Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. May 17-20, 2004

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23423 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: CORRECTED Comitia Populi Tributa convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23424 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23425 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23426 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: A Codex for Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23427 From: gnaeuscrassus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23428 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Endorsement of Caius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus as Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23429 From: lovelyone49 Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: A Movie Review
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23430 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Threats to Resign Citizenship (was [Nova-Roma] The Praetorian Elect
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23431 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23432 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Pompeia For Praetor !!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23433 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23434 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23435 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23436 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Pompeia For Praetor !!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23437 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23438 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23439 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23440 From: L. Didius Geminus Sceptius Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23441 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23442 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Praetors; in the Interim; A Helpful Suggestion
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23443 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23444 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Endorsement for Praetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23445 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23446 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23447 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: the power & the election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23448 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: E-Mail Address / Subject
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23449 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23450 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23451 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Endorsement for Praetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23452 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Nova Roma never ceases to amaze!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23453 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Endorsement for Praetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23454 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23455 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23456 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23457 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23458 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23459 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23460 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: ante diem XV Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23461 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23462 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23463 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23464 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23465 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23466 From: sabina_equitia_doris Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: I Am Voting for 'Po'
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23467 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23468 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23469 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23470 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23471 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23472 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23473 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Edictum Censoris CFQ VII about the re-organisation of the Cohors Ce
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23474 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Edictum Censoris CFQ VIII about the assignment of Scribae to differ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23475 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23476 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Research - Text base, source for law proposals.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23477 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: ROMAN DAYS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23478 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23479 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23480 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - VI - Imperium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23481 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23482 From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: A Movie Review
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23483 From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Terra cotta lamp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23484 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23485 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23486 From: asseri@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Terra cotta lamp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23487 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23488 From: asseri@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Terra cotta lamp
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23489 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Welcome back Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23490 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23491 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23492 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23493 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23494 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying th
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23495 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for sayin
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23496 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23497 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23498 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Vacatio, Derelictio and the Constitution
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23499 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23500 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for sayin
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23501 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23502 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: ante diem XIV Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23503 From: a_cato2002 Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Good To Have You Back Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23504 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - VII - Lex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23505 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23506 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23507 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23508 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Call - The Comitia Populi and Comitia Plebis Tributa are convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23509 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23510 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23511 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23512 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Comitia Centuriata Convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23513 From: John Walzer Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Plebeian Aedile
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23514 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23515 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: AGRIPPINA: Fwd: Provincia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23516 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Comments on Leges Arminias
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23517 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23518 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23519 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - VIII - Intercessio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23520 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: My 2 Cents
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23521 From: Julia Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Terra Sigillata Pieces for Sale
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23522 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Assidui Citizens
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23523 From: J. Michael Keba Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23524 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23525 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23526 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Welcome back Pater Patriae!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23527 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23528 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23529 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23530 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23531 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23532 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23533 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23534 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23535 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23536 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23537 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23538 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23539 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius Iul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23540 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23541 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23542 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23543 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23544 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23545 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23546 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23547 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23548 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23549 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23550 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23551 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23552 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23553 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Back
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23554 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23555 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23556 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23557 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23558 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23559 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23560 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23561 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23562 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23563 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23564 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23565 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for ...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23566 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23567 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23568 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23569 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23570 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23571 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23572 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23573 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23574 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23575 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: ante diem XIII Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23576 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23577 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - IX - Edictum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23578 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23579 From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: The recent legal business
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23580 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: The recent legal business
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23581 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23582 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23583 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23584 From: G.C. Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23585 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23586 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23587 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23588 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: The recent legal business (Scaurus)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23589 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23590 From: G.C. Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23591 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23592 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23593 From: Ambrosius Celetrus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23594 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23595 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23596 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23597 From: G.C. Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Maybe a tad off-topic (was: Re: Capitalization)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23598 From: Ambrosius Celetrus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23423 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: CORRECTED Comitia Populi Tributa convened
[I am informed that Lucius Cassius Pontonius has withdrawn his candidacy
for the Quaestorship. Thus this corrected call of the Comitia Populi
Tributa. -- GnEM ]

(Originally posted 16 Mai 2004 CE)

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dixit

In accordance with our laws, pullarius Gaius Iulius Scaurus has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia
Populi Tributa. The augury being favorable, I now convene the Comitia
Populi Tributa for the purpose of electing one Quaestor to fill the
vacancy left by the resignation of Livia Cornelia Hibernia, and to vote
on a law that will allow for corrections to the spelling, grammar, and
formating of the text of our laws.

The presidium shall be Poblilia.

Schedule for the Contio and vote:

17 Mai (dies comitialis) Contio begins 21:00 Roma time
18 Mai (dies comitialis)
19 Mai (dies comitialis)
20 Mai (dies comitialis)
21 Mai (nefastus publicus) public religious festival, no debate
22 Mai (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
23 Mai (nefastus publicus) public religious festival, no debate
24 Mai (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
25 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
26 Mai (dies comitialis)
27 Mai (dies comitialis)
28 Mai (dies comitialis)
29 Mai (dies comitialis)
30 Mai (dies comitialis)
31 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting ends 18:00 Roma time

The candidates for the vacant office are

QUAESTOR (One position open)

Gaius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus -- citizen since 2002/12/02
Lucius Iulius Sulla -- citizen since 2002/08/21
Lucius Cornelius Cicero -- citizen since 2003/11/23


--- Begin text of Lex Equitia de Corrigendis Legum Erratis ---

LEX EQVITIA DE CORRIGENDIS LEGVM ERRATIS

Paragraphus IV. A. 8. Constitutionis Novae Romae magistro araneario
aliisque vigintisexviris [XXVIviris] ut 'eis officiis necessariis quae
lege indicta erunt fungantur.'

Paragraph IV. A. 8. of the Constitution of Nova Roma mandates that the
webmaster and other vigintisexviri 'fulfill such necessary functions as
shall be assigned to them by law.'

Cum prudens tum optabile est parva quidem sed plurima errata in legibus
nostris invenienda corrigere quippe quae nec vim nec voluntatem mutent,
easdem tamen deturpent.

It is both prudent and desirable to rectify the many minor errors in our
laws which alter neither their spirit nor intent, but which mar them
nonetheless.

I. Hac lege magistro araneario officium indicitur corrigendi errata
typographica, orthographica, grammatica, et similia contra sermonem
rectum admissa quae in praeteritis, instantibus, et futuris legibus
inveniantur, dum nec vis nec voluntas legis immutentur.

I. The webmaster is hereby assigned the duty of correcting
typographical, orthographic, grammatical, and similar errors existing
in past, present, and future legislation, insofar as these alter
neither the spirit nor the intent of the law.

A. Magister aranearius auxilio interpretis competentis Latini hoc
suscipiat.

A. The webmaster shall undertake this with the assistance of a
competent Latin translator.

B. Praetores de mutationibus (si quae sint) sub auctoritate magistri
araneari omnibus factis certiores fient, easque ita probabunt
nec vim nec voluntatem legis immutare.

B. The praetors shall be informed of any and all changes made under
the authority of the webmaster, and shall verify that none
alters the spirit or the intent of the law.

II. Hac lege magistratibus curandum statuitur ut omnes leges propositae
ab interprete perito Latino recognoscantur ut errata ulla in legibus
latis inventa prius corrigantur quam magister aranearius in cista
suffragiorum comprehendat. [Cista est pagina aranearia/telaris
nomina candidatorum et verba legum propositarum continens ut
suffragatores ea videant antequam suffragium ferant].

II. Magistrates are hereby required to have all proposed laws reviewed
by a competent Latin translator to ensure that any errors which may
occur in proposed laws are corrected before the webmaster may
include them in a cista for voting. [A cista is a webpage
containing the names of the candidates and the text of proposed
laws so that the voters may see them before voting.]

III. Magister aranearius, vel corrector peritus ab eodem designatus,
omnes leges propositas quoque recognoscet ad emendanda paragrapho
primo [I] supra dicta errata, et corriget quae opus sit ante quam
magister aranearius eas in cista suffragiorum ascribat.

III. The webmaster, or a competent proofreader designated by this
magistrate, shall also review all proposed laws for errors named in
Paragraph I above, and correct them as necessary before including
them in a cista for voting.

IV. Simul ac Comitia Populi Tributa hanc legem ratam faciant, ilico
eadem valebit.

IV. This law shall take effect immediately upon ratification by the
Comitia Populi Tributa.

--- End text of Lex Equitia de Corrigendis Legum Erratis ---



Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23424 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
Gaius Iulius Scaurus wrote:

> For the consules to accept the candidacy of Pompeia Cornelia
> Strabo for Praetor Suffectus is an insult to the Di Immortales,
> the state, and its citizens. I call upon them to rectify this
> gross error immediately.

Can you (or anyone) please point me to the law which says that the
consuls have the power to reject candidates out of hand?

I may be mistaken - I admit to not having memorised all applicable
legislation - but I didn't think they were able to do this. In fact
the idea has never even occured to me. If it *is* possible I think
that it should be changed, and soon, before anyone is able to abuse
it to keep out candidates they don't like the look of.

As for whether the lady in question is elected - well, it is up to
the electorate, and as you've pointed out everyone who wasn't around
at the time is well able to read back in the archives and see her
previous actions. The electorate can make wrong decisions if they
want to - that's democracy, right?

Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23425 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
remain in a fantasy in which the legal authority of the state is in
> the hands of someone whom I regard as a madwoman.


Ave Gaius Iulius Scarus;
do you realize what you have written above, I think, constitutes
macronational libel? Cornelia Pompeia Strabo is a nurse; you are
saying she is mentally unfit to do her job.
Please control yourself, you know both Persian and Arabic kindly
reread this:

the apophthegm of Abu 'Ali Sina (Avicenna):

Al- 'Arifu hashshun, bashshun, bassamun; wa keyfa la, was huwa
farhanu bi'l-hakki wa bi-kulli shey?


The gnostic, wise man, is gentle, courteous, smiling; and how should
it be otherwise, since he rejoices in the Truth and in all things.

bene vale in pace deorum
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23426 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: A Codex for Nova Roma
Salve Fusce,

What a great job you've done there, worthy of an excellent Aedilis !

You have my heartfelt thanks for bringing NR laws in touch with the people...

Optime Vale

C Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Candidate for Quaestor
www.members.aol.com/cornmoraviusl/welcome/index


In a message dated 13/05/04 19:52:14 GMT Daylight Time,
dom.con.fus@... writes:

> Ave
>
>
>
> I'm here to announce that, after some work (that is by no mean finished,
> mind you), I've put together a Codex of the laws of Nova Roma, in order to
> provide a tool for the cives (and who knows, for the magistrates too) who
> would like to have something more handy than the Tabularium to deal with the
> Laws of Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> As said, it is *not* finished. I'll keep working on it for a while, I'm
> sure. For instance, only a few laws have a comment so far, I've not yet put
> in place the senatorial and magisterial decrees and also I've to check a
> couple of overlapping laws in a couple of sections (Comitia and
> Magistrates). Also, there are some more things to keep in mind that I placed
> in the introduction, together with the guidelines used to put the codex
> together.
>
>
>
> Even considering that, I think it is already in a stage that allows it to be
> of some use for the cives and so, here it is:
>
>
>
> http://village.flashnet.it/~ua01823/Codex/
>
>
>
> I'll welcome comments, especially constructive ones, indications about which
> law or decree should not be there because abrogated (even if still in the
> Tabularium) or directions to missing ones.
>
>
>
> Hoping it will be considered useful,
>
>
>
> Vale Bene
>
>
>
> DCF
>
> PF Constantinia
>
> Aedilis Urbis
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23427 From: gnaeuscrassus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Fabia Livia"
<livia_lists@s...> wrote:
> Gaius Iulius Scaurus wrote:
>
> > For the consules to accept the candidacy of Pompeia Cornelia
> > Strabo for Praetor Suffectus is an insult to the Di Immortales,
> > the state, and its citizens. I call upon them to rectify this
> > gross error immediately.
>
> Can you (or anyone) please point me to the law which says that the
> consuls have the power to reject candidates out of hand?
>
> I may be mistaken - I admit to not having memorised all applicable
> legislation - but I didn't think they were able to do this. In
fact
> the idea has never even occured to me. If it *is* possible I think
> that it should be changed, and soon, before anyone is able to abuse
> it to keep out candidates they don't like the look of.
>
> As for whether the lady in question is elected - well, it is up to
> the electorate, and as you've pointed out everyone who wasn't
around
> at the time is well able to read back in the archives and see her
> previous actions. The electorate can make wrong decisions if they
> want to - that's democracy, right?
>
> Livia


Salve

I mean no insult by this but i find it childish that a you would
threaten to leave simple because someone you dont like is running for
an office and your worried she might win. And if she is like what you
say then she wont so why make such threats. Perhaps my opinion
doesn't matter because i am still waiting for a responce from the
censors but hey i just thought i'd give my thoughts.

Vale
Crassus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23428 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Endorsement of Caius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus as Quaestor
Salvete Quirites!

I hereby endorse Honorable Caius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus as
Quaestor! He has served me very well as my Chief Scribe. When he
asked me if I would give him my support my natural answer was yes.
This promise was given some time ago. Having seen him work for me
since January I must say that he is more than well qualified for the
position as Quaestor. Vote for Honorable Caius Moravius Laureatus
Armoricus!

Sometimes there will be a conflict as who to support in an election.
This election I have this, in itself nice, problem. In an earlier
election I supported Honorable Lucius Julius Sulla. I freely admit
that I still see him as very good citizen. I hope to be able to
support both these candidates in many elections in the future.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23429 From: lovelyone49 Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: A Movie Review
I love the original film 'Spartacus' so much better than the current
film. I did a movie review on the original film 'Spartacus.' You can
read my review at the following website;

http://www.storywrite.com/Poem/628419

Sincerely,
Delicia- My Roman Name
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23430 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Threats to Resign Citizenship (was [Nova-Roma] The Praetorian Elect
Salvete omnes ~

Once again, we have a Citizen saying 'If this happens I'll resign my
Citizenship'.
This has been a disturbing trend lately; it is unworthy of this List.

A threat to resign is unDemocratic. It is a declaration that you feel
your reasons may not be enough to sway people's decision, so you're
going to add a threat to it as well. In the case of Scaurus, who knows
that he is a valued resource and an esteemed leader within the Religio,
such a threat is particularly odious. It is unworthy of him, in my
opinion.

Don't like a Candidate or piece of Legislation? Then oppose it, give
your reasons & leave it at that. If the Law allows something and it
happens, then it happened in accordance with the Democratic will of the
People. Live with it, or organize an effort to rescind it. If it's an
Edict or Decree, then urge the Tribunes to Veto it; if they don't, then
perhaps you should re-examine your stance. That's the way things work,
that's our system.

Threatening to resign is somewhat immature: It is like a child quitting
because they don't like the rules. Well, tough: We're a Democracy, and
the rules of our Laws have been there for all to see, and everyone
agreed to them when they applied for Citizenship. Our Constitution
even allows for the Laws, the Rules, to be changed; which makes such
threats even more immature. Don't like the system? Change it!

Certainly it is acceptable to resign one's Citizenship on moral grounds
and announce one's decision to do so and why, but threatening to resign
is nothing less than attempted blackmail. The moment we succumb to one
bit of such blackmail we will never see the end of it: Then every
important person or bloc of Citizens can make similar threats. This is
not how Democracy is supposed to work!

Please, people: Debate and vote based on the merits of a candidate or
piece of legislation, not on any person's threat to resign.

Valete
~ Troianus

On Monday, May 17, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Gregory Rose wrote:

> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.

[several paragraphs removed for brevity]

> Should the Comitia Centuriata choose such a person for any position of
> trust, I shall not remain a citizen, for Nova Roma would have been
> shown
> to be a empty shell unworthy for reconstruction of the Religio Romana,
> unworthy of the pax Deorum, and bereft of any of the moral qualities
> which the Roman Republic embodied.
>
> Since Nova Roma is increasingly the playground of those who would
> reshape it in accordance with their modern fantasies, I am not prepared
> to remain in a fantasy in which the legal authority of the state is in
> the hands of someone whom I regard as a madwoman. I make no threat,
> only a prediction: this candidacy is a dagger thrust toward the heart
> of
> the Republic. I would be derelict in my duty to Quirinus Pater if I
> did
> not point this danger out.
>
> Valete.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
> Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23431 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Salvete Citizens of Rome

> Do I think Noricus is doing a “good job” as Praetor? No, I think he is
> being irresponsible, but I do not know the whole reason for his absence. If
> there is a logical reason, then he may have my confidence again. Would I vote
> for him for Consul? At this point, no. However, he IS a Praetor - a
> magistrate with Imperium -, and we are a people of laws. To change these laws
> without much thought is a grave injustice to our Republic.
>
>
While the Tribune raises several good points, I have to ask, what are doing
to find Praetor Noricus?

His home phone is on file. Has a Censor or scribe called? Has snail mail
been dispatched to his address, with the hope it will be forwarded to his new
location? Are there any Roman citizens in or near his hometown? One that can
be sent to his address? In short have we really tried to find him? We are
supposed to be a government. We certainly are not acting as one.
Tribune Modius raises another interesting question. Are Curule Magistrates
mandated to serve? Is any magistrate mandated? And what does "serve" exactly
mean? The people elect magistrates with expectations of service, if the
magistrate fails, what exactly happens?
Can the people sue? I think it is reasonable for a magistrate to let the
Senate know where they will be and how to to best get in touch with them if there
is an emergency in Rome.
In old Rome, a Senator could not travel outside Italia without the Senate's
permission.
Earlier this year the Tribunate was paralyzed, because one Tribune went on
vacation without telling fellow members, where he would be and how to get a hold
of him.
In the old days of NR when a Curule Magistrate would go on vacation or be out
of internet contact he let his fellow members know where he could be found,
or his cell phone number so he could be in contact in case of emergency.
After all it is just common sense. Yet NR seems to lacking even common sense
these days.
We are becoming more convoluted on a daily basis.
So again I ask our government...What exactly are we doing to find Praetor
Noricus?

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23432 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Pompeia For Praetor !!!!
Salvete Omnes,

It is with great pleasure that I come before you today to officialy support
Pompeia Cornelia in the race for the praetorship.

She has already been holding this position and I know that her passion for
justice and fair treatment will bring yet another fine element to the
praetorship.

She has been involved in the workings of NR for as far as I can remember
(more than three and a half year since I became a citizen) and her dedication to
offer equal treatment and equal chances to all is exemplary. I trust her to
bring to the ML the spirit of civility that it sometimes lacks.

As a praetor she will also become a senator and be at the forefront of
decision making in Nova Roma. Her words have spoken for her : Passion, belief in all
the qualities of Nova Roma, dedication to its laws and culture. I am sure she
will make a fine addition to our august body !

Quirites, Vote Pompeia !

C Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Candidate for Quaestor
www.members.aol.com/cornmoraviusl/welcome/index


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23433 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Salvete Quirites, et salve Quinte Fabi,

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

> I have to ask, what are doing to find Praetor Noricus?

Perhaps you missed my tabulation of our efforts when I announced that he
was missing. In any case...

> Has a Censor or scribe called?

Yes.

> Has snail mail been dispatched to his address,

Yes.

> Are there any Roman citizens in or near his hometown?

Not close enough to visit, no.

> In short have we really tried to find him?

Yes.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23434 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Tribune C. Modius
Athanasius, and to all the Tribunes, and to all his
fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

I hope you don't mind me offering some comments on
your veto from a legal point of view, because I think
it needs a little clarification. The main point of
confusion is that it seems in fact to be two vetoes.

The first is a veto against the part of the Consul's
edict in which he summons the comitia to elect a new
praetor:

> I view a vote to declare a vacancy, and a
> simultaneous vote to elect a candidate (if the lex
> goes through) as a violation of the Constitution.
> You cannot hold an election unless there is a
> vacancy. At this point there is not yet a vacancy.

From a legal point of view one could argue either way
on this point, though I'm inclined to agree that your
view is the more logically sound: it is necessary to
wait until the vacancy exists before voting to fill
it. Of course, it would not, as far as I can see, be
necessary to wait until the vacancy exists before
announcing the election - the Consuls could, I think,
call the comitia to vote on the removal of the Praetor
on the date they have announced, and simultaneously
call the comitia for a later date (maybe only a day or
two after the close of the first vote) to fill the
vacancy. Obviously if the vacancy were not to open,
the second meeting of the assembly could simply be
cancelled.

Your second veto is against the part of the edict
which proposes a vote on the removal of the Praetor:

> Additionally, I know of no Lex that requires a
> specific, and quantifiable, level of activity from a
> magistrate. We all expect our magistrates to
> perform their duties, but is it mandated?

The answer to your question is 'no', but the question
is not really relevant. The constitution gives the
assembly the legal power to depose a praetor who it
considers guilty of 'dereliction of duty'. In the
absence of any more precise definition of dereliction
of duty, it is up to the assembly to decide whether
the Praetor is indeed derelict in his duties or not.
The absence of a legal definition does not affect the
matter.

> Additionally, Noricus has paid his taxes. He is an
> Assidui. If he had the intention of walking away
> from Nova Roma then I suspect he would have saved
> his money.

This may be a good reason why we ought to vote 'no',
but it is not a good legal basis for a veto of the
vote itself. You have, of course, the power to stop
the people from voting on an issue simply because you
do not want them to vote 'yes', but it is not a
reasonable or responsible use of your power of veto.

> There is another issue that should be addressed.
> It is the nature of Imperium. As a Praetor, Noricus
> is invested with Imperium by the Comitia Curiata.
> It is my belief that only the Comitia Curiata can
> remove this Imperium.

Your suggestion that the comitia curiata has exclusive
power to remove a magistrate would make a good deal of
sense were it not for the fact that the constitution
says utterly unequivocally that a magistrate may be
deposed by whatever assembly elected him. Perhaps the
constitution ought not to say that, but say it it
does, so your point about the comitia curiata is, I'm
afraid, not a good legal basis for a veto.

> ... Simply missing since March
> 9th, is not sufficient grounds to proclaim a Praetor
> derelict of duty. Removing a magistrates Imperium
> and declaring them derelict of duty is a severe
> action, and one that should not be taken lightly.

Again, these are reasons why we ought to vote 'no',
but they are not reasons for us to be denied the
chance to vote at all. Voting on an issue is not
taking it lightly, but rather taking it very seriously
indeed. And I must say again that whether or not the
Praetor is derelict in his duties in your opinion has
no bearing on whether or not the people ought to be
permitted to decide for themselves.

> Do I think Noricus is doing a “good job” as
> Praetor? No, I think he is being irresponsible, but
> I do not know the whole reason for his absence. If
> there is a logical reason, then he may have my
> confidence again. Would I vote for him for Consul?
> At this point, no. However, he IS a Praetor - a
> magistrate with Imperium -, and we are a people of
> laws. To change these laws without much thought is
> a grave injustice to our Republic.

With the greatest respect, I must point out that the
calling of a vote on the removal of the Praetor in the
centuriate assembly in now way constitutes a change to
the laws you mention. On the contrary, your veto is in
effect a change to the laws, since it seeks to
overrule the constitutional power of the centuriate
assembly to vote on the removal of a praetor.

I say again that the fact that your second veto is
legally groundless doesn't make it any the less
effective, for a tribunician veto is a tribunician
veto and there's not a lot we can do about it.
However, I would urge you to consider that the
constitutional role and mandate of the tribunes is to
veto things which are contrary to the laws, not to
veto things which are entirely legal, and to veto a
vote against which there is no legal objection simply
because you do not wish the vote to go a certain way
is a serious abuse of your tribunician potestas. I
also urge your colleagues, with this in mind, to
oppose your attempt to veto the vote on the removal of
the Praetor.

Over and above all this, I urge you still more
strongly to re-issue your veto as two separate vetoes,
one of the election, the other of the vote on the
removal of the Praetor, so that your colleagues can
decide their position on each issue separately.





____________________________________________________________
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your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23435 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Salve Quirites!

For those who have missed the message below:

At 14.04 +0200 04-05-09, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus wrote:
>Salvete Quirites!
>
>I have since some time been searching for Illustris Gnaeus Octavius
>Noricus. I share the point of view of many that he is not the kind of
>person who disappears without leaving a message. He was my Accensus
>last year and he did an excellent job. I also had the pleasure to
>meet him in person during the Nova Roman Rally in Bologna last summer
>and he made the same favourable impression there.
>
>I have written to a lot of people in Germania and they in their turn
>have searched for him. I have phoned him directly and now I have
>found a citizen that is willing to do more extensive search for him.
>Let us see what the coming days will yield.
>
>I must admit that I am very worried, what has happened to our
>co-citizen and dear friend? I will include Noricus in my prayers and
>I ask You all to do the same!
>--
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Censor, Consularis et Senator

Sadly enough this search has not given anything yet. One or two more
things will be tried, then I will report to the Consuls either that I
have found him or that I had to give up as a Censor. As a privatus I
will continue to search for him for very long time. Please pray for
him!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23436 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Pompeia For Praetor !!!!
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> It is with great pleasure that I come before you today to officialy
support
> Pompeia Cornelia in the race for the praetorship.

There is no race for the praetorship, that was put on hold by the
Tribune's veto. He also made a number of other points about whether
such a race is necessary, so let's see what develops before endorsing
candidates in a non-race.

Vale,

Palladius

-----------
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23437 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
In a message dated 5/17/04 12:32:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
christer.edling@... writes:

> I have phoned him directly and now I have
> >found a citizen that is willing to do more extensive search for him.
> >Let us see what the coming days will yield.
>

Good. We will have an answer then. Any idea when your informant will have
an idea about what happened? Can he contact Noricus' family? How about his
Gens members? Any help there?

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23438 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
Salve!

>In a message dated 5/17/04 12:32:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>christer.edling@... writes:
>
>> I have phoned him directly and now I have
>> >found a citizen that is willing to do more extensive search for him.
>> >Let us see what the coming days will yield.
>>
>
>Good. We will have an answer then. Any idea when your informant will have
>an idea about what happened?

I have been given a report each week or more. Nothing until now. We
are now waiting for an answer to a postcard.

>Can he contact Noricus' family?

No, sadly enough I know of no one with any contact with his family.
Any such information would be of great value.

>How about his
>Gens members?

No. Not from his colleague, Quaestor or Scribae.

>Any help there?

I will not leave any stones unturned.

>Fabius

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23439 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Ave Censors and SPQR!
In a message dated 5/17/04 1:34:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
christer.edling@... writes:

> I will not leave any stones unturned.
>

Thank you for your diligence, Censor Fabius.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23440 From: L. Didius Geminus Sceptius Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salve,

I must say that as former Tribune I see the reasoning quite correct.
Although Tribunus Plebis Modius Athanasius have not specifically
said which article or articles of the Constitutio are violated by
the Consul's act calling the Comitia, is quite clear that the right
invoked is explained too correctly. The Comitia Centuriata as in
III.B of the Constitutio is the back of his reasoning.

I do support the reasoning of Tribunus Plebis Modius Athanasius and
therefore I state publicily my mistake supporting a candidate being
no vacancy for her at this time. However, I still believe that maybe
she can hold that office in a future, and prove since now that she
can deserve the right of being elected for it.

I gladly see that our current Tribune has been able to find a gap
that could be solved properly. I just can congratulate him. On the
other hand, till Noricus finishes his term or declare his will of
leaving the office before, he is the current Praetor.

I suggest then the Consul and the Tribunes with all the Magistrates
to think in a solution for this affaire, though the path pointed out
by Modius Athanasius is quite clear.


vale bene in pace deorum,

L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
PROPRAETOR·HISPANIAE

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Ex Officio
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dixit
>
> As Tribunus Plebis I exercise my right of intercessio against the
convening of the Comitia Centuriata, as presented by Consul Gnaeus
Equitius Marinus. This is done out of no disrespect or disdain for
Consul Marinus, who is an excellent magistrate and citizen. The
intercessio is invoked because I believe the agenda of the Comitia
Centuriata to be unconstitutional, which I hope to illustrate below.
>
> The agenda of the Comitia Centuriata is requesting the citizens of
Nova Roma to declare and pass judgement on a curule magistrate.
Essentially, the proposed lex that will strip the Praetorship from
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus is a judgement of dereliction of duty.
Citizens are expected to vote to remove Noricus, thus causing an
official vacancy, while simultaneously voting to elect his
successor.
>
> I view a vote to declare a vacancy, and a simultaneous vote to
elect a candidate (if the lex goes through) as a violation of the
Constitution. You cannot hold an election unless there is a
vacancy. At this point there is not yet a vacancy.
>
> Additionally, I know of no Lex that requires a specific, and
quantifiable, level of activity from a magistrate. We all expect
our magistrates to perform their duties, but is it mandated?
>
> Additionally, Noricus has paid his taxes. He is an Assidui. If
he had the intention of walking away from Nova Roma then I suspect
he would have saved his money.
>
> There is another issue that should be addressed. It is the
nature of Imperium. As a Praetor, Noricus is invested with Imperium
by the Comitia Curiata. It is my belief that only the Comitia
Curiata can remove this Imperium. Simply missing since March 9th,
is not sufficient grounds to proclaim a Praetor derelict of duty.
Removing a magistrates Imperium and declaring them derelict of duty
is a severe action, and one that should not be taken lightly.
>
> Do I think Noricus is doing a “good job” as Praetor? No, I
think he is being irresponsible, but I do not know the whole reason
for his absence. If there is a logical reason, then he may have my
confidence again. Would I vote for him for Consul? At this point,
no. However, he IS a Praetor - a magistrate with Imperium -, and we
are a people of laws. To change these laws without much thought is
a grave injustice to our Republic.
>
> In closing, I again state that I, Gaius Modius Athanasius, hereby
pronounce intercessio against the convening of the Comitia
Centuriata by Consul G. Equitius Marinus on the grounds mentioned
above.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23441 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Salvete Quirites;
I have been a citizen for a year now but there are still things I am
finding out about NR politics.

The main one right now is that if Pompeia Cornelia Strabo is elected
Praetor and then Senator, the Boni will be outnumbered in the Senate.

So read the ML, and view our elections, forthcoming or not with this
political subtext in mind.

bene vale in pace deorum
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23442 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Praetors; in the Interim; A Helpful Suggestion
Salvete;
while this situation plays itself out may I respectfully suggest to
the Praetor that we have a rolling monthly posting of the List
Guidelines with a reference to Lex Calumnia as well as a definition
of Libel, so as as to be a helpful reminder to be more temperate in
our choice of words! Believe me there are plenty left; you know I am
never at a loss;-)
bene vale
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23443 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Funny,

Two years ago some people took Strabo's election as "proof" that the
Cornelian "Mafia Family" was giving the Boni too much power.

Drusus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites;
> I have been a citizen for a year now but there are still things I am
> finding out about NR politics.
>
> The main one right now is that if Pompeia Cornelia Strabo is elected
> Praetor and then Senator, the Boni will be outnumbered in the Senate.
>
> So read the ML, and view our elections, forthcoming or not with this
> political subtext in mind.
>
> bene vale in pace deorum
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23444 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Endorsement for Praetor
Avete Pompeia Cornelia, Gaius Popillius et Omnes,

With reflection over the past couple of days I have decided that I should publicly endorse a candidate between these two individuals. Both of them have served me well when I was consul. Both of them are close friends, friends that I trust and vented too and likewise heard their complaints. Both individuals are imperfect, both have resigned their positions once, though Laenas reconsidered and completed his term in office. I have had strong attachments to each individual. This was a decision that I pondered on and I came to the conclusion that the best candidate is Gaius Popillius Laenas.

I have come to this conclusion after dwelling on the past and character of each individual and what that individual not only offers to the position of Praetor but what that person offers to the Senate. In this case, the experience of Gaius Popillius Laenas is the obvious choice. Here is a man who has a background in accounting. Here is a man who already has detailed experience in the tax collection of Nova Roma, who was prompt in giving information to myself and my colleague at the time M. Octavius Germanicus. Who transferred the money from paypal to our bank at our request. Who presented a report that was available to the Senate. And, please keep in mind that this was the very first time that Nova Roma collected Taxes. Without him as the focal point, the collection process could have been much worse. I believe that his knowledge, his experience and his character will be an asset to Nova Roma, an asset to the Senate and an asset to you, the People. I urge you to consider voting for this man.

As with all endorsement, someone comes ahead and someone does not....but unlike most endorsements I do have some comments for my gens mate, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo. Po, you know I love you. You know I have trusted you in the past. However in recent days and months you have violated my trust and worse you lied to me. Since you resigned from the Praetorship you have gone down a slippery slope and I have tried to be there for you, as much as I could be. Remember when you imploded on the ML and Gaius Iulius wanted to sue you, you told me that if it reached that point you would leave NR...and I fought my damnedest to prevent his petition from reaching a trial....Don't you remember our late nite chats when I discussed what I was doing to help resolve your case...who I was emailing and in the end you did not have to stand trial. I have never asked you to give me any thanks for that...I felt it was my duty as your paterfamilias to do whatever I could to try to help you. How do you repay me? By divulging confidential information? Information that you told me was private between you and I. So, I have to ask, what else have you disclosed? Not that it matters much anymore. I just know that I cannot hold you in the esteem that I once did. For that I am disappointed. But, it is for this reason that I take this action and not endorse a Cornelian running for public office.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23445 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete Quirites,

I am pursuing a private dialogue with the Tribune in the hope of finding
a way to proceed with our vote. Please be patient and allow us a few
days to work this out.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23446 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Absence
Avete Omnes,

Beginning tomorrow I will be unavailable for approximately 8 weeks.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23447 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: the power & the election
In a message dated 5/17/04 3:53:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:

> The main one right now is that if Pompeia Cornelia Strabo is elected
> Praetor and then Senator, the Boni will be outnumbered in the Senate.
>

Salve.

The Boni faction is outnumbered in the Senate right now. So I'm baffled by
your reference.
Noricus does not lose his seat, since the Senate's internal procedures are
different.
Besides Po was once a Senator, and looked how well that turned out.
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23448 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: E-Mail Address / Subject
Ladies and Gentlemen;

Due to the increasing amount of SPAM traffic, on my various addresses,
it is no longer posible for me to try to "weasel out" from nicknames, NR
names, odd topics, and other casual references just who it is that is
trying to contact me.

Since I get nearly 150 E-Mails each day which are SPAM, it is possible
that I may miss an important message from one of you, or that some idiot
(or idiots) will fill my limited mailbox with garbage.

In order to prevent that, perhaps you might want to use some sort of
mutually recognizable capitol letter code in the subject line, or rely
on the fact, that I will remember your name. One word subject lines or
(No Subject) almost always are deleted, if I do not recognize the name.

If you cannot get me due to my mailbox being full then wait a while and
try agan, I normally clear such blockages within a 24 hour period. I am
often on the road to and from reenactments (35-40 per season) so I am
not always here. Your messages are valuable to me, SPAM is NOT!!!!!!!
Please help me to distinguish between your very desirable
correspondence, and the @#$%#@&*%$(*)%$##!! SPAM!!!!!!

My Thanks;

Jim Mathews, Ian McKay, Ryan McKay, Brian McKay, and Marcus
Minucius-Tiberius Audens


Wishing you all the best, with Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23449 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
G. Iulius Scaurus Gaiae Fabiae Liviae salutem dicit.

Salve, Gaia Fabia

>>For the consules to accept the candidacy of Pompeia Cornelia
>>Strabo for Praetor Suffectus is an insult to the Di Immortales,
>>the state, and its citizens. I call upon them to rectify this
>>gross error immediately.
>>
>>
>
>Can you (or anyone) please point me to the law which says that the
>consuls have the power to reject candidates out of hand?
>
>I may be mistaken - I admit to not having memorised all applicable
>legislation - but I didn't think they were able to do this. In fact
>the idea has never even occured to me. If it *is* possible I think
>that it should be changed, and soon, before anyone is able to abuse
>it to keep out candidates they don't like the look of.
>

The consuls of historical Rome could. Sometimes in moments of idealism
I forget how very little Nova Roma follows the mos maiorum or cares to.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23450 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

It is now patently obvious to me that some people cannot tell the
difference between a threat and a statement of a condition under which
Nova Roma would no longer be endurable for me as a matter of principle.

I believe that someone publicly calumnying the founders of this
organisation is the moral equivalent of a Roman calumnying the maiores.
If someone can do that and still become a curule magistrate, then Nova
Roma is so far from historical Rome as tobe utterly without interest to
me. If people refuse to take the time and search the archives and rad
what was actually said, it is not my fault. Those who have will
understand why I feel this way about it.

I cannot begin to express how deeply offended I am by someone who
routinely proclaims herself to be a Christian using the Magna Mater
Project as a campaign prop and advertisement. It is as if what those of
us who practice the Religio Romana in our daily lives regard as sacred,
is used as window dressing for a political game. That alone is enough
to make me reconsider what Nova Roma is about.

In the last six months I have seen the purpose of Nova Roma turned on
its head by people who know less about historical Rome than the average
American grammar school student (which, I assure you, is precious close
to nothing). This is not about personalities or disliking someone.
This is about the culminating event in a process which makes me wonder
whether what I came to Nova Roma to do resembles to any degree what most
others have come here to do. Life is too short to make a career of
pissing in the wind. If what I want NR to be is not what the majority
of its citizens want, then I should be the one to leave.

I was not making a political gesture. I was indicating that to my mind
things have gone so completely awry in Nova Roma that an event could
realistically take place which would compel me as a matter of conscience
to leave a place I dearly love. That is as far from a threat as it is
possible to be.

If Pompeia Cornelia wishes to macronationally sue me for what I have
said, I give the censores my permission to release my macronational
information to her attorney. And then we'll wait for the judge to have
a good laugh and sanction the attorney for a frivolous lawsuit. Twenty
minutes of a judge reading the archives of this list would make such a
suit an absurdity. That I should be reminded I have libelled someone
who has made a career of libelling the founders of Nova Roma is simply
one more sign that we have far too many modern attorneys and far too few
Romans.

Those who think I was making a threat cannot recognise a cry from the
heart that something I hold precious is on the verge of its destruction.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23451 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Endorsement for Praetor
---P. Cornelia Strabo L. Corneli Sullae S.P.D.

My comments below, seeing as you are following the hyperconservative
bandwagon of behaviours as of late, 'joining in the fun' as it were...


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Pompeia Cornelia, Gaius Popillius et Omnes,
>
> With reflection over the past couple of days I have decided that I
should publicly endorse a candidate between these two individuals.
Both of them have served me well when I was consul. Both of them are
close friends, friends that I trust and vented too and likewise heard
their complaints. Both individuals are imperfect, both have resigned
their positions once, though Laenas reconsidered and completed his
term in office. I have had strong attachments to each individual.
This was a decision that I pondered on and I came to the conclusion
that the best candidate is Gaius Popillius Laenas.

Pompeia: I disregard the 'strong' attachent as a phoney superficial
courtesy, but you may endorse whomever you feel is best. I have never
denied you, or anyone that.
>
> I have come to this conclusion after dwelling on the past and
character of each individual and what that individual not only offers
to the position of Praetor but what that person offers to the Senate.
In this case, the experience of Gaius Popillius Laenas is the obvious
choice. Here is a man who has a background in accounting. Here is a
man who already has detailed experience in the tax collection of Nova
Roma, who was prompt in giving information to myself and my colleague
at the time M. Octavius Germanicus. Who transferred the money from
paypal to our bank at our request. Who presented a report that was
available to the Senate. And, please keep in mind that this was the
very first time that Nova Roma collected Taxes. Without him as the
focal point, the collection process could have been much worse. I
believe that his knowledge, his experience and his character will be
an asset to Nova Roma, an asset to the Senate and an asset to you, the
People. I urge you to consider voting for this man.


>
> As with all endorsement, someone comes ahead and someone does
not....but unlike most endorsements I do have some comments for my
gens mate, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo. Po, you know I love you. You
know I have trusted you in the past. However in recent days and
months you have violated my trust and worse you lied to me. Since you
resigned from the Praetorship you have gone down a slippery slope and
I have tried to be there for you, as much as I could be. Remember
when you imploded on the ML and Gaius Iulius wanted to sue you, you
told me that if it reached that point you would leave NR...and I
fought my damnedest to prevent his petition from reaching a
trial....Don't you remember our late nite chats when I discussed what
I was doing to help resolve your case...who I was emailing and in the
end you did not have to stand trial. I have never asked you to give
me any thanks for that...I felt it was my duty as your paterfamilias
to do whatever I could to try to help you. How do you repay me? By
divulging confidential information? Information that you told me was
private between you and I. So, I have to ask, what else have you
disclosed? Not that it matters much anymore. I just know that I
cannot hold you in the esteem that I once did. For that I am
disappointed. But, it is for this reason that I take this action and
not endorse a Cornelian running for public office.

Pater: Love is a word that apparently we differ on greatly. If you
had so much darned 'love' for me, you would endorse us both on the
basis of qualification and leave the exaggerated character butchery
omitted. Essentially, my pater, from the persons you endorse and the
actions you tacitly condone of certain individuals, I do not think you
are in a position to deem me as being on a 'slippery slope' (and I do
not speak of poor Laenus here, probably the only one of you who has
been a 'gentleman' in this quasicampaign)

Let me see, where this infestation began. You and I had a phone
conversation in the summer of 2003 about my 'trial' and a relayed some
information to the Senate you apparently asked me not to say anything
about. I do not recall you asking me not to say anything, it seemed
like common information. I apologize, but I truly think this person
should be honest with the senate, given the magistracy held. As for
now, such information is as much a secret as the Pope being Catholic,
except for those who are maybe not as intuned to certain situations as
others.

I do remember lately quoting from a private memo, also, in which I did
not reveal the author, but said that I was willing to reveal it as
evidence to the Praetors under their oath as evidence if my statements
were contested by the poster. I assigned no author to this name, but
I cannot allow people to believe what is untrue to their potential
detriment. If you wish to enlighten yourself as to what confidential
information you are referring to, go ahead. These are the only
circumstances I think where I shared anything...once was an accident,
and the other was a quote with no name.

Thank you so much for your help in my trial, I do appreciate that, but
if you read the Lex Salicia, even back then (there are some changes I
believe) the trial was so badly done from the petitoner's standpoint,
my character was assassinated in the Back Alley by a magistrate who
knew the dealings of the trial in front of potential jurors, and the
Tribunes didn't have a concensus on this, so I could have called
Provacatio under those circumstances of misconduct by a magistrate,
and I discussed this with you. Again thank you, but an agreement
outside court was the only option, as the trial was so badly botched.
I have the petition.

Of all the AIM conversations, letters, et al. we had about private
stuff, stayed private, and shall stay so. Of all the things I held in
confidence as Praetor, all the times I tried to bandy between you and
Octavius and keep myself as neutral as possible, you are 'welcome'

For the hours I spend trying to come up with a Gens Reform
Package...going to this group, then that group, then you, then him,
basing it on historical models and the Religio to the best of my
ability, so we could stay together as a gens if we so chose, you are
'welcome'

As far as my devotion to you, you have very little to complain about,
I'm afraid.

But I see that you have a very superficial and political view of love.
You have your "buds" around you and so you are tough. I am a
politically useless Cornelia I guess. And wow, a few people ask me to
run for Praetor and everyone of you blow gaskets....as you wish...

Pater....you are a nonpractitioner...an 'unbeliever'...'why' are you
in the Boni? What is in it for you? Are you sure that 'respect' for
the religio is enough? I don't hang around people who generally don't
have alot of use for me, or want to use me as some type of
scapegoat...that is your choice, but it is not mine.

Based on what you have written, and your obvious attitude toward me,
based on very little that you can scrounge up to date, I do not think
I wish to be in your gens anymore. I don't think I want to talk to
you about gens covenants, those of which I would file with the Censors
or Collegium in promise to uphold as a familia. I have done the best
I can for you, and I cannot offer you anymore. But I will not pretend
that people are my friends when they would pull rugs from under
persons feet whenever it is convenient. Nor will I remain silent and
allow it to happen to other people. I will not be the filias of a
Paterfamilias who condones such.

I have written the Censores. I shall not remain your filias any
longer. There is no point.

Be well, and may Yahweh keep you safe during your time off, I do mean
that. May the intercessions of Apollo heal you. In the meantime, we
are through in NR.

Pompeia
>
> Most Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23452 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Nova Roma never ceases to amaze!
Actually, being referred to as one of "The Usual Suspects" is kinda
fun. Especially if I get to be Keyser Soze. I aways wanted to be a
murderous Hungarian.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
<sceptia@y...> wrote:
> Salve, Iunius Silanus
>
> May I ask a little clarification on the word "suspects"? I do
believe it can
> be read as an irony or even a private joke...
<clippage>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23453 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Endorsement for Praetor
L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> With reflection over the past couple of days I have decided that I
> should publicly endorse a candidate between these two individuals.
> Both of them have served me well when I was consul. Both of them are
> close friends,

...and then he goes on to show us how he treats his "close friends".

No surprise, really. Those of us who have known this scoundrel for
years expect no better.

> You know I have trusted you in the past. However in recent days and
> months you have violated my trust and worse you lied to me.

Shocker! The master of lies and violations of trust is offended when
someone turns the tables on him.

> Remember when you imploded on the ML and Gaius Iulius wanted to sue you,
> you told me that if it reached that point you would leave NR...and I
> fought my damnedest to prevent his petition from reaching a trial....

I was one of the participants in that matter. I was named as an alleged
victim, yet I insisted that all charges involving me be dropped.
Additionally, as Censor, I received all of those communications due to
my office.

Citizens, I assure you that the village idiot Lucius Cornelius Sulla had
nothing whatsoever to do with that petition having not reached a trial.
His opinion does not matter in the slightest with any of the magistrates
or citizens that were involved. No, he's simply trying to take credit
for someone else's work in having neutralized that issue.

> Don't you remember our late nite chats when I discussed what I was
> doing to help resolve your case...who I was emailing and in the end
> you did not have to stand trial.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc, thou dullard? Will you next take credit
for causing the sun to rise?


--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
moderation is for monks. - Heinlein
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23454 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
L C Sardonicus to Gaius Popillius Laenas, greetings.

In my opinion, even in the Eagle article you say nothing more
than, "I quit. People convinced me I was wrong to quit, so I came
back." It still doesn't address the question at hand. 'If you were
to find yourself in the same circumstances as those which caused you
to resign last time, what would you do differently and what the
same?' Your assertion that you see things differently now is
overshadowed by the fact that you deny resigning due to an "off in a
huff" waiting period that only exists to convenience people who tend
to go off in a huff.

At least I got your name right this time.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas"
<ksterne@b...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Sardonicus"
<sardonicus_@h...>
> wrote:
> I can't make any comment on the article in the
> > Eagle as the link was invalid and I'm not sure I have access to
> the
> > Eagle archives.
> >
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> If you go here:
>
> http://livinghistoryengineer.com/roman/eagle/index.htm
>
> and follow the link to the March issue, then to "download or view
> PDF of March issue", and finally scroll to the last page, your
> should find the piece.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23455 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: The Praetorian Election
L C Sardonicus to Gnaeus Crassus, greetings.

You said, "I mean no insult by this but i find it childish that a
you would threaten to leave simple because someone you dont like is
running for an office and your worried she might win."

Who threatened to leave?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gnaeuscrassus"
<gnaeuscrassus@y...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Fabia Livia"
> <livia_lists@s...> wrote:
> > Gaius Iulius Scaurus wrote:
> >
> > > For the consules to accept the candidacy of Pompeia Cornelia
> > > Strabo for Praetor Suffectus is an insult to the Di Immortales,
> > > the state, and its citizens. I call upon them to rectify this
> > > gross error immediately.
> >
> > Can you (or anyone) please point me to the law which says that
the
> > consuls have the power to reject candidates out of hand?
> >
> > I may be mistaken - I admit to not having memorised all
applicable
> > legislation - but I didn't think they were able to do this. In
> fact
> > the idea has never even occured to me. If it *is* possible I
think
> > that it should be changed, and soon, before anyone is able to
abuse
> > it to keep out candidates they don't like the look of.
> >
> > As for whether the lady in question is elected - well, it is up
to
> > the electorate, and as you've pointed out everyone who wasn't
> around
> > at the time is well able to read back in the archives and see
her
> > previous actions. The electorate can make wrong decisions if
they
> > want to - that's democracy, right?
> >
> > Livia
>
>
> Salve
>
> I mean no insult by this but i find it childish that a you would
> threaten to leave simple because someone you dont like is running
for
> an office and your worried she might win. And if she is like what
you
> say then she wont so why make such threats. Perhaps my opinion
> doesn't matter because i am still waiting for a responce from the
> censors but hey i just thought i'd give my thoughts.
>
> Vale
> Crassus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23456 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
I categorically deny being part of a Cornelian "Mafia Family." I
prefer the term Borgata.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> Funny,
>
> Two years ago some people took Strabo's election as "proof" that
the
> Cornelian "Mafia Family" was giving the Boni too much power.
>
> Drusus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera"
<rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites;
> > I have been a citizen for a year now but there are still things
I am
> > finding out about NR politics.
> >
> > The main one right now is that if Pompeia Cornelia Strabo is
elected
> > Praetor and then Senator, the Boni will be outnumbered in the
Senate.
> >
> > So read the ML, and view our elections, forthcoming or not with
this
> > political subtext in mind.
> >
> > bene vale in pace deorum
> > Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23457 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2004-05-17
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: power & the election
Or you could say " We are Cornelia, Resistance is Futile!"

GnCL


On May 17, 2004, at 10:24 PM, Mr Sardonicus wrote:

I categorically deny being part of a Cornelian "Mafia Family."  I
prefer the term Borgata.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> Funny,
>
> Two years ago some people took Strabo's election as "proof" that
the
> Cornelian "Mafia Family" was giving the Boni too much power.
>
> Drusus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera"
<rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites;
> >  I have been a citizen for a year now but there are still things
I am
> > finding out about NR politics.
> >
> > The main one right now is that if Pompeia Cornelia Strabo is
elected
> > Praetor and then Senator, the Boni will be outnumbered in the
Senate.
> >
> >  So read the ML, and view our elections, forthcoming or not with
this
> > political subtext in mind.
> >
> >    bene vale in pace deorum
> >  Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23458 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: And what about the other tribunes?
Ave Omnes



About the use of the Intercessio, in this case, I get to (mostly, I hope
I'll have the time today to write about it) agree with Cordus (finally!).



Just a quick question: following the Lex Labiena de Intercessione:



"III. The issuance of intercessio shall place the item or action on hold,
preventing it from being in any way effective, for 72 hours from the time at
which the intercessio is announced.



IV. During this 72 hour period, other tribuni plebis may officially announce
their agreement or disagreement with the particular use of intercessio. "



So



Franciscus Apulus Caesar

Lucius Arminius Faustus

Julilla Sempronia Magna

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



Do you actually agree or disagree with that use of intercessio? That would
be interesting to know.



Vale



DCF



PF Constantinia

Aedilis Urbis

Curator of the <http://village.flashnet.it/~ua01823/Codex/> Codex Juris
Novae Romae Constantini





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23459 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salve L. Didius Geminus Sceptius,

<I must say that as former Tribune I see the reasoning quite correct.

As a former Tribune I agree. I do not see any law which says that after two months of being out of
touch, a magistrate can be removed from his office. And again, without a vacant office, no
election can take place.

I realize that we need an active Praetor quickly, but removing Noricus when he is more than likely
temporarily occupied by an urgent situation and conducting an unconstitutional election is not the
answer.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23460 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: ante diem XV Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem XV Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem XIV Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23461 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Ave Omnes

Scrive Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@...>:
> As a former Tribune I agree. I do not see any law which says that after two
> months of being out of
> touch, a magistrate can be removed from his office.

Umm.. the law of common sense that says that if someone is out of touch for 2
out of 5 months already and for a period that already covers 1/6 of the whole
term, doesn't answer his phone, apparently is not to be found at home, maybe
the office should be considered vacant?

Truth to be told, a law expressely saying when an office should be considered
officially vacant would be useful, but I can't believe that law wouldn't
consider 69 days (out of 138) of uninterrupted inactivity by a magistrate or an
objective repeated failure to attend its duty (which could be said for others,
besides Noricus, actually) as sound reasons, both sufficient by themselves, to
declare the vacancy.

Also a law, maybe the same, setting a minimum level of activity for magistrates
and a timed "check" by the Censores, for instance, wouldn't be bad to have.

>but removing Noricus when he is more than likely
>temporarily occupied by an urgent situation

Constitution of Nova Roma:

"Should one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his duties, that
magistrate may be removed by a law originating in the comitia that elected
him."

over 60 days of being out of touch is well worth to be considered a
dereliction.. let the Comitia decide about it, as Cordus said.

>and conducting an unconstitutional election is not the
>answer.

Constitution of Nova Roma:

"Should an office in mid-term become vacant and suitable candidates are at hand,
an election shall be held in the appropriate comitia to elect a successor to
serve out the remainder of the term within thirty days of the vacancy."

So how it would be unconstitutional, if the Constitution allows it expressely?
let the Comitia decide about it, as Cordus said.

Vale

DCF
PF COnstantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23462 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
avete omnes,

just a little note:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, TiAnO <tiberius_ann@y...> wrote:
>....Noricus is a RL-Swiss citizen and as most of you know, the Swiss
>have to go to military service every year for a certain amount of
>time....

when we personally met Noricus in Bologna last year, he told me he is
an Austrian living, if I remember well, by Klagenfurt or Graz. ;-)

valete
M IVL PERVSIANVS, Aedilis Curulis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23463 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete omnes,

----------
>....Noricus is a RL-Swiss citizen and as most of you know, the Swiss
>have to go to military service every year for a certain amount of
>time....

when we personally met Noricus in Bologna last year, he told me he is
an Austrian living, if I remember well, by Klagenfurt or Graz. ;-)
-----

If that information is correct, I very much would like to appologize for my wrong information!!! I seem to have mixed up two names and faces, sorry!

Greetings, TiAnO



Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO) Factio Praesina
Lictor curiatus
Translator linguae Germanicae
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23464 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete Diana et Omnes,


> As a former Tribune I agree. I do not see any law which says that
after two months of being out of
> touch, a magistrate can be removed from his office.

There aren't laws about the removal of a magistrate for absence or
laws about the unavailable of an higher magistrate. There aren't
laws about the removal of a Magistrate with Imperium and there
aren't laws about the absence of so important magistrate... I think
IMHO that we have to use the common and logical sense.
We can't talk about it because I think Consul Marinus worked in a
good way. Praetor Noricus is absent from more than 2 months, I
suppose that the common sense are saying us that this is a long
period of inactivity enough to affirm that he didin't accomplish his
duties.
And Tribune Athanasius is not vetoing the removal of an higher
Magistrate. He's vetoing the agenda by Marinus because the Tribune
thinks that is uncostitutional calling for candidates before or in
the same time of an approvation of the removal.

> And again, without a vacant office, no
> election can take place.

Yes. This is what Tribune Modius Athanasius are saying.

> I realize that we need an active Praetor quickly, but removing
Noricus when he is more than likely
> temporarily occupied by an urgent situation and conducting an
unconstitutional election is not the
> answer.

I have read several and too wrong opinions about Illustrus Noricus.
We know nothing about him and we can't claim that he's engaged is an
higher activity. I have read teh following sentences:
- Noricus is german ... faulse
- Noricus is working with NATO ... we don't know it
- Noricus is in afghanistan ... we don't know it
- Noricus live in Swiss ... faulse, he live in Austria at Graz
- Noricus is working temporary for the swiss army ... faulse, he
lives in austria
- Noricus is a german reservist ... faulse because he's austrian and
we don't if he's a reservist

We don't know anything ... Noricus could be in war, he could be died
(I hope no, I consider him an excellent man meeting him in Bologna),
he could be arrested for a crime, he could be sick, he could have
changed his life living in Tibet and refusing the technologies, he
could be changed side and choosen to be a gaul, he could run for the
new government of Austria or could be in mission in Irak.
He could be accomplishing an higher and honourable duty as he coudl
be doing a ignoble and bad job...
WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ... the only sure thing is that he is absent
from more than 2 months and we don't find him. We don't need other
suppositions.
WE have only pray for him as Quintilianus suggested ...

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23465 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Salve Constantinus Fuscus,

> Just a quick question: following the Lex Labiena de Intercessione:
>
> "III. The issuance of intercessio shall place the item or action
on hold,
> preventing it from being in any way effective, for 72 hours from
the time at
> which the intercessio is announced.
>
> IV. During this 72 hour period, other tribuni plebis may
officially announce
> their agreement or disagreement with the particular use of
intercessio. "
>
> So
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
>
> Lucius Arminius Faustus
>
> Julilla Sempronia Magna
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Do you actually agree or disagree with that use of intercessio?
That would
> be interesting to know.

The Costitution gives us 72 hours to announce our agreement or
disagreement. Illustrus Tribune Modius Athanasius announced his
interecessio 24 hours ago. We Tribunes have 48 hours to give our own
opinions. Leave us decide and think about ...

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Tribunus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23466 From: sabina_equitia_doris Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: I Am Voting for 'Po'
Salvete Omnes!

I shall be voting for Pompeia Cornelia Strabo.

She exhibits deep common sense and great respect for NR citizenry of
all philosophies and faiths.

Find one among us who has not made mistakes, and I will show you one
who has done little, dared little. Po may have made mistakes in the
past, "manned" up to them, and moved forward following reflection,
apologies and the setting straight of the record. She is a woman of
good concience and deep devotion to Nova Roma.

Here lately on the main list, namecalling ad hominem seems to be the
order of the day. "Po" has taken more than her share of the brunt.
I shall not undertake to malign her detractors, but I do step
forward to say that she has my vote of confidence.

A vote for Po is a vote "for" those of us in NR who are not in some
illusive and self-serving elite "clique". A vote for Po brings the
light of day into a muddied and mudslinging venue.

For those of you -- like me -- who may be discouraged to even bother
to participate in NR or vote at all, please do vote... and vote for
Po. She is a strong, vibrant and deeply concientious woman.

--Sabina Equitia Doris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23467 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Gaius Modius Athanasius Dianae Octaviae salutem dicit

We have an active Praetor; Marcus Arminius Maior. He stated that he was on vacation. Now he is back, I assume he is willing to fullfill his duties?

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/18/2004 3:30:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sacerdosveneris@... writes:

> I realize that we need an active Praetor quickly, but removing Noricus when he is more than likely
> temporarily occupied by an urgent situation and conducting
> an unconstitutional election is not the
> answer.
>
> Vale,
> Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23468 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Ave

Is he?

As explained here : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/23395

It definitely doesn't look like (and it's now almost 2 weeks, btw).

vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini


Scrive AthanasiosofSpfd@...:

> Gaius Modius Athanasius Dianae Octaviae salutem dicit
>
> We have an active Praetor; Marcus Arminius Maior. He stated that he was on
> vacation. Now he is back, I assume he is willing to fullfill his duties?
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23469 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Pompeia:

While I understand and acknowledge your questions and concerns. However, since you are a candidate in a possible election for Preator I do not feel it appropriate to engage in political discussion over this most serious matter; the matter of stripping a curule magistrate of his Imperium.

This matter is being discussed by the Tribunes, as well as Consul Marinus. I have the utmost of esteem for Consul Marinus and my fellow Tribunes. We will keep the citizenry notified of the outcome of our discussions.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:18:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scriba_forum@... writes:

> Salvete Omnes Nova Roma:
>
> If I am fully understanding the Tribune's words and with respect to
> all future proceedings it is good the Tribs have pointed this out. I
> would just like to clarify things with you, to make sure I understand
> the nature of the intercessio correctly.
>
>
>
> Tribune Modius, the wording of the first paragraph in the
> intercessio, more or less states that you are pronouncing intercessio
> on the calling of the CC, "as presented by Consul Gnaeus Equitius
> Marinus", right?.
>
> So, I take it that you are not against the actual calling of the CC by
> the Consul, which is well within his consitutional authority, and the
> Gods have spoken, this assembly being favourable, as reported from
> Pontifex G. Iulius Scaurus. Do I understand you correctly, with respect?
>
> Rather you are vetoing the agenda within same, and the comitia may be
> called 'first' to give assent or rejection as to whether they consider
> Praetor Noricus in absentia, thereby forfeiting the imperium they
> extended to him?
>
> I fully endorse the notion that the imperium invested to G. Octavius
> Noricus should be rescinded by the assemblies which gave it to him in
> the first place. And, although I think that the Consul was acting in
> a manner of good faith, to expedite efficiency, I can respect where
> you would want a separate vote to officialy declare Noricus (or not)
> as officially out of office.
>
> So I take it that Consul Equitius may proceed to call the Comitia
> Centuriata on the above matter, and then dealing with a potential
> election, in a subsequent call?
>
> Valete, and I would appreciate your clarfication, Honored
> Tribune, so
> that we may all be on the same page.
>
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23470 From: pompeia_cornelia Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
---Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius Tribune:

I can appreciate the Tribunes' position in this regard, and my thanks
for acknowledging my request for clarification as outlined in my post
to you below.

Vale,
Pompeia




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Pompeia:
>
> While I understand and acknowledge your questions and concerns.
However, since you are a candidate in a possible election for Preator
I do not feel it appropriate to engage in political discussion over
this most serious matter; the matter of stripping a curule magistrate
of his Imperium.
>
> This matter is being discussed by the Tribunes, as well as Consul
Marinus. I have the utmost of esteem for Consul Marinus and my fellow
Tribunes. We will keep the citizenry notified of the outcome of our
discussions.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:18:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
scriba_forum@h... writes:
>
> > Salvete Omnes Nova Roma:
> >
> > If I am fully understanding the Tribune's words and with respect to
> > all future proceedings it is good the Tribs have pointed this out. I
> > would just like to clarify things with you, to make sure I understand
> > the nature of the intercessio correctly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Tribune Modius, the wording of the first paragraph in the
> > intercessio, more or less states that you are pronouncing intercessio
> > on the calling of the CC, "as presented by Consul Gnaeus Equitius
> > Marinus", right?.
> >
> > So, I take it that you are not against the actual calling of the CC by
> > the Consul, which is well within his consitutional authority, and the
> > Gods have spoken, this assembly being favourable, as reported from
> > Pontifex G. Iulius Scaurus. Do I understand you correctly, with
respect?
> >
> > Rather you are vetoing the agenda within same, and the comitia may be
> > called 'first' to give assent or rejection as to whether they consider
> > Praetor Noricus in absentia, thereby forfeiting the imperium they
> > extended to him?
> >
> > I fully endorse the notion that the imperium invested to G. Octavius
> > Noricus should be rescinded by the assemblies which gave it to him in
> > the first place. And, although I think that the Consul was acting in
> > a manner of good faith, to expedite efficiency, I can respect where
> > you would want a separate vote to officialy declare Noricus (or not)
> > as officially out of office.
> >
> > So I take it that Consul Equitius may proceed to call the Comitia
> > Centuriata on the above matter, and then dealing with a potential
> > election, in a subsequent call?
> >
> > Valete, and I would appreciate your clarfication, Honored
> > Tribune, so
> > that we may all be on the same page.
> >
> > Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23471 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Popillius Laenas, to
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, and to all his
fellow-citizens and all peregrines, greetings.

Thank you both for your quick and thorough answers.
I'm going to ask you one or two follow-up questions,
but those will be in private since the election is now
in doubt in any case.

Just one thing I wanted to clarify in public:

> How do I say this to you, without making it sound
> like I don't think
> the Lex Salicia is adequate? I know you cowrote
> them and you have my
> commendation for what looks like literally days and
> days of work.

I take no offence at all, not least because I also
take no significant credit for the law - it was Salix
Astur's in conception, he was the driving force behind
it, and it was promulgated by virtue of his imperium
(and with the assistance of the consuls); I was one,
and not the chief one, among others who helped with
it, but ultimately the responsibility and the credit
for any law lies with the magistrate whose name is
upon it. However much help or advice he or she may be
given, it is his or her decision whether to accept it.
(As for 'days and days', it would be more accurate to
say 'months and months'...)





____________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23472 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Avete,

I am in complete agreement with the intercessio.

cura ut valeas,

@____@ IVLI.SEMPRON.MAGN.T.P.
|||| Julilla Sempronia Magna
Tribuna Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23473 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Edictum Censoris CFQ VII about the re-organisation of the Cohors Ce
Ex Officio Censoris Iunioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

Edictum Censoris CFQ VII about the re-organisation of the Cohors Censoris CFQ

I hereby re-organise the Cohors Censoris CFQ into three Officine, at
least to begin with. The purpose of the re-organization is to make
the work in the Cohors more effective.


I. Hereby I organise an Officina Approbatio (Office of Approvals)
within the Cohors Censoris CFQ (Censorial Staff of CFQ) to handle
approvals of new citizens. The "Caput Officina Approbatio" (Head of
the Approval Office) will also be the "Scriba Censoris Ductus CFQ"
(The Leading Censorial Scriba CFQ) of. The Officina Approbatio will
also include at least two Scribae Censoris CFQ.under the supervision
of the "Caput Officina Approbatio".

II. Secondly I will organise an "Officina_ad_Communicationes" (Office
of Communications), this officina will handle all mails which come to
the address that was censors@... and now will be sent from
our web site, this Officina will then answer much of my
correspondance as a Censor. There will be a "Caput Officina
ad_Communicationes" (Head of communications office), with the title
"Scriba Officina ad_Communicationes Primus CFQ" (First Censorial
Scriba for Communications) and at least one more Scriba Censoris CFQ
working in this Officina.

III. Thirdly there will be the "Officina Iuriis et Investigatio"
(Office of Justice and Investigation), the "Caput Officina Iuriis et
Investigatio" (Head of the Office for Justice and Investigations)
will be the "Scriba Iuriis et Investigatio Primus CFQ" (First
Censorial Scriba for Justice and Investigations). This Officina will
(continue to) make investigations of the history of Roman names and
other Censorial work and also advise Censor CFQ when it comes to
juridical issues. There will be the "Caput Officina Iuriis et
Investigatio" and at least one more Scriba Censoris CFQ working in
this Officina.

IV. Further, the "Scriba Censoris Ductus CFQ" will act as my
second-in-command in Cohors Cenoris CFQ and assist me with other
tasks in the Cohors Censoris CFQ as instructed by me. In this work he
is assigned the leadership of "Officina Ductus" (The Leading Office)
as its "Caput Officina Ductus". More Scribae Censoris CFQ may be
assigned to this Officina if need be.

V. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given the 14th of May, in the year of the Consulship of Gnaeus Astur
and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, 2757 AUC.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23474 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Edictum Censoris CFQ VIII about the assignment of Scribae to differ
Ex Officio Censoris Iunioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

Edictum Censoris CFQ VIII about the assignment of Scribae to
different Officina and promotion to "Scriba Censoris Ductus CFQ"

As a part of the re-organisation of the Cohors Censoris CFQ I will
assign the following Scribae to the following postions and duties.


I. Hereby I appoint the Scriba Censoris CFQ Honorable Caius Moravius
Laureatus Armoricus as "Scriba Censoris Ductus CFQ".

II. Hereby Honorable Agrippina Modia Aurelia and Honorable Gaia
Martiana Marcella are assigned to the Officina Approbatio as Scribae
Censoris CFQ.

II. Hereby I appoint Honorable Quintus Cassius Calvus as "Caput
Officina ad_Communicationes" with the title of "Scriba Censoris
ad_Communicationes Primus CFQ"

IV. Hereby I appoint Honorable Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta as "Caput
Officina Iuris et Investigatio" with the title "Scriba Iuris et
Investigatio Primus CFQ".

V. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given the 14th of May, in the year of the Consulship of Gnaeus Astur
and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, 2757 AUC.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23475 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete Quirites,

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:

> ... the matter of stripping a curule magistrate of his Imperium.

I think the Tribune is assuming too much. While the Comitia Centuriata
has the authority to declare Praetor Noricus derelict in his duty and
vacate his office, it doesn't have the authority to strip him of
Imperium. That decision will be up to the Comitia Curiata.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23476 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Research - Text base, source for law proposals.
TEXT BASE - THE AEDILESHIP
SUMMARY OF RESEARCH

BY LUCIUS ARMINIUS FAUSTUS, TRIBUNUS PLEBIS
YEAR 2757 A. U. C.


PROLOGUE

In the name of Ceres and Diana, patronesses of the Aediles and the Plebis, and of Magna Mater also, most celebrated by all ordos. I also make my praiers to Concordia Publica and Minerva Sapientissima, puting this poor text under their blessings. I invoke Iove Indigete, Quirinus and Mars, and surely pray also for Father Ianus - by whom I start and by whom I finish.

I´ve decided to make a small and poor text, as a summary of many sources I´ve seen and inspired. People of the quirites, here in this text you will find many of the History sources and conclusions I´ve used to write the proposals of the Aedile´s Reform laws.

On the days ahead, the first set of laws about the subject will be present for the Comitia. We look foward on the next months present the other second part.

Nova Roma must attach itself to the MOS MAIORUM, the tradition of Ancient. So, much more than politics, we must attach ourselves to research, to propose laws that makes NR nearer the Mos Maiorum and Ancient Rome.

So, this text is a small explanation of the Aedileship on Ancient. When I was plebeian aedile last year I had the opportunity to discovery many interesting things about this SPETACULAR magistrature NR needs so much. And studing the unique origins of the aedilship, we understand better the way the roman magistrates acted, and grow our romanitas and knowledge.

I want also to most warmly thanks the following citizens: To A. Apollonius Cordus, L. Didius Geminius Sceptius, C. Emilia Finnica, L. Sicinius Drusus, G. Popilius Laenas, F. Apulus Caesar, D. Octavia Aventina, S. Fabia Vera Fausta, G. Octavius Noricus, T. Galerius Paulinus, G. Equitius Marinus, G. Flavia Tullia, G. Iulius Scaurus, H. Rutilius Bardulus, C. Curius Saturninus, S. Postumius Tubertus, G. Modius Athanasius, J. Sempronia Magna, M. Arminius Maior, G. Salix Astur, T. Arminius Genialis, M. Iulius Perusianus, C. Fabius Quintilianus, M. Octavius Germanicus, and many others which names I can´t remember now, but helped on gathering bibliography and supported the will of a Aedilitian Reform.

To all of them, my most sincere thanks.

Alea iacta est, see the text with piety and good-will, as I did it besides my lack of knowledge.



INDEX
1. The History of the Aediles
2. The Sacrosanct Solution
3. The Creation of the Curule Aediles
4. Aedile´s Cursum Honorum
5. The End of the Aedile´s Age
6. The Big Problem - Timeline
7. Imperium X Potestas


1) THE HISTORY OF THE AEDILES

'Aedes' means temple on latim. Do not make confusion with the word ´Templum´ e. g. the sacred place. Aedes means the building itself. Upper a Templum, an aedes may be built.

'Aedicula' means shrine, oratory, small temple like a chapel.

On the very beggining, even before the creation of the Tribunes and the pacification of Latium, on the begginings of Roman Republic, the Plebis gathered itself on Ceres´ Aedes.

The worshipp of Ceres, goddess of Agriculture, later merged with the greek eleusian Demeter, was deeply plebeian.

The Plebis gatherings didn´t obbeyed much conventions. The Plebis was outside of the patrician gentilic religio (except if attached to a patrian gens as a cliente) so it used to not have the religio necessities of the formal comitias (like the old Curiata or Centuriata).

The plebeians, having the Temple (Aedes) of Ceres as their main cult, used to gather there for the cerimonies... and discuss politics as well.

Few is know, and pratically there is no sources about, when some plebeians were encharged to keep the temple. As keepers of the Aedes, the name of them have become ´Aedilis´.

Problably none was thinking on a magistracy, with all powers and sacred obligations like consulship or praetorship, but nothing more than the head of ´a big plebeian sodalitas´ to keep the manteinance of the building. We have no information how these first aediles worked, neither how they changed office between them, neither if it was a couple, neither if them changed yearly. The Plebis had some of them to care of its Aedes. Were they the Ceres´ priests? I´ve never seen a source with a proof, besides it is a probable idea.

This happened before the creation of the Tribuneship. Probably, on the very stairs of Ceres´ Aedes, the plebeians shouting on their assembly decided to go to the Sacred Mount fleeing from patricians and conscription. Soon after, the Tribunes were created.

The formation of the Tribunes is mainly lost on the past also. The narratives we have are a bit legendary. We do not have the name of the first tribunes, however, common of roman historiograph, since even these time consulships were hard to be recovered even by roman historians.

Other sources appoint the origin of the Plebeian Aedilship at 494BC (Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities) at the same time of the tribuneship. However, I understand since the patricians had to recognize ´Tribunes´ to care the needs of the plebis, they had also to recognize these men that kept the Plebis´ Temples.

The own Harry cites that the Aediles were appointed by the Tribunes, until 471 when they were elected by the plebis. He says the aediles originally were ´servants´ of the Tribunes. This probably is correct depending on the way you understand. Since the Tribunes were the ´champions´ of the Plebis to protect from patricians magistrates, all Plebis urged to support them. Alas, the place were the Tribunes had to keep their ´files´ and ´headquarters´ were the Ceres´ Aedes. Serving Ceres´ Aedes was serving all Plebis, and the tribunes were the political leaders of it. But notice the short time, 494 to 471, of ´independence´ of the Aediles. It means the structures of choosing the aediles as well as the tribunes were been formed in parallel. Next on this text, we will discuss how roman government has given to the plebeian aediles functions outside the scope of their class.

Unfortunatly, for all roman magistracies on these initial times, there is a imense lack of information, even on the roman times. Sure the creation of ´plebeians magistracies´ were generations´ evolution, and the narrative of the Sacred Mount is - perhaps - just a beautiful legend.

On Livius III, 31 I´ve found a most interesting scope of judiciary function of the plebeian aediles. Happened on the consulship of Spurius Tarpeius and Aulus Aternius. The former consules were accused by the plebeian magistrates for bad management, by selling the spoils of the equii, after victory in the battle of Algido. The fomer consul Titus Romilius was accused by Tribune Caius Calvius Cicero and his colleague Caius Veturius by the plebeian aedile Lucius Alienus. They were condemned by the people to pay fines, for the great angryness of the patricians. Romilius paid 10000 asses, and Veturius 15000.


2) THE SACROSANCT SOLUTION

The Plebis wasn´t considered as roman people on the begginings. Even on the time of the Punic Wars, ancient invocations do separate roman people (patricians and his clientes) of plebeians.

"Ut ea mihi populo plebique romanae bene verrucent" - Livius XXIX,27

"Ut ea res mihi magistratuique meo, populo plebique romanae bene atque feliciter eveniat" - Cicero, Pro Murena

If fact, on the time of Cicero and Livius the Plebis already were part of the Populus, but the arcaic expression is a testimony.

The roman kings have given to the plebis the citizenship. Nevertheless, the ancient patricians never recognized this. The plebis were not ´roman people of the quirites´. The Plebis were the heterogeneous bunch of people that came to Rome after foundation, conquered population, bastard patrician sons, free slaves, refugees, fled italian bandits. They lived outside the Poemerium of Romulus´ city, on Aventine hill, without gods, lares, gentes, magistrates and leges.

The roman kings did approached Plebis, as an opposition to the strong patricians families, speacially the etruscan last kings. However, the Republican Coup d´Etat has brought the patricians to the power again. The patricians did not revoked the right of citizenship, but haven´t allowed plebeians to the magistracies. Since plebeians lacked of the gentilic religio of the lares, they were not able to perform the sacred duties of the magistrates and taking the auspices nedeed to the offices. (In fact, plebeian gentes were seen only on the three last centuries of Republic)

On other side, the plebeians never understood the gentilic religio of the patricians, and as their numbers and power grows, they desired to hold magistratures as well. However, on ancient world, a magistrature was never disattached of religio duties. Ancient men cannot imagine a power ´coming from man to a man´, but ´derived from the gods to a man´. So, ever magistrature was sacred.

It doesn´t mean the plebis were without religio. No, the religio feeling is a constant of mankind. The Plebis had their cults, as Diana, Ceres and public larariuns, but very different of the gentilic religio of the patrician lares, their shrines of the gentes and sacrifices of the curias. For the patricians, this was horrible, a created non-natural religio and a disrespect to the gods and the proper gentilic cult. For a patrician, couldn´t exist base of the society other than the traditional lares of the patrician families, gentes and curias, e.g. the ancient religio of the ancestors.

On greek world, the solution of this problem was the Tyrants. The Tyrants were men empowered by the plebis to govern in their name, without any sacred duty of the basileus (king). The Tyrants had popular support and usually used this power to opress the ancient gentilic nobility. However, a Tirany usually happened after social unrest and bloodly civil wars.

On roman world, after the episode of the Sacred Mount, the answer was the Tribuneship. As Coulanges says:

"The power of the Tribunes were not of the same authority of a magistrate, because it is not derived form the city religio. The Tribune didn´t lead a religio cerimony, elected without auspices, without necessity of gods´ agreement. The Tribune hasn´t curule chair, toga pretexta, purple, laurel crown, neither any symbol of veneration of the roman magistrates"

"Until then, men couldn´t have imagined authority without being a extension of the priesthood. So, when they had to entablish a power free from religio and non-priest chiefs, they had to imagine a unique substitute. On the day they created the first Tribunes, they realized a particular cerimony. The Historians didn´t describe the rites, but said the objetive was transform the first Tribunes on sacrosancts."

"The word sacrosanct applies to objects dedicated to the gods and men cannot touch. The dignity of a Tribune was not declared worthy and saint, but the own Tribune body, so the body wasn´t more profane, but an sacred object. Since then, no man could offend a Tribune without be guilt of sacrilege"

(Ancient City, book IV, chapter VII - I´ve translated from my portuguese version to english, and the original is in french. Sorry by the poorness of the version)

So, turning plebeians into sacrosanct bodies was the answer of the needs of plebeian magistrates. In fact, aediles and tribunes, on our view, are magistrates and we call them magistrates as well. But not on the beginnings! (However, on later republic their are called magistrates by extension, even by Cicero. However, this is after centuries of transformations and social unrest that allowed plebeians to all magistratures and priesthoods.)

There is sources that indicates the aediles as sacrosancts as well. It is logical for me. There was the only solution to accept their magistracy. Says the Oxford Classical Dictionary "The aediles originated as two subordinates of the tribunes of the plebs whose sacrosancity they shared. Their central function was to supervise the common temple (aedes) and cults of the plebs, those of Ceres and Diana on the Aventine." (previous on this text, I´ve discuted the concept of subordinates) I fell, however, since the aediles haven´t so many ´edge´ to be in conflict with the patrician magistrates like the Tribunes, this sacrosancity haven´t become so famous like their colleagues.

Says Harry specifically about the plebeian aediles: "it was their duty to make arrests at the bidding of the tribunes; to carry out the death-sentences which they passed, by hurling the criminal down from the Tarpeian Rock; to look after the importation of corn; to watch the traffic in the markets; and to organize and superintend the Plebeian and Roman Games. Like the tribunes, they could only be chosen from the body of the plebs, and wore no badge of office, not so much as the toga praetexta, even after they became an authority independent of the tribunes."

Perhaps, as the gentilic religio has become weaken and the patricians allowed plebeian to the curule magistratures, the own sacrosancity weren´t more respected. There were even cases of Tribunes beated and murdered.

On Livius III, 51 there is the description of a reform, on the consulship of Lucius Valerius and Marcus Horatius, about many important matters, as the power of the Plebiscites upon all romans. This happened after the revolt against the Denceviri, which government has become a practical tyranny. With the restoration of the consulship and tribuneship, a law was passed as well to grant inviolability to Tribunes and Plebeian Aediles. However, on the same text, Livius states that many roman jurists stated that this law only entablished capital punishment for atempts againts the plebeian ´magistrates´ not giving sacrosancity. According to them, the sacrosancity comes only by the ancient religio ritual on the starting of the Tribuneship, not by law. Anyway, the translator/comentarist of my portuguese version, Paulo Matos Peixoto, on a note to this text, coments this piece of text is of a special harder interpretation and obscure meaning.

On this consulship, started the use of giving the senatusconsultum to be kept by the plebeian aediles on Ceres´ Aedes. Well, if we imagine on Nova Roma the Senate acts must be reported by the Tribunes to people, and the aediles must help them with the files, our uses are not far from the ancient.

This is not only the reference of Livius to the plebian aediles. The Senate has encharged the plebeian aediles to keep the right roman rituals on the worshipp of the gods, against the invasion of foreign cults. On VI,4 after the destruction of Rome by the gauls, the Senate has encharged the plebeian aediles to oversee the rebuilding of the particular houses as they already did to public buildings.

3) THE CREATION OF THE CURULE AEDILES

It is hard to say how, but the ´Plebeian created´ Aediles were a sucess of the roman government. The very WHY the government decide to create another aediles is somewhat legendary as well.

We´ve seen before how on the consulship of Lucius Valerius and Marcus Horatius the plebeian aediles received the ´official´ responsability to keep the senatusconsultum.

The Curule aedilship started on 365 BC. Livius VII,1 tells this year there was two new magistracies, the praetoship and the curule aedilship. The patricians demmanded the curule aedilship for them, since on this very year was nominated a first plebeian consul, Lucius Sextius, plebeian, with the patrician Lucius Emilius Mamerco as colleague. The praetor was Spurius Furius Camilo, and the first curules aediles, Cneus Quincius Capitolinus and Publius Cornelius Scipio.

On the Livius VI, 42 (the chapter imediately before the VII, 1), the own historian tells what flared the creation of this new aedilship. After victories of the romans upon the gauls on Anius River, the Senate declared the celebration of the Ludi Maximi to praise the gods, and added one more day to the usually three. The plebeians aediles refused to hold the games. The patrician youth, on answer, asked the Senate and the Dictator Marcus Furius to be elected aediles, saying they would hold the games with much pleasure to thanks the gods.

This means the roman government and the patricians consules were in fact giving responsabilities and duties to the plebeian aediles, seeing them as part of the political body of Rome.

Curule means ´Now an aedile that really is a magistrate´ - Curule, like consules and praetores are curule magistrates as well. The curule magistrates had the sella curulis and the toga praetexta.

The Curule Aedilship is an answer of the roman patrician government for the ´appearance´of a new magistrate, the aedile... and worst, a magistrate that really is not a magistrate: Plebeian only, incapable of taking auspices, incapable to make the rituals the religio demands of the magistrates, elected by a Comitia Plebis gathered without the auspices, and probably poisoned by the plebeian unrest and ideology.

In the same year of the institution of the curule aedilship, the Tribunes started an unrest on the plebis. They thought be no fair that in exchange of a plebeian consul, the patricians created three curules magistrates for them. Livius tells the Senate was really forced to determine this aedilship only for the patricians and after decided that by two by two years a curule aedile should be plebeian. But as ever magistrature, the plebeians fighted as well to have free access to this one too. Has the access of the plebeians to the Curule Aedilship made empty the plebeian aedilship? I´ve nerver seen sources about this. As Rome grows, sure there was lots of games and buildings to ´the four majors´ keep.

But remains of fight of the classes still remained on the aedilships. The Megalesia Ludi, hold by the Curule Aediles on honour of Magna Mater, was a patrician sponsored worshipp, while the Cerealia Ludi, hold by the Plebeian Aediles, was the most traditional plebeian feast. Well, a quick look confirm us Cibele and Ceres were of the same ´function´ as nature/agrarian deities, besides Hesiodo cosmogony has made Ceres daughter of Cibele. While the mother kept the ´Wild Nature´, the daughter cared of the ´Cultivated Nature´.

Says Harry: "The functions of the two were very much alike, comprising: (a) the superintendence of trade in the market, where they had to test weights and measures and the quality of goods; to keep down the price of provisions, both by prohibitive measures especially against regraters of corn, and by the purchase and liberal distribution of food (cura annonae); and, as regards the money market, to prosecute those who transgressed the laws of usury; (b) the care of the streets and buildings within the city and the circuit of a mile outside, by cleansing, paving, and improving the streets, or stirring up those who were bound to do it; by seeing that the street traffic was unimpeded; by keeping in repair the temples, public buildings, and works, such as sewers and aqueducts, and seeing that these latter and the fire apparatus were in working order; (c) a superintendence of health and morals, including the inspection of baths, taverns, and brothels, and the putting-down of all that
endangered public order and decency, e. g. games of hazard, breaches of sumptuary laws, introduction of foreign religions, etc.; (d) the exhibition of games (of which the Roman and Megalensian devolved on the curule, the Plebeian on the plebeian aediles), the supervision of festivities at the feriae Latinae, and at games given by private men. The cost of the games given by themselves they defrayed partly out of a sum set apart by the State, but utterly inadequate to the large demands of later times; partly out of the proceeds of fines which were also spent on public buildings, and partly out of their own resources. "

Says Oxford: "The main duties of all aediles were the care for the fabric of the city and all that went on in it, including the streets of Rome, public order in cult practices, the water supply, and the market. In addition, they acted as protectors of the common people against the usurpation of public land, extortionate money-lending, rape, and insults to the plebs... the subsequent functions, however, of both sets of aediles can be chiefly explained as patronage of the urban plebs."

On other words, the aediles, making their ludi, overseeing the wheat, controling the market, streets and aqueducts, served roman population. Since urban plebis was 90-99% of Roma population on later republic, this text can be understood without much class conotation.

After the creation of the curules, the previous aediles were called plebeian aediles, by opposition. It is not an AEDILE FOR THE PLEBIS, but a AEDILE OF THE PLEBIS. The Plebeian Aedile do not act UPON the Plebis, but act UPON all the citizens, on the name of the plebis, eg, up to 90% of the population, as the same way the Plebiscitum made laws upon all romans .

The aediles become the keepers of the city. This remainds me a question of liguistics: On modern Portuguese Language, nowadays, I´ve seen discourses calling a city mayor (prefeito) as ´edil´ (aedile). Surely on poetic and rethoric language, but still a testimony of the ancient practices.


4) AEDILE´S CURSUM HONORUM

Really, the ancient cursum honorum is only quaestor, praetor and consul. In fact, the aedilship was a dead end on the cursum honorum. However, many former tribunes become plebeian aediles, as well many pretores have seek aedilship to political reasons. (Besides, as says Oxford, the curules were below praetores)

Say Harry: "Thus the aedileship became an expensive luxury, and its enjoyment less and less acessible to men of moderate means. Ambitious men often spent incredible sums in getting up games to win the people's favour, with a view to higher honours, though the aedileship was not necessary as a stepping-stone to these."

Famous aedile was Caesar, on his aedilship the games were elevated to a level Of expenses never seen. Caesar, like many others, have ambitioned the aedilship to please population and aim a consulship later. Besides the ´dead end´, the aedilship were the best magistrature to show himself to the Populi. The Scipio brothers have also used the aediship for their political agenda. Sulla only gathered praetorship after the aedilship, by popular pressure (Plutarch, the life of Sulla)

Surely the situation of NR is different. Since our needs are of fast cursus honorum and necessity of a ample harvest of capable people to fill higher magistratures, the aedilship is included on the cursus honorum. But if we see many NR consuls coming form the Curule Aedilship, the prestige of the aediles is really the same of Ancienty.

5) THE END OF THE AEDILES´ AGE

The Imperial times was the decline of the aedilship. Caesar created two more aediles, the Aediles Cerealis, to take care of the distribution of corn and wheat to the city. I´ve seen sources saying they were patricians, others says plebeians.

Says Harry : "Under the Empire the office of aedile lost much in importance by some of its functions being handed over to separate officers, especially by the transference of its jurisdiction and its control of games to the praetors; and it fell into such contempt that even Augustus had to make a tenure of it, or the tribuneship, a condition of eligibility to the praetorship; and succeeding emperors often had to fill it by compulsion. In the third century A.D. it seems to have died out altogether."

6) THE BIG PROBLEM - TIMELINE

We face a problem. Because in Nova Roma we are trying to merge all republican habits. And the roman Republica changed so much during its government.

Problably, because the aediles were not ´executive government´ like consules and Praetor, but carried a burden much more internal of daily city activities, we see few references to election of aediles. On Livius, perhaps only a dozen compared to hundreds of consules and praetores. The year´s aedilships are told only when hold by some later famous man.

We must notice we have the name of the first two curule aediles, but nothing about the first plebeians. The Plebeian Aediles developed themselves on a time before the curule aediles, a time mostly lost on the annals.

Our big problem is timeline. The ´golden age´ of the Plebeian Aedile was the early republic, the time of the first tribunes, early the etruscan-equi-volschi wars. These times were few documented, even for consulships. The great sucess of the curule aedilship was the middle-later republic. And on the Empire was the decadence of both.

It is hard to merge all ´peak´ duties of the aediles on a single novoroman experience. However, for the greater fullfilment of the mission of Nova Roma, we shall try on the best of our resources.

7) IMPERIUM X POTESTAS

Now it is time to explain a roman distinction that has cause many mistakes, even on Nova Roma. The difference between Imperium and Potestas.

All magistrates have potestas. Potestas is:

7.1) Ius coercendi minor (power to compel obedience using minor force)
7.2) Ius edicendi (power to issue edicts)
7.3) Partial iurisdictio (power to interpret the law)
7.4) Ius contionem habendi (power to hold a contio).

Imperium, in the urbs (because the provincial governors had it outside), only the dictator, consul and praetor have. Imperium is potestas plus:

7.5) Ius agendi cum populo (calling People to vote)
7.6) Ius agendi cum senatu (calling Senate to vote)
7.7) Ius triumphandi (right to receive and perform a Triumph Celebration)
7.8) Ius coercendi maior (power to compel obedience using maior force)
7.9) Full iurisdictio (power to interpret the law, on all ways)

The Curule Aediles don´t have Imperium, but have potestas like their colleagues plebeians. The Curule Aediles on Ancient Rome received also:

7.10) Ius Imaginum (the inclusion of the imago of the magistrate in the masks of his families ancestors)

Consulares and Senatores had also the Ius Imaginum.

Much people in NR makes confusion between the ius edicendi. Every magistrates has it, as part of the potestas. But issue edictas are not exclusive duty of the Imperium. And there is also degrees on Imperium also, the Imperium of the Dictator is greater than the consules, that are greater than the Praetores.

A Magistrature curul has the right to use the "sella curialis", the curule chair as used by consules and praetores, right of speaking in the Senate and the toga praetexta.

Tribunes have potestas and power to call Comitia to vote. Much Tribunes after their name writes TRP, Tribunicia Potestas.

And the honour? Yes, Curule Aediles had more honour than plebeian ones. The difference is deeply attached in the nature of the plebeian magistratures, that really aren´t magistrates, but sacrosanct bodies. Sure on later Republic this division has almost disappeared, as the ancient gentilic religio bounds weakened (you cannot agree on the sacrosanct solution to a plebeian hold a magistrature since the plebeians have already gathered many consulships and priesthoods).

So there was honour. Two aedilships have almost the same duties, one a prestigious curule traditional magistrature, another a old and sacrosanct in rights. As the two pair of aediles did the same, disappeared on the same age.

Quirites, here I finish this small research. I hope you undertand the historic needes behind the law proposal of the aedile´s reform. Keep this text with yourselves, to consult them.






---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger - Fale com seus amigos online. Instale agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23477 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: ROMAN DAYS
L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit

Salvete,

ADLOCVTIO
NEWSLETTER OF THE TWENTIETH LEGION

Vol. XIV, no. v, May 2004

ROMAN DAYS
Yes, it's that time again! The sixth annual Roman Days will be
on June 12-13, 2004. It is hosted by the Twentieth Legion and will be held
at Marietta Mansion in Glenn Dale, Maryland, 4 miles east of I-95/I-495
(Capital Beltway) near the junction of Routes 450 and 193. Representatives
from the Gallic provinces will also be invited, plus any Greeks, Sumerians,
Ice Men, or other ancient types that turn up, but naturally the emphasis
will be on Rome. Not just military reenactors, but civilians, teachers,
wargamers--if you have any interest in ancient history, please come! Be a
participant or just come and talk to everyone about our mutual passion. You
do NOT need to have period clothing to participate!
There will be static displays with domestic items, models,
childrens' activities, a couple merchants and craftspersons, Bean the
Barbarian, and more.
Come one, come all! Let me know how you'd like to participate,
or if you wouldn't mind just manning a table for a while. Or just show up
and hang out!

Group leaders: Are any of your members planning to attend? Need
tent space?

There is more information on the Roman Days page of the
Twentieth Legion Website, http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rdays.html

TENTATIVE SCHEDULE
--Arrive and set up on Friday, or Saturday morning. You may camp at the
site Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night.
--Open to the public 10 AM to 4 PM Saturday and Sunday, admission $4 for
adults, $2 for Students. No fee for participants or merchants.

FRIDAY
Arrival and set-up, general hobnobbing

SATURDAY, June 12
10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
11 AM, Full muster and opening remarks
11:30, Kids' Cohort
12 Noon, Gladiatorial Show
1 PM Massed tactical and drill demo
1:30 PM, Kids' Cohort
2 PM, Missile and Artillery Demonstration
3 PM Evolution of the Roman Soldier
4 PM Close to the Public

SUNDAY, June 13
10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
11 AM Olympic competition--Armor Race, Pilum Throw, Hamata Toss, etc.
11:30 Drill and Kids' Cohort
12 Noon, Gladiatorial Show
1 PM Massed tactical and drill demonstration
1:30 PM, Kids' Cohort
2 PM, Missile and Artillery Demonstration
3 PM, Closing parade
4 PM, Close to the public

Plenty of space for displays, parking, period or modern camping,
etc. Water, portajohns, straw, firewood. There will be a number of
canopies/pop-up flies for shade or rain protection, mostly for the merchants
and table displays. There are a number of hotels within a few miles, mainly
on Rt. 450 near the Beltway.

Merlinia's "Keltic Kitchen" (okay, I made up that name!) will
again be offering a food plan to participants, $20 for 2 breakfasts and
Saturday night feast. Please make your reservations and send her payment
as soon as possible,

Joanne Shaver
147 Franklin Ave.
Maplewood, NJ 07040
merlinia@...

Lunches will be available at Asellina's Caupona for about $5,
and there will also be a modern food vendor. There are stores, restaurants,
and fast food places within a couple miles, farther west/north along Rt.
193, or near the Beltway.

Marietta Mansion is located at 5626 Bell Station Road, just off
Rt. 193. From I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450
East, go 4 miles, turn left on Rt. 193, then the next left onto Bell Station
Rd. and immediately left into Marietta. (Rt. 450 makes a left turn where it
meets Rt. 704, but it's well marked and should cause no problems.)

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23478 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
G. Popillius Laenas L. Cornelius Sardonicus S.P.D.

>>At least I got your name right this time.<<

GPL: Salve Luci Corneli,

Hahah, I new you would - no worries.


> In my opinion, even in the Eagle article you say nothing more
> than, "I quit. People convinced me I was wrong to quit, so I came
> back." It still doesn't address the question at hand. 'If you
were
> to find yourself in the same circumstances as those which caused
you
> to resign last time, what would you do differently and what the
> same?'


GPL: It's probably not the best piece of writing in the world. I
will try to summarize my thoughts:

(1) Just about everyone here has thought of resigning at one time
or another.

(2) I experienced some extreme frustration and disappointment. I
wasn't mad; I was completely disillusioned, and carried through with
resignation.

(3) Once I had taken the step, I realized I was wrong. For me at
least, I had to actually resign before I realized it was not the
solution.

To answer the question, "Would I do it again?" - NO, I learned a
lesson. I would not resign; I would take consul with those friends
I mentioned.

>Your assertion that you see things differently now is
> overshadowed by the fact that you deny resigning due to an "off in
a
> huff" waiting period that only exists to convenience people who
tend
> to go off in a huff.


GPL: Well I really did not go off "in a huff" and then think better
of my decision after "cooling down". If you look at the archives at
the time of my resignation you will see that I did so without a stir
and without any "look at me, I taking my ball and going home" antics.

It was a deeply personal decision. I thought I had carefully
considered the issues and made a thoughtful decision. The friends I
referred to made me see I was wrong.

My situation with regard to resigning a magistracy WAS indeed
different than a resignation that isn't rescinded. I changed my
mind and returned to my duties to complete my term. Under our laws
I was able to return "without penalty". However, I fully understand
now, as I did then, that there is a penalty - a stain, and loss of
dignitas, from following through on that action that most of us have
considered. I wrote the article in an attempt to help others avoid
that loss.

Vale,

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23479 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Hum... there is curule magistrates without Imperium also...

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
>
> > ... the matter of stripping a curule magistrate of his Imperium.
>
> I think the Tribune is assuming too much. While the Comitia
Centuriata
> has the authority to declare Praetor Noricus derelict in his duty
and
> vacate his office, it doesn't have the authority to strip him of
> Imperium. That decision will be up to the Comitia Curiata.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23480 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - VI - Imperium
Articles on Roman Government - VI - Imperium


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.


Imperium
The full kingly power among the Romans, the royal authority over all
members of the State. It was conferred on the newly-elected king by
the Comitia Curiata, a formal assembly of the patricians comprising
the curiae, and it consisted of the rights of levying the citizens
for military service, of leading the army, of celebrating a triumph,
of exercising civil and criminal jurisdiction, and of inflicting
punishment on the citizens, whether corporal or capital, or such as
affected either their property or their liberty. A symbol of this
authority was the axe and the bundle of rods borne by the lictors.
See Fasces.

At the establishment of the Republic the imperium was transferred to
the two consuls, as the successors of the kings; but the full power
of the imperium was then limited by the fact that both possessed the
same power, and that, in the penalties they inflicted in times of
peace, they were subject to the right of appeal (see Provocatio), and
to the intervention of the tribunes of the people, after the
institution of that office. When the consulship was deprived of its
civil jurisdiction and the praetorship instituted for this purpose,
the praetors also received the imperium; nevertheless it was more
limited (minus) than that of the consuls, who, in contrast with the
praetors and all other magistrates except the tribunes, had the right
of ordering and forbidding. The imperium in its undivided and
unlimited form was conferred on those who in exceptional cases were
appointed dictators. It was also possessed by the interrex, but for
five days only. For consuls and praetors the imperium could be
prorogued, i. e. prolonged beyond their time of office; but the
imperium thus prolonged was finitum, i. e. bounded within the limits
of their province. In the Republic it could also be conferred by
means of the Comitia Curiata, but this act fell into a mere
formality. Under the Empire the term imperium included the highest
military authority, which resided in the emperor and was the
foundation of all his power. It was taken up either at the instance
of the Senate or the troops. Its full validity depended on its
recognition by both.


Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.


IMPE´RIUM
IMPE´RIUM and IMPERA´TOR. Imperium is the name of the power attaching
to the higher magistrate of the Roman People, as soon as he has been
fully installed in office by the passing of a Lex Curiata. It is
qualified by the nature of the office to which it appertains
(Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 p. 845): we have a kingly imperium, a
consular imperium, a praetorian imperium, and a dictatorial imperium.
In all cases it includes the capacity for both civil and military
command. The praetor, for instance, is equally qualified to take
command of an army and to administer justice between the citizens ;
he does both by virtue of the imperium of his office. The details of
the manner in which the imperium operates in the processes of Roman
Law will be better discussed under JURISDICTIO Here we have rather to
consider the historical and constitutional aspects of the question.

Imperium domi et militiae.--Instead of dividing (as modern states
commonly do) the functions of civil and military command, the Romans
merely distinguished locally two spheres of [p. 996] administration.
Outside the walls (militiae, on service ) the imperium exists in all
its fulness. Its civil and military powers are exercised at pleasure
by every provincial governor. Inside the walls (domi) the imperium
is, under the Republic, limited by various restrictions; it is
subject to the intercessio of a colleague, to provocatio ad populum,
and to extinction by the lapse of the period of time assigned to the
office. From the year 494 B.C. the imperium at home is likewise
crossed by the rival power of the magistrates of the plebs. From all
these restrictions the imperium abroad is free. The difference
between the two is not sufficient to make military rule absolutely
impossible in the city. On the occasion of a triumph the magistrate
(unless he be stopped by a tribune) rides with his army through the
street. When the city is actually attacked, it must of course be
defended by men enrolled under military discipline, and to the
magistrate with imperium the command of these men would necessarily
belong; unless, however, he got rid of intercessio and provocatio by
being nominated dictator, he would be somewhat hampered in the
exercise of that command. But under ordinary circumstances the
distinction between the two localities was enough practically to
exclude military government from the space within the walls, to
confine the magistrate at home to the civil functions of his
imperium, and so to justify the verbal opposition of domi and
militiae.

The magistrate legally qualified to act both domi and militiae was
further bound by constitutional custom not to confuse the two
spheres, but to mark his entry on the freer field of authority by a
solemn exit under special auspices, by the change of dress in which
he laid aside the gown of peace for the crimson mantle
(paludamentum), and by the assumption of the axes which symbolised
his enlarged powers. Under the regulations of the later Republic, the
occasions on which he was to transfer himself from the one field of
government to the other were not left to the discretion of the
magistrate, but were marked out for him by the law. The praetor, for
instance, who has the urbana provincia assigned to him, must remain
at home administering justice. Under Sulla's regulations the same
appears to have been the case with the consuls, unless the contrary
was ordered by a senatusconsultum ut exeant paludati (Cic. ad Fam.
viii. 1. 0), which again could be frustrated by the veto of a
tribune. On the other hand, this march out must not be put off too
long. If the magistrate allows the last day of his year of office to
pass while he is still within the walls, his imperium will lapse
along with his magistracy. Probably Sulla's law prescribed a precise
time in the December of each year for the ceremony. These points are
best illustrated by the situation described in Cicero's speech de
Provinciis Consularibus, ch. 15; and fully discussed in Mommsen's
monograph entitled Rechtsfrage zwischen Caesar und den Senat.

Acquisition of the Imperium.--It would perhaps be going too far to
say that the imperium was conferred by a Lex Curiata. We find consuls
who have failed to obtain this nevertheless holding the senate and
conducting the general business of chief magistrate at Rome. It seems
to follow that by virtue of their election they can exercise much of
the power of their office, and it is that power which is called
imperium. Nevertheless it is clear that some of the main functions
appertaining to the imperium could not properly be performed unless
the magistrate were empowered by a Lex Curiata. Without this the
praetor could not sit in judgment (Dio Cass. xxxix. 19), the consul
could not hold the assembly for the election of his successors (Dio
Cass. xli. 43) nor triumph after a victory (Cic. ad Att. iv. 1. 6,
12). It even seems that he could not without it properly take the
command of an army at all ( consuli, si legem curiatam non habet,
attingere rem militarem non licet, Cic. de Leg. Agr. ii. 1. 2, 30).
Such rules might, however, be evaded. The Agrarian Law of Rullus
(B.C. 63) provided indeed first that a Lex Curiata should be passed
for the commissioners, but ordained further that if it were not
passed its effects should nevertheless accrue to them. (Cic. ib. 11,
28, quid postea si ea lata non erit? . . . tum ii decemviri, inquit,
eodem jure sint quo qui optima lege. ) This provision, though Cicero
speaks of it as monstrous, could be inserted in any law or
plebiscitum creating an extraordinary command. Even in the case of
the consul, it was held that the law of Sulla practically dispensed
with the necessity for his getting a Lex Curiata before he took
command of his province and army. Appius Claudius, consul in 54 B.C.,
who had been prevented by tribunician intercessio from passing his
Lex. Curiata, declared nevertheless (Cic. ad Fam. i. 9, 25), se,
quoniam ex S. C. provinciam haberet, lege Cornelia imperium habiturum
quoad urbem introisset. The law of Sulla manifestly only repeated the
old doctrine [see MAGISTRATUS] that the magistrate cum imperio,
though he may be prohibited from exercising his power except in his
own provincia, does not lose it (however long the lapse of time) till
he comes again within the city walls. But as the law says, totidem
litteris, that he is to be cum imperio, this is held by Appius to
confer the imperium by implication. Cicero, though he thinks that
Lentulus may have a fighting case if he wishes to dispute the claim
of Appius to supersede him, nevertheless is clearly of opinion that
this claim is good in law ( ne id quidem valde dubium est ).

Collision of Imperium.--The rules as to the collision of imperium,
when two magistrates, inferior and superior, are acting in one
sphere, are the same as those for the collision of auspices [see
MAGISTRATUS]. When two magistrates of equal power are acting together
at home, their relations are ruled by the principle of intercessio
[see MAGISTRATUS]. As the imperium outside the walls is not subject
to intercessio, a different principle there obtains. Two equal
magistrates must either agree between themselves who is to command
(Liv. xxii. 30, 4), or must divide the army between them (ib. 27, 9),
or must take command alternately (ib. 27, 6). In any case there is
always some one whom each soldier is bound to obey without question
or interference.

Transition to the Principate.--After the Second Punic War the
assignment of definite districts to each single magistrate becomes
the rule, and a double command is rare. Each [p. 997] magistrate or
pro-magistrate cum. imperio, having now his locally defined province,
is commonly bound not to interfere with his colleagues by exercising
any authority in their districts. Nevertheless we have instances in
which a coordinate or superior proconsular power is committed to a
person other than the proper governor of a province. This infinitum
imperium is ascribed by Cicero (in err. ii. 3, § 8, and iii. 91, §
213) to M. Antonius, praetor of 74 B.C., who was commissioned against
the pirates. Pompey received it for the same purpose by the Gabinian
Law (B.C. 67). Pompey had an aequum imperium cum proconsulibus (Vell.
ii. 31) on any ground within 50 miles of the sea. At a later period
(B.C. 57) the imperium infinitum was again granted to Pompey as
curator of the corn supply of Rome, and it was even proposed, though
not carried, to give him a majus imperium over that of the ordinary
governors (Cic. ad Att. iv. 1, 7). Such a superior command was
actually voted to the proconsuls Brutus and Cassius in the last days
of the Republic. (See Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 p. 655.)

The general rule, that the magistrate must govern his province
personally, was also broken through in favour of Pompey. From the
year 55 B.C. till Caesar's victory at Herda in 49 B.C. he was
proconsul of Spain; yet he never set foot in his province, but
governed it through legati, while he remained at Rome. In the year 52
he was both consul and pro-consul; for the remaining years he was
specially exempted from the rule that the imperium of the
promagistrate must lapse, as soon as its holder comes within the city
walls.

Pompey set a yet more notable precedent for the system of the
Principate, when he lent to Caesar for service in Gaul a legion which
had pronounced the sacramentum in his name. The soldiers so lent owed
allegiance to Pompey even while serving in Caesar's army; and when
the senate required each of the two proconsuls to send a legion for
service against the Parthians, Pompey offered as his contribution
that one which was in Caesar's camp. Caesar at once acquiesced in the
demand.

Proconsulare Imperium of the Principate.--In B.C. 27 the senate
assigned certain provinces to Augustus. He governed them, as Pompey
had done, by means of legati, who were invested with the subordinate
imperium pro praetore. The Emperor remained in the city without
forfeiting his proconsular imperium, although it is not clear whether
the latter could be exercised over the city itself. Besides his
proconsular authority over his own provinces, Augustus had an
infinitum imperium majus, concurrently with his brother proconsuls in
the senatorial provinces (Dio Cass. liii. 32, 5; cf. also the case of
Germanicus, Tac. Ann. ii. 43). The infinitum imperium was especially
convenient for the command of the fleet which was concentrated in the
hand of Augustus. Lastly, every soldier in the empire had pronounced
the sacramentum in verba Caesaris Augusti. The precedent of Pompey's
Gallic legion was extended to the whole army: all were soldiers of
the Emperor. He either commanded them personally or by his legates,
or else lent them to his colleagues in the Proconsulare Imperium or
to the proconsuls of the senatorial provinces. Germanicus in Germany
and Blaesus in Africa have each an independent imperium, but have
only borrowed troops. They may command them in the field, but the
Emperor retains the sole appointment of the officers, the sole charge
of the recruiting, and the sole right to discharge men from the
service. If these powers are ever exercised by another person, it is
only by delegation from the Emperor (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 pp. 848-
851).

The Emperor being regarded as continually a general at the head of
his army, not only keeps the insignia commonly associated with the
name of Imperator, the laurel wreath and laurelled fasces, but has
various prerogatives which may be deduced from those of the
Republican general. The guard of honour which escorted the commander
in the field attends the Emperor at home, and becomes the garrison of
the town of Rome. [See PRAETORIANI] The power of the general to
settle his invalided veterans on the lands he has conquered (as
Scipio did at the Spanish Italica: Appian, Hisp. 38) is interpreted
as conferring on the Emperor the right to grant away the ager
publicus; and the power of rewarding good service on the part of the
auxiliary soldiers by the gift of citizenship (Cic. pro Balbo, 8, 19)
develops into the right to make Roman citizens at will.

It is noticeable that the proconsulare imperium, though it was in
truth, as Mommsen says (Staatsr. ii.3 p. 840), the single definite
qualification absolutely necessary to the Princeps, and further
sufficient by itself alone to constitute the office, is never
mentioned by Augustus himself in the account of his own offices and
powers, which is preserved to us in the Monumentum Ancyranum. The
assignment of provinces was undoubtedly within the competence of the
senate, and it was now held (in extension of the theory propounded by
Ap. Claudius) that the senate might therewith confer the power
necessary for their government. The official silence gives us to
understand that it was a mere matter of administrative arrangement
that the charge of certain provinces and armies with the proconsular
imperium thereto appertaining was committed to Augustus. [PRINCEPS]

Title of Imperator under the Republic.--Imperator means, of course,
one possessed of the imperium. Strictly speaking, then, the title
should be equally applicable at home and on service. But from a very
early period it was felt to be uncivil in the magistrate to flaunt
his authority in the face of his fellow-citizens at home. The
nickname of Imperiosus applied to a Manlius who had unduly magnified
his office (Liv. vii. 4, 3) shows the invidious associations of the
word. Hence the title of Imperator is never assumed by the magistrate
discharging civic functions, nor is the word ever used to describe
him. In the army, on the other hand, Imperator is the regular mode of
address of the soldier to the magistrate under whom he is serving. It
is quite clear from Liv. vii. 10, 10, and vii. 16, 5, that this
address was used from the first moment that the general took the
field, and not only after a victory. The same may be gathered from
Appian's story (Bell. Civ. iv. 40) of a proscribed man, Rheginus (who
had never, so far as we know, won a victory or [p. 998] enjoyed a
triumph); one of his old soldiers is described as recognising him
with the words: Apithi chairôn, autokrator : touto gar moi prosêkei
kai nun kalein se.

After a victory it was the custom for the troops to greet their
commander with a solemn acclamation. In so saluting they employed
their every-day title of address, and the cry Imperator, Imperator,
sounded from rank to rank. This ceremony relieved the general so
honoured from the obligation of veiling his imperium, and stamped
upon him the appellation thus publicly uttered. Henceforth he appends
the word Imperator to his name, and the title is used even by
civilians who have occasion to address him. In the later Republic the
senate sometimes gives emphasis to the honourable distinction by
itself inviting or sanctioning the assumption of the title by a
victorious general. This assumption is commonly the first step
towards claiming a triumph. If it befall a man more than once in his
life to achieve successes in the field which thus authorise him to
advertise his imperium to the world, he sometimes indicates in
adverbial phrase the repetition of his honours, and signs himself
Imperator iterum or Imperator ter. Though not every possessor of the
imperium is justified in styling himself Imperator, the converse is
strictly true; it is impossible for any one to be called Imperator
unless he is vested with the imperium. No officer serving under the
direct command of another without independent auspices of his own may
accept this address (it was refused to the elder Drusus while still
only a legate, Dio Cass. liv. 33, 5), and no one who has the title
can retain it after he lays down his imperium. This occurs for the
proconsul the moment he comes within the city walls, unless his
imperium be extended for the day of triumph by decree of the people.
[See TRIUMPHUS] In this case the title lapses with the imperium after
that day.

Use of the title by Caesar.--The elder Caesar during the last
fourteen years of his life always styled himself Imperator. There is
no reason to suppose that in so doing he overstepped any legal
restriction. From the day of his victory over the Helvetii in B.C. 58
down to his death he was continuously vested with the imperium, first
as Proconsul, then as Consul (B.C. 48), and then as Dictator. As the
imperium never lapsed there was no necessity to lay down the title,
though his retention of it in the city was uncivil doubtless, and
arrogant. The title follows Caesar's name in all official documents.
[PRINCEPS]

Praenomen Imperatoris.--With Octavian we come to an entirely new use
of the word. In the third year of the triumvirate (B.C. 40) he
dropped his praenomen Caius and adopted instead the word Imperator as
a praenomen. Side by side with Marcus Antonius Marci filius we now
find Imperator Caesar Divi filius. Mommsen (Staatsr. ii.3 pp. 767-
770) has explained this strange transformation in a most ingenious
conjecture. He holds that Octavian chose to assume that the title
Imperator had so coalesced with the name of Caesar as to have become
a sort of honorary cognomen, like Magnus or Africanus. On this
assumption he himself would have a hereditary right to his adoptive
father's appellation; and once granted that Imperator was a part of
the name, it might be transferred at will from the place of cognomen
to that of praenomen, just as Nero and Drusus were used as praenomina
by several members of the imperial family. Whether we accept this
explanation or not, there is no doubt of the fact that Augustus
employed the word Imperator as a proper name--hôsper ti kurion, as
Dio Cassius (xliii. 44) says of the emperors of his own time. The
next three principes did not adopt the praenomen imperatoris, but
retained each his own ordinary praenomen of Tiberius or Caius. With
Nero the practice of Augustus was revived, and succeeding emperors
likewise assumed this praenomen, some in conjunction with, some in
substitution for, the ordinary one.

Salutation Pro Imperio.--Though not every princeps assumed the word
Imperator as part of his name, yet every one of them possessed the
proconsulare imperium, and was therefore qualified to be addressed as
Imperator either by his troops or by the senate. It was the custom at
the beginning of each reign for the senate and soldiers to attest
their recognition of this qualification in a solemn greeting which
exactly follows the precedent of the greeting after a victory. The
study of the imperial coins has led the best authorities (see
Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 p. 782) to the conclusion that,
notwithstanding the immense difference in the practical significance
of the ceremony in the two cases, the salutation pro imperio and the
salutation after a victory are in law precisely the same thing, and
that they are counted as similar units by every emperor who signifies
the number of his acclamations among his list of honours. Thus, if we
find Imp. IV. attached to a name, we are to understand that the sum
is made up by one accession to the throne and three victories.

Whensoever the senate thus salutes a man as. Imperator, this is a
solemn proclamation that they have either conferred on him (as is
their right) the proconsulare imperium, or fully acknowledge him as
already invested with it. It is not unnatural that such a salutation
by the senate should count as the dies imperii, the day from which
the Emperor dates the commencement of his reign. In the register of
the sacred college of the Arval Brothers we find a feast ob diem
imperii [Vitellii] . . . Germanici quod xiii. Kal. Mai. statutum est,
and the date is found to synchronise with the day on which the senate
heard of the defeat and death of Otho and voted the customary decrees
for his successor (Henzen, Acta Fratr. Arv. p. xciv.; Tac. Hist. ii.
55; Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 p. 842). In the case of Caligula the dies
imperii is still more clearly defined. The 18th of March is honoured

The case is different when we find the soldiers giving this
salutation to a man who does not possess the imperium which is its
legitimate foundation. There are republican precedents to show that
this need not in every case be construed as an act of mutiny. In the
7th year of the Second Punic War, after the defeat and, death of P.
and Cn. Scipio in Spain, the remnant of the Roman army placed at
their head a knight [p. 999] named Marcius, who extricated them from
their danger. When Marcius sent letters to the senate announcing
these events (Liv. xxvi. 2), he signed himself pro praetore, thus
assuming that he had de facto acquired the imperium necessary to
justify his command of the troops. As he styled himself pro praetore
his soldiers would doubtless address him as Imperator, indicating
thereby their intention to treat him as if he were their lawful
commander. The same lesson may be gathered from the story of the
first meeting of Sulla and Pompey. Pompey had on his own authority
raised an army in Picenum, had baffled the superior forces opposed to
him, and effected a junction with Sulla. When the two met, Pompey of
course addressed the victorious proconsul as Imperator: Sulla made
use of the same title in reply, thus acknowledging Pompey, not as a
mere officer of his own, but as invested with an independent command.
In both these cases the de facto imperium was presumed without any
intention of rebellion against legal authority, but in obedience to
the supposed necessities of the situation, and with the intention of
having the assumption afterwards properly ratified. In somewhat the
same way under the Principate, troops whose command was vacant by the
death of him whose soldiers they had been, might, irregularly but
without any gross breach of constitutional order, offer a provisional
allegiance to a new commander. This was done by the praetorians to
Claudius after the assassination of Caligula. In the present decay of
its practical power no choice was left to the senate but to confirm
the initiative of the soldiers. This initiative is all the more
justified when the person chosen (as Nero, for instance) already
possesses the proconsular imperium as colleague of his predecessor.
In this case, as no new imperium begins, the event is not counted in
the list of acclamations (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 1155). More
generally, however, the soldiers in giving this salutation discard a
prior allegiance. Here, too, we may find an early parallel in the
story told by Livy (vii. 39), of a military insurrection during the
Samnite War. The mutineers seized on a retired officer named
Quinctius, and offered him the choice of death or imperium et
honorem. Forced to submit, he was at once saluted Imperator, and
carried to the camp. In like manner when the army of Germany, for
instance, greeted its legate Vitellius as Imperator, this acclamation
was an act of revolution and civil war. It ascribed the proconsulare
imperium to one who not only did not already possess it, but who
could not possess it without supplanting his legal commander. It
further proclaimed the intention of these soldiers to prove their
assertion good at the point of the sword.

Vitellius, as we have already seen, dated his reign not from this
first salutation, but from the day when his authority was
acknowledged by the senate. It was no doubt the more correct and more
modest proceeding that the Emperor should thus ignore the irregular
inception of his reign, and refer his power to the moment when it was
legitimately conferred. But we also find another theory prevalent.
From the moment when the pretender has accepted from any voice the
salutation of Imperator, he has claimed to be in possession of the
magisterial authority which serves as a basis for that title. If
these pretensions are afterwards made good, he may without any great
breach of propriety look upon them as having received a retrospective
sanction, and may refer back to the moment of claim as the moment of
acquisition. So we are told (Suet. Vesp. 6) that Vespasian kept as
his dies imperii the day (July 1st) when he was first saluted
Imperator by the legions of Egypt, though for months later the senate
and the city of Rome were under the control of his rivals.

History of the Title under the Principate.--The supreme importance of
the proconsulare imperium and of the functions attached to it added
lustre to the derived name of Imperator. It might indeed attach to
other persons than the reigning princeps. The Emperor's colleagues
might accept the solemn salutation after a. victory and assume the
title of honour. Tacitus tells us (Ann. i. 3) that Augustus privignos
imperatoriis nominibus auxit, and again (ii. 26) of the younger
Drusus, that he nonnisi apud Germanos assequi nomen imperatoris et
deportare lauream posse. The title is frequent on their coins, and
the word is sometimes used to describe them (Tac. Ann. ii. 17, 2;
iii. 12, 4). It is also clear that Imperator was the everyday mode of
address which the soldiers used towards them no less than towards the
princeps. Velleius tells (ii. 104) that when Tiberius was sent by
Augustus to take command of the army of Pannonia, his old soldiers
crowded round him, exclaiming, Videmus te, Imperator, salvum
recepimus . . . ego tecum, Imperator, in Armenia, &c. The same was
probably the case with the senatorial proconsuls of Africa. The
soldiers would not have been likely publicly to salute Blaesus
Imperator, as they did after his victory over Tacfarinas (Tac. Ann.
iii. 74), unless they had been used to call him by that name in
private. On this occasion Tiberius allowed to Blaesus the assumption
of the title, but the precedent was not afterwards followed. By the
time of Domitian the word had become so distinctive an emblem of the
supreme power that an unfortunate senator was put to death because by
a slip of the tongue on the part of the crier he had been proclaimed
Imperator instead of Consul. Gradually the proconsular and military
associations connected with the words imperium and imperator fall
away. In the jurists of the 2nd century imperium and imperatoria
potestas denote the whole of the powers conferred on the chief of the
state (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii.3 p. 877, n. 1). Imperator becomes the
title of the chief magistracy, and to a great extent supplants that
of princeps by which Augustus had chosen to describe himself. [J. L.
S. D.]

A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD.
William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray.
1890.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23481 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Salvete Quirites!

The Censors have decided to allow former citizen Flavius Vedius
Germanicus to re-enter Nova Roma as a Patrician citizen. He will be
allowed to retake his name: Flavius Vedius Germanicus as a tribute to
the work he did as one of the founders of Nova Roma.

But as he have left the Res Publica twice before Lex Cornelia et
Maria de civitate eiuranda
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-iii.html fully
apply, especially V and VI.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23482 From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: A Movie Review
OK, I know we've all been hyped to death about Troy, but there is a brief
apearance of Aeneas during the sack of the titular city. I hadda give a
shout out in the movie theater to the Trojan refugee who was the father of
Romans!

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23483 From: Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Terra cotta lamp
While at Ostia recently, I bought a small terracotta lamp at the giftshop
there.
I am assuming that it is functional. However, I guess I didn't take the
porous nature of terrcotta into account. It kind of sweated out the oil onto
the countertop where I left it. Could this be a safety hazard? Do I use
olive oil for fuel? Do I need to use some kind of wick? are there any other
handy hints to getting this thing going?

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger! Download today -
it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23484 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Consul Marinus;

If we are going to remove a Preator from his magistracy, and elect a successor what are we doing other than strip him of his Imperium?

This is not simply a matter of removing the vice president of a "fan club." This is Nova Roma, the new Republic of the ancient city of Rome. A simple majority vote to stip a magistrate from office is no little thing.

What if the Comitia Curiata DOESN'T strip the Praetor of his Imperium and he returns? Will there be three Preators? The constitution only mandates TWO, unless I missed something.

From my understanding of Roman Law the only was to remove Imperium from a curule magistrate is to convict them of treason. If that is the case then lets bring Noricus up on treason charges for "dereliction" of duty and remove him from the praetorship, senate, and citizenship. But to vote a curule magistrate out of office, while they keep their Imperium is NOT the solution to this most serious problem.

If we can vote a curule magistrate out of office for being out of touch for two months then what is next? Removing a magistrate because he is Boni? Popularis? Or whatever faction is popular?

Furthermore, I did not want to bring this debate public, prefering it stay between the tribunes and yourself.

We are a people of law.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/18/2004 10:16:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> I think the Tribune is assuming too much. While the Comitia Centuriata
> has the authority to declare Praetor Noricus derelict in his duty and
> vacate his office, it doesn't have the authority to strip
> him of
> Imperium. That decision will be up to the Comitia Curiata.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23485 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit

Name one curule magistrate within Nova Roma that does not possess Imperium? I have reviewed our constitition, and from my reading of it all curule magistrates possess Imperium.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis

In a message dated 5/18/2004 2:34:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lafaustus@... writes:

> Hum... there is curule magistrates without Imperium also...
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23486 From: asseri@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Terra cotta lamp
In a message dated 5/18/04 6:09:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ahenobarbus@... writes:


> Could this be a safety hazard? Do I use
> olive oil for fuel? Do I need to use some kind of wick? are there any other
> handy hints to getting this thing going?
>
>
ohh i can help here!!
Put a small glazed dish under your lamp . That was a very normal event the
"sweating" and never burn anything but oilve oil . Olive oil is the only fuel
that will not burn on its own accord if the wick gets low. Never use any modern
lamp oil as they are extremely dangerous and might go "BOOM" !

Prima Fabia Drusila
Provincia Lacus Magni
Legatus Regionis Occidentalis
(Indiana ,Illinois)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23487 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> The Censors have decided to allow former citizen Flavius Vedius
> Germanicus to re-enter Nova Roma as a Patrician citizen. He will be
> allowed to retake his name: Flavius Vedius Germanicus as a tribute
>to the work he did as one of the founders of Nova Roma.

Welcome back Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Pater Patriae!

> But as he have left the Res Publica twice before Lex Cornelia et
> Maria de civitate eiuranda
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-iii.html fully
> apply, especially V and VI.

Actually this law does not fully apply in this situation. His first
resignation was three years before this law was passed. For the
purposes of this law, he can be considered to have one strike or
resignation.

Vale,

Pall
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23488 From: asseri@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: Terra cotta lamp
Salve ,
opps I forgot the wick ,I make my own with 5 or six strands of thick cotton
braided flat for my oil lamps . I beleive a twist of linen fibers or wool
was what was used. But use home made wicks I think wool makes a less then
healthy smoke?
"sheepishly" in service

Prima Fabia Drusila
Provincia Lacus Magni
Legatus Regionis Occidentalis
(Indiana ,Illinois)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23489 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Welcome back Pater Patriae
Welcome back Flavius Vedius,

It's wonderful to have both of our founders in Nova Roma again!

L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23490 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete Quirites, et salve Tribune Modi,

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
>
> Consul Marinus;
>
> If we are going to remove a Preator from his magistracy, and elect a
> successor what are we doing other than strip him of his Imperium?

We're acknowledging that his office is vacant. His Imperium attaches to
his person, and is not within the power of the Comitia Centuriata to take
from him. That is a decision for the Comitia Curiata, which I have no
power to convene.

> This is not simply a matter of removing the vice president of a "fan club."

I'm perfectly aware of that, Tribune.

> This is Nova Roma, the new Republic of the ancient city of Rome.

Indeed it is.

> A simple majority vote to stip a magistrate from office is no little thing.

Did I suggest otherwise? It is a significant thing. But it's also significant
when citizens can't get their elected magistrates to respond to them.

> What if the Comitia Curiata DOESN'T strip the Praetor of his Imperium and
> he returns? Will there be three Preators?

Yes, that's how I'd interpret it. There's certainly nothing in the mos
maiorum limiting the Praetorship to two office holders.

> The constitution only mandates TWO, unless I missed something.

The Constitution requires that two be elected. Furthermore it says that if
a vacancy exists, the Comitia Centuriata shall elect someone to fill that
vacancy, unless there are fewer than 90 days remaining in the year, at
which point the Senate shall appoint a suffectus.

> From my understanding of Roman Law the only was to remove Imperium from
> a curule magistrate is to convict them of treason.

While that may have been the case in Roma Antiqua (and I'm not entirely sure
it was) here in Nova Roma we have a Constitution. That Constitution requires
several things. Among those requirements are a vote by the Comitia Centuriata
to determine if a magistrate is being derelict in their duty, should there be
cause. If I had failed to act once the Censors had exhausted all of the
available means of contact, I'd have been derelict in *my* duties.

I'm not prepared to charge Noricus with treason, since among other things we
have no mention of treason in our laws. We do, however, have mention of
dereliction of duty by magistrates. I think it's reasonable to consider
lack of contact for a prolonged interval to be conclusive evidence of
dereliction. I don't know if the dereliction is deliberate or forced, but
I do know that Praetor Noricus is missing, and has been missing, since
March 9th.

> If that is the case then lets bring Noricus up on treason charges

Find me a basis in our laws for a charge of treason, and I'll consider it.

> But to vote a curule magistrate out of office, while they keep their
> Imperium is NOT the solution to this most serious problem.

Are you being willfully obtuse Tribune? The Comitia Centuriata can not
remove Imperium. No assembly that either a Consul or a Tribune can call
is empowered to do that. If the Comitia Curiata chooses to remove Imperium
from Noricus, that's their decision. It'd be the reasonable decision if
he's found to be derelict, but it's not my call. Any time that the Comitia
Centuriata ever votes to declare an office vacant, it will be with the
understanding that Imperium still attaches to the person of the magistrate
unless and until the magistrate voluntarily resigns.

> If we can vote a curule magistrate out of office for being out of touch
> for two months then what is next?

An oath of office from his replacement, who I hope will serve the Republic
better.

> Furthermore, I did not want to bring this debate public, prefering it
> stay between the tribunes and yourself.

You have a curious way of showing it. Let me recap: My post which brought
about your most recent reply (to which I'm replying now) was in response to
your public post in which you made some claims that are incorrect. I couldn't
very well allow those claims to stand unanswered. Prior to that, I had in fact
communicated privately with you, in spite of the fact you made no effort to
contact me in private before announcing your intercessio. I am aware that
you are under certain time pressures that prevent you from answering me
quickly, but I have been patient. Thus far you've been the one to go public
first every time, ratcheting up the tension. I'm beginning to doubt your
good faith, and I'm wondering if someone is pulling your strings.

> We are a people of law.

Indeed we are. I've been acting in accordance with it.

Vale, et valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23491 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit

This is very harsh accusation, Consul.

Since you are beginning to doubt my good faith, what do you propose I possess? If not good faith then what? The intent to cause harm? Division? Problems? Wrong-doing? Malice? What? State you position, Consul.

Regarding someone pulling my strings? That too is a very harsh accusation. You have insinuated that I have less than good faith, and not you accuse me of being manipulated by someone else. Do you care to elaborate on this? Who are these "someone" that you refer to? If you are going to accuse me of being some sort of lackey you could at least present some names!

I take personal offense, Consul, to your belittling what I feel is my duty to the Republic. I was elected to do a job. If in the execution of my duties I become unpopular, and perhaps commit some sort of policical suicide then so be it. At least when my term as Tribune is over I will know that I exercised my duties to the best of my ability and according to my conscience.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis

In a message dated 5/18/2004 10:07:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> I'm beginning to doubt your good faith, and I'm wondering if someone is pulling your
> strings.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23492 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Salve Domitius Constantinus Fuscus et al

I agree with and support my esteemed colleague Gaius Modius Athanasius, in his exercise of intercessio against the convening of the Comitia Centuriata as presented by presented by Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus who as my colleague has stated is an honorable and excellent magistrate.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs






----- Original Message -----
From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:18 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] And what about the other tribunes?


Ave Omnes



About the use of the Intercessio, in this case, I get to (mostly, I hope
I'll have the time today to write about it) agree with Cordus (finally!).



Just a quick question: following the Lex Labiena de Intercessione:



"III. The issuance of intercessio shall place the item or action on hold,
preventing it from being in any way effective, for 72 hours from the time at
which the intercessio is announced.



IV. During this 72 hour period, other tribuni plebis may officially announce
their agreement or disagreement with the particular use of intercessio. "



So



Franciscus Apulus Caesar

Lucius Arminius Faustus

Julilla Sempronia Magna

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



Do you actually agree or disagree with that use of intercessio? That would
be interesting to know.



Vale



DCF



PF Constantinia

Aedilis Urbis

Curator of the <http://village.flashnet.it/~ua01823/Codex/> Codex Juris
Novae Romae Constantini





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23493 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-18
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete Quirites,

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit
>
> This is very harsh accusation, Consul.

I can be much harsher, Tribune. I continue to try to be polite.

> Since you are beginning to doubt my good faith, what do you propose I
> possess?

I propose nothing. Don't try being Jesuitical with me.

> If not good faith then what? The intent to cause harm? Division?
> Problems? Wrong-doing? Malice?

I don't yet know Tribune. A doubt is not the same as a conclusion. I
was telling you that you've given me cause to doubt your good faith.

> Regarding someone pulling my strings? That too is a very harsh accusation.

Why yes, it is.

> You have insinuated that I have less than good faith, and not you accuse
> me of being manipulated by someone else.

I'm just telling you what it looks like from where I observe, Tribune.
The amazing thing about online interaction is that you are pretty much
exactly as you present yourself. I gave you a list of ways in which you've
been presenting yourself, and then added that your actions have me
wondering about you.

> Do you care to elaborate on this?

I have no more evidence than what I've presented. Further speculation
would be fruitless at this point. If I have drawn incorrect inferences
based on your behaviors that I listed in my last post, I offer you my
full and complete apology. But as of right now your timing and your
methods have me suspecting your motives.

> I take personal offense, Consul, to your belittling what I feel is my
> duty to the Republic.

I'm not belittling your feelings about your duty to the Republic, and I'm
amazed that anyone with a seminary education could so misconstrue my
written text as to conclude that.

> I was elected to do a job.

As was I.

> If in the execution of my duties I become unpopular, and perhaps commit
> some sort of policical suicide then so be it.

That's a peril every elected official faces. You and me and all the rest
of us who hold office. I'm right with you in your stated conclusion.

> At least when my term as Tribune is over I will know that I exercised
> my duties to the best of my ability and according to my conscience.

The question, then, is whether you'd consider acting at the direction of
some person in the background to be within the scope of conscionable
action. Now isn't it? If you're independent just say so, and there'll
be an end to it.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23494 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying th
Salve Romans ( If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble saying this but what the heck)

Today, after reading some of the most endearing posts I have ever read on the main list and from some of Nova Roma's leading lights no less, I was wondering if I am the only citizen who would like to hold a a nice Roman feast for some of our long term citizens to thank them for all their hard work over the years ( I really mean this) and then escort them to the Tarpeian Rock and PUSH.



Tiberius Galerius Paulinus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23495 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for sayin
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Romans ( If we had an active praetor, I might get in
trouble saying this but what the heck)
>
> Today, after reading some of the most endearing posts I have ever
read on the main list and from some of Nova Roma's leading lights no
less, I was wondering if I am the only citizen who would like to hold
a a nice Roman feast for some of our long term citizens to thank them
for all their hard work over the years ( I really mean this) and
then escort them to the Tarpeian Rock and PUSH.
>
>
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

G. Equitius Cato T. Galerio Paulino quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salvete omnes,

Oooooooh boy Galerius...you're in trouble now! Just wait until the
Prae---oh, we haven't got one. Never mind.
Listen, kids, I've been out of the Lists because of complications in
the Real World, and I have to say that coming back and reading this
stuff is an extraordinary eye-opener. Is there a set of blinders on
some of our noble citizens? Let's look at this in clear, simple,
common-sense language.

Noricus has vamoosed. God willing, he is physically and mentally
well. We wish him the best. Fact is, though, he's NOT ACTING AS
PRAETOR. HE'S BEEN GONE TWO MONTHS! Wake up and smell the coffee:
he's gone. So is it more important to dither about what to do, or
take action and fill his vacant-in-fact post? Let him keep his
Imperium, for all the good it does him, wherever he is. Maybe he can
get a cup of coffee for free at the Starbucks on Lexington Ave. by
waving it around. Let him hang it on the wall, garnished with
twinkly lights for his friends and neighbors to admire. Whatever.

But let's please get NR back up and running on track; i.e., get an
active Praetor on the job.

valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23496 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
L C Sardonicus to Domitius Constantinus Fuscus, Greetings.

If you're going to re-post your comments on your discussion with one
of the Consuls, perhaps you could post the text of the actual
discussion. I would like to know if one of the Consuls actually
referred to Marcus Arminius Maior as "barely active", or if this is
just another of your fuscusities.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave
>
> Is he?
>
> As explained here : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-
Roma/message/23395
>
> It definitely doesn't look like (and it's now almost 2 weeks, btw).
>
> vale
>
> DCF
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
>
>
> Scrive AthanasiosofSpfd@a...:
>
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius Dianae Octaviae salutem dicit
> >
> > We have an active Praetor; Marcus Arminius Maior. He stated
that he was on
> > vacation. Now he is back, I assume he is willing to fullfill
his duties?
> >
> > Valete;
> >
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23497 From: Mr Sardonicus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
L C Sardonicus to Gaius Popillius Laenas, greetings.

I find it hard to believe that your article in the Eagle was
entirely without self-serving motivations. Serving the self is only
human and I won't hold it against you.

But now, you're denying that you went off in a huff. Did you
announce your resignation on the main list? If so, you went off in
a huff.

If not, and you really did leave without a stir and without a "look
at me...", did you consider the implications of your vacant post and
take steps to fill the gap?





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas"
<ksterne@b...> wrote:
> G. Popillius Laenas L. Cornelius Sardonicus S.P.D.
>
> >>At least I got your name right this time.<<
>
> GPL: Salve Luci Corneli,
>
> Hahah, I new you would - no worries.
>
>
> > In my opinion, even in the Eagle article you say nothing more
> > than, "I quit. People convinced me I was wrong to quit, so I
came
> > back." It still doesn't address the question at hand. 'If you
> were
> > to find yourself in the same circumstances as those which caused
> you
> > to resign last time, what would you do differently and what the
> > same?'
>
>
> GPL: It's probably not the best piece of writing in the world. I
> will try to summarize my thoughts:
>
> (1) Just about everyone here has thought of resigning at one time
> or another.
>
> (2) I experienced some extreme frustration and disappointment. I
> wasn't mad; I was completely disillusioned, and carried through
with
> resignation.
>
> (3) Once I had taken the step, I realized I was wrong. For me at
> least, I had to actually resign before I realized it was not the
> solution.
>
> To answer the question, "Would I do it again?" - NO, I learned a
> lesson. I would not resign; I would take consul with those
friends
> I mentioned.
>
> >Your assertion that you see things differently now is
> > overshadowed by the fact that you deny resigning due to an "off
in
> a
> > huff" waiting period that only exists to convenience people who
> tend
> > to go off in a huff.
>
>
> GPL: Well I really did not go off "in a huff" and then think
better
> of my decision after "cooling down". If you look at the archives
at
> the time of my resignation you will see that I did so without a
stir
> and without any "look at me, I taking my ball and going home"
antics.
>
> It was a deeply personal decision. I thought I had carefully
> considered the issues and made a thoughtful decision. The friends
I
> referred to made me see I was wrong.
>
> My situation with regard to resigning a magistracy WAS indeed
> different than a resignation that isn't rescinded. I changed my
> mind and returned to my duties to complete my term. Under our
laws
> I was able to return "without penalty". However, I fully
understand
> now, as I did then, that there is a penalty - a stain, and loss of
> dignitas, from following through on that action that most of us
have
> considered. I wrote the article in an attempt to help others
avoid
> that loss.
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23498 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Vacatio, Derelictio and the Constitution
Ave Omnes

In all the discussion about the elections (now officially vetoed, it seems), the
need of Praetores and so on, I think a “little” thing got missed: Vacatio
(Vacancy) and Derelictio (abandonment) are two enormously different things, and
you do not need one to have the other.

Now, what are those?

Vacatio is the situation where a position is unfilled. That may be either
because it has never been filled (and at the moment we do not care about it),
or because, in mid term, it became unfilled. In my opinion, that can happen
because:
a) the magistrate dies during the term
b) the magistrate resigns
c) the magistrate is removed from office

Derelictio, on the other hand, has nothing to do with the position being filled
or not, it has more to do with the fact that the position is attended or not.
To the extreme, a position can be derelicted even if a magistrate is publicly
active (by posting emails over the list all the time), but consistently and
continuously (a repeated but not continuous failure doesnÂ’t raise to
derelictio, at most to maladministration and abuse of power if made
purposefully) fails to attend the duties of the position.

This distinction is well present in the Constitution that for vacancy speaks of
OFFICE (“Should an office in mid-term become vacant and suitable candidates are
at hand, an election shall be held in the appropriate comitia to elect a
successor to serve out the remainder of the term within thirty days of the
vacancy.”), while for derelictio turns to MAGISTRATES (“Should one of the
ordinarii be found to be derelict in his duties, that magistrate may be removed
by a law originating in the comitia that elected him.”). Practically speaking,
an office could be filled, yet the duties derelicted, which is why, in this
case, the Constitution provides for a safety exit, the removal of the
magistrate.

Now, while it is true that no law states how a magistrate can be removed from
office so to produce a Vacatio, on the other side it is absolutely unimportant
of the Office of Noricus is vacant or not as it is obvious that he is derelict
in his duties and in fact:

a) The Censor Quintilianus has certified the fact that Noricus has not been in
touch, despite all efforts spent in order to find him, for months and that
means that he couldnÂ’t attend his duties.
b) A Consul has subscribed that statement, certified as well that Noricus has
not been in touch and that means he neglected his duties
c) Several other cives, who had some form of RL contact with him, couldnÂ’t get
in touch with him, therefore certifying themselves the fact heÂ’s not in touch
and that means heÂ’s not attending his duties.
d) A citizen (me), testified that he submitted a petitio actionis to him and
couldnÂ’t get any answer about it, which means Noricus neglected his duties.

To be noted that the Constitution doesnÂ’t give any importance to the subjective
reasons of the magistrate to derelict its duties. For Constitution the only
important thing is the derelictio of the duties, while if it has happened out
of a willing decision of the magistrate or out of an incident has no weight
whatsoever, because all what the Constitution cares about is not the well being
of the magistrate or his reasons, but that the body of NR can continue to
function.

To function. I do use this verb intentionally.

It could be in fact said that the Constitution states “Should one of the
ordinarii be found to be derelict in his duties, that magistrate may be removed
by a law originating in the comitia that elected him.”, yet doesn’t state how
the magistrate shall be found so. Now, letÂ’s consider this: the fact a
magistrate is derelicting his duties (which in this case, I hope, is not
contested) is defenitly having as a result the fact that NR is not functioning
as the Constitution mandates it to. Is one of the other magistrates of NR
entitled to do something about it?

Indeed yes, the Consules: The Consules have the power “To issue those edicta
(edicts) necessary to engage in those tasks which advance the mission and
function of Nova Roma (such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as
others)”. Now, the convening of the Comitia to replace a magistrate derelicting
his duties is obviously a task advancing the mission and the function of Nova
Roma, as a Nova Roma with a not working magistrate, paralyzing part of its
life, cannot work properly towards its goals. To engage in such a task it is
necessary that the magistrate is to be found derelicting his duties and
therefore the Consul can issue a decree to such effect (possibly, but not
necessarily, having consulted with the Censores and having collected all the
necessary evidences).

Now, the veto issued by Athanasios, which, in my opinion, wasnÂ’t too clear in
his wording (and unfortunately he refused to explain it at Cornelia StraboÂ’s
request), seems to suggest the Comitia would act unconstitutionally because it
would remove a magistrate without the position being vacant. Now, as I hope I
demonstrated, Vacatio and Derelictio are different things. Actually, the
provisions about Derelictio are in place exactly for the case where the
position is not vacant (otherwise you could have an election without having the
comitia issuing a lex removing the magistrate), but when it is not vacant but
unattended.

So, I think we come to the point: Either NoricusÂ’ office is vacant, and then you
can have an election right away, or Noricus is neglecting his duties (and that
has to be proved and I definitely think it has been over-proved by now) and
then, having it been made official (“found”) in the proper way (and I hope I
demonstrated that a consular edict is fit for the task) , it is absolutely
legal to convene the Comitia to issue a lex to remove him and it is against the
spirit of the Constitution (even if not unconstitutional by itself) to forbid
it. Or someone is ready to come forward and affirm, in all conscience and good
faith, that the office of praetor is filled and its duties not derelicted?

I think that the tribunes, by impeding the comitia, have legally (and probably
in good faith, mind you) performed an act against the Constitution and produced
to NR a huge damage, forcing it to sit still without one of the most important
offices being attended at all. Note that the *at all* is important. as said
before, if the magistrate would attend to his duties partially, it would be a
case of maladministration, but not of derelictionÂ… but here the duties are not
being attended, I shall repeat it, *at all*. Athanasios asked in his
intercessio mail “We all expect our magistrates to perform their duties, but is
it mandated?”. The answer (I disagree with you about it, Cordus) is yes. It is
not mandated that they will perform their duties *well*, but that they shall
perform it is mandate by the Constitution “Praetor. Two praetors shall be
elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve a term lasting one year. They shall
have the following honors, powers, and obligations:”… OBLIGATIONS, not tasks. “
derelict in his duties”.. DUTIES, not faculties. And that can be said for all
the other magistrates.

Vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23499 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salve Marinus,

Regarding your email below to Tribune G Modius.

Since at least 2 other Tribunes agree with the intercessio, then I think that if you want to
insinuate that G Modius is having his stringsd pulled and noit acting in good faith then you ahve
to also insinuate the same thing about his two colleagues that supported him...

Don't forget that without the majority of Tribunes supporting an intercessio (which G Modius has
this support) his email declaring intercessio against this election would be just that: another
email.

My opinion? We have a good team of Tribunes this year and they discuss issues first and then make
their opinions, as in this case.

Vale,
Diana

--- Bill Gawne <gawne@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Salvete Quirites,

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit
>
> This is very harsh accusation, Consul.

I can be much harsher, Tribune. I continue to try to be polite.

> Since you are beginning to doubt my good faith, what do you propose I
> possess?

I propose nothing. Don't try being Jesuitical with me.

> If not good faith then what? The intent to cause harm? Division?
> Problems? Wrong-doing? Malice?

I don't yet know Tribune. A doubt is not the same as a conclusion. I
was telling you that you've given me cause to doubt your good faith.

> Regarding someone pulling my strings? That too is a very harsh accusation.

Why yes, it is.

> You have insinuated that I have less than good faith, and not you accuse
> me of being manipulated by someone else.

I'm just telling you what it looks like from where I observe, Tribune.
The amazing thing about online interaction is that you are pretty much
exactly as you present yourself. I gave you a list of ways in which you've
been presenting yourself, and then added that your actions have me
wondering about you.

> Do you care to elaborate on this?

I have no more evidence than what I've presented. Further speculation
would be fruitless at this point. If I have drawn incorrect inferences
based on your behaviors that I listed in my last post, I offer you my
full and complete apology. But as of right now your timing and your
methods have me suspecting your motives.

> I take personal offense, Consul, to your belittling what I feel is my
> duty to the Republic.

I'm not belittling your feelings about your duty to the Republic, and I'm
amazed that anyone with a seminary education could so misconstrue my
written text as to conclude that.

> I was elected to do a job.

As was I.

> If in the execution of my duties I become unpopular, and perhaps commit
> some sort of policical suicide then so be it.

That's a peril every elected official faces. You and me and all the rest
of us who hold office. I'm right with you in your stated conclusion.

> At least when my term as Tribune is over I will know that I exercised
> my duties to the best of my ability and according to my conscience.

The question, then, is whether you'd consider acting at the direction of
some person in the background to be within the scope of conscionable
action. Now isn't it? If you're independent just say so, and there'll
be an end to it.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23500 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for sayin
> Salve Romans ( If we had an active praetor, I might get in
trouble saying this but what the heck)

Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta was put on moderation for saying something not
dissimilar, without any Praetors involved - I can't think of any
reason, in principle, why the same might not happen to you. And I
assume putting you on moderated status is all an active Praetor would
be able to do anyway, so I don't see as it makes much difference.

Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23501 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

>Oooooooh boy Galerius...you're in trouble now! Just wait until the
>Prae---oh, we haven't got one. Never mind.
>Listen, kids, I've been out of the Lists because of complications in
>the Real World, and I have to say that coming back and reading this
>stuff is an extraordinary eye-opener. Is there a set of blinders on
>some of our noble citizens? Let's look at this in clear, simple,
>common-sense language.
>
>Noricus has vamoosed. God willing, he is physically and mentally
>well. We wish him the best. Fact is, though, he's NOT ACTING AS
>PRAETOR. HE'S BEEN GONE TWO MONTHS! Wake up and smell the coffee:
>he's gone. So is it more important to dither about what to do, or
>take action and fill his vacant-in-fact post? Let him keep his
>Imperium, for all the good it does him, wherever he is. Maybe he can
>get a cup of coffee for free at the Starbucks on Lexington Ave. by
>waving it around. Let him hang it on the wall, garnished with
>twinkly lights for his friends and neighbors to admire. Whatever.
>
>But let's please get NR back up and running on track; i.e., get an
>active Praetor on the job.
>

We have an active praetor, M. Arminius Maior, who was merely out of town
for a week. I don't know if you've ever been in the military and can
understand this, but...

There are wars on in several places in the world. I don't know if
Noricus is subject to military service, but Austria has humanitarian
missions in several of those places where people are shooting at people.
If he's there or in hospital because some ripe bastard let a round lose
at him while he was trying to help people, I'd feel like a pluperfect
shit for deposing him while he was serving his country. Austria isn't
bloody Saturn. Is there no one the censors can depute to actually go to
his residence and determine whether he is still alive, for the Gods'
sake? We can live with an excellent praetor in Maior until a definitive
determination can be made.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23502 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: ante diem XIV Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem XIV Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem XIII Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23503 From: a_cato2002 Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Good To Have You Back Pater Patriae
Salve Pater Patriae et Omnes:
A sincere welcome back to Flavius Vedius Germanicus Pater
Patriae. To once again have both founding fathers with us is a
blessing from the Gods. I hope that many more welcoming messages
flow into our list.
Welcome home Pater Patriae.

Valete et Pax Deorum

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23504 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - VII - Lex
Articles on Roman Government - VII - Lex

(Observe in the text how even on early time the Comitia Populi
Tributa and the Comitia Plebis Tributa were almost merged... very
interesting)

(Observe also the recognition of the Comitia Calata/Curiata were
called Lex Curiata... very interesting)

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

LEX
LEX This term indicates generally a rule of law binding universally
on the citizens of a given state: Lex est commune praeceptum, virorum
prudentium consultum, delictorum coercitio, communis reipublicae
sponsio (Dig. 1, 3, 1); Legis virtus est haec, imperare, vetare,
permittere, punire (ib. 7). In the works of the Roman writers and
jurists it is used to denote an enactment of any body (or even
individual) constitutionally empowered to legislate, but more
properly it is used only of the enactments of the Comitia Centuriata.
Definitions of lex will be found in Cicero, de Leg. i. 6 (cf. ii.
16); in Aulus Gellius, x. 20 (by the jurist Capito); in Gaius, i. 3
(adopted in Justinian's Institutes, i. 2, 4); and in Dig. 1, 3, 1 (by
Papinian).

The earliest leges of which we read were those made in the Comitia
Curiata (whence they are called Leges Curiatæ), which till the
reforms of Servius Tullius was the only legislative body at Rome.
Some of these--the so-called leges regiae--were said to have been
enacted by the Comitia on the motion of Romulus, as well as of the
kings who succeeded him (Dig. 1, 2, 2, 2). Dionysius says (iii. 36)
that a collection of these leges regiae was made towards the end of
the regal period by one Sextus Papirius, a commentary on which,
written in the time of Julius Caesar by Granius Flaccus, is quoted in
Dig. 50, 16, 144; but it is improbable that they were anything more
than formal restatements of customary law already binding, and the
fact that Sextus Papirius was (according to Dionysius) a pontifex
suggests that they may have been only of sacerdotal import. (Some of
their substance has been collected in a fragmentary form by earlier
writers, and there is an essay on the subject by H. E. Dirksen:
Versuche zur Kritik und Auslegung, Leipzig, 1823). It may indeed be
doubted whether any large proportion of the enactments of the Comitia
Curiata were genuine laws, though the fifty leges of Servius
mentioned by Dionysius (iv. 13) seem to have made some general
changes; at any rate it is certain that after the establishment of
the Comitia Centuriata by Servius Tullius the assembly of the Curiae,
as a legislative body, fell almost entirely into disuse. We read of
its conferring the imperium on the magistrates, sanctioning
testaments and adrogations, and confirming some of the resolutions of
the centuries which were held to require a religious sanction, and in
all these cases it acted by a resolution or lex, but the difference
between such a lex and a true law is too obvious to need any further
exposition. And though even under Augustus a shadow of the old
constitution was preserved in the formal bestowal of the imperium by
a Lex Curiata only, the assembly of the Curiae had ceased even before
Cicero's time to consist of the old patricians: they were merely
represented by thirty lictors.

In the sense of a genuine enactment, establishing a rule of law, lex
denotes the legislation of the Comitia Centuriata, in which the law
was proposed (rogabatur) by a magistrate of senatorial rank, usually
by one or both of the consuls for the year (Inst. i. 2, 4). Such
leges were also called populiscita (Festus, s. v. Scitum Pop.).

The resolutions of the Comitia Tributa, whose origin was almost
contemporaneous with that of the centurial assembly, had not at first
the force of law: they seem to have been regarded merely as
expressions of plebeian opinion, by which the patricians gauged the
temper of the political opposition, and were guided to the line of
policy which party exigencies rendered expedient. They were known as
plebeiscita because the Comitia Tributa was at first attended only by
members of the plebs, though every Roman was in fact enrolled in a
tribe, and entitled to attend. When the tribunate of the plebs was
instituted (circ. B.C. 494), a means was provided by which the
resolutions of the tribes might become law. The tribunes were
permitted to appear at the threshold of the building where the senate
deliberated, and lay before it the proposals of the order which they
represented: if approved, these proposals could then be referred in
the ordinary way to the Comitia Centuriata, and thereby become
genuine enactments of the sovereign populus (Val. Max. ii. 2, 7).
After the enactment of the Lex Horatia Valeria (B.C. 449) the
patricians seem to have begun to take part in the business of the
Comitia Tributa, and it was perhaps provided by the same statute that
plebiscita which related to matters of purely private law should have
binding force without confirmation by the centuries. This exemption
was apparently extended to all plebiscita by the first of the Leges
Publiliae, B.C. 339 (Liv. viii. 12; Gellius, xv. 27), and finally a
Lex Hortensia (B.C. 287) dispensed with the requirement of senatorial
sanction to plebiscita. By this last change they were placed on a
footing of complete equality with leges passed in the Comitia
Centuriata (Dig. 2, 14, 7, 7; Gaius, i. 3; Inst. i. 2, 4): as the
latter were proposed to the centuries by a senatorial magistrate, so
they were submitted to the tribes by a tribune: leges related in the
main to administrative and constitutional matters, plebiscita to
matters of private law. The result of the equal legislative authority
of the two comitia was that plebiscita came not uncommonly to be
called leges, lex becoming a generic term (Dig. 1, 3, 32, 1), to
which was sometimes added the specific designation, as lex
plebeivescitum, lex sive plebiscitum est (e. g. the Tabula
Heracleensis, Savigny, Zeitschrift, &c. vol. ix. p. 355). Cicero, in
his enumeration of the sources of Roman law (Top. 5), does not
mention plebiscita, which he undoubtedly included under leges: among
the so-called leges which in fact were plebiscita are the Lex Aquilia
(Cic. pro Tullio, 8, 11; Dig. 9, 2, 1, 1), the Lex Canuleia, Lex
Rubria, &c. [p. 33]

The term rogatio means any measure proposed (bill, projet de loi) to
the legislative body, whether on its enactment it would technically
be a lex or a plebiscitum: hence the expressions populum rogare (Cic.
Phil. i. 1. 0, 26), plebem rogare (de Leg. iii. 3, 9), legem rogare
(de Republ. iii. 10, 17; Phil. ii. 29, 72; Dig. 9, 2, 1, 1), and, by
analogy, magistratum rogare, to offer a magistrate for election to
the people (Liv. iii. 65, vi. 42; Cic. ad Att. ix. 1. 5, 2, &c.;
Sallust, Jug. 29: cf. Festus, s. v. Rogatio). The form of such
rogation (in the case of an adrogation effected before the Comitia
Curiata) is given by Gellius, v. 19, 5, 9: Velitis jubeatis, uti L.
Valerius L. Titio tam jure legeque filius siet, quamsi ex eo patre
matreque familias ejus natus esset, utique ei vitae necisque in eum
potestas siet, uti patri endo filio est, haec ita uti dixi, ita vos
quirites rogo. Assent to the proposal was expressed in the form uti
rogas (which explains the term sponsio in the definition of lex above
from Dig. 1, 3, 1); rejection by the verb antiquo (Liv. iv. 58, v.
30, 55, &c.; Cic. de Off. ii. 2. 1, 73; ad Att. i. 13; de Leg. iii.
17, 38). The measures submitted were not unfrequently called
rogationes even after their definite enactment as leges or
plebiscita; and in Dig. 35, 2, 1, pr., an enacted statute is termed
lex rogata. Promulgare legem denotes the publication of its terms for
the public information (see LEX CAECILIA DIDIA inf.), such
publication being usually followed by contiones or meetings in which
the bill was explained and recommended to the people by its proposer
or supporters (suasores): this promulgation and informal discussion
is expressed by the phrase ferre legem as contrasted with rogare,
which is confined to the solemn submission of the measure to the
Comitia for acceptance or refusal: the general term used for
acceptance is rogationem accipere. Legem perferre is to carry a
rogatio, to convert it into a lex (Cic. Cornel. fragm. ap. Ascon.;
Liv. xxxiii. 46). Other terms familiarly used in connexion with leges
are explained by Ulpian (Reg. 1, 3): Lex aut rogatur, id est fertur:
aut abrogatur, id est, prior lex tollitur: aut derogatur, id est,
pars primae legis tollitur: aut subrogatur, id est, adjicitur aliquid
primae legi: aut obrogatur, id est, mutatur aliquid ex prima lege.

By Festus rogatio is described as equivalent to what is otherwise
called privilegium: a command of the populus relating to one or more
persons, but not to all persons, or relating to one or more things,
but not to all: cf. Dig. 50, 17, 196. Privilegia had been forbidden
by the Twelve Tables (Cic. de Leg. iii. 1. 9, 44; pro Domo, 17, 43),
but in the sense of statutes in favour of or directed against
individuals they are common; e. g. the Lex Centuriata by which Cicero
was recalled from exile: Non sunt generalia jussa, ... sed de
singulis concepta, quocirca privilegia vocari debent, quia veteres
priva dixerunt quae nos singula dicimus (Gellius, x. 20, 4). The term
is generally used by Cicero in the unfavourable sense (pro Domo, 17,
43; pro Sestio, 30, 65; Brut. 23, 89), and from the language in pro
Domo, 11, 28, it may be inferred that privilegia were not considered
leges proper: cf. Ulpian in Dig. 1, 3, 8: Jura non in singulas
personas, sed generaliter constituuntur. In the Corpus juris
privilegium is used generally to denote a jus singulare or privilege
conferred on classes by law: cf. Dig. 1, 3, 16; 9, 2, 51, 2; 1, 3, 14
and 15: and see Savigny, System, i. p. 61.

Of the form and style of Roman legislation we can judge to some
extent from the fragments which survive. The Romans seem to have
always adhered to the old expressions, and to have used few
superfluous words. Great care was taken with such clauses as were
intended to alter a previous lex (whence the standing clause de
impunitate si quid contra alias leges, ejus legis ergo, factum sit,
Cic. ad Att. iii. 2. 3), and to avoid all interference with prior
enactments when no change in them was contemplated (whence the common
formula ejus hac lege nihil rogatur, E. H. L. N. R. Lex Tab. Heracl.,
Lex Rubria, Lex Quinctia de aquaed.: cf. Valerius Probus; Cic. pro
Caec. 33, 95; pro Balbo, 14, 32): though the general principle seems
to have been that a subsequent repealed or modified a prior lex with
which it was inconsistent. The leges were often divided into chapters
(capita), e. g. the Lex Aquilia (Gaius, iii. 210, 215, 217): cf. also
the tablet of the Lex Rubria or de Gall. Cisalp. and Cic. ad Att. l.
c. In order to preserve a permanent record, the lex was engraved on
bronze (aes) and deposited in the Aerarium (Sueton. Jul. 28; Plut.
Cat. min. 17): but it also seems to have been usual to cut statutes
on tablets of oak (Dionys. iii. 36), which were whitened over and
then fixed in a public place for all citizens to read, though whether
they were so exposed for any great length of time is uncertain (Cic.
ad Att. xiv. 1. 2). The title of the lex was generally derived from
the gentile name of the magistrate who proposed it, and sometimes
from those of both the consuls or praetors (e. g. Lex Aelia Sentia,
Junia Norbana, Papia Poppaea, &c.): and it was sometimes further
described by reference to the topic to which it related (e. g. Lex
Cincia de donis et muneribus, Lex Furia de sponsu, Lex Furia
testamentaria, Lex Julia municipalis, &c.). Leges which related to a
common subject were often designated by a collective name, as Leges
agrariae, judiciariae, sumptuariae, &c. When a lex comprised very
various provisions, relating to matters essentially different, it was
called Lex Satura.

The terms in which a statute was expressed were fixed by the
proposer, though he would usually be assisted by others who possessed
the requisite familiarity with technical language: it was proposed to
the Comitia for acceptance or rejection in its entirety, there being
no discussion of or alteration in its clauses, which indeed in such
an assembly would have been injurious, if not impossible. One
important part of the lex was its sanctio--i.e. that part of it which
provided a penalty for, or declared what should be the effect of, its
infraction (Inst. ii. 1, 10; Auct. ad Herenn. ii. 10; Cic. de Invent.
ii. 4. 9, 146; Papinian in Dig. 48, 19, 41). If the sanctio declared
that the act against which the statute was directed should be void,
the lex was said to be perfecta; if there was no such provision, it
was imperfecta (e.g. the Lex Cincia): and if an act was merely
penalised, but not declared void, the lex is said by Ulpian (Reg. 1,
2) to be called minus quam perfecta (e. g. the Leges Furiae [p. 34]
testamentaria and de sponsu): cf. Savigny, System, iv. p. 549 sq.

The number of leges was largely increased towards the end of the
republican period (Tac. Ann. iii. 25-28), and Julius Caesar is said
to have contemplated a revision of the whole of them. Augustus, and
perhaps his immediate successors, was careful to conduct his
legislation under republican forms, though it may be doubted whether
any statute was enacted after the fall of the Republic except on the
initiative of the emperor, or at any rate without his sanction
express or implied. The Comitia assembled and gave the force of law
to the proposals submitted to them for some time after the
constitution had lost all trace of real freedom (Tac. Ann. i. 15
relates to the election of magistrates, not to legislation); and most
of the Leges Juliae, a Lex Visellia, an agrarian law of Caligula, and
a law of Claudius (Gaius, i. 157, 171) were enacted in the ordinary
way. The last statute which we know to have been passed in this
manner is a lex agraria of the time of Nerva (A.D. 96-98), mentioned
in Dig. 47, 21, 3, 1. Gaius speaks of the Comitia as in theory still
a source of law ( lex est, quod populus jubet atque constituit,
plebiscitum, quod plebs jubet atque constituit, i. 3: cf. Inst. i. 2,
4, in which the present tense has been turned into the past): but it
is improbable that they had been called upon to discharge legislative
functions since A.D. 100.

For some reigns after that of Augustus legislation was most
ordinarily conducted by resolutions of the senate [SENATUSCONSULTUM],
into which the proposed law was introduced by a consul, or very often
by an oration of the emperor [CONSTITUTIONES]. Originally
senatusconsulta did not acquire the force of law until they had been
confirmed by the Comitia, in which case they were leges proper: but
during the last half-century of the Republic the senate asserted and
established an independent right of legislation. Hence, when genuine
statutes ceased to be enacted with any frequency, senatusconsulta
came to be actually called leges. Justinian says (Inst. i. 2, 5), Cum
auctus esset populus Romanus in eum modum ut difficile esset in unum
eum convocari legis sanciendae causa, aequum visum est senatum vice
populi consuli: a passage based on similar language of Pomponius in
Dig. 1, 2, 2, 9. The name comitia came to be commonly given to the
sittings of the senate (Tac. Ann. i. 15; Capitol. Max. 10). Gaius
says (i. 4) that a senatusconsultum vicem legis obtinet, and in i. 85
he terms a senatusconsult of Claudius a lex: for similar passages cf.
Dig. 14, 6, 9, 4; ib. 14; 48, 16, 10. No senatusconsulta occur after
the reign of Septimius Severus (A.D. 193-211). The constitutions of
the emperors, which succeeded senatusconsulta as the ordinary mode of
legislation, were also called leges (e.g. Lex Anastasiana, Cod. 4,
35, 22): cf. Inst. i. 2, 6, and Dig. 1, 4, 1: Quodcunque Imperator
statuit, legem esse constat. [See CONSTITUTIONES]

A less common and proper signification of lex, quite distinct from
that of a general rule of law, is that in which it denotes the
conditions under which a thing is to be done, or under which parties
contract with one another: e. g. lex commissoria [COMMISSORIA]; leges
venditionis or emptionis, conditions of sale, Dig. 18, 1, 40 (which
explains why Cicero speaks of Marcus Manilius' work on sales as
Manilianas venalium vendendorum leges, de Orat. i. 58, 246); legem
traditioni dicere, Dig. 8, 4, 17, 3; lex donationis, Dig. 1, 5, 22,
Accordingly we find the expression leges censoriae to express the
conditions on which the censors let the public property or taxes to
farm, which were perhaps embodied in certain standing regulations
(Fragm. de jure fisci, § 18; Dig. 50, 16, 203). Similarly the term is
used of conditions imposed on a testamentary disposition: legatario
legem dicere, Dig. 40, 5; 40, 1; cf. Dig. 32, 22, pr. Not
unfrequently lex denotes merely the statute of the Twelve Tables (e.
g. Dig. 2, 14, 7, 14; 8, 3, 13; 41, 3, 3, &c.), and in one passage it
means nothing more than the nature or character of a thing: lex danda
operi talis, ne quid noceat vicinis, Dig. 39, 2, 15, 10. The extant
authorities for Roman leges are inscriptions and the works of the
classical writers and jurists. The Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum of
Mommsen of course comprises all extant records of authentic
legislation, along with a vast number of other inscriptions; smaller
collections, relating more particularly to leges, are those of
Göttling (Römische Urkunden auf Erz und Stein, Halle, 1845) and Zell
(Delectus inscriptionum cum monumentis legalibus fere omnibus): cf.
also Rudorff, Römische Rechtsgeschichte, i. § § 81-86. The best
information as to the fragmentary citations from or references to
leges which are found scattered about in non-juristic Latin writers
is to be obtained from Haubold's Institutiones juris Romani
litterariae, vol. i. pp. 241-44, 297-349 (Leipzig, 1809): of the
imperial legislation (independently of the Codes which have come down
to us) there is a very full collection by Haenel, Corpus legum, &c.
Fasc. i. (Leipzig, 1857). But perhaps the most useful modern
collection to the classical student is that of Orelli (vol. viii. of
his edition of Cicero) entitled Index legum Romanarum quarum apud
Ciceronem ejusque Scholiastas, item apud Livium, Velleium Paterculum,
A. Gellium nominatim mentio fit.

A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD.
William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray.
1890.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23505 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit

I act on my own free will and accord, and upon my many oaths of office I proclaim that my actions are my own and the actions of no other.

-- Gaius Modius Athanasius, Tribunus Plebis

In a message dated 5/18/2004 10:57:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> If you're independent just say so, and there'll
> be an end to it.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23506 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: INTERCESSIO: Convening of the Comitia Centuriata
Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Modi,

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit
>
> I act on my own free will and accord, and upon my many oaths of
> office I proclaim that my actions are my own and the actions of no other.

Thank you for that clear and unambiguous statement. I apologise most
sincerely for doubting you.

Vale,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23507 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Questions for praetorian candidates
G. Popillius Laenas L. Cornelius Sardonicus S.P.D.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Sardonicus" <sardonicus_@h...>
wrote:
> I find it hard to believe that your article in the Eagle was
> entirely without self-serving motivations. Serving the self is
only
> human and I won't hold it against you.


GPL: Well I was asked to write it, so I did. And, it was from the
heart. If you are unable to believe that so be it.

Also it was written well before the prospect of this election / non-
election, so I'm not sure what self-serving benefit you believe I
was expecting.

> But now, you're denying that you went off in a huff. Did you
> announce your resignation on the main list? If so, you went off
in
> a huff.

I announced my resignation on the ML because I thought that was the
right thing to do. I could not expect the Censores to contact
everyone who might have an interest or need to know regarding my
leaving.

You can read the text. Again, if you read it and believe that I
was "in a huff" so be it. Anyone else who is interested (and I
suspect such a group is rapidly dwindling) they can read it for
themselves and form their own consclusions.

> If not, and you really did leave without a stir and without
a "look
> at me...", did you consider the implications of your vacant post
and
> take steps to fill the gap?

No, not sufficiently at the time of the resignation, that was wrong,
and I would not do it again. However, I corrected this by returning
within the alloted time. I admit I made a mistake, and I did the
best I could to correct it.

Now, I'm afraid I have to consider this question answered.

With all respect.

Vale,

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23508 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Call - The Comitia Populi and Comitia Plebis Tributa are convened
Salvete, quirites,

L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis ex officio

Citizens, using the Tribunicia Potestas, it is a immense pleasure for me call the Comitia Populi Tributa and the Comitia Plebis Tributa to voting.

According to Lex Moravia, excellent augur G. Modius Athanasius took the two auspices for the two Comitias and the gods agreed with the dates and the submitting of the proposals to the will of the roman people.

A. COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBUTA

Contio begins 25 Mai 00:01 Roma time
Contio finishes 26 Mai 23:59 Roma time
Voting begins 27 Mai 00:01 Roma time
Voting finishes 31 Mai 23:59 Roma time

The Comitia was called to fill one vacancy for the office of Plebeian Aedile, since citizen Callidius Gracchus was unreacheable, even by censores and his propraetor, and never took the oath of the office. So, the tribuni considered the office and sacrosainctness were never taken.

The following candidates showed interest on the office.

I - Lucius Suetonius Nerva - citizen since 05/02/2003
II - Aelius Solaris Marullinus - citizen since 25/06/2002

From now, I desire them sucess and wiseness.

The plebeians are called to vote and show their will.
May our patronesses Ceres and Diana bless us all.



B. COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA

According to Lex Salicia, due to the proportion of the ordos, using my Tribunicia Potestas, I call the Comitia Populi Tributa to vote proposals of the interest of the roman people.

Since excellent consul G. Equitius Marinus has already called the Comitia Populi to voting using his Imperium, the Tribunicia Potestas, having received the favourable auspices from augur G. Modius Athanasius, includes the following law proposals to be added to the Comitia Populi agenda.

The agenda remains the same as issued by the consul, except the timing of the Contio:

19 Mai (dies comitialis) Contio of the following law proposals begans since the issuing of this calling on Nova Roma Main List.
20 Mai (dies comitialis)
21 Mai (nefastus publicus) public religious festival, no debate
22 Mai (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
23 Mai (nefastus publicus) public religious festival, no debate
24 Mai (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
25 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
26 Mai (dies comitialis)
27 Mai (dies comitialis)
28 Mai (dies comitialis)
29 Mai (dies comitialis)
30 Mai (dies comitialis)
31 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting ends 18:00 Roma time


The following proposals will be submitted to the will of the roman people, the text are separated by a series of underlines and the title ´Proposal´:

__________________
PROPOSAL I
LEX ARMINIA DE OFFICIIS AEDILIUM PLEBIS

This law is intendend to bring Nova Roma closer to the Ancient Way, and contribute to the grow of the Res Publica throught more organization of its Plebeian Class.

This law enables the duties of the Plebeian Aediles into the scope of the Plebeian Class. These are not the sole duties of the plebeian aediles, since Nova Roma Constitution or any law voted by the Comitia on this subject may give the plebeian aediles duties acting upon all Res Publica

1) To keep and manage any funds, equipments, buildings or properties of the Plebis, funds received by donation or fund raising, on the same way of any funds, equipments, buildings or properties assigned to the care of the Plebis by Nova Roma government.

1.1) - The questores assigned to the Plebeian Aediles, as assigned by NR Constitution, will have dedicated function to financial matters, and will answer to their aediles

1.2) - The plebeian aediles will answer to the Tribunes for the properties of the Plebis.

2) To organize and moderate the Comitia Plebis Tributa Forum.

3) To keep the archives of the Plebis, all tribunitian legislation, edicts of magistrates of the plebis (Tribunes, Plebeian Aediles). To work together with others magistrates to keep the correct versions (and its translations when available) of these documents on the Tabularium.

4) To Organize at least two big plebeian ludis: Ludi Cerealia and Ludi Plebeian

4.1) - The Plebeian Aediles are free to make the agenda of events the Ludi, or even changing the dates of beggining/ending or events as the needs they consider relevant.

4.2) - If both Plebeian Aediles feel unable to organize one of these games, they can ask for a Curule Aedile to organize the game. If neither Curule Aedile can organize the game, the game becomes resposability of the Tribunes.

4.3) - If both Plebeian Aediles are unreachable and the Ludi beggining approaches, the Tribunes need to reach an agreemente between themselves or Curule Aediles to make the Ludi happen. On no way these two Ludi cannot happen.

4.4) - The Plebeian Aediles will have the final responsibilty by the moral and dignitas of the ludi.

5) To organize the of Tribunes list of vetos or tribunitian intercessio on a subject. To provide it to the magistrates when asked.

6) To make the agenda of the Comitia Plebis Tributa Voting, as it is called for voting by the Tribunes.

6.1) - This is applied also to the Comitia Populi Tributa called by a Tribune, if it is called instead of the Comitia Plebis

7) To organize and be responsible by Plebis Events or Plebis Religio Cerimonies, providing to the structures that may be needed.

These responsabilities of this law becomes valid for the plebeian aediles elected after or at the same time of the aproval of this lex by the Comitia.

__________________
PROPOSAL II
LEX ARMINIA SENATORIA

This law is intendend to bring Nova Roma Res Publica closer to the Ancient Way, restore the aedilitiam equilibria, to contribute to the harvest of members for the Senate, and restore rights of the curule magistratures.

1) Any individual elected to the office of Plebeian Aedile may, at the discretion of the censors, be included in the album Senatorum six months after assuming office (assuming that the individual was not already a member of the Senate).

2) Curule Aediles, as curule magistrates, have the right to watch the Senate sessions and speak on them. However, an aedile can only vote if the individual is already a member of the Senate.

__________________
PROPOSAL III
LEX ARMINIA DE CURSO HONORUM

This lex is intended to bring Nova Roma closer in line with the ancient roman way, and allow better spreading of Nova Roma to all orbe.

a. A plebeian candidate needs at least six months on the Tribuneship, Quaestorship, Curatorship or Propraetorship to run for the aedilship of the plebis.

b. A current plebeian scriba of one of the current plebeian aediles can run for the aedilship without the exigences of paragraph a. of this lex if he proves he was at least six month scriba of his aedile

__________________
PROPOSAL IV
LEX ARMINIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM

Lex Arminia de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum is intended to bring Nova Roma closer to the Ancient Way.

Sub-Sections V.A, V.B and V.C of Lex Moravia de Svffragiis in Comitia Plebis Tribvta et ratione comitiorum Plebis Tributorum are hereby revoked and these dispositions are declared void of legal application.

All others sub-sections of section V continues valid as well as the rest of the Lex Moravia de Svffragiis in Comitia Plebis Tribvta et Ratione comitiorum Plebis Tributorum.

__________________
PROPOSAL V
LEX ARMINIA DE MINISTRIS PROVINCIALIBUS

This law applies to clarify a specific case on Lex Arminia de Edictibus.

1) Due to the changing of Potestas et Imperium, when there is a change of Propraetor or Proconsul on a province, all its provincial apparitores (like Scriba, Legatus, etc) are automatically dismissed of their duties. If The new propraetor ou proconsul desires to keep an previous apparitor, he must re-issue an edictum nominating them.

2) Confirming Lex Arminia de Edictibus, all provincial edicta are automatically revoked when the propraetor or proconsul changes and the new magistrate do not confirm them in his Imperium.

3) When the term of a Propraetor or Proconsul are by the Senate continued on a province, there is no need to re-issue the edicta of the previous year, they continue valid until the change of Propraetor or Proconsul or be revoked by the own magistrate issuer.


__________________

Therefore, the final agenda of the Comitia Populi Tributa shall be:

A. Election of a quaestor

B. Voting of six law proposals:
1. LEX EQVITIA DE CORRIGENDIS LEGVM ERRATIS
2. LEX ARMINIA DE OFFICIIS AEDILIUM PLEBIS
3. LEX ARMINIA SENATORIA
4. LEX ARMINIA DE CURSO HONORUM
5. LEX ARMINIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM
6. LEX ARMINIA DE MINISTRIS PROVINCIALIBUS


Again I thank the citizens by the attention, and may the Gods bless our Res Publica and its magistrates.



L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger - Fale com seus amigos online. Instale agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23509 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Gaius Popilius Laenas Flavius Vedius Germanicus S. P. D.

Welcome back Pater Patriae.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23510 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Salve Amice!

>G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
>Salve, Cato.
>Is there no one the censors can depute to actually go to
>his residence and determine whether he is still alive, for the Gods'
>sake?

Once again I say here on the main list that I have tried this (but
found no one) and many other things already. I still have a citizen
living in Austria looking into different possibilities. Now I have
tried people further from Noricus' hometown/-country, let's see what
they can find out. But soon I must say that I have reached the end of
the road. Maybe someone else has an idea? I have phoned him from
Sweden many times and I am prepared to do so again, but I need
another phone number. Anyone?

>We can live with an excellent praetor in Maior

I agree that Maior is excellent, but obviously he has some other
problem. I have phoned him in Brasil a few times and asked for mails.
But I haven't got any mails back. Something is wrong there too. I
will try to phone him tonght again.

> until a definitive
>determination can be made.

I think we can do that soon.

Please join me and pray for my friend and our Praetor Illustris
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus!

>Vale.
>
>Scaurus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23511 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

Salve Scaurus,

Yes, I am fully aware of what "war" means, and its attendant
complications. And I understand that there are two (2)
Praetorships. Obviously, however, the lack of one half of them has
had an effect on NR, and to the point where the machinery *seems* to
be grinding to a halt. To see citizens arguing over whether or not a
post has been left vacant due to the inactivity of a magistrate after
two months seems a little precious. Reading through the posts it
seems as though, for the past two months, every possible method has
been used to contact Noricus, both in the cyber-world and the real
one, to no avail. Thus, we are left with an empty magistracy. It
seems only realistic to declare it vacant, elect a new Praetor, and
get on with it. To dither about is a waste of time and energy, and
surprising in someone who feels so strongly about NR that they are
willing to threaten their resignation over the candidacy of a
specific citizen. And yes, it was a threat, your long post to the
contrary notwithstanding. An abundance of words does not cover their
meaning. In any case, it was *perceived* as a threat, and as we in
the real world understand it, perception is reality.

Consul Marinus was attempting to observe the niceties required to
fill the post left vacant by Noricus, and it seems as if the whole
purpose of this argument centers around the candidacy of Cornelia
Pompeia (my apologies if she is in fact no longer a Cornelius). In
ancient Rome, such niceties were not always observed.

If, God forbid, Noricus is in such a position, due to hostile action,
that he is incapable of being in contact with *anyone* in two months,
it is a terrible fact of living in the real world. That does not,
however, change the situation in NR.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> We have an active praetor, M. Arminius Maior, who was merely out of
town
> for a week. I don't know if you've ever been in the military and
can
> understand this, but...
>
> There are wars on in several places in the world. I don't know if
> Noricus is subject to military service, but Austria has
humanitarian
> missions in several of those places where people are shooting at
people.
> If he's there or in hospital because some ripe bastard let a round
lose
> at him while he was trying to help people, I'd feel like a
pluperfect
> shit for deposing him while he was serving his country. Austria
isn't
> bloody Saturn. Is there no one the censors can depute to actually
go to
> his residence and determine whether he is still alive, for the
Gods'
> sake? We can live with an excellent praetor in Maior until a
definitive
> determination can be made.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23512 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Comitia Centuriata Convened
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dixit

The intercessio of the Tribunes having been imposed, I ask the patience
of the Comitia as we seek a resolution. Please be patient, and remember
that due to the religious calendar our vote can not start until the 25th
of May at the earliest in any case. If we do find a way to have a vote,
I shall inform you all via a followup message to this one.

--
Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:

> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dixit
>
> In accordance with our laws, pullarius Gaius Iulius Scaurus has taken
> an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia
> Centuriata. The augury being favorable, I now convene the Comitia
> Centuriata for the purpose of deciding whether Praetor Gnaeus Octavius
> Noricus shall be vacated from office due to his lack of communication
> with us, and if so, to determine his successor.
>
> The Constitution of Nova Roma, section IV.A, says, in part:
>
> "Should an office in mid-term become vacant and suitable candidates are
> at hand, an election shall be held in the appropriate comitia to elect a
> successor to serve out the remainder of the term within thirty days of
> the vacancy. Should one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his
> duties, that magistrate may be removed by a law originating in the
> comitia that elected him."
>
> Since Praetor Gnaeus Octavius Noricus has not communicated with any
> citizen or magistrate of Nova Roma since 9 March or this year, it is my
> sad duty as your Consul to ask you to find him derelict in his duties.
> I hope that we will eventually find that Noricus' inaction was caused by
> circumstances beyond his control, but in the meantime we can not be
> without an active Praetor until the end of the year or whenever he
> returns to us.
>
> Therefore I present for your approval this lex:
>
> --- Begin text of Lex Equitia de Praetoris Octavius Noricus ---
>
> LEX EQVITIA DE PRAETORIS OCTAVIVS NORICVS
>
> I. Praetor Gnaeus Octavius Noricus, having been out of touch with any
> citizen or magistrate of Nova Roma since 9 Mar 2004, is hereby found to
> be unable to execute his duties as Praetor, and his office is vacated.
>
> II. An election to fill the vacant office of Praetor shall be held
> immediately, concurrent with the vote on this law.
>
> III. This lex shall become effective immediately upon passage by the
> Comitia Centuriata.
>
> --- End text of Lex Equitia de Praetoris Octavius Noricus ---
>
>
> Candidates for the vacated office of Praetor, assuming approval
> of the Lex Equitia de Praetoris Octavius Noricus:
>
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo -- date of citizenship 2000/01/16
> Gaius Popillius Laenas -- date of citizenship 2001/02/12
>
>
> The Centuria Praerogativa, which shall vote first, will be the IX Century.
>
> Schedule for the Contio and vote:
>
> 17 Mai (dies comitialis) Contio begins 21:00 Roma time
> 18 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 19 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 20 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 21 Mai (nefastus publicus) public religious festival, no debate
> 22 Mai (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
> 23 Mai (nefastus publicus) public religious festival, no debate
> 24 Mai (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
> 25 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
> 26 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 27 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 28 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 29 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 30 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 31 Mai (dies comitialis)
> 01 Iun (dies nefastus) No legal action or voting
> 02 Iun (dies fastus) legal action permitted, but no voting
> 03 Iun (dies comitialis)
> 04 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting ends 18:00 Roma time
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> Gn. Equitius Marinus
> Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23513 From: John Walzer Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Plebeian Aedile
Salvete Omnes:

As voting is about to commence (a.d. VI Kalendas Iun.), I would like to re-declare my candidacy for the office of
Plebeian Aedile and elaborate, briefly, on my reasons for seeking said post.

I, Lucius Suetonius Nerva, have been a citizen of Nova Roma since the Nones of February, A.U.C. MMDCCLVI.

I have been a Legate in the province of Mediatlantica, and wish to offer my services to Nova Roma as a candidate for the office of Plebeian Aedile. As I understand it, this office dates back to the dawn of the Republic, having come into being in A.U.C. CCLIX, when it's original occupants functioned as assistants to the Tribuni Plebis. Later, they managed the plebeian and Roman games.

I believe I could be of service to Nova Roma in this capacity. I have been in contact with the honorable Emilia Curia Finnica, and she was most gracious, as well as helpful, in describing the duties of a Plebeian Aedile, especially as regards the writing and publishing of edicta.

It is also my understanding that the office of Aedilies Plebis might benefit from additional research. Due to the fragmentary historical sources, the role of the Plebeian Aedile in antiquity has not yet been fully ascertained. I believe the next holder of the Aedileship has an obligation to determine more precisely what function(s) the office of Plebeian Aedile served in everyday Roman life. As currently constituted under the laws of Nova Roma (IV Magistrates), the Plebeian Aedile issues edicta for games and festivals and possesses the power to "pronounce 'intercessio' against those of lesser authority."

Like so much else about Nova Roma, said office and its functions are, I believe, a work in progress. And filling in the blank spots would be both a challenge and a privilege.

If elected, my first priority would be to not only fulfill the responsibilities of the office as it currently exists, but to research its history in an effort to determine how, if possible, it could more fully contribute to our common goal of making Nova Roma a living, thriving entity.

Thank you for considering my candidacy.

Valete Omnes.

Lucius Suetonius Nerva.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23514 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

>To dither about is a waste of time and energy, and
>surprising in someone who feels so strongly about NR that they are
>willing to threaten their resignation over the candidacy of a
>specific citizen. And yes, it was a threat, your long post to the
>contrary notwithstanding. An abundance of words does not cover their
>meaning. In any case, it was *perceived* as a threat, and as we in
>the real world understand it, perception is reality.
>

Frankly, Cato, it is the fact that people like you are citizens which
makes me despair of NR ever being anything more than a political
role-playing game for Roman wannabes. You are so far from understanding
what I am about that trying to explain it to you would be more difficult
than trying to explain colours to a blind man.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23515 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: AGRIPPINA: Fwd: Provincia
Salve Honorable Titus Cornelius Corvus!

One of my Scribae will take care of this.

Agrippina please acknowledge this on the Cohors list.

>X-Original-Recipient: christer.edling@...
>X-Authentication-Warning: webmail3.leeds.ac.uk: nobody set sender to
>gll3amw@... using -f
>Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:08:27 +0100
>From: "Alexander Manuel (Sasha) Ward" <gll3amw@...>
>To: censores@...
>Subject: Provincia
>Status:
>
>Salvete Censor!
>
>I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma, and have been put down as being
>in Nova Britannia Provincia, when I in fact live in BRITANNIA Provincia. Is
>there a way to rectify this? I believe it was my mistake originally and
>apologise therefore.
>
>Regards,
>
>Titus Cornelius Corvus
>Citizen Number 7177


--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23516 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Comments on Leges Arminias
Salve, citizens,

L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis,

I hope all of you are reading the ACTA DIURNA of today!

Yes, you will read too much before going to the cista!

Anyway, if anyone have some doubts and need a clarification about the
Leges Arminias were just proposed, you have two ways:

I - Reading the research base, message 23476 of this list. The whys
of all proposals (what a pretention!) are there.

II - If still you need to press the help button, you can write me
lafaustus@... asking. Or ask here.

We are on a level of NR that we really need to ´burn the eyes´ on the
books to bring NR closer to the Ancient. Because, if we have some
mistake on the compreension of the ancient dynamics, and bring that
for NR political system, we will teach Rome wrong. I myself see some
flaws on our institutions that makes a countless number of people
thinking wrong about the ancient. And even when you come ´this
source´ people do not believe. Yes, really!

It is a good signal, however. NR itself is beeing a authority on
Roman Studies.

It is a responsability, however. NR magistrates should go deep on
research, and bring to the people THE SOURCES for reforms and
proposals.

Proposing reforms are not a crime. A magistrate should not be
attacked by proposing.

The last word is always of the Comitia.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23517 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Salve Constantinus Fuscus et al

Even though I have stated publicly that I support the intercessio of the CC, you should note that the lex in question states:

"During this 72 hour period, other tribune plebis MAY officially announce their agreement or disagreement with the particular use of intercessio. "

MAY is a suggestion of what we can do, not a command that we must do, as "shall announce" would be.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs

----- Original Message -----
From: FAC
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:05 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: And what about the other tribunes?


Salve Constantinus Fuscus,

> Just a quick question: following the Lex Labiena de Intercessione:
>
> "III. The issuance of intercessio shall place the item or action
on hold,
> preventing it from being in any way effective, for 72 hours from
the time at
> which the intercessio is announced.
>
> IV. During this 72 hour period, other tribuni plebis may
officially announce
> their agreement or disagreement with the particular use of
intercessio. "
>
> So
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
>
> Lucius Arminius Faustus
>
> Julilla Sempronia Magna
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Do you actually agree or disagree with that use of intercessio?
That would
> be interesting to know.

The Costitution gives us 72 hours to announce our agreement or
disagreement. Illustrus Tribune Modius Athanasius announced his
interecessio 24 hours ago. We Tribunes have 48 hours to give our own
opinions. Leave us decide and think about ...

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Tribunus





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23518 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

Salve Scaurus,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> >To dither about is a waste of time and energy, and
> >surprising in someone who feels so strongly about NR that they are
> >willing to threaten their resignation over the candidacy of a
> >specific citizen. And yes, it was a threat, your long post to the
> >contrary notwithstanding. An abundance of words does not cover
their
> >meaning. In any case, it was *perceived* as a threat, and as we
in
> >the real world understand it, perception is reality.
> >
>
> Frankly, Cato, it is the fact that people like you are citizens
which
> makes me despair of NR ever being anything more than a political
> role-playing game for Roman wannabes. You are so far from
understanding
> what I am about that trying to explain it to you would be more
difficult
> than trying to explain colours to a blind man.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

Scaurus, could this not be considered an ad hominem attack? It is
not called for, unneccessary, and beneath what I would have thought
was the dignity of a pontiff. If what you "are about" means that you
refuse to live in a world wherein people, for all your displayed
knowledge and erudition, may disagree with you; or when they disagree
with you you morph from the scholar to the snarler, then you are
correct: I do not understand that. I have certainly shown you
respect, even in the heat of argument, both on the public Lists and
in private; I have publicly apologized or made more clear my
statements every single time you have called me on it; when I then
find your "I'm not making a threat" post disingenuous and say so
(even in passing), WHAM! out come the knives. It is people like
yourself, who find it easy to condescend and difficult to retract,
that are making things in NR more..."interesting".

As a passing thought, by the way, was it not I who got smacked around
on the List for daring to suggest that NR might become *more* than
just a private club for religio-practitioners? I somehow remember
getting scolded repeatedly for daring to suggest that NR might
actually encompass real life someday...

vale,

Cato


>
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23519 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - VIII - Intercessio
Articles on Roman Government - VIII - Intercessio


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

Intercessio
(1) The Latin term for the interference of a higher officer with some
public act on the part of one lower in rank--e. g. calling a meeting
of the commons. The tribune of the people could thus interfere with
the praetor, quaestor, and aedile, so that it was even open to the
tribunes of the people to refuse a triumph to a consul or a praetor.

(2) The quashing of an official act. As in (1), this might be issued
by a higher official against a lower one; and also by one colleague
against another--e. g. by tribune against tribune. It was necessary
that the intercessio should be made in person, and in general
immediately after the act in question. It was employed against
judicial decisions, administrative ordinances (solely on the appeal
of the person concerned); also against decrees of the Senate and
motions in the popular assembly. The later species of intercessio
early became a special right of the tribuni (q. v.).

(3) In general legal procedure, intercessio means the assumption by
one person of another's debt. To become an intercessor, he must incur
liability by entering into a contract or other similar transaction
with the other person's creditors. See Gaius, iii. 110-127, ed.
Poste.


Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23520 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: My 2 Cents
Salve!



Normally I lurk do to my lack of time to really get into any good discussions. However I enjoy reading this list very much and I hope my time issue will change very shortly. After reading all the posts, so far about our missing praetor and what to do about it I decided that I might offer a possible solution or compromise.



I am no expert in Roman law if what I am proposing is not within the bounds of the constitution I apologize in advance for my ignorance.



That being said, I think the honorable Consul Marinus might have given us the answer. Since the constitution mandates two praetors, but does not rule out there being more than two, could a special provision be made to carry out a special election of a third praetor until the next election where the third seat will be vacated and removed.



Also could someone please contact me about taxes?



May the Gods bless, honor and bring a long peaceful life to you all!



Marcus Traianus Valerius

genstraiana@...



------------------------------------------------------------
Gens Traiana Home Page
www.geocities.com/genstraiana

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23521 From: Julia Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Terra Sigillata Pieces for Sale
Salvete,
Just letting you know that I have some terra sigillata pieces
available for sale at a very reasonable price, in both red an black.
These are completely handmade, and are very close to actual pieces
(see uploaded file in FILES section:"Terra Sigillata". You can view
the wares at:
http://venetiancat.com
Iulia Cassia Vegetia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23522 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Assidui Citizens
Salvete Quirites,

As of today, we have 208 assidui citizens in Nova Roma. I've waited
until now to allow for slowness in the mails before reporting the number
to the populace.

Citizens who have not yet paid their tax for the current year are
reminded that they still may do so. Details of specific tax rates and
how to pay are included in the current year's tax edictum, available at

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/consul-2004-02-01.html

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23523 From: J. Michael Keba Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
A. Ambrosius Celetrus G. Equitio Cato S.P.D.

Salve Cato,

> when I then
> find your "I'm not making a threat" post disingenuous and say so
> (even in passing), WHAM! out come the knives. It is people like
> yourself, who find it easy to condescend and difficult to retract,
> that are making things in NR more..."interesting".

It's called argument by intimidation, I believe. When someone cannot
defend their position rationally they resort to name calling, insults
and the ever popular "you cannot possibly know what I know" and/or
"understand the depth of my thoughts."

Knowledge of facts and wisdom are two different elements of cognition.
When someone must resort to mental intimidation based on their perceived
authority, it is evident which element is lacking.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23524 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Ave Paulinus

> MAY is a suggestion of what we can do, not a command that we must do, as
> "shall announce" would be.

In fact, I haven't said you HAD to voice our agreement, I said it would had
been interesting to know the tribunes' standing on the issue.

Vale

DCF

PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23525 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

>Frankly, Cato, it is the fact that people like you are citizens
>
>
>which
>
>
>>makes me despair of NR ever being anything more than a political
>>role-playing game for Roman wannabes. You are so far from
>>
>>
>understanding
>
>
>>what I am about that trying to explain it to you would be more
>>
>>
>difficult
>
>
>>than trying to explain colours to a blind man.
>>
>>Vale.
>>
>>Scaurus
>>
>>
>
>Scaurus, could this not be considered an ad hominem attack?
>

Why is it ad hominem to observe that you have a mindset and attitude
toward NR which is reflected in virtually every post you make which
makes me despair of NR being anything but one damned political fight
after another with people who seem not to understand the founding vision
of NR, and that the number of such people has grown to be legion:? Why
is it an ad hominem attack to say that this development fills me with
despair?

>It is
>not called for, unneccessary, and beneath what I would have thought
>was the dignity of a pontiff. If what you "are about" means that you
>refuse to live in a world wherein people, for all your displayed
>knowledge and erudition, may disagree with you; or when they disagree
>with you you morph from the scholar to the snarler, then you are
>correct: I do not understand that.
>

I do not suffer foolishness easily; I never have. And I think that a
great deal of what you have said here since becoming a citizen has been,
in my view, foolishness, and foolishness of a sort which is profoundly
dangerous for NR being a place for reconstruction of the Religio. Would
you prefer that I be a hypocrite and bite my tongue and smile when
things precious to me seem to be falling into ruin all around me? I
have given everyhting I can to Nova Roma and what I have gotten for it
is suggestions that I be sacrificed to the Gods and hurled from the
Tarpeian Rock, and a lawsuit for pointing out a legalism, which is
strangling NR, which will makes it impossible for me to seek office
again or to be adlected to the Senate. Under the circumstances I think
my reaction has been mild. If the intention was to drive me from NR in
disgust, a better strategy could not have been found.

>I have certainly shown you
>respect, even in the heat of argument, both on the public Lists and
>in private; I have publicly apologized or made more clear my
>statements every single time you have called me on it; when I then
>find your "I'm not making a threat" post disingenuous and say so
>(even in passing), WHAM! out come the knives. It is people like
>yourself, who find it easy to condescend and difficult to retract,
>that are making things in NR more..."interesting".
>
Just how do you expect a person to react when you call him liar? And
that is exactly what "disingenuous" means in this context.

>As a passing thought, by the way, was it not I who got smacked around
>on the List for daring to suggest that NR might become *more* than
>just a private club for religio-practitioners? I somehow remember
>getting scolded repeatedly for daring to suggest that NR might
>actually encompass real life someday...
>

You fail to understand that the one place in NR where daily, RT
activities take place is the Religio. And the Religio seems to be fair
game for every ripe ignoramus who wants NR to be his or her modernist
fantasy of "what Rome should be." When people tear down other people's
religion, it makes them, at the least, surly. Surely that is a part of
the real world you can understand. The rest of the world can happily
think and say that those of us who follow the mos maiorum and practice
blood sacrifice are barbarians who would engage in human sacrifice if he
had the chance, but I never imagined I would have to endure this
imbecility in NR.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23526 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Welcome back Pater Patriae!
Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Flavio Vedio Germanico S.P.D.

Salve.

Welcome home Pater Patriae!

Vale bene,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23527 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.D.

Salve Scaurus,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

> >Scaurus, could this not be considered an ad hominem attack?
> >
>
> Why is it ad hominem to observe that you have a mindset and
attitude toward NR which is reflected in virtually every post you
make which makes me despair of NR being anything but one damned
political fight after another with people who seem not to understand
the founding vision of NR, and that the number of such people has
grown to be legion:? Why is it an ad hominem attack to say that this
development fills me with despair?

CATO: Scaurus, I would ask you to step back for a minute, as I have,
and reflect on simply this: is it not possible to have a greater
vision of NR than simply the practice of the religio? Make no
mistake, I truly do understand, from what you have said, how
important the religio is to you, and I have never *ever* suggested
that your practice was other than a noble effort on your part to
bring the worship of the Roman gods to life. Even if I do not
practice the religio, I know how important my own faith is, and so I
assume your faith is equally important to you.
>
> >It is
> >not called for, unneccessary, and beneath what I would have
thought
> >was the dignity of a pontiff. If what you "are about" means that
you
> >refuse to live in a world wherein people, for all your displayed
> >knowledge and erudition, may disagree with you; or when they
disagree
> >with you you morph from the scholar to the snarler, then you are
> >correct: I do not understand that.
> >
>
> I do not suffer foolishness easily; I never have. And I think that
a great deal of what you have said here since becoming a citizen has
been, in my view, foolishness, and foolishness of a sort which is
profoundly dangerous for NR being a place for reconstruction of the
Religio. Would you prefer that I be a hypocrite and bite my tongue
and smile when things precious to me seem to be falling into ruin all
around me? I have given everyhting I can to Nova Roma and what I
have gotten for it is suggestions that I be sacrificed to the Gods
and hurled from the Tarpeian Rock, and a lawsuit for pointing out a
legalism, which is strangling NR, which will makes it impossible for
me to seek office again or to be adlected to the Senate. Under the
circumstances I think my reaction has been mild. If the intention
was to drive me from NR in disgust, a better strategy could not have
been found.

CATO: Scaurus, I myself declared in a post on this list my disgust
at the suggestion that you be sacrificed; I also find the reference
to the Tarpeian Rock untoward in the extreme. Have *I* ever
suggested anything of the kind? No. I have disagreed with the public
practice of blood sacrifices, yes. I have expressed the feeling that
there can be more than (*not* any substitution for) just the religio
in NR, yes. I have suggested that it might be possible to live by
the letter of the Constitution until or if it is amended, yes. Do
these expressions really fill you with despair? I am profoundly
sorry that they do so, because I have *never* even come close to
deriding the practice of the religio; I have stated clearly and
repeatedly that each man must find his own way to God/the gods as
their conscience dictates. Is this really what you would call
foolishness? The desire to see something bigger, something greater,
come from NR than it being merely a cultus?

>
> >I have certainly shown you respect, even in the heat of argument,
both on the public Lists and in private; I have publicly apologized
or made more clear my statements every single time you have called me
on it; when I then find your "I'm not making a threat" post
disingenuous and say so (even in passing), WHAM! out come the
knives. It is people like yourself, who find it easy to condescend
and difficult to retract, that are making things in NR
more..."interesting".

> >
> Just how do you expect a person to react when you call him liar?
And that is exactly what "disingenuous" means in this context.


CATO: Unfortunately, that may be the case. I do not think you could
possibly have been completely unaware of the impact your statement
that you would resign would have; you are neither stupid nor short-
sighted, and you must have known. To claim it was a simple crie-de-
coeur is, in all honesty, to underestimate the intelligence of your
fellow-citizens. It was, in fact, disingenuous. Now, you may indeed
think that some of your fellow-citizens (or at least me) are (am) a
complete dolt. So be it. I would respectfully disagree. You are a
very part of the blood and bone and sinew of NR, and your statement
inevitably would cause great reaction. You knew this. When I called
you on it, you reacted in anger. Yes, this is a natural reaction,
but I think it to be the reaction of one who has been caught, not the
reaction of one who was unaware.


> As a passing thought, by the way, was it not I who got smacked
around on the List for daring to suggest that NR might become *more*
than just a private club for religio-practitioners? I somehow
remember getting scolded repeatedly for daring to suggest that NR
might actually encompass real life someday...
> >
>
> You fail to understand that the one place in NR where daily, RT
> activities take place is the Religio. And the Religio seems to be
fair game for every ripe ignoramus who wants NR to be his or her
modernist fantasy of "what Rome should be." When people tear down
other people's religion, it makes them, at the least, surly. Surely
that is a part of the real world you can understand. The rest of the
world can happily think and say that those of us who follow the mos
maiorum and practice blood sacrifice are barbarians who would engage
in human sacrifice if he had the chance, but I never imagined I would
have to endure this imbecility in NR.


CATO: No, I am *not* failing in this understanding. I have not put
a "modernist fantasy" out there of "what Rome should be"; I have not
defamed the religio in any way, shape or form, or even questioned its
place in NR, other than my own declared distaste for public blood
sacrifices; I have never called anyone a "barbarian", and, in the
context of the mos maiorum of the ancient Republic, human sacrifices
*were*, in fact, offered up by the Romans at various times,
regardless of by what authority they were done so. I have not
suggested that they were imminent in NR. What you insist on calling
a "modernist fantasy" is a simple reaction to the absurdity of
the "strict re-constructionist" ideal, and is in complete accordance
with the Constitution, where we claim to be rebuilding "the best" of
ancient Rome, "in all manners practical and acceptable". It boils
down to what is considered "the best", "practical", and "acceptable",
and by what authority that should be declared. If the Founding
Fathers and/or the writer(s) of the Declaration and Constitution made
mistakes in expressing their ideas clearly, that is not my fault.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23528 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

There has been a lot of talk about the indignity of one Nova Roman citizen "telling it like it is" to another Nova Roman citizen (in "telling it like it is" I mean "stating their opinion as they see it"). The one thing from antiqua that comes to mind is the Philipic speaches of Cicero that he made on the senate floor; were these speaches undignified? Perhaps, or perhaps they were simply Roman oratory. If Cicero were alive today he would be ridiculed as Scaurus is ridiculed; for being undignified and not politically correct enough.

Of all the citizens in Nova Roma I would say there are a few that I would place in the "most Roman of us within Nova Roma" category. G. Iulius Scaurus would definitly be in the top 5. If being Politically Correct is what it means to be Roman, then maybe I should go and become Asatru.

Naaa... I'll stay in Nova Roma and be Roman, and hopefully with some practice maybe I too can be a part of the "most Roman of us within Nova Roma" category; I would surely be in good company.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 2:37:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> Scaurus, could this not be considered an ad hominem attack? It is
> not called for, unneccessary, and beneath what I would have thought
> was the dignity of a pontiff. If what you "are about" means that you
> refuse to live in a world wherein people, for all your displayed
> knowledge and erudition, may disagree with you; or when they disagree
> with you you morph from the scholar to the snarler, then you are
> correct: I do not understand that. I have certainly shown you
> respect, even in the heat of argument, both on the public Lists and
> in private; I have publicly apologized or made more clear my
> statements every single time you have called me on it; when I then
> find your "I'm not making a threat" post disingenuous and say so
> (even in passing), WHAM! out come the knives. It is people like
> yourself, who find it easy to condescend and difficult to retract,
> that are making things in NR more..."interesting".
>
> As a passing thought, by the way, was it not I who got smacked around
> on the List for daring to suggest that NR might become *more* than
> just a private club for religio-practitioners? I somehow remember
> getting scolded repeatedly for daring to suggest that NR
> might
> actually encompass real life someday...
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23529 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Great! Do you have a break down of payers per provincia? I would like to know how Lacus Magni rates this year.

MBA

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
Salvete Quirites,

As of today, we have 208 assidui citizens in Nova Roma. I've waited
until now to allow for slowness in the mails before reporting the number
to the populace.

Citizens who have not yet paid their tax for the current year are
reminded that they still may do so. Details of specific tax rates and
how to pay are included in the current year's tax edictum, available at

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/consul-2004-02-01.html

Valete,

-- Marinus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23530 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Salve Athanasi, and thank you for the perspective. I have been
grieving lately for the state of our republic, when a priestess of
Magna Mater can call for human sacrifice and go unpunished, and we as
a community go through yet another round of vituperative wrangling. I
was heartened when the Illustrious Iulius Scaurus voiced my own
feelings so eloquently. If even he experiences despair for our
future, then I do not feel so alone. When we go through these
periods, I often think that we are a community intent on either
destroying ourselves, or on becoming something far different than we
consciously intend. I haven't always agreed with you on other topics,
Athanasi, but your message gives me heart and on this we agree: "I'll
stay in Nova Roma and be Roman."

Vale,
Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
>
> There has been a lot of talk about the indignity of one Nova Roman
citizen "telling it like it is" to another Nova Roman citizen
(in "telling it like it is" I mean "stating their opinion as they see
it"). The one thing from antiqua that comes to mind is the Philipic
speaches of Cicero that he made on the senate floor; were these
speaches undignified? Perhaps, or perhaps they were simply Roman
oratory. If Cicero were alive today he would be ridiculed as Scaurus
is ridiculed; for being undignified and not politically correct
enough.
>
> Of all the citizens in Nova Roma I would say there are a few that I
would place in the "most Roman of us within Nova Roma" category. G.
Iulius Scaurus would definitly be in the top 5. If being Politically
Correct is what it means to be Roman, then maybe I should go and
become Asatru.
>
> Naaa... I'll stay in Nova Roma and be Roman, and hopefully with
some practice maybe I too can be a part of the "most Roman of us
within Nova Roma" category; I would surely be in good company.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23531 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus wrote:
>
> ... when a priestess of
> Magna Mater can call for human sacrifice and go unpunished,

And just when did that happen?

If you're refering to Fabia Vera's remarks, she's currently in a moderated
status, imposed under my Imperium. If you think that's insufficient, then
you're welcome to prosecute her.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23532 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Flavius Vedius Germanicus Nova Romanii S.P.D.

Salvete omnes,

I want to thank everyone who has welcomed me back, both here and in
private correspondence.

As I told the Censores in my application to return as a Citizen of
our fair Republic, I want nothing more than to help make Nova Roma a
more satisfying and enjoyable experience for everyone. I offer my
meager skills and knowledge in that effort. I beg all to know that I
have no ambitions beyond this. My intention right now is to focus on
real-world events here in Mediatlantica Provincia. One needs no
title to host a convivium. :-)

I am especially touched that Decius Iunius Palladius was among the
first to welcome me back, because he and I had something of a
falling out previously. I want to let everyone know that I hold no
grudges, and have returned in the spirit of Concordia, asking humbly
for forgiveness for any past wrongs I may have committed to anyone
here.

I am also returned to the practice of the Religio, finding its
orthopraxy to be a good fit for me. If possible, I will make
whatever contributions to its nurturing, propagation, and well-being
that I can.

Thanks once more to all. The welcome could not have been warmer.
It's good to be home.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23533 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
--- P. Minucia Tiberia Tribune Gai Modi Athanasie .......

I do believe you perhaps forget that, although Cicero was a master of
oratory, a memorable advocate, and an idol of many legals in our
century, he was not often known for being gentle in his verbal
assaults...he could cut to the quick in his prize oratoriums quite
often if necessary, in legal settings and socially, apparently, as well.

He was a deep thinker with many goals and strong convictions, and
while in 'exile' for apparently peaving the wrong persons off (oh how
Roman), he wrote many fine works. However, his propensity towards
obnoxious wind-baggism, in attempting to win people over to his
adopted point of view, was self-destructive in the end, with his very
head hung on the Rostra.

I do not wish that on Scaurus or anyone else...however, there are many
lessons to be learned from Cicero's life...but one of them is NOT that
people were unwilling to oppose him, and rather harshly sometimes,
simply because he was Cicero. Nowadays we wouldn't 'dream' of
treating Cicero disrespectfully...we are looking at him
retrospectively...but in Roma Antiquita, he was just another Senator,
Consular, Advocus, Windbag with firm mindsets...one of the boys.

Modi, when endeavors to make a point, it is like sharpening a
pencil...one brings the pencil to a point...but any 'sharpening' after
that is 'overkill' and the point is broken off...Cicero's demise, in
part.... a lesson to be learned from antiquita.

vale
PMT




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
>
> There has been a lot of talk about the indignity of one Nova Roman
citizen "telling it like it is" to another Nova Roman citizen (in
"telling it like it is" I mean "stating their opinion as they see
it"). The one thing from antiqua that comes to mind is the Philipic
speaches of Cicero that he made on the senate floor; were these
speaches undignified? Perhaps, or perhaps they were simply Roman
oratory. If Cicero were alive today he would be ridiculed as Scaurus
is ridiculed; for being undignified and not politically correct enough.
>
> Of all the citizens in Nova Roma I would say there are a few that I
would place in the "most Roman of us within Nova Roma" category. G.
Iulius Scaurus would definitly be in the top 5. If being Politically
Correct is what it means to be Roman, then maybe I should go and
become Asatru.
>
> Naaa... I'll stay in Nova Roma and be Roman, and hopefully with some
practice maybe I too can be a part of the "most Roman of us within
Nova Roma" category; I would surely be in good company.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/19/2004 2:37:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> > Scaurus, could this not be considered an ad hominem attack? It is
> > not called for, unneccessary, and beneath what I would have thought
> > was the dignity of a pontiff. If what you "are about" means that you
> > refuse to live in a world wherein people, for all your displayed
> > knowledge and erudition, may disagree with you; or when they disagree
> > with you you morph from the scholar to the snarler, then you are
> > correct: I do not understand that. I have certainly shown you
> > respect, even in the heat of argument, both on the public Lists and
> > in private; I have publicly apologized or made more clear my
> > statements every single time you have called me on it; when I then
> > find your "I'm not making a threat" post disingenuous and say so
> > (even in passing), WHAM! out come the knives. It is people like
> > yourself, who find it easy to condescend and difficult to retract,
> > that are making things in NR more..."interesting".
> >
> > As a passing thought, by the way, was it not I who got smacked around
> > on the List for daring to suggest that NR might become *more* than
> > just a private club for religio-practitioners? I somehow remember
> > getting scolded repeatedly for daring to suggest that NR
> > might
> > actually encompass real life someday...
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23534 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Marcus Bianchius Antonius wrote:
>
> Great! Do you have a break down of payers per provincia?

Each province's page shows who is an Assiduus citizen.

> I would like to know how Lacus Magni rates this year.

According to http://novaroma.org/bin/view/provincia?provid=A-ML
you have 23 assidui out of a total population of 172. Impressive.
It compares well with my Mediatlantica, where I have 39 out of 254.
That works out to 13.3% for you and 15.3% for us, and that's
including all the socii. I think that if we were to strip away
the socii, we'd both have well over 50% of our citizens.

But before we get too cocky, we need to acknowledge provinces like
Thule, with 11 Assidui out of a total population of 53. That's
very nearly 19%. They've got an amazingly active bunch there.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23535 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
My apologies, Consul. I should have said "without meaningful
punishment." I know you did the best you could. She is, as you say,
briefly on moderated status, but as far as I know she remains a
scribe of Censor Quintilianus and has in no way lost by her remarks.
I could, as you say, prosecute, but that privilege properly belongs
to Scaurus. If he has declined to prosecute, it would be absurd for
anyone else to do so. That doesn't mean I won't continue to see her
remarks as a cause for grief over the state of NR.

Vale,
Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus wrote:
> >
> > ... when a priestess of
> > Magna Mater can call for human sacrifice and go unpunished,
>
> And just when did that happen?
>
> If you're refering to Fabia Vera's remarks, she's currently in a
moderated
> status, imposed under my Imperium. If you think that's
insufficient, then
> you're welcome to prosecute her.
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23536 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Following up to my own comment...

I wrote, in reply to Marcus Bianchus Antonius,
> It compares well with my Mediatlantica, where I have 39 out of 254.
> That works out to 13.3% for you and 15.3% for us, and that's
> including all the socii. I think that if we were to strip away
> the socii, we'd both have well over 50% of our citizens.

A little quick back of the envelope calculation tells me I was being
over enthusiastic. I only have 93 socii. On the other hand I do
have 42 citizens who've joined since the beginning of the year, and
whose status isn't being listed in the census rolls. Still, the only
numbers I can be certain of are that I have 39 definite assidui out
of a total of 161 censi citizens. That's more like 25%. Not 50%.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23537 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: What injustice is this??
Gaius Modius Athanasius Gaio Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

What is this about you not being able to seek office again, or being adlected to the senate? Of all the Nova Romans here you SHOULD be a senator, and you should eventually be Consul, and Censor of Nova Roma. Anything otherwise would be an injustice!!

What law prevents you from holding office?

Vale:

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis, Flamen Pomonalis et Augur

In a message dated 5/19/2004 7:46:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gfr@... writes:

I have given everyhting I can to Nova Roma and what I have gotten for it is suggestions that I be sacrificed to the Gods and hurled from the Tarpeian Rock, and a lawsuit for pointing out a legalism, which is strangling NR, which will makes it impossible for me to seek office again or to be adlected to the Senate. Under the circumstances I think my reaction has been mild. If the intention was to drive me from NR in disgust, a better strategy could not have been found.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23538 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Cato;

I find it odd when you claim to show "respect" for the Religio, yet everytime you refer to "your" God you use "God" when you refer to the Gods of the Religio Romana you use the "gods." If this is uninintentional then your subconscious has given you away.

Any attempt to subvert the place of the Religio within Nova Roma will see me pull my gladius from it's sheath.

Nova Roma is my "CHURCH," and I will protect my Church.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis, Flamen Pomonalis et Augur

In a message dated 5/19/2004 8:42:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> CATO: Scaurus, I myself declared in a post on this list my disgust
> at the suggestion that you be sacrificed; I also find the reference
> to the Tarpeian Rock untoward in the extreme. Have *I* ever
> suggested anything of the kind? No. I have disagreed with the public
> practice of blood sacrifices, yes. I have expressed the feeling that
> there can be more than (*not* any substitution for) just the religio
> in NR, yes. I have suggested that it might be possible to live by
> the letter of the Constitution until or if it is amended, yes. Do
> these expressions really fill you with despair? I am profoundly
> sorry that they do so, because I have *never* even come close to
> deriding the practice of the religio; I have stated clearly and
> repeatedly that each man must find his own way to God/the gods as
> their conscience dictates. Is this really what you would call
> foolishness? The desire to see something bigger, something
> greater,
> come from NR than it being merely a cultus?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23539 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius Iul
Ex officio Tiberius Galerius Paulinus, Tribunus Plebs

I would like to take this opportunity to bring this Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius Iulianus, to the attention of the citizens of Nova Roma and most importantly her magistrates

From time to time things get forgotten. This is one of those times.

According to the records in the Tabularium this Senatus Consulta, passed on November 9th 2753 (2000) is still valid and in effect but unknown to most citizens and magistrates in Nova Roma.

Basically the Senatus Consulta requires a 48 time period for the Citizens of Nova Roma to comment on proposed edicts by her magistrates before they are issued officially. The magistrate is under no obligation to make any changes based on this commentary and they may proceed with the edict when the 48 hours has expired.

The Full text is as follows:
Senatvs Consvlta
The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius Iulianus.
INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT

So that the citizens of Nova Roma may have the opportunity to review, contemplate and comment on pending edicts prior to their official issuance within a reasonable amount of time and so as to not hinder the operation of the nation and government by endless debate the following Edicta Commentary Period is established.

I. Edicts shall be submitted to the Senate and People of Nova Roma in a public forum (i.e. e groups, Nova Roma message board, etc.) simultaneously, for commentary. Said commentary period to begin on the date and time first submitted to said forums and to end forty-eight (48) hours later. Said forty-eight hour period to exclude Dies nefastus and other such instances as the Constitution, Collegium Pontificum and Collegium Augurum shall provide within the laws and Religio Romana of Nova Roma.

II. This commentary period is strictly for COMMENT by the citizens of Nova Roma. The edict submitted can only be modified by the submitting magistrate at their discretion and need not be changed. It is STRONGLY SUGGESTED that the comments be CONSTRUCTIVE. Please keep in mind that being a part of the solution is infinitely more preferable than being part of the problem.

III. Should the submitting magistrate wish to modify their edict, using the feedback from the comments of the citizenry, they may, at their discretion and need not do so. Upon the expiration of the forty-eight hour period the final edict shall be issued pursuant to the Lex Vedia de Ratione Edictum which will then be controlling.

IV. Should the submitting magistrate withdraw their edict prior to the expiration of the commentary period they may do so. The withdrawn edict may be re- submitted and will be considered a "new" matter and the provisions defined herein will begin anew.

V. This Edicta Commentary Period shall have no effect on the Lex Vedia de Ratione Edictum. The edict submitted for comment under these provision is considered "unofficial" and therefore not subject to the Lex Vedia de Ratione Edictum and will only become subject to the provisions thereto upon the expiration of the forty-eight hour commentary period and its subsequent official issuance.

Passed, Yes-12; No-0; Abstain-0

11/09/2000




I hereby serve notice that one week from today I will pronounce intercessio against any and all edits of any magistrate that does not at adhere to this Senatus Consulta and publishes their Edicts "in a public forum (i.e. e- groups, Nova Roma message board, etc.) simultaneously, for commentary".


Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23540 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
PMT;

The lesson learned from Cicero is that if you piss off a kid with power you might just fall victum to his (and his two other friends) wrath via proscription.

What is the modern day equivalent to proscription? Silly law suits, from silly men (or woman) that prevent you from holding office? Maybe.

-- Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 10:10:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, metamorphosis2003@... writes:

> I do not wish that on Scaurus or anyone else...however, there are many
> lessons to be learned from Cicero's life...but one of them is NOT that
> people were unwilling to oppose him, and rather harshly sometimes,
> simply because he was Cicero. Nowadays we wouldn't 'dream' of
> treating Cicero disrespectfully...we are looking at him
> retrospectively...but in Roma Antiquita, he was just another Senator,
> Consular, Advocus, Windbag with firm mindsets...one of the boys.
>
> Modi, when endeavors to make a point, it is like sharpening a
> pencil...one brings the pencil to a point...but any 'sharpening' after
> that is 'overkill' and the point is broken off...Cicero's
> demise, in
> part.... a lesson to be learned from antiquita.
>
> vale
> PMT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23541 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.D.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Cato;
>
> I find it odd when you claim to show "respect" for the Religio, yet
everytime you refer to "your" God you use "God" when you refer to the
Gods of the Religio Romana you use the "gods." If this is
uninintentional then your subconscious has given you away.
>
> Any attempt to subvert the place of the Religio within Nova Roma
will see me pull my gladius from it's sheath.
>
> Nova Roma is my "CHURCH," and I will protect my Church.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Tribunus Plebis, Flamen Pomonalis et Augur

Athanasius:

How petty are we going to get here?

1. It is not an act of my subconscious; I believe in One God, the
Father Almighty...in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God...in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life; the Holy
Trinity. I have never pretended otherwise. It is entirely
consciously and willingly that I capitalize "God" when referring to
the Christian one, as He is the God I worship. (N.B. - no offense is
intended by the use of the male pronoun; it is simply a convention.)

2. The Romans (and the Greeks and the Egyptians and Sumerians and
Babylonians and Assyrians etc. et al.) were not in the habit of
capitilizing the word "god" in their own various languages; mostly
because there simply was no differentiation between "capital"
and "lower-case" letters in their alphabets. So it is in keeping with
historical practice that I use a lower-case letter if referring to
the gods of these religions.

If you prefer to capitalize the word "gods", be my guest. I have
never objected to it on this List, and it is an unnecessary and crude
attempt at diversion to suddenly throw this up; somewhat akin to
question Fuscus' abilities as a magistrate when he got a name
confused.

vale,

Cato

P.S. - the apostrophe in "it's" is incorrect. Your gladius has its
sheath. It's a matter of contraction versus possession. GEC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23542 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Falvius Vedius Germanicus is back
Gaius Modius Athanasius Flavio Vedio Germanico salutem dicit

While I have never had the priviledge of dealing with you when you were active within Nova Roma before I have heard a great deal about you. I am very pleased to see you return, especially since you are one of our esteemed founders.

Nova Roma might be a little different now than when you left. There is still much work to be done.

Welcome, and thank you for making this dream come true Pater Patriae.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 7:51:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, germanicus@... writes:

> Flavius Vedius Germanicus Nova Romanii S.P.D.
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I want to thank everyone who has welcomed me back, both here and in
> private correspondence.
>
> As I told the Censores in my application to return as a Citizen of
> our fair Republic, I want nothing more than to help make Nova Roma a
> more satisfying and enjoyable experience for everyone. I offer my
> meager skills and knowledge in that effort. I beg all to know that I
> have no ambitions beyond this. My intention right now is to focus on
> real-world events here in Mediatlantica Provincia. One needs no
> title to host a convivium. :-)
>
> I am especially touched that Decius Iunius Palladius was among the
> first to welcome me back, because he and I had something of a
> falling out previously. I want to let everyone know that I hold no
> grudges, and have returned in the spirit of Concordia, asking humbly
> for forgiveness for any past wrongs I may have committed to anyone
> here.
>
> I am also returned to the practice of the Religio, finding its
> orthopraxy to be a good fit for me. If possible, I will make
> whatever contributions to its nurturing, propagation, and well-being
> that I can.
>
> Thanks once more to all. The welcome could not have been
> warmer.
> It's good to be home.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23543 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Modi,

Gaius Modius asked Gaius Iulius:
> What is this about you not being able to seek office again, or being
> adlected to the senate?

I can't address the question of adlection, but since there is a pending
Petitio Actionis against Gaius Iulius Scaurus, he can't run for another
office until that case is settled. This is in keeping with the mos
maiorum.

Vale, et valete,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23544 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Modio Athanasio salutem dicit.

Salve, Athanasi.

>What is this about you not being able to seek office again, or being adlected to the senate? Of all the Nova Romans here you SHOULD be a senator, and you should eventually be Consul, and Censor of Nova Roma. Anything otherwise would be an injustice!!
>
>What law prevents you from holding office?
>

It is the mos maiorum. No person against whom a petitio actionis has
been filed may stand for office or be adlected to the senate. Fuscus has
sued me; it has been stayed untl the end of my aedileship, but it means
I shall spend a year ineligible to run for anything or to be adlected to
the Senate. I frankly think that is the reason for the suit (oh, maybe
the bugger will sue me again for speaking that truth). The modernists
have learned to use their legalist weapons well to drive the
traditionalists out of NR. And since I shall not violate the mos
maiorum (I am not so much a hypocrite, and what would be the point of
playing by their rules), so there is nothing to be done. I am not so
young a man as to relish the idea of twiddling my thumbs for a year to
satisfy the malice of my lessers.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23545 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Gaius Modius Athanasius Gnaeo Equitio Marino salutem dicit

Mos maiorum... were is everyone now shouting, "...we are NOVA Roma...not ancient Rome."

What aspect of Nova Roma law dictates that a person cannot run for office when a pending Petitio Actionis is on them? Please, if you can save me the time from going through the tabularium.

Because if that is the case I suspect we might have several petitio actionis come November.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 11:20:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> I can't address the question of adlection, but since there is a pending
> Petitio Actionis against Gaius Iulius Scaurus, he can't run for another
> office until that case is settled. This is in keeping with
> the mos
> maiorum.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23546 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
A sacrifice... thrown from the Tarpeian Rock... disingenuous liar...
obnoxious windbag...

And people wonder why this place is becoming more distasteful to me by
the second.

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23547 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Gaius Modius Athanasius Gaio Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

This is a tradgedy, and a death blow for Nova Roma in my opinion.

You are a better man than I Scaurus. I would use their weapons against them. To keep true to the mos maiorum even when it is used against you is a merit in and of itself.

Fuscus will simply need to dismiss his suit against you.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 11:25:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gfr@... writes:

> It is the mos maiorum. No person against whom a petitio actionis has
> been filed may stand for office or be adlected to the senate. Fuscus has
> sued me; it has been stayed untl the end of my aedileship, but it means
> I shall spend a year ineligible to run for anything or to be adlected to
> the Senate. I frankly think that is the reason for the suit (oh, maybe
> the bugger will sue me again for speaking that truth). The modernists
> have learned to use their legalist weapons well to drive the
> traditionalists out of NR. And since I shall not violate the mos
> maiorum (I am not so much a hypocrite, and what would be the point of
> playing by their rules), so there is nothing to be done. I am not so
> young a man as to relish the idea of twiddling my thumbs
> for a year to
> satisfy the malice of my lessers.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23548 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius
G. Iulius Scaurus T. Galerio Paulino salutem dicit.
]
Salve, T. Galeri.:

>I hereby serve notice that one week from today I will pronounce intercessio against any and all edits of any magistrate that does not at adhere to this Senatus Consulta and publishes their Edicts "in a public forum (i.e. e- groups, Nova Roma message board, etc.) simultaneously, for commentary".
>

Thank you so very much for now making speedy, efficient resolution of
market disputes in the Marcellum completely impossible.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23549 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-19
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
---Salve Modius Tribunus:

In the first place, I do not like your tone...am I not entitled to say
that a) I think Ciceros oratory cut to the quick and was hardly deemed
'political incorrectness'...he'd make fun of your facial features, and
stuff Scaurus hasn't touched upon....

b) Cicero paid dearly, despite the insights he had, with exile
and his life, although he had his moments, with his contemporaries

c) the lesson to be learned is that if we attempt to be too
forceful in 'selling' our opinions, we indeed 'outdo' the good we intend

d) if you are implying by any stretch of the imagination that I
am engaged in a law suit against absolutely anyone to date,
anywhere...I would ask you to give me the details, because there is
obviously more than one "Po" in NR.


I am not sure why you have suddenly taken to this obnoxious tone with
me for simply voicing an opinion, a right clearly given me in the
constitutional language. Indeed as you put it in a text last night to
this forum 'we are a nation of laws'

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> PMT;
>
> The lesson learned from Cicero is that if you piss off a kid with
power you might just fall victum to his (and his two other friends)
wrath via proscription.
>
> What is the modern day equivalent to proscription? Silly law suits,
from silly men (or woman) that prevent you from holding office? Maybe.
>
> -- Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/19/2004 10:10:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
metamorphosis2003@y... writes:
>
> > I do not wish that on Scaurus or anyone else...however, there are many
> > lessons to be learned from Cicero's life...but one of them is NOT that
> > people were unwilling to oppose him, and rather harshly sometimes,
> > simply because he was Cicero. Nowadays we wouldn't 'dream' of
> > treating Cicero disrespectfully...we are looking at him
> > retrospectively...but in Roma Antiquita, he was just another Senator,
> > Consular, Advocus, Windbag with firm mindsets...one of the boys.
> >
> > Modi, when endeavors to make a point, it is like sharpening a
> > pencil...one brings the pencil to a point...but any 'sharpening' after
> > that is 'overkill' and the point is broken off...Cicero's
> > demise, in
> > part.... a lesson to be learned from antiquita.
> >
> > vale
> > PMT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23550 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Modi,

> Gaius Modius Athanasius Gnaeo Equitio Marino salutem dicit
>
> Mos maiorum... were is everyone now shouting, "...we are NOVA Roma...
> not ancient Rome."

Obviously I can't speak for the nebulous "everyone" you are addressing,
but I have a pretty long history of promoting the mos maiorum as a
guide to our decision making processes where our written laws are silent.

Since you specificaly addressed me in your greeting, I figure you were
aiming that rhetorical device in my general direction.

> What aspect of Nova Roma law dictates that a person cannot run for
> office when a pending Petitio Actionis is on them?

The same aspect of Nova Roman law that says I can stay the prosecution
of a Petitio Actionis against a Curule Magistrate until the end of his
term of office. My Imperium.

> Because if that is the case I suspect we might have several petitio
> actionis come November.

I hope we'll have some active Praetors by then, so that they can be
decided quickly, and not become entanglements.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23551 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Cato:

How petty am I going to get?

Considering you claim to be playing respect to ancient custom by refering to my Gods as gods and your god as God. I frankly find that extremely disrespectful. I know there will be several people who will voice thier opinion in support or you and your right to believe the way you do, and that is fine. It still doesn't make it right in my opinion.

If Nova Roma was left in your hands, we would see the Religio pushed aside to some sort of museum piece. And now...I shall keep the rest of my opinions to myself otherwise I will be accused of being "religiously intolerant" and would most likely find a suit filed against me as well.

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 11:08:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> How petty are we going to get here?
>
> 1. It is not an act of my subconscious; I believe in One God, the
> Father Almighty...in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
> God...in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life; the Holy
> Trinity. I have never pretended otherwise. It is entirely
> consciously and willingly that I capitalize "God" when referring to
> the Christian one, as He is the God I worship. (N.B. - no offense is
> intended by the use of the male pronoun; it is simply a convention.)
>
> 2. The Romans (and the Greeks and the Egyptians and Sumerians and
> Babylonians and Assyrians etc. et al.) were not in the habit of
> capitilizing the word "god" in their own various languages; mostly
> because there simply was no differentiation between "capital"
> and "lower-case" letters in their alphabets. So it is in keeping with
> historical practice that I use a lower-case letter if referring to
> the gods of these religions.
>
> If you prefer to capitalize the word "gods", be my guest. I have
> never objected to it on this List, and it is an unnecessary and crude
> attempt at diversion to suddenly throw this up; somewhat akin to
> question Fuscus' abilities as a magistrate when he got a
> name
> confused.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23552 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
A point of clarification, if I may. Do you follow this convention
consistently? Specifically, do you also decline to capitalize proper
names, such as the names of kings?

Just curious,
Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.D.
>
> 2. The Romans (and the Greeks and the Egyptians and Sumerians and
> Babylonians and Assyrians etc. et al.) were not in the habit of
> capitilizing the word "god" in their own various languages; mostly
> because there simply was no differentiation between "capital"
> and "lower-case" letters in their alphabets. So it is in keeping
with
> historical practice that I use a lower-case letter if referring to
> the gods of these religions.
>
> If you prefer to capitalize the word "gods", be my guest. I have
> never objected to it on this List, and it is an unnecessary and
crude
> attempt at diversion to suddenly throw this up; somewhat akin to
> question Fuscus' abilities as a magistrate when he got a name
> confused.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23553 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Back
Salvete omnes,

I just returned tonight and am going over the list. Quite a
disheartening week I would say but the fact one of the founders has
returned sheds at least one positive note. I've got some comments
but first I'm leaving for dinner and a few goblets of wine to clear
my head and get in a more philisophical mode regarding NR. Talk to
you all later.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23554 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
Pompeia:

First you sign your post PMT, and now you sign your post Pompeia. I have no idea who you are!

Regarding my tone. I'm sorry you don't like it. I would encourage you to learn to accept peoples tones, as they are varied on this list. There are several tones on this list that I do not like either, but I don't see any sympathy rolling my way.

I happen to like Cicero, and the Republic. I think Iulius Ceaser deserved the blade he received, and have nothing but disdain for Augustus as well. If there were more Ciceros at the end of the Republic maybe it could have been saved.

My comment regarding law suits was not directed towards you. I will of course not indicate what silly man I was refering to, as I surely would fall under a lawsuit myself for pointing out a truth (at least in my opinion).

I will guard your right to freedom of speech as readily as would my own, of course as long as you don't suggest I be offered up as a human sacrifice. I draw the line at that use of freedom of speech.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/19/2004 11:17:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, metamorphosis2003@... writes:

> ---Salve Modius Tribunus:
>
> In the first place, I do not like your tone...am I not entitled to say
> that a) I think Ciceros oratory cut to the quick and was hardly deemed
> 'political incorrectness'...he'd make fun of your facial features, and
> stuff Scaurus hasn't touched upon....
>
> b) Cicero paid dearly, despite the insights he had, with exile
> and his life, although he had his moments, with his contemporaries
>
> c) the lesson to be learned is that if we attempt to be too
> forceful in 'selling' our opinions, we indeed 'outdo' the good we intend
>
> d) if you are implying by any stretch of the imagination that I
> am engaged in a law suit against absolutely anyone to date,
> anywhere...I would ask you to give me the details, because there is
> obviously more than one "Po" in NR.
>
>
> I am not sure why you have suddenly taken to this obnoxious tone with
> me for simply voicing an opinion, a right clearly given me in the
> constitutional language. Indeed as you put it in a text last night to
> this forum 'we are a nation of laws'
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> > PMT;
> >
> > The lesson learned from Cicero is that if you piss off a kid with
> power you might just fall victum to his (and his two other friends)
> wrath via proscription.
> >
> > What is the modern day equivalent to proscription? Silly law suits,
> from silly men (or woman) that prevent you from holding
> office? Maybe.
> >
> > -- Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23555 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Gaio Iulio Scauro salutem dicit
>
> This is a tradgedy, and a death blow for Nova Roma in my opinion.
>
> You are a better man than I Scaurus. I would use their weapons against them.

What is this "they" and "them", Tribune? Are those citizens who have a
different point of view from yours no longer entitled to your Tribunician
protections?

I happen to consider Gaius Iulius Scaurus a dear friend, and my closest
religious adviser. Fortunately for the Republic, he has a much better
grasp of the mos maiorum, and of essential fairness, than you are currently
demonstrating.

If you think some citizens are enemies of the state, prosecute them for
being such. You are very, very near to charging citizen Fuscus, a
plebian citizen under your sacrosanct protection, with being an enemy
of the State.

> To keep true to the mos maiorum even when it is used against you

Who is using the mos maiorum against Scaurus? He asked us, the Consuls,
to impose a stay against prosecution of the Petitio Actionis against
him until the end of his term of office. We complied. How is that
using the mos maiorum against him?

You don't know what you're talking about, Tribune. I suggest you get
your facts straight before you start throwing around accusations.

> Fuscus will simply need to dismiss his suit against you.

He will, will he? Is that simply your wish, or are you suggesting that
he shall be required to?

Let me tell you what will happen in November if no Praetor has acted on
the Petitio Actionis: I will take the case by right of arrogatio, and I
will make a binding judgement. I have no intention of letting this drag
on and sully our end of year elections. I shall do the same, if I must,
with any other pending Petitio Actiones.

Of course, you can interpose your veto against my attempts to clear
the matters up. But who's obstructing the process then?

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23556 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Salve Consul;

Actually when I mentioned "everyone" I was not thinking of you, sorry if my post insinuated as such. I am glad you use the mos maiorum as your guide. Then you must understand why I feel the way I do about the situation of our Praetors and the issue of Imperium.

One thing I learned in the military; "when in charge take charge." You have done that as Consul. You have taken the job very seriously, and no matter if we disagree on several points you have my respect for "taking charge."

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/20/2004 12:04:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> Obviously I can't speak for the nebulous "everyone" you are addressing,
> but I have a pretty long history of promoting the mos maiorum as a
> guide to our decision making processes where our written laws are silent.
>
> Since you specificaly addressed me in your greeting, I figure you were
> aiming that rhetorical device in my general direction.
>
> > What aspect of Nova Roma law dictates that a person cannot run for
> > office when a pending Petitio Actionis is on them?
>
> The same aspect of Nova Roman law that says I can stay the prosecution
> of a Petitio Actionis against a Curule Magistrate until the end of his
> term of office. My Imperium.
>
> > Because if that is the case I suspect we might have several petitio
> > actionis come November.
>
> I hope we'll have some active Praetors by then, so that
> they can be
> decided quickly, and not become entanglements.
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23557 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Salve Gai Modi,

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
[...]
> One thing I learned in the military; "when in charge take charge."
> You have done that as Consul. You have taken the job very seriously,
> and no matter if we disagree on several points you have my respect for
> "taking charge."

Thank you.

Semper Fidelis, et vale,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23558 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Artoro Iuliano S.P.D.

Salvete,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:


> If Nova Roma was left in your hands, we would see the Religio
pushed aside to some sort of museum piece. And now...I shall keep
the rest of my opinions to myself otherwise I will be accused of
being "religiously intolerant" and would most likely find a suit
filed against me as well.
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius


CATO: Athanasius, do you actually read what I have written, or just
invent things in your head and go with them? Try actually *reading*
what I have written regardng the religio (and, indeed, all religious
practices), then try to form a coherent response. It will be a
welcome change.


> >
> > 2. The Romans (and the Greeks and the Egyptians and Sumerians
and
> > Babylonians and Assyrians etc. et al.) were not in the habit of
> > capitilizing the word "god" in their own various languages;
mostly
> > because there simply was no differentiation between "capital"
> > and "lower-case" letters in their alphabets. So it is in keeping
with
> > historical practice that I use a lower-case letter if referring
to
> > the gods of these religions.

CATO: Iulianus, it is not historical practice to use lower-case
letters when referring to proper names, be they kings or gods or
popes or any other entity. In other words, I refer to Chosroes and
Apollo and Julius II and Ashurbanipal and Juno and Philip of Macedon
and Leo X and Janus using the upper-case. When speaking generically
of kings or gods or popes, etc., it is customary to use the lower-
case. There could be a case made for using the following
formula: "the God Mars waved his sword...", but I have not used the
proper name and divine title in conjunction before, so I have never
had cause to try it out.

valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23559 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Consul Marinus;

I shall attempt, as best I can, to address your points.

a. "Are those citizens who have a different point of view from yours no longer entitled to your Tribunician protections?" Absolutely not. I can disagree with someone until it hurts today, and then tomorrow act as their advocate if it is part of my duties and responsibilities. I have many opinions on things, but when it comes to fulfilling my responsibilities my duty takes precedence over my personal opinions.

b. I have already publically stated that I feel that Scaurus is a better example of Romanitas than I. I have also stated that I hope to someday be as Roman as he, and several others within our Republic. There are also other Romans among us that I admire, Scaurus simply happens to be one of them. His service to Nova Roma and to the Religio have been outstanding, and I hate to see him held back because of a law suit. It saddens me greatly knowing that Scaurus may have to postpone his climb up the cursus honorum because of this lawsuit. This bothers me greatly, as I too consider Scaurus a good friend.

c. Your subtle, or perhaps not too subtle, disdain of my use of veto is not necessary. I know you disapprove of my use of intercessio. I'm sorry. I have mentioned before that I will follow the dictates of my conscience. Sorry if that bothers you. The pot shots are not necessary.

e. Regarding the suit by Fuscus. If he wants to dismiss it he shall. I have no power over him to require him to dismiss his suit, and you know that. I would hope that he would drop it in the name of Concordia. It serves little purpose, in my opinion.

f. Regarding my role as Tribune, as I stated above I would stand to protect my most hardened adversary if I was required to in the fullfillment of my duties as Tribune. My oath of service as a Tribune is something I belive in completely. I might not be the best Roman scholar, but if I am proven wrong I will admit my error, and will do so in public if necessary. If I have made a poor judgement call I will admit such if necessary. I am not too proud to know I make mistakes and to know I am not perfect.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius



In a message dated 5/20/2004 12:21:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> What is this "they" and "them", Tribune? Are those citizens who have a
> different point of view from yours no longer entitled to your Tribunician
> protections?
>
> I happen to consider Gaius Iulius Scaurus a dear friend, and my closest
> religious adviser. Fortunately for the Republic, he has a much better
> grasp of the mos maiorum, and of essential fairness, than you are currently
> demonstrating.
>
> If you think some citizens are enemies of the state, prosecute them for
> being such. You are very, very near to charging citizen Fuscus, a
> plebian citizen under your sacrosanct protection, with being an enemy
> of the State.
>
> > To keep true to the mos maiorum even when it is used against you
>
> Who is using the mos maiorum against Scaurus? He asked us, the Consuls,
> to impose a stay against prosecution of the Petitio Actionis against
> him until the end of his term of office. We complied. How is that
> using the mos maiorum against him?
>
> You don't know what you're talking about, Tribune. I suggest you get
> your facts straight before you start throwing around accusations.
>
> > Fuscus will simply need to dismiss his suit against you.
>
> He will, will he? Is that simply your wish, or are you suggesting that
> he shall be required to?
>
> Let me tell you what will happen in November if no Praetor has acted on
> the Petitio Actionis: I will take the case by right of arrogatio, and I
> will make a binding judgement. I have no intention of letting this drag
> on and sully our end of year elections. I shall do the same, if I must,
> with any other pending Petitio Actiones.
>
> Of course, you can interpose your veto against my attempts
> to clear
> the matters up. But who's obstructing the process then?
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23560 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Ave Omnes

> It is the mos maiorum. No person against whom a petitio actionis has
> been filed may stand for office or be adlected to the senate. Fuscus has
> sued me; it has been stayed untl the end of my aedileship, but it means
> I shall spend a year ineligible to run for anything or to be adlected to
> the Senate. I frankly think that is the reason for the suit (oh, maybe
> the bugger will sue me again for speaking that truth).

Nope, I've sued you for what you said when in a single mail you managed to
concentrate 7 or 8 sentences all up to be brought in front of a judex under
the laws of Nova Roma, and now I will not sue you for having stated your
opinion about whatever could had been my motives, but I will surely sue you
again for having called me "bugger". So you see, you can try to have
yourself passed as a martyr, but indeed you are doing it all by yourself
with your own words.


DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23561 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Capitalization
Salve Cato,

I'm thinking about this. I was afraid you'd say that. It seems to me,
then, that an appeal to "historical practice," which sounds so
reasonable on casual reading, is really just another way of saying
that the western world developed upper and lower letters in its
alphabet, and since that world has been Christian for 1000 years and
hasn't made a practice of capitalizing the word "God" when used in
the plural, the western/Christian convention is arguably appropriate,
even in a pagan reconstructionist republic. If that's your position,
I understand how you derive it, although I can't say that I agree. If
that's not your position, I hope you will be patient enough to
explain it more fully.

Vale,
Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Artoro Iuliano S.P.D.
>
> CATO: Iulianus, it is not historical practice to use lower-case
> letters when referring to proper names, be they kings or gods or
> popes or any other entity. In other words, I refer to Chosroes and
> Apollo and Julius II and Ashurbanipal and Juno and Philip of
Macedon
> and Leo X and Janus using the upper-case. When speaking generically
> of kings or gods or popes, etc., it is customary to use the lower-
> case. There could be a case made for using the following
> formula: "the God Mars waved his sword...", but I have not used the
> proper name and divine title in conjunction before, so I have never
> had cause to try it out.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23562 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quititibus S.P.D.

Salvete.

If a citizen cannot run for office with a pending Petitio Actionis
against them, what is going to prevent a rash of lawsuits being used as
political weapons when election time roles around again? It seems there
may be some serious potential for abuse here... are there any safeguards
to prevent this from happening?

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23563 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
G. Equitius Cato A. Arturo Iuliano S.D.

Salve Iulianus,

Well, the point you make is valid, although I would consider over
1500 years' worth of usage a fairly historical practice :)

One other issue, though, is that in Judaism and Islam, even though
the languages in which their scriptures are written have no upper-
case letters either, when they are translated into a Western language
the word "God" is capitalized while "gods" is not. This may be a by-
product of monotheism. However, in Farsi, Hindi, Chinese, and
Japanese, which also have only a single case of letters, when
translated (even by native speakers and/or practitioners of those
polytheistic religions appropriate) into a Western language, the
word "gods" is in lower-case.

It may have a mirror in the ongoing discussion involving the usage of
the terms "B.C.E." and "C.E." as opposed to "B.C." and "A.D."

In any case, the usage of upper- or lower-case letters is absolutely
not intended as a mark of disrespect, and I still believe that
Athanasius is simply trying to poke a sharp stick at me in any way he
can. He's playing semantics, and the supposed validity of his
accusations of Christianocentrism (I just made that word up, so
please don't anyone jump on me for it...you get my point), at least
as far as NR is concerned, are well and truly put to rest by a
reading of any of my past posts. But, just for the sake of crystal
clarity, let me state unequivocally that:

1. I recognize that the religio romana is the State religion of Nova
Roma, and if I was in a position to be required (i.e., an elected
magistrate---that's a scary thought, huh, Athanasius?)to do so, I
would show every outward sign of honoring the religio, as required by
the Constitution.
2. It is not now, nor has it ever been, my intention to "replace"
or "dispense with" the religio, although I do stand in opposition to
the PUBLIC sacrifice of animals (or humans) to any being, god or
otherwise. This position has, to my knowledge, been sanctioned by
the government of Nova Roma.
3. I believe that each man or woman is responsible for their own
soul, and that each man or woman must find for themselves the path by
which the divine may be realized in their own lives. I do not judge
anyone, nor do I expect judgement from anyone.
4. I am a Christian, and a newly-received Orthodox Christian at
that; I have not, nor will I in the future, ever "proselytize" in any
way, shape, or form. I will, however, respond to attacks on
Christianity, and respond to simple questions regarding my Faith if
asked.

I think that is as clear as I can get.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
<artorus@a...> wrote:
> Salve Cato,
>
> I'm thinking about this. I was afraid you'd say that. It seems to
me,
> then, that an appeal to "historical practice," which sounds so
> reasonable on casual reading, is really just another way of saying
> that the western world developed upper and lower letters in its
> alphabet, and since that world has been Christian for 1000 years
and
> hasn't made a practice of capitalizing the word "God" when used in
> the plural, the western/Christian convention is arguably
appropriate,
> even in a pagan reconstructionist republic. If that's your
position,
> I understand how you derive it, although I can't say that I agree.
If
> that's not your position, I hope you will be patient enough to
> explain it more fully.
>
> Vale,
> Artorus Iulianus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Artoro Iuliano S.P.D.
> >
> > CATO: Iulianus, it is not historical practice to use lower-case
> > letters when referring to proper names, be they kings or gods or
> > popes or any other entity. In other words, I refer to Chosroes
and
> > Apollo and Julius II and Ashurbanipal and Juno and Philip of
> Macedon
> > and Leo X and Janus using the upper-case. When speaking
generically
> > of kings or gods or popes, etc., it is customary to use the lower-
> > case. There could be a case made for using the following
> > formula: "the God Mars waved his sword...", but I have not used
the
> > proper name and divine title in conjunction before, so I have
never
> > had cause to try it out.
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23564 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Salve Cato,

Thank you for the cogent response. As you might expect, I still
disagree, but we've each had a fair chance to make our points, so
I'll simply congratulate you on your recent conversion to the
Orthodox Christian faith. It's a beautiful religion, although my
liberal politics would prevent me from ever going that direction
myself -- even if my religious affections were not already engaged
elsewhere ;)

Vale,
Artorus Iulianus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato A. Arturo Iuliano S.D.
>
> Salve Iulianus,
>
> Well, the point you make is valid, although I would consider over
> 1500 years' worth of usage a fairly historical practice :)
>
> One other issue, though, is that in Judaism and Islam, even though
> the languages in which their scriptures are written have no upper-
> case letters either, when they are translated into a Western
language
> the word "God" is capitalized while "gods" is not. This may be a
by-
> product of monotheism. However, in Farsi, Hindi, Chinese, and
> Japanese, which also have only a single case of letters, when
> translated (even by native speakers and/or practitioners of those
> polytheistic religions appropriate) into a Western language, the
> word "gods" is in lower-case.
>
> It may have a mirror in the ongoing discussion involving the usage
of
> the terms "B.C.E." and "C.E." as opposed to "B.C." and "A.D."
>
> In any case, the usage of upper- or lower-case letters is
absolutely
> not intended as a mark of disrespect, and I still believe that
> Athanasius is simply trying to poke a sharp stick at me in any way
he
> can. He's playing semantics, and the supposed validity of his
> accusations of Christianocentrism (I just made that word up, so
> please don't anyone jump on me for it...you get my point), at least
> as far as NR is concerned, are well and truly put to rest by a
> reading of any of my past posts. But, just for the sake of crystal
> clarity, let me state unequivocally that:
>
> 1. I recognize that the religio romana is the State religion of
Nova
> Roma, and if I was in a position to be required (i.e., an elected
> magistrate---that's a scary thought, huh, Athanasius?)to do so, I
> would show every outward sign of honoring the religio, as required
by
> the Constitution.
> 2. It is not now, nor has it ever been, my intention to "replace"
> or "dispense with" the religio, although I do stand in opposition
to
> the PUBLIC sacrifice of animals (or humans) to any being, god or
> otherwise. This position has, to my knowledge, been sanctioned by
> the government of Nova Roma.
> 3. I believe that each man or woman is responsible for their own
> soul, and that each man or woman must find for themselves the path
by
> which the divine may be realized in their own lives. I do not
judge
> anyone, nor do I expect judgement from anyone.
> 4. I am a Christian, and a newly-received Orthodox Christian at
> that; I have not, nor will I in the future, ever "proselytize" in
any
> way, shape, or form. I will, however, respond to attacks on
> Christianity, and respond to simple questions regarding my Faith if
> asked.
>
> I think that is as clear as I can get.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23565 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for ...
In a message dated 5/19/04 8:48:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

> Cato
>
> P.S. - the apostrophe in "it's" is incorrect. Your gladius has its
> sheath. It's a matter of contraction versus possession. GEC
>
>
Salvete
Cato,

Well that showed him, didn't it? Whatever you care to believe in private,
Nova Roma allows you. You don't want to captilize the "g" for Gods of the
Religio Romana, that's your choice.
The Tribune felt that you were showing public disrespect that's all, which is
his right.
I don't see that you were. You have to believe in something to show
disrespect.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23566 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
---Salve G. Iulius Scaurus et Omnes:

I am the sorry soul who referred to CICERO, not you, as the obnoxious
windbag....I 'believe' my verbage was 'obnoxious windbaggism'...If you
know anything about Cicero Gnae Scaure, and I keenly imagine you do,
such is an appraisal that he himself would indeed agree with, if he
were able to speak now...moreover, he would probably say to us, 'do
not make the same mistakes that I did'

I cannot believe, for the life of me...how you can remotely
confabulate, or even 'try' to suggest with any success, to this
audience that I called anyone but Cicero an obnoxious windbag by
anything I wrote this evening.

I gather this troubles you, as you took the time to complain about it,
but the bottom-line analysis is, in my opinion, that Cicero, or the
term"obnoxious windbag' or the current price of tea, are hardly the
key things weighing on your mind. Indeed, they are as much a thought
for you as the recent Tribune intercessio is for Modius. A pity one
with intercessio powers cannot follow the lead of one of his
colleagues and search the historical sources for guidance on certain
matters of law. Heck, additional information is as easy to find via
search engine as the biographies of some of his political ancestors,
Publius Claudius and Saturninus come to mind somehow...

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> A sacrifice... thrown from the Tarpeian Rock... disingenuous liar...
> obnoxious windbag...
>
> And people wonder why this place is becoming more distasteful to me by
> the second.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23567 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Senatus Consulta: The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius
---Salve Curulis Aedilis G. Iulius Scaurus:

Your tax dollars at work :)

Modius et Galeri...you are absolutely amazing...

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus T. Galerio Paulino salutem dicit.
> ]
> Salve, T. Galeri.:
>
> >I hereby serve notice that one week from today I will pronounce
intercessio against any and all edits of any magistrate that does not
at adhere to this Senatus Consulta and publishes their Edicts "in a
public forum (i.e. e- groups, Nova Roma message board, etc.)
simultaneously, for commentary".
> >
>
> Thank you so very much for now making speedy, efficient resolution of
> market disputes in the Marcellum completely impossible.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
> Aedilis Curulis
>
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23568 From: Matt Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: If we had an active praetor, I might get in trouble for saying
---P Minucia G Modi Athanasi:

First thread to you this evening I addressed you as P Minucia Tiberia
Tribune yadda yadda...before I wrote another word....that should not
be an issue and in the second thread, after your discussion of
lawsuits which has nothing to do with me, regardless of my name, I
used my nickname PO in the text...there is only one Po, and there has
only been one "Po" in NR since I've been here in 2000..even 'you' have
called me Po...and I am entitled to my opinion... it doesn't matter
'who' I am. I think you were very defensive over beneign remarks about
Cicero, and started attacking me about lawsuits which I certainly
don't have in the works...in fact, I am not sure what such had to do
with anything at all, but perhaps, in all fairness I missed it.

"Pompeia" (who is trying to switch her addie over with Yahoo, so this
should no longer be a worry for you as to who I am...but that
shouldn't matter anyway, really, when one is debating the issues and
not the person, nonne?)



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Pompeia:
>
> First you sign your post PMT, and now you sign your post Pompeia. I
have no idea who you are!
>
> Regarding my tone. I'm sorry you don't like it. I would encourage
you to learn to accept peoples tones, as they are varied on this list.
There are several tones on this list that I do not like either, but I
don't see any sympathy rolling my way.
>
> I happen to like Cicero, and the Republic. I think Iulius Ceaser
deserved the blade he received, and have nothing but disdain for
Augustus as well. If there were more Ciceros at the end of the
Republic maybe it could have been saved.
>
> My comment regarding law suits was not directed towards you. I will
of course not indicate what silly man I was refering to, as I surely
would fall under a lawsuit myself for pointing out a truth (at least
in my opinion).
>
> I will guard your right to freedom of speech as readily as would my
own, of course as long as you don't suggest I be offered up as a human
sacrifice. I draw the line at that use of freedom of speech.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/19/2004 11:17:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
metamorphosis2003@y... writes:
>
> > ---Salve Modius Tribunus:
> >
> > In the first place, I do not like your tone...am I not entitled to say
> > that a) I think Ciceros oratory cut to the quick and was hardly deemed
> > 'political incorrectness'...he'd make fun of your facial features, and
> > stuff Scaurus hasn't touched upon....
> >
> > b) Cicero paid dearly, despite the insights he had, with exile
> > and his life, although he had his moments, with his contemporaries
> >
> > c) the lesson to be learned is that if we attempt to be too
> > forceful in 'selling' our opinions, we indeed 'outdo' the good we
intend
> >
> > d) if you are implying by any stretch of the imagination that I
> > am engaged in a law suit against absolutely anyone to date,
> > anywhere...I would ask you to give me the details, because there is
> > obviously more than one "Po" in NR.
> >
> >
> > I am not sure why you have suddenly taken to this obnoxious tone with
> > me for simply voicing an opinion, a right clearly given me in the
> > constitutional language. Indeed as you put it in a text last night to
> > this forum 'we are a nation of laws'
> >
> > Pompeia
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> > > PMT;
> > >
> > > The lesson learned from Cicero is that if you piss off a kid with
> > power you might just fall victum to his (and his two other friends)
> > wrath via proscription.
> > >
> > > What is the modern day equivalent to proscription? Silly law suits,
> > from silly men (or woman) that prevent you from holding
> > office? Maybe.
> > >
> > > -- Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23569 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix wrote:

> If a citizen cannot run for office with a pending Petitio Actionis
> against them, what is going to prevent a rash of lawsuits being
used as
> political weapons when election time roles around again? It seems
there
> may be some serious potential for abuse here... are there any
safeguards
> to prevent this from happening?

I think - though I'm no expert - that if the praetors were to dismiss
the suit then there would be no reason why that person could not run
for office. In other words, the claims have to have some grounding
in reality.

Livia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23570 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Salvete omnes,

We cannot afford to lose one citizen. Even less can we afford to
lose a citizen that pays taxes. It is terrible to lose a citizen
that has held or holds public office and has contributed to Nova
Roma through dedication of time, effort, creativity and their own
money. It would be a disaster of unmitigated proportions to lose
someone who is dedicated, and a vast resource of knowledge. I would
view the departure of Scaurus as the latter.

I view his intended prosecution as a complete waste of time and
diversion of energy. In fact given the very threadbare nature of the
laws we have to frame actions/prosecutions around, it becomes an
exercise in futility. This is a small community. Who are the iudices
going to be? Someone who knows him, or certainly knows of him. Will
they be friend or foe? Will they be neutral? As to the latter who
truly does not have an opinion one way or another? Therefore what
level of impartiality can a Nova Roman court promise a defendant?
Given the amount of publicity this issue has received who will not
have prior knowledge and thus a pre-formed opinion? Will not this
just be a "show trial" - a pantomime of politics in a court?

I suspect a far greater purpose in this prosecution than "righting a
wrong". I believe the prosecution was mounted with the intent of
setting limits on discussion - moderation through trial. I do not
believe for one instant that this prosecution is about what Scaurus
said about Fuscus or Italy, but what he says in general, what he
stands for and how he says it. That to me is an abuse of a legal
system that is so nascent and shaky that if this farce goes ahead
and fails it will bring the whole of Nova Roman law into complete
disrepute. Then when someone truly has a genuine need of it (as
opposed to the need to ride a political horse on top of the law), it
will be battered, bruised and probably held (rightly) in contempt.

There is a lot more work to be done on our laws before the system
will support actions/prosecutions in a fair and impartial manner
(and given our population that will always be in doubt).

I don't want anyone to leave, especially Scaurus. I don't want to
see pointless prosecutions - be they of Scaurus or Fuscus, and if
that doesn't sway you as individuals, can you at least put the legal
knives away until you have a really competent and developed legal
system, then you can butcher each other to your heart's content.

Vale

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23571 From: Gaia Fabia Livia Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
I realise that the two main participants in this debate have happily
reached an understanding, and I hope I don't stir anything up by
adding my little contribution at this late stage; I have no intention
of offending anyone on either side.

Personally, I have in the past always used God for the Christian
deity for the simple reason that - so far as I can discern - that is
his name. At least he doesn't seem to have another one that anyone
uses, so in the same way that I wouldn't think to de-capitalize the
word Jesus I will write it with a capital letter. However in
sentences such as "The Christian faith acknowledges only one god" I
would write this with lower case because here it is not the name.

On the other hand, the Roman and other pagan gods are fortunate
enough to have names of their own - I will naturally capitalize
Apollo, Mars, etc. but it has never occurred to me that anyone might
want me to write "Gods" because personally I use capitalization for
the starts of sentences and for proper nouns, not just for whatever I
consider to be important.

This is common practice in the local pagan community in Oxford, so it
is not *quite* just my personal opinion, but if it causes offence for
me to follow my usual practices here then that is reason enough to
change them, so please let me know! I just thought that you might
appreciate a completely different perspective on the issue.

Livia




Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus wrote:

> Thank you for the cogent response. As you might expect, I still
> disagree, but we've each had a fair chance to make our points, so
> I'll simply congratulate you on your recent conversion to the
> Orthodox Christian faith. It's a beautiful religion, although my
> liberal politics would prevent me from ever going that direction
> myself -- even if my religious affections were not already engaged
> elsewhere ;)
>
> Vale,
> Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23572 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: And what about the other tribunes?
Salvete Omnes,

in any way, I agree the intercessio by Arminius Faustus. Calling
Comitia to remove a Magistrate and in the same time to elect a
substitue is quite wrong and unconstitutional.
We, Consul and Tribunes, hope to find a fast solution to this hard
situation.

Valete
Fr. Apulus CAesar
Tribunus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Domitius Constantinus Fuscus"
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave Paulinus
>
> > MAY is a suggestion of what we can do, not a command that we
must do, as
> > "shall announce" would be.
>
> In fact, I haven't said you HAD to voice our agreement, I said it
would had
> been interesting to know the tribunes' standing on the issue.
>
> Vale
>
> DCF
>
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23573 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
G. Iulius Scaurus D. Constantino Fusco salutem dicit.

Salve, Fusce

>Nope, I've sued you for what you said when in a single mail you managed to
>concentrate 7 or 8 sentences all up to be brought in front of a judex under
>the laws of Nova Roma, and now I will not sue you for having stated your
>opinion about whatever could had been my motives, but I will surely sue you
>again for having called me "bugger". So you see, you can try to have
>yourself passed as a martyr, but indeed you are doing it all by yourself
>with your own words.
>

I am not responsible for deficiencies in your command of Anglo-American
English. I've called myself an "old bugger" pn this list, as I have my
dear friend Cincinnatus. I've even called my closest friend in NR,
Salix Astur, a "bugger" here -- it means "chap, fellow, guy." I did not
call you a "buggerer," which seems to be the word you've confused with
it, although I think you are very close to buggering with the language
just for the sake of harrassment Sue me all you please. It seems like
you've finally found a career in NR in it.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23574 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Assidui Citizens
Salvete Consul Marinus et Illustrus Antonius,
my personal congratulations, wonderul numbers. Provincia Italia have
a lower percentage of payers but it continue to grow, now it's the
second nova roman province for citizens after Mediatlantica.

A request of information: the list of Legati and scribae of the
Provincia Italia is quite wrong, who could update it? Please contact
me of my Illustrus Propraetor Italiae COnstantinus Serapio for the
correct list.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senator et Legatus Italiae

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius wrote:
> >
> > Great! Do you have a break down of payers per provincia?
>
> Each province's page shows who is an Assiduus citizen.
>
> > I would like to know how Lacus Magni rates this year.
>
> According to http://novaroma.org/bin/view/provincia?provid=A-ML
> you have 23 assidui out of a total population of 172. Impressive.
> It compares well with my Mediatlantica, where I have 39 out of 254.
> That works out to 13.3% for you and 15.3% for us, and that's
> including all the socii. I think that if we were to strip away
> the socii, we'd both have well over 50% of our citizens.
>
> But before we get too cocky, we need to acknowledge provinces like
> Thule, with 11 Assidui out of a total population of 53. That's
> very nearly 19%. They've got an amazingly active bunch there.
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23575 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: ante diem XIII Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem XIII Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem XII Kalendae Iunii and the Agonalia; the day is
nefastus publicus. The Agonalia of Maius was sacred to Vediovis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23576 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
Salve Illustrus Hadrianus,

> If a citizen cannot run for office with a pending Petitio
Actionis
> against them, what is going to prevent a rash of lawsuits being
used as
> political weapons when election time roles around again? It seems
there
> may be some serious potential for abuse here... are there any
safeguards
> to prevent this from happening?

I suppose that the Praetores must dedice to accept the Petitio
Actionis. The Imperium and the mos mariorum of the Praetores would
be enough to protect the system and permit to everybody normal and
democratical elections.
If this is not enough because the Praetores are member of a kind
of "political conspiracy" (like someone is suggesting today...), the
Tribunes should guarantee and protect teh system vetoing the petitio
actionis accepted by the Praetores if they'ld look soem kind of
irregularities.
I'm quite sure that this "conspiracy" (IMHO who think there are a
sort of legal war in NR aiming to destroy the "traditionalists" is
only a crazy and pathetic victim unable to be a serious "virtual"
political ... it seems lile the italian premier accusing in several
trials and claiming that he's a victim of a communist persecution ;-
) couldn't work and be accomplished.

Vale
Fr. Apulsu Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23577 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - IX - Edictum
Salve,

As I said on many speeches, the NR magistrate must study careful the Mos Maiorum, the ancient way of Rome, before opening the mounth on Nova Roma. It is a very big naivete thinking we can have an acting different, and trying to make laws of ´our very head´ we can make some real and legal roman mistakes on legislation.

A danger not only to the Res Publica, but to all the roman studies it sponsors within its lines.

Even NR laws, edicta, senatusconsulta and past determinations are evolving, I hope coming each day more near to the Mos Maiorum, with the right adaptations for modern times. Much of our texts were ´dead letter´, violations of the Roman Way, and still some of them we unfortunatly have attached to our legislation. These last case we must deal carefully, but as Dura Lex sed Lex, we must go to the proper ways to correct it, the will of the Comitia, the appreciation of the Senate.

Vale bene, LAF


Articles on Roman Government - IX - Edictum

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes only. The text is copyright of its owner.


Edictum
The Roman term for any written announcement made by a magistrate to the people. An edictum was sometimes temporary only-- as, e. g., the announcements of the public assemblies or games; sometimes it contained permanent enactments--as, for instance, the edicta of the censors against luxury. The name was especially applied to the proclamations issued by judicial functionaries on assuming office, and stating the principles or rules which they intended to follow in the exercise of their authority. The edicta of the ædiles relative to the markets belong to this class. One kind of edictum was specially important in its bearing upon Roman law, the edictum of the praetor. In his edictum the praetor laid down the rules which he would observe in arranging the proceedings of the regular courts and of his voluntary jurisdiction, and in deciding cases which did not appear to be covered by the written enactments of the Twelve Tables or later legislation. These edicta, written on wood, stone, or
bronze, were in early times published only as occasion required, but in later times the praetors regularly promulgated them on entering upon their office. They prevented the fossilization of the law, and allowed the enactments of the Twelve Tables to adapt themselves in natural development to the changing circumstances of civic life and intercourse. It is true that the edicta had no force beyond the praetor's year of office, but, as every new praetor observed what was found in the edicta of his predecessors, a permanent nucleus of constantly repeated rules, called edictum perpetuum (“continuous edict”), was formed in course of time. This became, for the later period, a recognized source of customary law, side by side with the leges proper. At length, under Hadrian, the mass of edicta was reduced to system by Salvius Iulianus, and received the force of law at the imperial command. This body of law included the accepted edicta of the praetor urbanus and the other praetors
administering law in the provinces, of the proconsuls, propraetors, and ædiles. It was called edictum perpetuum, ius praetorium, or ius honorarium--the latter because its authors had held public offices (honores). On this collection the Corpus Iuris of Justinian is in great part founded. The emperor and imperial officials, as praefectus urbi and praefectus praetorio, had also the right of issuing edicta. See Corpus Iuris.
Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.

EDICTUM
EDICTUM The jus edicendi, or power of issuing edicts--public and authoritative notices on matters which fell within their jurisdiction, or formed part of their official business--belonged to all the higher magistrates at Rome. The censors published edicts relative to a coming census (Liv. xxxix. 44; cf. Plin. H. N. xiv. § 95, xxxvi. § 4): the consuls thus summoned the senate and the comitia. Cicero (in Verr. ii. 41) mentions an edict of the tribunes connected with their right of intercession; and the edicts of the aediles, which are alluded to by Plautus (Capt. iv. 2, v. 43) and Cicero (de Off. iii. 17), had an important influence on the law of sale. Gaius tells us (i. 6) that the aedilician [p. 705] jurisdiction was exercised in provinces of the Roman people by quaestors, but that there were no such quaestors in the provinces of the emperor. Such magisterial edicts, so long as they remained in force, were reckoned an integral part of the law of Rome, among the sources of which they
are enumerated (e. g. Cic. Top. 5; Gaius, i. 2): they are said (Dig. 44, 7, 2) to constitute the jus honorarium as distinct from the jus civile, because their authors were invested with the honores or higher magistracies. But the edicts of which we hear most are those of the. praetors ( amplissimum jus est in edictis duorum praetorum, Gaius, i. 6): hence jus praetorium and jus honorarium are sometimes used as equivalent and interchangeable expressions.
The term edictum signifies generally any public notice made by a competent authority (Cic. in Pison. 8; Liv. ii. 30, xxviii. 25, xxxi. 6; Tac. Ann. i. 7; Gell. xiii. 15; Dig. 1, 16, 4, 3; 49, 16, 4, 13), and in particular, under the republic, rules promulgated by a magistrate by writing them in albo and placing them, like the leges (Dion. Hal. iii. 36), in a conspicuous place, unde de plano recte legi potest: hence the edicts of the magistrates are described by Justinian (Inst. i. 2, 3) after Ulpian (Dig. 1, 1, 5, pr.) as part of the jus scriptures of Rome. It became usual for the praetor, at the commencement of his year of office, to proclaim by an edict the principles which, apart from the established rules of the jus civile, he intended to observe in the administration of justice; and eventually this usage developed into a constitutional obligation. Such edict was called edictum perpetuum, because the practice was constant and unbroken, and was contrasted with edicta repentina
(Cic. in Verr. iii. 1. 4), isolated orders which the praetor made during, and not at the commencement of, his year of office, and generally, though not always, relating to some specific case. Not unfrequently, however, a praetor acted contrary to his edictum perpetuum (e. g. Verres, Cic. in Verr. i. 4. 6), or varied the rules therein stated by subsequent edicta repentina: but this was made illegal by a Lex Cornelia, B.C. 67 (Asconius ad Cic. pro Cornelio; Dio Cass. xxxvi. 23).
Technically speaking, no edictum perpetuum had validity for a longer period than its author's tenure of the praetorship, for it was upheld only by his imperium: hence Cicero (in Verr. ii. 1, 42) calls the edict annua lex. But it became the rule, at least as early as the time of Cicero (de Invent. ii. 22), for each successive praetor to adopt, in substance, the edict of his predecessor, with such additions, abrogations, and changes as he deemed expedient (Cic. in Verr. ii. 1, 44), such part as he adopted being called edictum tralaticium. In this way the edict gradually grew into a considerable and permanent body of law, the excellence of which was guaranteed by the ease with which obnoxious innovations made by one praetor could be repealed by his next successor. Edicts, formulae, and actions which were of special importance, though remaining part of the permanent edict, were commonly named after their original authors: e. g. Edictum Carbonianum; formula Rutiliana, Aquiliana; judicium
Cascellianum; interdictum Salvianum; actio Publiciana, Pauliana, Serviana, &c.
Originally there had been but one praetor; but in 247 B.C. a second one, called praetor peregrinus, to distinguish him from the praetor urbanus, was established for the administration of justice at Rome between aliens or between aliens and Roman citizens. When the state extended her territories beyond the limits of Italy, new praetors were created to act as governors of the new provinces for short terms of years: in the time of Julius Caesar they numbered altogether sixteen. All of these praetors issued annual edicts, and those of the praetors urbanus and peregrinus at any rate were handed on from year to year, and thus were in point of fact permanent and constantly growing bodies of law. The edict of the praetor peregrinus is commonly represented as consisting of rules which he found were practically acknowledged as binding by all the Italian peoples with whom Rome had any dealings, whence the Romans are supposed to have first got the conception of a jus gentium: but other writers
hold that even at this time the Roman law consisted of two portions--one purely indigenous and peculiar to the race, the other common to the other Italian tribes, and that the latter part was applied by the praetor peregrinus in adjudicating on suits in which at least one party was an alien. The edicts issued by the praetors who governed provinces, and who under the empire got the name of praesides, were termed edicta provincialia: some parts of them appear to have been handed on from governor to governor (Cic. ad Fam. iii. 8; ad Att. v. 21), others to have been taken from the edictum urbanum (Cic. in Verr. ii. 1, 46; 3, 65): in cases not otherwise provided for Cicero proclaimed, when a provincial governor, that he would follow the perpetual edict of Rome (ad Att. vi. 1).
It is, however, the urban edict which is of the greatest importance and interest, because it was binding on Roman citizens inter se, and therefore alone formed part of the Roman law in the strictest sense of the term. Many of the most considerable rules and legal doctrines which it established had been developed before the time of Cicero (in Verr. i. 44): for instance, the doctrine of bonorum possessio or praetorian inheritance; the system of bankruptcy execution, known as venditio or emptio bonorum: and the theory of possession as distinct from ownership (dominium) protected by special praetorian remedies of its own [INTERDICTUM]. Indeed, in Cicero's time (de Legg. i. 5; ii. 23) the edict was regularly read in the course of legal study, and the jurists who were his contemporaries had begun to comment on it in lieu of the Twelve Tables and other early statutes of the republican period. Under the early empire it continued to receive, year by year, fresh development from the hands of
successive praetors, though owing to the practical curtailment of their authority by the imperial power their activity in this direction seems to have diminished; the necessary additions and alterations in the law being made rather by direct legislation, and changes being effected in the edict principally in order to accommodate the system of procedure to the new rights and duties which that legislation created. It may easily be believed that, when neither comitia [p. 706] nor senate ventured to enact a statute unless it was initiated by the emperor personally or with his assent, a magistrate would have hesitated to repeal, alter, or extend the law with the boldness and independence which had been usual under the free republic.
The year 131 A.D. was a notable one in the history of the jus praetorium. The Emperor Hadrian then issued, through Salvius Julianus, praetor designate (Eutrop. viii. 17), a revised edition of the edictum urbanum, combining with it the edict of the aedile (Theoph. i. 2, 7: Const. omnem reipub. § 4), and probably also that of the praetor peregrinus and parts of the edicta provincialia. This, which was arranged according to subjects in Titles, was called the edictum perpetuum par excellence, and was published with the force of law for the whole empire, so that the jus honorarium from this time onward had statutory validity, instead of depending on an annual re-enactment. Hence-forward, too, though the magistrates in constitutional theory retained their jus edicendi, the old practice, according to which each praetor issued an edictum perpetuum at the commencement of his year of office, was abandoned. The jurists after Hadrian regard the edict of their own time as something permanent and
unalterable except by the action of the emperor: and Hadrian himself evidently directed that any defect which might subsequently be discovered in the law should be supplied by imperial legislation (Justinian in Const. tanta de confirm. Digest. § 18). This codification of the edicts seems to have been in some way connected with another reform of Hadrian's, by which he divided the whole of Italy into Rome, with its immediately surrounding territory, and four other districts: Rome and its suburbs remained under the authority of the old magistrates, and among them of the praetor, while the other districts were placed under the administration of a new class of officials, called at first consulares, and after M. Aurelius (A.D. 61-180) juridici.
The scope of the edict is described by the jurist Papinian as adjuvandi vel supplendi vel corrigendi juris civilis gratia propter utilitatem publicam (Dig. 1, 1, 7); its purpose was ancillary to that of the civil law, the voids in which it supplied, and in some cases mitigated its hardships even by the enforcement of a contrary rule. An example of its auxiliary operation may be seen in the cases in which it sanctioned a lex imperfecta (e. g. by the exceptio legis Cinciae), and in the great use made by civil-law heirs of the interdict Quorum bonorum, a remedy designed in origin for praetorian successors only. Of its supplementary character no better illustration can be cited than many of the classes of bonorum possessio, especially that given to cognates, who under the civil law had no right of intestate inheritance whatever: and in in integrum restitutio it is found correcting and even subverting the operation of the jus civile.
The precise mode in which the praetor worked through the edict is deserving of notice. Technically speaking, he had no legislative authority: but from the enactment of the Lex Aebutia (of unknown date; see LEX) he had the complete control of the courts and of the system of procedure, and this enabled him to practically alter and extend the substantive law almost as absolutely as any legislator. If so and so happens, he proclaimed, judicium dabo : and by giving an action he practically gave a substantive legal right which before had not existed. In other cases he assisted a defendant by new forms of defence (exceptiones), awarded possession of property under an equitable title, and protected it with interdicts, and cancelled legal rights and duties by restoring parties in statum quo; and in fact, by allowing or disallowing actions or other forms of legal process, he was enabled to introduce a large number of new and important legal principles. The characteristic features of the law
which he thus created were its liberality and common sense. It has none of the peculiarities of the jus civile--formality, exclusiveness, rigidity; the vast majority of its rules are what we should call rules of equity, fitted by their very equitableness and simplicity to endure through all time. It is in fact based on the jus gentium, or rather on the natural sense of right, the naturalis aequitas, in which the Romans recognised that law's internal and generative principle, and which gave the edict such an honourable prominence among the sources of their positive law.
The juristic commentaries on the edict have been already referred to. The first of them was by Aulus Ofilius, a contemporary of Cicero. Labeo, the founder of the Proculian school of jurists, composed four books on the edictum urbanum; and another work of his, in thirty books, on the edict of the praetor peregrinus, is cited by Ulpian in dig. 4, 3, 9. Gaius wrote commentaries on the edicts of both praetors and of the aedile, and there were numerous treatises on the same subject by other eminent lawyers (e. g. Ulpian and Paulus), besides other juristic writings not expressly on the edict, but which followed its arrangement: e. g. the epitome of Hermogenianus (Dig. 1, 5, 2). The result of this continuous annotation was that the commentaries obtained more authority than the edict itself, and became the basis of instruction for law students, especially those of Ulpian and Paulus. Some few fragments of the older edicts are found in the Roman writers, but it is chiefly from the works of the
great jurists, as preserved in the Digest, that we knew anything of the edictum perpetuum of Salvius Julianus, and in these the actual words of the praetor are frequently preserved. The arrangement of this great edict was to a considerable extent the basis of that of Justinian's Digest, and it was followed still more closely in the Code.
The edicta or edictales constitutiones of the emperors are mentioned under CONSTITUTIO.
(The most complete collections of the fragments of the edicts are those of Wieling, Fragmenta Edicti Ferpetui, Franek. 1733, and of Rudorff: the latest treatise on the subject is by Lenel, Das Edictum perpetuum, Leipzig, 1883. Cf. also Walter, Gosch. des röm. Rechts, § § 236, 312, 429, 440; Savigny, Gesch. des röm. Rechts. im Mittelater, ch. i. System, i. p. 109 ff.; Puchta, Institutionen, 8th ed., vol. i. pp. 184-201, 314-322; Böcking, Institutionen, § 16.) [J. B. M.]

A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD. William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray. 1890.








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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23578 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Cato:

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the recent decretum of the Collegium Pontificum allows for the PUBLIC sacrifice of animals to the GODS of the Religio Romana. Please see the the recent Decretum of the Collegium Pontificum:

> >DECRETUM DE SACRIFICIIS
> >
> >QVOD BONVM FAVSTVM FELIX FORTVNATVMQVE SIT POPVLO ROMANO QVIRITIBVS.
> >
> >The Collegium Pontificum has met and decreed:
> >
> >The Collegium Pontificum is the only institution empowered to regulate
> >the ritual practice of the Religio Publica of Nova Roma. Until such a
> >time as the Collegium Pontificum may determine that circumstances are
> >appropriate for the full restoration of the cultus of the Religio
> >Publica the Collegium neither mandates nor prohibits animal sacrifice in
> >the caerimoniae of the Religio Publica. Practitioners of the Religio
> >Romana, including sacerdotes conducting the caerimoniae of the Religio
> >Publica, may conduct or refrain from animal sacrifice in accordance with
> >their conscience and circumstances. If animal sacrifice is conducted in
> >accordance with this decretum, the slaughter of the animal must be
> >conducted humanely, in accordance with the mos maiorum, and in
> >compliance with the macronational law applying to the locale of the
> >sacrifice. The Collegium does not intend to request appropriation of
> >public funds by the Senate for animal sacrifice until and unless a final
> >decision on the full restoration of the ancient cultus has been made, a
> >circumstance which we do not envision as likely until the construction
> >of public temples occurs and the fullest possible discussion of the
> >matter has been undertaken by the appropriate authorities of the state.

The words:

"...Collegium neither mandates nor prohibits animal sacrifice in the caerimoniae of the Religio Publica..." illustrate that it is permissions (later defined under specific circumstances) to have PUBLIC animal sacrifices.

Additionally,

"...Practitioners of the Religio Romana, including sacerdotes conducting the caerimoniae of the Religio Publica, may conduct or refrain from animal sacrifice in accordance with their conscience and circumstances."

Since it is the priesthood, and magistrates, who represent the PUBLIC side of the Religio Romana also refered to as the Religio Publica then it is clearly possible that animal sacrifices will continue to be conducted within Nova Roma as long as:

"...the slaughter of the animal must be conducted humanely, in accordance with the mos maiorum, and in compliance with the macronational law applying to the locale of the sacrifice."

Again, sorry to disappoint you Cato.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/20/2004 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> 2. It is not now, nor has it ever been, my intention to "replace"
> or "dispense with" the religio, although I do stand in opposition to
> the PUBLIC sacrifice of animals (or humans) to any being, god or
> otherwise. This position has, to my knowledge, been
> sanctioned by
> the government of Nova Roma.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23579 From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: The recent legal business
Salvete

Though I am normally quiet and do not voice my opinions in public, I feel I must express my support for Gaius Iulius Scaurus in the coming legal proceedings. As others have said, I also look towards him as a model of Romanitas and would be remiss if I did not offer him my support.

As his quaestor for this year, I have seen the excellent results of his dedication to Nova Roma and to the Immortal Gods. I look forward to the day when he takes his seat in the Senate and offer him my assistance in all matters.

As a side note, for the proceedings of the Peitio, do the litigants need to place a monetary deposit (can't think of a better term) with the Praetors to pay any potential fines? Or does this not apply for civil matters? I am no expert on Roman law by any means. If a deposit is needed, I pledge to assist Gaius Iulius Scaurus in that as well.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23580 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: The recent legal business
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Vipsanio Agrippae salutem dicit.

Salve, Agrippa mi amice.

Than you for the very kind words. There is no requirement of sponsio in
the Lex Salicia Poenalis. There is a delicious, if rather disgusting,
irony in being sued under a law of which I wrote the largest part when a
scriba to Salix Astur. If I had known then what I know now, I'd have
suggested it was, perhaps, better not to leave loaded firearms where the
children can get at them. I must say I do understand Sulla and Augustus
rather better than I did before, and appreciate even more deeply how
great a fool the Divus Iulius could be.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23581 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
G. Equitius Cato Liviae A. Arturo Iuliano quiritibusque S.P.D.

salvete!

Iuliano, thanks in re Orthodoxy; it was a long time coming but I'm
very happy.

Livia! I hadn't even thought of that, but it's absolutely correct,
if you exclude the "I AM" as His proper Name. I re-read the bit in
Exodus where God talks to Moses, and it's actually kind of funny,
because it takes God three times to figure out what His Name is.
It's an interesting (if unwitting) support within Judaism for the
emerging monotheism that's taking place: God seems to be naming
Himself on the spot, discovering the need for a Name and inventing it
at the same time. Why? Because until He is asked, He's never had to
give Himself a name before. He lives alone, without other gods
around Him, so He has never had to address anyone before; He is the
only one of His kind. He hasn't yet required prayer to Himself, so it
hasn't come up in His dealings with humans. When He thinks of
Himself, what can His response be other than simply, "I AM"? Later,
of course, He orders the Jews never ever to speak His Name again,
other than the High Priest on the Day of Atonement inside the Holy of
Holies in the Temple; indeed He declares it blasphemy to utter His
Name, hence the use of "Adonai" (LORD) or "Elohim" (GOD) in the
Hebrew scriptures in place of His Name. So for all intents and
purposes, at that point He has taken the usage of a proper name away
from us, leaving us to address Him as "God", at least until He gives
Himself flesh and takes the Name of Jesus. I think I might differ in
the sentence you use as illustration ("The Christian faith only
acknowledges..."), only because I think it would be self-referential,
a sort of "naming catch-22", if you know what I mean.

(N.B. - this is NOT a defamation of the Roman gods, but simply a
discussion regarding a particular question. And, once again, as
always, the use of the male pronoun is simply convention, without
offense meant to the female gender.)

Oh, and Athanasius, the decree you mentioned in re blood sacrifices
says that "no public funds" will be allocated etc. etc., etc., which
fulfills the desire that several citizens (myself among them) had
expressed regarding the religio publica. It was, I believe, a
compromise similiar to "don't ask, don't tell" --- i.e., if a
sacrifice is made by a private citizen in the course of his or her
private practice of the religio (even if in that particular instance
it is being offered as a part of the religio publica), it is being
made without the funds of the State being involved. Scaurus
mentioned about a month ago or so the intricate ritual regarding the
harvest sacrifice (the Rogalia, I think?) in which the ancients would
sacrifice a red puppy, etc. (he even noted humorously the kind of
reaction he expected if he'd actually sacrificed a puppy, it being
more offensive to offer up an animal we are more likely to play with
on a daily basis than, say, a cow ---but I live in NYC, so we don't
have a lot of cows running around to play with), but he did the
ceremony using his own resources, privately, and I understood his
position. That's what I meant, and I apologize if I was not clear. I
congratulate you, however, on responding specifically and coherently
to an actual statement that I made. Way to go! Keep it up! You and
I will someday be having actual conversations!

valete,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Fabia Livia"
<livia_lists@s...> wrote:
> I realise that the two main participants in this debate have
happily
> reached an understanding, and I hope I don't stir anything up by
> adding my little contribution at this late stage; I have no
intention
> of offending anyone on either side.
>
> Personally, I have in the past always used God for the Christian
> deity for the simple reason that - so far as I can discern - that
is
> his name. At least he doesn't seem to have another one that anyone
> uses, so in the same way that I wouldn't think to de-capitalize the
> word Jesus I will write it with a capital letter. However in
> sentences such as "The Christian faith acknowledges only one god" I
> would write this with lower case because here it is not the name.
>
> On the other hand, the Roman and other pagan gods are fortunate
> enough to have names of their own - I will naturally capitalize
> Apollo, Mars, etc. but it has never occurred to me that anyone
might
> want me to write "Gods" because personally I use capitalization for
> the starts of sentences and for proper nouns, not just for whatever
I
> consider to be important.
>
> This is common practice in the local pagan community in Oxford, so
it
> is not *quite* just my personal opinion, but if it causes offence
for
> me to follow my usual practices here then that is reason enough to
> change them, so please let me know! I just thought that you might
> appreciate a completely different perspective on the issue.
>
> Livia
>
>
>
>
> Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus wrote:
>
> > Thank you for the cogent response. As you might expect, I still
> > disagree, but we've each had a fair chance to make our points, so
> > I'll simply congratulate you on your recent conversion to the
> > Orthodox Christian faith. It's a beautiful religion, although my
> > liberal politics would prevent me from ever going that direction
> > myself -- even if my religious affections were not already
engaged
> > elsewhere ;)
> >
> > Vale,
> > Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23582 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] What injustice is this??
One of the definitions of bugger is:

"Slang. A fellow; a chap: “He's a silly little bugger, then” (John le Carré)."

Since Scaurus used a word not commonly used (i.e. bugger), and has taken the liberty to define his use of the word I don't see how Fuscus can build a lawsuit out of someone using the word bugger. Perhaps Fuscus has an aversion to being called "fellow" or "chap."

-- Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/20/2004 6:30:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gfr@... writes:

> I am not responsible for deficiencies in your command of Anglo-American
> English. I've called myself an "old bugger" pn this list, as I have my
> dear friend Cincinnatus. I've even called my closest friend in NR,
> Salix Astur, a "bugger" here -- it means "chap, fellow, guy." I did not
> call you a "buggerer," which seems to be the word you've confused with
> it, although I think you are very close to buggering with the language
> just for the sake of harrassment Sue me all you please.
> It seems like
> you've finally found a career in NR in it.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23583 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
> It is the mos maiorum. No person against whom a petitio actionis has
> been filed may stand for office or be adlected to the senate. Fuscus has
> sued me; it has been stayed untl the end of my aedileship, but it means
> I shall spend a year ineligible to run for anything or to be adlected to
> the Senate. I frankly think that is the reason for the suit

This is obscene, and I agree with your suspicions of the reason for the
suit.

G. Iulius Scaurus is one of our most active and deserving citizens. He
was instrumental in bringing about the compromise during the conflict
regarding a potential Nota in February.

THEREFORE, as an act of protest and civil disobedience, I hereby
refuse to perform any century or tribal assignments until
this restriction is lifted and this fine and dedicated person is
allowed to run for any office he seeks.

It is the lawyers who should be flung from the Rock.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
moderation is for monks. - Heinlein
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23584 From: G.C. Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Ave Scaurus

Ok, I may have a deficiency in my Anglo-American English, as you say.
After all, that is not my native language. I will communicate it to
the HarperCollins tho, who issued one of the most famous and most
commonly used English dictionaries with such a definition:

The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins Publishers:

bugger ['bʌgə]
noun
1 a person who practises buggery

2 (taboo slang)
a person or thing considered to be contemptible, unpleasant, or
difficult

3 (slang)
a humorous or affectionate term for a man or child
example: a silly old bugger
example: a friendly little bugger

4 bugger all (slang)
nothing

Note the "taboo" thing over there. Now, Pontifex, if you are going to
say (to me now or to the judex later, if so a Praetor will decide)
that in all honesty you meant that "bugger" as a "humorous or
affectionate" comment headed my way, fine, I'll even pretend to
believe you and forget about it, but all considered, so far and given
the precedents and the present situation, I have all the doubts about
it and the right to interpret it otherwise.

About the "sue me all you please". I actually am no more pleased than
you are, given that every time I have to file a petitio against you
it means you have dropped a public insult my way... if you think that
being insulted pleases me, think twice. You will have, maybe, noticed
that since I filed my first petitio I've accurately avoided
addressing you or answering any public post of yours directly and, as
much as I could, indirectly as well and I think I mostly succeeded at
it. I did that because I generally believe that two parts that are
already in a conflict arrived to the point to be brought to a court,
should avoid continuing interacting and make things even worse.

Despite my effort of not having anything to do with you, still you
manage to keep dropping insults my way and what is astonishing is
that when you are called to answer for it, you come out with the
statement that it would be done for a cover political agenda. Yes,
maybe (maybe, because the Consul made it clear that he does intend to
have the cases resolved anyway before the elections of December one
way or the other, and I think that is a wise choice indeed) my
petitiones will have as an effect the fact you will not be able to
candidate yourself to greater offices, but that will only be, in
case, an indirect effect of your own actions, not of the malice or
the secret plot of someone you repeatedly insulted thinking, who
knows why, that he wouldn't have brought you to answer about it in
front of the authorities.

Also, about the "It seems like you've finally found a career in NR in
it".. thanx, I'm much more interested in trying to organize a RL Nova
Roman Community in Rome, put some order in the legal documents of the
Res publica and amenities like that rather than writing petitiones
against you, it's you who force me to do it with your actions and
words.

As a last note, personally, I think that if the Praetores had been
called in action more often in the past, now people (part of a
faction or not, because actually the verbal abuses going beyond
argumenting a point but degeenrating in mere ad hominem attacks and
the name calling has been widely used on all parts) would measure
their words a bit more carefully and the discussions could be, in
general, a bit more civil.

And now, assuming you can manage to avoid insulting me any further,
I'll try to get back to my effort of not interacting with you.

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23585 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Cato:

Well...since the treasury will not reinburse the sacerdotes of Nova Roma for conducting animal sacrifice are you saying that it WILL reimburse those sacerdotes who conduct non-animal sacrifice?

Because the offerings that I make to Pomona cost money. The bottles of wine I offer on behalf of the Gods cost me money, as does the incense, and other liturgical items. Additionally, I could use a new toga praetexta; since it is used in my duties as a Flamen I presume I can bill Nova Roma for the cost of this since it is appropriate, right? You can't have a preist without vestments right?

You do, Cato, bring up a very good point. Thanks. All the sacerdotes can request reimbursement for their non-animal sacrifice offerings, and for those items necessary int he execution (no pun intended) of their duties as preists. Thank you for opening this can of worms.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/20/2004 8:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> Oh, and Athanasius, the decree you mentioned in re blood sacrifices
> says that "no public funds" will be allocated etc. etc., etc., which
> fulfills the desire that several citizens (myself among them) had
> expressed regarding the religio publica. It was, I believe, a
> compromise similiar to "don't ask, don't tell" --- i.e., if a
> sacrifice is made by a private citizen in the course of his or her
> private practice of the religio (even if in that particular instance
> it is being offered as a part of the religio publica), it is being
> made without the funds of the State being involved. Scaurus
> mentioned about a month ago or so the intricate ritual regarding the
> harvest sacrifice (the Rogalia, I think?) in which the ancients would
> sacrifice a red puppy, etc. (he even noted humorously the kind of
> reaction he expected if he'd actually sacrificed a puppy, it being
> more offensive to offer up an animal we are more likely to play with
> on a daily basis than, say, a cow ---but I live in NYC, so we don't
> have a lot of cows running around to play with), but he did the
> ceremony using his own resources, privately, and I understood his
> position. That's what I meant, and I apologize if I was not clear. I
> congratulate you, however, on responding specifically and coherently
> to an actual statement that I made. Way to go! Keep it
> up! You and
> I will someday be having actual conversations!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23586 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
G. Iulius Scaurus M. Octavio Germanico salutem dicit.

Salve, Germanice.

>>It is the mos maiorum. No person against whom a petitio actionis has
>>been filed may stand for office or be adlected to the senate. Fuscus has
>>sued me; it has been stayed untl the end of my aedileship, but it means
>>I shall spend a year ineligible to run for anything or to be adlected to
>>the Senate. I frankly think that is the reason for the suit
>>
>>
>
>This is obscene, and I agree with your suspicions of the reason for the
>suit.
>
>G. Iulius Scaurus is one of our most active and deserving citizens. He
>was instrumental in bringing about the compromise during the conflict
>regarding a potential Nota in February.
>
>THEREFORE, as an act of protest and civil disobedience, I hereby
>refuse to perform any century or tribal assignments until
>this restriction is lifted and this fine and dedicated person is
>allowed to run for any office he seeks.
>
>It is the lawyers who should be flung from the Rock.
>

As deeply touched as I am that you should offer this, I beseech you not
to carry through such a protest. It will only get you sued and throw
the republic in chaos. Please, I beg you, think again.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23587 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis ex officio

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !

Come on, censor, consular, senator!

Dura Lex Sed Lex!

We have on Nova Roma 9 magistrates capable of proposing legislation,
two consules, two praetores and five tribunes.

If we have a opposition to a Law, propose, by the right magistrates,
a Law to the Comitia revoking/correcting it! Not make civil unrest!

We have a so fine and good system of proposing laws to the people,
why messing up everything?

Crossing the Rubicon only will mess all!

You, dearest consular, was mandatory to make stronger our Comitia
system on your past magistratures. Why weakening it with your own
hands?

If we have a sugestion, submit it to the Comitia. We can change
anything on Nova Roma, if it is submitted to the right source of
power on Old and Nova Roma, the Comitia.

And the will of the roman people of the quirites is the very KEEPER
of the spirit of NR.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
>
> > It is the mos maiorum. No person against whom a petitio actionis
has
> > been filed may stand for office or be adlected to the senate.
Fuscus has
> > sued me; it has been stayed untl the end of my aedileship, but it
means
> > I shall spend a year ineligible to run for anything or to be
adlected to
> > the Senate. I frankly think that is the reason for the suit
>
> This is obscene, and I agree with your suspicions of the reason for
the
> suit.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus is one of our most active and deserving
citizens. He
> was instrumental in bringing about the compromise during the
conflict
> regarding a potential Nota in February.
>
> THEREFORE, as an act of protest and civil disobedience, I hereby
> refuse to perform any century or tribal assignments until
> this restriction is lifted and this fine and dedicated person is
> allowed to run for any office he seeks.
>
> It is the lawyers who should be flung from the Rock.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
> http://www.graveyards.com/
> Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
> moderation is for monks. - Heinlein
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23588 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: The recent legal business (Scaurus)
Salvete omnes,

Some thoughts:

More often than not I try to stay rather neutral in these divisive
debates but in this issue I find I must back the words of my legate,
Agrippa. Now I suggested several weeks ago that people who left
offices and duties or even resigned their citizenship in NR could be
replaced sooner or later like feathers on a chicken's back. I have
to say though that G. Iulius Scaurus is a big exception to that
rule. His work and dedication here speaks for itself and his high
academic background has given NR far more credibility. Some of you
remember the criticisms of "Miss M To You" a year or two ago. She
was a sharp student in Toronto who debated quite vigourously about
how poor our credibilty was and would be without some good
professors or real classic students here. Scaurus has done a great
deal to quash that myth. With regards to the religio practitioners
here, many of you have been worried about the emphasis of the
religio deteriorating. Look what this man has done to promote it as
well as educating the rest of us. By the way, he has not been shy to
politely chew on my ass when he thought I was mistaken about Roman
history or other current issues. Normally I like to throw back a
good argument but in my case I think it is better to do a little less
talking and a little more listening to him with respect to the
classics(err - and WWII) for that matter. Like Agrippa below I'll
assist him and help with any of his legal costs as well. Oh, I know
he can afford them but here it is principle; I hate seeing one of
our greater citizens getting slapped in the face.


2) 200 + Assidui is a very dismal figure. It rather paints a poor
picture of the interest and dedication to NR. Still, we must move
ahead and try to build NR. Hadn't our time be better spent doing
just that? This lawsuit and other lawsuits are totally
counterproductive and will get us nowhere except more demoralized,
divided and send NR down the tubes eventually as a few of our
citizens have pointed out.

3) Based on the above I strongly suggest that the legalities roping
in Scauri advancements in NR be withdrawn. They are totally
unnecessary in my opinion and are doing more damage to Res Republica
than an evangelist coming to the list screaming praise the Lord!
There's only one way to heaven...


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
<canadaoccidentalis@y...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> Though I am normally quiet and do not voice my opinions in public,
I feel I must express my support for Gaius Iulius Scaurus in the
coming legal proceedings. As others have said, I also look towards
him as a model of Romanitas and would be remiss if I did not offer
him my support.
>
> As his quaestor for this year, I have seen the excellent results
of his dedication to Nova Roma and to the Immortal Gods. I look
forward to the day when he takes his seat in the Senate and offer
him my assistance in all matters.
>
> As a side note, for the proceedings of the Peitio, do the
litigants need to place a monetary deposit (can't think of a better
term) with the Praetors to pay any potential fines? Or does this
not apply for civil matters? I am no expert on Roman law by any
means. If a deposit is needed, I pledge to assist Gaius Iulius
Scaurus in that as well.
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23589 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Good point. And a good reason why the electorate should have elected Decimus Iunius Silanus to the Praetorship.

-- Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/20/2004 8:41:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dom.con.fus@... writes:

> As a last note, personally, I think that if the Praetores had been
> called in action more often in the past, now people (part of a
> faction or not, because actually the verbal abuses going beyond
> argumenting a point but degeenrating in mere ad hominem attacks and
> the name calling has been widely used on all parts) would measure
> their words a bit more carefully and the discussions could
> be, in
> general, a bit more civil.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23590 From: G.C. Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Ave

Why a can of worms?

As a matter of principle, for the expenses they have to face for
their duties towards Nova Roma, I think 8and I doubt many would
disagree) they actually should, as should the magistrates for their
expenses, and I'm actually confident that the day NR will actually
have a tangible financial position they (sacerdotes and magistrates)
will get reinmbursed, and rightly so.

vale

DCF
PF COnstantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini


> You do, Cato, bring up a very good point. Thanks. All the
sacerdotes can request reimbursement for their non-animal sacrifice
offerings, and for those items necessary int he execution (no pun
intended) of their duties as preists. Thank you for opening this can
of worms.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23591 From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
> If we have a opposition to a Law, propose, by the right magistrates,
> a Law to the Comitia revoking/correcting it! Not make civil unrest!
>
> We have a so fine and good system of proposing laws to the people,
> why messing up everything?

That "fine and good system" has led us to an utterly unacceptable
situation, where anyone can be paralyzed at whim by a baseless suit
from a political opponent.

A system where that can happen is not something I'm willing to support.
I am prepared to walk away if that's what you're building here.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus.
http://www.graveyards.com/
Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess;
moderation is for monks. - Heinlein
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23592 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
G. Equitius Cat G. Modio Athanasio S.D.

Salve, Athanasius,

What can of worms? I think it's absolutely in line with the spirit
of NR that our magistrates and sacerdotes get re-imbursed for the
expenses they may incur in the course of their official duties; that
is common practice in every business I can think of. It may be just
a question of whether or not NR can actually afford to do so right
now. If and when NR can, I would support that without hesitation.

See? We're actually conversing! How far we can go in 24 hours!

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Cato:
>
> Well...since the treasury will not reinburse the sacerdotes of Nova
Roma for conducting animal sacrifice are you saying that it WILL
reimburse those sacerdotes who conduct non-animal sacrifice?
>
> Because the offerings that I make to Pomona cost money. The
bottles of wine I offer on behalf of the Gods cost me money, as does
the incense, and other liturgical items. Additionally, I could use a
new toga praetexta; since it is used in my duties as a Flamen I
presume I can bill Nova Roma for the cost of this since it is
appropriate, right? You can't have a preist without vestments right?
>
> You do, Cato, bring up a very good point. Thanks. All the
sacerdotes can request reimbursement for their non-animal sacrifice
offerings, and for those items necessary int he execution (no pun
intended) of their duties as preists. Thank you for opening this can
of worms.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/20/2004 8:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> > Oh, and Athanasius, the decree you mentioned in re blood
sacrifices
> > says that "no public funds" will be allocated etc. etc., etc.,
which
> > fulfills the desire that several citizens (myself among them) had
> > expressed regarding the religio publica. It was, I believe, a
> > compromise similiar to "don't ask, don't tell" --- i.e., if a
> > sacrifice is made by a private citizen in the course of his or
her
> > private practice of the religio (even if in that particular
instance
> > it is being offered as a part of the religio publica), it is
being
> > made without the funds of the State being involved. Scaurus
> > mentioned about a month ago or so the intricate ritual regarding
the
> > harvest sacrifice (the Rogalia, I think?) in which the ancients
would
> > sacrifice a red puppy, etc. (he even noted humorously the kind of
> > reaction he expected if he'd actually sacrificed a puppy, it
being
> > more offensive to offer up an animal we are more likely to play
with
> > on a daily basis than, say, a cow ---but I live in NYC, so we
don't
> > have a lot of cows running around to play with), but he did the
> > ceremony using his own resources, privately, and I understood his
> > position. That's what I meant, and I apologize if I was not
clear. I
> > congratulate you, however, on responding specifically and
coherently
> > to an actual statement that I made. Way to go! Keep it
> > up! You and
> > I will someday be having actual conversations!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23593 From: Ambrosius Celetrus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Ambrosius Celetrus Equitio Cato S.P.D.

Michael wrote:

> indeed He declares it blasphemy to utter His
> Name, hence the use of "Adonai" (LORD) or "Elohim" (GOD) in the
> Hebrew scriptures in place of His Name.

Salve Cato,

"Elohim" is plural. The One God started out as just one of the sons of
El Elyon. See Psalm 82 for his usurpation of power.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23594 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: What injustice is this??
Why try to bring back the Roman virtues when we can just sit around and argue about what the word bugger means? Once again, it shows me what an idiot I am for having joined an online roman society.

Its great telling your friends about it also.
"What are you doing?"
"Checking my Nova Roma mail."
"Cool, what are they talking about?"
"Well, they are spending 3 days argueing over the word bugger.....so you wanna join?"

Lovely,




Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
Paterfamilias, gens Bianchia
Quaestor, Nova Roma

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23595 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
G. Equitius Cato A. Ambrosio Celetro S.D.

Salve Ambrosio,

Actually, this is a case in which Christianity points to the Hebrew
as a support for the Trinity, as in Genesis (1:26) when God
says, "Let Us make man in Our image..."; it is a foreshadowing of the
revelation of God the Three in One. As I mentioned, in Judaism it
was a gradual process towards monotheism, although as far as the
word "gods" in Psalm 82:1, see also Psalm 58:2, where it is made
clear that the writer is referring to human judges who would make
themselves gods among men yet act unjustly, and in John 10:34-35,
Jesus remarks (referring to this), "If it calls those men to whom the
word of God was addressed..."

vale

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Ambrosius Celetrus
<Aulus.Ambrosius.Celetrus@a...> wrote:
> Ambrosius Celetrus Equitio Cato S.P.D.
>
> Michael wrote:
>
> > indeed He declares it blasphemy to utter His
> > Name, hence the use of "Adonai" (LORD) or "Elohim" (GOD) in the
> > Hebrew scriptures in place of His Name.
>
> Salve Cato,
>
> "Elohim" is plural. The One God started out as just one of the sons
of
> El Elyon. See Psalm 82 for his usurpation of power.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23596 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato A. Ambrosio Celetro S.D.
>
> Salve Ambrosio,
>
> Actually, this is a case in which Christianity points to the Hebrew
> as a support for the Trinity, as in Genesis (1:26) when God
> says, "Let Us make man in Our image..."; it is a foreshadowing of
the
> revelation of God the Three in One. As I mentioned, in Judaism it
> was a gradual process towards monotheism, although as far as the
> word "gods" in Psalm 82:1, see also Psalm 58:2, where it is made
> clear that the writer is referring to human judges who would make
> themselves gods among men yet act unjustly, and in John 10:34-35,
> Jesus remarks (referring to this), "If it calls those men to whom
the
> word of God was addressed..."
>
> vale
>
> Cato


OOPS! John 10:35 says, "If it calls those men *gods* to whom the
word of God..."

My error.

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23597 From: G.C. Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Maybe a tad off-topic (was: Re: Capitalization)
Ave Omnes

umm.. maybe I am wrong, but I think a discussion about the nature of
(the christian and jewish) God by itself, unless somehow attached to
a subject related to Rome or in any case to the classic world (like,
just to make an example, the influence of christianity over the
change of roman society or, to make another example, the different
perception of the nature of the divinity in the polytheist and
monotheist religions), is a tad off-topic and should be moved to
private mails.

Just a suggestion, of course.

vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of teh Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 23598 From: Ambrosius Celetrus Date: 2004-05-20
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Ambrosius Celetrus Equitio Cato S.D.

Michael wrote:

> As I mentioned, in Judaism it
> was a gradual process towards monotheism, although as far as the
> word "gods" in Psalm 82:1, see also Psalm 58:2, where it is made
> clear that the writer is referring to human judges who would make
> themselves gods among men yet act unjustly,

Salve Cato,

I am well aware that the Hebrews were originally polytheists, and that
the journey to monotheism was a prolonged process. I am also aware the
"elohim" has other meanings, but Psalm 58 is not Psalm 82, and the first
use does not pertain to the second.

If you wish to continue this discussion, please use my private address.

Vale