----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: I want a NR "SPQR" flag who can help?


Salvete Quirites,

L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave!
>
> I already knew who you were talking about. Complaints about merchants
> in the Macellum have been nothing new. I have dealt with them as Censor
> and as a private citizen.

And I dealt with them last year as Curule Aedile, and I know that this
year's Curule Aediles are also dealing with them even now.

I happen to know that the current Aedilis Curalis are on the verge of
publishing an edictum that will address some of this. They are also
already pursuing long term solutions to the problems that have occured
over the last several years.

So I ask you all to permit the Aedilis Curalis to have just a few more
days in which to prepare a statement for the People about their progress
and their intentions. I assure you the matter is being addressed, and
is being taken very seriously. There are reasons of propriety and
confidentiality that have prevented any public mention until now.

Valete,

-- Marinus



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----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


Salve Romans

That's just it!

I do not want the funds SPENT I want them invested for the LONG term.

Are you saying the Senate can not and will not set up and investment fund?


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Julilla Sempronia Magna
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


I regularly donate to Nova Roma, however, I make no designation of how the
funds are to be spent. That, I believe, would tie the Senate's hands, and I
want the funds to be spent where they are most needed.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Factio Praesina
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher [mailto:spqr753@...]
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:42 AM
To: Nova-Roma
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


Salve Romans

I would like to suggest that the first item Nova Roma needs is money. To
that end I will send in $100.00 to a special fund that the Senate would
create that would invest the money for a minimum of ten years.

If 999 of you join me that would be $100,000 for our first investment fund.
We could send in a like about each month for one year. If you can not send
in $100, together with three other Nova Romans to send in $25.00.

$12 in dues/taxes is not going to get us anywhere in the long run.


"Our reach should always exceed our grasp"


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus




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> Ave!
>
> I agree completely.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Gallagher
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] Gens Reform
>
>
> Salve Romans
>
> With respect, until just prior to the time we all pack up and

>
> When we design and build a Nova Roma "city" we can then accept

> until.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:07 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] Gens Reform
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> Since about to hours ago, we, the People of Nova Roma, are
> (vritually) gathered in a contio, an assembly to discuss and

> what we are going to do next. Think of it as a parliament or

> debate were *all* the citizens are members of legislative body.
>
> Obviously, there are several subjects that have to be dealt

> let me first introduce one that is of vital importance: the

> our familial system.
>
> In the last meeting of the Senate, the Constitution was

> of those ammendments affects one of the very basis of Nova

> very important step towards a historically correct familial

> has been made, because our Constitution now recognises the

> between gentes and familiae that existed in Ancient Rome.
>
> However, we are still far away from completing the change to

> system. We need to define *how* the transition is going to be,

> *what* the final result will be. There are several possible

> front of us, and we have to choose which one to follow towards

> fully historical familial system.
>
> This reform is a reform that affects *people*. Because of that,
> *people* should be the most important factor in it. In order to
> choose the best possible path (the less traumatic, the most
> efficient, the simplest) we need to know your concerns about

> process.
>
> I would like to start an informal debate before we arrive to

> proposals. Anyone would like to begin?
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
> CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> This year's Aediles are dealing with them because the last year's Aediles
> never resolved the issue.

> I have always referred those citizens who have emailed me back to the
> Aediles,

> but if the matter just is not going to get resolved, for whatever reason,
> then it is time for drastic action to take place...

> Salvete Quirites.
>
> Since about to hours ago, we, the People of Nova Roma, are
> (vritually) gathered in a contio, an assembly to discuss and debate
> what we are going to do next. Think of it as a parliament or

> debate were *all* the citizens are members of legislative body.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: I want a NR "SPQR" flag who can help?


Salvete Quirites, et salve Luci Corneli,

L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> This year's Aediles are dealing with them because the last year's Aediles
> never resolved the issue.

Really now, you have no basis for such a statement Consular. You do not
know (and you won't know) how many claims I resolved last year. If you
mean the greater issue of whether or not a certain vendor should be in
the Macellum, that's not Aedilean business. It is a question for the
Censors, who I did keep informed of the situation.
Sulla: I know about the issues that have been raised up and that I have been kept on the loop on.

> I have always referred those citizens who have emailed me back to the
> Aediles,

Thank you. At least for any you sent to me last year. I hope they
reported their eventual satisfaction back to you.

Sulla: Actually, they haven't hence my claim.

> but if the matter just is not going to get resolved, for whatever reason,
> then it is time for drastic action to take place...

Again, such drastic action would be within the purview of the Censors to
take. However, as I asked earlier, give the current Curule Aediles just
a bit more time to prepare their course of action.

Sulla: Yes, I am aware, I wrote the law regarding the Macellum.

Vale,

Sulla

-- Marinus



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----- Original Message -----
From: P. Fabia Vera
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:28 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Contio] Gens Reform


Sulla;
If you wish to remain as an RPG person then I suggest you do so; for
the rest of us who are meeting in real time, have real projects like
the Magna Mater, it is a matter of concern.
I notice from your last missive to the consul that your rhetorical
questions were of the sort 'when did you stop beating your wife'
aka 'discuss why you are leading us into a quagmire'.

I disagree with Paulinus, but he spoke cogently. I suggest you do as
well; the best lawyers use reason and logic, the worse that old bag
of tricks and the ad hominem, let us retire them to the 'dead horses'
and commence anew,
vale Fabia Vera

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> I agree completely.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Gallagher
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] Gens Reform
>
>
> Salve Romans
>
> With respect, until just prior to the time we all pack up and
physically move to a Nova Roman "city, town or farm" any reform of
the gens system is in my humble opinion an exercise in futility.
>
> When we design and build a Nova Roma "city" we can then accept
the immigration of "real" families into the city.
> until.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:07 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] Gens Reform
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> Since about to hours ago, we, the People of Nova Roma, are
> (vritually) gathered in a contio, an assembly to discuss and
debate
> what we are going to do next. Think of it as a parliament or
congress
> debate were *all* the citizens are members of legislative body.
>
> Obviously, there are several subjects that have to be dealt
with. But
> let me first introduce one that is of vital importance: the
reform of
> our familial system.
>
> In the last meeting of the Senate, the Constitution was
ammended. One
> of those ammendments affects one of the very basis of Nova
Roma. A
> very important step towards a historically correct familial
system
> has been made, because our Constitution now recognises the
difference
> between gentes and familiae that existed in Ancient Rome.
>
> However, we are still far away from completing the change to
such a
> system. We need to define *how* the transition is going to be,
and
> *what* the final result will be. There are several possible
paths in
> front of us, and we have to choose which one to follow towards
a
> fully historical familial system.
>
> This reform is a reform that affects *people*. Because of that,
> *people* should be the most important factor in it. In order to
> choose the best possible path (the less traumatic, the most
> efficient, the simplest) we need to know your concerns about
this
> process.
>
> I would like to start an informal debate before we arrive to
specific
> proposals. Anyone would like to begin?
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
> CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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Service.
>
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> I missed it; can someone inform this stulta, where the contio is, so
> I can join my fellow cives and actually get educated?

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


Ave!

Lets not accuse the Senate of anything, to my knowledge no one has ever ASKED the Senate to consider establishing a long-term investment, execpt as it relates to the land and temple fund.

Personally, I would have no problem at all voting for the establishment of such a fund, like establishing a CD or a money market account, as long as all the paperwork is filled out and filed persusant to any legal requirements and restrictions based on are not for profit corporate status.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


Salve Romans

That's just it!

I do not want the funds SPENT I want them invested for the LONG term.

Are you saying the Senate can not and will not set up and investment fund?


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Julilla Sempronia Magna
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


I regularly donate to Nova Roma, however, I make no designation of how the
funds are to be spent. That, I believe, would tie the Senate's hands, and I
want the funds to be spent where they are most needed.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Factio Praesina
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher [mailto:spqr753@...]
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:42 AM
To: Nova-Roma
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


Salve Romans

I would like to suggest that the first item Nova Roma needs is money. To
that end I will send in $100.00 to a special fund that the Senate would
create that would invest the money for a minimum of ten years.

If 999 of you join me that would be $100,000 for our first investment fund.
We could send in a like about each month for one year. If you can not send
in $100, together with three other Nova Romans to send in $25.00.

$12 in dues/taxes is not going to get us anywhere in the long run.


"Our reach should always exceed our grasp"


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus




Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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> Well, about this gens reform. I, personally, don't think we should focus
> so much on historically accurate. Last time I checked we were not a
> reenactment group. Are we now?

> I mean we do need to be accurate, but not every single
> detail. We are NEW ROMANS, not old.

> Like the issue with the NR ring. Some people
> were saying we should have bronze or iron bands rather than the Eagle with
> SPQR.

> I think we should be open to gens that are not historically accurate.

> Although, I think they should make sense. Nothing like "Gens Bugsus Bunnius."

>
>
> Actually, the Lex Salicia Poenalis defines a declaratio publica (a
> public apology, more or less) as the penalty for a calumnia. If I
> were the praetor, I would dismiss any petitio actionis against you
> for the actions described above given that the damage has been
> repaired satisfactorily. You don't have to pay any money in any case.
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
> CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

>
> Oh, we already have plenty of those. Never fear. What we're

> do though is to make it easier for those familia that want to be
> somewhat more historically accurate to be such.
>

> Salve Romans
>
> With respect, until just prior to the time we all pack up and

>
> When we design and build a Nova Roma "city" we can then accept the
>immigration of "real" families into the city.

> until.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:07 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] Gens Reform
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> Since about to hours ago, we, the People of Nova Roma, are
> (vritually) gathered in a contio, an assembly to discuss and

> what we are going to do next. Think of it as a parliament or

> debate were *all* the citizens are members of legislative body.
>
> Obviously, there are several subjects that have to be dealt with.

> let me first introduce one that is of vital importance: the

> our familial system.
>
> In the last meeting of the Senate, the Constitution was ammended.

> of those ammendments affects one of the very basis of Nova Roma.

> very important step towards a historically correct familial

> has been made, because our Constitution now recognises the

> between gentes and familiae that existed in Ancient Rome.
>
> However, we are still far away from completing the change to such

> system. We need to define *how* the transition is going to be,

> *what* the final result will be. There are several possible paths

> front of us, and we have to choose which one to follow towards a
> fully historical familial system.
>
> This reform is a reform that affects *people*. Because of that,
> *people* should be the most important factor in it. In order to
> choose the best possible path (the less traumatic, the most
> efficient, the simplest) we need to know your concerns about this
> process.
>
> I would like to start an informal debate before we arrive to

> proposals. Anyone would like to begin?
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
> CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Well, about this gens reform. I, personally, don't think we should focus
> so much on historically accurate. Last time I checked we were not a
> reenactment group. Are we now?

>should be open to gens that are not historically accurate.
> Although, I think they should make sense. Nothing like "Gens Bugsus

> figure I would put my two cents in.

> Ave Ahenobarbus,
>
> LOL close, it is from one of the worst laws passed in NR, IMHO.

>Since there is little control and makes a decentralized provinal
>structure much more decentralized to the point where there is
>nothing really to prevent someone from using it to create a new
>micronation and break off from NR.

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Oppidum in Hispania


Salve, Senator Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Ahenobarbus,
>
> LOL close, it is from one of the worst laws passed in NR, IMHO.

SCE: It is quite funny to hear a Senator going against one of the
most important things we are going to achieve in NR; to go from
internet relationship into face-to-face meetings. I feel you have
lost the whole point about this law and the idea behind it.

Sulla: Since when did you need an Oppidium to organize a meeting? Prior to my illness and surgury I was working on a rather large meeting in Las Vegas that would last the weekend. Just on the Back Alley, I have been asked to organize another meeting sometime in Late February. Quite frankly, I do not see the need to decentralize further a governmental structure that is already decentralized. You have not convinced me, Consular Caeso Fabius when he presented the law did not convince.

>Since there is little control and makes a decentralized provinal
>structure much more decentralized to the point where there is
>nothing really to prevent someone from using it to create a new
>micronation and break off from NR.

SCE: That fear is, respectfully, a not very founded one.

Sulla: Why, just because it has not happened yet? I see it as a strong possibility that it could happen. You have not convinced me that it could not happen. Instead of saying that you think the fear is unfounded why dont you spend some time trying to convince me how my fear cannot happen?

Senator; we want to make things, correct? then we can follow two
ways for it. Talking from our comfortable chair typping in our PC or
get up and look around to see what we can do with our very own
hands. This law, Senator, is aimed to that. To DO things, not to
talk about them with no goal. Remember the jews in "Life of Brian"?
Well, this law is like the woman who run to save Brian from the
cross... I mean, from empty words.

Sulla: Did you use the Life of Brian comment because I am Jewish? I really hope not? Because either you did or you obviously have no idea of who I am or my history in Nova Roma. I have been in Nova Roma since her very first day, back in March 1998. I have organized at least 50 meetings that had at least 3+ people and I am currently working on the west coast's equilivent of Roman Days West....I did not need an Oppidium or even the governor's consent to organize any of these meetings. So, in my mind the law is at best superfluous at worst a slippery slope where internal organizations can get a footing established and break eventually break away from NR.

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> I do ask all the citizens to answer this question: Do you want to
> type in your PC or to restore effectevily the heritage of Roma?
>
>
> vale bene in pace deorum,
> L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS

> Sulla: Since when did you need an Oppidium to organize a
>meeting? Prior to my illness and surgury I was working on a rather
>large meeting in Las Vegas that would last the weekend. Just on the
>Back Alley, I have been asked to organize another meeting sometime
>in Late February. Quite frankly, I do not see the need to
>decentralize further a governmental structure that is already
>decentralized. You have not convinced me, Consular Caeso Fabius
>when he presented the law did not convince.

> I have nothing against such a fund, as long as those who donate are not treated differently from those who don't!
>
> I will probably not be able to spend such an amount of money and if there arise any negative results to me because of my
> pecuniary defficit, I will not be able to understand that.

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:19 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] NR Coins


I was under the impression that provinces can mint their own coinage as well. It would be recognized as official currency in the provincia and could be recognized Nova Roma wide if it is backed up by macronation money....do anyone know if this is correct. Is their a process to handle such an item?




Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
Paterfamilias, gens Bianchia
Quaestor, Nova Roma

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On Sat, Feb 07, 2004 at 06:52:07AM -0500, AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
> Salvete;
>
> I think those who do contribute financially to the support of Nova
> Roma should be treated differently.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by that. If you're referring to
simply being listed as members of the Ordo Equester, I'd see no problem
with it.

> The Equestrian Order within Nova
> Roma is the "merchant" class, and is one of honor. But there is no
> law that dictates how much an equestrian has to contribute to Nova
> Roma from his or her dealings as a merchant.

For the very good reason that we *want* to have merchants in Nova Roma.
If people had to pay to get in, few would. What would be their financial
incentive (since it now _would_ be a financial question)? What, are they
gaining access to a huge market with profligate spenders?

> Is it acceptable to have an equestrian listed on the records as such
> who contributes nothing to the general treasury of Nova Roma?

If up until now people have qualified for it by other means, then the
answer is definitely "yes".

> If our
> financial records are open, then so should the contributions to the
> treasury by our equestrians. They are required to contribute a
> portion of their profit back to Nova Roma - this is a price for being
> an equestrian. How many equestrians are doing this, and how much is
> donated (on average) in a typical year?

The Aediles could surely answer that. However, it still comes down to
the merchants' own integrity: Nova Roma does not (as far as I know) have
any sort of a tracking mechanism in place.

> I say that anyone who contributes $100 or more to Nova Roma should be
> allowed into the Equestrian Order. They should then be required to
> contribute $50 a year after their initial year.

[blink] So... those who, out of the generosity of their heart,
contribute $100 should therefore be *forced* to pay from then on? I
cannot think of a suggestion that would be more effective for killing
off even the slightest desire to contribute in anyone.

These would be _charitable_ contributions. Let's not kill off people's
generous impulses by trying to force them into some sort of a rigid mold
and a structure of requirements. Trying to force or legislate charity
will not be useful, to put it mildly.

Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Finis coronat opus.
The ending crowns the work.
-- N/A. Cf. "exitus acta probat".

> Salve Didi Gemine Scepti,
>
>
> Primero, deseo felicitaciones a los ciudadanos de España en su
> oppidum nueva. Deseo contestar a su pregunta. Estoy de acuerdo que

> Nova Roma debe moverse en el mundo real y no estar en "cyberspace"
> por siempre. Puedo ver que nuestros ciudadanos españoles son gente

> la acción y no son personas de palabras solamente. Les deseo todo

> la mejor y esperanza visitarle pronto.
>
> Atentamente,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> > I do ask all the citizens to answer this question: Do you want

> > type in your PC or to restore effectevily the heritage of Roma?
> >
> >
> > vale bene in pace deorum,
> > L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS

> [blink] So... those who, out of the generosity of their heart,
> contribute $100 should therefore be *forced* to pay from then on? I
> cannot think of a suggestion that would be more effective for killing
> off even the slightest desire to contribute in anyone.
>
> These would be _charitable_ contributions. Let's not kill off people's
> generous impulses by trying to force them into some sort of a rigid mold
> and a structure of requirements. Trying to force or
> legislate charity
> will not be useful, to put it mildly.
>
> Valete,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola

>> however a "keep it available" clause could be
>> added to all future negotiations for "Official NR Item" status.
>
> Why would anyone sign such a thing? In effect, they would be
> surrendering their ownership of their ideas or products based on some
> arbitrary standard not under their control. What _is_ typical in
> business is a performance clause in the contract: "your product will
> meet such and such metrics or <define non-performance penalties here>."
> Note that a penalty that even implied loss of ownership would just get
> the horse-laugh.

> I don't know enough Roman law and history yet to contribute
> profitably, but just thinking of families and gens & brainstorming....
>
> 1. will families belong to one gens: will it be the female's or
> male's once the couple say are married. What gens will children
> belong to?
> 2. with unmarried families; will they be treated as 1.?
> 3. Once in a gens are you there forever? Is the alternative
> adoption? What if one spouse gets adopted but the other loves their
> original gens, what happens to the children's gens membership? who does
> it travel with.

>Salve, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus -
>
>On Fri, Feb 06, 2004 at 08:54:21AM -0500, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>> Salve Romans
>>
>> Regardless of what we call them , coins, trade tokens, etc they are
>the Official "whatever" of Nova Roma.
>> If NR needs to buyout the current seller, then that is what we need
>to do so other people can sell them.
>
>What if the owner of the design/idea/etc. does not wish to sell? This
>is
>precisely the point at which questions of socialism, etc. come in.
>
>
>Vale,
>Caius Minucius Scaevola
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>An nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
>Don't you know then, my son, how little wisdom rules the world?
> -- Said by the Swedish chancellor Axel Oxenstierna to encourage his
>son Johan when
>he doubted his ability to represent Sweden at the Westphalian peace
>conference.
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

> We need to define *how* the transition is
> going to be, and
> *what* the final result will be.

> A. Crimes may be committed either by actively
> causing an illegal event or state of affairs or by
> allowing an illegal event or state of affairs to
> occur through inaction.
> B. A punishment due to inaction shall only be
> applied when the reus had a legal duty to act and,
> by omitting to perform that duty, caused a situation
> or created a risk to the detriment of others.

> C. For purposes of this lex, legal duties to act
> may arise from:
> 1. The imposition of a duty by the constitution, a
> lex, a senatus consultum, an edictum or a decretum;
> 2. Forming a contract in which a duty is stated or
> is clearly implicit;
> 3. Standing in a familial with another which
> implies a duty of care;
> 4. Explicitly accepting a duty of care toward
> another;
> 5. Causing or being responsible for a situation or
> sequence of events which is likely to be harmful or
> detrimental to others and being aware of one's
> responsibility.

> I can't claim to know at all what the Consuls' plans
> are in this regard,
> but historically at least I believe that couples
> could marry without
> either changing gens.

> > Ps
> If this is adopted I would like to see the articles
> of incorporation of the Nova Roma Corporation
> changed so that the two founders of Nova Roma are
> not the ones to decide what happens to our assets if
> the corporation comes to an end and the "donation"
> of Nova Roman assets are clearly spelled out.
>
>

> I don't know enough Roman law and history yet to contribute
> profitably, but just thinking of families and gens &
> brainstorming....

> 1. will families belong to one gens: will it be the female's or
> male's once the couple say are married. What gens will children
> belong to?

> 2. with unmarried families; will they be treated as 1.?

> 3. Once in a gens are you there forever? Is the alternative
> adoption?

> What if one spouse gets adopted but the other loves their original
> gens, what happens to the children's gens membership? who does it
> travel with.

> 4. This to me is an interesting issue; when a new person joins NR,
> whoosh you choose a gens, really knowing nothing about the
> pater/materfamilias from Adam, or the reasons to choose being a
> pleb over a patrician. Would it be better to give new cives the
> gens Nemo for 1 year so they can learn and then make an informed
> choice?

----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money


Salvete;

It is my belief that if someone is going to be admitted to the equestrian order then they should have to contribute financially to Nova Roma. If continued contributions are offensive to some then allow for a test to see how many citizens would be willing to donate $100 to be allowed into the equestrian order. I believe this would encourage a small portion of the population to consider donating.

Valete;

Gaius Modius

In a message dated 2/7/2004 8:57:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, ben@... writes:

> [blink] So... those who, out of the generosity of their heart,
> contribute $100 should therefore be *forced* to pay from then on? I
> cannot think of a suggestion that would be more effective for killing
> off even the slightest desire to contribute in anyone.
>
> These would be _charitable_ contributions. Let's not kill off people's
> generous impulses by trying to force them into some sort of a rigid mold
> and a structure of requirements. Trying to force or
> legislate charity
> will not be useful, to put it mildly.
>
> Valete,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> That would be Gens Leporidae with a Insectus as a praenomen, though
> it would probably be more appropriate as a cognomen. Ok, twisted
> Latin puns aside, there is a certain level of need for historical
> accuracy for while we are not strictly an re-enactment group, we
> are a reconstructionist group.
>
> There is a certain limit to how historically accurate we can make
> our gens system as with few exceptions most of us are not related
> by either blood or marriage. I'd like to see a more accurate gens
> system come into being over time. The key words being over time.

> Things have to be thought over very carefully so as to keep
> disruption of established inter-personal relationships to a minimum
> and take into account the needs of actual flesh and blood families
> and provisions for marriage between Nova Romans of different gens,
> any children of Nova Romans, ect.

> Gens reform, while not what I consider a highest priority such as
> Nova Roma's fiscal future, is important. Better to do it in slow
> baby steps and do it right than to slap dash off a series of leges
> and Constitutional amendments that make a tolerable though
> unhistorical situation into a intolerable mess.

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:10 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Oppidum in Hispania


Salvete omnes et tu, Senator Sulla

I think you have missed the point of this law as far as its
consequences. First of all, it encourage one historical situation
the Ancient Romans did too;

Sulla: Really? Because an Oppidium is a barbarian term, not exactly the one the Romans would have used.

the regulation of the different cities
that conformed the Res Publica and their status (Conquered,
colonized, founded.) It tries to rule the local groups in that way.

Sulla: Why is that needed in the first place? Has your governor been so overbearing that he/she bars all local meetings without official sanction? If that is the case why have you not complained to the Senate for us to remove that heavy yoke from your provincia? As I have said before, I have organized over 50 meetings in a period of 4 years (my first year I was practically the only member from California).

It doesn't encourage the secessionism, nor the "independence" from
Senate. Obviously, a local group can meet themselves whenever they
like (We'll do this very evening in Madrid to discuss about the fore
coming European meeting in Segovia) but this is better if is done
within the frame of the Res Publica laws, under the sight of the
Senate and the general knowledge of the people of our Republic.

Sulla: By creating a highly decentralized system and making it even more decentralized it is highly likely that a succession can occur, reading this law when it was proposed its weakenesses were very appearent to me. Your statement and the Consular's statement still has not convinced me that this cannot occur given the history of NR. Your Oppidium might not be the one to succede but that does not mean that an oppidium in the future cannot take that path. With that possibility still in existence I am not convinced that this law is a good law or even a necessary law.

You
say you were managing a meeting without being under this law. OK.
You add that you feared a secession with this law. OK. I ask you
then; it is better to have a meeting under our laws publicly, or a
meeting out of our laws in which the citizenry doesn't know the
results? I mean, is easier a secession of a group who doesn't accept
our laws than from another one who reject them.

Sulla: To have a law that sets up an environment for succession is the worst possible scenario. This law creates that environment. This law should be repealed. As I have said before, there is nothing preventing you from holding meetings. There is nothing preventing your governor from establishing provincial meetings.
Secondly, Senator, I didn't know you were Jew. I ask, does it
matter for the comparison I made? If so and you felt angry, take my
apologize. Change "Jews in `Life of Brian'" for any other
institution or group in which there is too much talk and no action
at all. The point is that this law encourage the local work, which
is certainly and clearly true the basis for all the actions NR can
take on to achieve its purposes. And more important, under the law
we have provided ourselves with.

Sulla: Thank you for your apology, I accept. Again, the problem with your comparison is that I am the one person where who does not just talk the talk. Either you do not know who I am or just choose to ignore it. You can take your pick. My credentials are available over the course of 5 years of being a member of this organization. Again, I see nothing that prevents citizens from getting involved in local works, again, I have to ask, is your governor that overbearing that he/she discourages local work and that you feel compelled that you need a law to circumvent your governor's pressures?

Finally, Senator, I stand in this Forum in front of you and all the
people to say a few words for the Foedum and the Oppidum that will
be. This is not a whim, nor a empty action. Is the will of a group
of concerned citizens who believe in law, in the results of civitas,
in the good of that heritage you, with your words, seems to put
aside.

Sulla: I think this law is a whim and an empty action, you have not given me a substantial reason for this law, nor as Consular Caeso Fabius who promulgated this law last year. Why do you need a superfluous law? What has prevented you from establishing local work communities to this point? How long have you been in Nova Roma? Did you not have meetings before the promulgation of this law? Did you have local communities before the passage of this law? What has changed between those years and last year to motiviate you to support this law? The only thing I can possibily think of that would compel someone to support this law is the heavy-handedness of your governor, and with that in mind, why did you not approach the Senate?

This is, after all, Nova Roma. And being against the Lex
Fabia and the Oppidum constitution is being against the future of
Nova Roma.

Sulla: That is some logic there, but its flawed. Are you saying that I am against Nova Roma? That's rather interesting considering I have been in Nova Roma alot longer than you have. I believe that I am citizen #12 and have been Quaestor, Praetor Urbanus, Consul (for two years), Censor (first to complete the entire term of Censor, something our founders were unable to do themselves), I have been a Senator in good standing, I have helped promote the Religio Romana and helped incorporate the Temple of Religio Romana. So I will ask you to apologize for your accusation or I might consider taking this issue up to the Praetors or Censors for appropriate action.

But I think you, Senator, are for the good of our Res
Publica, so I guess you'll realize that your words should be not of
mocking, but praising this. I wish we had such a number of Foedum
that next year we'd say "Look the growing of Nova Roma!". This is
the first step, and an honour to be the second one after the Urbs,
Roma, in which we look to know what were our past and should be our
future.

Sulla: Please answer my above questions.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I can't claim to know at all what the Consuls' plans are in this
> regard, but historically at least I believe that couples could
> marry without either changing gens. In other words, familiae could
> contain members from more than one gens as the new wife would
> retain her father's gens, and the husband would also keep his own
> gens.

> I believe that children always took their father's gens.

> Therefore, to take an example from the not-too-distant future, if
> we are to operate a historical family system then when I marry
> Cordus I will remain a member of gens Fabia, he will remain a
> member of Apollonia, and our familia will contain the two of us and
> any children we may have (who will be members of gens Apollonia).

> However I have no idea whether this relates to what is actually
> planned!

----- Original Message -----
From: politicog
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] The need for money



--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
> > Ps
> If this is adopted I would like to see the articles
> of incorporation of the Nova Roma Corporation
> changed so that the two founders of Nova Roma are
> not the ones to decide what happens to our assets if
> the corporation comes to an end and the "donation"
> of Nova Roman assets are clearly spelled out.
>
>

I am assuming that the Articles of Incorporation
posted on the website are the current version. Is
this correct?

If so, then the assets that you are talking about
would not revert to such gentlemen unless both the
Senate and the Collegium Pontificum were unavailable.
If either of these bodies is available, then the only
assets that could revert to these individuals under
the Articles would be the name of "Nova Roma" and the
Internet domain. If they are unavailable or unwilling
to take the Internet domain, then it gets sold at
auction.

Are either of these gentlemen still active and
involved in Nova Roma? I am not asking for anyone to
reveal what their Nova Roman names are. I assume that
someone knows who they are and could answer the
question. If either is, I think there would likely be
a fight if we try to amend the Articles without their
consent. If they are not, why should we wait until
our assets grow? Instead, begin the process necessary
to amend them immediately.

Lucius Quintius Constantius


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salvete omnes; et salve, Q. Lani.
>
> Thank you very much for this link. I have found it very, very
> interesting. However, I am afraid that I will now have difficulties
> to avoid "getting technical" whenever I see one of these fallacies.
> (And boy, are they common!) :-)
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
> CN.SALIX.T.F.A.NEP.OVF.ASTVR

> ... an Oppidium is a barbarian term, not exactly the one the Romans
> would have used.

> There is a similar provision for anything produced by an employee during
> their term of employment and which relates to their employment - if you're
> working in plastics, say, and you happen to come across a fantastic new
> polymer in the course of your work, the company by whom you are employed
> has all the rights to patent the formula even if it wasn't what you were
> assigned to come up with.
>
> I don't know the situation as regards US legislation, but a case could be
> made that if the coins were designed by a serving magistrate (or, in
> macronational terms, a member of the board of directors) then Nova Roma
> might find they have automatic rights to the design regardless of whether
> anything to that effect was signed.
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Gawne
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: First Oppidum in Hispania


Salvete Quirites, et salve Luci Corneli,

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> ... an Oppidium is a barbarian term, not exactly the one the Romans
> would have used.

Would you have a source for that claim, Consular? According to my
Encyclopaedia Britannica, it was a Roman term for a town, and it
included such places as Stabiae in Campagnia, an oppidum covered by
the volcanic ash from the eruption of Vesuvius.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Therefore, to take an example from the not-too-distant future, if we are
> to operate a historical family system then when I marry Cordus I will
> remain a member of gens Fabia, he will remain a member of Apollonia, and
> our familia will contain the two of us and any children we may have (who
> will be members of gens Apollonia).
>

> After that year of chaos, though, we must start to
> treat familiae like real families. You cannot leave a
> real family and join another except by adoption: that
> must be the only means allowed in Nova Roma. You
> cannot stop your child being your child and being
> entitled to your family name: patres and
> matresfamilias must not be permitted to do so in Nova
> Roma. We must say to people, 'you've had a year to
> change your name, change your family and change your
> gens as many times as you like. Now the year's up, and
> whatever your name is, whoever the members of your
> familia are, whatever your gens is, that's what it
> will be until you die or get adopted.'
>

> and such problems would spill into NR. This is a real can of worms

> must be dealt with.
>
> Q. Fabius
>
>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Scriboni89@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] [Contio] NR RING


Salve Tiberius Galerius Paulinus,

Like I had stated before, I think $159.00 is over priced. This year
silver is $99.68 per lb. Are we going to buy this ring for $60.00 in the Macellum?
Or are we going to have to pay $159.00? Please let me know. I would be very
happy to own one of these rings, but for a reasonable price.

BENE.VALE.
MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
GNAEVS.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.
OPTIO.SODALITATIS.MILITARIVM.
ET.DOMINVS.SODALITATIS.GEOGRAPHIAE.
NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.AVXILIORVM.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salvete;
>
> It is my belief that if someone is going to be admitted to the

>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius
>
> In a message dated 2/7/2004 8:57:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>
> > [blink] So... those who, out of the generosity of their heart,
> > contribute $100 should therefore be *forced* to pay from then on? I
> > cannot think of a suggestion that would be more effective for killing
> > off even the slightest desire to contribute in anyone.
> >
> > These would be _charitable_ contributions. Let's not kill off people's
> > generous impulses by trying to force them into some sort of a

> > and a structure of requirements. Trying to force or
> > legislate charity
> > will not be useful, to put it mildly.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Caius Minucius Scaevola

> Salve Romans
>
> The time has come to put our money to work. To that end I am

> Anybody who will pledge 100.00 to Nova Roma gets in the group. We

>
> 100 members X $100=$10, 000.00
>
> After we get 10 pledges we will publish the names to the main list

>
> The First ten members of the CENTUM GROUP : Will you name be here?
>
> 1 Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 10
>
> Vale
>
> TGP
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I wonder if we aren't trying to tackle too much at once?

----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 9:41 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] New Groups--Unofficial vs. Official


F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Please remember what happened to the original Numantia. In regard to the new
groups, it will require a good deal of work to get the new groups going and
organized. For potential new groups, you might want to hold a few events
(convivium, symposium) or form a collegia (i.e., historically, these were plebeian
banquet & burial societies) to see how well you can manage to meet regularly,
get along, and see if a group can be established before committing to the
paperwork only to discover you cannot keep it up. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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