Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Nov 8-15, 2003

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16228 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-08
Subject: Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16229 From: tcaesar1949 Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: NOVA ROMA IS GREAT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16230 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Re: Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16231 From: forthegodshonor@aol.com Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16232 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Acknowledgement of new Priests
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16233 From: Marcus Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Prov Brasilia, Edictum X
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16234 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Ludi Victoria Military Contest
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16235 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: The Roman Surgery
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16236 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Ludi Plebeian, first day of semifinals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16237 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16238 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16239 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16240 From: caesarspassion Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16241 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16242 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16243 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16244 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16245 From: agrippina_modia_aurelia Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Brading Roman Villa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16246 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16247 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16248 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Ludi Plebeian, second day of semifinals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16249 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16250 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16251 From: Paula Drennan Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16252 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: The Roman Surgery
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16253 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16254 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16255 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: CALL FOR CANDIDATES FOR PLEBEIAN MAGISTRACIES
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16256 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16257 From: scott dolleck Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16258 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16259 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: The Roman Surgery
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16260 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: The Romans at Work and Play
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16261 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Official Results of Senate Meeting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16262 From: Petrus Domitianus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: edictum propraetoricum - provincia venedia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16263 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Ludi Plebeian - Final of the races
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16264 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16265 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16266 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: The Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16267 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16268 From: Aki H J Himmanen Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Greetings from a new citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16269 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16270 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings from a new citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16271 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16272 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16273 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16274 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16275 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16276 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings from a new citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16277 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16278 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16279 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16280 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16281 From: Pinar Saglav Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16282 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16283 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16284 From: G. Valerius Publicola Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Long absession
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16285 From: NipperF@aol.com Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Ludi Victoria Military Contest Article for Militarium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16286 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Ludi Victoria Military Contest Article for Militarium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16287 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16288 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Greetings from a new citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16289 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Roman Calendar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16290 From: Merope Zicos Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Graecia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16291 From: Merope Zicos Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16292 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Munera canceled
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16293 From: Marcus Iulius Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16294 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16295 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16296 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16297 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16298 From: Roger Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16299 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16300 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16301 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Call For Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16302 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16303 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Munera canceled
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16304 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Declaration of Candidacy for Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16305 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16306 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Twelve Tables -- Table I, Law V
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16307 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16308 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16309 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Call For Candidates - Addendum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16310 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Call For Candidates in the Comitia Plebis Tributa - Addendum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16311 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16312 From: Centurion M Bianchius Antonius Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16313 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16314 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Munera canceled
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16315 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16316 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16317 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16318 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Digest No 910
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16319 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16320 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16321 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16322 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16323 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16324 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16325 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16326 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16327 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16328 From: Neil Lucock Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16329 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16330 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16331 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16332 From: Livia Cornelia Hibernia Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16333 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16334 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16335 From: Marcus Iulius Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16336 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Anglo-American Project in Pompeii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16337 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Call For Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16338 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Candidacy for Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16339 From: Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16340 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16341 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16342 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16343 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16344 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16345 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16346 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16347 From: F.QVI.ALBANVS Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Digest No 910
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16348 From: Franto Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Roman Empire web based game
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16349 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Call For Candidates - ATTN CANDIDATES
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16350 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Roman Empire web based game
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16351 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Digest No 910
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16352 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16353 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16354 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16355 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16356 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Antigone - Ludi Plebeain theater
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16357 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: The Senate is now in Session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16358 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16359 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16360 From: Neil Lucock Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16361 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16362 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16363 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16364 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16365 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16366 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16367 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16368 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16369 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: New Tootal Station-Surveying in Pomepii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16370 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16371 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back :-)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16372 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16373 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: End of Ludi Plebeian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16374 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Antigone - Ludi Plebeain theater
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16375 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16376 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16377 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: End of Ludi Plebeian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16378 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16379 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Call for Candidate for Aedilis Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16380 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16381 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: A Roman Joke
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16382 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16383 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16384 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Twelve Tables -- Table I, Law VI
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16385 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16386 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: End of Ludi Plebeian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16387 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16388 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16389 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16390 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16391 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16392 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16393 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16394 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Digest Number 913
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16395 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: The Senate is now in Session
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16396 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16397 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Statement of candidacy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16398 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16399 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Statement of candidacy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16400 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: NovAroma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16401 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: End of Ludi Plebeian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16402 From: Legion XXIV Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Vicesima Quarta Newsletter Oct-Nov 2003
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16403 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-15
Subject: Proyecto Carteia



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16228 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-08
Subject: Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World":

http://www.indiana.edu/~ancmed/midwife.HTM

This essay, by Valerie French (The American Univ.), originally
appeared in _Helios_ 13:2 (1986), pp. 69-84.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16229 From: tcaesar1949 Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: NOVA ROMA IS GREAT
I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME FEEL WELCOME AT THIS SITE.ALL OF
YOU HAVE BEEN VERY HELPFUL. Julius Augustus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16230 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Re: Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World
Salve!

Ah - The Link of the Day: Now my day is complete!
One of our new Posters is a fellow devotee of Venus; I hope you don't mind, but I refered her to you.
I don't know where you are. I don't know where she is. But she belongs to your Goddess (okay - We all love Venus!) and I figured you'd be better connected with the Temple of Venus, and would know where to refer her to. So expect a letter soon.
Heard from the Censors yesterday, approving my new Praenomen in honour of Rome's relation to Fallen Illium. (See below.) So I went ahead & applied for Citizenship!

Vale
Troianus (Equitius? Gens Applied for....) Mercurius


-----Original Message-----
From: g_iulius_scaurus <gfr@...>
Sent: Nov 8, 2003 11:43 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World

<html><body>


<tt>
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.<BR>
<BR>
Salvete, Quirites.<BR>
<BR>
Here's a link to "Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World":<BR>
<BR>
<a href="http://www.indiana.edu/~ancmed/midwife.HTM">http://www.indiana.edu/~ancmed/midwife.HTM</a><BR>
<BR>
This essay, by Valerie French (The American Univ.), originally<BR>
appeared in _Helios_ 13:2 (1986), pp. 69-84.<BR>
<BR>
Valete, Quirites.<BR>
<BR>
G. Iulius Scaurus<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16231 From: forthegodshonor@aol.com Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Re: New Member
In a message dated 11/9/03 9:14:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com writes:


> Hi my name is Christine Weir. I am new at this. I have been
> searching for a group who maintains the ancient Roman ways. I am
> glad I found you. Like I said I am new at this, if someone could
> help me out. I'd like to properly be apart of this group

Salve Christine!

Welcome to both the group and to Nova Roma!
Hmmmm...well, there are many places to start, but I guess, because in sign up
they say to, is to choose a Roman name. I think on the site they have a
place that can help with that. http://www.novaroma.org .
Please be well, much love and take care!
Vale,

~*~**~ Katie/Seta/Anneia/Ari ~**~*~

~ those who are different change the world those
who are the same keep it that way ~

Thank you to "Master Akane" for allowing me to use this quote in my
signature.
I am not aware of who the originating author is. But it's too true to pass
up.
It's how I feel as well. Enjoy it. :)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShemsuSet
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ma-A-Kherw
http://www.livejournal.com/users/beloveddaughter
http://www.kemetjournals.com/users/hrhprincessseta
http://www.fanfiction.net/~HRHPrincessAri

Main E-mail:
Forthegodshonor@...
Second E-mail:
BelovedDaughterOfMaatAndSet@...
Third E-mail:
SetaTheThunderbird@...
AIM:
FutureQueenOfAll
Yahoo IM:
SetaTheThunderbird
MSN:
BelovedDaughterOfMaatAndSet


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16232 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Acknowledgement of new Priests
Acknowledgement of new Priests


As a lictor of the Comitia Curiata, I hereby witness
and acknowledge the nominations of the new Sacerdos of
Nova Roma.
I recognize Lucius Sicinius Drusus as Pontifex of Nova
Roma
I recognize Gaius Iulius Scarus as Pontifex of Nova
Roma
I recognize Gaius Iulius Scarus as Flamen Quirinalis
of Nova Roma
I recognize Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia as Sacerdos
Dianae of Nova Roma

May the Gods and the spirit of Roma Antiqua watch over
the Sacerdos of Nova Roma, and grant them the guidance
and wisdom for the positive furtherance of Romanitas.
May this sacred bond bring favor upon our Nation and
our Citizens.


Valete
Lictor Curiatus,
Marcus Arminius Maior


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16233 From: Marcus Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Prov Brasilia, Edictum X
Nova Roma
Provincia Brasilia

----------------------------------

Provincial Edictum - X
Regarding organization of the Province
10 november 2003 - a.d. IV Id Nov MMDCCLVI



Administrative Organization of the Provincia Brasilia.


I. Legates

The Legates Sextus Arminius Remus e Kaeso Arminius Cato
are dismissed.

Lucius Arminius Faustus
is named Legatus


II. Other nominations

Sextus Arminius Remus
is named Scriba Propraetoris



Marcus Arminius Maior
Propraetor, provincia Brasilia

----------------------------------

Edito Provincial - X
Sobre a organizacao da Provincia
10 de novembro de 2003 - a.d. IV Id Nov MMDCCLVI



Organizacao administrativa da Provincia Brasilia


I. Legados

Os Legados Sextus Arminius Remus e Kaeso Arminius Cato estão
dispensados de suas funções.

O cidadão Lucius Arminius Faustus é nomeado Legado.


II. Outras Nomeacoes

Sextus Arminius Remus é nomeado Escriba provincial (Scriba
Propraetoris).



Marcus Arminius Maior
Propraetor, provincia Brasilia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16234 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2003-11-09
Subject: Ludi Victoria Military Contest
Curile Aedile Gn. Equitius Marinus, Honored Gentlemen;

It is certainly my pleasure upon my return from a vacation in Virginia,
to recognize and congratulate the gentlemen who entered the subject
contest.

To Servius Fidelius Longinus, I am most pleased and honored to recognize
you as the winner of the contest and I applaud your skill and obvious
study of this subject to the extent that you have won by a very narrow
margin, but a "win" it was; in a highly detailed military problem as
presented by the Honorable Marinus. I both congratulate you on your
victory and stand in awe of your obvous skill, quick thinking, and
adaptability as a ground commander.

To P. Flavius Conservatus Maior and G. Iulius Scaurus, I also extend my
congratulatons for your standings in the games. Any kudos which are
handed out by the Honorable Marinus, I am privaledged and honored to
support and recognize. Your obvious skills in this close match are
certainly recognized by myself in this military organization and
subsequently honored as well.

My sincerest congratulations to all of you for your efforts and your
standings. I should be very appreciative if each of you would consider
"publishng" in the Militarium, some review of the past contest, and
provide some tactical military comments on the contest specifically, or
in general as relate to the military aspects of the period in which you
all excell.

Respectfully and With My Unabashed Admiration;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Praefectus Castorum -- Sodalitas Miiitarium
-- Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16235 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: The Roman Surgery
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "The Roman Surgery":

http://www.med.virginia.edu/hs-library/historical/antiqua/instru.html

This site is an exhibition sponsored by the Historical Collections and
Services Office at The Claude Moore Health Sciences Library, Univ. of
Virginia.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16236 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Ludi Plebeian, first day of semifinals
Salvete omnia

It is a pleasure imense announce the first race of the Semifinals of Ludi Plebeian,

Again, I have to beg your pardon by the simpleness of these game. I´m sure NR is worthy of better work.

And we have:

1. Umbra Coccinea, driven by Florianus, Russata
2. Proeliator, driven by Gustavus Barbarus, Russata
3. Orionis Draco, driven by Equus Magnus, Veneta
4. Lupus in Fabula, driven by Tenax, Russata

They go and race, like Atalanta on the camps of Arcadia, like the virgins of Diana of their morning playing. How graciousness on the aurigas! They are like Boreas winding on the sea of Icarus.

After a race full of fair play and good manners, we have the winners:


1. Proeliator > classified for finals
2. Umbra Coccinea > classified for finals
3. Lupus in Fabula
4. Orionis Draco


valete,




L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16237 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
One of my best friend's granddaddy served with Erwin Rommel's Afrika Corps before being captured and sent to a POW camp in Alabama. He always said that he was fighting for his country and neither he nor his family had been members of the NSDAP. Not all Germans are or were Nazis; not all Nazis are or were Germans.
Also, memoribilia doesn't have to be something that is actually from the period; key word "memory".

F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16238 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Patrick Owen aka F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.

It is very hard for anyone, including objective historians not to have very bitter feelings about Germany and its leadership during the NAZI period. There is no way that anyone that I count as a person of integrity could understand or even intellectually condone the deliberate suspension of law and the killing of Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, homosexuals, and even German political dissidents in the completely callous, brutal, and factory-like way that the NAZI regime carried out the Holocaust. To this day, whenever I hear some White Supremist say that the Holocaust never happened and it is all propaganda, I want to punch that illegitimus right in his mouth.
My daddy, several of my uncles, and my father-in-law were all WWII veterans and I am proud of their achievements against the Axis during that war. I also have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the WBTS on both sides and I respect both sides even though I don't agree with the politics or motivations of one of them because the fought to support a moral evil. However, that war is over and family is still family no matter what. Empires are transient, politics ephemeral, but blood and family remain. Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16239 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
My ex-partner was sitting quietly one day as all the veterans in our district were at each other's throats. It was the usual cop fare... army versus marines, navy and air-force guys don't do anything, etc. etc. (I personally do not tolerate army bashing, especially from the marines, hee-hee.)
My partner remained very quiet, and he looks very much like the U.S Marine poster boy (6 foot 3 inches, small waist line, chiseled chin, barrel chest and a small brain.) He never waits for back-up, he is extremely nosy and he is always looking for trouble. He also hates to admit when he is wrong and hates being embarrassed.
Well, the conversation turned to him as it usually does in an environment when someone is 'trying to stay out of it'. After a few rounds of questions we found out his father was a U.S. Marine in Vietnam and his grandfather was in the Army in WWII...the Wehrmacht. We have a lot of history buffs in our police dept. and I am usually called either Fahotep or Caesar. I used to call my ex-partner, like all the other officers, German or Nazi related names (He has blond hair and blue eyes as well.) We did this only out of fun and because of his appearance and last name. We also did it because he did not like it and would become very defensive when we jokingly called him a Nazi. It did not help matters when he got into fisticuffs with another cop (Over a girl who did not like either of them.)
The other cop happens to be Jewish.
World War II ended generations ago, but here you have an American policeman of German descent who has to defend the fact that his grandfather was inducted into the military. His father fought as an American marine and also served for twenty-five years as a policeman. My ex-partner is bull headed and sometimes ****sure but he is no Nazi. Neither was his dad or his granddad. They were only Germans.
My grandfather served in the 1st Infantry division. Years ago I told him that I wanted to travel to Italy and Sicily because of my affinity for all things Roman. He stated that "Italy is not all it's cracked up to be." He said that the people were not very friendly and that there were "too many Germans hanging around" he neglected to tell me that he was an infantryman at the time. He still feels this way. Old habits die hard.
Here in the U.S we still talk and argue about the civil war and the confederate flag. Especially in the south there are still folks that harbor ill feelings towards the 'north'. Yet, none of them were alive during the civil war.
In short, blame the folks that are responsible for the events. Not the surviving family, descendants or an entire nation who has since apologized for the actions of a madman and a desperate people.
I am a American, a veteran, of Puerto Rican descent and a Roman at heart.
I like the shirt and I am going to buy it.
To Hades with the web-site folks if they do indeed have reservations about 'brown' folks. I am tanned myself and very frequently mistaken for Italian. I love to see the look of shock on people's faces when they find out what I am. I also understand Italian and Sicilian thanks to my ex-wife and my current wife and it makes things even more interesting.
It is sad but more than likely a fact that we have (I hope not) that we have folks in NR that have reservations...
Nonetheless, we are all Roman here. Someone please release the doves!

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
One of my best friend's granddaddy served with Erwin Rommel's Afrika Corps before being captured and sent to a POW camp in Alabama. He always said that he was fighting for his country and neither he nor his family had been members of the NSDAP. Not all Germans are or were Nazis; not all Nazis are or were Germans.
Also, memoribilia doesn't have to be something that is actually from the period; key word "memory".

F Gal Aur Sec

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16240 From: caesarspassion Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: New Member
Hi It's me Christine. How do I fine a Gens. I am from Pennsylvania.
So I think I'm will be in one of the Mediatlantica but how do I know
which one. I am also unsure how I chose a name. I can almost chose
any as long as it has the Gens name in it?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16241 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
As it was with Iulius Caesar, so it was with Irwin Rommel: A person possessed of genuine Genius who fought on behalf of his Country, not its leaders. Most Germans were NOT Nazis, this is true - the vast majority of the Wehrmacht fought for Germany, not for the Fascists. The same cannot be said of the SS, who were fascism supporters.

The t-shirt page in question had 1 Iulius Caesar T, for the Afrika Korp one T & one hat, while the remainder were SS. Not good!

As for my kin, with my Grandparents naturalized American Citizens, they offered to act as Sponsors for any who cared to come to the U.S.. My German cousins declined - they thought the Party was doing great things for Germany.
My Father's brother was stationed in Germany as part of the US occupation forces after the war, & in fact brought home a "war bride" who was a wonderful person (may she rest in well deserved Peace) - but the Cousins he managed to track down still had not changed their tune; if anything they had become Apologists for that foul Regime, so I repeat: They are as lost to us as thoroughly as sthe dead.

- Troianus Mercurius


-----Original Message-----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 8:55 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

<html><body>


<tt>
One of my best friend's granddaddy served with Erwin Rommel's Afrika Corps before being captured and sent to a POW camp in Alabama.  He always said that he was fighting for his country and neither he nor his family had been members of the NSDAP.  Not all Germans are or were Nazis; not all Nazis are or were Germans.<BR>
Also, memoribilia doesn't have to be something that is actually from the period; key word "memory".<BR>
<BR>
F Gal Aur Sec<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16242 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salvete Omnes,
I started this topic just to show a Roman T-Shirt I had run
across. I did not expect it to turn in to discussion about Nazism and such.
Let's end this thread now, please.

Vale,
Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16243 From: L. Sicinius Drusus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salve,
I'm somewhat distrbed by the idea that some are
expressing that all Germans who fought in the Second
World War were Nazis.

The German Army during the Nazi era was a conscript
army. Joining or not joining it wasn't an option for
many of the young men of that time. The German people
also had some very real greviances resulting from the
peace treaties that ended the Frist World War, a fact
that the Nazis exploited in motivating the German
people to fight in the war.

In the later stages of the war most German military
personal considered themselves to be fighting to
defend Germany from invasion, not to defend the Nazis.
Germany was about to be invaded in the later part of
1944 and early 1945. The troops in the East were
fighting a nation whos government was just as brutal
if not more so, than thier own. From the West there
was the infamous Morgenthau plan which would have
turned Germany into a group of third world nations in
the heart of Europe.

The Nazi era government of Germany was one of the most
disgusting the world has ever seen. Sugesting that all
of the German people were tainted by that government
is no different that the Nazi propaganda that all Jews
were tainted. Each person from that era deserves to
judged as an indiviual.

L. Sicinius Drusus


--- PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
> One of my best friend's granddaddy served with Erwin
> Rommel's Afrika Corps before being captured and sent
> to a POW camp in Alabama. He always said that he
> was fighting for his country and neither he nor his
> family had been members of the NSDAP. Not all
> Germans are or were Nazis; not all Nazis are or were
> Germans.
> Also, memoribilia doesn't have to be something that
> is actually from the period; key word "memory".
>
> F Gal Aur Sec
>


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16244 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salve F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus!

While I am in complete agreement with how you feel about White Supremacists, when it come the "War of Northern Aggression" (as many of my kin still call it,) I feel obliged to speak on behalf of my Ancestors:

They were Church-going God-fearing morally upright members of their Community who adhered to the Laws of God & Man. In short, they were a product of their times. So are we - Praise the Gods!
They were in accordance with the Laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia, where my familly has lived since the 1600s; Today we 'know' that those Laws were immoral and unjust, but in their own time they 'knew' that the practice was a part of the Natural Order, condoned by their most Sacred Scriptures - just as today we question those same Scriptures and have set much of them aside as no longer applying to our modern world of Democratic ideals.

I thank the Immortal Gods that my own parents taught me to think for myself, for it is through that freedom of thought that I found the Gods. However, many parents teach their children to obey their Scriptures as "Gods Law" or "the Word of God", and that Scripture condones Slavery. Those parents apparently fail to understand that those Scriptures, too, were a product of their times!

Vale
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 9:27 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

<html><body>


<tt>
Patrick Owen aka F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.<BR>
<BR>
It is very hard for anyone, including objective historians not to have very bitter feelings about Germany and its leadership during the NAZI period.  There is no way that anyone that I count as a person of integrity could understand or even intellectually condone the deliberate suspension of law and the killing of Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, homosexuals, and even German political dissidents in the completely callous, brutal, and factory-like way that the NAZI regime carried out the Holocaust.  To this day, whenever I hear some White Supremist say that the Holocaust never happened and it is all propaganda, I want to punch that illegitimus right in his mouth.<BR>
My daddy, several of my uncles, and my father-in-law were all WWII veterans and I am proud of their achievements against the Axis during that war.  I also have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the WBTS on both sides and I respect both sides even though I don't agree with the politics or motivations of one of them because the fought to support a moral evil.  However, that war is over and family is still family no matter what.  Empires are transient, politics ephemeral, but blood and family remain.  Vale. <BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16245 From: agrippina_modia_aurelia Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Brading Roman Villa
Salvete!

I hope I'm not duplicating anything, so I apologize if someone has
already posted this & I missed it.

I was reading Archaeology Odyssey which featured an article about the
Brading Roman Villa which is in danger of being reburied. If anyone
is interested, here is the link to the website:

http://www.bradingromanvilla.org.uk/brv1.html

Valete,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16246 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: New Member
Salve Christine, et salvete quirites,

Christine writes:
> How do I find a Gens?

Go to the Album Gentium, http://novaroma.org/bin/view/gentes
and identify some gentes you think you might like to be a part of.
Then write to the pater/materfamilias, expressing your interest
and seeking more information. Tell them who you are, what you
find interesting in Nova Roma, and why you're looking at their
gens. If you find one particular gens you really want to be
a part of, go on and apply at that point for citizenship. The
citizenship form will have to be approved by the p/mater, so it's
good to have had contact with them before they see your name
showing up in their e-mail asking for approval to let you join.

> I am from Pennsylvania.
> So I think I'm will be in one of the Mediatlantica but how do I know
> which one?

We have a number of fine gentes in Mediatlantica. I can recommend
Ambrosia, headed by Merlinia Ambrosia Artori, if your interests are
a combination of Roman and Celtic. There's also my own gens Equitia,
which includes many citizens in the greater Washington DC area.
Beyond that, there are a number of other fine gentes in Mediatlantica.
I would recommend that you look for a p/mater who is a tax paying
(Assidui) citizen, rather than the less active Capiti Censi citizens.
Also, you're welcome to check with me privately about any concerns
you may have.

> I am also unsure how I chose a name. I can almost chose
> any as long as it has the Gens name in it?

Yes, that's pretty much the case. Take a look at the Roman Names page

http://novaroma.org/via_romana/names.html

and find a praenomen and filiation that you like. You might want to ask
for some guidance from the p/mater of whatever gens you end up deciding
on as well.

Vale,

-- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16247 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
You'll get used to it. It happens all the time. It's nothing personal. I have learned alot here just by posting something I consider innocent and then the fur flies. Welcome aboard.
By the way, I really liked the shirt and I just ordered it. Thanks for the link!

Charlie Collins <deist@...> wrote:
Salvete Omnes,
I started this topic just to show a Roman T-Shirt I had run
across. I did not expect it to turn in to discussion about Nazism and such.
Let's end this thread now, please.

Vale,
Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus


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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16248 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Ludi Plebeian, second day of semifinals
Salvete,

Today is the impressive second day of the semifinals. Yestarday we had a very beautiful race, without any accident. I hope Fate be even better today.

And we have on the grid:

1 Fulminatora, driven by Remus, Russata
2. Cheruscantis, driven by Unknown, Russata
3. Equus Erectus, driven by Italicus, Russata
4. Delecta Mea, driven by Crescens, Praesina

They run! But the tricks of disgrace showed after a brief pause. Fulminatora crashes against the spina.

Delecta mea is all time on the first, but on the last lap, Cheruscantis comes like the lighting of Iove, or like the arrow of Pandaro searching for Menelau´s flesh on the trojan battlefield.

1. Cheruscantis > classified to the finals
2. Delecta Mea > classified to the finals
3. Equus Erectus
4. accident!

One citizen comes to me and observe something make my knees tremble and ask Destiny why these auspices are observed. The two pairs of classified are the same of the first and forth grids of the quarters.

Misteries of the Fate!


Valete,



L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16249 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salve

I agree, not out of any desire to stifle free speech, but out of acknowledgement that we seem to have reached a concensus: Iulius Caesar cool, Nazis bad.
Many people - myself included - have spoken their minds and hearts on the subject, and it seems we are in agreement, which is a good thing - it can only enhance the feeling of Community, to know one's peers agree with each other and one's self - but in truth I agree we have reached the point of "enough is enough".

Vale
Troianus Mercurius
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Collins <deist@...>
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 10:21 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete Omnes,<BR>
  I started this topic just to show a Roman T-Shirt I had run<BR>
across. I did not expect it to turn in to discussion about Nazism and such.<BR>
Let's end this thread now, please.<BR>
<BR>
Vale,<BR>
Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16250 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
OK! RELEASE THE DOVES!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...>
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 11:15 AM
To: Gnostic <hermeticagnosis@...>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

I agree. I really just like doves though and just hate to see them caged up...can we release them anyway?

Gnostic <hermeticagnosis@... wrote:

Marcus Flavius Fides - Salve!

I agree we should end the thread, but I see no need for releasing the Doves: I see Blessed Concordia here, for all have been saying in one way or another the same things:

I Not all Germans were Nazis. Not all Southerners are bigots. The majority of both served their Country, not bad leadership.
II That Nazism & Nazi supporters were wrong, are wrong, will remain in the wrong.
III That people have been products of their Times, and that our Times have by & large risen above Nazism & Slavery.
IV Iuius Caesar T-shirt good, SS T-shirts bad, & we do not know the beliefs of the Retailer.

We do not need Doves, dear Marcus Flavius, for there is no conflict.. We SHOULD move on, however, as we are beginning to repeat ourselves, we are so much in agreement! This has been a wonderful demonstration of our Community, for indeed we share our Ideals in Common!

Vale bene
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: raymond fuentes <PRAEFECTUS2324@...>
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 9:58 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

My ex-partner was sitting quietly one day as all the veterans in our district were at each other's throats. It was the usual cop fare... army versus marines, navy and air-force guys don't do anything, etc. etc. (I personally do not tolerate army bashing, especially from the marines, hee-hee.)<BR><BR>My partner remained very quiet, and he looks very much like the U.S Marine poster boy (6 foot 3 inches, small waist line, chiseled chin, barrel chest and a small brain.) He never waits for back-up, he is extremely nosy and he is always looking for trouble. He also hates to admit when he is wrong and hates being embarrassed.

Well, the conversation turned to him as it usually does in an environment when someone is 'trying to stay out of it'. After a few rounds of questions we found out his father was a U.S. Marine in Vietnam and his grandfather was in the Army in WWII...the Wehrmacht. We have a lot of history buffs in our police dept. and I am usually called either Fahotep or Caesar. I used to call my ex-partner, like all the other officers, German or Nazi related names (He has blond hair and blue eyes as well.) We did this only out of fun and because of his appearance and last name. We also did it because he did not like it and would become very defensive when we jokingly called him a Nazi. It did not help matters when he got into fisticuffs with another cop (Over a girl who did not like either of them.) The other cop happens to be Jewish. World War II ended generations ago, but here you have an American policeman of German descent who has to defend the fact that his grandfather was inducted into the military. His father fought as an American
marine and also served for twenty-five years as a policeman. My ex-partner is bull headed and sometimes ****sure but he is no Nazi. Neither was his dad or his granddad. They were only Germans. My grandfather served in the 1st Infantry division. Years ago I told him that I wanted to travel to Italy and Sicily because of my affinity for all things Roman. He stated that "Italy is not all it's cracked up to be."  He said that the people were not very friendly and that there were "too many Germans hanging around" he neglected to tell me that he was an infantryman at the time. He still feels this way. Old habits die hard.

Here in the U.S we still talk and argue about the civil war and the confederate flag. Especially in the south there are still folks that harbor ill feelings towards the 'north'. Yet, none of them were alive during the civil war. In short, blame the folks that are responsible for the events. Not the surviving family, descendants or an entire nation who has since apologized for the actions of a madman and a desperate people.

I am a American, a veteran, of Puerto Rican descent and a Roman at heart. I like the shirt and I am going to buy it. To Hades with the web-site folks if they do indeed have reservations about 'brown' folks. I am tanned myself and very frequently mistaken for Italian. I love to see the look of shock on people's faces when they find out what I am. I also understand Italian and Sicilian thanks to my ex-wife and my current wife and it makes things even more interesting. It is sad but more than likely a fact that we have (I hope not) that we have folks in NR that have reservations...Nonetheless, we are all Roman here. Someone please release the doves!

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:One of my best friend's granddaddy served with Erwin Rommel's Afrika Corps before being captured and sent to a POW camp in Alabama.  He always said that he was fighting for his country and neither he nor his family had been members of the NSDAP.  Not all Germans are or were Nazis; not all Nazis are or were Germans.

Also, memoribilia doesn't have to be something that is actually from the period; key word "memory".

F Gal Aur Sec
S  P  Q  R
Fidelis Ad Mortem.
Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen
Fidelis Mortem.
Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16251 From: Paula Drennan Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Personally, i enjoy watching the fur fly. only rarely do I actually post at all. I usually have very little to contribute, and even this is mostly a "me too, me too" post. I really enjoy reading this list for the links to roman historical pages. I've been working my way thru the one on midwives and such. It's very interesting.
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

In memory of Tenzing the Kitty, May 4-August 1, 2003
He lost his short battle for life, and is now at peace
----- Original Message -----
From: "raymond fuentes" <praefectus2324@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt


> You'll get used to it. It happens all the time. It's nothing personal. I have learned alot here just by posting something I consider innocent and then the fur flies. Welcome aboard.
> By the way, I really liked the shirt and I just ordered it. Thanks for the link!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16252 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: The Roman Surgery
Salve Gai Iuli Scarue (not sure if my latin greeting on your
cognomen is right ;-).

Your links are always informative and interesting. This one makes
me profoundly hopeful I will never require treatment with ancient
Roman implements!

Vale,

G. Popillius laenas
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...>
wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to "The Roman Surgery":
>
> http://www.med.virginia.edu/hs-
library/historical/antiqua/instru.html
>
> This site is an exhibition sponsored by the Historical Collections
and
> Services Office at The Claude Moore Health Sciences Library, Univ.
of
> Virginia.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16253 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
My sentiments exactly. If you can't beat them...march on the city!
Tarpien rock anyone? (I think I spelled that wrong.)

Paula Drennan <dragonpink@...> wrote:
Personally, i enjoy watching the fur fly. only rarely do I actually post at all. I usually have very little to contribute, and even this is mostly a "me too, me too" post. I really enjoy reading this list for the links to roman historical pages. I've been working my way thru the one on midwives and such. It's very interesting.
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

In memory of Tenzing the Kitty, May 4-August 1, 2003
He lost his short battle for life, and is now at peace
----- Original Message -----
From: "raymond fuentes" <praefectus2324@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt


> You'll get used to it. It happens all the time. It's nothing personal. I have learned alot here just by posting something I consider innocent and then the fur flies. Welcome aboard.
> By the way, I really liked the shirt and I just ordered it. Thanks for the link!


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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16254 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Salvete
Salvete everyone,
My name is Trajan Justinian and am new here.
I started out in the Religio section (on the wrong foot which landed
in my mouth but things are better now) and was told by Mercurius to
check out this list for interesting information and discussions.

I can see I am in over my head here so won't bother anyone with
stupid questions.
I hope to be able to say something worthy of the history majors here
soon enough though.
Valete
Justinian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16255 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: CALL FOR CANDIDATES FOR PLEBEIAN MAGISTRACIES
Tribunus Plebis Diana Moravia Aventina Comitia Plebis Tributa SPD

Plebeian citizens wishing to hold office for the year MMDCCLVII (2757) are hereby called to declare their candidacies for the following magistracies which will be elected by a vote in the Comitia Plebis Trbiuta :

TRIBUNUS PLEBIS - 5 positions available.

Candidates for Tribunus Plebis must be of the Ordo Plebeius (Plebeian Order), must have been a citizen of Nova Roma for six full months before 01 January 2004, and must have been born on or before 01 January 1979.*

AEDILIS PLEBEIUS - 2 positions available.

Candidates for Aedilis Plebeius must be of the Ordo Plebeius (Plebeian Order), must have been a citizen of Nova Roma for six full months before 01 January 2004, and must have been born on or before 01 January 1983.*

You may declare your candidacy by posting to the mailing lists
nova-roma@yahoogroups.com AND comitiaplebistributa@yahoogroups.com between 18:45 PM Roman Time on Monday November 10 through 19:00 PM Roman Time on Monday November 17.**

Declarations of candidacy will be saved and made available on http://www.novaroma.org for the duration of the campaign and election.


The elections for the above Plebeain magistracies in the Comitia Plebis Tributa will take place beginning at 19:01 Roman Time on November 22 and ending on 23:59 PM Roman Time on November 30.**

In order to see your local time as compared to Roman time please see http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

May the Gods grant the best of luck to all whom are willing to serve our Republic!

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis 2756
____________________________________________

*LEX IUNIA DE MAGISTRATUUM AETATE
II. No person may assume the office of praetor or tribune of the plebs until he or she has reached the age of 25.

III. 3.. No person may assume the office of quaestor, aedile, or be appointed to the position of
provincial governor, until he or she has reached the age of 21.



_________________________________

** Special note to those who honor the Gods of Rome and/or are practitioners of the Religio Romana: Following the guidelines set by the Collegium Pontificium, all voting days will take place during dies comitiales (citizens may vote on criminal or political matters).

Calendar of Holidays and Festivals
November 2756

Key:
Dies comitiales citizens may vote on political or criminal matters.
Dies fastus: Legal action is permitted.
Nefastus publicus : Public religious festivals are celebrated.


Tuesday Nov 10 dies comitiales
Wednesday Nov 11 dies comitiales
Thursday Nov 12 dies comitiales
Friday Nov 13 nefastus publicus
Saturday Nov 14 dies fastus
Sunday Nov 15 dies comitiales
Monday Nov 16 dies comitiales
Tuesday Nov 17 dies comitiales
Wednesday Nov 18 dies comitiales
Thursday Nov 19 dies comitiales
Friday Nov 20 dies comitiales
Saturday Nov 21 dies comitiales
Sunday Nov 22 dies comitiales
Monday Nov 23 dies comitiales
Tuesday Nov 24 dies comitiales
Wednesday Nov 25 dies comitiales
Thursday Nov 26 dies comitiales
Friday Nov 27 dies comitiales
Saturday Nov 28 dies comitiales
Sunday Nov 29 dies comitiales
Monday Nov 30 dies comitiales



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16256 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Salvete
Salve Iustinianus!

Welcome back! Glad to see you've made a full recovery from that foot-in-mouth ailment; it's awkward, & I'm sure we've all been there at one time or another!
You are NOT in over your head - just new. We all start out that way, & we get over it by learning, one thing at a time. Patience and interest are all that's required: You'll find plenty of people willing to help you, or point out where you can find whatever information you're looking for.
There is no such thing as stupid questions. If there's something we don't know, questioning people is how we learn it. It is NOT asking questions that leaves one in ignorance, so please feel free to ask questions! There is admittedly a lot of reading material that assumes a certain level of knowledge going into it, so if you ever feel "in over your head", just ask! One of us should be able to point you towards a good "Introduction to..." that will help!

Vale,
Troianus Mercurius (Gens Pending)

-----Original Message-----
From: Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@...>
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 3:26 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Salvete

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete everyone,<BR>
My name is Trajan Justinian and am new here.<BR>
I started out in the Religio section (on the wrong foot which landed <BR>
in my mouth but things are better now) and was told by Mercurius to <BR>
check out this list for interesting information and discussions.<BR>
<BR>
I can see I am in over my head here so won't bother anyone with <BR>
stupid questions.<BR>
I hope to be able to say something worthy of the history majors here <BR>
soon enough though.<BR>
Valete <BR>
Justinian<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16257 From: scott dolleck Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
ave,

I could no agree more!!


>From: Gnostic <hermeticagnosis@...>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:49:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>
>
> Salve
>
> I agree, not out of any desire to stifle free speech, but out of
>acknowledgement that we seem to have reached a concensus: Iulius Caesar
>cool, Nazis bad.
> Many people - myself included - have spoken their minds and hearts on
>the subject, and it seems we are in agreement, which is a good thing - it
>can only enhance the feeling of Community, to know one's peers agree with
>each other and one's self - but in truth I agree we have reached the point
>of "enough is enough".
>
>Vale
> Troianus Mercurius
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charlie Collins <deist@...>
>Sent: Nov 10, 2003 10:21 AM
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
>
><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>Salvete Omnes,<BR>
>� I started this topic just to show a Roman T-Shirt I had run<BR>
>across. I did not expect it to turn in to discussion about Nazism and
>such.<BR>
>Let's end this thread now, please.<BR>
><BR>
>Vale,<BR>
>Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus<BR>
><BR>
></tt>
>
><br>
>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16258 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salve

Nicely said Cousin

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus of the Bavarian Galeria (Ott's)
----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt


Patrick Owen aka F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.

It is very hard for anyone, including objective historians not to have very bitter feelings about Germany and its leadership during the NAZI period. There is no way that anyone that I count as a person of integrity could understand or even intellectually condone the deliberate suspension of law and the killing of Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, homosexuals, and even German political dissidents in the completely callous, brutal, and factory-like way that the NAZI regime carried out the Holocaust. To this day, whenever I hear some White Supremist say that the Holocaust never happened and it is all propaganda, I want to punch that illegitimus right in his mouth.
My daddy, several of my uncles, and my father-in-law were all WWII veterans and I am proud of their achievements against the Axis during that war. I also have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the WBTS on both sides and I respect both sides even though I don't agree with the politics or motivations of one of them because the fought to support a moral evil. However, that war is over and family is still family no matter what. Empires are transient, politics ephemeral, but blood and family remain. Vale.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16259 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-10
Subject: Re: The Roman Surgery
Salve Gaius Popillius!

Scaurus does find the coolest sites, doesn't he?
I've asked him if he would please extend his oath as a community service, they're so good!

Vale
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas <ksterne@...>
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 1:50 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Roman Surgery

<html><body>


<tt>
Salve Gai Iuli Scarue (not sure if my latin greeting on your <BR>
cognomen is right ;-).<BR>
<BR>
Your links are always informative and interesting.  This one makes <BR>
me profoundly hopeful I will never require treatment with ancient <BR>
Roman implements!<BR>
<BR>
Vale,<BR>
<BR>
G. Popillius laenas<BR>
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...> <BR>
wrote:<BR>
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.<BR>
> <BR>
> Salvete, Quirites.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here's a link to "The Roman Surgery":<BR>
> <BR>
> <a href="http://www.med.virginia.edu/hs-">http://www.med.virginia.edu/hs-</a><BR>
library/historical/antiqua/instru.html<BR>
> <BR>
> This site is an exhibition sponsored by the Historical Collections <BR>
and<BR>
> Services Office at The Claude Moore Health Sciences Library, Univ. <BR>
of<BR>
> Virginia.<BR>
> <BR>
> Valete, Quirites.<BR>
> <BR>
> G. Iulius Scaurus<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16260 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: The Romans at Work and Play
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "The Romans at Work and Play":

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/12romanday.html

This essay by Gerhard Rempel (Western New England College) offers an
introductory glimpse of various aspects of daily life in Pompeii and Rome.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16261 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Official Results of Senate Meeting
Tribunus Plebis Diana Moravia Aventina Quiritibus SPD

Senate Voting Results published on November 11 2756.

Salvete citizens!

The Senate has finished its latest session and the votes have been tallied as follows:

Formal debate ended on November 6 at 19:00 PM Roman time. Voting began immediately afterwards and
ended on November 8 at 19:00 PM Roman time. Results were officially published by the presiding
magistrate Consul Titus Mabienus Fortunatus on the Senate list on November 9th 2756.

The following 19 Senators cast votes in time. They are referred to below by their initials and are
listed in alphabetical order by nomen:

Marcus Arminius Maior (MAM)
Marcus Cassius Julianus (MCJ)
Patricia Cassia (PC)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla (LCS)
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus (LEC)
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (CFQ)
Quintus Fabius Maximus (QFM)
Antonius Gryllus Graecus (AGG)
Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonicus (AICPM)
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (DIPI)
Titus Labienus Fortunatus (TLF)
Gaius Marius Merullus (CMM)
Marcus Minucius Audens (MMA) (vote by proxy submlitted by Gnaeus Salix Astur)
Marcus Octavius Germanicus (MOG)
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (LPO)
Gnaeus Salix Astur (GSA)
Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus (LSAO)
Lucius Sicinius Drusus (LSD)
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato (ATMC)

The following Senator/s cast a vote but it was received after the deadline was past, so his vote is
not included in the official results below:
Caius Flavius Diocletianus (CFD)

Therefore, the necessary majority for a Senatus Consultum was 11 votes in favor.

"UTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item, "ANTIQUO" is a vote against, and "ABSTINEO" is an
open abstention.

The items for consideration were as follows:

Item I:

The senate shall adopt the following set of procedures for senate meetings, replacing its previous
procedures. Note that this proposal is slightly altered from the one I previously submitted for
consideration.

Item I passes, and the Senate now has a new set of procedures.
[18 in favor, 1 abstention]

Senatus Consultum de Ratione Senatus

In accordance with paragraph V.D. of the Constitution of Nova Roma, the Senatus Consultum de Ratione
Senatus is hereby enacted to set forth the
rules and procedures for debate and the taking of votes in the Senate.

I. Any member of the Senate may, at his discretion, introduce a topic for discussion by sharing it
with the rest of the Senate. Such
discussion is to be encouraged, but should not be mistaken for the formal process of calling for a
vote on a given issue, which may only be
done after the Senate has been convened for such a purpose, and by procedures as described below.

II. The Senate may be convened by a consul, praetor, or tribunus plebis. The magistrate convening
the Senate shall hereafter be referred to as
the presiding magistrate.

A. A consul may convene the Senate for any purpose.

B. A praetor may convene the Senate for any purpose when both consuls are unavailable.

C. A tribunus plebis may convene the Senate in order to ask the Senate's advice on any subject
which is clearly within the scope of his
constitutionally mandated powers and obligations.

III. Prior to convening the Senate, all of the members of the Senate, plus the tribuni plebis (if
they are not already members of the Senate),
must be informed no less than twenty-four hours prior to the Senate being formally convened. During
that interval, the right of intercessio
or nuntiatio may be exercised by those Constitutionally empowered to do so.

IV. After the interval described in section III above, the presiding magistrate may convene the
Senate and present one or more matters for
their consideration. Should the presiding magistrate wish to do so, he may yield the floor to a
member of the Senate or another magistrate,
allowing that person to present one or more items for the Senate's consideration.

V. Once the matters for consideration have been presented, each of the members of the Senate may, in
turn, offer their opinions thereon. The
debate shall be limited to the presiding magistrate, members of the Senate, and any magistrate which
the presiding magistrate has allowed to
present items in accord with section IV above. The tribunes of the plebs shall keep the citizens
informed as to the progress and content of
the debate. There shall be no limit on the length of the opinions rendered, but the procedure shall
differ slightly, depending on the mode
of communication:

A. When debate is being conducted via electronic mail, each Senator shall have up to ninety-six
hours to issue his opinion. Should that time
elapse, the Senator shall be assumed to have abbrogated his right to speak on the issues at hand
(but such silence shall not be considered a
waiver of the right to vote thereon). A Senator who is unable to vote may, during the debate phase,
give his proxy to another member of the
Senate, as long as such is done openly and within the prescribed period of debate.

B. When debate is being conducted via means that allow real-time communication (such as Internet
chat, teleconferencing, or live
meeting), the following rules shall apply:
a. Each Senator shall be given the opportunity to speak in order of seniority. Records of
Senatorial seniority shall be maintained by the
censors, according to the following formula:
1. Former censors, consuls, and praetors, in that order;
2. Ties in seniority shall be decided in favor of patricians over plebians;
3. Further ties in seniority shall be decided by age, with seniority being given to the older
individual.
b. For live, face-to-face meetings, Senate meetings shall occur only between sunrise and
sunset. A meeting may adjourn for the night
and reconvene the next morning at the discretion of the presiding magistrate. Should religious or
other considerations make it impossible
to reconvene the following day, the meeting shall end.
c. For live, face-to-face meetings, Senate meetings should occur, if possible, in a public
building which has been consecrated according
to the rites of the Religio Romana.

C. Regardless of which procedure is followed, the presiding magistrate shall retain the right to
amend any proposal prior to the
start of the voting period detailed in section VI below.

VI. Once each Senator has been given the opportunity to state his position on the issues under
discussion, the presiding magistrate shall
call the issue to a vote. Voting shall be done openly before those privy to the debate, and shall be
decided by majority vote unless otherwise
mandated. The method and timing of voting depends on the mode of communication:

A. When voting is being conducted via electronic mail, each Senator shall have at least
forty-eight hours to cast his vote. Should the
voting period elapse, any Senator that has yet to vote shall be assumed to have abbrogated his right
to vote on the issues at hand.
a. The presiding magistrate may stipulate a voting period of no less than forty-eight, and no
more than ninety-six hours.
b. It is recommended that the voting period begin at sunrise in Rome on the first day of the
voting period and end at sunset in Rome on
the last day of the voting period.

B. When voting is being conducted via means that allow real-time communication, voting shall be
done by a show of hands or some other
equally unambiguous method.

VII. Once voting on the matters at hand is complete, the tribunes of the plebs shall inform the
people of the outcome of the vote and the
presiding magistrate shall officially end the meeting of the Senate.

MAM: Uti Rogas
MCJ: UTI ROGAS
PC: UTI ROGAS (yes)
LCS: Vti Rogas
LEC: VTI ROGAS
CFQ: UTI ROGAS
QFM: VTI ROGAS While I see this as a "work in progress" I believe this set is better than the last.
AGG: VTI ROGAS
AICPM: UTI ROGAS. I find proposed rules to be reasonable and believe they will facilitate the work
of the Senate.
DIPI: UTI ROGAS
TLF: UTI ROGAS
CMM: Vti rogas I vote to adopt this new rule, although I would have liked the quorum to be
re-defined since we are revising Senate rules. I believe that
the idea of a majority of senator votes cast per session constituting a quorum should be considered.
MMA: UTI ROGAS
MOG: UTI ROGAS
LPO: UTI ROGAS
GSA: ABSTINEO. All added up, I see good ideas in this proposal. However, I would like to further
discuss some of its finer points and compare them with
historical practice. That's why I can not, in good conscience, vote either for or against this
proposal.
LSAO: Uti Rogas
LSD: VTI ROGAS.
ATMC: VTI ROGAS.

_____________

Item II:

The senate shall adopt the following policy with respect to taking the auspices prior to a senate
meeting. Note that this proposal
is slightly different from the one I previously presented for consideration.

Item II passes, establishing a requirement for auspices before a senate meeting.
(11 in favor, 5 opposing, 3 abstentions)

Senatus Consultum on Auspicious Meetings

I. The Senate shall meet only after favorable auspices have been
obtained for any given meeting.

II. The Board of Directors of Nova Roma, Inc. can be summoned without taking the auspices (though it
is desirable to do so if possible), but
can only consider macronational concerns of the corporation rather than the concerns of the nation
of Nova Roma.

III. If a magistrate who wishes to convene the Senate is unable to contact a member of the Collegium
Augurum over a period of five days, he
should then hold the auspices to the best of his ability.

IV. If a magistrate needs to call an emergency meeting of the Senate, he should hold the auspices to
the best of his ability before calling for
the emergency meeting.

V. In all cases in which a magistrate who is not also a member of the Collegium Augurum takes the
auspices for a meeting of the Senate, an
augur can overrule the auspices taken by that magistrate should he determine that the magistrate was
seriously in error in a matter of
importance. Additionally, a magistrate's taking of the auspices shall never be construed as
interfering with an augur's right of intercessio.

VI. The Senate hereby requests the Collegium Augurum to set up and maintain formal guidelines for a
magistrate to conduct the auspices for
a meeting of the Senate.

MAM: Abstineo
MCJ: ANTIQUO. As far as I know this proposal was created without the input of the Collegium, or the
Augurs. I would prefer to check more on historical precedence of such things, as well as consider
the legalities and exact definitions of "conducting macronational business vs. Nova Roma business."
PC: UTI ROGAS (yes)
LCS: Vti Rogas
LEC: VTI ROGAS, I'm working on a proposal, with others, that would correct, as far as possible, the
ahistoric conditions that exist now, and with this item.
CFQ: ABSTINEO It has been my intention to vote for this item, but during the last 24 hours I have
been involved in a discussion to change the
taking of Auspices to a system more according to the Mos Maiorum. This discussion has made me think
that this S.C. could become an
obstacle to more historically correct rules about the Auspices. I deeply regret that I in the last
minute change my vote and this way
surprises my highly respected Colleague Illustrus Titus Labienus Fortunatus.
QFM: VTI ROGAS This was a hard one. As a Pontifex I have to weigh the damage to the recreation
of the Religio with possible damage to the State.
While it is a-historical to have the augurs take the Auspices before the meetings, that was left to
the PS, the fact is, most of the Conscript Fathers know
nothing of the art, and worse may not be able to read the signs. The augurs do. Until the Senate
members are versed in augury, I'm going to have to
agree. So even though it is a-historical, I will accept it. However if the Gods express displeasure
at this arrangement, we will have to change it back.
AGG: ABSTINEO
AICPM: ANTIQUO Nevertheless I feel deep respect to the Fortune, I think there are situations we must
be able to adopt quick decisions. In that matter I agree
with Colleagues who ask the Auguri auspicies to be advisory only. Who makes decision may takes the
responsibility without matter when and what have
decided.
DIPI: UTI ROGAS
TLF: UTI ROGAS
CMM: Vti rogas I vote in favor of this consultum
MMA: UTI ROGAS
MOG: ANTIQUO! Auspices must be advisory, not mandatory, else we are crippled. There are enough
obstacles in the way of a successful Senate meeting already.
LPO: UTI ROGAS
GSA: ANTIQVO. Auspices should be read according to the Mos Maiorum. In Antiquity, the auspices were
not the monopoly of the augures. Neither should they be in Nova Roma
LSAO: ANTIQVO Comment: As others have said, I too find the proposed rules ahistorical and a
potential impediment to the functioning of this body.
LSD: VTI ROGAS It Seems that we have three choices, none of them historic. We can dispense with the
taking of the Auspices alltogather, We can have Magistrates who more than likely will have little
knowledge of what to observe, and who may not even beleave in the Imortals take the Auspices, or we
can have the Augurs, who never took the Auspices in Antiquita take them on behalf of Nova Roma. The
first two options carry the danger that we shall be meeting against the will of the Gods, after they
have sent signs informing us of this. The last option may be ahistoric, but it will allow us the
best chance of obtaining the favor of the
Gods. It will have to serve as the procedure until we reach the stage where the majority of our
magistrates are familar with the art.
ATMC: VTI ROGAS. Comment: I agree with my honorable collegue, Senator Drusus. We must wait until
most of the magistrates are familiar with
the art of taking the auspices.

Item III:

The senate is asked to choose one of the following options for the future of the Eagle. Each
senator is requested to vote for one and
only one of these proposals, or to vote no to both of them as he or she sees fit.

Option A passes, and the Eagle shall become an electronic publication.
[12 votes in favor of Option A, 4 in favor of option B, 3 abstentions]

A. Further to the senatus consultum of 3rd March regulating the publication of the Eagle, the
Curator is hereby inscructed to produce
the Eagle in a printable electronic format, either in PDF or in HTML, or both. A paper version may
be produced for those subscribers who still
wish to receive it, but no new subscribers shall be permitted to receive this version. A paper
version may also be produced, on the Senate's
request, to be distributed as publicity material.

B. A lex shall be promulgated which makes the Curator Differum a senate-appointed position. The
Curator shall be free to engage in
long-term projects and obligate Nova Roma to deliver the Eagle via subscriptions that extend beyond
the current year. Additionally, the
Curator shall be at liberty to determine the form of the Eagle, subject to oversight from the senate
and consuls. A Curator shall, upon
appointment, propose a budget for the Eagle to the senate, which the consuls shall present for a
senate vote at their earliest convenience.
The consuls shall have the power to amend this budget prior to presenting it to the senate if they
see fit, and the senate shall retain
the right to alter the Eagle's budget at any time.

MAM: Abstineo
MCJ: I vote for option A.
PC: UTI ROGAS (yes) to option A. I think it important to use technology to the fullest extent
possible to communicate among NR's members.
LCS: Option A.
LEC: VTI ROGAS favere 'A'
CFQ: I vote for option A.
QFM: ABSTAINO This is illegal insofar as SCs are yes or no votes. If this is to get the Senates'
thoughts on how the Eagle should be run, it should have been done unofficially on the floor, and the
one proposal chosen should be voted for. Not both like this.
AGG: ABSTINEO
AICPM: I vote for option A.I find that option to be effective, targeting more peoples with lower
costs and always under Senate control
DIPI: Palladius chooses option B. We have to produce something tangible, something real. Yet another
tacky internet magazine, no matter how
well done, is still another tacky internet magazine, which does not carry the cachet of a real
product one can hold in the hand. Kind of
like the difference between a virtual curia and a real one. Nearly everything in Nova Roma is
virtual, we must produce a real world,
hard-copy magazine, even if with fewer issues. Option A is the easy way to go but not the best way
to go for Nova Roma.
TLF: I choose option B.
CMM: Pro B I vote for version B.
MMA: Senator M. Minucius Audens chooses option A.
MOG: I vote for option A
LPO: I choose option A.
GSA: I choose option A.
LSAO: I choose option A.Comment: I am pleased and impressed by the volumes of the Eagle that I have
been receiving from the present Curator Differum, but I think that an Eagle in PDF format could be
just as professional and attractive while more widely available at lower production and delivery
cost.
LSD: Option B
ATMC: I vote for Option A

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16262 From: Petrus Domitianus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: edictum propraetoricum - provincia venedia
EDICTUM PROPRAETORICUM VENEDORUM VII About appointment of Legatus of
Regio Venedia Maritima

Ex Officio Propraetoris Venediae

1....I hereby appoint Cerialis Maxentius Flavius as Legatus of Regio
Venedia Maritima

2....Colberga - Kolobrzeg (home city of Cerialis Maxentius Flavius)
will be official residence of Legatus and capital of Regio Venedia
Maritima.


3.....This edictum becoms effective immediately

Given on November 11th in the year of the consulship
of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.


Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus
Propraetor Venediae

......................................................................
......................................................................
................

EDICTUM PROPRAETORICUM VENEDORUM VII Dotyczacy powolania Legata dla
Regio Venedia Maritima

Ex Officio Propraetoris Venediae

1....Powoluje Cerialisa Maxentiusa Flaviusa na Legata Regio Venedia
Maritima

2....Colberga - Kolobrzeg (rodzinne miasto Cerialisa Maxentiusa
Flaviusa ) bêdzie oficjalna siedziba Legata i stolica Regio Venedia
Maritima

6.....Edykt ten ma skutek natychmiastowy

Wydany 11 Listopada w roku konsularnym Caeso Fabiusa Quintilianusa
oraz
Titusa Labienusa Fortunatusa, 2756 AUC.

Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus
Propraetor Venediae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16263 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Ludi Plebeian - Final of the races
Salvete, qurites,

The finals of Ludi Plebeian race are sure a day worthy of all efforts to come to the circus.

The might aurigas just are coming on the grid!

1. Umbra Coccinea, driven by Florianus, Russata
2. Proeliator, driven by Gustavus Barbarus, Russata
2. Cheruscantis, driven by Unknown, Russata
4. Delecta Mea, driven by Crescens, Praesina

Subject of adoration by the factio members, these brave man has won over dirty tricks and dangerous velocity.

Fortuna fortis juvat? No! Estatistica multum juvat! Russata are barely kepping the cry ´almost win!´, while Praesina, poli hunted and omnia accursed, like Aeneas searched by all greek army, has mass slept on the stable to prevent the last best hope of winning, Delecta Mea, the ledice of all greens.

They run!

CHERUSCANTIS VICTORIOUS!

Without any accident or sabotage, the final grid is:

1. Cheruscantis > CHAMPION
2. Umbra Coccinea
3. Proeliator
4. Delecta Mea

But the problem! The auriga of Cheruscantis has not the name on the annals! Some said the scribas haven´t registered his name because they had to use the three new letters of Emperor Claudius...

One scribas comes to the winner, trying to erase the mistake, before the aedile punish them by this lack of care.

- What is your name, unknown auriga?
- My name is GLADIATOR!
- Oh, nice joke...

Aedile Faustus, happy by the sucessful end and the fair play factio Russata showed all game, gives the prize to god-like Philippus Arminius Remus, spite the accusations of bribing.

The reds are on the forum crying and singing their hymns, and Victoria statues are filled with red flowers. As the night falls, wine runs on abundance to celebrate the final of the last Ludi Circenses of the year.



Valete,



L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16264 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: The Census?
Salve Romans

If memory serves, the Census was to be completed in October. It is now almost the middle of November,

Is the census complete? If it is what were the results?

Inquiring minds want to know?


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16265 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Census?
Salve Tiberi Galeri,

The census was a mammoth task undertaken by many
people worldwide. Perhaps a little patience might be
in order. It was only officially completed less than
two weeks ago.

I'm sure the results will be forthcoming in due
course.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.

>
> If memory serves, the Census was to be completed in
> October. It is now almost the middle of November,
>
> Is the census complete? If it is what were the
> results?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know?
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16266 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: The Eagle 2756
Salve Romans

Ex animo

As the final touches are being applied to the the November and December issues and therefore the final ones for 2756, I wanted to take a few moments to thank the people most responsible for the revival of the Eagle and for the top quality that we have seen within it's pages this year.

The Staff of the Eagle!!!

They are called Scriba, writers and they are that and more!! They were and are the glue that held the Eagle together in good times and in bad. No matter what else was happing or not happing this merry group from around the world kept their collective ( g-d I hate that word) noses to the mill stone and kept on writing and drawing and in doing so kept my sprits up and the Eagle rolling along. I would like to thank them for the hard work and to tell you all a little more about them. I would like to thank:

Iulia Aenea Apollonia Musa
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Titus Arminius Genialis
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Livia Cornelia Hibernia
Falavi Galerius Aurelanus Secundus
Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
Aurelia Iulia Pulcra
Lucius Iulius Sulla
Marcus Iulius Perusianus
Gaius Lanius Falco
Albertus Minius Abrahaeus Vaticinator
Caius Minius Bellator
Coryphaeus Minius Leo Cambosia
Flavius Minius Clinamens
Pompeius Minius Aquila Palladius
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Gaius Modius Athanasius
Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis
Quintus Sertorius
Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix

for their dedication, work ethic, commitment, intelligence and steadfastness and to making the Eagle what it has been this year. In the following pages we introduce you to the staff so that we might get to know them a little better. I would also like to thank Q. Cassius Calvus, while he is not an official member of the staff ( by his request ) he is part of the Eagle family and has produced a great column all year on This month in Roman History, he has our thanks and appreciation for a job well done.

Thanks are extended as well to those other citizens who have contribute to the Eagle in the last year:

Lucius Aeneas Apollonius Nauta
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Patricia Cassia
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Lucius Cornelius Lupus
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Q. Fabius Maximus
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
Diana Moravia Aventina
Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus


I would also like to thank my three immediate predecessors as Curator Differum, Helena Galerius (Hi mom) Senators D. Iunius Palladius and M. Minucius Audens all three of which have given good, sound advice and counsel over the past year.

Next I wish to express my sincere thanks to those individuals who gave us permission to reprint or use something from their Website. The amount and quality of information on Rome and related subjects is mind boggling.

THANK YOU:
Brad Blair
David Camden
Leo C. Curran
Meredith Drye
Robin Fleming
Irene Hahn
Jona Lendering
Cathrine E. Lowther
Dr. John Porter
Javier Rodriguez
David R. Sears
Stephen Stewart
Mattias VÃ¥gberg
Peter White
Hadrian's Wall Education Website
YLE, the Finnish Broadcasting Co.
Worcester Museum of Art

Lastly , I would like to thank our financial patrons for their indispensable support for the Eagle!

THANK YOU

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola!!!
Marcus Cassius Julianus,
L. Suetonius Nerva,
and those who choose to remain anonymous.

Your generous support and that of our few advertisers has helped produce a better Eagle than would otherwise been possible.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum 2756
Fortuna Favet Fortibus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16267 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salvete everyone,
It seems to get to know everyone I must get involved and this seems
to be "the" subject du jour.
I can't argue with the comments of Empires, politics and blood so i
will naturally agree.
I've tried to go back and follow this thread but have gotten lost
(not very good tracking skills on my part).
The subject is called J.C. T-shirt and is about WWII, specifically
Germany and Nazi involvment and how not all Germans have the Nazi
mentality and not all Nazi are of German backround.

I am trying to recap and summarize here the main points before making
any comment.
Is this accurate or are there some other major points I failed to
find.
Was this the original thought on this topic or did it start someplace
else and morph into this.
Thanks for your time and patience.
I would like to understand the main idea being discussed so I can
make a contribution from a different point of view.
Valete,
Justinian



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> Nicely said Cousin
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus of the Bavarian Galeria (Ott's)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
>
>
> Patrick Owen aka F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.
>
> It is very hard for anyone, including objective historians not to
have very bitter feelings about Germany and its leadership during the
NAZI period. There is no way that anyone that I count as a person of
integrity could understand or even intellectually condone the
deliberate suspension of law and the killing of Jews, Slavs, Gypsys,
homosexuals, and even German political dissidents in the completely
callous, brutal, and factory-like way that the NAZI regime carried
out the Holocaust. To this day, whenever I hear some White Supremist
say that the Holocaust never happened and it is all propaganda, I
want to punch that illegitimus right in his mouth.
> My daddy, several of my uncles, and my father-in-law were all
WWII veterans and I am proud of their achievements against the Axis
during that war. I also have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the
WBTS on both sides and I respect both sides even though I don't agree
with the politics or motivations of one of them because the fought to
support a moral evil. However, that war is over and family is still
family no matter what. Empires are transient, politics ephemeral,
but blood and family remain. Vale.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16268 From: Aki H J Himmanen Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Greetings from a new citizen
Salvete omnes,

Greetings from a new citizen from Thule Provincia. I recently subscribed
to this list and have been following your discussions with great interest.
I hope to contribute at greater length soon.

For now,
valete
Marcus Quirinius Placidus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16269 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
--- Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@...>
wrote:
> Salvete everyone,
> My name is Trajan Justinian and am new here.
> I started out in the Religio section (on the wrong
> foot which landed
> in my mouth but things are better now) and was told
> by Mercurius to
> check out this list for interesting information and
> discussions.
>
> I can see I am in over my head here so won't bother
> anyone with
> stupid questions.
> I hope to be able to say something worthy of the
> history majors here
> soon enough though.
> Valete
> Justinian
>

Welcome Justinian,

I would also encouarge you to become an official
Nova Roman citizen as well. The link for citizenship
is:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/apply

You can fill out the application even before you
have approval to join a gens from the mater/pater.

Not all members of Nova Roma are equally versed
in the histrocial aspects of ancient Rome, but I
believe we are all striving to learn more.

Lucius Quintius Constantius

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16270 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings from a new citizen
Salve Honorable Marcus Quirinius Placidus!

I am the Propraetor (Governor) of Thule (The Nordic Contries) and if
You need some information You are wellcome to ask me privately.

At the moment I am also the Senior Consul of Nova Roma (a position
that I will leave the 31st of December ;-) ) and may be abit
occupied. ;-)

You can also contact my Legatus Regio Suecica Honorable Gallus
Minicius Iovinius at the following address: xkrull@...

>Salvete omnes,
>
>Greetings from a new citizen from Thule Provincia. I recently subscribed
>to this list and have been following your discussions with great interest.
>I hope to contribute at greater length soon.
>
>For now,
>valete
>Marcus Quirinius Placidus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16271 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Thank you,
Troianus Mercurius has been very helpful as well and encouraged me to
apply but i need to wait until April when i become 18.
I am studying in the meantime so i can be a useful citizen when the
time comes.
I hope it is OK if I still get involved with your discussions until
then.
If not, I understand and will hold back till April.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@y...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete everyone,
> > My name is Trajan Justinian and am new here.
> > I started out in the Religio section (on the wrong
> > foot which landed
> > in my mouth but things are better now) and was told
> > by Mercurius to
> > check out this list for interesting information and
> > discussions.
> >
> > I can see I am in over my head here so won't bother
> > anyone with
> > stupid questions.
> > I hope to be able to say something worthy of the
> > history majors here
> > soon enough though.
> > Valete
> > Justinian
> >
>
> Welcome Justinian,
>
> I would also encouarge you to become an official
> Nova Roman citizen as well. The link for citizenship
> is:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/apply
>
> You can fill out the application even before you
> have approval to join a gens from the mater/pater.
>
> Not all members of Nova Roma are equally versed
> in the histrocial aspects of ancient Rome, but I
> believe we are all striving to learn more.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16272 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Census?
Salve


The census ended, and the results are beginning to
flow to the census list. We received the results of 6
provinces.


Vale
M.Arminius
Scriba censorialis

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> escreveu: >
Salve Romans
>
> If memory serves, the Census was to be completed in
> October. It is now almost the middle of November,
> Is the census complete? If it is what were the
> results?
> Inquiring minds want to know?
>
> Vale
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


______________________________________________________________________

Yahoo! Mail: 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito! Crie sua conta agora:
http://mail.yahoo.com.br
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16273 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salve Tiberius!

I agree - nicely said indeed!
You know, we may be actual Cousins in fact: My Grandfather was a Kunz, but I know there were many other names among the cousins, & at this late hour I cannot recall where they were from in Deutchland, but while some went North, I know for a fact that some also went South! (Need to look at that familly stamp album again!)
My Grandmother - without naming names - succinctly summed it up as our Ancestors coming from all the Germanic States, all of the British Isles (my Father's side), and Normandy. It would take a great deal of research to determine each one's names and where precisely they were from!

FYI - I have Applied for Citizenship!

Vale
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
Sent: Nov 10, 2003 8:26 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

<html><body>


<tt>
Salve <BR>
<BR>
Nicely said Cousin <BR>
<BR>
Vale<BR>
<BR>
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus of the Bavarian Galeria  (Ott's)<BR>
  ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
  From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <BR>
  To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <BR>
  Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:27 AM<BR>
  Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  Patrick Owen aka F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.<BR>
<BR>
  It is very hard for anyone, including objective historians not to have very bitter feelings about Germany and its leadership during the NAZI period.  There is no way that anyone that I count as a person of integrity could understand or even intellectually condone the deliberate suspension of law and the killing of Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, homosexuals, and even German political dissidents in the completely callous, brutal, and factory-like way that the NAZI regime carried out the Holocaust.  To this day, whenever I hear some White Supremist say that the Holocaust never happened and it is all propaganda, I want to punch that illegitimus right in his mouth.<BR>
  My daddy, several of my uncles, and my father-in-law were all WWII veterans and I am proud of their achievements against the Axis during that war.  I also have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the WBTS on both sides and I respect both sides even though I don't agree with the politics or motivations of one of them because the fought to support a moral evil.  However, that war is over and family is still family no matter what.  Empires are transient, politics ephemeral, but blood and family remain.  Vale. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
  Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
   <BR>
<BR>
  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16274 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Salve Iustinianus!

To follow a Thread, go to the Yahoo Groups page where the Main List is. Click on any of the Messages labelled "Julius Caesar T-Shirt, go to the bottom of the page & you will see a button labelled "Thread" - Click it. You are now in the Thread; you can then go back to the beginning of the Thread and follow the whole thing! It was quite a lively discussion, but ended upon several Citizens' requests (we were beginning to repeat ourselves!); Therefore we "loosed the Doves of Peace" and closed it.
Check out the Thread - it really was quite lively!!

Vale
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@...>
Sent: Nov 11, 2003 10:15 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete everyone,<BR>
It seems to get to know everyone I must get involved and this seems <BR>
to be "the" subject du jour.<BR>
I can't argue with the comments of Empires, politics and blood so i <BR>
will naturally agree.<BR>
I've tried to go back and follow this thread but have gotten lost <BR>
(not very good tracking skills on my part).<BR>
The subject is called J.C. T-shirt and is about WWII, specifically <BR>
Germany and Nazi involvment and how not all Germans have the Nazi <BR>
mentality and not all Nazi are of German backround.<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to recap and summarize here the main points before making <BR>
any comment.<BR>
Is this accurate or are there some other major points I failed to <BR>
find.<BR>
Was this the original thought on this topic or did it start someplace <BR>
else and morph into this.<BR>
Thanks for your time and patience.<BR>
I would like to understand the main idea being discussed so I can <BR>
make a contribution from a different point of view.<BR>
Valete,<BR>
Justinian<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...> <BR>
wrote:<BR>
> Salve <BR>
> <BR>
> Nicely said Cousin <BR>
> <BR>
> Vale<BR>
> <BR>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus of the Bavarian Galeria  (Ott's)<BR>
>   ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
>   From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... <BR>
>   To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <BR>
>   Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:27 AM<BR>
>   Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>   Patrick Owen aka F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.<BR>
> <BR>
>   It is very hard for anyone, including objective historians not to <BR>
have very bitter feelings about Germany and its leadership during the <BR>
NAZI period.  There is no way that anyone that I count as a person of <BR>
integrity could understand or even intellectually condone the <BR>
deliberate suspension of law and the killing of Jews, Slavs, Gypsys, <BR>
homosexuals, and even German political dissidents in the completely <BR>
callous, brutal, and factory-like way that the NAZI regime carried <BR>
out the Holocaust.  To this day, whenever I hear some White Supremist <BR>
say that the Holocaust never happened and it is all propaganda, I <BR>
want to punch that illegitimus right in his mouth.<BR>
>   My daddy, several of my uncles, and my father-in-law were all <BR>
WWII veterans and I am proud of their achievements against the Axis <BR>
during that war.  I also have a bunch of ancestors who fought in the <BR>
WBTS on both sides and I respect both sides even though I don't agree <BR>
with the politics or motivations of one of them because the fought to <BR>
support a moral evil.  However, that war is over and family is still <BR>
family no matter what.  Empires are transient, politics ephemeral, <BR>
but blood and family remain.  Vale. <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
>   Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> <BR>
>    <BR>
> <BR>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <BR>
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16275 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
A. Apollonius Cordus to Troianus Mercurius and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Forgive me for going off at a tangent, but I couldn't
help noticing that you said:

> As it was with Iulius Caesar, so it was with Irwin
> Rommel: A person possessed of genuine Genius who
> fought on behalf of his Country, not its leaders.

I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I
think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of
genuine genius who fought against his country on
behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think? :)

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16276 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Greetings from a new citizen
Salve Honorable Marcus Quirinius Placidus!

I must correct myself, I just saw that You live in Regio Finnica,
then You should contact my Legatus Regionis Finnica Honorable Caius
Curius Saturninus at the following address: c.curius@...

>You can also contact my Legatus Regio Suecica Honorable Gallus
>Minicius Iovinius at the following address: xkrull@...
>--
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Senior Consul et Senator
>Propraetor Thules
>Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
>Civis Romanus sum
>************************************************
>Cohors Consulis CFQ
>http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
>************************************************
>Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
>"I'll either find a way or make one"
>************************************************
>Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
>Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16277 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Salve A. Apollonius Cordus who said

"I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of genuine genius who fought against his country on behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think? "

It depends who how you define "Country"

The Republic of the Oligarch's and everybody else be dammed or the "The Senate and People of Rome".

It seems that a large number of Caesars contemporaries lost sight that the "people" where half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman history the plebians walked out because their need and wants were not being considered. The Oligarch's never had a plan except their own hold on power. ( They reminded me a great deal of the Democratic party in the USA).

As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would have done, His repeated attempts at compromise fell on deaf ears. The only Unconstitutional action Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon, was after his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on him.

How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the feet of his opponents?

How many commands/offices did Pompey have that were at best "extra-constitutional"

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:20 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)


A. Apollonius Cordus to Troianus Mercurius and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Forgive me for going off at a tangent, but I couldn't
help noticing that you said:

> As it was with Iulius Caesar, so it was with Irwin
> Rommel: A person possessed of genuine Genius who
> fought on behalf of his Country, not its leaders.

I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I
think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of
genuine genius who fought against his country on
behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think? :)

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16278 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Salve,
Would i be correct in thinking that dignitas here means place in
society as opposed to ones morals or ethics?
I'm guessing that as ones social stature changes then you might also
change your own morals and ethics to go along with that position.
Maybe it is the same thing and I'm over thinking the situation.
Vale,
Justinian

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Troianus Mercurius and all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> Forgive me for going off at a tangent, but I couldn't
> help noticing that you said:
>
> > As it was with Iulius Caesar, so it was with Irwin
> > Rommel: A person possessed of genuine Genius who
> > fought on behalf of his Country, not its leaders.
>
> I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I
> think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of
> genuine genius who fought against his country on
> behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think? :)
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!
> Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16279 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Salve Tiberius Galerius Paulinus,
Regarding the plebians walking out . . . .
Didn't Rommel under the direction of Adolf Hitler do the same thing
with the Socialist party when their demands were not met.
I may be wrong but I remember learning something along those lines
that Hitler pressured the party to name him chancelor by having the
socialist members walk out on a vote or something.
Vale Justinian




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve A. Apollonius Cordus who said
>
> "I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I think it
would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of genuine genius who
fought against his country on behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you
think? "
>
> It depends who how you define "Country"
>
> The Republic of the Oligarch's and everybody else be dammed or
the "The Senate and People of Rome".
>
> It seems that a large number of Caesars contemporaries lost sight
that the "people" where half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman
history the plebians walked out because their need and wants were
not being considered. The Oligarch's never had a plan except their
own hold on power. ( They reminded me a great deal of the
Democratic party in the USA).
>
> As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would have done, His
repeated attempts at compromise fell on deaf ears. The only
Unconstitutional action Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon,
was after his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on him.
>
> How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the feet of his
opponents?
>
> How many commands/offices did Pompey have that were at best "extra-
constitutional"
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: A. Apollonius Cordus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:20 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius
Caesar T-Shirt)
>
>
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Troianus Mercurius and all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> Forgive me for going off at a tangent, but I couldn't
> help noticing that you said:
>
> > As it was with Iulius Caesar, so it was with Irwin
> > Rommel: A person possessed of genuine Genius who
> > fought on behalf of his Country, not its leaders.
>
> I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I
> think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of
> genuine genius who fought against his country on
> behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think? :)
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!
> Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16280 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Salve Lucius Quintius Constantius!

Traian Iustinianus will turn 18 in April, which gives him plenty of time to pick just the right Gens.
He is in N.Y., so any Gentes with strong New York membership please let him know who you are! I have been maintaining an ongoing private correspondance with him, since his initial faux pas last week, and want to assure you that any Gens lucky enough to get this fine intelligent Enthusiastic young man will be truly blessed by Fortuna indeed!!
{Were he in Mediatlantia I would adopt him myself without hesitation!}

Vale,
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: politicog <politicog@...>
Sent: Nov 11, 2003 8:54 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Salvete

<html><body>


<tt>
<BR>
--- Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@...><BR>
wrote:<BR>
> Salvete everyone,<BR>
> My name is Trajan Justinian and am new here.<BR>
> I started out in the Religio section (on the wrong<BR>
> foot which landed <BR>
> in my mouth but things are better now) and was told<BR>
> by Mercurius to <BR>
> check out this list for interesting information and<BR>
> discussions.<BR>
> <BR>
> I can see I am in over my head here so won't bother<BR>
> anyone with <BR>
> stupid questions.<BR>
> I hope to be able to say something worthy of the<BR>
> history majors here <BR>
> soon enough though.<BR>
> Valete <BR>
> Justinian<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
  Welcome Justinian,<BR>
<BR>
      I would also encouarge you to become an official<BR>
Nova Roman citizen as well.  The link for citizenship<BR>
is:<BR>
<BR>
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/bin/apply">http://www.novaroma.org/bin/apply</a><BR>
<BR>
     You can fill out the application even before you<BR>
have approval to join a gens from the mater/pater.<BR>
<BR>
     Not all members of Nova Roma are equally versed<BR>
in the histrocial aspects of ancient Rome, but I<BR>
believe we are all striving to learn more.<BR>
<BR>
Lucius Quintius Constantius<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________<BR>
Do you Yahoo!?<BR>
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard<BR>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16281 From: Pinar Saglav Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Salvete
Salve Trajan,

Of course it's okay to hang around and take part in the discussions until April! :) I think it'd be for the better anyway, you'll get a better idea of who's who and who's doing what and how Nova Roma works as a community. You'll also get to meet people from different Gens and you'll have a better idea in applying to a Gens when the time comes. Feel free to post about things Roman, related to Roman or the questions you might have (and I see you've been doing just that). Usually one person, or another will have time to answer your questions, I'm sure. I remember the first time you came around, and look how much you're actually contributing now. Don't feel discouraged that you're not a citizen, it's not long till it's April.

Once more, welcome.

Vale,

Hiera Cassia
----- Original Message -----
From: Trajan Justinian
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:21 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Salvete


Thank you,
Troianus Mercurius has been very helpful as well and encouraged me to
apply but i need to wait until April when i become 18.
I am studying in the meantime so i can be a useful citizen when the
time comes.
I hope it is OK if I still get involved with your discussions until
then.
If not, I understand and will hold back till April.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16282 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Eagle 2756
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> for their dedication, work ethic, commitment, intelligence and
steadfastness and to making the Eagle what it has been this year. In
the following pages we introduce you to the staff so that we might get
to know them a little better. I would also like to thank Q. Cassius
Calvus, while he is not an official member of the staff ( by his
request ) he is part of the Eagle family and has produced a great
column all year on This month in Roman History, he has our thanks and
appreciation for a job well done.

Salve,

You're most welcome. Unfortunately most of the events dated during
the Imperial Period due to my inability to exactly pinpoint the exact
dates of events that occured prior to the Julian reforms of 45 BCE.
Before the reforms the Roman year was 355 days long with an
intercalational month of Mercedonius of 27 or 28 days added every two
years by decree of the Pontifices. However the Pontifices were not
always all that attentive to the calendar being in synch with the
solar year so the pre-Julian calendar was more often than not
completely out of synch with the seasons. Just because the a
historial source says that calendar said it was Maius don't be
surprised if weather descriptions sound more like October.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16283 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: The Census?
> I'm sure the results will be forthcoming in due
> course.

Yes; most likely this weekend I'll do some database queries to show
the types of citizens, and how many registered by each method, in
each province.

Additionally, a few days before the election for next year's magistrates
begins, the tribes and centuries will be reallocated according to the
results of the census, and new voter codes will be assigned to all.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16284 From: G. Valerius Publicola Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Long absession
С VALERIVS PVBLICOLA SALVTEM
PLVRIMAM OMNIBVS DICIT.

May the gods blessed all of you, my dearest concives!
(not my provider)

Now I downloaded all epistolas after my hard connect problem!

I've a sense that I returned to my humble home!

Can you imagine, last month i was elected to the Parlaiment of the
Younth of Kemerovo Region of Russia!

--
C VALERIVS PVBLICOLA

VALETE
mailto:alexus1978@...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16285 From: NipperF@aol.com Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Ludi Victoria Military Contest Article for Militarium
Servius Fidelius Longinus Praefecto Castorum Marco Minucio Audens S.P.D.

Thank you for your kind words. I found the contest to be great fun and a
motivator to learn Roman tactics, organization, and other aspects of period life.
I would be honored to submit an article for Militarium regarding my
experiences in the contest. Please let me know any special guidelines for submission
and preferred format. I can easily do a WORD document and post such to you.

It was a pleasure hearing from you and I very much appreciate your warm
words. Shall be looking forward to hearing back from you.

Vale!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16286 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-11
Subject: Re: Ludi Victoria Military Contest Article for Militarium
Salve Servius Fidelius,

You wrote, about the Ludi Victoria Military Contest:
> Please let me know any special guidelines for submission
> and preferred format. I can easily do a WORD document and post such to you.

No, please post in plain text. That is the prefered format of the Militarium
mailing list.

I would also be quite interested in your perspective on the contest. I watched
it unfold as you and the others participated, and I had also run through the
game plan with Quintus Fabius before we ever put the ten of you through the
wringer. I must say that not only were you a decisive and capable commander,
you were also positively *kind* in your treatment of the native tribes. Not
many Roman generals would have been, but it worked to your advantage.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Cornicularus Minor, Sodalitas Militarium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16287 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Salvete Omnes

White it is true that both gentlemen were military geniuses, and both behaved with exemplary dignitas and decorum, in the end their situations are not at all parallel - so let's head this off before it turns into another "T-Shirt Commentaries," Please!

G. Iulius Caesar fought against his own people to remove a corrupted Government, after defeating his countries' enemies.
Feld Marshall Irwin Rommel fought his country's enemies honourable, but failed to take action against his own corrupt Rulers.

While civil wars are horrible, nevertheless I believe it is clear that G. Iulius Caesar was overall the more Virtuous, which is to say he did a better job of Living the Virtues we hold dear. That being said, let us please avoid another digression into discussing Nazism. In Sum: Nazis are bad, Rommel was good, but Caesar was better - let's leave it at that and end this thread please!

Valete
Troianus Mercurius


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
Sent: Nov 11, 2003 12:14 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)

<html><body>


<tt>
Salve A. Apollonius Cordus  who said <BR>
<BR>
"I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of genuine genius who fought against his country on behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think?  "<BR>
<BR>
It depends who how you define "Country" <BR>
<BR>
The Republic of the Oligarch's and everybody else be dammed or the "The Senate and People of Rome". <BR>
<BR>
It seems that a large number of Caesars contemporaries lost sight that the "people" where half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman history  the plebians walked out because their need and wants were not being considered. The Oligarch's never had a plan except their own hold  on  power. ( They reminded me a great deal of the Democratic party in the USA).<BR>
<BR>
As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would have done, His repeated attempts at compromise fell on deaf ears. The only Unconstitutional action Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon, was after his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on him.<BR>
<BR>
How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the feet of his opponents?<BR>
<BR>
How many commands/offices did Pompey have that were at best "extra-constitutional" <BR>
<BR>
Vale<BR>
<BR>
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
  From: A. Apollonius Cordus <BR>
  To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <BR>
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:20 PM<BR>
  Subject: [Nova-Roma] Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  A. Apollonius Cordus to Troianus Mercurius and all<BR>
  citizens and peregrines, greetings.<BR>
<BR>
  Forgive me for going off at a tangent, but I couldn't<BR>
  help noticing that you said:<BR>
<BR>
  >   As it was with Iulius Caesar, so it was with Irwin<BR>
  > Rommel: A person possessed of genuine Genius who<BR>
  > fought on behalf of his Country, not its leaders. <BR>
<BR>
  I don't know about Rommel, but as far as Caesar goes I<BR>
  think it would be fairer to say 'A person possessed of<BR>
  genuine genius who fought against his country on<BR>
  behalf of his own dignitas' - don't you think?  :)<BR>
<BR>
  ________________________________________________________________________<BR>
  Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!<BR>
  Messenger <a href="http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk">http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk</a><BR>
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<BR>
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  Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
   <BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16288 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Greetings from a new citizen
Salve Marcus Quirinius Placidus!

Welcome to the most interesting, intelligent and downright excellent group of people it has ever been my pleasure to meet! Just got here myself a couple of weeks ago, and I'm sure you're going feel just as welcomed!
As a fellow newcomer, if there's anything I do to help you in any way just let me know!

Vale
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: Aki H J Himmanen <himmanen@...>
Sent: Nov 11, 2003 12:55 AM
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Greetings from a new citizen

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete omnes,<BR>
<BR>
Greetings from a new citizen from Thule Provincia. I recently subscribed<BR>
to this list and have been following your discussions with great interest.<BR>
I hope to contribute at greater length soon.<BR>
<BR>
For now,<BR>
valete<BR>
Marcus Quirinius Placidus<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16289 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Roman Calendar
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Roman Calendar":

http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/aegsa/rome/romec.html

The site has a nice representation of the Iulian calendar in the style
of the pre-Iulian painted fasti of Antium, with instructions for using
the format and photographs of other fasti. The calendrical
information is basically sound, but I wouldn't put much faith in the
author's quips about Roman taxation rates.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16290 From: Merope Zicos Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Graecia
Salve my fellow friends!


I have a question I'd like to throw out: Where does the name 'Graecia' come from in Latin? I am aware of the fact that the Romans gave the coutry its name. Furthermore, we the country is known a 'Greece' but in Greek it is 'Hellas' (Ellada actually). I am Greek and I've had this question in my mind for a while.

I can't wait to hear you etymologies!

Thanks!

Aurelia Iulia Minervina


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16291 From: Merope Zicos Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Salve Trajan Justinian!

I was so excited to see that you are so young and you have joined this amazing group of people. I am 19 years old (20 in three months) and aat first I felt uncomfortable in taking part in NR but my great interest in Linguistics and Languages in general could not keep me away from the registration page!
In other words 'Welcome' and I hope you enjoy it here.

What are you studying? You meantioned that briefly in a previous email.



Vale,

Aurelia Iulia Minervina





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16292 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Munera canceled
Salvete,

The Ludi Plebeian Munera is hereby canceled.

I personally testimoned so bad omens when starting to do the calculations than only if I would be a fool I would continue that.

The scribas are ready to receive back the tickets and give you the sestertii.


Valete,



L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16293 From: Marcus Iulius Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
ave Pauline,

thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!

M IVL PERVSIANVS

Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which killed 12
Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.


------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:00:51 -0500
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
Subject: The Eagle 2756

Salve Romans

Ex animo

As the final touches are being applied to the the November and December
issues and therefore the final ones for 2756, I wanted to take a few moments
to thank the people most responsible for the revival of the Eagle and for
the top quality that we have seen within it's pages this year.

The Staff of the Eagle!!!

They are called Scriba, writers and they are that and more!! They were and
are the glue that held the Eagle together in good times and in bad. No
matter what else was happing or not happing this merry group from around
the world kept their collective ( g-d I hate that word) noses to the mill
stone and kept on writing and drawing and in doing so kept my sprits up
and the Eagle rolling along. I would like to thank them for the hard work
and to tell you all a little more about them. I would like to thank:

Iulia Aenea Apollonia Musa
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Titus Arminius Genialis
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Livia Cornelia Hibernia
Falavi Galerius Aurelanus Secundus
Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
Aurelia Iulia Pulcra
Lucius Iulius Sulla
Marcus Iulius Perusianus
Gaius Lanius Falco
Albertus Minius Abrahaeus Vaticinator
Caius Minius Bellator
Coryphaeus Minius Leo Cambosia
Flavius Minius Clinamens
Pompeius Minius Aquila Palladius
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Gaius Modius Athanasius
Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis
Quintus Sertorius
Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix

for their dedication, work ethic, commitment, intelligence and steadfastness
and to making the Eagle what it has been this year. In the following pages
we introduce you to the staff so that we might get to know them a little
better. I would also like to thank Q. Cassius Calvus, while he is not an
official member of the staff ( by his request ) he is part of the Eagle
family and has produced a great column all year on This month in Roman History,
he has our thanks and appreciation for a job well done.

Thanks are extended as well to those other citizens who have contribute
to the Eagle in the last year:

Lucius Aeneas Apollonius Nauta
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Patricia Cassia
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Lucius Cornelius Lupus
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Q. Fabius Maximus
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
Diana Moravia Aventina
Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus


I would also like to thank my three immediate predecessors as Curator Differum,
Helena Galerius (Hi mom) Senators D. Iunius Palladius and M. Minucius Audens
all three of which have given good, sound advice and counsel over the past
year.

Next I wish to express my sincere thanks to those individuals who gave
us permission to reprint or use something from their Website. The amount
and quality of information on Rome and related subjects is mind boggling.

THANK YOU:
Brad Blair
David Camden
Leo C. Curran
Meredith Drye
Robin Fleming
Irene Hahn
Jona Lendering
Cathrine E. Lowther
Dr. John Porter
Javier Rodriguez
David R. Sears
Stephen Stewart
Mattias VÃ¥gberg
Peter White
Hadrian's Wall Education Website
YLE, the Finnish Broadcasting Co.
Worcester Museum of Art

Lastly , I would like to thank our financial patrons for their indispensable
support for the Eagle!

THANK YOU

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola!!!
Marcus Cassius Julianus,
L. Suetonius Nerva,
and those who choose to remain anonymous.

Your generous support and that of our few advertisers has helped produce
a better Eagle than would otherwise been possible.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum 2756
Fortuna Favet Fortibus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16294 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
My fellow american soldiers are killed everyday. In the immortal words of Bruce Willis in the 'Die Hard ' movies. "Welcome to the party, pal."
As a policeman myself, I feel thier loss because no matter the nation, we are all basically doing the same job. But I have one question, you do not have to answer it.
Do you mourn our forces as well?

Marcus Iulius <m_iulius@...> wrote:
ave Pauline,

thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!

M IVL PERVSIANVS

Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which killed 12
Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.


------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:00:51 -0500
From: "Stephen Gallagher"
Subject: The Eagle 2756

Salve Romans

Ex animo

As the final touches are being applied to the the November and December
issues and therefore the final ones for 2756, I wanted to take a few moments
to thank the people most responsible for the revival of the Eagle and for
the top quality that we have seen within it's pages this year.

The Staff of the Eagle!!!

They are called Scriba, writers and they are that and more!! They were and
are the glue that held the Eagle together in good times and in bad. No
matter what else was happing or not happing this merry group from around
the world kept their collective ( g-d I hate that word) noses to the mill
stone and kept on writing and drawing and in doing so kept my sprits up
and the Eagle rolling along. I would like to thank them for the hard work
and to tell you all a little more about them. I would like to thank:

Iulia Aenea Apollonia Musa
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Titus Arminius Genialis
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Livia Cornelia Hibernia
Falavi Galerius Aurelanus Secundus
Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
Aurelia Iulia Pulcra
Lucius Iulius Sulla
Marcus Iulius Perusianus
Gaius Lanius Falco
Albertus Minius Abrahaeus Vaticinator
Caius Minius Bellator
Coryphaeus Minius Leo Cambosia
Flavius Minius Clinamens
Pompeius Minius Aquila Palladius
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Gaius Modius Athanasius
Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis
Quintus Sertorius
Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix

for their dedication, work ethic, commitment, intelligence and steadfastness
and to making the Eagle what it has been this year. In the following pages
we introduce you to the staff so that we might get to know them a little
better. I would also like to thank Q. Cassius Calvus, while he is not an
official member of the staff ( by his request ) he is part of the Eagle
family and has produced a great column all year on This month in Roman History,
he has our thanks and appreciation for a job well done.

Thanks are extended as well to those other citizens who have contribute
to the Eagle in the last year:

Lucius Aeneas Apollonius Nauta
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Patricia Cassia
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Lucius Cornelius Lupus
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Q. Fabius Maximus
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
Diana Moravia Aventina
Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus


I would also like to thank my three immediate predecessors as Curator Differum,
Helena Galerius (Hi mom) Senators D. Iunius Palladius and M. Minucius Audens
all three of which have given good, sound advice and counsel over the past
year.

Next I wish to express my sincere thanks to those individuals who gave
us permission to reprint or use something from their Website. The amount
and quality of information on Rome and related subjects is mind boggling.

THANK YOU:
Brad Blair
David Camden
Leo C. Curran
Meredith Drye
Robin Fleming
Irene Hahn
Jona Lendering
Cathrine E. Lowther
Dr. John Porter
Javier Rodriguez
David R. Sears
Stephen Stewart
Mattias V�gberg
Peter White
Hadrian's Wall Education Website
YLE, the Finnish Broadcasting Co.
Worcester Museum of Art

Lastly , I would like to thank our financial patrons for their indispensable
support for the Eagle!

THANK YOU

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola!!!
Marcus Cassius Julianus,
L. Suetonius Nerva,
and those who choose to remain anonymous.

Your generous support and that of our few advertisers has helped produce
a better Eagle than would otherwise been possible.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum 2756
Fortuna Favet Fortibus



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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16295 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Salvete Marce et Omnes,
as italian and Propraetor Italiae, I add my sad thought to the 14
(the number is growing) Carabinieri killed tomorrow in Iraq. This
is a sad day for all the italians...
I send the same thought to all the soldiers, americans and others,
died in this war.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
wrote:
> ave Pauline,
>
> thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
>
> Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which
killed 12
> Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16296 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Thank you, sir. My prayers go out to the families of your lost policemen. I will light another candle for them tonight.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar <sacro_barese_impero@...> wrote:Salvete Marce et Omnes,
as italian and Propraetor Italiae, I add my sad thought to the 14
(the number is growing) Carabinieri killed tomorrow in Iraq. This
is a sad day for all the italians...
I send the same thought to all the soldiers, americans and others,
died in this war.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
wrote:
> ave Pauline,
>
> thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
>
> Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which
killed 12
> Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.


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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16297 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Thank you,
I know I made mistakes (big ones) but I hope to make up for them.
Mercurius has been very, very helpful and I'm embarrassed at his
confidance and expectations, I hope to live up to his description,
lol.
Thank you all again for the second chance.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Pinar Saglav" <psaglav@n...> wrote:
> Salve Trajan,
>
> Of course it's okay to hang around and take part in the discussions
until April! :) I think it'd be for the better anyway, you'll get a
better idea of who's who and who's doing what and how Nova Roma works
as a community. You'll also get to meet people from different Gens
and you'll have a better idea in applying to a Gens when the time
comes. Feel free to post about things Roman, related to Roman or the
questions you might have (and I see you've been doing just that).
Usually one person, or another will have time to answer your
questions, I'm sure. I remember the first time you came around, and
look how much you're actually contributing now. Don't feel
discouraged that you're not a citizen, it's not long till it's April.
>
> Once more, welcome.
>
> Vale,
>
> Hiera Cassia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Trajan Justinian
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:21 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Salvete
>
>
> Thank you,
> Troianus Mercurius has been very helpful as well and encouraged
me to
> apply but i need to wait until April when i become 18.
> I am studying in the meantime so i can be a useful citizen when
the
> time comes.
> I hope it is OK if I still get involved with your discussions
until
> then.
> If not, I understand and will hold back till April.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16298 From: Roger Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
>
> The census ended, and the results are beginning to
> flow to the census list. We received the results of 6
> provinces.
>
>
> Vale
> M.Arminius
> Scriba censorialis
>
>
I'm confused. Was the census completed in all Provinces? I do
not recall being contacted for census information for Lacus Magni.

Lucius Quintius Constantius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16299 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Lucius Quintius Constantius writes:

> I'm confused. Was the census completed in all Provinces? I do
> not recall being contacted for census information for Lacus Magni.

Active citizens (by which I mean anybody who votes or pays taxes) were
considered Censi for census purposes. The phone calls and written
letters went out to people who have neither voted nor paid taxes.

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16300 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Salve

If you voted or paid your taxes you would not have
been contacted as you would have been registered as
censi automatically.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Scriba Censoris

> I'm confused. Was the census completed in all
> Provinces? I do
> not recall being contacted for census information
> for Lacus Magni.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius


________________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16301 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Call For Candidates
T Labienus Fortunatus Consul Quiritibus SPD

I hereby call for candidates to stand for election to the following positions.
Anyone wishing to serve in any of these positions must have been a civis for at
least six months by Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVII (January 1st, 2004). I will convene
the comitia for the elections at a later time, but candidates are welcome to
announce themselves and begin campaigning if they wish.

All candidates *must* let me know of their intention to stand for office
directly by sending a message to labienus@... (labienus at texas dot net)
in order to be placed on the ballot. Please include the word "Candidate" in
the subject of the message, and be sure to tell me your full Roman name and the
office you are pursuing.

1 Censor
Must be at least 27 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)
Must already have served at least six months as a consul, praetor, aedilis,
quaestor, tribunus plebis, curator araneae, curator differum, rogator, or
provincial governor

2 Consuls
Must be at least 27 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)
Must already have served at least six months as a consul, praetor, aedilis,
quaestor, tribunus plebis, curator araneae, curator differum, rogator, or
provincial governor

2 Praetors
Must be at least 25 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)
Must already have served at least six months as a consul, praetor, aedilis,
quaestor, tribunus plebis, curator araneae, curator differum, rogator, or
provincial governor

2 Curule Aediles
Must be at least 21 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)

8 Quaestors
Must be at least 21 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)

1 Curator Differum
Must be at least 21 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)

1 Curator Araneae
Must be at least 21 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)

4 Rogators
Must be at least 21 years old as of Kal. Ian. 2757 (January 1st, 2004)

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16302 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Salve bene, Fr. Apulus Caesar

An a New Roman in America, I thank you for your sympathies so thoughtfully expressed. We in turn mourn not only our own, but the losses taken by all of our friends and allies who are helping rebuild Iraq. Let us also not neglect in our thoughts and prayers those from the International Aid agencies who only went there to help, not to fight, as well as the Innocents of the Iraqi citizenry who only wanted a new life of freedom but found only death for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Vale bene
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar <sacro_barese_impero@...>
Sent: Nov 12, 2003 9:11 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: the Eagle 2756

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete Marce et Omnes,<BR>
as italian and Propraetor Italiae, I add my sad thought to the 14 <BR>
(the number is growing) Carabinieri killed  tomorrow in Iraq. This <BR>
is a sad day for all the italians...<BR>
I send the same thought to all the soldiers, americans and others, <BR>
died in this war.<BR>
<BR>
Valete<BR>
Fr. Apulus Caesar<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...> <BR>
wrote:<BR>
> ave Pauline,<BR>
> <BR>
> thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!<BR>
> <BR>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS<BR>
> <BR>
> Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which <BR>
killed 12<BR>
> Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16303 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Munera canceled
Salve!

Sorry to hear it Most Excellent Faustus,
But I am glad to see that you take the Omens seriously!

Vale
Troianus Mercurius

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@...>
Sent: Nov 12, 2003 7:05 AM
To: LISTONA <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Munera canceled

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete,<BR>
<BR>
The Ludi Plebeian Munera is hereby canceled.<BR>
<BR>
I personally testimoned so bad omens when starting to do the calculations than only if I would be a fool I would continue that.<BR>
<BR>
The scribas are ready to receive back the tickets and give you the sestertii.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Valete,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
L. Arminius Faustus<BR>
<BR>
Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,<BR>
<BR>
Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.<BR>
<BR>
Visit my office at <a href="http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html">http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."<BR>
<BR>
Iliad, Homer, book XX<BR>
<BR>
The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
---------------------------------<BR>
Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta agora!<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16304 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Declaration of Candidacy for Tribunus Plebis
Salvete Quirites,

I hereby declare that I am a candidate for
Tribunis Plebis. I am currently 33 years old (34 once
voting starts), a member of the Pleibeian order and I
have been a citizen of Nova Roma since the 15th day of
the ides of April 2756 [April 28, 2003]


Lucius Quintius Constantius



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16305 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: New Member
Join the Gens Galeria. One of the oldest and happiest of the plebian gens. Our materfamilias is fantastic. Our family are the best you could hope to find. Go to our website and check us out. Contact anyone on the list to discuss our family. We would love to hear from you.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

P.S. Of course, I could be considered just a little biased about this gens. Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16306 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Twelve Tables -- Table I, Law V
Law V.

If he who is summoned has either a sponsor or a
defender, let him be dismissed, and his representative
can take his place in court.[1]

[1] From this it will be seen that the office of
defensor, or "defender," of the party sued was one of
the most ancient recognized by Roman jurisprudence.
Its duties were often undertaken without solicitation,
through motives of friendship or compassion, or the
influence of family ties; and, as the defendant's
representative, he occupied the legal position of the
former, including the unqualified assumption of all
his liabilities arising from, or dependent upon the
matter in litigation. � ed.
-------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to try this with modern lawyers. I think
they might pursue different tactics if it was their
hide or money that would be in jeopardy, not just
their clients.


Lucius Quintius Constantius



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16307 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Trajan Justinian. Salve.

It is normal for everyone who participates regularly on this list to taste their own sandal leather from time to time...sometimes all the way up to the hem of their tunica. We may not all get along and some of us want to introduce the business end of a gladius to one another but we are all good Romans here. May the gods keep you and yours in good health and good fortune. Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16308 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
It morphed. If morphed several times. That is normal around these here parts. LOL.

F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16309 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Call For Candidates - Addendum
T Labienus Fortunatus Consul Quiritibus SPD

My ever-helpful quaestor, Cn Octavius Noricus, has noted that I failed to
mention that all candidates for office must be assidui. So, I'll do it now.

Only candidates who have paid taxes for this year will be placed on the ballot.

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16310 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Call For Candidates in the Comitia Plebis Tributa - Addendum
Salvete citizens,

> T Labienus Fortunatus Consul Quiritibus SPD
>
> My ever-helpful quaestor, Cn Octavius Noricus, has noted that I failed to
> mention that all candidates for office must be assidui. So, I'll do it now.
>
> Only candidates who have paid taxes for this year will be placed on the ballot.

Oops, I failed to mention that as well. So I'll do it now as well :-)

Only candidates who have paid their taxes for this year (listed as Assidui in the Album Gentium)
will be placed on the ballot!

Valete,
Diana Moravia
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16311 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Thanks, greetings,
In studying, I meant learning about Nova Roma and the Religio Romana.
It really is like studying but more fun and interesting.
There's a whole new world to learn here and all of the citizens know
more than any teacher I know. I expect to ask some dumb questions
now and then but I don't want to make a total jerk of myself (again,
lol).
See you around the lists.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Merope Zicos <novaroma21@y...>
wrote:
> Salve Trajan Justinian!
>
> I was so excited to see that you are so young and you have joined
this amazing group of people. I am 19 years old (20 in three months)
and aat first I felt uncomfortable in taking part in NR but my great
interest in Linguistics and Languages in general could not keep me
away from the registration page!
> In other words 'Welcome' and I hope you enjoy it here.
>
> What are you studying? You meantioned that briefly in a previous
email.
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Aurelia Iulia Minervina
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16312 From: Centurion M Bianchius Antonius Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Salve Lucius Quintius Constantius,

You paid your taxes so were not contacted because your info is up to date.

MBA

Roger <politicog@...> wrote:
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
>
> The census ended, and the results are beginning to
> flow to the census list. We received the results of 6
> provinces.
>
>
> Vale
> M.Arminius
> Scriba censorialis
>
>
I'm confused. Was the census completed in all Provinces? I do
not recall being contacted for census information for Lacus Magni.

Lucius Quintius Constantius


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16313 From: Caius Minucius Scaevola Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Salvete, omnes -

On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 12:00:48PM -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Trajan Justinian. Salve.
>
> It is normal for everyone who participates regularly on this list to
> taste their own sandal leather from time to time...sometimes all the
> way up to the hem of their tunica. We may not all get along and some
> of us want to introduce the business end of a gladius to one another
> but we are all good Romans here.

LOL! That description should be on the NR site, as a good description
of the Main List.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Difficile est saturam non scribere.
It is hard not to write satire.
-- Juvenalis, "Saturae"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16314 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Munera canceled
Well... Caesar has taught me that... :)

Many thanks to G. Iulius Scaurus: Dearest, you were right, as ever.

L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeian Aedile

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnostic <hermeticagnosis@e...>
wrote:
> Salve!
>
> Sorry to hear it Most Excellent Faustus,
> But I am glad to see that you take the Omens seriously!
>
> Vale
> Troianus Mercurius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@y...>
> Sent: Nov 12, 2003 7:05 AM
> To: LISTONA <nova-roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Munera canceled
>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Salvete,<BR>
> <BR>
> The Ludi Plebeian Munera is hereby canceled.<BR>
> <BR>
> I personally testimoned so bad omens when starting to do the
calculations than only if I would be a fool I would continue that.<BR>
> <BR>
> The scribas are ready to receive back the tickets and give you the
sestertii.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Valete,<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> L. Arminius Faustus<BR>
> <BR>
> Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,<BR>
> <BR>
> Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.<BR>
> <BR>
> Visit my office at <a
href="http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html">http://geoci
ties.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html</a><BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> "I too in words could fight even Immortals..."<BR>
> <BR>
> Iliad, Homer, book XX<BR>
> <BR>
> The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ---------------------------------<BR>
> Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta
agora!<BR>
> <BR>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16315 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Salvete
Thank you Secundus,
I learned the hard way but sometimes, that way, you never forget the
lesson.
I have been noticing more and more that the good Romans are proving
to be the rule as opposed to the exception.
I am very happy to have met you and all the other Good Romans I have
been privelaged to speak with.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Trajan Justinian. Salve.
>
> It is normal for everyone who participates regularly on this list
to taste their own sandal leather from time to time...sometimes all
the way up to the hem of their tunica. We may not all get along and
some of us want to introduce the business end of a gladius to one
another but we are all good Romans here. May the gods keep you and
yours in good health and good fortune. Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16316 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: New Member
Just a LITTLE biased, Secundus?

Let's be honest - you Galeriae are such ENTHUSIASTS that you raise the word "Joyous" to a whole new level!! {grinning!}

Vale
Mercurius Troianus

-----Original Message-----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Sent: Nov 12, 2003 11:55 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New Member

<html><body>


<tt>
Join the Gens Galeria.  One of the oldest and happiest of the plebian gens.  Our materfamilias is fantastic.  Our family are the best you could hope to find.  Go to our website and check us out.  Contact anyone on the list to discuss our family.  We would love to hear from you.<BR>
<BR>
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Of course, I could be considered just a little biased about this gens.  Vale.<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16317 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
LOL, Salve again Secundus (is that the proper name to use for you?
I've seen 2 and 3 names and now understand their reasons but you have
4! The Galeria Gens must be prominant as well as happy, lol.
I see the morphing now and think it best to let it lie as is, lol.
In pax
Justinian



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> It morphed. If morphed several times. That is normal around these
here parts. LOL.
>
> F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16318 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Digest No 910
Lucius Equitius Omnibus SPD

To my Italian friends I offer my sympathy and prayers for the loss of any of
the fine Carabinieri.
I was lucky to have been able to work with some of them while I was in
Sardinia during my time in the Navy. A sad time indeed.

Valete

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:11:06 -0000
From: "Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@...>
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756

Salvete Marce et Omnes,
as italian and Propraetor Italiae, I add my sad thought to the 14
(the number is growing) Carabinieri killed tomorrow in Iraq. This
is a sad day for all the italians...
I send the same thought to all the soldiers, americans and others,
died in this war.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
wrote:
> ave Pauline,
>
> thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
>
> Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which
killed 12
> Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:19:29 -0800 (PST)
From: raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...>
Subject: Re: Re: the Eagle 2756

Thank you, sir. My prayers go out to the families of your lost policemen. I
will light another candle for them tonight.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16319 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
It is not uncommon for a Roman to have a fourth name. In my case it is because of a skip in the family. Grandfather was F. Galerius Aurelianus but my father was not name after him, I was. As such (while he lived) was F. Galerius Aurelianus Primus and I became F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus[-o]. Had my father been named for his father, he would likely have become known as F. Galerius Aurelianus Minor and grandfather would have become known as F. Galerius Aurelianus Maior. If I should chance to have a son this late in life (may the Gods grant it-NOT) and called him after me, he would then be F. Galerius Aurelianus Tertius. All very simple in a Roman sort of way.

F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16320 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Actually, my close family and friends call me Flavi while most just call me Aurelianus while many in NR call me by a number of uncomplimentary and anatomically-impossible designations.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16321 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Salvete omnes,
To all Romani in Italia. I made a quick post earlier in response to the announcement of the Italian deaths in Iraq. I made (As usual ) remarks in haste. I know some citizens have personal feelings about the U.S. and our military involvements. I personally was deployed several times in my youth so I tend to take remarks against the US and our troops personally.
I apologize for my stupid insensitive remark. I did not think at the time that it was bad but in hindsight, it was stupid. I made the comment as in the mind set of a soldier. It turns my stomach to see the news everyday as more young Americans are killed. I have felt for awhile that the United States is always ready and willing to help our 'allies' and the same is not always true when we need the help. The old soldier in me reacted with the loose mouth I am known for. (Insert sandal.)
My fellow citizen Caesar was the better man and soothed me by acknowledging our fallen troops. I thank him for that especially because he did not have to do it.
Another fellow citizen contacted me off list and I was able to vent with him things I have held back for years and worries that I currently have. I thank him as well.
May the Gods bless Nova Roma and her citizens.


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16322 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Salve and some of us are lucky enough to call you Cousin


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] What to call me.


Actually, my close family and friends call me Flavi while most just call me Aurelianus while many in NR call me by a number of uncomplimentary and anatomically-impossible designations.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16323 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: New Member
Salve Mercurius Troianus

How dare you insinuate that a member of my family would be biased about our gens. (VBG)

He stated, as we all have, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

When I stated that he was an expert on the Rel. Romanum and had 20 years experience with it I was telling the truth!!!

When he and I said our mater is the greatest she IS!!!!!!!!!!!!

When he and I suggested you join the best family in Nova Roma were were again telling the truth!!!!!!


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


PS hope to see you at the family reunion next year.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16324 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
Salve and thanks

My sympathy to the families of our Italian allies.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Iulius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 8:22 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: the Eagle 2756


ave Pauline,

thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!

M IVL PERVSIANVS

Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the bomb which killed 12
Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.


------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:00:51 -0500
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
Subject: The Eagle 2756

Salve Romans

Ex animo

As the final touches are being applied to the the November and December
issues and therefore the final ones for 2756, I wanted to take a few moments
to thank the people most responsible for the revival of the Eagle and for
the top quality that we have seen within it's pages this year.

The Staff of the Eagle!!!

They are called Scriba, writers and they are that and more!! They were and
are the glue that held the Eagle together in good times and in bad. No
matter what else was happing or not happing this merry group from around
the world kept their collective ( g-d I hate that word) noses to the mill
stone and kept on writing and drawing and in doing so kept my sprits up
and the Eagle rolling along. I would like to thank them for the hard work
and to tell you all a little more about them. I would like to thank:

Iulia Aenea Apollonia Musa
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Titus Arminius Genialis
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Livia Cornelia Hibernia
Falavi Galerius Aurelanus Secundus
Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
Aurelia Iulia Pulcra
Lucius Iulius Sulla
Marcus Iulius Perusianus
Gaius Lanius Falco
Albertus Minius Abrahaeus Vaticinator
Caius Minius Bellator
Coryphaeus Minius Leo Cambosia
Flavius Minius Clinamens
Pompeius Minius Aquila Palladius
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Gaius Modius Athanasius
Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis
Quintus Sertorius
Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix

for their dedication, work ethic, commitment, intelligence and steadfastness
and to making the Eagle what it has been this year. In the following pages
we introduce you to the staff so that we might get to know them a little
better. I would also like to thank Q. Cassius Calvus, while he is not an
official member of the staff ( by his request ) he is part of the Eagle
family and has produced a great column all year on This month in Roman History,
he has our thanks and appreciation for a job well done.

Thanks are extended as well to those other citizens who have contribute
to the Eagle in the last year:

Lucius Aeneas Apollonius Nauta
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Patricia Cassia
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Lucius Cornelius Lupus
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Q. Fabius Maximus
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
Diana Moravia Aventina
Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus


I would also like to thank my three immediate predecessors as Curator Differum,
Helena Galerius (Hi mom) Senators D. Iunius Palladius and M. Minucius Audens
all three of which have given good, sound advice and counsel over the past
year.

Next I wish to express my sincere thanks to those individuals who gave
us permission to reprint or use something from their Website. The amount
and quality of information on Rome and related subjects is mind boggling.

THANK YOU:
Brad Blair
David Camden
Leo C. Curran
Meredith Drye
Robin Fleming
Irene Hahn
Jona Lendering
Cathrine E. Lowther
Dr. John Porter
Javier Rodriguez
David R. Sears
Stephen Stewart
Mattias V�gberg
Peter White
Hadrian's Wall Education Website
YLE, the Finnish Broadcasting Co.
Worcester Museum of Art

Lastly , I would like to thank our financial patrons for their indispensable
support for the Eagle!

THANK YOU

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola!!!
Marcus Cassius Julianus,
L. Suetonius Nerva,
and those who choose to remain anonymous.

Your generous support and that of our few advertisers has helped produce
a better Eagle than would otherwise been possible.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum 2756
Fortuna Favet Fortibus



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16325 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Salvete Marcvs Flavivs Fides et Omnes,
thank you all for your fine words, thank you from all the sad
italians.

The news coming from Iraq say us that the number of young soldiers
killed is 18. Never from the WWII the Italy lost a so high number of
soldiers in an humanitarian mission.
I only hope this deaths (italian, american, iraq and all the other)
will be useful to have the Pax Romana in the world, in everyplace
and for everybody.

Thank you again.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
> To all Romani in Italia. I made a quick post
earlier in response to the announcement of the Italian deaths in
Iraq. I made (As usual ) remarks in haste. I know some citizens have
personal feelings about the U.S. and our military involvements. I
personally was deployed several times in my youth so I tend to take
remarks against the US and our troops personally.
> I apologize for my stupid insensitive remark. I did not think at
the time that it was bad but in hindsight, it was stupid. I made the
comment as in the mind set of a soldier. It turns my stomach to see
the news everyday as more young Americans are killed. I have felt
for awhile that the United States is always ready and willing to
help our 'allies' and the same is not always true when we need the
help. The old soldier in me reacted with the loose mouth I am known
for. (Insert sandal.)
> My fellow citizen Caesar was the better man and soothed me by
acknowledging our fallen troops. I thank him for that especially
because he did not have to do it.
> Another fellow citizen contacted me off list and I was able to
vent with him things I have held back for years and worries that I
currently have. I thank him as well.
> May the Gods bless Nova Roma and her citizens.
>
>
> S P Q R
>
> Fidelis Ad Mortem.
>
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> Roman Citizen
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16326 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar T-Shirt
Cool, were they members of Nova Roma too or are they your real name?
Me and my father were born here in the US but my mother was born in
Italy and my aunt and cousins still live there but they aren't Roman.
Thanks for the information.
P.S
So the proper name for you would be Aurelianus instead of Secondus;
sill to call you the second, lol, sorry.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> It is not uncommon for a Roman to have a fourth name. In my case
it is because of a skip in the family. Grandfather was F. Galerius
Aurelianus but my father was not name after him, I was. As such
(while he lived) was F. Galerius Aurelianus Primus and I became F.
Galerius Aurelianus Secundus[-o]. Had my father been named for his
father, he would likely have become known as F. Galerius Aurelianus
Minor and grandfather would have become known as F. Galerius
Aurelianus Maior. If I should chance to have a son this late in life
(may the Gods grant it-NOT) and called him after me, he would then be
F. Galerius Aurelianus Tertius. All very simple in a Roman sort of
way.
>
> F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16327 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: What to call me.
LOL, you have a great sense of humor too.
If you don't mind me asking, what is Padruig?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> Actually, my close family and friends call me Flavi while most just
call me Aurelianus while many in NR call me by a number of
uncomplimentary and anatomically-impossible designations.
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16328 From: Neil Lucock Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
On Wednesday 12 Nov 2003 9:39 pm, raymond fuentes wrote:
> I have felt for awhile
> that the United States is always ready and willing to help our 'allies' and
> the same is not always true when we need the help.

Britannia etiam!
Socii PopulusQue Romanus

Valete
Gaius (gens habeo nondum)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16329 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)
Salve

Well said, Marcvs Flavivs.
If my own Reply earlier offended, I apologiize. I too can't stand seeing our boys die over there.
For the Love of the Gods, we free them from a Tyrant, rebuild their neglected infrastructure, and this is the thanks we get?
It's easy to get emotional over the subject - it DESERVES our emotional response. These are OUR people dying!

Vale,
Mercurius Troianus

-----Original Message-----
From: raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...>
Sent: Nov 12, 2003 1:39 PM
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Bad Temper, loose mouth. (An appology)

<html><body>


<tt>
Salvete omnes,<BR>
                  To all Romani in Italia. I made a quick post earlier in response to the announcement of the Italian deaths in Iraq. I made (As usual ) remarks in haste. I know some citizens have personal feelings about the U.S. and our military involvements. I personally was deployed several times in my youth so I tend to take remarks against the US and our troops personally.<BR>
I apologize for my stupid insensitive remark. I did not think at the time that it was bad but in hindsight, it was stupid. I made the comment as in the mind set of a soldier. It turns my stomach to see the news everyday as more young Americans are killed. I have felt for awhile that the United States is always ready and willing to help our 'allies' and the same is not always true when we need the help. The old soldier in me reacted with the loose mouth I am known for. (Insert sandal.)<BR>
My fellow citizen Caesar was the better man and soothed me by acknowledging our fallen troops. I thank him for that especially because he did not have to do it.<BR>
Another fellow citizen contacted me off list and I was able to vent with him things I have held back for years and worries that I currently have. I thank him as well.<BR>
May the Gods bless Nova Roma and her citizens.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
S  P  Q  R<BR>
<BR>
Fidelis Ad Mortem.<BR>
<BR>
Marcvs Flavivs Fides<BR>
Roman Citizen<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
---------------------------------<BR>
Do you Yahoo!?<BR>
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16330 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
A. Apollonius Cordus to Curator Ti. Galerius Paulinus,
Troianus Mercurius, Trajan Justinian and all citizens
and peregrines, greetings.

I hope you're all well; I'm well.

Troianus Mercurius wrote:

> White it is true that both gentlemen were military
> geniuses, and both behaved with exemplary dignitas
> and decorum, in the end their situations are not at
> all parallel - so let's head this off before it
> turns into another "T-Shirt Commentaries," Please!

I quite agree, which is why I clearly flagged my
comments as a tangent. I have no desire to discuss
Rommel, and would be completely out of my depth if I
tried. But surely a polite discussion of Julius Caesar
isn't out of order? :)

Trajan Justinian wrote:

> Would i be correct in thinking that dignitas here
> means place in
> society as opposed to ones morals or ethics?

Well... one of the wonderful things about Latin is
that it has so many words which it takes books and
books to explain adequately. My understanding of the
Roman concept of 'dignitas' is that it meant something
like 'the esteem in which one is held by one's peers,
which is earned by one's services to the nation and
which is measured by one's honores - the public
offices and other rewards one is given by one's peers
in recognition of these services.' There's a
fascinating analysis of this and other Roman concepts,
in relation to Caesar and others, in J. D. Minyard's
'Lucretius and the Late Republic' in Mnemosyne
Supplement 90 (1985). Essentially, Caesar felt that
his services to Rome were not being recognised and the
appropriate honores were not being given.

As for the main substance of the question, Troianus
Mercurius wrote:

> G. Iulius Caesar fought against his own people to
> remove a corrupted Government, after defeating his
> countries' enemies.
...
> While civil wars are horrible, nevertheless I
> believe it is clear that G. Iulius Caesar was
> overall the more Virtuous, which is to say he did a
> better job of Living the Virtues we hold dear. That
> being said, let us please avoid another digression
> into discussing Nazism. In Sum: Nazis are bad,
> Rommel was good, but Caesar was better - let's leave
> it at that and end this thread please!

and Curator Paulinus wrote:

> It seems that a large number of Caesars
> contemporaries lost sight that the "people" where
> half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman
> history the plebians walked out because their need
> and wants were not being considered. The Oligarch's
> never had a plan except their own hold on power.
...
> As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would
> have done, His repeated attempts at compromise fell
> on deaf ears. The only Unconstitutional action
> Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon, was after
> his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on
> him.
>
> How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the
> feet of his opponents?

I'd like to be clear that I'm not interested in
deciding how virtuous Caesar was in general; nor am I
suggesting that he never did Roman any service in his
career. I also wouldn't dream of suggesting that he
was the first to act against the constitution of the
republic; but that's frankly irrelevant, unless you
buy the argument that once one person has broken the
rules it's okay for everyone else to do the same - I
don't.

Yes, the republic was in a mess; yes, many of those
who upheld the constitution were the same people who
were resisting measures to help the lower classes. But
Rome was a state based on popular participation and
the rule of law - in many ways as democratic as modern
liberal democracies. In such states procedures are
provided for peaceful reform based on elections and
legislation without the need for force. And in a state
which can be reformed from within using the existing
system, imperfect though that system may be, there is
in my view no justification for going outside the
system to achieve reform. I live in the UK, and
there's plenty that needs improving here, including
the system by which things get improved; but that
doesn't mean I'd be justified in overthrowing the
legitimate government to make those improvements.

As for Caesar's dignitas, Minyard's article makes the
crucial point: if dignitas is the recognition by
society of one's worth, then it is absurd to make war
on that society on behalf of one's dignitas. What can
one hope to do - force people at the point of a sword
to recognise one's worth? What sort of recognition is
that? Achilles was in the same situation, and may be
criticised for his sulky behaviour and his excessively
cruel revenge on his enemy, but it is significant that
he never even contemplated attacking the Greeks. It
would have been both inexcusable and absurd; and it
was both inexcusable and absurd when Sulla did it,
when Marius did it, when Caesar did it, and when
Octavian did it.

The use of force to reform an autocratic or
authoritarian state may be justifiable; I do not see
how the use of force to reform a democratic state can
ever be justified.

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16331 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Census?
Salve;

That is because you are listed as Assidui. All those who were listed as assidui were already accounted for, and additional information was not required.

Vale;

G. Modius Athanasius
Procurator (Senior Legate) Lacus Magni

In a message dated 11/12/2003 10:46:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, politicog@... writes:

> I'm confused. Was the census completed in all Provinces? I do
> not recall being contacted for census information for Lacus
> Magni.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16332 From: Livia Cornelia Hibernia Date: 2003-11-12
Subject: Re: The Eagle 2756
Ave Tiberius!

It has been an honor and privilege to work with you on the Eagle this
past year.

Vale,

Livia Cornelia Hibernia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Romans
>
> Ex animo
>
> As the final touches are being applied to the the November and
December issues and therefore the final ones for 2756, I wanted to
take a few moments to thank the people most responsible for the
revival of the Eagle and for the top quality that we have seen within
it's pages this year.
>
> The Staff of the Eagle!!!
>
> They are called Scriba, writers and they are that and more!! They
were and are the glue that held the Eagle together in good times and
in bad. No matter what else was happing or not happing this merry
group from around the world kept their collective ( g-d I hate that
word) noses to the mill stone and kept on writing and drawing and in
doing so kept my sprits up and the Eagle rolling along. I would like
to thank them for the hard work and to tell you all a little more
about them. I would like to thank:
>
> Iulia Aenea Apollonia Musa
> Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
> Titus Arminius Genialis
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
> Livia Cornelia Hibernia
> Falavi Galerius Aurelanus Secundus
> Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
> Aurelia Iulia Pulcra
> Lucius Iulius Sulla
> Marcus Iulius Perusianus
> Gaius Lanius Falco
> Albertus Minius Abrahaeus Vaticinator
> Caius Minius Bellator
> Coryphaeus Minius Leo Cambosia
> Flavius Minius Clinamens
> Pompeius Minius Aquila Palladius
> Gallus Minucius Iovinus
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis
> Quintus Sertorius
> Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix
>
> for their dedication, work ethic, commitment, intelligence and
steadfastness and to making the Eagle what it has been this year. In
the following pages we introduce you to the staff so that we might
get to know them a little better. I would also like to thank Q.
Cassius Calvus, while he is not an official member of the staff (
by his request ) he is part of the Eagle family and has produced a
great column all year on This month in Roman History, he has our
thanks and appreciation for a job well done.
>
> Thanks are extended as well to those other citizens who have
contribute to the Eagle in the last year:
>
> Lucius Aeneas Apollonius Nauta
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Patricia Cassia
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> Lucius Cornelius Lupus
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Q. Fabius Maximus
> Titus Labienus Fortunatus
> Diana Moravia Aventina
> Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
>
>
> I would also like to thank my three immediate predecessors as
Curator Differum, Helena Galerius (Hi mom) Senators D. Iunius
Palladius and M. Minucius Audens all three of which have given good,
sound advice and counsel over the past year.
>
> Next I wish to express my sincere thanks to those individuals who
gave us permission to reprint or use something from their Website.
The amount and quality of information on Rome and related subjects is
mind boggling.
>
> THANK YOU:
> Brad Blair
> David Camden
> Leo C. Curran
> Meredith Drye
> Robin Fleming
> Irene Hahn
> Jona Lendering
> Cathrine E. Lowther
> Dr. John Porter
> Javier Rodriguez
> David R. Sears
> Stephen Stewart
> Mattias VÃ¥gberg
> Peter White
> Hadrian's Wall Education Website
> YLE, the Finnish Broadcasting Co.
> Worcester Museum of Art
>
> Lastly , I would like to thank our financial patrons for their
indispensable support for the Eagle!
>
> THANK YOU
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola!!!
> Marcus Cassius Julianus,
> L. Suetonius Nerva,
> and those who choose to remain anonymous.
>
> Your generous support and that of our few advertisers has helped
produce a better Eagle than would otherwise been possible.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Curator Differum 2756
> Fortuna Favet Fortibus
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16333 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Salve A. Apollonius Cordus who said

"I also wouldn't dream of suggesting that he was the first to act against the constitution of the
republic; but that's frankly irrelevant, unless you buy the argument that once one person has broken the
rules it's okay for everyone else to do the same - I don't.'

You can not be the only one to obey the rules especially when nobody else is . It a quick way to get yourself killed, something Caesar would never allow. Rome was far less democratic than you suggest and had been trailing down a slippery slope for sometime.

You also say

"Yes, the republic was in a mess; yes, many of those who upheld the constitution were the same people who
were resisting measures to help the lower classes."

The Oligarch's were not upholding the constitution they were hanging on to absolute control of the Roman Republic come hell or high water. Their view seems to have been we are in charge or nobody is.


You further state that

"The use of force to reform an autocratic or authoritarian state may be justifiable; I do not see how the use of force to reform a democratic state can ever be justified."

In July 1776 the Americans compromised on the issue of slavery in order to get a unanimous vote for independence from Great Britain. They compromised again with the constitutional convention and the 3/5th compromise to establish the national government. They again compromised in 1820 and 1850 again over slavery The American system fell down between 1861 and 1865 because their was nothing left to compromise.

Force was necessary and justified to compel one part of the democratic USA to comply with the laws of the democratically elected national government.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)


A. Apollonius Cordus to Curator Ti. Galerius Paulinus,
Troianus Mercurius, Trajan Justinian and all citizens
and peregrines, greetings.

I hope you're all well; I'm well.

Troianus Mercurius wrote:

> White it is true that both gentlemen were military
> geniuses, and both behaved with exemplary dignitas
> and decorum, in the end their situations are not at
> all parallel - so let's head this off before it
> turns into another "T-Shirt Commentaries," Please!

I quite agree, which is why I clearly flagged my
comments as a tangent. I have no desire to discuss
Rommel, and would be completely out of my depth if I
tried. But surely a polite discussion of Julius Caesar
isn't out of order? :)

Trajan Justinian wrote:

> Would i be correct in thinking that dignitas here
> means place in
> society as opposed to ones morals or ethics?

Well... one of the wonderful things about Latin is
that it has so many words which it takes books and
books to explain adequately. My understanding of the
Roman concept of 'dignitas' is that it meant something
like 'the esteem in which one is held by one's peers,
which is earned by one's services to the nation and
which is measured by one's honores - the public
offices and other rewards one is given by one's peers
in recognition of these services.' There's a
fascinating analysis of this and other Roman concepts,
in relation to Caesar and others, in J. D. Minyard's
'Lucretius and the Late Republic' in Mnemosyne
Supplement 90 (1985). Essentially, Caesar felt that
his services to Rome were not being recognised and the
appropriate honores were not being given.

As for the main substance of the question, Troianus
Mercurius wrote:

> G. Iulius Caesar fought against his own people to
> remove a corrupted Government, after defeating his
> countries' enemies.
...
> While civil wars are horrible, nevertheless I
> believe it is clear that G. Iulius Caesar was
> overall the more Virtuous, which is to say he did a
> better job of Living the Virtues we hold dear. That
> being said, let us please avoid another digression
> into discussing Nazism. In Sum: Nazis are bad,
> Rommel was good, but Caesar was better - let's leave
> it at that and end this thread please!

and Curator Paulinus wrote:

> It seems that a large number of Caesars
> contemporaries lost sight that the "people" where
> half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman
> history the plebians walked out because their need
> and wants were not being considered. The Oligarch's
> never had a plan except their own hold on power.
...
> As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would
> have done, His repeated attempts at compromise fell
> on deaf ears. The only Unconstitutional action
> Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon, was after
> his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on
> him.
>
> How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the
> feet of his opponents?

I'd like to be clear that I'm not interested in
deciding how virtuous Caesar was in general; nor am I
suggesting that he never did Roman any service in his
career. I also wouldn't dream of suggesting that he
was the first to act against the constitution of the
republic; but that's frankly irrelevant, unless you
buy the argument that once one person has broken the
rules it's okay for everyone else to do the same - I
don't.

Yes, the republic was in a mess; yes, many of those
who upheld the constitution were the same people who
were resisting measures to help the lower classes. But
Rome was a state based on popular participation and
the rule of law - in many ways as democratic as modern
liberal democracies. In such states procedures are
provided for peaceful reform based on elections and
legislation without the need for force. And in a state
which can be reformed from within using the existing
system, imperfect though that system may be, there is
in my view no justification for going outside the
system to achieve reform. I live in the UK, and
there's plenty that needs improving here, including
the system by which things get improved; but that
doesn't mean I'd be justified in overthrowing the
legitimate government to make those improvements.

As for Caesar's dignitas, Minyard's article makes the
crucial point: if dignitas is the recognition by
society of one's worth, then it is absurd to make war
on that society on behalf of one's dignitas. What can
one hope to do - force people at the point of a sword
to recognise one's worth? What sort of recognition is
that? Achilles was in the same situation, and may be
criticised for his sulky behaviour and his excessively
cruel revenge on his enemy, but it is significant that
he never even contemplated attacking the Greeks. It
would have been both inexcusable and absurd; and it
was both inexcusable and absurd when Sulla did it,
when Marius did it, when Caesar did it, and when
Octavian did it.

The use of force to reform an autocratic or
authoritarian state may be justifiable; I do not see
how the use of force to reform a democratic state can
ever be justified.

________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16334 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: New Member
Salve Tiberius!
Salvete bene Gens Galeriae magnificentiae!

I am unjustly maligned!
Tiberius, your own Cousin Flavi said he was biased - I merely agreed!
How could I not? All know the Galeriae speak only Truth! You said so yourself!!
Have I denied your Cousin Flavi's Expertise in any way? Never! He and I have corresponded and he is above reproach!

Have ever I denied that your Materfamillias is Great in every way? No, Never!! Nor would I ever say such a thing! Mater Helena and I have written each other privately several times, share much in common, and I hold her in the highest regard and proudly say thusly to one and all, here and now, before witnesses that I hold her in the highest esteem!!
How dare you suggest otherwise! Mater Helena, please correct your kinsman Tiberius, who is my friend but is ignorant of our correspondence or he would never have written such words! (Since I have agreed Galerians never lie, clearly these incorrect words came forth out of Ignorance!)

Indeed Tiberius, in case you did not know - lest you write again in Ignorance! - last week when a young person erred on our site and was being beset on all sides, your Mater Helena and Priestess Arnamentia were my stauchest allies in defending him! Your Mater Helena not only helped me defend him on the Main List, she also wrote privately to the young man to gently correct him and encourage him, and wrote to his detractors asking that they please be patient with him: Thanks in large measure to your Most Excellent Mater Helena, he is still with us, he is enthusiastic, he is learning at a fantastic pace, asking intelligent questions and Posting very good research! Without your Mater, we would have lost this fine young man (who will be needing a Gens in April!), because I could not have defended him alone!! Mater Helena can vouchsafe my words, friend Tiberius! So don't you ever EVER imply that I have in any way maligned or spoken ill of Gens Galeria and its Materfamillias Helena!! I never have spoken any word against your Gens or your Mater! I said that you are Enthusiastic, which you are and deservedly so!

Vale
Mercurius Troianus

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>
Sent: Nov 12, 2003 6:13 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New Member

<html><body>


<tt>
Salve  Mercurius Troianus<BR>
<BR>
How dare you insinuate that a member of my family would be biased about our gens. (VBG)<BR>
<BR>
He stated,  as we all have,  the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. <BR>
<BR>
When I stated that he was an expert on the Rel. Romanum  and had 20 years experience with it I was telling the truth!!! <BR>
<BR>
When he and I said our mater is the greatest she IS!!!!!!!!!!!!  <BR>
<BR>
When he and  I suggested  you  join the best family in Nova Roma were were again telling the truth!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Vale<BR>
<BR>
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
PS hope to see you at the family reunion next year.<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16335 From: Marcus Iulius Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
ave,

>My fellow american soldiers are killed everyday. In the immortal words
of Bruce Willis >in the 'Die Hard ' movies. "Welcome to the party, pal."
>As a policeman myself, I feel thier loss because no matter the nation,
we are all >basically doing the same job. But I have one question, you do
not have to answer it.
>Do you mourn our forces as well?

As I don't want to start an off-topic thread I'm going to answer you privately.
;-)

vale
M IVL PERVSIANVS

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:40:19 -0800 (PST)
From: raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...>
Subject: Re: Re: the Eagle 2756

My fellow american soldiers are killed everyday. In the immortal words of
Bruce Willis in the 'Die Hard ' movies. "Welcome to the party, pal."
As a policeman myself, I feel thier loss because no matter the nation, we
are all basically doing the same job. But I have one question, you do not
have to answer it.
Do you mourn our forces as well?

Marcus Iulius <m_iulius@...> wrote:
ave Pauline,

thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!

M IVL PERVSIANVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16336 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Anglo-American Project in Pompeii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Anglo-American Project in Pompeii":

http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/field_proj/anampomp/index.html

This site, maintained by the Univ. of Bradford, is part advertisement
for their archaeological field school at Pompeii and part report on
the excavation and restoration activities of the project -- all told,
a delightful site.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16337 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Call For Candidates
Salve T Labienus,

> All candidates *must* let me know of their intention to stand for office
> directly by sending a message to labienus@... (labienus at texas dot net)
> in order to be placed on the ballot. Please include the word "Candidate" in
> the subject of the message, and be sure to tell me your full Roman name and the
> office you are pursuing.

Just wondering: So the candidates don't announce their candidacy here on the Manlist but email you
privately instead? When the candidates email you do they just say 'I am running' or do they send
you their candidacy speech?
How can we know who is running then?I only ask because election time is always a fun and exciting
time in NR but if we don't see the candidacy's here on the ML, there won't be any discussions.

Vale!
Diana Moravia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16338 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Candidacy for Tribunus Plebis
Gaius Modius Athanasius Comitia Plebis Tributa SPD

Again I present myself as a candidate for the office of Tribunus Plebis.
Again I offer my dedication to our Republic in the form of service. For those
who do not know me well let me introduce myself. I am Gaius Modius Athanasius,
Paterfamilias of Gens Modia, Senior Legate of Lacus Magni Province, and Flamen
Pomonalis. I have been a citizen of Nova Roma since May 26, 2002, and I have
maintained consistently active behavior within Nova Roma since I became a
citizen.

Outside of our esteemed Micronation I am a husband, a father, and I work in
the hazard insurance industry. I previously worked in sales within the
advertising industry, but thanks to corporate downsizing and relocation I have
changed industries -- which turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I am a veteran
of the US Armed Forces, having served in the US Navy from 1988 until 1993.

I have always been a man dedicated to service, and to working with others for
a common goal and vision. When looking at a candidate there are several
things you should consider. Why should you support the candidate? What can you
expect from the candidate? And finally, Why is the candidate involved in the
Republic?

Why should you support my candidacy for Tribunus Plebis?
* I shall work together with the other Tribunes for the good of Nova Roma,
and not my own -- or another's -- agenda.
* I shall work with the magistrates of Nova Roma for the good of the
Republic, and not one particular faction.
* I shall listen to the people in which I serve, and protect their interests
and the integrity of our Constitution.

What you can expect from me is:
* Diligence I will fulfill the duties and responsibilities of Tribunus
Plebis with enthusiasm on the first day of office until the last. You have my
commitment that I will remained focused during my term of office.
* Commitment. I have experienced frustration within Nova Roma in the past,
yet I remain committed. You can expect, if I am Tribunus Plebis that I shall
remain as such even when times become frustrating and stressful. I will
fulfill the term of office -- you have my word on that.
* Honor. I understand the office of Tribunus Plebis, and you can expect
that I will execute the duties of the office with honor and dignity. I shall
endeavor to ensure that the office of Tribunus Plebis functions for the
betterment of the people of Nova Roma and not for petty political differences and the
myriad factions within our Republic.
* Communication. If someone contacts me I will respond, plain and simple.
I will not make a person wait months without a response, and I shall do my
best to maintain a 24 hour turn around time to any communication sent to me.

Why am I a citizen of Nova Roma?
I am a citizen of Nova Roma for two reasons. The first is the Religio
Romana. My belief in the Gods is something I hold most dear, and it is this belief
that molds me into who I am. My second motivation for being a citizen is the
vision of creating a new Roman community, not simply a cyber-club or an SCA
imitation. What we do now will set the stage for tomorrow, and there is a lot
we can do now.

These are the reasons why I ask for you to support me as Tribunus Plebis. I
ask for your support, and in return I offer to serve the People and the
Republic with dilligece, commitment, and honor.

Valete:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16339 From: Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Non Candidacy Announcement
Salvete omnes,

It is with great sadness that I have to admit the truth : I am an
idiot ! I was under the impression that one could run for office for
a given year if one paid his/her taxed for that given year (ie you
run for 2004, pay your taxes in 2004).
It seems I have not understood properly and since I did not pay my
taxes for 2003 (so I am not an assidui today) I cannot run for office
next year although I intended to pay taxes in 2004...

I therefore announce that I cannot run for Quaestor as I originally
planned and as I previously told some of my friends.

I am going to kick myself now...

Optime valete

Corn Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16340 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Salve dear brother Laureatus Moravius,

> It seems I have not understood properly and since I did not pay my
> taxes for 2003 (so I am not an assidui today) I cannot run for office
> next year although I intended to pay taxes in 2004...

If you pay now I think that you can run.

I do find it a shame that those who are willing to work for Nova Roma (for free!) are 'rewarded'
with the fact that they *must* pay in order to have that honor.

Vale,
your sis'
Diana Moravia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16341 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Actually, this is just a fictional account of my name, Traian Iustinian. NR has only been around for a few years. I chose to be of the Galeria because of the materfamilias allowing me to be a member and because I liked the gens deities. Flavius is a common Roman name but it is also the name of one of my favorite Imperial families. Aurelianus is also personal favorite of mine. So Flavius is my personal name for use by very close friends and family. Galerius is my gens name and Aurelianus is much like a sept name for the gens. Much like a person could be Franklin Bright of the Clan McDowell. Aurelianus would be my commonly used name much like the English will refer to their acquaintances by surname but only very close friends would refer to them by first name.
If you hear someone calling me Flavius or Flavi, it would mean that they hold me in close affection. However, if someone were to refer to me simply as Galerius Aurelianus or Aurelianus, it would indicate a more formal relationship. Of course, my Galeri relatives usually refer to me as 'cousin.'

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16342 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: What to call me.
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Traian Iustinian. Salve.

Padruig is one of the Gaelic versions of Patrick. My legal name is Patrick Dennis Owen. Padruig the Uncle or more formally speaking, The Honorable Lord Padruig Aoghann na Uladh, called the Uncle, {CBM, CDN, CGI}, is my name and titles in the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc., Kingdom of Meridies. I am also know as Company Quartermaster Sgt. Patrick Owen, Co. B, 9th KY US Vol. Infantry in the ACW reenactment world. So like Strider, "I have many names." Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16343 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
> > It seems I have not understood properly and since I did not pay my
> > taxes for 2003 (so I am not an assidui today) I cannot run for office
> > next year although I intended to pay taxes in 2004...
>
> If you pay now I think that you can run.

Unfortunately, it's too late. The payment office is closed for the
year by Senatus Consultum:

I. Citizens who pay after March 30th must pay an additional 50% of
the base amount as a late payment penalty. Citizens paying this
amount (base plus penalty) shall be considered Assidui, with the
same status as those who paid before the deadline.

II. Reclassification of Capite Censi citizens as Assidui due to
the late payment method described above may not take place between
November 1st and January 1st.

III. Any citizen whose check was returned as unpayable by a bank,
for insufficient funds or other reasons, may regain Assidui status
by paying the original amount plus all bank fees associated with the
returned check.

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2002-06-01-results.html

The middle paragraph was designed to prevent a large influx of
newly-registered voters suddenly appearing in the days before an
election. (I live in Chicago; that sort of thing is well known here).

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16344 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: New Member
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to his cousin, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus.

Yea, verily, good cousin. We should encourage both Mercurius and Iustinian to commit to our worthy gens since they have both recognized the truth. That is Gens Galeria live by the the ideals of service, piety, happiness, dignity, tomfoolery, and (possible) insobriety. Let us invite them to come into the family fold by petition to our materfamilias, pray at the ancestral altars, give good service to the family and Republic, and get totally stinking cranked on some of the fine Falnerian wine from my province. May the gods grant you good health, good fortune, and conviviality. Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16345 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Tribunus Plebis
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.F.D.

I support the candidacy of Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribunus Plebis. He is an honorable man who I have been proud to recognize as a good citizen of the Republic and with whom I have both agreed and disagreed with (rather strongly at times) in the Public Forum many times. Should his candidacy be acceptable to the Republic, I encourage you to vote for this citizen in the upcoming election. May the gods grant that all of our candidates should be as worthy as this citizen. Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16346 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the noble Diana Moravia Aventina. Salve.

Dear Lady, it is the historical nature of the Republic that those who would lead must support the state with their own resources and gain nothing but dignitas and renown for the blood, sweat, toil, tears, and lucre. Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16347 From: F.QVI.ALBANVS Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Digest No 910
Salvete omnes.
Thank you from all of us Luci, (I think I can say it,
and sorry Propraetor Caesar for taking your place),
from all the NovaRoma italian citizens.
Valete bene.
F.QVI.ALBANUS

--- Lucius Equitius <vergil96@...> escribió:
---------------------------------
Lucius Equitius Omnibus SPD

To my Italian friends I offer my sympathy and prayers
for the loss of any of
the fine Carabinieri.
I was lucky to have been able to work with some of
them while I was in
Sardinia during my time in the Navy. A sad time
indeed.

Valete

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:11:06 -0000
From: "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@...>
Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756

Salvete Marce et Omnes,
as italian and Propraetor Italiae, I add my sad
thought to the 14
(the number is growing) Carabinieri killed tomorrow
in Iraq. This
is a sad day for all the italians...
I send the same thought to all the soldiers, americans
and others,
died in this war.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius "
<m_iulius@v...>
wrote:
> ave Pauline,
>
> thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
>
> Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the
bomb which
killed 12
> Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:19:29 -0800 (PST)
From: raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...>
Subject: Re: Re: the Eagle 2756

Thank you, sir. My prayers go out to the families of
your lost policemen. I
will light another candle for them tonight.




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16348 From: Franto Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Roman Empire web based game
Salve Romans,

I'm working on web online game from Ancient Rome..
I'm in starting phase, but I have some demo from Rome City Editor in flash...

so If you want, just check this link :) http://rome.franto.com/rome.html
Please be patient, there is no preloading done yet..so wait a while

Please feel free to send me some response :)
Building graphics are from game Caesar III from Sierra, except Temple and Gate, I've made it in 3D Studio Max

Ave
Tiberius Marcius Pannonicus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16349 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Call For Candidates - ATTN CANDIDATES
Salvete Diana Moravia omnesque

It seems there's some confusion regarding my call for candidates. My apologies
for being less than clear.

> Just wondering: So the candidates don't announce their candidacy here on the
> Manlist but email you privately instead?

Candidates are certainly welcome to announce themselves wherever and whenever
they like. However, they won't be assured of appearing on the ballot unless
they send a private message to me as well. This is mostly to ensure that I
won't miss someone's statement to the main list.

> When the candidates email you do they just say 'I am running' or do
> they send you their candidacy speech?

All I need is the candidate's full Roman name and the office he or she is
running for.

> How can we know who is running then? I only ask because election time is
> always a fun and exciting time in NR but if we don't see the candidacy's
> here on the ML, there won't be any discussions.

Just to be certain that everyone's clear on this: please feel free to post your
candidacy and any speeches you like to the main list or any other public
forum. Just be sure to send a note about your intention to run directly to me
as well.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16350 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Roman Empire web based game
Salve Pannonicus,
again congratulations for your job, it's very fine. Do you think to
improve it with more features?

I contacted you privately some weeks ago but I didn't received
answer. Can you help me to develop another web game?
Please contact me at fraelov@... [fraelov @ yahoo.it] when you
read this message..

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franto" <franto@f...> wrote:
> Salve Romans,
>
> I'm working on web online game from Ancient Rome..
> I'm in starting phase, but I have some demo from Rome City Editor
in flash...
>
> so If you want, just check this link :)
http://rome.franto.com/rome.html
> Please be patient, there is no preloading done yet..so wait a while
>
> Please feel free to send me some response :)
> Building graphics are from game Caesar III from Sierra, except
Temple and Gate, I've made it in 3D Studio Max
>
> Ave
> Tiberius Marcius Pannonicus
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16351 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Digest No 910
Salve Albanus,
Amice, don't worry, you're not taking my place and everybody must to
feel free to exprime the actual feelings of us italians.

Vale bene, Amice
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Propraetor Italiae

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "F.QVI.ALBANVS" <aamerid@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete omnes.
> Thank you from all of us Luci, (I think I can say it,
> and sorry Propraetor Caesar for taking your place),
> from all the NovaRoma italian citizens.
> Valete bene.
> F.QVI.ALBANUS
>
> --- Lucius Equitius <vergil96@c...> escribió:
> ---------------------------------
> Lucius Equitius Omnibus SPD
>
> To my Italian friends I offer my sympathy and prayers
> for the loss of any of
> the fine Carabinieri.
> I was lucky to have been able to work with some of
> them while I was in
> Sardinia during my time in the Navy. A sad time
> indeed.
>
> Valete
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:11:06 -0000
> From: "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
> <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
> Subject: Re: the Eagle 2756
>
> Salvete Marce et Omnes,
> as italian and Propraetor Italiae, I add my sad
> thought to the 14
> (the number is growing) Carabinieri killed tomorrow
> in Iraq. This
> is a sad day for all the italians...
> I send the same thought to all the soldiers, americans
> and others,
> died in this war.
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius "
> <m_iulius@v...>
> wrote:
> > ave Pauline,
> >
> > thank you to you, it's been a honor to work for you!
> >
> > M IVL PERVSIANVS
> >
> > Post Scriptum: at the moment I'm quite sad for the
> bomb which
> killed 12
> > Italian Carabinieri in Iraq.
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:19:29 -0800 (PST)
> From: raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@y...>
> Subject: Re: Re: the Eagle 2756
>
> Thank you, sir. My prayers go out to the families of
> your lost policemen. I
> will light another candle for them tonight.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS
> Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más...
> http://messenger.yahoo.es
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16352 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: What to call me.
Way cool!
Really! That is a great telling; Bill Shakespear may not have had it
totally right when he said a rose by anyother name . . .
It's the various petals that make up the rose, lol.
A great big thank you for the entertaining telling.
Vale Justinian

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Traian Iustinian. Salve.
>
> Padruig is one of the Gaelic versions of Patrick. My legal name is
Patrick Dennis Owen. Padruig the Uncle or more formally speaking,
The Honorable Lord Padruig Aoghann na Uladh, called the Uncle, {CBM,
CDN, CGI}, is my name and titles in the Society for Creative
Anachronism, Inc., Kingdom of Meridies. I am also know as Company
Quartermaster Sgt. Patrick Owen, Co. B, 9th KY US Vol. Infantry in
the ACW reenactment world. So like Strider, "I have many names."
Vale.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16353 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Thank you Aurelianus.
I understand now.
Wasn't one of the Flavii who was responsible for the coliseum?
I know it was called the Flavian amphitheatre and supposedly was
changed because of the very large (colosus) statues outside or
something like that.
Vale



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> Actually, this is just a fictional account of my name, Traian
Iustinian. NR has only been around for a few years. I chose to be
of the Galeria because of the materfamilias allowing me to be a
member and because I liked the gens deities. Flavius is a common
Roman name but it is also the name of one of my favorite Imperial
families. Aurelianus is also personal favorite of mine. So Flavius
is my personal name for use by very close friends and family.
Galerius is my gens name and Aurelianus is much like a sept name for
the gens. Much like a person could be Franklin Bright of the Clan
McDowell. Aurelianus would be my commonly used name much like the
English will refer to their acquaintances by surname but only very
close friends would refer to them by first name.
> If you hear someone calling me Flavius or Flavi, it would mean that
they hold me in close affection. However, if someone were to refer
to me simply as Galerius Aurelianus or Aurelianus, it would indicate
a more formal relationship. Of course, my Galeri relatives usually
refer to me as 'cousin.'
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16354 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Thanks for your reply, it is more a sense of being than an easy
definition (Dignitas), and i will not go into Rommel or make this
topic something that it should not be, I agree.

As to force, there is a time and a place for it:
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is
generally employed only by small children and large nations. David
Friedman

"The only proper purpose of government is to protect man's rights,
which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper
government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man's self
defense, and, as such, may resort to force only against those who
start the use of force. The only proper functions of government are:
to protect you from criminals; the military, to protect you from
foreign invaders; and, the courts, to protect your property and
contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by
rational rules, according to objective law." - 'Atlas Shrugged', by
renowned philosopher Ayn Rand, 1957.

I'm not up on my Ceasar so I will defer to your thoughts untill I can
form an oppinion but it seems correct to me now.
Vale Justinian

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Curator Ti. Galerius Paulinus,
> Troianus Mercurius, Trajan Justinian and all citizens
> and peregrines, greetings.
>
> I hope you're all well; I'm well.
>
> Troianus Mercurius wrote:
>
> > White it is true that both gentlemen were military
> > geniuses, and both behaved with exemplary dignitas
> > and decorum, in the end their situations are not at
> > all parallel - so let's head this off before it
> > turns into another "T-Shirt Commentaries," Please!
>
> I quite agree, which is why I clearly flagged my
> comments as a tangent. I have no desire to discuss
> Rommel, and would be completely out of my depth if I
> tried. But surely a polite discussion of Julius Caesar
> isn't out of order? :)
>
> Trajan Justinian wrote:
>
> > Would i be correct in thinking that dignitas here
> > means place in
> > society as opposed to ones morals or ethics?
>
> Well... one of the wonderful things about Latin is
> that it has so many words which it takes books and
> books to explain adequately. My understanding of the
> Roman concept of 'dignitas' is that it meant something
> like 'the esteem in which one is held by one's peers,
> which is earned by one's services to the nation and
> which is measured by one's honores - the public
> offices and other rewards one is given by one's peers
> in recognition of these services.' There's a
> fascinating analysis of this and other Roman concepts,
> in relation to Caesar and others, in J. D. Minyard's
> 'Lucretius and the Late Republic' in Mnemosyne
> Supplement 90 (1985). Essentially, Caesar felt that
> his services to Rome were not being recognised and the
> appropriate honores were not being given.
>
> As for the main substance of the question, Troianus
> Mercurius wrote:
>
> > G. Iulius Caesar fought against his own people to
> > remove a corrupted Government, after defeating his
> > countries' enemies.
> ...
> > While civil wars are horrible, nevertheless I
> > believe it is clear that G. Iulius Caesar was
> > overall the more Virtuous, which is to say he did a
> > better job of Living the Virtues we hold dear. That
> > being said, let us please avoid another digression
> > into discussing Nazism. In Sum: Nazis are bad,
> > Rommel was good, but Caesar was better - let's leave
> > it at that and end this thread please!
>
> and Curator Paulinus wrote:
>
> > It seems that a large number of Caesars
> > contemporaries lost sight that the "people" where
> > half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman
> > history the plebians walked out because their need
> > and wants were not being considered. The Oligarch's
> > never had a plan except their own hold on power.
> ...
> > As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would
> > have done, His repeated attempts at compromise fell
> > on deaf ears. The only Unconstitutional action
> > Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon, was after
> > his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on
> > him.
> >
> > How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the
> > feet of his opponents?
>
> I'd like to be clear that I'm not interested in
> deciding how virtuous Caesar was in general; nor am I
> suggesting that he never did Roman any service in his
> career. I also wouldn't dream of suggesting that he
> was the first to act against the constitution of the
> republic; but that's frankly irrelevant, unless you
> buy the argument that once one person has broken the
> rules it's okay for everyone else to do the same - I
> don't.
>
> Yes, the republic was in a mess; yes, many of those
> who upheld the constitution were the same people who
> were resisting measures to help the lower classes. But
> Rome was a state based on popular participation and
> the rule of law - in many ways as democratic as modern
> liberal democracies. In such states procedures are
> provided for peaceful reform based on elections and
> legislation without the need for force. And in a state
> which can be reformed from within using the existing
> system, imperfect though that system may be, there is
> in my view no justification for going outside the
> system to achieve reform. I live in the UK, and
> there's plenty that needs improving here, including
> the system by which things get improved; but that
> doesn't mean I'd be justified in overthrowing the
> legitimate government to make those improvements.
>
> As for Caesar's dignitas, Minyard's article makes the
> crucial point: if dignitas is the recognition by
> society of one's worth, then it is absurd to make war
> on that society on behalf of one's dignitas. What can
> one hope to do - force people at the point of a sword
> to recognise one's worth? What sort of recognition is
> that? Achilles was in the same situation, and may be
> criticised for his sulky behaviour and his excessively
> cruel revenge on his enemy, but it is significant that
> he never even contemplated attacking the Greeks. It
> would have been both inexcusable and absurd; and it
> was both inexcusable and absurd when Sulla did it,
> when Marius did it, when Caesar did it, and when
> Octavian did it.
>
> The use of force to reform an autocratic or
> authoritarian state may be justifiable; I do not see
> how the use of force to reform a democratic state can
> ever be justified.
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!
> Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16355 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
Salve Paulinas,
Like when Nixon said nobody is above the law? He may not be the best
example or maybe he is? But the end result here is that officials
still have to operate within the laws that govern the people or they
are meaningless and even if one does break them, it isn't Ok for
others to do the same. The one that breaks needs to suffer the
consequences of their actions and be punished according to those laws
as an example or a precedent is set for perpetuating the wrong
behavior.
My thesauras is really getting a workout lately.
Vale Justinian



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve A. Apollonius Cordus who said
>
> "I also wouldn't dream of suggesting that he was the first to act
against the constitution of the
> republic; but that's frankly irrelevant, unless you buy the
argument that once one person has broken the
> rules it's okay for everyone else to do the same - I don't.'
>
> You can not be the only one to obey the rules especially when
nobody else is . It a quick way to get yourself killed, something
Caesar would never allow. Rome was far less democratic than you
suggest and had been trailing down a slippery slope for sometime.
>
> You also say
>
> "Yes, the republic was in a mess; yes, many of those who upheld the
constitution were the same people who
> were resisting measures to help the lower classes."
>
> The Oligarch's were not upholding the constitution they were
hanging on to absolute control of the Roman Republic come hell or
high water. Their view seems to have been we are in charge or nobody
is.
>
>
> You further state that
>
> "The use of force to reform an autocratic or authoritarian state
may be justifiable; I do not see how the use of force to reform a
democratic state can ever be justified."
>
> In July 1776 the Americans compromised on the issue of slavery in
order to get a unanimous vote for independence from Great Britain.
They compromised again with the constitutional convention and the
3/5th compromise to establish the national government. They again
compromised in 1820 and 1850 again over slavery The American system
fell down between 1861 and 1865 because their was nothing left to
compromise.
>
> Force was necessary and justified to compel one part of the
democratic USA to comply with the laws of the democratically elected
national government.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: A. Apollonius Cordus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius
Caesar T-Shirt)
>
>
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Curator Ti. Galerius Paulinus,
> Troianus Mercurius, Trajan Justinian and all citizens
> and peregrines, greetings.
>
> I hope you're all well; I'm well.
>
> Troianus Mercurius wrote:
>
> > White it is true that both gentlemen were military
> > geniuses, and both behaved with exemplary dignitas
> > and decorum, in the end their situations are not at
> > all parallel - so let's head this off before it
> > turns into another "T-Shirt Commentaries," Please!
>
> I quite agree, which is why I clearly flagged my
> comments as a tangent. I have no desire to discuss
> Rommel, and would be completely out of my depth if I
> tried. But surely a polite discussion of Julius Caesar
> isn't out of order? :)
>
> Trajan Justinian wrote:
>
> > Would i be correct in thinking that dignitas here
> > means place in
> > society as opposed to ones morals or ethics?
>
> Well... one of the wonderful things about Latin is
> that it has so many words which it takes books and
> books to explain adequately. My understanding of the
> Roman concept of 'dignitas' is that it meant something
> like 'the esteem in which one is held by one's peers,
> which is earned by one's services to the nation and
> which is measured by one's honores - the public
> offices and other rewards one is given by one's peers
> in recognition of these services.' There's a
> fascinating analysis of this and other Roman concepts,
> in relation to Caesar and others, in J. D. Minyard's
> 'Lucretius and the Late Republic' in Mnemosyne
> Supplement 90 (1985). Essentially, Caesar felt that
> his services to Rome were not being recognised and the
> appropriate honores were not being given.
>
> As for the main substance of the question, Troianus
> Mercurius wrote:
>
> > G. Iulius Caesar fought against his own people to
> > remove a corrupted Government, after defeating his
> > countries' enemies.
> ...
> > While civil wars are horrible, nevertheless I
> > believe it is clear that G. Iulius Caesar was
> > overall the more Virtuous, which is to say he did a
> > better job of Living the Virtues we hold dear. That
> > being said, let us please avoid another digression
> > into discussing Nazism. In Sum: Nazis are bad,
> > Rommel was good, but Caesar was better - let's leave
> > it at that and end this thread please!
>
> and Curator Paulinus wrote:
>
> > It seems that a large number of Caesars
> > contemporaries lost sight that the "people" where
> > half the equation. On two occasions, in Roman
> > history the plebians walked out because their need
> > and wants were not being considered. The Oligarch's
> > never had a plan except their own hold on power.
> ...
> > As to dignitas' Caesar did no less than others would
> > have done, His repeated attempts at compromise fell
> > on deaf ears. The only Unconstitutional action
> > Caesar took , the crossing of the Rubicon, was after
> > his enemies forced his hand and had declared war on
> > him.
> >
> > How many unconstitutional acts can be laid at the
> > feet of his opponents?
>
> I'd like to be clear that I'm not interested in
> deciding how virtuous Caesar was in general; nor am I
> suggesting that he never did Roman any service in his
> career. I also wouldn't dream of suggesting that he
> was the first to act against the constitution of the
> republic; but that's frankly irrelevant, unless you
> buy the argument that once one person has broken the
> rules it's okay for everyone else to do the same - I
> don't.
>
> Yes, the republic was in a mess; yes, many of those
> who upheld the constitution were the same people who
> were resisting measures to help the lower classes. But
> Rome was a state based on popular participation and
> the rule of law - in many ways as democratic as modern
> liberal democracies. In such states procedures are
> provided for peaceful reform based on elections and
> legislation without the need for force. And in a state
> which can be reformed from within using the existing
> system, imperfect though that system may be, there is
> in my view no justification for going outside the
> system to achieve reform. I live in the UK, and
> there's plenty that needs improving here, including
> the system by which things get improved; but that
> doesn't mean I'd be justified in overthrowing the
> legitimate government to make those improvements.
>
> As for Caesar's dignitas, Minyard's article makes the
> crucial point: if dignitas is the recognition by
> society of one's worth, then it is absurd to make war
> on that society on behalf of one's dignitas. What can
> one hope to do - force people at the point of a sword
> to recognise one's worth? What sort of recognition is
> that? Achilles was in the same situation, and may be
> criticised for his sulky behaviour and his excessively
> cruel revenge on his enemy, but it is significant that
> he never even contemplated attacking the Greeks. It
> would have been both inexcusable and absurd; and it
> was both inexcusable and absurd when Sulla did it,
> when Marius did it, when Caesar did it, and when
> Octavian did it.
>
> The use of force to reform an autocratic or
> authoritarian state may be justifiable; I do not see
> how the use of force to reform a democratic state can
> ever be justified.
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16356 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Antigone - Ludi Plebeain theater
AntigoneBy SophoclesTranslated by R. C. Jebb----------------------------------------------------------------------Dramatis Personaedaughters of Oedipus:ANTIGONEISMENECREON, King of ThebesEURYDICE, his wifeHAEMON, his sonTEIRESIAS, the blind prophetGUARD, set to watch the corpse of PolyneicesFIRST MESSENGERSECOND MESSENGER, from the houseCHORUS OF THEBAN ELDERS----------------------------------------------------------------------The same as in Oedipus the King, an open space before the royal palace,once that of Oedipus, at Thebes. The backscene represents the frontof the palace, with three doors, of which the central and largestis the principal entrance into the house. The time is at daybreakon the morning after the fall of the two brothers, Eteocles and Polyneices,and the flight of the defeated Argives. ANTIGONE calls ISMENE forthfrom the palace, in order to speak to her alone.----------------------------------------------------------------------ANTIGONE Ismene, sister, mine own dear
sister, knowest thou whatill there is, of all bequeathed by Oedipus, that Zeus fulfils notfor us twain while we live? Nothing painful is there, nothing fraughtwith ruin, no shame, no dishonour, that I have not seen in thy woesand mine. And now what new edict is this of which they tell, that our Captainhath just published to all Thebes? Knowest thou aught? Hast thou heard?Or is it hidden from thee that our friends are threatened with thedoom of our foes? ISMENE No word of friends, Antigone, gladsome or painful, hath cometo me, since we two sisters were bereft of brothers twain, killedin one day by twofold blow; and since in this last night the Argivehost hath fled, know no more, whether my fortune be brighter, or moregrievous. ANTIGONE I knew it well, and therefore sought to bring thee beyondthe gates of the court, that thou mightest hear alone. ISMENE What is it? 'Tis plain that thou art brooding on some darktidings. ANTIGONE What, hath not Creon destined our brothers, the one to
honouredburial, the other to unburied shame? Eteocles, they say, with dueobservance of right and custom, he hath laid in the earth, for hishonour among the dead below. But the hapless corpse of Polyneices-asrumour saith, it hath been published to the town that none shall entombhim or mourn, but leave unwept, unsepulchred, a welcome store forthe birds, as they espy him, to feast on at will. Such, 'tis said, is the edict that the good Creon hath set forth forthee and for me,-yes, for me,-and is coming hither to proclaim itclearly to those who know it not; nor counts the matter light, but,whoso disobeys in aught, his doom is death by stoning before all thefolk. Thou knowest it now; and thou wilt soon show whether thou artnobly bred, or the base daughter of a noble line. ISMENE Poor sister,-and if things stand thus, what could I help todo or undo? ANTIGONE Consider if thou wilt share the toil and the deed.ISMENE In what venture? What can be thy meaning? ANTIGONE Wilt thou aid this hand
to lift the dead? ISMENE Thou wouldst bury him,-when 'tis forbidden to Thebes?ANTIGONE I will do my part,-and thine, if thou wilt not,-to a brother.False to him will I never be found. ISMENE Ah, over-bold! when Creon hath forbidden? ANTIGONE Nay, he hath no right to keep me from mine own.ISMENE Ah me! think, sister, how our father perished, amid hate andscorn, when sins bared by his own search had moved him to strike botheyes with self-blinding hand; then the mother wife, two names in one,with twisted noose did despite unto her life; and last, our two brothersin one day,-each shedding, hapless one, a kinsman's blood,-wroughtout with mutual hands their common doom. And now we in turn-we twoleft all alone think how we shall perish, more miserably than allthe rest, if, in defiance of the law, we brave a king's decree orhis powers. Nay, we must remember, first, that we were born women,as who should not strive with men; next, that we are ruled of thestronger, so that we must obey in
these things, and in things yetsorer. I, therefore, asking the Spirits Infernal to pardon, seeingthat force is put on me herein, will hearken to our rulers. for 'tiswitless to be over busy. ANTIGONE I will not urge thee,-no nor, if thou yet shouldst havethe mind, wouldst thou be welcome as a worker with me. Nay, be whatthou wilt; but I will bury him: well for me to die in doing that.I shall rest, a loved one with him whom I have loved, sinless in mycrime; for I owe a longer allegiance to the dead than to the living:in that world I shall abide for ever. But if thou wilt, be guiltyof dishonouring laws which the gods have stablished in honour.ISMENE I do them no dishonour; but to defy the State,-I have no strengthfor that. ANTIGONE Such be thy plea:-I, then, will go to heap the earth abovethe brother whom I love. ISMENE Alas, unhappy one! How I fear for thee! ANTIGONE Fear not for me: guide thine own fate aright. ISMENE: At least, then, disclose this plan to none, but hide it
closely,-andso, too, will I. ANTIGONE Oh, denounce it! Thou wilt be far more hateful for thy silence,if thou proclaim not these things to all. ISMENE Thou hast a hot heart for chilling deeds. ANTIGONE I know that I please where I am most bound to please.ISMENE Aye, if thou canst; but thou wouldst what thou canst not.ANTIGONE Why, then, when my strength fails, I shall have done.ISMENE A hopeless quest should not be made at all. ANTIGONE If thus thou speakest, thou wilt have hatred from me, andwill justly be subject to the lasting hatred of the dead. But leaveme, and the folly that is mine alone, to suffer this dread thing;for I shall not suffer aught so dreadful as an ignoble death.ISMENE Go, then, if thou must; and of this be sure,-that though thineerrand is foolish, to thy dear ones thou art truly dear. (Exit ANTIGONEon the spectators' left. ISMENE retires into the palace by one ofthe two side-doors. When they have departed, the CHORUS OF THEBANELDERS enters.) CHORUS (singing,
strophe 1)Beam of the sun, fairest light that ever dawned on Thebe of the sevengates, thou hast shone forth at last, eye of golden day, arisen aboveDirce's streams! The warrior of the white shield, who came from Argosin his panoply, hath been stirred by thee to headlong flight, in swiftercareer; LEADER OF THE CHORUS (systema 1)who set forth against our land by reason of the vexed claims of Polyneices;and, like shrill-screaming eagle, he flew over into our land, in snow-whitepinion sheathed, with an armed throng, and with plumage of helms.CHORUS (antistrophe 1)He paused above our dwellings; he ravened around our sevenfold portalswith spears athirst for blood; but he went hence, or ever his jawswere glutted with our gore, or the Fire-god's pine-fed flame had seizedour crown of towers. So fierce was the noise of battle raised behindhim, a thing too hard for him to conquer, as he wrestled with hisdragon foe. LEADER (systema 2)For Zeus utterly abhors the boasts of a proud tongue; and
when hebeheld them coming on in a great stream, in the haughty pride of clanginggold, he smote with brandished fire one who was now hasting to shoutvictory at his goal upon our ramparts. CHORUS (strophe 2)Swung down, he fell on the earth with a crash, torch in hand, hewho so lately, in the frenzy of the mad onset, was raging againstus with the blasts of his tempestuous hate. But those threats farednot as he hoped; and to other foes the mighty War-god dispensed theirseveral dooms, dealing havoc around, a mighty helper at our need.LEADER (systema 3)For seven captains at seven gates, matched against seven, left thetribute of their panoplies to Zeus who turns the battle; save thosetwo of cruel fate, who, born of one sire and one mother, set againsteach other their twain conquering spears, and are sharers in a commondeath. CHORUS (antistrophe 2)But since Victory of glorious name hath come to us, with joy responsiveto the joy of Thebe whose chariots are many, let us enjoy
forgetfulnessafter the late wars, and visit all the temples of the gods with night-longdance and song; and may Bacchus be our leader, whose dancing shakesthe land of Thebe. LEADER (systema 4)But lo, the king of the land comes yonder, Creon, son of Menoeceus,our new ruler by the new fortunes that the gods have given; what counselis he pondering, that he hath proposed this special conference ofelders, summoned by his general mandate? (Enter CREON, from the centraldoors of the palace, in the garb of king, with two attendants.)CREON Sirs, the vessel of our State, after being tossed on wild waves,hath once more been safely steadied by the gods: and ye, out of allthe folk, have been called apart by my summons, because I knew, firstof all, how true and constant was your reverence for the royal powerof Laius; how, again, when Oedipus was ruler of our land, and whenhe had perished, your steadfast loyalty still upheld their children.Since, then, his sons have fallen in one day by a twofold
doom,-eachsmitten by the other, each stained with a brother's blood,-I now possessthe throne and all its powers, by nearness of kinship to the dead.No man can be fully known, in soul and spirit and mind, until he hathbeen seen versed in rule and law-giving. For if any, being supremeguide of the State, cleaves not to the best counsels, but, throughsome fear, keeps his lips locked, I hold, and have ever held, himmost base; and if any makes a friend of more account than his fatherland,that man hath no place in my regard. For I-be Zeus my witness, whosees all things always-would not be silent if I saw ruin, insteadof safety, coming to the citizens; nor would I ever deem the country'sfoe a friend to myself; remembering this, that our country is theship that bears us safe, and that only while she prospers in our voyagecan we make true friends. Such are the rules by which I guard this city's greatness. And inaccord with them is the edict which I have now published to the folktouching the
sons of Oedipus;-that Eteocles, who hath fallen fightingfor our city, in all renown of arms, shall be entombed, and crownedwith every rite that follows the noblest dead to their rest. But forhis brother, Polyneices,-who came back from exile, and sought to consumeutterly with fire the city of his fathers and the shrines of his fathers'gods,-sought to taste of kindred blood, and to lead the remnant intoslavery;-touching this man, it hath been proclaimed to our peoplethat none shall grace him with sepulture or lament, but leave himunburied, a corpse for birds and dogs to eat, a ghastly sight of shame.Such the spirit of my dealing; and never, by deed of mine, shall thewicked stand in honour before the just; but whoso hath good will toThebes, he shall be honoured of me, in his life and in his death.LEADER OF THE CHORUS Such is thy pleasure, Creon, son of Menoeceus,touching this city's foe, and its friend; and thou hast power, I ween,to take what order thou wilt, both for the dead, and
for all us wholive. CREON See, then, that ye be guardians of the mandate. LEADER Lay the burden of this task on some younger man.CREON Nay, watchers of the corpse have been found. LEADER What, then, is this further charge that thou wouldst give?CREON That ye side not with the breakers of these commands.LEADER No man is so foolish that he is enamoured of death.CREON In sooth, that is the meed; yet lucre hath oft ruined men throughtheir hopes. (A GUARD enters from the spectators' left.)GUARD My liege, I will not say that I come breathless from speed,or that have plied a nimble foot; for often did my thoughts make mepause, and wheel round in my path, to return. My mind was holdinglarge discourse with me; 'Fool, why goest thou to thy certain doom?''Wretch, tarrying again? And if Creon hears this from another, mustnot thou smart for it?' So debating, I went on my way with laggingsteps, and thus a short road was made long. At last, however, it carriedthe day that I should come hither-to
thee; and, though my tale benought, yet will I tell it; for I come with a good grip on one hope,-thatI can suffer nothing but what is my fate. CREON And what is it that disquiets thee thus? GUARD I wish to tell thee first about myself-I did not do the deed-Idid not see the doer-it were not right that I should come to any harm.CREON Thou hast a shrewd eye for thy mark; well dost thou fence thyselfround against the blame; clearly thou hast some strange thing to tell.GUARD Aye, truly; dread news makes one pause long. CREON Then tell it, wilt thou, and so get thee gone? GUARD Well, this is it.-The corpse-some one hath just given it burial,and gone away,-after sprinkling thirsty dust on the flesh, with suchother rites as piety enjoins. CREON What sayest thou? What living man hath dared this deed?GUARD I know not; no stroke of pickaxe was seen there, no earth thrownup by mattock; the ground was hard and dry, unbroken, without trackof wheels; the doer was one who had left no trace. And
when the firstday-watchman showed it to us, sore wonder fell on all. The dead manwas veiled from us; not shut within a tomb, but lightly strewn withdust, as by the hand of one who shunned a curse. And no sign met theeye as though any beast of prey or any dog had come nigh to him, ortorn him. Then evil words flew fast and loud among us, guard accusing guard;und it would e'en have come to blows at last, nor was there any tohinder. Every man was the culprit, and no one was convicted, but alldisclaimed knowledge of the deed. And we were ready to take red-hotiron in our hands;-to walk through fire;-to make oath by the godsthat we had not done the deed,-that we were not privy to the planningor the doing. At last, when all our searching was fruitless, one spake, who madeus all bend our faces on the earth in fear; for we saw not how wecould gainsay him, or escape mischance if we obeyed. His counsel wasthat this deed must be reported to thee, and not hidden. And thisseemed best; and the lot
doomed my hapless self to win this prize.So here I stand,-as unwelcome as unwilling, well I wot; for no mandelights in the bearer of bad news. LEADER O king, my thoughts have long been whispering, can this deed,perchance, be e'en the work of gods? CREON Cease, ere thy words fill me utterly with wrath, lest thoube found at once an old man and foolish. For thou sayest what is notto be borne, in saying that the gods have care for this corpse. Wasit for high reward of trusty service that they sought to hide hisnakedness, who came to burn their pillared shrines and sacred treasures,to burn their land, and scatter its laws to the winds? Or dost thoubehold the gods honouring the wicked? It cannot be. No! From the firstthere were certain in the town that muttered against me, chafing atthis edict, wagging their heads in secret; and kept not their necksduly under the yoke, like men contented with my sway. 'Tis by them, well I know, that these have been beguiled and bribedto do this deed.
Nothing so evil as money ever grew to be currentamong men. This lays cities low, this drives men from their homes,this trains and warps honest souls till they set themselves to worksof shame; this still teaches folk to practise villainies, and to knowevery godless deed. But all the men who wrought this thing for hire have made it surethat, soon or late, they shall pay the price. Now, as Zeus still hathmy reverence, know this-I tell it thee on my oath:-If ye find notthe very author of this burial, and produce him before mine eyes,death alone shall not be enough for you, till first, hung up alive,ye have revealed this outrage,-that henceforth ye may thieve withbetter knowledge whence lucre should be won, and learn that it isnot well to love gain from every source. For thou wilt find that ill-gottenpelf brings more men to ruin than to weal. GUARD May I speak? Or shall I just turn and go? CREON Knowest thou not that even now thy voice offends?GUARD Is thy smart in the ears, or in the
soul? CREON And why wouldst thou define the seat of my pain? GUARD The doer vexes thy mind, but I, thine ears. CREON Ah, thou art a born babbler, 'tis well seen. GUARD May be, but never the doer of this deed. CREON Yea, and more,-the seller of thy life for silver.GUARD Alas! 'Tis sad, truly, that he who judges should misjudge.CREON Let thy fancy play with 'judgment' as it will;-but, if ye showme not the doers of these things, ye shall avow that dastardly gainswork sorrows. (CREON goes into the palace.) GUARD Well, may he be found! so 'twere best. But, be he caught orbe he not-fortune must settle that-truly thou wilt not see me hereagain. Saved, even now, beyond hope and thought, I owe the gods greatthanks. (The GUARD goes out on the spectators' left.) CHORUS (singing, strophe 1)Wonders are many, and none is more wonderful than man; the powerthat crosses the white sea, driven by the stormy south-wind, makinga path under surges that threaten to engulf him; and Earth, the eldestof
the gods, the immortal, the unwearied, doth he wear, turning thesoil with the offspring of horses, as the ploughs go to and fro fromyear to year. (antistrophe 1)And the light-hearted race of birds, and the tribes of savage beasts,and the sea-brood of the deep, he snares in the meshes of his woventoils, he leads captive, man excellent in wit. And he masters by hisarts the beast whose lair is in the wilds, who roams the hills; hetames the horse of shaggy mane, he puts the yoke upon its neck, hetames the tireless mountain bull. (strophe 2)And speech, and wind-swift thought, and all the moods that moulda state, hath he taught himself; and how to flee the arrows of thefrost, when 'tis hard lodging under the clear sky, and the arrowsof the rushing rain; yea, he hath resource for all; without resourcehe meets nothing that must come: only against Death shall he callfor aid in vain; but from baffling maladies he hath devised escapes.(antistrophe 2)Cunning beyond fancy's dream is the fertile
skill which brings him,now to evil, now to good. When he honours the laws of the land, andthat justice which he hath sworn by the gods to uphold, proudly standshis city: no city hath he who, for his rashness, dwells with sin.Never may he share my hearth, never think my thoughts, who doth thesethings! (Enter the GUARD on the spectators' left, leading in ANTIGONE.)LEADER OF THE CHORUS What portent from the gods is this?-my soulis amazed. I know her-how can I deny that yon maiden is Antigone?O hapless, and child of hapless sire,-Of Oedipus! What means this?Thou brought a prisoner?-thou, disloyal to the king's laws, and takenin folly? GUARD Here she is, the doer of the deed:-caught this girl buryinghim:-but where is Creon? (CREON enters hurriedly from the palace.)LEADER Lo, he comes forth again from the house, at our need.CREON What is it? What hath chanced, that makes my coming timely?GUARD O king, against nothing should men pledge their word; for theafter-thought belies the first
intent. I could have vowed that I shouldnot soon be here again,-scared by thy threats, with which I had justbeen lashed: but,-since the joy that surprises and transcends ourhopes is like in fulness to no other pleasure,-I have come, though'tis in breach of my sworn oath, bringing this maid; who was takenshowing grace to the dead. This time there was no casting of lots;no, this luck hath fallen to me, and to none else. And now, sire,take her thyself, question her, examine her, as thou wilt; but I havea right to free and final quittance of this trouble. CREON And thy prisoner here-how and whence hast thou taken her?GUARD She was burying the man; thou knowest all. CREON Dost thou mean what thou sayest? Dost thou speak aright?GUARD I saw her burying the corpse that thou hadst forbidden to bury.Is that plain and clear? CREON And how was she seen? how taken in the act? GUARD It befell on this wise. When we had come to the place,-withthose dread menaces of thine upon us,-we swept away all
the dust thatcovered the corpse, and bared the dank body well; and then sat usdown on the brow of the hill, to windward, heedful that the smellfrom him should not strike us; every man was wide awake, and kepthis neighbour alert with torrents of threats, if anyone should becareless of this task. So went it, until the sun's bright orb stood in mid heaven, and theheat began to burn: and then suddenly a whirlwind lifted from theearth storm of dust, a trouble in the sky the plain, marring all theleafage of its woods; and the wide air was choked therewith: we closedour eyes, and bore the plague from the gods. And when, after a long while, this storm had passed, the maid wasseen; and she cried aloud with the sharp cry of a bird in its bitterness,-evenas when, within the empty nest, it sees the bed stripped of its nestlings.So she also, when she saw the corpse bare, lifted up a voice of wailing,and called down curses on the doers of that deed. And straightwayshe brought thirsty dust in her
hands; and from a shapely ewer ofbronze, held high, with thrice-poured drink-offering she crowned thedead. We rushed forward when we saw it, and at once dosed upon our quarry,who was in no wise dismayed. Then we taxed her with her past and presentdoings; and she stood not on denial of aught,-at once to my joy andto my pain. To have escaped from ills one's self is a great joy; but'tis painful to bring friends to ill. Howbeit, all such things areof less account to me than mine own safety. CREON Thou-thou whose face is bent to earth-dost thou avow, or disavow,this deed? ANTIGONE I avow it; I make no denial. CREON (to GUARD) Thou canst betake thee whither thou wilt, freeand clear of a grave charge. (Exit GUARD, To ANTIGONE) Now, tellme thou-not in many words, but briefly-knewest thou that an edicthad forbidden this? ANTIGONE I knew it: could I help it? It was public. CREON And thou didst indeed dare to transgress that law?ANTIGONE Yes; for it was not Zeus that had published me that
edict;not such are the laws set among men by the justice who dwells withthe gods below; nor deemed I that thy decrees were of such force,that a mortal could override the unwritten and unfailing statutesof heaven. For their life is not of to-day or yesterday, but fromall time, and no man knows when they were first put forth.Not through dread of any human pride could I answer to the gods forbreaking these. Die I must,-I knew that well (how should I not?)-evenwithout thy edicts. But if I am to die before my time, I count thata gain: for when any one lives, as I do, compassed about with evils,can such an one find aught but gain in death? So for me to meet this doom is trifling grief; but if I had sufferedmy mother's son to lie in death an unburied corpse, that would havegrieved me; for this, I am not grieved. And if my present deeds arefoolish in thy sight, it may be that a foolish judge arraigns my folly.LEADER OF THE CHORUS The maid shows herself passionate child of passionatesire,
and knows not how to bend before troubles. CREON Yet I would have thee know that o'er-stubborn spirits are mostoften humbled; 'tis the stiffest iron, baked to hardness in the fire,that thou shalt oftenest see snapped and shivered; and I have knownhorses that show temper brought to order by a little curb; there isno room for pride when thou art thy neighbour's slave.-This girl wasalready versed in insolence when she transgressed the laws that hadbeen set forth; and, that done, lo, a second insult,-to vaunt of this,and exult in her deed. Now verily I am no man, she is the man, if this victory shall restwith her, and bring no penalty. No! be she sister's child, or nearerto me in blood than any that worships Zeus at the altar of our house,-sheand her kinsfolk shall not avoid a doom most dire; for indeed I chargethat other with a like share in the plotting of this burial.And summon her-for I saw her e'en now within,-raving, and not mistressof her wits. So oft, before the deed, the mind
stands self-convictedin its treason, when folks are plotting mischief in the dark. Butverily this, too, is hateful,-when one who hath been caught in wickednesthen seeks to make the crime a glory. ANTIGONE Wouldst thou do more than take and slay me? CREON No more, indeed; having that, I have all. ANTIGONE Why then dost thou delay? In thy discourse there is noughtthat pleases me,-never may there be!-and so my words must needs beunpleasing to thee. And yet, for glory-whence could I have won a nobler,than by giving burial to mine own brother? All here would own thatthey thought it well, were not their lips sealed by fear. But royalty,blest in so much besides, hath the power to do and say what it will.CREON Thou differest from all these Thebans in that view.ANTIGONE These also share it; but they curb their tongues for thee.CREON And art thou not ashamed to act apart from them? ANTIGONE No; there is nothing shameful in piety to a brother.CREON Was it not a brother, too, that died in the
opposite cause?ANTIGONE Brother by the same mother and the same sire. CREON Why, then, dost thou render a grace that is impious in hissight? ANTIGONE The dead man will not say that he so deems it.CREON Yea, if thou makest him but equal in honour with the wicked.ANTIGONE It was his brother, not his slave, that perished.CREON Wasting this land; while he fell as its champion.ANTIGONE Nevertheless, Hades desires these rites. CREON But the good desires not a like portion with the evil.ANTIGONE Who knows but this seems blameless in the world below?CREON A foe is never a friend-not even in death. ANTIGONE Tis not my nature to join in hating, but in loving.CREON Pass, then, to the world of the dead, and, it thou must needslove, love them. While I live, no woman shall rule me. (Enter ISMENEfrom the house, led in by two attendants.) CHORUS (chanting) Lo, yonder Ismene comes forth, shedding such tearsas fond sisters weep; a cloud upon her brow casts its shadow overher darkly-flushing face,
and breaks in rain on her fair cheek.CREON And thou, who, lurking like a viper in my house, wast secretlydraining my life-blood, while I knew not that I was nurturing twopests, to rise against my throne-come, tell me now, wilt thou alsoconfess thy part in this burial, or wilt thou forswear all knowledgeof it? ISMENE I have done the deed,-if she allows my claim,-and share theburden of the charge. ANTIGONE Nay, justice will not suffer thee to do that: thou didstnot consent to the deed, nor did I give thee part in it.ISMENE But, now that ills beset thee, I am not ashamed to sail thesea of trouble at thy side. ANTIGONE Whose was the deed, Hades and the dead are witnesses: afriend in words is not the friend that I love. ISMENE Nay, sister, reject me not, but let me die with thee, andduly honour the dead. ANTIGONE Share not thou my death, nor claim deeds to which thou hastnot put thy hand: my death will suffice. ISMENE And what life is dear to me, bereft of thee? ANTIGONE Ask Creon; all
thy care is for him. ISMENE Why vex me thus, when it avails thee nought? ANTIGONE Indeed, if I mock, 'tis with pain that I mock thee.ISMENE Tell me,-how can I serve thee, even now? ANTIGONE Save thyself: I grudge not thy escape. ISMENE Ah, woe is me! And shall I have no share in thy fate?ANTIGONE Thy choice was to live; mine, to die. ISMENE At least thy choice was not made without my protest.ANTIGONE One world approved thy wisdom; another, mine. ISMENE Howbeit, the offence is the same for both of us.ANTIGONE Be of good cheer; thou livest; but my life hath long beengiven to death, that so I might serve the dead. CREON Lo, one of these maidens hath newly shown herself foolish,as the other hath been since her life began. ISMENE Yea, O king, such reason as nature may have given abides notwith the unfortunate, but goes astray. CREON Thine did, when thou chosest vile deeds with the vile.ISMENE What life could I endure, without her presence? CREON Nay, speak not of her 'presence'; she
lives no more.ISMENE But wilt thou slay the betrothed of thine own son?CREON Nay, there are other fields for him to plough. ISMENE But there can never be such love as bound him to her.CREON I like not an evil wife for my son. ANTIGONE Haemon, beloved! How thy father wrongs thee! CREON Enough, enough of thee and of thy marriage! LEADER OF THE CHORUS Wilt thou indeed rob thy son of this maiden?CREON 'Tis Death that shall stay these bridals for me. LEADER 'Tis determined, it seems, that she shall die. CREON Determined, yes, for thee and for me.- (To the two attendants)No more delay-servants, take them within! Henceforth they must bewomen, and not range at large; for verily even the bold seek to fly,when they see Death now closing on their life. (Exeunt attendants,guarding ANTIGONE and ISMENE.-CREON remains.) CHORUS (singing, strophe 1)Blest are they whose days have not tasted of evil. For when a househath once been shaken from heaven, there the curse fails nevermore,passing from
life to life of the race; even as, when the surge isdriven over the darkness of the deep by the fierce breath of Thraciansea-winds, it rolls up the black sand from the depths, and there issullen roar from wind-vexed headlands that front the blows of thestorm. (antistrophe 1)I see that from olden time the sorrows in the house of the Labdacidaeare heaped upon the sorrows of the dead; and generation is not freedby generation, but some god strikes them down, and the race hath nodeliverance. For now that hope of which the light had been spread above the lastroot of the house of Oedipus-that hope, in turn, is brought low--bythe blood-stained dust due to the gods infernal, and by folly in speech,and frenzy at the heart. (strophe 2)Thy power, O Zeus, what human trespass can limit? That power whichneither Sleep, the all-ensnaring, nor the untiring months of the godscan master; but thou, a ruler to whom time brings not old age, dwellestin the dazzling splendour of Olympus. And through the
future, near and far, as through the past, shall thislaw hold good: Nothing that is vast enters into the life of mortalswithout a curse. (antistrophe 2)For that hope whose wanderings are so wide is to many men a comfort,but to many a false lure of giddy desires; and the disappointmentcomes on one who knoweth nought till he burn his foot against thehot fire. For with wisdom hath some one given forth the famous saying, thatevil seems good, soon or late, to him whose mind the god draws tomischief; and but for the briefest space doth he fare free of woe.LEADER OF THE CHORUS But lo, Haemon, the last of thy sons;-Comeshe grieving for the doom of his promised bride, Antigone, and bitterfor the baffled hope of his marriage? (Enter HAEMON) CREON We shall know soon, better than seers could tell us.-My son,hearing the fixed doom of thy betrothed, art thou come in rage againstthy father? Or have I thy good will, act how I may? HAEMON Father, I am thine; and thou, in thy wisdom, tracest for
merules which I shall follow. No marriage shall be deemed by me a greatergain than thy good guidance. CREON Yea, this, my son, should be thy heart's fixed law,-in allthings to obey thy father's will. 'Tis for this that men pray to seedutiful children grow up around them in their homes,-that such mayrequite their father's foe with evil, and honour, as their fatherdoth, his friend. But he who begets unprofitable children-what shallwe say that he hath sown, but troubles for himself, and much triumphfor his foes? Then do not thou, my son, at pleasure's beck, dethronethy reason for a woman's sake; knowing that this is a joy that soongrows cold in clasping arms,-an evil woman to share thy bed and thyhome. For what wound could strike deeper than a false friend? Nay,with loathing, and as if she were thine enemy, let this girl go tofind a husband in the house of Hades. For since I have taken her,alone of all the city, in open disobedience, I will not make myselfa liar to my people-I will
slay her. So let her appeal as she will to the majesty of kindred blood. IfI am to nurture mine own kindred in naughtiness, needs must I bearwith it in aliens. He who does his duty in his own household willbe found righteous in the State also. But if any one transgresses,and does violence to the laws, or thinks to dictate to his rulers,such an one can win no praise from me. No, whomsoever the city mayappoint, that man must be obeyed, in little things and great, in justthings and unjust; and I should feel sure that one who thus obeyswould be a good ruler no less than a good subject, and in the stormof spears would stand his ground where he was set, loyal and dauntlessat his comrade's side. But disobedience is the worst of evils. This it is that ruins cities;this makes homes desolate; by this, the ranks of allies are brokeninto head-long rout; but, of the lives whose course is fair, the greaterpart owes safety to obedience. Therefore we must support the causeof order, and in no wise
suffer a woman to worst us. Better to fallfrom power, if we must, by a man's hand; then we should not be calledweaker than a woman. LEADER To us, unless our years have stolen our wit, thou seemestto say wisely what thou sayest. HAEMON Father, the gods implant reason in men, the highest of allthings that we call our own. Not mine the skill-far from me be thequest!-to say wherein thou speakest not aright; and yet another man,too, might have some useful thought. At least, it is my natural officeto watch, on thy behalf, all that men say, or do, or find to blame.For the dread of thy frown forbids the citizen to speak such wordsas would offend thine ear; but can hear these murmurs in the dark,these moanings of the city for this maiden; 'no woman,' they say,'ever merited her doom less,-none ever was to die so shamefully fordeeds so glorious as hers; who, when her own brother had fallen inbloody strife, would not leave him unburied, to be devoured by carriondogs, or by any bird:-deserves
not she the meed of golden honour?'Such is the darkling rumour that spreads in secret. For me, my father,no treasure is so precious as thy welfare. What, indeed, is a noblerornament for children than a prospering sire's fair fame, or for sirethan son's? Wear not, then, one mood only in thyself; think not thatthy word, and thine alone, must be right. For if any man thinks thathe alone is wise,-that in speech, or in mind, he hath no peer,-sucha soul, when laid open, is ever found empty. No, though a man be wise, 'tis no shame for him to learn many things,and to bend in season. Seest thou, beside the wintry torrent's course,how the trees that yield to it save every twig, while the stiff-neckedperish root and branch? And even thus he who keeps the sheet of hissail taut, and never slackens it, upsets his boat, and finishes hisvoyage with keel uppermost. Nay, forego thy wrath; permit thyself to change. For if I, a youngerman, may offer my thought, it were far best, I ween, that men
shouldbe all-wise by nature; but, otherwise-and oft the scale inclines notso-'tis good also to learn from those who speak aright. LEADER Sire, 'tis meet that thou shouldest profit by his words, ifhe speaks aught in season, and thou, Haemon, by thy father's; foron both parts there hath been wise speech. CREON Men of my age are we indeed to be schooled, then, by men ofhis? HAEMON In nothing that is not right; but if I am young, thou shouldestlook to my merits, not to my years. CREON Is it a merit to honour the unruly? HAEMON I could wish no one to show respect for evil-doers.CREON Then is not she tainted with that malady? HAEMON Our Theban folk, with one voice, denies it. CREON Shall Thebes prescribe to me how I must rule? HAEMON See, there thou hast spoken like a youth indeed.CREON Am I to rule this land by other judgment than mine own?HAEMON That is no city which belongs to one man. CREON Is not the city held to be the ruler's? HAEMON Thou wouldst make a good monarch of a desert.
CREON This boy, it seems, is the woman's champion. HAEMON If thou art a woman; indeed, my care is for thee.CREON Shameless, at open feud with thy father! HAEMON Nay, I see thee offending against justice. CREON Do I offend, when I respect mine own prerogatives?HAEMON Thou dost not respect them, when thou tramplest on the gods'honours, CREON O dastard nature, yielding place to woman! HAEMON Thou wilt never find me yield to baseness. CREON All thy words, at least, plead for that girl. HAEMON And for thee, and for me, and for the gods below.CREON Thou canst never marry her, on this side the grave.HAEMON Then she must die, and in death destroy another.CREON How! doth thy boldness run to open threats? HAEMON What threat is it, to combat vain resolves? CREON Thou shalt rue thy witless teaching of wisdom. HAEMON Wert thou not my father, I would have called thee unwise.CREON Thou woman's slave, use not wheedling speech with me.HAEMON Thou wouldest speak, and then hear no reply? CREON Sayest
thou so? Now, by the heaven above us-be sure of it-thoushalt smart for taunting me in this opprobrious strain. Bring forththat hated thing, that she may die forthwith in his presence-beforehis eyes-at her bridegroom's side! HAEMON No, not at my side-never think it-shall she perish; nor shaltthou ever set eyes more upon my face:-rave, then, with such friendsas can endure thee. (Exit HAEMON) LEADER The man is gone, O king, in angry haste; a youthful mind,when stung, is fierce. CREON Let him do, or dream, more than man-good speed to him!-Buthe shall not save these two girls from their doom. LEADER Dost thou indeed purpose to slay both? CREON Not her whose hands are pure: thou sayest well. LEADER And by what doom mean'st thou to slay the other?CREON I will take her where the path is loneliest, and hide her,living, in rocky vault, with so much food set forth as piety prescribes,that the city may avoid a public stain. And there, praying to Hades,the only god whom she worships, perchance
she will obtain releasefrom death; or else will learn, at last, though late, that it is lostlabour to revere the dead. (CREON goes into the palace.)CHORUS (singing, strophe)Love, unconquered in the fight, Love, who makest havoc of wealth,who keepest thy vigil on the soft cheek of a maiden; thou roamestover the sea, and among the homes of dwellers in the wilds; no immortalcan escape thee, nor any among men whose life is for a day; and heto whom thou hast come is mad. (antistrophe)The just themselves have their minds warped by thee to wrong, fortheir ruin: 'tis thou that hast stirred up this present strife ofkinsmen; victorious is the love-kindling light from the eyes of thefair bride; it is a power enthroned in sway beside the eternal laws;for there the goddess Aphrodite is working her unconquerable will.(ANTIGONE is led out of the palace by two Of CREON'S attendants whoare about to conduct her to her doom.) But now I also am carriedbeyond the bounds of loyalty, and can no more
keep back the streamingtears, when I see Antigone thus passing to the bridal chamber whereall are laid to rest. (The following lines between ANTIGONE and theCHORUS are chanted responsively.) ANTIGONE (strophe 1)See me, citizens of my fatherland, setting forth on my last way,looking my last on the sunlight that is for me no more; no, Hadeswho gives sleep to all leads me living to Acheron's shore; who havehad no portion in the chant that brings the bride, nor hath any songbeen mine for the crowning of bridals; whom the lord of the Dark Lakeshall wed. CHORUS (systema 1)Glorious, therefore, and with praise, thou departest to that deepplace of the dead: wasting sickness hath not smitten thee; thou hastnot found the wages of the sword; no, mistress of thine own fate,and still alive, thou shalt pass to Hades, as no other of mortal kindhath passed. ANTIGONE (antistrophe 1)I have heard in other days how dread a doom befell our Phrygian guest,the daughter of Tantalus, on the Sipylian
heights; I how, like clingingivy, the growth of stone subdued her; and the rains fail not, as mentell, from her wasting form, nor fails the snow, while beneath herweeping lids the tears bedew her bosom; and most like to hers is thefate that brings me to my rest. CHORUS (systema 2)Yet she was a goddess, thou knowest, and born of gods; we are mortals,and of mortal race. But 'tis great renown for a woman who hath perishedthat she should have shared the doom of the godlike, in her life,and afterward in death. ANTIGONE (strophe 2)Ah, I am mocked! In the name of our fathers' gods, can ye not waittill I am gone,-must ye taunt me to my face, O my city, and ye, herwealthy sons? Ah, fount of Dirce, and thou holy ground of Thebe whosechariots are many; ye, at least, will bear me witness, in what sort,unwept of friends, and by what laws I pass to the rock-closed prisonof my strange tomb, ah me unhappy! who have no home on the earth orin the shades, no home with the living or with the
dead.CHORUS (strophe 3)Thou hast rushed forward to the utmost verge of daring; and againstthat throne where justice sits on high thou hast fallen, my daughter,with a grievous fall. But in this ordeal thou art paying, haply, forthy father's sin. ANTIGONE (antistrophe 2)Thou hast touched on my bitterest thought,-awaking the ever-new lamentfor my sire and for all the doom given to us, the famed house of Labdacus.Alas for the horrors of the mother's bed! alas for the wretched mother'sslumber at the side of her own son,-and my sire! From what mannerof parents did I take my miserable being! And to them I go thus, accursed,unwed, to share their home. Alas, my brother, ill-starred in thy marriage,in thy death thou hast undone my life! CHORUS (antistrophe 3)Reverent action claims a certain praise for reverence; but an offenceagainst power cannot be brooked by him who hath power in his keeping.Thy self-willed temper hath wrought thy ruin. ANTIGONE (epode)Unwept, unfriended, without
marriage-song, I am led forth in my sorrowon this journey that can be delayed no more. No longer, hapless one,may I behold yon day-star's sacred eye; but for my fate no tear isshed, no friend makes moan. (CREON enters from the palace.)CREON Know ye not that songs and wailings before death would nevercease, if it profited to utter them? Away with her-away! And whenye have enclosed her, according to my word, in her vaulted grave,leave her alone, forlorn-whether she wishes to die, or to live a buriedlife in such a home. Our hands are clean as touching this maiden.But this is certain-she shall be deprived of her sojourn in the light.ANTIGONE Tomb, bridal-chamber, eternal prison in the caverned rock,whither go to find mine own, those many who have perished, and whomPersephone hath received among the dead! Last of all shall I passthither, and far most miserably of all, before the term of my lifeis spent. But I cherish good hope that my coming will be welcome tomy father, and pleasant to
thee, my mother, and welcome, brother,to thee; for, when ye died, with mine own hands I washed and dressedyou, and poured drink-offerings at your graves; and now, Polyneices,'tis for tending thy corpse that I win such recompense as this.And yet I honoured thee, as the wise will deem, rightly. Never, hadbeen a mother of children, or if a husband had been mouldering indeath, would I have taken this task upon me in the city's despite.What law, ye ask, is my warrant for that word? The husband lost, anothermight have been found, and child from another, to replace the first-born:but, father and mother hidden with Hades, no brother's life couldever bloom for me again. Such was the law whereby I held thee firstin honour; but Creon deemed me guilty of error therein, and of outrage,ah brother mine! And now he leads me thus, a captive in his hands;no bridal bed, no bridal song hath been mine, no joy of marriage,no portion in the nurture of children; but thus, forlorn of friends,unhappy one, I
go living to the vaults of death. And what law of heaven have I transgressed? Why, hapless one, shouldI look to the gods any more,-what ally should I invoke,-when by pietyI have earned the name of impious? Nay, then, if these things arepleasing to the gods, when I have suffered my doom, I shall come toknow my sin; but if the sin is with my judges, I could wish them nofuller measure of evil than they, on their part, mete wrongfully tome. CHORUS Still the same tempest of the soul vexes this maiden withthe same fierce gusts. CREON Then for this shall her guards have cause to rue their slowness.ANTIGONE Ah me! that word hath come very near to death.CREON I can cheer thee with no hope that this doom is not thus tobe fulfilled. ANTIGONE O city of my fathers in the land of Thebe! O ye gods, eldestof our race!-they lead me henc--now, now-they tarry not! Behold me,princes of Thebes, the last daughter of the house of your kings,-seewhat I suffer, and from whom, because I feared to cast away
the fearof Heaven! (ANTIGONE is led away by the guards.) CHORUS (singing, strophe 1)Even thus endured Danae in her beauty to change the light of dayfor brass-bound walls; and in that chamber, secret as the grave, shewas held close prisoner; yet was she of a proud lineage, O my daughter,and charged with the keeping of the seed of Zeus, that fell in thegolden rain. But dreadful is the mysterious power of fate: there is no deliverancefrom it by wealth or by war, by fenced city, or dark, sea-beaten ships.(antistrophe 1)And bonds tamed the son of Dryas, swift to wrath, that king of theEdonians; so paid he for his frenzied taunts, when, by the will ofDionysus, he was pent in a rocky prison. There the fierce exuberanceof his madness slowly passed away. That man learned to know the god,whom in his frenzy he had provoked with mockeries; for he had soughtto quell the god-possessed women, and the Bacchanalian fire; and heangered the Muses that love the flute. (strophe 2)And by the waters of
the Dark Rocks, the waters of the twofold sea,are the shores of Bosporus, and Thracian Salmydessus; where Ares,neighbour to the city, saw the accurst, blinding wound dealt to thetwo sons of Phineus by his fierce wife,-the wound that brought darknessto those vengeance-craving orbs, smitten with her bloody hands, smittenwith her shuttle for a dagger. (antistrophe 2)Pining in their misery, they bewailed their cruel doom, those sonsof a mother hapless in her marriage; but she traced her descent fromthe ancient line of the Erechtheidae; and in far-distant caves shewas nursed amid her father's storms, that child of Boreas, swift asa steed over the steep hills, a daughter of gods; yet upon her alsothe gray Fates bore hard, my daughter. (Enter TEIRESIAS, led by aBoy, on the spectators' right.) TEIRESIAS Princes of Thebes, we have come with linked steps, bothserved by the eyes of one; for thus, by a guide's help, the blindmust walk. CREON And what, aged Teiresias, are thy tidings?
TEIRESIAS I will tell thee; and do thou hearken to the seer.CREON Indeed, it has not been my wont to slight thy counsel.TEIRESIAS Therefore didst thou steer our city's course aright.CREON I have felt, and can attest, thy benefits. TEIRESIAS Mark that now, once more, thou standest on fate's fineedge. CREON What means this? How I shudder at thy message! TEIRESIAS Thou wilt learn, when thou hearest the warnings of mineart. As I took my place on mine old seat of augury, where all birdshave been wont to gather within my ken, I heard a strange voice amongthem; they were screaming with dire, feverish rage, that drowned theirlanguage in jargon; and I knew that they were rending each other withtheir talons, murderously; the whirr of wings told no doubtful tale.Forthwith, in fear, I essayed burnt-sacrifice on a duly kindled altar:but from my offerings the Fire-god showed no flame; a dank moisture,oozing from the thigh-flesh, trickled forth upon the embers, and smoked,and sputtered; the gall
was scattered to the air; and the streamingthighs lay bared of the fat that had been wrapped round them.Such was the failure of the rites by which I vainly asked a sign,as from this boy I learned; for he is my guide, as I am guide to others.And 'tis thy counsel that hath brought this sickness on our State.For the altars of our city and of our hearths have been tainted, oneand all, by birds and dogs, with carrion from the hapless corpse,the son of Oedipus: and therefore the gods no more accept prayer andsacrifice at our hands, or the flame of meat-offering; nor doth anybird give a clear sign by its shrill cry, for they have tasted thefatness of a slain man's blood. Think, then, on these things, my son. All men are liable to err; butwhen an error hath been made, that man is no longer witless or unblestwho heals the ill into which he hath fallen, and remains not stubborn.Self-will, we know, incurs the charge of folly. Nay, allow the claimof the dead; stab not the fallen; what prowess
is it to slay the slainanew? I have sought thy good, and for thy good I speak: and neveris it sweeter to learn from a good counsellor than when he counselsfor thine own gain. CREON Old man, ye all shoot your shafts at me, as archers at thebutts;-Ye must needs practise on me with seer-craft also;-aye, theseer-tribe hath long trafficked in me, and made me their merchandise.Gain your gains, drive your trade, if ye list, in the silver-goldof Sardis and the gold of India; but ye shall not hide that man inthe grave,-no, though the eagles of Zeus should bear the carrion morselsto their Master's throne-no, not for dread of that defilement willI suffer his burial:-for well I know that no mortal can defile thegods.-But, aged Teiresias, the wisest fall with shameful fall, whenthey clothe shameful thoughts in fair words, for lucre's sake.TEIRESIAS Alas! Doth any man know, doth any consider...CREON Whereof? What general truth dost thou announce? TEIRESIAS How precious, above all wealth, is good
counsel.CREON As folly, I think, is the worst mischief. TEIRESIAS Yet thou art tainted with that distemper. CREON I would not answer the seer with a taunt. TEIRESIAS But thou dost, in saying that I prophesy falsely.CREON Well, the prophet-tribe was ever fond of money. TEIRESIAS And the race bred of tyrants loves base gain.CREON Knowest thou that thy speech is spoken of thy king?TEIRESIAS I know it; for through me thou hast saved Thebes.CREON Thou art a wise seer; but thou lovest evil deeds.TEIRESIAS Thou wilt rouse me to utter the dread secret in my soul.CREON Out with it!-Only speak it not for gain. TEIRESIAS Indeed, methinks, I shall not,-as touching thee.CREON Know that thou shalt not trade on my resolve. TEIRESIAS Then know thou-aye, know it well-that thou shalt not livethrough many more courses of the sun's swift chariot, ere one begottenof thine own loins shall have been given by thee, a corpse for corpses;because thou hast thrust children of the sunlight to the shades,
andruthlessly lodged a living soul in the grave; but keepest in thisworld one who belongs to the gods infernal, a corpse unburied, unhonoured,all unhallowed. In such thou hast no part, nor have the gods above,but this is a violence done to them by thee. Therefore the avengingdestroyers lie in wait for thee, the Furies of Hades and of the gods,that thou mayest be taken in these same ills. And mark well if I speak these things as a hireling. A time not longto be delayed shall awaken the wailing of men and of women in thyhouse. And a tumult of hatred against thee stirs all the cities whosemangled sons had the burial-rite from dogs, or from wild beasts, orfrom some winged bird that bore a polluting breath to each city thatcontains the hearths of the dead. Such arrows for thy heart-since thou provokest me-have I launchedat thee, archer-like, in my anger,-sure arrows, of which thou shaltnot escape the smart.-Boy, lead me home, that he may spend his rageon younger men, and learn to keep a
tongue more temperate, and tobear within his breast a better mind than now he bears. (The Boyleads TEIRESIAS Out.) LEADER OF THE CHORUS The man hath gone, O King, with dread prophecies.And, since the hair on this head, once dark, hath been white, I knowthat he hath never been a false prophet to our city. CREON I, too, know it well, and am troubled in soul. 'Tis dire toyield; but, by resistance, to smite my pride with ruin-this, too,is a dire choice. LEADER Son of Menoeceus, it behoves thee to take wise counsel.CREON What should I do then? Speak and I will obey. LEADER Go thou, and free the maiden from her rocky chamber, and makea tomb for the unburied dead. CREON And this is thy counsel? Thou wouldst have me yield?LEADER Yea, King, and with all speed; for swift harms from the godscut short the folly of men. CREON Ah me, 'tis hard, but I resign my cherished resolve,-I obey.We must not wage a vain war with destiny. LEADER Go, thou, and do these things; leave them not to others.CREON
Even as I am I'll go:-on, on, my servants, each and all ofyou,-take axes in your hands, and hasten to the ground that ye seeyonder! Since our judgment hath taken this turn, I will be presentto unloose her, as myself bound her. My heart misgives me, 'tis bestto keep the established laws, even to life's end. (CREON and hisservants hasten out on the spectators' left.) CHORUS (singing, strophe 1)O thou of many names, glory of the Cadmeian bride, offspring of loud-thunderingZeus! thou who watchest over famed Italia, and reignest, where allguests are welcomed, in the sheltered plain of Eleusinian Deo! O Bacchus,dweller in Thebe, mother-city of Bacchants, by the softly-glidingstream of Ismenus, on the soil where the fierce dragon's teeth weresown! (antistrophe 1)Thou hast been seen where torch-flames glare through smoke, abovethe crests of the twin peaks, where move the Corycian nymphs, thyvotaries, hard by Castalia's stream. Thou comest from the ivy-mantled slopes of Nysa's hills, and
fromthe shore green with many-clustered vines, while thy name is liftedup on strains of more than mortal power, as thou visitest the waysof Thebe: (strophe 2)Thebe, of all cities, thou holdest first in honour, thou and thymother whom the lightning smote; and now, when all our people is captiveto a violent plague, come thou with healing feet over the Parnassianheight, or over the moaning strait! (antistrophe 2)O thou with whom the stars rejoice as they move, the stars whosebreath is fire; O master of the voices of the night; son begottenof Zeus; appear, O king, with thine attendant Thyiads, who in night-longfrenzy dance before thee, the giver of good gifts, Iacchus! (EnterMESSENGER, on the spectators' left.) MESSENGER Dwellers by the house of Cadmus and of Amphion, there isno estate of mortal life that I would ever praise or blame as settled.Fortune raises and Fortune humbles the lucky or unlucky from day today, and no one can prophesy to men concerning those things whichare
established. For CREON was blest once, as I count bliss; he had saved this land ofCadmus from its foes; he was clothed with sole dominion in the land;he reigned, the glorious sire of princely children. And now all hathbeen lost. For when a man hath forfeited his pleasures, I count himnot as living,-I hold him but a breathing corpse. Heap up riches inthy house, if thou wilt; live in kingly state; yet, if there be nogladness therewith, I would not give the shadow of a vapour for allthe rest, compared with joy. LEADER OF THE CHORUS And what is this new grief that thou hast totell for our princes? MESSENGER Death; and the living are guilty for the dead.LEADER And who is the slayer? Who the stricken? Speak. MESSENGER Haemon hath perished; his blood hath been shed by no stranger.LEADER By his father's hand, or by his own? MESSENGER By his own, in wrath with his sire for the murder.LEADER O prophet, how true, then, hast thou proved thy word!MESSENGER These things stand thus; ye must
consider of the rest.LEADER Lo, I see the hapless Eurydice, Creon's wife, approaching;she comes from the house by chance, haply,-or because she knows thetidings of her son. (Enter EURYDICE from the palace.) EURYDICE People of Thebes, I heard your words as I was going forth,to salute the goddess Pallas with my prayers. Even as I was loosingthe fastenings of the gate, to open it, the message of a householdwoe smote on mine ear: I sank back, terror-stricken, into the armsof my handmaids, and my senses fled. But say again what the tidingswere; I shall hear them as one who is no stranger to sorrow.MESSENGER Dear lady, I will witness of what I saw, and will leaveno word of the truth untold. Why, indeed, should I soothe thee withwords in which must presently be found false? Truth is ever best.-Iattended thy lord as his guide to the furthest part of the plain,where the body of Polyneices, torn by dogs, still lay unpitied. Weprayed the goddess of the roads, and Pluto, in mercy to restrain
theirwrath; we washed the dead with holy washing; and with freshly-pluckedboughs we solemnly burned such relics as there were. We raised a highmound of his native earth; and then we turned away to enter the maiden'snuptial chamber with rocky couch, the caverned mansion of the brideof Death. And, from afar off, one of us heard a voice of loud wailingat that bride's unhallowed bower; and came to tell our master Creon.And as the king drew nearer, doubtful sounds of a bitter cry floatedaround him; he groaned, and said in accents of anguish, 'Wretchedthat I am, can my foreboding be true? Am I going on the wofullestway that ever I went? My son's voice greets me.-Go, my servants,-hasteye nearer, and when ye have reached the tomb, pass through the gap,where the stones have been wrenched away, to the cell's very mouth,-andlook. and see if 'tis Haemon's voice that I know, or if mine ear ischeated by the gods.' This search, at our despairing master's word, we went to make; andin the furthest
part of the tomb we descried her hanging by the neck,slung by a thread-wrought halter of fine linen: while he was embracingher with arms thrown around her waist, bewailing the loss of his bridewho is with the dead, and his father's deeds, and his own ill-starredlove. But his father, when he saw him, cried aloud with a dread cry andwent in, and called to him with a voice of wailing:-'Unhappy, whatdeed hast thou done! What thought hath come to thee? What manner ofmischance hath marred thy reason? Come forth, my child! I pray thee-Iimplore!' But the boy glared at him with fierce eyes, spat in hisface, and, without a word of answer, drew his cross-hilted sword:-ashis father rushed forth in flight, he missed his aim;-then, haplessone, wroth with himself, he straightway leaned with all his weightagainst his sword, and drove it, half its length, into his side; and,while sense lingered, he clasped the maiden to his faint embrace,and, as he gasped, sent forth on her pale cheek the swift
stream ofthe oozing blood. Corpse enfolding corpse he lies; he hath won his nuptial rites, pooryouth, not here, yet in the halls of Death; and he hath witnessedto mankind that, of all curses which cleave to man, ill counsel isthe sovereign curse. (EURYDICE retires into the house.)LEADER What wouldst thou augur from this? The lady hath turned back,and is gone, without a word, good or evil. MESSENGER I, too, am startled; yet I nourish the hope that, at thesesore tidings of her son, she cannot deign to give her sorrow publicvent, but in the privacy of the house will set her handmaids to mournthe household grief. For she is not untaught of discretion, that sheshould err. LEADER I know not; but to me, at least, a strained silence seemsto portend peril, no less than vain abundance of lament.MESSENGER Well, I will enter the house, and learn whether indeedshe is not hiding some repressed purpose in the depths of a passionateheart. Yea, thou sayest well: excess of silence, too, may have a
perilousmeaning. (The MESSENGER goes into the palace. Enter CREON, on thespectators' left, with attendants, carrying the shrouded body of HAEMONon bier. The following lines between CREON and the CHORUS are chantedresponsively.) CHORUS Lo, yonder the king himself draws near, bearing that whichtells too clear a tale,-the work of no stranger's madness,-if we maysay it,-but of his own misdeeds. CREON (strophe 1)Woe for the sins of a darkened soul, stubborn sins, fraught withdeath! Ah, ye behold us, the sire who hath slain, the son who hathperished! Woe is me, for the wretched blindness of my counsels! Alas,my son, thou hast died in thy youth, by a timeless doom, woe is me!-thyspirit hath fled,-not by thy folly, but by mine own! CHORUS (strophe 2)Ah me, how all too late thou seemest to see the right! CREON Ah me, I have learned the bitter lesson! But then, methinks,oh then, some god smote me from above with crushing weight, and hurledme into ways of cruelty, woe is me,-overthrowing and
trampling onmy joy! Woe, woe, for the troublous toils of men! (Enter MESSENGERfrom the house.) MESSENGER Sire, thou hast come, methinks, as one whose hands arenot empty, but who hath store laid up besides; thou bearest yonderburden with thee-and thou art soon to look upon the woes within thyhouse. CREON And what worse ill is yet to follow upon ills? MESSENGER Thy queen hath died, true mother of yon corpse-ah, haplesslady by blows newly dealt. CREON (antistrophe 1)Oh Hades, all-receiving whom no sacrifice can appease! Hast thou,then, no mercy for me? O thou herald of evil, bitter tidings, whatword dost thou utter? Alas, I was already as dead, and thou hast smittenme anew! What sayest thou, my son? What is this new message that thoubringest-woe, woe is me!-Of a wife's doom-of slaughter headed on slaughter?CHORUS Thou canst behold: 'tis no longer hidden within. (The doorsof the palace are opened, and the corpse of EURYDICE is disclosed.)CREON (antistrophe 2)Ah me,-yonder I behold a
new, a second woe! What destiny, ah what,can yet await me? I have but now raised my son in my arms,-and there,again, I see a corpse before me! Alas, alas, unhappy mother! Alas,my child! MESSENGER There, at the altar, self-stabbed with a keen knife, shesuffered her darkening eyes to close, when she had wailed for thenoble fate of Megareus who died before, and then for his fate wholies there,-and when, with her last breath, she had invoked evil fortunesupon thee, the slayer of thy sons. CREON (strophe 3)Woe, woe! I thrill with dread. Is there none to strike me to theheart with two-edged sword?-O miserable that I am, and steeped inmiserable anguish! MESSENGER Yea, both this son's doom, and that other's, were laidto thy charge by her whose corpse thou seest. CREON And what was the manner of the violent deed by which she passedaway? MESSENGER Her own hand struck her to the heart, when she had learnedher son's sorely lamented fate. CREON (strophe 4)Ah me, this guilt can never be fixed on
any other of mortal kind,for my acquittal! I, even I, was thy slayer, wretched that I am-Iown the truth. Lead me away, O my servants, lead me hence with allspeed, whose life is but as death! CHORUS Thy counsels are good, if there can be good with ills; briefestis best, when trouble is in our path. CREON (antistrophe 3)Oh, let it come, let it appear, that fairest of fates for me, thatbrings my last day,-aye, best fate of all! Oh, let it come, that Imay never look upon to-morrow's light. CHORUS These things are in the future; present tasks claim our care:the ordering of the future rests where it should rest. CREON All my desires, at least, were summed in that prayer.CHORUS Pray thou no more; for mortals have no escape from destinedwoe. CREON (antistrophe 4)Lead me away, I pray you; a rash, foolish man; who have slain thee,ah my son, unwittingly, and thee, too, my wife-unhappy that I am!I know not which way I should bend my gaze, or where I should seeksupport; for all is amiss with
that which is in my hands,-and yonder,again, a crushing fate hath leapt upon my head. (As CREON is beingconducted into the palace, the LEADER OF THE CHORUS speaks the closingverses.) LEADER Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness; and reverence towardsthe gods must be inviolate. Great words of prideful men are ever punishedwith great blows, and, in old age, teach the chastened to be wise.THE END










L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16357 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: The Senate is now in Session
--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" >
>
> My concern is merely that in both cases (and I'm not
> sure that I understand Quinctius Constantius'
> argument
> that there's a distinction between them) the Senate
> is
> effectively (and with no sinister motive) arrogating
> to itself the power to convene the assembly to vote
> on
> legislation, which was not a power it historically
> possessed or, I think, one which the constitution
> intends it to have.
>
>

My point was that there is a difference between the
Senate submitting something to the people in one of
the Comitia for their vote, and the Senate taking it
upon itself to legislate.

There may be some cases where it would be
appropriate for the Senate to act alone, but I see
that as a possiblity only in the Senate's capacity as
the Board of Directors in matters that touch upon Nova
Roma's corporate duties and liabilities.

However, the Senate has power to legislate in the
micronational affairs of Nova Roma subject to the
limitations in the Constitution. If the Senate were
to pass a Senatus Consultum, that consultum could be
subsequently overridden by edicts issued by a legally
appointed dictator or consuls acting under the senatus
consultum unltimum, laws passed by any one of the
comitia, or decrees passed by the Collegium
Pontificum, or the Collegium Augurum. A Senatus
Consulta could also become void by action of the
Tribunes through the intercessio process.

If the Senate merely proposes legislation but
leaves the ultimate decision to one of the comitia, it
will be the voting citizens of that comitia that will
make the unltimate decision, as they can approve or
reject the measure as they please.

Reading the Constitution as a whole I see no
provision that would allow a single magistrate, other
than a dictator or a consul appointed under the
Senatus consultum ultimum to override a decree of the
Senate by their own edict.

I hope this has calrified my reasoning rather than
clouding it further :)

Lucius Quintius Constantius



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16358 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:

> I do find it a shame that those who are willing to work for Nova
Roma (for free!) are 'rewarded'
> with the fact that they *must* pay in order to have that honor.


Salve Diana,

Unless one was lucky enough to be Consul and lead the legions into
battles that proved lucrative in the spoils of war department, and/or
secure a nice proconsular governorship in a wealthy province ripe for
the picking; politics in the Republic was always a drain on the
personal purse. The worse drain on the pocketbook was to be an
Aedile as one was expected to give superior games and public banquets
from ones own funds. The goal of course was to get the curule chair
and a "profitable war" to make up for all the money spent. Most of
the famous names of the Republic were almost always up to their
eyeballs in debt in order to finance their political careers.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16359 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:

> The worse drain on the pocketbook was to be an Aedile

That would explain why I've been earning so much and saving so little this
past year, yeah. (Actually had more to do with 20-something daughters and
their expenses, but hey, it's a good excuse.)

> The goal of course was to get the curule chair
> and a "profitable war" to make up for all the money spent.

What do you think? Monaco? A nice little expedition to pacify the Gauls
in Monaco?

-- Marinus (with tongue firmly in cheek)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16360 From: Neil Lucock Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
On Thursday 13 Nov 2003 4:16 pm, Trajan Justinian wrote:
> Thank you Aurelianus.
> I understand now.
> Wasn't one of the Flavii who was responsible for the coliseum?
> I know it was called the Flavian amphitheatre and supposedly was
> changed because of the very large (colosus) statues outside or
> something like that.
> Vale
Vespasian AD 69 to 79 rebuilt a lot of Roma after Nero left (there were
actually 4 Emperors in AD 69). I think the Collseum was finished by Titus,
his son.
Gaius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16361 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
Salve bene DMA!

While what you say is true, it is nevertheless authentic, at least in the early Empire (I am less familliar with Late Republican practice): Priesthhoods and Magistracies were not only unpaid positions in the early Empire, but the office holder was expected to pay for the expenses of their duties out of pocket!

They were expected to take up these burdens out of "Love of the Community". As the cost of Festivals and Office expenses kept going up, more people tried to avoid them (like the Plague!) by taking advantage of various Legal Exemptions!

Vale bene!
S.E. Mercurius Troianus


-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@...>
Sent: Nov 13, 2003 4:45 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Non Candidacy Announcement

<html><body>


<tt>
Salve dear brother Laureatus Moravius,<BR>
<BR>
> It seems I have not understood properly and since I did not pay my<BR>
> taxes for 2003 (so I am not an assidui today) I cannot run for office<BR>
> next year although I intended to pay taxes in 2004...<BR>
<BR>
If you pay now I think that you can run.<BR>
<BR>
I do find it a shame that those who are willing to work for Nova Roma (for free!) are 'rewarded'<BR>
with the fact that they *must* pay in order to have that honor.<BR>
<BR>
Vale,<BR>
your sis'<BR>
Diana Moravia<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16362 From: Gnostic Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: New Member
Salvete Galeriae!

I'm flattered, truly! Alas I have already submitted an Application. This is by no means in any way whatsoever to be taken as a slight to Gens Galeria - quite the contrary! You have all made me feel most welcomed, have been immensely helpful, and all of you it has been my pleasure to become acquainted with have been lively and intelligent correspondents! If Mater Helena is able to put together some of the get togethers she has planned, I really hope you will welcome my coming with you all!

However, my Citizenship Application bears the name: SERVIUS EQUITIUS MERCURIUS TROIANUS

It was a very difficult decision to make, but that is the choice that I finally made. I hope you don't hold it against me!!

As for my adoptia filio Traianus Iustinianus, he is free to make his own decision come April. Because he is located in New York, it is my personal recommendation that he check out Gens Cassia, but he IS free to decide on his own. You're free to offer Gens Galeria as his new familly, and I certainly won't object if he is interested! So by all means, let the lad know that you want him!

I shall forever remain a friend and ally of Gens Galeria!

Vale bene!
Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus

-----Original Message-----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Sent: Nov 13, 2003 5:57 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New Member

<html><body>


<tt>
F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to his cousin, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus.<BR>
<BR>
Yea, verily, good cousin.  We should encourage both Mercurius and Iustinian to commit to our worthy gens since they have both recognized the truth.  That is Gens Galeria live by the the ideals of service, piety, happiness, dignity, tomfoolery, and (possible) insobriety.  Let us invite them to come into the family fold by petition to our materfamilias, pray at the ancestral altars, give good service to the family and Republic, and get totally stinking cranked on some of the fine Falnerian wine from my province. May the gods grant you good health, good fortune, and conviviality.  Vale. <BR>
</tt>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16363 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis
Julilla Sempronia Magna civibus Novae Romae S.P.D.

I stand before you today (virtually, at least) wearing my stola and palla
candida, to present my candidacy for Tribuna Plebis for the year 2757 A.V.C.

I am XLVII years old, quite an elder by Republican standards, and I have
been a civa Novae Romae since A.D. XIV Kal. Aprilis 2753. I am very much a
populist, in keeping with my spiritual ancestors, Tiberius and Caius
Sempronius Gracchus, and I am dedicated to the virtues and ideals of Nova
Roma.

I have been active in many areas of Nova Roma, and my primary areas of
interest include the the Religio Romana, Latin, Republican history and
ancient Roman daily life. I serve Nova Roma currently as praetrix of
Provincia America Boreoccidentalis, as scriba to the censors and curator
araneum, and am accensa Consulem to senior consul Caeso Fabius
Quintillianus. I served as chief rogatrix in 2755 AVC, and am a member of
many sodalities.

If elected, my goals include:
I. To protect and defend the persons and the interests of my fellow cives
NovaRomani and the mission of Nova Roma, as provided in the Constitution and
according to the historical duties of the office.

II. To promote Plebeian gentes to prospective cives NovaRomani.
Thankfully, we have moved far beyond adversarial relations between
Patricians and Plebeians, but a stronger Plebeian identity is still needed.

III. To facilitate communications between the Senate, balancing
confidentiality with the public's right to know.
Multas gratias for taking the time to read my statement, and don't forget to
exercise your right to vote.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| http://www.villaivlilla.com/tribunaplebis.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16364 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis
Julilla Sempronia Magna [declared her candidacy for the Tribuneship]

Ah, Julilla, it's times like this I wish I were able to vote in the
Plebian elections. You are *such* a fine candidate for the job, and
as true a Sempronia as your spiritual forebearers. I feel sure that
right now the shades of Gaius, and Tiberius, and most especially of
Cornelia, are pleased and proud.

I wish you all good fortune, and hope to see you on the Tribune's
bench next year.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Curule Aedile
My Curule Aedile website is http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/ca.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16365 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
>
> > The worse drain on the pocketbook was to be an Aedile
>
> That would explain why I've been earning so much and saving so
little this
> past year, yeah. (Actually had more to do with 20-something
daughters and
> their expenses, but hey, it's a good excuse.)

You have 20 daughters? Either way I can't begin to imagine the
expense! At least in the good old days you could sell them to the
highest bidder. <G>


> > The goal of course was to get the curule chair
> > and a "profitable war" to make up for all the money spent.
>
> What do you think? Monaco? A nice little expedition to pacify the
Gauls
> in Monaco?

This time of year I was thinking someplace warm. Perhaps a pillage of
Disney.

Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16366 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2003-11-13
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
>
>>quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The worse drain on the pocketbook was to be an Aedile
>>
>>That would explain why I've been earning so much and saving so little this
>>past year, yeah. (Actually had more to do with 20-something daughters and
>>their expenses, but hey, it's a good excuse.)
>
> You have 20 daughters?

Smartarse.

No, I have two, both in their 20's. I can guarantee that there is no truth to
the notion that they don't cost their parents anything after they turn 18.

> Either way I can't begin to imagine the expense!

Robert A. Heinlein once wrote about Harshaw's Law: Any daughter can spend 10%
more than her father can make.

> At least in the good old days you could sell them to the
> highest bidder. <G>

Nice patrician girls. Good family. Lovely features. But alas, their poor
pater hasn't anywhere near the pile of sesterces to make a proper dowery. Not
that they'd be the least bit inclined to hook up with anyone they didn't choose
for themselves. Willful as Caesar's mother Aurelia, the both of them.

>>>The goal of course was to get the curule chair
>>>and a "profitable war" to make up for all the money spent.
>>
>>What do you think? Monaco? A nice little expedition to pacify the Gauls
>>in Monaco?
>
> This time of year I was thinking someplace warm. Perhaps a pillage of
> Disney.

I dunno... that'd mean invading either the neighboring province to the south if
I went after DisneyWorld. I might have some 'splainin to do to my fellow
propraetor. Maybe I could raise a few volunteer legions and march on Vegas?

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Curule Aedile
My Curule Aedile website is http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/ca.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16367 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
In a message dated 11/13/03 2:47:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gawne@... writes:


> What do you think? Monaco? A nice little expedition to pacify the Gauls
> in Monaco?
>

Hmm we are going to need money to raise legiones. Any temple treasuries
available?
We will pay back double what we took, after we are done sacking Monaco.

Q. Fabius Maximus
Tongue in cheek-err...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16368 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
In a message dated 11/13/03 6:22:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gawne@... writes:


> . Maybe I could raise a few volunteer legions and march on Vegas?
>
>

I don't think so, Equitius Marinus. We have the X, the IX, and the VI here
to defend the province. Granted they are down to Vexillationes because of the
Mesopotamian war, but I don't think they would have much trouble routing the
XX. The Palace of Caesar is under my protection. Go to Monaco instead. The
closest legio there is in Germania.

Q. Fabius Maximus
Proconsul CAL.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16369 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: New Tootal Station-Surveying in Pomepii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "New Tootal Station-Surveying in Pomepii":

http://www.csanet.org/newsletter/aug95/nl089506.html

This report, by H. Eiteljorg, II, appeared in the August 1995 volume
of the CSA Newsletter. For those interested in some of the more
technical details of the technology and their first applications in
Pompeii should also see

http://www.csanet.org/newsletter/nov94/nl119406.html

"AutoCAD Single-Photo Photogrammetry at Pompeii," also by H.
Eiteljorg, II, which appeared in the November 1994 issue of the CSA
Newsletter.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16370 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
You are correct. After the Great Fire of Rome, Emperor Nero was going to build his Aureus Domus palace but he was deposed before that could begin. After Otho, Galba, and Vitellius had all been eliminated, Flavius Vespanianus was emperor and began work on a stone amphitheatre to replace all of the earlier wooden ones. The Colisseum was completed for use in his life time (but underwent many modifications over the next 200 years) and was called the Flavian.

F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16371 From: Diana Moravia Aventina Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back :-)
Salvete all,

I am sure that some of you have declared their candidacies offlist to T Labienus Fortunatus. Come
on! Fess up! I'm curious to see who is running for Censor, Consul and Praetor!!
And when I post my candidacy (although if I could I would stay a Tribune for another year!) I'll
post it here-- promise :-)

Valete!
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16372 From: Gnaeus Salix Astur Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Absence
Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

I am leaving for Hispalis (Seville) this evening. I will return on
Sunday night. If you have to contact me for my official duties, please
contact my colleague instead.


=====
S.V.B.E.E.V
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS
Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más...
http://messenger.yahoo.es
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16373 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: End of Ludi Plebeian
L. Arminius Faustus Aedilis Plebis omnia plus salutat



It is a nostalgic time for me.

Ending the last Ludi of the year is sure an experience...

You have to forgive me the simplicity of these games, sure NR deserves more. But I still mourn the absence of the Junior Aedilis Plebis and Flaminem Cerealis. And raise a pray for the Gods, for Mother Ceres, that next year the aedilis plebis be even better than this one.


Anyway, may the gods be satisfied with our still few, still imperfect, still virtual, still late, still last ludi.


Valete,




L. Arminius Faustus

Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,

Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."

Iliad, Homer, book XX

The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16374 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Antigone - Ludi Plebeain theater
Only now, I´ve noticed, what a mess! Sorry!


Vale,
L. A. F.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
>
> AntigoneBy SophoclesTranslated by R. C. Jebb------------------------
----------------------------------------------Dramatis
Personaedaughters of Oedipus:ANTIGONEISMENECREON, King of
ThebesEURYDICE, his wifeHAEMON, his sonTEIRESIAS, the blind
prophetGUARD, set to watch the corpse of PolyneicesFIRST
MESSENGERSECOND MESSENGER, from the houseCHORUS OF THEBAN ELDERS------
----------------------------------------------------------------The
same as in Oedipus the King, an open space before the royal
palace,once that of Oedipus, at Thebes. The backscene represents the
frontof the palace, with three doors, of which the central and
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16375 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Julilla Sempronia Magna [declared her candidacy for the Tribuneship]
>
> Ah, Julilla, it's times like this I wish I were able to vote in the
> Plebian elections. You are *such* a fine candidate for the job, and
> as true a Sempronia as your spiritual forebearers. I feel sure that
> right now the shades of Gaius, and Tiberius, and most especially of
> Cornelia, are pleased and proud.
>
> I wish you all good fortune, and hope to see you on the Tribune's
> bench next year.
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> Curule Aedile
> My Curule Aedile website is http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/ca.html

Care amice,

Your warm words are all the support I'll need, and to be considered a
true Sempronia is particularly appreciated, as one of my greatest
aspirations is to revive that ancient and illustrious name
(www.villaivlilla.com/GensSempronia).

Gratias multas!

@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| http://www.villaivlilla.com/tribunaplebis.htm
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16376 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: New Member
--- Gnostic <hermeticagnosis@...> wrote:
> Salvete Galeriae!
>
> I'm flattered, truly! Alas I have already
> submitted an Application. This is by no means in
> any way whatsoever to be taken as a slight to Gens
> Galeria - quite the contrary! You have all made me
> feel most welcomed, have been immensely helpful, and
> all of you it has been my pleasure to become
> acquainted with have been lively and intelligent
> correspondents! If Mater Helena is able to put
> together some of the get togethers she has planned,
> I really hope you will welcome my coming with you
> all!
>
> However, my Citizenship Application bears the
> name: SERVIUS EQUITIUS MERCURIUS TROIANUS
>
Salve Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus.

I take it in casual conversation among friends you
would prefer to be addressed as Mercurius. I may be
wrong, please correct me if I am.

The Gens Equitia is lucky to have you. I am only
saddened by the fact that you have chosen a patrician
gens. I think you would have been a very valuable
addition to the discussion of the plebs had you chosen
to be of the plebeian order.



> It was a very difficult decision to make, but that
> is the choice that I finally made. I hope you don't
> hold it against me!!
>
> As for my adoptia filio Traianus Iustinianus, he
> is free to make his own decision come April.
> Because he is located in New York, it is my personal
> recommendation that he check out Gens Cassia, but he
> IS free to decide on his own. You're free to offer
> Gens Galeria as his new familly, and I certainly
> won't object if he is interested! So by all means,
> let the lad know that you want him!
>
>

I also look forward to Traianus Iustinianus
becoming a new citizen of Nova Roma and have enjoyed
his participation in the discussions so far.

Lucius Quintius Constantius

__________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16377 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: End of Ludi Plebeian
Salve Faustus, Amice,
congratulations for your ludi, they were funny and you have done a
good job. Thank you very much for your efforts, you're one of the
best citizen of our Res Publica.

Vale bene
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> L. Arminius Faustus Aedilis Plebis omnia plus salutat
>
>
>
> It is a nostalgic time for me.
>
> Ending the last Ludi of the year is sure an experience...
>
> You have to forgive me the simplicity of these games, sure NR
deserves more. But I still mourn the absence of the Junior Aedilis
Plebis and Flaminem Cerealis. And raise a pray for the Gods, for
Mother Ceres, that next year the aedilis plebis be even better than
this one.
>
>
> Anyway, may the gods be satisfied with our still few, still
imperfect, still virtual, still late, still last ludi.
>
>
> Valete,
>
>
>
>
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,
>
> Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.
>
> Visit my office at
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html
>
>
>
> "I too in words could fight even Immortals..."
>
> Iliad, Homer, book XX
>
> The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta
agora!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16378 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Salvete


By the way, did someone know where to find a map of
diagram depicting the Domus Aurea of Nero? I know that
it was an immense building, partly demolished and
partly buried by the Thermae Traiani. The best that i
could find is in the article below.

http://www.ku.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/.Texts/PLATOP*/Thermae_Trajani.html


Vale
M.Arminius


--- PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... escreveu: > You are
correct. After the Great Fire of Rome,
> Emperor Nero was going to build his Aureus Domus
> palace but he was deposed before that could begin.
> After Otho, Galba, and Vitellius had all been
> eliminated, Flavius Vespanianus was emperor and
> began work on a stone amphitheatre to replace all of
> the earlier wooden ones. The Colisseum was
> completed for use in his life time (but underwent
> many modifications over the next 200 years) and was
> called the Flavian.
>
> F Gal Aur Sec


______________________________________________________________________

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16379 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Call for Candidate for Aedilis Plebis
Salvete Quirites!

It is now less than two months left of the year and it falls to the
senate to fill vacant magistracies. My Colleague has already called
for a candidate for the position as a Aedilis Plebis suffectus. No
one has presented himself or herself, therefore I hereby once again
call for a candidate to serve for the remainder of the year as an
Aedilis Plebis suffectus.

Qualified candidates will be placed on the coming senate agenda.
Observe that serving in these positions will make you ineligible to
be elected in the regular elections for next year's magistrates.

Cives wishing to stand for these positions should contact the Consuls
at consuls@...
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16380 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Salvete,
Sounds like rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, lol.
I noticed in the postings for elections the term Plebian and was
researching the word but couldn't find out where in the NR pages it
could be found other than Gens names where there are Plebians and
Patricians. It's funny that I was just researching the distinction
between the two classes when up pops a post from Constantius to
Mercurius (coincidence?).
I found info on the web about social classes - Patrician, Plebian,
Freedman, Slave.
From my understanding it is not a caste type system because you can
change your Roman Class.
What is the significance within Nova Roma regarding the classes (I
know NR is different than Old Roma because there are no slaves or
freedmen and women are not treated less then men) ?
Valete,
Justinian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16381 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: A Roman Joke
Salvete everyone,
Just taking a small break from sholarly persuits of Rome to post a
real (real lame, that is) Roman Joke I came across.
I hope it isn't too out of place.
Justinian

A man from the provinces shows up at Rome and causes remark by his
striking resemblance to the emperor. Eventually he is taken before
the emperor, who is amazed. "Let me see," says the emperor, "where
did you say you were from? I'm trying to figure whether my father
ever visited your home town." "No, he didn't," says the
stranger, "but my father used to visit Rome all the time." - From the
second book of Macrobius Saturnalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16382 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Thank you Giaus,
I remember seeing a very good Discovery, History or Learning channel
documentary on it but I am bad with names and dates.
Justinian

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Neil Lucock <neil.lucock@z...>
wrote:
> On Thursday 13 Nov 2003 4:16 pm, Trajan Justinian wrote:
> > Thank you Aurelianus.
> > I understand now.
> > Wasn't one of the Flavii who was responsible for the coliseum?
> > I know it was called the Flavian amphitheatre and supposedly was
> > changed because of the very large (colosus) statues outside or
> > something like that.
> > Vale
> Vespasian AD 69 to 79 rebuilt a lot of Roma after Nero left (there
were
> actually 4 Emperors in AD 69). I think the Collseum was finished by
Titus,
> his son.
> Gaius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16383 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
--- Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
> Sounds like rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief,
> lol.
> I noticed in the postings for elections the term
> Plebian and was
> researching the word but couldn't find out where in
> the NR pages it
> could be found other than Gens names where there are
> Plebians and
> Patricians. It's funny that I was just researching
> the distinction
> between the two classes when up pops a post from
> Constantius to
> Mercurius (coincidence?).
> I found info on the web about social classes -
> Patrician, Plebian,
> Freedman, Slave.

Salve Trajan Justinian

Your web source failed to mention another order,
the equestrians (sometimes translated as knights)
which were wealthy Romans, but not so wealthy as the
senatorial class. The equestrians were the basic
commercial class (as the senators were prohibited from
engaging in commerce). During the Imperial period
sons of Senators were automatically considered
equestrians until they became members of the Senate
after they turned 25 and have exercised some military
and public offices already (I do not know if the same
is true of Republican period).

> From my understanding it is not a caste type system
> because you can
> change your Roman Class.
> What is the significance within Nova Roma regarding
> the classes (I
> know NR is different than Old Roma because there are
> no slaves or
> freedmen and women are not treated less then men) ?
> Valete,
> Justinian
>
I would say under the current Nova Roman system,
the orders only determine what types of offices within
Nova Roma are available to you. There are some
offices open only to patricians under the Nova Roman
constitution (Interrex and four of the Augurs), while
only plebeians are members of the Comitia Plebis
Tributa and eligible for the offices of Tribunis
Plebis (tribune of the plebs) or plebeian aedile.

Plus within Nova Roma only the members of the
Equestrian Order may engage in commerce that is
granted official recognition by Nova Roma.

It is also true that in Nova Roma it is possible to
switch from patrician to plebeian status or vice-versa
by going through the process of changing gens. Plus
the censors have the authority if a patrician gens is
vacant to elevate a plebeian gens to patrician status.
I do not know if the censors have ever used that
power.

I assume that since the patrician gens are the first
thirty gens that joined Nova Roma in such a situation
the censors would elevate the oldest plebeian gens to
patrician status. I also assume that would be done
only with the consent of the gens (or pater/mater)
involved.

Lucius Quintius Constantius

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16384 From: politicog Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Twelve Tables -- Table I, Law VI
Law VI.

The defender, or the surety of a wealthy man, must
himself be rich; but anyone who desires to do so can
come to the assistance of a person who is poor, and
occupy his place.

------------------------------------------------------

Lucius Quintius Constantius


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16385 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Salve Constantius
And thank you very much, I understand it now.
This is definately something to consider before choosing a Gens to
apply to if there is a political or official position of possible
interest.
Vale,
Justinian


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Trajan Justinian <harrituspotterus1@y...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete,
> > Sounds like rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief,
> > lol.
> > I noticed in the postings for elections the term
> > Plebian and was
> > researching the word but couldn't find out where in
> > the NR pages it
> > could be found other than Gens names where there are
> > Plebians and
> > Patricians. It's funny that I was just researching
> > the distinction
> > between the two classes when up pops a post from
> > Constantius to
> > Mercurius (coincidence?).
> > I found info on the web about social classes -
> > Patrician, Plebian,
> > Freedman, Slave.
>
> Salve Trajan Justinian
>
> Your web source failed to mention another order,
> the equestrians (sometimes translated as knights)
> which were wealthy Romans, but not so wealthy as the
> senatorial class. The equestrians were the basic
> commercial class (as the senators were prohibited from
> engaging in commerce). During the Imperial period
> sons of Senators were automatically considered
> equestrians until they became members of the Senate
> after they turned 25 and have exercised some military
> and public offices already (I do not know if the same
> is true of Republican period).
>
> > From my understanding it is not a caste type system
> > because you can
> > change your Roman Class.
> > What is the significance within Nova Roma regarding
> > the classes (I
> > know NR is different than Old Roma because there are
> > no slaves or
> > freedmen and women are not treated less then men) ?
> > Valete,
> > Justinian
> >
> I would say under the current Nova Roman system,
> the orders only determine what types of offices within
> Nova Roma are available to you. There are some
> offices open only to patricians under the Nova Roman
> constitution (Interrex and four of the Augurs), while
> only plebeians are members of the Comitia Plebis
> Tributa and eligible for the offices of Tribunis
> Plebis (tribune of the plebs) or plebeian aedile.
>
> Plus within Nova Roma only the members of the
> Equestrian Order may engage in commerce that is
> granted official recognition by Nova Roma.
>
> It is also true that in Nova Roma it is possible to
> switch from patrician to plebeian status or vice-versa
> by going through the process of changing gens. Plus
> the censors have the authority if a patrician gens is
> vacant to elevate a plebeian gens to patrician status.
> I do not know if the censors have ever used that
> power.
>
> I assume that since the patrician gens are the first
> thirty gens that joined Nova Roma in such a situation
> the censors would elevate the oldest plebeian gens to
> patrician status. I also assume that would be done
> only with the consent of the gens (or pater/mater)
> involved.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16386 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: End of Ludi Plebeian
Colleague, your kind words for me are like the golden rain of Iove
that made Danae pregnant!

I think all Collegium Aediles is to be praised. I remeber on the
starting of the year, we were making a ´common agenda´ of Ludi...

... and we completed all!

We all know how hard is working on NR when all ´non-roman life´
stuffs are pressing the issue... factories, colleges, offices and we
still are getting time to here.

There is no bigger glory than doing your work, not spetacular, but on
right terms.

None here is Romulo, none here is Camilo, none here is Fabius
Cuntactus, none here is Cicero, none here is Augustus to ´erect the
city´ or even ´re-erect the city on marble´...

But we are doing our small work... everytime...

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeian Aedile

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> Salve Faustus, Amice,
> congratulations for your ludi, they were funny and you have done a
> good job. Thank you very much for your efforts, you're one of the
> best citizen of our Res Publica.
>
> Vale bene
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Senior Curule Aedile
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > L. Arminius Faustus Aedilis Plebis omnia plus salutat
> >
> >
> >
> > It is a nostalgic time for me.
> >
> > Ending the last Ludi of the year is sure an experience...
> >
> > You have to forgive me the simplicity of these games, sure NR
> deserves more. But I still mourn the absence of the Junior Aedilis
> Plebis and Flaminem Cerealis. And raise a pray for the Gods, for
> Mother Ceres, that next year the aedilis plebis be even better than
> this one.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, may the gods be satisfied with our still few, still
> imperfect, still virtual, still late, still last ludi.
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > L. Arminius Faustus
> >
> > Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,
> >
> > Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.
> >
> > Visit my office at
> http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> > "I too in words could fight even Immortals..."
> >
> > Iliad, Homer, book XX
> >
> > The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Mail - 6MB, anti-spam e antivírus gratuito. Crie sua conta
> agora!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16387 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
politicog wrote:

> the censors have the authority if a patrician gens is
> vacant to elevate a plebeian gens to patrician status.
> I do not know if the censors have ever used that
> power.

It has been. Gens Minucia began as plebian and was elevated
to the patrician order.

-- Gn. Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16388 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/13/03 6:22:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> gawne@... writes:
>
> > . Maybe I could raise a few volunteer legions and march on Vegas?
>
> I don't think so, Equitius Marinus. We have the X, the IX, and the VI here
> to defend the province. Granted they are down to Vexillationes because of the
> Mesopotamian war, but I don't think they would have much trouble routing the
> XX.

Y'know, dear colleague, if I were to forward that to the Primus Pilus of
the XX he just might take it as a personal challenge. Never mind that we
also have XXIV and V here in the province of Mediatlantica, and they just
might feel the need to go open a can of whupass in support of their west
coast counterparts. However, like your legions, mine are also sadly
depleted right now due to deployments in Mesopotamia.

> The Palace of Caesar is under my protection. Go to Monaco instead. The
> closest legio there is in Germania.

I have a better idea. How about we combine our forces and put together
an amphibious raid of Macau?

-- Marinus (with tongue *QUITE* firmly in cheek)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16389 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Names, names, and names
Actually, the best illustrated book is (in my opinion) by Peter Connolly THE CITY: ROME AND ATHENS IN THE CLASSICAL AGE. It combines many of the fine illustrations from his other works on Greece and Rome with more current work. The section on Rome begins in earnest during the age of Augustus and ends about the reign of Hadrian. Most public libraries have it but if your's doesn't, you can probably get it through InterLibrary Loan at you local library.

F Gal Aur Sec
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16390 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
The difference between the Patricians and the Plebians in NR is very simple. The Patricians are allowed to have some extra points, run for a couple of offices (like Censor or Consul), and get to preen a bit about their nobility. Meanwhile the Plebian assemblies and tribunes get to make all the real decisions, call for all the voting, run for all the truly meaningful offices (except for Curator Differum and Arcanem, which are so much like real work a Patrician would never run for those anyway), and pronounce intercessio when any of the Patricians start to believe they are running things. So it basically breaks down to the old adage, "Do you want to talk to the Patrician consul or would you rather speak with the Plebian tribune (accensus, curator, aedile, rogator, quaestor et cetera) that knows what is actually going on?"

F Gal Aur Sec (ROTFLMAO)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16391 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
Salve DEAR Cousin

I had to get off the floor in order to response to this YOU ARE TOO MUCH FUNNY VERY FUNNY!!!!!!!


Your cus

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.


The difference between the Patricians and the Plebians in NR is very simple. The Patricians are allowed to have some extra points, run for a couple of offices (like Censor or Consul), and get to preen a bit about their nobility. Meanwhile the Plebian assemblies and tribunes get to make all the real decisions, call for all the voting, run for all the truly meaningful offices (except for Curator Differum and Arcanem, which are so much like real work a Patrician would never run for those anyway), and pronounce intercessio when any of the Patricians start to believe they are running things. So it basically breaks down to the old adage, "Do you want to talk to the Patrician consul or would you rather speak with the Plebian tribune (accensus, curator, aedile, rogator, quaestor et cetera) that knows what is actually going on?"

F Gal Aur Sec (ROTFLMAO)


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16392 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...>
wrote:

> Robert A. Heinlein once wrote about Harshaw's Law: Any daughter can
spend 10%
> more than her father can make.

Hehehe. Sounds like my sister-in-law and sister. I'm afraid to give
gifts lest my poor brother and brother-in-law be forced to redecorate
their entire homes to match. If I gave them bath towels and the color
didn't quite match the bathroom they'd have to spring for new
curtains, wallpaper, ect. And since the bathroom was just redone it
makes the hall carpet look old and since.......

>
> I dunno... that'd mean invading either the neighboring province to
the south if
> I went after DisneyWorld. I might have some 'splainin to do to my
fellow
> propraetor. Maybe I could raise a few volunteer legions and march
on Vegas?

Now that's not a bad idea. Call it liberating Caeser's Palace?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16393 From: Trajan Justinian Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Patrician, Plebian, Freedman, Slave.
My dearest F Gal Aur Sec ,
Your killing me!
You got me in stitches, doubled over laughing.
Do you write comedy for a living or is this just a hobby, lol.
Thanks for the very colorful definition and I hope the Patricians
laugh along with me and find the humor good natured.
Vale bene and still laughing,
Justinian


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> The difference between the Patricians and the Plebians in NR is
very simple. The Patricians are allowed to have some extra points,
run for a couple of offices (like Censor or Consul), and get to preen
a bit about their nobility. Meanwhile the Plebian assemblies and
tribunes get to make all the real decisions, call for all the voting,
run for all the truly meaningful offices (except for Curator Differum
and Arcanem, which are so much like real work a Patrician would never
run for those anyway), and pronounce intercessio when any of the
Patricians start to believe they are running things. So it basically
breaks down to the old adage, "Do you want to talk to the Patrician
consul or would you rather speak with the Plebian tribune (accensus,
curator, aedile, rogator, quaestor et cetera) that knows what is
actually going on?"
>
> F Gal Aur Sec (ROTFLMAO)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16394 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Digest Number 913
Lucius Equitius Quiritibus SPD

Cincinnatus: I'm pleased to welcome Mercurius to Nova Roma and Gens Equitia.

However, my Citizenship Application bears the name: SERVIUS EQUITIUS
MERCURIUS TROIANUS

It was a very difficult decision to make, but that is the choice that I
finally made. I hope you don't hold it against me!!
<SNIP>
I shall forever remain a friend and ally of Gens Galeria!

Cincinnatus: Friends and Allies are good. The more the merrier.

Vale bene!
Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus

________________________________________________________________________

Cincinnatus: I cannot recommend Julillia Sempronia highly enough.
Last year during the second year of my term as Censor, and even before that,
she was a very valued and dependable Scriba. She did, and does a great
service 'behind the scenes" on the website too.
I very much look forward to meeting her in person one day.

I too regret not having the opportunity to give her my vote.
At any rate, I offer her my whole hearted support.

Optimus Fortunam volo

Valete

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:29:28 -0500
From: Bill Gawne <gawne@...>
Subject: Re: Declaration of Candidacy, Tribuna Plebis

Julilla Sempronia Magna [declared her candidacy for the Tribuneship]

Ah, Julilla, it's times like this I wish I were able to vote in the
Plebian elections. You are *such* a fine candidate for the job, and
as true a Sempronia as your spiritual forebearers. I feel sure that
right now the shades of Gaius, and Tiberius, and most especially of
Cornelia, are pleased and proud.

I wish you all good fortune, and hope to see you on the Tribune's
bench next year.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Curule Aedile
My Curule Aedile website is http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/ca.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16395 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: The Senate is now in Session
A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Quinctius Constantius and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> My point was that there is a difference between the
> Senate submitting something to the people in one of
> the Comitia for their vote, and the Senate taking it
> upon itself to legislate.

I quite agree, as I do with your next paragraphs,
which I omit here.

> If the Senate merely proposes legislation but
> leaves the ultimate decision to one of the comitia,
> it will be the voting citizens of that comitia that
> will make the unltimate decision, as they can
> approve or reject the measure as they please.

This is also quite true, but my point is that it is
neither historically nor legally appropriate for the
Senate to possess the power to put proposals directly
to the people.

I must point out also that under our current legal
arrangments it would be possible for the senate not
only to put proposals to the people but also to compel
the people to vote in favour of them, at least in
point of law though of course not in reality.

> Reading the Constitution as a whole I see no
> provision that would allow a single magistrate,
> other than a dictator or a consul appointed under
> the Senatus consultum ultimum to override a decree
> of the Senate by their own edict.

This is precisely the problem. Historically a
magistrate could overrule the senate by edict. If this
were possible under our constitution, there would be
no danger of the senate acquiring the de facto power
to promulgate legislation.

Do you see what I mean?

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16396 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Julius Caesar & his country (WAS: Julius Caesar T-Shirt)
A. Apollonius Cordus to Curator Ti. Galerius Paulinus
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> You can not be the only one to obey the rules
> especially when nobody else is .
> It a quick way to get yourself killed, something
> Caesar would never allow. Rome
> was far less democratic than you suggest and had
> been trailing down a slippery
> slope for sometime.

I'm afraid you're exaggerating. It's utterly incorrect
to say that none of Caesar's contemporaries were
obeying the law of the republic. Nor do I accept that
Caesar's choices were limited to marching on Rome or
being killed. He could quite easily have done neither.

> The Oligarch's were not upholding the constitution
> they were hanging on to absolute control of the
> Roman Republic come hell or high water. Their view
> seems to have been we are in charge or nobody is.

Would you be so kind as to name the individuals, apart
from Caesar, who you say were in breach of the law?
It's very hard to have a serious historical discussion
without talking about specifics.

> You further state that
>
> "The use of force to reform an autocratic or
> authoritarian state may be justifiable; I do not
> see how the use of force to reform a democratic
> state can ever be justified."
>
> In July 1776 the Americans compromised on the issue
> of slavery in order to get a unanimous vote for
> independence from Great Britain. They compromised
> again with the constitutional convention and the
> 3/5th compromise to establish the national
> government. They again compromised in 1820 and 1850
> again over slavery The American system fell down
> between 1861 and 1865 because their was nothing left
> to compromise.
>
> Force was necessary and justified to compel one
> part of the democratic USA to comply with the laws
> of the democratically elected national government.

I agree that it's appropriate for a democratic state
to use force to compel its citizens to obey the law.
This is quite the opposite of one of its citizens
using force against the state. To use the words of my
above comment, the example you cite from American
history is not the use of force to reform a democratic
state, it was the use of force by the democratic state
to enforce its laws. The two scenarios are not
remotely comparable.

________________________________________________________________________
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Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16397 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Statement of candidacy
A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I should like to offer my candidacy for the post of
rogator.

Not wishing to make a lengthy speech, I'll just tell
you that I have served as assistant to Consul Fabius
Quintilianus and to Praetor Salix Astur and have
gained much valuable experience in doing so; that if I
elected I shall perform my duties diligently and
efficiently; and that, whether elected or not, I shall
continue to study our electoral system in theory and
practice and to work for and argue for any
improvements possible.

If anyone wants to know more about my 'manifesto',
such as it is, he or she is welcome to ask me in
private or in public.

________________________________________________________________________
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Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16398 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Non Candidacy Announcement
A. Apollonius Cordus to Cornelius Moravius Laureatus
Armoricus and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

I'm sorry to hear that you won't be able to stand for
quaestor this year - it's a loss for all of us, and I
hope I'll get the chance to vote for you next time.

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16399 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: Statement of candidacy
A. Apollonius Cordus [declared for Rogator]

I think you'll make an excellent rogator, Cordus. I look forward to
voting for you. You've been a mainstay in the Consul's office of
law and politics this year.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Curule Aedile
My Curule Aedile website is http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/ca.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16400 From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: NovAroma
Salvete Omnes,
my friend Marcus Iulius Perusianus posted me a very funny mail ...
we have an official sugar?! ;-)

http://www.novaresezuccheri.com/ is the official website of an
italian sugar industry.
Visit the website, click the button Products and after the button
NOVAROMA on the top ... suprise!
NovAroma means in english "Novarese Taste" or a word-game like "New
Taste".

:-P

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16401 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Re: End of Ludi Plebeian
Salve Lucius Arminius Faustus!

& such good work it has been! You continue to impress with the good work that you are doing!

Vale bene!
Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16402 From: Legion XXIV Date: 2003-11-14
Subject: Vicesima Quarta Newsletter Oct-Nov 2003
VICESIMA QUARTA - NEWSLETTER
OCTOBER - NOVEMBER 2003
LEGION XXIV MEDIA ATLANTIA
Defending the Frontiers of Ancient Rome
in the Mid-Atlantic Province of North America

Gallio Velius Marsallas
George W. Metz Praefectus / Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073
legionxxiv@... 610-353-4982
www.legionxxiv.org

John Ebel, Summa Palus, Lead Gladiator
Box 2146 - East Hampton, NY 11937
631-329-2430 home 800-926-2306 office
gladius1@...

Avete et Salutatio Commilitones

The Legion is now entering a quiet time, as we return to
"winter quarters" to repair equipment, improve our individual
personas and prepare for the upcoming Spring Campaigns.

ADVENAE - (Newcomers)
*** Fred and Greg Wojick of Salisbury and Salem, MA; have
come on board. Fred (Flavius Octavius Servius) is in law enforcement, havocbadge@... and owns a gym in
Peabody, MA. He has a Centurion outfit and his brother, Greg
(Gallus Octavius Oppius) is ready to fight as a legionary.
They both plan on being at the Nashville Event in March-2004.
We welcome them with "open arms" two Romani ready to engage
in the defense of Rome.
*** Kim Piersanti (Spurius Rufus Tyranus) ragnarr1001@...
is a SCA heavy weapons fighter (12 years in the ranks) and is
squired to an East Kingdom Knight. While he continues to enjoy his medieval life, as "Ragnarr" in the Barony of Settmour Swamp in
the Canton of Gryphonwald, he has also become interested in the
Roman Way of Life. If we can convert him from his barbarian ways,
he will be a valuable addition to our ranks.
*** Andrew Moscato (Primus Sallustrius Victor) praetorianguard@... comes to us from Baltimore, MD.
As his e-mail suggests, he plans to be a praetorian guard, a welcome and different style of Roman military impression for our
Legion's ranks.
*** Brian Calabrese (pipspriller@...) is all psyched up
about being a Roman legionary. He is from Runnemede, NJ
and turned out for a Greek fun video shoot.
*** Anthony Rowley (Antonius Velius Germanicus) gsardawg@... is from Lansdowne, PA, just a few miles
from the Commander's castra. We certainly expect to have him
with us at our future events. He has joined NovaRoma as a
member of our Gens Velius.
*** Anudeep Dharkar (Cassius Velius Sparticus/Brutus) adhakar@..., is from the far off province if Illinois, has
become a member of our NovaRoma Gens Velius Family.
He is a student and is interested in history and hopes to get involved
in reenactment. He look forward to having him with us at our western campaigns in Ohio and Ontario.

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

NASHVILLE MOVIE SHOOT AND ROMAN FEST
Sat. Sun. & Mon - March 27, 28, 29 - 2004.
Further information, clarifications and Registration Form.
The following is from Gary Barbosa, producer of the event.
Now that we made our minimum requirements, registration for the event will be open until the event on the last weekend in March 2004. However, the earlier the registration the better we are able to book the necessary rooms. The Parks department will not let anyone camp at the site, even though we need everyone who has a suitable Roman style canvas or leather tent to bring one for us to set up a Roman camp for the spectators. We will be paying the park for 24 hours security at the event.
As of today we have 43 Legionaires, 36 Citizens, 16 Gladiators, 5 Senators, 5 children, 5 Centurions, and 1 Emperor registered. "OVER 100 ROMANS." We encourage all of you to recruit more re-enactors or use this event to build your squads.

If you have not received any Nashville updates direct from Gary
Barbosa and Champion One Productions since Nov.1st, they do
not have a good e-mail address for you!
Send an e-mail to gbarbosa@... with your correct
e-mail address. You will not receive any updates if they cannot
contact you via e-mail.

The City of Nashville, Tennessee and Champion One Productions
is sponsoring a Roman Reenactment Festival in conjunction with
the shooting of a feature film trailer on the grounds surrounding the
replica of the Greek Parthenon, a giant edifice based on how the actual Parthenon in Athens, Greece, looked in its full glory in ancient
times, with a 40 foot gilded statue of Athena in the main sanctuary.

The Festival and Filming will take place on Sat. Sun. & Mon -
March 27, 28, 29 - 2004.
One day will be for outdoor shooting and another day will be
devoted to mostly inside shooting. The last day or one in between
will be a reenactor's event hosted by the City of Nashville.
There will be THOUSANDS of spectators. Romans, If you want to
show your stuff, this is the time to do it!

The producers are ardent Roma-philes, as we are, and are trying to make this an annual "All-Roman" event. This could be the beginning
of some real recognition and effective publicity for Roman
reenacting in the USA.
Hotel accommodations for Saturday and Sunday Nights will be provided to participating reenactors.

Complete the form below or send the required information to him
at the addresses below. Be sure to include photos of yourself in
your outfit alone with a copy of your driver's license!
You may black-out the your operator number if you wish.
So, set those dates aside, polish your armor, have your hair set and nails manicured! -
And be ready for your "Close-Up" in March in Nashville!


ROMAN REENACTOR FESTIVAL AND
FEATURE FILM TRAILER REGISTRATION FORM

Location: Parthenon, Nashville, TN
Date: Sat. Sun. Mon. March 27,28,29, 2004

NAME ____________________________________________

ADDR _____________________________________________

CITY-ZIP ___________________________________________

PHONE ______________________ FAX_________________

E-MAIL ____________________________________________

Portrayal - circle one or more - picture needed for each costume

Legionary-Soldier Senator Citizen Gladiator Praetorian-Guard

Centurion Signifer-Vexillifer

Other _______________________________________________

Attach copy of Drivers License Required for Registration.

Notes and further information _____________________________

____________________________________________________

____________________________________________________

Mail, Fax or E-Mail to Gary Barbosa, Champion One Productions
Suite 185, Palm Harbor FL 34685
727-787-2158 Fax 727-787-8476 gbarbosa@...
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

Kenneth Scriboni and William Murphy, two new recruits, are
actively working on getting their kits in order. They have their
caligae, tunics and other gear and have ordered belt plates and
fittings for their cingulum belts and the Commander will be assisting
them in making them up.
How are You making out getting your kit together.
An inquiring Commander Wants to Know!
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

The Commander is close to becoming a Centurion! He has
assembled his phalerae chest harness, has the proper helmet
and crest, lorica hamata and cingulum. Greaves and a subarmilis
with pteruges should complete the outfit. He hopes to turn-out as
a Centurion for the Nashville event. To see him and get more details about centurions, consult the Legion's new webpage www.legionxxiv.org/centurionpage

UPCOMING EVENTS
November 14 Legionary Demonstration & Lecture, Academy of
New Church, Bryn Athen, PA

December 10 Six classroom demonstrations at the Valley Forge
Military Academy, the Commander's Alma Mater.

December 12 Legionary Demonstration and Lecture,
Bala Cynwyd Middle School, PA

December 12-13 Fri-Sat, Bethlehem Market Place Advent Program,
Christ UMC, 2900 Springfield Road, Broomall, PA 6PM - 9PM.

March 27,28,29, Nashville Roman Festival and Filming Event.

June 12-13 Roman Days at Marietta Mansion, Glen Dale, MD

Check our Website. It has links to other reenactment Roman Legions worldwide,
Historical Sources and Suppliers. Pages deal with Standards & Guidelines,
Equipment, Weapons and Armor. Extensive Timeline, Glossary and Photo
Gallery Thru Time. Other pages deal with the History of Rome and its Legions,
Gladiatorial Combat and the Colosseum. Check it Out!

Thanking you for your interest in Legion XXIV,

I manere in Viresium et Honorare
I remain in Strength and Honor

(take your pick)
Tuus in Sodalicio Romanae Republica
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Tuus in Sodalicio Romanae Imperi
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Empire

Gallio / George



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 16403 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2003-11-15
Subject: Proyecto Carteia
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Proyecto Carteia":

http://www.ffil.uam.es/carteia/indice_carteia.htm

The site presents an overview of archaeological investigation of the
Punic-Roman city of Carteia (San Roque, Cádiz) under the auspices of
the Consejería de Cultura, Junta de Anadalucía. The site is in
Spanish, but can also be viewed via Altavista's Babelfish machine
translation facility (with the usual caveats about machine
translation) at http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus