In a message dated 7/31/04 7:44:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
doris-butler@... writes:

> When you cast your ballot, remember that Po is the candidate who has
> proven herself capable and congenial, truly passionate and tenacious
> for the wellbeing of *all* our citizenry.
>
> A vote for Po is a vote for an individual of integrity and honor

You know, I would love to let this go by, but some people might actually
believe it.
No she is not. Look at the record. As PCS she resigned from her
Praetorship, because she felt overwhelmed. She left her fellow Senators because she was
slighted by one.
No honor or integrity there. Look it up. Its there in B&W.

And I'm sure she has the wellbeing of some of the citizenary at heart. But
not all.
She has demonstrated in the forum and by private e-mail that she actually can
be quite vindictive.
I really grow tired of people saying let bygones be bygones. She is
on the ballot correct? So we have let the bygones go. If we hadn't
she wouldn't be there.
But why should we take a chance on an unknown quantity who left after the
pressure of office became too much the first time she had the job?
Better that we stay with what we know: That we have a reliable person who has
never resigned and has completed all his magistracies with dispatch . Yes
vote for honor or integrity. Vote for the one suitable choice for Praetor.
Vote for Gaius Popillius Laenas

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Personally I would like to see Nova Roma incorporate an entity for land purchases and maintance


There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: R: Taxes
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
2. Re: Re: R: Taxes
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla"
3. Re: Re: R: Taxes
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
4. Re: Re: Attention Praetors-Aurelianus to Fabiana, A Bhean Uasai.
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
5. Re: R: Taxes
From: "John Dobbins"
6. Re: Re: R: Taxes
From: "Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus"

7. Re: R: Taxes
From: "John Dobbins"
8. Re: Re: R: Taxes
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
9. Re: Re: The Tax System-Aurelianus to Drusus
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
10. Re: Greetings to all and some lunar calendar info
From: Violet Phearsen
11. Comments Requested -- Proposed new-citizen law
From: Bill Gawne
12. Re: Re: Greetings to all and some lunar calendar info
From: Bill Gawne
13. INVALID VOTES #4001, #4003, #4004 IN COMITIA CENTURIATA
From: "Patrick D. Owen"

14. Re: The Tax System-Aurelianus to Drusus
From: "John Dobbins"
15. Re: Re: The Tax System
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
16. Re: Greetings to all and some lunar calendar info
From: "gaiusequitiuscato"
17. Comment Requested - DRAFT Lex Equitia de Falsum et Calumniae
From: Bill Gawne
18. Re: Re: R: Taxes
From: "Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus"

19. Re: Comments Requested -- Proposed new-citizen law
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@...
20. Re: The Tax System-Aurelianus to Drusus
From: "gaiusequitiuscato"
21. Re: Comments Requested -- Proposed new-citizen law
From: "A. Apollonius Cordus"
22. Re: Greetings to all and some lunar calendar info
From: "Maior"
23. Final Race of the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris
From: Gregory Rose
24. Digest No 1438
From: "Lucius Equitius"
25. Caerimonia of the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris
From: Gregory Rose


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:28:00 EDT
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Subject: Re: Re: R: Taxes

F. Galerius Aurelianus G. Modio Athanasio. Salve.

I must disagree with you on this thought, amice. I believe that if NR were
to be chartered or incorporated as a church or other religious organization at
a local or state level it would not entail that much additional time for the
elected magistrates. However, to move it to a national or international level
would likely require a paid staff. If our incorporation were to change, I
would support a motion to incorporate Nova Roma as an educational organization
but not a Church.

Also, we don't really need to worry about banning members for life quite yet.
I believe that moderation on the lists for up to two months is probably the
most severe punishment we need at the moment.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:27:18 -0700
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla"
Subject: Re: Re: R: Taxes

Ave!

Actually an organization can have more than one incorporation. From my pervious experience with not-for-profits, they can have many incorporations. It will just depend on the scope and jurisdiction of each incorporation. In this way NR could keep its original incorporation, and incorporate other facets of the organization such as a Church or an educational institution as well.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: R: Taxes


F. Galerius Aurelianus G. Modio Athanasio. Salve.

I must disagree with you on this thought, amice. I believe that if NR were
to be chartered or incorporated as a church or other religious organization at
a local or state level it would not entail that much additional time for the
elected magistrates. However, to move it to a national or international level
would likely require a paid staff. If our incorporation were to change, I
would support a motion to incorporate Nova Roma as an educational organization
but not a Church.

Also, we don't really need to worry about banning members for life quite yet.
I believe that moderation on the lists for up to two months is probably the
most severe punishment we need at the moment.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:42:56 -0400
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Subject: Re: Re: R: Taxes

L Cornelio Sullae S.P.D. Fl Vedius Germanicus

S.V.B.E.E.V.

May I suggest this discussion be tabled until such time as we have the advice of an attorney who specializes in such things? If we're venturing into the realm of multiple incorporations for a single organization, educational non-profits, religious non-profits, etc. (not to mention the international aspects!), we're going to need the solicited legal advice of a professional in the field, and not just the well-meaning thoughts of amateurs and "baracks lawyers" (myself included, btw) who can do a Google search. Google ain't Findlaw, Legalese ain't English, and good intentions ain't practical experience.

No denegration at all intended, as I'm sure you realize; but there are people who do nothing but this for a living, and we need to get their advice before proceeding. There are serious macronational consequences (up to and including prison for the Senate, as they are the corporate Board of Directors, in the worst-case scenario) for screwing this up that we simply cannot afford.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae



L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave!
>
> Actually an organization can have more than one incorporation. From
> my pervious experience with not-for-profits, they can have many
> incorporations. It will just depend on the scope and jurisdiction of
> each incorporation. In this way NR could keep its original
> incorporation, and incorporate other facets of the organization such
> as a Church or an educational institution as well.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: R: Taxes
>
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus G. Modio Athanasio. Salve.
>
> I must disagree with you on this thought, amice. I believe that if
> NR were
> to be chartered or incorporated as a church or other religious
> organization at
> a local or state level it would not entail that much additional time
> for the
> elected magistrates. However, to move it to a national or
> international level
> would likely require a paid staff. If our incorporation were to
> change, I
> would support a motion to incorporate Nova Roma as an educational
> organization
> but not a Church.
>
> Also, we don't really need to worry about banning members for life
> quite yet.
> I believe that moderation on the lists for up to two months is
> probably the
> most severe punishment we need at the moment.
>
> Vale.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:55:31 EDT
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Subject: Re: Re: Attention Praetors-Aurelianus to Fabiana, A Bhean Uasai.

Dia Bride agus Lugh dhuit, acushla. Ni hea, ne Eireannach me. Is
Americeanach-Combrogi-Eireannach me. Nil moran Gaelige agam. Tam buioch diot.

Mise le meas,

Padruig Aoghann
aka F. Galerius Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:56:20 -0000
From: "John Dobbins"
Subject: Re: R: Taxes

Ave,

I doubt that Nova Roma would qualify as a "Church" under our present
structure. The IRS has made several rulings against groups that had
open memberships with no religous test which tried to claim the Tax
benifits of a Church.

Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus G. Modio Athanasio. Salve.
>
> I must disagree with you on this thought, amice. I believe that if
NR were
> to be chartered or incorporated as a church or other religious
organization at
> a local or state level it would not entail that much additional time
for the
> elected magistrates. However, to move it to a national or
international level
> would likely require a paid staff. If our incorporation were to
change, I
> would support a motion to incorporate Nova Roma as an educational
organization
> but not a Church.
>
> Also, we don't really need to worry about banning members for life
quite yet.
> I believe that moderation on the lists for up to two months is
probably the
> most severe punishment we need at the moment.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:04:05 -0400
From: "Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus"

Subject: Re: Re: R: Taxes

Q. Caecilius Metellus L. Sicinio Druso et Omnibus sal.

Salvete,

> I doubt that Nova Roma would qualify as a "Church" under our present
> structure. The IRS has made several rulings against groups that had
> open memberships with no religous test which tried to claim the Tax
> benifits of a Church.

Understood. What about purely the Sacerdotia? If my understanding of "church incorporation" is correct, incorporating the priesthood would extend to the priests/-esses certain rights which they currently lack (i.e., in order to sollemnize a marriage or officiate a funeral, in my state, one has to be a "regularly ordained or licensed" member of a "congregation," and be registered as such with the Secretary of State). Just a thought.

Valete,

Metellus


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:08:38 -0000
From: "John Dobbins"
Subject: Re: R: Taxes

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus"

wrote:
> Q. Caecilius Metellus L. Sicinio Druso et Omnibus sal.
>
> Salvete,
>
> > I doubt that Nova Roma would qualify as a "Church" under our present
> > structure. The IRS has made several rulings against groups that had
> > open memberships with no religous test which tried to claim the Tax
> > benifits of a Church.
>
> Understood. What about purely the Sacerdotia? If my understanding
of "church incorporation" is correct, incorporating the priesthood
would extend to the priests/-esses certain rights which they currently
lack (i.e., in order to sollemnize a marriage or officiate a funeral,
in my state, one has to be a "regularly ordained or licensed" member
of a "congregation," and be registered as such with the Secretary of
State). Just a thought.
>
> Valete,
>
> Metellus

I Have to agree with Flavius Vedius. If we attempt anything more
complex than a simple incorporation it's time to consult a lawyer.

Free Legal advice from ametaurs is worth what you paid for it. ;-)

Drusus




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:13:11 -0400
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Subject: Re: Re: R: Taxes

Q. Caecilio Metello S.P.D. Fl Vedius Germanicus

S.V.B.E.E.V.

May I suggest that this is perhaps a perfect place to employ a more local responsibility? At least in the United States, churches are incorporated on a state-by-state basis (although once that is achieved, assuming IRS tax-exemption is much easier).

Considering that the more practical aspects of clergy status-- officiating at weddings, funerals, etc.-- are aspects that are applied locally, that might be the way to go.

Although, given the vagarities of U.S. law, the situation does vary widely from state to state. I happen to know, for example, that my own state of New Jersey allows anyone to perform a wedding as long as they lead a congregation that "accepts them as a religious leader". And yet I believe the rules in neighboring New York are much harsher; NY does not recognize clergy ordained by the Universal Life Church (the outfit that ordains anyone who fills out a web form). So it's a horrible tangle of local jurisdictions.

And that's not even approaching the situation in Europe, where there is official recognition of churches, and state-sponsored religions, and the bar is much, much higher to even be treated as a religion to begin with.

I suggest this is a question best delegated to the local level, since the rules vary so widely, even within the same macronation (and hey! it might even spur development of local groups to take care of such questions!).

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae




Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus wrote:

> Q. Caecilius Metellus L. Sicinio Druso et Omnibus sal.
>
> Salvete,
>
> > I doubt that Nova Roma would qualify as a "Church" under our present
> > structure. The IRS has made several rulings against groups that had
> > open memberships with no religous test which tried to claim the Tax
> > benifits of a Church.
>
> Understood. What about purely the Sacerdotia? If my understanding of
> "church incorporation" is correct, incorporating the priesthood would
> extend to the priests/-esses certain rights which they currently lack
> (i.e., in order to sollemnize a marriage or officiate a funeral, in my
> state, one has to be a "regularly ordained or licensed" member of a
> "congregation," and be registered as such with the Secretary of
> State). Just a thought.
>
> Valete,
>
> Metellus




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:19:13 EDT
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Subject: Re: Re: The Tax System-Aurelianus to Drusus

Drusus, that was unkindly said to Cato.

You wrote in one of your recent posts to me not long ago that you (as a
Senator) had to keep in mind what all the citizens of Nova Roma needed and not just
the active ones. We are making great strides in the reorganization and
redirection of NR right now and you are shaping up as a major player. You have
been showing understanding and an ability to get along with other folks that is
very much a surprise. Giving freely of your insight and experience is very
good but don't allow your ascorbic wit to get away from you now. If Nova Roma
can keep up the current momentum for several months and into the next election,
we will have all the potential to move more and more into the physical world
and off the net. You are one of those that will be chiefly responsible if you
can keep showing your best face to others. With respect,

Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Violet Phearsen
Subject: Re: Greetings to all and some lunar calendar info

Salve!

To all my fellow Nova Romans, I extend greetings from a brand new citizen.
I have been following the discussions for some days now and I find it all most interesting, informative and, at times, quite amusing ( no offense intended to anyone, I mean that in a good way ).

Not wishing to hold up the discussions any longer, let me just send a quick memo to Kaelus Iulius regarding your post of July 24th, in which you stated: "As Jews are the only modern people I know of to use a lunar religious calendar," there are still many modern peoples using lunar calendars today to determine their religious feastdays. These include Moslems, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, Shintoists as well as the Anu in northern Japan, and some Native American tribes. These are the ones I know of, but I dare say there's probably more. Just some interesting tidbits to pass along.

With all respect,

Maxima Valeria Messallina


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:22:37 -0400
From: Bill Gawne
Subject: Comments Requested -- Proposed new-citizen law

LEX EQVITIA DE TIROCINIO CIVIVM NOVORVM

I. Nova Roman citizenship begins at the instant a pater- or materfamilias
recognizes a person as a member of their Nova Roman familia and informs
the lawfully designated Nova Roman magistrates responsible for citizen
registration of this recognition.

II. Beginning Kalendis Ianuarias, MMDCCLVII, all new citizens of Nova
Roma shall be subject to a probationary period of at least 90 days, during
which they will not be eligible to vote.

III. The probationary period will end when the new citizen has taken and
passed a simple examination covering important matters of Nova Roman
citizenship and basic Roman history, religion, and social practices.
This examination shall be made available, upon request of the applicant,
in any of the languages for which Nova Roma has qualified translators.
The examination will be developed by the Censors or such other magistrates
as the Censors may designate.

IV. These requirements may be wholly or partially waived by the Senate
in exceptional circumstances.

V. Minor citizens who join Nova Roma after Kalendis Ianuarias, MMDCCLVII and
who have not yet reached 18 years of age may take the examination up to

=== message truncated ===


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@...> wrote: Q Cassio Calvo S.P.D. Fl Vedius Germanicus

S.V.B.E.E.V.

As the person who set up the splash page way back when, I think it might
have outlived its usefulness.

I think contemporary website design has pretty much gotten past the
splash screen. And "family values" was much more a catch-phrase in 1998
than it is today.

We might want to discuss the differences or lack thereof of the Hellenic
Gods with those of Rome on the ReligioRomana email list. But I think we
can safely do away with the splash screen altogether. I've come to like
a tighter, leaner design for websites, personally.

May the Gods guide you safely.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Pater Patriae

Salve

I did not mean to imply that we should do away with the splash screen altogether, just change the word "Olympus" to "Rome" or "Roma."

Personally, I think the splash screen is still needed and I like what it saids and the picture of the famous statue of the She-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus is most appropriate.

Vale

Maxima Valeria Messallina

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Numerius Gladius Bibulus <bobochan_vt@...> wrote:
Salvete Senator Gnaee Equiti omnesque,

I am a new citizen but I have been following main list for the past
month and read the new-citizen threads with great interest. One thing
that struck me about going through the citizenship process was that I
was never asked "Why do you want to be a citizen?" While a Google
search can instantly find any test taker "396 BC" as the year the
Gauls sacked Rome, the "why" question is much more challenging.
Answering this, hopefully in two or three paragraphs, will give
prospective citizens a chance to explain their interests, motivations
and expectations.

Furthermore, I propose that upon acceptance of citizenship the answer
should be posted to either the main list or another suitable list.
This could be done in the context of a welcoming introduction which
would help the new citizen to make connections to people with similar
interests.


Salve

As a new citizen and having just gone through the application process, myself, I like your suggestion about asking prospective new members why they want to become citizens of Nova Roma, as well as giving them a chance to state their interests and motivations.

However, I don't think the main list is the place to post those answers. A separate page, I think, would be better. Another group I belong to has this procedure: a notice is posted on the main page that a new member has joined. Members can then go to the "Newbie Page" where a small bio introduces the newest member to the group. The bio includes the person's interests, skills and talents as well as the reasons for why they've joined the group. Members then post welcomes and connections are made. It works quite well and really makes our newbies feel welcomed.

Vale

Maxima Valeria Messallina


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A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

Fabia Livia and I shall be away in Madrid and Segovia
for about a week from today. I hope you all have a
good week, and I expect to return to a lovely big pile
of votes to count - don't disappoint me!





___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Salvete,

I've been following the tax reform threads with interest. Now I hae
a question. Why is it that in Nova Roma nothing can be simple? I
think Hadrianus suggestion was the best and simplest of them all.
By the time I've read through all the threads no matter what the
discussion even the simplest concept becomes as much a tangled mess
as Medusa having a bad hair day.

Valete,

Q. Cassius Calvus

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete.

I would like to offer my endorsement to Gaius Popillius Laenas for the
office of Praetor. Through his past service to the Res Publica in the
capacties of Legate, Quaestor, Tribune of the Plebs, and Propraetor he
has made his qualties and dedication self evident. Gaius Popillius
Laenas is clearly the candidate with the Dignitas and Auctoritas for the
job.

I would also like to offer my endorsement to Quintus Cassius Calvus for
the office of Curator Araneum. I have had the honor and privilige to
meet with Cassius Calvus on several occasions, and I hold him in the
highest esteem.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minervae Aedis Sacerdos

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>
> I would also like to offer my endorsement to Quintus Cassius

Calvus for

> the office of Curator Araneum. I have had the honor and privilige

to

> meet with Cassius Calvus on several occasions, and I hold him in

the

> highest esteem.

Salve,

Aw shucks, you're making me blush. <G> I thank you for the
endorsement and know that the feelings are mutual.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Salvete Omnes,

I add my voice to that of C. Munucius Hadrianus and others in
endorsing Quintus Cassius Calvus. Nova Roma is blessed to have such
a citizen, and one who is willing to step forward to fill such an
important and difficult job.

Valete,

G. Popillius Laenas

Salvete all,

Ah another election and it is always an exciting time :-)

I would like to publicly support Gaius Popillius Laenas for Praetor, a
gentlemen that I had the priviledge to work with as a Tribune. He helped
make my office as Tribune quite a pleasant one.He was always hard-working,
jovial and quite unbiased. He was always able to look at the facts and the
facts alone and base his judgement on them.

This is exactly the type of person that we need as Praetor. As we all know,
the Praetores moderate this list and unbiasness is a major quality needed. I
can count on Laenas to always base his opinions on what is said and not on
whom has said it. Besides that, with his great sense of humour, maybe he'll
bring a bit of laughter back onto this list instead of all the doom and
gloom that we've seen this year.

Vote Gaius Popillius Laenas for Praetor!

Valete,
Diana Octavia Aventina

hear! hear! that is why i try to stay off the ml. very
touchy-feely sort of place nr is.
--- richmal@... <richmal@...> wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I've been following the tax reform threads with

interest. Now I hae

> a question. Why is it that in Nova Roma nothing can

be simple? I

> think Hadrianus suggestion was the best and simplest

of them all.

> By the time I've read through all the threads no

matter what the

> discussion even the simplest concept becomes as much

a tangled mess

> as Medusa having a bad hair day.
>
> Valete,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Salvete,

> Besides that, with his great sense of humour, maybe he'll
> bring a bit of laughter back onto this list instead of all the doom and
> gloom that we've seen this year.

Indeed! We need a lot more humor here. But I still get a laugh or two off this list every so often. In any case, Laenas is getting my vote, and I urge my fellow citizens to send their votes the same way.

Valete,

Q. Caecilius Metellus
Former Scriba Praetoris

>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The above unpleasant message was brought to you by
The Boni
whose motto is

"when you can't get elected use invective"

vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

G. Equitius Cato Q. Cassio Calvo G. Minucio Hadriano quiritibusque
S.P.D.

Salve et salvete.

Then would you find the follwing bit acceptable?

1. There will be 5 classes of taxes, from "First Class" (the
highest) to "Fifth Class (the lowest).

2. The levels of taxes would be:
First Class: $50.00 per annum
Second Class: $40.00 p.a.
Third Class: $30.00 p.a.
Fourth Class: $20.00 p.a.
Fifth Class: $10.00 p.a.

3. ALL taxes would be calculated exactly as the current taxation
level is done now, adjusted per each country's GDP, etc.

4. ALL taxes would be collected by the Provincial Governments, then
sent on to the NR Treasury, which would absorb the costs of the money
transfer to the US.

5. ALL new NR citizens, after passing the probationary period
established in the excellent (IMHO) law proposed by Consul Marinus,
would automatically be placed in the lowest (Fifth) tax Class.

6. The highest level of magistracy (Censor, Consul) would REQUIRE
membership in the First Class of taxation.
The next level of magistracy (Praetors, Tribunes) would REQUIRE
membership in the Second Class of taxation.
The next level of magistracy (Aediles, Quaestors) would REQUIRE
membership in the Third Class of taxation.
All Pontifices and Senators would be REQUIRED to be members of AT
LEAST the Fourth Class of taxation.

N.B. - any magistrate would be welcome to join any level of taxation
HIGHER than that required; indeed, any citizen at all could
voluntarily join a higher tax class if they desired.


It's the tax tiers without the mandated expenditures section,
basically. It follows Minucius Hadrianus' scale (a little less
expensive), but incorporates calculated tax scales, exactly the way
our taxes are now. What's the general feeling on this?

vale et valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@c...> wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I've been following the tax reform threads with interest. Now I

hae

> a question. Why is it that in Nova Roma nothing can be simple? I
> think Hadrianus suggestion was the best and simplest of them all.
> By the time I've read through all the threads no matter what the
> discussion even the simplest concept becomes as much a tangled

mess

> as Medusa having a bad hair day.
>
> Valete,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus

What's the general feeling on this?

>
>

Salve Cato;
as this was put before: it means that European cives from less
weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia, Serbia, cannot afford
to be candidates

It means cives from South America; from Brasil, Peru, Argentina
cannot afford to be candidates.

It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the Phillipines cannot afford to be
candidates.

we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
bene vale
M. Armina Maior Fabiana

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:

> >
> > Valete
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> The above unpleasant message was brought to you by
> The Boni
> whose motto is
>
> "when you can't get elected use invective"
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

Salve,

Wouldnt it be better form to refute the statements of Q. Fabius
Maximus? If you can't refute the statements, then let them stand
rather than point fingers in a mirror as I've seen you go the
invective route at high speed more than once. I've not said a thing
until now in order to keep peace in the Censorial Cohors, but enough
is enough. Be thankful I am not the Censor because if you were
you'd be fired twice in one year because there are things I won't
put up with from someone in my employ no matter how well they do
their job otherwise and disrespect is high on the list of things I
won't tolerate.

Which is why I'm voting for Gaius Popillius Laenas for I've never
seen him no matter how heated the debate treat another person with
contempt and disrespect.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:

> >
> > Valete
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> The above unpleasant message was brought to you by
> The Boni
> whose motto is
>
> "when you can't get elected use invective"
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

Salvete,

I must offer a correction. Brought to you by a Bonus; not by the
Boni.

We don't have a group consciousness ;-).

Valete,

G. Popillius Laenas

Be thankful I am not the Censor because if you were

> you'd be fired twice in one year because there are things I won't
> put up with from someone in my employ no matter how well they do
> their job otherwise and disrespect is high on the list of things I
> won't tolerate.
>

Calvus are you imputing the reputation of Censor Quintilianus? He is
a man of probity and virtue. Do you really think he would put up
with me if I behaved badly, lied and used dirty tricks like others
here..

>And Calvus you never let me knew how you felt, I actually regarded

you as a cohors friend, before this post. Not very nice of you to
suddenly show up and condemn me -Boni
. But can't we run a clean campaign without smearing other people?
Was what Diana Octavia said about Pompeia when she ran for Censor
fair? -Boni
Was Diana's behavior on the ML in regard to our Consul virtuous?

Is Sicinius Drusus's words on the ML respectful or tolerant - Boni

Hasn't Scaurus said worse things on the ML, he cursed and doesn't
seems to want our Christian cives to run for office - Boni
and he's not censored whereas I was and have obeyed the law.

So please don't attack me & it's not in Po's interest to rehash the
old behavior, as I said if we are going to give Vedius Germanicus a
new chance; doesn't Po deserve one!
and one more thing, friendship & loyalty transcend
politics....
vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

ROFL!

Maior you are cracking me up.

This is simply too funny for words!

This message from you, after spending a large part of your time
launching invective attacks against me and anyone else you have some
personal grudge against!

In Favor of a canidate who has spent a large part of the past two
years launching invective attacks against Diana Octavia along with any
one who is friends with her, associated with her, or who even happened
to say hi to her!

What a riot!

Maior, I guess your message was bought to Nova Roma by the spiteful
grudge party.

L. Sicinius Drusus
(Who has tears in his eyes from laughing so hard)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Valete
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> The above unpleasant message was brought to you by
> The Boni
> whose motto is
>
> "when you can't get elected use invective"
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

In a message dated 8/1/04 10:48:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:

> The above unpleasant message was brought to you by
> The Boni
> whose motto is
>
> "when you can't get elected use invective"
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>
>

Several Comments:

I I said "I" Not "we" So stop pinning my statement on my Faction.
II. If you say my message is unpleasant, too bad. That is your opinion.
Political campaigning IS UNPLEASANT especially when a candidate is as unqualified
as I believe PMTS is.
III. I have been elected to all the posts of the Honorum save two, one was
an appointment from the Dictator for work done in the behalf of the republic.
And guess what. I have never resigned or left my magistracies when things did
not go my way. Because I have honor and integrity.
IV. If my facts are wrong you get to refute me, not attack my faction.
V. Pretty simple isn't it? So I assume the facts are correct, and you are
just attacking my faction because you don't like me. Darn, my feelings are now
hurt. How will I ever survive?
I think the voters see exactly what you believe.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus
Titles too numerous to list.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

america bashing. cute.
--- rory12001@... <rory12001@...> wrote:

> What's the general feeling on this?
> >
> >
> Salve Cato;
> as this was put before: it means that European

cives from less

> weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia,

Serbia, cannot afford

> to be candidates
>
> It means cives from South America; from Brasil,

Peru, Argentina

> cannot afford to be candidates.
>
> It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the Phillipines

cannot afford to be

> candidates.
>
> we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
> bene vale
> M. Armina Maior Fabiana
>

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Salvete Quirites;
I wish to apologize to the MainList for invoking the Censor's name
when it is in his strict instructions that we never involve the
cohors in politics. Even to do so in defense is no excuse. I am
culpable and it was entirely wrong.

valete
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

Salve;
I love America, I am a citizen and live abroad so I realize that
what is easy for us with our fantastic lifestyle and salaries is not
possible to others. Is that okay? Don't you want to include everyone,
rich and poor alike, to me that is the American way.
vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@y...>
wrote:

> america bashing. cute.
> --- rory12001@y... <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > What's the general feeling on this?
> > >
> > >
> > Salve Cato;
> > as this was put before: it means that European
> cives from less
> > weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia,
> Serbia, cannot afford
> > to be candidates
> >
> > It means cives from South America; from Brasil,
> Peru, Argentina
> > cannot afford to be candidates.
> >
> > It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the Phillipines
> cannot afford to be
> > candidates.
> >
> > we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
> > bene vale
> > M. Armina Maior Fabiana
> >
>
>
> =====
> S P Q R
>
> Fidelis Ad Mortem.
>
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> Roman Citizen
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Calvus are you imputing the reputation of Censor Quintilianus? He
is
> a man of probity and virtue. Do you really think he would put up
> with me if I behaved badly, lied and used dirty tricks like others
> here..

I am not imputing the reputation of Censor Quintilianus, he is all
you say that he is and more. You are the one by your ongoing
negative actions that are bringing not only his reputation and
judgement of character into question, you are also bringing into
question the reputation of the rest of his Cohors by your ongoing
actions. I've had quite enough of your antics reflecting back upon
me, thank you very much.

> >And Calvus you never let me knew how you felt, I actually
regarded
> you as a cohors friend, before this post. Not very nice of you to
> suddenly show up and condemn me -Boni

You're about six months late on that one. I was (note past tense) a
member of the Boni but I left for the exact same reason, tired of a
couple of the members impuning the reputation of the rest by virtue
of their constant displays of disrespect towards others.

> . But can't we run a clean campaign without smearing other
people?
> Was what Diana Octavia said about Pompeia when she ran for Censor
> fair? -Boni
> Was Diana's behavior on the ML in regard to our Consul virtuous?
>
> Is Sicinius Drusus's words on the ML respectful or tolerant - Boni


As my mother would say, "I suppose if everyone else was jumping off
a bridge, you'd have to do it too?"

> Hasn't Scaurus said worse things on the ML, he cursed and doesn't
> seems to want our Christian cives to run for office - Boni
> and he's not censored whereas I was and have obeyed the law.

Take that up with the moderators I have nothing to do with who they
moderate and why.


> So please don't attack me & it's not in Po's interest to rehash
the
> old behavior, as I said if we are going to give Vedius Germanicus
a
> new chance; doesn't Po deserve one!

Does Po deserve a second chance? Of course she does, but in my
opinion she can start by running for something a little more humble
than Praetor or Censor and then prove herself to me that the past is
past. I'm willing to give Vedius Germanicus a second chance as well
and willing to give him the chance to prove it as well.

> and one more thing, friendship & loyalty transcend
> politics....

They do, and with your antics I would say you have never been my
friend nor shown any loyalty towards anyone other than yourself.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

u r correct. as a vet and policeman i offend easily. i
see roma and the us as parrallel and i am defensive of
both. thanks for your candor.
--- rory12001@... <rory12001@...> wrote:

> Salve;
> I love America, I am a citizen and live abroad so I

realize that

> what is easy for us with our fantastic lifestyle and

salaries is not

> possible to others. Is that okay? Don't you want to

include everyone,

> rich and poor alike, to me that is the American way.
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes

<praefectus2324@y...>

> wrote:
> > america bashing. cute.
> > --- rory12001@y... <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > What's the general feeling on this?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Salve Cato;
> > > as this was put before: it means that European
> > cives from less
> > > weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia,
> > Serbia, cannot afford
> > > to be candidates
> > >
> > > It means cives from South America; from Brasil,
> > Peru, Argentina
> > > cannot afford to be candidates.
> > >
> > > It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the

Phillipines

> > cannot afford to be
> > > candidates.
> > >
> > > we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
> > > bene vale
> > > M. Armina Maior Fabiana
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > S P Q R
> >
> > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> >
> > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other

providers!

> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen






__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

G. Equitius Caro M. Arminae Maior Fabiae S.D.

salve, Maior Fabia.

Actually, I took great pains to point out that the proposed tiers
would, in fact, be calculated EXACTLY as taxes are now; this would
mean, for instance, that the "Fifth Class", or lowest tax bracket,
would be actually LOWER than the tax rate is now. It would also mean
that the highest ("First Class") would be only as comparably
expensive as $50 would be to a US citizen. I absolutely support
keeping as egalitarian a tax situation as possible; however, there is
nothing to be done about the simple fact that the United States is
rich. I would just remind you, and all our citizens, that just
because the United States is comparatively richer than most of the
world, this does NOT translate into our US citizens being necessarily
comparatively richer than citizens from any other country. To
suggest so is a fallacy.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> What's the general feeling on this?
> >
> >
> Salve Cato;
> as this was put before: it means that European cives from less
> weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia, Serbia, cannot
afford
> to be candidates
>
> It means cives from South America; from Brasil, Peru, Argentina
> cannot afford to be candidates.
>
> It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the Phillipines cannot afford to
be
> candidates.
>
> we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
> bene vale
> M. Armina Maior Fabiana

Maior! Boy, I screwed up both of our names! I apologize.

It should read:

"G. Equitius Cato M. Arminiae Maior Fabianae"

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

> G. Equitius Caro M. Arminae Maior Fabiae S.D.
>
> salve, Maior Fabia.
>
> Actually, I took great pains to point out that the proposed tiers
> would, in fact, be calculated EXACTLY as taxes are now; this would
> mean, for instance, that the "Fifth Class", or lowest tax bracket,
> would be actually LOWER than the tax rate is now. It would also

mean

> that the highest ("First Class") would be only as comparably
> expensive as $50 would be to a US citizen. I absolutely support
> keeping as egalitarian a tax situation as possible; however, there

is

> nothing to be done about the simple fact that the United States is
> rich. I would just remind you, and all our citizens, that just
> because the United States is comparatively richer than most of the
> world, this does NOT translate into our US citizens being

necessarily

> comparatively richer than citizens from any other country. To
> suggest so is a fallacy.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > What's the general feeling on this?
> > >
> > >
> > Salve Cato;
> > as this was put before: it means that European cives from less
> > weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia, Serbia, cannot
> afford
> > to be candidates
> >
> > It means cives from South America; from Brasil, Peru, Argentina
> > cannot afford to be candidates.
> >
> > It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the Phillipines cannot afford

to

> be
> > candidates.
> >
> > we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
> > bene vale
> > M. Armina Maior Fabiana

Ave Cato,

You continue to ignore one fact, when we venture into the real world
the prices people ask for the goods and services that Nova Roma needs
won't be based on Ivory Tower Eglatarian idealism. They will be based
on market value.

Nova Roma can attempt to isolate itself from reality in the world of
cyberspace, but it's a lot harder to do in the real world where you
have to deal with people who could care less about some ideals viewed
through rose colored glasses. The only thing these real world people
are going to care about is if we have the money to pay them.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

> G. Equitius Caro M. Arminae Maior Fabiae S.D.
>
> salve, Maior Fabia.
>
> Actually, I took great pains to point out that the proposed tiers
> would, in fact, be calculated EXACTLY as taxes are now; this would
> mean, for instance, that the "Fifth Class", or lowest tax bracket,
> would be actually LOWER than the tax rate is now. It would also mean
> that the highest ("First Class") would be only as comparably
> expensive as $50 would be to a US citizen. I absolutely support
> keeping as egalitarian a tax situation as possible; however, there is
> nothing to be done about the simple fact that the United States is
> rich. I would just remind you, and all our citizens, that just
> because the United States is comparatively richer than most of the
> world, this does NOT translate into our US citizens being necessarily
> comparatively richer than citizens from any other country. To
> suggest so is a fallacy.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > What's the general feeling on this?
> > >
> > >
> > Salve Cato;
> > as this was put before: it means that European cives from less
> > weathly countries like Estonia, Poland, Russia, Serbia, cannot
> afford
> > to be candidates
> >
> > It means cives from South America; from Brasil, Peru, Argentina
> > cannot afford to be candidates.
> >
> > It means cives from Cuba, Turkey, the Phillipines cannot afford to
> be
> > candidates.
> >
> > we'd be Nova America, not Nova Roma
> > bene vale
> > M. Armina Maior Fabiana

>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>

The previous unpleasant message was brought to you courtesy of
The Boni
who's motto is
"when you can't get elected use invective"

vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

---M. Arminia Maior Fabiana G.Equitio Catoni salutem dicit.
no problem!
some fun nomenclature notes;) my cognomen "Fabiana" is the cognomen
of adoption gens: Fabia + iana so that's why it isn't "Fabia". You
were pretty tough yourself as "Cato" is declined with an "N" also
Maior is odd...so for everyone: G. Equitio Cato M. Arminae Maiori
Fabianae....

>

Do excuse me I did miss that you discussed proration, but still a
lot of countries have big tax rates, so I don't know if that is
figured in.But my discomfort I believe is that of Cordus. Didn't he
object as it was like selling the office?

But really au fond, I'm quite Libertarian and uncomfortable with
taxing to get sesterces for NR, I prefer the entrepreneurial path, I
really believe NR can make real money this way, but as Faustus
says 'money for what?' so I am cautious this way.
in amicitia
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

>

Please ignore and excuse the repeat message, I had some kind of
computer error, I did not intend to resend it or restart a debate.
Maior

G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.

salve, Sicinius Drusus.

And, O Drusus, what *you* continue to ignore is that if we alienate
any large portion of our citizenry, i.e., anyone who is non-US, we
will lose not only revenue but that irreplaceable commodity,
goodwill. There are not words suitable to describe the depth of
folly that would be. You also ignore the idea that if taxes are
graded EXACTLY AS THEY ALREADY ARE, but with additional, higher tax
classes, we will end up with more money than we have now, regardless
of in what currency it is paid.

Not to mention, as I said before, the transition from cyber-existence
to "real world" existence is in the relatively distant future; to
jump in again with the "if we don't have the money NOW it's uselss"
mantra is self-defeating and unnecessary.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Dobbins" <drusus@b...> wrote:
> Ave Cato,
>
> You continue to ignore one fact, when we venture into the real world
> the prices people ask for the goods and services that Nova Roma
needs
> won't be based on Ivory Tower Eglatarian idealism. They will be
based
> on market value.
>
> Nova Roma can attempt to isolate itself from reality in the world of
> cyberspace, but it's a lot harder to do in the real world where you
> have to deal with people who could care less about some ideals
viewed
> through rose colored glasses. The only thing these real world people
> are going to care about is if we have the money to pay them.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...>
> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Caro M. Arminae Maior Fabiae S.D.
> >
> > salve, Maior Fabia.
> >
> > Actually, I took great pains to point out that the proposed tiers
> > would, in fact, be calculated EXACTLY as taxes are now; this
would
> > mean, for instance, that the "Fifth Class", or lowest tax
bracket,
> > would be actually LOWER than the tax rate is now. It would also
mean
> > that the highest ("First Class") would be only as comparably
> > expensive as $50 would be to a US citizen. I absolutely support
> > keeping as egalitarian a tax situation as possible; however,
there is
> > nothing to be done about the simple fact that the United States
is
> > rich. I would just remind you, and all our citizens, that just
> > because the United States is comparatively richer than most of
the
> > world, this does NOT translate into our US citizens being
necessarily
> > comparatively richer than citizens from any other country. To
> > suggest so is a fallacy.
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato

LOL,

Do you mean like you ignore the posibility of aleinating people with laws?

At least I'm doing it with the objective of improving our finicial
postion instead of doing it so I can feel I have some kind of power
over other people.

Sometimes you have to make tough choices Cato. Aquiring funding is one
of those times. We have to start building up funds now if we want that
real worold future. We can't simply snap our fingers and make a pile
of cash appear when we want it.

Of Course there are SOME people who have no problems with trying to
turn one citizen against another with some political ploy over a plan
that is intended to insure that Nova Roma has some money to put where
it's mouth is.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

> G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.
>
> salve, Sicinius Drusus.
>
> And, O Drusus, what *you* continue to ignore is that if we alienate
> any large portion of our citizenry, i.e., anyone who is non-US, we
> will lose not only revenue but that irreplaceable commodity,
> goodwill. There are not words suitable to describe the depth of
> folly that would be. You also ignore the idea that if taxes are
> graded EXACTLY AS THEY ALREADY ARE, but with additional, higher tax
> classes, we will end up with more money than we have now, regardless
> of in what currency it is paid.
>
> Not to mention, as I said before, the transition from cyber-existence
> to "real world" existence is in the relatively distant future; to
> jump in again with the "if we don't have the money NOW it's uselss"
> mantra is self-defeating and unnecessary.
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Dobbins" <drusus@b...> wrote:
> > Ave Cato,
> >
> > You continue to ignore one fact, when we venture into the real world
> > the prices people ask for the goods and services that Nova Roma
> needs
> > won't be based on Ivory Tower Eglatarian idealism. They will be
> based
> > on market value.
> >
> > Nova Roma can attempt to isolate itself from reality in the world of
> > cyberspace, but it's a lot harder to do in the real world where you
> > have to deal with people who could care less about some ideals
> viewed
> > through rose colored glasses. The only thing these real world people
> > are going to care about is if we have the money to pay them.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> <mlcinnyc@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > G. Equitius Caro M. Arminae Maior Fabiae S.D.
> > >
> > > salve, Maior Fabia.
> > >
> > > Actually, I took great pains to point out that the proposed tiers
> > > would, in fact, be calculated EXACTLY as taxes are now; this
> would
> > > mean, for instance, that the "Fifth Class", or lowest tax
> bracket,
> > > would be actually LOWER than the tax rate is now. It would also
> mean
> > > that the highest ("First Class") would be only as comparably
> > > expensive as $50 would be to a US citizen. I absolutely support
> > > keeping as egalitarian a tax situation as possible; however,
> there is
> > > nothing to be done about the simple fact that the United States
> is
> > > rich. I would just remind you, and all our citizens, that just
> > > because the United States is comparatively richer than most of
> the
> > > world, this does NOT translate into our US citizens being
> necessarily
> > > comparatively richer than citizens from any other country. To
> > > suggest so is a fallacy.
> > >
> > > vale,
> > >
> > > Cato

Ave Luci,

There is a very good reason why the leaders of the Religio Romana
haven't commented on Virtues and Ethics, or at least haven't commented
on them from the postion of Religous Leaders.

The Religio Romana dosen't concern itself with questions of Morality
or Ethics. The views of a Pontiff on what is and isn't moral are
personal viewpoints, they aren't in anyway some pronouncement of the
Religio. Ethics are left to the realm of Tradition (as expressed in
the Mos Maiorum) and Philosophy, not pronouncements from the Gods.

Pieity in the Religio Publica consists of fulfilling your duties
towards the Immortals by doing the proper rites at the proper time.
The Religio privitia is outside the sphere of the Pontifices, but
personally I consider it to consist of paying respect to the Gods of
the Home, and this would include the ancestors.

This isn't to say that Morals and Ethics aren't something that should
be of concern to people. It's simply that they are a subject that are
largely outside of the Religio Romana.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Pontifex

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lacedaemonius2004"
<lacedaemonius2004@y...> wrote:

> Salve,
> To My Freinds, Thank You for Your Support. I very much Appreciate it.
> The truth is, it is not in My nature just to give up on that which I
> believe. It took me 21 years to stop practicing AsaTru, When I felt I
> should have stopped after the first year. I am not a neo-viking. Nor
> ever tried to be.
> Whithin Nova Roma. I don't like all this fighting, yet I have also
> learned that some of the people involved in some of the most asinine
> fight truly do mean the best for our community. I think there are
> some nut jobs involved, yet also some very thought out people, who
> mean the best.
> I urge every one to vote. To pick where we as a Nation are heading. I
> ahve had some time to think, between the stress at work. the truth is
> I joined Nova Roma because I Love ROMA. I do believe in the Virtues
> and Ethics for which it stands Eternally. I don't believe in the
> Gutter That is promoted. If one follows the Religio, Truly follows
> the Religio one should promote Virtues and Ethics of our beliefs. For
> is not that what the Religio is all about. Some people caliam to
> follow the Religio and yet don't show true works. Remember that You
> are what comes out your mouth.
> I ask that Our Leaders within the Religio Consider what I am saying.
> I am not asking the Christian or the Hellenics or the Jewish Leaders
> To talk about this. I call on The Religio Leadears anf followers in
> mass to talk about where are we going. As we are not really growing.
> We are not at any stage to be proud of. This is not our leaders fault
> but all of ours.
> We can learn alot from the Druid's Groves and the AsaTruars Kindred
> system. We need to start developing the local Congregations to
> develop and expand our base.
> Also politicaly we need to develop our Local groups as this is the
> only way to make us one day become a Maco Nation.
> Lucius

G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.

Salve, Sicinius drusus.

Drusus, I'm not really sure what your post means, although I suspect
there's some sort of insult hidden in there. I won't be angry unless
I can figure out what you're trying to say :-)


The position I'm taking is that of tiered taxes calculated as our
taxes are now. How that fits into some sort of plot to hold "power
over" anybody else I'm not sure. Nor am I sure why you think it
would be "aleinating [sic --- to read 'alienating'] people with
laws." This sentence simply doesn't follow logically from anything
we've written about yet.

vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Dobbins" <drusus@b...> wrote:
> LOL,
>
> Do you mean like you ignore the posibility of aleinating people
with laws?
>
> At least I'm doing it with the objective of improving our finicial
> postion instead of doing it so I can feel I have some kind of power
> over other people.
>
> Sometimes you have to make tough choices Cato. Aquiring funding is
one
> of those times. We have to start building up funds now if we want
that
> real worold future. We can't simply snap our fingers and make a pile
> of cash appear when we want it.
>
> Of Course there are SOME people who have no problems with trying to
> turn one citizen against another with some political ploy over a
plan
> that is intended to insure that Nova Roma has some money to put
where
> it's mouth is.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...>
> wrote:
> > G. Equitius Cato L. Sicinio Druso S.D.
> >
> > salve, Sicinius Drusus.
> >
> > And, O Drusus, what *you* continue to ignore is that if we
alienate
> > any large portion of our citizenry, i.e., anyone who is non-US,
we
> > will lose not only revenue but that irreplaceable commodity,
> > goodwill. There are not words suitable to describe the depth of
> > folly that would be. You also ignore the idea that if taxes are
> > graded EXACTLY AS THEY ALREADY ARE, but with additional, higher
tax
> > classes, we will end up with more money than we have now,
regardless
> > of in what currency it is paid.
> >
> > Not to mention, as I said before, the transition from cyber-
existence
> > to "real world" existence is in the relatively distant future; to
> > jump in again with the "if we don't have the money NOW it's
uselss"
> > mantra is self-defeating and unnecessary.
> >
> > vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "John Dobbins" <drusus@b...>
wrote:
> > > Ave Cato,
> > >
> > > You continue to ignore one fact, when we venture into the real
world
> > > the prices people ask for the goods and services that Nova Roma
> > needs
> > > won't be based on Ivory Tower Eglatarian idealism. They will be
> > based
> > > on market value.
> > >
> > > Nova Roma can attempt to isolate itself from reality in the
world of
> > > cyberspace, but it's a lot harder to do in the real world where
you
> > > have to deal with people who could care less about some ideals
> > viewed
> > > through rose colored glasses. The only thing these real world
people
> > > are going to care about is if we have the money to pay them.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> > <mlcinnyc@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > G. Equitius Caro M. Arminae Maior Fabiae S.D.
> > > >
> > > > salve, Maior Fabia.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, I took great pains to point out that the proposed
tiers
> > > > would, in fact, be calculated EXACTLY as taxes are now; this
> > would
> > > > mean, for instance, that the "Fifth Class", or lowest tax
> > bracket,
> > > > would be actually LOWER than the tax rate is now. It would
also
> > mean
> > > > that the highest ("First Class") would be only as comparably
> > > > expensive as $50 would be to a US citizen. I absolutely
support
> > > > keeping as egalitarian a tax situation as possible; however,
> > there is
> > > > nothing to be done about the simple fact that the United
States
> > is
> > > > rich. I would just remind you, and all our citizens, that
just
> > > > because the United States is comparatively richer than most
of
> > the
> > > > world, this does NOT translate into our US citizens being
> > necessarily
> > > > comparatively richer than citizens from any other country.
To
> > > > suggest so is a fallacy.
> > > >
> > > > vale,
> > > >
> > > > Cato

Marcus Gladius Agricola SPQR SPD

Particularly in the case of a peregrinus who has served the State in
some way I agree that citizenship should be granted. After the end of
the service, of course.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus"
<postumianus@g...> wrote:

> Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus SPQR SPD
>
> Salvete,
>
> > IV. These requirements may be wholly or partially waived by the

Senate

> > in exceptional circumstances.
>
> May I offer this idea to the Senate:
>
> As a waiver to this proposal, as described above, the Senate pass a

consultum waiving the provisions of this proposal for those applicants
who have been citizens of a municipium or oppidum for x months? Since
the Lex Fabia does not, to my knowledge, disallow peregrini from being
citizens of municipia and oppida, they can, and I think a few months
in a local group would educate potential citizens, but more with
practice than study, it seems something of reasonable. Or how about
allowing those peregrini who are elected to whatever superior office
exists for the respective group (either duumvir or aedilis,
respectively) to automatically be granted citizenship? Also, as
another waiver, perhaps sponsorship by a curule magistrate, to include
provincial governors? If my knowledge of Roman history serves me
correctly, there is some historical precedent for all of these, though
I admit I could be wrong.

>
> Just a few ideas.
>
> Valete,
>
> Q. Caecilius Metellus

Salvete omnes,

Maxima Valeria Messallina speaks with great wisdom. A probationary
period and some serious questions are in order, IMHO. Maxima Valeria
Messallina suggests a special venue for new citizen introductions. I
would suggest that in general the new citizen's gens is the proper
place. I want to encourage all the mater/paterfamilies to ensure that
some kind of mentoring system is on place. It may be that not all
gentes can do this, so a group like the "newroman" list would also be
a good choice.

M. Gladius Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima <violetphearsen@y...> wrote:
> Numerius Gladius Bibulus <bobochan_vt@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Senator Gnaee Equiti omnesque,
>
> I am a new citizen but I have been following main list for the past
> month and read the new-citizen threads with great interest. One thing
> that struck me about going through the citizenship process was that I
> was never asked "Why do you want to be a citizen?" While a Google
> search can instantly find any test taker "396 BC" as the year the
> Gauls sacked Rome, the "why" question is much more challenging.
> Answering this, hopefully in two or three paragraphs, will give
> prospective citizens a chance to explain their interests, motivations
> and expectations.
>
> Furthermore, I propose that upon acceptance of citizenship the answer
> should be posted to either the main list or another suitable list.
> This could be done in the context of a welcoming introduction which
> would help the new citizen to make connections to people with similar
> interests.
>
>
> Salve
>
> As a new citizen and having just gone through the application
process, myself, I like your suggestion about asking prospective new
members why they want to become citizens of Nova Roma, as well as
giving them a chance to state their interests and motivations.
>
> However, I don't think the main list is the place to post those
answers. A separate page, I think, would be better. Another group I
belong to has this procedure: a notice is posted on the main page that
a new member has joined. Members can then go to the "Newbie Page"
where a small bio introduces the newest member to the group. The bio
includes the person's interests, skills and talents as well as the
reasons for why they've joined the group. Members then post welcomes
and connections are made. It works quite well and really makes our
newbies feel welcomed.
>
> Vale
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>

Salvete Quirites !


Does somebody knows which kind of music the Romans listened to ?

Gratiae.

Valete !

Titus Apollonius Germanicus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Domitius Constantinus Fuscus and Caius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus !

As both of you are candidates for the quaestorship, could you tell me why I should vote for one of you ?

Gratiae.
Titus Apollonius Germanicus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

I have read with a lot of attention all that you have written about the taxes, their distribution between the citizens and their later use. But there is a couple of things that I worry about, and I would like to ask you.

First, I am inscribed in other societies apart from Nova Roma. One of them is devoted to the study of the antiquity and I pay 30$ each year. In exchange for that money, I receive every year a scientific magazine and every two years the society celebrates a congress in which the society pays me the expenses of transport, hotel and maintenance. So, I believe that my money is very invested there, because I receive the enough considerations. My question is: If the citizens will pay more money in Nova Roma, what do we receive to change? This year I have paid my taxes, but Nova Roma has not given me anything.

Second, Inside this program of investment of money that you have been mentioned in some occasions, where the provinciae are? Nova Rome will support its development investing money in them?

Vale bene,

Pompeianus.



---------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites,

I need to point out an error, perhaps of memory, in this post by
Quintus Fabius Maximus.

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
[while endorsing Gaius Popillius Laenas]

> we have a reliable person who has never resigned

In fact, Popillius Laenas did resign as propraetor and was later reinstated
by the Senate.

Both candidates for the Praetorship are qualified. Both have resigned an
office at one time. As convening magistrate I endorse neither, but I want
everyone to know the facts. I would be pleased to see either one as
Praetor, and I look forward to *someone* being Praetor soon.

Valete,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Salvete Quirites, et salve Tite Apolloni,

> Does somebody knows which kind of music the Romans listened to?

Not exactly, no. But there are people who make reasonable guesses
and who've created compositions based on what they *think* it was
like. Some of it can be purchased through the Macellum, and some
is available online. The Roman musical recreation is by, I think,
a group called Siunella.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus Pontifex,
With all Due Respect. It is. The reason why, is to encourage the
growth of the Religio. To see that it is expanded from the dormant
state that it is. To safe gaurd it from having the Label that it is a
Whako religion.
I firmly believe that it can grow to the state it once held if the
course is steared correctly. We do owe that to the Gods. Ourselves
Also.
Look I am not some nut how sprouts off. I pay my Taxes and will keep
doing so No matter what comes out. Only reason I do so is to see Nova
Roma strive.
But I do believe that a Social contract is at hand between the Gods
and ourselves. No one is going to follow a bunch of kooks. Proper
social behavior is needed.
I know some what of you, not alot and surly not to a point to point a
finger at you. But let me ask you, beyond the computor screen how
many of your fellow Religio leaders have any form of professional
training? How many have studied in a Academic situation or outside
Reiligion? I am not saying any thing against anyone who has not, but
that is the point.
Any religion that says nothing about Virtues and Ethics is not going
to fufill the mass of followers.
I believe that we get Ethics and Virtues from the Gods themSelves.
With all dues Respect to You.
Luci

Gaius Modius Athanasius M. Arminiae Maior Fabianae salutem dicit

I am disappointed. I am an acknowledged Bonus, and you left me off your
list. Also, what about the 15 or so other Boni who are not as public about their
affiliation that did not make your list?

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 8/1/2004 2:46:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:
And Calvus you never let me knew how you felt, I actually regarded
you as a cohors friend, before this post. Not very nice of you to
suddenly show up and condemn me -Boni
. But can't we run a clean campaign without smearing other people?
Was what Diana Octavia said about Pompeia when she ran for Censor
fair? -Boni
Was Diana's behavior on the ML in regard to our Consul virtuous?

Is Sicinius Drusus's words on the ML respectful or tolerant - Boni

Hasn't Scaurus said worse things on the ML, he cursed and doesn't
seems to want our Christian cives to run for office - Boni
and he's not censored whereas I was and have obeyed the law.

So please don't attack me & it's not in Po's interest to rehash the
old behavior, as I said if we are going to give Vedius Germanicus a
new chance; doesn't Po deserve one!
and one more thing, friendship & loyalty transcend
politics....
vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius M. Arminiae Maior Fabianae salutem dicit

Especially when you used it as an attack on the opinion of someone you work
with.

This has been an on-going problem. You do not take correction, from both
your equals or your superiors, very well. You ignored me when I had suggested
you watch yourself, and you ignored at least one pontifex. This attitude is why
you are no longer a sacerdos in Nova Roma.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:02:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:
Salvete Quirites;
I wish to apologize to the MainList for invoking the Censor's name
when it is in his strict instructions that we never involve the
cohors in politics. Even to do so in defense is no excuse. I am
culpable and it was entirely wrong.

valete
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

This is a good point. If Strabo was truly serious about getting back her
dignitas, that was (in my opinion) lost when she resigned as Praetor, Propraetor,
Senator, and all the sodalitas offices, then she would start at the bottom
again and earn the respect of the people. She felt she had to resign from
office. I'll honor that, and not vote for her for Praetor. She had her
opportunity as Praetor and decided she could no longer fulfill her oath.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:59:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
richmal@... writes:
Does Po deserve a second chance? Of course she does, but in my
opinion she can start by running for something a little more humble
than Praetor or Censor and then prove herself to me that the past is
past. I'm willing to give Vedius Germanicus a second chance as well
and willing to give him the chance to prove it as well.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit

There is a difference between resigning as Propraetor (an appointed position)
as Laenas did -- he served his whole term as Tribunus Plebis, and resigning
as both PRAETOR, Propraetor, Senator, and from all other positions she held
(which was at least one sodalitas position) as Strabo did.

You make them sound like EQUAL resignations. They were NOT. Laenas needed a
break. He took it, and he is Propraetor again, the senate felt he was
capable of assuming the responsibility again. Strabo on the other had was not
admitted back into the senate. She didn't just need a break, she wanted out!

As you said in an e-mail shortly after she resigned as Praetor:

"I read her explanation as saying that she could not in conscience uphold her
oaths of office any longer, because they bind her to the protection of the
Religio Romana. Therefore she resigned from all the offices which had required
that oathbinding from her.

I think she wants to feel at liberty to speak out against those people she
considers religious bigots. Of course, I could be wrong. But that was my take on
her logic.

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus"

This seems like a reasonable summary of Strabo's resignation. Why would
anyone vote for someone who COULD NOT keep the oath of office?

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 8/1/2004 9:01:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gawne@... writes:
In fact, Popillius Laenas did resign as propraetor and was later reinstated
by the Senate.

Both candidates for the Praetorship are qualified. Both have resigned an
office at one time. As convening magistrate I endorse neither, but I want
everyone to know the facts. I would be pleased to see either one as
Praetor, and I look forward to *someone* being Praetor soon.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

As a priest in Nova Roma I am concered with "fulfilling" and pleasing the
Gods. This is called the Pax Deorum. If the masses are pleased in the process
then that is good.

As an Orthopraxic faith the priessts have a responsibility to the Gods, as do
the Paters and Maters, and the Magistrates...all on behalf of the state or
their families.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 8/1/2004 9:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lacedaemonius2004@... writes:
Any religion that says nothing about Virtues and Ethics is not going
to fufill the mass of followers.
I believe that we get Ethics and Virtues from the Gods themSelves.
With all dues Respect to You.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.D.

Salve, Athanasius.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
>
> As a priest in Nova Roma I am concered with "fulfilling" and
pleasing the
> Gods. This is called the Pax Deorum. If the masses are pleased
in the process
> then that is good.

CATO: And if the masses are *not* pleased, they may turn to one of
the Mystery cults or a "foreign religion", like the worship of Isis
or Mithras or Serapis, or Judaism, or Christianity, because the
Religio Romana may have left them feeling empty. So they may
abandon it. Which, in fact, actually happened historically. Have we
learned nothing? Do you not believe that the gods *want* us to be
happy in our public worship of them?

vale,

Cato


> In a message dated 8/1/2004 9:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lacedaemonius2004@y... writes:
> Any religion that says nothing about Virtues and Ethics is not
going
> to fufill the mass of followers.
> I believe that we get Ethics and Virtues from the Gods themSelves.
> With all dues Respect to You.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,
I differ to those with more knowlege on this point. The rest I let
stand.
Luci

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo, then known as P. Cornelia Strabo, resigned
from her responsibilities and obligations in part because of the actions of a
brand new citizen at the time: Galus Agorius Taurinus. Taurinus was a radical
follower of the Religio who WAS intolerant of Christians, and who upset many
people -- including myself.

The point however, was that part of her decision of resignation was because a
new member of Nova Roma was spilling his verbal vomit on the main list, and
she was so taken aback by this that she resigned and lumped other believers in
the Religio Romana in the same category as Galus Agorius Taurinus. Poor
judgement?

The text of her resignation can be found at:

http://www.novaroma.org/forum/mainlist/2002/2002-10-30.html#M0030

The response I wrote then was written when I was a fairly new citizen, and a
citizen who had never heard of the Boni at the time. My commentary on
Strabo's resignation is listed in full below:

"G. Cassius Nerva was allowed to say some controversial things yet he was not
accused of blasphemy. It is my personal opinion that anyone who "leaves" an
organization on the grounds that the Praetor did is simply "looking for a
reason" to leave, and is reacting emotionally. It is also my opinion that
magistrates, especially our senior magistrates, need to be unemotional as
possible and lead with a cool head, and logic. I found the former Praetor's
"good-bye" message to be very emotional and reactionary, and for a senior
magistrate to act as she did over the actions a new citizen (of only a few
days) shows emotional instability -- in my opinion.

It is also my belief that the Constitution should remain unchanged.
Christians and Pagans have enjoyed each others company since the foundation
of our Republic, we can continue to work together. One of the goals of Nova
Roma is the resurrection and restoration of Roman Religion, we cannot
accomplish this goal if the it is not legislated for and protected.

Tolerance needs to be stressed from the top down. From the Consuls and
Censors to the Propraetors and Legates. No further legislation is necessary
on this subject -- in my opinion. You cannot legislate tolerance, you have
to practice it.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius"

The words I issued back in 2002 are still true to me now.

This is why I will not vote for Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo. She is
simply not stable enough to be a senator and senior Magistrate. To vote for Strabo
is an injustice to Nova Roma and the dignitas of our Republic. She might be
a wonderful person. As a nurse, I am sure she is a compassionate and caring
person. But fair in judgement? Able to lead? Able to handle stress and
pressure? In possession of the mental fortitude necessary to be a capable and able
magistrate? I don't believe so.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Tribunus Plebis
Pontifex, Augur, and Flamen Pomonalis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Cato,

While this wasn't addressed to me, I do have to respond to this.

> Do you not believe that the gods *want* us to be
> happy in our public worship of them?

As a matter of belief, that is irrelevent. The Gods do not exist to make us happy, we exist to make them happy. To assume it works the other way around is not only humanly arrogant and a clear case of hubris, in my opinion, but is also pretty damn ignorant. "Have we learned nothing?" You ask the wrong question. "Do you know nothing of Roman religion?" That is the better question.

Vale,

Metellus

Salve;

Sure, I believe the people should get something out of the Religio -- I do!

However, if man is put before the Gods then we have a religion of men and not
GODS.

You're Orthodox....

If several members of your church said, "We don't like the Divine Liturgy as
it is...its too 'foreign,' why don't we have a ritual like the Lutherans."
The response would be a very thundering NO, and no sense of justification would
change that. To use a different liturgy, other than the beautiful litury of
St. John Chrystostom would go counter to the Orthodoxy of the Greek and
Russian Orthodox faiths.

A similar philosophy is within the Religo. I believe SOME modernism have to
be adopted, like Drusus said to me once, "you cannot adopt a historical
solution to an ahistorical problem; you will get an ahistorical solution." Some
"innovation" is necessary at times.

However, we need to stay TRUE to the Orthopraxy of the Religio Romana. This
is essential in order to effectively rebuild the Religio. To abandon this
Orthopraxy would be an injustice to the Gods.

I hope this sheds some light on my position.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Pontifex

In a message dated 8/1/2004 11:04:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:
CATO: And if the masses are *not* pleased, they may turn to one of
the Mystery cults or a "foreign religion", like the worship of Isis
or Mithras or Serapis, or Judaism, or Christianity, because the
Religio Romana may have left them feeling empty. So they may
abandon it. Which, in fact, actually happened historically. Have we
learned nothing? Do you not believe that the gods *want* us to be
happy in our public worship of them?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Cato,
Actually that is my point. But, Where does one Stand. Maybe just
being Moral ones on self. I do not know, I know that I Follow my on
line in this. I do believe that alot of freedom is left in action,
yet what seperates us between animals? ? ?
I do not know. Except that which we do.
Luci

Salve Metellus,
What do any one know.....Religio is both for the Gods and ones on
heart. I believe because it is in my heart to Believe.
The point on the Religio wither we admit it or not "is to give so
that we may get" is this not true? with that said is not the grow of
the Religio in the Self intrest of the Gods? So that they May Get?
We Followers of the Religio are a strange lot.. WE truly are. Die
Hard. More akin to the Boer/Afrikkaners " Bitter Enders", We Want so
hard, Believe so hard. Yet if we paly our pees and quees right we
could see our dream reality.
Luci

Salve Cato,
The problem is that as long as their has been a choice of what
religion to follow there will always be that. It is not about a
certain religion not being able to provide for the masses, because
clearly as history indicates, it would be quite impossible to please
everyone. When asian traditions reached Greece, it was the same.
There were still "converters".
In fact even in this day and age we can easily say that most of us
were not raised pagan, much less as a roman poltheist. We probably
encountered christianity, or judiasm, or any other religion that is
part of the culture around us, throughout our lives... and yet still
we found the religio. And with less effort then it took to raise
converters in ages past for the other religions. Most of us did not
hear someone speak of the religio.. minister about it. We were drawn
to it because something within us answered to it. And before internet
many of us were completely alone in worship of the gods.
Point being that there is no massive, for all the masses, religion.
No religion is going to please everybody. And while, yes in the past
followers left for other religious interests, not all did. It took
the force of a converted in power to be able to close the doors on
the religio.
So, I personally have no problem in not pleasing the masses, but
rather just go to pleasing the gods.

Lucia Modia Lupa


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio S.D.
>
> Salve, Athanasius.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
> >
> > As a priest in Nova Roma I am concered with "fulfilling" and
> pleasing the
> > Gods. This is called the Pax Deorum. If the masses are pleased
> in the process
> > then that is good.
>
> CATO: And if the masses are *not* pleased, they may turn to one of
> the Mystery cults or a "foreign religion", like the worship of Isis
> or Mithras or Serapis, or Judaism, or Christianity, because the
> Religio Romana may have left them feeling empty. So they may
> abandon it. Which, in fact, actually happened historically. Have

we

> learned nothing? Do you not believe that the gods *want* us to be
> happy in our public worship of them?
>
> vale,
>
> Cato
>
>
> > In a message dated 8/1/2004 9:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > lacedaemonius2004@y... writes:
> > Any religion that says nothing about Virtues and Ethics is not
> going
> > to fufill the mass of followers.
> > I believe that we get Ethics and Virtues from the Gods themSelves.
> > With all dues Respect to You.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano
S.P.D.

salvete, virii.

Caecilius Metellus Postumianus wrote:

"As a matter of belief, that is irrelevent. The Gods do not exist to
make us happy, we exist to make them happy. To assume it works the
other way around is not only humanly arrogant and a clear case of
hubris, in my opinion, but is also pretty damn ignorant. "Have we
learned nothing?" You ask the wrong question. 'Do you know nothing
of Roman religion?' That is the better question."

And that, O Metellus, is exactly the kind of attitude that drove the
People away from the religio and caused the breach of the pax deorum
to be realized. As I mentioned earlier, even before the advent of
Christianity, Romans were flocking to faiths that gave them a sense
of well-being and personal connection to the Divine, while allowing
the strict, cold observance of the orthopraxy of the religio to be
carried on in the name of the State. This is not a "New Age"-y kind
of thing, it is not a "warm fuzzy" misdirection --- it is the
ageless cry of the human spirit to try to draw close to the Divine.
It is *precisely* why Christianity was able to gain such swift
observance by a vast population across the Empire. When I
ask, "Have we learned nothing?", I am asking "Do you not recognize
the desire --- no, even the DEMAND --- by the People to have some
kind of connection to that which they worship?" If you do not, and
dismiss it as arrogantly as you do in your quote above, then your
abrupt dismissal will, inevitably, lead to the same result as it has
already been proven that it will. The abandonment of the religio.
The breach of the pax deorum.

Modius Athanasius wrote:

"However, we need to stay TRUE to the Orthopraxy of the Religio
Romana. This is essential in order to effectively rebuild the
Religio. To abandon this Orthopraxy would be an injustice to the
Gods. I hope this sheds some light on my position."

This I have no argument with, Athanasius, and I understand exactly
what you mean when you bring it into the context of Orthodox
worship. I believe that the orthopraxy of the religio should
absolutely continue. I guess what I am trying to suggest is that
there may be an historical way of reviving the religio in such a
manner that there *is* more of a general sense of connectedness and
belonging. The ancients failed. Can we not do better? Perhaps we
are hindered by the fact that we in general are not together,
standing at the Altar of Concord; even if I must stand to the side
and merely observe, I would be with you. How do we bring that sense
of (for lack of a better word) "fellowship" out of the cold
orthopraxy of the religio? I do not know. I think it is essential,
however, that we strive to find that sense. Otherwise the religio
will die.

I hope this makes my position clearer as well.

valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Roland Pirard" <roland.pirard@s...>
wrote:

> Salvete Quirites !
>
>
> Does somebody knows which kind of music the Romans listened to ?
>
> Gratiae.
>
> Valete !
>
> Titus Apollonius Germanicus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmm... We know that they used the hydraulis
http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/nenning8.jpg (water organ)
to accompany sports in the amphitheaters
http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/gladiatr/arena.htm Probably
sounded something like a hockey game <GRIN>

The organ keys were huge, with heavy return springs. The organist of
the middle ages was called "pulsator organorum" - "Organ beater", not
sure what earlier players were called, but it is a good bet that the
playing style was the same. Notice in the illustration that the
organist can see over the tops of the pipes. Probably to watch the
action AND to get his weight over the keys.

One organ survives from Roman times:
http://www.orgona.hu/orgonaink/tuzolto_orgona_e.html

This doesn't tell you what they played, but at least we can get an
idea of what was possible and what was impossible.


vale!

M. Gladius Agricola

I rather enjoy the fact that so much discussion is going on here..
despite some of the negativity thrown around, and certain citizens
having to clarify their ideas several times over to other citizens,
it's better assurance that things are done right and hammered out to
a workable shape before a final proposal finally goes to vote.

As a side note, whatever the correct latin revision may be, I'd like
to personally endorse you, Calvus, as Curator Araneum. You've shown
yourself to be a fine upstanding citizen in my eyes, even in the
relatively short time I've been reading the Main List. I've gotten to
know quite a few of you by proxy by observing your character in the
face of insults, illogical arguments, and whateve else may be thrown
your way.

Also, Calvus.. The position might be idealistically perfect for you
as well. I imagine the position provides little in the way of
burecratic talk and much more in the way of the ability to take
decisive action. You have my vote when the time comes. :-)

Vale,
Kaelus Iulius

>Salvete,

I've been following the tax reform threads with interest. Now I hae
a question. Why is it that in Nova Roma nothing can be simple? I
think Hadrianus suggestion was the best and simplest of them all.
By the time I've read through all the threads no matter what the
discussion even the simplest concept becomes as much a tangled mess
as Medusa having a bad hair day.

Valete,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites, et salve Tite Apolloni,
>
> > Does somebody knows which kind of music the Romans listened to?
>
> Not exactly, no. But there are people who make reasonable guesses
> and who've created compositions based on what they *think* it was
> like. Some of it can be purchased through the Macellum, and some
> is available online. The Roman musical recreation is by, I think,
> a group called Siunella.
>
> --
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

I have the "Wind Instruments" edition from Synaulia myself. It's a
reasonable re-construction, but I must interject that it seems most
if not all of the compostions are original to our modern age, but
based in the appropriate meter with the appropriate instruments, in
the [assumed] style that they were played. The quality I feel is a
bit lessened by the fact that they take from some later sources,
though that's reasonable, of course. However, one of the things that
bothers me particularly is that they insert screams, yelps, talking,
and various other sounds. While to some this may create a
more "realistic" ambient atmosphere to the music.. I think it's just
plain distracting from the music. Unfortunately, it's probably the
best out there; I'm not convinced most of it even sounds like ancient
Roman music might have. We have Greek music, for example, that had
not only the verse recorded, but actual notation of the music is
extant as well.. and this supports some of the best re-creation of
music from antiquity. It would be reasonable to assume with all the
other elements Rome syncretised from Greece, including the majority
of artistic forms, that the music from Synaulia would resemble the
Greek in character... If not in exact form. It's doesn't. At all. The
music is decent, and worth listening to, but the Greek
reconstructions I have (Music of Ancient Greece by Christodoulos
Halaris), is some of the best music I've heard. Of any time period.
And it's about as authentic as you can possibly get.

So, yes. Synaulia is fairly good. Despite the little bit of venting
at my personal dissapointment with it (the "wind" album at least),
it's definately worth lending from your local library for an extended
period of time if they have it. But I don't think it would measure up
to a lot of peoples expectations. Check it out, decide for yourself,
and get some ancient Greek music in addition to it. There's a marked
difference in quality and probably historical accuracy, at least from
the two examples I own.

Vale,
Kaelus Iulius

Well said, Lupa. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I'm still working on what we discussed, by the way. I've been
massively busy as of late, and I've had little oppurtunity to get
online because of cable problems as well, so I apologise.

Vale bene,
Kaelus Iulius

Salve, omnes.

A fundamental point that I think has been overlooked is that while
there may have been a move to dally with more exotic "pagan" cults in
RA and subsequently Christianity, this came at a time when in general
what made someone a Roman was less to do with ones ancestors and more
to do with whether you were born inside the borders of the Empire or
not. Roman blood no longer equated to citizenship. Observance of
ritual was likewise not instictive through upbringing.

The fact that people turned to these exotic cults and Christianity is
more evidence, I feel, of the failure of the policy to make the Roman
citizenship universal within the borders of the Empire. A parallel
can be seen even in NR that simply granting citizenship here does not
produce magically a Roman or even a reconstructed or new Roman.

As for Rome itself, it had become politically and militarily
increasingly vunerable and subsequently irrelevant. The loss of Rome
as center of government and power and the subsequent division of the
Empire I feel also led to a decline in observance of the necessary
rituals.

Observance of the rituals at a state level was and is an absolute
necessity, but observance of the rituals at the level of hearth and
home was also essential. A failure at this level would lead to
ignorance and dismissal of the state rituals. Compound that with a
polyglot society of Roman citizens rather than Romans and you have
the start of the fracturing of the Pax Deorum.

So in conclusion it is I feel incorrect to look to the exotic cults
and conclude that the more esoteric aspects of their doctrines was
the base of their appeal. Rather it was a failure of individuals to
observe the rituals, a flawed approach to citizenship, and also the
pressure of the times through the disassociation of Rome itself as a
capital centre in anything but name with the pressure that placed on
the continuance of ritual. The final collapse of the Pax Deorum
through the actions of a consumate traitor was the culmination of the
failure of individuals - not the Religio.

People fail Immortals; Immortals cannot fail people.

Vale
Gn. Iulius Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano
> S.P.D.
>
> salvete, virii.
>
> Caecilius Metellus Postumianus wrote:
>
> "As a matter of belief, that is irrelevent. The Gods do not exist

to

> make us happy, we exist to make them happy. To assume it works the
> other way around is not only humanly arrogant and a clear case of
> hubris, in my opinion, but is also pretty damn ignorant. "Have we
> learned nothing?" You ask the wrong question. 'Do you know nothing
> of Roman religion?' That is the better question."
>
> And that, O Metellus, is exactly the kind of attitude that drove

the

> People away from the religio and caused the breach of the pax

deorum

> to be realized. As I mentioned earlier, even before the advent of
> Christianity, Romans were flocking to faiths that gave them a sense
> of well-being and personal connection to the Divine, while allowing
> the strict, cold observance of the orthopraxy of the religio to be
> carried on in the name of the State. This is not a "New Age"-y

kind

> of thing, it is not a "warm fuzzy" misdirection --- it is the
> ageless cry of the human spirit to try to draw close to the

Divine.

> It is *precisely* why Christianity was able to gain such swift
> observance by a vast population across the Empire. When I
> ask, "Have we learned nothing?", I am asking "Do you not recognize
> the desire --- no, even the DEMAND --- by the People to have some
> kind of connection to that which they worship?" If you do not, and
> dismiss it as arrogantly as you do in your quote above, then your
> abrupt dismissal will, inevitably, lead to the same result as it

has

> already been proven that it will. The abandonment of the religio.
> The breach of the pax deorum.
>
> Modius Athanasius wrote:
>
> "However, we need to stay TRUE to the Orthopraxy of the Religio
> Romana. This is essential in order to effectively rebuild the
> Religio. To abandon this Orthopraxy would be an injustice to the
> Gods. I hope this sheds some light on my position."
>
> This I have no argument with, Athanasius, and I understand exactly
> what you mean when you bring it into the context of Orthodox
> worship. I believe that the orthopraxy of the religio should
> absolutely continue. I guess what I am trying to suggest is that
> there may be an historical way of reviving the religio in such a
> manner that there *is* more of a general sense of connectedness and
> belonging. The ancients failed. Can we not do better? Perhaps we
> are hindered by the fact that we in general are not together,
> standing at the Altar of Concord; even if I must stand to the side
> and merely observe, I would be with you. How do we bring that

sense

> of (for lack of a better word) "fellowship" out of the cold
> orthopraxy of the religio? I do not know. I think it is

essential,

> however, that we strive to find that sense. Otherwise the religio
> will die.
>
> I hope this makes my position clearer as well.
>
> valete,
>
> Cato

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

I would like to welcome Rodacilla Modia Sappho into Gens Modia.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Pater Familias


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave

Sure, I was wondering about when such questions would had started to come :)

Well, as the Constitution says, the quaestors "shall have the power and
obligation to administer those funds that shall be allocated to them by the
Senate in its annual budget under the supervision of that magistrate to whom
they are assigned. Those quaestors assigned directly to the consuls shall
supervise the whole of the aerarium (treasury), but no funds may be spent
without the prior approval of the Senate"

Now, if elected, I'll have to work with Marcus Iulius Perusianus, who is mostly
busy with the Magna Mater project.

Well, I happen to live in the same city Perusianus live (Rome), which makes a
possible collaboration about the project quite more effective, as we have the
uncommon (for Nova Roma) chance of planning and working on the project talking
vis-a-vis, which the other candidate (who I exteem, btw), can't. Also, that
makes me in a position to effectively help with the project in more than a mere
admonistrative way, as I can, for instance, work directly on the contacts and
PR (which, given the MM site is here, is mostly about italian and roman
academics and bureocrats). So much that Perusianus himself publically endorsed
my candidacy a while back, I think (or was on the provinical mailing list?
Argh, with so many hundreds of posts sometimes is hard to keep track, but I
think it was on this main list). I guess that's the main reason, I think, one
should choose one above the other.

I might go on with personal qualifications, as previous administrative
experiences, study titles and so on, but I think that such things, considering
the amount of money we are talking about (not too large, I'm afraid), are
mostly unimportant at the moment (yet I shall name them, if required).

I hope that was satisfactory and I'm always up for answering to more questions

Vale

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis



Scrive Roland Pirard <roland.pirard@...>:

> Salvete Domitius Constantinus Fuscus and Caius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
> !
>
> As both of you are candidates for the quaestorship, could you tell me why I
> should vote for one of you ?
>
> Gratiae.
> Titus Apollonius Germanicus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ave Mr. Dobbins

You continue to ignore another fact, in your americanocentric view.. the 108
acres of land could be bought (if they have to be bought right now) in another
country than the US, just like most of any other good and service NR might
need.

Drop the crap about the real world being a hard place where no one gives you
nothing for nothing, because that's true, of course, but there are different
markets than your own, different prices and different mentalities, even if they
are beyond your comprehension.

You know what? If you really need 108 acres of land, developable and not being a
total and unuseful desert, we can start looking in the balkans, or in Poland.
I'm sure something reasonable can be found at a lower place than in the US and,
thanx to the conversion and different living cost, your tax dollars would be
more valuable here there than in the US.

Reporting all the financial values and needs to a fixed dollar value is, indeed,
borderline to xenophobic and shows the total lack of understanding of how an
*INTERNATIONAL* organization works.


Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
PF Constantinia
Aedilis Urbis




Scrive John Dobbins <drusus@...>:

> Ave Cato,
>
> You continue to ignore one fact, when we venture into the real world
> the prices people ask for the goods and services that Nova Roma needs
> won't be based on Ivory Tower Eglatarian idealism. They will be based
> on market value.
>
> Nova Roma can attempt to isolate itself from reality in the world of
> cyberspace, but it's a lot harder to do in the real world where you
> have to deal with people who could care less about some ideals viewed
> through rose colored glasses. The only thing these real world people
> are going to care about is if we have the money to pay them.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>

The difficult thing about anything international is that everyone
wants things to be started in their own backyard. And everyone has a
very valid reason that it should be set up where they are at. Those
who are in the US would want it in the US, simply because that is
where we are at. And yes there are places here where one can buy a
large stretch of land, you just may not personally like all the
options available enviroment wise where there is alot of land. Where
I am at, yes there is alot of land for grab... but the down factor is
that it is cold here. We have long winters. And that very idea would
turn most Nova Romans off.
You raise a good argument that it could be in some place in Europe
for financial reasons, however I know that there are probably other
reasons others would use. One could suggest that it should be, has to
be in Italy, because that is where Rome is and was. The same argument
when discussion was being raised about where to have the
international get together.
No matter what, you are going to get a small percent saying they want
it in said location and the rest digging their heels in and screaming
NO!!!! And it is not that their reasons, or your reasons are any more
or less valid. But rather that is just how people are. No one is
going to want to move to a place where they don't know the language
(and that goes for both ways, no matter what country is chosen), and
ideally what would be wanted if one was to get a large peice of land
like that was to at least have many who are there using the land,
rather then a peice of land going unused. And on a large peice of
land of that size, it would be an incredibly waste of money.

My guess would be that it would come to where it would be more
beneficial. The hard truth is the capitol would probably be in a
country where there are more citizens. I haven't a clue which has
more Nova Roman citizens at this time. I don't particularly care. But
that would be the logical guess. No matter how much cheaper you can
get the land, it would do not benefit if there weren't enough
citizens to make use of it. That would be like saying one should buy
land in Greenland because you could get a bunch of land really really
cheap.. and exactly how many people are going to make at regular
trips to Greenland much less live there *lol*

Personally I do not think it matters a great deal which country the
forum is in. As I am certain that no matter where it is located
people will still try to get large lands near where they are at. Rome
certainly was not the only large city. So I hardly doubt that
wherever the capital/Forum/Whatever is put that it would be the only
sizable chunk a land that will ever be bought in the history of Nova
Roma. Those who want land bad enough in their area will go through
the efforts to raise the money to purchase the land. If one had a
fundraiser and saved a big chunk of money, and then petitioned the
senate to buy said peice of land with said money that they raised. I
doubt there would be any problems. Right now the fact of the matter
is there is going to be squabbling over where the first large chunk
of land is going to be bought. And cost is deifnently not the only
factor to consider.

Lucia Modia Lupa


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:

> Ave Mr. Dobbins
>
> You continue to ignore another fact, in your americanocentric

view.. the 108

> acres of land could be bought (if they have to be bought right now)

in another

> country than the US, just like most of any other good and service

NR might

> need.
>
> Drop the crap about the real world being a hard place where no one

gives you

> nothing for nothing, because that's true, of course, but there are

different

> markets than your own, different prices and different mentalities,

even if they

> are beyond your comprehension.
>
> You know what? If you really need 108 acres of land, developable

and not being a

> total and unuseful desert, we can start looking in the balkans, or

in Poland.

> I'm sure something reasonable can be found at a lower place than in

the US and,

> thanx to the conversion and different living cost, your tax dollars

would be

> more valuable here there than in the US.
>
> Reporting all the financial values and needs to a fixed dollar

value is, indeed,

> borderline to xenophobic and shows the total lack of understanding

of how an

> *INTERNATIONAL* organization works.
>
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
>
>
>
>

I forgot to mention that I found americanocetric crap to be just
that.. crap. I am sure some folks in other countries would get very
ruffled if it was used against them. Wanting things accessible to
many people is not amercianocentric, no more then if someone from
france wanted it there is franceocentric, or from germany
germanocentric, from italy italiocentric, from britian
britianocentric. I think you get the idea.
All in all it very offensive, no matter who it is used against. And
frankly I find it rather snobby.

Lucia Modia Lupa

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" <lucia_modia_lupa@y...>
wrote:

> The difficult thing about anything international is that everyone
> wants things to be started in their own backyard. And everyone has

a

> very valid reason that it should be set up where they are at. Those
> who are in the US would want it in the US, simply because that is
> where we are at. And yes there are places here where one can buy a
> large stretch of land, you just may not personally like all the
> options available enviroment wise where there is alot of land.

Where

> I am at, yes there is alot of land for grab... but the down factor

is

> that it is cold here. We have long winters. And that very idea

would

> turn most Nova Romans off.
> You raise a good argument that it could be in some place in Europe
> for financial reasons, however I know that there are probably other
> reasons others would use. One could suggest that it should be, has

to

> be in Italy, because that is where Rome is and was. The same

argument

> when discussion was being raised about where to have the
> international get together.
> No matter what, you are going to get a small percent saying they

want

> it in said location and the rest digging their heels in and

screaming

> NO!!!! And it is not that their reasons, or your reasons are any

more

> or less valid. But rather that is just how people are. No one is
> going to want to move to a place where they don't know the language
> (and that goes for both ways, no matter what country is chosen),

and

> ideally what would be wanted if one was to get a large peice of

land

> like that was to at least have many who are there using the land,
> rather then a peice of land going unused. And on a large peice of
> land of that size, it would be an incredibly waste of money.
>
> My guess would be that it would come to where it would be more
> beneficial. The hard truth is the capitol would probably be in a
> country where there are more citizens. I haven't a clue which has
> more Nova Roman citizens at this time. I don't particularly care.

But

> that would be the logical guess. No matter how much cheaper you can
> get the land, it would do not benefit if there weren't enough
> citizens to make use of it. That would be like saying one should

buy

> land in Greenland because you could get a bunch of land really

really

> cheap.. and exactly how many people are going to make at regular
> trips to Greenland much less live there *lol*
>
> Personally I do not think it matters a great deal which country the
> forum is in. As I am certain that no matter where it is located
> people will still try to get large lands near where they are at.

Rome

> certainly was not the only large city. So I hardly doubt that
> wherever the capital/Forum/Whatever is put that it would be the

only

> sizable chunk a land that will ever be bought in the history of

Nova

> Roma. Those who want land bad enough in their area will go through
> the efforts to raise the money to purchase the land. If one had a
> fundraiser and saved a big chunk of money, and then petitioned the
> senate to buy said peice of land with said money that they raised.

I

> doubt there would be any problems. Right now the fact of the matter
> is there is going to be squabbling over where the first large chunk
> of land is going to be bought. And cost is deifnently not the only
> factor to consider.
>
> Lucia Modia Lupa
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> <dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> > Ave Mr. Dobbins
> >
> > You continue to ignore another fact, in your americanocentric
> view.. the 108
> > acres of land could be bought (if they have to be bought right

now)

> in another
> > country than the US, just like most of any other good and service
> NR might
> > need.
> >
> > Drop the crap about the real world being a hard place where no

one

> gives you
> > nothing for nothing, because that's true, of course, but there

are

> different
> > markets than your own, different prices and different

mentalities,

> even if they
> > are beyond your comprehension.
> >
> > You know what? If you really need 108 acres of land, developable
> and not being a
> > total and unuseful desert, we can start looking in the balkans,

or

> in Poland.
> > I'm sure something reasonable can be found at a lower place than

in

> the US and,
> > thanx to the conversion and different living cost, your tax

dollars

> would be
> > more valuable here there than in the US.
> >
> > Reporting all the financial values and needs to a fixed dollar
> value is, indeed,
> > borderline to xenophobic and shows the total lack of

understanding

> of how an
> > *INTERNATIONAL* organization works.
> >
> >
> > Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> > PF Constantinia
> > Aedilis Urbis
> >
> >
> >
> >

Salvete Omnes,

> I hereby declare my candidacy for the position of
> Curator Araneum.

Quintus Cassius Calvus deserves our gratitude for
stepping forward to fill this position. It will be an
absolute pleasure to cast my vote for him. I'm sure he
will do a fantastic job.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus






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Salvete Omnes,

It is with satisfaction that I see Caius Popillius
Laenas once again offer his services in the name of
Nova Roma. He will prove a most able praetor of our
republic. Fair, cool-headed, mild mannered yet
possessing a confidence required of the role, we will
be extremely well served by his election.

Again, it will be with extreme satisfaction that I
cast my vote for him. I urge you to do the same.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus





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The majority of citizens and tax payers are from the United States.

Here are the states from the Provincia page of the website:

Europe:

Britannia - 115 citizens - 15 tax payers
Gallia - 90 citizens - 10 tax payers
Germania - 76 citizens - 7 tax payers
Hibernia - 7 citizens - 3 tax payers
Hispania/Lusitania - 162 citizens - 25 tax payers
Italia - 247 citizens - 12 tax payers
Pannonia - 33 citizens - 3 tax payers
Sarmatia - 9 citizens - 0 tax payers
Thule - 53 citizens - 11 tax payers
Vendia - 25 citizens - 3 tax payers

TOTAL: 817 total citizens in Europe- 89 total tax payers in Europe

United States/Canada/Mexico:

America Austroccidentalis - 172 citizens - 21 tax payers
America Austrorientalis - 177 citizens - 26 tax payers
America Boreoccidentalis - 67 citizens - 10 tax payers
America Medioccidentalis Superior - 73 citizens - 5 citizens
California - 134 citizens - 25 taxpayers
Canada Occidentalis - 37 citizens - 6 tax payers
Canada Orientalis - 65 citizens - 13 tax payers
Lacus Magni - 178 citizens - 25 tax payers
Mediatlantica - 258 citizens - 39 tax payers
Mexico - 22 citizens - 1 tax payer
Nova Britannia - 105 citizens - 23 tax payers

TOTAL: 1288 total citizens - 194 total tax payers

Argentina: 34 total citizens - 1 tax payer
Brasilia: 83 citizens - 21 tax payers
Australia: 56 citizens - 3 tax payers.

The majority of the citizens are from the United States/Canada/Mexico and by far most of the tax payers are from the same region, the United States, Canada and Mexico.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Samantha
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:01 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why is it that.....


The difficult thing about anything international is that everyone
wants things to be started in their own backyard. And everyone has a
very valid reason that it should be set up where they are at. Those
who are in the US would want it in the US, simply because that is
where we are at. And yes there are places here where one can buy a
large stretch of land, you just may not personally like all the
options available enviroment wise where there is alot of land. Where
I am at, yes there is alot of land for grab... but the down factor is
that it is cold here. We have long winters. And that very idea would
turn most Nova Romans off.
You raise a good argument that it could be in some place in Europe
for financial reasons, however I know that there are probably other
reasons others would use. One could suggest that it should be, has to
be in Italy, because that is where Rome is and was. The same argument
when discussion was being raised about where to have the
international get together.
No matter what, you are going to get a small percent saying they want
it in said location and the rest digging their heels in and screaming
NO!!!! And it is not that their reasons, or your reasons are any more
or less valid. But rather that is just how people are. No one is
going to want to move to a place where they don't know the language
(and that goes for both ways, no matter what country is chosen), and
ideally what would be wanted if one was to get a large peice of land
like that was to at least have many who are there using the land,
rather then a peice of land going unused. And on a large peice of
land of that size, it would be an incredibly waste of money.

My guess would be that it would come to where it would be more
beneficial. The hard truth is the capitol would probably be in a
country where there are more citizens. I haven't a clue which has
more Nova Roman citizens at this time. I don't particularly care. But
that would be the logical guess. No matter how much cheaper you can
get the land, it would do not benefit if there weren't enough
citizens to make use of it. That would be like saying one should buy
land in Greenland because you could get a bunch of land really really
cheap.. and exactly how many people are going to make at regular
trips to Greenland much less live there *lol*

Personally I do not think it matters a great deal which country the
forum is in. As I am certain that no matter where it is located
people will still try to get large lands near where they are at. Rome
certainly was not the only large city. So I hardly doubt that
wherever the capital/Forum/Whatever is put that it would be the only
sizable chunk a land that will ever be bought in the history of Nova
Roma. Those who want land bad enough in their area will go through
the efforts to raise the money to purchase the land. If one had a
fundraiser and saved a big chunk of money, and then petitioned the
senate to buy said peice of land with said money that they raised. I
doubt there would be any problems. Right now the fact of the matter
is there is going to be squabbling over where the first large chunk
of land is going to be bought. And cost is deifnently not the only
factor to consider.

Lucia Modia Lupa


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:
> Ave Mr. Dobbins
>
> You continue to ignore another fact, in your americanocentric
view.. the 108
> acres of land could be bought (if they have to be bought right now)
in another
> country than the US, just like most of any other good and service
NR might
> need.
>
> Drop the crap about the real world being a hard place where no one
gives you
> nothing for nothing, because that's true, of course, but there are
different
> markets than your own, different prices and different mentalities,
even if they
> are beyond your comprehension.
>
> You know what? If you really need 108 acres of land, developable
and not being a
> total and unuseful desert, we can start looking in the balkans, or
in Poland.
> I'm sure something reasonable can be found at a lower place than in
the US and,
> thanx to the conversion and different living cost, your tax dollars
would be
> more valuable here there than in the US.
>
> Reporting all the financial values and needs to a fixed dollar
value is, indeed,
> borderline to xenophobic and shows the total lack of understanding
of how an
> *INTERNATIONAL* organization works.
>
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
>
>
>
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Domiti Constanti

> Ave Mr. Dobbins

Why do you insist on referring to Drusus as Mr.
Dobbins? Political disagreement does not inherently
demand disrespect.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus





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ROFLMAO,

You picked the wrong target in your Anti-American Campaign, something
that you might have realized if you had paid any attention to Nova
Roma over the past 4 years.

Just who do you think it was that got the Language policy changed from
English only? I Did that while you were conteplating your Navel or
whatever you were wasting your time prior to this year.

Who do you think came up with the original concept of indexing via the
CIA figures? I Was posting that as far back as April Three years ago
when a modarate tax was first sugested, while you were off playing
with yourself somewhere.

Who has been trying to get a European account opened so Europeans can
pay taxes in Euros with no exchange costs? I was arguing for that
years ago while you were hiding from Nova Roma.

If you had paid more attention to Nova Roma affairs you could have
avoided making a total fool out of yourself like you just did.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
<dom.con.fus@f...> wrote:

> Ave Mr. Dobbins
>
> You continue to ignore another fact, in your americanocentric view..

the 108

> acres of land could be bought (if they have to be bought right now)

in another

> country than the US, just like most of any other good and service NR

might

> need.
>
> Drop the crap about the real world being a hard place where no one

gives you

> nothing for nothing, because that's true, of course, but there are

different

> markets than your own, different prices and different mentalities,

even if they

> are beyond your comprehension.
>
> You know what? If you really need 108 acres of land, developable and

not being a

> total and unuseful desert, we can start looking in the balkans, or

in Poland.

> I'm sure something reasonable can be found at a lower place than in

the US and,

> thanx to the conversion and different living cost, your tax dollars

would be

> more valuable here there than in the US.
>
> Reporting all the financial values and needs to a fixed dollar value

is, indeed,

> borderline to xenophobic and shows the total lack of understanding

of how an

> *INTERNATIONAL* organization works.
>
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
> PF Constantinia
> Aedilis Urbis
>
>
>
>
> Scrive John Dobbins <drusus@b...>:
>
> > Ave Cato,
> >
> > You continue to ignore one fact, when we venture into the real world
> > the prices people ask for the goods and services that Nova Roma needs
> > won't be based on Ivory Tower Eglatarian idealism. They will be based
> > on market value.
> >
> > Nova Roma can attempt to isolate itself from reality in the world of
> > cyberspace, but it's a lot harder to do in the real world where you
> > have to deal with people who could care less about some ideals viewed
> > through rose colored glasses. The only thing these real world people
> > are going to care about is if we have the money to pay them.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >

When have the anti boni clique ever shown us any respect?

Vale,

Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: Decimus Iunius Silanus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why is it that.....


Salve Domiti Constanti

> Ave Mr. Dobbins

Why do you insist on referring to Drusus as Mr.
Dobbins? Political disagreement does not inherently
demand disrespect.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus





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ADVERTISEMENT





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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/

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