Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Jun 17-20, 2004

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24795 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24796 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: Censor Suffectus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24797 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24798 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24799 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24800 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24801 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24802 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24803 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24804 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24805 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24806 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24807 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24808 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Cursus Honorum and nec plus ultra
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24809 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24810 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24811 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24812 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24813 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Convened - 1st Revision
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24814 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24815 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24816 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24817 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24818 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Digest Number 1348
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24819 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24820 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24821 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24822 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24823 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24824 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24825 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24826 From: Pompeianus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24827 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24828 From: Pat Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Fwd: [Nova-Roma] That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24829 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24830 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24831 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24832 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24833 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24834 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24835 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24836 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: ante diem XIV Kalendae Quinctilis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24837 From: athanasiosofspfd Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: On Vacation
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24838 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24839 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24840 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24841 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24842 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24843 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24844 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24845 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24846 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24847 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24848 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24849 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24850 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24851 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24852 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24853 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24854 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24855 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24857 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24858 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24859 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24861 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24862 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24865 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: About the "Your Website" message
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24866 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: About the "Your Website" message
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24867 From: John Michael Keba Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24868 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24869 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24870 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24871 From: John Michael Keba Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24872 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24873 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24874 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24875 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24876 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24877 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24878 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: National Gathering
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24879 From: lori bannick Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24880 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: In Boston tommorow
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24881 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Webcams and AIM (was RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24882 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: An idea for reforming the Censorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24883 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24884 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24885 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24886 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24887 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: National Gathering
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24888 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24889 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: What is Nova Roma?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24890 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: National Gathering
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24891 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24892 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24893 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24894 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Webcams and AIM (was RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24895 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Constitution, the Mos Maiorum, and green M&M's
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24896 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24897 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24898 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24899 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: New file uploaded to Nova-Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24900 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24901 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24902 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Fw: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24903 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24904 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24905 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24906 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24907 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24908 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24909 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24910 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24911 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24912 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Voting in the Comitia Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24913 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24914 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24915 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24916 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24917 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24918 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24919 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24920 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24921 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24922 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24923 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24924 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24925 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: dido
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24926 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24927 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24928 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Response & Apology to A. Apollonius Cordus from F. Galerius Aurelia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24929 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24930 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24931 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24932 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24933 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24934 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Convened - 2nd Revision
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24935 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24936 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Market Day Chats
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24937 From: Scriboni89@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Market Day Chats
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24938 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Market Day Chats
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24939 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Market Day Chats
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24940 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24941 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Candidacy for Censor Suffectus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24942 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: "Citizen Kits"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24943 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Stinking fish (was: Re: The Strawman Argument.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24944 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: "Citizen Kits"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24945 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24946 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24947 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24948 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24949 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Pleasant conversations with Caeso Fabius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24950 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24951 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24952 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24953 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24954 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Fw: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24955 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24956 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24957 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24958 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24959 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: ante diem XII Kalendae Quinctilis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24960 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24961 From: ravenwynterwonder Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: happy fathers day wishes
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24962 From: lori bannick Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24963 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24964 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24965 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: CALL - The Comitia Populi and Comitia Plebis are called to vote!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24966 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24967 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24968 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24969 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24970 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24971 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24972 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Censor Suffectus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24973 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Stinking fish (was: Re: The Strawman Argument.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24974 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Stinking fish (was: Re: The Strawman Argument.)



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24795 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

>SINCE NR HAS ALREADY "ADAPTED" THE "MOS MAIORUM" IN MANY WAYS (i.e.,
>women's rights, slavery, use of English rather than Latin, etc.) TO
>THE 28th CENTURY, WHO DECIDES HOW IT IS TO BE ADAPTED IN THE FUTURE,
>AND BY WHAT MECHANISM? <--- not shouting, only emphasizing
>

This is the single most powerful argument I have ever seen presented for
not yielding a single inch further in compromise with modernity. I have
always mistrusted the claims of the modernists that they were only
tweaking Roman principles around the edges to make Nova Roma possible in
the modern world. It is refreshing to see an open admission that the
intention is to strip the bones until the only resemblance the carcass
has to the original is the name. I don't mean this as an insult; I am
genuinely puzzled: if you wish to recreate so little of Roman antiquity
that everything is up for grabs, why even bother talking about being Roman?

Vale.

Scaurus


>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24796 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: Censor Suffectus
Salvete Modius et Omnes:

<<snippage for brevity, however honoured you were to receive it, the
text is indeed getting long >>>

You had mentioned a URL for a party in opposition to the Boni?? Really?
Well, Modi, "I" am also rather dismayed and in disagreement with the
Boni policies to date, and the general attacks on the religious
practises of others (even if that religion is the Religio,but not
exactly as the Boni interprets it) ..and I would like to know the URL
to this group, SVP.

Anyone know?? Or are we just referring to those who are not in
agreement with Boni policies and attitudes?



But 'do' indulge, Modius, in even more cheap attempts to belittle my
respect for others in any shape, including your incessant and 'subtle'
statements attacking my piety; these are rather redundant to the point
where they are meaningless...water off a duck's back. You are holier
than me. Ok...Whatever you say. Happy? In so doing you cheapen your
own piety, not mine, and you do so without any aid from me...or anyone
else.

Whatever you need to do when you can no longer debate the issues..you
invent another one, is that it, to wit, attacking others ability to be
virtuous??



In the absence of some marked attitude adjustment from you, or some
psychoneuro misfortune on my part I probably will not in future you to
an office; because I worry about your ability to be objective...you
are partisan... but you may think of yourself as you like.

Granted I will likely never 'achieve' the exclusiveness of
prerequisite that it takes to become a true Bonus, I guess...oh
well... :) Alas....the more I read posts by yourself and other Boni
members, the less worried I get about it, really ...if I was ever
terribly worried at all, :0

Indeed,I am just as worried about your personal approval anymore, as
I am about Gerry Falwell, or Jim and Tammy Fae Bakker's opinions of
me....more hardline, tighrope spiritualist, self-emulating religious
folk. A rose by any other name, in my view...Religio, Christian,
general Pagan..matters not...persons of this mindset always try to
claim a special license to somehow putting the divine in their back
pockets and spitting potshots at others. I knew you reminded me of
certain religious people, Modius, yes, its the hardline Christian
fundamentalists, yes.

Anyway, the URL to this 'other group' would be appreciated, from
anyone who might know it.

Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24797 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve,

Comments inserted below, responding to G. Iulius Scaurus' response:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> >SINCE NR HAS ALREADY "ADAPTED" THE "MOS MAIORUM" IN MANY WAYS
(i.e.,
> >women's rights, slavery, use of English rather than Latin, etc.)
TO
> >THE 28th CENTURY, WHO DECIDES HOW IT IS TO BE ADAPTED IN THE
FUTURE,
> >AND BY WHAT MECHANISM? <--- not shouting, only emphasizing
> >
>
> This is the single most powerful argument I have ever seen
presented for
> not yielding a single inch further in compromise with modernity. I
have
> always mistrusted the claims of the modernists that they were only
> tweaking Roman principles around the edges to make Nova Roma
possible in
> the modern world.

AOI: This is most disturbing. Do you contend that NR should not have
adapted to include women as speaking members? I can't believe you
would disagree with slavery being abolished. And if you are
contending that latin should be our single language, it might very
well be only you who is posting to yourself at any real level. While
many have spent considerable time gaining some knowledge of latin,
how many of them would have stayed that long if they weren't
permitted to speak until they did. That too seems rather illogical.
As you put it, yielding to modernity, is what makes NR possible. How
does it engender distrust to include the other 50% of the world in
NR? How does it engender distrust to choose as our primary language
of day-to-day communication the language almost all NR citizens have
in common?


It is refreshing to see an open admission that the
> intention is to strip the bones until the only resemblance the
carcass
> has to the original is the name. I don't mean this as an insult;
I am
> genuinely puzzled: if you wish to recreate so little of Roman
antiquity
> that everything is up for grabs, why even bother talking about
being Roman?

AOI: Adaptation isn't bad or evil or a flesh-stripping disease, it
is necessary to make NR viable today. After all, you are using a
computer to hack away at any advance from RA, something of an irony.
I saw no admission to strip bones or recreate a Disney version of
RA. However, I, for one, can't see the merit of recreating every
single thing from RA and deny any advance made since then. Do you
not think the people of RA, had the state remained intact, would
have evolved? Do you think that should it have lasted until this
very day they would have been using toilets in the public square
with sponges on a stick rather than private toilets and toilet
paper? Would they deny the use of central air and heating in new
buildings and live with braziers? Would they have continued to dress
as they did and deny the use of cotton or man-made fabrics? Do you
think all these little cosmetic changes I've used as examples
wouldn't be only surface indicators of the changes throughout their
entire system of family, public and religious lives? No, I don't
think they would leave themselves flailing about in a BCE world
while the rest of us advanced into the computer age and beyond. They
were a pragmatic people, not living only in an untenable fantasy
world.

I, for one, have not read anywhere that we are re-creating RA like
one of those tableau scenes in the museum depicting ancient life:
still, unbending, attractive to gawkers and in no way alive. We are
instead reviving what is gone and making it live again...but in this
world, not theirs. The moment of conception for NR happened using
tools that those of RA couldn't have imagined.

Whether we are speaking of the RR or the Mos or any other aspect of
NR, from food to Vestals, we are talking about a revival that must
acknowledge the passage of time. If we do not, we are creating
nothing that will continue as living or serious, we will become yet
another recreationist group. Rent the documentary, "In Service to
the Dream" and you'll see what I mean.

There is a great deal more to being a "Roman" in the context of NR
than pretending we live in a small instance of time and are blind to
everything that doesn't fall in that time. One method makes one
attentive to virtues most don't conceive in their daily lives,
active in the pursuit of creating a legacy of duty to others, to the
virtues, to accountability and individual merit and for some, the
religio, that can be passed again to further generations. One method
creates a narrow and entirely static copy that pales in comparison
to the original and yet fits in no way with the state of humanity in
this age and can't adapt to further generations.

My response is long in comparison to your short paragraph, and I do
apologize for the length.

>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24798 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Cassius Calvus, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> > It's always healthy to have one's axioms
> challenged,
> > so I hope you won't mind me challenging yours:
> Nova
> > Roma doesn't need at least one functioning censor
> at
> > all times.
>
> Actually it does because the Constitution states
> that the Censors
> are the Secretaries of Nova Roma, Inc, the
> non-profit. Therefore we
> must have at least one functioning Censor at all
> times. The rest of
> your posting, while I don't disagree with it in
> essence would
> require a Constitutional Amendment to change the
> Censors from being
> Secretaries of the Corporation to another role.
> Still Nova Roma
> must have at least one Secretary of the Corporation
> to deal with all
> the hassles of paperwork that the Censors currently
> deal with no
> matter what that person(s) Roman title might be.

Over the course of your paragraph you seem to have
come round to the opposite position to the one you
started from, and therefore I entirely agree with you.
There is no reason at all for the censors, rather than
someone else, to be secretaries of the corporation,
and so the fact that the corporation needs a secretary
doesn't mean that the nation needs a censor all the
time. The need for a constitutional amendment is, of
course, not a good reason not to do it.

Indeed, I don't know how much work the censors are
required to do in their capacity as secretaries of the
corporation. Perhaps it would be possible to leave
them as such, and simply regard their secretariat as
continuing for a period of five years, though their
term of political office would last only one and a
half. But it would probably be better to fill the
secretariat with someone else.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24799 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator and Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> Actually the concept that a Censor's primary duty
> was preserving
> public morals is a modern concept.

Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the lustrum
was all about?





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24800 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
Q. Caecilius Metellus A. Apollonio Cordo et Q. Cassio Calvo Omninusque sal.

Salvete Omnes,

> But it would probably be better to fill the
> secretariat with someone else.

While I certainly agree with everything Cordus says, I have to ask that one question: Who is, or what will be, that someone else?

Valete,

Q. Caec. Met. Post.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24801 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.D.

salve, Scaurus.

Wow. I'm just a little confused as to whether or not you read the
post from which you took this quote in its entirety...


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> >SINCE NR HAS ALREADY "ADAPTED" THE "MOS MAIORUM" IN MANY WAYS
(i.e.,
> >women's rights, slavery, use of English rather than Latin, etc.)
TO
> >THE 28th CENTURY, WHO DECIDES HOW IT IS TO BE ADAPTED IN THE
FUTURE,
> >AND BY WHAT MECHANISM? <--- not shouting, only emphasizing
> >
>
> This is the single most powerful argument I have ever seen
presented for
> not yielding a single inch further in compromise with modernity.

CATO: Scaurus, would you please list those inches with which you
have already surrendered the glory of Rome? If it has to do with the
animal sacrifice compromise decree, or the existence of the
Constitution, or the enfranchisement of women and non-landholders,
and citizens being "placed" into gentes rather than *born* into them,
or the grudging allowance of non-practitioners as citizens, or the
use of modern technology to create and sustain this very micronation,
then you do, indeed have a very serious handicap; and a long and
difficult (if not impossible) road to recovery. These things are
either by necessity or by the will of the people; they are a part of
the mos maiorum *as we practice it*. Perhaps it is not a mos with
which you are comfortable, but unfortunately, as I have been told
over and over again, we in NR are also bound by the modern laws and
conventions that exist in the macronations around us, as there is no
intent to actually form a country.


I have
> always mistrusted the claims of the modernists that they were only
> tweaking Roman principles around the edges to make Nova Roma
possible in
> the modern world. It is refreshing to see an open admission that
the
> intention is to strip the bones until the only resemblance the
carcass
> has to the original is the name.

CATO: I said absolutely no such thing. I said nothing that even
vaguely resembles this outlandish charge in any way shape or form. To
have extrapolated such misinformation from what I said is dangerously
close to fear-mongering. I am surprised and somewhat wounded that
you could misinterpret what I said plainly and clearly.


I don't mean this as an insult; I am
> genuinely puzzled: if you wish to recreate so little of Roman
antiquity
> that everything is up for grabs, why even bother talking about
being Roman?

CATO: I don't want to think of it as an insult, Scaurus, but you
have not even come close to grasping the faintest glimpse of what I
was speaking of in the post regarding the mos and the Constitution.
Not even by the most exaggerated stretch of the imagination could you
possibly have misunderstood what I said.

What, exactly, do you perceive as recreating Roman antiquity? I ask
you point-blank to describe exactly what you want Nova Roma to be, in
daily life, among the citizens that exist right now in the 28th
century, across the globe. Would we ride horses or walk to meet each
other? Would we send messengers to converse by post? Would we spin
our own yarn and weave our own clothes? Where do *you*, Scaurus,
draw the line between what is an acceptable assimilation into the
modern world and what is not? You have taken great pains to deride
any other vision of Nova Roma than your own, yet I have not heard you
explain the simple basics of how you see Nova Roma co-existing with a
technologically- and politically- and socially-advanced world.

I want you to tell me --- WHAT DO YOU WANT NOVA ROMA TO BE?

>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

vale,

Cato
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24802 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
A. Apollonius Cordus to Annia Octavia Indagatrix, and
to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> > This is the single most powerful argument I have
> ever seen
> presented for
> > not yielding a single inch further in compromise
> with modernity. I
> have
> > always mistrusted the claims of the modernists
> that they were only
> > tweaking Roman principles around the edges to make
> Nova Roma
> possible in
> > the modern world.
>
> AOI: This is most disturbing. Do you contend that NR
> should not have
> adapted to include women as speaking members? I
> can't believe you
> would disagree with slavery being abolished....

In the interest of constructive discussion, I must
point out that you have misread Iulius Scaurus' words.
He talks about "not yielding an inch further in
compromise with modernity" - not of reversing the
compromises we have already made. And notice that he
does not in fact even say that we ought not to yield
an inch further; he simply says that there is a strong
argument for that position.

If he does, in fact, believe that we ought not to
yield another inch, then I, like you, disagree with
him; but let us not jump to a later stage of the
discussion. Iulius Scaurus hasn't put forward an
argument, so there is nothing for you or me to try to
disprove. Rather, he has made a criticism of Cato's
position. The question at hand is whether Cato's
position is sound, not whether Scaurus' position is.

And I am inclined to agree that Cato's position is
untenable. He seems to argue that since the mos
maiorum has already been altered, there is no reason
not to adapt it further. But surely there is some
reason not to adapt it further, for otherwise why
would we have adopted it in the first place? To put it
another way: if there is no reason not to alter the
mos maiorum, then surely there is no reason not to
dispose of it altogether? We are all here, presumably,
because we consider that the foundations of Roman
civilisation were good and solid foundations. We think
the Romans got many things right. If so, then surely
we must assume that they got everything right unless
we find good reason to think otherwise? Now, Scaurus
may have stricter criteria than you or I have for a
good reason to think otherwise; but we all agree, I
think, that the burden of proof is not on the mos
maiorum but on those who propose to depart from it. I
hope that Cato agrees too, but his remarks do not give
that impression.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24803 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato A. Appollonio Cordo S.D.


salve Appollonius.

>
> And I am inclined to agree that Cato's position is
> untenable. He seems to argue that since the mos
> maiorum has already been altered, there is no reason
> not to adapt it further. But surely there is some
> reason not to adapt it further, for otherwise why
> would we have adopted it in the first place? To put it
> another way: if there is no reason not to alter the
> mos maiorum, then surely there is no reason not to
> dispose of it altogether? We are all here, presumably,
> because we consider that the foundations of Roman
> civilisation were good and solid foundations. We think
> the Romans got many things right. If so, then surely
> we must assume that they got everything right unless
> we find good reason to think otherwise? Now, Scaurus
> may have stricter criteria than you or I have for a
> good reason to think otherwise; but we all agree, I
> think, that the burden of proof is not on the mos
> maiorum but on those who propose to depart from it. I
> hope that Cato agrees too, but his remarks do not give
> that impression.

Appollonius, I think there is a misunderstanding about what exactly
the mos maiorum is. It is *not* a single prescribed set of
standards, actions, or beliefs. It is a constantly evolving,
syncretic amalgamation of the ways in which we view ourselves, our
society, and the rest of the world. If you re-read my posts (the
original one, and the replies to Caesar), I hope you can grasp my
uttermost respect for the idea of the mos; as Caesar said in a
response, it is not a question of "does the mos matter?" but "how do
we work within the understanding of what the mos is?" My main
concern is whether or not we understand the mos maiorum to be the mos
of *we who exist in NR now*, not just the mos maiorum which existed
in RA. Does this make sense?

vale,

Cato
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24804 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator and Pontiff L.
> Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> > Actually the concept that a Censor's primary duty
> > was preserving
> > public morals is a modern concept.
>
> Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the lustrum
> was all about?
>
Money and manpower for the legions.

It was about holding a Census so the state would know who had money,
and how much they had. It was about finding out how many men were
availble to fill the legions. It was about letting out contracts on
everything from road maintance to collecting taxes from the provinces.

Those were the primary duties of a Censor. The Public morality was
just one of the things a Censor could consider when updating the
Albums, and not all of them even considered then. Doing so was a
remarkable act worthy of comment, not just the usual business of the
Censor.

The primary reasons a Roman sought the office was it would enhance his
dignitas, and it would ensure that he recived plenty of golden
handshakes that would enhance his wealth.

A Willingness to accept these golden handshakes waould have been one
of the main things the Knights who dominated the Centuries would have
been looking for. One thing the voters would have avoided like the
plauge is a do-gooder intent on enforcing the public morality, or at
least the concepts that moderns think of when they talk about public
morals.

Talk of enforcing the public morals as the Censors primary duty is
like saying that the President of the United State's primary duty is
to ride around in Air Force One.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24805 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend Q. Caecilius
Metellus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> > But it would probably be better to fill the
> > secretariat with someone else.
>
> While I certainly agree with everything Cordus says,
> I have to ask that one question: Who is, or what
> will be, that someone else?

I don't know; I would be inclined to leave that
question until the more central features of the
overhaul of the censorship (if indeed there be one)
become clearer. We could perhaps ask ourselves whether
it is really useful for the corporation to have two
presidents, two vice-presidents, two secretaries, and
eight treasurers. Perhaps some of the quaestors could
be secretaries; or perhaps the senior consul could be
president, the junior consul vice-president, and the
praetors secretaries. It really depends on the
specific duties of these officers of the corporation
and which magistrates would be best suited to perform
them, and such things are not within my knowledge.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24806 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

I understand your view of the mos maiorum, but I don't
think it's a very helpful one. Yes, in its broadest
sense the mos maiorum could be defined as everything
any Roman ever did. In this sense it would also
include everything that we, the current generation of
Romans, do. But that's an extremely unhelpful
definition. The mos maiorum is the 'way of the elders'
- in other words, the customs of the current
generation are not part of the mos. Yes, it's true
that the things we do today may form part of the mos
maiorum of tomorrow, but the mos maiorum is not like a
self-updating computer. If I stand on my head now,
that doesn't make standing on one's head part of the
mos maiorum. If we all stand on our heads, and believe
that standing on our heads is an important part of our
Nova Roman culture, and teach our children that they
too must stand on their heads if they are to be proper
Romans, then we can start to consider headstands a
part of the mos maiorum.

So I do not agree that simply because something is
widely believed by Nova Romans it is therefore part of
the mos maiorum. We are not our own ancestors. When
Iunius Palladius minor is beginning his political
career, then, perhaps, things will be different; but
for now, for us, the mos maiorum is pretty much what
it was when Vergil was a boy.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24807 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Sicinius Drusus, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> > Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the
> lustrum
> > was all about?
> >
> Money and manpower for the legions.

Oh, good grief! Are you really a pontiff? The census
was an exercise in bureaucracy, yes, but the lustrum
was one of the most fundamental religious procedures
of the republic. It was the ritual purification of the
entire nation. The censors were not glorified
bureacrats, and I cannot for the life of me understand
why you are so intent on saying they were. They were
the men who were charged with ensuring the religious
and moral purity of the senate and the people.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24808 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Cursus Honorum and nec plus ultra
Salvete, Citizens,

L. Arminius Faustus, Tribunus, and his escort army from Calagurra (to
keep him safe on ML), says hello, and regret these awful times you
cannot say anything without be attacked.

The Cursus Honorum on Ancient was:

QUAESTOR -> PRAETOR -> CONSUL

And nec plus ultra!

When there created the plebeian sacrosainct bodies (because they
weren´t really magistratures), there was a paralell un-official
plebeian cursus:

Tribune of the Plebis - > Plebeian Aedile

But it was not linked to the old (and curule) cursus honorum, alas,
not a law, but a general rule which people used to chose candidates.

However, there was another third balance on cursus honorum

Curule Aedile --> Made Ludi --> Gained Votes

So, Sulla was aedile to get the good-will of population with games
and gather votes for his praetorship. Caesar did the same for the
consulship (See Plutarch, life of Sulla and Caesar). Scipio also (See
Livy). The Aedileship was a dead-end, but it was the magistrature you
gathered more votes for the next elections.

However, however, however, on ancient the only real legal steps were
quaestor, praetor, consul.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24809 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Salve,

Indeed. The Lustrum was the cerimony the gods of the city recognized
his worshippers, ie, the citizens. If the gods of the city doesn´t
recognized and accepted your worshipp, you are not citizen. The
citizenship on Ancient was a matter of Religio.

On all Ancient Cities (See Fustel de Coulanges) there was these kind
of rituals, Athens, Sparta, Megara...

That is why the colonies had shared citizenship. The fire and rituals
of the public lararium of the colony was derived from the one of
mother city, so having same gods, same citizenship (besides sinne
sufragium sometimes).

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Sicinius Drusus, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > > Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the
> > lustrum
> > > was all about?
> > >
> > Money and manpower for the legions.
>
> Oh, good grief! Are you really a pontiff? The census
> was an exercise in bureaucracy, yes, but the lustrum
> was one of the most fundamental religious procedures
> of the republic. It was the ritual purification of the
> entire nation. The censors were not glorified
> bureacrats, and I cannot for the life of me understand
> why you are so intent on saying they were. They were
> the men who were charged with ensuring the religious
> and moral purity of the senate and the people.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24810 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Sicinius Drusus, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > > Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the
> > lustrum
> > > was all about?
> > >
> > Money and manpower for the legions.
>
> Oh, good grief! Are you really a pontiff? The census
> was an exercise in bureaucracy, yes, but the lustrum
> was one of the most fundamental religious procedures
> of the republic. It was the ritual purification of the
> entire nation. The censors were not glorified
> bureacrats, and I cannot for the life of me understand
> why you are so intent on saying they were. They were
> the men who were charged with ensuring the religious
> and moral purity of the senate and the people.
>
The term "Lustrum" could refer to a religous ritual conducted by the
Censors. It was also used to refer to a 5 year period due to the
intreval between the Rituals, the term of a Censors office, a wild
beast's den, or a brothel, depending on the context.

Up to now the context was one of the Censor's term of office.

If we are discussing the Ritual, then are we going to make it a
requirement of the office that a Censor have no religous reasons not
to conduct this ritual at the end of the Census? If so then we are
talking about a ban on monotheists holding the postion.

Conducting a Ritual of purification is a far differnt thing than the
enforcement of the public morality. It is a single event that takes
part of one day in 5 years, not something that fits in with your
stance that the Censors clerical duties prevent them from following
theire "primary" purpose of maintaining the public morality.

That is an entirely modern concept of a Censor, not the one that
existed in Rome.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24811 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato A. Appollonio S.D.

salve, Appollonius.

I agree that our current generation cannot be included in the mos
maiorum; but we have had 1700 years since the end of the ancient Rome
of which we speak. Surely some of those nearly two thousand years'
experience can help shape and mold the mos maiorum as we understand
it today? Follwing is the generally accepted definition of "mos", and
by extension, "mos maiorum":

1. An established practice, custom, or usage.
2. (in generalized sense) the practices prevailing in a place, custom
(especially as a guide to action, often opposed to law). mos maiorum
("the custom of the ancestors"), inherited custom, tradition.
3. more (or moribus). In the customary or traditional way.
4. (usually plural) Habits (of a community, generation, etc.) in
respect of right and wrong, morals, etc.
5. (usually plural) Habitual conduct (of an individual or group),
character, disposition, ways. Also of a person's character as their
standard of conduct


Is it not reasonable to assume that in each and every one of these
ways, the past 1700 years has left an indelible mark on our psyches,
our understanding of what it is to be a community? To ignore this is
simply folly; it is not noble, or virtuous, or "genuine" or Roman.

Your example of headstanding is one I agree with entirely; just
because I stand on my head doesn't make it part of a generally
accepted cultural norm. This is not what I am suggesting. I am
asking whether or not it is concievable that we, as inheritors of the
glory of Rome, can also inherit their ability to evolve, adjust, and
syncretize? Are we only to emulate the parts of being a Roman that
suit our narrow vision of what we think NR "should" be, or are we
willing to take the bold steps that made Rome great in the first
place?

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> I understand your view of the mos maiorum, but I don't
> think it's a very helpful one. Yes, in its broadest
> sense the mos maiorum could be defined as everything
> any Roman ever did. In this sense it would also
> include everything that we, the current generation of
> Romans, do. But that's an extremely unhelpful
> definition. The mos maiorum is the 'way of the elders'
> - in other words, the customs of the current
> generation are not part of the mos. Yes, it's true
> that the things we do today may form part of the mos
> maiorum of tomorrow, but the mos maiorum is not like a
> self-updating computer. If I stand on my head now,
> that doesn't make standing on one's head part of the
> mos maiorum. If we all stand on our heads, and believe
> that standing on our heads is an important part of our
> Nova Roman culture, and teach our children that they
> too must stand on their heads if they are to be proper
> Romans, then we can start to consider headstands a
> part of the mos maiorum.
>
> So I do not agree that simply because something is
> widely believed by Nova Romans it is therefore part of
> the mos maiorum. We are not our own ancestors. When
> Iunius Palladius minor is beginning his political
> career, then, perhaps, things will be different; but
> for now, for us, the mos maiorum is pretty much what
> it was when Vergil was a boy.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24812 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
So, do we make conducting the lustrum ritual a requirement for holding
the Censor's office?

If we do then what about the Rituals that the Consuls are susposed to
perform? Do we also make the ability to perform the rites of the
Religio Romana a requirement to hold that office?

Do we apply this accross the boards and require that any magistrate be
able to conduct the rituals of the Religio Romana?

That is in effect a ban on Christians, Jews, and Muslims from holding
public office in Nova Roma. Is that what you wish?

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Indeed. The Lustrum was the cerimony the gods of the city recognized
> his worshippers, ie, the citizens. If the gods of the city doesn´t
> recognized and accepted your worshipp, you are not citizen. The
> citizenship on Ancient was a matter of Religio.
>
> On all Ancient Cities (See Fustel de Coulanges) there was these kind
> of rituals, Athens, Sparta, Megara...
>
> That is why the colonies had shared citizenship. The fire and rituals
> of the public lararium of the colony was derived from the one of
> mother city, so having same gods, same citizenship (besides sinne
> sufragium sometimes).
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Sicinius Drusus, and to all
> > citizens and peregrines, greetings.
> >
> > > > Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the
> > > lustrum
> > > > was all about?
> > > >
> > > Money and manpower for the legions.
> >
> > Oh, good grief! Are you really a pontiff? The census
> > was an exercise in bureaucracy, yes, but the lustrum
> > was one of the most fundamental religious procedures
> > of the republic. It was the ritual purification of the
> > entire nation. The censors were not glorified
> > bureacrats, and I cannot for the life of me understand
> > why you are so intent on saying they were. They were
> > the men who were charged with ensuring the religious
> > and moral purity of the senate and the people.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
> Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24813 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Convened - 1st Revision
Salvete Quirites,

Find below the text of the Comitia Call, modified with a corrected
calendar and slightly revised text for the Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinarii.

Still no other candidate for the office of Censor.


Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dixit

In accordance with our laws, pullarius Gaius Iulius Scaurus has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia
Centuriata. The augury being favorable, I now convene the Comitia
Centuriata for the purpose of electing a replacement for Censor Marcus
Octavius Germanicus, who has resigned; and to vote on a Constitutional
Amendment which will define conditions under which a missing magistrate
may be found to have vacated office.

Currently there is only one declared candidate to fill the vacancy,
though other candidates may declare over the course of the next several
days. If other candidates do declare I shall announce those names in a
revised posting of this convening order.

Candidate for Censor:

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, date of Citizenship: 1998/03/01


=== Begin Text of Proposed Constitutional Amendment ==============
Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinarii

Article IV of the Nova Roma Constitution is amended to
read as follows.

IV. Magistrates are the elected and appointed
officials responsible for the maintenance and conduct
of the affairs of state. There are two categories of
magistrates: those who are ordinarily elected, the
ordinarii; and those who are only occasionally
appointed or elected, the extraordinarii.
Qualifications necessary to hold these positions may
be enacted by law properly passed by one of the
comitia.

An office becomes vacant if the magistrate resigns or
dies. If a magistrate has not been in contact with the
Senate or the Censors for 60 days, and has not
previously notified the Senate and People that he will
need to be out of contact, the Censors may, having
tried and failed to contact him and having declared
their efforts publicly, declare the office vacant. If
an office becomes vacant and suitable candidates are
at hand, an election shall be held in the appropriate
comitia to elect a successor to serve out the
remainder of the term within forty-five days. Should
one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his
duties, as defined by the comitia that elected him,
that magistrate may be removed by a law originating in
the comitia that elected him.

The ordinarii, in decreasing order of authority, are
as follows:

=== End Text of Constitutional Amendment =============================


The Centuria Praerogativa, which shall vote first, will be the IX Century.

Schedule for the Contio and vote:

16 Iun (dies comitialis) Contio begins 21:00 Roma time
17 Iun (dies comitialis)
18 Iun (dies comitialis)
19 Iun (dies comitialis)
20 Iun (dies comitialis)
21 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
22 Iun (dies comitialis)
23 Iun (dies comitialis)
24 Iun (dies comitialis)
25 Iun (dies comitialis)
26 Iun (dies comitialis)
27 Iun (dies comitialis)
28 Iun (dies comitialis)
29 Iun (dies comitialis)
30 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting ends midnight (00:00) Roma time


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24814 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Salve,

"> That is in effect a ban on Christians, Jews, and Muslims from
holding > public office in Nova Roma. Is that what you wish?"

I just said a matter of History. I said nothing about Nova Roma.

I said about a cerimony of the Ancient Rome, and the Ancient
settlements overall (read ´The Ancient City´ of the historian Fustel
de Coulanges for more information. Pretty good book, I recomend
whenever I can)

Who decide what rituals shall be taken in NOVA Roma is the excellent
Collegium Pontificium, oh pontifex!



Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> So, do we make conducting the lustrum ritual a requirement for
holding
> the Censor's office?
>
> If we do then what about the Rituals that the Consuls are susposed
to
> perform? Do we also make the ability to perform the rites of the
> Religio Romana a requirement to hold that office?
>
> Do we apply this accross the boards and require that any magistrate
be
> able to conduct the rituals of the Religio Romana?
>
> That is in effect a ban on Christians, Jews, and Muslims from
holding
> public office in Nova Roma. Is that what you wish?
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Indeed. The Lustrum was the cerimony the gods of the city
recognized
> > his worshippers, ie, the citizens. If the gods of the city
doesn´t
> > recognized and accepted your worshipp, you are not citizen. The
> > citizenship on Ancient was a matter of Religio.
> >
> > On all Ancient Cities (See Fustel de Coulanges) there was these
kind
> > of rituals, Athens, Sparta, Megara...
> >
> > That is why the colonies had shared citizenship. The fire and
rituals
> > of the public lararium of the colony was derived from the one of
> > mother city, so having same gods, same citizenship (besides sinne
> > sufragium sometimes).
> >
> > Vale,
> > L. Arminius Faustus TRP
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> > <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > > A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Sicinius Drusus, and to all
> > > citizens and peregrines, greetings.
> > >
> > > > > Oh, come now, Pontiff: what do you think the
> > > > lustrum
> > > > > was all about?
> > > > >
> > > > Money and manpower for the legions.
> > >
> > > Oh, good grief! Are you really a pontiff? The census
> > > was an exercise in bureaucracy, yes, but the lustrum
> > > was one of the most fundamental religious procedures
> > > of the republic. It was the ritual purification of the
> > > entire nation. The censors were not glorified
> > > bureacrats, and I cannot for the life of me understand
> > > why you are so intent on saying they were. They were
> > > the men who were charged with ensuring the religious
> > > and moral purity of the senate and the people.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-
NEW
> > Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24815 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Cassius Calvus, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > > It's always healthy to have one's axioms
> > challenged,
> > > so I hope you won't mind me challenging yours:
> > Nova
> > > Roma doesn't need at least one functioning censor
> > at
> > > all times.
> >
> > Actually it does because the Constitution states
> > that the Censors
> > are the Secretaries of Nova Roma, Inc, the
> > non-profit. Therefore we
> > must have at least one functioning Censor at all
> > times. The rest of
> > your posting, while I don't disagree with it in
> > essence would
> > require a Constitutional Amendment to change the
> > Censors from being
> > Secretaries of the Corporation to another role.
> > Still Nova Roma
> > must have at least one Secretary of the Corporation
> > to deal with all
> > the hassles of paperwork that the Censors currently
> > deal with no
> > matter what that person(s) Roman title might be.
>
> Over the course of your paragraph you seem to have
> come round to the opposite position to the one you
> started from, and therefore I entirely agree with you.

Salve,

I wouldn't say I've "come around" or "flip-flopped" my position. I
merely stated that as things stand now it is neccessary to have a
functioning Censor's office otherwise a lot of neccessary work such
as processing citizenship applications, answering current and
prospective citizen's questions would come to a screeching halt.
This requires at least one functioning Censor. If for some reason
we (God forbid) lost both Censors at the same time it is possible
for the Consul's to issue an emergency edict ordering the scribes of
those Censors to remain on the job and continue to perform their
duties until an election is held to replace both Censors.

That doesn't mean that a Constitutional amendment couldn't be passed
to change the Censor's job description to something else. Just as
things stand it would be neccessary to have a constitutional
amendment to redefine the duties of the Censor's office and the
administrative duties such as processing citizenship applications
and so on be transfered to a Vigintisexviri positions akin to the
Rogator's role in elections or some other way of keeping the all the
paperwork balls in the air. However I hold reservations about such
a plan on the grounds that experienced supervision that would be
lacking.

I have no problem with making the neccessary changes to the Censor's
job description as defined in the Consitution to be more in line
with the historical position of Censor. I just think it needs to be
well thought out and all the ramifications of reassigning current
duties be discussed. It is always better to measure twice and cut
once rather than the other way around.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24816 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
There are many things that are established practices among the Hindus,
the Chinese, and the Muslims. Should we blindly accept them as part of
Nova Roma?

No we shouldn't, because they have nothing to do with Rome. The same
is true of customs that developed over the past 1700 years. They are
as meaningless in a Roman context as discussions of Astrophysics would
be in a forum devoted poetry.

The purpose of this organization is Roma. Any time we stray away from
Roma we are drifting away from the whole reason the organization
exists. Every little change away from Roman practice makes Nova Roma a
little more pointless.

Changes from the Roman way of doing things should never be the first
option, they should only be the last resort when it is found that we
can't make Roman practices work at this time.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato A. Appollonio S.D.
>
> salve, Appollonius.
>
> I agree that our current generation cannot be included in the mos
> maiorum; but we have had 1700 years since the end of the ancient Rome
> of which we speak. Surely some of those nearly two thousand years'
> experience can help shape and mold the mos maiorum as we understand
> it today? Follwing is the generally accepted definition of "mos", and
> by extension, "mos maiorum":
>
> 1. An established practice, custom, or usage.
> 2. (in generalized sense) the practices prevailing in a place, custom
> (especially as a guide to action, often opposed to law). mos maiorum
> ("the custom of the ancestors"), inherited custom, tradition.
> 3. more (or moribus). In the customary or traditional way.
> 4. (usually plural) Habits (of a community, generation, etc.) in
> respect of right and wrong, morals, etc.
> 5. (usually plural) Habitual conduct (of an individual or group),
> character, disposition, ways. Also of a person's character as their
> standard of conduct
>
>
> Is it not reasonable to assume that in each and every one of these
> ways, the past 1700 years has left an indelible mark on our psyches,
> our understanding of what it is to be a community? To ignore this is
> simply folly; it is not noble, or virtuous, or "genuine" or Roman.
>
> Your example of headstanding is one I agree with entirely; just
> because I stand on my head doesn't make it part of a generally
> accepted cultural norm. This is not what I am suggesting. I am
> asking whether or not it is concievable that we, as inheritors of the
> glory of Rome, can also inherit their ability to evolve, adjust, and
> syncretize? Are we only to emulate the parts of being a Roman that
> suit our narrow vision of what we think NR "should" be, or are we
> willing to take the bold steps that made Rome great in the first
> place?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
> > citizens and peregrines, greetings.
> >
> > I understand your view of the mos maiorum, but I don't
> > think it's a very helpful one. Yes, in its broadest
> > sense the mos maiorum could be defined as everything
> > any Roman ever did. In this sense it would also
> > include everything that we, the current generation of
> > Romans, do. But that's an extremely unhelpful
> > definition. The mos maiorum is the 'way of the elders'
> > - in other words, the customs of the current
> > generation are not part of the mos. Yes, it's true
> > that the things we do today may form part of the mos
> > maiorum of tomorrow, but the mos maiorum is not like a
> > self-updating computer. If I stand on my head now,
> > that doesn't make standing on one's head part of the
> > mos maiorum. If we all stand on our heads, and believe
> > that standing on our heads is an important part of our
> > Nova Roman culture, and teach our children that they
> > too must stand on their heads if they are to be proper
> > Romans, then we can start to consider headstands a
> > part of the mos maiorum.
> >
> > So I do not agree that simply because something is
> > widely believed by Nova Romans it is therefore part of
> > the mos maiorum. We are not our own ancestors. When
> > Iunius Palladius minor is beginning his political
> > career, then, perhaps, things will be different; but
> > for now, for us, the mos maiorum is pretty much what
> > it was when Vergil was a boy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
> Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24817 From: Fortunatus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Salvete Luci Sicini omnesque

> So, do we make conducting the lustrum ritual a requirement for holding
> the Censor's office?

Of course. The rite ought to be performed.

> That is in effect a ban on Christians, Jews, and Muslims from holding
> public office in Nova Roma. Is that what you wish?

It's established practice for magistrates who, for whatever reason, can
or will not perform a given rite may appoint a practitioner of the
Religio Romana to perform the rite in their stead. M Minucius did this
while he was consul.

Therefore, unless the Collegium Pontificum finds this practice to be
contrary to the wishes of the Gods, it seems that it is possible to
allow those who are not practitioners of the Religio Romana to hold
public office. Should the Collegium Pontificum determine that the Gods
are displeased with the practice, then it seems that the Pax Deorum
ought to be the more important consideration for an organization
dedicated to the ancient religion.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Use every man after his desert, and who shall escape whipping? Use
them after your own honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more
merit is in your bounty."
-Shakespeare
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24818 From: Lucius Equitius Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Digest Number 1348
L Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit

Salvete
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:45:43 -0000
From: "aoctaviaindagatrix" <christyacb@...>
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum

Salve,

Comments inserted below, responding to G. Iulius Scaurus' response:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> >SINCE NR HAS ALREADY "ADAPTED" THE "MOS MAIORUM" IN MANY WAYS
(i.e., women's rights, slavery, use of English rather than Latin, etc.)

> >
>
> This is the single most powerful argument I have ever seen
presented for not yielding a single inch further in compromise with
modernity. I
have always mistrusted the claims of the modernists that they were only
tweaking Roman principles around the edges to make Nova Roma
possible in the modern world.

AOI: This is most disturbing. Do you contend that NR should not have
adapted to include women as speaking members? I can't believe you
would disagree with slavery being abolished...

L Equitius: Here we go *again* with this tired, worn out, string of 'buzz
words'.
Scaurus said what he said, not what you say he "contends".
Cato 'contends' that we've already made concessions so therefore what is to
stop us from going forward with more, reductio ad absurdum. Let us just give
up on Roma altogether and go home, because that is where history has led us.
I for one am disappointed with how our society has turned out given the
legacy that Res publica Roma had begun.
I'd like to see us return to those things that made Roma great.
For example:
Self reliance, no need for mercenaries and foreign labor.
Fortitude, stand up to our enemies and defeat them, no matter how often we
sustain setbacks. i.e. Cannae.
Tradition, follow the worship and customs of our ancestores.
Of course we adapt, but first there ought to be a real reason for change,
not just convenience.

<SNIP>
My response is long in comparison to your short paragraph, and I do
apologize for the length.

L Equitius: Right, or as we used to say,
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with Bull S**t!"

>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

________________________________________________________________________

L Equitius: I want to thank A Apollonius for his reasoned response. He
clearly "got it".


Subject: Re: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum

A. Apollonius Cordus to Annia Octavia Indagatrix, and
to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> > This is the single most powerful argument I have ever seen presented
for
> > not yielding a single inch further in compromise with modernity...

>
> AOI: This is most disturbing. Do you contend that NR
> should not have
> adapted to include women as speaking members? I
> can't believe you
> would disagree with slavery being abolished....

In the interest of constructive discussion, I must
point out that you have misread Iulius Scaurus' words.
He talks about "not yielding an inch further in
compromise with modernity" - not of reversing the
compromises we have already made. And notice that he
does not in fact even say that we ought not to yield
an inch further; he simply says that there is a strong
argument for that position.

If he does, in fact, believe that we ought not to
yield another inch, then I, like you, disagree with
him; but let us not jump to a later stage of the
discussion. Iulius Scaurus hasn't put forward an
argument, so there is nothing for you or me to try to
disprove. Rather, he has made a criticism of Cato's
position. The question at hand is whether Cato's
position is sound, not whether Scaurus' position is.

And I am inclined to agree that Cato's position is
untenable. He seems to argue that since the mos
maiorum has already been altered, there is no reason
not to adapt it further. But surely there is some
reason not to adapt it further, for otherwise why
would we have adopted it in the first place? To put it
another way: if there is no reason not to alter the
mos maiorum, then surely there is no reason not to
dispose of it altogether? We are all here, presumably,
because we consider that the foundations of Roman
civilisation were good and solid foundations. We think
the Romans got many things right. If so, then surely
we must assume that they got everything right unless
we find good reason to think otherwise? Now, Scaurus
may have stricter criteria than you or I have for a
good reason to think otherwise; but we all agree, I
think, that the burden of proof is not on the mos
maiorum but on those who propose to depart from it. I
hope that Cato agrees too, but his remarks do not give
that impression.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:54:53 -0000
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <drusus@...>
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum

<SNIP>
The purpose of this organization is Roma. Any time we stray away from
Roma we are drifting away from the whole reason the organization
exists. Every little change away from Roman practice makes Nova Roma a
little more pointless.

Changes from the Roman way of doing things should never be the first
option, they should only be the last resort when it is found that we
can't make Roman practices work at this time.

Drusus

L Equitius: I think this position is most reasonable and is close to what
has been posted on the Nova Roma Constitution since the very beginning.

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

Now we argue over what is 'practical and acceptable', keeping in mind that
the goal is to remain as close to ancient Rome as possible, making any
adaptations grudgingly.

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24819 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.

salve, Drusus.

Look, you're missing the point here. I am not saying that we need to
add things on willy-nilly just because they've occurred in the past
1700 years. We should, however, acknowledge and incorporate them
when and if it is beneficial to the State to do so: we use the
technology available *not* because it is impossible to do EXACTLY
what the Romans did, but because it is more convenient in the modern
world. Why are people so afraid of simply accepting that the world
and our understanding of it has changed since the ancient Romans? To
do so makes us not "less Roman", not only because such an idea is
fallacious at the outset but also a recognition of the power of those
virtues we claim for ourselves now.

Perhaps there are many in NR who wish the past 1700 years had never
happened. That is perfectly within their rights. But it is
hypocritical to cling to the ancient Roman ideal when it is
found "suitable", yet use the benefits of the modern world when that
is "more" suitable. Are people really so afraid that the mos is this
fragile, delicate flower that must be put on a shelf onder a glass
dome, to be dusted off when we want a good look at it? Drusus, WE
ARE NOT EIGHTH CENTURY ROMANS. We are a group of people trying to
define our Romanitas in the 28th century world. In the religio,
perhaps "right action" is indeed more important than "right
thought". That is the province of the College of Pontiffs. In the
saecular realm, however, that definition, and the definition of our
Romanitas in relation to it, is not necessarily applicable.

The mos maiorum is alive, well, thriving, growing, building itself
and re-inventing itself constantly. We have the power and the
opportunity to shape it, use it, blend it, as our State finds
necessary, to the benefit of *all* NR citizens. So it was in RA, so
it is today.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> There are many things that are established practices among the
Hindus,
> the Chinese, and the Muslims. Should we blindly accept them as part
of
> Nova Roma?
>
> No we shouldn't, because they have nothing to do with Rome. The same
> is true of customs that developed over the past 1700 years. They are
> as meaningless in a Roman context as discussions of Astrophysics
would
> be in a forum devoted poetry.

CATO: "Twinkle, twinkle, little Star
How I wonder what you are..." :-)


vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24820 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> The term "Lustrum" could refer to a religous ritual
> conducted by the
> Censors. It was also used to refer to a 5 year
> period due to the
> intreval between the Rituals, the term of a Censors
> office, a wild
> beast's den, or a brothel, depending on the context.
>
> Up to now the context was one of the Censor's term
> of office.

I have a mental image of you reading my last message
and scrabbling in panic for your Latin dictionary so
as to sound, too late, as though you know what you're
talking about. When used in the context of a
discussion of the censorship and its duties, the word
'lustrum' clearly means the ritual. When I first
mentioned it you thought I meant the census. Now
you're trying to cover up your confusion by saying
that you thought I meant the secondary meaning of a
five-year interval.

But tell me, if you thought when I said "what was the
lustrum all about" that I meant "what was the
five-year interval all about", then why did you reply,
"Money and manpower for the legions"? How can a
five-year interval be about money and manpower? How,
indeed, can a five-year interval be about anything?

And then, having made your best effort to cover up the
fact that you have no idea what you're talking about,
you go on to evade the issue:

> If we are discussing the Ritual, then are we going
> to make it a
> requirement of the office that a Censor have no
> religous reasons not
> to conduct this ritual at the end of the Census? If
> so then we are
> talking about a ban on monotheists holding the
> postion.

I shan't repeat Senator Fortunatus's demonstration
that this statement is tosh. What I should like to
point out, however, is that it is completely
irrelevant to the issue we are discussing. Let me
recap, in case you've forgotten: you asserted that the
preservation of public morality was (not is, you note,
but was) peripheral, and indeed unnecessary, to the
fundamental purpose of the office of censor. My answer
was that the lustrum was (not is, but was) an
absolutely central duty of the censorship and was
entirely concerned with the ritual and moral purity of
the community.

And now that you have avoided actually responding to
my point, you finish by blustering:

> Conducting a Ritual of purification is a far
> differnt thing than the
> enforcement of the public morality. It is a single
> event that takes
> part of one day in 5 years, not something that fits
> in with your
> stance that the Censors clerical duties prevent them
> from following
> theire "primary" purpose of maintaining the public
> morality.
>
> That is an entirely modern concept of a Censor, not
> the one that
> existed in Rome.

Do you want to join battle with me on who has the
better understanding of ancient Rome? I think your
performance today shows who will win that one. Since I
joined this list I have not seen you say a single
thing about Roman history or culture which two other
people had not already said. You behave on this list
as if you know all there is to know about ancient Rome
and are therefore qualified to look down your nose at
anyone who doesn't know it all but is earnestly trying
to learn; yet you consistently show an understanding
of ancient Rome which would shame an undergraduate.

Furthermore, you have shown a consistent tendency to
oppose any proposal to make Nova Roma more historical
unless that proposal comes from yourself or one of
your allies. Here am I arguing that the duties of the
censors are totally unhistorical and ought to be
changed. Hither strides Senator Drusus, champion of
historical accuracy, to take the rostrum. Is he going
to support me? No, surprise surprise, he is denouncing
me as a modernist who doesn't know his Marsic War from
his Cimbric War (I wonder whether he can tell me the
dates of either of those without consulting a book?).
A while ago I, unworthy modernist, invited him to
support my proposal to make senatus consulta more
historical and to reinstate the patrum auctoritas. Did
he accept the invitation? Not a bit of it.

So, Senator, you say I have misunderstood the true
nature of the historical censura? I invite you to
prove it. Please produce (from your own knowledge and
research, and unaided by others) some primary evidence
to support your contention. I shall do the same for my
part. I hope to see you in the Forum tomorrow with
scrolls under your arm.





___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24821 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Salve,

I'm not the person who introduced the argument that the Religous
aspects of the Censors office are the most important thing he does.
Cordus is the one who bought up the concept of the Lustrum Ritual in
an effort to tie it to his errounous view that the ancient Censors
office was like the modern macronational Censors.

I asked for a clairifaction because it seems if conducting the Lustrum
Rituals is the most important aspect of the office then it only stands
to reason that the Censor should be a person who is capable of
personally fulfilling the most important task of his office.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Fortunatus <labienus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete Luci Sicini omnesque
>
> > So, do we make conducting the lustrum ritual a requirement for holding
> > the Censor's office?
>
> Of course. The rite ought to be performed.
>
> > That is in effect a ban on Christians, Jews, and Muslims from holding
> > public office in Nova Roma. Is that what you wish?
>
> It's established practice for magistrates who, for whatever reason, can
> or will not perform a given rite may appoint a practitioner of the
> Religio Romana to perform the rite in their stead. M Minucius did this
> while he was consul.
>
> Therefore, unless the Collegium Pontificum finds this practice to be
> contrary to the wishes of the Gods, it seems that it is possible to
> allow those who are not practitioners of the Religio Romana to hold
> public office. Should the Collegium Pontificum determine that the Gods
> are displeased with the practice, then it seems that the Pax Deorum
> ought to be the more important consideration for an organization
> dedicated to the ancient religion.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "Use every man after his desert, and who shall escape whipping? Use
> them after your own honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more
> merit is in your bounty."
> -Shakespeare
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24822 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

The danger of including within the concept of mos
maiorum those customs and norms which have evolved
since the end of the Roman period is that a great many
customs and norms have evolved in that period which
are fundamentally incompatible with Roman culture and
with one another. If we consider the mos maiorum as
the customs of every generation of western man up to
our own, then we end up not with Roman culture but
with modern western culture.

Now, I quite agree that we cannot simply pretend that
those intervening centuries didn't happen. Every
single one of us has a modern mind: none of us thinks
exactly like an ancient Roman would have thought. To
deny this would, as you say, be foolish. But I do not
think it is useful to use the phrase 'mos maiorum' in
this sense: it is much more useful if we take it to
refer to the ways of our Roman ancestors only, and not
of our more recent forebears.

You ask, "surely some of those nearly two thousand
years' experience can help shape and mold the mos
maiorum as we understand it today?" I think what you
mean is, "surely we can adapt the mos maiorum by
including selected modern ideas into it?" This, I
think, is the crucial question, and it is the one
which really divides Nova Roma.

Here, helpfully delivered to us just a few messages
ago by Senator Sicinius Drusus and heartily approved
by Senator Equitius Cincinnatus, is one possible
answer:

> Changes from the Roman way of doing things should
> never be the first
> option, they should only be the last resort when it
> is found that we
> can't make Roman practices work at this time.

Let's consider this idea carefully. And let us look
first at slavery. Now, I ask those who read this to
read very carefully what I am going to write. I know
slavery is often thrown up as a completely irrelevant
tangent by those of a more modernist inclination; and
I know strict reconstructors will instinctively regard
this as another example of the same; but it absolutely
is not. I am not one who builds straw men, and I do
not think anyone will accuse me of intellectual
laziness. Slavery is genuinely and importantly
pertinent to my argument, and I ask you to treat that
argument seriously.

So, then, why can there be no slavery in Nova Roma? It
was certainly a feature of historical Roman culture.
Here is the answer which derives from the Sicinian
argument: slavery is illegal under international law
and in all the countries in which nova Roman citizens
live. Nova Roman citizens are subject to macronational
laws. Therefore no Nova Roman citizen can legally own
a slave. Moreover, Nova Roma is itself a corporation
in the United States, and could face serious legal
problems if it were seen to condone or promote
slavery, which is of course illegal in the United
States. And finally, slavery is morally unacceptable
to most people, and for Nova Roma to promote, endorse,
or condone it would make Nova Roma very unpopular, so
as to discourage recruits and perhaps even threaten
its continued existence.

These arguments are all sound, reasonable, and
correct. But there is an unspoken assumption behind
them; an elephant in the corner which they do not
mention. What is it that they do not say? "Slavery is
wrong". The above objections to slavery in Nova Roma
are all objections which can be overcome. We could
change our place of incorporation to a country in
which slavery is not illegal. But that's impractical.
Well, okay, but what if, say, the United States were
to suddenly make slavery legal again? What if the
world were to decide that slavery is okay? In short,
what if all those objections I listed above were to
vanish? Then slavery would be historical Roman
practice; it would be possible and practical.
According to the Sicinian position, Nova Roma ought to
do anything which the Romans did and which is possible
and practical. So if slavery were possible and
practical, Nova Roma ought to do it.

There is an alternative answer to your question. Here
it is:

We should assume that the Roman way of doing things is
the best one unless we have a good reason to think
otherwise. If we have a good reason, we must consider
carefully. If the arguments in favour of departing
from Roman practice and adopting a modern or foreign
idea prove overwhelming, we must consider how that
idea may best and most seamlessly be incorporated into
the general Roman world-view, the mos maiorum. We may
adopt non-Roman ideas, but always in such a way as to
strengthen and complement the mos maiorum, never in
such a way as to weaken or undermine it.

How does this position approach the idea of slavery? I
suspect it says this: the idea that one human may own
another as property has been regarded by the
overwhelming majority of thinkers since the nineteenth
century as untenable. It strikes most people today as
reprehensible. What was its place in Roman culture? It
was not central or fundamental. Certainly the Roman
economy was based on slavery, and the way of life of
the Romans we admire would have been impossible
without it; but the industrial revolution and modern
technological development have made it possible for
such lifestyles, such economic prosperity, to be
achieved without slavery. Slavery was an incidental
feature of Roman civilisation and thought rather than
an important expression of the Roman mind. Moreover,
liberty was an important Roman ideal, and it was
thought highly undesirable to actually be a slave; and
there were tendencies in Roman thought, particularly
Stoic thought, toward regarding the ownership of one
man by another as wrong, though inevitable. All this
leads us to think that the Romans themselves, had they
been able to do away with slavery without undermining
their own economy, would have welcomed the chance. So
the modern idea that slavery is wrong has a strong
case, and the Romans seem to put up little resistance:
let us, then, pass on to our children a mos maiorum
which includes the moral unacceptability of slavery.

We could do similar exercises for other key topics.
What is the Sicinian justification for the equality of
women? To be honest, I cannot think what it could be:
it is not illegal for golf clubs or private schools to
be men-only, either wholly or at the upper levels, so
it would surely not be illegal for nova Roma to bar
women from magistracies. Maybe it would put some
people off, but even if all women and one in every two
men were prepared to boycott Nova Roma because of it,
well, that would still leave a quarter of the world's
population to recruit.

There are many other things the Sicinian position
would lead us logically to. It would be neither
impossible nor even impractical for Nova Roman voting
assemblies to be held in person. Yes, many people
would be unable to attend, but that was true in Roman
times also, so where is the problem? I could go on and
on.

It is my firm belief that the Sicinian position is a
dead end for Nova Roma. The Romans were cautious of
new and foreign ideas, and adopted them only very
selectively, but adopt them they did, and became all
the stronger for it. Cato Uticensis was not less Roman
than his grandfather simply because the former had
taken up the ideas of Greek philosophers where the
latter had poured scorn on them; Scipio Aemilianus was
not less Roman than Scipio Africanus for being a
friend of Polybius. If the Romans themselves were able
to remain Roman while selectively adopting the ideas
of Aristotle and Theophrastus, I do not see why we
should not be able to remain Roman while selectively
adopting the ideas of Thomas Paine or, indeed, of
Confucius, so long as we do not deviate from the mos
maiorum without compelling reasons, and so long as the
burden of proof remains always on he who argues for
deviation rather than on he who resists it. This is
the way forward for Nova Roma; the Sicinian 'possible
and practical' doctrine is not.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24823 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
LOL,

My My,

You do get rather snippy when you are caught in an error, let alone a
whole series of them that you are attempting to cover by a mixture of
acting condecending and hopping from one area to another in an effort
to cover your tracks.

You started out by presenting an errounous view of the secular duties
of the Censor, and tried to cover your errors by suddenly jumping to
the Religous aspects of the office.

Your concept of the Censor as the ongoing gaurdian of public morality
is both alien to the ancient Romans and to modern social ideas, so it
dosen't seem to fit either a traditional or a modernist viewpoit,
though it would be apt for a recreation of a victorian era government.

The Censor wasn't elected to a term, but to fulfil a series of tasks,
and the office ended when those tasks were fulfilled and remained
vacant until it was time to fulfil those tasks again. The typical time
period was about 18 months followed by the office being vacant for the
next 3 1/2 years. An office that is vacant more than twice as long as
it is filled is hardly consistant with your victorian concept of
having an ongoing protector of the public morality.

Nor is the fact that the election of the Censors was simply skipped
from time to time. According to Livy between the establishment of the
office in 443 BCE and 294 there were 26 pairs of Censors and 21 Lustra
conducted. Do the math, if the election was held every 5 years there
shoud have been 30 pairs of Censors. This means that the elections
were skipped 4 times. 5 of the pairs didn't hold a Lustrum, and 4
skipped election means that the Lustra were omitted almost a third of
the time, again pointing out the fallacy of your postion.

The simple fact is the Censors of antiquita were NOT a pair of Roman
Comstocks constantly watching over every aspect of the peoples lives
for moral lapses. Their primary duty was to hold a Census (Hence the
name of the office, Censor, a person who holds a Census) and to hand
out public contracts. Updating the albums was a part of the task of
holding a Census. It was during this updating that a Censor had the
option of striking someone from one of the Albums, and Morality could
play a part in that, though the Romans had a different concept of what
was and wasn't moral than that held by moderns.

As for religous aspects, the Censor had a duty to conduct a Lustrum
Ritual, but that that ritual had nothing to do with Victorian concepts
of morality. The Religio Romana is amoral, meaning it dosen't concern
itself with questions of public morality.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
> Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> > The term "Lustrum" could refer to a religous ritual
> > conducted by the
> > Censors. It was also used to refer to a 5 year
> > period due to the
> > intreval between the Rituals, the term of a Censors
> > office, a wild
> > beast's den, or a brothel, depending on the context.
> >
> > Up to now the context was one of the Censor's term
> > of office.
>
> I have a mental image of you reading my last message
> and scrabbling in panic for your Latin dictionary so
> as to sound, too late, as though you know what you're
> talking about. When used in the context of a
> discussion of the censorship and its duties, the word
> 'lustrum' clearly means the ritual. When I first
> mentioned it you thought I meant the census. Now
> you're trying to cover up your confusion by saying
> that you thought I meant the secondary meaning of a
> five-year interval.
>
> But tell me, if you thought when I said "what was the
> lustrum all about" that I meant "what was the
> five-year interval all about", then why did you reply,
> "Money and manpower for the legions"? How can a
> five-year interval be about money and manpower? How,
> indeed, can a five-year interval be about anything?
>
> And then, having made your best effort to cover up the
> fact that you have no idea what you're talking about,
> you go on to evade the issue:
>
> > If we are discussing the Ritual, then are we going
> > to make it a
> > requirement of the office that a Censor have no
> > religous reasons not
> > to conduct this ritual at the end of the Census? If
> > so then we are
> > talking about a ban on monotheists holding the
> > postion.
>
> I shan't repeat Senator Fortunatus's demonstration
> that this statement is tosh. What I should like to
> point out, however, is that it is completely
> irrelevant to the issue we are discussing. Let me
> recap, in case you've forgotten: you asserted that the
> preservation of public morality was (not is, you note,
> but was) peripheral, and indeed unnecessary, to the
> fundamental purpose of the office of censor. My answer
> was that the lustrum was (not is, but was) an
> absolutely central duty of the censorship and was
> entirely concerned with the ritual and moral purity of
> the community.
>
> And now that you have avoided actually responding to
> my point, you finish by blustering:
>
> > Conducting a Ritual of purification is a far
> > differnt thing than the
> > enforcement of the public morality. It is a single
> > event that takes
> > part of one day in 5 years, not something that fits
> > in with your
> > stance that the Censors clerical duties prevent them
> > from following
> > theire "primary" purpose of maintaining the public
> > morality.
> >
> > That is an entirely modern concept of a Censor, not
> > the one that
> > existed in Rome.
>
> Do you want to join battle with me on who has the
> better understanding of ancient Rome? I think your
> performance today shows who will win that one. Since I
> joined this list I have not seen you say a single
> thing about Roman history or culture which two other
> people had not already said. You behave on this list
> as if you know all there is to know about ancient Rome
> and are therefore qualified to look down your nose at
> anyone who doesn't know it all but is earnestly trying
> to learn; yet you consistently show an understanding
> of ancient Rome which would shame an undergraduate.
>
> Furthermore, you have shown a consistent tendency to
> oppose any proposal to make Nova Roma more historical
> unless that proposal comes from yourself or one of
> your allies. Here am I arguing that the duties of the
> censors are totally unhistorical and ought to be
> changed. Hither strides Senator Drusus, champion of
> historical accuracy, to take the rostrum. Is he going
> to support me? No, surprise surprise, he is denouncing
> me as a modernist who doesn't know his Marsic War from
> his Cimbric War (I wonder whether he can tell me the
> dates of either of those without consulting a book?).
> A while ago I, unworthy modernist, invited him to
> support my proposal to make senatus consulta more
> historical and to reinstate the patrum auctoritas. Did
> he accept the invitation? Not a bit of it.
>
> So, Senator, you say I have misunderstood the true
> nature of the historical censura? I invite you to
> prove it. Please produce (from your own knowledge and
> research, and unaided by others) some primary evidence
> to support your contention. I shall do the same for my
> part. I hope to see you in the Forum tomorrow with
> scrolls under your arm.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24824 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato A. Appollonio Cordo S.D.


salve Appollonio.

"It is my firm belief that the Sicinian position is a
dead end for Nova Roma. The Romans were cautious of
new and foreign ideas, and adopted them only very
selectively, but adopt them they did, and became all
the stronger for it. Cato Uticensis was not less Roman
than his grandfather simply because the former had
taken up the ideas of Greek philosophers where the
latter had poured scorn on them; Scipio Aemilianus was
not less Roman than Scipio Africanus for being a
friend of Polybius. If the Romans themselves were able
to remain Roman while selectively adopting the ideas
of Aristotle and Theophrastus, I do not see why we
should not be able to remain Roman while selectively
adopting the ideas of Thomas Paine or, indeed, of
Confucius, so long as we do not deviate from the mos
maiorum without compelling reasons, and so long as the
burden of proof remains always on he who argues for
deviation rather than on he who resists it. This is
the way forward for Nova Roma; the Sicinian 'possible
and practical' doctrine is not."

Exactly. You have stated clearly, concisely, and perfectly that with
which I have been fumbling inexpertly. That paragraph expresses
precisely my view of Nova Roma and the way forward.

vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24825 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
<Sigh>

I Guess I'm going to have to start accusing those who favor
modernising Nova Roma of Supporting the introduction of Auschwitz
Style Death Camps, the Gulag, Re-Education Camps, Wars that kill
millions of Civilians in Mechanizied Slaughter and other Horrors of
Modernism.

It's about as relavant to our situation as slavery.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> The danger of including within the concept of mos
> maiorum those customs and norms which have evolved
> since the end of the Roman period is that a great many
> customs and norms have evolved in that period which
> are fundamentally incompatible with Roman culture and
> with one another. If we consider the mos maiorum as
> the customs of every generation of western man up to
> our own, then we end up not with Roman culture but
> with modern western culture.
>
> Now, I quite agree that we cannot simply pretend that
> those intervening centuries didn't happen. Every
> single one of us has a modern mind: none of us thinks
> exactly like an ancient Roman would have thought. To
> deny this would, as you say, be foolish. But I do not
> think it is useful to use the phrase 'mos maiorum' in
> this sense: it is much more useful if we take it to
> refer to the ways of our Roman ancestors only, and not
> of our more recent forebears.
>
> You ask, "surely some of those nearly two thousand
> years' experience can help shape and mold the mos
> maiorum as we understand it today?" I think what you
> mean is, "surely we can adapt the mos maiorum by
> including selected modern ideas into it?" This, I
> think, is the crucial question, and it is the one
> which really divides Nova Roma.
>
> Here, helpfully delivered to us just a few messages
> ago by Senator Sicinius Drusus and heartily approved
> by Senator Equitius Cincinnatus, is one possible
> answer:
>
> > Changes from the Roman way of doing things should
> > never be the first
> > option, they should only be the last resort when it
> > is found that we
> > can't make Roman practices work at this time.
>
> Let's consider this idea carefully. And let us look
> first at slavery. Now, I ask those who read this to
> read very carefully what I am going to write. I know
> slavery is often thrown up as a completely irrelevant
> tangent by those of a more modernist inclination; and
> I know strict reconstructors will instinctively regard
> this as another example of the same; but it absolutely
> is not. I am not one who builds straw men, and I do
> not think anyone will accuse me of intellectual
> laziness. Slavery is genuinely and importantly
> pertinent to my argument, and I ask you to treat that
> argument seriously.
>
> So, then, why can there be no slavery in Nova Roma? It
> was certainly a feature of historical Roman culture.
> Here is the answer which derives from the Sicinian
> argument: slavery is illegal under international law
> and in all the countries in which nova Roman citizens
> live. Nova Roman citizens are subject to macronational
> laws. Therefore no Nova Roman citizen can legally own
> a slave. Moreover, Nova Roma is itself a corporation
> in the United States, and could face serious legal
> problems if it were seen to condone or promote
> slavery, which is of course illegal in the United
> States. And finally, slavery is morally unacceptable
> to most people, and for Nova Roma to promote, endorse,
> or condone it would make Nova Roma very unpopular, so
> as to discourage recruits and perhaps even threaten
> its continued existence.
>
> These arguments are all sound, reasonable, and
> correct. But there is an unspoken assumption behind
> them; an elephant in the corner which they do not
> mention. What is it that they do not say? "Slavery is
> wrong". The above objections to slavery in Nova Roma
> are all objections which can be overcome. We could
> change our place of incorporation to a country in
> which slavery is not illegal. But that's impractical.
> Well, okay, but what if, say, the United States were
> to suddenly make slavery legal again? What if the
> world were to decide that slavery is okay? In short,
> what if all those objections I listed above were to
> vanish? Then slavery would be historical Roman
> practice; it would be possible and practical.
> According to the Sicinian position, Nova Roma ought to
> do anything which the Romans did and which is possible
> and practical. So if slavery were possible and
> practical, Nova Roma ought to do it.
>
> There is an alternative answer to your question. Here
> it is:
>
> We should assume that the Roman way of doing things is
> the best one unless we have a good reason to think
> otherwise. If we have a good reason, we must consider
> carefully. If the arguments in favour of departing
> from Roman practice and adopting a modern or foreign
> idea prove overwhelming, we must consider how that
> idea may best and most seamlessly be incorporated into
> the general Roman world-view, the mos maiorum. We may
> adopt non-Roman ideas, but always in such a way as to
> strengthen and complement the mos maiorum, never in
> such a way as to weaken or undermine it.
>
> How does this position approach the idea of slavery? I
> suspect it says this: the idea that one human may own
> another as property has been regarded by the
> overwhelming majority of thinkers since the nineteenth
> century as untenable. It strikes most people today as
> reprehensible. What was its place in Roman culture? It
> was not central or fundamental. Certainly the Roman
> economy was based on slavery, and the way of life of
> the Romans we admire would have been impossible
> without it; but the industrial revolution and modern
> technological development have made it possible for
> such lifestyles, such economic prosperity, to be
> achieved without slavery. Slavery was an incidental
> feature of Roman civilisation and thought rather than
> an important expression of the Roman mind. Moreover,
> liberty was an important Roman ideal, and it was
> thought highly undesirable to actually be a slave; and
> there were tendencies in Roman thought, particularly
> Stoic thought, toward regarding the ownership of one
> man by another as wrong, though inevitable. All this
> leads us to think that the Romans themselves, had they
> been able to do away with slavery without undermining
> their own economy, would have welcomed the chance. So
> the modern idea that slavery is wrong has a strong
> case, and the Romans seem to put up little resistance:
> let us, then, pass on to our children a mos maiorum
> which includes the moral unacceptability of slavery.
>
> We could do similar exercises for other key topics.
> What is the Sicinian justification for the equality of
> women? To be honest, I cannot think what it could be:
> it is not illegal for golf clubs or private schools to
> be men-only, either wholly or at the upper levels, so
> it would surely not be illegal for nova Roma to bar
> women from magistracies. Maybe it would put some
> people off, but even if all women and one in every two
> men were prepared to boycott Nova Roma because of it,
> well, that would still leave a quarter of the world's
> population to recruit.
>
> There are many other things the Sicinian position
> would lead us logically to. It would be neither
> impossible nor even impractical for Nova Roman voting
> assemblies to be held in person. Yes, many people
> would be unable to attend, but that was true in Roman
> times also, so where is the problem? I could go on and
> on.
>
> It is my firm belief that the Sicinian position is a
> dead end for Nova Roma. The Romans were cautious of
> new and foreign ideas, and adopted them only very
> selectively, but adopt them they did, and became all
> the stronger for it. Cato Uticensis was not less Roman
> than his grandfather simply because the former had
> taken up the ideas of Greek philosophers where the
> latter had poured scorn on them; Scipio Aemilianus was
> not less Roman than Scipio Africanus for being a
> friend of Polybius. If the Romans themselves were able
> to remain Roman while selectively adopting the ideas
> of Aristotle and Theophrastus, I do not see why we
> should not be able to remain Roman while selectively
> adopting the ideas of Thomas Paine or, indeed, of
> Confucius, so long as we do not deviate from the mos
> maiorum without compelling reasons, and so long as the
> burden of proof remains always on he who argues for
> deviation rather than on he who resists it. This is
> the way forward for Nova Roma; the Sicinian 'possible
> and practical' doctrine is not.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24826 From: Pompeianus Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salvete Quirites,

I have read with a lot of attention the messages that have been sent to the list because it is a topic that it interests me a lot. I believe that at this time there is a clear base problem: what can we understand for mos maiorum? This concept had a clear sense In the ancient Rome, very well explained for G. Equitius Cato. In this sense, I want to emphasize that the mos maiorum arose because it was necessary to have a system of values to consult when the writing was not very diffused. So, it was being structured with their incoherences and successes. The fact is that the mos maiorum was a guide of the life.

In this context, what can we understand for mos maiorum? like really was de mos maiorum -a continuum created through the experience-, or the mos maiorum essence -that is their guide character-? I think that NR must see the mos maiorum as a guide. But this guide should be closed. Not open to new vital experiences. In this sense, I think that the history of Rome should be our complete mos maiorum. The mirror in which look ourselves. But this doesn't mean that interpretations or upgrades of the Roman world should not be made. I think that we can make it, whenever their Roman essence is respected.

Vale bene,

A. Minicius Iordannes Pompeianus.




---------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24827 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-17
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.

salve, Drusus.

LOL, at least you didn't mention that other bugaboo, the
Inquisition :-)

This, my good pontifex, is a reductio ad absurdam nauseamque. I
suggest that you begin writing out your correspondence to the List
longhand, on papyrus or vellum, with ink made from coal black and
oil, in Latin --- alternatively you could use a wax
tablet...recyclable, no? --- and messenger them to someone who can
post them using the Ultimate Horror of the Modern World, the Computer.

salve,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> <Sigh>
>
> I Guess I'm going to have to start accusing those who favor
> modernising Nova Roma of Supporting the introduction of Auschwitz
> Style Death Camps, the Gulag, Re-Education Camps, Wars that kill
> millions of Civilians in Mechanizied Slaughter and other Horrors of
> Modernism.
>
> It's about as relavant to our situation as slavery.
>
> Drusus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24828 From: Pat Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Fwd: [Nova-Roma] That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve,

>From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <drusus@...>
>Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum

<snip>

>No we shouldn't, because they have nothing to do with Rome. The same
>is true of customs that developed over the past 1700 years. They are
>as meaningless in a Roman context as discussions of Astrophysics would
>be in a forum devoted poetry.

Uh, I've seen astrophysics in poetry--in fact, in erotic poetry. I've also
heard it sung in high art form music.

While I think I understand your point, I'm hesitant to accept that entire
realms of knowledge and aspects of humanity are meaningless to Rome and
things Roman. Roma Antiqua was a very pragmatic and practical
civilization. That they didn't have to deal in any meaningful way with
Hinduism doesn't mean that it's meaningless. Just that there's not a
clear, solid guide on exactly how Rome would have dealt with it.

My understanding of the mos maiorum is that it serves as a sort of sea
anchor, using the past and the ways of the past to keep the society from
careening wildly with the whims of the mob or responding too easily to the
will and desires of a charismatic leader.

How would Rome have dealt with these things? We look to precedents and
parallels and... in doing so we recognize and affirm the value of the
mos. We try to emulate the best of how Rome dealt with things, and we try
to make the sort of decisions that we believe Romans would, given the
circumstances.

But this is a quibble, because basically I agree with where you end up here...

>The purpose of this organization is Roma. Any time we stray away from
>Roma we are drifting away from the whole reason the organization
>exists. Every little change away from Roman practice makes Nova Roma a
>little more pointless.
>
>Changes from the Roman way of doing things should never be the first
>option, they should only be the last resort when it is found that we
>can't make Roman practices work at this time.

Some may never work, because the conditions of human society have changed
so much. But I think those are few--and at the least we should assume that
they are rarities, and struggle first to apply ways that are clearly Roman,
then ways that are compromises but analogous and reasonable, and only if
that's impossible step out onto new ground and try to imagine a new Roman
solution.

Vale
M Umbrius Ursus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24829 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
That might be a welcome break since I own a business writting software
for those buggers.

As is typical when modernists start losing a debate over dumping
traditions your are veering off into nonsense.

My point still hasn't been refuted. The less we are like Roma the more
pointless the organization becomes.

So Cato, what's your next move, joining the Temperance movement and
complaing about not having drinks at meetings?

Drusus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.
>
> salve, Drusus.
>
> LOL, at least you didn't mention that other bugaboo, the
> Inquisition :-)
>
> This, my good pontifex, is a reductio ad absurdam nauseamque. I
> suggest that you begin writing out your correspondence to the List
> longhand, on papyrus or vellum, with ink made from coal black and
> oil, in Latin --- alternatively you could use a wax
> tablet...recyclable, no? --- and messenger them to someone who can
> post them using the Ultimate Horror of the Modern World, the Computer.
>
> salve,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > <Sigh>
> >
> > I Guess I'm going to have to start accusing those who favor
> > modernising Nova Roma of Supporting the introduction of Auschwitz
> > Style Death Camps, the Gulag, Re-Education Camps, Wars that kill
> > millions of Civilians in Mechanizied Slaughter and other Horrors of
> > Modernism.
> >
> > It's about as relavant to our situation as slavery.
> >
> > Drusus
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24830 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:03 PM
Subject: Fwd: [Nova-Roma] That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Salve,

>From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <drusus@...>
>Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum

<snip>

>No we shouldn't, because they have nothing to do with Rome. The same
>is true of customs that developed over the past 1700 years. They are
>as meaningless in a Roman context as discussions of Astrophysics would
>be in a forum devoted poetry.

Uh, I've seen astrophysics in poetry--in fact, in erotic poetry. I've also
heard it sung in high art form music.

Sulla: Fine, but it still has nothing to do with ancient Rome, and in this I hope you agree with me.
While I think I understand your point, I'm hesitant to accept that entire
realms of knowledge and aspects of humanity are meaningless to Rome and
things Roman. Roma Antiqua was a very pragmatic and practical
civilization. That they didn't have to deal in any meaningful way with
Hinduism doesn't mean that it's meaningless. Just that there's not a
clear, solid guide on exactly how Rome would have dealt with it.

Sulla: Once again, the point that those of us who are conservatives would prefer to keep Nova Roma as close as possible to the anceints. Before any deviations take place the Mos Maiorum should be followed as closely as possible. Granted we have already made some concessions but that does NOT mean we should open the flood gates. When I was a magistrate I always contemplated first on how the ancients would have resolved issues and tried to follow that path first. To disregard the ancients is to disregard the fundamental purpose of Nova Roma. To disregard, ignore and blantantly change the Mos Maiorum is to violate the very purpose Nova Roma was founded.

My understanding of the mos maiorum is that it serves as a sort of sea
anchor, using the past and the ways of the past to keep the society from
careening wildly with the whims of the mob or responding too easily to the
will and desires of a charismatic leader.

Sulla: It was more than that it covered the entire facet of Roman Society. Each Roman new about it essentially from their mother's milk. It governed every facet of their life and gave them a guideance that served to either enhance or detract their standing with the community. When someone did an infraction from the Mos Maiorum it not only affected that individiaul but his/her entire family. A perfect example of this was written in the life of Sulla by Plutarch, "LUCIUS Cornelius Sylla was descended of a patrician or noble family. Of his ancestors, Rufinus, it is said, had been consul, and incurred a disgrace more signal than his distinction. For being found possessed of more than ten pounds of silver plate, contrary to the law, he was for this reason put out of the senate. His posterity continued ever after in obscurity, nor had Sylla himself any opulent parentage." http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/sylla.html This was of course during the Mid Republic.

How would Rome have dealt with these things? We look to precedents and
parallels and... in doing so we recognize and affirm the value of the
mos. We try to emulate the best of how Rome dealt with things, and we try
to make the sort of decisions that we believe Romans would, given the
circumstances.

Sulla: It is my sincere belief that the Romans would have look to tradition first and foremost.

But this is a quibble, because basically I agree with where you end up here...

>The purpose of this organization is Roma. Any time we stray away from
>Roma we are drifting away from the whole reason the organization
>exists. Every little change away from Roman practice makes Nova Roma a
>little more pointless.
>
>Changes from the Roman way of doing things should never be the first
>option, they should only be the last resort when it is found that we
>can't make Roman practices work at this time.

Some may never work, because the conditions of human society have changed
so much. But I think those are few--and at the least we should assume that
they are rarities, and struggle first to apply ways that are clearly Roman,
then ways that are compromises but analogous and reasonable, and only if
that's impossible step out onto new ground and try to imagine a new Roman
solution.

Sulla: My opinion, and I believe the opinion of other conservatives in Nova Roma would be to try to focus on the traditions of the ancestors FIRST. If they do not work we can then modify without so much deviation from the traditions of the ancients. But, the ancients must always be consulted first and foremost before we allow deviations.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Vale
M Umbrius Ursus




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24831 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve,

I am trying to follow this exchange, and perhaps still stuck back at
the beginning. What I don't understand is, how much do you think you
can change the mos maiorum of Roma Antiqua and still have it be
something that is recognizably Roman? It seems to me that this is the
most slippery of slopes, and that having made so many adjustments for
modern sensibilities, each further step in your "evolution" is a step
away from Romanitas. I'm not opposed per se to the idea of an
evolving mos, but I'd like to think that the proponents of evolution
can point to a bright line, after which they'll stop making changes.
My fear is that they don't have a line and won't stop.

Vale,
Ambrosius Artorus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
>
> Appollonius, I think there is a misunderstanding about what exactly
> the mos maiorum is. It is *not* a single prescribed set of
> standards, actions, or beliefs. It is a constantly evolving,
> syncretic amalgamation of the ways in which we view ourselves, our
> society, and the rest of the world. If you re-read my posts (the
> original one, and the replies to Caesar), I hope you can grasp my
> uttermost respect for the idea of the mos; as Caesar said in a
> response, it is not a question of "does the mos matter?" but "how
do
> we work within the understanding of what the mos is?" My main
> concern is whether or not we understand the mos maiorum to be the
mos
> of *we who exist in NR now*, not just the mos maiorum which existed
> in RA. Does this make sense?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________ALL-
NEW
> Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24832 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Ave,

That fear is not just your own. It is mine and if I speak for other conservatives in NR it is their own as well. I would prefer that we stick with the ancients as much as possible. However even this is a problem given that the Mos Maiorum evolved over 1500 years of Roman Development. This is precisely why myself and others feel it is essential that we pinpoint and focus on a specific period of Roman History. I, as well as a few others have suggested we focus on the Mid Republic where there was a balance in the branches of government.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Salve,

I am trying to follow this exchange, and perhaps still stuck back at
the beginning. What I don't understand is, how much do you think you
can change the mos maiorum of Roma Antiqua and still have it be
something that is recognizably Roman? It seems to me that this is the
most slippery of slopes, and that having made so many adjustments for
modern sensibilities, each further step in your "evolution" is a step
away from Romanitas. I'm not opposed per se to the idea of an
evolving mos, but I'd like to think that the proponents of evolution
can point to a bright line, after which they'll stop making changes.
My fear is that they don't have a line and won't stop.

Vale,
Ambrosius Artorus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
>
> Appollonius, I think there is a misunderstanding about what exactly
> the mos maiorum is. It is *not* a single prescribed set of
> standards, actions, or beliefs. It is a constantly evolving,
> syncretic amalgamation of the ways in which we view ourselves, our
> society, and the rest of the world. If you re-read my posts (the
> original one, and the replies to Caesar), I hope you can grasp my
> uttermost respect for the idea of the mos; as Caesar said in a
> response, it is not a question of "does the mos matter?" but "how
do
> we work within the understanding of what the mos is?" My main
> concern is whether or not we understand the mos maiorum to be the
mos
> of *we who exist in NR now*, not just the mos maiorum which existed
> in RA. Does this make sense?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________ALL-
NEW
> Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24833 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae M. Umbrio Urso L. Sicinio Druso
S.P.D.

salvete, virii.

First off, Sicinius Drusus, it was you who veered off into the
ridiculous with your comment about adopting all the horrors of
modernism. Let's keep that in perspective.

Cornelius Sulla, in the very quote you use to uphold the rigidity of
the mos maiorum, it does *not* state that Rufinus was disgraced
because he had violated the mos maiorum: it states that he was
disgraced because he had acted "contrary to the law"; unless I am
mistaken, that is the very issue I brought up in the first place: the
question of the mos in regards to the law and Constitution.

Is it not a part of the ancient mos maiorum to evaluate any new idea
and judge it against the past? If it has merit, it is added, if not,
it is discarded. Cornelius Sulla, I happen to be, in the
macronational world, an extraordinarily conservative person. My
motto has often been that "change is good --- if it's change back to
the way things used to be". The genius of the ancient Romans was to
discover a new idea, look at it, play with it, and if it worked,
adopt it, claiming that it was always a part of the mos, just
presented differently. This attitude is reflected in the old joke
that when the Roman Catholic Church changes its centuries-old ban on
women priests, the Papal Bull announcing it would begin: "As the
Church has always taught..."

I am not saying that we should adopt the Eight-Fold Path of Buddhism,
or the many-armed Gods or Goddesses of Hinduism; but I firmly believe
that had the Romans known of either, they would have had no problem
whatsoever with erecting a temple to Shiva right next to that of the
Divine Twins, and found very comforting the ideas of "right
thought", "right action", etc. I am saying that we should be willing
to look at novel ways of doing things, and if they are in step with
what we see as beneficial to the State, according to the will of the
citizens, that we accept them. So "let's let Hindus worship Shiva in
Rome" would be in accordance with the mos, while "let's deny women a
place in government" is no longer a part of the mos.

Example:
Citizen X says, "We should have a law or practice that says ABC."

We (the citizens of NR) would ask ourselves:
1) is ABC, supported by any ancient authorities that we have?
2) is any *part* of ABC supported by ancient writings?
3) if ABC is *not* reflected in ancient authorities, does it
logically *follow* from the ideas presented in ancient authorities?
4) does ABC agree with the Constitution of NR?
5) does ABC benefit the State as a whole?

Then we, as citizens, have the power to either adopt or reject ABC,
based upon our understanding not only of what the ancients might have
thought, but also in our ability to extrapolate using the aggregate
knowledge since the ancients wrote. Is this really violence against
the mos maiorum? Or is it actually a way of making the mos more
useful and evident in our lives? I would claim it is the latter.

valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pat
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:03 PM
> Subject: Fwd: [Nova-Roma] That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
>
> Salve,
>
> >From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <drusus@b...>
> >Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
> <snip>
>
> >No we shouldn't, because they have nothing to do with Rome. The
same
> >is true of customs that developed over the past 1700 years. They
are
> >as meaningless in a Roman context as discussions of Astrophysics
would
> >be in a forum devoted poetry.
>
> Uh, I've seen astrophysics in poetry--in fact, in erotic poetry.
I've also
> heard it sung in high art form music.
>
> Sulla: Fine, but it still has nothing to do with ancient Rome,
and in this I hope you agree with me.
> While I think I understand your point, I'm hesitant to accept
that entire
> realms of knowledge and aspects of humanity are meaningless to
Rome and
> things Roman. Roma Antiqua was a very pragmatic and practical
> civilization. That they didn't have to deal in any meaningful
way with
> Hinduism doesn't mean that it's meaningless. Just that there's
not a
> clear, solid guide on exactly how Rome would have dealt with it.
>
> Sulla: Once again, the point that those of us who are
conservatives would prefer to keep Nova Roma as close as possible to
the anceints. Before any deviations take place the Mos Maiorum
should be followed as closely as possible. Granted we have already
made some concessions but that does NOT mean we should open the flood
gates. When I was a magistrate I always contemplated first on how
the ancients would have resolved issues and tried to follow that path
first. To disregard the ancients is to disregard the fundamental
purpose of Nova Roma. To disregard, ignore and blantantly change the
Mos Maiorum is to violate the very purpose Nova Roma was founded.
>
> My understanding of the mos maiorum is that it serves as a sort
of sea
> anchor, using the past and the ways of the past to keep the
society from
> careening wildly with the whims of the mob or responding too
easily to the
> will and desires of a charismatic leader.
>
> Sulla: It was more than that it covered the entire facet of
Roman Society. Each Roman new about it essentially from their
mother's milk. It governed every facet of their life and gave them a
guideance that served to either enhance or detract their standing
with the community. When someone did an infraction from the Mos
Maiorum it not only affected that individiaul but his/her entire
family. A perfect example of this was written in the life of Sulla
by Plutarch, "LUCIUS Cornelius Sylla was descended of a patrician or
noble family. Of his ancestors, Rufinus, it is said, had been consul,
and incurred a disgrace more signal than his distinction. For being
found possessed of more than ten pounds of silver plate, contrary to
the law, he was for this reason put out of the senate. His posterity
continued ever after in obscurity, nor had Sylla himself any opulent
parentage." http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/sylla.html This was of
course during the Mid Republic.
>
> How would Rome have dealt with these things? We look to
precedents and
> parallels and... in doing so we recognize and affirm the value of
the
> mos. We try to emulate the best of how Rome dealt with things,
and we try
> to make the sort of decisions that we believe Romans would, given
the
> circumstances.
>
> Sulla: It is my sincere belief that the Romans would have look
to tradition first and foremost.
>
> But this is a quibble, because basically I agree with where you
end up here...
>
> >The purpose of this organization is Roma. Any time we stray away
from
> >Roma we are drifting away from the whole reason the organization
> >exists. Every little change away from Roman practice makes Nova
Roma a
> >little more pointless.
> >
> >Changes from the Roman way of doing things should never be the
first
> >option, they should only be the last resort when it is found
that we
> >can't make Roman practices work at this time.
>
> Some may never work, because the conditions of human society have
changed
> so much. But I think those are few--and at the least we should
assume that
> they are rarities, and struggle first to apply ways that are
clearly Roman,
> then ways that are compromises but analogous and reasonable, and
only if
> that's impossible step out onto new ground and try to imagine a
new Roman
> solution.
>
> Sulla: My opinion, and I believe the opinion of other
conservatives in Nova Roma would be to try to focus on the traditions
of the ancestors FIRST. If they do not work we can then modify
without so much deviation from the traditions of the ancients. But,
the ancients must always be consulted first and foremost before we
allow deviations.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> Vale
> M Umbrius Ursus
>
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24834 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Salve Corde,

>I am not one who builds straw men, and I do
> not think anyone will accuse me of intellectual
> laziness. Slavery is genuinely and importantly
> pertinent to my argument, and I ask you to treat that
> argument seriously.

One could never accuse you of intellectual laziness. While your
posts are long, when you are not discussing the details of a voting
law, they are usually quite interesting, even when I don't agree. :-)

> It is my firm belief that the Sicinian position is a
> dead end for Nova Roma.

Perhaps I am the one being intellectually lazy but after two readings
of your post, especially the end, I do not see the distance you claim
to have placed between yourself and what you refer to as the Sicinian
position. I see the vast gap between your position and Cato's, as you
place the mos maiorum (MM) in the preeminent place and the burden of
proof on whoever wishes to act contrary to the MM. However, I do not
see Drusus' position as being vastly different from that and hardly
a dead-end.

Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24835 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:41 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae M. Umbrio Urso L. Sicinio Druso
S.P.D.

<Snip to Drusus>

Cornelius Sulla, in the very quote you use to uphold the rigidity of
the mos maiorum, it does *not* state that Rufinus was disgraced
because he had violated the mos maiorum: it states that he was
disgraced because he had acted "contrary to the law"; unless I am
mistaken, that is the very issue I brought up in the first place: the
question of the mos in regards to the law and Constitution.

Sulla: But you did not read the remainder of the quote, in that it affected his entire family up until the recovery of the Cornelia Sullae by my namesake, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix. That is quite a stif punishment to break a law that affects generations of Corneliae Sullae, dont you agree?
Is it not a part of the ancient mos maiorum to evaluate any new idea
and judge it against the past? If it has merit, it is added, if not,
it is discarded. Cornelius Sulla, I happen to be, in the
macronational world, an extraordinarily conservative person.

Sulla: How do you know it is not apart of the ancient Mos Maiorum to evaluate any new idea and to judge it against the past? I believe for Nova Roma that is an essential part of Nova Roma's function, based on the originating paragraphs of the Constitution of Nova Roma, which was quoted by Senator Q. Fabius Maximus when he stated, "The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome." How much more clearer of a dictate do you require? G. Equitius I am exactly as conservative in the macronational world as I am in Nova Roma. The only way to test the various ancient mos maiorum is to place it in action and if it needs to be modified then it can be modified.

My
motto has often been that "change is good --- if it's change back to
the way things used to be". The genius of the ancient Romans was to
discover a new idea, look at it, play with it, and if it worked,
adopt it, claiming that it was always a part of the mos, just
presented differently. This attitude is reflected in the old joke
that when the Roman Catholic Church changes its centuries-old ban on
women priests, the Papal Bull announcing it would begin: "As the
Church has always taught..."

Sulla: Intersesting, I never viewed the Romans as inventive and creative. Instead they borrowed and tended toward conservatism. There was a quote by Augustus Caesar that said, "Make Haste Slowly." This was something that I believed type of attitude and conviction allowed the Mos Maiorum to exist with minimal deviaion til the end of the Mid and Late Republic.

I am not saying that we should adopt the Eight-Fold Path of Buddhism,
or the many-armed Gods or Goddesses of Hinduism; but I firmly believe
that had the Romans known of either, they would have had no problem
whatsoever with erecting a temple to Shiva right next to that of the
Divine Twins, and found very comforting the ideas of "right
thought", "right action", etc.

Sulla: Sure, in the midst of a crises the Romans were very willing to seek the advice of any Diety that would assist them, if I recall correctly that was when Magna Mater and other cults began to flourish in Rome.

I am saying that we should be willing
to look at novel ways of doing things, and if they are in step with
what we see as beneficial to the State, according to the will of the
citizens, that we accept them. So "let's let Hindus worship Shiva in
Rome" would be in accordance with the mos, while "let's deny women a
place in government" is no longer a part of the mos.

Sulla: And I disagree, I believe most of the answers can be found by researching the ancients and evaluating how they done things. Look at it this way their civilization lasted 1500 years, not many civilizations existed to such a long time, perhaps their actions were more correct given their obvious achievements.

Example:
Citizen X says, "We should have a law or practice that says ABC."

We (the citizens of NR) would ask ourselves:
1) is ABC, supported by any ancient authorities that we have?
2) is any *part* of ABC supported by ancient writings?
3) if ABC is *not* reflected in ancient authorities, does it
logically *follow* from the ideas presented in ancient authorities?
4) does ABC agree with the Constitution of NR?
5) does ABC benefit the State as a whole?

Then we, as citizens, have the power to either adopt or reject ABC,
based upon our understanding not only of what the ancients might have
thought, but also in our ability to extrapolate using the aggregate
knowledge since the ancients wrote. Is this really violence against
the mos maiorum? Or is it actually a way of making the mos more
useful and evident in our lives? I would claim it is the latter.

Sulla: Most of that decision making process should have already been thought out by the presiding magistrate who wrote the law and have gotten ample feedback from his/her scribes and should be able to respond to questions from the populace. Since the populace does not write or promulgate laws (they just vote on them) your example is irrelevant.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

valete,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pat
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:03 PM
> Subject: Fwd: [Nova-Roma] That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
>
> Salve,
>
> >From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <drusus@b...>
> >Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
> <snip>
>
> >No we shouldn't, because they have nothing to do with Rome. The
same
> >is true of customs that developed over the past 1700 years. They
are
> >as meaningless in a Roman context as discussions of Astrophysics
would
> >be in a forum devoted poetry.
>
> Uh, I've seen astrophysics in poetry--in fact, in erotic poetry.
I've also
> heard it sung in high art form music.
>
> Sulla: Fine, but it still has nothing to do with ancient Rome,
and in this I hope you agree with me.
> While I think I understand your point, I'm hesitant to accept
that entire
> realms of knowledge and aspects of humanity are meaningless to
Rome and
> things Roman. Roma Antiqua was a very pragmatic and practical
> civilization. That they didn't have to deal in any meaningful
way with
> Hinduism doesn't mean that it's meaningless. Just that there's
not a
> clear, solid guide on exactly how Rome would have dealt with it.
>
> Sulla: Once again, the point that those of us who are
conservatives would prefer to keep Nova Roma as close as possible to
the anceints. Before any deviations take place the Mos Maiorum
should be followed as closely as possible. Granted we have already
made some concessions but that does NOT mean we should open the flood
gates. When I was a magistrate I always contemplated first on how
the ancients would have resolved issues and tried to follow that path
first. To disregard the ancients is to disregard the fundamental
purpose of Nova Roma. To disregard, ignore and blantantly change the
Mos Maiorum is to violate the very purpose Nova Roma was founded.
>
> My understanding of the mos maiorum is that it serves as a sort
of sea
> anchor, using the past and the ways of the past to keep the
society from
> careening wildly with the whims of the mob or responding too
easily to the
> will and desires of a charismatic leader.
>
> Sulla: It was more than that it covered the entire facet of
Roman Society. Each Roman new about it essentially from their
mother's milk. It governed every facet of their life and gave them a
guideance that served to either enhance or detract their standing
with the community. When someone did an infraction from the Mos
Maiorum it not only affected that individiaul but his/her entire
family. A perfect example of this was written in the life of Sulla
by Plutarch, "LUCIUS Cornelius Sylla was descended of a patrician or
noble family. Of his ancestors, Rufinus, it is said, had been consul,
and incurred a disgrace more signal than his distinction. For being
found possessed of more than ten pounds of silver plate, contrary to
the law, he was for this reason put out of the senate. His posterity
continued ever after in obscurity, nor had Sylla himself any opulent
parentage." http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/sylla.html This was of
course during the Mid Republic.
>
> How would Rome have dealt with these things? We look to
precedents and
> parallels and... in doing so we recognize and affirm the value of
the
> mos. We try to emulate the best of how Rome dealt with things,
and we try
> to make the sort of decisions that we believe Romans would, given
the
> circumstances.
>
> Sulla: It is my sincere belief that the Romans would have look
to tradition first and foremost.
>
> But this is a quibble, because basically I agree with where you
end up here...
>
> >The purpose of this organization is Roma. Any time we stray away
from
> >Roma we are drifting away from the whole reason the organization
> >exists. Every little change away from Roman practice makes Nova
Roma a
> >little more pointless.
> >
> >Changes from the Roman way of doing things should never be the
first
> >option, they should only be the last resort when it is found
that we
> >can't make Roman practices work at this time.
>
> Some may never work, because the conditions of human society have
changed
> so much. But I think those are few--and at the least we should
assume that
> they are rarities, and struggle first to apply ways that are
clearly Roman,
> then ways that are compromises but analogous and reasonable, and
only if
> that's impossible step out onto new ground and try to imagine a
new Roman
> solution.
>
> Sulla: My opinion, and I believe the opinion of other
conservatives in Nova Roma would be to try to focus on the traditions
of the ancestors FIRST. If they do not work we can then modify
without so much deviation from the traditions of the ancients. But,
the ancients must always be consulted first and foremost before we
allow deviations.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> Vale
> M Umbrius Ursus
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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Service.
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24836 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: ante diem XIV Kalendae Quinctilis
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem XIV Kalendae Quinctilis; the day is comitialis.

Tomorrow is ante diem XIII Kalendae Quinctilis and sacred to Minerva;
the day is comitialis. On this day the temple of Minverva on the
Aventine was dedicated.

Valete

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24837 From: athanasiosofspfd Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: On Vacation
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

I will be on vacation and away from June 19th - 27th. I will be at
Pagan Spirit Gathering, enjoying good company and a relaxing week. I
am conducting several workshops on the Religio Romana and leading a
ritual in honor of Pomona.

If anyone needs to reach me please send me a private mail labelled:
PRIVATE: subject and I will respond upon returning.

I apologize in advance if my disappearance causes an inconvience with
anyone, but a vacation is much needed on my part.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24838 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Cassius Calvus and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> I wouldn't say I've "come around" or "flip-flopped"
> my position. I
> merely stated that as things stand now it is
> neccessary to have a
> functioning Censor's office otherwise a lot of
> neccessary work such
> as processing citizenship applications, answering
> current and
> prospective citizen's questions would come to a
> screeching halt.

Fair enough. Let me hasten to point out that when I
said that your position at the end of your paragraph
was quite the opposite of that which you seemed to
heold at the beginning, this was by no means meant as
a criticism. I am constantly amazed and confused by
opposition politicians who spend weeks denouncing the
foolish policies of the government and then, when the
government changes the policy, spend the following
weeks denouncing the government for changing its mind.
I know the younger Cato was of the view that
consistency could be more important than correctness,
but this is one of his many ideas with which I do not
hold.

I quite agree that it would be totally inappropriate
and would invite chaos for us simply to omit to elect
any censors for the next four years, without making
any legislative reforms. I admit I was a little
perplexed when you said that a constitutional
amendment would be needed because the censors are
currently the secretaries of the corporation. My
confusion arose because you seemed to think that I had
not already understood the need for a constitutional
amendment - with or without the matter of secretaries,
an amendment would be needed. I'm a trusting sort of
fellow, and when someone says to me, 'ah, but you
haven't thought of this', I believe it. Consequently,
when the thing in question is something I actually
have already thought of, I become confused as a result
of trying to believe that it had not thought of it. Do
you see what I mean?

> That doesn't mean that a Constitutional amendment
> couldn't be passed
> to change the Censor's job description to something
> else. Just as
> things stand it would be neccessary to have a
> constitutional
> amendment to redefine the duties of the Censor's
> office and the
> administrative duties such as processing citizenship
> applications
> and so on be transfered to a Vigintisexviri
> positions akin to the
> Rogator's role in elections or some other way of
> keeping the all the
> paperwork balls in the air. However I hold
> reservations about such
> a plan on the grounds that experienced supervision
> that would be
> lacking.

I agree, and I am thinking carefully about the best
way to do it. I have contacted Vedius Germanicus, who
as we know is also thinking his own thoughts about the
same subject. Now you are thinking about it too. Since
none of us is a magistrate with the ius agendi cum
populo, there will be no hasty legislation on the
matter; I trust, therefore, that by the time any such
reform reach the voting stage all details will have
been thoroughly considered.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24839 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> You do get rather snippy when you are caught in an
> error, let alone a
> whole series of them that you are attempting to
> cover by a mixture of
> acting condecending and hopping from one area to
> another in an effort
> to cover your tracks.

What an excellent description, Senator, of your own
behaviour. I'm afraid, though, that you have
accidentally used the second person pronoun in place
of the correct first person.

Now that you have correctly understood where you've
been going wrong, I'm sure we shall soon see a message
from you in which you cite primary sources to support
your view of the censorship.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24840 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Salvete Luci Sicini omnesque

> I'm not the person who introduced the argument that the Religous
> aspects of the Censors office are the most important thing he does.

I don't care who introduced which argument. That's all beside the point with
respect to my previous message.

> I asked for a clairifaction because it seems if conducting the Lustrum
> Rituals is the most important aspect of the office then it only stands
> to reason that the Censor should be a person who is capable of
> personally fulfilling the most important task of his office.

This is a straw man, plain and simple. Nova Roma has made accomodations for
magistrates who do not practice the Religio Romana. You knew that when you
posted. When the straw man is removed, all that remains is my point--my *only*
point--that the rites can and ought to be performed even when a non-
practitioner is in office.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24841 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Consular Decius
Iunius Palladius, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> Perhaps I am the one being intellectually lazy but
> after two readings
> of your post, especially the end, I do not see the
> distance you claim
> to have placed between yourself and what you refer
> to as the Sicinian
> position.

I am delighted to hear it. Those who like to sell the
line that a vast and unbridgeable gulf separates
stricter and less strict reconstructors have made a
thriving and profitable industry of their trade, and
it is high time we put them out of business. So yes,
you are quite right, the distance between my position
and the other is far smaller than many would like to
suggest. In practice, the two views will often (if
properly followed to their logical conclusions) agree
on what ought actually to be done, and this is why I
find myself rather baffled when prominent Boni like
the Senators Drusus and Maximus meet my frequent
suggestions that things should be made more historical
with silence or even hostility.

There is, though, and important difference. It is
essentially this: one side holds that divergence from
Roman practice must only occur when it is impossible
or impractical to avoid it; the other believes that
some aspects of Roman practice ought not to be
recreated even if it were possible and practical to
recreate them.

This is why I introduce the example of slavery,
because it illustrates very clearly the difference. It
also, neatly, illustrates the fact that two two sides
can often agree in practice while disagreeing in
theory. The one side opposes slavery because it is
impossible and impractical. The other opposes slavery
because it is wrong. The one side would, according to
its own logic, revive slavery if it were possible and
practical to do so. The other would not.

There are, of course, times when the two sides will
disagree about practical matters. It is, for instance,
both possible and practical to recreate the historical
electoral system (or at least a plausible model of
it). Presumably those who hold to the 'possible and
practical' doctrine will argue that it ought to be so.
I, however, think that this is one of those occasions
on which we ought to depart from Roman practice, and I
firmly believe that if I were able to walk and talk
for a few hours with Scipio Aemilianus and Cicero,
they would say the same.

> ... I see the vast gap between your position
> and Cato's, as you
> place the mos maiorum (MM) in the preeminent place
> and the burden of
> proof on whoever wishes to act contrary to the MM.
> However, I do not
> see Drusus' position as being vastly different from
> that and hardly
> a dead-end.

I think perhaps Cato's position, as you see it and as
I saw it, is somewhat illusory, for his recent remarks
seem to suggest that the position I've expressed is
what he was driving at; but I cannot speak for him.
There may be those who hold a third position, in which
historical practice holds a less central place. If
there are, then I do not agree with them; but I think
you will find that a very large number of people who
those at your end of the spectrum tend to vilify as
modernists and iconoclasts are in fact very close to
the sort of position I have been expressing.

The followers of the 'possible and practical' doctrine
may tread the same path as the others for a long
distance from where we are now, but there is a fork
further down the road, and the branch which the
'possible and practical' band will take is indeed a
dead end. They will notice that it is both possible
and practical to meet in person for legislative
assemblies, and will be forced by their own logic to
do so. They will discover that warfare was an
important part of Roman life and identity, and that it
is both possible and practical to engage in armed
combat, and by their own logic they will have to do it
(notice that this logic requires them to recreate
whatever is possible and practical, even things which
would lead to the destruction of Nova Roma or of
themselves). These may seem absurd examples, but
anyone capable of clear thinking will realise that
they follow with inexorable and water-tight logic from
the statement that whatever is practical and possible
to recreate must be recreated. Those who subscribe to
both logic and the 'possible and practical' doctrine
will meet a dead end. For those who do not subscribe
to logic, I have no time. Those who do subscribe to
logic and who do not wish to find themselves in this
cul-de-sac will have to abandon the 'possible and
practical' doctrine, either adopting the alternative I
have set out or creating a new one of their own.

I hope this is somewhat clearer.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24842 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato A. Appollonio Cordo D. Iunio Palladio S.P.D.

salvete, virii.

Appollonius, the way you have described the (for lack of a batter
term) " non-'practical and possible' " view is indeed what I mean.

Many many posts ago I went to great lengths regarding the slavery
issue; I showed that there are indeed macronations under whose thumb
involuntary servitude still exists, and the resultant outcry from the
United Nations, etc. I said that since there are concrete examples of
nations which still use slaves, that it is neither impossible (though
it *is* somewhat less practical) to create a Nova Roma in which
slavery exists. I quote my original post here:

"i.e., your definition of "strict re-construction"; I have merely
played them out to their logical conclusion. As I said earlier,
since many of the practices that we've mentioned are, in fact, *being
practiced currently* by nations in various places in the world, they
are neither exaggerated nor so far-fetched. Suppression of [what] we
call "womens' rights", animal sacrifices, combat to the death...all
are in place already, actively being observed by various societies,
and *not* only ones which harken back to the aboriginal state of
man. The amenities we enjoy in the First and Second World are still
marvels in much of the Third World; so they are not by any means
necessary for the survival of a society. As for slavery? Well,
here's a report based on U.N. documents:

1996 After representatives from the American Anti-Slavery Group
testify before the US Congress about slavery in Mauritania, US
foreign aid to that country is cut.
1999 Despite being barred from entering the country the United
Nations collects sufficient evidence to condemn government-sponsored
slavery in Burma. The official report states that the Burmese
government "treat the civilian population as an unlimited pool of
unpaid forced laborers and servants at their disposal as part of a
political system built on the use of force and intimidation to deny
the people of Myanmar democracy and the rule of law."
1999 A consortium of non-governmental agencies calls for
international aid and a cease-fire in Sudan to help end slavery
there.
2003 Year that Pakistan has assured the United Nations that 'all
bonded labor will stop' in their country.

The link: http://www.freetheslaves.net/slavery_today/slavery.html

So, it exists in the real world as well, to the great approbation of
the civilized world."

and

"I am only saying that if "strict re-constructionism"
means restoring, in our own nation (when it is a physical
reality), "everything" that is "possible and practical", then really,
only slavery is well and truly out, and *only* because it would
hamper our relations with the rest of the world community (except
maybe Sudan and Mauritania). Under your definition, it is actually
a "Roman-themed club" that would *not* institute the rest, as they
are indeed both possible and practical (i.e., possible to be put into
practice). Like you, I am indeed thinking long-term, and looking
towards the day when we might actually have a passport with
the "SPQR" stamped on the cover; I am *not* making fun of strict re-
constructionists, but only trying to see if there might be a more
reasonable line we can draw as a compromise in hopes of that day.

I have to admit, for a minute, I had a vision of the mighty Legions
tromping down Madison Avenue :) ....cool...."

Of course, I was mocked because apparently there is no intent to
actually create an actual Nova Roma, i.e., a macronational entity. I
quote here Iunius Palladius' response (also from the archives):

"> First of all, it has *never* been nor *ever* will be the intention
of
> Nova Roma to create a macronational state. We will never have a
> military beyond reenactment legions for ceremonial duties and
> probably
> private security guards to guard the forum (quite likely not even
> citizens), subject to the laws of whatever nation it is located in.
> Any discussion of military forces is a strawman like slavery
because
> Nova Roma will never be in a position to do anything about having
> either.
>
> Perhaps this misunderstanding of Nova Roma's intentions is why you
> continue to bring up the strawmen in debate? Because of this
> misunderstanding these do not appear to be strawmen to you but they
> are in light of Nova Roma's goals.
>
> Vale et valete,

CATO: AHAH! OK, then, all this talk of "straw men" finally makes
sense. I was, indeed, under the impression that NR was to become,
eventually, an actual macronational state. This is my mistake and I
apologize profusely for it. I'm *not* crazy, I swear! So is it then
the intention of simply using this plot of land to build a Forum,
Senate House, temples, etc., then hang around dressed in togas? I'm
not being flippant, I'm *very* curious."


So my position has not changed, but your (Appollonius Cordus')
description of my position is clear, concise, and correct. And I'm
*still* very curious...

valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24843 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of Nova Roma, located here: http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html

Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:

We recognize the modern political realities which make the restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 6:57 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


G. Equitius Cato A. Appollonio Cordo D. Iunio Palladio S.P.D.

salvete, virii.

Appollonius, the way you have described the (for lack of a batter
term) " non-'practical and possible' " view is indeed what I mean.

Many many posts ago I went to great lengths regarding the slavery
issue; I showed that there are indeed macronations under whose thumb
involuntary servitude still exists, and the resultant outcry from the
United Nations, etc. I said that since there are concrete examples of
nations which still use slaves, that it is neither impossible (though
it *is* somewhat less practical) to create a Nova Roma in which
slavery exists. I quote my original post here:

"i.e., your definition of "strict re-construction"; I have merely
played them out to their logical conclusion. As I said earlier,
since many of the practices that we've mentioned are, in fact, *being
practiced currently* by nations in various places in the world, they
are neither exaggerated nor so far-fetched. Suppression of [what] we
call "womens' rights", animal sacrifices, combat to the death...all
are in place already, actively being observed by various societies,
and *not* only ones which harken back to the aboriginal state of
man. The amenities we enjoy in the First and Second World are still
marvels in much of the Third World; so they are not by any means
necessary for the survival of a society. As for slavery? Well,
here's a report based on U.N. documents:

1996 After representatives from the American Anti-Slavery Group
testify before the US Congress about slavery in Mauritania, US
foreign aid to that country is cut.
1999 Despite being barred from entering the country the United
Nations collects sufficient evidence to condemn government-sponsored
slavery in Burma. The official report states that the Burmese
government "treat the civilian population as an unlimited pool of
unpaid forced laborers and servants at their disposal as part of a
political system built on the use of force and intimidation to deny
the people of Myanmar democracy and the rule of law."
1999 A consortium of non-governmental agencies calls for
international aid and a cease-fire in Sudan to help end slavery
there.
2003 Year that Pakistan has assured the United Nations that 'all
bonded labor will stop' in their country.

The link: http://www.freetheslaves.net/slavery_today/slavery.html

So, it exists in the real world as well, to the great approbation of
the civilized world."

and

"I am only saying that if "strict re-constructionism"
means restoring, in our own nation (when it is a physical
reality), "everything" that is "possible and practical", then really,
only slavery is well and truly out, and *only* because it would
hamper our relations with the rest of the world community (except
maybe Sudan and Mauritania). Under your definition, it is actually
a "Roman-themed club" that would *not* institute the rest, as they
are indeed both possible and practical (i.e., possible to be put into
practice). Like you, I am indeed thinking long-term, and looking
towards the day when we might actually have a passport with
the "SPQR" stamped on the cover; I am *not* making fun of strict re-
constructionists, but only trying to see if there might be a more
reasonable line we can draw as a compromise in hopes of that day.

I have to admit, for a minute, I had a vision of the mighty Legions
tromping down Madison Avenue :) ....cool...."

Of course, I was mocked because apparently there is no intent to
actually create an actual Nova Roma, i.e., a macronational entity. I
quote here Iunius Palladius' response (also from the archives):

"> First of all, it has *never* been nor *ever* will be the intention
of
> Nova Roma to create a macronational state. We will never have a
> military beyond reenactment legions for ceremonial duties and
> probably
> private security guards to guard the forum (quite likely not even
> citizens), subject to the laws of whatever nation it is located in.
> Any discussion of military forces is a strawman like slavery
because
> Nova Roma will never be in a position to do anything about having
> either.
>
> Perhaps this misunderstanding of Nova Roma's intentions is why you
> continue to bring up the strawmen in debate? Because of this
> misunderstanding these do not appear to be strawmen to you but they
> are in light of Nova Roma's goals.
>
> Vale et valete,

CATO: AHAH! OK, then, all this talk of "straw men" finally makes
sense. I was, indeed, under the impression that NR was to become,
eventually, an actual macronational state. This is my mistake and I
apologize profusely for it. I'm *not* crazy, I swear! So is it then
the intention of simply using this plot of land to build a Forum,
Senate House, temples, etc., then hang around dressed in togas? I'm
not being flippant, I'm *very* curious."


So my position has not changed, but your (Appollonius Cordus')
description of my position is clear, concise, and correct. And I'm
*still* very curious...

valete,

Cato


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24844 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Salve,

You are confused again Cordus, You snipped out my citation of Livy on
the number of Censors, while you have yet to mention a source to back
up your view that the office was a Comstockian one.

Face it, this mostly vacant office couldn't have possibly fulfilled
the role of a Victorian Era Censor that you are attempting to
transform it into. No ammount of bluster on your part can remedy that
flaw in your presentation.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
> Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> > You do get rather snippy when you are caught in an
> > error, let alone a
> > whole series of them that you are attempting to
> > cover by a mixture of
> > acting condecending and hopping from one area to
> > another in an effort
> > to cover your tracks.
>
> What an excellent description, Senator, of your own
> behaviour. I'm afraid, though, that you have
> accidentally used the second person pronoun in place
> of the correct first person.
>
> Now that you have correctly understood where you've
> been going wrong, I'm sure we shall soon see a message
> from you in which you cite primary sources to support
> your view of the censorship.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24845 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator L. Sicinius
Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> You are confused again Cordus, You snipped out my
> citation of Livy on
> the number of Censors, while you have yet to mention
> a source to back
> up your view that the office was a Comstockian one.

Pardon me; I must admit that I overlooked your single,
solitary citation because it was so surrounded by
nonsense and because it wasn't a citation (you gave no
reference within Livy). I should be grateful if you
could provide a specific reference or quotation.

I shall provide an abundance of references for my
part, but if you don't mind I shall wait until Monday,
for I am away from home and thus from my books. Sadly
I lack the sort of mind which is capable of producing
chapter and verse references from memory; I think it
must be because so much of my mind is taken up by the
part which attempts to extract good sense from your
remarks - a difficult and complex task.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24846 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores
Salvete,

No it's not a strawman because the argument has been made that the
Nova Roman Censors should be releaved of their duties of conducting
the Census and maintaining the Albums so they can concetrate on their
alleged primary job of maintaining the public morals, with the
existance of the Lustrum ritual is being used as a religous basis for
the tranformation of the Nova Roman Office.

If this very ahistoric office of Censor is going to be created on
Religous grounds, (and with a very distorted misunderstanding of the
Religio's moral outlook) then it will in effect become a Religous
rather than a Secular office, and one that should be closed to
non-practitioners.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, labienus@n... wrote:
> Salvete Luci Sicini omnesque
>
> > I'm not the person who introduced the argument that the Religous
> > aspects of the Censors office are the most important thing he does.
>
> I don't care who introduced which argument. That's all beside the
point with
> respect to my previous message.
>
> > I asked for a clairifaction because it seems if conducting the Lustrum
> > Rituals is the most important aspect of the office then it only stands
> > to reason that the Censor should be a person who is capable of
> > personally fulfilling the most important task of his office.
>
> This is a straw man, plain and simple. Nova Roma has made
accomodations for
> magistrates who do not practice the Religio Romana. You knew that
when you
> posted. When the straw man is removed, all that remains is my
point--my *only*
> point--that the rites can and ought to be performed even when a non-
> practitioner is in office.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24847 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Nonsense?

Again with zilch to back up your assertation that the fact that the
office was vacant more than twice as often as it was filled is somehow
"nonsense".

While you are perusing the records search for bits that might point
towards a Comstockian Censors office I would suggest that you look at
the foreword to a book that deals with the 14th century CE, it
contains a bit of wisdom that should be remembered anytime you are
dealing with primary sources.

In the foreword to "A Distant Mirror", Barbra Tuchman mentioned that
she could pick up a modern newspaper full of stories of Rapes,
Murders, Armed Robberies, and other unpleasantries of modern times,
yet on her journey from her office to her home she didn't encounter
all of these things on a daily basis.

The Medevial Chroncliers she was consulting were like a modern
Newspaper, reporting on the unusual, the deviations from the norm,
rather than on the normal which was taken for granted, and this
concetration on these unusual events makes them seem far more common
than they actually were.

The same is true of ancient sources. The very fact that something is
reported shows that it's extraordinary rather than business as usual.
Remember that if you feel tempted to point out Plutarch's description
of Cato Censor's performance in office.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator L. Sicinius
> Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > You are confused again Cordus, You snipped out my
> > citation of Livy on
> > the number of Censors, while you have yet to mention
> > a source to back
> > up your view that the office was a Comstockian one.
>
> Pardon me; I must admit that I overlooked your single,
> solitary citation because it was so surrounded by
> nonsense and because it wasn't a citation (you gave no
> reference within Livy). I should be grateful if you
> could provide a specific reference or quotation.
>
> I shall provide an abundance of references for my
> part, but if you don't mind I shall wait until Monday,
> for I am away from home and thus from my books. Sadly
> I lack the sort of mind which is capable of producing
> chapter and verse references from memory; I think it
> must be because so much of my mind is taken up by the
> part which attempts to extract good sense from your
> remarks - a difficult and complex task.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24848 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve, Cornelius Sulla.

"Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign
state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world
capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the
form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."

Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that, sometime in
the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of Vatican
City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of
Nova Roma, located here:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
>
> Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
>
> We recognize the modern political realities which make the
restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the admistration
of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The
exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital is
to be determined.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24849 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> Again with zilch to back up your assertation that
> the fact that the
> office was vacant more than twice as often as it was
> filled is somehow
> "nonsense".

Senator, you have failed to read what I said. I did
not say that your report of Livy was nonsense; I said
that it was surrounded by nonsense.

It is very kind of you to give me tips on source
analysis, but you needn't worry; I have a degree in
ancient history from Oxford, and have been quite
adequately trained in source criticism by highly
reputable historians including Miriam Griffin, Peter
Derow, Robin Lane Fox, Bryan Ward-Perkins, Ed Bispham,
Olivier Hekster, John Ma, Maria Pretzler, Simon Price,
Nicholas Purcell, John Blair, Peter Heather, and Mark
Whittow. And if you haven't heard of any of them, you
need to read more history books.

It is also very kind of you to go out of your way to
emphasis to Senator Fortunatus that you don't really
understand what I'm proposing:

> ... the argument has been
> made that the
> Nova Roman Censors should be releaved of their
> duties of conducting
> the Census and maintaining the Albums so they can
> concetrate on their
> alleged primary job of maintaining the public
> morals...

I have never said anything about the censors being
relieved (or releaved, since they were not leaved in
the first place) of the duty to conduct the census or
maintain the roll of senators. I propose that they be
relieved of the administrative duties of processing
applications for citizenship, adoptions, name-changes,
and so on, which were nothing to do with the ancient
censorship.

As for your complaint that I have not produced any
evidence to back up my assertion, let me explain to
you how academic discussion works. If you wish to
argue against something which I say, the burden of
proof is on you, not on me. You must prove me wrong:
you have not done it yet. You have claimed the
existence of some evidence (you have not actually
cited the evidence) which would seem to suggest that
the lustrum could be omitted. Fair enough. This goes
no way toward disproving my assertion, which is that
the essential character of the censorship was moral,
religious, and supervisory, not clerical. But I shall
indeed produce evidence: I shall do it, as I have
said, on Monday or Tuesday, for until then I shall be
away from home and able to quote from no texts except
a wonderfully entertaining biography of Sir John
Gielgud by Sheridan Morley, which I have brought with
me, and which I recommend.





___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24850 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: Call
Excuse me your worship,

I Fails to realize that you have the exalted postion of being able to
make assertations with no citations, and that any who challenge Lord
Cordus have to provide a doctorial thesis to rebuke his worship's
uncited works.

So far all I have gotten from you is snotty nosed remarks rather than
even the most basic explanation of how an office that was vacant more
than 2/3 of the time was able to function in the Comstockian role that
you wish it to have.

YOU are the one making the claim that the ancient Censors office
functioned in a manner consistant with Victorian ideals, and so far
you have refused to cite anything to back up that claim other than a
condecending attitude.


Drusus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
> Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
> greetings.
>
> > Again with zilch to back up your assertation that
> > the fact that the
> > office was vacant more than twice as often as it was
> > filled is somehow
> > "nonsense".
>
> Senator, you have failed to read what I said. I did
> not say that your report of Livy was nonsense; I said
> that it was surrounded by nonsense.
>
> It is very kind of you to give me tips on source
> analysis, but you needn't worry; I have a degree in
> ancient history from Oxford, and have been quite
> adequately trained in source criticism by highly
> reputable historians including Miriam Griffin, Peter
> Derow, Robin Lane Fox, Bryan Ward-Perkins, Ed Bispham,
> Olivier Hekster, John Ma, Maria Pretzler, Simon Price,
> Nicholas Purcell, John Blair, Peter Heather, and Mark
> Whittow. And if you haven't heard of any of them, you
> need to read more history books.
>
> It is also very kind of you to go out of your way to
> emphasis to Senator Fortunatus that you don't really
> understand what I'm proposing:
>
> > ... the argument has been
> > made that the
> > Nova Roman Censors should be releaved of their
> > duties of conducting
> > the Census and maintaining the Albums so they can
> > concetrate on their
> > alleged primary job of maintaining the public
> > morals...
>
> I have never said anything about the censors being
> relieved (or releaved, since they were not leaved in
> the first place) of the duty to conduct the census or
> maintain the roll of senators. I propose that they be
> relieved of the administrative duties of processing
> applications for citizenship, adoptions, name-changes,
> and so on, which were nothing to do with the ancient
> censorship.
>
> As for your complaint that I have not produced any
> evidence to back up my assertion, let me explain to
> you how academic discussion works. If you wish to
> argue against something which I say, the burden of
> proof is on you, not on me. You must prove me wrong:
> you have not done it yet. You have claimed the
> existence of some evidence (you have not actually
> cited the evidence) which would seem to suggest that
> the lustrum could be omitted. Fair enough. This goes
> no way toward disproving my assertion, which is that
> the essential character of the censorship was moral,
> religious, and supervisory, not clerical. But I shall
> indeed produce evidence: I shall do it, as I have
> said, on Monday or Tuesday, for until then I shall be
> away from home and able to quote from no texts except
> a wonderfully entertaining biography of Sir John
> Gielgud by Sheridan Morley, which I have brought with
> me, and which I recommend.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24851 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

SENATUS

SENATUS The senate or council of elders (seniores: comp. the Greek
gerousia) ranked with the kingship, and the assembly of burgesses
among the oldest of Roman institutions, and, like the two latter,
existed also among the kindred communities of Latium (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 836, note 2). Its creation is ascribed by tradition to
Romulus (Liv. i. 8). The members of the senate were senatores. The
collective appellation patres (= chiefs rather than fathers )
belonged of right to the purely patrician senate of the earliest
days, but was transferred to the mixed patricio-plebeian body of
later times (Cicero, Sallust, and Livy, passim), and used as
equivalent to senatus. Similarly the two functions inherited by the
mixed senate from its patrician predecessor, the appointment [p. 621]
of the interrex, and the ratification of votes given by the assembly,
are always spoken of as acts of the patres, though in fact performed
by the senate as a whole. [For this and for Mommsen's rival theory,
that patres in these cases always meant only the patrician members of
the senate, see below.] The fact that the patrician patres had once
formed the whole senate, and that plebeians were not admitted until a
later time, was possibly commemorated by the official term patres
conscripti; the conscripti denoting originally the plebeian members
called up by the magistrate (Festus, p. 254; Liv. ii. 1; Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 839; Madvig, Verfass. i. 125. Willems, Le Sénat, i. 37
sqq., maintains on the contrary that the term means simply assembled
fathers. For Mommsen's view of the inferior position of the plebeian
conscripti, see below).

I. Number of the Senate. Roman tradition represents the senate as
consisting originally of 100 members (Liv. i. 8), and as having been
gradually enlarged to 300, though of the steps by which this increase
was effected it gives no consistent account. That 300 remained the
normal number down to the time of Sulla is generally agreed. From 81
B.C. to the dictatorship of Caesar, the nominal maximum was 600.
Under Caesar the numbers rose to 900 (Dio Cass. xliii. 47); under the
triumvirs to over 1000 (Suet. Aug. 35, erant enim super mille: cf.
Mon. Ancyr. 5, 6). Augustus reduced them once more to 600 (Suet. l.
c.; Dio Cass. liv. 13); but there is no proof that either by himself
or his successors was this limit strictly observed. [The advice given
by Maecenas to Augustus not to be particular as to the number of
senators (mêden peri tou plêthous autôn akribologoumenos, Dio Cass.
lii. 19) may be taken, with Mommsen, to represent the practice of
Dio's own time. See Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 850, note 3.]

II. Admission and expulsion of Senators.--It was a distinctive
peculiarity of the Roman senate, that admission to its ranks was
always given, not by popular election or by cooptation, but by the
act of the magistrate, who has for the time being the authority
legere in senatuzm; and though, as will be shown, his freedom of
choice was under the later Republic so restricted by law as to reduce
the lectio senatus to little more than the formal enrolment of
persons with a legal claim to be enrolled, yet his action continued
to be indispensable (Val. Max. ii. 3, 1), and under the Empire
regained much of its original liberty. The two principles that the
senate was only a council of advice for the magistrate, and that the
magistrate selected his councillors, though modified in practice by
the anxiety of the senate to assert its independence, were never
formally abandoned, and were successfully re-asserted by the Caesars.
Prof. Mommsen indeed has a theory that in pre-historic times the case
was otherwise, and that the original senate, as consisting of the
assembled heads (patres) of the patrician gentes, was independent as
to its composition of the authority of the magistrate (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 844, 854). That the early senate was composed
exclusively of patricians may be safely assumed. It is, moreover,
probable that from this original and close connexion with the gentes
were derived the claims which the patrician senate bequeathed to its
patricio-plebeian successor to be the special guardians of the
auspicia, and of the ancient order of things bound up with them. But
of a strictly representative gentile council there is, as Mommsen
himself confesses, no evidence. The senate as first known to us
appears as a council composed of patricians, but of patricians
selected by the chief magistrate [Liv. i. 8, Romulus centum creat
senatores. Willems' theory (Le Sénat, i. 26) that the senate was
originally a réunion de tous les patres familiarum seniores des
familles patriciennes, and that subsequently le choix royal succéda
au droit d'hérédité, is an equally unfounded and a less plausible
conjecture].

Starting from the earliest system known to us, that under which the
senators were chosen by the magistrate, we have to consider, (1) to
what magistrates this right of choice was successively granted; (2)
by what conditions, legal or customary, the choice was limited; and
(3) the mode in which the lectio senatus was carried out.

(1.) The prerogative of choosing senators belonged at first to the
king. From the king it passed to the consuls, and was during a brief
period granted to their temporary substitutes, the tribuni militum
consulari potestate (Festus, p. 246, ut reges sibi legebant,
sublegebantque quos in consilio publico haberent, ita post exactos
eos consules quoque et tribuni militum consulari potestate
conjunctissimos sibi quosque patriciorum et deinde plebeiorum
legebant ). The date at which it was transferred to the censors is
uncertain. That the change was not made before 387 A.U.C. = 367 B.C.,
the last year in which consular tribunes were appointed, is implied
in the passage quoted above from Festus; and it was not therefore
coeval with the institution of the censorship itself (443 B.C.).
According to the same passage, it was effected by a Lex Ovinia
tribunicia: donec Ovinia tribunicia intercessit qua sanctum est ut
censores ex omni ordine optimum quemque curiatim (sic) in senatum
legerent; and may be assumed to have been, as such, made in the
interest of the plebs. We may consequently place it after the passing
of the Lex Publilia (339 B.C.), which enacted that one censor must be
a plebeian (Liv. viii. 12), since a tribune of the plebs at that
period would not have been likely to entrust the choice of senators
to patrician magistrates. The first recorded lectio senatus by
censors is the famous one in the censorship of Appius Claudius Caecus
(312 B.C.; Liv. ix. 29), so that the Lex Ovinia and the transference
of the lectio senatus to the censors may be assigned to some date
between 339 B.C. and 312 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 395; Willems, i.
155). With the censors the duty remained down to the close of the
Republic, though on two occasions it was entrusted, as an exceptional
measure, to a dictator. In 216 B.C., after the battle of Cannae, M.
Fabius Buteo was created dictator for this purpose (Liv. xxiii. 22,
qui senatum legeret ); and Sulla exercised the prerogative as
dictator in 81 B.C. (Appian, B.C. i. 100). Both Julius Caesar and the
triumvirs selected senators in virtue of the extraordinary powers
vested in them. Augustus, true to his general policy, made a partial
return to the old practice. Although the censorship proper ceased to
exist, and the creation of senators devolved upon the princeps, the
old [p. 622] connexion between this act and the censorial authority
was not entirely lost sight of. Of the three regular lectiones
senatus held by Augustus (Mon. Ancyr. ii. 1, senatum ter legi ), the
first certainly and the two others probably coincided with the three
census of Roman citizens taken by him in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and 14 A.D.
Moreover, though under Augustus and his successors both the calling
up into the senate of persons legally qualified by the tenure of the
quaestorship, and the removal from the list of the names of such
senators as had died or proved themselves unworthy, took place
annually and quite independently of any censorial authority, the
direct admission (adlectio) of men freely selected by Caesar was a
power only occasionally exercised in the first century and always in
virtue of the censorial authority, e. g. by Claudius, Vespasian, and
Titus (C. I. L. v. 3117; Orelli, 3659; Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 877,
iii. 857). Domitian, as censor for life, first exercised it
continuously. From his time onwards the right was possessed and used
by all emperors at their discretion, and without any reference to
censorial authority as a power inherent in the imperial prerogative
(Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 857).

(2.) The old constitution left the king or consul free to choose as
senators the men he thought best fitted for the post. Full
citizenship, free birth (ingenuitas), and good character were no
doubt always indispensable for a seat in the senate as for a
magistracy; but although custom may have limited the choice of the
king to patricians, there is no proof that he was prohibited by law
from admitting plebeians; and the admission of the latter is
represented in tradition as the free act of the king or consul, not
as the consequence of special legislation. [Liv. ii. 1. Mommsen's
theory, that originally a seat in the senate was an exclusively
patrician privilege (Staatsr. iii. 870), must stand or fall with his
hypothesis mentioned above, of a time when the senate was a
representative council of the gentes. As he confesses himself, no
traces are discoverable of any formal representation in the senate of
the gentes or curiae.] The classical passage in Festus describes the
kings and consuls as choosing freely: conjunctissimos sibi
quosque . . . legebant; so that to be passed over inflicted no
disgrace, praeteriti senatores in opprobrio non erant (Id. ib.). Even
by the Lex Ovinia the censors were directed to choose ex omni ordine
optimum quemque; and Cicero declares (pro Sest. 65, 137) that the
original intention of the constitution was, that the senate should be
open omnium civium industriae ac virtuti. But this early freedom of
choice was gradually restricted. It is probable that the consuls at
the end of their year of office had always a claim to be enrolled as
senators, and we may assume that this privilege was conceded from the
first to praetores. When, owing to the transference of the lectio
senatus to the censors, the revision of the senatorial list took
place not annually but quinquennially, the ex-magistrates who had a
claim to be enrolled were permitted, after the end of their year of
office and while waiting for the next quinquennial lectio, to enter
the senate-house, and though not yet senators to give their
sententiae with the rest. Hence the distinction drawn between
senatores and those quibus in senatu sententiam dicere licet. (Liv.
xxiii. 32; Fest. p. 339; Varro, ap. Gell. iii. 18, qui nondum a
censoribus in senatum lecti, senatores non erant, sed quia honoribus
populi usi erant, in senatum veniebant, et sententiae jus habebant. )
The number of magistracies carrying this privilege increased as time
went on. By 216 B.C. it had evidently been extended to the curule
aedileship, since Livy, in describing the lectio of that exceptional
year, plainly includes the curule aedileship among the offices which
entitled their holders to a seat in the senate (Liv. xxii. 49, unde
in senatum legi deberent, xxiii. 23; and Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 860,
note 3). On the other hand, the minor magistracies, the plebeian
aedileship, tribunate, and quaestorship gave no such right as yet;
although, as we might expect, former holders of these offices were
selected next to ex-curule magistrates, and before such private
citizens as had distinguished themselves in war: primum in
demortuorum locum legit, qui post L. Aemilium, C. Flaminium censores
curulem magistratum cepissent, necdum in senatum lecti essent . . .
tum legit qui aediles, tribuni plebis, quaestoresve fuerant; tum ex
iis qui magistratus non cepissent, qui spolia ex hoste fixa domi
haberent aut civicam coronam accepissent (Liv. xxiii. 23). By Sulla's
time, if not before, the customary preference hitherto given to ex-
holders of the plebeian aedileship and tribuneship had been exchanged
for a legal claim both to the provisional seat and jus sententiae in
the senate, pending the next censorial lectio, and to formal
enrolment as senators when the time for the lectio arrived. [These
privileges were apparently given to the tribunes by the plebiscitum
Atinium (Gell. xiv. 8, 2, senatores non essent ante Atinium
plebiscitum ), the date of which must fall, according to Mommsen,
between 123 B.C. and 102 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 862, note 2).
When the plebeian aediles obtained them is uncertain. Mommsen infers,
from their inclusion in the Lex Acilia among those quei in senatu
sient, that they had done so before 122 B.C. (ib. 861, note 2).]
Finally, the same rights were attached to the quaestorship by Sulla
(Tac. Ann. xi. 22, viginti quaestores creati supplendo senatui ). But
these rights had long lost all value for the holders of the higher
offices; since, owing to the gradual establishment of a fixed order
of succession to these posts, a man was presumably already a senator
by the time that he reached even the lowest curule magistracy. After
Sulla, they were of importance only for the quaestorship, which was
then legally established as the first step in the ladder of
promotion. As a rule even the tribunate was taken after the
quaestorship, and its holders were consequently already senators. The
effect of these changes was practically to destroy the magistrate's
freedom of choice. He still created senators, but as a rule the
number of ex-quaestors awaiting his call, and with a legal claim to
be called, must have been sufficient to fill the vacancies, and have
left no room for others. Of senators admitted by free selection of
the magistrate, there is no trace after 70 B.C., until we reach the
dictatorship of Caesar. The votes of the people in Comitia in fact
gave admission to the senate. (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153, [p. 623]
judicio populi Romani in amplissimum locum pervenire. ) But the call
of the magistrate was still indispensable; and with the Empire it
became once more a reality. The quaestorship still retained its right
to give a seat; and it is true that the transference of the elections
for the quaestorship to the senate by Tiberius gave that body in
appearance a complete control over its own composition, and
substituted cooptation both for the free choice of the magistrate and
for the votes of the people. But it was only in appearance; for,
apart from the influence which his control of the quaestorian
elections gave him, the emperor possessed and exercised the old right
of direct admission, now known as adlectio, possibly to distinguish
it from the old periodic lectiones of republican times (Mommsen,
Staatsr. ii. 877, note). This right, used occasionally (see above) by
the earlier emperors, was from the reign of Nerva onwards constantly
exercised. The person so admitted was assigned a definite place on
the roll, usually inter tribunicios, occasionally inter praetorios,
and in the 3rd century even inter consulares; this titular rank
counting as equivalent to the actual tenure of the office itself. The
increasing frequency of these adlectiones indicates the use of the
method as a means of strengthening the emperor's hold over the
senate, and of promoting his friends and protégés (Mommsen, Staatsr.
ii. 877 sqq.; Vita Pert. 6, cum Commodus adlectionibus innumeris
praetorios miscuisset; Vita Marci, 10, multos ex amicis adlegit ).

No qualification of age or property was originally fixed by law for a
seat in the senate; but from the time when election to the
quaestorship became the normal mode of entry into the senate, the
legal age for this office became practically that for the senate
also. Under the later Republic it was consequently thirty; from the
time of Augustus onwards, twenty-five (Dio Cass. lii. 20; QUAESTOR).
A property qualification was first introduced by Augustus, who fixed
it at one million sesterces (Dio Cass. liv. 17; Suet. Aug. 41; Tac.
Ann. i. 75, ii. 37). Under Trajan, all candidates for office, and
therefore for a seat in the senate, were compelled to invest a third
of their property in Italian land (Plin. Epp. vi. 19). This
proportion was reduced to a fourth by M. Aurelius (Vit. 11).

It should lastly be mentioned that in the early days of the Empire
the Roman franchise was given to Gauls (Tac. Ann. xi. 23), and
possibly to other provincials, without the right of standing for
office in Rome (jus honorum; and to such men, therefore, unless
directly admitted by the emperor, the senate-house was closed. But of
this special disability no trace is found after the reign of Claudius.

With the right of creating senators was closely connected that of
removing them (loco movere), or omitting them from the revised list
(praeterire). Of the mode in which it was exercised by the kings and
consuls we know nothing beyond the statement in Festus, that,
inasmuch as the magistrate then drew up the list as he chose, no
stigma attached to those whose names were left out (Festus, p. 246:
see above). It is easy to understand that the senate would resent
being so completely at the magistrate's mercy; and the Lex Ovinia,
carried as it was when the senate was slowly establishing its
ascendancy (339-312 B.C.), seems to have given greater security to
the senator's tenure of his seat. By transferring the revision of the
list to the censors, it substituted a quinquennial for an annual
revision; and though the removal or omission of a name henceforward
inflicted disgrace, this was probably due in part to the fact that
the censors, possibly under a clause of the law, were obliged not
only to be agreed in doing so (App. i. 28; Liv. xl. 51; Cic. pro
Cluent. 43, 122), but to state in writing their reasons for
inflicting the penalty (Ascon. in tog. Cand. p. 84; Liv. xxxix. 42,
adscriberent notas ). The power was no doubt abused more than once
for party or personal purposes, but in the main the evidence points
to the conclusion that the arrangement gave a senator fixity of
tenure, unless he were guilty of some act, or had incurred some
public disgrace, which by law or custom disqualified him for sitting
in the senate (e. g. deprivation of his office for misconduct, loss
of civic rights, conviction in certain cases in a court of justice,
gross immorality, extravagance, &c.). After 70 B.C., when the censors
expelled a number of the unworthy members placed on the list possibly
by Sulla, the power of expulsion or omission remained in abeyance
(Sull., Cat. 23, gives an instance, belonging to 70 B.C.), though
Cicero in the Laws advocates its revival ( probrum in senatu ne
relinquunto, de Legg. iii. 3, 7). Under the Empire it came again into
exercise. The thorough purgings of the overgrown senate by Augustus
in 29-28 B.C., and again in 18 B.C., were no doubt exceptional (Suet.
Aug. 35; Dio Cass. lii. 42, liv. 12), as was that carried out by
Vespasian after the civil wars of 69 A.D. (Suet. Vesp. 9, summotis
indignissimis ). But alike at the periodic lectiones held by
Claudius, Vespasian, and Titus as censors, and at the yearly revision
of the senatorial list, not only were the names removed of those who
had vacated their seats by death, by loss of the necessary property
qualification (unless the loss, as frequently happened, was made good
by the emperor: Tac. Ann. i. 75, ii. 37, xiii. 34; Suet. Nero, 10),
or by condemnation in a court of law; but those were also expelled
who for one. reason or another were held by the emperor to be
unworthy (Ann. ii. 48, prodigos et ob flagitia egentes; iv. 42, quod
in acta d. Augusti non juraverat; xi. 25, famosos; Suet. Domit. 8,
quod gesticulandi saltandique studio tenleretur: the alternative of
voluntary, withdrawal was sometimes given, Ann. ii. 48). This power
of removal, exercised as it was with increasing freedom and even
arbitrariness as time went on, combined with the more frequent use of
the right of adlectio completely to destroy that practical
independence of magisterial control which the republican senate had
gradually won for itself. The senate under the Principate became
again what it must have been in early days--a body of councillors,
largely selected by the chief magistrate at his discretion, and
retaining their seats at his good pleasure.

(3.) The mode in which the lectio or revision of the list was carried
out has next to be described. Our knowledge of this commences with
the period when the revision of the senate was in the hands of the
censors, i. e. at the earliest after 339 B.C. Although the lectio
senatus was not apparently an integral part of the census, like [p.
624] the recognitio equitnm (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 396, and so
Willems), it seems to have immediately preceded it (Liv. xxiv. 18;
xxvii. 11, &c.). It was conducted usually by both censors jointly
(Liv. xxxii. 7, xl. 50; Willems, i. 241), though on one occasion at
least it was decided by lot which of the two should undertake the
work (Liv. xxvii. 11, sors legendi ). The first point, down to 81
B.C., was to select the senator whose name should stand at the head
of the list as princeps senatus and enjoy the privilege of giving his
sententia first. This honour belonged by ancient custom to the oldest
patrician censorius (Liv. l. c.; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 970). After
209 B.C. any patrician censorius might be chosen irrespective of
seniority. From the time of Sulla onwards, it is not clear that any
princeps senatus in the old sense was appointed: the list in the
Ciceronian age was possibly headed by the senior consular, and at any
rate the post, if it survived at all, must have been deprived of most
of its importance by the change made in the order of taking the
sententiae, which took away from the princeps the privilege of being
asked first (Varro, ap. Gell. xiv. 7; Willems, i. 114, maintains not
only that principes senatus existed after Sulla, but that they were
no longer necessarily patricians. Indeed, the three whose names he
gives--Q. Lutatius Catulus, P. Servilius Vatia, and Cicero--were all
plebeians. But his arguments are not conclusive). Under the Empire,
the emperors, following the example of Augustus (Mon. Anc. Gk. 4, 2,
prôton axiômatos topon tês sunklêtou), placed their own names at the
head of the list, though only in the case of Pertinax (Dio Cass.
lxxiii. 4) was the old title princeps senatus revived. The princeps
senatus chosen, the old list of the senate was gone through, the
names of deceased members or of those legally disqualified struck
out, those who had risen to higher office in the interval placed in
their proper position; and finally, any whom the censors judged
unfit, struck off the roll. the lectio of 216 B.C. there were no such
erasions, but this was exceptional (Liv. xxiii. 23).] The vacancies
were then filled up according to the order described above, though
here again the censors might pass over one or more of the legally
qualified claimants. In the completed list the senators were arranged
according to their official rank, from the dictatorii and censorii
down to the quaestorii; those, if there were any, who had held no
office, being no doubt placed last. Down to the time of Sulla, the
patricians in each magisterial category took precedence of the
plebeians; in the post-Sullan period, the members of each category
were arranged simply by official seniority (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii.
968; Willems, i. 259). Under the Empire a senator might obtain
precedence by the grant of the jus trium liberorum, and earlier still
by the successful prosecution in a public court of a senator higher
in rank than himself, whose place he took (Mommsen, l. c. 971; Dio
Cass. xxxvi. 40). Those persons directly admitted (adlecti) by the
emperor, among the praetorii or tribunicii, were properly placed
below the genuine ex-praetors or ex-tribunes (Vit. Pertin. 6). The
list when made up was in Republican times read aloud from the rostra
(Liv. xxiii. 23); under the Empire it was regularly published (Dio
Cass. lv. 3). It held good until the next revision, i. e. under the
Republic, until the next censors came into office. Under the Empire
the revision was annual (Dio Cass. l. c.). The official name for the
list, album senatorium, first occurs in Tacitus (Ann. iv. 42).

III. Composition and Character of the Senate.--The first important
change in the composition of the senate must have been effected by
the admission of plebeians--a measure ascribed by tradition to
Brutus, and certainly anterior to their admission to the consulship.
With the opening of the magistracies to plebeians, and the additions
made to the list of magistracies giving a legal claim to a seat, the
plebeian element in the senate grew in strength; and at the close of
the Punic wars largely outnumbered the patrician. (See the
calculations made by Willems, i. pp. 285 sqq.) The question then
arises, how far any distinction was maintained as regards rights and
privileges between these two elements? That the interrex was
necessarily, and the princeps senatus customarily, a patrician, is
certain (see above and art. INTERREX), as also that on the roll
patrician senators took precedence of plebeian senators of equal
official rank. But on two points there is a division of opinion: (1)
Were the functions of appointing the interrex (prodere interregem)
and of ratifying votes of the assembly (patrum auctoritas) reserved
exclusively for patrician senators? (2) Were plebeian senators at any
time without the right sententiam dicere? The first question is
answered in the affirmative by Mommsen (Röm. Forschungen, i. 218;
Staatsr. iii. 871) and Madvig (Verfass. i. 233, 496); in the negative
by Willems (ii. 1 and 33. See also INTERREX). The difficulty. in the
way of a decision is increased by the ambiguous sense in which the
term patres is used by ancient writers, and by the fact that while
the appointment of interreges had become extremely rare during the
period to which our best authorities (Cicero, Livy) belong, the
patrum auctoritas had long before that time been reduced to a
meaningless form (by the Lex Publilia, 339 B.C.). The most probable
view on the whole seems to be that, while both acts belonged
originally to the senate as a purely patrician body, they were in
later times performed by the patricio-plebeian senate as a whole.
[Cf. the extension of the term patres to cover the whole senate, and
the retention of the phrase patricii magistratus for the curule
offices long after these had been opened to plebeians (Cic. ad Brut.
i. 5). It is only in connexion with the three earliest interregna
under the Republic that Livy speaks of patricii (iii. 40, iv. 7, iv.
43: 421 B.C.). On later occasions he speaks always of patres, as does
Cicero throughout The patrum auctoritas is never expressly connected
with the patricii. For a full discussion, see Willems, l. c., and
INTERREX] The second question admits of a more confident answer. It
is agreed on all hands that in post-Sullan times no distinction is
traceable between patricians and plebeians as regards the right
sententiam dicere, and that the term pedarii had no legal value, but
merely denoted the lower ranks of senators (i. e. in fact the non-
curules), whose names, from want of time, were rarely reached in
taking the sententiae, and who were therefore, as a rule, obliged
pedibus ire in sententiam, [p. 625] i.e. to cross to one side or the
other of the senate-house. [Gell. iii. 18, qui in alienam sententiam
pedibus irent. The explanation of the term quoted in the same passage
from Gavius Bassus (1st century A.D.), Senatores qui magistratum
curulem nondum cepissent pedibus itavisse in curiam, though in fact
non-curules and pedarii coincide, is a bad guess, which, strangely
enough, Willems accepts (op. cit. i. 137). The confusion which
follows between the pedarii and the ex-curule magistrates nondum a
censoribus lecti is probably due to Gellius himself. The latter class
were not senators, but had the jus sententiae dicendae; the pedarii
were senators, but in practice were unable sententiam dicere. The
confusion is repeated in Lewis and Shortt's Latin Dict. The sense of
inferiority associated with the pedarii in the senate sufficiently
explains the equites pedarii of Varro (=common or inferior equites).]

But Mommsen, while agreeing that in the Ciceronian age pedarius was
merely a conventional epithet describing the actual but not the legal
position of the lower senators, holds that in earlier times the term
had a statutable meaning, and denoted plebeian senators directly
admitted by consuls or censors, as distinct from those qualified by
office --a class which ceased to exist after 81 B.C. These plebeian
senators were, he thinks, legally incapable of delivering sententiae,
and only allowed to vote (pedibus ire). The objections to this theory
are: (1) That no such distinction can be drawn between the right
sententiam dicere and the right to vote. For the Roman senator, the
sententia and the vote were the same thing, though the sententia
might be given in different ways, of which the pedibus ire was one
[see below under Procedure]. (2) That though there were certainly at
one time men in the senate with the jus sententiae who were not
senators, there is no evidence of the existence at any time of
senators without this right. (3) There is no proof that there was
ever a legally distinct class of pedarii, or that the term had ever
any other meaning than that which it bore in the Ciceronian age.

The admission of plebeians has been assigned to the early days of the
Republic; the period from the Lex Ovinia to the dictatorship of Sulla
witnessed another change which stood in close connexion with the
growing ascendancy of the senate in the political system. The class
of senators freely chosen by the magistrate as distinct from those
whom election to office had given a legal claim on his call,
gradually disappeared (Cic. de Legg. iii. 1. 2, neminem in summum
locum nisi per populum venire ), and the senate came to be composed
entirely of actual and ex-officials, to the exclusion of lay
interests and opinions--an exclusiveness intensified by the extent to
which from 200 B.C. onwards the official class was recruited from a
single section of Roman society, that of the nobiles. In Cicero's day
the only working classification of senators was classification by
official rank.

Further changes followed under the Empire. The class of those who,
while awaiting the next lectio, were permitted to sit in the senate
and give sententiae (see above), must have ceased to exist, when the
yearly revision enabled the emperor to call them up immediately on
the expiry of their year of office. On the other hand, though the
official classification continued, and even those directly adlecti by
Caesar were placed in one official category or another, and though
the majority of senators as a rule entered by the old official door,
the quaestorship, the increasing number of the adlecti unquestionably
served not only to strengthen the emperor's control over the senate,
but to widen the area from which its members were drawn. The effect
of Vespasian's admission of numerous Italians and provincials is
specially noticed by Tacitus (Ann. iii. 55, novi homines e municipiis
et coloniis atque etiam provinciis--domesticam parsimoniam
intulerunt. Senators from the eastern provinces are very rare before
the 2nd century). But while in this way the senate became in its
composition more representative of the whole Empire, a narrowing
effect was exercised by the tendency to confine the senatorial
dignity to a particular class, by making it hereditary. The way for
this latter change was prepared in the last century of the Republic.
In the time of Cicero, the male members of the great families passed
into the senate through the quaestorship, almost as a matter of
course. The son of a senator was expected and as a rule did thus
qualify himself for senatorial rank; and Cicero contrasts the
senatorial and official career proper to young nobles, with the
quieter and less ambitious course marked out by custom for members of
the equestrian order (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153). But as yet the son
of a senator had no legal claim to be himself a senator, nor did he
as such enjoy any legal distinctions or privileges. Even the phrase
ordo senatorius is usually limited in meaning to the actual senate
(Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 459). Julius, it is true, extended the
restriction on foreign travel from senators to their sons (Suet. Jul.
42); but from Augustus dates the first attempt to make the senatorial
dignity formally hereditary, and to give the ordo senatorius, as
distinct from the senate, a legal existence. According to his
regulations, the sons of senators were authorised to assume the broad
stripe (latus clavus) on the assumption of the toga virilis, and to
attend meetings of the senate (a revival of an ancient custom, Gell.
i. 23). They entered the army as tribuni militum or praefecti alarum,
and were distinguished from other young officers as laticlavii (Suet.
Aug. 38, liberis senatorum, quo celerius reipublicae assuescerent,
protinus a virili toga, latum clavum induere et curiae interesse
permisit, militiamque auspicantibus non tribunatum modo legionum, sed
et praefecturas alarum dedit . . . binos plerumque laticlavios
praeposuit singulis alis. The ordinary trib. mil. were angusticlavii,
Suet. Otho, 10). From military service they passed on to the
quaestorship and a seat in the senate. That under the earlier
emperors this career was morally incumbent both on senators' sons and
on other young men, to whom the emperor had granted the latus clavus,
seems certain (they are described as honores petituri: Plin. Ep.
viii. 14; Dio Cass. lix. 10, epi têi tês boulês elpidi), but there is
no proof that in the 1st century A.D. it was legally necessary. [We
hear of several cases in which a man either declines to assume the
latus clavus, or discards [p. 626] it after a time. Suet. Vesp. 2,
latum clavum din aversatus (Vespasian); Tac. Ann. xvi. 17, Mela
petitione honorum abstinuerat; Hist. ii. 86, prima juventa senatorium
ordinem exuerat; Ovid, Trist. iv. 10, 35. Claudius, however, as
censor took a strict view of the obligation (Suet. Claud. 24,
senatoriam dignitatem recusantibus equestrem quoque ademit. Augustus,
at the lectio, in B.C. 13, compelled qualified persons under 35
bouleusai (Dio Cass. liv. 26).] A further illustration of the same
policy is the enactment due to Augustus prohibiting both senators and
their sons from marriage with libertinae (Lex Papia Poppaea, Dig. 23,
2, 23). The development of the policy by the emperors of the 2nd
century cannot be traced in detail. At the close of that century,
however, we find the two orders, senatorial and equestrian, clearly
and sharply distinguished. Each has its own privileges. The careers
appropriate to the members of each order are different, and the
passage from one to the other difficult and rarely made. [EQUITES;
PRINCIPATUS; PROCURATOR.] Suetonius already contrasts senatoria et
equestria officia, Galb. 15; cf. Vita Commodi, 4, per laticlavi
honorem a praefecturae (sc. praetorio, an equestrian office)
administratione summovit. By the lawyers of the early part of the 3rd
century senatorial rank is treated as strictly hereditary. Not only
the sons, but the grandsons of senators are born into the senatorial
order, and cannot escape either the honours or the burdens attached
to the dignitas senatoria. Neither posthumous birth, nor adoption
into a family of lower rank, affects their position (Dig. 7, 35, 9,
7). As Mommsen has well said (Staatsr. iii. 467), the senatorial
order took the place as a hereditary nobility of the nobiles of the
later Republic, as they had in their turn superseded the patriciate.
[For the distinctive privileges and liabilities of the senatorial
order as thus constituted, see the next section;--for its general
position, cf. Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 865, iii. 466; Madvig, Verf. i.
123 sqq.; Friedländer, Sittengesch. i. 197 sqq.]

IV. Insignia, Privileges, &c.--In Republican times the senator bore
no distinctive title, for senator Romanus was never like eques
Romanus in official use. The title of courtesy clarissimus, though
not unfrequently applied to senators at an early date, was first
formally assigned to them in the 2nd century A.D. (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 565), and then or soon afterwards extended not only to their
sons, but to their wives and daughters. The outward insignia of the
senator were always the broad purple stripe on the tunic (latus
clavus) and the red sandals (calcei) with the crescent-shaped buckle
(luna), and the leathern thongs wound round the leg (lora). The
former of these insignia was possibly not older than the Gracchan
period (sero, Plin. H. N. xxxiii. § 29); the latter were originally
the distinctive mark of the patrician. Under the Empire the latus
clavus was assumed by a senator's son on reaching manhood; while the
red sandals were worn even in childhood (Stat. Silv. v. 2, 28).
Separate seats in the theatre were first assigned to senators in 194
B.C. (Liv. xxxiv. 44), and at the shows in the circus by Claudius
(Suet. Claud. 21). A variety of fresh distinctions were conceded as
the senatorial order under the Empire increasingly assumed the
character of a hereditary peerage, e. g. the right of entrée to the
imperial presence (Dio Cass. lvii. 11), and of banquets at the public
cost (Suet. Aug. 35), the use of covered carriages by their wives
(Dio Cass. lvii. 15), of silver plating upon their own vehicles (Vit.
Sev. Alex. 43), and of running footmen (cursores, Vit. Aurel. 49). In
the 3rd century A.D., and probably earlier still, they were exempt
from all burdens, though still eligible for honores in their own
municipia (Dig. 50, 1, 23, municeps esse desinit senatoriam adeptus
dignitatem, quantum ad munera: quantum vero ad honorem, retinere
creditur originem; cf. the omission in inscriptions of senators of
their place of domicile; see Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 2, 887, note 1).
Though subject, like other citizens, to the ordinary law, they were
outside the jurisdiction of municipal authorities. From Hadrian dated
the custom for the emperor to summon only senatorial assessors to sit
with him in judgment on a senator (Vit. Hadr. 8), a practice revived
by Severus Alexander (Vit. 21, ne quis non senator de Romano senatore
judicaret ). But the increased outward dignity of their position
under the Empire brought with it not only increased risk under the
worse emperors, but increased liabilities and restrictions. Their
exclusion from trade and from taking state contracts, as also their
liability and that of their sons to prosecution under the leges de
repetundis, date from republican times (Lex Claudia, Liv. xxi. 63:
cf. Dig. 50, 5; Lex Acilia de pec. repet. 2; Bruns, Fontes jur. Rom.
54; Cic. pro Cluent. 55, 150). In addition, Severus Alexander forbade
them to lend money except at a low rate of interest (Vit. 26). The
prohibition issued in Tiberius' reign against intercourse with stage-
buffoons (Ann. i. 77) was, like that against marriage with
libertinae, intended to preserve the dignity of the order. But
Claudius's edict forbidding praetorian guardsmen to attend the
morning levees of senators (Suet. Claud. 25) was no doubt provoked by
the same jealousy of senatorial interference with the army, which
finally led to their exclusion from military commands and from the
camps by Gallienus (Victor. Caes. 33). The separate taxation of
senators did not exist as a system before Diocletian (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 2, 900 f.). The costly obligation of providing games
was a magisterial rather than a senatorial burden. [LUDI; PRAETOR;
QUAESTOR. For the privilege originally enjoyed by senators of voting
in the equitum centuriae, and for their duty of serving as judices in
the quaestiones perpetuae, see COMITIA; JUDEX; QUAESTIO.]

V. Procedure.--The right to hold a meeting of the senate (senatum
habere), to consult it (consulere, referre, relationem facere), and
to carry a decree (senatusconsultum facere) belonged in the
Ciceronian age to consuls, praetors, and tribunes of the plebs; but
if all were present in Rome together, they could only exercise it in
the above order of precedence. The right no doubt attached to the
consulship and praetorship from the moment of their establishment. It
was acquired by the tribunate at some period previous to the
plebiscitum Atinium (? before 133 B.C.). The right was also given to
the dictator, interrex, [p. 627] and praefectus urbi. [See the
classical passage, Gell. xiv. 7, 8, Primum ibi ponit (Varro) per quos
more majorum senatus haberi soleret, eosque nominat, dictatorem,
consules, praetores, tribunos plebi, interregem, praefectum
urbi . . . tribunis plebi senatus habendi jus erat quamquam senatores
non essent ante Atinium plebiscitum. ] Any one of these magistrates
could be prevented from exercising the right by the interference of a
colleague, or of a superior, or of a tribune. [INTERCESSIO;
TRIBUNUS.] In the earlier times, when the consuls were frequently
absent from Rome in the field, the duty of convening the senate
constantly developed upon the praetor urbanus (Liv. xxii. 7; xxvi.
21; xlii. 8, &c.). In the Ciceronian age, it is regularly performed
by the consuls (Cic. ad Fam. xii. 2. 8; CONSUL). Augustus in 23 B.C.
was specially empowered to hold a senate as often as he would, even
when not consul (Dio Cass. liv. 3), and the power was continued to
his successors (Lex de Imp. Vesp. 2, utique ei senatum habere . . . .
liceat, ita uti licuit divo Augusto, &c. Tiberius before he was
formally invested with this power convened the senate tribuniciae
potestatis praescriptione sub Augusto acceptae, Tac. Ann. i. 7). But
even under the emperors it was usually the consuls who convened the
senate and presided at its meetings (Plin. Epp. ii. 11, princeps
praesidebat erat enim consul; cf. Id. Paneg. 76).

The magistrate who convened the senate determined also the place of
meeting, subject, however, to certain conditions. A lawful senate
could only be held in a templum, and, except in special cases, within
the pomerium (Gell. xiv. 7, in loco per augurem constituto, quod
templum appellaretur: see TEMPLUM). Among the ordinary meeting-places
of the senate in republican times were the Curia Hostilia and the
temples of Concord, of Castor, of Jupiter Stator, and of Tellus. The
senate could be convened outside the pomerium, but intra milia
passuum, if either embassies from states not in alliance with Rome or
a pro-magistrate [PROCONSUL; PROPRAETOR] were to take part in the
proceedings (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii., 930. As meeting-places outside
the pomerium, the temples of Apollo and of Bellona are mentioned:
Liv. xxxiv. 43; Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Plut. Sull. 30).

The senate could not be summoned to meet before sunrise or sit after
sunset (Gell. xiv. 7). But under the Republic there were no fixed
days for its meetings any more than for those of the Comitia.
Augustus first enacted that there should be two regular meetings held
in each month (Suet. Aug. 35, ne plus quam bis in mense legitimus
senatus ageretur Kal. et Idibus, Dio Cass. lv. 3). Nor is it clear
that in early times there were any days on which a senate could not
be lawfully held. But by a Lex Pupia, the date of which Mommsen fixes
at about 154 B.C., the magistrates were apparently forbidden to hold
a senate upon any day actually appointed for Comitia, or possibly
upon any of the days on which Comitia might legally be held (dies
comitiales, Cic. ad Fam. i. 4, senatus haberi ante Kal. Febr. per
legem Pupiam . . . non potest; Id. ad Q. Fr. ii. 2, consecuti sunt
dies comitiales per quos senatus haberi non potest: cf ad Fam. viii.
8; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 921-923).

The usual mode of summoning the senate (cogere senatum) was by a
proclamation issued by one or both the consuls, naming the date and
place of meeting, and occasionally stating the special business to be
considered (Liv. xxviii. 9, praemisso edicto ut triduo post senatus
ad aedem Bellonae adesset; Suet. Caes. 28, edicto praefatus se summa
de republica relaturlum; Cic. ad Fam. xi. 6, quam edixissent . . .
senatus adesset ). The procedure was the same if the magistrate
concerned was a praetor or tribune. The magistrate was empowered, if
necessary, to compel the attendance of senators by taking pledges for
their attendance, or by fining those who failed to appear (Gell. xiv,
7; Cic. de Legg. iii. 4, Phil. i. 12); but this power was, it would
seem, sparingly exercised under the later Republic, and the increased
numbers of the senate after 81 B.C., added to the fact that no quorum
was required by law, gave little occasion for its use. Under the
Empire it was otherwise. Augustus found it necessary not only to fix
a quorum (Dio Cass. lv. 3: see below), but to increase the penalties
for non-attendance (Dio Cass. liv. 18), and Claudius did the same
(Dio Cass. lx. 11: cf. Tac. Ann. xvi. 27, patres arguebat(Nero) quod
publica munia desererent ).

On the assembling of the senate, usually in the early morning, the
senators took their seats, as they chose, upon the benches
(subsellia) ranged in rows to the right and left of the curule chairs
of the presiding magistrates; the latter being so placed as to face
the door of the house. [Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 932, has shown that
under the Republic neither the ordinary senators nor, as Willems (ii.
173) maintains, the magistrates generally, had any special or fixed
seats.] Under the Empire the emperor's chair was placed between those
of the consuls (this seat was first assigned to Augustus in 19 B.C.:
Dio Cass. liv. 10); and separate seats were assigned to the
praetors., tribunes, and possibly to the other magistrates (Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 934). The proceedings opened with a sacrifice, followed
by the inspection of the victim's entrails (Gell. xiv. 7; Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 935).

The magistrate who summoned the senate also presided at its meetings,
and it is he who, subject to certain customary rules, determines what
business shall be laid before the house and in what order. It was his
duty, in the first place, to communicate to the senate any news of
importance, to read despatches received from officials abroad, and to
introduce provincial or foreign deputations (Caesar, B.C. i. 2; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 1. 2, 3; Liv. xliv. 20, 21). On his demand, or with his
permission, any individual senator might similarly read letters,
communicate information, or make a statement to the house. The same
privilege belonged to praetors and tribunes, as having the right to
consult the senate, even when not actually presiding.

The magistrate might follow up these preliminary communications by
referring one or more of the points raised to the senate for its
opinion, and the senate not unfrequently demanded by acclamation that
such a reference should be made. It rested, however, with the
magistrate to decide whether or not this further step should be taken
(Liv. xxx. 21, conclamatum ex omni parte curiae est, uti referret [p.
628] P. Aelius praetor; ib. xlii. 3, ex omnibus partibus postulabatur
ut consules earn rem ad senatum referrent; Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6;
Caes. B.C. i. 1, ut ex litteris ad senatum referretur, impetrari non
potuit ).

The formal consultation of the senate (relatio) was governed by a
variety of customary rules. After, usually, an explanation of the
business in question ( verba facere, Cic. ad Fam. viii. 8; Phil.
viii. 14, &c.), the magistrate asked the senate quid de ea re fieri
placet, without himself submitting a definite proposition (Sall. Cat.
30; Cic. Cat. i. 1. 0, iii. 13). Occasionally the magistrate
indicated his own view (Liv. xxxix. 39, sibi nisi quid aliud eis
videretur in animo esse . . . comitia habere. For instances of a
definite proposition, see Suet. Caes. 28, rettulit ad senatum ut ei
succederetur; Cic. Phil. i. 1, scriptum senatusconsultum quod fieri
vellet attulit; cf. Cic. Phil. x. 1. 7). It is significant of the
more dependent position of the senate in relation to the emperor that
the latter, when consulting the senate, usually made at the same time
a definite proposal (see below). The reference to the senate might
either be general ( infinite de republica, Gell. xiv. 7; cf. Liv.
xxvi. 10, de summa republica consultatum ) or special ( de singulis
rebus finite, Gell. xiv. 7; Cic. Phil. vii. 1, de Appia Via et de
Moneta ), and the senators might, in giving their sententiae, express
a wish for the separate reference of some particular question (Cic.
Phil. x. 2. 4, de M. Appuleio separatim censeo referendum, ad Fam.
viii. 8, ne quid conjunctim referatur ). Custom again prescribed in
general terms the order in which the business should be taken: de
rebus divinis priusquam humanis ad senatum referendum esse (Gell.
xiv. 7; cf. Liv. xxii. 9, ab diis orsus--tum de bello deque
republica ); but here again the practice at least of the later
Republic allowed a certain weight to the wishes of the senators
themselves, who might either directly demand urgency for a particular
question (Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6, flagitare senatus institit . . . ut
referret statim ), or indirectly force the magistrate's hand by
refusing to give opinions upon any matter until the desired point had
been submitted to them (Cic. ad Att. iii. 2. 4, senatum nihil
decernere, antequam de nobis actum esset; in Pison. 13, 29, quum
quacunque de re verbum facere coeperatis aut referre ad senatum,
cunctus ordo reclamabat, ostendebatque, nihil esse vos acturos, nisi
prius de me rettulissetis ). The right of reference (jus referendi,
consulendi senatum, cum patribus agendi) belonged, exclusively of
extraordinary magistrates, to consuls, tribunes of the plebs, and
praetors; the latter, however, do not appear to have exercised it
except in the absence of the consuls. As between consuls and
tribunes, the consul's business took precedence, though it would seem
from Cic. Phil. vii. 1, that if the questions were small ones, the
references of both consuls and tribunes might be put conjointly to
the house ( de Appia Via et de Moneta consul; de Lupercis tribunus
plebis refert ). To the emperors a special right of reference, as of
convening the senate, was granted by statute, in addition to that
which they possessed in virtue of the tribunicia potestas. This
right, granted to Augustus in 23 B.C. on his resignation of the
consulship (Dio Cass. liii. 32), and confirmed to his successors (Lex
Vespas. 2, Bruns, 128), invested him with the power of making the
first relatio (peri henos tinos, Dio Cass. op. cit.) at each meeting
of the senate, and was afterwards extended so as to enable him to
make four and even five relationes before the regular magistrates
took their turn ( jus quartae relationis, Vit. Pert. 5; quintae
relationis, Sev. Alex. 1; cf. Pelham, Journal of Philology, xvii. pp.
41, 42). At first at any rate the emperor, like the consul, made his
relatio in person; or, if unable to do so, communicated it in writing
through the consuls (Tiberius, Dio Cass. lviii, 11; Nero, Suet. Nero,
15). But from the close of the first century onwards the practice,
occasionally adopted by Augustus (Dio Cass. liv. 25) and by Claudius
(Id. lx. 2), of employing the quaestor principis as the emperor's
mouthpiece, became the regular one (QUAESTOR: cf. Digest 1, 13, 1,
quaestores . . . libris principalibus in senatu legendis vacant; ib.
4, quique epistulas eius in senatu legunt ). The relationes of the
emperor thus took the form of written speeches (orationes) or letters
(litterae, epistulae), and are usually referred to as such (Suet.
Tit. 6; Dig. 23, 2, 16, &c.).

The formal introduction of the business was followed, not by a
debate, in the modern sense of the word, but by the taking of the
sententiae (sententias rogare, perrogare) of the individual senators
in order. Just as the senate was in theory only a council of advice
consulted by the magistrate, so the senator's one duty was to give
his opinion (sententiam dicere), and technically in this one act both
speech and vote were included. But, as we shall see, considerations
of convenience, as well as the growing tendency to treat the senate's
expression of opinion as a positive decision, developed in practice a
process of counting votes actually, though not theoretically,
distinct from the taking of sententiae.

The magistrate, in taking the sententiae, was expected to follow a
well-established order of precedence, corresponding in the main to
that observed in the official roll (see above). Down to the time of
Sulla, the first sententia taken was that of the princeps senatus. In
the Ciceronian age the magistrate might select for this honour any
consular, subject only to two restrictions, as (1) he was expected to
adhere to the order adopted by him on his first day of office; (2)
after the consular elections, i. e. during the latter half of the
year, he was bound to give the priority to the consuls-designate. The
other consulares were taken next, usually in order of seniority;
after them the praetorii, aedilicii, &c. [It is possible that in
earlier times, before senatorial ascendancy was well established, the
magistrate's discretion in this respect was wider (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 974). The classical passage on the ordo sententiarum is Varro,
ap. Gell. xiv. 7, singulos autem debere consuli gradatim, incipique a
consulari gradu, ex quo gradu . . . antea primum rogari solitum qui
princeps in senatum lectus esset, tum autem cum haec scriberet . . .
ut is primus rogaretur, quem rogare vellet qui haberet senatum, dum
is tamen ex gradu consulari esset; cf. ib. iv. 10; Suet. Caes. 21,
post novam adfinitatem Pompeium primum rogare sententiam coepit
(Caesar). For the consules designati, comp. Sall. Cat. 50: Silanus
primus sententiam rogatus quod eo [p. 629] tempore consul designatus
erat; and Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Tac. Ann. iii. 22.] The right to give
an opinion, jus sententiam dicendae, belonged to all senators,
excepting only the magistrates of the year; the latter being in
theory the consulting and not the consulted parties (Liv. viii. 20;
Willems, ii. 189). It was only when the emperor made a relatio in
virtue of his special powers, that the sententiae of magistrates were
taken (Tac. Ann. iii. 17; Hist. iv. 41). But every magistrate could
at any moment interpose with a speech on the subject in hand.
[Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 943. The same author holds that in earlier
days plebeians directly admitted to the senate by consuls or censors,
without having held a qualifying magistracy, had no jus sententiae
dicendae (Staatsr. iii. 963), but could merely take part (pedibus
eundo) in the final discessio. Of this, however, there is no
sufficient evidence.] The question was put to each senator in turn in
the simple form die M. Tulli (quid censes) (Liv. i. 32; Cic. ad Att.
vii. 1), but the modes of reply were various. (1) The senator might
rise, discuss the question in a set speech, and close with a formal
statement of his opinion, so worded as to form the basis of a decree
( stantem sententiam dicere, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 4,
surrexit, ornatissimeque locutus est. For the form of the closing
statement of opinion, comp. Phil. xiv. 29, decerno igitur, &c.; ib.
x. 25, quod consul . . . verba fecit de litteris de ea re ita censeo;
ib. v. 46, ita censeo decernendum ). It was occasionally drafted in
writing beforehand (Phil. iii. 20). This method was that which, in
cases of any importance, consulars and other prominent senators were
expected to adopt (Liv. xxvii. 34). (2) He might, without rising,
express his agreement with some previous sententia, either verbo
(Cic. ad Att. vii. 3, dic M. Tulli: suntoma, Cn. Pompeio adsentior ),
or by a nod, or by holding up his hand ( verbo assentiebatur; Liv.
xxvii. 34; cf. Sall. Cat. 52, sedens assensi; Cic. ad Fam. v. 2). (3)
He might cross over to the side of a senator with whose opinion he
agreed ( pedibus ire in sententiam, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Q. Fr.
ii. 1, 3; Vit. Aureliani, 20, interrogati plerique senatores
sententias dixerunt . . . deinde aliis manus porrigentibus, aliis
pedibus in sententias euntibus, plerisque verbo consentientibus ). By
this method, a senator who had already given his sententia at length,
might indicate that he had changed his mind (Sall. Cat. 50,
Silanus . . . primus sententiam rogatus . . . decreverat: isque
postea permotus oratione G. Caesaris pedibus in sententiam Tiberi
Neronis iturum se dixerat ).

In strictness this orderly taking of opinions on business introduced
by a magistrate precluded both the introduction of fresh matter by
those consulted, and also any debate in the modern sense of the word.
But, in the Ciceronian age, custom sanctioned a freedom of speech
really inconsistent with the theory of the procedure. For a senator,
when asked for his opinion on a particular point, to seize the
opportunity to deliver a lengthy oration on some wholly irrelevant
matter, was a privilege thoroughly well recognised and frequently
exercised ( egredi relationem, Gell. iv. 10; Tac. Ann. ii. 38,; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 2. 8, quum tribuni plebis. . .de alia re referrent, totam
rempublicam sum complexus ). It was indeed the only means open to the
senator of forcing upon the attention of the senate subjects which
the magistrates were unwilling formally to bring before it (Cic.
Phil. vii. 1, parvis de rebus consulimur . . . tamen animus aberrat a
sententia, suspensus curis majoribus ). That the presiding magistrate
could not compel a senator to speak to the question is clear, and it
is doubtful how far he was able to limit the duration of his speech.
According to Ateius Capito (Gell. iv. 10), a senator could say,
quicquid vellet . . . et quoad vellet; and several instances are
recorded in which a measure was, as we should say, talked out (Cic.
ad Att. iv. 3, calumnia dicendi tempus exemit; Gell. iv. 10, eximebat
dicendo diem; cf. Cic. ad Att. iv. 2, ad Q. Fr. ii. 1, 3). One
instance only is recorded in which the presiding magistrate exercised
his authority to check this abuse, and then the feeling of the house
was decidedly against him (Caesar's arrest of Cato, Gell. iv. 10). On
another occasion the senate by resolution decided that the speeches
should be brief (Cic. ad Fam. i. 2). The altercationes, which were
not infrequent in the Ciceronian age, were certainly out of order,
but were as certainly tolerated (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 947; Willems,
ii. 191).

The theory of the procedure unquestionably implied that the
magistrate took the sense of the house on the matter which he had
laid before them, by asking each senator in turn to give his opinion
(perrogare sententias); and there is no evidence that he could, by
any form of closure, abridge the process (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 983,
as against Willems, i. 194). It is also possible that in the early
days, when the senate was still a subordinate and purely consultative
body, the sense of the house as expressed in the course of this
process was taken as sufficient, and that no formal division
(discessio) followed. But when the senate became in fact the
governing council, the business before it increased in amount and
complexity, and the importance of its decisions increased also. These
changes, coupled with the rise in its numbers from 300 to 600,
modified the character of the perrogatio sententiarum, and
necessitated a more exact method of taking a vote, i. e. of
determining where the majority of sententiae lay. (But the voting was
not technically distinct from the giving an opinion; nor is it
conceivable that, as Mommsen holds, there were senators who could
vote but who were legally unable sententiam dicere.) The accounts we
have of the procedure in the senate during the Ciceronian age, make
it clear that sententiae, in the shape of formal proposals explained
and advocated in speeches, were as a rule only given by the highest
category of senators, the consulares and praetorii, and that the rest
contented themselves with a brief assent (verbo), or ranged
themselves behind the speaker they agreed with (pedarii. The cases of
Cato in 63 B.C., who, though only tribunus designatus, gave the
sententia which was ultimately adopted, and of P. Servilius
Isauricus, Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 9, were no doubt exceptional). On the
perrogatio followed, at least in Cicero's time, the pronuntiatio
sententiarum: where only one definite [p. 630] proposal had been
made; or when the sense of the house was clearly in favour of a
particular sententia, the case was simple. But where, as in the
debate on the restoration of Ptolemy Auletes (Cic. ad Fam. i. 1 and
2), several conflicting sententiae had been given, and there was a
real division of opinion, the difficulty was considerable. It rested
with the magistrate who had made the relatio to take the division on
such sententiae, and in such order as he thought best; and he might
decline to put such as seemed to him inexpedient (Willems, ii. 194;
Cic. Phil. xiv. 2. 2), or to be covered, or better expressed by
others (Cic. ad Att. xii. 2. 1, cur ergo in sententiam Catonis, quia
verbis luculentioribus et pluribus rem eandem comprehenderat ). As a
rule, however, the sententiae were put to the vote in the order in
which they had been given. If the first was carried, the rest, if
inconsistent with it, naturally fell to the ground. A single
seenentia might lastly be divided and put as two (Cic. pro Mil. 14,
divisa est sententia; cf. ad Fam. i. 2). The difficulties involved in
the putting a variety of sententiae to the house so as to get a clear
decision are well described by Pliny (Epp. viii. 14, quae distinctio
pugnantium sententiarum quae exsecutio prioribus addentium, &c.). The
sententia once put (pronuntiata), the magistrate took the division by
bidding the ayes cross to the side of the senate-house on which its
author sat, the noes to the other (Plin. l. c., qui haec sentitis in
hanc partem, qui alia omnia in illam partem ite . . . in hanc partem,
id est in earn in qua sedet qui censuit; cf. Cic. ad Fam. i. 2,
frequentes ierunt in alia omnia; Festus, p. 261). He then declared on
which side the majority was ( haec pars major videtur, Senec. de Vit.
beat. 2. There is no evidence of any actual counting of heads, any
more than when the Speaker in the English House of Commons declares
that the ayes have it: Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 993).

Such was the regular order of procedure. But in certain cases the
perrogatio sententiarum might be dispensed with, and a division taken
at once (senatusconsultum per discessionem facere). This, however,
was only allowable where the business was formal, or where no
difference of opinion existed (Varro, ap. Gell. xiv. 7,
senatusconsultum fieri duobus modis aut per discessionem si
consentiretur, aut si res dubia esset, per singulorum sententias
exquisitas; cf. Cic. Phil. iii. 2. 4).

The republican order of procedure was maintained with comparatively
little change throughout the first three centuries of the Empire (cf.
Plin. Epp. viii. 14; Vit. Aurel. 20); nor can the lex, quae nunc de
senatu habendo observatur (Gell. iv. 10), possibly the work of
Augustus, have effected many alterations of importance. The special
jus referendi granted to the emperor has been mentioned above. He had
also the right as a senator to give his sententia, and to give it
when he would, usually either first or last (Dio Cass. lvii. 7; Tac.
Ann. i. 74. The emperors after Tiberius seem never to have exercised
this right: Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 977). The claim of the consuls
designate to be asked first disappears early in the second century
A.D. (ib. iii. 976); and lastly, by Augustus, a certain quorum was
fixed as necessary for a valid discessio. (The exact number required
is unknown: ib. iii. 990; Dio Cass. lv. 3; Suet. Aug. 35). In
practice, however, the declining independence of the senate led to a
frequent disregard of the elaborate routine of earlier days. A body
which met to accept submissively an imperial proposal, to pass a
complimentary vote, or decide some trivial point, willingly dispensed
with the routine of the perrogatio, and its place was taken by the
undignified adclamationes [Plin. Epp. <br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24852 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Ave Cato

It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess. Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is where our initial purchases's were made.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Salve, Cornelius Sulla.

"Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign
state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world
capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the
form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."

Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that, sometime in
the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of Vatican
City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of
Nova Roma, located here:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
>
> Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
>
> We recognize the modern political realities which make the
restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the admistration
of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The
exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital is
to be determined.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24853 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Ave Lucius Arminius,

I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's consent to post this information here? Because I got TONS of dissertations that I would LOVE to post on the ML but have been told by college professors that I must get the express consent of the author or publisher's before I could post their work.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

SENATUS

SENATUS The senate or council of elders (seniores: comp. the Greek
gerousia) ranked with the kingship, and the assembly of burgesses
among the oldest of Roman institutions, and, like the two latter,
existed also among the kindred communities of Latium (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 836, note 2). Its creation is ascribed by tradition to
Romulus (Liv. i. 8). The members of the senate were senatores. The
collective appellation patres (= chiefs rather than fathers )
belonged of right to the purely patrician senate of the earliest
days, but was transferred to the mixed patricio-plebeian body of
later times (Cicero, Sallust, and Livy, passim), and used as
equivalent to senatus. Similarly the two functions inherited by the
mixed senate from its patrician predecessor, the appointment [p. 621]
of the interrex, and the ratification of votes given by the assembly,
are always spoken of as acts of the patres, though in fact performed
by the senate as a whole. [For this and for Mommsen's rival theory,
that patres in these cases always meant only the patrician members of
the senate, see below.] The fact that the patrician patres had once
formed the whole senate, and that plebeians were not admitted until a
later time, was possibly commemorated by the official term patres
conscripti; the conscripti denoting originally the plebeian members
called up by the magistrate (Festus, p. 254; Liv. ii. 1; Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 839; Madvig, Verfass. i. 125. Willems, Le Sénat, i. 37
sqq., maintains on the contrary that the term means simply assembled
fathers. For Mommsen's view of the inferior position of the plebeian
conscripti, see below).

I. Number of the Senate. Roman tradition represents the senate as
consisting originally of 100 members (Liv. i. 8), and as having been
gradually enlarged to 300, though of the steps by which this increase
was effected it gives no consistent account. That 300 remained the
normal number down to the time of Sulla is generally agreed. From 81
B.C. to the dictatorship of Caesar, the nominal maximum was 600.
Under Caesar the numbers rose to 900 (Dio Cass. xliii. 47); under the
triumvirs to over 1000 (Suet. Aug. 35, erant enim super mille: cf.
Mon. Ancyr. 5, 6). Augustus reduced them once more to 600 (Suet. l.
c.; Dio Cass. liv. 13); but there is no proof that either by himself
or his successors was this limit strictly observed. [The advice given
by Maecenas to Augustus not to be particular as to the number of
senators (mêden peri tou plêthous autôn akribologoumenos, Dio Cass.
lii. 19) may be taken, with Mommsen, to represent the practice of
Dio's own time. See Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 850, note 3.]

II. Admission and expulsion of Senators.--It was a distinctive
peculiarity of the Roman senate, that admission to its ranks was
always given, not by popular election or by cooptation, but by the
act of the magistrate, who has for the time being the authority
legere in senatuzm; and though, as will be shown, his freedom of
choice was under the later Republic so restricted by law as to reduce
the lectio senatus to little more than the formal enrolment of
persons with a legal claim to be enrolled, yet his action continued
to be indispensable (Val. Max. ii. 3, 1), and under the Empire
regained much of its original liberty. The two principles that the
senate was only a council of advice for the magistrate, and that the
magistrate selected his councillors, though modified in practice by
the anxiety of the senate to assert its independence, were never
formally abandoned, and were successfully re-asserted by the Caesars.
Prof. Mommsen indeed has a theory that in pre-historic times the case
was otherwise, and that the original senate, as consisting of the
assembled heads (patres) of the patrician gentes, was independent as
to its composition of the authority of the magistrate (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 844, 854). That the early senate was composed
exclusively of patricians may be safely assumed. It is, moreover,
probable that from this original and close connexion with the gentes
were derived the claims which the patrician senate bequeathed to its
patricio-plebeian successor to be the special guardians of the
auspicia, and of the ancient order of things bound up with them. But
of a strictly representative gentile council there is, as Mommsen
himself confesses, no evidence. The senate as first known to us
appears as a council composed of patricians, but of patricians
selected by the chief magistrate [Liv. i. 8, Romulus centum creat
senatores. Willems' theory (Le Sénat, i. 26) that the senate was
originally a réunion de tous les patres familiarum seniores des
familles patriciennes, and that subsequently le choix royal succéda
au droit d'hérédité, is an equally unfounded and a less plausible
conjecture].

Starting from the earliest system known to us, that under which the
senators were chosen by the magistrate, we have to consider, (1) to
what magistrates this right of choice was successively granted; (2)
by what conditions, legal or customary, the choice was limited; and
(3) the mode in which the lectio senatus was carried out.

(1.) The prerogative of choosing senators belonged at first to the
king. From the king it passed to the consuls, and was during a brief
period granted to their temporary substitutes, the tribuni militum
consulari potestate (Festus, p. 246, ut reges sibi legebant,
sublegebantque quos in consilio publico haberent, ita post exactos
eos consules quoque et tribuni militum consulari potestate
conjunctissimos sibi quosque patriciorum et deinde plebeiorum
legebant ). The date at which it was transferred to the censors is
uncertain. That the change was not made before 387 A.U.C. = 367 B.C.,
the last year in which consular tribunes were appointed, is implied
in the passage quoted above from Festus; and it was not therefore
coeval with the institution of the censorship itself (443 B.C.).
According to the same passage, it was effected by a Lex Ovinia
tribunicia: donec Ovinia tribunicia intercessit qua sanctum est ut
censores ex omni ordine optimum quemque curiatim (sic) in senatum
legerent; and may be assumed to have been, as such, made in the
interest of the plebs. We may consequently place it after the passing
of the Lex Publilia (339 B.C.), which enacted that one censor must be
a plebeian (Liv. viii. 12), since a tribune of the plebs at that
period would not have been likely to entrust the choice of senators
to patrician magistrates. The first recorded lectio senatus by
censors is the famous one in the censorship of Appius Claudius Caecus
(312 B.C.; Liv. ix. 29), so that the Lex Ovinia and the transference
of the lectio senatus to the censors may be assigned to some date
between 339 B.C. and 312 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 395; Willems, i.
155). With the censors the duty remained down to the close of the
Republic, though on two occasions it was entrusted, as an exceptional
measure, to a dictator. In 216 B.C., after the battle of Cannae, M.
Fabius Buteo was created dictator for this purpose (Liv. xxiii. 22,
qui senatum legeret ); and Sulla exercised the prerogative as
dictator in 81 B.C. (Appian, B.C. i. 100). Both Julius Caesar and the
triumvirs selected senators in virtue of the extraordinary powers
vested in them. Augustus, true to his general policy, made a partial
return to the old practice. Although the censorship proper ceased to
exist, and the creation of senators devolved upon the princeps, the
old [p. 622] connexion between this act and the censorial authority
was not entirely lost sight of. Of the three regular lectiones
senatus held by Augustus (Mon. Ancyr. ii. 1, senatum ter legi ), the
first certainly and the two others probably coincided with the three
census of Roman citizens taken by him in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and 14 A.D.
Moreover, though under Augustus and his successors both the calling
up into the senate of persons legally qualified by the tenure of the
quaestorship, and the removal from the list of the names of such
senators as had died or proved themselves unworthy, took place
annually and quite independently of any censorial authority, the
direct admission (adlectio) of men freely selected by Caesar was a
power only occasionally exercised in the first century and always in
virtue of the censorial authority, e. g. by Claudius, Vespasian, and
Titus (C. I. L. v. 3117; Orelli, 3659; Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 877,
iii. 857). Domitian, as censor for life, first exercised it
continuously. From his time onwards the right was possessed and used
by all emperors at their discretion, and without any reference to
censorial authority as a power inherent in the imperial prerogative
(Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 857).

(2.) The old constitution left the king or consul free to choose as
senators the men he thought best fitted for the post. Full
citizenship, free birth (ingenuitas), and good character were no
doubt always indispensable for a seat in the senate as for a
magistracy; but although custom may have limited the choice of the
king to patricians, there is no proof that he was prohibited by law
from admitting plebeians; and the admission of the latter is
represented in tradition as the free act of the king or consul, not
as the consequence of special legislation. [Liv. ii. 1. Mommsen's
theory, that originally a seat in the senate was an exclusively
patrician privilege (Staatsr. iii. 870), must stand or fall with his
hypothesis mentioned above, of a time when the senate was a
representative council of the gentes. As he confesses himself, no
traces are discoverable of any formal representation in the senate of
the gentes or curiae.] The classical passage in Festus describes the
kings and consuls as choosing freely: conjunctissimos sibi
quosque . . . legebant; so that to be passed over inflicted no
disgrace, praeteriti senatores in opprobrio non erant (Id. ib.). Even
by the Lex Ovinia the censors were directed to choose ex omni ordine
optimum quemque; and Cicero declares (pro Sest. 65, 137) that the
original intention of the constitution was, that the senate should be
open omnium civium industriae ac virtuti. But this early freedom of
choice was gradually restricted. It is probable that the consuls at
the end of their year of office had always a claim to be enrolled as
senators, and we may assume that this privilege was conceded from the
first to praetores. When, owing to the transference of the lectio
senatus to the censors, the revision of the senatorial list took
place not annually but quinquennially, the ex-magistrates who had a
claim to be enrolled were permitted, after the end of their year of
office and while waiting for the next quinquennial lectio, to enter
the senate-house, and though not yet senators to give their
sententiae with the rest. Hence the distinction drawn between
senatores and those quibus in senatu sententiam dicere licet. (Liv.
xxiii. 32; Fest. p. 339; Varro, ap. Gell. iii. 18, qui nondum a
censoribus in senatum lecti, senatores non erant, sed quia honoribus
populi usi erant, in senatum veniebant, et sententiae jus habebant. )
The number of magistracies carrying this privilege increased as time
went on. By 216 B.C. it had evidently been extended to the curule
aedileship, since Livy, in describing the lectio of that exceptional
year, plainly includes the curule aedileship among the offices which
entitled their holders to a seat in the senate (Liv. xxii. 49, unde
in senatum legi deberent, xxiii. 23; and Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 860,
note 3). On the other hand, the minor magistracies, the plebeian
aedileship, tribunate, and quaestorship gave no such right as yet;
although, as we might expect, former holders of these offices were
selected next to ex-curule magistrates, and before such private
citizens as had distinguished themselves in war: primum in
demortuorum locum legit, qui post L. Aemilium, C. Flaminium censores
curulem magistratum cepissent, necdum in senatum lecti essent . . .
tum legit qui aediles, tribuni plebis, quaestoresve fuerant; tum ex
iis qui magistratus non cepissent, qui spolia ex hoste fixa domi
haberent aut civicam coronam accepissent (Liv. xxiii. 23). By Sulla's
time, if not before, the customary preference hitherto given to ex-
holders of the plebeian aedileship and tribuneship had been exchanged
for a legal claim both to the provisional seat and jus sententiae in
the senate, pending the next censorial lectio, and to formal
enrolment as senators when the time for the lectio arrived. [These
privileges were apparently given to the tribunes by the plebiscitum
Atinium (Gell. xiv. 8, 2, senatores non essent ante Atinium
plebiscitum ), the date of which must fall, according to Mommsen,
between 123 B.C. and 102 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 862, note 2).
When the plebeian aediles obtained them is uncertain. Mommsen infers,
from their inclusion in the Lex Acilia among those quei in senatu
sient, that they had done so before 122 B.C. (ib. 861, note 2).]
Finally, the same rights were attached to the quaestorship by Sulla
(Tac. Ann. xi. 22, viginti quaestores creati supplendo senatui ). But
these rights had long lost all value for the holders of the higher
offices; since, owing to the gradual establishment of a fixed order
of succession to these posts, a man was presumably already a senator
by the time that he reached even the lowest curule magistracy. After
Sulla, they were of importance only for the quaestorship, which was
then legally established as the first step in the ladder of
promotion. As a rule even the tribunate was taken after the
quaestorship, and its holders were consequently already senators. The
effect of these changes was practically to destroy the magistrate's
freedom of choice. He still created senators, but as a rule the
number of ex-quaestors awaiting his call, and with a legal claim to
be called, must have been sufficient to fill the vacancies, and have
left no room for others. Of senators admitted by free selection of
the magistrate, there is no trace after 70 B.C., until we reach the
dictatorship of Caesar. The votes of the people in Comitia in fact
gave admission to the senate. (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153, [p. 623]
judicio populi Romani in amplissimum locum pervenire. ) But the call
of the magistrate was still indispensable; and with the Empire it
became once more a reality. The quaestorship still retained its right
to give a seat; and it is true that the transference of the elections
for the quaestorship to the senate by Tiberius gave that body in
appearance a complete control over its own composition, and
substituted cooptation both for the free choice of the magistrate and
for the votes of the people. But it was only in appearance; for,
apart from the influence which his control of the quaestorian
elections gave him, the emperor possessed and exercised the old right
of direct admission, now known as adlectio, possibly to distinguish
it from the old periodic lectiones of republican times (Mommsen,
Staatsr. ii. 877, note). This right, used occasionally (see above) by
the earlier emperors, was from the reign of Nerva onwards constantly
exercised. The person so admitted was assigned a definite place on
the roll, usually inter tribunicios, occasionally inter praetorios,
and in the 3rd century even inter consulares; this titular rank
counting as equivalent to the actual tenure of the office itself. The
increasing frequency of these adlectiones indicates the use of the
method as a means of strengthening the emperor's hold over the
senate, and of promoting his friends and protégés (Mommsen, Staatsr.
ii. 877 sqq.; Vita Pert. 6, cum Commodus adlectionibus innumeris
praetorios miscuisset; Vita Marci, 10, multos ex amicis adlegit ).

No qualification of age or property was originally fixed by law for a
seat in the senate; but from the time when election to the
quaestorship became the normal mode of entry into the senate, the
legal age for this office became practically that for the senate
also. Under the later Republic it was consequently thirty; from the
time of Augustus onwards, twenty-five (Dio Cass. lii. 20; QUAESTOR).
A property qualification was first introduced by Augustus, who fixed
it at one million sesterces (Dio Cass. liv. 17; Suet. Aug. 41; Tac.
Ann. i. 75, ii. 37). Under Trajan, all candidates for office, and
therefore for a seat in the senate, were compelled to invest a third
of their property in Italian land (Plin. Epp. vi. 19). This
proportion was reduced to a fourth by M. Aurelius (Vit. 11).

It should lastly be mentioned that in the early days of the Empire
the Roman franchise was given to Gauls (Tac. Ann. xi. 23), and
possibly to other provincials, without the right of standing for
office in Rome (jus honorum; and to such men, therefore, unless
directly admitted by the emperor, the senate-house was closed. But of
this special disability no trace is found after the reign of Claudius.

With the right of creating senators was closely connected that of
removing them (loco movere), or omitting them from the revised list
(praeterire). Of the mode in which it was exercised by the kings and
consuls we know nothing beyond the statement in Festus, that,
inasmuch as the magistrate then drew up the list as he chose, no
stigma attached to those whose names were left out (Festus, p. 246:
see above). It is easy to understand that the senate would resent
being so completely at the magistrate's mercy; and the Lex Ovinia,
carried as it was when the senate was slowly establishing its
ascendancy (339-312 B.C.), seems to have given greater security to
the senator's tenure of his seat. By transferring the revision of the
list to the censors, it substituted a quinquennial for an annual
revision; and though the removal or omission of a name henceforward
inflicted disgrace, this was probably due in part to the fact that
the censors, possibly under a clause of the law, were obliged not
only to be agreed in doing so (App. i. 28; Liv. xl. 51; Cic. pro
Cluent. 43, 122), but to state in writing their reasons for
inflicting the penalty (Ascon. in tog. Cand. p. 84; Liv. xxxix. 42,
adscriberent notas ). The power was no doubt abused more than once
for party or personal purposes, but in the main the evidence points
to the conclusion that the arrangement gave a senator fixity of
tenure, unless he were guilty of some act, or had incurred some
public disgrace, which by law or custom disqualified him for sitting
in the senate (e. g. deprivation of his office for misconduct, loss
of civic rights, conviction in certain cases in a court of justice,
gross immorality, extravagance, &c.). After 70 B.C., when the censors
expelled a number of the unworthy members placed on the list possibly
by Sulla, the power of expulsion or omission remained in abeyance
(Sull., Cat. 23, gives an instance, belonging to 70 B.C.), though
Cicero in the Laws advocates its revival ( probrum in senatu ne
relinquunto, de Legg. iii. 3, 7). Under the Empire it came again into
exercise. The thorough purgings of the overgrown senate by Augustus
in 29-28 B.C., and again in 18 B.C., were no doubt exceptional (Suet.
Aug. 35; Dio Cass. lii. 42, liv. 12), as was that carried out by
Vespasian after the civil wars of 69 A.D. (Suet. Vesp. 9, summotis
indignissimis ). But alike at the periodic lectiones held by
Claudius, Vespasian, and Titus as censors, and at the yearly revision
of the senatorial list, not only were the names removed of those who
had vacated their seats by death, by loss of the necessary property
qualification (unless the loss, as frequently happened, was made good
by the emperor: Tac. Ann. i. 75, ii. 37, xiii. 34; Suet. Nero, 10),
or by condemnation in a court of law; but those were also expelled
who for one. reason or another were held by the emperor to be
unworthy (Ann. ii. 48, prodigos et ob flagitia egentes; iv. 42, quod
in acta d. Augusti non juraverat; xi. 25, famosos; Suet. Domit. 8,
quod gesticulandi saltandique studio tenleretur: the alternative of
voluntary, withdrawal was sometimes given, Ann. ii. 48). This power
of removal, exercised as it was with increasing freedom and even
arbitrariness as time went on, combined with the more frequent use of
the right of adlectio completely to destroy that practical
independence of magisterial control which the republican senate had
gradually won for itself. The senate under the Principate became
again what it must have been in early days--a body of councillors,
largely selected by the chief magistrate at his discretion, and
retaining their seats at his good pleasure.

(3.) The mode in which the lectio or revision of the list was carried
out has next to be described. Our knowledge of this commences with
the period when the revision of the senate was in the hands of the
censors, i. e. at the earliest after 339 B.C. Although the lectio
senatus was not apparently an integral part of the census, like [p.
624] the recognitio equitnm (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 396, and so
Willems), it seems to have immediately preceded it (Liv. xxiv. 18;
xxvii. 11, &c.). It was conducted usually by both censors jointly
(Liv. xxxii. 7, xl. 50; Willems, i. 241), though on one occasion at
least it was decided by lot which of the two should undertake the
work (Liv. xxvii. 11, sors legendi ). The first point, down to 81
B.C., was to select the senator whose name should stand at the head
of the list as princeps senatus and enjoy the privilege of giving his
sententia first. This honour belonged by ancient custom to the oldest
patrician censorius (Liv. l. c.; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 970). After
209 B.C. any patrician censorius might be chosen irrespective of
seniority. From the time of Sulla onwards, it is not clear that any
princeps senatus in the old sense was appointed: the list in the
Ciceronian age was possibly headed by the senior consular, and at any
rate the post, if it survived at all, must have been deprived of most
of its importance by the change made in the order of taking the
sententiae, which took away from the princeps the privilege of being
asked first (Varro, ap. Gell. xiv. 7; Willems, i. 114, maintains not
only that principes senatus existed after Sulla, but that they were
no longer necessarily patricians. Indeed, the three whose names he
gives--Q. Lutatius Catulus, P. Servilius Vatia, and Cicero--were all
plebeians. But his arguments are not conclusive). Under the Empire,
the emperors, following the example of Augustus (Mon. Anc. Gk. 4, 2,
prôton axiômatos topon tês sunklêtou), placed their own names at the
head of the list, though only in the case of Pertinax (Dio Cass.
lxxiii. 4) was the old title princeps senatus revived. The princeps
senatus chosen, the old list of the senate was gone through, the
names of deceased members or of those legally disqualified struck
out, those who had risen to higher office in the interval placed in
their proper position; and finally, any whom the censors judged
unfit, struck off the roll. the lectio of 216 B.C. there were no such
erasions, but this was exceptional (Liv. xxiii. 23).] The vacancies
were then filled up according to the order described above, though
here again the censors might pass over one or more of the legally
qualified claimants. In the completed list the senators were arranged
according to their official rank, from the dictatorii and censorii
down to the quaestorii; those, if there were any, who had held no
office, being no doubt placed last. Down to the time of Sulla, the
patricians in each magisterial category took precedence of the
plebeians; in the post-Sullan period, the members of each category
were arranged simply by official seniority (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii.
968; Willems, i. 259). Under the Empire a senator might obtain
precedence by the grant of the jus trium liberorum, and earlier still
by the successful prosecution in a public court of a senator higher
in rank than himself, whose place he took (Mommsen, l. c. 971; Dio
Cass. xxxvi. 40). Those persons directly admitted (adlecti) by the
emperor, among the praetorii or tribunicii, were properly placed
below the genuine ex-praetors or ex-tribunes (Vit. Pertin. 6). The
list when made up was in Republican times read aloud from the rostra
(Liv. xxiii. 23); under the Empire it was regularly published (Dio
Cass. lv. 3). It held good until the next revision, i. e. under the
Republic, until the next censors came into office. Under the Empire
the revision was annual (Dio Cass. l. c.). The official name for the
list, album senatorium, first occurs in Tacitus (Ann. iv. 42).

III. Composition and Character of the Senate.--The first important
change in the composition of the senate must have been effected by
the admission of plebeians--a measure ascribed by tradition to
Brutus, and certainly anterior to their admission to the consulship.
With the opening of the magistracies to plebeians, and the additions
made to the list of magistracies giving a legal claim to a seat, the
plebeian element in the senate grew in strength; and at the close of
the Punic wars largely outnumbered the patrician. (See the
calculations made by Willems, i. pp. 285 sqq.) The question then
arises, how far any distinction was maintained as regards rights and
privileges between these two elements? That the interrex was
necessarily, and the princeps senatus customarily, a patrician, is
certain (see above and art. INTERREX), as also that on the roll
patrician senators took precedence of plebeian senators of equal
official rank. But on two points there is a division of opinion: (1)
Were the functions of appointing the interrex (prodere interregem)
and of ratifying votes of the assembly (patrum auctoritas) reserved
exclusively for patrician senators? (2) Were plebeian senators at any
time without the right sententiam dicere? The first question is
answered in the affirmative by Mommsen (Röm. Forschungen, i. 218;
Staatsr. iii. 871) and Madvig (Verfass. i. 233, 496); in the negative
by Willems (ii. 1 and 33. See also INTERREX). The difficulty. in the
way of a decision is increased by the ambiguous sense in which the
term patres is used by ancient writers, and by the fact that while
the appointment of interreges had become extremely rare during the
period to which our best authorities (Cicero, Livy) belong, the
patrum auctoritas had long before that time been reduced to a
meaningless form (by the Lex Publilia, 339 B.C.). The most probable
view on the whole seems to be that, while both acts belonged
originally to the senate as a purely patrician body, they were in
later times performed by the patricio-plebeian senate as a whole.
[Cf. the extension of the term patres to cover the whole senate, and
the retention of the phrase patricii magistratus for the curule
offices long after these had been opened to plebeians (Cic. ad Brut.
i. 5). It is only in connexion with the three earliest interregna
under the Republic that Livy speaks of patricii (iii. 40, iv. 7, iv.
43: 421 B.C.). On later occasions he speaks always of patres, as does
Cicero throughout The patrum auctoritas is never expressly connected
with the patricii. For a full discussion, see Willems, l. c., and
INTERREX] The second question admits of a more confident answer. It
is agreed on all hands that in post-Sullan times no distinction is
traceable between patricians and plebeians as regards the right
sententiam dicere, and that the term pedarii had no legal value, but
merely denoted the lower ranks of senators (i. e. in fact the non-
curules), whose names, from want of time, were rarely reached in
taking the sententiae, and who were therefore, as a rule, obliged
pedibus ire in sententiam, [p. 625] i.e. to cross to one side or the
other of the senate-house. [Gell. iii. 18, qui in alienam sententiam
pedibus irent. The explanation of the term quoted in the same passage
from Gavius Bassus (1st century A.D.), Senatores qui magistratum
curulem nondum cepissent pedibus itavisse in curiam, though in fact
non-curules and pedarii coincide, is a bad guess, which, strangely
enough, Willems accepts (op. cit. i. 137). The confusion which
follows between the pedarii and the ex-curule magistrates nondum a
censoribus lecti is probably due to Gellius himself. The latter class
were not senators, but had the jus sententiae dicendae; the pedarii
were senators, but in practice were unable sententiam dicere. The
confusion is repeated in Lewis and Shortt's Latin Dict. The sense of
inferiority associated with the pedarii in the senate sufficiently
explains the equites pedarii of Varro (=common or inferior equites).]

But Mommsen, while agreeing that in the Ciceronian age pedarius was
merely a conventional epithet describing the actual but not the legal
position of the lower senators, holds that in earlier times the term
had a statutable meaning, and denoted plebeian senators directly
admitted by consuls or censors, as distinct from those qualified by
office --a class which ceased to exist after 81 B.C. These plebeian
senators were, he thinks, legally incapable of delivering sententiae,
and only allowed to vote (pedibus ire). The objections to this theory
are: (1) That no such distinction can be drawn between the right
sententiam dicere and the right to vote. For the Roman senator, the
sententia and the vote were the same thing, though the sententia
might be given in different ways, of which the pedibus ire was one
[see below under Procedure]. (2) That though there were certainly at
one time men in the senate with the jus sententiae who were not
senators, there is no evidence of the existence at any time of
senators without this right. (3) There is no proof that there was
ever a legally distinct class of pedarii, or that the term had ever
any other meaning than that which it bore in the Ciceronian age.

The admission of plebeians has been assigned to the early days of the
Republic; the period from the Lex Ovinia to the dictatorship of Sulla
witnessed another change which stood in close connexion with the
growing ascendancy of the senate in the political system. The class
of senators freely chosen by the magistrate as distinct from those
whom election to office had given a legal claim on his call,
gradually disappeared (Cic. de Legg. iii. 1. 2, neminem in summum
locum nisi per populum venire ), and the senate came to be composed
entirely of actual and ex-officials, to the exclusion of lay
interests and opinions--an exclusiveness intensified by the extent to
which from 200 B.C. onwards the official class was recruited from a
single section of Roman society, that of the nobiles. In Cicero's day
the only working classification of senators was classification by
official rank.

Further changes followed under the Empire. The class of those who,
while awaiting the next lectio, were permitted to sit in the senate
and give sententiae (see above), must have ceased to exist, when the
yearly revision enabled the emperor to call them up immediately on
the expiry of their year of office. On the other hand, though the
official classification continued, and even those directly adlecti by
Caesar were placed in one official category or another, and though
the majority of senators as a rule entered by the old official door,
the quaestorship, the increasing number of the adlecti unquestionably
served not only to strengthen the emperor's control over the senate,
but to widen the area from which its members were drawn. The effect
of Vespasian's admission of numerous Italians and provincials is
specially noticed by Tacitus (Ann. iii. 55, novi homines e municipiis
et coloniis atque etiam provinciis--domesticam parsimoniam
intulerunt. Senators from the eastern provinces are very rare before
the 2nd century). But while in this way the senate became in its
composition more representative of the whole Empire, a narrowing
effect was exercised by the tendency to confine the senatorial
dignity to a particular class, by making it hereditary. The way for
this latter change was prepared in the last century of the Republic.
In the time of Cicero, the male members of the great families passed
into the senate through the quaestorship, almost as a matter of
course. The son of a senator was expected and as a rule did thus
qualify himself for senatorial rank; and Cicero contrasts the
senatorial and official career proper to young nobles, with the
quieter and less ambitious course marked out by custom for members of
the equestrian order (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153). But as yet the son
of a senator had no legal claim to be himself a senator, nor did he
as such enjoy any legal distinctions or privileges. Even the phrase
ordo senatorius is usually limited in meaning to the actual senate
(Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 459). Julius, it is true, extended the
restriction on foreign travel from senators to their sons (Suet. Jul.
42); but from Augustus dates the first attempt to make the senatorial
dignity formally hereditary, and to give the ordo senatorius, as
distinct from the senate, a legal existence. According to his
regulations, the sons of senators were authorised to assume the broad
stripe (latus clavus) on the assumption of the toga virilis, and to
attend meetings of the senate (a revival of an ancient custom, Gell.
i. 23). They entered the army as tribuni militum or praefecti alarum,
and were distinguished from other young officers as laticlavii (Suet.
Aug. 38, liberis senatorum, quo celerius reipublicae assuescerent,
protinus a virili toga, latum clavum induere et curiae interesse
permisit, militiamque auspicantibus non tribunatum modo legionum, sed
et praefecturas alarum dedit . . . binos plerumque laticlavios
praeposuit singulis alis. The ordinary trib. mil. were angusticlavii,
Suet. Otho, 10). From military service they passed on to the
quaestorship and a seat in the senate. That under the earlier
emperors this career was morally incumbent both on senators' sons and
on other young men, to whom the emperor had granted the latus clavus,
seems certain (they are described as honores petituri: Plin. Ep.
viii. 14; Dio Cass. lix. 10, epi têi tês boulês elpidi), but there is
no proof that in the 1st century A.D. it was legally necessary. [We
hear of several cases in which a man either declines to assume the
latus clavus, or discards [p. 626] it after a time. Suet. Vesp. 2,
latum clavum din aversatus (Vespasian); Tac. Ann. xvi. 17, Mela
petitione honorum abstinuerat; Hist. ii. 86, prima juventa senatorium
ordinem exuerat; Ovid, Trist. iv. 10, 35. Claudius, however, as
censor took a strict view of the obligation (Suet. Claud. 24,
senatoriam dignitatem recusantibus equestrem quoque ademit. Augustus,
at the lectio, in B.C. 13, compelled qualified persons under 35
bouleusai (Dio Cass. liv. 26).] A further illustration of the same
policy is the enactment due to Augustus prohibiting both senators and
their sons from marriage with libertinae (Lex Papia Poppaea, Dig. 23,
2, 23). The development of the policy by the emperors of the 2nd
century cannot be traced in detail. At the close of that century,
however, we find the two orders, senatorial and equestrian, clearly
and sharply distinguished. Each has its own privileges. The careers
appropriate to the members of each order are different, and the
passage from one to the other difficult and rarely made. [EQUITES;
PRINCIPATUS; PROCURATOR.] Suetonius already contrasts senatoria et
equestria officia, Galb. 15; cf. Vita Commodi, 4, per laticlavi
honorem a praefecturae (sc. praetorio, an equestrian office)
administratione summovit. By the lawyers of the early part of the 3rd
century senatorial rank is treated as strictly hereditary. Not only
the sons, but the grandsons of senators are born into the senatorial
order, and cannot escape either the honours or the burdens attached
to the dignitas senatoria. Neither posthumous birth, nor adoption
into a family of lower rank, affects their position (Dig. 7, 35, 9,
7). As Mommsen has well said (Staatsr. iii. 467), the senatorial
order took the place as a hereditary nobility of the nobiles of the
later Republic, as they had in their turn superseded the patriciate.
[For the distinctive privileges and liabilities of the senatorial
order as thus constituted, see the next section;--for its general
position, cf. Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 865, iii. 466; Madvig, Verf. i.
123 sqq.; Friedländer, Sittengesch. i. 197 sqq.]

IV. Insignia, Privileges, &c.--In Republican times the senator bore
no distinctive title, for senator Romanus was never like eques
Romanus in official use. The title of courtesy clarissimus, though
not unfrequently applied to senators at an early date, was first
formally assigned to them in the 2nd century A.D. (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 565), and then or soon afterwards extended not only to their
sons, but to their wives and daughters. The outward insignia of the
senator were always the broad purple stripe on the tunic (latus
clavus) and the red sandals (calcei) with the crescent-shaped buckle
(luna), and the leathern thongs wound round the leg (lora). The
former of these insignia was possibly not older than the Gracchan
period (sero, Plin. H. N. xxxiii. § 29); the latter were originally
the distinctive mark of the patrician. Under the Empire the latus
clavus was assumed by a senator's son on reaching manhood; while the
red sandals were worn even in childhood (Stat. Silv. v. 2, 28).
Separate seats in the theatre were first assigned to senators in 194
B.C. (Liv. xxxiv. 44), and at the shows in the circus by Claudius
(Suet. Claud. 21). A variety of fresh distinctions were conceded as
the senatorial order under the Empire increasingly assumed the
character of a hereditary peerage, e. g. the right of entrée to the
imperial presence (Dio Cass. lvii. 11), and of banquets at the public
cost (Suet. Aug. 35), the use of covered carriages by their wives
(Dio Cass. lvii. 15), of silver plating upon their own vehicles (Vit.
Sev. Alex. 43), and of running footmen (cursores, Vit. Aurel. 49). In
the 3rd century A.D., and probably earlier still, they were exempt
from all burdens, though still eligible for honores in their own
municipia (Dig. 50, 1, 23, municeps esse desinit senatoriam adeptus
dignitatem, quantum ad munera: quantum vero ad honorem, retinere
creditur originem; cf. the omission in inscriptions of senators of
their place of domicile; see Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 2, 887, note 1).
Though subject, like other citizens, to the ordinary law, they were
outside the jurisdiction of municipal authorities. From Hadrian dated
the custom for the emperor to summon only senatorial assessors to sit
with him in judgment on a senator (Vit. Hadr. 8), a practice revived
by Severus Alexander (Vit. 21, ne quis non senator de Romano senatore
judicaret ). But the increased outward dignity of their position
under the Empire brought with it not only increased risk under the
worse emperors, but increased liabilities and restrictions. Their
exclusion from trade and from taking state contracts, as also their
liability and that of their sons to prosecution under the leges de
repetundis, date from republican times (Lex Claudia, Liv. xxi. 63:
cf. Dig. 50, 5; Lex Acilia de pec. repet. 2; Bruns, Fontes jur. Rom.
54; Cic. pro Cluent. 55, 150). In addition, Severus Alexander forbade
them to lend money except at a low rate of interest (Vit. 26). The
prohibition issued in Tiberius' reign against intercourse with stage-
buffoons (Ann. i. 77) was, like that against marriage with
libertinae, intended to preserve the dignity of the order. But
Claudius's edict forbidding praetorian guardsmen to attend the
morning levees of senators (Suet. Claud. 25) was no doubt provoked by
the same jealousy of senatorial interference with the army, which
finally led to their exclusion from military commands and from the
camps by Gallienus (Victor. Caes. 33). The separate taxation of
senators did not exist as a system before Diocletian (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 2, 900 f.). The costly obligation of providing games
was a magisterial rather than a senatorial burden. [LUDI; PRAETOR;
QUAESTOR. For the privilege originally enjoyed by senators of voting
in the equitum centuriae, and for their duty of serving as judices in
the quaestiones perpetuae, see COMITIA; JUDEX; QUAESTIO.]

V. Procedure.--The right to hold a meeting of the senate (senatum
habere), to consult it (consulere, referre, relationem facere), and
to carry a decree (senatusconsultum facere) belonged in the
Ciceronian age to consuls, praetors, and tribunes of the plebs; but
if all were present in Rome together, they could only exercise it in
the above order of precedence. The right no doubt attached to the
consulship and praetorship from the moment of their establishment. It
was acquired by the tribunate at some period previous to the
plebiscitum Atinium (? before 133 B.C.). The right was also given to
the dictator, interrex, [p. 627] and praefectus urbi. [See the
classical passage, Gell. xiv. 7, 8, Primum ibi ponit (Varro) per quos
more majorum senatus haberi soleret, eosque nominat, dictatorem,
consules, praetores, tribunos plebi, interregem, praefectum
urbi . . . tribunis plebi senatus habendi jus erat quamquam senatores
non essent ante Atinium plebiscitum. ] Any one of these magistrates
could be prevented from exercising the right by the interference of a
colleague, or of a superior, or of a tribune. [INTERCESSIO;
TRIBUNUS.] In the earlier times, when the consuls were frequently
absent from Rome in the field, the duty of convening the senate
constantly developed upon the praetor urbanus (Liv. xxii. 7; xxvi.
21; xlii. 8, &c.). In the Ciceronian age, it is regularly performed
by the consuls (Cic. ad Fam. xii. 2. 8; CONSUL). Augustus in 23 B.C.
was specially empowered to hold a senate as often as he would, even
when not consul (Dio Cass. liv. 3), and the power was continued to
his successors (Lex de Imp. Vesp. 2, utique ei senatum habere . . . .
liceat, ita uti licuit divo Augusto, &c. Tiberius before he was
formally invested with this power convened the senate tribuniciae
potestatis praescriptione sub Augusto acceptae, Tac. Ann. i. 7). But
even under the emperors it was usually the consuls who convened the
senate and presided at its meetings (Plin. Epp. ii. 11, princeps
praesidebat erat enim consul; cf. Id. Paneg. 76).

The magistrate who convened the senate determined also the place of
meeting, subject, however, to certain conditions. A lawful senate
could only be held in a templum, and, except in special cases, within
the pomerium (Gell. xiv. 7, in loco per augurem constituto, quod
templum appellaretur: see TEMPLUM). Among the ordinary meeting-places
of the senate in republican times were the Curia Hostilia and the
temples of Concord, of Castor, of Jupiter Stator, and of Tellus. The
senate could be convened outside the pomerium, but intra milia
passuum, if either embassies from states not in alliance with Rome or
a pro-magistrate [PROCONSUL; PROPRAETOR] were to take part in the
proceedings (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii., 930. As meeting-places outside
the pomerium, the temples of Apollo and of Bellona are mentioned:
Liv. xxxiv. 43; Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Plut. Sull. 30).

The senate could not be summoned to meet before sunrise or sit after
sunset (Gell. xiv. 7). But under the Republic there were no fixed
days for its meetings any more than for those of the Comitia.
Augustus first enacted that there should be two regular meetings held
in each month (Suet. Aug. 35, ne plus quam bis in mense legitimus
senatus ageretur Kal. et Idibus, Dio Cass. lv. 3). Nor is it clear
that in early times there were any days on which a senate could not
be lawfully held. But by a Lex Pupia, the date of which Mommsen fixes
at about 154 B.C., the magistrates were apparently forbidden to hold
a senate upon any day actually appointed for Comitia, or possibly
upon any of the days on which Comitia might legally be held (dies
comitiales, Cic. ad Fam. i. 4, senatus haberi ante Kal. Febr. per
legem Pupiam . . . non potest; Id. ad Q. Fr. ii. 2, consecuti sunt
dies comitiales per quos senatus haberi non potest: cf ad Fam. viii.
8; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 921-923).

The usual mode of summoning the senate (cogere senatum) was by a
proclamation issued by one or both the consuls, naming the date and
place of meeting, and occasionally stating the special business to be
considered (Liv. xxviii. 9, praemisso edicto ut triduo post senatus
ad aedem Bellonae adesset; Suet. Caes. 28, edicto praefatus se summa
de republica relaturlum; Cic. ad Fam. xi. 6, quam edixissent . . .
senatus adesset ). The procedure was the same if the magistrate
concerned was a praetor or tribune. The magistrate was empowered, if
necessary, to compel the attendance of senators by taking pledges for
their attendance, or by fining those who failed to appear (Gell. xiv,
7; Cic. de Legg. iii. 4, Phil. i. 12); but this power was, it would
seem, sparingly exercised under the later Republic, and the increased
numbers of the senate after 81 B.C., added to the fact that no quorum
was required by law, gave little occasion for its use. Under the
Empire it was otherwise. Augustus found it necessary not only to fix
a quorum (Dio Cass. lv. 3: see below), but to increase the penalties
for non-attendance (Dio Cass. liv. 18), and Claudius did the same
(Dio Cass. lx. 11: cf. Tac. Ann. xvi. 27, patres arguebat(Nero) quod
publica munia desererent ).

On the assembling of the senate, usually in the early morning, the
senators took their seats, as they chose, upon the benches
(subsellia) ranged in rows to the right and left of the curule chairs
of the presiding magistrates; the latter being so placed as to face
the door of the house. [Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 932, has shown that
under the Republic neither the ordinary senators nor, as Willems (ii.
173) maintains, the magistrates generally, had any special or fixed
seats.] Under the Empire the emperor's chair was placed between those
of the consuls (this seat was first assigned to Augustus in 19 B.C.:
Dio Cass. liv. 10); and separate seats were assigned to the
praetors., tribunes, and possibly to the other magistrates (Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 934). The proceedings opened with a sacrifice, followed
by the inspection of the victim's entrails (Gell. xiv. 7; Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 935).

The magistrate who summoned the senate also presided at its meetings,
and it is he who, subject to certain customary rules, determines what
business shall be laid before the house and in what order. It was his
duty, in the first place, to communicate to the senate any news of
importance, to read despatches received from officials abroad, and to
introduce provincial or foreign deputations (Caesar, B.C. i. 2; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 1. 2, 3; Liv. xliv. 20, 21). On his demand, or with his
permission, any individual senator might similarly read letters,
communicate information, or make a statement to the house. The same
privilege belonged to praetors and tribunes, as having the right to
consult the senate, even when not actually presiding.

The magistrate might follow up these preliminary communications by
referring one or more of the points raised to the senate for its
opinion, and the senate not unfrequently demanded by acclamation that
such a reference should be made. It rested, however, with the
magistrate to decide whether or not this further step should be taken
(Liv. xxx. 21, conclamatum ex omni parte curiae est, uti referret [p.
628] P. Aelius praetor; ib. xlii. 3, ex omnibus partibus postulabatur
ut consules earn rem ad senatum referrent; Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6;
Caes. B.C. i. 1, ut ex litteris ad senatum referretur, impetrari non
potuit ).

The formal consultation of the senate (relatio) was governed by a
variety of customary rules. After, usually, an explanation of the
business in question ( verba facere, Cic. ad Fam. viii. 8; Phil.
viii. 14, &c.), the magistrate asked the senate quid de ea re fieri
placet, without himself submitting a definite proposition (Sall. Cat.
30; Cic. Cat. i. 1. 0, iii. 13). Occasionally the magistrate
indicated his own view (Liv. xxxix. 39, sibi nisi quid aliud eis
videretur in animo esse . . . comitia habere. For instances of a
definite proposition, see Suet. Caes. 28, rettulit ad senatum ut ei
succederetur; Cic. Phil. i. 1, scriptum senatusconsultum quod fieri
vellet attulit; cf. Cic. Phil. x. 1. 7). It is significant of the
more dependent position of the senate in relation to the emperor that
the latter, when consulting the senate, usually made at the same time
a definite proposal (see below). The reference to the senate might
either be general ( infinite de republica, Gell. xiv. 7; cf. Liv.
xxvi. 10, de summa republica consultatum ) or special ( de singulis
rebus finite, Gell. xiv. 7; Cic. Phil. vii. 1, de Appia Via et de
Moneta ), and the senators might, in giving their sententiae, express
a wish for the separate reference of some particular question (Cic.
Phil. x. 2. 4, de M. Appuleio separatim censeo referendum, ad Fam.
viii. 8, ne quid conjunctim referatur ). Custom again prescribed in
general terms the order in which the business should be taken: de
rebus divinis priusquam humanis ad senatum referendum esse (Gell.
xiv. 7; cf. Liv. xxii. 9, ab diis orsus--tum de bello deque
republica ); but here again the practice at least of the later
Republic allowed a certain weight to the wishes of the senators
themselves, who might either directly demand urgency for a particular
question (Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6, flagitare senatus institit . . . ut
referret statim ), or indirectly force the magistrate's hand by
refusing to give opinions upon any matter until the desired point had
been submitted to them (Cic. ad Att. iii. 2. 4, senatum nihil
decernere, antequam de nobis actum esset; in Pison. 13, 29, quum
quacunque de re verbum facere coeperatis aut referre ad senatum,
cunctus ordo reclamabat, ostendebatque, nihil esse vos acturos, nisi
prius de me rettulissetis ). The right of reference (jus referendi,
consulendi senatum, cum patribus agendi) belonged, exclusively of
extraordinary magistrates, to consuls, tribunes of the plebs, and
praetors; the latter, however, do not appear to have exercised it
except in the absence of the consuls. As between consuls and
tribunes, the consul's business took precedence, though it would seem
from Cic. Phil. vii. 1, that if the questions were small ones, the
references of both consuls and tribunes might be put conjointly to
the house ( de Appia Via et de Moneta consul; de Lupercis tribunus
plebis refert ). To the emperors a special right of reference, as of
convening the senate, was granted by statute, in addition to that
which they possessed in virtue of the tribunicia potestas. This
right, granted to Augustus in 23 B.C. on his resignation of the
consulship (Dio Cass. liii. 32), and confirmed to his successors (Lex
Vespas. 2, Bruns, 128), invested him with the power of making the
first relatio (peri henos tinos, Dio Cass. op. cit.) at each meeting
of the senate, and was afterwards extended so as to enable him to
make four and even five relationes before the regular magistrates
took their turn ( jus quartae relationis, Vit. Pert. 5; quintae
relationis, Sev. Alex. 1; cf. Pelham, Journal of Philology, xvii. pp.
41, 42). At first at any rate the emperor, like the consul, made his
relatio in person; or, if unable to do so, communicated it in writing
through the consuls (Tiberius, Dio Cass. lviii, 11; Nero, Suet. Nero,
15). But from the close of the first century onwards the practice,
occasionally adopted by Augustus (Dio Cass. liv. 25) and by Claudius
(Id. lx. 2), of employing the quaestor principis as the emperor's
mouthpiece, became the regular one (QUAESTOR: cf. Digest 1, 13, 1,
quaestores . . . libris principalibus in senatu legendis vacant; ib.
4, quique epistulas eius in senatu legunt ). The relationes of the
emperor thus took the form of written speeches (orationes) or letters
(litterae, epistulae), and are usually referred to as such (Suet.
Tit. 6; Dig. 23, 2, 16, &c.).

The formal introduction of the business was followed, not by a
debate, in the modern sense of the word, but by the taking of the
sententiae (sententias rogare, perrogare) of the individual senators
in order. Just as the senate was in theory only a council of advice
consulted by the magistrate, so the senator's one duty was to give
his opinion (sententiam dicere), and technically in this one act both
speech and vote were included. But, as we shall see, considerations
of convenience, as well as the growing tendency to treat the senate's
expression of opinion as a positive decision, developed in practice a
process of counting votes actually, though not theoretically,
distinct from the taking of sententiae.

The magistrate, in taking the sententiae, was expected to follow a
well-established order of precedence, corresponding in the main to
that observed in the official roll (see above). Down to the time of
Sulla, the first sententia taken was that of the princeps senatus. In
the Ciceronian age the magistrate might select for this honour any
consular, subject only to two restrictions, as (1) he was expected to
adhere to the order adopted by him on his first day of office; (2)
after the consular elections, i. e. during the latter half of the
year, he was bound to give the priority to the consuls-designate. The
other consulares were taken next, usually in order of seniority;
after them the praetorii, aedilicii, &c. [It is possible that in
earlier times, before senatorial ascendancy was well established, the
magistrate's discretion in this respect was wider (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 974). The classical passage on the ordo sententiarum is Varro,
ap. Gell. xiv. 7, singulos autem debere consuli gradatim, incipique a
consulari gradu, ex quo gradu . . . antea primum rogari solitum qui
princeps in senatum lectus esset, tum autem cum haec scriberet . . .
ut is primus rogaretur, quem rogare vellet qui haberet senatum, dum
is tamen ex gradu consulari esset; cf. ib. iv. 10; Suet. Caes. 21,
post novam adfinitatem Pompeium primum rogare sententiam coepit
(Caesar). For the consules designati, comp. Sall. Cat. 50: Silanus
primus sententiam rogatus quod eo [p. 629] tempore consul designatus
erat; and Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Tac. Ann. iii. 22.] The right to give
an opinion, jus sententiam dicendae, belonged to all senators,
excepting only the magistrates of the year; the latter being in
theory the consulting and not the consulted parties (Liv. viii. 20;
Willems, ii. 189). It was only when the emperor made a relatio in
virtue of his special powers, that the sententiae of magistrates were
taken (Tac. Ann. iii. 17; Hist. iv. 41). But every magistrate could
at any moment interpose with a speech on the subject in hand.
[Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 943. The same author holds that in earlier
days plebeians directly admitted to the senate by consuls or censors,
without having held a qualifying magistracy, had no jus sententiae
dicendae (Staatsr. iii. 963), but could merely take part (pedibus
eundo) in the final discessio. Of this, however, there is no
sufficient evidence.] The question was put to each senator in turn in
the simple form die M. Tulli (quid censes) (Liv. i. 32; Cic. ad Att.
vii. 1), but the modes of reply were various. (1) The senator might
rise, discuss the question in a set speech, and close with a formal
statement of his opinion, so worded as to form the basis of a decree
( stantem sententiam dicere, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 4,
surrexit, ornatissimeque locutus est. For the form of the closing
statement of opinion, comp. Phil. xiv. 29, decerno igitur, &c.; ib.
x. 25, quod consul . . . verba fecit de litteris de ea re ita censeo;
ib. v. 46, ita censeo decernendum ). It was occasionally drafted in
writing beforehand (Phil. iii. 20). This method was that which, in
cases of any importance, consulars and other prominent senators were
expected to adopt (Liv. xxvii. 34). (2) He might, without rising,
express his agreement with some previous sententia, either verbo
(Cic. ad Att. vii. 3, dic M. Tulli: suntoma, Cn. Pompeio adsentior ),
or by a nod, or by holding up his hand ( verbo assentiebatur; Liv.
xxvii. 34; cf. Sall. Cat. 52, sedens assensi; Cic. ad Fam. v. 2). (3)
He might cross over to the side of a senator with whose opinion he
agreed ( pedibus ire in sententiam, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Q. Fr.
ii. 1, 3; Vit. Aureliani, 20, interrogati plerique senatores
sententias dixerunt . . . deinde aliis manus porrigentibus, aliis
pedibus in sententias euntibus, plerisque verbo consentientibus ). By
this method, a senator who had already given his sententia at length,
might indicate that he had changed his mind (Sall. Cat. 50,
Silanus . . . primus sententiam rogatus . . . decreverat: isque
postea permotus oratione G. Caesaris pedibus in sententiam Tiberi
Neronis iturum se dixerat ).

In strictness this orderly taking of opinions on business introduced
by a magistrate precluded both the introduction of fresh matter by
those consulted, and also any debate in the modern sense of the word.
But, in the Ciceronian age, custom sanctioned a freedom of speech
really inconsistent with the theory of the procedure. For a senator,
when asked for his opinion on a particular point, to seize the
opportunity to deliver a lengthy oration on some wholly irrelevant
matter, was a privilege thoroughly well recognised and frequently
exercised ( egredi relationem, Gell. iv. 10; Tac. Ann. ii. 38,; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 2. 8, quum tribuni plebis. . .de alia re referrent, totam
rempublicam sum complexus ). It was indeed the only means open to the
senator of forcing upon the attention of the senate subjects which
the magistrates were unwilling formally to bring before it (Cic.
Phil. vii. 1, parvis de rebus consulimur . . . tamen animus aberrat a
sententia, suspensus curis majoribus ). That the presiding magistrate
could not compel a senator to speak to the question is clear, and it
is doubtful how far he was able to limit the duration of his speech.
According to Ateius Capito (Gell. iv. 10), a senator could say,
quicquid vellet . . . et quoad vellet; and several instances are
recorded in which a measure was, as we should say, talked out (Cic.
ad Att. iv. 3, calumnia dicendi tempus exemit; Gell. iv. 10, eximebat
dicendo diem; cf. Cic. ad Att. iv. 2, ad Q. Fr. ii. 1, 3). One
instance only is recorded in which the presiding magistrate exercised
his authority to check this abuse, and then the feeling of the house
was decidedly against him (Caesar's arrest of Cato, Gell. iv. 10). On
another occasion the senate by resolution decided that the speeches
should be brief (Cic. ad Fam. i. 2). The altercationes, which were
not infrequent in the Ciceronian age, were certainly out of order,
but were as certainly tolerated (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 947; Willems,
ii. 191).

The theory of the procedure unquestionably implied that the
magistrate took the sense of the house on the matter which he had
laid before them, by asking each senator in turn to give his opinion
(perrogare sententias); and there is no evidence that he could, by
any form of closure, abridge the process (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 983,
as against Willems, i. 194). It is also possible that in the early
days, when the senate was still a subordinate and purely consultative
body, the sense of the house as expressed in the course of this
process was taken as sufficient, and that no formal division
(discessio) followed. But when the senate became in fact the
governing council, the business before it increased in amount and
complexity, and the importance of its decisions increased also. These
changes, coupled with the rise in its numbers from 300 to 600,
modified the character of the perrogatio sententiarum, and
necessitated a more exact method of taking a vote, i. e. of
determining where the majority of sententiae lay. (But the voting was
not technically distinct from the giving an opinion; nor is it
conceivable that, as Mommsen holds, there were senators who could
vote but who were legally unable sententiam dicere.) The accounts we
have of the procedure in the senate during the Ciceronian age, make
it clear that sententiae, in the shape of formal proposals explained
and advocated in speeches, were as a rule only given by the highest
category of senators, the consulares and praetorii, and that the rest
contented themselves with a brief assent (verbo), or ranged
themselves behind the speaker they agreed with (pedarii. The cases of
Cato in 63 B.C., who, though only tribunus designatus, gave the
sententia which was ultimately adopted, and of P. Servilius
Isauricus, Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 9, were no doubt exceptional). On the
perrogatio followed, at least in Cicero's time, the pronuntiatio
sententiarum: where only one definite [p. 630] proposal had been
made; or when the sense of the house was clearly in favour of a
particular sententia, the case was simple. But where, as in the
debate on the restoration of Ptolemy Auletes (Cic. ad Fam. i. 1 and
2), several conflicting sententiae had been given, and there was a
real division of opinion, the difficulty was considerable. It rested
with the magistrate who had made the relatio to take the division on
such sententiae, and in such order as he thought best; and he might
decline to put such as seemed to him inexpedient (Willems, ii. 194;
Cic. Phil. xiv. 2. 2), or to be covered, or better expressed by
others (Cic. ad Att. xii. 2. 1, cur ergo in sententiam Catonis, quia
verbis luculentioribus et pluribus rem eandem comprehenderat ). As a
rule, however, the sententiae were put to the vote in the order in
which they had been given. If the first was carried, the rest, if
inconsistent with it, naturally fell to the ground. A single
seenentia might lastly be divided and put as two (Cic. pro Mil. 14,
divisa est sententia; cf. ad Fam. i. 2). The difficulties involved in
the putting a variety of sententiae to the house so as to get a clear
decision are well described by Pliny (Epp. viii. 14, quae distinctio
pugnantium sententiarum quae exsecutio prioribus addentium, <br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24854 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Salvete Quirites,

L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave Lucius Arminius,
>
> I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> consent to post this information here?

While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I think
we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the bottom
of Faustus' post, you'll see:

> A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD.
> William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray.
> 1890.

The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the University of
Kansas history department website.)

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24855 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae S.D.

salve, Cornelius Sulla.

But this does not answer my question: is this land or is it not to be
used, in conjunction with our stated "territorial" claim, to form the
center of a temporal state in which everything of the ancient Roman
State (Mid-Republic or otherwise) possible practical and will be
recreated? Or will it be a Disney-esque theme park that we can visit
and in which we can run around togate? This piggy-backs on the (as
yet unanswered) question I posed to Scaurus: What exactly is the
purpose of Nova Roma? Where do you see it going? What is the
ultimate goal?

vale,

Cato




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Cato
>
> It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess.
Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is where
our initial purchases's were made.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
>
> Salve, Cornelius Sulla.
>
> "Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
> to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign
> state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world
> capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in
the
> form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
> governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."
>
> Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that, sometime
in
> the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of
Vatican
> City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of
> Nova Roma, located here:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
> >
> > Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
> >
> > We recognize the modern political realities which make the
> restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
> limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
> equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
> contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the
admistration
> of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum.
The
> exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital
is
> to be determined.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24857 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Salve,

Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the full
bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is added
before any text:

"This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner."

Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization, and
we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the full
reference and link where we took it, not making it public (although
it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively Kansas
and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we can
veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher will
even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of his
potential customers.

These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I publish
them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to abandon
the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very source
and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
Republic needs desesperatly.



Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> >
> > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > consent to post this information here?
>
> While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
think
> we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
bottom
> of Faustus' post, you'll see:
>
> > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
LLD.
> > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John
Murray.
> > 1890.
>
> The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the University
of
> Kansas history department website.)
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24858 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
The Stated goal is a forum, not a colony. It will contain governmental
buildings and Temples, NOT homes for Nova Romans.

The Goal isn't to have a seperate little country with Nova Romans
dwelling there. It isn't a goal to have people actually living within
it's confines any more than it's a goal of the Catholic Church to have
all Catholics move to Vatican City.

I Have no doubts that some citizens will desire to dwell near the
Forum, but they will be subject to the Laws of the nation that the
Forum is located in just as Catholics living in the city of Roma are
subject to Italian Law rather than to laws of the Vatican State.

The Nova Roman Micronation was founded as a legal fiction set up to
serve the Religio's need to have a state to function as the religion
of. It's not a Roman colony project, not that such a thing would even
be possible given modern realities of nations carefully gaurding their
territory. Even the modest claim of a Forum that has the independace
of the Vatican is a very long term goal and one that is very unlikely
to be fulfilled in the foreseeable future, though we may meet a more
limited goal of a Forum that lacks territorial independance.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae S.D.
>
> salve, Cornelius Sulla.
>
> But this does not answer my question: is this land or is it not to be
> used, in conjunction with our stated "territorial" claim, to form the
> center of a temporal state in which everything of the ancient Roman
> State (Mid-Republic or otherwise) possible practical and will be
> recreated? Or will it be a Disney-esque theme park that we can visit
> and in which we can run around togate? This piggy-backs on the (as
> yet unanswered) question I posed to Scaurus: What exactly is the
> purpose of Nova Roma? Where do you see it going? What is the
> ultimate goal?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Cato
> >
> > It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess.
> Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is where
> our initial purchases's were made.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
> >
> >
> > Salve, Cornelius Sulla.
> >
> > "Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
> > to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign
> > state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world
> > capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in
> the
> > form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
> > governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."
> >
> > Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that, sometime
> in
> > the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of
> Vatican
> > City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> > <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > > Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of
> > Nova Roma, located here:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
> > >
> > > Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
> > >
> > > We recognize the modern political realities which make the
> > restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
> > limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
> > equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
> > contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the
> admistration
> > of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum.
> The
> > exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital
> is
> > to be determined.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24859 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Ave,

You have reached an impasse that no one has been yet to provide an answer. Will it be a theme park with administrative offices fashioned as a Roman Disneyesque feel to it? Who knows...we are so far from that point it is unnecessary at this juncture to even debate it. Will the land be an island or on some mainland territory? Your guess is as good as mine.

My personal opinion is that it will be much like the Vatican, which inspired the territory of NR in that it will have some administrative offices, houses and serve as a tourist destination that would be kind of like a Williamsburg, VA where people who are permanent residents dress and act like the Romans of the Mid Republic. But again, that is just my opinion and I am certain others will disagree with me.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:08 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae S.D.

salve, Cornelius Sulla.

But this does not answer my question: is this land or is it not to be
used, in conjunction with our stated "territorial" claim, to form the
center of a temporal state in which everything of the ancient Roman
State (Mid-Republic or otherwise) possible practical and will be
recreated? Or will it be a Disney-esque theme park that we can visit
and in which we can run around togate? This piggy-backs on the (as
yet unanswered) question I posed to Scaurus: What exactly is the
purpose of Nova Roma? Where do you see it going? What is the
ultimate goal?

vale,

Cato




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Cato
>
> It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess.
Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is where
our initial purchases's were made.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
>
> Salve, Cornelius Sulla.
>
> "Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
> to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign
> state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world
> capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in
the
> form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
> governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."
>
> Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that, sometime
in
> the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of
Vatican
> City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of
> Nova Roma, located here:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
> >
> > Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
> >
> > We recognize the modern political realities which make the
> restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
> limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
> equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
> contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the
admistration
> of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum.
The
> exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital
is
> to be determined.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24861 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but have been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack of a response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of other reasons.

Respectfully,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Salve,

Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the full
bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is added
before any text:

"This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner."

Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization, and
we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the full
reference and link where we took it, not making it public (although
it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively Kansas
and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we can
veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher will
even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of his
potential customers.

These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I publish
them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to abandon
the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very source
and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
Republic needs desesperatly.



Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> >
> > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > consent to post this information here?
>
> While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
think
> we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
bottom
> of Faustus' post, you'll see:
>
> > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
LLD.
> > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John
Murray.
> > 1890.
>
> The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the University
of
> Kansas history department website.)
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24862 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post them!

Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but have
been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack of a
response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of other
reasons.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
> online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the
full
> bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is
added
> before any text:
>
> "This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
> only. The text is copyright of its owner."
>
> Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization,
and
> we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the
full
> reference and link where we took it, not making it public
(although
> it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively
Kansas
> and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we
can
> veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher
will
> even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of
his
> potential customers.
>
> These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
publish
> them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
abandon
> the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very
source
> and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
> subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
> Republic needs desesperatly.
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > >
> > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > > consent to post this information here?
> >
> > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
> think
> > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
> bottom
> > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> >
> > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
> LLD.
> > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London.
John
> Murray.
> > > 1890.
> >
> > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
University
> of
> > Kansas history department website.)
> >
> > Valete Quirites,
> >
> > -- Marinus
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24865 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: About the "Your Website" message
Salvete Quirites,

I've just deleted the "Your Website" message and the three short
followup messages in which it was quoted. The address was spoofed, with
the From field claiming that it was sent by citizen Quintus Lanius
Paulinus, who has just assured me he didn't send it.

Yahoo is supposed to strip off any attachments, and I didn't find
anything attached to the message as I received it, but I decided to
delete the message from the archive since it obviously contributed
nothing to the discourse and may have been inimical in some way.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24866 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: About the "Your Website" message
IIRC "Your Website" is one of the headers spoofed by the Klez virus.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@c...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I've just deleted the "Your Website" message and the three short
> followup messages in which it was quoted. The address was spoofed,
with
> the From field claiming that it was sent by citizen Quintus Lanius
> Paulinus, who has just assured me he didn't send it.
>
> Yahoo is supposed to strip off any attachments, and I didn't find
> anything attached to the message as I received it, but I decided to
> delete the message from the archive since it obviously contributed
> nothing to the discourse and may have been inimical in some way.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24867 From: John Michael Keba Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve Merlini,

It's been awhile - avoiding me? Or just disapproving?

Gaius Ambrosius Artorus wrote:

> What I don't understand is, how much do you think you
> can change the mos maiorum of Roma Antiqua and still have it be
> something that is recognizably Roman?

The last time I checked, I was living in a recognizably Roman culture.
Our Founding Fathers were children of the Enlightenment and surely knew
their Cicero far better than you or I. Our laws are Roman, our
patriotism is Roman, our pragmatism is Roman. Why did America save
Europe's ass twice last century? Because we are the uncultured,
unphilosophical rubes that suck it up and get things done. Why has there
been a Pax Americana for 60! years? Because our legionaries have been
walking the wall.

Minerva, Calliope, Eratus, and all the rest have been waiting for a long
time. They loved the Romans because of their Virtues. Roman virtues need
to revived in the world. The Gods can wait, patiently I suspect, a bit
longer.

Aulus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24868 From: labienus@novaroma.org Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
T Labienus Fortunatus omnibus SPD

> Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores

Salve Luci Sicini

> No it's not a strawman...

I think you've misunderstood what's been proposed. That said, I do see why you
might think your argument's not a straw man. Then again, I can understand why
slavery and women's rights are not always straw man arguments.

> If this very ahistoric office of Censor...

As I understand A Apollonius, I think he's overstating the censores' role as
moral guardians, but his proposal will make the censores *more* historical than
they are now.
___________________

> Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate

Salve Luci Corneli

> I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in school...

Mi Sulla, you, yourself, just re-published the entire article, leading to a
300kb(!) digest in my inbox.

Please, in the name of simple courtesy, learn to cut the posts that you are
replying to. It wouldn't have taken but a moment to select and delete the
article from beneath your reply, and it would have saved so much bandwidth.
___________________

> Subject: Re: Re:your website

Salve iterum Luci Corneli

> Can someone translate this for me? It came out as jibberish.

I believe that it was spam.

Valete
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24869 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salvete Quirites,

Just a friendly reminder to all from your list moderator to please keep
the discussion civil.

Thank you.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24870 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve Consul,

A reminder like yours is always timely, but I hope no one on the list
gets the idea that Celetrus' response to my message was anything but
civil. Celetrus is my gens-mate. He and I enjoy a cordial
relationship, and frequent personal correspondence, although we have
very different philosophies. If there is anything in Celetrus'
message that strikes anyone as abrasive, be assured that I do not
read it that way. I see only a chummy message written in a style that
presupposes our friendship.

Vale,
Artorus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Just a friendly reminder to all from your list moderator to please
keep
> the discussion civil.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24871 From: John Michael Keba Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Ambrosius Celetrus Equito Marino S.P.D.
and to all Nova Romans across the world.

I've avoided the ML religiously for over a month. My reply was meant for
my my kinsman, other wise I would never have been so familiar in my
salutations. Artorus and I have been frank in our personal discussions.
Incivility is in the context of this inadvertent post.

I apologize to all non-American cives. Everything American comes form
you and the members of your families that have graced our shores. I
think America has been a stabilizing force in the world. I think we owe
are stability to the best of "our" ancestors. That is my opinion -
please do not turn it into another matter of controversy.

I hope you all accept this apology.

Aulus Ambrosius Celetrus



Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Just a friendly reminder to all from your list moderator to please
> keep
> the discussion civil.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
[click here]

>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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> Service.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24872 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
Salve,

A Historic Censors office would be the election of two Consulars every
5 years for the purpose of conducting a Census, up dating the lists of
Senators and Knights, and letting out any state contracts that Nova
Roma might require, ie Web Hosting or insurance for that Tezas land.

Once these tasks were compleated the Censors would conduct the Lustrum
Ritual and the term of office would end.

In Antiquita this took an average of 18 months, but due to Nova Roma's
far smaller size our Censors should be able to complete the job in 6
months or less. the office would then remain vacant for the next 4 1/2
years.

The most ahistoric aspect of the Nova Roma Censors office isn't
dealing with new citizens, it's having Censors in office on a constant
basis.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, labienus@n... wrote:

> As I understand A Apollonius, I think he's overstating the censores'
role as
> moral guardians, but his proposal will make the censores *more*
historical than
> they are now.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24873 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Ave, Cornelius Sulla.

Believe it or not, I actually can see the same sort of thing; perhaps
we are more optimistic than Sicinius Drusus? This is why I return
consistently to a discussion of looking at the mos maiorum in a
concrete way: I actually can envision a time at which we will try to
order our lives around a "living" mos maiorum. Perhaps this is
foolish; I hope not. This also may explain why I, at least, have
shown a continuing concern for the development of laws and the
Constitution, perhaps to the annoyance of some who read this list. I
will continue to travel hopefully.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> You have reached an impasse that no one has been yet to provide an
answer. Will it be a theme park with administrative offices
fashioned as a Roman Disneyesque feel to it? Who knows...we are so
far from that point it is unnecessary at this juncture to even debate
it. Will the land be an island or on some mainland territory? Your
guess is as good as mine.
>
> My personal opinion is that it will be much like the Vatican, which
inspired the territory of NR in that it will have some administrative
offices, houses and serve as a tourist destination that would be kind
of like a Williamsburg, VA where people who are permanent residents
dress and act like the Romans of the Mid Republic. But again, that
is just my opinion and I am certain others will disagree with me.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:08 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
>
> G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae S.D.
>
> salve, Cornelius Sulla.
>
> But this does not answer my question: is this land or is it not
to be
> used, in conjunction with our stated "territorial" claim, to form
the
> center of a temporal state in which everything of the ancient
Roman
> State (Mid-Republic or otherwise) possible practical and will be
> recreated? Or will it be a Disney-esque theme park that we can
visit
> and in which we can run around togate? This piggy-backs on the
(as
> yet unanswered) question I posed to Scaurus: What exactly is the
> purpose of Nova Roma? Where do you see it going? What is the
> ultimate goal?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Cato
> >
> > It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess.
> Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is
where
> our initial purchases's were made.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
> >
> >
> > Salve, Cornelius Sulla.
> >
> > "Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
> > to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the
sovereign
> > state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world
> > capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded
in
> the
> > form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
> > governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."
> >
> > Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that,
sometime
> in
> > the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of
> Vatican
> > City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> > <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > > Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the
Declaration of
> > Nova Roma, located here:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
> > >
> > > Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
> > >
> > > We recognize the modern political realities which make the
> > restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore
we
> > limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at
least
> > equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City;
108
> > contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the
> admistration
> > of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum
Romanum.
> The
> > exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual
capital
> is
> > to be determined.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24874 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Someone mentioned that we should have some disclaimers on the main site and
Yahoo NR site about the information that people post being accessible when you
post. I believe that we should have an agreement for anyone who has been a
citizen for longer than six months who uses the re-establishment of slavery,
blood sport, or restriction of women's equality to defend or refute any
argument/debate on any NR approved list should automatically be put on moderated status
and/or have to pay a fine to the treasury to be removed from that status.

Anyone who actually uses such tactics is obviously not ready to be allowed
unrestricted access to the lists. While slavery may still exist in some
portions of the globe, along with blood sports and women as property, it doesn't
exist in Nova Roma and (hopefully) never will. It is an enormous disappointment
to many citizens that normally rational, intelligent humans would use such
arguments to defend/refute points of difference. It shows a lack of imagination
and a loss of touch with what most humans would call reality. Most people who
are not pagan would likely be able to embrace the belief in polytheism than
the re-establishment of slavery.

I might go so far as to propose that the subject of the re-establishment of
chattel slavery, blood sport, or decreased legal rights for women in NR be
forbidden subjects. Of course, the academic or historical discussion and sharing
of information (in that context only) on slavery, blood sport, and the status
of women during the period of Nova Roma's focus would still be allowed.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24875 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I find myself in the unenviable position of supporting a conservative point
of view in the current debate. The basis of Nova Roma rests less on historical
documentation of the Mos Maiorum or on modernism but upon the bedrock of the
Religio and the Roman Virtues; both public and personal. Most modern
countries (based on the Democratic Republican form of government) strive to achieve
the public virtues of Old Rome and would like their citizens to practice and
pass on to their children those personal virtues. Whenever a law or edict is
proposed to be voted on by the assemblies and the Senate, the first consideration
should not be of modern, liberal (or, in my case, moderate) views and
opinions but on rather the proposed law is in keeping with the Roman Virtues and then
rather it will strengthen Nova Roma rather than divide or weaken it. Nova
Roma is not a theocratic organization but it is a spiritual organization
dedicated to the restoration of the practice AND FAITH in the Religio. At no other
time in the history of the world was there such a far-reaching and diverse
state in which so much toleration was given to so many varied beliefs.

Although there will always be some lapses of civility or good sense in Nova
Roma, the foundation and execution of every debate, argument, and action should
be centered upon the Virtues and the restoration of the Religio which
promises so much toleration.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24876 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
G. Equitius Cato F. Galerio Aureliano S.D.

salve Galerius Aurelianus.

If this sort of proscription had existed in the U.S. Congress in the
19th Century, there might still be chattel slavery in the Southern
States. The persons who thus far have mentioned slavery are not "new
to the List, have done so within a *very* specific context, made
specific disclaimers regarding the context, and unless you read the
series of posts, you may not have understood that context. I
encourage you to do so.

I agree wholeheartedly that there should be some kind of statement
regarding the mos maiorum of ancient Rome and our changes to it; part
of discovering the basis for change is in this very discussion.

vale,

Cato



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> Someone mentioned that we should have some disclaimers on the main
site and
> Yahoo NR site about the information that people post being
accessible when you
> post. I believe that we should have an agreement for anyone who
has been a
> citizen for longer than six months who uses the re-establishment of
slavery,
> blood sport, or restriction of women's equality to defend or refute
any
> argument/debate on any NR approved list should automatically be put
on moderated status
> and/or have to pay a fine to the treasury to be removed from that
status.
>
> Anyone who actually uses such tactics is obviously not ready to be
allowed
> unrestricted access to the lists. While slavery may still exist in
some
> portions of the globe, along with blood sports and women as
property, it doesn't
> exist in Nova Roma and (hopefully) never will. It is an enormous
disappointment
> to many citizens that normally rational, intelligent humans would
use such
> arguments to defend/refute points of difference. It shows a lack
of imagination
> and a loss of touch with what most humans would call reality. Most
people who
> are not pagan would likely be able to embrace the belief in
polytheism than
> the re-establishment of slavery.
>
> I might go so far as to propose that the subject of the re-
establishment of
> chattel slavery, blood sport, or decreased legal rights for women
in NR be
> forbidden subjects. Of course, the academic or historical
discussion and sharing
> of information (in that context only) on slavery, blood sport, and
the status
> of women during the period of Nova Roma's focus would still be
allowed.
>
> Valete.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24877 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I have responded to this citizen in a private post.
Valete.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato F. Galerio Aureliano S.D.
>
> salve Galerius Aurelianus.
>
> If this sort of proscription had existed in the U.S. Congress in
the
> 19th Century, there might still be chattel slavery in the Southern
> States. The persons who thus far have mentioned slavery are
not "new
> to the List, have done so within a *very* specific context, made
> specific disclaimers regarding the context, and unless you read the
> series of posts, you may not have understood that context. I
> encourage you to do so.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly that there should be some kind of statement
> regarding the mos maiorum of ancient Rome and our changes to it;
part
> of discovering the basis for change is in this very discussion.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> > F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
> >
> > Someone mentioned that we should have some disclaimers on the
main
> site and
> > Yahoo NR site about the information that people post being
> accessible when you
> > post. I believe that we should have an agreement for anyone who
> has been a
> > citizen for longer than six months who uses the re-establishment
of
> slavery,
> > blood sport, or restriction of women's equality to defend or
refute
> any
> > argument/debate on any NR approved list should automatically be
put
> on moderated status
> > and/or have to pay a fine to the treasury to be removed from that
> status.
> >
> > Anyone who actually uses such tactics is obviously not ready to
be
> allowed
> > unrestricted access to the lists. While slavery may still exist
in
> some
> > portions of the globe, along with blood sports and women as
> property, it doesn't
> > exist in Nova Roma and (hopefully) never will. It is an enormous
> disappointment
> > to many citizens that normally rational, intelligent humans would
> use such
> > arguments to defend/refute points of difference. It shows a lack
> of imagination
> > and a loss of touch with what most humans would call reality.
Most
> people who
> > are not pagan would likely be able to embrace the belief in
> polytheism than
> > the re-establishment of slavery.
> >
> > I might go so far as to propose that the subject of the re-
> establishment of
> > chattel slavery, blood sport, or decreased legal rights for women
> in NR be
> > forbidden subjects. Of course, the academic or historical
> discussion and sharing
> > of information (in that context only) on slavery, blood sport,
and
> the status
> > of women during the period of Nova Roma's focus would still be
> allowed.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24878 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: National Gathering
How many Citizen's use Webcams with AIM, Yahoo, etc? If a lot do, we
could regularly
schedule AV Chat sessions. I was wondering because I was thinking about buying a
iSight for my iMac. They cost about $150 and I don't want to waste my money.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus


On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:00:24 -0400, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites, et salve Flavi Vedi,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> > Here's an idea; perhaps (once we get a full-time Curator Araneum,
> > that is), we could change the album civium somewhat. Include a
> > section that says "Warning—any information you enter below will be
> > visible to others" or somesuch. It would be completely voluntary,
> > where citizens can put up more information about themselves; city,
> > interests, etc.
>
> It's an excellent idea, and one I'll recommend to a Webmaster just as
> soon as we have one.
>
> > Ah, yes, Roman Days. This past weekend was as fine a time as
> > I've had in NR. There really is no substitute for pressing the
> > flesh and meeting your fellow cives face-to-face.
>
> Yes, it was a lovely time. I'm pleased that you were able to join us.
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24879 From: lori bannick Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
To avoid the copy write infringement all that is necessary in agroup setting like ours is that the post contaim a disclaimer:

I am not the author of the proceeding document, it has been presented for Educational purposes and all known Authors have been given due and proper credit. ANY THING USED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES has to tie into the basic theme of the Group. The Educational purposes clause in the copy write laws allows this.
Raven


Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
Salvete Quirites,

L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave Lucius Arminius,
>
> I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> consent to post this information here?

While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I think
we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the bottom
of Faustus' post, you'll see:

> A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith, LLD.
> William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London. John Murray.
> 1890.

The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the University of
Kansas history department website.)

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24880 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: In Boston tommorow
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix S.P.D.

Salvete.

I'm going to be in Boston tommrow for a test, and I expect to be
finished by 1 pm. If any citizens in the Boston area are interested in
getting together tommorow in the afternoon or evening for
coffee/beer/lunch/etc. please let me know!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24881 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Webcams and AIM (was RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering)
Salve Gn Cornelius Lentulus,



I�ve got a webcam that I�ve used with Yahoo (although I use AIM exclusively at this point). If I can get it to work with AIM, I�ll be happy to participate.



Vale,



Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Pater Patriae



AIM: Flavius Vedius



-----Original Message-----
*From:* Charlie Collins [mailto:iguard@...]
*Sent:* Friday, June 18, 2004 7:46 PM
*To:* nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering



How many Citizen's use Webcams with AIM, Yahoo, etc? If a lot do, we
could regularly
schedule AV Chat sessions. I was wondering because I was thinking about buying a
iSight for my iMac. They cost about $150 and I don't want to waste my money.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24882 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: An idea for reforming the Censorship
Fl Vedius Germanicus Novaromanii S.P.D.



Salvete omnes,



As I have outlined in a recent post (and others have noted), the modern practice of keeping a continuous string of Censores in office for two years is extremely ahistorical, and was done simply because we couldn�t think of any better way to handle a continuous influx of new Cives. The result is that, rather than being an honor and �the capstone of a political career�, the office of Censor is in reality one of the most arduous, annoying, and close-to-full-time jobs that exists within the Republic.



I think I have a solution that will solve that problem, while at the same time bringing us closer to the practice of Roma Antiqua, while at the same time enabling us to allow for our constant influx of new Cives.



Historically, the office of Censor had varying responsibilities, chief of which was the conduct of the census. The census was an accounting of the album civium, upon which was based the distribution of tribes and centuries. They also assigned public contracts for tax collection and the use of public resources such as mines. They controlled the membership in the Album Senatorum, and were able to issue notae that would remove a citizen�s right to vote and remain in the Senate, but would not remove their obligation to pay taxes. They were elected every five years (four in the earliest years of their existence), and served for eighteen months, during which time they were discharged from their duties for the next three-and-a-half-years, after which time a new pair were elected.



Currently, the Censores are elected for a two-year term, and during that time are empowered to maintain the alba civium/senatorum/gentium/equester, and issue notae.



My thought is thus (it's radical! It's a complete change in the way we do things! But ultimately it's more historical, and serves our needs as modern Nova Romans better.):



Rather than maintain that there is a sort of �rolling census� (which is the current state of affairs), we move to a point where the official census is conducted every five years, as according to the mid-Republican historical model. In the place of the official census (which would, incidentally, give a perfect opportunity to prune away inactive citizens by removing them from the album civium; oh man this gets better and better! We're hitting so many birds with this stone!), we might empower the rogatores to accept votes from new cives, in the interim period between official censi, thus shifting the burden of registering new cives from the Censores to the Rogatores.



I would point out that voting rights in Roma Antiqua could not have been denied in the absence of an official Census, since there were long periods of time (sometimes spanning decades!) when no official Census was conducted, especially after Sulla's dictatorship. And yet elections continued unabated.



The Rogatores, historically, were responsible for ensuring that only those who were eligible to vote did so. They would maintain that function. Naturally, this would place an otherwise untenable burden on the Rogatores; managing elections are bad enough, without adding to the burden the duties of keeping track of new cives as well! They would bring in new cives, and their decisions would be confirmed by the official Census a few years down the road. In essence, there would be nothing lacking in practical terms but the official stamp of Censorial approval.



So� we reinstitute the office of Custodies (guardians), who, after the institution of the secret ballot between 139-107 BCE, controlled the actual cistae. They take care of the actual voting, leaving the Rogatores to sift through the folks who are eligible to vote (and in the process dealing with registering new cives), and the Censores are given back their status of being elected once every 5 years to conduct an official Census, (during which inactive cives are tossed out and the interim additions to the voting roster are ratified) and the issuance of notae, etc. It being such a rare magistracy to be held, it is returned to its status as a feather in the magisterial cap, rather than being a ticket for burn-out.



It�s not a perfect solution, of course, and still not completely in keeping with the practices of Roma Antiqua, but if I may make so bold, it is a far sight closer than our present situation, and is in fact a better allocation of duties than we presently possess.



One other thing that is how to help new cives take historical Roman names. In Roma Antiqua, it was just a matter of tradition and culture. In Nova Roma, it�s something we need to give more structure to. I�m sure there�s a solution, even if it�s only that we establish a committee of some sort to give (binding?) advice on constructing a Roman name. If there were simply a set of hard-and-fast rules that the Rogatores could apply, that would be ideal.



So, in a nutshell, here�s my idea:



1) Censores are elected every 5 years, for an 18-month (maximum) term.

a. During their term, they conduct a Census, culling out inactive cives, registering new ones officially, and fixing the centuries and tribes

b. They also issue notae, if warranted

c. They also hand out contracts for administration of public resources (I love the idea of contracting the website this way, although give the Senate or Consuls the power to step in between Censorships if needed)



2) Create a new class of virginsextivi, known as Custodies, whose job it is to conduct elections and other voting procedures. The job currently done by the rogatores.



3) Give the rogatores different duties, placing them in the role of handling day-to-day citizenship applications and placing new cives in tribes and centuries. Give them access to some resource (either a committee of some other body of folks, or a set of hard-and-fast rules) to manage the creation of Roman names. We might not need as many rogatores as we have currently, given this change, or we might want to keep the duties spread amongst a larger number of people.



The Censores would absolutely need to be replaced with someone else as the corporate secretary. I kinda like the idea of breaking out the Consuls and Praetors to fill out the corporate slots rather than having co-officers, but that's a more detailed discussion for another time. All this would require an amendment to the Constitution anyway, so making that specific alteration (a point someone raised during the conversation) could be included as part of that process.



It's a big idea, I know. Before you post a reply, I would ask that you read it completely. Chew on it. Let it settle in your mind. Give it a day to sink in.



As always, in service to the Republic,



Vale,



Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Pater Patriae





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24883 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

The fundamental problem with your argument is that there is no logical
stopping point. The only reliable test of the Romanitas of a practice
is the historical record. Anything else places us at the whim of
everyone's fantasy of Rome "should be." One of the reasons I advocate a
policy of deviating from the historical practice of the Roman Republic
only when it is literally impossible to do otherwise is that I have seen
ample evidence of historically-oriented organisation which have gone
down the "should have been" road -- the SCA is one of them -- they
resemble modern pastiches of Victorian and twentieth-century
romanticisations of history. I have no desire to participate in your or
any one else's fantasy of what Rome should be. I want only to follow
the historical example of the mos maiorum to the fullest extent
possible, abandoning it only when it is absolutely impossible to achieve.

The argument that we should be recreating Rome as it would be in the
21st century strikes me as being profoundly silly. We know what Rome is
in the 21th century. It is the capital of the Republic of Italy. If
one wants to live in Rome as it would be in the 21st century, that's
easily enough done: move there. What's the point of recreating
modernity in the modern world? What precisely appeals to me about Rome
is what separates it from modernity.

We live in a world which has turned its back on the Di Immortales for
more than 1700 years. I am not surprised that you are comfortable with
that because you adhere to the views of those who sought to extirpate
the Religio Romana in the name of Christendom. I, on the other hand,
regard that turning from the Gods as the greatest tragedy of human
history. Disagreeing on so fundamental an issue, is it any surprise
that I am loathe to even consider placing the recovery of the mos
maiorum at your command? You have no personal commitment to that which
is most sacred to me. I would be a fool to regard your facile
suggestion that we have compromised so much with the modern world that
one more compromise wouldn't matter with anything but the most profound
suspicion. One of what you see as little compromises with modernity was
the death of my religion at the hands of Christian emperors. I am
certain that many who converted when the imperial throne made the
rewards of doing so great enough and the penalties of not sufficiently
dire thought that embracing the new faith was just a little compromise
(Ramsey MacMullen has made the point more eloquently than I can in
several of his works).

I have no confidence that Nova Roma is anything but a hobby for you; for
me it is the material substrate required for the reconstruction of the
Religio Romana. The degree to which each of us is invested in the mos
maiorum could not be more different. I do not raise this issue to
attack you or your religion, but rather to make plain that there are
differences in this debate so profound that compromise is simply not
possible. What you would call another little compromise could well be
to me a betrayal of what is most fundamental about what is most sacred
to me. People talk about this as if this were a game. Consider for a
moment how things would be if our roles were reversed. Would you think
it a little compromise if you were told "don't cross yourself at grace,
modern people don't do it." Or "you have to accept papal infallibility,
after all millions of modern Christians do." Or "all that talking about
eating flesh and drinking blood, that sounds like cannibalism to modern
people and offends them, you really have to drop that." When you go
tinkering with mos maiorum with fumbling modern fingers, you do exactly
that to my religion. You simply do not share the world-view of the
Religio Romana. It isn't your fault; the entire modern world militates
against it in one form or another. Call me prejudiced, call me
antiquated, call me what you will. I have at least the honesty to cut
to the core of the problem: I do not trust non-practitioners of the
Religio Romana to make decisions about what is vital and what is not in
the mos maiorum because the price of making an error is hugely less for
those who are not practitioners.

Non-practitioners can respect the Di Immortales from dawn to dusk, but
it is not the same thing as obeying them. When you depart from the mos
maiorum to fit your modern preferences, you are making your hobby more
comfortable for yourself. When I agree to depart the mos maiorum, I
risk severing the pax Deorum. I do not expect you to really understand
that, because at the end of the day, under the most charitable
construal, the Di Immortales to you are just the quaint superstition of
some odd people you have to tolerate to be a citizen of Nova Roma. Let
me try one more stab at making myself clear. I am certain you are
familiar with the Pauline passage which suggests that the entirety of
the Christian faith is the Risen Christ. The mos maiorum stands in
respect to the Religio Romana in the same relation as the Risen Christ
does to Christianity in that passage: it is what gives meaning and
coherence to all thatt we do as practitioners of the Religio Romana. I
am happy to recognise your Christ as Divus, a new Aesculapius, a
spiritual Hercules. But until you willingly cast incense on the fire to
the Genius of Roma and Iuppiter Optimus Maximus your stake in the mos
maiorum is nothing like mine and I have no reason to trust your judgment
about what is essential in it and what is dross.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24884 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Salve Sulla

I hope your recovery is going well! The source for all of these posts is Bill Thayer's website and it says anything can be used for non commercial purposes which is what Lucius Arminius is doing. Most of it is from Smith and the copyright has long since expired as has Smith.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Ave Lucius Arminius,

I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's consent to post this information here? Because I got TONS of dissertations that I would LOVE to post on the ML but have been told by college professors that I must get the express consent of the author or publisher's before I could post their work.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

SENATUS

SENATUS The senate or council of elders (seniores: comp. the Greek
gerousia) ranked with the kingship, and the assembly of burgesses
among the oldest of Roman institutions, and, like the two latter,
existed also among the kindred communities of Latium (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 836, note 2). Its creation is ascribed by tradition to
Romulus (Liv. i. 8). The members of the senate were senatores. The
collective appellation patres (= chiefs rather than fathers )
belonged of right to the purely patrician senate of the earliest
days, but was transferred to the mixed patricio-plebeian body of
later times (Cicero, Sallust, and Livy, passim), and used as
equivalent to senatus. Similarly the two functions inherited by the
mixed senate from its patrician predecessor, the appointment [p. 621]
of the interrex, and the ratification of votes given by the assembly,
are always spoken of as acts of the patres, though in fact performed
by the senate as a whole. [For this and for Mommsen's rival theory,
that patres in these cases always meant only the patrician members of
the senate, see below.] The fact that the patrician patres had once
formed the whole senate, and that plebeians were not admitted until a
later time, was possibly commemorated by the official term patres
conscripti; the conscripti denoting originally the plebeian members
called up by the magistrate (Festus, p. 254; Liv. ii. 1; Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 839; Madvig, Verfass. i. 125. Willems, Le Sénat, i. 37
sqq., maintains on the contrary that the term means simply assembled
fathers. For Mommsen's view of the inferior position of the plebeian
conscripti, see below).

I. Number of the Senate. Roman tradition represents the senate as
consisting originally of 100 members (Liv. i. 8), and as having been
gradually enlarged to 300, though of the steps by which this increase
was effected it gives no consistent account. That 300 remained the
normal number down to the time of Sulla is generally agreed. From 81
B.C. to the dictatorship of Caesar, the nominal maximum was 600.
Under Caesar the numbers rose to 900 (Dio Cass. xliii. 47); under the
triumvirs to over 1000 (Suet. Aug. 35, erant enim super mille: cf.
Mon. Ancyr. 5, 6). Augustus reduced them once more to 600 (Suet. l.
c.; Dio Cass. liv. 13); but there is no proof that either by himself
or his successors was this limit strictly observed. [The advice given
by Maecenas to Augustus not to be particular as to the number of
senators (mêden peri tou plêthous autôn akribologoumenos, Dio Cass.
lii. 19) may be taken, with Mommsen, to represent the practice of
Dio's own time. See Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 850, note 3.]

II. Admission and expulsion of Senators.--It was a distinctive
peculiarity of the Roman senate, that admission to its ranks was
always given, not by popular election or by cooptation, but by the
act of the magistrate, who has for the time being the authority
legere in senatuzm; and though, as will be shown, his freedom of
choice was under the later Republic so restricted by law as to reduce
the lectio senatus to little more than the formal enrolment of
persons with a legal claim to be enrolled, yet his action continued
to be indispensable (Val. Max. ii. 3, 1), and under the Empire
regained much of its original liberty. The two principles that the
senate was only a council of advice for the magistrate, and that the
magistrate selected his councillors, though modified in practice by
the anxiety of the senate to assert its independence, were never
formally abandoned, and were successfully re-asserted by the Caesars.
Prof. Mommsen indeed has a theory that in pre-historic times the case
was otherwise, and that the original senate, as consisting of the
assembled heads (patres) of the patrician gentes, was independent as
to its composition of the authority of the magistrate (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 844, 854). That the early senate was composed
exclusively of patricians may be safely assumed. It is, moreover,
probable that from this original and close connexion with the gentes
were derived the claims which the patrician senate bequeathed to its
patricio-plebeian successor to be the special guardians of the
auspicia, and of the ancient order of things bound up with them. But
of a strictly representative gentile council there is, as Mommsen
himself confesses, no evidence. The senate as first known to us
appears as a council composed of patricians, but of patricians
selected by the chief magistrate [Liv. i. 8, Romulus centum creat
senatores. Willems' theory (Le Sénat, i. 26) that the senate was
originally a réunion de tous les patres familiarum seniores des
familles patriciennes, and that subsequently le choix royal succéda
au droit d'hérédité, is an equally unfounded and a less plausible
conjecture].

Starting from the earliest system known to us, that under which the
senators were chosen by the magistrate, we have to consider, (1) to
what magistrates this right of choice was successively granted; (2)
by what conditions, legal or customary, the choice was limited; and
(3) the mode in which the lectio senatus was carried out.

(1.) The prerogative of choosing senators belonged at first to the
king. From the king it passed to the consuls, and was during a brief
period granted to their temporary substitutes, the tribuni militum
consulari potestate (Festus, p. 246, ut reges sibi legebant,
sublegebantque quos in consilio publico haberent, ita post exactos
eos consules quoque et tribuni militum consulari potestate
conjunctissimos sibi quosque patriciorum et deinde plebeiorum
legebant ). The date at which it was transferred to the censors is
uncertain. That the change was not made before 387 A.U.C. = 367 B.C.,
the last year in which consular tribunes were appointed, is implied
in the passage quoted above from Festus; and it was not therefore
coeval with the institution of the censorship itself (443 B.C.).
According to the same passage, it was effected by a Lex Ovinia
tribunicia: donec Ovinia tribunicia intercessit qua sanctum est ut
censores ex omni ordine optimum quemque curiatim (sic) in senatum
legerent; and may be assumed to have been, as such, made in the
interest of the plebs. We may consequently place it after the passing
of the Lex Publilia (339 B.C.), which enacted that one censor must be
a plebeian (Liv. viii. 12), since a tribune of the plebs at that
period would not have been likely to entrust the choice of senators
to patrician magistrates. The first recorded lectio senatus by
censors is the famous one in the censorship of Appius Claudius Caecus
(312 B.C.; Liv. ix. 29), so that the Lex Ovinia and the transference
of the lectio senatus to the censors may be assigned to some date
between 339 B.C. and 312 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 395; Willems, i.
155). With the censors the duty remained down to the close of the
Republic, though on two occasions it was entrusted, as an exceptional
measure, to a dictator. In 216 B.C., after the battle of Cannae, M.
Fabius Buteo was created dictator for this purpose (Liv. xxiii. 22,
qui senatum legeret ); and Sulla exercised the prerogative as
dictator in 81 B.C. (Appian, B.C. i. 100). Both Julius Caesar and the
triumvirs selected senators in virtue of the extraordinary powers
vested in them. Augustus, true to his general policy, made a partial
return to the old practice. Although the censorship proper ceased to
exist, and the creation of senators devolved upon the princeps, the
old [p. 622] connexion between this act and the censorial authority
was not entirely lost sight of. Of the three regular lectiones
senatus held by Augustus (Mon. Ancyr. ii. 1, senatum ter legi ), the
first certainly and the two others probably coincided with the three
census of Roman citizens taken by him in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and 14 A.D.
Moreover, though under Augustus and his successors both the calling
up into the senate of persons legally qualified by the tenure of the
quaestorship, and the removal from the list of the names of such
senators as had died or proved themselves unworthy, took place
annually and quite independently of any censorial authority, the
direct admission (adlectio) of men freely selected by Caesar was a
power only occasionally exercised in the first century and always in
virtue of the censorial authority, e. g. by Claudius, Vespasian, and
Titus (C. I. L. v. 3117; Orelli, 3659; Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 877,
iii. 857). Domitian, as censor for life, first exercised it
continuously. From his time onwards the right was possessed and used
by all emperors at their discretion, and without any reference to
censorial authority as a power inherent in the imperial prerogative
(Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 857).

(2.) The old constitution left the king or consul free to choose as
senators the men he thought best fitted for the post. Full
citizenship, free birth (ingenuitas), and good character were no
doubt always indispensable for a seat in the senate as for a
magistracy; but although custom may have limited the choice of the
king to patricians, there is no proof that he was prohibited by law
from admitting plebeians; and the admission of the latter is
represented in tradition as the free act of the king or consul, not
as the consequence of special legislation. [Liv. ii. 1. Mommsen's
theory, that originally a seat in the senate was an exclusively
patrician privilege (Staatsr. iii. 870), must stand or fall with his
hypothesis mentioned above, of a time when the senate was a
representative council of the gentes. As he confesses himself, no
traces are discoverable of any formal representation in the senate of
the gentes or curiae.] The classical passage in Festus describes the
kings and consuls as choosing freely: conjunctissimos sibi
quosque . . . legebant; so that to be passed over inflicted no
disgrace, praeteriti senatores in opprobrio non erant (Id. ib.). Even
by the Lex Ovinia the censors were directed to choose ex omni ordine
optimum quemque; and Cicero declares (pro Sest. 65, 137) that the
original intention of the constitution was, that the senate should be
open omnium civium industriae ac virtuti. But this early freedom of
choice was gradually restricted. It is probable that the consuls at
the end of their year of office had always a claim to be enrolled as
senators, and we may assume that this privilege was conceded from the
first to praetores. When, owing to the transference of the lectio
senatus to the censors, the revision of the senatorial list took
place not annually but quinquennially, the ex-magistrates who had a
claim to be enrolled were permitted, after the end of their year of
office and while waiting for the next quinquennial lectio, to enter
the senate-house, and though not yet senators to give their
sententiae with the rest. Hence the distinction drawn between
senatores and those quibus in senatu sententiam dicere licet. (Liv.
xxiii. 32; Fest. p. 339; Varro, ap. Gell. iii. 18, qui nondum a
censoribus in senatum lecti, senatores non erant, sed quia honoribus
populi usi erant, in senatum veniebant, et sententiae jus habebant. )
The number of magistracies carrying this privilege increased as time
went on. By 216 B.C. it had evidently been extended to the curule
aedileship, since Livy, in describing the lectio of that exceptional
year, plainly includes the curule aedileship among the offices which
entitled their holders to a seat in the senate (Liv. xxii. 49, unde
in senatum legi deberent, xxiii. 23; and Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 860,
note 3). On the other hand, the minor magistracies, the plebeian
aedileship, tribunate, and quaestorship gave no such right as yet;
although, as we might expect, former holders of these offices were
selected next to ex-curule magistrates, and before such private
citizens as had distinguished themselves in war: primum in
demortuorum locum legit, qui post L. Aemilium, C. Flaminium censores
curulem magistratum cepissent, necdum in senatum lecti essent . . .
tum legit qui aediles, tribuni plebis, quaestoresve fuerant; tum ex
iis qui magistratus non cepissent, qui spolia ex hoste fixa domi
haberent aut civicam coronam accepissent (Liv. xxiii. 23). By Sulla's
time, if not before, the customary preference hitherto given to ex-
holders of the plebeian aedileship and tribuneship had been exchanged
for a legal claim both to the provisional seat and jus sententiae in
the senate, pending the next censorial lectio, and to formal
enrolment as senators when the time for the lectio arrived. [These
privileges were apparently given to the tribunes by the plebiscitum
Atinium (Gell. xiv. 8, 2, senatores non essent ante Atinium
plebiscitum ), the date of which must fall, according to Mommsen,
between 123 B.C. and 102 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 862, note 2).
When the plebeian aediles obtained them is uncertain. Mommsen infers,
from their inclusion in the Lex Acilia among those quei in senatu
sient, that they had done so before 122 B.C. (ib. 861, note 2).]
Finally, the same rights were attached to the quaestorship by Sulla
(Tac. Ann. xi. 22, viginti quaestores creati supplendo senatui ). But
these rights had long lost all value for the holders of the higher
offices; since, owing to the gradual establishment of a fixed order
of succession to these posts, a man was presumably already a senator
by the time that he reached even the lowest curule magistracy. After
Sulla, they were of importance only for the quaestorship, which was
then legally established as the first step in the ladder of
promotion. As a rule even the tribunate was taken after the
quaestorship, and its holders were consequently already senators. The
effect of these changes was practically to destroy the magistrate's
freedom of choice. He still created senators, but as a rule the
number of ex-quaestors awaiting his call, and with a legal claim to
be called, must have been sufficient to fill the vacancies, and have
left no room for others. Of senators admitted by free selection of
the magistrate, there is no trace after 70 B.C., until we reach the
dictatorship of Caesar. The votes of the people in Comitia in fact
gave admission to the senate. (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153, [p. 623]
judicio populi Romani in amplissimum locum pervenire. ) But the call
of the magistrate was still indispensable; and with the Empire it
became once more a reality. The quaestorship still retained its right
to give a seat; and it is true that the transference of the elections
for the quaestorship to the senate by Tiberius gave that body in
appearance a complete control over its own composition, and
substituted cooptation both for the free choice of the magistrate and
for the votes of the people. But it was only in appearance; for,
apart from the influence which his control of the quaestorian
elections gave him, the emperor possessed and exercised the old right
of direct admission, now known as adlectio, possibly to distinguish
it from the old periodic lectiones of republican times (Mommsen,
Staatsr. ii. 877, note). This right, used occasionally (see above) by
the earlier emperors, was from the reign of Nerva onwards constantly
exercised. The person so admitted was assigned a definite place on
the roll, usually inter tribunicios, occasionally inter praetorios,
and in the 3rd century even inter consulares; this titular rank
counting as equivalent to the actual tenure of the office itself. The
increasing frequency of these adlectiones indicates the use of the
method as a means of strengthening the emperor's hold over the
senate, and of promoting his friends and protégés (Mommsen, Staatsr.
ii. 877 sqq.; Vita Pert. 6, cum Commodus adlectionibus innumeris
praetorios miscuisset; Vita Marci, 10, multos ex amicis adlegit ).

No qualification of age or property was originally fixed by law for a
seat in the senate; but from the time when election to the
quaestorship became the normal mode of entry into the senate, the
legal age for this office became practically that for the senate
also. Under the later Republic it was consequently thirty; from the
time of Augustus onwards, twenty-five (Dio Cass. lii. 20; QUAESTOR).
A property qualification was first introduced by Augustus, who fixed
it at one million sesterces (Dio Cass. liv. 17; Suet. Aug. 41; Tac.
Ann. i. 75, ii. 37). Under Trajan, all candidates for office, and
therefore for a seat in the senate, were compelled to invest a third
of their property in Italian land (Plin. Epp. vi. 19). This
proportion was reduced to a fourth by M. Aurelius (Vit. 11).

It should lastly be mentioned that in the early days of the Empire
the Roman franchise was given to Gauls (Tac. Ann. xi. 23), and
possibly to other provincials, without the right of standing for
office in Rome (jus honorum; and to such men, therefore, unless
directly admitted by the emperor, the senate-house was closed. But of
this special disability no trace is found after the reign of Claudius.

With the right of creating senators was closely connected that of
removing them (loco movere), or omitting them from the revised list
(praeterire). Of the mode in which it was exercised by the kings and
consuls we know nothing beyond the statement in Festus, that,
inasmuch as the magistrate then drew up the list as he chose, no
stigma attached to those whose names were left out (Festus, p. 246:
see above). It is easy to understand that the senate would resent
being so completely at the magistrate's mercy; and the Lex Ovinia,
carried as it was when the senate was slowly establishing its
ascendancy (339-312 B.C.), seems to have given greater security to
the senator's tenure of his seat. By transferring the revision of the
list to the censors, it substituted a quinquennial for an annual
revision; and though the removal or omission of a name henceforward
inflicted disgrace, this was probably due in part to the fact that
the censors, possibly under a clause of the law, were obliged not
only to be agreed in doing so (App. i. 28; Liv. xl. 51; Cic. pro
Cluent. 43, 122), but to state in writing their reasons for
inflicting the penalty (Ascon. in tog. Cand. p. 84; Liv. xxxix. 42,
adscriberent notas ). The power was no doubt abused more than once
for party or personal purposes, but in the main the evidence points
to the conclusion that the arrangement gave a senator fixity of
tenure, unless he were guilty of some act, or had incurred some
public disgrace, which by law or custom disqualified him for sitting
in the senate (e. g. deprivation of his office for misconduct, loss
of civic rights, conviction in certain cases in a court of justice,
gross immorality, extravagance, &c.). After 70 B.C., when the censors
expelled a number of the unworthy members placed on the list possibly
by Sulla, the power of expulsion or omission remained in abeyance
(Sull., Cat. 23, gives an instance, belonging to 70 B.C.), though
Cicero in the Laws advocates its revival ( probrum in senatu ne
relinquunto, de Legg. iii. 3, 7). Under the Empire it came again into
exercise. The thorough purgings of the overgrown senate by Augustus
in 29-28 B.C., and again in 18 B.C., were no doubt exceptional (Suet.
Aug. 35; Dio Cass. lii. 42, liv. 12), as was that carried out by
Vespasian after the civil wars of 69 A.D. (Suet. Vesp. 9, summotis
indignissimis ). But alike at the periodic lectiones held by
Claudius, Vespasian, and Titus as censors, and at the yearly revision
of the senatorial list, not only were the names removed of those who
had vacated their seats by death, by loss of the necessary property
qualification (unless the loss, as frequently happened, was made good
by the emperor: Tac. Ann. i. 75, ii. 37, xiii. 34; Suet. Nero, 10),
or by condemnation in a court of law; but those were also expelled
who for one. reason or another were held by the emperor to be
unworthy (Ann. ii. 48, prodigos et ob flagitia egentes; iv. 42, quod
in acta d. Augusti non juraverat; xi. 25, famosos; Suet. Domit. 8,
quod gesticulandi saltandique studio tenleretur: the alternative of
voluntary, withdrawal was sometimes given, Ann. ii. 48). This power
of removal, exercised as it was with increasing freedom and even
arbitrariness as time went on, combined with the more frequent use of
the right of adlectio completely to destroy that practical
independence of magisterial control which the republican senate had
gradually won for itself. The senate under the Principate became
again what it must have been in early days--a body of councillors,
largely selected by the chief magistrate at his discretion, and
retaining their seats at his good pleasure.

(3.) The mode in which the lectio or revision of the list was carried
out has next to be described. Our knowledge of this commences with
the period when the revision of the senate was in the hands of the
censors, i. e. at the earliest after 339 B.C. Although the lectio
senatus was not apparently an integral part of the census, like [p.
624] the recognitio equitnm (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 396, and so
Willems), it seems to have immediately preceded it (Liv. xxiv. 18;
xxvii. 11, &c.). It was conducted usually by both censors jointly
(Liv. xxxii. 7, xl. 50; Willems, i. 241), though on one occasion at
least it was decided by lot which of the two should undertake the
work (Liv. xxvii. 11, sors legendi ). The first point, down to 81
B.C., was to select the senator whose name should stand at the head
of the list as princeps senatus and enjoy the privilege of giving his
sententia first. This honour belonged by ancient custom to the oldest
patrician censorius (Liv. l. c.; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 970). After
209 B.C. any patrician censorius might be chosen irrespective of
seniority. From the time of Sulla onwards, it is not clear that any
princeps senatus in the old sense was appointed: the list in the
Ciceronian age was possibly headed by the senior consular, and at any
rate the post, if it survived at all, must have been deprived of most
of its importance by the change made in the order of taking the
sententiae, which took away from the princeps the privilege of being
asked first (Varro, ap. Gell. xiv. 7; Willems, i. 114, maintains not
only that principes senatus existed after Sulla, but that they were
no longer necessarily patricians. Indeed, the three whose names he
gives--Q. Lutatius Catulus, P. Servilius Vatia, and Cicero--were all
plebeians. But his arguments are not conclusive). Under the Empire,
the emperors, following the example of Augustus (Mon. Anc. Gk. 4, 2,
prôton axiômatos topon tês sunklêtou), placed their own names at the
head of the list, though only in the case of Pertinax (Dio Cass.
lxxiii. 4) was the old title princeps senatus revived. The princeps
senatus chosen, the old list of the senate was gone through, the
names of deceased members or of those legally disqualified struck
out, those who had risen to higher office in the interval placed in
their proper position; and finally, any whom the censors judged
unfit, struck off the roll. the lectio of 216 B.C. there were no such
erasions, but this was exceptional (Liv. xxiii. 23).] The vacancies
were then filled up according to the order described above, though
here again the censors might pass over one or more of the legally
qualified claimants. In the completed list the senators were arranged
according to their official rank, from the dictatorii and censorii
down to the quaestorii; those, if there were any, who had held no
office, being no doubt placed last. Down to the time of Sulla, the
patricians in each magisterial category took precedence of the
plebeians; in the post-Sullan period, the members of each category
were arranged simply by official seniority (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii.
968; Willems, i. 259). Under the Empire a senator might obtain
precedence by the grant of the jus trium liberorum, and earlier still
by the successful prosecution in a public court of a senator higher
in rank than himself, whose place he took (Mommsen, l. c. 971; Dio
Cass. xxxvi. 40). Those persons directly admitted (adlecti) by the
emperor, among the praetorii or tribunicii, were properly placed
below the genuine ex-praetors or ex-tribunes (Vit. Pertin. 6). The
list when made up was in Republican times read aloud from the rostra
(Liv. xxiii. 23); under the Empire it was regularly published (Dio
Cass. lv. 3). It held good until the next revision, i. e. under the
Republic, until the next censors came into office. Under the Empire
the revision was annual (Dio Cass. l. c.). The official name for the
list, album senatorium, first occurs in Tacitus (Ann. iv. 42).

III. Composition and Character of the Senate.--The first important
change in the composition of the senate must have been effected by
the admission of plebeians--a measure ascribed by tradition to
Brutus, and certainly anterior to their admission to the consulship.
With the opening of the magistracies to plebeians, and the additions
made to the list of magistracies giving a legal claim to a seat, the
plebeian element in the senate grew in strength; and at the close of
the Punic wars largely outnumbered the patrician. (See the
calculations made by Willems, i. pp. 285 sqq.) The question then
arises, how far any distinction was maintained as regards rights and
privileges between these two elements? That the interrex was
necessarily, and the princeps senatus customarily, a patrician, is
certain (see above and art. INTERREX), as also that on the roll
patrician senators took precedence of plebeian senators of equal
official rank. But on two points there is a division of opinion: (1)
Were the functions of appointing the interrex (prodere interregem)
and of ratifying votes of the assembly (patrum auctoritas) reserved
exclusively for patrician senators? (2) Were plebeian senators at any
time without the right sententiam dicere? The first question is
answered in the affirmative by Mommsen (Röm. Forschungen, i. 218;
Staatsr. iii. 871) and Madvig (Verfass. i. 233, 496); in the negative
by Willems (ii. 1 and 33. See also INTERREX). The difficulty. in the
way of a decision is increased by the ambiguous sense in which the
term patres is used by ancient writers, and by the fact that while
the appointment of interreges had become extremely rare during the
period to which our best authorities (Cicero, Livy) belong, the
patrum auctoritas had long before that time been reduced to a
meaningless form (by the Lex Publilia, 339 B.C.). The most probable
view on the whole seems to be that, while both acts belonged
originally to the senate as a purely patrician body, they were in
later times performed by the patricio-plebeian senate as a whole.
[Cf. the extension of the term patres to cover the whole senate, and
the retention of the phrase patricii magistratus for the curule
offices long after these had been opened to plebeians (Cic. ad Brut.
i. 5). It is only in connexion with the three earliest interregna
under the Republic that Livy speaks of patricii (iii. 40, iv. 7, iv.
43: 421 B.C.). On later occasions he speaks always of patres, as does
Cicero throughout The patrum auctoritas is never expressly connected
with the patricii. For a full discussion, see Willems, l. c., and
INTERREX] The second question admits of a more confident answer. It
is agreed on all hands that in post-Sullan times no distinction is
traceable between patricians and plebeians as regards the right
sententiam dicere, and that the term pedarii had no legal value, but
merely denoted the lower ranks of senators (i. e. in fact the non-
curules), whose names, from want of time, were rarely reached in
taking the sententiae, and who were therefore, as a rule, obliged
pedibus ire in sententiam, [p. 625] i.e. to cross to one side or the
other of the senate-house. [Gell. iii. 18, qui in alienam sententiam
pedibus irent. The explanation of the term quoted in the same passage
from Gavius Bassus (1st century A.D.), Senatores qui magistratum
curulem nondum cepissent pedibus itavisse in curiam, though in fact
non-curules and pedarii coincide, is a bad guess, which, strangely
enough, Willems accepts (op. cit. i. 137). The confusion which
follows between the pedarii and the ex-curule magistrates nondum a
censoribus lecti is probably due to Gellius himself. The latter class
were not senators, but had the jus sententiae dicendae; the pedarii
were senators, but in practice were unable sententiam dicere. The
confusion is repeated in Lewis and Shortt's Latin Dict. The sense of
inferiority associated with the pedarii in the senate sufficiently
explains the equites pedarii of Varro (=common or inferior equites).]

But Mommsen, while agreeing that in the Ciceronian age pedarius was
merely a conventional epithet describing the actual but not the legal
position of the lower senators, holds that in earlier times the term
had a statutable meaning, and denoted plebeian senators directly
admitted by consuls or censors, as distinct from those qualified by
office --a class which ceased to exist after 81 B.C. These plebeian
senators were, he thinks, legally incapable of delivering sententiae,
and only allowed to vote (pedibus ire). The objections to this theory
are: (1) That no such distinction can be drawn between the right
sententiam dicere and the right to vote. For the Roman senator, the
sententia and the vote were the same thing, though the sententia
might be given in different ways, of which the pedibus ire was one
[see below under Procedure]. (2) That though there were certainly at
one time men in the senate with the jus sententiae who were not
senators, there is no evidence of the existence at any time of
senators without this right. (3) There is no proof that there was
ever a legally distinct class of pedarii, or that the term had ever
any other meaning than that which it bore in the Ciceronian age.

The admission of plebeians has been assigned to the early days of the
Republic; the period from the Lex Ovinia to the dictatorship of Sulla
witnessed another change which stood in close connexion with the
growing ascendancy of the senate in the political system. The class
of senators freely chosen by the magistrate as distinct from those
whom election to office had given a legal claim on his call,
gradually disappeared (Cic. de Legg. iii. 1. 2, neminem in summum
locum nisi per populum venire ), and the senate came to be composed
entirely of actual and ex-officials, to the exclusion of lay
interests and opinions--an exclusiveness intensified by the extent to
which from 200 B.C. onwards the official class was recruited from a
single section of Roman society, that of the nobiles. In Cicero's day
the only working classification of senators was classification by
official rank.

Further changes followed under the Empire. The class of those who,
while awaiting the next lectio, were permitted to sit in the senate
and give sententiae (see above), must have ceased to exist, when the
yearly revision enabled the emperor to call them up immediately on
the expiry of their year of office. On the other hand, though the
official classification continued, and even those directly adlecti by
Caesar were placed in one official category or another, and though
the majority of senators as a rule entered by the old official door,
the quaestorship, the increasing number of the adlecti unquestionably
served not only to strengthen the emperor's control over the senate,
but to widen the area from which its members were drawn. The effect
of Vespasian's admission of numerous Italians and provincials is
specially noticed by Tacitus (Ann. iii. 55, novi homines e municipiis
et coloniis atque etiam provinciis--domesticam parsimoniam
intulerunt. Senators from the eastern provinces are very rare before
the 2nd century). But while in this way the senate became in its
composition more representative of the whole Empire, a narrowing
effect was exercised by the tendency to confine the senatorial
dignity to a particular class, by making it hereditary. The way for
this latter change was prepared in the last century of the Republic.
In the time of Cicero, the male members of the great families passed
into the senate through the quaestorship, almost as a matter of
course. The son of a senator was expected and as a rule did thus
qualify himself for senatorial rank; and Cicero contrasts the
senatorial and official career proper to young nobles, with the
quieter and less ambitious course marked out by custom for members of
the equestrian order (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153). But as yet the son
of a senator had no legal claim to be himself a senator, nor did he
as such enjoy any legal distinctions or privileges. Even the phrase
ordo senatorius is usually limited in meaning to the actual senate
(Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 459). Julius, it is true, extended the
restriction on foreign travel from senators to their sons (Suet. Jul.
42); but from Augustus dates the first attempt to make the senatorial
dignity formally hereditary, and to give the ordo senatorius, as
distinct from the senate, a legal existence. According to his
regulations, the sons of senators were authorised to assume the broad
stripe (latus clavus) on the assumption of the toga virilis, and to
attend meetings of the senate (a revival of an ancient custom, Gell.
i. 23). They entered the army as tribuni militum or praefecti alarum,
and were distinguished from other young officers as laticlavii (Suet.
Aug. 38, liberis senatorum, quo celerius reipublicae assuescerent,
protinus a virili toga, latum clavum induere et curiae interesse
permisit, militiamque auspicantibus non tribunatum modo legionum, sed
et praefecturas alarum dedit . . . binos plerumque laticlavios
praeposuit singulis alis. The ordinary trib. mil. were angusticlavii,
Suet. Otho, 10). From military service they passed on to the
quaestorship and a seat in the senate. That under the earlier
emperors this career was morally incumbent both on senators' sons and
on other young men, to whom the emperor had granted the latus clavus,
seems certain (they are described as honores petituri: Plin. Ep.
viii. 14; Dio Cass. lix. 10, epi têi tês boulês elpidi), but there is
no proof that in the 1st century A.D. it was legally necessary. [We
hear of several cases in which a man either declines to assume the
latus clavus, or discards [p. 626] it after a time. Suet. Vesp. 2,
latum clavum din aversatus (Vespasian); Tac. Ann. xvi. 17, Mela
petitione honorum abstinuerat; Hist. ii. 86, prima juventa senatorium
ordinem exuerat; Ovid, Trist. iv. 10, 35. Claudius, however, as
censor took a strict view of the obligation (Suet. Claud. 24,
senatoriam dignitatem recusantibus equestrem quoque ademit. Augustus,
at the lectio, in B.C. 13, compelled qualified persons under 35
bouleusai (Dio Cass. liv. 26).] A further illustration of the same
policy is the enactment due to Augustus prohibiting both senators and
their sons from marriage with libertinae (Lex Papia Poppaea, Dig. 23,
2, 23). The development of the policy by the emperors of the 2nd
century cannot be traced in detail. At the close of that century,
however, we find the two orders, senatorial and equestrian, clearly
and sharply distinguished. Each has its own privileges. The careers
appropriate to the members of each order are different, and the
passage from one to the other difficult and rarely made. [EQUITES;
PRINCIPATUS; PROCURATOR.] Suetonius already contrasts senatoria et
equestria officia, Galb. 15; cf. Vita Commodi, 4, per laticlavi
honorem a praefecturae (sc. praetorio, an equestrian office)
administratione summovit. By the lawyers of the early part of the 3rd
century senatorial rank is treated as strictly hereditary. Not only
the sons, but the grandsons of senators are born into the senatorial
order, and cannot escape either the honours or the burdens attached
to the dignitas senatoria. Neither posthumous birth, nor adoption
into a family of lower rank, affects their position (Dig. 7, 35, 9,
7). As Mommsen has well said (Staatsr. iii. 467), the senatorial
order took the place as a hereditary nobility of the nobiles of the
later Republic, as they had in their turn superseded the patriciate.
[For the distinctive privileges and liabilities of the senatorial
order as thus constituted, see the next section;--for its general
position, cf. Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 865, iii. 466; Madvig, Verf. i.
123 sqq.; Friedländer, Sittengesch. i. 197 sqq.]

IV. Insignia, Privileges, &c.--In Republican times the senator bore
no distinctive title, for senator Romanus was never like eques
Romanus in official use. The title of courtesy clarissimus, though
not unfrequently applied to senators at an early date, was first
formally assigned to them in the 2nd century A.D. (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 565), and then or soon afterwards extended not only to their
sons, but to their wives and daughters. The outward insignia of the
senator were always the broad purple stripe on the tunic (latus
clavus) and the red sandals (calcei) with the crescent-shaped buckle
(luna), and the leathern thongs wound round the leg (lora). The
former of these insignia was possibly not older than the Gracchan
period (sero, Plin. H. N. xxxiii. § 29); the latter were originally
the distinctive mark of the patrician. Under the Empire the latus
clavus was assumed by a senator's son on reaching manhood; while the
red sandals were worn even in childhood (Stat. Silv. v. 2, 28).
Separate seats in the theatre were first assigned to senators in 194
B.C. (Liv. xxxiv. 44), and at the shows in the circus by Claudius
(Suet. Claud. 21). A variety of fresh distinctions were conceded as
the senatorial order under the Empire increasingly assumed the
character of a hereditary peerage, e. g. the right of entrée to the
imperial presence (Dio Cass. lvii. 11), and of banquets at the public
cost (Suet. Aug. 35), the use of covered carriages by their wives
(Dio Cass. lvii. 15), of silver plating upon their own vehicles (Vit.
Sev. Alex. 43), and of running footmen (cursores, Vit. Aurel. 49). In
the 3rd century A.D., and probably earlier still, they were exempt
from all burdens, though still eligible for honores in their own
municipia (Dig. 50, 1, 23, municeps esse desinit senatoriam adeptus
dignitatem, quantum ad munera: quantum vero ad honorem, retinere
creditur originem; cf. the omission in inscriptions of senators of
their place of domicile; see Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 2, 887, note 1).
Though subject, like other citizens, to the ordinary law, they were
outside the jurisdiction of municipal authorities. From Hadrian dated
the custom for the emperor to summon only senatorial assessors to sit
with him in judgment on a senator (Vit. Hadr. 8), a practice revived
by Severus Alexander (Vit. 21, ne quis non senator de Romano senatore
judicaret ). But the increased outward dignity of their position
under the Empire brought with it not only increased risk under the
worse emperors, but increased liabilities and restrictions. Their
exclusion from trade and from taking state contracts, as also their
liability and that of their sons to prosecution under the leges de
repetundis, date from republican times (Lex Claudia, Liv. xxi. 63:
cf. Dig. 50, 5; Lex Acilia de pec. repet. 2; Bruns, Fontes jur. Rom.
54; Cic. pro Cluent. 55, 150). In addition, Severus Alexander forbade
them to lend money except at a low rate of interest (Vit. 26). The
prohibition issued in Tiberius' reign against intercourse with stage-
buffoons (Ann. i. 77) was, like that against marriage with
libertinae, intended to preserve the dignity of the order. But
Claudius's edict forbidding praetorian guardsmen to attend the
morning levees of senators (Suet. Claud. 25) was no doubt provoked by
the same jealousy of senatorial interference with the army, which
finally led to their exclusion from military commands and from the
camps by Gallienus (Victor. Caes. 33). The separate taxation of
senators did not exist as a system before Diocletian (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 2, 900 f.). The costly obligation of providing games
was a magisterial rather than a senatorial burden. [LUDI; PRAETOR;
QUAESTOR. For the privilege originally enjoyed by senators of voting
in the equitum centuriae, and for their duty of serving as judices in
the quaestiones perpetuae, see COMITIA; JUDEX; QUAESTIO.]

V. Procedure.--The right to hold a meeting of the senate (senatum
habere), to consult it (consulere, referre, relationem facere), and
to carry a decree (senatusconsultum facere) belonged in the
Ciceronian age to consuls, praetors, and tribunes of the plebs; but
if all were present in Rome together, they could only exercise it in
the above order of precedence. The right no doubt attached to the
consulship and praetorship from the moment of their establishment. It
was acquired by the tribunate at some period previous to the
plebiscitum Atinium (? before 133 B.C.). The right was also given to
the dictator, interrex, [p. 627] and praefectus urbi. [See the
classical passage, Gell. xiv. 7, 8, Primum ibi ponit (Varro) per quos
more majorum senatus haberi soleret, eosque nominat, dictatorem,
consules, praetores, tribunos plebi, interregem, praefectum
urbi . . . tribunis plebi senatus habendi jus erat quamquam senatores
non essent ante Atinium plebiscitum. ] Any one of these magistrates
could be prevented from exercising the right by the interference of a
colleague, or of a superior, or of a tribune. [INTERCESSIO;
TRIBUNUS.] In the earlier times, when the consuls were frequently
absent from Rome in the field, the duty of convening the senate
constantly developed upon the praetor urbanus (Liv. xxii. 7; xxvi.
21; xlii. 8, &c.). In the Ciceronian age, it is regularly performed
by the consuls (Cic. ad Fam. xii. 2. 8; CONSUL). Augustus in 23 B.C.
was specially empowered to hold a senate as often as he would, even
when not consul (Dio Cass. liv. 3), and the power was continued to
his successors (Lex de Imp. Vesp. 2, utique ei senatum habere . . .
liceat, ita uti licuit divo Augusto, &c. Tiberius before he was
formally invested with this power convened the senate tribuniciae
potestatis praescriptione sub Augusto acceptae, Tac. Ann. i. 7). But
even under the emperors it was usually the consuls who convened the
senate and presided at its meetings (Plin. Epp. ii. 11, princeps
praesidebat erat enim consul; cf. Id. Paneg. 76).

The magistrate who convened the senate determined also the place of
meeting, subject, however, to certain conditions. A lawful senate
could only be held in a templum, and, except in special cases, within
the pomerium (Gell. xiv. 7, in loco per augurem constituto, quod
templum appellaretur: see TEMPLUM). Among the ordinary meeting-places
of the senate in republican times were the Curia Hostilia and the
temples of Concord, of Castor, of Jupiter Stator, and of Tellus. The
senate could be convened outside the pomerium, but intra milia
passuum, if either embassies from states not in alliance with Rome or
a pro-magistrate [PROCONSUL; PROPRAETOR] were to take part in the
proceedings (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii., 930. As meeting-places outside
the pomerium, the temples of Apollo and of Bellona are mentioned:
Liv. xxxiv. 43; Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Plut. Sull. 30).

The senate could not be summoned to meet before sunrise or sit after
sunset (Gell. xiv. 7). But under the Republic there were no fixed
days for its meetings any more than for those of the Comitia.
Augustus first enacted that there should be two regular meetings held
in each month (Suet. Aug. 35, ne plus quam bis in mense legitimus
senatus ageretur Kal. et Idibus, Dio Cass. lv. 3). Nor is it clear
that in early times there were any days on which a senate could not
be lawfully held. But by a Lex Pupia, the date of which Mommsen fixes
at about 154 B.C., the magistrates were apparently forbidden to hold
a senate upon any day actually appointed for Comitia, or possibly
upon any of the days on which Comitia might legally be held (dies
comitiales, Cic. ad Fam. i. 4, senatus haberi ante Kal. Febr. per
legem Pupiam . . . non potest; Id. ad Q. Fr. ii. 2, consecuti sunt
dies comitiales per quos senatus haberi non potest: cf ad Fam. viii.
8; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 921-923).

The usual mode of summoning the senate (cogere senatum) was by a
proclamation issued by one or both the consuls, naming the date and
place of meeting, and occasionally stating the special business to be
considered (Liv. xxviii. 9, praemisso edicto ut triduo post senatus
ad aedem Bellonae adesset; Suet. Caes. 28, edicto praefatus se summa
de republica relaturlum; Cic. ad Fam. xi. 6, quam edixissent . . .
senatus adesset ). The procedure was the same if the magistrate
concerned was a praetor or tribune. The magistrate was empowered, if
necessary, to compel the attendance of senators by taking pledges for
their attendance, or by fining those who failed to appear (Gell. xiv,
7; Cic. de Legg. iii. 4, Phil. i. 12); but this power was, it would
seem, sparingly exercised under the later Republic, and the increased
numbers of the senate after 81 B.C., added to the fact that no quorum
was required by law, gave little occasion for its use. Under the
Empire it was otherwise. Augustus found it necessary not only to fix
a quorum (Dio Cass. lv. 3: see below), but to increase the penalties
for non-attendance (Dio Cass. liv. 18), and Claudius did the same
(Dio Cass. lx. 11: cf. Tac. Ann. xvi. 27, patres arguebat(Nero) quod
publica munia desererent ).

On the assembling of the senate, usually in the early morning, the
senators took their seats, as they chose, upon the benches
(subsellia) ranged in rows to the right and left of the curule chairs
of the presiding magistrates; the latter being so placed as to face
the door of the house. [Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 932, has shown that
under the Republic neither the ordinary senators nor, as Willems (ii.
173) maintains, the magistrates generally, had any special or fixed
seats.] Under the Empire the emperor's chair was placed between those
of the consuls (this seat was first assigned to Augustus in 19 B.C.:
Dio Cass. liv. 10); and separate seats were assigned to the
praetors., tribunes, and possibly to the other magistrates (Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 934). The proceedings opened with a sacrifice, followed
by the inspection of the victim's entrails (Gell. xiv. 7; Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 935).

The magistrate who summoned the senate also presided at its meetings,
and it is he who, subject to certain customary rules, determines what
business shall be laid before the house and in what order. It was his
duty, in the first place, to communicate to the senate any news of
importance, to read despatches received from officials abroad, and to
introduce provincial or foreign deputations (Caesar, B.C. i. 2; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 1. 2, 3; Liv. xliv. 20, 21). On his demand, or with his
permission, any individual senator might similarly read letters,
communicate information, or make a statement to the house. The same
privilege belonged to praetors and tribunes, as having the right to
consult the senate, even when not actually presiding.

The magistrate might follow up these preliminary communications by
referring one or more of the points raised to the senate for its
opinion, and the senate not unfrequently demanded by acclamation that
such a reference should be made. It rested, however, with the
magistrate to decide whether or not this further step should be taken
(Liv. xxx. 21, conclamatum ex omni parte curiae est, uti referret [p.
628] P. Aelius praetor; ib. xlii. 3, ex omnibus partibus postulabatur
ut consules earn rem ad senatum referrent; Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6;
Caes. B.C. i. 1, ut ex litteris ad senatum referretur, impetrari non
potuit ).

The formal consultation of the senate (relatio) was governed by a
variety of customary rules. After, usually, an explanation of the
business in question ( verba facere, Cic. ad Fam. viii. 8; Phil.
viii. 14, &c.), the magistrate asked the senate quid de ea re fieri
placet, without himself submitting a definite proposition (Sall. Cat.
30; Cic. Cat. i. 1. 0, iii. 13). Occasionally the magistrate
indicated his own view (Liv. xxxix. 39, sibi nisi quid aliud eis
videretur in animo esse . . . comitia habere. For instances of a
definite proposition, see Suet. Caes. 28, rettulit ad senatum ut ei
succederetur; Cic. Phil. i. 1, scriptum senatusconsultum quod fieri
vellet attulit; cf. Cic. Phil. x. 1. 7). It is significant of the
more dependent position of the senate in relation to the emperor that
the latter, when consulting the senate, usually made at the same time
a definite proposal (see below). The reference to the senate might
either be general ( infinite de republica, Gell. xiv. 7; cf. Liv.
xxvi. 10, de summa republica consultatum ) or special ( de singulis
rebus finite, Gell. xiv. 7; Cic. Phil. vii. 1, de Appia Via et de
Moneta ), and the senators might, in giving their sententiae, express
a wish for the separate reference of some particular question (Cic.
Phil. x. 2. 4, de M. Appuleio separatim censeo referendum, ad Fam.
viii. 8, ne quid conjunctim referatur ). Custom again prescribed in
general terms the order in which the business should be taken: de
rebus divinis priusquam humanis ad senatum referendum esse (Gell.
xiv. 7; cf. Liv. xxii. 9, ab diis orsus--tum de bello deque
republica ); but here again the practice at least of the later
Republic allowed a certain weight to the wishes of the senators
themselves, who might either directly demand urgency for a particular
question (Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6, flagitare senatus institit . . . ut
referret statim ), or indirectly force the magistrate's hand by
refusing to give opinions upon any matter until the desired point had
been submitted to them (Cic. ad Att. iii. 2. 4, senatum nihil
decernere, antequam de nobis actum esset; in Pison. 13, 29, quum
quacunque de re verbum facere coeperatis aut referre ad senatum,
cunctus ordo reclamabat, ostendebatque, nihil esse vos acturos, nisi
prius de me rettulissetis ). The right of reference (jus referendi,
consulendi senatum, cum patribus agendi) belonged, exclusively of
extraordinary magistrates, to consuls, tribunes of the plebs, and
praetors; the latter, however, do not appear to have exercised it
except in the absence of the consuls. As between consuls and
tribunes, the consul's business took precedence, though it would seem
from Cic. Phil. vii. 1, that if the questions were small ones, the
references of both consuls and tribunes might be put conjointly to
the house ( de Appia Via et de Moneta consul; de Lupercis tribunus
plebis refert ). To the emperors a special right of reference, as of
convening the senate, was granted by statute, in addition to that
which they possessed in virtue of the tribunicia potestas. This
right, granted to Augustus in 23 B.C. on his resignation of the
consulship (Dio Cass. liii. 32), and confirmed to his successors (Lex
Vespas. 2, Bruns, 128), invested him with the power of making the
first relatio (peri henos tinos, Dio Cass. op. cit.) at each meeting
of the senate, and was afterwards extended so as to enable him to
make four and even five relationes before the regular magistrates
took their turn ( jus quartae relationis, Vit. Pert. 5; quintae
relationis, Sev. Alex. 1; cf. Pelham, Journal of Philology, xvii. pp.
41, 42). At first at any rate the emperor, like the consul, made his
relatio in person; or, if unable to do so, communicated it in writing
through the consuls (Tiberius, Dio Cass. lviii, 11; Nero, Suet. Nero,
15). But from the close of the first century onwards the practice,
occasionally adopted by Augustus (Dio Cass. liv. 25) and by Claudius
(Id. lx. 2), of employing the quaestor principis as the emperor's
mouthpiece, became the regular one (QUAESTOR: cf. Digest 1, 13, 1,
quaestores . . . libris principalibus in senatu legendis vacant; ib.
4, quique epistulas eius in senatu legunt ). The relationes of the
emperor thus took the form of written speeches (orationes) or letters
(litterae, epistulae), and are usually referred to as such (Suet.
Tit. 6; Dig. 23, 2, 16, &c.).

The formal introduction of the business was followed, not by a
debate, in the modern sense of the word, but by the taking of the
sententiae (sententias rogare, perrogare) of the individual senators
in order. Just as the senate was in theory only a council of advice
consulted by the magistrate, so the senator's one duty was to give
his opinion (sententiam dicere), and technically in this one act both
speech and vote were included. But, as we shall see, considerations
of convenience, as well as the growing tendency to treat the senate's
expression of opinion as a positive decision, developed in practice a
process of counting votes actually, though not theoretically,
distinct from the taking of sententiae.

The magistrate, in taking the sententiae, was expected to follow a
well-established order of precedence, corresponding in the main to
that observed in the official roll (see above). Down to the time of
Sulla, the first sententia taken was that of the princeps senatus. In
the Ciceronian age the magistrate might select for this honour any
consular, subject only to two restrictions, as (1) he was expected to
adhere to the order adopted by him on his first day of office; (2)
after the consular elections, i. e. during the latter half of the
year, he was bound to give the priority to the consuls-designate. The
other consulares were taken next, usually in order of seniority;
after them the praetorii, aedilicii, &c. [It is possible that in
earlier times, before senatorial ascendancy was well established, the
magistrate's discretion in this respect was wider (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 974). The classical passage on the ordo sententiarum is Varro,
ap. Gell. xiv. 7, singulos autem debere consuli gradatim, incipique a
consulari gradu, ex quo gradu . . . antea primum rogari solitum qui
princeps in senatum lectus esset, tum autem cum haec scriberet . . .
ut is primus rogaretur, quem rogare vellet qui haberet senatum, dum
is tamen ex gradu consulari esset; cf. ib. iv. 10; Suet. Caes. 21,
post novam adfinitatem Pompeium primum rogare sententiam coepit
(Caesar). For the consules designati, comp. Sall. Cat. 50: Silanus
primus sententiam rogatus quod eo [p. 629] tempore consul designatus
erat; and Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Tac. Ann. iii. 22.] The right to give
an opinion, jus sententiam dicendae, belonged to all senators,
excepting only the magistrates of the year; the latter being in
theory the consulting and not the consulted parties (Liv. viii. 20;
Willems, ii. 189). It was only when the emperor made a relatio in
virtue of his special powers, that the sententiae of magistrates were
taken (Tac. Ann. iii. 17; Hist. iv. 41). But every magistrate could
at any moment interpose with a speech on the subject in hand.
[Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 943. The same author holds that in earlier
days plebeians directly admitted to the senate by consuls or censors,
without having held a qualifying magistracy, had no jus sententiae
dicendae (Staatsr. iii. 963), but could merely take part (pedibus
eundo) in the final discessio. Of this, however, there is no
sufficient evidence.] The question was put to each senator in turn in
the simple form die M. Tulli (quid censes) (Liv. i. 32; Cic. ad Att.
vii. 1), but the modes of reply were various. (1) The senator might
rise, discuss the question in a set speech, and close with a formal
statement of his opinion, so worded as to form the basis of a decree
( stantem sententiam dicere, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 4,
surrexit, ornatissimeque locutus est. For the form of the closing
statement of opinion, comp. Phil. xiv. 29, decerno igitur, &c.; ib.
x. 25, quod consul . . . verba fecit de litteris de ea re ita censeo;
ib. v. 46, ita censeo decernendum ). It was occasionally drafted in
writing beforehand (Phil. iii. 20). This method was that which, in
cases of any importance, consulars and other prominent senators were
expected to adopt (Liv. xxvii. 34). (2) He might, without rising,
express his agreement with some previous sententia, either verbo
(Cic. ad Att. vii. 3, dic M. Tulli: suntoma, Cn. Pompeio adsentior ),
or by a nod, or by holding up his hand ( verbo assentiebatur; Liv.
xxvii. 34; cf. Sall. Cat. 52, sedens assensi; Cic. ad Fam. v. 2). (3)
He might cross over to the side of a senator with whose opinion he
agreed ( pedibus ire in sententiam, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Q. Fr.
ii. 1, 3; Vit. Aureliani, 20, interrogati plerique senatores
sententias dixerunt . . . deinde aliis manus porrigentibus, aliis
pedibus in sententias euntibus, plerisque verbo consentientibus ). By
this method, a senator who had already given his sententia at length,
might indicate that he had changed his mind (Sall. Cat. 50,
Silanus . . . primus sententiam rogatus . . . decreverat: isque
postea permotus oratione G. Caesaris pedibus in sententiam Tiberi
Neronis iturum se dixerat ).

In strictness this orderly taking of opinions on business introduced
by a magistrate precluded both the introduction of fresh matter by
those consulted, and also any debate in the modern sense of the word.
But, in the Ciceronian age, custom sanctioned a freedom of speech
really inconsistent with the theory of the procedure. For a senator,
when asked for his opinion on a particular point, to seize the
opportunity to deliver a lengthy oration on some wholly irrelevant
matter, was a privilege thoroughly well recognised and frequently
exercised ( egredi relationem, Gell. iv. 10; Tac. Ann. ii. 38,; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 2. 8, quum tribuni plebis. . .de alia re referrent, totam
rempublicam sum complexus ). It was indeed the only means open to the
senator of forcing upon the attention of the senate subjects which
the magistrates were unwilling formally to bring before it (Cic.
Phil. vii. 1, parvis de rebus consulimur . . . tamen animus aberrat a
sententia, suspensus curis majoribus ). That the presiding magistrate
could not compel a senator to speak to the question is clear, and it
is doubtful how far he was able to limit the duration of his speech.
According to Ateius Capito (Gell. iv. 10), a senator could say,
quicquid vellet . . . et quoad vellet; and several instances are
recorded in which a measure was, as we should say, talked out (Cic.
ad Att. iv. 3, calumnia dicendi tempus exemit; Gell. iv. 10, eximebat
dicendo diem; cf. Cic. ad Att. iv. 2, ad Q. Fr. ii. 1, 3). One
instance only is recorded in which the presiding magistrate exercised
his authority to check this abuse, and then the feeling of the house
was decidedly against him (Caesar's arrest of Cato, Gell. iv. 10). On
another occasion the senate by resolution decided that the speeches
should be brief (Cic. ad Fam. i. 2). The altercationes, which were
not infrequent in the Ciceronian age, were certainly out of order,
but were as certainly tolerated (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 947; Willems,
ii. 191).

The theory of the procedure unquestionably implied that the
magistrate took the sense of the house on the matter which he had
laid before them, by asking each senator in turn to give his opinion
(perrogare sententias); and there is no evidence that he could, by
any form of closure, abridge the process (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 983,
as against Willems, i. 194). It is also possible that in the early
days, when the senate was still a subordinate and purely consultative
body, the sense of the house as expressed in the course of this
process was taken as sufficient, and that no formal division
(discessio) followed. But when the senate became in fact the
governing council, the business before it increased in amount and
complexity, and the importance of its decisions increased also. These
changes, coupled with the rise in its numbers from 300 to 600,
modified the character of the perrogatio sententiarum, and
necessitated a more exact method of taking a vote, i. e. of
dete<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24885 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Ave!

I have tried, at least twice with very little success. I will try again. I have about, upon counting them about 320 dissertations dealing with everything from Roman politics, Religio (which surprisingly is a HUGE field) Mos Maiorum therory and such that would be such an asset to NR. I will email the authors again.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post them!

Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but have
been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack of a
response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of other
reasons.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
> online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the
full
> bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is
added
> before any text:
>
> "This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
> only. The text is copyright of its owner."
>
> Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization,
and
> we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the
full
> reference and link where we took it, not making it public
(although
> it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively
Kansas
> and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we
can
> veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher
will
> even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of
his
> potential customers.
>
> These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
publish
> them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
abandon
> the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very
source
> and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
> subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
> Republic needs desesperatly.
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > >
> > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > > consent to post this information here?
> >
> > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
> think
> > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
> bottom
> > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> >
> > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
> LLD.
> > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London.
John
> Murray.
> > > 1890.
> >
> > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
University
> of
> > Kansas history department website.)
> >
> > Valete Quirites,
> >
> > -- Marinus
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24886 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
Ave, Ti. Labenus,

I did not know it was spam in the first place, I will be more careful next time!

Vale,

Sulla



> Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate

Salve Luci Corneli

> I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in school...

Mi Sulla, you, yourself, just re-published the entire article, leading to a
300kb(!) digest in my inbox.

Please, in the name of simple courtesy, learn to cut the posts that you are
replying to. It wouldn't have taken but a moment to select and delete the
article from beneath your reply, and it would have saved so much bandwidth.
___________________

> Subject: Re: Re:your website

Salve iterum Luci Corneli

> Can someone translate this for me? It came out as jibberish.

I believe that it was spam.

Valete




Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT







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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/

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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24887 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: National Gathering
Or you can use Trillian and use AIM, Yahoo, MSN, IRC and ICQ at the same time. You can get it at www.trillian.cc

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Collins
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering


How many Citizen's use Webcams with AIM, Yahoo, etc? If a lot do, we
could regularly
schedule AV Chat sessions. I was wondering because I was thinking about buying a
iSight for my iMac. They cost about $150 and I don't want to waste my money.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus


On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:00:24 -0400, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites, et salve Flavi Vedi,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> > Here's an idea; perhaps (once we get a full-time Curator Araneum,
> > that is), we could change the album civium somewhat. Include a
> > section that says "Warning—any information you enter below will be
> > visible to others" or somesuch. It would be completely voluntary,
> > where citizens can put up more information about themselves; city,
> > interests, etc.
>
> It's an excellent idea, and one I'll recommend to a Webmaster just as
> soon as we have one.
>
> > Ah, yes, Roman Days. This past weekend was as fine a time as
> > I've had in NR. There really is no substitute for pressing the
> > flesh and meeting your fellow cives face-to-face.
>
> Yes, it was a lovely time. I'm pleased that you were able to join us.
>
> Valete Quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24888 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Ave!

Thanks for the info, its always better to be safe than sorry.

Yes, I am recovering nicely, thank you!

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Salve Sulla

I hope your recovery is going well! The source for all of these posts is Bill Thayer's website and it says anything can be used for non commercial purposes which is what Lucius Arminius is doing. Most of it is from Smith and the copyright has long since expired as has Smith.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Ave Lucius Arminius,

I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's consent to post this information here? Because I got TONS of dissertations that I would LOVE to post on the ML but have been told by college professors that I must get the express consent of the author or publisher's before I could post their work.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate

This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner.

SENATUS

SENATUS The senate or council of elders (seniores: comp. the Greek
gerousia) ranked with the kingship, and the assembly of burgesses
among the oldest of Roman institutions, and, like the two latter,
existed also among the kindred communities of Latium (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 836, note 2). Its creation is ascribed by tradition to
Romulus (Liv. i. 8). The members of the senate were senatores. The
collective appellation patres (= chiefs rather than fathers )
belonged of right to the purely patrician senate of the earliest
days, but was transferred to the mixed patricio-plebeian body of
later times (Cicero, Sallust, and Livy, passim), and used as
equivalent to senatus. Similarly the two functions inherited by the
mixed senate from its patrician predecessor, the appointment [p. 621]
of the interrex, and the ratification of votes given by the assembly,
are always spoken of as acts of the patres, though in fact performed
by the senate as a whole. [For this and for Mommsen's rival theory,
that patres in these cases always meant only the patrician members of
the senate, see below.] The fact that the patrician patres had once
formed the whole senate, and that plebeians were not admitted until a
later time, was possibly commemorated by the official term patres
conscripti; the conscripti denoting originally the plebeian members
called up by the magistrate (Festus, p. 254; Liv. ii. 1; Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 839; Madvig, Verfass. i. 125. Willems, Le Sénat, i. 37
sqq., maintains on the contrary that the term means simply assembled
fathers. For Mommsen's view of the inferior position of the plebeian
conscripti, see below).

I. Number of the Senate. Roman tradition represents the senate as
consisting originally of 100 members (Liv. i. 8), and as having been
gradually enlarged to 300, though of the steps by which this increase
was effected it gives no consistent account. That 300 remained the
normal number down to the time of Sulla is generally agreed. From 81
B.C. to the dictatorship of Caesar, the nominal maximum was 600.
Under Caesar the numbers rose to 900 (Dio Cass. xliii. 47); under the
triumvirs to over 1000 (Suet. Aug. 35, erant enim super mille: cf.
Mon. Ancyr. 5, 6). Augustus reduced them once more to 600 (Suet. l.
c.; Dio Cass. liv. 13); but there is no proof that either by himself
or his successors was this limit strictly observed. [The advice given
by Maecenas to Augustus not to be particular as to the number of
senators (mêden peri tou plêthous autôn akribologoumenos, Dio Cass.
lii. 19) may be taken, with Mommsen, to represent the practice of
Dio's own time. See Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 850, note 3.]

II. Admission and expulsion of Senators.--It was a distinctive
peculiarity of the Roman senate, that admission to its ranks was
always given, not by popular election or by cooptation, but by the
act of the magistrate, who has for the time being the authority
legere in senatuzm; and though, as will be shown, his freedom of
choice was under the later Republic so restricted by law as to reduce
the lectio senatus to little more than the formal enrolment of
persons with a legal claim to be enrolled, yet his action continued
to be indispensable (Val. Max. ii. 3, 1), and under the Empire
regained much of its original liberty. The two principles that the
senate was only a council of advice for the magistrate, and that the
magistrate selected his councillors, though modified in practice by
the anxiety of the senate to assert its independence, were never
formally abandoned, and were successfully re-asserted by the Caesars.
Prof. Mommsen indeed has a theory that in pre-historic times the case
was otherwise, and that the original senate, as consisting of the
assembled heads (patres) of the patrician gentes, was independent as
to its composition of the authority of the magistrate (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 844, 854). That the early senate was composed
exclusively of patricians may be safely assumed. It is, moreover,
probable that from this original and close connexion with the gentes
were derived the claims which the patrician senate bequeathed to its
patricio-plebeian successor to be the special guardians of the
auspicia, and of the ancient order of things bound up with them. But
of a strictly representative gentile council there is, as Mommsen
himself confesses, no evidence. The senate as first known to us
appears as a council composed of patricians, but of patricians
selected by the chief magistrate [Liv. i. 8, Romulus centum creat
senatores. Willems' theory (Le Sénat, i. 26) that the senate was
originally a réunion de tous les patres familiarum seniores des
familles patriciennes, and that subsequently le choix royal succéda
au droit d'hérédité, is an equally unfounded and a less plausible
conjecture].

Starting from the earliest system known to us, that under which the
senators were chosen by the magistrate, we have to consider, (1) to
what magistrates this right of choice was successively granted; (2)
by what conditions, legal or customary, the choice was limited; and
(3) the mode in which the lectio senatus was carried out.

(1.) The prerogative of choosing senators belonged at first to the
king. From the king it passed to the consuls, and was during a brief
period granted to their temporary substitutes, the tribuni militum
consulari potestate (Festus, p. 246, ut reges sibi legebant,
sublegebantque quos in consilio publico haberent, ita post exactos
eos consules quoque et tribuni militum consulari potestate
conjunctissimos sibi quosque patriciorum et deinde plebeiorum
legebant ). The date at which it was transferred to the censors is
uncertain. That the change was not made before 387 A.U.C. = 367 B.C.,
the last year in which consular tribunes were appointed, is implied
in the passage quoted above from Festus; and it was not therefore
coeval with the institution of the censorship itself (443 B.C.).
According to the same passage, it was effected by a Lex Ovinia
tribunicia: donec Ovinia tribunicia intercessit qua sanctum est ut
censores ex omni ordine optimum quemque curiatim (sic) in senatum
legerent; and may be assumed to have been, as such, made in the
interest of the plebs. We may consequently place it after the passing
of the Lex Publilia (339 B.C.), which enacted that one censor must be
a plebeian (Liv. viii. 12), since a tribune of the plebs at that
period would not have been likely to entrust the choice of senators
to patrician magistrates. The first recorded lectio senatus by
censors is the famous one in the censorship of Appius Claudius Caecus
(312 B.C.; Liv. ix. 29), so that the Lex Ovinia and the transference
of the lectio senatus to the censors may be assigned to some date
between 339 B.C. and 312 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 395; Willems, i.
155). With the censors the duty remained down to the close of the
Republic, though on two occasions it was entrusted, as an exceptional
measure, to a dictator. In 216 B.C., after the battle of Cannae, M.
Fabius Buteo was created dictator for this purpose (Liv. xxiii. 22,
qui senatum legeret ); and Sulla exercised the prerogative as
dictator in 81 B.C. (Appian, B.C. i. 100). Both Julius Caesar and the
triumvirs selected senators in virtue of the extraordinary powers
vested in them. Augustus, true to his general policy, made a partial
return to the old practice. Although the censorship proper ceased to
exist, and the creation of senators devolved upon the princeps, the
old [p. 622] connexion between this act and the censorial authority
was not entirely lost sight of. Of the three regular lectiones
senatus held by Augustus (Mon. Ancyr. ii. 1, senatum ter legi ), the
first certainly and the two others probably coincided with the three
census of Roman citizens taken by him in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and 14 A.D.
Moreover, though under Augustus and his successors both the calling
up into the senate of persons legally qualified by the tenure of the
quaestorship, and the removal from the list of the names of such
senators as had died or proved themselves unworthy, took place
annually and quite independently of any censorial authority, the
direct admission (adlectio) of men freely selected by Caesar was a
power only occasionally exercised in the first century and always in
virtue of the censorial authority, e. g. by Claudius, Vespasian, and
Titus (C. I. L. v. 3117; Orelli, 3659; Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 877,
iii. 857). Domitian, as censor for life, first exercised it
continuously. From his time onwards the right was possessed and used
by all emperors at their discretion, and without any reference to
censorial authority as a power inherent in the imperial prerogative
(Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 857).

(2.) The old constitution left the king or consul free to choose as
senators the men he thought best fitted for the post. Full
citizenship, free birth (ingenuitas), and good character were no
doubt always indispensable for a seat in the senate as for a
magistracy; but although custom may have limited the choice of the
king to patricians, there is no proof that he was prohibited by law
from admitting plebeians; and the admission of the latter is
represented in tradition as the free act of the king or consul, not
as the consequence of special legislation. [Liv. ii. 1. Mommsen's
theory, that originally a seat in the senate was an exclusively
patrician privilege (Staatsr. iii. 870), must stand or fall with his
hypothesis mentioned above, of a time when the senate was a
representative council of the gentes. As he confesses himself, no
traces are discoverable of any formal representation in the senate of
the gentes or curiae.] The classical passage in Festus describes the
kings and consuls as choosing freely: conjunctissimos sibi
quosque . . . legebant; so that to be passed over inflicted no
disgrace, praeteriti senatores in opprobrio non erant (Id. ib.). Even
by the Lex Ovinia the censors were directed to choose ex omni ordine
optimum quemque; and Cicero declares (pro Sest. 65, 137) that the
original intention of the constitution was, that the senate should be
open omnium civium industriae ac virtuti. But this early freedom of
choice was gradually restricted. It is probable that the consuls at
the end of their year of office had always a claim to be enrolled as
senators, and we may assume that this privilege was conceded from the
first to praetores. When, owing to the transference of the lectio
senatus to the censors, the revision of the senatorial list took
place not annually but quinquennially, the ex-magistrates who had a
claim to be enrolled were permitted, after the end of their year of
office and while waiting for the next quinquennial lectio, to enter
the senate-house, and though not yet senators to give their
sententiae with the rest. Hence the distinction drawn between
senatores and those quibus in senatu sententiam dicere licet. (Liv.
xxiii. 32; Fest. p. 339; Varro, ap. Gell. iii. 18, qui nondum a
censoribus in senatum lecti, senatores non erant, sed quia honoribus
populi usi erant, in senatum veniebant, et sententiae jus habebant. )
The number of magistracies carrying this privilege increased as time
went on. By 216 B.C. it had evidently been extended to the curule
aedileship, since Livy, in describing the lectio of that exceptional
year, plainly includes the curule aedileship among the offices which
entitled their holders to a seat in the senate (Liv. xxii. 49, unde
in senatum legi deberent, xxiii. 23; and Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 860,
note 3). On the other hand, the minor magistracies, the plebeian
aedileship, tribunate, and quaestorship gave no such right as yet;
although, as we might expect, former holders of these offices were
selected next to ex-curule magistrates, and before such private
citizens as had distinguished themselves in war: primum in
demortuorum locum legit, qui post L. Aemilium, C. Flaminium censores
curulem magistratum cepissent, necdum in senatum lecti essent . . .
tum legit qui aediles, tribuni plebis, quaestoresve fuerant; tum ex
iis qui magistratus non cepissent, qui spolia ex hoste fixa domi
haberent aut civicam coronam accepissent (Liv. xxiii. 23). By Sulla's
time, if not before, the customary preference hitherto given to ex-
holders of the plebeian aedileship and tribuneship had been exchanged
for a legal claim both to the provisional seat and jus sententiae in
the senate, pending the next censorial lectio, and to formal
enrolment as senators when the time for the lectio arrived. [These
privileges were apparently given to the tribunes by the plebiscitum
Atinium (Gell. xiv. 8, 2, senatores non essent ante Atinium
plebiscitum ), the date of which must fall, according to Mommsen,
between 123 B.C. and 102 B.C. (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 862, note 2).
When the plebeian aediles obtained them is uncertain. Mommsen infers,
from their inclusion in the Lex Acilia among those quei in senatu
sient, that they had done so before 122 B.C. (ib. 861, note 2).]
Finally, the same rights were attached to the quaestorship by Sulla
(Tac. Ann. xi. 22, viginti quaestores creati supplendo senatui ). But
these rights had long lost all value for the holders of the higher
offices; since, owing to the gradual establishment of a fixed order
of succession to these posts, a man was presumably already a senator
by the time that he reached even the lowest curule magistracy. After
Sulla, they were of importance only for the quaestorship, which was
then legally established as the first step in the ladder of
promotion. As a rule even the tribunate was taken after the
quaestorship, and its holders were consequently already senators. The
effect of these changes was practically to destroy the magistrate's
freedom of choice. He still created senators, but as a rule the
number of ex-quaestors awaiting his call, and with a legal claim to
be called, must have been sufficient to fill the vacancies, and have
left no room for others. Of senators admitted by free selection of
the magistrate, there is no trace after 70 B.C., until we reach the
dictatorship of Caesar. The votes of the people in Comitia in fact
gave admission to the senate. (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153, [p. 623]
judicio populi Romani in amplissimum locum pervenire. ) But the call
of the magistrate was still indispensable; and with the Empire it
became once more a reality. The quaestorship still retained its right
to give a seat; and it is true that the transference of the elections
for the quaestorship to the senate by Tiberius gave that body in
appearance a complete control over its own composition, and
substituted cooptation both for the free choice of the magistrate and
for the votes of the people. But it was only in appearance; for,
apart from the influence which his control of the quaestorian
elections gave him, the emperor possessed and exercised the old right
of direct admission, now known as adlectio, possibly to distinguish
it from the old periodic lectiones of republican times (Mommsen,
Staatsr. ii. 877, note). This right, used occasionally (see above) by
the earlier emperors, was from the reign of Nerva onwards constantly
exercised. The person so admitted was assigned a definite place on
the roll, usually inter tribunicios, occasionally inter praetorios,
and in the 3rd century even inter consulares; this titular rank
counting as equivalent to the actual tenure of the office itself. The
increasing frequency of these adlectiones indicates the use of the
method as a means of strengthening the emperor's hold over the
senate, and of promoting his friends and protégés (Mommsen, Staatsr.
ii. 877 sqq.; Vita Pert. 6, cum Commodus adlectionibus innumeris
praetorios miscuisset; Vita Marci, 10, multos ex amicis adlegit ).

No qualification of age or property was originally fixed by law for a
seat in the senate; but from the time when election to the
quaestorship became the normal mode of entry into the senate, the
legal age for this office became practically that for the senate
also. Under the later Republic it was consequently thirty; from the
time of Augustus onwards, twenty-five (Dio Cass. lii. 20; QUAESTOR).
A property qualification was first introduced by Augustus, who fixed
it at one million sesterces (Dio Cass. liv. 17; Suet. Aug. 41; Tac.
Ann. i. 75, ii. 37). Under Trajan, all candidates for office, and
therefore for a seat in the senate, were compelled to invest a third
of their property in Italian land (Plin. Epp. vi. 19). This
proportion was reduced to a fourth by M. Aurelius (Vit. 11).

It should lastly be mentioned that in the early days of the Empire
the Roman franchise was given to Gauls (Tac. Ann. xi. 23), and
possibly to other provincials, without the right of standing for
office in Rome (jus honorum; and to such men, therefore, unless
directly admitted by the emperor, the senate-house was closed. But of
this special disability no trace is found after the reign of Claudius.

With the right of creating senators was closely connected that of
removing them (loco movere), or omitting them from the revised list
(praeterire). Of the mode in which it was exercised by the kings and
consuls we know nothing beyond the statement in Festus, that,
inasmuch as the magistrate then drew up the list as he chose, no
stigma attached to those whose names were left out (Festus, p. 246:
see above). It is easy to understand that the senate would resent
being so completely at the magistrate's mercy; and the Lex Ovinia,
carried as it was when the senate was slowly establishing its
ascendancy (339-312 B.C.), seems to have given greater security to
the senator's tenure of his seat. By transferring the revision of the
list to the censors, it substituted a quinquennial for an annual
revision; and though the removal or omission of a name henceforward
inflicted disgrace, this was probably due in part to the fact that
the censors, possibly under a clause of the law, were obliged not
only to be agreed in doing so (App. i. 28; Liv. xl. 51; Cic. pro
Cluent. 43, 122), but to state in writing their reasons for
inflicting the penalty (Ascon. in tog. Cand. p. 84; Liv. xxxix. 42,
adscriberent notas ). The power was no doubt abused more than once
for party or personal purposes, but in the main the evidence points
to the conclusion that the arrangement gave a senator fixity of
tenure, unless he were guilty of some act, or had incurred some
public disgrace, which by law or custom disqualified him for sitting
in the senate (e. g. deprivation of his office for misconduct, loss
of civic rights, conviction in certain cases in a court of justice,
gross immorality, extravagance, &c.). After 70 B.C., when the censors
expelled a number of the unworthy members placed on the list possibly
by Sulla, the power of expulsion or omission remained in abeyance
(Sull., Cat. 23, gives an instance, belonging to 70 B.C.), though
Cicero in the Laws advocates its revival ( probrum in senatu ne
relinquunto, de Legg. iii. 3, 7). Under the Empire it came again into
exercise. The thorough purgings of the overgrown senate by Augustus
in 29-28 B.C., and again in 18 B.C., were no doubt exceptional (Suet.
Aug. 35; Dio Cass. lii. 42, liv. 12), as was that carried out by
Vespasian after the civil wars of 69 A.D. (Suet. Vesp. 9, summotis
indignissimis ). But alike at the periodic lectiones held by
Claudius, Vespasian, and Titus as censors, and at the yearly revision
of the senatorial list, not only were the names removed of those who
had vacated their seats by death, by loss of the necessary property
qualification (unless the loss, as frequently happened, was made good
by the emperor: Tac. Ann. i. 75, ii. 37, xiii. 34; Suet. Nero, 10),
or by condemnation in a court of law; but those were also expelled
who for one. reason or another were held by the emperor to be
unworthy (Ann. ii. 48, prodigos et ob flagitia egentes; iv. 42, quod
in acta d. Augusti non juraverat; xi. 25, famosos; Suet. Domit. 8,
quod gesticulandi saltandique studio tenleretur: the alternative of
voluntary, withdrawal was sometimes given, Ann. ii. 48). This power
of removal, exercised as it was with increasing freedom and even
arbitrariness as time went on, combined with the more frequent use of
the right of adlectio completely to destroy that practical
independence of magisterial control which the republican senate had
gradually won for itself. The senate under the Principate became
again what it must have been in early days--a body of councillors,
largely selected by the chief magistrate at his discretion, and
retaining their seats at his good pleasure.

(3.) The mode in which the lectio or revision of the list was carried
out has next to be described. Our knowledge of this commences with
the period when the revision of the senate was in the hands of the
censors, i. e. at the earliest after 339 B.C. Although the lectio
senatus was not apparently an integral part of the census, like [p.
624] the recognitio equitnm (Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 396, and so
Willems), it seems to have immediately preceded it (Liv. xxiv. 18;
xxvii. 11, &c.). It was conducted usually by both censors jointly
(Liv. xxxii. 7, xl. 50; Willems, i. 241), though on one occasion at
least it was decided by lot which of the two should undertake the
work (Liv. xxvii. 11, sors legendi ). The first point, down to 81
B.C., was to select the senator whose name should stand at the head
of the list as princeps senatus and enjoy the privilege of giving his
sententia first. This honour belonged by ancient custom to the oldest
patrician censorius (Liv. l. c.; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 970). After
209 B.C. any patrician censorius might be chosen irrespective of
seniority. From the time of Sulla onwards, it is not clear that any
princeps senatus in the old sense was appointed: the list in the
Ciceronian age was possibly headed by the senior consular, and at any
rate the post, if it survived at all, must have been deprived of most
of its importance by the change made in the order of taking the
sententiae, which took away from the princeps the privilege of being
asked first (Varro, ap. Gell. xiv. 7; Willems, i. 114, maintains not
only that principes senatus existed after Sulla, but that they were
no longer necessarily patricians. Indeed, the three whose names he
gives--Q. Lutatius Catulus, P. Servilius Vatia, and Cicero--were all
plebeians. But his arguments are not conclusive). Under the Empire,
the emperors, following the example of Augustus (Mon. Anc. Gk. 4, 2,
prôton axiômatos topon tês sunklêtou), placed their own names at the
head of the list, though only in the case of Pertinax (Dio Cass.
lxxiii. 4) was the old title princeps senatus revived. The princeps
senatus chosen, the old list of the senate was gone through, the
names of deceased members or of those legally disqualified struck
out, those who had risen to higher office in the interval placed in
their proper position; and finally, any whom the censors judged
unfit, struck off the roll. the lectio of 216 B.C. there were no such
erasions, but this was exceptional (Liv. xxiii. 23).] The vacancies
were then filled up according to the order described above, though
here again the censors might pass over one or more of the legally
qualified claimants. In the completed list the senators were arranged
according to their official rank, from the dictatorii and censorii
down to the quaestorii; those, if there were any, who had held no
office, being no doubt placed last. Down to the time of Sulla, the
patricians in each magisterial category took precedence of the
plebeians; in the post-Sullan period, the members of each category
were arranged simply by official seniority (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii.
968; Willems, i. 259). Under the Empire a senator might obtain
precedence by the grant of the jus trium liberorum, and earlier still
by the successful prosecution in a public court of a senator higher
in rank than himself, whose place he took (Mommsen, l. c. 971; Dio
Cass. xxxvi. 40). Those persons directly admitted (adlecti) by the
emperor, among the praetorii or tribunicii, were properly placed
below the genuine ex-praetors or ex-tribunes (Vit. Pertin. 6). The
list when made up was in Republican times read aloud from the rostra
(Liv. xxiii. 23); under the Empire it was regularly published (Dio
Cass. lv. 3). It held good until the next revision, i. e. under the
Republic, until the next censors came into office. Under the Empire
the revision was annual (Dio Cass. l. c.). The official name for the
list, album senatorium, first occurs in Tacitus (Ann. iv. 42).

III. Composition and Character of the Senate.--The first important
change in the composition of the senate must have been effected by
the admission of plebeians--a measure ascribed by tradition to
Brutus, and certainly anterior to their admission to the consulship.
With the opening of the magistracies to plebeians, and the additions
made to the list of magistracies giving a legal claim to a seat, the
plebeian element in the senate grew in strength; and at the close of
the Punic wars largely outnumbered the patrician. (See the
calculations made by Willems, i. pp. 285 sqq.) The question then
arises, how far any distinction was maintained as regards rights and
privileges between these two elements? That the interrex was
necessarily, and the princeps senatus customarily, a patrician, is
certain (see above and art. INTERREX), as also that on the roll
patrician senators took precedence of plebeian senators of equal
official rank. But on two points there is a division of opinion: (1)
Were the functions of appointing the interrex (prodere interregem)
and of ratifying votes of the assembly (patrum auctoritas) reserved
exclusively for patrician senators? (2) Were plebeian senators at any
time without the right sententiam dicere? The first question is
answered in the affirmative by Mommsen (Röm. Forschungen, i. 218;
Staatsr. iii. 871) and Madvig (Verfass. i. 233, 496); in the negative
by Willems (ii. 1 and 33. See also INTERREX). The difficulty. in the
way of a decision is increased by the ambiguous sense in which the
term patres is used by ancient writers, and by the fact that while
the appointment of interreges had become extremely rare during the
period to which our best authorities (Cicero, Livy) belong, the
patrum auctoritas had long before that time been reduced to a
meaningless form (by the Lex Publilia, 339 B.C.). The most probable
view on the whole seems to be that, while both acts belonged
originally to the senate as a purely patrician body, they were in
later times performed by the patricio-plebeian senate as a whole.
[Cf. the extension of the term patres to cover the whole senate, and
the retention of the phrase patricii magistratus for the curule
offices long after these had been opened to plebeians (Cic. ad Brut.
i. 5). It is only in connexion with the three earliest interregna
under the Republic that Livy speaks of patricii (iii. 40, iv. 7, iv.
43: 421 B.C.). On later occasions he speaks always of patres, as does
Cicero throughout The patrum auctoritas is never expressly connected
with the patricii. For a full discussion, see Willems, l. c., and
INTERREX] The second question admits of a more confident answer. It
is agreed on all hands that in post-Sullan times no distinction is
traceable between patricians and plebeians as regards the right
sententiam dicere, and that the term pedarii had no legal value, but
merely denoted the lower ranks of senators (i. e. in fact the non-
curules), whose names, from want of time, were rarely reached in
taking the sententiae, and who were therefore, as a rule, obliged
pedibus ire in sententiam, [p. 625] i.e. to cross to one side or the
other of the senate-house. [Gell. iii. 18, qui in alienam sententiam
pedibus irent. The explanation of the term quoted in the same passage
from Gavius Bassus (1st century A.D.), Senatores qui magistratum
curulem nondum cepissent pedibus itavisse in curiam, though in fact
non-curules and pedarii coincide, is a bad guess, which, strangely
enough, Willems accepts (op. cit. i. 137). The confusion which
follows between the pedarii and the ex-curule magistrates nondum a
censoribus lecti is probably due to Gellius himself. The latter class
were not senators, but had the jus sententiae dicendae; the pedarii
were senators, but in practice were unable sententiam dicere. The
confusion is repeated in Lewis and Shortt's Latin Dict. The sense of
inferiority associated with the pedarii in the senate sufficiently
explains the equites pedarii of Varro (=common or inferior equites).]

But Mommsen, while agreeing that in the Ciceronian age pedarius was
merely a conventional epithet describing the actual but not the legal
position of the lower senators, holds that in earlier times the term
had a statutable meaning, and denoted plebeian senators directly
admitted by consuls or censors, as distinct from those qualified by
office --a class which ceased to exist after 81 B.C. These plebeian
senators were, he thinks, legally incapable of delivering sententiae,
and only allowed to vote (pedibus ire). The objections to this theory
are: (1) That no such distinction can be drawn between the right
sententiam dicere and the right to vote. For the Roman senator, the
sententia and the vote were the same thing, though the sententia
might be given in different ways, of which the pedibus ire was one
[see below under Procedure]. (2) That though there were certainly at
one time men in the senate with the jus sententiae who were not
senators, there is no evidence of the existence at any time of
senators without this right. (3) There is no proof that there was
ever a legally distinct class of pedarii, or that the term had ever
any other meaning than that which it bore in the Ciceronian age.

The admission of plebeians has been assigned to the early days of the
Republic; the period from the Lex Ovinia to the dictatorship of Sulla
witnessed another change which stood in close connexion with the
growing ascendancy of the senate in the political system. The class
of senators freely chosen by the magistrate as distinct from those
whom election to office had given a legal claim on his call,
gradually disappeared (Cic. de Legg. iii. 1. 2, neminem in summum
locum nisi per populum venire ), and the senate came to be composed
entirely of actual and ex-officials, to the exclusion of lay
interests and opinions--an exclusiveness intensified by the extent to
which from 200 B.C. onwards the official class was recruited from a
single section of Roman society, that of the nobiles. In Cicero's day
the only working classification of senators was classification by
official rank.

Further changes followed under the Empire. The class of those who,
while awaiting the next lectio, were permitted to sit in the senate
and give sententiae (see above), must have ceased to exist, when the
yearly revision enabled the emperor to call them up immediately on
the expiry of their year of office. On the other hand, though the
official classification continued, and even those directly adlecti by
Caesar were placed in one official category or another, and though
the majority of senators as a rule entered by the old official door,
the quaestorship, the increasing number of the adlecti unquestionably
served not only to strengthen the emperor's control over the senate,
but to widen the area from which its members were drawn. The effect
of Vespasian's admission of numerous Italians and provincials is
specially noticed by Tacitus (Ann. iii. 55, novi homines e municipiis
et coloniis atque etiam provinciis--domesticam parsimoniam
intulerunt. Senators from the eastern provinces are very rare before
the 2nd century). But while in this way the senate became in its
composition more representative of the whole Empire, a narrowing
effect was exercised by the tendency to confine the senatorial
dignity to a particular class, by making it hereditary. The way for
this latter change was prepared in the last century of the Republic.
In the time of Cicero, the male members of the great families passed
into the senate through the quaestorship, almost as a matter of
course. The son of a senator was expected and as a rule did thus
qualify himself for senatorial rank; and Cicero contrasts the
senatorial and official career proper to young nobles, with the
quieter and less ambitious course marked out by custom for members of
the equestrian order (Cic. pro Cluent. 56, 153). But as yet the son
of a senator had no legal claim to be himself a senator, nor did he
as such enjoy any legal distinctions or privileges. Even the phrase
ordo senatorius is usually limited in meaning to the actual senate
(Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 459). Julius, it is true, extended the
restriction on foreign travel from senators to their sons (Suet. Jul.
42); but from Augustus dates the first attempt to make the senatorial
dignity formally hereditary, and to give the ordo senatorius, as
distinct from the senate, a legal existence. According to his
regulations, the sons of senators were authorised to assume the broad
stripe (latus clavus) on the assumption of the toga virilis, and to
attend meetings of the senate (a revival of an ancient custom, Gell.
i. 23). They entered the army as tribuni militum or praefecti alarum,
and were distinguished from other young officers as laticlavii (Suet.
Aug. 38, liberis senatorum, quo celerius reipublicae assuescerent,
protinus a virili toga, latum clavum induere et curiae interesse
permisit, militiamque auspicantibus non tribunatum modo legionum, sed
et praefecturas alarum dedit . . . binos plerumque laticlavios
praeposuit singulis alis. The ordinary trib. mil. were angusticlavii,
Suet. Otho, 10). From military service they passed on to the
quaestorship and a seat in the senate. That under the earlier
emperors this career was morally incumbent both on senators' sons and
on other young men, to whom the emperor had granted the latus clavus,
seems certain (they are described as honores petituri: Plin. Ep.
viii. 14; Dio Cass. lix. 10, epi têi tês boulês elpidi), but there is
no proof that in the 1st century A.D. it was legally necessary. [We
hear of several cases in which a man either declines to assume the
latus clavus, or discards [p. 626] it after a time. Suet. Vesp. 2,
latum clavum din aversatus (Vespasian); Tac. Ann. xvi. 17, Mela
petitione honorum abstinuerat; Hist. ii. 86, prima juventa senatorium
ordinem exuerat; Ovid, Trist. iv. 10, 35. Claudius, however, as
censor took a strict view of the obligation (Suet. Claud. 24,
senatoriam dignitatem recusantibus equestrem quoque ademit. Augustus,
at the lectio, in B.C. 13, compelled qualified persons under 35
bouleusai (Dio Cass. liv. 26).] A further illustration of the same
policy is the enactment due to Augustus prohibiting both senators and
their sons from marriage with libertinae (Lex Papia Poppaea, Dig. 23,
2, 23). The development of the policy by the emperors of the 2nd
century cannot be traced in detail. At the close of that century,
however, we find the two orders, senatorial and equestrian, clearly
and sharply distinguished. Each has its own privileges. The careers
appropriate to the members of each order are different, and the
passage from one to the other difficult and rarely made. [EQUITES;
PRINCIPATUS; PROCURATOR.] Suetonius already contrasts senatoria et
equestria officia, Galb. 15; cf. Vita Commodi, 4, per laticlavi
honorem a praefecturae (sc. praetorio, an equestrian office)
administratione summovit. By the lawyers of the early part of the 3rd
century senatorial rank is treated as strictly hereditary. Not only
the sons, but the grandsons of senators are born into the senatorial
order, and cannot escape either the honours or the burdens attached
to the dignitas senatoria. Neither posthumous birth, nor adoption
into a family of lower rank, affects their position (Dig. 7, 35, 9,
7). As Mommsen has well said (Staatsr. iii. 467), the senatorial
order took the place as a hereditary nobility of the nobiles of the
later Republic, as they had in their turn superseded the patriciate.
[For the distinctive privileges and liabilities of the senatorial
order as thus constituted, see the next section;--for its general
position, cf. Mommsen, Staatsr. ii. 865, iii. 466; Madvig, Verf. i.
123 sqq.; Friedländer, Sittengesch. i. 197 sqq.]

IV. Insignia, Privileges, &c.--In Republican times the senator bore
no distinctive title, for senator Romanus was never like eques
Romanus in official use. The title of courtesy clarissimus, though
not unfrequently applied to senators at an early date, was first
formally assigned to them in the 2nd century A.D. (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 565), and then or soon afterwards extended not only to their
sons, but to their wives and daughters. The outward insignia of the
senator were always the broad purple stripe on the tunic (latus
clavus) and the red sandals (calcei) with the crescent-shaped buckle
(luna), and the leathern thongs wound round the leg (lora). The
former of these insignia was possibly not older than the Gracchan
period (sero, Plin. H. N. xxxiii. § 29); the latter were originally
the distinctive mark of the patrician. Under the Empire the latus
clavus was assumed by a senator's son on reaching manhood; while the
red sandals were worn even in childhood (Stat. Silv. v. 2, 28).
Separate seats in the theatre were first assigned to senators in 194
B.C. (Liv. xxxiv. 44), and at the shows in the circus by Claudius
(Suet. Claud. 21). A variety of fresh distinctions were conceded as
the senatorial order under the Empire increasingly assumed the
character of a hereditary peerage, e. g. the right of entrée to the
imperial presence (Dio Cass. lvii. 11), and of banquets at the public
cost (Suet. Aug. 35), the use of covered carriages by their wives
(Dio Cass. lvii. 15), of silver plating upon their own vehicles (Vit.
Sev. Alex. 43), and of running footmen (cursores, Vit. Aurel. 49). In
the 3rd century A.D., and probably earlier still, they were exempt
from all burdens, though still eligible for honores in their own
municipia (Dig. 50, 1, 23, municeps esse desinit senatoriam adeptus
dignitatem, quantum ad munera: quantum vero ad honorem, retinere
creditur originem; cf. the omission in inscriptions of senators of
their place of domicile; see Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 2, 887, note 1).
Though subject, like other citizens, to the ordinary law, they were
outside the jurisdiction of municipal authorities. From Hadrian dated
the custom for the emperor to summon only senatorial assessors to sit
with him in judgment on a senator (Vit. Hadr. 8), a practice revived
by Severus Alexander (Vit. 21, ne quis non senator de Romano senatore
judicaret ). But the increased outward dignity of their position
under the Empire brought with it not only increased risk under the
worse emperors, but increased liabilities and restrictions. Their
exclusion from trade and from taking state contracts, as also their
liability and that of their sons to prosecution under the leges de
repetundis, date from republican times (Lex Claudia, Liv. xxi. 63:
cf. Dig. 50, 5; Lex Acilia de pec. repet. 2; Bruns, Fontes jur. Rom.
54; Cic. pro Cluent. 55, 150). In addition, Severus Alexander forbade
them to lend money except at a low rate of interest (Vit. 26). The
prohibition issued in Tiberius' reign against intercourse with stage-
buffoons (Ann. i. 77) was, like that against marriage with
libertinae, intended to preserve the dignity of the order. But
Claudius's edict forbidding praetorian guardsmen to attend the
morning levees of senators (Suet. Claud. 25) was no doubt provoked by
the same jealousy of senatorial interference with the army, which
finally led to their exclusion from military commands and from the
camps by Gallienus (Victor. Caes. 33). The separate taxation of
senators did not exist as a system before Diocletian (Mommsen,
Staatsr. iii. 2, 900 f.). The costly obligation of providing games
was a magisterial rather than a senatorial burden. [LUDI; PRAETOR;
QUAESTOR. For the privilege originally enjoyed by senators of voting
in the equitum centuriae, and for their duty of serving as judices in
the quaestiones perpetuae, see COMITIA; JUDEX; QUAESTIO.]

V. Procedure.--The right to hold a meeting of the senate (senatum
habere), to consult it (consulere, referre, relationem facere), and
to carry a decree (senatusconsultum facere) belonged in the
Ciceronian age to consuls, praetors, and tribunes of the plebs; but
if all were present in Rome together, they could only exercise it in
the above order of precedence. The right no doubt attached to the
consulship and praetorship from the moment of their establishment. It
was acquired by the tribunate at some period previous to the
plebiscitum Atinium (? before 133 B.C.). The right was also given to
the dictator, interrex, [p. 627] and praefectus urbi. [See the
classical passage, Gell. xiv. 7, 8, Primum ibi ponit (Varro) per quos
more majorum senatus haberi soleret, eosque nominat, dictatorem,
consules, praetores, tribunos plebi, interregem, praefectum
urbi . . . tribunis plebi senatus habendi jus erat quamquam senatores
non essent ante Atinium plebiscitum. ] Any one of these magistrates
could be prevented from exercising the right by the interference of a
colleague, or of a superior, or of a tribune. [INTERCESSIO;
TRIBUNUS.] In the earlier times, when the consuls were frequently
absent from Rome in the field, the duty of convening the senate
constantly developed upon the praetor urbanus (Liv. xxii. 7; xxvi.
21; xlii. 8, &c.). In the Ciceronian age, it is regularly performed
by the consuls (Cic. ad Fam. xii. 2. 8; CONSUL). Augustus in 23 B.C.
was specially empowered to hold a senate as often as he would, even
when not consul (Dio Cass. liv. 3), and the power was continued to
his successors (Lex de Imp. Vesp. 2, utique ei senatum habere . . .
liceat, ita uti licuit divo Augusto, &c. Tiberius before he was
formally invested with this power convened the senate tribuniciae
potestatis praescriptione sub Augusto acceptae, Tac. Ann. i. 7). But
even under the emperors it was usually the consuls who convened the
senate and presided at its meetings (Plin. Epp. ii. 11, princeps
praesidebat erat enim consul; cf. Id. Paneg. 76).

The magistrate who convened the senate determined also the place of
meeting, subject, however, to certain conditions. A lawful senate
could only be held in a templum, and, except in special cases, within
the pomerium (Gell. xiv. 7, in loco per augurem constituto, quod
templum appellaretur: see TEMPLUM). Among the ordinary meeting-places
of the senate in republican times were the Curia Hostilia and the
temples of Concord, of Castor, of Jupiter Stator, and of Tellus. The
senate could be convened outside the pomerium, but intra milia
passuum, if either embassies from states not in alliance with Rome or
a pro-magistrate [PROCONSUL; PROPRAETOR] were to take part in the
proceedings (Mommsen, Staatsr. iii., 930. As meeting-places outside
the pomerium, the temples of Apollo and of Bellona are mentioned:
Liv. xxxiv. 43; Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Plut. Sull. 30).

The senate could not be summoned to meet before sunrise or sit after
sunset (Gell. xiv. 7). But under the Republic there were no fixed
days for its meetings any more than for those of the Comitia.
Augustus first enacted that there should be two regular meetings held
in each month (Suet. Aug. 35, ne plus quam bis in mense legitimus
senatus ageretur Kal. et Idibus, Dio Cass. lv. 3). Nor is it clear
that in early times there were any days on which a senate could not
be lawfully held. But by a Lex Pupia, the date of which Mommsen fixes
at about 154 B.C., the magistrates were apparently forbidden to hold
a senate upon any day actually appointed for Comitia, or possibly
upon any of the days on which Comitia might legally be held (dies
comitiales, Cic. ad Fam. i. 4, senatus haberi ante Kal. Febr. per
legem Pupiam . . . non potest; Id. ad Q. Fr. ii. 2, consecuti sunt
dies comitiales per quos senatus haberi non potest: cf ad Fam. viii.
8; Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 921-923).

The usual mode of summoning the senate (cogere senatum) was by a
proclamation issued by one or both the consuls, naming the date and
place of meeting, and occasionally stating the special business to be
considered (Liv. xxviii. 9, praemisso edicto ut triduo post senatus
ad aedem Bellonae adesset; Suet. Caes. 28, edicto praefatus se summa
de republica relaturlum; Cic. ad Fam. xi. 6, quam edixissent . . .
senatus adesset ). The procedure was the same if the magistrate
concerned was a praetor or tribune. The magistrate was empowered, if
necessary, to compel the attendance of senators by taking pledges for
their attendance, or by fining those who failed to appear (Gell. xiv,
7; Cic. de Legg. iii. 4, Phil. i. 12); but this power was, it would
seem, sparingly exercised under the later Republic, and the increased
numbers of the senate after 81 B.C., added to the fact that no quorum
was required by law, gave little occasion for its use. Under the
Empire it was otherwise. Augustus found it necessary not only to fix
a quorum (Dio Cass. lv. 3: see below), but to increase the penalties
for non-attendance (Dio Cass. liv. 18), and Claudius did the same
(Dio Cass. lx. 11: cf. Tac. Ann. xvi. 27, patres arguebat(Nero) quod
publica munia desererent ).

On the assembling of the senate, usually in the early morning, the
senators took their seats, as they chose, upon the benches
(subsellia) ranged in rows to the right and left of the curule chairs
of the presiding magistrates; the latter being so placed as to face
the door of the house. [Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 932, has shown that
under the Republic neither the ordinary senators nor, as Willems (ii.
173) maintains, the magistrates generally, had any special or fixed
seats.] Under the Empire the emperor's chair was placed between those
of the consuls (this seat was first assigned to Augustus in 19 B.C.:
Dio Cass. liv. 10); and separate seats were assigned to the
praetors., tribunes, and possibly to the other magistrates (Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 934). The proceedings opened with a sacrifice, followed
by the inspection of the victim's entrails (Gell. xiv. 7; Mommsen,
op. cit. p. 935).

The magistrate who summoned the senate also presided at its meetings,
and it is he who, subject to certain customary rules, determines what
business shall be laid before the house and in what order. It was his
duty, in the first place, to communicate to the senate any news of
importance, to read despatches received from officials abroad, and to
introduce provincial or foreign deputations (Caesar, B.C. i. 2; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 1. 2, 3; Liv. xliv. 20, 21). On his demand, or with his
permission, any individual senator might similarly read letters,
communicate information, or make a statement to the house. The same
privilege belonged to praetors and tribunes, as having the right to
consult the senate, even when not actually presiding.

The magistrate might follow up these preliminary communications by
referring one or more of the points raised to the senate for its
opinion, and the senate not unfrequently demanded by acclamation that
such a reference should be made. It rested, however, with the
magistrate to decide whether or not this further step should be taken
(Liv. xxx. 21, conclamatum ex omni parte curiae est, uti referret [p.
628] P. Aelius praetor; ib. xlii. 3, ex omnibus partibus postulabatur
ut consules earn rem ad senatum referrent; Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6;
Caes. B.C. i. 1, ut ex litteris ad senatum referretur, impetrari non
potuit ).

The formal consultation of the senate (relatio) was governed by a
variety of customary rules. After, usually, an explanation of the
business in question ( verba facere, Cic. ad Fam. viii. 8; Phil.
viii. 14, &c.), the magistrate asked the senate quid de ea re fieri
placet, without himself submitting a definite proposition (Sall. Cat.
30; Cic. Cat. i. 1. 0, iii. 13). Occasionally the magistrate
indicated his own view (Liv. xxxix. 39, sibi nisi quid aliud eis
videretur in animo esse . . . comitia habere. For instances of a
definite proposition, see Suet. Caes. 28, rettulit ad senatum ut ei
succederetur; Cic. Phil. i. 1, scriptum senatusconsultum quod fieri
vellet attulit; cf. Cic. Phil. x. 1. 7). It is significant of the
more dependent position of the senate in relation to the emperor that
the latter, when consulting the senate, usually made at the same time
a definite proposal (see below). The reference to the senate might
either be general ( infinite de republica, Gell. xiv. 7; cf. Liv.
xxvi. 10, de summa republica consultatum ) or special ( de singulis
rebus finite, Gell. xiv. 7; Cic. Phil. vii. 1, de Appia Via et de
Moneta ), and the senators might, in giving their sententiae, express
a wish for the separate reference of some particular question (Cic.
Phil. x. 2. 4, de M. Appuleio separatim censeo referendum, ad Fam.
viii. 8, ne quid conjunctim referatur ). Custom again prescribed in
general terms the order in which the business should be taken: de
rebus divinis priusquam humanis ad senatum referendum esse (Gell.
xiv. 7; cf. Liv. xxii. 9, ab diis orsus--tum de bello deque
republica ); but here again the practice at least of the later
Republic allowed a certain weight to the wishes of the senators
themselves, who might either directly demand urgency for a particular
question (Cic. ad Fam. x. 1. 6, flagitare senatus institit . . . ut
referret statim ), or indirectly force the magistrate's hand by
refusing to give opinions upon any matter until the desired point had
been submitted to them (Cic. ad Att. iii. 2. 4, senatum nihil
decernere, antequam de nobis actum esset; in Pison. 13, 29, quum
quacunque de re verbum facere coeperatis aut referre ad senatum,
cunctus ordo reclamabat, ostendebatque, nihil esse vos acturos, nisi
prius de me rettulissetis ). The right of reference (jus referendi,
consulendi senatum, cum patribus agendi) belonged, exclusively of
extraordinary magistrates, to consuls, tribunes of the plebs, and
praetors; the latter, however, do not appear to have exercised it
except in the absence of the consuls. As between consuls and
tribunes, the consul's business took precedence, though it would seem
from Cic. Phil. vii. 1, that if the questions were small ones, the
references of both consuls and tribunes might be put conjointly to
the house ( de Appia Via et de Moneta consul; de Lupercis tribunus
plebis refert ). To the emperors a special right of reference, as of
convening the senate, was granted by statute, in addition to that
which they possessed in virtue of the tribunicia potestas. This
right, granted to Augustus in 23 B.C. on his resignation of the
consulship (Dio Cass. liii. 32), and confirmed to his successors (Lex
Vespas. 2, Bruns, 128), invested him with the power of making the
first relatio (peri henos tinos, Dio Cass. op. cit.) at each meeting
of the senate, and was afterwards extended so as to enable him to
make four and even five relationes before the regular magistrates
took their turn ( jus quartae relationis, Vit. Pert. 5; quintae
relationis, Sev. Alex. 1; cf. Pelham, Journal of Philology, xvii. pp.
41, 42). At first at any rate the emperor, like the consul, made his
relatio in person; or, if unable to do so, communicated it in writing
through the consuls (Tiberius, Dio Cass. lviii, 11; Nero, Suet. Nero,
15). But from the close of the first century onwards the practice,
occasionally adopted by Augustus (Dio Cass. liv. 25) and by Claudius
(Id. lx. 2), of employing the quaestor principis as the emperor's
mouthpiece, became the regular one (QUAESTOR: cf. Digest 1, 13, 1,
quaestores . . . libris principalibus in senatu legendis vacant; ib.
4, quique epistulas eius in senatu legunt ). The relationes of the
emperor thus took the form of written speeches (orationes) or letters
(litterae, epistulae), and are usually referred to as such (Suet.
Tit. 6; Dig. 23, 2, 16, &c.).

The formal introduction of the business was followed, not by a
debate, in the modern sense of the word, but by the taking of the
sententiae (sententias rogare, perrogare) of the individual senators
in order. Just as the senate was in theory only a council of advice
consulted by the magistrate, so the senator's one duty was to give
his opinion (sententiam dicere), and technically in this one act both
speech and vote were included. But, as we shall see, considerations
of convenience, as well as the growing tendency to treat the senate's
expression of opinion as a positive decision, developed in practice a
process of counting votes actually, though not theoretically,
distinct from the taking of sententiae.

The magistrate, in taking the sententiae, was expected to follow a
well-established order of precedence, corresponding in the main to
that observed in the official roll (see above). Down to the time of
Sulla, the first sententia taken was that of the princeps senatus. In
the Ciceronian age the magistrate might select for this honour any
consular, subject only to two restrictions, as (1) he was expected to
adhere to the order adopted by him on his first day of office; (2)
after the consular elections, i. e. during the latter half of the
year, he was bound to give the priority to the consuls-designate. The
other consulares were taken next, usually in order of seniority;
after them the praetorii, aedilicii, &c. [It is possible that in
earlier times, before senatorial ascendancy was well established, the
magistrate's discretion in this respect was wider (Mommsen, Staatsr.
iii. 974). The classical passage on the ordo sententiarum is Varro,
ap. Gell. xiv. 7, singulos autem debere consuli gradatim, incipique a
consulari gradu, ex quo gradu . . . antea primum rogari solitum qui
princeps in senatum lectus esset, tum autem cum haec scriberet . . .
ut is primus rogaretur, quem rogare vellet qui haberet senatum, dum
is tamen ex gradu consulari esset; cf. ib. iv. 10; Suet. Caes. 21,
post novam adfinitatem Pompeium primum rogare sententiam coepit
(Caesar). For the consules designati, comp. Sall. Cat. 50: Silanus
primus sententiam rogatus quod eo [p. 629] tempore consul designatus
erat; and Cic. ad Fam. viii. 4; Tac. Ann. iii. 22.] The right to give
an opinion, jus sententiam dicendae, belonged to all senators,
excepting only the magistrates of the year; the latter being in
theory the consulting and not the consulted parties (Liv. viii. 20;
Willems, ii. 189). It was only when the emperor made a relatio in
virtue of his special powers, that the sententiae of magistrates were
taken (Tac. Ann. iii. 17; Hist. iv. 41). But every magistrate could
at any moment interpose with a speech on the subject in hand.
[Mommsen, Staatsr. iii. 943. The same author holds that in earlier
days plebeians directly admitted to the senate by consuls or censors,
without having held a qualifying magistracy, had no jus sententiae
dicendae (Staatsr. iii. 963), but could merely take part (pedibus
eundo) in the final discessio. Of this, however, there is no
sufficient evidence.] The question was put to each senator in turn in
the simple form die M. Tulli (quid censes) (Liv. i. 32; Cic. ad Att.
vii. 1), but the modes of reply were various. (1) The senator might
rise, discuss the question in a set speech, and close with a formal
statement of his opinion, so worded as to form the basis of a decree
( stantem sententiam dicere, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Att. i. 1. 4,
surrexit, ornatissimeque locutus est. For the form of the closing
statement of opinion, comp. Phil. xiv. 29, decerno igitur, &c.; ib.
x. 25, quod consul . . . verba fecit de litteris de ea re ita censeo;
ib. v. 46, ita censeo decernendum ). It was occasionally drafted in
writing beforehand (Phil. iii. 20). This method was that which, in
cases of any importance, consulars and other prominent senators were
expected to adopt (Liv. xxvii. 34). (2) He might, without rising,
express his agreement with some previous sententia, either verbo
(Cic. ad Att. vii. 3, dic M. Tulli: suntoma, Cn. Pompeio adsentior ),
or by a nod, or by holding up his hand ( verbo assentiebatur; Liv.
xxvii. 34; cf. Sall. Cat. 52, sedens assensi; Cic. ad Fam. v. 2). (3)
He might cross over to the side of a senator with whose opinion he
agreed ( pedibus ire in sententiam, Liv. xxvii. 34; Cic. ad Q. Fr.
ii. 1, 3; Vit. Aureliani, 20, interrogati plerique senatores
sententias dixerunt . . . deinde aliis manus porrigentibus, aliis
pedibus in sententias euntibus, plerisque verbo consentientibus ). By
this method, a senator who had already given his sententia at length,
might indicate that he had changed his mind (Sall. Cat. 50,
Silanus . . . primus sententiam rogatus . . . decreverat: isque
postea permotus oratione G. Caesaris pedibus in sententiam Tiberi
Neronis iturum se dixerat ).

In strictness this orderly taking of opinions on business introduced
by a magistrate precluded both the introduction of fresh matter by
those consulted, and also any debate in the modern sense of the word.
But, in the Ciceronian age, custom sanctioned a freedom of speech
really inconsistent with the theory of the procedure. For a senator,
when asked for his opinion on a particular point, to seize the
opportunity to deliver a lengthy oration on some wholly irrelevant
matter, was a privilege thoroughly well recognised and frequently
exercised ( egredi relationem, Gell. iv. 10; Tac. Ann. ii. 38,; Cic.
ad Fam. x. 2. 8, quum tribuni plebis. . .de alia re referrent, totam
rempublicam sum complexus ). It was indeed the only means open to the
senator of forcing upon the attention of the senate subjects which
the magistrates were unwilling formally to bring before it (Cic.
Phil. vii. 1, parvis de rebus consulimur . . . tamen animus aberrat a
sententia, suspensus curis majoribus ). That the<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24889 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: What is Nova Roma?
Flavius Vedius Germanicus Novaromanii S.P.D.



Salvete omnes,



The question has been raised, perhaps not in so many words, of what, exactly, Nova Roma is. Is it a pagan religious organization? Is it a historical reconstruction society? Is it a sovereign nation, or at the very least a micronation with such aspirations?



I would say that the answer is �yes�.



I confess I don�t see why there must be any single answer to the question of �What is Nova Roma?� Surely we are diverse enough, and the study and practice of things Roman is a vast enough endeavor, that we can accommodate a vast array of people with differing interests, foci, and goals.



Indulge me, if you will, as I go through just a few of the multitude of answers to the question I have posed.



Nova Roma is a pagan religious organization. It is established as a home for those of us who wish to see the Religio Romana re-established as it was in Roma Antiqua. To that end, we have not only recreated the ancient priestly colleges to help inform our members about the proper conduct of the Religio Privata, but also the necessary political infrastructure (the magistracies and the legal fiction of our micronation) in order to be able to conduct the Religio Publica on behalf of our organization as a whole.



Nova Roma is an educational organization. Through our sponsorship of various reenactment legions throughout the world, as well as other endeavors, we seek to educate modern society as to the realities of Roman history, from the Kings to the Emperors, and make such as enjoyable, accurate, and educational as possible. We do this through the arts of living history (reenactment) as well as more traditional educational opportunities.



Nova Roma is a social organization. By encouraging and facilitating people of like mind and similar interests to get together and indulge in real-world activities centered around Rome, we perform a vital service to our members. Our provincial infrastructure and nascent system of oppidia and municipia are the tools through which we encourage and facilitate such meetings, which could take almost any form from an informal modern dinner to a showing of a Hollywood �Roman Epic� to the staging of a drama. The details are up to those who are getting together, but Nova Roma is there to bring them together.



Nova Roma is an advocacy organization. We give material and other support to worthy projects dealing with the preservation and restoration of historical Roman archaeological sites, linguistic projects, and the active promotion of Roman philosophy�particularly, but not exclusively, the Roman Virtues�in modern society. We try to make the modern world better by maintaining and nurturing ancient example.



Nova Roma is a sovereign nation. Although we do not currently hold any territory that is recognized by any other sovereign nation, it is a goal to which we aspire. Is it a goal that is completely unrealistic? Something whose prospects for coming about would daunt even the bravest? Absolutely. But let us aspire to the loftiest goals, because we are worth such, even if we wait for the world to recognize the rightness of our claim. Rome, to coin a phrase, was not built in a day.



I could go on, and I apologize if I have omitted anyone�s favorite aspect of Nova Roma, but I think the point is made.



I, for one, cannot see any reason those definitions, or any of the other multitude of definitions that answer the question �What is Nova Roma?�, must be mutually exclusive.



Because we are a religious organization, does that mean that we cannot be an educational one? Or a social one? Or an advocacy one? Of course not, and unless the interests of the religious, the educators, the socialites, and the advocates violently conflict, I don�t see how they could infringe on one another. And I have yet to see any issue upon which such interests are violently conflicting.



I hope this helps to put a few things into perspective. Many of us here come to Nova Roma for widely divergent purposes. We really can all get along as long as we recognize that fact, and I daresay that we actually enhance and multiply one anothers� efforts, as the cross-pollenization of such divergent approaches to the rebirth of our beloved Rome can ultimately do nothing but strengthen each of our approaches. We all have something to teach, and learn from, each other.



As always, I am in service to the Republic,





Flavius Vedius Germanicus,

Pater Patriae



AIM: Flavius Vedius



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24890 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: National Gathering
I would be using either Apple's iChat AV(AIM) or Yahoo Msgr for chats
if I get the iSight. I just thought since actual face-to-face meetings
would be hard for some to do that contacts
by webcam would serve for the time being.

Gn Cornelius Lentulus

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:30:35 -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla
<alexious@...> wrote:
>
> Or you can use Trillian and use AIM, Yahoo, MSN, IRC and ICQ at the same time. You can get it at www.trillian.cc
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charlie Collins
> To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering
>
> How many Citizen's use Webcams with AIM, Yahoo, etc? If a lot do, we
> could regularly
> schedule AV Chat sessions. I was wondering because I was thinking about buying a
> iSight for my iMac. They cost about $150 and I don't want to waste my money.
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
>
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:00:24 -0400, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Quirites, et salve Flavi Vedi,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> >
> > > Here's an idea; perhaps (once we get a full-time Curator Araneum,
> > > that is), we could change the album civium somewhat. Include a
> > > section that says "Warning—any information you enter below will be
> > > visible to others" or somesuch. It would be completely voluntary,
> > > where citizens can put up more information about themselves; city,
> > > interests, etc.
> >
> > It's an excellent idea, and one I'll recommend to a Webmaster just as
> > soon as we have one.
> >
> > > Ah, yes, Roman Days. This past weekend was as fine a time as
> > > I've had in NR. There really is no substitute for pressing the
> > > flesh and meeting your fellow cives face-to-face.
> >
> > Yes, it was a lovely time. I'm pleased that you were able to join us.
> >
> > Valete Quirites,
> >
> > -- Marinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24891 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.D.

salve, Scaurus.

Thank you for your reply. I recognized some of it from an earlier
post, which I haven't forgotten, but I appreciate your crystallizing
your thoughts in this way. I would like to make a few comments.

You name a couple of serious hindrances to accepting a non-
practitioner's input into the evolution of the mos maiorum. One of
these is that "there is no logical stopping point", and that I want
to "recreat[ing]e Rome as it would be in the 21st century". Why
would I have joined an organization dedicated to recreating the
spirit of ancient Rome if I wanted to play in modern Rome? As you
say, we know exactly what Rome would be, because, well, it is.

The core issue is trust. You must trust that even a non-practitioner
such as myself means no ill towards the State; that my desire to be a
part of the recreation of the spirit of the Republic is as strong as
yours, if based on a different foundation. You may truly believe
that your position as a practitioner of the religio gives you a
stronger investment in Nova Roma; but it would be a grievous error to
assume that I have nothing invested either, or that I do not *want*
to invest anything, or even that any investment I make is somehow
less important to me than your investment is to you. How I invest in
the state may be completely different from how you do.

The existence of Nova Roma is for you the "substrate required for the
reconstruction of the Religio Romana". And I acknowledge and applaud
your position on that. I have often voiced my admiration for your
sincerity of belief and practice. For me, Nova Roma exists as the
substrate for a different set of hopes. Are they less important?
Are you willing to put yourself in judgement of another person's
ideals?

Again, the issue is trust. You describe the implications of my not
being allowed to practice small incidents of my faith if the roles
were reversed, and I understand the analogy completely. I have
expressed my belief that your faith is NOT "the quaint superstition
of some odd people", and I am somewhat taken aback that you would
portray me as holding that view. The mos maiorum is not, however, the
same to the religio as Christ is to Christianity; Christ is "the same
yesterday, today, and tomorrow."(The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews,
13:8) The mos maiorum evolves.

How can a non-practitioner gain the trust required for us to work
together? Would it take throwing incense on the altar of Concordia?
I would do it, if for no other reason than harmony in the State, and
I would do it with a clear conscience. You have emphasized action
over belief in the past; form over function. Does this apply in this
case?

vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24892 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Ave!

Excellent. I am glad we are not that far apart then. However, this discussion is extremely premature. I remember a time when Senator Q. Fabius was trying to lobby Bill Gates for a grant but that never came through, that would have been a terrific coup for us in trying to determine how NR would have developed. I also remember having lunch with Oppius Flaccus who was really looking forward to trying to develop an amusement park that would rival Disneyland but cater to Roman enthusaists. All of these options require billions of dollars. Right now I think its great that we have 20 acres of land in Texas (I believe its 20 acres). In the end whatever land we do end up possessing to meet the goal of 108 acres we will need to have a forum, administrative offices and religious offices to conduct public rituals.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 3:04 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Ave, Cornelius Sulla.

Believe it or not, I actually can see the same sort of thing; perhaps
we are more optimistic than Sicinius Drusus? This is why I return
consistently to a discussion of looking at the mos maiorum in a
concrete way: I actually can envision a time at which we will try to
order our lives around a "living" mos maiorum. Perhaps this is
foolish; I hope not. This also may explain why I, at least, have
shown a continuing concern for the development of laws and the
Constitution, perhaps to the annoyance of some who read this list. I
will continue to travel hopefully.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> You have reached an impasse that no one has been yet to provide an
answer. Will it be a theme park with administrative offices
fashioned as a Roman Disneyesque feel to it? Who knows...we are so
far from that point it is unnecessary at this juncture to even debate
it. Will the land be an island or on some mainland territory? Your
guess is as good as mine.
>
> My personal opinion is that it will be much like the Vatican, which
inspired the territory of NR in that it will have some administrative
offices, houses and serve as a tourist destination that would be kind
of like a Williamsburg, VA where people who are permanent residents
dress and act like the Romans of the Mid Republic. But again, that
is just my opinion and I am certain others will disagree with me.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:08 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
>
>
> G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae S.D.
>
> salve, Cornelius Sulla.
>
> But this does not answer my question: is this land or is it not
to be
> used, in conjunction with our stated "territorial" claim, to form
the
> center of a temporal state in which everything of the ancient
Roman
> State (Mid-Republic or otherwise) possible practical and will be
> recreated? Or will it be a Disney-esque theme park that we can
visit
> and in which we can run around togate? This piggy-backs on the
(as
> yet unanswered) question I posed to Scaurus: What exactly is the
> purpose of Nova Roma? Where do you see it going? What is the
> ultimate goal?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Cato
> >
> > It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess.
> Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is
where
> our initial purchases's were made.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
> >
> >
> > Salve, Cornelius Sulla.
> >
> > "Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
> > to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the
sovereign
> > state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world
> > capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded
in
> the
> > form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
> > governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."
> >
> > Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that,
sometime
> in
> > the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of
> Vatican
> > City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> > <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > > Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the
Declaration of
> > Nova Roma, located here:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
> > >
> > > Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
> > >
> > > We recognize the modern political realities which make the
> > restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore
we
> > limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at
least
> > equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City;
108
> > contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the
> admistration
> > of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum
Romanum.
> The
> > exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual
capital
> is
> > to be determined.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24893 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve

While our stated goal of a Sovereign state is not likely in our life times , if ever, another form of state is possible given time and money. A city-state, a municipality in the modern LEGAL sense.

WE CAN BUILD A ROMAN CITY!

If we were lucky enough to have the money to set up a "Disney" like park with a Roman theme why the hell would we not do it if it helped to bring in lots of money. Who knows maybe one of us will win the lottery someday and put some of the money to work for NR.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 2:51 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


The Stated goal is a forum, not a colony. It will contain governmental
buildings and Temples, NOT homes for Nova Romans.

The Goal isn't to have a separate little country with Nova Romans
dwelling there. It isn't a goal to have people actually living within
it's confines any more than it's a goal of the Catholic Church to have
all Catholics move to Vatican City.

I Have no doubts that some citizens will desire to dwell near the
Forum, but they will be subject to the Laws of the nation that the
Forum is located in just as Catholics living in the city of Roma are
subject to Italian Law rather than to laws of the Vatican State.

The Nova Roman Micronation was founded as a legal fiction set up to
serve the Religio's need to have a state to function as the religion
of. It's not a Roman colony project, not that such a thing would even
be possible given modern realities of nations carefully gaurding their
territory. Even the modest claim of a Forum that has the independace
of the Vatican is a very long term goal and one that is very unlikely
to be fulfilled in the foreseeable future, though we may meet a more
limited goal of a Forum that lacks territorial independance.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae S.D.
>
> salve, Cornelius Sulla.
>
> But this does not answer my question: is this land or is it not to be
> used, in conjunction with our stated "territorial" claim, to form the
> center of a temporal state in which everything of the ancient Roman
> State (Mid-Republic or otherwise) possible practical and will be
> recreated? Or will it be a Disney-esque theme park that we can visit
> and in which we can run around togate? This piggy-backs on the (as
> yet unanswered) question I posed to Scaurus: What exactly is the
> purpose of Nova Roma? Where do you see it going? What is the
> ultimate goal?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave Cato
> >
> > It will be bought, just like the land we currently do possess.
> Just look on Ebay for all the land that is for sale, that is where
> our initial purchases's were made.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
> >
> >
> > Salve, Cornelius Sulla.
> >
> > "Therefore we limit our active territorial claim
> > to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign
> > state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a world
> > capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in
> the
> > form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
> > governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined."
> >
> > Isn't this an outright "active territorial claim" that, sometime
> in
> > the future, an actual state, at "least equal" to the size of
> Vatican
> > City, is to be established? Am I reading it incorrectly?
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> > <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > > Cato, all you needed to do was to go back to the Declaration of
> > Nova Roma, located here:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html
> > >
> > > Specfically focusing on the following paragraph:
> > >
> > > We recognize the modern political realities which make the
> > restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
> > limit our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
> > equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
> > contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the
> admistration
> > of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum.
> The
> > exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital
> is
> > to be determined.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24894 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Webcams and AIM (was RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering)
I have a webcam to that can be used via yahoo.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Webcams and AIM (was RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering)


Salve Gn Cornelius Lentulus,



I've got a webcam that I've used with Yahoo (although I use AIM exclusively
at this point). If I can get it to work with AIM, I'll be happy to
participate.



Vale,



Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Pater Patriae



AIM: Flavius Vedius



-----Original Message-----
*From:* Charlie Collins [mailto:iguard@...]
*Sent:* Friday, June 18, 2004 7:46 PM
*To:* nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: National Gathering



How many Citizen's use Webcams with AIM, Yahoo, etc? If a lot do, we
could regularly
schedule AV Chat sessions. I was wondering because I was thinking about
buying a
iSight for my iMac. They cost about $150 and I don't want to waste my money.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24895 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: The Constitution, the Mos Maiorum, and green M&M's
Flavius Vedius Germanicus Novaromanii S.P.D.



Salvete omnes,



As most of you know, there has recently raged a spirited conversation on the nature and role of the Constitution in relation to the Mos Maiorum. I thought I�d share my thoughts on the subject.



For those who see a disconnect between the existence of a written Constitution and the ancient Mos Maiorum, I would point out two things. First of all, I�the author of the Constitution�would like nothing more than there to be no need for it. But that simply cannot happen for several good reasons. Secondly, it has always been the intention that our laws and Constitution will eventually be nothing less than a written version of the Mos Maiorum. The fact that they are not such a thing currently is perfectly intentional, but in no way intended to be permanent.



Why can�t we do away with the written Constitution? Well, on a macronational level, we exist as a non-profit corporation, incorporated in the State of Maine, USA, and as such we need to have a corporate charter and bylaws. Our Constitution and leges serve that macronational function, and thus are necessary. On a micronational level, I think it is a worthwhile goal, but on a practical level until we manage to somehow match the innate inculcation of Romanitas in our cives that Roma Antiqua enjoyed, we are stuck with having a system of personal behavior, political organization, and so forth. Perhaps some day, when we have a generation of Nova Romans who has been raised by a generation of Nova Romans raised as Nova Romans, we can match that. Maybe not. But I certainly wouldn�t want my daughter relying on her upbringing to have an innate understanding of what it is to be Roman. Her daughter, maybe. It remains to be seen.



Every lex that is passed, every decretrum, every edictum, should move us from our current circumstance towards the way things were in Roma Antiqua, unless it is absolutely necessary. We have, by circumstance, had to make a lot of compromises. Every time we make any change, unless we are compelled to do otherwise by macronational concerns, we should be gently nudging ourselves towards Roma Antiqua. I think many of our perceived conflicts are only questions of degree or method, rather than goal.



Okay, I confess, there�s nothing here about green M&M�s. After my last two long boring exegeses, I thought I should do something to make folks want to read this. �Always keep �em wanting more.� J



As always, I remain in service to the Republic,



Flavius Vedius Germanicus,

Pater Patriae



AIM: Flavius Vedius





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24896 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-18
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Salve Sulla

How were the 320 dissertations given to you and with what restrictions?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Ave!

I have tried, at least twice with very little success. I will try again. I have about, upon counting them about 320 dissertations dealing with everything from Roman politics, Religio (which surprisingly is a HUGE field) Mos Maiorum therory and such that would be such an asset to NR. I will email the authors again.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post them!

Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but have
been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack of a
response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of other
reasons.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
> online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the
full
> bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is
added
> before any text:
>
> "This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
> only. The text is copyright of its owner."
>
> Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization,
and
> we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the
full
> reference and link where we took it, not making it public
(although
> it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively
Kansas
> and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we
can
> veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher
will
> even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of
his
> potential customers.
>
> These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
publish
> them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
abandon
> the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very
source
> and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
> subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
> Republic needs desesperatly.
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > >
> > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > > consent to post this information here?
> >
> > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
> think
> > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
> bottom
> > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> >
> > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
> LLD.
> > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London.
John
> Murray.
> > > 1890.
> >
> > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
University
> of
> > Kansas history department website.)
> >
> > Valete Quirites,
> >
> > -- Marinus
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24897 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
As a student at the University of Phoneix...their library has a HUGE database on dissertations that I primarily utilize in writing my papers for my classes on education. (The dissertations are broken down by subject matter) and since I am going to be teaching history I did some preliminary searches on various historical subjects, Rome being one of them and whammo! There were hundreds, via proquest digitial dissertations. I was told by the college that to be safe I should get the consent of the author who wrote the dissertation, since they have their own specific agreement with Proquest. And I double checked with Scaurus and Fabius as well just to confirm as well since they have experience with teaching. So far I have not gotten a single response.

Here are just some of the titles:

The language of Plautus: His linguistic methods and their reflection of Roman society (Roman Republic)

Helmsmen of the state: An explication of Cicero's rhetorical theory (Roman Republic)

The Italians in the Second Punic War: Local conditions and the failure of the Hannibalic strategy in Italy (Roman Republic)

The many faces of Mars: The worship of Mars in the Roman Republic

Scipio Africanus in Spain: The key to the Second Punic War (Roman Republic)

Slips of the tongue: Catullus' oral aesthetic (Roman Republic, Gaius Valerius Catullus)

Oikeiosis, ratio, and natura: The Stoic challenge to Cicero's academism in 'De Finibus' and 'Natura Deorum' (Roman Republic)

Marriage practices, laws and social rules in India, China and Rome, 500BC--20AD (Roman Republic, Roman Empire)

Exile in the political language of the early Principate (Roman Republic, Roman Empire, Ovid, Seneca, Tiberius)

Images of Antony: An investigation of ancient testimonia about visual representations of the triumvir Mark Antony (Roman Republic)

Roman money in the late Republic

Strategies of self-representation in Cicero's 'De oratore' (Roman Republic)

For salvation's sake (hyper soterias): Ideology, society, and religion in the dedications for salvation from the Roman and Late Antique Near East, 100BC to AD800 (Roman Republic, Roman Empire)

Magic, love, and the limits of power: The figure of Medea in Latin love elegy (Tibullus, Propertius, Ovid, Roman Republic, Roman Empire)

Imaginary invasions of Italy: Fear propaganda, consensus, and imperialism, 200--146 B.C. (Roman Republic)

Accounting and recounting: Cato the Censor and the politics of culture (Roman Republic)

Rome and Judaea in transition

Sulla's public image and the politics of civic renewal (Roman Republic)

The image of Scipio Africanus, 235--201 BC: A resource for the study of Roman cultural change during the middle republic (Roman Republic)

Cicero's use of auctoritas and of the opposing advocate as means of persuasion in 'De finibus bonorum et malorum' (Roman Republic)

Remembering the dead: The liberti of late Republican municipalities and colonies of Italy (Roman Republic)

Now, I can get each one of these for free, as a student. But I cannot post them without the consent of the author, based on the info. And for the record each one of these averages between 150-300 pages long.

Vale,

Sulla




----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Salve Sulla

How were the 320 dissertations given to you and with what restrictions?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Ave!

I have tried, at least twice with very little success. I will try again. I have about, upon counting them about 320 dissertations dealing with everything from Roman politics, Religio (which surprisingly is a HUGE field) Mos Maiorum therory and such that would be such an asset to NR. I will email the authors again.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post them!

Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but have
been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack of a
response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of other
reasons.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
> online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the
full
> bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is
added
> before any text:
>
> "This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
> only. The text is copyright of its owner."
>
> Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization,
and
> we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the
full
> reference and link where we took it, not making it public
(although
> it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively
Kansas
> and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we
can
> veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher
will
> even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of
his
> potential customers.
>
> These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
publish
> them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
abandon
> the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very
source
> and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
> subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
> Republic needs desesperatly.
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > >
> > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > > consent to post this information here?
> >
> > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
> think
> > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
> bottom
> > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> >
> > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
> LLD.
> > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street, London.
John
> Murray.
> > > 1890.
> >
> > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
University
> of
> > Kansas history department website.)
> >
> > Valete Quirites,
> >
> > -- Marinus
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24898 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix G. Equitio Cato et Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete.

The mos maiorum cannot exist independently of the Religio Romana. The
Roman state cannot exists indepentdently of the Religio Romana. They are
are all inexorably intertwined and cannot be seperated with out
destroying them. Therfore any changes to the mos mairoum, must
necissarly also be changes to the Religio Romana. When a
non-practicioner suggests a modernistic alteration to the mos maiorum,
they are also effectively suggesting a change to the Religio. The mos
mairoum embodied in the Religio Romana is a compact between the
Quirities and the Gods and is *not* something that can be amended,
changed or altered on a whim, simply to suit the changing desires and
sensabilities of men. When the Roman Empire converted to Christianity,
the Quirities broke their contract with the Gods, cast aside the mos
maiorum for a foriegn religion, and turned thier backs upon the Pax
Deorum which signified the end of the mos mairoum. The the rebirth of
the Religio Romana is an attempt to correct that horrible mistake, to
try to undue the damage, pick up the pieces, return to the mos mairoum
and rebuild the Pax Deorum.

I mean no insult to you or any other Christian in Nova Roma, but please
you must try and understand how difficult is is to have adherants of the
very religion that abolished the Religio Romana, desecrated our Temples,
demonized our Gods, and replaced the mos maiorum with thier own
teachings, to suggest they should have a hand in its reconstruction or a
say in its affairs.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24899 From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: New file uploaded to Nova-Roma
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.

File : /Virgil's Aeneid
Uploaded by : tiberiusgaleriuspaulinus <spqr753@...>
Description : A Rhetorical Study

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/Virgil%27s%20Aeneid%20

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

tiberiusgaleriuspaulinus <spqr753@...>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24900 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix who said in part


"I mean no insult to you or any other Christian in Nova Roma, but please
you must try and understand how difficult is is to have adherents of the
very religion that abolished the Religio Romana, desecrated our Temples,
demonized our Gods, and replaced the mos maiorum with their own
teachings, to suggest they should have a hand in its reconstruction or a
say in its affairs."

TGP It would appear that Nova Roma needs to make something much clearer on the web site and quite possibly the application for "citizenship"

They should both read :

"If you are a practitioner of the Religio Romana you will be granted FULL citizenship but if not then we must ask you to accept a second class citizenship, which would include among other things being prohibited from standing for and being elected to political office or if this does not meet your understanding of Roman fair play then it would be best if you did not apply at all. Have a nice day."

It would appear to me that the gracious and sincere attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into Nova Roma has failed. It is just a matter of time before we are declared persona non grata and are either shown the door or we will start to leave on our own volition.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Roma locuta est. Causa finita est












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24901 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Why would we need to add that? I am Jewish, and I have been Consul twice, Censor (maybe twice) completed the entire Cursus Honorum. The only offices that I would not dare to apply for were offices of the Religio Romana. I do not practice the Religio but have defended it and have promoted it to the point that there is a Priest in Cornelia to do the necessary religious rituals and at one time the Gens Cornelia had 3 Pontiffs.

I think the only thing that should be clearer is that if you are a non-practitioner of the Religio you should not apply for the Religious positions.

That seems more than sufficient for me. To date I have never felt like I have had a second class citizenship and if I did I sure would not be offering my services and experiences as Censor Suffectus.

Any attempt to draw a conclusion that any attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into NR has failed is a complete falsehood. I am here to prove it. Senator Audens was also Consul and he is a Christian. I just think that we all just need to take a bit of a breather and let calmer heads prevail on this debate. And remember, Nova Roma's first religious argument was not about monotheists vs. pagans it was pagans vs. Roman Pagans.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Salve C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix who said in part


"I mean no insult to you or any other Christian in Nova Roma, but please
you must try and understand how difficult is is to have adherents of the
very religion that abolished the Religio Romana, desecrated our Temples,
demonized our Gods, and replaced the mos maiorum with their own
teachings, to suggest they should have a hand in its reconstruction or a
say in its affairs."

TGP It would appear that Nova Roma needs to make something much clearer on the web site and quite possibly the application for "citizenship"

They should both read :

"If you are a practitioner of the Religio Romana you will be granted FULL citizenship but if not then we must ask you to accept a second class citizenship, which would include among other things being prohibited from standing for and being elected to political office or if this does not meet your understanding of Roman fair play then it would be best if you did not apply at all. Have a nice day."

It would appear to me that the gracious and sincere attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into Nova Roma has failed. It is just a matter of time before we are declared persona non grata and are either shown the door or we will start to leave on our own volition.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Roma locuta est. Causa finita est












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24902 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Fw: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Why would we need to add that? I am Jewish, and I have been Consul twice, Censor (maybe twice) completed the entire Cursus Honorum. The only offices that I would not dare to apply for were offices of the Religio Romana. I do not practice the Religio but have defended it and have promoted it to the point that there is a Priest in Cornelia to do the necessary religious rituals and at one time the Gens Cornelia had 3 Pontiffs.

I think the only thing that should be clearer is that if you are a non-practitioner of the Religio you should not apply for the Religious positions.

That seems more than sufficient for me. To date I have never felt like I have had a second class citizenship and if I did I sure would not be offering my services and experiences as Censor Suffectus.

Any attempt to draw a conclusion that any attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into NR has failed is a complete falsehood. I am here to prove it. Senator Audens was also Consul and he is a Christian. I just think that we all just need to take a bit of a breather and let calmer heads prevail on this debate. And remember, Nova Roma's first religious argument was not about monotheists vs. pagans it was pagans vs. Roman Pagans.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


Salve C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix who said in part


"I mean no insult to you or any other Christian in Nova Roma, but please
you must try and understand how difficult is is to have adherents of the
very religion that abolished the Religio Romana, desecrated our Temples,
demonized our Gods, and replaced the mos maiorum with their own
teachings, to suggest they should have a hand in its reconstruction or a
say in its affairs."

TGP It would appear that Nova Roma needs to make something much clearer on the web site and quite possibly the application for "citizenship"

They should both read :

"If you are a practitioner of the Religio Romana you will be granted FULL citizenship but if not then we must ask you to accept a second class citizenship, which would include among other things being prohibited from standing for and being elected to political office or if this does not meet your understanding of Roman fair play then it would be best if you did not apply at all. Have a nice day."

It would appear to me that the gracious and sincere attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into Nova Roma has failed. It is just a matter of time before we are declared persona non grata and are either shown the door or we will start to leave on our own volition.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Roma locuta est. Causa finita est












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24903 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Salve,

I am currently doing the same thing with a large number of works,
including dissertations. Do you have a list of the ones you're doing
so perhaps we could avoid some duplication? Even better, if you'd
like to get a listing, perhaps others would volunteer (as I would)
to divide them up for permission requests since you have a much
larger number on tap than I do.
Currently, I'm putting up the ones I have gotten, and other open
sourced items, into the latest of pdf formats to include in any NR
reference base we get going. I do have a good setup here at home and
would happily take on some of that.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave!
>
> I have tried, at least twice with very little success. I will try
again. I have about, upon counting them about 320 dissertations
dealing with everything from Roman politics, Religio (which
surprisingly is a HUGE field) Mos Maiorum therory and such that
would be such an asset to NR. I will email the authors again.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:03 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post
them!
>
> Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
> hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but
have
> been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack
of a
> response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of
other
> reasons.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Sulla
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -

> Senate
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available
already
> > online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice
the
> full
> > bibliography of the text is given and the following clause
is
> added
> > before any text:
> >
> > "This text is provided here with cultural and educational
purposes
> > only. The text is copyright of its owner."
> >
> > Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit
organization,
> and
> > we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving
the
> full
> > reference and link where we took it, not making it public
> (although
> > it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus,
repectively
> Kansas
> > and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion,
we
> can
> > veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the
publisher
> will
> > even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full
of
> his
> > potential customers.
> >
> > These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
> publish
> > them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
> abandon
> > the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the
very
> source
> > and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its
studies, a
> > subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and
this
> > Republic needs desesperatly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus TRP
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> > <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Quirites,
> > >
> > > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > > school....did you happen to get the author's or
publisher's
> > > > consent to post this information here?
> > >
> > > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright
matters, I
> > think
> > > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way
at the
> > bottom
> > > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> > >
> > > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William
Smith,
> > LLD.
> > > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street,
London.
> John
> > Murray.
> > > > 1890.
> > >
> > > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available
online at
> > > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
> University
> > of
> > > Kansas history department website.)
> > >
> > > Valete Quirites,
> > >
> > > -- Marinus
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24904 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Equitius Cato, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Appollonius, the way you have described the (for
> lack of a batter
> term) " non-'practical and possible' " view is
> indeed what I mean.

If you agree with me, then it follows that I agree
with you, which is always pleasant news. I'm sorry I
didn't realise it from the previous messages you have
re-posted - I must admit that at the time you wrote
them originally I was rather busy with such things as
vote-counting, so I probably gave them insufficient attention.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24905 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Iulius Scaurus T. Galerio Paulino salutem dicit.

Salve, Pauline.

>It would appear to me that the gracious and sincere attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into Nova Roma has failed. It is just a matter of time before we are declared persona non grata and are either shown the door or we will start to leave on our own volition.
>

No one has suggested prohibiting non-practitioners from the Comitia or
from holding magistracies. I have no desire whatsoever to reverse the
compromise which affords non-practitioners to asend the cursus honorum
while performance of the required caerimoniae is delegated, nor does
Hadrianus. But is it so difficult to understand that there is
fundamentally a different kind and degree of personal investment in how
Nova Roma restores the mos maiorum for those for whom it is a
fundamental matter of religious importance? People talk so blithely
here about picking and choosing what of the mos maiorum to accept and
what to reject as if it had no more consequence than a matter of taste.
For a practitioner of the Religio such decisions are fraught with peril
and to be undertaken only at the greatest of need.

It is a legitimate fear that those who see Nova Roma as a political
role-playing game, or a Romanophile hobby, or a reenactment organisation
rather than the material substrate upon which the Religio Romana is
being reconstructed will be far more willing to cast aside things which
are absolutely essential to the cultural-religious fabric of Romanitas
and the Religio Romana. Would you as a devout Catholic be comfortable
at the idea of Wiccans being able to alter the deposit of the faith or
the Magisterium of the Church? I think not. That is precisely the
position in which practitioners are placed when non-practitioners
advocate discarding aspects of the mos maiorum. They do not understand,
by and large, that small concessions to their modern preferences can
have the most dire of consequences for how the Religio is reconstructed.

There is a far greater danger than Nova Roma will eventually be turned
into a place where so little of the mos maiorum is respected that
reconstruction of the Religio within it will become impossible than that
non-practitioners will be excluded from office. Why is it so difficult
to understand that modernist tinkering with the mos maiorum by those who
do not have a fundamental commitment to its absolute priority for the
reconstruction of the Religio Romana is something which practitioners
look upon with profound horror? How can we trust that those who little
understand the mos maiorum in the first place and who approach its
dismemberment as a mere matter of convenience will not cut the very core
of our religion away in the process? This isn't about hating Christians
or Jews or Christianity and Judaism, but about how absolutely vital the
full mos maiorum is to practitioners of the Religio. What is to the
non-practitioner often a quaint bit of useless antiquarianism easily
discarded can be the very soul of our faith as practitioners, cast aside
because those who do not share the world-view of the practitioner can
regard what is fundamental to us as mere inconvenience to them. I
shudder at the idea that a man who has decried the mos maiorum as
nothing but a nebulous, ambiguous threat to the clarity of law now is
trying to organise a commission to edit the mos maiorum into his
modernist, legalist world-view How much crucial to our faith will end
up on the cutting room floor? This is a terrible issue which cuts right
to the survival of NR as the material substrate on which the Religio
Publica and Privata are built.

I beg you, mi amice, to see the issue from our perspective for but a
little while. I beseech you and all other non-practitioner citizens to
search your hearts and recognise how you would feel if people who do not
share your religious convictions were to flippantly propose abandoning
things essential to your faith. If what Nova Roma restores of the mos
maiorum becomes a matter of political expediency or personal whim, the
Religio Romana in it will die again. This is a life and death issue for
practitioners. If the mos maiorum upon which the Religio Romana in Nova
Roma lives or falls is garotted by modernist preferences and whims, the
greatest tragedy in the history of the Western world will be once more
repeated. To prevent that I am prepared to sacrifice the last breath in
my body and I have every confidence that every practitioner of the
Religio in Nova Roma would willingly make the same sacrifice. It is we
who are threatened by ill-informed abandonment of the mos maiorum. It
is we who constantly see the Collegium Pontificum reviled by
non-practitioners. It is we who are constantly told that we must bend
to a modernity which is redolent with the death of our faith. By Pater
Quirinus whose Flamen I am I swear: may He take my life this every night
if non-practitioners of the Religio Romana in Nova Roma are under any
threat from practitioners of the Religio Romana. I doubt that there are
few among the non-practitioner modernists of Nova Roma who could take
such an oath regarding non-practitioners in good conscience and without
fear of perjury. And that doubt makes me weep for the future of the res
publica.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24906 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE: C
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> Excuse me your worship,

Thank you, but I am not entitled to such a title. If
you feel you would like to address me by a title,
you'll have to use the only one I have, which is
'rogator' - not a very glamourous one, I fear, but I
shall do my best to acquire more impressive ones in
the future so that you may address me by them if you
wish.

> I Fails to realize that you have the exalted postion
> of being able to
> make assertations with no citations, and that any
> who challenge Lord
> Cordus have to provide a doctorial thesis to rebuke
> his worship's
> uncited works.

This is not at all what I said, so it's not surprising
that you didn't realise it. What I said was that the
burden of proof is primarily upon the one who denies a
thing rather than on the one who asserts a thing.
That's just an unavoidable feature of conversation. If
I say, 'the sky is blue', or, 'the grass is pink', and
you wish to deny it, you say, 'no it's not, as you can
see by looking out of the window'. You see? This is
particularly the case when the original statement is
made by someone who might be assumed to know what he
is talking about, and I venture to suggest that
between the two of us I am the one better able to
claim that position (though of course that would
change were we to be joined by someone who has studied
Roman history at postgraduate level).

However, as I have said three times now, I shall, in
the interests of a constructive discussion, go beyond
what is required of me and produce evidence to support
my case. (Needless to say, I shall not produce
evidence to support what you think is my case, because
your apparent belief that I am quite unable to say
anything sensible is causing you to grossly
misrepresent and misunderstand what I have been
saying.) As I have also said three times now, I shall
do it on Monday or Tuesday and not before. As I have
said, I only have one book with me and it is not
terribly relevant.

Since, however, you seem unwilling to wait until then
for some sort of textual citation, I shall do my best
to grant your wish. Here, then, is one my favourite
passages from 'John G: The Authorised Biography of
John Gielgud' by Sheridan Morley. It concerns the time
when Gielgud was in California making the film of
Shakespear's 'Julius Caesar', in which he played
Cassius. I hope you enjoy it.

"... the first read-through was not easy, as Houseman
[John Houseman, the producer] recalled: 'Gielgud,
justly celebrated as the finest reader of verse on the
English-speaking stage, just sailed through the part
of Cassius with terrifying bravura. Mason [James
Mason, playing Brutus], both depressed and embarrassed
by the brilliance of his compatriot, chose to read the
entire role of Brutus with a pipe clenched firmly
between his teeth.'

Meanwhile, MGM were taking no chances at the
box-office: 'A Story Greater Even Than Ivanhoe' read
the posters and for John G, on this first Hollywood
assignment, the entire project was rich in local
eccentricities. 'All right, kids,' he once heard an
assistant director exhorting a crowd of recalcitrant
American extras, just before the filming of the Forum
scene. 'It's hot, it's Rome and here comes Julius!' On
another occasion, Gielgud recalled, 'I was waiting to
go on to the Rome street set with a whole menagerie of
sheep, dogs and pigeons, which had been brought in to
make the city look more lively... one of the pigeons
left its perch and began walking around the floor of
the studio, whereupon a hefty cowboy, who had
evidently been hired to look after the animals, dashed
up and yelled at the bird, 'Get back! Get back to your
place! Don't you want to work tomorrow?'"





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24907 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1350
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings again.

Senator Fortunatus said:

> > As I understand A Apollonius, I think he's
> overstating the censores'
> role as
> > moral guardians, but his proposal will make the
> censores *more*
> historical than
> > they are now.

You said:

> A Historic Censors office would be the election of
> two Consulars every
> 5 years for the purpose of conducting a Census, up
> dating the lists of
> Senators and Knights, and letting out any state
> contracts that Nova
> Roma might require, ie Web Hosting or insurance for
> that Tezas land.
>
> Once these tasks were compleated the Censors would
> conduct the Lustrum
> Ritual and the term of office would end.
...
> The most ahistoric aspect of the Nova Roma Censors
> office isn't
> dealing with new citizens, it's having Censors in
> office on a constant
> basis.

Yes indeed, and this is one of the things which I, in
support of Vedius Germanicus, have been proposing.

There is, of course, no rule saying that one can only
change one aspect of a given thing at once. If we are
to get rid of the most unhistorical element of the
censorship, we may as well get rid of the second most
unhistorical element also, namely, dealing with new
citizens. This too I am proposing.

Quite what you find objectionable in my proposals is
quite opaque to me, unless it can possibly be the fact
that the person who is making the proposals is myself.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24908 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.

Salve, Cato.

I am digesting your remarks and will respond at greater length shortly.
However, there are two points which immediately come to my mind and
upon which I would like to comment.

>Again, the issue is trust. You describe the implications of my not
>being allowed to practice small incidents of my faith if the roles
>were reversed, and I understand the analogy completely. I have
>expressed my belief that your faith is NOT "the quaint superstition
>of some odd people", and I am somewhat taken aback that you would
>portray me as holding that view. The mos maiorum is not, however, the
>same to the religio as Christ is to Christianity; Christ is "the same
>yesterday, today, and tomorrow."(The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews,
>13:8) The mos maiorum evolves.
>

I am surprised that a man as erudite in Christian doctrine as yourself
would take at face value that Pauline passage. The Christology of the
chuich and, therefore, the meaning of Christ has most certainly changed
over time. You need only compare the views of the Synoptic Gospels on
this question to the Christology of the Gospel of John to see the
plainest evidence possible that the understanding of who Jesus of
Nazareth was changed radically within the first hundred years of
Christianity. Paul may have been trying to make an ontological point,
but as history he was simply dead wrong. To accept the Pauline
scripture on this point as an historical observation is to reject a
century and a half of the most serious critical literature put forward
by Christian scholars on the history of the evolution of Christology.

>How can a non-practitioner gain the trust required for us to work
>together? Would it take throwing incense on the altar of Concordia?
>I would do it, if for no other reason than harmony in the State, and
>I would do it with a clear conscience. You have emphasized action
>over belief in the past; form over function. Does this apply in this
>case?
>

This is more complicated that you seem to think and I have, perhaps not
been sufficiently clear. Orthopraxis is fundamental to the Religio
while orthodoxy is not. However, within orthopraxis intentio matters to
at least some degree. You are validly orthopractically performing a
ritual of the Religio by sacrificing incense to Concordia only if you
believe that you are making a contractual agreement with something
outside yourself which is fundamentally different from merely casting
incense into a fire. The willing acceptance of contractual obligation
is the intentio which is necessarily conjoined by the form of the act to
make it orthopractic. You are becoming thereby the client of Concordia,
however you may construe Concordia. Is such a thing consistent with
Christianity's veneration of martyrs who refused precisely such an act?
If you can find it in your conscience to believe it so, then your
sacrifice would carry great meaning to me, but without it it is just a
meaningless gesture. From my study of the history of Christianity and
its doctrine, doing so would make you an apostate in a fundamental way.
Are you truly willing to do that?

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24909 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Same Old Axes Are Still Being Ground
A. Apollonius Cordus to his colleague Flavius Galerius
Aurelianus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> ... I believe that we should have an agreement
> for anyone who has been a
> citizen for longer than six months who uses the
> re-establishment of slavery,
> blood sport, or restriction of women's equality to
> defend or refute any
> argument/debate on any NR approved list should
> automatically be put on moderated status
> and/or have to pay a fine to the treasury to be
> removed from that status.
>
> Anyone who actually uses such tactics is obviously
> not ready to be allowed
> unrestricted access to the lists. While slavery may
> still exist in some
> portions of the globe, along with blood sports and
> women as property, it doesn't
> exist in Nova Roma and (hopefully) never will. It
> is an enormous disappointment
> to many citizens that normally rational, intelligent
> humans would use such
> arguments to defend/refute points of difference. It
> shows a lack of imagination
> and a loss of touch with what most humans would call
> reality.

I can only take this as a public and deliberate
reprimand to myself, and I must say that it saddens me
greatly coming from you, since I regard you with great
respect. I shall not explain for third time why the
issue of slavery is, in the context in which I have
been discussing it, thoroughly relevant and in no way
a straw man or any other debating tactic. If there had
been another issue which would have provided as good
an illustration of the point I wished to make, I would
have used it in preference, but I could think of none
which served the purpose so well. I was also extremely
careful to point out at the time that my bringing it
up was not an example of intellectual laziness and was
meant as a serious logical argument, which indeed it
was.

These, then, are the two causes of my sadness. The
first is that you clearly have so little regard for
me, who have such high regard for you, that you
believe, despite my assurances to the contrary, that
my use of the issue of slavery was nothing but a
shabby point-scoring tactic and an exercise in
intellectual sloth or incompetence. The second is that
you have delivered a blow to my previously high
estimation of your own intellectual rigour by showing
yourself unable or unwilling to engage with my
arguments on their own merits.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24910 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
A. Apollonius Cordus to Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Father of the Nation, and to all citizens and
peregrines, greetings.

Thank you for laying out the detail of your proposals.
Some details differ slightly from what I had in mind
(as you know from our private correspondence), but the
plan would be a considerable improvement upon the
current set-up, and I thoroughly support it.

If I might suggest an addition, it would be that the
rogatores (of the new kind, as they would be in your
proposal) be supervised in their activities by the
praetors, since they would be dealing with
confidential information such as names and addresses.
Perhaps it would even be possible to use an electronic
application-processing system which would allow
confidential details to be witheld from the rogatores
(I'm not a computer man, so I don't know whether such
a thing is feasible).





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24911 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
A. Apollonius Cordus to his friend the Aedile, Flamen,
and Pontiff C. Iulius Scaurus, and to all citizens and
peregrines, greetings.

I hope you don't mind me joining in here.

> No one has suggested prohibiting non-practitioners
> from the Comitia or
> from holding magistracies. I have no desire
> whatsoever to reverse the
> compromise which affords non-practitioners to asend
> the cursus honorum
> while performance of the required caerimoniae is
> delegated, nor does
> Hadrianus.

This puzzles me slightly. You said in a previous
message today that you resist deviation from the mos
maiorum except where it is literally impossible to do
otherwise. Granted, non-practitioners (if we use that
term strictly to mean those who did not actively
worship the gods privately - this is the definition I
offered some time ago and is the only definition i
have ever seen on this list) were not excluded from
office, but they were also permitted to perform the
required ceremonies. I do not see why it would be
literally impossible to do this in Nova Roma, though I
can indeed understand (I do not necessarily agree) why
you would consider such deviation from the mos maiorum
desirable. Or have I misunderstood historical
practice?

> ... But is it so difficult to understand
> that there is
> fundamentally a different kind and degree of
> personal investment in how
> Nova Roma restores the mos maiorum for those for
> whom it is a
> fundamental matter of religious importance? People
> talk so blithely
> here about picking and choosing what of the mos
> maiorum to accept and
> what to reject as if it had no more consequence than
> a matter of taste.

I cannot speak for Cato, but I think I do understand
this. I also understand how difficult it is for people
whose dedication and personal investment in the
restoration of the mos maiorum in Nova Roma is a
matter of spiritual necessity to understand that it is
possible for others to have an equally strong
dedication and and equally deep investment in Nova
Roma's restoration of the mos maiorum which is of a
nature not spiritual but emotional and intellectual.
This is similar to a problem I often encounter with
Christians: because of the inextricability of morality
and faith in their religion, they often find it
impossible to understand how anyone can have any sort
of moral code without deriving it from religion. Now,
you and I know that such a thing is perfectly
possible, for there was no moral code inherent in the
religio Romana, which was (as you explain below) based
more on contract, reciprocity, and enlightened
self-interest. But what I am trying to explain is
that, just as it is possible to be moral without
religion, it is possible to be dedicated to the
restoration of the mos maiorum in Nova Roma without
religion.

> It is a legitimate fear that those who see Nova Roma
> as a political
> role-playing game, or a Romanophile hobby, or a
> reenactment organisation
> rather than the material substrate upon which the
> Religio Romana is
> being reconstructed will be far more willing to cast
> aside things which
> are absolutely essential to the cultural-religious
> fabric of Romanitas
> and the Religio Romana.

It is, I agree, a legitimate fear, and one which
practitioners ought to voice strongly when any
discussion is devoted to the possibility of deviating
from the mos maiorum in any particular respect. I know
you yourself take great pains to point out any
religious implications in any proposed change, and so
do others including Modius Athanasius. But it would be
a step too far to simply suggest (as I think you are
close to doing, whether intentionally or not) that
non-pracitioners ought to be considered unqualified
and undeserving to comment on possible deviations from
the mos maiorum.

> ... That
> is precisely the
> position in which practitioners are placed when
> non-practitioners
> advocate discarding aspects of the mos maiorum.
> They do not understand,
> by and large, that small concessions to their modern
> preferences can
> have the most dire of consequences for how the
> Religio is reconstructed.

Then I would respectfully suggest that the correct
response of practitioners is to point out those dire
consequences, rather than to imply that
non-practitioners have no right to be discussing such
things in the first place.

> ... How can we trust
> that those who little
> understand the mos maiorum in the first place and
> who approach its
> dismemberment as a mere matter of convenience will
> not cut the very core
> of our religion away in the process?

Here, my friend, I fear you have been misled by a
prejudice. You have made the unspoken assumption that
no one who does not practice the religio can properly
understand the mos maiorum (for I don't think in the
context there can be any doubt that your 'those'
refers to non-practitioners). I have met and studied
under many eminent scholars whose knowledge and
understanding of the mos maiorum is unquestionable,
but to my knowledge not a single one of them
worshipped the Roman gods. I do not pretend to have as
great knowledge or understanding as they, or as you,
but I have some, and it slowly grows and deepens.
There are many other non-practitioners who can say the
same. And equally there are practitioners who have
considerably less than you and even less than I. There
is absolutely no reason to make the assumption or the
implication that pracitioners are necessarily or even
probably more knowledgeable about or understanding of
the mos maiorum, and such implications when made in
public do nothing but encourage unfounded prejudice
against non-practitioners.

> I beg you, mi amice, to see the issue from our
> perspective for but a
> little while. I beseech you and all other
> non-practitioner citizens to
> search your hearts and recognise how you would feel
> if people who do not
> share your religious convictions were to flippantly
> propose abandoning
> things essential to your faith.

I wish I could do as you request, but I have no
religious faith, so it is difficult. I make a
counter-request that you and others not forget the
existence of people like me in discussions like these.

> ... By Pater
> Quirinus whose Flamen I am I swear: may He take my
> life this every night
> if non-practitioners of the Religio Romana in Nova
> Roma are under any
> threat from practitioners of the Religio Romana. I
> doubt that there are
> few among the non-practitioner modernists of Nova
> Roma who could take
> such an oath regarding non-practitioners in good
> conscience and without
> fear of perjury.

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'under threat'.
What threat is it that practitioners are under that
non-practitioners are not? If I were to guess, I
should say you mean that pracitioners stand to lose a
community and a culture which supports, facilitates,
and underpins their faith, whereas no amount of
deviation from the mos maiorum would similarly
undermine the faith of non-practitioners. If that is
what you mean, then I agree. And if by 'such an oath'
you mean the very same oath, then I would quite
happily take it, for I do accept that nothing
practitioners can do can undermine the foundations of
the religious beliefs or practices of
non-practitioners.

If you mean, though, that non-practitioners are under
absolutely no threat whatsoever from practitioners, I
cannot swear to it, because I believe that
non-practitioners are under threat of social
exclusion, discrimination, and prejudicial treatment.
To be sure, the threat is not a conscious one on the
part of practitioners, and to be sure, the threat is
not as great nor the possible results as harmful to
non-practitioners as the threat and the possible
consequences to practitioners - it is far worse to
have ones faith undermined and to be left unable to
practice it than to be ostracised or poorly treated by
a particular social group or community. But the threat
is there, and I cannot swear that it is not.

Both groups stand to lose in the current climate,
though practitioners stand to lose more. I do not
believe that either group need lose. I strive to
protect both groups from such threats. If I seem to
spend more time making the case for non-practitioners
and criticising the behaviour by practitioners which
threatens to harm them, it is because I am not
qualified to speak on behalf of practitioners, and
because there are prominent and able men already
making the case for practitioners, yourself prominent
among them, whereas I see at the moment only a very
few non-practitioners making the case for their side
(and this, given their numerical strength, ought
perhaps to tell you that the climate is not one which
non-practitioners feel entirely free to make their
case without fear of attack). But this does not mean
that I am not worried about the threat to
practitioners and to the religio, and it troubles me
that you seem to assume (I hope it is a false seeming)
that one who voices concerns about the position of
non-practitioners cannot also be sympathetic to the
concerns of practitioners. It is perfectly possible to
be one both sides at once, for the sides are not
fundamentally opposed, and that is what we must all
realise if we are not to waste our energies fighting
one another.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24912 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Voting in the Comitia Centuriata
The Rogator A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens,
greetings.

Voting begins in two days' time, and I want to explain
to you know how it will work.

At one minute past midnight, Roman time, on the 21st
of June (Monday), citizens who belong to century
number 9 will be able to vote, and *only* those
citizens. For 48 hours from that time, only members of
century number 9 will be able to vote.

To check whether you are in century number IX, check
the list at this address:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/century?century=9

At one minute past midnight, Roman time, on the 23rd
of June (Wednesday), citizens who belong to centuries
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 will be
able to vote. To find out whether you are in one of
these centuries, go to your album civium page, where
it is listed together with your century points.
Members of century number 9 who have not yet voted
will still be able to vote during this period. No
other centuries will be able to vote.

At one minute past midnight, Roman time, on the 25th
of June (Friday), all citizens will be able to vote.
Voting will continue until the end of the 30th of June
(Wednesday).

You can find out what time it is in Roman time by
looking at the main page of the website.

I hope this is all fairly clear. If you have any
questions or uncertainties, please do not hesitate to
contact me privately.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24913 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve G. Iulius Scaurus who said in part


"This is a terrible issue which cuts right to the survival of NR as the material substrate on which the Religio Publica and Privata are built."

As the mos maiorum is of vital importance to the revival of the Religio I will defer to the practitioners on how it is to be restored.

As to oath taking I have take the Nova Roma magistrates oath on three separate occasions and stand by it.

Pax

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus




----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Rose
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum


G. Iulius Scaurus T. Galerio Paulino salutem dicit.

Salve, Pauline.

>It would appear to me that the gracious and sincere attempt to accommodate non-practitioners into Nova Roma has failed. It is just a matter of time before we are declared persona non grata and are either shown the door or we will start to leave on our own volition.
>

No one has suggested prohibiting non-practitioners from the Comitia or
from holding magistracies. I have no desire whatsoever to reverse the
compromise which affords non-practitioners to asend the cursus honorum
while performance of the required caerimoniae is delegated, nor does
Hadrianus. But is it so difficult to understand that there is
fundamentally a different kind and degree of personal investment in how
Nova Roma restores the mos maiorum for those for whom it is a
fundamental matter of religious importance? People talk so blithely
here about picking and choosing what of the mos maiorum to accept and
what to reject as if it had no more consequence than a matter of taste.
For a practitioner of the Religio such decisions are fraught with peril
and to be undertaken only at the greatest of need.

It is a legitimate fear that those who see Nova Roma as a political
role-playing game, or a Romanophile hobby, or a reenactment organisation
rather than the material substrate upon which the Religio Romana is
being reconstructed will be far more willing to cast aside things which
are absolutely essential to the cultural-religious fabric of Romanitas
and the Religio Romana. Would you as a devout Catholic be comfortable
at the idea of Wiccans being able to alter the deposit of the faith or
the Magisterium of the Church? I think not. That is precisely the
position in which practitioners are placed when non-practitioners
advocate discarding aspects of the mos maiorum. They do not understand,
by and large, that small concessions to their modern preferences can
have the most dire of consequences for how the Religio is reconstructed.

There is a far greater danger than Nova Roma will eventually be turned
into a place where so little of the mos maiorum is respected that
reconstruction of the Religio within it will become impossible than that
non-practitioners will be excluded from office. Why is it so difficult
to understand that modernist tinkering with the mos maiorum by those who
do not have a fundamental commitment to its absolute priority for the
reconstruction of the Religio Romana is something which practitioners
look upon with profound horror? How can we trust that those who little
understand the mos maiorum in the first place and who approach its
dismemberment as a mere matter of convenience will not cut the very core
of our religion away in the process? This isn't about hating Christians
or Jews or Christianity and Judaism, but about how absolutely vital the
full mos maiorum is to practitioners of the Religio. What is to the
non-practitioner often a quaint bit of useless antiquarianism easily
discarded can be the very soul of our faith as practitioners, cast aside
because those who do not share the world-view of the practitioner can
regard what is fundamental to us as mere inconvenience to them. I
shudder at the idea that a man who has decried the mos maiorum as
nothing but a nebulous, ambiguous threat to the clarity of law now is
trying to organise a commission to edit the mos maiorum into his
modernist, legalist world-view How much crucial to our faith will end
up on the cutting room floor? This is a terrible issue which cuts right
to the survival of NR as the material substrate on which the Religio
Publica and Privata are built.

I beg you, mi amice, to see the issue from our perspective for but a
little while. I beseech you and all other non-practitioner citizens to
search your hearts and recognise how you would feel if people who do not
share your religious convictions were to flippantly propose abandoning
things essential to your faith. If what Nova Roma restores of the mos
maiorum becomes a matter of political expediency or personal whim, the
Religio Romana in it will die again. This is a life and death issue for
practitioners. If the mos maiorum upon which the Religio Romana in Nova
Roma lives or falls is garotted by modernist preferences and whims, the
greatest tragedy in the history of the Western world will be once more
repeated. To prevent that I am prepared to sacrifice the last breath in
my body and I have every confidence that every practitioner of the
Religio in Nova Roma would willingly make the same sacrifice. It is we
who are threatened by ill-informed abandonment of the mos maiorum. It
is we who constantly see the Collegium Pontificum reviled by
non-practitioners. It is we who are constantly told that we must bend
to a modernity which is redolent with the death of our faith. By Pater
Quirinus whose Flamen I am I swear: may He take my life this every night
if non-practitioners of the Religio Romana in Nova Roma are under any
threat from practitioners of the Religio Romana. I doubt that there are
few among the non-practitioner modernists of Nova Roma who could take
such an oath regarding non-practitioners in good conscience and without
fear of perjury. And that doubt makes me weep for the future of the res
publica.

Vale.

Scaurus

>
>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24914 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve

The issue is simple. Leaving to one side people such as Cato - who I
believe implicitly believe what he says and does not hide an agenda -
the Mos Maiorum has become a club with which to beat either the
practitioners of the Religio or those that could be loosely described
as "conservatives". Every call for a move towards the Mos is
countered with howls of either derision or protest. Those, like
myself, who see no point in pursuing the enterprise known as Nova
Roma without both a commitment to and some activity in support of the
Mos, are frequently painted as somehow the abusers of liberty, agents
of some "secret society" of wicked old priests intent on robbing
everyone of their liberties.

The Mos has been made the political football it is by a select group
of "modernists" who elevate the Nova Roman constitution to the height
of some proto-deity. Anyone who suggests a move towards the Mos is
thus seen as undermining the constitution somehow, and is of course
thus un-democratic.

Un-democratic?? Democratic?? How on earth can you have what the 21st
century sees as democracy in an organization based around the
structure of republican Rome? You can't, unless you subvert the whole
structure that it is predicated on and replace it with a "democratic"
structure supported by concepts and ideals drawn straight from the
last 200 years.

The Mos is the single biggest obstacle to these people establishing
their wishy washy version of Rome that convienantly by-passes
anything that clashes with their modern views on political
structures, their own macronational politics and for many their
religious beliefs. Therefore these people have determined that the
Mos has to be denegrated and those that support a return to it
painted as tyrants.

As for all these flamboyant and dramatic "Well I'll leave if I am not
welcome" speeches from those who do not practice the Religio, all I
can say is that if you wish to hurl yourself off the highest building
in Nova Roma into oblivion - that is your choice. You are not being
pushed or shoved out. What is expected though is a loyalty to the
principles of Rome of antiquity and loyalty to the goal of returning
the Mos to Nova Roma.

As long as a certain determined little clique of "modernists"
continue to hi-jack the issue of the Mos for their own ends, this
will continue to be a running sore in Nova Roma.

Vale
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24915 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> If I might suggest an addition, it would be that the
> rogatores (of the new kind, as they would be in your
> proposal) be supervised in their activities by the
> praetors, since they would be dealing with
> confidential information such as names and addresses.
> Perhaps it would even be possible to use an electronic
> application-processing system which would allow
> confidential details to be witheld from the rogatores
> (I'm not a computer man, so I don't know whether such
> a thing is feasible).

Salve,

Another thing to consider, who will issue the confidential voter
codes? It certainly can not be the Rogators as that would mean the
Rogators have access not only to the ballots but to whom those
ballots belonged as well.

On a side note, since we are talking about restructuring job
descriptions, the task of list moderation probably should be
transfered to the Aediles as they were historically in charge of
maintaining Rome's infrastructure and for now the main list is as
close to an infrastructure as Nova Roma has. This also would remove
the conflict of interest inherent in the Praetor's having to act as
both "police" and "judiciary" where list moderation is concerned.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24916 From: Marcus Traianus Valerius Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Sulla,

Welcome back, and I would be very interested in seeing the ones on Religo. If you can not post them to the main area could you share them privately?

Ita di deaque faxint!
Marcus Traianus Valerius

----------------------------------------------------------
Gens Traiana Home Page
www.geocities.com/genstraiana

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Ave!

I have tried, at least twice with very little success. I will try again. I have about, upon counting them about 320 dissertations dealing with everything from Roman politics, Religio (which surprisingly is a HUGE field) Mos Maiorum therory and such that would be such an asset to NR. I will email the authors again.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post them!

Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but have
been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack of a
response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of other
reasons.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available already
> online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice the
full
> bibliography of the text is given and the following clause is
added
> before any text:
>
> "This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
> only. The text is copyright of its owner."
>
> Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit organization,
and
> we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving the
full
> reference and link where we took it, not making it public
(although
> it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus, repectively
Kansas
> and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion, we
can
> veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the publisher
will
> even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full of
his
> potential customers.
>
> These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
publish
> them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
abandon
> the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the very
source
> and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its studies, a
> subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and this
> Republic needs desesperatly.
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > >
> > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > school....did you happen to get the author's or publisher's
> > > consent to post this information here?
> >
> > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright matters, I
> think
> > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way at the
> bottom
> > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> >
> > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William Smith,
> LLD.
> > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin.. Albemarle Street, London.
John
> Murray.
> > > 1890.
> >
> > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available online at
> > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
University
> of
> > Kansas history department website.)
> >
> > Valete Quirites,
> >
> > -- Marinus
>
>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24917 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: The Strawman Argument.
Salvete Omnes,

Just exactly what does this term mean? Here is Merriam-Webster's
definition of a strawman.

Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set
up only to be easily confuted.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=strawman&x=0&y=0

This fits some arguments that are posted on this forum from time to
time, the most common being a claim that some people wish to
reintroduce slavery.

So far not one single person has made a direct call for the
introduction of slavery into Nova Roma. Then what about an indirect
call for it's introduction? That hasn't been made either, it has been
explained many times that advocating Roman traditions whenever
possible excludes slavery because it's illegal everywhere Nova Roma
exists and therefore not possible.

So we have a situation where no one has made a direct or an indirect
call for the introduction of slavery into Nova Roma. That certainly
makes the point an "imaginary opposition", and there is no doubt that
it's being drug out for the purpose of easily confuting it.

Strawmen are typically drug out when someone is unable to win a debate
on the topic being discussed. Rather than attempting to counter the
opposition's points a strawman argument that the opposition has never
called for is bought up for the purpose of deflecting attention away
from the arguments that the person who introduced the strawman was
unable to win.

There is also a darker side to the use of a strawman argument. Often
there is an attempt to introduce a strawman that is morally
questionable in an effort to attack the reputation of the person whom
the strawman argument is directed against. In these cases the strawman
argument is also an Ad Hominem attack.

There is no doubt that the sudden introduction of slavery into a
debate is intended as an Ad Hominem attack.

Untill such time as someone calls for the introduction of Slavery, for
the repeal of any rights Women have in Nova Roma, For the introduction
of Bloodsports, introduction of these topics into a debate that didn't
touch on them are and will remain strawmen arguments that are being
made as Ad Hominem attacks.

From now on whenever this tactic is used against me rather than
wasting time refuting it I will point out exactly what that person is
attempting to do.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex et Senator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24918 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Cassius Calvus, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Another thing to consider, who will issue the
> confidential voter
> codes? It certainly can not be the Rogators as that
> would mean the
> Rogators have access not only to the ballots but to
> whom those
> ballots belonged as well.

That's a good point. I suppose the rogators (as Vedius
Germanicus proposes to re-define them) would issue the
codes and the custodies (who under Germanicus'
proposal would now be responsible for the job which
the rogators do at the moment) would count the
ballots.

> On a side note, since we are talking about
> restructuring job
> descriptions, the task of list moderation probably
> should be
> transfered to the Aediles as they were historically
> in charge of
> maintaining Rome's infrastructure and for now the
> main list is as
> close to an infrastructure as Nova Roma has. This
> also would remove
> the conflict of interest inherent in the Praetor's
> having to act as
> both "police" and "judiciary" where list moderation
> is concerned.

That's another nice idea which I'd support (though
frankly I'd prefer to scrap moderation altogether, or
as far as possible while still protecting us from
getting in trouble with Yahoo), especially since it
looks as though the praetors' time will be
increasingly taken up with their core historical
duties as judicial magistrates in future years.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24919 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate
Sure I can post the titles, authors, colleges and such and we could divide up the work to make it easier. Tomrrow I will begin by posting the first 100 up here.

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: aoctaviaindagatrix
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 1:02 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV - Senate


Salve,

I am currently doing the same thing with a large number of works,
including dissertations. Do you have a list of the ones you're doing
so perhaps we could avoid some duplication? Even better, if you'd
like to get a listing, perhaps others would volunteer (as I would)
to divide them up for permission requests since you have a much
larger number on tap than I do.
Currently, I'm putting up the ones I have gotten, and other open
sourced items, into the latest of pdf formats to include in any NR
reference base we get going. I do have a good setup here at home and
would happily take on some of that.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave!
>
> I have tried, at least twice with very little success. I will try
again. I have about, upon counting them about 320 dissertations
dealing with everything from Roman politics, Religio (which
surprisingly is a HUGE field) Mos Maiorum therory and such that
would be such an asset to NR. I will email the authors again.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:03 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -
Senate
>
>
> Please, talk to the owners about our cultural purposes, and post
them!
>
> Or at least - send to me!!! :) I´d love read them :)
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I have literally
> hundreds of dissertations that I would LOVE to post here but
have
> been unable to get approval from the authors either due to lack
of a
> response, email address is no longer valid, or a variety of
other
> reasons.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Sulla
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:49 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Articles on Roman Government - XiV -

> Senate
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Yes, I´ve checked the copyright. The text are available
already
> > online at www.perseus.org for educational purposes. Notice
the
> full
> > bibliography of the text is given and the following clause
is
> added
> > before any text:
> >
> > "This text is provided here with cultural and educational
purposes
> > only. The text is copyright of its owner."
> >
> > Since we are a cultural and educational non-profit
organization,
> and
> > we are taking no publishing or profit with the text, giving
the
> full
> > reference and link where we took it, not making it public
> (although
> > it is already public at Lacus Curtius and Perseus,
repectively
> Kansas
> > and Tufts), since it is on own internal list of discussion,
we
> can
> > veiculate them to use in our studies here, alas, the
publisher
> will
> > even stimulate the ´marketing´ for his books on a place full
of
> his
> > potential customers.
> >
> > These texts are a window open to fresh air to this list, I
> publish
> > them to pay a promise to patroness Ceres, making a time to
> abandon
> > the petty political struggle of everyday, to swin on the
very
> source
> > and inspiration of Nova Roma, the Ancient Rome and its
studies, a
> > subject which mostly of us are hungry and thrusty for, and
this
> > Republic needs desesperatly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Vale bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus TRP
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> > <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Quirites,
> > >
> > > L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ave Lucius Arminius,
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate the text, but as someone who is currently in
> > > > school....did you happen to get the author's or
publisher's
> > > > consent to post this information here?
> > >
> > > While I share Senator Sulla's concern for copyright
matters, I
> > think
> > > we're safe in this instance. If you'll look all the way
at the
> > bottom
> > > of Faustus' post, you'll see:
> > >
> > > > A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. William
Smith,
> > LLD.
> > > > William Wayte. G. E. Marindin. Albemarle Street,
London.
> John
> > Murray.
> > > > 1890.
> > >
> > > The complete text of Smith's Dictionary is available
online at
> > > http://tinyurl.com/2z5dy (which will connect you to the
> University
> > of
> > > Kansas history department website.)
> > >
> > > Valete Quirites,
> > >
> > > -- Marinus
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24920 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
A. Apollonius Cordus to the Senator & Pontiff L.
Sicinius Drusus, and to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> So far not one single person has made a direct call
> for the
> introduction of slavery into Nova Roma. Then what
> about an indirect
> call for it's introduction? That hasn't been made
> either, it has been
> explained many times that advocating Roman
> traditions whenever
> possible excludes slavery because it's illegal
> everywhere Nova Roma
> exists and therefore not possible.

That's absolutely true, and if someone were to suggest
that you (or anyone else) has either explicitly or
implictly called for the reintroduction of slavery
would be quite dishonest, and would indeed be to
introduce a straw-man argument.

It does not follow from this that any mention of
slavery must necessarily constitute a straw-man
argument, which is what you sometimes seem to suggest
(and what your sometime sparring-partner Galerius
Aurelianus seems also to believe, I'm sad to say).

You say that slavery is "illegal everywhere Nova Roma
exists and therefore not possible". This is quite
true, and explains why it is likely that we will never
hear anyone in Nova Roma advocating its
reintroduction. What I have been trying to point out,
however, is that although we all agree that slavery
ought not to be reintroduced, some people believe it
for one reason and some for another. This is why it is
a good illustration of my point. Some people oppose
the reintroduction of slavery because it is impossible
and impractical. Others oppose it because it is wrong.
We all oppose it. I have never said that you or anyone
else does not oppose it. What I have said is that,
according to your own statements, you would not oppose
it if it were possible and practical. This follows
inevitably from the logic of your own statements. Is
it not true?

Please observe that this is by no means an attempt to
cast aspertions on your character, or that of anyone
else. I praise anyone who opposes slavery, whatever
his reason for opposing it. My desire is simply to
illustrate the difference between you and me on the
issue of deviation from the mos maiorum: you oppose
deviation except where it is impossible or impractical
to do otherwise, as you yourself have said several
times. Therefore anything which the Romans did and
which it is possible and practical for us to do, you
think we ought to do. Is that not correct? The Romans
had slaves, but it is not possible or practical for us
to have slaves, so you oppose slavery, yes? But if it
were possible and practical for us to have slaves, you
would not oppose it. Is that not true?

I assure you that anyone who is prepared to say in
this Forum that he opposes slavery because it is
impossible and impractical and would not oppose it if
it were possible and practical will not lose my
respect if he has it alread: after all, he will simply
be expressing a thoroughly coherent and understandable
intellectual position.

I would, however, have my respect for a person
diminished if he were to tell me that he believes we
ought to do as the Romans did wherever it is possible
and practical to do so, but that he also believes we
ought not to allow slavery even if it were possible
and practical. For that person will be showing himself
either unable to follow a simple process of logical
reasoning or, more likely, unwilling to face up to the
logical consequences of his own beliefs.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24921 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Salve Corde,

The Strawman Argument is a favourite tool of people who seek to
deflect the focus from their beliefs. Teenagers frequently adopt this
technique to avoid the questions of parents, especially when they
have something to hide. Deflection and diffusion are terms that can
equally be applied. It is a cheap trick of politicians the world over.

Vale
Gn. Iulius Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24922 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> What I have said is that,
> according to your own statements, you would not oppose
> it if it were possible and practical. This follows
> inevitably from the logic of your own statements. Is
> it not true?

Don't try to put words in my mouth.

What I have said is that the topic is pointless, it's as meaningless
as discussing plans for Nova Roma's Martian Colony.

I Have also stated that an attempt to legalize slavery wouldn't
accomplish anything other than blackening Nova Roma's reputation and
that an attempt to pass a lex against it would be nothing more than
mindless feelgoodism. Both are a waste of time because we have no
control over the subject, being pre-emptied by Macronational Laws that
aren't going to be changed in the foreseeable future.

I Have already made these statements on the postion many times,
attempting to tie it to me or others who have made similar statements
IS an exercise in Strawman and Ad Hominem arguments.

Drusus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24923 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 9:58 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Strawman Argument.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> What I have said is that,
> according to your own statements, you would not oppose
> it if it were possible and practical. This follows
> inevitably from the logic of your own statements. Is
> it not true?

Don't try to put words in my mouth.

What I have said is that the topic is pointless, it's as meaningless
as discussing plans for Nova Roma's Martian Colony.

I thought the Roman Martian Colony was something the SVR was discussion, not Nova Roma. Please, please let me be correct that that was the case.
I Have also stated that an attempt to legalize slavery wouldn't
accomplish anything other than blackening Nova Roma's reputation and
that an attempt to pass a lex against it would be nothing more than
mindless feelgoodism. Both are a waste of time because we have no
control over the subject, being pre-emptied by Macronational Laws that
aren't going to be changed in the foreseeable future.

Thats true he has said that numerous times throughout the years, you can check the archieves for it.
Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


I Have already made these statements on the postion many times,
attempting to tie it to me or others who have made similar statements
IS an exercise in Strawman and Ad Hominem arguments.

Drusus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24924 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro S.D.

salve, Scaurus.

I look forward to your responses. However, I can't resist quick
notes on these two particulars :-)


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Rose <gfr@w...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus G. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Cato.
>
> I am digesting your remarks and will respond at greater length
shortly.
> However, there are two points which immediately come to my mind
and
> upon which I would like to comment.
>
> >Again, the issue is trust. You describe the implications of my
not
> >being allowed to practice small incidents of my faith if the roles
> >were reversed, and I understand the analogy completely. I have
> >expressed my belief that your faith is NOT "the quaint
superstition
> >of some odd people", and I am somewhat taken aback that you would
> >portray me as holding that view. The mos maiorum is not, however,
the
> >same to the religio as Christ is to Christianity; Christ is "the
same
> >yesterday, today, and tomorrow."(The Epistle of Paul to the
Hebrews,
> >13:8) The mos maiorum evolves.
> >
>
> I am surprised that a man as erudite in Christian doctrine as
yourself
> would take at face value that Pauline passage. The Christology of
the
> chuich and, therefore, the meaning of Christ has most certainly
changed
> over time. You need only compare the views of the Synoptic Gospels
on
> this question to the Christology of the Gospel of John to see the
> plainest evidence possible that the understanding of who Jesus of
> Nazareth was changed radically within the first hundred years of
> Christianity. Paul may have been trying to make an ontological
point,
> but as history he was simply dead wrong. To accept the Pauline
> scripture on this point as an historical observation is to reject a
> century and a half of the most serious critical literature put
forward
> by Christian scholars on the history of the evolution of
Christology.

CATO: Interesting point here, and one which expresses the experience
of the question of history vs. faith: as an Orthodox Christian, I
believe that Paul was stating what is, in fact, the truth; that it
took the Church a couple of hundred years to figure it out and
formally pronounce it does not matter. Jaroslav Pelican wrote an
excellent overview of the process by which the Jesus of history
became the Christ of faith. As an Orthodox Christian, I can
intellectually agree with following the historic process of the
development of Orthodox Christology; at the same time, I believe in
my soul that it was always there, and it took the minds of men some
time to acknowledge and reveal it. Jesus is the Christ, and has
always been, and always will be, unto the ages of ages.

In the same way (to use a somewhat crude and less-than-ideal
comparison), the ancients could have called the Law of Gravity
anything they wanted; it took Isaac Newton to formally pronounce it.
Does this mean the ancients were wrong, or that their experience of
gravity, their assumption of its existence without understanding it
completely makes it less than it actually is? No, they just were not
able to comprehend it in its fullest light.

In this light, perhaps, I can understand your faith regarding the mos
maiorum. The mos maiorum was, and is, and always will be. My
question concerns the process by which we allow itself to be revealed.


>
> >How can a non-practitioner gain the trust required for us to work
> >together? Would it take throwing incense on the altar of
Concordia?
> >I would do it, if for no other reason than harmony in the State,
and
> >I would do it with a clear conscience. You have emphasized action
> >over belief in the past; form over function. Does this apply in
this
> >case?
> >
>
> This is more complicated that you seem to think and I have, perhaps
not
> been sufficiently clear. Orthopraxis is fundamental to the Religio
> while orthodoxy is not. However, within orthopraxis intentio
matters to
> at least some degree. You are validly orthopractically performing
a
> ritual of the Religio by sacrificing incense to Concordia only if
you
> believe that you are making a contractual agreement with something
> outside yourself which is fundamentally different from merely
casting
> incense into a fire.

CATO: Does not my stateent that I would do it because I understood
that it was, in some way, beneficial to the State cover your
question? If I were to cast incense on the altar of Concordia, I
would be doing so with a clear conscience precisely because that act,
whether or not I worship a Goddess invoked under the name
of "Concordia", is part of a process by which I can see Concordia
coming into practice among my fellow-citizens. The contractual
agreement that I have, the thing which is fundamentally outside
myself, is my belief in the peace and growth of the State; my desire
to see persons like *you* find comfort in the communal act of putting
the State in a place from which harmony and benevolence may spring.
That I do not worship the Gods of the State as you do is of little
importance: I am standing side-by-side with those who *do* believe
and performing an action that I know will make them glad. My
conscience, in the face of my belief in Christ, is crystal clear,
because He Himself has instructed me to act in compassion, love, and
mercy towards *all* men (and women, sorry, ladies, if I use only the
male pronouns here...no offense is intended), and if I can do some
little thing to ease your mind and heart, then I am doing His will.

>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

vale,

Cato


>
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24925 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: dido
dido is the name of a cartheginian queen whocommited
suicide after aenas of troy refused to wed her. aenas
and the trjan refugees traveled to italia

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24926 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: An idea for reforming the Censorship
F. Galerius Aurelianus A. Apollonio Cordo. Salve.

The Oath of Office that I took as rogator would abrogate even the slightest
suggestion that any further supervision, by the praetors or any other
magistrate, would be necessary. All rational and accountable beings who put their
faith in the Maker and the Gods know that to swear falsely or break their oath is
anathema. If I were to discover that a fellow rogator had violated his Oath
of Office and broken the confidentiality of the electoral process, I would make
every effort to see that individual stripped of their office and cast out of
Nova Roma. It always pains me to read even the slightest suggestion that we
cannot take on faith that the Oath of Office is sacred and we should trust one
another until such time as it can be proven that someone is either an oath
breaker, an incompetent, or of unsound mind. Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24927 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I find myself in agreement with Scaurus in many ways but I do not believe
that those who are non-practitioners of the Religio represent a clear and present
danger to those who keep to the old ways. First, the Constitution clearly
states that we are a spiritually based group who would restore the Religio. I
have seen more practice of the Religio both on and off the lists this year than
at any other time so I have faith that the Religio is growing stronger. I
know of no magistrates who currently hold office to have violated their Oath in
regard to honoring the Gods even if they are non-practitioners. With one
exception, all the pontiffs, augurs, flamens, and sacerdoes appear to be
improving, educating, or promulgating the Religio both within the NR lists and in the
world at large. I see the future of Nova Roma and the Religio as a slowly
growing light both among all types of pagans and those citizens who keep to the
New Faiths. Let's be tolerant to one another, keep our oaths and the virtues,
and hold true in our hearts to our gods. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24928 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Response & Apology to A. Apollonius Cordus from F. Galerius Aurelia
F. Galerius Aurelianus A. Apollonio Cordo. Salve.

Nay, nay, good citizen. This was not a reprimand aimed at you specifically
but rather a general call that, regardless of any context except historical
scholarship, the topics of re-establishment of slavery, blood sport, and reducing
the status of women in Nova Roma to refute or defend an argument have been
over done and reflect a weakness in many person's viewpoint.

I, F. Galerius Aurelianus, before the Maker and the Gods, publicly apologize
to you and sincerely promise and solemnly swear that I did not mean to single
you out in my rebuke on these topics. I hold you and your opinions in high
regard and you in high esteem, even when I do not agree with those opinions.

I hold you to be an intelligent person but I would rather see virtually any
other reasonable argument or point of debate (political assassination, the
exposure of infants, or other such practices) than one that uses the topic of
slavery or its re-establishment. As I hold that all men are brothers, the very
thought of the re-establishment of slavery or the use of this topic in a
discussion (apart from historical scholarship) is repugnant to me.

May the Gods keep you well.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24929 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Let us not forget that in Old Rome, straw men were sometimes thrown into
rivers or set on fire as a substitute for real people in a sacrifice. Let us all
keep a close eye on our Romano-Celtic citizens and socii to insure they are
not planning a Nova Roma remake of "The Wicker Man" [LOL]. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24930 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

Yes, it is a cheap political trick, which is likely why it continues to be
used by politicians and debaters. If it were an expensive political trick, only
rich political parties and individuals would use it. If one cannot dazzle
the opposition with brilliance, one is left to baffle them with bovine
excrement. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24931 From: cornmoraviusl@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...
Salve Druse,

You said :

> Excuse me your worship,
>
> I Fails to realize that you have the exalted postion of being able to
> make assertations with no citations, and that any who challenge Lord
> Cordus have to provide a doctorial thesis to rebuke his worship's
> uncited works.
>

Please Senator, work on your grammar! It is "I fail" and not "I fails"...

And, if I recall correctly, Cordus already said he will provide sources on
monday as he is away from his books...Do you actually read the posts ?

Vale

Moravius Laureatus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24932 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...
Despite grammatical mistakes we all make (myself included) the basic premise of his arguement still stands intact. So, lets not resort to mistakes most of us do make, because it just makes the person pointing them out look rather small in that that is the basis of their entire post.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: cornmoraviusl@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The Cursus Honorum and the Censores (was Re: FW: PLEASE NOTE:...


Salve Druse,

You said :

> Excuse me your worship,
>
> I Fails to realize that you have the exalted postion of being able to
> make assertations with no citations, and that any who challenge Lord
> Cordus have to provide a doctorial thesis to rebuke his worship's
> uncited works.
>

Please Senator, work on your grammar! It is "I fail" and not "I fails"...

And, if I recall correctly, Cordus already said he will provide sources on
monday as he is away from his books...Do you actually read the posts ?

Vale

Moravius Laureatus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24933 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
G. Iulius Scaurus A. Apollonio Cordo salutem dicit.

Salve, Corde mi amice.

>No one has suggested prohibiting non-practitioners
>from the Comitia or
>from holding magistracies. I have no desire
>whatsoever to reverse the
>compromise which affords non-practitioners to asend
>the cursus honorum
>while performance of the required caerimoniae is
>delegated, nor does
>Hadrianus.
>
>
>
>This puzzles me slightly. You said in a previous
>message today that you resist deviation from the mos
>maiorum except where it is literally impossible to do
>otherwise. Granted, non-practitioners (if we use that
>term strictly to mean those who did not actively
>worship the gods privately - this is the definition I
>offered some time ago and is the only definition i
>have ever seen on this list) were not excluded from
>office, but they were also permitted to perform the
>required ceremonies. I do not see why it would be
>literally impossible to do this in Nova Roma, though I
>can indeed understand (I do not necessarily agree) why
>you would consider such deviation from the mos maiorum
>desirable. Or have I misunderstood historical
>practice?
>

It is my personal judgment that it is impossible to change the
compromises to which Nova Roma has already agreed. If you think it
possible that the Comitia and Senate would agree to retract those
compromises, then you know something which has escaped me entirely.
Would I prefer that a number of them not have been made? Certainly.
Do I think it they can be unmade? Just as certainly not.

>... But is it so difficult to understand
>that there is
>fundamentally a different kind and degree of
>personal investment in how
>Nova Roma restores the mos maiorum for those for
>whom it is a
>fundamental matter of religious importance? People
>talk so blithely
>here about picking and choosing what of the mos
>maiorum to accept and
>what to reject as if it had no more consequence than
>a matter of taste.
>
>
>
>I cannot speak for Cato, but I think I do understand
>this. I also understand how difficult it is for people
>whose dedication and personal investment in the
>restoration of the mos maiorum in Nova Roma is a
>matter of spiritual necessity to understand that it is
>possible for others to have an equally strong
>dedication and and equally deep investment in Nova
>Roma's restoration of the mos maiorum which is of a
>nature not spiritual but emotional and intellectual.
>This is similar to a problem I often encounter with
>Christians: because of the inextricability of morality
>and faith in their religion, they often find it
>impossible to understand how anyone can have any sort
>of moral code without deriving it from religion. Now,
>you and I know that such a thing is perfectly
>possible, for there was no moral code inherent in the
>religio Romana, which was (as you explain below) based
>more on contract, reciprocity, and enlightened
>self-interest. But what I am trying to explain is
>that, just as it is possible to be moral without
>religion, it is possible to be dedicated to the
>restoration of the mos maiorum in Nova Roma without
>religion.
>

I am, perhaps, not making myself clear. The status of the mos maiorum
for a practitioner is fundamental and adherence to it is the very fabric
of the Religio Romana. I have no doubt that some non-practitioners may
have exactly such an attitude toward the mos maiorum, probably in the
same sort of way that Cicero did. After all, Cicero's Peripateticism
led him, an augur, to the view that augury was in itself meaningless
supersititon (this is the central thrust of most of the second book of
"De Divinatione"). However, he concluded that, despite this
intellectual attitude, precise, public adherence to all the forms and
rituals of the ars auspicii was absolutely essential to the maintenance
of the state and the social order. The problem is that I see very
little of that attitude in those non-practitioners who advocate
discarding much of the mos maiorum in favour of their modern political
theories and personal preferences. Time and time again the mos maiorum
is hauled out as an evil, ignorant, backward thing which needs enormous
pruning before it is suitable for the better, wiser, more advanced sort
of person that modernity has produced. It is perhaps more subtle, but
no less real, that the propagation of this attitude as appropriate
undermines the Religio just as effectively as a lex to disestablish it
in the Comitia would. It is talked into a corner when it may be
suffered to remain so long as it does not interfere with the modern
political philosophies and agendas by people who no more understand the
mos maiorum than a paramecium understands quantum mechanics. Whenever
the mos maiorum is defended as the absolute foundation of Nova Roma the
litany of castigations begins the mos maiorum is tyrannical, the mos
maiorum is a conspiracy of practitioners to exclude non-practitioners,
the mos maiorum will bring back slavery, the mos maiorum must be
rejected in favour of a modern constitution. No doubt some are utterly
sincere in their protestations that they have no desire to see the
Religio marginalised, but I think any objective observer would also see
that there is a growing body of political activists who see the mos
maiorum as antithetical to their modern fantasy of ancient Rome and who
continue to rail against it in the hope that, even if it cannot be
acheived today, in a year, in five years they will have propagandised a
large enough body of citizens to ram through the Comitia and Senate
legislation which would leave the mos maiorum and the Religio empty,
inconsequential shells. And if they deny it, bluntly put, I think they
lie. The siren of modernity which calls us to disdain the wisdom of our
ancestors for the illusion of progress and betterment sings as strongly
to most Nova Romans as she does to society as large. And that siren's
song beckons us to the rocks upon which Nova Roma will surely founder if
we do not stand fast against against modernity's blandishments.

>>It is a legitimate fear that those who see Nova Roma
>>as a political
>>role-playing game, or a Romanophile hobby, or a
>>reenactment organisation
>>rather than the material substrate upon which the
>>Religio Romana is
>>being reconstructed will be far more willing to cast
>>aside things which
>>are absolutely essential to the cultural-religious
>>fabric of Romanitas
>>and the Religio Romana.
>>
>>
>
>It is, I agree, a legitimate fear, and one which
>practitioners ought to voice strongly when any
>discussion is devoted to the possibility of deviating
>from the mos maiorum in any particular respect. I know
>you yourself take great pains to point out any
>religious implications in any proposed change, and so
>do others including Modius Athanasius. But it would be
>a step too far to simply suggest (as I think you are
>close to doing, whether intentionally or not) that
>non-pracitioners ought to be considered unqualified
>and undeserving to comment on possible deviations from
>the mos maiorum.
>

I did not say that they all were unqualified and undeserving to comment,
although I think the great majority of non-practitioners (and a not
insignificant minority of practitioners) areliteral unqualified to
comment in the sense that their comments are not grounded to a degree
nececssary for responsible commentary by adequate historical and
language skills. In modern society we are wont to think that
eeveryone's opinion is equal. We tend not to think that way about
physics, for example, for the very good reason that nuclear power plants
would tend to melt down regularly if we valued the opinion of every chap
on the street as equal to that of a physicist. Despite our modern,
egalitarian prejudices it is nonetheless a fact that persons who do not
have the appropriate methodological skills and command of the relevant
sources are incompetent to form mature opinions about the mos maiorum.
It is the task of reconstructionism to provide such skills and
erudition to those citizens of Nova Roma as desire them, but we would be
foolish indeed to assume that this task is in anything but its infancy.

>>... That
>>is precisely the
>>position in which practitioners are placed when
>>non-practitioners
>>advocate discarding aspects of the mos maiorum.
>>They do not understand,
>>by and large, that small concessions to their modern
>>preferences can
>>have the most dire of consequences for how the
>>Religio is reconstructed.
>>
>>
>
>Then I would respectfully suggest that the correct
>response of practitioners is to point out those dire
>consequences, rather than to imply that
>non-practitioners have no right to be discussing such
>things in the first place.
>

If, may the Gods forbid such a thing, you were to require neurosurgery,
would you prefer the operant decisions to be made by a trained
neurosurgeon or people who happened to sign on to a Yahoo list because
they were generally interested in neurosurgery? You can grant the
people on the list all the rights in the matter you please, but the
probability is vastly greater that they would kill you by well-meaning
ignorance. People may not like to hear it, but such well-intentioned
(and, frankly, some not so well-intentioned) ignorance in choosing what
to keep and what to cast aside is just as likely to kill reconstruction
of the Religio Romana in its infancy.

>>... How can we trust
>>that those who little
>>understand the mos maiorum in the first place and
>>who approach its
>>dismemberment as a mere matter of convenience will
>>not cut the very core
>>of our religion away in the process?
>>
>>
>
>Here, my friend, I fear you have been misled by a
>prejudice. You have made the unspoken assumption that
>no one who does not practice the religio can properly
>understand the mos maiorum (for I don't think in the
>context there can be any doubt that your 'those'
>refers to non-practitioners). I have met and studied
>under many eminent scholars whose knowledge and
>understanding of the mos maiorum is unquestionable,
>but to my knowledge not a single one of them
>worshipped the Roman gods. I do not pretend to have as
>great knowledge or understanding as they, or as you,
>but I have some, and it slowly grows and deepens.
>There are many other non-practitioners who can say the
>same. And equally there are practitioners who have
>considerably less than you and even less than I. There
>is absolutely no reason to make the assumption or the
>implication that pracitioners are necessarily or even
>probably more knowledgeable about or understanding of
>the mos maiorum, and such implications when made in
>public do nothing but encourage unfounded prejudice
>against non-practitioners.
>

If you genuinely think that the citizenry of Nova Roma is as
knowledgeable about the mos maiorum as the classics and ancient history
faculties of Oxford University, then you could make a fortune retailing
what you are smoking :-). The principal difference between
practitioners and non-practitioners at this stage of Nova Roma's
development is that practitioners by and large have a greater
recognition of the costs of choosing unwisely in discarding portions of
the mos maiorum and are, therefore, much less like to make fatal
compromises with modernity than most non-practitioners are.

>>I beg you, mi amice, to see the issue from our
>>perspective for but a
>>little while. I beseech you and all other
>>non-practitioner citizens to
>>search your hearts and recognise how you would feel
>>if people who do not
>>share your religious convictions were to flippantly
>>propose abandoning
>>things essential to your faith.
>>
>>
>
>I wish I could do as you request, but I have no
>religious faith, so it is difficult. I make a
>counter-request that you and others not forget the
>existence of people like me in discussions like these.
>

I think you are reading a bit much into what I said here. It was
addressed to someone whom I know to be a devout practitioner of a faith
other than the Religio Romana.

>>... By Pater
>>Quirinus whose Flamen I am I swear: may He take my
>>life this every night
>>if non-practitioners of the Religio Romana in Nova
>>Roma are under any
>>threat from practitioners of the Religio Romana. I
>>doubt that there are
>>few among the non-practitioner modernists of Nova
>>Roma who could take
>>such an oath regarding non-practitioners in good
>>conscience and without
>>fear of perjury.
>>
>>
>
>I am not quite sure what you mean by 'under threat'.
>What threat is it that practitioners are under that
>non-practitioners are not? If I were to guess, I
>should say you mean that pracitioners stand to lose a
>community and a culture which supports, facilitates,
>and underpins their faith, whereas no amount of
>deviation from the mos maiorum would similarly
>undermine the faith of non-practitioners. If that is
>what you mean, then I agree. And if by 'such an oath'
>you mean the very same oath, then I would quite
>happily take it, for I do accept that nothing
>practitioners can do can undermine the foundations of
>the religious beliefs or practices of
>non-practitioners.
>

Paulinus claimed in the posting to which I was responding that
practitioners of the Religio were careening toward declaring
non-practitioners persona non grata in Nova Roma. It is to that
perceived "threat" that I was responding.

>If you mean, though, that non-practitioners are under
>absolutely no threat whatsoever from practitioners, I
>cannot swear to it, because I believe that
>non-practitioners are under threat of social
>exclusion, discrimination, and prejudicial treatment.
>To be sure, the threat is not a conscious one on the
>part of practitioners, and to be sure, the threat is
>not as great nor the possible results as harmful to
>non-practitioners as the threat and the possible
>consequences to practitioners - it is far worse to
>have ones faith undermined and to be left unable to
>practice it than to be ostracised or poorly treated by
>a particular social group or community. But the threat
>is there, and I cannot swear that it is not.
>

To my certain knowledge there has been not a single action of any
institution of the Religio Romana which has infringed on the right of
non-practitioners to participate in any non-religious activity in Nova
Roma. Do I think there are citizens who make false and malicious
characterisations of the Religio and its institutions and the mos
maiorum? Yes, I certainly do. Has the Religio Romana taken any steps
to deprive them of their citizenship or its free exercise? No, not one.
The only line which cannot be crossed is the disestablishment of the
Religio and removeal of its centrality to Nova Roma. And if it is
crossed, then those who cross it will feel the full retribution of the
Religio and its institutions as provided by the laws of Nova Roma. I
certainly think that many non-practitioners (and some practitioners)
would be wiser to keep their mouths shut such because they understand so
little of the Religio and the mos maiorum that they propagate abject
ignorance whenever they speak to these issues, but there is little point
in legislating against foolishness.

>Both groups stand to lose in the current climate,
>though practitioners stand to lose more. I do not
>believe that either group need lose. I strive to
>protect both groups from such threats. If I seem to
>spend more time making the case for non-practitioners
>and criticising the behaviour by practitioners which
>threatens to harm them, it is because I am not
>qualified to speak on behalf of practitioners, and
>because there are prominent and able men already
>making the case for practitioners, yourself prominent
>among them, whereas I see at the moment only a very
>few non-practitioners making the case for their side
>(and this, given their numerical strength, ought
>perhaps to tell you that the climate is not one which
>non-practitioners feel entirely free to make their
>case without fear of attack). But this does not mean
>that I am not worried about the threat to
>practitioners and to the religio, and it troubles me
>that you seem to assume (I hope it is a false seeming)
>that one who voices concerns about the position of
>non-practitioners cannot also be sympathetic to the
>concerns of practitioners. It is perfectly possible to
>be one both sides at once, for the sides are not
>fundamentally opposed, and that is what we must all
>realise if we are not to waste our energies fighting
>one another.
>
I have no doubt that there are citizens like yourself who can see the
issues from both sides, but I think you are ignoring a fundamental fact
of life in Nova Roma. The majority of the citizenry is non-practitioner
and the predominance of the Religio in NR persists only at their
sufferance. It is safe today largely because most of them do not find
it particularly salient, but I am as certain as I am of anything that
were they given a choice between the mos maiorum and modernity, they
would instinctively choose modernity almost every time. At this point
the Religio is relatively secure, but it takes little imagination to
realise that the day is not long off when there will be no incumbent
practitioner consuls or tribunes, and then it will take only a handful
of demagogues to rally a non-practitioner majority on the basis of
innocuous-sounding modern prejudices to legislate the reconstruction of
the Religio Romana in Nova Roma to its doom. I recognise that you can
afford to treat this contingecy as inconsequential; as a pontifex
charged by the mos maiorum and the laws of Nova Roma to defend the
Religio, I cannot.

Vale.

Scaurus



>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24934 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Convened - 2nd Revision
Salvete Quirites,

Find below the text of the Comitia Call, modified with slightly revised
text for the Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinariis and a second candidate
for Censor.


Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, pullarius Gaius Iulius Scaurus has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia
Centuriata. The augury being favorable, I have convened the Comitia
Centuriata for the purpose of electing a replacement for Censor Marcus
Octavius Germanicus, who has resigned; and to vote on a Constitutional
Amendment which will define conditions under which a missing magistrate
may be found to have vacated office.


Candidates for Censor:

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, date of Citizenship: 1998/03/01
Pompeia Minucia Tiberia Strabo, date of Citizenship: 2000/01/16


=== Begin Text of Proposed Constitutional Amendment ==============
Lex Equitia Galeria de Ordinariis

Article IV of the Nova Roma Constitution is amended to
read as follows.

IV. Magistrates are the elected and appointed
officials responsible for the maintenance and conduct
of the affairs of state. There are two categories of
magistrates: those who are ordinarily elected, the
ordinarii; and those who are only occasionally
appointed or elected, the extraordinarii.
Qualifications necessary to hold these positions may
be enacted by law properly passed by one of the
comitia.

An office becomes vacant if the magistrate resigns or
dies. If a magistrate has not been in contact with the
Senate or the Censors for 60 days, and has not
previously notified the Senate and People that he will
need to be out of contact, the Censors shall, having
tried and failed to contact him and having declared
their efforts publicly, declare the office vacant. If
an office becomes vacant and suitable candidates are
at hand, an election shall be held in the appropriate
comitia to elect a successor to serve out the
remainder of the term within forty-five days. Should
one of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his
duties, as defined by the comitia that elected him,
that magistrate may be removed by a law originating in
the comitia that elected him.

The ordinarii, in decreasing order of authority, are
as follows:

=== End Text of Constitutional Amendment =============================


The Centuria Praerogativa, which shall vote first, will be the IX Century.

Schedule for the Contio and vote:

16 Iun (dies comitialis) Contio begins 21:00 Roma time
17 Iun (dies comitialis)
18 Iun (dies comitialis)
19 Iun (dies comitialis)
20 Iun (dies comitialis)
21 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
22 Iun (dies comitialis)
23 Iun (dies comitialis)
24 Iun (dies comitialis)
25 Iun (dies comitialis)
26 Iun (dies comitialis)
27 Iun (dies comitialis)
28 Iun (dies comitialis)
29 Iun (dies comitialis)
30 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting ends midnight (00:00) Roma time


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24935 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Salvete Omnes and most particularly the following:

Lucius Sicinius Drusus
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Gn. Iulius Caesar
F. Galerius Aurelianus

..and anyone else who completely misunderstood the purpose of the
comparison regarding the abhorent topic of slavery.


All that is being said is that NR has made choices, such as the
elimination of slavery. To avoid using that same comparison, we can
use many other examples (some of what have been thoughtfully
provided by other posters) like: exposure of infants, capitol
punishment for vestals that behave carnally or the right of the
paterfamilia to kill anyone in his family without any consequence.

They are eliminated for a variety of reasons, some choices that
people personally support are:

A) It is illegal or impossible in this world.
B) It is abhorent to the current worldview or common personal view.
C) To espouse it would make members or the organization pariahs or
in some other significant way degrade NR or those that belong to it.
D) To espouse it would create great personal difficulty for the
person such as inability to function acceptably with the rest of the
world outside NR or within NR, either together or separately.

By getting increasingly specific and including sub-topics, I'm sure
we can list many more, but that gives a general idea.

All of the above fall squarely under A, B, C, and D for most of the
world. They are easy choices.

All that is being said in this argument is that the REASON for
choosing what stays and what goes is important. It goes to the heart
of the matter, so to speak.

If one group says we must incorporate anything and everything that
isn't specifically illegal or impossible to incorporate, then many
things that fall under B, C and/or D may wind up acceptable or
required within NR.

For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious idea
of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up in
a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before that
is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of the
civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to D.

To take something less contentious, use the example of bribing
juries. A standard practice that was simply accepted in RA (though
occasionally punished), it is not illegal now because any legal
proceeding here is strictly voluntary. It isn't necessarily firmly
under B, C or D for some people. Does that mean we espouse it? It is
distasteful and does carry internal consequences so it is part B and
part D for my part.

Under those who follow, without any hesitation that A is always the
way to go, then bribing juries is surely to come as are many other
contentious and not-so-contentious practises.

Likewise, all of the first example would be included, without
hesitation, if they didn't fall under A anymore by whichever
citizens followed that logic.

So, it is not a strawman to use that example (meaning slavery) as an
illustrative point when discussing intent or extrapolating future
action from current reasoning. It simply goes to the heart of the
matter rather than the precise circumstances. It also happens to be
one of the easy ones to use because it does fall under A, but also
B, C, and D for the vast majority of the world.

This post was only...I repeat, only...a response the strawman posts.
It is not a statement of approval or disapproval for any of the
examples used. It is not intended to malign or otherwise insult any
person, view or habit. All the above disclaimer also includes any
other unintentional offense, appearance of substandard legal
knowledge, appearance of less than doctoral level knowledge of the
RR and anything else the reader can think of to add to the
disclaimer.

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24936 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Market Day Chats
Omnibus Flavius Vedius Germanicus S.P.D.

S.V.B.E.E.V.

Way back in the misty depths of time (that is, the first few years after Nova Roma's founding) we had something of a tradition to hold an online chat every eight days at a given time to mark the traditional Market Day in Roma Antiqua. It was built into the calendar on the website and, as far as I know, it still appears there (somewhat anachronistically).

My question is, would anyone be interested in holding such a regular chat? Interest sort of petered out after a while, but it was a fun thing to do at the time. Anyone want to give it another go?

I understand there have been some technical problems with the live chat on the main website. That being the case, and in the absence of a full time Curator Araneum, such a Market Day Chat could be held in the chat room associated with the Main List on yahoogroups.com, or there are a number of third-party websites that provide live chat features for free.

If there's some interest, we can work out details such as times. The day would roll, being Monday one week, Tuesday the next, etc. The dual benefit with that is that it is both in keeping with the ancient market day schedule and it also affords people who are available only on certain days of the week a chance to participate. It wouldn't be anything official or formal; just a bunch of Cives getting together to talk and hopefully better forge the bonds of friendship and community that we so desperately need as a widely-distributed group.

Di vos incolumes custodiant,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,

Pater Patriae



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24937 From: Scriboni89@aol.com Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Market Day Chats
Salve Germanicus,

I would love to get involved in a live chat. I've always wondered about
that chat, if there was ever going to be one or not etc.

BENE.VALE.
MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
ET.DOMINVS.SODALITATIS.GEOGRAPHIAE.
NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.AVXILIORVM.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.
GN.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24938 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Market Day Chats
Salve,

There were chats..trolls, technical glitches and the ability to
private chat whenever took their toll on the regular chat.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Scriboni89@a... wrote:
> Salve Germanicus,
>
> I would love to get involved in a live chat. I've always
wondered about
> that chat, if there was ever going to be one or not etc.
>
> BENE.VALE.
> MANENS.IN.AMORE.ROMAE.
> ET.FORTIS.IN.FIDE.
> ET.DOMINVS.SODALITATIS.GEOGRAPHIAE.
> NOVAE.ROMAE.ET.AVXILIORVM.LEGIONIS.XXIVAE.MA.
> GN.SCRIBONIVS.SCRIPTOR.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24939 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: Market Day Chats
G. Equitius Cato F. Vedio Germanico S.D.

Absolutely. And the rolling days would be beneficial to those of us
whose work schedules vary. Bravo, Vedius Germanicus; no wonder you
get paid the big bucks :-)

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
<germanicus@g...> wrote:
> Omnibus Flavius Vedius Germanicus S.P.D.
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
>
> Way back in the misty depths of time (that is, the first few years
after Nova Roma's founding) we had something of a tradition to hold
an online chat every eight days at a given time to mark the
traditional Market Day in Roma Antiqua. It was built into the
calendar on the website and, as far as I know, it still appears there
(somewhat anachronistically).
>
> My question is, would anyone be interested in holding such a
regular chat? Interest sort of petered out after a while, but it was
a fun thing to do at the time. Anyone want to give it another go?
>
> I understand there have been some technical problems with the live
chat on the main website. That being the case, and in the absence of
a full time Curator Araneum, such a Market Day Chat could be held in
the chat room associated with the Main List on yahoogroups.com, or
there are a number of third-party websites that provide live chat
features for free.
>
> If there's some interest, we can work out details such as times.
The day would roll, being Monday one week, Tuesday the next, etc. The
dual benefit with that is that it is both in keeping with the ancient
market day schedule and it also affords people who are available only
on certain days of the week a chance to participate. It wouldn't be
anything official or formal; just a bunch of Cives getting together
to talk and hopefully better forge the bonds of friendship and
community that we so desperately need as a widely-distributed group.
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>
> Pater Patriae
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24940 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Re: That Crazy Ole Mos Maiorum
Salve,

My responses interspersed.


>G. Iulius Scaurus A. Apollonio Cordo salutem dicit.


<SNIP>

GIS: I am, perhaps, not making myself clear. The status of the mos
maiorum
for a practitioner is fundamental and adherence to it is the very
fabric
of the Religio Romana.

AOI: Yes, no one is arguing that it isn't that I've noticed.
However, it is a great deal more. It is the very fabric of how
things are and go. Therefore, how we re-establish the Mos is of
absolute importance to all those in NR.


GIS: I have no doubt that some non-practitioners may
have exactly such an attitude toward the mos maiorum, probably in the
same sort of way that Cicero did. After all, Cicero's Peripateticism
led him, an augur, to the view that augury was in itself meaningless
supersititon (this is the central thrust of most of the second book
of
"De Divinatione"). However, he concluded that, despite this
intellectual attitude, precise, public adherence to all the forms and
rituals of the ars auspicii was absolutely essential to the
maintenance
of the state and the social order.


AOI: And herein lies the root of the matter. There was nothing
extraordinary about the RR of RA when compared with the rest of the
religious practices common to the ancient world. They were
contemporaries and their attitudes and practices were of their time.
Look at the religions that were active during RA that have survived
into today. How have they changed? What about them, specifically,
has changed and what precipitated those changes.

Just one example is the Jewish faith. No longer do the majority of
Jewish followers stone people for infractions such as premarital
sex, adultery or disrepecting their parents. It was common enough
then to have very specific rules on the how, the when, the exact
disposal of the remains and the public participation as common
knowledge. Very few places in the world would even permit such
action and even in Israel, such is not done, the one place you would
expect it to occur if it were truly considered a necessary condition
of proper behavior for followers. Why did it stop? What would happen
should it be reinstuted somewhere and all Jews expected to resume
such in order to be considered really Jewish?

One religion does still permit that punishment but only in very
specific places. Look at those places and what is happening..not
with the war, per se, but in the light that so many want only to
escape it. I don't think I would be out of line by saying that much
of the world considers those that practice such as the worst of
humanity; that they are pariahs and beyond the pale for much of the
civilized world. The majority of that religion has changed their
manner and methods and no longer practise such draconian
punishments. Why did they stop?

Look at Christianity. Over the last couple of thousand years they
went from people who were definitely outside the mainstream, to
dominant by their words, to dominant by the sword (or fire or pike),
to becoming dominant again by their words, to becoming fractured
into a veritable smorgasbord of splinter sects that retain just one
major essential element in common. How have they changed? Well, they
don't usually stone people anymore, but they went through stages of
other activities not considered in a good light by today's electric
bulb standards. Today they have groups that eschew anything that was
created after their arrival in America, groups that drink strychnine
or are purposefully bitten by poisonous snakes to show faith, groups
that believe in polygamy, groups that are hardly distinguishable
from one another save by the name they give their groups, to groups
that make their followers firmly believe only by sending in checks
can they receive blessings. They have certainly changed...why?

There is, in fact, not a single solitary religion out there that has
been in practice for the entirety of this time span, by a
significant number of persons throughout, that hasn't changed with
time. Are they less devout? Are they less "serious" about their
faith? Are they less intelligent or less purposeful? No, they are
simply within the flow of time.

While Cicero's writings regarding augury are certainly valuable and
instructive, especially considering his own lack of belief and how
that meshed with his duties, it is by no means a statement of how to
reconstruct something that has, literally, been lost in time for
1700 years. He was a man of his time. We are people of our time.
There is no denying that.


GIS. The problem is that I see very
little of that attitude in those non-practitioners who advocate
discarding much of the mos maiorum in favour of their modern
political
theories and personal preferences. Time and time again the mos
maiorum
is hauled out as an evil, ignorant, backward thing which needs
enormous
pruning before it is suitable for the better, wiser, more advanced
sort
of person that modernity has produced.

AOI: I am a practitioner. Let me state that clearly. But which mos
maiorum is the one that is being called evil and ignorant? Which
year, which century, which iteration? It evolved with time. Wisdom
is a sketchy word; the definition of which depends heavily on the
context. Better is likewise subjective. Advanced..again..in what
way? But we have changed. There can be absolutely no doubt of that.
The majority of our citizens are far and away more separated from
the basics of nature than those of RA. We use computers,
antibiotics, televisions and drive to work in our shiny cars. We
have basic knowledge that those in RA couldn't have imagined..like
invisible waves traveling in the air, the nature of the stars, the
effects of microbes, the way that people far removed from us live
and exposure to information about the world and it's people not even
the most well-traveled Roman of RA ever had. The way we look at the
world is a far cry from the way they did. It is absolutely
unavoidable. Just think of some of the casual conversations any of
us have had with others from the wider world in the past few days.
Would most of them even be comprehensible by those of RA?

Have we changed in our hearts and basic minds? To some extent,
perhaps we have. What horrifies us is a far cry from what horrified
those, from many cultures, in the past. That is less material,
however, than what we accept at a public level and our expectations
from the world around us.

I have yet to see anyone who wishes to discard the Mos for a modern
version that may be indistinguishable from the bylaws of any
subdivision in surburbia. Modernity is a variously used word and
needs more specific context.

<SNIP>
GIS: No doubt some are utterly
sincere in their protestations that they have no desire to see the
Religio marginalised, but I think any objective observer would also
see
that there is a growing body of political activists who see the mos
maiorum as antithetical to their modern fantasy of ancient Rome and
who
continue to rail against it in the hope that, even if it cannot be
acheived today, in a year, in five years they will have
propagandised a
large enough body of citizens to ram through the Comitia and Senate
legislation which would leave the mos maiorum and the Religio empty,
inconsequential shells.

AOI: I understand your point, I really do. As a practitioner, I am
also intensely concerned with the way in which the RR is revived.
Marginalization is not my intent and I haven't really seen any
evidence that it is the intent of anyone else. It appears that the
details of how the RR is revived, how the Mos (whether the aspect is
or is not specific to the RR) is revived are simply not yet agreed
upon. There is no question there are deeply felt differences in
those details that, in my opinion, aren't hammered out will create a
schism that benefits no one. That said, I am not trying to recreate
every flea or injustice of RA. Nor every beauty or every well laid
table. It would be an exercise in futility. All that we can do is
renegotiate our contract with the gods that was broken so completely
so long ago, incorporate the virtues into the framework of life
today that we cannot escape completely and trust that the CP will
renegotiate the contracts in a manner that is most satisfactory to
the gods and assist the citizens in doing it right.


GIS: And if they deny it, bluntly put, I think they
lie. The siren of modernity which calls us to disdain the wisdom of
our
ancestors for the illusion of progress and betterment sings as
strongly
to most Nova Romans as she does to society as large. And that siren's
song beckons us to the rocks upon which Nova Roma will surely
founder if
we do not stand fast against against modernity's blandishments.

AOI: Very poetic, but again, I have no wish to create a RR that I
cannot pass on to my children because it is unacceptable, or that
will make pariahs of all who follow it. That is to crash NR and RR
on the rocks just as surely. Wisdom is, as I said before, a sketchy
word. Who was wise? Which generation, which century was possessed of
the greatest percentage of wise people? Was it those who first
started that little village or those that destroyed it?


GIS: I did not say that they all were unqualified and undeserving to
comment,
although I think the great majority of non-practitioners (and a not
insignificant minority of practitioners) areliteral unqualified to
comment in the sense that their comments are not grounded to a degree
nececssary for responsible commentary by adequate historical and
language skills.

AOI: That is just so elitist. I do have my degrees in biochemistry
and physics, in the fields of oceanography and the atmosphere. I did
not get a liberal arts degree. That does not make me, or anyone else
here, too stupid to understand or comment on how things get revived
here in NR. You don't have to be, in any sense of the word, an
expert on an ancient language to undertand that there are some very
basic dichotomies with regard to the re-establishing of the RR. I
don't have to be Miss Manners to know that hocking a load of snot on
my dinner table is rude and disgusting. Likewise that which is
absolutely anathema to good order and discipline within the context
of the rules we must live under in the real world have to be
considered as we revive NR and RR. It is a recreationist fantasy to
place oneself so outside the plowed field that only by separating
oneself entirely from it can one participate. It can't be maintained
and winds up being a weekend pursuit, furtively pursued by those who
have to advance or be accepted in this world.

GIS: In modern society we are wont to think that
eeveryone's opinion is equal. We tend not to think that way about
physics, for example, for the very good reason that nuclear power
plants
would tend to melt down regularly if we valued the opinion of every
chap
on the street as equal to that of a physicist.

AOI: While those unwashed mashes without nuclear engineering degrees
can't run the plants, they can damn sure make the decision as to
whether or not that plant gets put up. They can hold the cards on
the water quality, the safety precautions and the distance from the
population density it will be. Those that are tasked to test that
output water quality don't know how to run it either, but they'll
tell you if the water is hot. The NDT folks don't know how to run it
either, but they'll shut the place down in a heartbeat if the
concrete begins to show stress. The licensing board doesn't know how
to run it either, but they won't give a permit to a contractor that
doesn't meet the requirements for laying the foundation. They leave
it up to the technicians to run it but they make darn sure all the
qualifications are met. Apples and oranges here. We're the
community, the licensing board and the folks that are checking the
water output quality; you're the tech.

GIS: Despite our modern,
egalitarian prejudices it is nonetheless a fact that persons who do
not
have the appropriate methodological skills and command of the
relevant
sources are incompetent to form mature opinions about the mos
maiorum.
It is the task of reconstructionism to provide such skills and
erudition to those citizens of Nova Roma as desire them, but we
would be
foolish indeed to assume that this task is in anything but its
infancy.

AOI: Again with the elitism. I don't have to have a doctorate in
theology or sociology to distinguish between right and wrong. Nor do
I need a doctorate in atmospheric physics to understand that a
typhoon is a bad thing when it meets a populated coastline. Nor do I
need a doctorate on the Roman Republic to form a mature opinion on
the consequences of exposing young children to ritual slaughter in
today's world or to understand that the gods have responded rather
favorably to my honest attempts or to understand that there is a
natural progression of office-holding. If you want something added
or made official, lay out your argument, lay out your sources, lay
out your reasons for believing your method is best and we'll
understand you..we just might not agree. We are not imbeciles. You
are not superior, only more educated in that particular subject than
most.


GIS: If, may the Gods forbid such a thing, you were to require
neurosurgery,
would you prefer the operant decisions to be made by a trained
neurosurgeon or people who happened to sign on to a Yahoo list
because
they were generally interested in neurosurgery? You can grant the
people on the list all the rights in the matter you please, but the
probability is vastly greater that they would kill you by well-
meaning
ignorance. People may not like to hear it, but such well-intentioned
(and, frankly, some not so well-intentioned) ignorance in choosing
what
to keep and what to cast aside is just as likely to kill
reconstruction
of the Religio Romana in its infancy.


GIS: If you genuinely think that the citizenry of Nova Roma is as
knowledgeable about the mos maiorum as the classics and ancient
history
faculties of Oxford University, then you could make a fortune
retailing
what you are smoking :-). The principal difference between
practitioners and non-practitioners at this stage of Nova Roma's
development is that practitioners by and large have a greater
recognition of the costs of choosing unwisely in discarding portions
of
the mos maiorum and are, therefore, much less like to make fatal
compromises with modernity than most non-practitioners are.

AOI: This is still apples and oranges. The Mos covers a great deal
more about our society that just the RR. The level of interest is
going to vary between citizens based on what they are most concerned
with..that is natural..but that doesn't mean that a non-practitioner
cares not for the Mos.



GIS: To my certain knowledge there has been not a single action of
any
institution of the Religio Romana which has infringed on the right of
non-practitioners to participate in any non-religious activity in
Nova
Roma. Do I think there are citizens who make false and malicious
characterisations of the Religio and its institutions and the mos
maiorum? Yes, I certainly do. Has the Religio Romana taken any steps
to deprive them of their citizenship or its free exercise? No, not
one.
The only line which cannot be crossed is the disestablishment of the
Religio and removeal of its centrality to Nova Roma. And if it is
crossed, then those who cross it will feel the full retribution of
the
Religio and its institutions as provided by the laws of Nova Roma. I
certainly think that many non-practitioners (and some practitioners)
would be wiser to keep their mouths shut such because they
understand so
little of the Religio and the mos maiorum that they propagate abject
ignorance whenever they speak to these issues, but there is little
point
in legislating against foolishness.

AOI: Something you are, perhaps, not considering is that should the
details of how the RR is revived continue to be such a huge bone of
contention, there is a possibility of a schism with 2 distinct camps
and a myriad of in-between views developing from it. Perhaps this is
unavoidable.

Perhaps it is now equally unavoidable that I'll get replies filled
with smack-downs and my lack of worthiness to comment on anything as
exalted as RR, but I am a follower of the RR and I do have a
thought or two in my head, however unworthy.


>Vale.

>Scaurus

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

Disclaimer: The preceeding is not a statement of approval or
disapproval for any of the examples used. It is not intended to
malign or otherwise insult any person, view or habit. All the above
disclaimer also includes any other unintentional offense, appearance
of substandard legal knowledge, appearance of less than doctoral
level knowledge of the RR and anything else the reader can think of
to add to the disclaimer.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24941 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Candidacy for Censor Suffectus
P. Minucia Tiberia Senatus Populesque S.P.D.

Our excellent Consul is quicker than I am (why he's Consul :)), but
nonetheless, I hereby submit my formal declaration that I am running
for Censor Suffectus,in service to Nova Roma, and to our current
Censor, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.

Without repeating alot of things I have said recently,I will cite the
essentials. I have served as Propraetor and Praetor both for atleast
six months.

I am currently serving Propraetor Marcus Darius Firmitus Canada
Orientalis as his Legatus.

I am also Scriba to Curule Aedile Marcus Iulius Perusianus.

In the past I have served as Scriba Consula to Marcus Minucius Audens,
and Scriba to the former Curatrix Sermona (list moderator) P. Vedia
Serena.

I took over these responsibilities in part as Praetor, and together
with my collegia T. Labienus Fortunatus, we wrote the Edictum to allow
"informal" conversations in languages other than English on the
mainlist, to allow better flexibility and accessibility to same for
those whose English was not fluent, this being, subject to our list
guidelines, and the prevailing Lex on formal documents and
legislations, which have to be in English/Latin.

Together with my collegia, and sometimes individually, we did our best
to input into the issue of Gens Reforms discussions of 2002, with as
careful attention to historically legal, religious and cultural
precedents as practically possible for Nova Roma.

I served on the committee which organized the inception of Sodalitas
Musarum. I also assisted Consul Audens and his staff with the
foundations of Sodalitas Militarium and Sodalitas Egressus.

Regardless of who might call me 'plastic' in this regard (some did
when I ran for Praetor, and this is fine) I shall pledge, as I did
when I stood for Praetor, that I shall donate $250.00 U.S. to the
Magna Mater fund in the event I cannot fulfill my term of office.

I say this because I resigned in the past, and I wish to display a
measure of sincerity in my running for office. A couple of months
back, after two magisterial resignations, citizens introduced for
discussion the idea of candidates posting money before running for
office, and I thought it had some merit under certain circumstances,
and especially applicable to me, since I resigned.

I am happy to answer any questions you may have of me, privately or
publicly.

Valete..
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24942 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: "Citizen Kits"
Omnibus Flavius Vedius Germanicus S.P.D.

S.V.B.E.E.V.

Our good Consular scribe Quintus Cassius Calvus, in a private email, reminded me of a project that was broached years ago, and never really acted on. I honestly can't remember if it was even mentioned in public, or just in private conversations. But the idea is thus:

We make available to cives, for a reasonable price, an (entirely optional) "citizenship kit", which would consist of a frameable certificate of Citizenship (I would hope modeled on historical papers affirming Citizenship), a passport (modern style, but with a big ol' disclaimer about trying to use it to cross borders), a flag (I understand there is a plan to get some larger ones done up), a couple of coins (if we get a new batch minted), some stamps (oops! did I say stamps? That's for another email.), and so forth.

The details are variable, but I think the idea is sound. I know I'd fork over a few dollars to get a certificate and a passport, knowing that profits were benefitting the treasury. What say ye? Think it's worth pursuing?

Di vos incolumes custodiant,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,

Pater Patriae





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24943 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-19
Subject: Stinking fish (was: Re: The Strawman Argument.)
Salve,

The use of the example of slavery, however well intentioned, was
bound to de-focus the discussion from the Mos to the emotive. Using
this example could lead those who haven't followed this discussion
and probably countless others when this topic was raised, to believe
that someone has been militating for this under the blanket of a call
for a return to the Mos. This of course is false.

For those who have followed it raising this old chestnut is just like
waving a red rag to a bull - on both sides of the fence.

As a tactic, it either achieved its end perfectly or added to the
general perception that the Mos is linked to abhorent practices. The
Mos as we know it in Nova Roma, frankly barely exists. That a small
flicker of flame exists where it is concerned is amazing given all
the disinformation and scaremongering that surrounds discussion of
this topic.

It is a specious argument anyway to say Nova Roma gave this up. It
did no such thing. Nova Roma is bound to respect macronational law
and I know of no macronational country where NR has a formally
consituted province that allows this. I doubt it is allowed in any
country we have members - I could be mistaken but I think I am
correct. We did not give up this or other aspects of life in
antiquity such as gladatorial comabt to the death or maiming, because
that implies a concious decision or debate. It just was never on the
table as it was too preposterous an idea.

So to say that based on these sort of examples we can willy-nilly
bend and chop what is left of the Mos is again a specious argument.
The Mos is in any case far more complex and involved than these
simplistic examples of a few of its former constituent parts. You
have to view the Mos in a holistic manner, not at the sub-atomic
level.

It is precisely this sort of focus on specific parts and the
microscopic and continued re-evaluation of the few elements of the
Mos that quite obviously are NEVER going to re-surface that is the
methodolgy of its principal opponents.

That combined with appeals to the constitution and the morass of
legislation (few items of which are either necessary in a community
of 200 or are well written enough to stand any legal test - even in
NR), serves to produce this dish of poisoned and twisted information
that is served up on this list as the Mos. This is waved under the
noses of readers and in the other is waved a collection of delicious
looking legal goodies. Trouble is foul looking mushrroms can taste
excellent and be very wholesome, while cakes that look wonderful can
be rancid and foul. Given our macronational propensity for regulating
everything I am amazed that people buy into this nonsense that
everything called a law is good and everything about the Mos is bad.

The collection of seemingly democratic and honest persons who
participate in this cannot be that obtuse that they don't know what
they are doing. If they do know then this continued distortion of the
truth and scaremongering is very low and poor politics.

It also presupposes that people on here are so gullible that they
cannot recognise a stinking fish when they see one.

Vale
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes and most particularly the following:
>
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Gn. Iulius Caesar
> F. Galerius Aurelianus
>
> ..and anyone else who completely misunderstood the purpose of the
> comparison regarding the abhorent topic of slavery.

> Valete,
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24944 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: "Citizen Kits"
Salve,

I like the idea. Perhaps a bit of kitsch (sp?) there, but hey,
it's cute and a right fun idea. I'd do it to.

Vale,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
<germanicus@g...> wrote:
> Omnibus Flavius Vedius Germanicus S.P.D.
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
>
> Our good Consular scribe Quintus Cassius Calvus, in a private
email, reminded me of a project that was broached years ago, and
never really acted on. I honestly can't remember if it was even
mentioned in public, or just in private conversations. But the idea
is thus:
>
> We make available to cives, for a reasonable price, an (entirely
optional) "citizenship kit", which would consist of a frameable
certificate of Citizenship (I would hope modeled on historical
papers affirming Citizenship), a passport (modern style, but with a
big ol' disclaimer about trying to use it to cross borders), a flag
(I understand there is a plan to get some larger ones done up), a
couple of coins (if we get a new batch minted), some stamps (oops!
did I say stamps? That's for another email.), and so forth.
>
> The details are variable, but I think the idea is sound. I know
I'd fork over a few dollars to get a certificate and a passport,
knowing that profits were benefitting the treasury. What say ye?
Think it's worth pursuing?
>
> Di vos incolumes custodiant,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>
> Pater Patriae
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24945 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:

>
> For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious idea
> of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
> in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up in
> a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before that
> is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of the
> civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to D.

Salvete Omnes,

This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness, the
egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.

Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who wasn't
worth mentioning?

The Immortals.

We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings without
even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals because
of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-beleaver
might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.

We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are expected
to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between Man
and Immortal.

The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's almost
as if they expect the Gods to worship them.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24946 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Salve Drusus.

I fully expect to see a law ordering the Immortals to worship the
constitution.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> <christyacb@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious
idea
> > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
> > in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up
in
> > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before
that
> > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of the
> > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to
D.
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness, the
> egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
>
> Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who wasn't
> worth mentioning?
>
> The Immortals.
>
> We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
without
> even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
> susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals because
> of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
beleaver
> might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
>
> We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
expected
> to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between Man
> and Immortal.
>
> The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's
almost
> as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
> Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24947 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
LSD,

I would have hoped that the gods would have been obvious. As it
was, I was trying only to illustrate the reason for using that
particular subject as a relatively simple comparison. I also don't
mention the dedication to creating a historical legal system,
however I use the example of bribing juries. I'd like to know how
I'm impugning the gods by using that one as an example? Or did they
mandate bribery too and I'm merely misunderstanding that bribery
isn't actually a religious practice. It wasn't RR specific, please
get that straight right off the bat. It was NR in general. I don't
have to mention the gods in every single post..or should I now be
sure to include what I esteem the gods believe about my cooking
skills when posting about roman cooking? Please note the actual
words..follow the thread..then spout vile and putrid deprecations
about me after being sure you know what the heck you're talking
about.

So please..keep your nasty decisions about my internal cranial
workings words to yourself. I am a practitioner. Not the enemy. And
you don't know a thing about me.

Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> <christyacb@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious
idea
> > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
> > in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up
in
> > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before
that
> > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of
the
> > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to
D.
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness,
the
> egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
>
> Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who
wasn't
> worth mentioning?
>
> The Immortals.
>
> We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
without
> even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
> susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals
because
> of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
beleaver
> might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
>
> We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
expected
> to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between
Man
> and Immortal.
>
> The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's
almost
> as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
> Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24948 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position
Avete Omnes,

I come before you to state my experience for the position of Censor Suffectus. I believe that I will be the best candidate for the position based on previous experience, computer experience and the necessary time able to spend on the job.

Part of the job of being Censor is having computer knowledge and experience. I do. My experience ranges from DOS to Windows, from PC to Macintosh. I have worked with all manner of computer systems, and served as technical support for one of the largest Internet Service Providers in the United States, Earthlink.

Due to my personal circumstances, I will be able to devote the majority of my time to the job through the completion of its term, being available online and having few other obligations.

My past experience in Nova Roma has also been wide and varied. I have completed a term as Quaestor. I have completed my term as Praetor. I completed my term as Consul. I also completed my full term as Censor and as Consul for a second time. I run the NR_Jewish_Sod, the Back Alley, the Nova Roma Laws list, Paterfamilias list, and I have served as assistant and scribe to various other magistrates and committees.

Finally, if I am needed for any contact I am available via phone, email, AIM (NovaRoman), Yahoo (L_Cornelius_Sulla), MSN (corneliussulla@...) and ICQ (2122309).

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24949 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Pleasant conversations with Caeso Fabius
Salvete all,

I would just like to state for the record that for the last few weeks Censor Caeso Fabius and I
have exchanged a few very pleasant emails offlist where he offered me a position as a Scriba on
his team. Unfortunately due to work obligations which will last until the end of November 2004, I
had to refuse. For this same reason a few months ago I resigned my position as Scriba for Curule
Aedile G Iulius Scaurus and also as Provincial Governor of Gallia. So not accepting Caeso Fabius'
generous offer has nothing whatsoever to do with any politics or negative feelings, etc. etc. I
feel that if I can't dedicate myself 100% to my positions, then I shouldn't hold them and collect
century points which I wouldn't deserve.

That all said, even though I cannot accept a position in Caeso Fabius' team at this time (he'll be
in office through 2005 as well, so there is always next year), I look forward to many more
pleasant exchanges with him on and offlist.

Valete,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24950 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Here I was....
Salvete all,

.....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month, when I hear through the
grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me again once again mistelling
ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her paranoia. I haven't seen the email
because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any attention to anyone who is so full of
hate and paranoia.

In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that in all seriousness and without
sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to read her bandwidth, her illness
always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her sake that she sees a doctor.

Valete,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24951 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Ave Diana,

Please lets not go down this road. It really does not help anyone nor does it solve any problems. Any issues that you believe that Po has it is going to be up to her to solve. But lets please try to keep this off list. Please feel free to correct any inaccuracies in her recalling of NR's history but we do not need to devolve to name calling.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Octavia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:08 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....


Salvete all,

.....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month, when I hear through the
grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me again once again mistelling
ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her paranoia. I haven't seen the email
because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any attention to anyone who is so full of
hate and paranoia.

In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that in all seriousness and without
sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to read her bandwidth, her illness
always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her sake that she sees a doctor.

Valete,
Diana Octavia



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24952 From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Ave Omnes

It's incredible. A moment later a person proposes her candidature for an office
someone (referring to a not better specified something the candidate would have
said sometimes in the past month and that the someone hasn't actually read, but
heard reported by a third or fourth person) accuses the candidate to be
mentally ill. What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone candidates for
Consulship? Just how low can you go?

I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I hope also
that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's official and
public that one can't just behave like that.

vale

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis



Scrive Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@...>:

> Salvete all,
>
> .....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month, when I hear
> through the
> grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me again once
> again mistelling
> ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her paranoia. I
> haven't seen the email
> because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any attention to
> anyone who is so full of
> hate and paranoia.
>
> In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that in all
> seriousness and without
> sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to read her
> bandwidth, her illness
> always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her sake that
> she sees a doctor.
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24953 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Ave,

Actually I think you need to check the archieves. Diana Moravia was referring to post 24790. Which was dated on 6/17/04. Prior to her candidacy for Censor Suffectus. Not everyone reads the list as frequently as you or I, Domitius Constantinus.

Vale,
----- Original Message -----
From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....


Ave Omnes

It's incredible. A moment later a person proposes her candidature for an office
someone (referring to a not better specified something the candidate would have
said sometimes in the past month and that the someone hasn't actually read, but
heard reported by a third or fourth person) accuses the candidate to be
mentally ill. What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone candidates for
Consulship? Just how low can you go?

I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I hope also
that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's official and
public that one can't just behave like that.

vale

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis



Scrive Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@...>:

> Salvete all,
>
> .....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month, when I hear
> through the
> grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me again once
> again mistelling
> ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her paranoia. I
> haven't seen the email
> because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any attention to
> anyone who is so full of
> hate and paranoia.
>
> In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that in all
> seriousness and without
> sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to read her
> bandwidth, her illness
> always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her sake that
> she sees a doctor.
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia
>
>

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24954 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Fw: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....


Ave,

Actually I think you need to check the archieves. Diana Moravia was referring to post 24790. Which was dated on 6/17/04. Prior to her candidacy for Censor Suffectus. Not everyone reads the list as frequently as you or I, Domitius Constantinus.

Vale,
----- Original Message -----
From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....


Ave Omnes

It's incredible. A moment later a person proposes her candidature for an office
someone (referring to a not better specified something the candidate would have
said sometimes in the past month and that the someone hasn't actually read, but
heard reported by a third or fourth person) accuses the candidate to be
mentally ill. What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone candidates for
Consulship? Just how low can you go?

I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I hope also
that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's official and
public that one can't just behave like that.

vale

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis



Scrive Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@...>:

> Salvete all,
>
> .....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month, when I hear
> through the
> grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me again once
> again mistelling
> ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her paranoia. I
> haven't seen the email
> because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any attention to
> anyone who is so full of
> hate and paranoia.
>
> In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that in all
> seriousness and without
> sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to read her
> bandwidth, her illness
> always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her sake that
> she sees a doctor.
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia
>
>

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ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24955 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Salve,

It isn't the least bit increadible, this candidate has made attacks
directed at Diana Octavia a regular feature of this list for the past
two years, attacks consisting of accusations of Diana being involved
in assorted conspiracies that make the ones on the X Files TV show
seem tame.

Given that history it's entirely understandable that Diana feels the
candidate has an unhealthy obsession regarding her.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave Omnes
>
> It's incredible. A moment later a person proposes her candidature
for an office
> someone (referring to a not better specified something the candidate
would have
> said sometimes in the past month and that the someone hasn't
actually read, but
> heard reported by a third or fourth person) accuses the candidate to be
> mentally ill. What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone
candidates for
> Consulship? Just how low can you go?
>
> I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I
hope also
> that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's
official and
> public that one can't just behave like that.
>
> vale
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
>
>
>
> Scrive Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@y...>:
>
> > Salvete all,
> >
> > .....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month,
when I hear
> > through the
> > grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me
again once
> > again mistelling
> > ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her
paranoia. I
> > haven't seen the email
> > because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any
attention to
> > anyone who is so full of
> > hate and paranoia.
> >
> > In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that
in all
> > seriousness and without
> > sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to
read her
> > bandwidth, her illness
> > always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her
sake that
> > she sees a doctor.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Diana Octavia
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24956 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Salve,

I Read your attempt at defending the use of the Ad Hominem & Strawman
argument of accusing people of being Slavers, a practice that I notice
you have engaged in yourself, most recently using it against Scaurus.

It is the same tactic that sleazy politicians are using when they hurl
accusations like "Nazi", "Communist", or "Racist" at anyone who dares
oppose them rather than refuting the other person's viewpoints.

If you want to engage in this vile and disgusting practice, then
expect the nature of your debating style to be thrown in your face
when you attempt it.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:
> LSD,
>
> I would have hoped that the gods would have been obvious. As it
> was, I was trying only to illustrate the reason for using that
> particular subject as a relatively simple comparison. I also don't
> mention the dedication to creating a historical legal system,
> however I use the example of bribing juries. I'd like to know how
> I'm impugning the gods by using that one as an example? Or did they
> mandate bribery too and I'm merely misunderstanding that bribery
> isn't actually a religious practice. It wasn't RR specific, please
> get that straight right off the bat. It was NR in general. I don't
> have to mention the gods in every single post..or should I now be
> sure to include what I esteem the gods believe about my cooking
> skills when posting about roman cooking? Please note the actual
> words..follow the thread..then spout vile and putrid deprecations
> about me after being sure you know what the heck you're talking
> about.
>
> So please..keep your nasty decisions about my internal cranial
> workings words to yourself. I am a practitioner. Not the enemy. And
> you don't know a thing about me.
>
> Annia Octavia Indagatrix
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> > <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious
> idea
> > > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> > > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
> > > in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up
> in
> > > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before
> that
> > > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of
> the
> > > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> > > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to
> D.
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness,
> the
> > egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
> >
> > Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who
> wasn't
> > worth mentioning?
> >
> > The Immortals.
> >
> > We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
> without
> > even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
> > susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals
> because
> > of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
> beleaver
> > might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
> >
> > We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
> expected
> > to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between
> Man
> > and Immortal.
> >
> > The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's
> almost
> > as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24957 From: aoctaviaindagatrix Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
LSD,

I'm actually sitting here laughing! Your response is so absurd, so
ridiculous, so righteously angry over a definition that you have me
in stitches. I actually woke up one of the kids I laughed so loud.

You're just so amusing when your typeface turns purple with
indignation! I enjoyed that..

Annia Octavia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
<drusus@b...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I Read your attempt at defending the use of the Ad Hominem &
Strawman
> argument of accusing people of being Slavers, a practice that I
notice
> you have engaged in yourself, most recently using it against
Scaurus.
>
> It is the same tactic that sleazy politicians are using when they
hurl
> accusations like "Nazi", "Communist", or "Racist" at anyone who
dares
> oppose them rather than refuting the other person's viewpoints.
>
> If you want to engage in this vile and disgusting practice, then
> expect the nature of your debating style to be thrown in your face
> when you attempt it.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> > LSD,
> >
> > I would have hoped that the gods would have been obvious. As
it
> > was, I was trying only to illustrate the reason for using that
> > particular subject as a relatively simple comparison. I also
don't
> > mention the dedication to creating a historical legal system,
> > however I use the example of bribing juries. I'd like to know
how
> > I'm impugning the gods by using that one as an example? Or did
they
> > mandate bribery too and I'm merely misunderstanding that bribery
> > isn't actually a religious practice. It wasn't RR specific,
please
> > get that straight right off the bat. It was NR in general. I
don't
> > have to mention the gods in every single post..or should I now
be
> > sure to include what I esteem the gods believe about my cooking
> > skills when posting about roman cooking? Please note the actual
> > words..follow the thread..then spout vile and putrid
deprecations
> > about me after being sure you know what the heck you're talking
> > about.
> >
> > So please..keep your nasty decisions about my internal cranial
> > workings words to yourself. I am a practitioner. Not the enemy.
And
> > you don't know a thing about me.
> >
> > Annia Octavia Indagatrix
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> > > <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > For example, let's take the ever present and ever
contentious
> > idea
> > > > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it
or
> > > > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly
illegal
> > > > in most places, there are great many places where you'll
wind up
> > in
> > > > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins
before
> > that
> > > > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority
of
> > the
> > > > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C
will
> > > > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down
to
> > D.
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > >
> > > This is an excellant example of the increadible self
centerness,
> > the
> > > egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
> > >
> > > Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who
> > wasn't
> > > worth mentioning?
> > >
> > > The Immortals.
> > >
> > > We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
> > without
> > > even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We
are
> > > susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals
> > because
> > > of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
> > beleaver
> > > might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
> > >
> > > We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
> > expected
> > > to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements
between
> > Man
> > > and Immortal.
> > >
> > > The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing,
it's
> > almost
> > > as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24958 From: Michael Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Salve, Caesar.

Actually, it's a law requiring Them to *obey* the Constitution,
not "worship" it. Silly Caesar.

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Drusus.
>
> I fully expect to see a law ordering the Immortals to worship the
> constitution.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> > <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious
> idea
> > > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> > > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly
illegal
> > > in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind
up
> in
> > > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before
> that
> > > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of
the
> > > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> > > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to
> D.
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness,
the
> > egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
> >
> > Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who
wasn't
> > worth mentioning?
> >
> > The Immortals.
> >
> > We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
> without
> > even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
> > susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals
because
> > of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
> beleaver
> > might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
> >
> > We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
> expected
> > to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between
Man
> > and Immortal.
> >
> > The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's
> almost
> > as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24959 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: ante diem XII Kalendae Quinctilis
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

Today is ante diem XII Kalendae Quinctilis and sacred to Summanus; the
day is comitialis. On this day the temple of Summanus, the God of the
nocturnal sky, was dedicated in 278 BCE.

Tomorrow is ante diem XI Kalendae Quinctilis; the day is comitialis.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Aedilis Curulis, Flamen Quirinalis et Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24960 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Anger?

No disapointment at the low morality of some of our citizens.

LSD

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:
> LSD,
>
> I'm actually sitting here laughing! Your response is so absurd, so
> ridiculous, so righteously angry over a definition that you have me
> in stitches. I actually woke up one of the kids I laughed so loud.
>
> You're just so amusing when your typeface turns purple with
> indignation! I enjoyed that..
>
> Annia Octavia
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > I Read your attempt at defending the use of the Ad Hominem &
> Strawman
> > argument of accusing people of being Slavers, a practice that I
> notice
> > you have engaged in yourself, most recently using it against
> Scaurus.
> >
> > It is the same tactic that sleazy politicians are using when they
> hurl
> > accusations like "Nazi", "Communist", or "Racist" at anyone who
> dares
> > oppose them rather than refuting the other person's viewpoints.
> >
> > If you want to engage in this vile and disgusting practice, then
> > expect the nature of your debating style to be thrown in your face
> > when you attempt it.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> > <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> > > LSD,
> > >
> > > I would have hoped that the gods would have been obvious. As
> it
> > > was, I was trying only to illustrate the reason for using that
> > > particular subject as a relatively simple comparison. I also
> don't
> > > mention the dedication to creating a historical legal system,
> > > however I use the example of bribing juries. I'd like to know
> how
> > > I'm impugning the gods by using that one as an example? Or did
> they
> > > mandate bribery too and I'm merely misunderstanding that bribery
> > > isn't actually a religious practice. It wasn't RR specific,
> please
> > > get that straight right off the bat. It was NR in general. I
> don't
> > > have to mention the gods in every single post..or should I now
> be
> > > sure to include what I esteem the gods believe about my cooking
> > > skills when posting about roman cooking? Please note the actual
> > > words..follow the thread..then spout vile and putrid
> deprecations
> > > about me after being sure you know what the heck you're talking
> > > about.
> > >
> > > So please..keep your nasty decisions about my internal cranial
> > > workings words to yourself. I am a practitioner. Not the enemy.
> And
> > > you don't know a thing about me.
> > >
> > > Annia Octavia Indagatrix
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > > <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> > > > <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, let's take the ever present and ever
> contentious
> > > idea
> > > > > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it
> or
> > > > > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly
> illegal
> > > > > in most places, there are great many places where you'll
> wind up
> > > in
> > > > > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins
> before
> > > that
> > > > > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority
> of
> > > the
> > > > > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C
> will
> > > > > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down
> to
> > > D.
> > > >
> > > > Salvete Omnes,
> > > >
> > > > This is an excellant example of the increadible self
> centerness,
> > > the
> > > > egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
> > > >
> > > > Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who
> > > wasn't
> > > > worth mentioning?
> > > >
> > > > The Immortals.
> > > >
> > > > We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
> > > without
> > > > even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We
> are
> > > > susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals
> > > because
> > > > of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
> > > beleaver
> > > > might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
> > > >
> > > > We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
> > > expected
> > > > to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements
> between
> > > Man
> > > > and Immortal.
> > > >
> > > > The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing,
> it's
> > > almost
> > > > as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
> > > >
> > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > > Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24961 From: ravenwynterwonder Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: happy fathers day wishes
To all the Dads and Husbands in the Group
!!!!!!HAPPY FATHERS DAY!!!!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24962 From: lori bannick Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
If the Gods require a blood sacrifice you can always spill your own. It is my understanding that the blood was all that was required, not the actual death of the animal in witch case you supply the blood, your own, and leave a cut of meat from the store or grain gathered at the road side. Unless your sacficing to Baal the killing it is not necessary just the spilling of the blood and if nothing else you can always buy it, they sell doves blood etc.... in occult shops.

Lucius Sicinius Drusus <drusus@...> wrote:--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
<christyacb@y...> wrote:

>
> For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious idea
> of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
> in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up in
> a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before that
> is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of the
> civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to D.

Salvete Omnes,

This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness, the
egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.

Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who wasn't
worth mentioning?

The Immortals.

We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings without
even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals because
of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-beleaver
might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.

We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are expected
to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between Man
and Immortal.

The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's almost
as if they expect the Gods to worship them.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24963 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
< accuses the candidate to be
mentally ill.

I mentioned no word of anyone's candidacy. And I gave my opinion, which I stand by.

<What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone candidates for
<Consulship?

That's definately worse than insinuating that a Consular candidate a slut because she was
virtually wearing a toga.... But oh, that's right, you weren't around last election.

<I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I hope also
<that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's official and
<public that one can't just behave like that.

You're completely right: two wrongs don't make a right. So if Pompeia Cornelia Minucia stops
making constant remarks about me in the third person when I am not even taking part in any
conversations with her, then I'll stop having the need to give my opinion about a person who seems
to have an obsessive hatred of me.

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24964 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Salve Drusus,

<Given that history it's entirely understandable that Diana feels the
<candidate has an unhealthy obsession regarding her.

No argument from me there... Besides that, at the time I wrote my email I didn't even know that
she had declared her candidacy for Censor.

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24965 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: CALL - The Comitia Populi and Comitia Plebis are called to vote!
L. Arminius Faustus Tribunus Plebis ex officio,

Roman people of the quirites,

I have a deep believe that proposing legislation is one of the most rewarding services the magistrates can do to Nova Roma. Indeed it is the bright and construtive side of politics, and all magistrates must be proud of it.

So, according to Lex Salicia, Lex Moravia and Lex Arminia, within the Tribunicia Potestas given me by the roman people on its Comitia, I call the Comitia Populi Tributa and the Comitia Plebis Tributa to vote legislation proposals.

Our law system is an emanation of the will of the people, dinamic as the people is a living and thinking political body, a wiseness anonimous but deep. No wonder the ancient romans have carved the saying 'Vox Populi Vox Dei'. Beloved by the gods, the Comitia is the peak development of the roman political system.

And there is no great honour than calling it.

Proud by this sweet burden, I pray for Iove Capitolinus, for the wiseness of the roman people. I raise my hands for Ceres and Diana, patronesses of the Plebs and the Tribunes, to Salus and Concordia Publica, for a peaceful and fruitful Comitia.

I also make an appeal to the discussion of the law proposals during the Contio. The biggest service a citizen can do besides its vote is discussing the law, recognizing its excellence to the res Publica or even its needs of corrections, becoming the co-legislators.

"Moribus antiquis res stat romana virisque"

This verse of poet Enius, Cicero has put on the mouth of Scipio Aemilianus on De Re Publica magnus opus, now comes to my mind. Indeed, it applies to this present situation, by men and custom, the men on the Comitia and the uses ancient uses of the calling of the Comitia. Soon in the same chapter, he asks ´What do remain of the ancient uses that made the roman glory?´. When I consider this calling, I understand the importance of these Nova Roma Comitias to the reborn of this Republic, and the necessity of the submitting of legislation to the will of people, and the sucess Nova Roma will have when each magistrate brings his stone, his contribution, his proposal to the a each day more improved legislation. At the same way the own Cicero recognizes the sucess of Rome was not due to any legislator, but to a continuous contribution and evolution of centuries, the development of many laws by many magistrates, a job bigger than single human life made by the resultant of all legislation
brought and approved by the Comitias, source of the power of all magistratures and the colective wiseness, the very regent of the dinamic and evolution the body of the Republic suffer. The sucess of this formula we are testimonies, trying to reach it again here.

This is the agenda for Comitia Populi Tributa and Comitia Plebis Tributa.

20 Iun (dies comitialis) Contio begins since this calling is issued on NR foruns
21 Iun (dies comitialis)
22 Iun (dies comitialis)
23 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting begins 00:01 Roma time
24 Iun (dies comitialis)
25 Iun (dies comitialis)
26 Iun (dies comitialis)
27 Iun (dies comitialis)
28 Iun (dies comitialis)
29 Iun (dies comitialis)
30 Iun (dies comitialis) Voting ends midnight (00:00) Roma time

These are the following law proposals to be submitted to the will of the roman people:

PROPOSALS FOR COMITIA POPULI
The text of the proposals will be separated by a ´***'

***
--- PROPOSAL I FOR COMITIA POPULI ---
LEX ARMINIA DE LEVANDIS CENSORVM ONERIBVS

Agnoscens Rem Publicam Novae Romae per multas nationes, cultus, et linguas dilatam esse, haec lex onera censorum leviora factura est, et permissura promulgationem meliorem Novae Romae in omnibus locis orbis terrarum.

This law is intended to alleviate the burden of the censors, recognizing the expansion of Nova Roma through many countries, languages, and cultures, and allow for improved promulgation of Nova Roma in all parts of the world.

I. Edicto subtiliter enumeranti nomina civium singularium quibuscum congrediendis et tempus per quod valeat, censor potestates suas vel propraetori vel proconsuli provinciae, et legato designato ab eo, pro tempore legare permittatur ut cum cive in provincia sua congredi possit.

I. A censor, via an edictum specifying the names of specific citizens to be contacted and the time interval during which the edictum is effective, may temporarily delegate censorial powers to a provincial governor and to that governor's designated legate in order to reach a citizen within that governor's province.

II. Propraetor aut proconsul provinciae cui potestas hac lege dabitur censori renuntiationem enarrantem eventus huius investigationis proponet. Rebus teneris remotis, haec renuntiatio iudicio censoris foras efferatur.

II. A provincial governor empowered under the terms of this law shall issue a report to the censor detailing the results of the search. This report may, at the censor's discretion, be made public after any sensitive information has been removed from it.

III. Censor scientia praebita in renuntiatione propraetoris vel proconsulis provincialis in functione munerum censoriorum uti permittetur.

III. The censor may use the information provided in the provincial governor's report in the execution of censorial duties.

IV. Haec lex statim valebit.

IV. This law shall take effect immediately.

***
--- PROPOSAL II FOR COMITIA POPULI ---

LEX ARMINIA DE FOVENDA LINGVA LATINA

This law is intended to encourage classical studies and increase the usage of Latin among the citizens of Nova Roma, recognizing that the fostering of the Latin language is one of the most important and strategic concerns of Nova Roman government.

I. A citizen who is skilled enough in the Latin language that he or she can correct existing texts in Latin [i.e., proofread them] and translate accurately from his or her native language into Latin, and who has served the Republic in this capacity, may request the Senate for the honorary title of 'Latinist.'

II. The application of the citizen shall be send to the Senate throught the consules. The Senate will vote on the proposal and a simple majority shall be sufficient to approve the title.

III. The latinist shall be released from paying the tax of the following year. To be considered assidui, the latinist shall only need to write to the Consular Quaestor in charge of tax collection during the tax payment period confirming the status of Latinist.

IV. The Latinist title must be evaluated annually by the Senate. It will be valid from the time of approval until the end of the year. The tax release, however, will be valid only for the following year, regardless of renewal.

V. A senatusconsultum may specify other rules for Latinist´s application.

VI. The title of latinist shall be considered a honour title granted by the Senate to citizens for their services to the Res Publica in the promotion of Latin studies.

***
--- PROPOSAL III FOR COMITIA POPULI ---

LEX ARMINIA EQVITIA DE DIGNITATE CVRVLI

Haec lex verbum Romanum antiquum in formula legitima Novae Romae proprie definitura est, et fundamentum legibus instantibus et futuris erit.
This law is intended to properly define an ancient Roman term within the Nova Roman legal system and be a basis for present and future legislation.

I. Magistratus aliquis dignitatem curulem gerens iura sequentia habebit:
1.1) Ius gerendi togam praetextam.
1.2) Ius sedendi in sella curuli.
1.3) Ius adeundi senatum.

I. Any magistrate holding 'curule dignity' will have the following rights:
1.1) The right to wear the toga praetexta.
1.2) The right to sit in the curule chair.
1.3) The right to address the Senate.

II. Haec lex nullo modo interpretabitur tamquam circumscribens magistratus quosquos dignitatem curulem gerant.

II. This law shall not be interpreted as defining in any way which magistratures possess curule dignity.

***
--- PROPOSAL IV FOR COMITIA POPULI ---

LEX ARMINIA EQVITIA DE IMPERIO

This law is intended to correct the use of an ancient roman definition in the Nova Roma legal system and to be a basis for present and future legislation.

I. POTESTAS
In Nova Roma, we understand potestas as:
1.1) Ius coercendi minor, the power to compel obedience in the name of the state, within the duties of the magistrate.
1.2) Ius edicendi, the power to issue edicts and nominate scribes.
1.3) Partial iurisdictio, the power to interpret the law within the duties of the magistrate holding the Potestas.
1.4) Ius contionem habendi, the power to hold a contio, including a question in a Comitia already called by a magistrate. The question must be included by the magistrate who called the comitia under the offical authority of the magistrate holding the ius continem habendi.

II. IMPERIUM
In Nova Roma, we understand Imperium as:
2.1) Having all right of potestas, as described before.
2.2) Ius agendi cum populo, calling the People to vote by any of their legislative Comitia.
2.3) Ius agendi cum senatu, calling to Senate to vote or placing a proposed senatus consultum into the Senate agenda.
2.4) Ius coercendi maior, the power to compel obedience using major force, on all Nova Roma subjects. In Nova Roma, this explicitly excludes physical force, and includes the force of law.
2.5) Full iurisdictio, the power to interpret the law, on all levels on all Nova Roma subjects.

III. TRIBUNICIA POTESTAS
In Nova Roma, we understand Tribunicia Potestas as:
3.1) The special powers held by a Tribunus Plebis, powers outside of and separate from Potestas and Imperium, as determined by the uses of the Mos Maiorum of Roma Antiqua or specifical legislation of Nova Roma.
3.2) The holder of the Tribunicia Potestas is not subject to any Potestas or Imperium when acting ex officio on its Tribunicia Potestas.
3.3) The Tribunicia Potestas possesses all the rights of Potestas defined in paragraph I above.
3.4) The Tribunicia Potestas do not grant automatically to its holder the concept of ´Sacrosainctness´ by the Mos Maiorum of Roma Antiqua or any lex or decretum in Nova Roma.

IV. OTHERS DETERMINATIONS
4.1) It is not within the scope of this law to define which magistratures have Potestas, Imperium and Tribunicia Potestas as described here.
4.2) All legal uses of the terms Potestas, Imperium and Tribunicia Potestas will follow the definition of this law.
4.3) This law recognizes the Imperium of two different magistrates have degrees, and the higher Imperium overrides the lower Imperium. However, the level of Imperium as compared to others shall be specified in the legislation attributing Imperium to a magistrature. Identical levels of Imperium within the same magistrature may veto each other.
4.4) Identical levels of Potestas within the same magistrature may veto each other.
4.5) The Imperium can have geographic boundaries. These boundaries will be called provincia. An Imperium within a provincia will have all the rights described by this lex, except paragraphs 1.1; 1.3; 1.4; 2.2 and 2.3. Imperium within a provincia also gains the right to be a representative of the Nova Roma government inside the Provincia on all subjects.

***

PROPOSALS FOR COMITIA PLEBIS
The text of the proposals will be separated by a ´***'

***
--- PROPOSAL I FOR COMITIA PLEBIS ---

LEX ARMINIA DE POTESTATE TRIBVNICIA AD COMITIA CONVOCANDA

Haec lex locum certum Legis Saliciae de Tribunicia Convocatione Comitiorum delicatura et usum legitimum iam Novae Romae exstantem sanctura est.

This law is intended to clarify a particular point of the Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Convocatione Comitiorum and to confirm a legal practice already used in Nova Roma.

I. Hac lege exponitur omnes res de modis Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum convocandorum etiam de potestate tribuni plebis (potestate tribunicia) ad ea convocanda agere.

I. This law explains that all matters concerning the procedures for summoning the Comitia Plebis Tributa also concern the power of the tribunus plebis to call them (potestas tribunicia).

II. Ex lege Salicia de Tribunicia Convocatione Comitiorum, temporibus certis tribuno potestas Comitiorum Populi Tributorum loco Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum est.

II. According to the Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Convocatione Comitiorum, a tribune has the power to summon the Comitia Populi Tributa instead of the Comitia Plebis Tributa on specific occasions.

III. Ergo haec lex omnes modos Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum convocandorum de lege ulla etiam de Comitiis Populi Tributis agere confirmat.

III. Therefore this law confirms that all procedures for summoning the Comitia Plebis Tributa regarding any law also apply to the Comitia Populi Tributa.

IV. Si Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Convocatione Comitiorum tollatur, aut tribuni potestatem Comitiorum Populi Tributorum convocandorum amittant, haec lex etiam tollatur.

IV. If Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Convocatione Comitiorum is revoked, or if the tribunes lose the power to summon the Comitia Populi Tributa, this law is also revoked.

***
--- PROPOSAL II FOR COMITIA PLEBIS ---

LEX ARMINIA DE MINISTRIS TRIBVNORVM

Hac lege notio adiutorum tribunis mori maiorum accessura est.

This law is intended to bring the concept of assistants for the tribunes closer to the ancient custom.

I. Qua de causa, omnes apparitores a tribuno plebis ut ei adiuvent nominati "viatores" appellabuntur.

I. All apparitores nominated by a tribunus plebis for his assistance shall therefore be called "viatores."

II. Viator edicto constituendus, et civis ordinis plebeiae esto.

II. A viator shall be nominated by an edictum, and must be a plebeian citizen.

III. Sicut in aliis legibus subtiliter enumeratur, viator apparitor tantum; non particeps potestatum peculiarum tribuniciarum, nec tribuni has potestates his apparitoribus delegare liceat. Potestate tribunicia sua autem, viator ut iussa tribuni exsequat delegetur.

III. The viator is only an apparitor [assistant], and does not share any of the special powers of a tribune, as specified in other legislation, nor may the tribune delegate these powers to these assistants. However, the viator may be delegated to execute the orders of a tribune within his potestas tribunicia.

***

In abstract, we will have the following agenda of voting:

--- Comitia Populi Tributa ---
1. LEX ARMINIA DE LEVANDIS CENSORVM ONERIBVS
2. LEX ARMINIA DE FOVENDA LINGVA LATINA
3. LEX ARMINIA EQVITIA DE DIGNITATE CVRVLI
4. LEX ARMINIA EQVITIA DE IMPERIO

--- Comitia Plebis Tributa ---
1. LEX ARMINIA DE POTESTATE TRIBVNICIA AD COMITIA CONVOCANDA
2. LEX ARMINIA DE MINISTRIS TRIBVNORVM

***

Again, I thank the gods by the oportunity and the people by the good-will. I put myself at the service of the citizens on commenting these proposals, answering their questions on public or particular (via lafaustus@...). I also want to thank our illustrious consul G. Equitius Marinus, also writter of some proposals under your appreciation.

Happy and rewarded, I adress to all the participation on the voting.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24966 From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Ave,

Your understanding is incorrect. The Victims vital organs are burned
on the Altar as part of the Ritual. If you can figure a way to burn
these without killing the victim then you have accomplished a very
remarkable feat.

The Religio Romana is an Orthopraxic religion, that means that Rituals
have to be done correctly in each and every detail.

You can't simply do what ever trips your trigger and call it a
correctly performed ritual of the Religio Romana. There is no gray
area, there is no wiggle room. If you don't perform each and every
step of the Ritual correctly then the entire ritual is invalid.

If a Ritual calls for the sacrifice of an animal and you omit that
part or substitute something else instead then you have performed that
ritual incorrectly.

If you know that the ritual calls for an animal sacrifice and you
ignore that requirement to do your own thing then you have gone beyond
a simple act of Imprudens, of an accidental misperforming of the
Rituals, you have comitted an act of Prudens Dolo Malo which can never
be expiated.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, lori bannick
<ravenwynterwonder@y...> wrote:
> If the Gods require a blood sacrifice you can always spill your own.
It is my understanding that the blood was all that was required,
not the actual death of the animal in witch case you supply the blood,
your own, and leave a cut of meat from the store or grain gathered at
the road side. Unless your sacficing to Baal the killing it is not
necessary just the spilling of the blood and if nothing else you can
always buy it, they sell doves blood etc.... in occult shops.
>
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus <drusus@b...> wrote:--- In
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> <christyacb@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious idea
> > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly illegal
> > in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind up in
> > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before that
> > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of the
> > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down to D.
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> This is an excellant example of the increadible self centerness, the
> egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
>
> Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who wasn't
> worth mentioning?
>
> The Immortals.
>
> We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings without
> even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We are
> susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals because
> of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-beleaver
> might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
>
> We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are expected
> to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements between Man
> and Immortal.
>
> The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's almost
> as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
> Pontifex
>
>
>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24967 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
I guess our newer citizens should actually take a bit of time to read the archieves to learn about the past.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Octavia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Here I was....


< accuses the candidate to be
mentally ill.

I mentioned no word of anyone's candidacy. And I gave my opinion, which I stand by.

<What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone candidates for
<Consulship?

That's definately worse than insinuating that a Consular candidate a slut because she was
virtually wearing a toga.... But oh, that's right, you weren't around last election.

<I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I hope also
<that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's official and
<public that one can't just behave like that.

You're completely right: two wrongs don't make a right. So if Pompeia Cornelia Minucia stops
making constant remarks about me in the third person when I am not even taking part in any
conversations with her, then I'll stop having the need to give my opinion about a person who seems
to have an obsessive hatred of me.

Vale,
Diana


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24968 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: The Strawman Argument.
Salve, Cato.

Around here the dividing line between *obey* and *worship* gets a bit
thin at times :)

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> Salve, Caesar.
>
> Actually, it's a law requiring Them to *obey* the Constitution,
> not "worship" it. Silly Caesar.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> <gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Drusus.
> >
> > I fully expect to see a law ordering the Immortals to worship the
> > constitution.
> >
> > Vale
> > Caesar
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> > <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aoctaviaindagatrix"
> > > <christyacb@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > For example, let's take the ever present and ever contentious
> > idea
> > > > of mandating animal sacrifice, (such as using taxes for it or
> > > > requiring it for certain ceremonies). While not strictly
> illegal
> > > > in most places, there are great many places where you'll wind
> up
> > in
> > > > a starring role on Animal Cops with your life in ruins before
> > that
> > > > is finally decided. B is certainly in place for a majority of
> the
> > > > civilized world that members inhabit. In lieu of that, C will
> > > > qualify to varying extents. For others, it may even get down
to
> > D.
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes,
> > >
> > > This is an excellant example of the increadible self
centerness,
> the
> > > egotism that infests the modern attitude about religion.
> > >
> > > Did any of you notice who was omitted from this diatribe? Who
> wasn't
> > > worth mentioning?
> > >
> > > The Immortals.
> > >
> > > We are expected to worry about some human's personal feelings
> > without
> > > even giving the wishes of the Immortals a passing mention. We
are
> > > susposed to order the Gods to accept a change in the Rituals
> because
> > > of some humans personal feelings or their worry that some non-
> > beleaver
> > > might look down on them if they do as the Immortals wish.
> > >
> > > We are susposed to treat the Gods of Roma as lackeys who are
> > expected
> > > to obey our whims while we ignore the ancient agreements
between
> Man
> > > and Immortal.
> > >
> > > The Hubris that moderns show towards Immortals is amazing, it's
> > almost
> > > as if they expect the Gods to worship them.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24969 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Here I was....
Oh my hell, not this again. Pompeia hates the lovely Diana Moravia. I
don't know why and I don't care. In the year I've been in Nova Roma,
Pompeia has been constantly harping on the subject. When I see one of
these messages, my eyes just glaze over. I've long since given up
praying it will stop. It won't. But, my advice to everyone else --
for what it's worth -- is just stay out of it.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave Omnes
>
> It's incredible. A moment later a person proposes her candidature
for an office
> someone (referring to a not better specified something the
candidate would have
> said sometimes in the past month and that the someone hasn't
actually read, but
> heard reported by a third or fourth person) accuses the candidate
to be
> mentally ill. What's next, a charge of pedophily as someone
candidates for
> Consulship? Just how low can you go?
>
> I hope the moderators will do something (I'm sure they will), but I
hope also
> that they will make a public statement about it, so that it's
official and
> public that one can't just behave like that.
>
> vale
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
>
>
>
> Scrive Diana Octavia Aventina <sacerdosveneris@y...>:
>
> > Salvete all,
> >
> > .....minding my own business and hardly even posting for a month,
when I hear
> > through the
> > grapevine that Pompeia Cornelia Minucia Tiberia Strabo is at me
again once
> > again mistelling
> > ancient history in Nova Roma in order to provide food for her
paranoia. I
> > haven't seen the email
> > because when I see her name, I click delete. I don't pay any
attention to
> > anyone who is so full of
> > hate and paranoia.
> >
> > In my opinion, I believe Pompeia is mentally ill. And I say that
in all
> > seriousness and without
> > sarcasm. Unfortunately for myself and everyone else who has to
read her
> > bandwidth, her illness
> > always seems to manifest in my direction. I only can hope for her
sake that
> > she sees a doctor.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Diana Octavia
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24970 From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position
Salve Sulla,

I'm very pleased that you're standing for this vacancy. You and I
have had some sharp disagreements in the past, but the good of Nova
Roma is more important to me than our few differences of opinion.
Your qualifications for office are outstanding, you have experience,
you have the knowledge, your vision is sound, and -- best of all --
you have all that free time you could be using for the benefit of the
Republic. With you as censor we'll all benefit. Thank you for coming
forward!

Vale,
Ambrosius Artorus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> I come before you to state my experience for the position of Censor
Suffectus. I believe that I will be the best candidate for the
position based on previous experience, computer experience and the
necessary time able to spend on the job.
>
> Part of the job of being Censor is having computer knowledge and
experience. I do. My experience ranges from DOS to Windows, from PC
to Macintosh. I have worked with all manner of computer systems, and
served as technical support for one of the largest Internet Service
Providers in the United States, Earthlink.
>
> Due to my personal circumstances, I will be able to devote the
majority of my time to the job through the completion of its term,
being available online and having few other obligations.
>
> My past experience in Nova Roma has also been wide and varied. I
have completed a term as Quaestor. I have completed my term as
Praetor. I completed my term as Consul. I also completed my full
term as Censor and as Consul for a second time. I run the
NR_Jewish_Sod, the Back Alley, the Nova Roma Laws list,
Paterfamilias list, and I have served as assistant and scribe to
various other magistrates and committees.
>
> Finally, if I am needed for any contact I am available via phone,
email, AIM (NovaRoman), Yahoo (L_Cornelius_Sulla), MSN
(corneliussulla@h...) and ICQ (2122309).
>
> Most Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24971 From: L. Cornelius Sulla Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position
Ave Gaius Ambrosius,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I am always ready to assist Nova Roma in any capacity that She needs. And as Censor I am more than willing to put in the necessary time and experience to get the job done satisfactorily and to help new members of Nova Roma get approved since we all want Nova Roma to expand and grow!

Also, I hope that in the future you and I will have more agreements and fewer differences of opinion.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Ambrosius Artorus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 8:29 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Qualifications for Censor Suffectus Position


Salve Sulla,

I'm very pleased that you're standing for this vacancy. You and I
have had some sharp disagreements in the past, but the good of Nova
Roma is more important to me than our few differences of opinion.
Your qualifications for office are outstanding, you have experience,
you have the knowledge, your vision is sound, and -- best of all --
you have all that free time you could be using for the benefit of the
Republic. With you as censor we'll all benefit. Thank you for coming
forward!

Vale,
Ambrosius Artorus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> I come before you to state my experience for the position of Censor
Suffectus. I believe that I will be the best candidate for the
position based on previous experience, computer experience and the
necessary time able to spend on the job.
>
> Part of the job of being Censor is having computer knowledge and
experience. I do. My experience ranges from DOS to Windows, from PC
to Macintosh. I have worked with all manner of computer systems, and
served as technical support for one of the largest Internet Service
Providers in the United States, Earthlink.
>
> Due to my personal circumstances, I will be able to devote the
majority of my time to the job through the completion of its term,
being available online and having few other obligations.
>
> My past experience in Nova Roma has also been wide and varied. I
have completed a term as Quaestor. I have completed my term as
Praetor. I completed my term as Consul. I also completed my full
term as Censor and as Consul for a second time. I run the
NR_Jewish_Sod, the Back Alley, the Nova Roma Laws list,
Paterfamilias list, and I have served as assistant and scribe to
various other magistrates and committees.
>
> Finally, if I am needed for any contact I am available via phone,
email, AIM (NovaRoman), Yahoo (L_Cornelius_Sulla), MSN
(corneliussulla@h...) and ICQ (2122309).
>
> Most Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24972 From: Decimus Iunius Silanus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Candidacy for Censor Suffectus
Salve Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia,

I must admit to a degree of surprise at your
declaration of candidacy for censor. It was only very
recently that you declared for praetor, and as far as
I'm aware, that is a situation that remains
unresolved. Would you mind my asking your reasons for
this change in course for which you have opted? It
does rather give the impression that you are seeking
office for the sake of it, rather than an active
desire to serve in one capacity or the other.

For my part, I would be rather uneasy if you were to
be elected for either or. You appear to have far too
many axes to grind for my liking. A shame, because I
was an ardent supporter of yours in the past and was
genuinely aggrieved when your previous tenure of
office came to an end.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus


---------------------------------
P. Minucia Tiberia Senatus Populesque S.P.D.

Our excellent Consul is quicker than I am (why he's
Consul :)), but
nonetheless, I hereby submit my formal declaration
that I am running
for Censor Suffectus,in service to Nova Roma, and to
our current
Censor, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.

Without repeating alot of things I have said
recently,I will cite the
essentials. I have served as Propraetor and Praetor
both for atleast
six months.

I am currently serving Propraetor Marcus Darius
Firmitus Canada
Orientalis as his Legatus.

I am also Scriba to Curule Aedile Marcus Iulius
Perusianus.

In the past I have served as Scriba Consula to Marcus
Minucius Audens,
and Scriba to the former Curatrix Sermona (list
moderator) P. Vedia
Serena.

I took over these responsibilities in part as
Praetor, and together
with my collegia T. Labienus Fortunatus, we wrote the
Edictum to allow
"informal" conversations in languages other than
English on the
mainlist, to allow better flexibility and
accessibility to same for
those whose English was not fluent, this being,
subject to our list
guidelines, and the prevailing Lex on formal documents
and
legislations, which have to be in English/Latin.

Together with my collegia, and sometimes individually,
we did our best
to input into the issue of Gens Reforms discussions of
2002, with as
careful attention to historically legal, religious and
cultural
precedents as practically possible for Nova Roma.

I served on the committee which organized the
inception of Sodalitas
Musarum. I also assisted Consul Audens and his staff
with the
foundations of Sodalitas Militarium and Sodalitas
Egressus.

Regardless of who might call me 'plastic' in this
regard (some did
when I ran for Praetor, and this is fine) I shall
pledge, as I did
when I stood for Praetor, that I shall donate $250.00
U.S. to the
Magna Mater fund in the event I cannot fulfill my term
of office.

I say this because I resigned in the past, and I wish
to display a
measure of sincerity in my running for office. A
couple of months
back, after two magisterial resignations, citizens
introduced for
discussion the idea of candidates posting money before
running for
office, and I thought it had some merit under certain
circumstances,
and especially applicable to me, since I resigned.

I am happy to answer any questions you may have of me,
privately or
publicly.

Valete..




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24973 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Re: Stinking fish (was: Re: The Strawman Argument.)
A. Apollonius Cordus to Cn. Iulius Caesar, and to all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Would it be terribly rude of me to ask that you give
some indication in your posts of who you are
addressing and what you are replying to? Only
yesterday I made a quite unnecessary response to a
message I took to be aimed at me but which was not,
and I rather fear I may be doing the same now.
Nonetheless I shall err on the side of self-defence.

In a different message - one which you did address to
me - you wrote:

> The Strawman Argument is a favourite tool of people
> who seek to
> deflect the focus from their beliefs. Teenagers
> frequently adopt this
> technique to avoid the questions of parents,
> especially when they
> have something to hide. Deflection and diffusion are
> terms that can
> equally be applied. It is a cheap trick of
> politicians the world over.

I really cannot understand why you are telling me
these things. I have not made any straw-man arguments,
not accused anyone else of making one, nor asked what
sort of people tend to use them.

> The use of the example of slavery, however well
> intentioned, was
> bound to de-focus the discussion from the Mos to the
> emotive. Using
> this example could lead those who haven't followed
> this discussion
> and probably countless others when this topic was
> raised, to believe
> that someone has been militating for this under the
> blanket of a call
> for a return to the Mos. This of course is false.

I have used this example because I simply cannot think
of another which suits my argument as well. The reason
it suits is partly that Senator Drusus, currently the
most vocal advocate of the 'possible and practical'
doctrine, has frequently and clearly expressed his
views on the subject. This is, in turn, probably
because it is, as you say, an emotive subject, and has
many times been raised in anger or intellectual
confusion, or even deliberately as a genuine
straw-man. I cannot think of any other Roman historic
practice which does not currently exist in Nova Roma
on which he has expressed his reasons for opposition
so clearly and consistently.

I do not believe that it is remotely inevitable for my
raising of the subject to give people the impression
that the Senator, or anyone else, has proposed
reviving slavery, since both he and I have carefully
stated precisely the opposite in almost every message
we have written on the subject. It would require a
staggering degree of stupidity or inattention to make
such a deduction from what we have written.

> As a tactic, it either achieved its end perfectly or
> added to the
> general perception that the Mos is linked to
> abhorent practices. The
> Mos as we know it in Nova Roma, frankly barely
> exists. That a small
> flicker of flame exists where it is concerned is
> amazing given all
> the disinformation and scaremongering that surrounds
> discussion of
> this topic.

Again, there has been no attempt on my part to defame
the mos maiorum, except inasmuch as I have suggested
that it was wrong in one particular respect. There are
many, many people who I have suggested over the years
are wrong in one particular respect, and none of them
have ever accused me of defamation. If you are worried
about the fact that I have linked the mos maiorum to
an abhorrent practice (if that is how you feel about
slavery - I never used those words), well, I am quite
prepared to own up to that. For me to deny that the
owning of slaves was part of the mos maiorum would be
an outright lie, and I am not prepared to tell such a
lie even in the interests of bolstering public respect
for the mos maiorum as a whole (which is certainly a
goal I strive after).

> It is a specious argument anyway to say Nova Roma
> gave this up. It
> did no such thing...

Indeed, and I hope you will acknowledge that I have
never said any such thing.

> So to say that based on these sort of examples we
> can willy-nilly
> bend and chop what is left of the Mos is again a
> specious argument.

As above, I agree, and I hope you will acknowledge
that I have never said any such thing.

> The Mos is in any case far more complex and involved
> than these
> simplistic examples of a few of its former
> constituent parts. You
> have to view the Mos in a holistic manner, not at
> the sub-atomic
> level.

True again, and this is an important reason why the
burden must be on anyone who proposes change - not
only a burden to prove that change is desirable or
necessary, but also a burden to say how such a change
may be effected without harming or distorting the
whole fabric into which the element which is to be
changed is woven. As the two of us have discussed
privately, this has been a failing of previous 'gens
reform' proposals - they have failed to understand
that the creation of a largely historical family
system requires not slight adjustments but a complete
overhaul of patria potestas, the criteria for being
sui iuris, the legal position of women in the family,
and so on. These things are inextricably connected,
but that does not mean that no change is ever possible
- it just means that change must be very carefully and
thoroughly planned, with the greatest possible degree
of scholarship and attention to detail.

I pass over your comments on 'opponents' of the mos
maiorum and the 'morass of legislation', for I do not
think they can possibly be aimed at me.

> It also presupposes that people on here are so
> gullible that they
> cannot recognise a stinking fish when they see one.

I must utterly disagree with you here. My argument
concerning slavery is based, like every argument I
have ever made, on the assumption that those who read
it are intelligent enough to understand them precisely
as I write them. If you are suggesting that I ought
not to discuss in a serious, honest, and logical
manner the subject of slavery because such discussion
will cause people to fear the imminent re-introduction
of slavery, or because it will cause people to lose
all control of their emotions and start fighting each
other in the streets, or because it will cause people
to regard the mos maiorum as a bastion of wickedness,
then I respectfully suggest that you, and not I, are
treating those people as too stupid, inattentive, or
emotionally unstable to cope with calm and rational discussion.





___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 24974 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-06-20
Subject: Stinking fish (was: Re: The Strawman Argument.)
Caesar to Cordus,

Ah..yes I see that in the salutation I had ommitted to address it to
the correct person - who was not you. I am on a very shaky hotel
connection that fails frequently and then one loses the lot. I
daren't even go back to check in case this thing crashes but I
believe Octavia ? I maybe mistaken - in which case apologies to her.

As none of my post was even remotely directed towards you - forgive
me if I don't reply to each point you made. We dialogue too well in
private for me to raise an issue with you (if I had one - which I
don't) on list.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Cn. Iulius Caesar, and to all
> citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> Would it be terribly rude of me to ask that you give
> some indication in your posts of who you are
> addressing and what you are replying to? Only
> yesterday I made a quite unnecessary response to a
> message I took to be aimed at me but which was not,
> and I rather fear I may be doing the same now.
> Nonetheless I shall err on the side of self-defence.
>
> In a different message - one which you did address to
> me - you wrote:
>
> > The Strawman Argument is a favourite tool of people
> > who seek to
> > deflect the focus from their beliefs. Teenagers
> > frequently adopt this
> > technique to avoid the questions of parents,
> > especially when they
> > have something to hide. Deflection and diffusion are
> > terms that can
> > equally be applied. It is a cheap trick of
> > politicians the world over.
>
> I really cannot understand why you are telling me
> these things. I have not made any straw-man arguments,
> not accused anyone else of making one, nor asked what
> sort of people tend to use them.
>
> > The use of the example of slavery, however well
> > intentioned, was
> > bound to de-focus the discussion from the Mos to the
> > emotive. Using
> > this example could lead those who haven't followed
> > this discussion
> > and probably countless others when this topic was
> > raised, to believe
> > that someone has been militating for this under the
> > blanket of a call
> > for a return to the Mos. This of course is false.
>
> I have used this example because I simply cannot think
> of another which suits my argument as well. The reason
> it suits is partly that Senator Drusus, currently the
> most vocal advocate of the 'possible and practical'
> doctrine, has frequently and clearly expressed his
> views on the subject. This is, in turn, probably
> because it is, as you say, an emotive subject, and has
> many times been raised in anger or intellectual
> confusion, or even deliberately as a genuine
> straw-man. I cannot think of any other Roman historic
> practice which does not currently exist in Nova Roma
> on which he has expressed his reasons for opposition
> so clearly and consistently.
>
> I do not believe that it is remotely inevitable for my
> raising of the subject to give people the impression
> that the Senator, or anyone else, has proposed
> reviving slavery, since both he and I have carefully
> stated precisely the opposite in almost every message
> we have written on the subject. It would require a
> staggering degree of stupidity or inattention to make
> such a deduction from what we have written.
>
> > As a tactic, it either achieved its end perfectly or
> > added to the
> > general perception that the Mos is linked to
> > abhorent practices. The
> > Mos as we know it in Nova Roma, frankly barely
> > exists. That a small
> > flicker of flame exists where it is concerned is
> > amazing given all
> > the disinformation and scaremongering that surrounds
> > discussion of
> > this topic.
>
> Again, there has been no attempt on my part to defame
> the mos maiorum, except inasmuch as I have suggested
> that it was wrong in one particular respect. There are
> many, many people who I have suggested over the years
> are wrong in one particular respect, and none of them
> have ever accused me of defamation. If you are worried
> about the fact that I have linked the mos maiorum to
> an abhorrent practice (if that is how you feel about
> slavery - I never used those words), well, I am quite
> prepared to own up to that. For me to deny that the
> owning of slaves was part of the mos maiorum would be
> an outright lie, and I am not prepared to tell such a
> lie even in the interests of bolstering public respect
> for the mos maiorum as a whole (which is certainly a
> goal I strive after).
>
> > It is a specious argument anyway to say Nova Roma
> > gave this up. It
> > did no such thing...
>
> Indeed, and I hope you will acknowledge that I have
> never said any such thing.
>
> > So to say that based on these sort of examples we
> > can willy-nilly
> > bend and chop what is left of the Mos is again a
> > specious argument.
>
> As above, I agree, and I hope you will acknowledge
> that I have never said any such thing.
>
> > The Mos is in any case far more complex and involved
> > than these
> > simplistic examples of a few of its former
> > constituent parts. You
> > have to view the Mos in a holistic manner, not at
> > the sub-atomic
> > level.
>
> True again, and this is an important reason why the
> burden must be on anyone who proposes change - not
> only a burden to prove that change is desirable or
> necessary, but also a burden to say how such a change
> may be effected without harming or distorting the
> whole fabric into which the element which is to be
> changed is woven. As the two of us have discussed
> privately, this has been a failing of previous 'gens
> reform' proposals - they have failed to understand
> that the creation of a largely historical family
> system requires not slight adjustments but a complete
> overhaul of patria potestas, the criteria for being
> sui iuris, the legal position of women in the family,
> and so on. These things are inextricably connected,
> but that does not mean that no change is ever possible
> - it just means that change must be very carefully and
> thoroughly planned, with the greatest possible degree
> of scholarship and attention to detail.
>
> I pass over your comments on 'opponents' of the mos
> maiorum and the 'morass of legislation', for I do not
> think they can possibly be aimed at me.
>
> > It also presupposes that people on here are so
> > gullible that they
> > cannot recognise a stinking fish when they see one.
>
> I must utterly disagree with you here. My argument
> concerning slavery is based, like every argument I
> have ever made, on the assumption that those who read
> it are intelligent enough to understand them precisely
> as I write them. If you are suggesting that I ought
> not to discuss in a serious, honest, and logical
> manner the subject of slavery because such discussion
> will cause people to fear the imminent re-introduction
> of slavery, or because it will cause people to lose
> all control of their emotions and start fighting each
> other in the streets, or because it will cause people
> to regard the mos maiorum as a bastion of wickedness,
> then I respectfully suggest that you, and not I, are
> treating those people as too stupid, inattentive, or
> emotionally unstable to cope with calm and rational discussion.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
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