Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. May 28-31, 2004

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24125 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Chat?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24126 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24127 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Establishing the office of "Pontifex Minor"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24128 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Cultural Background & Reconstructing Ancient Worldviews
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24129 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24130 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Augur taking auspices for meetings of the Co
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24131 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Attention:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24132 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Attention:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24133 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: ante diem V Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24134 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: ATTENTION ALL CITIZENS: AEDILICIAN EDICTUM
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24135 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: CORRECTION - regarding Sacerdos Magna Matre Decretum!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24136 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24137 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: ATTENTION ALL PATRICIAN VOTERS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24138 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24139 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24140 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24141 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24142 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: A Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24143 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: A Question (This might help narrow it down some)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24144 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24145 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Priesthood
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24146 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question (This might help narrow it down some)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24147 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Digest Number 1310
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24148 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question (This might help narrow it down some)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24149 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1310
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24150 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24151 From: KECTAM@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Endorsement for Plebeian Aedile candidate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24152 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24153 From: jlasalle@sbcglobal.net Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24154 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pri...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24155 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Rem
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24156 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Roman dates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24157 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: [ReligioRomana] New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24158 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Citizens, go to the Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24159 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: [ReligioRomana] New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24160 From: bcatfd@together.net Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Lictor recognizes new Pontiff; banning of citizen from priesthood
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24161 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The SPQR Ring update
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24162 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: SPWR Ring update
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24163 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - regarding the College's vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24164 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Interviews
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24165 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: suggestions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24166 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24167 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24168 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24169 From: Sp. Postumius Tubertus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Congratulations, Caius Modius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24170 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24171 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - regarding the College's vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24172 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii and the Ambarvalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24173 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: ATTENTION ALL CITIZENS: AEDILICIAN EDICTUM
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24174 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: (no subject)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24175 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Witness to the Appointment of Gais Modius Athanasius as Pontiff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24176 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: [ComitiaCuriata] Comitia Curiata convened - May 2004
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24177 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Congratulations Gaius Modius!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24178 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - regarding the College's vote
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24179 From: Stefn_Ullarsson Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Witnessing of Pontifical Announcements
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24180 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: The Ambarvalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24181 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24182 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24183 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia / people of positive influence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24184 From: sacro_barese_impero@libero.it Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Hi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24185 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia / people of positive influence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24186 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24187 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: ante diem III Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24188 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24189 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24190 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24191 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pries
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24192 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24193 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: my infected message
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24194 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24195 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24196 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24197 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24198 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Reflections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24199 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24200 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24201 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24202 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24203 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24204 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24205 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24206 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24207 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24208 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24209 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24210 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Reflections
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24211 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XII - Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24212 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24213 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Pridie Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24214 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Pridie Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24215 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24216 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24217 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Calendar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24218 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24219 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24220 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24221 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar (and another link)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24222 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24223 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24224 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar (and another link)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24225 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24226 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Q. Fabius Maximus (emails)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24227 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24228 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24229 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24230 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24231 From: matt hicks Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: and now for something completely different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24232 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Witness of Priesthood and Removal of Same
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24233 From: M.ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: OPPIDUM COMPLUTI (HISPANIA): AEDILES OPPIDI ELECTIONS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24234 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24235 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24236 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24237 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24238 From: maria rotella Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: new member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24239 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24240 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Q. Fabius Maximus (emails)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24241 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Edictum Censoris CFQ XI about the Annual Gens Registration
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24242 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24243 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: new member
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24244 From: Equestria Iunia Laeca Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24245 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24246 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Apelo! Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24247 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Appeal ; my reasons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24248 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Fwd: MY APPEAL fv
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24249 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24250 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24251 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24252 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Private Letters
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24253 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Diana and your willingness to work
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24254 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24255 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Decision Process of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24256 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Fwd: Re: Money... lots of money for Nova Roma... for what?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24257 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24258 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24259 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24260 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Decision Process of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24261 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24262 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24263 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24264 From: Al E Keller Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: curious....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24265 From: Euphemia Cassia Mercuria Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24266 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24267 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: curious....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24268 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24269 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: List unsubbing



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24125 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Chat?
Ave omnes

if anyone would like to try it, I'll be in the nova roma chat room (
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat ) for about one hour starting from...
now.

vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of teh Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24126 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Salvete,

The Collegium Pontificum has just concluded a vote, and has co-opted Flamen
and Augur Gaius Modius Athanasius as a Pontifex of Nova Roma by a vote of 6 to
1.

I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will show our new Pontifex all proper
respect, and welcome him into this, his third major office in the Religio
Romana of Nova Roma.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24127 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Establishing the office of "Pontifex Minor"
Salvete,

The following decretum establishing the new office of "Pontifex Minor" was
drafted by Pontifex G. Iulius Scarus, and has been unanimously approved by the
Collegium Pontificum:



DECRETUM DE PONTIFICIBUS MINORIBUS

QVOD BONVM FAVSTVM FELIX FORTVNATVMQVE SIT POPVLO ROMANO QUIRITIBVS.
The Collegium Pontificum has met and decreed the following:

I. In accordance with the Mos Maiorum the Collegium Pontificum restores
and establishes the office of Pontifex Minor.

II. A Pontifex Minor shall act as an assistant and scriba to a
Pontifex, to the Collegium as a whole, or for a project established by
the Collegium Pontificum.

III. Pontifices Minores shall be appointed by an affirmative majority
vote of the Collegium Pontificum and may be removed by (1) the Pontifex
to whom the Pontifex Minor is assigned, (2) the Pontifex Maximus for any
Pontifex Minor appointed to the Collegium as a whole or any project
thereof, or (3) an affirmative majority vote of the Collegium Pontificum.

IV. The office of Pontifex Minor shall carry no century points.

V. Individual Pontifices may request appointment of a specific
candidate as Pontifex Minor in accordance with III of this decretum.

VI. No individual Pontifex may be assigned more than two Pontifices
Minores except by an affirmative majority vote of the Collegium Pontificum.

VII. Pontifices Minores shall not be members of the Collegium
Pontificum. Ponrtifices are not permitted to participate in discussions
of the Collegium Pontificum except in connection with their official duties.

VIII. No Pontifex Minor shall discuss the internal business of the
Collegium Pontificum with anyone except a member of the Collegium
Pontificum except as authorised by the Pontifex to whom the Pontifex
Minor is assigned or by the Pontifex Maximus for Pontifices Minor
assigned generally to the Collegium Pontificum or to a specific project.

IX. A candidate for Pontifex Minor must be a practitioner of the
Religio Romana.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24128 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Cultural Background & Reconstructing Ancient Worldviews
T Labienus Omnibus SPD

This is a link to an *excellent* article on worldviews, cultural backgrounds,
reconstructing ancient religions, and a wide number of other, related
subjects. It's written with Germanic Heathenry in mind, but there's plenty
that applies to the Religio Romana and Nova Roma. I'm still chewing on it;
there's much that I'm not sure I agree with, but everything I've read so far
bears thinking about.

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/cultural_bkgd.pdf
(It's a 70-page PDF with dense text, roughly 610Kb)

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24129 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Salvete Quirites,

Please join me in congratulating Gaius Modius Athanasius on acheiving
this honor. Gai Modi, you've worked very hard to reach this point, and
I congratulate you.

Valete,

-- Marinus

cassius622@... wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> The Collegium Pontificum has just concluded a vote, and has co-opted Flamen
> and Augur Gaius Modius Athanasius as a Pontifex of Nova Roma by a vote of 6 to
> 1.
>
> I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will show our new Pontifex all proper
> respect, and welcome him into this, his third major office in the Religio
> Romana of Nova Roma.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24130 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Augur taking auspices for meetings of the Co
A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend Domitius
Constantinus Fuscus, and to all his fellow-citizens
and all peregrines, greetings.

> I take note, I retract the "illegal" and I apologize
> if someone took offence at
> that, as it was not my intention. I actually do not
> think it was pedantic of
> you to point it out, the only way a non native
> speaker can improve is being
> showed his mistakes (even if maybe a private post
> would have been nicer and
> would have produced the same public retractation of
> the term and apology anyway
> ;) )

Sorry - my feeling was that it was better to say
something in public so that the pontiffs could see it,
in order to decrease the danger that they would take
offence before you had the chance to read my message
and reply.

And since it's a public conversation, I'll remain in
public to answer your question:

> Anyway, the Collegium, as you said, acted
> ineffectively, yet it did something
> more and for me it also did act "Unlawfully" then?
> Or "umproperly" maybe? I'll
> try to explain and maybe you or someone else will be
> able to help me find the
> most proper adjective.

I think 'unlawfully' has some of the implications of
'illegally'. 'Improperly' is better. Another
possibility is 'inappropriately'.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24131 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Attention:
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24132 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Attention:
____________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24133 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: ante diem V Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem V Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is is ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii and the Ambarvalia; the day
is comitialis. The Ambarvalia is the ritual purification of the fields
and connected with such agricultural deities as Ceres, Bacchus, and
Mars. Field boundaries were purified by a procession of sacrificial
animals, the suovetaurilia. It was both a public and a private
caerimonia. The principal source for the private caerimonia is Cato's
_De agricultura_. The Souvetaurilia was a procession of a pig, sheep,
and ox which were led around the bounds by the property owner. After a
prefatory libation to Ianus and Iuppiter the animals and smelt cakes
were sacrificed to Mars. Auspicia oblativa were then observed and, if
unfavourable, the sacrifice was repeated. The sacrifice was followed by
a festival to Mars, Ceres, and Bacchus during which all work was
suspended and no ill-omened word was to be uttered. The caerimonia of
the Religio Publica was conducted by the Fratres Arvales.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24134 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: ATTENTION ALL CITIZENS: AEDILICIAN EDICTUM
EDICTUM DE FERIA AMBARVALIA

Whereas the Constitution of Nova Roma empowers the Aediles Curules:
IV.A.4.a. To hold Imperium; and
IV.A.4.b To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to see to the conduct
of public games and other festivals and gatherings, to ensure order at
public religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public
facilities that the State should acquire, and to administer the law
(such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others),

Therefore, we, G. Iulius Scaurus, Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et
Pontifex, and M. Iulius Perusianus, Aedilis Curulis, decree and command:

I. The Ambarvalia shall be observed in accordance with mos maiorum on
ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May);

II. In accordance with the mos maiorum the utterance of words of
ill-omen are forbidden on the Ambarvalia;

III. No citizen shall utter words of ill-omen, including words of
harshness or disrepect to any other citizen, in any public venue of Nova
Roma from 0:00 hours Roman time to 24:00 hours Roman time on ante diem
IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May), the period of the Ambarvalia;

IV. The utterance of words of ill-omen on the Ambarvalia shall
constitute public disrespect for the Gods of Rome;

V. Any citizen who violates this edictum shall be cited before the
Collegium Pontificum by the Aediles Curules for invocation of the
Blasphemy Decretum, to wit, for violation of article III thereof:
"No Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public disrespect for
the Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the Religio
Romana no matter what their personal beliefs."

VI. This edictum does not constitute list moderation reserved to the
imperium of the praetores but rather facilitation of the conduct of a
public festival and to ensure order at a religious event.

VII. This edictum takes effect immediately.

Given on ante diem VII Kalendae Iunii in the consulship of Cn. Salix
Astur and Gn. Equitius Marinus.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

M. Iulius Perusianus
Aedilis Curulis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24135 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: CORRECTION - regarding Sacerdos Magna Matre Decretum!
Salvete,

There was a typographical error in my last post. I typed "The Collegium
Pontificum has voted to strip Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta of her position as Sacerdos
Matris Deorum Magnae, and to ban her from ever holding another public office
in Nova Roma."

This should have read "ban her from ever holding another public Priesthood in
Nova Roma."

My most sincere apologies for this error!! The Collegium Pontificum can only
ban Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta from religious priesthoods, not from elected
secular offices. This was a simple slip in typing on my part, as I was trying to
get this done in a hurry while at work.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24136 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Flavius Vedius Germanicus L. Arminius Faustus S.P.D.

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Lex Salicia (or Lex Labiena, my memory fails me) orders the
Tribunes
> to call Comitia Populi instead of Comitia Plebis due to the ordo
> proportion. So, the vast majority of the tribunitian proposals
should
> go to the Comitia Populi. And, in fact, on all the Leges Arminias
I
> considered having changes that should be asked to all NR people.
>
> On Ancient Rome, since plebeians were 99% of population, there was
no
> really difference between Plebiscita and Comitia Populi for
> legislative matters. However, I´m inclined to agree with the
current
> lex, since NR has a demographic population of the Early Republic
> (lots of patricians - even a half), if you adopt the uses of Later
> Republic, you take out easily half of the population of the
decision.
> However, the own Law (a good law, indeed) specifies that when the
> plebeians be a larger group, the uses of Plebiscita be retaken.
Until
> that, all laws for Comitia Plebis are applied to Comitia Populi
when
> called by Tribunicia Potestas.
>
> And for decisions, how many express their will, better.
>
> But surely the patricians have all the liberty to vote ´abstineo´
if
> this hurts their feelings. I really don´t see why, but...

I'm afraid I was apparently unclear in my original message. My
apologies; I shall attempt to re-state my concern.

I am fully aware of the reason behind the ahistorical power of the
Tribunes to call the Comitia Populi (it was the Lex *Vedia* de
Tribunis that amended the Constitution to include the change, after
all). In order for the Tribunes to have an effective role in
legislation, that would not de facto shut out a large segment of the
population (i.e., the Patrician order), it was decided to modify
historical precident to meet current needs (an excellent example of
when doing so is appropriate, by the way).

My question, rather, dealt with the specific contents of one of the
Leges itself. That is, while most legislation is properly put to the
Comitia Populi, those leges that deal with the internal workings of
the Comitia Plebis can *only* be enacted by the Comitia Plebis:

"...only the comitia plebis tributa shall pass laws governing the
rules by which it shall operate internally." (Paragraph III.C. of
the Constitution)

Since the Lex Arminia de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum
specifically deals with altering the timing of votes within the
Comitia Plebis (which most certainly fall in the category of "rules
by which it shall operate internally") then it should properly be
voted on by the Comitia Plebis, not the Comitia Populi.

Please note that I have nothing against the lex in question
specifically; it's just a matter of procedure and jurisdiction.

Simply put, the Comitia Populi has no authority to alter the way the
Comitia Plebis operates, which is exactly what the Lex Arminia de
Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum tries to do.

I would ask that it be stricken from the ballot of the Comitia
Populi and resubmitted to the Comitia Plebis after the current vote
is concluded, to comply with the Constitutional principle that one
Comitia cannot tell another how to operate internally.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24137 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: ATTENTION ALL PATRICIAN VOTERS
The Rogator A. Apollonius Cordus to all his
fellow-citizens, and particularly to all patricians,
greetings.

Apologies for sending two empty messages previously.

There appears to have been a problem in the cista
during the early stages of voting in the comitia
populi tributa. It is now working properly. However,
it meant that patricians were unable to vote on two
leges.

Would all patricians who voted before 04:00 Roman Time
on Wednesday the 26th (i.e., those who have vote
tracking numbers between 800 and 837) please VOTE
AGAIN.

The first new vote received from each patrician voter
who already voted before 04:00 on Wednesday will be
counted as that voter's true vote.

We will still count as valid any patrician votes cast
before that time if no new vote is cast by the same
person between now and the close of polls. However, it
would be better for all patricians to vote again now.

Thank you for your attention.





____________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24138 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
G. Iulius Scaurus Fl. Vedio Germanico salutem dicit.

Salve, Germanice.

>I would ask that it be stricken from the ballot of the Comitia
>Populi and resubmitted to the Comitia Plebis after the current vote
>is concluded, to comply with the Constitutional principle that one
>Comitia cannot tell another how to operate internally.
>

While as I patrician I officially have no opinion on how the Comitia
Plebis Tributa conducts its business, as pontifex I must point out this
proposal is simply not doable.. There aren't enough dies comitales
available for contio and voting until the second half of June.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24139 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Salve,

Thanks by answering:

However, according to Lex Labiena/Salicia, I understand that Comitia
Plebis and Comitia Populi called by a Tribune turns into sinonima,
ie, the same, and the two cases in fact are the same Comitia, a
Comitia called by the Tribunicia Potestas.

So, even Lex Moravia, when talks about Comitia Plebis, the tribunes
used the rules of the law to call the current Comitia Populi. So, it
is exchangeable the terms. Lex Moravia of Comitia Plebis, under the
effect of Lex Labiena/Salicia, rules the Comitia Populi called by a
Tribune.

On Rome, the Comitias can overlap all their powers. Specially on
legislative matters, the Comitia Populi could legislate under and
over legislations of Centuriata, the Centuriata could do the same to
Comitia Populi and so goes on.

The ´way´ the roman people was gathered was defined by the auspices
of the magistrate. Consul and Praetores with the Imperium could
gather the army, ie, people gathered by centuries. A Tribune could
only gather the people by tribes, ie, Comitia Tributa.

But the power of the leges in fact remained the same. In fact, on
Ancient Rome, 99% of legislation were throught plebiscite, ie,
Comitia Plebis, that really wasn´t even a Comitia. The uses of
Comitia Centuriata/Populi for legislation felt on desuse after early
Republic.

So, all laws of and to Comitia Plebis are applied to Comitia Populi
when called by a Tribune. We must not attach ourselves to the term
´Comitia´ but ´under what power of magistrature the roman people is
called to gather and vote?´. This is the answer of the question.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
<germanicus@g...> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus L. Arminius Faustus S.P.D.
>
> Salve,
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Lex Salicia (or Lex Labiena, my memory fails me) orders the
> Tribunes
> > to call Comitia Populi instead of Comitia Plebis due to the ordo
> > proportion. So, the vast majority of the tribunitian proposals
> should
> > go to the Comitia Populi. And, in fact, on all the Leges Arminias
> I
> > considered having changes that should be asked to all NR people.
> >
> > On Ancient Rome, since plebeians were 99% of population, there
was
> no
> > really difference between Plebiscita and Comitia Populi for
> > legislative matters. However, I´m inclined to agree with the
> current
> > lex, since NR has a demographic population of the Early Republic
> > (lots of patricians - even a half), if you adopt the uses of
Later
> > Republic, you take out easily half of the population of the
> decision.
> > However, the own Law (a good law, indeed) specifies that when the
> > plebeians be a larger group, the uses of Plebiscita be retaken.
> Until
> > that, all laws for Comitia Plebis are applied to Comitia Populi
> when
> > called by Tribunicia Potestas.
> >
> > And for decisions, how many express their will, better.
> >
> > But surely the patricians have all the liberty to vote ´abstineo´
> if
> > this hurts their feelings. I really don´t see why, but...
>
> I'm afraid I was apparently unclear in my original message. My
> apologies; I shall attempt to re-state my concern.
>
> I am fully aware of the reason behind the ahistorical power of the
> Tribunes to call the Comitia Populi (it was the Lex *Vedia* de
> Tribunis that amended the Constitution to include the change, after
> all). In order for the Tribunes to have an effective role in
> legislation, that would not de facto shut out a large segment of
the
> population (i.e., the Patrician order), it was decided to modify
> historical precident to meet current needs (an excellent example of
> when doing so is appropriate, by the way).
>
> My question, rather, dealt with the specific contents of one of the
> Leges itself. That is, while most legislation is properly put to
the
> Comitia Populi, those leges that deal with the internal workings of
> the Comitia Plebis can *only* be enacted by the Comitia Plebis:
>
> "...only the comitia plebis tributa shall pass laws governing the
> rules by which it shall operate internally." (Paragraph III.C. of
> the Constitution)
>
> Since the Lex Arminia de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum
> specifically deals with altering the timing of votes within the
> Comitia Plebis (which most certainly fall in the category of "rules
> by which it shall operate internally") then it should properly be
> voted on by the Comitia Plebis, not the Comitia Populi.
>
> Please note that I have nothing against the lex in question
> specifically; it's just a matter of procedure and jurisdiction.
>
> Simply put, the Comitia Populi has no authority to alter the way
the
> Comitia Plebis operates, which is exactly what the Lex Arminia de
> Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum tries to do.
>
> I would ask that it be stricken from the ballot of the Comitia
> Populi and resubmitted to the Comitia Plebis after the current vote
> is concluded, to comply with the Constitutional principle that one
> Comitia cannot tell another how to operate internally.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24140 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Salvete Quirites,

Gaius Iulius Scaurus writes, in reply to Flavius Vedius Germanicus:
> While as I patrician I officially have no opinion on how the Comitia
> Plebis Tributa conducts its business, as pontifex I must point out this
> proposal is simply not doable.. There aren't enough dies comitales
> available for contio and voting until the second half of June.

Scaurus is entirely correct in this. I have been in contact with the
rogators, and the recent announcement by Cordus is a result of that
communication.

I remind all voters that they may choose to abstain from voting on any
particular item, should their conscience so dictate.

I would also ask citizens to remember that the agenda was available for
comment all of last week, during the Contio period. Questions raised
then could have been addressed in a timely manner before the voting
began. The Contio is now over, and questions at this point should be
limited to those which address the mechanics of the vote itself.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24141 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Salvete,

Let me add my personal congratulations to Gaius Moidus.

Valete,

Gaius Popillius Laenas

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Please join me in congratulating Gaius Modius Athanasius on
acheiving
> this honor. Gai Modi, you've worked very hard to reach this
point, and
> I congratulate you.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
>
> cassius622@a... wrote:
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > The Collegium Pontificum has just concluded a vote, and has co-
opted Flamen
> > and Augur Gaius Modius Athanasius as a Pontifex of Nova Roma by
a vote of 6 to
> > 1.
> >
> > I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will show our new Pontifex
all proper
> > respect, and welcome him into this, his third major office in
the Religio
> > Romana of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > Pontifex Maximus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24142 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: A Question
Salve!

I have a question for everyone. I am doing some research for my Gens website and I was wondering
if anyone knows if the date that is commonly used for the birth of our adopted ancestor, Marcus Ulpisa Traianus, 18 September is in the Julian calendar or Gregorian, and if it is the latter how I would convert that to Julian to give me a closer to correct date of birth, if it has not been adjusted already.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Pax!
mTv



------------------------------------------------------------
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www.geocities.com/genstraiana

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24143 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: A Question (This might help narrow it down some)
Trajan was born at Italica on the fourteenth day before the Kalends of October when Torquatus and Antoninus were the consuls.

Marcus Traianus Valerius <genstraiana@...> wrote:Salve!

I have a question for everyone. I am doing some research for my Gens website and I was wondering
if anyone knows if the date that is commonly used for the birth of our adopted ancestor, Marcus Ulpisa Traianus, 18 September is in the Julian calendar or Gregorian, and if it is the latter how I would convert that to Julian to give me a closer to correct date of birth, if it has not been adjusted already.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Pax!
mTv



------------------------------------------------------------
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www.geocities.com/genstraiana

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24144 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The current vote
Salve,

Anyway, reading again post, I´m thinking on a legislation confirming
the jurisprudence already adopted.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Thanks by answering:
>
> However, according to Lex Labiena/Salicia, I understand that
Comitia
> Plebis and Comitia Populi called by a Tribune turns into sinonima,
> ie, the same, and the two cases in fact are the same Comitia, a
> Comitia called by the Tribunicia Potestas.
>
> So, even Lex Moravia, when talks about Comitia Plebis, the tribunes
> used the rules of the law to call the current Comitia Populi. So,
it
> is exchangeable the terms. Lex Moravia of Comitia Plebis, under the
> effect of Lex Labiena/Salicia, rules the Comitia Populi called by a
> Tribune.
>
> On Rome, the Comitias can overlap all their powers. Specially on
> legislative matters, the Comitia Populi could legislate under and
> over legislations of Centuriata, the Centuriata could do the same
to
> Comitia Populi and so goes on.
>
> The ´way´ the roman people was gathered was defined by the auspices
> of the magistrate. Consul and Praetores with the Imperium could
> gather the army, ie, people gathered by centuries. A Tribune could
> only gather the people by tribes, ie, Comitia Tributa.
>
> But the power of the leges in fact remained the same. In fact, on
> Ancient Rome, 99% of legislation were throught plebiscite, ie,
> Comitia Plebis, that really wasn´t even a Comitia. The uses of
> Comitia Centuriata/Populi for legislation felt on desuse after
early
> Republic.
>
> So, all laws of and to Comitia Plebis are applied to Comitia Populi
> when called by a Tribune. We must not attach ourselves to the term
> ´Comitia´ but ´under what power of magistrature the roman people is
> called to gather and vote?´. This is the answer of the question.
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
> <germanicus@g...> wrote:
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus L. Arminius Faustus S.P.D.
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> > <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Lex Salicia (or Lex Labiena, my memory fails me) orders the
> > Tribunes
> > > to call Comitia Populi instead of Comitia Plebis due to the
ordo
> > > proportion. So, the vast majority of the tribunitian proposals
> > should
> > > go to the Comitia Populi. And, in fact, on all the Leges
Arminias
> > I
> > > considered having changes that should be asked to all NR people.
> > >
> > > On Ancient Rome, since plebeians were 99% of population, there
> was
> > no
> > > really difference between Plebiscita and Comitia Populi for
> > > legislative matters. However, I´m inclined to agree with the
> > current
> > > lex, since NR has a demographic population of the Early
Republic
> > > (lots of patricians - even a half), if you adopt the uses of
> Later
> > > Republic, you take out easily half of the population of the
> > decision.
> > > However, the own Law (a good law, indeed) specifies that when
the
> > > plebeians be a larger group, the uses of Plebiscita be retaken.
> > Until
> > > that, all laws for Comitia Plebis are applied to Comitia Populi
> > when
> > > called by Tribunicia Potestas.
> > >
> > > And for decisions, how many express their will, better.
> > >
> > > But surely the patricians have all the liberty to vote
´abstineo´
> > if
> > > this hurts their feelings. I really don´t see why, but...
> >
> > I'm afraid I was apparently unclear in my original message. My
> > apologies; I shall attempt to re-state my concern.
> >
> > I am fully aware of the reason behind the ahistorical power of
the
> > Tribunes to call the Comitia Populi (it was the Lex *Vedia* de
> > Tribunis that amended the Constitution to include the change,
after
> > all). In order for the Tribunes to have an effective role in
> > legislation, that would not de facto shut out a large segment of
> the
> > population (i.e., the Patrician order), it was decided to modify
> > historical precident to meet current needs (an excellent example
of
> > when doing so is appropriate, by the way).
> >
> > My question, rather, dealt with the specific contents of one of
the
> > Leges itself. That is, while most legislation is properly put to
> the
> > Comitia Populi, those leges that deal with the internal workings
of
> > the Comitia Plebis can *only* be enacted by the Comitia Plebis:
> >
> > "...only the comitia plebis tributa shall pass laws governing the
> > rules by which it shall operate internally." (Paragraph III.C. of
> > the Constitution)
> >
> > Since the Lex Arminia de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum
> > specifically deals with altering the timing of votes within the
> > Comitia Plebis (which most certainly fall in the category
of "rules
> > by which it shall operate internally") then it should properly be
> > voted on by the Comitia Plebis, not the Comitia Populi.
> >
> > Please note that I have nothing against the lex in question
> > specifically; it's just a matter of procedure and jurisdiction.
> >
> > Simply put, the Comitia Populi has no authority to alter the way
> the
> > Comitia Plebis operates, which is exactly what the Lex Arminia de
> > Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum tries to do.
> >
> > I would ask that it be stricken from the ballot of the Comitia
> > Populi and resubmitted to the Comitia Plebis after the current
vote
> > is concluded, to comply with the Constitutional principle that
one
> > Comitia cannot tell another how to operate internally.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Pater Patriae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24145 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Priesthood
--- In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
Salvete Omnes,

By a vote of 6 to 1 (myself being the dissenting vote), the Collegium
Pontificum has voted to strip Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta of her
position as Sacerdos
Matris Deorum Magnae, and to ban her from ever holding another public
office in
Nova Roma.

This decretum, written by G. Iulius Scarus, is effective immediately.
Citizens will no longer regard Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta as a
representative of the
Religio Romana in any regard whatever.


DECRETVM DE EXPVNGENDO SACERDOTIS AEDIS MATRIS DEORVM MAGNAE

QVOD BONVM FAVSTVM FELIX FORTVNATVMQVE SIT POPVLO ROMANO QUIRITIBUS.

The Collegium Pontificum, having met in order to deal with the
manifest
unsuitability for the holy trust of priesthood exhibited by Spuria
Fabia
Vera Fausta since her appointment as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae,
decrees:

We find that by gross disrespect to the Religio Publica Romana, its
most
sacred rituals, and its institutions Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta has
rendered herself unfit to perform any priestly function. We therefore
rescind and expunge her appointment as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae
and
judge her unfit to hold any position of religious responsibility in
the
Religio Publica Romana in perpetuity. We beg forgiveness of Magna
Deorum Mater and the Di Immortales for the grave misjudgment of the
Collegium Pontificum in the appointment of Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
and
the forgiveness of the Senate and People of the Novaromans, the
Quirites, for this error. We further decree that public piacula shall
be offered to Mater Deorum Magna by the Collegium Pontificum for a
nundinum for the offence given by the original appointment.
--- End forwarded message ---
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24146 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question (This might help narrow it down some)
Salve,

The Gregorian adjustment to the calendar was a correction of dating
drift that occured after the Council of Niceia set the dates for
Easter early in the Foruth Century CE, and isn't concerned with dates
or drifts that occured prior to the Council.

The adjustment was made in October of 1582 CE, and has no effects on
dates prior to that time, so Trajan's Birthdate would be the same in
either the Gregorian or Julian Calendars.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Traianus Valerius
<genstraiana@y...> wrote:
> Trajan was born at Italica on the fourteenth day before the Kalends
of October when Torquatus and Antoninus were the consuls.
>
> Marcus Traianus Valerius <genstraiana@y...> wrote:Salve!
>
> I have a question for everyone. I am doing some research for my
Gens website and I was wondering
> if anyone knows if the date that is commonly used for the birth of
our adopted ancestor, Marcus Ulpisa Traianus, 18 September is in the
Julian calendar or Gregorian, and if it is the latter how I would
convert that to Julian to give me a closer to correct date of birth,
if it has not been adjusted already.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> Pax!
> mTv
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Gens Traiana Home Page
> www.geocities.com/genstraiana
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
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>
> ---------------------------------
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> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24147 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Digest Number 1310
L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus SPD

Salvete

<lafaustus@y...>
L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis

"ii. To issue decreta (decrees) on matters of the ars augurium and
its own > internal procedures (such decreta may not be overruled by
laws passed in the > comitia or Senatus consultum)."

There is a petitio principii hidden on the argument bellow, that
turns it wrong.

Cincinnatus: What?


Contituition states that ON INTERNAL PROCEDURES of ars augurium the
Law passed by the Comitia cannot overrule (not roman concept, really.
Medieval, perhaps, The two powers. However, Dura lex sed lex, we must
obey the Constitution)

Cincinatus: Again, What?
BTW the Constitution says,
"on matters of the ars augurium (art of Augury) *AND* its own internal
procedures."
Also, you conveniently left out the fact that said Decetum was also issued
by the College Pontificum.

Also, the Decretum in question was issued by BOTH the College Augurum AND
the College Pontificum

Also, the Constitution says,
Preamble
"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic."

"VI. Public Religious Institutions
B.The priesthoods of the Gods of Rome shall be organized as closely as
practical on the ancient Roman model..."


INTERNAL PROCEDURES and ARS AUGURIUM.

So, the following law, on exemple, is invalid:

LEX DE RITII ET COLUMBAE

snip

However, the following law is valid, for example

LEX DE TEMPORA AUGURIUM

1. An augur must receive the asks of ...

What???

2. The Colegium Augurium should issue a decreta ...

Snip

LEX DE COLUMBAE II

Cincinnatus: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with
Bovine Manure! This is the sum of your post, BS.

________________________________________________________________

This is what the Constitution wants to say.

Cincinnatus: What is wants to say??? What are you talking about?
It says what it says. In matters of the Religio the Colleges have
"Authority".

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

The Colleges are trying to construct the religio along historical
guidelines, as stipulated by the Constitution BTW, and our efforts are being
attacked via disingenuous arguments based on conflicting clauses of the
Constitution.

Where there is a conflict we are directed to choose the path that was taken
by those Romans. "The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

In this case the Plebs never used Augury to call their Comitia as a matter
of Plebian autonomy. So, I find your argument specious, argument for the
sake of argument only.

So, in this case it's the lex that's "wrong" historically, while the
Decretum Collegii Pontificum et Augurum De Iure Auspicandi et Tripudio
(Issued by both Colleges)
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/pontifices/2003-12-07-i.htm
is based on solid historical evidence.

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24148 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question (This might help narrow it down some)
Excellent. Thanks a million!


Lucius Sicinius Drusus <drusus@...> wrote:
Salve,

The Gregorian adjustment to the calendar was a correction of dating
drift that occured after the Council of Niceia set the dates for
Easter early in the Foruth Century CE, and isn't concerned with dates
or drifts that occured prior to the Council.

The adjustment was made in October of 1582 CE, and has no effects on
dates prior to that time, so Trajan's Birthdate would be the same in
either the Gregorian or Julian Calendars.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Traianus Valerius
<genstraiana@y...> wrote:
> Trajan was born at Italica on the fourteenth day before the Kalends
of October when Torquatus and Antoninus were the consuls.
>
> Marcus Traianus Valerius <genstraiana@y...> wrote:Salve!
>
> I have a question for everyone. I am doing some research for my
Gens website and I was wondering
> if anyone knows if the date that is commonly used for the birth of
our adopted ancestor, Marcus Ulpisa Traianus, 18 September is in the
Julian calendar or Gregorian, and if it is the latter how I would
convert that to Julian to give me a closer to correct date of birth,
if it has not been adjusted already.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> Pax!
> mTv
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Gens Traiana Home Page
> www.geocities.com/genstraiana
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Gens Traiana Home Page
> www.geocities.com/genstraiana
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24149 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1310
Salve,

"and our efforts are being > attacked via disingenuous arguments
based on conflicting clauses of the > Constitution."

First of all, take it easy, OK? You are talking with a Sacrosainct
Tribune of the Plebis, so sacred like a piece of an altar. Mostly
than all, I have also my personal griefs to mourn, but I will try to
keep them outside of this post. Politics have their price, and I have
paid dearly.

Do not assume a bad-will our bad-intentions I don´t have. I stated
argumentation solely based on the law. The law doesn´t allow none to
change the internal procedures of the religio, OK. I will defend
until death this procedure, and all my colleagues.

That is the petitio principii. The constitution allows the procedures
DEALING with the Religio, since not changing THE INTERNAL PROCEDURES
of the Religio. However, we can easily turn the Constitution into the
petitio principii, a changing of modo subtle to use the clause to
make everything falling into the Religio Subject, and making it a
clause to overrule all on the Republica. This interpretation, wrong,
should be prevented.

Dura Lex Sed Lex and Lex Moravia states auspices should be taken. If
there was a problem, it should be warned on the Contio of the law,
and the dispositive of Constitution should be used, if it applies.
Since it was passed, dura lex sed lex. Now, another lex to be voted
correcting it. That is why after a deep research on the procedures of
Comitia I´ve proposed this law.

Anyway, later I will answer more. My head is very hot, my heart is
filled with pain and grief. And this is a very dangerous writting on
that case, even worst than like drinking and driving.

People, vote on the Comitia. This is the best you can do for our Res
Publica.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil96@c...>
wrote:
> L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus SPD
>
> Salvete
>
> <lafaustus@y...>
> L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis
>
> "ii. To issue decreta (decrees) on matters of the ars augurium and
> its own > internal procedures (such decreta may not be overruled by
> laws passed in the > comitia or Senatus consultum)."
>
> There is a petitio principii hidden on the argument bellow, that
> turns it wrong.
>
> Cincinnatus: What?
>
>
> Contituition states that ON INTERNAL PROCEDURES of ars augurium the
> Law passed by the Comitia cannot overrule (not roman concept,
really.
> Medieval, perhaps, The two powers. However, Dura lex sed lex, we
must
> obey the Constitution)
>
> Cincinatus: Again, What?
> BTW the Constitution says,
> "on matters of the ars augurium (art of Augury) *AND* its own
internal
> procedures."
> Also, you conveniently left out the fact that said Decetum was also
issued
> by the College Pontificum.
>
> Also, the Decretum in question was issued by BOTH the College
Augurum AND
> the College Pontificum
>
> Also, the Constitution says,
> Preamble
> "As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire,
Nova Roma
> shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable,
as the
> modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic."
>
> "VI. Public Religious Institutions
> B.The priesthoods of the Gods of Rome shall be organized as closely
as
> practical on the ancient Roman model..."
>
>
> INTERNAL PROCEDURES and ARS AUGURIUM.
>
> So, the following law, on exemple, is invalid:
>
> LEX DE RITII ET COLUMBAE
>
> snip
>
> However, the following law is valid, for example
>
> LEX DE TEMPORA AUGURIUM
>
> 1. An augur must receive the asks of ...
>
> What???
>
> 2. The Colegium Augurium should issue a decreta ...
>
> Snip
>
> LEX DE COLUMBAE II
>
> Cincinnatus: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them
with
> Bovine Manure! This is the sum of your post, BS.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
>
> This is what the Constitution wants to say.
>
> Cincinnatus: What is wants to say??? What are you talking about?
> It says what it says. In matters of the Religio the Colleges have
> "Authority".
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> The Colleges are trying to construct the religio along historical
> guidelines, as stipulated by the Constitution BTW, and our efforts
are being
> attacked via disingenuous arguments based on conflicting clauses of
the
> Constitution.
>
> Where there is a conflict we are directed to choose the path that
was taken
> by those Romans. "The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma
shall be
> patterned upon those of ancient Rome."
>
> In this case the Plebs never used Augury to call their Comitia as a
matter
> of Plebian autonomy. So, I find your argument specious, argument
for the
> sake of argument only.
>
> So, in this case it's the lex that's "wrong" historically, while the
> Decretum Collegii Pontificum et Augurum De Iure Auspicandi et
Tripudio
> (Issued by both Colleges)
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/pontifices/2003-12-07-i.htm
> is based on solid historical evidence.
>
> Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24150 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question
Dates in modern form are usually given Gregorian but it
probably makes no diffreence because the count AD was
adopted later (and not in the East and in Russia only 1700)
and the discrepancy only set in from the time it was first
started as AD, around 400. Julian gains three days every
four centuries and Rome would have been using the Julian but
with not enough time elapsed since Julius Caesar to make
more than a day's difference.

Caesariensis

> Salve!
>
> I have a question for everyone. I am doing some research
> for my Gens website and I was wondering if anyone knows
> if the date that is commonly used for the birth of our
> adopted ancestor, Marcus Ulpisa Traianus, 18 September is
> in the Julian calendar or Gregorian, and if it is the
> latter how I would convert that to Julian to give me a
> closer to correct date of birth, if it has not been
> adjusted already.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24151 From: KECTAM@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Endorsement for Plebeian Aedile candidate
Salvete Cives,

A short while ago Tiberius Galerius Paulinus told us that he had asked Lucius Suetonius Nerva to stand for the office of Plebeian Aedile and requested support for this candidate.

I, too, urge you to vote for Lucius Suetonius Nerva.

Lucius Suetonius Nerva would be an excellent Plebeian Aedile. His knowledge of Rome in antiquity is prodigious and his commitment to Nova Roma unswerving. I have never known him to shrink from addressing difficult or sensitive issues, which he always handles firmly and fairly. Add to that a fine sense of humour and a modesty which belies his many capabilities and I believe, in Lucius Suetonius Nerva, we have the perfect candidate for this office.

In recent personal correspondence Lucius Suetonius Nerva made the following comment about holding office in Nova Roma:

"The responsibilities are important and honourable, to be sure, and must include competent record-keeping, diligence, observing Nova Roma's constitution, meticulous research, and knowing enough to know that sometimes you need help."

I do not believe we could have a better candidate for Plebeian Aedileship so, please, cast you vote for Lucius Suetonius Nerva.

Valete,

Placidia Prisca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24152 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pries
Titus Livius: Ab Urbe Condita 4.44.11

eodem anno Postumia uirgo Uestalis de incestu causam dixit, crimine
innoxia, ab suspicione propter cultum amoeniorem ingeniumque liberius
quam uirginem decet parum abhorrens. eam ampliatam, deinde absolutam
pro collegii sententia pontifex maximus abstinere iocis colique
sancte potius quam scite uisset.


Livy, History of Rome: Book 4, 44.11

In this same year Postumia a Vestal Virgin had to answer a charge of
unchastity. Though innocent, she had given grounds for suspicion
through her gay attire and unmaidenly freedom of manner. After she
had been remanded and finally acquitted, the Pontifex Maximus, in the
name of the whole college of priests, ordered her to abstain from
frivolity and study sanctity rather than smartness of appearance.


My pardon to our dear PM Julianus!

bene vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24153 From: jlasalle@sbcglobal.net Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: A Question
Ave

If you went back in time and asked, say Cato the Elder what was the day and
year, what would he say? I know the Romans sort of arbitrarly picked 753 bc,
but I think thats our Christian conversion
GB Agricola


-----Original Message-----
From: me-in-@... [mailto:me-in-@...]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 12:41 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] A Question


Dates in modern form are usually given Gregorian but it
probably makes no diffreence because the count AD was
adopted later (and not in the East and in Russia only 1700)
and the discrepancy only set in from the time it was first
started as AD, around 400. Julian gains three days every
four centuries and Rome would have been using the Julian but
with not enough time elapsed since Julius Caesar to make
more than a day's difference.

Caesariensis

> Salve!
>
> I have a question for everyone. I am doing some research
> for my Gens website and I was wondering if anyone knows
> if the date that is commonly used for the birth of our
> adopted ancestor, Marcus Ulpisa Traianus, 18 September is
> in the Julian calendar or Gregorian, and if it is the
> latter how I would convert that to Julian to give me a
> closer to correct date of birth, if it has not been
> adjusted already.
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24154 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pri...
Salvete omnes,

It is with a sentiment of utter disbelief and profound disgust that I learn
today of Fabia Vera Fausta's fate as she is banned from the Collegium
Pontificum.

I had come to appreciate and respect the work and dedication of those
scholars who are the honourable members of the Collegium Pontificum. But such level
of petty retaliation has damaged, in my eyes, their dignitas to such an extent
that I am not sure I shall be able to trust them ever again as our moral
leaders. Furthermore it confirms, again in my opinion, the double standards
employed when dealing with our citizens' grievances : Those who have been following
the discussions on this list for the last month or so will know who and what I
am referring too.

Since the Ambervalia is upon us I will refrain, as I usually do, from using
abusive language here so as not to bring ill-omen on Nova Roma which has been
part of my life for the last four years. But rest assured than my anger and
utter disappointment in our priests will resurface intact come Sunday and I shall
pray the gods that they should forgive the arrogance and revengul thoughts of
the Collegium.

While an election is in progress, and as candidate for the quaestorship, I
realise that my stand is probably political suicide but I can bear the nastiness
no more and I cannot hold my tongue any longer : The honour and dignitas of a
decent, pious and hard working lady has been spoiled by those in search of a
"sacrificial lamb" to be offered to vengeance. I draw the line here and now :
I will not rest until justice is done and offer my deepest sympathy to Fausta
in this dark hour.

I am sure my post will generate its share of abusive e-mail and scornful
public messages. Don't bother ! I shall unsuscribe from this list for a few days
so as to not be dragged into yet another senseless battle of wit. This will
give me time to cool down and concentrate on some real work behind the scenes
that deserve infinitely more attention than the slander and ignominy displayed by
those in whom we should place our fates.

Optime valete

C Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Candidate for Quaestor
www.members.aol.com/cornmoraviusl/welcome/index



In a message dated 28/05/04 17:16:32 GMT Daylight Time, rory12001@...
writes:

> --- In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> By a vote of 6 to 1 (myself being the dissenting vote), the Collegium
> Pontificum has voted to strip Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta of her
> position as Sacerdos
> Matris Deorum Magnae, and to ban her from ever holding another public
> office in
> Nova Roma.
>
> This decretum, written by G. Iulius Scarus, is effective immediately.
> Citizens will no longer regard Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta as a
> representative of the
> Religio Romana in any regard whatever.
>
>
> DECRETVM DE EXPVNGENDO SACERDOTIS AEDIS MATRIS DEORVM MAGNAE
>
> QVOD BONVM FAVSTVM FELIX FORTVNATVMQVE SIT POPVLO ROMANO QUIRITIBUS.
>
> The Collegium Pontificum, having met in order to deal with the
> manifest
> unsuitability for the holy trust of priesthood exhibited by Spuria
> Fabia
> Vera Fausta since her appointment as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae,
> decrees:
>
> We find that by gross disrespect to the Religio Publica Romana, its
> most
> sacred rituals, and its institutions Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta has
> rendered herself unfit to perform any priestly function. We therefore
> rescind and expunge her appointment as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae
> and
> judge her unfit to hold any position of religious responsibility in
> the
> Religio Publica Romana in perpetuity. We beg forgiveness of Magna
> Deorum Mater and the Di Immortales for the grave misjudgment of the
> Collegium Pontificum in the appointment of Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
> and
> the forgiveness of the Senate and People of the Novaromans, the
> Quirites, for this error. We further decree that public piacula shall
> be offered to Mater Deorum Magna by the Collegium Pontificum for a
> nundinum for the offence given by the original appointment.
> --- End forwarded message ---
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24155 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Rem
Ave

And Fabia Vera's post is, ladies and gentlemen, a show of style (no matter
the issue, which is an internal matter of the Collegium).

Applauds and vale

DCF

PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Sp. Fabia Vera [mailto:rory12001@...]
> Inviato: venerdì 28 maggio 2004 19.57
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fwd: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is
> Removed from Priesthood
>
> Titus Livius: Ab Urbe Condita 4.44.11
>
> eodem anno Postumia uirgo Uestalis de incestu causam dixit, crimine
> innoxia, ab suspicione propter cultum amoeniorem ingeniumque liberius
> quam uirginem decet parum abhorrens. eam ampliatam, deinde absolutam
> pro collegii sententia pontifex maximus abstinere iocis colique
> sancte potius quam scite uisset.
>
>
> Livy, History of Rome: Book 4, 44.11
>
> In this same year Postumia a Vestal Virgin had to answer a charge of
> unchastity. Though innocent, she had given grounds for suspicion
> through her gay attire and unmaidenly freedom of manner. After she
> had been remanded and finally acquitted, the Pontifex Maximus, in the
> name of the whole college of priests, ordered her to abstain from
> frivolity and study sanctity rather than smartness of appearance.
>
>
> My pardon to our dear PM Julianus!
>
> bene vale
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24156 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Roman dates
Salvete Quirites, et salve Agricola,

Welcome back Agricola! It's been a while.

Agricola asks:

> If you went back in time and asked, say Cato the Elder what was the day and
> year, what would he say?

Unless the current day was the Kalends (1st), Nones, or Ides of the
month, he'd give you an answer in terms of how many days it was until
one of those three things. For example, today is ante diem V Kal.
IVNIAS, or 5 days until the Kalends of June. Perceptive readers might
say, "But wait! There are only four days until the 1st of June," and
that's true by modern convention. But the Romans of antiquity included
the current day in their reckoning. (I have to mention Titus Labienus
Fortunatus whenever I explain this, since he's the one who explained it
all to me originally.)

Romans of antiquity usually gave the year in terms of the current
consuls, so the current year is the year of the consulship of Gnaeus
Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus. It's also the 2757th year
since the traditional founding of the City of Rome, so by that reckoning
it's MMDCCLVII ab urbe condida.

So again, to sum it all up, the date is given as (a) the number of days
remaining until either the Kalends, Nones, or Ides, and (b) what month
that event will occur in, and (c) either the current consuls, or the
number of years since Romulus plowed the pomerium.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24157 From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: [ReligioRomana] New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanas
Congratulations to the new Pontifex, Gaius Modius
Athanasius!

Arnamentia Moravia


=====

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
~Sacerdos Diana~
~Quaestor et Legata, Am. Bor., Regio IV et V~

The longest part of the journey is said to be the passing of the gate.
Marcus Terentius Varro, On Agriculture

















__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24158 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Citizens, go to the Comitia
L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis,

Citizens, who haven´t voted, vote. Many laws of interest of the roman people of the quirites are to be voted, and a questor are to be elected.

And may Iove Optimus Maximus lead the roman people of the quirites to a right decision!

And enjoy a good Ambarvalia.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus






---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail. Clique aqui!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24159 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: [ReligioRomana] New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanas
Salvete omnes,

Allow me to extend my congratulations to Gaius Modius Athanasius. I
know he will do his new religious office proud!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus







--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
<arnamentia_aurelia@y...> wrote:
>
> Congratulations to the new Pontifex, Gaius Modius
> Athanasius!
>
> Arnamentia Moravia
>
>
> =====
>
> Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
> ~Sacerdos Diana~
> ~Quaestor et Legata, Am. Bor., Regio IV et V~
>
> The longest part of the journey is said to be the passing of the
gate.
> Marcus Terentius Varro, On Agriculture
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24160 From: bcatfd@together.net Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Lictor recognizes new Pontiff; banning of citizen from priesthood
Salvete cives,

As a lictor of the Comitia Curiata, I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
witness the appointment of Gaius Modius Athansius as a Pontifex of Nova
Roma.

I also recognize that Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta has been offcially
removed from her position as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae, and that she is
banned in perpetuity from ever holding another religious office in Nova
Roma.

Valete,

In Service to Rome,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Lictor


---------------------------
---------------------------
-------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24161 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: The SPQR Ring update
Salve

Please give me you name and I will add it to the list. I have sent an inquire to the jeweler to see if we can go with the orders we have.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: dms92370
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 5:11 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The SPQR Ring update


I would also be willing to pay more for an advanced order of the
ring. It is beautiful and I was hoping there would be alot more
interest in it. I've been concerned that I wouldn't be on the initail
order list in time. Seems we have plenty of that. But, I'm not sure
I'd like to wait another year(at this rate)for us to acguire enough
orders to begin production.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Tribune Tiberi,
>
> At times I am not a patient man. Its been about 3 months since you
> began taking orders for this ring. At this rate (19 orders) pigs
> will fly and the earth will fry before the orders become a reality.
> Is there any way your silversmith could make me the ring now? I am
> not at all concerned about the extra cost and I'll get a US money
> order off to you special delivery and perhaps you could mail it
back
> as a gift to me in order to avoid duties.
>
> I have a great Roman coin of Nero he had carefully mounted in a
gold
> oakleaf design which I wear on a chain around my neck sometimes.
> This attracts a lot of attention and questions from people I meet.
> Similarily this silver ring would do the same and help attract
> newcomers to NR; in other words it is a good advertisement that
> should be out now! Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Salve Annia Octavia Indagatrix
> >
> >
> > I have deleted the first ring that nobody liked. The one we will
> be ordering is labed NRRING#2
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > "One Ring to Bind them, as Romans"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: aoctaviaindagatrix
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 1:38 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The SPQR Ring update
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > I'd get on that list, but which ring is it. Sorry..can't find
> the
> > old post. There are 3 on there now.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Annia Octavia Indagatrix
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
> <spqr753@m...>
> > wrote:
> > > Salve Romans
> > >
> > > Just a reminder that I am keep a list for the SPQR ring that
I
> > posted to the web site.
> > >
> > > Cost is $85.00 for size 11 sterling silver or $100.00 for
> other
> > sizes.
> > >
> > > For anybody who has not seen it there is a picture of it at
> the
> > yahoo group site. The Silver ring with the SPQR.
> > >
> > > As of now we have 19 citizens on the list and we need 100 to
> place
> > the order.
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24162 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: SPWR Ring update
Salve Senator Appius Tullius Cato

You are very much on the list. For those who would like to know this is the current list. If you would like to be added please send me a private e-mail.

1. Tiberius Galerius Paulinus Size 11
2. Quintus Lanius Paulinus Size 12
3. Marcus Bianchius Antonius
4. Q. Bianchius Rufinus
5. Appius Tullius Cato
6-11 Equitius Paternus
12. Galius Adoreus Caesar
13. Iono Basilicatus
14 L. Cornelius Sardonicus Size 11
15. and 16 and 17 Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus & Gnaeus Scribonius Scriptor
18. Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

19. Servius Fidelius Longinius
20. Annia Octavia Indagatrix


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24163 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - regarding the College's vote
In a message dated 5/28/04 7:20:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cassius622@... writes:

> This should have read "ban her from ever holding another public Priesthood
> in
> Nova Roma."
>
Salvete
Marcus Cassius has been busy with macronational work these last three days,
so beside this inadvertent mistake he made several others.

The DECRETUM DE SACERDOTE SACRA MATRIS DEORUM MAGNAE
was composed from input from all of Pontifices. G.Iulius Scarus wrote the
final copies in English and Latin and that is why his name appears.

In the voting for Faustus the two assenting votes were from
Marcus Cassius and Gaius Iulius.

In the voting for Modius, the dissenting vote was Marcus Cassius,

Now the record is complete

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
Pontifice






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24164 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Interviews
AVETE OMNES CIVES ROMANI


Our monthly Expert is Prof. Jean-Michel David; he teaches Ancient
Historyat the University Panthéon Sorbonne of Paris, France. He has
done many publications, some of the most important being: "The
romanization of Italy", "The judgement in the last century of Roman
Republic", "The Roman Republic (218-31). Crisis of an aristocracy".

Our monthly Expert will answer to questions about

"The Romanization of Italy",

intended as all those linguistic, social and administrative elements
needed to bring Roman civilization in all the peninsula, after the
conquest done by Rome during Republican times.

Professor David is a very important name in the field of Roman
history, and he is well known worldwide; I'm proud to have his
contribution here in Nova Roma.

Post your questions here: 21aprile AT email DOT com, you have one
month!

BENE VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Italia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24165 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: suggestions
Salvete Omnes,
remembering you to avoid public discussion in the sacer day as
ordered by our Illustris Aediles, please let me remember to vote in
the Comitiae. This is your real and concrete action to be involved
in the growth of NR.
And in the current section you are called to vote for a very
important reform about the Office of the Aedile Plebis.

And I would suggest you to vote for two candidates, two wonderful
cives and skilled men, Aelius Solars Marullinus as Aedile Plebis and
Lucius Iulius Sulla as Quaestor.
I worked and I'm working with them about several projects and I'm
quite sure that they could do an excellent job in the own Offices.
Sulla showed us his skills in the project INterview with the experts
and Marullinus worked for the organization of the last International
Rally, for the websites of the Provincia Italia and in the next live
events.
I wish them good luck and again you, all Nova Romans, vote for this
gentlemen.

Valete
Fr Apulus Caesar
Senator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24166 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Heartfelt congratulations to Athanasius on his appointment as
pontifex!

Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> The Collegium Pontificum has just concluded a vote, and has co-
opted Flamen
> and Augur Gaius Modius Athanasius as a Pontifex of Nova Roma by a
vote of 6 to
> 1.
>
> I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will show our new Pontifex
all proper
> respect, and welcome him into this, his third major office in the
Religio
> Romana of Nova Roma.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24167 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Salvete Omnes:

I would like to start a thread, during these revered and sacred hours
, as affirmed by Honoured Curule Aediles, that would keep well within
the spirit of this time, and hopefully will encourage us, as citizens,
count our blessings.

My question is this: What two or three citizens of Nova Roma have
most impacted your involvement here in NR in a positive way....and
would you expand in a sentence or two,as why that is?

( I say two OR three, because, some persons have not been in Nova Roma
as long as others and may not have three citizens to reflect on....)

I will respond, but I have to tend to some 'macronational affairs' but
I will definitely add to the thread later.

Instead of using each other as a Voodoo doll (not a Roman
ritual!!!),and contraindicated by Aedilian Edicta, let us find the
diamonds in the mine, and take a few minutes to celebrate them.

Actually, I would like to thanks the Aediles for this 'time
out'...let's put it to some 'virtually reflective' use, nonne?



Fides,
Po
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24168 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-28
Subject: Re: New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius
Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius

Congratulations my friend. I am sure you will bring your well know dedication, understanding and competence to this new level of service to the Religio Romana.

Again my congratulations!!


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs

----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com ; NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:36 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] New Pontifex of Nova Roma, Gaius Modius Athanasius


Salvete,

The Collegium Pontificum has just concluded a vote, and has co-opted Flamen
and Augur Gaius Modius Athanasius as a Pontifex of Nova Roma by a vote of 6 to
1.

I hope that the Citizens of Nova Roma will show our new Pontifex all proper
respect, and welcome him into this, his third major office in the Religio
Romana of Nova Roma.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24169 From: Sp. Postumius Tubertus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Congratulations, Caius Modius
Salvete Omnes,

I just re-read the biography Gaius Modius has on the Lacus Magni provincial website (http://www.romanrepublic.org/lacusmagni/magistrates/athanasius.html). In it, he writes:

"Surely I have aspirations within Nova Roma. I would not be a New Roman if I did not have goals, and strivings. I would eventually like to become an Augur, and perhaps a Pontiff. The spiritual realm is my primary concern. However, within the secular sphere I would also like to take steps towards involvement in the political machine of Nova Roma. I am not sure what that will entail, but the future is a bright one indeed."

Well, we do have an Augur out of Gaius Modius, and a Pontifex, as well as a Flamen, very well covering his listed spiritual goals. And, inasmuch as he mentions the "political machine of Nova Roma," we have Gaius Modius, Tribune of the Plebs, as well as Procurator of the Great Province Lacus Magni. In hopes that this will not be the stopping point for our beloved Gaius Modius, I would say that this man has certainly met his stated goals, if not surpassed them.

All that being said, Congratulations, Pontifex, Augur, Flamen, and Tribune Gai Modi Athanasi. As you say above, with you, Gai Modi, "the future is a bright one indeed."

Valete,

Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Citizen of Rome
Retiarius, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24170 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Good question. There are so MANY people within Nova Roma that have influenced me in a positive way. I know I won't be able to list everyone but I will name a few:

Marcus Bianchius Antonius: When I first joined Nova Roma he was a new Propraetor of the Great Province of Lacus Magni. He was looking for legates, I drove to Columbus, Ohio to meet him and I became a Legate shortly after that. He was the first to "give me a chance," for that I am honored.

Marcus Octavius Germanicus: He was the first statewide magistrate I ever had the pleasure of talking to. I met him at a Lacus Magni annual gathering, and his presence was a source of edification to me -- even though I beat both him and Marcus Bianchius at Chess :)

Antonius Gryllus Graecus: He offered me a lot of advice on how to live the Religo, and how to conduct ritual. I am honored that he agreed to assist me when I needed it, especially after I looked like a "know-it-all" on the Religio lists.

I'm sorry...but I cannot limit my list to just three...

Marcus Cassius Iulianus: He helped me get through a rough time last year, on a totally non-Nova Roma related event. I needed someone to talk too, and I am glad he was there.

Diana Octavia Aventina: She helped me suffer through the several run-off elections last year when I ran for Tribune...five times! She also gave me some advice that was very important to me. A good friend.

Quintus Fabius Maximus: For our long AOL chats, and for assisting me in better understanding what it means to be Roman.

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur: If there was anyone within Nova Roma whose respect I wanted to earn it was his. He helped me to learn patience.

Gaius Iulius Scaurus: He helped me to learn that I have a lot more to learn, and his friendship has meant a lot to me.

There are so many others I could mention, but I would like to hear what others have to say.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:46:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pompeia_minucia_tiberia@... writes:

My question is this: What two or three citizens of Nova Roma have most impacted your involvement here in NR in a positive way....and would you expand in a sentence or two,as why that is?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24171 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - regarding the College's vote
Salve,

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

>In the voting for Faustus the two assenting votes were from
>Marcus Cassius and Gaius Iulius.
>
>

Actually there were three - I was an assenting vote as well.


>Valete
>Q. Fabius Maximus
>Pontifice
>
>
Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24172 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii and the Ambarvalia
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii and the Ambarvalia; the day is
comitialis. The Ambarvalia is the ritual purification of the fields and
connected with such agricultural deities as Ceres, Bacchus, and Mars.
Field boundaries were purified by a procession of sacrificial animals,
the suovetaurilia. It was both a public and a private caerimonia. The
principal source for the private caerimonia is Cato's _De agricultura_.
The Souvetaurilia was a procession of a pig, sheep, and ox which were
led around the bounds by the property owner. After a prefatory libation
to Ianus and Iuppiter the animals and smelt cakes were sacrificed to
Mars. Auspicia oblativa were then observed and, if unfavourable, the
sacrifice was repeated. The sacrifice was followed by a festival to
Mars, Ceres, and Bacchus during which all work was suspended and no
ill-omened word was to be uttered. The caerimonia of the Religio
Publica was conducted by the Fratres Arvales.

Tomorrow is ante diem III Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24173 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: ATTENTION ALL CITIZENS: AEDILICIAN EDICTUM
EDICTUM DE FERIA AMBARVALIA

Whereas the Constitution of Nova Roma empowers the Aediles Curules:
IV.A.4.a. To hold Imperium; and
IV.A.4.b To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to see to the conduct
of public games and other festivals and gatherings, to ensure order at
public religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public
facilities that the State should acquire, and to administer the law
(such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others),

Therefore, we, G. Iulius Scaurus, Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et
Pontifex, and M. Iulius Perusianus, Aedilis Curulis, decree and command:

I. The Ambarvalia shall be observed in accordance with mos maiorum on
ante diem IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May);

II. In accordance with the mos maiorum the utterance of words of
ill-omen are forbidden on the Ambarvalia;

III. No citizen shall utter words of ill-omen, including words of
harshness or disrepect to any other citizen, in any public venue of Nova
Roma from 0:00 hours Roman time to 24:00 hours Roman time on ante diem
IV Kalendae Iunii (29 May), the period of the Ambarvalia;

IV. The utterance of words of ill-omen on the Ambarvalia shall
constitute public disrespect for the Gods of Rome;

V. Any citizen who violates this edictum shall be cited before the
Collegium Pontificum by the Aediles Curules for invocation of the
Blasphemy Decretum, to wit, for violation of article III thereof:
"No Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public disrespect for
the Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the Religio
Romana no matter what their personal beliefs."

VI. This edictum does not constitute list moderation reserved to the
imperium of the praetores but rather facilitation of the conduct of a
public festival and to ensure order at a religious event.

VII. This edictum takes effect immediately.

Given on ante diem VII Kalendae Iunii in the consulship of Cn. Salix
Astur and Gn. Equitius Marinus.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex

M. Iulius Perusianus
Aedilis Curulis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24174 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: (no subject)
G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

salvete omnes,

" ...At neque Rumorem audivit, neque clamorum, neque plangorem, sed
aliquid LAETI, aliquid amabile, aliquid jucundi aliqui LAETABILE.
Mirabile dictu! Omnes, ad unum, maiores minoresque, senes
iuvinesque, donis, muneribus, apopheretis ablatis, canunt, cantant,
psallunt, cantillant! Hoc aenigma secum reputabat, considerabat,
ponderabat, ut quasi quendam Gordium nodum solveret.
'Quaeso, quomodo fieri potuit ut dolis meis contemptis dies festus
advenerit? Apophoreta omnia abstuli: ne tegumenta quidem reliqui.
At Laetuli laetantur! Quare? Non itellego! Fortasse...Laetitia diei
festi ex ipsis muneribus non proficiscitur; fortasse Laetitia diei
festi non es res empticia, non es res quaestuosa!' "
--- (with thanks to Dr. Seuss)

Feste Ambarvalia, omnes!

valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24175 From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Witness to the Appointment of Gais Modius Athanasius as Pontiff
I, Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens, as a member of the Comitia Curiata
am most pleased to recognize the appointment of Gaius Modius Athanasius
as a Pontiff of Nova Romain accordance withthe announcement of the
Hnored Pontifex Maximus of Nova Roma.

Further, I am saddened to recognize that by majority of the Collegium
Pontificum, "Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta" hs been officially removed from
her appointmentas Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae, and that she is banned
in perpetuity fom ever holding another religios office in Nova Roma.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens
Lictor;
Senator;
ProConsul;
Curator Differum


Wishing you all the best, with Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24176 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: [ComitiaCuriata] Comitia Curiata convened - May 2004
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete.

As a lictor of the Comitia Curiata I witness the appointment of Gaius
Modius Athansius as a Pontifex Novae Romae.

As a lictor of the Comitia Curiata I witness that Spuria Fabia Vera
Fausta has been officially removed from her position as Sacerdos Matris
Deorum Magnae, and that she is banned in perpetuity from ever holding
another religious office in Nova Roma.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Lictor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24177 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Congratulations Gaius Modius!
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Gai Modi Athansi et Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete!

I would like to congratulate Gaius Modius Athansius on his acceptance
into the Collegium Pontifum. He has been a tireless worker on behalf of
NR and the Religio for as long as I have had the honor to know him, and
I look forward to working with him as a collegue. Congratulations mi amice!

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24178 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - regarding the College's vote
In a message dated 5/29/04 3:50:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
c.minucius.hadrianus@... writes:

> Actually there were three - I was an assenting vote as well.
>
Salvete
You are correct. I missed that. My apologies to Caius Minucius.

Change the tally accordingly.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24179 From: Stefn_Ullarsson Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Witnessing of Pontifical Announcements
Avete Omnes;

As a lictor of Nova Roma I, Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus do by these
words give witness to the appointment of Gaius Modius Athansius as a Pontiff of
Nova Roma.

I hereby also recognize that, by majority Decree of the Pontifical College,
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta has been officially removed from her appointment as
Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae, and that she is banned in perpetuity from ever
holding another religious office in Nova Roma.

As I am not enrolled on the Religio Romana list, would another Lictor please
forward this message thereto?

=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Lictor

"Without the sword, the law is only words." - Cicero
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24180 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: The Ambarvalia
G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

Salvete omnes,

Wow, the list is quiet! Is everyone terrified of saying anything
that might be construed as "ill-omened"? Or it could just be the
holiday weekend, at least here in the U.S. Zoinks!

valete bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24181 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <mlcinnyc@...>

> Wow, the list is quiet! Is everyone terrified of saying anything
> that might be construed as "ill-omened"?

Well I have to say I, for one, have thoroughly enjoyed the Ambervalia.
I've paid more particular attention to my daily rites.and I've made a
conscious effort to ensure I spoke no ill-omened words, not only on list but
in real life as well. I don't see the point in doing one but not the other.

I've had a particularly stressful day with five sqaubbling teenagers, yet,
by stopping to think every time I went to open my mouth, I'm convinced I got
through it a lot easier than I would normally have expected. It's ben a
really salutary experience.

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24182 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia
Salvete,

A little of both for me. Who can know what is truly an ill-omened
word?
But also the spirit of Ambarvalia is here too. Even a complaint
about my bird (attracts other birds when outside) was deftly side-
stepped with nice words.

Happy Holiday!

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Wow, the list is quiet! Is everyone terrified of saying anything
> that might be construed as "ill-omened"? Or it could just be the
> holiday weekend, at least here in the U.S. Zoinks!
>
> valete bene,
>
> Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24183 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-29
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia / people of positive influence
Salvete Cato,

I doubt it. Personally I had a lot of projects to get done this
weekend and many Canadians will be involved with all the festivities
of the Stanley Cup hockey finals. It is certainly good and a
pleasant surprise to discover this day of reflection and to curb the
tongue of bad words and ill-omens; very much like a retreat in my
opinion.

Like Modius, I feel there are so many people in NR who have had a
positive infuence and these relationships seem to evolve or develop
all the time. They have helped me learn a great deal and guide me in
the right direction. I would rather abstain from picking a top 3
favourite since each person is unique and relates to me in his or
her individual way.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Wow, the list is quiet! Is everyone terrified of saying
anything
> > that might be construed as "ill-omened"? Or it could just be
the
> > holiday weekend, at least here in the U.S. Zoinks!
> >
> > valete bene,
> >
> > Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24184 From: sacro_barese_impero@libero.it Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Hi
Please have a look at the attached file.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24185 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: The Ambarvalia / people of positive influence
---Salvete Lani et Omnes;

Plus, in the U.S. its Memorial Day weekend, with alot of people 'away'
from their usual computer access, and probably enjoying their time off
with family, etc.

As for the Stanley Cup, well, this Canadian has been so busy this
weekend with this and that...(and its not over, said weekend...uggh)
that I haven't had time to dwell on that either. I don't even know
who won last night...alas. Would be nice to see the Flames pull this
one off..it's been a while since the Cup was in the Land of the
Canukians, no? But I won't have a tantrum if they don't win....I
promise :)

Po




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete Cato,
>
> I doubt it. Personally I had a lot of projects to get done this
> weekend and many Canadians will be involved with all the festivities
> of the Stanley Cup hockey finals. It is certainly good and a
> pleasant surprise to discover this day of reflection and to curb the
> tongue of bad words and ill-omens; very much like a retreat in my
> opinion.
>
> Like Modius, I feel there are so many people in NR who have had a
> positive infuence and these relationships seem to evolve or develop
> all the time. They have helped me learn a great deal and guide me in
> the right direction. I would rather abstain from picking a top 3
> favourite since each person is unique and relates to me in his or
> her individual way.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > > G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > Wow, the list is quiet! Is everyone terrified of saying
> anything
> > > that might be construed as "ill-omened"? Or it could just be
> the
> > > holiday weekend, at least here in the U.S. Zoinks!
> > >
> > > valete bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24186 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Salvete Modius et Omnes:



You write "There are so MANY people in Nova Roma that have influenced
me in a positive way"...

Isn't this the truth...actually I should have worded the question in a
less awkward way. From my perspective, after thinking about it,
"most" citizens I have encountered have influenced me in a positive
way...oh, some more than others, by virtue of closer association,
having more in common, etc...in fact, the ones whom I have had notably
consistent negative experiences with, I'd say total an estimated one
dozen or less, since 2000...that's not bad, considering we've had over
2000 or so people as citizens at one point or another.

I just didn't want people feeling they had to 'bite their tongues' all
weekend, worrying about whether which topic was illomened and which
was not...particularily new subscribers/citizens.

I figured we can 'all' find something good to say about others, and
such can hardly be considered illfated no?

Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24187 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: ante diem III Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem III Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is pridie Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24188 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Salve Pompeia,

I guess even people that give you a negative experience still help
to make you think, re-evaluate ideas and entertain great mental
gymnastics. It is very difficult to access people from cyberspace
and hopefully we can all meet in person, both friend and foe in the
near future.

One statement I always have found annoying is the one that says
you'll never get a chance to make a first impression or how important
it is that you will be judged on your first encounter or interview.
There is an old Klingon proverb from Star Trek that says trust is
something that is earned, not readily given. Often in life people I
initially disliked or made an initial negative impression eventually
turned out to be good close friends and others who gave me a great
initial impression and more or less an instant friendship turned out
to be a disappointment or let me down when they were needed the most.
As any marriage councilor will tell you, it takes 6 months to a year
to "really" get to know a person; at that point the real werewolf
starts clawing his or her way out of the closet.

Well perhaps we could all keep these things in mind when we deal
with one another in NR.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus









--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Modius et Omnes:
>
>
>
> You write "There are so MANY people in Nova Roma that have
influenced
> me in a positive way"...
>
> Isn't this the truth...actually I should have worded the question
in a
> less awkward way. From my perspective, after thinking about it,
> "most" citizens I have encountered have influenced me in a positive
> way...oh, some more than others, by virtue of closer association,
> having more in common, etc...in fact, the ones whom I have had
notably
> consistent negative experiences with, I'd say total an estimated
one
> dozen or less, since 2000...that's not bad, considering we've had
over
> 2000 or so people as citizens at one point or another.
>
> I just didn't want people feeling they had to 'bite their tongues'
all
> weekend, worrying about whether which topic was illomened and which
> was not...particularily new subscribers/citizens.
>
> I figured we can 'all' find something good to say about others, and
> such can hardly be considered illfated no?
>
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24189 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: And that is the end of Free Speech
Avete omnes;
whatever you may think of my religioous dismissal, I am more
concerned that the announcement was timed to the Ambarvalia with its
edict of silence, at least for the American cives who are 5-7 hrs
behind Roman time
To me, considering also the blasphemy laws, plus the fact I had no
trial or even knowledge that I was accused, or chance to dispute the
charge unlike the Vestal Postumia (additionally historically the
foreign priests of Magna Mater were under the charge of the Decemviri
& Quindecemviri, never the CP) I am concerned that everyone's rights
especially that of free speech are to be eroded under a type of
theocracy that never existed in Ancient Rome.
If you think I am wrong please say so, but with the Collegium
Pontificium filled with Boni, the using of the Calendar, Fuscus's
discussion of law bringing talk of treason and blaspemy I am
concerned.
valete omnes
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta,
stripped of her priesthood without a trial or appeal.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24190 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pries
--- In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera"
<rory12001@y...> wrote:
--- In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> By a vote of 6 to 1 (myself being the dissenting vote), the
Collegium
> Pontificum has voted to strip Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta of her
position as Sacerdos
> Matris Deorum Magnae, and to ban her from ever holding another
religious office in
> Nova Roma.
>
Salvete omnes; Stripped of my priesthood with no warning, no trial
(as the vestal virgin Postumia had) and no appeal.
1. And this act by the CP is unhistorical
the 'foreign' priesthood of Magna Mater in Republican times was
supervised by the Decemviri, never the Collegium Pontificium.

2. Though the cult of Magna Mater was very important to Roma; the
priests & priestesses had a very louche reputation; for immorality &
drinking and all kinds of going on. It was no body's business but
their own, and they never historically were punished for any of this.

3. Vestals have rules of decorum not foreign priests the CP has no
right whatsoever to meddle in Magna Mater's cult.

4. Finally I have no desire to be subservient to the Collegium
Ponitificim which is entirely MALE. There is not one Female
Pontifex. If they want to create a new Taliban theocracy they can do
it without me.

5. Just call me a free Bacchante! IO!
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, who loves the gods and her freedom
--- End forwarded message ---
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24191 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Pries
Now that's a SEXIST remark.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...> wrote:

> 4. Finally I have no desire to be subservient to the Collegium
> Ponitificim which is entirely MALE. There is not one Female
> Pontifex. If they want to create a new Taliban theocracy they can do
> it without me.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24192 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
The Timing of the vote and of the anouncement were selected by the
Pontifex Maximus, who supported you, so your Conspiracy Theory
regarding the Ambarvalia dosen't hold water.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Avete omnes;
> whatever you may think of my religioous dismissal, I am more
> concerned that the announcement was timed to the Ambarvalia with its
> edict of silence, at least for the American cives who are 5-7 hrs
> behind Roman time
> To me, considering also the blasphemy laws, plus the fact I had no
> trial or even knowledge that I was accused, or chance to dispute the
> charge unlike the Vestal Postumia (additionally historically the
> foreign priests of Magna Mater were under the charge of the Decemviri
> & Quindecemviri, never the CP) I am concerned that everyone's rights
> especially that of free speech are to be eroded under a type of
> theocracy that never existed in Ancient Rome.
> If you think I am wrong please say so, but with the Collegium
> Pontificium filled with Boni, the using of the Calendar, Fuscus's
> discussion of law bringing talk of treason and blaspemy I am
> concerned.
> valete omnes
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta,
> stripped of her priesthood without a trial or appeal.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24193 From: FAC Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: my infected message
Salvete Omnes,
I noted a couple of minutes ago that this list received a my message
with an attachment infected by virus. Please, sorry for the unwanted
problem, I'm scanning my hard disk and clean my mail browser to
avoid other infected messages.

Please, don't open my message with subject "Re: Hi". It's infected!

I invite you all to check your mailboxes too because I'm receiving
several message with virus from many of you. Thank you

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24194 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Salve Senator;
I don't see any remarks logical or pertinant to the fact that the
Quirites are now threatened with the Blasphemy or treason decree if
they don't toe the line as to what is acceptable according to the CP.
Nova Roma & the Qurites are now hostages to the Collegium
Pontificium; people we never even voted for.
vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, no slave
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24195 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
No need for hysteria. I don't see mass charges of blasphemy or
treason looming against the citizens of Nova Roma. A certain
priestess who made a mockery of the religio, and saw no reason to
apologize, was stripped of her priesthood. A perfectly normal
reaction by the college, acting within its specific area of
authority, to maintain discipline among those chosen to serve as
priests in Nova Roma.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> Salve Senator;
> I don't see any remarks logical or pertinant to the fact that the
> Quirites are now threatened with the Blasphemy or treason decree if
> they don't toe the line as to what is acceptable according to the
CP.
> Nova Roma & the Qurites are now hostages to the
Collegium
> Pontificium; people we never even voted for.
> vale
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, no slave
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24196 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit

You have no one to blame but yourself, for your removal as sacerdos. You
have again shown to the people of Nova Roma why you were removed; your comments
on this list. Now we see comments insinuating the Collegium Pontificum is akin
to the Taliban, and that citizens of Nova Roma are hostages of the Collegium.
These comments are offensive, and it was comments like these that resulted
in your removal. Additionally, there are several pontifices within Nova Roma
who are veterans of the US Military, and for you to make a correlation between
these men -- including myself who am a veteran of the first Gulf War -- and
the Islamic militants known as the Taliban is a major insult.

You don't have to agree with the pontifices, as we do not always agree on
everything within the Collegium. However, the priests of Nova Roma should at
least possess a degree of respect for one another. You failed in this.

The Collegium Pontificum does not intend to "hold Nova Roma" captive. I do
however, understand what you are trying to do; "rally the citizens to your side
against the supposed tyranny of the Collegium Pontificum." I'm sorry to
disappoint you, but your accusations against the Collegium Pontificum only further
lowers your dignity.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Pontifex

In a message dated 5/30/2004 9:11:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:
Salve Senator;
I don't see any remarks logical or pertinant to the fact that the
Quirites are now threatened with the Blasphemy or treason decree if
they don't toe the line as to what is acceptable according to the CP.
Nova Roma & the Qurites are now hostages to the Collegium
Pontificium; people we never even voted for.
vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, no slave


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24197 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-05-30
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
outstanding refrains! bravo!
--- mjk@... <mjk@...> wrote:
> Salve Pompeia,
>
> I guess even people that give you a negative
experience still help
> to make you think, re-evaluate ideas and entertain
great mental
> gymnastics. It is very difficult to access people
from cyberspace
> and hopefully we can all meet in person, both friend
and foe in the
> near future.
>
> One statement I always have found annoying is the
one that says
> you'll never get a chance to make a first impression
or how important
> it is that you will be judged on your first
encounter or interview.
> There is an old Klingon proverb from Star Trek that
says trust is
> something that is earned, not readily given. Often
in life people I
> initially disliked or made an initial negative
impression eventually
> turned out to be good close friends and others who
gave me a great
> initial impression and more or less an instant
friendship turned out
> to be a disappointment or let me down when they were
needed the most.
> As any marriage councilor will tell you, it takes 6
months to a year
> to "really" get to know a person; at that point the
real werewolf
> starts clawing his or her way out of the closet.
>
> Well perhaps we could all keep these things in mind
when we deal
> with one another in NR.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
"pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
> <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete Modius et Omnes:
> >
> >
> >
> > You write "There are so MANY people in Nova Roma
that have
> influenced
> > me in a positive way"...
> >
> > Isn't this the truth...actually I should have
worded the question
> in a
> > less awkward way. From my perspective, after
thinking about it,
> > "most" citizens I have encountered have influenced
me in a positive
> > way...oh, some more than others, by virtue of
closer association,
> > having more in common, etc...in fact, the ones
whom I have had
> notably
> > consistent negative experiences with, I'd say
total an estimated
> one
> > dozen or less, since 2000...that's not bad,
considering we've had
> over
> > 2000 or so people as citizens at one point or
another.
> >
> > I just didn't want people feeling they had to
'bite their tongues'
> all
> > weekend, worrying about whether which topic was
illomened and which
> > was not...particularily new subscribers/citizens.
> >
> > I figured we can 'all' find something good to say
about others, and
> > such can hardly be considered illfated no?
> >
> > Pompeia
>


=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen






__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24198 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Reflections
Salvete omnes!

I noticed over the last few months that a few of our citizens
suddenly had to leave NR or at least their offices stating that
family matters came first ant that was that! I had thought that
perhaps they were looking for more or less of a copout and on a few
posts I voiced my displeasure. Now with my tail between my legs, I
have to rescind my comments since I got a taste of what could happen!

The other night with my wife nearbye (who isn't much into computers
yet), I went to yahoo groups in order to check on the corrections to
our Latin assignment from G. Iuli Scaurus whence up jumped a popup
of a veluptious young wench, peddling her webcam ass saying what a
living god I was without even addressing me by my name! I get 50 of
those things a day like the rest of you! My wife immediately thought
I had been corresponding with this lady and she certainly read me
the riot act! I had to whine and plead with her that NR is my
interest and besides with these young girls, grey hair and acne
don't mix. In time I gave her a tour of NR, my projects and
assignments and now all is well again! Unfortunately, given the same
circumstances, other citizens were, perhaps, not so fortunate.
Apparently, computers are starting to cause more marriage breakups
than misstresses!

In conclusion, Quintus sends his apologies to those I may have
misjudged!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24199 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> Salve Senator;

Salve Vera,

> I don't see any remarks logical or pertinant to the fact that the
> Quirites are now threatened with the Blasphemy or treason decree if
> they don't toe the line as to what is acceptable according to the
>CP.


The blasphemy or treason decree has nothing to do with you being
stripped of your priesthood. The college found you unfit to be a
priestess, plain and simple. It is a legal power of the College in
Nova Roma. You are I believe the first person to be stripped of a
priesthood in Nova Roma. A distinction without honor.

> Nova Roma & the Qurites are now hostages to the
>Collegium Pontificium; people we never even voted for.
> vale
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, no slave

Vera, try to maintain a shred of your remaining dignity. All we have
heard from you is "evil them" and "poor Vera." Stop trying to blame
someone else and try a little self-examination as to where your fault
might lie. You say you are a believer in Karma. Well, perhaps these
are your actions coming back to you Karmically.

Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24200 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
> These comments are offensive, and it was comments like these that
resulted
> in your removal. >
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Pontifex
>
>
>
> As I said Pontifex, historically the priests and priestess of Magna
Mater engaged in pretty offensive behavior, it is none of your
business as a member of the Collegium Pontificium to interfere in my
cultus.
Why is the Collegium Pontificium behaving in a non-
historical manner defying the Mos!

1. you did not explain why you think you have jurisdiction over me

2. why I was not informed and given the opportunity to defend myself
against the charge.

3, what the nature of the charge is 'offensive comments' are spouted
all over NR by many, even pontifeces but why am I punished?

4. Using the threat of blasphemy to enforce behavior during the
Ambarvalia is repugnant & UnRoman.

answer these question please,
vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, denied her rights, subject to secret trial
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24201 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Perhaps you remember applying to the collegium pontificium to become
a priestess? The same body that had the authority to approve your
application also had the authority to revoke it. If you hadn't
submitted to the authority collegium in the first place, it would
have had no authority over you. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > These comments are offensive, and it was comments like these
that
> resulted
> > in your removal. >
> > Valete;
> >
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> > Pontifex
> >
> >
> >
> > As I said Pontifex, historically the priests and priestess of
Magna
> Mater engaged in pretty offensive behavior, it is none of your
> business as a member of the Collegium Pontificium to interfere in
my
> cultus.
> Why is the Collegium Pontificium behaving in a non-
> historical manner defying the Mos!
>
> 1. you did not explain why you think you have jurisdiction over me
>
> 2. why I was not informed and given the opportunity to defend
myself
> against the charge.
>
> 3, what the nature of the charge is 'offensive comments' are
spouted
> all over NR by many, even pontifeces but why am I punished?
>
> 4. Using the threat of blasphemy to enforce behavior during the
> Ambarvalia is repugnant & UnRoman.
>
> answer these question please,
> vale
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, denied her rights, subject to secret
trial
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24202 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
G. Equitius Cato A. Artoro Iuliano quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve Artorus,

A couple of questions, and *not* intended to start a flame war, but
simply out of curiosity:

I understand that the College did indeed license Fabia in her
priesthood, and, by extrapolation, may have the right to revoke it.

The first question is: were there indeed specific charges laid
against Fabia, and was she given a chance to receive intelligence
regarding those charges and therefore given a chance to defend
herself?

I'm not suggesting that it need be done in public, but it does seem a
little...unfortunate...if charges can be laid secretly and a verdict
decided before a defense can be raised. Charges of impiety, or
blasphemy, in the Republic were given public hearing (I'm thinking
specifically about the trial of Publius Clodius for dressing up like
a flute girl and infiltrating the festival of the Good Goddess in 62
B.C.E. - a more horrific violation of the religio is hard to
imagine), with proper prosecution and defense (amazingly, Clodius was
acquitted --- apparently a *lot* of money changed hands).

The second question is: does the cult of the Magna Mater indeed fall
under the auspices of the College of Pontiffs?

The third question is: does the College of Pontiffs have authority
over the private practices of any of the cults represented in Nova
Roma *outside* the religio proper (i.e., Isis, Serapis, etc.)once
their priesthoods have been licensed through the application process?

I'd like simply to clear the air as much as possible so this does not
haunt us interminably; to do this, it may behoove the College simply
to answer the questions surrounding Fabia's dismissal clearly and
with support from our legal documents.

vale bene,

Cato




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
<artorus@a...> wrote:
> Perhaps you remember applying to the collegium pontificium to
become
> a priestess? The same body that had the authority to approve your
> application also had the authority to revoke it. If you hadn't
> submitted to the authority collegium in the first place, it would
> have had no authority over you. Why is that such a difficult
concept?
>
> Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
> wrote:
> > > These comments are offensive, and it was comments like these
> that
> > resulted
> > > in your removal. >
> > > Valete;
> > >
> > > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> > > Pontifex
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As I said Pontifex, historically the priests and priestess of
> Magna
> > Mater engaged in pretty offensive behavior, it is none of your
> > business as a member of the Collegium Pontificium to interfere in
> my
> > cultus.
> > Why is the Collegium Pontificium behaving in a non-
> > historical manner defying the Mos!
> >
> > 1. you did not explain why you think you have jurisdiction over
me
> >
> > 2. why I was not informed and given the opportunity to defend
> myself
> > against the charge.
> >
> > 3, what the nature of the charge is 'offensive comments' are
> spouted
> > all over NR by many, even pontifeces but why am I punished?
> >
> > 4. Using the threat of blasphemy to enforce behavior during the
> > Ambarvalia is repugnant & UnRoman.
> >
> > answer these question please,
> > vale
> > Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, denied her rights, subject to secret
> trial
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24203 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Salve Cato,

I also hope that the collegium will address these points. I think you
will understand if I do not, as I do not have a vote there and can
scarcely be considered an official spokesperson. My interest in this
issue is very narrowly focused -- I was offended by Fabia Vera's
remarks, I told her almost immediately that I was offended, and she
never deigned to reply. Beyond any personal apology she might owe to
Scaurus, I continue to believe that she owes an apology to all
citizens. That she is apparently unrepentent leads me to believe that
she simply does not take the religio seriously.

C. Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato A. Artoro Iuliano quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Salve Artorus,
>
> A couple of questions, and *not* intended to start a flame war, but
> simply out of curiosity:
>
> I understand that the College did indeed license Fabia in her
> priesthood, and, by extrapolation, may have the right to revoke
it.
>
> The first question is: were there indeed specific charges laid
> against Fabia, and was she given a chance to receive intelligence
> regarding those charges and therefore given a chance to defend
> herself?
>
> I'm not suggesting that it need be done in public, but it does seem
a
> little...unfortunate...if charges can be laid secretly and a
verdict
> decided before a defense can be raised. Charges of impiety, or
> blasphemy, in the Republic were given public hearing (I'm thinking
> specifically about the trial of Publius Clodius for dressing up
like
> a flute girl and infiltrating the festival of the Good Goddess in
62
> B.C.E. - a more horrific violation of the religio is hard to
> imagine), with proper prosecution and defense (amazingly, Clodius
was
> acquitted --- apparently a *lot* of money changed hands).
>
> The second question is: does the cult of the Magna Mater indeed
fall
> under the auspices of the College of Pontiffs?
>
> The third question is: does the College of Pontiffs have authority
> over the private practices of any of the cults represented in Nova
> Roma *outside* the religio proper (i.e., Isis, Serapis, etc.)once
> their priesthoods have been licensed through the application
process?
>
> I'd like simply to clear the air as much as possible so this does
not
> haunt us interminably; to do this, it may behoove the College
simply
> to answer the questions surrounding Fabia's dismissal clearly and
> with support from our legal documents.
>
> vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
> <artorus@a...> wrote:
> > Perhaps you remember applying to the collegium pontificium to
> become
> > a priestess? The same body that had the authority to approve your
> > application also had the authority to revoke it. If you hadn't
> > submitted to the authority collegium in the first place, it would
> > have had no authority over you. Why is that such a difficult
> concept?
> >
> > Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera"
<rory12001@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > These comments are offensive, and it was comments like these
> > that
> > > resulted
> > > > in your removal. >
> > > > Valete;
> > > >
> > > > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> > > > Pontifex
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As I said Pontifex, historically the priests and priestess of
> > Magna
> > > Mater engaged in pretty offensive behavior, it is none of your
> > > business as a member of the Collegium Pontificium to interfere
in
> > my
> > > cultus.
> > > Why is the Collegium Pontificium behaving in a non-
> > > historical manner defying the Mos!
> > >
> > > 1. you did not explain why you think you have jurisdiction
over
> me
> > >
> > > 2. why I was not informed and given the opportunity to defend
> > myself
> > > against the charge.
> > >
> > > 3, what the nature of the charge is 'offensive comments' are
> > spouted
> > > all over NR by many, even pontifeces but why am I punished?
> > >
> > > 4. Using the threat of blasphemy to enforce behavior during the
> > > Ambarvalia is repugnant & UnRoman.
> > >
> > > answer these question please,
> > > vale
> > > Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta, denied her rights, subject to
secret
> > trial
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24204 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Salvete omnes et C. Ambrosi,

I cannot see where there is a connection between a beef between
civis, or even serious disagreement with regards to the religio, and
not taking the religio seriously.
If the reconstruction of the religio is being taken seriously, and
the methods of how are of vital importance to those in charge of
reconstructing, then I would expect equally serious disagreements to
occur. Should they occur on the ML? No, by no means. However, if you
equate the ML with a public street, and it is for us, then how many
arguments about religion spilled out onto RA's streets or public
venues?
While I never support such nastiness as goes on in the ML, I don't
see how there is any connection between not being serious and
seriously disagreeing about the specifics of the religio. Quite the
reverse.
Whether or not she owes a public apology to anyone else isn't the
point here, what is personal should not affect the holding of an
office and most certainly the way in which she was removed has
raised questions in the minds of some (perhaps many who fear to
speak?).
No one should faint from surprise, but I echo Cato's request for
the answers outlined in his post.

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
<artorus@a...> wrote:
> Salve Cato,
>
> I also hope that the collegium will address these points. I think
you
> will understand if I do not, as I do not have a vote there and can
> scarcely be considered an official spokesperson. My interest in
this
> issue is very narrowly focused -- I was offended by Fabia Vera's
> remarks, I told her almost immediately that I was offended, and
she
> never deigned to reply. Beyond any personal apology she might owe
to
> Scaurus, I continue to believe that she owes an apology to all
> citizens. That she is apparently unrepentent leads me to believe
that
> she simply does not take the religio seriously.
>
> C. Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24205 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Salvete Spuria Fabia Vera and fellow citizens,

First, there are others, as evidenced by some of the responses, that
also find your dismissal irregular. While there is no requirement,
and probably shouldn't be, that requires the CP to pass their
decisions through the populace, the removal of one of their own so
soon after appointment raises questions.

Primarily, it raises the question as to how well they explained or
advised you on any restrictions before appointing you, or how well
their decision making process is defined when appointing a sacredos
such as yourself.

In addition, the method by which you were removed raises significant
questions about their methods and the rights of those who might be
accused of some unpardonable offense in their eyes. No defense,
notification or warning of removal? This, at least to me, seems far
too close to arbitrary to be comfortable.

So..you'll hear no argument from me that dissents your
dissatisfaction regarding the dismissal itself.

That said, I don't see how the timing is a factor. The edict itself
raises questions in my eyes, however I do not think it was made
specifically to stifle comment on your situation. Rather, I would be
more likely to consider it 'authority creep' than conspiracy.

Lastly, free speech is something different here than on a corner in
NYC. It is stifled by virtue of our mutually agreed upon rules. As
has so recently been pointed out, lawsuits can be brought and
blasphemy is prosecutable. I do not think we ever had free speech,
however I do think that we must guard most carefully against
encroachments on our abilities to speak that are unreasonable.

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> Avete omnes;
> whatever you may think of my religioous dismissal, I am more
> concerned that the announcement was timed to the Ambarvalia with
its
> edict of silence, at least for the American cives who are 5-7 hrs
> behind Roman time
> To me, considering also the blasphemy laws, plus the fact I had
no
> trial or even knowledge that I was accused, or chance to dispute
the
> charge unlike the Vestal Postumia (additionally historically the
> foreign priests of Magna Mater were under the charge of the
Decemviri
> & Quindecemviri, never the CP) I am concerned that everyone's
rights
> especially that of free speech are to be eroded under a type of
> theocracy that never existed in Ancient Rome.
> If you think I am wrong please say so, but with the Collegium
> Pontificium filled with Boni, the using of the Calendar, Fuscus's
> discussion of law bringing talk of treason and blaspemy I am
> concerned.
> valete omnes
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta,
> stripped of her priesthood without a trial or appeal.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24206 From: Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Salve,

I appreciate your point of view, and if this were a simple
disagreement between citizens, however heated, I would agree with
you. No doubt I missed many pieces of the argument, but what I saw
happen was that there was a very heated debate over the subject of
animal sacrifice. The way I see it, reasonable minds can differ, so I
didn't pay much attention until Fabia Vera suggested that Scaurus, a
pontifex, be sacrificed. In retrospect, I have to believe she was
joking, but she was quite defiant that she owed no apologies to
anyone for her remark. It's that remark and her brazen attitude that
makes a mockery of the religio and leads me to the conclusion that
she doesn't take the religio seriously. So, you see, it's not a
matter of disagreeing about the fine points of religious practice.

And now, I am out of energy for this argument and the general turmoil
here. I'm going to sign off for a bit and see if I can get back some
of my enthusiasm for romanitas.

Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes et C. Ambrosi,
>
> I cannot see where there is a connection between a beef between
> civis, or even serious disagreement with regards to the religio,
and
> not taking the religio seriously.
> If the reconstruction of the religio is being taken seriously,
and
> the methods of how are of vital importance to those in charge of
> reconstructing, then I would expect equally serious disagreements
to
> occur. Should they occur on the ML? No, by no means. However, if
you
> equate the ML with a public street, and it is for us, then how many
> arguments about religion spilled out onto RA's streets or public
> venues?
> While I never support such nastiness as goes on in the ML, I
don't
> see how there is any connection between not being serious and
> seriously disagreeing about the specifics of the religio. Quite the
> reverse.
> Whether or not she owes a public apology to anyone else isn't the
> point here, what is personal should not affect the holding of an
> office and most certainly the way in which she was removed has
> raised questions in the minds of some (perhaps many who fear to
> speak?).
> No one should faint from surprise, but I echo Cato's request for
> the answers outlined in his post.
>
> Valete,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
> <artorus@a...> wrote:
> > Salve Cato,
> >
> > I also hope that the collegium will address these points. I think
> you
> > will understand if I do not, as I do not have a vote there and
can
> > scarcely be considered an official spokesperson. My interest in
> this
> > issue is very narrowly focused -- I was offended by Fabia Vera's
> > remarks, I told her almost immediately that I was offended, and
> she
> > never deigned to reply. Beyond any personal apology she might owe
> to
> > Scaurus, I continue to believe that she owes an apology to all
> > citizens. That she is apparently unrepentent leads me to believe
> that
> > she simply does not take the religio seriously.
> >
> > C. Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24207 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
Salvete Ambrosi and citizens,

I'm very sorry this list is tiring you and hope you renew your
patience during your short absence.

You say that in retrospect you have to believe she was joking. Was
there any question of it? Honestly, is there any single person who
takes that post (which is reposted below only as a memory aid and
not as any sort of endorsement) as a serious suggestion? Did
anyone..anyone..think she meant for us to do it? Is it any different
from a post, shortly afterwards posted, where the suggestion was to
have a dinner party and throw citizens from the rock? Is it any more
serious than suggestions for others to throw themselves from the
rock which have made their way, unpunished, onto the list?

I can't believe that any reasonable person could possibly see that
as a serious suggestion or threat. Bad taste..certainly. Less than
funny..without doubt. A display of bad sportsmanship..it certainly
does look like it. But a serious threat? Hardly.

I have no intention of dragging it out and going through it all
again, but to say that alone is enough to question a person's
devotion to the religio is akin to saying anyone who ever says "go-
da-n" isn't serious about the religion to which that curse most
points to. (I chose that only as a common example that most would
recognize and not as a slur, denigration, statement of worth or any
other negative connotation). A poor choice of humor is not a reason
for doubting religious devotion.

While I am not trying to wind up behind the defense table, such
claims are not viable in my eyes and I simply can't believe I'm the
only one that can see that. I have no problem with someone being
moderated for such inappropriate speech, but it is a long cry to an
assertion that she doesn't believe in the religio, at least as she
sees it, most especially if that directly played into her dismissal.

Disclaimer: This should not be construed as a statement of agreement
or disagreement with any aspect of how to renew the religio or which
path it should take. It relates only to the post and the response to
this post.

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

Below is the re-post of that post which is being referred to:

Quote: "Avete Quirites;
Eheu, here I have been positively embracing Concordia & look what I
spy on the Main List. Though all know my vegetarian animal-loving
views, I believe that the Populus and the Di Immortales will only be
reconciled and appeased by a really big sacrifice;
and I volunteer Scaurus,

bene valete in pace deorum
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta" :End Quote

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
<artorus@a...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I appreciate your point of view, and if this were a simple
> disagreement between citizens, however heated, I would agree with
> you. No doubt I missed many pieces of the argument, but what I saw
> happen was that there was a very heated debate over the subject of
> animal sacrifice. The way I see it, reasonable minds can differ,
so I
> didn't pay much attention until Fabia Vera suggested that Scaurus,
a
> pontifex, be sacrificed. In retrospect, I have to believe she was
> joking, but she was quite defiant that she owed no apologies to
> anyone for her remark. It's that remark and her brazen attitude
that
> makes a mockery of the religio and leads me to the conclusion that
> she doesn't take the religio seriously. So, you see, it's not a
> matter of disagreeing about the fine points of religious practice.
>
> And now, I am out of energy for this argument and the general
turmoil
> here. I'm going to sign off for a bit and see if I can get back
some
> of my enthusiasm for romanitas.
>
> Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes et C. Ambrosi,
> >
> > I cannot see where there is a connection between a beef
between
> > civis, or even serious disagreement with regards to the religio,
> and
> > not taking the religio seriously.
> > If the reconstruction of the religio is being taken seriously,
> and
> > the methods of how are of vital importance to those in charge of
> > reconstructing, then I would expect equally serious
disagreements
> to
> > occur. Should they occur on the ML? No, by no means. However, if
> you
> > equate the ML with a public street, and it is for us, then how
many
> > arguments about religion spilled out onto RA's streets or public
> > venues?
> > While I never support such nastiness as goes on in the ML, I
> don't
> > see how there is any connection between not being serious and
> > seriously disagreeing about the specifics of the religio. Quite
the
> > reverse.
> > Whether or not she owes a public apology to anyone else isn't
the
> > point here, what is personal should not affect the holding of an
> > office and most certainly the way in which she was removed has
> > raised questions in the minds of some (perhaps many who fear to
> > speak?).
> > No one should faint from surprise, but I echo Cato's request
for
> > the answers outlined in his post.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Annia Octavia Indagatrix
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus"
> > <artorus@a...> wrote:
> > > Salve Cato,
> > >
> > > I also hope that the collegium will address these points. I
think
> > you
> > > will understand if I do not, as I do not have a vote there and
> can
> > > scarcely be considered an official spokesperson. My interest
in
> > this
> > > issue is very narrowly focused -- I was offended by Fabia
Vera's
> > > remarks, I told her almost immediately that I was offended,
and
> > she
> > > never deigned to reply. Beyond any personal apology she might
owe
> > to
> > > Scaurus, I continue to believe that she owes an apology to all
> > > citizens. That she is apparently unrepentent leads me to
believe
> > that
> > > she simply does not take the religio seriously.
> > >
> > > C. Ambrosius Artorus Iulianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24208 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
Ave Omnes

So, Fabia Vera was removed, quoting from the decree, because the pontifices
found:

“that by gross disrespect to the Religio Publica Romana, its most sacred
rituals, and its institutions Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta has rendered herself
unfit to perform any priestly function.“

Now the question is: what gross disrespect? And if there was a gross disrespect,
why isnÂ’t Fabia Vera tried for blasphemy?

LetÂ’s try to see what the gross disrespect was, shall we? The first thing that
comes to mind is her proposal of sacrificing a Pontifex. Good, that was
disrespectful joke (because a joke it was), but letÂ’s assume that proposing the
sacrifice of a religious figure is good ground for dismissing someone from a
religious position. But then what shall the Collegium Pontificum do with
pontifex Quintus Fabius Maximus who suggested that Fabia vera should had
sacrified herself and invited her to do so because "Roma" was watching (Message
23071 “It would not be the first time someone sacrificed themselves for Rome's
benefit. She better get on with it then.”)? Or is the suggestion of the
sacrifice of a (at that time still) sacerdos a lesser thing? The answer,
obviously, isÂ… the Collegium will do nothing at all.

Also, IÂ’ve not seen such an outrage when Palladius and Gaius Popillius Laenas
suggested that Fabia Vera should had been sacrificed at ScaurusÂ’s place
(messages 23055 and 23081). If suggesting the sacrifice of a member of the
religious order is gross disrespect of the Religio, shouldnÂ’t them both be
tried for Blasphemy? Or at least publicly censored by the Collegium? But of
course, they shall be not.

On the other hand, one could say (the new Pontifex Athanasios, no less) the
gross disrespect has been not in one episode, but in her general conduct
lacking dignitas ( “You have again shown to the people of Nova Roma why you
were removed; your comments on this list. “) that led to a diminished aura of
sanctity and authority of the members of the Collegium and the religious order
as a whole. But then one should wonder why the Collegium didnÂ’t act:

- when a pontifex called all the non-boni “cocksuckers” inviting them to “kiss
his ass” (sorry for the wording, just quoting… I can’t present the message
numberor an exact quote because someone decided to delete it from the Mailing
list archives together with all the replies that had the pontifexÂ’ original
mail quotedÂ…interesting, isnÂ’t it?), or

- when another pontifex uses regularly expressions so dignified as, just to make
a few examples “a person who's obtuse nature aproaches the level of outright
stupidity“ and “They say Ignorance is Bliss, If this is true you should be in
Nirvana.” Or “a snotty nosed punk like you“ or “your obtuse nature” referred
to G. Equitius Cato (message 23813, 23826 and others) or “Your feelings about
wanting to be a Roman will no more convert you into one than they will convert
you into a poodle dog.” Referred to Moravius Laureatus (message 23815) or
“jibbering jackass” referred to F. Galerius Aurelianus (message 23826) . And
then

- when another pontifex who posts less often than he used to, yet when he does
he can’t refrain from insulting fellow citizens, says things like “(that) tells
me how ignorent (sic!) of Nova Roma history that you are” and invite them to
leave (message 23838).

So, all in all, if it was about the sacrifice comment, then at least another
member of the Collegium should be punished in the same way Fabia was, if it was
for general dignitas over the mailing list, wellÂ… the Collegium should give up
almost half of its members. Of course, Fabia Vera shall be the only one to
pay.. double standards, havenÂ’t we?

Maybe, we should see and consider the decision for what it really is (or at
least for what it sounds from what can be known over the mailing list): not a
religious decision, but a political one. It were not FabiaÂ’s views and acts
about the Religio to collide with the Religio as a whole, but his political
positions in the “civil” matter of NR that collided with the ones of the
majority of the Collegium and consequently Fabia had to go (while all the
others, despite similar behaviors as reported above, can happily stay).

Once recognized as a political decision, we can all rest peacefully and we can
even, maybe, overlook the fact the Pontifices didnÂ’t feel like providing actual
examples, not even ONE, of FabiaÂ’s gross disrespect towards the Religio that
were the ground of their decision. Why didnÂ’t they? Because (as I think) they
were not to be found? Possibly, but I think itÂ’s even easier.. no one even
bothered to look for them as they were un-necessary for a political decision
about Fabia Vera. I think itÂ’s either that or that they didnÂ’t care to show us
the religious grounds of their decision because, as we cives have to just take
the pontifices as they are without any power to check their appointments, their
operate, their being fit for the role, we have to take their decisions without
any explanation or justification, donÂ’t we?

“We found Fabia wanting, period, you have no reason or right to know exactly on
what ground we decided that”. What other courts felt like not giving out any
ground for its sentences, for how pretestuous, incredible and irrational they
could had been? Umm, a few names come to mind, but none related to pleasant
memories. On the countrary, anyone issuing a judgment usually feels compelled,
when sure of its good faith, of making public the reasons the judgment was
based upon and issued, so that everyone can see how rightous and rightly taken
the decision was. I hope the Collegium will realize it and provide us the means
to know and judge their reasons in taking their decisionÂ… as a matter of
respect for the civesÂ’ intelligence, if nothing else.

Vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

PS
I, too, think that the decision and the timing of the decree about the religious
festivity were not part of some kind of plot. On the other side, I think that
discussing of laws and events in genereal while keeping a civil tone, without
name-calling and insults, wouldn't had constitued an "ill-omen" word and thus
would had been perfectly acceptable. Furthermore, I think that it shouldn't be
needed a decree to keep the cives to respect the basic rules of conduct that a
simple education should suggest us all.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24209 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Salvete all,

I would like to add my voice to all those who have congratulated Gaius Modius Athanasius on his
appointment as a Pontiff of Nova Roma!

You deserve this honor Modius!

Valete,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24210 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Reflections
Salve Paulinus,

< My wife immediately thought
<I had been corresponding with this lady and she certainly read me
<the riot act! I had to whine and plead with her that NR is my
<interest and besides with these young girls, grey hair and acne
<don't mix.

You gave me a good laugh with that one! Tell your wife that a female from NR who knows you
reasonably well can vouch for the fact that you are quite a gentleman and that you often mention
her with great affection!

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24211 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XII - Pontifex
Articles on Roman Government - XII - Pontifex


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes only. The text is copyright of its owner.

Pont#301;fex
(gephuropoios). A member of the highest priestly collegium in Rome, to which belonged the superintendence over all sacred observances, whether performed by the State or by private persons. The meaning of the name is uncertain; for the interpretation which follows most obviously from the form of the word, that of “bridge-builder,” referring in particular to the sacred bridge on piles (pons sublicius) over the Tiber (Varro, L. L. v. 83), is open to objection. (See Nettleship, Lectures and Essays, p. 27.) It is probable, however, that the pontifex got his name from the duty assigned him of performing rites for the propitiation of river deities on the building of bridges; for a widespread superstition regarded the spanning of a river by a bridge as in itself insulting to the divinity of the stream. See Pons.

The foundation of the college is ascribed to Numa. At first it probably consisted of six patrician members, with the addition of the king, whose place, after the abolition of the monarchy, was transferred to the Pontifex Maximus; from B.C. 300 it was composed of nine members (four patrician and five plebeian), from the time of Sulla of fifteen (seven patrician and eight plebeian); Caesar added another member; and the emperors also raised the number at their pleasure. The office was for life, as was also that of the president. While, in the time of the monarchy, the pontiffs were probably named by the king, under the Republic the college for a long time filled up its own numbers by coöptation, and also appointed the high-pontiff from among its members. From somewhere about B.C. 250 the election of the latter took place in the Comitia Tributa under the presidency of a pontiff, and, from B.C. 103, the other members were also elected in the Comitia out of a fixed number of candidates
presented by the college. Under the Empire a preliminary election was held by the Senate, and merely confirmed by the Comitia.

Besides the pontiffs proper, there were also included in the college the rex sacrorum, the three higher flamines and the three pontifices minores, who assisted the pontiffs in transactions relating to sacrifices and in their official business, besides sharing in the deliberations and the banquets of the whole college: these ranked according to length of service. In earlier times an advanced age with freedom from secular offices was necessary for eligibility to the pontificate; the high-pontiff, among other restrictions, was not allowed to leave Italy, was obliged to have a wife without reproach, and might not enter upon a second marriage or see a dead body, much less touch one. As regards his position, he was, as spiritual successor of the king, the sole holder and exerciser of the pontifical power; and his official dwelling was in the king's house, the regia of Numa adjoining the Forum, the seat of the oldest State worship. The college existed by his side only as a deliberative and
executive body of personal assistants. He appointed to the most important priestly offices of the State--those of flamen, of Vestal Virgin, and of rex sacrorum; he made public the authoritative decisions of the college. In matters which came within the limits of his official action, he had the right of taking auspices, of holding assemblies of the people, and of publishing edicts. He also exercised a certain jurisdiction over the persons subject to his highpriestly power, especially the flamens and Vestals, over whom his authority was that of an actual father. Owing to the great importance of the office, the emperors from the time of Augustus undertook it themselves until the year 382. As regards the functions of the college, besides performing a number of special sacrifices in the service of the household gods, they exercised (as already mentioned) a superintendence over the whole domain of the religious services recognized by the State, public and private. In all doubts which
arose concerning the religious obligations of the State towards the gods, or concerning the form of any religious offices which were to be undertaken, their [p. 1300] opinion was asked by the Senate and by the other secular bodies, which were obliged unhesitatingly to follow it. In the various religious transactions, expiatory offerings, vows, dedications, consecrations, solemn appropriations, undertaken on behalf of the State, their assistance was invited by the official bodies, in order that they might provide for the correct performance, especially by dictating the prayers. The knowledge of the various rites was handed down by the libri pontificii, which were preserved in the official dwelling of the highpontiff and kept secret. These included the forms of prayer, the rules of ritual for the performance of ceremonial observances, the acta pontificum-- i. e. the records relating to the official actions of the college--and the commentarii pontificum--i. e. the collection of
opinions delivered, to which they were as a rule obliged to have recourse when giving new ones.

An important and, indeed, universal influence was exercised by the pontiffs, not only on religious, but also on civic life, by means of the regulation of the calendar, which was assigned to them as possessing technical knowledge of the subject, and by means of their superintendence over the observance of the holidays. Owing to the character of the Roman reckoning of the year, it was necessary from time to time to intercalate certain days, with a view to bringing the calendar into agreement with the actual seasons to which the festivals were originally attached; and special technical knowledge was needed, in order to be sure on what day the festivals fell. This technical knowledge was kept secret by the pontiffs as being a means of power. It was for the month actually current that they gave information to the people as to the distribution of the days, the festivals falling within the month, and the lawful and unlawful days (fasti and nefasti; see Dies) for civil and legal
transactions. In B.C. 304 the calendar of the months was made public by Gnaeus Flavius; but the pontiffs still retained the right of regulating the year by intercalations, and thereby the power of furthering or hindering the aims of parties and individuals by arbitrary insertion of intercalary months. This they kept until the final regulation of the year introduced by Caesar as high-pontiff in B.C. 46. Closely connected with the superintendence of the calendar was the keeping of the lists of the yearly magistrates, especially of the consuls, since it was by their names that the years were dated, as well as the keeping of the yearly chronicle.

As experts in the law of ritual, the pontiffs had the superintendence over many transactions of private life, so far as ceremonial questions were connected with them, such as the conclusion of marriages, adoption by means of arrogation, and burial. Even upon the civil law they had originally great influence, inasmuch as they alone were in traditional possession of the solemn legal formulae, known as the legis actiones, which were necessary for every legal transaction, including the settlement of legal business and the forms for bringing lawsuits. They even gave legal opinions, which obtained recognition in the courts as customary law by the side of the written law, and grew into a second authoritative source of Roman law. Until the establishment of the praetorship (B.C. 366), a member of the college was appointed every year to impart information to private persons concerning the legal forms connected with the formulating of plaints and other legal business. The legis actiones were
made public for the first time by the above-mentioned Flavius at the same time as the calendar. See Bouché-Leclercq, Les Pontifes de l'Ancienne Rome (Paris, 1871); Mommsen, Röm. Staatsrecht, ii. 18-70; and the article Iurisprudentia.

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.


PO´NTIFEX
PO´NTIFEX (hierodidaskalos, hieronomos, hierophulax, hierophantês). The origin of this word is explained in various ways. Q. Scaevola, who was himself pontifex maximus, derived it from posse and facere, and Varro from pons, because the pontiffs, he says, had built the Pons Sublicius, and afterwards frequently restored it, that it might be possible to perform sacrifices on each side of the Tiber. (Varro, L. L. v. 83, ed. Müller; Dionys. ii. 73.) This statement is, however, contradicted by the tradition which ascribes the building of the Pons Sublicius to Ancus Martins (Liv. i. 33), at a time when the pontiffs had long existed and borne this name. Göttling (Gesch. d. Röm. Staatsv. p. 173) thinks that pontifex is only another form for pompifex, which would characterise the pontiffs only as the managers and conductors of public processions and solemnities. Others have suggested (cp. Plut. Num. 9) that the word is formed from pons and facere (in the signification of the Greek rhezein, to
perform a sacrifice), and that consequently it signifies the priests who offered sacrifices upon the bridge. The ancient sacrifice to which the name in this view alludes, is that of the Argeans on the sacred or Sublician bridge, which is described by Dionysius (i. 38; cf. ARGEI). But as the word pons originally meant way (Curtius, Princ. Etym. i. 323), it is very probable that pontifex meant those who make the roads and bridges (cp. Lange, Röm. Alt. i.3 371), and are therefore possessed of mathematical and engineering skill (Mommsen, R. H. i. 178: cf. Jordan, Topog. Roms, i. 1, 397). Marquardt prefers to regard the name as coming from the root pu, to purify, in a participial form. No explanation is satisfactory which [p. 461] does not account for the fact that the title was used in many other Italian towns besides Rome.

The Roman pontiffs formed the most illustrious among the great colleges of priests. Their institution, like that of all important matters of religion, was ascribed to Numa. (Liv. i. 20; Dionys. ii. 73; Cic. de Orat. iii. 19, 73.) According to Livy (x. 6), the original number of pontiffs were four: it has been commonly assumed that this was exclusive of the pontifex maximus, and that Cicero (de Rep. ii. 14, 26) is including him when he says that Numa appointed five pontiffs. But it seems probable that there was no pontifex maximus under the monarchy, the king himself discharging the functions, which afterwards were fulfilled by him. Besides, the number three seems to have been attached to this office as well as to that of the augurs, being retained in the case of colonies, which often keep faithful to the earliest type. Hence we must assume that Livy is in error in the account which he gives of the changes made by the Ogulnian law; and instead of supposing with Niebuhr that four
pontiffs represent the two earliest tribes, the Ramnes and the Tities, it will be better to assume that the six, including the king, represent the three tribes. But we really cannot get beyond conjectures on this point. In the year B.C. 300, the Ogulnian law raised the number of pontiffs to eight, or, more probably according to the researches of Bardt, to nine, and four of them were to be plebeians (Liv. x. 6). The pontifex maximus, however, continued to be a patrician down to the year B.C. 254, when Tib. Coruncanius was the first plebeian who was invested with this dignity (Liv. Epit. xviii.). This number of pontiffs remained for a long time unaltered, until in 81 B.C. the dictator Sulla increased it to fifteen (Liv. Epit. lxxxix.), and Julius Caesar to sixteen (Dio Cass. xlii. 51). In both these changes the pontifex maximus is included in the number. During the Empire the number varied, though on the whole fifteen appears to have been the regular number.

The mode of appointing the pontiffs was also different at different times. It appears that after their institution by Numa, the college had the right of co-optation; that is, if a member of the college died (for all the pontiffs held their office for life), the members met and elected a successor, who after his election was inaugurated by the augurs (Dionys. ii. 22, 73). This election was sometimes called captio (Gellius, i. 12; cf. FLAMEN). But at some time in the course of the third century B.C. the practice sprang up, we do not know more precisely how or when, that the choice of the pontifex maximus from the other members should be made by the votes of seventeen of the tribes, a minority of the whole number, determined by lot. This was the case with the election after the death of L. Lentulus in B.C. 212 (Liv. xxv. 2, 5), and with other later instances (Liv. xxxix. 46, 1; xl. 42). The ordinary pontiffs were still co-opted. An attempt to deprive the college of its right of
co-optation, and to transfer the power of election to the people, was made in the year B.C. 145, by the tribune C. Licinius Crassus; but it was frustrated by the praetor C. Laelius. (Cic. de Am. 25, 96; Brut. 21, 43; de Nat. Deor. iii. 17, 43.) In 104 B.C. the attempt was successfully repeated by the tribune Cn. Domitius Ahenobarbus: and a law (Lex Domitia) was then passed, which transferred the right of electing the members of the great colleges of priests to the seventeen tribes; that is, the people elected one from a list of candidates approved by the college, who was then made a member of the college by the cooptatio of the priests themselves, so that the cooptatio, although still necessary, became a mere matter of form. (Cic. de Leg. Agr. ii. 7, 18; ad Brut. i. 5; Vell. Pat. ii. 12, 3; Suet. Nero, 2.) The Lex Domitia was repealed by Sulla in a Lex Cornelia de Sacerdotiis (81 B.C.), which restored to the great priestly colleges their full right of cooptatio. (Liv. Epit. lxxxix.;
Pseudo-Ascon. in Divinat. p. 102, ed. Orelli; Dio Cass. xxxvii. 37.) In the year 63 B.C. the law of Sulla was abolished, and the Domitian law was restored by a plebiscite of Labienus, which prescribed that in case of a vacancy the college itself should nominate two candidates, and the people elect one of them (Dio Cass. xxxvii. 37). This mode of proceeding is expressly mentioned in regard to the appointment of augurs, and was, no doubt, the same in that of the pontiffs (Cic. Philip. ii. 2, 4). Julius Caesar modified but slightly this Lex Domitia, but M. Antonius is said to have again restored the right of cooptatio to the college (Dio Cass. xliv. 53). Mommsen (Staatsr. ii.2 29) doubts the accuracy of this statement. Under the Empire the right of appointment belonged formally to the senate, but virtually to the emperor.

The college of pontiffs had the supreme superintendence of all matters of religion, and of things and persons connected with public as well as private worship. A general outline of their rights and functions is given by Livy (i. 20) and Dionysius (ii. 73). This power is said to have been given to them by Numa; and he also entrusted to their keeping the books containing the ritual ordinances, together with the obligation to give information to any one who might consult them on matters of religion. They had to guard against any irregularity in the observance of religious rites that might arise from a neglect of the ancient customs, or from the introduction of foreign rites. They had not only to determine in what manner the heavenly gods should be worshipped, but also the proper form of burials, and how the souls of the departed (manes) were to be appeased; in like manner what signs either in lightning or other phenomena were to be received and attended to. They had the judicial
decision in all matters of religion, whether private persons, magistrates, or priests were concerned; and In cases where the existing laws or customs were found defective or insufficient, they made new laws and regulations (decreta pontificum) in which they always followed their own judgment as to what was consistent with the existing customs and usages (Gell. ii. 28; x. 15). They watched over the conduct of all persons who had anything to do with the sacrifices or the worship of the gods; that is, over all the priests and their servants. The forms of worship and of sacrificing were determined by the pontiffs, and whoever refused to obey their injunctions was punished by them, for they were rerum, quae [p. 462] ad sacra et religiones pertinent, judices et vindices. (Fest. s. v. Maximus pontifex; cf. Cic. de Leg. ii. 8, 12.) The pontiffs themselves were not subject to any court of law or punishment, and were not responsible either to the senate or to the people. The details of their
duties and functions were contained in books called libri pontificii or pontificales, commentarii sacrorum or sacrorum pontificalium (Fest. s. vv. Aliuta and Occisum), which they were said to have received from Numa, and which were sanctioned by Ancus Martius. These were preserved under the charge of the pontifex maximus in the regio. Ancus is said to have made public that part of these regulations which had reference to the sacra publica (Liv. i. 32); and when at the commencement of the Republic the wooden tables, on which these published regulations were written, had fallen into decay, they were restored by the pontifex maximus C. Papirius (Dionys. iii. 36). One part of these libri pontificales was called Indigitamenta, and contained the names of the gods as well as the manner in which these names were to be used in public worship (Serv. ad Verg. Georg. i. 21). A second part must have contained the formulas of the jus pontificium (Cic. de Rep. ii. 3. 1, 54). The original laws and
regulations contained in these books were in the course of time increased and more accurately defined by the decrees of the pontiffs, whence perhaps their name commentarii (Plin. H. N. xviii. 3: Liv. iv. 3; Cic. Brut. 14, 55). Another tradition concerning these books stated that Numa communicated to the pontiffs their duties and rights merely by word of mouth, and that he had buried the books in a stone chest on the Janiculum. (Pint. Num. 23; Plin. H. N. xiii. 27; Val. Max. i. 1, 12; August. de Civit. Dei, vii. 34.) These books were found in 181 B.C., and one-half of them contained ritual regulations and the jus pontificium, and the other half philosophical inquiries on the same subjects, and were written in the Greek language. The books were brought to the praetor urbanus Q. Petilius, and the senate ordered the latter half to be burnt, while the former was carefully preserved. Respecting the nature and authenticity of this story, see Hartung, Die Relig. d. Höm. i. p. 214. The
annales maximi were records of the events of each year kept by the pontifex maximus, from the commencement of the state to the time of the pontifex maximus P. Mucius Scaevola, B.C. 133 (Cic. de Orat. ii. 12, 52).

As to the rights and duties of the pontiffs, it must first of all be borne in mind that the pontiffs were not priests of any particular divinity, but a college which stood above all other priests, and superintended the whole external worship of the gods (Cic. de Leg. ii. 8, 20). One of their principal duties was the regulation of the sacra both publica and privata, and to watch that they were observed at the proper times (for which purpose the pontiffs originally had the whole regulation of the calendar: see CALENDARIUM Vol. I. p. 342 b, &c.), and in their proper form. In the management of the sacra publica they were in later times assisted in certain performances by the tres viri epulones [EPULONES], and had in their keeping the funds from which the expenses of the sacra publica were defrayed [SACRA].

The pontiffs convoked the assembly of the curies (Comitia Calata or Curiata) in cases where priests were to be appointed, and flamines or a rex sacrorum were to be inaugurated; also when wills were to be received, and when a detestatio sacrorum and adoption by adrogatio took place. (Gell. v. 19, xv. 27; ADOPTIO) Whether the presence of the pontiffs together with that of the augurs and two flamines were necessary in the Comitia Curiata also in cases when other matters were transacted, as Niebuhr thinks (i. p. 342, ii. p. 223), does not appear to be quite certain. The curious circumstance that after the decemvirate the pontifex maximus was commanded by the senate to preside at the election of tribunes of the people, is explained by Niebuhr (ii. p. 359: cf. Schwegler, iii. 66, and Mommsen, Röm. Staatsr. ii. 34, note).

As regards the jurisdiction of the pontiffs, magistrates and priests as well as private individuals were bound to submit to their sentence, provided it had the sanction of three members of the college (Cic. de Harusp. Resp. 6, 12). In most cases the sentence of the pontiffs only inflicted a fine upon the offenders (Cic. Philip. xi. 8, 18; Liv. xxxvii. 51, xl. 42), but the person fined had a right to appeal to the people, who might release him from the fine. In regard to the Vestal Virgins and the persons who committed incest with them, the pontiffs had criminal jurisdiction and might pronounce the sentence of death (Dionys. ix. 40) Liv. xxii. 57; Fest. s. v. Probrum). A man who had violated a Vestal Virgin was according to an ancient law scourged to death by the pontifex maximus in the comitium, and it appears that originally neither the Vestal Virgins nor the male offenders in such a case had any right of appeal. Incest in general belonged to the jurisdiction of the pontiffs, and
might be punished with death (Cic. de Leg. ii. 1. 9, 47). In later times we find that even in the case of the pontiffs having passed sentence upon Vestal Virgins, a tribune interfered and induced the people to appoint a quaestor for the purpose of making a fresh inquiry into the case; and it sometimes happened that after this new trial the sentence of the pontiffs was modified or annulled (Ascon. ad Milon. p. 46, ed. Orelli). Such cases, however, seem to have been mere irregularities founded upon an abuse of the tribunician power. In the early times the pontiffs were in the exclusive possession of the civil as well as religious law, until the former was made public by C. Flavius. [ACTIO] The regulations which served as a guide to the pontiffs in their judicial proceedings, formed a large collection of laws, which was called the jus pontificium, and formed part of the libri pontificii. (Cic. de Orat. ii 43, 193; iii. 33, 134; pro Domo, 13, 34: JUS) The new decrees which the pontiffs
made either on the proposal of the senate, or in cases belonging to the sacra privata, or that of private individuals, were, as Livy (xxxix. 16) says, innumerable, (Compare Cic. de Leg. ii. 2. 3, 58, Macrob. Sat. iii. 3; Dionys. ii. 73.)

The meetings of the college of pontiffs, to which in some instances the flamines and the rex sacrorum were summoned (Cic. de Harusp. Resp. 6, 12), were held in the domus regia on the Via Sacra, to which were attached the offices of the pontifex maximus and of the rex sacrorum. (Suet. Jut. 46; Serv. ad Aen. viii. 363; [p. 463] Plin. Epist. iv. 11.) As the chief pontiff was obliged to live in a domus publica, Augustus, when he assumed this dignity, changed part of his own house into a domus publica (Dio Cass. liv. 27). All the pontiffs were in their appearance distinguished by the conic cap called tutulus or galerus, with an apex upon it, and the toga praetexta.

The pontifex maximus was the president of the college and acted in its name, the full rights of the king in religious matters having descended to him (Mommsen, R. Staatsr. ii. 17-70). He was generally chosen from among the most distinguished persons, and such as had held a curule magistracy, or were already members of the college (Liv. xxxv. 5; xl. 42). Two of his especial duties were to appoint (capere) the Vestal Virgins and the famines [VESTALES; FLAMEN], and to be present at every marriage by confarreatio. When festive games were vowed or a dedication made, the chief pontiff had to repeat over before the persons who made the vow or the dedication, the formula with which it was to be performed (praeire or praefari verba, Liv. iv. 27, v. 41, ix. 46). During the period of the Republic, when the people exercised sovereign power in every respect, we find that if the pontiff on constitutional or religious grounds refused to perform this solemnity, he might be compelled to do so by the
people.

A pontifex might, like all the members of the great priestly colleges, hold any other military, civil or priestly office, provided the different offices did not interfere with one another; Thus we find one and the same person being pontiff, augur, and decemvir sacrorum (Liv. xl. 42); instances of a pontifex maximus being at the same time consul are very numerous. (Liv. xxviii. 33; Cic. de Harusp. Resp. 6, 12; cf. Ambrosch, Studien und Andeutungen, p. 229, note 105.) But whatever might be the civil or military office which a pontifex maximus held besides his pontificate, he was not allowed to leave Italy. The first who violated this law was P. Licinius Crassus, in B.C. 131 (Liv. Epit. 59; Val. Max. viii. 7, 6; Oros. v, 10); but after this precedent, pontiffs seem to have frequently transgressed the law, and Caesar, though pontifex maximus, went to his province of Gaul.

The college of pontiffs continued to exist until the overthrow of paganism (Arnob. iv. 35; Symmach. Epit. ix. 128, 129); but its power and influence were considerably weakened as the emperors, according to the example of Caesar, had the right to appoint as many members of the great colleges of priests as they pleased (Dio Cass. xlii. 51, xliii. 51, li. 20, liii. 17; Suet. Caes. 31). In addition to this, the emperors themselves were always chief pontiffs, and as such the presidents of the college; hence the title of pontifex maximus (P. M. or PON. M.) appears on several coins of the emperors. If there were several emperors at a time, only one bore the title of pontifex maximus; but in the year A.D. 238, we find that each of the two emperors Maximus and Balbinus assumed this dignity (Capitol. Maxim. et Balb. 8). The last traces of emperors being at the same time chief pontiffs are found in inscriptions of Valentinian, Valens, and Gratianus (Orelli, Inscript. n. 1117, 1118). The last
formally renounced the title in A.D. 382. From this time the emperors no longer appear in the dignity of pontiff; but at last the title was assumed by the Christian bishop of Rome.

There were other pontiffs at Rome who were distinguished by the epithet minores. Various opinions have been entertained as to what these pontifices minores were. Niebuhr (i. p. 302, n. 775) thinks that they were originally the pontiffs of the Luceres; that they stood in the same relation to the other pontiffs as the patres minorum gentium to the patres majorum gentium; and that subsequently, when the meaning of the name was forgotten, it was applied to the secretaries of the great college of pontiffs. This supposition is contradicted by all the statements of ancient writers who mention the pontifices minores. Livy (xxii. 57; compare Jul. Capitol. Opil. Macrin. 7), in speaking of the secretaries of the college of pontiffs, adds, quos nunc minores pontifices appellant; from which it is evident that the name pontifices minores was of later introduction, and that it was given to persons who originally had no claims to it; that is, to the secretaries of the pontiffs. The only natural
solution of the question seems to be this. At the time when the real pontiffs began to neglect their duties, and to leave the principal business to be done by their secretaries, it became customary to designate these scribes by the name of pontifices minores. Macrobius (Sat. i. 15), in speaking of minor pontiffs previous to the time of Cn. Flavius, makes an anachronism, as he transfers a name customary in his own days to a time when it could not possibly exist. The number of these secretaries seems to have been, at least after the time of Sulla, three (Cic. de Harusp. Resp. 6, 12). The name cannot have been used long before the end of the Republic, when even chief pontiffs began to show a disregard for their sacred duties, as in the case of P. Licinius Crassus and Julius Caesar. Another proof of their falling off in comparison with former days, is that about the same time the luxurious living of the pontiffs became proverbial at Rome (Hor. Carm. ii. 14, 26, &c.; Mart. xii. 48, 12;
Macrob. Sat. ii. 9). (Cf. Bouché--Leclercq, Les Pontifes de l'anc. Rome, Paris, 1871; Marquardt, iii. 227-238; Madvig, Verf. u. Verw. ii. 612-633; Mommsen, R. Staatsr. ii. 18-70.) [L. S.] [A. S. W.]


A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD. William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray. 1890.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24212 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: An Explanation of the Decretum
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, omnes.

There are several reasons for which the Collegium Pontificum chose to
expel Sp. Fabia Vera from the ranks of sacerdotes and to ban her from
ever again being numbered among them, but two are fundamental. The most
important is that she publicly mocked a caerimonia of the Religio. Her
joke was not accidental in mentioning Concordia, sacrifice, and me: it
was a direct allusion to a supplicatio to Concordia which I conducted
and which included a blood sacrifice. Without the allusion to that
supplicatio there is no joke to be had in her words. For all I care Sp.
Fabia Vera can tell the ML that I fornicate with dogs, the most I would
respond would be words in kind. But when jokes are made about the most
sacred rituals of the Religio and by a sacerdos no less, a line has been
crossed which cannot be uncrossed. For that alone a sacerdos should be
removed. However, Sp. Fabia Vera went further still and told citizens
that there would be no blood sacrifices in the public cult of Magna
Deorum Mater. It is the responsibility of the Collegium Pontificum to
set policy for all priesthoods and to regulate all public ritual
practices. That is Nova Roman law. It is not the place of a sacerdos
to arrogate that authority to herself, particularly in a cult in which
male priests frquently and bloodily sacrificed their testicles, blood
sacrifice was practiced Her principal festival, and in the imperial
period bathing in bull's blood was a common cultic act. Nor is it
proper for a sacerdos to insist that Plutarch's vision of the laws of
Numa be applied to a foreign cult brought to Rome long after Numa was
dead. The Collegium has tried to find a via media between those who
support and those who oppose blood sacrifice by permitting, but not
requiring it. When a sacerdos tells citizens that will never be
practised in the cult of a particular Goddess, she tells citizens that
any future sacerdos of the cult who chooses to perform blood sacrifice
is committing an improper act. It is precisely that mentality which the
Collegium sought to avoid in the decretum on blood sacrifice: we
attempted to provide a compromise on the issue which could accomodate
everyone. Sp. Fabia Vera sabotaged that attempt to build unity and
simultaneously set herself up in the cult of Magna Deorum Mater as an
authority independent of the Collegium Pontificum. If priests cannot be
counted upon to accept the authority of the Collegium in matters of
ritual practice, then there is no possibility of reconstructing the
Religio in any systematic way. It is her mockery of a caerimonia and
her refusal to accept the authority of the Collegium in ritual matters
which first and foremost motivated the Collegium's decision.

If there is a question as to why the Collegium Pontificum took action
rather than the decemviri (of whom we have none at the moment), the
answer is simple: that is the way the Nova Roman law is written. None
of the pontifices wrote the law on that issue and none of the pontifices
has the standing to present such a change to contio. We acted in
accordance with Nova Roman law. Also, in antiquity the decemviri were
subordinated to the Collegium Pontificum in matters of ritual practice.
The Collegium made a terrible mistake in appointing Sp. Fabia Vera in
the first place and is now simply rectifying that error. It will
shortly be commencing a nundinum of piacula to Magna Deorum Mater for it.

I am prepared to entertain any query in this matter by any practitioner
of the Religio, but in my view it is none of the business of
non-practitioners. The Collegium Pontificum does not comment upon the
selection of clergy by other faiths and practitioners of other faiths
should accord the same respect to the Religio and its official institutions.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24213 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Pridie Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is pridie Kalendae Iunii; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is Kalendae Iunii and sacred to Iuno Moneta, Mars, Carna,
Cardea, the Tempestes, and Ilythia; the day is comitialis. This day is
the anniversary of the dedication of the temples of Iuno Moneta on the
Capitoline (344 BCE) of Mars on the Campus Martius near the Capena gate
(388 BCE), and of the Tempestes (259 BCE), the Goddesses of eather and
storms. It is also the occasion of minor festivals to Carna, the
Goddess of protection for the bodily organs, Cardea, the consort of
Ianus and Goddess of door hinges and health (and protector of children
from stirges) and Ilythia, the Goddess of easy childbirth. Carna was
worshipped by offerings of beans, spelt and bacon-fat. Cardea received
the offering of hawthorn in window and a thrice annointing of the door
hinges and household threshold with olive oil applied with arbutus
leaves. Ilythia received offerings of nine cakes, nine popana, and nine
phthoes cakes. Also on the Kalends a sacrifice to Iuno was made by a
Pontifex and the Rex Sacrorum in the Comitia Calabra after which a
Pontifex Minor would announce the date of the Nonae Maii. Shortly
thereafter the Regina Sacrorum made sacrifice to Iuno in the Regia.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24214 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Pridie Kalendae Iunii
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Rose"

Cardea received
> the offering of hawthorn in window and a thrice annointing of the door
> hinges and household threshold with olive oil applied with arbutus
> leaves.

Unfortunately we don't have any hawthorn growing locally. I would like to
annoint the door hinges and threshold but what are 'arbutus' leaves? And is
there anything I could use as an acceptable substitute?

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24215 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve pontiff et salvete omnes,

"I am prepared to entertain any query in this matter by any
practitioner of the Religio, but in my view it is none of the
business of non-practitioners. The Collegium Pontificum does not
comment upon the selection of clergy by other faiths and
practitioners of other faiths should accord the same respect to the
Religio and its official institutions.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex"

Scaurus, as a pontiff of Nova Roma you are beholden to *all* citizens
of Nova Roma, not only practitioners of the religio. You yourself
have remarked on several occasions that whether or not practitioners
believe in the rites you perform, you do them for the whole of the
citizenry. I voiced my questions in what I thought was a clear,
concise, non-confrontational way, simply to help me understand an
issue that will, if left shrouded in mystery, reflect poorly on
everyone involved.

You did not even bother to explain under what circumstances an
apparently foreign cult (the Magna Mater) falls under the
jurisdiction of the College; if it is a foreign cult, then by your
own words as quoted above you are indeed "commenting" (if stripping a
priest of their office could be called a "comment") on a member of
the clergy of another faith.

This comment is an unusually divisive one; you blatantly separate
practitioners from non-practitioners in a way that violates the
spirit of Concordia which has been struggling to clear its head of
the murk on this List. This kind of response that exposes with
crystal clarity the need for the rule of law in Nova Roma; it lends
credence to the fears of priestly arrogance; it lowers the estimation
of the religio in the eyes of non-practitioners. Is this the result
you want? To draw an ever-widening line between practitioners and
non-practitioners? To what end? Do you think this brings honor and
dignity to the State?

Non-practitioners of the religio make up a good portion of the
citizenry of NR, yet you would alienate them to make some sort
of "circle the wagons" stand, the point of which is beyond me. I
have never heard a non-practitioner make fun of *any* practice of the
religio; there have been questions and disagreements (the result of
one of which was the compromise decretum), but never abuse of the
religio per se. Non-practitioners have been extraordinarily careful,
for the most part, to express clearly that they wish no offense
whatsoever, but are simply asking (or disagreeing) in the best way
they know how.

I ask the College of Pontiffs: is this the way you all feel? That
only practitioners of the religio have the right to ask questions
regarding the actions of our pontiffs; that only practitioners of the
religio can be brought into the full understanding of the workings of
the priests of Nova Roma? That only practitioners of the religio can
ask for full and clear explanations, under Nova Roman law, of
punishments and judgements made upon our citizenry?

I appeal to you all, pontiffs: please do not simply brush off an
honest inquiry. It does not do justice to the religio, to the
citizens, or to the dignity of the State.

valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24216 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: And that is the end of Free Speech
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato A. Artoro Iuliano quiritibusque S.P.D.

>
> The second question is: does the cult of the Magna Mater indeed fall
> under the auspices of the College of Pontiffs?

DRUSUS: the OFFICIAL cult of the Magna Mater that performs OFFICIAL
rituals on behalf of the nation led by the OFFICIAL representive of
the Religio, does indeed fall under the authority of the Collegium. If
someone wishes OFFICIAL status then they are going to have comply with
the strings that are attached to that status. This is a case of
someone desiring to have their cake and eat it too, to have the
privileges associated with official status, but not to be bound by the
authority of those who have a higher official status.

> The third question is: does the College of Pontiffs have authority
> over the private practices of any of the cults represented in Nova
> Roma *outside* the religio proper (i.e., Isis, Serapis, etc.)once
> their priesthoods have been licensed through the application process?

DRUSUS: The Collegium has no authority over PRIVATE religous maters,
ones that have no official PUBLIC status, with one exception. Claiming
it's a part of your private Religion dosen't free you from an
obligation to publicly show respect for the Gods of Roma, ie public
denunciations of the Gods as "Demons" or "false Idols" would still
leave a citizen open to blasphemy charges from the Collegium even if
that citizen's private religion taught that the Gods of Roma had such
a status.

In short in private maters we have no authority other than what
citizens grant us by accepting advice on conducting their private
religous affairs, in official public maters we have the authority to
say what is and isn't official.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24217 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Calendar
Ave Omnes

A while ago Cordus said it would had been nice to have a calendar to check in
general to know the "status" of a day a bit in advance.

for him, and for the ones who might had wanted it as well without asking... here
it is.

http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/caljan.htm

valete

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24218 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Salvete Cato et omnes,

Cato, I respectfully disagree with your comments regarding the
participation of non-practitioners in this unpleasantness. This is
an internal matter of the priesthood and the practitioners of the
religio. Interference and debate participation by non-practitioners
will not help the situation at all, perhaps create division and
anamosity and worst of all, possibly offend the gods according to
the beliefs of the religio. What Scaurus said below about the
situation not being the business of non-practitioners is not
offensive to my mind - it is more like basic common sense which is
why I said nothing on the ML regarding the matter. Some of my
colleagues are working as landed immigrants in Saudi for example.
They are living under the jurisdiction and protection of Islamic law
and you can be sure that they never interfere in internal religious
matters there. I believe some great Victorian adventurer (perhaps
James Brook of Sarawak?) who did so well for himself once said that
the secret to great success and survival in different cultures is
never to interfere with the local gods. Can you imagine what would
happen if Hindu, Islamic, Buddist or Rabbis started interfering in
the applications of Roman Catholic Canon Law for example?

There will be a lot of discussion on this situation but as a non -
practitioner, I urge all others like me to stay the hell out of this
debate on the list, especially for the sake of Concordia.


Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus









--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Salve pontiff et salvete omnes,
>
> "I am prepared to entertain any query in this matter by any
> practitioner of the Religio, but in my view it is none of the
> business of non-practitioners. The Collegium Pontificum does not
> comment upon the selection of clergy by other faiths and
> practitioners of other faiths should accord the same respect to
the
> Religio and its official institutions.
>
> Valete.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
> Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex"
>
> Scaurus, as a pontiff of Nova Roma you are beholden to *all*
citizens
> of Nova Roma, not only practitioners of the religio. You yourself
> have remarked on several occasions that whether or not
practitioners
> believe in the rites you perform, you do them for the whole of the
> citizenry. I voiced my questions in what I thought was a clear,
> concise, non-confrontational way, simply to help me understand an
> issue that will, if left shrouded in mystery, reflect poorly on
> everyone involved.
>
> You did not even bother to explain under what circumstances an
> apparently foreign cult (the Magna Mater) falls under the
> jurisdiction of the College; if it is a foreign cult, then by
your
> own words as quoted above you are indeed "commenting" (if
stripping a
> priest of their office could be called a "comment") on a member of
> the clergy of another faith.
>
> This comment is an unusually divisive one; you blatantly separate
> practitioners from non-practitioners in a way that violates the
> spirit of Concordia which has been struggling to clear its head of
> the murk on this List. This kind of response that exposes with
> crystal clarity the need for the rule of law in Nova Roma; it
lends
> credence to the fears of priestly arrogance; it lowers the
estimation
> of the religio in the eyes of non-practitioners. Is this the
result
> you want? To draw an ever-widening line between practitioners and
> non-practitioners? To what end? Do you think this brings honor
and
> dignity to the State?
>
> Non-practitioners of the religio make up a good portion of the
> citizenry of NR, yet you would alienate them to make some sort
> of "circle the wagons" stand, the point of which is beyond me. I
> have never heard a non-practitioner make fun of *any* practice of
the
> religio; there have been questions and disagreements (the result
of
> one of which was the compromise decretum), but never abuse of the
> religio per se. Non-practitioners have been extraordinarily
careful,
> for the most part, to express clearly that they wish no offense
> whatsoever, but are simply asking (or disagreeing) in the best way
> they know how.
>
> I ask the College of Pontiffs: is this the way you all feel? That
> only practitioners of the religio have the right to ask questions
> regarding the actions of our pontiffs; that only practitioners of
the
> religio can be brought into the full understanding of the workings
of
> the priests of Nova Roma? That only practitioners of the religio
can
> ask for full and clear explanations, under Nova Roman law, of
> punishments and judgements made upon our citizenry?
>
> I appeal to you all, pontiffs: please do not simply brush off an
> honest inquiry. It does not do justice to the religio, to the
> citizens, or to the dignity of the State.
>
> valete,
>
> Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24219 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
G. Equitius Cato Q. Lanio Paulino S.P.D.

Salve Lanius,

And thank you for your temperate response. I would point out that I
do not wish to meddle in any way whatsoever with the College of
Pontiffs; I merely asked for an explanation of *how* they came to the
decision they did. I also asked if any sort of due process was
observed. I would not dream of interfering with the workings of the
College. I only request that if *any* citizens asks for
clarification on an issue, their request be treated properly, whether
they are a practitioner of the religio or not. I thought my
questions (the original three) were pretty clear and simple. I did
not expect Scaurus to draw a dividing line simply because I happen to
be a non-practitioner. Does that make sense?

vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete Cato et omnes,
>
> Cato, I respectfully disagree with your comments regarding the
> participation of non-practitioners in this unpleasantness. This is
> an internal matter of the priesthood and the practitioners of the
> religio. Interference and debate participation by non-practitioners
> will not help the situation at all, perhaps create division and
> anamosity and worst of all, possibly offend the gods according to
> the beliefs of the religio. What Scaurus said below about the
> situation not being the business of non-practitioners is not
> offensive to my mind - it is more like basic common sense which is
> why I said nothing on the ML regarding the matter. Some of my
> colleagues are working as landed immigrants in Saudi for example.
> They are living under the jurisdiction and protection of Islamic
law
> and you can be sure that they never interfere in internal religious
> matters there. I believe some great Victorian adventurer (perhaps
> James Brook of Sarawak?) who did so well for himself once said that
> the secret to great success and survival in different cultures is
> never to interfere with the local gods. Can you imagine what would
> happen if Hindu, Islamic, Buddist or Rabbis started interfering in
> the applications of Roman Catholic Canon Law for example?
>
> There will be a lot of discussion on this situation but as a non -
> practitioner, I urge all others like me to stay the hell out of
this
> debate on the list, especially for the sake of Concordia.
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque S.P.D.
> >
> > Salve pontiff et salvete omnes,
> >
> > "I am prepared to entertain any query in this matter by any
> > practitioner of the Religio, but in my view it is none of the
> > business of non-practitioners. The Collegium Pontificum does not
> > comment upon the selection of clergy by other faiths and
> > practitioners of other faiths should accord the same respect to
> the
> > Religio and its official institutions.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > G. Iulius Scaurus
> > Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex"
> >
> > Scaurus, as a pontiff of Nova Roma you are beholden to *all*
> citizens
> > of Nova Roma, not only practitioners of the religio. You
yourself
> > have remarked on several occasions that whether or not
> practitioners
> > believe in the rites you perform, you do them for the whole of
the
> > citizenry. I voiced my questions in what I thought was a clear,
> > concise, non-confrontational way, simply to help me understand an
> > issue that will, if left shrouded in mystery, reflect poorly on
> > everyone involved.
> >
> > You did not even bother to explain under what circumstances an
> > apparently foreign cult (the Magna Mater) falls under the
> > jurisdiction of the College; if it is a foreign cult, then by
> your
> > own words as quoted above you are indeed "commenting" (if
> stripping a
> > priest of their office could be called a "comment") on a member
of
> > the clergy of another faith.
> >
> > This comment is an unusually divisive one; you blatantly separate
> > practitioners from non-practitioners in a way that violates the
> > spirit of Concordia which has been struggling to clear its head
of
> > the murk on this List. This kind of response that exposes with
> > crystal clarity the need for the rule of law in Nova Roma; it
> lends
> > credence to the fears of priestly arrogance; it lowers the
> estimation
> > of the religio in the eyes of non-practitioners. Is this the
> result
> > you want? To draw an ever-widening line between practitioners
and
> > non-practitioners? To what end? Do you think this brings honor
> and
> > dignity to the State?
> >
> > Non-practitioners of the religio make up a good portion of the
> > citizenry of NR, yet you would alienate them to make some sort
> > of "circle the wagons" stand, the point of which is beyond me. I
> > have never heard a non-practitioner make fun of *any* practice of
> the
> > religio; there have been questions and disagreements (the result
> of
> > one of which was the compromise decretum), but never abuse of the
> > religio per se. Non-practitioners have been extraordinarily
> careful,
> > for the most part, to express clearly that they wish no offense
> > whatsoever, but are simply asking (or disagreeing) in the best
way
> > they know how.
> >
> > I ask the College of Pontiffs: is this the way you all feel?
That
> > only practitioners of the religio have the right to ask questions
> > regarding the actions of our pontiffs; that only practitioners of
> the
> > religio can be brought into the full understanding of the
workings
> of
> > the priests of Nova Roma? That only practitioners of the religio
> can
> > ask for full and clear explanations, under Nova Roman law, of
> > punishments and judgements made upon our citizenry?
> >
> > I appeal to you all, pontiffs: please do not simply brush off an
> > honest inquiry. It does not do justice to the religio, to the
> > citizens, or to the dignity of the State.
> >
> > valete,
> >
> > Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24220 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
---Salvete Quintus Lanius Paulinus et Omnes:

Lanius, I do agree with some of your statements regarding first
impressions and how they cannot be relied upon with any accuracy, but
my statements below were related to persons I've had 'noteably
consistent negative experiences with', so I was hardly talking about
first impressions:) although you are certainly welcome to expand on my
statements in whatever manner you interpret them.

Valete
Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Pompeia,
>
> I guess even people that give you a negative experience still help
> to make you think, re-evaluate ideas and entertain great mental
> gymnastics. It is very difficult to access people from cyberspace
> and hopefully we can all meet in person, both friend and foe in the
> near future.
>
> One statement I always have found annoying is the one that says
> you'll never get a chance to make a first impression or how important
> it is that you will be judged on your first encounter or interview.
> There is an old Klingon proverb from Star Trek that says trust is
> something that is earned, not readily given. Often in life people I
> initially disliked or made an initial negative impression eventually
> turned out to be good close friends and others who gave me a great
> initial impression and more or less an instant friendship turned out
> to be a disappointment or let me down when they were needed the most.
> As any marriage councilor will tell you, it takes 6 months to a year
> to "really" get to know a person; at that point the real werewolf
> starts clawing his or her way out of the closet.
>
> Well perhaps we could all keep these things in mind when we deal
> with one another in NR.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
> <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete Modius et Omnes:
> >
> >
> >
> > You write "There are so MANY people in Nova Roma that have
> influenced
> > me in a positive way"...
> >
> > Isn't this the truth...actually I should have worded the question
> in a
> > less awkward way. From my perspective, after thinking about it,
> > "most" citizens I have encountered have influenced me in a positive
> > way...oh, some more than others, by virtue of closer association,
> > having more in common, etc...in fact, the ones whom I have had
> notably
> > consistent negative experiences with, I'd say total an estimated
> one
> > dozen or less, since 2000...that's not bad, considering we've had
> over
> > 2000 or so people as citizens at one point or another.
> >
> > I just didn't want people feeling they had to 'bite their tongues'
> all
> > weekend, worrying about whether which topic was illomened and which
> > was not...particularily new subscribers/citizens.
> >
> > I figured we can 'all' find something good to say about others, and
> > such can hardly be considered illfated no?
> >
> > Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24221 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar (and another link)
---Salvete Domitius et Omnes;

Thank you for the link, amice. I haven't checked this site for a
calendar lately, but it is nonetheless worth an optic cruise for those
interested in the Religio...

www.religioromana.net

Valete,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
>
> Ave Omnes
>
> A while ago Cordus said it would had been nice to have a calendar to
check in
> general to know the "status" of a day a bit in advance.
>
> for him, and for the ones who might had wanted it as well without
asking... here
> it is.
>
> http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/caljan.htm
>
> valete
>
> DCF
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24222 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Salve Equiti Cato,

I see your intentions on this matter are good. I just feel that
there will be great debate on this, your questions will be answered
one way or another by others who are practitioners or members of the
priesthood. I just feel that non-practioners need not be catalysts
to adversely fire the discussion along and G. Iulius Scaurus wisely
put the lid on this situation before it even gets to first base.

Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Q. Lanio Paulino S.P.D.
>
> Salve Lanius,
>
> And thank you for your temperate response. I would point out that
I
> do not wish to meddle in any way whatsoever with the College of
> Pontiffs; I merely asked for an explanation of *how* they came to
the
> decision they did. I also asked if any sort of due process was
> observed. I would not dream of interfering with the workings of
the
> College. I only request that if *any* citizens asks for
> clarification on an issue, their request be treated properly,
whether
> they are a practitioner of the religio or not. I thought my
> questions (the original three) were pretty clear and simple. I
did
> not expect Scaurus to draw a dividing line simply because I happen
to
> be a non-practitioner. Does that make sense?
>
> vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus
(Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete Cato et omnes,
> >
> > Cato, I respectfully disagree with your comments regarding the
> > participation of non-practitioners in this unpleasantness. This
is
> > an internal matter of the priesthood and the practitioners of
the
> > religio. Interference and debate participation by non-
practitioners
> > will not help the situation at all, perhaps create division and
> > anamosity and worst of all, possibly offend the gods according
to
> > the beliefs of the religio. What Scaurus said below about the
> > situation not being the business of non-practitioners is not
> > offensive to my mind - it is more like basic common sense which
is
> > why I said nothing on the ML regarding the matter. Some of my
> > colleagues are working as landed immigrants in Saudi for
example.
> > They are living under the jurisdiction and protection of Islamic
> law
> > and you can be sure that they never interfere in internal
religious
> > matters there. I believe some great Victorian adventurer
(perhaps
> > James Brook of Sarawak?) who did so well for himself once said
that
> > the secret to great success and survival in different cultures
is
> > never to interfere with the local gods. Can you imagine what
would
> > happen if Hindu, Islamic, Buddist or Rabbis started interfering
in
> > the applications of Roman Catholic Canon Law for example?
> >
> > There will be a lot of discussion on this situation but as a
non -
> > practitioner, I urge all others like me to stay the hell out of
> this
> > debate on the list, especially for the sake of Concordia.
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:
> > > G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Salve pontiff et salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > "I am prepared to entertain any query in this matter by any
> > > practitioner of the Religio, but in my view it is none of the
> > > business of non-practitioners. The Collegium Pontificum does
not
> > > comment upon the selection of clergy by other faiths and
> > > practitioners of other faiths should accord the same respect
to
> > the
> > > Religio and its official institutions.
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > > G. Iulius Scaurus
> > > Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex"
> > >
> > > Scaurus, as a pontiff of Nova Roma you are beholden to *all*
> > citizens
> > > of Nova Roma, not only practitioners of the religio. You
> yourself
> > > have remarked on several occasions that whether or not
> > practitioners
> > > believe in the rites you perform, you do them for the whole of
> the
> > > citizenry. I voiced my questions in what I thought was a
clear,
> > > concise, non-confrontational way, simply to help me understand
an
> > > issue that will, if left shrouded in mystery, reflect poorly
on
> > > everyone involved.
> > >
> > > You did not even bother to explain under what circumstances an
> > > apparently foreign cult (the Magna Mater) falls under the
> > > jurisdiction of the College; if it is a foreign cult, then by
> > your
> > > own words as quoted above you are indeed "commenting" (if
> > stripping a
> > > priest of their office could be called a "comment") on a
member
> of
> > > the clergy of another faith.
> > >
> > > This comment is an unusually divisive one; you blatantly
separate
> > > practitioners from non-practitioners in a way that violates
the
> > > spirit of Concordia which has been struggling to clear its
head
> of
> > > the murk on this List. This kind of response that exposes
with
> > > crystal clarity the need for the rule of law in Nova Roma; it
> > lends
> > > credence to the fears of priestly arrogance; it lowers the
> > estimation
> > > of the religio in the eyes of non-practitioners. Is this the
> > result
> > > you want? To draw an ever-widening line between practitioners
> and
> > > non-practitioners? To what end? Do you think this brings
honor
> > and
> > > dignity to the State?
> > >
> > > Non-practitioners of the religio make up a good portion of the
> > > citizenry of NR, yet you would alienate them to make some sort
> > > of "circle the wagons" stand, the point of which is beyond
me. I
> > > have never heard a non-practitioner make fun of *any* practice
of
> > the
> > > religio; there have been questions and disagreements (the
result
> > of
> > > one of which was the compromise decretum), but never abuse of
the
> > > religio per se. Non-practitioners have been extraordinarily
> > careful,
> > > for the most part, to express clearly that they wish no
offense
> > > whatsoever, but are simply asking (or disagreeing) in the best
> way
> > > they know how.
> > >
> > > I ask the College of Pontiffs: is this the way you all feel?
> That
> > > only practitioners of the religio have the right to ask
questions
> > > regarding the actions of our pontiffs; that only practitioners
of
> > the
> > > religio can be brought into the full understanding of the
> workings
> > of
> > > the priests of Nova Roma? That only practitioners of the
religio
> > can
> > > ask for full and clear explanations, under Nova Roman law, of
> > > punishments and judgements made upon our citizenry?
> > >
> > > I appeal to you all, pontiffs: please do not simply brush off
an
> > > honest inquiry. It does not do justice to the religio, to the
> > > citizens, or to the dignity of the State.
> > >
> > > valete,
> > >
> > > Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24223 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Salve Pompeia,

Just knowing people both positive and negative on the list only and
not seeing them in person kind of keeps us hovering around the first
impression stage in my opinion. As you surmise, I just was expanding
the discussion a little more but I also know where you are coming
from as well.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> ---Salvete Quintus Lanius Paulinus et Omnes:
>
> Lanius, I do agree with some of your statements regarding first
> impressions and how they cannot be relied upon with any accuracy,
but
> my statements below were related to persons I've had 'noteably
> consistent negative experiences with', so I was hardly talking
about
> first impressions:) although you are certainly welcome to expand
on my
> statements in whatever manner you interpret them.
>
> Valete
> Pompeia
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve Pompeia,
> >
> > I guess even people that give you a negative experience still
help
> > to make you think, re-evaluate ideas and entertain great mental
> > gymnastics. It is very difficult to access people from
cyberspace
> > and hopefully we can all meet in person, both friend and foe in
the
> > near future.
> >
> > One statement I always have found annoying is the one that says
> > you'll never get a chance to make a first impression or how
important
> > it is that you will be judged on your first encounter or
interview.
> > There is an old Klingon proverb from Star Trek that says trust
is
> > something that is earned, not readily given. Often in life
people I
> > initially disliked or made an initial negative impression
eventually
> > turned out to be good close friends and others who gave me a
great
> > initial impression and more or less an instant friendship turned
out
> > to be a disappointment or let me down when they were needed the
most.
> > As any marriage councilor will tell you, it takes 6 months to a
year
> > to "really" get to know a person; at that point the real
werewolf
> > starts clawing his or her way out of the closet.
> >
> > Well perhaps we could all keep these things in mind when we deal
> > with one another in NR.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
> > <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Modius et Omnes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You write "There are so MANY people in Nova Roma that have
> > influenced
> > > me in a positive way"...
> > >
> > > Isn't this the truth...actually I should have worded the
question
> > in a
> > > less awkward way. From my perspective, after thinking about
it,
> > > "most" citizens I have encountered have influenced me in a
positive
> > > way...oh, some more than others, by virtue of closer
association,
> > > having more in common, etc...in fact, the ones whom I have had
> > notably
> > > consistent negative experiences with, I'd say total an
estimated
> > one
> > > dozen or less, since 2000...that's not bad, considering we've
had
> > over
> > > 2000 or so people as citizens at one point or another.
> > >
> > > I just didn't want people feeling they had to 'bite their
tongues'
> > all
> > > weekend, worrying about whether which topic was illomened and
which
> > > was not...particularily new subscribers/citizens.
> > >
> > > I figured we can 'all' find something good to say about
others, and
> > > such can hardly be considered illfated no?
> > >
> > > Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24224 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar (and another link)
Salve

Here is another calendar http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/aegsa/rome/romec.html

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:49 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calendar (and another link)


---Salvete Domitius et Omnes;

Thank you for the link, amice. I haven't checked this site for a
calendar lately, but it is nonetheless worth an optic cruise for those
interested in the Religio...

www.religioromana.net

Valete,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
>
> Ave Omnes
>
> A while ago Cordus said it would had been nice to have a calendar to
check in
> general to know the "status" of a day a bit in advance.
>
> for him, and for the ones who might had wanted it as well without
asking... here
> it is.
>
> http://www.societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Religionis/caljan.htm
>
> valete
>
> DCF
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24225 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

To answer your questions, first, the authority of the Collegium
Pontificum to exercise its jurisdiction of a foreign cult is to be found
in article six of the Nova Roman constitution. Furthermore, the sense
in which the cult of Magna Deorum Mater was foreign (ritus peregrinus)
was the form and content of its rituals, in other words in
contradistinction to the ritus Romanus and the ritus Graecus. No one
questions that the ritus Graecus was an integral part of the Religion
Romana and the same applies to a ritus peregrinus. Once adopted at Roma
antiqua the cult of Magna Deorum Mater was simply a part of the official
state religion, governed by the religious authorities of the state, in
which ritual aspects differed from the ritus Romanus and ritus Graecus
(included in which is the nature of his priesthood). Furthermore the
decemviri who supervised the cult of Magna Deorum Mater were themselves
subordinated to the Collegium Pontificum; it happens that we do not
currently have any decemviri in Nova Roma, so the Collegium bears the
responsibility, as would have been the case if call the decemviri in
Roma antiqua were out of the city or dead. It is a sign of how profound
a mistake Sp. Fabia Vera's appointment to the sacerdotia by the
Collegium was that she now makes an argument which is based on a
complete misunderstanding of what a ritus peregrinus was; it's
foreigness consisted of its rites and the castration of its male
priesthood, otherwise it was entirely under the authority of the Roman
religious authorities. Her argument strikes me as being very
self-serving, since I know she has read Roller's book on Magna Deorum
Mater (Lynn Roller, _In Search of God the Mother:The Cult of Anatolian
Cybele_) and Roller has the appropriate references to solve the question
of whether a ritus peregrinus was subordinated to Roman religious
authorities or not (Kirk Summers' article in Eugene Lane's edited
volume, _Cybele, Attis and Related Cults_, is also useful).

Second, what I meant was that I am not going to become involved in
debates over decisions of the Collegium with respect to the internal
organisation of the Religio with non-practitioners and I believe that my
time is more profitably discussing the matter with people who have a
commitment to the Religio which non-practitioners do not have.
Catholics would not welcome queries from a Roman Pontifex over the
removal of a parish priest by his canonical superiors, nor would Sunni
Muslims take it kindly for a Roman Pontifex questioning the decision of
the Sheikh al-Azar removing a local imam from office nor Jews such a
query with respect to a decision of a rabbinal council to remove a
particualr rabbi. The reason why such queries would be inappropriate is
straightforward: if one doesn't have enough commitment to a religion to
become a practitioner of it, then one should not intervene in that
religion's internal discipline unless the internal discipline
constitutes a violation of law (which is clearly not the case of Sp.
Fabia Vera, since the authority of the Collegium to dispose in such
matters is abolute in the NR constitution). I am perfectly willing to
answer sincere questions from anyone, but I refuse to enter into what I
believe are politically-motivated debates with non-practitioners who
seek to use the Collegium's decision as a political weapon against the
Religio and its position in NR (you may validly consider that I do not
consider you such, since I am reply :-). Life is too short to spend it
arguing with people who will never be persuaded.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24226 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Q. Fabius Maximus (emails)
Salve Q. Fabi Maximi,

I got 2 emails with your name on them but there is no note and only
a file with them. I assume it is just these infected files tagging
on to our Yahoo addresses so I deleted them right away. If, on the
other hand you were trying to send me mail, please let me know.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24227 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
---Salvete Domiti Constantine Fusce et Omnes:

Hear, hear....with a few additional legal, moral and religious
expansions, my own humble opinions, fully attesting to the fact that I
am by no means a perfect specimen either.

Although I do not advocate disrepectful (and unconstitutional)
comments toward the Religio or anyone else's religion for that matter
(fair game in NR since 2003...nothing really to check it), one has to
look at the statement and say beyond a reasonable doubt "this is a
blasphemous statement"; to ascertain this, one has to look at the
intent behind the statement; the former priestess stated that she was
only kidding, and that it was a humourous 'dig' at Scaurus Pontifex
and not an attack on the Goddess she serves or the Di Immortals as a
whole. So was the intent Blasphemous...I do not see where one can
'accidentally' blaspheme someone, personally. Further,2 or 3 those who
boasted the most negativity about it, were making levity of the affair
in another forum. They were not collegium members, but one of those
persons posted a 'tish tish' comment to Vera this morning.

Further, she refused to apologize to him, because he had made some
statements around this time, she felt were insulting to others.
Nonetheless, she is moderated for a time, because of her remarks being
inappropriate for the list, and this aspect of justice is
satisfied...but apparently 'not enough', for some.

And, alas, 'technically' the Collegium 'is' in charge of the 'internal
affairs' of the Collegium, appointment of religious persons, their
removal, and they do have a right to crucify her if they wish ( the
Pontifex Maximus himself voted against such measures)....This is not
the first time a pound of flesh has been sought in NR, by some of the
same priestly personages, with praise from their secular associates,
and I fear it shall not be the last.

For the Collegium Pontificium to maintain any manner of credibility in
the eyes of NR, or macronationally as a Religio and/or Pagan religious
body, they must look not only at the degree of authority they 'can'
wield, but also the appropriateness by which such authority is
wielded, in terms of the consistency or "gross inconsistencies" by
which they judge others' behaviours...seemingly without feeling a need
to police their own, out of respect to the Divinities they station
themselves to serve...and the micronation they are so closely tied to.
Ignorance of this, is interpreted as, well, "hypocracy", or
'self-righteousness'..not received very well out there, doesn't matter
what religion whatsoever.

As for the timing of the recent Festival, per edictum of the Curule
Aedile...I fully agree with your remarks, Fuscus. To expand a bit,
Aediles constitutionally may police behaviour during the ludi,
festivals, etc...and they can use 'ill omened' to describe what they
define as undesirable behaviours.

"Ill-omened' to me, from a legal perspective, is failure to converse
according to the list guidelines, pursuant leges and constitutional
parameters...most of us use these legals as standards anyway, BUT it's
the same old, same old, no magistrate, short of a dictator or interrex
has a right to curtail freedom of speech that is mandated within the
Consitution...so from a Praetores perspective....all is well...until I
, as Praetor, would be asked to put a formula to any subsequent
Aedilician petition stating "Oh, Gaius said, such and such and we
think it was *ill-omened*," when Gaius was well in keeping with list
guidelines, the laws, constitution, etc.......the 'law' would be my
tool to evaluate this mess, not the interpretation of the Aediles.
Mind you, this whole affair could be appealed, but my point is you can
talk about what you will ,as long as it is not unlawful. But one can
display as much piety as one wishes, the latter being more of an option.

Out of respect, and not out of fear, did I honour this Aedilician
initiative...I was busy this weekend, which didn't make it very
difficult for me at that.

Lastly, Fusce, you misquoted :) the verbage of Pontifex Scaurus, from
the morning of May 22...Oh it can be argued that 'people (like me) who
live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones', but I am not the one
demanding more of another, it would seem, than I am able to justify
through my own misbehaviour, which I fully acknowledge, is never
excusable.

On Sat. May 22, 2004 (perhaps former message 23758) G. Iulius Scaurus,
Pontifex Nova Roma, stated in part, after stating that he was speaking
to former Censor M. Octavius Germanicus, and that the latter felt he
needed a rest...
"I, on the other hand, am currently drafting my resignation from all
my offices and citizenship, now that Iulianus has cancelled the vote
on deposing Fabia Vera because 'NR is in a crisis'.
I've had enough of these C__ __ (I'll use Fellators, Po) __ __ __ __RS
for a lifetime, and every Non Bonus in this organization can kiss my
Roman ass as it goes through the door"

So, Fusce, I do believe that he was referring to NonBoni Collegium
members as Fellators, this is how I read it, and that any person who
is against the Boni policies can venerate his gluteus...I take it that
he is one..?



Pompeia



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave Omnes
>
> So, Fabia Vera was removed, quoting from the decree, because the
pontifices
> found:
>
> "that by gross disrespect to the Religio Publica Romana, its most sacred
> rituals, and its institutions Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta has rendered
herself
> unfit to perform any priestly function."
>
> Now the question is: what gross disrespect? And if there was a gross
disrespect,
> why isn't Fabia Vera tried for blasphemy?
>
> Let's try to see what the gross disrespect was, shall we? The first
thing that
> comes to mind is her proposal of sacrificing a Pontifex. Good, that was
> disrespectful joke (because a joke it was), but let's assume that
proposing the
> sacrifice of a religious figure is good ground for dismissing
someone from a
> religious position. But then what shall the Collegium Pontificum do with
> pontifex Quintus Fabius Maximus who suggested that Fabia vera should had
> sacrified herself and invited her to do so because "Roma" was
watching (Message
> 23071 "It would not be the first time someone sacrificed themselves
for Rome's
> benefit. She better get on with it then.")? Or is the suggestion of the
> sacrifice of a (at that time still) sacerdos a lesser thing? The answer,
> obviously, isÂ… the Collegium will do nothing at all.
>
> Also, I've not seen such an outrage when Palladius and Gaius
Popillius Laenas
> suggested that Fabia Vera should had been sacrificed at Scaurus's place
> (messages 23055 and 23081). If suggesting the sacrifice of a member
of the
> religious order is gross disrespect of the Religio, shouldn't them
both be
> tried for Blasphemy? Or at least publicly censored by the Collegium?
But of
> course, they shall be not.
>
> On the other hand, one could say (the new Pontifex Athanasios, no
less) the
> gross disrespect has been not in one episode, but in her general conduct
> lacking dignitas ( "You have again shown to the people of Nova Roma
why you
> were removed; your comments on this list. ") that led to a
diminished aura of
> sanctity and authority of the members of the Collegium and the
religious order
> as a whole. But then one should wonder why the Collegium didn't act:
>
> - when a pontifex called all the non-boni "cocksuckers" inviting
them to "kiss
> his ass" (sorry for the wording, just quotingÂ… I can't present the
message
> numberor an exact quote because someone decided to delete it from
the Mailing
> list archives together with all the replies that had the pontifex'
original
> mail quotedÂ…interesting, isn't it?), or
>
> - when another pontifex uses regularly expressions so dignified as,
just to make
> a few examples "a person who's obtuse nature aproaches the level of
outright
> stupidity" and "They say Ignorance is Bliss, If this is true you
should be in
> Nirvana." Or "a snotty nosed punk like you" or "your obtuse nature"
referred
> to G. Equitius Cato (message 23813, 23826 and others) or "Your
feelings about
> wanting to be a Roman will no more convert you into one than they
will convert
> you into a poodle dog." Referred to Moravius Laureatus (message
23815) or
> "jibbering jackass" referred to F. Galerius Aurelianus (message
23826) . And
> then
>
> - when another pontifex who posts less often than he used to, yet
when he does
> he can't refrain from insulting fellow citizens, says things like
"(that) tells
> me how ignorent (sic!) of Nova Roma history that you are" and invite
them to
> leave (message 23838).
>
> So, all in all, if it was about the sacrifice comment, then at least
another
> member of the Collegium should be punished in the same way Fabia
was, if it was
> for general dignitas over the mailing list, wellÂ… the Collegium
should give up
> almost half of its members. Of course, Fabia Vera shall be the only
one to
> pay.. double standards, haven't we?
>
> Maybe, we should see and consider the decision for what it really is
(or at
> least for what it sounds from what can be known over the mailing
list): not a
> religious decision, but a political one. It were not Fabia's views
and acts
> about the Religio to collide with the Religio as a whole, but his
political
> positions in the "civil" matter of NR that collided with the ones of the
> majority of the Collegium and consequently Fabia had to go (while
all the
> others, despite similar behaviors as reported above, can happily stay).
>
> Once recognized as a political decision, we can all rest peacefully
and we can
> even, maybe, overlook the fact the Pontifices didn't feel like
providing actual
> examples, not even ONE, of Fabia's gross disrespect towards the
Religio that
> were the ground of their decision. Why didn't they? Because (as I
think) they
> were not to be found? Possibly, but I think it's even easier.. no
one even
> bothered to look for them as they were un-necessary for a political
decision
> about Fabia Vera. I think it's either that or that they didn't care
to show us
> the religious grounds of their decision because, as we cives have to
just take
> the pontifices as they are without any power to check their
appointments, their
> operate, their being fit for the role, we have to take their
decisions without
> any explanation or justification, don't we?
>
> "We found Fabia wanting, period, you have no reason or right to know
exactly on
> what ground we decided that". What other courts felt like not giving
out any
> ground for its sentences, for how pretestuous, incredible and
irrational they
> could had been? Umm, a few names come to mind, but none related to
pleasant
> memories. On the countrary, anyone issuing a judgment usually feels
compelled,
> when sure of its good faith, of making public the reasons the
judgment was
> based upon and issued, so that everyone can see how rightous and
rightly taken
> the decision was. I hope the Collegium will realize it and provide
us the means
> to know and judge their reasons in taking their decisionÂ… as a matter of
> respect for the cives' intelligence, if nothing else.
>
> Vale
>
> DCF
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
>
> PS
> I, too, think that the decision and the timing of the decree about
the religious
> festivity were not part of some kind of plot. On the other side, I
think that
> discussing of laws and events in genereal while keeping a civil
tone, without
> name-calling and insults, wouldn't had constitued an "ill-omen" word
and thus
> would had been perfectly acceptable. Furthermore, I think that it
shouldn't be
> needed a decree to keep the cives to respect the basic rules of
conduct that a
> simple education should suggest us all.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24228 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Tribune Ti. Galerius
Paulinus, to his friend Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,
and to all his fellow-citizens and all peregrines,
greetings.

Thank you both for those calendar links (which I'm
pleased to see agree with each other, or else I'd have
been in still greater confusion).





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24229 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
A. Apollonius Cordus to all his fellow-citizens and
all peregrines, greetings.

Alas, I spoke too soon - the two calendars don't
agree! I'll stick with trying not to think more than a
day in advance. :)





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24230 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend the Aedile, Flamen,
and Pontiff C. Iulius Scaurus, to his friend Sp. Fabia
Vera Fausta, to all those who have commented on this
and allied threads, and to all his fellow-citizens and
all peregrines, greetings.

(My goodness, these greetings are becoming unwieldy. I
shall have to try to cut down.)

Firstly, let me try to scotch any unnecessarily
detailed examination of Iulius Scaurus' parting
remarks to this list before his resignation by
pointing out that not more than a day or two ago the
man himself apologised publicly for those same
remarks, pointing out as he did so that they were
intended to be private. Whether this makes any
difference may perhaps be disputed until the
homecoming of those proverbial bovines, but it must
not be forgotten. Personally I wasn't much offended in
the first place.

On the substantive issues, I shan't say much about the
particular case of Fabia Vera Fausta's deposition, for
I am neither a pontiff nor a worshipper of the gods
and neither the college nor the priestess of Magna
Mater has any duty to me.

There are, though, some broader questions here. I do
not believe there is any theocratic conspiracy at work
here, and I am not yet fully convinced that political
forces are at work in the college (though I would be a
fool to simply ignore the growing number of people
who, having experienced the college's workings more
closely than I have, feel the opposite). But I can
understand to some extent where these ideas and fears
arise from, and I think the college could do more to
allay them.

The timing of the announcement of Fausta's deposition
in relation to the Ambarvalia I take to have been, if
not a coincidence, a well-intentioned move designed to
give anyone likely to be angry at the news a day-long
compulsory cooling-off period. When looked at that way
it seems a fine idea. But it is equally possible
(though less plausible) to see the timing - the making
of a potentially controversial announcement very
shortly before a day on which harsh words could incur
a prosecution for blasphemy - as a stratagem of
entrapment. I say again, I do not believe it was so;
but I find it remarkable that the college did not
consider that it could appear so. Here is an example
of the way in which the college could, if it so
wishes, be more careful in the future to avoid
inviting conspiracy theories.

The college is prone, or at least so it seems to me
from the outside, to take an 'us vs. them' attitude
toward the general populace. It has a reputation in
some quarters for being unwilling to explain its
reasoning or make clear its position. It should not be
hard for the college to dispel such a reputation if it
so chooses, and without sacrificing any of its
independence or supremacy in religious affairs:
explaining and clarifying one's policy is not the same
as allowing outsiders to dictate what that policy is.
To this end I'm very pleased to see Iulius Scaurus'
quick response to Equitius Cato's questions, and his
willingness to answer further questions so long as
they are genuine and constructive ones.

I think the college must go further and ask itself
whether the blasphemy clause and its accompanying
decree are not more trouble than they are worth. I've
commented before that the religio is quite hard enough
to disestablish without the need to make even the
suggestion that it ought to be disestablished subject
to criminal sanction. Let me just run through the
scenario again: first, a consul or a tribune would
have to propose to revoke the lex Iunia, which
prescribes the oath in which all magistrates swear to
protect the position of the religio. Next, this
proposal would have to escape veto by the tribunes,
the other magistrates, the senate, and the pontificial
college. Then it would have to be approved by the
assembly. Next, one of the consuls would have to
propose to amend the constitution to disestablish the
religio. This, too, would have to avoid being vetoed
by the other consul, the tribunes, the senate, or the
pontifical college. It would then have to be approved
by the assembly, and then by two thirds of the senate.
Perhaps there are indeed further ways in which the
status of the religio may be protected, but I do not
think they must include the criminalisation of
peaceful proposals to reform the state. This is one of
the principal things the blasphemy decree does.

Even setting aside the question of protecting the
religio itself from disestablishment, we must ask
whether it is really desirable for blasphemy to be
criminalised. We all know that the best way to prevent
shows of disrespect for the gods is to build a social
consensus which regards such disrespect as
unacceptable; and legislation is rarely the best way
to create social consensus - more often we find that
the existence of legislation on a certain issue erodes
social consensus on that issue, for people begin to
feel that where there is a law to fall back on the
community need not take responsibility. I would
enourage the college, and others, to consider whether
there are better and more effective ways to create
such a consensus than making it a criminal offence to
say that the gods do not exist. Anyone willing to do
so will, I'm sure, find that there are many citizens,
practitioners and non-practitioners, who are strong
supporters of special status and protection for the
religio and of public respect for the gods and for
religious institutions and customs, who would be
willing to help in finding and putting into effect
such measures.

But is it really fair to say that the blasphemy decree
makes it a criminal offence to say that the gods do
not exist? That is, to my mind, a perfectly reasonable
interpretation of the wording of the decree. Moreover,
the Aedilician edict concerning the Ambarvalia widened
the scope of the decree still further by showing that
it is possible for magistrates (and presumably
therefore also for pontiffs and others in authority)
to define certain types of conduct as actionable under
the decree which might not normally fall within a
natural interpretation of the blasphemy decree's
words. All this makes for great uncertainty over quite
what is allowed and what is not. As I write I am quite
willing to entertain the belief that some of the
things I have written, though meant entirely in a
constructive spirit and with no intention to undermine
or diminish public respect for the gods or the
religio, could quite easily leave me open to a
prosecution under the blasphemy decree or even article
XXI.A (treason) of the lex poenalis. I ask the
pontiffs to ask themselves whether such a situation,
in which citizens are hesitant to voice mild,
constructive, and supportive criticism, is desirable,
and whether perhaps the behaviour and decrees of the
college have unintentionally contributed to the
problem.

I do not see an oppressive theocracy, or a political
conspiracy wearing a religious mask, or anything of
the kind; on the contrary, I continue to believe in
the good intentions and integrity of the pontifical
college. However, I do see the college unwittingly
contributing to an extremely unhealthy climate in
which people with no malicious intent do not feel
entirely free to speak or behave as they would like
because they worry that their words and actions could
be taken as blasphemous or treasonable; a climate
which invites and fosters unfounded suspicion and
resentment of the college; a climate which is helpful
to no one and detrimental to everyone. I hope the
college will take note of my concerns, and will
recognise in me an ally willing to help it dispel this
unhealthy climate.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24231 From: matt hicks Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: and now for something completely different
so then the centurion says to the tribune... "Is that a plium under your toga or are you just happy to see me?"

Don't know precisely WHY I think it's necessary to say that... maybe because even our ancient brethren realized that from time to time we need to not take ourselves so seriously and have a smile. Seems like ever since I came to Nova Roma so many people have been at one another's throats about what are ultimately rather trivial things. Can't we revel in glory and shared triumph? Don't we have REAL things to ponder like the possibility of acquiring land upon which to declare a sovreign homeland? Quit this senseless bickering... SMILE... realize that we are working TOGETHER to make a dream that is ROME. Maybe I'm naive, but I would hope that with all the bright and evidently quite determined people here we can make something other than simply an opportunity for people to bicker. Just a thought.

Gallus Popillius Cicero


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24232 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Witness of Priesthood and Removal of Same
T Labienus Fortunatus Lictor Omnibus SPD

As a lictor of the Comitia Curiata I hereby witness the appointment of
Gaius Modius Athansius as a Pontifex Novae Romae.

I also witness the removal of Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta from her position
as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae, and that she is banned in perpetuity
from ever holding another religious office in Nova Roma.

Gratulor Gaio Modio.

You have my condolences, Spuria Fabia Vera.

Valete
--
"Use every man after his desert, and who shall escape whipping? Use
them after your own honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more
merit is in your bounty."
-Shakespeare
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24233 From: M.ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: OPPIDUM COMPLUTI (HISPANIA): AEDILES OPPIDI ELECTIONS
M ADR COMPLVTENSIS L DID GEM SCE AED OPPIDI COMPLUTI AD INTERIM L DID GEM SCE PROPRAETORI HISPANIAE SPD

According to the Edictum Propraetoricium XX (VI Galaicum) de
Oppidis Complutum Rata Habenda, the 2nd meeting of citizens from
the Oppidum Complutum take place yesterday, May 30th of 2004, in
order to celebrate the annual Comitia and election of the Aediles Oppidi.

There were the following two citizens attending the event (out
of 8 that are inscribed in the Album Civium Oppidi):

H. Rutilius Bardulus
M. Adrianus Complutensis

M. Adrianus Complutensis assumed the presidency of the meeting,
and H. Rutilius Bardulus was the provisional Rogator.

Before the opening of the Comitia, H. Rutilius Bardulus and M.
Adrianus Complutensis confirmed their candidacy to the position
of Aediles Oppidi.

They both were elected by unanimity of the citizens attending
the event, and therefore they will begin to assume their
responsabilities as Aediles Oppidi Compluti today, May 31th of
2004.

M. Adrianus Complutensis y L. Didius Geminus Sceptius are
dismissed as Aediles Pro Tempore.

***************************************************************

M ADR COMPLVTENSIS L DID GEM SCE AED OPPIDI COMPLUTI AD INTERIM L DID GEM SCE PROPRAETORI HISPANIAE SPD

De acuerdo con lo establecido en el Edictum Propraetoricium VI Galaicum DE OPPIDIS COMPLUTUM RATA HABENDA, se celebró ayer, Domingo 30/05/2004, en Madrid el II encuentro de ciudadanos del Oppidum de Complutum para elegir a los Aediles Oppidi para el año 2004.

Estaban presentes los siguientes 2 ciudadanos novorromanos, sobre los 8 inscritos en el Album Civium:

H. Rutilius Bardulus
M. Adrianus Complutensis

Marcus Adrianus Complutensis ha asumido la Presidencia del Encuentro y H. Rutilius Bardulus ha desarrollado las funciones de Rogator.

En la apertura de la Asamblea H. Rutilis Bardulus y M. Adrianus Complutensis han ratificado sus candidaturas al cargo de Aediles.

Ambos ciudadanos han sido elegidos por unanimidad de los presentes y asumen a partir de hoy 31 de Mayo de 2004 el tiutulo de Aediles Oppidi Compluti.

M.Adrianus Complutensis y L. Didius Geminus Sceptius abandonan su cargo de Aediles Oppidi Compluti provisionales.

(Madrid, 31/05/2004)


M. ADR. COMPLVTENSIS
VERBA VOLANT

http://www.nrhispania.org
http://www.novaroma.org
http://www.mambri.com/legio/
http://nrhispania.org/blog/












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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24234 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
Salvete Omnes,

I'm working on an overhaul of the information at
http://www.novaroma.org/calendar/index.html,

The new calendar will have the same basic format as Marcus Octavius
interactive Calendar at http://www.novaroma.org/bin/calendar/cview,
but won't have the interactive feature. Once this is finished Nova
Roma will have an accurate and easy to use calendar.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to all his fellow-citizens and
> all peregrines, greetings.
>
> Alas, I spoke too soon - the two calendars don't
> agree! I'll stick with trying not to think more than a
> day in advance. :)
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24235 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
G. Iulius Scaurus A. Apollonio Cordo salutem dicit.

Salve, Corde mi amice.

There is a straightforward reason why the Edictum de Feria Ambarvalia
went forward and could not be postponed in relation of the meeting of
the Collegium Pontificum: it was drafted and submitted to the consuls
and praetors for review before even the Pontifex Maximus knew when he
was going to call the meeting of the Collegium. Furthermore, the date
of the Ambarvalia is set by the mos maiorum and the juxtaposition
between it and the announcement of the decretum concerning Sp. Fabia
Vera is an artifact of when the Pontifex Maximus set the date for the
meeting. Finally the date of the Collegium meeting was set by a person
who voted against the decretum concerning Sp. Fabia Vera, the Pontifex
Maximus, who would hardly have convened the Collegium before the
Ambarvalia in order prevent criticism of a position with which he disagreed.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24236 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
it's
> foreigness consisted of its rites and the castration of its male
> priesthood, otherwise it was entirely under the authority of the
Roman
> religious authorities. Her argument strikes me as being very
> self-serving, since I know she has read Roller's book on Magna
Deorum
> Mater (Lynn Roller, _In Search of God the Mother:The Cult of
Anatolian
> Cybele_) and Roller has the appropriate references to solve the
question
>
Salve Cato; to remove some academic fog.
1.The MM cult was foreign, regulated by the decemvirs, lets say for
now the CP.

2. In Republican times only non-Romans could serve as priestesss or
priests. IT was foreign, they did 'gross' non-Roman things like beg
publicly, and behave very emotionally during the Meglalesia
proccession. It shocked Romans.
Their behavior was never punished by the decemvir

3. Now my behavior is being punished. Now do I get a trial like in
Roma Antiqua? No, do I get a warning, no, do I get a right to defend
myself, no.

4. As for the Quirites, now only Religio practicioners deserve
answers. Who the heck made that up? In Roma Antiqua there was no
difference between cives and priests.

5. This secretive exclusive behavior by the CP is entirely Boni
behavior. I am not Boni so I deserve to go. Simple.

vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24237 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Salve Cato;
this is something that I, the PM and others whose applications have
been turned down by the CP are keenly for: we are one! This us vs.
them mentality is abhorrent to me and there is no reason in the world
for you not to ask questions.
Rome was polytheistic, syncretic, etc everyone was welcome! And
this is historical not the fake replica of some early Jehovah cult
that separates the pure from the impure.
Remember all cives by building NR are pleasing the gods, something
the CP via Modius warns me to keep quiet off-list.
My cultus is foreign, I had not trial no warning, even the Vestal
Posthumia did, but worse I am being punished for something in antiqua
in my cult that never was punished! unconforming behavior!

The pontifeces, especially the PM who is for me know my behavior is
just fine, I think the only person punished was Genucius a Roman
citizen who castrated himself to become a eunuch priest. He was
banished.

Now I said I would never do blood sacrifce I never spoke of others,
and Iulia Vopisca is the sacerdos Maxima of our cult not me!

So I am being punished as Fuscus says for not being Boni, for being
for all cives of NR.
For making jokes, being happy, and not creating some faux medieval
church-state that has nothing to do with Roma Antiqua

salve
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta who admires and respects all cives



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Q. Lanio Paulino S.P.D.
>
> Salve Lanius,
>
> And thank you for your temperate response. I would point out that
I
> do not wish to meddle in any way whatsoever with the College of
> Pontiffs; I merely asked for an explanation of *how* they came to
the
> decision they did. I also asked if any sort of due process was
> observed. I would not dream of interfering with the workings of
the
> College. I only request that if *any* citizens asks for
> clarification on an issue, their request be treated properly,
whether
> they are a practitioner of the religio or not. I thought my
> questions (the original three) were pretty clear and simple. I did
> not expect Scaurus to draw a dividing line simply because I happen
to
> be a non-practitioner. Does that make sense?
>
> vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete Cato et omnes,
> >
> > Cato, I respectfully disagree with your comments regarding the
> > participation of non-practitioners in this unpleasantness. This
is
> > an internal matter of the priesthood and the practitioners of the
> > religio. Interference and debate participation by non-
practitioners
> > will not help the situation at all, perhaps create division and
> > anamosity and worst of all, possibly offend the gods according to
> > the beliefs of the religio. What Scaurus said below about the
> > situation not being the business of non-practitioners is not
> > offensive to my mind - it is more like basic common sense which
is
> > why I said nothing on the ML regarding the matter. Some of my
> > colleagues are working as landed immigrants in Saudi for example.
> > They are living under the jurisdiction and protection of Islamic
> law
> > and you can be sure that they never interfere in internal
religious
> > matters there. I believe some great Victorian adventurer (perhaps
> > James Brook of Sarawak?) who did so well for himself once said
that
> > the secret to great success and survival in different cultures is
> > never to interfere with the local gods. Can you imagine what
would
> > happen if Hindu, Islamic, Buddist or Rabbis started interfering
in
> > the applications of Roman Catholic Canon Law for example?
> >
> > There will be a lot of discussion on this situation but as a non -

> > practitioner, I urge all others like me to stay the hell out of
> this
> > debate on the list, especially for the sake of Concordia.
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > > G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Salve pontiff et salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > "I am prepared to entertain any query in this matter by any
> > > practitioner of the Religio, but in my view it is none of the
> > > business of non-practitioners. The Collegium Pontificum does
not
> > > comment upon the selection of clergy by other faiths and
> > > practitioners of other faiths should accord the same respect to
> > the
> > > Religio and its official institutions.
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > >
> > > G. Iulius Scaurus
> > > Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex"
> > >
> > > Scaurus, as a pontiff of Nova Roma you are beholden to *all*
> > citizens
> > > of Nova Roma, not only practitioners of the religio. You
> yourself
> > > have remarked on several occasions that whether or not
> > practitioners
> > > believe in the rites you perform, you do them for the whole of
> the
> > > citizenry. I voiced my questions in what I thought was a
clear,
> > > concise, non-confrontational way, simply to help me understand
an
> > > issue that will, if left shrouded in mystery, reflect poorly on
> > > everyone involved.
> > >
> > > You did not even bother to explain under what circumstances an
> > > apparently foreign cult (the Magna Mater) falls under the
> > > jurisdiction of the College; if it is a foreign cult, then by
> > your
> > > own words as quoted above you are indeed "commenting" (if
> > stripping a
> > > priest of their office could be called a "comment") on a member
> of
> > > the clergy of another faith.
> > >
> > > This comment is an unusually divisive one; you blatantly
separate
> > > practitioners from non-practitioners in a way that violates the
> > > spirit of Concordia which has been struggling to clear its head
> of
> > > the murk on this List. This kind of response that exposes with
> > > crystal clarity the need for the rule of law in Nova Roma; it
> > lends
> > > credence to the fears of priestly arrogance; it lowers the
> > estimation
> > > of the religio in the eyes of non-practitioners. Is this the
> > result
> > > you want? To draw an ever-widening line between practitioners
> and
> > > non-practitioners? To what end? Do you think this brings
honor
> > and
> > > dignity to the State?
> > >
> > > Non-practitioners of the religio make up a good portion of the
> > > citizenry of NR, yet you would alienate them to make some sort
> > > of "circle the wagons" stand, the point of which is beyond me.
I
> > > have never heard a non-practitioner make fun of *any* practice
of
> > the
> > > religio; there have been questions and disagreements (the
result
> > of
> > > one of which was the compromise decretum), but never abuse of
the
> > > religio per se. Non-practitioners have been extraordinarily
> > careful,
> > > for the most part, to express clearly that they wish no offense
> > > whatsoever, but are simply asking (or disagreeing) in the best
> way
> > > they know how.
> > >
> > > I ask the College of Pontiffs: is this the way you all feel?
> That
> > > only practitioners of the religio have the right to ask
questions
> > > regarding the actions of our pontiffs; that only practitioners
of
> > the
> > > religio can be brought into the full understanding of the
> workings
> > of
> > > the priests of Nova Roma? That only practitioners of the
religio
> > can
> > > ask for full and clear explanations, under Nova Roman law, of
> > > punishments and judgements made upon our citizenry?
> > >
> > > I appeal to you all, pontiffs: please do not simply brush off
an
> > > honest inquiry. It does not do justice to the religio, to the
> > > citizens, or to the dignity of the State.
> > >
> > > valete,
> > >
> > > Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24238 From: maria rotella Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: new member
Ave
I am a new member of NovaRoma and I have join in lailing list .

See you
Maya(new name Octavia) Sentia Caesaria


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24239 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
In a message dated 5/31/04 10:55:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
thehedocurus@... writes:

> Don't we have REAL things to ponder like the possibility of acquiring land
> upon which to declare a sovreign homeland? Quit this senseless bickering...
> SMILE... realize that we are working TOGETHER to make a dream that is ROME.
> Maybe I'm naive, but I would hope that with all the bright and evidently quite
> determined people here we can make something other than simply an
> opportunity for people to bicker. Just a thought.
>

Salvete,

The plan to realize our goal of spiritual and temporal center continues, it
will always continue, but there will always be disagreements on how best to
seek this goal, it is hard for 200+ people
to agree on anything. A sad fact yet true.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24240 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Q. Fabius Maximus (emails)
In a message dated 5/31/04 8:56:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjk@... writes:
Salve Lani
> I got 2 emails with your name on them but there is no note and only
> a file with them. I assume it is just these infected files tagging
> on to our Yahoo addresses so I deleted them right away. If, on the
> other hand you were trying to send me mail, please let me know.
>

I did not send them out, and since I don't use outlook they didn't come from
my machine.
Somebody else in NR has a PC virus, and it is sending everybody's address in
MS Outlook or Office virus using addresses in the book as cover.
You were right to delete the attachments.

Vale

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24241 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Edictum Censoris CFQ XI about the Annual Gens Registration
Ex Officio Censoris Iunioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

Edictum Censoris CFQ XI about the Annual Gens Registration

Some weeks ago I found myself to be the only Censor of Nova Roma. As
I am no "Pater famiias" I wasn't aware of the need for the annual
registration of Gentes. Now when I have become aware of the need for
a edictum about this issue I have also found that I need to prolong
the registration period until the 1st of August, which is done below.

The edictum is otherwise mainly a copy of the old one issued by my
former colleague Illustris Marcus Octavius Germanicus last year.

I. By this edict, I open the annual Gens Registration period, as
required in the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html).

II. Any Paterfamilias or Materfamilias who intends to remain in the
position of Paterfamilias or Materfamilias of his or her gens must
indicate this by registering the gens with the Censores, before
August 1st 2004.

III. The registration is a simply an acknowledgement that you are
active and wish to continue as Paterfamilias/Materfamilias. It takes
only a few seconds and costs nothing.

IV. The quickest and most reliable method of registering is to do so
yourself on the NovaRoma.org website. You may do so at this address:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/editgens?cmd=register

V. You'll be asked for your Roman Name or Citizen ID number, and
password. After entering these, you'll either see a page indicating
that registration is complete, or a list of activities that you may
now perform (which
incluces "Register your gens as active").

VI. If you have difficulty logging in, you may instead register your
gens by mailing "censores@..." (include a statement that
this is a gens registration, give your full Roman name, and your Gens
name). Be warned that email is sometimes lost, and the Censores may
not be able to do the registration immediately; therefore it is best
to use the website method if possible.

VII. Although the two electronic methods are preferred, you may
instead send a written statement of intent to remain as Paterfamilias
to: Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897, Wells, ME 04090.

VIII. At the end of the registration period, all gentes that have NOT
been registered will be closed - no new members will be admitted -
and the unresponsive Paterfamilias removed; the remaining gens
members, if any, will be asked to elect a new Paterfamilias.

To avoid this, register your gens today.

IX. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given the 31st of May, in the year of the Consulship of Gnaeus Astur
and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, 2757 AUC.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24242 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Pomepia Minucia Tiberia S.P.D.

Salve,

pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:

"I, on the other hand, am currently drafting my resignation from all
my offices and citizenship, now that Iulianus has cancelled the vote
on deposing Fabia Vera because 'NR is in a crisis'.
I've had enough of these C__ __ (I'll use Fellators, Po) __ __ __ __RS
for a lifetime, and every Non Bonus in this organization can kiss my
Roman ass as it goes through the door"

So, Fusce, I do believe that he was referring to NonBoni Collegium
members as Fellators, this is how I read it, and that any person who
is against the Boni policies can venerate his gluteus...I take it that
he is one..?

As one of the "NonBoni" Collegium members I can pretty confidently state that my Colleague Gaius Iulius Scarus was *not* referring to us when he made that remark. Let's not forget that at the time, Gaius Iulius had been subjected for sometime to a vicious (i.e. criminally threatening) series of off-list e-mail attacks by someone clearly opposed his views regarding Nova Roma and the Religio. Under the circumstances, I think we can cut him a little slack, especially given the fact he made a public apology for what was undoubtably an emotional outburst (something many of us have been guilty off in the past). I'm just glad he s willing to stay on with NR.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24243 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: new member
---Welcome to the Republic Octavia Sentia :)

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, maria rotella <mariarot74@y...> wrote:
> Ave
> I am a new member of NovaRoma and I have join in lailing list .
>
> See you
> Maya(new name Octavia) Sentia Caesaria
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24244 From: Equestria Iunia Laeca Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Salvete,

> Q. Fabius Maximus wrote:
> The plan to realize our goal of spiritual and temporal center continues,
it
> will always continue, but there will always be disagreements on how best
to
> seek this goal, it is hard for 200+ people
> to agree on anything. A sad fact yet true.

It's unfortunate that you feel it needs to be that "sad fact yet true" and
no other option. There is more to Nova Roma than growing the "entity".
Nova Romans are here to grow themselves as well. Endless spinning of
political, legal, religious and moral ideals is not going to get us to that
goal any quicker.



> >Gallus Popillius Cicero wrote:
> > realize that we are working TOGETHER to make a dream that is ROME.
> > Maybe I'm naive...

You are not naive. You are an idealist.



Perhaps another approach could be agreed upon. Another "alternate" main
list of Nova Roma. Called "Nova Roman" or similar. A list where the main
goal is on growing the individuals. Where anything relative to being nova
roman is addressed. This could include but not limited to social, family,
roman life, roman home, roman dress, cooking, minor politics, religion and
latin. A catch-all for citizens that wish to belong to a community of Nova
Romans. Rome was special in many ways. Nova Roma can be more and give more
than the insults, legal battles, moral battles, etc. to its citizens.

Valete,

Equestria Iunia Laeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24245 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.D.

Salve Scaurus.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
it's
> foreigness consisted of its rites and the castration of its male
> priesthood


CATO: eek


> Catholics would not welcome queries from a Roman Pontifex over the
> removal of a parish priest by his canonical superiors, nor would
Sunni
> Muslims take it kindly for a Roman Pontifex questioning the
decision of
> the Sheikh al-Azar removing a local imam from office nor Jews such
a
> query with respect to a decision of a rabbinal council to remove a
> particualr rabbi. The reason why such queries would be
inappropriate is
> straightforward: if one doesn't have enough commitment to a
religion to
> become a practitioner of it, then one should not intervene in that
> religion's internal discipline unless the internal discipline
> constitutes a violation of law (which is clearly not the case of
Sp.
> Fabia Vera, since the authority of the Collegium to dispose in such
> matters is abolute in the NR constitution). I am perfectly willing
to
> answer sincere questions from anyone, but I refuse to enter into
what I
> believe are politically-motivated debates with non-practitioners
who
> seek to use the Collegium's decision as a political weapon against
the
> Religio and its position in NR (you may validly consider that I do
not
> consider you such, since I am reply :-). Life is too short to
spend it
> arguing with people who will never be persuaded.


CATO: Thank you for the response regarding the position of the MM
cultus within the framework of RA. The differentiation between the
rites makes some sense (in my mind I substituted Byzantine-rite
Catholics, who would mirror this example if I understand it
correctly).

My only concern, as I voiced earlier, again is not with the inner
workings of the College; I assume that the pontiffs know what they
are doing, and hope that they do so with the best interest of *all*
NR citizens.

Rather, my concern is primarily with due process under the law. It
seems to me that if Fabia has no problem with airing the charges
against her in a public forum, so as to mount some sort of a defense,
then the College should have no problem spelling out those charges
and their process of decision-making. Again, not because I have any
interest in changing the process itself, but because I would be
interested in hearing both sides fully, to better understand how this
action serves the State. Because in NR the State and the religio are
intimately connected; it has often been said that without the
religio, there is no NR. The only macronational states in which the
political and religious arenas are so entwined are, unfortunately,
the fundamentalist Muslim states, and they do *not* present a
terribly encouraging portrait of calm judicial moderation. If a
rabbi was also a judge in a particular community, and he was
defrocked (? I don't know the term relevant in Judaism) by a
rabbinical council because of moral and/or ethical reasons, then the
non-Jewish members of the area in which he practiced his judicial
power should indeed know what happened, and what, if any, defense the
rabbi was allowed.

As was made clear with the decretum regarding the observance of the
Ambarvalia, relgious issues do make a huge impression on the
public/political life of NR.

I hope this makes my point clearer.

> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24246 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Apelo! Appeal
ACCORDING TO THE ROMAN USE, TO THE MOS MAIORUM, I USE THE RIGHT OF
APELO TO THE PEOPLE AND APPEAL THE DECISION TO THE TRIBUNE PLEBIS AND
TO THE JUDGEMENT OF THE COMITA.

SPURIA FABIA VERA FAUSTA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24247 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Appeal ; my reasons
Salvete Quirites;
here is are some of my reasons why I appeal:

1.I received no notice from the Collegium Pontificum. They did not
inform me by word or deed that I was in trouble or would have any
type of action taken against me. I had no idea I was in trouble with
the CP.

2. I was never given an opportunity or chance to defend myself


3. The Vestal Postumia was given an opportunity to defend herself, I
have not. Additionally the priests and priestesses of Magna Mater
under the Republic were not Roman citizens; they engaged in unRoman
behavior that disgusted many commentators, Livy, Ovid, Catullus, they
publicly begged, danced, acted frenzied, and in private life were
sexually promiscuous, drank and had a very bad reputation. But never
once were they punished for bad behavior.
4. Only Genucius a Roman Citizen who castrated himself was punished
by banishment.

5.I have maintained my cult immaculately congratulated by Scaurus, I
have always agreed with his suggestions about my cult & respected his
suggestions. I've never not done one word that was suggested in
regard to my cult.

6. I may not agree with them personally, the pontifeces, but does
that mean from now on anyone can be thrown out from their priesthood
if they have personal differences?

7. Other pontifeces have behaved badly, cursed, libelled even made
fun of human sacrifice, Palladius, etc but they are not punished
similarly.

8. My punishment is illegal and unfair above are some of my reasons.

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24248 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Fwd: MY APPEAL fv
>X-Original-Recipient: christer.edling@...
>From: "kirshner" <kirshner@...>
>To: "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@...>
>Subject: MY APPEAL fv
>Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:27:55 -0700
>X-Priority: 3
>Status:
>
>Salve Caeso Fabi; I've written an appeal to the Tribunes and want to
>appeal to the Comitia, I wrote the Consul, as I'm moderated that I'm
>having computer problems so please if it is not an infringement
>please forward my appeal before it expires to the ML
>
>
>ACCORDING TO THE ROMAN USE, TO THE MOS MAIORUM, I USE THE RIGHT OF
>APELO TO THE PEOPLE AND APPEAL THE DECISION TO THE TRIBUNUS PLEBIS
>AND TO THE JUDGEMENT OF THE COMITIA
> SPURIA FABIA VERA FAUSTA
>


--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24249 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Calendar
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator and Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> I'm working on an overhaul of the information at
> http://www.novaroma.org/calendar/index.html,

Ah, great news! Thank you. I look forward to it. Will
you make an announcement when it's finished?





____________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24250 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend the Aedile, Flamen,
and Pontiff C. Iulius Scaurus, and to all citizens and
peregrines, greetings.

Thank you for your speedy and clear explanation. I'm
glad to have my assumption of good faith vindicated.

As for the rest, I hope you and your colleagues will
give it some thought.





____________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24251 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Double Standards and the grounds of a decision.
---
Pontifex et Frater Hadriane;

I am glad you are not taking this so personally. I have also written
you privately, so don't confuse the private letter for the same
message, ok?

Po

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Pomepia Minucia Tiberia S.P.D.
>
> Salve,
>
> pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:
>
> "I, on the other hand, am currently drafting my resignation from all
> my offices and citizenship, now that Iulianus has cancelled the vote
> on deposing Fabia Vera because 'NR is in a crisis'.
> I've had enough of these C__ __ (I'll use Fellators, Po) __ __ __ __RS
> for a lifetime, and every Non Bonus in this organization can kiss my
> Roman ass as it goes through the door"
>
> So, Fusce, I do believe that he was referring to NonBoni Collegium
> members as Fellators, this is how I read it, and that any person who
> is against the Boni policies can venerate his gluteus...I take it that
> he is one..?
>
> As one of the "NonBoni" Collegium members I can pretty confidently
state that my Colleague Gaius Iulius Scarus was *not* referring to us
when he made that remark. Let's not forget that at the time, Gaius
Iulius had been subjected for sometime to a vicious (i.e. criminally
threatening) series of off-list e-mail attacks by someone clearly
opposed his views regarding Nova Roma and the Religio. Under the
circumstances, I think we can cut him a little slack, especially given
the fact he made a public apology for what was undoubtably an
emotional outburst (something many of us have been guilty off in the
past). I'm just glad he s willing to stay on with NR.
>
> Vale,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24252 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Private Letters
Salvete omnes,

I think we went through this subject about 2 months ago. Anyway I
just want to say that if I ever write privately to a citizen or an
office's private mailing list using harsh, profane language or
touching on subjects that may border on great contraversy, I will
not accept responsibility or apologize to the citizens if someone or
the person to whom I am writing takes my correspondance and posts it
to this list.

The whole idea of such a letter is to stay clear of the main list
and the fault or any chastisement should fall on the shoulder of the
one who posts it; not the author.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24253 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Diana and your willingness to work
Salve Diana!

I am sorry to be so late to answer your mail, but I have been very
busy and just to read the ML takes more time than I have. But I would
like to answer your mail now.

>Salve Caeso Fabius,
>
><But You will never see me fall to the level of name-calling and I am
><prepared to work with citizens from all factions as long as they
><_work_ and not just talk.
>
>I do not really believe that you or any one from your larger faction
>is really interested in
>working with anyone to solve NR's problems, since I am still waiting
>for a reply from an email
>that I sent you in early January 2004, suggesting just that.

I am sorry but I have gone through all my mails from that time
period, but I have found _no_ mail from You. As I have said before
there is a huge influx of spam especially to the addresses of
"consuls@" and "censors@". It is fully possible that I have deleted
your mail by accident without noticing that it was a private mail.

> As I mentioned to you in that email
>I've been on the Boni list since August 2003

I have know that for some time. ;-)

> and want to see 2004 as a year of building bridges.

Good idea. I have been doing so since _many_ years.

If You are fair You must admit that I appointed Illustris Decius
Iunius Palladius my Accensus Magnus during my Consulship last year.
Palladius is a very intelligent and polite person known to always
consider all sides of things, even when a proposal comes from an
opponent. But he isn't known as one of my allies and I considered him
a Boni at the time. I don't yet know if he is and I don't really care.

I have continued to appoint people who are independent from or even
opposed to me.this year. Among my Cohors Censoris I have several
Scribae that have no political or earlier conncetion with me. One or
two have even been known to oppose my proposals. ;-)

Further You might not know, but I have invited the Scribae of my
former Censorial Colleague to be guests on my Cohors Censois list.
Illustris Gaius Modius Athanasius who is a well-known Boni accepted.
I invited him before You wrote this mail as I wanted him to give me
some advise and I also _wanted_ a political opponent as an observer.
That I count him as a personal friend isn't any disadvantage of
course. He is now my guest and an observerer on the Cohors list. I
have no problems to cooperate with him or anyone else who is polite
and constructive. The real problem is to have time to keep in touch
with all friends and contacts, as I guess You well know.

You have been my Scriba and also a member of my Consular election HQ
until I was elected, but after You were elected a Tribune You
couldn't be part of my Cohors any longer, we both agreed on that.

>As I also said in that email, I agree with the public Boni Sulla, Q
>Fabius and L S Drusus about 50
>percent of the time,

This is something I seldom do. ;-)

>which means that I agree with the 'moderates' the other 50.

If You mean people like Illustris Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
and Illustris Decimus Iunius Silanus I also agree with them now and
again and they agree with me at other times. ;-)

You are of course free to take what ever kind of position You want,
but if You would like to work for me You would have to show a minumum
of loyalty and dutifulness towards me as your "boss". Still I known
that You are the Quaestor of Illustris Marcus Julius Perusianus and I
suppose that You will have to think my offer (below) over a couple
of days as the workload in his Cohors might be rather high.

>Since you have publicly stated that you are willing to work with
>anyone of any faction I am now
>saying publicly to you that although the most moderate of the Boni,
>I am willing to work with you.

Good! I am grateful that You are providing me with a chance to _once
again_ prove that I am one of those who will cooperate with my
opponents, at least the reasonable ones. This is your chance to prove
that You are reasonable too.. My limit goes however by those who are
unpolite and never discuss anything with the aim to reach an
agreement, but ónly try to sabotage and delay things.

I am going to offer You a position as a provisional Scriba in my
Cohors. I am in need of a couple of provisional Scriba during the
Gens registration period and for some period after that. This will
leave You free to candidate for any office without having to occupy
yourself with Censorial work after September. Many has been critical
to my appointments of, as they say, too many assistants, I will try
to limit the number of assistants as far as possible. But as the work
of the Censors at the moment is solely on my shoulders (with the
technical assistance of my former colleague behind the scenes) so I
will need to recruit a separate crew for the Gens registration task.
Please expect a private mail from me about this position.

>I hope to get a response from you this time.

I would advise You to resend any mail that You don't get an answer to
from a Senior magistrate as we get so much spam that we either might
delete messages by accident or even not recognise them in the huge
pile of incoming mail. Please give us at least a second chance now
when You are informed of the problems!

>Vale,
>Diana Octavia

Please have patience with me if I don't answer this mail at once. I
will do my best to answer any mail from You to me about my private
mail though.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24254 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit

You are a far cry from being "for being for all cives of NR." You are clearly out for yourself, and your attempt to "rally the citizens of Nova Roma" to your side simply takes away from your dignity and is -- in my opinion -- against the spirit of Concordia.

Your comment, "Remember all cives by building NR are pleasing the gods, something the CP via Modius warns me to keep quiet off-list." baffles me. I am no official spokesperson for the Collegium Pontificum, no more than any other Pontifex or Flamen. Your use of "name-dropping" to attempt to discredit me is a feeble ploy to yet again, "rally the citizens of Nova Roma" to support you.

Not being Boni had absolutely nothing to do with your removal from the priesthood, and I would be willing to go under oath to attest to that.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/31/2004 2:18:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rory12001@... writes:

> Remember all cives by building NR are pleasing the gods, something
> the CP via Modius warns me to keep quiet off-list.
> My cultus is foreign, I had not trial no warning, even the Vestal
> Posthumia did, but worse I am being punished for something in antiqua
> in my cult that never was punished! unconforming behavior!
>
> The pontifeces, especially the PM who is for me know my behavior is
> just fine, I think the only person punished was Genucius a Roman
> citizen who castrated himself to become a eunuch priest. He was
> banished.
>
> Now I said I would never do blood sacrifce I never spoke of others,
> and Iulia Vopisca is the sacerdos Maxima of our cult not me!
>
> So I am being punished as Fuscus says for not being Boni,
> for being
> for all cives of NR.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24255 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Decision Process of the Decretum
G. Equitius Cato writes:

Rather, my concern is primarily with due process under the law. It
seems to me that if Fabia has no problem with airing the charges
against her in a public forum, so as to mount some sort of a defense, then
the College should have no problem spelling out those charges and their process
of decision-making.


Salve,

There were only two views on the Decretum regarding Sp. Fabia Vera; mine and
that of the entire rest of the Collegium Pontificum. So that the process may
be understood, I will post the summations of the two arguments that were given
during the vote. Q. Fabius Maximus gave the most organized summation of the
view held by the rest of the Pontifices. I do not believe any other Pontifex
raised any other major issues not covered in the two summations.

My post was the first in the vote, so I present it first. I believe my points
were considered by the other Pontifices before they voted. I provide it here
as a record of the dissenting opinion:

******************************************************************
Marcus Cassius Julianus - ANTIQUO
No offense to Scarus, but this Decretum would be dangerous at any time, and
is particularly dangerous in the way it's being done. We may all agree that
Fabia Vera isn't an ideal or even particularly desired member of the Priesthood,
but that doesn't mean we shouldn't follow an above board and forthright
procedure. Here are some thoughts:

1. Fabia Vera received no *official* communications from the Collegium
regarding her behavior, so she has in fact never declined an order or request from
the guiding body of NR itself.

2. Fabia Vera has not been informed that she is under review, nor has she
been given any opportunity to defend herself before this body.

3. We'll be setting a first-time precedent here - declaring a Citizen
"nefas." This comes after argument that was heated *on both sides*. This is going to
send a very clear message to the Citizens all right... argue with, anger or
disagree with a Pontifex, and you will be punished. I'm sure that will make
this body very popular indeed with the Citizens.

4. This is still coming at a bad time - tempers on the main list are still
not good. We've had ten people unsubscribe over the last week... do we really
want to come out with a negative decretum that singles out an individual for
punishment? Not to mention that we're a bunch of men "passing judgment" on a
woman. I really think that we're opening a can of worms with this one.
*************************************************************
Q. Fabius Maximus - VTI ROGAS
This "person" must go.
1. Publically she has mocked the Pontifices (You mock one of us, you mock us
all)
2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if College
instructed her otherwise.
3. Publically suggested that a Nova Roman Citizen be killed even though she
later said it was humor.
4. This citizen was a Pontifice.
5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR "conversion" seems
more political than religious
6. Believes that because she's friends of the faction in power, she can get
away with these statements. (Based on a private e-mail conversation.)
7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as Sacerdote if
all her beliefs were known. She falsified her application. We are just
repairing a mistake.
***************************************************************

There were other conversations in the Collegium prior to these votes, but the
above posts seem an accurate summation of how and why the decision was made.

The Collegium Pontificum goes through a discussion period just as the Senate
does, issues are certainly discussed well and the various points are
considered by all. The discussion regarding Sp. Fabia Vera took some days before the
vote was called.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24256 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Fwd: Re: Money... lots of money for Nova Roma... for what?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Salve Consul, salvete Quirites:
Pontifex Gryllus posted about this on the Religio list last
September I believe, and I will look for his posts, where he quotes
the history of Numa, with passages, and disagrees with Scaurus.
This was critical for me in the Religio as I am a firm animal-
lover, vegetarian and also buddhist. I will NEVER do such a thing. If
it is required I will in all conscience resign my priesthood.
optime valete,
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
sacerdos Matris deum
--- End forwarded message ---
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24257 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
---Salvete Omnes:

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit
>
> (snipped for brevity)
>
> Your comment, "Remember all cives by building NR are pleasing the
gods, something the CP via Modius warns me to keep quiet off-list."
baffles me. I am no official spokesperson for the Collegium
Pontificum, no more than any other Pontifex or Flamen. Your use of
"name-dropping" to attempt to discredit me is a feeble ploy to yet
again, "rally the citizens of Nova Roma" to support you.

Pompeia: Regarding the use of 'name dropping', Pontifex Modius, as
you define it...did you privately issue such a statement to attempt to
curtail Fabia Vera's use of the above sentiment? If so, what would be
your rationale for doing so? I know you had private contact with her,
such was mentioned on the list, but that was as Tribune. And I
thought that was about a dispute with Drusus. Is there another
occasion? I would like to here more, as a tax paying citizen,
please. Fabia Vera, could you enlighten us further please?

"Remember all cives by building NR are pleasing the Gods'...why would
that be regarded by our priests as such a caustic statement? Why
would the Collegium be so worried about this, given that this
statement is rather reconcillable with the Constitution, re the
Discrimination clauses and the Religios official attitude on other
religions,.. the very Constitution the Collegium is subject to as
well...?? Please expand ...I am waiting with baited breath....is
there another reason why the Collegium members are worried?
>
> Not being Boni had absolutely nothing to do with your removal from
the priesthood, and I would be willing to go under oath to attest to that.

Pompeia: Indeed, to attest via oath as to the thinking of other
persons is dangerous, and impossible. How can you assume what
another's thoughts are or what their actions will be unless you have
seen them ex factio...moreover, your 'oath' does not make the actions
of another any more truthful, or that person look any more perfect, it
just demonstrates that you believe that person so much that you
personally would oath to it.

Back to the point. I am not sure how you can _guarantee_ that the
Boniness of atleast some of the Pontifices in the Collegium didn't
weigh into this decision of dismissal, to 'some' extent, given that
one of the Pontificial judges has outrightly stated that 'all nonboni
can venerate his gluteus'' and the variety, multiplicity of posts from
Pontifices, priests of the Boni expressing blatently, or clearly
demonstrating difficulty coping with persons from other religious and
political walks, and equal difficulty coping with persons who are
Religio Practitioners who don't agree with them, like Fabia Vera.

I await your response about the statement of Fabia Vera citing you as
an individual, 'the CP via Modius' telling her to keep her religious
ideas, which seem quite constitutional to me, 'quiet' and away from
the ML. I want to know please.

Valete,
Pompeia


>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/31/2004 2:18:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rory12001@y... writes:
>
> > Remember all cives by building NR are pleasing the gods, something
> > the CP via Modius warns me to keep quiet off-list.
> > My cultus is foreign, I had not trial no warning, even the Vestal
> > Posthumia did, but worse I am being punished for something in antiqua
> > in my cult that never was punished! unconforming behavior!
> >
> > The pontifeces, especially the PM who is for me know my behavior is
> > just fine, I think the only person punished was Genucius a Roman
> > citizen who castrated himself to become a eunuch priest. He was
> > banished.
> >
> > Now I said I would never do blood sacrifce I never spoke of others,
> > and Iulia Vopisca is the sacerdos Maxima of our cult not me!
> >
> > So I am being punished as Fuscus says for not being Boni,
> > for being
> > for all cives of NR.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24258 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Gaius Modius Athanasius Pompeiae salutem dicit

I sent the following private e-mail to Fabia Vera on May 8th:

-----
You have made several statements in the past few days. What specifically are you apologizing for; what error have you acknowledged?

You should also consider making a formal apology to Scaurus. You might also consider toning down your attack on other Priests of Nova Roma. Feel free to discuss your feelings on the NRPriesthood list (which you should be subscribed to), but posting statements on the main list as if you have the authority to make policy on the Religio is a practice you might consider avoiding.

Additionally, this is a private post and I request that you keep it private.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
-----

As Flamen Pomonalis I have been on the Collegium Pontificum list for over a year now, and was aware of the debates going on. I sent the above private e-mail in hopes that she would tone down some of her anti-authority e-mails and that she would apologize for her behavior towards Scaurus, and towards the ceremony Scaurus performed to Concordia (were he conducted an animal sacrifice).

She refused to issue an apology, even after Consul Marinus suggested she do so. She did not curtail her comments against the Collegium Pontificum and their authority. She remained steadfast in your opposition. As a tribune, I care about all Plebiaen citizens -- even if I do not personally like them.

In my private post to Fabia Vera I offered suggestions, and points for her to consider. Not once did I command her, or demand anything from her. Believe it or not, it was an sign of compassion on my part. Saddly to say, she did not take my advice and she is no longer a sacerdos. Additionally, she did not respect my request for the e-mail to remain private.

Being a priest in Nova Roma is no game. It is a very serious responsibility.

I hope that answers your question?

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/31/2004 6:47:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pompeia_minucia_tiberia@... writes:

> I await your response about the statement of Fabia Vera citing you as
> an individual, 'the CP via Modius' telling her to keep her religious
> ideas, which seem quite constitutional to me, 'quiet' and
> away from
> the ML. I want to know please.
>
> Valete,
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24259 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
---Salve Pontifex Modius:

I thank you very much for your prompt response and attention.

Vale
Pompeia Minucia Tiberia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Pompeiae salutem dicit
>
> I sent the following private e-mail to Fabia Vera on May 8th:
>
> -----
> You have made several statements in the past few days. What
specifically are you apologizing for; what error have you acknowledged?
>
> You should also consider making a formal apology to Scaurus. You
might also consider toning down your attack on other Priests of Nova
Roma. Feel free to discuss your feelings on the NRPriesthood list
(which you should be subscribed to), but posting statements on the
main list as if you have the authority to make policy on the Religio
is a practice you might consider avoiding.
>
> Additionally, this is a private post and I request that you keep it
private.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> -----
>
> As Flamen Pomonalis I have been on the Collegium Pontificum list for
over a year now, and was aware of the debates going on. I sent the
above private e-mail in hopes that she would tone down some of her
anti-authority e-mails and that she would apologize for her behavior
towards Scaurus, and towards the ceremony Scaurus performed to
Concordia (were he conducted an animal sacrifice).
>
> She refused to issue an apology, even after Consul Marinus suggested
she do so. She did not curtail her comments against the Collegium
Pontificum and their authority. She remained steadfast in your
opposition. As a tribune, I care about all Plebiaen citizens -- even
if I do not personally like them.
>
> In my private post to Fabia Vera I offered suggestions, and points
for her to consider. Not once did I command her, or demand anything
from her. Believe it or not, it was an sign of compassion on my part.
Saddly to say, she did not take my advice and she is no longer a
sacerdos. Additionally, she did not respect my request for the e-mail
to remain private.
>
> Being a priest in Nova Roma is no game. It is a very serious
responsibility.
>
> I hope that answers your question?
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 5/31/2004 6:47:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y... writes:
>
> > I await your response about the statement of Fabia Vera citing you as
> > an individual, 'the CP via Modius' telling her to keep her religious
> > ideas, which seem quite constitutional to me, 'quiet' and
> > away from
> > the ML. I want to know please.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24260 From: Michael Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Decision Process of the Decretum
G. Equitius Cato M. Cassi Iuliano Pontiex Maximus S.D.

Salve, Pontiff.

Thank you. I very much appreciate your taking the time to make the
discussion open. I must admit that I agree with the dissenting
opinion (please, no flames), but at least now the citizens have a
clearer picture of what happened, and can base their opinions on the
subject with more intelligent reasoning.

vale bene,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato writes:
>
> Rather, my concern is primarily with due process under the law. It
> seems to me that if Fabia has no problem with airing the charges
> against her in a public forum, so as to mount some sort of a
defense, then
> the College should have no problem spelling out those charges and
their process
> of decision-making.
>
>
> Salve,
>
> There were only two views on the Decretum regarding Sp. Fabia Vera;
mine and
> that of the entire rest of the Collegium Pontificum. So that the
process may
> be understood, I will post the summations of the two arguments that
were given
> during the vote. Q. Fabius Maximus gave the most organized
summation of the
> view held by the rest of the Pontifices. I do not believe any other
Pontifex
> raised any other major issues not covered in the two summations.
>
> My post was the first in the vote, so I present it first. I believe
my points
> were considered by the other Pontifices before they voted. I
provide it here
> as a record of the dissenting opinion:
>
> ******************************************************************
> Marcus Cassius Julianus - ANTIQUO
> No offense to Scarus, but this Decretum would be dangerous at any
time, and
> is particularly dangerous in the way it's being done. We may all
agree that
> Fabia Vera isn't an ideal or even particularly desired member of
the Priesthood,
> but that doesn't mean we shouldn't follow an above board and
forthright
> procedure. Here are some thoughts:
>
> 1. Fabia Vera received no *official* communications from the
Collegium
> regarding her behavior, so she has in fact never declined an order
or request from
> the guiding body of NR itself.
>
> 2. Fabia Vera has not been informed that she is under review, nor
has she
> been given any opportunity to defend herself before this body.
>
> 3. We'll be setting a first-time precedent here - declaring a
Citizen
> "nefas." This comes after argument that was heated *on both
sides*. This is going to
> send a very clear message to the Citizens all right... argue with,
anger or
> disagree with a Pontifex, and you will be punished. I'm sure that
will make
> this body very popular indeed with the Citizens.
>
> 4. This is still coming at a bad time - tempers on the main list
are still
> not good. We've had ten people unsubscribe over the last week... do
we really
> want to come out with a negative decretum that singles out an
individual for
> punishment? Not to mention that we're a bunch of men "passing
judgment" on a
> woman. I really think that we're opening a can of worms with this
one.
> *************************************************************
> Q. Fabius Maximus - VTI ROGAS
> This "person" must go.
> 1. Publically she has mocked the Pontifices (You mock one of us,
you mock us
> all)
> 2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if
College
> instructed her otherwise.
> 3. Publically suggested that a Nova Roman Citizen be killed even
though she
> later said it was humor.
> 4. This citizen was a Pontifice.
> 5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her
NR "conversion" seems
> more political than religious
> 6. Believes that because she's friends of the faction in power,
she can get
> away with these statements. (Based on a private e-mail
conversation.)
> 7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as
Sacerdote if
> all her beliefs were known. She falsified her application. We are
just
> repairing a mistake.
> ***************************************************************
>
> There were other conversations in the Collegium prior to these
votes, but the
> above posts seem an accurate summation of how and why the decision
was made.
>
> The Collegium Pontificum goes through a discussion period just as
the Senate
> does, issues are certainly discussed well and the various points
are
> considered by all. The discussion regarding Sp. Fabia Vera took
some days before the
> vote was called.
>
> Vale,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24261 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit

The 72 hour time period for Tribune Intercessio has come and gone, the decretum was promulgated on 8:50 AM EST on Friday May 28th, 2004. Some might say that the decretum was "corrected" and resent by the Pontifex Maxiumus. Only the commentary of the Pontifex Maximus was changed and resent, the actually text of the decretum did not change between the original post and the corrected post -- only his commentary on the decretum changed. So it is reasonable to assume the original time of 8:50 EST is still valid.

Furthermore, according to the Constitution:

"To issue decreta (decrees) on matters relevant to the Religio Romana and its own internal procedures (such decreta may not be overruled by laws passed in the comitia or Senatus consultum)."

At this point it is unconstitutional for a Tribune to honor your appeal to Comitia, as a decreta cannot be overruled by Comitia. Additionaly, as I have stated a Tribune cannot issue an intercessio against the decreta as the time period for doing so has expired.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis

In a message dated 5/31/2004 3:43:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rory12001@... writes:

> ACCORDING TO THE ROMAN USE, TO THE MOS MAIORUM, I USE THE RIGHT OF
> APELO TO THE PEOPLE AND APPEAL THE DECISION TO THE TRIBUNE
> PLEBIS AND
> TO THE JUDGEMENT OF THE COMITA.
>
> SPURIA FABIA VERA FAUSTA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24262 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
And the other posts? where I quote from John Scheid. I do respect
privacy, unlike other pontifeces I do not post people's private
emails on the ML nor do I curse non-Boni as 'fellatores' nor do I
libel people.
Shoot, I just conduct my rites to Magna Mater impeccably & quote
from this book John Scheid "Roman Religion"

"A Religion Ruled by the Ideal of Liberty"

"The principle by which it was ruled, in the historical period at
least, was a civic rationality that guaranteed the liberty and
dignity of its members both human and divine. That article
of 'faith', virtually the only one know to Roman religion, was
constantly affirmed and defended by authorities and thinkers alike.

"In the name of that same principle, people cold all honour the gods
and practice whatever cults they chose, providing they respected the
public cult and its pre-eminence, public order, and the liberty of
others" p.28
"Those who were called priest were not, in any case, 'men of god'
or people devoted entirely to the service of the deity......As a
general rule, a priest was a citizen like any other." p.130

This book over at the Religio List was described by Scaurus, the PM
and others as our "Handbook" "Guide to the Religio" we are even
discussing it over at the "Religio Book Group".
These are the posts that get me in trouble with private emails, I
follow the Religio of Mos Maiorum.
vale
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24263 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Attention Modius et Fabia Vera..... An Explanation of the Decr
Salvete; oh I forgot I also went to the priests' list in a spirit of
Concordia & wrote so, I never received any help to resolve this.
Someone with access to the NRPriest's List is given my permission
to post the email as I unsubbed at my dismissal.


Salve
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24264 From: Al E Keller Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: curious....
Hey I've just been wondering while describing NR to an old friend of
mine. Are we really non-profit and are we legit and stuff? Are we
registered with the IRS? I'm just wondering.....

L Porticus Brutus

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yelbrim Skrain Bodak
Intelligence/Communications
DCS Ravek / Marnak, 7th Order

________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24265 From: Euphemia Cassia Mercuria Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Salvete omnes,

As a fairly new citizen of Nova Roma, I would merely like to say "Here, Here!" in response to Gallus Popillius Cicero's comments. I joined after meeting with my paterfamilias, Marcus Cassius Julianus, and several other Nova Romans. I had been actively worshipping Mercurius and the other noble Immortals for many years, and was intrigued and eager to meet and interact with others who shared the same views on life, the universe, and everything. I have high hopes for Nova Roma and her people, and feel sad that so much petty bickering and mean-spirited commentating occur. Although I cannot offer any solutions, I would like to say that I love Nova Roma and the ideas behind her, and look forward to our future together.

Valete,

Euphemia Cassia Mercuria



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24266 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
The decree of the Curule Aediles for the Ambarvalia stopped the 72
hours from the Pontifex Maximus's decree; they are not finished!

IT was impossible to post an Apelo and reasons during the
Ambarvalia, , the Curule Magistrates issued an edictum against it.
The Tribunes could not act either.

The Magistrates & Pontiff posted this law and stayed time for 24
hours; the Time for Intercessio is still on!

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit
>
> The 72 hour time period for Tribune Intercessio has come and gone,
the decretum was promulgated on 8:50 AM EST on Friday May 28th,
2004. Some might say that the decretum was "corrected" and resent by
the Pontifex Maxiumus. Only the commentary of the Pontifex Maximus
was changed and resent, the actually text of the decretum did not
change between the original post and the corrected post -- only his
commentary on the decretum changed. So it is reasonable to assume
the original time of 8:50 EST is still valid.
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24267 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: curious....
Salvete Quirites,

L. Porticus Brutus asks:

> Are we really non-profit and are we legit and stuff? Are we
> registered with the IRS?

Yes. We're a registered 501c(3) non-profit corporation, registered
in the State of Maine, USA.

Valeate Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24268 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
In a message dated 5/31/04 1:40:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
equestria@... writes:

> It's unfortunate that you feel it needs to be that "sad fact yet true" and
> no other option.

My friend, I have been here six years. I'll be here another six. I see
nothing changing as long as the citizens have diverse opinions. One day, a
balance will be reached, and once
again we will lurch forward. Baby steps. Virgil said "Rome wasn't built in
a day." One would think back engineering this would be rather easy. It is.
We just forgot to take in the human factor.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24269 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-05-31
Subject: List unsubbing
Salvete omnes,

I saw a statement in Pontifex Cassius' statement about 10 people
leaving the list over the last week or so. The list is behaving
rather funny though since it seems to be fluctuating between 694 and
700 souls over the last several days. Some go, others must be coming
at the same time.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus