In a message dated 1/10/04 1:48:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
scriba_forum@... writes:

> "During the latter period of the republic, when the office of
> Quaestor held immediately before that of Tribune, the tribunes were
> generally elected from among the Senators and this continued to be the same
> under the Empire" (appian.deBell.Civ.i.100

This was post Sullan, when Quaestors were admitted to the Senate. That fact
was already pointed out in an earlier post. Of course this was just to ensure
that the Oligarchic Senate
had control of the Tribunate. The power (Tribunica Potestas) was given to
the Dictator I believe in 48 BCE, then again to Octavius in 23 BCE. (I was
studying Octavius recently.) However, he was pretty much running things by 30 BCE,
making himself the Peoples' Protector and abolishing the reason for the
People' s Tribunate. Military Tribunes of course continued.

I have to get back on the floor. More on this later.

Valete
Q Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem IV Idus Ianuarii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem III Idus Ianuarii; the day is nefastus publicus
and the feriae of Carmentalia and Iuturnae. The Carmentalia was a
two-day festival (the second day was observed on ante diem XVIII
Kalendae Februarii) in honour of teh Goddess of childbirth and
prophecy Carmentis. Prayers to Her invoke the Carmentes -- the
Goddesses Porrima and Postverta, who preside at head-first and
feet-first deliveries, respectively. Ovid and Macrobius saw these
Goddesses as dealing with destiny and associated them with Ianus. The
Flamen Carmentalis sacrificed at the shrine of Carmenta at the Porta
Carmentalis near the Capitoline. Most Roman feriae are on what we
would call odd-numbered days and are frequently separated by a day or
more because it was thought particularly propitious. The Iuturnae is
the anniversary of the dedication of the temple of Iuturna, Goddess of
fountains, running waters, and prophetic waters; the temple was
located near the Aqua Virgo aqueduct in the Campus Martius.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Romans in Scotland":

http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/museum/romans/romans.html

This site is an exhibition of the Hunterian Museum in Glascow.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

AVETE OMNES

> I think that you were asking whether the scale used by the Romans

was

> a pentatonic scale (a scale that only uses five tones instead of

the

> seven tones of the natural scales).

<snip>

> Perhaps M'. Constantinus could enlighten us to this respect.

Given that this topic seems to be of interest to several people I'll
treat it more in detail.

Ok, so we are facing Greek music theory. Something hard but
extremely fascinating.
So, in western culture we have two modes in music. A major mode,
which we usually see as positive, bright, happy, etc., and a minor
mode, which we usually see as negative, sad, melancholic...
Somebody here earlier (sorry for not remembering who he was)
mentioned the Indian "raga". Well, Raga is the Indian word
for "mode", and in the Indian music there is a huge quantity of raga
(for each season, for each feeling, for each sign of the zodiac, for
each constellation, etc.). We have only two modes, but BTW we have
been able to produce something appreciable, didn't we? <G>
Now please follow me ;-)

In the Greek musical system the base element is the 'tetrachord', a
sequence of four descending sounds (please note that our modern
modes are ascending). The extreme sounds of the tetrachord were
fixed (alway perfect fourth). The internal ones were movable.
The width of the intervals of the tetrachord (moving the two
internal sounds the intervals change) define the three 'genres' of
the Greek music: diatonic, chromatic, enharmonic.

-The intervals of the diatonic genre were two tones and a semitone.

-The intervals of the chromatic genre were one minor third and two
semitones.

-The intervals of the enharmonic genre were a major third and two
micro-intervals of a quarter of tone. (Please note that quarters of
tone does not exist in our modern modes. Still in the 20th Century
many composers re-discovered them and used them in their works).

A genre was defined by the kind of intervals it contained,
independently on their position. e.g. the diatonic genre could be:
tone-tone-semitone
tone-semitone-tone
semitone-tone-tone

And we shall examine this very genre, as the diatonic genre is the
oldest one, and was the most used.

So, the position of the sole semitone within the diatonic genre
defined three modes:

tone-tone-semitone (e.g. E-D-C-B) is the Dorian mode
tone-semitone-tone (e.g. D-C-B-A) is the Phrygian mode
semitone-tone-tone (e.g. C-B-A-G) is the Lydian mode

The Dorian tetrachord was the national mode, so to say.
The Phrygian tetrachord, as well as the Lydian one, probably have
oriental origins.

Now things get a bit more difficult.
Tetrachords were usually combined two by two. They could be linked
(the last note of the first tetrachord beeing the first note of the
second tetrachord, e.g. A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B) or unlinked (the two
tetrachords simply beeing consecutive, e.g. A-G-F-E|D-C-B-A).

The union of two tetrachords was called 'armonìa'.
(You should notice that the lyre usually had four strings, i.e. a
tetrachord, or seven, i.e. an armonìa)

If you take an unlinked Dorian armonìa (i.e. an armonìa whose first
tetrachord is a Dorian one)

e.g. E-D-C-B|A-G-F-E

then you add a linked tetrachord on the top

A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B|A-G-F-E

and a linked tetrachord at the bottom

A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B|A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B

and after this last tetrachord you add a note
(called 'proslambanòmenos'), you get the 'Téleion system' (or
Perfect System) which had a range of two octaves. It has been
elaborated in the IV century B.C.

I think that's enough. As a last note, I can tell you that each
armonìa wa matched with an 'ethos', that is with a particular
behaviour or feeling.
For example, according to Plato (third book of the Republic, I don't
remember the precise point, sorry), the Dorian armonìa is virile and
grave, the Phrygian armonìa is sweet and spontaneous, the Lydian one
is soft and convivial.

Of course there are many others modes (each genre has produces his
ones). We just saw the most important ones.

I hope this was of interest to some of you. :-)

BENE VALETE
Manivs COnstantinvs Serapio

AVE DIANA OCTAVIA

I really have no words... I even feel a wee bit embarrassed by your
kind words.
Thank you :-)

BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio
(Mozart ad 'Beetho' looking daggers at Diana...) ;-)

> I agree with you on that one 100%. I was happy to recieve a CD of

Serapio's compositions at the NR

> Rally in Tongeren including the Provininca Italia Anthem. Great

stuff! He's very much a musical

> genius and was from the time he was a really small child. We have

another Mozart or Beethoven

> amongst us but unfortunately most Nova Romans don't know this

because our Serapio is quite a

> humble and unassuming man (in other words he doesn't brag about

his talent).

>
> Vale,
> Diana

Salvete omnes,

Collecting art is a great hobby of mine but this type of art is
unattainable and even if it were it would be so far out of my league
anyway.

Here are some beautiful frescos and other art from the area of
Capania around modern day Naples. Capania included Pompeii,
Herculaneum abd other towns whose art was preserved by mount
Vesuvius' erruption. Enjoy!


http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/roman/painting.html

If this has been posted before, my apologies.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Let me remind all Citizens and respectable Flamen that this day is also the day in which Caesar Octavianus Augustus, after having pacified the world, closed Ianus temple's doors!

Reverenter

Gallus Solaris Alexander

Bononia

Itaia

Cn. Salix Astur M'. Constantino Serapione Quiritibusque S.P.D.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

> Given that this topic seems to be of interest to several people
> I'll treat it more in detail.

Gratias maximas tibi ago, M'. Constantine.
A fine explanation indeed!
Now that I have found an expert in musical theory, I would like to
make a few questions that have been floating around my head for some
time ;-).

> Ok, so we are facing Greek music theory. Something hard but
> extremely fascinating.
> So, in western culture we have two modes in music. A major mode,
> which we usually see as positive, bright, happy, etc., and a minor
> mode, which we usually see as negative, sad, melancholic...
> Somebody here earlier (sorry for not remembering who he was)
> mentioned the Indian "raga". Well, Raga is the Indian word
> for "mode", and in the Indian music there is a huge quantity of
> raga (for each season, for each feeling, for each sign of the
> zodiac, for each constellation, etc.). We have only two modes, but
> BTW we have been able to produce something appreciable, didn't we?
> <G> Now please follow me ;-)
>
> In the Greek musical system the base element is the 'tetrachord', a
> sequence of four descending sounds (please note that our modern
> modes are ascending). The extreme sounds of the tetrachord were
> fixed (alway perfect fourth). The internal ones were movable.
> The width of the intervals of the tetrachord (moving the two
> internal sounds the intervals change) define the three 'genres' of
> the Greek music: diatonic, chromatic, enharmonic.
>
> -The intervals of the diatonic genre were two tones and a semitone.
>
> -The intervals of the chromatic genre were one minor third and two
> semitones.
>
> -The intervals of the enharmonic genre were a major third and two
> micro-intervals of a quarter of tone. (Please note that quarters of
> tone does not exist in our modern modes. Still in the 20th Century
> many composers re-discovered them and used them in their works).
>
> A genre was defined by the kind of intervals it contained,
> independently on their position. e.g. the diatonic genre could be:
> tone-tone-semitone
> tone-semitone-tone
> semitone-tone-tone
>
> And we shall examine this very genre, as the diatonic genre is the
> oldest one, and was the most used.
>
> So, the position of the sole semitone within the diatonic genre
> defined three modes:
>
> tone-tone-semitone (e.g. E-D-C-B) is the Dorian mode
> tone-semitone-tone (e.g. D-C-B-A) is the Phrygian mode
> semitone-tone-tone (e.g. C-B-A-G) is the Lydian mode
>
> The Dorian tetrachord was the national mode, so to say.
> The Phrygian tetrachord, as well as the Lydian one, probably have
> oriental origins.
>
> Now things get a bit more difficult.
> Tetrachords were usually combined two by two. They could be linked
> (the last note of the first tetrachord beeing the first note of the
> second tetrachord, e.g. A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B) or unlinked (the two
> tetrachords simply beeing consecutive, e.g. A-G-F-E|D-C-B-A).
>
> The union of two tetrachords was called 'armonìa'.
> (You should notice that the lyre usually had four strings, i.e. a
> tetrachord, or seven, i.e. an armonìa)
>
> If you take an unlinked Dorian armonìa (i.e. an armonìa whose first
> tetrachord is a Dorian one)
>
> e.g. E-D-C-B|A-G-F-E
>
> then you add a linked tetrachord on the top
>
> A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B|A-G-F-E
>
> and a linked tetrachord at the bottom
>
> A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B|A-G-F-(E)-D-C-B
>
> and after this last tetrachord you add a note
> (called 'proslambanòmenos'), you get the 'Téleion system' (or
> Perfect System) which had a range of two octaves. It has been
> elaborated in the IV century B.C.

So why do some authors insist in affirming that the Greco-Roman
musical system was pentatonic? The system of tetrachords actually
produces all the tones and the semitones in between. Far more than
five tones.

Another question; do you know anything about Greco-Roman musical
notation? I would like to know if what I have read is correct.

> I think that's enough. As a last note, I can tell you that each
> armonìa wa matched with an 'ethos', that is with a particular
> behaviour or feeling.
> For example, according to Plato (third book of the Republic, I
> don't remember the precise point, sorry), the Dorian armonìa is
> virile and grave, the Phrygian armonìa is sweet and spontaneous,
> the Lydian one is soft and convivial.
>
> Of course there are many others modes (each genre has produces his
> ones). We just saw the most important ones.
>
> I hope this was of interest to some of you. :-)

It was very, very interesting, thank you :-).

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

Salve Serapio,

<Mozart ad 'Beetho' looking daggers at Diana...) ;-)
Of course :-) But that is because they are worried that you'll become more popular than they are
:-)

But my opinion is not quite a layman's. I took classical clarinet lessons for 9 years and
orchestration in university. In between I took old style jazz voice lessons (Billy Holiday and
Ella Fitzgerald type of stuff). A while back I switched to alto & tenor recorder. At least if I
make a mistake the whole neighborhood doesn't hear it like they can with the clarinet :-)

Vale,
Diana

Salvete
After several parties, I have returned to continue our discussion. How many
Romans here know who the Tribunes of the Plebeians are and what there
significance is?

Suffice to say in the Early Republic the Patricians were in control.
However, the Plebs by economic revolt, coupled by refusal to serve in the III-IV
class of the legiones in a military crisis received concessions from the Pats to
form their own magistracy to protect them from Patrician excesses.
This occurrence has been dated at 494, 471, 466 BCE. It may be that in 494
there were only two, and 471, or 466 these were increased to the known number
of four.
These Tribunes had extraordinary powers. Basically they were free from
criminal and civil prosecution, and could extend this same protection to all
citizens that requested it. They also could veto any edictum or lex enacted by any
magistracy. (Presumably to protect the citizens from Patrician excesses of
power. )
Since the Tribune was immune from all prosecution, the only way one could get
rid of him during his term was to kill him.

Tribunes were elected by a comitia of their peers, though the use of the
tribes. It may be since that the four Urban tribes were Plebs and four Tribunes
were elected, one was to protect the members of each tribe. But that remains
speculation. We have no written proof of such.

After a near civil war between the Plebs and the Patricians a settlement was
reached. (442?)
The number of Tribunes were increased to ten, and the Assembly of Tribes
increased in number to include the rural tribes as well. The next change was that
of power, Tribunes could put forth leges that if approved by the Assembly,
and force the Senate to accept it, through public opinion, these leges were
binding to both Pats and Plebs. This leges were called plebi scita, and came to
be called plebiscites.
As the century wore on, plebeian voice in politics increased.
They had two members elected to oversee the temple of Ceres,
later these would become Aediles.
By 437, they were allowed to marry Patricians, allowing Plebes to
recognized in Patrician Gens.
In 421 they were allowed to became quaestors, and the Aediles
became magistracies. By 360, Plebes were being appointed military
tribunes.
Either 366, or 362 accounts differ, the Consulship was opened to Plebes.
After this in 351, they as former consuls could become Censors, and in 337
could hold
the Praetorship. Since former Consuls and Praetors could be enrolled in the
Senate if they met the qualification, Plebeians could enter the Senate.
Such Senators were called the enrolled (conscripti) to designate them from
the
Patricians (patres) Senators.
By 300 the Lex Ogulnia allowed Plebeians to enter the Flameniate, and
Plebeian assimilation in the magistracies was complete.

In 287, to avoid another Civil War, the Senate appointed as dictator Q.
Hortensius
to negotiate with the Plebes. His Lex Hortensia, allowed the Plebes
additional powers.
These our some of the powers that we invest our Nova Roma Tribunes.
The right to sit in the Senate and listen to the debates, then report the
results of these debates to the People.
The right to compel a Senator to address the Senate on their behalf.
(Presumably failure would be a violation of Tribunius Potestas outlined earlier)
The right to summon the Senate in order to debate a Plebescite.
The right to prosecute a magistrate before the Assembly.
After Magnesia (190) Rome found itself a world power.
There came changes with this power.
The Patrician "Famous Families" found themselves sharing control with some
Plebeian "Famous Familes" who had become prominent in the Punic and
Hellenistic wars.
This formed an aristracacy that would dominate Rome for 150 years, until
Octavius destroyed it.
Sullan Reforms. After Cornelius Sulla an Optimate, wrestled control of Rome
from the Marian Popularies, he gave the Senate veto power over the Plebeian
Assembly.
The Tribunes was reduced to the only vetoing individual magistrates, they
could not veto Senatorial decrees. Also the Tribunate was removed from the
Cursus Honorum.
Tribunes were forbidden to run for any other office.
This was overturned by Lepidus in 78-77, and the Tribunate returned to its
pre Sullan status.
Now that you all have digested this, in our next discussion we will see what
all of this has to do with Nova Roma.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Q. Fabi Maxime,

Thank you for the very informative and interesting article on the
tribunes.
One further question; I remember from Ben Hur, Masala was elated that
he was being groomed for tribune. I suppose he meant military tribune.
What were the duties and responsibilities of the military tribune and
did he have any connection at all with the civilian population and
government in Rome? What were their numbers? This is just a general
knowledge question for anyone who may be confused by the two types.

Thanks,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> Salvete
> After several parties, I have returned to continue our discussion.
How many
> Romans here know who the Tribunes of the Plebeians are and what
there
> significance is?
>
> Suffice to say in the Early Republic the Patricians were in
control.
> However, the Plebs by economic revolt, coupled by refusal to serve
in the III-IV
> class of the legiones in a military crisis received concessions
from the Pats to
> form their own magistracy to protect them from Patrician excesses.
> This occurrence has been dated at 494, 471, 466 BCE. It may be
that in 494
> there were only two, and 471, or 466 these were increased to the
known number
> of four.
> These Tribunes had extraordinary powers. Basically they were free
from
> criminal and civil prosecution, and could extend this same
protection to all
> citizens that requested it. They also could veto any edictum or
lex enacted by any
> magistracy. (Presumably to protect the citizens from Patrician
excesses of
> power. )
> Since the Tribune was immune from all prosecution, the only way one
could get
> rid of him during his term was to kill him.
>
> Tribunes were elected by a comitia of their peers, though the use
of the
> tribes. It may be since that the four Urban tribes were Plebs and
four Tribunes
> were elected, one was to protect the members of each tribe. But
that remains
> speculation. We have no written proof of such.
>
> After a near civil war between the Plebs and the Patricians a
settlement was
> reached. (442?)
> The number of Tribunes were increased to ten, and the Assembly of
Tribes
> increased in number to include the rural tribes as well. The next
change was that
> of power, Tribunes could put forth leges that if approved by the
Assembly,
> and force the Senate to accept it, through public opinion, these
leges were
> binding to both Pats and Plebs. This leges were called plebi
scita, and came to
> be called plebiscites.
> As the century wore on, plebeian voice in politics increased.
> They had two members elected to oversee the temple of Ceres,
> later these would become Aediles.
> By 437, they were allowed to marry Patricians, allowing Plebes to
> recognized in Patrician Gens.
> In 421 they were allowed to became quaestors, and the Aediles
> became magistracies. By 360, Plebes were being appointed military
> tribunes.
> Either 366, or 362 accounts differ, the Consulship was opened to
Plebes.
> After this in 351, they as former consuls could become Censors, and
in 337
> could hold
> the Praetorship. Since former Consuls and Praetors could be
enrolled in the
> Senate if they met the qualification, Plebeians could enter the
Senate.
> Such Senators were called the enrolled (conscripti) to designate
them from
> the
> Patricians (patres) Senators.
> By 300 the Lex Ogulnia allowed Plebeians to enter the Flameniate,
and
> Plebeian assimilation in the magistracies was complete.
>
> In 287, to avoid another Civil War, the Senate appointed as
dictator Q.
> Hortensius
> to negotiate with the Plebes. His Lex Hortensia, allowed the
Plebes
> additional powers.
> These our some of the powers that we invest our Nova Roma Tribunes.
> The right to sit in the Senate and listen to the debates, then
report the
> results of these debates to the People.
> The right to compel a Senator to address the Senate on their
behalf.
> (Presumably failure would be a violation of Tribunius Potestas
outlined earlier)
> The right to summon the Senate in order to debate a Plebescite.
> The right to prosecute a magistrate before the Assembly.
> After Magnesia (190) Rome found itself a world power.
> There came changes with this power.
> The Patrician "Famous Families" found themselves sharing control
with some
> Plebeian "Famous Familes" who had become prominent in the Punic and
> Hellenistic wars.
> This formed an aristracacy that would dominate Rome for 150 years,
until
> Octavius destroyed it.
> Sullan Reforms. After Cornelius Sulla an Optimate, wrestled
control of Rome
> from the Marian Popularies, he gave the Senate veto power over the
Plebeian
> Assembly.
> The Tribunes was reduced to the only vetoing individual
magistrates, they
> could not veto Senatorial decrees. Also the Tribunate was removed
from the
> Cursus Honorum.
> Tribunes were forbidden to run for any other office.
> This was overturned by Lepidus in 78-77, and the Tribunate returned
to its
> pre Sullan status.
> Now that you all have digested this, in our next discussion we will
see what
> all of this has to do with Nova Roma.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Lanius Falco Quiritibus SPD



Salve, Quinte Lani et omnes

An excellent site! Thanks for posting it for all of us to enjoy.

Vale,

Falco


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AVE GN SALIX ASTVR

> So why do some authors insist in affirming that the Greco-Roman
> musical system was pentatonic? The system of tetrachords actually
> produces all the tones and the semitones in between. Far more than
> five tones.

I should read what these authors write. It would seem very strange
to me. Who are them? Is there anything on the net, or could you give
me the titles of their books? Thanks ;-)

> Another question; do you know anything about Greco-Roman musical
> notation? I would like to know if what I have read is correct.

I must say that music was mostly handed down orally. That's also why
we only have a few fragments of written music.
However Greeks did have a notation. They had two! It is a rather
curious thing. One was for voice and one for instruments.
However, even tough the theory affirms that these two notations were
separated, we have several examples where they are used without
distinction.
As to their origins experts are still discussing (If you want we can
deepen this matter as to *when* notation was born).
Anyway, according to theory, the vocal notation used the capital
letters of the Greek alphabet (not only, there were other signs too,
but the vast majority were Greek letters).
The instrumental notation used the letters of the Attic alphabet as
reformed by archon Euclid in 403 B.C.

What I'll be saying now is much more true for the instrumental
notation, while there are many exceptions for the vocal one.
A sign/letter could be written upright (called "orthòn", e.g. "C"),
thus meaning the natural sound. It could be written horizontally or
oblique (called "anestrammenon", e.g. "U"), thus meaning a sound
which is a fraction of tone higher. It could be written overturned
(called "apestrammenon", e.g. something like ")"), thus meaning a
sound which was another fraction of tone higher.
Between two letters (an orthòn and another orthòn) there is one tone.
So you see the notation was composed of a series of triads (orthòn-
anestrammenon-apestrammenon, then again orthòn-anestrammenon-
apestrammenon, etc.).
The last sixteen signs (in total they are 67, from F1 to g1) already
appear in the previous triads, but indicate higer sounds through
an "apex", a sort of apostrophe near them.
Of course, you know that 67 is not divisible by three. In fact the
first three signs/sounds and the last one were not included in the
triads (I'm still trying to understand if they had a particular
meaning), so we have 63, which is perfectly divisible. You get 21
triads.

As to rythm, things are much more complicated than one could
imagine. In fact, in this case too, the fragments of music we have
do not reflect the theory.
Anyway, in vocal music metrics tells you the length of each note.
However, sometimes there could be some modification, and in any case
in the instrumental notation you have no metrics, so there were
other signs which told you the length of the sounds or the length of
the rests.
If you want I can deep this matter too, even tough I fear I'd have
some problem with the font...! :-)

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio

Sp. Postumius Q. Fabio Maximo sal.

Salve Maxime,

I do have one question....

You write:

> After this in 351, they as former consuls could become Censors, and in 337
> could hold
> the Praetorship. Since former Consuls and Praetors could be enrolled in the
> Senate if they met the qualification, Plebeians could enter the Senate.

If my understanding of the Cursus Honorum is correct, would this not mean that either the Plebeians were allowed to skip the Praetorship and go straight to the Consulship, or did the Patricians just please the masses by granting a power they would be unable to attain? It just seems odd that the Patricians would not have allowed the Praetorship (i.e. another step closer to the top, but not yet the top) before they allowed the Consulship, but then again, I am nothing of a psychologist either.

Optime Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Salvete! I am new member of this interesting group and I want to
announce You my latin homepage. The original homepage is in German
languae( www.prolatein.de), but I have started an English version:
http://www.prolatein.de/latin.html . There You can find the "Nuntii
Latini" of two radio-stations and interactive learning-games. In the
german version I have many of these learning-games. Give me some
time to translate them (I must only translate the instruction for
these exercises; if You want do the original exercises, click on
http://www.interrete.de/spiele/lueckenaufgaben/index.html . ). Every
week I will post new exercises and news.

Salve Theolito,

Thanks for the information about your Latin homepage. I am sure many
of us will pay you a visit and watch your development with interest.
Please feel free to participate in discussions here and above all,
welcome!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "theolito2001" <theo.bozeman@g...>
wrote:

> Salvete! I am new member of this interesting group and I want to
> announce You my latin homepage. The original homepage is in German
> languae( www.prolatein.de), but I have started an English version:
> http://www.prolatein.de/latin.html . There You can find the "Nuntii
> Latini" of two radio-stations and interactive learning-games. In

the

> german version I have many of these learning-games. Give me some
> time to translate them (I must only translate the instruction for
> these exercises; if You want do the original exercises, click on
> http://www.interrete.de/spiele/lueckenaufgaben/index.html . ).

Every

> week I will post new exercises and news.

Salvete M'. Constantine et omnes.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

> AVE GN SALIX ASTVR
>
>> So why do some authors insist in affirming that the Greco-Roman
>> musical system was pentatonic? The system of tetrachords actually
>> produces all the tones and the semitones in between. Far more than
>> five tones.
>
> I should read what these authors write. It would seem very strange
> to me. Who are them? Is there anything on the net, or could you
> give me the titles of their books? Thanks ;-)

I am not sure at all of where I have read that, but I think that I
didn't dream it, considering what others have said :-). Probably I
found it somewhere in the net. Not too trustworthy, I know.

>> Another question; do you know anything about Greco-Roman musical
>> notation? I would like to know if what I have read is correct.
>
> I must say that music was mostly handed down orally. That's also
> why we only have a few fragments of written music.
> However Greeks did have a notation. They had two! It is a rather
> curious thing. One was for voice and one for instruments.
> However, even tough the theory affirms that these two notations
> were separated, we have several examples where they are used
> without distinction.

That's what I have read about the subject :-).

> As to their origins experts are still discussing (If you want we
> can deepen this matter as to *when* notation was born).
> Anyway, according to theory, the vocal notation used the capital
> letters of the Greek alphabet (not only, there were other signs
> too, but the vast majority were Greek letters).

In the vocal notation, each letter of the Greek alphabet represented
half a semitone below the precedent. It would go like this:

Alfa - sharp A
Beta - semisharp A
Gamma - natural A
Delta - sharp B
Epsilon - semisharp B
Zeta - natural B
Eta - sharp C
[...]

and so on, until the Greek alphabet was completed. To indicate upper
or lower notes, inversion, marks and asterisks were used over the
same letters, and even notes from the instrumental notation could be
borrowed.

> The instrumental notation used the letters of the Attic alphabet as
> reformed by archon Euclid in 403 B.C.

And the step here was far larger: a complete tone between two signs,
according to what I have read.
Do you have a .ttf with the letters of the Attic alphabet? (For those
who haven't seen them, they look very, very strange).

> What I'll be saying now is much more true for the instrumental
> notation, while there are many exceptions for the vocal one.
> A sign/letter could be written upright (called "orthòn", e.g. "C"),
> thus meaning the natural sound. It could be written horizontally or
> oblique (called "anestrammenon", e.g. "U"), thus meaning a sound
> which is a fraction of tone higher. It could be written overturned
> (called "apestrammenon", e.g. something like ")"), thus meaning a
> sound which was another fraction of tone higher.
> Between two letters (an orthòn and another orthòn) there is one
> tone.

Exaclty.

> So you see the notation was composed of a series of triads (orthòn-
> anestrammenon-apestrammenon, then again orthòn-anestrammenon-
> apestrammenon, etc.).

According to what I have exposed above, the vocal notation was also
composed by triads. But each triad was represented by three letters
of the alphabet, instead of by just one in different positions.

> The last sixteen signs (in total they are 67, from F1 to g1)
> already appear in the previous triads, but indicate higer sounds
> through an "apex", a sort of apostrophe near them.
> Of course, you know that 67 is not divisible by three. In fact the
> first three signs/sounds and the last one were not included in the
> triads (I'm still trying to understand if they had a particular
> meaning), so we have 63, which is perfectly divisible. You get 21
> triads.
>
> As to rythm, things are much more complicated than one could
> imagine. In fact, in this case too, the fragments of music we have
> do not reflect the theory.
> Anyway, in vocal music metrics tells you the length of each note.
> However, sometimes there could be some modification, and in any
> case in the instrumental notation you have no metrics, so there
> were other signs which told you the length of the sounds or the
> length of the rests.

I have seen signs to represnt time. They'd look more or less like
this:

U chronos protos

_ 2 chronoi

_| 3 chronoi

|_| 4 chronoi

|_|_| 5 chronoi

There were also signs to represent rests, which were more or less the
same but with a circumflex (^) below.

Note that the first two are the same used in poetic metric to
represent short and long vowels.

> If you want I can deep this matter too, even tough I fear I'd have
> some problem with the font...! :-)

Perhaps you can try :-).

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

SALVE

You are the welcome here, as is everybody, mostly who is engaging in
the circulation of Roman Culture.
I found yor site interesting (sorry I cannot speak German!); now I'm
downloading your dictionary, I'll scrutinize it later!
Hope to hear from you.


BENE VALE
L IUL SULLA
Candidate for Quaestor





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "theolito2001" <theo.bozeman@g...>
wrote:

> Salvete! I am new member of this interesting group and I want to
> announce You my latin homepage. The original homepage is in German
> languae( www.prolatein.de), but I have started an English version:
> http://www.prolatein.de/latin.html . There You can find

the "Nuntii

> Latini" of two radio-stations and interactive learning-games. In

the

> german version I have many of these learning-games. Give me some
> time to translate them (I must only translate the instruction for
> these exercises; if You want do the original exercises, click on
> http://www.interrete.de/spiele/lueckenaufgaben/index.html . ).

Every

> week I will post new exercises and news.

"Pacifing" the Empire of any and all attempts to restore the Republic is
*NOT* an event that I would care to celebrate.

L. Sicinius Drusus

sa-mann@... wrote:

> Let me remind all Citizens and respectable Flamen that this day is
> also the day in which Caesar Octavianus Augustus, after having
> pacified the world, closed Ianus temple's doors!
>
> Reverenter
>
> Gallus Solaris Alexander
>
> Bononia
>
> Itaia

AVETE GN SALIX ASTVR OMNESQVE

> Alfa - sharp A
> Beta - semisharp A
> Gamma - natural A
> Delta - sharp B
> Epsilon - semisharp B
> Zeta - natural B
> Eta - sharp C
> [...]

Not exactly. First of all we must always consider that, as I told in
another message, the Greek system was descending. So for example
Alfa will always mean an higher sound than Delta.
In addition, in the vocal notation, Alfa corresponded to sharp f
(diesis Fa3). So it was:

Alfa - sharp f
Beta - semisharp f
Gamma - natural f
Delta - sharp e
Epsilon - semisharp e
Zeta - natural e
Eta - sharp d
Teta - semisharp d
Iota - natural d

Please note that a sharp note here has not to be considered as we
would consider it today. The tempered system (which is the one we
use today) sees for example sharp E and natural F as omophone, i.e.
having the same sound. In the Greek theory sharp E is higher than
natural E, but not F yet! ;-)

> and so on, until the Greek alphabet was completed. To indicate

upper

> or lower notes, inversion, marks and asterisks were used over the
> same letters, and even notes from the instrumental notation could

be

> borrowed.

That's perfect :-)

> Do you have a .ttf with the letters of the Attic alphabet? (For

those

> who haven't seen them, they look very, very strange).

I should scan it from one of my books. Otherwise let's see if I find
it on the net.

> According to what I have exposed above, the vocal notation was

also

> composed by triads. But each triad was represented by three

letters

> of the alphabet, instead of by just one in different positions.

Exactly.

> I have seen signs to represnt time. They'd look more or less like
> this:

Oh, good, you found the way to represent them more or less with our
poor fonts! ;-)
So let's go on.

Over the vocal or instrumental signs there could be rythmical signs
too.

U chronos protos - that's a short duration of the sound.



__ makrà dìchronos - the two times long



|__ makrà trìchronos - the three times long



|__| makrà tetràchronos - the four times long



|_|_| makrà pentàchronos - the five times long


As to the rests, there were the following signs:


/\ (or an upside-down U), called "chronos kenòs brachys", a 1 time
rest.


__
/\ , called "chronos kenòs makròs", a 2 times rest.


|__
/\ , called "chronos kenòs makròs tris", a 3 times rest.


|__|
/\ , called "chronos kenòs makròs tetrakìs", a 4 times rest.


Then there are other signs, like a point (stigmé), two points
(kolon), a curved line (hyphén), which we are not sure what they
exactly meant, even though we can formulate hypoteses.

BENE VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio

Salve, M'. Constantine; et salvete omnes.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

>> Alfa - sharp A
>> Beta - semisharp A
>> Gamma - natural A
>> Delta - sharp B
>> Epsilon - semisharp B
>> Zeta - natural B
>> Eta - sharp C
>> [...]
>
> Not exactly. First of all we must always consider that, as I told
> in another message, the Greek system was descending. So for example
> Alfa will always mean an higher sound than Delta.
> In addition, in the vocal notation, Alfa corresponded to sharp f
> (diesis Fa3). So it was:
>
> Alfa - sharp f
> Beta - semisharp f
> Gamma - natural f
> Delta - sharp e
> Epsilon - semisharp e
> Zeta - natural e
> Eta - sharp d
> Teta - semisharp d
> Iota - natural d

My mistake. I translated mentally from Southern European notes (do,
re, mi and such) to Germanic notes (A, B, C and such) and forgot that
B is actually higher than A :-). What I was trying to say was:

Alfa - sharp A
Beta - semisharp A
Gamma - natural A
Delta - sharp G
Epsilon - semisharp G
Zeta - natural G
Eta - sharp F
[...]

My sources, though, insist that Alfa represents sharp A. Are you
completely sure that it is sharp F? Isn't it a bit low? I mean;
descending from a sharp F will take you down to very low tones (out
of the pentagram, so to speak) very quickly.

> Please note that a sharp note here has not to be considered as we
> would consider it today. The tempered system (which is the one we
> use today) sees for example sharp E and natural F as omophone, i.e.
> having the same sound. In the Greek theory sharp E is higher than
> natural E, but not F yet! ;-)

I think that we have a problem of nomenclature :-).
In English, "sharp" means a rise of half a step. So double sharp E is
the omophone of F, while sharp E is in the middle between E and F. Am
I wrong?
http://www.teoria.com/reference/intervals/14.htm

"Semisharp" would stand as "half sharp"; that is, a quarter of a tone
(our modern musical system does not use this accidental very
frequently). Another word for it is "microtone".

>> Do you have a .ttf with the letters of the Attic alphabet? (For
>> those who haven't seen them, they look very, very strange).
>
> I should scan it from one of my books. Otherwise let's see if I
> find it on the net.

Thank you. I'll also look around. I have found a couple of related
links:
http://users.pandora.be/avvakum/ancient/theoriee.html

>> I have seen signs to represnt time. They'd look more or less like
>> this:
>
> Oh, good, you found the way to represent them more or less with our
> poor fonts! ;-)
> So let's go on.
>
> Over the vocal or instrumental signs there could be rythmical signs
> too.
>
> U chronos protos - that's a short duration of the sound.
>
>
>
> __ makrà dìchronos - the two times long
>
>
>
> |__ makrà trìchronos - the three times long
>
>
>
> |__| makrà tetràchronos - the four times long
>
>
>
> |_|_| makrà pentàchronos - the five times long
>
>
> As to the rests, there were the following signs:
>
>
> /\ (or an upside-down U), called "chronos kenòs brachys", a 1 time
> rest.
>
>
> __
> /\ , called "chronos kenòs makròs", a 2 times rest.
>
>
> |__
> /\ , called "chronos kenòs makròs tris", a 3 times rest.
>
>
> |__|
> /\ , called "chronos kenòs makròs tetrakìs", a 4 times rest.
>
>
> Then there are other signs, like a point (stigmé), two points
> (kolon), a curved line (hyphén), which we are not sure what they
> exactly meant, even though we can formulate hypoteses.

And what do *you* think they would mean? :-)

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

AVETE GN SALIX ASTVR OMNESQVE

> My sources, though, insist that Alfa represents sharp A. Are you
> completely sure that it is sharp F? Isn't it a bit low? I mean;
> descending from a sharp F will take you down to very low tones

(out

> of the pentagram, so to speak) very quickly.

I didn't wrote sharp F, I wrote sharp f. ;-)
In Southern Europe we would say diesis Fa3, which is the first
diesis Fa after the "central do" (ut, in France, C in anglosaxon
countries).
Sharp F would be diesis Fa2, which the diesis Fa *before* the
central do, and yes, this would lead to too low sounds.
You yourself can check the tables of Alypius. You can find them in

"Musici Scriptores Graeci. Aristoteles, Euclides, Nicomachus,
Bacchius, Gaudentius, Alypius et melodiarum veterum quidquid extat.
Teubner, Leipzig 1895."

You find the tables of Alypius at p.368.
You will see the range of these tables. They are about three
octaves. It goes from F1 (Fa1) to g1 (Sol4). Which are notes the
human voice can reach, as well as instruments.

Anyway, just to be sure, I checked in three treatises I have here at
home, and yes, I read that Alfa is sharp f (diesis Fa3). :-)

> I think that we have a problem of nomenclature :-).
> In English, "sharp" means a rise of half a step. So double sharp E

is

> the omophone of F, while sharp E is in the middle between E and F.

Am

> I wrong?

You are fully right. But you must consider that between E and F (mi
and fa), as well as between B and C (si and do) there is one
semitone only. BTW, you can easily see it on a piano keyboard. If
you look at an octave, you see that there are two couples of "white
keys" which have no "black key" between them. They are B-C (si-do)
and E-F (mi-fa).

> > Then there are other signs, like a point (stigmé), two points
> > (kolon), a curved line (hyphén), which we are not sure what they
> > exactly meant, even though we can formulate hypoteses.
>
> And what do *you* think they would mean? :-)

Well, the hyphén, the curved line, always appears under two or three
notes, as if it "linked" them. If there are words, it always links
two or three notes on a sole syllable. I think it means that you
must sing those notes without stopping the emission of wind. It can
be easily understood if you magine a flute, an aulòs. You have to
pass from one note to the other without stopping blowing.
With some difference, our modern slurs have the same meaning (and I
see I could be influenced by this ;-) ).

The kolon, the two points, also served to link two notes, but we
have too few fragments to make some serious hypotesis. It could have
a meaning similar to the hyphén, but I really don't know... sorry!

The stigmé, one point, is something strange. It could be something
like a stress, but nor the tratises gathered by Bellermann (Anonyma
de musica scripta Bellermanniana) neither Priscianus and Martianus
Capella, which mention it, are clear enough. So we really can't say
whether it was a strong or a soft stress. :-)

BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio

AVE GN SALIX ASTVR

While re-reading my post I saw that what I wrote could be
misleading, so I'll reword it and conclude the reasoning ;-)

> > I think that we have a problem of nomenclature :-).
> > In English, "sharp" means a rise of half a step. So double sharp

E

> is
> > the omophone of F, while sharp E is in the middle between E and

F.

> Am
> > I wrong?

So, yes, you are... (how pitiles I am!)
(just kidding, of course ;-) )
You are right as to the definition of "sharp", but as I wrote you
must consider that between E and F (mi and fa), as well as between B
and C (si and do) there is one semitone only. So sharp E (diesis Mi)
has the same sound of F (Fa). And, of course, sharp B has the same
sound of C.
But we can say this only within the area of the tempered system,
which is the one we use today.
In the Greek system sharp E was higher than E, but not F yet.
I hope it is clearer now :-)

BENE VALE
M'Con.Serapio

---



Salve Quintus Fabius:

My comments below.

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/10/04 1:48:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> scriba_forum@h... writes:


>
>
> > "During the latter period of the republic, when the office of
> > Quaestor held immediately before that of Tribune, the tribunes were
> > generally elected from among the Senators and this continued to be

the same

> > under the Empire" (appian.deBell.Civ.i.100
>
> This was post Sullan, when Quaestors were admitted to the Senate.

That fact

> was already pointed out in an earlier post.

Pompeia respondeo: Indeed you are correct, it was post Sullan, but it
doesn't say specifically in the Smith's literature that I read, that
this situation existed 'during' the time that the Sullan decrees
allowed Quaestors to be Senators, it said 'the office of Quaestor held
immediately before that of the Tribune'. By that I took it as that
Quaestors were considered one higher in the hierarchy of political
positions. Further, this is mentioned by the author 'after' the
acknowledgement of Pompeius Magnus' restoring the Tribunate to its
preSullan status, leaving me unconvinced that he was specifically
referring to the tribunes' powers as still being noosed by Sulla's
decrees.

Granted he doesn't give a specific year for this, except
circumstantially it's 'after Pompeius" and "before Augustus", which
the author has to glean from reading, unfortunately. Such is Ancient
history, I guess.





Of course this was just to ensure

> that the Oligarchic Senate
> had control of the Tribunate.

Pompeia: This is highly possible, given the power struggles of the
republic. No argument from me on this one.

Interesting discussion, nonne?

Bene valete,
Pompeia




The power (Tribunica Potestas) was given to

> the Dictator I believe in 48 BCE, then again to Octavius in 23 BCE.

(I was

> studying Octavius recently.) However, he was pretty much running

things by 30 BCE,

> making himself the Peoples' Protector and abolishing the reason for the
> People' s Tribunate. Military Tribunes of course continued.
>
> I have to get back on the floor. More on this later.
>
> Valete
> Q Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Fabius Maximus Proconsul:

(article snipped for brevity and bandwidth conservation)

In your historical extrapolation you indicated that the return on the
Tribunes to pre Sullan status was Lapedus in 78-77. I thought this
was done during the consulship of Pompeius Magnus and M. Lucinius
Crassus during approximately the same time, atleast in the same decade.

Am I confused? Perhaps we are not talking about the same things?

Pompeia

Salvete:

Having watched I Claudius, I noticed different types af clothing and attire
for Roman men. Everyone wore a tunic, however, there seemed to be two types
of garment worn over the tunic. One obviously was a toga, wrapped around
the body, and unclasped. The other was also a piece of cloth that was
draped over one shoulder, and allowed to hang over the body, and clasped at
the shoulder, hanging down almost to the ankle. What is this? It is
different froma toga, and (if the film is to be beleived)worn more than the
toga.

If anyone has information, I would greatly appreciate it.

Vale:

Quintus Bianchius Rufinus

_________________________________________________________________
Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed
experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem III Idus Ianuarii; the day is nefastus publicus and
the feriae of Carmentalia and Iuturnae. The Carmentalia was a two-day
festival (the second day was observed on ante diem XVIII Kalendae
Februarii) in honour of teh Goddess of childbirth and prophecy
Carmentis. Prayers to Her invoke the Carmentes -- the Goddesses
Porrima and Postverta, who preside at head-first and feet-first
deliveries, respectively. Ovid and Macrobius saw these Goddesses as
dealing with destiny and associated them with Ianus. The Flamen
Carmentalis sacrificed at the shrine of Carmenta at the Porta
Carmentalis near the Capitoline. Most Roman feriae are on what we
would call odd-numbered days and are frequently separated by a day or
more because it was thought particularly propitious. The Iuturnae is
the anniversary of the dedication of the temple of Iuturna, Goddess of
fountains, running waters, and prophetic waters; the temple was
located near the Aqua Virgo aqueduct in the Campus Martius.

Tomorrow is pridie Idus Ianuarii; the day is comitialis.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

Salve Bryan,

It sounds like you are describing a chlamys. This was a garment of
Greek origin transmitted to the Romans via the Etruscans. The tunic
was the typical garment of the Roman, usually knee length for men, but
hitched up to mid-thigh when working. Women wore long tunics, and in
the later Imperial period men wore longer tunics (dalmatica). The
chlamys could also be worn instead of the tunic. It was an oblong of
cloth, folded, and pinned over one shoulder. It may have appeared in
the film that the men were wearing the chlamys more than the toga,
because men did not wear the toga all the time. All men were required
to wear the toga when doing business in the Forum, executing official
state duties, or performing religious rituals. Otherwise they could do
without its weight.

Ti. Ambrosius Silvus

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Reif [mailto:brcincy@...]
Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2004 21:06
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman Clothing


Salvete:

Having watched I Claudius, I noticed different types af clothing and
attire
for Roman men. Everyone wore a tunic, however, there seemed to be two
types
of garment worn over the tunic. One obviously was a toga, wrapped
around
the body, and unclasped. The other was also a piece of cloth that was
draped over one shoulder, and allowed to hang over the body, and
clasped at
the shoulder, hanging down almost to the ankle. What is this? It is
different froma toga, and (if the film is to be beleived)worn more
than the
toga.

If anyone has information, I would greatly appreciate it.

Vale:

Quintus Bianchius Rufinus

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, omnes.

I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that adlection of most
quaestores to the Senate is an early middle republican innovation as
a result of expansion of quaestorian responsibility to administration
of the ager publicus (there are boundary stone inscriptions which
support this contention, as well as some funerary epigraphs). Sullaa
was probably regularising what had been a de facto practice for some
time. There were also senatorial tribunes: the consular Fulvius
Flaccus was a tribunician colleague of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, for
example. While the tribunician fasti are by no means complete,
enough has survived to suggest that, while not the usual case, a
senator serving a tribune was not all that anomalous after the
opening of the curule magistracies to plebeians (perhaps one every
five years or so, although there are large lacunae in the fasti, so
this is a guesstimate rather than a strict statistic).

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here are links to "The Late Roman Army":

http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/orb/lra.htm

And "'Barbarization' in the Late Roman Army":

http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/orb/barb.htm

Both are short essays by the distinguished historian Hugh Elton
(Florida International University) in the ORB series.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

It was most likely to be a theatrical representation of a pallium. This was a cloak that was worn by many Roman men when going to dine at a friend or patron's domus or to attend a banquet at their collegia. It can be worn in a like manner to a short toga, pinned at the shoulder, or draped. It could be used by the poorer folk or travellers as a blanket. In Greece, it was called the himation.
See illustrations in THE ANCIENT CITY by Peter Connolly.

F Gal Aur Sec Fal

Salve,

I want to compliment to you for your site. I can offer you my help to
translate your material in Italian ... from English, naturally :-)
I would like to know German but ... may be in a future !

VALE
C IVL MARIVS
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: theolito2001 [mailto:theo.bozeman@...]
Inviato: domenica 11 gennaio 2004 15.28
A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] "Nuntii Latini" and other features...


Salvete! I am new member of this interesting group and I want to
announce You my latin homepage. The original homepage is in German
languae( www.prolatein.de), but I have started an English version:
http://www.prolatein.de/latin.html . There You can find the "Nuntii
Latini" of two radio-stations and interactive learning-games. In the
german version I have many of these learning-games. Give me some
time to translate them (I must only translate the instruction for
these exercises; if You want do the original exercises, click on
http://www.interrete.de/spiele/lueckenaufgaben/index.html . ). Every
week I will post new exercises and news.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete M'. Constantine Quiritesque.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

>> My sources, though, insist that Alfa represents sharp A. Are you
>> completely sure that it is sharp F? Isn't it a bit low? I mean;
>> descending from a sharp F will take you down to very low tones
>> (out of the pentagram, so to speak) very quickly.
>
> I didn't wrote sharp F, I wrote sharp f. ;-)
> In Southern Europe we would say diesis Fa3, which is the first
> diesis Fa after the "central do" (ut, in France, C in anglosaxon
> countries).
> Sharp F would be diesis Fa2, which the diesis Fa *before* the
> central do, and yes, this would lead to too low sounds.
> You yourself can check the tables of Alypius. You can find them in
>
> "Musici Scriptores Graeci. Aristoteles, Euclides, Nicomachus,
> Bacchius, Gaudentius, Alypius et melodiarum veterum quidquid extat.
> Teubner, Leipzig 1895."
>
> You find the tables of Alypius at p.368.
> You will see the range of these tables. They are about three
> octaves. It goes from F1 (Fa1) to g1 (Sol4). Which are notes the
> human voice can reach, as well as instruments.
>
> Anyway, just to be sure, I checked in three treatises I have here
> at home, and yes, I read that Alfa is sharp f (diesis Fa3). :-)

I will never understand why modern musicians insist in having
different names for the same thing :-).

In any case, and since I don't know where to find the book you
mention above, I'll take your word for it and I will accept that Alfa
should be read as sharp f :-).

>>> Then there are other signs, like a point (stigmé), two points
>>> (kolon), a curved line (hyphén), which we are not sure what they
>>> exactly meant, even though we can formulate hypoteses.
>>
>> And what do *you* think they would mean? :-)
>
> Well, the hyphén, the curved line, always appears under two or
> three notes, as if it "linked" them. If there are words, it always
> links two or three notes on a sole syllable. I think it means that
> you must sing those notes without stopping the emission of wind. It
> can be easily understood if you magine a flute, an aulòs. You have
> to pass from one note to the other without stopping blowing.
> With some difference, our modern slurs have the same meaning (and I
> see I could be influenced by this ;-) ).

It does make some sense. After all, such a sign would naturally
suggest a "union" between the three notes.

> The kolon, the two points, also served to link two notes, but we
> have too few fragments to make some serious hypotesis. It could
> have a meaning similar to the hyphén, but I really don't know...
> sorry!

Perhaps it remarks that they should be played in two steps. The
opposite of the hyphén, so to speak :-).

> The stigmé, one point, is something strange. It could be something
> like a stress, but nor the tratises gathered by Bellermann (Anonyma
> de musica scripta Bellermanniana) neither Priscianus and Martianus
> Capella, which mention it, are clear enough. So we really can't say
> whether it was a strong or a soft stress. :-)

If I were going to have just one symbol to indicate stress, I'd make
it strong :-).

And thank you for this thorough and encompassing explanation. I have
learned a lot :-). Perhaps you should think about reformatting all
the text above to create an article for The Eagle...

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

In a message dated 1/11/04 7:56:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
princeps_senator@... writes:

Salve.

> If my understanding of the Cursus Honorum is correct, would this not mean
> that either the Plebeians were allowed to skip the Praetorship and go straight
> to the Consulship, or did the Patricians just please the masses by granting
> a power they would be unable to attain? It just seems odd that the Patricians
> would not have allowed the Praetorship (i.e. another step closer to the top,
> but not yet the top) before they allowed the Consulship, but then again, I
> am nothing of a psychologist either.
>

Salvete
Very true. That sort of puzzled my class on Republican Institutions as well.
We have several possibilities
1. The Honorum was not formalized until after 300, when the Plebes had access
to all offices.
2. The monk copying the manuscript transposed the information. We have seen
this phenomena several times in extant manuscripts.

We know for sure that by 197, it was legalized, (Livius and Tullius) and the
Lex Villia (180) set age requirements.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete M'. Constantine omnesque.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

>> Am I wrong?
>
> So, yes, you are... (how pitiles I am!)

Please have mercy, oh terrible musician! :-)

> (just kidding, of course ;-) )

Yes, yes. We all know that you have *that* kind of tendencies ;-).

> You are right as to the definition of "sharp", but as I wrote you
> must consider that between E and F (mi and fa), as well as between
> B and C (si and do) there is one semitone only. So sharp E (diesis
> Mi) has the same sound of F (Fa). And, of course, sharp B has the
> same sound of C.
> But we can say this only within the area of the tempered system,
> which is the one we use today.

I forgot completely about the tempered system (in which, as you say,
there is no semitone between E and F). That is the problem of
thinking about tones from a physical perspective - you tend to forget
that there is more behind them than simple frequencies.

> In the Greek system sharp E was higher than E, but not F yet.
> I hope it is clearer now :-)

It is much clearer; thank you!

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

Salve Manius Constantius et alii:

(text snipped)

Could one purchase the CD containing your compositions, which was
distributed at the Rally in 2002?

Bene valete
Pompeia

On Sunday, January 11, 2004, at 11:37 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> A while back I switched to alto & tenor recorder.

Diana! Sister! I wish I'd known -- we could have had a recorder jam at
Roman Days!

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@...

I would be interested in purchasing one as well, and supporting a fellow
citizen!!

Gaius Modius

In a message dated 1/12/2004 8:04:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
scriba_forum@... writes:
Salve Manius Constantius et alii:

(text snipped)

Could one purchase the CD containing your compositions, which was
distributed at the Rally in 2002?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVE POMPEIA CORNELIA, SALVETE OMNES

Yes, you are right: the "Syllan State", as it was called, was
definetely disbanded by Pompeius and Crassus when they were Consuls
together in 70 b.C. So they gave back to Tribuni all the power they
had before Sylla; they removed all the judicial power owned by
Senators, giving part of it to Equites and Tribuni Aerarii.

BENE VALE
L IUL SULLA
Accensus Consulis Asturis
Candidate for Quaestor



-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:

> Salve Fabius Maximus Proconsul:
>
> (article snipped for brevity and bandwidth conservation)
>
> In your historical extrapolation you indicated that the return on

the

> Tribunes to pre Sullan status was Lapedus in 78-77. I thought this
> was done during the consulship of Pompeius Magnus and M. Lucinius
> Crassus during approximately the same time, atleast in the same

decade.

>
> Am I confused? Perhaps we are not talking about the same things?
>
> Pompeia

AVETE POMPEIA CORNELIA ET G MODI ATHANASI

I guess there was a misunderstanding. The CD we gave as a gift to
the participants to the NR Rally in 2002 contained several
compositions (in particular Synaulia and Marshall) and, among, them,
the anthem I wrote for Provincia Italia.
However, I am making a CD with my compositions only (and they are
*roman* compositions). I still have to register them for the
copyrights, but after that I'll be glad to send you a copy.
Well, I should thank you, as now I shall speed up things. Otherwhise
who knows when I'd finish! ;-)

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio

Salve;

Once you get the CD finished you should place a link on the macellum site of
the NR website so people can order copies. I would be happy to pass the word,
as I am sure most Nova Romans would as well. I thinks its great that you
have this talent! I look forward to hearing your work.

Vale;

Gaius Modius

In a message dated 1/12/2004 9:11:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mcserapio@... writes:
However, I am making a CD with my compositions only (and they are
*roman* compositions). I still have to register them for the
copyrights, but after that I'll be glad to send you a copy.
Well, I should thank you, as now I shall speed up things. Otherwhise
who knows when I'd finish! ;-)

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

I'll add my voice to that!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Salve;
>
> Once you get the CD finished you should place a link on the
macellum site of
> the NR website so people can order copies. I would be happy to
pass the word,
> as I am sure most Nova Romans would as well. I thinks its great
that you
> have this talent! I look forward to hearing your work.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius
>
> In a message dated 1/12/2004 9:11:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> mcserapio@y... writes:
> However, I am making a CD with my compositions only (and they are
> *roman* compositions). I still have to register them for the
> copyrights, but after that I'll be glad to send you a copy.
> Well, I should thank you, as now I shall speed up things.
Otherwhise
> who knows when I'd finish! ;-)
>
> OPTIME VALETE
> Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

The questions on Tribunes as Senators by Lucius Quintius Constantius
and Gaius Modius raised several interesting issues. I thank them as
well as Pompeia Coenelia, Quintius Fabius, Gaius Iulius Scaurus and
others who have commented.

I was most interested in the questions of (1) were many tribunes in
antiquity also Senators, and (2) the methods by which men entered
the Senate.

Pompeia stated that Marcus Livius Drusus was not a Senator and
Quintius Fabius that the Gracchi were not in the Senate. I wonder
how do we know this for certain? Is this information included in
the fasti?

My research tells me Livius was both a quaestor and an aedile before
attaining the Tribunate, so I wonder that he was not in the Senate.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

---


Salvete Gai Popilli et Omnes:

I should perhaps qualify my prior words concerning M. Livius Drusus
Tribunus Plebis, which were "it seems" that he was not (a Senator).
By that, I simply was agreeing with the more learned Fabius Maximus on
his assertion that he was not, as I cannot find any evidence to the
contrary.

I am inclined to believe he was not. Fabius' statement tweaked my
curiosity and I did some research on him in response to his statement.
In the several detailed articles I read just from the search engines,
some quoting antique historians, and some not, none of them mention
him as being a Senator. They mention him as being a member of the
Senatorial Party, which were the conservatives, but that didn't
necessarily mean one was a Senator. His father, however, was a
Censor, so I imagine *he* was a Senator. I guess the closest we could
say is that he came from a Senatorial familia.

As for how much we know for sure about the personalities of
antiquita.... Well, we are examining accounts that are ages old,
which leaves for alot of speculation and second guessing.
Drusus may well have been, but if he was, he is not being given any
credit for it based on current historical writeups that I've seen.

Had he not been murdered, we assume but cannot be sure, for what was
received as radical behaviour by the Senators and Senatorial
sympathetics, with respect to his position regarding Italian
enfranchisement, he would likely, in my opinion, have become a Senator.

I just don't want you to think I was making a definitive statement.
No, I just didn't or still don't have enough evidence to assert that
he was a Senator. And, being the statesman that he was, I guess it is
just easy to, well, kind of 'assume' he was in the Senate. I did,
until I looked :)

Bene valete,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@b...>
wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The questions on Tribunes as Senators by Lucius Quintius Constantius
> and Gaius Modius raised several interesting issues. I thank them as
> well as Pompeia Coenelia, Quintius Fabius, Gaius Iulius Scaurus and
> others who have commented.
>
> I was most interested in the questions of (1) were many tribunes in
> antiquity also Senators, and (2) the methods by which men entered
> the Senate.
>
> Pompeia stated that Marcus Livius Drusus was not a Senator and
> Quintius Fabius that the Gracchi were not in the Senate. I wonder
> how do we know this for certain? Is this information included in
> the fasti?
>
> My research tells me Livius was both a quaestor and an aedile before
> attaining the Tribunate, so I wonder that he was not in the Senate.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas

Edictum VI

Ex Officio Propraetoris Britanniae.

Edictum Propraetoricium concerning the provincial
administration of Britannia.

I. Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus is hereby
confirmed as legatus for regio Britannia Superior.

II. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given on January 12th, in the year of the consulship
of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,
2757 AUC.

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.



________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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-----Original Message-----
From : Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@...>
To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 11 January 2004 00:32:19
Subject : [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Music
Salvete Quirites.

>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, me-in-@d... wrote:
>> There is a one-note difference between the Gregorian and Ancient
>> modes, I can't rmember whiuch way but they all have to shift one
>> place.
>
>Thank you. I didn't know that :-).
>

To expand on this, I /think/ the explanation is that there are 7 separate notes in an octave, the 8th starting a new octave. I understand that the Greek terminology was reversed from ours, so a 'low' note would be shriller than a 'high' one and that they counted down the octave instead of up. That would mean that a mode described in ancient terms running down, say C',B,A,G,F,E,D would be perceived in 'modern' terms as running up from D to C' and repeat from D'. Given modern equal-tempered tuning, it is not as simple as finding the appropriate black notes to transpose your Lydian to start at F or something. The second note of a mode starting up from D would be fractionally different from the 3rd of a mode starting at C. This remains true until the 19th century and probably the complications of keyboard instruments having to be retuned for perfect harmony replaced by Bach's 'even-tempered klavier', ie not fixed to any single perfect harmony..

"Lao Tsu says those those who know do not tell while who tell do not know, So how come Lao Tsu wrote 5,000 words?" - Chinese critic.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Probably an oblong Greek Himation.

-----Original Message-----
From : Bryan Reif <brcincy@...>
To : nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 12 January 2004 02:06:21
Subject : [Nova-Roma] Roman Clothing
Salvete:

>
>Having watched I Claudius, I noticed different types af clothing and attire
>for Roman men. Everyone wore a tunic, however, there seemed to be two types
>of garment worn over the tunic. One obviously was a toga, wrapped around
>the body, and unclasped. The other was also a piece of cloth that was
>draped over one shoulder, and allowed to hang over the body, and clasped at
>the shoulder, hanging down almost to the ankle. What is this? It is
>different froma toga, and (if the film is to be beleived)worn more than the
>toga.
>
>If anyone has information, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Vale:
>
>Quintus Bianchius Rufinus
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed
>experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

"Lao Tsu says those those who know do not tell while who tell do not know, So how come Lao Tsu wrote 5,000 words?" - Chinese critic.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete M'. Constantine et omnes.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<mcserapio@y...> wrote:

> AVETE POMPEIA CORNELIA ET G MODI ATHANASI
>
> I guess there was a misunderstanding. The CD we gave as a gift to
> the participants to the NR Rally in 2002 contained several
> compositions (in particular Synaulia and Marshall) and, among,
> them, the anthem I wrote for Provincia Italia.
> However, I am making a CD with my compositions only (and they are
> *roman* compositions). I still have to register them for the
> copyrights, but after that I'll be glad to send you a copy.
> Well, I should thank you, as now I shall speed up things.
> Otherwhise who knows when I'd finish! ;-)

Please send it to me as well. We will arrange payment in one of the
European meetings this summer :-).

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

Salvete omnes.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, me-in-@d... wrote:
> To expand on this, I /think/ the explanation is that there are 7
> separate notes in an octave, the 8th starting a new octave. I
> understand that the Greek terminology was reversed from ours, so
> a 'low' note would be shriller than a 'high' one and that they
> counted down the octave instead of up. That would mean that a mode
> described in ancient terms running down, say C',B,A,G,F,E,D would
> be perceived in 'modern' terms as running up from D to C' and
> repeat from D'. Given modern equal-tempered tuning, it is not as
> simple as finding the appropriate black notes to transpose your
> Lydian to start at F or something. The second note of a mode
> starting up from D would be fractionally different from the 3rd of
> a mode starting at C. This remains true until the 19th century and
> probably the complications of keyboard instruments having to be
> retuned for perfect harmony replaced by Bach's 'even-tempered
> klavier', ie not fixed to any single perfect harmony..

Not to mention that the lack of a theorical tuning might have
included further variation in the way a musical piece was played,
even without taking into account the Greco-Roman tradition of
improvisation.

It must have been damn difficult to be a musician back then :-).

S.V.B.E.E.V.
CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus S.P.D.

Since Nova Roma creates Senators based on merit and service, there is one point that may explain why some men in Old Rome who had been aediles and quaestors were not elevated to the Senate-the property requirement. A Senator had to have property and wealth of 1,000,000 sesterces or more to qualify for that body and they could not be involved "in trade" after elevation. A Roman Knight was required to have wealth of 400,000 sesterces to qualify for that rank and many knights who could have been Senators declined it because they would have to give up their trade. Nero, in a quest for wealth to finance his Golden Palace, took healthy bribes from rich knights so they could avoid being forced into the Senate. Of course, by Nero's reign the advantage of being a Senator was far less than it had been 125 years earlier unless you were appointed to be a provincial governor of a settled province and could feather your nest with bribes and kick backs.

One of the Galeria who served as consul during 68 C.E. was a plebian but it is not known if he was a Senator. Since he contributed to help restore the Great Drain in Rome during his consulship, it was obvious that he was very wealthy.

By the Middle Imperial period, the strain on the decurio and equestrian class to continue their civic responsibilities was becoming so great (and the prohibition on being in trade had been relaxed) that anyone who could afford to buy their way into the Senate would do so to avoid being ruined.

When Diocletianus created a caste system in the late third century, the honor of being a local decurion had become an onus. By the mid-fourth century C.E., many members of the decurio class were joining the Church, the Army, or were just running away to avoid their civic responsibilities.

Personally, I am very pleased to see a Tribune of the Plebs serving as a Senator since he can do more than just listen to the deliberations of the Senate but can debate on behalf of the Plebs.

Vale.

-----Original Message-----
From : Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@...>
To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 12 January 2004 19:06:15
Subject : [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Music
Salvete omnes.

>
>It must have been damn difficult to be a musician back then :-).
>

A bit like punk though - equally hard for anybody to say you'd got it actually wrong.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<I. Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus is hereby
<confirmed as legatus for regio Britannia Superior.

Congratulations to my 'brother in spirit' Laureatus! Yet another Moravii in a long family
tradition of service to this republic!

Vale,
Diana

Salvete Omnes,

There is one point being overlooked in the debate over the Tribunes of
Antiquita. In many cases it didn't matter if they were already Senators
or not, because they intended to become Senators and were just using the
Tribune's office as a means of achiving that goal. The year as a Tribune
was just a step towards that life long appointment as a Senator, and
that would result in many of them having the same outlook towards the
Senate as they would have if they were already Senators when they were
became Tribunes. You don't harm an institution you are trying to become
a member of.

L. Sicinius Drusus

SALVE F GALERI AURELI SECUNDE

> Personally, I am very pleased to see a Tribune of the Plebs
>serving as a Senator since he can do more than just listen to the
>deliberations of the Senate but can debate on behalf of the Plebs.

I totally agree with your last comment, that is the essence of your
mail.
But we have to note that in Republican age the rule according to
Senators had to be "rich", but could not be involved in trade, was
often omitted. I rember M. Licinius Crassus (the one of the disaster
of Carrae), one of the richest man in Rome, not just for having put
his money in a bank!
If that was the rule, it sometimes appeared simply "diaphanous"!

BENE VALE
L IUL SULLA

SALVETE OMNES

I recommend you all the following interesting web link.
It talks briefly about Etruscan influence on Rome: the two cultures
(Etruscans in decline, Rome in growth) had many important contacts
in VIII-V C. b.C., not only of war!

Link: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2392/rometur.html

BENE VALETE
L IUL SULLA

I haven't seen I Claudius in quite some time. The identification
chiefly depends on the size of the garment, as both were worn
similarly. The chlamys was smaller and oblong (generally one side was
twice the length of the other) while the himation was square and used
more as an outdoors wrap.

-----Original Message-----
From: me-in-@... [mailto:me-in-@...]
Sent: Monday, 12 January, 2004 13:15
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman Clothing


Probably an oblong Greek Himation.

-----Original Message-----
From : Bryan Reif <brcincy@...>
To : nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 12 January 2004 02:06:21
Subject : [Nova-Roma] Roman Clothing
Salvete:

>
>Having watched I Claudius, I noticed different types af clothing and

attire

>for Roman men. Everyone wore a tunic, however, there seemed to be

two types

>of garment worn over the tunic. One obviously was a toga, wrapped

around

>the body, and unclasped. The other was also a piece of cloth that

was

>draped over one shoulder, and allowed to hang over the body, and

clasped at

>the shoulder, hanging down almost to the ankle. What is this? It is
>different froma toga, and (if the film is to be beleived)worn more

than the

>toga.
>
>If anyone has information, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Vale:
>
>Quintus Bianchius Rufinus
>

Salve Q. Fabi,

> Very true. That sort of puzzled my class on Republican Institutions as well.
> We have several possibilities
> 1. The Honorum was not formalized until after 300, when the Plebes had access
> to all offices.
> 2. The monk copying the manuscript transposed the information. We have seen
> this phenomena several times in extant manuscripts.
>
> We know for sure that by 197, it was legalized, (Livius and Tullius) and the
> Lex Villia (180) set age requirements.

Well, if nothing else, we know the confusion was by no error on your part! And in any case, you just gave me more material on which I can correct my Ancient Civilizations teacher (who also teaches Latin)!

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is pridie Idus Ianuarii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is Idus Ianuarii; the day is nefastus publicus. The Idus was
sacred to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus; the Flamen Dialis sacrificed a
white ewe to Iuppiter on each Idus.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland":

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html

This essay by Richard Warner (Keeper of Archaeology and Ethnography at
the Ulster Museum) first appeared in _British Archaeology_ 14 (May 1996).

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Salvete:

Thanks for the information. It was helpful. I am trying to research to put
together attire for historical reenactments. A toga seems too cumbersome
for me, a plain citizen, but a pallium, or a himation, or even a lacerna may
be the way to go.

Q. Bianchius Rufinus

_________________________________________________________________
Find high-speed �net deals � comparison-shop your local providers here.
https://broadband.msn.com

Salve G. Iuli Scaure, amice!

Tis music to me ears! Perhaps I may have some Ancient Roman blood in
me afterall!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Kelly marconame!)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to "Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland":
>
> http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html
>
> This essay by Richard Warner (Keeper of Archaeology and Ethnography
at
> the Ulster Museum) first appeared in _British Archaeology_ 14 (May
1996).
>
> Valete.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Salve Scaure;
thank you for that excellent article. The fantasy of an untouched
Celtic Ireland is exactly that. There are Roman artifacts from
archeological finds here in the South that are literally hidden away
to protect this myth.
If our propraetor reshows this would be a perfect discussion for
the Hiberni as well as lecture.
vale Fabia Vera (Hiberniensis)


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...> wrote:

> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to "Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland":
>
> http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html
>
> This essay by Richard Warner (Keeper of Archaeology and Ethnography

at

> the Ulster Museum) first appeared in _British Archaeology_ 14 (May

1996).

>
> Valete.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Salve,

I always thought that the Romans never set foot in Ireland was just a
myth. It never made much sense to me to think that if the Romans
could cross the English Channel there was no reason they couldn't or
didn't cross the Irish Sea. Besides, being of Irish descent I
always found the myth as an insult that Ireland wasn't worth invading. <G>

Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salve Scaure;
> thank you for that excellent article. The fantasy of an untouched
> Celtic Ireland is exactly that. There are Roman artifacts from
> archeological finds here in the South that are literally hidden away
> to protect this myth.
> If our propraetor reshows this would be a perfect discussion for
> the Hiberni as well as lecture.
> vale Fabia Vera (Hiberniensis)
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...> wrote:
> > G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
> >
> > Salvete, Quirites.
> >
> > Here's a link to "Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland":
> >
> > http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html
> >
> > This essay by Richard Warner (Keeper of Archaeology and Ethnography
> at
> > the Ulster Museum) first appeared in _British Archaeology_ 14 (May
> 1996).
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > G. Iulius Scaurus

Salvete omnes,

I remember there was a short lived series on TV called "Roar" in the
mid 90's about the Irish guerilla fighting invading Romans. I that it
was all a crock of nonsense but here is a case where perhaps the
producers and directors were thinking ahead and perhaps correct for a
change.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@a...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> I always thought that the Romans never set foot in Ireland was just

a

> myth. It never made much sense to me to think that if the Romans
> could cross the English Channel there was no reason they couldn't or
> didn't cross the Irish Sea. Besides, being of Irish descent I
> always found the myth as an insult that Ireland wasn't worth

invading. <G>

>
> Calvus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>

wrote:

> > Salve Scaure;
> > thank you for that excellent article. The fantasy of an

untouched

> > Celtic Ireland is exactly that. There are Roman artifacts from
> > archeological finds here in the South that are literally hidden

away

> > to protect this myth.
> > If our propraetor reshows this would be a perfect discussion

for

> > the Hiberni as well as lecture.
> > vale Fabia Vera (Hiberniensis)
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...>

wrote:

> > > G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
> > >
> > > Salvete, Quirites.
> > >
> > > Here's a link to "Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland":
> > >
> > > http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html
> > >
> > > This essay by Richard Warner (Keeper of Archaeology and

Ethnography

> > at
> > > the Ulster Museum) first appeared in _British Archaeology_ 14

(May

> > 1996).
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > > G. Iulius Scaurus

Salve Romans

FYI

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


In a message dated 1/11/2004 10:42:36 AM Central America Standard Ti, mufon-sa@... writes:


Subway excavations in Naples turn up ancient Roman ship, amphorae
Thu Jan 8, 1:48 PM ET

NAPLES (AP) - Italian archeologists have discovered a Roman ship and
hundreds of amphorae dating to the second century during excavation works
for a new subway in the southern city of Naples.

The discoveries, which were detailed on Thursday, will help shed light on
ancient life in the Mediterranean port city, the archeologists said. "They
will help us understand the circulation of goods in Naples and the city's
everyday life," said Daniela Giampaola, an archeologist in charge of the
excavations.

The 13-metre-deep digging turned up wooden pieces belonging to piers in the
one-time port, as well as intact amphorae and other crockery pieces,
believed to have fallen off the ships while being unloaded.

Amphorae are slender, two-handled terra cotta storage containers popular in
Roman times to ship or store wine, condiments and other popular items.

Also found by the ship were soles of seafarers' shoes. Experts said that
soles were either lost or tossed away when the shoes were no longer good.

The 10-metre-long vessel sank, probably due to floods, in the second
century, said Giampaola. It is expected to be well preserved, thanks to the
silt that created an airless environment that prevented decomposition.

However, it will take months to take it out of the mud.

Giampaola said that over the course of the centuries waves of mud, silt and
landslides from surrounding hills have filled up the basin and created a
swamp.

The discoveries were the latest to emerge from the excavation works.
Elsewhere in the city, the digging has turned up remnants of a building also
dating to the Roman Empire, which is still being excavated, and a
12th-century fountain.

City officials are considering setting up a museum near one of the new
subway stations to host the artifacts.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1856&ncid=737&e=6&u=/cpress/20040108/ca_pr_on_wo/italy_ancient_ship





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I have been informed by the former Dominus Factionis that the Factio
Veneta Yahoo group has been taken down. If there are members of
Factio Veneta who wish to continue, I have reestablished the Factio
group at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factio_veneta

The first order of business will be selection of a Dominus Factio.
Please feel free to sign up. Once a Dominus Factionis has been
selected, I shall turn moderation of the group over to him/her.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis

Salvete omnes,

Hanks tipped for Roman invasion movie

Tom Hanks could star in a movie about the Roman invasion of Britain.

Director Michael Mann reportedly wants the Saving Private Ryan star
to appear as Julius Caesar.

The film is likely to be made in Scotland and Ireland next year.

Sets depicting ancient Rome are expected to be built at Shepperton
Studios.

The story focuses on Caesar's military triumphs and conflicts with
Pompey the Great in the first century BC.

Kate Winslet, Sian Phillips and Dame Diana Rigg are being tipped to
feature in the movie, along with Jude Law, Robert Carlyle and Colin
Firth.

Matthew McConaughey and Tom Sizemore are among the American stars
tipped to make the trip the Europe for the film.


Story filed: 14:04 Tuesday 7th May 2002

Check for more on:
Michael Mann
Tom Hanks
Films
Entertainment
UK
US

Stupid is as stupid does!


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Well if Jude Law gets crusified, it will make for a
great movie. ;) <still upset for what he did to
Enemy at the Gates> Do you have a preliminary name
for the movie that we can look into?

Marcus Africanus


--- "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
<mjk@...> wrote:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> Hanks tipped for Roman invasion movie
>
> Tom Hanks could star in a movie about the Roman
> invasion of Britain.
>
> Director Michael Mann reportedly wants the Saving
> Private Ryan star
> to appear as Julius Caesar.
>
> The film is likely to be made in Scotland and
> Ireland next year.
>
> Sets depicting ancient Rome are expected to be built
> at Shepperton
> Studios.
>
> The story focuses on Caesar's military triumphs and
> conflicts with
> Pompey the Great in the first century BC.
>
> Kate Winslet, Sian Phillips and Dame Diana Rigg are
> being tipped to
> feature in the movie, along with Jude Law, Robert
> Carlyle and Colin
> Firth.
>
> Matthew McConaughey and Tom Sizemore are among the
> American stars
> tipped to make the trip the Europe for the film.
>
>
> Story filed: 14:04 Tuesday 7th May 2002
>
> Check for more on:
> Michael Mann
> Tom Hanks
> Films
> Entertainment
> UK
> US
>
> Stupid is as stupid does!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

Salve, Bianchi Rufine.

A toga was *the* garment for a roman citizen. It was not only a
garment, it was the viewable sign that one was a roman citizen. Even
plain citizens had usually a toga.

Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Reif" <brcincy@h...> wrote:
> Salvete:
>
> Thanks for the information. It was helpful. I am trying to
research to put
> together attire for historical reenactments. A toga seems too
cumbersome
> for me, a plain citizen, but a pallium, or a himation, or even a
lacerna may
> be the way to go.
>
> Q. Bianchius Rufinus
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find high-speed `net deals — comparison-shop your local providers
here.
> https://broadband.msn.com

---

Salvete Quinte Calve et omnes:

I agree that it stands to reason that they 'must' have visited the
lands of Shanties and Lepraucans (spelling?), given their proximity to
Britannia.

I haven't looked at Iulius Scaurus' link yet, but one element of
thought that sticks out in my mind, is how well, or how poorly
demarcated the actual boundaries were between Britannia and Hibernia
in the days of geographers of antiquita...likely a few feet this way
one year, and a few feet the other way the next year....and whose
'feet':). So it is likely, that in 'one of those years' they were
truly in Ireland as we know her geographically today. Also
archeological evidence produces even more probable thought, as I
believe Pomponia et al have pointed out.

Valete,
Po
(and may you be in hell/hades a half an hour before the devil [if you
have one] knows you're dead)....old Irish saying, well sort of :)

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@a...>
wrote:

> Salve,
>
> I always thought that the Romans never set foot in Ireland was just a
> myth. It never made much sense to me to think that if the Romans
> could cross the English Channel there was no reason they couldn't or
> didn't cross the Irish Sea. Besides, being of Irish descent I
> always found the myth as an insult that Ireland wasn't worth

invading. <G>

>
> Calvus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Scaure;
> > thank you for that excellent article. The fantasy of an untouched
> > Celtic Ireland is exactly that. There are Roman artifacts from
> > archeological finds here in the South that are literally hidden away
> > to protect this myth.
> > If our propraetor reshows this would be a perfect discussion for
> > the Hiberni as well as lecture.
> > vale Fabia Vera (Hiberniensis)
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...> wrote:
> > > G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
> > >
> > > Salvete, Quirites.
> > >
> > > Here's a link to "Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland":
> > >
> > > http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html
> > >
> > > This essay by Richard Warner (Keeper of Archaeology and Ethnography
> > at
> > > the Ulster Museum) first appeared in _British Archaeology_ 14 (May
> > 1996).
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > > G. Iulius Scaurus

Salvete Omnes:

In my last post on this thread I think my brain was on vacation. In
my sleeping mind I was thinking geographically more of Scotland than
Ireland, completely ignoring the Irish Sea.

So much for my thoughts on geographical boundaries.

Po gives it a good shake....ahh
:) Pompeia

Salve,

Sounds fantastic. Tom Hanks as Caesar? I wonder what he'll look like with curly blonde hair?

Need more Roman films out there, surprised there aren't as many, plenty of events to depict.

Vale.

O. Flavius Pompeius




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
- New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

Hmmm. Tom Hanks a the Divined Gaius Iulius Caesar......Im not picturing
it. What color hair did Caesar have? Was it blonde?

BENE.VALE.
MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
GNAEVS.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.
OPTIO.SODALITATIS.MILITARIUM.
NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---Salvete:

Nope. Doesn't work for me at all. He's too mentally type-cast as
Forrest Gump to me for the role of Caesar. After Forest Gump I have a
hard time with Hanks in any serious role. I hope they're kidding....

As Bad as Rex Harrison when he did Caesar with Cleopatra ....ooohhh,
in my mind he was awful...Dr. Doolittle as Caesar.

I think Timothy Dalton was a good Caesar in the last Cleopatra
flick....the one where she looked like Helen of Troy or some Goddess?
Lenora somebody I think was her name.

Actually, Cleopatra, historically painted, was as homely as a hedge fence.

Pompeia






In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Scriboni89@a... wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Hmmm. Tom Hanks a the Divined Gaius Iulius Caesar......Im not

picturing

> it. What color hair did Caesar have? Was it blonde?
>
> BENE.VALE.
> MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
> ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
> GNAEVS.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.
> OPTIO.SODALITATIS.MILITARIUM.
> NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Pompeia,

I agree with you about Hank's role. I've heard some people think that
Ed Harris who is blonde, would make a good Julius Caesar. Here is a
very good site that shows ths characters of this movie along with the
original portraits of Caesar and Cleopatra.



http://www.geocities.com/tdrus2000/KINO_TV/REV_90R/CLEOE.HTM#REV


I think you are right Po, the actress would win hands down in a
beauty contest; still maybe the standards of beauty were quite
different in the ancient world and perhaps Cleopatra was a hell of a
tear in bed. Here is an example; when I watch the movies from the
30's and 40's, I certainly find the make up and hair styles of men
and women very limited and ugly when compared to now; curly or wavy
on the sides, flat on top with or without a big bang on front with
heavy lipstick for the women, shaved or very short at the sides
slicked with grease on the top for men making many look like nazis.
Well, in the lingo of that time Po - Hey sister, get some more broads
to write us on the list today. Ain't enough dames posting these days!
Go on, make it snappy or concete shoes for ya! Savy?

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:

> ---Salvete:
>
> Nope. Doesn't work for me at all. He's too mentally type-cast as
> Forrest Gump to me for the role of Caesar. After Forest Gump I have

a

> hard time with Hanks in any serious role. I hope they're

kidding....

>
> As Bad as Rex Harrison when he did Caesar with Cleopatra ....ooohhh,
> in my mind he was awful...Dr. Doolittle as Caesar.
>
> I think Timothy Dalton was a good Caesar in the last Cleopatra
> flick....the one where she looked like Helen of Troy or some

Goddess?

> Lenora somebody I think was her name.
>
> Actually, Cleopatra, historically painted, was as homely as a hedge

fence.

>
> Pompeia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Scriboni89@a... wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > Hmmm. Tom Hanks a the Divined Gaius Iulius Caesar......Im not
> picturing
> > it. What color hair did Caesar have? Was it blonde?
> >
> > BENE.VALE.
> > MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
> > ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
> > GNAEVS.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.
> > OPTIO.SODALITATIS.MILITARIUM.
> > NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

boungiorno a tutti!

qualcuno di voi sa dove si trova la città o il sito archeologico di
Nuova Roma?

SALVE PAULINE, SALVETE CIVES

The exceptional discover you are talkin' about is also exceptional
because italians archaeologists did not find out only the ship and
some amphorae: they discovered the second arbour of Naples, that was
dismissed, they think, in IV C., with the progressive economical
decline of Italy.

You can find more info at the following site (it's in italian, but
you can translate it with Babelfish: http://world.altavista.com):

http://www.repubblica.it/2004/a/sezioni/spettacoli_e_cultura/scavinapo
li/cervasiio/cervasiio.html

BENE VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Accensus Consulis Asturis
Candidate for Quaestor




-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Romans
>
> FYI
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> In a message dated 1/11/2004 10:42:36 AM Central America Standard

Ti, mufon-sa@i... writes:

>
>
> Subway excavations in Naples turn up ancient Roman ship, amphorae
> Thu Jan 8, 1:48 PM ET
>
> NAPLES (AP) - Italian archeologists have discovered a Roman ship

and

> hundreds of amphorae dating to the second century during

excavation works

> for a new subway in the southern city of Naples.
>
> The discoveries, which were detailed on Thursday, will help shed

light on

> ancient life in the Mediterranean port city, the archeologists

said. "They

> will help us understand the circulation of goods in Naples and

the city's

> everyday life," said Daniela Giampaola, an archeologist in charge

of the

> excavations.
>
> The 13-metre-deep digging turned up wooden pieces belonging to

piers in the

> one-time port, as well as intact amphorae and other crockery

pieces,

> believed to have fallen off the ships while being unloaded.
>
> Amphorae are slender, two-handled terra cotta storage containers

popular in

> Roman times to ship or store wine, condiments and other popular

items.

>
> Also found by the ship were soles of seafarers' shoes. Experts

said that

> soles were either lost or tossed away when the shoes were no

longer good.

>
> The 10-metre-long vessel sank, probably due to floods, in the

second

> century, said Giampaola. It is expected to be well preserved,

thanks to the

> silt that created an airless environment that prevented

decomposition.

>
> However, it will take months to take it out of the mud.
>
> Giampaola said that over the course of the centuries waves of

mud, silt and

> landslides from surrounding hills have filled up the basin and

created a

> swamp.
>
> The discoveries were the latest to emerge from the excavation

works.

> Elsewhere in the city, the digging has turned up remnants of a

building also

> dating to the Roman Empire, which is still being excavated, and a
> 12th-century fountain.
>
> City officials are considering setting up a museum near one of

the new

> subway stations to host the artifacts.
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?

tmpl=story&cid=1856&ncid=737&e=6&u=/cpress/20040108/ca_pr_on_wo/italy_
ancient_ship

>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARCHAEOLOGY_OF_ANCIENT_ROME/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ARCHAEOLOGY_OF_ANCIENT_ROME-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

Just a quick message to apologize for being away not
only, as I predicted, over the weekend but also on
Monday, when I was stricken with a stomach-bug.
Thankfully it lasted only a day, and I seem now to be
in good health.

Thanks to Consul Astur for fielding Fabia Vera
Attica's question about the elections.

________________________________________________________________________
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your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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A. Apollonius Cordus to Censor K. Fabius Quintilianus
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

I hope you're well; I'm well.

Many thanks for clearing that up. I hope now that
things have settled down a little your colleague will
have more time to consult you before acting on such matters.

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I'll try to make a small contribution to this
discussion, though I see we have many more learned
citizens on the case already.

Firstly I'd like to second Senator Drusus' point,
which is an important one: the fact that such-and-such
a historical tribune was not a senator during his
tribunate doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't find
it in his own interests to support the senate; that's
why the tribunate, despite its theoretically vast
powers, didn't become a problem for the senate until
the Gracchi. In many ways it's remarkable that Ti.
Gracchus didn't go with the flow: with his lineage
he'd have been consul and probably censor with ease,
if he'd just gone with the flow.

Anyway, that's already been said. My main point is
this: there's some evidence to suggest that a senator
who was serving as a magistrate was considered
'suspended', as it were, from the senate during his
term of office. He could still attend, of course,
owing to his magistracy, but when the senators spoke
(they were called to speak in order of seniority) he
would speak not in his usual place but among the first
set of speakers, the serving magistrates. Presumably
he would still have voted.

If this interpretation is correct (and I admit I'm not
certain whether it applied to non-curule magistrates),
then in fact a serving tribune is not technically a
senator, and nor is any other serving magistrate. This
may seem like a technical point that solves nothing,
but, as Senator Drusus has pointed out, the
independence of the tribunes was often a mere
technicality in any case.

The crucial question, I suppose, is this: should a
tribune who is a senator be permitted to speak in the
senate of Nova Roma (since he or she is a senator) or
not (since he or she is a tribune)? If I'm right that
serving magistrates were not considered to be senators
during their term, presumably the answer ought to be
that the tribune is a tribune and therefore may not
speak in the senate.

________________________________________________________________________
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Salve Rufino,

If you are portraying a citizen, remember for historical authenticity
that all Roman male citizens were entitled to wear the toga, and saw
the wearing of the toga as a privilege that distinguished them from
non-citizens. Non-citizens were expressly forbidden from wearing the
toga. Vergil described Romans as "the toga wearing race," and the word
_togatus_ "toga-wearer" could be used as a synonym for "citizen" (or
"civilian", as opposed to _sagatus_ "sagum-wearer" meaning "soldier" )
.

Men were required to wear it conducting business in the forum, in the
law courts, and in temples, and when performing certain duties. You
can think of it as the Roman equivalent of a business suit combined
with the Sunday suit. Although some togae, especially in the Imperial
period were big and bulky, a "plain citizen" would have worn a simple
and unostentatious garment of unbleached wool. You can make yours the
minimum size (5 yards by 4 yards ) and use the lightest wool to make
it comfortable for you.

TAS

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Reif [mailto:brcincy@...]
Sent: Monday, 12 January, 2004 20:33
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Roman Clothing


Salvete:

Thanks for the information. It was helpful. I am trying to research
to put
together attire for historical reenactments. A toga seems too
cumbersome
for me, a plain citizen, but a pallium, or a himation, or even a
lacerna may
be the way to go.

Q. Bianchius Rufinus

There was probably little in the way of Irish Sea constant contact because of the unfriendly terrain on the Welsh side. Rome obviously never ruled there sufficiently to replace Celtic with Latin. Normandy is an entirely differnt affair, flat and easy to get to. Also of course the English Channel at that point is half the width of the Irish Sea. Where there might also have been contacts but nobody seems to have looked, is Galway. There was a mediaeval Templar route from Spain up the West of Ireland to Galloway avoiding Welsh pirates. There might also have been shipping with Cornwall. The longer routes would be safer from both pirates and inshore hazards as well as choppy seas. All the same, Britain provided metals, especially tin and copper for what was still largely Bronze Age implements except for weapons, and Mendip lead used in large quantities along with the silver found with it. The iron deposits don't seem to have been worked

>
>Caesariensis.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
>To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Date : 13 January 2004 02:35:28
>Subject : [Nova-Roma] Re: Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland
>Salve,
>>
>>I always thought that the Romans never set foot in Ireland was just a
>>myth. It never made much sense to me to think that if the Romans
>>could cross the English Channel there was no reason they couldn't or
>>didn't cross the Irish Sea. Besides, being of Irish descent I
>>always found the myth as an insult that Ireland wasn't worth invading. <G>
>>
>
>
>¡°Lao Tsu says those those who know do not tell while who tell do not know, So how come Lao Tsu wrote 5,000 words?¡° - Chinese critic.
>
>
>
>--
>Personalised email by http://another.com

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From : me-in-@...
To : nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 13 January 2004 18:35:01
Subject : Re: [Nova-Roma] The Romans Did Invade Ireland
When it comes to Scotland - which wasn't then because the Scoti were still in Ulster - just north of Hadrian's Wall we get to the Uotadini. After everything fell apart, the name develops through Gwodadin to Gododdin. It is in the now Welsh but thought to be Cumbrian Y Gododdin of 600 that we first hear the reference ¡°A good warrior but not Arthur¡°. So was Arthur ever a Romaniser or part of a Celtic New Order that follows on from Uortigern 'the usurper' after Ambroisius Aurelius 'last of the Romans'? It is even possible that Uortigern and Arthur (Artorius) could just be dialectical variants of the same title given that Uortigern would be pronounced something like Worthiern

>

Caesariensis

>-----Original Message-----
>From : pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@...>
>To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Date : 13 January 2004 04:30:22
>Subject : [Nova-Roma] The Romans Did Invade Ireland
>Salvete Omnes:
>>
>>In my last post on this thread I think my brain was on vacation. In
>>my sleeping mind I was thinking geographically more of Scotland than
>>Ireland, completely ignoring the Irish Sea.
>>
>
>
>¡°Lao Tsu says those those who know do not tell while who tell do not know, So how come Lao Tsu wrote 5,000 words?¡° - Chinese critic.
>
>
>
>--
>Personalised email by http://another.com

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

I think this discussion, interesting and informative though it was,
all evolved from the good suggestion that Diana Octavia be admitted
in future. Yes Diana "was" tribune but her office expired January
1st, 2004. She was then officially adopted by the Octavian family and
is now a Patrician. She did her job as Tribune Of The Plebs and is
now free to go where she pleases in government other than the
tribune's office again.I see no conflicts of interest at all if that
is what some had in mind.

This comment is an after thought and not a reply to your post below
Appoloni.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> I'll try to make a small contribution to this
> discussion, though I see we have many more learned
> citizens on the case already.
>
> Firstly I'd like to second Senator Drusus' point,
> which is an important one: the fact that such-and-such
> a historical tribune was not a senator during his
> tribunate doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't find
> it in his own interests to support the senate; that's
> why the tribunate, despite its theoretically vast
> powers, didn't become a problem for the senate until
> the Gracchi. In many ways it's remarkable that Ti.
> Gracchus didn't go with the flow: with his lineage
> he'd have been consul and probably censor with ease,
> if he'd just gone with the flow.
>
> Anyway, that's already been said. My main point is
> this: there's some evidence to suggest that a senator
> who was serving as a magistrate was considered
> 'suspended', as it were, from the senate during his
> term of office. He could still attend, of course,
> owing to his magistracy, but when the senators spoke
> (they were called to speak in order of seniority) he
> would speak not in his usual place but among the first
> set of speakers, the serving magistrates. Presumably
> he would still have voted.
>
> If this interpretation is correct (and I admit I'm not
> certain whether it applied to non-curule magistrates),
> then in fact a serving tribune is not technically a
> senator, and nor is any other serving magistrate. This
> may seem like a technical point that solves nothing,
> but, as Senator Drusus has pointed out, the
> independence of the tribunes was often a mere
> technicality in any case.
>
> The crucial question, I suppose, is this: should a
> tribune who is a senator be permitted to speak in the
> senate of Nova Roma (since he or she is a senator) or
> not (since he or she is a tribune)? If I'm right that
> serving magistrates were not considered to be senators
> during their term, presumably the answer ought to be
> that the tribune is a tribune and therefore may not
> speak in the senate.
>
>

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