Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Jun 1-3, 2004

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24270 From: gnaeuscrassus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Book
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24271 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Comments about the PM's post and variuos things.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24272 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Book
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24273 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24274 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: About the intercessio period (Was: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Apelo! Appea
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24275 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Let's Boil It Down
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24276 From: L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: *IMPORTANT* NOV ROMAN RALLY IN SEGOVIA 2757
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24277 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: About the intercessio period 2
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24278 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24279 From: L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Segovia 2757; Website for more information
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24280 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24281 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: About the intercessio period 2
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24282 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24283 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Polls are closed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24284 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Let's Boil It Down
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24285 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Question: Dies nefasti and edicts, vetoes, senatusconsulta, &c.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24286 From: M.ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24287 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24288 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24289 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Book
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24290 From: leckmiamoasch Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Book
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24291 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24292 From: M.ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24293 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: [Fwd: [NovaRomaProvinciae] File - Monthly List Refreshment]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24294 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XIII - Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24295 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Let's Boil It Down
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24296 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1318
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24297 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24298 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24299 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24300 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Love the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24301 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24302 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24303 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Comments about the PM's post and various things.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24304 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24305 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Comments about the PM's post and various things.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24306 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: To Senator Drusus About the intercessio period 2
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24307 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24308 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Decision Process of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24309 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: : Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24310 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24311 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: : Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24312 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24313 From: titusiuliusfalconius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Greetings to All. Questions of Interest
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24314 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Dru
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24315 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24316 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24317 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1318
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24318 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Post 22150# April 14th, Fausta on Sacrifice
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24319 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24320 From: Manius Constantinus Serapio Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24321 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24322 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24323 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Dru
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24324 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1318
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24325 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24326 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24327 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Comments about the PM's post and various things.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24328 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24329 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: question to the Collegium
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24330 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Dru
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24331 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24332 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24333 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and Po Responds to Equitius Cincinnatus Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24334 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re Comments to Consul Equitius: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24335 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24336 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24337 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24338 From: Julia Cybele Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: My dupondius worth ...Re: Apelo for...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24339 From: Equestria Iunia Laeca Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24340 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and Po Responds to Equitius Cincinnatus Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24341 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and Po Responds to Equitius Cincinnatus Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24342 From: Pat Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24343 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Some comments on the dismissal of Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24344 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Mock Trial I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24345 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Greetings to All. Questions of Interest
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24346 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Sundials
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24347 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24348 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: About the Oath of Office for provincial and local magistrates.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24349 From: Petrus Domitianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: last Senatus voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24350 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24351 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24352 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24353 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: ante diem IV Nonae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24354 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24355 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: About the Oath of Office for provincial and local magistrates.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24356 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24357 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: About the Oath of Office for provincial and local magistrates.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24358 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24359 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24360 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24361 From: Petrus Domitianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24362 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24363 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24364 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Abou the meaning of the "Punishment"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24365 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24366 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24367 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24368 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24369 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: An Apology
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24370 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24371 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24372 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24373 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24374 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Re Comments to Consul Equitius: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24375 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Results of the Plebiscitum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24376 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24377 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24378 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Voting Results, Comitia Populi Tributa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24379 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24380 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24381 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Voting Results, Comitia Populi Tributa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24382 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Results of the Plebiscitum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24383 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Catholics and this issue
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24384 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Agreements, not laws!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24385 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24386 From: Agrippina Modia Aurelia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Results of the Plebiscitum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24387 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24388 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Voting Results, Comitia Populi Tributa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24389 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24390 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24391 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Voting results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24392 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24393 From: Kyrene Ariadne Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Some comments on the dismissal of Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24394 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24395 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: _An_appeal_to_Pontifices´_Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24396 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Re Comments to Consul Equitius: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24397 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24398 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24399 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24400 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24401 From: John Walzer Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: (Nova-Roma) Oath of Office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24402 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24403 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24404 From: Manius Constantinus Serapio Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Congratulations!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24405 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24406 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24407 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24408 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24409 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24410 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24411 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24412 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Oath of Office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24413 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Provocatio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24414 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24415 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: The Senate Meeting for May 2757
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24416 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Results of the Plebiscitum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24417 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A Correction:To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24418 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24419 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24420 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24421 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24422 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24423 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24424 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24425 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24426 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24427 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Fabia Vera and the CP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24428 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: (no subject)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24429 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: ante diem III Nonae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24430 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Pridie Kalendae Iunii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24431 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Codswallop
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24432 From: Pat Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24433 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24434 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Senate voting results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24435 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Senate voting results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24436 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Senate voting results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24437 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24438 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: The Senate Meeting for May 2757
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24439 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24440 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Senate voting results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24441 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Oath of Office
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24442 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: I´m mostly sad
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24443 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24444 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24445 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: I´m mostly sad



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24270 From: gnaeuscrassus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Book
Salve all

I have myself a small problem, i have heard of a book called Marcus
Crassus and the Late Roman Republic and it looks very good, but the
lowest price i have seen it at was $195.00. I was wondering:
a) If there are any sites w/ lower prices

b) does anyone else know any good books on Crassus.

Vale
Gn. Crassus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24271 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Comments about the PM's post and variuos things.
Ave Pontifex Maximus and omnes

Indeed, is a pity you have such a low opinion of me, as inded my opinion of you
is high and made higher by your last post.

I'll drop a couple of comments, but first I think I shall have to explain why a
non practitioner should, actually has, the right to comment on such things.

First of all, someone said a non practitioner should not have the right to
interfere with internal matters of the Religio as someone doesn't generally
doesn't have the right to “interfere” with another religion in general.
Opinable. If by interfere one means to actively take decisions and impose them
on the members of the different religion, I agree, but commenting about what
happens in another religion's hierarchy, or commenting on some other religionÂ’s
views and by civil discussion trying to influence a change or anyway try to
find a common ground is something that has always been done and is being done
nowadays. Maybe the Islamic and Jewish newspapers do not comment on the Pope's
election? Maybe the newspapers of catholic countries or its citizens didn't
comment about the anglican decision of having female priests? Don't the
protestants in US comment all the time about the choices of the catholic
church? And if we were back 2000 years, don't you think the non-practitioner
cives of Rome wouldnÂ’t' had commented in the forum about the public dismissal
of a sacerdos?

But there's more. While in most western countries what the religious hierarchy
does or does not has no direct influence on the civil life of the cives, in NR
the CP decree have an impact on the life of all the cives, practitioners or
not. Therefore, it is of interest for any civis, even the non practitioner one,
to know how the decision of the CP are taken and following what principles just
as much as it is teh interest of any civis to see how teh CP composition is
being changed because a more or less politicized Collegium (and I'm afraid the
Collegium, despite your efforts, seem to be more and more a political rather
than a religious body) will have a direct impact in his life.

I'm actually enraged by the comparison, made by Athanasios I think, of the non
practitioners cives of Nova Roma to the people who go and work in Saudi Arabia.
Those people are indeed guests of that country and rightly do not meddle with
its political and religious affairs, but the non practitioners of Nova Roma are
not guests of Nova Roma, we are citizens and we have all the right to comment
on the events affecting *our* institutions and trying to influence them, and
“our” means the institutions that are there BOTH for the practitioners and for
the non-practitioners. It is indeed this "we" against "you" attitude that at
least 4 of the pontifices tend to show (in different degrees), together, I'll
repeat it, with a more and more politicized look that the Collegium has been
taking over the last months, that eventually, as you said, doesnÂ’t make the
institution look all too popular among some of the cives.

Anyway, those being the reasons I think entitle the non-practitioners to comment
on the recent events seeing the Collegium as protagonist, I will add now a
couple of comments to your mail.

> ******************************************************************
> Marcus Cassius Julianus - ANTIQUO
> No offense to Scarus, but this Decretum would be dangerous at any time, and
> is particularly dangerous in the way it's being done. We may all agree that
> Fabia Vera isn't an ideal or even particularly desired member of the
Priesthood,
> but that doesn't mean we shouldn't follow an above board and forthright
> procedure. Here are some thoughts:
>
> 1. Fabia Vera received no *official* communications from the Collegium
> regarding her behavior, so she has in fact never declined an order or request
from
> the guiding body of NR itself.
>
> 2. Fabia Vera has not been informed that she is under review, nor has she
> been given any opportunity to defend herself before this body.

Which means that Fabia Vera has been summarily put to trial without any real
violation of any instruction, order, explicit rule of conduct set by the
Collegium. I think itÂ’s highly honorable for the head of the Collegium to admit
that in front of his collegues, but beyond commendation to reveal such
admission in front of the whole population. On the other hand, what should one
think of the Pontifices that in front of their supreme Collegue saying that,
decided to went ahead with what canÂ’t but be labeled as a secret trial against
someone who canÂ’t defend herself not based on a crime, but on her words in a
discussion that, as the PM says in the next point, was “ heated *on both
sides*. “ ?

> 3. We'll be setting a first-time precedent here - declaring a Citizen
> "nefas." This comes after argument that was heated *on both sides*. This is
going to
> send a very clear message to the Citizens all right... argue with, anger or
> disagree with a Pontifex, and you will be punished. I'm sure that will make
> this body very popular indeed with the Citizens.

CouldnÂ’t be more true.

> 4. This is still coming at a bad time - tempers on the main list are still
> not good. We've had ten people unsubscribe over the last week... do we really

> want to come out with a negative decretum that singles out an individual for
> punishment? Not to mention that we're a bunch of men "passing judgment" on a
> woman. I really think that we're opening a can of worms with this one.

One thing about the number of people connected to the list: personally, IÂ’ve
been temporarily unsubscribed twice over the last 2 weeks for technical
reasons: Yahoo “suspends” members if messages start to bounce, and that is
fine, but sometimes, when yahoo servers have problems (usually in coincidence
with lag in messages appearing, has it happened lately), that happens at
random. That makes the number of members of a group decrease, as it counts only
the members regularly subscribed, and raise again when the email gets
reactivated. The problem is that the reactivation of the email happens only
when the unsubscribed address replies to a “probe”, so it happens that, based
on my experience has owner of large groups, the less active members of the
list simply overlook the probe message and stay unplugged for a while until
they realize something is wrong. I think the decrease of members and the number
then going up again may partially be counted upon this phenomenon.

And now, Fabius Maximus...

> *************************************************************
> Q. Fabius Maximus - VTI ROGAS
> This "person" must go.
> 1. Publically she has mocked the Pontifices (You mock one of us, you mock us
> all)

Fabia Vera has mocked, in the middle of a quite heated discussion, a *person*.
She was wrong, of course, in doing that yet she said to sacrifice Scaurus, not
a Pontifex. Also, YOU have mocked Fabia Vera as well, in pretty similar terms
and inviting her to kill herselfÂ… You intended to mock her in person, not her
position as sacerdos, I presume, but following your reasoning, have you mocked
by that all the sacerdotes of NR?

And if Fabia Vera was to be punished for having mocked a pontifex, WerenÂ’t you
to be punished for having mocked a sacerdos? Or mocking a pontifex is bad,
while mocking a sacerdos is agreeable? HowÂ’s the term for someone who condemns
something and essentially does the same thing?

> 2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if College
> instructed her otherwise.

Yet, practically speaking, she didnÂ’t do anything, given the College didnÂ’t, as
the PM said, sent official instructions. I do not know how it is called in
English, but in Italian that is called “trial to the intentions” and is.. well,
not too well looked upon.

> 3. Publically suggested that a Nova Roman Citizen be killed even though she
> later said it was humor.

And YOU Fabius Maximus, essentially did the very same thing in message 23071.
With what face you condemn someone for something you have done yourself??

> 4. This citizen was a Pontifice.

Ah, so, if the civis is a pontifex is condemnable, if the civis is not a
pontifex, but just a sacerdos or an any civis, it can be tolerated?

> 5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR "conversion" seems
> more political than religious

And thatÂ’s, again, unless you are a mind-reader of some sort, another trial to
her intentions.

> 6. Believes that because she's friends of the faction in power, she can get
> away with these statements. (Based on a private e-mail conversation.)

Either one of the twoÂ… either you provided the private mails to the discussion
to support yourstatement, and thatÂ’s not exactly a good thing to do, or you
just dropped that affirmation without any evidenceÂ… I do not know what exactly
is the worse between the two things. Incidentally, would that kind of belief be
a punishable crime?

> 7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as Sacerdote if
> all her beliefs were known. She falsified her application. We are just
> repairing a mistake.

What beliefs? Her religious beliefs or her political ones? You asked her
specific questions and she answered affirming the false, by that “falsifying”
her application?

Having yourself, Fabius, essentially committed the things you blame under point
1 and 3, shall you punish yourself as well?


Vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24272 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Book
Ave Gneus Crassus

I doubt you will find it any cheaper. The official price was around 53$, but
apparently it has never been reprinted from the 70s and so it became a rarity.
To make an example, Amazon France sells it at over 400$.

You can try to locate it at a library close to you using

http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/28a8d1cda67f5e75.html

or searching by it's ISBN number (0826202160)

I think that might be your best chance to get your hands on the book without
paying a small fortune.

vale

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

Scrive gnaeuscrassus <gnaeuscrassus@...>:

> Salve all
>
> I have myself a small problem, i have heard of a book called Marcus
> Crassus and the Late Roman Republic and it looks very good, but the
> lowest price i have seen it at was $195.00. I was wondering:
> a) If there are any sites w/ lower prices
>
> b) does anyone else know any good books on Crassus.
>
> Vale
> Gn. Crassus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24273 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit

I'm afraid not. The decreta was issued on Friday and the Ambarvalia was Saturday. An intercessio could have been issued on Friday, Sunday, or early on Monday. I'm sorry, but an edict by a Curule Aedile does not stop or postpone the 72 hour time period for intercessio, there is no 24 extension to the time for intercessio.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis

In a message dated 5/31/2004 9:08:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rory12001@... writes:

> The decree of the Curule Aediles for the Ambarvalia stopped the 72
> hours from the Pontifex Maximus's decree; they are not finished!
>
> IT was impossible to post an Apelo and reasons during the
> Ambarvalia, , the Curule Magistrates issued an edictum against it.
> The Tribunes could not act either.
>
> The Magistrates & Pontiff posted this law and stayed time
> for 24
> hours; the Time for Intercessio is still on!
>
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24274 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: About the intercessio period (Was: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Apelo! Appea
Ave Omnes

Technically speaking, the edict about Fabia Vera might had never made official
and therefore the 72 hours period could very well have not been triggered yet.
I'll explaim.

I do not know if volountarly or by mistake, the Pontifex Maximus didn't issue
that decree on this mailing list (I've checked the mailing list archive and I
didn't find it, I might be wrong tho, of course) but issued it on the Religio
list, which I'm not exactly sure it's a public venue (and even if it is public,
I wonder if it can be considered official), just as much I'm not sure all the
tribunes are subscribed there.

Now, if a decree can be issued on any mailing list in order to have the period
for intercessio "triggered", I'd like to have a full and complete list of all
the NR lists that are or can be considered official venues because even, for
instance, a provincia ML is (probably) public, or the lists of the sodalitates
are, but I doubt they are fit to be considered "official" to trigger the 72
hours intercessio period.

If, on ther other side and as I think, this is the list where the decrees have
to be published, then the period hasn't even started yet, as the decree made it
on this list on friday by a forward by Fabia herself, which cannot be
considered an official announcement in any form.

Also, if, as I think, this is the place where sending decrees, it should then
be
considered who has to issue the decree to make it official. While it's clear
who has to issue the decree in the case of a magistrate (the magistrate
himself), in the case of a body it isn't so... if, as I think, it must be the
head of the body, again in this case the decree was never officially issued, if
it's just an any member of the body can officialize it, that should, I think,
be made clear.

Now, my own opinion (*my own* opinion, mind you ) is that the decree should be
issued, to make it official, over this mailing list (or maybe on the
announcement one, where I am not sure it has been issued either) and by the
head of the College, hence it has not been officially issued so far and the
intercessio period should, in this case, start from the moment the decree will
be finally officially issued.

Btw, I agree that the decree about Ambarvalia wouldn't had suspended the 72
hours period if it had been triggered. An Intercessio is no "ill-omen" word and
could have been issued, I think, just at any time.

Vale Bene

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

Scrive AthanasiosofSpfd@...:

> Gaius Modius Athanasius Spuriae Fabiae Verae Faustae salutem dicit
>
> I'm afraid not. The decreta was issued on Friday and the Ambarvalia was
> Saturday. An intercessio could have been issued on Friday, Sunday, or early
> on Monday. I'm sorry, but an edict by a Curule Aedile does not stop or
> postpone the 72 hour time period for intercessio, there is no 24 extension to
> the time for intercessio.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Tribunus Plebis
>
> In a message dated 5/31/2004 9:08:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> rory12001@... writes:
>
> > The decree of the Curule Aediles for the Ambarvalia stopped the 72
> > hours from the Pontifex Maximus's decree; they are not finished!
> >
> > IT was impossible to post an Apelo and reasons during the
> > Ambarvalia, , the Curule Magistrates issued an edictum against it.
> > The Tribunes could not act either.
> >
> > The Magistrates & Pontiff posted this law and stayed time
> > for 24
> > hours; the Time for Intercessio is still on!
> >
> > Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24275 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Let's Boil It Down
G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

Salvete, omnes.

In this whole discussion of Fabia's dismissal as a sacerdote of the
cult of the Magna Deorum Mater, it is essential to consider two
points:

1. The "crimes" of which Fabia is accused are not sui generis, i.e.,
they are not unique in and of themselves; many citizens, of all
stripe and persuasion, have made comments that are, substantively,
the equivalent of that which Fabia has declared was meant humorously.
Abuse of the most base kind has been hurled by parties of both
ideologies, so that the claim "she said a terrible thing about X
(substitute your most valued supporter in discussion)" has little or
no legal foundation. As the Nazarene most famously said, "Let he who
is without sin cast the first stone". Are the accusers/judges of
Fabia so blameless, so innocent before the Gods, that they would
claim a moral "higher ground"? In all humility, I remind our
vemnerable pontiffs that hubris is the first and foremost of those
qualities that the Gods punish most strenuously. To succumb to a
feeling of power fueled only by one's self-righteousness is by far
the most perilous of foundations. To use the pontiff Q. Fabius
Maximus' words that an insult to a single pontiff is an insult to the
College as a whole, I must reply that that is a particularly feeble
fallacy; a remark made to an individual is under no circumstances to
be construed, logically, as a remark to a whole body. To believe so
is an unsupportably intransigient belief that the "whole" body is of
a singular and intractable opinion; a belief belied (in this
particular case) by the fact the the Pontifex Maximus himself
disagreed with his colleagues, and has given evidence thereof in
public.

2. The issue of Fabia's remark vis-a-vis Scaurus is, in its essence,
an issue between two individuals, and by any stretch of
constitutional or corporate law, must by necessity be resolved by
those two individuals within the realm of saecular, not religious,
law, either by arbitration or by a trial-by-jury. If Scaurus felt
particularly offended, then he should, by rights, have appealed to
the saecular law; to involve the religious arm of the state is the
hallmark of a State in which personal freedoms are held to be
subservient to the will of the religious authorities therein. By
Scaurus' own words themselves, he chose to keep silent, biding his
time, when he had every available opportunity to address the issue
himself, in public.

Of no doubt is the fact that our pontifex, Scaurus, has apparently
been the recipient of vile and unwarranted attacks by person or
persons as yet unkown; there are no words that could possibly
encompass the cruelty and baseness of the entities responsible. We
should, as citizens of a free Republic, denounce and (when
discovered) offer up those persons to be prosecuted to the fullest
extent of macronational law. I would myself stand with Scaurus in a
court of (U.S.) law to give evidence of the pain and hardship he has
suffered emotionally. Scaurus should very rightly feel a fury beyond
comprehension that someone would abuse him in this way, and we as his
fellow-citizens should stand shoulder-to-shoulder with him in our
common disgust at this treatment of one of our own.

However (and by this I mean in no way whatsoever to diminish the
extent to which this particular [via email] attack on Scaurus has
affected him) I cannot help but think that there has been an unusual
and unfortunate confluence of events here:

Fuscus, after having felt insulted by Scaurus to a point beyond which
he, as an individual and citizen, decided that he was no longer
willing to accept it, brought suit against Scaurus, within the
boundaries established by Nova Roman law.

Fabia announced her innate Buddhism/Hinduism/Animism and resultant
abhorrence of the sacrifice of living creatures, perhaps in
discordance with her declared position as regards her priesthood
within NR. This was followed by an (admittedly) tasteless joke
regarding our pontiff Scaurus.

Scaurus, our pontiff, is receiving hateful email regarding his
position on various topics within NR and in particular, the religio,
and (to a great extent understandably) snapped.

This unholy trinity of circumstances leads to a rash of vitriol
against Fuscus, the resignation of our pontiff Scaurus in disgust,
and the dismissal of Fabia from her priesthood.

My final feeling regarding all of this is:

1. If Fuscus feels that his suit against Scaurus is valid, he has
every right, under our accepted legal framework, to pursue it.

2. If Scaurus needs our support (emotionally or otherwise) against
the cowardly and nefarious attacks via e-mail, as his fellow-citizens
and persons for whom he offers himself daily to the Gods for the
preservation and enrichment of the State, we give him that without
question or hesitation.

3. If Fabia feels that she has unjustly or illegally (again, under
the framework of the law of Nova Roma, not Roma Antiqua) been
dismissed, that she be given every opportunity to address it within
the legal guideposts afforded all citizens.

4. That we regard the law as above religious or political
differences, seeking truly only justice and Concordia in the State.
Naive as it may seem, and perhaps unacceptably "modern", I believe
that the law can guide us in a path of moderation and accountability.

May the Gods look favourably upon us as we seek wisdom.

valete,

Cato, the Trying-Very-Hard-To-Be-Balanced-And-Maybe-Not-Succeeeding-
But-Willing-To-Give-It-A-Shot
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24276 From: L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: *IMPORTANT* NOV ROMAN RALLY IN SEGOVIA 2757
Salvete omnes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ESPAÑOL]

Este mensaje es para recordar a todos aquellos que tengan intención de acudir al encuentro provincial de Hispania en Segovia, dentro del Encuentro Europeo de 2757 (2004) los días 6-7 y 8 de agosto, que es necesario hacer aun el pago de la Casa Rural alquilada a tal efecto. Los datos de la cuenta bancaria gestionada por el Praefectus Pecuniae Pro Tempore Minicius Catulus son:

____________________________________________________
IBAN: ES 3300815732051061907
SWIFT: BSABESBB

0081-5732-05-0001061907
JUAN MANUEL A. GARCIA MACIAS DE MONTEMAYOR

Banc de Sabadell, Agencia Ventisquero de la Condesa
____________________________________________________

Hoy es día 1 de junio. Sería deseable que para el día 30 se hubieran confirmado y hecho todos los pagos, para así poder gestionar más adecuadamente el encuentro.

En caso de duda, no dudéis en poneros en contacto con Minicius Catulus o Geminus Sceptius:

iconostasio@...
sceptia@...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ENGLISH]

This message is to remind all those who intend to go to Segovia in the European Rally of 2757 (2004) in August the days 6-7-8th, that there is still needed to make previous payment for the Rural House rented for it.
The payment shall be done to the Bank Account managed by the Praefectus Pecuniare Pro Tempore Minicius Catulus.

____________________________________________________
IBAN: ES 3300815732051061907
SWIFT: BSABESBB

0081-5732-05-0001061907
JUAN MANUEL A. GARCIA MACIAS DE MONTEMAYOR

Banc de Sabadell, Agencia Ventisquero de la Condesa
____________________________________________________

Today is tuesday first of June. It would be the best for all of us that payments could be done before deadline of 30th of June to manage more efficiently the meeting.

If you have any doubt, please do not hesitate and contact Micinius Catulus or Geminus Sceptius at:

iconostasio@...
sceptia@...



vale bene in pace deorum,

L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
PROPRAETOR·HISPANIAE


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24277 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: About the intercessio period 2
Salvete Omnes,
the Decretum "Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Priesthood" wasn't
published in this mailing list, the official public list. However
the Lex Octavia de Sermone says:

"a. Public fora under the jurisdiction of the Praetores shall
include the general discussion mailing list
(currently "novaroma@yahoogroups.com"), the announcements mailing
list (currently "novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com"), the web-based
message board linked to from www.novaroma.org, any chat system in
use on www.novaroma.org, and any other means of communications
designated as "public fora" by the Senate, except as detailed below."

This means that each official document must to be published in this
two mailing lists. Let's visit the archive of the NovaRoma-announce.
The Decretum was sent at Fri May 28, 2004 3:50 pm but it was
published in teh mailing list at Saturday May 29 in the early
afternoon (time of Rome).

So the time to intercessio will expire in a couple of hours.

However we should consider the correction sent 30 minutes after the
first message. It isn't a commentary, it's an official correction so
the Decretum started from this time.

This is my personal opinion

In my opinion the Ambarualia didn't influenced the time and it can't
stop the official duties of teh Tribunes.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24278 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is Kalendae Iunii and sacred to Iuno Moneta, Mars, Carna, Cardea,
the Tempestes, and Ilythia; the day is comitialis. This day is the
anniversary of the dedication of the temples of Iuno Moneta on the
Capitoline (344 BCE) of Mars on the Campus Martius near the Capena gate
(388 BCE), and of the Tempestes (259 BCE), the Goddesses of eather and
storms. It is also the occasion of minor festivals to Carna, the
Goddess of protection for the bodily organs, Cardea, the consort of
Ianus and Goddess of door hinges and health (and protector of children
from stirges) and Ilythia, the Goddess of easy childbirth. Carna was
worshipped by offerings of beans, spelt and bacon-fat. Cardea received
the offering of hawthorn in window and a thrice annointing of the door
hinges and household threshold with olive oil applied with arbutus
leaves. Ilythia received offerings of nine cakes, nine popana, and nine
phthoes cakes. Also on the Kalends a sacrifice to Iuno was made by a
Pontifex and the Rex Sacrorum in the Comitia Calabra after which a
Pontifex Minor would announce the date of the Nonae Maii. Shortly
thereafter the Regina Sacrorum made sacrifice to Iuno in the Regia.

Tomorrow is ante diem IV Nonae Iunii; the day is fastus.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24279 From: L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Segovia 2757; Website for more information
Salvete omnes;

[ESPAÑOL]

Olvidé mencionar que el ilustre ciudadano Constantino Serapio ha creado una página para dar información sobre el encuentro de Segovia. Está en:

http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/segovia

Creo que es un buen sitio que merece la pena visitar, así que a ello. :-)

[ENGLISH]

I forgot to mention that illustrus citizen Constantinus Serapio has built a website to give more information about the meeting. Is in:

http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/segovia

I think it is an excellent idea to visit it. It is well-builded and quite clear. :-)



vale bene in pace deorum,

L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
PROPRAETOR·HISPANIAE


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24280 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
=========================================
OATH OF OFFICE / JURAMENTO / IVS IVRANDVM
=========================================


I, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia), do
hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to
act always in the best interests of the People and the Senate of
Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
(Andrés Velasco de Galicia), swear to honor the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia),
swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would
threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia) swear
to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia),
further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of
the office of Aedilis Oppidi Compluti to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of
the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and
favor, do I accept the position of Aedilis Oppidi Compluti and
all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsabilities
attendant thereto.

In Hispania Provincia, June 1st, year 2004 of present Era, in
the consulship of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius
Marinus.

-------------------------

Yo, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia), por
la presente juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y
trabajar siempre por los legítimos intereses del Senado y del
Pueblo de Nova Roma.

Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
(Andrés Velasco de Galicia), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas
de Roma en mis actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes
Romanas en mi vida pública y privada.

Yo, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia),
juro mantener y defender la Religión Romana como Religión
Estatal de Nova Roma, y nunca actuar de manera que pueda
resultar amenazada su condición de Religión del Estado.

Yo, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia),
juro proteger y defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.

Yo, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia),
juro además cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del
cargo de Aedilis Oppidi Compluti, poniendo en ello toda mi
capacidad y habilidades.

Por mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma, en presencia de los
Dioses y Diosas del Pueblo Romano y por su voluntad y favor,
acepto la posición de Aedilis Oppidi Compluti y todos los
derechos, privilegios, obligaciones y responsabilidades que a
ella corresponden.

En Hispania, a 1 de junio de 2004 de la Era actual, en el
consulado de Gnaeus Salix Astur y Gnaeus Equitius Marinus.

-------------------------

Ego, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de Galicia) hac
re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro Populo
Senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter iuro.

Ego, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de
Galicia)officio Aedilis Oppidi Compluti Novae Romae accepto,
Deos Deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus me
culturum, et Virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me
persecuturum esse iuro.

Ego, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de
Galicia)Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et
numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid
detrimenti capiat iuro.

Ego, Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus (Andrés Velasco de
Galicia)officiis muneris Aedilis Oppidi Compluti me quam optime
functurum esse praeterea iuro.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram Deis Deabusque populi
romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Aedilis Oppidi
Compluti una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis
comitantibus accipio.

Hispaniae, Kalendas Iunias, anno MMDCCLVI ab Vrbe condita, Gnaeo
Salice Asture et Gnaeo Equitio Marino consulibus.

-------------------------


=====

H·RVTILIVS·I·FIL·R·NEP·CLVST·TRIB·BARDVLVS
PATER·GENTIS·RVTILIAE
CIVIS·NOVAE·ROMAE





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24281 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: About the intercessio period 2
---Salvete Francisce Apule, all other Tribunes and Consuls :

Thanks for the enlightenment about the timeframe; frankly, I had a
busy weekend, and I figured intercessio would have been called by now,
if there was a plan in place amongst the Tribunes. I am not being
sarcastic by any means, don't get me wrong, just stating facts.

I don't think I would be altogether erroneous in stating that by
Tribune Modius' posts on the issue that he was in a hurry to pronounce
intercessio.

However, I do think that Fabia Vera is entitled to Provacatio ad
Populum: B5 of the constitution:

"the right to appeal the decision of a magitrate which has a direct
negative impact upon that citizen to the Comitia Popli Tributa.
Semantics might be a problem as technically Pontiffs are not
magistrates per se, but this appeal is age old and a fundamental of
the Roman justice system....moreover this is justified further in
section 7:"

"The 'right' to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State
in matters of RELIGIOUS and social dispute occuring both within and
outside the direct jurisdiction of... (Nova Roma)"

The preamble states that the Constitution is the highest authority,
and when a lower authority comflicts with a higher authority, the
higher authority serves as the most legal and therefore acceptable.
By this, the decision of the collegium cannot interfere with rights
contained in the constitution, and therefore such rights as provocatio
and the 'right to seek assistance and advice in religious disputes'
from the state cannot be altered by them.

I am not quibbling over the Collegium's ability or authority to
discipline Fabia Vera, but the 'extent' to which she is being
punished, and how, in light of what the Pontifex Maximus wrote
yesterday, she was treated during these proceedings and the extent of
their judgement.

He indicated she received no advocacy, nor any official notice...'the
right to seek and receive assistance and advice' was not provided by
the Collegium in the form of advocacy

In 24263, Fabia Vera alluded to having written the Collegium for
advice in mediation of all this and received no assistance; if this
can be proven via her email to them...her rights under the
Constitution are being denied.

In message 24258 Tribune/Pontifex Modius alludes to having written her
privately and in an unsolicited fashion, but since by his own
admission he was not officially acting as her advocus, or offering his
services as such, this cannot be counted as officially appointed help.
Clearly, he was just, as he explains, being a lover of Plebs, more or
less.

There is no decretum under which a person may be deemed Nefas in
perpertuum, to wit, forbidden from holding an office for life in a
religious capacity. So, as in other areas of the Collegial
judgements, the Lex Salicia proceedings must be employed

It would seem to me, that if one were to be banned forever from the
Religious life, one would have to be deemed "blasphemous", and such
is a charge covered under the Lex Salicia. I submit that the
Collegium put the cart before the horse...they should have charged her
with Blasphemy, and requested the forumula take the wishes of the
collegium into account..


Even Exactio, Imprudens Dalo Mallo ( decretum addressing magistrates
refusing to submit auguries where they are indicated..see Religious
Decretum in the Tabularium) are subject to trial by the Lex
Salicia....why...why, isn't Fabia Vera entitled to the same degree of
judicial proceeding as someone whose 'really' done a 'major', like
failing to take auspices? All of these things are subject to trial,
advocacy and a vote....she did not receive these, by proper lawful
means ...and she is entitled to Provocatio.

Again, I am appealing the legal proceedings, and the gravity of the
sentence and I am not disputing the collegial authority to discipline
its members.. I am not excusing that what she did was entirely
appropriate...I do not believe she needs to 'hang' to satisfy justice,
religous, social, judicial or otherwise, as she admits that she did
not mean to blaspheme, but to joke, and unfortunately, it went over
like a lead balloon.

Consider this: I am a registered member of the College of
Nurses...they can discipline me, and tell me what I need to do to
correct my license standing and return to work, if I am behaving
improperly. If they wish to do any more than that, it goes to a court
of law, which is like out constitution and laws, it is the higher
voice on matters outside the juridiction of my practise as an RN...it
would be the same if I were a nun, a doctor, a minister, Wiccan
priestess, RR Priestess.

Tribunes, I will make an appeal for intercessio to the Tribunes, for s
a dismissal of the Collegial decisions as they stand and a proper
trial of this, OR,I will urge Fabia Vera to appeal for such under
Provocatio to the Consuls, and that is something I 'surely' hope, with
due respect and sincerity will not be vetoed, because it is a
fundamental right...no provacatio is unconstitutional, is it?

Pompeia (who will crosscopy this to the Consuls)




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
> the Decretum "Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Priesthood" wasn't
> published in this mailing list, the official public list. However
> the Lex Octavia de Sermone says:
>
> "a. Public fora under the jurisdiction of the Praetores shall
> include the general discussion mailing list
> (currently "novaroma@yahoogroups.com"), the announcements mailing
> list (currently "novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com"), the web-based
> message board linked to from www.novaroma.org, any chat system in
> use on www.novaroma.org, and any other means of communications
> designated as "public fora" by the Senate, except as detailed below."
>
> This means that each official document must to be published in this
> two mailing lists. Let's visit the archive of the NovaRoma-announce.
> The Decretum was sent at Fri May 28, 2004 3:50 pm but it was
> published in teh mailing list at Saturday May 29 in the early
> afternoon (time of Rome).
>
> So the time to intercessio will expire in a couple of hours.
>
> However we should consider the correction sent 30 minutes after the
> first message. It isn't a commentary, it's an official correction so
> the Decretum started from this time.
>
> This is my personal opinion
>
> In my opinion the Ambarualia didn't influenced the time and it can't
> stop the official duties of teh Tribunes.
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24282 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo! Appeal
Salve,

L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis ex officio,

Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta, the Tribunes are acknowledged of your asking
and we are working hard about.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
>
> ACCORDING TO THE ROMAN USE, TO THE MOS MAIORUM, I USE THE RIGHT
OF
> APELO TO THE PEOPLE AND APPEAL THE DECISION TO THE TRIBUNE PLEBIS
AND
> TO THE JUDGEMENT OF THE COMITA.
>
> SPURIA FABIA VERA FAUSTA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24283 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Polls are closed
The Rogator A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens,
greetings.

While we are always delighted to receive your votes,
I'm afraid the polls in both elections closed at 6pm
Roman time yesterday, so I must regretfully inform the
authors of votes number 937, 938, and 939 in the
comitia populi, and of votes 173, 174, and 175 in the
comitia plebis, that my colleagues and I will not be
able to count these votes towards the final result.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24284 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Let's Boil It Down
G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni S. P. D.

Salve, Cato.

I said yesterday that Sp. Fabia Vera's insult to me means absolutely
nothing to me. I cannot speak for Fabiu Maximus, but the majority of my
pontifical colleagues told me that the reasons for their support of the
decretum was her mockery of a caerimonia of the Religio and he refusal
to submit in ritual matters of the authority of the Collegium. It does
not matter to me what. Sp. Fabia Vera said about me. If she apologised
to me I would accept it with as grace as I could muster, but it would
not change the grounds on which decretum was adopted and the Collegium
acted. This is simply not a personal vendetta. It is a question of
whether a constitutionally established institution of the Religio is
going to cede its constitutional authority over all cults of the Reliio
to individual priests or permit the cults to be profaned by unfit
priests. I repeat here exactly what I said here yesterday, since your
summary does not appear to be talk into account that perspective:

There are several reasons for which the Collegium Pontificum chose to
expel Sp. Fabia Vera from the ranks of sacerdotes and to ban her from
ever again being numbered among them, but two are fundamental. The most
important is that she publicly mocked a caerimonia of the Religio. Her
joke was not accidental in mentioning Concordia, sacrifice, and me: it
was a direct allusion to a supplicatio to Concordia which I conducted
and which included a blood sacrifice. Without the allusion to that
supplicatio there is no joke to be had in her words. For all I care Sp.
Fabia Vera can tell the ML that I fornicate with dogs, the most I would
respond would be words in kind. But when jokes are made about the most
sacred rituals of the Religio and by a sacerdos no less, a line has been
crossed which cannot be uncrossed. For that alone a sacerdos should be
removed. However, Sp. Fabia Vera went further still and told citizens
that there would be no blood sacrifices in the public cult of Magna
Deorum Mater. It is the responsibility of the Collegium Pontificum to
set policy for all priesthoods and to regulate all public ritual
practices. That is Nova Roman law. It is not the place of a sacerdos
to arrogate that authority to herself, particularly in a cult in which
male priests frquently and bloodily sacrificed their testicles, blood
sacrifice was practiced Her principal festival, and in the imperial
period bathing in bull's blood was a common cultic act. Nor is it
proper for a sacerdos to insist that Plutarch's vision of the laws of
Numa be applied to a foreign cult brought to Rome long after Numa was
dead. The Collegium has tried to find a via media between those who
support and those who oppose blood sacrifice by permitting, but not
requiring it. When a sacerdos tells citizens that will never be
practised in the cult of a particular Goddess, she tells citizens that
any future sacerdos of the cult who chooses to perform blood sacrifice
is committing an improper act. It is precisely that mentality which the
Collegium sought to avoid in the decretum on blood sacrifice: we
attempted to provide a compromise on the issue which could accomodate
everyone. Sp. Fabia Vera sabotaged that attempt to build unity and
simultaneously set herself up in the cult of Magna Deorum Mater as an
authority independent of the Collegium Pontificum. If priests cannot be
counted upon to accept the authority of the Collegium in matters of
ritual practice, then there is no possibility of reconstructing the
Religio in any systematic way. It is her mockery of a caerimonia and
her refusal to accept the authority of the Collegium in ritual matters
which first and foremost motivated the Collegium's decision.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24285 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Question: Dies nefasti and edicts, vetoes, senatusconsulta, &c.
A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

The discussion of whether the Ambarvalia suspended or
interrupted the period of intercession made me wonder
about another question, concerning which I'd be
interested to hear the views particularly of pontiffs,
tribunes, and historians:

Do formal political and legal actions such as the
issuing of vetoes and the publication of edicts,
decrees, and senatusconsulta fall within the category
of business which is inappropriate to dies nefasti?

If so, presumably dies nefasti should not count toward
the 72-hour period for intercession, otherwise a
magistrate could make himself immune to veto by
issuing his edicts a minute or so before a run of
three consecutive dies nefasti.

Please note that this question has no bearing on any
current political events.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24286 From: M.ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
=========================================
OATH OF OFFICE / JURAMENTO / IVS IVRANDVM
=========================================


I, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), do
hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the People and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso),
swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso)
swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso),
further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities
of the office of Aedilis Oppidi Compluti to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of
the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will
and favor, do I accept the position of Aedilis Oppidi Compluti and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsabilities
attendant thereto.

In Hispania Provincia, June 1st, year 2004 of present Era, in
the consulship of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius
Marinus.

-------------------------

Yo, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso),
por la presente juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar siempre por los legítimos intereses del Senado y del Pueblo de Nova Roma.

Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida pública y privada.

Yo, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso),
juro mantener y defender la Religión Romana como Religión
Estatal de Nova Roma, y nunca actuar de manera que pueda
resultar amenazada su condición de Religión del Estado.

Yo, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso),
juro proteger y defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.

Yo, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso),
juro además cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades
del cargo de Aedilis Oppidi Compluti, poniendo en ello toda mi
capacidad y habilidades.

Por mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma, en presencia de los
Dioses y Diosas del Pueblo Romano y por su voluntad y favor,
acepto la posición de Aedilis Oppidi Compluti y todos los
derechos, privilegios, obligaciones y responsabilidades que a
ella corresponden.

En Hispania, a 1 de junio de 2004 de la Era actual, en el
consulado de Gnaeus Salix Astur y Gnaeus Equitius Marinus.

-------------------------

Ego, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso)
hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro Populo Senatusque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter iuro.

Ego, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso) officio Aedilis Oppidi Compluti Novae Romae accepto, Deos Deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus
me culturum, et Virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me
persecuturum esse iuro.

Ego, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso)
Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et
numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat iuro.

Ego, Marcus Adrianus Complutensis (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso)
officiis muneris Aedilis Oppidi Compluti me quam optime functurum esse praeterea iuro.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram Deis Deabusque populi
romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Aedilis Oppidi
Compluti una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis
comitantibus accipio.

Hispaniae, Kalendas Iunias, anno MMDCCLVI ab Vrbe condita,
Gnaeo Salice Asture et Gnaeo Equitio Marino consulibus.

-------------------------



M. ADR. COMPLVTENSIS
VERBA VOLANT

http://www.nrhispania.org
http://www.novaroma.org
http://www.mambri.com/legio/
http://nrhispania.org/blog/












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24287 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
> intercessio.
>
> However, I do think that Fabia Vera is entitled to Provacatio ad
> Populum: B5 of the constitution:
>
> Salvete omnes, Tribunes;
I am not so knowledgable in Roman Law as Pompeia Minucia Tiberia or
Domitius Constantinus Fuscus so I hereby also appeal under Provacatio
being able to appeal alternatively directly to the Comitia or under
the theory of Provacatio.


No trial, no justice


salve

Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24288 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
A. Apollonius Cordus to M. Adrianus Complutensis, and
to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

I think it's important to say for the record that
magistrates of oppida and municipia are not
magistrates of the central government, and are
therefore not obliged to swear the oath provided by
the lex Iunia. They are responsible not to Nova Roma
as a whole but only to their oppidum or municipium.

No harm done, and of course anyone is free to take any
oath he or she pleases; but, again, there is no need
for local magistrates to do so, or to post such oaths
to the main list.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24289 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Book
Salve Crasse,

I checked around the net for you and I am afraid I must come to the
same conclusion as Domitius. I checked out Bookfinder.com, they have
three copies but the prices are $173.00 to $208.00. As a rule of
thumb, if they don't have a particular book, no one will.
I often go to Antiquerian book stores and I'll certainly keep my
eyes open for that book. Try doing the same thing in your area
because sometimes you luck out.

By the way, I have been growling at some of our bookstores about the
high price of books lately. Even small hardcovers that were 20 - 30
dollars just yesterday seem to have gone up to the 40 - 60 range
(Canadian) The situation is even worse for specialty books from
Astronomy to Rome. I only buy new books when there are cross the
board sales but sadly good Roman history books do not appear on sale
often. The stores told me that prices were going up because the
market in book sales is falling thanks to the internet. Hopefully
this situation will reverse some day. I'll leave you a quote on this
subject:

"A room without books is like a body without a soul!" - Cicero

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave Gneus Crassus
>
> I doubt you will find it any cheaper. The official price was
around 53$, but
> apparently it has never been reprinted from the 70s and so it
became a rarity.
> To make an example, Amazon France sells it at over 400$.
>
> You can try to locate it at a library close to you using
>
> http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/28a8d1cda67f5e75.html
>
> or searching by it's ISBN number (0826202160)
>
> I think that might be your best chance to get your hands on the
book without
> paying a small fortune.
>
> vale
>
> DCF
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
>
> Scrive gnaeuscrassus <gnaeuscrassus@y...>:
>
> > Salve all
> >
> > I have myself a small problem, i have heard of a book called
Marcus
> > Crassus and the Late Roman Republic and it looks very good, but
the
> > lowest price i have seen it at was $195.00. I was wondering:
> > a) If there are any sites w/ lower prices
> >
> > b) does anyone else know any good books on Crassus.
> >
> > Vale
> > Gn. Crassus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24290 From: leckmiamoasch Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Book
Salve,
Maybe this helps,
Biblio sells it for 90 dollar,
http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=654970&src=frg

regards
chris
unrv.com


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Crasse,
>
> I checked around the net for you and I am afraid I must come to the
> same conclusion as Domitius. I checked out Bookfinder.com, they
have
> three copies but the prices are $173.00 to $208.00. As a rule of
> thumb, if they don't have a particular book, no one will.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24291 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
"Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@...> wrote:
Salve Cato;
this is something that I, the PM and others whose applications have
been turned down by the CP are keenly for: we are one! This us vs.
them mentality is abhorrent to me and there is no reason in the world
for you not to ask questions.
Rome was polytheistic, syncretic, etc everyone was welcome!

except Christians.....well until later.

MBA (



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24292 From: M.ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Oath of Office / Juramento / Ius Iurandum
M. Adrianus Complutensis to A. Apollonius Cordus,

Thanks for your explanation.

My best regards




M. ADR. COMPLVTENSIS
VERBA VOLANT

http://www.nrhispania.org
http://www.novaroma.org
http://www.mambri.com/legio/
http://nrhispania.org/blog/












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24293 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: [Fwd: [NovaRomaProvinciae] File - Monthly List Refreshment]
Salvete Quirites,

I'm cross-posting this monthly announcement from the Provincia mailing
list for the benefit of all new provincial magistrates who may not know
about it. Every governor (propraetor or proconsul), legate, and
provincial officer of any sort should be subscribed to NovaRomaProvinciae.

Valete,

-- Marinus

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [NovaRomaProvinciae] File - Monthly List Refreshment
Date: 1 Jun 2004 14:49:43 -0000
From: NovaRomaProvinciae@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: NovaRomaProvinciae@yahoogroups.com
To: NovaRomaProvinciae@yahoogroups.com


Salvete,

This is the monthly list refreshment for "Nova Roma Provinciae."

This list has been created to assist Nova Roma magistrates in
coordinating and growing the various Provinciae. This list is open to
Provincial Praetors, Propraetors, Proconsuls, Legates, and members of
the Nova Roma Senate.

The goals of this list include improving Provincial governance, sharing
ideas between Provinciae, encouraging Provincial events, the local
recruitment of Citizens, and much more. It will also be a support
network for the Provincial goverments, so that local magistrates can
share information and resources.

Together we can grow the Nova Roma Provinciae into thriving communities
where Citizens may meet face to face, attend events, build local
Sodalitas groups and more. It here that the real building of Nova Roma
may be done!

Members are invited to share ideas, raise questions, create job
descriptions for local offices, etc. Remember, if we don't keep working
at making the Provinciae better, Nova Roma itself cannot improve.

Valete,

Nova Roma Provinciae list moderator





Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24294 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XIII - Consul
Articles on Roman Government - XIII - Consul


This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

Consules
(originally Praetores, hupatoi). The Roman magistrates to whom the
supreme authority was transferred from the kings, after the expulsion
of the latter in B.C. 510. The consuls gave their name to the year.
They were elected by the Comitia Centuriata, and down to B.C. 366
from the patricians only. The legal age at which a man might be
elected was, in the time of Cicero, fortythree. The time of entering
on the office varied in the early periods: in B.C. 222, it was fixed
to March 15th; in 153, to the 1st of January. The accession of the
new consuls was attended with the performance of certain ceremonies,
among which may be mentioned a procession of the consuls to the
Capitol, with the Senate, equites, and other citizens of position, as
escort; an offering of white bulls to Iupiter, and the utterance of
solemn vows.

The consuls were the representatives of the royal authority, and
consequently all other magistrates were bound to obey them, with the
exception of the tribunes of the plebs and the dictator. During a
dictatorship their powers fell into abeyance. In the city their
authority was limited by the right of appeal to the people and the
veto of the tribunes. But in the army, and over their subordinates,
they had full power of life and death. Some of their original
functions passed from them in course of time. Thus in B.C. 444, the
business of the census was made over to the censors; in 366, the
civil jurisdiction within the city, so far as it included the right
of performing the acts of adoption, emancipation, and liberation of
slaves, was transferred to the praetors. In the field, however,
having the criminal jurisdiction in their hands, they had also the
right of deciding in civil cases affecting the soldiers. In the
general administration of public business the consuls, although
formally recognized as the supreme authority, gradually became, in
practice, dependent upon the Senate and the Comitia, as they had only
the power of preparing the resolutions proposed and carrying them out
if accepted. Within the city their powers were virtually confined to
summoning the Senate and the Comitia and presiding over their
meetings. They also nominated the dictators, and conducted the
elections and legislation in the Comitia and the levies of soldiers.
After the office of dictator fell into abeyance, the power of the
consuls was, in cases of great danger, increased to dictatorial
authority by a special decree of the Senate. See Comitia.

An essential characteristic of the consular office was that it was
collegial, and therefore if one consul died another (called consul
suffectus) was immediately elected. This consul suffectus had
absolutely the same authority as his colleague, but he had to lay
down his office with him at the end of the year for which the two had
been originally elected.

The power of the two consuls being equal, the business was divided
between them. In the administration of the city they changed duties
every month, the senior taking the initiative. With regard to their
insignia--namely, the toga praetexta, sella curulis, and twelve
lictors--the original arrangement was that the lictors walked in
front of the officiating consul, while the other was only attended by
an accensus. In later times the custom was for the lictors to walk
before the officiating consul and behind the other.

In the field each consul commanded two legions with their allied
troops; if they were in the same locality, the command changed from
day to day. The question of the administration of the provinces they
either settled by consent, or left it to be decided by lot. With the
extension of the Empire the consuls became unable to undertake the
whole burden of warfare, and the praetors were called in to assist.
The provinces were then divided into consular and praetorian; the
business of assignment being left to the Senate, which, after the
year 122, was bound to make it before the elections. In the first
century B.C., a law of Sulla deprived the consuls of an essential
element of their authority, the military imperium; for it enacted
that the consuls should spend their year of office in Rome, and only
repair to the provinces and assume the imperium after its conclusion.

In the Civil Wars the consular office completely lost its old
position, and though it continued to exist under the Empire, it
became, practically, no more than an empty title. The emperors, who
often held the office themselves, like Caesar, for several years in
succession, had the right of nominating the candidates, and
therefore, in practice, had the election in their own hands. It
became usual to nominate several pairs of consuls for one year, so as
to confer the distinction on as many persons as possible. In such
cases, the consuls who came in on January 1, after whom the year was
named, were called consules ordinarii, the consules suffecti counting
as minores. Until the middle of the first century A.D., it was a
special distinction to hold the consulship for a whole year; but
after that no cases of this tenure occur. In time the insignia
(ornamenta consularia), or honorary distinctions of the office, were
given, in certain degrees, even to men who had not been consuls at
all. The chief duties of the consuls now were to preside in the
Senate and to conduct the criminal trials in which it had to give
judgment. But, besides this, certain functions of civil jurisdiction
were in their hands, notably the liberation of slaves, the provision
for the costly games which occurred during their term of office, the
festal celebrations in honour of the emperor, and the like. After the
seat of empire was transferred to Constantinople, the consulate was,
towards the end of the fourth century, divided between the two
capital cities. The consulate of the Western capital came to an end
in A.D. 534, that of the Eastern in 541. From that time the emperor
of the East bore the title of consul perpetuus.

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.

CONSUL
CONSUL (hupatos), the highest republican magistrate at Rome. The
derivation of the name is still quite uncertain. It was derived by
the Romans from consulere: qui recte consulat, consul cluat (Varro,
L. L. v. § 80: cf. Cic. de Leg. iii. 3, 8; de Orat. ii. 39, 165), and
Corssen (Ausspr. ii. 71) admits this, connecting consulere itself
with the root sal in salire: others, while finding in consul the same
root, deny the connexion with consulere. Some, again, prefer the root
sed (sel), sit, or sal, dwell. (Cf. Nettleship in Journal of
Philology, iv. 272 ff.)

There was a tradition that king Servius, after regulating the
constitution of the state, intended to abolish the kingly power, and
substitute for it the annual magistracy of the consulship; and
whatever we may think of the tradition, the person who devised it
must have had a deep insight into the nature of the Roman state and
its institutions; and the fact that on the abolition of royalty it
was instituted forthwith, seems, at any rate, to show that it had
been thought of before. Thus much is also certain, that the
consulship was not a Latin institution, for in Latium the kingly
power was succeeded by the dictatorship, a magistracy invested with
the same power as that of a king, except that it lasted only for a
time.

The consulship which was established as a republican magistracy at
Rome, immediately after the abolition of royalty, showed its
republican character in the circumstance that its power was divided
between two individuals (imperium duplex), and that it was only of
one year's duration (annuum). This principle was, on the whole,
observed throughout the republican period; and the only exceptions
are, that sometimes a dictator was appointed instead of two consuls,
and that in a few instances, when one of the consuls had died, the
other remained in office alone, either because the remaining portion
of the year was too short, or from religious scruples (Dionys. v. 57;
Dio Cass. xxxv. 4), for otherwise the rule was, that if either of the
consuls died in the year of his office, or abdicated before its
expiration, the other was obliged to convene the comitia for the
purpose of electing a successor (subrogare or sufficere collegam). It
is only during the disturbances in the last century of the republic,
that, after Cinna's death, Carbo maintained himself as sole consul
for nearly a whole year (Appian, Bell. Civ. i. 78; Vell. Pat. ii. 24;
Liv. Epit. lxxxiii.); and that Pompeius was appointed sole consul, in
order to avoid the necessity of a dictator. (Ascon. ad Cic. pro Mil.
p. 37; Liv. Epit. 107; Appian, Bell. Civ. ii. 23, 25.) Even he, after
five months, had a colleague elected. On one occasion during the
Civil Wars Cinna and Marius, without any election at all, continued
to hold the power of the consulship for a second year. (Liv. Epit.
lxxx.)

Under the early emperors the practice as to the duration of the
consulship varied in the most arbitrary manner. (Mommsen, Staatsr.
ii. 79-81.)

In the earliest times, the title of the chief magistrates was not
only consules, but also praetores (Madvig, Verf. i. 368);
characterising them as the commanders of the armies of the republic.
Traces of this title occur in ancient legal and priestly documents
(Liv. vii. 3; Fest. p. 161), and also in the names praetorium (the
consul's tent) and porta praetoria in the Roman camp. (Paul. Diac. p.
123; Pseudo-Ascon. ad Cic. in Verr. i. 1. 4) It appears also to have
been the title used in the Twelve Tables (Plin. H. N. xviii. § 12).
After the introduction of the office of praetor urbanus, the consuls.
were known as praetores maximi (stratêgoi hupatoi), the praetors
strictly as praetores minores, though the last epithet was commonly
dropped, [p. 533] and they were known to the Greeks simply as
stratêgoi. Sometimes the consuls are designated by the title judices,
especially as presiding over the centuriate assemblies. (Varro, de L.
L. vi. 88; Liv. iii. 55.) After B.C. 449 (Zonar. vii. 19), the name
consules was the established title until the final overthrow of the
Roman empire. Upon the establishment of the republic, after the
banishment of Tarquin, all the powers which had belonged to the king
were transferred to the consuls, except that which had constituted
the king high priest of the state; for this was kept distinct and
transferred to a priestly dignitary, called the rex sacrorum, or rex
sacrificulus.

As regards the election of the consuls, it invariably took place in
the comitia centuriata, under the presidency of a consul or a
dictator; and, in their absence, by an interrex. The consuls thus
elected at the beginning of a year were styled consules ordinarii, to
distinguish them from the suffecti, or such as were elected in the
place of those who had died or abdicated, though the privileges and
powers of the latter were in no way inferior to those of the former.
(Liv. xxiv. 7, &c.; comp. xli. 18.) At the time when the consulship
was superseded by the institution of the tribuni militares consulari
potestate, the latter, of course, presided at elections, as the
consuls did before and after, and must in general be regarded as the
representatives of the consuls in every respect. It was, however, a
rule that the magistrate presiding at an election should not be
elected himself, though a few exceptions to this rule are recorded.
(Liv. iii. 35, vii. 24, xxiv. 9, xxvii. 6.) The day of the election,
which was made known by an edict three nundines beforehand (Liv. iii.
35, iv. 6, xlii. 28), naturally depended upon the day on which the
magistrates entered upon their office. The latter, however, was not
the same at all times, but was often changed. In general it was
observed as a rule, that the magistrates should enter upon their
office on the kalendae or idus, unless particular circumstances
rendered it impossible; but the months themselves varied at different
times, and there are no less than eight or nine dates at which the
consuls are known to have entered upon their functions, and in many
of these cases we know the reasons for which the change was made. The
real cause appears to have been that the consuls, like other
magistrates, were elected for a whole year; and if before the close
of that year the magistracy became vacant either by death or
abdication, their successors, of course, undertook their office on an
irregular day, which then remained the dies solennis, until another
event of a similar kind rendered another change necessary. The first
consuls entered upon their office on the ides of September, the day
on which in later years the praetor maximus drove the annual nail in
the temple of the Capitol; or, according to others (cf. Hartmann,
Röm. Kal. p. 228), traditionally on the kalends of March, but really
on the kalends of October. (Dionys. v. 1; Liv. vii. 3.) The first
change seems to have been brought about by the secession of the
plebs, B.C. 493, when the consuls entered upon office on the kalends
of September. (Dionys. vi. 49.) In B.C. 479, the day was thrown a
whole month backward; for of the consuls of the preceding year one
had fallen in battle, and the other abdicated two months before the
end of his year: hence the new consuls entered on the kalends of
Sextilis. (Dionys. ix. 13; Liv. iii. 6.) This day remained until B.C.
451, when the consuls abdicated to make room for the decemvirs, who
entered upon their office on the ides of May. The same day remained
for the two following years (Dionys. x. 56; Zonar. vii. 18; Fast.
Cap.); but the third year of the decemvirate not having been
completed, another day must have become the dies solennis. We have no
information what day it was, until in B.C. 443 we find that it was
the ides of December. (Dionys. xi. 63.) This change had been
occasioned by the tribuni militares who had been elected the year
before, and had been compelled to abdicate in the third month of
office, to make room for consuls. (Liv. iv. 7; Dionys. xi. 62.)
Henceforth the ides of December remained for many years the dies
solennis. (Liv. iv. 37.) In B.C. 401, the military tribunes, in
consequence of the defeat at Veil, abdicated, and their successors
entered upon their office on the kalends of October. (Liv. v. 9.) In
B.C. 391, the consuls entered upon their office on the kalends of
Quintilis. (Liv. v. 32; comp. 31, vii. 25, viii. 20.) From this time
no further change is mentioned, though several events are recorded
which must have been accompanied by an alteration of the dies
solennis, until in B.C. 223 we learn that the consuls entered upon
their office on the ides of March, which custom remained unaltered
for many years (Liv. xxii. 1, xxiii. 30, xxvi. 1, 26, xliv. 19),
until in B.C. 154 it was decreed that in future the magistrates
should enter upon their office on the 1st of January, a regulation
which began to be observed the year after, and remained in force down
to the end of the republic. (Liv. Epit. xlvii.; Fast. Praenest. Kal.
Jan.; cf. Mommsen, Chron. pp. 81-98.)

The day on which the consuls entered on their office determined the
day of the election, though there was no fixed rule, and in the
earliest times the elections probably took place very shortly before
the close of the official year, and the same was occasionally the
case during the latter period of the republic. (Liv. xxxviii. 42,
xlii. 28, xliii. 11.) But when the 1st of January was fixed upon as
the day for entering upon the office, the consular comitia were
usually held in July or even earlier, at least before the kalends of
Sextilis. (Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 6; ad Fam. viii. 4.) But even during
that period the day of election depended in a great measure upon the
discretion of the senate and consuls, who often delayed it. (Cic. ad
Att. ii. 2. 0, iv. 16; pro Leg. Man. 1.)

Down to the year B.C. 366, the consulship was accessible to none but
patricians, but in that year L. Sextius was the first plebeian consul
in consequence of the law of C. Licinius. (Liv. vi. 42; vii. 1.) The
patricians, however, notwithstanding the law, repeatedly contrived to
keep the plebeians out (Liv. vii. 17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 28), until in
B.C. 342 the legislation of Publilius Philo secured the firm
establishment of the plebeian consulship; and it is even said that at
that time a plebiscitum was passed, enacting that both consuls might
be plebeians. (Liv. vii. 42.) Attempts on the part of the patricians
to exclude the plebeians occur as late as the year [p. 534] B.C. 297
(Liv. x. 15; Cic. Brut. 14, 55); but they did not succeed, and it
remained a principle of the Roman constitution that both consuls
should not be patricians (Liv. xxvii. 34; xxxix. 42). The candidates
usually were divided into two sets, the one desirous to obtain the
patrician, and the other to obtain the plebeian place in the
consulship (in unum locum petebant, Liv. xxxv. 10). In B.C. 215, the
augurs indeed successfully opposed the election of two plebeians
(Liv. xxiii. 31); but not long after, in B.C. 172, the fact of both
consuls being plebeians actually occurred (Fast. Capitol.), and after
this it was often repeated, the ancient distinction between
patricians and plebeians falling completely into oblivion.

The consulship was throughout the republic regarded as the highest
office and the greatest honour that could be conferred upon a man
(Cic. pro Planc. 25, 60; Paul. Diac. p. 136; Dionys. iv. 76), for the
dictatorship, though it had a majus imperium, was not a regular
magistracy; and the censorship, though conferred only upon consulars,
was yet far inferior to the consulship in power and influence. It was
not till the end of the republic, and especially after the victories
of Caesar, that the consulship lost its former dignity; for in order
to honour his friends, he caused them to be elected, sometimes for a
few months, and sometimes even for a few hours. (Cic. ad Fam. vii. 3.
0; Sueton. Caes. 76, 80, Nero, 15; Dio Cass. xliii. 46; Macrob. Sat.
ii. 3.)

The power of the consuls was at first equal to that of the kings into
whose place they stepped, with the exception of the priestly power of
the rex sacrorum, which was detached from it. Even after the Valerian
laws and the institution of the tribuneship, the consuls who alone
were invested with the executive retained the most extensive powers
in all departments of the government. But in the gradual development
of the constitution, some important functions were detached from the
consulship and assigned to new magistrates. This was the case first
with the censorship in B.C. 443,--an office which at first was
confined to holding the census and registering the citizens according
to their different classes, but afterwards acquired very extensive
powers. [CENSOR] The second function that was in this manner taken
from the consuls was their judicial power, which was transferred in
B.C. 366 to a distinct magistracy under the title of the praetorship
[PRAETOR] ; and hence-forth the consuls appeared as judges only in
extraordinary cases of a criminal nature, when they were called upon
by a senatus consultum. (Cic. Brut. 34, 128; Liv. viii. 18, xxxix. 17
ff., xli. 9.) But, notwithstanding these curtailings, the consulship
still continued to be regarded as the representative of regal power.
(Polyb. vi. 11; Cic. de Leg. iii. 3, 8.)

In regard to the nature of the power of the consuls, we must in the
outset divide it into two parts, inasmuch as they were the highest
civil authority, and at the same time the supreme commanders of the
armies. So long as they were in the city of Rome, they were at the
head of the government and the administration, and all the other
magistrates, with the exception of the tribunes of the people, were
subordinate to them. They convened the senate, and as presidents
conducted the business; they had to carry into effect the decrees of
the senate, and sometimes on urgent emergencies they might even act
on their own authority and responsibility. They were the medium
through which foreign affairs were brought before the senate; all
despatches and reports were placed in their hands before they were
laid before the senate; by them foreign ambassadors were introduced
into the senate, and they alone carried on the negotiations between
the senate and foreign states. They also convened the assembly of the
people and presided in it; and thus conducted the elections, put
legislative measures to the vote, and had to carry the decrees of the
people into effect. (Polyb. vi. 12; COMITIA; SENATUS.) The whole of
the internal machinery of the republic was, in fact, under their
superintendence; and in order to give weight to their executive
power, they had the right of summoning and arresting offenders
(vocatio and prehensio), but not in their own houses (Cic. in Vat. 9,
22; pro Dom. 41, 109), and a general right of inflicting punishment,
limited only by the right of appeal from their judgment (provocatio);
which might be exercised even against inferior magistrates.

The outward signs of their power, and at the same time the means by
which they exercised it, were twelve lictors with the fasces, without
whom the consul never appeared in public (Liv. xxv. 17, xxvii. 27;
Val. Max. i. 1, §9; comp. Liv. vi. 34, xxxix. 12), and who preceded
him in a line one behind another. (Liv. xxiv. 44; Val. Max. ii. 2, §
4.) In the city, however, the axes did not appear in the fasces; a
regulation which is said to have been introduced by Valerius
Publicola (Dionys. v. 2, 19, 75; x. 59), and which is intimately
connected with the right of appeal from a consul's sentence, whence
it did not apply to the decemvirs nor originally to the dictator. Now
as the provocatio could take place only within a thousand paces from
the city, it must be supposed that the axes did not appear in the
fasces within the same limits, an opinion which is not contradicted
by the fact that the consuls on returning from war appeared with the
axes in their fasces in the Campus Martins, at the very gates of
Rome; for they had the imperium militare, which ceased only when they
had entered the city.

But the powers of the consuls were far more extensive in their
capacity of supreme commanders of the armies, and wherever they were
without the precincts of the city, and were invested with the full
imperium. When the levying of an army was decreed by the senate, the
consuls conducted the levy, and, at first, had the appointment of all
the subordinate officers--a right which subsequently they shared with
the people; and the soldiers had to take their oath of allegiance to
the consuls. They also determined the contingent to be furnished by
the allies; and in the province assigned to them they had the
unlimited administration, not only of all military affairs, but of
everything else, even over life and death, excepting only the
conclusion of peace and treaties. (Polyb. vi. 12, 5; compare
EXERCITUS) The treasury was, indeed, under the control of the senate;
but in regard to the expenses for war, the consuls do not appear to
have been bound down to the sums [p. 535] granted by that body, but
to have availed themselves of the public money as circumstances
required; the quaestors, however, kept a strict account of the
expenditure (Polyb. vi. 12, 13, 15; Liv. xliv. 16). The quaestors
also kept the keys of the treasury (even of the aerariums sanctius:
cf. Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 117), and their co-operation was therefore
necessary for any expenditure (Polyb. xxiii. 14). The control thus
exercised became a real one when the quaestors were no longer
nominated by the consuls, but were elected by the people. In the
early times, the consuls had the power to dispose of the booty in any
way they pleased; sometimes they distributed the whole or a part of
it among the soldiers, and sometimes they sold it, and deposited the
produce in the public treasury, which in later times became the usual
practice. The first limitation of the military command of the consuls
was in B.C. 227, when Sicily was erected into a province, committed
to a special governor (praetor), and thus removed from the consular
jurisdiction. But a more important change was that introduced by
Sulla, who extended to the whole of Italy the legal privileges of the
city of Rome. From this time forward the consuls ceased to hold
military command during their year of office, and passed at the
expiration of it into the ranks of the generals in office in the
provinces by virtue of a special resolution of the senate (Mommsen,
Staatsr. ii. 90).

Abuse of the consular power was prevented, first of all, by each of
the consuls being dependent on his colleague, who was invested with
equal rights; for, if we except the provinces abroad where each was
permitted to act with unlimited power, the two consuls could do
nothing unless both were unanimous (Dionys. x. 17; Appian, Bell. Civ.
ii. 11), and against the sentence of one consul an appeal might be
brought before his colleague; nay, one consul might of his own accord
put his veto on the proceedings of the other. (Liv. ii. 18, 27, iii.
34; Dionys. v. 9; Cic. de Leg. iii. 4) But in order to avoid every
unnecessary dispute or rivalry, arrangements had been made from the
first, that the real functions of the office should be performed only
by one of them every alternate month (Dionys. ix. 43); and the one
who was in the actual exercise of the consular power for the month
was preceded by the twelve lictors, whence he is commonly described
by the words penes quem fasces erant (Liv. viii. 12, ix. 8). In the
early times, his colleague was then not accompanied by the lictors at
all, but he was preceded by an accensus. (Cic. de Rep. ii. 3. 1, 55;
Liv. ii. 1, iii. 33; comp. Dionys. v. 2, x. 24.) In later times, the
consul, even when he did not perform the functions of the office, was
also accompanied by twelve lictors (Suet. Caes. 20), but these
followed him: when this custom arose is uncertain, and we only know
that, in the time of Polybius, the dictator, as representing both
consuls, had twenty-four lictors. It has been maintained that the
consul who for the month being performed the functions of the office,
was designated as the consul major; but Festus (p. 161) leaves it
doubtful whether the term applied to the one who had the fasces, or
to the one who had been elected first; and there seems to be good
reason for believing that the word major really had reference only to
the age of the consul, so that the elder of the two was called consul
major. (Liv. xxxvii. 47; Cic. de Rep. ii. 3. 1, 55; Val. Max. iv. 1,
§ 1; Plut. Publ. 12; Dionys. vi. 57.) Owing to the respect paid to
the elder, he presided at the meeting of the senate which was held
immediately after the election. (Liv. ix. 8; Gellius, ii. 15.) The
exercise of the consular power was also checked by the knowledge that
after the expiration of their office they might be called to account
for the manner in which they had conducted themselves in their
official capacity. Many cases are on record, in which after their
abdication they were accused and condemned not only for illegal or
unconstitutional acts, but also for misfortunes in war which were
ascribed either to their carelessness or want of ability. (Liv. ii.
41, 52, 54, 61; iii. 31; xxii. 40, 49; xxvii. 2, 3; xxvii. 34; Cic.
de Nat. Deor. ii. 3, 8; Val. Max. viii. 1, § 4.) The ever-increasing
arrogance and power of the tribunes did not stop here, and we not
unfrequently find that consuls, even during the time of their office,
were not only threatened with punishment and imprisonment, but were
actually subjected to them. (Liv. iv. 26, v. 9, xlii. 21; Epit.
xlviii., lv.; Cic. de Leg. iii. 9, 20; in Vat. 9, 21; Val. Max. ix.
5, § 2; Dio Cass. xxxvii. 50, xxxviii. 6, xxxix. 39.) Sometimes the
people themselves opposed the consuls in the exercise of their power.
(Liv. ii. 55, 59.) Lastly, the consuls were dependent upon the
senate. [SENATUS] There occurred, however, times when the power of
the consuls thus limited by republican institutions was thought
inadequate to save the republic from perils into which she was thrown
by circumstances; and on such occasions a senatus consultum viderent
or darent operam consules, ne quid respublica detrimenti caperet,
conferred upon them full dictatorial power, not restrained either by
the senate, the people, or the tribunes. In the early times, such
senatus consulta are rarely mentioned, as it was customary to appoint
a dictator on such emergencies; but when the dictatorship had fallen
into disuse, the senate by the above-mentioned formula invested the
consuls, for the time, with dictatorial power. [DICTATOR] On this
senatus consultum ultimum, see Heitland's App. A to Cic. pro C.
Rabirio.

On entering upon their office, the consuls, and afterwards the
praetors also, agreed among one another as to the business which each
had to look after, so that every one had his distinct sphere of
action, which was termed his provincia. The ordinary way in which the
provinces were assigned to each was by lot (sortiri provincias),
unless the colleagues agreed among themselves, without any such means
of decision (comparare inter se provincias, Liv. xxiv. 10, xxx. 1,
xxxii. 8; Cic. ad Fam. i. 9). The decision by lot was resorted to for
no other reason than because the two consuls had equal rights, and
not, as some believe, because it was thereby intended to leave the
decision to the gods. It it was thought that one of the consuls was
eminently qualified for a particular province. either on account of
his experience or personal character, it frequently happened that a
commission was given to him extra sortem or extra ordinem, i.e. by
the senate and without any drawing of lots. (Liv. iii. 2, viii. 16,
xxxvii. 1; [p. 536] Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 9; comp. Liv. xxxv. 20, xli.
8.) In the earliest times, it seems to have been the custom for only
one of the consuls to march out at the head of the army, and for the
other to remain at Rome for the protection of the city, and to carry
on the administration of civil affairs, unless, indeed, wars were
carried on in two different quarters which rendered it necessary for
both consuls to take the field. (Dionys. vi. 24, 91; comp. Liv. iii.
4, 22, vii. 38.) Nay, we find that even when Rome had to contend with
one formidable enemy, the two consuls marched out together (Liv. ii.
44, iii. 8, 66, viii. 6, &c.); but the forces were equally divided
between them, in such a manner that each had as a rule the command of
two legions, and had the supreme command on every alternate day
(Polyb. iii. 107, 110, vi. 26; Liv. iv. 46, xxii. 27, 41, xxviii. 9;
comp. iii. 70).

When the Roman dominion extended beyond the natural boundaries of
Italy, the two consuls were not enough to undertake the
administration of the provinces, and praetors were appointed to
undertake the command in some, while the more important ones were
reserved for the consuls. Hence a distinction was made between
provinciae consulares and praetoriae. (Liv. xli. 8.) [PROVINCIA] It
lay with the senate to determine into which provinces consuls were to
be sent, and into which praetors, and this was done either before the
magistrates actually entered upon their office (Liv. xxi. 17), or
after it, and on the proposal of the consuls (Liv. xxv. 1, xxvi. 28,
xxvii. 7, &c.). Upon this, the magistrates either agreed among
themselves as to which province each was to undertake, or they drew
lots; first, of course, the consuls, and after them the praetors. One
of the laws of C. Gracchus (de provinciis ordinandis; Cic. de Prov.
Cons. 2, 3; Sall. Jug. 27), however, introduced the regulation, that
every year the senate, previous to the consular elections, should
determine upon the two consular provinces, in order to avoid
partiality, it being yet unknown who were to be the consuls. It had
been customary from the earliest times for the consuls to enter their
province in the year of their consulship; but in the latter period of
the republic, the ordinary practice of the consuls was to remain at
Rome during the year of their office, and to go into their province
in the year following as pro-consuls, until at length in B.C. 53, a
senatus consultum, and the year after a law of Pompeius, enacted that
a consul or praetor should not go into any province till five years
after the expiration of their office. (Dio Cass. xl. 46, 56.) When a
consul was once in his province, his imperium was limited to it; and
to exercise the same in any other province was, at all times,
considered illegal. (Liv. x. 37, xxix. 19, xxxi. 48, xliii. 1.) In
some few cases, a breach of this rule was pardoned after a brilliant
success. (Liv. xxvii. 43, xxix. 7.) On the other hand, a consul was
not allowed to quit his province before he had accomplished the
purpose for which he had been sent into it, or before the arrival of
his successor, unless, indeed, he obtained the special permission of
the senate. (Liv. xxxvii. 47.) Other functions also were sometimes
divided between the consuls by lot, if they could not agree: for
example, which of them was to preside at the consular elections or
those of the censors (Liv. xxiv. 10, xxxv. 6, 20, xxxix. 32, xli. 6),
which of them was to dedicate a temple (Liv. ii. 8, 27), or nominate
a dictator (Liv. iv. 26). So long as the consuls had to hold the
census, they undoubtedly drew lots, uter conderet lustrum; and even
when they went out on a common expedition, they seem to have
determined by lot in what direction each should exert his activity.
(Liv. xli. 18.)

The entering of a consul upon his office was connected with great
solemnities: before day-break each consulted the auspices for
himself, which in the early times was undoubtedly a matter of great
importance, though, at a later period, we know it to have been a mere
formality. (Dionys. ii. 4, 6.) It must, however, be observed, that
whatever the nature of the auspices were, the entering upon the
office was never either rendered impossible or delayed thereby,
whence we must suppose that the object merely was to obtain
favourable signs from the gods, and as it were to place under the
protection of the gods the office on which the magistrate entered.
After the auspices were consulted, the consul returned home, put on
the toga praetexta (Liv. xxi. 63; Ov. ex Pont. iv. 4, 25, Fast. i.
81), and received the salutatio of his friends and the senators. (Dio
Cass. lviii. 5; Ov. ex Pont. iv. 4, 27, &c.) Accompanied by these and
a host of curious spectators, the consul, clad in his official robes,
proceeded to the temple of Jupiter in the Capitol, where a solemn
sacrifice of white bulls was offered to the god. It seems that in
this procession the sella curulis, as an emblem of his office, was
carried before the consul. (Ov. l. c. iv. 4, 29 ff., 9, 17 ff.; Liv.
xxi. 63; Cic. de Leg. Agr. ii. 3. 4, 92.) After this, a meeting of
the senate took place, at which the elder of the two consuls made his
report concerning the republic, beginning with matters referring to
religion, and then passing on to other affairs (referre ad senatum de
rebus divinis et humanis, Liv. vi. 1, ix. 8, xxxvii. 1; Cic. ad Quir.
post Red. 5, 11). One of the first among the religious things which
the consuls had to attend to, was the fixing of the feriae Latinae,
and it was not till they had performed the solemn sacrifice on the
Alban mount that they could go into their provinces. (Liv. xxi. 63,
xxii. 1, xxv. 12, xlii. 10.) The other affairs upon which the consuls
had to report to the senate had reference to the distribution of the
provinces, and many other matters connected with the administration,
which often were of the highest importance. After these reports, the
meeting of the senate broke up, and the members accompanied the
consuls to their homes (Ov. ex Pont. iv. 4, 41); and this being done,
the year of office was formally begun.

Respecting the various offices which at different times were
temporary substitutes for the consulship, such as the dictatorship,
the decemvirate, and the office of the tribunl militares consulari
potestate, the reader is referred to the separate articles.

Towards the end of the republic, the consulship lost its power and
importance. Caesar, in his dictatorship, gave it the first severe
blow, for he himself took the office of consul along with that of
dictator, or he arbitrarily caused persons to be elected who in their
actions were entirely dependent upon his will. He himself was elected
at first for five years, then for ten, [p. 537] and at length for
life. (Sueton. Jul. 76, 80; Dio Cass. xlii. 20, xliii. 1, 46, 49;
Appian, de Bell. Civ. ii. 106.) In the reign of Augustus the consular
power was a mere shadow of what it had been before, and the consuls
who were elected did not retain their office for a full year, but had
usually to abdicate after a few months. (Dio Cass. xlviii. 35, xliii.
46; Lucan, v. 399.) The emperors themselves usually took the
consulship at the beginning of the year, and laid it down in a month
or two. (Dio Cass. liii. 32; Tac. Hist. i. 77.) Nero received from
the senate continui consulatus (Tac. Ann. xiii. 41), and Vitellius
arranged the elections for ten years in advance, with himself as
perpetuus consul (Suet. Vitell. 11). Vespasian was consul eight times
in ten years, Domitian seventeen times in all. The usual time for the
tenure of the office came to be either four or two months (Dio Cass.
xliii. 46). In A.D. 69 there were fifteen consuls. (Cf. Mommsen in
Ephem. Epigr. 1872, p. 189.) In the reign of Commodus there were no
less than twenty-five consuls in one year. (Lamprid. Commod. 6; Dio
Cass. lxxii. 12.) In the republican time, the year had received its
name from the consuls, and in all public documents their names were
entered to mark the year; but from the time that there were more than
two in one year, only those that entered upon their office at the
beginning of the year were regarded as consules ordinarii, and gave
their names to the year, though the suffecti were likewise entered in
the Fasti. (Sueton. Domit. 2, Galb. 6, Vitell. 2; Senec. de Ira, iii.
31; Plin. Paneg. 38; Lamprid. Al. Sev. 28.) The consules ordinarii
ranked higher than those who were elected afterwards. The election
from the time of Tiberius was in the hands of the senate, who, of
course, elected only those that were recommended by the emperor;
those who were elected were then announced (renuntiare) to the people
assembled in what were called comitia. (Dio Cass. lviii. 20; Plin.
Paneg. 77; Tac. Ann. iv. 68.) In the last centuries of the empire, it
was customary to create honorary consuls (consules honorarii), who
were chosen by the senate and sanctioned by the emperor (Cassiod. i.
10; Justin. Nov. lxx. 80, c. 1), and consules suffecti were then
scarcely heard of at all, for Constantine restored the old custom of
appointing only two consuls, one for Constantinople, and the other
for Rome, who were to act as supreme judges (under the emperor) for a
whole year, and besides these two there were no others except
honorary consuls and consulares. Although the dignity of these
honorary consuls as well as of the consules ordinarii and suffecti
was merely nominal, still it was regarded as the highest in the
empire, and was sought after by noble and wealthy persons with the
greatest eagerness, notwithstanding the great expenses connected with
the office (Dio, lx. 27) on account of the public entertainments
which a newly appointed consul had to give to his friends and the
people. (Fronto, Ep. ii. 1; Lydus, de Magistr. ii. 8; Liban. Orat. 8;
Symmach. ii. 64, iv. 8, x. 44; Sidon. Apollin. Epist. ii. 3; Cassiod.
ii. 2, vi. 1; Procop. de Bell. Pers. i. 25.) Julius Caesar (Suet.
Jul. 76) and Augustus (Dio Cass. xlvi. 41) conferred the ornamenta
consularia without the actual office; and this practice became so
common afterwards, that the title consulares was used for this class,
which held rank as the most distinguished class of senators, and
their honour ultimately became hereditary. After Diocletian, however,
they ranked below the viri illustres and the viri spectabiles. The
last consul of Rome was Decimus Theodorus Paulinus, A.D. 534, and at
Constantinople Flavius Basilius Junior, in A.D. 541. After that time,
the emperors of the East took the title of consul for themselves,
until in the end it fell quite into oblivion.

Under the empire the consuls were regarded as the official
representatives of the senate, and were even allowed by some emperors
a formal precedence (Suet. Tib. 31). Their official functions were as
follows:--1. They presided in the senate, though, of course, never
without the sanction of the emperor; 2. They administered justice,
partly extra ordinem (Tac. Ann. iv. 19, xiii. 4; Gell. xiii. 24)
[SENATUS], and partly in ordinary cases, such as manumissions or the
appointment of guardians (Dig. 1, 10, 1; Ammian. Marcell. xxii. 7;
Cassiod. vi. 1; Sueton. Claud. 23); 3. The letting of the public
revenues, a duty which had formerly been performed by the censors
(Ov. ex Pont. iv. 5, 19), although the consuls had always possessed
the right of acting as the representatives of the censors, when there
were none in office at the time; 4. The conducting of the games in
the Circus and of public solemnities in honour of the emperors, for
which they had to defray the expenses out of their own means.
(Sueton. Nero, 4; Juv. xi. 193, &c.; Cassiod. l. c., and iii. 39, v.
42, vi. 10.) Some emperors indeed granted the money necessary for
such purposes, and endeavoured to check the growing extravagance of
the consuls, but these regulations were all of a transitory nature.
(Lamprid. Al. Sever. 43; Vopisc. Aurel. 12; Justin. Nov. 105.)

Compare besides the various works on Roman history, K. D. Hüllmann,
Röm. Grundverfassung, p. 125, &c.; K. W. Göttling, Gesch. der Röm.
Staatsverf. p. 269, &c.; above all, Mommsen, Staatsrecht, ii. 70-124;
and Becker, Handbuch der Röm. Alterth. vol. ii. part ii. pp. 87-126,
and part iii. pp. 235 if. [L. S.] [A. S. W.]

A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD.
William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray.
1890.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24295 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Let's Boil It Down
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

Salve, Scaurus.


I do understand the section about the caeremonia, but this is not
mentioned in the points enumerated in Q. Fabius Maximus' list of
reasons supporting Fabia's expulsion. Only point #2 (as quoted
below) refers in any way to any action, and that refers to action(s)
that she may take in the future. In Fabius' remarks, it is noted
only that she suggested that you be "killed", without the mention of
a desecration of any caeremoniae at all. As this list is a summation
provided by Q. Fabius Maximus on behalf of those who voted Fabia out,
and no correction was made by anyone involved after the Pontifex
Maximus posted that summation, I believed that it included all the
salient points. Hence my assumption that it was based mostly on the
pontiffs being "mocked" and a feeling that Fabia was "getting away"
with something. I admitted yesterday that I personally leaned
towards the Pontifex Maximus' arguments --- and I did so precisely
because Fabius Maximus' list seems so weak. (CONTINUED BELOW)

**************************

"--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni S. P. D.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> I said yesterday that Sp. Fabia Vera's insult to me means
absolutely nothing to me. I cannot speak for Fabiu Maximus, but the
majority of my pontifical colleagues told me that the reasons for
their support of the decretum was her mockery of a caerimonia of the
Religio and he refusal to submit in ritual matters of the authority
of the Collegium. It does not matter to me what. Sp. Fabia Vera said
about me. If she apologised to me I would accept it with as grace as
I could muster, but it would not change the grounds on which decretum
was adopted and the Collegium acted. This is simply not a personal
vendetta. It is a question of whether a constitutionally established
institution of the Religio is going to cede its constitutional
authority over all cults of the Religio to individual priests or
permit the cults to be profaned by unfit priests.


Q. Fabius Maximus - VTI ROGAS
This "person" must go.
1. Publically she has mocked the Pontifices (You mock one of us, you
mock us all)
2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if
College instructed her otherwise.
3. Publically suggested that a Nova Roman Citizen be killed even
though she later said it was humor.
4. This citizen was a Pontifice.
5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR "conversion"
seems more political than religious
6. Believes that because she's friends of the faction in power, she
can get away with these statements. (Based on a private e-mail
conversation.)
7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as
Sacerdote if all her beliefs were known. She falsified her
application. We are just repairing a mistake."

************

CATO: It is because the above list seems so ill-suited for the
declaration of a citizen and sacerdote as nefas that I hope the rule
of law will come into play and, if possible, Fabia might be given a
chance to make a full defense. It is in the same way that a judge in
the U.S., with the full power and authority of the State and
Constitution behind him, can pronounce sentence and yet be overturned
upon appeal. This does not reduce that judge's authority to make such
a pronouncement; nor will an appeal by Fabia lessen the College's
authority to pronounce upon matters relating to the religio, as
guaranteed by the Constitution of Nova Roma. It is not a matter of
whether or not the College has the authority to pronounce, but rather
whether or not the citizens of Nova Roma, through their elected
magistrates or by their voice at the ballot-box, believe that that
pronouncement was just.

vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24296 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1318
L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit

Salvete.

A few comments.
________________________________________________________________________

From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus <dom.con.fus@...>
Subject: Comments about the PM's post and variuos things.

Ave Pontifex Maximus and omnes

<SNIP>

> ******************************************************************
> Marcus Cassius Julianus - ANTIQUO
> No offense to Scarus, but this Decretum would be dangerous at any time,...
Here are some thoughts:
>
> 1. Fabia Vera received no *official* communications from the Collegium
> regarding her behavior, ...
>
> 2. Fabia Vera has not been informed that she is under review, nor has she
> been given any opportunity to defend herself before this body.

Which means that Fabia Vera has been summarily put to trial ...
decided to went ahead with what can't but be labeled as a secret trial
against
someone who can't defend herself not based on a crime, ...

L Equitius: This wasn't a "Trial"! There wasn't a "crime. She wasn't
"punished"! She was simply let go on account of unsuitiblity.

> 3. We'll be setting a first-time precedent here - declaring a Citizen
> "nefas." ... argue with, anger or
> disagree with a Pontifex, and you will be punished.

Couldn't be more true.

L Equitius: What punishment? She was removed on account of those reasons
posted by Pontifex Scaurus.

> 4. This is still coming at a bad time - tempers on the main list are still
> not good. We've had ten people unsubscribe over the last week... do we
really
> want to come out with a negative decretum that singles out an individual
for
> punishment?

L Equitius: She wasn't Punished!!!


> 2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if College
> instructed her otherwise.

Yet, practically speaking, ...

L Equitius: Now you're getting the picture.

> 5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR "conversion"
seems
> more political than religious

And that's, again, unless you are a mind-reader of some sort, another trial
to
her intentions.

Cincinnatus: That along with her statements that she would never under any
circumstances preform a sacrifice were contributing factors in my decision.
There was no Trial! We simply reevaluated her suitiblity.


> 7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as Sacerdote
if
> all her beliefs were known. She falsified her application. We are just
> repairing a mistake.

What beliefs?

L Equitius: Those that are contraindications for the positions of Sacerdos
Magna Mater.
Pontifex Scaurus explains them, again, very well below.

I've come to the conclusion that People believe what they want, regardless
of how often and clearly the situation is explained. There are clearly a few
people who will not except any rational and will continue to agitate.

________________________________________________________________________

G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

Salvete, omnes.

In this whole discussion of Fabia's dismissal as a sacerdote of the
cult of the Magna Deorum Mater, it is essential to consider two
points:

1. The "crimes" of which Fabia is accused are not sui generis, i

L Equitius: Again no crimes, or punishment were voted upon.

2. The issue of Fabia's remark vis-a-vis Scaurus is, in its essence,
an issue between two individuals, ...

L Equitius: Right, then we stay out of it.

May the Gods look favourably upon us as we seek wisdom.


________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 07:30:13 -0500
From: Gregory Rose <gfr@...>
Subject: Re: Let's Boil It Down

G. Iulius Scaurus C. Equitio Catoni S. P. D.

Salve, Cato.

I said yesterday that Sp. Fabia Vera's insult to me means absolutely
nothing to me. I cannot speak for Fabiu Maximus, but the majority of my
pontifical colleagues told me that the reasons for their support of the
decretum was her mockery of a caerimonia of the Religio and he refusal
to submit in ritual matters of the authority of the Collegium. It does
not matter to me what. Sp. Fabia Vera said about me. If she apologised
to me I would accept it with as grace as I could muster, but it would
not change the grounds on which decretum was adopted and the Collegium
acted. This is simply not a personal vendetta. It is a question of
whether a constitutionally established institution of the Religio is
going to cede its constitutional authority over all cults of the Reliio
to individual priests or permit the cults to be profaned by unfit
priests. I repeat here exactly what I said here yesterday, since your
summary does not appear to be talk into account that perspective:

There are several reasons for which the Collegium Pontificum chose to
expel Sp. Fabia Vera from the ranks of sacerdotes and to ban her from
ever again being numbered among them, but two are fundamental. The most
important is that she publicly mocked a caerimonia of the Religio. Her
joke was not accidental in mentioning Concordia, sacrifice, and me: it
was a direct allusion to a supplicatio to Concordia which I conducted
and which included a blood sacrifice. Without the allusion to that
supplicatio there is no joke to be had in her words. For all I care Sp.
Fabia Vera can tell the ML that I fornicate with dogs, the most I would
respond would be words in kind. But when jokes are made about the most
sacred rituals of the Religio and by a sacerdos no less, a line has been
crossed which cannot be uncrossed. For that alone a sacerdos should be
removed. However, Sp. Fabia Vera went further still and told citizens
that there would be no blood sacrifices in the public cult of Magna
Deorum Mater. It is the responsibility of the Collegium Pontificum to
set policy for all priesthoods and to regulate all public ritual
practices. That is Nova Roman law. It is not the place of a sacerdos
to arrogate that authority to herself, particularly in a cult in which
male priests frquently and bloodily sacrificed their testicles, blood
sacrifice was practiced Her principal festival, and in the imperial
period bathing in bull's blood was a common cultic act. Nor is it
proper for a sacerdos to insist that Plutarch's vision of the laws of
Numa be applied to a foreign cult brought to Rome long after Numa was
dead. The Collegium has tried to find a via media between those who
support and those who oppose blood sacrifice by permitting, but not
requiring it. When a sacerdos tells citizens that will never be
practised in the cult of a particular Goddess, she tells citizens that
any future sacerdos of the cult who chooses to perform blood sacrifice
is committing an improper act. It is precisely that mentality which the
Collegium sought to avoid in the decretum on blood sacrifice: we
attempted to provide a compromise on the issue which could accomodate
everyone. Sp. Fabia Vera sabotaged that attempt to build unity and
simultaneously set herself up in the cult of Magna Deorum Mater as an
authority independent of the Collegium Pontificum. If priests cannot be
counted upon to accept the authority of the Collegium in matters of
ritual practice, then there is no possibility of reconstructing the
Religio in any systematic way. It is her mockery of a caerimonia and
her refusal to accept the authority of the Collegium in ritual matters
which first and foremost motivated the Collegium's decision.

Vale.
Scaurus


Cincinnatus: This sums up the situation.
If you are trying to make a point otherwise it's just that, an other point.
Such as, *some* people don't like the fact that the College Pontificum
controlls the Religio within Nova Roma and that the Religio is the
foundation of Nova Roma.

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24297 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salvete Quirites,

In the note I quote here, Spuria Fabia Vera has invoked the right of
Provocatio.

Sp. Fabia Vera wrote:

> Salvete omnes, Tribunes;
>
> I am not so knowledgable in Roman Law as Pompeia Minucia Tiberia or
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus so I hereby also appeal under Provacatio
> being able to appeal alternatively directly to the Comitia or under
> the theory of Provacatio.

Both Consuls and Tribunes may convene the Comitia Populi Tributa, which
is the assembly charged with hearing cases of Provocatio. Since Fabia
Vera has addressed her appeal to the Tribunes I shall wait until the
Tribunes have spoken before I reply directly to this appeal. But I
remind all that such appeals can be made to Consuls as well as to Tribunes.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24298 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Absence
M IVL PERVSIANVS AED CVR ET LEG ITALIAE QVIRITIBVS SPD

I'll be away from 2 to 7 June, while visiting the multi-cultural
meeting "Festival dell'Occidente" by Venice (you can take a look at
http://www.festivaloccidente.it/)

If needed please refer to my colleague Aedilis Curulis Scaurus or
Quaestor Diana Octavia. For Provincial duties to Praetor M'const
Serapio.

thanks
valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24299 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Gaius Modius Athanasius Wrote:

You are clearly out for yourself, and your attempt to "rally the citizens of Nova Roma"...

M. Traianus Valerius:

I agree that it appears that she is out for herself, however I am not sure that it is totally the case. She feels that she was unfairly removed from her position and she could be working for the best interests of the cult as well as herself.

I will say that I agree that if she said that the cult will NEVER preform animal sacrfice then she may have been overstepping her bounds, since the original cult did pratice such things. For that she should be "punished", and that "punishment" should be handed out by the CP, as they are the ones that appoint the priests and over the Religo. I do not think that should ever be or have been debated.

It is my opinion that if she has preformed well to this point, the punishment may have been too severe and they may have been other corrective action that the CP could have taken to show their displeasure and to make sure that any statments like that are approved by the CP prior to being made public.

Thank you for your time.

Ita di deaque faxint!
Marcus Traianus Valerius

------------------------------------------------------------
Gens Traiana Home Page
www.geocities.com/genstraiana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24300 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Love the Religio Romana
Salvete omnes,

I want to adress the imense and intense necessity of Nova Roma from
the Religio.

The Religio and Civil atributions merged so heavily on Ancient, you
cannot say ´this is a civil magistrature´ or this is a ´priesthood´
like on Middle Ages.

Alas, everyone was at least sacerdos of its lararium.

What it means?

Many religio cerimonies felt under the magistrates. Many duties of
the king, as the highest priest of the state, was divided between the
rex sacrorum, pontifex maximus and consules. Changed the government,
kept the religio.

Alas, other magistrates, like the Tribunes, were themselves sacred.
Others, like the Consules, had the auspices. The gatherings of the
people followed the religious calendar, and had cerimonies to follow.

Also, my confidence that all the rituals and religio questions should
be a concern of the Collegium Pontificium, as a body of specialists,
can always have wise counsel and soft rule on the needs of the
orthopraxis of the Republic, leading the priests, counseling him,
having a strong but soft hand, like fathers, like the pilars of the
altar...

Nova Roma welcomes always people from others credos, however,
although orthodoxy is not need, the orthopraxis is mandatory.

But the main core of all the Roman Religio is the Domestic Worshipp.
The lararium is our main ara. We cannot worshipp Iove while we
worshipp not our tutelary Lar.

I felt necessary to say this that behind the sad happenings of the
days before, it is necessary to cry in the forum the Religio is our
concern, the Religio is our core, the Religio is our life, and we are
not afraid to show our love by the Gods.

And may Concordia keep us from ourselves.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24301 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salvete Omnes,

The is no right of Provocatio in this matter.

Section II B 5 of Nova Roma's Constitution states:

" The right of provocatio; to appeal a decision of a MAGISTRATE that
has a direct negative impact upon that citizen to the comitia populi
tributa"

The Pontiffs are not magistrates, so this section doesn't apply to
their actions.

Section VI B 1 c of the Constitution states that the Collegium
Pontificum has the power:

" To issue decreta (decrees) on matters relevant to the Religio Romana
and its own internal procedures (such decreta MAY NOT BE OVERRULED by
laws passed in the COMITIA or Senatus consultum)."

A Drecretum was passed by the Collegium Pontificum stripping Sp. Fabia
Vera of her priesthood, that drecretum can't be over ridden by either
the Comitia nor the Senate.

The Collegium has the same rights to dismiss someone whom it finds
unsuitable as the Senate has to dismiss an unworthy Propraetor (as it
did in March of 2754) or a Magistrate has to dismiss an assistant who
has proven to be unsuitable for the postion. To do otherwise strips
the Collegium, the Senate, and the Magistrates of any control over
their subordinates.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> In the note I quote here, Spuria Fabia Vera has invoked the right of
> Provocatio.
>
> Sp. Fabia Vera wrote:
>
> > Salvete omnes, Tribunes;
> >
> > I am not so knowledgable in Roman Law as Pompeia Minucia Tiberia or
> > Domitius Constantinus Fuscus so I hereby also appeal under Provacatio
> > being able to appeal alternatively directly to the Comitia or under
> > the theory of Provacatio.
>
> Both Consuls and Tribunes may convene the Comitia Populi Tributa, which
> is the assembly charged with hearing cases of Provocatio. Since Fabia
> Vera has addressed her appeal to the Tribunes I shall wait until the
> Tribunes have spoken before I reply directly to this appeal. But I
> remind all that such appeals can be made to Consuls as well as to
Tribunes.
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24302 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Amicitiae Novae Romae
Salvete Quirites,

It's been a few days now since this topic first came up, but I think
it's worth preserving.

pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:

> What two or three citizens of Nova Roma have
> most impacted your involvement here in NR in a positive way....and
> would you expand in a sentence or two, as why that is?

It's hard for me to limit this to three, but I'll give it a shot.

First, I must acknowledge the paterfamilias of Gens Equitia, the man who
brought me into Nova Roma, and who has always enjoyed pride of place
among those I think of when I think of Nova Roma: Lucius Eqiutius
Cincinnatus Augur. A quiet, steady, thoughtful, considerate gentleman
who always acts in the best interest of Nova Roma as he sees it. I
have, I fear, embarassed him in the past by waxing too lyrical about how
much I admire his accomplishments. So I shall stop here this time, and
not write another fifteen paragraphs of admiring prose.

Second, the man I first came to know as the Praefectus Castrorum of the
Sodalitas Militarium from my earliest days of involvement with the
Militarium, Senator and Consular Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens.
Senator Audens taught me much about the Roman military system, and about
Nova Roma. He introduced me to people who have become good friends and
advisors. He has wide ranging interests in a number of areas, and I've
learned a lot from him in all of these. He also, in spite of
deteriorating physical health, continues to serve the Republic
steadfastly. He and I are both retired from the Naval Service (as is
Lucius Equitius, mentioned above), and we've enjoyed many a story
swapped about liberty ports and distant lands.

Third, my consular colleague, Gnaeus Salix Astur. From my first
exposure to the main list, I found that salixastur@... was an
e-mail address to associate with unfailing politeness, consideration for
the opinions of others, a great depth of understanding, a dedication to
the mos maiorum, and an unquenchable desire to serve the Republic.
After we began to correspond privately, I learned that Ausur is also a
man of broad knowledge and a wickedly funny sense of humor.

There are, of course, many more I could name who have been my guides, my
friends, and my advisors here in Nova Roma over the years.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24303 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Comments about the PM's post and various things.
In a message dated 6/1/04 1:33:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dom.con.fus@... writes:
Because you have singled me out I have several comments about this rant.
Salvete
> And if we were back 2000 years, don't you think the non-practitioner
> cives of Rome wouldn’t' had commented in the forum about the public
> dismissal
> of a sacerdos?


Really? Do you not think that the citizens of Rome couldn't care less about
the
non practitioners opinion, since all Roman citizens were supposed to
practitioners of the Religio? This is our biggest problem. Our greatest critics in
NR are non practitioners, where in Old Rome this would not be true.


While in most western countries what the religious hierarchy
> does or does not has no direct influence on the civil life of the cives, in
> NR
> the CP decree have an impact on the life of all the cives, practitioners or
> not. Therefore, it is of interest for any civis, even the non practitioner
> one,
> to know how the decision of the CP are taken and following what principles
> just
> as much as it is teh interest of any civis to see how teh CP composition is
> being changed because a more or less politicized Collegium (and I'm afraid
> the
> Collegium, despite your efforts, seem to be more and more a political rather
> than a religious body) will have a direct impact in his life.

Well, it is after all a matter between members of the College and one of it
appointees. How the citizens of Nova Roma comes into it, is a bit of stretch.
Tell me, every time the Pontiff in Rome excommunicates a Catholic Priest for
failing to follow the Holy See's directives, do you fire an angry e-mail in
the Pope's direction? If not, why are we so blessed?

>
> We are citizens and we have all the right to comment on the events affecting
> *our* institutions and trying to influence them, and “our” means the
> institutions that are there BOTH for the practitioners and for the
> non-practitioners. It is indeed this "we" against "you" attitude that at east 4 of the
> pontifices tend to show (in different degrees), together, I'll repeat it, with a
> more and more politicized look that the Collegium has been taking over the last
> months, that eventually, as you said, doesn't make the institution look all
> too popular among some of the cives.
>

Really? I had no idea we were running a popularity contest. Stop trying to
grandstand here.
What politics was involved? Vera's? She said she was apolitical if I
recall. The those who follow the Religio look to the College for guidance. The non
practitioners do not.
You make it sound like the College is a Star Chamber and we have a secret
list of proscriptions we are about to serve on the populace of Nova Roma. First
off we have no authority to do that even if we wanted to.
Second, this was an internal matter concerning the College and one of her
appointees.
She was a Nova Roma citizen as well, but she was not dismissed because she
was a Nova Roma citizen. Her citizenship was not revoked. The College could
not do that in any case.
That would fall to the Praetors.

> Anyway, those being the reasons I think entitle the non-practitioners to
> comment
> on the recent events seeing the Collegium as protagonist.


You are entitled to say whatever you want. However we did not start this.
Vera and her selfish approach to being a Sacerdote did.

> >******************************************************************
> Which means that Fabia Vera has been summarily put to trial without any real
> violation of any instruction, order, explicit rule of conduct set by the
> Collegium. I think it’s highly honorable for the head of the Collegium to
> admit
> that in front of his collegues, but beyond commendation to reveal such
> admission in front of the whole population. On the other hand, what should
> one
> think of the Pontifices that in front of their supreme Collegue saying that,
> decided to went ahead with what can’t but be labeled as a secret trial
> against
> someone who can’t defend herself not based on a crime, but on her words in a
> discussion that, as the PM says in the next point, was “ heated *on both
> sides*. “ ?
>

So you are saying that we should let her speak her mind, so she sends the
wrong message to the citizens of Nova Roma no matter what the circumstances.
Let's try to put this in perspective.
OK let's say the Propraetor of Uppergumland is not doing his job.
No reports, no taxes, he threatened a Senator and he has been seen hanging
out with members of the SVR.
The Senate who hired him says "You knew the job requirements when you took
the gig. You are not fulfilling them. You are fired."
But our Propraetor says "Wait just a cottonpickin' minute. You can't fire me!
I have reasons for not doing what I did. It was a huge joke. Some Senator
attacked me, so I went to SVR for advice. I knew I wouldn't get a fair shake.
Everybody here hates me. So what if I told him to go kill himself in front
of 200+ witnesses! It was humor! I was defending my honor. So what if I
would not follow the Senate's instructions on taxes? My personal beliefs are that
Nova Roma should be free free free to all with no taxes, because I have to be
true to me!

Tell me, what would the Senate do?

> And now, Fabius Maximus...
>

Before you start on me, I would like to point out in the spirit of the
Goddess, I attempted to discuss this with you off list. You refused. You
threatened me with prosecution, and you sent a copy to of my e-mail to the Consul for
your protection. So much for our peace.

> >*************************************************************
> Fabia Vera has mocked, in the middle of a quite heated discussion, a
> *person*.
> She was wrong, of course, in doing that yet she said to sacrifice Scaurus,
> not
> a Pontifex. Also, YOU have mocked Fabia Vera as well, in pretty similar
> terms
> and inviting her to kill herself…


Actually I was following up on Iunius post. I misread her post, by missing
the comma it appeared she was about to commit an act of Devotio. Since she
could not kill herself I assumed she was about to resign her post as her Devotio.
Of course after I sent the post
I was informed otherwise, but you cannot unsend a Yahoo post. A major design
flaw.
So as I said, I did not. I misread her post. I thought she was about to
resign. I even have witnesses to which I expressed my belief. Of course being
friends of mine, that is useless
since you assume everybody lies, especially here in the College.

You intended to mock her in person, not her
> position as sacerdos, I presume, but following your reasoning, have you
> mocked by that all the sacerdotes of NR?
>


Truthfully, I have never seen a Sacerdos engage in such suicidal behavior,
before. Only one Sacerdos before this told the college that she would not
follow their directives but resigned before she could be fired. I've seen
sacerdotes resign because the Religio was not meeting their needs or they lost
interest.
And I intended nothing. You are putting words in my mouth, another of your
traits I notice.


> >2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if College
> >instructed her otherwise.
>
> Yet, practically speaking, she didn’t do anything, given the College didn’
> t, as
> the PM said, sent official instructions. I do not know how it is called in
> English, but in Italian that is called “trial to the intentions” and is..
> well,
> not too well looked upon.
>

Really? I had no idea that we are practicing Italian Law here. Besides we
did not have to issue a directive. She said she would refuse all directives,
publicly.




> Ah, so, if the civis is a pontifex is condemnable, if the civis is not a
> pontifex, but just a sacerdos or an any civis, it can be tolerated?
>


A so! What exactly are you Asoing about? You are saying that Iulius is not
a Pontifice? He was when he was threatened and his position mocked. And even
though he resigned, he rescinded his resignation.

> >5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR "conversion"
> seems
> >more political than religious
>
> And that’s, again, unless you are a mind-reader of some sort, another trial
> to
> her intentions.
>


I can only assume what the evidence shows. That comment was based on her
posts on both the Religious list, the Main list, and the backalley. There were
other Pontifices who came to the same conclusion, independently.

> >6. Believes that because she's friends of the faction in power, she can
> get
> >away with these statements. (Based on a private e-mail conversation.)
>
> Either one of the two… either you provided the private mails to the
> discussion
> to support yourstatement, and that’s not exactly a good thing to do, or you
> just dropped that affirmation without any evidence… I do not know what
> exactly
> is the worse between the two things. Incidentally, would that kind of belief
> be
> a punishable crime?
>


Oh no. Not at all. If she uttered what she uttered assuming she could get
away with it, because she had friends in high places, more power to her. That
is very Roman, and if she has Patrons she would expect them to come to her
aid. That is very Roman as well.
The College felt different and was not intimidated as you can see by the
vote.

> >7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as Sacerdote
> if
> >all her beliefs were known. She falsified her application. We are just
> >repairing a mistake.
>
> What beliefs? Her religious beliefs or her political ones? You asked her
> specific questions and she answered affirming the false, by that “falsifying”
>
> her application?
>


I study Japanese Military History. I study Indian Military History. I
understand the concept of both their religions and how it applies to the
utilization and organization of
their military. However, I never mentioned that in my application as
Pontifice because I'm not an active practitioner. Fabia Vera mentions several times
on the Religio list her involvement in Eastern Religions. Most Eastern
Religions.
The Pontifices took the vote on the assumption that she would be devoted to
the Great Goddess. Not just include Her in her many interests. We would have
never accepted her if we knew that. We believe we were misled.

> Having yourself, Fabius, essentially committed the things you blame under
> point
> 1 and 3, shall you punish yourself as well?

Point 1. Being I threatened her. No, I did not. I assumed she was resigning
when I made my post.
Had she this circus could be avoided.

Point three being she used humor to excuse a situation? I never found her
statement that humorous. That I used humor? I told her to get on with it. I
thought her resigning was her best way out for all concerned.

Your rebuttal

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24304 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salvete Quirites, et salve Luci Sicini,

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The is no right of Provocatio in this matter.

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the laws with us, Druse.
But as I mentioned earlier, I'm refraining from saying anything one way
or the other until the Tribunes have addressed the appeal.

I would recommend that all interested parties withold further comment on
this matter until we've heard from the Tribunes, and I ask the Tribunes
to please speak explicitly on this matter soon.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24305 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Comments about the PM's post and various things.
Salve honourable Senator Maxime,

You said :

In a message dated 01/06/04 19:59:23 GMT Daylight Time, QFabiusMaxmi@...
writes:

> Really? Do you not think that the citizens of Rome couldn't care less
> about
> the
> non practitioners opinion, since all Roman citizens were supposed to
> practitioners of the Religio? This is our biggest problem. Our greatest
> critics in
> NR are non practitioners, where in Old Rome this would not be true.
>

Your statement simply is not true. Roman institutions were intimately linked
to the rituals and practice of PUBLIC religion whose priests and magistrates
performed on behalf of the Roman people...Roman citizens were not ALL supposed
to be practitioners privately (although most of them might have been) : They
were only supposed to obey and support PUBLIC rites.
Ancient, private, non practitioners might still have cared for their fellow
citizens in such a light and it is likely that they would also have been
involved in public religious matters since, as your pontifical colleagues repeatedly
point out, in Roma Religious matters are State matters.
In Nova Roma, where the Religio Romana is the official public Religion that
defines our State, it is to be expected here that non practitioners be involved
in religious/state matters when they enter the realm of PUBLIC life.

Most respectfully

C. Moravius Laureatus

PS : and before you ask, yes, I am a practitioner. And I fully understand the
wish and right of non practitioners to be involved in all things public of
the State and that includes the right to understand and discuss the workings of
the Public State Religio.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24306 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: To Senator Drusus About the intercessio period 2
---
Salvete Senator et Pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus et Omnes:

Perhaps if you and I go through my post of this morning together, we
could see the elements a bit more clearly..maybe not, but its
certainly worth a shot, in the name of Concordia, and justice, and
deep within you, I know you care deeply about justice, and are willing
to look at things objectively...the scales of justice as supposed to
parallel one another, nonne? and not appear in a 180 degree angle,
fashioned like a candleholder:)

I have repeated myself in various ways, giving various angles of
application, in an attempt to cover every possible situation, to
facilitate comprehension and clarity.

My responses to you in this post, Druse, will follow POMPEIA TO DRUSUS:

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> ---Salvete Francisce Apule, all other Tribunes and Consuls :
>
> Thanks for the enlightenment about the timeframe; frankly, I had a
> busy weekend, and I figured intercessio would have been called by now,
> if there was a plan in place amongst the Tribunes. I am not being
> sarcastic by any means, don't get me wrong, just stating facts.
>
> I don't think I would be altogether erroneous in stating that by
> Tribune Modius' posts on the issue that he was in a hurry to pronounce
> intercessio.
>
> However, I do think that Fabia Vera is entitled to Provacatio ad
> Populum: B5 of the constitution:
>
> "the right to appeal the decision of a magitrate which has a direct
> negative impact upon that citizen to the Comitia Popli Tributa.
> Semantics might be a problem as technically Pontiffs are not
> magistrates per se, but this appeal is age old and a fundamental of
> the Roman justice system....moreover this is justified further in
> section 7:"

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: You are quibbling about the semantics here, to
wit, 'MAGISTRATE" I kinda thought some might ...but read below,
beginning with "The right"........
>
> "The 'right' to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State
> in matters of RELIGIOUS and social dispute occuring both within and
> outside the direct jurisdiction of... (Nova Roma)"

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS:
>
> The preamble states that the Constitution is the highest authority,
> and when a lower authority comflicts with a higher authority, the
> higher authority serves as the most legal and therefore acceptable.
> By this, the decision of the collegium cannot interfere with rights
> contained in the constitution, and therefore such rights as provocatio
> and the 'right to seek assistance and advice in religious disputes'
> from the state cannot be altered by them.


>
> I am not quibbling over the Collegium's ability or authority to
> discipline Fabia Vera, but the 'extent' to which she is being
> punished, and how, in light of what the Pontifex Maximus wrote
> yesterday, she was treated during these proceedings and the extent of
> their judgement.

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: You may throw her out, but only after she is
declared guilty by due process of law. She is first and foremost a
citizen...you must play fairly in a) advising her of proceedings
pending and the 'beef' in question b) provide her with advocacy and
c)provide her with an objective hearing, in accordance with the law,
which is the Lex Salicia..pursuant to the Constitution, and the
Constitution itself, in a couple of areas.

If you want to say 'she's unsuitable', she is 'disrespecting of the
religio', disrespecting of the Pontiffs...you may only do so 'after'
it has been established that she is indeed in condemno of these
things...then you may throw her out.

You are saying to me, that she has no appeal, nor right to trial under
the Constitution as a citizen 'because' she is a Religio Priestess...

?????

You would not get away with this if she were just a privatus who said
something you felt was religiously inappropriate...even the Blasphemy
Decretum gives credence to a trial after two warnings...and you are
denying her this, pursuant to the constitution, plus denying her the
fundamental rights of seeking the assistance and advice in matters of
RELIGIOUS dispute, among others, from the state?

You are telling me that the loudmouth, Marconius who entered this
forum in 2000, blatently condemning the Gods of Rome was more
deserving than she is? Upon what grounds? He was tried and banished
by the SENATE. It was an external affair. And this one is too...the
statements of Fabia Vera you are objecting to were made in a public
venue...the Collegium can charge her, give her a fair trial, suspend
her in the meantime, if they feel it is necessary (why, I don't know)
and THEN throw her out when she is declared guilty. Mind you we had
no Lex Salicia at the time, so the Senate handled it, but the point
is, it wasn't within the halls of the Collegium he was tried before a
body made up of the entirety of the populace.

If you think anything Fabia Vera is remotely related to his
disgraceful and blasphemous remarks, one must visit the archives, and
I believe there is a statement of banishment on the website
somewhere...and Bon Voyage! Don't come back...we have never had
anyone so ignorant in this forum, I don't think.

Where does the collegium get their authority, Senator et Pontifex
Drusus? The Constitution....they cannot conduct themselves contrary
to that in their proceedings, any more than a Sodalitas can...we 'all'
obey the Constitution...we all respect the Religio, we 'all' honour
the Pontifices...we just do not all honour their perceived authority
to circumvent law...this is 'well' beyond an internal
procedure....this is a 'judgement' via decretum on an individual, upon
which there has been a direct negative impact..she is atleast entitled
to allow comitia to give her the clarification she needs.

And why is a visit to the Comitia so dreadful, anyway?

AGAIN (not yelling) you may throw her out, but not in the manner you
did it...I won't get into the fact that there is evidence to the
effect that most of her judges cannot be considered objective, in that
they have made statements in the past either indicating they don't
like her, or her religious interpretations, and one doesn't like
nonBoni...
She is certainly entitled to appeal by virtue of seeking advice and
help in this dispute (read the constitutional passage above)...

This whole affair has been conducted rather unlawfully in my
opinion...the Collegium does not have the right to be unlawful, they
must discipline within the confines and processes of LAW.
>
> He indicated she received no advocacy, nor any official notice...'the
> right to seek and receive assistance and advice' was not provided by
> the Collegium in the form of advocacy
>
> In 24263, Fabia Vera alluded to having written the Collegium for
> advice in mediation of all this and received no assistance; if this
> can be proven via her email to them...her rights under the
> Constitution are being denied.

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: self explanatory
>
> In message 24258 Tribune/Pontifex Modius alludes to having written her
> privately and in an unsolicited fashion, but since by his own
> admission he was not officially acting as her advocus, or offering his
> services as such, this cannot be counted as officially appointed help.
> Clearly, he was just, as he explains, being a lover of Plebs, more or
> less.


>
> There is no decretum under which a person may be deemed Nefas in
> perpertuum, to wit, forbidden from holding an office for life in a
> religious capacity. So, as in other areas of the Collegial
> judgements, the Lex Salicia proceedings must be employed

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I think perhaps, some time should be spend
amongst the Collegium members discussing codes of conduct and steps
they will take by which someone will be disciplined, and/or is in
danger of dismissal...for what, the warnings, a notice of hearing, a
notice that the Collegium will seek legal action, the outcome of which
could result in expulsion...you can't just arbitrarily get together
the six of you...be the Praetor, Judge Jury and Executioner, in
clandestine and undefined procedures, which may or may not conflict
with the law, and in this case they have, and expect everyone to be
happy and not make a stink.

I know, I know...I don't 'respect' the Religio. I won't even go
there, after being here 4 years...It is the Religio I deeply
respect...it is the malproceedings of those who are the guardians of
the Religio I am questioning, as they have misapplied the law to the
extend of violating fundamental constitutional rights...it is not I
that am 'disprespecting' any practitioner either...when I do believe
that being a priestess/practitioner has indirectly shortchanged her of
justice.


>
> It would seem to me, that if one were to be banned forever from the
> Religious life, one would have to be deemed "blasphemous", and such
> is a charge covered under the Lex Salicia. I submit that the
> Collegium put the cart before the horse...they should have charged her
> with Blasphemy, and requested the forumula take the wishes of the
> collegium into account..

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: In the above, I am saying that you 'can' do, but
you 'must' do things properly, and this is not an internal matter
anymore, as it effects her rights as a citizen...Golly, even Vestals
were tried.
>
>
> Even Exactio, Imprudens Dalo Mallo ( decretum addressing magistrates
> refusing to submit auguries where they are indicated..see Religious
> Decretum in the Tabularium) are subject to trial by the Lex
> Salicia....why...why, isn't Fabia Vera entitled to the same degree of
> judicial proceeding as someone whose 'really' done a 'major', like
> failing to take auspices? All of these things are subject to trial,
> advocacy and a vote....she did not receive these, by proper lawful
> means ...and she is entitled to Provocatio.
>
> Again, I am appealing the legal proceedings, and the gravity of the
> sentence and I am not disputing the collegial authority to discipline
> its members.. I am not excusing that what she did was entirely
> appropriate...I do not believe she needs to 'hang' to satisfy justice,
> religous, social, judicial or otherwise, as she admits that she did
> not mean to blaspheme, but to joke, and unfortunately, it went over
> like a lead balloon.
>
> Consider this: I am a registered member of the College of
> Nurses...they can discipline me, and tell me what I need to do to
> correct my license standing and return to work, if I am behaving
> improperly. If they wish to do any more than that, it goes to a court
> of law, which is like out constitution and laws, it is the higher
> voice on matters outside the juridiction of my practise as an RN...it
> would be the same if I were a nun, a doctor, a minister, Wiccan
> priestess, RR Priestess.

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I cannot have my license revoked as a nurse by the
College of Nurses based on criminal activity, until I am 'proven'
guilty by a court of law...the College of Nurses has to obey
American/Canadian laws...they may suspend me in the meantime, and
revoke my license for however long they feel it is necessary, once I
am declared 'guilty' of the theft in question...Quality control is
their game, to protect the public, just as it is the Collegium's
...quality of control, and you are accountable to exercize this
'quality of control'....within the confines of the constitution which
gives you the right to do so in the first place.

To skirt the issue and try to deny her provocatio, or an appeal to the
comitia she should have had in the first place, seeing that she had no
prewarning of pending discipline, no advocatus to advise her of her
rights to a trial, even upon her asking the CP for advocacy...'what'
is your point?

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I hope I have repeated myself enough times, to
make my argument more clear to you.

Valete,
Pompeia
>
> Tribunes, I will make an appeal for intercessio to the Tribunes, for s
> a dismissal of the Collegial decisions as they stand and a proper
> trial of this, OR,I will urge Fabia Vera to appeal for such under
> Provocatio to the Consuls, and that is something I 'surely' hope, with
> due respect and sincerity will not be vetoed, because it is a
> fundamental right...no provacatio is unconstitutional, is it?
>
> Pompeia (who will crosscopy this to the Consuls)
>
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes,
> > the Decretum "Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed from Priesthood" wasn't
> > published in this mailing list, the official public list. However
> > the Lex Octavia de Sermone says:
> >
> > "a. Public fora under the jurisdiction of the Praetores shall
> > include the general discussion mailing list
> > (currently "novaroma@yahoogroups.com"), the announcements mailing
> > list (currently "novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com"), the web-based
> > message board linked to from www.novaroma.org, any chat system in
> > use on www.novaroma.org, and any other means of communications
> > designated as "public fora" by the Senate, except as detailed below."
> >
> > This means that each official document must to be published in this
> > two mailing lists. Let's visit the archive of the NovaRoma-announce.
> > The Decretum was sent at Fri May 28, 2004 3:50 pm but it was
> > published in teh mailing list at Saturday May 29 in the early
> > afternoon (time of Rome).
> >
> > So the time to intercessio will expire in a couple of hours.
> >
> > However we should consider the correction sent 30 minutes after the
> > first message. It isn't a commentary, it's an official correction so
> > the Decretum started from this time.
> >
> > This is my personal opinion
> >
> > In my opinion the Ambarualia didn't influenced the time and it can't
> > stop the official duties of teh Tribunes.
> >
> > Valete
> > Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24307 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
---Salve Consul:

I just wrote a very lengthy letter to Drusus Pontifex et
Senator...before you posted this note.

Vale,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites, et salve Luci Sicini,
>
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > The is no right of Provocatio in this matter.
>
> Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the laws with us, Druse.
> But as I mentioned earlier, I'm refraining from saying anything one way
> or the other until the Tribunes have addressed the appeal.
>
> I would recommend that all interested parties withold further
comment on
> this matter until we've heard from the Tribunes, and I ask the Tribunes
> to please speak explicitly on this matter soon.
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24308 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Decision Process of the Decretum
I wanted to thank the Honorable Marcus Cassius Julianus, Pontifex Maximus, for his message on the removal of Sp. Fabia Vera. It does help to see the inner working of the CP to fully understand how they came to the decision. Not that it is a process that really should be seen by the general populace, however since it did come into the open it does help.

Not to be disrespectful to any member of the CP, but since we have all be voicing opinions on this matter (myself included) I wanted to update my opinion. Some of the points the honorable Q. Fabius Maximus made are a little petty (no disrespect intended) but the big ones are very serious. Those being :

2. Publically declared she would follow her own beliefs even if College instructed her otherwise.
5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR "conversion" seems more political than religious
7. VI out of the VII Pontifices would not have voted for her as Sacerdote if all her beliefs were known. She falsified her application. We are just repairing a mistake.

I would like to have thought that the CP would have wanted to allow Sp. Fabia Vera the oppertunity to answer these charges before voting to remove her.

Ita di deaque faxint!
Marcus Traianus Valerius

------------------------------------------------------------
Gens Traiana Home Page
www.geocities.com/genstraiana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24309 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: : Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salvete; if the Tribunes are unable to take my case to the Comitia I
reserve the right to Provocatio directly to the Consules Gnaeus Salix
Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinius.
As I said I am not so well versed with Roman Law so excuse any
errors.

bene valete
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24310 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis to his friend L. Sicinius Drusus,
plus salutat mostly him with my rag-tag latin.

Senator Pontifexqve Druse,

Last week we went on almost 10 posts about the leaving of citizens of
Nova Roma.

You defended the argument that new laws were making citizens leave
Nova Roma. As you know, the cista has almost ended with consular and
tribunitian proposals.

I´ve stated that doesn´t happen, but I have agreed that ´punitive
legislations´ could make this effect.

Don´t you think the decreta of the pontifices, which you have voted
yes, expulsing Fabia Vera forever of priesthood, don´t you think this
punitive decretum will make citizens leave Nova Roma?

Coerence is a need of a Senator and a Pontifex. Please, it is the
time to state better your ideas in front of us.

With all respect to you, who I consider mostly, and for the high
level of our discussion.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24311 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: : Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salve,

We have received your apelo. Honour us mostly a citizen reling on the
Tribuneship, this so badly need magistrature of Ancient and Nova
Roma, to keep its individual sacred rights (although this do not
express in any level a judgment of mine on this question).

We are discussing the matters between us. Have patience. We are
deeply honoured by your calling, and may Ceres our patroness bless
you.

However the consules are also perfectly able to deal the question as
well.

But we still are on considerations. It is hard to say this, but
please wait us reach a conclusion. The discussion advanced mostly,
but the patterns and precedences involves a deep research, specially
caring about the religious procedures.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete; if the Tribunes are unable to take my case to the Comitia
I
> reserve the right to Provocatio directly to the Consules Gnaeus
Salix
> Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinius.
> As I said I am not so well versed with Roman Law so excuse any
> errors.
>
> bene valete
> Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24312 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Salve,

This isn't punishment, it's removal of someone who was found to be
unsuitable for the postion. It's no diferent than the Senate removing
or not prorouging a Propraetor, or a Magistrate dismissing a Scribe,
or for matter in the larger world, a corporation firing an employee.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis to his friend L. Sicinius Drusus,
> plus salutat mostly him with my rag-tag latin.
>
> Senator Pontifexqve Druse,
>
> Last week we went on almost 10 posts about the leaving of citizens of
> Nova Roma.
>
> You defended the argument that new laws were making citizens leave
> Nova Roma. As you know, the cista has almost ended with consular and
> tribunitian proposals.
>
> I´ve stated that doesn´t happen, but I have agreed that ´punitive
> legislations´ could make this effect.
>
> Don´t you think the decreta of the pontifices, which you have voted
> yes, expulsing Fabia Vera forever of priesthood, don´t you think this
> punitive decretum will make citizens leave Nova Roma?
>
> Coerence is a need of a Senator and a Pontifex. Please, it is the
> time to state better your ideas in front of us.
>
> With all respect to you, who I consider mostly, and for the high
> level of our discussion.
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24313 From: titusiuliusfalconius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Greetings to All. Questions of Interest
Salvete!


I was interested in beginning my civil career Novae Romae.
Perhaps as a scribe or some such position. I attempted to contact
the proconsul of California but have yet to receive a response (over
a week has passed). So I was curious if any other official would be
interested in having an assistant or point me in the right direction.


------------------------------------------------
IMP*TITO*CAESARI*DIVI*VESPASIAN*F*VESPASIANO*AVGPM*TRP*
VIIII*IMP*XV*COS*VII*DESIG*VIII*CENSORI*PATRI*PATRIAE*ET
*CAESARI*DIVI*VESPASIANI*F*DOMITIANO*COS*VI*DESIG*VII*PRINCIPI
IVVENTVTIS*ET*OMNIVM*COLLEGIORVM*SACERDOTI
CN*IVLIO*AGRICOLA*LEGATO*AVG*PRO*PR*
MVNICIPIVM*VERVLAMIVM*BASILICA*ORNATA

P.S. I have been looking into various inscriptions and translations.
The above isa reconstruction of the Forum inscription at Verulamium
(Britannia) Lines 3 and 4 were subsequently erased, after Domitian's
death and damnatio memoriae. If anyone else is up to it I'd like to
see some possible translations/interpretations. Thanks.



-T. Iulius Falco
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24314 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Dru
Drusus

After having repeated 5 times in 2 days that the laws are killing Nova Roma
(without providing a single solid evidence in support of your apodictic
statement), how many times will you repeat "It was just like the Senate
dismissing a praetor"? It's already twice in 3 hours, it gets boring.

Rather than that, why don't you explain the cives how exactly removing
someone from an office or, by your example, firing someone is not a kind of
punishment?

DCF

PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:drusus@...]
> Inviato: martedì 1 giugno 2004 23.00
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius
> Drusus
>
> Salve,
>
> This isn't punishment, it's removal of someone who was found to be
> unsuitable for the postion. It's no diferent than the Senate removing
> or not prorouging a Propraetor, or a Magistrate dismissing a Scribe,
> or for matter in the larger world, a corporation firing an employee.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24315 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Though not addressed to me, I will offer my opinion as still a rather
new citizen of Nova Roma of about 9 months. It hardly makes me wish
to leave Nova Roma. As a practioner, while I know nothing of the
legal proceedings that should go on, I do feel better that she is no
longer sacerdos. I feel that it has been made rather abundantly clear
that her devotion does not lie with Magna Mater in any manner other
then as an interest, her religious devotions rather being tied to
Buddhism. Also I was rather shocked at the disrespect she showed to
the CP. I do not believe that the role of sacerdos is a game to be
picked up and set down whenever you so please to do so, and should
require a certain amount of devotion to a particular deity. In fact
if she had been permitted to continue to act as sacerdos I would have
been weary as a new citizen of the seriousness of the Religio. The
actions of the sacerdos reflect on the cult, so I am not dismayed in
any manner with the decission of the CP.

Just from the point of view of a new citizen since that was your
concern of citizens taking flight. Of course I am sure there are many
differing opinions on the issue. I have said my two cents, and I will
leave it at that.

Lucia Modia Lupa

> Don´t you think the decreta of the pontifices, which you have voted
> yes, expulsing Fabia Vera forever of priesthood, don´t you think
this
> punitive decretum will make citizens leave Nova Roma?
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24316 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salve Pontiff and Senator Drusus,
this is my personal as Tribune about this points of the Costitution.

> The is no right of Provocatio in this matter.
>
> Section II B 5 of Nova Roma's Constitution states:
>
> " The right of provocatio; to appeal a decision of a MAGISTRATE
that
> has a direct negative impact upon that citizen to the comitia
populi
> tributa"
>
> The Pontiffs are not magistrates, so this section doesn't apply to
> their actions.

The point II B 5 in my opinion have a general meaning about the
word "Magistrate". In my opinion this word could involve the
Magistrates of the Res Publica and all the religious "Magistrates".
I agree with Pompeia, the point 7 of the Costitution gives us an
help in the understanding of the point II B 5.
And following the texts published by my colleague Tribunus Faustus,
in the Ancient Rome this procedures against religious decisions and
defending priests were quite normal. So if we follow the Mos Maiorum
we would read this point with a different meaning than your.

> Section VI B 1 c of the Constitution states that the Collegium
> Pontificum has the power:
>
> " To issue decreta (decrees) on matters relevant to the Religio
Romana
> and its own internal procedures (such decreta MAY NOT BE OVERRULED
by
> laws passed in the COMITIA or Senatus consultum)."
>
> A Drecretum was passed by the Collegium Pontificum stripping Sp.
Fabia
> Vera of her priesthood, that drecretum can't be over ridden by
either
> the Comitia nor the Senate.

I'm not an "specialist of english", but my dictionary says me that
MAY is a conditional clause and it means a probability. If the
dictionary is quite correct, the statement would mean that there are
possibilities in which the Decreta couldn't be overruled. It's not
imperative and the Costitution seems to give us an "open door".
It could mean that some time the Comitia could overrule a religious
Decretum.
Of course you know that I'm not an english-spoken and my english is
bad, but I invite the english spoken to give me their opinions.

> The Collegium has the same rights to dismiss someone whom it finds
> unsuitable as the Senate has to dismiss an unworthy Propraetor (as
it
> did in March of 2754) or a Magistrate has to dismiss an assistant
who
> has proven to be unsuitable for the postion. To do otherwise strips
> the Collegium, the Senate, and the Magistrates of any control over
> their subordinates.

The difference is that a Scriba or an assistant could call the
provocatio or the comitia to contest the decision of the own
Magistrate following the point II B 5.

So, if the Collegium have the rights to dismiss someone as a
magistrate, the priests are the rights for the provocatio as an
assistant.

In my personal opinion Sp. Fabia Vera would have the rights for the
Provocatio. In any way I would wait for the opinions by my
colleagues Tribunes and by the Consules.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Tribunus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24317 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1318
Salvete Omnes,

The below portion of that bothers me some. I understood that, at
this point, it was not going to be mandatory that any person or
priest perform sacrifices. The below indicates that such a position
is sufficient grounds for dismissal. Was it just your wording or am
I mistaken that only those who willingly espouse that viewpoint will
be considered suitable.
No offense intended, just inquiry.

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix
(whose just trying to puzzle all of this out)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil96@c...>
wrote:
> L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit
>
<SNIP>
> > 5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her
NR "conversion"
> seems
> > more political than religious
>
> And that's, again, unless you are a mind-reader of some sort,
another trial
> to
> her intentions.
>
> Cincinnatus: That along with her statements that she would never
under any
> circumstances preform a sacrifice were contributing factors in my
decision.
> There was no Trial! We simply reevaluated her suitiblity.
>
>
<SNIP>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24318 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Post 22150# April 14th, Fausta on Sacrifice
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Salve Consul, salvete Quirites:
Pontifex Gryllus posted about this on the Religio list last
September I believe, and I will look for his posts, where he quotes
the history of Numa, with passages, and disagrees with Scaurus.
This was critical for me in the Religio as I am a firm animal-
lover, vegetarian and also buddhist. I will NEVER do such a thing. If
it is required I will in all conscience resign my priesthood.
optime valete,
Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta
sacerdos Matris deum
--- End forwarded message ---
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24319 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and
L Equitius Quiritibus salutem dicit

Salvete

The following is just the sort of nonsense I was referring to when I said,
"I've come to the conclusion that People believe what they want, regardless
of how often and clearly the situation is explained. There are clearly a few
people who will not except any rational and will continue to agitate."



From: "pompeia_minucia_tiberia" <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: To Senator Drusus About the intercessio period 2

Salvete Senator et Pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus et Omnes:

Perhaps if you and I go through my post of this morning together, we
could see the elements a bit more clearly..

I have repeated myself in various ways, giving various angles of
application, in an attempt to cover every possible situation, to
facilitate comprehension and clarity.

L Equitius: Nonsense, you've done everything in your power to muddy the situation.

My responses to you in this post, Druse, will follow POMPEIA TO DRUSUS:

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> ---Salvete Francisce Apule, all other Tribunes and Consuls :
>
> Thanks for the enlightenment about the timeframe; frankly, I had a
> busy weekend, and I figured intercessio would have been called by now,
> if there was a plan in place amongst the Tribunes. I am not being
> sarcastic by any means, don't get me wrong, just stating facts.

L Equitius: As you see them maybe.


POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: You are quibbling about the semantics here, to
wit, 'MAGISTRATE" I kinda thought some might ...but read below,
beginning with "The right"........

> "The 'right' to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State
> in matters of RELIGIOUS and social dispute occuring both within and
> outside the direct jurisdiction of... (Nova Roma)"

L Equitius: She's gotten that. The College Pontificum has decided that she is not qualified to hold a priestly office.

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS:
>
> The preamble states that the Constitution is the highest authority,
> and when a lower authority comflicts with a higher authority, the
> higher authority serves as the most legal and therefore acceptable.
> By this, the decision of the collegium cannot interfere with rights
> contained in the constitution, and therefore such rights as provocatio
> and the 'right to seek assistance and advice in religious disputes'
> from the state cannot be altered by them.

L Equitius: The Constitution also give authority over religious offices to the College Pontificum. It certainly doesn't give every citizen the right to be a priest!

> I am not quibbling over the Collegium's ability or authority to
> discipline Fabia Vera, but the 'extent' to which she is being
> punished, and how, in light of what the Pontifex Maximus wrote
> yesterday, she was treated during these proceedings and the extent of
> their judgement.

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: You may throw her out, but only after she is
declared guilty by due process of law.

L Equitius: You still don't get it, or you refuse to anyway. There was no charge.

She is first and foremost a citizen...you must play fairly in a) advising her of proceedings pending and the 'beef' in question

L Equitius: The College is under no such obligation.

b) provide her with advocacy and

L Equitius: Again, where is this stipulated?

c)provide her with an objective hearing, in accordance with the law,
which is the Lex Salicia..pursuant to the Constitution, and the
Constitution itself, in a couple of areas.

L Equitius: What are you going on about? This was a decision taken by the College as is given by the Constitution. Where is there any mention of hearing that the College *must* hold? She was never charged under the Lex Salica.

If you want to say 'she's unsuitable', she is 'disrespecting of the
religio', disrespecting of the Pontiffs...you may only do so 'after'
it has been established that she is indeed in condemno of these
things...then you may throw her out.

L Equitius: That's what we did, based on her own actions and statements.

You are saying to me, that she has no appeal, nor right to trial under
the Constitution as a citizen 'because' she is a Religio Priestess...

L Equitius: Right, she was appointed by us and removed by us. Simple really, just like the Senate can remove a 'governor".

You are telling me that the loudmouth, Marconius who entered this
forum in 2000, blatently condemning the Gods of Rome was more
deserving than she is? Upon what grounds? He was tried and banished
by the SENATE...

L Equitius: You're still thinking of this as something it's not. She was appointed and she was UN appointed.
Not exiled, not banished, not punished, etc etc....
She just lost her appointment.


Where does the collegium get their authority, Senator et Pontifex
Drusus? The Constitution....they cannot conduct themselves contrary
to that in their proceedings, any more than a Sodalitas can...

L Equitius: The College conducted it's business as directed by the
DECRETUM DE RATIONE PONTIFICUM COLLEGII
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/pontifices/dec99073002.html

And why is a visit to the Comitia so dreadful, anyway?

L Equitius: Because it's not the business of the Comitia to make decisions on priestly offices. It would set a bad precedence, besides being unconstitutional.

AGAIN (not yelling) you may throw her out, but not in the manner you
did it...

L Equitius: Says you.

This whole affair has been conducted rather unlawfully in my
opinion...the Collegium does not have the right to be unlawful, they
must discipline within the confines and processes of LAW.

L Equitius: Now you are going too far. It held a meeting to discuss a few items on the agenda as directed by the DECRETUM DE RATIONE PONTIFICUM COLLEGII. Those items were voted upon and announced by the Pontifex Maximus. The College has done it's duty to protect the religio in some areas and further the relgio in others.

> Again, I am appealing the legal proceedings, and the gravity of the
> sentence...

L Equitius: On and on with this punishment nonsense and "legal proceedings" it was College business.

> Consider this: I am a registered member of the College of
> Nurses...

L Equitius: Do they follow the Religio?

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I cannot have my license revoked as a nurse by the
College of Nurses based on criminal activity, until I am 'proven'
guilty by a court of law...

L Equitius: There was no charge, no 'criminal activity'. It was not a trial.
It was a decision concerning Nova Roma priesthood that is CLEARLY under the authority of the College!!

POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I hope I have repeated myself enough times, to
make my argument more clear to you.

L Equitius: Idem

Valete

BTW Tribunus Fr. Apulus Caesar, the "Magistrates" are listed in the Constitution under, of all things, Magistrates! (imagine that?)
IV. Magistrates.
A. The ordinarii
1. Censor.
2. Consul.
3. Praetor.
4. Aediles Curules (Curule Aedile).
5. Aediles plebis (Plebeian Aedile).
6. Quaestor.
7. Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs).
8. Vigintisexviri (The Twenty-Six).
9. Apparitores (Attendants).

B. The extraordinarii
1. Dictator.
2. Interrex.

NO MENTION of Pontificies here!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24320 From: Manius Constantinus Serapio Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Absence
AVETE OMNES

> If needed please refer to my colleague Aedilis Curulis Scaurus or
> Quaestor Diana Octavia. For Provincial duties to Praetor M'const
> Serapio.

Just Governor, not Praetor yet :-)
BTW, I am taking part as Governor of Italia to this meeting too, as
well as other citizens :-)

BENE VALETE
Serapio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24321 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salvete Quirites,

FAC wrote:

[much, but I only want to address one small part]

> In my personal opinion Sp. Fabia Vera would have the rights for the
> Provocatio. In any way I would wait for the opinions by my
> colleagues Tribunes and by the Consules.

Since you're waiting for an opinion from me (and presumably my colleague
as well), here's how I think about the idea of placing Fabia Vera's
appeal before the Comitia Populi Tributa: I think it has sufficient
merit, given the clear questions concerning division of powers that have
arisen, for the Comitia as a whole to determine whether the question
deserves to be addressed. That said, there's very little that the
Comitia Populi Tributa can offer Fabia Vera by way of redress. It
certainly can not restore her religious office to her, as that would be
a clear encroachment into the management of the affairs of the Religio
which is entrusted to the Collegium Pontificum. However, I think that
the Comitia Populi Tributa could vote a resolution stating that Fabia
Vera had been denied due process, and requesting that the Collegium
Pontificum reconsider Fabia Vera's case while applying rules of evidence
and of process that would be commensurate with those established for
civil cases under the Leges Salicia.

Of course I can't imagine the Collegium Pontificum replying to such a
resolution with anything but thinly veiled contempt. The majority of
the pontifices have made their opinions quite clear on the matter
already, and any pressure is only going to make them more steadfast in
their insistance that they, and only they, have the authority to
determine who, when, where, why, and how anyone becomes or remains a
holder of religious office within the Religio Romana.

So in the end, if this question does go to the Comitia Populi Tributa as
an exercise of Provocatio, I'm convinced it will produce a standoff at
best and a Constitutional crisis at worst. Perhaps a better solution
would be for the Tribunes to work with the Collegium Pontificum in the
same way they worked with the Censors back in January, seeking a less
confrontational means of resolving matters.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24322 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
wrote:
> I'm not an "specialist of english", but my dictionary says me that
> MAY is a conditional clause and it means a probability. If the
> dictionary is quite correct, the statement would mean that there
are
> possibilities in which the Decreta couldn't be overruled. It's not
> imperative and the Costitution seems to give us an "open door".
> It could mean that some time the Comitia could overrule a
religious
> Decretum.

> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Tribunus

Salve,

Your English is far better than my Italian. Just a point concerning
the word "may." Like many words in English it has multiple
meanings depending on context in which it is used. For example, the
month of May is a proper name it does not mean that the month is
optional. In legal jargon, such as a Constitution, law, or a legal
contract, the word "may" takes on the meaning of "must." When the
Constitution states
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24323 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Dru
How many times are you going to stick your nose into affairs that are
none of your business?

As Often as you parade self apointed titles in your signiture in an
effort to decive others into thinking you are someone of importance?

Drusus
(Self apointed Grand High Poobah)


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Domitius Constantinus Fuscus"
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Drusus
>
> After having repeated 5 times in 2 days that the laws are killing
Nova Roma
> (without providing a single solid evidence in support of your apodictic
> statement), how many times will you repeat "It was just like the Senate
> dismissing a praetor"? It's already twice in 3 hours, it gets boring.
>
> Rather than that, why don't you explain the cives how exactly removing
> someone from an office or, by your example, firing someone is not a
kind of
> punishment?
>
> DCF
>
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
> Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
>
> > -----Messaggio originale-----
> > Da: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:drusus@b...]
> > Inviato: martedì 1 giugno 2004 23.00
> > A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Oggetto: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius
> > Drusus
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > This isn't punishment, it's removal of someone who was found to be
> > unsuitable for the postion. It's no diferent than the Senate removing
> > or not prorouging a Propraetor, or a Magistrate dismissing a Scribe,
> > or for matter in the larger world, a corporation firing an employee.
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24324 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1318
I believe it was more of a matter that she appeared to be publically
announcing that despite the decision made that it would be up to the
priests to decide whether they wanted to, or were capable of,
performing a sacrafice; that there would be no sacrafices within the
cult of Magna Mater. Rather then just not perfoming the sacrafices
herself. There is a choice, but she gave me the impression of being
opposed to it and speaking for all, and eliminating that choice from
others who currently serve or would serve in the future. As a
sacerdos it was not permissable that she do that, in attempt to
seemingly over-ride the decision of the CP. Despite claims that she
makes that she only meant it for herself, the way she presented it
publically was not only of a personal decision within her own
practices serving. But that is what I gathered.


Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The below portion of that bothers me some. I understood that, at
> this point, it was not going to be mandatory that any person or
> priest perform sacrifices. The below indicates that such a position
> is sufficient grounds for dismissal. Was it just your wording or am
> I mistaken that only those who willingly espouse that viewpoint
will
> be considered suitable.
> No offense intended, just inquiry.
>
> Valete,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
> (whose just trying to puzzle all of this out)
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil96@c...>
> wrote:
> > L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit
> >
> <SNIP>
> > > 5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her
> NR "conversion"
> > seems
> > > more political than religious
> >
> > And that's, again, unless you are a mind-reader of some sort,
> another trial
> > to
> > her intentions.
> >
> > Cincinnatus: That along with her statements that she would never
> under any
> > circumstances preform a sacrifice were contributing factors in my
> decision.
> > There was no Trial! We simply reevaluated her suitiblity.
> >
> >
> <SNIP>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24325 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
wrote:
> I'm not an "specialist of english", but my dictionary says me that
> MAY is a conditional clause and it means a probability. If the
> dictionary is quite correct, the statement would mean that there
are
> possibilities in which the Decreta couldn't be overruled. It's not
> imperative and the Costitution seems to give us an "open door".
> It could mean that some time the Comitia could overrule a
religious
> Decretum.

> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Tribunus

Salve,

Your English is far better than my Italian. Just a point concerning
the word "may." Like many words in English it has multiple
meanings depending on context in which it is used. In legal jargon,
such as a Constitution, law, or a legal contract, the word "may"
takes on the meaning of "must." When the Constitution states "may"
or "may not" as the Constitution is a legal document the proper
context is to mean "a must" or "a must not."

may aux.v. Past tense might
1. To be allowed or permitted to: May I take a swim? Yes, you may.

2. Used to indicate a certain measure of likelihood or possibility:
It may rain this afternoon.

3.Used to express a desire or fervent wish: Long may he live!

4. Used to express contingency, purpose, or result in clauses
introduced by that or so that: expressing ideas so that the average
person may understand.

5. To be obliged; must. Used in statutes, deeds, and other legal
documents.

--The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24326 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed
L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit

Salvete

--- In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Fabia Vera"
<rory12001@y...> wrote:
--- In ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> By a vote of 6 to 1 (myself being the dissenting vote), the
> Collegium Pontificum has voted to strip Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta of her
> position as Sacerdos Matris Deorum Magnae, and to ban her from ever holding > another religious office in Nova Roma.
>
Salvete omnes; Stripped of my priesthood with no warning, no trial
(as the vestal virgin Postumia had) and no appeal.

L Equitius: You were warned privately, and you were simply been let go as unsuitable. You were not condemned, exiled, nor did you lose your vote.

1. And this act by the CP is unhistorical
the 'foreign' priesthood of Magna Mater in Republican times was
supervised by the Decemviri, never the Collegium Pontificium.

L Equitius: Well, first off we don't have the "Decemviri", though we did have one once, but she disappeared.
In any case, the Constitution gives authority to the College for overall supervision of priesthoods.

VI. Public Religious Institutions B. The priesthoods ...
3. Other institutions and *priesthoods* may be instituted, and the rules for such set, by the collegium pontificum, in accordance with the ancient models of the Religio Romana as practiced by our spiritual ancestors.

So, even were there Decemviri the College still has overall authority.

2. Though the cult of Magna Mater was very important to Roma; the
priests & priestesses had a very louche reputation; for immorality &
drinking and all kinds of going on. It was no body's business but
their own, and they never historically were punished for any of this.

L Equitius: But these aren't the reasons you were let go.

3. Vestals have rules of decorum not foreign priests the CP has no
right whatsoever to meddle in Magna Mater's cult.

L Equitius: Wrong, we appointed you under the mistaken impression you were something you've proven not to be, vis a vis your application.
Anyway, Try this on for size since we're 'unhistorical', let's say for a moment we do things historical. You refuse to obey the mandates of the College. You make the 'suggestions' that a Pontifex be "sacrificed", and your the 'leader' of a foreign cult.
How long would you reasonably expect to live in ancient Roma?

4. Finally I have no desire to be subservient to the Collegium
Ponitificim which is entirely MALE. There is not one Female
Pontifex. If they want to create a new Taliban theocracy they can do
it without me.

L Equitius: How to win friends and influence people, make sexist remarks and call them Fascist too. You should go far!

BTW the fact that all the members are "male" is due to the fact that two "female" members resigned.

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24327 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Comments about the PM's post and various things.
Fuscus to Fabius

First of all, let's clear out a little thing:

> Before you start on me, I would like to point out in the spirit of the
> Goddess, I attempted to discuss this with you off list. You refused.
> You threatened me with prosecution, and you sent a copy to of my
> e-mail to the Consul for your protection. So much for our peace.

I had clearly told you to never address me privately. That I because your
posts to me *always* and I mean *always* manage to be disturbing. Even when
you try to be pleasing and accommodating you manage to slip an insult in
your emails, again, at last to me. Even when I had told you clearly that I
didn't want to receive any further mail from you, you *kept* sending them
(2, one a couple of weeks ago, one today). At that point I thought the only
way to have you stopping was to tell you straight that another mail would ad
been considered sollecitudo under the lex poenalis and I cced the mail to
the Consul for a lack of active praetors. Apparently, it worked so far, as I
haven't received any more private mail from you in the last 12 hours.

Said that, to clarify the thing.

> > And if we were back 2000 years, don't you think the
> > non-practitioner cives of Rome wouldn't' had commented in the forum
> > about the public dismissal of a sacerdos?
>
> Really? Do you not think that the citizens of Rome couldn't care less
> about the non practitioners opinion, since all Roman citizens were
> supposed to practitioners of the Religio? This is our biggest problem.
> Our greatest critics in NR are non practitioners, where in Old Rome this
> would not be true.

No, *your* biggest problem is that in NR there are non practitioners of the
Religio who are cives and who have the same equal identical rights you
have... your bigger problem is that, indeed, you couldn't care less about
what they think and then you get surprised they act in a hostile way and are
critic of such a behaviour.

> Well, it is after all a matter between members of the College and one
> of it appointees. How the citizens of Nova Roma comes into it, is a
> bit of stretch. Tell me, every time the Pontiff in Rome excommunicates
> a Catholic Priest for failing to follow the Holy See's directives, do
> you fire an angry e-mail in the Pope's direction? If not, why are we
> so blessed?

Oh, what an amusing comment. I've already explained why the every civis,
even the non-practitoners, has a vested interest in what is going on in the
CP, given the CP has a direct influence on his civis' life... you decided to
ignore it, fine. As for the Pope excommunicating a priest, first of all,
whatever the Pope does, it doesn't have a direct or indirect effect on my
civil life. secondly, I'm not a citizen of the Vatican.

> Really? I had no idea we were running a popularity contest.

And that's good, as I have some doubt you'd have a chance in winning it (nor
do I, but as you said, this isn't a popularity contest)

> Stop trying to grandstand here.

Bah

> What politics was involved? Vera's? She said she was apolitical if I
> recall. The those who follow the Religio look to the College for
> guidance. The non practitioners do not.

No, they do not, but sadly they have to stand some people who use the CP as
a mean to their goal an their title as a shield allowing themselves to be
downright uncivil towards their fellow cives and get away with it.

> You make it sound like the College is a Star Chamber and we have a
> secret list of proscriptions we are about to serve on the populace of
> Nova Roma.

The College, no, some of its members... well...
Incidentally, it's interesting the comparison YOU (not me) did between the
Collegium and the Star Chamber. The Encyclopaedia Bitannica says about the
Star Chamber that "Its procedure was not according to the common law. It
dispensed with the encumbrance of a jury; it could proceed on rumor alone"
and it was also known for severe restrictions or downright practical deny of
the right to self-defence. Considering that Fabia Vera was not notified of
any action pending against her, was not given the right of self-defence in
front of the Collegium and the whole procedure was not on his *acts* but on
his *words*, well, yeah, you are right, some similarities can be found. And
that is NOT because of the intrinsic nature of the body, an in fact its very
chief was concerned with such a procedure (how better it would be if all the
pontifices were like our Pontifex Maximus), but for some of his members'
one.

> You are entitled to say whatever you want. However we did not start
> this. Vera and her selfish approach to being a Sacerdote did.

That follows the old question... what was born first, the chicken or the
egg? I could say that you (rather, Drusus, still your side) started this
with his comment about Sabina Equitia Doris' moral concerns, actually its
downright rude dismissal of them (but he's a pontifex, he's allowed
anything, isn't it?), and you could find another cause prior to that, and I
another prior than yours and so on. I do not see the point in such a
research, I just comment on a single event.

> So you are saying that we should let her speak her mind, so she sends
> the wrong message to the citizens of Nova Roma no matter what the
> circumstances.

Nope, I'm saying that the Pontifex Maximus should have sent an official
warning and then an official note before any proceeding, and that she should
had been given the right to self defence.

> Let's try to put this in perspective.
> OK let's say the Propraetor of Uppergumland is not doing his job. No
> reports, no taxes, he threatened a Senator and he has been seen
> hanging out with members of the SVR. The Senate who hired him says
> "You knew the job requirements when you took the gig. You are not
> fulfilling them. You are fired." But our Propraetor says "Wait just a
> cottonpickin' minute. You can't fire me! I have reasons for not doing
> what I did. It was a huge joke. Some Senator attacked me, so I went
> to SVR for advice. I knew I wouldn't get a fair shake.
> Everybody here hates me. So what if I told him to go kill himself in
> front of 200+ witnesses! It was humor! I was defending my honor. So
> what if I would not follow the Senate's instructions on taxes? My
> personal beliefs are that Nova Roma should be free free free to all with
> no taxes, because I have to be true to me!
> Tell me, what would the Senate do?

A full 15 lines example, and you miss the point the Collegium did never
send, by its own chief's admission, a note or an official guideline to Fabia
Vera (in your example, the Senate's instruction on taxes). Incidentally, if
you could avoid slang expression when speaking when a not native that would
be kind... what is SVR? And what does "getting a fair shake" means?

> Actually I was following up on Iunius post. I misread her post, by
> missing the comma it appeared she was about to commit an act of
> Devotio. Since she could not kill herself I assumed she was about to
> resign her post as her Devotio. Of course after I sent the post I was
> informed otherwise, but you cannot unsend a Yahoo post. A major
> design flaw.

> So as I said, I did not. I misread her post. I thought she was about
> to resign. I even have witnesses to which I expressed my belief. Of
> course being friends of mine, that is useless since you assume
> everybody lies, especially here in the College.

Yeah Yeah Yeah... now shall we read what you said, ok?


Lanius said
>> Are we reading that the right way? I see she could be saying I
>> volunteer to sacrifice Scaurus OR I volunteer to be sacrificed
>> Scaurus. By definition, the ultimate big sacrifice through the ages
>> has been self-sacrifice. Let's hear what she has to say.

And to this YOU, Fabius, said
>So, Lanius you are saying that this was a declaration of Devoto? And
>not a
>mockery of a Pontifice? Interesting thought. It would not be the first
>time someone sacrificed themselves for Rome's benefit. She better get on
>with it then. Rome is watching.
>
>Q. Fabius Maximus

I seems to me that Lanius was undoubtly speaking of Fabia committing suicide
against sacrificing Scaurus and you were just as clearly inviting her to
commit suicide. Have the face to take responsibility for your own words,
will you? But ok, I could be wrong, everyone is free to *read* what you said
and decide for himself.. shall we have a poll?

> > You intended to mock her in person, not her
> > position as sacerdos, I presume, but following your reasoning, have
> > you mocked by that all the sacerdotes of NR?
> >
> Truthfully, I have never seen a Sacerdos engage in such suicidal
> behavior, before. Only one Sacerdos before this told the college that
> she would not follow their directives but resigned before she could be
> fired. I've seen sacerdotes resign because the Religio was not
> meeting their needs or they lost interest. And I intended nothing.
> You are putting words in my mouth, another of your traits I notice.

You nimbly dodged the point, didn't you? When you address someone who
happens to e in a given position, with harsh words (and that does' happen
too rarely), do you usually address that person, or we have to assume that
by that you intend to be harsh towards everyone holding the same office,
having the same position, being part of the same group?

> > Yet, practically speaking, she didn't do anything, given the College
> > didn't, as the PM said, sent official instructions. I do not know
> > how it is called in English, but in Italian that is called "trial to
> > the intentions" and is.. well, not too well looked upon.
>
> Really? I had no idea that we are practicing Italian Law here.

Oh, what a line... I thought that the trials based on the intentions of
someone were considered something bad everywhere, apparently it's just an
Italian thing.. do they actually send people to jail for their intentions in
the US? And exactly, how long does the criminal idea has to be in someone's
mind, even if never turned into any action, to be prosecutable?

> Besides we did not have to issue a directive. She said she would
> refuse
> all directives, publicly.

Which, as long as the PF had not told her expressly and officially to quit
doing, was well within her right. Did he? Nope.

> > Ah, so, if the civis is a pontifex is condemnable, if the civis is
> > not a pontifex, but just a sacerdos or an any civis, it can be
> > tolerated?
> >
> A so! What exactly are you Asoing about? You are saying that Iulius
> is not a Pontifice? He was when he was threatened and his position mocked.
> And even though he resigned, he rescinded his resignation.

No Fabius, try to concentrate.. I'm saying that in your 7 points of
condemnation towards Fabia Vera you underline the fact she mocked a Pontifex
and thus she had to go. Now, given you mocked a sacerdos in the very same
way, one has to come to the conclusion that either mocking a pontifex is
bad, but mocking a sacerdos is fine or... conclude the sentence?

> > > 5. Says she is a Buddhist/Shinto/Hindu follower. Her NR
> > > "conversion" seems more political than religious
> > >
> > And that's, again, unless you are a mind-reader of some sort,
> > another trial to her intentions.
> >
> I can only assume what the evidence shows. That comment was based on
> her posts on both the Religious list, the Main list, and the
> backalley. There were other Pontifices who came to the same
> conclusion, independently.

What evidences? Did you see her failing in the actual rites relative to the
cult of Magna Mater? Did she ever say she actually didn't believe in the
Magna Mater?

> I study Japanese Military History. I study Indian Military History.
> I understand the concept of both their religions and how it applies to
> the utilization and organization of their military.

Umm.. you study and understand them just as much as you are able to speak
Italian in a understandable way, as you claimed last November, demonstrating
in a matter of hours (at least to the ones who can really speak Italian
because it happens to be their first or second language), that you couldn't?

> However, I never mentioned that in my application as Pontifice because
> I'm not an active practitioner. Fabia Vera mentions several times on
> the Religio list her involvement in Eastern Religions. Most Eastern
> Religions. The Pontifices took the vote on the assumption that she
> would be devoted to the Great Goddess. Not just include Her in her
> many interests. We would have never accepted her if we knew that. We
> believe we were misled.

Oh, superi et inferi... I can't believe a Pontifex could say that... YOU are
saying that a polytheist can't be devoted to one specific divinity AND other
divinities as well at the same time in just the same way? I tend to believe
that a polytheist can be devotde to, let's say, Iuppiter, and at the same
time and with the same energy to an Eastern cult coming from Egypt and, why
not, a misteric cult coming from even more eastwards (and he shall have my
respect and, as long as it doesn't conflict with my own religion, I'll even
be glad to take part, if allowed, to his celebrations... I've taken part in
rites of a half dozen religions so far, personally I'd love to meet in a
mitreum an have a convivium with people believing in Mythra). If so, why on
heart couldn't someone be devoted to the Magna Mater AND believe in Buddah
as well or be devoted to one of the hindu gods?

> > Having yourself, Fabius, essentially committed the things you blame
> > under point 1 and 3, shall you punish yourself as well?
>
> Point 1. Being I threatened her. No, I did not. I assumed she was
> resigning when I made my post.

Yeah Yeah.. I invite everyone to re-read above what you said then and how
you said it and see if what you say now is credible at all. I personally
doubt it.

> Had she this circus could be avoided.

Sure, had you not opened NR to non Religio-practitioners could have avoided
that too, let' expel them all, shall we? We'll avoid more circuses.
Actually, let' close the mailing list, that's the most sure way to avoid the
exchange of ideas and opinions... pardon, circuses.

DCF

PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24328 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Flavius Vedius Germanicus Fr. Apulo Caesar S.P.D.



Salve Fr. Apulii



(Apologies for my atrocious Latin; I'm working on it!)



Loathe though I am to get involved in this dispute, I thought my input might be helpful on a few points, since I was the one who originally wrote the text of the Constitution. Please note that I am not expressing any opinion on the case at hand, but am, rather, speaking to the general legal question of the applicability of provocatio to the actions of the priestly Collegia.



> -----Original Message-----
>

> The point II B 5 in my opinion have a general meaning about the

> word "Magistrate". In my opinion this word could involve the

> Magistrates of the Res Publica and all the religious "Magistrates".

> I agree with Pompeia, the point 7 of the Costitution gives us an

> help in the understanding of the point II B 5.



Paragraph II.B.5. of the Constitution is very specific in its use of the term "Magistrates", which has a very specific meaning, and is defined in section IV. As regards the specific legal point at issue, if the right of provocatio were meant to apply to decreta as well as edicta, paragraph II.B.5. would specifically state so. It does not.



That is very intentional, by the way; otherwise the decisions of the Collegium Pontificum (and other priestly Collegia) would ultimately be subservient to the Comitia Populi. The Constitution was written in a way to specifically avoid that situation.



> And following the texts published by my colleague Tribunus Faustus,

> in the Ancient Rome this procedures against religious decisions and

> defending priests were quite normal. So if we follow the Mos Maiorum

> we would read this point with a different meaning than your.



For better or ill, Nova Roma does not (and indeed cannot) follow the Mos Maiorum in all things at this point in time. The Constitution, Leges, Edicta, and Decreta of Nova Roma must, in all cases, be honored, even when they contradict the Mos Maiorum. Most of the time, the difference is intentional, and necessary (I�ve been working on an essay on this topic, actually; hopefully I�ll have it done soon).



> I'm not an "specialist of english", but my dictionary says me that

> MAY is a conditional clause and it means a probability. If the

> dictionary is quite correct, the statement would mean that there are

> possibilities in which the Decreta couldn't be overruled. It's not

> imperative and the Costitution seems to give us an "open door".

> It could mean that some time the Comitia could overrule a religious

> Decretum.

> Of course you know that I'm not an english-spoken and my english is

> bad, but I invite the english spoken to give me their opinions.



This is actually a problem that even native speakers of English have, so don't feel bad at all. *smile*



"May" is not necessarily conditional. "May" (as opposed to "can") implies permission. So, when one uses "may not" as a phrase (as it is used in the Constitution), it simply means "does not have permission" (and would be therefore "imperative" as you use it above). If your interpretation of the phrase were correct and both conditions were allowed, it would say "may or may not", rather than "may not".



So there is no such "open door"; provocatio applies only to magisterial edicta, not priestly edicta. That was a conscious decision, and if the Constitution had intended otherwise, it would have been phrased differently.



It is a subtle point of English that, as you say, a non-native speaker may miss. I hope that clears that point up.



> > The Collegium has the same rights to dismiss someone whom it finds

> > unsuitable as the Senate has to dismiss an unworthy Propraetor (as it

> > did in March of 2754) or a Magistrate has to dismiss an assistant who

> > has proven to be unsuitable for the postion. To do otherwise strips

> > the Collegium, the Senate, and the Magistrates of any control over

> > their subordinates.

>

> The difference is that a Scriba or an assistant could call the

> provocatio or the comitia to contest the decision of the own

> Magistrate following the point II B 5.



I suppose that would depend on your interpretation of the phrase "direct negative impact", which is the criterion for invoking provocatio. I wouldn't think dismissal from an appointed post would rise to that level; after all, the power to appoint an assistant bears with it the implicit power to un-appoint that assistant.



> So, if the Collegium have the rights to dismiss someone as a

> magistrate, the priests are the rights for the provocatio as an

> assistant.



I confess I don't see how you make that leap. Just because magistrates behave one way in a given situation (i.e., taking away an appointment) does not mean that priests must necessarily behave the same way.



> In my personal opinion Sp. Fabia Vera would have the rights for the

> Provocatio. In any way I would wait for the opinions by my

> colleagues Tribunes and by the Consules.

>

> Vale

> Fr. Apulus Caesar

> Tribunus



I hope my words have been helpful in understanding some of the issues involved, both in terms of the intended and explicit meaning of the Constitution.



I certainly uphold the right of the Tribunes to practice Intercessio in this case under our Constitution, if it is determined that the Collegium Pontificum acted illegally or against the Constitution (and that is, of course, another discussion). But the Constitution, as written, does not allow for the exercise of the right of provocatio in this instance.



Vale,



Flavius Vedius Germanicus,

Pater Patriae



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24329 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: question to the Collegium
Salvete Illustri Pontefices,
I have a question for you and I hope you would help me. I'm trying
to understand the procedures adopted by the actual Collegium and its
illustri members helping my tired (for a day of hard job) mind of
Tribunes to take the best solution.
Please, don't consider this as an attack, this is only a supposition
to understand and I hope to receive your answers as soon as possible.

In the results of the last Collegium meeting some Pontefices said
that forme priest Sp. Fabia Vera couldn't decide the type of cult
about Magna Mater. Only the CP have the powers to do it and the
priests refusing the guidelines of the Collegium could be banned as
Sp. Fabia Vera.
This is hopinable but quite reasonable in my opinion.

But, please, take with me an example...
I know that in the roman cult of Magna Mater (a famous goddess
present in all the most important archaic and ancient religions
under several names like Terra, Great Mater, Cybele, Madonna, etc.)
there were male priest called GALLI. You could find long
descriptions of this figures on the web but I would suggest you to
read the researches made in the Magna Mater Project.
If for example a citizen ask you to be a Gallus and the Collegium
appoint him as requested by the rules and by him. So we could have
our first Gallus of Magna Mater. Well, as experts of Religio you
know that this Galli were eunuch, they were forced to CUT their
testicules. If you would be real traditionalist and the Collegium
are trying to rebuild the ancient cults, it would ask to this
citizen to cut his "most precious things". This citizen, with a
quite reasonable fear, could refuse to do it because immoral or
uncivil or crazy or against his life and what other we could imagine
and he would claim that nobody should do it.

My question is: in this example, the Collegium would remove the
citizen as Gallus and it would ban him from all the religious
offices for the life? What could happen?

I know this is a crazy and absurd situation, but we could understand
our procedures and legal ways only thinking about not-common
situations.

P.s.: This is what some politics said me during the last weeks
talking about the consequences of the Lex Salicia...

Thank you for your attenction, Illustris Pontefices.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24330 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Dru
Fuscus to Drusus

As a civis, everything about NR is my concern, to fail to see it is denying
the right of a civis to have an opinion and state it about every single
aspect of NR. I understand that is exactly your opinion, yet, unfortunately
for you, that right is granted to me by the Constitution.

Actually, I will say more, I think it's proper for a civis, a civic virtue
indeed, to have an interest in and follow as many aspects of NR as he can,
forming his own opinion and sharing it with others. The moment someone
decides that a given field of NR is not for one, some or most the cives to
meddle with, that is the moment you start killing the very spirit of a
civis.

Also, about my "self appointed" titles.. Paterfamilas was given to me by the
Censores, when they allowed me to create a gens in NR. Aedilis Urbis was
given to me by the cives of the Urbs following a law of NR. The curator
thing is not a tile, just an attribute and comes from a work I actually did
and put at the disposal of the cives.. actually, the very reason for it to
be there is not for vanity, but for public usefulness, as it is supposed to
be linked to the codex page (why sometimes it is and sometimes is no,
escapes to me... wonders of Outlook)

Incidentally, the idea that someone's value is measured by the number or
high-soundness of his titles didn't actually occur to me before you
mentioned it, I would hope people would judge me for what I say and do,
rather than for what is written at the bottom of my posts, as I very well
hope they will do for you, as well.

DCF

PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini

> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:drusus@...]
> Inviato: mercoledì 2 giugno 2004 0.11
> A: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius
> Drusus
>
> How many times are you going to stick your nose into affairs that are
> none of your business?
>
> As Often as you parade self apointed titles in your signiture in an
> effort to decive others into thinking you are someone of importance?
>
> Drusus
> (Self apointed Grand High Poobah)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24331 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
Salvete Illustrus Germanicus et Omnes,

thanks very much to you and Domitius Costantinus Fuscus and for the
messages about the meaning of MAY. I appreciated it.

Your opinions are quite clear and they are another piece in
this "complicated puzzle". I'm sure they will help the actual
discussion between the Tribunes.

Please, let me comment just a couple of statements, thank you.

> For better or ill, Nova Roma does not (and indeed cannot) follow
the Mos Maiorum in all things at this point in time. The
Constitution, Leges, Edicta, and Decreta of Nova Roma must, in all
cases, be honored, even when they contradict the Mos Maiorum. Most
of the time, the difference is intentional, and necessary (I've been
working on an essay on this topic, actually; hopefully I'll have it
done soon).

I understand what you mean and I agree, this is a correct way to
grow.
However a personal and hopinable comment: it seems to me (but I
could be wrong) that some men called Boni, the majority of teh
Collegium, claimed and called for the Mos Maiorum in NR as goal of
the nova roman traditionalists. So, I ask you all, we must to follow
the mos maiorum ever or we must stay in a "little red line" between
the Mos Maiorum and the modern needs of a modern organization like
NR? Do you understand that it could be a bit dangerous because
someone could jump from a side to the other justifying the own
personal views?

> This is actually a problem that even native speakers of English
have, so don't feel bad at all. *smile*

I'm less worried now, I thought it was only a my error as not native
speakers of english :-)
Thank you very much for your explanation.


> I suppose that would depend on your interpretation of the
phrase "direct negative impact", which is the criterion for invoking
provocatio. I wouldn't think dismissal from an appointed post would
rise to that level; after all, the power to appoint an assistant
bears with it the implicit power to un-appoint that assistant.

...

> I confess I don't see how you make that leap. Just because
magistrates behave one way in a given situation (i.e., taking away
an appointment) does not mean that priests must necessarily behave
the same way.

Of course, Germanicus, this was only a paradoxal example answering
to a paradoxal statement by Illustrus Drusus. It means that if we
put the Collegium on the same level of a ordinary Magistrate
appointing an assistant, we would put the sacerdos in the same level
of the assistant appointed by an ordinary magistrate.
So in a paradoxal procedure, if an assistant could invoke the
Provocatio because he thinks that his removal was not right and the
Magistrate had a direct negative impact on him, in the same way a
priest could invoke justice for a wrong (in his opinion, of course)
decision of teh Collegium.

What I mean is that if the opinion by Drusus is wrong, all this
words are unuseful because wrong. If you accept the words of the
Pontiff Drusus as quite correct, you should accept the all the
consequences written by me.

I hope you understand my complicated ideas ;-)

> I hope my words have been helpful in understanding some of the
issues involved, both in terms of the intended and explicit meaning
of the Constitution.

Of course, all the words of each citizen are useful for us as
Tribunes, from the Pater Patriae firstly to the most young cives.

> I certainly uphold the right of the Tribunes to practice
Intercessio in this case under our Constitution, if it is determined
that the Collegium Pontificum acted illegally or against the
Constitution (and that is, of course, another discussion). But the
Constitution, as written, does not allow for the exercise of the
right of provocatio in this instance.

The Tribunes can't not veto the religious Decretum because the time
is expired. We're discussing if there are and what are the other
solutions.

Vale
Fr. Apulus CAesar
Tribunus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24332 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia Vera
---
Salve Flavius Vedius:

In anticipation that someone might have difficulty with the semantics,
to wit, who is a 'magistrate', and who is not, I refer you to point 7,
which states that a citizen has a right to seek assistance and advice
from the state in matters of religious, social dispute...etc...this is
another basis for appeal, I feel, because Fabia Vera did not receive
any of those things in the process by which she was removed, as
evidenced by posts of yesterday, which I am not going to repeat, but
they are here Germanice, from today, for your reference.

So, given that this is listed as a right under the constitution, she
is entitled to an appeal to so furnish her with that which she did not
receive from the Collegium at the outset.

Further, dismissal from one's post...I would venture to say that a
Religious post carries far more passion and emotion to it, than a
governor's post, as one's piety is more intimately associated with a
Religious position....which is undefined in time...a post depends on
being prorogued or not, dismissed with the appointment and/or election
of a new 'boss' magistrate, etc.

So, when one's religious position is suddenly removed, by mechanisms
which are against rights defined in the constitution, by a Collegiate
body subject to the very ordinances of the constitution which gives it
the power it has, such no longer becomes an internal affair, and
renders accountability. She received no prewarning, no advocatus, and
no option to stand trial...she received far less than a
nonpractitioning big-mouth blasphemer would, as they would atleast be
afforded the opportunity to stand trial for Blasphemy before being
judged nefas....so I cannot trivialize this dismissal so lightly.

If you wish to forget section V, on the basis of semantics, this is
fine...but there is other verbage to indicate she was constitutionally
shortchanged.

Perhaps Pontifices like Lucius Equitius would like to experience a
change in venue over a few years of 'like-minded' Pontifices, who
suddenly decide that one isolated action of his renders him guilty of
nefas, and they boot him...from six years as a Pontifex and auger,
under the same circumstances as Fabia Vera...it would be indeed
interesting to see if he would carry the same degree of triviality and
accountability in his own demise as he does that of Fabia Vera.

The Collegium, to protect its following, the faithful, whatever, and
for its own protection, cannot hold itself above the law, even being
the State Religio...that is Orthodox procedure, when we are
essentially Orthopraxic, which is, upon examination of history, the
state of the religio to its people in Rome...an 'authority', but a
decentralized one, not a heirarchy.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Minucia
In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
<germanicus@g...> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus Fr. Apulo Caesar S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve Fr. Apulii
>
>
>
> (Apologies for my atrocious Latin; I'm working on it!)
>
>
>
> Loathe though I am to get involved in this dispute, I thought my
input might be helpful on a few points, since I was the one who
originally wrote the text of the Constitution. Please note that I am
not expressing any opinion on the case at hand, but am, rather,
speaking to the general legal question of the applicability of
provocatio to the actions of the priestly Collegia.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
>
> > The point II B 5 in my opinion have a general meaning about the
>
> > word "Magistrate". In my opinion this word could involve the
>
> > Magistrates of the Res Publica and all the religious "Magistrates".
>
> > I agree with Pompeia, the point 7 of the Costitution gives us an
>
> > help in the understanding of the point II B 5.
>
>
>
> Paragraph II.B.5. of the Constitution is very specific in its use of
the term "Magistrates", which has a very specific meaning, and is
defined in section IV. As regards the specific legal point at issue,
if the right of provocatio were meant to apply to decreta as well as
edicta, paragraph II.B.5. would specifically state so. It does not.
>
>
>
> That is very intentional, by the way; otherwise the decisions of the
Collegium Pontificum (and other priestly Collegia) would ultimately be
subservient to the Comitia Populi. The Constitution was written in a
way to specifically avoid that situation.
>
>
>
> > And following the texts published by my colleague Tribunus Faustus,
>
> > in the Ancient Rome this procedures against religious decisions and
>
> > defending priests were quite normal. So if we follow the Mos Maiorum
>
> > we would read this point with a different meaning than your.
>
>
>
> For better or ill, Nova Roma does not (and indeed cannot) follow the
Mos Maiorum in all things at this point in time. The Constitution,
Leges, Edicta, and Decreta of Nova Roma must, in all cases, be
honored, even when they contradict the Mos Maiorum. Most of the time,
the difference is intentional, and necessary (I've been working on an
essay on this topic, actually; hopefully I'll have it done soon).
>
>
>
> > I'm not an "specialist of english", but my dictionary says me that
>
> > MAY is a conditional clause and it means a probability. If the
>
> > dictionary is quite correct, the statement would mean that there are
>
> > possibilities in which the Decreta couldn't be overruled. It's not
>
> > imperative and the Costitution seems to give us an "open door".
>
> > It could mean that some time the Comitia could overrule a religious
>
> > Decretum.
>
> > Of course you know that I'm not an english-spoken and my english is
>
> > bad, but I invite the english spoken to give me their opinions.
>
>
>
> This is actually a problem that even native speakers of English
have, so don't feel bad at all. *smile*
>
>
>
> "May" is not necessarily conditional. "May" (as opposed to "can")
implies permission. So, when one uses "may not" as a phrase (as it is
used in the Constitution), it simply means "does not have permission"
(and would be therefore "imperative" as you use it above). If your
interpretation of the phrase were correct and both conditions were
allowed, it would say "may or may not", rather than "may not".
>
>
>
> So there is no such "open door"; provocatio applies only to
magisterial edicta, not priestly edicta. That was a conscious
decision, and if the Constitution had intended otherwise, it would
have been phrased differently.
>
>
>
> It is a subtle point of English that, as you say, a non-native
speaker may miss. I hope that clears that point up.
>
>
>
> > > The Collegium has the same rights to dismiss someone whom it finds
>
> > > unsuitable as the Senate has to dismiss an unworthy Propraetor
(as it
>
> > > did in March of 2754) or a Magistrate has to dismiss an
assistant who
>
> > > has proven to be unsuitable for the postion. To do otherwise strips
>
> > > the Collegium, the Senate, and the Magistrates of any control over
>
> > > their subordinates.
>
> >
>
> > The difference is that a Scriba or an assistant could call the
>
> > provocatio or the comitia to contest the decision of the own
>
> > Magistrate following the point II B 5.
>
>
>
> I suppose that would depend on your interpretation of the phrase
"direct negative impact", which is the criterion for invoking
provocatio. I wouldn't think dismissal from an appointed post would
rise to that level; after all, the power to appoint an assistant bears
with it the implicit power to un-appoint that assistant.
>
>
>
> > So, if the Collegium have the rights to dismiss someone as a
>
> > magistrate, the priests are the rights for the provocatio as an
>
> > assistant.
>
>
>
> I confess I don't see how you make that leap. Just because
magistrates behave one way in a given situation (i.e., taking away an
appointment) does not mean that priests must necessarily behave the
same way.
>
>
>
> > In my personal opinion Sp. Fabia Vera would have the rights for the
>
> > Provocatio. In any way I would wait for the opinions by my
>
> > colleagues Tribunes and by the Consules.
>
> >
>
> > Vale
>
> > Fr. Apulus Caesar
>
> > Tribunus
>
>
>
> I hope my words have been helpful in understanding some of the
issues involved, both in terms of the intended and explicit meaning of
the Constitution.
>
>
>
> I certainly uphold the right of the Tribunes to practice Intercessio
in this case under our Constitution, if it is determined that the
Collegium Pontificum acted illegally or against the Constitution (and
that is, of course, another discussion). But the Constitution, as
written, does not allow for the exercise of the right of provocatio in
this instance.
>
>
>
> Vale,
>
>
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>
> Pater Patriae
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24333 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and Po Responds to Equitius Cincinnatus Pontifex
---Salve Lucius Equitius Pontifex et Augur:

With respect, Pontifex, Augur, former Censor, you and I have locked
horns in the past over what is right and proper, and I am not going to
argue with you further than these few paragraphs. I have said what I
have to say.

As I said to Germanice, I somehow wonder if you, Lucius Equitius,
would give equal trivialization to the rightness and wrongness or your
sudden dismissal from the Collegium,after 6 or so years, using
procedures which didn't correspond with basic rights under the
Constitution, you were given no warning, or official notice of pending
procedures, you were not responded to when you appealed for an
advocus,who might have advised you about options for a trial (your
right) and you were judged by peers who perhaps had given many
indications prior to your dismissal, that they would be biased against
you, for this reason and that....

I somehow don't think you would take this dismissal lightly, as your
Priesthood, Augury, are indeed integral parts of your participation in
Nova Roma...why are you trivializing this situation as 'there is no
punishment'...would you not take this as a 'punishment', and an unjust
one at that?

I would bet money you would. But, alas, I cannot claim the
metaphysical capability of knowing someones actions so well that I
would oath to them...the only one I'm aware of, who has made that
claim recently is Pontifex Modius, and I'll give him the benefit of
the doubt that he was exaggerating to make a point...

I 'get'sic (understand) more than you think, and I refuse, yes
indeed,to acknowledge where your authority as a Collegial body is
above the very document that gives you your authority in the first
place, to the extent where it cannot be appealed, if unlawfully
executed...in section (s) of the constitution I have cited, and ones
you can find.

You may cite all the religious decretum you like, and this is fine;
but they can't supercede the constitution,any more than other bodies
under the constitution can (unless in the Collegium's case, as per the
constitution they are internal procedures, to wit 'how to's')... and
truly, the misapplication of law/constitutional rights on the part of
the collegium with respect to its dismissal of one of its members,
makes it no longer an internal affair, as it is a question of
illegality, making the matter subject to appeal and review, the
details of which are discussed below.

These statements are made with due respect to the Collegium being the
Supreme Religious Body in Nova Roma, but not so much that they can
squelch the law or a person's rights as a citizen in their policies
and disciplines.

Valete
P. Minucia






In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil96@c...> wrote:
> L Equitius Quiritibus salutem dicit
>
> Salvete
>
> The following is just the sort of nonsense I was referring to when I
said,
> "I've come to the conclusion that People believe what they want,
regardless
> of how often and clearly the situation is explained. There are
clearly a few
> people who will not except any rational and will continue to agitate."
>
>
>
> From: "pompeia_minucia_tiberia" <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...>
> Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 3:49 pm
> Subject: Re: To Senator Drusus About the intercessio period 2
>
> Salvete Senator et Pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus et Omnes:
>
> Perhaps if you and I go through my post of this morning together, we
> could see the elements a bit more clearly..
>
> I have repeated myself in various ways, giving various angles of
> application, in an attempt to cover every possible situation, to
> facilitate comprehension and clarity.
>
> L Equitius: Nonsense, you've done everything in your power to muddy
the situation.
>
> My responses to you in this post, Druse, will follow POMPEIA TO DRUSUS:
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
> <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> > ---Salvete Francisce Apule, all other Tribunes and Consuls :
> >
> > Thanks for the enlightenment about the timeframe; frankly, I had a
> > busy weekend, and I figured intercessio would have been called by now,
> > if there was a plan in place amongst the Tribunes. I am not being
> > sarcastic by any means, don't get me wrong, just stating facts.
>
> L Equitius: As you see them maybe.
>
>
> POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: You are quibbling about the semantics here, to
> wit, 'MAGISTRATE" I kinda thought some might ...but read below,
> beginning with "The right"........
>
> > "The 'right' to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State
> > in matters of RELIGIOUS and social dispute occuring both within and
> > outside the direct jurisdiction of... (Nova Roma)"
>
> L Equitius: She's gotten that. The College Pontificum has decided
that she is not qualified to hold a priestly office.
>
> POMPEIA TO DRUSUS:
> >
> > The preamble states that the Constitution is the highest authority,
> > and when a lower authority comflicts with a higher authority, the
> > higher authority serves as the most legal and therefore acceptable.
> > By this, the decision of the collegium cannot interfere with rights
> > contained in the constitution, and therefore such rights as provocatio
> > and the 'right to seek assistance and advice in religious disputes'
> > from the state cannot be altered by them.
>
> L Equitius: The Constitution also give authority over religious
offices to the College Pontificum. It certainly doesn't give every
citizen the right to be a priest!
>
> > I am not quibbling over the Collegium's ability or authority to
> > discipline Fabia Vera, but the 'extent' to which she is being
> > punished, and how, in light of what the Pontifex Maximus wrote
> > yesterday, she was treated during these proceedings and the extent of
> > their judgement.
>
> POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: You may throw her out, but only after she is
> declared guilty by due process of law.
>
> L Equitius: You still don't get it, or you refuse to anyway. There
was no charge.
>
> She is first and foremost a citizen...you must play fairly in a)
advising her of proceedings pending and the 'beef' in question
>
> L Equitius: The College is under no such obligation.
>
> b) provide her with advocacy and
>
> L Equitius: Again, where is this stipulated?
>
> c)provide her with an objective hearing, in accordance with the law,
> which is the Lex Salicia..pursuant to the Constitution, and the
> Constitution itself, in a couple of areas.
>
> L Equitius: What are you going on about? This was a decision taken
by the College as is given by the Constitution. Where is there any
mention of hearing that the College *must* hold? She was never charged
under the Lex Salica.
>
> If you want to say 'she's unsuitable', she is 'disrespecting of the
> religio', disrespecting of the Pontiffs...you may only do so 'after'
> it has been established that she is indeed in condemno of these
> things...then you may throw her out.
>
> L Equitius: That's what we did, based on her own actions and statements.
>
> You are saying to me, that she has no appeal, nor right to trial under
> the Constitution as a citizen 'because' she is a Religio Priestess...
>
> L Equitius: Right, she was appointed by us and removed by us. Simple
really, just like the Senate can remove a 'governor".
>
> You are telling me that the loudmouth, Marconius who entered this
> forum in 2000, blatently condemning the Gods of Rome was more
> deserving than she is? Upon what grounds? He was tried and banished
> by the SENATE...
>
> L Equitius: You're still thinking of this as something it's not. She
was appointed and she was UN appointed.
> Not exiled, not banished, not punished, etc etc....
> She just lost her appointment.
>
>
> Where does the collegium get their authority, Senator et Pontifex
> Drusus? The Constitution....they cannot conduct themselves contrary
> to that in their proceedings, any more than a Sodalitas can...
>
> L Equitius: The College conducted it's business as directed by the
> DECRETUM DE RATIONE PONTIFICUM COLLEGII
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/pontifices/dec99073002.html
>
> And why is a visit to the Comitia so dreadful, anyway?
>
> L Equitius: Because it's not the business of the Comitia to make
decisions on priestly offices. It would set a bad precedence, besides
being unconstitutional.
>
> AGAIN (not yelling) you may throw her out, but not in the manner you
> did it...
>
> L Equitius: Says you.
>
> This whole affair has been conducted rather unlawfully in my
> opinion...the Collegium does not have the right to be unlawful, they
> must discipline within the confines and processes of LAW.
>
> L Equitius: Now you are going too far. It held a meeting to discuss
a few items on the agenda as directed by the DECRETUM DE RATIONE
PONTIFICUM COLLEGII. Those items were voted upon and announced by the
Pontifex Maximus. The College has done it's duty to protect the
religio in some areas and further the relgio in others.
>
> > Again, I am appealing the legal proceedings, and the gravity of the
> > sentence...
>
> L Equitius: On and on with this punishment nonsense and "legal
proceedings" it was College business.
>
> > Consider this: I am a registered member of the College of
> > Nurses...
>
> L Equitius: Do they follow the Religio?
>
> POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I cannot have my license revoked as a nurse by the
> College of Nurses based on criminal activity, until I am 'proven'
> guilty by a court of law...
>
> L Equitius: There was no charge, no 'criminal activity'. It was not
a trial.
> It was a decision concerning Nova Roma priesthood that is CLEARLY
under the authority of the College!!
>
> POMPEIA TO DRUSUS: I hope I have repeated myself enough times, to
> make my argument more clear to you.
>
> L Equitius: Idem
>
> Valete
>
> BTW Tribunus Fr. Apulus Caesar, the "Magistrates" are listed in the
Constitution under, of all things, Magistrates! (imagine that?)
> IV. Magistrates.
> A. The ordinarii
> 1. Censor.
> 2. Consul.
> 3. Praetor.
> 4. Aediles Curules (Curule Aedile).
> 5. Aediles plebis (Plebeian Aedile).
> 6. Quaestor.
> 7. Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs).
> 8. Vigintisexviri (The Twenty-Six).
> 9. Apparitores (Attendants).
>
> B. The extraordinarii
> 1. Dictator.
> 2. Interrex.
>
> NO MENTION of Pontificies here!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24334 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re Comments to Consul Equitius: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fabia
--Salve Honoured Consul Equitius Marinus:

My comments below, if I may, Consul....


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> FAC wrote:
>
> [much, but I only want to address one small part]
>
> > In my personal opinion Sp. Fabia Vera would have the rights for the
> > Provocatio. In any way I would wait for the opinions by my
> > colleagues Tribunes and by the Consules.
>
> Since you're waiting for an opinion from me (and presumably my
colleague
> as well), here's how I think about the idea of placing Fabia Vera's
> appeal before the Comitia Populi Tributa: I think it has sufficient
> merit, given the clear questions concerning division of powers that
have
> arisen, for the Comitia as a whole to determine whether the question
> deserves to be addressed. That said, there's very little that the
> Comitia Populi Tributa can offer Fabia Vera by way of redress. It
> certainly can not restore her religious office to her, as that would be
> a clear encroachment into the management of the affairs of the Religio
> which is entrusted to the Collegium Pontificum.

Pompeia : Granted Sir, this part of it, I can see...but if you look
at Fabia Vera's posts, many of them cite disgruntlement with a lack of
trial proceedings, so although this is surely causing Fabia Vera some
personal grief, she is not citing this as the sole reason for her
appeal..a few times she has cried out 'no trial', and rightfully so.
As for how the Lex Salicia can be approached, that is a matter which,
in my opinion can be subsequently approached, and should not be the
subject of Provocatio...it is the miscarriage of justice by which she
received her dismissal.


However, I think that
> the Comitia Populi Tributa could vote a resolution stating that Fabia
> Vera had been denied due process, and requesting that the Collegium
> Pontificum reconsider Fabia Vera's case while applying rules of
evidence
> and of process that would be commensurate with those established for
> civil cases under the Leges Salicia.

Pompeia: Although, they cannot force the Collegium's hand in this
case, only recommend things, I guess, they can certainly declare that
their treatment of this situation is not appropriate and that they
should work as soon as possible on a conduct code of Pontifices, and
conditions under which one can be dismissed from their religio
position, and the exact mechanics by which this will transpire. Said
decretum must fall in line with the constitution, and by established
procedures of trial, where applicable. When a Priestess gets the
boot, with undefined and irregular proceedings which are well variant
from the Lex Salicia, and basic citizen rights under the Constitution,
yet a man off the street who mouths off, gets a trial, gets to pick
his judges, an advocus.....we are doing something wrong...something is
not right here, nonne?

The key issue here, honoured Consul, is that we must all follow the
very law which gives us our authority in the first place, the document
which is primus in proper process, the constitution, and leges that
fall pursuant to that, notwithstanding of course, the clauses which
guard the collegium's 'internal affairs', but again, that is subject
to the very document wherein which this is worded, the
Constitution...would you not think, with respect?
>
> Of course I can't imagine the Collegium Pontificum replying to such a
> resolution with anything but thinly veiled contempt. The majority of
> the pontifices have made their opinions quite clear on the matter
> already, and any pressure is only going to make them more steadfast in
> their insistance that they, and only they, have the authority to
> determine who, when, where, why, and how anyone becomes or remains a
> holder of religious office within the Religio Romana.
>
> So in the end, if this question does go to the Comitia Populi
Tributa as
> an exercise of Provocatio, I'm convinced it will produce a standoff at
> best and a Constitutional crisis at worst. Perhaps a better solution
> would be for the Tribunes to work with the Collegium Pontificum in the
> same way they worked with the Censors back in January, seeking a less
> confrontational means of resolving matters.
>
Pompeia: I respectfully disagree. There is nothing wrong with the
populace declaring that it is unacceptable for the Collegium to
conduct its dismissals with variance from voted and established
proceedings lawfully mandated...with comcommittant denial of rights.
Indeed, they are in authority, but they are equally accountable for same.

I am rather sure that the collegium will not readmit Fabia Vera, and
truthfully, I am not sure she thinks that either...the point is,
should this happen to other people, under the same circumstances,
using the same mechanisms.

Honoured Consul, we are not taking about a legatusship here...we are
talking about a Priestessship, which carries a good deal of emotional
and spiritual investment..hardly a regular dismissal of a position due
to 'unsuitablility'. The only unsuitability accompanying dismissal of
a Priestess can be construed as Religious Misconduct...call it nefas,
impiety, blasphemy...surely this is worthy of lawful and thoughtful
proceedings, and the option of a trial?

These are the elements which concern me, with respect to appeal to the
Comitia. Any subsequent actions Fabia Vera wishes to take with
respect to her situation, is not the sole element for calling the CPT
in my opinion, here and now. The element of the method of dismissal
and how this is going to be approached in the future, is the key concern.

It would be 'nice' and an act of piety, if the Collegium would
collectively find in in their heart to reconsider this whole
unfortunate mess and consider readmitting her, but that is a
sentiment, and I fear something which cannot be fully mandated.

Vale,
P. Minucia
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24335 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Fwd: Re: RELIGIO DECRETUM - Sp. Veria Fausta is Removed
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil96@c...>
wrote:
>
> BTW the fact that all the members are "male" is due to the fact
that two "female" members resigned.
>

Salve,

Cincinnatus, does this mean that the Collegium Pontificum is
accepting and actively considering Pontifex applications from women?
That is *excellent* news!

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24336 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: R: [Nova-Roma] Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

If you consider removing/firing someone for unsuitability or incompetance a punishment then so be it.

In a message dated 6/1/2004 5:30:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dom.con.fus@... writes:

> Rather than that, why don't you explain the cives how exactly removing
> someone from an office or, by your example, firing someone
> is not a kind of
> punishment?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24337 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Traiano Valerio salutem dicit

Fabia Vera was only a sacerdos for a few months before she was removed. In just a short time since being appointed she refused to accept the decretum of the Collegium Pontificum regarding the issue of animal sacrifice. She additionally made a joke of an official ceremony to Condordia were an animal (ie., chicken) was sacrificed. This sort if irreverent behavior by priests of Nova Roma cannot, and will not be tolerated.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis, Pontifex, Augur, and Flamen Pomonalis

In a message dated 6/1/2004 1:11:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, genstraiana@... writes:

> It is my opinion that if she has preformed well to this point, the punishment may have been too severe and they may have been other corrective action that the CP could have taken to show their displeasure and to make sure that any statments
> like that are approved by the CP prior to being made public.
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Ita di deaque faxint!
> Marcus Traianus Valerius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24338 From: Julia Cybele Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: My dupondius worth ...Re: Apelo for...
IVLIA VOPISCA QVIRITIBVS S P D

It grieves me to witness how words and events manage to so quickly
escalate, again and again, to the misfortune and loss of the
disputing parties... of others who react by rapid instinct... and of
the whole community.

I search my heart for words that might be constructive, but it
nearly seems in vain. Iulius Scaurus is my deeply-respected frater;
Fabia Vera has been my colleague as a Sacerdos in devotion to Magna
Mater. I would hope for Fortuna to always favor them well, both of
them, and that all of us might get past the negative events of
recent days and perhaps salvage some wisdom to carry forward.

It would be a fine thing if the Decretum could be rescinded and
reconsidered in a view that makes haste more slowly. I do feel that
as much as sensitivities have been stung, the more important it is
to assure that fairness and due process are rigorously observed. It
would seem the wise thing to avoid yet more hasty judgment, yes?
Truly, no one asked my opinion; it is given with a wish to quench
flames of discord, not increase them.

Sometimes attempts at humor go far astray; certainly words do...
more often in this electronic format than happens face to face. This
is not a problem unique to our community. Possibly against my better
judgment, I chose not to remain silent, seeing a mere possibility of
encouraging reconciliation through what's noblest in every heart.

BENE VALE IN LUCE MATRIS DEVM ET IN PACE CONCORDIAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24339 From: Equestria Iunia Laeca Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: and now for something completely different
Salve,

> Q. Fabius Maximus wrote:
> My friend, I have been here six years. I'll be here another six. I see
> nothing changing as long as the citizens have diverse opinions. One day,
a
> balance will be reached, and once
> again we will lurch forward. Baby steps. Virgil said "Rome wasn't built
in
> a day." One would think back engineering this would be rather easy. It
is.
> We just forgot to take in the human factor.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of your points. In an earlier email
dated May 24th (Re: [Nova-Roma] The Boni]), you mentioned that many of the
current debates are cyclical and this adds to some of the frustration felt
among longer citizens (I paraphrased some). I have searched among the
archives and have not been able to find an area where debates have been
cataloged or future plans to catalog debates has been discussed. Since I
believe over the past six years chances something along this line has most
likely been discussed, I doubt this is an original idea. However, I will go
ahead with it anyway. If some of the more worn debates were cataloged,
something along the lines of the way the library of congress does it
http://catalog.loc.gov/ (i.e. by subject, author, etc) this may help to
lower the strain between citizens. So instead of reiterating every debate
over again, newer citizens can research prior debates along with the
outcomes. I have more opinions on this subject and would be glad to be
directed to a source where I can read up on what has been the position of
Nova Roma in the past. For instance, it seems this would be an area
Octavius would have considered since the archives are extensive and he has
obviously put a lot of work into them.

Vale,

Equestria Iunia Laeca
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24340 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and Po Responds to Equitius Cincinnatus Pontifex
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Augurs are appointed for life, as long as they maintain their citizenship.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 6/1/2004 8:47:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pompeia_minucia_tiberia@... writes:

> I somehow don't think you would take this dismissal lightly, as your
> Priesthood, Augury, are indeed integral parts of your participation in
> Nova Roma...why are you trivializing this situation as 'there is no
> punishment'...would you not take this as a 'punishment',
> and an unjust
> one at that?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24341 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: Apelo for... and Po Responds to Equitius Cincinnatus Pontifex
---Salvete Modius Pontifex et Omnes;

Nonetheless, if the Augur is a Pontifex, that would not necessarily
stop him from being removed from the roles of the CP, as, apparently,
there are no guidelines to the contrary...the only thing to check
Collegium behaviour is the constitution, and the pertinent leges
pursuant to that constitution.

Nay....I wouldn't regard an augurship as salvation from being expelled
from the Collegium...based on what I have seen recently, with due respect.

Valete
P. Minucia




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
>
> Augurs are appointed for life, as long as they maintain their
citizenship.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 6/1/2004 8:47:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y... writes:
>
> > I somehow don't think you would take this dismissal lightly, as your
> > Priesthood, Augury, are indeed integral parts of your participation in
> > Nova Roma...why are you trivializing this situation as 'there is no
> > punishment'...would you not take this as a 'punishment',
> > and an unjust
> > one at that?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24342 From: Pat Date: 2004-06-01
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
Salvete,

There is a modern understanding that's leaked into this discussion. While
I will admit that I personally find a certain discontinuity between what I
know of the Magna Mater cult and the common tenets of Buddhism, I'm not an
expert on either. That said, I do not see anything that keeps someone from
embracing the Religio AND at the same time other religions that do not
actively mandate an exclusivist position. Since the ancient perspective is
that it's orthopraxy that's important, not orthodoxy, it seems that the
Gods would not require a certain belief of those responsible for the
practice of their cults.

So long as the rites are performed scrupulously, then the 'contract'
between the people and the Gods is fulfilled. Think what you will, but
perform the rites as prescribed.

There is nothing in ancient religious Roman perspective that keeps one from
adhering to one deity while honoring another. For that matter, since
Buddhism includes traditions which are (from a Western perspective) more
schools of philosophy and behavior, and are not concerned with the Gods,
there may be no contradiction at all... at least no more than might have
existed for an adherent of one of the Greek philosophies when called on to
actively participate in the public religion.

So, I see it as possible--but not a given--that one can honor two traditions.

Valete,
M. Umbrius Ursus

At 06:27 PM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
>From: "Samantha" <lucia_modia_lupa@...>
>Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>Though not addressed to me, I will offer my opinion as still a rather
>new citizen of Nova Roma of about 9 months. It hardly makes me wish
>to leave Nova Roma. As a practioner, while I know nothing of the
>legal proceedings that should go on, I do feel better that she is no
>longer sacerdos. I feel that it has been made rather abundantly clear
>that her devotion does not lie with Magna Mater in any manner other
>then as an interest, her religious devotions rather being tied to
>Buddhism. Also I was rather shocked at the disrespect she showed to
>the CP. I do not believe that the role of sacerdos is a game to be
>picked up and set down whenever you so please to do so, and should
>require a certain amount of devotion to a particular deity. In fact
>if she had been permitted to continue to act as sacerdos I would have
>been weary as a new citizen of the seriousness of the Religio. The
>actions of the sacerdos reflect on the cult, so I am not dismayed in
>any manner with the decission of the CP.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24343 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Some comments on the dismissal of Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta.
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

I would like to make a few points regarding the issues surrounding the
dismissal of Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta:

1. Holding a religious office in Nova Roma is a privilage *not* a right.

2. The Collegium Pontifficum has the sole and ultimate authority on what
is and is not considered acceptable within the State Religio. This
includes who is and is not an official priest/ess of the State Religio.

3. The views/actions of Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta in regards to the State
Religio were found to be unacceptable by a majority of the Collegium
Pontifficum, hence she was removed from office.

4. Under the Nova Roman constituion she is free to practice her
religious beleifs as she sees fit, and I respect that right. She is
*not* free to make those views an official part of the State Religio in
opposition to the majority viewpoint of the Collegium Pontifficum.

5. I have *no* personal animosity towards Sp. Fabia Vera Fautsa. While I
think the tone of some of her posts was unfortunate, I could say the
same about a lot of other Nova Romans as well. I have no animosity
towards her personal religous beliefs either. I do, however, feel they
are incompatbible with the State Religio of Nova Roma, as such I voted
"Uti Rogas" to remove her from her priesthood along with the majority of
the Collegium Pontifficum.

I did not vote to remove her for political reasons. I did not vote to
remove her becuase the Boni told me so. I did not even vote to remove
her becuase she insulted my friend and colleague Pontifex G. Iulius
Scarus. I voted to remove her becuase I believe her religious views are
incompatible with the *State* Religio and becuase I do not think she
accepts the ultimate authority of the Collegium Pontificum. In
retrospect it was a mistake to appoint her in the first place. Not
because she is a bad person, or lacks personal piety, or comitment to
the Gods as she understands them, but rather becuase her understanding
of the Gods is to much at variance with the official State Religio as
defined by the Collegium Pontifficum. To Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta: If you
felt you were mislead regarding the nature of the official Religio of
NR, and what being a priestess would entail, then I apologize. The State
Religio, like NR itself is a work in progress, and we make mistakes. I
hope that becuase of this incident the Collegium will review its
procedures for screening applicants for official priesthoods to prevent
this sort of unfortunate incident from occuring again.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24344 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Mock Trial I
Mock Trial I


Note: This is the first of a series of mock trials,
whose results can, eventually, be used as guideline in
future cases. However, it can't be considered
Iurisprudentia, of course.

----------
The case:
Yesterday, this Praetor received a Petitio, from the
citizen Gaius Complainius. He says that the citizen
Gaius Dangerosus offended him, in the message number
"X", published in the main list.
The Praetor verified the message, in which Gaius
Dangerosus says, publically, to Gaius Complainius,
that "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt
of elderberries" and "you is a son of a silly person".
The Praetor concluded that this was an attack to the
dignitas of Gaius Complanius, according with Lex
Salicia Poenalis, XIV.A. The other Praetor agrees, and
the Petitio is approved.
Gaius Dangerosus is informed, by the Praetores, of
the nature of the claim presented against him.

This is the Formula:

Institutio Iudicis
- Since the case is about an attack to dignitas (Lex
Salicia Iudiciaria, VIII.a.), there will be 10
iudices, according to the Law

Intentio
- intentio certa; the message "X" is clearly depicted
in the main list.

Demonstratio
- not invoked because of the intentio certa.

Condemnatio
- Declaratio Publica; the reus, if convicted, shall
make a public apology, and so retracting the ofensa
and restoring the dignitas of the actor;
- Inhabilitatio: the reus, if convicted, shall be
barred of candidature for public office, and put into
moderation in the main list, until the Praetor
recognizes the Declaratio Publica.

Now, the Praetor is considering the composition of the
body of Iudices, and calling for candidates.

----------

So, cives, it is the case. Every step will be
described, comments are welcomed.
Do you want to participate? If so, you can be a iudex
("The album iudicium shall include the names of all
the assidui citizens that have been citizens of Nova
Roma for over a year"). Both the reus and the actor
are searching for advocates ...


Vale
Marcus Arminius
Praetor

______________________________________________________________________

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24345 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Greetings to All. Questions of Interest
Salve


Titus Iulius, there are lots and lots of work that are
waiting for people in Nova Roma.
For example, the bookstore in the macellum. If only
someone could expand the number of books about Rome,
the number of reviews, and so. . Im sure that a
Aedilis cand hire you a scriba if you (or anybody
else) volunteer for such a worthful effort (if not, i
can name you, or anybody else, scriba praetoris for
this task).

http://www.novaroma.org/macellum/bookstore.html


--- titusiuliusfalconius <thrax77@...>
escreveu: >
> Salvete!
>
> I was interested in beginning my civil career
> Novae Romae.
> Perhaps as a scribe or some such position. I
> attempted to contact
> the proconsul of California but have yet to receive
> a response (over
> a week has passed). So I was curious if any other
> official would be
> interested in having an assistant or point me in the
> right direction.
[..]
> -T. Iulius Falco

Vale
M.Arminius


______________________________________________________________________

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24346 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Sundials
Salve


Here are two interesting links to the Solarium
Augusti, the giant sundial that Augustus build in the
Campus Martius, with an egyptian obelisk.
One is in french, and another is italian, bot the
images/figures are very good. And, hum, i didnt learnt
that trick of shortening the label (what is the name?
ad-short?), so we have a 4-line link.

http://www.unicaen.fr/rome/romeOld/geographique/horologium.html

http://www.comune.roma.it/sovraintendenza/arapacis/default.asp?content=%2Fsovraintendenza%2Farapacis%2FNuova%5FRisorsa%5F2004311257544667466%2FNuova%5FRisorsa%5F2004220174057636578%2FScheda%2Easp


--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
escreveu: > Salvete Quirites,
>
> In the lovely article discussing dies posted earlier
> today by Tribune
> Faustus, there's a discussion of sundials and how
> they were calibrated.
> As an astronomer, sundials are dear to me, and I
> thought some of you
> might be interested in more information about the
> history, development,
> and use of sundials for timekeeping.
>
> So, several useful links for anyone who's
> interested:
>
> First, the Encyclopaedia Britannica article online
> discussing sundials
> is "Sundial." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004.
> Encyclopædia Britannica
> Premium Service. 25 May 2004
> <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=72195>.
>
> If that doesn't satisfy your interest, there's the
> wonderful "Sundials
> on the Internet" website, covering all things
> sundial, from history to
> the equations of time to the practicalities of
> making and aligning your
> own sundials: <http://www.sundials.co.uk/>.
>
> There's also a nice page full of lesson plans and
> ideas for teachers,
> home-schoolers, and anyone else interested in some
> sundial related
> activities (Tiberius, you might want to grab these
> for your summer
> camp!)
>
<http://www.fi.edu/time/Journey/Sundials/lessons.htm>.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Valete,
> -- Marinus

Vale
M.Arminius


______________________________________________________________________

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24347 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
I would agree that one could participate in two traditions if they
were not clashing theoretically. However, in a situation when you are
primarily occupied with one set of beliefs (the one you are not
serving publically as a priestess) then there is a problem in my
opinion. It is a clash of interest to put one's god(dess) that they
serve for the people second to another belief and philosphical
outlook. If one is to serve two beliefs that do not oppose each
other, I would think that it would be in good taste to at least
devote oneself publically at least to that which benefits the people
concerned. Also it is my opinion that if you are going to practice
two belief structures, then you should keep them completely seperate
and uninfluencing each other. It is poor taste to flaunt ones
practice in a belief system that has nothing to do with the Religio
or any other religious structures recognized by Nova Roma, when they
are supposed to be a sacerdos. But that is my opinion.

However I do agree that what is of great importance is that the
rituals are being done and done correctly. But how can one have
confidence that this is happening when it is made quiet clear
publically that the attention and focus of the sacerdos is elsewhere?

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Pat <p-mclaughlin@c...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> There is a modern understanding that's leaked into this
discussion. While
> I will admit that I personally find a certain discontinuity between
what I
> know of the Magna Mater cult and the common tenets of Buddhism, I'm
not an
> expert on either. That said, I do not see anything that keeps
someone from
> embracing the Religio AND at the same time other religions that do
not
> actively mandate an exclusivist position. Since the ancient
perspective is
> that it's orthopraxy that's important, not orthodoxy, it seems that
the
> Gods would not require a certain belief of those responsible for
the
> practice of their cults.
>
> So long as the rites are performed scrupulously, then
the 'contract'
> between the people and the Gods is fulfilled. Think what you will,
but
> perform the rites as prescribed.
>
> There is nothing in ancient religious Roman perspective that keeps
one from
> adhering to one deity while honoring another. For that matter,
since
> Buddhism includes traditions which are (from a Western perspective)
more
> schools of philosophy and behavior, and are not concerned with the
Gods,
> there may be no contradiction at all... at least no more than might
have
> existed for an adherent of one of the Greek philosophies when
called on to
> actively participate in the public religion.
>
> So, I see it as possible--but not a given--that one can honor two
traditions.
>
> Valete,
> M. Umbrius Ursus
>
> At 06:27 PM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
> >From: "Samantha" <lucia_modia_lupa@y...>
> >Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >Though not addressed to me, I will offer my opinion as still a
rather
> >new citizen of Nova Roma of about 9 months. It hardly makes me wish
> >to leave Nova Roma. As a practioner, while I know nothing of the
> >legal proceedings that should go on, I do feel better that she is
no
> >longer sacerdos. I feel that it has been made rather abundantly
clear
> >that her devotion does not lie with Magna Mater in any manner other
> >then as an interest, her religious devotions rather being tied to
> >Buddhism. Also I was rather shocked at the disrespect she showed to
> >the CP. I do not believe that the role of sacerdos is a game to be
> >picked up and set down whenever you so please to do so, and should
> >require a certain amount of devotion to a particular deity. In fact
> >if she had been permitted to continue to act as sacerdos I would
have
> >been weary as a new citizen of the seriousness of the Religio. The
> >actions of the sacerdos reflect on the cult, so I am not dismayed
in
> >any manner with the decission of the CP.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24348 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: About the Oath of Office for provincial and local magistrates.
Salve, Corde.

The Lex Cassia-Iunia de Iusiurando states that *any* elected
magistrate or appointed official of Nova Roma must take publicly
the Oath, in the major public forums.

Since the provincial and local magistrates or officials are as
novarromans as the ones of central government, they must take
the Oath as a sign of loyalty towards the Res Publica, and in
order to fulfill the requirements of the law, that says: "The
office shall be considered vacant until the oath is taken".

Respectfully,



=====

H·RVTILIVS·I·FIL·R·NEP·CLVST·TRIB·BARDVLVS
PATER·GENTIS·RVTILIAE
CIVIS·NOVAE·ROMAE





______________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24349 From: Petrus Domitianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: last Senatus voting
Salvete!

Where can i find last Senatus voting resoults ?
could sombody send me some link

Valete!

Petrus Domitianus A.L.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24350 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
Salve,

I am still, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that no one
is going to be forced to perform animal sacrifice and that it is up
to the discretion of the priest. Is this incorrect? Can we now be
compelled to perform such? Would anyone who refuses to do this
personally now be a blasphemer or, at least, not suitable for
religious office?
So if Newbius Nemo said publicly that they would never perform
animal sacrifice for whatever reason, they are automatically counted
out of potential religious office? If so, this is a very different
impression than of yore.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Traiano Valerio salutem dicit
>
> Fabia Vera was only a sacerdos for a few months before she was
removed. In just a short time since being appointed she refused to
accept the decretum of the Collegium Pontificum regarding the issue
of animal sacrifice. She additionally made a joke of an official
ceremony to Condordia were an animal (ie., chicken) was sacrificed.
This sort if irreverent behavior by priests of Nova Roma cannot, and
will not be tolerated.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Tribunus Plebis, Pontifex, Augur, and Flamen Pomonalis
>
> In a message dated 6/1/2004 1:11:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
genstraiana@y... writes:
>
> > It is my opinion that if she has preformed well to this point,
the punishment may have been too severe and they may have been other
corrective action that the CP could have taken to show their
displeasure and to make sure that any statments
> > like that are approved by the CP prior to being made public.
> >
> > Thank you for your time.
> >
> > Ita di deaque faxint!
> > Marcus Traianus Valerius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24351 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

It strikes me that at least some of the current controversy is
predicated on notions of what the Collegium Pontificum is and in what
relationship the Pontifex Maximus stands to the Collegium Pontificum. A
view of the Pontifex Maximus as a kind of polytheist pope has the ring
of medieval ultramontanism in it, which is understandable since that is
the direction the pontificate took after the collapse of the Western
Empire. Certainly even to the present the view of the Pontifex Maximus
in canon law continues to be one of a supreme judge beyond his curial
and episcopal colleagues. It is reasonable from the writings of the
emperor Iulian and Libanius of Antioch to infer that such a thing was at
least under consideration for late antique polytheism. However, this is
not how the Pontifex Maximus of the Roman Republic was viewed. The
Pontifex Maximus of the Roman Republic was primus inter pares, first
among equals, a leader to be sure, but only the person who presented the
official views of the Collegium Pontificum through the pontifices minor
to the public at large or in his own person to the Senate. The decision
making was entirely collegial and within the Collegium the Pontifex
Maximus carried the day only to the extent that he was able to persuade
his colleagues. The story of the Vestal Postumia in Livy says nothing
about the relationship of the Pontifex Maximus; it is rather about the
power of a paterfamilias. The Virgines Vestales were in manu Pontificis
Maximi -- they were completely under his control. In the republic a
paterfamilias could remove a minor or a woman he held in manu from the
jurisdiction of a court and treat the matter as one strictly within his
household. This is one of the reasons we see so few legal actions
against women recorded in the sources of the Republican era. The
Pontifex Maximus was choosing to remove to his personal jurisdiction the
Vestal in question. Historically priests of Magna Deorum Mater did not
stand in any such relationship to the Pontifex Maximus. They were
subordinate to the Collegium Pontificum through the Decemviri, not in
the manus of the Pontifex Maximus.

Similarly the notion that a trial is necessary for the removal of an
unfit priest comes primarily from canon law, not the practice of the
Roman Republic. Although the Pope has the authority under canon law to
remove any cleric, this power is traditionally exercised through a trial
before an ecclesiastical tribunal. That was not the case in Republican
Rome. Trials of Vestal Virgins for unchastity were conducted because
the chastity of Vestals was intimately connected to the well-being of
the state and because the penalty was capital. Neither of those
considerations apply here. It was Sp. Fabia Vera's own words spoken in
public on which the Collegium's decision was predicated. If her words
cannot be taken at face value, then what inference should we make other
than she says what she does not believe, and that would be far more
damning than taking her at her word. Even if this were a matter for
trial, what defence is there to one's own admissions? Furthermore, no
capital nor even civil penalty was assessed; the question was not one of
punishment, but rather of determining that the Collegium had made a
mistake in the original appointment. If there is blame to be assessed,
it is on the Collegium for making an error in the first place, and to
correct the error the Collegium has taken this measure and will
collectively perform a nundinum of piacula.

Finally, those who would establish an appeal to the Comitia Populi
Tributa should give careful consideration to the consequences. Such an
appeal from decisions of the Collegium in religious matters was not
envisioned by the founders precisely because, if they permitted
non-practitioners citizenship, appeal to the Comitia would involve
allowing those who have no fundamental commitment to the Religio to sit
in judgment of it. Such a situation would allow non-practitioners to
set the terms of the reconstruction of the Religio Romana, something
which many of them regard either with indifference or hostility. Under
such circumstances the very survival of the Religio is at the whim of
those who regard it as an opportunity to score political points, as has
been the case in much of the non-practitioner commentary on the recent
decretum, or those who would rather see it disappear to the sidelines or
altogether from Nova Roma. Any decision of the Collegium could be
overturned by those who have no fundamental commitment to it whatsoever.
Some may say this is ahistorical. It certainly is, for the Comitia
Populi Tributa of the Roman Republic had but a handful of
non-practitioners of the Religio not an overwhleming majority of them as
is the case today in Nova Roma. This ahistorical circumstances requires
an ahistorical response. The idea that individuals who practise the
very faith which destroyed the Religio in antiquity should have a say in
its reconstruction is an abomination to practitioners. Perhaps it would
have been best for the Religio to be within an organisation only for
practitoners, while Nova Roma became the Roman-enthusiasts club and
political role-playing game to which it constantly seems to be turning,
but that is not the way it was set up. And anyone who thinks that this
organisation can survive in anything like its current condition if the
Religio and its institutions are subjected to control by
non-practitioners is fantasising. If a priestess who cannot make up her
mind over whether or not Magna Deorum Mater should be worshipped in
Buddhist fashion and who mocks carimoniae of the Religio is worth
destroying this Nova Roma over, then have at it. You will be fought
every step of the way by practitioners of the Religio Romana. We shall
not cede the religion of the New Rome to those whose creed destroyed the
old.

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24352 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
G. Iulius Scaurus A. Octaviae Indagatrici salutem dicit.

Salve, A. Octavia.

At present, and for the foreseeable future, there is no requirement for
priests to perform animal sacrifices which they do not wish to do
themselves. However, it is possible that the Collegium in the future
will require blood sacrifice or that it will ban it entirely. Those who
apply for priesthoods should be aware of that and that they are
obligated to follow the direction of the Collegium in ritual practices
or leave the priesthood. It is the suggestion that an individual priest
can set her or himself up to decide what the standard practice of a cult
will be in perpetuity without the approval of the Collegium that is at
issue here.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24353 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: ante diem IV Nonae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Today is ante diem IV Nonae Iunii; the day is fastus.

Tomorrow is ante diem III Nonae Iunii and sacred to Bellona; the day is
comitialis. On this date in 296 BCE the temple of Bellona was voewd.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24354 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Salvete Quirites,

Petrus Domitianus <rabotnik@...> writes:

> Salvete!
>
> Where can i find last Senatus voting resoults ?

The results of the Senate vote which ended on 31 May will be posted here in
the mainlist by one of the Tribunes, probably later today. If you're
interested in Senate voting results from some other time, a search of the
list archives should reveal them. They are also posted to the Tabularium
section of the Nova Roma website.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24355 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: About the Oath of Office for provincial and local magistrates.
Salvete Quirites,

"H. Rutilius Bardulus" <gens_rutilia@...> writes:

> Salve, Corde.
>
> The Lex Cassia-Iunia de Iusiurando states that *any* elected
> magistrate or appointed official of Nova Roma must take publicly
> the Oath, in the major public forums.

We had a long discussion about this back in January of 2003, and the sense of
that discussion was that the oath is for elected magistrates and appointed
governors and those governors' legates. There is a separate oath for
apparaitors (assistants) which may be required by the magistrate who appoints
them.

While I have no objection to any local group magistrate posting the oath here,
I don't consider the oath a requirement for those local group magistrates.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24356 From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Salve dear Amice!

The Tribunes will soon publish a report on this list, but I think You
will be satisfied. ;-)

>Salvete!
>
>Where can i find last Senatus voting resoults ?
>could sombody send me some link
>
>Valete!
>
>Petrus Domitianus A.L.

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24357 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: About the Oath of Office for provincial and local magistrates.
Salvete omnes.

> We had a long discussion about this back in January of 2003, and
> the sense of that discussion was that the oath is for elected
> magistrates and appointed governors and those governors' legates.
> There is a separate oath for apparaitors (assistants) which may be
> required by the magistrate who appoints them.

[Bardulus] Ok, I missed that discussion. Pardon by the mess :-)

> While I have no objection to any local group magistrate posting
> the oath here, I don't consider the oath a requirement for those
> local group magistrates.

[Bardulus] From now on, the Oath of Office will be taken by our
local magistrates only in our provincial list. Thank you and Cordus
for your explanations.


Valete optime,

H·RVTILIVS·I·FIL·R·NEP·CLVST·TRIB·BARDVLVS
PATER·GENTIS·RVTILIAE
CIVIS·NOVAE·ROMAE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24358 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
G. Equitius Cato C. Minucio Hadriano Felix G. Iulio Scauro
quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salvete, omnes.

First, Pontifex Hadrianus, thank you for the post in which you
described the process by which you came to vote for the expulsion of
Fabia from the priesthood. I do not think that it was improper of me
to ask the College to do likewise; I in no way intended to change or
interfere in the process, but I do think it is any citizens' right to
ask its leaders how they came to do what they do. In Nova
Roma,unlike any nation outside of the fundamentalist Islamic
republics/theocracies of the Middle East, the religio is so much a
part of the State that any actions taken regarding the religio will,
by their very nature, have an impact on the State. We, as citizens,
both practioners and non-practitioners of the religio, therefore
have vested interest in matters of the religio as they are by
definition matters of State.

HOWEVER (cont'd. below):


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> It strikes me that at least some of the current controversy is
> predicated on notions of what the Collegium Pontificum is and in
what
> relationship the Pontifex Maximus stands to the Collegium
Pontificum. A
> view of the Pontifex Maximus as a kind of polytheist pope has the
ring
> of medieval ultramontanism in

CATO: Scaurus, I have not read a post yet in which the Pontifex
Maximus was asked, either directly or by inference, to excercize some
sort of "veto" power or other influence over his colleagues on the
College of Pontiffs. I'm not sure where the sidebar into the
ultramontanist heresy came from.


> Finally, those who would establish an appeal to the Comitia Populi
> Tributa should give careful consideration to the consequences.
>Such an > appeal from decisions of the Collegium in religious
>matters was not > envisioned by the founders precisely because, if
>they permitted > non-practitioners citizenship, appeal to the
>Comitia would involve > allowing those who have no fundamental
>commitment to the Religio to sit > in judgment of it.

CATO: No, Scaurus, it would be a matter of the citizens of the State
sitting in judgement of a *particular* and *unique* action of a body
which derives its authority from the State. The question here is
not, nor has it ever been (and I should know because I began this
whole topic) a question of the religio; it is a question of due
process under the law. For a citizen to be *denied* due process or a
mode of appeal under any circumstances, religious or otherwise (but
here specifically religious), smacks of tyranny and despotism. These
are the same kind of circumstances which led to the creation of the
Tribunes of the Plebs in Roma Antiqua. You do injustice to non-
practitioners if you pronounce that we (I include myself as a non-
practitioner) "have no fundamental commitment to the religio"; the
religio is the bedrock of the NR State, and as such, I have a great
deal of commitment to it as a citizen. It is not only religio
practitioners who are devoted to the State, and as I said the State
rests upon the foundation of the religio. As a *citizen* of NR, I
see the health of the religio as part and parcel of the health of the
State as a whole.


>Such a situation would allow non-practitioners to > set the terms of
>the reconstruction of the Religio Romana, something > which many of
>them regard either with indifference or hostility.



CATO: Scaurus, where is the indifference or hostility? Point out to
me a single post in which any citizen, practitioner or non-
practitioner, has defamed the religio, belittled it, or tried to
undermine it. Not specific practices, but the religio itself. No, I
say: it is the very importance of the religio that makes these
discussions occur.



>Under > such >circumstances the very survival of the Religio is at
the whim of > >those who regard it as an opportunity to score
political points, as >has > been the case in much of the non-
practitioner commentary on >the recent > decretum, or those who would
rather see it disappear to >the sidelines or > altogether from Nova
Roma. Any decision of the >Collegium could be > overturned by those
who have no fundamental >commitment to it whatsoever. > Some may say
this is ahistorical. >It certainly is, for the Comitia > Populi
Tributa of the Roman >Republic had but a handful of > non-
practitioners of the Religio not >an overwhleming majority of them as
> is the case today in Nova Roma. This ahistorical circumstances
>requires > an ahistorical response. The idea that individuals who
>practise the > very faith which destroyed the Religio in antiquity
>should have a say in > its reconstruction is an abomination to
>practitioners.


CATO: I cannot imagine that you would be describing non-Roman
paganism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Jainism, or
Animism. So it must be Christianity. You mention above that there
is "hostility" to the religio; I consider this remark blatant
hostility to Christianity.



Perhaps it would > have been best for the Religio to >be within an
organisation only for > practitoners, while Nova Roma >became the
Roman-enthusiasts club and > political role-playing game >to which it
constantly seems to be turning, > but that is not the >way it was set
up. And anyone who thinks that this > organisation >can survive in
anything like its current condition if the > Religio >and its
institutions are subjected to control by > non-practitioners >is
fantasising. If a priestess who cannot make up her > mind over
>whether or not Magna Deorum Mater should be worshipped in > Buddhist
>fashion and who mocks carimoniae of the Religio is worth >
>destroying this Nova Roma over, then have at it. You will be fought
> every step of the way by practitioners of the Religio Romana. We
>shall > not cede the religion of the New Rome to those whose creed
>destroyed the > old.



CATO: Unfortunately, Scaurus, the legal foundations of NR are set,
whether or not you like them. Just because you are a practitioner of
the religio does *not* mean that you have, under NR law and the
Constitution, any more rights or privileges than any other citizen.
That these legal foundations may or may not have any basis in the
legal system of Roma Antiqua is of no consequence whatsoever, nor is
the "intent" of the founders relevent without the actions of a
judicial court to interpret them. We must deal with the law and
Constitution *as they stand*, and must do so until such time as they
are abandoned or amended. Again, there is an hostility here,
pronounced against both non-practitioners (Christian or not) and
Christianity, that I think is unwarranted. In the macronational
world you may feel oppressed and vilified; do not assme the same
standards apply within NR, even from those of us who practice that
faith which flourished long before the corruption of the Empire
began. The old Rome survived until 1453 C.E., and was destroyed by
the Moslems. The collapse of the pagan Roman Empire was not the
result of Christianity (does anyone still actually believe this?),
but hundreds if not thousands of volumes have been written about
this. It is an ignoble and divisive issue to bring up.



>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus

valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24359 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit

I think Fabia Vera lost any support in the Collegium for "better solution" when she insinuated that the Collegium Pontificum was like the Taliban of Afghanistan. This comment alone is a serious offense, in my opinion, and she made no friends by doing so.

If Fabia Vera had taken my *private* advice to her on May 8th perhaps the situation would have been different. For some reason she seemed to think she was immune to being responsible for her behavior.

The other tribunes are working on the possibility of convening the comitia to let "the people" decide. I consider such a move unconstitutional, for the reasons stated previously by others, and will veto any attempt to convene the comitia. Surely, the other tribunes can veto my veto but so be it.

If the Collegium Pontificum is not allowed to police thier own, and if they are not allowed to judge who is acceptable to serve in the priesthood then why have a Collegium Pontificum? Fabia Vera was not elected to her priesthood, she was appointed by majority vote by the Collegium Pontificum. Likewise the Collegium Pontificum felt her selection as sacerdos was an error, and they corrected that error as is the right of the Collegium Pontificum.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 6/1/2004 6:30:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gawne@... writes:

> So in the end, if this question does go to the Comitia Populi Tributa as
> an exercise of Provocatio, I'm convinced it will produce a standoff at
> best and a Constitutional crisis at worst. Perhaps a better solution
> would be for the Tribunes to work with the Collegium Pontificum in the
> same way they worked with the Censors back in January,
> seeking a less
> confrontational means of resolving matters.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24360 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.P.D.

Salve Pontifex Modius.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius G. Equitio Marino salutem dicit
>
>
> If the Collegium Pontificum is not allowed to police thier own, and
if they are not allowed to judge who is acceptable to serve in the
priesthood then why have a Collegium Pontificum? Fabia Vera was not
elected to her priesthood, she was appointed by majority vote by the
Collegium Pontificum. Likewise the Collegium Pontificum felt her
selection as sacerdos was an error, and they corrected that error as
is the right of the Collegium Pontificum.



CATO: Modius, I think a crucial point is being misunderstood here.
The College has every right, without exception, to "police" itself.
In deciding that Fabia was no longer fit to be a priest in the
religio, it did so. Now, however, the citizens should have the right
to decide if they feel that the College acted correctly; and it
should be based on knowledge of the charges and of the defense with
which Fabia was represented. There *must* exist some check to
priestly power. This *IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE RELIGIO OR ITS POSITION
IN THE STATE* (not yelling, just trying to emphasize as much as
possible). This is *NOT AN ATTACK ON THE COLLEGE OF PONTIFFS OR ITS
RIGHT TO ACT* (see above). This is an attempt to ensure that the
College cannot simply pronounce judgement without there being *some*
recourse open to citizens; and if that recourse exists, that citizens
are enabled to use it. That the College cannot assume the powers
of judge, jury, and executioner, even within the realm of the
religio. Why? Because *everything* in NR is related to the religio
in some way or other, and when I see a combination of unlimited
priestly power and a disdain for the faith which I practice privately
as strong as (at least) one of our pontiffs', I become fearful.

To go to the absurd but logical extreme: who can say that some day,
the College of Pontiffs may not issue a decretum which requires *all*
citizens to practice the religio privately in order to remain
citizens? With enough sympathetic Tribunes, it could pass through
a "veto" war, and end up on the books. It may contradict the
Constitution, but we know that that is not necessarily a factor (as
seen recently), and so where would non-practitioners be left?
Without a voice or recourse? Is this the model of a State that we
want?

> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>

vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24361 From: Petrus Domitianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Salve!

Thank you for information :)

Vale!





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@t...>
wrote:
> Salve dear Amice!
>
> The Tribunes will soon publish a report on this list, but I think You
> will be satisfied. ;-)
>
> >Salvete!
> >
> >Where can i find last Senatus voting resoults ?
> >could sombody send me some link
> >
> >Valete!
> >
> >Petrus Domitianus A.L.
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Censor, Consularis et Senator
> Proconsul Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24362 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
Gaius Modius Athanasius Equitio Cato salutem dicit

According to this logic then EVERY action of the Collegium Pontificum should be subject to comitia (ie., popular) vote. What about those priesthood applications that were denied? Can a person who was refused the priesthood appeal to comitia? What about any decreta from the Collegium should it go to comitia to be ratified by the "people?"

The Collegium Pontificum has every right to remove a sacerdos, just as the Senate has every right to remove a propraetor.

Frankly, I am sick and tired of non-believers in the Religio trying to tell the Collegium how to operate OUR Religion. I have the utmost respect for my friends who are Christian within Nova Roma (my good friend Marcus Bianchius comes to mind, Propraetor of Lacus Magni), but I get very upset when people who do not believe in the Religio Romana attempt to dictate what is or is not right with the Religio. Plain and simple. Fabia Vera (BTW, she is NOT Fabia as she is not in gens Fabia she is in gens Fabia Vera) was removed because she was not suitable for the priesthood. Plain and simple, and the reasons have been illustrated here by all the pontifices. Even Marcus Cassius stated he didn't think she should be a sacerdos.

If someone cannot reconcile the existance of the Religio with their own personal belief in Religion (I believe this was the reason Po resigned as Praetor?) then perhaps Nova Roma is not right for them.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 6/2/2004 9:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlcinnyc@... writes:

> CATO: Modius, I think a crucial point is being misunderstood here.
> The College has every right, without exception, to "police" itself.
> In deciding that Fabia was no longer fit to be a priest in the
> religio, it did so. Now, however, the citizens should have the right
> to decide if they feel that the College acted correctly; and it
> should be based on knowledge of the charges and of the defense with
> which Fabia was represented. There *must* exist some check to
> priestly power. This *IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE RELIGIO OR ITS POSITION
> IN THE STATE* (not yelling, just trying to emphasize as much as
> possible). This is *NOT AN ATTACK ON THE COLLEGE OF PONTIFFS OR ITS
> RIGHT TO ACT* (see above). This is an attempt to ensure that the
> College cannot simply pronounce judgement without there being *some*
> recourse open to citizens; and if that recourse exists, that citizens
> are enabled to use it. That the College cannot assume the powers
> of judge, jury, and executioner, even within the realm of the
> religio. Why? Because *everything* in NR is related to the religio
> in some way or other, and when I see a combination of unlimited
> priestly power and a disdain for the faith which I practice privately
> as strong as (at least) one of our pontiffs', I become fearful.
>
> To go to the absurd but logical extreme: who can say that some day,
> the College of Pontiffs may not issue a decretum which requires *all*
> citizens to practice the religio privately in order to remain
> citizens? With enough sympathetic Tribunes, it could pass through
> a "veto" war, and end up on the books. It may contradict the
> Constitution, but we know that that is not necessarily a factor (as
> seen recently), and so where would non-practitioners be left?
> Without a voice or recourse? Is this the model of a State
> that we
> want?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24363 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: last Senatus voting
Salve Petrus Domitianus A. L.


They will be posted on the Main list today.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs
----- Original Message -----
From: Petrus Domitianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:24 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] last Senatus voting


Salvete!

Where can i find last Senatus voting resoults ?
could sombody send me some link

Valete!

Petrus Domitianus A.L.





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24364 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Abou the meaning of the "Punishment"
Salvete Illustris Pontefices et Omnes,
you're claiming since sunday that the Decretum religious about the
removal of Sp. Fabia Vera wasn't a punishemnt about her behaviours.
You're claiming today that the Decretum means that the CP was wrong
appointing Fabia Vera as priests.

However maybe you have not read well you text. In my personal
opinion you agree if you say something like: "Sp. Fabia Vera is
removed as priest Magnae Matris".

But you wrote "... judge her unfit to hold any position of religious
responsibility in the Religio Publica Romana IN PERPETUITY". You're
banning her FOR THE LIFE considering no redemption or possibility to
restore her Dignitas. This is more than an easly removal and more
than a punishment too.

Please, don't claim again that the Decretum wasn't a punishment.

P.S.: this comments are out from the tribunicial and religious
discussions about the Decrectum and they're quite personal.

Valete Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24365 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Decretum
A Priest may opt not to personally perform the Rituals involving
Animal Sacrifices, but by the same token, a Priest may not personally
ban others who are apointed at a later time from performing these
Rituals if they are an historic part of that Cultus.

The Priest has the descrition to make a personal choice on sacrifices,
not to make an ahistoric choice binding on future members of the Cult.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I am still, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that no one
> is going to be forced to perform animal sacrifice and that it is up
> to the discretion of the priest. Is this incorrect? Can we now be
> compelled to perform such? Would anyone who refuses to do this
> personally now be a blasphemer or, at least, not suitable for
> religious office?
> So if Newbius Nemo said publicly that they would never perform
> animal sacrifice for whatever reason, they are automatically counted
> out of potential religious office? If so, this is a very different
> impression than of yore.
>
> Vale,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Traiano Valerio salutem dicit
> >
> > Fabia Vera was only a sacerdos for a few months before she was
> removed. In just a short time since being appointed she refused to
> accept the decretum of the Collegium Pontificum regarding the issue
> of animal sacrifice. She additionally made a joke of an official
> ceremony to Condordia were an animal (ie., chicken) was sacrificed.
> This sort if irreverent behavior by priests of Nova Roma cannot, and
> will not be tolerated.
> >
> > Valete;
> >
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> > Tribunus Plebis, Pontifex, Augur, and Flamen Pomonalis
> >
> > In a message dated 6/1/2004 1:11:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> genstraiana@y... writes:
> >
> > > It is my opinion that if she has preformed well to this point,
> the punishment may have been too severe and they may have been other
> corrective action that the CP could have taken to show their
> displeasure and to make sure that any statments
> > > like that are approved by the CP prior to being made public.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your time.
> > >
> > > Ita di deaque faxint!
> > > Marcus Traianus Valerius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24366 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Salvete Quirites,

M Arminius Maior wrote:

> Mock Trial I
[...]
> Do you want to participate?

Oh sure.

> Both the reus and the actor are searching for advocates ...

What the heck, I'll offer to advocate for the reus, Dangerosus. Anyone
who can come up with an original insult (and really, has anyone ELSE
ever accused a citizen of having a hamster for a mother?) in the Nova
Roma list deserves a good defense.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24367 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
I thought this was pretty cut and dry, but I suppose that it is not.
I was in no way making an attack on Fabia Vera, but rather making a
statement. In my other posts regarding this issue I have stated being
relieved at her being removed. It really has nothing to do with her
as a person, but of the poor reflection her actions were causing. Her
concentration on Buddhism would to an observer who did not know her,
assume that she served Magna Mater second, and her practice in
Buddhism primarily. I do not know this is the case. I certainly can
not jump inside her brain and find out. However I feel that this
could have sent the wrong message to many who think on the spring of
the moment that it might be rather "nifty" to try and be a priest.
With little regard to the hard work that it would take, or any real
dedication to the deity. And what if they clammored and wailed about
until they got their way. What next? All the work that has been going
on to establish the identity of the Religio and reconstruct to the
best of our ability the methods of worshipping the gods would go to
waste. Other religions would easily probably get blended together
with the worship of the gods,a dn influence how the gods are
worshipped. This is what I was indicating when I said that multiple
faiths need to be kept seperate from each other. I would loathe to
see that happen in the priesthood of Diana, and I would certainly
loathe to see it happen in others as well. I was thrilled to come
across the Religio, and it is the primary reason that I joined NR. It
was not a rehashing of wicca which was not suitable for me
personally, rather it was a place and method that I could worship my
gods in an accurate fashion. I certainly do not wish to see any sort
of mockery becoming of it down the road.

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" <lucia_modia_lupa@y...>
wrote:
> I would agree that one could participate in two traditions if they
> were not clashing theoretically. However, in a situation when you
are
> primarily occupied with one set of beliefs (the one you are not
> serving publically as a priestess) then there is a problem in my
> opinion. It is a clash of interest to put one's god(dess) that they
> serve for the people second to another belief and philosphical
> outlook. If one is to serve two beliefs that do not oppose each
> other, I would think that it would be in good taste to at least
> devote oneself publically at least to that which benefits the
people
> concerned. Also it is my opinion that if you are going to practice
> two belief structures, then you should keep them completely
seperate
> and uninfluencing each other. It is poor taste to flaunt ones
> practice in a belief system that has nothing to do with the Religio
> or any other religious structures recognized by Nova Roma, when
they
> are supposed to be a sacerdos. But that is my opinion.
>
> However I do agree that what is of great importance is that the
> rituals are being done and done correctly. But how can one have
> confidence that this is happening when it is made quiet clear
> publically that the attention and focus of the sacerdos is
elsewhere?
>
> Lucia Modia Lupa
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Pat <p-mclaughlin@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> > There is a modern understanding that's leaked into this
> discussion. While
> > I will admit that I personally find a certain discontinuity
between
> what I
> > know of the Magna Mater cult and the common tenets of Buddhism,
I'm
> not an
> > expert on either. That said, I do not see anything that keeps
> someone from
> > embracing the Religio AND at the same time other religions that
do
> not
> > actively mandate an exclusivist position. Since the ancient
> perspective is
> > that it's orthopraxy that's important, not orthodoxy, it seems
that
> the
> > Gods would not require a certain belief of those responsible for
> the
> > practice of their cults.
> >
> > So long as the rites are performed scrupulously, then
> the 'contract'
> > between the people and the Gods is fulfilled. Think what you
will,
> but
> > perform the rites as prescribed.
> >
> > There is nothing in ancient religious Roman perspective that
keeps
> one from
> > adhering to one deity while honoring another. For that matter,
> since
> > Buddhism includes traditions which are (from a Western
perspective)
> more
> > schools of philosophy and behavior, and are not concerned with
the
> Gods,
> > there may be no contradiction at all... at least no more than
might
> have
> > existed for an adherent of one of the Greek philosophies when
> called on to
> > actively participate in the public religion.
> >
> > So, I see it as possible--but not a given--that one can honor two
> traditions.
> >
> > Valete,
> > M. Umbrius Ursus
> >
> > At 06:27 PM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
> > >From: "Samantha" <lucia_modia_lupa@y...>
> > >Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > >Though not addressed to me, I will offer my opinion as still a
> rather
> > >new citizen of Nova Roma of about 9 months. It hardly makes me
wish
> > >to leave Nova Roma. As a practioner, while I know nothing of the
> > >legal proceedings that should go on, I do feel better that she
is
> no
> > >longer sacerdos. I feel that it has been made rather abundantly
> clear
> > >that her devotion does not lie with Magna Mater in any manner
other
> > >then as an interest, her religious devotions rather being tied to
> > >Buddhism. Also I was rather shocked at the disrespect she showed
to
> > >the CP. I do not believe that the role of sacerdos is a game to
be
> > >picked up and set down whenever you so please to do so, and
should
> > >require a certain amount of devotion to a particular deity. In
fact
> > >if she had been permitted to continue to act as sacerdos I would
> have
> > >been weary as a new citizen of the seriousness of the Religio.
The
> > >actions of the sacerdos reflect on the cult, so I am not
dismayed
> in
> > >any manner with the decission of the CP.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24368 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato C. Minucio Hadriano Felix G. Iulio Scauro
> quiritibusque S.P.D.

SNIP

> >This ahistorical circumstances
> >requires > an ahistorical response. The idea that individuals who
> >practise the > very faith which destroyed the Religio in antiquity
> >should have a say in > its reconstruction is an abomination to
> >practitioners.
>
>
> CATO: I cannot imagine that you would be describing non-Roman
> paganism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Jainism, or
> Animism. So it must be Christianity. You mention above that there
> is "hostility" to the religio; I consider this remark blatant
> hostility to Christianity.

Pontifex Scauraus was simply stating a historic fact. It wasn't
Hindus, Bhuddists, or Muslams who outlawed the practice of the Religio
Romana in the Roman Empire, Desecrated it's temples, smashed it's Holy
Images, and burned the Sybiline books. That was a Christian Church
which was extremly hostile to the Religio Romana, along with all other
faiths, that did these things in an organized attempt to eradicate the
Worship of the Imortals from any place under it's sway.

This hostility has continued unabated among many Christians to this
very day. We can't help but notice things like when a Christian Leader
like Jerry Falwell blame us among others he claims his God hates for
the Terrorist attacks on the United States. I Don't think we have any
citizens that follow his sect's extremist views, but there are
millions of people who do, and that makes us wary of Christians
interviening in the affairs of the Religio Romana.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24369 From: Sp. Fabia Vera Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: An Apology
Salvete Quirites;

I wish formally to apologize to the Quirites and the Collegium
Ponteficium for the upset my joke has caused, I am heartily sorry and
sincerely had no idea of the ensuing uproar that would result.

I also request that the Collegium Pontificium find it in their
hearts to revoke their decree against me as our own Iulia Vopisca the
sacerdos Maxima (chief priestess) of Magna Mater has asked as well,
so we may continue her cultus to protect all Rome.

Finally I ask for the fair judgement of the Roman People, the
Quirites as was done in Ancient Rome and as Nova Roma Laws allow.


bene vale in pace deorum
Spuria Fabia Vera Fausta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24370 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Salvete Quirites,

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:

[...]
> This hostility has continued unabated among many Christians to this
> very day. We can't help but notice things like when a Christian Leader
> like Jerry Falwell blame us among others he claims his God hates for
> the Terrorist attacks on the United States. I Don't think we have any
> citizens that follow his sect's extremist views, but there are
> millions of people who do, and that makes us wary of Christians
> interviening in the affairs of the Religio Romana.

While it's good of Pontifex Drusus to acknowledge that he doesn't think
any members of Jerry Falwell's sect are citizens of Nova Roma, his
central theme is claiming that somehow the Christian citizens of Nova
Roma would, if given the chance, diminish the Religio here. This does a
grave disservice to our many good citizens who are Christian, and who
also are tolerant of and positive toward people of other non-Christian
religions.

I think that some people in the Religio just have a fundamental need to
feel persecuted. Not content with the privileged position that the
Religio already holds in NR, these people imagine a conspiracy of
Christian citizens where none exists.

The truth of the matter is that the Christian citizens of Nova Roma are
a far more tolerant and accepting lot than the vocal, hard core Religio
radicals who have been systematically taking over the leadership of the
Religio while denying involvement to anyone who doesn't agree with the
most extremely conservative of positions.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24371 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
Salvete Quirites,

Ever since the disappearance of Praetor Noricus, I have been acting "in
loco praetoris" on such occassions as it has seemed warranted by
circumstances. One of these matters I've been helping out with is the
moderation of the main list. As we all know, it's a busy list, and it's
a lot of work to moderate.

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, who was Praetor last year, has offered
to help out with the moderation tasks and I have accepted his offer of
help. He will be acting under the aegis of my Consular imperium while
he performs this task. As a Consular and a Senator of Nova Roma, I
don't think he needs any thing else to make him 'legit' for this task,
but I'll certainly consider any suggestions that anyone may have.

Once we have a replacement for Praetor Noricus in place and on the job,
both Palladius and I will relinquish moderator duties and hand them over
to the duely elected Praetor suffectus.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24372 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Salve,

Although it is already a point of agreement of the Constitution and the Mos Maiorum that putting the question into the hands of the Comitia is a answer to Fabia Vera´s needs and NR right procedures for keeping the Liberty of the citizens, problably I, as Tribune, am not desiring to use this ´ultima ratio tribunorum´.

Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of Fabia Vera on this list is suficiently prove she really wants to colaborate on the worshipp on her best hability.

FORGIVE HER!

And allow her again on her aras.

I´m certain you have plenty of capacity to right conduct her, and we are at disposal to witness any oaths of colaboration and civility again.

There is no sin of Religio ´unforgiven´ - And on the procedures of the ancient always had a ritual to making a purification if some mistake were comitted

Show you are like fathers, not vengeful men protected by a gray area not clear enough of the Constitution.

Be wise! Fabia Vera has already apologized.

I myself am losing my faith on the Religio Institutions, seeing the partisantism these questions are being handled.

Let´s be wise and mature.


Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis




---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24373 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Salve Consul Marine,

This is why I suggested and still suggest that non-religio
practitioners stay out of this debate. You know the old military
saying about perfect clarity in order giving, " If something can be
misunderstood, it will be misunderstood." Interference by non-
practitionersin this internal religio matter may well be regarded as
hostile so why fan the flames and reinforce their fears? That was my
initial concern and the way the conversations are evolving, I see a
possibility of my concerns becoming a reality.

I like Fabia Vera and have enjoyed many of her posts and appreciate
her efforts in NR whether others agree or not. I see she has some
support from religio practitioners but that is where the buck should
stop in my opinion. Again, interference by non-religio in this
particular affair will only make things worse; especially for her.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus













--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> [...]
> > This hostility has continued unabated among many Christians to
this
> > very day. We can't help but notice things like when a Christian
Leader
> > like Jerry Falwell blame us among others he claims his God hates
for
> > the Terrorist attacks on the United States. I Don't think we
have any
> > citizens that follow his sect's extremist views, but there are
> > millions of people who do, and that makes us wary of Christians
> > interviening in the affairs of the Religio Romana.
>
> While it's good of Pontifex Drusus to acknowledge that he doesn't
think
> any members of Jerry Falwell's sect are citizens of Nova Roma, his
> central theme is claiming that somehow the Christian citizens of
Nova
> Roma would, if given the chance, diminish the Religio here. This
does a
> grave disservice to our many good citizens who are Christian, and
who
> also are tolerant of and positive toward people of other non-
Christian
> religions.
>
> I think that some people in the Religio just have a fundamental
need to
> feel persecuted. Not content with the privileged position that
the
> Religio already holds in NR, these people imagine a conspiracy of
> Christian citizens where none exists.
>
> The truth of the matter is that the Christian citizens of Nova
Roma are
> a far more tolerant and accepting lot than the vocal, hard core
Religio
> radicals who have been systematically taking over the leadership
of the
> Religio while denying involvement to anyone who doesn't agree with
the
> most extremely conservative of positions.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24374 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Re Comments to Consul Equitius: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fa
Salvete Quirites, et salve Pompeia,

pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:

> ...but if you look
> at Fabia Vera's posts, many of them cite disgruntlement with a lack of
> trial proceedings,

Yes, I understand that. It is indeed that lack of due process which I
consider a basis for justifying her claim to Provocatio in this matter,
despite the extra-constitutional nature of such a claim.

[concerning the Comitia Populi Tributa]
> Although, they cannot force the Collegium's hand in this
> case, only recommend things, I guess, they can certainly declare that
> their treatment of this situation is not appropriate and that they
> should work as soon as possible on a conduct code of Pontifices, and
> conditions under which one can be dismissed from their religio
> position, and the exact mechanics by which this will transpire.

Indeed the Comitia Populi Tributa can ask for all of these things.
While they're at it they can ask for a pony. Given the attitude
demonstrated by the majority of the Pontifices toward the wishes of the
Populace, I doubt any such request would be granted.

> The key issue here, honoured Consul, is that we must all follow the
> very law which gives us our authority in the first place, the document
> which is primus in proper process, the constitution,

I agree Pompeia. But our Constitution has placed us in an awkward
position. The Constitution renders the Collegium Pontificum free of
constraint by the Senate or the Comitia. Only the Tribunes may impose
any constraint, and that must happen within 72 hours.


>>...I'm convinced it will produce a standoff at
>>best and a Constitutional crisis at worst. Perhaps a better solution
>>would be for the Tribunes to work with the Collegium Pontificum in the
>>same way they worked with the Censors back in January, seeking a less
>>confrontational means of resolving matters.
>>
>
> Pompeia: I respectfully disagree. There is nothing wrong with the
> populace declaring that it is unacceptable for the Collegium to
> conduct its dismissals with variance from voted and established
> proceedings lawfully mandated...with comcommittant denial of rights.
> Indeed, they are in authority, but they are equally accountable for same.

Accountable to whom? Our Constitution frees them from any such
accountability even as it guarantees their privileged status. The very
People they pray for may not require any particular limits on their
actions. As wrong, as unballanced, as that may seem it is still the
simple fact of our written Constitutional law.

Vale Pompeia, et valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24375 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Results of the Plebiscitum
L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis, ex officio,

Citizens of Nova Roma, for me is a pleasure announce we have a new Plebeian Aedile.

L. Suetonius Nerva was elected to fill the vacancy of the Plebeian Aedilship, and will join excellent E. Curia Finnica on this so ancient and traditional magistrature.

I urge to Plebeian Aedile L. Suetonius Nerva take the oath as soon as possible and start its magistrature, by the blessings of Ceres our patroness.

Bellow you can see the results sent me of excellent rogator A. Apolonius Cordus.

"
Here are the results in the comitia plebis:

Before tie-resolution:

ASM 7 tribes
LSN 14 tribes
AMA 1 tribe

After tie-resolution:

ASM 7 tribes
LSN 18 tribes
AMA 1 tribe

Suetonius Nerva wins.
(Agrippina Modia Aurelia was a write-in)."



May L. Suetonius Nerva help our citizens to more and more bring Nova Roma closer to its objectives.

L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis
"








---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24376 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
G. Equitius Cato Q. Lanio Paulino S.P.D.

Salve, Lanias.

With all due respect, one point I have been trying to make,
repeatedly, is that since in Nova Roma the religio is tied into the
State in a way that makes decisions regarding one inseparable from
them affecting the other, it *is* the right of any and all citizens
who are concerned about legal proceedings to question, discuss, and
voice opinion. Not only is it a right, as a citizen, it is a *duty*.

In Pastor Niemoeller's words: "First they came for the Communists,
but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then they came for the
Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did nothing.
Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade
unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew - so I
did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left who
could stand up for me."

vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Consul Marine,
>
> This is why I suggested and still suggest that non-religio
> practitioners stay out of this debate. You know the old military
> saying about perfect clarity in order giving, " If something can be
> misunderstood, it will be misunderstood." Interference by non-
> practitionersin this internal religio matter may well be regarded
as
> hostile so why fan the flames and reinforce their fears? That was
my
> initial concern and the way the conversations are evolving, I see a
> possibility of my concerns becoming a reality.
>
> I like Fabia Vera and have enjoyed many of her posts and appreciate
> her efforts in NR whether others agree or not. I see she has some
> support from religio practitioners but that is where the buck
should
> stop in my opinion. Again, interference by non-religio in this
> particular affair will only make things worse; especially for her.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> > > This hostility has continued unabated among many Christians to
> this
> > > very day. We can't help but notice things like when a Christian
> Leader
> > > like Jerry Falwell blame us among others he claims his God
hates
> for
> > > the Terrorist attacks on the United States. I Don't think we
> have any
> > > citizens that follow his sect's extremist views, but there are
> > > millions of people who do, and that makes us wary of Christians
> > > interviening in the affairs of the Religio Romana.
> >
> > While it's good of Pontifex Drusus to acknowledge that he doesn't
> think
> > any members of Jerry Falwell's sect are citizens of Nova Roma,
his
> > central theme is claiming that somehow the Christian citizens of
> Nova
> > Roma would, if given the chance, diminish the Religio here. This
> does a
> > grave disservice to our many good citizens who are Christian, and
> who
> > also are tolerant of and positive toward people of other non-
> Christian
> > religions.
> >
> > I think that some people in the Religio just have a fundamental
> need to
> > feel persecuted. Not content with the privileged position that
> the
> > Religio already holds in NR, these people imagine a conspiracy of
> > Christian citizens where none exists.
> >
> > The truth of the matter is that the Christian citizens of Nova
> Roma are
> > a far more tolerant and accepting lot than the vocal, hard core
> Religio
> > radicals who have been systematically taking over the leadership
> of the
> > Religio while denying involvement to anyone who doesn't agree
with
> the
> > most extremely conservative of positions.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24377 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
---
Salvete Modius Tribunus, Sacerdos, Pontifex....et Omnes:

Modius, did I 'hear' my name mentioned in this conversation? Alas,
yes I did...

I gather you would like my take on this thread Modi?
Well, 'ok', if you absolutely 'insist'...
My comments below...


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Equitio Cato salutem dicit
>
> According to this logic then EVERY action of the Collegium
Pontificum should be subject to comitia (ie., popular) vote. What
about those priesthood applications that were denied? Can a person
who was refused the priesthood appeal to comitia? What about any
decreta from the Collegium should it go to comitia to be ratified by
the "people?"

Pompeia: Nooooo, noooo Modius...the Collegium is subject to the
constitution of NR, and leges pursuant to that constitution; so when
its members are not granted the rights by the Collegium, that are in
the constitution, the Collegium is in misapplication of its authority,
even as the Republic's religious authority..'religious' authority. I
am sorry, my dear, you are 'not' above the law. As pious a man as you
are, you are not above the law...nobody is...that is the essence of a
republic, with the Religio being the State Religion, and moreover, the
belief which permeates all aspects of the Roman culture. I think it
must be difficult to be a Tribune and a member of the Collegium
nowadays, and I mean this with sincerity.

Modius...your priesthood is granted by the Collegium, under the
authority given to this body by the constitution...it is indeed a
'privilege' and not a 'right' to become a Priest. I won't digress on
that aspect. Your 'removal', has to be done with equal attention to
the Constitution. When actions of the Collegium defy a trial in
declaring someone nefas in perpetuum (essentially what you are doing
with Fabia Vera), she is entitled to seek council and appeal in this
case..please read the constitution under rights...'your' rights too,
Modius.

The collegium 'may' issue Religious Decreta...they 'may not' stop
someone from appealing their decision, when said decreta conflicts
with rights they would receive if they were not a member of the Collegium.
Perhaps in the future, it would be best to warn future members that
they are waiving their rights under the constitution with respect to
fair process and/or option of trial, 'before' they accept a Priesthood?:)
Or better still, perhaps the Collegium could take a look at their
procedures, and make sure they align with Constitutional rights
extended to citizens, secular, religious, 'unbeliever', whatever.

Based on the Collegium's recent ruling, one must conclude that an
'unbeliever' has it 'made in the shade' with all the rights in the
world, and a practitioner/priestess makes one mistake and she is
tossed out without recourse?

Moreover the constitution grants the right of a person to seek council
and advice in matters of religious and social dispute...please reread
this area, with respect.
>
> The Collegium Pontificum has every right to remove a sacerdos, just
as the Senate has every right to remove a propraetor.

Pompeia: Ahh, but there is a Senatus Consultum about criteria for
Governor selection, and a Senatus Consultum for Senator removal... and
generally they don't vote in governors who are unsuitable by their
preestablished criteria. At any rate, a governorship is never
guaranteed for life, neither legatusship, nor elected office...it is
limited, and is subject to termination. Such persons expect the
possiblity of not being prorogued, reappointed, re-elected etc...

We are talking a Priesthood/Sarcedotal appointment...this, as I am
sure you can attest to Modius, is not assumed to be a limited time
thing...such carries alot of spiritual and emotional conviction, the
investment of time given to others and to ritual, money out of one's
pocket, and the like...

I cannot believe that posters within the Collegium are now saying that
it is just the removal of a job, like a clerk at 7/11...they are
trivializing and undermining positions held in the very Religion we
are supposed to be revering. I cannot believe what I am hearing when
persons say 'oh, what punishment'? And, well, she was never suitable
in the first place, etc. Would you, Modi, like to be treated in this
fashion? I don't think so, and I would not like you to be treated in
this fashion either, to be declared unfit for religious duty for life,
without recourse, without option of trial, advocacy as requested...and
to boot, judges who have demonstrated via verbage on the ML, prior to
all of this, that, they couldn't possibly be objective in this
case..... Tribune?
>
> Frankly, I am sick and tired of non-believers in the Religio trying
to tell the Collegium how to operate OUR Religion. I have the utmost
respect for my friends who are Christian within Nova Roma (my good
friend Marcus Bianchius comes to mind, Propraetor of Lacus Magni), but
I get very upset when people who do not believe in the Religio Romana
attempt to dictate what is or is not right with the Religio.

Pompeia: Oh, Modi...regarding your last line...'dictating' what 'is'
and 'is not' right with the Religio? And where, did I do that? Where
are my posts her on the ML, or to the Collegium Lists on how to do it
better...

What does Marcus Bianchus, myself or any other person, practitioner or
no, have anything to do with this...?

Because the Collegium has acted in a manner to which its actions are
in vex with the constitution and an appeal in launched, this is
'dictating
what is and is not right in the Religio'......really???

Modi!!!?????




Plain and simple. Fabia Vera (BTW, she is NOT Fabia as she is not
in gens Fabia she is in gens Fabia Vera) was removed because she was
not suitable for the priesthood. Plain and simple, and the reasons
have been illustrated here by all the pontifices. Even Marcus Cassius
stated he didn't think she should be a sacerdos.

Pompeia: Marcus Cassius in his statement to the ML outlining his
vote, did not agree with the Collegium's collective actions
either...but he did say this about Fabia Vera, implying that she was
perhaps not 'cut out' for the job perhaps, but he didn't vote to
dismiss her from the Collegium forever....for the reasons given in the
initial statement of removal of Fabia Vera, issued collectively by the
Collegium.


>
> If someone cannot reconcile the existance of the Religio with their
own personal belief in Religion (I believe this was the reason Po
resigned as Praetor?) then perhaps Nova Roma is not right for them.

Pompeia: You are dreaming, I am afraid Modius. Read the constitution
please. One of your collegiate members issued a statement in April,
about Practitioners who could not recognize their vegetarianisms with
the Religio Practices of animal sacrifice, stating that they might
want to more or less reevaluate their position in Nova Roma. but...the
welcome wagon has been rolled out, since 1999, and if it is to your
displeasure, I am sorry...but I do not think that a mass exodus of
persons, either practitioner or nonpractitioner whom you, or other
priests deem 'unsuitable' is going to happen in the near future.

Who, may I ask with respect, has difficulty coping with the existance
of 'whom'?

Interestingly enough, when you look at the mass resignation of ie
March 15, 2001, you will find that most of these people were
Practitioners...no, they didn't resign over religion, Christians,
sacrifices, anything like that...it was over disputes with certain
convervative policies conflicting with their own (as I understand the
politics of it)...these people STILL practise the Religio...Modius,
these people were flamens, one Pontifex (who left shortly before the
collective resignation of March 15, 2001) and practitioners who were
laypersons, some in political office.

NONE of those people cited Christianity, 'unbelievers' as being a
force in their decision to leave.

One of the resigned Pontifices has her own licensed church in S.
California...not to dig at the Collegium or cause offence in any
way...I do not know all that happened, just that the split happened.
This had nothing to do with nonpractitioners, unbelievers vs.
Religios...it was within the Collegium, so religious disputes within
the realm of Religio practise probably had more to do with it.

She is quite a nice person. I heard from her in private
memo...fighting within and over the Religio is something she does not
advocate, nor disrespect of others' beliefs....I don't think she would
mind my saying this.



We lose people for various reasons, and I can remember people
resigning who publicly stated, more or less, they felt bullied..but
such a roster cannot accurately be attributed to disgruntled
Christians. Some of the people in other groups where the religio is
pactised used to be citizens, but somehow, they found in necessary to
practise elsewhere.



I 'don't think this has a whole bunch to do with the root issue we
are dealing with, but yes, I resigned (not a newsflash anymore...most
people know this) ...I took magisterial and constitutional offence to
not being able as Praetor to defend Christians, Wiccans, and to a
lesser extent Religio Priests from having their faith berated by a
troll on a hate-mission, when the guidelines stated otherwise, and the
constitution lent itself to declaring this person's behaviour
inappropriate. You don't have all the facts on that one, and I am not
going to give them to you. Suffice it to say, that some people will
do absolutely 'anything', 'anything', even have their own Religion
berated, to get elected...Hopefully, neither you, nor I will 'want'
anything that badly....Your attempts to suggest I resigned because I
can't reconcile my faith with that of others, is rather muddled. The
religio has nothing to do with religious biggotry, which was the
problem at the time...something, I know...you hate and don't want to
talk about. And what does all this have to do with the recent actions
of the Collegium 'anyway'.....??????

Lastly Modius...Justice is irrespective of persons...you are adding
religious elements to this situation where none need exist...this is
about the rights of a citizen...a practitioner at that. This makes it
my business, regardless of what you think of me personally...I am a
citizen, who believes in equal rights for all people, and believes
that the Religio should be the state religion,but that all groups and
persons are umbrellaed under the Constitution, the source of our
authority and rights.

Vale,
Po


>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 6/2/2004 9:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> > CATO: Modius, I think a crucial point is being misunderstood here.
> > The College has every right, without exception, to "police" itself.
> > In deciding that Fabia was no longer fit to be a priest in the
> > religio, it did so. Now, however, the citizens should have the right
> > to decide if they feel that the College acted correctly; and it
> > should be based on knowledge of the charges and of the defense with
> > which Fabia was represented. There *must* exist some check to
> > priestly power. This *IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE RELIGIO OR ITS POSITION
> > IN THE STATE* (not yelling, just trying to emphasize as much as
> > possible). This is *NOT AN ATTACK ON THE COLLEGE OF PONTIFFS OR ITS
> > RIGHT TO ACT* (see above). This is an attempt to ensure that the
> > College cannot simply pronounce judgement without there being *some*
> > recourse open to citizens; and if that recourse exists, that citizens
> > are enabled to use it. That the College cannot assume the powers
> > of judge, jury, and executioner, even within the realm of the
> > religio. Why? Because *everything* in NR is related to the religio
> > in some way or other, and when I see a combination of unlimited
> > priestly power and a disdain for the faith which I practice privately
> > as strong as (at least) one of our pontiffs', I become fearful.
> >
> > To go to the absurd but logical extreme: who can say that some day,
> > the College of Pontiffs may not issue a decretum which requires *all*
> > citizens to practice the religio privately in order to remain
> > citizens? With enough sympathetic Tribunes, it could pass through
> > a "veto" war, and end up on the books. It may contradict the
> > Constitution, but we know that that is not necessarily a factor (as
> > seen recently), and so where would non-practitioners be left?
> > Without a voice or recourse? Is this the model of a State
> > that we
> > want?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24378 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Voting Results, Comitia Populi Tributa
Salvete Quirites,

The Rogators have tabulated your votes, and reported the results to me
and Tribune Faustus. Tribune Faustus will report the results of the
election for Plebian Aedile in the Comitia Plebi Tributa. Find below
the results of the voting in the Comitia Populi Tributa.

In the election for Quaestor, Lucius Iulius Sulla has won, prevailing in
the first round with 19 of 33 voting tribes. Congratulations to Lucius
Iulius Sulla, and the thanks of the Republic to all who stood for this
office.

All leges presented to the Comitia have been passed. The breakdown of
the votes, by tribes, may be seen below.

LECLE: yes 30, no 3, abstentions 2, law is passed.
LAOAP: yes 25, no 7, abstentions 3, law is passed.
LAS: yes 26, no 7, abstentions 2, law is passed.
LACH: yes 24, no 9, abstentions 2, law is passed.
LACPT: yes 21, no 10, abstentions 4, law is passed.
LAMP: yes 25, no 7, abstentions 3, law is passed.

Therefore, the following six leges are now in force:

1. LEX EQVITIA DE CORRIGENDIS LEGVM ERRATIS
2. LEX ARMINIA DE OFFICIIS AEDILIUM PLEBIS
3. LEX ARMINIA SENATORIA
4. LEX ARMINIA DE CURSO HONORUM
5. LEX ARMINIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM
6. LEX ARMINIA DE MINISTRIS PROVINCIALIBUS

My thanks to all who voted. It is your participation in our Republic
which makes us strong.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24379 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A respectul question to pontifex L. Sicinius Drusus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat" <p-mclaughlin@...>

That said, I do not see anything that keeps someone from
> embracing the Religio AND at the same time other religions that do not
> actively mandate an exclusivist position. Since the ancient perspective
is
> that it's orthopraxy that's important, not orthodoxy, it seems that the
> Gods would not require a certain belief of those responsible for the
> practice of their cults.

But surely if someone says that a sacrifice, a ritual which has shown to
be pleasing to to the Gods will, not only not be performed by them but will
NEVER be practiced, then how can you say that from the perspective of
orthopraxy, that person is fit to publicly serve the Gods.

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24380 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
<Sigh>

Jumping up and down and crying "legal proceedings" isn't going to
magicly transform this into one. This was a personal deceision, not a
legal procedure. We haven't bought any criminal or civil cahrages
against Fabia Vera, we have simply dismissed someone whom we found
unsuited to the job.

In the Time I have been in Nova Roma I have seen Propraetors dismiss
Legates and scribes. I Have seen a Consul dismiss an Accesus. I have
seen the Senate refuse to proriuge a propraetor who desired to retain
her postion. There were no outragous demands over these matters, they
were all considered personal choices by the people who made them.

That is all this matter is, a personel choice. It's not in any way
different than any other dismissial from an apointed office that has
ever occured in Nova Roma.

That hasn't stopped some people from using it as a weapon against the
Religio Romana, or as a means of carrying out old vendettas against
the Pontifices.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Q. Lanio Paulino S.P.D.
>
> Salve, Lanias.
>
> With all due respect, one point I have been trying to make,
> repeatedly, is that since in Nova Roma the religio is tied into the
> State in a way that makes decisions regarding one inseparable from
> them affecting the other, it *is* the right of any and all citizens
> who are concerned about legal proceedings to question, discuss, and
> voice opinion. Not only is it a right, as a citizen, it is a *duty*.
>
> In Pastor Niemoeller's words: "First they came for the Communists,
> but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then they came for the
> Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did nothing.
> Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade
> unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew - so I
> did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left who
> could stand up for me."
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve Consul Marine,
> >
> > This is why I suggested and still suggest that non-religio
> > practitioners stay out of this debate. You know the old military
> > saying about perfect clarity in order giving, " If something can be
> > misunderstood, it will be misunderstood." Interference by non-
> > practitionersin this internal religio matter may well be regarded
> as
> > hostile so why fan the flames and reinforce their fears? That was
> my
> > initial concern and the way the conversations are evolving, I see a
> > possibility of my concerns becoming a reality.
> >
> > I like Fabia Vera and have enjoyed many of her posts and appreciate
> > her efforts in NR whether others agree or not. I see she has some
> > support from religio practitioners but that is where the buck
> should
> > stop in my opinion. Again, interference by non-religio in this
> > particular affair will only make things worse; especially for her.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> > <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Quirites,
> > >
> > > Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > > > This hostility has continued unabated among many Christians to
> > this
> > > > very day. We can't help but notice things like when a Christian
> > Leader
> > > > like Jerry Falwell blame us among others he claims his God
> hates
> > for
> > > > the Terrorist attacks on the United States. I Don't think we
> > have any
> > > > citizens that follow his sect's extremist views, but there are
> > > > millions of people who do, and that makes us wary of Christians
> > > > interviening in the affairs of the Religio Romana.
> > >
> > > While it's good of Pontifex Drusus to acknowledge that he doesn't
> > think
> > > any members of Jerry Falwell's sect are citizens of Nova Roma,
> his
> > > central theme is claiming that somehow the Christian citizens of
> > Nova
> > > Roma would, if given the chance, diminish the Religio here. This
> > does a
> > > grave disservice to our many good citizens who are Christian, and
> > who
> > > also are tolerant of and positive toward people of other non-
> > Christian
> > > religions.
> > >
> > > I think that some people in the Religio just have a fundamental
> > need to
> > > feel persecuted. Not content with the privileged position that
> > the
> > > Religio already holds in NR, these people imagine a conspiracy of
> > > Christian citizens where none exists.
> > >
> > > The truth of the matter is that the Christian citizens of Nova
> > Roma are
> > > a far more tolerant and accepting lot than the vocal, hard core
> > Religio
> > > radicals who have been systematically taking over the leadership
> > of the
> > > Religio while denying involvement to anyone who doesn't agree
> with
> > the
> > > most extremely conservative of positions.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24381 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Voting Results, Comitia Populi Tributa
Salvete Omnes,

My congratualtions to our new Quaestor and Aedile and to Tribune
Faustus on the passage of his legislation.

Valete,

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24382 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Results of the Plebiscitum
Salve Suetonius Nerva,
as one of the rapresentants of the Plebeians, I'll send you my
sincere congratulations for your election. I wish you good luck
being sure you'll do a good job.

Vale
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
------------------------------
NOVA ROMA
------------------------------
Senator
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Italiae - http://italia.novaroma.org
Pater Familiae Gens Apula - http://italia.novaroma.org/apula/
Dominus Factionis Russatae - http://aediles.novaroma.org/russata/
Vicarius Academiae Italicae -
http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica/
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis, ex officio,
>
> Citizens of Nova Roma, for me is a pleasure announce we have a new
Plebeian Aedile.
>
> L. Suetonius Nerva was elected to fill the vacancy of the Plebeian
Aedilship, and will join excellent E. Curia Finnica on this so
ancient and traditional magistrature.
>
> I urge to Plebeian Aedile L. Suetonius Nerva take the oath as soon
as possible and start its magistrature, by the blessings of Ceres
our patroness.
>
> Bellow you can see the results sent me of excellent rogator A.
Apolonius Cordus.
>
> "
> Here are the results in the comitia plebis:
>
> Before tie-resolution:
>
> ASM 7 tribes
> LSN 14 tribes
> AMA 1 tribe
>
> After tie-resolution:
>
> ASM 7 tribes
> LSN 18 tribes
> AMA 1 tribe
>
> Suetonius Nerva wins.
> (Agrippina Modia Aurelia was a write-in)."
>
>
>
> May L. Suetonius Nerva help our citizens to more and more bring
Nova Roma closer to its objectives.
>
> L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus Plebis
> "
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail - Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail.
Clique aqui!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24383 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Catholics and this issue
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:

The truth of the matter is that the Christian citizens of Nova Roma are
a far more tolerant (MBA: Have you been reading some of the posts from the Christians?)and accepting lot than the vocal, hard core Religio
radicals who have been systematically taking over the leadership of the
Religio while denying involvement to anyone who doesn't agree with the
most extremely conservative of positions.

Valete,

-- Marinus


Talk about a backhanded slap to the CP. I think you might be out of line though....I have not seen this hardline conservative CP in Nova Roma. I see a rather moderate CP which tolerates quite a bit. They are trying to follow an ancient Roman model but with allowances for modern ideas as long as they do not threaten the core values and basis of the Religio.

But I must confess I am not super knowledgeable about the Religio, just what I have learned over the years I have been in Nova Roma.

I have seen quite a bit of tit for tat here, why we can't just state our objections or agreement with the decision of Vera and then let the Tribunes decided if they can do something is beyond me. As a Catholic on the outside looking in, I would suggest the CP listen to what non practitioners have to say as they may tend to be less emotional (well except here) and biased and perhaps have a good point or two that could help make the religio a better organization.

NOTE: The big annoyance I have with some of the Catholics in this current situation, is that they say their bit but then will NOT shut up. Hell, tell what you think and hope that you make some sense and that maybe something sticks, but then let it go....don't drone on and on and on and on....I think we are beyond changing people minds about this issue.

Vale,



Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
Paterfamilias, gens Bianchia
Quaestor, Nova Roma

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24384 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Agreements, not laws!
Salve,

As the same way Furius Camillus conquered the city of the Faliscans
by piety and softness, I think the Fabia Vera stuff can be reached
peace throught a compromise, not force.

An agreement between the Collegium Pontificium and Sp. Fabia Vera
have all my support.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24385 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.

Salve.

Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:

>Salve,
>
>Although it is already a point of agreement of the Constitution and the Mos Maiorum that putting the question into the hands of the Comitia is a answer to Fabia Vera´s needs and NR right procedures for keeping the Liberty of the citizens, problably I, as Tribune, am not desiring to use this ´ultima ratio tribunorum´.
>
>Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of Fabia Vera on this list is suficiently prove she really wants to colaborate on the worshipp on her best hability.
>
>FORGIVE HER!
>
>
It is not a matter of forgiving her (at least for me). I voted to remove
Fabia Vera because I felt her religious views were incompatable with the
Collegium Pontifficum's understanding of the State Religio. Not becuase
of some e-mailed comment or faux pas. Am I supposed to forgive her
views? That's ridiculous. Her religious views are her own, and don't
require forgiveness by me or anyone else. I'd personally be insulted if
someone said "It's ok Hadrianus, I forgive you for beleiving in all that
silly stuff". That does not change the fact that I feel her views are
*not* compatable with the State Religio.

>
>And allow her again on her aras.
>
>I´m certain you have plenty of capacity to right conduct her, and we are at disposal to witness any oaths of colaboration and civility again.
>
>There is no sin of Religio ´unforgiven´ - And on the procedures of the ancient always had a ritual to making a purification if some mistake were comitted
>
>Show you are like fathers, not vengeful men protected by a gray area not clear enough of the Constitution.
>
>Be wise! Fabia Vera has already apologized.
>
>I myself am losing my faith on the Religio Institutions, seeing the partisantism these questions are being handled.
>
>
>
I don't see this as "partisanship". Under the Constituion the Collegium
Pontificum has the *sole* right to determine the conduct of the State
Religio. We felt that Fabia Vera could not do the job to our
sastisfaction, so we removed her.

>Let´s be wise and mature.
>
>
>Vale bene in pacem deorum,
>L. Arminius Faustus
>Tribunus Plebis
>
>
Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24386 From: Agrippina Modia Aurelia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Results of the Plebiscitum
Salvete,

> Suetonius Nerva wins.
> (Agrippina Modia Aurelia was a write-in)."

LOL! I'm assuming the individual who made me a 'write-in' candidate
was none other than my honorable paterfamilias Gaius Modius
Athanasius - you putz. I would have turned it down even if I had
won. :P

Congratulations L. Suetonius Nerva!

Valete,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24387 From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
Salve Cato,

I understand your point about how are state is tied into the religion
and if laws were to come up saying only religio members could hold
offices, be citizens etc. then it would be our business and we'd
have much to say on the matter. As pointed out before, this whole
situation is an internal matter where someone in the college of
priests got skidded. Many non -practitioners are not familiar with
what sort of things are good, bad or what even offends the gods. All
of the rituals preformed by Scaurus over the last year are totally
new to many citizens and even if some of us wanted to, we could not
make an intelligent or informed comment about the interior affairs
of the religio.

Actually, I like the verse below which was quite popular in the
early 60's when I was a kid. With respect, an organization's
decision to remove a person is not a persecution. Also, going back
to my main point about not coming down or intefering with the
religio's internal affairs as an outsider, I see the verse in this
way: Because the religio is new, trying to revive herself in a more
or less Judeo- Christian dominated world, I am sure that we can see
a converse argument to the verse - that is, the religio
practitioners may well regard intefering non-practitioners as a
threat to their college and precieve us as, "They" mentioned in the
verse below. That is where we must be very careful and considerate
and understand why the practitioners fefuse to be silent also.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus










> In Pastor Niemoeller's words: "First they came for the
Communists,
> > but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then they came
for the
> > Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did
nothing.
> > Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade
> > unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew -
so I
> > did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left
who
> > could stand up for me."
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus
(Michael
> > Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > > Salve Consul Marine,
> > >
> > > This is why I suggested and still suggest that non-religio
> > > practitioners stay out of this debate. You know the old
military
> > > saying about perfect clarity in order giving, " If something
can be
> > > misunderstood, it will be misunderstood." Interference by non-
> > > practitionersin this internal religio matter may well be
regarded
> > as
> > > hostile so why fan the flames and reinforce their fears? That
was
> > my
> > > initial concern and the way the conversations are evolving, I
see a
> > > possibility of my concerns becoming a reality.
> > >
> > > I like Fabia Vera and have enjoyed many of her posts and
appreciate
> > > her efforts in NR whether others agree or not. I see she has
some
> > > support from religio practitioners but that is where the buck
> > should
> > > stop in my opinion. Again, interference by non-religio in this
> > > particular affair will only make things worse; especially for
her.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> > > <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > > > Salvete Quirites,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > > This hostility has continued unabated among many
Christians to
> > > this
> > > > > very day. We can't help but notice things like when a
Christian
> > > Leader
> > > > > like Jerry Falwell blame us among others he claims his God
> > hates
> > > for
> > > > > the Terrorist attacks on the United States. I Don't think
we
> > > have any
> > > > > citizens that follow his sect's extremist views, but there
are
> > > > > millions of people who do, and that makes us wary of
Christians
> > > > > interviening in the affairs of the Religio Romana.
> > > >
> > > > While it's good of Pontifex Drusus to acknowledge that he
doesn't
> > > think
> > > > any members of Jerry Falwell's sect are citizens of Nova
Roma,
> > his
> > > > central theme is claiming that somehow the Christian
citizens of
> > > Nova
> > > > Roma would, if given the chance, diminish the Religio here.
This
> > > does a
> > > > grave disservice to our many good citizens who are
Christian, and
> > > who
> > > > also are tolerant of and positive toward people of other non-
> > > Christian
> > > > religions.
> > > >
> > > > I think that some people in the Religio just have a
fundamental
> > > need to
> > > > feel persecuted. Not content with the privileged position
that
> > > the
> > > > Religio already holds in NR, these people imagine a
conspiracy of
> > > > Christian citizens where none exists.
> > > >
> > > > The truth of the matter is that the Christian citizens of
Nova
> > > Roma are
> > > > a far more tolerant and accepting lot than the vocal, hard
core
> > > Religio
> > > > radicals who have been systematically taking over the
leadership
> > > of the
> > > > Religio while denying involvement to anyone who doesn't
agree
> > with
> > > the
> > > > most extremely conservative of positions.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24388 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Voting Results, Comitia Populi Tributa
Salvete Lucius Iulius Sulla,
Amice, my sincere and happy congratulations for your appointment and
welcome in the Nova Roman Cursus Honorum. I'm sure our Res Publica
is welcoming a new very skilled Magistrate. Good luck!

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24389 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Salve,

She has apologized yesterday, with all letters. Talk with her
personally. Perhaps she wasn´t clear enough.

There is a old saying that says:

"If you are not evil, but you seem evil, you´re not evil, you are
silly."

This situation has damaged the reputation of the Colegium Pontificium
on the views of the Novo Romans. If you did with the best will, now,
if the best will, accept her apologizes and receive her back.

Show good will.

Even Iuno has forgiven the trojans, and none had a bitter
disappointment with them.

Forgive her. Accept her apologizes. Work together. She wants to
help.

Let´s the Laws give space to true Concordia.

Vale bene,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
>
> Salve.
>
> Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
>
> >Salve,
> >
> >Although it is already a point of agreement of the Constitution
and the Mos Maiorum that putting the question into the hands of the
Comitia is a answer to Fabia Vera´s needs and NR right procedures for
keeping the Liberty of the citizens, problably I, as Tribune, am not
desiring to use this ´ultima ratio tribunorum´.
> >
> >Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of Fabia
Vera on this list is suficiently prove she really wants to colaborate
on the worshipp on her best hability.
> >
> >FORGIVE HER!
> >
> >
> It is not a matter of forgiving her (at least for me). I voted to
remove
> Fabia Vera because I felt her religious views were incompatable
with the
> Collegium Pontifficum's understanding of the State Religio. Not
becuase
> of some e-mailed comment or faux pas. Am I supposed to forgive her
> views? That's ridiculous. Her religious views are her own, and
don't
> require forgiveness by me or anyone else. I'd personally be
insulted if
> someone said "It's ok Hadrianus, I forgive you for beleiving in all
that
> silly stuff". That does not change the fact that I feel her views
are
> *not* compatable with the State Religio.
>
> >
> >And allow her again on her aras.
> >
> >I´m certain you have plenty of capacity to right conduct her, and
we are at disposal to witness any oaths of colaboration and civility
again.
> >
> >There is no sin of Religio ´unforgiven´ - And on the procedures of
the ancient always had a ritual to making a purification if some
mistake were comitted
> >
> >Show you are like fathers, not vengeful men protected by a gray
area not clear enough of the Constitution.
> >
> >Be wise! Fabia Vera has already apologized.
> >
> >I myself am losing my faith on the Religio Institutions, seeing
the partisantism these questions are being handled.
> >
> >
> >
> I don't see this as "partisanship". Under the Constituion the
Collegium
> Pontificum has the *sole* right to determine the conduct of the
State
> Religio. We felt that Fabia Vera could not do the job to our
> sastisfaction, so we removed her.
>
> >Let´s be wise and mature.
> >
> >
> >Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> >L. Arminius Faustus
> >Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >
> Vale,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> Pontifex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24390 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Salvete Omnes,
I would add my voice to the peaceful request of my colleague
Tribunus Faustus inviting the Illustris members of the Collegium
Pontificium and Illustra Sp. Fabia Vera to find a common and polite
solution for the Concordia of our Res Publica.
This turmmoil is not useful for our organization and I think that
agood solution could be founded with a bit of peace between the
sides.
Fabia Vera apologized for her actions, Hadrianus did it, I would
very happy to read other peaceful comments and invitations to a
middle solution.

Thank you very much

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24391 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Voting results
G. Equitius Cato echoes the congratualtions to our new Quaestor and
Aedile.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24392 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,

Salve Tribune,

> She has apologized yesterday, with all letters. Talk with her
> personally. Perhaps she wasn´t clear enough.

Pontifex Hadrianus has already said there is nothing to forgive, she
was dismissed because her view of the religio is incompatible with
being a priest(ess). You misread his post entirely.

> There is a old saying that says:
>
> "If you are not evil, but you seem evil, you´re not evil, you are
> silly."

Your continuing this dead issue may seem to be silly to some, even
tiresome but not evil.

> This situation has damaged the reputation of the Colegium
>Pontificium
> on the views of the Novo Romans.

Actually I don't think it has with most Nova Romans, just a few who
continue to bring up issues of trials and charges when there is no
criminal matter at hand.

>If you did with the best will, now,
> if the best will, accept her apologizes and receive her back.
>
> Show good will.

I think the College HAS shown good will and explained quite carefully
why their assistant was dismissed.

> Forgive her. Accept her apologizes. Work together. She wants to
> help.

Please Tribune, show some good will and let the issue drop, it is
done. Vera has apologized to the people. Good, apology accepted. I'm
sure the pontifexes accept her apology. That isn't the issue though,
the college found her views of being a priestess incompatible with the
position so they dismissed her. Even the Pontifex Maximus in his post
from the College said his objection with her dismissal was procedural,
that formal guidelines didn't exist for the dismissal of a priestess,
but he agreed she was unfit to be a priestess. In fact most people
aren't disputing her unfitness for the position, they just don't like
the manner of the dismissal.

Perhaps what you should do is recommend to the College that for future
cases they consider establishing more formal, structured guidelines
for the dismissal of priests. I'm not sure they are needed but it
would be a more productive use of time.

> Let´s the Laws give space to true Concordia.

For the sake of Concordia let's move on. We are well past the 72 hour
veto period no matter by whose reckoning. This matter is finished.

Vale,

Palladius

----------------
----------------
----------------

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
> <c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
> > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
> >
> > Salve.
> >
> > Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
> >
> > >Salve,
> > >
> > >Although it is already a point of agreement of the Constitution
> and the Mos Maiorum that putting the question into the hands of the
> Comitia is a answer to Fabia Vera´s needs and NR right procedures
for
> keeping the Liberty of the citizens, problably I, as Tribune, am not
> desiring to use this ´ultima ratio tribunorum´.
> > >
> > >Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of Fabia
> Vera on this list is suficiently prove she really wants to
colaborate
> on the worshipp on her best hability.
> > >
> > >FORGIVE HER!
> > >
> > >
> > It is not a matter of forgiving her (at least for me). I voted to
> remove
> > Fabia Vera because I felt her religious views were incompatable
> with the
> > Collegium Pontifficum's understanding of the State Religio. Not
> becuase
> > of some e-mailed comment or faux pas. Am I supposed to forgive her
> > views? That's ridiculous. Her religious views are her own, and
> don't
> > require forgiveness by me or anyone else. I'd personally be
> insulted if
> > someone said "It's ok Hadrianus, I forgive you for beleiving in
all
> that
> > silly stuff". That does not change the fact that I feel her views
> are
> > *not* compatable with the State Religio.
> >
> > >
> > >And allow her again on her aras.
> > >
> > >I´m certain you have plenty of capacity to right conduct her, and
> we are at disposal to witness any oaths of colaboration and civility
> again.
> > >
> > >There is no sin of Religio ´unforgiven´ - And on the procedures
of
> the ancient always had a ritual to making a purification if some
> mistake were comitted
> > >
> > >Show you are like fathers, not vengeful men protected by a gray
> area not clear enough of the Constitution.
> > >
> > >Be wise! Fabia Vera has already apologized.
> > >
> > >I myself am losing my faith on the Religio Institutions, seeing
> the partisantism these questions are being handled.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > I don't see this as "partisanship". Under the Constituion the
> Collegium
> > Pontificum has the *sole* right to determine the conduct of the
> State
> > Religio. We felt that Fabia Vera could not do the job to our
> > sastisfaction, so we removed her.
> >
> > >Let´s be wise and mature.
> > >
> > >
> > >Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > >L. Arminius Faustus
> > >Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> > >
> > Vale,
> >
> > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> > Pontifex et
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24393 From: Kyrene Ariadne Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Some comments on the dismissal of Sp. Fabia Vera Fausta.
Salvete omnes,


I rarely post, but wanted to add my voice to the discussion given that it
affects me and the Religio.

The Religio is not something to be taken lightly, nor are the priesthood
appointments. I trust that given the results of the vote and my faith in the
good Pontifices of Nova Roma that the right decision was made on behalf of Nova
Roma and particularly the Religio, and the appropriate action was taken. You
have my support.



Valete,
Andrea Gladia Cyrene
Materfamilias of Gladia
Apollinis Templi Sacerdotis


=====
Xairete,
Kyrene


---
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne Yahoo!: kyreneariadne
* Hellenion: http://www.hellenion.org
* Temenos Theon: http://kyrene.4t.com
* Demos Oreiadon: http://demos-oreiadon.8m.net
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24394 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Salvete,

Just to be clear, my request to move on regarding this issue was a
personal request, not as a moderator. My apologies if any thought
otherwise. I forgot how tricky posting can be when one is in this
position.

Valete,

Palladius


----------
---------
---------------
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
>
> Salve Tribune,
>
> > She has apologized yesterday, with all letters. Talk with her
> > personally. Perhaps she wasn´t clear enough.
>
> Pontifex Hadrianus has already said there is nothing to forgive, she
> was dismissed because her view of the religio is incompatible with
> being a priest(ess). You misread his post entirely.
>
> > There is a old saying that says:
> >
> > "If you are not evil, but you seem evil, you´re not evil, you are
> > silly."
>
> Your continuing this dead issue may seem to be silly to some, even
> tiresome but not evil.
>
> > This situation has damaged the reputation of the Colegium
> >Pontificium
> > on the views of the Novo Romans.
>
> Actually I don't think it has with most Nova Romans, just a few who
> continue to bring up issues of trials and charges when there is no
> criminal matter at hand.
>
> >If you did with the best will, now,
> > if the best will, accept her apologizes and receive her back.
> >
> > Show good will.
>
> I think the College HAS shown good will and explained quite
carefully
> why their assistant was dismissed.
>
> > Forgive her. Accept her apologizes. Work together. She wants to
> > help.
>
> Please Tribune, show some good will and let the issue drop, it is
> done. Vera has apologized to the people. Good, apology accepted. I'm
> sure the pontifexes accept her apology. That isn't the issue though,
> the college found her views of being a priestess incompatible with
the
> position so they dismissed her. Even the Pontifex Maximus in his
post
> from the College said his objection with her dismissal was
procedural,
> that formal guidelines didn't exist for the dismissal of a
priestess,
> but he agreed she was unfit to be a priestess. In fact most people
> aren't disputing her unfitness for the position, they just don't
like
> the manner of the dismissal.
>
> Perhaps what you should do is recommend to the College that for
future
> cases they consider establishing more formal, structured guidelines
> for the dismissal of priests. I'm not sure they are needed but it
> would be a more productive use of time.
>
> > Let´s the Laws give space to true Concordia.
>
> For the sake of Concordia let's move on. We are well past the 72
hour
> veto period no matter by whose reckoning. This matter is finished.
>
> Vale,
>
> Palladius
>
> ----------------
> ----------------
> ----------------
>
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
> > <c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
> > > C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Lucio Arminio Fausto S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Salve.
> > >
> > > Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
> > >
> > > >Salve,
> > > >
> > > >Although it is already a point of agreement of the Constitution
> > and the Mos Maiorum that putting the question into the hands of
the
> > Comitia is a answer to Fabia Vera´s needs and NR right procedures
> for
> > keeping the Liberty of the citizens, problably I, as Tribune, am
not
> > desiring to use this ´ultima ratio tribunorum´.
> > > >
> > > >Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of
Fabia
> > Vera on this list is suficiently prove she really wants to
> colaborate
> > on the worshipp on her best hability.
> > > >
> > > >FORGIVE HER!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > It is not a matter of forgiving her (at least for me). I voted
to
> > remove
> > > Fabia Vera because I felt her religious views were incompatable
> > with the
> > > Collegium Pontifficum's understanding of the State Religio. Not
> > becuase
> > > of some e-mailed comment or faux pas. Am I supposed to forgive
her
> > > views? That's ridiculous. Her religious views are her own, and
> > don't
> > > require forgiveness by me or anyone else. I'd personally be
> > insulted if
> > > someone said "It's ok Hadrianus, I forgive you for beleiving in
> all
> > that
> > > silly stuff". That does not change the fact that I feel her
views
> > are
> > > *not* compatable with the State Religio.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >And allow her again on her aras.
> > > >
> > > >I´m certain you have plenty of capacity to right conduct her,
and
> > we are at disposal to witness any oaths of colaboration and
civility
> > again.
> > > >
> > > >There is no sin of Religio ´unforgiven´ - And on the procedures
> of
> > the ancient always had a ritual to making a purification if some
> > mistake were comitted
> > > >
> > > >Show you are like fathers, not vengeful men protected by a gray
> > area not clear enough of the Constitution.
> > > >
> > > >Be wise! Fabia Vera has already apologized.
> > > >
> > > >I myself am losing my faith on the Religio Institutions, seeing
> > the partisantism these questions are being handled.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I don't see this as "partisanship". Under the Constituion the
> > Collegium
> > > Pontificum has the *sole* right to determine the conduct of the
> > State
> > > Religio. We felt that Fabia Vera could not do the job to our
> > > sastisfaction, so we removed her.
> > >
> > > >Let´s be wise and mature.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > > >L. Arminius Faustus
> > > >Tribunus Plebis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > C. Minucius Hadrianus Feli
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24395 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: _An_appeal_to_Pontifices´_Piety
Salve Luci Armini,

> This situation has damaged the reputation of the
> Colegium Pontificium on the views of the Novo
> Romans.

I utterly reject this statement. Please do not presume
to speak for all Nova Romans.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus





____________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24396 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Re Comments to Consul Equitius: Apelo for Provacatio as well Fa
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Pompeia Minuciua Tiberia S.P.D.

Salve.

pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:

>Pompeia : Granted Sir, this part of it, I can see...but if you look
>at Fabia Vera's posts, many of them cite disgruntlement with a lack of
>trial proceedings, so although this is surely causing Fabia Vera some
>personal grief, she is not citing this as the sole reason for her
>appeal..a few times she has cried out 'no trial', and rightfully so.
>As for how the Lex Salicia can be approached, that is a matter which,
>in my opinion can be subsequently approached, and should not be the
>subject of Provocatio...it is the miscarriage of justice by which she
>received her dismissal.
>
>
>
Fabia Vera did not commit a *crime* hence she has no redress under the
Lex Salacia Poenalis. She was administratively removed from a position
which her supervisors found her to be incompatible for. It is a purely
internal matter of the Collegium Pontificum. If my Propraetor, G. Lanius
Falco was not happy with my performance as a Legate of Nova Britannia,
he could "fire" me. I would have committed no crime, just failed to live
up to his standards. Are you implying in such a case, I have the right
to a trial which could overturn my Propraetor's decision to remove me?
In such a case, why bother even giving the Propraetor any authority at all?

> However, I think that
>
>
>>the Comitia Populi Tributa could vote a resolution stating that Fabia
>>Vera had been denied due process, and requesting that the Collegium
>>Pontificum reconsider Fabia Vera's case while applying rules of
>>
>>
>evidence
>
>
>>and of process that would be commensurate with those established for
>>civil cases under the Leges Salicia.
>>
>>
>
>Pompeia: Although, they cannot force the Collegium's hand in this
>case, only recommend things, I guess, they can certainly declare that
>their treatment of this situation is not appropriate and that they
>should work as soon as possible on a conduct code of Pontifices, and
>conditions under which one can be dismissed from their religio
>position, and the exact mechanics by which this will transpire.
>


>Said
>decretum must fall in line with the constitution, and by established
>procedures of trial, where applicable. When a Priestess gets the
>boot, with undefined and irregular proceedings which are well variant
>from the Lex Salicia, and basic citizen rights under the Constitution,
>yet a man off the street who mouths off, gets a trial, gets to pick
>his judges, an advocus.....we are doing something wrong...something is
>not right here, nonne?
>
>
Undefined? Irregular? The decretum was passed in accordance with the
Decretum De Ratione Pontificum Collegii, which governs the internal
workings of the Collegium Pontificum. There was nothing irregular about it.

Fabia Vera did not commit a criminal act that would require a formal
trial as defined under the Lex Salacia Poenalis, so no trial was
necessary. (Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record).

>The key issue here, honoured Consul, is that we must all follow the
>very law which gives us our authority in the first place, the document
>which is primus in proper process, the constitution, and leges that
>fall pursuant to that, notwithstanding of course, the clauses which
>guard the collegium's 'internal affairs', but again, that is subject
>to the very document wherein which this is worded, the
>Constitution...would you not think, with respect?
>
>
>>Of course I can't imagine the Collegium Pontificum replying to such a
>>resolution with anything but thinly veiled contempt. The majority of
>>the pontifices have made their opinions quite clear on the matter
>>already, and any pressure is only going to make them more steadfast in
>>their insistance that they, and only they, have the authority to
>>determine who, when, where, why, and how anyone becomes or remains a
>>holder of religious office within the Religio Romana.
>>
>>So in the end, if this question does go to the Comitia Populi Tributa as
>>an exercise of Provocatio, I'm convinced it will produce a standoff at
>>best and a Constitutional crisis at worst. Perhaps a better solution
>>would be for the Tribunes to work with the Collegium Pontificum in the
>>same way they worked with the Censors back in January, seeking a less
>>confrontational means of resolving matters.
>>
>>
>>
>Pompeia: I respectfully disagree. There is nothing wrong with the
>populace declaring that it is unacceptable for the Collegium to
>conduct its dismissals with variance from voted and established
>proceedings lawfully mandated...with comcommittant denial of rights.
>Indeed, they are in authority, but they are equally accountable for same.
>
>I am rather sure that the collegium will not readmit Fabia Vera, and
>truthfully, I am not sure she thinks that either...the point is,
>should this happen to other people, under the same circumstances,
>using the same mechanisms.
>
>Honoured Consul, we are not taking about a legatusship here...we are
>talking about a Priestessship, which carries a good deal of emotional
>and spiritual investment..hardly a regular dismissal of a position due
>to 'unsuitablility'. The only unsuitability accompanying dismissal of
>a Priestess can be construed as Religious Misconduct...call it nefas,
>impiety, blasphemy...surely this is worthy of lawful and thoughtful
>proceedings, and the option of a trial?
>
>
Fabia Vera indicated she would not submit to the authority of the
Collegium Pontificum regarding a matter of the State Religio. I (and
five other Pontifices) construe that as "Religious Misconduct".

>These are the elements which concern me, with respect to appeal to the
>Comitia. Any subsequent actions Fabia Vera wishes to take with
>respect to her situation, is not the sole element for calling the CPT
>in my opinion, here and now. The element of the method of dismissal
>and how this is going to be approached in the future, is the key concern.
>
>It would be 'nice' and an act of piety, if the Collegium would
>collectively find in in their heart to reconsider this whole
>unfortunate mess and consider readmitting her, but that is a
>sentiment, and I fear something which cannot be fully mandated.
>
>
>
In matters relating to the Religio and the maintenance of the Pax Deorum
with the Gods, "nice" can go hang itself. I am concerned what is *right*
not what is *nice*. The two terms are not always synonymous. I am also
a bit curious how you, as a non-practitioner of the Religio, feel you
can instruct the Collegium Pontificum on what is or is not an act of
piety? Perhaps by your definition it would be, but the Christian concept
of piety is significantly different than the Roman concept of Pietas
(despite the linguistic connection). Removing and unsuitable priestess
from her office, and offering a suitable piaculum to make amends to the
Gods *IS* Pietas by the Roman definition.


>Vale,
>P. Minucia
>
>
>
>
Vale bene,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifiex et Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24397 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <mlcinnyc@...>

> The College has every right, without exception, to "police" itself.
> In deciding that Fabia was no longer fit to be a priest in the
> religio, it did so. Now, however, the citizens should have the right
> to decide if they feel that the College acted correctly; and it
> should be based on knowledge of the charges and of the defense with
> which Fabia was represented.

What you seem to be saying here is the College can police itself as long
as the citizens agree with it. Some policing!! And frankly a lot of
citizens do agree that the College is the only authority on matters of the
Religio.

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24398 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
----- Original Message -----
From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@...>

> Frankly, I am sick and tired of non-believers in the Religio trying to
tell the Collegium how to operate OUR Religion.........I get very upset when
people who do not believe in the Religio Romana attempt to dictate what is
or is not right with the Religio.

I hate posts simply saying 'I agree' but I joined Nova Roma because of the
Religio. I spend enough time defending my beliefs among non-believers in my
every day life. I never for one minute thought the Religio would have to be
defended here in a community that was set up to honour it!

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24399 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@...>

This situation has damaged the reputation of the Colegium Pontificium
on the views of the Novo Romans. If you did with the best will, now,
if the best will, accept her apologizes and receive her back.

It ce5rtainly hasn't damaged the reputation of the CP with all Nova Roman
citizens. On the contrary what, to me, would damage that reputaion is if
they were to back down and say, 'We don't think she's qualified for the post
but go ahead anyway'. That to me would make a mockery of the Religio and
everything I believe in.

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24400 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
And here I am agreeing with what you agree *lol*. That was my draw as
well. If had not been for the Religio I probably wouldn't have taken
more then a curiousity glance at Nova Roma. Nova Roma seemed like a
safe place where I could practice my worship of my gods. I do support
decisions by those who are in the position to them, and who are
clearly more informed then I am in such decisions and historical
practice. I do not see any need for the practioners of the Religio
much less it's priests and the CP be subjected to having to defend
itself. I got informative answers when requested of the CP to explain
why decisions were made, and it was not withheld when asked for. I am
neither supporting or attacking any person, I am simply in support of
the Religio and in support of the CP who act on our behalf within the
Religio. That is all.

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "k.a.wright" <k.a.wright@n...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@a...>
>
> > Frankly, I am sick and tired of non-believers in the Religio
trying to
> tell the Collegium how to operate OUR Religion.........I get very
upset when
> people who do not believe in the Religio Romana attempt to dictate
what is
> or is not right with the Religio.
>
> I hate posts simply saying 'I agree' but I joined Nova Roma
because of the
> Religio. I spend enough time defending my beliefs among non-
believers in my
> every day life. I never for one minute thought the Religio would
have to be
> defended here in a community that was set up to honour it!
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24401 From: John Walzer Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: (Nova-Roma) Oath of Office
Salvete Omnes:

In accordance with the Lex Iunia de Iusiurando as amended by the Lex Cassia Iunia de Iusiurando, I, Lucius Suetonius Nerva, take the following oath in the public forum of Nova-Roma:

I, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer), do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the People and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer), swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer) swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius, Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer), further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Plebeian Aedile to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Plebeian Aedile and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

In the province of Mediatlantica, June 2nd, year 2004 of present Era, in the consulship of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ego, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer) hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro Populo Senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter iuro.

Ego, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer) officio Aedilis Plebis Novae Romae accepto, Deos Deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus me culturum, et Virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse iuro.

Ego, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer) Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat iuro.

Ego, Lucius Suetonius Nerva (John Walzer) officiis muneris Aedilis Plebis me quam optime functurum esse praeterea iuro.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram Deis Deabusque populi romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Aedilis Plebis una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus accipio.

Mediatlanticae, a.d. IV Nonas Iun., anno MMDCCLVI ab Urbe condita, Gnaeo Salice Asture et Gnaeo Equitio Marino consulibus.


L SUETONIUS NERVA
AEDILIS PLEBIS
CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24402 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Arminius Faustus" <


Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of Fabia Vera on
this list is suficiently prove she really wants to colaborate on the
worshipp on her best hability.

Maybe I'm totally missing something here and I no way mean this as an
opinion of anyone but, to me, if you truly serve a Goddess why is it so
important to be recognised publicly for it. If Fabia Vera is sad, if she
does regret what's happened and wants to make amends surely the place to
take this would be to the Goddess herself rather than a public list. If she
truly serves the Goddess then that's not going to change whether she's
officially called a sacerdotes or not.

I've served Vesta for years now. It's THE major relationship in my life
(well she does kind of preclude having others) What I mean is I don't need
recognition by anyone else to have that relationship. If the Religio and the
Gods are really important to you why get so hung up on public recognition?

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24403 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: An appeal to Pontifices´ Piety
Absolutely. One does not need to be a sacerdos, or hold any office
within a religious system to serve their goddess. Nor to be of
beneficial contribution to the cult of that goddess. If that were
mandatory that you could not serve your goddess without being a
priest, then I do not think that Diana would have allowed my service
at her altar for 9 years.

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "k.a.wright" <k.a.wright@n...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lucius Arminius Faustus" <
>
>
> Pontifices, I adress to you. The sadness and insistence of Fabia
Vera on
> this list is suficiently prove she really wants to colaborate on the
> worshipp on her best hability.
>
> Maybe I'm totally missing something here and I no way mean this
as an
> opinion of anyone but, to me, if you truly serve a Goddess why is
it so
> important to be recognised publicly for it. If Fabia Vera is sad,
if she
> does regret what's happened and wants to make amends surely the
place to
> take this would be to the Goddess herself rather than a public
list. If she
> truly serves the Goddess then that's not going to change whether
she's
> officially called a sacerdotes or not.
>
> I've served Vesta for years now. It's THE major relationship in
my life
> (well she does kind of preclude having others) What I mean is I
don't need
> recognition by anyone else to have that relationship. If the
Religio and the
> Gods are really important to you why get so hung up on public
recognition?
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24404 From: Manius Constantinus Serapio Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Congratulations!
AVETE OMNES

My congratulation to our two new magistrates! They'll make an
outstanding job, I'm sure!

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24405 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Fabia Vera and Comitia
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "k.a.wright" <k.a.wright@n...>
wrote:

>
> I hate posts simply saying 'I agree' but I joined Nova Roma
because of the
> Religio. I spend enough time defending my beliefs among non-
believers in my
> every day life. I never for one minute thought the Religio would
have to be
> defended here in a community that was set up to honour it!
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula


Salvete Omnes,

I am a non-practictioner, but I think the above post sums up how
practictioners must feel living in a world where monotheism rules
the day and where the typical person probably treats polytheists, if
not with hostility, with scorn or even pity.

(Where I live, if I told the average person that I didn't take
the "Left Behind" novels of the rapture seriously, I would probably
be "rebuked" ;-O)

I believe our practictioner amici deserve to be a little defensive
whn it comes to the Religio and its place in NR.

Valete,

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24406 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Salve,

Meaning no disrespect to you or your office, if I were Praetor I
would tell the two parties that Gaius Dangerosus' public temper
tantrum and childish name calling only hurt the dignatis of Gaius
Dangerous and the Lex Salica Poenalis does not forbid someone to
harm their own dignatis by acting in an infantile manner. Thusly I
would refuse the petition but would agree to putting Gaius
Dangerosus on moderation for at least 30 days if not longer for
violating list guidelines.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

P.S. My hamster is male therefore can not be the hamster in question


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> Mock Trial I
>
>
> Note: This is the first of a series of mock trials,
> whose results can, eventually, be used as guideline in
> future cases. However, it can't be considered
> Iurisprudentia, of course.
>
> ----------
> The case:
> Yesterday, this Praetor received a Petitio, from the
> citizen Gaius Complainius. He says that the citizen
> Gaius Dangerosus offended him, in the message number
> "X", published in the main list.
> The Praetor verified the message, in which Gaius
> Dangerosus says, publically, to Gaius Complainius,
> that "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt
> of elderberries" and "you is a son of a silly person".
> The Praetor concluded that this was an attack to the
> dignitas of Gaius Complanius, according with Lex
> Salicia Poenalis, XIV.A. The other Praetor agrees, and
> the Petitio is approved.
> Gaius Dangerosus is informed, by the Praetores, of
> the nature of the claim presented against him.
>
> This is the Formula:
>
> Institutio Iudicis
> - Since the case is about an attack to dignitas (Lex
> Salicia Iudiciaria, VIII.a.), there will be 10
> iudices, according to the Law
>
> Intentio
> - intentio certa; the message "X" is clearly depicted
> in the main list.
>
> Demonstratio
> - not invoked because of the intentio certa.
>
> Condemnatio
> - Declaratio Publica; the reus, if convicted, shall
> make a public apology, and so retracting the ofensa
> and restoring the dignitas of the actor;
> - Inhabilitatio: the reus, if convicted, shall be
> barred of candidature for public office, and put into
> moderation in the main list, until the Praetor
> recognizes the Declaratio Publica.
>
> Now, the Praetor is considering the composition of the
> body of Iudices, and calling for candidates.
>
> ----------
>
> So, cives, it is the case. Every step will be
> described, comments are welcomed.
> Do you want to participate? If so, you can be a iudex
> ("The album iudicium shall include the names of all
> the assidui citizens that have been citizens of Nova
> Roma for over a year"). Both the reus and the actor
> are searching for advocates ...
>
>
> Vale
> Marcus Arminius
> Praetor
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_
>
> Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail:
> http://br.surveys.yahoo.com/global_mail_survey_br
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24407 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: To The Daughters of Modia
Salvete Filiae G. Modius Asthanasius Pontifex et Tribune:

What I am hearing from both of you, in your recent posts, is pretty
much the same thing, which two of you seem to be in agreement about.
Paraphrased....

"I love the Religio Romana (nothing wrong with that) SOOOO much.

I love the Gods and I respect the Religio Sooo much. And to prove it
(is there a need?), I am willing to completely abdicate any objection
or opinion of treatment that I might receive from the Collegium
Pontificium of Nova Roma...treatment that is guaranteed in other areas
of the constitution, to the extent that even 'unbelievers' would
receive a better agenda of justice than we would'...out of 'respect'
for the Religio Romana and to prove my loyalty to the Gods of Rome.

They are the Supremecy of Nova Roman justice, the CP... because they
are the chief Religious Body in Nova Roma...they can ignore the
constitution, they can ignore the rest of their decretum which renders
recourse to the Lex Salicia... ex: the Blasphemy Decretum....this is
all 'fine'....they are free to treat me as they will. To suggest
otherwise is like those pesky unbelievers, who are trying to undermine
(supposedly) the Religio....because the Religio is the State Religion
of Nova Roma, and we joined for the Religio..."

Do I have this right? Naturally, I could be wrong, and have been
countless times, and you are perfectly free to set me straight

Valete
Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24408 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Actually it has more to do with respect of office. If I do not wish
to engage in an actual religious office within my cult, I would still
have respect for the CP and listen to it's council and decisions. If
I decided on trying to apply for a position within the Religio as an
offically recognized sacerdos then I would do so acknowledging that
my application would be accepted or denied as would be fit on whether
they felt that I would be capable of serving the goddess to my
fullest extent. On the chance of acceptance of the application I
would acknowledge that I was granted the office and could be taken
away if I placed doubt on my capability to serve as sacerdos. As a
figure in the public I would be aware that the cult and the goddess
that I am serving is under scrutiny of my actions and would do my
best attempt to reflect positively on such. If my actions brought
about a decision that I was incapable of serving such a public role,
then I would accept the decision. Particularly if I was given warning
(private or otherwise) and did not correct my behavior immediately.
This would not stop me from privately serving my goddess, but I would
no longer being doing so as a public sacerdos.
I do not believe that the CP acts out of viciousness and spite and
clearly weigh matters before reaching decisions. Now if my
application was denied, then perhaps I have more to learn and can
reapply at a later time. I would not hold any maliciousness towards
the CP, but nor would I try to give them any cause to think me
unsuited.

I hope I made that clear enough :)

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Filiae G. Modius Asthanasius Pontifex et Tribune:
>
> What I am hearing from both of you, in your recent posts, is pretty
> much the same thing, which two of you seem to be in agreement about.
> Paraphrased....
>
> "I love the Religio Romana (nothing wrong with that) SOOOO much.
>
> I love the Gods and I respect the Religio Sooo much. And to prove it
> (is there a need?), I am willing to completely abdicate any
objection
> or opinion of treatment that I might receive from the Collegium
> Pontificium of Nova Roma...treatment that is guaranteed in other
areas
> of the constitution, to the extent that even 'unbelievers' would
> receive a better agenda of justice than we would'...out of 'respect'
> for the Religio Romana and to prove my loyalty to the Gods of Rome.
>
> They are the Supremecy of Nova Roman justice, the CP... because they
> are the chief Religious Body in Nova Roma...they can ignore the
> constitution, they can ignore the rest of their decretum which
renders
> recourse to the Lex Salicia... ex: the Blasphemy Decretum....this
is
> all 'fine'....they are free to treat me as they will. To suggest
> otherwise is like those pesky unbelievers, who are trying to
undermine
> (supposedly) the Religio....because the Religio is the State
Religion
> of Nova Roma, and we joined for the Religio..."
>
> Do I have this right? Naturally, I could be wrong, and have been
> countless times, and you are perfectly free to set me straight
>
> Valete
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24409 From: k.a.wright Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
----- Original Message -----
From: "pompeia_minucia_tiberia" <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>



> "I love the Religio Romana (nothing wrong with that) SOOOO much.
>
> I love the Gods and I respect the Religio Sooo much. And to prove it
> (is there a need?), I am willing to completely abdicate any objection
> or opinion of treatment that I might receive from the Collegium
> Pontificium of Nova Roma..


I know this wasn't addressed to me but it's a public list, so you'll
forgive me if I reply. I'll also presume, maybe wrongly, that it wasn't
intended to be quite as patronising as it sounds.

Yes I love the Religio. No I don't need to prove it. I simply accept that
the Collegium Pontificium of Nova Roma has the right to accept or reject
anyone it chooses for priesthood. End of Story!! The constitution doesn't
come into it. It was an internal matter and they dealt with it.

Had they taken a citizen to court, had they expelled a citizen from Nova
Roma, that would have been different but they didn't. They simply dealt
with an internal matter in the priesthood.


> Do I have this right? Naturally, I could be wrong, and have been
> countless times, and you are perfectly free to set me straight

Only you can decide if you got it wright or wrong - I would never presume
to tell you.

Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24410 From: Samantha Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
....
>
> "I love the Religio Romana (nothing wrong with that) SOOOO much.
>
> I love the Gods and I respect the Religio Sooo much. And to prove it
> (is there a need?), I am willing to completely abdicate any
objection
> or opinion of treatment that I might receive from the Collegium
> Pontificium of Nova Roma...treatment that is guaranteed in other
areas
> of the constitution, to the extent that even 'unbelievers' would
> receive a better agenda of justice than we would'...out of 'respect'
> for the Religio Romana and to prove my loyalty to the Gods of Rome.

Just so you know,
This particular paragraph whether meant to or not is rather insulting
in the way that it is worded. I have no need to prove my loyalty to
my gods, my gods know it. I feel no more particular need to prove
anything really. Yes I have respect for the CP as well as all other
people in offices in the Religio, because I do believe that they have
well earned that respect. So it is not about a blind teenage "I love
and respect soooo much that I will hang myself off a cliff if asked
to". It is more of those people who hold offices within the Religio
have my respect and support as they have worked hard to not only
attain those offices but in their work therein. Yes everyone can get
angry and frustrated, but I have not seen direct maliciousness. So my
thoughts are my own not solely for my love of my gods and the Religio.

Lucia Modia Lupa
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24411 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Quaestor
AVETE CIVES

It is an honour for me to be elected Quaestor of Nova Roma, so to
start here my Cursus Honorum.
I will always act for the growth and development of our Res Publica,
and for its best interests.

I want to thank all the Cives that supported me and my candidacy: be
sure that I'll make use of all my virtues for our common Good.

Thank you, Cives

OPTIME VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24412 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Oath of Office
AVETE

I, Lucius Iulius Sulla (Bernardo Cortese), do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Iulius Sulla (Bernardo
Cortese), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Lucius Iulius Sulla (Bernardo Cortese), swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Lucius Iulius Sulla (Bernardo Cortese), swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Iulius Sulla (Bernardo Cortese), further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Questorship to
the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Questor and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24413 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Provocatio
T Labienus Fortuanatus Quiritibus SPD

Fl Vedius and others have argued that only those officials of the Res
Publica mentioned in section IV of the constitution are magistrates in
the eyes of the constitution. From a strict legalist standpoint, this
is obviously true. Unfortunately, that interpretation means that cives
have no explicit right to appeal the acts of provincial governors and
their various assistants. Since governors have imperium (whereas
pontifices and sacerdotes do not), it seems that it would be better for
cives to be able to invoke provocatio against their actions.

Either an explicit addition of governors to section II.B.5 or, better, a
broader interpretation of the right is in order (perhaps with an
explicit exemption from it for the Collegia Pontificum et Augurum).

Valete
--
"Use every man after his desert, and who shall escape whipping? Use
them after your own honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more
merit is in your bounty."
-Shakespeare
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24414 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
Salve Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Well done Consul!!! Thank you Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus !!!!

This is some of the best news Nova Romans have had in a while.

The first thing that comes to mind are those Roman Virtues that Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus demonstrates on and off the list.

Patientia, Auctoritas, Dignitas, Gravitas, Honestas, and Aequitas

His quiet competence, leadership and the simple decency of my friend Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus will serve all Nova Romans well in our hour of need.

I trust the people of Nova Roma will see this appointment as favorably as I do.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator


Salvete Quirites,

Ever since the disappearance of Praetor Noricus, I have been acting "in
loco praetoris" on such occassions as it has seemed warranted by
circumstances. One of these matters I've been helping out with is the
moderation of the main list. As we all know, it's a busy list, and it's
a lot of work to moderate.

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, who was Praetor last year, has offered
to help out with the moderation tasks and I have accepted his offer of
help. He will be acting under the aegis of my Consular imperium while
he performs this task. As a Consular and a Senator of Nova Roma, I
don't think he needs any thing else to make him 'legit' for this task,
but I'll certainly consider any suggestions that anyone may have.

Once we have a replacement for Praetor Noricus in place and on the job,
both Palladius and I will relinquish moderator duties and hand them over
to the duely elected Praetor suffectus.

Valete,

-- Marinus





Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24415 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: The Senate Meeting for May 2757
Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Galerius Paulinus Omnibus SPD

The session of the Senate is closed and the votes have been tallied as follows:

Formal debate ended on May 22, at 20:30 Central European Time
Voting began immediately afterwards and ended on May 31st at 20:30 Central European Time

The results were officially published by the presiding Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus on the Senate list on
June 1, 2757 (06/01/2004).

The following Senators cast votes in time. They are referred to below by a code composed by their initials:

GnEM - Gn. Equitius Marinus
CFQ - C. Fabius Quintilianus
FAC - Fr. Apulus Caesar
GnSA - Gn. Salix Astur
LPO - L. Pompeius Octavianus
MM-TA - M. Minucius-Tiberius Audens
ATMC - Ap. Tullius Marcellus Cato
AICPM - Alexander I.C. Probus Macedonicus
LECA - L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
DIPI - D. Iunius Palladius Invictus
LCSF Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
CFD - C. Flavius Diocletianus
QFM - Q. Fabius Maximus
DIS - D. Iunius Silanus
AGG - A. Gryllus Graecus
TLF - T. Labienus Fortunatus
LSA - L. Sergius Australicus
MCJ - M. Cassius Iulianus
PC - Patricia Cassia
GMM - G. Marius Merullus
MAM - M. Arminius Maior

Senators Gn. Octavius Noricus and M. Octavius Germanicus did not to vote.

Remember that "VTI ROGAS" indicates a vote in favor of an item, "ANTIQUO" is a vote against, and "ABSTINEO" is an abstention. NV indicates no vote was cast for that item.

I. Prorogation of Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus as Propraetor America Medioccidentalis Superior.

Item I passes with 21 votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS
FAC -VTI ROGAS
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

II. Prorogation of Marcus Darius Firmitus as Propraetor of Canada Orientalis.

Item II passes with 21 votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS
FAC -VTI ROGAS
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS I supported him from the start, and will
continue to support him. He is doing a fine job, and is organizing
some face to face gatherings in Canada Orientalis, including
participation of some of our citizens from the U.S.
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

III. Prorogation of Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus as Propraetor of Venedia.

Item III passes with 21 votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS I think this experienced Propraetor may become very important now as EU has been expanded.
FAC -VTI ROGAS
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS I strongly support his candidacy and hope our neighbor provinces to co-operate actively on organizing common events..
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

IV. Approval of Gaia Fabia Livia as Propraetor of Britannia.

Item IV passes with 21 votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS She is a very competent and hard working citizen, I know by my own experience that she will be good for Britannia Provincia.
FAC -VTI ROGAS
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS I vote yes with pleasure.
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS My heartfelt thanks to Decimus Iunius Silanus for his outstanding work.
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

V. Approval of Lucius Rutilius Minervalis as Propraetor of Gallia.

Item V passes with 21 votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS I supported this citizen last time and I have no reason to change my
mind. I am sure we will have the right person in this position now.
FAC -VTI ROGAS I supported him during the last appointment won by Diana Aventina and I'll continue to support him as the best choice now from Provincia Gallia.
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS I believe he will do an excellent job
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS May Gallia prosper under his leadership.
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

VI. Approval of Senatus Consultum to waive assiduus requirement for C. Argentinus Cicero, to be eligible for appointment as propraetor of Argentina.

Item VI passes with 16 votes in favor 0 opposing and 5 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS I support this as I see the need for it, especially as Consul Gnaeus
Equitius Marinus has promised to pay his taxes.
FAC ABSTINEO: I think this could be an hard precedent, but I have read that
someone would pay for him. I support this last solution
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO : VTI ROGAS I'll be very glad if he is appointed propraetor. And he already has experience as scriba Propraetoris Hispaniae.
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -ABSTINEO
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS I believe that someone has volunteered to pay his assessment, or has done so.
DIPI -ABSTINEO
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -ABSTINEO I don't C. Argentinus Cicero enough to decide on yes.
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS Although I am not terribly keen on setting precedents of this kind,
I have to agree that Argentina and her citizens currently deserve special consideration. No one will benefit by leaving this province without a governor. Further, I am satisfied that this citizens taxes will be paid prior to his appointment although I would have preferred this to have happened prior tothis vote.
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

VII. Approval of Caius Argentinus Cicero as propraetor of Argentina.

Item VII passes with 18 votes in favor 0 opposing and 3 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS I am prepared to support him, especially as he has the support of
Illustrious Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
FAC -ABSTINEO
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS I'll be very glad if he is appointed propraetor. And he already has experience as scriba Propraetoris Hispaniae.
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -ABSTINEO
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -ABSTINEO
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS Following the endorsement of Senator Octavianus, I can only support this citizens appointment, although, as stated above, I would be more comfortable if his taxes had already been paid.
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

VIII. Approval of Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus as Translator of Polish.

Item VII I passes with 21 votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS As EU expand east I think Nova Roma will get more citizens in Eastern Europe. Many millions speak Polish, I am overjoyed to see this new Interpreter
FAC -VTI ROGAS
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS


IX. Withdrawal of Nova Roma sponsorship from the Ludus Magnus Gladiatorial Academy, a former unit of Legio XXIV Mediatlantica and now a separate organization.

Item IX passes with 17 votes in favor 2 opposing and 2 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS I know the arguments for this and support them
FAC -ABSTINEO
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -ABSTINEO I have seen nowhere that this item was explained. If I
overlooked a discussion, I apologize.
MCJ -ANTIQUO
Although the Ludus Magnus group is no longer allied with Legio XXIV, the leadership of the group is still friendly to Nova Roma. They will be participating at Roman Market Day in September; they should be contacted regarding sponsorship, and their existing sponsorship simply transferred to their new, separate identity.
PC -NEGAT
GMM VTI ROGAS
MAM -VTI ROGAS

X. Approval of the Senatus Consultum concerning the association of Balticum with Venedia.

Item X passes with 17 votes in favor 3 opposing and 1 abstentions

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS This is the same formula as the same as between Pannonia and Bohemia. I think this solution will be for the best both for Venedia and Balticum until there are enough citizens interested in a separate Balticum.
FAC -ABSTINEO
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -ABSTINEO
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -ANTIQUO
DIS -ANTIQUO I do not know enough about this measure to support it at the current time.
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -ABSTINEO
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -VTI ROGAS
MAM -ANTIQUO The notion of association between provinces or
territories is vague; i prefer the Baltic states as part of Provincia
Venedia, to be eventually separated later.

XI. Revocation of the Senatus Consultum of 11/09/2000 entitled "The Edicta Commentary Period of Marcus Iunius Iulianus."

Item XI passes with 2O votes in favor 0 opposing and 0 abstentions and 1 no vote

GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS
FAC -VTI ROGAS
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -VTI ROGAS
DIPI -VTI ROGAS
LCSF -VTI ROGAS
CFD -VTI ROGAS
QFM -VTI ROGAS
DIS -VTI ROGAS
AGG-VTI ROGAS
TLF -VTI ROGAS
LSA -VTI ROGAS
MCJ -VTI ROGAS
PC -VTI ROGAS
GMM -NV
MAM -VTI ROGAS

XII. Approval of the Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinarii, an amendment to the Constitution which has yet to be presented to the Comitia Centuriata.

Item XII FAILS with 9 votes in favor 8 opposing and 3 abstentions and 1 no vote


GnEM-VTI ROGAS
CFQ -VTI ROGAS When many just cried out loud, Tribune Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
looked for a solution to the present situation, with Praetor Noricus (who at the same time is our list moderator) missing. I think we should honor that. When I look at the proposal I find that I am willing to support it. This is a time when we must look for solutions
and be constructive.
FAC -VTI ROGAS As Senator and Tribunus, I give my full support to the amendment by my colleague Tiberius Paulinus. This is the best and more honorable and fast solution.
GnSA -VTI ROGAS
LPO -VTI ROGAS
MM-TA -VTI ROGAS
ATMC -VTI ROGAS
AICPM-VTI ROGAS
LECA -ANTIQUO a provision should be made for prior notice given, or "has not been for in contact for a period of two months, (unless prior notification has been submitted to the Senate.)"

DIPI -ANTIQUO I was going to vote for this because in general it is a good law but
Cincinnatus has a good point which I overlooked. If someone informs us ahead of time he is leaving an exception should be made. For example if in mid-term a magistrate finds out he is being deployed overseas, and informs the senate, provisions can be made to keep him in office and still have his duties carried out. I ask my fellow
senators to reverse their votes or at least abstain until such a change be written in t he law.

LCSF -ABSTINEO

CFD -ABSTINEO I concur my colleagues D. Iunius Palladius and L. Equitius Cincinnatus in their comments about exemptions. So I suggest to amend the draft and put
it on the agenda for the next Senate session again.

QFM -ANTIQUO Something should be added waiving this Lex requirement if a previous announcement given to this Senate informing them of the absence.

DIS -ANTIQUO I agree with the comments of my eminent colleague,
Senator Cincinnatus.

AGG-ANTIQUO

TLF -ABSTINEO I do think that language allowing for extenuating circumstances is desirable in this amendment. I also think that, as this is the only objection mentioned by any senator to the amendment, and as it is established practice in Nova Roma to give the senate its say on amendments after the comitia have voted on them, that it would be reasonable to present a corrected form of the amendment to the centuriae without having to consult the senate a second time on the matter.

LSA -ANTIQUO In deference to points already articulated by others.

MCJ -ANTIQUO I agree that this lex should be rewritten to include provision for legitimate announced leave of absences, and resubmitted at the next Senate vote.

PC -ANTIQUO
GMM -NV
MAM -VTI ROGAS



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24416 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Results of the Plebiscitum
Gaius Modius Athanasius Agrippinae Modiae Aureliae salutem dicit

I'll get you involved in Nova Roma politics one of these days :)

Vale;

Putz Modius :)

In a message dated 6/2/2004 2:48:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
whiterose13.geo@... writes:
LOL! I'm assuming the individual who made me a 'write-in' candidate
was none other than my honorable paterfamilias Gaius Modius
Athanasius - you putz. I would have turned it down even if I had
won. :P

Congratulations L. Suetonius Nerva!

Valete,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24417 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: A Correction:To The Daughters of Modia
---Salvete Omnes:

In addressing what I thought were two gens members of Modia, I
mistakenly confused Flavia Lucilla for a Modia, when in fact she is
not..so in my reference to two Modia, I was incorrect...it was Modia
Lupa and Flavia Lucilla.

My apologies if this aspect of my post caused you offence.

Valete,
Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Filiae G. Modius Asthanasius Pontifex et Tribune:
>
> What I am hearing from both of you, in your recent posts, is pretty
> much the same thing, which two of you seem to be in agreement about.
> Paraphrased....
>
> "I love the Religio Romana (nothing wrong with that) SOOOO much.
>
> I love the Gods and I respect the Religio Sooo much. And to prove it
> (is there a need?), I am willing to completely abdicate any objection
> or opinion of treatment that I might receive from the Collegium
> Pontificium of Nova Roma...treatment that is guaranteed in other areas
> of the constitution, to the extent that even 'unbelievers' would
> receive a better agenda of justice than we would'...out of 'respect'
> for the Religio Romana and to prove my loyalty to the Gods of Rome.
>
> They are the Supremecy of Nova Roman justice, the CP... because they
> are the chief Religious Body in Nova Roma...they can ignore the
> constitution, they can ignore the rest of their decretum which renders
> recourse to the Lex Salicia... ex: the Blasphemy Decretum....this is
> all 'fine'....they are free to treat me as they will. To suggest
> otherwise is like those pesky unbelievers, who are trying to undermine
> (supposedly) the Religio....because the Religio is the State Religion
> of Nova Roma, and we joined for the Religio..."
>
> Do I have this right? Naturally, I could be wrong, and have been
> countless times, and you are perfectly free to set me straight
>
> Valete
> Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24418 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Salvete

--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
escreveu:
> Salvete Quirites,
[..]
> > Both the reus and the actor are searching for
> advocates ...
>
> What the heck, I'll offer to advocate for the reus,
> Dangerosus.

M.Arminius: G.Dangerosus gratefully accept.

> Anyone who can come up with an original insult
> (and really, has anyone ELSE
> ever accused a citizen of having a hamster for a
> mother?) in the Nova
> Roma list deserves a good defense.

M.Arminius: This insult wasnt that original...
In fact, it is nearly 30 years old:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/quotes

> Valete Quirites,
> -- Marinus

Vale
M.Arminius

______________________________________________________________________

Participe da pesquisa global sobre o Yahoo! Mail:
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24419 From: M Arminius Maior Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Mock Trial I
Salve


--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@...>
escreveu:
> Salve,
>
> Meaning no disrespect to you or your office, if I
> were Praetor I would tell the two parties that
> Gaius Dangerosus' public temper
> tantrum and childish name calling only hurt the
> dignatis of Gaius Dangerous and the Lex Salica
> Poenalis does not forbid someone to
> harm their own dignatis by acting in an infantile
> manner. Thusly I would refuse the petition but
> would agree to putting Gaius
> Dangerosus on moderation for at least 30 days if not
> longer for violating list guidelines.

M.Arminius: Calvus, i concur with you; those insults
are too much silly.
However, by effects of this mock trial, please
consider the insults harsher than they really is.
Like, may be, " #@*! ", for example.

> Vale,
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>
> P.S. My hamster is male therefore can not be the
> hamster in question

M.Arminius: But it is an african or european Hamster?


Vale
Marcus Arminius
Praetor


______________________________________________________________________

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24420 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

> In Pastor Niemoeller's words: "First they came for the Communists,
> but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then they came for the
> Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did nothing.
> Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade
> unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew - so I
> did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left who
> could stand up for me."

Thank you so very much for comparing the Collegium Pontificum to the
Nazis, about whom there is no question Niemoeller was writing. It
goes well with the characterisation of the Collegium as the Taliban.
And people wonder why we think there there are those who despise
practitioners of the Religio in Nova Roma.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24421 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "k.a.wright" <k.a.wright@n...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pompeia_minucia_tiberia" <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...>
>
>
>
> > "I love the Religio Romana (nothing wrong with that) SOOOO much.
> >
> > I love the Gods and I respect the Religio Sooo much. And to prove it
> > (is there a need?), I am willing to completely abdicate any
objection
> > or opinion of treatment that I might receive from the Collegium
> > Pontificium of Nova Roma..
>
>
> I know this wasn't addressed to me but it's a public list, so you'll
> forgive me if I reply.

Pompeia: Actually, with respect it was, and I mistakenly confused you
for a Modia. My apologies, and thank you for your response.


I'll also presume, maybe wrongly, that it wasn't
> intended to be quite as patronising as it sounds.
>
> Yes I love the Religio. No I don't need to prove it. I simply
accept that
> the Collegium Pontificium of Nova Roma has the right to accept or reject
> anyone it chooses for priesthood. End of Story!! The constitution
doesn't
> come into it.

It was an internal matter and they dealt with it.
>
> Had they taken a citizen to court, had they expelled a citizen
from Nova
> Roma, that would have been different but they didn't. They simply dealt
> with an internal matter in the priesthood.

Pompeia: It is all good then, in your case. If you are willing to
accept this for yourself, this is fine, but others won't be so
willing. We cannot totally discount the constitution, however..where
the collegium gets its authority...Section B-7: 'the right to seek
and receive assistance and advise from the State of matters of
religious, and social dispute, occurring within and outside the direct
jurisdiction of (Nova Roma)"
If a citizen does not receive such from the Collegium, in the affairs
which affect them, they may go outside that realm and appeal for it
elsewhere, in which case it is questionable as to whether it is any
longer an 'internal' affair, as defined by the clauses giving the
collegium unappealable powers over its internal affairs. This is not
disrespect of the Collegium's authority to police itself...it boils
down to the manner in which it fails to give those things which a
person within their body is entitled to as a citizen.

There are good people in the Collegium and Priesthoods. But nobody
should make the mistake, even unconsciously, of thinking they are
infallible, even if one is a Practitioner. I am sorry you are in such
a predicament, in continually having to defend your faith
macronationally, (you guys should move to Canada :), but my concerns
over justice for a practitioner can hardly be assumed to be rooted in
religious intolerance or disrespect for my fellow citizens who follow
the path of the Religio, or indeed the Collegium itself.
>
>
> > Do I have this right? Naturally, I could be wrong, and have been
> > countless times, and you are perfectly free to set me straight
>
> Only you can decide if you got it wright or wrong - I would never
presume
> to tell you.

Pompeia: Well, you certainly have lots more confidence in me, than I
do, sometimes...(and look up... you misspelled 'right'...your name is
'wright', right?)...kidding,.... Ok, the joke groaned.....

Vale,
Pompeia
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24422 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: Quaestor
---Congratulations Lucius Iulius Sulla Quaestor 2757 AUC NOVA ROMA :)!!!

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Iulius" <21aprile@e...> wrote:
> AVETE CIVES
>
> It is an honour for me to be elected Quaestor of Nova Roma, so to
> start here my Cursus Honorum.
> I will always act for the growth and development of our Res Publica,
> and for its best interests.
>
> I want to thank all the Cives that supported me and my candidacy: be
> sure that I'll make use of all my virtues for our common Good.
>
> Thank you, Cives
>
> OPTIME VALETE
> L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24423 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: The myth of hostile Christians in Nova Roma
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.D.

Salve, Scaurus.

It was meant as a metaphor. Lanias took it as such, and replied in
kind, if you'll read his response (#24387) --- he even turned it to
make a point of his own, which I understood and took without
offense. However, if it was too strong a metaphor, and offended you,
then I apologize.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> > In Pastor Niemoeller's words: "First they came for the
Communists,
> > but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then they came for
the
> > Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did
nothing.
> > Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade
> > unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew -
so I
> > did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left who
> > could stand up for me."
>
> Thank you so very much for comparing the Collegium Pontificum to the
> Nazis, about whom there is no question Niemoeller was writing. It
> goes well with the characterisation of the Collegium as the
Taliban.
> And people wonder why we think there there are those who despise
> practitioners of the Religio in Nova Roma.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24424 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-06-02
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
Po:

So once you realized she wasn't a part of Gens Modia you decided to stop your "attack?"

Its seems rather obvious your intent to attack the members of Gens Modia. Frankly, I find your actions pathetic. If you want to attack me, then attack me. But don't attack me through the members of my Gens.

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 6/2/2004 9:55:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pompeia_minucia_tiberia@... writes:

> Pompeia: Actually, with respect it was, and I mistakenly
> confused you
> for a Modia. My apologies, and thank you for your response.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24425 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,

Salve consul Marine,


> Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, who was Praetor last year, has
>offered to help out with the moderation tasks and I have accepted
>his offer of help. He will be acting under the aegis of my Consular
>imperium while he performs this task. As a Consular and a Senator
>of Nova Roma, I don't think he needs any thing else to make
>him 'legit' for this task, but I'll certainly consider any
>suggestions that anyone may have.
>
> Once we have a replacement for Praetor Noricus in place and on the
>job, both Palladius and I will relinquish moderator duties and hand
>them over to the duely elected Praetor suffectus.


Thank you for this trust consul. I will do my best to fulfill it. I
look forward to the day in the near future when Nova Roma will again
have two active praetors but in the meanwhile I am here to serve.

In service to Rome,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Interim list moderator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24426 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Decius Iunius Palladius to serve as interim list moderator
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:

Salve Tiberi Galeri Pauline,


> Salve Consul Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
> Well done Consul!!! Thank you Senator Decius Iunius Palladius
Invictus !!!!
>
> This is some of the best news Nova Romans have had in a while.
>
> The first thing that comes to mind are those Roman Virtues that
>Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus demonstrates on and off the
>list.
>
> Patientia, Auctoritas, Dignitas, Gravitas, Honestas, and Aequitas
>
> His quiet competence, leadership and the simple decency of my
>friend Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus will serve all Nova Romans
>well in our hour of need.
>
> I trust the people of Nova Roma will see this appointment as
>favorably as I do.

My friend, I am not frequently embarassed but this ebullient praise
almost did it. I began looking over my shoulder wondering if you were
referring to someone else. ;- )

Anyway, thank you. I hope to live up to your expectations. Let me
emphasize that this position is temporary until the return of Noricus
or until a new praetor takes office. I am just helping to ease the
burden of the moderation team (now including the consul) during
trying times.

Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24427 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Fabia Vera and the CP
Tribunus Plebis Tiberius Galerius Paulinus Omnibus SPD

I have read and reread everything that has been said on this list as well as the discussions that the Tribunes have been having on the issue of Fabia Vera. It is my belief that nothing can be done constitutionally at this point to change what has occurred. The CP has every right to appoint the priests of Nova Roma and therefore they have the corresponding right to remove them. In my opinion, most people who objected to this action did so out of a profound and sincere believe that Roman fair play was not involved in this process NOT that the action could not be undertaken. If the CP decides to adopt a written procedure in the future it may help to alleviate some of the misgivings that some citizens have felt over last few days.

It is my sincere desire that this issue come to an end now for nothing good can come about by prolonging it. Calling the Comitia, which in this instance could only ASK the CP to do this or that but cannot command them to do so would be a waste of time and would increase the likelihood of an even more poisonous atmosphere.

I would have asked that we drop this in honor of Concordia but I do not believe there is very much of that left in Nova Roma or at least we have not seen it here for sometime.


Curate ut valeatis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24428 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: (no subject)
G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

Salvete omnes, teque bona Iuppiter auctet ope.


In the Forum, I say:

"Iuppiter Capitoline et auctor ac stator Romani nominis Gradive Mars,
perpetuorum custos Vesta ignium et quidquid numinum hanc Romanii
respublicae molem in amplissimum terrarum orbis fastigium extulit,
vos publica voce obtestor atque precor: custodite servate protegite
hunc statum, hanc pacem, hunc collegium pontificium quiritibusque."

Jupiter Capitolinus, Mars Gradivus called progenitor and aide of the
Romans, Vesta, perpetual guardian of fire, and whatever divine powers
in this greatness of Roman sovereignty, the greatest republic on
earth, exalted to the highest dignity, to You the public voice calls
to witness and to pray: guard, preserve, and protect this state, this
peace, this college of pontiffs and these citizens. --- after Vellius
Paterculus (19 BCE – c. 39 CE)

valete in pace deorum,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24429 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: ante diem III Nonae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem III Nonae Iunii and sacred to Bellona; the day is
comitialis. On this date in 296 BCE the temple of Bellona was vowed.

Tomorrow is pridie Nonae Iunii and the feria of Hercules Magnus
Custos; the day is comitialis. The temple of Hercules Magnus Custos
was dedicated (82 BCE).

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24430 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Pridie Kalendae Iunii
G. Iulius Scaurus Flaviae Lucillae Merulae salutem dicit.

Salve, Flavia Lucilla.

Here is a link which discusses the arbutus tree:
http://www.suncrestnurseries.com/descriptcat/arbutus.html. I am
inclined to think that the North American Madrone is genetically close
enough to substitute.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24431 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Codswallop
Codswallop. This list has now degenerated into pure, unadulterated
codswallop. I have sat back (for once) and watched how this debate
has evolved. I see now that we are in the midst of a good old-
fashioned English village drama society presentation.

JOAN OF SNARK – A tale of heroic death, evil johnnies in turbans and
crusaders.

Enter stage left our latter-day Joan of Snark, hoisted aloft onto a
pile of smouldering faggots by a collection of grey-bearded evil old
men (deep hiss from the audience) wearing black turbans and togas.
As the flames begin lick around those innocent little ankles wails
of anguish are heard from the assembled collection of rustic yokels.

JOAN: "Ohhh I am unfairly condemned – it twas but a joke, I have the
right to mount my legalistic nit-picking defence and totally ignore
the authority of my religious leaders" (feebly kicks burning embers
away)

WORDY LAWYER TYPE: "I say – this is most unfair. My client has had
no right to consult with her mob-appointed attorney. According to my
extensive codex, which I just happen to have here in the folds of my
toga, (produces rather thin and empty looking card index) I can
prove by dint of legal chicanery and trickery that the assembled
collection of evil old priests are in fact planning to take over the
world and eventually the universe. I appeal to anyone bored enough
to listen to assist me in clogging up this forum with infantile
assertions, convoluted navel-fluff picking legalistic tomfoolery and
seemingly wordy and endless speeches.

{Appreciative "ooooooohhhh" from segments of the audience}

EVIL OLD MAN IN TURBAN: "And after we have finished with this noble,
innocent, fresh-faced, pure, saintly, caring, loving, non-caustic,
little flower, YOU are next, and then all Christians, and their
families, and their dogs, cats and parrots, goats, sheep, pigs. You
will all perish!

{Deep "hisssssssssssss" from segments of the audience}

Enter stage right, rapidly cobbled together impromptu crusade of
chivalrous Knits (or is that Knights?) riding hobbyhorses and waving
papier-mâché swords forged from discarded copies of the constitution
and the legal ramblings of WORDY LAWYER TYPE, one of which rides to
the front and chortlesÂ…..

"I say – tally-ho chaps I spy a damsel in distress! Now please you
turban chappies understand as we are grinding your authority under
our heel that this is not actually an attack on you as religious
types or persons but a spirited defence of this noble innocent
little flower, so helpless and weak. I have been advised by our
WORDY LAWYER TYPE attorney that we should preface our assault on you
blighters by reading this disclaimer repeatedly."

(Puzzled looks from assembled yokels who appear to be getting bored
and want to get to the turnip throwing part of the play)

EVIL OLD MAN IN TURBAN: "Dang foiled again in our evil plot to
subjugate all non-believers into slavery. Dang diddly dang!"

(Collection of evil old men in turbans join hands and sing various
refrains from the Life of Brian and exit stage left stoning the
crowd who in turn pelt them with turnips. Yokels then get bored and
drift off to the pub discussing when the next turnip throwing
contest is going to occur)

WORDY LAWYER TYPE: "Doesn't anyone want to consult my codex?"
(follows yokels and tries to engage them in convoluted explanations
of why he should be allowed to rewrite the constitution)

JOAN: "HOI! What about me???? Can someone put this fire out? Hey???
I contracted to be a professional victim, not a totally forgotten
and now ignored reason for the Grand Crusade to suppress the Evil
Plot of Wicked Old Men in Turbans. Where's my agent, WORDY LAWYER
TYPE? HellooooooooÂ…..???"

Drama critic from the Steeple Bumpton Free Advertiser shakes his
head sadly and turns and says to no one in particular:

"Once again this drama group has managed to stage a production that
they had said would dazzle the audience but by the second act
fizzled into meaningless political cant, legalistic mumbo-jumbo and
an outright assault on authority figures. The character of the EVIL
OLD MAN IN TURBAN was so obviously a parody and the feature of an
overactive imagination, while the WORDY LAWYER TYPE was simply
boring (as usual). The actress who played JOAN tried to portray a
victim of cruel injustice, but the author of this sad and silly
drama failed to resolve the paradox that the character she was based
on in real-life was never burnt at the stake, is still alive and
just as tumultuous as always and was merely fired for mockery. The
elements of victimization just did not present well in this "play"
(or is that plague?). As for the crusaders, what can one say but
perhaps they should invest in real horses instead of hobbyhorses, as
then they maybe more believable. Sadly I know I will be here next
week for yet another stab murdering the noble art of drama.

Yours in thoroughly bored anticipation and now going to collect
turnips to pelt to death the idiot who masterminded yet another
reason why recruiting people into Nova Roma is currently a fatuous
waste of time.

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

Grand Imperial Drama Critic of the Nova Roman Times
Imperial Wizard of the Keepers of the Empty Card Codex Index Box
Baronial representative of the New Order of Turnip Growers
Association
etc. etc etc.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24432 From: Pat Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: The Collegium, Ultramontanism, and the Religio
Salvete,

I might do well to observe that my comments on these subjects should be
read narrowly. The discussion held with Lucia Modia Lupa
only tangentially addresses the central considerations of this whole
incident. I was simply observing that orthopraxy is our way, and how that
bears on such a situation. Living in societies which descend from a
culture obsessed with orthodoxy to the point of slaughtering each other in
the street, going to war and so forth, we probably need to remind ourselves
-- regularly -- that it is actions that speak to us, and the Gods.

While I have no doubt that They prefer devout belief, it is clear that they
are quite satisfied with those who know how to properly respect Them and
the rites.

While I was initially taken aback at the decretum, I am no longer, and am
satisfied that it is lawful and proper and appropriate. Whether it was
just and correct, I am not really in a position to say. I wasn't party to
the discussion and vote. But the Constitution rests these matters in the
Collegio and entrusts that body to do what is right, and needful. Clearly,
being a priest or priestess is not a right. It is a privilege and an
obligation. And as such, I can accept that the removal of the role of
sacerdos was not, per se, punishment.

I hope that the Collegio's decision was correct. I trust that it was. I
really see no choice but to do so

To be honest, my real concern had to do with the permanent ban that went
with it. But again, there is a judgement call that is being made--and it
is being made by the people who were entrusted with making such
judgements. There being no process laid out in the Constitution for this
body to deal with such concerns, we have to accept that the Pontifex
Maximus organized this in a manner he saw as appropriate. One presumes
that this body has, or will, codify how such things are dealt with.

Of course, it is my sincere hope that Nova Roma does not have to wrestle
with the concern of a sacerdos making grossly inappropriate remarks (be
they jest or not) regarding ceremonies of the Religio.

Boldly addressing some of Cato's comments to Scaurus...

>CATO: No, Scaurus, it would be a matter of the citizens of the State
>sitting in judgement of a *particular* and *unique* action of a body
>which derives its authority from the State. The question here is
>not, nor has it ever been (and I should know because I began this
>whole topic) a question of the religio; it is a question of due
>process under the law. For a citizen to be *denied* due process or a
>mode of appeal under any circumstances, religious or otherwise (but
>here specifically religious), smacks of tyranny and despotism.

The citizen has--according to the decretum--not been punished. I realize
that this may seem like a legalistic point, but I think it an important
one. No one has a right to hold these posts. They are not part of the
cursus honorum. They are important and honorable roles, but other than
the public embarrassment of being removed, there is no harm done. And the
embarrassment appears to be incidental to the Collegio's intent. Rather
than punishing, they were acting in defense of the Religio (as they
perceived the need), lest the rather outrageous remark proposing the
sacrifice of Scaurus offend the Gods, or establish a very low standard of
respect expected and demanded for the pontifices and the performance of the
rites of the Religio.

I am not saying that there is nothing troubling about all
this. Unfortunately, it is rather distressing in a number of ways.

But in the end? I am left with a choice about what to presume. I have
been in a not terribly different situation myself, and have some idea about
how complicated and awkward it can be. Knowing something of Scaurus from
many months of reading his many careful and considered posts, and offended
as I was by the remarks in question, I'm inclined to accept that the
Collegio's actions were--probably--correct, and just.

>These
>are the same kind of circumstances which led to the creation of the
>Tribunes of the Plebs in Roma Antiqua.

Then all you need do is replicate that sort of creation. Persuade the vast
bulk of the population (vox populi vox dei...) to remove itself to make the
point.

>You do injustice to non-
>practitioners if you pronounce that we (I include myself as a non-
>practitioner) "have no fundamental commitment to the religio"; the
>religio is the bedrock of the NR State, and as such, I have a great
>deal of commitment to it as a citizen. It is not only religio
>practitioners who are devoted to the State, and as I said the State
>rests upon the foundation of the religio. As a *citizen* of NR, I
>see the health of the religio as part and parcel of the health of the
>State as a whole.

Good. But I fear that your interest is somewhat -- if you will pardon the
phrase, given the context -- bloodless. If you care about the proper place
and practice of the Religio, but do not follow it, you must accept that
there is something more there for those of us who do follow it. The idea
of having a "defrocked" sacerdos appeal to the people to override the
decisions of the Collegio is... well, rather radical, as well as
unconstitutional, it appears. Given that most of the populace probably
does not actively believe and participate in the Religio, the idea of
having them act as an oversight body is absurd.

Yes, it would be wonderful to have some reasonable and legitimate place and
way for an appeal to be considered. But there is always a body with
ultimate jurisdiction. In this particular case, it is the Collegio. If
any appeal is to be made, it should be made to them to explain and to seek
reconsideration.

> >Such a situation would allow non-practitioners to > set the terms of
> >the reconstruction of the Religio Romana, something > which many of
> >them regard either with indifference or hostility.
>
>CATO: Scaurus, where is the indifference or hostility? Point out to
>me a single post in which any citizen, practitioner or non-
>practitioner, has defamed the religio, belittled it, or tried to
>undermine it. Not specific practices, but the religio itself. No, I
>say: it is the very importance of the religio that makes these
>discussions occur.

Indifference may not do any of those things. And one would be rather
straining the meaning of "indifference" to presume that people would post
about their indifference. But I don't think that Scaurus is unreasonable
in concluding that many are probably relatively indifferent to the Religio,
personally. As such, they ought not be in a position of judging actions
which bear on the Religio.

> >Under > such >circumstances the very survival of the Religio is at
>
>the whim of > >those who regard it as an opportunity to score
>political points, as >has > been the case in much of the non-
>practitioner commentary on >the recent > decretum, or those who would
>rather see it disappear to >the sidelines or > altogether from Nova
>Roma. Any decision of the >Collegium could be > overturned by those
>who have no fundamental >commitment to it whatsoever. > Some may say
>this is ahistorical. >It certainly is, for the Comitia > Populi
>Tributa of the Roman >Republic had but a handful of > non-
>practitioners of the Religio not >an overwhleming majority of them as
>
> > is the case today in Nova Roma. This ahistorical circumstances
> >requires > an ahistorical response. The idea that individuals who
> >practise the > very faith which destroyed the Religio in antiquity
> >should have a say in > its reconstruction is an abomination to
> >practitioners.
>
>CATO: I cannot imagine that you would be describing non-Roman
>paganism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Jainism, or
>Animism. So it must be Christianity. You mention above that there
>is "hostility" to the religio; I consider this remark blatant
>hostility to Christianity.

I'd have to assume... since I can't follow that... that there must have
been a wave of a wand and the word "presto!" muttered to get to that. It
reminds me of the assumption common in the USA these days that asking that
crosses not be displayed in public (secular) buildings is proof of
hostility to Christianity. The truth is that no religious symbols should
be there, of any faith, nor any symbol of active disbelief. (Of course,
Nova Roma's situation is quite different).

I have no hostility to Christianity, per se. But the suggestion that
Christians (among others), should be in a position to judge whether the
Novaroman pontifices ought to be overruled about who may, or should be, or
may continue to be a sacerdos is... well... rather a mind-boggling
thing. Can you imagine the Catholic Church responding to a directive from
the state of California, as confirmed by a referendum of the electorate,
that a defrocked priest should be reinstated, or even just retried?

Valete,
Marcus Umbrius Ursus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24433 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: To The Daughters of Modia
---Salve Modius:

Please do not read more into things than what is written:

I don't think, generally speaking, that people wish to be referred to
as 'someone else'. You have another filias, and she is not the one I
was referring to... I answered Flavia,the girl I thought was in fact a
Modia and is not, in a subsequent letter under the same thread...It
was a reply. Personal attacks are against list guidelines. I am free
to address another's ideas and thinking, still, I believe.





Head shaking,
Po


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Po:
>
> So once you realized she wasn't a part of Gens Modia you decided to
stop your "attack?"
>
> Its seems rather obvious your intent to attack the members of Gens
Modia. Frankly, I find your actions pathetic. If you want to attack
me, then attack me. But don't attack me through the members of my Gens.
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 6/2/2004 9:55:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y... writes:
>
> > Pompeia: Actually, with respect it was, and I mistakenly
> > confused you
> > for a Modia. My apologies, and thank you for your response.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24434 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Senate voting results
Salvete Quirites!

I thank the whole Senate for the confidence he has just placed in me.

Gallia's problems will be examined (and solved) with method, energy
and constancy; besides, we already started, and the first signs of
our action will be visible as from the next week.

I also promise to publishing regularly on this list and on the site
of the Province the progress report of our work.

Under the benevolent glances of Di Immortales, I have no doubt we
will restore the prosperity of this Province. This is my goal.

Valete !

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Provinciae Galliae Propraetor

==============================================================
Salvete Quirites!

Je remercie le Sénat tout entier pour la confiance qu'il vient de
placer en moi.

Les problèmes de gallia seront examinés (et résolus) avec méthode,
énergie et constance; d'ailleurs, nous avons déjà commencé et les
premiers signes de notre action seront visibles dès la semaine
prochaine.

Je m'engage aussi à publier régulièrement sur cette liste et sur le
site de la Province l'état d'avancement de nos travaux.

Sous les regards bienveillants de nos Di Immortales, je n'ai aucun
doute que nous parviendrons à restaurer la prospérité de cette
Province. Tel est mon but.

Valete !

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24435 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Senate voting results
Salve Illustrus Propraetor Minervalis,
congratulations for your appointment.
Provincia Gallia should be one of themost important source for Nova
Roma and we need it string and populous. I wish you good luck and as
former Propraetor Provinciae Italiae I offer my full help and
collaboration. Contact me privatly if you need.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senator


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Rutilius Minervalis"
<pjtuloup@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> I thank the whole Senate for the confidence he has just placed in
me.
>
> Gallia's problems will be examined (and solved) with method,
energy
> and constancy; besides, we already started, and the first signs
of
> our action will be visible as from the next week.
>
> I also promise to publishing regularly on this list and on the
site
> of the Province the progress report of our work.
>
> Under the benevolent glances of Di Immortales, I have no doubt we
> will restore the prosperity of this Province. This is my goal.
>
> Valete !
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
> Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
>
> ==============================================================
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> Je remercie le Sénat tout entier pour la confiance qu'il vient de
> placer en moi.
>
> Les problèmes de gallia seront examinés (et résolus) avec méthode,
> énergie et constance; d'ailleurs, nous avons déjà commencé et les
> premiers signes de notre action seront visibles dès la semaine
> prochaine.
>
> Je m'engage aussi à publier régulièrement sur cette liste et sur
le
> site de la Province l'état d'avancement de nos travaux.
>
> Sous les regards bienveillants de nos Di Immortales, je n'ai aucun
> doute que nous parviendrons à restaurer la prospérité de cette
> Province. Tel est mon but.
>
> Valete !
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
> Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24436 From: FAC Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Senate voting results
Salve Illustrus Propraetor Minervalis,
congratulations for your appointment.
Provincia Gallia should be one of the most important source for Nova
Roma and we need it strong and populous. I wish you good luck and as
former Propraetor Provinciae Italiae I offer my full help and
collaboration. Contact me privatly if you need.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senator


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Rutilius Minervalis"
<pjtuloup@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> I thank the whole Senate for the confidence he has just placed in
me.
>
> Gallia's problems will be examined (and solved) with method,
energy
> and constancy; besides, we already started, and the first signs
of
> our action will be visible as from the next week.
>
> I also promise to publishing regularly on this list and on the
site
> of the Province the progress report of our work.
>
> Under the benevolent glances of Di Immortales, I have no doubt we
> will restore the prosperity of this Province. This is my goal.
>
> Valete !
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
> Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
>
> ==============================================================
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> Je remercie le Sénat tout entier pour la confiance qu'il vient de
> placer en moi.
>
> Les problèmes de gallia seront examinés (et résolus) avec méthode,
> énergie et constance; d'ailleurs, nous avons déjà commencé et les
> premiers signes de notre action seront visibles dès la semaine
> prochaine.
>
> Je m'engage aussi à publier régulièrement sur cette liste et sur
le
> site de la Province l'état d'avancement de nos travaux.
>
> Sous les regards bienveillants de nos Di Immortales, je n'ai aucun
> doute que nous parviendrons à restaurer la prospérité de cette
> Province. Tel est mon but.
>
> Valete !
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
> Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24437 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
*LOL*

My my, a whole single scene drama with myself as the lead baddy charachter,
what
a honor :)

To be fair, tho, I think the EVIL OLD MEN IN TURBAN should be given at least a
few lines more, just to make them a valid counterpart to the white knights.

Like, before exiting, they could turn to the Knights saying things like:

EVIL OLD MAN IN TURBAN 1 - "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty
headed animal food trough wiper!"

EVIL OLD MAN IN TURBAN 2 - "I fart in your general directions, In your
general directions I fart, I -in your general directions- fart ..."

EVIL OLD MAN IN TURBAN 3 - "Now go away before we taunt you a second time. We
were here first"

and of course, always look at the bright side of life...

DCF
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis
Curator of the Codex Juris Novae Romae Constantini


Scrive Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...>:

> Codswallop. This list has now degenerated into pure, unadulterated
> codswallop. I have sat back (for once) and watched how this debate
> has evolved. I see now that we are in the midst of a good old-
> fashioned English village drama society presentation.
>
> etc etc
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24438 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: The Senate Meeting for May 2757
Salvete Omnes,

Congratulations to all anewly appointed propraetors.

> IV. Approval of Gaia Fabia Livia as Propraetor of
> Britannia.

My warmest congratulations especially to Gaia Fabia
Livia. I'm positive you will do a fantastic job for
our provincia. Britannia is in safe hands.

Again, congratulations.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.





____________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24439 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caesar S.D.

salve, Iulius!

LOL. But where's the sherry? If I'm going to do all that
gallivanting around, riding a hobby horse and waving a sword (even a
paper-mache one), I think it only right that there be a smoke-filled,
dark-wood-panelled Library in which I can get some sherry.

KNIT EXITS, STAGE RIGHT, GRUMBLING.

vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24440 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Senate voting results
Salve!

My warmest congratulations to Lucius Rutilius Minervalis on his appointment as Provincial Governor
of Gallia! My thanks to the Senate for appointing him.

Vale,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24441 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Oath of Office
Salvete Omnes:

In accordance with the Lex Iunia de Iusiurando as amended by the Lex
Cassia Iunia de Iusiurando, I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis, take the
following oath in the public forum of Nova-Roma:

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the People and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-
Jean Tuloup), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
private life.

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), swear to uphold
and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup) swear to protect
and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Provinciae Galliae Propraetor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Provinciae Galliae Propraetor and all
the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.

In the province of Gallia, June3d, year 2004 of present Era, in the
consulship of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus.

======================================================================

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup) hac re ipsa
decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro Populo Senatuque Novae
Romae acturum esse sollemniter iuro.

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup) officio
Proviciae Galliae Propraetor accepto, Deos Deasque Romae in omnibus
meae vitae publicae temporibus me culturum, et Virtutes Romanas
publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse iuro.

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup) Religioni
Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum
publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat iuro.

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup) officiis muneris
Provinciae Gallaie Propraetor me quam optime functurum esse praeterea
iuro.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram Deis Deabusque populi romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus
accipio.

Galliae, a.d. III Nonas Iun., anno MMDCCLVII ab Urbe condita, Gnaeo
Salice Asture et Gnaeo Equitio Marino consulibus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24442 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: I´m mostly sad
Salve,
L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis,


I´m mostly sad.

It seems the Tribunes were more attacked asking for appealing to Concordia than threatening to Veto and Comitia.

Indeed, softness is a sharp weapon. Seems that some don´t desire peace, but war and partisantism. (I want far distance from all parties!)

It is worst than the wraith of Achilles.

Neither the words of three sacrosaint tribunes, neither the words of the priestess of Magna Mater, excellent Iulia Volpisca, neither the assurance of Fabia Vera has demoved these men...

Pride is the worst consultant.

I still dont understand why so many hate on the hearts. I have seen many arguments, They are childish when compared to the benefits of forgiveness and clemens, true roman virtues. Nova Roma would awaken stronger, and reputations less damaged.

I fear by the future of the Religio. The Religio must conquer by the hearts, not by the laws. The subject was poor handled since the beggining, now a Pirros´ victory was won.

You can attack me as your desire. I´m Tribune, I don´t fear words. I was elected and I´m protect by the own Religio to counsel you the thing on the best of my hability.

It is mostly sad.

Vale bene in pacem deorum (if they still desire peace with us.)
L. Arminius Faustus TRP









---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24443 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
Fuscus

Actually if there was no "baddy" in that single scene farce. That
was the whole point. It was a farce - not a drama. Sadly since you
jumped to the conclusion that you were the "baddy" speaks volumes
for why this drivel has continued as long as it has. It is a
persecution complex in full rampage.

There is however a victim. Nova Roma - and its reputation as a
serious vehicle for reconstruction. It has become a soap box for
anyone with access to a keyboard and an axe to grind.

Truly this place is now the residence of Python like characters.

Going to bed to reflect on why I wasted money joining this tawdry
community.

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24444 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: Codswallop
This gets even more amazing. I hadn't even considered this as you
Cato. I was attempting to draw together general threads running
throughout the last week or is it weeks? Now everyone wants a part
in this farce <sigh>.

Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caesar S.D.
>
> salve, Iulius!
>
> LOL. But where's the sherry? If I'm going to do all that
> gallivanting around, riding a hobby horse and waving a sword (even
a
> paper-mache one), I think it only right that there be a smoke-
filled,
> dark-wood-panelled Library in which I can get some sherry.
>
> KNIT EXITS, STAGE RIGHT, GRUMBLING.
>
> vale bene,
>
> Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24445 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-03
Subject: Re: I´m mostly sad
Tribune,

It is YOU, and others who are disturbing Concordia by attempting to
foist an unsuitable priest on the Collegium.

Pietas means following a duty, even it it is an unpleasnt one, and the
Collegium has a duty to protect the intrests of the Religio Romana.

I Have seen many people toss around the word "Orthopraxy" without
understanding it's full application to this matter. It is derived from
the Greek for "Correct Action". The Religio Romana is a religion of
Orthopraxy rather than Orthodoxy (Correct belief). It's concern is
that the CORRECT rituals be performed at the CORRECT times, and that
they be done CORRECTLY.

WE had a person who publicly challenged the Collegium on determining
what the CORRECT rituals were, and who publicly stated that she would
do it her way even if the Collegium determined that her way was
incorrect. That is an attack on the Orthopraxy that is at the heart of
the Religio, and an Impius attitude, of doing what you wish rather
than following your duty.

The Religio doesn't insist on Orthodoxy. You are free to beleave that
the Gods are Numenious beings, Anthropomorphic beings, or metaphors
for the forces of nature. It is even possible to be a Monotheist and
beleave that all of the Gods are aspects of a single devine being. You
can beleave or not beleave in an afterlife, you can beleave what you
wish about the nature of an afterlife if you beleave in one. None of
this affects your status as a practitioner of the Religio.

That status is determined by Orthopraxy, of correct Ritual.
"Incorrect" belief is not a "sin" in the Religio Romana, deliberately
performing a ritual incorrectly is. I Have no concern with Orthodoxy
unless it affects Orthopraxy, that is in a person's private beleif
system resulting in them performing official rituals incorrectly.
Allowing that would be an impius act on my part, and on the part of
the Collegium.

You are demanding that the Collegium perform an impius act, that it
ignore it's duties to follow modern ideas of political correctness.
That is something that we can't do. Concordia dosen't demand that the
Collegium abbandon the core beliefs regarding Otrhopraxy. She does
demand that people stop political agitation intended to force the
Collegium into comitting an impius act.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
> L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis,
>
>
> I´m mostly sad.
>
> It seems the Tribunes were more attacked asking for appealing to
Concordia than threatening to Veto and Comitia.
>
> Indeed, softness is a sharp weapon. Seems that some don´t desire
peace, but war and partisantism. (I want far distance from all parties!)
>
> It is worst than the wraith of Achilles.
>
> Neither the words of three sacrosaint tribunes, neither the words of
the priestess of Magna Mater, excellent Iulia Volpisca, neither the
assurance of Fabia Vera has demoved these men...
>
> Pride is the worst consultant.
>
> I still dont understand why so many hate on the hearts. I have seen
many arguments, They are childish when compared to the benefits of
forgiveness and clemens, true roman virtues. Nova Roma would awaken
stronger, and reputations less damaged.
>
> I fear by the future of the Religio. The Religio must conquer by the
hearts, not by the laws. The subject was poor handled since the
beggining, now a Pirros´ victory was won.
>
> You can attack me as your desire. I´m Tribune, I don´t fear words. I
was elected and I´m protect by the own Religio to counsel you the
thing on the best of my hability.
>
> It is mostly sad.
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum (if they still desire peace with us.)
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Clique aqui!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]