From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Date: Thursday April 8, 2004 08:42
Subject: CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER EIGHTEEN


CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER NINETEEN


APPOINTMENT OF SENIOR LEGATE,LEGATE AND LICTOR FOR CANADA
OCCIDENTALIS



8 March 2004

Salvete my fellow Nova Romans,

With great pleasure,

I, Quintus, Lanius Paulinus, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue
the following Edicta
to announce the appointment of:

1)Quaestor Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa as Senior Legate
for Canada Occidentalis.

2)Quintus Sertorius as Legate for our Winnipeg and Manitoba region
of Canada Occidentalis

3) Gnaeus Iulius Caesar as Lictor and Scriba for our Citizen and
Citizenship Department

I look forward to working with these gentlemen to promote and bill
our province in Res Republica!

Valete bene

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Propraetor

Canada Occidentalis

Salve Honorable G. Equitius Cato!

>Salvete S. Cassius et Gn. Marinus, et salvete omnes:
>
>I hope that (as a new citizen) I'm not sticking my hand in where it
>doesn't belong, but...

Nova Roma has a different solution to the problems that You have only
seen a glimpse of. I am a new Censor and I need some time to find out
what the problems are in my new office. I haven't got much guidiance
into my new office and I have had to find out most problems,
solutions and tools by myself. Added to that it seems as if we have a
huge influx of applicant at the moment, while the machinery (my
Cohors) hasn't been built to be ready to fully take care of these
problems yet.

>I noticed that there are only 7 quaestors listed.

The Constitutions say that Nova Roma shall have eight quaestores and
the Quaestor that needs to be elected after te former one must be a
Consular Quaestor.

>In Rome, there
>were 20 per annum

Yes but it was Sulla who during his dictatorship decided to have 20
quaestores elected. We usually don't see Sulla' regime as a model for
Nova Roma.

>, and 10 of these were specifically assigned tasks
>including (drumroll, please) keeping the rolls of citizens.

The Quaestores didn't have anything to do with the work of the
Censors in Roma Antiqua.

>Perhaps
>some of the backlog encountered by the censors might be eased by the
>appointment of the remaining quaestorships?

In Nova Roma the Censors may appoint Scribae according to the Constitution.

I have a Cohors Censoris CFQ (My Censorial Staff) that at the moment
consists of three Scribae, within a couple of weeks I will appoint
more Scribae to assist me in my tasks. It seems as if I will at the
moment need more Scribae then ever to handle this situation. This
seem to be beacuse of a great influx of new applicants, combined with
my ambition to don't accept all the unRoman and some not very serious
applications for names.

I expect the situation to slowly change to the better during this
spring because of the fact that more Censorial Scribae will be
appointed and the change of the rules that I plan to publish. Before
the rules/edictum will be published the Consuls, Praetoirs, Tribunes
and some expert will be consulted.

My Colleague and I have didvided the tasks of the Censors and I have
the responsibility for approving new citizens. When I was campaigning
to become Censor I promsed to try to change the choice of names
within Nova Roma towards a more correct Roman tradition. At the
moment I and my Scriba are doing this by trying to convince new
applicants to choose more Roman sounding names. This is not a very
easy job as Nova Roma has a very unhistoric tradition of naming and
as we have allowed very strange names before. I will try to change
that, but as long as I can stand of alegal ground of an edictum (and
possible later a law) the process by nature will be slow. At the
monent two of my Scribae are researching the "rules" of Roman names.
This research will be presented as new pages for Roman names at the
main site and the new edictum to guide applicants and old citizens.

>Then the populace of NR
>could be divided amongst them, under the watchful eyes of the
>censors, to help in that job. In Rome the censors really only kept
>tabs on those in the Senatorial class, so this might be a small but
>historically accurate adjustment? Again, I could be treading on toes
>here, but it is purely out of ignorance. I will huddle in the corner
>over there behind the statue of Iupiter Optimus Maximus with my toga
>over my head until the coast is clear...

I hope that this has made thing clearer for You?

>vale,
>
>Cato

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

SALVETE QVIRITES!

Here follows the fifth question for the Historical Contest!

Quiz n.5 - When can be dated the first certain commercial treaty between
Roma and Carthago? To which limits of navigation were tied Rome and
Carthago, after this treaty?

we are waiting for you answers, and remember that you have just to write
at mm_quiz@... (mm_quiz AT yahoo DOT com). The term for sending
the answers will be tomorrow 9th at 19 Roman Time.

It's not important if you haven't done yesterday: YOU can begin now!


valete

M IVLIVS PERVSIANVS
------------------------------------------------------------------
ENJOY THE LUDI MEGALESIA 2004 @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/ludi.html
PLEASE GIVE TO THE MAGNA MATER PROJECT @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/magnamater6.html
------------------------------------------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AMERICA AUSTRORIENTALIS EDICTUM 2757-1

Appointment of Praefectus Regio

I, Gaius Popillius Laenas, Propraetor of America Austrorientalis,
herby appoint

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus

Praefectus Regio of the Magna Flumen Regio (Mississippi, Louisiana,
Arkansas, and Tennessee) of America Austrorientalis.

Given under my hand, this day April 8 2757 auc, in the Consulship of
Gn. Salix Astur and Gn. Equitius Marinus

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

M IVL PERVSIANVS AVLO AMBROSIO CELETRO QVIRITIBVSQVE SPD

(Attention: according to the Calendar of the Ludi Megalensia 2004, this
mail had to be sent yesterday but, for some technical problems that we
are experincing, it was not possible)
thanks

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ave Celetre et salvete Quirites!

It is my great pleasure to announce that you are the winner of the Ludi
Megalesia Cultural Contest. Our best congratulations!

Here is the winning text:

Ceres' Lament

Red, yellow. Orange, black.
The colors of the hearth
chill my heart, alone in the
days of your absence.

Winter drapes like a shroud.
Ice diamonds the earth.
Trees, with a dearth of spirit,
see only sadness these days.

I live the cycles of loss with the trees;
resigned to the endless round
of day and night, birth and rebirth.

Yet day's death brings release
from the worn ways of memory.
Sleep, Proserpine, brings peace...
for I dream of Spring.

As soon as possible this text will be published on
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/m_award_results.html , and
it's going to remain there for the deserved display.

valete

M IVL PERVSIANVS, Aedilis Curulis
----------------------------------------------------------
ENJOY THE LUDI MEGALESIA 2004 @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/ludi.html

PLEASE GIVE TO THE MAGNA MATER PROJECT @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/magnamater6.html
----------------------------------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites, especially new cives;
welcome to Nova Roma, what a great place. Do look into the
wonderful Academia Thules, where there are free online courses in the
Religio, Intro to Nova Roma, Latin, Roman History I can go on & on....
also there are sodalitates for cooking, reenactment, a Religio
group, and of course join a factio and enter your chariot for the
Cerialia!
optime valete, Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Salvete Gaia et S. Cassius,
>
> Welcome to NR and we hope you have a great experience here. Many of
> us will be pleased to guide you or answer your questions. All the
> best!
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

SALVETE QVIRITES!
This mail had to be sent yesterday but, for some technical problems that
we are experincing, it was not possible.
So, the answers for this questions can be sent to mm_quiz@...
(mm_quiz AT yahoo DOT com) within the next 24 hours. In few minutes also
the Question V will be, hopefully, sent.
thanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here the answer to the question we've asked you yesterday!

Quiz n.3 - Where was taken from the black stone representing Magna
Mater? And where was it first placed when it reached Rome?

Answer:
The stone representing MM was taken at Pessinun, Phrygia, in Asia Minor.

It was placed, as it reached Rome, in the Temple of Victory, on the
Palatine Hill.


TEMPORARY CLASSIFICATION HISTORICAL CONTEST MAGNA MATER
According to the answers received, we now have:

5 pts. Caius Ianus Flaminius;
4 pts. Gnaeus Equitius Marinus; Titus Octavius Pius; Quintus Lanius
Paulinus;
3 pts. Gaius Lanius Falco;
2 pts. Lucius Cornelius Cicero; Lucius Rutilius Minervalis

Here follows the fourth question for the Historical Contest!

Quiz n.4 - Who was the consul defeated and killed at lake Trasimenus,
during the II Punic War? Who elected Q Fabius Maximus Dictator in 217
b.C., after this battle?

we are waiting for you answers, and remember that you have just to write

at mm_quiz@... (mm_quiz AT yahoo DOT com). The term for sending
the answers will be tomorrow 8th at 19 Roman Time.

It's not important if you haven't done yesterday: YOU can begin now!



valete

M IVLIVS PERVSIANVS
------------------------------------------------------------------
ENJOY THE LUDI MEGALESIA 2004 @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/ludi.html
PLEASE GIVE TO THE MAGNA MATER PROJECT @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/magnamater6.html
------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvete,

Due to the Easter Holidays, I´ll be absent from the urbs from now until pridie III ides april.

I´m going to visit the beauties of the Historical City of Ouro Preto (Black Gold) and peregrinating throught some baroque XVI-XVIII century buildings, patrimony of mankind of UNESCO.

Tribunes, you have my mobile phone if you need something.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis, Propraetor



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger - Fale com seus amigos online. Instale agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

Perfect! I didn't notice the paypal link before.
That's about as easy as it gets. Thank you for the
info!

Valete,

S. Cassius Vespillo


--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:

> [posted to main list with cc to original sender]
>
>
> Salve S. Cassi, et salvete Quirites,
>
> s_cassius wrote:
>
> > how does a good citizen go about paying his or her
> taxes?
>
> The simplest way is:
>
> 1. Go to http://novaroma.org/main.html
>
> 2. Scroll down about 3/4 of the way down the page,
> to where you'll see
> three "banners" grouped together. The one on the
> left is purple, and
> alternates between saying "Dono Dare" and "Donate to
> Nova Roma." Click
> on that banner.
>
> 3. You'll be taken to a PayPal interface which is
> set up to accept
> PayPal payments for Nova Roma. If you've used
> PayPal before all you'll
> have to do is type in your PayPal user information,
> say that you're
> sending $12 to Nova Roma, and in the comment box,
> specify your Nova
> Roman name and the fact that this $12 is for annual
> tax payment.
>
> For the complete text of this year's tax edict, see
>
>

http://novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/consul-2004-02-01.html

>
> That includes instructions about how to pay by mail,
> if you don't want
> to use PayPal.
>
> While nobody is required to pay the tax, I strongly
> encourage all
> citizens to pay. If nothing else, it has a profound
> effect on how much
> your vote counts for. All capiti censi (literally
> "head count," meaning
> people who don't pay tax) are grouped into the four
> huge urban tribes
> and into the last century. Assidui (tax paying
> citizens) are placed
> into the much smaller tribes and centuries of the
> assidui.
>
> Valete,
>
> --
> Gn. Equitius Marinus
> Consul
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/

Salvete omnes,

Has anyone got a copy of some volumes of the CAH? I am looking to buy
volumes that deal with the period I am interested in but cannot find
any site that lists all the books available in order to allow me to
my choice.

I would welcome any guidance on the subject.

Optime Valete

Moravius Laureatus

Salve A. M. Aurelia

Let me begin by stating that I do not beleive that 12 US dollars is much at all. I do think that perhaps a higher tax rate for those in office would be a good idea. This includes the various scriba and other assistants. With great power comes great responsibility is a quote that comes to mind. Those of us that aspire to a higher standing within the government should be prepared to go above and beyond for the welfare of Nova Roma.
A quick plan:
12.00 for regular citizens
20.00 for scriba and other assistants
30.00 for provincial Magistrates and quaestors
35.00 for senators and tribunes of the plebs
40.00 for Higher Magistrates (consul, censor)

just a few ideas, not by any means complete, but something to think about.


With Respect,

Lucius Cassius Pontonius (Michael Ponte)

----- Original Message -----
From: Agrippina Modia Aurelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 12:02 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Taxes & What Not - the Value of NR


Salve,

> Alas, why should I pay for NR if I don´t know it well when
applying?
> I would propose even different, only real old citizens like us
should
> pay.

Good question - and one that we are in the process of addressing in
Lacus Magni (the great lakes region of the US). When I joined I
didn't even realize there were taxes as I didn't see anything about
it on the website (remember its a big site with lots of info to
troll through as newbie). I didn't have a problem with them but I
was curious as to what happened to the money. Once I got a handle
on it, I wrote a small pamphlet explaining: how much the taxes were,
how they could be paid, included 2002's financial statement (2003's
wasn't up yet), compared our "tax rate" with the membership dues of
several other organizations, and explained that our province gets
1/2 of our tax money back for events & what not. This entire
pamphlet is going to be incorporated into a printed "Welcome Packet"
we plan on snail mailing to all our new citizens. This packet
includes information on NR's political offices (at this point I've
cut & paste the info off the website), the Religio, the various
sodalitas (including ML links), the Magna Mater project, among other
things. The thought is that by receiving something tangible by mail
it helps people to realize we are more than a virtual organization.
Additionally it gives them a conscise guide to NR that is easily
referenced (as the website is a bit daunting and a tad
unorganized). Hopefully this will make people more comfortable with
shelling out that $12.

Perhaps you could use something like this in your provincia?
Citizens then can see concretely that they are NOT paying solely for
free Yahoo groups in English - there are other things beyond that
(and even the Magna Mater project). Besides, $12 US is not a lot
when compared to other organizations (US-based, sorry). The going
rate from the few I surveyed was between $20-$30+, so $12 is pretty
small by comparison. Aside from which, as someone once pointed out
to me, having people pay up front could very well cut down on people
joining and disappearing shortly after. Only those really serious
would likely be willing to pay. Besides, most organizations in the
US that I am familiar with require an up-front payment to join -
even Greenpeace and the Sierra Club require that (no flame wars on
environment organizations please, they just popped into my head
first).

On our provincial mailing list I (as well as the other legates) have
been compiling info on events (lectures, exhibits, plays, etc) which
are added to the calendar section each Yahoo group comes with,
created a database of museums with permanent Roman exhibits, and
will be creating a database of Roman-ish areas (i.e. the Pomona
Winery in Pomona, IL) within Lacus Magni. The next step will be to
organize provincial or regional 'field trips' to these
areas/events. Here again, we're creating value for that $12 their
paying. While we may not foot the bill for these trips, at least we
are getting together in face-to-face meetings, and fulfilling what
seems to be one of the top reasons people join - to learn more about
ancient Rome.

BTW - if there are citizens within Lacus Magni who are not
subscribed to the provincial list I implore you to subscribe. Its a
low volume list (don't worry I do not flood the list with event
reminders). Place into digest or even 'special notice' mode and use
it as a resource! If you need the link, email me!

Vale,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia
Legate, Regionis Orientalis (OH,WV,KY)
The Great Provincia Lacus Magni


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete quirites:

IMHO, $12 is a pretty good deal for all this fun :) I smoke (I
know, I know) and I pay $8 a pack in NYC, so I guess it's all
relative. Besides, unlike smoking, being a citizen in NR won't kill
me...unless I really really get the Praetorians angry at me.

vale bene, omnes!

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Salve Tribune Tiberi,
>
> When I looked at the NR website and all it had to offer I wondered
> why there was not some sort of tax system or membership fee.

Because

> there is so much to pick up and absorb for a new citizen I did not
> realize there was a tax until after several weeks in NR.
>
> Your question is not easy to answer since each of us has an
> individual attitude regarding taxes or fees. Some people offer to

or

> send their denari without even blinking an eye yet others are very
> tight fisted hum and haw and resent sending even 50 cents. As an
> example in our Mexican association we asked for a 25.00 (16.00) US
> fee. Most of our people when contacted gave a beig song and dance
> that it was hard, not practical too expensive etc. I can see a poor
> campisino making 500 US a year saying this but not others who wear
> more gold and glitter than King Tut himself, have beautiful homes
> and late model cars. Such is life my friend!
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"

<spqr753@m...>

> wrote:
> > Salve and welcome to our new citizens.
> >
> > I hope your next 50 years or so with us will be filled with
> enjoyment, good friendships and an increased understanding of Roma
> and Nova Roma.
> >
> > I have a question.
> >
> > A discussion is currently ongoing about taxes and I was wondering
> how it would have effected your application for citizenship if you
> had been told up front that you were required to pay taxes of $12

US

> dollars or less for per year.
> >
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > Tribunus Plebs
> > Assidui
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Tiberius,

<Only two of our 8 Quaestors (vacancy do to resignation) have any responsibility for any financial
<activities of of the republic and the role of the others are not al all well defined.

Nope, this year 4 Quaestores have financial responsiblily: the 2 Curule aediles as well as two
Consular Adeiles.

Vale,
Diana

avete omnes,

as seen, Questions V arrived on the ml while IV (sent yesterday and sent
again half a hour ago) never arrived :-(

Actually I don't even know if this mail that I'm writing will arrive on
the main ml either in few seconds or tomorrow (or never)

I apologize if question IV will arrive more than once as I'm trying to
send it with as many ways as I know. The problem seems to be totally out
of our control

thanks
M IVL PERVSIANVS, Aedilis Curulis

Salve, illustrissimus Censore!

Thanks for the info; as I said, I'm new (and still hiding under my
toga) but also have a tendency to just yap away :) If I can do
anything to help, once my citizenship has become established, please
let me know.

vale bene,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> Salve Honorable G. Equitius Cato!
>
> >Salvete S. Cassius et Gn. Marinus, et salvete omnes:
> >
> >I hope that (as a new citizen) I'm not sticking my hand in where it
> >doesn't belong, but...
>
> Nova Roma has a different solution to the problems that You have

only

> seen a glimpse of. I am a new Censor and I need some time to find

out

> what the problems are in my new office. I haven't got much

guidiance

> into my new office and I have had to find out most problems,
> solutions and tools by myself. Added to that it seems as if we have

a

> huge influx of applicant at the moment, while the machinery (my
> Cohors) hasn't been built to be ready to fully take care of these
> problems yet.
>
> >I noticed that there are only 7 quaestors listed.
>
> The Constitutions say that Nova Roma shall have eight quaestores

and

> the Quaestor that needs to be elected after te former one must be a
> Consular Quaestor.
>
> >In Rome, there
> >were 20 per annum
>
> Yes but it was Sulla who during his dictatorship decided to have 20
> quaestores elected. We usually don't see Sulla' regime as a model

for

> Nova Roma.
>
> >, and 10 of these were specifically assigned tasks
> >including (drumroll, please) keeping the rolls of citizens.
>
> The Quaestores didn't have anything to do with the work of the
> Censors in Roma Antiqua.
>
> >Perhaps
> >some of the backlog encountered by the censors might be eased by

the

> >appointment of the remaining quaestorships?
>
> In Nova Roma the Censors may appoint Scribae according to the

Constitution.

>
> I have a Cohors Censoris CFQ (My Censorial Staff) that at the

moment

> consists of three Scribae, within a couple of weeks I will appoint
> more Scribae to assist me in my tasks. It seems as if I will at the
> moment need more Scribae then ever to handle this situation. This
> seem to be beacuse of a great influx of new applicants, combined

with

> my ambition to don't accept all the unRoman and some not very

serious

> applications for names.
>
> I expect the situation to slowly change to the better during this
> spring because of the fact that more Censorial Scribae will be
> appointed and the change of the rules that I plan to publish.

Before

> the rules/edictum will be published the Consuls, Praetoirs,

Tribunes

> and some expert will be consulted.
>
> My Colleague and I have didvided the tasks of the Censors and I

have

> the responsibility for approving new citizens. When I was

campaigning

> to become Censor I promsed to try to change the choice of names
> within Nova Roma towards a more correct Roman tradition. At the
> moment I and my Scriba are doing this by trying to convince new
> applicants to choose more Roman sounding names. This is not a very
> easy job as Nova Roma has a very unhistoric tradition of naming and
> as we have allowed very strange names before. I will try to change
> that, but as long as I can stand of alegal ground of an edictum

(and

> possible later a law) the process by nature will be slow. At the
> monent two of my Scribae are researching the "rules" of Roman

names.

> This research will be presented as new pages for Roman names at the
> main site and the new edictum to guide applicants and old citizens.
>
> >Then the populace of NR
> >could be divided amongst them, under the watchful eyes of the
> >censors, to help in that job. In Rome the censors really only kept
> >tabs on those in the Senatorial class, so this might be a small but
> >historically accurate adjustment? Again, I could be treading on

toes

> >here, but it is purely out of ignorance. I will huddle in the

corner

> >over there behind the statue of Iupiter Optimus Maximus with my

toga

> >over my head until the coast is clear...
>
> I hope that this has made thing clearer for You?
>
> >vale,
> >
> >Cato
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Censor, Consularis et Senator
> Proconsul Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

In a message dated 4/8/04 4:35:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
laureatusarmoricus@... writes:

> Has anyone got a copy of some volumes of the CAH? I am looking to buy
> volumes that deal with the period I am interested in but cannot find
> any site that lists all the books available in order to allow me to
> my choice.
>
> I would welcome any guidance on the subject.
>
> Optime Valete
>
> Moravius Laureatus
>

What Volume do you want? I'm sure I can run it down for you.
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes Christianae in populi Roma Nova:

"Ecce lignum crucis, in quo salus mundi pependit...venite adoremus"
In nomine Domini nostri Jesu Christe, offertoriae felicitationem in
tempore memorialis passio, sepultio, et resurrexio salvatore mundum.
Gloria tibi, Pater Omnipotens! Quia donat filium unigenitum per
salvationem omnium! Gratias agimus tibi, Domine, misericordiam
magnam tuam!
Hic est panis de caelo descendens ut si quis ex ipso manducaverit non
moriatur; si quis manducaverit ex hoc pane vivet in aeternum et panis
quem ego dabo caro mea est pro mundi vita...

Salvete quirites,

As one of the recent new citizens I have been following this
discussion with some interest. Having just been granted citizenship
and without the benefit of any knowledge as to which gens responds
quickly, in an "average" amount of time, slowly or never at all, I
am going to tread carefully down this path.

First my own experience was thoroughly positive. The efficient and
speedy input from one of the Censors, my Propraetor and my
Materfamilias was only outdone by my own impatience. The entire
application was processed within a matter of days.

Secondly, Nova Roma is the vehicle that I have always sought to
explore my own belief and value system. I did not commit to
citizenship on a whim and considered the implications carefully,
particularly in respect of the time element that would likely be
expended within this community. I am not someone in need of
recognition or validation, nor do I come as a citizen to seek a
relief from a mundane and drab macro existence. Neither might I add
do I gain some form of stimulation from wrapping a bed sheet around
myself and strutting around my house late at night enraptured by the
thought of glorious offices awaiting me within Nova Roma.
Citizenship for me is the outward commitment to a revival of that
spirit of Romanitas which I wish upon our society.

I would urge a considerable degree of caution when trying to solve
the issue of an absent pater/materfamilias. Recourse to a law
regulating admission to a gens would be an extremely dangerous route
to travel, very un-Roman and as I will propose, totally unnecessary.

For a prospective citizen that has a reasonable knowledge of Roman
history, they may already have a gens in mind, it being one that
produced particular heroes of theirs. If they apply and nothing
happens, and all the suggested routes have been exhausted, then they
should consider this; a gens that tolerates this is not even a
shadow of a reflection of an old Roman gens, at least a Republican
era gens. Therefore as hard as it maybe to let go of, (had I been
in this position) I would have looked elsewhere as clearly that gens
contains none of the noble spirit that existed in the original.

The problem should not be resolved by the Censors, nor by
legislation. These are quick fixes which will not address the core
problem – the need for the gens to regulate itself. If the gens has
active NR citizens and a p/m familias that barely functions then it
is beholden on them to deal with it behind closed doors, and deal
with it quickly for the sake of the reputation of their gens and
themselves as responsible family men and women. But how I hear you
ask?

The answer, to my mind, is simple and to be found in the Twelve
Tables. A pater/mater familias that absents themselves, without good
and reasonable cause, from their duties clearly has no sense of the
obligations that have been placed upon them. They have lost any
sense of Romanitas they had. To me they are therefore clearly
insane. It is the insanity of allowing duty to be disregarded, of
disgracing their gens by absenting themselves from the proper
business of the family.

"Table V: Guardianship

7a. If a man is raving mad, rightful authority over his person and
chattels shall belong to his agnates or to his clansmen."

It is the duty of the other members of his gens to declare him or
here raving mad as a consequence of such an abrogation of duty and
assume control of his duties. Following a tradition in Roman
government the family should appoint (by mutual agreement hopefully –
if not a vote) one of their number as an interrex pater/mater
familias. Then in order to ensure due process and safeguard the
rights of the now removed pater/mater familias, the matter should be
put before one of the Praetors for a review. The Praetor if
satisfied that the person is clearly "raving mad" (i.e. there is no
good reason for his/her absenting themselves) should place the issue
before one of the Comitia for a specific law to be passed declaring
the former pater/mater familias to be removed from his position of
authority and the interrex confirmed in that role.

It is my belief that removal of the rights of a pater/mater familias
should not be a matter of course after a number of days have elapsed
and no law should be enacted ever to undermine the duty of the gens
as a whole o regulate its own affairs in this way. The Roman way is
for the gens to take responsibility, clean its own stable and for
the Praetor to review the matter, protect a sitting pater/mater
familias from any "coup" attempts by disgruntled relatives, and hear
the evidence to support or reject the guardianship action
undertaken. Then the matter should be put before the people. This is
a true example of SPQR in action - an "officer" of the Senate acting
in his traditional duty of hearing a legal issue and the People
confirming the action. Additionally a responsible gens underpinning
this.

Also the final reason for not legislating an automatic process to
overcome this "problem" is that it gets hidden and it is never
solved by the people who should solve it - the family. If a gens
fails to act the matter should be put before the Praetor to have
every single one of them declared "raving mad" and the care custody
and control of the gens pass into the hands of a person designated
by the Praetor and confirmed by the People. The gravity of such a
process is truly Roman. Legislating a quick fix is the bane of the
macro world we unfortunately live in, where lawyers get rich, their
clients poor and society even weaker and poorer as a result.

What is needed here is a Roman solution, and one that protects the
mos maiorum.

Vale.

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

Salve T. G. Paulinus

Ensuring that new citizens know what they are getting into is definitely something that must be done. Additions to the applying for citizenship page would seem to be the logical place to add this information, as well as that welcoming package that I read someone mentioning earlier.

The one problem with this is of course that some people would not sign up if they knew that there is a monetary responsibility to citizenship. While this may present a problem in the eyes of some, I think it is the proper thing to do. Posting at least the 12.00 on the applying for citizenship page is the honest thing to do. While researching something before joining is advised to everyone in anything they are considering, Nova Roma should endeavor to make this particular item of information very clear to all prospective new Cives.

With Respect,

Lucius Cassius Pontonius (Michael Ponte)

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:44 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] A question for New Citizens ?


Salve and welcome to our new citizens.

I hope your next 50 years or so with us will be filled with enjoyment, good friendships and an increased understanding of Roma and Nova Roma.

I have a question.

A discussion is currently ongoing about taxes and I was wondering how it would have effected your application for citizenship if you had been told up front that you were required to pay taxes of $12 US dollars or less for per year.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs
Assidui

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,
One thing that could possibly done is when a new citizen joins
appoint someone to be his/
her Guide. That should be his Pater/Materfamilias or someone appointed
by the Censors. That
way the new Citizen would always have one person they could depend on
to help them.

Vale,

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
--
Propraetor
Wichita, KS
America Medioccidentalis Superior

Salve A. M. Aurelia

I cannot attend the gathering, being a Nova Britannian, but I do wish you all the best of luck and I know that I am there in spirit if not in person.

With Respect,

Lucius Cassius Pontonius (Michael Ponte)

----- Original Message -----
From: Agrippina Modia Aurelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 10:06 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Invitation to Celebrate the Birth of Nova Roma


Salvete!

Lacus Magni, Regionis Orientalis (OH,WV,KY), is inviting everyone to
join us for an afternoon of good food and good company in
celebration of the birth of Nova Roma. On Saturday, April 24 at
2pm, we will be gathering at Buca di Beppo's in Columbus, OH for a
family-style Italian meal. Several citizens and magistrates will be
in attendance including our propraetor (& quaestor) Marcus Bianchus
Anthonius; his wife and scriba Octavia Bianchia Crispiana; our
procurator, tribune plebius, and Flamen Pomonalis Gaius Modius
Athanasios; and myself among others. Please join us for the
afternoon and help us move Nova Roma from the virtual world into the
real world.

We ask that you RSVP by April 17. You can do so by replying to this
message, or sending an email to my personal email address
(wr@... or the yahoo account this is being sent
from). If you need directions or more information please contact
me. I live in Cincinnati, OH so if there are any citizens in the
area who need a ride please contact me.

LOCATION:
Buca di Beppo
343 North Front Street
Columbus, OH 43215
614-621-3287

DATE/TIME: Saturday, April 24 at 2pm.

Valete,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia
Legate, Regionis Orientalis (OH,WV,KY)
The Great Provincia Lacus Magni


BTW, printed invitations were sent via US mail. If you did not
receive one (and live in OH,WV, or KY), please let me know so I can
add your contact information to our database.



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Romans

Caius Curius Saturninus the Retiarius or Webmaster for the SODALITAS MUSARUM has finished building a new and improved website for the Musarum which can been seen here: http://www.insulaumbra.com/sodalitasmusarum

We invite you to come and see the results of his hard work and to see what the SODALITAS MUSARUM is up to.

For those who do not know the "Sodalitas Musarum, under the patronage of Apollo and the Nine Muses, shall endeavor to develop and serve the cultural and artistic life of Nova Roma."

You can join any or all of the Collegia of which we have ten as follows, each is named after and be under the patronage of the appropriate Muse or Apollo.

Calliope (Epic Poetry)
Clio (History and Social Science)
Euterpe (Music)
Melpomene (Tragedy)
Terpsichore (Dance)
Erato (Lyric Poetry)
Polyhymnia (Sacred Song and Verse)
Urania (Astronomy and Natural Science)
Thalia (Comedy)
Apollo (Graphic and Plastic Arts, and Architecture)


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Coryphaeus
Sodalitas Musarum







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

Many thanks to whoever started the (now familiar and recurrent) tax
thread : It reminded me that I hadn't paid mine ! It is done now.

While we are on the subject, may suggest an eventual plan of action ?
Please note that all figures below are in US dollars and would be
converted according to our current (IMHO excellent) system that
accounts for national income differences.

1. Taxes will be mandatory and the condition necessary to retain
citizenship.

2. All new citizens will be exempt from tax for a full year in order
to get a feel of how NR works and understand why we need funds.

3. Thereafter all citizens will be taxed according to their status in
NR. For instance following this table :

Senators $100
Equites £75
Patricians $50
Plebeians $25

these sums are not cumulative : An individual would be paying the sum
corresponding to his/her highest status (is a patrician senator would
be paying $100 and NOT patrician + senator = $150).

Pater/materfamilias would also be paying an extra $25

How about that ? Will that bring us closer to Roma Antiqua ? Will
this system of mandatory taxes show the world how serious and
committed we are ? Will that prevent the flood of bogus applications
and of ghosts cives ?

I am looking forward to your comments

Optime Valete

C Moravius Laureatus Armoricus

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem V Idus Aprilis and the Feria Megalesiae; the day is
nefastus. The Feria Megalesiae continued.

Tomorrow is ante diem IV Idus Aprilis and the Feria Megalesiae; the
day is nefastus. The Feria Megalesiae continued.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

Salvete omnes,

I posted an hour ago and no message yet.

QLP

Salvete amici...


I have the honor of announcing you the result of the racesof semifinals of the Circus Games.



The Goddess Cibele has been generous and has only been necessary to regret an accident



The participation for factiones has been the following one:



3 VENETI

2 RUSSATI

2 PRAESINI

1 ALBATI



This is the list of the eight participants classified:



Chariot Fvror Tevtonicvs

Driver Scissor Obscurvs Northmannvs

Factio RUSSATA

Entrant Alexander Solaris Draco

Provincia Italia



Chariot Vita Brevis

Driver Petronius Gnipho

Factio ALBATA

Entrant Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Provincia Medioatlantica




Chariot Inexpugnabilis III

Driver Euthymus

Factio PRAESINA

Entrant Caius Curius Saturninus

Provincia Thule




Chariot Abydos

Driver Dionysus Aegypto

Factio VENETA

Entrant Aulus Ambrosius Celetrus

Provincia Mediatlantica



Chariot Veritas

Driver Maximus Vincentius

Factio VENETA

Entrant Gaius Lanius Falco

Provincia Nova Britannia




Chariot Stella Iudaeae

Driver Malchus

Factio PRAESINA

Entrant Septima Fabia Vera Fausta

Provincia Hibernia




Chariot Libertas

Driver Peucetius

Factio RUSSATA

Entrant Franciscus Apulus Caesar

Provincia Italia



Chariot Invictus

Driver Tanaris

Factio VENETA

Entrant Gaius Ambrosius Artorius Iulianus

Provincia America Austrooccidentalis





The Goddess Fortune, always so capricious, she has already chosen to their favorite ones.



The races have lapsed this way:





--- Ut quisquem vicerit occidat! ---



Today takes place in the Circus Maximus the second day of the circus games. The Pompa procession enters in the sand and to its front eight exceptional white horses advance throwing of a beautiful chariot on which is a statue of gold and ivory of the Magna Mater.



The public throws flowers and commendation screams to the Goddess. Behind her all the chariots that will participate in the semifinals enter. They receive screams of happiness of their admiring ones but also their enemies' insults. All give a turn of honor to the race track and later the Goddess's statue is placed in the altar on the spina front of the main goal. The rest of the retinue is dissolved and they are carried out the preparations for the first race.



Everything is willing!



[...]



Why do I equip bet you?

If you participate you will be able to know like their team behaved, and if you don't participate you will never know if you had arrived to the final race...



Remember that you can read the stories in http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/m_circ_results.html#semifinals



Vale.



Quintus Salix Cantaber Uranicus < qsalixcant@... >
Scriba Propraetoris Arenae PROVINCIA HISPANIE
Scriba Aedilis Ludorum - COHORTIS AEDILIS CURULIS



----------------------------------------------------------
ENJOY THE LUDI MEGALESIA 2004 @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/ludi.html

PLEASE GIVE TO THE MAGNA MATER PROJECT @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/magnamater6.html
----------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

EMILIA CURIA FINNICA QUIRITIBUS SPD

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

Many of the contests of Ludi Cerialia, April 19th - 26th, are still
available for subscription. Honour Ceres with your participation and
some of her honour may shine on you!
---------------
* Have a look at the program of Ludi Cerialia:
http://www.insulaumbra.com/aedilisplebis_ecf/index_cerialia.html



* Striving for the championship of the year or just want to have fun?
Don't miss out the Ludi Circenses!
See the Ludi Circenses page for the new rules that I and Aediles
Curules have agreed upon. One of them is the championship. By winning
it you can bring honour to your whole factio!
-1 chariot, 6 tactics, 3 rounds
---------------
*SUBSCRIBE BY APRIL 16TH!*
http://www.insulaumbra.com/aedilisplebis_ecf/index_cer_circenses.html



* Amazing show with wild furious beasts and brave gladiators, Venationes!
Still room for your gladiators and beasts, take your chances and send them!
-2 gladiators, animals or both, 11 types alltogether, 3 tactics
---------------
*SUBSCRIBE BY APRIL 18TH!*
http://www.insulaumbra.com/aedilisplebis_ecf/index_cer_venationes.html



* Challenge yourself and your friend or enemy to the Cerialia
Cultural Challenge!
All around enthusiast about Roman culture? Or only interested in a
specific part? The best rating in this easy and fun quiz could be
yours, and if not, the single best essay type answer to your favorite
theme could be the one you sent. Cerialia Cultural Challenge is
something for everyone!
-3 multiple choice questions and one essay type question in each 5
cultural themes of the quiz: Agricultura - Militia Romana - Religio
Romana - Oratores et Philosophi - Historia Romana
---------------
*SUBSCRIBE BY APRIL 12TH!*
http://www.insulaumbra.com/aedilisplebis_ecf/index_cer_ccc.html

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

Valete,
--


Emilia Curia Finnica
Scriba Araniae Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Aedilis Plebis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Will the fair and resourceful Spuria Septima Fabia Vera Fausta

enjoy the

> taste of divine favour, or....shall victory "passover" our ordained
> gubernatorial keeper of the sacred mysteries?
>

THE LAMENT OF FAUSTA

Poor Fausta's
had a roust'a
Now Cunovinda's
justa flinder.
Ambrosius's Cice is so syncopated,
he left Fabia's glad de-capitated.....
Eheu alas, Fortuna's not mine,
but our dear Po' has been an emcee divine!

Ave Ambrosi! to you the Victory!!
bene valete in pace deorum,
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

> _________________________________________________________________
> http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-

ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar
ket_MSNIS_Taglines

A. Apollonius Cordus wrote:

> But this is an important issue: often Roman
> names imply things about their bearers, and people
> need to be fully aware of these implications before
> they choose their names, or else they will find
> themselves saddled with misleading names which give
> people the wrong impression about them.

Thank you for clarifying your statement. As it stands now, it does make
much more sense. I also agree with your assessment of naming procedures
based on the new equality of Nova Roma, although, as a non-citizen, I really
don't feel it is my place to debate procedure.

As an applicant for citizenship, let me now ask a question regarding names.
I'll use the name I chose for myself as an example.

I chose the name Sulpicia because I'm a poet. Sulpicia is the name one of
the few female Roman poets (or perhaps the only one) whose work has survived
to the present day. I'd like to honor her by striving to live up to her
name.

I chose "Sylvana" as my cognomen because I'm a tree lover and I love hiking
in the woods all the time. The woods are my temple. It would make sense
for such a tree lover to be called "Sylvana", wouldn't it?

Setting aside the gens question, do these sound like good reasons for
selecting these names?

-Sylvana

Salve,

It wouldn't have effected my decision either way. I, however,
wouldn't expect this to be the prevailing sentiment. I paid my taxes
today after some kind citizen graciously informed me of the paypal
link on the homepage. I can afford to, and I want to make sure my
fellow citizens know I'm dedicated, despite being new. I think some
would be turned off by taxes, while others would be more interested--
since the idea of mandatory taxation lends an air of legitimacy to
certain aspects of the Nova Roma agenda. Just one newbie's view!

Vale,

S. Cassius Vespillo



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve and welcome to our new citizens.
>
> I hope your next 50 years or so with us will be filled with

enjoyment, good friendships and an increased understanding of Roma
and Nova Roma.

>
> I have a question.
>
> A discussion is currently ongoing about taxes and I was wondering

how it would have effected your application for citizenship if you
had been told up front that you were required to pay taxes of $12 US
dollars or less for per year.

>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Tribunus Plebs
> Assidui
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Illustris Senator Maxime,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply ;-)

I am looking for the volumes that cover the period from the early
republic to the principate. I would be most grateful if you could
provide ISBN numbers so that I can trace these books at my local bok
shop...

Optime Vale

Moravius Laureatus

>
> What Volume do you want? I'm sure I can run it down for you.
> Vale
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE QVIRITES!
This mail had to be sent yesterday but, for some technical problems
that
we are experincing, it was not possible.
So, the answers for this questions can be sent to mm_quiz@...
(mm_quiz AT yahoo DOT com) within the next 24 hours. In few minutes
also
the Question V will be, hopefully, sent.
thanks

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here the answer to the question we've asked you yesterday!

Quiz n.3 - Where was taken from the black stone representing Magna
Mater? And where was it first placed when it reached Rome?

Answer:
The stone representing MM was taken at Pessinun, Phrygia, in Asia
Minor.

It was placed, as it reached Rome, in the Temple of Victory, on the
Palatine Hill.


TEMPORARY CLASSIFICATION HISTORICAL CONTEST MAGNA MATER
According to the answers received, we now have:

5 pts. Caius Ianus Flaminius;
4 pts. Gnaeus Equitius Marinus; Titus Octavius Pius; Quintus Lanius
Paulinus;
3 pts. Gaius Lanius Falco;
2 pts. Lucius Cornelius Cicero; Lucius Rutilius Minervalis

Here follows the fourth question for the Historical Contest!

Quiz n.4 - Who was the consul defeated and killed at lake Trasimenus,
during the II Punic War? Who elected Q Fabius Maximus Dictator in 217
b.C., after this battle?

we are waiting for you answers, and remember that you have just to
write

at mm_quiz@... (mm_quiz AT yahoo DOT com). The term for sending
the answers will be tomorrow 8th at 19 Roman Time.

It's not important if you haven't done yesterday: YOU can begin now!



valete

M IVLIVS PERVSIANVS
------------------------------------------------------------------
ENJOY THE LUDI MEGALESIA 2004 @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/ludi.html
PLEASE GIVE TO THE MAGNA MATER PROJECT @
http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/magnamater6.html
------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvete Quirites, et salve Sylvana,

Sylvana writes:

> As an applicant for citizenship, let me now ask a question regarding names.
> I'll use the name I chose for myself as an example.
>
> I chose the name Sulpicia because I'm a poet. Sulpicia is the name one of
> the few female Roman poets (or perhaps the only one) whose work has survived
> to the present day. I'd like to honor her by striving to live up to her
> name.
>
> I chose "Sylvana" as my cognomen because I'm a tree lover and I love hiking
> in the woods all the time. The woods are my temple. It would make sense
> for such a tree lover to be called "Sylvana", wouldn't it?
>
> Setting aside the gens question, do these sound like good reasons for
> selecting these names?

They certainly do to me. I think you've chosen carefully, and in the
tradition established by the founders of Nova Roma.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Q. Salix Cantaber URANICUS wrote:

[...]

> Remember that you can read the stories in
> http://aediles.novaroma.org/perusianus/ludi/m_circ_results.html#semifinals

I'm pleased to see that my driver, Petronius Gnipho, has managed to get
himself and my chariot Vita Brevis into the Finals. I do offer my
friends in Factio Albata an apology for Petro's less than stellar start,
but I remind you all that he came out of retirement to drive for me
while my primary driver, Aoife, is recovering from the injuries she
suffered in the last Ludi.

Congratulations to Factio Russata for getting two chariots into the
Final race, and to Factio Veneta for the success of their chariot
Invictus. I'll see you at the Finals, where any one of us can win.

We'll see if age and cunning really does beat youth and enthusiasm...

Valete!

-- Marinus

I hereby resign from the position of Curator Araneum, to be effective
May 1, or earlier at the option of the Consuls.

I will continue to host the site for no charge.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
moderation is for monks. - Heinlein

Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus wrote:

> I am looking for the volumes that cover the period from the early
> republic to the principate. I would be most grateful if you could
> provide ISBN numbers so that I can trace these books at my local

bok

> shop...

I've sent you links to the information for all volumes in the series,
so no-one else need worry about it :)

Livia

SALVETE CIVES

As I figured out I can sometimes get an internet connection when I
have time here in NJ, I've decided to continue for this month too
with `Interview the Expert!`.

So, for this month we have Prof. Fem. Silvia Giorcelli Bersani; she
is Professor at the University of Torino, and teaches Roman History
and Latin Epigraphy. She has done many studies about Romanization of
northern Italy; she even collaborates to Supplementa Italica of
Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum.

So, enjoy this Expert, and start asking your questions, to:
21aprile AT email DOT it. Visit our website:
http://www.novaroma.org/expert/index.htm

You have time till the 10th of May!

OPTIME VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Academia Italica

Lucius Cassius Pontonius wrote:

> A quick plan:
> 12.00 for regular citizens
> 20.00 for scriba and other assistants
> 30.00 for provincial Magistrates and quaestors
> 35.00 for senators and tribunes of the plebs
> 40.00 for Higher Magistrates (consul, censor)

And later, along the same lines, Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
wrote:

> 3. Thereafter all citizens will be taxed according to their status

in

> NR. For instance following this table :
>
> Senators $100
> Equites £75
> Patricians $50
> Plebeians $25

And I feel I have to express serious reservations about this style of
taxation.

Nova Roma is a voluntary organisation and we're very lucky to have
people who are prepared to devote their time to us when, by doing the
same sorts of things (web design/programming, teaching, accounting,
to give but a few examples) in a job in the real world, they could be
earning money for using those same skills. Is it therefore fair to
charge people for being more active? Do we want to bar people with
less money from the higher magistracies, or force them to resign
their citizenship if they are adlected to the Senate? We are
currently lacking one Plebeian Aedile in any case, and no-one seems
to be willing to step up and take the job on - does anyone think we
would get more volunteers for essential magistracies if it would cost
money as well as time?

It's a simple fact that some people have an abundance of time to
devote, but are short of money. The example of a friend of mine (not
a citizen) springs to mind - she is seriously disabled and cannot
work, therefore living off an annual disability allowance of a few
thousand pounds, but she spends most of her time sitting at home on
the internet. This is the sort of person who could easily devote
enough time to Nova Roma to be an excellent magistrate, but who
genuinely would find even a few dollars a month an intolerable strain
(especially if she had to pay it all at once at the beginning of the
year - but payment by installments is a story for another time!)

Also, it is worth bearing in mind throughout these discussions that
flat-rate taxation of individual citizens regardless of economic
circumstance is not the way in which most states acquire money. If
we want more money as an organisation, it is worth considering
alternative strategies.

Livia

Ave Iuli Perusiane et salvete Quirites

It is an honor to have contributed to the cultural life of Nova Roma, and I also hope that Cicero provided entertainment in the arena. A
wonderful job, Perusianus.

Valete.
Aulus Ambrosius Celetrus

Salve Marcus Octavius Germanicus.

I do not know what caused you to make this decision but your service the Republic is very much appreciated and
your expertise as Curator Araneum will be hard to replace. I hope everything is alright with you and yours.

Thank you for your service.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunes Plebs
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Curator exit.



I hereby resign from the position of Curator Araneum, to be effective
May 1, or earlier at the option of the Consuls.

I will continue to host the site for no charge.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
moderation is for monks. - Heinlein





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 08/04/04 11:10:02 GMT Daylight Time,
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com writes:

(Snipped for brevity)

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete.
>
> This is an issue that has bothered me from the inception of Nova Roma's
> taxation plan, and I *wholeheartedly* agree with Gaius Modius: paying
> your taxes should be a minimum requirement for citizenship. As with
> Gaius Modius, I am by no means a "rich" man, but I fail to see how $12 a
> year can be regarded as too onerous a price to pay for Nova Roma.

I hate to say it, but I can't see how Nova Roma is ever > going to achieve

> its goals when
> over 75% of it's citizens are not even > dedicated enough to cough up the
> price of a pizza

once a year to support them.

> AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:

(Snipped for brevity)

>Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto SPD
>
> >I agree. Personally, I don't think citizenship should be given out so
> freely. I think citizens should *at least* be required to pay taxes to keep
> their citizenship. I know this is an unpopular opinion with many people. I am
> no rich man. I don't value wealth as much as I value other things in my life,
> however, I can muster up $12 a year to pay my taxes. If a person simply
> *cannot* afford $1 a month then it is my opinion that they should worry about
> other things, instead of worrying about belonging to Nova Roma.

Placidia Prisca Quiritibus SPD

I agree that we should be prepared to pay the required tax, which is a very
reasonable amount, in order to participate fully and exercise our rights as
citizens. Having said that, for some of us it isn't all that easy. I live in
Provincia Britannia where, this year, there is no arrangement for paying the £5
NR tax in local currency. My bank wants to charge me £8, on top of the £5
tax, to send the payment in US$. Alternatively, an International Money Order has
a minimum handling charge of £12. On top of this I will also need to cover
the cost of airmail postage so, all in all, it's going to cost a great deal
more than the value of the tax payment.

I am very eager to pay, because I want to stay Assidui. Prior to finding
myself in this situation I had little patience with those who seemed reluctant to
pay, but now I can see there might be another explanation for some citizens
apparent unwillingness to put their hand in their pocket. If there was a
mandatory arrangement, in all Provinces, for taxes to be paid in local currency it
might go some way towards making life a little easier for those of us who
don't normally deal in dollars. Perhaps this might be given some thought before
the next lot of taxes is due.

Salvete,

Placidia Prisca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave Celetre,

>A wonderful job, Perusianus.

thank you very much

M IVL PERVSIANVS

Servius Fidelius Longinus Tiberio Galerio Paulino S.P.D.

Nearing my first anniversary of becoming a citizen within Nova Roma, I still
consider myself "new." When I came upon the Nova Roma web site I was casually
doing some recreational research. After going through the site a few times
it was apparent to me the cost of taxes and the options before potential new
citizens (to be a tax payer or a nontax payer). I considered $12.00 to be
minimal and acceptable. Upon further interaction (participating in the military
games, gaining a wealth of information from other citizens, attending the
"university," and being encouraged to attend "Roman Days" in Maryland) I have more
than recovered my tax payment. Shoot, a bowling league costs more!

Nova Roma is what you make of it. For me it is a welcomed escape from the
mundane and a thoroughly enjoyable adventure into the academic. Thanks!

Vale!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

As a new citizen, I must admit that paying taxes was somewhat
unclear. If it had not been for the fact that Merlinia Ambrosia told
me about them as well as it being mentioned on the group, I would not
have known about them. I definitely didn't know about them before I
applied as a citizen since there is nothing on the application about
them. I do believe that something should be mentioned on the
application about taxes.

Now, for me $12 was not too much to afford, considering that it is
basically a $1 a month, although if it was much more than that, I
probably would be unable to afford the cost, since I'm an unemployed
college student at the moment.

As for others not being able to afford $12, a similar amount should
be converted for other countries that would be equal to the cost of a
pizza or something like that to make it fair as some people really
can't afford $12US. Even some small contribution of a dollar or two
would be better than nothing.

I do think that everyone should pay taxes though of some amount. For
one, if you pay for something, you are more likely to be more active.
True, this will not hold to some but to others it will. For two, it
will get rid of some citizens and applications of those that aren't
really interested in being here. Plus, if everyone pays some amount
of taxes, then there will be no need to raise taxes.

I know that I'm new and don't really understand even half what goes
on yet in Nova Roma, but those are my opinions on the taxes issue.
After all, there are only two things certain in life: death and taxes.

Valete,
L. Ambrosia Apollinaris

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, KECTAM@a... wrote:

> I agree that we should be prepared to pay the required tax, which

is a very

> reasonable amount, in order to participate fully and exercise our

rights as

> citizens. Having said that, for some of us it isn't all that

easy. I live in

> Provincia Britannia where, this year, there is no arrangement for

paying the £5

> NR tax in local currency. My bank wants to charge me £8, on top of

the £5

> tax, to send the payment in US$. Alternatively, an International

Money Order has

> a minimum handling charge of £12. On top of this I will also need

to cover

> the cost of airmail postage so, all in all, it's going to cost a

great deal

> more than the value of the tax payment.

Salve,

I can't offer to do this officially, because although I've
volunteered to replace our current governor I haven't been accepted
yet as there hasn't been a senate meeting.

However, if you trust me (on a personal level) to do it for you, I
can pay your taxes for you via paypal to the treasury and you can
send me a personal cheque for the money.

I'm the Quaestor currently in charge of the tax collection in any
case if that helps you trust me! It's silly that you should have to
pay twice as much as you owe just to get the right amount to the
treasury.

Livia

L. Ambrosia Apollinaris wrote:

> As for others not being able to afford $12, a similar amount should
> be converted for other countries that would be equal to the cost of

a

> pizza or something like that to make it fair as some people really
> can't afford $12US. Even some small contribution of a dollar or two
> would be better than nothing.

There is currently a system of adjustment of amount by country. For
example, some of our citizens in Africa pay $0.30 taxes per year.

Livia

Salvete Quirites,

Gaia Fabia Livia wrote:

[about helping people in Britannia to get their annual taxes paid]

> I can't offer to do this officially, because although I've
> volunteered to replace our current governor I haven't been accepted
> yet as there hasn't been a senate meeting.

Nor, given the many religious festival days in April, can there be one
any time soon.

> However, if you trust me (on a personal level) to do it for you, I
> can pay your taxes for you via paypal to the treasury and you can
> send me a personal cheque for the money.

First, I'd like to publically thank Gaia Fabia for making this offer.
It's kind of her, and further proof of her dedication to Nova Roma.
(Not that any of us who know her needed such.)

Second, since she is my Consular Accensa I would be willing, with the
concurrance of the outgoing Propraetor of Britannia, to issue an edictum
giving her a special appointment to act officially as a tax collection
agent for Provincia Britannia.

> I'm the Quaestor currently in charge of the tax collection in any
> case if that helps you trust me!

This bears repeating. Gaia Fabia Livia has stepped in and taken over
the duties that Livia Cornelia Hibernia left when she resigned. Fabia
has very quickly gotten things up to speed and has performed her
Quaestorial duties in an exemplary manner. Nova Roma owes her its thanks.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Moravi,

I'd like to address some points that Gaius Movavius raised.

Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus wrote:

> Many thanks to whoever started the (now familiar and recurrent) tax
> thread : It reminded me that I hadn't paid mine ! It is done now.

Thank you. I hope our other citizens will follow your fine example if
they haven't already done so.

> While we are on the subject, may suggest an eventual plan of action?

You may, but please realize the system we have is one that we arrived at
after much debate and discussion. It's not something we decided on
capriciously or ill-advisedly.

> Please note that all figures below are in US dollars and would be
> converted according to our current (IMHO excellent) system that
> accounts for national income differences.

For those who may not know how that works, our annual tax rate is set at
1/3000 of the Gross Domestic Product of a citizen's home country. We
obtain that data from the CIA World Factbook online during January, and
then establish the rate in local currency and US dollar values based on
the exchange rates in effect sometime between 15 Jan and 30 Jan, as the
Consular Quaestor's time permits.

So while we often say, as a convenient shorthand, that the annual tax
rate is $12 US, it's really 1/3000 of your home country's GDP, rounded
up or down to the nearest whole number.

> 1. Taxes will be mandatory and the condition necessary to retain
> citizenship.

First, this would require a constitutional amendment. Secondly, it
would impose an ex post facto rule on current citizens who obtained Nova
Roman citizenship by signing up at reenactment events, or some such
process, and who don't normally interact with us via the net. It's one
thing for me as a provincial governor to meet with these people and
encourage them to pay the annual tax. It's very different for me to
have to tell them that they either pay up or we're going to kick them out.

> 2. All new citizens will be exempt from tax for a full year in order
> to get a feel of how NR works and understand why we need funds.

I think this is better managed by encouraging people to participate as
perigrines for a while before requesting citizenship.

> 3. Thereafter all citizens will be taxed according to their status in
> NR. For instance following this table :
>
> Senators $100
> Equites £75
> Patricians $50
> Plebeians $25

I'm assuming you meant to use the dollar sign for the Equites, yes? But
in any case, I would oppose this. While it would make Nova Roma much
more like Roma Antiqua in terms of equating social status with wealth,
it runs counter to the concept of a meritocracy established when Nova
Roma was founded. Furthermore, I have to take exception to a different
rate for Plebians, and not just because I am myself a Patrician. The
only thing a Patrician in NR enjoys is a shot at a few priesthoods and
the extra five century points per year. But we can't run for the
plebian magistracies, which are important as a way of establishing one's
self in Nova Roma.

> Pater/materfamilias would also be paying an extra $25

Given the Lex Labiena we passed in December and the Senate ratified in
January, we're in the process of going from gentes to familia.
Therefore a tax on heads of families would be particularly repugnant, as
far as I'm concerned.

> How about that?

See my thoughts above.

> Will that bring us closer to Roma Antiqua?

Definitely not. Oh, it'd make things more dependent on wealth, but
Roman citizens didn't pay taxes at all. Taxes in antiquity were
something that came from the provinces, and were collected by "tax
farmers" who had a contract with the Senate to deliver a certain amount
of money each year.

> Will this system of mandatory taxes show the world how serious and
> committed we are?

Nope. What will show the world proof of our seriousness is when we have
established ourselves as a good source of information about Roma
Antiqua. That's being done by scholars like Gaius Iulius Scaurus, who
give of their time to the betterment of us all.

> Will that prevent the flood of bogus applications and of ghosts cives?

What flood? I don't know of a flood of bogus applications, and I
certainly don't know of ghost citizens. In addition to being the
Consul, I'm governor of Nova Roma's largest province in terms of
population. I've been in contact with every one of my citizens, either
by e-mail or by phone or by postal mail or in face-to-face conversation,
within the last year. Those I was not able to contact I dropped from
the rolls of citizenship, and even after that I still have the largest
population of any province.

I understand that it's easy to come into Nova Roma and get false
impressions. But I want to make it clear that Nova Roma is much more
than the people who are active on these mailing lists. We have many
citizens who are not reading these lists, but who are proud of their
Nova Roman citizenship. Please don't forget or marginalize them.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Salve Amice!

We owe You a lot and I have understood that You have got into a
situation where You lack the time to hold two magistracies. I thank
You from the bottom of my heart for the work You have done!

>I hereby resign from the position of Curator Araneum, to be effective
>May 1, or earlier at the option of the Consuls.
>
>I will continue to host the site for no charge.
>
>--
>Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
>http://www.graveyards.com/
>Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
>moderation is for monks. - Heinlein

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

Regarding the tax issue:

Nova Roma isn't going to achieve the long term goals outlined in our
constitution, mission statement and "Declaration of the New Rome" in
any of our life times with out *a lot* of money, money which is not
going just to drop out of the sky into our treasury. Nova Roma
collected around $2800 in taxes last year, and I suspect 2004 will see
roughly similar numbers (higher one hopes...). Considering our current
theoretical population of 2228, that is a pretty poor showing, and at
this rate I'm afraid I'll be paying the ferryman before I see Nova
Roma's first public building.

Under the circumstances, I can't help but worry that the majority of
Nova Romans do not take Nova Roma and it's mission all that seriously.
That they simply regard it as an interesting diversion or amusement, an
online social outlet or perhaps even some sort of role-playing game.
Perhaps it's our own fault for not educating new citizens on what Nova
Roma is really about, what our goals are, and how seriously we believe
in them. I find it troubling that we have citizens who didn't even know
we *had* taxes when they applied for citizenship, or that we are
primarily a religious organization, or that we are serious about the
sovereignty issue.

I doubt we are going to change the way we collect taxes or the amount
collected any time soon, but perhaps we can try and do a better job
educating new citizens on their civic responsibility, Nova Roma's
mission, and *why* it is so important that they pay their $12 once a year.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

(Hopefully I'm not being too incoherent, as I just dragged myself out of
bed!)

Salve Marinus

Thank you for explaining how the taxes are calculated.

> > Will that prevent the flood of bogus applications and of ghosts

cives?

>
> What flood? I don't know of a flood of bogus applications, and I
> certainly don't know of ghost citizens.

There may not be a flood of bogus applications but you do know of
some ghost citizens thanks to my goof the other day. So everyone
else has some clue what I'm talking about, I was fairly recently
made the legate for Regionis Orientalis within the province of Lacus
Magni (Great Lakes region of the US). I asked for info on the
citizens in my area. Technically there are 75. If I compare my
list to those listed in the province, the lists are identical.
However, by going gens by gens in the Album Gentium I discovered
that 35 of them are no longer listed in their gens (only about 8
were/are gens Nemo). Those same 35 failed to respond to the census
and many had bad mail and email addresses. I mistakenly emailed
Marinus (instead of CFQ) wondering how this could be corrected. I
would think this qualifies as ghost citizens. Considering that I
lost nearly half of my region's population with one scan of the gens
list, I wonder how many other regions / provinces might see their
population decline considerably if they did the same.

> Those I was not able to contact I dropped from
> the rolls of citizenship, and even after that I still have the

largest

> population of any province.

I did the same with the 35 mentioned above.

> I understand that it's easy to come into Nova Roma and get false
> impressions. But I want to make it clear that Nova Roma is much

more

> than the people who are active on these mailing lists. We have

many

> citizens who are not reading these lists, but who are proud of

their

> Nova Roman citizenship. Please don't forget or marginalize them.

Thank you for pointing that out. I never realized that people were
signed up at events and what not - or that there would be those who
would not be subscribed, at least in "web-only" mode for this list.

Vale,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia
Legate, Regionis Orientalis
The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

A. Apollonius Cordus to Cn. Iulius Caesar, and to all
his fellow-citizens, greetings.

I hope you're well; I'm well.

I shan't quote your message, but let me say that I
agree with a great deal of what you say. As we move
towards a more historical family system it will become
still more important that family members take
responsibility for one another, just as one would
expect of blood relatives, and this can best be
encouraged by limiting the intrusion of the state into
their internal affairs except where this is the only
way to remedy serious dysfunction.

Another way to look at it is this: yes, we could make
laws to bypass inactive or slothful patres- or
matresfamilias with regard to the admission of new
members, but by doing so we would be working against
the Darwinian self-regulating system in which active
gentes are rewarded with more applicants and are able
to admit them quickly, while inactive ones lose
potential members by failing to respond quickly to applications.





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A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend and colleague C.
Moravius Laureatus Armoricus, and to all his
fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

On your suggestion for higher tax-rates for
magistrates, I'm afraid I have to side with Fabia
Livia. First of all, there is no historical precedent
for it, which should always make us wary of an idea
unless its other benefits are overwhelming. Secondly,
it seems a lot like penalizing people for volunteering
their time and labour. Magistrates already make a
greater contribution to Nova Roma than the average
citizen, which is why they are rewarded with prestige
and influence; there is no reason to say that because
they are making an above-average contribution of time
they should be required to make an above-average
contribution of money also.

It's also worth remembering that for the Romans, like
everyone else, taxes were things to be avoided if
possible: when campaigns in Macedonia made it
economically feasible to abolish taxes in Italy, they
did it without hesitation. Indeed, all states work
like this: they raise revenue to meet their needs. Of
course it's perfectly true to say that in order to
achieve our eventual goal we'll need lots of money,
but that's not a very helpful or precise calculation.
What are the specific policies we would wish to put
into action if we could only fund them, and how much
would they cost? Having answered this question, we can
start to think seriously about how to raise the
necessary revenue.

And of course there are many ways to raise revenue, of
which personal taxation is only one. The tariffs on
goods traded in the Macellum could be raised; the
state could increase the price, production or
marketing of those goods it sells directly, or start
to sell new products; sodalitates could be charged
annual registration fees; campaigns to increase
voluntary donations could be mounted. And even if the
answer is personal taxation, there are many different
ways to go about it: the census could include a
requirement for citizens to declare their income
bracket, allowing taxes to be adjusted to match
income; or, as you suggest, taxes could be made
compulsory for all.

The key point is that before we start on any of these
routes we need to know what the money is for and how
much is needed; only then can we usefully consider the
best way to raise it. But it is clear that there is at
least some support for the idea of increasing state
revenue, so magistrates should allow themselves to
contemplate policies and projects which would cost
money: if the policy is good, there may well be ways
to fund it; but the policy must come first.





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A. Apollonius Cordus to all his fellow-citizens and
all peregrines, greetings.

Censor M. Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> I hereby resign from the position of Curator
> Araneum, to be effective
> May 1, or earlier at the option of the Consuls.

<sigh>

Well, friends, at least the quality of the
resignations is improving. Next we can work on
reducing the quantity.

For the record, I thank the Censor for giving due
notice, and I hope he will be willing to stay on in
office until a replacement can be elected and settled
in, even if this should prove to take slightly longer
than three weeks.





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Salvete Quirites, et salve Agrippina Modia,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia wrote:

[about her discovery of 35 people who were still listed in the census
rolls but had disappeared from the gens rolls.]

> I would think this qualifies as ghost citizens.

It certainly qualifies as a Faux Pas on someone's part. Those people
should have been off the census rolls last year.

> Considering that I
> lost nearly half of my region's population with one scan of the gens
> list, I wonder how many other regions / provinces might see their
> population decline considerably if they did the same.

I have no idea. I suspect the number would be significant, and I think
this is related to some problems that have contributed to the recent
resignation of Marcus Octavius Germanicus as webmaster. I think he's
swamped at work, and not able to devote the huge number of hours to Nova
Roma that he has in the past. This has also affected his ability to
keep current with his Censorial tasks, and he has had to shed one of his
magistracies in order to concentrate on the other.

> I never realized that people were
> signed up at events and what not - or that there would be those who
> would not be subscribed, at least in "web-only" mode for this list.

Oh yeah. At least in Mediatlantica the majority of citizens who've been
in NR for five or more years are not active on the main list, but are
very reliable when it comes to being at reenactor events. One of the
problems that we've always faced with the larger reenactor community is
a perception that NR is a "glorified BBS," and we have a lot of people
who just don't want to get involved with the mailing lists for precisely
that reason. They joined for the Roman citizenship. They are proud of
it. But their participation in NR is limited to face-to-face events.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salve Illustris Consul, Equiti Marine, et omnes,

May I thank you for taking the time to respond to my latest message.
Although I intended it to be more a thought provoker than an actual
proposal I am pleased that you addressed clearly and unequivocally
some of the points raised.

As some of you may remember, I have been in the past, among many
others who now have left, an advocate of free membership to Nova
Roma. My recent experience as a legatus in Britannia and censorial
scriba however have made me reconsider my position on the subject.
Indeed at a time when NR is struggling to get a foot in the real
world, one has to consider facing many difficulties, and not least
the cost of being "visible". That is for example the cost of
mailing "real" documents, the cost of organising "real" life events
etc.
We are not talking here of thousands of dollars or pounds but just
running costs, pennies that add up at the end of the day. It did
occur to me, then, that as a "real" entity Nova Roma will be
facing "real" costs. These costs will be needing funding.

Now, I realise that taxes are only one of the means to raise money
alongside voluntary donations and fund raising events. But taxes have
the advantage of being predictable and can be budgeted as a source of
income providing that they are made mandatory.

How much exactly each of us will pay is at the moment besides the
point and frankly my little list was purely theoritical and a bit of
a provocation. I am a firm believer in egalitarian treatment and I do
not dream of imposing different amounts of taxes upon citizens
depending on their status in NR. Nonetheless, senators and higher
magistrates, as prime policy makers and guides to the Republic should
be ready to put their money, literally, where their mouth is.

One last point on the comment you made when I mentionned "ghost"
citizens. You said :

> What flood? I don't know of a flood of bogus applications, and I
> certainly don't know of ghost citizens.

Let's not mentionned the socii who, last time I checked, are not
citizens. But they have in the past been accepted and have taken much
censorial time in being set up as active citizens and then as socii
on the last census : these are the lost citizens I am refering to.
As for the flood of "bogus applications", I would respectfully refer
you to the work the censorial office is facing at present : We are
investing everyday new applications from prospective citizens who do
not take the time to read our web site and do not follow the advice
on name practices set up (sometime awkwarldy I must admit) on the
main web site. Some applications do not have proper address details,
some are duplicates. Of all these "problem" applications that are
investigated, less than half are resolved when the propspective
citizens take time to get in touch with us. The rest just "disappear"
and clutter our data base.

The commitment of the newest citizens that have written on the main
list recently is a testimony to the hard work of Censores M. Octavius
Germanicus and C. Fabius Quintilianus in welcoming and guiding truly
interested people. But most of all it illustrates my point : If taxes
were made mandatory, and advertised clearly as such on the
application form, we would greatly reduce the number of "bogus"
applications while making sure that only genuinely commited and
interested citizens take the time to contact us.

I leave it to our magistrates to make exceptions to the mandatory tax
rule should one of the prospective citizens not be able to afford it
but the main principle behind it remains. As I said earlier, I have
become a convert to the necessity of taxes : I will now officially
support any proposal that moves towards this goal for the reasons set
up above.

I am, as always, looking forward to your comments and constructive
criticism.

Optime Valete

C. Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Scriba Censoris CFQ

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Moravi,
>
> I'd like to address some points that Gaius Movavius raised.
>
> Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus wrote:
>
> > Many thanks to whoever started the (now familiar and recurrent)

tax

> > thread : It reminded me that I hadn't paid mine ! It is done now.
>
> Thank you. I hope our other citizens will follow your fine example

if

> they haven't already done so.
>
> > While we are on the subject, may suggest an eventual plan of

action?

>
> You may, but please realize the system we have is one that we

arrived at

> after much debate and discussion. It's not something we decided on
> capriciously or ill-advisedly.
>
> > Please note that all figures below are in US dollars and would be
> > converted according to our current (IMHO excellent) system that
> > accounts for national income differences.
>
> For those who may not know how that works, our annual tax rate is

set at

> 1/3000 of the Gross Domestic Product of a citizen's home country.

We

> obtain that data from the CIA World Factbook online during January,

and

> then establish the rate in local currency and US dollar values

based on

> the exchange rates in effect sometime between 15 Jan and 30 Jan, as

the

> Consular Quaestor's time permits.
>
> So while we often say, as a convenient shorthand, that the annual

tax

> rate is $12 US, it's really 1/3000 of your home country's GDP,

rounded

> up or down to the nearest whole number.
>
> > 1. Taxes will be mandatory and the condition necessary to retain
> > citizenship.
>
> First, this would require a constitutional amendment. Secondly, it
> would impose an ex post facto rule on current citizens who obtained

Nova

> Roman citizenship by signing up at reenactment events, or some such
> process, and who don't normally interact with us via the net. It's

one

> thing for me as a provincial governor to meet with these people and
> encourage them to pay the annual tax. It's very different for me

to

> have to tell them that they either pay up or we're going to kick

them out.

>
> > 2. All new citizens will be exempt from tax for a full year in

order

> > to get a feel of how NR works and understand why we need funds.
>
> I think this is better managed by encouraging people to participate

as

> perigrines for a while before requesting citizenship.
>
> > 3. Thereafter all citizens will be taxed according to their

status in

> > NR. For instance following this table :
> >
> > Senators $100
> > Equites £75
> > Patricians $50
> > Plebeians $25
>
> I'm assuming you meant to use the dollar sign for the Equites,

yes? But

> in any case, I would oppose this. While it would make Nova Roma

much

> more like Roma Antiqua in terms of equating social status with

wealth,

> it runs counter to the concept of a meritocracy established when

Nova

> Roma was founded. Furthermore, I have to take exception to a

different

> rate for Plebians, and not just because I am myself a Patrician.

The

> only thing a Patrician in NR enjoys is a shot at a few priesthoods

and

> the extra five century points per year. But we can't run for the
> plebian magistracies, which are important as a way of establishing

one's

> self in Nova Roma.
>
>
> > Pater/materfamilias would also be paying an extra $25
>
> Given the Lex Labiena we passed in December and the Senate ratified

in

> January, we're in the process of going from gentes to familia.
> Therefore a tax on heads of families would be particularly

repugnant, as

> far as I'm concerned.
>
> > How about that?
>
> See my thoughts above.
>
> > Will that bring us closer to Roma Antiqua?
>
> Definitely not. Oh, it'd make things more dependent on wealth, but
> Roman citizens didn't pay taxes at all. Taxes in antiquity were
> something that came from the provinces, and were collected by "tax
> farmers" who had a contract with the Senate to deliver a certain

amount

> of money each year.
>
> > Will this system of mandatory taxes show the world how serious

and

> > committed we are?
>
> Nope. What will show the world proof of our seriousness is when we

have

> established ourselves as a good source of information about Roma
> Antiqua. That's being done by scholars like Gaius Iulius Scaurus,

who

> give of their time to the betterment of us all.
>
> > Will that prevent the flood of bogus applications and of ghosts

cives?

>
> What flood? I don't know of a flood of bogus applications, and I
> certainly don't know of ghost citizens. In addition to being the
> Consul, I'm governor of Nova Roma's largest province in terms of
> population. I've been in contact with every one of my citizens,

either

> by e-mail or by phone or by postal mail or in face-to-face

conversation,

> within the last year. Those I was not able to contact I dropped

from

> the rolls of citizenship, and even after that I still have the

largest

> population of any province.
>
> I understand that it's easy to come into Nova Roma and get false
> impressions. But I want to make it clear that Nova Roma is much

more

> than the people who are active on these mailing lists. We have

many

> citizens who are not reading these lists, but who are proud of

their

> Nova Roman citizenship. Please don't forget or marginalize them.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucia Ambrosia Apollinaris"
<AnglMscOG@a...> wrote:

> Salvete,

> As for others not being able to afford $12, a similar amount should
> be converted for other countries that would be equal to the cost of a
> pizza or something like that to make it fair as some people really
> can't afford $12US. Even some small contribution of a dollar or two
> would be better than nothing.

> L. Ambrosia Apollinaris

Salve,

The tax structure is set up with $12(US) being the baseline.
Countries that have a lower per capita income than the US actually pay
less than 12.00 US$. For instance this year Nova Romans in Australia
pay 12.00 AU$ or 9.30 US$. This of course doesn't take into account
the costs associated with international money transfers. In many
cases the Propraetor often acts as a central "clearinghouse" for
collection and transfer to Nova Roma's bank account.

It would be nice if Nova Roma could have bank accounts in the EU,
Australia, and Brazil to cut down on the costs of international money
transfers. On the down side it raises issues of accountability, tax
and liability issues as a Non-Profit Corporation, ect. Perhaps
someday in the future Nova Roma will have grown to the point that
having international bank accounts be a feasible reality.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Salve Placidia Prisca;

I would advise you to contact you Propraetor and make arrangements to pay the
tax to him, and then let him worry about the exchange rate. This is one
reason why the Senate appoints provincial governors.

Vale;

Gaius Modius

In a message dated 4/9/2004 10:04:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KECTAM@...
writes:
I agree that we should be prepared to pay the required tax, which is a very
reasonable amount, in order to participate fully and exercise our rights as
citizens. Having said that, for some of us it isn't all that easy. I live
in
Provincia Britannia where, this year, there is no arrangement for paying the
£5
NR tax in local currency. My bank wants to charge me £8, on top of the £5
tax, to send the payment in US$. Alternatively, an International Money Order
has
a minimum handling charge of £12. On top of this I will also need to cover
the cost of airmail postage so, all in all, it's going to cost a great deal
more than the value of the tax payment.

I am very eager to pay, because I want to stay Assidui. Prior to finding
myself in this situation I had little patience with those who seemed
reluctant to
pay, but now I can see there might be another explanation for some citizens
apparent unwillingness to put their hand in their pocket. If there was a
mandatory arrangement, in all Provinces, for taxes to be paid in local
currency it
might go some way towards making life a little easier for those of us who
don't normally deal in dollars. Perhaps this might be given some thought
before
the next lot of taxes is due.

Salvete,

Placidia Prisca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Placidia Prisca

I believe and someone will tell us if I am wrong but you can submit your payment to your provincial propraetor (governor) and when they have enough collected or the deadline is coming close they can sent it to the bank in the states. It does not make much sense for you to pay 20 pounds just to send us 5 pounds. Half the money stays in the province anyway. Maybe the Senate and each propraetor should look into a bank account for each province?


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: KECTAM@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Continuing the Tax discussion


In a message dated 08/04/04 11:10:02 GMT Daylight Time,
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com writes:

(Snipped for brevity)

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete.
>
> This is an issue that has bothered me from the inception of Nova Roma's
> taxation plan, and I *wholeheartedly* agree with Gaius Modius: paying
> your taxes should be a minimum requirement for citizenship. As with
> Gaius Modius, I am by no means a "rich" man, but I fail to see how $12 a
> year can be regarded as too onerous a price to pay for Nova Roma.

I hate to say it, but I can't see how Nova Roma is ever > going to achieve
> its goals when
> over 75% of it's citizens are not even > dedicated enough to cough up the
> price of a pizza
once a year to support them.


> AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:

(Snipped for brevity)


>Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto SPD
>
> >I agree. Personally, I don't think citizenship should be given out so
> freely. I think citizens should *at least* be required to pay taxes to keep
> their citizenship. I know this is an unpopular opinion with many people. I am
> no rich man. I don't value wealth as much as I value other things in my life,
> however, I can muster up $12 a year to pay my taxes. If a person simply
> *cannot* afford $1 a month then it is my opinion that they should worry about
> other things, instead of worrying about belonging to Nova Roma.

Placidia Prisca Quiritibus SPD

I agree that we should be prepared to pay the required tax, which is a very
reasonable amount, in order to participate fully and exercise our rights as
citizens. Having said that, for some of us it isn't all that easy. I live in
Provincia Britannia where, this year, there is no arrangement for paying the £5
NR tax in local currency. My bank wants to charge me £8, on top of the £5
tax, to send the payment in US$. Alternatively, an International Money Order has
a minimum handling charge of £12. On top of this I will also need to cover
the cost of airmail postage so, all in all, it's going to cost a great deal
more than the value of the tax payment.

I am very eager to pay, because I want to stay Assidui. Prior to finding
myself in this situation I had little patience with those who seemed reluctant to
pay, but now I can see there might be another explanation for some citizens
apparent unwillingness to put their hand in their pocket. If there was a
mandatory arrangement, in all Provinces, for taxes to be paid in local currency it
might go some way towards making life a little easier for those of us who
don't normally deal in dollars. Perhaps this might be given some thought before
the next lot of taxes is due.

Salvete,

Placidia Prisca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
<Gnaeus_Iulius_Caesar@...> wrote:

>

<snip>

>
> >
> > The problem should not be resolved by the Censors,
> nor by
> legislation. These are quick fixes which will not
> address the core
> problem � the need for the gens to regulate itself.
> If the gens has
> active NR citizens and a p/m familias that barely
> functions then it
> is beholden on them to deal with it behind closed
> doors, and deal
> with it quickly for the sake of the reputation of
> their gens and
> themselves as responsible family men and women. But
> how I hear you
> ask?
>
> The answer, to my mind, is simple and to be found in
> the Twelve
> Tables. A pater/mater familias that absents
> themselves, without good
> and reasonable cause, from their duties clearly has
> no sense of the
> obligations that have been placed upon them. They
> have lost any
> sense of Romanitas they had. To me they are
> therefore clearly
> insane. It is the insanity of allowing duty to be
> disregarded, of
> disgracing their gens by absenting themselves from
> the proper
> business of the family.
>
> "Table V: Guardianship
>
> 7a. If a man is raving mad, rightful authority over
> his person and
> chattels shall belong to his agnates or to his
> clansmen."
>
> It is the duty of the other members of his gens to
> declare him or
> here raving mad as a consequence of such an
> abrogation of duty and
> assume control of his duties. Following a tradition
> in Roman
> government the family should appoint (by mutual
> agreement hopefully �
> if not a vote) one of their number as an interrex
> pater/mater
> familias. Then in order to ensure due process and
> safeguard the
> rights of the now removed pater/mater familias, the
> matter should be
> put before one of the Praetors for a review. The
> Praetor if
> satisfied that the person is clearly "raving mad"
> (i.e. there is no
> good reason for his/her absenting themselves) should
> place the issue
> before one of the Comitia for a specific law to be
> passed declaring
> the former pater/mater familias to be removed from
> his position of
> authority and the interrex confirmed in that role.
>
>

I find this approach intriguing. The only
suggestion that I would make is that the matter be
referred not to the Praetors, but rather to the
Comitia Curiata, which is the entity that seems to be
most responsible for matters dealing with recognition
of families under the Nova Roman Constitution.

I believe that the pater/mater familia would still
have the option of appealing the decision to the
Comitia Populi Tributa. That way, if they feel
aggreived by the decision of the Comitia Curiata, they
still have an avenue of appeal to the entire people,
without either the Praetores or the Comitia Populi
Tributa being bogged down with these proceedings
constantly. It would be up to the individual
pater/mater to initiate the appeal, otherwise the
decision of the Comitia Curiata would be final and
binding.

Lucius Quintius Constantius

__________________________________
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Salvete omnes ~

With much said on this issue, one point has been overlooked which LAA
reminded me of.

On Friday, April 9, 2004, at 03:09 AM, Lucia Ambrosia Apollinaris
wrote:

>
> As a new citizen, I must admit that paying taxes was somewhat
> unclear. [Text Removed]

Many of the Posts during this discussion have made it clear that the
Website is UN-clear, which should be corrected. That's another matter,
though...

> Now, for me $12 was not too much to afford, considering that it is
> basically a $1 a month, although if it was much more than that, I
> probably would be unable to afford the cost, since I'm an unemployed
> college student at the moment.

This was what reminded me. I am Disabled (& therefore unemployed too),
yet I was also able to afford to pay our modest Tax. Not only that,
but to fulfill a Vow that I made during the Lex Minorum Debates I have
also paid the Tax for one of our Citizens who is a Minor. A friend of
mine decided to do the same, and another friend has sponsored someone
in her Province.

>
> As for others not being able to afford $12,

Recently another Citizen appealed for assistance in paying his Taxes,
as he has received such help before. If anyone genuinely cannot afford
$12, they should consider asking for help on the Main List ~ Odds are
that they will find a Sponsor.

> I do think that everyone should pay taxes though of some amount. For
> one, if you pay for something, you are more likely to be more active.

Anyone who enjoys being a Citizen of Nova Roma should pay their Tax if
they are at all able to. If the $12 is genuinely out of reach, they
should be encouraged to ask for help.

I would also like to ask that those who are able and willing to Sponsor
another Citizen please declare your willingness to help on the Main
List: Nova Roma needs active Assidui Citizens!

Valete
~ Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus

VICESIMA QUARTA
The Newsletter of
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA

APRIL 2004

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Praefectus - Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
610-353-4982
legionxxiv@... www.legionxxiv.org

Commilitones

ADVENAE - Newcomers
*** Jonathan Rennick romanista77@... has signed on from the northern reaches
of the Empire in Ottawa, Ontario. We will be looking for him to be in the ranks of the Legion
for our annual defense of Rome's interests at the Time Line Military Event at
Fort Malden, Amherstburg on July 31-August 1.

MARCHING THRU TIME
This event is only a week away on April 17 & 18, 11AM to 5PM.
It is a multi-period living history demonstration from Ancient Rome
up through Desert Storm. Many of the vendors we use will also
have items on display and for sale.
Admission for reenactors is free and $5.00 Adults and $2.00 for kids 4-18.
The Legion is registered as a separate unit this year.
We will participate with Legion XX for the field maneuvers and will
demonstrate the Legion XXIV's ballista following the field tacticals.
Brian Mackey and the Commander may get down for the Friday session
to set-up Master Baro's tent and prepare the camp.
Dinner at Marietta on Saturday Night is on the Commander.
Six dinner tickets have been ordered; but I can order more if needed.
I have heard from some of you; but if you plan to be there please advise
me so I and Marietta will know just how many to expect.

Directions to Marietta Mansion: 5626 Bell Station Rd., Glenn Dale, MD 20769.

301-464-5291. use www.mapquest.com using the above address for a map.
From I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450 East, go 4 miles,

turn left on Rt. 193, then left onto Bell Station Rd. and a 400 feet to left into
Marietta (or follow the signs to the parking area). Alternate approach may be
made from the Baltimore Washington Parkway southbound. Exit for "Rt.193",
just prior to I-495 Beltway exit. Make two left turns onto Rt.193 east.
Go five miles, past fire station on left, to Bell Station Road.
Right turn to Marietta entrance.

ROMAN DAYS NORTHEAST May 15, 2004 - Woodstock Fairgrounds, Equestrian Center - Woodstock, CT 10 am to 4 pm Contact: lawrensnest@...
This Event, only one short month away, is sponsored by La Wren's Nest, Legio VIIII Triumphalis and Legio III Cyrenaica.
It will be held at an equestrian park that will have ample room for our military maneuvers and encampment.
Fred Wojick (Flavius Octavius Servius) and his brother Greg (Gallus Octavius Oppius), have put together an Onager catapult. They claim a range of 300 feet using softballs. Come see it in action!!! Some barbarians have been captured for us to use as fodder for our gladius and pila practice. The Ludus Magnus Gladiators are also expected to be there. Games and other activities for young and old will be going on throughout the day. A Roman Market and Merchant's Row will be set-up. This will be the first major event for the Legion in 2004. The Legion XXIV "Castra" (headquarters) on Friday and Saturday, will be the Kings Inn, at Exit 96 of I-395, in Putnum, CT, 10 miles from the Woodstock Event. This is the closest hotel to the Event and they have a restaurant on premises. Contact the Kings Inn at 800-541-7304 and ask for the preferential room rate for Romans of $62.72 single and $69.44 double with taxes and fees included.
Contact La Wren's Nest at the above e-mail or the event website http://www.lawrensbasement.com/RomanDaysNE.html for more information, directions, other hotels, etc.
Units and individuals are asked to contact Julie at LaWrens to advise her of your space requirements and the number of tents you are bringing. Legion XXIV will have a 50 x 50 foot space allocation which should suffice for Master Baro's new marquee tent, our displays and other needs. Arrive after 2PM on Friday for set-up. A dinner on Saturday night is planned for event participants.

ROMAN DAYS NORTHEAST FEAST - Julie and Lawrence Brooks (LaWrens Nest)
are planning to have a Roman feast at 5 pm after the close of the event.
It will be a nice way for re-enactors, staff and volunteers to end the day and give everyone a chance to socialize.
The feast will be a combination of Roman and Egyptian dishes. The price is $20.00 for adults, $12 for children under thirteen.
They need to have a head count by April 20th, so the food can be purchased.
If you want to come to the feast, please send a check made payable to "Mar-Vista" at 1227 South River Road, Marshfield, MA 02050. Attach a note stating that you are paying for the feast and a list of names. Also, please note if you have any food allergies.
The feast menu will consist of the following: (note: we are still checking on spelling, please excuse any errors in Latin spelling until we get the final correct spellings. Or you can send us a correct spelling).
Appetizers
beta caseus patella - platters with fresh sliced fruits and melon served around a yogurt dip, with feta cheese and gouda chunks.
Cucumber and Yogur salad - sliced cucumbers in a yogurt sauce, Rowies - Scottish rolls, made similarly to croissants
First Course
Shourbet Al Khodar served with white rice - a combination of beef, vegetable and spices, slow-stewed and served over the rice
Fabiciae Verdis et Baeana - green berans and soy beans with coriander, cumin and leeks.
Second course
Chicken kabobs - marinated white and dark meat chicken, slow-roasted with period herbs and spices
Tagen Roze- rice with onions herbs, chicken broth Rolls - whole wheat rolls
Dessert
Dulca Domestica - fresh dates, stuffed with fruits and other period choices, with a honey dip Libum - honey soaked pastry, these are cheese and flour, baked then oaked in honey
Libum absque caseus - same as above, but without the cheese.
Period beverages will include Sakajabin, lemon water and fruit juice.


ONAGER CATAPULT JOINS LEGION'S ARTILLERY POOL
The Legion now has a second piece of artillery - OOUU - RAAAA !!!
Fred Wojick (Flavius Octavius Servius) and his brother Greg (Gallus Octavius Oppius),
who just signed-on with the Legion last October, have put together an Onager catapult.
They claim a range of 300 feet using softballs! It is a little more than 4' x 6' and stands
5' tall. it took them 7 months to complete. They made everything as authentic as possible.
It has wheels and promises to outshine the Commanders wimpy? ballista, which can
only lob plastic tube ammo 150 feet. This mighty machine was to be at MTT; but Fred
was called to additional police duty for a trial. Too Bad! Now we will have to wait until
Roman Days Northeast to witness this new "Engine of Terror".


GLADIATOR GAME SITE
From the Newsletter of the Roma Vita Group in Tacoma, WA, a super neat site.
If you ever wanted to be a gladiator, here is a free web game to play online.
Super easy and fun. http://www.romanarenalite.com/

VICESIMA QUARTA ???
For those who may have wondered what "Vicesima Quarta", the title of our Newsletter means,
it is Latin for the ordinal number "24th". Vicesima for Twenty and Quarta for Fourth.
Of course, all you Latin majors knew that; but now the rest of you know as well.

UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS
*** April 17-18 "Marching Through Time", Marietta Mansion, Rts 193. N of Rt 450, Glendale, MD


*** June 12-13 "Roman Days", Marietta Mansion, Glendale, MD

*** June 19-20 "Muster on the Maumee" Time Line Event, Fort Meigs, Perrysburg, OH
*** August 7 - 8 Multi-Period Time Line Event, Fort Malden, Amherstburg Ontario, opposite Detroit.

*** August 11-12-13-14 Pennsic War XXXIII, The Great Battle between the Kingdoms of the East and the Middle; Rts I-79 & US-422, New Castle, PA. Legion XXIV will be displaying the presence of Ancient Rome.

*** Sept 18-19 -- Roman Market Days, Wells Harbor Park, ME

*** October 15-16-17 Movie Trailer Shoot and Encampment at Parthenon in Nashville, TN with multiple Legion Units
and 100+ Roman Reenactors gbarbosa@...

Be sure to check the website from time to time. It is updated at least once a month and generally more than once.
www.legionxxiv.org New material includes details on early Roman Calendars and months, updates to the Glossary, new gladiator helmets on the Ludus Magnus page, more details about the Coliseum and other updates throughout the website. Check in often.

Thanking you for your continued support of Legion XXIV, I remain;

Vires et Honos - Strength and Honor

Gallio / George




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Gaius Hadrianus et Omnes

You raise some very pertinent points in your e-mail. With this issue receiving
attention on the mailing list of late, I could not help also thinking of the issue.
While I am also still somewhat new to NR (5 months) I have also thought of
possible ideas worth looking at. I think it is good to air different ideas, keeping
in mind though that the current system was arrived at through careful contemplation
and discussion by various devoted citizens in the years after Nova Roma's founding.
None of this is thus meant as criticism as such.

Commenting on what others have mentioned, I can say that I also was unaware
of there being taxes when I joined, and only realized that there were when I read
the Tax Edictum on the ML. Now I do think that the taxes are a very good idea.
As Gaius Minucius Hadrianus pointed out, if we want to achieve our goals, we are
going to need a LOT of money. I'm currently recruiting new citizens in South Africa
with the hopes of establishing a South African province, somethign which I've talked
about on this list before. I've just printed out some of the tri-fold pamphlets which can
be downloaded from the 'Downloads' section of the ML. Something which bothered
me was the fact that on the brochure it is printed in BOLD letters that : Citizenship
in Nova Roma is Free. It's not exactly free, is it? And neither should it be.

I can't help feeling that in the end we are stuck between two different paradigms. On
the one hand we want to get as many people into NR as possible, and having 'free'
citizenship and low taxes is a good way of doing that. We want to appeal to anyone who
likes Ancient Rome, its values and perhaps its religion... in short, sort of a society
dedicated to Ancient Roman values and culture. Which is admirable and can definitely
serve a purpose. On the other hand, we have the situation where we want to be a SOVEREIGN
REPUBLIC. That's the difficulty, and that can clash with the more 'social' aspects mentioned
above. Getting the money and resources and time needed to build a country up from scratch
is going to take more money and commitment than one would give to simply a recreational
society. The Sierra Club and the NRA also charge membership dues and have members with
limited involvement... but they're not trying to create sovereign state with a restored public religion.

I can honestly say that I cannot offer an easy solution to this problem (as I perceive it to be,
in any case). Any solution has its pitfalls, much as the current taxation and citizenship system
has its problems and shortcomings. Do we draw a clearer distinction between assidui and capite
censi? Having the Republic side of NR, with citizens, and then the 'societal' part, with 'members'?
I know that many people are strongly opposed to this. But it does have its benefits. We can ask
members less membership money, perhaps nothing, and still have a resource of people to draw on
and who draw on other members and citizens for support and information. Much as we are doing now.
Citizens on the other hand would be those who are willing to give a greater financial contribution
towards the goal of creating a physical Republic, preferably an island, a proper for-real country. We
cannot expect people simply in NR for other reasons, such as academic interest or a sense of
community only, with no desire to take part in our Micronation endeavours, to be forced to give
so much of their time and money. But why should we not expect it from those who are really
serious about our sovereignty aims? About our desire to fully restore the state religion, which would
require a sovereign(or at least semi-independent) piece of land with public buildings, etc.? I think
we have to demand more from them, i.e., more from ourselves. I know that not everyone is in the
position to give huge sums of money. I myself am a student with a very limited budget. But those
unable to give financially can still help in other ways, by giving time, etc. Nobody would of course be
barred from being just a member until such time as they can fully assume the responsibilites of
citizenship.

I really want to see us achieve many of our goals before the next century. And, it really is possible.
This is just a very non-precise example, but let's say we can get 1000 people to contribute $160
annually. That would give us $160 000 a year. In 5 years we will have saved $800 000.
I just read an ad for an island off the coast of Greece, price $ 800 000. 32 acres. Now $160 might
sound like a lot, but I think not too many people, who have the means, will not be willing to pay
that knowing that it is going to a concrete project, knowing that they are buying an island. Knowing
that that money will actually help actualise our goals. I think they'll be willing. I certainly would be.
If we were to set up a real project, with a goal amount in mind, with a goal island in mind, we can
begin to count the money coming in, letting people see how far we are, instead of them feeling
that they're just giving money and seeing no results. We can have one of those countdown thingies
they use on telethons :) That look like a thermometer :) This might sound crazy, but I think it can work.
Our goals seem so far in one respect, but in another they are so close at hand and so very possible!
Some of you may be familiar with Holy Island off the coast of Scotland. It was bought by a Buddhist
organisation based in Britian, and they have raised millions of dollars in buying it and developing it,
building a retreat centre and international religious conference centre. This just shows that a group
of truly committed people can achieve something akin to what we want to do!

Perhaps we can do this without even changing anything regarding citizenship or taxation. Instead
let's just set something like this up and begin putting the money in. Seeing the amount grow. Seeing
our goals become more real before our eyes. Who, knowing that in 10 years they can walk into a Temple
of Victory on the island of Nova Roma, will not be more than willing to pay?


Valete,

Lucius Cornelius Cicero



Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix wrote:

*Salvete,
*
*Regarding the tax issue:
*
*Nova Roma isn't going to achieve the long term goals outlined in our
*constitution, mission statement and "Declaration of the New Rome" in
*any of our life times with out *a lot* of money, money which is not
*going just to drop out of the sky into our treasury. Nova Roma
*collected around $2800 in taxes last year, and I suspect 2004 will see
*roughly similar numbers (higher one hopes...). Considering our current
*theoretical population of 2228, that is a pretty poor showing, and at
*this rate I'm afraid I'll be paying the ferryman before I see Nova
*Roma's first public building.
*
*Under the circumstances, I can't help but worry that the majority of
*Nova Romans do not take Nova Roma and it's mission all that seriously.
*That they simply regard it as an interesting diversion or amusement, an
*online social outlet or perhaps even some sort of role-playing game.
*Perhaps it's our own fault for not educating new citizens on what Nova
*Roma is really about, what our goals are, and how seriously we believe
*in them. I find it troubling that we have citizens who didn't even know
*we *had* taxes when they applied for citizenship, or that we are
*primarily a religious organization, or that we are serious about the
*sovereignty issue.

*I doubt we are going to change the way we collect taxes or the amount
*collected any time soon, but perhaps we can try and do a better job
*educating new citizens on their civic responsibility, Nova Roma's
*mission, and *why* it is so important that they pay their $12 once a year.
*
*Valete,
*
*C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
*
*(Hopefully I'm not being too incoherent, as I just dragged myself out of
*bed!)





Lucius Cornelius Cicero

INTERPRETER(Afrikaans)
SCRIBA GENII DOCTRINAE PHILOSOPHIAE (Academia Thules)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes

Agrippina Modia Aurelia wrote:

> Considering that I
> lost nearly half of my region's population with one scan of the gens
> list, I wonder how many other regions / provinces might see their
> population decline considerably if they did the same.

I can offer a similar experience. A few months ago I embarked on an
effort to get the Senate to create a South African province. I looked
through the Album Civium and found about 6 people listed under 'ZA',
which is the prefix for South Africa. I e-mailed all of them, making
use of the citizen mailing system, and told them of my efforts and asked
for their support in the form of siging a petition to the Senate in due
course. That was quite a few months ago, and I have not received one
e-mail in reply, not even after resending them twice, even three times
in some cases. All of those citizens are listed as Capite Censi, by the way.
It would seem that these citizens are MIA... some have joined long ago,
others more recently.

On a brighter note, I did get into contact with a citizen from here who joined
this year, and he has been very enthusiastic about the creation of a S.A. province.
I have also been busy recruiting new citizens, and the first of these recruited
became a citizen during March! She might be my fianceé, but if I can't convince
those close to me, how will I convince strangers? :) I am happy to say that she is listed
as Assidui. When I go to Classics workshops at University later this month,
I'm going to take some NR pamphlets with me, and with any luck we'll soon have
more new citizens.

I have digressed somewhat from the original topic, but I just wanted to let
everyone know how my efforts were coming along. On a side note, I have translated
the Main Page into Afrikaans, and sent it to the Curator. It hasn't been uploaded
yet though, understandably seeing as the Curator has just resigned. But as soon
as it is uploaded, it will serve as a valuable tool in recruiting more cives.

Valete,


Lucius Cornelius Cicero

INTERPRETER(Afrikaans)
SCRIBA GENII DOCTRINAE PHILOSOPHIAE (Academia Thules)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus wrote (among other things snipped
for brevity):

> Let's not mentionned the socii who, last time I checked, are not
> citizens. But they have in the past been accepted and have taken

much

> censorial time in being set up as active citizens and then as socii
> on the last census : these are the lost citizens I am refering to.
> As for the flood of "bogus applications", I would respectfully

refer

> you to the work the censorial office is facing at present : We are
> investing everyday new applications from prospective citizens who

do

> not take the time to read our web site and do not follow the advice
> on name practices set up (sometime awkwarldy I must admit) on the
> main web site. Some applications do not have proper address

details,

> some are duplicates. Of all these "problem" applications that are
> investigated, less than half are resolved when the propspective
> citizens take time to get in touch with us. The rest just

disappear"

> and clutter our data base.

I can sympathize with the extra work the censors and their staff have
to do, particularly because of people who aren't really serious about
their membership or give incomplete or inaccurate data. I'm
considering accepting an invitation to join the censorial staff and I
will probably become quite frustrated as well. However, the "advice on
name practices set up" in my opinion is not very clear, especially
when it comes to female names. I understand that issue is being worked
on as we speak, so I won't belabor that. In the meantime, I hope the
censors & staff will have patience and realize that mistakes are
almost inevitable for people not used to Roman naming practices, even
if they have read what is currently on the website. I wonder if it
would be possible, while awaiting a major revision, to state clearly
on the name webpage that, according to current practice, women *must*
choose a feminized praenomen from the male praenomen list, and, for
that matter, men must choose a praenomen from the male preanomen list.
I don't know what other name problems arise, but I know that one from
personal experience, as you know, Armoricus! :-)

> The commitment of the newest citizens that have written on the main
> list recently is a testimony to the hard work of Censores M.

Octavius

> Germanicus and C. Fabius Quintilianus in welcoming and guiding

truly

> interested people. But most of all it illustrates my point : If

taxes

> were made mandatory, and advertised clearly as such on the
> application form, we would greatly reduce the number of "bogus"
> applications while making sure that only genuinely commited and
> interested citizens take the time to contact us.

I agree with this wholeheartedly! People are less likely to join an
organization as just a lark or a bit of fun if they know they're going
to have to shell out some cold hard cash. I did not know when I joined
that there would be taxes, but I find the current amount more than
reasonable and paid my taxes the day after I was accepted. If someone
is serious about Nova Roma, I don't think he/she will let the payment
of 1/3000 of the Gross Domestic Product of their country deter him/her
from joining.

> I leave it to our magistrates to make exceptions to the mandatory

tax

> rule should one of the prospective citizens not be able to afford

it

> but the main principle behind it remains. As I said earlier, I have
> become a convert to the necessity of taxes : I will now officially
> support any proposal that moves towards this goal for the reasons

set

> up above.

As will I.

I also want to take this opportunity to greet everyone for the first
time and say how happy I am to be a citizen!

Valete,

Marcella

> I find this approach intriguing. The only
> suggestion that I would make is that the matter be
> referred not to the Praetors, but rather to the
> Comitia Curiata, which is the entity that seems to be
> most responsible for matters dealing with recognition
> of families under the Nova Roman Constitution.
>

I acually thought it might be easier for the Praetors to review the
case first rather than try to refer it to Comita Curiata first. I
have read the earlier accounts of dismal voter turn out which
coupled with having to organize the actual vote made the Praetor
seem a preferred first option.

I agree that the Comitia Curiata should be the final mechanism if
the pater/mater familias (or indeed the whole gens) should need to
be placed under guardianship.

The "legal" nature of a guardianship action also seemed the natural
province of a Praetor, with confirmation from the people as the
fianl stamp on the matter (or not if they reject it). Also the
Praetor could quickly dismiss any spurious actions.

Vale
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem IV Idus Aprilis and the Feria Megalesiae; the day
is nefastus. The Feria Megalesiae continued.

Tomorrow is ante diem III Idus Aprilis; the day is nefastus.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

Salve Romans

Just a reminder that we have the Centum group that is looking for people to donate $100.00 to Nova Roma.

We have the first five members who have pledged but need 5 more before we post the names on the main list.
After each group of ten we will publish the list on the ML.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete, All. Merlinia Ambrosia here, sending Greetings.

As Materfamilias of Gens Ambrosia, I'd like to make some
observations. First, I get an 'SPQR' message that so & so wishes to join
my gens. Previously, P/M weren't able to use the Email of the new
person, only if they sent first. Now, as soon as I have time to respond
(1-5 days) I welcome the person, and ask them about themselves, so as to
decide if they'd fit. Some reply, some do not. The ones who do, either
fit or don't. If they don't, I try to point them to a gens that might.
If they do, I ask if they can handle a few things (Rules, well,
guidelines, really),Join the NR & Ambrosii lists, to Answer Emails
promptly,& Pay the NR taxes. If they agree to that, they're in.
If anyone is having a problem with payment, we will deal with it
internally, but they have to let me know.
We have our compliment of gensmembers who do not answer me, do not
pay taxes, and seem to have dropped out,and I am trying to decide how to
handle that problem.
As to Absentees, Ambrosia was begun by one Ambrosius Neptunius; I
couldn't find him at the address listed, but found he was in the
southeast quarter of the US. After peppering any lists I could find,
asking if anyone knew him, the censors took pity, and instead of
closing the Gens, they gave it to me.
So, there you go, a look at these questions from the other side.
Valete!
-Merlinia, Proud to be Materfamilias of Gens Ambrosia.

Salve Marcella,

I am really, really pleased that you take the current matter to heart . You
are, among many other new citizens approved over the last two months, a prime
example of the benefits Nova Roma can gain by being really serious with
prospective citizens at the application stage. Having you and others contributing on
the main list has made it all worthwhile. Thank you ;-)

Optime vale

C Moravius Laureatus



In a message dated 10/04/04 04:37:26 GMT Daylight Time, marcella@...
writes:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus wrote (among other things snipped
> for brevity):
>
> >Let's not mentionned the socii who, last time I checked, are not
> >citizens. But they have in the past been accepted and have taken
> much
> >censorial time in being set up as active citizens and then as socii
> >on the last census : these are the lost citizens I am refering to.
> >As for the flood of "bogus applications", I would respectfully
> refer
> >you to the work the censorial office is facing at present : We are
> >investing everyday new applications from prospective citizens who
> do
> >not take the time to read our web site and do not follow the advice
> >on name practices set up (sometime awkwarldy I must admit) on the
> >main web site. Some applications do not have proper address
> details,
> >some are duplicates. Of all these "problem" applications that are
> >investigated, less than half are resolved when the propspective
> >citizens take time to get in touch with us. The rest just
> disappear"
> >and clutter our data base.
>
> I can sympathize with the extra work the censors and their staff have
> to do, particularly because of people who aren't really serious about
> their membership or give incomplete or inaccurate data. I'm
> considering accepting an invitation to join the censorial staff and I
> will probably become quite frustrated as well. However, the "advice on
> name practices set up" in my opinion is not very clear, especially
> when it comes to female names. I understand that issue is being worked
> on as we speak, so I won't belabor that. In the meantime, I hope the
> censors &staff will have patience and realize that mistakes are
> almost inevitable for people not used to Roman naming practices, even
> if they have read what is currently on the website. I wonder if it
> would be possible, while awaiting a major revision, to state clearly
> on the name webpage that, according to current practice, women *must*
> choose a feminized praenomen from the male praenomen list, and, for
> that matter, men must choose a praenomen from the male preanomen list.
> I don't know what other name problems arise, but I know that one from
> personal experience, as you know, Armoricus! :-)
>
> >The commitment of the newest citizens that have written on the main
> >list recently is a testimony to the hard work of Censores M.
> Octavius
> >Germanicus and C. Fabius Quintilianus in welcoming and guiding
> truly
> >interested people. But most of all it illustrates my point : If
> taxes
> >were made mandatory, and advertised clearly as such on the
> >application form, we would greatly reduce the number of "bogus"
> >applications while making sure that only genuinely commited and
> >interested citizens take the time to contact us.
> I agree with this wholeheartedly! People are less likely to join an
> organization as just a lark or a bit of fun if they know they're going
> to have to shell out some cold hard cash. I did not know when I joined
> that there would be taxes, but I find the current amount more than
> reasonable and paid my taxes the day after I was accepted. If someone
> is serious about Nova Roma, I don't think he/she will let the payment
> of 1/3000 of the Gross Domestic Product of their country deter him/her
> from joining.
>
> >I leave it to our magistrates to make exceptions to the mandatory
> tax
> >rule should one of the prospective citizens not be able to afford
> it
> >but the main principle behind it remains. As I said earlier, I have
> >become a convert to the necessity of taxes : I will now officially
> >support any proposal that moves towards this goal for the reasons
> set
> >up above.
> As will I.
>
> I also want to take this opportunity to greet everyone for the first
> time and say how happy I am to be a citizen!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcella
>

C Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Candidate for Quaestor
www.members.aol.com/cornmoraviusl/welcome/index


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]