> G. Equitius Cato L. Modiae Lupae S.D.
>
> Salve, Modia Lupa.
>
> This is EXACTLY what I meant by the patronage system. If there was

> citizen who was perfectly qualified to hold office but was unable

> afford the tax tier necessary, they could seek a patron, someone

> whose politics and personality they felt comfortable. I know I'd

> willing to support a citizen or citizens in need.
>
> vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha"

> wrote:
> > This may be kind of a silly idea. I know that one thing that has
> been
> > mentioned is not only are some people willing to help out those

> > genuinely need the assistance, but also the concern that those

> > countries that are not considered as wealthy would have problems
> > acquiring positions that they would be suited for, and so a

> > loss to Nova Roma. I have taken these two things and sort of had

> > thought.
> > Those that are truly within need and absolutely can not pay the

> > but have shown themselves to friends and supporters as being very
> > capable, well-deserving, and benefit to Nova Roma... if their
> friends
> > and supporters are willing.. could they not raise the funds

> > themselves to help this person get to the tax bracket that they
> need
> > to be in?
> > IF one had to pay 100 dollars to be a Senator, but simply did not
> > have 100 dollars per year.. say could only come up with about

> or
> > 15. Could they not enlist the support of those who support them?
> >
> > I don't know. I know if I knew someone that admired, liked and
> > thought would do great within the religio priesthood, and all

> > was stopping them was taxes. I would work hard to make sure that
> > person had the money they needed.
> >
> > But it is just a thought. Thinking out loud and all :)
> >
> > Lucia Modia Lupa
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Caius Ianus Flaminius"
> > <caius_ianus@y...> wrote:
> > > Avete omnes,
> > >
> > > I read a lot of words about the need to enter in the real world
> and
> > so on...but when Marcus Iulius Perusianus sent the first Magna
> Mater
> > Bulletin I remember that only a very few citizen replied to him,
> and
> > the others continued to talk about VIRTUAL and silly things.
> > Perusianus contacted a real teacher in a real University in the
> real
> > Rome and organized a special event in the real Palatium...yes, it
> is
> > not the refoundation of Rome but I think it's a very good

> > point.
> > >
> > > Ok, there is a need of money, sure, but I think that there is a
> > need of moral honesty too.
> > >
> > > Valete
> > > Caius Ianus Flaminius
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I, Lucius Martainus Paullus withdraw my Resignation from Nova Roma.

> Thank you,
> Luci
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinius Drusus S.D.
>

>
> The Treasury would then be divided as follows:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Dobbins" <drusus@b...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The Treasury would then be divided as follows:
>
> The Treasury will be divided as per section V B of Nova Roma's
> Constutition.
>
> The Senate shall exercise control over the aerarium (treasury) and
> shall oversee the financial endeavors, health, and policy of the
state.
>
> 1. No later than the last day of November of each year, the
Senate
> shall prepare a budget for the following year. This budget shall
deal
> with the disbursement of funds from the aerarium to the quaestors
for
> various purposes. Even though the quaestors assigned to the consuls
> shall be responsible for the maintenance of the entire treasury, no
> funds from it may be disbursed without the prior approval of the
> Senate. The Senate may, as required by changing circumstances, pass
> supplemental Senatus consulta to modify the annual budget.
> 2. The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, impose taxes, fees, or
> other financial requirements on the citizens in order to maintain
the
> financial welfare of the state.
>
> Leagaly Nova Roma is and will remain a not for profit cooperation,
and
> tying the hands of the BoD (Senate) will undermine the cooperation.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus

> Curious. I doesn't seem to just be modeled on Roman antiquity, but

> get the distinct impression it was modeled somewhat after Nova

> Perhaps a few ex-citizens of Nova Roma are involved?
>
> -Kaelus Iulius

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:07 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Tax System


G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio druso S.D.

Salve, Sicinius drusus.

So WE CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION. C'mon, Drusus, work with me here.
YOU can't have your cake and eat it too either. You have to give a
little, be flexible, use your imagination. It will *not* "undermine
the cooporation [sic - read 'corporation']" by any stretch of the
imagination to disburse a certain amount of the funds available in a
regulated way. It's not the Senate's money, it's the citizens'.

vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Dobbins" <drusus@b...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The Treasury would then be divided as follows:
>
> The Treasury will be divided as per section V B of Nova Roma's
> Constutition.
>
> The Senate shall exercise control over the aerarium (treasury) and
> shall oversee the financial endeavors, health, and policy of the
state.
>
> 1. No later than the last day of November of each year, the
Senate
> shall prepare a budget for the following year. This budget shall
deal
> with the disbursement of funds from the aerarium to the quaestors
for
> various purposes. Even though the quaestors assigned to the consuls
> shall be responsible for the maintenance of the entire treasury, no
> funds from it may be disbursed without the prior approval of the
> Senate. The Senate may, as required by changing circumstances, pass
> supplemental Senatus consulta to modify the annual budget.
> 2. The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, impose taxes, fees, or
> other financial requirements on the citizens in order to maintain
the
> financial welfare of the state.
>
> Leagaly Nova Roma is and will remain a not for profit cooperation,
and
> tying the hands of the BoD (Senate) will undermine the cooperation.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ave Cato,
>
> You cannot change that particular section of the Constitution

>
> The Senate controls the purse strings, in Nova Roma, just as it

>
> If your proposal happened to make it to the Senate in its current

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 8:09 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Tax System


G. Equitius Cato L. Cornelio Sullae Felix S.D.

salve, Corneilius Sulla.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Cato,
>
> You cannot change that particular section of the Constitution
without it having ramifications in Nova Roma's not for profit
status. The Board of Directors of Nova Roma is the Senate. And
there are legal ramifications regarding the status of board of
directors that regular citizens do not have to carry. Part of this
responsibility is displayed with the Articles of incorporation,
Section III and IV, not to mention the Board of Directors
responsibility as specified by the Laws of the State of Maine.

CATO Nope. The articles of incorporation, and Maine State Law, have
nothing to do with how we allocate funds within our organization. I
know this stuff; I've written and amended the By-Laws and papers of
incorporation for 501(3)c organizations in three states.

In suggesting allocations, I am responding to the requests by
several citizens that there be an accounting for where the increased
revenue would go.

Sulla: You are posting the same thing on the Back Alley. So, let me respond by saying nearly the same exact thing on the Back Alley. There already is a place where citizens can see the budgetary allocations of Nova Roma. I posted the link to the Aerarium Saturni. As a matter of fact I posted it twice this week alone. You went further by defacto declaring this is precisely where the funds are going to go, without any discretionary input from the Senate, that is not how the system works in Nova Roma, nor is it how it worked in Republican Rome.

Amending the Constitution is entirely within our abilities.

>
> The Senate controls the purse strings, in Nova Roma, just as it
was done during the Republic. The Senate is composed of Nova Roma's
leading citizens, what are you going to do next? Suggest an
Imperator? Also, I hope you realize that any change in the
Constitution, would require a 2/3 vote of approval in the Senate.
Do you really think that the Senate of Nova Roma will simply vote to
massively reduce their ability to have their say in how Nova Roma's
assets are distributed? Remember, the Senators are citizens of Nova
Roma too!

CATO: Which is more important: the Senate holding onto this
particular straw power or actually furthering the goal of Nova Roma,
O Censor? Would it be so terrible for the Senate to allow the
citizens a say in the results of their taxpaying?


Sulla: The first part of your plan, does that. The Second part hand ties Nova Roma and does not help NR in helping to achieve its goals, as a matter of fact it handties NR to a few currently existing projects. What if there is embezzlement, there already has been a case of that in NR's past. Or other forms of financial mismanagement. Your plan hamstrings NR. Instead in the current system the Board of Directors have oversight ability and the ability to curtail any possible abuses. What you do not seem to realize is that the citizens already have a say in the results of their taxpaying, they elect represenatives in the magistrates who actually prepare the budget. Unless you are saying that the Consuls do not represent the People?

>
> If your proposal happened to make it to the Senate in its current
form, I would have to vote against it. And, I would have to urge
the Tribunes to veto it since it is their responsibility to veto
items that are against the spirit and/or letter of this Constitution
(IV.7.a)

CATO: See, the thing is, you have to be prepared to give an over-
arching view of the benefits/responsibilities that come with
sweeping tax changes. If you approach it piecemeal, as much is in
Nova Roma, you run into the kind of legislative morass that Drusus
despises so much.

Sulla: Actually we already do, have you read the Constitution? Section V.B.1 states, the following:
1.. No later than the last day of November of each year, the Senate shall prepare a budget for the following year. This budget shall deal with the disbursement of funds from the aerarium to the quaestors for various purposes. Even though the quaestors assigned to the consuls shall be responsible for the maintenance of the entire treasury, no funds from it may be disbursed without the prior approval of the Senate. The Senate may, as required by changing circumstances, pass supplemental Senatus consulta to modify the annual budget.
Sulla: Each budget can be viewed from: http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html

You end up with one law that amends another law that intended to fix
a problem created when another law was amended to fix a problem with
another law.

Sulla: This clearly does not apply to the Senate and its budgetmaking, instead what you describe is a problem of the Lex Salicia Poenalis and the Lex Salicia Iudiaciaria (sp.)

With my suggestion, we go from soup to nuts, or as Ovid would say ab
ovo usque ad mala. We say what we want to do, why we want to do it,
and how it will affect the organization as a whole. Not just "we
need more money".

Sulla: I think your suggestion has gone way to far. For a revision of the Lex Salicias, what you describe would be fine. To diminish the role of the Senate is absolutely unnecessary and unwarranted.

>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

vale, Censor. I still hope we can work this out :-)

Sulla: Sure, keep the first part of your proposal, drop the mandatory budget requirements and we will be able to work this out.

Cato





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caesar quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Salve, Iulius Caesar et salvete, omnes.
>
> Then I offer this as the *actual* proposal:
>
> 1. There will be 5 classes of taxes, from "First Class" (the
> highest) to "Fifth Class (the lowest).
>
> 2. The levels of taxes would be:
> First Class: $50.00 per annum
> Second Class: $40.00 p.a.
> Third Class: $30.00 p.a.
> Fourth Class: $20.00 p.a.
> Fifth Class: $10.00 p.a.
>
> 3. ALL taxes would be calculated exactly as the current taxation
> level is done now, adjusted per each country's GDP, etc.
>
> 4. ALL taxes would be collected by the Provincial Governments, then
> sent on to the NR Treasury, which would absorb the costs of the

> transfer to the US.
>
> 5. ALL new NR citizens, after passing the probationary period
> established in the excellent (IMHO) law proposed by Consul Marinus,
> would automatically be placed in the lowest (Fifth) tax Class.
>
> 6. The highest level of magistracy (Censor, Consul) would REQUIRE
> membership in the First Class of taxation.
> The next level of magistracy (Praetors, Tribunes) would REQUIRE
> membership in the Second Class of taxation.
> The next level of magistracy (Aediles, Quaestors) would REQUIRE
> membership in the Third Class of taxation.
> All Pontifices and Senators would be REQUIRED to be members of AT
> LEAST the Fourth Class of taxation.
>
> N.B. - any magistrate would be welcome to join any level of

> HIGHER than that required; indeed, any citizen at all could
> voluntarily join a higher tax class if they desired.
>
>
> The Treasury would then be divided as follows:
>
>
> 1. US$500.00 (or its local equivalent) for a scholarship to a
> student of Classics in one school in each Province. The Provincial
> administrations would be individually charged with choosing the
> school and/or student. A concrete symbol of our commitment to the
> continued study and vivification of the standards of ancient
> knowledge.
>
> Of the remainder,
>
> 2. 10% to the Magna Mater Project.
>
> 3. 10% to an archaeological project chosen from proposals

> by Provincial governments each year, and voted upon by the

> Each Provincial government would be able to submit one (1)

> per annum.
>
> 4. 20% to subsidization of the sacerdotes' needs in performing the
> rites of the Religio Publica. As I stated before, the State Religio
> should, if the State could be put on more financially secure

> be subsidized by the State. I know that magistrates in ancient Rome
> often put on elaborate games etc. to win the People to them, but
> this is simply a gesture on behalf of the State to recognize and
> help her public committment to the performance of the Religio
> Publica.
>
> 5. 20% to go into interest-bearing bonds earmarked for the purchase
> of the Ager Publicus.
>
> 6. 20% to go the creation and distribution of New Citizens'
> Information Packets, including (but not limited to) copies of the
> Constitution, the current Laws, a Certificate of Citizenship, and a
> Directory of Citizens (by gens or Province or whatever is deemed
> best).
>
> 7. 20% to go into a reserve fund for use by the Senate/magistrates
> for the running of the day-to-day operations
>
> N.B. - it *is* possible, in a not-for-profit organization
> incorporated as a 501(c) 3, to *require* that "dues"
> (i.e., our "taxes") be paid in order to be a full voting member.

> belong to three in which that is the case, and I wrote their By-

>
> vale et valete,
>
> Cato
> "Tarditas et procrastinatio odiosa est" - Cicero

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima <violetphearsen@y...> wrote:
> Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote: Salve Maxima
> Valeria;
> we are here to amuse;) but I must otherwise correct you on 2
> counts, Jewish people use a Solar-Lunar calendar and Zoroastrians
> most certainly have used a strictly solar calendar for millenia,
> and welcome to Nova Roma!
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>
>
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ
>
>
> Thank you for the corrections. I shall make note of them.
> Interesting about the Zoroastrians, since my source told me they
still used lunar calendars. Hmm. Of course, if you go back far enough
into true antiquity, everyone used lunar calendars. Solar calendars
took longer to develop as they were harder to computate. Nonetheless,
I shall send your correction about the Zoroastrians to my source
immediately.
>
> Vale
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "albmd323232" <albmd32@h...> wrote:
> Greetings,
> Ive tried to e-mail the censors on several occasions during the last
> few days in regards to my membership application, but the messages
> are all returned undelivered. Is the e-mail address:
> censors@n... correct?
>
> Thank you,
> Robert

> Gaius Modius Athanasius Quiritibus salutem dicit
>
> Laenas has been an Accensus, Legate, Quaestor, Tribunus Plebis, and is
> currently a Propraetor and has been a citizen for over three years. He served in
> these roles admirably and with distinction.
>
> I believe him to be a fair and honest man.
>
> I fully support Gaius Popillius Laenas for Praetor, and will be casting my
> vote for him; I encourage you to do the same!
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Tribunus Plebis
> Pontifex, Flamen Pomonalis, & Augur
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> Greetings,
> Ive tried to e-mail the censors on several occasions during the

> few days in regards to my membership application, but the messages
> are all returned undelivered. Is the e-mail address:
> censors@n... correct?
>
> Thank you,
> Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: Dana
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 9:38 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] OOC: Gone


Salve;

Drusilla Metella Germanica here - I will be gone a week or longer
starting tomorrow evening. I'm going into surgery and the hospital
doesn't even have phones in the room so there will be no internet
access at all during that time. I will miss you all - I should be
back posting within two weeks.

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. Please check out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hunter_Personal_Updates

for updates after the surgery.

Drusilla Metella Germanica





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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> After speaking with several of our leading citizens

> several weeks and reading the proposals for a

> would like to offer another proposal.
>
> Perspective Citizens would be allowed to join Nova

> probationary status as Socii for a period of not

> months. During this probationary period, the Socii

> to a regional group based on their macronational

> for one of the members of the Latin League (see

> receive wholesome instruction on Nova Roma, history,

> Religio, social life, and other aspects of Roman

> perspective citizen will also have an opportunity to

> many gentes and citizens of Nova Roma in their area

> opportunity to meet with them. During this period,

> be allowed to vote or have any of the privileges of

> citizens.
> At the end of the six month probationary period, a

> Socii can petition Nova Roma to become a Capite

> simple test of knowledge on Nova Roma and Roman

> this test, he or she may make application to the

> join, submit their Nova Roman name to the Censors,

> membership fee to become Capite Censi.
>
> Capite Censi will receive a certificate of

> office of the Censors with their Nova Roman name and

> citizenship became effective on approval by the

> their gens, receipt of a basic membership fee (to be

> but no more than $10-12 annually based on the

> scale), and approval of their NR name by the

> Censi will have the right to vote in all appropriate

> Capite Censi who wish to run for office or submit

> serve in the Sacred Colleges would need to submit

> increased membership (or tax) fees to be classed

> proposed tiered system.
>
> If we work on the historic basis of five classes of

> the Socii would be the fifth class and the Capite

> fourth class.
>
> The third to first classes could be based on the

> the tiered tax system. However, I would suggest

> willing to pay the First Class Tax be for those

> Consul and Censor only or be appointed Pontifex

> Regina Sacorum, and Flamen Dialis.
>
> *Names of Latin League Members
> Volsci Aequi Hernici
> Tiburi Praenesti Sabines
> Fidenaii Stellatine Tromentina
> Sabatina Aniensis Alba Longus
> Lavinium Tusculum Umbria
> Oscans Cora Velitrae
> Satricum Samnites Antium
>
> Valete.
>
>

> IV. These requirements may be wholly or partially waived by the Senate
> in exceptional circumstances.

> G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.
>
> salvete, omnes.
>
> Well, it seems that in my enthusiasm I may have trodden on toes.
> For this, I offer my apologies. I am still in favor of a tiered tax
> class system. What I would ask, then, is whether or not there is
> any method by which individual citizens could have a say in the
> channels into which our tax money would be put?
>
> valete,
>
> Cato

> Actually, Sulla Felix, the responsibility of the Tribunes is to
> protect the
> Plebeians from judicial decisions and laws handed down by Patrician
> aediles,
> consuls, and other magistrates. A secondary feature in Nova Roma is
> defense of
> the Constitution from violations by Patricians and Plebeians.
>
> Aurelianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites;
> I am here to recommend that you vote for one of the outstanding
> women of Nova Roma: Po.
> We all know her and since being a civis since 2000 she's been
> scribe, legate, propraetor and praetor...
> Who has greater experience than Po? She is also upstandingly
fair
> and I count her a good friend. I'm a confirmed polytheist and she
is
> a Christian and that's how it should be in Nova Roma; harmony and
> respect. Yes it exists...
> Quirites I ask you to vote for Po; in the past she once did
resign
> due to political difficuties, but if we can give Vedius
Germanicus,
> the pater patriae a second chance, then for sure Po deserves one!
> bene valete in pace deorum
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ

> F. Galerio Aureliano S.P.D. Fl Vedius Germanicus
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
>
> Just a slight correction/clarification here; the _historical_
> responsibilities of the Tribunes was to protect the Plebeians.

> Plebeians in Nova Roma aren't really in need of any protecting

> Patricians, the role of the Tribunes of the Plebs has been adopted

> fill a need in our current Republic, that you describe.
>
> May the Gods guide you safely.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> Pater Patriae
>
> PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
>
> > Actually, Sulla Felix, the responsibility of the Tribunes is to
> > protect the
> > Plebeians from judicial decisions and laws handed down by

> > aediles,
> > consuls, and other magistrates. A secondary feature in Nova

> > defense of
> > the Constitution from violations by Patricians and Plebeians.
> >
> > Aurelianus

> Salvete,
>
> I'd like to thank Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Lucius Cornelius Sulla,
> and Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus for their endorsements. If someone
> else has added their endorsement and I missed it, I thank you and
> apologize for omitting your name.
>
> My question concerns the Nova Roma splash screen. Besides it being
> frightfully dull with little eye appeal, I'm concerned about the
> statement "Because the Gods of Olympus are calling..." The Gods of
> Olympus are not the Gods of Roma. The Gods of Olympus were the
> Hellenic Gods. Does anyone who practices the Religio have a
> better "tag line"? I'm open to suggestions so that should I be
> elected to change that "tag line" to something more accurate.
>
> Valete,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus