Salve

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I have the lare and a
statue of Vesta, with two candles to either side all surrounded by
members of my family and my wifes family above my fireplace. When I
am done I will get pictures.

Thank you

>
>
>
> Hey-- everyone else-- that's a great idea. For those of us with a

lararium in our homes, why not post a picture of it to the photos
section of the list on yahoogroups? I'd love to see what folks have.
I'll try to get one scanned in soonest.

>
>
>
> Vale,
>
>
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>
> Pater Patriae
>
>

Salvete Quirites,

I am a civis of Nova Roma who has never before spoken on the main list.
Last night I went to sleep fearing for the death of Nova Roma. Today, I rejoice that Gaius Iulius Scaurus remains with us. Gaius Iulius, I truly and deeply appreciate everything you do for our state and the religio. I beg you people to get the politics under control for the sake of us who truly love Roma and the gods and have NO WHERE else to go to share these things.

Respectfully,
Livia Cornelia Serena

G. Equitius Cato G. Equitio Marino S.D.

salve Consul,

Thanks; it's a great help. I've moved the thread to the
Mediatlantica Provincia site to continue.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> G. Equitus Cato asked:
>
> > Quick question: I looked but did not find an explanation of how
> > citizens are placed in their Centuries, or more specifically, how

it

> > is decided how "active" you are. Where can I find it *or* can
> > someone give a quick-and-dirty explanation? Thanks.
>
> Look at the Lex Fabia Centuriata, at
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-12-02-ii.html
>
> If you still have questions after that, get back to me.
>
> > On another
> > note, would it be possible to start a seperate "group" under the
> > auspices of NR for those citizens living specifically within 10

miles

> > of New York City?
>
> Sure. http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-10-08-v.html
> Read that reference to see what you need to do.
>
> Vale,
>
> -- Marinus

Fabia Vera;

You might have missed something. If I am not correct please correct me, but anyone with internet access can utilize an anonymiser website abroad and still be in the United States. The website that hosts the anonymiser sight is simply located outside of the US and therefore outside of the jurisdiction of the FBI.

So this person could verywell be located in the United States or any country that has internet access. You can put your personal paranoia aside. No on has accused you of anything.

-- Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/24/2004 3:58:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rory12001@... writes:

> Salve Scaure;
> now since you say the notes are from an anonymiser site abroad
> there is the implication that someone from abroad is sending them to
> you.
> Right now there is me,
> 1.Fabia Vera in Hibernia,
> 2.Fuscus in Italia,
> 3.and Pompeia Minucia in Canada
> and more that I cannot remember now. Innuendo is very unpleasant as
> it indicates but does not accuse.
>
> So I will say to you that
>
> 1. Fuscus and I certainly did not send them.
> a. why?
> If it were found out we would both as lawyers be thrown out of our
> Bar Associations or receive a terrible penalty. We lawyers are by
> nature cautious & would not endanger our livlihoods for so little.
>
> 2. Pompeia Minucia Tiberia did not send them to you
> a. why?
> Pomepia has a better remedy. You libeled her on the ML ('madwoman')
> She can easily sue you in the courts for plenty of American $, which
> is a more tangible revenge.
>
> So I hope you and the Main List see that our reputations
> are
> spotless in this matter.
>
> bene vale
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

When I left for a family gathering in Vermont on Saturday afternoon, I
did so with a heavy heart. Two of Nova Roma's most active and dedicated
citizens had tended their resignations, one for the office of Censor,
the other for all his offices and citizenship. My despair turned to
guarded optimism when I returned this evening and upon reading my
e-mail, learned that my friend and colleague G. Iulius Scarus had
reconsidered his resignation. I hope that in time, the esteemed M.
Octavius Germanicus will do the same and resume his office as Censor. My
relief however, was a bit soured by the revelation of the attacks that
G. Iulius Scarus has been subjected to in the past weeks. Who ever you
may be I denounce you as a scoundrel and a coward, a person utterly
lacking in honor or dignitas, and an enemy of the Res Publica. If the
authorities are unable to bring you to the justice you so richly
deserve, I pray that Nemesis and the Furies find you in this world or
the next.

Nova Roma CANNOT afford to lose citizens such as M. Germanicus Octavius
and G. Iulius Scarus. Whether or not you agree with their view points,
they have done more for Nova Roma than almost any other citizens.

I would also like to thank F. Vedius Germanicus for his "Thoughts"
post, offering a constructive message of hope in these difficult times.

In my e-mail I posted before leaving on Saturday, I promised I would
weigh in on the issues at hand:

1. I am deeply concerned by the possibility of frivolous lawsuits doing
grave damage to NR when wielded as political weapons or as a tool used
to disrupt our Res Publica by trolls seeking amusement. I do not think
Nova Roma needs a complex civil law code at this time, and I in
hindsight think enacting one was a grave mistake. It is however
currently the Law, and as such must be obeyed for now, but I think it is
in the best interests of Nova Roma to repeal the Lex Salicia Poenalis
and the Lex Salicia Iudicialis as soon as possible.

2. As a traditionalist and practitioner of the Religio, I believe the
central mission of Nova Roma is to advance the study and practice of the
Religio Romana, and I will fight to advance this view as long as I am a
citizen of Nova Roma. This does not mean I do not value the other
aspects of Nova Roma or the contributions of its non-Religio citizens.
Quite the opposite in fact. As the Religio Romana was essentially
inseparable from the fabric of Roman life and culture, the advancement
and study of any aspect of Roman civilization, be it the Arts, Roman
Law, Military History, etc., advances the Religio. As such I welcome the
participation of those citizens whose interests lie outside the Religio
Romana, as long as they do not seek to undermine the unique position
that the Religio must hold in Nova Roma. With out the Gods there is *NO*
Rome.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Rogator
Legatus Regionis Massachusetts
Lictor
Scribe

Salve Romans

In keeping with my suggestion that we have more diversity on the Mail list here is something to ponder

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



Ancient Writers:
Truth, Bias, and Point of View
copyright c 1997 by Jay King
http://myron.sjsu.edu/romeweb/WRITERS/art4.htm


Most of the primary sources one comes across when studying history are quite heavily biased. In fact, if one is to read history from a neutral or a balanced source, it is very likely to be dull and uninteresting. Writing was a lot more of a chore in ancient times and the materials and tools (stylus, wax or clay tablet, papyrus, parchment, vellum) were expensive. If a person were motivated enough to write something down it was usually from his (or occasionally her) very opinionated point of view. Some ancient historians and geographers (Herodotus, Strabo) tended to be less biased and were simply compiling all the available information of the period on their particular subject of interest. Since this was usually the "official" version, it inevitably contained a certain amount of official bias. How much more interesting it is to read an account of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) emperor Justinian and his wife Theodora by Procopius even if it is not fair. Tacitus, writing of the period 27 B.C. to about A.D. 80 had mostly derogatory things to say about his own people, the Romans of Senatorial and Equestrian (propertied) classes. Cassius Dio, writing in the early Third Century A.D. about events one or two hundred years old, would be considered a secondary source. He was hard on both Romans and barbarians, but, for obvious reasons, refrained from being too critical of the current Severan Emperors.

Civil and military leaders of the Roman Empire are often found to be quite controversial figures. Julius Caesar was a staunch supporter and reformer of or the murderer of the Republic depending on whose viewpoint you take. The author has material on Flavius Stilicho, important Roman general of the late fourth and early fifth century. Since he was half Vandal, and openly supported and implemented Emperor Theodosius' policy of heavy use of barbarian troops in defense of the Empire, he was not well liked by those who believed in purity of Roman blood in the military forces. Some contemporary sources include Jordanes, Claudian, Apollinaris, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, Bishop Ambrose of Milan, and, a little later, Zosimus. Stilicho, and for that matter Aetius, his counterpart in the 430's to 450's A.D., was condemned as being overly cruel, of favoring his friends and treating all others shabbily, of having designs on the throne, of usurping many aspects of imperial power, of conducting savage raids through loyal provinces, and of being a despotic governor. The other side of the argument has these two men showing strong leadership in an age when true leadership was almost totally unheard of.

These men faced and dealt with crises that nearly destroyed what was left of the Western Roman Empire and made the best of a bad military situation and an inept and weak government. In this last case, those who applaud Stilicho and Aetius also condemn Honorius and Valentinian III as weak puppet emperors with an acute lack of initiative of any kind.

A few interesting items of ancient trivia may help you and your class to realize how these peoples' lives were radically different and yet very much like our own. Graffiti on the walls of Pompeii promotes political candidates, sings the praises of popular gladiators, and instructs the reader with whom he might spend the evening and a few copper coins having a good time. Students will be surprised at how much of the modern world they can recognize in history.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,
I have been quite silent during this days, on my window looking and
reading the chaotic and uncivil and boring nova roman discussions.
But now I would like to write a couple of sentences. I'll appreciate
if you'll read them. If you don't read them it's not important,
they'll other words of your big role-game called NR.

A civil and organized group of people works well only by civil laws.
All the organizations, from a little club to a big Nation, need
civil laws. A system without rules is called Anarchy.
Do you would like an anarchical Nova Roma? me not!
I'm reading someone claiming we don't need laws ... why? are we a so
little group of people able to talk as civil as possible? able to
organize our job without un-useful discussion? interested to work
firstly? able to follow just one goal, the conservation of Rome?
able to leave our personal political games and dreams?
Not, we aren't this... we're an world organization composed by more
than 1000 members, where we are able only to talk and talk and talk
and talk and talk and talk and talk.... unuseful words and few
actions ... little men following the personal political frustrations
and/or trying to transform this group in a macronational political
ring and/or playing in a big role-game...
What a sad scenario ....

The problem are not the laws. You all did the laws, you all voted
them, you all accepted them because you all know that we can't
manage an organization without rules. The problem is not the laws,
the problem are the citizens un-respecting them. You accepted this
laws and maybe you supported them. Now, when this laws are not
useful or not good for your interests, you refuse them. You don't
like them, change them ... and not claiming rights, scandals,
abuses ... not resigning your Office, this is not Roman!

What you're following? What is your goal? what do you think about NR?
I think NR is a great organization and you know that if we would
grow as weel as possible, we have to develop a structure based on
strong laws uniting the people and not dividing them.

ROMA WAS GREAT AND POWERFUL BECAUSE IT WAS A SOCIETY OF LAWS!!!!
The Romans weren't barbarians unable to have a sustem of civil laws,
a complex and detailed codex of rules. The Romans knew (and before
the greeks) that an organization without civil laws was barbarian,
anarchical, weak...
And now, the higher magistrates of our little Res Publica and the
men calling "traditionalists" refused the laws and a system based on
a detailed codex of rules? Do you know that you're refusing the
Tradition? that you're refusing the aim of the roman society?

DURA LEX, SED LEX ... claiming the real and ancient Romans!!!
ALL ARE EQUAL IN FRONT OF THE LAW ... claiming the Courts of all the
modern Nations!!!
What is this for us? This are only stupid sentences useful when the
laws are good for our personal interests? We all are equal in front
of our laws, noboby is better than another citizen, no magistrate is
better than a new citizen. You're acting like the old fascist
governments or maybe the actual italian: the friends of the boss are
immune by sentences, the laws favor the interests of a little group
of people and when this laws are not useful or not good for the
personal goals and interests, they are removed ....

And reading the previous message of the last week-end I read,
between un-useful resignations and offenses by and against lawyers,
modern political manifestos very similar to a modern Nation than the
Ancient Rome. I read traditionalists claiming their party following
teh Tradition, but where is the Tradition? I'm sure that some of you
works as well as possible and I consider some of you great friends.
But you know that others of you are only following the own personal
macronational political goals. You lost the elections of the last
two years, you committed a long list of errors attacking and being
rude and arrogant ... now you're trying to restore your image.
And the Digni or Populares or "friends of Caeso" or what is your
name... where are you? Where are you when our Res Publica is
crossing a string chrisis? What you're doing to restore
your "dignitas" gunned by resigning officers and a boring political
main mailing list? I'm one of you and I'm boring of you too...

However...
The next month in my city there will the local elections. There are
1.050 candidates for 45 places in the Municipal Chamber. Everybody
is trying to take votes and everyone talk about the future of my
city. There are more parties than citizens...
And There will the provincial and the european elections ...
If I would talk about macronational political affairs or play to be
a politic managing citizens, I'ld be a candidate in my city ...
Well, would like an organization like a modern Nation within a
bipolarist structure and political parties?
Well. I'll accept it, I'll create my party ... the "Api" ...
from "friends of Apulus" and from the italian words
meaning "bees" ... the bees works and works and works saying no
words and defending his job and creating the honey for a queen, a
queen called NR.

This is what I'm doing in NR now ... no words, only jobs ... the
time and the citizens in the future will see what unusefel are your
words and what mean the job now.

I don't know anything more ... I don't know where is the Nova Roma I
met 4 years ago. Where are the goals followed when I won the
quaestorship?
Soneone calling for a Dictator fearing the fall of NR ... let NR
fall, let this little men destroy themself and this organization,
let the people resign the own office, let the old and best
magistrates be tired and bored ... teh arabian phenix will rise
again from the ruins!!!

Now please, attack me for this crazy words, present petition,
critice my stupid sentences, write other words and other words and
other words ... a mountain of words...
I'll ignore them, my interest now is to see what you all are able to
do for NR and his groth.
I'll come back to my daily job for NR and my Provincia continuing to
work without words ...
Thank you for your attenction and sorry for my english.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar

Salvete Quirites,

"Sp. Fabia Vera" wrote:

> Salve Diana;
> Not to worry I've found your posts. They were onlist!
> you called the praetors from this very list, actually please check
> post #23146 "attn Praetors"
> Then Spurius Postumius Tubertus in post #23252 says 'in loco
> praetoris' due to your complaint he will punish me.

Since I'm the one who directed Tubertus to take that action, I will
say now that I don't see it as a private action between just these
two parties. I ordered the moderation of Fabia Vera because I thought
it was needed for the general good. While I thanked Diana for bringing
the matter to my attention at the time, I am not going to be swayed by
any requests for clemency now.

Be patient Fabia Vera, and the time will pass.

Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Salve Fusce,

> Over the mailing list of Provincia Italia the good
> Franciscus Apulus daily posts a series of articles (where he finds

so many of

> them and in Italian, is a mystery to me) spacing from art to

history to

> announcements of events. Some of them originates discussions (some

of which at

> times go heavily off track, but heyÂ…), some stay as such and

remain as

> informative bits, but all actually enrich the members of that

list.

Thank you very much for your note about my daily job :-) I'm happy
that someone appreciate my "scanning for information".
I have a detailed a long list of sources, my bookmarks folder is
full of inetresting specialized websites and other newspapers and
web-magazines where I know I could find good news. The majority of
this sources are in italian but I'm starting to collect sources in
other languages. Of course, my problem is the language ;-)
In any way I suggest you to check the web-zine CulturalWeb of teh
italian Cultural Ministry. It is very detailed and raise all the
information and news about the culture in our Land.

About the italian mailing list, I agree with you. It grows well
because we're able to mix cultural information and news and civil
discussions about Rome ... and nothing more. The provincial staff of
our Illustrus Propraetor Manius Constantinus Serapio is working
about many live projects and events for the next summer, we hope in
this way to increase the number of members of our local community
and raise experts from many fields liek the academies and the re-
enactment.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Legatus Italiae

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem VIII Kalendae Iunii and sacred to Fortuna; the day is
comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem VII Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

Salve

Scaurus certainly did not make the inference that it was definitely
someone from outside the USA. As someone has pointed out, the SITES
are overseas. But anybody in any country can access them.

Are you perhaps feeling guilty, Vera, or are you simply paranoid?

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Cicero


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:

> there is
> > effectively no way to trace such email beyond the anonymiser site
> and
> > since the sites are abroad,
>
> Salve Scaure;
> now since you say the notes are from an anonymiser site abroad
> there is the implication that someone from abroad is sending them

to

> you.
> Right now there is me,
> 1.Fabia Vera in Hibernia,
> 2.Fuscus in Italia,
> 3.and Pompeia Minucia in Canada
> and more that I cannot remember now. Innuendo is very unpleasant

as

> it indicates but does not accuse.
>
> So I will say to you that
>
> 1. Fuscus and I certainly did not send them.
> a. why?
> If it were found out we would both as lawyers be thrown out of

our

> Bar Associations or receive a terrible penalty. We lawyers are by
> nature cautious & would not endanger our livlihoods for so little.
>
> 2. Pompeia Minucia Tiberia did not send them to you
> a. why?
> Pomepia has a better remedy. You libeled her on the ML

('madwoman')

> She can easily sue you in the courts for plenty of American $,

which

> is a more tangible revenge.
>
> So I hope you and the Main List see that our reputations are
> spotless in this matter.
>
> bene vale
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

Salve Flavius Vedius Germanicus,

There is a list to discuss the formation of local groups:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Oppidia_et_Municipia/

There hasn't been much discussion on the list but it is there.
Perhaps you could move your conversation there as well so we can all
benefit from any ideas you have. Here in Lacus Magni, at least in
Ohio, we get together fairly regularly. Honestly, the local meetings
are what keeps me in NR during the rough periods. Good luck with
your meetings!

Vale,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia

> I see you're subscribed to the Mediatlantica email list. Let's take
> up the topic there, if you don't mind; contrary to some, if there's
> a list appropriate to a specific topic, I'd much rather take a
> conversation there. There are a bunch of questions that need to be
> hashed out. And of course, anyone here who's in or around NYC,
> please participate as well!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Pater Patriae

G. Equitius Cato A. Modiae Aureliae S.D.

salve Modia,

Thanks! I've just submitted an application to join that group, and
I've posted on the Mediatlantica site, so hopefully things will begin
to gel.

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Agrippina Modia Aurelia"
<whiterose13.geo@y...> wrote:

> Salve Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>
> There is a list to discuss the formation of local groups:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Oppidia_et_Municipia/
>
> There hasn't been much discussion on the list but it is there.
> Perhaps you could move your conversation there as well so we can

all

> benefit from any ideas you have. Here in Lacus Magni, at least in
> Ohio, we get together fairly regularly. Honestly, the local

meetings

> are what keeps me in NR during the rough periods. Good luck with
> your meetings!
>
> Vale,
>
> Agrippina Modia Aurelia
>
> > I see you're subscribed to the Mediatlantica email list. Let's

take

> > up the topic there, if you don't mind; contrary to some, if

there's

> > a list appropriate to a specific topic, I'd much rather take a
> > conversation there. There are a bunch of questions that need to

be

> > hashed out. And of course, anyone here who's in or around NYC,
> > please participate as well!
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Pater Patriae

G. Iulius Scaurus Sp. Fabiae Verae salutem dicit.

Salve, Sp. Fabia Vera.

> now since you say the notes are from an anonymiser site abroad
>there is the implication that someone from abroad is sending them to
>you.
>Right now there is me,
>1.Fabia Vera in Hibernia,
>2.Fuscus in Italia,
>3.and Pompeia Minucia in Canada
> and more that I cannot remember now. Innuendo is very unpleasant as
>it indicates but does not accuse.
>

Let me repeat. I have no earthly idea who has been doing it. I know
perfectly well none of you live in Indonesia, Malaysia, India, South
Korea, Costa Rica, or Finalnd -- which are some of the locales of these
sites -- but I also know that anyone with a computer and a modem
anywhere in the world can access them. The only thing I can infer from
the fact that a US anonymiser site has not been used is that the
perpetrator realises it would be less trouble and cost getting a
subpoena from a district court in the US to disclose the perptetrator's
email address than doing so in any other country thousands of miles
away, but it does not take legal genius to figure that out. I have no
reason to believe that you or anyone else you listed is doing this;
indeed, the fact that all of you have the ballocks to argue with me in a
signed venue suggests exactly the contrary because the perpretrator of
these attacks is clearly a ballock-less coward.

Vale.

Scaurus

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I have no bloody idea who has been sending me harrassing emails. It is
simply a fact that anonymiser sites outside the US have been used.
Anyone anywhere in the world could use those sites so it says nothing
about the location of the perpetrator whatsoever. It is also a fact
that US law enforcement does not have the resources to go after such
sites abroad for electronic harrassment, since resources are already
strained in combatting terrorism or investigating electronic fraud
cases. If the sites were in the US, it would be rather easier to haul
them into court and demand identification of the perpetrator, which is
the reason, I presume, that the perpetrator uses foreign sites.

Valete.

Scaurus

A. Apollonius Cordus to all his fellow-citizens and
all peregrines, greetings.

Allow me to say to begin with that I am not now and
have never been a member of any organised political
faction or party, that I have never been invited to
join any such group, and that I entertain a hearty
animosity towards the idea of conducting politics by
means of parties, factions, and alliances rather than
by means of persons and policies.

All that means that I'm not very well-informed about
the factions and alliances which do exist. But let me
offer what I can.

I think the Boni have done themselves no favours by
keeping their membership partly open and partly
secret. For one thing, secrecy of any form invites
suspicion, and it is perfectly natural for outsiders
to assume that a group which wants to hide its
members' identities may be up to something, or,
equally, that a group whose members do not wish their
identities to be known must be one to be a member of
which is a source of shame or embarrassment. Whether
any of these things are he case, have no idea, but I
think the Boni must realise that this is the
impression they have given by declining to disclose
their identities in full.

Moreover, the fact that a few Boni have been
consistently open about their memberhsip of that group
has led others, quite reasonably, to assume that their
political views and their style of self-expression
were representative of the group as a whole. This has
perhaps made people who are not big fans of those few
members to take an excessively negative view of the
group as a whole, and they can hardly be blamed for
doing so. For myself, I may say that the news that my
compatriot Iunius Silanus is a member (if indeed that
is true, for he has not said so in quite so many
words) has done considerably more to raise my
estimation of the Boni than to lower my estimation of
him.

On the other hand, I can understand why some may have
been reluctant to disclose their membership, for there
is undoubtedly a tendency is some quarters (as Senator
Fortunatus has mentioned) to assume that the Boni are
an entirely malevolent force within Nova Roma and that
anyone who is a member must be a rotten apple. This
probably arises from the belief that the Boni are
highly organised and united. Whether this is true, I
don't know; I find it more unlikely the more I hear
about them. But they themselves have done very little
to dispel this view, and the existence of a dedicated
e-mail list does tend to suggest, in the absence of
any other explanation for its existence, some level of
strategic coordination. This idea is backed up by the
fact that at least one member has said in the past
'here is a message which I posted to the Boni list a
few days ago' - the message was plainly intended as a
political statement for public consumption, so it was
natural to assume that the reason it had been posted
to the Boni list beforehand was not to persuade the
Boni that it was correct - that would have been
preaching to the converted - but to solicit
suggestions for its improvement, or some such thing -
i.e., for the purpose of strategic coordination.
Perhaps the reason was quite different, but the
interpretation I've outlined was to me the most
natural one given the information I had at the time,
and the Boni themselves must take responsibility for
giving this impression.

It is interesting to notice that we're hearing now
several people saying that they were encouraged to
join the Boni, or consider them in a more sympathetic
light, by the paranoia of those who go too far in
opposing the Boni in principle. To depict the Boni as
a subversive force with a secret plan to destroy
everyone but themselves is, I suspect, to give them
far more credit and to make them sound far more
exciting than they are; it also makes oneself sound
rather paranoid. There is also, I think, a tendency
for people who oppose the public Boni to assume that
anyone they disagree with must be a Bonus also. This
surely has no effect but to drive non-aligned people
into the arms of the Boni: if A disagrees with B, and
B says everyone who disagrees with him is a Bonus,
then A has a great incentive to go and join the Boni!

If I may be permitted to give some advice to those who
are members of the Boni or of any similar group of
alliance, it is this: be as open as possible about
your group, what it does, and what it is, or you will
have only yourself to blame when you find yourself
implicated in conspiracy theories; more than this,
recognise that if you belong to such a group and run
for election without declaring your membership, you
are deceiving the voting public; and finally, consider
that the greatest service your group can do to Nova
Roma is to disband entirely. We are not such a huge
community that names on ballot-papers are meaningless
without an explanatory party label, and few people are
strong enough to resist the tendency of factions,
parties, and organised groups to make their members
homogeneous in outlook, closed-minded, distrustful of
outsiders, and concerned more for the perpetuation and
aggrandisement of the faction itself than for the
promotion and pursuit of the ideological goals the
faction claims to espouse. No one sinks in my
estimation simply by being a member of some particular
party, but anyone sinks in my estmation by being a
member of any party at all.





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A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sicinius Drusus,
and to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

Is it not fair to say that taxes, animal sacrifice, a
complicated political system, and most of all the
freedom to argue vigourously and passionately on the
main list are all things which make people leave Nova
Roma? Shall we, then, ban all these things also? Or is
it possible that there are some things which are so
fundamental to the nature and purpose of Nova Roma
that we must keep them regardless of who they may
offend, since the alternative is to turn ourselves
into a fluffy, all-embracing, vacuous, soulless
association?

I expect there are some people who are driven away
from Nova Roma by the fact that it is a pagan
organisation which espouses the religio Romana as its
official religion. Shall we do away with the religio?
Or shall we decide that it is fundamental to the
nature of Nova Roma and that anyone who can't accept
that had better leave?

Yes, you're probably right that there are some people
who are driven away from Nova Roma by the fact that we
organise ourselves like the Roman republic, which
includes giving the magistrates the power to propose
laws and the assemblies the power to vote on them. But
this, too, is fundamental, and this, too, is not
negotiable. The change you are suggesting we make to
the constitution would be so great as to leave our
constitution unrecognisable as one modelled on the
Roman republic. I can no more countenance a Nova Roma
in which the magistrates in the assembly do not
constitute the legislative power than I would
countenance a Nova Roma in which the religio Romana is
not the official religion.





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The Rogator A. Apollonius Cordus to all his
fellow-citizens, greetings.

Remember that the polls are now open in the comitia
populi tributa, electing a new quaestor and voting on
several legislative proposals. Here is your chance to
influence the direction of Nova Roma. Please cast your votes.





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Salve,

There is a mistaken. You are assuming all laws are puntive. No, there
is laws ´to explain´, laws to ´bring back to the Mos Maiorum´ and
even the few punitive laws, consider them as ´restrictive´, to
prevent thing to reach that point. So, laws to ´explain better´ the
roman way and the acting of the magistratures are welcome.

From all History of Nova Roma, just last month was used the
dispositive of ´a punitive measure´. Rightly or not, I do not,
because there was no judgement.

The Republic is on the verge of the sucess. We must forecast its
necessities and have internal ordenations. And on Ancient Rome new
laws have turmoiled as well.

Ops? What I´m saying? We are on a peaceful Contio, where Consular and
Tribunitian proposals are creating NO turmoil. So, this argument ´new
laws causes turmoil´ is not valid.

> That is why I say it's time to place severe restrictions on
> Magistrates ability to promulgate new Leges. We need a time of
> healing, and we aren't going to get one if magistrates continue to
> upset things by attempting to impose their will on others via more

Leges.

This is not Roman. Sparthan, perhaps, but not roman. The Libertas
include the rigth to submit to the will of the people proposals. This
is the basis of all fredom.

Alas, inside the Potestas, the power of Roman Magistrates, are the
´right to propose to the Comitia´ - So, we cannot restrain that.

"and we aren't going to get one if magistrates continue to

> upset things by attempting to impose their will on others via more

Leges."

Who were imposing? All laws start just as proposals and are aproved
by the Comitia.

So, the aproved laws are the emanation of the will of the Comitia.

Alas, there are the auspices. If the gods feels there is not wise a
Comitia, they will show their will with bad auspices.

I have dozen times said lots of causes of our lacking of citizens,
and I will repeat dozen more, perhaps someone hear this Tribune and
start to think:

I - Lack of deep classical studies - THIS atract the scholars, people
who really knows about Rome. The universities should be our main
source of citizens.

II - English predominance as political language, preventing non-
english speakers to participate. I feel this on Europe and Latin
America too much, and it is one of our biggest Achilles´ knee.

III - Taxes - we do not need so much money. And people are not
desiring to send their money to a few known organization.

IV - Religio bashing - Specially against the Christians. We do not
have much pagans on the middle of the world to join NR, so if we turn
NR a unwelcome place to christians, we will lost our most valuable
citizens.

V - Lack of Domestic Religio - We say too much about the gods, we
worship too little. How many really have a lararium on Home? How many
make the right worship, the roman orthopraxis? If I would be Iove,
I´d be very angry with much ´mounth/email only´ worship.

VI - Political parties, who uses public ashaming and ´shock-troops´
on Main List to bash citizens until their resignation. Perhaps if
they turn NR into a nicer place, people would renounce little less.

The possible injustices of our laws are the easiest to correct. For
example, if you disagree of Lex Salicia, go with a tribune and
propose a law revoking it. If you disagree with Lex Arminia, that is
going to the Comitia, just vote NO.

So simple. No stress. Life is beautiful and Nova Roma is on the verge
of sucess, I´m saying.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Again this is a VOLUNTARY organization. That means you do the things
> you choose to do. Laws are a restriction of people's choice, if

people

> disagree with a law then they leave.
>
> Ask someone who was here on the Ides of March 2754, (2001 CE) about
> people leaving due to laws and arguments over laws. We had a mass
> resignation that day largely due to a proposed Lex. Senators,
> Flamines, a Tribune, all resigning due to arguments stirred up by a
> proposed law.
>
> Laws and proposed laws have done more damage, stirred up more

hatred,

> caused more trouble than any other thing in Nova Roma, more than
> everything else combined.
>
> Nova Roma has a couple of hundred active members. The Number isn't
> growing because we lose old members as fast as we sign up new one.

If

> anything the number of active members is decreasing rather than
> increasing. We have a problem, and a major part of that problem is
> endless political fights caused by laws and fear of what laws

someone

> will promulgate if elected.
>
> We have fewer than 200 tax paying citizens. We are a small village,
> not a great city or a vast empire. We don't need all of these rules
> and restrictions at this stage of our growth. We certainly don't

need

> the fights, the arguments, the hostility that is aroused again and
> again over some damn law or another.
>
> That is why I say it's time to place severe restrictions on
> Magistrates ability to promulgate new Leges. We need a time of
> healing, and we aren't going to get one if magistrates continue to
> upset things by attempting to impose their will on others via more

Leges.

>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > "Laws and the law making process are one of the primary reasons

that

> > people grow disastified with Nova Roma and either resign or

simply

> > drift away."
> >
> > This is non-sense. I cannot even imagine why this afirmation.

Why?

> > Why? It is an free afirmation, I see no reason why or what can

make

> > someone believing on this.
> >
> > This is a Non-Profit Organization/Micronation styled on the Roman
> > Republic and the way we rule ourselves is throught the voting of
> > internal procedures we call ´Laws-Leges´.
> >
> > What make people leave Nova Roma?
> >
> > "Remember this, any time you propose a law, you are performing an
> > action that has chased people away from Nova Roma in the past,

and

> > which may chase more people away if it passes."
> >
> > This is not true. Everytime we propose a law we are better

defining

> > the scope of this organization and its internal procedures of

work.

> > Alas, we are not imposing anything, but proposing to the people.

The

> > roman people of the quirites on NR are the truly owner of a law.

And

> > you can call ´Law´, ´Internal Procedure´,´ Deliberation of the

Body

> > of the Members´, etc etc etc ad nauseam.
> >
> > And you should consider also this ´strange phenomena´ (I cannot

see

> > why or the connection) happens with the Constitution, Pontifical
> > Decreta, Senatus Consultum, Edictum, etc, not only leges of the
> > Comitia. Kill them all, so. So, we proves ad absurdum this

argument

> > is not valid.
> >
> > These are completely separated subjects, and they have no

conection.

> > Alas, the leaving of citizens are a completely complex subject. I

can

> > say many causes for that: Language Bounds, Religio Bashing, Lack

of

> > Classical Studies, Expensive Taxes, etc, etc, etc...
> >
> > Nova Roma needs as many laws as the magistrates choosen by its

people

> > find necessary, and the people will agree, they will aprove the

laws -

> > if they disagree, they will disaprove.
> >
> > Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > > Salve Tribune,
> > >
> > > You have left out one very important right, the right to leave

Nova

> > > Roma, a right that many have exercised over laws and debates

over

> > laws.
> > >
> > > No mater how many times Nova Roma is called a nation, it is

above

> > > everything else a voluntary organization that people can leave

if

> > they
> > > are upset over a law, have left because they were upset over a

law,

> > > and where people will leave in the future over some law that is
> > passed.
> > >
> > > Laws and the law making process are one of the primary reasons

that

> > > people grow disastified with Nova Roma and either resign or

simply

> > > drift away.
> > >
> > > This isn't a real world nation where emigrating means leaving

family

> > > behind. You don't have to sell off your home and other goods to
> > leave
> > > Nova Roma. You don't even have to bother with a resignation,

all it

> > > takes is a few mouse clicks to unsub from mailing lists. This

ease

> > of
> > > emigration is something that few are considering when they

propose

> > > Leges. Nova Roma's Laws will never bind someone to obey them

because

> > > if some one dislikes a law enough they will simply leave.
> > >
> > > Remember this, any time you propose a law, you are performing an
> > > action that has chased people away from Nova Roma in the past,

and

> > > which may chase more people away if it passes.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > Senator
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > > <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis ex officio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > People are - politicaly perhaps - making confusion. Allow me

to

> > > having a conversation on the subject:
> > > >
> > > > I - The freedom to issue new laws is the basis of the sucess

of

> > > Ancient and Nova Roma.
> > > >
> > > > II - People are deliberating confusing ´support to a law´ as
> > > ´allowance of new laws´.
> > > >
> > > > III - If you have something against a law, you have the

rights -

> > > most powerful rights - to do the following:
> > > >
> > > > III a) In the Contio, show the citizens the foulness of the
> > > proposal. Gather ´NO´ votes. On Ancient Rome it always worked.

This

> > > was so powerful that the patricians delayed 10 years with their
> > votes
> > > a first plebeian consul after approved Lex Licinia.
> > > >
> > > > III b) If the law is passed, after, gather a legislative
> > magistrate
> > > and submit another law to the Comitia revoking the specifical
> > aspects
> > > that you really feel the damage to the Res Publica. If the

people

> > > agrees, they will vote ´yes´.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > IV - Who wants to participate of a Res Publica without new

laws,

> > go
> > > creating New Sparta, not Nova Roma. Only remember Sparta has

fallen

> > > by haven´t changed, while Rome conquered the West World.
> > > >
> > > > V - The will of the people of Nova Roma can be only expressed
> > > throught the Comitia voting, they vote proposals called ´laws´ -

> > ´leges´.
> > > >
> > > > VI - The name Lex is so powerful and sacred, that even the
> > > recognition of passing of Imperium from the Comitia

Curiata/Calata

> > is
> > > called ´Lex Curiata´
> > > >
> > > > VII - The right of proposing new laws is sacred duty of the
> > > consules, preatores and tribunes. I can´t remember a time on

Roman

> > > History this right was prevented. Oh... only on Sulla

dictatorship.

> > > >
> > > > VIII - Having 10 small laws, or 1 big one... does make any
> > > difference? So, do not complain about the number of them.
> > > >
> > > > IX - If we prevent new laws to be voted, we take out much of

the

> > > power of the People. We turn the government into
> > > Aristocratic/Oligarch. This is not Rome. Remember the sucess of

the

> > > roman republic government was a balance between
> > > Consules/Senate/Comitia - joining the better of monarch, the

better

> > of
> > > aristocratic, the better of democratic.
> > > >
> > > > X - Saying ´the laws are preventing NR of something´ is not

true.

> > > All the civil unrest on Ancient Rome were resolved with a laws.

This

> > > is the Mos Maiorum. And... what a hell... none are entablishing
> > laws,
> > > but proposing laws. Preventing new laws to the Comitia is to

not

> > trust
> > > the wiseness of People of Nova Roma. And I remember ´Vox

Populi, Vox

> > > Dei´.
> > > >
> > > > Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > > >
> > > > L. Arminius Faustus TRP
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Messenger - Fale com seus amigos online. Instale agora!
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato A. Apollonio Cordo quiritibusque S.P.D.

salvete omnes,

I just wanted to state, for the record, that I am NOT a Boni.

:)


valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius Cordus to all his fellow-citizens and
> all peregrines, greetings.
>
> Allow me to say to begin with that I am not now and
> have never been a member of any organised political
> faction or party, that I have never been invited to
> join any such group, and that I entertain a hearty
> animosity towards the idea of conducting politics by
> means of parties, factions, and alliances rather than
> by means of persons and policies.
>
> All that means that I'm not very well-informed about
> the factions and alliances which do exist. But let me
> offer what I can.
>
> I think the Boni have done themselves no favours by
> keeping their membership partly open and partly
> secret. For one thing, secrecy of any form invites
> suspicion, and it is perfectly natural for outsiders
> to assume that a group which wants to hide its
> members' identities may be up to something, or,
> equally, that a group whose members do not wish their
> identities to be known must be one to be a member of
> which is a source of shame or embarrassment. Whether
> any of these things are he case, have no idea, but I
> think the Boni must realise that this is the
> impression they have given by declining to disclose
> their identities in full.
>
> Moreover, the fact that a few Boni have been
> consistently open about their memberhsip of that group
> has led others, quite reasonably, to assume that their
> political views and their style of self-expression
> were representative of the group as a whole. This has
> perhaps made people who are not big fans of those few
> members to take an excessively negative view of the
> group as a whole, and they can hardly be blamed for
> doing so. For myself, I may say that the news that my
> compatriot Iunius Silanus is a member (if indeed that
> is true, for he has not said so in quite so many
> words) has done considerably more to raise my
> estimation of the Boni than to lower my estimation of
> him.
>
> On the other hand, I can understand why some may have
> been reluctant to disclose their membership, for there
> is undoubtedly a tendency is some quarters (as Senator
> Fortunatus has mentioned) to assume that the Boni are
> an entirely malevolent force within Nova Roma and that
> anyone who is a member must be a rotten apple. This
> probably arises from the belief that the Boni are
> highly organised and united. Whether this is true, I
> don't know; I find it more unlikely the more I hear
> about them. But they themselves have done very little
> to dispel this view, and the existence of a dedicated
> e-mail list does tend to suggest, in the absence of
> any other explanation for its existence, some level of
> strategic coordination. This idea is backed up by the
> fact that at least one member has said in the past
> 'here is a message which I posted to the Boni list a
> few days ago' - the message was plainly intended as a
> political statement for public consumption, so it was
> natural to assume that the reason it had been posted
> to the Boni list beforehand was not to persuade the
> Boni that it was correct - that would have been
> preaching to the converted - but to solicit
> suggestions for its improvement, or some such thing -
> i.e., for the purpose of strategic coordination.
> Perhaps the reason was quite different, but the
> interpretation I've outlined was to me the most
> natural one given the information I had at the time,
> and the Boni themselves must take responsibility for
> giving this impression.
>
> It is interesting to notice that we're hearing now
> several people saying that they were encouraged to
> join the Boni, or consider them in a more sympathetic
> light, by the paranoia of those who go too far in
> opposing the Boni in principle. To depict the Boni as
> a subversive force with a secret plan to destroy
> everyone but themselves is, I suspect, to give them
> far more credit and to make them sound far more
> exciting than they are; it also makes oneself sound
> rather paranoid. There is also, I think, a tendency
> for people who oppose the public Boni to assume that
> anyone they disagree with must be a Bonus also. This
> surely has no effect but to drive non-aligned people
> into the arms of the Boni: if A disagrees with B, and
> B says everyone who disagrees with him is a Bonus,
> then A has a great incentive to go and join the Boni!
>
> If I may be permitted to give some advice to those who
> are members of the Boni or of any similar group of
> alliance, it is this: be as open as possible about
> your group, what it does, and what it is, or you will
> have only yourself to blame when you find yourself
> implicated in conspiracy theories; more than this,
> recognise that if you belong to such a group and run
> for election without declaring your membership, you
> are deceiving the voting public; and finally, consider
> that the greatest service your group can do to Nova
> Roma is to disband entirely. We are not such a huge
> community that names on ballot-papers are meaningless
> without an explanatory party label, and few people are
> strong enough to resist the tendency of factions,
> parties, and organised groups to make their members
> homogeneous in outlook, closed-minded, distrustful of
> outsiders, and concerned more for the perpetuation and
> aggrandisement of the faction itself than for the
> promotion and pursuit of the ideological goals the
> faction claims to espouse. No one sinks in my
> estimation simply by being a member of some particular
> party, but anyone sinks in my estmation by being a
> member of any party at all.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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Articles on Roman Government - X - Dies


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

Dies
The ancients distinguished (1) dies civilis (nuchthêmeron), the time
in which the sun apparently completed a course around the earth,
including thus both night and day; and

(2) dies naturalis or the time between the rising and the setting of
the sun. The civil day began with the Athenians at the setting of the
sun; with the Romans (as with the Egyptians and Hipparchus) at
midnight; with the Babylonians at the rising of the sun, and with the
Umbrians at mid-day (Macrob. Saturn. i. 3; Gell.iii. 2).

At the time of the Homeric poems, the natural day was divided into
three parts ( Il.xxi. 111). The first, called êôs, began with sunrise
and comprehended the whole space of time during which light seemed to
be increasing--i. e. till mid-day ( Il.viii. 66 Il., ix. 84; Od.ix.
56). The second part was called meson êmar or mid-day, during which
the sun was thought to stand still (Hermias, ad Phaedr. p. 342). The
third part bore the name of deilê or deielon êmar ( Od.xvii. 606; cf.
Buttman's Lexilog. ii. n. 95), which derived its name from the
increased warmth of the atmosphere. The last part of the deilê was
sometimes designated by the words poti hespera or boulutos ( Od.xvii.
191; Il.xvi. 779).

The first and last of the divisions made at the time of Homer were
afterwards subdivided into two parts. The earlier part of the morning
was termed prôï or prôi tês hêmeras; the later--i. e. from 9 or 10
till noon--plêthousês tês agoras or peri plêthousan agoran. The meson
êmar of Homer was afterwards expressed by mesêmbria, meson hêmeras,
or mesê hêmera, and comprehended, as before, the middle of the day,
when the sun seemed neither to rise nor to decline. The two parts of
the afternoon were called deilê prôïê or prôïa, and deilê opsiê or
opsia. This division continued to be observed down to the latest
period of Grecian history, though another more accurate division, and
one more adapted to the purposes of common life, was introduced at an
early period; for Anaximander, or according to others, Anaximenes, is
said to have made the Greeks acquainted with the use of the
Babylonian chronometer or sundial (called polos or hôrologion,
sometimes with the epithet skiothêrikon or hêliamandron), by means of
which the natural day was divided into twelve equal spaces of time.
These spaces were, of course, longer or shorter according to the
various seasons of the year. The name hours (hôrai), however, did not
come into general use till a very late period, and the difference
between natural and equinoctial hours was first observed by the
Alexandrian astronomers. See Pollux, Onom.i. 68.

During the early ages of the history of Rome, the natural phenomena
of increasing light and darkness formed with the Romans, as with the
Greeks, the standard of division, as we see from the vague
expressions in Censorinus (De Die Nat. 24). In the Twelve Tables only
the rising and the setting of the sun and mid-day (meridies) were
mentioned as the parts into which the day was then divided. Varro (L.
L. vi. 4, 5) and Isidorus ( Orig.v. 30 and 31) likewise distinguished
three parts of the day--viz. mane, meridies, and suprema, sc.
tempestas, after which no assembly could be held in the Forum.

But the division of the day most generally observed by the Romans was
that into tempus antemeridianum and pomeridianum, the meridies itself
being considered only as a point at which the one [p. 512] ended and
the other commenced. As it was of importance that this moment should
be known, an officer (see Accensi) of the consuls was directed to
proclaim the time of mid-day, when from the Curia he saw the sun
standing between the Rostra and the Graecostasis. The division of the
day into twelve equal spaces, which, here as in Greece, were shorter
in winter than in summer, was adopted at the time when artificial
means of measuring time were introduced among the Romans from Greece.
This was about the year B.C. 293, when L. Papirius Cursor, before the
war with Pyrrhus, brought to Rome an instrument called solarium
horologium, or simply solarium (Plaut. ap. Gellium, iii. 3. 5; Plin.
H. N.vii. 212). In B.C. 263, M. Valerius Messala brought one which he
had taken at the capture of Catina; and although this was incorrect,
having been constructed for a place 4¡ farther south than Rome, it
was in use for 99 years before the error was discovered. In B.C. 164,
the censor Q. Marcius Philippus had a more exact sundial constructed;
but the time was still unknown in cloudy weather. Scipio Nasica,
therefore, erected in B.C. 159 a public clepsydra, which indicated
the hours of the night as well as of the day (Censor. c. 23). Before
the erection of a clepsydra it was customary for one of the
subordinate officers of the praetor to proclaim the third, sixth, and
ninth hours; which shows that the day was, like the night, divided
into four parts, each consisting of three hours. In daily life
numerous terms were in use to denote the different parts of the day,
mostly of a general and somewhat vague character. (Cf. Varr. L. L.
vi. 4-7; Servius on Aen.ii. 268; iii. 587; Orig.v. 31 Orig., 32.)
See, also, the article Horologium.

All the days of the year were, according to different points of view,
divided by the Romans into different classes. For the purpose of the
administration of justice and of holding assemblies of the people all
the days were divided into dies fasti, dies nefasti, and dies partly
fasti, partly nefasti.

1. Dies fasti, in the wider sense, were days on which legal and
political business could be lawfully transacted. They were divided
into:

(a) Dies fasti, in the narrower sense, marked with F in the
calendars. On these legal business could be conducted (Ovid, Fast.i.
48, fastus erit per quem lege licebit agi; Varr. L. L. vi 29, dies
fasti per quos praetoribus omnia verba sine piaculo licet fari). The
word is derived by the ancients from fari; but, although the root is
undoubtedly the same, the more immediate connection is with fas.

(b) Dies comitiales, days on which meetings of the people could
legally be held, and on which, if there was no meeting convened,
courts could be opened (Macrob. Saturn. i. 16).

These days are marked C in the calendar.

2. Dies nefasti were days on which no legal or political business
could be done (Varr. L. L. vi. 30). These are again divided into two
quite distinct classes:

(a) Dies nefasti or feriati, on which no business could be done
because the day was sacred to some festival. These are marked NP in
the calendars. This sign was commonly interpreted nefastus parte or
nefastus principio, and was explained to mean that the day was one
during the earlier part of which no business could be done. But
Mommsen (Chronol. p. 220; C. I. L. i. 366) showed that this view was
quite untenable, and explains the sign to be, like M' when used as an
abbreviation for Manius, a modification of the archaic M with five
strokes (MV).

(b) Dies religiosi or vitiosi, sometimes called atri, marked in the
calendars by R. These were unlucky days, which had been declared to
be such by a decree of the Senate in consequence of some disaster
which had taken place upon them. All the dies postriduani were
included under this head --i. e. the days after the Kalends, the
Nones, and the Ides--because these were believed to have been
especially unfortunate (Ovid, Fast.i. 59, 60). On these days it was
not only unlawful to transact any legal or political business, but it
was also unlucky to begin any affair of importance. Cf. Gell. iv.9.5.

3. Days partly fasti and partly not, including:

(a) Dies intercisi, marked in the calendars by EN, for endotercisi
(endo- being an archaic form of in, as in endoperator). On these days
a victim was sacrificed in the morning and the exta offered in the
evening. Between the sacrifice and the offering the day was fastus;
before the former and after the latter it was nefastus (Varr. L. L.
vi. 31; Ovid, Fast.i. 49).

(b) Dies fissi, three in number. To two of these, March 24 and May
24, are prefixed the letters Q. R. C. F.--i. e. quando rex (sacrorum)
comitiavit, fas. These days were, even in ancient times, confused
with the Regifugium--i. e. February 24-- and the letters were wrongly
interpreted quando rex comitio fugit. To the third, June 15, is
prefixed Q. ST. D. F.--i. e. quando stercus delatum fas; on this day
the temple of Vesta was solemnly cleansed by the Vestals, and the
filth carried away or thrown into the Tiber (Ovid, Fast.vi. 707), no
other business being permitted on this day.

Mommsen (C. I. L. i. p. 373) calculates that the year contained 45
dies fasti, 194 dies comitiales, 48 dies nefasti or feriati, 57 dies
religiosi, 8 dies intercisi, and 3 dies fissi.

Another division of the days of the year was of a purely religious
character, with which naturally the former division to a certain
extent coincided in a city so dominated by religious scruples as Rome:

1. Dies festi, on which the gods were honoured by (a) sacrificia, (b)
epulae, (c) ludi, (d) feriae. See Feriae.

2. Dies profesti, ordinary working-days.

3. Dies intercisi, of a mixed character.

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.

Salve,

The words of wonderful Tribune Apulus Caesar, I cannot agree more.

And I will add a Machiavelli comment. Perhaps not from the source,
but a reconstruction from what I have on memory.

´The Princes and Republics that starts to fall, do not complain about
the Fortune, but see that the fall started when they disobeyed their
own laws. There is nothing worse than disobeying your own laws´

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
> I have been quite silent during this days, on my window looking and
> reading the chaotic and uncivil and boring nova roman discussions.
> But now I would like to write a couple of sentences. I'll

appreciate

> if you'll read them. If you don't read them it's not important,
> they'll other words of your big role-game called NR.
>
> A civil and organized group of people works well only by civil

laws.

> All the organizations, from a little club to a big Nation, need
> civil laws. A system without rules is called Anarchy.
> Do you would like an anarchical Nova Roma? me not!
> I'm reading someone claiming we don't need laws ... why? are we a

so

> little group of people able to talk as civil as possible? able to
> organize our job without un-useful discussion? interested to work
> firstly? able to follow just one goal, the conservation of Rome?
> able to leave our personal political games and dreams?
> Not, we aren't this... we're an world organization composed by more
> than 1000 members, where we are able only to talk and talk and talk
> and talk and talk and talk and talk.... unuseful words and few
> actions ... little men following the personal political

frustrations

> and/or trying to transform this group in a macronational political
> ring and/or playing in a big role-game...
> What a sad scenario ....
>
> The problem are not the laws. You all did the laws, you all voted
> them, you all accepted them because you all know that we can't
> manage an organization without rules. The problem is not the laws,
> the problem are the citizens un-respecting them. You accepted this
> laws and maybe you supported them. Now, when this laws are not
> useful or not good for your interests, you refuse them. You don't
> like them, change them ... and not claiming rights, scandals,
> abuses ... not resigning your Office, this is not Roman!
>
> What you're following? What is your goal? what do you think about

NR?

> I think NR is a great organization and you know that if we would
> grow as weel as possible, we have to develop a structure based on
> strong laws uniting the people and not dividing them.
>
> ROMA WAS GREAT AND POWERFUL BECAUSE IT WAS A SOCIETY OF LAWS!!!!
> The Romans weren't barbarians unable to have a sustem of civil

laws,

> a complex and detailed codex of rules. The Romans knew (and before
> the greeks) that an organization without civil laws was barbarian,
> anarchical, weak...
> And now, the higher magistrates of our little Res Publica and the
> men calling "traditionalists" refused the laws and a system based

on

> a detailed codex of rules? Do you know that you're refusing the
> Tradition? that you're refusing the aim of the roman society?
>
> DURA LEX, SED LEX ... claiming the real and ancient Romans!!!
> ALL ARE EQUAL IN FRONT OF THE LAW ... claiming the Courts of all

the

> modern Nations!!!
> What is this for us? This are only stupid sentences useful when the
> laws are good for our personal interests? We all are equal in front
> of our laws, noboby is better than another citizen, no magistrate

is

> better than a new citizen. You're acting like the old fascist
> governments or maybe the actual italian: the friends of the boss

are

> immune by sentences, the laws favor the interests of a little group
> of people and when this laws are not useful or not good for the
> personal goals and interests, they are removed ....
>
> And reading the previous message of the last week-end I read,
> between un-useful resignations and offenses by and against lawyers,
> modern political manifestos very similar to a modern Nation than

the

> Ancient Rome. I read traditionalists claiming their party following
> teh Tradition, but where is the Tradition? I'm sure that some of

you

> works as well as possible and I consider some of you great friends.
> But you know that others of you are only following the own personal
> macronational political goals. You lost the elections of the last
> two years, you committed a long list of errors attacking and being
> rude and arrogant ... now you're trying to restore your image.
> And the Digni or Populares or "friends of Caeso" or what is your
> name... where are you? Where are you when our Res Publica is
> crossing a string chrisis? What you're doing to restore
> your "dignitas" gunned by resigning officers and a boring political
> main mailing list? I'm one of you and I'm boring of you too...
>
> However...
> The next month in my city there will the local elections. There are
> 1.050 candidates for 45 places in the Municipal Chamber. Everybody
> is trying to take votes and everyone talk about the future of my
> city. There are more parties than citizens...
> And There will the provincial and the european elections ...
> If I would talk about macronational political affairs or play to be
> a politic managing citizens, I'ld be a candidate in my city ...
> Well, would like an organization like a modern Nation within a
> bipolarist structure and political parties?
> Well. I'll accept it, I'll create my party ... the "Api" ...
> from "friends of Apulus" and from the italian words
> meaning "bees" ... the bees works and works and works saying no
> words and defending his job and creating the honey for a queen, a
> queen called NR.
>
> This is what I'm doing in NR now ... no words, only jobs ... the
> time and the citizens in the future will see what unusefel are your
> words and what mean the job now.
>
> I don't know anything more ... I don't know where is the Nova Roma

I

> met 4 years ago. Where are the goals followed when I won the
> quaestorship?
> Soneone calling for a Dictator fearing the fall of NR ... let NR
> fall, let this little men destroy themself and this organization,
> let the people resign the own office, let the old and best
> magistrates be tired and bored ... teh arabian phenix will rise
> again from the ruins!!!
>
> Now please, attack me for this crazy words, present petition,
> critice my stupid sentences, write other words and other words and
> other words ... a mountain of words...
> I'll ignore them, my interest now is to see what you all are able

to

> do for NR and his groth.
> I'll come back to my daily job for NR and my Provincia continuing

to

> work without words ...
> Thank you for your attenction and sorry for my english.
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar

Salve Fabia Vera,

Last year before you were a citizen, I posted on this main list complaining in the same way to the
attn of the Praetores. I was reminded by Praetor Salix Astur that a post to the mainlist was not
an official petition. That said, if the Praetores or whomever is acting on their behalf (in this
case Marinus & Postumius) think that you should be on moderation or off moderation, then they can
do so with or without a complaint or a retraction of one, whether either one is official or
otherwise.

>Now again in the spirit of Concordia I ask you to withdraw your
>complaint as you are on record against them and since there has been
>a ton of unpunished libelling & cursing : it is just, fair and
>equitable for only me to be punished for a joke?

You can't invoke Concordia only when it works to your benefit while ignoring Concordia in your
treatment of others.

Unless I missed something (and it is entirely possible) Marinus asked you to apologize to Scaurus
for suggesting that he be a ritual sacrifice, but you firmly refused. ut hey, I'm a lot nicer than
you think I am, so if you apologize to Scaurus then I will be the first person to write to the
Praetores to say that you should be taken off moderation. Deal?

Vale,
Diana Octavia

Salvete Aule Apolloni et Omnes,

First, let me thank you for making a reasoned and well argued
contribution to this thread. There are some parts to it I would like
to comment on.

> I think the Boni have done themselves no favours by
> keeping their membership partly open and partly
> secret. For one thing, secrecy of any form invites
> suspicion, and it is perfectly natural for outsiders
> to assume that a group which wants to hide its
> members' identities may be up to something, or,
> equally, that a group whose members do not wish their
> identities to be known must be one to be a member of
> which is a source of shame or embarrassment. Whether
> any of these things are he case, have no idea, but I
> think the Boni must realise that this is the
> impression they have given by declining to disclose
> their identities in full.

I agree. And I think that there is a growing realisation amongst boni
members that this is the case as well. To be honest, I think the
policy, for want of a better word, arose from good intentions,
respect for the privacy of ones colleagues. However, it has exposed
the boni to accusations of being overly secretive, and all the
negative connotations that come with it.

> Moreover, the fact that a few Boni have been
> consistently open about their memberhsip of that group
> has led others, quite reasonably, to assume that their
> political views and their style of self-expression
> were representative of the group as a whole.

This is, as I hope people are beginning to realise, a fallacy. Every
member of the boni acts on his or her own initiative. There is no
grand plan or design. There is no policy document. There is certainly
no leading light guiding the minions on what to say or do.

> For myself, I may say that the news that my
> compatriot Iunius Silanus is a member (if indeed that
> is true,....

It is.

> .... for he has not said so in quite so many
> words)....

I have now :-)

> ..... has done considerably more to raise my
> estimation of the Boni than to lower my estimation of
> him.

Thank you.

I have never, you are correct, declared outright on this list that I
have been a member of the boni. However, it has never been my policy
to hide it either. I am many things. I do not feel the need to stand
before everyone and declare them all. However, if asked, and asked
directly, I would never deny it.

> This probably arises from the belief that the Boni are
> highly organised and united. Whether this is true, I
> don't know; I find it more unlikely the more I hear
> about them.

We are united in that we share a similar vision for Nova Roma.
Further, these people are my friends with whom I can let off a little
steam now and then. They are not my only friends of course, I have
many others, some of them self-confessed 'modernists'. This is no
problem for me, in fact I count it as a blessing. Only good can come
from cross-factional communication, especially if it is of a cordial
nature.

Above and beyond that, you are correct. There is no highly organised
political structure, sitting in the wings with a manifesto ready to
take the reins of government.

> But they themselves have done very little
> to dispel this view, and the existence of a dedicated
> e-mail list does tend to suggest, in the absence of
> any other explanation for its existence, some level of
> strategic coordination.

It is a list to share political ideas and discuss trends within Nova
Roma with like minded people. No more. Conversation there can be
rather frank, and why not, that is only healthy. A proviso of
membership is to respect the privacy of it members. It is up to
individuals concerned to discuss their own politics. Also, if at all
possible, we try not to criticise each other in public. This is more
in the form of good manners than any desire to strenghten 'party'
unity. I'm not entirely convinced that it has always been adhered to
in any case.

> It is interesting to notice that we're hearing now
> several people saying that they were encouraged to
> join the Boni, or consider them in a more sympathetic
> light, by the paranoia of those who go too far in
> opposing the Boni in principle. To depict the Boni as
> a subversive force with a secret plan to destroy
> everyone but themselves is, I suspect, to give them
> far more credit and to make them sound far more
> exciting than they are;

You are correct again. Certainly there is no secret plan. To assert
such is just scaremongering, a form of factional politics that I find
distasteful.

> If I may be permitted to give some advice to those who
> are members of the Boni or of any similar group of
> alliance, it is this: be as open as possible about
> your group, what it does, and what it is, or you will
> have only yourself to blame when you find yourself
> implicated in conspiracy theories;

I shall not comment on the above. I merely leave it in place because
it makes good reading. There is something for us all to learn here.

> more than this,
> recognise that if you belong to such a group and run
> for election without declaring your membership, you
> are deceiving the voting public;

As I'm sure you remember, I myself ran for Praetor in the autumn. I
was unsuccessful, partly perhaps because of a suspected affiliation
to the boni, who knows. However, I did not hide my politics. People
knew, if they had read my posts during the election, what I believed
in and what I stood for. I consider my platform to have been
transparent. Neither did I hide from my friends, on either side of
the political spectrum. And as I have already stated, if anyone had
asked directly about my affiliations, they would have received an
honest answer. I think the fact that nobody did, supports my argument
that voters knew where I stood.

> and finally, consider
> that the greatest service your group can do to Nova
> Roma is to disband entirely. We are not such a huge
> community that names on ballot-papers are meaningless
> without an explanatory party label,

Given my descriptions above, and my assertion that the boni isn't a
structured political 'party', I hope in some small measure to give
you some pause to reconsider your above statement.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus

Salve G. Equitius Cato,

> I just wanted to state, for the record, that I am
> NOT a Boni.

And your point is?

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus





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G. Equitius Cato D. Iunio Silano S.D.

Salve, Iunius,

It was a feeble attempt at humor. I was stating the absurdly
obvious. As a joke. Ha ha ha.

I'll try not to do it again.

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
<iuniussilanus@y...> wrote:

> Salve G. Equitius Cato,
>
> > I just wanted to state, for the record, that I am
> > NOT a Boni.
>
> And your point is?
>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

SALVETE OMNES

In these hard days for our Republic, I've been thinking of my
involvement in Nova Roma, as well as all of you, I guess.
So I thought of all my engagements I had till now, both inside
Provincia Italia and our State. And I thought of all the ideas I got
for the purpose to grow Nova Roma better and better.

As I'm a candidate for the Quaestorship, I'm sure you have to know
that I had no doubts about my belief, that Nova Roma has to follow a
long way to grow up and improve.

My decision to candidate for the quaestorhip, the first step in our
Cursus Honorum, was indeed corroborated by these thoughts in these
times, as I want to try to apply all my abilities for such a purpose.

A long way, as I said, and I hope -I'm sure- that we'll win this
struggle. With the contribution of all of us, the so called Boni and
Populares, as anyone of us can give something to this project.
My hope is for a new Concordia Ordinum, luckily better than Cicero's
one.

Finally, I want to say that G Iul Scaurus' Return has to became the
pattern to follow for all those that decided to leave Nova Roma, or
that are deciding to take that step. We are all happy he's here once
again.

Here follows my brief Curriculum Vitae inside Nova Roma:

I have followed the courses of our local Academia, initially directed
by Ill. Manius Constantinus Serapio, then becoming his own director
(Rector).
I have been called in our provincial governemnt (Curia Italica) by
our Propraetor Serapio, being appointed as an apparitor (Scriba).
I'm directing for Nova Roma our project "Interview the Expert"
("Chiedilo all'Esperto" in Italy).
I belong to the cohors consularis of our Senior Consul Gnaeus Salix
Astur.
I am involved in our project of restoring the Sanctuary of Magna
Mater and in its relative found raising.


BENE VALETE!
L IUL SULLA

Salve,

> I'll try not to do it again.

Thanks. That would be appreciated.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus







____________________________________________________________
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Salvete Omnes,

Some of the speculation about the Boni is rather amusing, but I
thought I'd clear up a few misconceptions about just what "evil plots"
we are working on.

The Boni is a group of friends who share some concerns about the
direction that Nova Roma is headed. That is all we are. We don't agree
on evrything. We don't have any blood oaths to support each other,
though we do tend to agree on what and whom to support to a degree, as
is natural for friends who share some common concerns. We don't have a
leader, a Privitus has as much say as a Consular Senator. We don't
have any spokesmen for the group, we speak for ourselves when we
choose to comment on something.

The Boni list isn't a place to discuss dark plots, we joke about
events in Nova Roma and exchange personal news more often than we
discuss politics, again something that is natural among a group of
friends. It's more like a closed Back Alley list than anything else.
If we were really concerned about the existance of the Boni list being
a big secrect we would have chosen a name that has nothing to do with
Roma or Nova Roma and been lost among all the assorted Yahoo groups lists.

L. Sicinius Drusus

A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend the Tribune L.
Arminius Faustus, and to all his fellow-citizens and
all peregrines, greetings.

Thank you for this, and your other postings in the
series. I wonder whether you, or anyone else, can
answer a question about this:

> (b) Dies religiosi or vitiosi, sometimes called
> atri, marked in the
> calendars by R. These were unlucky days, which had
> been declared to
> be such by a decree of the Senate in consequence of
> some disaster
> which had taken place upon them.

Are these the same as what are nowadays called dies
nefasti publici?

And while we're on the subject, can I mention again
that it would be wonderful for the dies fasti,
nefasti, &c. to be marked with coloured stripes on the
calendar on the NR website as they used to be? I know
we're currently a webmaster short, but could his
scribes perhaps liaise with the pontifical college to
get this done? Thanks in advance.





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G.Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

salvete omnes,

Ummm....I'm not sure if Iunius is kidding or not. If he is, woohoo!
If he's not, then holy Hannah, Batman! Let's lighten up a little. I
believe that even the ancient Romans laughed. Quietly, of course,
but still...


valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
<iuniussilanus@y...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> > I'll try not to do it again.
>
> Thanks. That would be appreciated.
>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

Just Kidding. So woohoo to you too!

Vale.

Silanus.

salvete omnes,

Ummm....I'm not sure if Iunius is kidding or not. If
he is, woohoo!
If he's not, then holy Hannah, Batman! Let's lighten
up a little. I
believe that even the ancient Romans laughed.
Quietly, of course,
but still...


valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius
Silanus
<iuniussilanus@y...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> > I'll try not to do it again.
>
> Thanks. That would be appreciated.
>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________

> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:

> there is
> > effectively no way to trace such email beyond the anonymiser site
> and
> > since the sites are abroad,
>
> Salve Scaure;
> now since you say the notes are from an anonymiser site abroad
> there is the implication that someone from abroad is sending them
>to you.

He implied no such thing. The location of these sites mean nothing,
they can be accessed from anywhere.

> So I hope you and the Main List see that our reputations are
> spotless in this matter.

Guilty conscience, Vera? No one brought your name into it, even by
implication.

Vale,

Palladius

*Cato breathes a sigh of relief*


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
<iuniussilanus@y...> wrote:

> Just Kidding. So woohoo to you too!
>
> Vale.
>
> Silanus.
>
> salvete omnes,
>
> Ummm....I'm not sure if Iunius is kidding or not. If
> he is, woohoo!
> If he's not, then holy Hannah, Batman! Let's lighten
> up a little. I
> believe that even the ancient Romans laughed.
> Quietly, of course,
> but still...
>
>
> valete,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius
> Silanus
> <iuniussilanus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > > I'll try not to do it again.
> >
> > Thanks. That would be appreciated.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Decimus Iunius Silanus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> > your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

On these Comitia times, a prayer to the patroness of the Plebs.





The Orphic Hymn to Ceres/Demeter

O Universal mother, Ceres fam'd
August, the source of wealth, and various nam'd:
Great nurse, all-bounteous, blessed and divine,
Who joy'st in peace, to nourish corn is thine:
Goddess of seed, of fruits abundant, fair,
Harvest and threshing, are thy constant care;
Who dwell'st in Eleusina's seats retir'd,
Lovely, delightful queen, by all desir'd.
Nurse of all mortals, whose benignant mind,
First ploughing oxen to the yoke confin'd;
And gave to men, what nature's wants require,
With plenteous means of bliss which all desire.
In verdure flourishing in honor bright,
Assessor of great Bacchus, bearing light:
Rejoicing in the reapers sickles, kind,
Whose nature lucid, earthly, pure, we find.
Prolific, venerable, Nurse divine,
Thy daughter loving, holy Proserpine:
A car with dragons yok'd, 'tis thine to guide,
And orgies singing round thy throne to ride:
Only-begotten, much-producing queen,
All flowers are thine and fruits of lovely green.
Bright Goddess, come, with Summer's rich increase
Swelling and pregnant, leading smiling Peace;
Come, with fair Concord and imperial Health,
And join with these a needful store of wealth




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail. Clique aqui!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites,

In the lovely article discussing dies posted earlier today by Tribune
Faustus, there's a discussion of sundials and how they were calibrated.
As an astronomer, sundials are dear to me, and I thought some of you
might be interested in more information about the history, development,
and use of sundials for timekeeping.

So, several useful links for anyone who's interested:

First, the Encyclopaedia Britannica article online discussing sundials
is "Sundial." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004. Encyclopædia Britannica
Premium Service. 25 May 2004
<http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=72195>.

If that doesn't satisfy your interest, there's the wonderful "Sundials
on the Internet" website, covering all things sundial, from history to
the equations of time to the practicalities of making and aligning your
own sundials: <http://www.sundials.co.uk/>.

There's also a nice page full of lesson plans and ideas for teachers,
home-schoolers, and anyone else interested in some sundial related
activities (Tiberius, you might want to grab these for your summer
camp!) <http://www.fi.edu/time/Journey/Sundials/lessons.htm>.

Enjoy!

Valete,

-- Marinus

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

Along with my colleague A. Apollonius Cordus, I would like to remind
everyone of the current election taking place in the Comitia Populia
Tributa and Plebis Tributa. The following is the time line for the voting:

25 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
26 Mai (dies comitialis)
27 Mai (dies comitialis)
28 Mai (dies comitialis)
29 Mai (dies comitialis)
30 Mai (dies comitialis)
31 Mai (dies comitialis) Voting ends 18:00 Roma time

Please exercise your right to be heard, and get out and vote! For new
citizens: votes are cast in the Cista
(http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/). To vote you will need
your current voter code. To obtain your current voter code, go to your
page in the Album Civium, and click on the "Get Voter Code" button. The
code will be e-mailed to the address you have submited to the Censors.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Rogator

Salve,

Well, atri comes from atrox, right? Cruel? Well, Alia´s Day (19th
July) was a atri deafeat. I know this is nefastus publicus. My answer
would be that 99% of chance that atri, vitiosi, nefasti would be the
same.

On other way, nefastus has ´bad meaning´. However, the religiosi for
legal purposes has the same effect of atri, a religiosi and atri
would be nefasti anyway. At least I would glad suspend the Comitia
for the feast of Iove Optimus Maximus than to remember the sack of
Rome.

So, religiosi is nefasti as well, I supose.

We could put a php3/ASP routine, if necessary, 360 ifs that
automatically put on NR site the caracteristics of the day:

For example

If day = 25th May then ´Dies Comitialis´
If day = 19th July then ´ALIA´S DAY - Nefastus Publicus - The Eve of
the sack of Rome´

Because on NR site we already have the variable of day and time of
the server.

For all days these if clauses.

I would dare more:

If day = Day Comitia Centurita then img src="vexilia.jpg" because on
Rome they put a vexilia on the top of the Ianiculus to call people.
So a small banner of a vexilia would appear on NR site.

I would dare more:

If view citizen magistrature = censor or consul or curule aedile or
praetor then background=´toga praetexta.jpg´ and on View citizen we
would see the image of the purple strip of the toga of the curule
magistrates on background.

However, besides the ´notion´ of programming, I cannot write the
correct syntax. My programming skils remained on old and good Basic...


Vale,
L. Arminius Fautus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend the Tribune L.
> Arminius Faustus, and to all his fellow-citizens and
> all peregrines, greetings.
>
> Thank you for this, and your other postings in the
> series. I wonder whether you, or anyone else, can
> answer a question about this:
> > (b) Dies religiosi or vitiosi, sometimes called
> > atri, marked in the
> > calendars by R. These were unlucky days, which had
> > been declared to
> > be such by a decree of the Senate in consequence of
> > some disaster
> > which had taken place upon them.
>
> Are these the same as what are nowadays called dies
> nefasti publici?
>
> And while we're on the subject, can I mention again
> that it would be wonderful for the dies fasti,
> nefasti, &c. to be marked with coloured stripes on the
> calendar on the NR website as they used to be? I know
> we're currently a webmaster short, but could his
> scribes perhaps liaise with the pontifical college to
> get this done? Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

>
> Guilty conscience, Vera? No one brought your name into it, even by
> implication.
>
> Vale,
>
> Palladius

See Palladius, there you have made an innuendo, just like
what I spoke about.
My conscience and reputation is as the driven snow.
I have never libelled, cursed or threatened anyone on this list. I
do not need to bully or boast that I was here from day 1 to
intimidate new cives.
I only use logic to bolster my arguments. The sly innuendo,
intimation to besmirch someone's opinion or reputation is beneath me.
vale bene
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

Salve Diana;
FABIA V: Why did you not tell me this before when I asked? It is much
better to be clear and above board in our dealings.

.DIANA: I was reminded by Praetor Salix Astur that a post to the
mainlist was not

> an official petition.
> otherwise.
>
> >
> DIANA: Unless I missed something (and it is entirely possible)

Marinus asked you to apologize to Scaurus

> for suggesting that he be a ritual sacrifice,
>

FABIA V: No, the Consul asked me to apologize to the Main List for my
joke. My attitude is that the public is mature enough to handle a
joke, if they can deal with all the other debris that landed, they
can handle humour.
I'll take my punishment and finish out my 33 days on principle.

bene vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:

>
> >
> > Guilty conscience, Vera? No one brought your name into it, even

by

> > implication.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Palladius
>
> See Palladius, there you have made an innuendo, just like
> what I spoke about.

It would never have occured to anyone to mention it if you had not in
a moment of paranoia called attention to yourself first.

> My conscience and reputation is as the driven snow.

You can only speak to your conscience, your reputation is how others
perceive you.

> I have never libelled, cursed or threatened anyone on this list.

But you do behave rudely and insultingly on a fairly regular basis.
You deliberately walk the razor's edge of the list rules.

>I
> do not need to bully or boast that I was here from day 1 to
> intimidate new cives.

Not to worry Vera, you always manage to find other unpleasant means
to
do that.

Vale,

Palladius



-----------------
---------------------
--------------

Ex Officio Censoris Iunioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

Edictum Censoris CFQ X about the disappearence of Praetor and Senator
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus.

I have contacted Praetor and Senator Gnaeus Octavius Noricus'
University, his home phone, his mobile and his parents phone. I have
mailed him and sent letters to him. Some of these contacts were taken
through my delegated representatives.

The information I have got have convinced me that Praetor and Senator
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus is alive, but not available. I don't know
much more. I haven't been able to get much information, but from the
little I have I am sadly enough convinced that he isn't prepared or
able to have any contact with us, at least for now!

I. I have tried and failed to find or contact Praetor and Senator
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus.

II. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given the 25th of May, in the year of the Consulship of Gnaeus Astur
and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, 2757 AUC.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

>
> >I
> > do not need to bully or boast that I was here from day 1 to
> > intimidate new cives.
>
> Not to worry Vera, you always manage to find other unpleasant means
> to
> do that.
>
> Vale,
>
> Palladius
>

Salve Palladi;
sorry I'm not going to engage in this nonproductive conversation ;
I'm going to talk with Phillipus Flavius , a fine Latinist, about
Latin poetry, perhaps even be inspired to write some more carmen to
the gods.

vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:

> >
> > >I
> > > do not need to bully or boast that I was here from day 1 to
> > > intimidate new cives.
> >
> > Not to worry Vera, you always manage to find other unpleasant

means

> > to
> > do that.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Palladius
> >
> Salve Palladi;
> sorry I'm not going to engage in this nonproductive conversation
>I'm going to talk with Phillipus Flavius , a fine Latinist, about
>Latin poetry, perhaps even be inspired to write some more carmen to
>the gods.

Don't apologize, it's probably for the best. I'm sure we were
starting
to bore the populace, not to mention each other. I hope your poetic
muse speaks to you.

Vale,

Palladius

-----------
---------------
----------

Philippus Flavius Conservatus Maior omnibus salutem dicit.

Before I start to write down my thoughts about the unproductive time we lost Seneca wrote the best about this. So here it is:

Ita fac, mi Lucili: vindica te tibi et tempus, quod adhuc aut auferebatur aut subripiebatur aut
excidebat, collige et serva! Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis,
quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit.
Et, si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus...

Omnia, Lucili, aliena sunt. Tempus tantum nostrum est.

[Seneca, epistulae morales ad Lucilium 1]



Valete
Ph.Flavius Conservatus Maior
_______________________________________________________________________
Moechten Sie Ihre SMS noch ausdrucksstaerker und emotionaler gestalten?
Fuegen Sie einfach ein Bild hinzu! http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021194

Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit

Let me comment, if I may, on some of your points.

Regarding Taxes. I think taxing citizens is perfectly acceptable, and I think $1 per month is very little. I would welcome an increase, especially if we need to start paying to keep the website updated and to pay for programming (getting someone to keep our database updated might eventually cost Nova Roma money).

Regarding "Religio bashing." You state, "so if we turn NR a unwelcome place to christians, we will lost our most valuable citizens." I don't know if I would consider our Christian citizens our "most valuable citizens." A citizen is a citizen. Attacking and belitting anyone's religion is in poor taste. However, by placing the Religio Romana is a place of primacy is not only constitutional it is also Roman. Additionally, wanting to protect the position of the Religio Romana within Nova Roma is not bashing another religion, but protecting the Relgio Romana. I'm not insinuating that you are advocating for a lessoning of the Religio Romana, just pointing out a. the primacy of the Religio and b. the need to advocate for the primacy of the Religio.

Regarding Domestic Religio. Personally I have a lararium, a whole room of my house in fact. I make devotions to the Gods for both Nova Roma and as Pater Familias of Gens Modia for those who of clan Modia.

Regarding political parties. I am not sure which "political party" you are refering to but it seems that the only organized and "outed" political party is the Boni. Are you insinuating that the Boni try to get people to leave Nova Roma intentionally? Which Boni would you consider the "Shock Troopers?"

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius


In a message dated 5/25/2004 9:51:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lafaustus@... writes:

> III - Taxes - we do not need so much money. And people are not
> desiring to send their money to a few known organization.
>
> IV - Religio bashing - Specially against the Christians. We do not
> have much pagans on the middle of the world to join NR, so if we turn
> NR a unwelcome place to christians, we will lost our most valuable
> citizens.
>
> V - Lack of Domestic Religio - We say too much about the gods, we
> worship too little. How many really have a lararium on Home? How many
> make the right worship, the roman orthopraxis? If I would be Iove,
> I´d be very angry with much ´mounth/email only´ worship.
>
> VI - Political parties, who uses public ashaming and ´shock-troops´
> on Main List to bash citizens until their resignation. Perhaps if
> they turn NR into a nicer place, people would renounce
> little less.

Ave Phillipe Flavi;
I believe even with my tiny dictionary the sense is that we should
preserve what we can as time is always fleeing, robbing us. Is this
sentence the gist:,
ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis,

>

I can't quite parse it. is the verb 'eripio'? some help Flavi
erudite, would be appreciated;)

>
> vale

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta

>

______________________________________________________________________
_

> Moechten Sie Ihre SMS noch ausdrucksstaerker und emotionaler

gestalten?

> Fuegen Sie einfach ein Bild hinzu! http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021194

Salve,

Magistrates introducing Leges have cost Nova Roma more citizens than
all other causes combined.

WE remain a small organization, despite the bogus numbers on the Web
Site we have no more than 200 to 300 members in any realistic sense of
the word. An organization that small dosen't need a complex system of
rules. All it accomplishes is angering people and chassing them away.

Nova Roma is not growing. We barely get enough new members to replace
the ones who leave out of anger and frustration, and the biggest cause
of that is the politics generated by the legal process.

Laws are doing far more damage to Nova Roma than any good that can
obtained by them. We have to limit Magistrate's ability to damage Nova
Roma by limiting their ability to promulgate new Leges or this
organization will remain a tiny group with no real future.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:

> VI - Political parties, who uses public ashaming and ´shock-troops´
> on Main List to bash citizens until their resignation. Perhaps if
> they turn NR into a nicer place, people would renounce little less.
>

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I made some unfortunate remarks by accident to the ML as I was in the
process of resigning. I thought I was sending them as a private mail.
I apologise for any offence given.

Valete.

Scaurus

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio L. Arminio Fausto quiritibusque
S.P.D.

salvete omnes,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit
>
> Let me comment, if I may, on some of your points.
>
> Regarding Taxes. I think taxing citizens is perfectly acceptable,
and I think $1 per month is very little. I would welcome an
increase, especially if we need to start paying to keep the website
updated and to pay for programming (getting someone to keep our
database updated might eventually cost Nova Roma money).
>
> Regarding "Religio bashing." You state, "so if we turn NR a
unwelcome place to christians, we will lost our most valuable
citizens." I don't know if I would consider our Christian citizens
our "most valuable citizens." A citizen is a citizen. Attacking and
belitting anyone's religion is in poor taste. However, by placing
the Religio Romana is a place of primacy is not only constitutional
it is also Roman. Additionally, wanting to protect the position of
the Religio Romana within Nova Roma is not bashing another religion,
but protecting the Relgio Romana. I'm not insinuating that you are
advocating for a lessoning of the Religio Romana, just pointing out
a. the primacy of the Religio and b. the need to advocate for the
primacy of the Religio.
>


CATO: Athanasius and Arminius, I agree with both of you regarding
taxes. Perhaps a plan could be devised whereby a citizen could
earmark a larger amount if he/she desired to do so? Not as a simple
donation but specifically as taxes? We could then "compete" not only
with words but with cold hard cash. Also a very Roman idea. Is the
Centum Group still operating?

Regarding the "value" of a citizen, Athanasius, I think you've hit
the nail on the head: a citizen is a citizen. Christian or Pagan,
makes no difference. Nobody is "worth" any more than anybody
else. I do question the need to "advocate for the primacy of the
Religio", though; the Constitution makes the religio's position one
of primacy (as far as being the State religion, at least) pretty
clear, and, all fears expressed to the contrary, I don't remember
anyone voicing the idea that the religio should *not* hold its
position in the State. One possible amendment I was thinking of to
the Constitution that might give the religio an even stronger
foundation might be to change the dates within which NR is operating
from 397 C.E. (when the Altar of Victory was removed from the Senate)
to 331 C.E. (when Constantine I "the Great" declared Christianity the
State religion, and started closing down the pagan temples). A small
but significant change. Religiously, NR seems in fact to be
operating in the timeframe of the Edict of Milan (313 C.E.), in which
the co-Emperors Licinius and Constantine declared that they

"grant to Christians and to all others the right freely to follow
whatever form of worship they please, that whatsoever Divinity dwells
in heaven may be favourable to us and to those under our authority."
(trans. Norwich, History of Byzantium vol. I)

the only major difference being that NR requires that the outward
appearance of the observance of the religio is required of all
magistrates, as is only correct in keeping with the Republic.

valete,

Cato

Salve G. Equitius Cato


"Is the Centum Group still operating?"

Yes and we need 8 more for the second ten.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:38 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Comitia, Laws and Liberty


G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio L. Arminio Fausto quiritibusque
S.P.D.

salvete omnes,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit
>
> Let me comment, if I may, on some of your points.
>
> Regarding Taxes. I think taxing citizens is perfectly acceptable,
and I think $1 per month is very little. I would welcome an
increase, especially if we need to start paying to keep the website
updated and to pay for programming (getting someone to keep our
database updated might eventually cost Nova Roma money).
>
> Regarding "Religio bashing." You state, "so if we turn NR a
unwelcome place to christians, we will lost our most valuable
citizens." I don't know if I would consider our Christian citizens
our "most valuable citizens." A citizen is a citizen. Attacking and
belitting anyone's religion is in poor taste. However, by placing
the Religio Romana is a place of primacy is not only constitutional
it is also Roman. Additionally, wanting to protect the position of
the Religio Romana within Nova Roma is not bashing another religion,
but protecting the Relgio Romana. I'm not insinuating that you are
advocating for a lessoning of the Religio Romana, just pointing out
a. the primacy of the Religio and b. the need to advocate for the
primacy of the Religio.
>


CATO: Athanasius and Arminius, I agree with both of you regarding
taxes. Perhaps a plan could be devised whereby a citizen could
earmark a larger amount if he/she desired to do so? Not as a simple
donation but specifically as taxes? We could then "compete" not only
with words but with cold hard cash. Also a very Roman idea. Is the
Centum Group still operating?

Regarding the "value" of a citizen, Athanasius, I think you've hit
the nail on the head: a citizen is a citizen. Christian or Pagan,
makes no difference. Nobody is "worth" any more than anybody
else. I do question the need to "advocate for the primacy of the
Religio", though; the Constitution makes the religio's position one
of primacy (as far as being the State religion, at least) pretty
clear, and, all fears expressed to the contrary, I don't remember
anyone voicing the idea that the religio should *not* hold its
position in the State. One possible amendment I was thinking of to
the Constitution that might give the religio an even stronger
foundation might be to change the dates within which NR is operating
from 397 C.E. (when the Altar of Victory was removed from the Senate)
to 331 C.E. (when Constantine I "the Great" declared Christianity the
State religion, and started closing down the pagan temples). A small
but significant change. Religiously, NR seems in fact to be
operating in the timeframe of the Edict of Milan (313 C.E.), in which
the co-Emperors Licinius and Constantine declared that they

"grant to Christians and to all others the right freely to follow
whatever form of worship they please, that whatsoever Divinity dwells
in heaven may be favourable to us and to those under our authority."
(trans. Norwich, History of Byzantium vol. I)

the only major difference being that NR requires that the outward
appearance of the observance of the religio is required of all
magistrates, as is only correct in keeping with the Republic.

valete,

Cato





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve T. Galerius Paulinus,

If I'm remembering correctly, it's through PayPal with the notation
Centum Group, yes?

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve G. Equitius Cato
>
>
> "Is the Centum Group still operating?"
>
> Yes and we need 8 more for the second ten.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Gaius Modius Athanasius Equitio Cato salutem dicit

Regarding taxes... I had mentioned awhile ago the idea of people entering the Ordo Equester through donations. Say a one time donation of $100 or $200 or whatever to become an Equestrian. I seriously doubt if many of our equestrians have contributed that much to the treasury, why not open it up to citizens wanting to enter that Ordo. A few century points are but a token for the donation given, but its not about the money its about contribution.

Regarding your comments on the Religio I have two points to make:

a. what I mean by advocate for the primacy of the Religio I mean promote it when others seem to try to change its position.
b. I like your ideas about moving the date to 331 ce. Very reasonable... But there is something symbolic too about the removal of the altar of Victory.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/25/2004 10:38:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> CATO: Athanasius and Arminius, I agree with both of you regarding
> taxes. Perhaps a plan could be devised whereby a citizen could
> earmark a larger amount if he/she desired to do so? Not as a simple
> donation but specifically as taxes? We could then "compete" not only
> with words but with cold hard cash. Also a very Roman idea. Is the
> Centum Group still operating?
>
> Regarding the "value" of a citizen, Athanasius, I think you've hit
> the nail on the head: a citizen is a citizen. Christian or Pagan,
> makes no difference. Nobody is "worth" any more than anybody
> else. I do question the need to "advocate for the primacy of the
> Religio", though; the Constitution makes the religio's position one
> of primacy (as far as being the State religion, at least) pretty
> clear, and, all fears expressed to the contrary, I don't remember
> anyone voicing the idea that the religio should *not* hold its
> position in the State. One possible amendment I was thinking of to
> the Constitution that might give the religio an even stronger
> foundation might be to change the dates within which NR is operating
> from 397 C.E. (when the Altar of Victory was removed from the Senate)
> to 331 C.E. (when Constantine I "the Great" declared Christianity the
> State religion, and started closing down the pagan temples). A small
> but significant change. Religiously, NR seems in fact to be
> operating in the timeframe of the Edict of Milan (313 C.E.), in which
> the co-Emperors Licinius and Constantine declared that they
>
> "grant to Christians and to all others the right freely to follow
> whatever form of worship they please, that whatsoever Divinity dwells
> in heaven may be favourable to us and to those under our authority."
> (trans. Norwich, History of Byzantium vol. I)
>
> the only major difference being that NR requires that the outward
> appearance of the observance of the religio is required of all
> magistrates, as is only correct in keeping with the
> Republic.

Salve Cato

Yes you can or drop them a check

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Centum Group


Salve T. Galerius Paulinus,

If I'm remembering correctly, it's through PayPal with the notation
Centum Group, yes?

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve G. Equitius Cato
>
>
> "Is the Centum Group still operating?"
>
> Yes and we need 8 more for the second ten.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus






Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.D.

salve Athanasius,

Perhaps the Centrum Group could be linked to becoming a member of the
Ordo Equester? An incentive (if one other than pure generosity is
needed) perhaps. It would make sense as money was the key to
becoming an Equestrian in Rome at first.

Gotcha in re: the religio. That makes perfect sense. I was
considering that it might become..uhhh...sensitive *only* if there
was an attempt (legally) to change the status quo of the religio.

And yes, the actual physical act of removing the Altar of Nike does
have a certain...finality...to it. I put forth the second date only
because since Christianity was officially declared the State religion
within the timeframe NR uses, it could be confusing?

Something to ponder.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Equitio Cato salutem dicit
>
> Regarding taxes... I had mentioned awhile ago the idea of people
entering the Ordo Equester through donations. Say a one time
donation of $100 or $200 or whatever to become an Equestrian. I
seriously doubt if many of our equestrians have contributed that much
to the treasury, why not open it up to citizens wanting to enter that
Ordo. A few century points are but a token for the donation given,
but its not about the money its about contribution.
>
> Regarding your comments on the Religio I have two points to make:
>
> a. what I mean by advocate for the primacy of the Religio I mean
promote it when others seem to try to change its position.
> b. I like your ideas about moving the date to 331 ce. Very
reasonable... But there is something symbolic too about the removal
of the altar of Victory.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/25/2004 10:38:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> > CATO: Athanasius and Arminius, I agree with both of you
regarding
> > taxes. Perhaps a plan could be devised whereby a citizen could
> > earmark a larger amount if he/she desired to do so? Not as a
simple
> > donation but specifically as taxes? We could then "compete" not
only
> > with words but with cold hard cash. Also a very Roman idea. Is
the
> > Centum Group still operating?
> >
> > Regarding the "value" of a citizen, Athanasius, I think you've
hit
> > the nail on the head: a citizen is a citizen. Christian or
Pagan,
> > makes no difference. Nobody is "worth" any more than anybody
> > else. I do question the need to "advocate for the primacy of the
> > Religio", though; the Constitution makes the religio's position
one
> > of primacy (as far as being the State religion, at least) pretty
> > clear, and, all fears expressed to the contrary, I don't remember
> > anyone voicing the idea that the religio should *not* hold its
> > position in the State. One possible amendment I was thinking of
to
> > the Constitution that might give the religio an even stronger
> > foundation might be to change the dates within which NR is
operating
> > from 397 C.E. (when the Altar of Victory was removed from the
Senate)
> > to 331 C.E. (when Constantine I "the Great" declared Christianity
the
> > State religion, and started closing down the pagan temples). A
small
> > but significant change. Religiously, NR seems in fact to be
> > operating in the timeframe of the Edict of Milan (313 C.E.), in
which
> > the co-Emperors Licinius and Constantine declared that they
> >
> > "grant to Christians and to all others the right freely to follow
> > whatever form of worship they please, that whatsoever Divinity
dwells
> > in heaven may be favourable to us and to those under our
authority."
> > (trans. Norwich, History of Byzantium vol. I)
> >
> > the only major difference being that NR requires that the outward
> > appearance of the observance of the religio is required of all
> > magistrates, as is only correct in keeping with the
> > Republic.

Salve Gentlemen

I was just on the main web site and someone has already changed the dates to read 753-330.

I hope they were authorized to do so.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Comitia, Laws and Liberty


Gaius Modius Athanasius Equitio Cato salutem dicit

Regarding taxes... I had mentioned awhile ago the idea of people entering the Ordo Equester through donations. Say a one time donation of $100 or $200 or whatever to become an Equestrian. I seriously doubt if many of our equestrians have contributed that much to the treasury, why not open it up to citizens wanting to enter that Ordo. A few century points are but a token for the donation given, but its not about the money its about contribution.

Regarding your comments on the Religio I have two points to make:

a. what I mean by advocate for the primacy of the Religio I mean promote it when others seem to try to change its position.
b. I like your ideas about moving the date to 331 ce. Very reasonable... But there is something symbolic too about the removal of the altar of Victory.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/25/2004 10:38:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> CATO: Athanasius and Arminius, I agree with both of you regarding
> taxes. Perhaps a plan could be devised whereby a citizen could
> earmark a larger amount if he/she desired to do so? Not as a simple
> donation but specifically as taxes? We could then "compete" not only
> with words but with cold hard cash. Also a very Roman idea. Is the
> Centum Group still operating?
>
> Regarding the "value" of a citizen, Athanasius, I think you've hit
> the nail on the head: a citizen is a citizen. Christian or Pagan,
> makes no difference. Nobody is "worth" any more than anybody
> else. I do question the need to "advocate for the primacy of the
> Religio", though; the Constitution makes the religio's position one
> of primacy (as far as being the State religion, at least) pretty
> clear, and, all fears expressed to the contrary, I don't remember
> anyone voicing the idea that the religio should *not* hold its
> position in the State. One possible amendment I was thinking of to
> the Constitution that might give the religio an even stronger
> foundation might be to change the dates within which NR is operating
> from 397 C.E. (when the Altar of Victory was removed from the Senate)
> to 331 C.E. (when Constantine I "the Great" declared Christianity the
> State religion, and started closing down the pagan temples). A small
> but significant change. Religiously, NR seems in fact to be
> operating in the timeframe of the Edict of Milan (313 C.E.), in which
> the co-Emperors Licinius and Constantine declared that they
>
> "grant to Christians and to all others the right freely to follow
> whatever form of worship they please, that whatsoever Divinity dwells
> in heaven may be favourable to us and to those under our authority."
> (trans. Norwich, History of Byzantium vol. I)
>
> the only major difference being that NR requires that the outward
> appearance of the observance of the religio is required of all
> magistrates, as is only correct in keeping with the
> Republic.




Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:

> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.D.

> And yes, the actual physical act of removing the Altar of Nike does
> have a certain...finality...to it.

It does indeed and still resonates over the centuries, certainly with
me and many others. I agree with you there.

Just a minor note, I don't believe the Ara Victoriae was ever known
by the Greek name the altar of Nike.

>I put forth the second date only
> because since Christianity was officially declared the State
>religion within the timeframe NR uses, it could be confusing?
>
> Something to ponder.

The timeframe is indeed confusing, especially since in large part we
look to the Republican period for inspiration. We're trying to
encompass as much of pagan Rome as we can, though some have said the
time period is too broad.

Vale,

Palladius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Gentlemen

Salve Pauline,

>
> I was just on the main web site and someone has already changed the
>dates to read 753-330.

You're right. That date has been there for quite a few years, I'm not
sure when it was changed or by whom.

Vale,

Palladius

Salvete Omnes Nova Roma:

Here is a link; I think might be helpful in light of recent
communication we have had to deal with. This site, if you scroll to
the bottom of the page I present, has many links to different areas of
social communication online.

Http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

As mental and social health is under the patronage of Minerva, and
Ceres, the Matrona of Canada Orientalis, is heralded as nurse of
sorts, I do not wish to hear, and will duly ignore, any squawking
regarding the "un"Romanness of this post..further, I will pay no
attention to any attacks on my 'disrespect' of these members of the
Roman Pantheon.

P. Minucia Tiberia "RN"

Salve Romans

Just a reminder that I am keep a list for the SPQR ring that I posted to the web site.

Cost is $85.00 for size 11 sterling silver or $100.00 for other sizes.

For anybody who has not seen it there is a picture of it at the yahoo group site. The Silver ring with the SPQR.

As of now we have 19 citizens on the list and we need 100 to place the order.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem VII Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem VI Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

Salve,

I'd get on that list, but which ring is it. Sorry..can't find the
old post. There are 3 on there now.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

> Salve Romans
>
> Just a reminder that I am keep a list for the SPQR ring that I

posted to the web site.

>
> Cost is $85.00 for size 11 sterling silver or $100.00 for other

sizes.

>
> For anybody who has not seen it there is a picture of it at the

yahoo group site. The Silver ring with the SPQR.

>
> As of now we have 19 citizens on the list and we need 100 to place

the order.

>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

EDICTUM DE FERIA AMBARVALIA

Whereas the Constitution of Nova Roma empowers the Aediles Curules:
IV.A.4.a. To hold Imperium; and
IV.A.4.b To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to see to the conduct
of public games and other festivals and gatherings, to ensure order at
public religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public
facilities that the State should acquire, and to administer the law
(such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others),

Therefore, we, G. Iulius Scaurus, Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et
Pontifex, and M. Iulius Perusianus, Aedilis Curulis, decree and command:

I. The Ambarvalia shall be observed in accordance with mos maiorum on
ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May);

II. In accordance with the mos maiorum the utterance of words of
ill-omen are forbidden on the Ambarvalia;

III. No citizen shall utter words of ill-omen, including words of
harshness or disrepect to any other citizen, in any public venue of Nova
Roma from 0:00 hours Roman time to 24:00 hours Roman time on ante diem
IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May), the period of the Ambarvalia;

IV. The utterance of words of ill-omen on the Ambarvalia shall
constitute public disrespect for the Gods of Rome;

V. Any citizen who violates this edictum shall be cited before the
Collegium Pontificum by the Aediles Curules for invocation of the
Blasphemy Decretum, to wit, for violation of article III thereof: "No
Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public disrespect for the
Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the Religio
Romana no matter what their personal beliefs."

VI. This edictum does not constitute list moderation reserved to the
imperium of the praetores but rather facilitation of the conduct of a
public festival and to ensure order at a religious event.

VII. This edictum takes effect immediately.

Given on ante diem VII Kalendae Iunii in the consulship of Cn. Salix
Astur and Gn. Equitius Marinus.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

M. Iulius Perusianus
Aedilis Curulis

Salve,

I'm a little curious about this festival. What I can find in my
limited resources describes the ceremonies, private and public, but
doesn't mention enforcing niceness. It appears celebratory, of
course, which usually engenders nicer behavior. Just curious about a
reference I can look up for my own education.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> EDICTUM DE FERIA AMBARVALIA
>
<SNIP>
> II. In accordance with the mos maiorum the utterance of words of
> ill-omen are forbidden on the Ambarvalia;
>
> III. No citizen shall utter words of ill-omen, including words of
> harshness or disrepect to any other citizen, in any public venue
of Nova
> Roma from 0:00 hours Roman time to 24:00 hours Roman time on ante
diem
> IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May), the period of the Ambarvalia;
>
> IV. The utterance of words of ill-omen on the Ambarvalia shall
> constitute public disrespect for the Gods of Rome;
>
> V. Any citizen who violates this edictum shall be cited before
the
> Collegium Pontificum by the Aediles Curules for invocation of the
> Blasphemy Decretum, to wit, for violation of article III
thereof: "No
> Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public disrespect
for the
> Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the Religio
> Romana no matter what their personal beliefs."
>
> VI. This edictum does not constitute list moderation reserved to
the
> imperium of the praetores but rather facilitation of the conduct
of a
> public festival and to ensure order at a religious event.
>
<SNIP>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
> Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
>
> M. Iulius Perusianus
> Aedilis Curulis

G. Iulius Scaurus A. Octaviae Indagatrici salutem dicit.

Salve, A. Octavia.

> I'm a little curious about this festival. What I can find in my
>limited resources describes the ceremonies, private and public, but
>doesn't mention enforcing niceness. It appears celebratory, of
>course, which usually engenders nicer behavior. Just curious about a
>reference I can look up for my own education.
>

The prohibition on utterance of words of ill-omen is found in Tibullus
ii.1 and Maurus Servius Honoratus' commentary on Vergil's Georgicon (the
book is at the office and I am at home, so I shan't be able to give you
a precise reference on Honoratus until later today). It is not a
matter of niceness; it is a matter of not attracting the displeasure of
the Di Immortales by uttering words of ill-omen, including words which
may wish ill-omen on others. It is also a matter of maintaining the
atmosphere of conviviality in the festival indicated by the accounts in
Tibullus and Vergil. Vere indagatrix es, A. Octavia.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>

salve Athanasius,

> Are you insinuating that the Boni try to get people to leave Nova

Roma intentionally?

Sorrym I wouldn't create other unuseful discussions and I don't know
if this is what Faustus referred ...

but I have been strongly invited in public and private to leave Nova
Roma by some people calling now Boni and for several and often no-
sense reasons!

In the past this men had a very politically un-correct trying to
remove people and magistrate more than create a serious and
costructive opposition.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar

Salvete Omnes,
I'm very happy to know that the Centrum Group run well. This is a
very appreciable job and I give my congratulations to Tribunus
Paulinus and everyone sent money.

However ... I would like to know if the donators of the centrum
groups sent a donation to the most important nova roman live
archeological project, the Project of the Sanctuary of Magna Mater.

And if I inderstood the goal of teh Centrum Groups, I would ask if
the managers of the Group would give a little sum from the fund to
the MM Project.

Please, contact me privatly if you prefer.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar

Ph. Flavius Conservatus Maior Sp. Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit.


eripere, eripio, eripui, ereptus - to snatch from/away
subducere, subduco, subduxi, subductus - to deprive so. of sth. or to pull away
effluere, effluo, effluxi - to flow out, to issue in this case

>Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis,
>quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt.

And then Seneca is pointing out what is worse or more worse.


Vale
Ph.Flavius Conservatus Maior

Quicquid aetatis retro est, mors tenet.
[Seneca, epistulae morales ad Lucilium 1]

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Salve,

Contra negantem principia non disputatur - said Aristoteles, says
Faustus now.

I´ll give up the discussion. I have showed extensive argumentation,
but It seems to not convince you, no matter the logic. So, I prefer
win over by atitudes, not words.

"Magistrates introducing Leges have cost Nova Roma more citizens than
all other causes combined. "

Indeed? How you measured it? I´ve state qualitative causes, not
quantitatives.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Magistrates introducing Leges have cost Nova Roma more citizens than
> all other causes combined.
>
> WE remain a small organization, despite the bogus numbers on the Web
> Site we have no more than 200 to 300 members in any realistic sense

of

> the word. An organization that small dosen't need a complex system

of

> rules. All it accomplishes is angering people and chassing them

away.

>
> Nova Roma is not growing. We barely get enough new members to

replace

> the ones who leave out of anger and frustration, and the biggest

cause

> of that is the politics generated by the legal process.
>
> Laws are doing far more damage to Nova Roma than any good that can
> obtained by them. We have to limit Magistrate's ability to damage

Nova

> Roma by limiting their ability to promulgate new Leges or this
> organization will remain a tiny group with no real future.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
>
> > VI - Political parties, who uses public ashaming and ´shock-

troops´

> > on Main List to bash citizens until their resignation. Perhaps if
> > they turn NR into a nicer place, people would renounce little

less.

> >

Salve Hadrianus,

<Who ever you
<may be I denounce you as a scoundrel and a coward, a person utterly
<lacking in honor or dignitas, and an enemy of the Res Publica. If the
<authorities are unable to bring you to the justice you so richly
<deserve, I pray that Nemesis and the Furies find you in this world or
<the next.

I agree. While we may not be able to use mundane methods to bring this person to justice, there
are other ways.

I am happy to see that so many citizens, whether they agree with G Iulius Scaurus' political
and/or religious viewpoints or not, have added their words to renounce the coward who has been
electronically harrassing him.

Vale,
Diana Octavia

Salve Fabia Vera,

Sit down because I am going to defend you :-)

> 1. Fuscus and I certainly did not send them.

I will tell you why I personally never even considered for a second that you sent the hate emails
to Scaurus:
You are way too direct to do something sneaky and cowardly like that. I may not agree with a lot
of what you say, but I am quite certain that sneakiness and cowardness is not your character.

Vale,
Diana Octavia

Gaius Modius Athanasius Fr. Apulo Caesar salutem dicit

I'm sorry to hear that Caesar, I have certainly enjoyed our limited dialogue over the past several months. People on both sides of the political fence say things they either a. don't mean or b. probably shouldn't say. Just recently when Scaurus resigned in the Collegium another member of the Collegium (who I shall not name) asked if anyone else wanted to leave, stating the door was open, and named me specifially as a hopeful candidate for resignation. Fortunatly, no one left the Collegium after all.

I see you have ignored those who have invited you to leave Nova Roma, and I have done the same. That is all we can do; we stay in Nova Roma and do what we can to build upon the vision of a New Rome.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/26/2004 5:06:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sacro_barese_impero@... writes:

> Sorrym I wouldn't create other unuseful discussions and I don't know
> if this is what Faustus referred ...
>
> but I have been strongly invited in public and private to leave Nova
> Roma by some people calling now Boni and for several and often no-
> sense reasons!
>
> In the past this men had a very politically un-correct
> trying to
> remove people and magistrate more than create a serious and
> costructive opposition.
>
> Vale
> Fr. Apulus Caesar