had to pick out one in particular, I'd choose Veritas, as it
maps closest to what I call Integrity, the virtue I consider to
be most important in anyone.

> And, if I can impose just a bit
> more, is there any necessary relationship in NR between Roman virtues
> and posting to this list?

No, there is not. Heck, you don't even have to be a citizen to post
to this mailing list. All who post are subject to the oversight of
the praetors, and all should (but often do not) comply with the
posting guidelines which are republished from time to time.

However, a review of the virtues never hurts, and you'd be right in
asserting that we'd all be well advised to try to live up to the
virtues - to be our best selves - when we post here.

Vale, et valete,

-- Marinus

Integrity is a great word, I don't think i could come up with a
better one if I had to. Maybe secondary would be scruples.
I*t never hurts to be reminded of the simple facts every so often to
bring us back on track.
Every individual is accountable ultimatly to the self, therefore,
formation of that self demands the utmost care and attention.
A favourite quote or axiom of mine.
There are times, all too frequently, when others can divert us of our
main goals; all part of the self testing and then back to the lessons
and dicipline and hopefully those times become less frequent.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> Salve C. Iulius Iustinus, et salvete quirites,
>
> C. Iulius Iustinus writes:
>
> [...]
> > http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html. That list is

rather

> > long, so I wonder, which virtues do members of the list see as

most

> > important to NR and the Via Romana?
>
> I'm not sure I'd want to place any one above the others. They are
> all important for anyone who aspires to be a well rounded person.
> If I had to pick out one in particular, I'd choose Veritas, as it
> maps closest to what I call Integrity, the virtue I consider to
> be most important in anyone.
>
> > And, if I can impose just a bit
> > more, is there any necessary relationship in NR between Roman

virtues

> > and posting to this list?
>
> No, there is not. Heck, you don't even have to be a citizen to post
> to this mailing list. All who post are subject to the oversight of
> the praetors, and all should (but often do not) comply with the
> posting guidelines which are republished from time to time.
>
> However, a review of the virtues never hurts, and you'd be right in
> asserting that we'd all be well advised to try to live up to the
> virtues - to be our best selves - when we post here.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> -- Marinus

Julilla Sempronia Magna omnibus SPD

Excellent subject! There is little that I value more highly than
good, solid values, and our Roman virtues mean more to me than I can
say.

I have had this poster hanging in my office for at least two years
now, and have just found it again on the web. Here's the FTP link:

ftp://ftp.macdock.com/users/presenceofmind/ftp/Virtues.pdf

.. and if that doesn't work, go to this site and scroll down
to "Roman Virtues" to find the link

http://www.presenceofmind.net/Latin/

May it bring as much pleasure and solace to you as it has to me!

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Factio Praesina
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/

Salve,
My appologies, I didn't notice the G nor would I have known what a G meant. I thought that would be j/k. I am new to the information age- again, my appologies.
As a master of sarcasm, I am embarrassed I did not catch it.
Vale.

quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...> wrote:
Salve,

It's called a joke, hence the <G> at the end. Since there has only
been one complaint, yours, I'd say it was safe to believe that
everyone else got the joke.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:

> That wasn't very nice.
>
> quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:--- In Nova-

Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael

> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Oh, one more thing. The ring would sure be a great way to

identify

> > one another in the world something like the free masons, engineer
> or
> > university graduates do.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus
>
> You're right. That way if I see that ring in a crowd, I'll know

who

> to avoid. <G>
>
> Calvus
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
>
> S P Q R
>
> Fidelis Ad Mortem.
>
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> Roman Citizen
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



---------------------------------
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fellow citizen, I was referring to the main list postings. There is a time, place and venue for everything. Although we all share Roman citizenship, we are human beings and the attempt to discuss certain topics without become animated is sometimes impossible. Even if we all practiced the same religion, it is inevitable not to have heavy debating even arguing. Politics...well, the Roma of the late Res Publica says it all for me. I did not mean to offend you. I also joined NR for religious reasons.
Marcvs Flavivs Fides

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
The reason some of us are in Nova Roma is because of religion. I joined NR because of the Religio.

Vale;

G. Modius

In a message dated 8/5/2003 4:27:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...> writes:

>As always, keep out religion, gender and macr-world politics and things won't spin out of control. Include any of the above, watch out! I know this does not answer your question, just a friendly reminder.
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides

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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

VICESIMA QUARTA - NEWSLETTER
LEGION XXIV MEDIA ATLANTIA
Defending the Frontiers of Ancient Rome
in the Mid-Atlantic Province of North America

ROMAN MARKET DAYS ADVANCE

Gallio Velius Marsallas
George W. Metz Praefectus / Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073
legionxxiv@... 610-353-4982
www.legionxxiv.org

John Ebel, Summa Palus, Lead Gladiator
Box 2146 - East Hampton, NY 11937
631-329-2430 home 800-926-2306 office
gladius1@...

Avete et Salutatio Commilitones

ANCIENT ROME COMES TO MAINE Mark Your Calendars!!
The Legion and our Ludus Magnus Gladiator School will be out in
full force for this event. NovaRoma will also have a major presence
and will be having conferences and gatherings.
Please advise the Commander if you will be taking part in this major Roman happening. legionxxiv@...

LODGING - Legion Headquarters will be the Salmon Falls Motel,
a few miles from the event site - 207-929-5233.
$55 single $65 double, good rates for the area and season.

As of 6PM on Wednesday, August 6, Only Three Rooms Remain
available.
They have a restaurant on the premises.
This is the only motel in Hollis and is closest to the event site.
Go to www.romanmarketday.com for other lodging locations.

Roman Market Days will be a historical re-enactment with gladiators, soldiers, shopping and entertainment 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Saturday and Sunday, Sept. 13 and 14, 2003, Hollis Equestrian Center, Hollis, Maine. (directions below)

Come visit us at the Hollis Equestrian Center, Hollis, Maine, from 10
a.m. to 4 p.m. Sept. 13 and 14, 2003! Reenactor participants will be free of course, while the public will pay $5 for adults, $3 for students
and seniors, age 5 and under free.

GAMES AND SPECTACLES: Nova Roma is proud to welcome Legio XXIV, a Roman re-enactor unit with accurate historical displays of combat armor, weapons and clothing. Ask the Praefectus about the Roman soldier's life, work and skills, or find out how you can get involved in Roman re-enacting.
We also welcome the Ludus Magnus gladiatorial troupe, which offers a
lively and informative display of the show combats that the Romans so
enjoyed. The Shire of Mountain Freehold from Vermont will demonstrate the use of cavalry in Roman times, with historically accurate horse equipment.
Other activities will include a talk on Roman fashion and a Children's Table with parent-directed crafts on Roman themes, with coloring pages and a make-your-own mosaic activity.
Vendors will include: -- La Wren's Nest: The East Coast's premier source of historically accurate Roman items, including armor, weapons, tunics, togas, women's costumes, jewelry and accessories.
-- Imperium Ancient Arts: Affordable, genuine ancient artifacts from
the Roman world and beyond. Special selection of low-cost items appeals to the beginning collector and student.
-- The Tinker's Backpack: Jewelry, leather goods and other accessories.
-- Thornefolk Solutions: Handcrafted bath items.
-- Biblioteca Pompeii: New and used books related to ancient Rome.
-- Ancient Fire: Human body art (mehndi)
-- S and M Unlimited: Your photo in Roman costume!
-- And more to be named later.
FOOD FOR BODY AND MIND: Vendors will offer a selection of food and drink both ancient and modern. Educational displays will include
information on Roman weddings, religion, cuisine, maps and more.
Sanitary facilities (including those accessible to people with
disabilities) will be available on site.

DIRECTIONS: All roads may lead to Rome, but to get to Roman
Market Day, you need to find Hollis, Maine.

From Portsmouth, Boston and points south: Get on Interstate 95,
which becomes the Maine Turnpike, and take Exit 3 (Kennebunk).

From the exit, head north on Route 35 through Dayton.
After you cross into Hollis, Route 35 takes a sharp curve to the right. Turn left at this curve onto Clarks Mills Road.
The Hollis Equestrian Park is at the other end of the road,
about 2 miles.

From other locations: See http://www.mainehorse.com/hep/directions.html

FOR MORE INFORMATION: Pat Washburn, 207-251-2143
or pcassia@...; vendor coordinator Julie Brooks,
860-928-6908 or lawrensnest@....
88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

LAKEWOOD LION'S RENAISSANCE FAIRE - Sept 20 & 21
another major event one week after "Market Days".
The Legion and Ludus will be there for an encore presentation.
Please make every effort to attend. More to follow in the August
Vicesima Quarta Newsletter.
8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

Thanking you in advance for your support of Legion XXIV and
the Ludus Magnus in these two major events.

I manere in Viresium et Honorare
I remain in Strength and Honor

(take your pick)
Tuus in Sodalicio Romanae Republica
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Tuus in Sodalicio Romanae Imperi
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Empire

Gallio / George










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps something special should be done. I wonder if the Romans saw
this, and what they'd have made of it?
-M.


Never again in your lifetime will the Red
Planet be so spectacular.
This month and next Earth is catching up with
Mars, an encounter that
will
culminate in the closest approach between the
two planets in recorded
history.
The next time Mars may come this close is in
2287.

Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars
and perturbs its orbit,
astronomers can only be certain that Mars has
not come this close to
Earth
in the last 5,000 years.

The encounter will culminate on August 27th
when Mars comes to within
34,649,589 miles and will be (next to the Moon)
the brightest object
in the night sky.

It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will
appear 25.11 arc seconds
wide.

At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will
look as large as the full
moon to the naked eye.

Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of
August Mars will rise in
the
east at 10 p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3
a.m. But, by the end
of
August when the two planets are closest, Mars
will rise at nightfall
and
reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30
a.m. That's pretty
convenient
when it comes to seeing something that no human
eye has seen in
recorded
history. So mark your calendar at the
beginning of August to see Mars
grow
progressively brighter and brighter throughout
the month.

Share with your children and grandchildren. No
one alive today will
ever see this again.


"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With
our thoughts we make the world" ~Buddha

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=10469/*http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com> - Free,
easy-to-use web site design software

Salve,

It's quite alright. I have a dry and slightly warped sense of humor
so I'm used to being misunderstood, or even worse being taken
literally!

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:

> Salve,
> My appologies, I didn't notice the G nor would I have known

what a G meant. I thought that would be j/k. I am new to the
information age- again, my appologies.

> As a master of sarcasm, I am embarrassed I did not catch it.
> Vale.
>
> quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> It's called a joke, hence the <G> at the end. Since there has only
> been one complaint, yours, I'd say it was safe to believe that
> everyone else got the joke.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>

Salve everyone,

I could not pay my taxes this year. A simple $12.00 yes, but I was in the
middle of a crisis, and still am, financially, and have to be careful with what
I do with every bit I get and got. I am guessing it is too late to pay for
this year now, but when will I have the ability to pay off my taxes and restore
my citizenship to full? I hope this question makes sense...I am not sure of
the term used for what I am asking. I thank you all ahead of time who can help
me! Take care, be well, much love!

Vale,

~ Anneia

--- PrincessandHope@... wrote:

> Salve everyone,
>
> I could not pay my taxes this year. A simple $12.00
> yes, but I was in the
> middle of a crisis, and still am, financially, and
> have to be careful with what
> I do with every bit I get and got. I am guessing it
> is too late to pay for
> this year now, but when will I have the ability to
> pay off my taxes and restore
> my citizenship to full? I hope this question makes
> sense...I am not sure of
> the term used for what I am asking. I thank you all
> ahead of time who can help
> me! Take care, be well, much love!

Salve Anneia,

You can pay your taxes for this year at any time,
though there is a late fee involved. The Consular
Questors should be able to assist you.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Salve Anneia, et salvete quirites,

Anneia writes:

> I could not pay my taxes this year. A simple $12.00 yes, but I was in the
> middle of a crisis, and still am, financially, and have to be careful with what
> I do with every bit I get and got. I am guessing it is too late to pay for
> this year now, but when will I have the ability to pay off my taxes and restore
> my citizenship to full?

According to the LEX CORNELIA OCTAVIA DE ASSIDUI ET CAPITI CENSI,
which can be seen at
http://novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-12-24-i.html
you may pay your taxes at any time and restore your Assidui
status. The relevant section is:

> II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying
> the appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment
> is made during a contio or election, the change in status will take
> place after the election concludes.

You should write to the Censors (censors @ novaroma . org)
to find if the Senate has imposed a late fee for this year,
and if so, how much it is. But you should be able to pay your
taxes at any time.

-- Marinus

Salve
I guess it should have been very important for them considering this
planet is named after the god of war and happening during the month
named after emperor Augustus .
Anyway, this very unusual event should be of big importance and joy
for every novaroman interested in astronomy. An event to joy and
remember for sure. I watched this planet for the very first time in
my life two years ago using a refractor telescope when the planet was
about 67 millions of kilometers. On August 27th, the red planet will
be only 55 millions of kilometers. A joyful month for astronomers!!.
Cheers!
Bene vale
L. Pompeius Octavianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Shaver <merlinia@c...> wrote:
> Perhaps something special should be done. I wonder if the Romans
saw
> this, and what they'd have made of it?
> -M.
>
>
> Never again in your lifetime will the Red
> Planet be so spectacular.
> This month and next Earth is catching up with
> Mars, an encounter that
> will
> culminate in the closest approach between the
> two planets in recorded
> history.
> The next time Mars may come this close is in
> 2287.
>
> Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars
> and perturbs its orbit,
> astronomers can only be certain that Mars has
> not come this close to
> Earth
> in the last 5,000 years.
>
> The encounter will culminate on August 27th
> when Mars comes to within
> 34,649,589 miles and will be (next to the Moon)
> the brightest object
> in the night sky.
>
> It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will
> appear 25.11 arc seconds
> wide.
>
> At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will
> look as large as the full
> moon to the naked eye.
>
> Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of
> August Mars will rise in
> the
> east at 10 p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3
> a.m. But, by the end
> of
> August when the two planets are closest, Mars
> will rise at nightfall
> and
> reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30
> a.m. That's pretty
> convenient
> when it comes to seeing something that no human
> eye has seen in
> recorded
> history. So mark your calendar at the
> beginning of August to see Mars
> grow
> progressively brighter and brighter throughout
> the month.
>
> Share with your children and grandchildren. No
> one alive today will
> ever see this again.
>
>
> "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With
> our thoughts we make the world" ~Buddha
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=10469/*http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com> -
Free,
> easy-to-use web site design software

It has been many years since I gave up on astronomy. Just curious. How
many astronomical units is that. I read it in the papers too when they talk
miles and kilometers but those distances are meaningless unless you're
calculating a space trip with a craft which speed you know. For a man
outside the lab it means nothing.

Vale

G. Galerius Peregrinator


To God all things are fair and good and right, but men hold some things
wrong and some right.

Heraclitus


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <danielovi@...>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Fwd: FWD: Close encounter with mars]
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:01:07 -0000

Salve
I guess it should have been very important for them considering this
planet is named after the god of war and happening during the month
named after emperor Augustus .
Anyway, this very unusual event should be of big importance and joy
for every novaroman interested in astronomy. An event to joy and
remember for sure. I watched this planet for the very first time in
my life two years ago using a refractor telescope when the planet was
about 67 millions of kilometers. On August 27th, the red planet will
be only 55 millions of kilometers. A joyful month for astronomers!!.
Cheers!
Bene vale
L. Pompeius Octavianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Shaver <merlinia@c...> wrote:
> Perhaps something special should be done. I wonder if the Romans
saw
> this, and what they'd have made of it?
> -M.
>
>
> Never again in your lifetime will the Red
> Planet be so spectacular.
> This month and next Earth is catching up with
> Mars, an encounter that
> will
> culminate in the closest approach between the
> two planets in recorded
> history.
> The next time Mars may come this close is in
> 2287.
>
> Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars
> and perturbs its orbit,
> astronomers can only be certain that Mars has
> not come this close to
> Earth
> in the last 5,000 years.
>
> The encounter will culminate on August 27th
> when Mars comes to within
> 34,649,589 miles and will be (next to the Moon)
> the brightest object
> in the night sky.
>
> It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will
> appear 25.11 arc seconds
> wide.
>
> At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will
> look as large as the full
> moon to the naked eye.
>
> Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of
> August Mars will rise in
> the
> east at 10 p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3
> a.m. But, by the end
> of
> August when the two planets are closest, Mars
> will rise at nightfall
> and
> reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30
> a.m. That's pretty
> convenient
> when it comes to seeing something that no human
> eye has seen in
> recorded
> history. So mark your calendar at the
> beginning of August to see Mars
> grow
> progressively brighter and brighter throughout
> the month.
>
> Share with your children and grandchildren. No
> one alive today will
> ever see this again.
>
>
> "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With
> our thoughts we make the world" ~Buddha
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=10469/*http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com> -
Free,
> easy-to-use web site design software

_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

And now a liitle more to the west on our virtual Gallic holiday.
Here's a link to the _Athena Review_ article on "Sites and Museums in
Roman Gaul -- Fréjus" (Forum Iulii):

http://www.athenapub.com/frejus1.htm

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salvete,

I just stumbled across this page - there are some hysterical Latin quotes
here.

http://www.student.hig.se/~nd00aon/quote.html

My personal favorite:

"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum
immane mittam."

"I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock
at your head."

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Company - Champion Productions is planning on filming a
promotional movie trailer for a screenplay set in the second
century. The location of the shooting is the Parthenon in Nashville
Tennessee. Since we will have the entire interior of the building
to ourselves overseen by the Goddess Athena's forty foot statue, we
are thinking of having a Convention of Ancient Re-enactors. Having
the convention will also supply us with a vast array of extra's from
Legionaries, Senators and citizens to populate our scenes.

I have taken the name Bosarius from the novels and sceenplay from
which the movie trailer originates. Therefore I pose the following
questions to the leaders of all groups and ask that the consensus of
the following questions be delivered to us ASAP.

1: How many Romans of each category can we expect (Citizens,
Senators, Legionaries, Praetorians, Gladiators, Barbarians, etc.)

2: What is the best month to hold a convention and gathering to shoot
our moive trailer. We were thinking this October 03 or March 04.
Both
months will be cool enough for heavy garments and armor.

3: How many months advance notice would be needed to effectuate the
gathering / convention.

Sincerely, Bosarius

Salve Gaius Galerius, et salvete quirites,

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator asked:

> How many astronomical units is that?

(with respect to Lucius Pompeius Octavianus post, in which
LPO said...)

> On August 27th, the red planet will be only 55 millions
> of kilometers.

One Astronomical Unit is 150 million kilometers. So 55
million km is slightly greater than 0.3 AU. The AU is
the average distance between the Earth and the Sun.

Valete,

-- Marinus (professor of physics and astronomy)

Salvete omnes,

I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your school
systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
subject only?

Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic knowledge from many young
people from around the world who never had heard of the American
Civil war to anything regarding the basics of world war 11. That
seems a little scary to me.

Regards,

Quintus

Salve Anneia

> I am guessing it is too late to pay for this year now, but when will I have
> the ability to pay off my taxes and restore my citizenship to full?

You can pay your taxes and join the assidui at any time. However, there is a
penalty of $6 for late payment. (Actually, the penalty is an extra 50%, which
is only $6 if your tax rate was $12.)

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> writes:

> .... Is history still compulsory in your school
> systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
> subject only?

History is still a required subject for Maryland high school
students. All high school students are required to take courses
in Government, United States History, and World History as part
of their overall "Social Studies" curriculum.

Quoting from the website
http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/curriculum/socialstd/MSPAP/HSA_Preface.html

"The Core Learning Goals for Social Studies include four core learnings from
the Maryland School Performance Outcomes for Social Studies: Political
Systems, Peoples of the Nation and World, Geography, and Economics. The
expectations reflect a blend of the Maryland Social Studies Outcomes (1990)
and the National Standards in History (1994), Civics and Government (1994),
Geography (1994), Economics (1994), and Social Studies (1994)."

Now I'll admit that having seen my daughters' history textbooks
I know that a lot of the coverage is rudimentary. But there's
enough there for interested students to be drawn in, and then go
on to further self-study. Both of my daughters are avid history
buffs, and they were able to find a lot in the school libraries
that went beyond the basic textbook material.

How well the goals are being realized in places like Baltimore
City's inner city schools is anyone's guess. When six students
have to share one textbook I don't suppose any of them learn a
whole lot. But at least in suburban Maryland history education
seems to be alive and well.

-- Marinus

Part of the problem is that they don't teach history but rather they
marginalize historic events. I am a history and education major and one of
the major problems I have found in most history books is that they are
sanitized so much so as not to offend anyone on the left or right. So there
fore the end result is a politically correct and controlled version. In the
United States 27 states have rules for textbooks used in the states schools.
These 27 states decide what exactly our children learn as long as it doesn't
offend anyone. This in turn means that the historical truth is sanitized and
there are major issues and topics of discussion that are no longer
discussed. I know that Current History books used in Middle and Secondary
schools have less information than they did when I was in Those grades over
20 years ago. The sad part is that the books haven't gotten any smaller.

When you can cover a major part of US or European History in a Paragraph,
how many of the facts for the event are forgotten?

Clovius

Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James


We walk together on sacred ground.
Black feet, white feet, treading softly on the land.
Mother Kuniya moves beneath our feet,
the Tjukurpa/Creation Law breathes life
into the sacred landscape of Uluru.

White guides and Anangu guides, working together. We stand firm in the
laws of the two cultures, keeping the cultural and natural heritage strong.
Our feet on sacred ground our hands reach up to hold the new circle of life;
The campfire, the waterhole, where people of all cultures can meet and
share.


----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 1361177 or, * Page me online through my
Personal Communication Center: < http://www.icq.com/1361177> (go there and
try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen
1361177@... <mailto:1361177@...> * You may
visit my Personal ICQ Homepage: http://members.icq.com/1361177
<http://members.icq.com/1361177> For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
<http://www.icq.com/> For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: <
http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html>

----------------------------------------------------

Argent, a natural panther's head sable, in chief three gouttes d'huile.



-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) [mailto:mjk@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:32 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Is history still compulsory?


Salvete omnes,

I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your school
systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
subject only?

Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic knowledge from many young
people from around the world who never had heard of the American
Civil war to anything regarding the basics of world war 11. That
seems a little scary to me.

Regards,

Quintus



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Salve,
Speaking of catapults:
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas
habebunt.

>When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. Minucius Hadrianus"
<hadrianus@3...> wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I just stumbled across this page - there are some hysterical Latin

quotes

> here.
>
> http://www.student.hig.se/~nd00aon/quote.html
>
> My personal favorite:
>
> "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum

saxum

> immane mittam."
>
> "I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an

enormous rock

> at your head."
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Quintus,
I've been hearing similar claims and it is scary.
I also heard that the history books are going to be re-written to be
less offensive and more PC. That is really scary. It is not so much
the kids fault as it is the schools or the government for allowing
this.
But hey, in a country where the spoken language isn't being upheld,
why should we bitch about history. SAD! Very SAD!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
> citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your

school

> systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
> subject only?
>
> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic knowledge from many young
> people from around the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of world war 11. That
> seems a little scary to me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Clovis Cathmor" <cloviscathmor@...>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Is history still compulsory?
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:58:30 -0500

Part of the problem is that they don't teach history but rather they
marginalize historic events. I am a history and education major and one of
the major problems I have found in most history books is that they are
sanitized so much so as not to offend anyone on the left or right. So there
fore the end result is a politically correct and controlled version. In the
United States 27 states have rules for textbooks used in the states schools.
These 27 states decide what exactly our children learn as long as it doesn't
offend anyone. This in turn means that the historical truth is sanitized and
there are major issues and topics of discussion that are no longer
discussed. I know that Current History books used in Middle and Secondary
schools have less information than they did when I was in Those grades over
20 years ago. The sad part is that the books haven't gotten any smaller.

When you can cover a major part of US or European History in a Paragraph,
how many of the facts for the event are forgotten?

Clovius

Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James

------------------------------------------------------------

Can you give some examples?

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Having lucked out and been given a ticket to this year's Burning Man, I am
looking into the feasibility of quickly putting together some kind of
Mithraic recreation for this year's theme of "Beyond Belief." Unless some
other person is planning a better Mithraeum for Burning Man, I would like to
put together an informative experience about Mithras and its unacknowledged
influence on religions practiced today.
When Roman armies went on the march in the 3rd century, did they have some
kind of moblie shrine to Mithras when they went? Or was Mithraism only
practiced in the dedicated (stone and immobile) underground temples?
What I am thinking of is a shade structure/tent that has been enclosed and
decorated with art seen in a reconstruction of a Mithraic temple in England.
What would be the necessary ingredients for a mobile Mithraeum?
Where might I be able to find a costume, or at least appropriate headgear a
Mithraic priest? I have in mind a costume featured in Volume 2 of Osprey's
Roman Military dress.
Other than something called the Paris Liturgy (whose provenance I don't know
about) are there any other extant texts of the rituals of Mithras?
My biggest concerns are: time, as I have about 3 weeks to get this together
and money.
Any suggestions from reenactors or believers is welcomed.

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Salvete Omnes,

This link:
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/nchs/standards/

is the susgested standards for History books in the
United States.

--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@...> wrote:

> Salve Quintus,
> I've been hearing similar claims and it is scary.
> I also heard that the history books are going to be
> re-written to be
> less offensive and more PC. That is really scary.
> It is not so much
> the kids fault as it is the schools or the
> government for allowing
> this.
> But hey, in a country where the spoken language
> isn't being upheld,
> why should we bitch about history. SAD! Very SAD!
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius
> Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > I just have a question for the ML and back alley
> for all our NR
> > citizens around the world. Is history still
> compulsory in your
> school
> > systems or is it gradually being phased to more of
> an elective
> > subject only?
> >
> > Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic
> knowledge from many young
> > people from around the world who never had heard
> of the American
> > Civil war to anything regarding the basics of
> world war 11. That
> > seems a little scary to me.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Commander Gallio, Militarium, Legio VI Members.

I grieve to relate that I shall not be able to attend Roman Market Days.
I am detained by a New Haven Event the date and commitment for which was
made last year. I am the Event organizer. The dates for the 2003
Markey Days were set considerably after that commitment. However, a
young friend of my aquaintance want very much to attend, but knows
no-one in the Roman world but myself. I have assured him that he will
recieve a warm welcome from both my friends in Nova Roma and my Gens
members who may attend.

He wishes to be a part of the Ludi Maximus Gladitori, and to begin, as
all others do, at the bottom as Noxxi (Sp??).

Therefore I appeal to those same friends and comrades to take him to
yourselves as you would myself, engage him fully in your activities as
befits his experience and enthusiasm, and send him home saited with the
Roman Hospitality, that you all have always shown to me.

My thanks in advance to you for this consideration.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Ladies and Gentlemen;

My apologies to all. The preceedig message was sent before I intended.

My young friend's name is

Marcus Minucius Mithras (John Camden), he is twenty years of age and he
is not outfitted for a legio or the ludi. However, I will lend him a
few things to help out if the Ludi can provide a tunic.

Sorry for the duble sending;

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" wrote:

> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic
> knowledge from many young people from around
> the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of
> world war 11.

Salve, Quinte Lani Pauline.

History is, in Sweden at least, one of the core subjects. Swedish,
english, mathematics, NO (physics, chemistry, biology and technology),
SO (history, social science, geography and religion) and *shudder*
sports are subjects you won't be able to avoid, given a theoretical
education, until university/college level studies.

However, for some reason our classes take up very little about the
american civil war, possibly for the same reason very few US classes
mention the wars of Karl XII, or Sweden's period as a superpower.
(Swedish word "stormakt", not really translatable into superpower, but
used all the same as an approximation.)

Don't look down on people because they're not familiar with subjects you
deem basic, consider why they wouldn't have learned it instead.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Im honour bound to support the statements of Titus Octavius Pius. The American Civil War, while terrible central to the American national identity, was little more than a trade disruption to the rest of the world. Slavery had already been outlawed in Europe... so the end of slavery in America was not a new trend. Nor was America a world power at this time. There is very little reason for the American Civil War to be a vital point of curriculum in any nation outside the United States.

L.Licinius Murena

Kristoffer From <from@...> wrote:
"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" wrote:

> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic
> knowledge from many young people from around
> the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of
> world war 11.

Salve, Quinte Lani Pauline.

History is, in Sweden at least, one of the core subjects. Swedish,
english, mathematics, NO (physics, chemistry, biology and technology),
SO (history, social science, geography and religion) and *shudder*
sports are subjects you won't be able to avoid, given a theoretical
education, until university/college level studies.

However, for some reason our classes take up very little about the
american civil war, possibly for the same reason very few US classes
mention the wars of Karl XII, or Sweden's period as a superpower.
(Swedish word "stormakt", not really translatable into superpower, but
used all the same as an approximation.)

Don't look down on people because they're not familiar with subjects you
deem basic, consider why they wouldn't have learned it instead.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Clovis
I know that history has been written by the victors but history is
the one subject that should not be diluted, mellowed or sweetened to
cover the facts however unpallatable IMO.

Strangers, happily working together.
Vale
MAB



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
<gaiusgalerius@h...> wrote:

>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Clovis Cathmor" <cloviscathmor@s...>
> Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Is history still compulsory?
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:58:30 -0500
>
> Part of the problem is that they don't teach history but rather they
> marginalize historic events. I am a history and education major

and one of

> the major problems I have found in most history books is that they

are

> sanitized so much so as not to offend anyone on the left or right.

So there

> fore the end result is a politically correct and controlled

version. In the

> United States 27 states have rules for textbooks used in the states

schools.

> These 27 states decide what exactly our children learn as long as

it doesn't

> offend anyone. This in turn means that the historical truth is

sanitized and

> there are major issues and topics of discussion that are no longer
> discussed. I know that Current History books used in Middle and

Secondary

> schools have less information than they did when I was in Those

grades over

> 20 years ago. The sad part is that the books haven't gotten any

smaller.

>
> When you can cover a major part of US or European History in a

Paragraph,

> how many of the facts for the event are forgotten?
>
> Clovius
>
> Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Can you give some examples?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

That seems very interesting, I'd like to hear more.
Mithras was known as the soldiers God and I can't think of anyone who
would be more superstitous than someone who by their occupation deals
with the possibility of death on a daily basis.
I believe there were levels of initiation which were apparent based
on the head dress - raven, lion, sun masks etc. but I don't know more
than hearsay as to that.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus"
<ahenobarbus@h...> wrote:

>
> Having lucked out and been given a ticket to this year's Burning

Man, I am

> looking into the feasibility of quickly putting together some kind

of

> Mithraic recreation for this year's theme of "Beyond Belief."

Unless some

> other person is planning a better Mithraeum for Burning Man, I

would like to

> put together an informative experience about Mithras and its

unacknowledged

> influence on religions practiced today.
> When Roman armies went on the march in the 3rd century, did they

have some

> kind of moblie shrine to Mithras when they went? Or was Mithraism

only

> practiced in the dedicated (stone and immobile) underground temples?
> What I am thinking of is a shade structure/tent that has been

enclosed and

> decorated with art seen in a reconstruction of a Mithraic temple in

England.

> What would be the necessary ingredients for a mobile Mithraeum?
> Where might I be able to find a costume, or at least appropriate

headgear a

> Mithraic priest? I have in mind a costume featured in Volume 2 of

Osprey's

> Roman Military dress.
> Other than something called the Paris Liturgy (whose provenance I

don't know

> about) are there any other extant texts of the rituals of Mithras?
> My biggest concerns are: time, as I have about 3 weeks to get this

together

> and money.
> Any suggestions from reenactors or believers is welcomed.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Titus Octavius Pius writes:

> However, for some reason our classes take up very little about the
> american civil war, possibly for the same reason very few US classes
> mention the wars of Karl XII, or Sweden's period as a superpower.

And, in fact, I never learned anything about Swedish history while
I was in high school in the US. It took studying the Napoleonic
wars and watching "I Am Curious Blue" (or Yellow) to expand my
knowledge of Sweden beyond somewhere in Scandanavia where the
Vikings used to hang out and girls put candles in their hair
for Christmas.

However, before we give Quintus Lanius Paulinus too much of a
hard time, I'll note that he's a Canadian and not a citizen
of the US. He probably had to learn about the American Civil
War (known as the War of Northern Aggression among my in-laws)
in self defense. He also knows that General Brock kicked the
American forces back across the Niagra river during the War
of 1812, and like any other Canadian he probably has a perspective
on that war that few Americans share.

His point about the importance of basic knowledge concerning
WW II stands. Anyone educated on this planet should know
the basic facts about which nations were involved in that
awful conflict.

All that said, would you drop me a note offline and tell me
more about Sweden's period as a superpower? I'd be interested.

-- Marinus

Salve Marcus,

I agree whole heartedly with you. As do most of my professors and most good
historians.
The key is getting the Censors to leave history to be taught based on what
actually happened
and not as a feel good thing much like it has become. If we were all true
students of history and
its good and bad acts and events the world would be a much better place and
we would probably see
major differences in who runs this and any other country.

Clovius

Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James


We walk together on sacred ground.
Black feet, white feet, treading softly on the land.
Mother Kuniya moves beneath our feet,
the Tjukurpa/Creation Law breathes life
into the sacred landscape of Uluru.

White guides and Anangu guides, working together. We stand firm in the
laws of the two cultures, keeping the cultural and natural heritage strong.
Our feet on sacred ground our hands reach up to hold the new circle of life;
The campfire, the waterhole, where people of all cultures can meet and
share.


----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 1361177 or, * Page me online through my
Personal Communication Center: < http://www.icq.com/1361177> (go there and
try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen
1361177@... <mailto:1361177@...> * You may
visit my Personal ICQ Homepage: http://members.icq.com/1361177
<http://members.icq.com/1361177> For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
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http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html>

----------------------------------------------------

Argent, a natural panther's head sable, in chief three gouttes d'huile.



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius [mailto:mballetta@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:02 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Is history still compulsory?


Salve Clovis
I know that history has been written by the victors but history is
the one subject that should not be diluted, mellowed or sweetened to
cover the facts however unpallatable IMO.

Strangers, happily working together.
Vale
MAB



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
<gaiusgalerius@h...> wrote:

>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Clovis Cathmor" <cloviscathmor@s...>
> Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Is history still compulsory?
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:58:30 -0500
>
> Part of the problem is that they don't teach history but rather they
> marginalize historic events. I am a history and education major

and one of

> the major problems I have found in most history books is that they

are

> sanitized so much so as not to offend anyone on the left or right.

So there

> fore the end result is a politically correct and controlled

version. In the

> United States 27 states have rules for textbooks used in the states

schools.

> These 27 states decide what exactly our children learn as long as

it doesn't

> offend anyone. This in turn means that the historical truth is

sanitized and

> there are major issues and topics of discussion that are no longer
> discussed. I know that Current History books used in Middle and

Secondary

> schools have less information than they did when I was in Those

grades over

> 20 years ago. The sad part is that the books haven't gotten any

smaller.

>
> When you can cover a major part of US or European History in a

Paragraph,

> how many of the facts for the event are forgotten?
>
> Clovius
>
> Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Can you give some examples?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Salve,

That depends on exactly what you're studying. From the perspective of
military history the Civil War is perhaps one of the pivotal events of the
19th century. It is the arguably the fist modern and industrial and in many
was it predicts the carnage of the First World War. When Prussian General
Helmuth Karl von Moltke dismissively stated that nothing of value could be
learned from the American Civil War since it was "just two armed mobs
chasing each other around the country" he was missing a perfect opportunity
to witness exactly how wars were going to be fought for the next 50 years.
The American Civil War also laid the groundwork for the rise of the United
States as a world power.

Saying that the historical lessons of the American Civil War are irrelevant
to non-Americans would be like saying that Americans should not bother
studying the Russian Revolution, or the Napoleonic Wars, or the 100 years
War, etc. All history is of value, and any history curriculum should be as
broad as is feasible.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: R M [mailto:saucydemon2000@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:30 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Is history still compulsory?

Im honour bound to support the statements of Titus Octavius Pius. The
American Civil War, while terrible central to the American national
identity, was little more than a trade disruption to the rest of the world.
Slavery had already been outlawed in Europe... so the end of slavery in
America was not a new trend. Nor was America a world power at this time.
There is very little reason for the American Civil War to be a vital point
of curriculum in any nation outside the United States.

L.Licinius Murena

Kristoffer From <from@...> wrote:
"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" wrote:

> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic
> knowledge from many young people from around
> the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of
> world war 11.

Salve, Quinte Lani Pauline.

History is, in Sweden at least, one of the core subjects. Swedish,
english, mathematics, NO (physics, chemistry, biology and technology),
SO (history, social science, geography and religion) and *shudder*
sports are subjects you won't be able to avoid, given a theoretical
education, until university/college level studies.

However, for some reason our classes take up very little about the
american civil war, possibly for the same reason very few US classes
mention the wars of Karl XII, or Sweden's period as a superpower.
(Swedish word "stormakt", not really translatable into superpower, but
used all the same as an approximation.)

Don't look down on people because they're not familiar with subjects you
deem basic, consider why they wouldn't have learned it instead.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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haha.... as soon as I read the first line of your response I knew exactly what you were going to say. And I agree. I think I was really jsut trying to explain why it might not seem so crucial for students in other countries to study our Civil War. Frankly, I don't think that our students get enough coverage of it in school. I think that it is central to the American identity, and if we don't bother to teach it we might as well reevaluate that very identity.

"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <hadrianus@...> wrote:Salve,

That depends on exactly what you're studying. From the perspective of
military history the Civil War is perhaps one of the pivotal events of the
19th century. It is the arguably the fist modern and industrial and in many
was it predicts the carnage of the First World War. When Prussian General
Helmuth Karl von Moltke dismissively stated that nothing of value could be
learned from the American Civil War since it was "just two armed mobs
chasing each other around the country" he was missing a perfect opportunity
to witness exactly how wars were going to be fought for the next 50 years.
The American Civil War also laid the groundwork for the rise of the United
States as a world power.

Saying that the historical lessons of the American Civil War are irrelevant
to non-Americans would be like saying that Americans should not bother
studying the Russian Revolution, or the Napoleonic Wars, or the 100 years
War, etc. All history is of value, and any history curriculum should be as
broad as is feasible.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: R M [mailto:saucydemon2000@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:30 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Is history still compulsory?

Im honour bound to support the statements of Titus Octavius Pius. The
American Civil War, while terrible central to the American national
identity, was little more than a trade disruption to the rest of the world.
Slavery had already been outlawed in Europe... so the end of slavery in
America was not a new trend. Nor was America a world power at this time.
There is very little reason for the American Civil War to be a vital point
of curriculum in any nation outside the United States.

L.Licinius Murena

Kristoffer From <from@...> wrote:
"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" wrote:

> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic
> knowledge from many young people from around
> the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of
> world war 11.

Salve, Quinte Lani Pauline.

History is, in Sweden at least, one of the core subjects. Swedish,
english, mathematics, NO (physics, chemistry, biology and technology),
SO (history, social science, geography and religion) and *shudder*
sports are subjects you won't be able to avoid, given a theoretical
education, until university/college level studies.

However, for some reason our classes take up very little about the
american civil war, possibly for the same reason very few US classes
mention the wars of Karl XII, or Sweden's period as a superpower.
(Swedish word "stormakt", not really translatable into superpower, but
used all the same as an approximation.)

Don't look down on people because they're not familiar with subjects you
deem basic, consider why they wouldn't have learned it instead.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete:

L. Licinius Murena writes:

> There is little reason for the American Civil War to be a vital point of curriculum in any nation outside of the United States.

I think L. Licinius Murena and T. Octavius Pius have a point. As an American, I'm proud of my country, but as an avid reader of history, I'm also aware that world events did not always revolve around us (or Sweden or Britain or anywhere else).

I am second to none in my fascination with our own Civil War, however, I can understand why Europeans might not give it the same emphasis in their schools. After all, during the 1860's, Europe had its own problems, including the Italian and German wars of unification. It doesn't bother me that each country would emphasize its own history, as long as it doesn't degenerate into parochialism. The only thing that concerns me is that the history be objective, and not primarily a vehicle for enhancing the self-esteem of any particular group. And certainly, global events, such as World War II, should be a basic element in the course material of any institution of learning.

Valete.

L. Suetonius Nerva



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
> citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your

school

> systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
> subject only?
>
> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic knowledge from many young
> people from around the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of world war 11. That
> seems a little scary to me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus

Salve,

In the "People's Republic of Massachusetts," the only history courses
actually required by law (Massachusetts General Law, Title VII,
Chapter 71, section 2) are American History and civics (US and State
Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, and
Bill of Rights). However Title VII chapter 69, section 1 D, further
defines "history" to encompass "cultural, racial, and ethnic
diversity", history of the labor movement, drug, alcohol abuse
prevention, AIDS, ect.

Which say to me, thankfully I grew up in Maine. Our school system
may have been underfunded and understaffed, but we were required to
take a year of American history, a year of World History, American
Government, a course on Economics and either two one semester or one
full year elective social science course I took Crime and Punishment
(1/2 year) and geography (1/2 year) and since I had to fill a space
on my senior year schedule took a year of Maine history (The
alternative was a cooking class one semester and woodshop the next.
Given that my cooking skills are if the smoke detector goes off, it's
done and I'm lucky if I can hang a picture maybe I should have opted
the other way.)

Seems they had some bizzare idea that we were actually suppose to be
literate and at least have a passing knowledge that that the 9th
Amendment wasn't the same as the the # 9 Double Cheeseburger Value
Meal as McDonalds. <G>

Vale,

Q. Caasius Calvus

Salvete Tite, Marine et omnes,

Yes, we covered most European history over grades 10 and 11. I'm a
little rusty now on Sweeden but I remember she fought off and on for
200 years against Denmark , Poland , and Russia to become the master
of the Baltic with a door to the Atlantic. Names like Gustavus
Adolphus, Queen Christina, Charles Gustavus and Charles X1 still ring
a bell. Vikings and early lifestyles were a must. We took 1 full year
of American history in grade 12. Even in university science you had
to take at least a few arts courses, history, English, Philosophy
(fundementals of logic) for your reading and writing abilities.
Sadly, in Canada compulsory history is being dropped and things are
changing. It will be awful in a generation or two when many will not
know of Caesar, Cicero and the Roman world.

Just a word on the civil war. As indicated, there were many
significant "news" in that war; ironclad ships, Merrimac , the
Monitor (invented by a Swede I believe) repeating rifles, land mines,
first successful submarine attack (Hunley), concentration camps,
civilian involvement etc. Just the military technology alone is worth
the study. What's frustrating is that the Western, one of the most
popular movie types invented and popular all over the world in the
last 80 years has covered this civil war to a great extent.

Regards,

Quintus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> Titus Octavius Pius writes:
>
> > However, for some reason our classes take up very little about the
> > american civil war, possibly for the same reason very few US

classes

> > mention the wars of Karl XII, or Sweden's period as a superpower.
>
> And, in fact, I never learned anything about Swedish history while
> I was in high school in the US. It took studying the Napoleonic
> wars and watching "I Am Curious Blue" (or Yellow) to expand my
> knowledge of Sweden beyond somewhere in Scandanavia where the
> Vikings used to hang out and girls put candles in their hair
> for Christmas.
>
> However, before we give Quintus Lanius Paulinus too much of a
> hard time, I'll note that he's a Canadian and not a citizen
> of the US. He probably had to learn about the American Civil
> War (known as the War of Northern Aggression among my in-laws)
> in self defense. He also knows that General Brock kicked the
> American forces back across the Niagra river during the War
> of 1812, and like any other Canadian he probably has a perspective
> on that war that few Americans share.
>
> His point about the importance of basic knowledge concerning
> WW II stands. Anyone educated on this planet should know
> the basic facts about which nations were involved in that
> awful conflict.
>
> All that said, would you drop me a note offline and tell me
> more about Sweden's period as a superpower? I'd be interested.
>
> -- Marinus

Salvete,

I forgot to mention that I recently talked to some Russian and
Chinese friends who live here now and they told me the American Civil
war was covered in some detail in their countries. One can imagine
the particular slant but.... at least they knew of its existance.


General Brock's successes against the American invasions of 1812 were
largely due to an Indian leader, Tecumseh from Ohio. He sided with
the British and Canadians fighting a hell of a guerilla style war.
Historians here figure he was an instrumental figure in the conflict.
The irony is that to General Brock, there is a big monument similar
to Nelson's in the Niagra region. Tecumseh has a small plack on a
stone not much bigger than a barbeque.

Oh well, probably many of the Romans had the same sort of point after
Pompeii got all the honor and credit for crushing the Spartican
rebellion when much of that should have been for Crassus!

Regards,

Quintus

WOW!
I wish I was a little closer!
-M

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [ROMANISROMANORVM] Legio II, Lafe Arkansas, request for assistance
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:56:45 -0000
From: "caiusfabius" <SPQR_HQ@...>
Reply-To: ROMANISROMANORVM@yahoogroups.com
To: ROMANISROMANORVM@yahoogroups.com




God has smiled upon us at Legio II Augusta and the ISPA ....The
legion Is the recipient of a DONATION of 61 pallets of clay roofing
tiles! Approximately 5000 clay tiles (assorted tegulae, imbrices and
other tiles we have no idea where they go). And to top it all
off....they were made in Italy at the turn of the century! They are
an "s" barrel design and the right color.. it should give a
spectacular look to the barracks and any other building we can build
on site...We will try to get them all moved this week because the
nice lady said that " you have to take them all"....LOL Anyway she
couldnt give them away to anyone because all of the tiles and their
weight so we will be working on getting them moved to someones house
a few miles away.....Which brings me to the next question.......first
of october or november sometime we will be doing a major move of
these items about 60 miles to Lafe and need volunteers. Depending on
how construction goes( the walls and roof will have to be
substantially strengthened to support tile instead of wood) we will
be looking at a semi-modern work weekend around that time....Anyone
who wants experience putting on an antique clay tile roof will get
their chance. We here at legio II are very excited....the value of
these tiles are probably over $200,000 and we poor romans could never
afford such high end items... anyway thought I would share the good
news with everyone ....give a shout if you can help or have input ....
"If we cannot bring Lafe to Rome........Let us then bring Rome to
lafe....one tegulae at a time..."



Quintus Valerius

Legio II Augusta

ISPA



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--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, R M <saucydemon2000@y...> wrote:

> Im honour bound to support the statements of Titus Octavius Pius.
>The American Civil War, while terrible central to the American
>national identity, was little more than a trade disruption to the
>rest of the world. Slavery had already been outlawed in Europe... so
>the end of slavery in America was not a new trend. Nor was America a
>world power at this time. There is very little reason for the
>American Civil War to be a vital point of curriculum in any nation
>outside the United States.

Salve,

Actually it was a bit more than a "trade dispute." Slavery became
the "rally cry" in what started out as basically a dispute between
the authority of the US Federal Government and the individual
states. At the outset the general feeling in the North was, "See
ya, don't let the door hit you on the way out of the Union!" However
there were economic reasons why certain moneyed people didn't want
this to be. The north was dominated by textile industries. The
owners of those mills didn't want their source of cotton to suddenly
be under "foreign control" and even ::::GASP:::: TAXED! They didn't
care who did the picking as long as they had a cheap resource. They
had a good reason to want a war, it hurt their profits to not have a
war!

It didn't help matters than England decided to side with the
Confederacy which gave the Union the jitters with one eye on the
South and one eye on English controlled Canada. Remember the South
had the best generals and with genuine English support (had England
actually decided to do something about the Union naval blockade it
would have been a different story) coupled with homefield advantage
might have actually won the war simply by attrition. Afterall the
lesson of the Revolution that a numerically superior force could lose
a civil war because of foreign intervention and attrition wasn't lost
on Lincoln.

It was also the first "modern war" with machine guns, the concept
of "total war" with wholesale destruction of civilian population
centers (Sherman's March), the first ironclad ships, first mass
production of armaments.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Ave,

In California its mandatory. You can go to www.ctd.ca.gov and view
the California Standards for the Teaching Profession. And, I am
currently working on my second Masters Degree (this one in education)
so that I can be qualified to work as a teacher specializing in Socal
Studies (World History, US History, California History, American
Government and Economics).

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
> citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your

school

> systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
> subject only?
>
> Lately I have noticed a bad lack of basic knowledge from many young
> people from around the world who never had heard of the American
> Civil war to anything regarding the basics of world war 11. That
> seems a little scary to me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus

Salve Cornelio,

If you *really* want to make in impression, perform a taurobolium...

I think if you give an "impression" of being inside a mithraeum, that would
be the important thing. You could get a small camper, or a van, and decorate
the inside. I've never been to burning man, but I would love to some day.
Your idea reminded me of something I'd found searching the net that is at
burning man: http://www.carthedral.com

Bona Fortuna!
Valete

-----Original Message-----
From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus [mailto:ahenobarbus@...]
Sent: Thursday, 07 August, 2003 12:13
To: SodalitasMilitarium@yahoogroups.com
Cc: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Mobile Mithraeum

Having lucked out and been given a ticket to this year's Burning Man, I am
looking into the feasibility of quickly putting together some kind of
Mithraic recreation for this year's theme of "Beyond Belief." Unless some
other person is planning a better Mithraeum for Burning Man, I would like to
put together an informative experience about Mithras and its unacknowledged
influence on religions practiced today.
When Roman armies went on the march in the 3rd century, did they have some
kind of moblie shrine to Mithras when they went? Or was Mithraism only
practiced in the dedicated (stone and immobile) underground temples?
What I am thinking of is a shade structure/tent that has been enclosed and
decorated with art seen in a reconstruction of a Mithraic temple in England.
What would be the necessary ingredients for a mobile Mithraeum?
Where might I be able to find a costume, or at least appropriate headgear a
Mithraic priest? I have in mind a costume featured in Volume 2 of Osprey's
Roman Military dress.
Other than something called the Paris Liturgy (whose provenance I don't know
about) are there any other extant texts of the rituals of Mithras?
My biggest concerns are: time, as I have about 3 weeks to get this together
and money.
Any suggestions from reenactors or believers is welcomed.

Salvete popvle.
Im Kaeso Qvintvs Bellicvs, pater familias of gens Qvinta, from
Argentina province, in South America.
Well, the matter of this post is, that is too hard for me, to pay
the taxes to the republic, cause I think is too expensive.
Why the Senate dont give us the possibility to be full citizens
without paying taxes?
Almost, for the plebeian non equites familys...
Well, sorry for my pathetic english, and I wish that this post dont
be offensive for the goodwill of the republic and the august Senate.
Valete!
K.Q.Bellicvs.

- S.P.Q.R. -

Salvete,

I have been busy with local Chamber of Commerce business for the last two
evenings and am just now catching up on the "Dangers to the Religio" thread on
the Religio list. It is sad to see the same anger and disagreements going on,
and on, and on.

Citizens, there IS indeed danger to the Religio Romana. That danger is
actually a simple one - Not understanding the realities of our community, and
refusing to live with that reality.

The reality is that there are in essence two types of "reconstructionism" in
the Religio Romana. The first type can be termed as "Moderate
Reconstructionism", and the second as "Fundamentalist Reconstructionism." For the most part,
these two points of view within the Religio function much in the same way as do
the 'moderate' and 'fundamentalist' factions within most other religions. (We
didn't invent these two impulses, folks!)

Several Religio list posters have recently used 'food analogies' to describe
the desirability of blending or not blending different ideas. This food model
is actually useful, since it allows ideas to be presented that aren't so
loaded with emotion.

As it happens, "Roman Cooking" and the views that may be had of it could
easily be compared to what we know about, and *think about* the Religio. I'll use
it here to try and describe the differences between our current "Moderates"
and "Fundamentalists."

****************************************
TWO VIEWS ON ROMAN COOKING

There are something like 478 surviving Roman recipes from Apicius, and a few
more from other authors. (We have much more primary source material on Roman
cooking than we do on the Religio.) That is a lot, but even so we can't come
close to knowing *everything* about Roman cooking, through all of it's various
ages and fashions.

If the ideas on reconstructing Roman cooking were the same as we have on
Religion, we would right now be facing two contrasting views on Roman food...

I. A Moderate View of Roman Cooking

Traditional ancient recipes are wonderful, but do have shortcomings. Some are
simply repugnant to modern diners. (Eating Dormice?) Others have ingredients
that are not available in modern times. Sometimes many traditional ingredients
are on hand, but do not match existing recipes. We know what the Romans ate,
and what they did not eat. We know 'generally' how they prepared food, and
'generally' how they served and consumed it. We know what spices they used, what
dinnerware and utensils, etc. So, as long as those general guidelines are used
carefully, "Roman cooking and dining" can be made a large and enriching field
that can continue to live and grow. If an ancient recipe calls for pork,
cumin and figs, and you prefer to have lamb, pine nuts and dates, you're still
eating like the Romans ate. Sometimes you want an exact ancient recipe... but
sometimes not and that's okay. Besides, who can be sure that no one in ancient
Rome ever ate lamb, pine nuts, and dates together, just because it's something
Apicius didn't record? So long as you don't add things the Romans didn't have,
(such as tomatoes, maize, tofu, or Cajun seasonings) you are making a valid
attempt to cook in the Roman style. It is possible to add new knowledge to the
old recipes so long as the two are kept separate, and with both together the
"Roman style" of cuisine is a field without limit.


II. A Fundamentalist View of Roman Cooking

If ancient traditions are changed in any way, they are no longer ancient
traditions. Roman cooking may be reconstructed *only* if we do exactly what we can
prove the ancients did, and *nothing more*. Ever. If you cook by following a
known recipe from Apicius, and follow it exactly, you are doing Roman cooking.
If you just prepare some contemporary Roman items and spices, without
following a recipe from Apicius exactly, *you are merely playing with ingredients in
a meaningless way.* That's not Roman - and such things have no place in Roman
cooking. Thinking that substitutions can be made, or new recipes can be
created, is dangerous to the traditions of Roman cuisine. Sometimes people don't
like some of the ancient recipes or ingredients, like Dormice, or Garum, and
want to substitute other things, or even combine ancient ingredients to make new
recipes. This is simply proof that the individual cares nothing for real
Tradition, and "is not Roman enough." Such people should not be involved in Roman
cooking in any way.

(end of example)

******************************************

I could have added a third view, "Liberal Roman Cooking," where one might
advocate that it would be cool to mix Roman food with modern Mexican food, or
Japanese food, or whatever... but really we haven't had ANYONE in Nova Roma make
such suggestions about the Religio. I can't think of a single instance where
anyone in Nova Roma has ever suggested any sort religion other than "moderate"
or "fundamentalist" reconstructionism.

Unfortunately, these two views of what reconstructionism is all about are
starting to tear the Religio itself apart. We have been unable to reconcile the
two views, or "agree to disagree."

Interestingly enough, when Nova Roma was founded, it was thought that both
views on the Relgio would be able to live in harmony. The State Rituals (Roman
festivals, and state rites) would be "Fundamentalist" in order to best preserve
the traditions of the Mos Maiorum, and the Peace of the Gods. (Pax Deorum.)
Away from the major public state rituals, Citizens would have more freedom. If
one wanted to worship at their Lararium, or a temple or shrine in a "Moderate"
way, (with words, offerings or whatever not contained exactly in a primary
source) it would be accepted so long as it contained ideas that were all Roman,
and done in Roman style.

After all, both the "moderate" and "fundamentalist" views agree that the
primary resource material is good and should be done. The difference is in whether
they are the "only" things done, or whether other things can be done as well,
so long as they conform to known Roman styles in all ways.

It really WAS all planned, folks. Please do check the founding document for
the Religio, written before Nova Roma was officially founded: <A HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/declaration_religio.html">
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/declaration_religio.html</A>

I specifically point to the paragraph:

"We further affirm that rites and worship within the Roman Pagan may be
approached in many ways. In this manner the spiritual needs of all practicing
individuals may be fulfilled. These various approaches may include group or
individual worship, philosophical practice focusing on prayer and contemplation,
purely historical reconstruction of ancient ritual form, as well as forms of
modern rites and worship that adapt ancient practices and ideals."

Folks, we KNEW that people of different religious views would be here... and
we did our best to make a place where they would all be welcome and be able to
find expression for their beliefs about the Religio. The only thing we wanted
to make sure of was that the major state rituals would remain as exactly
traditional as possible. We honestly, (and naively) thought the rest would settle
itself out. After all - people interested in Roman religion were so scarce
they couldn't help but work out their differences if they wanted their Religion
to continue!

Perhaps we were fools. But we did what we could with what we had, and I'm
still proud of what was done, even if all of you are at each others throats. (And
mine, half the time!)

I still can't help but to have hope. Like MLK Jr., I still "Have a Dream". I
dream of a New Rome where the rites to the major state rituals to the Gods are
done with historical accuracy, in Latin so that the Mos Maiorum and Pax
Deorum may be preserved for Aeternitas. I also dream of a New Rome where Citizens
have the freedom to do what is meaningful for them religiously, and to even
create new "Roman style" rites, so long as non-historical elements are not
introduced.

I have a dream where we will recognize that the two kinds of
reconstructionism, "moderate" and "fundamentalist" both have value even though they see key
issues differently; even such foundational ideas as the necessity of live
sacrifice, and the idea that the Gods will only accept rituals done with the exact
ancient wording, and without error.

I can't stop you from fighting, folks. Your anger and positions are far too
entrenched for me, *or even the Collegium Pontificum* to do anything about it.
Either you'll figure out a way to live together, or the two "views" of Roman
Reconstructionism will continue to try to push each other out of NR and claim
it exclusively. That fight will destroy Nova Roma one way or another, even if
one side manages to "win." To my knowledge NO religion has ever been able to
to completely eliminate either of its 'moderate' or 'fundamentalist' factions.
We'll be no different no matter how much we fight.

For my part, I appreciate all of you. Yes, even those of you that completely
and utterly hate my guts, and would do anything to see me completely out of
Nova Roma. You are ROMANS, each and every one of you. My biggest dream of all
was that you would be together, and that you would at least *try* to make good
what was lost. That dream at least has come true. For me it's enough and its
the reason why I stay here.

If anyone wants me to, I am willing to volunteer my services to help heal the
growing rift between us. Despise me; think I'm an idiot; but I built this
place. I believe I can continue that process if folks will allow that to happen.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pater Patriae, Pontifex Maximus












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Friend Quintus Lanius,

> I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
> citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your school
> systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
> subject only?

Being still a student myself, for my school district (a public school district, at that), it is still a requirement that students intending to graduate have at least 4 social studies credits, which break down into:

1 Modern World History, 1 US History, 1 Government, and 1 History Elective (in my case, Ancient Civilizations).

To add to that, a lot of students take other classes which are considered social studies classes, such as ROTC and sociology.

I can also say for all grades leading up to 9th grade, you are generally required to at least sit through one social studies class per year. So I wouldn't say social studies are becoming electives in my district, though they do seem to put a greater emphasis on math and sciences, and care less and less about the arts.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Civis Privatus

Sp. Postumius Omnibus SPD

Salvete,

Many pardons on the name listed on my last message. I forgot to switch the names over.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Civis Privatus

Cassius,
If you had read the thread you might have noticed that
some people find the term "Fundementalist" that you
used, along with the term "Bible Thumper" that was
being used by one of your "modarates" to be offensive.
I have gotten some private mail complaing about the
term you are using.

Is there any reason you are dragging a dispute from
the Religio list to the Main List? Isn't having one
list heated up enough?

--- cassius622@... wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I have been busy with local Chamber of Commerce
> business for the last two
> evenings and am just now catching up on the "Dangers
> to the Religio" thread on
> the Religio list. It is sad to see the same anger
> and disagreements going on,
> and on, and on.
>
> Citizens, there IS indeed danger to the Religio
> Romana. That danger is
> actually a simple one - Not understanding the
> realities of our community, and
> refusing to live with that reality.
>
> The reality is that there are in essence two types
> of "reconstructionism" in
> the Religio Romana. The first type can be termed as
> "Moderate
> Reconstructionism", and the second as
> "Fundamentalist Reconstructionism." For the most
> part,
> these two points of view within the Religio function
> much in the same way as do
> the 'moderate' and 'fundamentalist' factions within
> most other religions. (We
> didn't invent these two impulses, folks!)
>
> Several Religio list posters have recently used
> 'food analogies' to describe
> the desirability of blending or not blending
> different ideas. This food model
> is actually useful, since it allows ideas to be
> presented that aren't so
> loaded with emotion.
>
> As it happens, "Roman Cooking" and the views that
> may be had of it could
> easily be compared to what we know about, and *think
> about* the Religio. I'll use
> it here to try and describe the differences between
> our current "Moderates"
> and "Fundamentalists."
>
> ****************************************
> TWO VIEWS ON ROMAN COOKING
>
> There are something like 478 surviving Roman recipes
> from Apicius, and a few
> more from other authors. (We have much more primary
> source material on Roman
> cooking than we do on the Religio.) That is a lot,
> but even so we can't come
> close to knowing *everything* about Roman cooking,
> through all of it's various
> ages and fashions.
>
> If the ideas on reconstructing Roman cooking were
> the same as we have on
> Religion, we would right now be facing two
> contrasting views on Roman food...
>
> I. A Moderate View of Roman Cooking
>
> Traditional ancient recipes are wonderful, but do
> have shortcomings. Some are
> simply repugnant to modern diners. (Eating Dormice?)
> Others have ingredients
> that are not available in modern times. Sometimes
> many traditional ingredients
> are on hand, but do not match existing recipes. We
> know what the Romans ate,
> and what they did not eat. We know 'generally' how
> they prepared food, and
> 'generally' how they served and consumed it. We know
> what spices they used, what
> dinnerware and utensils, etc. So, as long as those
> general guidelines are used
> carefully, "Roman cooking and dining" can be made a
> large and enriching field
> that can continue to live and grow. If an ancient
> recipe calls for pork,
> cumin and figs, and you prefer to have lamb, pine
> nuts and dates, you're still
> eating like the Romans ate. Sometimes you want an
> exact ancient recipe... but
> sometimes not and that's okay. Besides, who can be
> sure that no one in ancient
> Rome ever ate lamb, pine nuts, and dates together,
> just because it's something
> Apicius didn't record? So long as you don't add
> things the Romans didn't have,
> (such as tomatoes, maize, tofu, or Cajun seasonings)
> you are making a valid
> attempt to cook in the Roman style. It is possible
> to add new knowledge to the
> old recipes so long as the two are kept separate,
> and with both together the
> "Roman style" of cuisine is a field without limit.
>
>
> II. A Fundamentalist View of Roman Cooking
>
> If ancient traditions are changed in any way, they
> are no longer ancient
> traditions. Roman cooking may be reconstructed
> *only* if we do exactly what we can
> prove the ancients did, and *nothing more*. Ever. If
> you cook by following a
> known recipe from Apicius, and follow it exactly,
> you are doing Roman cooking.
> If you just prepare some contemporary Roman items
> and spices, without
> following a recipe from Apicius exactly, *you are
> merely playing with ingredients in
> a meaningless way.* That's not Roman - and such
> things have no place in Roman
> cooking. Thinking that substitutions can be made, or
> new recipes can be
> created, is dangerous to the traditions of Roman
> cuisine. Sometimes people don't
> like some of the ancient recipes or ingredients,
> like Dormice, or Garum, and
> want to substitute other things, or even combine
> ancient ingredients to make new
> recipes. This is simply proof that the individual
> cares nothing for real
> Tradition, and "is not Roman enough." Such people
> should not be involved in Roman
> cooking in any way.
>
> (end of example)
>
> ******************************************
>
> I could have added a third view, "Liberal Roman
> Cooking," where one might
> advocate that it would be cool to mix Roman food
> with modern Mexican food, or
> Japanese food, or whatever... but really we haven't
> had ANYONE in Nova Roma make
> such suggestions about the Religio. I can't think of
> a single instance where
> anyone in Nova Roma has ever suggested any sort
> religion other than "moderate"
> or "fundamentalist" reconstructionism.
>
> Unfortunately, these two views of what
> reconstructionism is all about are
> starting to tear the Religio itself apart. We have
> been unable to reconcile the
> two views, or "agree to disagree."
>
> Interestingly enough, when Nova Roma was founded, it
> was thought that both
> views on the Relgio would be able to live in
> harmony. The State Rituals (Roman
> festivals, and state rites) would be
> "Fundamentalist" in order to best preserve
> the traditions of the Mos Maiorum, and the Peace of
> the Gods. (Pax Deorum.)
> Away from the major public state rituals, Citizens
> would have more freedom. If
> one wanted to worship at their Lararium, or a temple
> or shrine in a "Moderate"
> way, (with words, offerings or whatever not
> contained exactly in a primary
> source) it would be accepted so long as it contained
> ideas that were all Roman,
> and done in Roman style.
>
> After all, both the "moderate" and "fundamentalist"
> views agree that the
> primary resource material is good and should be
> done. The difference is in whether
> they are the "only" things done, or whether other
> things can be done as well,
> so long as they conform to known Roman styles in all
> ways.
>
> It really WAS all planned, folks. Please do check
> the founding document for
> the Religio, written before Nova Roma was officially
> founded: <A
>

HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/declaration_religio.html">

>

http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/declaration_religio.html</A>

>
> I specifically point to the paragraph:
>
> "We further affirm that rites and worship within the
> Roman Pagan may be
> approached in many ways. In this manner the
> spiritual needs of all practicing
> individuals may be fulfilled. These various
> approaches may include group or
> individual worship, philosophical practice focusing
> on prayer and contemplation,
> purely historical reconstruction of ancient ritual
> form, as well as forms of
> modern rites and worship that adapt ancient
> practices and ideals."
>
> Folks, we KNEW that people of different religious
> views would be here... and
> we did our best to make a place where they would all
> be welcome and be able to
> find expression for their beliefs about the Religio.
> The only thing we wanted
> to make sure of was that the major state rituals
> would remain as exactly
> traditional as possible. We honestly, (and naively)
> thought the rest would settle
> itself out. After all - people interested in Roman
> religion were so scarce
> they couldn't help but work out their differences if
> they wanted their Religion
> to continue!
>
> Perhaps we were fools. But we did what we could with
> what we had, and I'm
> still proud of what was done, even if all of you are
> at each others throats. (And
> mine, half the time!)
>
> I still can't help but to have hope. Like MLK Jr., I
> still "Have a Dream". I
> dream of a New Rome where the rites to the major
> state rituals to the Gods are
> done with historical accuracy, in Latin so that the
> Mos Maiorum and Pax
> Deorum may be preserved for Aeternitas. I also dream
> of a New Rome where Citizens
> have the freedom to do what is meaningful for them
> religiously, and to even
> create new "Roman style" rites, so long as
> non-historical elements are not
> introduced.
>
> I have a dream where we will recognize that the two
> kinds of
> reconstructionism, "moderate" and "fundamentalist"
> both have value even though they see key
> issues differently; even such foundational ideas as
> the necessity of live
> sacrifice, and the idea that the Gods will only
> accept rituals done with the exact
> ancient wording, and without error.
>
> I can't stop you from fighting, folks. Your anger
> and positions are far too
> entrenched for me, *or even the Collegium
> Pontificum* to do anything about it.
> Either you'll figure out a way to live together, or
> the two "views" of Roman
> Reconstructionism will continue to try to push each
> other out of NR and claim
> it exclusively. That fight will destroy Nova Roma
> one way or another, even if
> one side manages to "win." To my knowledge NO
> religion has ever been able to
> to completely eliminate either of its 'moderate' or
> 'fundamentalist' factions.
> We'll be no different no matter how much we fight.
>
> For my part, I appreciate all of you. Yes, even
> those of you that completely
> and utterly hate my guts, and would do anything to
> see me completely out of
> Nova Roma. You are ROMANS, each and every one of
> you. My biggest dream of all
> was that you would be together, and that you would
> at least *try* to make good
> what was lost. That dream at least has come true.
> For me it's enough and its
> the reason why I stay here.
>
> If anyone wants me to, I am willing to volunteer my
> services to help heal the
> growing rift between us. Despise me; think I'm an
> idiot; but I built this
> place. I believe I can continue that process if
> folks will allow that to happen.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pater Patriae, Pontifex Maximus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Salve Romans

"There is very little reason for the American Civil War to be a vital point of curriculum in any nation outside the United States"

The German General staff felt the same way in the 19th century about the American Civil War and what did this get them and the youth of Europe?

The Marne
The Somme
Ypres
Tannenberg
Verdun
Gallipoli
Jutland
unrestricted submarine warfare

and the death of over 10 million men in combat that left a gaping chasm in the social and economic life of the postwar world and a generation buried
In Flanders Fields
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Not to mention Hitler!!!

Ever here "those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it"

Pax

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
"Malum consilium quod mutari non potest."

The Schlieffen Plan comes to mine




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve that MIND

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:01 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Not learning the lessions that history teaches


Salve Romans

"There is very little reason for the American Civil War to be a vital point of curriculum in any nation outside the United States"

The German General staff felt the same way in the 19th century about the American Civil War and what did this get them and the youth of Europe?

The Marne
The Somme
Ypres
Tannenberg
Verdun
Gallipoli
Jutland
unrestricted submarine warfare

and the death of over 10 million men in combat that left a gaping chasm in the social and economic life of the postwar world and a generation buried
In Flanders Fields
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Not to mention Hitler!!!

Ever here "those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it"

Pax

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
"Malum consilium quod mutari non potest."

The Schlieffen Plan comes to mine




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

And now a liitle more to the west and then a southern detours on our
virtual Gallic holiday. Here are two links dealing with Graeco-Roman
Masillia (Marseilles):

The Museum of the Roman Dock:

http://www.culture.fr/culture/archeosm/archeosom/en/docks-m.htm

Greek Marseilles:

http://www.culture.fr/culture/arcnat/entremont/en/gaulois_mar2.htm

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Drusus:

The Pontifex Maximus was simply doing his job. You and I, and others have been lamenting for him to be a presence and 'do something.' Well now he is doing it! He is living up to his responsibility and he is taking charge of the situation, and for that he has my utmost respect.

He has brought the discussion here because the Religio is a part of Nova Roma, an essential part. Without the Religio there would be no Nova Roma. The Religio should not be relegated to 'just another list for those interested.' More discussion on the State Religion needs to be done on the State mailing list. You yourself called for more respect for the Religio, yet you are critical of the Pontifex Maximus in all our public forums. Is it traditional and customary for a senator to publicly attack the Highest Priest within Nova Roma? That is a violation of the virtue of auctoritas.

I fully support the statements of Cassius. I am here because I love Rome, and wish to re-build Rome. I come to Nova Roma with the best of intentions, and with enthusiam and desire to serve. I come to the Religio with a desire to please the Gods. I feel from your posts Drusus that you too share a love for Rome, and a desire to serve the Gods. I propose that you read what Cassius has to say. Instead of hardening yourself and further perpetuating the conflict take in his words, and help strengthen us as a people, instead of spreading more conflict.

Vale;

G. Modius Athanasius
Flamen Pomonalis

In a message dated 8/7/2003 11:42:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lsicinius@... writes:

>
>
> Cassius,
> If you had read the thread you might have noticed that
> some people find the term "Fundementalist" that you
> used, along with the term "Bible Thumper" that was
> being used by one of your "modarates" to be offensive.
> I have gotten some private mail complaing about the
> term you are using.
>
> Is there any reason you are dragging a dispute from
> the Religio list to the Main List? Isn't having one
> list heated up enough?
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen

--- AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:

> Drusus:
>
> The Pontifex Maximus was simply doing his job. You
> and I, and others have been lamenting for him to be
> a presence and 'do something.' Well now he is doing
> it! He is living up to his responsibility and he is
> taking charge of the situation, and for that he has
> my utmost respect.
>
> He has brought the discussion here because the
> Religio is a part of Nova Roma, an essential part.
> Without the Religio there would be no Nova Roma.
> The Religio should not be relegated to 'just another
> list for those interested.' More discussion on the
> State Religion needs to be done on the State mailing
> list. You yourself called for more respect for the
> Religio, yet you are critical of the Pontifex
> Maximus in all our public forums. Is it traditional
> and customary for a senator to publicly attack the
> Highest Priest within Nova Roma? That is a
> violation of the virtue of auctoritas.

I do seem to recall some Augurs by the names of
Pompieus and Cicero, and a Pontif Maximus named Caesar
who had a rather public dispute.

The Pontiff Maximus applied a term to me that I along
with most strict reconstructionlists find offensive.
There is also a virtue called Dignitas, and that term
violates it.

I Have no intention of kissing the PM's ring after he
insulted me and many others.




=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Salvete:

I just read today in the Wall Street Journal, in Mossberg's Mailbox, an
answer to a question of how to get rid of those grey
pop-ups, and he wrote the following:

These irritating, intrusive ads force their way into your PC via a
legitimate feature of Windows that was designed to allow network
administrators to communicate with network users. This messaging method is
different from instant messaging programs like AOL Instant Messenger or
Windows Messenger. You can disable the ads by shutting down the messaging
conduit they use, without affecting your instant-messaging activities.
Here's how:

First, go to the Start Menu, and open the Control Panel. Open the item
called "administrative tools". Then, double-click on the choice called
"services". In the long list of services that is displayed, locate the
entry called "messenger" and double-click on it.

A tabbed window will open. In the "General" tab, you will see an option
called "Startup Type". Microsoft sets this option to "Automatic". You
should change that. To do so, just click on the arrow at the right to
display the list of choices, and select "Disabled". Then click "OK" at the
bottom of that window, and close all the other windows you've opened in this
process by clicking the "X" in the upper right hand corner.




Now my question, for those who know, if I do that wouldn't it block
Microsoft updates that pop up often times (those updates that popup in the
right bottom corner), and if so is it important anyway?

Valete

C. Galerius Peregrinator

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Drusus:

You have publicly insulted him every opportunity you can find both on the
Religio list and in the Back Alley. At one time you had something to say, and I
took time to listen. However, your angle as of late has been to attack attack
attack, and its getting old.

Intent is an important thing. I DO NOT feel for one-second that Cassius had
the intent of harm by using the word fundamentalist Vs strict. His intent was
to "build bridges" and to heal the wounds that both sides suffer. You put
harmful intent to his words that were simply not present, and I think that is
wrong of you.

G. Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 8/8/2003 12:29:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lsicinius@... writes:
The Pontiff Maximus applied a term to me that I along
with most strict reconstructionlists find offensive.
There is also a virtue called Dignitas, and that term
violates it.

I Have no intention of kissing the PM's ring after he
insulted me and many others.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope it shouldn't :) That little thing in the right hand corner is
Automatic Update which is a completely different thing. You can turn it
off by going to system panel in control panel and going to the
Automatic Updates tab :)
Alexandria Iulia Agrippa

Salve,

I used the term "fundamentalist" only because it is a very common and
understandable term that is used by *many* religions today. It is not a derogatory
term in itself; many millions of people around the world proudly consider
themselves as 'fundamentalists' of one stripe or another - it simply means that they
are focused on the "fundamentals" of a particular tradition.

If anyone feels the term is derogatory, it can easily be substituted with the
terms "orthodox" or perhaps "reform". I didn't use either of those terms
since they are more often used for specific sects (such as the Greek Orthodox
Church), but truly ANY term which conveys someone's personal take on such a
religious view may be used.

Why bring the situation to the main list? Because it is *important*. We've
come to the point where the Religio is not about the Gods, but about attacking
anyone who doesn't believe as "we" do. Those with "moderate" spend their time
calling those of "orthodox" (there, is that better?) beliefs Nazis or
Bible-thumpers... while those of "orthodox" belief are spending their time baiting the
moderates, moving their posts to the Back Alley for some fun general ridicule,
and then happily proclaiming "Yay! We got rid of another one!" When someone
quits the list (and/or NR) because they're disgusted with all the fighting
and juvenile behavior.

This nonsense has got to stop. We have to realize that there will always be
two views on the Religio, and that one side will never permanently destroy the
other. Again, no other religion has managed to truly eliminate either the
"moderate" or "reform" (or is that term better for you, Drusus?) factions, and
we're unlikely to be the first. Better to recognize that now and live with
reality than continue to ignore it.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

L. Sicinius Drusus writes:
If you had read the thread you might have noticed that
some people find the term "Fundementalist" that you
used, along with the term "Bible Thumper" that was
being used by one of your "modarates" to be offensive.
I have gotten some private mail complaing about the
term you are using.

Is there any reason you are dragging a dispute from
the Religio list to the Main List? Isn't having one
list heated up enough?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One thing I think Students and we all in America should realize also is that
Social Studies and History are two different subjects
even thought the powers to be try and classify them under the same heading.
In the State of Indiana they are changing the structure of the teaching
license and classifying US History and Western Civilization as the same
course curriculum, another step that I think diminishes the need for a
separate History curriculum. Also please not that in most schools they do
not desire history majors to teach history they want social studies majors
which in most cases means people who are more focused on the social sciences
such as sociology etc.. and not someone who has a true history background.
Kind of scary in a time when we say no child should be left back and the
desire for accountability on teachers and the demand that they be have
degrees in the area they are teaching.


Clovius

Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James


We walk together on sacred ground.
Black feet, white feet, treading softly on the land.
Mother Kuniya moves beneath our feet,
the Tjukurpa/Creation Law breathes life
into the sacred landscape of Uluru.

White guides and Anangu guides, working together. We stand firm in the
laws of the two cultures, keeping the cultural and natural heritage strong.
Our feet on sacred ground our hands reach up to hold the new circle of life;
The campfire, the waterhole, where people of all cultures can meet and
share.


----------------------------------------------------

Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 1361177 or, * Page me online through my
Personal Communication Center: < http://www.icq.com/1361177> (go there and
try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen
1361177@... <mailto:1361177@...> * You may
visit my Personal ICQ Homepage: http://members.icq.com/1361177
<http://members.icq.com/1361177> For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/
<http://www.icq.com/> For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: <
http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html>

----------------------------------------------------

Argent, a natural panther's head sable, in chief three gouttes d'huile.



-----Original Message-----
From: M. Tullius Cicero [mailto:postumius@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:27 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Is history still compulsory?


My Friend Quintus Lanius,

> I just have a question for the ML and back alley for all our NR
> citizens around the world. Is history still compulsory in your school
> systems or is it gradually being phased to more of an elective
> subject only?

Being still a student myself, for my school district (a public school
district, at that), it is still a requirement that students intending to
graduate have at least 4 social studies credits, which break down into:

1 Modern World History, 1 US History, 1 Government, and 1 History Elective
(in my case, Ancient Civilizations).

To add to that, a lot of students take other classes which are considered
social studies classes, such as ROTC and sociology.

I can also say for all grades leading up to 9th grade, you are generally
required to at least sit through one social studies class per year. So I
wouldn't say social studies are becoming electives in my district, though
they do seem to put a greater emphasis on math and sciences, and care less
and less about the arts.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Civis Privatus


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I always wanted to hear the other side of the story as well like the
British version of the Boston Tea Party and the whole revolution. No
doubt they thought the colonists were a bunch of rebel upstarts and
Benedict Arnold a patriot. It all depends on who wins.

;)

"Ka ngayula kuwari alatji wangkanyi nganampa ngura ngangatja.
Kulila, nganana tjukurtja tjunkunytja iriti ngura nganampa winki
Australiala winki tjukuritja tjunkunytja - kulila!"

"I am speaking to you now, this is our land.
Listen to us, our Dreaming Creation Law was buried deep in this land
from the beginning, all over Australia our sacred Law was laid down -
Listen!"







--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Clovis Cathmor"
<cloviscathmor@s...> wrote:

> Salve Marcus,
>
> I agree whole heartedly with you. As do most of my professors and

most good

> historians.
> The key is getting the Censors to leave history to be taught based

on what

> actually happened
> and not as a feel good thing much like it has become. If we were

all true

> students of history and
> its good and bad acts and events the world would be a much better

place and

> we would probably see
> major differences in who runs this and any other country.
>
> Clovius
>
> Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James
>
>
> We walk together on sacred ground.
> Black feet, white feet, treading softly on the land.
> Mother Kuniya moves beneath our feet,
> the Tjukurpa/Creation Law breathes life
> into the sacred landscape of Uluru.
>
> White guides and Anangu guides, working together. We stand

firm in the

> laws of the two cultures, keeping the cultural and natural

heritage strong.

> Our feet on sacred ground our hands reach up to hold the new circle

of life;

> The campfire, the waterhole, where people of all cultures can meet

and

> share.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 1361177 or, * Page me online

through my

> Personal Communication Center: < http://www.icq.com/1361177> (go

there and

> try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen
> 1361177@p... <mailto:1361177@p...> * You may
> visit my Personal ICQ Homepage: http://members.icq.com/1361177
> <http://members.icq.com/1361177> For downloading ICQ at

http://www.icq.com/

> <http://www.icq.com/> For adding similar signatures to your e-mail

go to: <

> http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> Argent, a natural panther's head sable, in chief three

gouttes d'huile.

>
>
>
> snip

Dear Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pater Patriae, Pontifex Maximus,

The time and effort you gave this post is applauded.
It may just be your job but there is more seemingly than plain duty
in the sentiment that comes across to me.

I am not up to date on the "hate" issues and honestly don't want to
be updated, lol. People make mistakes and words can be taken out of
context and I'm sure we have all been on both sides of that issue.
Doing what is right in the wake of such events is what makes the
difference and separates those who take the road less traveled from
the base and common. Taking responsibility, attention to honor and
duty in earnest is more than commendable; it is noble in my oppinion
and admirable. A position we should all endeavor to emulate and
strive.

There are at least one pair of ears that your words have reached but
I happen to be the sentimental spiritual oddball. You have a dream?
Todays dreams can be tomorrows realities but when it comes to
everyone getting along, don't hold your breath. Not everyone is
ready to hug that tree like me. Controlled tollerance would be a
nice step up but c'est la vie or better yet, c'est la guerre and yet
the last of my cliche's Che Sara' Sara'.

Tam facti quam animi,
M. A. B.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I have been busy with local Chamber of Commerce business for the
last two
> evenings and am just now catching up on the "Dangers to the
Religio" thread on
> the Religio list. It is sad to see the same anger and disagreements
going on,
> and on, and on.
>
> Citizens, there IS indeed danger to the Religio Romana. That danger
is
> actually a simple one - Not understanding the realities of our
community, and
> refusing to live with that reality.
>
> The reality is that there are in essence two types
of "reconstructionism" in
> the Religio Romana. The first type can be termed as "Moderate
> Reconstructionism", and the second as "Fundamentalist
Reconstructionism." For the most part,
> these two points of view within the Religio function much in the
same way as do
> the 'moderate' and 'fundamentalist' factions within most other
religions. (We
> didn't invent these two impulses, folks!)
>
> Several Religio list posters have recently used 'food analogies'
to describe
> the desirability of blending or not blending different ideas. This
food model
> is actually useful, since it allows ideas to be presented that
aren't so
> loaded with emotion.
>
> As it happens, "Roman Cooking" and the views that may be had of it
could
> easily be compared to what we know about, and *think about* the
Religio. I'll use
> it here to try and describe the differences between our
current "Moderates"
> and "Fundamentalists."
>
> ****************************************
> TWO VIEWS ON ROMAN COOKING
>
> There are something like 478 surviving Roman recipes from Apicius,
and a few
> more from other authors. (We have much more primary source material
on Roman
> cooking than we do on the Religio.) That is a lot, but even so we
can't come
> close to knowing *everything* about Roman cooking, through all of
it's various
> ages and fashions.
>
> If the ideas on reconstructing Roman cooking were the same as we
have on
> Religion, we would right now be facing two contrasting views on
Roman food...
>
> I. A Moderate View of Roman Cooking
>
> Traditional ancient recipes are wonderful, but do have
shortcomings. Some are
> simply repugnant to modern diners. (Eating Dormice?) Others have
ingredients
> that are not available in modern times. Sometimes many traditional
ingredients
> are on hand, but do not match existing recipes. We know what the
Romans ate,
> and what they did not eat. We know 'generally' how they prepared
food, and
> 'generally' how they served and consumed it. We know what spices
they used, what
> dinnerware and utensils, etc. So, as long as those general
guidelines are used
> carefully, "Roman cooking and dining" can be made a large and
enriching field
> that can continue to live and grow. If an ancient recipe calls for
pork,
> cumin and figs, and you prefer to have lamb, pine nuts and dates,
you're still
> eating like the Romans ate. Sometimes you want an exact ancient
recipe... but
> sometimes not and that's okay. Besides, who can be sure that no one
in ancient
> Rome ever ate lamb, pine nuts, and dates together, just because
it's something
> Apicius didn't record? So long as you don't add things the Romans
didn't have,
> (such as tomatoes, maize, tofu, or Cajun seasonings) you are making
a valid
> attempt to cook in the Roman style. It is possible to add new
knowledge to the
> old recipes so long as the two are kept separate, and with both
together the
> "Roman style" of cuisine is a field without limit.
>
>
> II. A Fundamentalist View of Roman Cooking
>
> If ancient traditions are changed in any way, they are no longer
ancient
> traditions. Roman cooking may be reconstructed *only* if we do
exactly what we can
> prove the ancients did, and *nothing more*. Ever. If you cook by
following a
> known recipe from Apicius, and follow it exactly, you are doing
Roman cooking.
> If you just prepare some contemporary Roman items and spices,
without
> following a recipe from Apicius exactly, *you are merely playing
with ingredients in
> a meaningless way.* That's not Roman - and such things have no
place in Roman
> cooking. Thinking that substitutions can be made, or new recipes
can be
> created, is dangerous to the traditions of Roman cuisine. Sometimes
people don't
> like some of the ancient recipes or ingredients, like Dormice, or
Garum, and
> want to substitute other things, or even combine ancient
ingredients to make new
> recipes. This is simply proof that the individual cares nothing for
real
> Tradition, and "is not Roman enough." Such people should not be
involved in Roman
> cooking in any way.
>
> (end of example)
>
> ******************************************
>
> I could have added a third view, "Liberal Roman Cooking," where one
might
> advocate that it would be cool to mix Roman food with modern
Mexican food, or
> Japanese food, or whatever... but really we haven't had ANYONE in
Nova Roma make
> such suggestions about the Religio. I can't think of a single
instance where
> anyone in Nova Roma has ever suggested any sort religion other
than "moderate"
> or "fundamentalist" reconstructionism.
>
> Unfortunately, these two views of what reconstructionism is all
about are
> starting to tear the Religio itself apart. We have been unable to
reconcile the
> two views, or "agree to disagree."
>
> Interestingly enough, when Nova Roma was founded, it was thought
that both
> views on the Relgio would be able to live in harmony. The State
Rituals (Roman
> festivals, and state rites) would be "Fundamentalist" in order to
best preserve
> the traditions of the Mos Maiorum, and the Peace of the Gods. (Pax
Deorum.)
> Away from the major public state rituals, Citizens would have more
freedom. If
> one wanted to worship at their Lararium, or a temple or shrine in
a "Moderate"
> way, (with words, offerings or whatever not contained exactly in a
primary
> source) it would be accepted so long as it contained ideas that
were all Roman,
> and done in Roman style.
>
> After all, both the "moderate" and "fundamentalist" views agree
that the
> primary resource material is good and should be done. The
difference is in whether
> they are the "only" things done, or whether other things can be
done as well,
> so long as they conform to known Roman styles in all ways.
>
> It really WAS all planned, folks. Please do check the founding
document for
> the Religio, written before Nova Roma was officially founded: <A
HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/declaration_religio.html"
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/declaration_religio.html</A>
>
> I specifically point to the paragraph:
>
> "We further affirm that rites and worship within the Roman Pagan
may be
> approached in many ways. In this manner the spiritual needs of all
practicing
> individuals may be fulfilled. These various approaches may include
group or
> individual worship, philosophical practice focusing on prayer and
contemplation,
> purely historical reconstruction of ancient ritual form, as well as
forms of
> modern rites and worship that adapt ancient practices and
ideals."
>
> Folks, we KNEW that people of different religious views would be
here... and
> we did our best to make a place where they would all be welcome and
be able to
> find expression for their beliefs about the Religio. The only thing
we wanted
> to make sure of was that the major state rituals would remain as
exactly
> traditional as possible. We honestly, (and naively) thought the
rest would settle
> itself out. After all - people interested in Roman religion were so
scarce
> they couldn't help but work out their differences if they wanted
their Religion
> to continue!
>
> Perhaps we were fools. But we did what we could with what we had,
and I'm
> still proud of what was done, even if all of you are at each others
throats. (And
> mine, half the time!)
>
> I still can't help but to have hope. Like MLK Jr., I still "Have a
Dream". I
> dream of a New Rome where the rites to the major state rituals to
the Gods are
> done with historical accuracy, in Latin so that the Mos Maiorum and
Pax
> Deorum may be preserved for Aeternitas. I also dream of a New Rome
where Citizens
> have the freedom to do what is meaningful for them religiously, and
to even
> create new "Roman style" rites, so long as non-historical elements
are not
> introduced.
>
> I have a dream where we will recognize that the two kinds of
> reconstructionism, "moderate" and "fundamentalist" both have value
even though they see key
> issues differently; even such foundational ideas as the necessity
of live
> sacrifice, and the idea that the Gods will only accept rituals done
with the exact
> ancient wording, and without error.
>
> I can't stop you from fighting, folks. Your anger and positions are
far too
> entrenched for me, *or even the Collegium Pontificum* to do
anything about it.
> Either you'll figure out a way to live together, or the two "views"
of Roman
> Reconstructionism will continue to try to push each other out of NR
and claim
> it exclusively. That fight will destroy Nova Roma one way or
another, even if
> one side manages to "win." To my knowledge NO religion has ever
been able to
> to completely eliminate either of its 'moderate'
or 'fundamentalist' factions.
> We'll be no different no matter how much we fight.
>
> For my part, I appreciate all of you. Yes, even those of you that
completely
> and utterly hate my guts, and would do anything to see me
completely out of
> Nova Roma. You are ROMANS, each and every one of you. My biggest
dream of all
> was that you would be together, and that you would at least *try*
to make good
> what was lost. That dream at least has come true. For me it's
enough and its
> the reason why I stay here.
>
> If anyone wants me to, I am willing to volunteer my services to
help heal the
> growing rift between us. Despise me; think I'm an idiot; but I
built this
> place. I believe I can continue that process if folks will allow
that to happen.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pater Patriae, Pontifex Maximus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]