Salvete Quirites, et salve Gai Modi,

Gaius Modius Athanasius writes:

> The Consuls *CAN* step in and do the job of the Praetors if the Praetors
> are absent.

As you know, I've exercised my Consular imperium a couple of times to act
in loco praetoris.

> So I am wondering *why* these silly lawsuits have not been dismissed
> outright by the Consuls, since the Praetors have obviously forgotted their duties.

Since you don't even know the details of one of the lawsuits, perhaps you're
being a bit premature to label it "silly." As for the other one, you know
perfectly well what I decided to do with respect to it. I posted a general
explanation here of why I chose not to act in loco praetoris for the time
being in the matter of Fuscus v Scaurus, and you and all the other Tribunes
were provided with the text of the finding.

> We are in such disappointing times, maybe the Senate should consider
> appointing a dictator to clean up Nova Roma.

Maybe you should consider thinking before you type. If the Senate decides
that there's a need for extraordinary powers, the Senate can grant them
to the Consuls via Senatus Consultum Ultimum.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Salve Illustris L. Sicinius Drusus!

An organisation needs laws/rules to follow when people don't agree
and I support most of the existing laws of Nova Roma.

I am dead against reducing the Populus to minors who only may accept
what the "grown ups" in the Senate has approved. This will only move
the fighting into the Senate and the citizens will not know what is
going on.

No, there is nothing wrong with our system, the checks and balances
function well. But some citizens need to grow up and stop
name-calling. And we need one or maybe two new (more?) Praetors (List
moderators) to "help" people to keep a decent level of debate on the
main list.

>In the early days of Roma leges were presented to the Comitia in the
>form of a Sentus Consultum. I Suggest that Nova Roma ammend it's
>constitution to strip magistrates of the power to promulgate leges
>without obtaining a Consulta from the Senate. Hopefully this will
>reduce the legal arguments that have plagued Nova Roma for years.
>
>L. Sicinius Drusus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve Tiberi,

Oh sh##############################################t!
What posting was that? I can't find it.

Well, now maybe some of you can see my snowball effect analogy.
All of us should take a break today, reflect on things and say some
prayers that it doesn't come to that. Nova Roma can ill afford a
double whammy today.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus














--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Romans:
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus said in part
>
> "....I, on the other hand, am currently drafting my resignation

letter from

> all my offices and citizenship....
>
>
> Now we have a real problem!!!!!
>
> If any of you care about Nova Roma you, as an individual need to

do all that you can to see that this DOES NOT happen.

>
>
> Please stay! PLEASE!
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites,

It is indeed a dark day when someone like Marcus Octavius Germanicus
resigns as Censor, especially under such bitter terms.

I would ask those citizens who have taken it upon themselves to heap
derision on Octavius to please reconsider. Yes, his actions at this
point are disappointing and not in keeping with the promise implied
when one runs for the office of Censor. But we should be willing to
forgive him much, in light of his many, many contributions to our
Republic.

I have been in communication with Marcus Octavius and right now I would
have to guess that he will not return as Censor. But he has agreed to
continue to host the website, and has said that he'll send copies of the
complete website code to me and several others so that emergency backup
copies exist.

Marcus Octavius retains his citizenship, and his seat in the Senate.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete.

I woke this morning to find Nova Roma seemingly falling apart around my
ears - with two of our most respected citizens having resigned in 24
hours. I have every interntion of commenting on this absolutely tragic
state of affiars in full, but I am forced away on family matters until
Monday. I hope NR is here when I return.

Scarus, Germanicus: I beg you to reconsider.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I can't believe it has come to this? There is no insurgent
> uprising! There is no iminent threat to the existence of NR!

In the past month and a half we've lost a Plebian Aedile, a
Quaestor, for all practical purposes have no Praetors, and now we've
lost a Censor. When long term Nova Romans are dropping like flies
out of disgust of what Nova Roma has become I say there is iminent
threat to the continued existance of Nova Roma. Not so long ago
one person shut down Nova Roma's main means of communication,
fortunately Marcus Octavius Germanicus had a back up ready to run.
All it takes now is Marcus Octavius Germanicus to flip one switch to
off and Nova Roma ceases to exist. I doubt he'd do that without
warning, but that is all it takes.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

The System is destroying Nova Roma.

Instead of fiddling while Nova Roma burns you need to look around you.
The organization is divided into hostile camps. Some Citizens hate
each other with a passion. The number of citizens who bother paying
taxes is absurdly low. We have major magistrates resigning or missing
in action.

These stupid legal battles have created one crisis after another and
we are now in the worst one since since the Civil war 5 years ago and
may surpass that one before this plays out.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:

> Salve Illustris L. Sicinius Drusus!
>
> An organisation needs laws/rules to follow when people don't agree
> and I support most of the existing laws of Nova Roma.
>
> I am dead against reducing the Populus to minors who only may accept
> what the "grown ups" in the Senate has approved. This will only move
> the fighting into the Senate and the citizens will not know what is
> going on.
>
> No, there is nothing wrong with our system, the checks and balances
> function well. But some citizens need to grow up and stop
> name-calling. And we need one or maybe two new (more?) Praetors (List
> moderators) to "help" people to keep a decent level of debate on the
> main list.
>
> >In the early days of Roma leges were presented to the Comitia in the
> >form of a Sentus Consultum. I Suggest that Nova Roma ammend it's
> >constitution to strip magistrates of the power to promulgate leges
> >without obtaining a Consulta from the Senate. Hopefully this will
> >reduce the legal arguments that have plagued Nova Roma for years.
> >
> >L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Censor, Consularis et Senator
> Proconsul Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salvete,

Fuscus, I believe it will not be an 'ad hominem" attack to say that I
believe you have been consciously acting as a "list troll,"
deliberately spreading discord under the disguise of noble concepts
such as "freedom of speech", "equality", "fairness", etc.

This is actually a pretty well known Internet phenomenon; you
certainly did not invent it. Many people who work to disrupt
communities for fun post things they know will set others off in a
very sincere, friendly and open manner... then they are well able to
play the "victim" when others get upset.

Formosanus and some of the people that went on to form the SVR used
this particular tactic for many months. We're not all new folks
here... many of us have seen this tactic again, and again, and again.

I don't believe for a moment that you are some sort of "champion of
the people" here to preserve the rights of others. If anything I
believe your actions are a prime example of why we do NOT need "civil
law" in Nova Roma... Citizens should not be allowed to bait other
Citizens and then "sue" their enraged victim for damages when that
person finally snaps.

That kind of social play is about as admirable as 'bear baiting,' and
should not be condoned in any civilized community.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Domitius Constantinus Fuscus"
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:

> Ave Julianus
> Ave Marce Cassio Juliano
>
>
> Yes, you are right, we should have never arrived this far and

faster,

> quicker and more nimble moderation procedures should probably be in

place

> for minor incidents.
>
> The problem is that such procedures were never put in place and the

constant

> abuses, not even so slowly, escalated over the last two years and

became the

> normal way of dealing with the lines of someone who doesn't share

your (not

> your "you", a general your) point of view.
>
> The only way left to a citizen not to be bullied around in Nova

Roma is,

> indeed, to go for a "lawsuit", which actually is nothing else that

the only

> way given to a member of Nova Roma to ask the Praetors (that you

could call

> as well list moderators in this case) to check if maybe it wouldn't

be the

> case to do something. Is this an inconsiderate act out of a mere

will of

> roleplaying a court procedure? Nope, is just the only way we cives

can hope

> to produce an intervent by the proper authorities to which the

moderation of

> the list is demanded.
>
> To belittle such thing is to negate any hope to some cives that

there are

> civil limits within which one can express himself over the list and

give

> others the virtual certainty that they can say just about anything

and be

> unpunishable, even in the light form of being moderated (which

means, let's

> remember it, that your post will be read by someone before being

forwarded

> to everyone else and MAY be rejected with an explanation, not that

they will

> be bounced automatically).
>
> The former censor (who, incidentally, despite what he said, is

still well on

> this list, so people could avoid talking about him as if he was

dead by

> murder) decided to call the single and only tool given to the cives

to find

> some sort of protection from the constant rain of insults "playing

lawyer".

> Ok, but it's Nova Roma's cives that put in place for themselves a

para-legal

> system in order to have the moderators do something and they did so

to put

> in place a system full of guarantees. Calling someone a "kiddie

lawyer"

> because the only way he has to call the moderator is modelled on a

legal

> court system is like calling in mockery "kiddie acrobat" the man

who tries,

> risking his neck, to use a Tibetan rope bridge to cross a river

where there

> is absolutely no other way to do it in a range of 200 miles.
>
> The arguments that led to the "lawsuit" could have been dealt with

quick and

> easily. Yes, maybe it could had, and it would be pointless and just

lead to

> more invectives to reason about why it didn't happen. But given you

think

> that both me and Scaurus had to be put into moderation or removed

from the

> list, I'd invite you to post the mail for which I should had been

dealt with

> in that way. Please, show me the insults I did throw to Scaurus

that are

> worthy of moderation, and I will apologize first, and then accept a

period

> of moderation. But before being put into such state, I hope I will

be

> allowed to show the huge list of the insults that I had to face

myself and

> that other cives had to face as well just in the last 3 weeks, and

I hope

> that the authors of them (several being not among the least in the

NR ranks)

> will have to apologize and be moderated as well. All of them.
>
> And finally. We do not have to obey to stupid laws? I doubt

that "it's a

> stupid law" raises to be a defence in any court and even if the

average man

> more than once in his life probably will consider it a good thing

to do, yet

> he will be the first one to yell when his neighbour invades his

garden

> because in his personal opinion the law about trespass is stupid.
>
> Yes, we can disobey the rules or laws we do not agree with, maybe

to make a

> political gesture by that, hoping the laws will be changed (and

that's, for

> me, especially true for unconstitutional laws or immoral laws):

Ghandi is an

> example of it and his civil disobedience is based on it (even if,

it has to

> be said the legal system he opposed wasn't unconstitutional or,

mostly,

> immoral). But in any case Ghandi did that well knowing and

accepting the

> legal consequences of his actions! To disobey to a rule or a law

just

> because we think it's stupid, and doing that and then complaining

because

> the legal system acts upon it, is against the most basic principle

of

> personal responsibility. One can say and do what he wants, but has

to be

> prepared to face the consequences of his actions and words.
>
> By repeating the invitation that I made to you 3 paragraphs above

and

> extending my respects to you,
>
> Vale
>
> DCF
>
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
>
> > -----Messaggio originale-----
> > Da: Marcus Cassius Julianus [mailto:cassius622@a...]
> > Inviato: sabato 22 maggio 2004 14.31
> > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Free Speech (was: Re: The recent legal

business

> > (Scaurus))
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > > G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.
> > >
> > > That the Censor would resign is a terrible thing, as he

obviously

> > > poured his heart and soul into Nova Roma. But it is a much

worse

> > > betrayal for those in positions of authority (tribunes,

pontiffs,

> > > etc.) in the State to turn their backs on the laws, even

outright

> > > declare their abhorrence for the laws, that bind the State
> > together. That the Pater Patriae would do so is almost

unimaginable.

> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > I can understand your implied argument that an absence of law can
> > lead to chaos and barbarism. I hope that you will come to

understand

> > my argument - that not all laws are good, sensible or productive
> > laws.
> >
> > The arguments that led to the "lawsuit" in question could have

been

> > dealt with quickly and easily. Such things are dealt with almost
> > effortlessly hundreds of times a day in other online forums.
> >
> > BOTH opponants should have been put on moderatated status (or
> > possibly even removed from the public forum entirely for a time)
> > until they cooled off, and agreed to play nice. It is as simple as
> > that; and our LAWS should be as simple as that.
> >
> > That is the sort of common sense law that we should have. That

sort

> > of common sense action is worth upholding when troubles arise.
> > Instead we have set up laws that can allow one Citizen to beat
> > another over the head with real "sticks and stones" because they
> > got "called names."
> >
> > When Citizens of any stripe, (privatus, magistrate, Pontifex,

etc.)

> > can't keep public control over what they write, they need to have

a

> > bucket of water dumped over them like cats in a fight... then they
> > need time to cool off until they can act civilized again. They

don't

> > need a formal process of leveling accusations at one another, and
> > polarizing the rest of the community while dragging all the other
> > Citizens into the same ultimately meaningless fight.
> >
> > We must not obey stupid laws simply because they are laws... we
> > should look at what the hell we're doing to ourselves and make

better

> > decisions. NOVA ROMA DOES NOT NEED A COMPLEX CODE OF CIVIL LAW as

a

> > replacement for simple list policies in our online forums.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > Pater Patriae
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

I don't see that it's quite as bad as that. Even if, despite all
assurances, the NR website completely vanished, NR itself has a
distributed infrastructure. Not only does it exist as a corporation,
it exists in dozens of Yahoo groups with interlocking memberships. In
my view, angry citizens gathering and murmering in our virtual
streets, but if our magistrates remain calm (as they are doing) and
act decisively (as they still might do) to address the problems, I
see no sign of immediate collapse. I find it harder to be sure that
we aren't entering a period of protracted decline and slow death, but
we won't know until our magistrates have had an opportunity to show
whether they grasp the problem and have a vision that can unite the
rest of us. Marinus' message, only a few minutes ago, indicated to me
that he does indeed grasp the problems and that he understands the
need to be reassuring, while strictly holding course. I have a deep
respect for our Consul and I'm willing to remain calm, not resign my
citizenship, and give him a chance to sort out the problems.

Vale,
Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@c...> wrote:

>
> In the past month and a half we've lost a Plebian Aedile, a
> Quaestor, for all practical purposes have no Praetors, and now

we've

> lost a Censor. When long term Nova Romans are dropping like flies
> out of disgust of what Nova Roma has become I say there is iminent
> threat to the continued existance of Nova Roma. Not so long ago
> one person shut down Nova Roma's main means of communication,
> fortunately Marcus Octavius Germanicus had a back up ready to run.
> All it takes now is Marcus Octavius Germanicus to flip one switch

to

> off and Nova Roma ceases to exist. I doubt he'd do that without
> warning, but that is all it takes.
>

Ave Cassius

No, it's not an ad hominem attack, or maybe it is, but is expressed in a
civil way, even if unsupported by any material evidence, and I'll accept it
as such.

Of course, I reject the definition of list troll, even if you are of course
entitled to think I am. In my defence, a list troll is someone who causes
discord for the enjoyment of seeing people debating. Personally, I may be
the object of the discord, but I didn't cause it. I wasn't the one calling
people names and enjoying myself in the not so noble art of vituperating the
others and my action was an act of self-defence within my rights, and qui
iure suo utitur, neminem ledit.

Anyway, I am sorry you have such opinion of me, and that when you expressed
it you decided not to address any of the argumentations I brought forward.
I'll just have to bear it and live with it, but it's sad, even if not
uncommon at all around here, to dismiss the ideas of the other cives with a
brief comment that, one way or the other, in a more or less virulent way,
always reads "your ideas are not worthy of being replied to because you are
intrinsically bad".

I still present my, and I hope you will take them as such, genuine respects

Vale

DCF

PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Marcus Cassius Julianus [mailto:cassius622@...]
> Inviato: sabato 22 maggio 2004 17.46
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: To Marcus Cassius Julianus and omnes (was: R: [Nova-Roma] Free
> Speech (was: Re: The recent legal business (Scaurus)))
>
> Salvete,
>
> Fuscus, I believe it will not be an 'ad hominem" attack to say that I
> believe you have been consciously acting as a "list troll,"
> deliberately spreading discord under the disguise of noble concepts
> such as "freedom of speech", "equality", "fairness", etc.
>
> This is actually a pretty well known Internet phenomenon; you
> certainly did not invent it. Many people who work to disrupt
> communities for fun post things they know will set others off in a
> very sincere, friendly and open manner... then they are well able to
> play the "victim" when others get upset.
>
> Formosanus and some of the people that went on to form the SVR used
> this particular tactic for many months. We're not all new folks
> here... many of us have seen this tactic again, and again, and again.
>
> I don't believe for a moment that you are some sort of "champion of
> the people" here to preserve the rights of others. If anything I
> believe your actions are a prime example of why we do NOT need "civil
> law" in Nova Roma... Citizens should not be allowed to bait other
> Citizens and then "sue" their enraged victim for damages when that
> person finally snaps.
>
> That kind of social play is about as admirable as 'bear baiting,' and
> should not be condoned in any civilized community.
>
> Vale,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus

Salve Senator Druse,

I have much to learn about all the legalities in Nova Roma and for
the time being I prefer to keep my own council on that.
I just want to say though that NR is very impressive looking and
well organized when you first enter as a citizen. The learning curve
is terrific and you get the gut feeling that you need to mind your
p's and q's lest you make an idiot of yourself or get a dressing
down from highly qualified people in this field.

Without going through a big legal debate, quoting all the laws,
fundementals of logic, rhetoric and all that good stuff I wish to
point out that the weakest point or vunerability in NR with all her
laws, organization, scholarship and government is that at any time
some s-disturber can walk off the street join our ranks then shake
Res Republica to her foundations. This has happened twice in the
last 20 months; these citizens were intelligent men to say the least
but I fear a barbarous lout ranting and raving on could achieve more
or less the same effect in future. Something needs to be done about
this. It has been said that freedom goes only as far as one person's
freedom does not interfere with the other person's freedom. In this
case, losing a censor and the possibility of one our greatest
classical academics and "my" Latin teacher is certainly beginning to
damn well interfere with mine!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus












--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> The System is destroying Nova Roma.
>
> Instead of fiddling while Nova Roma burns you need to look around

you.

> The organization is divided into hostile camps. Some Citizens hate
> each other with a passion. The number of citizens who bother paying
> taxes is absurdly low. We have major magistrates resigning or

missing

> in action.
>
> These stupid legal battles have created one crisis after another

and

> we are now in the worst one since since the Civil war 5 years ago

and

> may surpass that one before this plays out.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> <christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> > Salve Illustris L. Sicinius Drusus!
> >
> > An organisation needs laws/rules to follow when people don't

agree

> > and I support most of the existing laws of Nova Roma.
> >
> > I am dead against reducing the Populus to minors who only may

accept

> > what the "grown ups" in the Senate has approved. This will only

move

> > the fighting into the Senate and the citizens will not know what

is

> > going on.
> >
> > No, there is nothing wrong with our system, the checks and

balances

> > function well. But some citizens need to grow up and stop
> > name-calling. And we need one or maybe two new (more?) Praetors

(List

> > moderators) to "help" people to keep a decent level of debate on

the

> > main list.
> >
> > >In the early days of Roma leges were presented to the Comitia

in the

> > >form of a Sentus Consultum. I Suggest that Nova Roma ammend it's
> > >constitution to strip magistrates of the power to promulgate

leges

> > >without obtaining a Consulta from the Senate. Hopefully this

will

> > >reduce the legal arguments that have plagued Nova Roma for

years.

> > >
> > >L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > --
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> > Censor, Consularis et Senator
> > Proconsul Thules
> > Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> > Civis Romanus sum
> > ************************************************
> > Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> > "I'll either find a way or make one"
> > ************************************************
> > Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> > Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

G. Popillius Laenas A. Ambrosio Celetro

>>Ambrosius Celetrus <Aulus.Ambrosius.Celetrus@a...> wrote:

You will not be missed. Something truly good has come
out of this day.<<


You sir, have not been here in Nova Roma long enough to know how
ignorant and outrageous these statements are. A retraction and
apology might allow you to retain some dignitas.

Gaius Popilliua Laenas

Salve,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

Well spoken

>There is a decided double-standard in NR. Those who have clout
>can say what they like to anyone with less clout. Those who are new,
>who have not yet had the opportunity to climb the ladder or who are
>simply citizens with occasional opinions, must tread lightly when
>addressing their "betters". If I must I'll laboriously search the
>archives to locate a suitable number of examples to prove it, but to
>deny it is to simply employ a very selective memory.

et salvete omnes


I spoke with an other civis ,who spent more years in NR then me, about the ML here and he said: "normaly you will not find me on the ML. It is to dirty there!"
And well, he is absolutly right.

Everybody can see my profile if he likes. You will see i did not pay taxes this year. Why?? That is an easy answer. Latst year I joined after the taxation period and I thought by myself, well so I pay 2004 and use this year to go around in NR and may offer my help.
But hey, is someone really thinking I spend my money for a .org which represent itself in such a childishly way like in the last few weeks???

I wrote to people last year to offer my help and my time but nobody thought about to respond my e-mail. So what. Some people say they wanna see more who are working for NR but then they should answer the mails of people who want to to so. But it seems these so high respected people are just yapping around.
Some weeks ago I wrote to academia thules and what shall I say.... The same s@*t happend again. I am still waiting for a response. But let me say it clearly: I can spend my time in better ways then offering my time and my work for NR and always I don't get an answer.

I do not want to comment whose point of view is better, Scaurus' or Fuscus' . That is their problem and not my buisiness at all. But it seems a lot of people here on the ML are sticking their noses into everthing which is not their buisiness. Maybe they have to much time and are picking their noses because they are bored.

Maybe I will not get any response on my posting and of course I have to wait many hours before this will be on the ML because I am still moderated (and asking myself why and for what kind of reaon?)

I do not wonder why people go away or are fed up with this here. Sometimes I think I signed in a kindergarden but at the moment I fell more I am visiting a baby nursery in the past weeks.

And you, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, please do not say you are only working with people who also want to work. I am still waiting for your response of my e-mail I sent you in the middle of the last year over vour cohors stuff. Maybe you should give your workers coffee to do what they should do or just do it by yourself.

Like an other writer here said before. It is really cool to tell my friends about NR. But please, do not let them ask what we are doing here on the ML. What shall I say? That we are insulting others with offensive names and words??

Sometimes I think the people who are working here in a constructive way drown in the sea of childish discussions and chatterboxes.

To post something on the ML is like a play with the fire. But if i want to burn myself i will use my own kitchen and do not need this ML here

After all i beg you pardon for my English spelling, it is not my native language. But i tried it in Latin before but as always: no response. And I strongly thing German is also not common here.

Valete

Philippus Flavius Conservatus Maior








Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 22.05.04 07:28:01:

Salvete,

This latest argument has really cut to the bone for many people
here in NR. From my seat, it appears that both sides have some merit
and that one side or the other "winning" represents a loss for all
of us.

As to manners and insults, yes, it is all too common here to
receive the most aggressive nastiness in reply to well meant (or
not) posts. Though I've been a citizen for some time, I haven't
posted, or responded to discussions that interested me, since
shortly after I joined. In my limited communications with other
citizens, I know that I'm not alone in my hesitance to post or offer
an opinion in any discussion. The response someone who isn't from
the "good old days" receives is frequently one of derision and
insult. The only solution is to only post when you agree with
whichever side appears to winning the day for long enough to become
one of the old hats.

The frustration that I felt, and that many others have felt
before and since me, (as evidenced by the many summary rejections of
new people's thoughts, ideas and their very presence in the
archives), leads me to think that this day was a long time coming.

While I don't think that NR needs the overwhelming number of laws
that we have, the fact is that we have them and the means by which
to employ them in place. A very brief search of the archives
indicates that a great many laws that have no real usefulness in NR
as it is now were supported with vigor at the time.

There is a decided double-standard in NR. Those who have clout
can say what they like to anyone with less clout. Those who are new,
who have not yet had the opportunity to climb the ladder or who are
simply citizens with occasional opinions, must tread lightly when
addressing their "betters". If I must I'll laboriously search the
archives to locate a suitable number of examples to prove it, but to
deny it is to simply employ a very selective memory.

Even now, a joke (which was in very very bad taste but an obvious
joke or jibe) is swiftly punished, without fuss or hand wringing.
Whatever it was that pushed Fuscus over the edge, and I admit I
don't see it, has made it so that he has had enough. Unlike me, or
the many others who faded away, he isn't just going to take it,
despite the fact that the one he feels offended him has
significantly great clout.

So from my seat, very far back in the audience, I can't help but
lament that there is such a difference in what is acceptable
treatment of others depending on your NR Popularity Quotient. I also
think it a shame that we have such an enormous number of really
unneccessary laws and that moderation and peer pressure isn't enough
to create some semblance of equal treatment on the ML. If calling
people names is going to be enough to get sued, then there aren't
many people on here who shouldn't be in court.

It was such an ugly scene when that law was debated. It is
something of an irony to see it first utilized this way.


Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix





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---Salvete Modius Tribunis, Marcus Bianchus, Senator Palladius, et
alii who cry 'dictator'...

How dreadfully stupid do you think the populace and Senate is...those
who have followed the political dynamics of 'us' vs' 'them' and have
so reduced Nova Roma to such...??

Well, this is not a total suprise...and I wondered if this whole
scenerio of 'justice being denied due to lawsuits', and 'what kind of
injustice is this' hollored out by Modius immediately after,in Garden
of Gesthemane fashion, followed by other Arachneque misspinnings of
truths here and there by posters who would have the populace believe
that his whole thing is over the word 'buggar'.....

Nahh.. in my view after 4 years of citizenship, Marcus Octavius'
resignation, (and it is not definite nor official yet) presents many
splendored opportunities for those who are inches away from a majority
in terms of Senators who collectively see things 'their way, and
have 'their' vision of NR, which may or may not coincide with those
pesky 'laws'...his departure might certainly even out those odds...in
favour of those who would desire a dictatorship...Po hands Modius a
tissue to dry his tears, here's a whole box to share amongst yourself,
Palladius, Marcus Bianchus...ahh it is hard to emotionally reconcile
conservativism with the liberal component of emotionalism sometimes...

You cry his loss, there, there now, my poor dears...but without *any*
thought to the fact that he just might change his mind, or get a
better perspective on things..you *immediately* propose
dictatorship...yes, there are those who would love to have a
dictatorship, I am sure...and clean 'up' Nova Roma. Mind you, there
are other places the 'undesirables' can go,be they practitioner or
nonpractitioner, and judging by the unfortunate degree of tax payment,
one might speculate that the final product of such a 'dictatorship'
will be a small electronic group full of 'big chiefs' with few or no
braves...

Oh, there is much to be gained from what I rather perceived as an
'academy performance' from the beginning... a few people really need
to work on their acting skills.....

I have always had difficulty with persons who 'pretend' to be the
friends of another, who might be paying lip service, but in doing so
are taking advantage of the situation, one that was perhaps fabricated
for a more partisan purpose? Haven't 'you' always had trouble with
people like this, Modius, Bianchus, Palladius? Most people do.

If you have difficulty sleeping at night, as a side note, which
somehow pops into my mind, I suggest that you visit a pharmacist for
some medication to assist you...now 'why' I would remotely imagine
that you might have trouble sleeping at night...well I shall leave
that up for speculation...:0

And now, I will close, because I am lamenting a notion that I hoped
would truly be grandiose...but moreover, as one who remembers Marcus
Octavius as just Marcus Octavius or "Matt Hucke", the times we did not
agree..Ohhh yeaah... his faults, my faults, and remembers the good
stuff too, I am going to bed after a 12 hour shift, feeling remorse,
with a prayer that he will come back...because, basically, well, I
like the guy...he does not have to be 'perfect'..hell, am I? But I do
not wish to see him throw away all that he is done, for those who
might wish to undo it on a whim, and in my case it was people who
'pretended' to be my friends...

Strange how history repeats itself, isn't it?

Pompeia




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:

> Gaius Modius Athanasius Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit
>
> It seems, at least to me, that Nova Roma puts far too much emphasis

upon the office of Praetor. Yes, we have some missing Praetors -- sad
indeed (pathetic actually). Should that cause such a problem when we
have two active Consuls.

>
> The Consuls *CAN* step in and do the job of the Praetors if the

Praetors are absent. Especially since the Praetors are
"co-vice-presidents" of the corporation, Nova Roma Inc. I'm not going
to be fooled into thinking that we are crippled without active praetors.

>
> If Nova Roma was without both Consuls and both Praetors then there

would be a problem, but we are not without both.

>
> So I am wondering *why* these silly lawsuits have not been dismissed

outright by the Consuls, since the Praetors have obviously forgotted
their duties.

>
> We are in such disappointing times, maybe the Senate should consider

appointing a dictator to clean up Nova Roma.

>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2004 12:26:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

spqr753@m... writes:

>
> > Salve Romans
> >
> > I have no opinion as to the rightness or wrongness of the current

lawsuits in NR but Just for augments sake lets say there are three
even four law suits filled.

> >
> > Are four lawsuits going to kill the Roman state?
> >
> > Another question, while the Consuls and the Tribunes are searching

for a solution to our first missing Praetor problem.

> >
> > WHERE THE HELL IS THE OTHER PRAETOR????? CAN HE NOT FIND
> > HIS WAY TO A COMPUTER???
> >
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Salve!

I am not sure I agree with the term hysterical, HOWEVER what a some people fail to remember is that is your opinion and I for one am glad to have it. Our difference of opinion can make us strong.

Is a dictator is needed to save Nova Roma? I do not know. Have things gotten to the point of being broken so badly that it would be the only remaining solution? I do not know. In my statement, I hoped that all of Nova Roma would step back and look at where we have been, and where we are going. To remember that if things have gotten to a point or maybe I should say could get to a point where the Senate can and I think should step in on behalf of the people to save Nova Roma.

Pax!
mTv


Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:

I do not share the hysterical belief that "Maybe the Senate could intervene like they did on July 4, 1999 to save Nova Roma." A dictator is the last thing we need. We may have a pair of missing Praetors and a newly vacant Censors office to fill but the barbarians are not at the gates and we need to keep our head about us. We have a good and decent Consul who is still hard at work as well as five dedicated Tribunes who are all on the job. We have two great Curule Aediles and one Plebeian Aediles also hard at work. Along with our Quaestors and the staffs of the different magistrates the Government of Nova Roma is on a stead if uncharted course to the future. We have citizens that have come forward to stand for the vacant offices of Quaestor, Plebeian Aedile, and once there is an opening in the Praetors office, candidates for that as well. And we have a group of dedicated Rogators ready and willing to conduct a fair election when call upon to do so. We do need candidates to stand
for the office of Curator Araneum.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve omnes,

I work with laws and court orders daily. I draft laws and
regulations. I daily battle with incompetent lawyers who bill their
clients large amounts to obtain orders that are verbal garbage.
They often say the complete opposite of what was intended leaving
the client furious and out of pocket as I have to tell them that the
enforcement they desire or that they desire to be rid of either
cannot occur or has to stay in place. I deal with the rulings of
a "professional" judiciary that leave me speechless as to relevance
and grounds for such rulings.

If I can claim one thing it would be as an "expert" in this area,
and no I am not a lawyer, and I give profound thanks for that as
most I meet have no idea how to word orders and few can draft
legislation.

If you do me the courtesy of allowing me that "status" then as
an "expert" I am telling you that our "judicial" system is not up to
the task of delivering fair, impartial and relevant judgements. That
assessment is based on reading the laws and seeing the loop holes
that exist.

I think it is incredibly dangerous, inherently unfair and to a large
extent pointless to take this skeleton of law (not even fleshed or
possessed of organs yet) and force a citizen into the mincing
machine of a trial. Will it provide "case law"? No because case law
as you know it doesn't have the same meaning in Roman (and thus Nova
Roman) law. Even if you legislated that into existence, for the sake
of all the Gods, this is a small community. I cannot believe that
people I have found a fair degree of common cause with over the
issue of civility now wish to put a bag over their head and ignore
that this one day may be them standing in our virtual drum head
trials.

Drum head trials are what we will have. Arbitary decisions made on
the basis of shaky incomplete laws. The only reason I conclude that
names that I would have expected to see ranged alongside me on this
issue, are firmly planted in the camp of "sue him, prosecute him" is
that the defendant in this case is Scaurus. That leaves me
profoundly disappointed in some people's ability to rise above
factional discord and evalutae a situation based on the common good.

In closing - as an expert in prosecutions - you who blindly rush
towards trials and those who facilitate this by doing nothing to
stop it or making the way easier by various posts have the right to
do this. You will however regret it either when you find yourself on
trial or when Nova Roma starts to lose people over law suits. Yes
they have left over civility. If silly factionally motivated law
suits become the norm then they will leave for that added reason as
well.

If you who read this regard a trial as some sort of jolly jape and a
way to shove it to your opponents, then clearly this place has the
same value to you as an RPG. I suggest you go find an appropriate
game to participate in. Search on:

http://valueless_incompetent_wouldbe_lawyers_and_opportunistic_politi
cians_at_trial.com

If it doesn't exist - create it. You already appear to fit the roles.

Vale
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

Salvete Quirites, et salve Tiberi Galeri,

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus writes:
[...]

> A dictator is the last thing we need.

Thank you, Tribune Galerius. Should extraordinary powers be needed, I
can ask the Senate for a Senatus Consultum Ultimum. But even that may
not be needed.

> We have a good and decent Consul who is still hard at work

Thank you Tribune.

> as well as five dedicated Tribunes who are all on the job.

Indeed you all are.

> We have two great Curule Aediles

One now, it grieves me to report. I have received the resignation of
Gaius Iulius Scaurus from Nova Roma and his various offices. I would
ask all Nova Romans to join with me in mourning this decision, and
asking the Di Immortales to prevail upon Scaurus to reconsider and
return to us. I also ask that people not fill this list with
speculations about his reasons. I think I can go so far as to say that
he's not resigning over the legal issues brought by Fuscus, and beyond
that, it's not my story to tell.

> and one Plebeian Aediles also hard at work.

Indeed. Today is also her wedding day. I'd ask all of you to take a
moment to send best wishes to Emilia Finnica on the occassion of her
marriage.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus

Salvete Omnes,

The second item of horrible news to befall Nova Roma this weekend.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad. It seems that
the Gods wish to destroy Nova Roma, for they have inflicted a madness
apon us which has cost us the services of at least two of our most
valued citizens. I say at least because I have no way of knowing how
many others have become disgusted with Nova Roma over recent events
and who will resign or vanish.

This is a sad day, but I fear that we haven't seen the end of ill news
this month.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...>
wrote:

> One now, it grieves me to report. I have received the resignation of
> Gaius Iulius Scaurus from Nova Roma and his various offices. I would
> ask all Nova Romans to join with me in mourning this decision, and
> asking the Di Immortales to prevail upon Scaurus to reconsider and
> return to us. I also ask that people not fill this list with
> speculations about his reasons. I think I can go so far as to say that
> he's not resigning over the legal issues brought by Fuscus, and beyond
> that, it's not my story to tell.

Salvete Quirites, et salve Philippe Flavi,

[...]

> I wrote to people last year to offer my help and my time but
> nobody thought about to respond my e-mail.

I don't recall you writing to me. If you did, I most certainly would
have replied, if only to let you know that I didn't really need another
Aedilean scribe just then.

I do appreciate your frustration, and the frustration of all who have
commented on this matter.

If you would like to participate in the work of the Republic, you will
first have to pay your tax. After that, one of our magistrates may be
able to find a post for you among their scribae.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Salvete Omnes,

I awake this morning to catch up on about 100 posts and see things
go from bad to worse.

I can only echo the laments of my friend Drusus. If I had a black
toga, I would indeed don it.

Gaius Popillius Laenas


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The second item of horrible news to befall Nova Roma this weekend.
>
> Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad. It seems

that

> the Gods wish to destroy Nova Roma, for they have inflicted a

madness

> apon us which has cost us the services of at least two of our most
> valued citizens. I say at least because I have no way of knowing

how

> many others have become disgusted with Nova Roma over recent events
> and who will resign or vanish.
>
> This is a sad day, but I fear that we haven't seen the end of ill

news

> this month.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
> Pontifex
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

<gawne@c...>

> wrote:
>
> > One now, it grieves me to report. I have received the

resignation of

> > Gaius Iulius Scaurus from Nova Roma and his various offices. I

would

> > ask all Nova Romans to join with me in mourning this decision,

and

> > asking the Di Immortales to prevail upon Scaurus to reconsider

and

> > return to us. I also ask that people not fill this list with
> > speculations about his reasons. I think I can go so far as to

say that

> > he's not resigning over the legal issues brought by Fuscus, and

beyond

> > that, it's not my story to tell.

A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator L. Sicinius
Drusus, and to all his fellow-citizens and all
peregrines, greetings.

Forgive me, everyone, if I appear absurdly optimistic
by attempting to start a discussion about Roman
history amidst all this confusion. But on the other
hand, perhaps now is a good time for us to do
something normal, before we forget how.

Senator, you wrote:

> In the early days of Roma leges were presented to
> the Comitia in the
> form of a Sentus Consultum. I Suggest that Nova
> Roma ammend it's
> constitution to strip magistrates of the power to
> promulgate leges
> without obtaining a Consulta from the Senate.
> Hopefully this will
> reduce the legal arguments that have plagued Nova
> Roma for years.

I think what you're talking about here is the patrum
auctoritas, which is something I too have been reading
and thinking about recently.

We read in Livy that in 339 BC was passed the lex
Publilia Philonis, which stated that the patrum
auctoritas had to be given to a proposal before it was
voted on by the assembly, not after (as previously).

No one knows precisely what the patrum auctoritas was.
Certainly it was some form of senatorial approval
which was required before a bill could become law.
Evidently before 339 it had been given (or witheld)
after the assembly had voted. Livy makes it clear that
the lex Publilia was extremely popular with the
plebeians, which suggests that moving the patrum
auctoritas from after the assembly vote to before in
some way reduced the power of the senate to block
legislation.

Many historians think that the patrum auctoritas was
the senate's agreement that a bill was written in the
correct format, or contained no loopholes, or
conformed to some other formal requirements. Thus
before 339 the senate had been able to effectively
veto a bill which had already been approved by the
assembly, because it could say, 'the wording is
incorrect, so the law is invalid'. After 339, the
senate had to scrutinise the wording beforehand to
make sure that it was not invalid. Presumably if it
found some problem, the drafters would correct it
before putting it to a vote of the assembly; so now if
the senate later said, 'the wording is invalid', the
magistrates could say, 'no, you checked it beforehand
and said it was okay'.

Whatever the patrum auctoritas actually was, it's
clear that it was *not* a statement of the senate's
approval of the general principles which a bill
contained, for we have many records of laws being
passed of which the senate disapproved, and yet these
laws must have been given the patrum auctoritas, or
else they could not have been brought before the
assembly in the first place.

So your suggestion lacks historical precedent,
Senator. There was never any law in Rome which
prevented magistrates from proposing legislation
without obtaining the prior approval of the senate for
its contents. It was, it's true, customary for the
consuls to seek the advice of the senate before taking
important actions; and perhaps that custom would
prevail here also, if senatus consulta were not
legally binding (which, historically, they were not).
But you see, in Nova Roma senatus consulta have legal
force, which means that a Nova Roman magistrate who
asks the senate's advice on whether to present a
certain bill will be legally prevented from proposing
that bill if the senate advises him not to do it. Is
it any wonder that magistrates prefer not to seek the
advice of the senate? Now, if we were to move to a
historically accurate arrangement whereby senatus
consulta had no legal force (except perhaps within the
limited areas for which the senate has always
traditionally been responsible, namely financial
matters and foreign policy), perhaps magistrates would
be much more willing to bring their ideas before the
senate for its opinion and suggestions. Perhaps we
could even make it compulsory for a magistrate to seek
the senate's advice before promulgating a bill. What
do you think? Shall we two join forces and present the
consuls with a proposal to deprive senatus consulta of
legal force and make it compulsory for curule
magistrates to seek the advice of the senate before
proposing bills to the assembly? Or would you prefer
to keep the unhistorical powers the senate already has?





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Salve Consul Marine,

I agree with you here for the most part. There were quite a few
other issues as you surmise but I figure that Fucus' situation might
be regarded as the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm also going to also pray that the immortals will prevail upon
Scaurus to change his mind. Hopefully other Nova Romans will do the
same.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus









Gaius Iulius Scaurus from Nova Roma and his various offices. I
would

> ask all Nova Romans to join with me in mourning this decision, and
> asking the Di Immortales to prevail upon Scaurus to reconsider and
> return to us. I also ask that people not fill this list with
> speculations about his reasons. I think I can go so far as to say

that

> he's not resigning over the legal issues brought by Fuscus, and

beyond

> that, it's not my story to tell.
>
>

In a message dated 5/22/04 6:56:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
artorus@... writes:

> I am against throwing awy the Lex. It is not the lex that is wrong,
> >with a functioning Praetor it is fair. This is just a way for the
> >Bonit o throw down everything. As they can't build up, they want to
> >demolish. That way they create a feeling of Chaos and will have a
> >chance to take over. Please don't back down!
> >
>
>
>

We have nothing to do with this. It was on your recomendation that these two
clients were elected as Praetor, and they vanished. Not one Boni candidate
in a major magistery ever resigned or disappeared from office going back to
the days of the original faction.
Keep this in mind, citizens, the next time the cohors says "have I got a
candidate for you?"

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The present system of passing laws is tearing Nova Roma apart. If you
want a purely historic example when Roma had a population and age
comparable to that of Nova Roma present numbers King Romulus was
ruling, there were no magistrates, the Comitia Curatia was the only
comitia and leges were proposed by the king with the advice of the Senate.

Bringing the people into finicial matters will only increase the
number of arguments that are destroying Nova Roma rather than
decreasing them.

Arguments over laws are destroying Nova Roma. If it isn't ended there
won't be a Nova Roma to be Historic or Modern.

Nova Roma's self destruction will end all of the damn legal arguments
once and for all. The question isn't if we are going to continue this
bickering over laws, one way or another that is going to end. The
Question is will there be a Nova Roma?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator L. Sicinius
> Drusus, and to all his fellow-citizens and all
> peregrines, greetings.
>
> Forgive me, everyone, if I appear absurdly optimistic
> by attempting to start a discussion about Roman
> history amidst all this confusion. But on the other
> hand, perhaps now is a good time for us to do
> something normal, before we forget how.
>
> Senator, you wrote:
>
> > In the early days of Roma leges were presented to
> > the Comitia in the
> > form of a Sentus Consultum. I Suggest that Nova
> > Roma ammend it's
> > constitution to strip magistrates of the power to
> > promulgate leges
> > without obtaining a Consulta from the Senate.
> > Hopefully this will
> > reduce the legal arguments that have plagued Nova
> > Roma for years.
>
> I think what you're talking about here is the patrum
> auctoritas, which is something I too have been reading
> and thinking about recently.
>
> We read in Livy that in 339 BC was passed the lex
> Publilia Philonis, which stated that the patrum
> auctoritas had to be given to a proposal before it was
> voted on by the assembly, not after (as previously).
>
> No one knows precisely what the patrum auctoritas was.
> Certainly it was some form of senatorial approval
> which was required before a bill could become law.
> Evidently before 339 it had been given (or witheld)
> after the assembly had voted. Livy makes it clear that
> the lex Publilia was extremely popular with the
> plebeians, which suggests that moving the patrum
> auctoritas from after the assembly vote to before in
> some way reduced the power of the senate to block
> legislation.
>
> Many historians think that the patrum auctoritas was
> the senate's agreement that a bill was written in the
> correct format, or contained no loopholes, or
> conformed to some other formal requirements. Thus
> before 339 the senate had been able to effectively
> veto a bill which had already been approved by the
> assembly, because it could say, 'the wording is
> incorrect, so the law is invalid'. After 339, the
> senate had to scrutinise the wording beforehand to
> make sure that it was not invalid. Presumably if it
> found some problem, the drafters would correct it
> before putting it to a vote of the assembly; so now if
> the senate later said, 'the wording is invalid', the
> magistrates could say, 'no, you checked it beforehand
> and said it was okay'.
>
> Whatever the patrum auctoritas actually was, it's
> clear that it was *not* a statement of the senate's
> approval of the general principles which a bill
> contained, for we have many records of laws being
> passed of which the senate disapproved, and yet these
> laws must have been given the patrum auctoritas, or
> else they could not have been brought before the
> assembly in the first place.
>
> So your suggestion lacks historical precedent,
> Senator. There was never any law in Rome which
> prevented magistrates from proposing legislation
> without obtaining the prior approval of the senate for
> its contents. It was, it's true, customary for the
> consuls to seek the advice of the senate before taking
> important actions; and perhaps that custom would
> prevail here also, if senatus consulta were not
> legally binding (which, historically, they were not).
> But you see, in Nova Roma senatus consulta have legal
> force, which means that a Nova Roman magistrate who
> asks the senate's advice on whether to present a
> certain bill will be legally prevented from proposing
> that bill if the senate advises him not to do it. Is
> it any wonder that magistrates prefer not to seek the
> advice of the senate? Now, if we were to move to a
> historically accurate arrangement whereby senatus
> consulta had no legal force (except perhaps within the
> limited areas for which the senate has always
> traditionally been responsible, namely financial
> matters and foreign policy), perhaps magistrates would
> be much more willing to bring their ideas before the
> senate for its opinion and suggestions. Perhaps we
> could even make it compulsory for a magistrate to seek
> the senate's advice before promulgating a bill. What
> do you think? Shall we two join forces and present the
> consuls with a proposal to deprive senatus consulta of
> legal force and make it compulsory for curule
> magistrates to seek the advice of the senate before
> proposing bills to the assembly? Or would you prefer
> to keep the unhistorical powers the senate already has?
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

Salve Honorable Philippus Flavius Conservatus Maior!

>Some weeks ago I wrote to academia thules and what shall I say....
>The same s@*t happend again. I am still waiting for a response.

There is a natural explanation for this as the Procurator Illustrus
Caius Curius Saturninus is marrying _today_ and I know he has been
busy with preparations for a few weeks, added to that he is one of
the Consular Quaestors, so so I know that he has been busy. I will cc
him here and after his marriage and a week or two You will get an
answer from him, I am sure.

>But let me say it clearly: I can spend my time in better ways then
>offering my time and my work for NR and always I don't get an answer.
>
>And you, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, please do not say you are only
>working with people who also want to work. I am still waiting for
>your response of my e-mail I sent you in the middle of the last year
>over vour cohors stuff.

You should first ask me if I have recieved any mail from You.
_Nothing_ will be better in Nova Roma if we keep insulting each
other. I _haven't _ recieved any mail from You, as far as I can see.
My archive goes back more than four years and I can't find any mail
from You at all.

If You are interested in working with Censorial tasks please contact
me on my private address (You can see it above) and then we can
discuss it personally. But remember I don't just appoint people I
want some dedication too. Remember that I am not saying that You are
not dedicated, but we need to talk.

I always try to answer such mail as yours, but lately I have found
myself to be more and more after my schedule, because of the heavy
Censorial work. Such episodes like these days doesn't help either, as
we have lost a "few" people lately.

>Maybe you should give your workers coffee to do what they should do
>or just do it by yourself.

My Scribae are working really hard, to be able to appoint such
Scribae is one reason why I _select_ my Scribae.

Remember that English isn't my native language either. I am a Swede.

I am cc You privately too to be sure that You get this mail.

>Valete
>
>Philippus Flavius Conservatus Maior

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sabina_equitia_doris"
<doris-butler@s...> wrote:

> Incidentally, opposition to animal sacrifice is not merely some
> modern politically correct whim. My opposition to the bloody
> practise is soundly based in Advaita Vedanta, a philosophy which
> antedates Rome by a few *thousand* years and which was well known
> throughout the ancient world, echoed and espoused by Pythagoras.

Our intrest is the Religio ROMANA, not that of the Indians, nor for
that mater the religions of the Greeks, Egyptians, Celts, Babylonians,
Wiccans, Neanderthals, Raelins, Moonies, nor any other group. This is
Nova ROMA, not a Hari Krishna or Pythagorian cult.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

Ex officio Tiberius Galerius Paulinus, Tribunus Plebs

Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus has added a third additional item (XII) below,
concerning Senate ratification of the Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinarii,
which would amend the Constitution to clarify the procedure for declaring a magistrate of
the ordinarii to be missing.

This session shall last from 17:00 in Rome (CET) ante diem XV Kal.
IVNIAS MMDCCLVII a.u.c. (May 18th) until until dusk in Rome
(20:30 CET), a.d. XI Kal. IVNIAS MMDCCLVII a.u.c. (May 22nd).

Voting shall start immediately thereafter, lasting until dusk in Rome
(20:30 CET), pridie Kal. IVNIAS MMDCCLVII a.u.c. (May 31st). Senators
should note that XXI and XXIII Mai are Nefastus Publicus days, and that
XXII and XXIV Mai are Dies Fastus. All other days are Dies Comitialus.
I have provided additional days in the schedule to accommodate the
restrictions of the religious calendar.

Subtract 6 hours from the time in Rome to determine the time on the
East Coast of North America. Half past noon in Rome is therefore 6:30
AM in New York City.

--------------------

AGENDA:

I. Prorogation of Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus as Propraetor America
Medioccidentalis Superior.

II. Prorogation of Marcus Darius Firmitus as Propraetor of Canada
Orientalis.

III. Prorogation of Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus as Propraetor
of Venedia.

IV. Approval of Gaia Fabia Livia as Propraetor of Britannia.

V. Approval of Lucius Rutilius Minervalis as Propraetor of Gallia.

VI. Approval of Senatus Consultum to waive assiduus requirement for C.
Argentinus Cicero, to be eligible for appointment as propraetor of
Argentina.

VII. Approval of Caius Argentinus Cicero as propraetor of Argentina.

VIII. Approval of Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus as Translator of
Polish.

IX. Withdrawal of Nova Roma sponsorship from the Ludus Magnus
Gladiatorial Academy, a former unit of Legio XXIV Mediatlantica and now
a separate organization.

X. Approval of the Senatus Consultum concerning the association of
Balticum with Venedia.

XI. Revocation of the Senatus Consultum of 11/09/2000 entitled "The
Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius Iulianus."

XII. Approval of the Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinarii, an amendment to
the Constitution which has yet to be presented to the Comitia Centuriata.

Text of the proposed amendment

Article IV of the Nova Roma Constitution is amended to read as follows.

IV. Magistrates are the elected and appointed officials responsible for
the maintenance and conduct of the affairs of state. There are two
categories of magistrates: ordinarii (those who are ordinarily elected)
and extraordinarii (those who are only occasionally appointed or
elected). Qualifications necessary to hold these positions may be
enacted by law properly passed by one of the comitia.

The ordinarii, in decreasing order of authority, are as follows. Should
an office in mid-term become vacant, and a vacancy shall
have occurred if the magistrate resigns, dies while in office or has not been
for in contact for a period of two months. The Censors will declare
publicly that they have tried and failed to find the missing
magistrate and if suitable candidates are at hand, an election shall be
held in the appropriate comitia to elect a successor to serve out the
remainder of the term within forty-five days of the censors public
declaration. Should one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his
duties, as defined by the comitia that elected him, that magistrate may
be removed by a law originating in the comitia that elected him.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Druse,

Perhaps one day you'll learn to read properly what others say. Until this day
I have nothing else to say to you. Good day.

Moravius Laureatus


In a message dated 22/05/04 03:07:55 GMT Daylight Time,
drusus@... writes:

> Gaius Iulius fully understands the concept of being a Roman, instead
> of being a frat boy at a Toga party who thinks donning a bed sheet
> makes him into a Roman.
>
> We have far too many of the later running around Nova Roma. People who
> have seen Gladiator and read McCallugh's Novels and who think that
> makes them experts on being Romans.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> >Salve Censor Germanice,
> >
> >You said :
> >
> >n a message dated 21/05/04 19:41:29 GMT Daylight Time, hucke@c...
> >writes:
> >
> >>I say with confidence that G. Iulius Scaurus is a better Roman and
> >>a better human being than the kiddie lawyer who is persecuting him.
> >>
> >
> >How can one individual be a better "roman" than somebody else ?
> being roman
> >has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge you possess, where
> you live or
> >how obedient you are to the Religio. Being Roman is an intimate
> journey that
> >most of us have taken. On this journey there are no "better" road :
> They all
> >lead to Rome, eventually...
> >
> >Vale
> >
> >Moravius Laureatus
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marcus Traianus Valerius

No offence was intended. You simply wrote down the feelings that a number of citizens were voicing at the same time and I liked your phraseology best. So I used yours to illustrate my belief the we can work this out and without a dictator. Having studied the archives from that time and having come to some disturbing conclusions about the last dictatorship, I would not want to see it happen again. I trust the Consuls, the Senate, the Tribunes and the Comitas to be able to work out our problems and move on.

If our institutions can not fix our problems using the methods enshrined in the Nova Roma constitution then we are just role-playing and I for one have no time for that.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Traianus Valerius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The future


Salve!

I am not sure I agree with the term hysterical, HOWEVER what a some people fail to remember is that is your opinion and I for one am glad to have it. Our difference of opinion can make us strong.

Is a dictator is needed to save Nova Roma? I do not know. Have things gotten to the point of being broken so badly that it would be the only remaining solution? I do not know. In my statement, I hoped that all of Nova Roma would step back and look at where we have been, and where we are going. To remember that if things have gotten to a point or maybe I should say could get to a point where the Senate can and I think should step in on behalf of the people to save Nova Roma.

Pax!
mTv


Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:

I do not share the hysterical belief that "Maybe the Senate could intervene like they did on July 4, 1999 to save Nova Roma." A dictator is the last thing we need. We may have a pair of missing Praetors and a newly vacant Censors office to fill but the barbarians are not at the gates and we need to keep our head about us. We have a good and decent Consul who is still hard at work as well as five dedicated Tribunes who are all on the job. We have two great Curule Aediles and one Plebeian Aediles also hard at work. Along with our Quaestors and the staffs of the different magistrates the Government of Nova Roma is on a stead if uncharted course to the future. We have citizens that have come forward to stand for the vacant offices of Quaestor, Plebeian Aedile, and once there is an opening in the Praetors office, candidates for that as well. And we have a group of dedicated Rogators ready and willing to conduct a fair election when call upon to do so. We do need candidates to stand
for the office of Curator Araneum.


------------------------------------------------------------
Gens Traiana Home Page
www.geocities.com/genstraiana

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pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:
---Salvete Modius Tribunis, Marcus Bianchus, Senator Palladius, et
alii who cry 'dictator'...

How dreadfully stupid do you think the populace and Senate is...those
who have followed the political dynamics of 'us' vs' 'them' and have
so reduced Nova Roma to such...??

Marcus Bianchius (Not Historical) Antonius: I do not think the populace and Senate are stupid. I never said they were. I feel (and have felt for awhile) that we are getting of track. We are here to build Rome in the modern world. I think we have taken a path that is destroying that dream by making a law for everything.

Well, this is not a total suprise...and I wondered if this whole
scenerio of 'justice being denied due to lawsuits', and 'what kind of
injustice is this' hollored out by Modius immediately after,in Garden
of Gesthemane fashion, followed by other Arachneque misspinnings of
truths here and there by posters who would have the populace believe
that his whole thing is over the word 'buggar'.....

Marcus Bianchius (Still Not Historical) Antonius: I actually believe this whole thing (of the laws exploding in our face) was due to the word "buggar" (sic). We are a law heavy organization where abuses can run from here to Tibet and back without getting winded. I think we have lost site of our goals and instead want to bicker and resign 90% of the time.

Nahh.. in my view after 4 years of citizenship, Marcus Octavius'
resignation, (and it is not definite nor official yet) presents many
splendored opportunities for those who are inches away from a majority
in terms of Senators who collectively see things 'their way, and
have 'their' vision of NR, which may or may not coincide with those
pesky 'laws'...his departure might certainly even out those odds...in
favour of those who would desire a dictatorship...Po hands Modius a
tissue to dry his tears, here's a whole box to share amongst yourself,
Palladius, Marcus Bianchus...ahh it is hard to emotionally reconcile
conservativism with the liberal component of emotionalism sometimes...

Marcus Bianchius (Why be Historical when the censors approved the name?) Antonius: You lost me here...sorry, I must not be on your high. The "us" vs "them"....which one am I? Which one are you? Are we on the same side here? What does "us" want to set as the future of Nova Roma vs the "them"?

is loss, there, there now, my poor dears...but without *any*
thought to the fact that he just might change his mind, or get a
better perspective on things..you *immediately* propose
dictatorship...yes, there are those who would love to have a
dictatorship, I am sure...and clean 'up' Nova Roma. Mind you, there
are other places the 'undesirables' can go,be they practitioner or
nonpractitioner, and judging by the unfortunate degree of tax payment,
one might speculate that the final product of such a 'dictatorship'
will be a small electronic group full of 'big chiefs' with few or no
braves...

Marcus Bianchi (From bianco, meaning white, possibly originally a nickname referring to a very light complexion, or connected as in Florence to a political faction (supporting the Pope against the King)) Antonius: Damn and I lost now!

Oh, there is much to be gained from what I rather perceived as an
'academy performance' from the beginning... a few people really need
to work on their acting skills.....

Marcus Bianchius (I am rather fond of the name myself) Antonius: Sarcasm is very difficult to write on a computer. Sorry.

I have always had difficulty with persons who 'pretend' to be the
friends of another, who might be paying lip service, but in doing so
are taking advantage of the situation, one that was perhaps fabricated
for a more partisan purpose? Haven't 'you' always had trouble with
people like this, Modius, Bianchus, Palladius? Most people do.


Marcus Bianchius (Name crisis in Nova Roma, film at 11) Antonius: I do not pretend to be anyones friend. I do not really know most of the people in Nova Roma. I know Germanicus very well. He has been to my place twice, I to his Once and we eat and drink and have a good time. I count him as a friend and have never given an indication otherwise. I count Sulla as a friend, we have talked may hours on ICQ. (Does that make me and "us" and a "them" becuase both rarely agree on anything?) All of my legates and procuators and sciba are my friends and they are very different....I think I hold every point of view...Hell, I must be John Kerry.


you have difficulty sleeping at night, as a side note, which
somehow pops into my mind, I suggest that you visit a pharmacist for
some medication to assist you...now 'why' I would remotely imagine
that you might have trouble sleeping at night...well I shall leave
that up for speculation...:0

Marcus Bianchius (My name is quite important to me, just like that guy who was annoyed that I used the word "mundane" when referring to our macronational name when I posted some edicts awhile ago - no disrespect intended, I just cannot recall his Nova Roma name) Antonius:No difficulty sleeping...I am trying to make Nova Roma a real place where like minded people can gather and talk and eat and have a good time sharing their interests. That is why I am a Propraetor. I want Lacus Magni to flourish. I am lucky to have such good and enthusiastic people as Germanicus, Sulla, my legates and Procuator helping me out.


Hucke", the times we did not
agree..Ohhh yeaah... his faults, my faults, and remembers the good
stuff too, I am going to bed after a 12 hour shift, feeling remorse,
with a prayer that he will come back...because, basically, well, I
like the guy...he does not have to be 'perfect'..hell, am I? But I do
not wish to see him throw away all that he is done, for those who
might wish to undo it on a whim, and in my case it was people who
'pretended' to be my friends...


Strange how history repeats itself, isn't it?

Marcus Bianchius Antonius: Not when we keep doing the same things over and over again. I hope we learn from our mistakes before Nova Roma splits into the "us" vs "them" you talk about. Pompria Minucia Tiberia, I would be happy to talk to you further and perhaps we can make Nova Roma a better place. I then would not have to pretend to pretend that I totally understood what you are talking about, instead we can discuss this like Roman citizens. Let me know by e-mailing me privately.



Pompeia

Vale,





Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
Paterfamilias, gens Bianchia
Quaestor, Nova Roma

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Galeri Pauline,

In a message dated 22/05/04 14:58:47 GMT Daylight Time, spqr753@...
writes:

> Why was it ok, even good, to legislate all this and now when someone uses
> it ( I do not pass judgment on the merits of the cases pro or con) the sky is
> falling? It most assuredly is not the time for a dictator. It is a time for
> people to work a little harder at their give tasks and to step up to the
> plate and offer your services if not already engaged. We currently have only one
> Censor and no official Curator Araneun if any citizen has computer skills of
> an advanced level it might help if you were to offer your services to our
> Censor and or the Consuls

Laws are good to some people until they actually highlight their own
shortcomings...The gods know how much I am learning on a personal level today, reading
all these outraged cries of law givers turning sour now...Dura Lex Sed Lex !
(aternatively we could try anarchy but then I am not strong enough to be a
bully ;-))

Moravius Laureatus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are the one who fails in reading comprehension.

Many of the people running around Nova Roma don't have the foggiest
notion of what being a Roman entails. It takes more than a pass of the
Censors magic mouse to create a Roman.

Giaus Iulius is far more Roman than the vast majority of the people in
this organization and no fuzzy feelings, no aimless desires, nor any
number of self delarations of Romaness will change that fact.

If a real Roman could step into a time machine and visit Nova Roma he
would fall on the floor laughing at the pretentions of the self
declared "Romans" running around Nova Roma with no clue about Roma, No
desire to learn about Roma, and who bleat out "the best of" every time
it's pointed out that they are clueless frat boys in bedsheets, not
Romans.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> Salve Druse,
>
> Perhaps one day you'll learn to read properly what others say. Until
this day
> I have nothing else to say to you. Good day.
>
> Moravius Laureatus
>
>
> In a message dated 22/05/04 03:07:55 GMT Daylight Time,
> drusus@b... writes:
>
> > Gaius Iulius fully understands the concept of being a Roman, instead
> > of being a frat boy at a Toga party who thinks donning a bed sheet
> > makes him into a Roman.
> >
> > We have far too many of the later running around Nova Roma. People who
> > have seen Gladiator and read McCallugh's Novels and who think that
> > makes them experts on being Romans.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> > >Salve Censor Germanice,
> > >
> > >You said :
> > >
> > >n a message dated 21/05/04 19:41:29 GMT Daylight Time, hucke@c...
> > >writes:
> > >
> > >>I say with confidence that G. Iulius Scaurus is a better Roman and
> > >>a better human being than the kiddie lawyer who is persecuting him.
> > >>
> > >
> > >How can one individual be a better "roman" than somebody else ?
> > being roman
> > >has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge you possess, where
> > you live or
> > >how obedient you are to the Religio. Being Roman is an intimate
> > journey that
> > >most of us have taken. On this journey there are no "better" road :
> > They all
> > >lead to Rome, eventually...
> > >
> > >Vale
> > >
> > >Moravius Laureatus
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Senator Druse,

In a message dated 22/05/04 16:56:17 GMT Daylight Time,
drusus@... writes:

> These stupid legal battles have created one crisis after another and
> we are now in the worst one since since the Civil war 5 years ago and
> may surpass that one before this plays out.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>

Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one citizen to
another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does that
constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been blown out of
proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but Illustris Scaurus ?
Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe you any more...

Vale

Moravius Laureatus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you blind?

A Censor has resigned his office.
A Curile Aedile, Flamine, and Pontifex has resigned his citizenship
and offices.
A Plebian Aedile has vanished.
One of the Consuls has barely been heard from this year.
One of the Praetors has vanished.
The other Praetor might as well have vanished for all we have heard
from him.
The Gods only know how many others have become disgusted by these
events and will vanish or resign because of it.

Of the 6 most senior magistrates only two are active and they are
doing their damndest to avoid recognizing that we are in the midst of
a major crisis.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> Salve Senator Druse,
>
> In a message dated 22/05/04 16:56:17 GMT Daylight Time,
> drusus@b... writes:
>
> > These stupid legal battles have created one crisis after another and
> > we are now in the worst one since since the Civil war 5 years ago and
> > may surpass that one before this plays out.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
>
>
> Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one
citizen to
> another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does that
> constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
> And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been blown
out of
> proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but Illustris
Scaurus ?
> Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe you any
more...
>
> Vale
>
> Moravius Laureatus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Romans

I offer this as a plea to Gaius Iulius Scaurus and Marcus Octavius Germanicus to reconsider their decisions of this week. I ask that every Nova Roman read this carefully and reflect on it.


"Begin the morning by saying to thyself, I shall meet with the busy-body, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, unsocial. All these things happen to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I who have seen the nature of the good that it is beautiful, and of the bad that it is ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to me, not only of the same blood or seed, but that it participates in the same intelligence and the same portion of the divinity, I can neither be injured by any of them, for no one can fix on me what is ugly, nor can I be angry with my kinsman, nor hate him, For we are made for co-operation, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of the upper and lower teeth. To act against one another then is contrary to nature; and it is acting against one another to be vexed and to turn away."

"Whatever this is that I am, it is a little flesh and breath, and the ruling part. Throw away thy books; no longer distract thyself: it is not allowed; but as if thou was now dying, despise the flesh; it is blood and bones and a network, a contexture of nerves, veins, and arteries. See the breath also, what kind of a thing it is, air, and not always the same, but every moment sent out and again sucked in. The third then is the ruling part: consider thus: Thou art an old man; no longer let this be a slave, no longer be pulled by the strings like a puppet to unsocial movements, no longer either be dissatisfied with thy present lot, or shrink from the future. All that is from the gods is full of Providence. That which is from fortune is not separated from nature or without an interweaving and involution with the things which are ordered by Providence. From thence all things flow; and there is besides necessity, and that which is for the advantage of the whole universe, of which thou art a part. But that is good for every part of nature which the nature of the whole brings, and what serves to maintain this nature. Now the universe is preserved, as by the changes of the elements so by the changes of things compounded of the elements. Let these principles be enough for thee, let them always be fixed opinions. But cast away the thirst after books, that thou may not die murmuring, but cheerfully, truly, and from thy heart thankful to the gods."

"Remember how long thou hast been putting off these things, and how often thou hast received an opportunity from the gods, and yet does not use it. Thou must now at last perceive of what universe thou art a part, and of what administrator of the universe thy existence is an efflux, and that a limit of time is fixed for thee, which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind, it will go and thou wilt go, and it will never return."

Every moment think steadily as a Roman and a man to do what thou hast in hand with perfect and simple dignity, and feeling of affection, and freedom, and justice; and to give thyself relief from all other thoughts.

And thou wilt give thyself relief, if thou doest every act of thy life as if it were the last, laying aside all carelessness and passionate aversion from the commands of reason, and all hypocrisy, and self-love, and discontent with the portion which has been given to thee. Thou sees how few the things are, the which if a man lays hold of, he is able to live a life which flows in quiet, and is like the existence of the gods; for the gods on their part will require nothing more from him who observes these things.

Do wrong to thyself, do wrong to thyself, my soul; but thou wilt no longer have the opportunity of honoring thyself. Every man's life is sufficient. But thine is nearly finished, though thy soul reverences not itself but places thy felicity in the souls of others.

Do the things external which fall upon thee distract thee? Give thyself time to learn something new and good, and cease to be whirled around. But then thou must also avoid being carried about the other way. For those too are triflers who have wearied themselves in life by their activity, and yet have no object to which to direct every movement, and, in a word, all their thoughts.

Through not observing what is in the mind of another a man has seldom been seen to be unhappy; but those who do not observe the movements of their own minds must of necessity be unhappy.

This thou must always bear in mind, what is the nature of the whole, and what is my nature, and how this is related to that, and what kind of a part it is of what kind of a whole; and that there is no one who hinders thee from always doing and saying the things which are according to the nature of which thou art a part.

Theophrastus, in his comparison of bad acts- such a comparison as one would make in accordance with the common notions of mankind- says, like a true philosopher, that the offences which are committed through desire are more blamable than those which are committed through anger. For he who is excited by anger seems to turn away from reason with a certain pain and unconscious contraction; but he who offends through desire, being overpowered by pleasure, seems to be in a manner more intemperate and more womanish in his offences. Rightly then, and in a way worthy of philosophy, he said that the offence which is committed with pleasure is more blamable than that which is committed with pain; and on the whole the one is more like a person who has been first wronged and through pain is compelled to be angry; but the other is moved by his own impulse to do wrong, being carried towards doing something by desire.

Since it is possible that thou may depart from life this very moment, regulate every act and thought accordingly. But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence? But in truth they do exist, and they do care for human things, and they have put all the means in man's power to enable him not to fall into real evils. And as to the rest, if there was anything evil, they would have provided for this also, that it should be altogether in a man's power not to fall into it. Now that which does not make a man worse, how can it make a man's life worse? But neither through ignorance, nor having the knowledge, but not the power to guard against or correct these things, is it possible that the nature of the universe has overlooked them; nor is it possible that it has made so great a mistake, either through want of power or want of skill, that good and evil should happen indiscriminately to the good and the bad. But death certainly, and life, honor and dishonor, pain and pleasure, all these things equally happen to good men and bad, being things which make us neither better nor worse. Therefore they are neither good nor evil.

How quickly all things disappear, in the universe the bodies themselves, but in time the remembrance of them; what is the nature of all sensible things, and particularly those which attract with the bait of pleasure or terrify by pain, or are noised abroad by vapory fame; how worthless, and contemptible, and sordid, and perishable, and dead they are- all this it is the part of the intellectual faculty to observe. To observe too who these are whose opinions and voices give reputation; what death is, and the fact that, if a man looks at it in itself, and by the abstractive power of reflection resolves into their parts all the things which present themselves to the imagination in it, he will then consider it to be nothing else than an operation of nature; and if any one is afraid of an operation of nature, he is a child. This, however, is not only an operation of nature, but it is also a thing which conduces to the purposes of nature. To observe too how man comes near to the deity, and by what part of him, and when this part of man is so disposed.

Nothing is more wretched than a man who traverses everything in a round, and pries into the things beneath the earth, as the poet says, and seeks by conjecture what is in the minds of his neighbors, without perceiving that it is sufficient to attend to the daemon within him, and to reverence it sincerely. And reverence of the daemon consists in keeping it pure from passion and thoughtlessness, and dissatisfaction with what comes from gods and men. For the things from the gods merit veneration for their excellence; and the things from men should be dear to us by reason of kinship; and sometimes even, in a manner, they move our pity by reason of men's ignorance of good and bad; this defect being not less than that which deprives us of the power of distinguishing things that are white and black.

Though thou should be going to live three thousand years, and as many times ten thousand years, still remember that no man loses any other life than this which he now lives, nor lives any other than this which he now loses. The longest and shortest are thus brought to the same. For the present is the same to all, though that which perishes is not the same; and so that which is lost appears to be a mere moment. For a man cannot lose either the past or the future: for what a man has not, how can any one take this from him? These two things then thou must bear in mind; the one, that all things from eternity are of like forms and come round in a circle, and that it makes no difference whether a man shall see the same things during a hundred years or two hundred, or an infinite time; and the second, that the longest liver and he who will die soonest lose just the same. For the present is the only thing of which a man can be deprived, if it is true that this is the only thing which he has, and that a man cannot lose a thing if he has it not.

Remember that all is opinion. For what was said by the Cynic Monimus is manifest: and manifest too is the use of what was said, if a man receives what may be got out of it as far as it is true.

The soul of man does violence to itself, first of all, when it becomes an abscess and, as it were, a tumor on the universe, so far as it can. For to be vexed at anything which happens is a separation of ourselves from nature, in some part of which the natures of all other things are contained. In the next place, the soul does violence to itself when it turns away from any man, or even moves towards him with the intention of injuring, such as are the souls of those who are angry. In the third place, the soul does violence to itself when it is overpowered by pleasure or by pain. Fourthly, when it plays a part, and does or says anything insincerely and untruly. Fifthly, when it allows any act of its own and any movement to be without an aim, and does anything thoughtlessly and without considering what it is, it being right that even the smallest things be done with reference to an end; and the end of rational animals is to follow the reason and the law of the most ancient city and polity.

Of human life the time is a point, and the substance is in a flux, and the perception dull, and the composition of the whole body subject to putrefaction, and the soul a whirl, and fortune hard to divine, and fame a thing devoid of judgement. And, to say all in a word, everything which belongs to the body is a stream, and what belongs to the soul is a dream and vapor, and life is a warfare and a stranger's sojourn, and after-fame is oblivion. What then is that which is able to conduct a man? One thing and only one, philosophy. But this consists in keeping the daemon within a man free from violence and unharmed, superior to pains and pleasures, doing nothing without purpose, nor yet falsely and with hypocrisy, not feeling the need of another man's doing or not doing anything; and besides, accepting all that happens, and all that is allotted, as coming from thence, wherever it is, from whence he himself came; and, finally, waiting for death with a cheerful mind, as being nothing else than a dissolution of the elements of which every living being is compounded. But if there is no harm to the elements themselves in each continually changing into another, why should a man have any apprehension about the change and dissolution of all the elements? For it is according to nature, and nothing is evil which is according to nature."

This in Carnuntum.


Vale Marcus Aurelius 167 A. C.E. Translated by George Long

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your desire to promote conspiracy theories is causing you to overlook
a few facts, like that the people you are claiming see the departure
of Octavius as an opportunity were among the first the bemoan his
departure and that some of the people who are celebrating Nova Roma's
loss are the same ones who also endorsed your candiacy for Praetor.

I Guess this will get me on the enimies list along with the people in
your missive and earlier entrants like Diana and Fabius Maximus, but
I'm really tired of seeing these paranoid conspiracy fantisies you
insist on dumping on this list.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:

> Nahh.. in my view after 4 years of citizenship, Marcus Octavius'
> resignation, (and it is not definite nor official yet) presents many
> splendored opportunities for those who are inches away from a majority
> in terms of Senators who collectively see things 'their way, and
> have 'their' vision of NR, which may or may not coincide with those
> pesky 'laws'...his departure might certainly even out those odds...in
> favour of those who would desire a dictatorship...Po hands Modius a
> tissue to dry his tears, here's a whole box to share amongst yourself,
> Palladius, Marcus Bianchus...ahh it is hard to emotionally reconcile
> conservativism with the liberal component of emotionalism sometimes...

G. Equitius Cato L. Licinio Druso quiritibusque S.P.D.

Drusus, you seem to have taken over where Athanasius left off: you
cannot seem to help but stick your foot so firmly in your mouth it is
a wonder you can still either walk or talk. My heartfelt suggestion
to you, young man, is that you sit quietly and READ THE POSTS that
you are supposedly "responding" to; your replies are simply the same
kind of hysterical, off-note yowling that brought us into this mess
to begin with. Please, I beg you, close your mouth and open it
after, and ONLY after, you have read and at least attempted to
understand what the vast majority of citizens are saying. Somehow,
Nova Roma will survive; our magistrates (what are left of them) are
figuring out how to proceed in an orderly way; the sky is NOT, after
all, falling.

Marcus Bianchius, I have to say that your parentheticals regarding
your name made me laugh out loud for the first time (in regards to NR)
in a long time. I may not agree with everything you say, but the way
you said it...priceless.

valete,

Cato




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Are you blind?
>
> A Censor has resigned his office.
> A Curile Aedile, Flamine, and Pontifex has resigned his citizenship
> and offices.
> A Plebian Aedile has vanished.
> One of the Consuls has barely been heard from this year.
> One of the Praetors has vanished.
> The other Praetor might as well have vanished for all we have heard
> from him.
> The Gods only know how many others have become disgusted by these
> events and will vanish or resign because of it.
>
> Of the 6 most senior magistrates only two are active and they are
> doing their damndest to avoid recognizing that we are in the midst

of

> a major crisis.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> > Salve Senator Druse,
> >
> > In a message dated 22/05/04 16:56:17 GMT Daylight Time,
> > drusus@b... writes:
> >
> > > These stupid legal battles have created one crisis after

another and

> > > we are now in the worst one since since the Civil war 5 years

ago and

> > > may surpass that one before this plays out.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> >
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one
> citizen to
> > another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does

that

> > constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
> > And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been

blown

> out of
> > proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but

Illustris

> Scaurus ?
> > Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe you any
> more...
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Moravius Laureatus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Honorable Senator Druse,

In a message dated 23/05/04 00:24:47 GMT Daylight Time,
drusus@... writes:

> You are the one who fails in reading comprehension.
>

Thank you for pointing this out, I shall go and put my glasses on...

> Many of the people running around Nova Roma don't have the foggiest
> notion of what being a Roman entails. It takes more than a pass of the
> Censors magic mouse to create a Roman.
>

Would you be less american if you didn't know the year the declaration of
independance was signed ? Would a french person be less french because he/she
didn't know who Voltaire was ? Would an englishman be less english because he
didn't know who reigned in 1904 or what was the year the Church of England was
created ? No. An indentity is far more than the sum of knowledge one might have
on a particular subject and I don't think you, or anybody else should be in a
position to say "you are roman, you are not".
As for the censores' magic mouse not creating romans, I am well aware of that
matter although, we, in the censorial office, work on a daily basis to
improve that situation. So you can, respectfully, keep your magic mouse cliks
comments to yourself, thank you. (unless, that is, you'd like to volunteer some of
your time to work with us instead of rumbling on the ML).

> Giaus Iulius is far more Roman than the vast majority of the people in
> this organization and no fuzzy feelings, no aimless desires, nor any
> number of self delarations of Romaness will change that fact.
>

Again, piles of knowledge don't grant you an identity. Culture and identity
are two things that are felt and discovered rather than imposed or learned. I
am surprised that a scholar such as you cannot tell the difference.

> If a real Roman could step into a time machine and visit Nova Roma he
> would fall on the floor laughing at the pretentions of the self
> declared "Romans" running around Nova Roma with no clue about Roma, No
> desire to learn about Roma, and who bleat out "the best of" every time
> it's pointed out that they are clueless frat boys in bedsheets, not
> Romans.
>

Well, If an ancient roman (a senator, a peasant, a city dweller, a provincial
?) did indeed come to visit us he would sure have a good laugh. But at whose
expense, I wonder...

> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> >Salve Druse,
> >
> >Perhaps one day you'll learn to read properly what others say. Until
> this day
> >I have nothing else to say to you. Good day.
> >
> >Moravius Laureatus
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 22/05/04 03:07:55 GMT Daylight Time,
> >drusus@b... writes:
> >
> >>Gaius Iulius fully understands the concept of being a Roman, instead
> >>of being a frat boy at a Toga party who thinks donning a bed sheet
> >>makes him into a Roman.
> >>
> >>We have far too many of the later running around Nova Roma. People who
> >>have seen Gladiator and read McCallugh's Novels and who think that
> >>makes them experts on being Romans.
> >>
> >>L. Sicinius Drusus
> >>
> >>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> >>>Salve Censor Germanice,
> >>>
> >>>You said :
> >>>
> >>>n a message dated 21/05/04 19:41:29 GMT Daylight Time, hucke@c...
> >>>writes:
> >>>
> >>>>I say with confidence that G. Iulius Scaurus is a better Roman and
> >>>>a better human being than the kiddie lawyer who is persecuting him.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>How can one individual be a better "roman" than somebody else ?
> >>being roman
> >>>has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge you possess, where
> >>you live or
> >>>how obedient you are to the Religio. Being Roman is an intimate
> >>journey that
> >>>most of us have taken. On this journey there are no "better" road :
> >>They all
> >>>lead to Rome, eventually...
> >>>
> >>>Vale
> >>>
> >>>Moravius Laureatus
> >>>
> >>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius Moravio Laureato salutem dicit

Nova Roma has lost:

One Quaestor.
One Plebeian Aedile.
One or perhaps two Praetors.
One Censor.
One Curule Aedile; Pontifex, Flamen Quirinalis, and Pularius.

This is a crisis. A VERY BAD OMEN!

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius


In a message dated 5/22/2004 7:01:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cornmoraviusl writes:

> Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one citizen to
> another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does that
> constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
> And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been blown out of
> proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but Illustris Scaurus ?
> Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe
> you any more...
>
> Vale
>
> Moravius Laureatus

Cato,

I have no intrest in listening to insults from a person who's obtuse
nature aproaches the level of outright stupidity. If you wish to
emulate an ostrich and ignore the facts I presented, then do so
without stepping into the affairs of your betters.

They say Ignorance is Bliss, If this is true you should be in Nirvana.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato L. Licinio Druso quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Drusus, you seem to have taken over where Athanasius left off: you
> cannot seem to help but stick your foot so firmly in your mouth it is
> a wonder you can still either walk or talk. My heartfelt suggestion
> to you, young man, is that you sit quietly and READ THE POSTS that
> you are supposedly "responding" to; your replies are simply the same
> kind of hysterical, off-note yowling that brought us into this mess
> to begin with. Please, I beg you, close your mouth and open it
> after, and ONLY after, you have read and at least attempted to
> understand what the vast majority of citizens are saying. Somehow,
> Nova Roma will survive; our magistrates (what are left of them) are
> figuring out how to proceed in an orderly way; the sky is NOT, after
> all, falling.
>
> Marcus Bianchius, I have to say that your parentheticals regarding
> your name made me laugh out loud for the first time (in regards to NR)
> in a long time. I may not agree with everything you say, but the way
> you said it...priceless.
>
> valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > Are you blind?
> >
> > A Censor has resigned his office.
> > A Curile Aedile, Flamine, and Pontifex has resigned his citizenship
> > and offices.
> > A Plebian Aedile has vanished.
> > One of the Consuls has barely been heard from this year.
> > One of the Praetors has vanished.
> > The other Praetor might as well have vanished for all we have heard
> > from him.
> > The Gods only know how many others have become disgusted by these
> > events and will vanish or resign because of it.
> >
> > Of the 6 most senior magistrates only two are active and they are
> > doing their damndest to avoid recognizing that we are in the midst
> of
> > a major crisis.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> > > Salve Senator Druse,
> > >
> > > In a message dated 22/05/04 16:56:17 GMT Daylight Time,
> > > drusus@b... writes:
> > >
> > > > These stupid legal battles have created one crisis after
> another and
> > > > we are now in the worst one since since the Civil war 5 years
> ago and
> > > > may surpass that one before this plays out.
> > > >
> > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one
> > citizen to
> > > another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does
> that
> > > constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
> > > And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been
> blown
> > out of
> > > proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but
> Illustris
> > Scaurus ?
> > > Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe you any
> > more...
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Moravius Laureatus
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cato:

> Drusus, you seem to have taken over where Athanasius left off: you
> cannot seem to help but stick your foot so firmly in your mouth it is
> a wonder you can still either walk or talk. My heartfelt suggestion
> to you, young man, is that you sit quietly and READ THE POSTS that
> you are supposedly "responding" to; your replies are simply the same
> kind of hysterical, off-note yowling that brought us into this mess
> to begin with. Please, I beg you, close your mouth and open it
> after, and ONLY after, you have read and at least attempted to
> understand what the vast majority of citizens are saying. Somehow,
> Nova Roma will survive; our magistrates (what are left of them) are
> figuring out how to proceed in an orderly way; the sky is NOT, after
> all, falling.
>

Modius Athanasius: Why must you insist on bringing me into this? And I don't know if I would call Drusus a young man. He's a grandfather.

> Marcus Bianchius, I have to say that your parentheticals regarding
> your name made me laugh out loud for the first time (in regards to NR)
> in a long time. I may not agree with everything you say,
> but the way
> you said it...priceless.

Modius Athanasius: Cato, be careful of your use of the word "priceless," I belive Master Card has it copywritten; they might sue you. But look at the bright side, you have a lot of practice.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

Laureatus,

If a person "feels" he is a poodle, it simply means he is suffering
from a delusion, not that he has become a canine.

Your feelings about wanting to be a Roman will no more convert you
into one than they will convert you into a poodle dog. Romans had a
word view that is sadly lacking in Nova Roma, and without that mind
set you will never be a Roman regardless of what your feelings mislead
you into beleaving.

The fact that you can't understand the concept of some people being
more Roman than others is proof that you are no Roman. That was part
of the Class structure that was at the heart of being a Roman. Don't
bother bleating "the best of" at me either, that statement doses
nothing more than prove a desire to be a semi-Roman at best.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> Salve Honorable Senator Druse,
>
> In a message dated 23/05/04 00:24:47 GMT Daylight Time,
> drusus@b... writes:
>
> > You are the one who fails in reading comprehension.
> >
>
> Thank you for pointing this out, I shall go and put my glasses on...
>
> > Many of the people running around Nova Roma don't have the foggiest
> > notion of what being a Roman entails. It takes more than a pass of the
> > Censors magic mouse to create a Roman.
> >
>
> Would you be less american if you didn't know the year the
declaration of
> independance was signed ? Would a french person be less french
because he/she
> didn't know who Voltaire was ? Would an englishman be less english
because he
> didn't know who reigned in 1904 or what was the year the Church of
England was
> created ? No. An indentity is far more than the sum of knowledge one
might have
> on a particular subject and I don't think you, or anybody else
should be in a
> position to say "you are roman, you are not".
> As for the censores' magic mouse not creating romans, I am well
aware of that
> matter although, we, in the censorial office, work on a daily basis to
> improve that situation. So you can, respectfully, keep your magic
mouse cliks
> comments to yourself, thank you. (unless, that is, you'd like to
volunteer some of
> your time to work with us instead of rumbling on the ML).
>
>
> > Giaus Iulius is far more Roman than the vast majority of the people in
> > this organization and no fuzzy feelings, no aimless desires, nor any
> > number of self delarations of Romaness will change that fact.
> >
>
>
> Again, piles of knowledge don't grant you an identity. Culture and
identity
> are two things that are felt and discovered rather than imposed or
learned. I
> am surprised that a scholar such as you cannot tell the difference.
>
> > If a real Roman could step into a time machine and visit Nova Roma he
> > would fall on the floor laughing at the pretentions of the self
> > declared "Romans" running around Nova Roma with no clue about Roma, No
> > desire to learn about Roma, and who bleat out "the best of" every time
> > it's pointed out that they are clueless frat boys in bedsheets, not
> > Romans.
> >
>
> Well, If an ancient roman (a senator, a peasant, a city dweller, a
provincial
> ?) did indeed come to visit us he would sure have a good laugh. But
at whose
> expense, I wonder...
>
>
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> > >Salve Druse,
> > >
> > >Perhaps one day you'll learn to read properly what others say. Until
> > this day
> > >I have nothing else to say to you. Good day.
> > >
> > >Moravius Laureatus
> > >
> > >
> > >In a message dated 22/05/04 03:07:55 GMT Daylight Time,
> > >drusus@b... writes:
> > >
> > >>Gaius Iulius fully understands the concept of being a Roman, instead
> > >>of being a frat boy at a Toga party who thinks donning a bed sheet
> > >>makes him into a Roman.
> > >>
> > >>We have far too many of the later running around Nova Roma.
People who
> > >>have seen Gladiator and read McCallugh's Novels and who think that
> > >>makes them experts on being Romans.
> > >>
> > >>L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >>
> > >>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cornmoraviusl@a... wrote:
> > >>>Salve Censor Germanice,
> > >>>
> > >>>You said :
> > >>>
> > >>>n a message dated 21/05/04 19:41:29 GMT Daylight Time, hucke@c...
> > >>>writes:
> > >>>
> > >>>>I say with confidence that G. Iulius Scaurus is a better Roman and
> > >>>>a better human being than the kiddie lawyer who is persecuting
him.
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>How can one individual be a better "roman" than somebody else ?
> > >>being roman
> > >>>has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge you possess, where
> > >>you live or
> > >>>how obedient you are to the Religio. Being Roman is an intimate
> > >>journey that
> > >>>most of us have taken. On this journey there are no "better" road :
> > >>They all
> > >>>lead to Rome, eventually...
> > >>>
> > >>>Vale
> > >>>
> > >>>Moravius Laureatus
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius et al

Since March we have been trying to fill the Plebeian Aedileship and we will shortly. We do not know while he "disappeared" and we all hope he is safe but it happen on day one he NEVER took the oath and was gone.
The Senior Censor was just plan tired of NR and Nova Romans, some time off is his do. He has given enough of himself ( yes I hope he comes back). Our Praetors? Only god/s only know. Our senior Consul lives in Spain and they had a "Real world terrorist attack on the railroads/subway that I believe he works for? His absence is at least explainable.

We also lost the Curator Araneum

I thought Romans were made of sterner stuff. The few magistrates left are still working.

As an aside the last elected magistrate still in office at the end of this year he/she gets the steak knifes ?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Free Speech (was: Re: The recent legal business (Scaurus))


Gaius Modius Athanasius Moravio Laureato salutem dicit

Nova Roma has lost:

One Quaestor.
One Plebeian Aedile.
One or perhaps two Praetors.
One Censor.
One Curule Aedile; Pontifex, Flamen Quirinalis, and Pularius.

This is a crisis. A VERY BAD OMEN!

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius


In a message dated 5/22/2004 7:01:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cornmoraviusl writes:

> Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one citizen to
> another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does that
> constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
> And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been blown out of
> proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but Illustris Scaurus ?
> Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe
> you any more...
>
> Vale
>
> Moravius Laureatus




Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:

> Modius Athanasius: Why must you insist on bringing me into this?

And I don't know if I would call Drusus a young man. He's a grandfather.

Looking at Cato's Yahoo profile,

http://profiles.yahoo.com/gaiusequitiuscato

I notice that he's 6 years younger than I am, the same age as my baby
brother.

Does that mean I can refer to him as the kid from now on?

Drusus

G. Equitius Cato L. Licinio Druso S.D.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Cato,
>
> I have no intrest in listening to insults from a person who's obtuse
> nature aproaches the level of outright stupidity. If you wish to
> emulate an ostrich and ignore the facts I presented, then do so
> without stepping into the affairs of your betters.
>
> They say Ignorance is Bliss, If this is true you should be in

Nirvana.

>
> L. Sicinius Drusus

O Drusus, Drusus...

In order to consider you my "better" I'd need to be some sort of
single-celled creature scurrying around on my ciliae.

You should REALLY check your grammar and spelling, especially in a
post meant to show how stupid someone ELSE is.

OK, in all seriousness, please just stop the howling and relax.
Everything is going to be fine. We don't need to get all pissed off
at each other. Let's wait until there's some truly interesting bit
of discussion for that. I do not think you're an idiot, just
excitable. I promise not to make fun of you anymore if you promise
not to keep saying the same thing over and over again. Just please
let the "EVERYONE HAS LEFT NOVA ROMA AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!"
stuff go. They haven't and we're not. Deal?

vale,

Cato

Look Kid,

Nova Roma is in the process of self destructing. We have already the
services of two men who aren't replacable, and that dosen't take the
people who are vanishing into account.

The Last thing we need right now is a snotty nosed punk like you
attempting to deride people who have far more knowledge of this
organization than your obtuse nature makes you capable of.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato L. Licinio Druso S.D.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > Cato,
> >
> > I have no intrest in listening to insults from a person who's obtuse
> > nature aproaches the level of outright stupidity. If you wish to
> > emulate an ostrich and ignore the facts I presented, then do so
> > without stepping into the affairs of your betters.
> >
> > They say Ignorance is Bliss, If this is true you should be in
> Nirvana.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
> O Drusus, Drusus...
>
> In order to consider you my "better" I'd need to be some sort of
> single-celled creature scurrying around on my ciliae.
>
> You should REALLY check your grammar and spelling, especially in a
> post meant to show how stupid someone ELSE is.
>
> OK, in all seriousness, please just stop the howling and relax.
> Everything is going to be fine. We don't need to get all pissed off
> at each other. Let's wait until there's some truly interesting bit
> of discussion for that. I do not think you're an idiot, just
> excitable. I promise not to make fun of you anymore if you promise
> not to keep saying the same thing over and over again. Just please
> let the "EVERYONE HAS LEFT NOVA ROMA AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!"
> stuff go. They haven't and we're not. Deal?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.

salvete,

Sorry I brought you up, Athanasius; I promise not to do it again
unless you're involved directly. Drusus, you're older than me? Wow.
And hey, why doesn't anybody else have their picture in their
profile?

valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
>
> > Modius Athanasius: Why must you insist on bringing me into this?
> And I don't know if I would call Drusus a young man. He's a

grandfather.

>
> Looking at Cato's Yahoo profile,
>
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/gaiusequitiuscato
>
> I notice that he's 6 years younger than I am, the same age as my

baby

> brother.
>
> Does that mean I can refer to him as the kid from now on?
>
> Drusus

G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.

salve Drusus,

OK, Gramps...so does this mean we're not playing nice in the sandbox?

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Look Kid,
>
> Nova Roma is in the process of self destructing. We have already the
> services of two men who aren't replacable, and that dosen't take the
> people who are vanishing into account.
>
> The Last thing we need right now is a snotty nosed punk like you
> attempting to deride people who have far more knowledge of this
> organization than your obtuse nature makes you capable of.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato L. Licinio Druso S.D.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > > Cato,
> > >
> > > I have no intrest in listening to insults from a person who's

obtuse

> > > nature aproaches the level of outright stupidity. If you wish to
> > > emulate an ostrich and ignore the facts I presented, then do so
> > > without stepping into the affairs of your betters.
> > >
> > > They say Ignorance is Bliss, If this is true you should be in
> > Nirvana.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> > O Drusus, Drusus...
> >
> > In order to consider you my "better" I'd need to be some sort of
> > single-celled creature scurrying around on my ciliae.
> >
> > You should REALLY check your grammar and spelling, especially in

a

> > post meant to show how stupid someone ELSE is.
> >
> > OK, in all seriousness, please just stop the howling and relax.
> > Everything is going to be fine. We don't need to get all pissed

off

> > at each other. Let's wait until there's some truly interesting

bit

> > of discussion for that. I do not think you're an idiot, just
> > excitable. I promise not to make fun of you anymore if you

promise

> > not to keep saying the same thing over and over again. Just

please

> > let the "EVERYONE HAS LEFT NOVA ROMA AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!"
> > stuff go. They haven't and we're not. Deal?
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato

Gaius Modius Athanasius Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

I never said anything about our senior Consul, Salix Astur. I am well aware he is tied up with his work, and is still working behind the scenes; he was not mentioned in my litany of "shame."

I believe there are some clear signs that all is not well. Contrary to the sense of optimism you share.

I do not think "all is lost." But I do think there is a serious problem. This is why I support the idea of a Dictator. Someone who will make Nova Roma clearly what it was intended; a place for the Religio Romana and place to cultivate Romanitas.

Citizenship is too easily offered, and the Religio is not in the light that it should be. You will probably disagree, as will Cato, and his clones. Ita est.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/22/2004 8:17:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, spqr753@... writes:

> Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius et al
>
> Since March we have been trying to fill the Plebeian Aedileship and we will shortly. We do not know while he "disappeared" and we all hope he is safe but it happen on day one he NEVER took the oath and was gone.
> The Senior Censor was just plan tired of NR and Nova Romans, some time off is his do. He has given enough of himself ( yes I hope he comes back). Our Praetors? Only god/s only know. Our senior Consul lives in Spain and they had a "Real world terrorist attack on the railroads/subway that I believe he works for? His absence is at least explainable.
>
> We also lost the Curator Araneum
>
> I thought Romans were made of sterner stuff. The few magistrates left are still working.
>
> As an aside the last elected magistrate still in office at
> the end of this year he/she gets the steak knifes ?
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Cato salutem dicit

You want to see a photo of Drusus:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view?id=1491

You want to see a photo of me:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4006

If I wanted to see a picture of you I would go to:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7186

Oh, wait...you don't have a photo there :)

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius


In a message dated 5/22/2004 8:52:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.
>
> salvete,
>
> Sorry I brought you up, Athanasius; I promise not to do it again
> unless you're involved directly. Drusus, you're older than me? Wow.
> And hey, why doesn't anybody else have their picture in
> their
> profile?
>
> valete,
>
> Cato

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio L. Sicinio Druso quiritibusque
S.P.D.

Salvete omnes,

Athanasius, Drusus, etc., et al., I hereby swear, by the Gods of the
Romans, and by that One Whom I worship in my own religio privata,
that I will truly and earnestly seek greater Concordia with those
with whom I disagree. I swear that I will not answer "tit-for-tat",
that I will be moderate in my responses to any and all attacks, that
I will look always for the sense of what a fellow-citizen is saying
rather than focus on their words. I will assume at all times that all
citizens are acting with the best for the State in mind, unless
proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This is my solemn vow. I call upon
you to do the same, for the health and welfare of the State. When
our ex-Censor has rested and comes back, let us greet him with a Nova
Roma that is stronger, more cohesive, and more vital than before.
What say you?

valete,

Cato

P.S. - this doesn't mean we can't use our sense of humor, though.
Just be more careful that it is the blunt edge and not the cutting
one that is employed. GEC

P.P.S. - Tiberius Paulinus: I like the steak knives idea, but given
the mood of NR, maybe a nice potted plant would be wiser? At least
for now... GEC

F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Cato: As every citizen who has been on the list for the last year or longer
knows, it is impossible to muzzle certain Georgia bulldogs for very long.
Like cockroaches and most (but not all) lawyers, they just keep coming back and
making life unpleasant for everybody.

To All Those Worried About Lawsuits: We have barely got over 200 assidui at
present. Does anyone really believe that the other 1800 capite censi and
socii would put out money for lawyers and lawsuits when they won't shell out for
citizenship or go to the trouble of filing under the Lex Sal.

To Anyone Who Has Threatened/Thought About A Lawsuit: Get Real. Most
citizens are not going to the trouble of filing under the Lex Sal. because it is too
big a bother. You all are just blustering. Also, for those who have
communicated with me privately about filing a complaint with AOL about some other
citizen's behavior, please remember someone did that about four months ago
against me. You want to know what happened? Absolutely nothing, except the citizen
who did it got a ton of bad emails dumped on him.

I have kept my opinions to myself for the most part because most of the last
300 posts consisted of blustering and bullying but when some of our most
valuable people start bailing on Nova Roma, I have to say that some of you are
pretty shortsighted on the Internet. I wonder if some of those that have been
posting over the last few days so negatively would have this much "courage" if
you had to meet face to face with those you are talking with or about.

May the Gods grant each and every assidui, capite censi, and socii in Nova
Roma everything that is appropriate and deserved. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Speaking of roaches I figured that it was only a mater of time until
this jibbering jackass started posting poison pen letters again.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> Cato: As every citizen who has been on the list for the last year
or longer
> knows, it is impossible to muzzle certain Georgia bulldogs for very
long.
> Like cockroaches and most (but not all) lawyers, they just keep
coming back and
> making life unpleasant for everybody.
>
> To All Those Worried About Lawsuits: We have barely got over 200
assidui at
> present. Does anyone really believe that the other 1800 capite
censi and
> socii would put out money for lawyers and lawsuits when they won't
shell out for
> citizenship or go to the trouble of filing under the Lex Sal.
>
> To Anyone Who Has Threatened/Thought About A Lawsuit: Get Real. Most
> citizens are not going to the trouble of filing under the Lex Sal.
because it is too
> big a bother. You all are just blustering. Also, for those who have
> communicated with me privately about filing a complaint with AOL
about some other
> citizen's behavior, please remember someone did that about four
months ago
> against me. You want to know what happened? Absolutely nothing,
except the citizen
> who did it got a ton of bad emails dumped on him.
>
> I have kept my opinions to myself for the most part because most of
the last
> 300 posts consisted of blustering and bullying but when some of our
most
> valuable people start bailing on Nova Roma, I have to say that some
of you are
> pretty shortsighted on the Internet. I wonder if some of those that
have been
> posting over the last few days so negatively would have this much
"courage" if
> you had to meet face to face with those you are talking with or about.
>
> May the Gods grant each and every assidui, capite censi, and socii
in Nova
> Roma everything that is appropriate and deserved. Valete.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Flavius Vedius Germanicus Novae Romanae S.P.D.

Salvete Omnes,

Apologies if this is long. There is much to talk about. (Apologies too for my atrocious Latin; I'm working on it!)

I must confess that when I made the decision to return to Nova Roma, I had no idea that it would be at a time of such convulsion. Perhaps my unique perspective as both a newcomer and one with an intimate knowledge of our Republic and its history can help sort things out and possibly point the way to a solution.

There seem to be several forces at work, some of which are interacting with one another, all coming to a head at the same time. Yet does that qualify as a "crisis"? Is the solution to the Republic's woes the appointment of another Dictator, or the issuance of the Senatus Consultum Ultimum? As the only person here who has actually served as Dictator, I can safely say:

NO!

The current situation does not come anywhere near to the crisis that led to that appointment (and Gods help anyone who actually WANTS the job; it is by far the most stressful thing one can do in connection with Nova Roma). Are there problems right now? Yes. Serious problems? Without a doubt. But I am convinced that there is nothing wrong with Nova Roma that we cannot fix with the institutions and people that we have now.

For those who might not know, Nova Roma as an entity was conceived when Marcus Cassius and I, discussing how the Religio Romana might be revived, realized that doing so would be impossible without a real Roman state, since so many aspects of the Religio-- namely, the Religio Publica-- were dependent on various magistrates to undertake them, and were meaningless in the absence of a Roman state.

The answer? To create such a state; a "micronation". The formation of the Nova Roman micronation formed the legal fiction necessary for the practice of the Religo Publica. That does not, of course, mean that the practice of the Religio Publica should be thought of as a limit; rather, it is the foundation on which everything else is built. Almost immediately, though, it was apparent that the idea of a New Rome was bigger than either of us had imagined. The opportunities for education, for recreation in non-religious areas, historical reenactment, and so forth. As with most things, Nova Roma has grown beyond its initial conception, and continues to do so. But the basic framework; a Republic based as closely as practical on the ancient Roman Republic, remains.

And with that framework, so central to the original purpose for the creation of Nova Roma itself, comes the fact that things get done through the passage of laws, edicts, and decrees. So to say that it's a bad thing that we have laws, and use them, is to miss the point. One may very well have a concern about one or more specific leges, but I pray all to keep some perspective about that particular aspect of our society. It is not set up that way on a whim; it is a consequence of the very basis for Nova Roma's existence.

In regards to the specific cases of the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria and Lex Salicia Poenalis, might I suggest those who feel they are in need of revision and/or repealing join the discussion on the NovaRomaLaws list about that very topic? Surely we can have a discussion about a point of law without bringing in personalities and current cases, in order to speak to the higher points of the law in question. Let the fires of temper be drowned in plodding and pedantic discussions about points of law. :-)

As regards this list, I would ask everyone-- on all sides of all issues-- to ask themselves one simple question before they hit the "send" button on their email:

"Does this add to my dignitas, or does it diminish it?"

We can make our points without resort to name-calling, or sarcasm, or veiled (or blatant) insults. I've done my share of such things in the past; I know the temptation. But in the long run, such emails don't do anyone any good. I beg everyone here to step back and treat everyone-- especially people with whom we don't agree-- with respect and civility. It's not easy, but in the long run it is better for everyone.

And that point brings me to a larger one. Nova Roma should-- indeed, must-- be more than just this email list and the website. Sure, there are other lists; NovaRomaLaw, mediatlanticaprovincia, etc., but that, too, is insufficient; everyone knows this list is the central focus of life in Nova Roma. I am convinced that our "virtual" focus has been the root cause of many of our problems. Disappearing magistrates? If they were prominent members of a municipium, there would be ample people who see them face-to-face on a regular basis that could be asked for more information. A low number of assidui? If people saw more concrete benefits of being active Citizens, they might be more inclined to pay the $12. People drifting off because there's nothing to do? If there WERE things to do on weekends, they'd STAY!

If it were feasible, I would say do away with the "main list" altogether. Once we reach critical mass of real-world events, I very well might bring it up as a serious proposal. But it is premature to talk about such things now.

But for now, I have one solution to propose. Something everyone-- Pagan, Christian, Stoic, Epicurean-- can participate in. Set up a real-world, face-to-face, event. Make sure it happens. Make 2457 AUC the year Nova Roma broke out of the chains of the Internet!

STEP ONE: If you haven't already, join your local provincial email list. If one doesn't exist, CREATE ONE, and let the governor and this list know.

STEP TWO: It doesn't matter what it is, but set up SOMETHING. A convivium. A public celebration of the Religio Publica. A gladiatorial contest with boffer weapons (there's a completly unused Sodalitas Munerum dedicated to recreating such gladiatorial contests, as a matter of fact). A discussion about one of Steven Saylor's books. A production of "The Haunted House" by Plautus. A mock trial of Sulla (the historical one-- not our own!). Something that you'd have to do in the real world. Something to drag Nova Roma kicking and screaming away from being a primarily online organization to one that is primarily a real-world group that uses the Internet simply to coordinate its various events.

STEP THREE: If you find out about an event that's even remotely in your area, ATTEND IT.

Nova Roma can exist on a number of different levels.

It is a place-- in my judgement the ONLY place-- where the revival of the Religio Romana can be fully realized. That was its original purpose for existence, but it is no longer its sole purpose. It remains, however, its foundation.

It is an educational tool for letting the world know just why Rome was the pinnacle of civilization during its day. From philosophy to food, from war to religion, from drama to architecture; we have the opportunity to become the preeminent voice for extoling the glory of Rome. But we cannot do this by alienating those academics who do participate.

It is a tool for self-change. Even through the simple application of the Roman Virtues to one's everyday life, Nova Roma can be a means to change lives for the better. By having fora for the propagation of the various philosophies that flourished in Rome, we can do even more. There's a reason the Roman Virtues have been one the website since its inception!

In summary, I acknowledge that Nova Roma is facing a difficult time, but hardly a crisis approaching the need for the appointment of a Dictator. We are indeed a nation, and a nation of laws, but it is not that fact that needs addressing, but rather problems with specific leges that may warrant sober, respectful discussion. When interacting here on the "main list" we need to bear in mind our own dignitas and with every post increase, rather than diminish, the spirit of Concordia present. But at the same time, we need to move Nova Roma from a primarily virtual to a primarily real-world, venture. If we fail to do so, we really will fall into the dustbin of history.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Pater Patriae



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites;
I also do not like to see cives go, resign whether I agree with them
or not.
But let us pause and see this as a time to regain Concordia on the
ML.
We have a wonderful nation, the Hispanii are extremely active on
their list with a rolling blog, the Itali are constantly discussing &
meeting for scholarly events. There are new provincia such as
Hibernia, and soon Baltica, the Britanni are getting together as well
There are many courses on offer at Academia Thules, and yes those
of us who practice the Religio are here as well, the gods love us for
our devotion to Roma Antiqua: all of us Christians, Jews,
Philosophers, every single civis.
We have 2 wonderful Consuls, fine Tribunes of the Plebis, an active
Senate. So let us take a breath and count our blessings
and may Concordia watch over our great nation at last.

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
sacerdos magnae Matris
Propraetrix Hiberniae

Salvete omnes:
as a student in Scaurus's Latin Course, here is a sentence I had to
translate:

saepe poenam irae videmus : we often see the penalty of anger

>
> 1. I point out that your "joke" was a suggestion that I be

murdered. I

> wasn't happy when you were moderated for it, I asked the censors to

investigate

> you for a nota, And
> people wonder why some of us think the concept of justice is dead

in NR.

>

1. Now let us calmly examine. Scaurus was angry with my speech, my
joke and reported it to the Censors; fair enough. When I was not
punished severely enough he says that Justice is dead.

> >
> 2. I don't see the slightest reason for Nova Roma or any of its

citizens to

> bow to your politically correct notion of how discourse should take
> place on this list. , to cloak their opinions in
> hypocrisy and make nice with people who strike at the very core of

the

> mos maiorum.

.2. Now Scaurus is defending free speech, but notice it is HIS
speech not mine, nor my joke. I am now accused of being 'politically
correct' when before he skewers me for joking about his religion. He
cannot be a 'hypocrite' and moderate his view but I must be punished
severly for mine! Now Justice is fair....


3.I regard the day you applied for citizenship as a

> day of disaster rivaling the sack of Rome by the Gauls or the

crossing

> of the Rhine by the Vandals -- your worldview means the death of
> Romanitas in NR if it prevails.

It is you who wants to restrain free

> speech to your idiosyncratic, modern notions of what should and

should

> not be said.
>

3. Now I say terrible things (according to Scaurus) and now I am
the restrainer of free speech! Which person am I?

My desire for us all to think before we speak, to choose words that
are not obscene, to argue cogently, even passionately but with reason
are all in the best tradition of the philosophers. Self-control is
the Golden Mean

For you see the penalty of anger: it clouds reason.

The ML must be firmly moderated and those who disobeyed must be
punished to ensure civilty. I have and I agree with it!
If we truly believe in the Res Publica we must uphold and
enforce her laws and even more obey them! we cannot resign every
moment we are unhappy.

> >

valete omnes; I am no Goth or Vandal, merely Fabia Vera who is
happy for everyone to have their rational say.

Salvete Omnes,

>A. Apollonius Cordus wrote:

> I tell you what, let's try a little
> thought-experiment. Imagine what would happen if,
> tomorrow, everyone were simply to stop talking about
> lawsuits. No one saying anything about them on the
> main list. We talk about history, films, literature;
> we talk about politics, legislation; we discuss
> whether to make libel legal again; we discuss who
> should replace the resigned censor; we discuss whether
> the sky is blue. One or two people continue to sue one
> another privately. On the main list we talk about
> other things. Their friends try to persuade them,
> privately, not to sue each other. On the main list we
> talk about other things. Any cases which get to court
> are decided, the defendants acquitted or convicted,
> all in private. On the main list we talk about other
> things. The people who were suing each other now get
> on with their lives. On the main list we talk about
> other things.
>
> Now consider: if we do that, will there still be a
> crisis, or will it perhaps have suddenly gone away?
> Hmm. Shall we try it and see?

I completely agree with Cordus on this matter. With that said, I offer the
following additional comments:

The current system is fundamentally flawed in its interpretation that
politics and laws are the centerpiece of our society. They are important
but not vital. Without the Religio, Nova Roma would not exist. There is no
question that laws and government provide the framework for the Religio to
be shared equally by all. However, the Religio defines the values and
practices of the citizen.


Valete,

Equestria Iunia Laeca

IVLIA VOPISCA QVIRITIBVS SALVTEM DICIT

It is my hope that our Scaurus will remain a Citizen and not resign
his offices. My apologies... I received word a bit late to respond
appropriately. Things seem to move all too quickly in this main
forum; time and again we have lost wonderful and capable Citizens.
My belief is that as Romani, what we share is so much greater than
any differences of opinion! In haste, in anger, sometimes this is
forgotten in the moment. Sometimes it is in the nature of electronic
fora that participants get a bit reactive because the richness of
face-to-face contact is lacking. Let us make allowance for that and
be more gentle with each other, even when opinions differ. Please
let us remember what brought us here and the virtues and love shared
among us. I thank you for considering the words of reconciliation
offered by my hand, invoking the protection of the Immortal Gods.

BENE VALETE IN LVCE DEORVM


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Romans:
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus said in part
>
> "....I, on the other hand, am currently drafting my resignation

letter from

> all my offices and citizenship....
>
>
> Now we have a real problem!!!!!
>
> If any of you care about Nova Roma you, as an individual need to

do all that you can to see that this DOES NOT happen.

>
>
> Please stay! PLEASE!
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes;
I wish to praise a civis who I believe is a fine example to us all:
Lucius Arminius Faustus
Not only a devoted Tribune of the Plebis and Propraetor of Brasilia,
he posts historical information on the ML for the edification of us
all, a lover of the Religio he also has a kind heart for all the
cives of different relgions.
He writes inspring carmen to the gods, but never an unkind word
on this list. He has advised me, as a friend, to watch my hasty
temper. It is easy to praise someone but takes effort to help them
overcome their faults.
I admire Lucius Arminius for his Romanitas and I hope you will all
see what a fine person, a fine example he is of Nova Roma at its best.
bene vale in amore deorum
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta

IVLIA VOPISCA QVIRITIBVS S P D

I am so sorry to witness the loss of a valued Citizen and Gens
brother of mine, as much I deeply regret the harm that such verbal
sparring inflicts again and again on our community of Novoromani.

However it started, I pray the Gods that it all settles down quickly,
that tempers may cool, and that all may remember those attributes
which drew us to Nova Roma in the beginning. Perhaps by my own
carelessness my earlier post seems to have been lost, but in essence
it contained the wish that hasty words and hasty actions might be
undone.

To me it seems that part of the problem is in the nature of such
lists; without "body language" and such, a great part of
communication is lost and words seem to run away from what was
intended.

To the Cyprian Goddess, I appeal for the balm of peace and
reconsideration of what all here truly cherish.

VALE IN LVCE DEORVM

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

On a totally different note...

In case you haven't heard about it there is a really "neat" service called Live Journal, or what people call a blogg. It is an on-line journal, and its free (you can upgrade to a payed account and get more features).

There is a Nova Roma live journal community:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/novaroma

I think it would be excellent to have more Nova Romans utilizing Live Journal, and helping to get the Nova Roma community on Live Journal active. I like it much better than communicating through yahoo e-mail lists!

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

G. Equitius Cato S.P.D.

salvete,

Athanasius, how do you get "into" the journal? There doesn't seem to
be a place to "enter" it, unless it's simple to respond to a comment
already there?

valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
>
> On a totally different note...
>
> In case you haven't heard about it there is a really "neat" service
called Live Journal, or what people call a blogg. It is an on-line
journal, and its free (you can upgrade to a payed account and get
more features).
>
> There is a Nova Roma live journal community:
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/community/novaroma
>
> I think it would be excellent to have more Nova Romans utilizing
Live Journal, and helping to get the Nova Roma community on Live
Journal active. I like it much better than communicating through
yahoo e-mail lists!
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius

G. Equitius Cato S.P.D.

salvete omnes,

Well, I guess this answers the question I asked, unfortunately.

valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Speaking of roaches I figured that it was only a mater of time until
> this jibbering jackass started posting poison pen letters again.
>

Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Cato salutem dicit

Go to:

http://www.livejournal.com

You can create your own live journal.

My live journal is:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/athanasios

Consul Marinus has a journal too:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wcg

They are a lot of fun, and I would encourage you and any Nova Roman to get one. I like them because you can add people to your "friends" list and read their public and "friends only" entries and get to really know more about a person.

Vale and happy journaling!

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/22/2004 11:04:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> G. Equitius Cato S.P.D.
>
> salvete,
>
> Athanasius, how do you get "into" the journal? There doesn't seem to
> be a place to "enter" it, unless it's simple to respond to
> a comment
> already there?
>
> valete,
>
> Cato

In a message dated 5/22/04 8:22:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:

> We have 2 wonderful Consuls, fine Tribunes of the Plebis, an active
> Senate. So let us take a breath and count our blessings
> and may Concordia watch over our great nation at last.
>
>

For you to make this statement tells me how ignorent of Nova Roma history
that you are.
There is no possible Concordia as long as NR is being pulled in two
directions. And since we were here first, why don't you leave?

QFM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Modii Athanasii,

Yes, I do agree with you. Nova Roma has lost a very good number of decent
people in critical positions.
However, It has little to do with the ONE law suit that Honorable senator
Drusus referred to. We need to work to stabilise the situation, not to point the
finger in the wrong direction ;-)

Optime Vale and respectfully,

Moravius Laureatus

In a message dated 23/05/04 01:20:56 GMT Daylight Time,
AthanasiosofSpfd@... writes:

> Gaius Modius Athanasius Moravio Laureato salutem dicit
>
> Nova Roma has lost:
>
> One Quaestor.
> One Plebeian Aedile.
> One or perhaps two Praetors.
> One Censor.
> One Curule Aedile; Pontifex, Flamen Quirinalis, and Pularius.
>
> This is a crisis. A VERY BAD OMEN!
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2004 7:01:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cornmoraviusl
> writes:
>
> >Pardon my ignorance but I was only aware of ONE law suit from one citizen
> to
> >another. ONE instance of our laws actually being tested...Does that
> >constitutes the worst crisis since "Civil War" ?
> >And I can't help but wonder : Would that ONE lawsuit had been blown out of
> >proportion if it had been filed against somebody else but Illustris Scaurus
> ?
> >Stop crying lupus Senator, we are starting to not believe
> >you any more...
> >
> >Vale
> >
> >Moravius Laureatus
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]