Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. May 5-9, 2004

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23072 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - II - Fasces
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23073 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23074 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23075 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23076 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23077 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23078 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23079 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23080 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23081 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23082 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: P.S. to 'Constitutionalist Manifesto' thread
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23083 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Antiquities Funding
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23084 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23085 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23086 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23087 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: P.S. to 'Constitutionalist Manifesto' thread
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23088 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23089 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23090 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23091 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23092 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23093 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23094 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23095 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23096 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Thanks!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23097 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: What gave Ancient Tribunes power - (Re: Constitutionalist Manifest
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23098 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: However, the view of an ancient patricians - (What gave Ancient Tri
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23099 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... Pontiff Scaurus* Read R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23100 From: lovelyone49 Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: The Men Who Killed Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23101 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23102 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23103 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Digest No 1259
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23104 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23105 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23106 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23107 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23108 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23109 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23110 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23111 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: pridie Nonae Maii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23112 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23113 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23114 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Message 22890......
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23115 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Message 22890......
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23116 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23117 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Fw: GateLock Virus Notification.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23118 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23119 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23120 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23121 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23122 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23123 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23124 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Fw: GateLock Virus Notification.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23125 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23126 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23127 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23128 From: Caius Ianus Flaminius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: DNA researches [was Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23129 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23130 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23131 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23132 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: DNA researches [was Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23133 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: DNA researches [was Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23134 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: New Flamen Volturnalis - Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23135 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: New Flamen Volturnalis - Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23136 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: New Flamen Volturnalis - Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23137 From: olafuyi adewunmi Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: OT: ten new countries in the European Union
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23138 From: Legion XXIV Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2004
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23139 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23140 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23141 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23142 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23143 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2004
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23144 From: Stefn_Ullarsson Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: New Priesthood Appointments
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23145 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Witnessing the new Priests!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23146 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23147 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Nonae Maii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23148 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23149 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23150 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Justicia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23151 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23152 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23153 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23154 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23155 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23156 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23157 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23158 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: PS for Sardonicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23159 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1263
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23160 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23161 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23162 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23163 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23164 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - IV - Sella Curulis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23165 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23166 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Granddaughter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23167 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23168 From: alexious@earthlink.net Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23169 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: witness of priest appointments
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23170 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23171 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23172 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23173 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1263
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23174 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23175 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23176 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Witnessing the new Priests!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23177 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23178 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23179 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23180 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23181 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23182 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23183 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23184 From: lanius117@aol.com Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23185 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23186 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23187 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23188 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutional issues
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23189 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23190 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: PS for Sardonicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23191 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23192 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23193 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23194 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1264
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23195 From: O. Flavius Pompeius Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23196 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Witnessing of New Priests
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23197 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23198 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23199 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutional Matters
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23200 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Where are our Praetors ?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23201 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Praetor Gnaeus Octavius Noricus is missing
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23202 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Where are our Praetors ?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23203 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Call for Candidates: Praetor by-election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23204 From: John Gunn III Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2004
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23205 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23206 From: marullinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Aedile Plebeo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23207 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Apology
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23208 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Concerning the Petitio Actionis of Domitius Constantinus Fuscus v.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23209 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Missing Praetors - Suggestion
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23210 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Missing Praetors - Suggestion
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23211 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23212 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutional issues
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23213 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Concerning the Petitio Actionis of Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23214 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23215 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutional Matters
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23216 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1264
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23217 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23218 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23219 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23220 From: RexCurry.net Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: The "Roman Salute" was made in the U.S.A.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23221 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23222 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23223 From: M T Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: New citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23224 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Multiple issues
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23225 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23226 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23227 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1262
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23228 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: About what to do with disappeared magisrates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23229 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Justicia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23230 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23231 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Where is Noricus?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23232 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Missing Praetors - Suggestion
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23233 From: lcpontonius Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: My Sad announcement
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23234 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23235 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: G Iulius' post (was Attn:Praetores: Response required)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23236 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Aedile Plebeo
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23237 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23238 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23239 From: Laura Ferre-Middleton Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Congratulations
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23240 From: justin_lundeen1984 Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Dedication to the Gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23241 From: Laura Ferre-Middleton Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: New Citizenship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23242 From: philipp.hanenberg@web.de Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required / multiple issues
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23243 From: philipp.hanenberg@web.de Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23244 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: New Citizenship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23245 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: New Citizenship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23246 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23247 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23072 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - II - Fasces
Articles on Roman Government - II - Fasces


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.


Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.
http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.04.0062%3Aid%3Dfasces

Fasces

The Latin name for a bundle of rods, tied together by a red strap,
and enclosing an axe, with its head outside. The fasces were
originally the emblem of the king's absolute authority over life and
limb, and as such passed over to the high magistrates of the
Republic. In the city, however, the latter had to remove the axe and
to lower the rods in the presence of the popular assembly as the
sovereign power. The lowering of the fasces was also the form in
which the lower officials saluted the higher. The king was preceded
by lictors bearing twelve fasces, and so were the consuls and
proconsuls. The proconsuls, however, were, since the time of
Augustus, only allowed this number if they had actually been consuls
previously. The dictator had twenty-four fasces, as representing the
two consuls, and his magister equitum had six. Six was also the
number allotted to the proconsuls and propraetors outside the city,
and in the imperial age to those proconsuls who had provinces in
virtue of their having held the praetorship. The praetors of the city
had two, the imperial legates administering particular provinces had
five fasces. One was allotted to the flamen Dialis and (from or after
B.C. 42) to the Vestal Virgins. Fasces crowned with bay were, in the
republican age, the insignia of an officer who was saluted as
Imperator. During the imperial age, this title was conferred on the
emperor at his accession, and soon confined exclusively to him. The
emperor was accordingly preceded by twelve fasces laureati. The
lictors held their fasces over the left shoulder; but at funerals,
the fasces of a deceased magistrate, and his arms, were carried
reversed behind the bier.

The fasces appear to have been in later times made of birch (betulla,
Pliny , Pliny H. N.xvi. 75), but earlier of the twigs of the elm
(Plaut. Asin.ii. 3 Asin., 74; iii. 2 Asin., 29). They are said to
have been derived from Vetulonia, a city of Etruria (Sil. Ital. viii.
485; cf. Livy, i. 8); but for this there is no real authority (cf.
Schwegler, Röm. Gesch. i. 278, 581, 671).
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23073 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
---Ave Pater:

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Pompeia,
>
> You might want to re-read the Decretum. It states,
>
> "If animal sacrifice is conducted in accordance with this decretum, the
> slaughter of the animal must be conducted humanely, in accordance with
> the mos maiorum, and in compliance with the macronational law applying
> to the locale of the sacrifice."

Pompeia: "Macronational law applying to the locale of the
sacrifice"....whose macronational law? There are certain sections of
the world which are largely uncivilized with either loose legislation
or nil legislation where one could 'get away with murder'.

Such would be an abomination to us, but not everywhere.
>
> The sacrifice of a Pontifex violates the mos maiorum and is not in
> compliance with macronational law.

Pompeia: Again, not every macronation embraces our mos and not all
regions of the world have the same moral compass.

Pater, I am not sure what motivated the beginning of this post in the
first place. I cannot speak for Fabia Vera, so I won't speculate here
in this forum.All around as of late, there have been many stones
thrown by people who live in glass houses.

But it is a loose, yet serviceable example of how the Senate might
have to act if the Tribunes were stuck...legally, they couldn't even
veto the actions of Scaurus sacrifice, because said persons are not
magistrates...I didn't say they were magistrates. The Senate, who is
the laison to the macronational world and the Board of Directors of
Nova Roma would be the ones to take the helm on this one.

Further, this is the difficulty with neutral legislation, and please
Pontiffs, don't get upset over this one. You have written a piece of
legislation which states that you will not at this point hold public
sacrifice as a religious body in Nova Roma...you, in my opinion should
have stopped there.

The rest of the decretum is extraneous, in that such is already
provided for....anyone can sacrifice an animal according to
macronational law...what type of animal, whose macronational law... so
NR is set up for potential macronational 'trouble' by saying too much...

This started with a discussion on the Senate's role as a
constitutional court, and their ability to nix legislation, within
certain parameters.

They, in my opinion, already have this to a good extent in
ratification of new leges which affect the constitution...

They are macronationally accountable as Board of Directors, and are
made up of professionals, religious persons, and former and current
magistrates who are the least likely to place NR in jeopardy with a
laisee fair or partisan attitude toward their duties.

They have the Senatus Consultum Ultimum

I am not arguing 'for' or 'against' a constitutional court per se, but
rather stating that I don't think people are recognizing the powers
the Senate already has, based on our macronational
accountabilities...ancient Rome did not have these concerns, so they
offer us scant advice in this regard.

Po






>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pompeia_cornelia
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ*
(was R: [Nova-Roma] Fusce
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera"
<rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Avete Quirites;
>
> Salve Sacredos Fabia Vera:
>
> My comments below....
>
> > Eheu, here I have been positively embracing Concordia & look
what I
> > spy on the Main List. Though all know my vegetarian animal-loving
> > views, I believe that the Populus and the Di Immortales will
only be
> > reconciled and appeased by a really big sacrifice;
> > and I volunteer Scaurus,
>
> Pompeia: How very generous of you, but alas, there might be a few
> problems. I reread the language of the recent Collegium Decretum of
> April 24 (too lazy to do the date Roman Style) and the collegium is
> not taking a firm stand on animal sacrifice either way, as long as the
> animal is sacrificed humanely...
>
> So the sacrifice you propose could not be considered an official
> public act of public religio, as the collegium has not specifically
> decreed that.
>
> Further, you in a legal sense are not disrespecting the Religio per
> se...as under Priestly decretum Scaurus is qualified...he is fauna and
> not flora and a member of the animal kingdom..
>
> So you 'could' do it, even in your religious capacity, as either
> private practitioner or Priestess, in a private religious rite,
> according to your convictions as long as the sacrifice is
> humane.....But I don't recommend it as you would be charged with a
> major offense under macronational law...
>
> But lets look at the language of this decretum....we are saying either
> 'nay' or 'yeah' to the stance of animal sacrifice (not specifying
> which species), and postponing such until we have a physical venue
> upon which we can properly exercize such a right...so by the
> Collegium's dictate, which is neutral, an animal can be sacrificed,
> without acting in disaccord with the religious dictates of Nova Roma.
>
> So, nonetheless, imagine several citizens think Scaurus would be one
> hot sacrifice and proceed to do it, via private rite and not public
> rite...yet doing this as religio practitioners in Nova Roma.
>
> This decretum has not been vetoed by the Tribunes....it is now May 6
>
> Several practitioners have kidnapped Scaurus and he is going to the E.
> Fields......hopefully the 'know' how to do this humanely
>
> This is also macronationally illegal, but perfectly religious
> according to the language of the decretum, which doesn't specify the
> type of animal...
>
> Who will stop this macronatonal atrocity/murder from occurring?
>
> Will the Senate, as Boards of Directors of a not-for-profit
> macronational organization slip off their togas and do their
> constitutional duty to obey macronational law, in their preservation
> of the republic, to prevent the sacrifice AKA Murder One of Scaurus?
>
> Damned right they will :)
>
> You think this is a silly scenerio? Of course it is, and I am quite
> sure that's not what the collegium 'meant'...althought that's what the
> language 'said'.. but one which has bypassed due process of law, and
> in the loosest sense, illustrates that we would have nothing left but
> the Senate to bail us out.
>
> Po
> >
> > bene valete in pace deorum
> > Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23074 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
A. Apollonius Cordus to Sardonicus, who has not
troubled to mention his other names, and to all his
fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

> "The senate would in practice have the legal powers
> of a dictator in
> perpetuity, and would therefore have to maintain the
> most
> extraordinary moral rectitude and professional
> competence over a
> theoretically infinite span of time in order to
> avoid being made
> corrupt by the very fact of those powers."
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but isn't that the whole point
> of a republic?
> I, for one, find the Nova Roman Senate beyond
> reproach in everything
> they've done to date. Also, I don't think
> maintaining moral
> rectitude and professional competence should be
> perceived as
> extraordinary. It's expected.

I do forgive your ignorance, but I'm afraid that's
what it is. 'Republic' is not another word for
oligarchy, and the Roman republic was not an
oligarchy. At no point in the history of Rome, except
possibly for a brief period between the expulsion of
the kings and the establishment of the republic (an
interesting question, but not one for this message),
did the senate have such powers as Cornelia Strabo is
suggesting it be given now. Even when its authority
was greatest it could not have repealed a properly
passed lex by sheer force of its own will.

As for your second comment, I must ask you to read
again what I wrote. I wrote, "The senate would... have
to maintain the most extraordinary moral rectitude and
professional competence over a theoretically infinite
span of time". That means that the level of moral
rectitude and professional competence needed would be
extraordinary. I did not write, "The senate would...
have to maintain moral rectitude and professional
competence, which would be extraordinary", which is
what you seem to have understood me to mean despite
the fact that by no stretch of the imagination of even
the most imaginative grammarian could the sentence I
wrote have conveyed that meaning.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23075 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
M IVL PERVSIANVS G IVL SCAVRO SPD

> I answered a specific set of questions asked me by Tribunus Plebis
>Fr. Apulus Caesar. I did so out of respect and regard for the
>Tribunus, and because I believe it is my duty as a curule
>magistrate to answer the questions of a Tribunus Plebis.

that's legitimate, amice. Let me only say my personal opinion about
some points where, I believe, you gave us an opinion which could hurt
someone.
In particular I'm referring to this expression (see below) while for
the others, I assume that your personal opinion, regarding or not NR
and Rome, could be more or less true (IMHO) and relevant to the
question asked by Apulus Caesar.

>the election of a prime minister who openly praises Mussolini and
>includes Fascists in his government,

This is not true. Also your expression could offend Italians who
voted for that governement, and in general who, still having not
voted for the central-right wing, still believe in our institutions.
Like it or not (and I'm not saying that I like our current policy in
Irak, admiring what Spain have done some weeks ago), that Government
is the expression of the majority of the people. To say "you are a
Fascist" is still unpleasent to hear ;-)

and let's drop this thread, amici, NRomans will soon be bored :-)

valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23076 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
A. Apollonius Cordus to Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, and
to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

> From what I have seen, I do believe the Senate acted
> in good faith to
> date, in the tendering of well-thought and
> constitutional advice.

I shall try one more time to make my argument clear.
The past competence of a body to do a certain job is
not indicative of its future competence to do a
different job. Last year's praetors were competent and
well-meaning - shall we give them the powers of a
constitutional court? Your argument for making the
senate into a constitutional court is no less absurd.
You are arguing that the senate has done its job well
so far and has shown no sign of malicious intent. But
that does not give us any reason to believe that it
would be good at a job which, as I have repeated
explained, is completely different from the job it
does at the moment.

You further argue that no senatusconsulta have been
vetoed recently, which shows that the senate had not
behaved unconstitutionally. I haven't behaved
unconstitutionally for a few years - why not make me
the constitutional court? I'm only an amateur, but I'd
be willing to bet I know at least as much about
constitutional law as the senate.

You argue that if the senate were to abuse the powers
you propose to give it, then it could be vetoed by the
tribunes. No, it could not, because the power you
propose to give it is the power to overrule the
tribunes, and everyone else.

In a different and completely irrelevant message (in
which you also seem unaware of the fact that animals
are not legal persons and that therefore a legal
document authorizing the killing of animals can in no
way be construed as authorizing the killing of people)
you say:

> You think this is a silly scenerio? Of course it
> is, and I am quite
> sure that's not what the collegium
> 'meant'...althought that's what the
> language 'said'.. but one which has bypassed due
> process of law, and
> in the loosest sense, illustrates that we would have
> nothing left but
> the Senate to bail us out.

Well, as I've already mentioned, the decree absolutely
does not authorize human sacrifice, and the suggestion
that it does is both legally and semantically absurd.
But even if it were to do so, your claim that only the
senate could prevent such a thing occurring is
nonsense. The senate has no power under our laws or
constitution to overrule a pontifical decree - indeed
the constitution explicitly states that pontifical
decrees overrule senatusconsulta. The tribunes and the
assemblies can overrule decrees. Moreover, any attempt
to carry out a human sacrifice could no more be
prevented by the senate than it could by anyone but
macronational law-enforcers. So not only is your
scenario impossible, but your statement that only the
senate can prevent it is incorrect.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23077 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
G. Iulius Scaurus Pompeiae Corneliae Straboni salutem dicit.

Salve, Pompeia Cornelia.

> But it is a loose, yet serviceable example of how the Senate might
>have to act if the Tribunes were stuck...legally, they couldn't even
>veto the actions of Scaurus sacrifice, because said persons are not
>magistrates...I didn't say they were magistrates. The Senate, who is
>the laison to the macronational world and the Board of Directors of
>Nova Roma would be the ones to take the helm on this one.
>

As the "victim" of this hypothetical sacrifice and the author of
decretum on animal sacrifice, I have a few remarks to make. You are
making a reductio ad absurdam argument which ignores the plain text of
the decretum and seeks to impute reality to a fantasy.

>Further, this is the difficulty with neutral legislation, and please
>Pontiffs, don't get upset over this one. You have written a piece of
>legislation which states that you will not at this point hold public
>sacrifice as a religious body in Nova Roma...you, in my opinion should
>have stopped there.
>

You are, frankly, displaying an inability to parse the plain text of the
decretum and uttterly fail to understand its context. The decretum
_did_ authorise priests of the Religio Publica to offer animal sacrifice
in the caerimonia of the Religio at their discretion and subject to a
set of rules; it also indicated that no priest of the Religio Publica
was _required_ to perform such a sacrifice. The intent was to offer a
compromise which created a big enough tent, as it were, to contain all
practitioners of the Religio within it by excluding no one regardless of
personal attitude toward animal sacrifice. The objective was to avoid
schisms and irreconcilable splits among practitioners of the Religio on
the issue. I do not believe that you, as a non-practitioner, have a
sufficient knowledge of the range and intensity of opinion with the
Roman Reconstructionist polytheist community to have a considered
judgment on the varying currents of opinion with which the Collegium was
attempting to deal and the importance of preserving the widest possible
range of opinion consistent with the mos maiorum and the Religio's basis
in orthopraxis. We had considerable input from a wide range of that
opinion and I attempted to construct a compromise which embraced as much
of it as possible.

>The rest of the decretum is extraneous, in that such is already
>provided for....anyone can sacrifice an animal according to
>macronational law...what type of animal, whose macronational law... so
> NR is set up for potential macronational 'trouble' by saying too much...
>

You would prefer sacrifices without rules, without humane slaughter,
without observance of the mos maiorum, without compliance with
macronational law? If animal sacrifices are to be permitted in the
Religio Publica, and that is the preference of a substantial portion of
the practitioner community, then they must be regularised in compliance
with the Collegium's decretum. To fail to provide such rules would have
been extremely irresponsible. I am not going to put any faction of
practitioners in the position of having to leave Nova Roma as a matter
of conscience over the issue of animal sacrifice -- and that was
precisely the direction in which things were moving when the Collegium
resolved the matter with a latitudinarian compromise. If
non-practitioners choose to leave as a result of a decision of the
Collegium, that would be unfortunate, but it is not, nor should it be, a
primary concern for the Collegium Pontificum which is charged with
regulating the practice of the state religion. The fact that some
citizens do not practice the state religion is not a reason for the
Collegium to ignore its primary responsibility to sustain and encourage
maximum participation of practitioners in the state religion and to
provide proper direction for orthopraxis. We do not tell Catholics or
Lutherans or Buddhists how to practise their faiths. We do, as
pontifices, have a responsibility to ensure that Roman Reconstructionist
polytheism remains a permanent, central activity of Nova Roma, since it
is the state religion of Nova Roma, and that includes devising
compromises which avoid schisms within the practitioner community and
setting rules for appropriate performance of rituals.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23078 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Tribune Ti. Galerius
Paulinus, and to all his fellow-citizens and all
peregrines, greetings.

> I was more interested in the idea that if something
> got by a set of Tribunes , would a following group
> be within it powers, and duties and in support of
> ancient Roman practice of letting a law lapse from
> disuse instead of repealing it to veto an action
> arising from that edict?

They would be entirely within the bounds of historical
accuracy to do so. Whether they would have the strict
legal power in Nova Roma to do so is questionable, but
the fact is that nobody could stop them because no one
but a dictator can overrule a tribunician veto,
whether the veto be within the tribunes' strict legal
powers or not.

Some may argue that if a veto is 'ultra vires' (beyond
the power of the issuer) then it may be disregarded.
Two points, however, tell against this. First, who has
the power to decide whether a veto is ultra vires? The
person against whom it is issued? That would be
absurd: if anyone who is inconvenienced by a law also
has the power to interpret that law, then all but the
most consciencious among us would simply declare
whatever laws we might find inconvenient to be
invalid, and no one would be bound by any laws.
Secondly, the supremacy of the tribunician veto
derives from his or her personal sacrosanctity, which
does not vary according to the circumstances. So a
tribune, being sacrosanct, can prevent anyone from
doing anything. If anyone were to try to disregard a
tribune's veto as 'ultra vires', he would nonetheless
be liable to both human and divine punishment for
disobeying the veto since to disobey a veto is
necessarily to violate the tribune's sacrosanctity.

So the answer to your question...

> For example let us say Magistrate A publishes an
> edict and the Tribunes miss something about it they
> should not have missed and the 72 hours goes by and
> it is now in effect. Can those same Tribunes now
> veto an action arising from that edict. They can not
> now veto the edict if self but can they prevent an
> injustice from taking place now that they have
> caught the problem with the law?

... is yes.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23079 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Lanius Paulinus, and to all
his fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

> > Eheu, here I have been positively embracing
> Concordia & look
> what I
> > spy on the Main List. Though all know my
> vegetarian animal-
> loving
> > views, I believe that the Populus and the Di
> Immortales will
> only be
> > reconciled and appeased by a really big
> sacrifice;
> > and I volunteer Scaurus,
>
> Are we reading that the right way? I see she could
> be saying I
> volunteer to sacrifice Scaurus OR I volunteer to be
> sacrificed
> Scaurus.

It is grammatically impossible for Fausta's sentence
to mean that she volunteers. For it to mean that it
would have to say, "I volunteer, Scaurus". Without the
comma, it means that she volunteers Scaurus (which is
not strictly grammatical either since 'volunteer' is
not properly a transitive verb, but the intent is
clear).

I am inclined to agree with my friend Equitius
Troianus that this thread is of value only as a lesson
in the importance of punctuation. The rest of it is
between the two people concerned. I can only say that
I count them both as friends and I hope they manage to
sort it out between themselves.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23080 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Salve Aedile Scaurus,
thank you very much for your kind answer, I apprectiated your quite
tone. I'll answer you here but I would prefer to continue this
discussion privatly, because I think the macro-political attitudes
and opinions are off-topic and they coudl create other not-useful
discussions.

> I am, indeed, familiar with the demographic research to which you
refer.
> There are, however, some technical problems with it, most acute
of
> which is that we cannot definitively distinguish citizen and slave
from
> the bodies at Pompeii. Since Pompeii was part of a Roman resort
area,
> the possibility of a larger slave population than other urban
areas
> cannot be dismissed. Furthermore, by the Dominate the majority of
the
> rural population was non-free. I don't happen to think that
marauding
> Germans, Frenchmen, and Spaniards contributed all that much to the
> Italian genetic deposit (although there is some evidence that the
Arab
> contribution in Sicily may have been significant). The problem is
that
> slaves overwhelmingly outnumbered citizens in rural Italy (and in
many
> Italian towns) and freedmen constantly brought non-indigeneous
genetic
> material into the citizen line. The notion that the entire modern
> population of Italy descends from Republican citizens of Rome
simply
> doesn't stand scrutiny since the technology doesn't exist to
distinguish
> between slave/freedman and free-born citizen.

Yes I agree, your information are quite correct. However I have read
other studies (I don't remember the authors) saying that the ancient
roman genetic deposit was the asme of some more ancient italic
tribes in several areas of Center and South Italy. This suppose that
if ancient Romans had the same DNA of Sanniti, Apuli, Lucani,
Campani, etc, and the modern Italians have a genetic deposit very
similar to the Romans, the modern Italians could have the same
geneti patrimony of the more ancient men of Italy. This could mean
that the modern dominant genetic deposit could be linked to the
original habitants of Italy and to free roman men.
Of course this are only suppositions and ideas, I agree that it's
not possible today say if the genetic deposit is of slaves or
Citizens.
However you have to think that after the roman economical crash, the
cities became dangerous and poor places. The Citizens moved in the
country because the agricolture was the only possible affair. The
urban free people was forced to become rural.
In any way, I'll wait for other interesting news about demography of
Italy.

> I have no aversion to Italy or Italians at all. I love Italy and
have
> spent long periods of time there doing research. I am, however,
> critical of three aspects of modern Italian politics: the election
of a
> prime minister who openly praises Mussolini and includes Fascists
in his
> government, the slavish way in which the Italian government abets
the
> imperialist policy of the Bush administration in the Middle East,
and
> the budgetary priorities of the Italian government which fail to
> adequately fund excavation and restoration of antiquities. I also
> question the degree to devotion of many modern Italians to the
Roman
> heritage, since they could force those budgetary priorities to
change by
> the parliament and local governments they elect if they cared
deeply
> enough (I also happen to think that the populations of most
countries
> don't give much of a damn about antiquity, since the state of
> governmental support for recovery and protection of antiquities is
> deplorable just about everywhere).

Scaure, Amice et Magistrate, honestly I don't think that your
opinions about the italian government should influence your opinion
about Italians. The italians are not "Berlusconi" and we all haven't
the same ideas of our premier. I think it's a too easy and light way
to judge or comment a Nation or a group of people... ;-)
I don't like Bush and his government, but I don't think all the
Americans are imperialist and gunners like him because I'm sure that
the americans are good people.
And I'm not a fan of Berlusconi, I voted the opposite party because
I think he's not a good political. If you critice me because
Berlusconi is the italian premier, you hurt me and all the italians
(more than 50% in the last polls) which didn't support him ;-)

But I think that this discussion is off-topic in this list, we're
here to talk about Rome and not about the modern macronational
affairs. I invite you to contact me privatly if you would like to
continue our discussion.

> I am also not keen on the
> Evola-inspired Italo-centrism of some of the Roman
Reconstructionist
> movement in Italy. In Nova Roma I am skeptical of anything which
> appears to accord a special status to Italy because it militates
against
> the equality of all Nova Roman citizens and implies toward them a
lesser
> degree of commitment to Romanitas. In short, I am critical of the
> policies of the current Italian government and some attitudes
among some
> Italian Nova Romans. That does not mean that I bear any animus
> whatsoever toward the vast majority of Italians or Italy herself.

Aedile, first of all I would invite you to think that you'll have
ever the idea that some Italian Nova roman is italo-centric because
we're italian and we wrok in Italy and we're expert of ancient
italian history ... ;-) We can't avoid to be proud to be italian and
to live in a "sacer" land for Romans because everyone living here
and loving Rome should be proud. It seems that in your opinion we
italian couldn't talk about Italy because we could seem to be
nationalist ... our words don't mean "italo-centrism".
And I'm sure that if I attack publicly the USA and the history of
your honourable Nation, I should be "killed" (of course in a virtual
way) by several people here. Why you all can talk about amerian
aspects and events like the super-bowl, the shutlle Columbia, the
war in Iraq being quite proud to be american and I can't be proud to
be italian and live in the land of our Mother? ;-)
(please, read with ironical tone, I wouldn't create other
discussions ... :-)

> If you think I am especially critical of Italy, you should hear
what I
> have to say about my own country, which in my view has enmasse
boarded a
> swift train to its own destruction by embracing a consumerist
capitalism
> which is destroying any vestiges of real community, permitting
radical
> Christian fundamentalists to dictate social policy, and adopting
an
> overreaching foreign policy which has alienated virtually the rest
of
> the globe. Spain, on the other hand, is rather high in my
estimation at
> the moment, since its government has had the ballocks to tell the
> pipsqueak in the White House that it will no longer help him
destroy the
> last shred of American honour in the Middle East.

I agree with you but this is off-topic and I invite you all to
continue this discussion privatly.
Thank you for attenction, illustrus Aedile, and please sorry if my
english is so bad. :-)

Vale bene
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23081 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
>
> Since you're offering up volunteers, why not try a little self-
> sacrifice, Fabia? We can't spare Scaurus...
>
>
> Palladius<<


Sometimes a "me-too" post is unavoidable. I wholeheartedly agree
with Palladius and the sooner the better.

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23082 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: P.S. to 'Constitutionalist Manifesto' thread
A. Apollonius Cordus to Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, and
to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

It has just been pointed out to me that the tone of my
last message to you was unfairly impatient and
dismissive. I'm sorry about that, and I hope it
doesn't prejudice you against my substantive points.





____________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23083 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Antiquities Funding
--- Gregory Rose <gfr@...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Fr. Apulo Caesari salutem dicit.
>
>
> the budgetary priorities of the Italian government
> which fail to
> adequately fund excavation and restoration of
> antiquities. I also
> question the degree to devotion of many modern
> Italians to the Roman
> heritage, since they could force those budgetary
> priorities to change by
> the parliament and local governments they elect if
> they cared deeply
> enough (I also happen to think that the populations
> of most countries
> don't give much of a damn about antiquity, since the
> state of
> governmental support for recovery and protection of
> antiquities is
> deplorable just about everywhere).

Reminds of the discovery I read about when I was
living in Portugal several years ago.

Some researches had discovered a cave with a
substantial number of cave paintings. Problem was
that the cave was scheduled to be flooded by a new
electricity plant that was in process.

Portuguese legislation mandated preservation of
antiquities sites, but the language used was so vague
the argument of the Social Democratic government was
that flooding the cave under 300 meters of water was
"a form of preservation" because then you wouldn't
have a large number of people coming to see the cave
and breathing out carbon dioxide, ruining the
painitings.

Shortly after I returned to the States, I heard that
the then newly-elected Socialist government had
overturned the previous government's decisions and
decided that this cave would not be flooded.

Lucius Quintius Constantius






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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23084 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
G. Iulius Scaurus M. Iulio Perusiano salutem dicit.

Salve, Perusiane, mi care amice.

>>I answered a specific set of questions asked me by Tribunus Plebis
>>Fr. Apulus Caesar. I did so out of respect and regard for the
>>Tribunus, and because I believe it is my duty as a curule
>>magistrate to answer the questions of a Tribunus Plebis.
>>
>>
>
>that's legitimate, amice. Let me only say my personal opinion about
>some points where, I believe, you gave us an opinion which could hurt
>someone.
>In particular I'm referring to this expression (see below) while for
>the others, I assume that your personal opinion, regarding or not NR
>and Rome, could be more or less true (IMHO) and relevant to the
>question asked by Apulus Caesar.
>
>
>>the election of a prime minister who openly praises Mussolini and
>>includes Fascists in his government,
>>
>>
>
>This is not true. Also your expression could offend Italians who
>voted for that governement, and in general who, still having not
>voted for the central-right wing, still believe in our institutions.
>Like it or not (and I'm not saying that I like our current policy in
>Irak, admiring what Spain have done some weeks ago), that Government
>is the expression of the majority of the people. To say "you are a
>Fascist" is still unpleasent to hear ;-)
>
>and let's drop this thread, amici, NRomans will soon be bored :-)
>

This will be my last posting on this thread. It is a matter of fact
that (a) Berlusconi brought the National Alliance into the government,
(b) the National Alliance is composed of a substantial number of leaders
and members of the former MSI (others went into the MSI-National Flame
at the split), and (c) the former MSI is a Fascist party. I think I
made a valid inference. If a Christian Democratic chancellor in Germany
formed a political alliance with the German Peoples Union or the
National Democratic Party (the German equivalents of the MSI), there
would be unshirted international hell to pay for it. I think Berlusconi
should receive the same unshirted international hell for aligning
himself with elements of the MSI. That's a personal opinion, but not
one made in abject ignorance of Italian politics (I do read Italian
newspapers with some frequency). I'm sorry if that opinion offends some
Italians, but with an uncle buried just outside Turino, where he fell
trying to liberate Italians from Fascism and its legacy as an OSS
officer operating with Italian partisans, and another buried at Anzio,
an infantry NCO in the first wave, I feel I have some right to an
opinion on the matter.

There is also probably a generational difference here; you are three
generations removed from WWII, I am barely one. What my uncles Albert
and Thomas died fighting against was a subject of dinner table
discussion when I was growing up. The idea of the prime minister of a
democratic Italy aligning himself with people who supported the Republic
of Salo is simply outrageous to me.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23085 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
> >
>
> So, Lanius you are saying that this was a declaration of Devoto?
And not a
> mockery of a Pontifice? Interesting thought. It would not be the
first time
> someone sacrificed themselves for Rome's benefit. She better get
on with it
> then. Rome is watching.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
Salve Q. Fabi Maxime,

Well it shows one must choose words wisely. I do not know if it was
legend but do you remember from I Claudius when that one senator,
trying to get his brownie points was crying out to the gods to save
the Emperor Caligula who was gravely ill and dying with his bout of
malaria or menengitis. " Oh spare our emperor and I shall give my
life for him!" Much to his dismay Caligula recovered and the first
thing the Emperor said was, "Oh you were the one who spoke so kindly
and offered yourself to the gods for me; well... you'd best get on
with it!"

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23086 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Pompeia Cornelia
>
> Thanks for taking the time to responding .

Pompeia: my pleasure
>
> According to the NR Constitution the Tribunes can veto a Senatus
consulta. It does not matter what issue is being addressed by any of
those items subject to a veto, it only matters that when the "spirit
and/or letter of the Constitution or legally-enacted edicta or
decreta, Senatus Consulta or leges are being violated... " If the
action of the magistrate is legal the Tribune would be hard pressed to
veto it, but if not not.
>
> The Constitution reads:
> Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Five tribunes of the plebs
shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to serve a term lasting
one year. They must all be of the plebeian order, and shall have the
following honors, powers, and obligations:
> 1.. To pronounce intercessio (intercession; a veto) against the
actions of any other magistrate (with the exception of the dictator
and the interrex), Senatus consulta, magisterial edicta, religious
decreta, and leges passed by the comitia when the spirit and/or letter
of this Constitution or legally-enacted edicta or decreta, Senatus
Consulta or leges are being violated thereby;
> I believe I am on solid ground to hold this view.

Pompeia: Yes, you are indeed. It does say Senatus Consulta can be
vetoed. I am just not sure how often the Tribunes would see themselves
in a position to be able to do that. And I did say that Senatus
Consultum couldn't be votoed in my last text, which is totally
erroneous...I'll pick blonde next time I buy my L'oreal' :)
>
> I was more interested in the idea that if something got by a set of
Tribunes , would a following group be within it powers, and duties and
in support of ancient Roman practice of letting a law lapse from
disuse instead of repealing it to veto an action arising from that edict?

Pompeia: I am not sure if I understand you correctly. If a
magistrate used that age old law to justify an action on his part, and
his actions didn't line up with the actual wording of the text of this
lex, which is pursuant to the Constitution, the Tribunes could veto
the 'action'. They cannot veto the age old lex, because it was not
vetoed within the 72 hour parameter, but they can veto actions.

If there is never any using of this law, it would probably just sit
and collect dust.

The only way I can see repealing it is promulgating new legislation to
replace it, and to state in such that it is designed to replace it.
Who could start such legislation? Well, a higher magistrate
representing all comitia. The Tribs can promulgate legislation
pertaining to plebian interests, no?
>
> I said in part:
>
> Romans seldom if ever repelled a law. Their belief in tradition was
to strong. The simply let it laps from disuse. If something got
through that was not quite up to constitutional standards then the
Tribunes could simply veto any action arising from it until it was
changed. You would of course have to have at least three who agreed on
the issue or at least would not veto their colleagues.
>
> For example let us say Magistrate A publishes an edict and the
Tribunes miss something about it they should not have missed and the
72 hours goes by and it is now in effect. Can those same Tribunes now
veto an action arising from that edict. They can not now veto the
edict if self but can they prevent an injustice from taking place now
that they have caught the problem with the law?

Pompeia: Yes, indeed they can, providing such 'injustices' are
against the spirit and letter of the constitution. You as Tribune can
'veto' the 'actions' of any magistrate, whose actions are not pursuant
to the spirit and letter of the constitution.


This gets tricky when it comes to Senatus Consultum which are issued
based on the powers givin it by the constitution. You cannot veto that.
If the Senatus consultum is based on something which is not found to
be constitutional, the Tribunes may veto it within 72 hours, and if
its missed by the Tribunes, any 'action' pursuant to that which is
found to be unconstitutional. But as I said in a post to Cornelius
Sardonicus, I think...I have never seen that happen..I have never seen
since 2000 a Senatus Consultum vetoed . Now if someone wants to
correct me, I could be wrong, but I do not see where.


>
> With a bad edict the time frame is just one year and unless a
magistrate from the following year keeps it it will die at the end of
the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would become subject to
the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see the error that
their predecessor missed and would veto the edict until it was fixed.

Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being adopted otherwise it
is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and subject to
intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of edicta is the Lex
Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium :)
>
> Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes veto such as Senatus
consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by the comitia we have
a few problems. According to those I have talked to in NR the Tribunes
of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the power to veto
anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was passed. Action would
have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a proposed action or
law but not after it was adopted .

Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for the following:
You may veto actions right, according to the NovaRoma Constitution.
If you found that the actions of a magistrate were based on a lex, but
that he was not applying the lex properly in the justification of his
actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto his actions in that
they are against the language of the lex, , in other words, illegally
applying the lex. You are not alone in this scenerio though...he
could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So I understand your
thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I am not sure about
your totally inability to veto something post comitia...you may veto
the unconstitutional misapplication of the legislation.

Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it would be very
important to lobby for repromulgation.

Indeed we do have a few problems when it comes to Senatus Consulta
and Religious decretum...the situations become more complex, and I
think that each case almost has to be examined individually with
respect to intercessio. I'm having difficulty putting legal templates
over these situations and saying 'yes they can be vetoed' or 'no they
can't' because herein the unique circumstances increase.
>
> It is my understanding that once a law is passed or a religious
decreta is issued and gets pasted the 72 hour mark for a veto, you can
never get rid of a bad law or a bad decreta other that by repeal. By
bad I mean unconstitutional in NR. I have also been informed that the
Ancient Romans had no concept of "constitutional law" and as we all
know Rome had no WRITTEN constitution, Nova Roma does and that make us
different.

Pompeia: Agreed. You can just, where you find you can keep
pronouncing intercessio....where you can.
>
> Not better, not worst but different.
>
> If the Tribunes can not prevent an injustice by pronouncing
intercessio on the workings of a edict, Senatus consulta, religious
decreta, and leges after the fact then we need to give serious thought
to requiring that ALL actions of every body we subject to the same
year end expiration that now applies only to magisterial edicts. Or
give the Tribunes the power to fix unconstitutional matters in some way.

Pompeia: Personally I would not be entirely comfortable with this, for
a variety of reasons which would take up an extra page...leges being
'missed' in reinstatement, dropped when they are perfectly good but in
the eyes of the next guy, so to speak, they are not feasible or
'workable'...it relies too heavily on the knowledge base of the
magistrates...maybe they are not as up on the law as the outgoing
magistrates are....although I see your general concern with respect to
tidying up unconstitutional matters.

I would almost, and I keep saying this, because they're gonna do it
anyway when push comes to shove...rely on the Senate to do
this...'only' under certain conditions, number one being that attempts
to have it repromulgated have failed.

In matters where a lex is presenting itself as an unconstitutional
anomaly (eyesore), and is causing much ambiguity/misinterpretation,
that they give infringement upon macronational laws, major
stuff...that the Senate can issue a Senatus Constultum Ultimum of
sorts without having to appoint a dictator, to remove the said 'eye
sore' off the books. I do not want to see this flippently happening,
but I do not believe the Senate would put themselves in a situation as
this...they are the least likely to do so, of all the bodies in NR, to
be honest.

Could such action be intitiated by the Tribunes perhaps? Indeed, I
think that's very appropriate ...they are a godly magistracy and
guardians of the constitution and the interests of the populace in
this regard.


>
> Unconstitutional acts are no less unconstitutional just because
they are in effect.

Pompeia: yep...

Bene vale,
Po
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Tribunus Plebs
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pompeia_cornelia
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 9:15 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some
Livy stuff on Bacchanalibus
>
>
> ---Salve Honoured Tribune:
>
> I believe this is indeed the way it prevails today.
>
> If I am charged with a crime under the Lex Salicia, and this lex is on
> the books and was never originally vetoed by anyone, including the
> Tribs. The Praetor produces a formula...if the formula does not
> reflect the language of the lex, which is pursuant to the
> constitution, or atleast considered so in theory by virtue of the fact
> it was allowed to pass, said formula is subject to intercessio by the
> Tribunes, subject to prevailing laws on intercessios.
>
> As tribune you may pronounce intercessio against the 'actions' of any
> magistrate, except for the actions of an appointed Dictator or
Interrex.
>
> To me, this does not mean you can veto a Senatus Consultum, as a side
> note. They are Conscript advisors, and I do not think you can veto an
> action against them which is mandated by the constitution.
>
> It says in the Constitution the Senate is in charge of taxes and the
> Senate gives approval/disapproval of prospective official
> Sodalitates...as far as I read (I've never seen either happen) you
> cannot as Tribunes veto actions on taxes, or veto a decision regarding
> a Sodalitates. To change these laws would require a change in the
> constitution and a repromulgation of pertinent legislation....I cannot
> see where you can veto the 'actions' of the Senate.
>
> I hope this is helpful.
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> > Salve Romans
> >
> > There is perhaps another way we could do this. I have been reading
> up on Roman legal traditions and one of them caught my eye. Romans
> seldom if ever repelled a law. Their belief in tradition was to
> strong. The simply let it laps from disuse. If something got through
> that was not quite up to constitutional standards then the Tribunes
> could simply veto any action arising from it until it was changed. You
> would of course have to have at least three who agreed on the issue or
> at least would not veto their colleagues.
> >
> > Just some food for thought.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: A. Apollonius Cordus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 10:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and
> some Livy stuff on Bacchanalibus
> >
> >
> > A. Apollonius Cordus to Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, and
> > to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
> > greetings.
> >
> > Sorry not to have replied earlier - I'm rather at the
> > mercy of university librareis' opening hours for
> > internet access at the moment.
> >
> > You mention the 'Bacchanalian conspiracy', as it's
> > often called, as evidence for a historical power of
> > the senate to supervise and protect the constitution,
> > particularly with respect to religion. That's a rather
> > shaky argument because that particular episode is
> > extremely controversial and most probably represents
> > an anomaly rather than a normal state of affairs. It's
> > questionable whether the senate in fact had any legal
> > power to take the action it took, though such things
> > were not very well defined so it's hard to say
> > anything about it for certain.
> >
> > The problem with using the senate as a constitutional
> > court is this: the senate is designed to be, and
> > cannot but be, a political body. A constitutional
> > court is a judicial body. Political bodies make
> > decisions based on what they consider best and most
> > desirable; judicial bodies make decisions based on
> > legal documents and their interpretations thereof. The
> > skills involved are completely different. To give the
> > senate the power to strike down legislation as
> > unconstitutional would not make the constitution any
> > more effectively protected than it is at present by
> > the tribunes - it would just exchange one for the
> > other, or add one to the other.
> >
> > You write:
> >
> > > Pompeia: I just want to expand on your comment
> > > about giving it the
> > > power to strike down existing law. I don't want
> > > them having a carte
> > > blanche either and that is not what I am blanketly
> > > suggesting. They
> > > ar obliged to act in a consitutional manner too.
> >
> > That's fair enough, but the question arises: if the
> > senate were to fail to act in a constitutional manner,
> > who would have the power to prevent it? No one,
> > because the senate would have the power to decide
> > whether it had acted in an unconstitutional manner.
> > You see the problem?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> > your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23087 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: P.S. to 'Constitutionalist Manifesto' thread
---Who me?

I didnt take it as such.

But thanks,
Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, and
> to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> It has just been pointed out to me that the tone of my
> last message to you was unfairly impatient and
> dismissive. I'm sorry about that, and I hope it
> doesn't prejudice you against my substantive points.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23088 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
M IVL PERVSIANVS G IVL SCAVRO SPD

> It is a matter of fact
> that (a) Berlusconi brought the National Alliance into the
government,

true
> (b) the National Alliance is composed of a substantial number of
leaders and members of the former MSI

yes, but they decided to have a historical cut with the past
abandoning every connections with the Fascist Part. Who disagreed did
not move to AN but to MSI-Fiamma Tricolore. Lately this year some AN
members went away when An leader Fini again marked any kind of link
with the past.
I cannot say about veraciusness their own personal beliefs but about
official positions.

(omissis)
> There is also probably a generational difference here; you are
>three generations removed from WWII, I am barely one....

but we all have here grandparents and parents who told us stories if
the WWI and WWII. Unfortunately we have dead people to remember.

But I'm not absolutely saying that Fascism was not evil or that you
can't say how bad it was or whatever... just I don't think we need to
say (at least not here in NR) Berlusconi has Fascist people among his
staff.

vale bene, amice
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23089 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Salve

Yes, yes we will!!


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Mr Sardonicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:33 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchanalibus


"As tribune you may pronounce intercessio against the 'actions' of
any magistrate, except for the actions of an appointed Dictator or
Interrex."

SHSHSHSHShshshshhs! You're not supposed to tell
everyone...espescially the Tribs. They might actually use it.






Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23090 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: About Italy
SALVETE OMNES

It is my personal hope that every judice about Italian politics will
be considered off-topic from this list since now.
I respect every personal idea and thought, but I think that this is
not the place where these topics have to be discussed.
As my friend Perusianus said, I'm quiet sure that Italians do not want
to hear in this ML judices about their politics. Scaurus just answered
some questions that could be answered privately, in my opinion; I
think we have reached the point where we can stop this discussion.

VALETE
L IUL SULLA




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius Perusianus"
<m_iulius@v...> wrote:
> M IVL PERVSIANVS G IVL SCAVRO SPD
>
> > It is a matter of fact
> > that (a) Berlusconi brought the National Alliance into the
> government,
>
> true
> > (b) the National Alliance is composed of a substantial number of
> leaders and members of the former MSI
>
> yes, but they decided to have a historical cut with the past
> abandoning every connections with the Fascist Part. Who disagreed did
> not move to AN but to MSI-Fiamma Tricolore. Lately this year some AN
> members went away when An leader Fini again marked any kind of link
> with the past.
> I cannot say about veraciusness their own personal beliefs but about
> official positions.
>
> (omissis)
> > There is also probably a generational difference here; you are
> >three generations removed from WWII, I am barely one....
>
> but we all have here grandparents and parents who told us stories if
> the WWI and WWII. Unfortunately we have dead people to remember.
>
> But I'm not absolutely saying that Fascism was not evil or that you
> can't say how bad it was or whatever... just I don't think we need to
> say (at least not here in NR) Berlusconi has Fascist people among his
> staff.
>
> vale bene, amice
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23091 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/4/04 11:41:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mjk@d... writes:
>
> > Are we reading that the right way? I see she could be saying I
> > volunteer to sacrifice Scaurus OR I volunteer to be sacrificed
> > Scaurus. By definition, the ultimate big sacrifice through the
ages
> > has been self-sacrifice. Let's hear what she has to say.
> >
> >
>
> So, Lanius you are saying that this was a declaration of Devoto? And
not a
> mockery of a Pontifice? Interesting thought. It would not be the
first time
> someone sacrificed themselves for Rome's benefit. She better get on
>with it
> then. Rome is watching.

Indeed. I will continue my reply on the BackAlley, a more appropriate
venue to discuss the finer points and details of Fabia Vera's act of
noble self-sacrifice in the name of Concordia.

Vale,

Pal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23092 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
--- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@...> wrote:
> > Pompeia: my pleasure
> >
> >
>
> >
> > With a bad edict the time frame is just one year
> and unless a
> magistrate from the following year keeps it it will
> die at the end of
> the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would
> become subject to
> the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see
> the error that
> their predecessor missed and would veto the edict
> until it was fixed.
>
> Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being
> adopted otherwise it
> is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and
> subject to
> intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of
> edicta is the Lex
> Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium
> :)
> >
> > Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes
> veto such as Senatus
> consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
> the comitia we have
> a few problems. According to those I have talked to
> in NR the Tribunes
> of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the
> power to veto
> anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was
> passed. Action would
> have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a
> proposed action or
> law but not after it was adopted .
>
> Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for
> the following:
> You may veto actions right, according to the
> NovaRoma Constitution.
> If you found that the actions of a magistrate were
> based on a lex, but
> that he was not applying the lex properly in the
> justification of his
> actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto
> his actions in that
> they are against the language of the lex, , in other
> words, illegally
> applying the lex. You are not alone in this
> scenerio though...he
> could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So
> I understand your
> thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I
> am not sure about
> your totally inability to veto something post
> comitia...you may veto
> the unconstitutional misapplication of the
> legislation.
>
> Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it
> would be very
> important to lobby for repromulgation.
>
>

I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
final vote of the Comitiae.

However, the situation in NR is different. The
Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
72 hours after the result of the vote has been
announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
broad that the law doesn't even have to be
unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
constitutional.

I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
least until the Monday following
approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
all so privileged as to be able to have
Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.

Lucius Quintius Constantius




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23093 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
---Salvete L. Quintius et Omnes:

I am with you in that we must go by Nova Roma law, although the
capacities of the Ancient Tribunes are certainly worth entertaining,
the final analysis is that there are still differences between Nova
Roman law and the Laws of Antiquita and the former must be considered
with respect to Tribune powers. As traditional as we would like to
remain where possible, there will always be differences.

Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the constitution, the
Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of the constitution as
its criteria for intercessio, no?

Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the 'actions' of a
Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate, or to nix the
current schedule in favour of a new one, for some odd reason? They
must follow constitutional parameters...they simply cannot veto it for
reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not fair'...

And with respect to the Tribune veto...it was actually only 48 hours
at one time, and it was increased to 72 hours on the very reasoning
you are giving us. As for revisiting it, I think that's a good idea.
This is not the only job of the Tribunes, it is coupled with
macronational obligations. And, I believe the 'would like' of the
original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma, in
keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?

I am enjoying these threads tremendously, by the way.

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > Pompeia: my pleasure
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > With a bad edict the time frame is just one year
> > and unless a
> > magistrate from the following year keeps it it will
> > die at the end of
> > the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would
> > become subject to
> > the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see
> > the error that
> > their predecessor missed and would veto the edict
> > until it was fixed.
> >
> > Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being
> > adopted otherwise it
> > is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and
> > subject to
> > intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of
> > edicta is the Lex
> > Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium
> > :)
> > >
> > > Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes
> > veto such as Senatus
> > consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
> > the comitia we have
> > a few problems. According to those I have talked to
> > in NR the Tribunes
> > of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the
> > power to veto
> > anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was
> > passed. Action would
> > have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a
> > proposed action or
> > law but not after it was adopted .
> >
> > Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for
> > the following:
> > You may veto actions right, according to the
> > NovaRoma Constitution.
> > If you found that the actions of a magistrate were
> > based on a lex, but
> > that he was not applying the lex properly in the
> > justification of his
> > actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto
> > his actions in that
> > they are against the language of the lex, , in other
> > words, illegally
> > applying the lex. You are not alone in this
> > scenerio though...he
> > could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So
> > I understand your
> > thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I
> > am not sure about
> > your totally inability to veto something post
> > comitia...you may veto
> > the unconstitutional misapplication of the
> > legislation.
> >
> > Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it
> > would be very
> > important to lobby for repromulgation.
> >
> >
>
> I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
> the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
> could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
> final vote of the Comitiae.
>
> However, the situation in NR is different. The
> Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
> to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
> to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
> it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
> wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> constitutional.
>
> I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
> the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
> solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
> least until the Monday following
> approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
> review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
> all so privileged as to be able to have
> Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23094 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Salvete Palladi et Laenas,

I couldn't help to remind you that cemetaries are full of people that
couldn't be spared. but hey, the show did go on ;-)

Laureatus




In a message dated 05/05/04 15:29:15 GMT Daylight Time, ksterne@...
writes:

>
> >
> >Since you're offering up volunteers, why not try a little self-
> >sacrifice, Fabia? We can't spare Scaurus...
> >
> >
> >Palladius<<
>
>
> Sometimes a "me-too" post is unavoidable. I wholeheartedly agree
> with Palladius and the sooner the better.
>
> Gaius Popillius Laenas



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23095 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
Salve,

L. Arminius Faustus ex officio,

And most important than all, a unconstitutional proposal should
receive veto on the own Contio, to preserve the Comitia (and the
Cista/Rogatores/citizens) of useless votes.

The big problem should be a veto of a veto. Tribune A vetoes because
he things unconstitutional, Tribune B vetoes the veto because he
proves it is constitutional indeed. Tribune A does not agree, Tribune
B does not agree the disagreement and so...

But vetoing unconstitutional things is easy. Big mistakes shows
themselves easily.

Difficult would be vetoing stupid proposals, useless proposals.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis

> I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
> the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
> could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
> final vote of the Comitiae.
>
> However, the situation in NR is different. The
> Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
> to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
> to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
> it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
> wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> constitutional.
>
> I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
> the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
> solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
> least until the Monday following
> approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
> review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
> all so privileged as to be able to have
> Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23096 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Thanks!
Your document is attached.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23097 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: What gave Ancient Tribunes power - (Re: Constitutionalist Manifest
Salve,

Ex officio, as ever,

What gave the Ancient Tribunes Power (the Tribunitia Potestas, a kind
of Different Potestas of a current magistrate)

I. Sacrosainct - If the Tribune wanted to release a citizen of
arrest, the lictor could not pass/remove/pull/push/beat the body of
the Tribune to arrest the citizen, without be guilt of death and
sacrilege.

II. Plebis´ Support - Since the Plebis was 99,999% of roman
population, a very volatile mob indeed, dealing with its leaders
would require extreme caution.

III. Conscription - Since the Tribune could release a citizen of
being arrested by any magistrate, like a consul, the Plebis could
deny being conscripted on the army. If the consul orders
conscription, and arrest citizens denying it, the Tribune could
release anyone. The patricians were really afraid to be without an
army!

IV. Fines on consulares, judgement on the Comitia Populi - Since the
Tribune were untouchable and had the Plebis good will, they could
judge and fine the consulares at their will on the Comitia.

V. Veto of anything - The Tribune without explanation could even veto
a consular election called by the interrex.

VI. Speeching on the Senate - In fact, the Tribune couldn´t sit on
the Senate. But, if a sacrosainct guy entered on the Senate, who
would dare to remove him? So, the Tribunes have entered wherever they
wanted.

What took away the power of the Tribunes - By the words I´ve written,
it seems the Tribunes were most powerful. But we weren´t. I show why:

I. Tribunitian treason

The patricians always managed to have some Tribunes in their side, so
a tribune, protected and bribed by the patricians, could veto a law
on the Comitia against them. Tribune L. Sextius had so many vetos
from Tribunes ´patricians´ against his agrarian laws, that he took
revenge vetoing the next consular elections, until receive from the
patricians garantees they would have ´fair play´ on the Comitia.

II. Body attached power

The power of the Tribune was throught his body. So, if the Tribune
wasn´t on the place, he couldn´t exercise his power (that is because
the Tribune house must have 24h an open door). Rome was big enough to
him walk evryplace. And most times, the own Tribunes´ lifes were
threatened to stay them home.

III. THE ENEMY!

There was many times the tribunes couldn´t veto the conscription. The
enemy was in the very gates of Rome, so it would be a suicide.

IV. The losing of the Religio Fear

People naturally lost the fear of the Religio, so it was common the
cases of Tribunes murdered.

V. The patrician partisans and clientes on the Plebis

The own patricians had prestige enough to change the results of the
Comitia Populi and Plebis to gather votes for their side.

V. Confusion on the Comitia

The patricians have sent many people just to make turmoil and unrest
during the Comitia, making nothing be voted on the confusion.


Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> ---Salvete L. Quintius et Omnes:
>
> I am with you in that we must go by Nova Roma law, although the
> capacities of the Ancient Tribunes are certainly worth entertaining,
> the final analysis is that there are still differences between Nova
> Roman law and the Laws of Antiquita and the former must be
considered
> with respect to Tribune powers. As traditional as we would like to
> remain where possible, there will always be differences.
>
> Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the constitution, the
> Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of the constitution
as
> its criteria for intercessio, no?
>
> Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the 'actions' of a
> Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate, or to nix the
> current schedule in favour of a new one, for some odd reason? They
> must follow constitutional parameters...they simply cannot veto it
for
> reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not fair'...
>
> And with respect to the Tribune veto...it was actually only 48 hours
> at one time, and it was increased to 72 hours on the very reasoning
> you are giving us. As for revisiting it, I think that's a good
idea.
> This is not the only job of the Tribunes, it is coupled with
> macronational obligations. And, I believe the 'would like' of the
> original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
> complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma, in
> keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?
>
> I am enjoying these threads tremendously, by the way.
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > > Pompeia: my pleasure
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > With a bad edict the time frame is just one year
> > > and unless a
> > > magistrate from the following year keeps it it will
> > > die at the end of
> > > the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would
> > > become subject to
> > > the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see
> > > the error that
> > > their predecessor missed and would veto the edict
> > > until it was fixed.
> > >
> > > Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being
> > > adopted otherwise it
> > > is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and
> > > subject to
> > > intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of
> > > edicta is the Lex
> > > Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium
> > > :)
> > > >
> > > > Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes
> > > veto such as Senatus
> > > consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
> > > the comitia we have
> > > a few problems. According to those I have talked to
> > > in NR the Tribunes
> > > of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the
> > > power to veto
> > > anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was
> > > passed. Action would
> > > have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a
> > > proposed action or
> > > law but not after it was adopted .
> > >
> > > Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for
> > > the following:
> > > You may veto actions right, according to the
> > > NovaRoma Constitution.
> > > If you found that the actions of a magistrate were
> > > based on a lex, but
> > > that he was not applying the lex properly in the
> > > justification of his
> > > actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto
> > > his actions in that
> > > they are against the language of the lex, , in other
> > > words, illegally
> > > applying the lex. You are not alone in this
> > > scenerio though...he
> > > could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So
> > > I understand your
> > > thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I
> > > am not sure about
> > > your totally inability to veto something post
> > > comitia...you may veto
> > > the unconstitutional misapplication of the
> > > legislation.
> > >
> > > Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it
> > > would be very
> > > important to lobby for repromulgation.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
> > the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
> > could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
> > final vote of the Comitiae.
> >
> > However, the situation in NR is different. The
> > Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
> > to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
> > to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
> > it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> > 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> > announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> > broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> > unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
> > wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> > previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> > constitutional.
> >
> > I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> > revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> > Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> > legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> > or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
> > the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
> > solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
> > least until the Monday following
> > approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
> > review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
> > all so privileged as to be able to have
> > Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.
> >
> > Lucius Quintius Constantius
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23098 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: However, the view of an ancient patricians - (What gave Ancient Tri
Salve,

Oh, cruel and covetous patricians!

However, now allow me to enter on their mind. Or leftist views of
History sometimes prevents us to really understand the Ancient mind.

Now I am a Ancient Patrician - perhaps a Fabius, Quincius, Aemilius,
Claudius, Furius... a very conservative one...

<speech starts>

My family has founded the urbs. We know our ancestors. We offer them
on our family tomb and lararium all the right sacrifices, we
celebrates the feasts of our gens and curia. The gods knows us. We
are members of the people of Rome, we participate of the lustrum, and
participate of all ceremonies for the gods of the urbs, to keep the
pax deorum. Our paterfamilias intercedes and prays to our gods by all
or clientes, by all our slaves, and we admit as clientes anyone who
needs our protection and the protection of our gods.

We go to war and fight. We arm ourselves with our own costs, to
defend the gods and fasces of the Res Publica. We buy horses, swords,
saius, pilum, loricas, everything at our own costs. We help the
magistrates to lead the army. We take on our own body the injuries
and iron of the enemy.

We goes to the Senate. Our family members have Senate seats, they
discuss the problems of the Res Publica, they share the worries of
the government, they have experience to share with the youngers. Tehy
follow the cursum honorum, serving the Res Publica as quaestor,
praetor and consul. We have many consulships and consulares on the
family. We hold as magistrates ceremonies for the gods and wars for
Rome. We have many priesthoods and augurships as well.

We defend our clientes on the judgment, we defend them under the
roman law. We keep the lands productive, we generates revenue to the
state, we pay taxes. We keep the clientes working on our lands and
raise our children on the tradition of the mos maiorum and on the
public virtues. We respect the authority of the consules and their
maiestas. We keep the Liberty of the Res Publica and have fought the
Tyranny of the past kings.

And now... these... plebeians with their Tribunes and Aediles comes
with all stuff!

The plebeians have not gentes, they have no ancestors, bunch of
foreigners, free slaves and bastard sons. They are not roman people
of the quirites. They are not under protection of the gods of a gens,
of a right patrician lararium.

They do not follow the rituals for worshipping the state gods. They
do not have gentes, do not have curias and are on new tribes. They
worship not a real lararium, but public cults of neighboorhoods. They
do not know the sacred law, neither can take auspices to hold the
curule magistratures. They are not bound to a right patrician family
by beeing clientes.

They do not have how to arm themselves for war, just giving children,
proletarii, making weak soldiers on our legions, although giving
manpower.

And know... they and their ´sacrossainct´ Tribunes can piss on the
Majesty of the Imperium of the consules, a angry mob threatening
ourselves, wanting more and more land and powers they cannot hold by
the Religio of the Ancestors

Now on Rome we have two states. The right Rome of Romulus, the sacred
city of the patricians and the Poemerium, lead by the right
magistrates, the consules. And the bunch of the Aventine, lead by
their ´magistrates´ the Tribunes and Aediles! Running rampant
throught the urbs, this vicious mob do not fear the gods! And they
desire consulship! Oh, gens_less people, wanting to take the sacred
auspices of a consul! This is enough! We escaped of the Tyrany of
Tarquinius to fall under the tyrany of the veto of these untouchable
Tribunes?! Oh, gods, put a break on their arrogance!

But the latins, the equi, the volschi, the etruscans... they give us
no rest... we need the plebs to make our army. And they know we need
them...

I pray to Concordia Publica to keep the Plebs calm, and Rome growing
even more.

<speech ends>

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Ex officio, as ever,
>
> What gave the Ancient Tribunes Power (the Tribunitia Potestas, a
kind
> of Different Potestas of a current magistrate)
>
> I. Sacrosainct - If the Tribune wanted to release a citizen of
> arrest, the lictor could not pass/remove/pull/push/beat the body of
> the Tribune to arrest the citizen, without be guilt of death and
> sacrilege.
>
> II. Plebis´ Support - Since the Plebis was 99,999% of roman
> population, a very volatile mob indeed, dealing with its leaders
> would require extreme caution.
>
> III. Conscription - Since the Tribune could release a citizen of
> being arrested by any magistrate, like a consul, the Plebis could
> deny being conscripted on the army. If the consul orders
> conscription, and arrest citizens denying it, the Tribune could
> release anyone. The patricians were really afraid to be without an
> army!
>
> IV. Fines on consulares, judgement on the Comitia Populi - Since
the
> Tribune were untouchable and had the Plebis good will, they could
> judge and fine the consulares at their will on the Comitia.
>
> V. Veto of anything - The Tribune without explanation could even
veto
> a consular election called by the interrex.
>
> VI. Speeching on the Senate - In fact, the Tribune couldn´t sit on
> the Senate. But, if a sacrosainct guy entered on the Senate, who
> would dare to remove him? So, the Tribunes have entered wherever
they
> wanted.
>
> What took away the power of the Tribunes - By the words I´ve
written,
> it seems the Tribunes were most powerful. But we weren´t. I show
why:
>
> I. Tribunitian treason
>
> The patricians always managed to have some Tribunes in their side,
so
> a tribune, protected and bribed by the patricians, could veto a law
> on the Comitia against them. Tribune L. Sextius had so many vetos
> from Tribunes ´patricians´ against his agrarian laws, that he took
> revenge vetoing the next consular elections, until receive from the
> patricians garantees they would have ´fair play´ on the Comitia.
>
> II. Body attached power
>
> The power of the Tribune was throught his body. So, if the Tribune
> wasn´t on the place, he couldn´t exercise his power (that is
because
> the Tribune house must have 24h an open door). Rome was big enough
to
> him walk evryplace. And most times, the own Tribunes´ lifes were
> threatened to stay them home.
>
> III. THE ENEMY!
>
> There was many times the tribunes couldn´t veto the conscription.
The
> enemy was in the very gates of Rome, so it would be a suicide.
>
> IV. The losing of the Religio Fear
>
> People naturally lost the fear of the Religio, so it was common the
> cases of Tribunes murdered.
>
> V. The patrician partisans and clientes on the Plebis
>
> The own patricians had prestige enough to change the results of the
> Comitia Populi and Plebis to gather votes for their side.
>
> V. Confusion on the Comitia
>
> The patricians have sent many people just to make turmoil and
unrest
> during the Comitia, making nothing be voted on the confusion.
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
> <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > ---Salvete L. Quintius et Omnes:
> >
> > I am with you in that we must go by Nova Roma law, although the
> > capacities of the Ancient Tribunes are certainly worth
entertaining,
> > the final analysis is that there are still differences between
Nova
> > Roman law and the Laws of Antiquita and the former must be
> considered
> > with respect to Tribune powers. As traditional as we would like to
> > remain where possible, there will always be differences.
> >
> > Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the constitution,
the
> > Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of the
constitution
> as
> > its criteria for intercessio, no?
> >
> > Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the 'actions' of a
> > Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate, or to nix the
> > current schedule in favour of a new one, for some odd reason?
They
> > must follow constitutional parameters...they simply cannot veto
it
> for
> > reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not fair'...
> >
> > And with respect to the Tribune veto...it was actually only 48
hours
> > at one time, and it was increased to 72 hours on the very
reasoning
> > you are giving us. As for revisiting it, I think that's a good
> idea.
> > This is not the only job of the Tribunes, it is coupled with
> > macronational obligations. And, I believe the 'would like' of the
> > original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
> > complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma,
in
> > keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?
> >
> > I am enjoying these threads tremendously, by the way.
> >
> > Pompeia
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > > > Pompeia: my pleasure
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > With a bad edict the time frame is just one year
> > > > and unless a
> > > > magistrate from the following year keeps it it will
> > > > die at the end of
> > > > the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would
> > > > become subject to
> > > > the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see
> > > > the error that
> > > > their predecessor missed and would veto the edict
> > > > until it was fixed.
> > > >
> > > > Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being
> > > > adopted otherwise it
> > > > is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and
> > > > subject to
> > > > intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of
> > > > edicta is the Lex
> > > > Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium
> > > > :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes
> > > > veto such as Senatus
> > > > consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
> > > > the comitia we have
> > > > a few problems. According to those I have talked to
> > > > in NR the Tribunes
> > > > of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the
> > > > power to veto
> > > > anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was
> > > > passed. Action would
> > > > have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a
> > > > proposed action or
> > > > law but not after it was adopted .
> > > >
> > > > Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for
> > > > the following:
> > > > You may veto actions right, according to the
> > > > NovaRoma Constitution.
> > > > If you found that the actions of a magistrate were
> > > > based on a lex, but
> > > > that he was not applying the lex properly in the
> > > > justification of his
> > > > actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto
> > > > his actions in that
> > > > they are against the language of the lex, , in other
> > > > words, illegally
> > > > applying the lex. You are not alone in this
> > > > scenerio though...he
> > > > could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So
> > > > I understand your
> > > > thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I
> > > > am not sure about
> > > > your totally inability to veto something post
> > > > comitia...you may veto
> > > > the unconstitutional misapplication of the
> > > > legislation.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it
> > > > would be very
> > > > important to lobby for repromulgation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
> > > the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
> > > could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
> > > final vote of the Comitiae.
> > >
> > > However, the situation in NR is different. The
> > > Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
> > > to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
> > > to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
> > > it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> > > 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> > > announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> > > broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> > > unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
> > > wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> > > previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> > > constitutional.
> > >
> > > I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> > > revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> > > Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> > > legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> > > or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
> > > the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
> > > solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
> > > least until the Monday following
> > > approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
> > > review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
> > > all so privileged as to be able to have
> > > Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.
> > >
> > > Lucius Quintius Constantius
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23099 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... Pontiff Scaurus* Read R: [Nov
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Pompeiae Corneliae Straboni salutem dicit.

P. Cornelia Pontifex Gnae Iuli Scaure s.p.d.:


>
> Salve, Pompeia Cornelia.
>
> > But it is a loose, yet serviceable example of how the Senate might
> >have to act if the Tribunes were stuck...legally, they couldn't even
> >veto the actions of Scaurus sacrifice, because said persons are not
> >magistrates...I didn't say they were magistrates. The Senate, who is
> >the laison to the macronational world and the Board of Directors of
> >Nova Roma would be the ones to take the helm on this one.
> >
>
> As the "victim" of this hypothetical sacrifice and the author of
> decretum on animal sacrifice, I have a few remarks to make. You are
> making a reductio ad absurdam argument which ignores the plain text of
> the decretum and seeks to impute reality to a fantasy.

Pompeia: An absurdity, not a fantacy, a remote absurdity, as absurd
as you ever being in such a scenerio, postulated for the purposes of
legal discussion, which I have been engaged in off and on recently.

If I thought there would be the remotest change you would be herded
off to New Guinae to be canabolized, or someplace barely acknowledged
in Africa, I wouldn't be typing all of this, I would be calling the
police, as would several others in NR, including the Senate.

The novelty of said sacrifice presented the opportunity for me to use
an absurd but serviceable I think I said, example.
>
> >Further, this is the difficulty with neutral legislation, and please
> >Pontiffs, don't get upset over this one. You have written a piece of
> >legislation which states that you will not at this point hold public
> >sacrifice as a religious body in Nova Roma...you, in my opinion should
> >have stopped there.
> >
Pompeia: That is an opinion, not so much to upset you over the
wording of the decretum, which within the parameters of reasonability
is just fine, but that sometimes we can put more in our legislation
than we should, from a legal standpoint. What you folks do within the
religio is totally up to you, as long as it doesn't malalign
macronational law, which it doesn't, unless you want to stretch things
to the max like me, to prove a point. I could have told a story about
chariots or something, but it wouldn't have had the application, even
in absurdity....


>
> You are, frankly, displaying an inability to parse the plain text of
the
> decretum and uttterly fail to understand its context. The decretum
> _did_ authorise priests of the Religio Publica to offer animal
sacrifice
> in the caerimonia of the Religio at their discretion and subject to a
> set of rules; it also indicated that no priest of the Religio Publica
> was _required_ to perform such a sacrifice. The intent was to offer a
> compromise which created a big enough tent, as it were, to contain all
> practitioners of the Religio within it by excluding no one
regardless of
> personal attitude toward animal sacrifice. The objective was to avoid
> schisms and irreconcilable splits among practitioners of the Religio on
> the issue. I do not believe that you, as a non-practitioner, have a
> sufficient knowledge of the range and intensity of opinion with the
> Roman Reconstructionist polytheist community to have a considered
> judgment on the varying currents of opinion with which the Collegium
was
> attempting to deal and the importance of preserving the widest possible
> range of opinion consistent with the mos maiorum and the Religio's
basis
> in orthopraxis. We had considerable input from a wide range of that
> opinion and I attempted to construct a compromise which embraced as
much
> of it as possible.

Pompeia: In short, I presented a very silly example, and I have
already reiterated my reasons. For the record:

I have no problem with this decretum. I do not see that it will
present a problem as long as common sense is utilized. My point in
presenting it was to illustrate that if the leges, decreta, etc. are
'milked to the max' who will cut to the quick and pull the plug on
them, absolving Nova Roma from such problems, and protecting her
macronational status? The Senate.
>
> >The rest of the decretum is extraneous, in that such is already
> >provided for....anyone can sacrifice an animal according to
> >macronational law...what type of animal, whose macronational law... so
> > NR is set up for potential macronational 'trouble' by saying too
much...
> >
>
> You would prefer sacrifices without rules, without humane slaughter,
> without observance of the mos maiorum, without compliance with
> macronational law? If animal sacrifices are to be permitted in the
> Religio Publica, and that is the preference of a substantial portion of
> the practitioner community, then they must be regularised in compliance
> with the Collegium's decretum. To fail to provide such rules would
have
> been extremely irresponsible. I am not going to put any faction of
> practitioners in the position of having to leave Nova Roma as a matter
> of conscience over the issue of animal sacrifice -- and that was
> precisely the direction in which things were moving when the Collegium
> resolved the matter with a latitudinarian compromise.

Pompeia: See above

If
> non-practitioners choose to leave as a result of a decision of the
> Collegium, that would be unfortunate, but it is not, nor should it
be, a
> primary concern for the Collegium Pontificum which is charged with
> regulating the practice of the state religion. The fact that some
> citizens do not practice the state religion is not a reason for the
> Collegium to ignore its primary responsibility to sustain and encourage
> maximum participation of practitioners in the state religion and to
> provide proper direction for orthopraxis. We do not tell Catholics or
> Lutherans or Buddhists how to practise their faiths. We do, as
> pontifices, have a responsibility to ensure that Roman
Reconstructionist
> polytheism remains a permanent, central activity of Nova Roma, since it
> is the state religion of Nova Roma, and that includes devising
> compromises which avoid schisms within the practitioner community and
> setting rules for appropriate performance of rituals.

Pompeia: I do not tell Catholics, Lutherans, Buddhists, Jews, Wiccans
Religio Practitioners what to do either. I do not stuff the collegium
mailbox with 'suggestions from Po on how they could do it better'.
I have no disrespect toward the Religio whatsoever. I believe in the
right of any man to choose his own spiritual path, as long as his
actions do not afflict harm on others. I think your recent decretum
was a good compromise considering that, indeed, we do not posess a
forum to do an official public sacrifice of an animal.

As far as decreeing that priests are free to do so, within constraints
of their macronational law, this is fine too, although they are 'free'
to do so anyway, should they choose. A little extraneous, imo, but
not anything that will cause a large problem, in this case, but in
cases other than this decretum, it might.

I've never really had much opportunity to express what thoughts I do
have, and I hope this isn't going to make you even more angry,but I
have difficulty seeing where in Roman Republica Antiquita , despite
the great depth of religio permeation into the culture, etc. of Rome,
that she was ever a Theocracy. I think she entertained an important
and integral relationship with her priests, flamens, etc. heeding
their guidance, but that is not to say that she was Theocratic per se,
ie 'a country run by a small number of priests'.

I think, from my personal view and this is not telling you what to do,
but such would effect all citizens, that, even if all nonpractitioners
were to leave, for one reason or another, I don't think the
practitioners would cope well with a theocratically based
collegium/religio. I think they would feel too constricted to the
point where they wouldn't feel comfortable, and go other places, or
form their own place. This could leave Nova Roma with a handful of
remaining practitioners. It is whatever the goal is. What needs to be
kept in mind, also, is that Nova Roma is a voluntary organization.

I know the Religio is the focal point...it has to be..how can you
celebrate Roman history, culture, military without comprehending the
incredible relationship she had with her Gods, both on a private and
public level.? Although I don't practise the Religio, I am intrigued
and fascinated by this, and can truly appreciate these elements.

It was a spoof to argue a point of law as reiterated above, not the
elements of the religio, the Religio's right to supremecy in NR...if
its absurdity fell on its gluteus, I'm sorry.




>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23100 From: lovelyone49 Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: The Men Who Killed Caesar
Could anyone share with me what became of each of the men who killed
Julius Caesar? And could anyone share with me about the dream his
wife had before his death?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23101 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Salvete omnes

I feel we are rapidly in danger of playing the role of the child
that lies in bed at night, who hears a rustle, becomes convinced
that it is coming from under his bed, then convinces himself that it
is a monster that is going to rear up from the depths and gobble him
up. Before to long this child gets locked into a state of delusional
paranoia that ends in a very wet bed.

I mentioned on the ML earlier that to me constitutions are hardly
worth the paper they are written on. Rome didn't have a
constitution. Do we need one? If we actually could reconstruct a
working mos maiorum then of course we wouldn't. So we have one now.
I prefer to think of this as a stop-gap measure until we all
become "Roman" enough (as a community - not individually) to render
the constituition obsolete.

What was the mos maiorum anyway but a set of standards, some written
some unwritten, set by those in power. I wait to be corrected but my
understanding is that essentially essentially a small elite – the
senate and other notables, constructed the vast majority of the mos
maiorum. We ALL in Nova Roma now have the opportunity to contribute
to the reconstruction of this – if we choose. We can instead
concentrate on flying kites about needing this law or that law. Some
laws are needed of course, but what is needed more is a sense of
what our mos maiorum is. I prefer to think that as a community we
can help develop the one part of reconstruction that is free and
which can be built now.

I repeat from my earlier post, we can legislate all day long. It
won't provide one whit of protection from the monster under the bed,
because that monster is being in large part created through
suspicion. We are essentially willing this creature to come alive,
and if we carry on like this that is exactly what will happen. That
monster is essentially "us" collectively. Please no one email all in
a huff that I have painted him or her with this brush, as I repeat I
am speaking in the sense of a community.

After a 1700 year or so gap, we don't have those customs inherent in
the mos maiorum ingrained in us (collectively), because if we did
that would have obviated much of what has transpired on this board
recently in this thread and others in the same vein. Just wishing
that we did have that ingrained won't work either. However we can
individually and collectively choose to do our best to reach a stage
where we have enough "standards" that we don't need a constitution.
A law/constitution is worth nothing, if people choose not to follow
it. Even if they do obey a law it can never have the same strength
as a sense of tradition and social boundaries over which we don't
step.

We could try to reconstruct a mos maiorum through legislation, and
maybe we'd do a pretty good job at it, but unless there is the will
to follow it what is the point? So what goes into the mos maiorum?
That is the key question. Everyone can have different views but if
reconstruction is to mean just that, then those views have to
operate within certain parameters. We can then argue about what
those are, and how applicable they are today. Well I'll take a stab
at the easier question, and answer by way of what I don't think they
are.

I personally don't think those parameters should include any device,
law or otherwise that in any way nullifies the structure of Roman
governance. That includes such, in my mind, Frankenstein like
creations as constitutional courts. I am satisfied that Rome
prospered through a combination of national spirit and character
combined with a sound system of governance. That inevitably means
that this system will not echo what people term the "democratic"
structures of today. What is democracy anyway?

I suppose that invites someone to stand up (in a virtual sense) and
say "Caesar what are you talking about? We can vote governments in
and out!!" I would have to reply "Oh really? Are you telling me that
in a system where only main stream political parties, fielding
political candidates chosen by either small elites or internal party
mechanisms have a chance of success (though huge campaign funds that
overwhelm small independents) that the voter gets a `real' choice?"

This is representative democracy of course where your vote counts
for one day (in theory and a pretty tatty one at that), where you
get to choose (in some countries) a set of candidates chosen by a
small local cabal of 30 active political party members (I was both
candidate and part of the cabal so I know exactly how the system
works). Then when you take into account social, economic, workplace
conditioning your freedom to choose from such a small list of
candidates is reduced even further. Finally having reduced the scope
of choice through the "democratic" system, some people reduce it
further and might as well send their dog to vote for all the effort
and care they put into the process. While that is their "democratic"
right to be indifferent and obtuse, don't tell me that this is a
system par-excellence.

So why are we so shy of embracing Roman style government where there
is a more obvious, and I would say honest, exercise of power by a
limited number of people? At least the system Rome had and in some
part we have here isn't as fundamentally dishonest in trying to
hoodwink people, for in the macro world once they have elected their
MP, Senator – whatever – that person then promptly follows his/her
own course and simply, when challenged, says "I have to vote
according to my judgement". Well somewhere along the line the
representative part fell off the wagon as it rumbled merrily off to
five years of expense accounts and junkets at the taxpayers expense.
Here at least those that exercise "power" are a darned sight more
accessible and accountable through this board and threats of legal
actions etc. etc. than ever your MP, Senator – whatever – is.

At some point we all have to take a leap of faith in macro world,
and place an element of trust in the system or we go off to the
mountains live in a hut and shout, "bah humbug" at the world below.
Here in NR we have the luxury to design our own system, but the
danger is that in an effort to build in safeguards, we put together
some abomination of a monster that ceases to have any Roman
qualities about it. We can put it in a toga, name it Imperator
Constitution, shove the electricity into and bring it to life and
watch it lurch around. Much like the Emperor with no clothes, we can
then sit back contentedly and say "Ahhh how Roman it is, well sort
of, well isn't that bit there a Roman?" Of course the most Roman
thing about it will be the toga.

Somewhere don't we all have to say "In order to reconstruct Rome we
may have to create structures and allow them the historic role they
had, which may run contrary to all our conditioning about
what "democracy" is? In essence we have to have the courage of our
convictions that Rome got it right, that when Rome fell we plunged
as a world into the dark ages. I am not sure we ever caught up – in
fact I feel we never did.

I am not even going to touch on whether Rome revolved around the
Religio as it so obviously did. If you want to reconstruct Rome, the
Religio is there front and centre. Romans invoked the Gods on
numerous aspects of their lives. To fiddle and diddle with this and
trim it or chop bits off is to create that Frankenstein's monster.
The Religio is the State religion. Beginning and end of debate.
Without that central premise we move away from reconstruction into
selective creation – that's what Dr. Frankenstein did. Bits hacked
off old bodies, none of which fitted, all cobbled together with some
pretty sub-standard stitching.

I am confident that if our spiritual forefathers could make the
system work, then we can, but only if we have the courage to pick up
the torch they dropped and run with it.

Someone said on one of the threads that in a real setting (and I am
paraphrasing) that if there was injustice in Rome, there was a
threat of revolt. Well here that is called resignations, so it is
incorrect to say that the people don't have that sanction
of "revolt", because they can elect to "revolt" by leaving. I have
equally read that this has never happened, so either there never was
that massive sense of injustice or everyone here doesn't have any
willpower or life outside of Nova Roma and are held captive here
through the paucity of their own macro existence. I really hope I
didn't become a citizen alongside people who have no mind of their
own, so I have to conclude there has been no "substantive" injustice.

So in closing I would like to point out that in order to reconstruct
that Romanitas, we first need a sense of commitment that we are
prepared to shed, just here citizens – not in your homes or work
(don't panic!), just here, 1700 years or so of conditioning that has
led us to believe that a system of governance here somehow has to
ape the macro world. It doesn't. It shouldn't. It can't – for then
all we have done is created that monster under the bed. We have
become Dr. Frankenstein.

I am electing not to fall into that state of paranoia, because I am
too old to believe that the bogey man lives under my bed, because I
have to believe we are all capable of developing common values that
far outstrip in the power they have to constrain actions anything a
lawyer can draft as a law, and also because I don't want to sleep in
a wet bed. Self-imposed incontinence is a very undignified and messy
business.

Vale

Gn. Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23102 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
Salve Congratulations Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, Amice!

Congratulations and a happy birthday!!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23103 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Digest No 1259
L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritbus salutem dicit

Salvete.

Not only is Pontifex Scaurus a tremendous asset to Nova Roma, but he is also
a great person to know. I've spent hours shooting the breeze with him on
various and sundry subjects only to look at the clock and realize how long
we've been talking. I can't wait to meet him in person. I've found that
people are better in person than over the net, even people you don't
particularly care for.
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:32:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@...>
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ*

Salve Fabia Vera,

Scaurus has already sacrificed himself to the Roman Gods albeit in not the
physical way that you
proposed below.

He and he alone has sent emails to this list each and every day for at least
a year with links to
interesting Roman websites. He has gone out of his way as a Pontiff to post
the religious
significance of every minor and major Roman holiday. He alone has written
ritual after ritual for
us. He alone has translated document after document into Latin. He alone has
been the advisor on
law writing for countless magistrates regardless of whether or not he was of
the same political
opinion.

So Fabia Vera, he does not need to be physically sacrificed, since he has
already sacrificed his
time and part of his spirit to the Roman Gods and they have accepted it
whole heartedly and with
the love in which it was given. For all of his endless hard work for the
good of us all, I as well
as many others in Nova Roma salute him.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Sacerdos Veneris

--- "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Avete Quirites;
Eheu, here I have been positively embracing Concordia & look what I
spy on the Main List. Though all know my vegetarian animal-loving
views, I believe that the Populus and the Di Immortales will only be
reconciled and appeased by a really big sacrifice;
and I volunteer Scaurus,

bene valete in pace deorum
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta

________________________________________________________________________

Cincinnatus: Mille gratias tib ago, Aventina.
I was wondering if my post was read by anyone. Of course *I* thought it made
sense, but I'm glad you think so too.

Message: 11
Subject: Re: Debate?

Salve Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur,

You don't post very often but when you do, your arguments are so flawless
that as usual, you leave the mob speechless...

Thank you for bringing clarity to a number of issues!

Vale,
Diana Octavia

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23104 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
---****Happy Birthday to You,
You live up in Thule
Throw off your toga, and drink a brew
Happy B-day to yooooouuuu!

Oh, that was wack, but alas, the best I could do :)

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salve Congratulations Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, Amice!
>
> Congratulations and a happy birthday!!
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Censor, Consularis et Senator
> Proconsul Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23105 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Salvete omnes

I've had to skim the list's digests of late, so I'm not entirely sure who I'm
replying to here. I'm just making points here and there.

> If the Tribunes can not prevent an injustice by pronouncing
> intercessio on the workings of a edict, Senatus consulta, religious
> decreta, and leges after the fact then we need to give serious thought
> to requiring that ALL actions of every body we subject to the same
> year end expiration that now applies only to magisterial edicts. Or
> give the Tribunes the power to fix unconstitutional matters in some way.

Tribuni plebis currently have the power to summon two of the trina comitia.
This allows them to ask the people to repeal the vast majority of Nova Roma's
legislation. In the case of leges passed by the centuriae, senatusconsulta,
and decreta, the tribuni plebis would have to lobby the appropriate authority
to repeal the offensive act of government. Few leges are passed by the
centuriae, the senatus' powers are limited, and the Collegium Pontificum's
religious deliberations should be insulated from being tampered with by elected
officials chosen from a populace which is not necessarily dominated by
followers of the Religio Romana, and which is not necessarily well-educated
about the Religio's various tenets.

> In matters where a lex is presenting itself as an unconstitutional
> anomaly (eyesore), and is causing much ambiguity/misinterpretation,
> that they give infringement upon macronational laws, major
> stuff...that the Senate can issue a Senatus Constultum Ultimum of
> sorts without having to appoint a dictator, to remove the said 'eye
> sore' off the books.

Surely, since the consules must convene the senatus to do this, they would also
be amenable to convening either the Comitia Centuriata or the Comitia Populi
Tributa to remove such an offensive lex through more conventional means? And,
they can countermand nearly any other magistrate's edicta by fiat with an
edictum of their own. The senatus can repeal any of its previous
senatusconsulta already, when convened to do so by a consul.

> Could such action be intitiated by the Tribunes perhaps?

From the senatusconsultum on senatus procedures:
"A tribunus plebis may convene the Senate in order to ask the Senate's advice
on any subject which is clearly within the scope of his constitutionally
mandated powers and obligations."

Note that senatusconsulta are defined by the constitution as the advice of the
senatus.

> The Tribunes could decide that they
> wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> constitutional.

Technically true in the case of leges that have not yet been enacted by the
people (and given a rather formalist reading of the constitution). Otherwise,
the constitution explicitly states that the lex which is most recently enacted
is the one which is considered valid. And, one would hope that the tribunus
who vetoed a lex on those grounds would be countermanded by the rest of the
tribuni unless he was acting for very compelling reasons.

> I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> or promulgation of an edict.

Well, that's one of the reasons why there are five tribuni plebis. One hopes
that, in future, there will eventually be ten of them. Note that the initial
use of intercessio extends the time that the rest of the tribuni have in which
to review the item being vetoed.

> And, I believe the 'would like' of the
> original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
> complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma, in
> keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?

Yes, on both counts.

> ...I have difficulty seeing where in Roman Republica Antiquita , despite
> the great depth of religio permeation into the culture, etc. of Rome,
> that she was ever a Theocracy. I think she entertained an important
> and integral relationship with her priests, flamens, etc. heeding
> their guidance, but that is not to say that she was Theocratic per se,
> ie 'a country run by a small number of priests'.

She was a country in which every paterfamilias was effectively a priest, and in
which the magistrates were, in a religious sense, the patresfamilias of the Res
Publica. The curule magistrates performed the public rituals that maintained
the Pax Deorum on behalf of the entire populace, and therefore were, to a
degree, a form of public priest. Roma Antiqua wasn't a theocracy in the modern
sense of the word, but She was a religious state.

> Salve Congratulations Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, Amice!

Have a very happy birthday, Tite Octavi!

> Not only is Pontifex Scaurus a tremendous asset to Nova Roma, but he is also
> a great person to know. I've spent hours shooting the breeze with him on
> various and sundry subjects only to look at the clock and realize how long
> we've been talking. I can't wait to meet him in person. I've found that
> people are better in person than over the net, even people you don't
> particularly care for.

Iterum in me!

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23106 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@...> wrote:
> Congratulations and a happy birthday!!

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo <scriba_forum@...> wrote:
> ---****Happy Birthday to You,
> You live up in Thule
> Throw off your toga, and drink a brew
> Happy B-day to yooooouuuu!
> Oh, that was wack, but alas, the best I could do :)

Salvete, Cornelia Strabo et Fabi Quintiliane.

Thank you very much for your congratulations, and thank you Pompeia for
the lovely poem...I've celebrated my birthday at home in the company of
some close friends, without togas and with a variety of beverages
imbibed, much as per your suggestion. I stuck to sodas, though some of
the less refined participants preferred tea or even coffee. The horror.

I was trying to get some plugs for Nova Roma in, but unfortunately I was
too busy stuffing my face with the birthday cake to manage to form a
coherent sentence. Instead, the discussion touched on such disquieting
matters as my time in Junior High, including, unfortunately, some
extracurricular activities best left unmentioned. I have come to believe
my friends felt the need to ridicule me amongst themselves due to some
inferiority complexes of theirs.

Not because of my tendency to blush and stutter.

Anyways, now I'm a whole year older, but none the wiser, which leaves me
to question this whole "experience" thing is I keep hearing
about...shouldn't I be getting a piece of that cake, apart from the
cream-covered one I just ate, sometime soon? Or am I doomed to youthful
exuberance and lack of coherence forever? *sigh*

Enough ramblings...I'm quite happy, and by now rather tired, so I'll
leave y'all alone now. Have a nice day, though you probably won't have
one as nice as the one I just had. :)

Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.

--

"Qui desiderat bellum, praeparet bellum." - Vetinari

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS dpu- s:++>: a-- C++>$ UL+ P+ L++ E W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS- PE-- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23107 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-05
Subject: Re: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
---Salve Octavius Pius Birthday Boy:

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> > Congratulations and a happy birthday!!
>
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > ---****Happy Birthday to You,
> > You live up in Thule
> > Throw off your toga, and drink a brew
> > Happy B-day to yooooouuuu!
> > Oh, that was wack, but alas, the best I could do :)
>
> Salvete, Cornelia Strabo et Fabi Quintiliane.
>
> Thank you very much for your congratulations, and thank you Pompeia for
> the lovely poem...

Pompeia: You're welcome, and you just be darned thankful that it
appeared as text, and that I didn't sing it because I have a very
scratchy throat lately :)


I've celebrated my birthday at home in the company of
> some close friends, without togas and with a variety of beverages
> imbibed, much as per your suggestion. I stuck to sodas, though some of
> the less refined participants preferred tea or even coffee. The horror.

Pompeia: What is the world coming to these days?
>
> I was trying to get some plugs for Nova Roma in, but unfortunately I
was
> too busy stuffing my face with the birthday cake to manage to form a
> coherent sentence. Instead, the discussion touched on such disquieting
> matters as my time in Junior High, including, unfortunately, some
> extracurricular activities best left unmentioned.

Pompeia: Oh, come come now, do not be shy! Do tell 'all'...we are
among friends no? And as always, never a 'word' from any of the 600
odd subscribers, no not a word will be breathed :)


I have come to believe
> my friends felt the need to ridicule me amongst themselves due to some
> inferiority complexes of theirs.

Pompeia: Barbarians are like that, they can't resist the temptation
to dupe on our Romanitas.
>
> Not because of my tendency to blush and stutter.

Pompeia: No, "they" blush and stutter internally at the social
challenge of interaction with a Roman...they can't help it, really.
and it leaves you with the feeling that there could possibly be
something wrong with 'you'...this is not so...it is the obverse, most
definitely:)
>
> Anyways, now I'm a whole year older, but none the wiser, which
leaves me
> to question this whole "experience" thing is I keep hearing
> about...shouldn't I be getting a piece of that cake, apart from the
> cream-covered one I just ate, sometime soon? Or am I doomed to youthful
> exuberance and lack of coherence forever? *sigh*

Pompeia: No, it will pass for a time, then it will come back, then
pass, then come back....
>
> Enough ramblings...I'm quite happy, and by now rather tired, so I'll
> leave y'all alone now. Have a nice day, though you probably won't have
> one as nice as the one I just had. :)

Pompeia: No, it doesn't sound like my day went quite as well as
yours, but I'm glad you enjoyed yourself :)

Vale
Po
>
> Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.
>
> --
>
> "Qui desiderat bellum, praeparet bellum." - Vetinari
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS dpu- s:++>: a-- C++>$ UL+ P+ L++ E W++(--) N
> o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS- PE-- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
> R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23108 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
In a message dated 5/5/04 7:54:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjk@...
writes:

> I do not know if it was
> legend but do you remember from I Claudius when that one senator,
> trying to get his brownie points was crying out to the gods to save
> the Emperor Caligula who was gravely ill and dying with his bout of
> malaria or menengitis. " Oh spare our emperor and I shall give my
> life for him!" Much to his dismay Caligula recovered and the first
> thing the Emperor said was, "Oh you were the one who spoke so kindly
> and offered yourself to the gods for me; well... you'd best get on
> with it!"
>
Salve Lani
No, that is right out of Suetonius. And Gaius Drusus Caesar helped him right
along so he would not disappoint the Gods.
Vale
Fabius



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23109 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Salve,

L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis, ex officio,

According to ancient roman tradition, for legislative matters, the
Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi could overrule themselves. So,
by Comitia Populi a Consul or Tribune can shoot down a Lex approved
by Comitia Centuriata.

In fact, on Ancient, 99,999% of the legislative measures were
proposed by the Tribunes to Comitia Populi, and the Comitia
Centuriata was summoned only for magistrate elections. Even the
consules, to propose a lex, like Caesar desired, summoned the Comitia
Populi.

This is a deviation of NR, much or our legislative measures are from
Centuriata, not Populi.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, labienus@n... wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> I've had to skim the list's digests of late, so I'm not entirely
sure who I'm
> replying to here. I'm just making points here and there.
>
> > If the Tribunes can not prevent an injustice by pronouncing
> > intercessio on the workings of a edict, Senatus consulta,
religious
> > decreta, and leges after the fact then we need to give serious
thought
> > to requiring that ALL actions of every body we subject to the same
> > year end expiration that now applies only to magisterial edicts.
Or
> > give the Tribunes the power to fix unconstitutional matters in
some way.
>
> Tribuni plebis currently have the power to summon two of the trina
comitia.
> This allows them to ask the people to repeal the vast majority of
Nova Roma's
> legislation. In the case of leges passed by the centuriae,
senatusconsulta,
> and decreta, the tribuni plebis would have to lobby the appropriate
authority
> to repeal the offensive act of government. Few leges are passed by
the
> centuriae, the senatus' powers are limited, and the Collegium
Pontificum's
> religious deliberations should be insulated from being tampered
with by elected
> officials chosen from a populace which is not necessarily dominated
by
> followers of the Religio Romana, and which is not necessarily well-
educated
> about the Religio's various tenets.
>
> > In matters where a lex is presenting itself as an unconstitutional
> > anomaly (eyesore), and is causing much
ambiguity/misinterpretation,
> > that they give infringement upon macronational laws, major
> > stuff...that the Senate can issue a Senatus Constultum Ultimum of
> > sorts without having to appoint a dictator, to remove the
said 'eye
> > sore' off the books.
>
> Surely, since the consules must convene the senatus to do this,
they would also
> be amenable to convening either the Comitia Centuriata or the
Comitia Populi
> Tributa to remove such an offensive lex through more conventional
means? And,
> they can countermand nearly any other magistrate's edicta by fiat
with an
> edictum of their own. The senatus can repeal any of its previous
> senatusconsulta already, when convened to do so by a consul.
>
> > Could such action be intitiated by the Tribunes perhaps?
>
> From the senatusconsultum on senatus procedures:
> "A tribunus plebis may convene the Senate in order to ask the
Senate's advice
> on any subject which is clearly within the scope of his
constitutionally
> mandated powers and obligations."
>
> Note that senatusconsulta are defined by the constitution as the
advice of the
> senatus.
>
> > The Tribunes could decide that they
> > wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> > previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> > constitutional.
>
> Technically true in the case of leges that have not yet been
enacted by the
> people (and given a rather formalist reading of the constitution).
Otherwise,
> the constitution explicitly states that the lex which is most
recently enacted
> is the one which is considered valid. And, one would hope that the
tribunus
> who vetoed a lex on those grounds would be countermanded by the
rest of the
> tribuni unless he was acting for very compelling reasons.
>
> > I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> > revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> > Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> > legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> > or promulgation of an edict.
>
> Well, that's one of the reasons why there are five tribuni plebis.
One hopes
> that, in future, there will eventually be ten of them. Note that
the initial
> use of intercessio extends the time that the rest of the tribuni
have in which
> to review the item being vetoed.
>
> > And, I believe the 'would like' of the
> > original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
> > complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma,
in
> > keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?
>
> Yes, on both counts.
>
> > ...I have difficulty seeing where in Roman Republica Antiquita ,
despite
> > the great depth of religio permeation into the culture, etc. of
Rome,
> > that she was ever a Theocracy. I think she entertained an
important
> > and integral relationship with her priests, flamens, etc. heeding
> > their guidance, but that is not to say that she was Theocratic
per se,
> > ie 'a country run by a small number of priests'.
>
> She was a country in which every paterfamilias was effectively a
priest, and in
> which the magistrates were, in a religious sense, the
patresfamilias of the Res
> Publica. The curule magistrates performed the public rituals that
maintained
> the Pax Deorum on behalf of the entire populace, and therefore
were, to a
> degree, a form of public priest. Roma Antiqua wasn't a theocracy
in the modern
> sense of the word, but She was a religious state.
>
> > Salve Congratulations Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, Amice!
>
> Have a very happy birthday, Tite Octavi!
>
> > Not only is Pontifex Scaurus a tremendous asset to Nova Roma, but
he is also
> > a great person to know. I've spent hours shooting the breeze with
him on
> > various and sundry subjects only to look at the clock and realize
how long
> > we've been talking. I can't wait to meet him in person. I've
found that
> > people are better in person than over the net, even people you
don't
> > particularly care for.
>
> Iterum in me!
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23110 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Salvete L Armini Fauste Tribune omnesque

> According to ancient roman tradition, for legislative matters, the
> Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi could overrule themselves.

Yes, the ancients followed the same rule that we do: the most recent
lex is the one that matters, regardless of which set of comitia
enacted the leges in question.

> So, by Comitia Populi a Consul or Tribune can shoot down a Lex
> approved by Comitia Centuriata.

This is true so long as that lex is not a constitutional amendment
that's been ratified by the senatus, and has therefore become part of
the constitution. Note also that one set of comitia cannot affect
the internal procedures of the others.

> In fact, on Ancient, 99,999% of the legislative measures were
> proposed by the Tribunes to Comitia Populi,...

Actually, they were proposed by the tribuni plebis to the body Nova
Roma calls the Comitia Plebis Tributa. In antiquity, it was
generally referred to as the Concilium Plebis. The tribuni plebis
could not convene the whole populace.

> ...and the Comitia Centuriata was summoned only for magistrate
> elections. Even the consules, to propose a lex, like Caesar
> desired, summoned the Comitia Populi.

Yes. The tribal assemblies (Comitia Populi Tributa and Comitia
Plebis Tributa) were much easier to handle than the centuriae, and
were therefore the preferred choice. Over time, that preference
became tradition, and therefore part of the mos maiorum.

> This is a deviation of NR, much or our legislative measures are
> from Centuriata, not Populi.

The Tabularium displays 57 leges. Six were passed by the Comitia
Plebis Tributa. Twenty-eight were passed by the Comitia Populi
Tributa. Twenty-three were passed by the Comitia Centuriata, and
eleven of those were constitutional amendments which must be put to
the centuriae. So, yes, we have a fairly large number of leges which
were enacted by the Comitia Centuriata. This is in part because we
have a constitution and in part because only the Comitia Centuriata
can enact leges governing its own procedures..

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23111 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: pridie Nonae Maii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is pridie Nonae Maii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is the Nonae Maii; the day is fastus. On this day the Rex
Sacrorum would announce the regular fixed feriae of the month on the
Nonae by edictum. The Nonae were sacred to Iuno Covella and the
Regina Sacrorum sacrificed to Iuno at the Regia.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23112 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Salve, consular, thanks for your comments

In fact, from my researches, I´ve never seen a deep difference
between Comitia Plebis and Comitia Populi. Most because the Plebis
was 99% of the population, so even on plebiscites for electing
plebeian magistrates, the Comitia was the Comitia Populi, without
votes of patricians (but with the votes of their plebeian clientes,
which turned the balance of the Plebiscites to the patricians many
times... the Comitia Centuriata only elected the first plebeian
consul only after TEN YEARS of approval of plebeian candidates to
consulship. The votes of the patricians on CC couldn´t have changed
the results, but the patrician clientes on the Plebis).

We should reach a compromise therefore to all leges be voted to the
Comitia Populi, instead of Comitia Centuriata. Since the consules can
propose to the Comitia Populi, it is not a problem. And we approaches
more to the uses of the Ancient. Or really enacting the two Comitias
to deal with themselves.

On my next email, I will put something about the Comitia. I adress to
pay attention of the phenomena of losing of the legislative power of
the CC with the time, and the laws passed throught most of plebiscite.

On NR, nowadays, due to the ordo proportion, I a tribune, can call
only the Comitia Populi. Comitia Plebis only to election

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus, ex officio




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Fortunatus" <labienus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete L Armini Fauste Tribune omnesque
>
> > According to ancient roman tradition, for legislative matters,
the
> > Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi could overrule themselves.
>
> Yes, the ancients followed the same rule that we do: the most
recent
> lex is the one that matters, regardless of which set of comitia
> enacted the leges in question.
>
> > So, by Comitia Populi a Consul or Tribune can shoot down a Lex
> > approved by Comitia Centuriata.
>
> This is true so long as that lex is not a constitutional amendment
> that's been ratified by the senatus, and has therefore become part
of
> the constitution. Note also that one set of comitia cannot affect
> the internal procedures of the others.
>
> > In fact, on Ancient, 99,999% of the legislative measures were
> > proposed by the Tribunes to Comitia Populi,...
>
> Actually, they were proposed by the tribuni plebis to the body Nova
> Roma calls the Comitia Plebis Tributa. In antiquity, it was
> generally referred to as the Concilium Plebis. The tribuni plebis
> could not convene the whole populace.
>
> > ...and the Comitia Centuriata was summoned only for magistrate
> > elections. Even the consules, to propose a lex, like Caesar
> > desired, summoned the Comitia Populi.
>
> Yes. The tribal assemblies (Comitia Populi Tributa and Comitia
> Plebis Tributa) were much easier to handle than the centuriae, and
> were therefore the preferred choice. Over time, that preference
> became tradition, and therefore part of the mos maiorum.
>
> > This is a deviation of NR, much or our legislative measures are
> > from Centuriata, not Populi.
>
> The Tabularium displays 57 leges. Six were passed by the Comitia
> Plebis Tributa. Twenty-eight were passed by the Comitia Populi
> Tributa. Twenty-three were passed by the Comitia Centuriata, and
> eleven of those were constitutional amendments which must be put to
> the centuriae. So, yes, we have a fairly large number of leges
which
> were enacted by the Comitia Centuriata. This is in part because we
> have a constitution and in part because only the Comitia Centuriata
> can enact leges governing its own procedures..
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23113 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia
Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

This text is based on the following book(s):
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD.
William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray.
1890.

http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999%2e04%
2e0063&query=id%3dcomitia#id,comitia


COMIT´IA
COMIT´IA assemblies of the people at Rome, for the purpose of
transacting business. They were thus distinguished, on the one hand,
from the contio (=conventio), which was a meeting summoned to listen
to an address from a magistrate, but incapable of passing any
resolution, and from the concilium, the general term for a gathering;
hence applied to meetings of sections of the people, especially the
concilium plebis, or to meetings in foreign nations, either of the
whole people or of delegates. According to the primitive conception
in the time of the kings, all power ultimately rested with the
assembly of the citizens; it was only so far as it delegated power to
the king and vowed obedience to him that this supreme authority of
the people was limited; and according to the spirit of the
constitution, every innovation in practice or change in the existing
law required the assent of the citizens. Every proposal (rogatio) had
to be laid before the people by the king himself: no one was allowed
to discuss it, but those to whom he gave permission; and the people
then gave or refused their assent. The assembly was summoned (comitia
calata) regularly twice in the year, on March 24th and May 24th, and
as often besides as seemed good to the king. They met in the curies
[CURIAE, and apparently the answer to be given to the king was
decided by the vote of the majority of the curies.

The first step towards the reform of this primitive constitution was
that which is associated with the name of Servius Tullius. The
historical circumstances of this change are veiled in the darkness
which covers the whole legendary history of the kings. But it is
clear from the facts implied that it was brought about only when the
community had outgrown its earlier limits, and when its territory
included at least that which had belonged to the neigh-bouring state
of Alba. The primary purpose of this change was to incorporate all
owners of land in the Roman territory in the ranks of the army, so
that military service should not fall, as heretofore, solely upon the
citizens. Hence all members of the state were classed according to
the property which they possessed, and this classification was made
the basis of the military organisation of the state. But by degrees
the assembly of the citizens so classified, representing, as it did,
the fighting force of the state, acquired important powers, and in
fact came to be regarded for many purposes as the representative
assembly of the citizens. It has been conjectured with much
probability, but it can hardly be said to be demonstrated (Mommsen,
Hist. i. 264), that this important change was brought about at the
time of the expulsion of the kings.

The plebeians were now admitted to a share in the popular assembly,
but with such restrictions that the power lay entirely in the hands
of the wealthier citizens (see below). The financial distress of the
poorer classes necessitated further reforms: and in B.C. 495 tribunes
of the commons were first created.

It was probably at this time that the division of the Roman territory
into four tribes (introduced by the Servian constitution) was
replaced by the creation of twenty tribes-four belonging to the city,
sixteen to the country districts; but the assembly over which the
tribunes presided still met in curies, in which the voting was by
heads--a circumstance which gave great power to the wealthier
families, inasmuch as all their clients had a right of voting. By the
Publilian law of B.C. 471 a most important change was introduced. One
more tribe, the Crustuminian--deriving its name from the place where
first the plebs by secession won the right to an independent
organisation--was added, in order to preclude the possibility of an
equality of votes; and henceforward the assemblies of the commons
were held, not by curies, but by tribes. But the basis of the tribes
was the possession of land, whether in small or large amount; none
voted but freeholders, and thus the clients were excluded, and the
assembly of the tribes became an assembly of the independent middle
classes, where there was a property qualification, but where the
large landholder had no more weight in voting than his poorer
neighbour. (Cf. Mommsen, Hist. i. 282 = Röm. Gesch.6 i. 278.)

We thus find in existence within the first half century of the Roman
republic three distinct assemblies of the people, which now call for
separate consideration in greater detail.

I. COMITIA CURIATA (ekklêsia phratrikê or phratriakê). Under the
kings, as we have seen, this was the only assembly of the people. It
was always presided over by the king in person: the statement in
Dionysius (iv. 71), apparently confirmed by Livy (i. 59), that the
tribunus celerum had this right in the absence of the king, rests
upon a complete misapprehension of the nature of this office. Under
the republic the presiding magistrate was always a consul, praetor,
or dictator (Liv. ix. 38; Cic. de Leg. Agr. 2, 11, 27). The citizens
were summoned by a lictor (Gell. xv. 27; Dionys. ii. 7). The votes
were given by curies, each citizen having one vote, and the majority
of individual votes determining the vote of the curia (Gell. 1. c.;
Liv. i. 43; Dionys. ii. 14, iv. 20, 84, v. 6). We have no means of
knowing what was done in the case of an equality of votes, a result
not impossible with an even number of curies. The votes of the curies
were all taken at the same time; but it was decided by lot in what
order the votes should be announced: that first reported was [p. 504]
called the principium (Liv. ix. 38). The meetings of the curies were
always held in the comitium.

The functions of the comitia were limited, as has been already
noticed, to giving or refusing assent to any proposal laid before
them by the presiding magistrate. In theory the power of the king was
as unlimited over all citizens as that of the father over all members
of his family. But in practice he was bound to keep within the limits
prescribed by custom, and every change in the law had to receive the
previous sanction of the assembled citizens. The most important duty
of the citizens was to vow allegiance to the head of the state.
Normally it was the privilege of a king to nominate the successor,
who was to make the solemn contract in his turn with the people. But
in the case of a king dying without having done so, the supreme power
(imperium) and right of invoking the divine protection (auspicia) of
the state reverted to the general body of the citizens. They
assembled unsummoned and named an interrex, a temporary holder of
these rights, who could lawfully convene them, for the election of a
second interrex. It was the duty of the latter then to nominate a
king, who might challenge the allegiance of the citizens. Doubtless
he would take means, by consulting the senate or even the assembled
curies, to ascertain who would be generally acceptable; but legally
nothing was necessary but a nomination by the actual holder of the
supreme power. When the citizens had assented on their part to the
formal compact (lex curiata de imperio) which bound them to
allegiance to the king thus nominated, he was formally installed as
the absolute head of the state. Livy's account (i. 17) of the
election of Numa is misleading, as suggesting that as a main feature
which was but a subordinate and unessential portion of the election,
viz. the nomination by the senate. When once the reins of government
had been transferred to the new king, the assembly of the people had
nothing further to do with the administration. An appeal to this body
from the judgment of the king was allowed as a matter of grace, but
not of right. It was the custom to consult the assembly in the case
of aggressive war, and in the extension of the franchise to those who
were not citizens ; for both of these involved a change in the
circumstances of the original contract. (Liv. i. 32; Gell. xvi. 4;
Dionys. viii. 91, ix. 69.) Hence a lex curiata was necessary for all
acts of adoption (Gell. v. 19; Tac. Hist. i. 15), and for admission
into the curies, whether of foreigners or of plebeians. Similarly the
sanction of the people was required for all transfers of property,
which were to take place after the death of the owner; that is, for
all wills.

After the recognition of the comitia centuriata as the representative
assembly of the people, whether this took place immediately upon
their institution, as is commonly supposed, or in connexion with the
expulsion of the kings, as seems more probable, the power of passing
laws, of electing magistrates, and of declaring war was transferred
to them. But the comitia of the curies continued to meet for various
purposes, mainly formal.

In the first place, the compact by which the citizens bound
themselves to obey the commands of an elected magistrate was still
made under the form of a lex curiata de imperio. Until this was
passed, no-magistrate could enter upon his office, or be regarded as
in possession of all its privileges (magistratus optima lege or
optimo jure). In the latter days of the republic this became a mere
form. The curies were represented by thirty lictors (Cic. de Leg.
Agr. ii. 12, 31), who met in the presence of three augurs (Cic. ad
Att. iv. 1. 8; ad Fam. xiii. 1) to give the necessary vote; and their
meetings attracted so little attention, that plans might be formed
for prevailing upon three augurs to declare that they had been
present at the passing of a lex curiata, though no meeting of the
curies had been held (Cic. ad Fam. i. 9; ad Quint. Fratr. iii. 2).

Secondly, the comitia of the curies continued to meet for business in
which their functions were passive rather than active. In such cases
they were known as comitia calata. They met when summoned (calata) in
the presence (not, as is often asserted, under the presidency) of the
three pontiffs (pro collegio pontificum: Gell. xv. 27) on the Capitol
in front of the curia Calabra, an official building assigned to the
pontiffs (Varro, de Ling. Lat. vi. 27; Paul. Diac. p. 49, M.). They
met (1) to witness the making of wills, for which purpose in the
earlier times meetings were held regularly twice in the year (Gaius,
ii. § 101), though this custom after fell into disuse (Gains, ii. §
103); (2) to witness the detestatio sacrorum, a solemn renunciation
of the sacra of the original gens, which was made in cases of
adrogatio or adoption; (3) to inaugurate the flamens and the rex
sacrorum; and (4) to hear from the pontiffs on the calends of each
month on what days the nones and ides would fall, and the nature of
the other days, whether fasti or nefasti, comitiales, feriae, &c.
(Liv. ix. 46 ; Macrob. Sat. i. 15, 10; Serv. ad Aen. viii. 654;
Varro, de Ling. Lat. vi. 27). It is possible, however, from the
language of Gellius (xv. 27), that in the last case the comitia
calata consisted of the centuries, rather than the curies.

II. COMITIA CENTURIATA (hê lochitis ekklêsia). In the legislation
ascribed to Servius Tullius, the whole body of Roman citizens was
divided into six property classes and 193 centuriae (lochoi) or
votes, from which the assemblies in which the people gave their votes
were called comitia centuriata [CENSUS]. By this means the poor
citizens were compelled to bear their share in military service, but
were unable to exercise any great influence upon public affairs, for
the wealthier classes voted first; and if they agreed among
themselves, they formed a majority before the poorer classes would be
called upon to vote at all. The whole people was conceived as an army
(exercitus, or, according to the more ancient term, classis: Dionys.
iv. 18; Fabius Pictor in Gell. x. 15), and was therefore divided into
two parts: the cavalry (equites) and infantry (pedites), though it is
not by any means necessary to suppose that the people assembled in
arms. The infantry was divided into five classes, or, as Dionysius
has it, into six classes, for he regards the whole body of people,
whose property did not come up to the census of the fifth class, as a
sixth. The class to which a citizen belonged, determined [p. 505] the
tributum, or war tax, he had to pay,> as well as the kind of service
he had to perform in the army and the armour in which he had to
serve. But for the purpose of voting in the comitia, each class was
subdivided into a number of centuries (centuriae: probably because
each was conceived to contain 100 men, though the centuries may have
greatly differed in the number of the seniores, and the other of the
juniores. Each century, further, was counted as one vote, so that a
class had as many votes as it contained centuries. In like manner,
the equites were divided into a number of centuries or votes. The two
principal authorities on these subdivisions are Livy (i. 43) and
Dionysius (iv. 16-21, vii. 59), and the annexed table will show the
census as well as the number of centuries or votes assigned to each
class, and the order in which they voted. According to Livy.
I. CLASSIS. Census: 100,000 asses.
40 centuriae seniorum.
40 centuriae juniorum.
2 centuriae fabrum.
II. CLASSIS. Census: 75,000 asses.
10 centuriae seniorum.
10 centuriae juniorum.
III. CLASSIS. Census: 50,000 asses.
10 centuriae seniorum.
10 centuriae juniorum.
IV. CLASSIS. Census: 25,000 asses.
10 centuriae seniorum.
10 centuriae juniorum.
V. CLASSIS. Census: 11,000 asses.
15 centuriae seniorum.
15 centuriae juniorum.
3 centuriae accensorum, cornicinum, tubicinum.
1 centuria capite censorum.
According to Dionysius.
I. CLASSIS. Census: 100 minae (= 100,000 asses).
40 centuriae seniorum.
40 centuriae juniorum.
II. CLASSIS. Census: 75 minae.
10 centuriae seniorum.
10 centuriae juniorum.
2 centuriae fabrum (one voting with the seniores and the other with
the juniores).
III. CLASSIS. Census: 50 minae.
10 centuriae seniorum.
10 centuriae juniorum.
IV. CLASSIS. Census: 25 minae.
10 centuriae seniorum.
10 centuriae juniorum.
2 centuriae cornicinum and tubicinum (one voting with the seniores,
and the other with the juniores).
V. CLASSIS. Census: 12 1/2 minae.
15 centuriae seniorum.
15 centuriae juniorum.
VI. CLASSIS. Census: below 12 1/2 minae.
1 centuria capite censorum.


According to both Dionysius and Livy, the equites voted in eighteen
centuries before the seniores of the first class; and hence there
were, according to Livy, altogether 194, and, according to Dionysius,
193 centuries or votes. Livy's even number of 194 centuries would
have rendered it impossible to obtain an absolute majority in the
comitia; and it has been assumed, that he made a mistake in the three
centuriae accensorum, cornicinum, tubicinum, which he adds to the
fifth class. The account given by Cicero (de Rep. ii. 22, 39) agrees
with that of Dionysius, except that he assigns seventy centuries to
the first class. According to him, the centuries of the knights (18)
and of the first class (70), with one of fabri tignarii, ff eight of
the other centuries voted with them, made up a clear majority (97) of
the whole. Cf. Madvig, Verf. i. p. 114 (note). The other
discrepancies between Livy and Dionysius are not of great importance.
They consist in the places assigned to the two centuriae fabrum, the
two of the cornicines and tubicines, and in the census of the fifth
class. With regard to the last point, Dionysius is at any rate more
consistent in his gradation, and in so far deserves to be preferred
to Livy.

In this manner all Roman citizens, whether patricians or plebeians,
who had property to a certain amount, were privileged to take part
and vote in the centuriata comitia, and none were excluded except
slaves, peregrini, women and the aerarii. The juniores were all men
from the age of seventeen to that of forty-six; and the seniores, all
men from the age of forty-six upwards. The order of voting was
arranged is such a manner, that if the eighteen centuries of the
equites and the eighty centuries of the first class were agreed upon
a measure, the question was decided at once, there being no need for
calling upon the other classes to vote. Hence, although all Roman
citizens appeared in these comitia on a footing of equality, yet by
far the greater power was thrown into the hands of the wealthy.

All the business which had before belonged to the comitia curiata, in
the early days of the republic had been transferred to the comitia
centuriata; that is, they had the right of electing the higher
magistrates, of making laws and of deciding upon war, and afterwards
also of concluding peace with foreign nations. (Cic. de Leg. iii. 3,
10; de Div. ii. 35, 74).

(a.) The election of magistrates. After the presiding magistrate had
consulted with the senate about the candidates who had offered
themselves, he put them to the vote. The magistrates that were
elected by the centuries are the consuls (whence the assembly is
called comitia consularia, Liv. i. 60, x. 11), the praetors (hence
comitia praetoria, Liv. vii. 1, x. 22), the military tribunes with
consular power (Liv. v. 52), the censors (Liv. vii. 22, xl. 45), and
the decemvirs (Liv. iii. 33, 35). There are also instances of
proconsuls being elected by the centuries, but this happened only in
extraordinary cases (Liv. xxxiii. 30; xxxiv. 13). [p. 506]

(b.) Legislation. The legislative power of the centuries at first
consisted in their passing or rejecting a measure which was brought
before them by the presiding magistrate in the form of a senatus
consultum, so that the assembly had no right of originating any
legislative measure, but voted only upon such as were brought before
them as resolutions of the senate. (Dionys. v. 27; viii. 22, 43; x.
26. This is not explicitly stated by any Latin writer.) When a
proposal was passed by the centuries, it became law (lex). The first
law passed by the centuries of which we have any record was the Lex
Valeria de provocatione (Cic. de Rep. ii. 3. 1, 53), and the laws of
the Twelve Tables were sanctioned by the centuries (Liv. iii. 34).

(c.) The decision upon war, on ground of a senatus consultum,
likewise belonged to the centuries, and is often mentioned. This was
from the constitutional point of view an act of legislation (Liv. iv.
30). Peace, however, was concluded by a mere senatus consultum, and
without any co-operation of the people, in the early part of the
republic, and perhaps down to the peace of Caudium. (Cf. Rubino,
Ueber Röm. Staatsverf. pp. 259-289.)

(d.) The highest judicial power. The comitia centuriata were in the
first place the highest court of appeal (Dio Cass. xxxix. 27, &c.;
comp. APPELLATIO), and, in the second, they had to try all offences
committed against the state: hence all cases of perduellio and
majestas, and no case involving the life of a Roman citizen, could be
decided by any other court. (Cic. pro Sest. 30, 65; 34, 73: de Rep.
ii. 36, 61: de Leg. iii. 4, 11: Polyb. vi. 4, 14.) This last right
was revived or introduced by the Valerian law (Plut. Publ. 11), and
Spurius Cassius was condemned by the comitia of the centuries. There
is no reason for believing that the laws of the Twelve Tables
increased the power of the centuries in this respect.

All the powers which we have here mentioned as possessed by the
centuries had to receive the patrum auctoritas before they became
valid and binding. But, in the course of time, the assembly shook off
this control, which became merely a formality, and, in the end, the
patres were obliged to give their sanction beforehand to whatever the
centuries might determine. This was effected by the Publilian law, in
B.C. 337 (Liv. viii. 12). As thus the centuries gradually became
powerful enough to dispense with the sanction of the patres, so they
also acquired the right of discussing and deciding upon matters which
were not brought before them in the form of a senatus consultum; that
is, they acquired the power of originating measures. In reference to
the election of magistrates, the comitia originally were not allowed
to elect any other except those who were proposed by the president,
who himself was entirely guided by the resolution of the senate; but
in the course of time, the people asserted their right so far as to
oblige the president to propose any candidate that might offer
himself, without the previous sanction of the senate. This change,
according to Zonaras (vii. 344), took place in B.C. 482. In
legislative measures a senatus consultum was indispensable, and this
senatus consultum was brought before the people by the consul or the
senator who had originated the measure, after it had previously been
exhibited in public for seventeen days, to give the people an
opportunity of becoming acquainted with the nature of the proposed
law. (Appian, Bell. Civ. i. 59; Cic. pro Sest. 51, 109; in Pison. 15,
34.) Whether the comitia required a senatus consultum in cases where
they acted as the supreme court of justice, is uncertain ; at least
we have no example of a senatus consultum in such a case on record.

The comitia centuriata could be held only on dies comitiales or
fasti, on which it was lawful to transact business with people, and
the number of such days in every year was about 190 (Varro, de L. L.
vi. 29; Fest. s. v. Comitiales dies; Macrob. Sat. i. 16); but on dies
nefasti (that is, dies festi, feriati; comp. DIES), and at first also
on the nundinae, no comitia could be held (Plin. H. N. xviii. § 13;
Paul. Diac. p. 171), until in B.C. 287 the Hortensian law ordained
that the nundinae should be regarded as dies fasti (Macrob. Sat. i.
16), so that henceforth comitia might be held on the nundinae, though
it was done rarely. Comitia for the purpose of passing laws could not
even be held on all dies fasti (Cic. de prov. Cons. 19, 45). The
comitia for elections took place every year at a certain period (Liv.
xxv. 2), though it depended upon the senate and the consuls as to
whether they wished the elections to take place earlier or later than
usual (Cic. pro Mil. 9, 24; ad Fam. viii. 4; pro Muren. 25, 51).

The place where the centuries met was necessarily outside the
pomoerium; the place selected was sometimes in luco Petelino (Liv.
vi. 20), or in aesculeto (Plin. H. N. xvi. § 37), but usually in the
Campus Martius (Cic. ad Q. Frat. ii. 2; Dionys. iv. 84, vii. 59),
which contained the saepta for the voters, a tribunal for the
president, and the villa publica for the augurs. (Cic. pro Rab. Perd.
4, 11; Gellius, xiv. 7; Varro, de Ling. Lat. vi. 87.) The president
at the comitia was the same magistrate who convoked them, and this
right was a privilege of the consuls, and, under some circumstances,
of the praetors. (Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 2) An interrex and dictator
also, or his representative, the magister equitum, might likewise
convene and preside at the comitia. (Liv. viii. 23, xxv. 2; Cic. de
Leg. iii. 4, 10.) At the beginning of the republic, the praefectus
urbi held the comitia for the election of the first consuls (Liv. i.
60); and the censors assembled the people only on account of the
census and the lustrum (Varro, de L. L. vi. 86). In cases when the
assembly was constituted as a court of justice, the tribunes of the
plebs, after having obtained the permission of the consuls, sometimes
appear as prosecuting (Liv. xxvi. 3). One of the main duties
devolving upon the president, and which he had to perform before
holding the comitia, was to consult the auspices (auspicari). For
this purpose, the magistrate accompanied by an augur went out of the
city early in the morning, and chose a tabernaculum or templum. There
the augur began his observations, and gave his opinion either that
the comitia might be held, or that they must be deferred till another
day. This declaration was given to the magistrate; and when the
auspices were favourable, the people were called together, which was
done by three successive and distinct acts: the first was quite a
general invitation to come to the assembly (inlicium, Varro, de L. L.
vi. 94; comp. 86, [p. 507] 88). At the same time when this invitation
was proclaimed circum muros or de muris, a horn was blown, which
being the more audible signal, is mentioned by some writers alone,
and without the inlicium (Gellius, xv. 27; Varro, de L. L. v. 91).
When upon this signal the people assembled--in the earlier days
armed, as for a march--there followed the second call by the
accensus, or the call ad contionem or conventionem; that is, to a
regular assembly, and the crowd then separated, grouping themselves
according to their classes and ages (Varro, de L. L. vi. 88).
Hereupon the consul appeared, ordering the people to come ad comitia
centuriata; and led the whole exercitus--for in these comitia the
Roman people are always conceived as an exercitus--out of the city,
to the Campus Martius (Varro, l. c.; Liv. xxxix. 15). It was
customary from the earliest times for an armed force to occupy the
Janiculum, when the people were assembled in the Campus Martius, for
the purpose of protecting the city against any sudden attack of the
neighbouring people; and on the Janiculum a red flag (vexillum) was
hoisted, during the whole time that the assembly lasted. This custom
continued to be observed even at the time when Rome had no longer
anything to fear from the neighbouring tribes (Liv. l. c.; Gell. xv.
27; Macrob. Sat. i. 16, 15; Dio Cass. xxxvii. 27, &c.; Serv. ad Aen.
viii. 1). When the people were regularly assembled, the business was
commenced with a solemn sacrifice, and a prayer of the president, who
then took his seat on his tribunal (Dionys. vii. 59, x. 32; Liv.
xxxi. 7, xxxix. 15; Cic. pro Muren. 1; Liv. xxvi. 2). The president
then opened the business by laying before the people the subject for
the decision upon which they had been convened, beginning with the
formula quod bonum, felix, faustum fortunatumque sit (Cic. de Div. i.
4. 5, 102), and concluding his exposition with the words velitis,
jubeatis Quirites, e.g. bellum indici, or ut M. Tullio aqua igni
interdictum sit, or whatever the subject might be. This formula was
the standing one in all comitia, and the whole exposition of the
president was called rogatio (Liv. iv. 5, vi. 40, xxi. 17, xxii. 10,
xxx. 43; Cic. de Fin. ii. 16, 54; in Pison. 29, 72; pro Dom. 17, 45;
Gell. v. 19). When the comitia were assembled for the purpose of an
election, the presiding magistrate had to read out the names of the
candidates, of which a list had been published at least a trinundinum
previously, and might exercise his influence by recommending the one
whom he thought most fit for the office in question (Liv. x. 22,
xxii. 35). He was, however, not obliged to announce the names of all
the candidates that offered themselves; as, for example, if a
candidate had not attained the legitimate age, or when he sued for
one office without having been invested with those through which he
had to pass previously, or if there was any other legal obstacle;
nay, the president might declare, that if a person, to whom he had
any such objection, should yet be elected, he would not recognise his
election as valid (Liv. iii. 21, xxiv. 7; Val. Max. iii. 8, § 3;
Velleius, ii. 92). If the assembly had been convened for the purpose
of passing a legislative measure, the president usually recommended
the proposal, or he might grant to others, if they desired it,
permission to speak about the measure, either in its favour or
against it (contionem dare, Liv. iii. 71, xxxi. 6, &c., xlii. 34;
Appian, B.C. i. 11; Dio Cass. xxxviii. 4; Quintil. ii. 4, § 3). In
this case, however, it was customary for private persons to speak
before any magistrate. When the comitia acted as a court of justice,
the president stated the crime, proposed the punishment to be
inflicted upon the offender, and then allowed others to speak either
in defence of the accused or against him. Sometimes, however,
although the consul presided, the tribunes acted as prosecutors (cf.
Bouché Leclercq, Institutions Romaines, p. 121).

When the subject brought before the assembly was sufficiently
discussed, the president called upon the people to prepare for voting
by the words ite in suffragium, bene juvantibus dis (Liv. xxxi. 7).
If the number of citizens present at the assembly was thought too
small, the decision might be deferred till another day, but this was
rarely done, and a question was usually put to the vote, if each
century was but represented by a few citizens (Liv. vii. 18; Cic. pro
Sest. 51, 109; de Leg. Agr. ii. 9; Pint. Tib. Gracch. 16; Dio Cass.
xxxix. 30). The leges tabellariae ordained that the votes should be
given in writing [LEGES TABELLARIAE]. But previous to the leges
tabellariae, the rogatores, who subsequently collected the written
votes, stood at the entrance of the saepta, and asked every citizen
for his vote, which was taken down, and used to determine the vote of
each century (Dionys. vii. 64). In legislative assemblies, the voter,
probably from the earliest times, signified his disapproval by the
word antiquo, and his approval by uti rogas (Liv. vi. 38, x. 8, xxx.
43, xxxi. 8, xxxiii. 25; Cic. de Leg. ii. 1. 0, 24). The two tablets
which were given to each person for the purpose of voting on
legislative measures were marked the one with VR, and the other with
A (uti rogas and antiquo: Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 4). At elections, the
name of the successful candidate was mentioned to the rogator, who
had to mark the favourable votes by dots which he made by the side of
the name: hence puncta ferre, to be successful (Liv. x. 13, 22; xxix.
22; Hor. Ep. ii. 2, 99). The custom of voting at elections by tablets
with the name of the candidates written on them, was introduced in
B.C. 139, by the Lex Gabinia tabellaria (Cic. de Leg. iii. 1. 6, 35);
two years later L. Cassius introduced the same custom, in cases of
the comitia acting as a court of justice (Cic. Brut. 27, 106), and
afterwards it was established also in legislative assemblies, and in
cases where the comitia tried persons for perduellio [LEGES
TABELLARIAE]. At elections, the citizens obtained blank tablets, that
they might write upon them the name of the candidate for whom they
voted (Cic. Phil. xi. 8, 19; Plut. C. Gracch. 5, Cat. Min. 46; Plin.
Epist. iv. 25). In judicial assemblies, every citizen received two
tablets marked A (absolvo) and C (condemno), and, according to Pseudo-
Ascon. p. 108, a third tablet containing the letters N. L. (non
liquet); but this last statement is probably transferred by mistake
from the practice in the law-courts. There were in the Campus Martins
saepta or enclosures, originally marked off only by ropes, but
afterwards formed by palisades, tabulata (Cic. pro Mil. 15, 41; Ovid,
Fast. i. 53; Serv. on Verg. Ecl. i. 34; Liv. xxvi. 22), and later on
[p. 508] by marble walls (Cic. ad Att. iv. 1. 6), into which one
class of citizens was admitted after another for the purpose of
voting. The first that entered were the eighteen centuries of the
equites; then followed the first class, and so on. It very rarely
happened that the lowest class was called upon to vote, as there was
no necessity for it, unless the first class did not agree with the
equites (Dionys. iv. 20, vii. 59, viii. 82, x. 17; Liv. i. 43). In
this case, however, the contio was kept quite distinct from the
comitia (Cic. pro Flacc. 7, 15), and was held not in the ovile, but
in some neighbouring place, e. g. the circus Flaminius, before the
final summons of the consul (exercitum educere, Liv. xxxix. 15). On
entering the saepta, the citizens received their tablets (Cic. ad
Att. i. 1. 4; de Leg. iii. 17; in Pis. 15, 36; pro Planc. 6, 14); and
when they had consulted within the enclosures, they passed out of
them again by a pons or ponticulus, at which they threw their vote
into a chest (cista) which was watched by rogatores. Hereupon the
diribitores classified and counted the votes, and reported the result
to the presiding magistrate. That there was a separate body of
custodes, who again checked them off by points marked on a tablet, is
a very doubtful inference from Cic. in Pis. 15, 36--vos rogatores,
vos diribitores, vos custodes tabellarum. The order in which the
centuries voted was determined in the Servian constitution, in the
manner described above; but after the union of the centuries and
tribes, the order was determined by lot; and this was a matter of no
slight importance, since it frequently happened that the vote of the
first determined the manner in which subsequent ones voted. The
voting, of course, was continued, until the majority was ascertained.
In the case of elections, the successful candidate was proclaimed
twice,--first, by the praeco, and then by the president, with a
prayer that the choice might have the blessing of the gods (Cic. pro
Mur. 1, 1), and without this renuntiatio the election was not valid.
After all the business was done, the president dismissed the assembly
with the word discedite.

Cases are frequently mentioned in which the proceedings of the
assembly were disturbed, so that it was necessary to defer the
business till another day. This occurred--(1) when it was discovered
that the auspices had been unfavourable, or when the> gods manifested
their displeasure by rain, thunder, or lightning; (2) when a tribune
interceded (Liv. xlv. 21; Dionys. vi. 89; Cic. in Vat. 2, 5); (3)
when the sun set before the business was over, for it was a principle
that the auspices were valid only for one day from sunrise to sunset
(Varro, de L. L. vii. 51; Dio Cass. xxxix. 65; Liv. x. 22, xli. 17;
Dionys. ix. 41); (4) when a morbus comitialis occurred, i. e. when
one of the assembled citizens was seized with an epileptic fit (Dio
Cass. xlvi. 33; Gellins, xix. 2; Macrob. Sat. ii. 8); (5) when the
vexillum was taken away from the Janiculum, this being a signal which
all citizens had to obey (Liv. xxxix. 15; Dio Cass. xxxvii. 27;
Macrob. Sat. i. 16); (6) when any tumult or insurrection broke out in
the city, as happened now and then during the latter period of the
republic (Cic. pro Sest. 36, 78). In all these cases, the assembly
had to continue its business on some other day, sometimes on the
next. The only exception seems to have been in the case of the
election of the censors, for if both could not be elected on the same
day, it was necessary to begin the election afresh; and if one had
been elected, his election was not valid (Liv. ix. 34).

The organisation of the comitia centuriata, as constituted by the
Servian legislation, under-went during the time of the republic a
very material change, as to the date, purpose, and nature of which we
are unfortunately reduced to conjecture. The only positive statements
upon the subject are contained in two passages, one in Livy and one
in Dionysius, which have been made the subject of the most various
inter-pretations. Livy (i. 43) says: Nec mirari oportet hunc ordinem,
qui nunc est post expletus quinque et triginta tribus duplicate earum
numero centuriis juniorum seniorumque, ad institutam ab Servio Tullio
summam non convenire. Dionys. iv. 21, after describing the Servian
constitution, goes on to say: en de tois kath' hêmas kekinêtai
chronois, kai metabeblêken eis to dêmotikôteron, anankais tisi
Biastheis ischurais, ou tôn lochôn kataluthentôn, alla tês klêseôs
autôn auketi tên archaian akribeian phulattousês, hôs egnôn tais
archairesiais autôn pollakis parôn. The fact of such a change is also
implied in the phrase of Cicero turn quidem, in his description of
the Servian centuries (de Rep. ii. 22, 40), and in the use of the
term tribus in connexion with assemblies of the centuries (Cic. pro
Plane. 20, 49, &c.). The date of the change may be assigned with some
probability to the year B.C. 241. Two passages in Livy seem at first
to point to an earlier date; but in v. 18 (B.C. 396) there is little
doubt that for jure vocatis tribubus we should read with Mommsen iis
revocatis, and in vi. 21 (B.C. 383) the phrase omnes tribus bellum
jusserunt is unquestionably an inaccurate expression, corrected by
his own language in x. 22. The chief reason for the Servian
classification had indeed been removed by the introduction of the
custom of paying soldiers in B.C. 408, but it by no means follows
that the institution was remodelled as soon as it ceased to be
theoretically equitable. Livy assumes the existence of the change in
his third decade (xxiv. 7-9, xxvi. 22), where we find the democratic
party able to carry their candidates in the comitia centuriata. It is
not likely that it was one of the measures carried by C. Flaminius in
his censorship (B.C. 220), or it would have been mentioned among his
other popular acts (Liv. Ep. xx.; Polyb. ii. 21); hence it is most
natural to assume that it accompanied the creation of the last 35th)
tribe Quirina in the censorship of C. Aurelius Cotta and M. Fabius
Buteo in B.C. 241. As to the nature of the change, it is clear, in
the first place, that the division into centuries was not abandoned.
This is proved beyond doubt by all our authorities. Nor was the
principle of division into seniores and juniores abandoned. The five
classes also continued to exist, but probably with an alteration in
the amount of property required of the several classes, corresponding
to the altered value of money [AS]. The first satisfactory
explanation of the relation of the tribes to the centuries was given
by Octavius Pantagathus (died 1567; quoted by Ursinus on Liv. i. 43).
His view has been much attacked, but with some modifications it has
been accepted [p. 509] by the best modern authorities (e.g.
Marquardt, Lange, and Mommsen), and has been confirmed by epigraphic
evidence. According to this theory, each of the 35 tribes contained 5
centuries of seniores and 5 of juniores, so that the total number was
350. Whether the equites were included in the centuries of the first
class, or formed 35 distinct centuries of their own, or continued to
be divided into 18 centuries, which, along with the 4 centuries
fabrum, &c., and the century capite censorum, would make the total
350 + 18 + 4 + 1 (the view defended by Lange, ii. 477 ff.), it is
perhaps impossible to determine. It appears from many inscriptions
(cf. Mommsen, Röm. Tribus, p. 76 f.) that the half-tribes consisting
of the centuriae seniorum and the centuriae juniorum respectively
were usually considered as distinct bodies, so that we find tribus
Esquilina seniorum or tribus Palatina corporis junioris, and the
like. This appears to be what Livy means in the ambiguous words
duplicato earum numero in the passage quoted above. Madvig, however
(Röm. Verf. i. 119), still holds to the view of Niebuhr, that this
must mean that the number of centuries was twice that of the tribes,
and therefore assumes that the seniores and juniores of each tribe
formed one century, so that the total number was 70. He confesses
that it is not possible to explain how this hypothesis can be
reconciled with the continued existence of the classes, which is an
unquestioned fact (Cic. Phil. ii. 3. 3, 82; pro Flacc. 7, 15; de Leg.
iii. 3, 7, &c.: cf. Sall. Jug. 86; Gell. xvi. 10; Lex Agr. C. I. L.
i. 200, v. 37), and it is quite needless to interpret the words of
Livy in such a way as to create this difficulty. It is true that the
term centuria praerogativa (Cic. pro Plane. 20, 49; Liv. xxvi. 22) is
used always in the singular, except where there is a reference to
several elections (Fest. p. 249), of the reformed comitia, as against
the centuriae praerogativae of the equites under the earlier
constitution, and that this now bears the name of the half-tribe to
which it belonged: e.g. Aniensis juniorum (Liv. xxiv. 7), Veturia
juniorum (Liv. xxvi. 22), Galeria juniorum (Liv. xxvii. 6). But it is
natural to suppose that it was only the centuries of the first class
in the several tribes, which drew lots for the right of voting first,
and that hence the addition of the tribe-name was quite enough to
distinguish them. There is no reason to suppose from the accidental
circumstance that the three prerogative centuries, whose names happen
to have been preserved, were all juniores, that these enjoyed any
right of previous voting: the very fact of the addition of the term
juniorum points in the opposite direction.

III. COMITIA TRIBUTA. The researches of Mommsen have established
satisfactorily, against the views previously current and supported by
Niebuhr and his followers, that the Servian tribes were a division of
the land and not of the people of Rome. Hence the fact, for which
there is abundant evidence (Liv. iv. 24, xxix. 37, cf. v. 30, 32;
Cic. Phil. ix. 7, 15), that the patricians were included in the
tribes, and that several of the tribes bore the names of patrician
families. But as citizens possessed of no freeholds were not included
in a division based upon landed property, there could be no comitia
of the tribes in the earliest times, for it was essential to the
character of comitia that all citizens should have a right of taking
part in them. It was only after the action of the censors Appius
Claudius (B.C. 312) and Q. Fabius (B.C. 304) had admitted the
landless citizens into the four city-tribes, that comitia tributa
could be held in accordance with the principles of Roman public law.
The earliest extant instances of resolutions passed in the patricio-
plebeian assembly of the tribes dates from the year B.C. 443; but
these are at first limited to the election of quaestors under the
presidency of a consul. In B.C. 367 the same procedure was adopted in
the case of the curule aediles, and it was extended subsequently to
the election of minor ordinary or extraordinary officials, the
earliest instance of which is the election of a part of the military
tribunes in B.C. 362 (cf. Cic. de Leg. Agr. ii. 7, 17). There is no
clear case of a law passed in the comitia tributa before B.C. 332
(Liv. viii. 17), when the praetor L. Papirius brought before the
tribes a proposal to confer the franchise on the people of Acerra.
But it is probable that this procedure had been adopted immediately
after the introduction of the praetorship; for the praetor had no
power to summon the centuries except for criminal proceedings. The
comitia tributa were known as comitia leviora (Cic. pro Plane. 3, 7);
the auspices taken before they were held were auspicia minora; the
magistrates elected by them were magistratus minores. They were
presided over by patrician magistrates who had the jus cum populo in
comitiis tributis agendi, i.e. the consuls, the praetors, and (for
judicial business only) the curule aediles (Liv. x. 23, xxxv. 41: cf.
Cic. in Verr. i. 12, 36; Gell. xiii. 15). This view appears to be
inconsistent with the statements of Livy (iii. 55, 67) and Dionysius
(xi. 45), that in B.C. 449 the Lex Valeria Horatia ordained ut quod
tributim plebs jussisset, populum teneret, and of Livy that in B.C.
339 the dictator Q. Publilius proposed a law ut plebiscita omnes
Quirites tenerent. But it is highly probable that our authorities
have here simply transferred to resolutions of the plebs what really
applied only to resolutions passed by the tribes under the presidency
of the patrician magistrates (cf. Mommsen, Röm. Forsch. i. 164-5).
The correct legal phrase would have been quod tributim populus
jussit. If we accept this view, the two laws are brought into a
natural connexion, the former with the election of quaestors, the
latter with the extended powers given to the praetor by another
Publilian law. The same theory accounts for a statement in Zonaras
(vii. 19) that in B.C. 449 the right of taking the auspices was
granted to the tribunes. This is evidently incorrect as it stands;
but it may well be a perversion of the fact that from that date
forwards laws could be passed auspicato in the assembly of the
tribes, under the presidency of a magistrate who had the right of the
auspices.

The comitia tributa, presided over by a consul or an extraordinary
magistrate replacing him (Liv. x. 21; xxii. 33; xxxiv. 35), or by a
praetor, elected the quaestors (Tac. Ann. xi. 22), the curule aediles
(Liv. vi. 42, ix. 46; Gell. vi. 9), the regular and extraordinary
lesser magistrates (Gell. xiii. 15; Cic. de Leg. Agr. ii. 7, 17), and
of the tribunes of the soldiers after B.C. 362 [p. 510] six, after
B.C. 311 sixteen (Liv. vii. 5; ix. 30), and at a later date twenty-
four (Liv. xxvii. 36). These elections, like those of the comitia
centuriata, required to receive the patrum auctoritas, which however,
after the Lex Maenia, passed some time in the third century B.C.
(Cic. Brut. 14, 55), was given beforehand in incertum comitiorum
eventum (Liv. i. 17).

At the election of the pontifex maximus, according to Livy (xxv. 5),
a pontifex presided; but if the evidence of Cicero's letters to
Brutus (i. 5) may be trusted, a consul presided in his time. The
college of pontiffs was first completed by co-optation, and then
seventeen tribes chosen by lot (a minority of the whole number) voted
for the election of one of these as the pontifex maximus (Cic. de
Leg. Agr. ii. 7, 18; Liv. l. c. xxxix. 46, xl. 42; Suet. Jul. 13).
After the Lex Domitia de Sacerdotiis (B.C. 104) the members of the
three great and politically important colleges of pontifices,
augures, and x. (xv.) viri sacris faciundis were elected in the
following manner. The candidates, usually three in number, were
nominated, each by not more than two of the college (Cic. Phil. ii.
2, 4; Brut. 1, 1); the election was made by the people in seventeen
tribes (comitia sacerdotum) chosen by lot, and the elected candidate
co-opted into the college, as previously.

The Lex Domitia was repealed by Sulla in B.C. 83, but its provisions
were re-enacted by the Lex Atia of B.C. 63. The purpose of this
curious method of election was to take the real selection out of the
hands of the college, without formally resorting to election by the
whole people.

For the legislative and judicial functions of the comitia tributa,
see below.

We must keep entirely distinct from the comitia tributa the
assemblies of the tribes under the presidency of the plebeian
magistrates, i. e. the tribunes and the plebeian aediles, who had the
jus cum plebe agendi (Fest. p. 293; Cic. de Leg. ii. 1. 2, 31). The
technical name for these was concilium plebis; and the term comitia
tributa, so commonly applied to them by modern writers, is quite
destitute of authority. But it will be convenient to treat of them
under the present head, inasmuch as they constituted one, and in
course of time one of the most important, of the assemblies of the
people at Rome.

The distinguishing feature of the concilium plebis was that, as it
was summoned and presided over by magistrates who had no right of
summoning patricians (Gell. xv. 27), it could not be regarded as an
assembly of the whole people, and any resolutions which it passed
were not strictly speaking leges, but only plebi scita, although we
find the term lex plebive scitum sometimes employed, and ultimately
even lex. (Cp. Mommsen, Röm. Forsch. i. 195.) The two requisites
which were necessary for leges--(1) that they should be proposed
under favourable auspices, and (2) that they should receive the
auctoritas patrum--were both absent in the case of the concilia
plebis. From the legal point of view the assemblies of the plebs were
nothing more than the meetings of any other recognised corporation
under the presidency of its elected head, passing resolutions which
were binding upon all its members. But doubtless there was from the
first a desire to shape these concilia as much as possible upon the
model of the comitia, as is shown by the adoption of the patrician
calendar as regards the lawful days of meeting. The first separate
meeting of the plebs, that held on the Mons Sacer in B.C. 494, may
perhaps have been held under the military forms of the centuriate
comitia; but the earliest regular meetings after the institution of
the tribunate were doubtless organised by curies. This explains the
statement, which according to the theories of Niebuhr and his school
is so utterly inexplicable, that the tribunes of the commons were
elected in the comitia curiata (Cic. pro Cornel. in Ascon. p. 76;
Dionys. vi. 86, ix. 41: cf. Liv. ii. 56). In B.C. 471 the plebs
resolved, on the proposal of Volero Publilius, to hold the elections
of tribunes, and doubtless to pass their other resolutions also,
according to tribes (Liv. ii. 56, 60; Dionys. ix. 41, 43). The
importance of this lay in the fact that thus the landless clients of
the patricians were excluded from all share in the elections, which
henceforward lay in the hands of the plebeian freeholders. The
Publilian law thus created the independent organisation of the middle-
class plebeians (excluding the turba forensis), which was destined
within the next hundred years to win them equal civic rights with the
patricians.

The regulations of the concilium plebis closely resembled those of
the comitia curiata, and were contrasted with those of the comitia
centuriata. The vote of each tribe was determined by the majority of
the votes of the citizens belonging to it; and although the votes
were taken simultaneously, they were reported in an order determined
by lot, the same name (principium) being given to the curia and to
the tribe whose vote was first announced. As no meeting of the
centuries could be legally held within the pomoerium, so no meeting
of the curies or of the tribes was, as a rule, held without it, and
the Comitium was the regular place of assembly for both, the Capitol
being also allowable in both cases. But while we have no instance of
a meeting of the curies outside the pomoerium, there are some cases
of meetings of the tribes, not merely on the Aventine, but also in
the Prata Flaminia (Liv. iii. 54), and the elections presided over by
the tribunes were in the later days of the republic usually held in
the Campus Martius (Cic. ad Att. i. 1, 1; pro Planc. 6, 16, &c.). It
is a common but erroneous view that the Comitium was regarded as
especially proper for the curies, the Forum generally for the tribes,
though doubtless the Comitium itself must have been too small for the
meetings of the tribes. The concilia plebis were never held
auspicato: this is shown by the positive statements of Livy (vi. 41,
5) and Dionysius (ix. 41, x. 4), which we have no reason to consider
as referring simply to the earliest times. At the same time, although
it was not necessary to seek for the approval of the gods, any
indication of their disapproval could not be overlooked (Cic. in Vat.
7, 17); a storm would break up a meeting of the commons as much as a
meeting of the people. We must explain in this way cases of plebeian
magistrates who resigned as vitio creati (Liv. x. 47; xxx. 39), and
of plebiscita annulled as invalid (Cic. pro Cornel. in Ascon. p. 68).
Anyone, but especially a magistrate, who noticed a lightning-flash,
was bound to report it to the [p. 511] president of the assembly,
who, acting on his own judgment or on that of the augurs, might
declare the meeting at an end; and after the laws of Aelius and
Fufius (about B.C. 150) he was required to do so. Hence after this
date we find obnuntiatio commonly employed as a means of obstruction
(Cic. Or. cum sen. gr. eg. 5, 11; in Vat. 8, 20; Phil. v. 3, 7). The
days specially reserved for the concilia plebis were the nundinae
[NUNDINAE], which the Lex Hortensia seems to have made non-comitial
for this purpose (Macrob. i. 16, 29-34). The commons were summoned by
praecones; after the usual prayers, the presiding magistrate read the
rogatio (preceded, if he thought fit, by a contio), and then the
tribes were summoned to vote (Liv. iii. 71; vi. 37; x. 9, &c.). The
functions of the concilia plebis may be arranged under three heads.

1. Elections.--After the Lex Publilia of Volero (B.C. 471) the
tribunes of the commons and the plebeian aediles were elected (as
noticed above) by the commons organised as tribes (Liv. ii. 56;
Dionys. ix. 49).

2. Legislation.--Resolutions adopted by the concilia plebis were in
theory binding only upon the commons (Liv. iii. 55; Gell. xv. 27;
Gains, i. 3). But if they received the sanction of the senate, they
were valid for all citizens. We have no definite information as to
when this principle was formally recognised, but Mommsen's view seems
the most probable, that a lex centuriata, earlier than the
plebiscitum Terentilium (B.C. 462), first formally sanctioned it. It
is certain that the necessity for the sanction of the senate was
removed by the Lex Hortensia in B.C. 287, and that from this time
forward the concilia plebis formed the principal legislative organ of
the Roman people (Plin. xvi. 15, 10; Gell. xv. 27; Gains, i. 3). Here
the tribunes proposed rogationes, to which, when passed, the term lex
was commonly, though not strictly applied. These leges must be
carefully distinguished from the leges praetoriae which were passed
by the comitia tributa under the presidency of the praetors (see
above), and from the leges consulares, which, especially in the later
times of the republic, were frequently carried in the same body under
the presidency of a consul.

3. Judicial.--The concilium plebis attempted to assert its right to
pronounce a capital sentence in the case of Coriolanus (B.C. 491)
(Dionys. vii. 69), on the ground of a violation of the leges
sacratae; and in the next half-century there are several similar
instances (Liv. ii. 52, 54, 61; iii. 12, 31); but the decemviral
legislation expressly enacted de capite civis nisi per maximum
comitiatum ne ferunto (Cic. de Leg. iii. 4, 11, 19, 44; de Rep. ii.
36), a provision which was not obsolete in the time of Cicero (pro
Sest. 34, 73). Henceforward the assemblies of the plebeians could
inflict no punishment more severe than a fine (inrogare multam); the
amount imposed at the discretion of the magistrate was strictly
limited by the Lex Aternia Tarpeia of B.C. 454: hence, in all graver
cases, it was necessary to obtain the sanction of the tribes
assembled either in the comitia tributa or in the concilium plebis.
In political cases the tribunes generally presided; in questions of
police, the aediles.

Sulla, according to some, abolished the comitia tributa altogether,
or, according to others, deprived them of the right of electing the
sacerdotes, and of all their legislative and judicial powers. (Cic.
in Verr. i. 1. 3, 15; de Legg. iii. 9; Liv. Epit. 89; Appian, de
Bell. Civ. i. 59, 98; comp. TRIBUNUS) But the constitution, such as
it had existed before Sulla, was restored soon after his death by
Pompeius and others, with the exception of the jurisdiction, which
was for ever taken from the people by the legislation of Sulla. The
people suffered another loss in the dictatorship of Caesar, who
decided upon peace and war himself in connexion with the senate. (Dio
Cass. xlii. 20.) He had also the whole of the legislation in his
hands, through his influence with the magistrates and the tribunes.
The people thus retained nothing but the election of magistrates; but
even this power was much limited, as Caesar had the right to appoint
half of the magistrates himself, with the exception of the consuls
(Suet. Caes. 41; Cic. Phil. vii. 6; Dio Cass. xliii. 51), and, in
addition to this, he recommended to the people those candidates whom
he wished to be elected: and who would have opposed his wish? (Dio
Cass. xliii. 47; Appian, Bell. Civ. ii. 18.) After the death of
Caesar the comitia continued to be held, but were always more or less
the obedient instruments in the hands of the rulers, whose unlimited
powers were even recognised and sanctioned by them. (Appian, Bell.
Civ. iv. 7; Dio Cass. xlvi. 55, xlvii. 2.) Under Augustus the comitia
still sanctioned new laws and elected magistrates, but their whole
proceedings were a mere farce, for they could not venture to elect
any other persons than those recommended by the emperor. (Suet. Aug.
40, &c.; Dio Cass. liii. 2, 21, lv. 34, lvi. 40.) Tiberius deprived
the people even of this shadow of their former power, and conferred
the power of election upon the senate. (Tac. Ann. i. 15, 81, ii. 36,
51; Vell. Pat. ii. 126.) When the elections were made by the senate,
the result was announced to the people assembled as comitia
centuriata or tributa. (Dio Cass. lviii. 20.) Legislation was taken
away from the comitia entirely, and was completely in the hands of
the senate and the emperor. Caligula placed the comitia again upon
the same footing on which they had been in the time of Augustus (Dio
Cass. lix. 9; Suet. Cal. 16); but this regulation was soon abandoned,
and everything was left as it had been arranged by Tiberius. (Dio
Cass. lix. 20.) From this time the comitia may be said to have ceased
to exist, as all the sovereign power formerly possessed by the people
was conferred upon the emperor by the Lex Regia. [LEX REGIA] The
people only assembled in the Campus Martius for the purpose of
receiving information as to who had been elected or appointed as its
magistrates, until at last even this announcement (renuntiatio)
appears to have ceased.

In addition to the works on Roman history in general, the reader may
consult Unterholzner, De Mutata Centuriatorum Comit. a Servio Tullio
Rege Institutorum Ratione, Breslau, 1835; G. C. Th. Francke, De
Tribuum, de Curiarum atque Centuriarum Ratione, Schleswig, 1824;
Huschke, Die Verfassung des Servius Tullius, 1838; Hüllmann, Römische
Grundverfassung; Rubino, Untersuchungen über die röm. Verfassung,
1839: [p. 512] Zumpt, Ueber die Abstimmung des röm. Volkes in
Centuriatcomitien.

[The views previously held as to the comitia curiata and comitia
tributa have been largely modified by the researches of Mommsen,
Römische Forschungen, vol. i. The most complete statement of the
theories commonly accepted previous to these researches will be found
with full references to ancient and modern authorities in Becker and
Marquardt's Römische Alterthümer, vol. ii. part 1, pp. 353-394, and
part 3, pp. 1-196. Cf. Lange, Röm. Alterthümer,2 [i. 341-355, 391-
491; ii. 418-682.] [L. S.] [A. S. W.]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23114 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Message 22890......
Nor is it necessary for magistrates, Senators, priests, or other officials (even while speaking as private citizens) to use insults and bad language to those who disagree with their view points. "He/she said it first!" is the justification of a child who doesn't know better or an adult with a socialization problem. I agree with the domina who suggested that we treat each other better. Christ was able to associate with many different people without hostility (except money-changers in the Temple Court). I'm not even a Christian and I ask--Would it demean us to do the same?

F. Galerius Aurelianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23115 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Message 22890......
F. Galerius Aurelianus Q. Bianchio Corvino. Salve.

"Frankly it never dawned on me that a group of modern Western-Educated people would practice animal sacrifice."

This statement doesn't necessarily imply that the person who posted it is being insulting. It shows rather her ignorance of other people's beliefs. I know a Western-educated man who is a Voodoun Priest (who practices animal sacrifice) and I know a Western-European educated Samaritan (who would consider it a sin if the Paschal Lamb was not sacrificed). It is apparent from this domina's many posts on this topic that she is very much ignorant about many other religions and beliefs. Fortunately, ignorance is curable with education. Unlike, say stupidity which is usually incurable.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23116 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia
Salvete Tribunis Arminius Faustus et alii:

Tribune, many kudos for posting these historical texts, in this case
which I've snipped for brevity...

As one who is interested in the judicial bodies and their respective
procedures, among other things in Rome, I certainly appreciate your
offerings. I know when you one is initially starting out researching
any of these things, they can be hard to find, and Smith's Dictionary
is a great start for cross referencing, and has alot of primary
sources. I am speaking, of course, as an historical amateur, not being
formally disciplined in ancient history.

And in reading this, a couple of things come to light, which I have
been particularily curious about.

Academics are truly one good thing which Nova Roma proudly offers the
world.



I am really enjoying the read, as I am sure others are.

Gratias,
Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23117 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Fw: GateLock Virus Notification.
Salvete, Quirites

I have asked REPEATEDLY to have my email removed from the
pontifices@...
email account. This address serves as nothing but a conduit for spam and
virus.

What exactly must I do to have this done? Must I take legal action?

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur


----- Original Message -----
From: <GateLockX200@...>
To: <pontifices@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:22 AM
Subject: GateLock Virus Notification.


> Dear GateLock user,
>
> GateLock has detected the WORM_NETSKY.P in your email attachment
"details.txt
.pif". The file could not be cleaned and was therefore deleted.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23118 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
> It is grammatically impossible for Fausta's sentence
> to mean that she volunteers. For it to mean that it
> would have to say, "I volunteer, Scaurus". Without the
> comma, it means that she volunteers Scaurus (which is
> not strictly grammatical either since 'volunteer' is
> not properly a transitive verb, but the intent is
> clear).

Is it not in fact possible that (allowing "to volunteer" to be a verb
for the time being) she was in fact volunteering Scaurus to conduct
the sacrifice, rather than to be sacrificed? After all, being a
vegetarian, she would probably not want to do it herself.

Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23119 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
Salvete omnes,

Perhaps but there are sometimes numerous mistakes in the grammar on
these postings and especially in punctuation. I thought of the comma
situation before and as the military says, if something can be
misunderstood it will be misunderstood.

One volunteers for him or herself, not for another. It would be
better to say - I volunteer to suggest that Scaurus will be the...
or I volunteer to be the ...

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Fabia Livia"
<livia_lists@s...> wrote:
> > It is grammatically impossible for Fausta's sentence
> > to mean that she volunteers. For it to mean that it
> > would have to say, "I volunteer, Scaurus". Without the
> > comma, it means that she volunteers Scaurus (which is
> > not strictly grammatical either since 'volunteer' is
> > not properly a transitive verb, but the intent is
> > clear).
>
> Is it not in fact possible that (allowing "to volunteer" to be a
verb
> for the time being) she was in fact volunteering Scaurus to
conduct
> the sacrifice, rather than to be sacrificed? After all, being a
> vegetarian, she would probably not want to do it herself.
>
> Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23120 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - III - Comitia
Salve, excelent Strabo

Thanks a lot.
There is many thing we should correct a bit on NR, and we must base
ourselves on that kind of text. Small corrections, without much
political impact, just to help the novoromans to understand more Rome
by Nova Roma.

However, somethings called my attention on the text

I. The Plebis Scita on the beginings, only had laws if passed
throught a Senatus Consulta
II. The Concilium Plebis was first a gathering of a corporation
III. It copied many procedures of the Comitia Centuriata and Populi.
IV. After, the Plebiscita gained power to enact laws.
V. There was no need to a Tribune, a magistrate without auspices,
call the auspices.
VI. However, at the responsability of the own presiding magistrate,
he should dismiss the Comitia himself if he saw bad omens.
VII. Not only the Tribune could call, but the Plebeian Aedile too,
for judgments.


VIII. The sign of the Comitia Centuriata called were a vexilium on
the Janiculum hill. Hum... we could put a small .gif of a Vexilium
(banner/flag) on NR site first page on the time of the Comitia. It is
an idea.

Anyway, I think on NR we should have more tradition of Leges throught
the approval of Comitia Populi, coming from Tribunes and Consules as
well.

According to NR legislation, even for plebeian matters, due to the
ordo proportion, a tribune should call the Comitia Populi. It is a
hole in the law (should I propose something?). On the end of may, I
would like to propose some Lex of Plebeian discretion, however, it
will go to Comitia Populi. Hum... patricians, vote abstineo so.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Tribunis Arminius Faustus et alii:
>
> Tribune, many kudos for posting these historical texts, in this case
> which I've snipped for brevity...
>
> As one who is interested in the judicial bodies and their respective
> procedures, among other things in Rome, I certainly appreciate your
> offerings. I know when you one is initially starting out researching
> any of these things, they can be hard to find, and Smith's
Dictionary
> is a great start for cross referencing, and has alot of primary
> sources. I am speaking, of course, as an historical amateur, not
being
> formally disciplined in ancient history.
>
> And in reading this, a couple of things come to light, which I have
> been particularily curious about.
>
> Academics are truly one good thing which Nova Roma proudly offers
the
> world.
>
>
>
> I am really enjoying the read, as I am sure others are.
>
> Gratias,
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23121 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
After all, being a
> > vegetarian, she would probably not want to do it herself.
> >
> > Livia

Salvete Quirites;
Livia has the right of it; my previous post was humourous! I do not
think my tofu-soaked bones would propitiate any deity....except
probably Molech, he'll take anybody.
(this is a BackAlley joke, so Molech-worshippers do not get agitated)
bene vale Sp.Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23122 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Quintius Constantius, and
to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

> However, the situation in NR is different. The
> Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the
> right
> to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret
> this
> to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation
> after
> it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that
> they
> wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with
> a
> previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> constitutional.

This is indeed what the constitution says, though the
various leges de comitia provide that vetoes may be
issued during contio, thus implying that they cannot
be issued after voting has begun. Depending on where
one places the line between a lex which validly
interprets and limits the constitution and a lex which
conflicts with the constitution, one may choose to
regard that implication as forceful or not.

However, the reason for the ancient practice must be
understood: it is that the tribunes, like other
magistrates, derive their authority from the people
(yes, they derive their power from their
sacrosanctity, but they possess that sacrosanctity by
virtue of a popular vote), and thus for a tribune to
attempt to use powers derived from the people to
frustrate the formally-expressed will of the people
would be for him to defy the source of his own
authority and thus implicate himself in a legal
paradox. These basic facts still being the case today,
it is very hard to see what justification a tribune
could produce for attempting to veto a properly
enacted lex or plebiscitum, and we must hope that the
tribunes will refrain from doing so in recognition of
ancient practice and of good sense, even if they may
be entitled under law to do it. Moreover it seems to
me desirable for the present constitution to be
harmonised with ancient custom in this respect at some
time in the future, the nearer the better.

> I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should
> be
> revisited...

In principle I'd agree with that, though it would seem
sensible to ask whether there have in the past been
any occasions on which a veto which would otherwise
have been issued has not arisen thanks to the
shortness of the time limit. If the answer is 'no',
that suggests that 72 hours are ample, though I accept
that it's not conclusive proof.





____________________________________________________________
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your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23123 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
labienus@... wrote:
> Have a very happy birthday, Tite Octavi!

Salve, Tite Labiene Fortunate.

Thank you kindly, and I apologise for missing your well-wishings in my
first "thank you" post. I did indeed have a very happy birthday, as per
your suggestion. ;)

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

--

"Qui desiderat bellum, praeparet bellum." - Vetinari

+--------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Phone: +46 90 98300 | E-mail: c99kfm@... |
| +46 70 3972769 | from@... |
+--------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Address: Kristoffer From | URL: http://thule.darkeye.net/from |
| Furuvägen 23 +------------------------------------+
| 918 31 Sävar | ICQ: Titus Octavius Pius |
| SWEDEN | UIN 5589990 |
+--------------------------+------------------------------------+
| -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
| Version: 3.1 |
| GCS dpu- s:++>: a-- C++>$ UL+ P+ L++ E W++(--) N |
| o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS- PE-- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X- |
| R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y- |
| ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23124 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Fw: GateLock Virus Notification.
I Would also like to be removed from this alias.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil96@c...> wrote:
> Salvete, Quirites
>
> I have asked REPEATEDLY to have my email removed from the
> pontifices@n...
> email account. This address serves as nothing but a conduit for spam and
> virus.
>
> What exactly must I do to have this done? Must I take legal action?
>
> Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <GateLockX200@t...>
> To: <pontifices@n...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:22 AM
> Subject: GateLock Virus Notification.
>
>
> > Dear GateLock user,
> >
> > GateLock has detected the WORM_NETSKY.P in your email attachment
> "details.txt
> .pif". The file could not be cleaned and was therefore deleted.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23125 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
AVETE CIVES

I'm here announcing my intention to candidate for the Quaestorship
for next elections.

I want to serve Rome and Nova Roma with all my engagement, as I
believe in all our purposes and projects.
I also think I could be a good Quaestor as I'm the "oldest" among the
candidates, and probably the one with the biggest amount of
experience .
I have served Nova Roma initially from the inside of Provincia
Italica, then coming out in some bigger involvements for our Res
Publica.

Here is my brief Curriculum Vitae:
I have followed the courses of our local Academia, initially directed
by Ill. Manius Constantinus Serapio, then becoming his own director
(Rector).
I have recently been called in our provincial governemnt (Curia
Italica) by our Propraetor Serapio, being appointed as an apparitor
(Scriba).
I'm directing for Nova Roma our project "Interview the Expert"
("Chiedilo all'Esperto" in Italia).
I belong to the cohors consularis of our Senior Consul Gnaeus Salix
Astur.
I am involved in our project of restoring the Sanctuary of Magna
Mater and in its relative founds raising.

I'm sure of how good are all the other candidates, and even for this
reason I'm sure of how good could I do being elected as Quaestor this
year.
For these reasons I ask your vote, Civis!

I'll be glad to answer to any of your quaestions about me or my
offices.

BENE VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23126 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
AVETE CIVES

I'm here announcing my intention to candidate for the Quaestorship
for next elections.

I want to serve Rome and Nova Roma with all my engagement, as I
believe in all our purposes and projects.
I also think I could be a good Quaestor as I'm the "oldest" among the
candidates, and probably the one with the biggest amount of
experience .
I have served Nova Roma initially from the inside of Provincia
Italica, then coming out in some bigger involvements for our Res
Publica.

Here is my brief Curriculum Vitae:
I have followed the courses of our local Academia, initially directed
by Ill. Manius Constantinus Serapio, then becoming his own director
(Rector).
I have recently been called in our provincial governemnt (Curia
Italica) by our Propraetor Serapio, being appointed as an apparitor
(Scriba).
I'm directing for Nova Roma our project "Interview the Expert"
("Chiedilo all'Esperto" in Italia).
I belong to the cohors consularis of our Senior Consul Gnaeus Salix
Astur.
I am involved in our project of restoring the Sanctuary of Magna
Mater and in its relative founds raising.

I'm sure of how good are all the other candidates, and even for this
reason I'm sure of how good could I do being elected as Quaestor this
year.
For these reasons I ask your vote, Civis!

I'll be glad to answer to any of your quaestions about me or my
offices.

BENE VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23127 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
--- Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@...>
wrote:
> >
> On NR, nowadays, due to the ordo proportion, I a
> tribune, can call
> only the Comitia Populi. Comitia Plebis only to
> election
>
>

Or to enact legislation that deals only with the
internal procedures of the Comitis Plebis Tributa.

Lucius Quintius Constantius




__________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23128 From: Caius Ianus Flaminius Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: DNA researches [was Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORE
Avete Aedile Scaure et Tribune Caesar,

>Yes I agree, your information are quite correct. However I have read
>other studies (I don't remember the authors) saying that the ancient
>roman genetic deposit was the asme of some more ancient italic
>tribes in several areas of Center and South Italy. This suppose that
>if ancient Romans had the same DNA of Sanniti, Apuli, Lucani,
>Campani, etc, and the modern Italians have a genetic deposit very
>similar to the Romans, the modern Italians could have the same
>geneti patrimony of the more ancient men of Italy. This could mean
>that the modern dominant genetic deposit could be linked to the
>original habitants of Italy and to free roman men.

I read a couple of interviews with two important geneticists: Luca Cavalli Sforza (Standord University, California) and Alberto Piazza (Turin University) that studied the genetic code of modern Italians.
Genetically, it's nearly impossible to find any trace of Roman Dna in the present days, because:

- Rome was, from the very first time, a city composed by people of different ethinc groups (Latin, Sabin and someone says even Greek!)

- during the Republic and the Empire, the Romans spread all over the empire merging with local populations.

At university I had a couple of exams related to DNA and pertaining subjects, it seems that a genoma peculiar to a particular people could appear only if this people:

1. lived for a very long time in a place;
2. lived relatively insulated.

Romans surely populated for a long time Italy and the Empire, but, practically, they were NEVER isolated.
In fact, Cavalli Sforza and Piazza didn't find an unique DNA type related to the Roman people, the major influences on the Italians DNA are from Etruscans, Osco-Piceneans, Ligureans, Greeks and Sardinians (the modern Sardinians are often used in experiments because their genetic code is very very peculiar).
According to these studies a lesser influence came from Celts, Venets, Albanians, Arabs and Normans; it seems also that the contribution of Spanish and Austrian invasions is insignificant.
Italian popolution was never totally deported. For example: Istria is now a Croatian land, altough it was inhabitated for centuries by Italians. During the times of the WW II ALMOST ALL Italians were killed or escaped: the modern citizens of Pula cannot say that they are the descendants of the Romans who built the wonderful amphiteatre of Pula. The invasions of these centuries in Italy, in most cases, were simply absorbed.

For the slaves, my opinion is that a lot of virtuoses ancient Romans could not be sure of their "free-man" origin. I also think that when one man is declared free, he, and his sons, are free...FOREVER.

So, I think it's right to say that the modern Italians are "very near" to the ancient inhabitants of the Saturnia Tellus. Honestly, I am proud to live in a country that I consider sacred, and I am proud to belong to NR.
Aedile Scaure, I think that your opinions on a lot of subjects are my opinions and I sincerely appreciate your knowledge and your efforts for NR butI am perfectly agree with Apulus when he says that if someone talk about the superbowl results it's all ok, while when an Italian opens his mouth about how we are happy to belong to our country we seem like "secessionists" :-)
Ok ok, NR is an American Inc.... I'm wrong ;-)

Bene Valete
Caius Ianus Flaminius

PS: FORZA INTER :-)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23129 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
--- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Quintius Constantius, and
> to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> > However, the situation in NR is different. The
> > Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the
> > right
> > to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret
> > this
> > to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation
> > after
> > it has passed a vote, but only within the
> prescribed
> > 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> > announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> > broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> > unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that
> > they
> > wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts
> with
> > a
> > previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> > constitutional.
>
> This is indeed what the constitution says, though
> the
> various leges de comitia provide that vetoes may be
> issued during contio, thus implying that they cannot
> be issued after voting has begun.

I don't belive that is the case. Certainly the
Constitution and the laws allow the Tribunes to veto a
Contio.

As I recall (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong),
the provisions that you are referring to state that an
intercessio may be issued against a particular item on
the ballot or against the entire election. A
confirmed intercessio (a intercessio concurred in by a
majority of the Tribunes) during a Contio would have
the effect of stopping the election on the matter
vetoed.

Just because the leges "allow" intercessio during
Contio (in my opinion, they don't really do that, as
that is a subsisting Constitutional right of the
Tribunes), does not mean that once the law has reached
a final vote that it is no immune to veto. That only
happens if the law/election has reached a final vote
AND the 72-hour time has passed without a confirmed
veto.

Someone mentioned the Constitutional provision
regarding the most recently enacted lex taking
precedence over a previously-enacted lex that
contradicts it. I don't deny that. But if there is a
confirmed veto immediately following the final vote on
a lex, then that lex is not enacted, and the most
recently enacted lex on that subject is the previous
one.


Depending on where
> one places the line between a lex which validly
> interprets and limits the constitution and a lex
> which
> conflicts with the constitution, one may choose to
> regard that implication as forceful or not.
>
> However, the reason for the ancient practice must be
> understood: it is that the tribunes, like other
> magistrates, derive their authority from the people
> (yes, they derive their power from their
> sacrosanctity, but they possess that sacrosanctity
> by
> virtue of a popular vote), and thus for a tribune to
> attempt to use powers derived from the people to
> frustrate the formally-expressed will of the people
> would be for him to defy the source of his own
> authority and thus implicate himself in a legal
> paradox. These basic facts still being the case
> today,
> it is very hard to see what justification a tribune
> could produce for attempting to veto a properly
> enacted lex or plebiscitum, and we must hope that
> the
> tribunes will refrain from doing so in recognition
> of
> ancient practice and of good sense, even if they may
> be entitled under law to do it. Moreover it seems to
> me desirable for the present constitution to be
> harmonised with ancient custom in this respect at
> some
> time in the future, the nearer the better.
>


I agree with what you are saying here. The point I
have been trying to make is that the Tribunes aren't
limited by the Constitution itself to only veto
unconstitutional measures. For purposes of example
only, let's assume that the Senate votes in one
session that the color "red" will now be called
"green". The next session the Senate decides to pass
a new measure which repeals this one, esentially,
returning "green" to "red". The Tribunes could veto
the new senatusconsultum on the basis that it
contradicts the previous senatusconsultum, and so from
that point on, "red" is "green".

So as long as a majority of the Tribunes agree, they
can veto virtually anything, as long as it is within
the proper time limits. Does the example above defy
common sense? Yes. Would it be legal under the Nova
Roman constitution? Yes.

Granted this particular example addresses votes of
the Senate rather than of the Comitia, but the
principle is the same. The language is the
Constitution is so broad that a Tribune may veto
anything that violates "letter and/or spirit" and I
think we are agreed that "spirit" of the
Constitution/law is a much broader concept than of
"letter". It is also very much subjective.


I do think that it would be unwise for the Tribunes
to veto the final vote of a Comitia. Doing so would
likely be suicidal to a future political career in
Nova Roma. But since, to my knowledge, there is no
mechanism for impeachment of a Tribune, and no
requirement that a Tribune "must" run for any other
office, who is to stop them?

> > I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos
> should
> > be
> > revisited...
>
> In principle I'd agree with that, though it would
> seem
> sensible to ask whether there have in the past been
> any occasions on which a veto which would otherwise
> have been issued has not arisen thanks to the
> shortness of the time limit. If the answer is 'no',
> that suggests that 72 hours are ample, though I
> accept
> that it's not conclusive proof.
>
>

And what happens if we elect a full-slate of
Tribunes at election time, and then three or more of
them disappear? Wouldn't that in effect paralyze the
Tribunes for the duration of that term?

Is there any subsisting legislation that says if a
magistrate/Tribune is absent for (X) length of time,
the office is considered vacant? If not, should there
be?


Lucius Quintius Constantius




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23130 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
--- Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@...>
wrote:
>
>
> The big problem should be a veto of a veto. Tribune
> A vetoes because
> he things unconstitutional, Tribune B vetoes the
> veto because he
> proves it is constitutional indeed. Tribune A does
> not agree, Tribune
> B does not agree the disagreement and so...
>
>

The Nova Roman Constitution has already solved this
problem. A Tribune is not allowed to veto another
Tribune's veto.

Once a Tribune issues his/her veto, the other
Tribunes issue either an agreement or disagreement
with the veto. If more Tribunes agree with the veto
than disagree with it, the veto is "confirmed" (my
phrase) and valid.

Though this does bring out a question. Let's assume
a full-slate of 5 Tribunes. Tribune A vetos some
legislation, Tribune B issues a statement of
agreement, Tribune C issues a statement of
disagreement. Tribunes D & E have disappeared for
months.

So we have:

Veto:

Tribune A: Yes
Tribune B: No
Tribune C: Yes
Tribune D: nothing
Tribune E: nothing.

Is the fact that Tribunes D & E issue no statement
at all considered to be statements of disapproval? If
so, then the veto fails, 3-2. If we take into account
only the inital veto and the statements of
agreement/disagreement, then the veto passes, 2-1.

Any thoughts?


Lucius Quintius Constantius





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23131 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
--- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@...> wrote:
> > Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the
> constitution, the
> Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of
> the constitution as
> its criteria for intercessio, no?
>
> Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the
> 'actions' of a
> Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate,
> or to nix the
> current schedule in favour of a new one, for some
> odd reason? They
> must follow constitutional parameters...they simply
> cannot veto it for
> reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not
> fair'...
>
>

Actually, I believe that they can do exactly that,
if that is their interpretation of the "spirit" of the
Constitution or a lex, senatusconsulta, whatever.

The only limitations that I see on the use of a
Tribune's veto in Nova Roma are the following:

1. Edicts of a Dictator or Interrex cannot be
vetoed (Constitution, IV.A.7.a)

2. A Tribune cannot veto another Tribune's veto
(Constitution, IV.A.7.a.i.)

3. A Tribune cannot veto another Tribune's
declaration of agreement or disagreement of a
Tribune's veto (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.ii.)

4. A majority of the Tribunes must agree with the
veto (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.i.3) I find this to be
troublesome. Does this mean a majority of Tribunes
elected, or does it mean a majority of those who make
a statement on the issue?

5. The veto must be based on violation of the
letter and/or spirit of the Constitution or some other
legally-enacted measure is being violated
(Constitution, IV.A.7.a)

6. The Tribune must include in the veto: a) the
name of the citizen(s) requesting the veto, if any, or
the name of the citizen(s) on whose behalf the Tribune
is acting, if any; b) the official name and office of
the magistrate(s) against whose act(s) the Tribune is
acting; c) the article(s) of the Constitution or leges
being violated by the act(s) of the magistrate(s)
(Constitution, IV.A.7.a.iii, Lex Didia Gemina de
Potestate Tribunicia II.A)

7. The veto must be announced in at least one of
Nova Roma's main communications fora (Constitution,
IV.A.7.a.iii, Lex Labiena de Intercessione II)

8. The veto must be issued within 72 hours of the
announcement of the item or action to be vetoed
(Constitution IV.A.7.a.iii, Lex Labiena de
Intercessione II, Lex Didia Gemina de Potestate
Tribunicia II.A.2. and II.A.4)

Plus all of these elements assume that an item or
action has taken place. So the first element needs to
be legislation, edict, senatusconsulta, etc. For
instance, a Tribune cannot decide to issue a veto on
the amount of tax to be levied if the Senate has not
yet voted that a certain amount shall be levied.

The Tribunes must follow Constitutional procedure
and Constitutional principles for the veto to be
valid. But the Constitution itself allows the
Tribunes to look outside of the Constitution for the
justification of their vetoes.


Lucius Quintius Constantius




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23132 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: DNA researches [was Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORE
Salvete omnes,

This is indeed an interesting subject. Aside from DNA I read some
various posts over the last year about lineages. Many of us can
trace our ancestors back several centuries but the articles went on
to say that even for the wealthy European aristocracy who can afford
to spend thousands and thousands on their family research, things
even for them get extremely murky after reaching the 10th century.

I guess Iceland is the best sort of field laboratory to do the DNA
research and the reason for that is fairly obvious.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23133 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: DNA researches [was Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORE
>
> I guess Iceland is the best sort of field laboratory to do the DNA
> research and the reason for that is fairly obvious.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Salve Quinte Lani;
yes Iceland is interesting as DNA testing shows they are a mix of
Norwegians and Irish. Ireland being a bridal stopover...Additionally
while the middle of Ireland is mixed Norman, Viking, etc..the West,
Galway and Mayo is in some places extremely genetically pure and
ancient. I think testing is showing that indeed they are related to
the Galicians of Hispania.
Now in my own ethnic case, members of the Jewish priestly caste
of Levites, persons bearing the surname Levi, Levine, Levitt do carry
a gene marker singular to Levites & thus history is confirmed by
science.
Of course I am proud to belong to an ancient race & our Italian
confreres are justly proud to belong to such a glorious culture &
peoples.
As for genealogy, I believe the oldest verifiable family tree is
that of Master K'ung of China, COnfucius to us Barbarians;-)
bene vale Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23134 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: New Flamen Volturnalis - Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Salvete,

I would like to make a belated Priesthood announcement that missed being done
while Patricia Cassia and I were on vacation in Britannia Provincia.

Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus has been approved as Flamen Volturnalis
(Flamen of the river-god Volturunus) by the Collegium Pontificum of Nova Roma. As
Flamen Volturnalis, Ambrosius Artorus will both restore the rites to
Volturnus as well as working to expand knowledge about Volturnus' ancient worship.

I have every confidence that Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus will do
excellent work in this position, and I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will
assist me in congratulating him on his new position. I would also like to extend a
public apology to Ambrosius for the delay in this post being made!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23135 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: New Flamen Volturnalis - Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Gaius Modius Athanasius Gaio Ambrosio Artoro Iuliano salutem dicit

Congradulations! It is good to see another Flamen join the Collegium Pontificum.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Flamen Pomonalis

In a message dated 5/6/2004 10:23:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cassius622 writes:

> I would like to make a belated Priesthood announcement that missed being done
> while Patricia Cassia and I were on vacation in Britannia Provincia.
>
> Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus has been approved as Flamen Volturnalis
> (Flamen of the river-god Volturunus) by the Collegium Pontificum of Nova Roma. As
> Flamen Volturnalis, Ambrosius Artorus will both restore the rites to
> Volturnus as well as working to expand knowledge about Volturnus' ancient worship.
>
> I have every confidence that Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus will do
> excellent work in this position, and I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will
> assist me in congratulating him on his new position. I would also like to extend a
> public apology to Ambrosius for the delay in this post
> being made!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23136 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: New Flamen Volturnalis - Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
---Salve Ambrosi Artore Iuliani !

My heartfelt congratulations!

I kinda wondered why you weren't a sacred, a flamen, or one of those
things :)

Po


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I would like to make a belated Priesthood announcement that missed
being done
> while Patricia Cassia and I were on vacation in Britannia Provincia.
>
> Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus has been approved as Flamen
Volturnalis
> (Flamen of the river-god Volturunus) by the Collegium Pontificum of
Nova Roma. As
> Flamen Volturnalis, Ambrosius Artorus will both restore the rites to
> Volturnus as well as working to expand knowledge about Volturnus'
ancient worship.
>
> I have every confidence that Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus will do
> excellent work in this position, and I hope that the Citizens of
Nova Roma will
> assist me in congratulating him on his new position. I would also
like to extend a
> public apology to Ambrosius for the delay in this post being made!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23137 From: olafuyi adewunmi Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Re: OT: ten new countries in the European Union
i want to know about the main subject written,


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23138 From: Legion XXIV Date: 2004-05-06
Subject: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2004
VICESIMA QUARTA
The Newsletter of
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA

MAY 2004

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Praefectus - Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
610-353-4982
legionxxiv@... www.legionxxiv.org

Commilitones

ADVENAE - Newcomers
*** Jonathan Rennick romanista77@... from northern reaches of the Empire
in Ottawa, Ontario has been redirected to Legion XXX in Niagara Falls, Ont.,
which is much closer to him. We still hope to have him turn-out with us if he desires to.
*** John Gunn (Gnaeus Titinius Crassus) gnaeustitiuscrassus@... of
Runnemede, NJ has petitioned for conscribere status as an auxiliary.
*** William Waters (Caius Victricius Bellicus) wwaters98@... has just
inquired about signing-on. He is from the Commander's old neighborhood and just a
few houses away from the Commander's former domicile. He has 2 years of Latin under
his belt and he could be an asset for correcting the Commander's Latin, which leaves
much to be desired. Being so close to the Legion's Castra, we hope to see him with us often.
*** M. Burton Hopkins Jr. (Marcus Velius Hibernius) bhop46@... has joined our
NovaRoma Gens Velia. He hails from New Castle DE and we hope to see him at our events.

*** Tony Rowley (Antonius Velius Hibernius) checked-in with an update on his status.
He is quite busy at work; but meanwhile he is engaged in (as he says) a "mass-reduction"
effort and will acquire his kit and gear as he makes progress in that endeavor.

Lets HEAR from MORE OF YOU on your status with the Legion. We have quite a roster
of members; but we are hearing from only a small number, and even fewer are helping out
by turning out for events. The Commander and a few dedicated troopers can only defend
Rome for so long!! - We need more Help!! - Please!!

MARCHING THRU TIME - After Action Report
Commander Marsallas, Quinton Johanson, Brian Mackey and Kenneth Scriboni turned-out
for this multi-period living history demonstration from Ancient Rome up through Desert Storm.
The Legion was registered as a separate unit this year and participated with Legion XX
for the field maneuvers. The Legion's Engine of Terror Ballista was demonstrated several times
during the two days. The machine was in good form firing SCA type arrow-bolts 175 feet.
One the bolt was nearly MIA, when it fell into a flower bed and was difficult to locate.
Brian Mackey's aka Master Baro's new impressive 10 foot high officer's tent was set-up and
the camp prepared on Friday Evening. The tent really gave our Camp credibility and provided
ample room for changing clothes (while standing up - nice!), storing gear and taking a breather
out of sight of the public.
Saturday's campaigns went well with the good weather bringing out a large number of visitors.
Dinner at Marietta on Saturday Night was on the Commander and much good food and
conversation was enjoyed after the day's steady activity.
On Sunday morning, the Ballista took part in the impromptu "All Periods Melee".
It scored a number of plunging-fire direct hits until it was assaulted by the Civil War units.
However, Rome prevailed when it later scored again as the units were marching back to camp.
Sunday was equally good as to the weather and visitors. This was one of the most successful
campaigns the Legion has had, but we still need more troopers turning-out.

ROMAN DAYS NORTHEAST May 15, 2004 - Woodstock Fairgrounds, Equestrian Center -
Woodstock, CT 10 am to 4 pm Contact: lawrensnest@...
This Event, only a week away!! It is being sponsored by La Wren's Nest, Legio VIIII Triumphalis and
Legio III Cyrenaica.

It will be held at an equestrian park that will have ample room for our military maneuvers and encampment.
Fred Wojick (Flavius Octavius Servius) and his brother Greg (Gallus Octavius Oppius), have put together an Onager catapult. They claim a range of 300 feet using softballs. Come see it in action!!! Some barbarians have been captured for us to use as fodder for our gladius and pila practice. The Ludus Magnus Gladiators are also expected to be there. Master Baro will have his new Officer's Tent for changing, storing and weather protection.
Let's hope we don't need it for that final contingency!
Games and other activities for young and old will be going on throughout the day. A Roman Market and Merchant's Row will be set-up. The Legion XXIV "Castra" (headquarters) on Friday and Saturday Nights, will be the Kings Inn, at Exit 96 of I-395, in Putnum, CT, 10 miles from the Woodstock Event. This is the closest hotel to the Event and they have a restaurant on premises. Contact the Kings Inn at 800-541-7304 and ask for the preferential room rate for Romans of $62.72 single and $69.44 double, with taxes and fees included.
Contact La Wren's Nest at the above e-mail or the event website http://www.lawrensbasement.com/RomanDaysNE.html for more information, directions, other hotels, etc.
Units and individuals are asked to contact Julie at LaWrens to advise her of your space requirements and the number of tents you are bringing. Legion XXIV will have a 50 x 50 foot space allocation which should suffice for Master Baro's new marquee tent, our displays and other needs. Arrive after 2PM on Friday for set-up. A dinner on Saturday night is planned for event participants.
Please advise the Commander at legionxxiv@... if you will be attending this event.

ROMAN DAYS NORTHEAST FEAST - Julie and Lawrence Brooks (LaWrens Nest)
are planning to have a Roman feast at 5 pm after the close of the event.
It will be a nice way for re-enactors, staff and volunteers to end the day and give everyone a chance to socialize.
The feast will be a combination of Roman and Egyptian dishes. The price is $20.00 for adults, $12 for children under thirteen.
They need to have a head count by April 20th, so the food can be purchased.
If you want to come to the feast, please send a check made payable to "Mar-Vista" at 1227 South River Road, Marshfield, MA 02050. Attach a note stating that you are paying for the feast and a list of names. Also, please note if you have any food allergies.
The feast menu will consist of the following: (note: we are still checking on spelling, please excuse any errors in Latin spelling until we get the final correct spellings. Or you can send us a correct spelling).
Appetizers
beta caseus patella - platters with fresh sliced fruits and melon served around a yogurt dip, with feta cheese and gouda chunks.
Cucumber and Yogur salad - sliced cucumbers in a yogurt sauce, Rowies - Scottish rolls, made similarly to croissants
First Course
Shourbet Al Khodar served with white rice - a combination of beef, vegetable and spices, slow-stewed and served over the rice
Fabiciae Verdis et Baeana - green berans and soy beans with coriander, cumin and leeks.
Second course
Chicken kabobs - marinated white and dark meat chicken, slow-roasted with period herbs and spices
Tagen Roze- rice with onions herbs, chicken broth Rolls - whole wheat rolls
Dessert
Dulca Domestica - fresh dates, stuffed with fruits and other period choices, with a honey dip Libum - honey soaked pastry, these are cheese and flour, baked then oaked in honey
Libum absque caseus - same as above, but without the cheese.
Period beverages will include Sakajabin, lemon water and fruit juice.


MID-WEST VEXILLATION CALLED FOR ENCORE CAMPAIGN
Ft. Malden in Amherstburg, Ontario, was so impressed by a demo done by the
Legion's Mid-West Vexillation a few months ago, under command of our Mid-West Optio,
David Smith (Quintus Fabricus Varus), that they want Quintus and the Vexillation
for a Special Event at the Fort on Sunday, May 23rd. This will be in addition to our
regular Fort Malden participation on July 31 and August 1 this year.
OOO RAAAHHH !!! to Optio Quintus Fabricus and our Mid-West Vexillation for
defending the interests of Rome in the outer reaches of our Provincia.
The Call is going out to ANY and ALL Romans to converge on Ft. Malden on Saturday,
May 22 to set up for Sunday's show. A camp of a dining fly, two squad tents and misc.
equipment will be set-up. Dave is looking for a musician or two, so if you know of anyone
who might become cornicen (tuba-trumpet-bugle) let him know.
The Commander cannot attend this event so it will be in the Optio's capable hands.
Contact Optio Varus at david.smith@... for more details on this Event.

UPM REQUESTS SUMMER CAMP ENCORE
The University of Pennsylvania Museum, in Philadelphia, has requested a return engagement
of Roman Military and Gladiators on August 12 or 13 for its annual summer camp for young people.
We would need a couple of legionaries to demonstrate and talk with the kids.
If you think you could help out with this, please advise the Commander.

LEGION GETS NEW AQUILA AND IMAGO STANDARDS
The Commander has assembled new Aquila (Eagle) and astrological Taurus (Bull) Imago
Standards. The original Aquila, which served us well, was made of non-historical cold-cast
material and had become shabby due to chipping and breakage and has now been retired.
The new Aquila Eagle is cast metal and is mounted to the pole in a more historically correct
manner. The Commander came across a large 13 inch long Taurus-Bull standing on a
wood base. He snapped it up (for more than a few $$$'s) and it is now mounted and will
serve as the Legion's astrological Imago Standard.
See them both at www.legionxxiv.org/signum or better yet, see them in person at an Event!!

ONAGER CATAPULT JOINS LEGION'S ARTILLERY POOL
The Legion now has a second piece of artillery - OOUU - RAAAA !!!
Fred Wojick (Flavius Octavius Servius) and his brother Greg (Gallus Octavius Oppius),
who just signed-on with the Legion last October, have put together an Onager catapult.
They claim a range of 300 feet using softballs! It is a little more than 4' x 6' and stands
5' tall. it took them 7 months to complete. They made everything as authentic as possible.
It has wheels and promises to outshine the Commanders wimpy? ballista, which can
only lob plastic tube ammo 175 feet. This mighty machine was to be at MTT; but Fred
was called to additional police duty for a trial. Too Bad! Now we will have to wait until
Roman Days Northeast to witness this new "Engine of Terror".


POSSIBLE REN FAIRE APPEARANCE - SUNDAY OCT 24
The Legion has been invited to participate in a planned Renaissance Faire in northern New Jersey
on Sunday, October 24, 11AM - 5PM. The event would be at the Waterloo Village near NetCong,
I-80, Exit 25. Mark your calendars and stayed tuned for additional details.

THE COMMANDER TO WALK SIX MILES FOR AIDS RESEARCH
Your noble Praefectus, reincarnated in a Galaxy Far Far Away as Star Wars Stormtrooper
"Old Sarge Oberon" TD124 is doing it again in "04". He will be participating in the
10 kilometer / 6.2 mile New York City Aids Walk on Sunday, May 16th, in full Star WarsTrooper Armor,
with members of the Empire City Garrison of the 501st Star Wars Stormtrooper Legion,
benefiting the National "Fight Against HIV and Aids".
In 2003, some 45,000 participants raised $5.1 million for AIDS research and relief.
Please go to www.legionxxiv.org/stnycwalk for photos and details on Sarge Oberon's AidsWalk effort
in 2003, in which he raised $800. He is hoping to surpass $1000 in 2004! - But He Needs Your Help AND $$$'s!
As the oldest trooper in the 501st Legion (62 years young!), he is asking and looking for your support
in this worthy endeavor.
Please Follow This Link to donate what you can in fraternal support of the Old Sarge / Commander Marsallas
and Humanity.

Thank You ! Carry On !! OOO - RAAA !!!

George Metz aka Trooper "Oberon" TD124
Sergeant at Arms - Garrison Carida - 501st Legion
www.legionxxiv.org/trooper124
geometz@...


UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS

*** May 23 Mid-West Vexillation Special Campaign at Fort Malden, Ontario.

*** June 12-13 "Roman Days", Marietta Mansion, Glendale, MD

*** June 19-20 "Muster on the Maumee" Time Line Event, Fort Meigs, Perrysburg, OH
*** July 31 - Aug 1 Multi-Period Time Line Event, Fort Malden, Amherstburg Ontario, opposite Detroit.

*** August 12 or 13 Univ.PA.Museum Summer Camp, Roman Day, Philadelphia

*** August 18-19-20-21 Pennsic War XXXIII, The Great Battle between the Kingdoms of the East and the Middle; Rts I-79 & US-422, New Castle, PA. Legion XXIV will be displaying the presence of Ancient Rome.

*** Sept 18-19 -- Roman Market Days, Wells Harbor Park, ME

*** October 15-16-17 Movie Trailer Shoot and Encampment at Parthenon in Nashville, TN with multiple Legion Units
and 100+ Roman Reenactors www.romanreenactment.com gbarbosa@...

*** October 24, Sunday, Possible Ren Faire appearance, Waterloo Village, Netcong, NJ, I-80-exit 25 11AM-5PM

Be sure to check the website from time to time. It is updated at least once a month and generally more than once.
www.legionxxiv.org New material includes details on the New Aquila and Taurus Standards, early Roman Calendars and months, updates to the Glossary, new gladiator helmets on the Ludus Magnus page, more details about the Coliseum and other updates throughout the website. Check in often.

Thanking you for your continued support of Legion XXIV, I remain;

Vires et Honos - Strength and Honor

Gallio / George




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23139 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
--- Salvete Quintius et Omnes:

I've changed the name of the thread....without a shred of
imperium...and I feel absolutely no guilt about it at all....:)

Anyway, down to business...

In the loose sense, and I thought about this, I can see a tribune
thinking that too high a tax hike is against the spirit of the
constitution. But all that would mean is that the Senate/Consuls
would have to take its tax tables back to the drawing board, to be
reissued. Truth be told, I think we would have an unsolicited
hotplate from the populace which would 'clue' the consuls into the
fact that they are asking too much, and not to expect the revenues
they thought. I'll go that far.

In this we are seeing the Tribunes vetoing 'an action' from a Senatus
Consultum which might go against the spirit of the constitution. But
they cannot, as you say, veto taxes period, sight unseen, before the
Senate/Consuls draft a budget and work on a tax table...this authority
of taxation by the Senate is mandated by the constitution, and such
cannot be vetoed in itself.

In the same light, Tribunes could veto a decretum, if they thought it
was against the constitution or its spirit, but they could not veto
the Religio Romano, as it has its place, unquestionably as the state
religion of NR.

I do not understand, with respect, where you think the Tribunes might
have to look outside the constitution for a veto? They are sworn by
oath to protect and defend the constitution, to protect the
constitutional rights of citizens through intercessio when and if
necessary. If they feel that something is amiss constitutionally,
and/or the procedures of the Tribunate is not as well aligned with
their constitutional duties, they go through proper comitiae to change it.



But they must veto within the parameters of the written constitution,
or what they can reasonably interpret as the 'spirit' of the
constitution, which allows some wiggle room, but it has to be
reasonable 'wiggle room', and such that can be explained.

All leges, including that which you present in your post below, are
either 'pursuant' to the existing constitution (atleast theoretically)
or if they change the constitution, must be ratified by the Senate
2/3. As of this date, the constitution still reads that Tribs veto
actions of magistrates, senatus consulta, decreta, etc. etc. except
the interrex or dictator.

Since the Tribunes get their power from the constitution, how can they
justifiably circumvent by providing intercessio other than where they
can explain where its against the letter or spirit of same? They must
address either situations: unconstitutional or 'against the spirit of
the constitution'..they may not look outside that, as I see it.

The subject of another series of threads of discussion...how can any
body of law be above the constitution which gives it authority in the
first place? It is the same principle, nonne?

Is this enough? ...well, that has been the thread of many threads. I
think Tribune 'quality control' has improved, plus or minus, with the
increase in Tribunes, and as the populace increases we can, atleast
historically, increase the number of Tribs to 10. We started out with
just two, and I believe they could veto eachother :)

I am happy to entertain other insights, of course.

Valete,
Pompeia




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the
> > constitution, the
> > Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of
> > the constitution as
> > its criteria for intercessio, no?
> >
> > Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the
> > 'actions' of a
> > Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate,
> > or to nix the
> > current schedule in favour of a new one, for some
> > odd reason? They
> > must follow constitutional parameters...they simply
> > cannot veto it for
> > reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not
> > fair'...
> >
> >
>
> Actually, I believe that they can do exactly that,
> if that is their interpretation of the "spirit" of the
> Constitution or a lex, senatusconsulta, whatever.
>
> The only limitations that I see on the use of a
> Tribune's veto in Nova Roma are the following:
>
> 1. Edicts of a Dictator or Interrex cannot be
> vetoed (Constitution, IV.A.7.a)
>
> 2. A Tribune cannot veto another Tribune's veto
> (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.i.)
>
> 3. A Tribune cannot veto another Tribune's
> declaration of agreement or disagreement of a
> Tribune's veto (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.ii.)
>
> 4. A majority of the Tribunes must agree with the
> veto (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.i.3) I find this to be
> troublesome. Does this mean a majority of Tribunes
> elected, or does it mean a majority of those who make
> a statement on the issue?
>
> 5. The veto must be based on violation of the
> letter and/or spirit of the Constitution or some other
> legally-enacted measure is being violated
> (Constitution, IV.A.7.a)
>
> 6. The Tribune must include in the veto: a) the
> name of the citizen(s) requesting the veto, if any, or
> the name of the citizen(s) on whose behalf the Tribune
> is acting, if any; b) the official name and office of
> the magistrate(s) against whose act(s) the Tribune is
> acting; c) the article(s) of the Constitution or leges
> being violated by the act(s) of the magistrate(s)
> (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.iii, Lex Didia Gemina de
> Potestate Tribunicia II.A)
>
> 7. The veto must be announced in at least one of
> Nova Roma's main communications fora (Constitution,
> IV.A.7.a.iii, Lex Labiena de Intercessione II)
>
> 8. The veto must be issued within 72 hours of the
> announcement of the item or action to be vetoed
> (Constitution IV.A.7.a.iii, Lex Labiena de
> Intercessione II, Lex Didia Gemina de Potestate
> Tribunicia II.A.2. and II.A.4)
>
> Plus all of these elements assume that an item or
> action has taken place. So the first element needs to
> be legislation, edict, senatusconsulta, etc. For
> instance, a Tribune cannot decide to issue a veto on
> the amount of tax to be levied if the Senate has not
> yet voted that a certain amount shall be levied.
>
> The Tribunes must follow Constitutional procedure
> and Constitutional principles for the veto to be
> valid. But the Constitution itself allows the
> Tribunes to look outside of the Constitution for the
> justification of their vetoes.
>
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23140 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
L C Sardonicus to A. Apollonius Cordus, who has provided his other
names, and to everyone else who bothers to read this, greetings.

I had to think about this for a while because I don't care for the
arrogant tone and my first instinct was to tell you to "F" off.
While I defer to your knowledge of republican politics, I take
umbrage at your insinuation that I am incapable of understanding
written english. Moral uprightness and competency are, at least in
my opinon, absolute. Either one exhibits goodness of character and
capability or one does not. It is subjective only in the measure
that I allow it. If I trust someone enough to perform a certain
duty, they either fulfill my expectations or fail and there is
nothing exceptional or extraordinary about it.

Pass or fail. Do, or do not. There is no try.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Sardonicus, who has not
> troubled to mention his other names, and to all his
> fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.
>
> > "The senate would in practice have the legal powers
> > of a dictator in
> > perpetuity, and would therefore have to maintain the
> > most
> > extraordinary moral rectitude and professional
> > competence over a
> > theoretically infinite span of time in order to
> > avoid being made
> > corrupt by the very fact of those powers."
> >
> > Forgive my ignorance, but isn't that the whole point
> > of a republic?
> > I, for one, find the Nova Roman Senate beyond
> > reproach in everything
> > they've done to date. Also, I don't think
> > maintaining moral
> > rectitude and professional competence should be
> > perceived as
> > extraordinary. It's expected.
>
> I do forgive your ignorance, but I'm afraid that's
> what it is. 'Republic' is not another word for
> oligarchy, and the Roman republic was not an
> oligarchy. At no point in the history of Rome, except
> possibly for a brief period between the expulsion of
> the kings and the establishment of the republic (an
> interesting question, but not one for this message),
> did the senate have such powers as Cornelia Strabo is
> suggesting it be given now. Even when its authority
> was greatest it could not have repealed a properly
> passed lex by sheer force of its own will.
>
> As for your second comment, I must ask you to read
> again what I wrote. I wrote, "The senate would... have
> to maintain the most extraordinary moral rectitude and
> professional competence over a theoretically infinite
> span of time". That means that the level of moral
> rectitude and professional competence needed would be
> extraordinary. I did not write, "The senate would...
> have to maintain moral rectitude and professional
> competence, which would be extraordinary", which is
> what you seem to have understood me to mean despite
> the fact that by no stretch of the imagination of even
> the most imaginative grammarian could the sentence I
> wrote have conveyed that meaning.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23141 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
Salvete:

I am snipping the previous text to save bandwidth, as this will follow:

An added thought to the current Tribune system, the effectiveness of
the Intercessio et al:

It is important for the Plebian Assembly to do their part in voting,
and in doing so after a long responsible look at the candidates...are
they active, do they have a basic sense of the constitution (they
don't have to be lawyers) are they willing to shed minor
ideo/political differences and look objectively at issues and act
according to the best wishes for all concerned?

Remember also, that if you need to appeal anything, one of your major
avenues is the Tribunes. And you want them to be there for you.

So part of making any system work is to vote for persons who will
collaborate to make that system work, or to effect any changes which
might be necessary to the benefit of the republic.

Valete,
Po
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23142 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
L C Sardonicus to Sep Fab Veria, felicitations.

If it's a backalley joke, perhaps you should not relate it here.

Be Well and Hearty,
Sardonicus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> After all, being a
> > > vegetarian, she would probably not want to do it herself.
> > >
> > > Livia
>
> Salvete Quirites;
> Livia has the right of it; my previous post was humourous! I do
not
> think my tofu-soaked bones would propitiate any deity....except
> probably Molech, he'll take anybody.
> (this is a BackAlley joke, so Molech-worshippers do not get
agitated)
> bene vale Sp.Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23143 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2004
L C Sardonicus salutes the uncharacteristic endeavors of the
Imperial Stormtrooper Oberon.

George, e-mail me privately. Perhaps we can meet up at some point
along the route. It would be a pleasure meeting you.

Everyone, this is a worthy cause. If you have a few extra
sesterces, please donate them in Mr. Metz's name.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Legion XXIV" <legionxxiv@c...>
wrote:
> VICESIMA QUARTA
> The Newsletter of
> LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA
>
> MAY 2004
>
> Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
> Praefectus - Commander
> 13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
> 610-353-4982
> legionxxiv@c... www.legionxxiv.org
>
> Commilitones
>
> THE COMMANDER TO WALK SIX MILES FOR AIDS RESEARCH
> Your noble Praefectus, reincarnated in a Galaxy Far Far Away as
Star Wars Stormtrooper
> "Old Sarge Oberon" TD124 is doing it again in "04". He will be
participating in the
> 10 kilometer / 6.2 mile New York City Aids Walk on Sunday, May
16th, in full Star WarsTrooper Armor,
> with members of the Empire City Garrison of the 501st Star Wars
Stormtrooper Legion,
> benefiting the National "Fight Against HIV and Aids".
> In 2003, some 45,000 participants raised $5.1 million for AIDS
research and relief.
> Please go to www.legionxxiv.org/stnycwalk for photos and details
on Sarge Oberon's AidsWalk effort
> in 2003, in which he raised $800. He is hoping to surpass $1000
in 2004! - But He Needs Your Help AND $$$'s!
> As the oldest trooper in the 501st Legion (62 years young!), he is
asking and looking for your support
> in this worthy endeavor.
> Please Follow This Link to donate what you can in fraternal
support of the Old Sarge / Commander Marsallas
> and Humanity.
>
> Thank You ! Carry On !! OOO - RAAA !!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23144 From: Stefn_Ullarsson Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: New Priesthood Appointments
Salus et Fortuna Omnes,

Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus scripsit:

As A Lictor of Nova Roma, I hereby give witness to the following priestly
appointments within Nova Roma and the Religio Romana:

Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus as Flamen Volturnalis,

Spurius Postumius Tubertus as Sodales Fetiales

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta as Sacerdos Magna Mater

Marcus Martianus Gangalius as Sodalis Salii

=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Rogator, Civis et Paterfamilias

Mind's reach should have, no bounds in search
For meaning and wit, riddles to solve
To seek and think, are greatest skills
In mankind's grasp, oftimes unused
- the Sayings of Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23145 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Witnessing the new Priests!!
As a member of the Comitia Curiata, I hereby witness the appointment of

Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Flamen Volturnalis

Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Sodales Fetiales

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Sacerdos Magna Mater

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Sodalis Salis

into the afforementioned Priesthoods. I congratulate them on their appointment and wish them the necessary wisdom to communicate with the Gods for the Good of Nova Roma!



Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO) Factio Praesina
Lictor curiatus
Translator linguae Germanicae
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23146 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Salvete Praetores,
Salvete citizens,

Regarding Fabia Vera and her statement proposing to kill a fellow citizen.
Regarding those who defend her statement as a punctuation error.

Fabia Vera often reminds us that she is a lawyer and a lawyer puts a period or a comma in a
sentence exactly where they want it to be.

Since she appeared on this main list in Nov 2003, Fabia Vera has made herself noticed soley
because of her sharp tongue. This example is just the sharpest.

When has proposing killing a fellow citizen become socially acceptable in Nova Roma? Everyone is
busy arguing about the fact that maybe--eventually- if we had a real Temple-- Pontifices would
sacrifice animals. But yet this woman proposes killing a fellow citizen--now-- and this is ok?

Where are our Praetores? I demand an official response publicly stated on this list.

Q Fabius and L S Drusus were run through the wringer a few months ago over comments which were
much more benign than proposing killing a fellow citizen. The voices of the Holier Than Thou 'You
said something against the public moral values' club are dead silent now and even worse, certain
citizens are even defending her statement with ridiculous feeble excuses for her like 'she forgot
a comma'.

Don't we even have a Senate Morality Commission these days? Where are the Moral-er Than Thou
Senators, Consules and Censores that are so full in the mouth with words like "dignitas",
"moral values" and "you acted immorally and against his dignitas, you should be prosecuted in Nova
Roma court" ???

Those voices are unusually silent because it is not WHAT someone says, it is WHO says it and
more importantly whose ass they kiss before they say it.

Valete,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23147 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Nonae Maii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is the Nonae Maii; the day is fastus. On this day the Rex
Sacrorum would announce the regular fixed feriae of the month on the
Nonae by edictum. The Nonae were sacred to Iuno Covella and the Regina
Sacrorum sacrificed to Iuno at the Regia. The Vestals would prepare
mola salsa from the first wheat of the season.

Tomorrow is ante diem VIII Idibus Maii; the day is fastus.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23148 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Ave Omnes

> When has proposing killing a fellow citizen become socially acceptable in
> Nova Roma? Everyone is busy arguing about the fact that maybe--eventually- if
>we had a real Temple-- Pontifices would sacrifice animals. But yet this woman
>proposes killing a fellow citizen--now-- and this is ok?

Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice became socially
acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an obviously serious and
intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow citizen in public. Or maybe the days
following that when he re-affirmed it showing actually pride in it, sustained in
his action by several cives, some of those being not among the least in status
and rank. Who knows?

But then, can we show our indignation about the ones who in the same manner
proposed to sacrifice Fabia Vera rather than Scaurus and shall we ask for the
whole of them to be proceeded against, possibly in the same trial? Or we will
make a distinguish between proposals of human sacrifices depending who
designated victim is? :)

Apparently, the "socially acceptable" is a relative concept, isn't it? Is not
acceptable that X is proposed to be scarified, but is acceptable that is
proposed that Y shall be scarified rather than X... :) (and please note the :)
)

> Where are our Praetores? I demand an official response publicly stated on
> this list.

Now, that is an interesting question that for personal reasons I had to ask too,
even if not over the mailing list. Didn't get a reply tho... where are they?

> Q Fabius and L S Drusus were run through the wringer a few months ago over
> comments which were much more benign than proposing killing a fellow citizen.

Maybe, it happened because the comment by Fabia Vera was evidently not to be
taken seriously or at least not literally (and the fact the most of the
replies, it seems to me, were leaning more towards the humorous than the
indignation maybe shows that most people actually took it for what it was),
while QFM and LSD were dead serious in their lines?

> The voices of the Holier Than Thou 'You said something against the public
> moral values' club are dead silent now and even worse

I'd be very careful about starting a "You used the Holier than thou attitude"
race (which could be the same than "I'm more learned than you", "I'm more close
to the NR spirit than you", "I'm more important than you", "I'm more ... than
you"). I'm not exactly sure about how many people around here were able to
abstain using that kind of attitude over the last year, but I've a personal
opinion about who actually used it more and, are we really sure we want to
start a discussion about that? :)

Vale bene

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23149 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Salvete Illustrus Sulla et Omnes,
as in january during the last elections, I'll publicly support your
candidacy as Quaestor. During the last months you confirmed your
good skills in the interviews of experts and in the Provincia
Italia. Your recent appointment in the provincial administration
will give us an important contribution.

I would invite you all, citizens, to vote for Lucius Iulius Sulla
and confirm ther support given him in the last elections.
Thank you

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senator, Tribunus et Legatus Italiae


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Iulius" <21aprile@e...>
wrote:
> AVETE CIVES
>
> I'm here announcing my intention to candidate for the Quaestorship
> for next elections.
>
> I want to serve Rome and Nova Roma with all my engagement, as I
> believe in all our purposes and projects.
> I also think I could be a good Quaestor as I'm the "oldest" among
the
> candidates, and probably the one with the biggest amount of
> experience .
> I have served Nova Roma initially from the inside of Provincia
> Italica, then coming out in some bigger involvements for our Res
> Publica.
>
> Here is my brief Curriculum Vitae:
> I have followed the courses of our local Academia, initially
directed
> by Ill. Manius Constantinus Serapio, then becoming his own
director
> (Rector).
> I have recently been called in our provincial governemnt (Curia
> Italica) by our Propraetor Serapio, being appointed as an
apparitor
> (Scriba).
> I'm directing for Nova Roma our project "Interview the Expert"
> ("Chiedilo all'Esperto" in Italia).
> I belong to the cohors consularis of our Senior Consul Gnaeus
Salix
> Astur.
> I am involved in our project of restoring the Sanctuary of Magna
> Mater and in its relative founds raising.
>
> I'm sure of how good are all the other candidates, and even for
this
> reason I'm sure of how good could I do being elected as Quaestor
this
> year.
> For these reasons I ask your vote, Civis!
>
> I'll be glad to answer to any of your quaestions about me or my
> offices.
>
> BENE VALETE
> L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23150 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Justicia
Salve Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,

<Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice became socially
<acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an obviously serious and
<intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow citizen in public.

When Q Fabius remarked something totally stupid that Franciscus Apulus urinated on his toga,
everyone went crazy. But yet when Fabia Vera says 'I propose Scaurus' to be sacrificed, then it is
a matter of "oh she was kidding" "oh, she only forgot a comma".

Two wrongs don't make a right, and I call for some even handedness in Nova Roma not based on who
says what and who is cozy offlist with whom, but on WHAT is said. Favoritism is just fine when it
comes to a vote, but when it comes to the Law, the blind-folded Justicia is the Goddess that we
should follow.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23151 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Quaestorship
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I unreservedly and with great delight endorse the candidacy of L. Iulius
Sulla for the office of quaestor. His intelligence, erudition,
scholarship, reliability, and boundless energy in support of Nova Roma
stands as a sterling example of what a magistrate should possess. I am
deeply proud to call him gens-brother. I regretted that I was not able
to endorse him previously because of a prior, personal commitment to a
deeply respected friend. Nothing would make me happier than to see this
young man begin now what I believe will be an illustrious ascent of the
cursus honorum and a dedicated career of service to the respublica. May
the Di Immortales protect and advance his candidacy to success!

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23152 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Salvete Diana et Fusce,
honestly I agree with Diana, if Fabia Vera wrong the people can't be
silent. The law is equal for everybody and IF the Fabia's error is
similar to the Maximus' error, we must to have a similar opinion and
critice.

However, Diana, I disagree with a couple of your comments. First of
all Fabia Vera is not a Senator like Maximus. Secondly the
senatorial Moralty Commission is about Senators and not about the
other citizens. Thirdly when Maximus hurted me, the only way to
reach my IUSTICIA was trying a private trial against him. So I think
Fabia Vera wrong but the error is different by Maximus'. And Aedile
Scaurus is the only person could claim Iustitia by a private trial.

This is my perosnal and hopinable idea...

Valete bene
Fr. Apulus Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Diana Octavia Aventina
<sacerdosveneris@y...> wrote:
> Salve Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,
>
> <Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice
became socially
> <acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an obviously
serious and
> <intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow citizen in public.
>
> When Q Fabius remarked something totally stupid that Franciscus
Apulus urinated on his toga,
> everyone went crazy. But yet when Fabia Vera says 'I propose
Scaurus' to be sacrificed, then it is
> a matter of "oh she was kidding" "oh, she only forgot a comma".
>
> Two wrongs don't make a right, and I call for some even handedness
in Nova Roma not based on who
> says what and who is cozy offlist with whom, but on WHAT is said.
Favoritism is just fine when it
> comes to a vote, but when it comes to the Law, the blind-folded
Justicia is the Goddess that we
> should follow.
>
> Vale,
> Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23153 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
>Message: 24
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 22:22:02 +0200
> From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@...>
>Subject: Congratulations Titus Octavius Pius!
>
>Salve Congratulations Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, Amice!
>
>Congratulations and a happy birthday!!
>--


Salve,

That is something I can wholeheartedly say: from me too!!! Excellent
month you've chosen to born into!

Vale,
--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Quaestor
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23154 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Salve, excellent Constantinus,

Thanks by the remark. You help us a lot.

However, it is not clear. Perhaps I will consider to propose a law to
make more clear this case. Until it, on the law for the Plebis, I
will submit in the Comitia Populi as well and count with the
patrician good-sense. Dura lex, sed lex.

But that is why we legislative magistrates (consul, pretor and
tribune) are here. To propose things to the People for the better of
the Res Publica. And we can´t be guilt by any proposal, because the
last word is always of the People of the quirites.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > On NR, nowadays, due to the ordo proportion, I a
> > tribune, can call
> > only the Comitia Populi. Comitia Plebis only to
> > election
> >
> >
>
> Or to enact legislation that deals only with the
> internal procedures of the Comitis Plebis Tributa.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23155 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Salvete omnes,

Just a few points on the previous postings:

1) Anyone could make gramatical mistakes in punctuation including
lawyers. Anyway I thought Fabia Vera is an American Lawyer but
according to her profile, she is a writer living in Hibernia now.
Perhaps she was a little out of practice as I thought.

2) Diana, I remember when you ran for Quaestor you punched in a
wrong decimal on a calculation on one of your posts or something
like that and an opponent of yours foolishly jumped all over you
saying that if you were an accountant or had that accounting
background how could such a big mistake be made? How could you be a
Quaestor? This illustrates my point that any professional, even
lawyers can make errors or typos.

3)It seems to me that there is a great deal to be done in Nova Roma
according to all the posts about where we are going over the last
few weeks. I think our magistrates' time might be better spent
building Res Republica, attracting dedicated citizens, promotions
etc. rather than getting into these trials, quarrels and arguments
that just divide and demoralize people or put a bad taste in the
mouth of prospective new citizens anyway.

4)In my opinion a joke like the one being discussed may be off color
to some people but "most: religions I am familiar with do not have
the equivilent of a trial, hearing or excommunication when someone
jokes or makes a flippant remark about a member of the hierarchy. He
or she is usually told off or rebuked by other members and that is
that.

5) G. Iulius Scaurus is no sensitive shrinking violet. You see the
verbal fate many citizens have suffered when they have crossed
swords with him. If she or anyone displeases or offends him, I am
sure he is more than capable of sorting the situation out on his own
terms.



Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
wrote:
> Salvete Diana et Fusce,
> honestly I agree with Diana, if Fabia Vera wrong the people can't
be
> silent. The law is equal for everybody and IF the Fabia's error is
> similar to the Maximus' error, we must to have a similar opinion
and
> critice.
>
> However, Diana, I disagree with a couple of your comments. First
of
> all Fabia Vera is not a Senator like Maximus. Secondly the
> senatorial Moralty Commission is about Senators and not about the
> other citizens. Thirdly when Maximus hurted me, the only way to
> reach my IUSTICIA was trying a private trial against him. So I
think
> Fabia Vera wrong but the error is different by Maximus'. And
Aedile
> Scaurus is the only person could claim Iustitia by a private trial.
>
> This is my perosnal and hopinable idea...
>
> Valete bene
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Diana Octavia Aventina
> <sacerdosveneris@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,
> >
> > <Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice
> became socially
> > <acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an obviously
> serious and
> > <intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow citizen in public.
> >
> > When Q Fabius remarked something totally stupid that Franciscus
> Apulus urinated on his toga,
> > everyone went crazy. But yet when Fabia Vera says 'I propose
> Scaurus' to be sacrificed, then it is
> > a matter of "oh she was kidding" "oh, she only forgot a comma".
> >
> > Two wrongs don't make a right, and I call for some even
handedness
> in Nova Roma not based on who
> > says what and who is cozy offlist with whom, but on WHAT is
said.
> Favoritism is just fine when it
> > comes to a vote, but when it comes to the Law, the blind-folded
> Justicia is the Goddess that we
> > should follow.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23156 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Quintius Constantius, and
to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

> > This is indeed what the constitution says, though
> > the
> > various leges de comitia provide that vetoes may
> be
> > issued during contio, thus implying that they
> cannot
> > be issued after voting has begun.
>
> I don't belive that is the case....

Fair enough. It's a highly debatable question, and
having read your response I'm inclined to agree that
the implication isn't strong enough to have any force,
though I still personally believe that it was in the
mind of the drafters.

With your scenario of the senatusconsulta changing
green to red and red to green, I agree, so I shan't
quote it here.

> I do think that it would be unwise for the Tribunes
> to veto the final vote of a Comitia. Doing so would
> likely be suicidal to a future political career in
> Nova Roma. But since, to my knowledge, there is no
> mechanism for impeachment of a Tribune, and no
> requirement that a Tribune "must" run for any other
> office, who is to stop them?

I would expect, though I admit I can't think of any
historical examples, that a tribune is liable for
prosecution once his term of office has expired, as
with other magistrates; consequently no tribune can be
certain that he would get away with doing such a
thing. However, it would be simpler, as you imply (or
at least as I infer), to legislate to prohibit
tribunes from vetoing leges or plebiscita once enacted
(or indeed at any time after the polls open, as was
the case historically); I'd support such a measure.

> And what happens if we elect a full-slate of
> Tribunes at election time, and then three or more of
> them disappear? Wouldn't that in effect paralyze
> the
> Tribunes for the duration of that term?
>
> Is there any subsisting legislation that says if a
> magistrate/Tribune is absent for (X) length of time,
> the office is considered vacant? If not, should
> there
> be?

I don't think there is any such law, and again I would
support an effort to enact one. However, there are two
things to point out. The first is that it's clearly
the duty of every tribune to make sure that his
colleagues are performing their duties properly, and
therefore I would consider that a tribune who failed
to organise a by-election to replace a missing or
inactive colleague would be liable to prosecution for
failing to do so. The second (and I think this touches
on a point you raised in another message) is that
under current law the tribunician college need not be
paralysed by the failure of one or more of its members
to respond to a veto. The relevant Labienan law
provides that if "more tribuni plebis agree than
disagree with the use of intercessio in question, it
shall stand": so in the case of an even split, the
veto is overturned (and odd way round, but there we
are). But of course it's best to have a full
complement of active tribunes in the first place.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23157 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
A. Apollonius Cordus to L.

> I had to think about this for a while because I
> don't care for the
> arrogant tone and my first instinct was to tell you
> to "F" off.

It surprises me that one who chooses to advertise his
espousal of sardony in his cognomen should object to
the use of it toward him; but I accept that my tone
was more abrupt than was polite, and I apologise.

> While I defer to your knowledge of republican
> politics, I take
> umbrage at your insinuation that I am incapable of
> understanding
> written english.

Please note that I made no such insinuation. What I
suggested is that you had not read carefully what I
had written, for if you had done so I'm sure you would
have understood the difference between what I wrote
and what you responded to.

> ... Moral uprightness and competency
> are, at least in
> my opinon, absolute. Either one exhibits goodness
> of character and
> capability or one does not. It is subjective only
> in the measure
> that I allow it. If I trust someone enough to
> perform a certain
> duty, they either fulfill my expectations or fail
> and there is
> nothing exceptional or extraordinary about it.
>
> Pass or fail. Do, or do not. There is no try.

Again, please note that I made no mention of 'trying'.
I quite agree with you that trying to be good does not
equate to being good, though others would not agree
with us on that point.

I can further understand what you seem to be saying,
which is that you believe that people are either good
or bad and it is impossible for one good person to be
better or worse than another good person (may I
presume that you're a stoic?), though I have to say
that such a notion strikes me as absurd.

I am dumbfounded, however, by your denial of degrees
of competence. I accept that, with respect to a
particular task, a person or body may be said to be
either competent (i.e., he, she, or it meets the
minimum standards to perform the job adequately) or
incompetent; however, you seem to go further and to
deny that it is impossible for one competent person to
be more competent than another competent person. I
don't believe even an orthodox stoic would propose
such a thing.

If two persons both meet the minimum standards of
competence, they are both competent. I do not see how
this is incompatible with the idea that one could be
extraordinarily competent and the other merely
ordinarily competent (if we take 'ordinary' and
'extraordinary' at their logical, literal meanings,
i.e., 'more than most [competent] people' and 'no more
than most [competent] people, respectively).

I am a competent chess player, for I am competent to
play chess (i.e., I know the rules and have no
physical or mental disability which prevents me from
playing the game). Gary Kasparov is also a competent
chess player (he knows the rules and is physically and
mentally capable). But is it not reasonable to say
that his competence is extraordinary (he is capable of
playing faster, or of playing more games at a time, or
simly of playing to a fair higher standard than
ordinary chess players), whereas mine is not?





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23158 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: PS for Sardonicus
A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Cornelius Sardonicus, and
to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

Apologies for sending my last message with an
incomplete greeting. I had to look you up in the album
gentium to discover what your 'C' stood for, and I
continued to type the rest of the message while that
page was loading; then of course I forgot to complete
the greeting before pressing 'send'. No offence was meant.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23159 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1263
Salvete Luci Quinti omnesque

> 4. A majority of the Tribunes must agree with the
> veto (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.i.3) I find this to be
> troublesome. Does this mean a majority of Tribunes
> elected, or does it mean a majority of those who make
> a statement on the issue?

It means that more tribuni plebis must agree with the veto than disagree with
it. Take the scenario below:

Aulus vetoes something
Bibulus disagrees with the veto.
Curio agrees with the veto.
Darius disagrees.
Eusebius remains silent.

The veto does not stand, as two tribuni agree with it (issuance of a veto is an
implicit statement of agreement) and two disagree. Eusebius' silence is taken
for what it is--an abstention.

> The Tribunes must follow Constitutional procedure
> and Constitutional principles for the veto to be
> valid. But the Constitution itself allows the
> Tribunes to look outside of the Constitution for the
> justification of their vetoes.

Yes, exactly. And you're spot-on with the rest of the analysis in the post
I've just replied to as well.

Valete
T Labienus
Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23160 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
A. Apollonius Cordus to Quaestor Diana Octavia
Aventina, to Domitius Constantinus Fuscus, and to all
his fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

Quaestor Aventina wrote:

> Where are our Praetores? I demand an official
> response publicly stated on this list.

Constantinus Fuscus wrote:

> Now, that is an interesting question that for
> personal reasons I had to ask too,
> even if not over the mailing list. Didn't get a
> reply tho... where are they?

The praetors have no legal or, to my mind, moral duty
to pass unsolicited comment on the acceptability of
remarks made on this list. It is questionable whether
they have a legal duty to pass comment even when
requested, unless the request is in the form of a
petitio actionis.

If a praetor receives a petitio actionis he or she is
obliged to decide within 72 hours whether to allow the
action to proceed or not. It is not explicit in the
lex Salica Iudiciaria whether, in the latter case, the
praetor must inform any of the parties of his or her
decision. In the absence of such an explicit
statement, I think a failure by a praetor to respond
to a petitio may be taken as a dismissal, though it
would be far better for the praetor to inform the
parties of the decision, whatever it be, and a
prosecution against a former praetor for a failure to
do so might conceivably succeed.

In the event of the submissio of a petitio actionis
and the failure of a praetor to respond within 72
hours, one might also wish to consider whether it was
clear that one's petitio actionis was indeed a petitio
actionis. The lex says of the petitio, "The actor must
announce the action he is intending to exert to one of
the praetores ("editio actionis"), and then the actor
must ask the praetor to start the procedure ("petitio
actionis")". It is unclear whether the petitio must be
submitted to the praetor personally (as opposed to
posted on a list). Given all this, the petitioner
would be well advised to submit it personally and to
label it 'petitio actionis', to avoid any ambiguity.

Octavia Aventina continued:

> Q Fabius and L S Drusus were run through the wringer
> a few months ago over comments which were
> much more benign than proposing killing a fellow
> citizen. The voices of the Holier Than Thou 'You
> said something against the public moral values' club
> are dead silent now and even worse, certain
> citizens are even defending her statement with
> ridiculous feeble excuses for her like 'she forgot
> a comma'.

I can understand why you would feel frustrated by such
a lack of consistency, but I don't think you're likely
to get an answer from those you accuse of
inconsistency without naming them: unless there's some
official body called the 'holier than thou club', then
how are those people you're referring to to know
whether they are meant or not?

Still, since I'm writing, I'll save you the trouble of
saying whether you consider me part of that club
(though I'd still be interested to know) by
responding. I do not generally comment in public on
the remarks of others, however offensive they may be,
except when something strikes me as an issue of public
interest (for instance, if the remark repesents an
official action by a magistrate, such as a resignation
or a statement of policy, or if it could be
interpreted as such). I didn't comment on the incident
you refer to involving senators Maximus, Drusus, and
Caesar, because as far as I could see it was a private
matter among those gentlemen.

It could be argued, I suppose, that Fabia Vera Fausta
is a priestess and that her remark could have been
taken as a statement of policy in her official
capacity. Even if I were to accept this argument,
which I'm not inclined to do, I wouldn't feel within
my rights to comment since I'm not a practitioner of
the religio and therefore have no right to call an
officer of the religio to account: I am not a member
of her constituency. This is the same reason,
incidentally, for which I made no comment about your
resignation as governor of Gaul, and the same reason
for which I did not join in the general discussion of
who was best suited for the job in the first place.

As for whether suggesting that someone be killed is
socially acceptable, all I can say is that I
personally find it unacceptable. I think the more
realistic question is whether it is acceptable to joke
about killing someone, and in that case my view is
that it doesn't merit thunderous condemnation but is
nonetheless undesirable and to be avoided, both
because of the risk that it will be taken seriously
and because joking about killing people may, if done
too often and too freely, make the serious idea of
killing people more acceptable. If you would have
liked me to say so before now, then I can only say
that it didn't cross my mind that anyone would be
particularly interested in my views on such things.

If you want anything else from me personally on this
subject, please feel free to ask; but I'm hopeful that
your frustration was not directed at me in the first place.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23161 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
---Oh Corde!

No, not.....NOT, I will not play chess with you...such would be an act
of cognitive suicide on my part!!!.....no, no.....not the chess
board......no.....((((no!!!))))) ahhhhh

How about a good old fashioned round of snakes and ladders??

In good fun :)

Pompeia
(((Who'd whoop ya at Scrabble)



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to L.
>
> > I had to think about this for a while because I
> > don't care for the
> > arrogant tone and my first instinct was to tell you
> > to "F" off.
>
> It surprises me that one who chooses to advertise his
> espousal of sardony in his cognomen should object to
> the use of it toward him; but I accept that my tone
> was more abrupt than was polite, and I apologise.
>
> > While I defer to your knowledge of republican
> > politics, I take
> > umbrage at your insinuation that I am incapable of
> > understanding
> > written english.
>
> Please note that I made no such insinuation. What I
> suggested is that you had not read carefully what I
> had written, for if you had done so I'm sure you would
> have understood the difference between what I wrote
> and what you responded to.
>
> > ... Moral uprightness and competency
> > are, at least in
> > my opinon, absolute. Either one exhibits goodness
> > of character and
> > capability or one does not. It is subjective only
> > in the measure
> > that I allow it. If I trust someone enough to
> > perform a certain
> > duty, they either fulfill my expectations or fail
> > and there is
> > nothing exceptional or extraordinary about it.
> >
> > Pass or fail. Do, or do not. There is no try.
>
> Again, please note that I made no mention of 'trying'.
> I quite agree with you that trying to be good does not
> equate to being good, though others would not agree
> with us on that point.
>
> I can further understand what you seem to be saying,
> which is that you believe that people are either good
> or bad and it is impossible for one good person to be
> better or worse than another good person (may I
> presume that you're a stoic?), though I have to say
> that such a notion strikes me as absurd.
>
> I am dumbfounded, however, by your denial of degrees
> of competence. I accept that, with respect to a
> particular task, a person or body may be said to be
> either competent (i.e., he, she, or it meets the
> minimum standards to perform the job adequately) or
> incompetent; however, you seem to go further and to
> deny that it is impossible for one competent person to
> be more competent than another competent person. I
> don't believe even an orthodox stoic would propose
> such a thing.
>
> If two persons both meet the minimum standards of
> competence, they are both competent. I do not see how
> this is incompatible with the idea that one could be
> extraordinarily competent and the other merely
> ordinarily competent (if we take 'ordinary' and
> 'extraordinary' at their logical, literal meanings,
> i.e., 'more than most [competent] people' and 'no more
> than most [competent] people, respectively).
>
> I am a competent chess player, for I am competent to
> play chess (i.e., I know the rules and have no
> physical or mental disability which prevents me from
> playing the game). Gary Kasparov is also a competent
> chess player (he knows the rules and is physically and
> mentally capable). But is it not reasonable to say
> that his competence is extraordinary (he is capable of
> playing faster, or of playing more games at a time, or
> simly of playing to a fair higher standard than
> ordinary chess players), whereas mine is not?
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23162 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1260
Caius Curius Saturninus wrote:
> That is something I can wholeheartedly say: from me too!!!
> Excellent month you've chosen to born into!

Salve, Cai Curi Saturnine.

I thank you kindly, and refrain from mentioning the scent my nose is
picking up of another maychild. Indeed, May is one of the better months:
Warm enough that I can leave a window open during the night, cold enough
that I can breathe easily...at least, most days.

For the less murky and shadowy characters out there, May is still a nice
time...the first real warmth, the first flowers...and the end of winter
clothing. For a few months time, at least.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

--

"Qui desiderat bellum, praeparet bellum." - Vetinari
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23163 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Salvete Quirites, et salve Diana Octavia,

Diana writes:
> Regarding Fabia Vera and her statement proposing to kill a fellow
> citizen.

Woah! That sure got my attention, and sent me off on an hour long
review of the posts over the past few days. You may recall that I'm
currently not receiving the main list e-mail, and am instead reading
via the web interface. This will be the situation until I return from
Colorado at the end of next week.

> When has proposing killing a fellow citizen become socially
> acceptable in Nova Roma?

I don't think it's ever been socially acceptable.

> Where are our Praetores?

I've been trying to resolve that very question for a while now. I
shall have to address it at length, probably tomorrow morning.

Anyhow, to cut to the point of Diana's concern, I have now read Fabia
Vera's post which triggered this spate of replies, and the many
replies and counter-replies. My conclusions:

-- Fabia Vera's initial post, while obviously flippant and not
seriously intended, nevertheless expressed a degree of disrespect for
Gaius Iulius Scaurus which I find disturbing. I would very much
appreciate it if she were to post a full and sincere apology to the
People of Nova Roma for that post.

-- Several follow-up posts were at least as disrespectful. Of those
who posted, perhaps too quickly and in the heat of the moment, only
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus has shown the good grace to post a
retraction. I commend Decius Iunius for setting a good example, and
urge others to follow it.

Again, I ask all citizens who have issues they want me to be sure to
see to contact me directly in e-mail until I'm able to resume
receiving the mainlist e-mails on the 15th. I only have a limited
amount of time available for checking Nova Roma right now, and of
necessity I must skip over a lot of things.

My thanks to Diana Octavia for relabeling the Subject line so that it
came to my attention.

Valete Quirites,

-- Gn. Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23164 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - IV - Sella Curulis
Articles on Roman Government - IV - Sella Curulis

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

Sella Curûlis


The Latin term for the chair of office belonging to the curule
magistrates (consuls, praetors, curule aediles, dictator, magister
equitum, and flamen Dialis), and also to the emperors. It was of
ivory, without a back, and with curved legs, like those of a camp-
stool, so arranged that it could be folded up. The seat was of
plaited leather straps. The curule magistrates sat on this seat while
engaged in all official business, and also took it with them in war.

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.
http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.04.0062%3Aid%3Dsella-curulis



SEE YOU ON MONDAY!
L. ARMINIUS FAUSTUS TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23165 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:

> Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice became
socially
> acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an obviously
serious and
> intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow citizen in public. Or
maybe the days
> following that when he re-affirmed it showing actually pride in it,
sustained in
> his action by several cives, some of those being not among the least
in status
> and rank. Who knows?

That's Right, a Pontifex who has the duty to defend the Religio Romana
against attacks.

A Person who ignored several polite requests to remember that she was
posting about a subject that many Nova Romans and our Roman ancestors
considered to be a sacred Ritual of the Religio Romana and who
continued to use both a tone and phrases that many found demeaning,
which showed a total lack of respect for many followers of the Religio
Romana isn't some one who should be ignored, nor are they a person
deserving of respect.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23166 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Granddaughter
Ave,

I Just got some important news, important to me at least,

I Have a new Graddaughter!

Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23167 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
---
Congratulations Druse!

Heck I don't think I'll see a granddaughter...oh maybe....my sons are
still in their early teens, and you and I are well, at a relatively
even standing on the path of life....

Anyway, I know I was euphoric when they were born, so I can imagine
that you are delighted.

Anyway, grandpa, where are the commemorative cigars? I've been known
to smoke one on occasion :)

Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <drusus@b...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I Just got some important news, important to me at least,
>
> I Have a new Graddaughter!
>
> Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23168 From: alexious@earthlink.net Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Ave!

I have been complaining about double standards in Nova Roma for at least 3
years now. This is just another clear example of it.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Diana Octavia Aventina sacerdosveneris@...
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:03:56 +0100 (BST)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Justicia


<html><body>


<tt>
Salve Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,<BR>
<BR>
<Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice became
socially<BR>
<acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an obviously serious
and<BR>
<intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow citizen in public. <BR>
<BR>
When Q Fabius remarked something totally stupid that Franciscus Apulus
urinated on his toga,<BR>
everyone went crazy. But yet when Fabia Vera says 'I propose Scaurus' to be
sacrificed, then it is<BR>
a matter of "oh she was kidding"  "oh, she only forgot a comma". <BR>
<BR>
Two wrongs don't make a right, and I call for some even handedness in Nova
Roma not based on who<BR>
says what and who is cozy offlist with whom, but on WHAT is said.
Favoritism is just fine when it<BR>
comes to a vote, but when it comes to the Law, the blind-folded Justicia is
the Goddess that we<BR>
should follow.<BR>
<BR>
Vale,<BR>
Diana Octavia<BR>
</tt>


<br>

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23169 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: witness of priest appointments
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus S.P.D.:

As a member of the Comitia Curiata, I witness the following priest appointments:


Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus as Flamen Volturnalis,

Marcus Martianus Gangalius as Sodalis Salii

QVOD BONVM FAVSTVM FELIX FORTVNATVMQVE SIT POPVLO ROMANO QUIRITIBVS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23170 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Sardonicus" <sardonicus_@h...>
wrote:
> L C Sardonicus to Sep Fab Veria, felicitations.
>
> If it's a backalley joke, perhaps you should not relate it here.
>
> Be Well and Hearty,
> Sardonicus
>
>
> Salve Sardonice;
ages ago when I gave you a drubbing for wanting to talk about
Christianity on the ML it was due to my fearing this; that some
humourless git would make a big hue & cry etc...
But I was wrong to silence you and I publicly apologize; the point
being that free speech is far more important than avoiding the
aggravating fallout. So you are right,
vale Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23171 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
, nevertheless expressed a degree of disrespect for
> Gaius Iulius Scaurus which I find disturbing. I would very much
> appreciate it if she were to post a full and sincere apology to the
> People of Nova Roma for that post.
>
> Salve Consul;
I take your request in the impartial spirit it is given but I must
respectfully decline.
Why?
A. Scaurus implied that Fuscus and Apulus were racist, facists due to
his losing the legal argument concerning the religio. Insulting
people does not enhance the Religio.

B. in my opinion he deserved a humorous reminder about Concordia,
since I am a vegetarian against animal sacrifice & said so on the ML
I believed all would understand my point.

C. Finally and most importantly I will not apologize as Scaurus does
not deserve 'extra respect' do to being a Flamen and Pontiff: the
Religio is not a polytheistic version of Christianity.

I will now quote from John Scheid's "Roman Relgion"

"The term sacerdos...should not give the impression that there was
a caste of priests in Roman public and private religion....p.129

" What is more, ritual actions performed by magistrates or other
community leaders were no different from those made by priests."p.130

"Those who were called priest were not, in any case, 'men of god or
people devoted entirely to the service of the deity....As a general
rule, a priest was a citizen like any other."p.130

" the pontiffs advised on religious traditions and sacred law, when
asked to do so by magistrates, priests, or the Senate. They
controlled the sacra, sacred places and cemetaries. They established
the calendar...The flamines celebrated the cult and established the
presence of the god whose name they bore..." p.134

Now this is the handbook advocated by the Pontiffs as the guide to
the Relgio. The attitude of non-Religio cives is that sacerdos,
pontiffs, flamens, augurs are somehow special and deserve extra
respect. We do not, we earn any respect by comporting ourselves with
dignitas and conducting our respective cultus to the best of our
ability.

bene vale Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23172 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Justicia
Salve Sulla;
when directly after the Livia Hibernia affair Diana Octavia resigned
her governorship, she could have taken a real pounding,
also as sacerdos Veneris almost forgetting the Veneralia...
finally Drusus libelled my on the ML (did anyone notice? I did), I
reported it to the praetors & on reflection decided this would create
a tit-for-tat cycle and withdrew it.

Now if you or Octavia feel unhappy with the state of things and wish
to prosecute me under the Lex for blasphemy please go right ahead;
I'm no coward.
vale
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "alexious@e..." <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave!
>
> I have been complaining about double standards in Nova Roma for at
least 3
> years now. This is just another clear example of it.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23173 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1263
--- labienus@... wrote:
> Salvete Luci Quinti omnesque
>
> > 4. A majority of the Tribunes must agree with
> the
> > veto (Constitution, IV.A.7.a.i.3) I find this to
> be
> > troublesome. Does this mean a majority of
> Tribunes
> > elected, or does it mean a majority of those who
> make
> > a statement on the issue?
>
> It means that more tribuni plebis must agree with
> the veto than disagree with
> it. Take the scenario below:
>
> Aulus vetoes something
> Bibulus disagrees with the veto.
> Curio agrees with the veto.
> Darius disagrees.
> Eusebius remains silent.
>
> The veto does not stand, as two tribuni agree with
> it (issuance of a veto is an
> implicit statement of agreement) and two disagree.
> Eusebius' silence is taken
> for what it is--an abstention.
>

I hadn't reviewed the Lex Labiena de intercessione
until I was working on my last set of responses on
these Constitutional threads.

That law provides that those Tribunes who are silent
on the matter are considered to have abstained. My
concern was that if it was an absolute majority of the
elected Tribunes, that the Tribunes would often be
ineffective due to Tribunes beung elected and then
disappearing. Apparently it seems to be a frequent
occurance of elected magistrates disappearing without
notifying anyone. Hence my recent suggestion of
legislating that (x) amount of time without any
contact from a magistrate results in the office being
declared vacant.



> > The Tribunes must follow Constitutional
> procedure
> > and Constitutional principles for the veto to be
> > valid. But the Constitution itself allows the
> > Tribunes to look outside of the Constitution for
> the
> > justification of their vetoes.
>
> Yes, exactly. And you're spot-on with the rest of
> the analysis in the post
> I've just replied to as well.
>
>

I've been trying to point out that the Tribunes can
determine that a particular law, edict can be vetoed
by the Tribunes on the basis of it conflicting with
the letter or spirit of a previously enacted law. In
a such a case, they need not specify any particular
Constitutional provision being violated.

Lucius Quintius Constantius






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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23174 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
--- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
>
> > I do think that it would be unwise for the
> Tribunes
> > to veto the final vote of a Comitia. Doing so
> would
> > likely be suicidal to a future political career in
> > Nova Roma. But since, to my knowledge, there is
> no
> > mechanism for impeachment of a Tribune, and no
> > requirement that a Tribune "must" run for any
> other
> > office, who is to stop them?
>
> I would expect, though I admit I can't think of any
> historical examples, that a tribune is liable for
> prosecution once his term of office has expired, as
> with other magistrates; consequently no tribune can
> be
> certain that he would get away with doing such a
> thing.

This is something that has been troubling me. Are we
relying on a particular Nova Roman law in this matter,
or are we relying on the mos maiorum?

I had read a magistrate post the assertion that a
"curule" magistrate could not be prosecuted during
his/her term. Does this apply to all magistrates, or
only the curule magistrates?

If we are relying the mos maiorum for this concept,
I'm afraid I have to object on the matter. My
understanding of the ancient republican constitution
is that for most magistracies, there was a waiting
period after the end of the term before that
individual could candidate for a higher magistacy.
This provision does not exist in Nova Roman law. This
means that an individual could run for and be elected
to several successive magistacies, and thereby evade
trial for years. This offends my basic sense of
justice and accountability.

However, it would be simpler, as you imply
> (or
> at least as I infer), to legislate to prohibit
> tribunes from vetoing leges or plebiscita once
> enacted
> (or indeed at any time after the polls open, as was
> the case historically); I'd support such a measure.
>

I hadn't thought of this. I appreciate your
bringing it up. If a comitia legislates that the
Tribunes cannot veto a law properly passed by the
comitiae, that would be an acceptable limitation of
the power under the terms of the Constitution.



> > And what happens if we elect a full-slate of
> > Tribunes at election time, and then three or more
> of
> > them disappear? Wouldn't that in effect paralyze
> > the
> > Tribunes for the duration of that term?
> >
> > Is there any subsisting legislation that says if
> a
> > magistrate/Tribune is absent for (X) length of
> time,
> > the office is considered vacant? If not, should
> > there
> > be?
>
> I don't think there is any such law, and again I
> would
> support an effort to enact one. However, there are
> two
> things to point out. The first is that it's clearly
> the duty of every tribune to make sure that his
> colleagues are performing their duties properly, and
> therefore I would consider that a tribune who failed
> to organise a by-election to replace a missing or
> inactive colleague would be liable to prosecution
> for
> failing to do so.

I would also support an effort to declare offices
vacant after a certain period of time has passed with
no contact from the magistrate.

However, your suggestion of prosecuting a Tribune
for failing to call a by-election needs to be taken in
context of your earlier statement that a Tribune can
only be prosecuted after their term has ended.
Nothing could be done during the term in question.



Lucius Quintius Constantius




__________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23175 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
--- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@...> wrote:
>
> I do not understand, with respect, where you think
> the Tribunes might
> have to look outside the constitution for a veto?
> They are sworn by
> oath to protect and defend the constitution, to
> protect the
> constitutional rights of citizens through
> intercessio when and if
> necessary. If they feel that something is amiss
> constitutionally,
> and/or the procedures of the Tribunate is not as
> well aligned with
> their constitutional duties, they go through proper
> comitiae to change it.
>
>
>
> But they must veto within the parameters of the
> written constitution,
> or what they can reasonably interpret as the
> 'spirit' of the
> constitution, which allows some wiggle room, but it
> has to be
> reasonable 'wiggle room', and such that can be
> explained.
>

The Tribunes can veto something if they feel it
contradicts the "letter" or "spirit" of a law or
edict, regardless of the fact that the newly-issued
action, lex, edict, etc. is technically constitutional
as well. The fact that the Constitution specifies
"spirit" of the enactment of question allows for a
very broad analysis and highly subjective opinion.


> All leges, including that which you present in your
> post below, are
> either 'pursuant' to the existing constitution
> (atleast theoretically)
> or if they change the constitution, must be ratified
> by the Senate
> 2/3. As of this date, the constitution still reads
> that Tribs veto
> actions of magistrates, senatus consulta, decreta,
> etc. etc. except
> the interrex or dictator.
>
> Since the Tribunes get their power from the
> constitution, how can they
> justifiably circumvent by providing intercessio
> other than where they
> can explain where its against the letter or spirit
> of same?


Because it can be justified by the fact that the
enactment, action, in question is against the "spirit"
of a previous constitutionally-enacted enactment,
action. The Constitution itself allows the Tribunes
to make this type of analysis. I am not saying that a
Tribune can justify a veto by saying, "Because I feel
like it." It must be based on the Constitution or
some other form of legislation.


They must
> address either situations: unconstitutional or
> 'against the spirit of
> the constitution'..they may not look outside that,
> as I see it.
>


See above.

Has this sufficiently clarified my position?


Lucius Quintius Constantius





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23176 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Witnessing the new Priests!!
Salvete Quirites;
I am proud to be witnessed with my fellow colleages Tubertus and
Artorus, may the gods look favorablly on our pious desire to restore
the rites.
On another note I would like to mention reality & the Religio.
We have nothing to fear, polytheism is making great strides in many
countries.
In America there are more polytheists than Episcopalians (6 mil. I
believe)
In Cananda wicca/paganism is the fastest growing relgion, the same
goes for Australia, where it is determined that educated women
between 18-35 are its majority supporters. Polytheism is popular in
Great Britain too.
In Hibernia where I live, there are 11 buddhist groups actively
operating, in my county market town of Mullingar (no metropolis,
check it on a map) the public library contains books on Egyptian
religion, and 6 books on polytheism/wicca, desribing in detail how to
start covens, work spells etc.
Except for unfortunate pockets of fundamentalism, especially the
U.S midwest where Scaurus lives, we are free, untrammelled; we do not
need a McCarthyesqe attitude of suspicion.
I was very fortunate to find out about my priesthood in time to
celebrate the Megalesia; let us go forward in confidence, and
enjoyment (yes, who wants to be a Puritanical polytheist) I truly
believe that the Relgio will grow due to our devotion and also to its
appeal to our intellect and freedom.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
sacerdos Matris deum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23177 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> , nevertheless expressed a degree of disrespect for
> > Gaius Iulius Scaurus which I find disturbing. I would very much
> > appreciate it if she were to post a full and sincere apology to
the
> > People of Nova Roma for that post.
> >
> > Salve Consul;
> I take your request in the impartial spirit it is given but I
>must respectfully decline.

That is a mistake. Your reasons are excuses trying to justify a
stubborn emotional reaction.

> Why?
> A. Scaurus implied that Fuscus and Apulus were racist, facists due
>to his losing the legal argument concerning the religio. Insulting
> people does not enhance the Religio.

For one, Scaurus didn't lose any arguments on this list that I saw
recently, nor I suspect that you saw. He deftly put the Religio and
constitutional arguments to rest, if that 's the one you are
referring to. If you are referring to the discussion he had with
Fuscus and indirectly with Apulus over Italian politics, that had
little or nothing to do with the Religio, so I'm not sure what that
has to do with your point.

> B. in my opinion he deserved a humorous reminder about Concordia,
> since I am a vegetarian against animal sacrifice & said so on the
>ML I believed all would understand my point.

He deserved it why? Because he disagrees with you over yet another
point and he handily dealt with the "animal sacrifice is against the
tradition of King Numa" position you favor? Because he disagrees
with you and got the better of your position that makes him
deserving of humorous jokes about becoming a human sacrifice?

> C. Finally and most importantly I will not apologize as Scaurus
>does not deserve 'extra respect' do to being a Flamen and Pontiff:
>the Religio is not a polytheistic version of Christianity.

No, it is not but Flamens and Pontiffs are representatives of the
state and the state religion--as are magistrates. These are positions
of special responsibility, as are magistrates. It is disrespectful to
the state and the Religio to make jokes about a ritual killing of
someone in that position, escpecially in light of the recent heated
discussion of sacrifice and the importance of sacrifice to the
Religio.

Good Gods, it's common sense and courtesy not to go around making
such jokes about ANYONE no matter what their position. This was the
weakest of your points and you put it in chief place.

> I will now quote from John Scheid's "Roman Relgion"
>
> "The term sacerdos...should not give the impression that there
>was a caste of priests in Roman public and private religion....p.129

And? Doesn't help your position.

> " What is more, ritual actions performed by magistrates or other
> community leaders were no different from those made by
>priests."p.130

And? Doesn't help your position.

> "Those who were called priest were not, in any case, 'men of god
>or people devoted entirely to the service of the deity....As a
>general rule, a priest was a citizen like any other."p.130

And? Doesn't help your position.

> " the pontiffs advised on religious traditions and sacred law, when
> asked to do so by magistrates, priests, or the Senate. They
> controlled the sacra, sacred places and cemetaries. They
>established
> the calendar...The flamines celebrated the cult and established the
> presence of the god whose name they bore..." p.134

Yet again: And? Doesn't help your position. I hope you didn't waste
your time typing these but instead cut and paste them, because they
don't help you prove that making comments such as you did was
justified. Scheid's is a great book but doesn 't justify your
behavior against any citizen.

> Now this is the handbook advocated by the Pontiffs as the guide to
> the Relgio. The attitude of non-Religio cives is that sacerdos,
> pontiffs, flamens, augurs are somehow special and deserve extra
> respect. We do not, we earn any respect by comporting ourselves
>with dignitas and conducting our respective cultus to the best of
>our ability.

All of which Scaurus has done in his time in NR and something you are
NOT doing by posting this list of excuses for poor behavior.

You were wrong, do as the consul requested--admit you were wrong,
apologize and move on rather than trample on your dignitas further.

Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23178 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Salve Druse,

Although I ahve been a thorn on our side for times immemorial I cannot help
feeling happy for you. May the gods bless this new soul.

Optime vale

Moravius Laureatus

In a message dated 07/05/04 18:36:03 GMT Daylight Time,
drusus@... writes:

> Ave,
>
> I Just got some important news, important to me at least,
>
> I Have a new Graddaughter!
>
> Drusus
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23179 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ...Changing this to Tribune Interce
---


Salve Quintius:

Yes, now that I understand fully where you are coming from, I think we
are pretty much saying the same things, in different ways and in using
different examples.

You said somewhere, and I didn't address this, that a Tribune can veto
a piece of legislation is one contradicts the other. I am in
agreement with this also in the case of an edictum or in some cases a
Senatus consultum being in contradiction from a lex voted in by
comitia, adopted as law by due parameters.

For example, I amended the list guidelines the year I was praetor, and
I stipulated that languages other than English could be used, but I
had to make clear that this did not contravene the prevailing Lex
Cornelia, which states that 'official' stuff, ie edictum, etc. must be
in either English or Latin. Otherwise, my stuff could have lawfully
received the boot.

But herein, we are still acting within constitutional parameters, or
the spirit of the constitution, and yes, that gives Tribunes some
reasonable leeway.

I am more in agreement with you than not, and I understand fully the
points you are trying to make.

Conversations like this often get very convoluted,with various persons
contributing, and in this, I think we dwell on certain points, ignore
others (like your point about the two varying pieces of legislation)
and that somehow can get interpreted as disagreement.

Valete,
Po


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I do not understand, with respect, where you think
> > the Tribunes might
> > have to look outside the constitution for a veto?
> > They are sworn by
> > oath to protect and defend the constitution, to
> > protect the
> > constitutional rights of citizens through
> > intercessio when and if
> > necessary. If they feel that something is amiss
> > constitutionally,
> > and/or the procedures of the Tribunate is not as
> > well aligned with
> > their constitutional duties, they go through proper
> > comitiae to change it.
> >
> >
> >
> > But they must veto within the parameters of the
> > written constitution,
> > or what they can reasonably interpret as the
> > 'spirit' of the
> > constitution, which allows some wiggle room, but it
> > has to be
> > reasonable 'wiggle room', and such that can be
> > explained.
> >
>
> The Tribunes can veto something if they feel it
> contradicts the "letter" or "spirit" of a law or
> edict, regardless of the fact that the newly-issued
> action, lex, edict, etc. is technically constitutional
> as well. The fact that the Constitution specifies
> "spirit" of the enactment of question allows for a
> very broad analysis and highly subjective opinion.
>
>
> > All leges, including that which you present in your
> > post below, are
> > either 'pursuant' to the existing constitution
> > (atleast theoretically)
> > or if they change the constitution, must be ratified
> > by the Senate
> > 2/3. As of this date, the constitution still reads
> > that Tribs veto
> > actions of magistrates, senatus consulta, decreta,
> > etc. etc. except
> > the interrex or dictator.
> >
> > Since the Tribunes get their power from the
> > constitution, how can they
> > justifiably circumvent by providing intercessio
> > other than where they
> > can explain where its against the letter or spirit
> > of same?
>
>
> Because it can be justified by the fact that the
> enactment, action, in question is against the "spirit"
> of a previous constitutionally-enacted enactment,
> action. The Constitution itself allows the Tribunes
> to make this type of analysis. I am not saying that a
> Tribune can justify a veto by saying, "Because I feel
> like it." It must be based on the Constitution or
> some other form of legislation.
>
>
> They must
> > address either situations: unconstitutional or
> > 'against the spirit of
> > the constitution'..they may not look outside that,
> > as I see it.
> >
>
>
> See above.
>
> Has this sufficiently clarified my position?
>
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23180 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Ave Omnes

>> A. Scaurus implied that Fuscus and Apulus were racist, facists due
>>to his losing the legal argument concerning the religio. Insulting
>> people does not enhance the Religio.
>
> For one, Scaurus didn't lose any arguments on this list that I saw
> recently, nor I suspect that you saw. He deftly put the Religio and
> constitutional arguments to rest, if that 's the one you are
> referring to.

Did he? I see the discussion about the Constitution continuing even now, on
here and on NRL, and considering the discussion seem to be cantered, on
here, about how to defend in the best way the letter of the Constitution and
whether the tribunician veto is enough for that or not, I'd say that means
that the general discussion about whether the Constitution is supreme or not
was won by the legitimist, or "legal" if you prefer, instance.

> If you are referring to the discussion he had with
> Fuscus and indirectly with Apulus over Italian politics, that had
> little or nothing to do with the Religio, so I'm not sure what that
> has to do with your point.

Umm, lesse, maybe her point was that Scaurus started the analysis of the
Italian politics as the consequence of the reaction of Apulus to another
comment by Scaurus about myself living on the Mons Sacer and that the
harshness of his point of view was related to the frustration of not finding
good arguments in the main discussion about the Constitution and it's
supremacy. I think Fabia even suggested that Scaurus saying that most
Italians are fascists as they elected a prime minister who had fascists
joining the government (which is inaccurate anyway) and uncultured as they
do not care enough about their archaeological sites was meant to
delegitimate Fabius' and my own figure and positions in the respective
threads. Makes sense? Fabia Vera, please correct me if I interpreted your
point in a wrong way.

Incidentally, if I may, I would like to deny that the main thread was about
the Religio, it was meant and was kept (at least by most of the participants
and myself) about the Constitution. If some acts taken regarding, directly o
indirectly, the Religio appear to be unconstitutional and are quoted as
examples, doesn't mean that the thread is about the Religio.

Vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23181 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
>
> That is a mistake. Your reasons are excuses trying to justify a
> stubborn emotional reaction.

1. "stubborn, emotional" buzzwords before you begin to analyse my
discussion; poor logic.

>
> > that had
> little or nothing to do with the Religio, so I'm not sure what
that
> has to do with your point.

2. Does Scaurus represent the Religio or not? If he does & throws out
terms like fascist and racist to the Itali, he makes an incredibly
bad impresssion. At least I feel ashamed perhaps you do not.

>.
>
> He deserved it why?
1. he asked my privately not to argue on the ML, then he does so, I
reminded him of his advice to me thus the remark about Concordia.

Because he disagrees with you over yet another
> point and he handily dealt with the "animal sacrifice is against
the
> tradition of King Numa" position
2. Nope this is a red herring, dragging in an old argument.
Pontifex Graecus's post make the argument for King Numa's vegetarian
sacrifice, the P.M agrees as well, I'm perfectly fine to agree with
Graecus and the P.M
>
> > > No, it is not but Flamens and Pontiffs are representatives of
the
> state and the state religion--as are magistrates. These are
positions
> of special responsibility, as are magistrates.

1. True Scaurus is a Flamen, Pontifex and Curule Aedile; but he
was speaking not in his magisterial capacity but as a plain civis in
this discussion.
2. This was my argument when Modius as Tribune Plebis privately
asked me to cease arguing. I obeyed as he wrote in his official
capacity. Scaurus did not.

It is disrespectful to
> the state and the Religio to make jokes about a ritual killing of
> someone in that position, escpecially in light of the recent heated
> discussion of sacrifice and the importance of sacrifice to the
> Religio.
>
1. Sorry it would only be disrespecful if a religious or state
ceremony were going on. Otherwise we are all cives in the forum, if
you can laugh about this in the BA and be outraged on the ML I won't
call you a hypocrite...

> Good Gods, it's common sense and courtesy not to go around making
> such jokes about ANYONE no matter what their position. This was the
> weakest of your points and you put it in chief place.
>
1. It is about free speech, I apologized to Sardonicus over this very
thing when I asked him not to discuss Christianity on the ML. If I as
a strong supporter of the Religio cannot make a joke then there is no
free speech in Nova Roma. I will defend this to the end.


but doesn 't justify your
> behavior against any citizen.
>
1. You contradict yourself you told me Scaurus as Flamen and
magistrate deserved special respect, now you say I cannot chastise,
joke with any civis?
>
All of which Scaurus has done in his time in NR

1.Scaurus has done a lot in his position as Curule Aedile and Flamen
and Pontifex. But I certainly can disagree with him on the ML & his
opinions and those of Astur, Palladius and a host of others.
>
> You were wrong, do as the consul requested--admit you were wrong,
> apologize and move on rather than trample on your dignitas further.
>
1.As I said I will not apologize as Scaurus does not deserve special
treatment. I apologized to Modius, Sardonicus and others in the past.
2.
You seem to be entirely ignoring the issue of free speech. The
Relgio is not to be used to gag the cives. This attitude has nothing
to do with Roma Antiqua, unlike you I provided chapter and verse,
kindly do the same.

> vale Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23182 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
. I think Fabia even suggested that Scaurus saying that most
> Italians are fascists as they elected a prime minister who had
fascists
> joining the government (which is inaccurate anyway) and uncultured
as they
> do not care enough about their archaeological sites was meant to
> delegitimate Fabius' and my own figure and positions in the
respective
> threads. Makes sense? Fabia Vera, please correct me if I
interpreted your
> point in a wrong way.

Salve Domiti Constantine;
that is exactly what I meant!
>
doesn't mean that the thread is about the Religio.

I also think some people cannot undestand the culture of lawyers;
Fuscus & Cordus (who has a legal mind) can discuss & analyse the
words of the Consitution, without their opinions affecting the
reality of and acceptance of the Relgio.
I feel the same way, I avoided this argument being both a lawyer
and a member of the Religio, but in retrospect I was wrong not to
discuss it. We are mature enough at NR to have a purely intellectual
discussion. Otherwise we will descend into a twilight McCarthyism.
bene valete
Sp.Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23183 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Excellent news Drusus!

Congradulations!

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/7/2004 1:22:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drusus@... writes:

> I Just got some important news, important to me at least,
>
> I Have a new Graddaughter!
>
> Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23184 From: lanius117@aol.com Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: New citizen
G. Lanius Falco Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites

As Propraetor of Nova Britannia, I wish to announce the newest citizen of our
fair province, Euphemia Cassia Mercuria, of Regionis Maine. Please join me
in extending a warm welcome.

Valete,

G. Lanius Falco
*****************************************************
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus Nova Britannia
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Paterfamilias Gens Lania


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23185 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
L C Sardonicus addresses everyone and Lucius Arminicus Fuscus
specifically. Oh yeah, greetings. Did I get all the names right?

"Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice became
socially acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an
obviously serious and intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow
citizen in public."

If the shoe fits... :)

(Please note that I put the smiley face in to illustrate how
ridiculous it is to insult someone and then append a smiley face, as
if doing so puts your comment in a non-serious and unintentional
light. Just kidding, dude.)

I, also, demand an official statement on the unnecessarily insulting
and abusive posts to this list. Perhaps moderation is necessary for
slightest infraction; providing that we have someone with the time
and energy to moderate this BS.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23186 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
Salvete Lucius Iulius Sulla et Omnes Nova Roma:

I am very pleased and encouraged by the fact that Lucius Iulius Sulla,
despite having been marginally defeated in the last Quaestor bi
election, has shown the confidence and the courage to dust himself
off, and continue in his endeavors to serve the republic as Quaestor.

It is indeed not comforting to lose an election; it takes firmitus to
continue on, despite this.

As I supported you in the last election, Lucius Iulius, I continue to
support you. You have been enthusiastically involved in your
provincia activities well before I had the opportunity to get to know
you, through working with you on the Magna Mater initiatives, and
projects within the cohortes of Curule Aedile Marcus Iulius Perusianus.

You promote your provincia and Nova Roma as a whole through additional
initiatives in your project "Interview the Experts", which adds the
important element of academia, and serves to extend the hand of our
Republic to a macronational venue with an interest in the culture and
historical aspects of Rome....you are well in line with the mission of
Sodalitas Egressus.

Quirites, you may ask, but whatever does this have to do with money,
which is what a Quaestor handles? Well, Lucius Iulius has handled
funds responsibly. In addition to the above, he recently, secured
the opportunity for a presentation in his home town on the Magna Mater
project to the Rotary Club Junior, in which a donation was given by
these young people, to the Magna Mater Fund.

The most important element, I believe, above and beyond universal math
skills, in which he has shown through my knowledge of him to be quite
competant is the degree and sincerity of his commitment.

Further, as an illustration to this commitment to Nova Roma, Lucius
Iulius, traveling in capacity of other affairs, had the opportunity to
recently meet with citizens in the U.S. It is good to know that
wherever you travel, chances are you will easily meet up with a
citizen of NR.

As you continue, Lucius Iulius Sulla, to demonstrate such
extraordinary commitment to serving the republic, I shall continue to
offer you my support, and I will be thinking of you at the cista come
election time.

Buona fortuna....Sulla for Quaestor

Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23187 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Ave Druse! Amice! My congratulations. What an exciting time this must
be for you.

Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I Just got some important news, important to me at least,
>
> I Have a new Graddaughter!
>
> Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23188 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutional issues
Salve Pompeia Cornelia

In addition to what has been said about the Tribunes , they are also given the task in the constitution to
"To administer the law" and it will be up to a majority of the Tribunes to decide what that entails and how it will manifest itself.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs


----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_cornelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 1:04 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchanalibus


---Salvete L. Quintius et Omnes:

I am with you in that we must go by Nova Roma law, although the
capacities of the Ancient Tribunes are certainly worth entertaining,
the final analysis is that there are still differences between Nova
Roman law and the Laws of Antiquita and the former must be considered
with respect to Tribune powers. As traditional as we would like to
remain where possible, there will always be differences.

Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the constitution, the
Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of the constitution as
its criteria for intercessio, no?

Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the 'actions' of a
Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate, or to nix the
current schedule in favour of a new one, for some odd reason? They
must follow constitutional parameters...they simply cannot veto it for
reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not fair'...

And with respect to the Tribune veto...it was actually only 48 hours
at one time, and it was increased to 72 hours on the very reasoning
you are giving us. As for revisiting it, I think that's a good idea.
This is not the only job of the Tribunes, it is coupled with
macronational obligations. And, I believe the 'would like' of the
original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma, in
keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?

I am enjoying these threads tremendously, by the way.

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > Pompeia: my pleasure
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > With a bad edict the time frame is just one year
> > and unless a
> > magistrate from the following year keeps it it will
> > die at the end of
> > the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would
> > become subject to
> > the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see
> > the error that
> > their predecessor missed and would veto the edict
> > until it was fixed.
> >
> > Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being
> > adopted otherwise it
> > is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and
> > subject to
> > intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of
> > edicta is the Lex
> > Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium
> > :)
> > >
> > > Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes
> > veto such as Senatus
> > consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
> > the comitia we have
> > a few problems. According to those I have talked to
> > in NR the Tribunes
> > of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the
> > power to veto
> > anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was
> > passed. Action would
> > have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a
> > proposed action or
> > law but not after it was adopted .
> >
> > Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for
> > the following:
> > You may veto actions right, according to the
> > NovaRoma Constitution.
> > If you found that the actions of a magistrate were
> > based on a lex, but
> > that he was not applying the lex properly in the
> > justification of his
> > actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto
> > his actions in that
> > they are against the language of the lex, , in other
> > words, illegally
> > applying the lex. You are not alone in this
> > scenerio though...he
> > could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So
> > I understand your
> > thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I
> > am not sure about
> > your totally inability to veto something post
> > comitia...you may veto
> > the unconstitutional misapplication of the
> > legislation.
> >
> > Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it
> > would be very
> > important to lobby for repromulgation.
> >
> >
>
> I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
> the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
> could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
> final vote of the Comitiae.
>
> However, the situation in NR is different. The
> Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
> to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
> to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
> it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
> wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> constitutional.
>
> I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
> the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
> solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
> least until the Monday following
> approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
> review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
> all so privileged as to be able to have
> Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23189 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
L C Sardonicus, with appreciation for his insightful posts,
addresses A. Apollonius Cordus and everyone else who feels that my
words are worth reading.

You said, "I am dumbfounded, however, by your denial of degrees
of competence. I accept that, with respect to a
particular task, a person or body may be said to be
either competent (i.e., he, she, or it meets the
minimum standards to perform the job adequately) or
incompetent; however, you seem to go further and to
deny that it is impossible for one competent person to
be more competent than another competent person. I
don't believe even an orthodox stoic would propose
such a thing."

My thoughts exactly. My comments were related to a particular task,
that of a senate with responsibilities that required performance of
their duties as a constitutional watchdog. In my opinion,
performance of duties as assigned, competently and with moral
conciousness is expected, not extraordinary.

For instance, you have a degree of competency with the english
language that escapes me. I fully admit to having to consider my
words in order to get my meaning across. However, I correspond as
an individual and not from a mandate from the masses. Therefore, my
degree of competency in communication is relevant only when I fail
in expressing myself adequately.

The senate, if mandated by the masses to perform constitutional
oversight, will pass or fail in their duties. I, as an individual,
have the luxury of being incoherent as long as I don't care that
people perceive me that way. The senate, in the context of my
perception of our discussion, does not.

I don't understand how you can misunderstand my stoic view of things
unless you are transferring your own epicurean stance. And that, mi
amice, is an example of my sardonic nature.

(Incorrect grammar and typographical errors are entirely the fault
of L C Sardonicus' typist.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23190 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: PS for Sardonicus
L C Sardonicus, to A. Appollonius Cordus and to all our fellow-
citizens and raptors, greetings.

No problem, dude.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Cornelius Sardonicus, and
> to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> Apologies for sending my last message with an
> incomplete greeting. I had to look you up in the album
> gentium to discover what your 'C' stood for, and I
> continued to type the rest of the message while that
> page was loading; then of course I forgot to complete
> the greeting before pressing 'send'. No offence was meant.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23191 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
P to K4

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> ---Oh Corde!
>
> No, not.....NOT, I will not play chess with you...such would be an
act
> of cognitive suicide on my part!!!.....no, no.....not the chess
> board......no.....((((no!!!))))) ahhhhh
>
> How about a good old fashioned round of snakes and ladders??
>
> In good fun :)
>
> Pompeia
> (((Who'd whoop ya at Scrabble)
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > A. Apollonius Cordus to L.
> >
> > > I had to think about this for a while because I
> > > don't care for the
> > > arrogant tone and my first instinct was to tell you
> > > to "F" off.
> >
> > It surprises me that one who chooses to advertise his
> > espousal of sardony in his cognomen should object to
> > the use of it toward him; but I accept that my tone
> > was more abrupt than was polite, and I apologise.
> >
> > > While I defer to your knowledge of republican
> > > politics, I take
> > > umbrage at your insinuation that I am incapable of
> > > understanding
> > > written english.
> >
> > Please note that I made no such insinuation. What I
> > suggested is that you had not read carefully what I
> > had written, for if you had done so I'm sure you would
> > have understood the difference between what I wrote
> > and what you responded to.
> >
> > > ... Moral uprightness and competency
> > > are, at least in
> > > my opinon, absolute. Either one exhibits goodness
> > > of character and
> > > capability or one does not. It is subjective only
> > > in the measure
> > > that I allow it. If I trust someone enough to
> > > perform a certain
> > > duty, they either fulfill my expectations or fail
> > > and there is
> > > nothing exceptional or extraordinary about it.
> > >
> > > Pass or fail. Do, or do not. There is no try.
> >
> > Again, please note that I made no mention of 'trying'.
> > I quite agree with you that trying to be good does not
> > equate to being good, though others would not agree
> > with us on that point.
> >
> > I can further understand what you seem to be saying,
> > which is that you believe that people are either good
> > or bad and it is impossible for one good person to be
> > better or worse than another good person (may I
> > presume that you're a stoic?), though I have to say
> > that such a notion strikes me as absurd.
> >
> > I am dumbfounded, however, by your denial of degrees
> > of competence. I accept that, with respect to a
> > particular task, a person or body may be said to be
> > either competent (i.e., he, she, or it meets the
> > minimum standards to perform the job adequately) or
> > incompetent; however, you seem to go further and to
> > deny that it is impossible for one competent person to
> > be more competent than another competent person. I
> > don't believe even an orthodox stoic would propose
> > such a thing.
> >
> > If two persons both meet the minimum standards of
> > competence, they are both competent. I do not see how
> > this is incompatible with the idea that one could be
> > extraordinarily competent and the other merely
> > ordinarily competent (if we take 'ordinary' and
> > 'extraordinary' at their logical, literal meanings,
> > i.e., 'more than most [competent] people' and 'no more
> > than most [competent] people, respectively).
> >
> > I am a competent chess player, for I am competent to
> > play chess (i.e., I know the rules and have no
> > physical or mental disability which prevents me from
> > playing the game). Gary Kasparov is also a competent
> > chess player (he knows the rules and is physically and
> > mentally capable). But is it not reasonable to say
> > that his competence is extraordinary (he is capable of
> > playing faster, or of playing more games at a time, or
> > simly of playing to a fair higher standard than
> > ordinary chess players), whereas mine is not?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> > your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23192 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Granddaughter
Ave,

That is wonderful news! Spoil her like a proper FOG should.

Vale,
Sardo (who will hopefully and patiently wait another ten years
before he can share Drusus' joy)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I Just got some important news, important to me at least,
>
> I Have a new Graddaughter!
>
> Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23193 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: And when everything else fails... *PRAETORES READ* (was R: [Nov
L C Sardonicus, who is striving to get this Roman letter writing
down for no apparent reason, to Sp. Fabia Vera and no one else.

While I appreciate your apology, it confuses me. Your apology is
uncharacteristic of a strong-willed and opinionated woman such as
yourself. I will, however, leave it die at this...and I'll still
smooch you on the cheek if we ever meet in person. You faustian,
you.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Sardonicus"
<sardonicus_@h...>
> wrote:
> > L C Sardonicus to Sep Fab Veria, felicitations.
> >
> > If it's a backalley joke, perhaps you should not relate it here.
> >
> > Be Well and Hearty,
> > Sardonicus
> >
> >
> > Salve Sardonice;
> ages ago when I gave you a drubbing for wanting to talk about
> Christianity on the ML it was due to my fearing this; that some
> humourless git would make a big hue & cry etc...
> But I was wrong to silence you and I publicly apologize; the
point
> being that free speech is far more important than avoiding the
> aggravating fallout. So you are right,
> vale Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23194 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1264
Salvete Luci Quinti omnesque

> That law provides that those Tribunes who are silent
> on the matter are considered to have abstained. My
> concern was that if it was an absolute majority of the
> elected Tribunes, that the Tribunes would often be
> ineffective due to Tribunes beung elected and then
> disappearing.

Yes. It was exactly that concern which led Fl Vedius and I to conclude
that silence should be an abstention, so that the college of tribuni
wouldn't be paralyzed by the unseen loss of a member or two.

> Apparently it seems to be a frequent
> occurance of elected magistrates disappearing without
> notifying anyone. Hence my recent suggestion of
> legislating that (x) amount of time without any
> contact from a magistrate results in the office being
> declared vacant.

This is not a bad idea at all. Note that it may be unconstitutional in
the case of the ordinarii, however.

Constitution, IV.A:
Should one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his duties, that
magistrate may be removed by a law originating in the comitia that
elected him.

I reat that to mean that the comitia that elected a given derelict
magistrate must be convened to enact a lex to remove that magistrate
each and every time the problem occurs. I suppose that a loose
interpretation of the sentence would allow such a lex to pass; that's a
matter for the college of tribuni plebis to decide.

> I've been trying to point out that the Tribunes can
> determine that a particular law, edict can be vetoed
> by the Tribunes on the basis of it conflicting with
> the letter or spirit of a previously enacted law. In
> a such a case, they need not specify any particular
> Constitutional provision being violated.

This is correct. The thinking is that the tribuni plebis ought to be
able to protect cives against acts of government which are merely
illegal, as well as those which are unconstitutional. The hope is that
the power will not be easily abused, since the college of tribuni must
agree (or at least not disagree strongly) in order to successfully use
their veto.

Valete
T Labienus Fortuantus
--
"Use every man after his desert, and who shall escape whipping? Use
them after your own honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more
merit is in your bounty."
-Shakespeare
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23195 From: O. Flavius Pompeius Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: New citizen
Salve,

Welcome Cassia Mercuria, to Nova Roma. I hope you find what it is you are looking for here, and add to the whole of Nova Roma. If you should need help with anything, don't hesitate to ask.

Vale.

O. Flavius Pompeius




---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23196 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Witnessing of New Priests
T Labienus Fortunatus Lictor Quiritibus SPD

As a lictor curiatae, it is my distinct pleasure to witness the
following appointments:

Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Flamen Volturnalis

Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Sodales Fetiales

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Sacerdos Magnae Matris

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Sodalis Salii

Gratulationes!

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23197 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
>
> >
> > That is a mistake. Your reasons are excuses trying to justify a
> > stubborn emotional reaction.
>
> 1. "stubborn, emotional" buzzwords before you begin to analyse my
> discussion; poor logic.

Your response to consul Marinus was not based on logic, or scarcely
so, it was based on emotion. I was just pointing that out.

> > > that had
> > little or nothing to do with the Religio, so I'm not sure what
> that
> > has to do with your point.
>
> 2. Does Scaurus represent the Religio or not? If he does & throws
>out terms like fascist and racist to the Itali, he makes an
>incredibly bad impresssion. At least I feel ashamed perhaps you do
>not.

That's not what you said. You said: "A. Scaurus implied that Fuscus
and Apulus were racist, facists due to his losing the legal argument
concerning the religio."

Scaurus was not involved in a legal argument about the religio with
Fuscus *and* Apulus, though he was to some degree with Fuscus. The
Italian political argument spun off that but no longer concerned the
Religio.

> 2. Nope this is a red herring, dragging in an old argument.

Since you didn't state your reason, I had to look into your past for
one. If you don't want to be misinterpreted then be more exact.

> Pontifex Graecus's post make the argument for King Numa's
>vegetarian sacrifice, the P.M agrees as well, I'm perfectly fine to
>agree with Graecus and the P.M

Fine. I think Scaurus has dealt with this far more authoritatively
than either but I guess we can agree to disagree there.

> > > > No, it is not but Flamens and Pontiffs are representatives of
> the
> > state and the state religion--as are magistrates. These are
> positions
> > of special responsibility, as are magistrates.
>
> 1. True Scaurus is a Flamen, Pontifex and Curule Aedile; but he
> was speaking not in his magisterial capacity but as a plain civis
>in this discussion.

The discussion where you volunteered him as a human sacrifice?
Indeed, I don't recall him speaking offcially or unoffcially as a
potential sacrifice. Whatever the content of your previous
discussions with him, you went overboard with your human sacrifice
comment.

> It is disrespectful to
> > the state and the Religio to make jokes about a ritual killing
of
> > someone in that position, escpecially in light of the recent
heated
> > discussion of sacrifice and the importance of sacrifice to the
> > Religio.
> >
> 1. Sorry it would only be disrespecful if a religious or state
> ceremony were going on. Otherwise we are all cives in the forum, if
> you can laugh about this in the BA and be outraged on the ML I
>won't call you a hypocrite...

Call me whatever you want, I could care less. Try to remember, the ML
is a different venue than the BA and is inappropriate for such
comments. Try to keep in mind the distinction about what can be said
in polite company. The ML is more or less polite company (I hear
snickers from the crowd already--I said more or less), the BA is not.
This wouldn 't have been an issue if you had shown some discretion
and said it in the BA in the first place.

> > Good Gods, it's common sense and courtesy not to go around making
> > such jokes about ANYONE no matter what their position. This was
the
> > weakest of your points and you put it in chief place.
> >
> 1. It is about free speech, I apologized to Sardonicus over this
>very thing when I asked him not to discuss Christianity on the ML.
>If I as a strong supporter of the Religio cannot make a joke then
>there is no free speech in Nova Roma. I will defend this to the end.

Is there any limit to free speech? Yelling fire in a crowded theater
perhaps, or suggesting that someone should be killed?

> but doesn 't justify your
> > behavior against any citizen.
> >
> 1. You contradict yourself you told me Scaurus as Flamen and
> magistrate deserved special respect, now you say I cannot chastise,
> joke with any civis?
> >
> All of which Scaurus has done in his time in NR
>
> 1.Scaurus has done a lot in his position as Curule Aedile and
Flamen
> and Pontifex. But I certainly can disagree with him on the ML & his
> opinions and those of Astur, Palladius and a host of others.
> >
> > You were wrong, do as the consul requested--admit you were
wrong,
> > apologize and move on rather than trample on your dignitas
further.
> >
> 1.As I said I will not apologize as Scaurus does not deserve
>special
> treatment. I apologized to Modius, Sardonicus and others in the
>past.

Then what would be special about apologizing to Scaurus for saying
far worse if you have apologized to others that you have said lesser
things to?

> 2.
> You seem to be entirely ignoring the issue of free speech.

And you are hiding behind free speech pretending that is a central
issue to your cause. Don't try and use that argument against
me 'cause it won't fly far. I've always been an outspoken advocate of
free speech. As praetor I was one of the biggest advocates of
allowing *almost* anything to be said. Almost. I got a lot of grief
for it from people of all political stripes. However, making posts
joking about killing a fellow citizen was and is not one of the
things that one should be allowed to get away with. The state has the
right to regulate certain types of speech and certainly your ill
conceived tirade fits that bill.

>The Relgio is not to be used to gag the cives.

Who is talking about the Religio and free speech except you as a
strawman? I'm talking about common decency and common sense.

>This attitude has nothing to do with Roma Antiqua, unlike you I
>provided chapter and verse, kindly do the same.

No, you didn't. You quoted material from a secondary source that
hadn't the slightest thing to do with the issue of speech and the
inappropriateness of your comments. You are trying to make this a
religious issue when it is not. When it comes down to the essential
point it is about inappropriate comments you made to a fellow citizen
and your refusal to apologize when you are clearly in the wrong.

Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23198 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
---Salvete:

First to Fabia Vera. I would recommend that you say nothing
further...just a suggestion. This is turning, however incidentally,
into a public inquisition, and I feel, that if justice is trying to be
extracted by Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, Senator, he may utilize
proper avenues of justice to do so.

I am not going to get into the ins and outs of things, the rights and
wrongs, and I've read what was written and subsequent responses to it.
Further, it would be admittedly, like the pot calling the kettle black.

I just feel that if you say anything more in the justification of your
rationale for saying the things you did, in the midst of this
crossexamination of sorts, what you say, as the rights script goes
'may be used against you in the court of law'. You may end up being
shortchanged if you continue. I am not telling you to shut up, just
giving you the benefit of my experience.

You are under no obligation to 'answer the questions' in the forum, by
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus. You are not accountable to Decius
Iunius Palladius Invictus period on the ML. He is not Praetor. He is
not a religious official. He is a privatus, as far as your
accountability to him goes.

************

I am the last person in the world to say, but I am not continuing in
pursuit of this issue and I made my position clear with why I used the
scenerio in a law topic, which I had been discussing all along, quite
extensively.

However, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus is, in my estimation, the
'second last person' in the world to say. If something is 'wrong'
Sir, an abomination, sacriledge, grossly inappropriate, and the like,
whatever...it is wrong, both 'here' in the Ml, and it is 'wrong' in
the Back Alley as well. Not just for Fabia Vera, but for everyone.
If it is 'wrong' , one doesn't turn it around and substitute
sacrificee A for sacrificee B. No, because the whole thing is an
abomination to begin with, inappropriate, disrespectful,
whatever.....it is 'wrong', and it seems to me if one thought it was
'wrong' and meant in a 'serious' note, one wouldn't be treating the
matter with any levity at all..

So the most you could say is 'you should have taken this to the Back
Alley", and leave the moral and legal dissection to the magistrates
elected to handle such matters.

.......these are things which make me go 'umm'

Apparently, according to the Consul's note of yesterday (GEM) you
issued an apology for jumping in too quickly making levity of the
issue..you mean the statement where you were going to take the issue
to the Back Alley?...and now you are, well, forgetting your own
frailties and are proceeding to continue in this 'inquisition',
however informally, or not? Is there another apology which I missed?
In any case, it hardly matters, does it?

Po shakes head, mentally reviewing the myriad of things which have
been said on this list over the past 15 months or so, but never
mind...a wonder we are not all in the Tullian Keep.

Fabia Vera, at the risk of my being accused of tacitly condoning every
wrong from the beginning of Nova Roma, and I will likely be accused of
being your lapdog too, client? I will reiterate my advice not to say
anything further, because you can be shortchanged in this manner.
Please count the cost.

This advice is for everyone who is ever found in such a predicament,
hopefully not, and some point in time...so I guess I'm everyone's
lapdog, client, ....what a sorry state I'm in , lol :)

Pompeia






In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > That is a mistake. Your reasons are excuses trying to justify a
> > > stubborn emotional reaction.
> >
> > 1. "stubborn, emotional" buzzwords before you begin to analyse my
> > discussion; poor logic.
>
> Your response to consul Marinus was not based on logic, or scarcely
> so, it was based on emotion. I was just pointing that out.
>
> > > > that had
> > > little or nothing to do with the Religio, so I'm not sure what
> > that
> > > has to do with your point.
> >
> > 2. Does Scaurus represent the Religio or not? If he does & throws
> >out terms like fascist and racist to the Itali, he makes an
> >incredibly bad impresssion. At least I feel ashamed perhaps you do
> >not.
>
> That's not what you said. You said: "A. Scaurus implied that Fuscus
> and Apulus were racist, facists due to his losing the legal argument
> concerning the religio."
>
> Scaurus was not involved in a legal argument about the religio with
> Fuscus *and* Apulus, though he was to some degree with Fuscus. The
> Italian political argument spun off that but no longer concerned the
> Religio.
>
> > 2. Nope this is a red herring, dragging in an old argument.
>
> Since you didn't state your reason, I had to look into your past for
> one. If you don't want to be misinterpreted then be more exact.
>
> > Pontifex Graecus's post make the argument for King Numa's
> >vegetarian sacrifice, the P.M agrees as well, I'm perfectly fine to
> >agree with Graecus and the P.M
>
> Fine. I think Scaurus has dealt with this far more authoritatively
> than either but I guess we can agree to disagree there.
>
> > > > > No, it is not but Flamens and Pontiffs are representatives of
> > the
> > > state and the state religion--as are magistrates. These are
> > positions
> > > of special responsibility, as are magistrates.
> >
> > 1. True Scaurus is a Flamen, Pontifex and Curule Aedile; but he
> > was speaking not in his magisterial capacity but as a plain civis
> >in this discussion.
>
> The discussion where you volunteered him as a human sacrifice?
> Indeed, I don't recall him speaking offcially or unoffcially as a
> potential sacrifice. Whatever the content of your previous
> discussions with him, you went overboard with your human sacrifice
> comment.
>
> > It is disrespectful to
> > > the state and the Religio to make jokes about a ritual killing
> of
> > > someone in that position, escpecially in light of the recent
> heated
> > > discussion of sacrifice and the importance of sacrifice to the
> > > Religio.
> > >
> > 1. Sorry it would only be disrespecful if a religious or state
> > ceremony were going on. Otherwise we are all cives in the forum, if
> > you can laugh about this in the BA and be outraged on the ML I
> >won't call you a hypocrite...
>
> Call me whatever you want, I could care less. Try to remember, the ML
> is a different venue than the BA and is inappropriate for such
> comments. Try to keep in mind the distinction about what can be said
> in polite company. The ML is more or less polite company (I hear
> snickers from the crowd already--I said more or less), the BA is not.
> This wouldn 't have been an issue if you had shown some discretion
> and said it in the BA in the first place.
>
> > > Good Gods, it's common sense and courtesy not to go around making
> > > such jokes about ANYONE no matter what their position. This was
> the
> > > weakest of your points and you put it in chief place.
> > >
> > 1. It is about free speech, I apologized to Sardonicus over this
> >very thing when I asked him not to discuss Christianity on the ML.
> >If I as a strong supporter of the Religio cannot make a joke then
> >there is no free speech in Nova Roma. I will defend this to the end.
>
> Is there any limit to free speech? Yelling fire in a crowded theater
> perhaps, or suggesting that someone should be killed?
>
> > but doesn 't justify your
> > > behavior against any citizen.
> > >
> > 1. You contradict yourself you told me Scaurus as Flamen and
> > magistrate deserved special respect, now you say I cannot chastise,
> > joke with any civis?
> > >
> > All of which Scaurus has done in his time in NR
> >
> > 1.Scaurus has done a lot in his position as Curule Aedile and
> Flamen
> > and Pontifex. But I certainly can disagree with him on the ML & his
> > opinions and those of Astur, Palladius and a host of others.
> > >
> > > You were wrong, do as the consul requested--admit you were
> wrong,
> > > apologize and move on rather than trample on your dignitas
> further.
> > >
> > 1.As I said I will not apologize as Scaurus does not deserve
> >special
> > treatment. I apologized to Modius, Sardonicus and others in the
> >past.
>
> Then what would be special about apologizing to Scaurus for saying
> far worse if you have apologized to others that you have said lesser
> things to?
>
> > 2.
> > You seem to be entirely ignoring the issue of free speech.
>
> And you are hiding behind free speech pretending that is a central
> issue to your cause. Don't try and use that argument against
> me 'cause it won't fly far. I've always been an outspoken advocate of
> free speech. As praetor I was one of the biggest advocates of
> allowing *almost* anything to be said. Almost. I got a lot of grief
> for it from people of all political stripes. However, making posts
> joking about killing a fellow citizen was and is not one of the
> things that one should be allowed to get away with. The state has the
> right to regulate certain types of speech and certainly your ill
> conceived tirade fits that bill.
>
> >The Relgio is not to be used to gag the cives.
>
> Who is talking about the Religio and free speech except you as a
> strawman? I'm talking about common decency and common sense.
>
> >This attitude has nothing to do with Roma Antiqua, unlike you I
> >provided chapter and verse, kindly do the same.
>
> No, you didn't. You quoted material from a secondary source that
> hadn't the slightest thing to do with the issue of speech and the
> inappropriateness of your comments. You are trying to make this a
> religious issue when it is not. When it comes down to the essential
> point it is about inappropriate comments you made to a fellow citizen
> and your refusal to apologize when you are clearly in the wrong.
>
> Vale,
>
> Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23199 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutional Matters
Salve Lucius Quintius Constantius

A Lex on the books says that the silence of a Tribune means they have abstained on that issue . Also the constitution does allow for a Tribune to veto another Tribune

"To pronounce intercessio (intercession; a veto) against another Tribune using the same mechanism as described in paragraph IV. A. 7.a.1. above;"


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs


----- Original Message -----
From: politicog
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchanalibus



--- Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@...>
wrote:
>
>
> The big problem should be a veto of a veto. Tribune
> A vetoes because
> he things unconstitutional, Tribune B vetoes the
> veto because he
> proves it is constitutional indeed. Tribune A does
> not agree, Tribune
> B does not agree the disagreement and so...
>
>

The Nova Roman Constitution has already solved this
problem. A Tribune is not allowed to veto another
Tribune's veto.

Once a Tribune issues his/her veto, the other
Tribunes issue either an agreement or disagreement
with the veto. If more Tribunes agree with the veto
than disagree with it, the veto is "confirmed" (my
phrase) and valid.

Though this does bring out a question. Let's assume
a full-slate of 5 Tribunes. Tribune A vetos some
legislation, Tribune B issues a statement of
agreement, Tribune C issues a statement of
disagreement. Tribunes D & E have disappeared for
months.

So we have:

Veto:

Tribune A: Yes
Tribune B: No
Tribune C: Yes
Tribune D: nothing
Tribune E: nothing.

Is the fact that Tribunes D & E issue no statement
at all considered to be statements of disapproval? If
so, then the veto fails, 3-2. If we take into account
only the inital veto and the statements of
agreement/disagreement, then the veto passes, 2-1.

Any thoughts?


Lucius Quintius Constantius





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23200 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Where are our Praetors ?
Salve A. Apollonius Cordus who said in part:

"If a praetor receives a petition actionis he or she is
obliged to decide within 72 hours whether to allow the
action to proceed or not. It is not explicit in the
lex Salica Iudiciaria whether, in the latter case, the
praetor must inform any of the parties of his or her
decision. In the absence of such an explicit
statement, I think a failure by a praetor to respond
to a petition may be taken as a dismissal, though it
would be far better for the praetor to inform the
parties of the decision, whatever it be, and a
prosecution against a former praetor for a failure to
do so might conceivably succeed."


I strongly disagree Even if it is not stated clearly, that a magistrate needs to inform the parties of their decision on a matter in is STRONGLY IMPLIED . A veto by another higher magistrate or by the Tribunes can not be issued in a vacuum. We have to know that a magisterial action has taken place so it can be reviewed and if need be vetoed.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23201 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Praetor Gnaeus Octavius Noricus is missing
Salvete Quirites,

Praetor Noricus has not been in contact with anyone associated with
Nova Roma since 9 March, according to inquiries made by his Quaestor,
the Censors, and the Consuls. These inquiries have included e-mail to
his friends, surface mail to his home, and telephone calls to his
listed phone number.

We are all quite worried. This is entirely unlike Noricus, who was an
active and involved Quaestor last year.

But Nova Roma can not wait forever. Therefore, I intend to present a
lex to the Comitia Centuriata later this month, declaring the
Praetor's office currently held by Noricus to be vacant. Contingent
on the passage of that law, we shall also need someone to step forward
who is willing to serve out the remainder of Noricus' term of office.
I will post a separate call for candidates.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23202 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Where are our Praetors ?
Salvete Quirites,

To answer Tribune Galerius' question, one of our Praetors is missing
and the other seems to be very busy with his macronational duties.
During our investigation into the apparent disappearance of Praetor
Octavius Noricus, his Quaestor, Gaia Fabia Livia, contacted Praetor
Arminius Maior. Praetor Arminius Maior did write back, acknowledging
that he'd had no recent contact with Praetor Octavius Noricus and at
the same time providing us with proof that at least one of our
Praetors is still within reach.

This is not good. Essential praetorian business is being left undone,
with citizens appealing legal matters that ought to be handled by the
Praetors to the Consuls and the Tribunes. The staff of praetorian
scribes and the praetorian Quasteors have been outstanding in their
performance of duty, and have kept things going as well as they
possibly can, given the limits of their authority. They are to be
commended for their extraordinary service.

I hope that Praetor Arminius Maior can return to us in a more active
capacity soon. I also hope that Praetor Octavius Noricus is alive and
well, and will reappear here among us soon.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23203 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Call for Candidates: Praetor by-election
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Quiritibus salutem plurimam dixit:

Given the disapperance of Praetor Gnaeus Octavius Noricus, and the
likelihood of the Comitia Centuriata declaring his office vacant, I call
for candidates to stand for the office of Praetor, to serve for the
remainder of this year. Candidates should meet all of the requirements
for the office of Praetor as stipulated in the Constitution of Nova Roma
and the Lex Vedia de Curso Honorum.

In particular, no individual may assume the office of Praetor, who has
not previously completed at least six months of a term as one of the
ordinarii (not including the Apparitores) or as provincial governor.

Those wishing to stand must inform me by e-mail to gawne@...
(gawne AT cesmail DOT net) and are also encouraged to post a notice of
their candidacy to the main Nova Roma mailing list. Candidates should
give special consideration to the unusual nature of this election, and
comport themselves accordingly.

I will be accepting statements of candidacy for this opening beginning
today, 8 May, and continuing until one week from today, 15 May. I
anticipate calling the Comitia Centuriata on 17 May, assuming the
auspices are favorable.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23204 From: John Gunn III Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2004
Legion XXIV <legionxxiv@...> wrote: VICESIMA QUARTA
The Newsletter of
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA

MAY 2004

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Praefectus - Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
610-353-4982
legionxxiv@... www.legionxxiv.org

Commilitones

ADVENAE - Newcomers
*** Jonathan Rennick romanista77@... from northern reaches of the Empire
in Ottawa, Ontario has been redirected to Legion XXX in Niagara Falls, Ont.,
which is much closer to him. We still hope to have him turn-out with us if he desires to.
*** John Gunn (Gnaeus Titinius Crassus) gnaeustitiuscrassus@... of
Runnemede, NJ has petitioned for conscribere status as an auxiliary.
*** William Waters (Caius Victricius Bellicus) wwaters98@... has just
inquired about signing-on. He is from the Commander's old neighborhood and just a
few houses away from the Commander's former domicile. He has 2 years of Latin under
his belt and he could be an asset for correcting the Commander's Latin, which leaves
much to be desired. Being so close to the Legion's Castra, we hope to see him with us often.
*** M. Burton Hopkins Jr. (Marcus Velius Hibernius) bhop46@... has joined our
NovaRoma Gens Velia. He hails from New Castle DE and we hope to see him at our events.

*** Tony Rowley (Antonius Velius Hibernius) checked-in with an update on his status.
He is quite busy at work; but meanwhile he is engaged in (as he says) a "mass-reduction"
effort and will acquire his kit and gear as he makes progress in that endeavor.

Lets HEAR from MORE OF YOU on your status with the Legion. We have quite a roster
of members; but we are hearing from only a small number, and even fewer are helping out
by turning out for events. The Commander and a few dedicated troopers can only defend
Rome for so long!! - We need more Help!! - Please!!

MARCHING THRU TIME - After Action Report
Commander Marsallas, Quinton Johanson, Brian Mackey and Kenneth Scriboni turned-out
for this multi-period living history demonstration from Ancient Rome up through Desert Storm.
The Legion was registered as a separate unit this year and participated with Legion XX
for the field maneuvers. The Legion's Engine of Terror Ballista was demonstrated several times
during the two days. The machine was in good form firing SCA type arrow-bolts 175 feet.
One the bolt was nearly MIA, when it fell into a flower bed and was difficult to locate.
Brian Mackey's aka Master Baro's new impressive 10 foot high officer's tent was set-up and
the camp prepared on Friday Evening. The tent really gave our Camp credibility and provided
ample room for changing clothes (while standing up - nice!), storing gear and taking a breather
out of sight of the public.
Saturday's campaigns went well with the good weather bringing out a large number of visitors.
Dinner at Marietta on Saturday Night was on the Commander and much good food and
conversation was enjoyed after the day's steady activity.
On Sunday morning, the Ballista took part in the impromptu "All Periods Melee".
It scored a number of plunging-fire direct hits until it was assaulted by the Civil War units.
However, Rome prevailed when it later scored again as the units were marching back to camp.
Sunday was equally good as to the weather and visitors. This was one of the most successful
campaigns the Legion has had, but we still need more troopers turning-out.

ROMAN DAYS NORTHEAST May 15, 2004 - Woodstock Fairgrounds, Equestrian Center -
Woodstock, CT 10 am to 4 pm Contact: lawrensnest@...
This Event, only a week away!! It is being sponsored by La Wren's Nest, Legio VIIII Triumphalis and
Legio III Cyrenaica.

It will be held at an equestrian park that will have ample room for our military maneuvers and encampment.
Fred Wojick (Flavius Octavius Servius) and his brother Greg (Gallus Octavius Oppius), have put together an Onager catapult. They claim a range of 300 feet using softballs. Come see it in action!!! Some barbarians have been captured for us to use as fodder for our gladius and pila practice. The Ludus Magnus Gladiators are also expected to be there. Master Baro will have his new Officer's Tent for changing, storing and weather protection.
Let's hope we don't need it for that final contingency!
Games and other activities for young and old will be going on throughout the day. A Roman Market and Merchant's Row will be set-up. The Legion XXIV "Castra" (headquarters) on Friday and Saturday Nights, will be the Kings Inn, at Exit 96 of I-395, in Putnum, CT, 10 miles from the Woodstock Event. This is the closest hotel to the Event and they have a restaurant on premises. Contact the Kings Inn at 800-541-7304 and ask for the preferential room rate for Romans of $62.72 single and $69.44 double, with taxes and fees included.
Contact La Wren's Nest at the above e-mail or the event website http://www.lawrensbasement.com/RomanDaysNE.html for more information, directions, other hotels, etc.
Units and individuals are asked to contact Julie at LaWrens to advise her of your space requirements and the number of tents you are bringing. Legion XXIV will have a 50 x 50 foot space allocation which should suffice for Master Baro's new marquee tent, our displays and other needs. Arrive after 2PM on Friday for set-up. A dinner on Saturday night is planned for event participants.
Please advise the Commander at legionxxiv@... if you will be attending this event.

ROMAN DAYS NORTHEAST FEAST - Julie and Lawrence Brooks (LaWrens Nest)
are planning to have a Roman feast at 5 pm after the close of the event.
It will be a nice way for re-enactors, staff and volunteers to end the day and give everyone a chance to socialize.
The feast will be a combination of Roman and Egyptian dishes. The price is $20.00 for adults, $12 for children under thirteen.
They need to have a head count by April 20th, so the food can be purchased.
If you want to come to the feast, please send a check made payable to "Mar-Vista" at 1227 South River Road, Marshfield, MA 02050. Attach a note stating that you are paying for the feast and a list of names. Also, please note if you have any food allergies.
The feast menu will consist of the following: (note: we are still checking on spelling, please excuse any errors in Latin spelling until we get the final correct spellings. Or you can send us a correct spelling).
Appetizers
beta caseus patella - platters with fresh sliced fruits and melon served around a yogurt dip, with feta cheese and gouda chunks.
Cucumber and Yogur salad - sliced cucumbers in a yogurt sauce, Rowies - Scottish rolls, made similarly to croissants
First Course
Shourbet Al Khodar served with white rice - a combination of beef, vegetable and spices, slow-stewed and served over the rice
Fabiciae Verdis et Baeana - green berans and soy beans with coriander, cumin and leeks.
Second course
Chicken kabobs - marinated white and dark meat chicken, slow-roasted with period herbs and spices
Tagen Roze- rice with onions herbs, chicken broth Rolls - whole wheat rolls
Dessert
Dulca Domestica - fresh dates, stuffed with fruits and other period choices, with a honey dip Libum - honey soaked pastry, these are cheese and flour, baked then oaked in honey
Libum absque caseus - same as above, but without the cheese.
Period beverages will include Sakajabin, lemon water and fruit juice.


MID-WEST VEXILLATION CALLED FOR ENCORE CAMPAIGN
Ft. Malden in Amherstburg, Ontario, was so impressed by a demo done by the
Legion's Mid-West Vexillation a few months ago, under command of our Mid-West Optio,
David Smith (Quintus Fabricus Varus), that they want Quintus and the Vexillation
for a Special Event at the Fort on Sunday, May 23rd. This will be in addition to our
regular Fort Malden participation on July 31 and August 1 this year.
OOO RAAAHHH !!! to Optio Quintus Fabricus and our Mid-West Vexillation for
defending the interests of Rome in the outer reaches of our Provincia.
The Call is going out to ANY and ALL Romans to converge on Ft. Malden on Saturday,
May 22 to set up for Sunday's show. A camp of a dining fly, two squad tents and misc.
equipment will be set-up. Dave is looking for a musician or two, so if you know of anyone
who might become cornicen (tuba-trumpet-bugle) let him know.
The Commander cannot attend this event so it will be in the Optio's capable hands.
Contact Optio Varus at david.smith@... for more details on this Event.

UPM REQUESTS SUMMER CAMP ENCORE
The University of Pennsylvania Museum, in Philadelphia, has requested a return engagement
of Roman Military and Gladiators on August 12 or 13 for its annual summer camp for young people.
We would need a couple of legionaries to demonstrate and talk with the kids.
If you think you could help out with this, please advise the Commander.

LEGION GETS NEW AQUILA AND IMAGO STANDARDS
The Commander has assembled new Aquila (Eagle) and astrological Taurus (Bull) Imago
Standards. The original Aquila, which served us well, was made of non-historical cold-cast
material and had become shabby due to chipping and breakage and has now been retired.
The new Aquila Eagle is cast metal and is mounted to the pole in a more historically correct
manner. The Commander came across a large 13 inch long Taurus-Bull standing on a
wood base. He snapped it up (for more than a few $$$'s) and it is now mounted and will
serve as the Legion's astrological Imago Standard.
See them both at www.legionxxiv.org/signum or better yet, see them in person at an Event!!

ONAGER CATAPULT JOINS LEGION'S ARTILLERY POOL
The Legion now has a second piece of artillery - OOUU - RAAAA !!!
Fred Wojick (Flavius Octavius Servius) and his brother Greg (Gallus Octavius Oppius),
who just signed-on with the Legion last October, have put together an Onager catapult.
They claim a range of 300 feet using softballs! It is a little more than 4' x 6' and stands
5' tall. it took them 7 months to complete. They made everything as authentic as possible.
It has wheels and promises to outshine the Commanders wimpy? ballista, which can
only lob plastic tube ammo 175 feet. This mighty machine was to be at MTT; but Fred
was called to additional police duty for a trial. Too Bad! Now we will have to wait until
Roman Days Northeast to witness this new "Engine of Terror".


POSSIBLE REN FAIRE APPEARANCE - SUNDAY OCT 24
The Legion has been invited to participate in a planned Renaissance Faire in northern New Jersey
on Sunday, October 24, 11AM - 5PM. The event would be at the Waterloo Village near NetCong,
I-80, Exit 25. Mark your calendars and stayed tuned for additional details.

THE COMMANDER TO WALK SIX MILES FOR AIDS RESEARCH
Your noble Praefectus, reincarnated in a Galaxy Far Far Away as Star Wars Stormtrooper
"Old Sarge Oberon" TD124 is doing it again in "04". He will be participating in the
10 kilometer / 6.2 mile New York City Aids Walk on Sunday, May 16th, in full Star WarsTrooper Armor,
with members of the Empire City Garrison of the 501st Star Wars Stormtrooper Legion,
benefiting the National "Fight Against HIV and Aids".
In 2003, some 45,000 participants raised $5.1 million for AIDS research and relief.
Please go to www.legionxxiv.org/stnycwalk for photos and details on Sarge Oberon's AidsWalk effort
in 2003, in which he raised $800. He is hoping to surpass $1000 in 2004! - But He Needs Your Help AND $$$'s!
As the oldest trooper in the 501st Legion (62 years young!), he is asking and looking for your support
in this worthy endeavor.
Please Follow This Link to donate what you can in fraternal support of the Old Sarge / Commander Marsallas
and Humanity.

Thank You ! Carry On !! OOO - RAAA !!!

George Metz aka Trooper "Oberon" TD124
Sergeant at Arms - Garrison Carida - 501st Legion
www.legionxxiv.org/trooper124
geometz@...


UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS

*** May 23 Mid-West Vexillation Special Campaign at Fort Malden, Ontario.

*** June 12-13 "Roman Days", Marietta Mansion, Glendale, MD

*** June 19-20 "Muster on the Maumee" Time Line Event, Fort Meigs, Perrysburg, OH
*** July 31 - Aug 1 Multi-Period Time Line Event, Fort Malden, Amherstburg Ontario, opposite Detroit.

*** August 12 or 13 Univ.PA.Museum Summer Camp, Roman Day, Philadelphia

*** August 18-19-20-21 Pennsic War XXXIII, The Great Battle between the Kingdoms of the East and the Middle; Rts I-79 & US-422, New Castle, PA. Legion XXIV will be displaying the presence of Ancient Rome.

*** Sept 18-19 -- Roman Market Days, Wells Harbor Park, ME

*** October 15-16-17 Movie Trailer Shoot and Encampment at Parthenon in Nashville, TN with multiple Legion Units
and 100+ Roman Reenactors www.romanreenactment.com gbarbosa@...

*** October 24, Sunday, Possible Ren Faire appearance, Waterloo Village, Netcong, NJ, I-80-exit 25 11AM-5PM

Be sure to check the website from time to time. It is updated at least once a month and generally more than once.
www.legionxxiv.org New material includes details on the New Aquila and Taurus Standards, early Roman Calendars and months, updates to the Glossary, new gladiator helmets on the Ludus Magnus page, more details about the Coliseum and other updates throughout the website. Check in often.

Thanking you for your continued support of Legion XXIV, I remain;

Vires et Honos - Strength and Honor

Gallio / George




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23205 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Quintius Constantius, and
to all his fellow-ctizens and all pregrines,
greetings.

> > I would expect, though I admit I can't think of
> any
> > historical examples, that a tribune is liable for
> > prosecution once his term of office has expired,
> as
> > with other magistrates; consequently no tribune
> can
> > be
> > certain that he would get away with doing such a
> > thing.
>
> This is something that has been troubling me. Are
> we
> relying on a particular Nova Roman law in this
> matter,
> or are we relying on the mos maiorum?
>
> I had read a magistrate post the assertion that a
> "curule" magistrate could not be prosecuted during
> his/her term. Does this apply to all magistrates,
> or
> only the curule magistrates?

The prohibition was never, as far as I know, a legal
one, but it was a very, very strong one - I can only
think of one example (the prosecution of L. Licinius
Lucullus), though there may have been others. I don't
know off the top of my head whether it applied to
non-curule magistrates, but it almost certainly
applied in principle to tribunes also, since, being
sacrosanct, a tribune would have been able to defy a
court summons with impunity. So the only question-mark
is over the position of plebeian aediles (who were
probably originally sacrosanct also, but whose
sacrosanctity seems to have lapsed later).

> If we are relying the mos maiorum for this concept,
> I'm afraid I have to object on the matter. My
> understanding of the ancient republican constitution
> is that for most magistracies, there was a waiting
> period after the end of the term before that
> individual could candidate for a higher magistacy.
> This provision does not exist in Nova Roman law.
> This
> means that an individual could run for and be
> elected
> to several successive magistacies, and thereby evade
> trial for years. This offends my basic sense of
> justice and accountability.

I quote agree, and I refer you to an interesting
discussion initiated early this year on this subject
by Consul Equitius Marinus, during which I suggested
that a law be passed allowing petitiones actionis to
be filed against sitting magistrates but held in
suspension, and requiring magistrates against whom
such a suspended petitio was being held to take a year
off in which to answer the charge. I think the Consul
received the suggestion favourably at least in general
principle, so we may perhaps hope for something of the
kind to come before the assembly. Until then, I can
only suggest that anyone who may wish to file a
petitio against a currently citting magistrate ask the
praetors to strongly encourage that magistrate to take
a year off. It may also conceivably be within the
power of the consuls to refuse the candidacy of a
magistrate against whom a petitio is in place.

Also worth bearing in mind is the provision mentioned
by Senator Fortunatus, which I'd forgotten, which
enables the comitia to depose a sitting magistrate -
such a measure could be taken if the matter were too
urgent to leave for a prosecution in the following
year. I'm inclined to think that that provision would
also not be incompatible with a lex declaring an
office vanact if the incumbent is missing for a
certain period.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23206 From: marullinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Aedile Plebeo
Aelius Solaris Marullinus Civibus SPD

I, Aelius Solaris Marullinus, 45, Nova Roman citizen for the past two
years, come in front of you to present myself as candidate as Aedilus
Plebis. During these past two years I've been working with different
duties inside Italia Provincia, and especially for the management of
the Provincial website. Together with the Italic magistrates, I had a
preminent role in the organization the International Nova Roman
Rally, held in Bologna in August 2003. Candidating to this office is
for me the way to sustain with strength our Res Publica and the best
for Nova Roma, offering my collaboration to the other Aedilis Plebis
and to the Aediles Curules.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23207 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Apology
A. Apollonius Cordus to all his fellow-citizens and
all peregrines, greetings.

I'm afraid I shan't be able to post until Monday, so
my apologies to my current correspondents.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23208 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Concerning the Petitio Actionis of Domitius Constantinus Fuscus v.
Salvete Quirites,

Earlier this week, citizen Domitius Constantinus Fuscus forwarded to
Consul Astur and me a Petitio Actionis that he had filed 3 days earlier
with the Praetors. Since the Praetors had not provided any response to
the Petitio, Fuscus was seeking recourse at the next level of magistracy.

After consideration of Fuscus' request and our laws, I concluded that I
shouldn't act 'in loco praetoris' in this case and that therefore, his
petition not having been expressly accepted nor rejected, he will be
able to present it at any time to the praetors, should they return, or
to the newly elected one, who will decide about accepting or rejecting
the petitio actionis within 72 hours, as the law requires.

I further advised Fuscus that since he is seeking to charge a sitting
magistrate, and the charge is not one of maladministration, I will if
necessary use my Consular Imperium to suspend prosecution until the
magistrate's term of office is at an end, in accordance with the mos
maiorum. Fuscus has indicated that he understands and agrees to this,
and is willing to wait until the end of the year for actual proceedings
to begin.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23209 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Missing Praetors - Suggestion
Salve Omnes,

I am worried about the disappearance of Noricus as well. I have
dealt with him before and this is really out of character for him as
metioned.

The problem in NR is that we are still internet based and if someone
is gravely ill or had their appointment with the ferryman, we may
not know for months if ever. I suggest that any of the magistrates
and even active citizens for that matter, give the email sites of NR
to another family member or friend and give their email address to
NR with instructions to contact NR if something should happen. In
that way NR is not left out in limbo.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23210 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Missing Praetors - Suggestion
--- Salvete Propraetor Quinte Lani Pauline:

At the risk of a 'me too', I will augment your words in that I find
this an oddity, based on my knowledge of Noricus. It is unlike what I
would expect from him to just up and walk away in the absence of
seriously extenuating circumstances, whatever they may be.

I pray that he is ok, and I ask that others please do the same.

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Omnes,
>
> I am worried about the disappearance of Noricus as well. I have
> dealt with him before and this is really out of character for him as
> metioned.
>
> The problem in NR is that we are still internet based and if someone
> is gravely ill or had their appointment with the ferryman, we may
> not know for months if ever. I suggest that any of the magistrates
> and even active citizens for that matter, give the email sites of NR
> to another family member or friend and give their email address to
> NR with instructions to contact NR if something should happen. In
> that way NR is not left out in limbo.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23211 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
---. I would very much
> appreciate it if she were to post a full and sincere apology to the
> People of Nova Roma for that post.
>

Salvete Quirites;
I have been thinking deeply over this matter, as a pleb if I have
indeed offended the Plebs then I will apologize or pay a fine or both.

I put myself under the juridiction of the Plebian Aediles to make
that determination. In Roma Antiqua as part of the cura urbis they
exercised a certain amount of minor criminal jurisdiction, for they
had coercitio. So I believe they are the more appropriate choice then
the Tribune of the Plebis. But I could be wrong. Either way I will
submit myself to the magistrates of the Plebis.

bene vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23212 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutional issues
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Pompeia Cornelia

Salvete Tribune Galeri Pauline et alii:

You wrote:
>
> In addition to what has been said about the Tribunes , they are
also given the task in the constitution to
> "To administer the law" and it will be up to a majority of the
Tribunes to decide what that entails and how it will manifest itself.

Pompeia: Indeed. And not so much 'in addition' this chat is pretty
much under the unbrella of your constitutional authority to administer
the law, which includes, of course, the duty and ability to promulgate
what legislation you as Tribunes feel necessary.

Promulgate away, my good tribunes! We have much to address, imo

Valete
Pompeia
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Tribunus Plebs
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pompeia_cornelia
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 1:04 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some
Livy stuff on Bacchanalibus
>
>
> ---Salvete L. Quintius et Omnes:
>
> I am with you in that we must go by Nova Roma law, although the
> capacities of the Ancient Tribunes are certainly worth entertaining,
> the final analysis is that there are still differences between Nova
> Roman law and the Laws of Antiquita and the former must be considered
> with respect to Tribune powers. As traditional as we would like to
> remain where possible, there will always be differences.
>
> Further, even in the loosest interpretation of the constitution, the
> Tribunes must still use the letter of or spirit of the constitution as
> its criteria for intercessio, no?
>
> Otherwise what is stopping them from vetoing the 'actions' of a
> Senatus Consultum to modify taxes to a higher rate, or to nix the
> current schedule in favour of a new one, for some odd reason? They
> must follow constitutional parameters...they simply cannot veto it for
> reasons that it is 'too harsh', or 'just not fair'...
>
> And with respect to the Tribune veto...it was actually only 48 hours
> at one time, and it was increased to 72 hours on the very reasoning
> you are giving us. As for revisiting it, I think that's a good idea.
> This is not the only job of the Tribunes, it is coupled with
> macronational obligations. And, I believe the 'would like' of the
> original promulgator of these changes, was hoping that a full
> complement of Tribunes would materialize over time in Nova Roma, in
> keeping with antiquita. I believe that number was 10, no?
>
> I am enjoying these threads tremendously, by the way.
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, politicog <politicog@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > > Pompeia: my pleasure
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > With a bad edict the time frame is just one year
> > > and unless a
> > > magistrate from the following year keeps it it will
> > > die at the end of
> > > the year. If the new magistrate keeps it it would
> > > become subject to
> > > the veto of the new Tribunes who hopefully would see
> > > the error that
> > > their predecessor missed and would veto the edict
> > > until it was fixed.
> > >
> > > Pompeia: Yes I believe so. The edictum is being
> > > adopted otherwise it
> > > is dead. So in essence it is new legislation and
> > > subject to
> > > intercessio as such (the lex governing renewal of
> > > edicta is the Lex
> > > Arminia something or other, 2755)..in the tabularium
> > > :)
> > > >
> > > > Now with other actions subject to the Tribunes
> > > veto such as Senatus
> > > consulta, religious decreta, and leges passed by
> > > the comitia we have
> > > a few problems. According to those I have talked to
> > > in NR the Tribunes
> > > of ancient Rome could not and would not have had the
> > > power to veto
> > > anything coming out of the Comitia AFTER it was
> > > passed. Action would
> > > have been required BEFORE A VOTE. They could veto a
> > > proposed action or
> > > law but not after it was adopted .
> > >
> > > Pompeia: I agree with your analysis here, except for
> > > the following:
> > > You may veto actions right, according to the
> > > NovaRoma Constitution.
> > > If you found that the actions of a magistrate were
> > > based on a lex, but
> > > that he was not applying the lex properly in the
> > > justification of his
> > > actions as a magistrate, I believe you could veto
> > > his actions in that
> > > they are against the language of the lex, , in other
> > > words, illegally
> > > applying the lex. You are not alone in this
> > > scenerio though...he
> > > could be vetoed by other magistrates above him. So
> > > I understand your
> > > thinking with the edictum and proposed leges, but I
> > > am not sure about
> > > your totally inability to veto something post
> > > comitia...you may veto
> > > the unconstitutional misapplication of the
> > > legislation.
> > >
> > > Personally, if the law was that bad, I think it
> > > would be very
> > > important to lobby for repromulgation.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I will trust that those who spoke of the powers of
> > the Ancient Tribunes were correct in stating that they
> > could not and would not veto matters that had passed a
> > final vote of the Comitiae.
> >
> > However, the situation in NR is different. The
> > Constitution specifically gives the Tribunes the right
> > to veto legislation from a Comitia. I interpret this
> > to mean that the Tribunes could veto legislation after
> > it has passed a vote, but only within the prescribed
> > 72 hours after the result of the vote has been
> > announced. The wording of the Constitution is so
> > broad that the law doesn't even have to be
> > unconstitutional. The Tribunes could decide that they
> > wish to veto a law simply because it conflicts with a
> > previous law, and the veto would be perfectly
> > constitutional.
> >
> > I do think that the 72 hour limit on vetos should be
> > revisited. It us unreasonable to think that all
> > Tribunes will always have the opportunity of reviewing
> > legislarion in the immediate 72 hours following a vote
> > or promulgation of an edict. I think that extending
> > the deadline to a week or two weeks would be a better
> > solution, or at a minimum of allowing the Tribunes at
> > least until the Monday following
> > approval/promulgation. They should get a chance to
> > review the legislation over the weekend. We aren't
> > all so privileged as to be able to have
> > Internet/e-mail access during regular working hours.
> >
> > Lucius Quintius Constantius
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23213 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Concerning the Petitio Actionis of Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
Salvete omnes,

Well, isn't that just lovely. Quintus shakes his head and rolls his
eyeballs.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus




oogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Earlier this week, citizen Domitius Constantinus Fuscus forwarded
to
> Consul Astur and me a Petitio Actionis that he had filed 3 days
earlier
> with the Praetors. Since the Praetors had not provided any
response to
> the Petitio, Fuscus was seeking recourse at the next level of
magistracy.
>
> After consideration of Fuscus' request and our laws, I concluded
that I
> shouldn't act 'in loco praetoris' in this case and that therefore,
his
> petition not having been expressly accepted nor rejected, he will
be
> able to present it at any time to the praetors, should they
return, or
> to the newly elected one, who will decide about accepting or
rejecting
> the petitio actionis within 72 hours, as the law requires.
>
> I further advised Fuscus that since he is seeking to charge a
sitting
> magistrate, and the charge is not one of maladministration, I will
if
> necessary use my Consular Imperium to suspend prosecution until
the
> magistrate's term of office is at an end, in accordance with the
mos
> maiorum. Fuscus has indicated that he understands and agrees to
this,
> and is willing to wait until the end of the year for actual
proceedings
> to begin.
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> --
> Gn. Equitius Marinus
> Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23214 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)
--- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
> > > I had read a magistrate post the assertion that
a
> > "curule" magistrate could not be prosecuted during
> > his/her term. Does this apply to all magistrates,
> > or
> > only the curule magistrates?
>
> The prohibition was never, as far as I know, a legal
> one, but it was a very, very strong one - I can only
> think of one example (the prosecution of L. Licinius
> Lucullus), though there may have been others. I
> don't
> know off the top of my head whether it applied to
> non-curule magistrates, but it almost certainly
> applied in principle to tribunes also, since, being
> sacrosanct, a tribune would have been able to defy a
> court summons with impunity. So the only
> question-mark
> is over the position of plebeian aediles (who were
> probably originally sacrosanct also, but whose
> sacrosanctity seems to have lapsed later).
>
> > If we are relying the mos maiorum for this
> concept,
> > I'm afraid I have to object on the matter. My
> > understanding of the ancient republican
> constitution
> > is that for most magistracies, there was a waiting
> > period after the end of the term before that
> > individual could candidate for a higher magistacy.
>
> > This provision does not exist in Nova Roman law.
> > This
> > means that an individual could run for and be
> > elected
> > to several successive magistacies, and thereby
> evade
> > trial for years. This offends my basic sense of
> > justice and accountability.
>
> I quote agree, and I refer you to an interesting
> discussion initiated early this year on this subject
> by Consul Equitius Marinus, during which I suggested
> that a law be passed allowing petitiones actionis to
> be filed against sitting magistrates but held in
> suspension, and requiring magistrates against whom
> such a suspended petitio was being held to take a
> year
> off in which to answer the charge. I think the
> Consul
> received the suggestion favourably at least in
> general
> principle, so we may perhaps hope for something of
> the
> kind to come before the assembly. Until then, I can
> only suggest that anyone who may wish to file a
> petitio against a currently citting magistrate ask
> the
> praetors to strongly encourage that magistrate to
> take
> a year off. It may also conceivably be within the
> power of the consuls to refuse the candidacy of a
> magistrate against whom a petitio is in place.
>

I would support those measures.


> Also worth bearing in mind is the provision
> mentioned
> by Senator Fortunatus, which I'd forgotten, which
> enables the comitia to depose a sitting magistrate -
> such a measure could be taken if the matter were too
> urgent to leave for a prosecution in the following
> year. I'm inclined to think that that provision
> would
> also not be incompatible with a lex declaring an
> office vanact if the incumbent is missing for a
> certain period.
>


Yes, I had forgotten that provision too. It could
be taken care of in the way you suggest, or we could
approve a proposal to amend the Constitution that
would make it automatic. I think it would be
acceptable either way.


Lucius Quintius Constantius




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23215 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutional Matters
--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
> Salve Lucius Quintius Constantius
>
> A Lex on the books says that the silence of a
> Tribune means they have abstained on that issue .
> Also the constitution does allow for a Tribune to
> veto another Tribune
>
> "To pronounce intercessio (intercession; a veto)
> against another Tribune using the same mechanism as
> described in paragraph IV. A. 7.a.1. above;"
>
>


I did not say that a Tribune could not veto another
Tribune. What I was addressing was your colleague's
statement about a Tribune vetoing a veto. This could
be (and was frequently) done in Roma Antiquita, but is
prohibited by the NR Constitution.

The Constitution states:

IV.A.7.a

i. Once a pronouncement of intercessio has been made,
the other Tribunes may, at their discretion, state
either their support for or their disagreement with
that intercessio.

1. Each Tribune may issue only one such declaration
of support or disagreement, but may change their
declaration from one to the other, should they wish to
do so.

2. The initial pronouncement of intercessio by a
Tribune shall count as that Tribune's declaration of
agreement.

3. Should the number or the Tribunes who choose to
disagree with an intercessio equal or exceed the
number of Tribunes who choose to support it, the
intercessio shall be revoked.

ii. Intercessio may not be imposed against
statements of support for or disagreement with a use
of intercessio that are issued pursuant to the
preceding paragraph.


So in NR you may veto (intercessio) the action or
edict of another Tribune, but you may not veto another
Tribune's veto. You can issue a statement of
disagreement with his veto, which if you end up in the
majority of Tribunes on the issue, will result
effectively in invalidating the veto. I believe the
drafters of this provision were providing against the
possibility of the Tribunes vetoing each other ad
nauseum.

Lucius Quintius Constantius


>




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23216 From: politicog Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1264
--- Fortunatus <labienus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Apparently it seems to be a frequent
> > occurance of elected magistrates disappearing
> without
> > notifying anyone. Hence my recent suggestion of
> > legislating that (x) amount of time without any
> > contact from a magistrate results in the office
> being
> > declared vacant.
>
> This is not a bad idea at all. Note that it may be
> unconstitutional in
> the case of the ordinarii, however.
>
> Constitution, IV.A:
> Should one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict
> in his duties, that
> magistrate may be removed by a law originating in
> the comitia that
> elected him.
>
> I reat that to mean that the comitia that elected a
> given derelict
> magistrate must be convened to enact a lex to remove
> that magistrate
> each and every time the problem occurs. I suppose
> that a loose
> interpretation of the sentence would allow such a
> lex to pass; that's a
> matter for the college of tribuni plebis to decide.
>
>

Or we could pass a Constitutional amendment making
the vacancy automatic after a certain period of time.

Lucius Quintius Constantius




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23217 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
M IVL PERVSIANVS QVIRITIBVS SPD

I come here to you, citizens of Nova Roma, to ask your vote for my
friend and relative Lucius Iulius Sulla.

I could make you here many examples of the involvment of this great
man in NR and of his love for Rome, as well done by Pompeia and
others.
I can only express my gratitude for his work inside my Cohors and for
having such a colleague inside both the Curia Italica and Academia
Italica.

Lucius Iulius Sulla deserves it, Sulla for Quaestor!

M IVL PERVSIANVS,
Aedilis Curulis, Legatus Italiae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23218 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I come before you again to urge the election of L. Iulius Sulla as
quaestor. He is a young man whose extraordinary intellectual gifts, as
well as his already subtanstial list of contributions to Nova Rome, mark
him as someone who will one day be of consular timbre. We would be
wasting a precious resource for our community if we do not start this
distinguished young man up the cursus honorum now by electing him
quaestor. As a curule magistrate, Flamen Quirinalis and Pontifex, I
cannot imagine a more qualified and promisiing candidate for the office.
For the sake of Nova Roma's future and the mos maiorum, I urge you in
the strongest possible terms to support him for quaestor. If I were not
possessed already of an very competent quaestor in G. Vispsanius
Agrippa, I would petition to consules to have L. Iulius Sulla assigned
to my office if he were elected, for I trust his judgment and voracious
capacity for work to decorate handsomely the staff of any magistrate he
might serve.

Valete,.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23219 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.


I, too, request officially that our pontiff Drusus be ordered to
apologize to Doris; whether or not he thinks she *is* a "jerk" or
not, he has absolutely no place on a public List to say so. In
private, fine. But he should know better than anyone else that he
represents, to a great degree, the College of Pontiffs in specific
and the religio in general on this List, and as such, should take
extraordinary precautions to make his feelings known in a temperate
and educated way.

I am equally offended by the "sacrifice Scaurus" post; although I
disagree wholeheartedly with some of what Scaurus says, and was taken
aback by his uncharacteristic vituperativeness towards Constantius
Fuscus, I would fight anyone for his *right* to express his beliefs
and opinions. On top of which, as any practitioner of the religio
should know, it is only the Sybilline Books which could order a human
sacrifice, and they have been lost for many centuries.

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Sardonicus" <sardonicus_@h...>
wrote:
> L C Sardonicus addresses everyone and Lucius Arminicus Fuscus
> specifically. Oh yeah, greetings. Did I get all the names right?
>
> "Maybe the obviously not-serious proposal of human sacrifice became
> socially acceptable the same day a senator and pontifex, in an
> obviously serious and intentional way, labeled as jerk a fellow
> citizen in public."
>
> If the shoe fits... :)
>
> (Please note that I put the smiley face in to illustrate how
> ridiculous it is to insult someone and then append a smiley face,
as
> if doing so puts your comment in a non-serious and unintentional
> light. Just kidding, dude.)
>
> I, also, demand an official statement on the unnecessarily
insulting
> and abusive posts to this list. Perhaps moderation is necessary
for
> slightest infraction; providing that we have someone with the time
> and energy to moderate this BS.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23220 From: RexCurry.net Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: The "Roman Salute" was made in the U.S.A.
Please let me know what you think about these arguments.

Did U.S. socialists create the straight-armed "Roman salute" and
cause WWII and the socialist Wholecaust? In 1892, Francis Bellamy
was a national socialist in the U.S. and created the Pledge of
Allegiance to the flag using a straight-armed salute
http://members.ij.net/rex/pledge1.html

Bellamy wanted the government to takeover all schools and create
an "industrial army" of totalitarian socialism as described in the
book "Looking Backward" (a bestseller written in 1887 by Edward
Bellamy, cousin of Francis Bellamy)
http://members.ij.net/rex/pledgebackward.html

Government-schools grew and they mandated racism and segregation by
law and did so through WWII and beyond
http://members.ij.net/rex/stopthepledge4.html

Edward Bellamy's best-selling book was translated into 20
different languages, including Russian, German, Italian, and
Chinese. It was popular among the elite in pre-revolutionary Russia,
and Lenin's wife was known to have read the book, because she wrote a
review of it. John Dewey and the historian Charles Beard intended to
praise the book when they stated that it was equaled in influence
only by Das Kapital.

25 years later, Bellamy's totalitarian ideas continued. The
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics began in 1917. The National
Socialist German Workers' Party came into existence in 1920 (with
electoral breakthroughs in 1930 and dictatorship in 1933). In 1922,
Mussolini gained power. The People's Republic of China began in 1949.

The socialist Wholecaust followed shortly after the worldwide
impact of Bellamy's totalitarian ideas. Under the industrial army of
the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, 62 million people were
slaughtered; the People's Republic of China, 35 million; and the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, 21 million (numbers from
Professor R. J. Rummel's article in the Encyclopedia of Genocide
(1999)) http://members.ij.net/rex/socialists.jpg

Benito Mussolini was the leader of the Socialist Party of Italy.
Like many modern media Mussolinis, he was a socialist and a
journalist. Between 1912 and 1914 he was the editor of the Socialist
Party newspaper, "L'Avanti" (Avanti means "in front", "advance"
or "forward" or even "come in"). In 1914 he started his own socialist
newspaper "Il Popolo d'Italia" ("The people of Italy"). He was
considered by socialists to be a great writer about socialism. He was
a staunch proponent of revolutionary rather than reformist socialism,
and actually received Lenin's endorsement and support for expelling
reformists from the Socialist Party. He was in fact first dubbed "Il
Duce" (the Leader) when he was a member of Italy's (Marxist)
Socialist Party. When Mussolini differed with some Socialists it was
over participation in World War I, not over abstract theory, or
economic doctrine. Many socialists were neutralists in the First
World War, whereas Mussolini correctly foresaw that the Austro/German
forces would not win the war and therefore wanted Italy to join the
Allied side and thus get a slice of Austrian territory at the end of
the war. During World War I, Mussolini publicized what he admitted
was his new brand of socialism.

On October 28, 1922, Mussolini led his "March on Rome", which
brought him to power for 23 years.

In late 1937, Mussolini visited Germany and pledged himself to
support the National Socialist German Workers' Party. In 1938, he
introduced his `reform of customs.'" Hand-shaking was suddenly
banned as unhygienic: a salute was to be used instead - the right
forearm raised vertically. He imposed a new march on the Italian
Army which was simply the goose-step of the National Socialist German
Workers' Party. According to the book "A Concise History of Italy"
by Christopher Duggan, these reforms were introduced mainly to
underline ideological kinship with the National Socialist German
Workers' Party and to impress it's leader. The so-called "Roman
salute" (saluto romano) is as much of a fiction as the so-
called "Roman step" (passo romano) as is the idea that the National
Socialist German Workers' Party emulated Mussolini and not vice
versa. The most notorious instance of Italy imitating the National
Socialist German Workers' Party was in the racist laws imposed in
November 1938.

Before and during it all (from 1892), children in the U.S.
attended government-schools where racism and segregation were
mandated by law, and where they performed a straight-armed salute to
the U.S. flag, and were forced to robotically chant a Pledge written
by a national socialist who wanted to produce an "industrial army"
for totalitarian socialism as popularized worldwide in a best-selling
novel.

WWII began in 1939 when Poland was invaded by the National
Socialist German Workers' Party and by the Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics, as allies in their scheme to divide up Eastern Europe.
http://members.ij.net/rex/socialistwar.html

The raised-arm salute is one of the best-known symbols of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, and supposedly used by
Mussolini from a classical Roman custom. According to Martin Winkler
in "The Roman Salute on Film" of the American Philological
Association, no Roman work of art displays this salute, nor does any
Roman text describe it.

Winkler notes that well before Mussolini and the National
Socialist German Workers' Party, the salute frequently occurs in
films set in antiquity. What Winkler fails to realize is that every
film he cites was produced after 1892 and thus after the widespread
use of the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag, and it's original
straight-arm salute.

Winkler cites the American Ben-Hur (1907) or the Italian Nerone
(1908), although such films did not yet standardize the salute or
make it exclusively Roman. In Spartaco (1914), even Spartacus used
it. Winkler states "In imitation of such historical films, self-
styled "Consul" Gabriele D'Annunzio appropriated the salute in its
now familiar form as a propaganda tool for his political aspirations
upon his occupation of Fiume in 1919. Earlier, D'Annunzio had been
closely involved in Giovanni Pastrone's colossal epic Cabiria (1914),
in which variations of the salute occur several times." Notable
other examples of the salute, by then a standard part of ancient
iconography in the cinema, appear in Ben-Hur (1925) and in Cecil B.
DeMille's Sign of the Cross (1932) and Cleopatra (1934), although the
execution of the gesture was still variable.

Winkler adds "Of particular importance for the visual record are
two films by Leni Riefenstahl, Triumph of the Will (1935) and Olympia
(1938). As is to be expected, the former regularly features the
salute; the latter shows Hitler, German spectators and officials in
Berlin's Olympic stadium, and several victorious German and Italian
athletes giving it. So do a number of athletic teams entering the
stadium. In Italy, Carmine Gallone's Scipione l'Africano (1937) uses
the raised-arm salute as one of its chief visual means to turn
Mussolini into a new Scipio." He notes that the salute is used in
more recent films, sometimes to lesser degrees, and notes that when a
new Commodus triumphantly enters Rome in Ridley Scott's Gladiator
(2000), the salute no longer occurs.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23221 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Constitutionalist Manifest ....and some Livy stuff on Bacchana
P to Q4

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Sardonicus" <sardonicus_@h...>
wrote:
> P to K4
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
> <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > ---Oh Corde!
> >
> > No, not.....NOT, I will not play chess with you...such would be
an
> act
> > of cognitive suicide on my part!!!.....no, no.....not the chess
> > board......no.....((((no!!!))))) ahhhhh
> >
> > How about a good old fashioned round of snakes and ladders??
> >
> > In good fun :)
> >
> > Pompeia
> > (((Who'd whoop ya at Scrabble)
> >
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> > <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > > A. Apollonius Cordus to L.
> > >
> > > > I had to think about this for a while because I
> > > > don't care for the
> > > > arrogant tone and my first instinct was to tell you
> > > > to "F" off.
> > >
> > > It surprises me that one who chooses to advertise his
> > > espousal of sardony in his cognomen should object to
> > > the use of it toward him; but I accept that my tone
> > > was more abrupt than was polite, and I apologise.
> > >
> > > > While I defer to your knowledge of republican
> > > > politics, I take
> > > > umbrage at your insinuation that I am incapable of
> > > > understanding
> > > > written english.
> > >
> > > Please note that I made no such insinuation. What I
> > > suggested is that you had not read carefully what I
> > > had written, for if you had done so I'm sure you would
> > > have understood the difference between what I wrote
> > > and what you responded to.
> > >
> > > > ... Moral uprightness and competency
> > > > are, at least in
> > > > my opinon, absolute. Either one exhibits goodness
> > > > of character and
> > > > capability or one does not. It is subjective only
> > > > in the measure
> > > > that I allow it. If I trust someone enough to
> > > > perform a certain
> > > > duty, they either fulfill my expectations or fail
> > > > and there is
> > > > nothing exceptional or extraordinary about it.
> > > >
> > > > Pass or fail. Do, or do not. There is no try.
> > >
> > > Again, please note that I made no mention of 'trying'.
> > > I quite agree with you that trying to be good does not
> > > equate to being good, though others would not agree
> > > with us on that point.
> > >
> > > I can further understand what you seem to be saying,
> > > which is that you believe that people are either good
> > > or bad and it is impossible for one good person to be
> > > better or worse than another good person (may I
> > > presume that you're a stoic?), though I have to say
> > > that such a notion strikes me as absurd.
> > >
> > > I am dumbfounded, however, by your denial of degrees
> > > of competence. I accept that, with respect to a
> > > particular task, a person or body may be said to be
> > > either competent (i.e., he, she, or it meets the
> > > minimum standards to perform the job adequately) or
> > > incompetent; however, you seem to go further and to
> > > deny that it is impossible for one competent person to
> > > be more competent than another competent person. I
> > > don't believe even an orthodox stoic would propose
> > > such a thing.
> > >
> > > If two persons both meet the minimum standards of
> > > competence, they are both competent. I do not see how
> > > this is incompatible with the idea that one could be
> > > extraordinarily competent and the other merely
> > > ordinarily competent (if we take 'ordinary' and
> > > 'extraordinary' at their logical, literal meanings,
> > > i.e., 'more than most [competent] people' and 'no more
> > > than most [competent] people, respectively).
> > >
> > > I am a competent chess player, for I am competent to
> > > play chess (i.e., I know the rules and have no
> > > physical or mental disability which prevents me from
> > > playing the game). Gary Kasparov is also a competent
> > > chess player (he knows the rules and is physically and
> > > mentally capable). But is it not reasonable to say
> > > that his competence is extraordinary (he is capable of
> > > playing faster, or of playing more games at a time, or
> > > simly of playing to a fair higher standard than
> > > ordinary chess players), whereas mine is not?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> > > your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23222 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Salve,

Some days ago I wrote are rather evocative post that contained a
very descriptive reference to Gaius Iulius Scaurus. It was not my
intention to insult either Scaurus or the Religio. I had intended
that the reference serve as reinforcement to the point I was
attempting to make.

Instead Scaurus did take umbrage at it, have duly carefully
considered the matter for a number of days. He brought this to my
attention via a very forceful public response.

Rather than engage in some potentially long running saga of email
exchanges on the ML, I elected to contact him privately to discuss
the matter. During the course of these exchanges I apologized to him
for any insult that he felt I had offered him or the Relgio. Scaurus
was kind enough to accept that apology and we have since then
maintained a friendly relationship, above and beyond being
gensbrothers.

Scaurus did not require a public apology, nor did he require that I
wear a hair shirt in a real or virtual sense and scourge myself
publicly to atone. His posts were articulate, polite and cogent in
their explanation of where he felt I had crossed the line. Had he
required a public apology I would have given him one.

The purpose of my even alluding to this here in this thread is to
point out that there are ways to resolve an issue without having to
trawl the matter through a public forum, where anyone can jump on
the bandwagon and further exacerbate an already tense situation.
All that is required is to initiate the private dialogue.

My comment about Gaius Iulius Scaurus crossed the line, because he
took offence. On reflection during the course of the private emails
I realized that. That was not my intent, but it happened none the
less. My intention is irrelevant. The fact is Scaurus was offended
and that wasn't my intention and I determined I had to fix the
situation.

The comment about sacrifice appears to many people here (obviously
given the posts) to have crossed the line. If the intention was to
be humorous then clearly like many a comedian whose joke not only
dies but gets booed by a substantial proportion of the audience,
then Sp. Fabia Vera would be justified in withdrawing that material
from her comedic routine.

None of us know if there is some private exchange of emails going on
now to try to resolve the situation. If there is - then it is not
our affair or concern as the two principals would be dealing with it
1-to-1.

If however this is not happening that would indicate that even if
her original intention was not to insult Scaurus Sp. Fabia Vera is
prepared to see the insult stand and for this board to now be
focused on an incident that should have been addressed privately a
long time ago.

It is totally irrelevant and totally counter productive to start
justifying one "wrong" with a litany of the "wrongs" that Scaurus is
allegedly "guilty" of. If ever I were to commit a crime, be arrested
and prosecuted I hope I never would be stupid enough to retain a
lawyer whose defence to the charge would have been the guilt of the
victim in other utterly unrelated incidents. This doesn't even rate
as mitigation were I to be found guilty.

I make one appeal to Sp. Fabia Vera to bring this wretched exchange
to an end, to not sit on pride or ego and to realize that in any
family, community or organization there are limits to how far one
should go; to acknowledge that two wrongs do not make a right and
that this has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do
with common sense, manners and the need to have some form of
rational and relevant discussion here. In my recent posts on the
constitution I have tried to avoid any reference to anyone and yet
still address an issue. I am sure they make less interesting reading
than the post that gave offence to Scaurus, but that is the price
you pay for trying to steer a middle course.

Vera, your persistent refusal to say effectively "Ok well I found it
funny, some others were amused also, but it was never meant to give
offence and therefore I'll sort it out" indicates to me that you did
intend all along to give offence. I cannot accept that such an off-
hand banal comedic aside that was not even part of a bigger post has
anything to do with a defence of free speech.

It does seem to have an awful lot to do with poking Scaurus in the
eye with a stick, and having done that to then to continue to grind
the stick into the eye socket. Even if you won't deal with the
matter can you at least refrain from trying to defend it on such
grounds as you have so far, as to continue with that defence just
implies that we are all feeble minded enough to "buy" into this.
This incident just shows no sign of dying because you will do
nothing to give the matter a swift death and decent burial. You are
responsible for this situation and it is your responsibility to sort
it out and not hide behind some spurious platform of the right to
free speech. Then just maybe for a few days we can focus on
something more relevant to Nova Roma and reconstruction.

Vale

Gn. Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23223 From: M T Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: New citizen
Euphemia Cassia Mercuria

Salvete!

I would like to thank my fellow citizens for the warm welcome I hae recieved. I must beg your indulgences as I explore the hallowed annals of novaroma.org that I may establish myself as a proper and productive citizen. I will be graduating from college next Saturday and am looking forward to devoting much of my time to Nova Roma, the Religio, and learning all that I may about our Roman Empire, past and present.

Valete,
E. Cassia Mercuria

lanius117@... wrote:
G. Lanius Falco Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites

As Propraetor of Nova Britannia, I wish to announce the newest citizen of our
fair province, Euphemia Cassia Mercuria, of Regionis Maine. Please join me
in extending a warm welcome.

Valete,

G. Lanius Falco
*****************************************************
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus Nova Britannia
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Paterfamilias Gens Lania


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23224 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Multiple issues
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

RT has been hammering me like Vulcan for the past week. It is exam week
and I have exams and turn papers to grade, two Ph.D candidates on whose
committees I sit who will be defending dissertations next week and, as
deputy department head, I have administrative duties organising the fall
course schedule. I apologise for a much great level of inactivity than
usual because of it.

There are two issues which I would like to address. I have been accused
of calling all Italians fascists and racists. This is a blatant and
malicious lie. In answer to some question from Tribunis Plebis Fr.
Apulus Caesar, I expressed some opinions about Italian politics. I
don't normally reveal a great deal of my RT life here. I shall now. I
love Italy and Italians. My first wife was Italian from Napoli. I love
her and her family dearly even though she was taken from me in a tragic
automobile accident three years into our marriage. I am still in
regular contact with my Italian inlaws by email and telephone and visit
them wheneeer I am in Italy. By way of background, she was very
critical of the Italian government, being a supporter of the PCI, He
grandfather and uncles were murdered by Mussolini's secret police; her
father escaped execution by the Gestapo only by a miraculous jailbreak
organised by partisans. This, in addition to the loss of my American
relatives fighting Fascism makes the issue intensely important to me. I
do not believe that Italians are generally Fascists, although I think
the Italian prime minister has made a disgusting blunder by including
former members of the MSI, the Fascist party, and the Northern League
which harbours deeply racist attitudes to my Neapolitan inlaws. I don't
think everyone who voted for Berlusconi is a Fascist, but I do think
they exercised bad judgmenjt in supporting him when the government
allaince included former members of the now largely defunct MSI and the
all too active Northern League. I think my relationship to my Italian
family gives me some rights to have these opinions. And I think they
are relevant to NR because charges to the contrary have been made in
Nova Roma about them. I love Italy and Italians because I share the
closest possible tie a foreign may have to them: I married into them
People may disagree with my opinions, but people who claim that I bear
malice toward Italy and Italians are accursed liars..

Second, I don't much care if Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta accuses me of
molestating farm animals rather than sacrifricing them on the main list,
since I have lost entirely any respect for her and her opinions and I
have a thick Roman skin whn it comes to politically-motivated slanders.
However, I was deeply offended to the comparison of animal sacrifice to
human sacrifice, even as an alleged joke, because it was disrespectful
first to our Roman ancestors for whom animal sacrifice was the most
sacred religious caerimonia, And, second, we cannot advance the mos
maiorum if the maiores are subjected to open, explicit ridicule by a
priest of the Religio Romana Publica, particularly from a priest of al
foreign cult. I am also deeply aiming at unity within the Relgiiio and
its practitioners, regarding of the position on sacrifice in the Religio
Publica, though authoring the recent sacrifice decretum.. I defy anyone
to find anyting to find anything in the decretum of animal sacrifrice
which does not earnestly see to maintain compromise and protection of
the rights of the greatest possible posssble diversity within the
practitioner community.. Priests shoudl not attempt to disrupt this
compromise of unity.

This is all at this point I have to say on these matters..

Valete,

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23225 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-08
Subject: Re: Tribunician veto
Salve A. Apollonius Cordus and Lucius Quintius Constantius who wrote in part:

"I hadn't thought of this. I appreciate your
bringing it up. If a comitia legislates that the
Tribunes cannot veto a law properly passed by the
comitiae, that would be an acceptable limitation of
the power under the terms of the Constitution."



A Tribune can NOT now veto something that is constitutional and legal. It is only when something is unconstitutional or violates current law that they can act. They can also act when something violates the letter or "sprit" of the constitution. For instance The Senate can pass a SC to raise the amount of the taxes imposed to say $20 US per year. Legal, no problem. If they passed a SC that required 50% of a citizens macronational income to be paid in taxes I am sure a groups of Tribunes would, voting 5-0 , veto it because it would destroy NR as the exits would be clogged with the masses leaving . An action that would push people toward the exits in large numbers should and would be seen as not in the "sprit" of the constitution.

Also an ordinary lex can not increase or decrease the power of any magistrate. The constitution would have to be amended to remove ability to veto anything listed as coming with in the purview of the veto.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: politicog
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Tribunician veto (WAS: Constitutionalist Manifest)



--- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
>
> > I do think that it would be unwise for the
> Tribunes
> > to veto the final vote of a Comitia. Doing so
> would
> > likely be suicidal to a future political career in
> > Nova Roma. But since, to my knowledge, there is
> no
> > mechanism for impeachment of a Tribune, and no
> > requirement that a Tribune "must" run for any
> other
> > office, who is to stop them?
>
> I would expect, though I admit I can't think of any
> historical examples, that a tribune is liable for
> prosecution once his term of office has expired, as
> with other magistrates; consequently no tribune can
> be
> certain that he would get away with doing such a
> thing.

This is something that has been troubling me. Are we
relying on a particular Nova Roman law in this matter,
or are we relying on the mos maiorum?

I had read a magistrate post the assertion that a
"curule" magistrate could not be prosecuted during
his/her term. Does this apply to all magistrates, or
only the curule magistrates?

If we are relying the mos maiorum for this concept,
I'm afraid I have to object on the matter. My
understanding of the ancient republican constitution
is that for most magistracies, there was a waiting
period after the end of the term before that
individual could candidate for a higher magistacy.
This provision does not exist in Nova Roman law. This
means that an individual could run for and be elected
to several successive magistacies, and thereby evade
trial for years. This offends my basic sense of
justice and accountability.

However, it would be simpler, as you imply
> (or
> at least as I infer), to legislate to prohibit
> tribunes from vetoing leges or plebiscita once
> enacted
> (or indeed at any time after the polls open, as was
> the case historically); I'd support such a measure.
>

I hadn't thought of this. I appreciate your
bringing it up. If a comitia legislates that the
Tribunes cannot veto a law properly passed by the
comitiae, that would be an acceptable limitation of
the power under the terms of the Constitution.



> > And what happens if we elect a full-slate of
> > Tribunes at election time, and then three or more
> of
> > them disappear? Wouldn't that in effect paralyze
> > the
> > Tribunes for the duration of that term?
> >
> > Is there any subsisting legislation that says if
> a
> > magistrate/Tribune is absent for (X) length of
> time,
> > the office is considered vacant? If not, should
> > there
> > be?
>
> I don't think there is any such law, and again I
> would
> support an effort to enact one. However, there are
> two
> things to point out. The first is that it's clearly
> the duty of every tribune to make sure that his
> colleagues are performing their duties properly, and
> therefore I would consider that a tribune who failed
> to organise a by-election to replace a missing or
> inactive colleague would be liable to prosecution
> for
> failing to do so.

I would also support an effort to declare offices
vacant after a certain period of time has passed with
no contact from the magistrate.

However, your suggestion of prosecuting a Tribune
for failing to call a by-election needs to be taken in
context of your earlier statement that a Tribune can
only be prosecuted after their term has ended.
Nothing could be done during the term in question.



Lucius Quintius Constantius






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23226 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re:
Salve Lucius Quintius Constantius


I have only been a citizen for 27 months so I don't know how often this has happen in the past but it does seem to happening a lot this year . So far a Quaestor, A Plebeian Aedile, and now it seems a Praetor and Senator. I hope this is the end of it.

How about a filling fee? I f you want to run you post XX$$ and if you serve your full term you can get the money back at the end of your term or you can use it as your fee for the next election. NR gets to keep the interest on the money from all the candidates.

We could also require that magistrates e-mail the Censors or Consuls once a month?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: politicog
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 1264



--- Fortunatus <labienus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Apparently it seems to be a frequent
> > occurance of elected magistrates disappearing
> without
> > notifying anyone. Hence my recent suggestion of
> > legislating that (x) amount of time without any
> > contact from a magistrate results in the office
> being
> > declared vacant.
>
> This is not a bad idea at all. Note that it may be
> unconstitutional in
> the case of the ordinarii, however.
>
> Constitution, IV.A:
> Should one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict
> in his duties, that
> magistrate may be removed by a law originating in
> the comitia that
> elected him.
>
> I reat that to mean that the comitia that elected a
> given derelict
> magistrate must be convened to enact a lex to remove
> that magistrate
> each and every time the problem occurs. I suppose
> that a loose
> interpretation of the sentence would allow such a
> lex to pass; that's a
> matter for the college of tribuni plebis to decide.
>
>

Or we could pass a Constitutional amendment making
the vacancy automatic after a certain period of time.

Lucius Quintius Constantius




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23227 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1262
Salvete omnes,

Lucium Iulium Sullam quaestorem oro vos faciatis!

That is, I have met this fine man in person last Summer and we had
nice opportunity to take a walk. His kindness and modesty are
examplary and I'm convinced that he would make a fine quaestor.

Valete,



>Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:55:47 -0000
> From: "Lucius Iulius" <21aprile@...>
>Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
>
>AVETE CIVES
>
>I'm here announcing my intention to candidate for the Quaestorship
>for next elections.
>
>I want to serve Rome and Nova Roma with all my engagement, as I
>believe in all our purposes and projects.
>I also think I could be a good Quaestor as I'm the "oldest" among the
>candidates, and probably the one with the biggest amount of
>experience .
>I have served Nova Roma initially from the inside of Provincia
>Italica, then coming out in some bigger involvements for our Res
>Publica.
>
>Here is my brief Curriculum Vitae:
>I have followed the courses of our local Academia, initially directed
>by Ill. Manius Constantinus Serapio, then becoming his own director
>(Rector).
>I have recently been called in our provincial governemnt (Curia
>Italica) by our Propraetor Serapio, being appointed as an apparitor
>(Scriba).
>I'm directing for Nova Roma our project "Interview the Expert"
>("Chiedilo all'Esperto" in Italia).
>I belong to the cohors consularis of our Senior Consul Gnaeus Salix
>Astur.
>I am involved in our project of restoring the Sanctuary of Magna
>Mater and in its relative founds raising.
>
>I'm sure of how good are all the other candidates, and even for this
>reason I'm sure of how good could I do being elected as Quaestor this
>year.
>For these reasons I ask your vote, Civis!
>
>I'll be glad to answer to any of your quaestions about me or my
>offices.
>
>BENE VALETE
>L IUL SULLA


--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Quaestor
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23228 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: About what to do with disappeared magisrates
Ave



I think an easier solution about magistrates loosing contact with NR is
being overlooked.



Magistrates are obviously dedicated people and I do not think they�d have
anything against providing their RL contacts (home and office telephone,
mobile, anything else deemed useful) to the Censores (and the censores their
own to the consuls), on the explicit condition that they�d be used only in
given circumstances, like when they have not been heard from for 2 weeks (I
think one month is too long of a period for a magistrate to be away without
notice) without any evidence suggesting they are in vacation.



Once having such a list of numbers, I think it would be a good and effective
use of public funds the purchase of a 5$ and and/or a 5� international
calling card specifically for getting back in touch with disappeared
magistrates (to be noted, as an example, that a 5� calling card allows for
more than 5 hours of international calls to the US and EU member countries
here).



Just an idea



Vale Bene



DCF

PF Constantinia

Aedilis Urbis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23229 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Justicia
Salve Fabia Vera,
< also as sacerdos Veneris almost forgetting the Veneralia...

I did not forget the Veneralia at all. But as I was about to post the ritual that I did on behalf
of Nova Roma, I saw that a fine ritual for the Veneralia was done by someone else (Galerius??) and
was posted by Pontiff G Iulius Scaurus.

If I had posted mine as well, it would have come across as an egotistical "Don't read the ritual
posted by an honored Pontiff, I am the Sacerdos Veneris and only my ritual counts". At least I
have respect for a Pontiff whom I believe has helped the Religio grow ny leaps and bounds.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23230 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Candidacy for Quaestorship
Salve Lucius Iulius,
Salvete citizens,

Having now seen all candidates who wish to stand for Quaestor, I wish to add my voice in support
of a fine gentlemen named L Iulius Sulla for Quaestor.

I've had the opportunity to get to know him as we ran against eachother for Quaestor a few months
ago and it would please me immensely if he would now become one of my colleagues in the
quaestorship.

Valete,
Diana Octavia
Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23231 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Where is Noricus?
Salvete Quirites!

I have since some time been searching for Illustris Gnaeus Octavius
Noricus. I share the point of view of many that he is not the kind of
person who disappears without leaving a message. He was my Accensus
last year and he did an excellent job. I also had the pleasure to
meet him in person during the Nova Roman Rally in Bologna last summer
and he made the same favourable impression there.

I have written to a lot of people in Germania and they in their turn
have searched for him. I have phoned him directly and now I have
found a citizen that is willing to do more extensive search for him.
Let us see what the coming days will yield.

I must admit that I am very worried, what has happened to our
co-citizen and dear friend? I will include Noricus in my prayers and
I ask You all to do the same!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23232 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Missing Praetors - Suggestion
Salve Paulinus,

<I suggest that any of the magistrates
<and even active citizens for that matter, give the email sites of NR
<to another family member or friend and give their email address to
<NR with instructions to contact NR if something should happen. In
<that way NR is not left out in limbo.

I agree. For my part it would be Decius Iunius Palladius whom my family and friends would call if
I were unable to attend to my duties for any reason. Another citizen and long time friend Quintus
Moravius would also be informed through my Pagan Federation friends.

I suggest that everyone use this sort of 'emergency plan'. Besides the fact that someone would
need to take over our work, many of us have long time friends here and we would like to know if
one of them were sick so that we could send them good wishes across the distances.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23233 From: lcpontonius Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: My Sad announcement
Due to a recent personal matter, I will no longer be able to
fullfill my duties as Scriba Propraetorisof Nova Brittania, nor
shall I make a good candidate for Quaestor. I sadly withdraw my name
from the ballot for the upcoming elections and must step down from
my Scriba duties. I apologize, but Family obligations must be
fullfilled for me first. Thanks

Lucius Cassius Pontonius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23234 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required
Salve Fabia Vera,

<I take your request in the impartial spirit it is given but I must
<respectfully decline.

LOL! Don't apologize, please!! Your refusal to apologize pleases me in a sadistic sort of way. I
knew that your mouth would get you into trouble one day.

< Why?
<A. Scaurus implied that Fuscus and Apulus were racist, facists due to
<his losing the legal argument concerning the religio. Insulting
<people does not enhance the Religio.

Once you mentioned to me offlist that you were often rude to me because of karmic debt, a very
un-Roman standpoint. (Oops I mentioned a private conversation!). I do believe that once again you
are falling into this pattern. You are not a God dishing out punishment for karmic debt as you see
fit.

<B. in my opinion he deserved a humorous reminder about Concordia,

Humorous? Nice try. You never have made jokes on the ML before. You are anything but the humorous
playful type. A bit of advice: don't quit your day job to be a stand-up comedian.

Your freedom of speech argument doesn't cut it either. If you had called him a jerk, I wouldn't
care less. If you had forwarded an personal email (the reason sited for the nota against Drusus I
believe) I also wouldn't care less. But you've crossed a line. I do believe that if something were
to now happen to Scaurus you would be suspect number one since your comment would be proof of
pre-meditation.

You are not getting the laughing support or the free reign to say whatever you want to whomever
you want like you had expected. Maybe it is your belief in karmic debt that has found YOU at last.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23235 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: G Iulius' post (was Attn:Praetores: Response required)
Salve Gnaeus Iulius Caesar,

Your post below is excellent. Having read it, I for one will now drop the subject because between
you and Decius Iunius Palladius, you have made all of the points that I would have made. Any
further comments of mine would be bandwidth and redundant.

Vale,
Diana Octavia

<gnaeus_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Salve,

Some days ago I wrote are rather evocative post that contained a
very descriptive reference to Gaius Iulius Scaurus. It was not my
intention to insult either Scaurus or the Religio. I had intended
that the reference serve as reinforcement to the point I was
attempting to make.

Instead Scaurus did take umbrage at it, have duly carefully
considered the matter for a number of days. He brought this to my
attention via a very forceful public response.

Rather than engage in some potentially long running saga of email
exchanges on the ML, I elected to contact him privately to discuss
the matter. During the course of these exchanges I apologized to him
for any insult that he felt I had offered him or the Relgio. Scaurus
was kind enough to accept that apology and we have since then
maintained a friendly relationship, above and beyond being
gensbrothers.

Scaurus did not require a public apology, nor did he require that I
wear a hair shirt in a real or virtual sense and scourge myself
publicly to atone. His posts were articulate, polite and cogent in
their explanation of where he felt I had crossed the line. Had he
required a public apology I would have given him one.

The purpose of my even alluding to this here in this thread is to
point out that there are ways to resolve an issue without having to
trawl the matter through a public forum, where anyone can jump on
the bandwagon and further exacerbate an already tense situation.
All that is required is to initiate the private dialogue.

My comment about Gaius Iulius Scaurus crossed the line, because he
took offence. On reflection during the course of the private emails
I realized that. That was not my intent, but it happened none the
less. My intention is irrelevant. The fact is Scaurus was offended
and that wasn't my intention and I determined I had to fix the
situation.

The comment about sacrifice appears to many people here (obviously
given the posts) to have crossed the line. If the intention was to
be humorous then clearly like many a comedian whose joke not only
dies but gets booed by a substantial proportion of the audience,
then Sp. Fabia Vera would be justified in withdrawing that material
from her comedic routine.

None of us know if there is some private exchange of emails going on
now to try to resolve the situation. If there is - then it is not
our affair or concern as the two principals would be dealing with it
1-to-1.

If however this is not happening that would indicate that even if
her original intention was not to insult Scaurus Sp. Fabia Vera is
prepared to see the insult stand and for this board to now be
focused on an incident that should have been addressed privately a
long time ago.

It is totally irrelevant and totally counter productive to start
justifying one "wrong" with a litany of the "wrongs" that Scaurus is
allegedly "guilty" of. If ever I were to commit a crime, be arrested
and prosecuted I hope I never would be stupid enough to retain a
lawyer whose defence to the charge would have been the guilt of the
victim in other utterly unrelated incidents. This doesn't even rate
as mitigation were I to be found guilty.

I make one appeal to Sp. Fabia Vera to bring this wretched exchange
to an end, to not sit on pride or ego and to realize that in any
family, community or organization there are limits to how far one
should go; to acknowledge that two wrongs do not make a right and
that this has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do
with common sense, manners and the need to have some form of
rational and relevant discussion here. In my recent posts on the
constitution I have tried to avoid any reference to anyone and yet
still address an issue. I am sure they make less interesting reading
than the post that gave offence to Scaurus, but that is the price
you pay for trying to steer a middle course.

Vera, your persistent refusal to say effectively "Ok well I found it
funny, some others were amused also, but it was never meant to give
offence and therefore I'll sort it out" indicates to me that you did
intend all along to give offence. I cannot accept that such an off-
hand banal comedic aside that was not even part of a bigger post has
anything to do with a defence of free speech.

It does seem to have an awful lot to do with poking Scaurus in the
eye with a stick, and having done that to then to continue to grind
the stick into the eye socket. Even if you won't deal with the
matter can you at least refrain from trying to defend it on such
grounds as you have so far, as to continue with that defence just
implies that we are all feeble minded enough to "buy" into this.
This incident just shows no sign of dying because you will do
nothing to give the matter a swift death and decent burial. You are
responsible for this situation and it is your responsibility to sort
it out and not hide behind some spurious platform of the right to
free speech. Then just maybe for a few days we can focus on
something more relevant to Nova Roma and reconstruction.

Vale

Gn. Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23236 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Aedile Plebeo
Salvete Illustrus Marullinus et Omnes,

I'm very happy to read the candidacy of Aelius Solaris Marullinus,
my friend and firstly an wonderful citizen. I was lucky to work with
him in several projects and he served the Provincia Italia and Nova
Roma with special and appreciable dedication. I appointed him as
Scriba in my last Propraetorship and he served as well as possible
managing the italian nova roman websites. The re-appointment by
actual Propraetot Italiae Manius Constaninus Serapio is a
confirmation of his skills.
And I was lucky to meet him directly at different times. He's a
wonderful man and friend and he did a great job during the last Nova
Roman Rally.

I wish him good luck and I invite you all to support and vote this
candidate to the Office of Plebeian Aedile.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senator, Tribunus et Legatus Italiae


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "marullinus" <marullinus@e...>
wrote:
> Aelius Solaris Marullinus Civibus SPD
>
> I, Aelius Solaris Marullinus, 45, Nova Roman citizen for the past
two
> years, come in front of you to present myself as candidate as
Aedilus
> Plebis. During these past two years I've been working with
different
> duties inside Italia Provincia, and especially for the management
of
> the Provincial website. Together with the Italic magistrates, I
had a
> preminent role in the organization the International Nova Roman
> Rally, held in Bologna in August 2003. Candidating to this office
is
> for me the way to sustain with strength our Res Publica and the
best
> for Nova Roma, offering my collaboration to the other Aedilis
Plebis
> and to the Aediles Curules.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23237 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
Salvete omnes,

Several months ago one of our citizens (Tribune Paulinus?) asked us
to find some good poems about Rome. Here is one by one of my
favourite poets Rudyard Kipling I pinched from the Imperial Rome 2
list thanks to Doris Howe there. It was a pleasant surprise since I
have a few books of Kipling's poems and works but I had never seen
this one. Well better late than never I suppose:


The Roman Centurion's Song

Roman Occupation of Britain, A.D. 300

Legate, I had the news last night --my cohort ordered home
By ships to Portus Itius and thence by road to Rome.
I've marched the companies aboard, the arms are stowed below:
Now let another take my sword. Command me not to go!

I've served in Britain forty years, from Vectis to the Wall,
I have none other home than this, nor any life at all.
Last night I did not understand, but, now the hour draws near
That calls me to my native land, I feel that land is here.

Here where men say my name was made, here where my work
was done;
Here where my dearest dead are laid--my wife--my wife and
son;
Here where time, custom, grief and toil, age, memory, service,
love,
Have rooted me in British soil. Ah, how can I remove?

For me this land, that sea, these airs, those folk and fields
surffice.
What purple Southern pomp can match our changeful Northern
skies,
Black with December snows unshed or pearled with August
haze--
The clanging arch of steel-grey March, or June's long-lighted
days?

You'll follow widening Rhodanus till vine an olive lean
Aslant before the sunny breeze that sweeps Nemausus clean
To Arelate's triple gate; but let me linger on,
Here where our stiff-necked British oaks confront Euroclydon!

You'll take the old Aurelian Road through shore-descending
pines
Where, blue as any peacock's neck, the Tyrrhene Ocean shines.
You'll go where laurel crowns are won, but--will you e'er forget
The scent of hawthorn in the sun, or bracken in the wet?

Let me work here for Britain's sake--at any task you will--
A marsh to drain, a road to make or native troops to drill.
Some Western camp (I know the Pict) or granite Border keep,
Mid seas of heather derelict, where our old messmates sleep.

Legate, I come to you in tears--My cohort ordered home!
I've served in Britain forty years. What should I do in Rome?
Here is my heart, my soul, my mind--the only life I know.
I cannot leave it all behind. Command me not to go!

Rudyard Kipling


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23238 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Lucius Iulius Sulla for Quaestor
SALVE POMPEIA

I thank you for your kind words and for supporting me in Quaestor's
election.
I have to say that the "marginal defeat" that occurred to me in last
Quaestor elections, when Diana Octavia Aventina was elected, is well
tolerated as I see how she is doing a very good work in her office.
I could not do better, I have to say.

About my last meeting with some Cives in the U.S., I have to say
that this meeting itself gave a great push to my decision to
candidate for Questorship. When some Cives are able to win all the
limitations of the internet in such a meeting, it is wonderful to
see how our passion can become a beautiful bond.

Thank you for your support.

BENE VALE
L IUL SULLA




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia"
<scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Lucius Iulius Sulla et Omnes Nova Roma:
>
> I am very pleased and encouraged by the fact that Lucius Iulius
Sulla,
> despite having been marginally defeated in the last Quaestor bi
> election, has shown the confidence and the courage to dust himself
> off, and continue in his endeavors to serve the republic as
Quaestor.
>
> It is indeed not comforting to lose an election; it takes firmitus
to
> continue on, despite this.
>
> As I supported you in the last election, Lucius Iulius, I continue
to
> support you. You have been enthusiastically involved in your
> provincia activities well before I had the opportunity to get to
know
> you, through working with you on the Magna Mater initiatives, and
> projects within the cohortes of Curule Aedile Marcus Iulius
Perusianus.
>
> You promote your provincia and Nova Roma as a whole through
additional
> initiatives in your project "Interview the Experts", which adds the
> important element of academia, and serves to extend the hand of our
> Republic to a macronational venue with an interest in the culture
and
> historical aspects of Rome....you are well in line with the
mission of
> Sodalitas Egressus.
>
> Quirites, you may ask, but whatever does this have to do with
money,
> which is what a Quaestor handles? Well, Lucius Iulius has handled
> funds responsibly. In addition to the above, he recently, secured
> the opportunity for a presentation in his home town on the Magna
Mater
> project to the Rotary Club Junior, in which a donation was given by
> these young people, to the Magna Mater Fund.
>
> The most important element, I believe, above and beyond universal
math
> skills, in which he has shown through my knowledge of him to be
quite
> competant is the degree and sincerity of his commitment.
>
> Further, as an illustration to this commitment to Nova Roma, Lucius
> Iulius, traveling in capacity of other affairs, had the
opportunity to
> recently meet with citizens in the U.S. It is good to know that
> wherever you travel, chances are you will easily meet up with a
> citizen of NR.
>
> As you continue, Lucius Iulius Sulla, to demonstrate such
> extraordinary commitment to serving the republic, I shall continue
to
> offer you my support, and I will be thinking of you at the cista
come
> election time.
>
> Buona fortuna....Sulla for Quaestor
>
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23239 From: Laura Ferre-Middleton Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Congratulations
Vale Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus,

Please allow me to be one of the first to congratulate you on your
new appointment to Flamen Volturnalis.

Salve,
Camilla Ambrosia Artora Callista
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23240 From: justin_lundeen1984 Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Dedication to the Gods
Hi all, I'm not a member of Nova Roma, but I am wanting to dedicate
myself to the Roman Gods. Are there any rituals, or anything
specific I must do to do this? Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

Justin Lundeen
justin_lundeen@...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23241 From: Laura Ferre-Middleton Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: New Citizenship
Valete,

I am honored to be a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am very excited to
join a very intriguing and diverse group of people.

Salvete,

Camilla Ambrosia Artora Callista
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23242 From: philipp.hanenberg@web.de Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Attn:Praetores: Response required / multiple issues
Salvete, oratores.

Concertationes ultimorum dierum, quis hoc dixit vel non censuit, interdum infantiles comparent.
Sermo de constitutione incipiebat. Saltim de initio.

Nullus, sic mea cognitio, religionem negabat vel minuebat.
Nunc nonnullus sentit non modo ille improbus tractaverit sed etiam ille non intellexerit.
Etiam alii viam ibant, hactenus: Nova ratio rei publicae de italia.

Condicio deterior fuerit, ut Sp. Fabia Vera dixit: Gaius Iulius Scaurus sacrificium erit.
Multa ad illud scripserit, appelandus tacebat.
Denique ipsa Sp. Fabia Vera dicebat, hoc iocationem iit.
In dubio pro reo.

Tamen est modus in rebus, sunt certi denique fines et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum, Sp. Fabia Vera.
Quod non vetat lex, hoc vetat fieri pudor.
Sp. Fabia Vera,
deliberandum est saepe, statuendum est semel et nulli tacuisse nocet, nocet esse loctum.

Hunc, quem mensa tibi, quem cena paravit amicum, esse putas fidae pectus amicitiae?
Aprum amat et mullos et sumen et ostrea, non te.
Tam bene si cenem, noster amicus erit.


Valete
Phlippus Flavius Conservatus Maior

*Homo sum, humani nhil a me alienum puto*


____________________________________________________________________
Der WEB.DE Virenschutz schuetzt Ihr Postfach vor dem Wurm Sober.A-F!
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23243 From: philipp.hanenberg@web.de Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
Aesopus agricolaque


Usu peritus hariolo velocior
vulgo esse fertur, causa sed non dicitur,
notescet quae nunc primum fabella mea:

Habenti cuidam pecora pepererunt oves
agnos humano capite. Monstro exterritus
ad consulendos currit maerens hariolos.
Hic pertinere ad domini respondet caput
et avertendum victima periculum.
Ille autem affirmat coniugem esse adulteram
et insitivos significari liberos,
sed espiari posse maiore hostia.
Quid multa ? Variis dissident sententiis
hominisque curam cura maiore aggravant.
Aesopus ibi stans, naris emunctae senex,
natura numquam verba cui potuit dare:
"Si procurare vis ostentum, rustice,
uxores" inquit "da tuis pastoribus."

(Phädrus III, 3)

Philippus Flavius Conservatus Maior


____________________________________________________________________
Der WEB.DE Virenschutz schuetzt Ihr Postfach vor dem Wurm Sober.A-F!
Kostenfrei fuer FreeMail Nutzer. http://f.web.de/?mc=021158
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23244 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: New Citizenship
Salve Honorable Camilla Ambrosia Artora Callista!

I am very glad to see You here at last. Please accept my warm
welcome! Don't hesitate to ask if You think I can be of help.

>Valete,
>
>I am honored to be a new citizen of Nova Roma. I am very excited to
>join a very intriguing and diverse group of people.
>
>Salvete,
>
>Camilla Ambrosia Artora Callista

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23245 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: New Citizenship
Salve Callista,

It gives me a very special great pleasure to welcome you among us ;-) I hope
you will find here all that you heart desire.

In pace deorum

C Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Scriba censoris
Candidate for Quaestor
www.members.aol.com/cornmoraviusl/welcome/index


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23246 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"

. Here is one by one of my
> favourite poets Rudyard Kipling It was a pleasant surprise since I
> have a few books of Kipling's poems and works but I had never seen
> this one.

Yes I remember this. I was a great Kipling fan in my youth. I'm pretty
sure it's from either 'Puck of Pook's Hill' or the sequel 'Farewell Rewards
and Faries'

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23247 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-09
Subject: Re: Now For Something Different - A Good Roman Poem!
Salve Flavia,

Thanks for the information on that poem.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "k.a.wright" <k.a.wright@n...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
>
> . Here is one by one of my
> > favourite poets Rudyard Kipling It was a pleasant surprise
since I
> > have a few books of Kipling's poems and works but I had never
seen
> > this one.
>
> Yes I remember this. I was a great Kipling fan in my youth. I'm
pretty
> sure it's from either 'Puck of Pook's Hill' or the
sequel 'Farewell Rewards
> and Faries'
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula