> Ave,
>
> Why dont we just start having a tiered tax system which would be

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gaiusequitiuscato
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:50 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain

>
>
> G. Equitius Cato M. Biachio Antonio Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.
>
> salvete, virii.
>
> Great. Now I have to go get a horse. Thanks, gentlemen.
>
> Bianchius Antonius, I meant to sugest that there would be a

> annual donation to be an Equestrian --- say US$100 or something.
>
> Also, one of the actual merchants in the Ordo Equester could be
> chosen (if they wished) to act as a central clearing point for

> requests for subsidization. He/She would supply the actual

> to the sacerdote, and then could turn in those forms to the NR
> treasury say once a month (or whatever works best) for re-
> imbursement. That merchant could start with a certain amount of
> stock in specific items, purchased by the NR treasury to start

> then just maintain a rolling inventory of the most commonly-
> requested items.
>
> valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> <imperialreign@y...> wrote:
> > I would go for that. (Running the horse...I mean)
> > As to your questions, Cato, I support the idea behind both. I

> that if it is an official NR rite then the priest could submit

> reimbursment as long as the rite was posted so that we know it

> done (honour system).
> >
> > The Ordo Equester is supposed to tithe 10% of their earnings

> the NR treasury. I support making this official.
> >
> > M. Bianchius Antonius
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------

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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
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> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:05 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato Censore L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.

salve, Censor.

It might make sense; the question would be of what benefit would the
tiers be to those paying differing taxes? If I were to be offered
more voting points based on my taxes, that would indeed be a
benefit. But besides voting benefits (if that route is chosen) what
other benefits might accrue?

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Why dont we just start having a tiered tax system which would be
more accurate with the ancients? Its not like we have alot of tax
payers to begin with and the 12.00 a year just is not going to be
enough to accomplish anything.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gaiusequitiuscato
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:50 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain
Leges-Aurelianus
>
>
> G. Equitius Cato M. Biachio Antonio Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.
>
> salvete, virii.
>
> Great. Now I have to go get a horse. Thanks, gentlemen.
>
> Bianchius Antonius, I meant to sugest that there would be a
specific
> annual donation to be an Equestrian --- say US$100 or something.
>
> Also, one of the actual merchants in the Ordo Equester could be
> chosen (if they wished) to act as a central clearing point for
all
> requests for subsidization. He/She would supply the actual
articles
> to the sacerdote, and then could turn in those forms to the NR
> treasury say once a month (or whatever works best) for re-
> imbursement. That merchant could start with a certain amount of
> stock in specific items, purchased by the NR treasury to start
with,
> then just maintain a rolling inventory of the most commonly-
> requested items.
>
> valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> <imperialreign@y...> wrote:
> > I would go for that. (Running the horse...I mean)
> > As to your questions, Cato, I support the idea behind both. I
feel
> that if it is an official NR rite then the priest could submit
for
> reimbursment as long as the rite was posted so that we know it
was
> done (honour system).
> >
> > The Ordo Equester is supposed to tithe 10% of their earnings
to
> the NR treasury. I support making this official.
> >
> > M. Bianchius Antonius
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites:
> well call me Domina Urbana;-)
> Anyway this is not my idea but one I gleaned from the NRHispania
> list and the great cives there.
> why not put together all our knowledge about cheap flights, B&B's,
> good locations to stay for our various provincae to assist fellow
> cives in visiting?
> I think it's an excellent idea as I will be in Rome in September
> and I have masses of urls for Bed & Breakfasts in Rome that are very
> reasonable & good Fuscus has told me which are the desirable
> neighborhoods, this is invaluable.
> I also have the same for London. It is possible to stay in both
> place and pay approx $50 for a room!
> So this is my proposal and I hope it benefits all of us in Nova
> Roma to meet and make lasting friendships.
> bene valete
> M. Armina Maior Fabiana
>
> Propraetrix Hibernieae
> scriba Iuris ed
> Investigatio CFQ

> Well many people seem to be keen on building things. Unless they

>
> First class - $50.00 a year, Senators, Religio officers would be

> Second Class - $40.00 a year.
> Third Class - $30.00 a year.
> Fourth Class $20.00 a year.
> Fifth Class $10.00 - this would be cheaper than the current tax

>
> Citizens would then be able to purchase their way into the Class

>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gaiusequitiuscato
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:05 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain

>
>
> G. Equitius Cato Censore L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.
>
> salve, Censor.
>
> It might make sense; the question would be of what benefit would

> tiers be to those paying differing taxes? If I were to be

> more voting points based on my taxes, that would indeed be a
> benefit. But besides voting benefits (if that route is chosen)

> other benefits might accrue?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > Why dont we just start having a tiered tax system which would

> more accurate with the ancients? Its not like we have alot of

> payers to begin with and the 12.00 a year just is not going to

> enough to accomplish anything.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: gaiusequitiuscato
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:50 PM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of

> Leges-Aurelianus
> >
> >
> > G. Equitius Cato M. Biachio Antonio Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.
> >
> > salvete, virii.
> >
> > Great. Now I have to go get a horse. Thanks, gentlemen.
> >
> > Bianchius Antonius, I meant to sugest that there would be a
> specific
> > annual donation to be an Equestrian --- say US$100 or

> >
> > Also, one of the actual merchants in the Ordo Equester could

> > chosen (if they wished) to act as a central clearing point

> all
> > requests for subsidization. He/She would supply the actual
> articles
> > to the sacerdote, and then could turn in those forms to the

> > treasury say once a month (or whatever works best) for re-
> > imbursement. That merchant could start with a certain

> > stock in specific items, purchased by the NR treasury to

> with,
> > then just maintain a rolling inventory of the most commonly-
> > requested items.
> >
> > valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> > <imperialreign@y...> wrote:
> > > I would go for that. (Running the horse...I mean)
> > > As to your questions, Cato, I support the idea behind

> feel
> > that if it is an official NR rite then the priest could

> for
> > reimbursment as long as the rite was posted so that we know

> was
> > done (honour system).
> > >
> > > The Ordo Equester is supposed to tithe 10% of their

> to
> > the NR treasury. I support making this official.
> > >
> > > M. Bianchius Antonius
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------

> -----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

> of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:31 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato Censore L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.

salve, Censor.

I agree with the system you propose as far as making votes count
more the higher taxes you pay. However, I think the century-point
system should remain in place as well, as a safeguard at least until
we saw actual benefits accruing from the tiered system. I'm
assuming that in the tiered tax system, any citizen could
voluntarily pay whatever level they desired in order to get as many
points as they wanted? i.e., there would be no restrictions on who
could achieve "first class" status in re voting (you wouldn't have
to be a magistrate or religious official to do so).

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Well many people seem to be keen on building things. Unless they
are going to fund it out of their own pockets, it simply is not
going to happen. There was discussion in the past about
scholarships and other programs. 12.00 a year simply is not going
to achieve any fiscal goal that NR wants to do. The best way, which
is in line with the ancients, would be to drop the century point
system and adopt a fiscally tiered system. For example,
>
> First class - $50.00 a year, Senators, Religio officers would be
required to be in this class.
> Second Class - $40.00 a year.
> Third Class - $30.00 a year.
> Fourth Class $20.00 a year.
> Fifth Class $10.00 - this would be cheaper than the current tax
rate.
>
> Citizens would then be able to purchase their way into the Class
and their votes would be that much more important based upon the
class they chose.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gaiusequitiuscato
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:05 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain
Leges-Aurelianus
>
>
> G. Equitius Cato Censore L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.
>
> salve, Censor.
>
> It might make sense; the question would be of what benefit would
the
> tiers be to those paying differing taxes? If I were to be
offered
> more voting points based on my taxes, that would indeed be a
> benefit. But besides voting benefits (if that route is chosen)
what
> other benefits might accrue?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > Why dont we just start having a tiered tax system which would
be
> more accurate with the ancients? Its not like we have alot of
tax
> payers to begin with and the 12.00 a year just is not going to
be
> enough to accomplish anything.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: gaiusequitiuscato
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:50 PM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of
Certain
> Leges-Aurelianus
> >
> >
> > G. Equitius Cato M. Biachio Antonio Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.
> >
> > salvete, virii.
> >
> > Great. Now I have to go get a horse. Thanks, gentlemen.
> >
> > Bianchius Antonius, I meant to sugest that there would be a
> specific
> > annual donation to be an Equestrian --- say US$100 or
something.
> >
> > Also, one of the actual merchants in the Ordo Equester could
be
> > chosen (if they wished) to act as a central clearing point
for
> all
> > requests for subsidization. He/She would supply the actual
> articles
> > to the sacerdote, and then could turn in those forms to the
NR
> > treasury say once a month (or whatever works best) for re-
> > imbursement. That merchant could start with a certain
amount of
> > stock in specific items, purchased by the NR treasury to
start
> with,
> > then just maintain a rolling inventory of the most commonly-
> > requested items.
> >
> > valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> > <imperialreign@y...> wrote:
> > > I would go for that. (Running the horse...I mean)
> > > As to your questions, Cato, I support the idea behind
both. I
> feel
> > that if it is an official NR rite then the priest could
submit
> for
> > reimbursment as long as the rite was posted so that we know
it
> was
> > done (honour system).
> > >
> > > The Ordo Equester is supposed to tithe 10% of their
earnings
> to
> > the NR treasury. I support making this official.
> > >
> > > M. Bianchius Antonius
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit

While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be able to run
for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put a little money
aside each month for the following year, but if something is important you will
find a way.

A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly interested
will participate.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alexious@... writes:
Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work with a
tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact will be much
more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working. I think we
all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be workable if we
structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured more in line with
ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful your vote was.
By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include Proconsuls and
Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required to be in the first
class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are leading by
example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would automatically get the
Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people purchasing membership
in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary requirement to
increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now, NR is not
benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would not change in
this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the provinces would gain
more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that keep getting
discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed because we lack
the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work with a tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact will be much more
> important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working. I think we all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be workable if we structured it
> in such a way that the Classes were structured more in line with ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful your vote was. By making
> the Senators, Magistrates (This would include Proconsuls and Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required to be in the first class.This
> requirement will show to the People that we, are leading by example.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit
>
> While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be
able to run
> for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put a
little money
> aside each month for the following year, but if something is
important you will
> find a way.
>
> A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly
interested
> will participate.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work
with a
> tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact
will be much
> more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working.
I think we
> all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be
workable if we
> structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured more
in line with
> ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful
your vote was.
> By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include
Proconsuls and
> Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required
to be in the first
> class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are
leading by
> example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would
automatically get the
> Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people
purchasing membership
> in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary
requirement to
> increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now,
NR is not
> benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would
not change in
> this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the provinces
would gain
> more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that keep
getting
> discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed
because we lack
> the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.
>
> Hello, everybody.
>
> OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would

> the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would be
> done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-subsidy
> could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. ---

> come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our

> magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
> citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
> Days?)
>
> Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit

> magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout by
> virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary

> a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
> similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort of

> modern take on the patronage system :-)
>
> I like it.
>
> Cato says "so long for now",
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit
> >
> > While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be
> able to run
> > for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put

> little money
> > aside each month for the following year, but if something is
> important you will
> > find a way.
> >
> > A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly
> interested
> > will participate.
> >
> > Valete;
> >
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> >
> > In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > alexious@e... writes:
> > Well I think there can be a way of making the century points

> with a
> > tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal

> will be much
> > more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not

> I think we
> > all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be
> workable if we
> > structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured

> in line with
> > ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful
> your vote was.
> > By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include
> Proconsuls and
> > Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required
> to be in the first
> > class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are
> leading by
> > example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would
> automatically get the
> > Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people
> purchasing membership
> > in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary
> requirement to
> > increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right

> NR is not
> > benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that

> not change in
> > this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the

> would gain
> > more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that

> getting
> > discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed
> because we lack
> > the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve Cato,
>
> You like it because you want to pay for your horse to be Consul -
> admit it.
>
> Re the proposal: Sound. We have to clearly do something to

> funds as all this planning and planning and more planning is
> starting to seem like the British Liberal party always planning to
> be ready to form the government - which they last did in 1906 I
> believe.
>
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.
> >
> > Hello, everybody.
> >
> > OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would
> show
> > the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would

> > done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-

> > could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. ---
> and,
> > come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our
> highest
> > magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
> > citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
> > Days?)
> >
> > Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit
> the
> > magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout

> > virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary
> citizens
> > a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
> > similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort

> a
> > modern take on the patronage system :-)
> >
> > I like it.
> >
> > Cato says "so long for now",
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> > > Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem

> > >
> > > While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be
> > able to run
> > > for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I

> a
> > little money
> > > aside each month for the following year, but if something is
> > important you will
> > > find a way.
> > >
> > > A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly
> > interested
> > > will participate.
> > >
> > > Valete;
> > >
> > > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> > >
> > > In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > alexious@e... writes:
> > > Well I think there can be a way of making the century points
> work
> > with a
> > > tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal
> impact
> > will be much
> > > more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not
> working.
> > I think we
> > > all can agree with that. I think that this new system would

> > workable if we
> > > structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured
> more
> > in line with
> > > ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more

> > your vote was.
> > > By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include
> > Proconsuls and
> > > Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs)

> > to be in the first
> > > class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are
> > leading by
> > > example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would
> > automatically get the
> > > Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people
> > purchasing membership
> > > in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the

> > requirement to
> > > increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right
> now,
> > NR is not
> > > benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that
> would
> > not change in
> > > this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the
> provinces
> > would gain
> > > more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that
> keep
> > getting
> > > discussed year after year, which so far have only been

> > because we lack
> > > the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Good.
>
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gaiusequitiuscato
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:31 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain

>
>
> G. Equitius Cato Censore L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.
>
> salve, Censor.
>
> I agree with the system you propose as far as making votes count
> more the higher taxes you pay. However, I think the century-

> system should remain in place as well, as a safeguard at least

> we saw actual benefits accruing from the tiered system. I'm
> assuming that in the tiered tax system, any citizen could
> voluntarily pay whatever level they desired in order to get as

> points as they wanted? i.e., there would be no restrictions on

> could achieve "first class" status in re voting (you wouldn't

> to be a magistrate or religious official to do so).
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com ; NovaRomaProvinciae@yahoogroups.com ; mediatlanticaprovincia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:03 PM
Subject: [mediatlanticaprovincia] UPDATE - Comitia Populi Tributa called


Salvete Quirites,

As you will see below, there are changes to our agenda. First, because
of questions involving the provisions under which Flavius Vedius
Germanicus was readmitted to Nova Roma, I am withdrawing his name from
candidacy for the office of Curator Araneum. I thank Flavius Vedius for
being willing to serve, and ask that if anybody else is qualified to
fill the office, they please present themselves in candidacy.

Second, in response to the requests of those who asked for a more
comprehensive revision of the laws relating to the Vigintisexviri, I am
withdrawing the proposed LEX EQVITIA DE MVTANDIS APPELLATIONIBVS DVORVM
MAGISTRATVVM MINORVM and replacing it with the LEX EQUITIA DE
VIGINTISEXVIRIS, which will repeal two existing laws completely. It
will also provide part of the mechanism for a transition discussed
earlier wherein some of the current duties of the Censors will pass to
the Rogators, and the duties of actual vote counting and oversight will
pass to the magistrates who performed those tasks in antiquity, the
Diribitores and the Custodes.

Finally, in response to those who questioned the calendrical usage of
Quintillis and Sextillis, I refer them to the official interactive
calendar at http://www.novaroma.org/bin/calendar/cal Any who find this
usage confusing may simply substitute July for Quintillis, and August
for Sextillis.


Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, pullarius Gaius Iulius Scaurus has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia
Populi Tributa. The augury being favorable, I now call the Comitia
Populi Tributa for the purpose of electing one Quaestor to fill the
vacancy left by the resignation of Diana Octavia Aventina; one Curator
Araneum to fill the vacancy left by the resignation of Marcus Octavius
Germanicus, and to vote on a law that will correct two titles of minor
magistrates to better Latin forms.

The presidium shall be Pollia (Tribe XXI).

Due to the complications of the calendar at this time of year, the
Contio will not begin until a week from today. This will permit a
voting interval uninterrupted by dies fastus. Informal discussion of
the candidates and the law proposal may begin immediately, with due
regard to the religious calendar between now and the formal commencement
of the Contio period.

Schedule for the Contio and vote:

30 Quintillis (dies comitialis) Contio begins 00:01 Roma time
31 Quintillis (dies comitialis) Contio continues
1 Sextillis (dies fastus) Contio suspended 00:00 Roma time
2 Sextillis (dies fastus) Contio suspended until midnight
3 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Contio resumes 00:01 Roma time
4 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Contio continues
5 Sextillis (dies fastus) Contio suspended 00:00 Roma time
6 Sextillis (dies fastus)
7 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting for all begins 00:01 Roma time
8 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting continues
9 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting continues
10 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting continues
11 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting continues
12 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting continues until midnight
13 Sextillis (dies comitialis) Voting ends 00:00 Roma time


The candidate for the vacant office is


QUAESTOR (One position open)

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus, date of citizenship 2000/06/04
Caius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus, date of citizenship 2002/12/02

LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS

Preamble: In Roma Antiqua the Vigintisexviri - literally 'the twenty six
men' - were minor magistrates who handled much of the routine
administrative business of Rome. In Nova Roma we preserve the title
VIGINTISEXVIRI for the minor magistracies, without requiring twenty six,
and without restricting these magistracies to men.

I. The Lex Vedia Vigintisexviri and Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus are
hereby repealed. All Nova Roman laws, decrees, and edicts which make
reference to magistrates of the Vigintisexviri are revised to use the
titles defined below.

II. In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma, the following
minor magistracies are defined within the category of Vigintisexviri.

A. Magister Aranearius -- Webmaster. The magister aranearius shall
be responsible for the design maintenance and any alteration of the
official web site(s) sponsored by the State. The magister aranearius
shall solicit input from the other magistrates and institutions of Noa
Roma regarding content for the web site and shall have the authority
to appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary.

B. Editor Commentariorum -- Editor of the Written News. The editor
commentariorum shall be responsible for the production, publication, and
distribution of the official publications sponsored by the State. The
editor commentariorum shall have the authority to appoint his own
scribae, should he deem it necessary.

C. Rogatores -- Voter Registration Officials.

i. Until Kalendas Ianuarias MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005) four
rogatores shall be responsible for the administration of elections and
the recording of votes among the curia. Each rogator shall have the
authority to appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary. The
lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of, four
rogatores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
postpone a particular election, and the rogatores may divide their
duties amongst themselves as they see fit and practical. Since they,
by definition, are privy to the details of the election process, the
rogatores may not run for any elective office while they serve in office
as Rogatores.

ii. Beginning on Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005),
two rogatores shall be elected to act as subordinate magistrates to the
Censores, responsible for registering qualified voters, issuing voter
codes, and administering the routine citizenship application process.
During intervals when no Censores are serving in office, the rogatores
may carry out the routine maintenance of the Album Civium and the Album
Gentium in concert with the magister aranearius. Each rogator shall
have the authority to appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary.

D. Diribitores -- Vote Counters. Beginning on Kalendis Ianuariis
MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005), up to four diribitores shall be responsible for
the counting of votes among the curia. The lack of a full complement of,
or the active participation of, four diribitores shall not in and of
itself be sufficient to invalidate or postpone a particular election,
and the diribitores may divide their duties among themselves as they
see fit and practical with the approval of the Custodes. Since
they, by definition, are privy to the details of the election process,
the diribitores may not run for any elective office while they serve in
office as Diribitores.

E. Custodes -- Election Judges. Beginning on Kalendis
Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005), two custodes shall be responsible for
certifying the tally of votes in elections as reported to them by the
Diribitores and providing the results of elections by centuries or
tribes to the presiding magistrates of the elections. Since they,
by definition, are privy to the details of the election process, the
custodes may not run for any elective office while they serve in office
as Custodes. The lack of a full complement of, or the active
participation of, both custodes shall not in and of itself be sufficient
to invalidate or postpone a particular election. Custodes may, if they
choose, assist the Diribitores in the vote counting process. In the
event that there are no Diribitores the Custodes shall assume the duties
of Diribitores until sufficient Diribitores have been elected.

III. As minor magistrates, all Vigintisexviri shall possess the Ius
Edicendi, the right to publish edicta within the scope of their
magisterial duties.

IV. All Vigintisexviri shall be elected by the Comitia Populi Tributa
during the annual elections. The normal term of office for the
Vigintixesviri shall be one year. Suffectus (replacement)
Vigintisexviri magistrates elected to replace magistrates who are unable
to continue in office shall serve until the end of the year in which
they are elected.

V. If any of the minor magistracies of the Vigintisexviri become vacant
after the Ides of Septembris in a given year, the Senate may appoint a
suffectus to fill that magistracy for the remainder of the year in lieu
of holding an election in the Comitia Populi Tributa.



Valete Quirites,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Consul


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I can't say that I'm unhappy to see this. I think it shows best

>
> Pontifex, Senator, and Citizen Lucius Sicinius Drusus, I offer my

>
> Valete Optime in Pace Deorum,
>
> Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
> Citizen

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.

Hello, everybody.

OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would show
the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would be
done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-subsidy
could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. --- and,
come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our highest
magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
Days?)

Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit the
magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout by
virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary citizens
a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort of a
modern take on the patronage system :-)

I like it.

Cato says "so long for now",

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit
>
> While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be
able to run
> for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put a
little money
> aside each month for the following year, but if something is
important you will
> find a way.
>
> A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly
interested
> will participate.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work
with a
> tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact
will be much
> more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working.
I think we
> all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be
workable if we
> structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured more
in line with
> ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful
your vote was.
> By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include
Proconsuls and
> Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required
to be in the first
> class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are
leading by
> example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would
automatically get the
> Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people
purchasing membership
> in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary
requirement to
> increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now,
NR is not
> benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would
not change in
> this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the provinces
would gain
> more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that keep
getting
> discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed
because we lack
> the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Samantha
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


Yes, I can imagine that everyone paying so little probably does not
do wonders for Nova Roma. Considering that it is a yearly tax I would
be more then happy at paying 50 dollars. When it all works out, it
still is not all that much that one has to stash away. Even low
income as myself could afford that. I spend more month for my cable
and internet *lol*.
I would be particularly more interested if there were perks to paying
higher taxes. I think anyone would be. What is being proposed here
seems like a good idea to me.

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Good.
>
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work
with a tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal
impact will be much more important. Honestly, the current tax system
is not working. I think we all can agree with that. I think that
this new system would be workable if we structured it in such a way
that the Classes were structured more in line with ancient Rome, in
other words the more you pay the more powerful your vote was. By
making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include Proconsuls and
Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required to
be in the first class.This requirement will show to the People that
we, are leading by example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or
higher would automatically get the Eagle. Beyond that, I would have
no problem with people purchasing membership in the classes, even
newbies. If they want to pay the monetary requirement to increase
their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now, NR is not
benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would not
change in this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the
provinces would gain more money. This money can be used to fund the
projects that keep getting discussed year after year, which so far
have only been discussed because we lack the funds to actually
accomplish the tasks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gaiusequitiuscato
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:31 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain
Leges-Aurelianus
>
>
> G. Equitius Cato Censore L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.
>
> salve, Censor.
>
> I agree with the system you propose as far as making votes count
> more the higher taxes you pay. However, I think the century-
point
> system should remain in place as well, as a safeguard at least
until
> we saw actual benefits accruing from the tiered system. I'm
> assuming that in the tiered tax system, any citizen could
> voluntarily pay whatever level they desired in order to get as
many
> points as they wanted? i.e., there would be no restrictions on
who
> could achieve "first class" status in re voting (you wouldn't
have
> to be a magistrate or religious official to do so).
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Chat?


Since we're up, do you guys want to go into chat mode? it'd be
easier (and a first for me)?


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato omnes S.P.D., et ave Caesar!

OK, Caesar, so you've seen through my billiant plan. I guess I can
give the horse back now. If I can get him to move.

Sulla, how would this be brought about?

Sulla: It will be up to the Consul. I can write up a proposal and have it ready within a week, but it will be up to the consul to present it to the Senate and/or Comitia. It will be up to the Senate and Comitia to pass such a proposal. If there are going to be changes/modifications to the Century Points it will have to be presented to the Comitia.

And I'm serious about
supporting it IF the century-point system remains in place UNTIL we
see a definite benefit (oooh alliteration!) from the tiered system.

Sulla: This creates a slight difficulty. Who will determine the benefit? What determines if the benefit is substantial. Right now we have less tax payers than we did last year, from what I understand. In my mind this can only bring more benefits than the current system in place. Even if we have the same tax payers, there will be those like Magistrates, Senators and Religio Officers who will be required to be in the first class. The rest of the citizenry will have a choice on what they want to pay. But all of the classes, execpt the 5th will be paying more.

Can we introduce the tiers as supplementary point-givers at first?
Sulla: What exactly do you mean? make the tier system voluntary? Well if you do not pay the 12.00 you are already put in the Capiti Censi status.

I'd imagine this would require keeping the current tax level as is
(US$12.00), calling it the "Fifth Class" of both yours and Metellus'
suggested tiers. Remember, Romans hate innovations unless they're
attached to the familiar.

Sulla: I have not read Postimus's post yet. I do not have it yet, Yahoogroups must be running slow again. :)


valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Cato,
>
> You like it because you want to pay for your horse to be Consul -
> admit it.
>
> Re the proposal: Sound. We have to clearly do something to
increase
> funds as all this planning and planning and more planning is
> starting to seem like the British Liberal party always planning to
> be ready to form the government - which they last did in 1906 I
> believe.
>
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.
> >
> > Hello, everybody.
> >
> > OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would
> show
> > the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would
be
> > done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-
subsidy
> > could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. ---
> and,
> > come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our
> highest
> > magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
> > citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
> > Days?)
> >
> > Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit
> the
> > magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout
by
> > virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary
> citizens
> > a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
> > similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort
of
> a
> > modern take on the patronage system :-)
> >
> > I like it.
> >
> > Cato says "so long for now",
> >
> > Cato
> >

<Snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


Salvete Omnes,

> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work with a tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact will be much more
> important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working. I think we all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be workable if we structured it
> in such a way that the Classes were structured more in line with ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful your vote was. By making
> the Senators, Magistrates (This would include Proconsuls and Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required to be in the first class.This
> requirement will show to the People that we, are leading by example.

This tiered structure is something I had been thinking about over the past few months, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks on that same structure. Here's what I came up with:

First, the five tiers would correspond to the five classes, as above. All citizens would be required to pay a minimum tax to retain citizenship, and these would make up the fifth class.

Sulla: Ok.
In order to hold a magistracy with imperium, a citizen would have to be a member of the First Class, and thereby be paying the maximum tax liability.

Sulla: Ok.

Senators and curule magistrates, senior priests (pontifices, augures, epulones, Vestals, flamines, and any others the Collegium Pontificium deemed necessary), and Equestrians would have to be of the Second Class.

Sulla: I have to disagree. Senators and Magistrates should be required to be in the first class, the Senators are members of the Board of Directors and have a higher duty to lead by example. What better way to display this by requireing all of us to be in the First Class and to bear the burden of our class. In ancient Rome, Senators had a bare minumum financial requirement to be a Senator. This would be consistent with that. As for your expansion of the Senior Priests to include epulones, Vestals and Flamines I do not have a problem including them but as long as it is to be within the first class. These people are the leaders of Nova Roma, they should lead by example and bare the burden of their class.

Junior priests (sacerdotes, sodalitary priesthoods, and the remainder), non-curule magistrates, legates, and appointed offices other than apparitores must be of at least the Third Class.

Sulla: Honestly, beyond the leadership positions in the first class I do not have a preference on beaucratizing the lower levels of magistrates and priests. With utmost respect to these office holders and priests, they do not hold the dignitas and auctoritas that the leadership positions do and such I do not feel the need to require them to pay for the office. If they want to pay for their increased voting clout, Great! But they should not be forced to pay for the privlege. There already are laws on the books that compel magistrates and priests to be Assidui and that is good enough, with all due respect.

Apparitores would be of at least the Fourth Class. The basic, non-participant, capite censi citizen would be of the Fifth Class, and required to pay some tax.

Sulla: Please see above. :)

I think something like it would be worth our while, both financially and in building morale. Aside from that, if we ever do plan on making taxation a mandatory thing for all citizens, it's better to do it now and lose a few than do it later and lose a lot.

Sulla: I agree. I just do not want to overload the process and make it a bureaucratic nightmare. I think implementing the tiered structure is a major step in the right direction and the requirement of the leaders of the organization to lead by example will do wonders, and will probably slow down the disappearing magistrates that we seem to be encountering this year. I agree with your final sentence!

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


Ave,

That could only be done after the first year of enactment. We could make financial extrapolations based on current tax figures but they would be estimates. I think that being able to establish a couple small scholarship funds for college students, say 5 scholarships for $100.00 each would be a good start. I think you have potential longer term ideas but that is good. Right now, we know the projects we eventually want to fund. We now need to enact something feasible.

Honestly, the magistrates already will get the clout by having increased voting power being in the first class. Magistrates should not get paid, or get any subsidy. In ancient Rome magistrates gave to the state by doing building projects not by getting a salary/subsidy or an allowance.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.

Hello, everybody.

OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would show
the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would be
done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-subsidy
could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. --- and,
come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our highest
magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
Days?)

Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit the
magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout by
virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary citizens
a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort of a
modern take on the patronage system :-)

I like it.

Cato says "so long for now",

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit
>
> While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be
able to run
> for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put a
little money
> aside each month for the following year, but if something is
important you will
> find a way.
>
> A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly
interested
> will participate.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work
with a
> tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact
will be much
> more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working.
I think we
> all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be
workable if we
> structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured more
in line with
> ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful
your vote was.
> By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include
Proconsuls and
> Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required
to be in the first
> class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are
leading by
> example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would
automatically get the
> Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people
purchasing membership
> in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary
requirement to
> increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now,
NR is not
> benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would
not change in
> this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the provinces
would gain
> more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that keep
getting
> discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed
because we lack
> the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:37 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Current Scholarship Fund


Salve Sulla

Are you aware that we have $2700 in our current scholarship Fund? I do not know how one would get the funds but we do have some already.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


Ave,

That could only be done after the first year of enactment. We could make financial extrapolations based on current tax figures but they would be estimates. I think that being able to establish a couple small scholarship funds for college students, say 5 scholarships for $100.00 each would be a good start. I think you have potential longer term ideas but that is good. Right now, we know the projects we eventually want to fund. We now need to enact something feasible.

Honestly, the magistrates already will get the clout by having increased voting power being in the first class. Magistrates should not get paid, or get any subsidy. In ancient Rome magistrates gave to the state by doing building projects not by getting a salary/subsidy or an allowance.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.

Hello, everybody.

OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would show
the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would be
done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-subsidy
could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. --- and,
come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our highest
magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
Days?)

Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit the
magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout by
virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary citizens
a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort of a
modern take on the patronage system :-)

I like it.

Cato says "so long for now",

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit
>
> While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be
able to run
> for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put a
little money
> aside each month for the following year, but if something is
important you will
> find a way.
>
> A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly
interested
> will participate.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work
with a
> tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal impact
will be much
> more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not working.
I think we
> all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be
workable if we
> structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured more
in line with
> ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful
your vote was.
> By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include
Proconsuls and
> Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required
to be in the first
> class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are
leading by
> example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would
automatically get the
> Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people
purchasing membership
> in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary
requirement to
> increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now,
NR is not
> benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would
not change in
> this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the provinces
would gain
> more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that keep
getting
> discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed
because we lack
> the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus



----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato omnes S.P.D., et ave Caesar!

OK, Caesar, so you've seen through my billiant plan. I guess I can
give the horse back now. If I can get him to move.

Sulla, how would this be brought about?

Sulla: It will be up to the Consul. I can write up a proposal and have it ready within a week, but it will be up to the consul to present it to the Senate and/or Comitia. It will be up to the Senate and Comitia to pass such a proposal. If there are going to be changes/modifications to the Century Points it will have to be presented to the Comitia.

And I'm serious about
supporting it IF the century-point system remains in place UNTIL we
see a definite benefit (oooh alliteration!) from the tiered system.

Sulla: This creates a slight difficulty. Who will determine the benefit? What determines if the benefit is substantial. Right now we have less tax payers than we did last year, from what I understand. In my mind this can only bring more benefits than the current system in place. Even if we have the same tax payers, there will be those like Magistrates, Senators and Religio Officers who will be required to be in the first class. The rest of the citizenry will have a choice on what they want to pay. But all of the classes, execpt the 5th will be paying more.

Can we introduce the tiers as supplementary point-givers at first?
Sulla: What exactly do you mean? make the tier system voluntary? Well if you do not pay the 12.00 you are already put in the Capiti Censi status.

I'd imagine this would require keeping the current tax level as is
(US$12.00), calling it the "Fifth Class" of both yours and Metellus'
suggested tiers. Remember, Romans hate innovations unless they're
attached to the familiar.

Sulla: I have not read Postimus's post yet. I do not have it yet, Yahoogroups must be running slow again. :)


valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Cato,
>
> You like it because you want to pay for your horse to be Consul -
> admit it.
>
> Re the proposal: Sound. We have to clearly do something to
increase
> funds as all this planning and planning and more planning is
> starting to seem like the British Liberal party always planning to
> be ready to form the government - which they last did in 1906 I
> believe.
>
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.
> >
> > Hello, everybody.
> >
> > OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would
> show
> > the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would
be
> > done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-
subsidy
> > could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. ---
> and,
> > come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our
> highest
> > magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
> > citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
> > Days?)
> >
> > Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit
> the
> > magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout
by
> > virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary
> citizens
> > a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
> > similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort
of
> a
> > modern take on the patronage system :-)
> >
> > I like it.
> >
> > Cato says "so long for now",
> >
> > Cato
> >

<Snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> G. Equitius Cato M. Biachio Antonio Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.
>
> salvete, virii.
>
> Great. Now I have to go get a horse. Thanks, gentlemen.
>
> Bianchius Antonius, I meant to sugest that there would be a

> annual donation to be an Equestrian --- say US$100 or something.
>
> Also, one of the actual merchants in the Ordo Equester could be
> chosen (if they wished) to act as a central clearing point for all
> requests for subsidization. He/She would supply the actual

> to the sacerdote, and then could turn in those forms to the NR
> treasury say once a month (or whatever works best) for re-
> imbursement. That merchant could start with a certain amount of
> stock in specific items, purchased by the NR treasury to start

> then just maintain a rolling inventory of the most commonly-
> requested items.
>
> valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> <imperialreign@y...> wrote:
> > I would go for that. (Running the horse...I mean)
> > As to your questions, Cato, I support the idea behind both. I

> that if it is an official NR rite then the priest could submit for
> reimbursment as long as the rite was posted so that we know it was
> done (honour system).
> >
> > The Ordo Equester is supposed to tithe 10% of their earnings to
> the NR treasury. I support making this official.
> >
> > M. Bianchius Antonius

> Ave!
>
> You know, I would be doing the same exact thing as you. I would be

>
> Vale,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: AthanasiosofSpfd@a...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of

>
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Lucio Cornelio Sulla Felix salutem dicit
>
> While I am not a rich man, I would gladly pay $50 a year to be

> for office and serve our Republic. It would require that I put a

> aside each month for the following year, but if something is

> find a way.
>
> A tiered system will also ensure that only those who are truly

> will participate.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
> Well I think there can be a way of making the century points work

> tiered structure, but I think in the longer term the fiscal

> more important. Honestly, the current tax system is not

> all can agree with that. I think that this new system would be

> structured it in such a way that the Classes were structured more

> ancient Rome, in other words the more you pay the more powerful

> By making the Senators, Magistrates (This would include

> Propraetors) and Religio officers (Pontiffs and Augurs) required

> class.This requirement will show to the People that we, are

> example. Everyone who is in the 4th class or higher would

> Eagle. Beyond that, I would have no problem with people

> in the classes, even newbies. If they want to pay the monetary

> increase their voting clout, NR benefits financially. Right now,

> benefiting. Half the taxes goes to the provincies and that would

> this. So, the primary benefit would be that NR and the provinces

> more money. This money can be used to fund the projects that

> discussed year after year, which so far have only been discussed

> the funds to actually accomplish the tasks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:50 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Pay to Play ( a little joke)


Salve Sulla et al

A quick count of the "First Class" shows between 74 and 84 people would be included but some hold more than one "office" so lets say 70 X $50= $3500 per year. Not a bad start.

Sulla: I agree, it isnt a bad start. Considering according to the Aerarium Saturni, the tax payments we received for 2003 tax year was less than $2,000. (Using only the tax payment income from the Second and Third Quarter, since the first quarter did not record any tax payment income.) This increase alone would almost double our tax income and this is just from the first class alone, based on your estimated figures.
I still like the ideal of a bond to stand for election and I think your proposal SHOULD be in place for magistrates and the others taking or continuing in office as of January 1 2758.

Sulla: Honestly, I do not mind a bond to stand for office, at least if we do not have a new tax system in place. If we do have this tiered tax system in place, I think it will be sufficient, since those who are truly interested in NR would be paying the higher tax amount. But, if both are in place it really would not bother me in the least. If I was going to run for office I would pay a bond to stand for office.

They would know going into this years elections and they would have to pay within 30 days of taking office.

Sulla: I understand.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus



----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Call for Repeal & Revision of Certain Leges-Aurelianus


G. Equitius Cato omnes S.P.D., et ave Caesar!

OK, Caesar, so you've seen through my billiant plan. I guess I can
give the horse back now. If I can get him to move.

Sulla, how would this be brought about?

Sulla: It will be up to the Consul. I can write up a proposal and have it ready within a week, but it will be up to the consul to present it to the Senate and/or Comitia. It will be up to the Senate and Comitia to pass such a proposal. If there are going to be changes/modifications to the Century Points it will have to be presented to the Comitia.

And I'm serious about
supporting it IF the century-point system remains in place UNTIL we
see a definite benefit (oooh alliteration!) from the tiered system.

Sulla: This creates a slight difficulty. Who will determine the benefit? What determines if the benefit is substantial. Right now we have less tax payers than we did last year, from what I understand. In my mind this can only bring more benefits than the current system in place. Even if we have the same tax payers, there will be those like Magistrates, Senators and Religio Officers who will be required to be in the first class. The rest of the citizenry will have a choice on what they want to pay. But all of the classes, execpt the 5th will be paying more.

Can we introduce the tiers as supplementary point-givers at first?
Sulla: What exactly do you mean? make the tier system voluntary? Well if you do not pay the 12.00 you are already put in the Capiti Censi status.

I'd imagine this would require keeping the current tax level as is
(US$12.00), calling it the "Fifth Class" of both yours and Metellus'
suggested tiers. Remember, Romans hate innovations unless they're
attached to the familiar.

Sulla: I have not read Postimus's post yet. I do not have it yet, Yahoogroups must be running slow again. :)


valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Cato,
>
> You like it because you want to pay for your horse to be Consul -
> admit it.
>
> Re the proposal: Sound. We have to clearly do something to
increase
> funds as all this planning and planning and more planning is
> starting to seem like the British Liberal party always planning to
> be ready to form the government - which they last did in 1906 I
> believe.
>
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato says "hello" to everybody.
> >
> > Hello, everybody.
> >
> > OK. It could work. We would have to work out a plan that would
> show
> > the financial benefits of such a system to NR (i.e., what would
be
> > done with the money that came in? Perhaps the sacerdotes-
subsidy
> > could be one example, the Magna Mater Project another, etc. ---
> and,
> > come to think of it, if we could afford it, why not send our
> highest
> > magistrates, if they desired or on a rolling system, to meet the
> > citizens gathered in large numbers like in Italy at the Italian
> > Days?)
> >
> > Then, we'd have to show that this system would not only benefit
> the
> > magistrates, etc., who already (in general) exercize more clout
by
> > virtue of their offices/longevity), but also give ordinary
> citizens
> > a stronger voice. I can see citizens giving other citizens of
> > similiar viewpoints the cash to up their voting power --- sort
of
> a
> > modern take on the patronage system :-)
> >
> > I like it.
> >
> > Cato says "so long for now",
> >
> > Cato
> >

<Snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve Sulla et al
>
> A quick count of the "First Class" shows between 74 and 84 people would be
> included but some hold more than one "office" so lets say 70 X $50= $3500
> per year. Not a bad start.
>
> I still like the ideal of a bond to stand for election and I think your
> proposal SHOULD be in place for magistrates and the others taking or
> continuing in office as of January 1 2758. They would know going into this
> years elections and they would have to pay within 30 days of taking office.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:14 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Taxes


Salve

While I'm not against a remodulation of the taxes, I think we are overlooking
something:

50$/year may not be a lot for a working American or a German student, but it's a
load of money for, say, an Hungarian student or a recession-struck Argentinian,
without even considering the transfer costs.

In some country, even for a working person 50$/year is not a joke. It's nice
being able to say "I pay 120$/month for my cable, so what do I care for
50$/Year", but, as someone who has intensively travelled in East Europe (from
where we have no few cives, and we sure hope to have more), I can tell you that
what you are so lightly requesting sometimes is a full month's salary, or
more.

This whole discussion seems to be a tad american-oriented, to say the least,
which is not really uncommon, but considering we are talking about the taxes of
*all* the cives, I think a more international approach might be in order.

There is also another point, and I hate to restart a discussion already done in
the past, but I donot think it was closed in a real satisfying way that time:
Ok, let's say Nova Roma gets 5000 dollars a year by the new tax system (50$*100
people wanting to be in the first class)... and then? Hoping we'd not throw it
away by buying another absolutely useless piece of desert (with all due respect
and the gratitude due to tehone who gave it to NR, that's what the current ager
publicus is, right now), what we'd do with it?

I think that a clear understanding about what the money would be used for would
actually be an incentive at paying taxes. Right now, as much as I know (where
could one look at the Balances of Nova Roma?) the only funds that have been
employed have been used for the magna Mater Project (which is great) and for
the food at the Roman Days in the US (which is a tad less great, given, it
seems to me, that only a minimal part of the cives can get any material or
immaterial benefit from it). There's the scholarships' project, which sounds
great as well, of course, but I've heard of 500$.

And so, the vexata questio.. money, lots of money, for what?

vale

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis



Scrive Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...>:

> Salve Sulla et al
>
> A quick count of the "First Class" shows between 74 and 84 people would be
> included but some hold more than one "office" so lets say 70 X $50= $3500
> per year. Not a bad start.
>
> I still like the ideal of a bond to stand for election and I think your
> proposal SHOULD be in place for magistrates and the others taking or
> continuing in office as of January 1 2758. They would know going into this
> years elections and they would have to pay within 30 days of taking office.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> See, this is precisely why NR is in the same situation it was years ago. The
> same arguements are brought back out...that this is american-oriented. So,
> we are back to America vs. Everyone else? Why are you bringing out this
> strawman arguement?

> Look, over the past nearly 6 years many ideas have been discussed about plans
> people have for NR. NR simply does not have alot of money to accomplish
> anything. The only way its going to be done is by bringing in revenue. The
> most equal way of doing that is to charge taxes. Honestly, I have no problem
> setting up an application fee for people to join NR as well. Or setting up a
> bonding fee for magistrates to stand for office (as long as the fee was paid
> prior to standing for office otherwise I can just see a bureaucratic
> headache). If people truly want to see NR accomplish some of the goals that
> have been discussed its going to take money.

> So, D. Constantius are you saying you do not want to help NR progress beyond
> an internet organization?

>I want to see NR expand outside of just an
> internet organization.

> I would like to see more money go to the provinces.

> I would like to see NR help fund more meetings and gatherings, and a better
> marketing campaign.

> I would like to see NR set up a fund to help existing
> archeological digs, help students attend colleges and universities and help
> NR set up college clubs to attract students into the study of the past. This
> to me is far more important than just the acquisition of land. This is a PR
> campaign to get more members which in turn helps NR gain more money.

> Salve
>
> While I'm not against a remodulation of the taxes, I think we are

> something:
>
> 50$/year may not be a lot for a working American or a German

> load of money for, say, an Hungarian student or a recession-struck

> without even considering the transfer costs.
>
> In some country, even for a working person 50$/year is not a joke.

> being able to say "I pay 120$/month for my cable, so what do I care

> 50$/Year", but, as someone who has intensively travelled in East

> where we have no few cives, and we sure hope to have more), I can

> what you are so lightly requesting sometimes is a full month's

> more.
>
> This whole discussion seems to be a tad american-oriented, to say

> which is not really uncommon, but considering we are talking about

> *all* the cives, I think a more international approach might be in

>
> There is also another point, and I hate to restart a discussion

> the past, but I donot think it was closed in a real satisfying way

> Ok, let's say Nova Roma gets 5000 dollars a year by the new tax

> people wanting to be in the first class)... and then? Hoping we'd

> away by buying another absolutely useless piece of desert (with all

> and the gratitude due to tehone who gave it to NR, that's what the

> publicus is, right now), what we'd do with it?
>
> I think that a clear understanding about what the money would be

> actually be an incentive at paying taxes. Right now, as much as I

> could one look at the Balances of Nova Roma?) the only funds that

> employed have been used for the magna Mater Project (which is

> the food at the Roman Days in the US (which is a tad less great,

> seems to me, that only a minimal part of the cives can get any

> immaterial benefit from it). There's the scholarships' project,

> great as well, of course, but I've heard of 500$.
>
> And so, the vexata questio.. money, lots of money, for what?
>
> vale
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis

----- Original Message -----
From: Samantha
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:52 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes


I don't particularly agree with some of the points that you made. I
do believe that the money would be adjusted per area. Yeah it seems
like we were speaking in American dollars for Americans, but it
hardly translates into other money from other countries. Countries
were money is worth more or less, and the adverage income is
different. I do not think it was being Americanized at all, but
rather just getting a basis of conversation.
I also would not think it would be right to have more and people just
not pay taxes because of one reason or another. Nova Roma will not
make any money. I mean sure I would love it if I could go to the US
Government (an example here) and say.. well I am poor so I don't want
to have to ever pay to taxes. It dosnt' work that way unfortunately.

As for where the money is going. Well I know I certainly am not
partaking of any of the American events, or the European ones either.
I live too far away to really attend anything. I know it will be a
VERY long time before I get to see the temple to Magna Mater. So yeah
I can say that I am one of those people who are not reaping any sort
of financial reward. I could complain that money is not being
invested in ways that would assist me personally. That I should not
have to pay taxes, because not only can I not really afford it but am
not able to share in what they are spent on. I don't though. I think
that would be terribly self-serving. I happily pay taxes because I do
want to see Nova Roma become something more then what it is now, and
I quite honestly am not able to participate in any of it *lol*

However a point that I would agree upon is that it would nice to see
a plan on where exactly the money will be going towards, just for
curiousity sake :)

Respectfully,
Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> While I'm not against a remodulation of the taxes, I think we are
overlooking
> something:
>
> 50$/year may not be a lot for a working American or a German
student, but it's a
> load of money for, say, an Hungarian student or a recession-struck
Argentinian,
> without even considering the transfer costs.
>
> In some country, even for a working person 50$/year is not a joke.
It's nice
> being able to say "I pay 120$/month for my cable, so what do I care
for
> 50$/Year", but, as someone who has intensively travelled in East
Europe (from
> where we have no few cives, and we sure hope to have more), I can
tell you that
> what you are so lightly requesting sometimes is a full month's
salary, or
> more.
>
> This whole discussion seems to be a tad american-oriented, to say
the least,
> which is not really uncommon, but considering we are talking about
the taxes of
> *all* the cives, I think a more international approach might be in
order.
>
> There is also another point, and I hate to restart a discussion
already done in
> the past, but I donot think it was closed in a real satisfying way
that time:
> Ok, let's say Nova Roma gets 5000 dollars a year by the new tax
system (50$*100
> people wanting to be in the first class)... and then? Hoping we'd
not throw it
> away by buying another absolutely useless piece of desert (with all
due respect
> and the gratitude due to tehone who gave it to NR, that's what the
current ager
> publicus is, right now), what we'd do with it?
>
> I think that a clear understanding about what the money would be
used for would
> actually be an incentive at paying taxes. Right now, as much as I
know (where
> could one look at the Balances of Nova Roma?) the only funds that
have been
> employed have been used for the magna Mater Project (which is
great) and for
> the food at the Roman Days in the US (which is a tad less great,
given, it
> seems to me, that only a minimal part of the cives can get any
material or
> immaterial benefit from it). There's the scholarships' project,
which sounds
> great as well, of course, but I've heard of 500$.
>
> And so, the vexata questio.. money, lots of money, for what?
>
> vale
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave,
>
> The Aerarium Saturni currently serves as the repository of Nova

>
> The link is http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Samantha
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:52 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> thankyou for providing a link to satisfy my curiousity. I will look
> at that then :)
>
> Lucia Modia Lupa
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > The Aerarium Saturni currently serves as the repository of Nova
> Roma's financial documents. It includes our yearly budges and our
> financial reports. It is current up to the third quarter of 2003.
> >
> > The link is http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Samantha
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:52 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms

> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I read fast and got the point even faster. It appears that the

> is so low, that there isn't much of anything left over. Just the
> basic bills for running everything.
> Granted perhaps there should be some sort of plans.. or rather

> to be set for the future. But until the revenues increase how in

> world does anyone hope that Nova Roma will be able to satisfy even
> what a portion of the people want. If we want something really good
> back from this, we are going to have to put more into it.
> Aside from my own temple project, I will happily pay 50 dollars a
> month plus donate monthly what i can spare. Whether it be

> from Nova Roma venders.. or whatever have you.
> This is ridiculous. It is like having a dollar for 5 kids to share.
> As the eldest of five children.. I will vouch for the fact that it
> don't work *lol*.
> I am firmly in support of increasing taxes. But that is my opinion.
>
> Lucia Modia Lupa
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha"

> wrote:
> > thankyou for providing a link to satisfy my curiousity. I will

> > at that then :)
> >
> > Lucia Modia Lupa
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
> > <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > > Ave,
> > >
> > > The Aerarium Saturni currently serves as the repository of Nova
> > Roma's financial documents. It includes our yearly budges and

> > financial reports. It is current up to the third quarter of

> > >
> > > The link is http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Samantha
> > > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:52 AM
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------

> --
> > ----------
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
> > >
> > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

> of
> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I don't particularly agree with some of the points that you made. I
> do believe that the money would be adjusted per area. Yeah it seems
> like we were speaking in American dollars for Americans, but it
> hardly translates into other money from other countries. Countries
> were money is worth more or less, and the adverage income is
> different. I do not think it was being Americanized at all, but
> rather just getting a basis of conversation.

> I also would not think it would be right to have more and people just
> not pay taxes because of one reason or another. Nova Roma will not
> make any money. I mean sure I would love it if I could go to the US
> Government (an example here) and say.. well I am poor so I don't want
> to have to ever pay to taxes. It dosnt' work that way unfortunately.

> As for where the money is going. Well I know I certainly am not
> partaking of any of the American events, or the European ones either.
> I live too far away to really attend anything. I know it will be a
> VERY long time before I get to see the temple to Magna Mater. So yeah
> I can say that I am one of those people who are not reaping any sort
> of financial reward. I could complain that money is not being
> invested in ways that would assist me personally. That I should not
> have to pay taxes, because not only can I not really afford it but am
> not able to share in what they are spent on. I don't though. I think
> that would be terribly self-serving. I happily pay taxes because I do
> want to see Nova Roma become something more then what it is now, and
> I quite honestly am not able to participate in any of it *lol*
>
> However a point that I would agree upon is that it would nice to see
> a plan on where exactly the money will be going towards, just for
> curiousity sake :)

> Respectfully,
> Lucia Modia Lupa

----- Original Message -----
From: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes



Ave Modia Lupa

Scrive Samantha <lucia_modia_lupa@...>:
> I don't particularly agree with some of the points that you made. I
> do believe that the money would be adjusted per area. Yeah it seems
> like we were speaking in American dollars for Americans, but it
> hardly translates into other money from other countries. Countries
> were money is worth more or less, and the adverage income is
> different. I do not think it was being Americanized at all, but
> rather just getting a basis of conversation.

The fact is, we all pay taxes in dollars.

Sulla: Actually, we do not. The taxes are currently factored based on each citizen's country of residence. I can pull the Consul's edict which broke down the figure per country if you need to be refreshed.

As I said to Sulla, I wouldn't have
had anything to say if the "factorized" term had been used right away, meaning
that we weren't talking of a fixed sum, but rather of "buying power", but it
wasn't. To make an example, 50$ for an american can very well be the equivalend
of 1.000$ to a Serbian. I have friends who live with less than that in a month
and we are not talking of homeless people, but people exaclty like you and me,
with an education, house and so on. It kinda hit a nerve to see people talk so
lightly about money without, apparently, giving any consideration to the
different situations.

Sulla: And just how many Serbs pay taxes to NR? Compared to how many French, Italians, Americans, English and Canadian. I can bet you the precentage would be rather small. I remember when we first talked of implementing a 12.00 tax that people complained about this very thing. You know what, NR does not have enough money to accomplish the goals that have been discussed. So, we bring in a tiered tax system, give each citizen the chance to pay for the class they want to be in. If they can only afford to be in the 5th Class (which again is cheaper than the current tax rate) great. If they want to pay more to be in a better class, Wonderful. If you cannot pay 12.00 a year I have to ask, why are your on the net? Your money would be better of going to some other ventue and perhaps your time would be better spent as well.

> I also would not think it would be right to have more and people just
> not pay taxes because of one reason or another. Nova Roma will not
> make any money. I mean sure I would love it if I could go to the US
> Government (an example here) and say.. well I am poor so I don't want
> to have to ever pay to taxes. It dosnt' work that way unfortunately.

It doesn't? As far as I know (but of course I an be wrong), you pay taxes
depending on your incomes, and thee is a no-tax zone, meaning you do not pay
taxes if you do not earn a minimum.

Sulla: Your wrong. There is no such thing as a no-tax zone. Everyone pays taxes if you do not file a tax return you will be breaking the law. Now there might be deductions and refunds for overpayments, but tax avoidance, in the US is a crime. Tax Deferral, now thats another story. :)

In any case, I wasn't talking of people not
paying taxes having the same right of people paying them, I was talking of
weighting the taxes depending the economical situation.

Sulla: So, if your economic situation is difficult pay on the lower class. That is why there would be 5 classes and 5 separate fees this way you can choose the class based on your economic situation and how much you want to send to NR.

We live in countries
that have different cost of living, different economies and stuff, and I doubt
you'd like to see someone penalized within Nova Roma only becaue he had teh
"misfortune" of having been born in Brazil or Cyprus and therefore being
objectively less rich in an absolute (while relatively they might even be at
the same level) way than an American (for the citizens of Brazil and Cyprus,
not the "".. I do not actually think having been born there is a misfortune).

Sulla: So, if your economic situation is difficult pay on the lower class. That is why there would be 5 classes and 5 separate fees. Just as in the ancient times, not everyone could afford to be in the first class. If you can afford to pay for it and want to pay for it, you will. If you cannot, there are alternatives. Become a member of the Second class, or the 4th class. Right now the field is absoutely equal and NR only has about 200 tax payers, doesnt seem to me that the current system is providing any substantial benefits for NR. If 80% of the citizens paid taxes, we wouldnt be having this conversation this very moment. But right now our tax base is barely 10-15% of the population. That is nothing. The Tax structure must be changed. Lets make it closer to the ancients. Lets increase NR's revenues.

> As for where the money is going. Well I know I certainly am not
> partaking of any of the American events, or the European ones either.
> I live too far away to really attend anything. I know it will be a
> VERY long time before I get to see the temple to Magna Mater. So yeah
> I can say that I am one of those people who are not reaping any sort
> of financial reward. I could complain that money is not being
> invested in ways that would assist me personally. That I should not
> have to pay taxes, because not only can I not really afford it but am
> not able to share in what they are spent on. I don't though. I think
> that would be terribly self-serving. I happily pay taxes because I do
> want to see Nova Roma become something more then what it is now, and
> I quite honestly am not able to participate in any of it *lol*
>
> However a point that I would agree upon is that it would nice to see
> a plan on where exactly the money will be going towards, just for
> curiousity sake :)

We agree on that, Modia Lupa. I'm not saying that money should be spent only
where it "gets back" to the cives who have put them in, that would be absurd,
but there should be an idea of how to invest them before putting them together.
I'd like to know if my 50$ (or 30 euros, or whatever) are going to be used
exclusively for buying the food for the ones who are so blessed to be around
the X place, or if they will be spent only for the magna Mater Project, or if
they will be used for Scholarships in teh United States or in Europe or in
South America. It's too hard to put down a detailed list? ok, then something
like

Sulla: I posted the link to the Aerarium Saturni, you can check there.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> The fact is, we all pay taxes in dollars.
>
> Sulla: Actually, we do not. The taxes are currently factored based on
> each citizen's country of residence. I can pull the Consul's edict which
> broke down the figure per country if you need to be refreshed.

>
> As I said to Sulla, I wouldn't have
> had anything to say if the "factorized" term had been used right away,
> meaning
> that we weren't talking of a fixed sum, but rather of "buying power", but
> it
> wasn't. To make an example, 50$ for an american can very well be the
> equivalend
> of 1.000$ to a Serbian. I have friends who live with less than that in a
> month
> and we are not talking of homeless people, but people exaclty like you and
> me,
> with an education, house and so on. It kinda hit a nerve to see people talk
> so
> lightly about money without, apparently, giving any consideration to the
> different situations.
>
> Sulla: And just how many Serbs pay taxes to NR? Compared to how many
> French, Italians, Americans, English and Canadian. I can bet you the
> precentage would be rather small.

> I remember when we first talked of
> implementing a 12.00 tax that people complained about this very thing. You
> know what, NR does not have enough money to accomplish the goals that have
> been discussed. So, we bring in a tiered tax system, give each citizen the
> chance to pay for the class they want to be in. If they can only afford to
> be in the 5th Class (which again is cheaper than the current tax rate) great.
> If they want to pay more to be in a better class, Wonderful.

> If you cannot
> pay 12.00 a year I have to ask, why are your on the net?

> Your money would be
> better of going to some other ventue and perhaps your time would be better
> spent as well.

> > I also would not think it would be right to have more and people just
> > not pay taxes because of one reason or another. Nova Roma will not
> > make any money. I mean sure I would love it if I could go to the US
> > Government (an example here) and say.. well I am poor so I don't want
> > to have to ever pay to taxes. It dosnt' work that way unfortunately.
>
> It doesn't? As far as I know (but of course I an be wrong), you pay taxes
> depending on your incomes, and thee is a no-tax zone, meaning you do not
> pay
> taxes if you do not earn a minimum.
>
> Sulla: Your wrong. There is no such thing as a no-tax zone. Everyone
> pays taxes if you do not file a tax return you will be breaking the law. Now
> there might be deductions and refunds for overpayments, but tax avoidance, in
> the US is a crime. Tax Deferral, now thats another story. :)

> In any case, I wasn't talking of people not
> paying taxes having the same right of people paying them, I was talking of
> weighting the taxes depending the economical situation.
>
> Sulla: So, if your economic situation is difficult pay on the lower class.
> That is why there would be 5 classes and 5 separate fees this way you can
> choose the class based on your economic situation and how much you want to
> send to NR.