C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.

Salve amice,

>Salve, oh Iulius Caesar,
>
>This Tribune thanks a lot your answer.
>
>"Without money, Nova Roma fails. Without an "enormous" amount of
>money Nova Roma will never truly prosper and grow."
>
>Why?
>Why really?
>Do want to build a new Capitolium?
>
>

Yes. We do want to build a new Capitolium. And for that matter a Forum,
Cuira, Domus Publicius, and not to mention a few Temples while we are at it.

>Or hire ten legions
>Remember the ´money´ happened only on the middle times of the Ancient
>Res Publica. Lack of money has not prevented virtues to grow, has not
>prevented the pietas of Father Romulus and Numa. Lack of money has
>never been a barrier to the Horacius, to Publicola, to Quincius, to
>Fabius, to Torquatus.
>
>NR SITE IS WRITTEN: "Dedicated to the restoration of Classical Roman
>religion, culture, and virtues "
>
>Roman religio do not need money. A lararium can very cheaply be built
>in each house. Prayers costs nothing. Pietas as well. We don´t want
>to make ´bloodly´ sacrifices, so no need of expensive white oxes or
>gold corned lambs. Like Seneca said ´the gods are poor and have
>nothing´ or when the ancient worshipped mud/clay gods with much
>pietas than a solid gold statue of the Empire. Are we beliving really
>the roman religio or only playing role play games and perhaps
>building a classic temple just to enhance the play?
>
>
>

The personal, family religion does not really require money (at least
not public money, but the private costs of wine, incense, a toga, etc.
can start to add up...), the State Religion however, does require money.
Are you implying that a desire to build a Temple to Vesta so that the
hearth fire of Nova Roma can be lit and tended stems from a desire to
role play? The ancient Romans spent *enormous* amounts of money building
temples, making sacrifices, dedicating altars, and holding games for
*religious* purposes. Yes the truly archaic Romans had simple temples
and simple offerings, but given the primitive state of earliest Rome
that was all they could afford. This is hardly a reason to prevent Nova
Roma from aspiring to build the Gods great temples once more.

>Roman culture do not need money. Public libraries can provide us as
>many free books as we need. Alas there is more books we have to read
>than our life remaining... or worst, or patience to read. The
>internet has the majority of the ancient sources online, on latin or
>english. This list is source of many scholar information coming for
>the four cornes of the world. And free. Are we sharing really roman
>culture or dreaming with superficial roman disneyworlds?
>
>

As I understand it one of Nova Roma's goals is to promote Roman culture
worldwide, and one very good way to do this is to provide *monetary*
support for Classical education, archaeological research, to *buy* books
for libraries, provide grants and scholarships for students, etc. All
this costs money.

>Roman virtues cannot be bought. You can ask any philosopher or
>teologian. Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Lucrecius or Saint Thomas
>Aquinas, Saint Augustine, Saint Benedict - choose one according your
>taste. Where money can be applied here? Are we really desiring to
>make roman virtues on our life or just acting under a three ´-ius
>ended´ roman name?
>
>

True, we do not need money to live virtuous lives, but we do need money
to promote and educate the public about Roman virtues. The Catholic
Church can have all the piety and faith is wants, but with out money it
can not keep open its churches, or schools, or missions, or fund its
charities. Man can not live on virtue alone.

>SO, WE DO NOT NEED MUCH MONEY TO ACCOMPLISH NOVA ROMA GOALS.
>Alas, we are still very far away of them. But working.
>
>
>

I disagree. We do not need money to accomplish *all* of Nova Roma's
goals, but we do need money to accomplish many of the most important ones.

>"We cannot rebirth a civilization with our pocket change."
>
>We never ever want to rebirth a ´civilization´. The romans are over.
>They merged and turned onto ourselves nowadays. What Nova Roma wants
>is bringing back the best of their heritage.
>
>

To quote the Nova Roman Constitution:

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova
Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable,
as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture,
religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of
ancient Rome."

From the Nova Roma Homepage:

"*NOVA ROMA* is an organization dedicated to the study and restoration
of ancient Roman culture. From its legendary founding in 753 BCE to 330
CE, when it ceased to be the center of Imperial authority, Rome set the
standard and laid the foundation for our modern Western civilization.
Rome civilized the world, and we see the need for that divine mission to
begin again.

Founded 2,750 years after the Eternal City itself, NOVA ROMA seeks to
bring back those golden years."

Sounds like rebirth to me.

>Vale bene in pacem deorum,
>L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>

Bene vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

Salvete Quirites,

It's my intention to let Tribune Arminius Faustus handle this
discussion, since he invited it. However, I did want to address one item.

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus wrote:

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.

[...]

>>Do want to build a new Capitolium?
>>
>>
>
> Yes. We do want to build a new Capitolium.

Well, some of us do. Many others of us see the idea of having a 108
acre site as something for several generations hence. It's very hard to
speak for the State on such matters, since interpretations vary so much.

My personal feeling on the matter of building a physical site is that it
should happen *only* after funds have been raised for that purpose,
invested in a long-term growth investment account, and borne fruit. I
don't think we can possibly come up with that kind of money from our
small and voluntary annual tax. The annual tax was never intended to
pay for a land acquisition effort.

As I've said before this, what's truly needed is a dedicated fund into
which people can donate monies for long-term investment. Don't confuse
that with the funds needed to provide for the operation of the state and
the provinces each year.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Salvete, All! Merlinia Ambrosia here, with a Reminder

We will be having the Nova Caesaria Meeting at the home of the
Legata(me!) To begin at 11 am, discussions, etc., to follow, and
various Roman snacks, and dinner later in the evening.
Also, the trip to the Newark Museum, as time & interest permits.

I shall send directions to whomever emails me; remember to send your
Roman name. Please let me know that you're coming by Wednesday, April
21st. I will be planning the food, so, If you have food allergies, let
me know what they are.

So far, we have Consul Marinus, his Lady Gratida, and myself.
This is rather a poor showing, considering that we are in the most
populated area of NR.

Please come! Email me at merlinia@....

Valete!
-M.

Salve Merlina,

I, Gnaeus Scribonius Scriptor, will be there at the Consular party. If
there is anything you would like me to bring, please don't hesitate to ask.
Also, what is the attire? Casual Modern? Roman? I live down in Camden County.
Shouldn't be that far from you. Near Newark, right? Thank you for hosting this. I
really am thrilled about this and hope to meet my Legata, Consul and many
other cives of NR.

BENE.VALE.
MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
ET.DOMINVS.SODALITATIS.GEOGRAPHIAE.
NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.AVXILIORVM.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.
GN.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit.

Salve, Fauste.

I frankly don't much care about the issue of taxation at the moment. I
shall pay whatever rate the Senate in its wisdom chooses to set.
However, I must take considerable objection to one of your arguments
about NR not needing significant sums of money for the Religio Romana..

>Roman religio do not need money. A lararium can very cheaply be built
>in each house. Prayers costs nothing. Pietas as well. We don´t want
>to make ´bloodly´ sacrifices, so no need of expensive white oxes or
>gold corned lambs. Like Seneca said ´the gods are poor and have
>nothing´ or when the ancient worshipped mud/clay gods with much
>pietas than a solid gold statue of the Empire. Are we beliving really
>the roman religio or only playing role play games and perhaps
>building a classic temple just to enhance the play?
>

It is true that most of the caerimoniae of the Religio Privata are
relatively inexpensive (I spend perhaps $20 US per month on incense,
incense charcoal, wine, and cakes for my daily rituals). However, I
reject absolutely the assertion that the Religio Privata and Publica
should abandon the historically attested practice of blood sacrifice. I
have engaged in blood sacrifice in my Religio Privata and in the Religio
Publica as Flamen Quirinalis and have willingly borne the significant
costs of such sacrifices. If we are to truly reconstruct the Religio
Publica, the expenses associated with sacrifice _will_ have to to be
borne either by the state or by the private resources of its priests and
magistrates.

It is incompetent scholarship aimed at an unjustified accomodation of
certain modern sensibilities to argue on the basis of a single ambiguous
passage in Plutarch's vita of Numa -- and a passage which is
contradicted by reports of blood sacrifices by Numa in that same vita --
that blood sacrifice is unnecessary for the Religio Romana. And that
ignores the numerous documented errors and misinterpretations in
Plutarch's speculations about Roman history: recall that Plutarch makes
Numa a disciple of Pythagoras, but the traditional dating holds that
Numa was dead a century before Pythagoras was born.* Furthermore, the
speculations of a Stoic philosopher, Seneca, who was happily prepared to
countenance the impious parricides of Nero, about what is pleasing to
the Di Immortales are hardly binding evidence. It is supported by
innumerable examples that historical practitioners of the Religio Romana
devoted large sums of money to the building and maintenance of temples
for the worship of the Gods and the expense of the sacrifices
traditionally offered to the Di Immortales. I think the constant
evidence of a thousand years of Roman religious practice is more
reliable evidence than any philosophical speculation. To build temples
and make sacrifices is precisely the opposite of a role playing game: it
involves greater contribution of resources, financial and temporal, than
any reasonable person would make for a mere game. It is only
explainable in terms of piety. If we are blessed by the Di Immortales
to see the full reconstruction of the Religio Romana in our lifetimes,
there will be considerable expenses associated with its authentic
maintenance.

Until we are able to fully reconstruct the Religio Romana on the
property of Nova Roma, there will be necessary expenses of education for
those who wish to follow as accurately as possible the caerimoniae of
the Religio. The Collegium Pontificum is currently trying to develop a
series of electronic instructional media to show the proper posture,
gestures, texts, and pronunciation of the most basic caerimoniae of the
Religio. We hope eventually to be able to provide real-time, streaming
video of caerimoniae for the major feriae. All of this will take money
to develop and maintain.

Vale.

Scaurus

______________________
* - Even if we reject the traditional dating of Numa, making him a
contemporary of Pythagoras requires either a complete redating of the
archaeology of Rome in the regal period or postulation of unknown royal
predecessors of Numa. Note also that Livy firmly rejected the
contemporaneity of Numa and Pythagoras (i.18).

>
>

Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Iuli,

Gaius Iulius Scaurus wrote:

> However, I
> reject absolutely the assertion that the Religio Privata and Publica
> should abandon the historically attested practice of blood sacrifice.

On this point, I fear we must ever disagree my friend. I know that you
conducted such a sacrifice earlier this year, but I consider that your
own act made by your own choice. The day that the Collegium Pontificum
declares that such sacrifices are part of our official practices will be
the day I resign my citizenship from Nova Roma and take my family with
me. When I joined I was assured we had no such practices, and I will
not have such things done in my name.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Consul

F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

There is sufficient documentation to show that in the earliest history of the
Age of Kings and the beginning of the Republic, sacrifice to the Gods was of
spelt and grains of salt, along with wine. Early incense was likely to have
been laurel, myrtle, bay, and other herbs. I have never seen fit to offer a
sacrifice of a living creature to the Gods but I recognize that it is acceptable
to do so. How a Nova Roman who follows the Religio chooses to make sacrifice
and offerings to the Gods is up to the individual.
This is another topic that has been discussed on the ML before and there is
more than enough information on the main site to show that both forms of
sacrifice are appropriate. The origin of the Religio was based with farmers and
farmers are practical people who would not waste a perfectly good sheep, goat, or
ox unless they felt is was absolutely necessary to the Gods. Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In reply to: C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

Salve,

I agree that those who seek a personal gain from NR have "hold of
the wrong end of the stick". However there are numerous people who
would and will make good citizens if they understand clearly what
the ultimate objective is, which I too I might add take so seriously
that I am prepared to devote every ounce of energy I have to it. It
is a noble and worthy cause. maybe they should understand before
joining, but clearly many don't.

Currently many people end up applying for citixenship without that
clear sense of focus, and I firmly believe that the role of all of
us who take that objective as seriously as it is clear you do, and I
know I do, should be to educate them. I just don't think that at
this stage of NR's development requiring money first without at
least a determined effort to explain why all citizens should pay the
tax on a one-to-one basis is the approach most likely to convince
them. In short we have to take the raw material that flows into our
doors and mould it into a citizen.

Granting citizenship here no more makes someone a "citizen" in that
holistic sense than in former times taking a barbarian from the
Rhine frontier, granting him citizenship, dressing him in a toga and
plunking him in the Senate and expecting him to be a fully
committed, involved, dedicating and functioning Roman. Without a
mentor and a great deal of effort he would remain what he was, a
barbarian in a toga.

So when I talk about people realizing the benefits, they were the
more high minded benefits that cannot be banked or spent -
intellectual, religious etc. My point about medicare etc. was to
remind citizens that a lot of newcomers don't immediately understand
what they are paying for and why they should pay. You do. I do. They
may not. So before we toss them back into the "barabrian" lands they
came from I just feel that someone should take each one of them to
one side for some individual mentoring. Ideally that should be the
Pater/Materfamilais or someone they appoint within their gens.
Someone - anyone. As for those of us who are already committed
inwardly to the ideal ever before finding NR, no convincing should
be necessary.

Vale

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
his fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

My grasp of economics is extremely tenuous, which is
probably why I'm very confused by your proposal. I can
understand it well enough to see that it involves
setting tax rates by first deciding how much is needed
and then dividing it up among the various
contributors. That clearly makes much better sense
than the other way round, so I'm in favour so far. But
then I get confused.

At first, I saw that you said:

> ... Each Province is
> asked to send in a lump sum based on the number of
> citizens it has, so that the more citizens a
> Province has, the lower the taxes are per capita,
> even though the total
> is greater.

... and I thought you were suggesting that provinces
with more citizens be required to pay larger sums of
money than provinces with fewer citizens,
proportionally; so a province which contained 20% of
the total population of Nova Roma would contribute 20%
of the budget. But this doesn't fit with the numbers
you gave in your example:

> E.g.: A total of US$100 is the budget. Britain has
> 15 members, Brazil has 2. Britain's per capita tax
> would be US$6.50, Brazil's would be US$2.00.

In that example Britain makes up 88% of the population
but contributes 97.5% of the budget: so clearly my
first idea about what you meant was wrong.

Then I noticed that you said:

> 2. It spurs the Provinces to get new citizens.
> Every time it gets new citizens, even the smaller
> Provinces reduce the per capita required.

... so I thought perhaps you meant that each province
would have to pay the same amount, so that a province
with more citizens would have a lower tax rate per
person. But again that doesn't fit with your example,
because it shows Britain contributing $97.50 and
Brazil contributing $4.

Is it some combination of these two things, or some
entirely different idea? Once you've decided the total
budget, how do you decide how much each province contributes?





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A. Apollonius Cordus to A. Ambrosius Celetrus, and to
all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

> family (fàm´e-lê, fàm´lê) noun
> plural families
> Abbr. fam.
> 1. a. A fundamental social group in society
> typically consisting of a
> man and woman and their offspring. b. Two or more
> people who share goals
> and values, have long-term commitments to one
> another, and reside
> usually in the same dwelling place.
> 2. All the members of a household under one roof.
> 3. A group of persons sharing common ancestry. See
> Usage Note at
> collective noun.
> 4. Lineage, especially distinguished lineage.

Thanks for those. The first definition is pretty
vague, and has no real Roman equivalent. Number 2
equates fairly closely to the familia, and number 3 to
the domus. I'm not sure quite how numbers 4 and 3
differ, but I'm guessing that number 4 is intended to
denote a broader set of relationships than 3, so it
might equate to the gens.

I'm afraid that wasn't a terribly laughter-filled
answer, but I suspect the number of people who find my
comments on this subject entertaining is smaller than
the number of those who wish I would be quiet; so
after one more message to Senator Maximus I shall go
quiet about it for now.





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Salvete,

The issue of money within Nova Roma will probably be debated forever; each of
us Citizens has different ideas of what should be done with and about it. I
personally feel it is better to have an advantageous and useful community asset
than not have it, so I am pleased to see efforts to build some physical world
resources for NR.

One thing I can happily say is that our State has proven to be a frugal one.
(How many nations can boast that?) Our expenditures have always been kept to a
bare minimum, and the few things we do spend on tend to be heavily subsidized
by private donation and other efforts. In short, our treasury has continued
to grow rather than be spent like water, giving us steadily increasing
real-world potential. The Nova Roma Senate is a tightfisted group - one of the things
I like best about it...

So what *is* money good for in Nova Roma? It can help build real-world
infrastructure and presence for our community. It can't buy Romanitas or Pietas, but
can provide some of the tools and situations where such ideals can be
nurtured and shared.

The Religio has been raised as an example regarding money. It is very true
that not much money is needed for an individual to worship at a home Lararium.
This is a good thing, for it ensures that the Religio has an easily maintained
and privately based foundation. But what of the state cult? Shall we say that
we will *never* build public shrines? That ades and temples will never again
be raised by those choosing Roman culture? That statues of the Gods will never
be produced, both for the home Larariums and for places of public honor? That
we will never need assets to put on real-world public festivals? I myself hope
that in time all these things will be done.

Money isn't a goal in itself. It is simply a resource that can help bring
goals to reality. It has always seemed that most of us here want our community to
be as 'real' as possible, and physical assets will be a part of that. Not
that this will end the debates of course!

Still, I'm encouraged to be arguing about too much of a resource than not
enough...

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A lineage does not necessarily include all members of a family. See it as a
"pedigree". In a pedigree you do not necessarily list brothers or sisters of
your ancestors.
Hope that helps.
Caius.

> A. Apollonius Cordus to A. Ambrosius Celetrus, and to
> all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.
>
> > family (fàm´e-lê, fàm´lê) noun
> > plural families
> > Abbr. fam.
> > 1. a. A fundamental social group in society
> > typically consisting of a
> > man and woman and their offspring. b. Two or more
> > people who share goals
> > and values, have long-term commitments to one
> > another, and reside
> > usually in the same dwelling place.
> > 2. All the members of a household under one roof.
> > 3. A group of persons sharing common ancestry. See
> > Usage Note at
> > collective noun.
> > 4. Lineage, especially distinguished lineage.
>
> Thanks for those. The first definition is pretty
> vague, and has no real Roman equivalent. Number 2
> equates fairly closely to the familia, and number 3 to
> the domus. I'm not sure quite how numbers 4 and 3
> differ, but I'm guessing that number 4 is intended to
> denote a broader set of relationships than 3, so it
> might equate to the gens.
>
> I'm afraid that wasn't a terribly laughter-filled
> answer, but I suspect the number of people who find my
> comments on this subject entertaining is smaller than
> the number of those who wish I would be quiet; so
> after one more message to Senator Maximus I shall go
> quiet about it for now.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


NEU : GMX Internet.FreeDSL
Ab sofort DSL-Tarif ohne Grundgebühr: http://www.gmx.net/info

Salvete!
I fully agree. But if that "real-world infrastructure" is situated in the
Texan desert, I'll rather vote against taxes in the future.
Valete, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus.

> Salvete,
>
> The issue of money within Nova Roma will probably be debated forever; each
> of
> us Citizens has different ideas of what should be done with and about it.
> I
> personally feel it is better to have an advantageous and useful community
> asset
> than not have it, so I am pleased to see efforts to build some physical
> world
> resources for NR.
>
> One thing I can happily say is that our State has proven to be a frugal
> one.
> (How many nations can boast that?) Our expenditures have always been kept
> to a
> bare minimum, and the few things we do spend on tend to be heavily
> subsidized
> by private donation and other efforts. In short, our treasury has
> continued
> to grow rather than be spent like water, giving us steadily increasing
> real-world potential. The Nova Roma Senate is a tightfisted group - one of
> the things
> I like best about it...
>
> So what *is* money good for in Nova Roma? It can help build real-world
> infrastructure and presence for our community. It can't buy Romanitas or
> Pietas, but
> can provide some of the tools and situations where such ideals can be
> nurtured and shared.
>
> The Religio has been raised as an example regarding money. It is very true
> that not much money is needed for an individual to worship at a home
> Lararium.
> This is a good thing, for it ensures that the Religio has an easily
> maintained
> and privately based foundation. But what of the state cult? Shall we say
> that
> we will *never* build public shrines? That ades and temples will never
> again
> be raised by those choosing Roman culture? That statues of the Gods will
> never
> be produced, both for the home Larariums and for places of public honor?
> That
> we will never need assets to put on real-world public festivals? I myself
> hope
> that in time all these things will be done.
>
> Money isn't a goal in itself. It is simply a resource that can help bring
> goals to reality. It has always seemed that most of us here want our
> community to
> be as 'real' as possible, and physical assets will be a part of that. Not
> that this will end the debates of course!
>
> Still, I'm encouraged to be arguing about too much of a resource than not
> enough...
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Senator, Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


NEU : GMX Internet.FreeDSL
Ab sofort DSL-Tarif ohne Grundgebühr: http://www.gmx.net/info

A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Consular Q.
Fabius Maximus, and to all his fellow-citizens and all
peregrines, greetings.

> > 1. 'Well are you all friends? And you are trusted,
> > right? Sounds like a "family" to me.'
> >
> > 2. 'Nova Roman gentes are not families.'
> >
> > Answer: the first one is a metaphor; the second is
> > the literal truth.
> >
> > Now, do you see where you went wrong?
>
> No, in my opinion both are families. So I'm not
> wrong. You chose to
> interpret the data
> you wish. As do I.

"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to
mean - neither more nor less."
(Humpty Dumpty, in 'Through the Looking-Glass' by
Lewis Carroll)

"If names be not correct, language is not in
accordance with the truth of things. If language be
not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs
cannot be carried on to success."
(Confucius, in the Analects, XIII.3)

You and Humpty-Dumpty may twist the word 'family' in
whatever way you please, Senator; I shall follow
Confucius and use words to mean what they mean.

Gentes are not families. If that statement troubles
you, use your word-altering powers to make 'families'
mean 'thimbles'.





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G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit.

Salve, Marine mi amice.

>Gaius Iulius Scaurus wrote:
>
>
>>However, I
>>reject absolutely the assertion that the Religio Privata and Publica
>>should abandon the historically attested practice of blood sacrifice.
>>
>>
>
>On this point, I fear we must ever disagree my friend. I know that you
>conducted such a sacrifice earlier this year, but I consider that your
>own act made by your own choice. The day that the Collegium Pontificum
>declares that such sacrifices are part of our official practices will be
>the day I resign my citizenship from Nova Roma and take my family with
>me. When I joined I was assured we had no such practices, and I will
>not have such things done in my name.
>

I am afraid I simply do not understand why you take this position. If
you are not a vegetarian, you eat the flesh of animals kept and slain
less humanely and with hugely less dignity than those slaughtered in
accordance with the ritual of the Religio Romana. Recall that in
sacrifices made to deities other than the Di Inferni only the exta are
offered to the Gods; the edible portions of the remainder are cooked and
eaten by the participants in the sacrifice in the epulum. Why is it so
objectionable to slaughter an animal, offer its exta to a God or
Goddess, and then eat the edible remaining portions in a common meal
with the Gods? Why is it preferable for animals to be slaughtered
mechanically with no respect for their dignity, with no respect offered
to the Gods, and their exta cast away as trash or turned into animal
feed (and in some cases to have spread Mad Cow Disease)? Are the Jews
barbarous because they slaughter animals in accordance with the laws of
kashrut? Ritual slaughter by the laws of kashrut is not so dissimilar
to slaughter by the rules of the Religio Romana.

The sacrifice I offered in supplicatio to Concordia was an official act
of the Religio Publica. It does not require a decretum of the Collegium
Pontificum for a Flamen to exercise his sacerdotal powers in accordance
with the mos maiorum on behalf of the res publica. It was not an act of
my Religio Privata, since I would not have published a report of it to
the main and Religio Lists and signed it as Flamen Quirinalis if it were
not an act of the Religio Publica undertaken in accordance with the
right of my Flaminate.

I confess I find it disturbing that one of the seniormost magistrates of
the republic should suggest that conscientiously following the mos
maiorum in the reconstruction of the Religio Romana is a reason to
abandon citizenship. Reconstruction of the Religio Romana is not a
matter like choosing from a restaurant menu: one from column A, two from
column B, none from Column C. When we know what the religious practice
of the Roman republic was from ample primary sources and reject it, we
are no longer practicing the Religio Romana; we are making up something
entirely new based on nothing more than our own preference. It is
certainly true that elements of the Religio Romana changed over time,
but such changes were in response to prodigies made clear by the Di
Immortales. What prodigies justify the abandonment of sacrifice? There
is a prodigy which towers over all others in the history of Rome: within
decades of the prohibition of sacrifice by the Christian atheism which
denied all the Gods as phantoms and demons the Roman empire was in
ruins, despoiled by barbarians. An attitude which finds slaughtering
animals for food without so much as an acknowledgement that the Gods
exist acceptable, but finds the ritual sacrifice of animals for a common
meal with the Di Immortales an abomination is exactly what those who
sought to extirpate the Religio Romana desired. Please, I beseech you,
rethink your condemnation of the principal way in which Romans
communally feasted with the Gods.

Vale.

Scaurus


Vale.

Scaurus

>
>

Ex-Officio Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Galerius Paulinus Quiritibus SPD

The Tribunes of the Plebis have declared that the Plebeian Aedileship that Callidius Gracchus was elected to ,
to be vacant because of a now four month absence and no evidence that he ever took the required oath of office and we issue a call for candidates for the this office.

The Nova Roma Constitution states that the:

1.. Aediles plebis (Plebeian Aedile). Two plebeian aediles shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting one year. They must both be of the plebeian order and shall have the following honors, powers, and obligations:
2.. To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to see to the conduct of public games and other festivals and gatherings, to ensure order at public religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public facilities that the State should acquire, and to administer the law (such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others);
3.. To pronounce intercessio against another plebeian aedile or magistrate of lesser authority;
4.. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other tasks, as he shall see fit.
In order to qualify to stand in this election as a candidate a person must be at least 21 years of age, a citizen of Nova Roma for at least six months, be classified by the Censors as Assidui (taxpayer) and be a member of the Plebeian order.

I will be calling the Comitia Plebis Tributa at the same time as our Consul Gn. Equitius Marinus has called the for the Comitia Populi Tributa 17 May 2757 auc. Please send me your declaration of candidacy to the main Nova Roma List any time between now and 10 May 2757 auc (2004 CE).

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebis

Done on this the 13h day of April , 2757 ab urbe condita
In the consulship of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus F. Galerio Aureliano Salutem dicit.

Salve, Aureliane.

>There is sufficient documentation to show that in the earliest history of the
>Age of Kings and the beginning of the Republic, sacrifice to the Gods was of
>spelt and grains of salt, along with wine. Early incense was likely to have
>been laurel, myrtle, bay, and other herbs. I have never seen fit to offer a
>sacrifice of a living creature to the Gods but I recognize that it is acceptable
>to do so. How a Nova Roman who follows the Religio chooses to make sacrifice
>and offerings to the Gods is up to the individual.
>This is another topic that has been discussed on the ML before and there is
>more than enough information on the main site to show that both forms of
>sacrifice are appropriate. The origin of the Religio was based with farmers and
>farmers are practical people who would not waste a perfectly good sheep, goat, or
>ox unless they felt is was absolutely necessary to the Gods.
>

The argument for requiring bloodless sacrifice in all cases rests on
both a reading of the text of Plutarch's life of Numa out of context and
acceptance of Plutarch's own philosophical agenda which posits a
preference for bloodless sacrifice on Numa's being a devotee of
Pythagoreanism. The text reads:

"His sacrifices, also, had great similitude to the ceremonial of
Pythagoras, for they were not celebrated with effusion of blood, but
consisted of flour, wine, and the least costly offerings."

However there are two other passages, one which stands in stark
contradiction to this apparently universal claim about Numa's religious
practice, and another which may provide a clue about Plutarch's
misunderstanding of a tradition associated with Numa. In the first of
these passages Plutarch explicitly states that:

"...the longest time of mourning for any person whatsoever was not to
exceed the term of ten months; which was the time appointed for women
that lost their husbands to continue in widowhood. If any married again
before that time, by the laws of Numa, she was to sacrifice a cow big
with calf."

I cannot imagine a more direct statement that at least one sort of blood
sacrifice was not merely tolerated, but mandated by Numa. The passage
referring to blood sacrifice appears to provide an explanation which
runs contrary to Plutarch's claim of Numa's supposed Pythagoreanism:

"It was he, also, that built the temples of Faith and Terminus, and
taught the Romans that the name of Faith was the most solemn oath that
they could swear. They still use it; and to the god Terminus, or
Boundary, they offer to this day both public and private sacrifices,
upon the borders and stone-marks of their land; living victims now,
though anciently those sacrifices were solemnized without blood; for
Numa reasoned that the god of boundaries, who watched over peace, and
testified to fair dealing, should have no concern with blood."

Here Numa is presented as maintaining that specific deities did not
require blood sacrifices for reasons specific to their cult. However,
even here Plutarch is contradicted by Ovid (Fasti ii.643ff) regarding
the caerimonia of the Terminalia, where Ovid claims extraordinary
antiquity for a caerimonia involving blood sacrifice to Terminus.

My fundamental point is fourfold. First, the only evidence for a
universal prohibition of blood sacrifice in the Religio Romana is a
passage in a work by a Greek, Plutarch, who has a specific philosophical
prejudices for this claim and who contradicts his own claim of such a
prohibition six paragraphs later in the same work. Second, this same
Greek author makes a number of mistakes about Roman religious practices
which are plainly exposed by Roman sources. Third, there are some cults
within the Religio Romana where non-blood sacrifices may be preferable
to blood sacrifices, but this is to be determined by careful examination
of historical sources in each case. Fourth, while there are clearly
cases in the cultus of the Religio Romana where blood sacrifice is
preferable -- as shown by multiple ancient sources -- this is not to say
that non-blood sacrifice is unacceptable if blood sacrifice is not
available. However, this fact should not be an argument for making no
effort to restore the blood sacrifices which were the most common form
of worship in the Religio Publica in the overwhelming majority of
cultus. Or is your personal speculation about what was original or not
to "primitive" Romans in their Religio to be preferred over the wealth
of historical, literary, epigraphic, and archaeological evidence which
points to blood sacrifice as the norm in the vastly majority of Roman
cultus?

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem XVIII Kalendae Maii; the day is nefastus.

Tomorrow is ante diem XVII Kalendae Maii and the Feria Fordicaliae;
the day is nefastus publicus. The Fordicalia, sacred to the Goddess
Tellus, the Earth Mother, was celebrated by the sacrifice of
thirty-one pregnant cattle (fordae boves) on the Capitoline, one for
each of the Curiae of the city plus one for the Capitol, and their
unborn calves. The victims were immolated entirely, as were their
fetuses. Thus, the fertility of the cattle was encouraged to pass
into the earth itself. The ashes of the sacrificed fetuses were then
taken by the Vestal Virgins for use in the Parilia later in the month.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Iuli,

Salve consul G. Equiti,

> Gaius Iulius Scaurus wrote:
> > However, I
> > reject absolutely the assertion that the Religio Privata and

Publica

> > should abandon the historically attested practice of blood

sacrifice.

>
> On this point, I fear we must ever disagree my friend. I know that
>you conducted such a sacrifice earlier this year, but I consider
>that your own act made by your own choice. The day that the
>Collegium Pontificum declares that such sacrifices are part of our
>official practices will be the day I resign my citizenship from Nova
>Roma and take my family with me. When I joined I was assured we had
>no such practices, and I will not have such things done in my name.

May I ask why consul? Scaurus has staked out the position in favor of
blood sacrifice quite eloquently but I have to admit I was taken
aback by your threat to leave. I hope you will explain your obviously
strongly felt position.

Vale,

Palladius

Salve Tiberius Galerius Paulinus et salvete cives Romani:

My name is Lucius Suetonius Nerva and I would like to announce my candidacy for the Plebeian Aedileship. I have been a citizen of Nova Roma since February of AUC 2756 and am currently classified by the Censors as Assidui and of the Plebeian order.

I would be pleased to answer any questions as to my qualifications for the above office.

Valete

L. Suetonius Nerva





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Gn. Equitio Marino et Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,


Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:

>
>>>Do want to build a new Capitolium?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Yes. We do want to build a new Capitolium.
>>
>>
>
>Well, some of us do. Many others of us see the idea of having a 108
>acre site as something for several generations hence. It's very hard to
>speak for the State on such matters, since interpretations vary so much.
>
>My personal feeling on the matter of building a physical site is that it
>should happen *only* after funds have been raised for that purpose,
>invested in a long-term growth investment account, and borne fruit. I
>don't think we can possibly come up with that kind of money from our
>small and voluntary annual tax. The annual tax was never intended to
>pay for a land acquisition effort.
>
>

I whole heartedly agree. We do cannot establish some sort of physical
"headquarters" until after significant fund raising and investment. It
will certainly take years, perhaps decades, but we need to start
thinking about how we are going to get there *now*. What worries me is
the possibility such a goal will be regarded as too far fetched for Nova
Romans to start laying the necessary groundwork. Will it take more than
taxes? At our current rate of tax collection, no question.

I suppose my point in all this is that we are adding citizens to our
rolls who either do not understand the long term goals of Nova Roma or
simply regard them as some sort of pipe dream. We are not doing
ourselves any favors by doing this. Perhaps NR needs to re-examine how
it grants citizenship, or at the very least create some kind of
education program for new (or preferably prospective) citizens to let
them know exactly what Nova Roma is really about. I think one critical
(and very Roman) piece missing from NR citizenship, is the ideal of
civic responsibility. A Nova Roman citizen is currently not expected or
required to have any. A citizen does not have to vote or pay taxes. Does
not have to participate in any public fora or hold office. A citizen is
not expected to contribute anything at all. How many of are current
citizens are like this? Is this what we want? We have over 2000 Nova
Roman citizens on the rolls. How many of them have done *anything* for
Nova Roma? When I tell people about Nova Roma, and when they ask how
many citizens we have, what should I tell them? 2,000? That would
technically be true, but how many Nova Romans really contribute in some
way? Maybe 200? We expect nothing from our citizens, and so naturally a
large majority of them give us nothing in return, and that is a major
problem. The taxation issue is merely a symptom of a wider malaise. It's
bad enough when a macro-nation like the U.S. (whose citizenry is
primarily born into that status) suffers from serious public apathy
about civic affairs, for a *completely voluntary* organization like NR
it is potentially disastrous.

>As I've said before this, what's truly needed is a dedicated fund into
>which people can donate monies for long-term investment. Don't confuse
>that with the funds needed to provide for the operation of the state and
>the provinces each year.
>
>
>

I think this is a great idea, and I would certainlly support it.

>Valete,
>
>-- Marinus
>

Bene valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

In a message dated 4/13/04 10:43:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bcatfd@... writes:

> The day that the
> >Collegium Pontificum declares that such sacrifices are part of our
> >official practices will be the day I resign my citizenship from Nova
> >Roma and take my family with me. When I joined I was assured we had
> >no such practices, and I will not have such things done in my name.
>

Consul Equitius,
Salve
Should we not let the gods decide? If they want blood, they will make their
wishes known, just as they will if they don't want blood. I believe that Nova
Roma is larger then you and
I, so I expect you'd want the best for our Republic, no matter what your
personal preferences
would be. As being assured, no one had the authority to do that save the
College themselves, and I don't recall the question being asked of the College.
Bene Value

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Romans are over. They merged and turned onto ourselves nowadays. What
Nova Roma wants is bringing back the best of their heritage

Ah, but the Romans are not over. We are resurrecting them. We are
rebuilding their governmental structures, the Religio, the philosophy. This is just
one of our many sacred missions.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete !

Without developping the question of knowing if we need really large
amount of money (I would answer No, for the moment), I would like to
draw your attention to a thing:

I think that our spirit is so deformed by modern
commercial "civilization" we judge all according to money. We should
not forget that Roman civilization started to decline the day the
Romans ceased practising their virtues to devote themselves to the
defects (defect of firmness, misses strength, corruption, etc) money
not only allows but causes.

Life shows every day that decided men can succeed in their projects
even with few means

Valete !

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Provinciae Galliae Legatus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:

> AURI SACRA FAMES!
>
> L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis Propraetor, former quaestor,

omnia quiritibus plus salutat

>
> Citizens!
>
> Now I come to the rostra, as your sacrosainct Tribune, to ask to

your mostly deep feelings!

>
> Long time since I am citizen I see this... (what I can say?) ...

obsession... for getting money for Nova Roma... not simple money...
but big money... big huge money...

>
> Money indeed is worthy for great things. With money we can restore

an ancient temple. With money we can pay the hostage of our website.

>
> However, with money, we can steal our organization. We can have

scandals of corruption.

>
> But for what do you think Nova Roma REALLY needs money? I say

´REALLY´ needs for its survival? And how much?

>
> Money for what?
> How much for what?
>
> Just asking... this ´contio´shall show us mostly
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis Propraetor
> Former Quaestor Former Aedile
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger - Fale com seus amigos online. Instale agora!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Rutilio Minervalis et Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,


Lucius Rutilius Minervalis wrote:

>Salvete !
>
>Without developping the question of knowing if we need really large
>amount of money (I would answer No, for the moment), I would like to
>draw your attention to a thing:
>
>I think that our spirit is so deformed by modern
>commercial "civilization" we judge all according to money. We should
>not forget that Roman civilization started to decline the day the
>Romans ceased practising their virtues to devote themselves to the
>defects (defect of firmness, misses strength, corruption, etc) money
>not only allows but causes.
>
>
>

I think it is important here, to distinguish a devotion to material
wealth, and the regognition of its usefullness. I'm not saying that NR
aquire wealth as some kind of validating exercise, but rather a means to
an end. Money is simply a tool, and a very handy one at that. In
addition to its core role as a focal point for the rebirth of the
Religio Romana, I envision NR as someday developing into a major
"Classical" chairitable organziation, rasing and donating money for
education and research into Classical history, religion, language, arts,
etc. All of which, of course, requires funding.

>Life shows every day that decided men can succeed in their projects
>even with few means
>
>
>

Well, yes to an extent. But it is hard to donate money to an
archeological dig, or to a site restoration project or to establish a
Classical langauge scholarship fund with out having the money first.
Money may not be everything, and Nova Roma certiainly needs hard work
and dedication from its citizens as well, but that does not diminish a
need for funding.

>Valete !
>
>Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
>Provinciae Galliae Legatus
>
>

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

H. RVTILIVS BARDVLVS G. IVLIO SCAVRO S.P.D.

Salve, inclite Pontifex.

> Why is it so objectionable to slaughter an animal, offer its >

exta to a God or Goddess, and then eat the edible remaining

> portions in a common meal with the Gods?

[Bardulus] Because consul Marinus is not a butcher, neither I
am. There is a sutile difference between *eat* an animal and
*kill* it. If you think that you can sacrifice an animal and
then eat it, go ahead, it's your business. But there are people
here in Nova Roma that, worshiping the Dii Inmortales, believe
that They don't need blood. I'm one of these persons. In my
Sacra Domestica I only use incense, salt, flour, wine, and milk,
and yes, I think the Gods are pleased with this humble
sacrifice.

> I confess I find it disturbing that one of the seniormost
> magistrates of the republic should suggest that
> conscientiously following the mos maiorum in the
> reconstruction of the Religio Romana is a reason to abandon
> citizenship.

[Bardulus] Consul Marinus won't be the only citizen that resigns
his novaroman citizenship if the Collegium Pontificium passes
such a decision. I will follow him.

> matter like choosing from a restaurant menu: one from column >

A, two from column B, none from Column C.

[Bardulus] Are you stating that we must reconstruct *all* the
ancient practices of Roma Antiqua? Then, for example, what about
slavery? And what about with women rights? Can we use the modern
medicine and go to a modern physician? Can we take a plane and
travel by the air?

> When we know what the religious practice of the Roman
> republic was from ample primary sources and reject it, we are
> no longer practicing the Religio Romana; we are making up
> something entirely new based on nothing more than our own
> preference.

[Bardulus] And do you really think that *all* the ancient romans
did animal sacrifices? I'm sure that there were people that
sacrificed only salt, wine and flour, instead of animals,
because of their poverty. Were they less romans or less Religio
Romana practicioners?

> What prodigies justify the abandonment of sacrifice?

[Bardulus] What prodigies justify that the ancient Religio
Romana offices and priesthoods should be restaured? The Dii
Immortales themselves established tha Sacra Publica of the
ancient Roman State, are you sure that They agree with the Sacra
Publica of a new Roman State outside the Vrbs? What prodigies
justify this?

> is exactly what those who sought to extirpate the Religio
> Romana desired.

[Bardulus] On the contrary, I'm sure that consul Marinus wants
to see the Religio Romana grow and spread, as I want. But we
think that the blood sacrifices are not an essential practice of
a modern-rebuilded Religio Romana.

Please, don't look at this as a condemnation, Scaure. Feel free
to make your sacrifices at your own way inside the borders of
your Sacra Domestica. But let us be free to do the same.

Respectfully,

Si vales, bene est et gaudeo. Ego autem valeo.

H·RVTILIVS·I·FIL·R·NEP·CLVST·TRIB·BARDVLVS
PATER·GENTIS·RVTILIAE
CIVIS·PRIVATVS·NOVAE·ROMAE






__________________________________________
Correo Yahoo! - 6MB de espacio ¡Gratis!
http://correo.yahoo.es

Salve,

L. Arminius Faustus Tribune SPD

Citizens!

I´ve seen many posts here and I praise the gods by the discussion we
are sharing. I think it is one of the most sacred duties of the
Tribunes shaking discussions like this on our wounds.

However, I cannot agree more from the excellent post of Minervalis,
really a man worthy of his agnomen and Gallia province, because I
barely have seen so much wisdow on this forum. He said, and for me
tasted like an oracle.

On other hands, the words of Cassius Iulianus were indeed wise as
well... why complaining about money, if we still are far away of
having an ammount ´workable´?

Understand, citizens, When I talk about dreamful projects, I talk
with authority. Argumentum ad verecundium! I´m process engineer, and
I´m working very now on a very big expansion project of
hydrometalurgical plants. So, I know the costs of basic engineering,
civil building, mechanical, eletrical, instrumentation instalations
of equipments. I notice most of you haven´t realized yet HOW MUCH
money is needed for a project. Sure we will not build a factory, but
civil engineering we will need is still costly. Ah, yes! Do not
complain with this Tribune, complain with this Engineer! As Tribune,
I have acess of NR budget. As Engineer, I had acess to the budget of
the projects of a big corp. I know what I´m talking, it is my daily
job.

I´m sad, however. I´m sad to seem ´on the opposite of the wave´,
mostly of the posts disagreed with me. But I was elected Tribune by
you to do that. It is my sacred duty. I´ll continue to show you how
ludicrous is planning budgets and enginnering while we can barely
fill all magistratures! I´ll continue to show you how ludicrous is
planning temples, while the domestic religio is not well entablished
on all NR houses (and notice that the worship of the fire of Vesta is
just the public emanation of the fire of the domestic religio. Oh,
gods on my new soapstone lararium, I pray to you to enlight us!) I´ll
continue to show you how ludicrous is planning rebuild the Capitolium
while most of us can barely read a roman author on weekend, or know
the basic of latin.

So, in fact, I rest in peace. Time is the father of truth. I´ll not
teach you ´good-sense´, this will come only with time. And I will not
fill a ´engineering and investment treat´ (Faustus - De Construtione -
never!) to explain you. Discuss, decide and think hardly to get
money, there will be lots of zeros to fill on our account before
going to the basic engineering. But think dearly: even the biggest
corporations, heavy rich industries, rely on public money as loan to
build and expand, paid back on sweet years to the government. I doubt
a small Non-Profit Organization could even... shut up, Faustus!

No problem! Dream! It is your right! Dream, quirites! The dreams are
the seed of human development! Dream, like Dedalus has dreamt! Dream,
like Jason has dreamt!

By the way, Have Argentina and Gallia already a propraetor?
No? Hum...

This is what I say and I will say while Iove gives me forces:

We still are far away of doing our homework. We are dreaming and
making plans for Collegue and even pHD, but are not studying for the
Elementary School Tests we are now!

Continue with the ´budget stockpiling´... it will take many
consulships, but continue if it is the ´vox populi´. I warn you,
however, to be very patience.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

PS. Momo, the god of Sarcasm, has told on my ear a good thing indeed.
We could buy propraetores and active citizens with this money.
Ehehehe, I´ll offer him a cup of wine for that. Ridendo castigat
mores.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Rutilius Minervalis"
<pjtuloup@y...> wrote:

> Salvete !
>
> Without developping the question of knowing if we need really large
> amount of money (I would answer No, for the moment), I would like

to

> draw your attention to a thing:
>
> I think that our spirit is so deformed by modern
> commercial "civilization" we judge all according to money. We

should

> not forget that Roman civilization started to decline the day the
> Romans ceased practising their virtues to devote themselves to the
> defects (defect of firmness, misses strength, corruption, etc)

money

> not only allows but causes.
>
> Life shows every day that decided men can succeed in their projects
> even with few means
>
> Valete !
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
> Provinciae Galliae Legatus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > AURI SACRA FAMES!
> >
> > L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis Propraetor, former quaestor,
> omnia quiritibus plus salutat
> >
> > Citizens!
> >
> > Now I come to the rostra, as your sacrosainct Tribune, to ask to
> your mostly deep feelings!
> >
> > Long time since I am citizen I see this... (what I can say?) ...
> obsession... for getting money for Nova Roma... not simple money...
> but big money... big huge money...
> >
> > Money indeed is worthy for great things. With money we can

restore

> an ancient temple. With money we can pay the hostage of our website.
> >
> > However, with money, we can steal our organization. We can have
> scandals of corruption.
> >
> > But for what do you think Nova Roma REALLY needs money? I say
> ´REALLY´ needs for its survival? And how much?
> >
> > Money for what?
> > How much for what?
> >
> > Just asking... this ´contio´shall show us mostly
> >
> >
> > Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis Propraetor
> > Former Quaestor Former Aedile
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger - Fale com seus amigos online. Instale agora!
> >
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Salve Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

The Centrum Group was formed in Nova Roma to help raise funds. The Treasury should be receiving the first 10 pledges for a total of $1000.00 shortly, you may already have received some. While it is up to you and the Senate to decide what to do with this money, might we suggest that you use it to start the " long-term growth investment account" you mention below. We have two more people who have also join the Centrum group and as soon as we have 8 more you should expect the next $1000.00 pledged.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Money... lots of money for Nova Roma... for what?


Salvete Quirites,

It's my intention to let Tribune Arminius Faustus handle this
discussion, since he invited it. However, I did want to address one item.

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus wrote:

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
[...]
>>Do want to build a new Capitolium?
>>
>>
>
> Yes. We do want to build a new Capitolium.

Well, some of us do. Many others of us see the idea of having a 108
acre site as something for several generations hence. It's very hard to
speak for the State on such matters, since interpretations vary so much.

My personal feeling on the matter of building a physical site is that it
should happen *only* after funds have been raised for that purpose,
invested in a long-term growth investment account, and borne fruit. I
don't think we can possibly come up with that kind of money from our
small and voluntary annual tax. The annual tax was never intended to
pay for a land acquisition effort.

As I've said before this, what's truly needed is a dedicated fund into
which people can donate monies for long-term investment. Don't confuse
that with the funds needed to provide for the operation of the state and
the provinces each year.

Valete,

-- Marinus





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Salve Tiberi Galeri, et salvete Quirites,

Stephen Gallagher wrote:

> Salve Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
> The Centrum Group was formed in Nova Roma to help raise funds. The
> Treasury should be receiving the first 10 pledges for a total of
> $1000.00 shortly, you may already have received some. While it is up to
> you and the Senate to decide what to do with this money, might we
> suggest that you use it to start the " long-term growth investment
> account" you mention below. We have two more people who have also join
> the Centrum group and as soon as we have 8 more you should expect the
> next $1000.00 pledged.

I sincerely appreciate this effort you've organized Tiberius. I will
ask the Senate to invest the gifts of the Centum Group in a long term
growth account. Through the magic of compound interest this $1000.00
will grow over time, and will do us much good in the future.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salvete Quirites!

I am happy to announce we have a new cive of our Republic and in
gens Popillia.

Please welcome Gallus Popillius Cicero who resides in America
Austrorientalis.

It is always a great day for Popillia when someone new joins our
modest gens.

Valete,

Gaius Popillius Laenas

Salve!

> Continue with the ´budget stockpiling´... it will take many
> consulships, but continue if it is the ´vox populi´. I warn you,
> however, to be very patience.

I don't know about the "budget stockpiling" but I can site a real
world, 'right now' example of why money (taxes) is important.

I'm the a legate in Lacus Magni. Someone suggested on this list
that everyone should gather locally to celebrate the birth of NR
which occurs on April 21. We are doing this (although on the 24th
as its a Saturday). In order to get as many people as possible to
come I decided to send out invitation via US Mail (to show that we
are trying to become a real world organization). There are 40
citizens in my area that received those invitations.

Cost of 40 postcard size invites (1 side in color): $17.98 US
Cost of mailing afore mentioned invites: $9.20 US

Cost of having more than the normal group get together for this:
Priceless


That's $27.18 US - real money for a real NR event happening *this
month.* I paid for that out of my own pocket but one day the
province may wish to utilize this method for future events (such as
this year's annual gathering). Additionally, I mentioned in a
previous post the "Welcome Packet" we are developing to be mailed
(US Mail again) to new citizens in hopes to educate and promote
active citizens. That will cost money to print & mail. Our annual
gatherings have costs associated with them which are paid for with
tax money. Taxes are important NOW, not just for future endeavors.

BTW: Yes, I could have solely printed the invites in black & white
and saved myself exactly $12.87 but I wanted them to stand out.
This is probably the first time our citizens received something in
the mail from us and I wanted them to look somewhat
professional.

Oh, and sorry for the cheesy Mastercard joke. I couldn't resist. :)

Vale,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia
Legate, Regionis Orientalis (OH,WV,KY)
The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
and
Scriba Censoris

Salvete Tribune Amininus Faustus et alii:

Tribune I always enjoy reading your posts, and as you've indicated,
there are many opinions on Nova Roma's financial needs...as many as
there are dreams which accompany what can be accomplished, given the
funds.

You encourage dreams (the platform for many good ideas) yet gently
insert a reality check that we are scratching the surface as yet, and
that perhaps certain priorities have to be addressed before others.

And I agree, this is part of the role of a good Tribune :)

Pompeia

G. Equitius Cato Novoromanis S.P.D.

valete omnes!

Ummmm....I'm new, and I am as enthusiastic as anybody about NR. I'm also an Anglican, and I think that even as accepting as the Anglican Church is, it may frown upon its members becoming involved in animal sacrifices to the Roman gods. In the first two centuries of the Church's existence, my brothers and sisters in Christ were slaughtered for not even sprinkling incense before the image of the emperor.
Technically, today not even Judaism can claim to be practiced fully, as Mosaic Law absolutely requires blood sacrifices to appease God; since Judaism has found a way of surviving without the Temple and its attendant ceremonies, I would very strongly urge the citizens of NR, of whatever rank, who choose to worship the Roman gods to do so in a manner that will not involve this kind of activity. If someday we can actually build a Forum, and a Senate House, etc., I would not find it acceptable to have them stained with the blood and entrails of animals.
If I cannot be assured that there will not be blood sacrifices in the name of NR, I will have to give up my citizenship immediately.

valete

Cato

That's my formal statement. My informal one is: ZOINKS! Guys, c'mon! This is absurd! ANIMAL SACRIFICES? It is wonderful to consider the possibilities of NR but for Pete's sake we live in the 21st century.


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Salvete omnes!

It was my bad.

First, I forgot that my total number of cituizens was 17, not 20. My math was wrong. Brazil's tax would be US$5.00/per capita.
Second, I was informed that each country's tax is ALREADY adjusted per that country's GDP, so taxes vary already, and significantly. It was in the tax Edict, which I...uhhh....*cough*...didn't read all the way through.
Third, I had just finished a 10-hour work day and was a little crazed. I have decided that I'll leave the tax thingy to those who have been arguing about it since the Dead Sea was only sick.

valete!

Cato


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G. Equitius Cato Novoromanis S.P.D.

Salve G. Iulius Scaurus:

Shall we then adopt all of the practices of the religio romana? We know of three instances, recorded by Livy and Plutarch, where a ritual human sacrifice was performed at Rome. Two pairs of Gauls and Greeks, a man and a woman each, were buried alive in the Forum Boarium. The instances recorded took place in the years 228, 216 and 113 BCE. In each case these sacrifices were made in response to instructions taken from the Sibylline Books. The sacrifices seem to have been made to the Manes and Dii Inferi. Plutarch (Roman Questions 83) noted the Roman attitude that disapproved of other peoples making human sacrifice to the gods, and wondered, "Did they (the Romans) think it impious to sacrifice human beings to the gods, but necessary to sacrifice them to the Manes? We hear of Vestal Virgins being buried alive too, usually on the excuse that they had broken their vows of chastity.. In the year 483 BCE Vestal Oppia was so buried as unchaste, but Livy (2.42) makes clear that this was
really a sacrifice made to appease the gods when bad omens appeared. The same seems to be the case in the execution of Vestal Cornelia by Domitian (Pliny the Younger, Epistle 4.11). The burials of the Gauls and Greeks in 216 and 113 followed shortly after the burials of Vestal Virgins. It is thought that these burials were connected in a common ceremony of propitiation to the Manes.

Other instances where the Romans clearly employed human sacrifice is in the devotio of Roman generals, sacrificing themselves to the Manes, as did Decius Mus in 340 BCE (Livy VII.9.1-10). By a special rite the general first offered himself to the gods, then charged headlong into the enemy. If he did not happen to die, then to fulfill his vow a larger than life statue of himself was to be buried in substitution (Livy VIII.10.12), just as in the use of the argei puppets. Victims of human sacrifice, certain criminals, and some suicides were prohibited from being cremated. They could only be buried. That too may point to the distinction made in Plutarch's question, that human sacrifices were made to the Manes and Dii Inferi rather than to the Di consentes and the celestial gods.

A very interesting case of human sacrifice occurred in the Regal period that involved the sanctifying of the pomerium. When Servius expanded the city walls, a sacrifice was made of four individuals, buried beneath the old pomerium wall that encircled the Palatine Hill. Those bodies were only recently discovered after Carandini discovered the old Palatine pomerium wall. The four tombs included the usual ritual elements, dating to about 650 BCE. Tomb 1 was an adult male; age 30-40, with his head inclined and arms at his side. Along with him were buried two amphorae, a collana (necklace), one plate and two fibulae. Tomb 2 was a child laid in a sleeping position, along with one small amphora and two fibula. Tomb 3 was a young adult male aged 16-18, laid out like the older male. He was buried with one amphora; a large cup, two little cups, two plates, two pieces of bronze and one ring, all placed on the left side of the tomb. Tomb 4 was a female laid out in a fetal position, and oriented
in a different direction from all the others. She was buried along with one amphora. These sacrifices were made because the old wall was being violated in the process of extending the pomerium with the new Servian Wall.

There is no record to indicate that such a sacrifice was made when Sulla expanded the pomerium walls, but there is that possibility. When Augustus refounded the city four small columns were buried near the house of M. Aemilius Scaurus that are related to the Servian sacrifices. Excavations have not been completed, but the pomerium wall found by Carandini near the Arch of Constantius, if extended towards the Arch of Titus, comes to Aemilius' house north of the Arch of Titus, separated by the Clivio Palatina where the columns were found between 1862-1866. Column A is now missing, only its registration number and description is known. On it was inscribed "Marspiter." Column B is 48 cm in height, 13 cm in diameter, and inscribed "Remureine." This has been interpreted as "in memory of Remus" and relates the sacrifices to the legend that Remus was sacrificed to sanctify Romulus' pomerium. (One of the 31 versions on how Remus died.) Column C was 67 cm in height, 18 cm in diameter,
inscribed "Anabestas," thought to be from the Greek anabasio, meaning "to go up." Column D is the most interesting. It is 49 cm in height, 20 cm in diameter. Inscribed in archaic Latin, it has "FERTER RESIUS REXAE QUI COLUS IS PREMIUS IUS FETIALE PARAUIT INDE P(OPULUS) R(OMANUS) DISCIPLEMAM EXCEPIT." "It is said that they turned up the Kings of Distaff. Under the authority of the Fetiales, in the name of the Roman people, they were sealed."

The location where these columns were found, beneath the Clivio Palatina, is where legend claimed Remus "crossed the pomerium." Columns A and D were laid inside the pomerium, connecting them with the divine, where columns B and C were laid outside and connected with the auctor of the violation, or with the military forces meant to defend the pomerium and the city, yet prohibited from entering it itself or allowing enemies to enter as well. These four Augustan columns are thought to either commemorate the four Servian sacrificial victims, or to have been buried in substitution of sacrificial victims. Either way, it implies that a ritual of human sacrifice was made to the gods for their assistance in defending the city of Rome, and that such a sacrifice was connected to the legend of Remus, that he sacrificed himself or was killed by Celer in defense of the pomerium.

When do you suggest we continue the sacrifice of humans? When the pomerium is inscribed in Nova Roma?

"Christian atheism" is an oxymoron, by the way. Christianity accepts the sacrifice of Christ as an end to the spilling of the blood of animals in appeasement for sin and as an appeal to the Deity once and for all. I will not bother here with an apologia of Christianity, but please do not bring it into this discussion, as it will needlessly offend those of us who are Christians.

vale et valete

Cato



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Salve, excelent pontifex,

Your authority on this subject for my eyes is so great that I´d be
guilt of disrespect if I not comment it .

"I shall pay whatever rate the Senate in its wisdom chooses to set."

I hope the Senate continues with the reasonable politics of taxes we
have now. It is not perfect, but pretty good.

"I must take considerable objection to one of your arguments about NR
not needing significant sums of money for the Religio Romana..."

No problem. We are here to search common goals. If you have something
that proves me wrong, bring here, for our common goals.

"It is true that most of the caerimoniae of the Religio Privata are
relatively inexpensive (I spend perhaps $20 US per month on incense,
incense charcoal, wine, and cakes for my daily rituals)."

We are on agreement. And most important than all offering, pietas.
This is the ´egiptian gold´ the pagans must learn with the
christians. Pietas is much more worthy than offerings.

"I reject absolutely the assertion that the Religio Privata and
Publica should abandon the historically attested practice of blood
sacrifice."

You reject. But it is an compromise NR has decided to take. I reject
also the land project. But I know there is between others goals of
Nova Roma. Not the priority, however.

So, we are not ´Agree or Abandon´. It is pretty good to know, because
I hear much this argument on this forum. Disagreement with arguments
with some general NR politics is our right also. And on the same way
you have arguments to convince people about the needs of bloodly
sacrifice, I post also my arguments to show people about how
undonable and pretentious is this project.

However, I fight to death the necessity of funding for Magna Mater
Restoration.

"I have engaged in blood sacrifice in my Religio Privata"

Each lararium has its own rituals. On your lararium, do as you
desire. I just fear the description of home rituals can be an item to
deny applications for priesthood. And ask your assistance in my case.

"I have engaged in blood sacrifice in my Religio Privata and in the
Religio Publica as Flamen Quirinalis and have willingly borne the
significant costs of such sacrifices."

Just a warning:

AS SACROSAINCT TRIBUNE OF THE PLEBIS I adress that I disagree deeply
having bloodly sacrifice on Public Rituals before an deeply
discussion and agreement of the Collegium Pontificium, Senate and the
Comitia Populi.

I´d put my sacred tribunitian body between the knife and the victim
to stop any blood sacrifices when I´m present. How would dare to
touch a sacred Tribune?

"It is supported by innumerable examples that historical
practitioners of the Religio Romana devoted large sums of money to
the building and maintenance of temples for the worship of the Gods
and the expense of the sacrifices traditionally offered to the Di
Immortales."

Dearest, I will not continue to the subject of bloodly sacrifices, to
not miss the focus.

I agree, agree deeply about the public buildings. But understand my
question. When the public buildings and worship were built, each
roman had his lararium and immemorial family rituals.

How we, Novoromans, desire to be truly roman worshippers trying to
jump to big public building for worship if we haven´t still
entablished a good domestic religio on our houses?

Iove will not hear any praiers of people that do not worship their
lares. It is a paradox. Pray to the gods of the distant High Heaven,
forget the closest gods of your own family.

So, we are still on our very initial phase, the domestic religio, and
do not need much public money.

This is my point.

"To build temples > and make sacrifices is precisely the opposite of
a role playing game: it > involves greater contribution of resources,
financial and temporal, than > any reasonable person would make for a
mere game."

All of this is worthless if we have not a good domestic religio, the
base of everything.


"The Collegium Pontificum is currently trying to develop a > series
of electronic instructional media to show the proper posture, >
gestures, texts, and pronunciation of the most basic caerimoniae of
the > Religio. We hope eventually to be able to provide real-time,
streaming > video of caerimoniae for the major feriae. All of this
will take money > to develop and maintain."

This is indeed good news. However, the question is the pattern of the
sum of the money. To make a video/midia way to teach rituals, sure
is a money NR is capable to have, and incredible lower than a project
of a public building.

Understand? NR may need money, not big money. Money to pay NR
website, money enough to make a video. But never a sum to raise a
forum!

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Fauste.

Dearest Modia,

Like I´ve stated on the post for excelent Scaurus, the question is
the ammount. Sure expenses of postcards are incredible lower and
´handable´ than the money needed for a building.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Agrippina Modia Aurelia"
<whiterose13.geo@y...> wrote:

> Salve!
>
> > Continue with the ´budget stockpiling´... it will take many
> > consulships, but continue if it is the ´vox populi´. I warn you,
> > however, to be very patience.
>
> I don't know about the "budget stockpiling" but I can site a real
> world, 'right now' example of why money (taxes) is important.
>
> I'm the a legate in Lacus Magni. Someone suggested on this list
> that everyone should gather locally to celebrate the birth of NR
> which occurs on April 21. We are doing this (although on the 24th
> as its a Saturday). In order to get as many people as possible to
> come I decided to send out invitation via US Mail (to show that we
> are trying to become a real world organization). There are 40
> citizens in my area that received those invitations.
>
> Cost of 40 postcard size invites (1 side in color): $17.98 US
> Cost of mailing afore mentioned invites: $9.20 US
>
> Cost of having more than the normal group get together for this:
> Priceless
>
>
> That's $27.18 US - real money for a real NR event happening *this
> month.* I paid for that out of my own pocket but one day the
> province may wish to utilize this method for future events (such as
> this year's annual gathering). Additionally, I mentioned in a
> previous post the "Welcome Packet" we are developing to be mailed
> (US Mail again) to new citizens in hopes to educate and promote
> active citizens. That will cost money to print & mail. Our annual
> gatherings have costs associated with them which are paid for with
> tax money. Taxes are important NOW, not just for future endeavors.
>
> BTW: Yes, I could have solely printed the invites in black & white
> and saved myself exactly $12.87 but I wanted them to stand out.
> This is probably the first time our citizens received something in
> the mail from us and I wanted them to look somewhat
> professional.
>
> Oh, and sorry for the cheesy Mastercard joke. I couldn't

resist. :)

>
> Vale,
>
> Agrippina Modia Aurelia
> Legate, Regionis Orientalis (OH,WV,KY)
> The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
> and
> Scriba Censoris

Salvete Quirites, et salve Deci Iuni,

deciusiunius wrote:

[In reply to my comments here]

>>On this point, I fear we must ever disagree my friend. I know that
>>you conducted such a sacrifice earlier this year, but I consider
>>that your own act made by your own choice. The day that the
>>Collegium Pontificum declares that such sacrifices are part of our
>>official practices will be the day I resign my citizenship from Nova
>>Roma and take my family with me. When I joined I was assured we had
>>no such practices, and I will not have such things done in my name.
>
>
> May I ask why consul?

Of course you may Palladius. I think that if Nova Roma goes down this
road, we will forever marginalize ourselves as a "nut fringe" group. If
we insist on taking a position which is repugnant to so much of modern
society they will have no interest at all in hearing what we have to say
about the value of the Virtues as a guide in modern life.

> Scaurus has staked out the position in favor of
> blood sacrifice quite eloquently but I have to admit I was taken
> aback by your threat to leave.

I'd rather think of it as a clear statement of what I'm now willing to
tolerate for me and mine. I think it's very important for community
leaders to take a public stand on issues they consider morally
important. Since I think an adoption of blood sacrifice would do long
term damage to Nova Roma as a force for moral suasion in the world, I
feel that I must oppose it, clearly and unambiguously.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salvete Quirites,

I don't want anyone thinking I'm ignoring Iulius Scaurus's post. We've
taken it to private e-mail.

-- Marinus

Gregory Rose wrote:

> G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Marine mi amice.

[Discussion continued in private e-mail.]

Salve Quinte Fabi, et salvete Quirites,

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

> Should we not let the gods decide? If they want blood, they will make their
> wishes known, just as they will if they don't want blood.

[...]

> As being assured, no one had the authority to do that save the
> College themselves, and I don't recall the question being asked of the College.

Then perhaps the College had better clarify its public position, since
we have another Pontiff who is claiming to be conducting such sacrifices
with the approval of the Collegium Pontificum already.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salve, excelent Strabo,

Thanks by your kind words. They are most rewarding for me.

Yes!
Yes!
Yes!
You encouraged me to open the dams of my heart!
I´m a Tribune! Like the ancient Sicinius, Icilius, Canuleius, L.
Sextius! I must speak the paradoxes of this Res Publica, for our sake!

I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´ architeture
while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the fingers of
the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues the
cursum honorum.

I cannot gather even five assidui novoromanos on a 10 million souls
city like São Paulo, on the very second city of the world, even to
drink a beer! I see daily the incredible number of Capite Censi
increasing and increasing, making our censores much more prey to work
in vane of stupid applications!

What I am saying about São Paulo? I turn my eyes to the south and see
Argentina, might country, without an assidui to be a propretor! Come
on, men! Oh tempora oh mores! And people making plans to raise
budget? What a hell of budget! To the Di Infernales the budget! AURI
SACRA FAMES!

We cannot even sustain a discussion with our citizens about a book of
religio romana (Scheid or Coulanges, doesn´t matter), and we still
expect cut the throat of goats like the Ancient? And the lararium?
Can all of us post a photo of our lararium here? Oh, no?!

We cannot even write a phrase on latin, but we want to make togas and
walk happily throught a Vatican sized ager publicus... for me,
building without really cultural substance is a tematic park...
´Roman Disney´... ahahaha... Vatican Sized! It is a joke! The Roman
Church has 1 billion followers and MM years on back to have 108
acres... and Nova Roma? 1000 assidui and V years? Much less assidui!

Ianus Father, Iove Stator,
Iuno Regina, Minerva Sapientissima
Concordia, Salus Publica
Quirinus and Vesta
Ceres and Magna Mater
Shine upon us on this subject
Make the Novo Romans dream
But put their feet on the earth
Put on them good sense
Nova Roma is great indeed,
Founded by thy blessings
But we still are on infancy
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi
Teach to them that we must dream
However, our homework do not need much
Resources or treasures of Pergamus
Make them more Cincinatus than Lucullus
On the future, riches will flow
On a consolidated Res Publica
Not now, still not now...
Do not fast the right term of things
Do not make us build a Capitolium
Without good foundation on the mud
Gold statues with clay feet are ludicrous
Novo romans, be patient,
Be clever, think on long-term
We may only have a land for our grand-grandsons
If we strengh us in good citizens now
Like the Ancient did not dreamt an Empire
But with hard work, gained it with the centuries
They cared only of a virtuous city
Power came as a natural consequence
Naturally...

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribune of the Plebis

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:

> Salvete Tribune Amininus Faustus et alii:
>
> Tribune I always enjoy reading your posts, and as you've indicated,
> there are many opinions on Nova Roma's financial needs...as many as
> there are dreams which accompany what can be accomplished, given the
> funds.
>
> You encourage dreams (the platform for many good ideas) yet gently
> insert a reality check that we are scratching the surface as yet,

and

> that perhaps certain priorities have to be addressed before others.
>
> And I agree, this is part of the role of a good Tribune :)
>
> Pompeia

In a message dated 4/14/04 8:28:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

> That's my formal statement. My informal one is: ZOINKS! Guys, c'mon!
> This is absurd! ANIMAL SACRIFICES? It is wonderful to consider the
> possibilities of NR but for Pete's sake we live in the 21st century.
>
>

Let the Gods decide. It is they will make the final determination. It is
not for us to say. We carry out their wishes, not the other way around. And
what does the 21st Century have to do with it? I take it you have not been to
Israel recently.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes ~

I do not believe we should ever have public Animal Sacrifice.
While I very much want to see the Religio restored, and agree we must
follow the Will of the Gods in the matter of sacrifices, any Animal
Sacrifices would have to be done in strictest Privacy and never spoken
of Publicly.
It would have to be unanimous within the College of Pontifices that
this is indeed the Will of the Gods, and even then it would have to be
done privately and with all discretion. If any were to ask, the
response could never confirm nor deny animal sacrifice: It could only
be "The appropriate sacrifices are being carried out", without
specifying what those sacrifices are.

This is because Marinus is correct. Whenever I see a news article
about a religious group that performs animal sacrifice, it is never in
a favourable light; in fact, it tends to be sensationalized. The views
and beliefs of the Religion are neglected, while the Animal Rights
protesters get lots of coverage!

This is not how we want Nova Roma to be seen ~ we don't want to be in
the press opposite a Voodoo Priestess sacrificing a goat in Florida,
with the Virtues receiving no mention while the SPCA gets all the good
ink!

So I will agree that we want the Religio restored, and that we must
carry out such sacrifices as the Gods Will, but if that EVER includes
Animal Sacrifice it must be NEVER spoken of outside the College of
Pontifices! It MUST be kept in absolute Private (if it ever happens at
all) and NEVER be made public ~ The results would be disastrous!

Our Public statement can never be other than "The appropriate
sacrifices are being made to the Gods, as They have revealed." In
Public Rituals that can never be other than non-blood sacrifices:
Cereals, Incense, Libations and the like. That is the Reality of the
world in which we live.

Such is my opinion.

Valete
~ Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus

On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
wrote:

> Salvete Quirites, et salve Deci Iuni,
>
> deciusiunius wrote:
>
> [In reply to my comments here]
>>> On this point, I fear we must ever disagree my friend. I know that
>>> you conducted such a sacrifice earlier this year, but I consider
>>> that your own act made by your own choice. The day that the
>>> Collegium Pontificum declares that such sacrifices are part of our
>>> official practices will be the day I resign my citizenship from Nova
>>> Roma and take my family with me. When I joined I was assured we had
>>> no such practices, and I will not have such things done in my name.
>>
>>
>> May I ask why consul?
>
> Of course you may Palladius. I think that if Nova Roma goes down this
> road, we will forever marginalize ourselves as a "nut fringe" group.
> If
> we insist on taking a position which is repugnant to so much of modern
> society they will have no interest at all in hearing what we have to
> say
> about the value of the Virtues as a guide in modern life.
>
>> Scaurus has staked out the position in favor of
>> blood sacrifice quite eloquently but I have to admit I was taken
>> aback by your threat to leave.
>
> I'd rather think of it as a clear statement of what I'm now willing to
> tolerate for me and mine. I think it's very important for community
> leaders to take a public stand on issues they consider morally
> important. Since I think an adoption of blood sacrifice would do long
> term damage to Nova Roma as a force for moral suasion in the world, I
> feel that I must oppose it, clearly and unambiguously.
>
> Vale,
>
> -- Marinus
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> Canada.
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> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/wWQplB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Salve,

Dearest Mercurius Troianus, keeping it secret is even worse. Making a
secret ritual, we turn Nova Roma onto a Secret Society, we lost all
the governmnetal recognization on all countries and can even be
persecuted and investigated as ´Conspiracy Group´. The Majority of
countries consider secret societies ilegal.

And on a so broad organization like ours, is impossible keep this
secret.

I was even wondering if the confession here on this list to many
people of a Nova Roma´s Pontifex and Curule Aedile, G. Iulius
Scaurus, that he has murdered an animal on a bloodly sacrifice, no
matter what ritual or way he has used, couldn´t even bring him
prosecution or even to Nova Roma.

We should ask legal assistance urgently about this.

As Tribune it is my duty make this warning to the People of Nova
Roma. Be aware the ides of april.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribune of the Plebis


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus
<hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:

> Salvete Omnes ~
>
> I do not believe we should ever have public Animal Sacrifice.
> While I very much want to see the Religio restored, and agree we

must

> follow the Will of the Gods in the matter of sacrifices, any

Animal

> Sacrifices would have to be done in strictest Privacy and never

spoken

> of Publicly.
> It would have to be unanimous within the College of Pontifices

that

> this is indeed the Will of the Gods, and even then it would have to

be

> done privately and with all discretion. If any were to ask, the
> response could never confirm nor deny animal sacrifice: It could

only

> be "The appropriate sacrifices are being carried out", without
> specifying what those sacrifices are.
>
> This is because Marinus is correct. Whenever I see a news

article

> about a religious group that performs animal sacrifice, it is never

in

> a favourable light; in fact, it tends to be sensationalized. The

views

> and beliefs of the Religion are neglected, while the Animal Rights
> protesters get lots of coverage!
>
> This is not how we want Nova Roma to be seen ~ we don't want to

be in

> the press opposite a Voodoo Priestess sacrificing a goat in

Florida,

> with the Virtues receiving no mention while the SPCA gets all the

good

> ink!
>
> So I will agree that we want the Religio restored, and that we

must

> carry out such sacrifices as the Gods Will, but if that EVER

includes

> Animal Sacrifice it must be NEVER spoken of outside the College of
> Pontifices! It MUST be kept in absolute Private (if it ever

happens at

> all) and NEVER be made public ~ The results would be disastrous!
>
> Our Public statement can never be other than "The appropriate
> sacrifices are being made to the Gods, as They have revealed." In
> Public Rituals that can never be other than non-blood sacrifices:
> Cereals, Incense, Libations and the like. That is the Reality of

the

> world in which we live.
>
> Such is my opinion.
>
> Valete
> ~ Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus
>
> On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:53 AM, Gnaeus Equitius

Marinus

> wrote:
>
> > Salvete Quirites, et salve Deci Iuni,
> >
> > deciusiunius wrote:
> >
> > [In reply to my comments here]
> >>> On this point, I fear we must ever disagree my friend. I know

that

> >>> you conducted such a sacrifice earlier this year, but I consider
> >>> that your own act made by your own choice. The day that the
> >>> Collegium Pontificum declares that such sacrifices are part of

our

> >>> official practices will be the day I resign my citizenship from

Nova

> >>> Roma and take my family with me. When I joined I was assured

we had

> >>> no such practices, and I will not have such things done in my

name.

> >>
> >>
> >> May I ask why consul?
> >
> > Of course you may Palladius. I think that if Nova Roma goes down

this

> > road, we will forever marginalize ourselves as a "nut fringe"

group.

> > If
> > we insist on taking a position which is repugnant to so much of

modern

> > society they will have no interest at all in hearing what we have

to

> > say
> > about the value of the Virtues as a guide in modern life.
> >
> >> Scaurus has staked out the position in favor of
> >> blood sacrifice quite eloquently but I have to admit I was taken
> >> aback by your threat to leave.
> >
> > I'd rather think of it as a clear statement of what I'm now

willing to

> > tolerate for me and mine. I think it's very important for

community

> > leaders to take a public stand on issues they consider morally
> > important. Since I think an adoption of blood sacrifice would do

long

> > term damage to Nova Roma as a force for moral suasion in the

world, I

> > feel that I must oppose it, clearly and unambiguously.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > -- Marinus
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or

Lexmark

> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US

&

> > Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/wWQplB/TM
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

---

> > ~->
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Salve Consul, salvete Quirites:

Pontifex Gryllus posted about this on the Religio list last
September I believe, and I will look for his posts, where he quotes
the history of Numa, with passages, and disagrees with Scaurus.
This was critical for me in the Religio as I am a firm animal-
lover, vegetarian and also buddhist. I will NEVER do such a thing. If
it is required I will in all conscience resign my priesthood.
optime valete,
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
sacerdos Matris deum

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.

Salve,

Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:

>I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´ architeture
>while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the fingers of
>the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues the
>cursum honorum.
>
>

No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture at this
time. What I am saying is if we *ever* plan on being able to have any
sort of construction some day, we had better start thinking about how we
are going to find, save and invest the money we will *eventually* need
now. If we keep saying it can't be done becuase we'll never have the
resources, they it *will* never be done. Self fuffilling prophecy.

>I cannot gather even five assidui novoromanos on a 10 million souls
>city like São Paulo, on the very second city of the world, even to
>drink a beer! I see daily the incredible number of Capite Censi
>increasing and increasing, making our censores much more prey to work
>in vane of stupid applications!
>
>
>

I agree here. Nova Roma needs to rethink the way we award citizenship,
and embark on a thorough education program for new citizens to ensure
they understand both thier rights and responsibilities, and keep them
engaged in the daily workings of NR. I would love to here any
suggestions you have to help solve this problem.

>What I am saying about São Paulo? I turn my eyes to the south and see
>Argentina, might country, without an assidui to be a propretor! Come
>on, men! Oh tempora oh mores! And people making plans to raise
>budget? What a hell of budget! To the Di Infernales the budget! AURI
>SACRA FAMES!
>
>

There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while still planning
for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally exclusive.

>We cannot even sustain a discussion with our citizens about a book of
>religio romana (Scheid or Coulanges, doesn´t matter), and we still
>expect cut the throat of goats like the Ancient? And the lararium?
>Can all of us post a photo of our lararium here? Oh, no!
>
>

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:
http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg

>We cannot even write a phrase on latin, but we want to make togas and
>walk happily throught a Vatican sized ager publicus... for me,
>building without really cultural substance is a tematic park...
>´Roman Disney´... ahahaha... Vatican Sized! It is a joke! The Roman
>Church has 1 billion followers and MM years on back to have 108
>acres... and Nova Roma? 1000 assidui and V years? Much less assidui!
>
>

While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with) your point,
I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova Roma, do you
really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic goals enshrined in
our founding documents as a Joke?

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Rogator
Legatus Regionis Massachusetts
Lictor

Salve, excelent sacerdos,

Your words are very worthy to comment. You stated some points I liked
a lot.

"> Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:

> http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg"

Yes! I´ve seen it on the Minerva´s Temple. I liked a lot and used on
inspiration for mine! Congratulations by it!

"> No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture at
this > time."

Long time ago we have seen plans of making many Curias, a threat lost
on ML. But do not take it ´at letter´, it is just an exemple.

"> There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while still
planning > for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally exclusive."

They are not mutually exclusive, except in our time of dedication.
Having citizens we garantee budgets. And... I would like to have many
citizens to enjoy our forum.

But our best riches is our human resources. Let´s invest on them.
Money will come naturally.

"While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with) your
point, > I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova Roma,
do you > really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic goals
enshrined in > our founding documents as a Joke?"

Yes, I fell! This document is not sacred word. We can criticize it
and re-edit, no problem. They are not ´enshrined´, ohohohoh, never!
They are not description of rituals, neither pontifical inner annals,
neither the sibiline books. And as magistrate, alas, as sacrosainct
body, since a Tribune is not really a magistrate, I have liberty to
be more daring and incisive on my ´figures of language´ on the
subjects I fell important for NR without fear of reprisals. I fear
the Gods only when I talk, and most of them, Veritas.

But what is really a joke? Trying, with just with 5 years and 1000
assidui, making this long-term goal. I´m certain the goals on the
document are long-term. I´m certain the writter of this text has
thinking on long time ahead, looking foward a bigger Nova Roma.

But it is a good idea make an re-ediction of this ´chart of goals´
reflecting the aspirations of the Novo Romans nowadays. God subject
to bring to a contio. They are just goals put on words. Words can be
better forged, and goals can be changed with time.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
>
> Salve,
>
> Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
>
> >I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´

architeture

> >while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the fingers

of

> >the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues the
> >cursum honorum.
> >
> >
>
> No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture at

this

> time. What I am saying is if we *ever* plan on being able to have

any

> sort of construction some day, we had better start thinking about

how we

> are going to find, save and invest the money we will *eventually*

need

> now. If we keep saying it can't be done becuase we'll never have

the

> resources, they it *will* never be done. Self fuffilling prophecy.
>
> >I cannot gather even five assidui novoromanos on a 10 million

souls

> >city like São Paulo, on the very second city of the world, even to
> >drink a beer! I see daily the incredible number of Capite Censi
> >increasing and increasing, making our censores much more prey to

work

> >in vane of stupid applications!
> >
> >
> >
> I agree here. Nova Roma needs to rethink the way we award

citizenship,

> and embark on a thorough education program for new citizens to

ensure

> they understand both thier rights and responsibilities, and keep

them

> engaged in the daily workings of NR. I would love to here any
> suggestions you have to help solve this problem.
>
> >What I am saying about São Paulo? I turn my eyes to the south and

see

> >Argentina, might country, without an assidui to be a propretor!

Come

> >on, men! Oh tempora oh mores! And people making plans to raise
> >budget? What a hell of budget! To the Di Infernales the budget!

AURI

> >SACRA FAMES!
> >
> >
> There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while still

planning

> for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally exclusive.
>
> >We cannot even sustain a discussion with our citizens about a book

of

> >religio romana (Scheid or Coulanges, doesn´t matter), and we still
> >expect cut the throat of goats like the Ancient? And the lararium?
> >Can all of us post a photo of our lararium here? Oh, no!
> >
> >
> Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:
> http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg
>
> >We cannot even write a phrase on latin, but we want to make togas

and

> >walk happily throught a Vatican sized ager publicus... for me,
> >building without really cultural substance is a tematic park...
> >´Roman Disney´... ahahaha... Vatican Sized! It is a joke! The

Roman

> >Church has 1 billion followers and MM years on back to have 108
> >acres... and Nova Roma? 1000 assidui and V years? Much less

assidui!

> >
> >
> While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with) your

point,

> I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova Roma, do you
> really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic goals

enshrined in

> our founding documents as a Joke?
>
> Vale,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
> Rogator
> Legatus Regionis Massachusetts
> Lictor

Salve,

Again, I will re-comment my impressions...

The excellent sacerdos Minervae has questioned the tone of one of my
speeches.

Yes, this is one of the most sacred rights of NR, the right to
question its magistrates of their words and acts. I´ll be very happy
the day the novoromans uses this right intensively. It has caused
that I´d better explain my views, and prevent us of unnecessary
stress. In fact, his questioning was the best thing he could do for
me, made me revise on a better way my own arguments.

The Gods indeed make justice, because it came just after I´ve posted
questioning the act of a NR pontifex. It is good to not make us fall
on hybris... the questioner can be questioned and vice-versa!

... and remember us of our responsabilities...

... and how we must care of each other...

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:

> Salve, excelent sacerdos,
>
> Your words are very worthy to comment. You stated some points I

liked

> a lot.
>
> "> Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:
> > http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg"
>
> Yes! I´ve seen it on the Minerva´s Temple. I liked a lot and used

on

> inspiration for mine! Congratulations by it!
>
> "> No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture

at

> this > time."
>
> Long time ago we have seen plans of making many Curias, a threat

lost

> on ML. But do not take it ´at letter´, it is just an exemple.
>
> "> There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while still
> planning > for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally

exclusive."

>
> They are not mutually exclusive, except in our time of dedication.
> Having citizens we garantee budgets. And... I would like to have

many

> citizens to enjoy our forum.
>
> But our best riches is our human resources. Let´s invest on them.
> Money will come naturally.
>
> "While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with) your
> point, > I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova

Roma,

> do you > really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic goals
> enshrined in > our founding documents as a Joke?"
>
> Yes, I fell! This document is not sacred word. We can criticize it
> and re-edit, no problem. They are not ´enshrined´, ohohohoh, never!
> They are not description of rituals, neither pontifical inner

annals,

> neither the sibiline books. And as magistrate, alas, as

sacrosainct

> body, since a Tribune is not really a magistrate, I have liberty to
> be more daring and incisive on my ´figures of language´ on the
> subjects I fell important for NR without fear of reprisals. I fear
> the Gods only when I talk, and most of them, Veritas.
>
> But what is really a joke? Trying, with just with 5 years and 1000
> assidui, making this long-term goal. I´m certain the goals on the
> document are long-term. I´m certain the writter of this text has
> thinking on long time ahead, looking foward a bigger Nova Roma.
>
> But it is a good idea make an re-ediction of this ´chart of goals´
> reflecting the aspirations of the Novo Romans nowadays. God subject
> to bring to a contio. They are just goals put on words. Words can

be

> better forged, and goals can be changed with time.
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
> <c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
> > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
> >
> > >I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´
> architeture
> > >while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the

fingers

> of
> > >the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues the
> > >cursum honorum.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture at
> this
> > time. What I am saying is if we *ever* plan on being able to have
> any
> > sort of construction some day, we had better start thinking about
> how we
> > are going to find, save and invest the money we will *eventually*
> need
> > now. If we keep saying it can't be done becuase we'll never have
> the
> > resources, they it *will* never be done. Self fuffilling prophecy.
> >
> > >I cannot gather even five assidui novoromanos on a 10 million
> souls
> > >city like São Paulo, on the very second city of the world, even

to

> > >drink a beer! I see daily the incredible number of Capite Censi
> > >increasing and increasing, making our censores much more prey to
> work
> > >in vane of stupid applications!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > I agree here. Nova Roma needs to rethink the way we award
> citizenship,
> > and embark on a thorough education program for new citizens to
> ensure
> > they understand both thier rights and responsibilities, and keep
> them
> > engaged in the daily workings of NR. I would love to here any
> > suggestions you have to help solve this problem.
> >
> > >What I am saying about São Paulo? I turn my eyes to the south

and

> see
> > >Argentina, might country, without an assidui to be a propretor!
> Come
> > >on, men! Oh tempora oh mores! And people making plans to raise
> > >budget? What a hell of budget! To the Di Infernales the budget!
> AURI
> > >SACRA FAMES!
> > >
> > >
> > There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while still
> planning
> > for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally exclusive.
> >
> > >We cannot even sustain a discussion with our citizens about a

book

> of
> > >religio romana (Scheid or Coulanges, doesn´t matter), and we

still

> > >expect cut the throat of goats like the Ancient? And the

lararium?

> > >Can all of us post a photo of our lararium here? Oh, no!
> > >
> > >
> > Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:
> > http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg
> >
> > >We cannot even write a phrase on latin, but we want to make

togas

> and
> > >walk happily throught a Vatican sized ager publicus... for me,
> > >building without really cultural substance is a tematic park...
> > >´Roman Disney´... ahahaha... Vatican Sized! It is a joke! The
> Roman
> > >Church has 1 billion followers and MM years on back to have 108
> > >acres... and Nova Roma? 1000 assidui and V years? Much less
> assidui!
> > >
> > >
> > While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with) your
> point,
> > I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova Roma, do

you

> > really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic goals
> enshrined in
> > our founding documents as a Joke?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> > Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
> > Rogator
> > Legatus Regionis Massachusetts
> > Lictor

Posts snipped for brevity

Salvete Omnes et Tribune Faustus:

I believe that a precedent has atleast been established in the U.S.
whereby an animal was sacrified, under certain conditions of course,
within the framework of a religious rite and such was legally upheld.

My source for this information right now is third party, and I believe
it was brought up by L. Sicinius Drusus in times past when this
discussion was taken up. In fact, I remember seeing it more than
once, but I'm pretty sure Drusus brought it up once.

So although the moral and religious points of animal sacrifice are a
topic of debate, it does not seem that there is immediate worry,
atleast in the U.S. about Pontiff Scaurus' actions, and he is a U.S.
citizen as well as a Nova Roman.

I just wanted to clear the air on that point of the debate, and set
minds at ease.

Pompeia

Salva Sp.Fabia Vera Fausta ~

As we enjoy freedom of worship, you can NEVER be compelled or required
to perform or participate in any ritual which your conscience objects
to!

Vale
~ Troianus

On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:00 PM, Sp. Fabia Vera wrote:
>>>
>>> Salve Consul, salvete Quirites:
> Pontifex Gryllus posted about this on the Religio list last
> September I believe, and I will look for his posts, where he quotes
> the history of Numa, with passages, and disagrees with Scaurus.
> This was critical for me in the Religio as I am a firm animal-
> lover, vegetarian and also buddhist. I will NEVER do such a thing. If
> it is required I will in all conscience resign my priesthood.
> optime valete,
> Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
> sacerdos Matris deum
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/wWQplB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

Well since two of the Pontifices have weighed in on the issue, I may as
well be number 3.

First off, I *think* there may be some misunderstanding regarding my
colleagues position. (If I'm putting words in your mouth Gaius Iulius,
please tell me to shut up!) I do not believe my colleague is saying that
aninimal sacrifice *must* be a component of domestic worship in every
Nova Roman household practicing the Religio. I think instead he is
stating that any Nova Roman is fully in his rights to practice animal
sacrifice, including any Pontifex or Sacerdotes making an offering on
behalf of the State. There are very few of us who are prepared to do so
in Nova Roma right now, including myself. I have no moral objections,
but rather simply lack the training/experience, facilities and necessary
resources. Nor do I see myself having the ability any time soon. I do
however, fully support the right of Gaius Iulius Scarus in his role as
Pontifex and Flame Quirinalis to make such offerings on belhalf of the
State and in accordance with the Mos Maiorum, and as long as he is not
violating any macro-national law. Let us not get the Cultus Privatus and
the Cultus Publicus confused. No-one is can tell any citizen of Nova
Roma how they worship in private, and simple non-blood offerings were
certainly the rule for the vast majority of domestic sacrifice, if for
no other reasons than the cost. Blood sacrifice was the *rule* for the
State religion however, and while it certainly is not practicable to
restore such practices full scale any time soon, we should be thankful
that there is at least one Pontifex who has the capabilities of honoring
the Gods correctly today.

I have a question to pose to those of you who are opposed to the
practice of animal sacrifice in the Religio: If a citizen, who also
happened to be a farmer, offered a prayer to the Gods while slaughtering
one of his livestock, and gave part of the animal to the Gods before
butchering it and perparing it for dinner for his family, woudl you
object? 95% of the time, that is all animal sacrifice in the Religio is.
A domestic *food* animal, is slaughtered (which it would end up being
anyways, for non-religious purposes), in a humane fashion, and after an
inspection of its exta (almost certainly originally the farmer making
sure the animal had been healthy) it was butchered and eaten or its
surplus meat sold to local butcher shops, and a portion of the animal
given to the Gods as part of a communal banquet.

This is not some senseless bloody slaughter of innocent animals for no
good purpose. I suspect many Nova Romans make food offerings to the Gods
at meal times, which would logically include portions of cooked meat
that may be part of there meals. How is it, morally, any different than
animal sacrifice? It is some how less objectionable becuase they didn't
have to get thier *hands dirty* by actually performing or witnessing the
killing themselves. The animal still died, and in many cases it died in
rather nasty circumstances. Is the opposition to animal sacrifice
becuase we're just too sqeamish? We'll eat a steak that's blood free,
and neatly, mechanically prepackaged, becuase that way we don't have to
think about where it came from, and how it got onto our grill? It's
still a cow.Or is the objection religious? I can understand why a
Christain would object to animal sacrifice, but then again in theory,
worshipping a graven image should be equally objectionable to them. Why
should animal sacrifice be any *more* objectionable to a Christian than
the idolatry we Roman pagans all practice every day?

My colleague Pontifex Q. Fabius Maximus also makes an excellent point.
Let the Gods decide. If we make blood offerings, and They are displeased
by such things, They will surely let us know.

I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone, as it was not my
intent. It is nearly impossible not to offend some-one when speaking
frankly about matter of either religion or politics, but this is an
issue that cannot be ignored.

I would also like to note that while I am a Pontifex and Minerva Templi
Sacerdotes this is my *personal* opinion, and is not necissarily the
official position of the Collegium Pontificum, any more than the
position of a U.S. Senator or Congressman is the offical ruling of the
whole body of Congress. I suspect this issue will be coming up for
debate and clarification in the Collegium soon, at which point an
offical policy will hopefully be established.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Rogator
Legtus Regionis Massachusetts
Lictor

In a message dated 4/14/04 10:11:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lafaustus@... writes:

> I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´ architeture
> while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the fingers of
> the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues the
> cursum honorum.
>

Tribune,
After reading your Rant in the forum I have but one thought. I say this to
everyone who believes we are over reaching, not moving quick enough, etc.,
" Rome was not built in a day. What a long work the building of Rome will
be."
Virgilus.
Six years People! In existence six years! Give it time. This has to out
last us, not benefit us.
Our benefit comes from the satisfaction of doing this work, giving something
our linage needs, our destiny demands! And all I hear is me! Me! ME!
Nova Rome has never been about me even US! It's about bringing back to the
light a civilization we have all admired and attempted to live our lives
according to its precepts.

Never about you. It's about Rome. You are here in for the long haul here or
you are not in at all.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Uff... you took me a fear away. Thanks a lot, Strabo... today you are
really to make me happy :)

L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:

> Posts snipped for brevity
>
> Salvete Omnes et Tribune Faustus:
>
> I believe that a precedent has atleast been established in the U.S.
> whereby an animal was sacrified, under certain conditions of course,
> within the framework of a religious rite and such was legally

upheld.

>
> My source for this information right now is third party, and I

believe

> it was brought up by L. Sicinius Drusus in times past when this
> discussion was taken up. In fact, I remember seeing it more than
> once, but I'm pretty sure Drusus brought it up once.
>
> So although the moral and religious points of animal sacrifice are a
> topic of debate, it does not seem that there is immediate worry,
> atleast in the U.S. about Pontiff Scaurus' actions, and he is a U.S.
> citizen as well as a Nova Roman.
>
> I just wanted to clear the air on that point of the debate, and set
> minds at ease.
>
> Pompeia

Salve,

However, I understand her point. I also will not be confortable on a
Organization that sponsor this kind of sacrifice.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus Tribune

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus
<hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:

> Salva Sp.Fabia Vera Fausta ~
>
> As we enjoy freedom of worship, you can NEVER be compelled or

required

> to perform or participate in any ritual which your conscience

objects

> to!
>
> Vale
> ~ Troianus
>
> On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:00 PM, Sp. Fabia Vera wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Salve Consul, salvete Quirites:
> > Pontifex Gryllus posted about this on the Religio list last
> > September I believe, and I will look for his posts, where he

quotes

> > the history of Numa, with passages, and disagrees with Scaurus.
> > This was critical for me in the Religio as I am a firm animal-
> > lover, vegetarian and also buddhist. I will NEVER do such a

thing. If

> > it is required I will in all conscience resign my priesthood.
> > optime valete,
> > Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
> > sacerdos Matris deum
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

---

> > ~->
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Salve,

Again and again and again... continuing this digression, since
questioning is the better favour we do to a subject, nothing would
grow more and make more strong the will of having funds to make big
projects than question it each time more.

Like a diammond, lapidated 1000 times to shine more and more.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus Tribune

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Again, I will re-comment my impressions...
>
> The excellent sacerdos Minervae has questioned the tone of one of

my

> speeches.
>
> Yes, this is one of the most sacred rights of NR, the right to
> question its magistrates of their words and acts. I´ll be very

happy

> the day the novoromans uses this right intensively. It has caused
> that I´d better explain my views, and prevent us of unnecessary
> stress. In fact, his questioning was the best thing he could do for
> me, made me revise on a better way my own arguments.
>
> The Gods indeed make justice, because it came just after I´ve

posted

> questioning the act of a NR pontifex. It is good to not make us

fall

> on hybris... the questioner can be questioned and vice-versa!
>
> ... and remember us of our responsabilities...
>
> ... and how we must care of each other...
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve, excelent sacerdos,
> >
> > Your words are very worthy to comment. You stated some points I
> liked
> > a lot.
> >
> > "> Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:
> > > http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg"
> >
> > Yes! I´ve seen it on the Minerva´s Temple. I liked a lot and used
> on
> > inspiration for mine! Congratulations by it!
> >
> > "> No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture
> at
> > this > time."
> >
> > Long time ago we have seen plans of making many Curias, a threat
> lost
> > on ML. But do not take it ´at letter´, it is just an exemple.
> >
> > "> There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while

still

> > planning > for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally
> exclusive."
> >
> > They are not mutually exclusive, except in our time of

dedication.

> > Having citizens we garantee budgets. And... I would like to have
> many
> > citizens to enjoy our forum.
> >
> > But our best riches is our human resources. Let´s invest on them.
> > Money will come naturally.
> >
> > "While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with) your
> > point, > I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova
> Roma,
> > do you > really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic

goals

> > enshrined in > our founding documents as a Joke?"
> >
> > Yes, I fell! This document is not sacred word. We can criticize

it

> > and re-edit, no problem. They are not ´enshrined´, ohohohoh,

never!

> > They are not description of rituals, neither pontifical inner
> annals,
> > neither the sibiline books. And as magistrate, alas, as
> sacrosainct
> > body, since a Tribune is not really a magistrate, I have liberty

to

> > be more daring and incisive on my ´figures of language´ on the
> > subjects I fell important for NR without fear of reprisals. I

fear

> > the Gods only when I talk, and most of them, Veritas.
> >
> > But what is really a joke? Trying, with just with 5 years and

1000

> > assidui, making this long-term goal. I´m certain the goals on the
> > document are long-term. I´m certain the writter of this text has
> > thinking on long time ahead, looking foward a bigger Nova Roma.
> >
> > But it is a good idea make an re-ediction of this ´chart of

goals´

> > reflecting the aspirations of the Novo Romans nowadays. God

subject

> > to bring to a contio. They are just goals put on words. Words can
> be
> > better forged, and goals can be changed with time.
> >
> > Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus
> > Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
> > <c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
> > > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
> > >
> > > >I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´
> > architeture
> > > >while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the
> fingers
> > of
> > > >the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues

the

> > > >cursum honorum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > No-one, to my knowledge is "planning" any sort of arcitechture

at

> > this
> > > time. What I am saying is if we *ever* plan on being able to

have

> > any
> > > sort of construction some day, we had better start thinking

about

> > how we
> > > are going to find, save and invest the money we will

*eventually*

> > need
> > > now. If we keep saying it can't be done becuase we'll never

have

> > the
> > > resources, they it *will* never be done. Self fuffilling

prophecy.

> > >
> > > >I cannot gather even five assidui novoromanos on a 10 million
> > souls
> > > >city like São Paulo, on the very second city of the world,

even

> to
> > > >drink a beer! I see daily the incredible number of Capite

Censi

> > > >increasing and increasing, making our censores much more prey

to

> > work
> > > >in vane of stupid applications!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I agree here. Nova Roma needs to rethink the way we award
> > citizenship,
> > > and embark on a thorough education program for new citizens to
> > ensure
> > > they understand both thier rights and responsibilities, and

keep

> > them
> > > engaged in the daily workings of NR. I would love to here any
> > > suggestions you have to help solve this problem.
> > >
> > > >What I am saying about São Paulo? I turn my eyes to the south
> and
> > see
> > > >Argentina, might country, without an assidui to be a

propretor!

> > Come
> > > >on, men! Oh tempora oh mores! And people making plans to raise
> > > >budget? What a hell of budget! To the Di Infernales the

budget!

> > AURI
> > > >SACRA FAMES!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > There is no reason we cannot work on other problems while still
> > planning
> > > for our monetary future. They are *not* mutally exclusive.
> > >
> > > >We cannot even sustain a discussion with our citizens about a
> book
> > of
> > > >religio romana (Scheid or Coulanges, doesn´t matter), and we
> still
> > > >expect cut the throat of goats like the Ancient? And the
> lararium?
> > > >Can all of us post a photo of our lararium here? Oh, no!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here is mine:
> > > http://www.novabritannia.org/images/lararium.jpg
> > >
> > > >We cannot even write a phrase on latin, but we want to make
> togas
> > and
> > > >walk happily throught a Vatican sized ager publicus... for me,
> > > >building without really cultural substance is a tematic

park...

> > > >´Roman Disney´... ahahaha... Vatican Sized! It is a joke! The
> > Roman
> > > >Church has 1 billion followers and MM years on back to have

108

> > > >acres... and Nova Roma? 1000 assidui and V years? Much less
> > assidui!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > While I understand (even if I don't necessarily agree with)

your

> > point,
> > > I take exception at yout tone. As a magistrate of Nova Roma, do
> you
> > > really feel it is right to refer to one of the basic goals
> > enshrined in
> > > our founding documents as a Joke?
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> > > Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
> > > Rogator
> > > Legatus Regionis Massachusetts
> > > Lictor

Salve, Quintus Fabius, consular

I do not think Nova Roma is not growing fast enough. I´d really
confess I´d like to see it grow more, but we have some problems that
still are preventing us to spread like we should. These are to be
dealed as priorities. Alas, in fact, really really, it seems there is
places NR is getting smaller. We must deal with this.

However, we must not put the ´car before the horses´. For the
situation nowadays, we are not in timing to make budgets for projects
our priority.

And I really hope these subject I insist to comment and recomment are
bringing our citizens to a better view of the question, from many
sides, not only the imperfect mine.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus Tribune

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/14/04 10:11:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lafaustus@y... writes:
>
> > I´m really ´pissed off´ on seeing people planing foruns´
architeture
> > while the assidui numbers are slithering. We count on the fingers
of
> > the hand the numbers of questores/magistrates that continues the
> > cursum honorum.
> >
>
> Tribune,
> After reading your Rant in the forum I have but one thought. I say
this to
> everyone who believes we are over reaching, not moving quick
enough, etc.,
> " Rome was not built in a day. What a long work the building of
Rome will
> be."
> Virgilus.
> Six years People! In existence six years! Give it time. This has
to out
> last us, not benefit us.
> Our benefit comes from the satisfaction of doing this work, giving
something
> our linage needs, our destiny demands! And all I hear is me! Me!
ME!
> Nova Rome has never been about me even US! It's about bringing
back to the
> light a civilization we have all admired and attempted to live our
lives
> according to its precepts.
>
> Never about you. It's about Rome. You are here in for the long
haul here or
> you are not in at all.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Pompeia Cornelia et Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

While I am not 100% positive, It believe it depends on the state. I did
some research regarding the Vodun case in Florida, and I seem to recall
the laws in question were not an issue of animal cruelty, but rather an
issue of where an animal could be legally killed i.e. not in a domestic
setting. Given the fact that G. Iulius Scarus lives in rural Oklahoma,
an area where livestock abounds, I doubt he would run into any serious
legal issues, as long as the animals are killed humanely (which I am
sure they are) and used as food. Obviously whether or not a citizen of
NR could (or should) perform animal sacrifice would have to be subject
to local macro-national law. I agree this is something NR needs to look
into, and I would *highly* encourage anyone who is not familair with
thier own local laws, to do thorough research into the matter before
making any kind of blood offerings.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

pompeia_cornelia wrote:

>Posts snipped for brevity
>
>Salvete Omnes et Tribune Faustus:
>
>I believe that a precedent has atleast been established in the U.S.
>whereby an animal was sacrified, under certain conditions of course,
>within the framework of a religious rite and such was legally upheld.
>
>My source for this information right now is third party, and I believe
>it was brought up by L. Sicinius Drusus in times past when this
>discussion was taken up. In fact, I remember seeing it more than
>once, but I'm pretty sure Drusus brought it up once.
>
>So although the moral and religious points of animal sacrifice are a
>topic of debate, it does not seem that there is immediate worry,
>atleast in the U.S. about Pontiff Scaurus' actions, and he is a U.S.
>citizen as well as a Nova Roman.
>
>I just wanted to clear the air on that point of the debate, and set
>minds at ease.
>
>Pompeia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve L. Arminius Faustus!

Your point is well taken! I would prefer that the issue simply go away,
but it won't.

Yes, should the College of Pontifices ever decide it is the Will of the
Gods to have Animal Sacrifice, they should seek Legal Council first.

However, IF that should ever come about, then it is almost a certainty
that they will feel obliged to carry out the Will of the Gods.

Given the opinion of Animal Sacrifice in the World today, I was merely
suggesting that IF the Pontifices ever came to that conclusion then it
should NEVER be a Public Ritual, nor discussed in a way that it could
ever reach the Media. That is, it should be kept PRIVATE if at all
possible. I was not speaking of Secret gatherings in the dead of
night! Simply that IF it is ever to be done, it be done without
announcement and on private land away from prying eyes. That's all.

This is a very divisive issue, even within NR. I would never presume
to tell the College of Pontifices that they can NEVER do something that
can in fact be legally done in the U.S.; I was simply proposing a way
that would not reflect badly on NR or tear our organization apart.

Because it CAN be legally done in some States of the U.S., so the
situation could conceivably arise. If it ever does, I would rather not
see Nova Roma slammed in the Media, or see half of our Citizens resign
in disgust.

This is, of course, merely my opinion and what I wrote is only a
suggestion. What others do or don't do is outside of my control ~ what
I CAN do is suggest a way that avoids bad press or internal turmoil. I
am in no way recommending the sacrifice of animals, under any
circumstances! I am simply urging extreme caution and discretion on
the part of those who may consider it.

Vale
~ Troianus

On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:59 PM, Lucius Arminius Faustus
wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Dearest Mercurius Troianus, keeping it secret is even worse. Making a
> secret ritual, we turn Nova Roma onto a Secret Society, we lost all
> the governmnetal recognization on all countries and can even be
> persecuted and investigated as ´Conspiracy Group´. The Majority of
> countries consider secret societies ilegal.
>
> And on a so broad organization like ours, is impossible keep this
> secret.
>
> I was even wondering if the confession here on this list to many
> people of a Nova Roma´s Pontifex and Curule Aedile, G. Iulius
> Scaurus, that he has murdered an animal on a bloodly sacrifice, no
> matter what ritual or way he has used, couldn´t even bring him
> prosecution or even to Nova Roma.
>
> We should ask legal assistance urgently about this.
>
> As Tribune it is my duty make this warning to the People of Nova
> Roma. Be aware the ides of april.
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
> Tribune of the Plebis
>

Salve Gai Minuci, et salvete Quirites,

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus wrote:

> I have a question to pose to those of you who are opposed to the
> practice of animal sacrifice in the Religio: If a citizen, who also
> happened to be a farmer, offered a prayer to the Gods while slaughtering
> one of his livestock, and gave part of the animal to the Gods before
> butchering it and perparing it for dinner for his family, woudl you
> object?

Of course not. But that's not being done as an official act of Nova
Roma. When blood sacrifice, or any other practice which marginalizes us
from mainstream society in such a way that it makes our message about
the worth of the Virtues impossible to convey, becomes our official
practice then we are doomed to be nothing more than a fringe group.
Right now we are small, but at least we have some strength in our
diversity. Impose a practice which is guaranteed to cause currently
active people to leave, and what will be left?

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salvete Omnes,

I Have seen several threats of resignations if the Pontiffs rule that
Bllod Sacrifices are part of the Religio Publica. These threats do not
intimidate me in the least. If this matter is placed before the
Pontiffs then the only thing that I will consider is if this is needed
to placate the Immortals, not the desires of some humans, and
certainly not the desires of humans who don't even beleave in the
existance of the Imortals.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

Salvete,

> However, IF that should ever come about, then it is almost a

certainty

> that they will feel obliged to carry out the Will of the Gods.
>
> Given the opinion of Animal Sacrifice in the World today, I was

merely

> suggesting that IF the Pontifices ever came to that conclusion

then it

> should NEVER be a Public Ritual, nor discussed in a way that it

could

> ever reach the Media. That is, it should be kept PRIVATE if at

all

> possible. I was not speaking of Secret gatherings in the dead of
> night! Simply that IF it is ever to be done, it be done without
> announcement and on private land away from prying eyes. That's
> all.

Unfortunately its too late for that. Animal sacrifice has been
discussed here (& on the Religio list) on many occasions and the
rituals performed have been discussed here. This is a public forum
so any journalist or PETA do-gooder could subscribe, gather the
necessary posts, and unsub. Good thinking, but a bit too late.

Others have mentioned the legality issues surrounding this. Whether
or not its legal doesn't matter much. If the nut-bags from PETA had
any clue, they'd pull off some ridiculous protest in a heartbeat -
which would get media attention. Legal or not the public, at least
in the US, would probably go berserk. I think we have to be
prepared for that, if in no other way than on a personal level.

I could never bring myself to sacrifice an animal - even if that
sacrifice was a necessity for survival. No, I'm not a vegetarian
but I really hate blood & guts (ie coward) and couldn't take the
life of an animal. When I read of the chicken being sacrificed, by
Scaurus I think, I was taken a back at first. However it was the
way things were done so I realized its moronic of me to be put off
by it. Aside from which he & his family ate it so it so I certainly
can't fault him. After reflecting on the issue I was glad that
someone here has the facilities and the desire to practice the
Religio in its truest sense. I couldn't do it, I know that, but I'm
glad someone can. I am, however, prepared to take the heat should
this become a topic in the media - let's hope it doesn't come to
that though.

Salvete,

Agrippina

Avete Omnes,

As a Jew, let me clarify the Jewish position on animal sacrifice, since I
was questioned on it before and consulted a number of Rabbi's. When the
Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem it is a Mitzvah (commandment) that animal
sacrifice will resume. This means that once the Temple is established you
can expect the Orthodox Jews to resume the practice of Animal Sacrifice.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix




Original Message:
-----------------
From: Michael Cerrato mlcinnyc@...
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:12:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The revival of the Roman religion


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<tt>
G. Equitius Cato Novoromanis S.P.D.<BR>
<BR>
valete omnes!<BR>
<BR>
Ummmm....I'm new, and I am as enthusiastic as anybody about NR.  I'm also
an Anglican, and I think that even as accepting as the Anglican Church is,
it may frown upon its members becoming involved in animal sacrifices to the
Roman gods.  In the first two centuries of the Church's existence, my
brothers and sisters in Christ were slaughtered for not even sprinkling
incense before the image of the emperor.<BR>
Technically, today not even Judaism can claim to be practiced fully, as
Mosaic Law absolutely requires blood sacrifices to appease God; since
Judaism has found a way of surviving without the Temple and its attendant
ceremonies, I would very strongly urge the citizens of NR, of whatever
rank, who choose to worship the Roman gods to do so in a manner that will
not involve this kind of activity.  If someday we can actually build a
Forum, and a Senate House, etc., I would not find it acceptable to have
them stained with the blood and entrails of animals.  <BR>
If I cannot be assured that there will not be blood sacrifices in the name
of NR, I will have to give up my citizenship immediately.<BR>
<BR>
valete<BR>
<BR>
Cato<BR>
<BR>
That's my formal statement.  My informal one is:  ZOINKS!   Guys, c'mon! 
This is absurd!  ANIMAL SACRIFICES?  It is wonderful to consider the
possibilities of NR but for Pete's sake we live in the 21st century.  <BR>
<BR>
            <BR>
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<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>




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