Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Sep 19-25, 2004

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28905 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28906 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28907 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28908 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Divination
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28909 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Ludi Romani: photo quiz ...and the winner is......
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28910 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28911 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28912 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: The Comitia Curiata: It's Makeup
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28913 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28914 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28915 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: After Action Report: Roman Market Day 2004
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28916 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28917 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: The Comitia Curiata: It's Makeup
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28918 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: New Roman List?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28919 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28920 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28921 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Fwd: Pontifeces please
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28922 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28923 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XXIII - Flamem
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28924 From: Mike Abboud Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28925 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28926 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: OT: who were the Hiberni
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28927 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28928 From: Sybil Leek Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Political offices in Pompeii 79ad
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28929 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28930 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28931 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: OT: who were the Hiberni
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28932 From: Sybil Leek Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Eternal Flame?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28933 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: OT: who were the Hiberni
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28934 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28935 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28936 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28937 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28938 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28939 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28940 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Last answer Ludi Romani!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28941 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Final Classification for Ludi Romani
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28942 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28943 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28944 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Request from the Flamen Cerealis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28945 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Request from the Flamen Cerealis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28946 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Request from the Flamen Cerealis to Rutilius Bardulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28947 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Fwd: Pontifeces please
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28948 From: Leah Eddy Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: confusion
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28949 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28950 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28951 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Request from the Flamen Cerealis to Rutilius Bardulus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28952 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28953 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28954 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Getting together in NYC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28955 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28956 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28957 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28958 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: LUDI CIRCENSIS - Semifinals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28959 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28960 From: Q. Salix Cantaber URANICUS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: LUDI CIRCENSIS - Semifinals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28961 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28962 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28963 From: fabruwil Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28964 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28965 From: Flavia Tullia Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: FWD re intermediate Latin course at Academia Thules
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28966 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Divination
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28967 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28968 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28969 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28970 From: fabruwil Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28971 From: Salix Cantaber Uranicus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28972 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28973 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28974 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28975 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28976 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28977 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: New Email Address
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28978 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28979 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Divination
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28980 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28981 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame-A common practice in cultures and faiths
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28982 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Divination
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28983 From: fabruwil Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28984 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Dé comitiís calátís
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28985 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: confusion
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28986 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28987 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dé comitiís calátís
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28988 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28989 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28990 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Comitia Populi Tributa Convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28991 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28992 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28993 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame-A common practice in cultures and faiths
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28994 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: LUDI CIRCENSIS - Semifinals
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28995 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Divination
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28996 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28997 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28998 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28999 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29000 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: FWD re intermediate Latin course at Academia Thules
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29001 From: Marcus Cassius Petreius Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Gmail Addresses
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29002 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29003 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29004 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana (to Brutus)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29005 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29006 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29007 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Welcome new member of Gens Sempronia!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29008 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29009 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29010 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Work keeping me busy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29011 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Massachusetts Pagan Pride Day After Action Review
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29012 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29013 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29014 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29015 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: owls and bulls
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29016 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29017 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29018 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana P.S.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29019 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29020 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Join NR Latin America List
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29021 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: This Day in Ancient History
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29022 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: 1st UPDATE - Comitia Centuriata Convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29023 From: shiarraeltradaik Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Thank you
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29024 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Female Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29025 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29026 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Female Pontifices
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29027 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29028 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29029 From: Susan Davis Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29030 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29031 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29032 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29033 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29034 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29035 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29036 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29037 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Absence
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29038 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29039 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29040 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29041 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29042 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: AF - Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29043 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29044 From: FAC Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29045 From: Andrea Gladia Cyrene Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29046 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: AF - Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29047 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29048 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29049 From: Salix Cantaber Uranicus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29050 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29051 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29052 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29053 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29054 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29055 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29056 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Religio Romana references
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29057 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29058 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29059 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Virus Alert
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29060 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29061 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29062 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29063 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Interview the Expert: Slavery in Ancient Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29064 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29065 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29066 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29067 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29068 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29069 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29070 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29071 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29072 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29073 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Thank you
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29074 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29075 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29076 From: philipp.hanenberg@web.de Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: Nuntii Latini (2)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29077 From: Julia Cybele Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: To Venus Genetrix, on Her festival, 26 September
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29078 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: 1st UPDATE - Comitia Populi Tributa Convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29079 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: 2nd UPDATE - Comitia Centuriata Convened
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29080 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28905 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
I sypathize with Mr Campbell since I apparently have a different opinion on matters and am gang-raped by those whose views differ...I am now an outcast and degenerate because I disagree with those who don't like what I ahve to say...Though I am not leaving....Oh well get over yourselves...Vale, QCB



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28906 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Salve Maior.

None of that was ever at issue. What was being debated was the
original method of selecting pontifexes under the kings and the
early republic; pure co-option or some active involvement of the
people.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Ave;
> I trimmed the post to specifically address the issue of how
> pontifeces were picked and voted on under the Lex Domitia, which
we
> were discussing here. I always include sources and page numbers so
> everyone may read & decide for themselves.
> Now if you look at the chronology on page 196-198 in
Scheid "Roman
> Religion" you will see the evolution of the CP as a stronghold of
the
> patricians to one controlled by the comitia tributa; very
Republican,
> very Roman.
>
> 254-244 BC First Plebian Pontifex Maximus
> Tiberius Coruncanius
> 212 BC From now on, the pontifex maximus is elected
by
> the comitia tributa
> 104 BC The Lex domitiia entrust the election of
priests
> of the four major colleges to the comitia
tributa
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28907 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Salve Maior.

Yes that was ONE of its purposes. It ALSO had functions concerning
religious matters, see my earlier posts and sources on this in the
thread on ius pontificum.

Yes it did decline, a point I noted in that thread, and again the
issue is when did some of its functions migrate to other comitia.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes;
> no more speculation here is the answer found in H.F.
> Jolowicz's "Historical Introduction to the Study of Roman Law"
>
> "Although politically unimportant in republican times, the
> comitia curiata continued to meet for certain purposes connected
> with private law, the making of wills and adrogations,...." a
> footnote
> p.18 explains "Infra ,125 When it met for this purpose the
> assembly was called comitia calata."
>
>
> And p.125.."We know from Gaius that 'int the beginning there were
> two kinds of will, one made in comitiis calatis,.."
> p.125 "The former was made in the comitia curiata, summoned
twice a
> year for the purpose probably under the presidency of the pontifex
> maximus and known as the curiata calata."
> a footnote states "The word was apparently applied to the
comitia
> only when meeting under religious authority; v. Labeo, quoted by
> Gell.xv.27.
>
> optime vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28908 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Divination
In a message dated 9/19/04 6:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

> Please copy to this List a quote from my public writings in which I
> indicated that the Religio Publica should be "modernized"
> or "streamlined", as I have not only no recollection of ever having
> made either statement *regarding the religio*, but indeed have said
> the opposite on many occasions.

Ah that's true. You have been most careful publically.

>
>
> Also, please take the time to refer to us as "Moderati", not "Mods",
> just as we refer to you as "Boni", not "Bones". Simple courtesy.
>

If I was doing a latin inscriptione i'd use MON As for for your so called
comment, I suspect you just thought of it, and that's why you haven't used it
yet.


Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28909 From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Ludi Romani: photo quiz ...and the winner is......
ave Bardule,

> Thank you and your Cohors for this quiz!

me on behalf of my cohors say thank you all for palying the games!

> So there are two winners: D. Constantinus Fuscus, Aedilis Vrbis
> Romae, and me, Aedilis Oppidi Compluti. Two local aediles,
> amazing!
>

wow, is it a sign of the times? create an oppidum, this the way ;-)

vale
M IVL PERVSIANVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28910 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Salve Gnaee Iuli;
I really have no idea what you are talking about. John
Scheid's "Roman Religion" states very plainly on p.200 a chronology

104-103 BC "The Lex Domitia entrusts the election of

priests to the four major colleges to the
comitia tributa."



The comitia calata which met in republican times is another form of
the comitia centuriata. p. 18 Jolowicz

Scheid states plainly it is the comitia tributa that elects the
pontifeces, flamens and augurs.

Perhaps if you get both books it will help you.
John Scheid "Roman Religion"
H.F Jolowicz "Historical Introduction to Roman Law"

bene vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28911 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Salvete Quirites, et salve Arminia Maior,

Maior wrote:
[...] Quoting Scheid:
> The comitia calata which met in republican times is another form of
> the comitia centuriata. p. 18 Jolowicz

While this is true, in as much as the same people made up both comitia,
it's a little misleading. It's akin to saying that the comitia centuriata
is another form of the comitia populi tributa.

The two comitia of earliest times were composed of the patres familias
only. When meeting to bear witness only, they met as the comitia calata.
This would be the case of witnessing the inauguration of an augur, or
a flamen. But when the patres met as the comitia curiata, they were
meeting for the express purpose of giving their approval. For example,
they met to pass the lex imperium that provided the imperium for the
new years consuls after the consuls had been elected. Presumably the
comitia curiata had the authority to withold imperium if they thought
a consul elect unqualified. (It never happened, as far as we know, but
the capability was there.)

> Scheid states plainly it is the comitia tributa that elects the
> pontifeces, flamens and augurs.

Yes, after 104 BCE that is correct.

Vale,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28912 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: The Comitia Curiata: It's Makeup
Salvete Quirites et Peregrini,

All this talk about the Comitia Curiata and Calata has me wondering: How were
the members of these respective comitia chosen? I know that the members of both
were only patres, but would it be all the patres of a given curia, or only a
certain amount of patres, and if this latter is the case, how are those patres
chosen? I haven't researched any of this, so I apologize if there is an obvious
answer out there, but it does make for some interesting speculation if it's
something we don't know.

Valete,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28913 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit

As I have stated in the past, I support woman pontifices. I do do not
support woman flamen, or men vestals.

Men were never vestals, and woman were never flamen. Example, the
priesthood of the Flamen Dialis. The Flamen Dialis was always a man, and his wife was
the Flaminica Dialis, and underwent many of the taboos that her husband did.
Just as the Rex Sacrorum is always a man, and the Regina Sacrorum is always
a woman I believe that the Flamen Dialis is always a man, and the Flaminica
Dialis is always a woman.

The priesthoods of Pontifex, Flamen, Vestal, et al. are not all the same.
They are different types of priesthood, and should not be treated equally. I
oppose woman being Rex Sacrorum, just as much as I oppose men being Regina
Sacrorum.

I stand behind my opinion on Flamen, and Vestals. I do, however, support
woman as Pontifices as that is an administrative priesthood and I feel woman
are just as capable as men (somewhat akin, in my opinion, to senator).

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 9/17/2004 10:32:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lafaustus@... writes:

So, since the women already take care of the gentilic religio in NR,
they can take also the priesthoods of the state and be members of the
Collegium Pontificium as well.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28914 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Comitia calata; its purpose
Salve Maior

The thread with Cordus, I and Marinus is self-explanatory in respect
of the calata.

Vale

Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salve Gnaee Iuli;
> I really have no idea what you are talking about. John
> Scheid's "Roman Religion" states very plainly on p.200 a chronology
>
> 104-103 BC "The Lex Domitia entrusts the election of
>
> priests to the four major colleges to the
> comitia tributa."
>
>
>
> The comitia calata which met in republican times is another form
of
> the comitia centuriata. p. 18 Jolowicz
>
> Scheid states plainly it is the comitia tributa that elects the
> pontifeces, flamens and augurs.
>
> Perhaps if you get both books it will help you.
> John Scheid "Roman Religion"
> H.F Jolowicz "Historical Introduction to Roman Law"
>
> bene vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28915 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: After Action Report: Roman Market Day 2004
Salve,

This year's Roman Market Day can be summed up in two words; "Bad Weather."
The remnants of Hurricane Ivan hit us pretty hard. Saturday was rained out
completely - hard, cold rain all day long, with cold wind. Although the site had
a covered pavilion which would have let *something* of the event continue in
normal circumstances, the cold wind made being on the site at all extremely
uncomfortable. A few folks stayed on site in shifts throughout the day. The
legion reenactors did get to polish some armor, and there was a great pottery
demo by Venetian Cat Pottery (with some serious buying by the Legion folks!).
Some local SCA folks showed up with siege equipment but it was just too nasty
to even set it up and play with it ourselves.

The largest loss was that there were many people that were able to attend
only on Saturday. With events of this sort the 'big' day is the first day - the
second day is usually smaller, and more of a time for the reenactors to
practice drill, and the gladiators to practice combat. We had several Nova Roma
Citizens who showed up on Saturday that couldn't come back on Sunday. The SCA
folks were also only able to attend day one, as well as some vendors. We went
into our "only good day" understrength.

Sunday was dry, but windy and cold. The day didn't top 60 degrees, and there
was still a 25 mph wind with gusts up to 30mph. Some sun, but more clouds as
the day went on. I can't compliment the attending Legions and Gladiators
enough - these folks were true professionals! They set up anyway, wore garb in
the cold, and did their best. The vendors were hardy souls as well, staying on
site even though the wind was rough enough to snap two tents. (Both old and
inexpensive ones of mine, so not much harm done!)

We got about 300 people through gate on Sunday. There are other events that
have that amount of attendees regularly, but this was the lowest turnout yet
for Roman Market Day. Most folks just didn't want to be out in the raw
weather. Public attendees were wearing heavy winter coats and still shivering in
the wind! Happily, many of the attendees were 'hard core' folks who bought well
from the vendors, and enjoyed the Legion and Gladiator presentations
thoroughly.

The event was a bit of a letdown for all, but nobody seemed to have 'gone
away mad.' The public were very pleased with the great presentations, the
vendors sold enough stuff to make the event profitable, and the local Chamber of
Commerce was pleased and surprised with the quality of the "Roman people"
overall. We're invited back!

All in all we got off lightly, considering this same bit of weather had been
previously strong enough to devastate large areas of Florida. It's hard to
complain about a wet day in this case... none of us died or lost our homes. We
didn't even lose the event entirely.

We'll be getting up fresh info at _www.romanmarketday.com_
(http://www.romanmarketday.com) in the next few weeks. There is also a Yahoo group dedicated
to the discussion of Roman Market Day at:
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RomanMarketDays/_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RomanMarketDays/) . (The group didn't get much use this year since it was
created late, but it'll be helpful in coordinating next years event!) If
you'd like to be involved in (or just know about) next year's event, please
subscribe!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28916 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-19
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Ah so I see this all comes down to situational discrimination...I see I've been wrong all along...my God to think I could even suggest or imply what I did...What I find so funny is the farsical justifications cives attempt to come up with for their views and try and paint my enter opinion as being knuckle dragging and an outcast view...vale QCB

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit

As I have stated in the past, I support woman pontifices. I do do not
support woman flamen, or men vestals.

Men were never vestals, and woman were never flamen. Example, the
priesthood of the Flamen Dialis. The Flamen Dialis was always a man, and his wife was
the Flaminica Dialis, and underwent many of the taboos that her husband did.
Just as the Rex Sacrorum is always a man, and the Regina Sacrorum is always
a woman I believe that the Flamen Dialis is always a man, and the Flaminica
Dialis is always a woman.

The priesthoods of Pontifex, Flamen, Vestal, et al. are not all the same.
They are different types of priesthood, and should not be treated equally. I
oppose woman being Rex Sacrorum, just as much as I oppose men being Regina
Sacrorum.

I stand behind my opinion on Flamen, and Vestals. I do, however, support
woman as Pontifices as that is an administrative priesthood and I feel woman
are just as capable as men (somewhat akin, in my opinion, to senator).

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 9/17/2004 10:32:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lafaustus@... writes:

So, since the women already take care of the gentilic religio in NR,
they can take also the priesthoods of the state and be members of the
Collegium Pontificium as well.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28917 From: Bill Gawne Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: The Comitia Curiata: It's Makeup
"Q. Caecilius Metellus" wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites et Peregrini,
>
> All this talk about the Comitia Curiata and Calata has me wondering: How were
> the members of these respective comitia chosen?

See
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Comitia.html

Originally the members were only the patres of the patrician familiae.

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28918 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: New Roman List?
Salvete,

Would open of the 6 moderators of the New Roman list approve my
subscription please? It has been 'wating for approval' from the
moderator since Sept 15. Yet three other people have been approved
since then. Two of my friends were approved within hours even though
I sent in my subscription days before... Odd that.

Valete,
Diana Octavia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28919 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
<I am now an outcast and degenerate because I disagree with <those
<who don't like what I ahve to say...

Et Tu Brutus? :-)

Vale
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28920 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
G. Equitius Cato Q. Cassio Bruto S.P.D.

Salve, Cassius Brutus.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Quintus Cassius Brutus
<quintus_cassius@y...> wrote:
> Ah so I see this all comes down to situational discrimination...I
see I've been wrong all along...my God to think I could even suggest
or imply what I did...What I find so funny is the farsical
justifications cives attempt to come up with for their views and try
and paint my enter opinion as being knuckle dragging and an outcast
view...vale QCB

CATO: Cassius Brutus, instead of this rather self-pitying stance,
could you explain what you think is "situational discrimination"
(and please define that phrase), and why the process by which both I
and Modius Athanasius have described our views of the different
approaches to pontifices vs. priesthoods is "farsical [sic]".

Also, I don't remember anyone "paint[ing your] enter [sic] position"
as being incorrect; I, at least, simply pointed out what I believe
is an error in logic.

The foundation of a proper discussion is not to drop insults or
epithets but to take a position and explain rationally and clearly
why you disagree or disagree with all or any part of it. The
insults and epithets can come later :-)

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28921 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Fwd: Pontifeces please
--- Avete Quirites;
I will repost my respectful question every Monday, waiting for a
scholarly answer or until Nova Roma elections, November 17th,
vox populi vox dei

Salvete Pontifeces;
we are still here waiting for you to answer the cives.... .
>
I would love for our pontifeces to explain why some think women
> should not serve in the Collegium Pontificium: with historical and
> legal answers.
> I supplied some of my own for my positon: that pontifeces were
> magistrates, not a cultus that was sex-segregated such as Bona Dea
or
> Hercules, that it was not limited to sex in Roma Antiqua as Vestals
> were on the CP.
> You absolutely can have a reasonable and calm debate, without
> words such as 'bigotted' or 'sexist'. I am an attorney I have
> particpated in many and I am a firm respector of those with
differing
> opinions.
> So I and many others think this is an extremely worthwhile
> discussion, after all the pontifeces are responsible for the
Religio
> & its rituals and teaching the cives; and the pontifeces's power
> derives from the people.
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>
>
> > >
--- End forwarded message ---
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28922 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve,

Well, the flaminem share the religious functions of the ancient king,
that is why Numa created the flaminens. Since there was a counter-
part as flaminem wife... but if I recall, the wife of the flaminem of
Iove was flaminem of Iuno.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit
>
> As I have stated in the past, I support woman pontifices. I do do
not
> support woman flamen, or men vestals.
>
> Men were never vestals, and woman were never flamen. Example, the
> priesthood of the Flamen Dialis. The Flamen Dialis was always a
man, and his wife was
> the Flaminica Dialis, and underwent many of the taboos that her
husband did.
> Just as the Rex Sacrorum is always a man, and the Regina Sacrorum
is always
> a woman I believe that the Flamen Dialis is always a man, and the
Flaminica
> Dialis is always a woman.
>
> The priesthoods of Pontifex, Flamen, Vestal, et al. are not all
the same.
> They are different types of priesthood, and should not be treated
equally. I
> oppose woman being Rex Sacrorum, just as much as I oppose men
being Regina
> Sacrorum.
>
> I stand behind my opinion on Flamen, and Vestals. I do, however,
support
> woman as Pontifices as that is an administrative priesthood and I
feel woman
> are just as capable as men (somewhat akin, in my opinion, to
senator).
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2004 10:32:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> lafaustus@y... writes:
>
> So, since the women already take care of the gentilic religio in
NR,
> they can take also the priesthoods of the state and be members of
the
> Collegium Pontificium as well.
>
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28923 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Articles on Roman Government - XXIII - Flamem
This text is provided here with cultural and educational purposes
only. The text is copyright of its owner. I am not the author of the
proceeding document, it has been presented for Educational purposes
and all known Authors have been given due and proper credit.


Flamen

(from flare, one who blows or kindles the sacrificial fire; or from
the root of flagro, to burn). The special priest of a special deity
among the Romans ( De Leg. ii. 8). There were fifteen flamines--three
higher ones (flamines maiores) of patrician rank: these were the
flamen Dialis (of Iupiter), Martialis (of Mars), and Quirinalis (of
Quirinus). The remaining twelve were flamines minores, plebeians, and
attached to less important deities, as Vulcanus, Flora, Pomona, and
Carmenta. Their office was for life, and they could be deprived of it
only in certain cases. The emblem of their dignity was a white
conical hat (apex) made out of the hide of a sacrificed animal, and
having an olive branch and woollen thread at the top. This the
flamines were obliged to wear always out of doors--indeed, the flamen
Dialis had originally to wear it indoors as well. They were exempted
from all the duties of civic life, and excluded at the same time from
all participation in politics. In course of time they were allowed to
hold urban offices, but even then they were forbidden to go out of
Italy.

The flamen Dialis was originally not allowed to spend a night away
from home; in later times, under the Empire, the pontifex could allow
him to sleep out for two nights in the year. Indeed, the flamen
Dialis, whose superior position among the flamens conferred upon him
certain privileges, as the toga praetexta, the sella curulis, a seat
in the Senate, and the services of a lictor, was in proportion
obliged to submit to more restrictions than the rest. He, his wife,
their children, and his house on the Palatine were dedicated to this
god. He must be born of a marriage celebrated by confarreatio, and
live himself in indissoluble marriage. If his wife died, he resigned
his office. In the performance of his sacred functions he was
assisted by his children as camilli. (See Camillus.) Every day was
for him a holy day, so that he never appeared without the insignia of
his office, the conical hat, the thick woollen toga praetexta woven
by his wife, the sacrificial knife, and a rod to keep the people away
from him. He was preceded by his lictor, and by heralds who called on
the people to stop their work, as the flamen was not permitted to
look upon any labour. He was not allowed to set eyes on an armed
host; to mount, or even to touch, a horse; to touch a corpse, or
grave, or a goat, or a dog, or raw meat, or anything unclean. He must
not have near him or behold anything in the shape of a chain;
consequently there must be no knots, but only clasps, on his raiment;
the ring on his finger was broken, and any one who came into his
house with chains must instantly be loosened. If he were guilty of
any carelessness in the sacrifices, or if his hat fell from his head,
he had to resign. His wife, the flaminica, was priestess of Iuno. She
had, in like manner, to appear always in her insignia of office--a
long woollen robe, with her hair woven with a purple fillet (tutulum)
and arranged in pyramidal form, her head covered with a veil and a
kerchief, and carrying a sacrificial knife. On certain days she was
forbidden to comb her hair. The chief business of the flamines
consisted in daily sacrifices; on certain special occasions they
acted with the pontifices and the Vestal Virgins. The three superior
flamines offered a sacrifice to Fides Publica at the Capitol on the
Kalends of October, driving there in a two-horse chariot. During the
imperial period flamines of the deified emperors were added to the
others.

This text is based on the following book(s):

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New
York. Harper and Brothers. 1898.









Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28924 From: Mike Abboud Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve



Hardly situational discrimination, it's historically accurate what more
needs to be said. Sarcasm doesn't help your case, if you want to argue
differently then provide some historical support for your position and argue
from there.



Vale

Tiberius Arcanus Agricola

mikeabboud@...



_____

From: Quintus Cassius Brutus [mailto:quintus_cassius@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:55 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Women in the Religio Romana



Ah so I see this all comes down to situational discrimination...I see I've
been wrong all along...my God to think I could even suggest or imply what I
did...What I find so funny is the farsical justifications cives attempt to
come up with for their views and try and paint my enter opinion as being
knuckle dragging and an outcast view...vale QCB

AthanasiosofSpfd@... wrote:
Gaius Modius Athanasius L. Arminio Fausto salutem dicit

As I have stated in the past, I support woman pontifices. I do do not
support woman flamen, or men vestals.

Men were never vestals, and woman were never flamen. Example, the
priesthood of the Flamen Dialis. The Flamen Dialis was always a man, and
his wife was
the Flaminica Dialis, and underwent many of the taboos that her husband
did.
Just as the Rex Sacrorum is always a man, and the Regina Sacrorum is always

a woman I believe that the Flamen Dialis is always a man, and the Flaminica

Dialis is always a woman.

The priesthoods of Pontifex, Flamen, Vestal, et al. are not all the same.
They are different types of priesthood, and should not be treated equally.
I
oppose woman being Rex Sacrorum, just as much as I oppose men being Regina
Sacrorum.

I stand behind my opinion on Flamen, and Vestals. I do, however, support
woman as Pontifices as that is an administrative priesthood and I feel
woman
are just as capable as men (somewhat akin, in my opinion, to senator).

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 9/17/2004 10:32:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lafaustus@... writes:

So, since the women already take care of the gentilic religio in NR,
they can take also the priesthoods of the state and be members of the
Collegium Pontificium as well.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28925 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Salva Diana ~

Are you seriously lamenting restrictions against disrespecting the
Gods? What a peculiar position for a Sacerdos to take!

Other than that we have full freedom to express our ideas, so this is
apparently what you are referring to.

A Priestess who appears to feel we should be able to disrespect the
Gods in an organization meant to restore Their worship! How... Odd.

Vale
~ Troianus


On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 04:43 AM, Diana Octavia wrote:

> Salve Matt,
>
> < ie, speech deemed in some
>> way dangerous to the well-being of the state or
>> disrespectful of the state religion could be checked
>> by force of some kind. >
>
> We haven't had freedom of speech in Nova Roma for the entire year.
> Although this disgusts me, I am
> waiting for the wheel to turn once again where NR is a fun place to be
> like it used to be for so
> many years.
>
> Vale,
> Diana Octavia
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28926 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: OT: who were the Hiberni
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

According to Gaelic tradition, there were a number of waves of invasions of
Ireland beginning with the Sons of Nemed and going through the various blood
relations of Nemed until you had the Fomorians, the FirBolg, and the Tuatha de
Danaan. The last invasion mentioned in the epics were the Sons of Milesius
that supposedly came from Hispania and drove the Tuatha de Danaan into the
Underworld or Tir Na Og. As such, modern science is now agreeing with ancient epics
and legends according to this recent threat.

Describing the modern Irish as not being Celts is much like saying that the
modern French are not Celts. It is both true and not true. There is no
question that Ireland is a Celtic country with Gaelige being descended from the Q
Goidelic language that is part of the Indo-European language tree. However, the
modern Irish are descended from the Celts, Norse and Danish Vikings, the
Manx, Hebrideans, Normans, Welsh, Italians, Saxons, French, and the English.
There are likely to have been some minor infusions Spanish, Romano-British, and
Continental Celts over the last 3,000 years.

Also, Genetics is not an exact science and the most important point is that
whether Irish, Roman, or American, we are all homo sapiens sapiens and that
truth hasn't changed in the last 20,000 years.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28927 From: Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Salve Caesar ~

The relevance lay in the fact that most of our Institutions are based
on the Middle to Late Republic, where Law is publicly published and the
Voice of the People had legal force.

Therefore the basis and roots of the Lex Domitia are very relevant; it
establishes the legitimacy of the legal concept and shows it was not
merely a politically motivated "innovation" as some have suggested.

Vale
~ Troianus
On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 02:28 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:

> Salve Maior.
>
> None of that was ever at issue. What was being debated was the
> original method of selecting pontifexes under the kings and the
> early republic; pure co-option or some active involvement of the
> people.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>> Ave;
>> I trimmed the post to specifically address the issue of how
>> pontifeces were picked and voted on under the Lex Domitia, which
> we
>> were discussing here. I always include sources and page numbers so
>> everyone may read & decide for themselves.
>> Now if you look at the chronology on page 196-198 in
> Scheid "Roman
>> Religion" you will see the evolution of the CP as a stronghold of
> the
>> patricians to one controlled by the comitia tributa; very
> Republican,
>> very Roman.
>>
>> 254-244 BC First Plebian Pontifex Maximus
>> Tiberius Coruncanius
>> 212 BC From now on, the pontifex maximus is elected
> by
>> the comitia tributa
>> 104 BC The Lex domitiia entrust the election of
> priests
>> of the four major colleges to the comitia
> tributa
>>
>> vale
>> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>> propraetrix Hiberniae
>> scriba Iuris et
>> Investigatio CFQ
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28928 From: Sybil Leek Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Political offices in Pompeii 79ad
Salvete Omnes,

I know that what I am looking for in my research about Pompeii is rather
specific, however I was wondering if any of you may know of a book I could
refer to for it. I have been researching the history of Pompeii prior to,
and at the time of, the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 a.d. Currently, I am
trying to find out what was politically going on in the city and who the
various people were in office at the time of the eruption.

So far, I have found who was up for election for the office of Aedilis, but
not who was currently in the office. I am also looking for who the Duumviri
ad Aedem Faciendam (two man board in charge of temple construction) was, and
Duumviri Juri Dicundo (colonial magistrates/judges) were. I am trying to
get an idea of which offices were in use in Pompeii and what kinds of
politics were going on in the city on a daily basis. For now I would even
settle for just understanding the offices better even if I can�t find such
material for Pompeii specifically. Any help at pointing me to a book in the
right direction would be greatly appreciated.

Gratis,
Prima Ritulia Nocta

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28929 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Salve Troianus.

The discussion on the thread concerned the roots of the process, in
the time of the kings and the early republic. The significance of
that is to determine what the process was from the time of the kings
to the Lex Domitia, which is a far greater sweep that from the Lex
Domitia to the point where appointments passed de facto and
eventually formally under the controller of the emperors. It is
important to determine what the process was for the majority of the
republic, rather than for a small blip at the end.

We haven't even got to the stage (on the thread) of discussing the
Lex Domitia, except in passing.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus
<hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:
> Salve Caesar ~
>
> The relevance lay in the fact that most of our Institutions are
based
> on the Middle to Late Republic, where Law is publicly published and
the
> Voice of the People had legal force.
>
> Therefore the basis and roots of the Lex Domitia are very relevant;
it
> establishes the legitimacy of the legal concept and shows it was
not
> merely a politically motivated "innovation" as some have suggested.
>
> Vale
> ~ Troianus
> On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 02:28 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
wrote:
>
> > Salve Maior.
> >
> > None of that was ever at issue. What was being debated was the
> > original method of selecting pontifexes under the kings and the
> > early republic; pure co-option or some active involvement of the
> > people.
> >
> > Vale
> > Caesar
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> >> Ave;
> >> I trimmed the post to specifically address the issue of how
> >> pontifeces were picked and voted on under the Lex Domitia, which
> > we
> >> were discussing here. I always include sources and page numbers
so
> >> everyone may read & decide for themselves.
> >> Now if you look at the chronology on page 196-198 in
> > Scheid "Roman
> >> Religion" you will see the evolution of the CP as a stronghold of
> > the
> >> patricians to one controlled by the comitia tributa; very
> > Republican,
> >> very Roman.
> >>
> >> 254-244 BC First Plebian Pontifex Maximus
> >> Tiberius Coruncanius
> >> 212 BC From now on, the pontifex maximus is elected
> > by
> >> the comitia tributa
> >> 104 BC The Lex domitiia entrust the election of
> > priests
> >> of the four major colleges to the comitia
> > tributa
> >>
> >> vale
> >> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> >> propraetrix Hiberniae
> >> scriba Iuris et
> >> Investigatio CFQ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28930 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Fwd: Re: De lege Domitia
Salve,

Well...

"It is > important to determine what the process was for the majority
of the > republic, rather than for a small blip at the end."

Well...
Most of the changes we see on roman republic turned fast with time
passing. The Gentilic Religio lead the indo-european societies for
thousand years with their mos until the continuous breaking by the
evolution of the society. We had all pristhoods on the king, until
Numa creates the flamines. So we had kings as keepers of the
Imperium, after magistrates. We had only the paterfamilias voting,
until king Servius created the Comitia Centuriata. We hadn´t division
of property between the brothers until the Twelve Tables. We hadn´t
marriage between the orders, because of the mixing of the private
auspices, until Lex Canuleia. We hadn´t plebeians consules due to the
absence of private auspices, until Lex Licinia. We hadn´t censores
and praetores, until these powers be stripped from the consulship for
best administration. We hadn´t consules enduring on Imperium after
the ending of their term, until the creation of the proconsules with
the wars far away Rome. We hadn´t an army on winter, until the siege
of Veii. We hadn´t popular choice on pontificates, until Lex Domitia.
We hadn´t Ludi Appolinaries, until the needs and votes of the Second
Punic War... and so goes on...

So, the evolution and necessity of the roman republic created all
changes for the benefit and growing of Rome... and the roman republic
continued to change. Problably it is ouw own prejudice that fails to
recognize that even the Principate and Dominate were evolutions, to
better administration of the even far Roman Empire.


Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebs



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Troianus.
>
> The discussion on the thread concerned the roots of the process, in
> the time of the kings and the early republic. The significance of
> that is to determine what the process was from the time of the
kings
> to the Lex Domitia, which is a far greater sweep that from the Lex
> Domitia to the point where appointments passed de facto and
> eventually formally under the controller of the emperors. It is
> important to determine what the process was for the majority of the
> republic, rather than for a small blip at the end.
>
> We haven't even got to the stage (on the thread) of discussing the
> Lex Domitia, except in passing.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
Troianus
> <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:
> > Salve Caesar ~
> >
> > The relevance lay in the fact that most of our Institutions are
> based
> > on the Middle to Late Republic, where Law is publicly published
and
> the
> > Voice of the People had legal force.
> >
> > Therefore the basis and roots of the Lex Domitia are very
relevant;
> it
> > establishes the legitimacy of the legal concept and shows it was
> not
> > merely a politically motivated "innovation" as some have
suggested.
> >
> > Vale
> > ~ Troianus
> > On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 02:28 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
> wrote:
> >
> > > Salve Maior.
> > >
> > > None of that was ever at issue. What was being debated was the
> > > original method of selecting pontifexes under the kings and the
> > > early republic; pure co-option or some active involvement of the
> > > people.
> > >
> > > Vale
> > > Caesar
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > >> Ave;
> > >> I trimmed the post to specifically address the issue of how
> > >> pontifeces were picked and voted on under the Lex Domitia,
which
> > > we
> > >> were discussing here. I always include sources and page
numbers
> so
> > >> everyone may read & decide for themselves.
> > >> Now if you look at the chronology on page 196-198 in
> > > Scheid "Roman
> > >> Religion" you will see the evolution of the CP as a stronghold
of
> > > the
> > >> patricians to one controlled by the comitia tributa; very
> > > Republican,
> > >> very Roman.
> > >>
> > >> 254-244 BC First Plebian Pontifex Maximus
> > >> Tiberius Coruncanius
> > >> 212 BC From now on, the pontifex maximus is
elected
> > > by
> > >> the comitia tributa
> > >> 104 BC The Lex domitiia entrust the election of
> > > priests
> > >> of the four major colleges to the comitia
> > > tributa
> > >>
> > >> vale
> > >> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> > >> propraetrix Hiberniae
> > >> scriba Iuris et
> > >> Investigatio CFQ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28931 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: OT: who were the Hiberni
> F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> According to Gaelic tradition, there were a number of
> waves of invasions of Ireland beginning with the Sons of
> Nemed and going through the various blood relations of
> Nemed until you had the Fomorians, the FirBolg, and the
> Tuatha de Danaan.
^^^^^^

On which point has anybody any comments on the similarity to
Dana(w)os whose 50 sons & daughters split the Golden Fleece
founding Thebes and Kolkhis between them from Libya? (Hence
giving a poetic name for all Greeks: Timeo Danaos et dona
ferentes)I'm not certain that I have all the names & places
correct but there does sound a suggestion of some North
African migration to Greece, Georgia and Ireland. Even more
eyebrow-raising, Herodotos confirmed the tale by claiming
that "Not just because the men of Kolkhis have dark skin and
frizzy hair, *since you can find men like that throughout
Civilisation*, but they practise circumcision, a
specifically Egyptian perversion". Negroes *throughout
Civilisation* ! So where did they go to be found later only
south of the Sahara - and why? On similar subject, surely
more than a coincidental resemblence between Barbaros and
Berber?

Caesariensis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28932 From: Sybil Leek Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Eternal Flame?
Salvete Omnes,

Odd question do we have a continually burning flame to Vesta for our New
Roman state?
Or a state oriented Lararium for Nova Roma?

Ave,
Prima Ritulia Nocta


Maior wrote:

. . . Considering how crucial the flame they tended was to Rome's
well-being I can see where they would be included in the highest honours,
remember it was a disaster if it went out. . . .

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28933 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: OT: who were the Hiberni
Salve;
I don't know where you get your information from, but the Irish,
Welsh and Scots are genetically related to Basques and Galicians.
There is very little variety here in Hibernia, excepting current
immigration. The other tiny strands are French Norman and
Scandinavian.
The Irish are not Celts in the commonly Romantic form as people
think; the best way to think of them is Celto-Iberians
As for language, absolutely the Irish and other 'celtic' peoples
speak a common tongue, they are linguistically similar.

As for genetics not being an exact science....You can go ahead and
read the article in the Journal of American Genetics.
Our friends in Hispania have understood this fact for quite some
time.
vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ



that the
> modern French are not Celts. It is both true and not true. There
is no
> question that Ireland is a Celtic country with Gaelige being
descended from the Q
> Goidelic language that is part of the Indo-European language tree.
However, the
> modern Irish are descended from the Celts, Norse and Danish
Vikings, the
> Manx, Hebrideans, Normans, Welsh, Italians, Saxons, French, and the
English.
> There are likely to have been some minor infusions Spanish, Romano-
British, and
> Continental Celts over the last 3,000 years.
>
> Also, Genetics is not an exact science and the most important point
is that
> whether Irish, Roman, or American, we are all homo sapiens sapiens
and that
> truth hasn't changed in the last 20,000 years.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28934 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve,

Since I've received a number of responses regarding my comments I will allow clarification and further explanation of them. So here it is:

After making my statement that women should not be pontifices fellow cives proceeded to refute those marks. However there word choice clearly makes the opinion of my statement amount to "discrimination", "subjugation", "patriarchal", "inclusive(ness)" and as a result portrays my comments as being nothing more than a cave man style mentality of women are second class and are below man etc, etc. What I suggested is hardly any of the above quoted words. It is historically accurate. It also in no way would threaten Nova Roma's status as a NPO (which I addressed in another post). But you yourselves have stated that you are quite ready to discriminate. In one example and I quote Gaius Modius Athanasius on this, and he states:

"I support woman pontifices. I do do not support woman flamen, or men vestals...Men were never vestals, and woman were never flamen...The priesthoods of Pontifex, Flamen, Vestal, et al. are not all the same. They are different types of priesthood, and should not be treated equally...I do, however, support woman as Pontifices as that is an administrative priesthood and I feel woman are just as capable as men."

This is what I refer to as "situational discrimination." You are quite willing to discriminate based on the position in question. It is made clear that because men were not Vestals, and women were not Flamen that historically speaking that is perfectly acceptable to maintain the status quo. However, were there ever female pontifices? We wouldn't want to stray from historically accuracy would we. But yes we can. Why because the position is summarized in a whole two words as an "administrative priesthood." So you are willing to stray from historical accuarcy to fill more religious roles with women. But if it anyway would work against them it is met with a resounding no. They is rather hypocritical. But hey I think my position can be stated using Tiberius Arcanus Agricola's own words of "hardly situational discrimination, it's historically accurate what more needs to be said." Couldn't have said it better myself. But to answer your statemtn regarding me providing
historical information well I have. I did so when I made a post regarding the roles available to women within the Religio Romana. Yet I got a flurry of replies trumping what I said up to "discrimination", "subjugation", etc. Why the two way street? Cato, I have met your standards for a "proper discussion" but when I was gone after by everyone who wishes to stray from historical accuracy I gave my return salvo. But Troianus when asking the question of "what discrimination" I suggest you look over the posts regarding this issue and read the posts where the word "discrimination" and "subjugation" were employed.

The reality is sticking to historical accuracy is in no way discrimination nor subjugation. It neither violates the letter of the law nor threatens Nova Roma's status as a NPO. I made clear what the historical role of women was in the Religio. They did indeed have a role in the Religio. But to assume sticking to historical accuracy would in someway short change them is naive. What this amounts to is people introducing modern concepts into the order of the Religio and diluting and it and as a consequence disrespecting it and the gods worshipped by followers of the Religio. Has NOW entered Nova Roma with yet another political agenda? The reality is your diluting requires justification mine does not. Mine simply sticks to historical accuracy of the Religio since that seems to be one of the major focuses of Nova Roma therefore historical acuracy should be preserved. Historical accuracy requires no justification when it violates no law. There is no law being violated by
remaining true to the Religio as it was in regards to positions and who held them. Your ideas require justification because they are modern ideas and need justification for making alterations. Yet when one really examines and critiques them they will see they hold no water.

vale, QCB


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28935 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: De comitia calata
A. Apollonius Cordus omnibus sal.

I haven't had time to look at today's main-list
messages in detail yet, though I have read those which
mention the comitia calata in their subject-lines;
forgive me if I duplicate something already written.

Today I've been in the Sackler Library in Oxford
looking for something substantial concerning the
comitia calata, and I think I've found a few things we
didn't know before, though nothing which settled the
whole issue, I'm afraid.

For one thing, we have to be absolutely clear that
almost everything that anyone has said today about the
comitia calata is very, very uncertain. The positive
and unambiguous evidence about the comitia calata is
virtually nil, and almost everything we read in modern
books about it is conjecture, some more plausible and
some less. So we can't accept something simply because
we've found one modern book that says it. We have to
accept the most commonly accepted interpretation or
else go back to the primary sources and make our own.

It's not even easy to work out what the most commonly
accepted modern interpretation is. In support of
Caesar's theory that the term comitia calata could be
applied to assemblies which met by centuria as well as
to those which met by curia, I've found one book:
Botsford, G.W., 'The Roman Assemblies From Their
Origins To The End Of The Republic' (Macmillan, 1909).
Now, 1909 is not very up-to-date; in its favour,
though, is the fact that it continues to be listed in
the bibliographies of more current books like
Lintott's 'Constitution of the Roman Republic'.

Botsford (the relevant pages are 153-6) does not
confirm Caesar's suggestion that the comitia calata
curiata always voted and the comitia calata centuriata
never voted. He mentiones several matters which the
comitia calata curiata simply witnessed. Indeed, he
confirms that the only piece of primary evidence for
the existence of any comitia calata other than the
comitia curiata is Labeo, in Gell. xv.27.2, which
Caesar has already cited.

Botsford can only find one possible purpose for which
this comitia calata centuriata can have met: the
inauguration of the flamen Martialis. His suggestion
that this inauguration was witnessed by the comitia
centuriata rather than the usual curiata is not based
on any positive evidence, but merely on the fact that
Mars was a war-like god and it would therefore have
been appropriate for his flamen to be inaugurated
before a war-like assembly, i.e. the centuriata.

Now, I'm quite strongly inclined to suggest that if we
have only one piece of primary evidence for the
existence of the comitia calata centuriata, and if the
only plausible function we can find for it is the
inauguration of a single flamen, it might be more
sensible simply to regard the relevant sentence of
Labeo as incorrect or textually corrupt. But even if
we accept that the comitia centuriata could be called
as a comitia calata, and if we further accept
Botsford's suggestion for its function, we are a long
way from proving that the comitia centuriata calata
*never* voted, or that the comitia centuriata calata
was the assembly which was involved in the creation of
pontifices, or that the assembly which was involved in
the creation of the pontifices did not vote. We are,
on the contrary, still left with the undisputed fact
that many incarnations of the comitia calata *did*
vote (see, for instance, Watson, 'Law Making In The
Later Roman Republic' (Oxford University Press, 1974),
p. 19 with footnotes), though certainly not all.

The passages Arminia Maior has quoted from Scheid are
certainly thought-provoking, but without any
references to primary sources they're rather hard to
follow up. I'll see whether I can find the French
edition in the library tomorrow. For today all I can
say is that the role of the comitia calata in the
making of pontifices is still extremely obscure to me
and suggests no useful conclusions either way
regarding the lex Domitia.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28936 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
A. Apollonius Cordus omnibus sal.

I've just found a French copy of Scheid. It has no
footnotes. Back to square one, unless anyone can find
any independent evidence for Schied's proposition that
the election of pontifex maximus was transferred to
the comitia tributa as early as 212.

Incidentally, Jolowicz & Nicholas have nothing to tell
us about the comitia calata that we haven't already
discussed.

If I can't find anything tomorrow, and if no one has
found anything by then, I'll drop my old tutor a line
and see whether she can suggest anything.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28937 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana amico A. Apollonio Coro sal.
No footnotes! I am shocked...
check the back is there legal reference books? Also try Wolfgang
Kunkel another expert in Roman Law.
hmm maybe I'll write to M.Marcius Rex the law professor. I find it
odd that Scheid would make a statement that wasn't true and not
flayed publically, Mary Beard had to pull out her article on Vestal
Virgins as she fell afoul of the Roman law specialists.
vale
Maior


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus omnibus sal.
>
> I've just found a French copy of Scheid. It has no
> footnotes. Back to square one, unless anyone can find
> any independent evidence for Schied's proposition that
> the election of pontifex maximus was transferred to
> the comitia tributa as early as 212.
>
> Incidentally, Jolowicz & Nicholas have nothing to tell
> us about the comitia calata that we haven't already
> discussed.
>
> If I can't find anything tomorrow, and if no one has
> found anything by then, I'll drop my old tutor a line
> and see whether she can suggest anything.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28938 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Sorry to post a personal note on the ML but Corde since you're at
the library, I've read a review of Scheid's book he is a Professor at
the College de France and the authority,

try Jorg Rupke " Die Religio der Romer" 2001

he is the other authority

Maior
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28939 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Salve Corde.

Thank you for the update, as I know you are often pressed for time.
This has proved to be a very interesting thread.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus omnibus sal.
>
> I haven't had time to look at today's main-list
> messages in detail yet, though I have read those which
>.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28940 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Last answer Ludi Romani!
AVETE ROMANI

Last question and the relative answer for the cultural contest of
Ludi Romani:

- "Apollus Veii" statue has been recently restored and presented at
Museo Nazionale Etrusco in Villa Giulia, Roma. Where was it when
discovered in 1916? In what conditions? As for Vitruvius, which was
the importance of the building that hosted it in ancient times?

The statue of Apollus Veii was discovered in 1916 during the
excavations of the sanctuary dedicated to Minerva and located near
one of the doors of the ancient city of Veius. It was found in about
30 fragments. For Vitruvius the importance of the buildings was that
in 510 b.C. inside the temple of Minerva was built a temple
dedicated to Apollus: this was the first temple built
with "Tuscanicus" style.

VALETE!
L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28941 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Final Classification for Ludi Romani
AVETE CIVES ROMANI

And now... the final classification!

Honour and glory to Livia Iulia Drusilla! Honour and glory to Gens
Iulia!

Many compliments to all the participants, mostly for those that made
me sweat a lot for the publication of the most difficoult questions
I could invent!
I had fun and learnt a lot in preparing the questions, I hope that
you too have had a good time and improved your roman knowledge.
Thank you.


Final classification:

17 pts:
Liv Iulia Drusilla

16 pts:
Gn Equitius Marinus
Dom Constantinus Fuscus
Min Iordannes Pompeianus

15 pts:
H Rutilius Bardulus

13 pts:
Pub Constantinus Placidus
M Iulius Aurelianus

10 pts:
Q Salix Cantaber Uranicus
Q Cassius Brutus

9 pts:
P Minius Albucius

2 pts:
P Constantinus Vetranio
G Equitius Cato

VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28942 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Ave;
the end of this whole discussion is that Cordus is trying to find
John Scheid's source for the election process of the Lex Domitia.
Since Scheid is the expert on the Religio Romana and professor at
the College de France, his opinion prevails over yours or Cordus's.

What boggles my mind is that neither of you have read his book
before you presumed to discuss this matter. That is poor scholarship.
Smythe's dictionary from 1897 is not a proper source.

vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28943 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: De comitia calata
Salve Maior.

Who are you talking to/about??

While we are on the subject of the dictionary that you disparage, I
would point out that it is a source used (and admired) frequently by
Consul Marinus - amongst others - and that age does not necessarily
mean useless, which as you advance in years is a fact you will no
doubt appreciate more and more. Using a common source also provided a
common frame of reference.

I might add - again - that the Lex Domitia has nothing to do with
what Marinus, I and Cordus were discussing, which I will repeat
again, was the process in place during the reign of the kings and the
early republic.

What boggles my mind is that I have had to say to you more than once
that you are talking about the Lex Domitia while the rest of us were
discussing issues far, far earlier than that.

What is poor scholarship is jumping into threads with apparently only
the vaguest idea of what has been discussed, a discussion moreover
that had proceeded at quite a nice pace and tone until you
interjected.

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Ave;
> the end of this whole discussion is that Cordus is trying to
find
> John Scheid's source for the election process of the Lex Domitia.
> Since Scheid is the expert on the Religio Romana and professor at
> the College de France, his opinion prevails over yours or Cordus's.
>
> What boggles my mind is that neither of you have read his book
> before you presumed to discuss this matter. That is poor
scholarship.
> Smythe's dictionary from 1897 is not a proper source.
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28944 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Request from the Flamen Cerealis
F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I appeal to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for help. I seek all
information; poetry, songs, carmina, rituals (including current works
and reconstructions), and other historical data on the Cult of the
Goddess Ceres, the God Liber, the Goddess Libera, and the Aventine
Triad.

I currently have information from Spaeth THE ROMAN GODDESS CERES,
Beard & North RELIGIONS OF ROME, Ferguson ROMAN RELIGION, Duzemil
ARCHAIC ROMAN RELIGION, and Scheid. I also have Varro, Cato,
Valerius Maximus, Cicero, and Ovid (Fasti). I am especially looking
for an English translation of Bonnaire's work on the Roman Goddess
Ceres.

No one person, regardless of their background or training, can hope
to find everything on the Net or in print on the Cult of Ceres,
Liber, and Libera. So I appeal to all Nova Romans and others who
follow the Religio the contribute whatever you can to the restoration
of the worship of Ceres and the Aventine Triad. Many of the
principal festivals of Rome and the Religio are tied to Ceres, Liber,
Libera, Tellus, and Ops.

I especially appeal to all of the Plebs for contributions since the
Cult of the Aventine Triad and Ceres is the official cult of the
Plebeian Order. The sanctitas of the Tribunes and the Plebeian
Aediles is derived from the Temple of Ceres and, in ancient Rome, the
Plebs gave their oath to defend the Tribunes by force from violation
or violence by the Patricians.

Please email me either privately or publicly with your
contributions. May the Goddess bless and keep you and grant you all
bountiful harvests.

Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28945 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Request from the Flamen Cerealis
Ave;
Rutilius Bardulus from Complutum used to be the Flamen Cerealis,
why not confer with him ?
vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen" <Patrick.Owen@s...>
wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
>
> I appeal to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for help. I seek
all
> information; poetry, songs, carmina, rituals (including current
works
> and reconstructions), and other historical data on the Cult of the
> Goddess Ceres, the God Liber, the Goddess Libera, and the Aventine
> Triad.
>
> I currently have information from Spaeth THE ROMAN GODDESS CERES,
> Beard & North RELIGIONS OF ROME, Ferguson ROMAN RELIGION, Duzemil
> ARCHAIC ROMAN RELIGION, and Scheid. I also have Varro, Cato,
> Valerius Maximus, Cicero, and Ovid (Fasti). I am especially
looking
> for an English translation of Bonnaire's work on the Roman Goddess
> Ceres.
>
> No one person, regardless of their background or training, can hope
> to find everything on the Net or in print on the Cult of Ceres,
> Liber, and Libera. So I appeal to all Nova Romans and others who
> follow the Religio the contribute whatever you can to the
restoration
> of the worship of Ceres and the Aventine Triad. Many of the
> principal festivals of Rome and the Religio are tied to Ceres,
Liber,
> Libera, Tellus, and Ops.
>
> I especially appeal to all of the Plebs for contributions since the
> Cult of the Aventine Triad and Ceres is the official cult of the
> Plebeian Order. The sanctitas of the Tribunes and the Plebeian
> Aediles is derived from the Temple of Ceres and, in ancient Rome,
the
> Plebs gave their oath to defend the Tribunes by force from
violation
> or violence by the Patricians.
>
> Please email me either privately or publicly with your
> contributions. May the Goddess bless and keep you and grant you
all
> bountiful harvests.
>
> Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28946 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Request from the Flamen Cerealis to Rutilius Bardulus
F. Galerius Aurelianus to Rutilius Bardulus. Salve.

Are you still active in NR or following the ML, good sir? If you
are, please get in touch with me should you have information to
share. Does anyone know Rutilius Bardulus and, if so, can they put
me in touch with him? Thank you for the suggestion, Arminia.

Vale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Ave;
> Rutilius Bardulus from Complutum used to be the Flamen Cerealis,
> why not confer with him ?
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen" <Patrick.Owen@s...>
> wrote:
> > F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
> >
> > I appeal to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for help. I seek
> all
> > information; poetry, songs, carmina, rituals (including current
> works
> > and reconstructions), and other historical data on the Cult of
the
> > Goddess Ceres, the God Liber, the Goddess Libera, and the
Aventine
> > Triad.
> >
> > I currently have information from Spaeth THE ROMAN GODDESS CERES,
> > Beard & North RELIGIONS OF ROME, Ferguson ROMAN RELIGION, Duzemil
> > ARCHAIC ROMAN RELIGION, and Scheid. I also have Varro, Cato,
> > Valerius Maximus, Cicero, and Ovid (Fasti). I am especially
> looking
> > for an English translation of Bonnaire's work on the Roman
Goddess
> > Ceres.
> >
> > No one person, regardless of their background or training, can
hope
> > to find everything on the Net or in print on the Cult of Ceres,
> > Liber, and Libera. So I appeal to all Nova Romans and others who
> > follow the Religio the contribute whatever you can to the
> restoration
> > of the worship of Ceres and the Aventine Triad. Many of the
> > principal festivals of Rome and the Religio are tied to Ceres,
> Liber,
> > Libera, Tellus, and Ops.
> >
> > I especially appeal to all of the Plebs for contributions since
the
> > Cult of the Aventine Triad and Ceres is the official cult of the
> > Plebeian Order. The sanctitas of the Tribunes and the Plebeian
> > Aediles is derived from the Temple of Ceres and, in ancient Rome,
> the
> > Plebs gave their oath to defend the Tribunes by force from
> violation
> > or violence by the Patricians.
> >
> > Please email me either privately or publicly with your
> > contributions. May the Goddess bless and keep you and grant you
> all
> > bountiful harvests.
> >
> > Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28947 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-20
Subject: Re: Fwd: Pontifeces please
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Salvete;

I have already voiced my opinion. If other pontifices wish to comment as
well so be it.

Valete;

Modius

In a message dated 9/20/2004 8:54:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rory12001@... writes:

--- Avete Quirites;
I will repost my respectful question every Monday, waiting for a
scholarly answer or until Nova Roma elections, November 17th,
vox populi vox dei





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28948 From: Leah Eddy Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: confusion
I applied for citizenship in Nova Roma I received an e-mail from the censores that my name was incorrect. I replied to the e-mail giving them my corrected name as Iusta Sempronia Iustina. I received a notice of non delivery of my message. Today I accessed the Files section of the site and tried to access two messages that were of interest to me. One was concerning the Virtues and the other the Academia. I don't know who else to turn to in my dilemma. I didn't want to post this on the list as I have not yet received my citizenship.
Respectfully
Iusta Sempronia Iustina


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28949 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
SALVE DIANA,

Are you DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA? If not, please excuse my intrusion!
If you are, just to say hello and ask how are things with you and in
Rome these days?

As you know I have been long absent - unfortunately, and not for the
first time, serious personal problems obliged me to withdraw from ALL
public life.

I am considering returning to the Main List actively but there is
much I see in the posts as troubling, then I saw your post and was
concerned that someone as dedicated to ROMA AETERNA as you apppears
to be outcast? Surely, this cannot be so?

VALE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

VERITAS LVX MEA


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4" <meretrix@p...> wrote:
>
> <I am now an outcast and degenerate because I disagree with <those
> <who don't like what I ahve to say...
>
> Et Tu Brutus? :-)
>
> Vale
> Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28950 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Salve Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus,

I do believe that you keep responding to my emails even though none
of them have been addressed to you for many months.

That said: I believe in everyone's freedom of speech including
yours. So feel free to continue making as many antagonistic remarks
to me as you want but your constant attempts at provoking me into an
argument are futile.

Thanks,
Diana Octavia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
Troianus <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:
> Salva Diana ~
>
> Are you seriously lamenting restrictions against disrespecting the
> Gods? What a peculiar position for a Sacerdos to take!
>
> Other than that we have full freedom to express our ideas, so this
is
> apparently what you are referring to.
>
> A Priestess who appears to feel we should be able to disrespect
the
> Gods in an organization meant to restore Their worship! How...
Odd.
>
> Vale
> ~ Troianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28951 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Request from the Flamen Cerealis to Rutilius Bardulus
Salve,

Bardulus did an excelent .pdf with everything about Ceres. It was a
wonderful contribution I used to use extensively.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen"
<Patrick.Owen@s...> wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus to Rutilius Bardulus. Salve.
>
> Are you still active in NR or following the ML, good sir? If you
> are, please get in touch with me should you have information to
> share. Does anyone know Rutilius Bardulus and, if so, can they put
> me in touch with him? Thank you for the suggestion, Arminia.
>
> Vale.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Ave;
> > Rutilius Bardulus from Complutum used to be the Flamen
Cerealis,
> > why not confer with him ?
> > vale
> > M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick D. Owen"
<Patrick.Owen@s...>
> > wrote:
> > > F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.
> > >
> > > I appeal to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for help. I
seek
> > all
> > > information; poetry, songs, carmina, rituals (including current
> > works
> > > and reconstructions), and other historical data on the Cult of
> the
> > > Goddess Ceres, the God Liber, the Goddess Libera, and the
> Aventine
> > > Triad.
> > >
> > > I currently have information from Spaeth THE ROMAN GODDESS
CERES,
> > > Beard & North RELIGIONS OF ROME, Ferguson ROMAN RELIGION,
Duzemil
> > > ARCHAIC ROMAN RELIGION, and Scheid. I also have Varro, Cato,
> > > Valerius Maximus, Cicero, and Ovid (Fasti). I am especially
> > looking
> > > for an English translation of Bonnaire's work on the Roman
> Goddess
> > > Ceres.
> > >
> > > No one person, regardless of their background or training, can
> hope
> > > to find everything on the Net or in print on the Cult of Ceres,
> > > Liber, and Libera. So I appeal to all Nova Romans and others
who
> > > follow the Religio the contribute whatever you can to the
> > restoration
> > > of the worship of Ceres and the Aventine Triad. Many of the
> > > principal festivals of Rome and the Religio are tied to Ceres,
> > Liber,
> > > Libera, Tellus, and Ops.
> > >
> > > I especially appeal to all of the Plebs for contributions since
> the
> > > Cult of the Aventine Triad and Ceres is the official cult of
the
> > > Plebeian Order. The sanctitas of the Tribunes and the Plebeian
> > > Aediles is derived from the Temple of Ceres and, in ancient
Rome,
> > the
> > > Plebs gave their oath to defend the Tribunes by force from
> > violation
> > > or violence by the Patricians.
> > >
> > > Please email me either privately or publicly with your
> > > contributions. May the Goddess bless and keep you and grant
you
> > all
> > > bountiful harvests.
> > >
> > > Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28952 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Salve,

Welcome back, Gracche! What really happened to you?

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
<cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> SALVE DIANA,
>
> Are you DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA? If not, please excuse my intrusion!
> If you are, just to say hello and ask how are things with you and
in
> Rome these days?
>
> As you know I have been long absent - unfortunately, and not for
the
> first time, serious personal problems obliged me to withdraw from
ALL
> public life.
>
> I am considering returning to the Main List actively but there is
> much I see in the posts as troubling, then I saw your post and was
> concerned that someone as dedicated to ROMA AETERNA as you apppears
> to be outcast? Surely, this cannot be so?
>
> VALE
>
> M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE
>
> TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
>
> VERITAS LVX MEA
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4" <meretrix@p...> wrote:
> >
> > <I am now an outcast and degenerate because I disagree with
<those
> > <who don't like what I ahve to say...
> >
> > Et Tu Brutus? :-)
> >
> > Vale
> > Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28953 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Salve Gracchus,

Yup it's me Diana Moravia but now I am in Gens Octavia.

It's nice to see you back in the Forum!

I'll email you offlist with a more chatty email.

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28954 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Getting together in NYC
Salvete all,

I am trying to organize a NR get-together between Dec 26 and January
2 in the NYC area. So far we have 4 citizens who are interested in
getting together (Vedius, Palladius and Calvus). But all citizens
in the NYC area are welcomed!

We need to find a date that suits everyone, so I've set up a
temporary Yahoogroup

leden-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
('Leden' means 'members' in Dutch). If you are intersested in
getting together, please subscribe to the list.

Valete,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28955 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix S.P.D.

Salve.

Sybil Leek wrote:

>Salvete Omnes,
>
>Odd question do we have a continually burning flame to Vesta for our New
>Roman state?
>Or a state oriented Lararium for Nova Roma?
>
>
Unfortunately (to the best of my knowledge) the ansewer is no. Given the
unique requirements of the office of Vestal, it has been very diffucult
to interest anyone in the office, and even more difficult to keep them
there. Also the logisitics of keeping a "continual" flame burning in a
modern home safely make it problematic as well. It's a dilema the CP has
been wrestling with for awhile, and may only be resolved with the
establishment of NR's first physical temple.

>Ave,
>Prima Ritulia Nocta
>
>
Vale bene,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minervae Aedis Sacerdos
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28956 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Salve, Diana.

Living as I do in Manhattan, of course I'm interested (I mentioned
this a while ago). Please let me know how (or if) I can help
organize a meeting (I have some influence with restaurants, museums,
etc. by virtue of my job). The link provided is an email link,
though, not a link to the group?

Vale,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4" <meretrix@p...> wrote:
> Salvete all,
>
> I am trying to organize a NR get-together between Dec 26 and
January
> 2 in the NYC area. So far we have 4 citizens who are interested in
> getting together (Vedius, Palladius and Calvus). But all citizens
> in the NYC area are welcomed!
>
> We need to find a date that suits everyone, so I've set up a
> temporary Yahoogroup
>
> leden-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> ('Leden' means 'members' in Dutch). If you are intersested in
> getting together, please subscribe to the list.
>
> Valete,
> Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28957 From: meretrix4 Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Salve Cato,

> Living as I do in Manhattan, of course I'm interested (I mentioned
> this a while ago).
Great!

<Please let me know how (or if) I can help
> organize a meeting (I have some influence with restaurants,
<museums, etc. by virtue of my job).

Even greater! As soon as we get everyone who is interested on the
list, and as soon as we figure out a date, then we can figure out
what we'll do together.

<The link provided is an email link,
> though, not a link to the group?

Oops. That was the address where you can send an email to subscribe.
here is the link.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/leden/

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28958 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: LUDI CIRCENSIS - Semifinals
Salvete omnes,

I have read the results of the Semis and have a very interesting question:

In the second Semifinal this chariot took part:

4. - quadriga, AMAROK; Charioteer, Michael Olfieldus; Factio, RUSSATA; Dominus, P. Constantinus Placidus of Italia.

However, this chariot came in 3rd Place during the Quarters and my chariot, Basilea, is listed as coming in 2nd Place.

Why did not my chariot take part in the Semis???? This is allready the second time, this happens to my chariot in the last few races! What is going wrong?

Thank you for clearing this in peace, TiAnO



Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO) Factio Praesina
Lictor curiatus of Nova Roma
Translator linguae Germanicae for Nova Roma
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris in Nova Roma
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Owner of the winning chariot in the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris

Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt or http://www.tylus.ch.tt

Citizen of the NRR




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28959 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
SALVE DIANA!

It's good to hear from you again, your kind words and warm welcome
mean alot.

Gens OCTAVIA - ah, you'll be in the capable hands of GERMANICVS!

I look forward to our chat!

Talk to you soon

VALE

GRACCHVS


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4" <meretrix@p...> wrote:
> Salve Gracchus,
>
> Yup it's me Diana Moravia but now I am in Gens Octavia.
>
> It's nice to see you back in the Forum!
>
> I'll email you offlist with a more chatty email.
>
> Vale,
> Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28960 From: Q. Salix Cantaber URANICUS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: LUDI CIRCENSIS - Semifinals
Ave, Tiberie.
> I have read the results of the Semis and have a very
> interesting question:
>
> In the second Semifinal this chariot took part:
> 4. - quadriga, AMAROK; Charioteer, Michael Olfieldus;
> Factio, RUSSATA; Dominus, P. Constantinus Placidus
> of Italia.
>
> However, this chariot came in 3rd Place during the
> Quarters and my chariot, Basilea, is listed as coming in
> 2nd Place.
>
> Why did not my chariot take part in the Semis???? This
> is allready the second time, this happens to my chariot in
> the last few races! What is going wrong?
>
> Thank you for clearing this in peace, TiAnO


Oh... I'm sorry!

It is an error that I have made when accomplishing the translation.

The result of the fourth semifinal has been the following one:

I. - CTESIPHON driven by Hemeros; of the Factio VENETA.
II. - AMAROK driven by Michael Olfieldus; of the Factio RUSSATA.
III. - Basilea driven by Septimius Raudax, of the Factio PRAESINA.
Accident victim. - Delecta Mea, driven by Crescens, of the Factio PRAESINA.

Only both are classified first in arriving: Ctesiphon and Amarok.

My error has take because I write the stories in Spanish first and later I must translate them to English... that it is a language that I don't know in depth and only for little time. I lent more attention to the language that to the text.

I will transfer the corrected text so that all can you see the real results.

I apologize with you for it. If you don't agree with the result I put your reclamation to the Colegium Aediles: I will send the data of the race so that they judge their reclamation.

Cordially yours.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28961 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS TRIBVNO LVCIO ARMINIO FAVSTO S.P.D.

Salve Fauste,

May I thank you noble Tribune and honourable PROPRAETOR for your kind
welcome - I appreciate your kindness.

As for my prolonged absence from Rome, I'm sure you will understand
honourable FAVSTVS if I prefer to keep those reasons to myself, as
they are personal to my family and myself.

GRATIAS MAXIMAS TIBI AGO

VALE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
CIVIV NOVAE ROMAE

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

VERITAS LVX MEA




-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Welcome back, Gracche! What really happened to you?
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > SALVE DIANA,
> >
> > Are you DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA? If not, please excuse my
intrusion!
> > If you are, just to say hello and ask how are things with you and
> in
> > Rome these days?
> >
> > As you know I have been long absent - unfortunately, and not for
> the
> > first time, serious personal problems obliged me to withdraw from
> ALL
> > public life.
> >
> > I am considering returning to the Main List actively but there
is
> > much I see in the posts as troubling, then I saw your post and
was
> > concerned that someone as dedicated to ROMA AETERNA as you
apppears
> > to be outcast? Surely, this cannot be so?
> >
> > VALE
> >
> > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE
> >
> > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> >
> > VERITAS LVX MEA
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4" <meretrix@p...>
wrote:
> > >
> > > <I am now an outcast and degenerate because I disagree with
> <those
> > > <who don't like what I ahve to say...
> > >
> > > Et Tu Brutus? :-)
> > >
> > > Vale
> > > Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28962 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana M.Calidio Graccho salutem dicit;
Ave Gracche;
it is good to see you back as well as Caesariensis! Please both of
you drop by the NRHibernia list, it would be nice to plan a get-
together of Hiberni!
bene vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28963 From: fabruwil Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Albany NY Citizens?
Salvete omnes,

I was just wondering if there were any active Nova Romans in or
around NY State's Capital District for a possible meeting? I'm at
SUNY and don't have a car, but I could certainly find a way to get
somewhere around here!

Gratias multas,

T. Aurelius Ursus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28964 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
Salve,

No problem at all. It is good to see you again.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
<cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS TRIBVNO LVCIO ARMINIO FAVSTO S.P.D.
>
> Salve Fauste,
>
> May I thank you noble Tribune and honourable PROPRAETOR for your
kind
> welcome - I appreciate your kindness.
>
> As for my prolonged absence from Rome, I'm sure you will understand
> honourable FAVSTVS if I prefer to keep those reasons to myself, as
> they are personal to my family and myself.
>
> GRATIAS MAXIMAS TIBI AGO
>
> VALE
>
> M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> CIVIV NOVAE ROMAE
>
> TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
>
> VERITAS LVX MEA
>
>
>
>
> -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Welcome back, Gracche! What really happened to you?
> >
> > Vale,
> > L. Arminius Faustus TRP
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
> > <cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
> > > SALVE DIANA,
> > >
> > > Are you DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA? If not, please excuse my
> intrusion!
> > > If you are, just to say hello and ask how are things with you
and
> > in
> > > Rome these days?
> > >
> > > As you know I have been long absent - unfortunately, and not
for
> > the
> > > first time, serious personal problems obliged me to withdraw
from
> > ALL
> > > public life.
> > >
> > > I am considering returning to the Main List actively but there
> is
> > > much I see in the posts as troubling, then I saw your post and
> was
> > > concerned that someone as dedicated to ROMA AETERNA as you
> apppears
> > > to be outcast? Surely, this cannot be so?
> > >
> > > VALE
> > >
> > > M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
> > > CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE
> > >
> > > TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
> > >
> > > VERITAS LVX MEA
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4" <meretrix@p...>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <I am now an outcast and degenerate because I disagree with
> > <those
> > > > <who don't like what I ahve to say...
> > > >
> > > > Et Tu Brutus? :-)
> > > >
> > > > Vale
> > > > Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28965 From: Flavia Tullia Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: FWD re intermediate Latin course at Academia Thules
Flavia Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque omnibus
praesertim fautoribus Linguae Latinae S.P.D.


Collega meus Avitus me rogavit ut descriptionem scholarum seriei infra
scriptam ad Forum Praecipuum Novae Romae mittam, cuius particeps non est.

My colleague Avitus has asked me to send the course description below to
the Main List, of which he is not a member.

___________________________________________________________________________


>
> ____________________________________________________
> DE LINGVA LATINA IN NR: Learn to speak Latin, join my "Intermediate Active
> Latin (Assimil)" course!
>
>
> A. Gratius Garseius Avitus
> concivibus Novae Romae optimis suís
> S·P·D
>
> We all know that the aim of Nova Roma is to bring about a general
> revival of all aspects of Roman civilisation, from politics to religion,
> from philosophy to cookery or literature or the arts, a core aspect of that
> Roman culture being the Virtues that gave a small city on the banks of the
> Tiber the moral and practical strength to govern much of the world, virtues
> that are most sorely lacking in our society today.
>
> It can escape no-one, though, that there is only one language in which
> those virtues and that culture and civilisation ever found their most
> authentic and universal expression. The language Rome spoke was Latin. The
> Latin language is the most apt and only authentic vehicle to fully express
> the Roman culture, to gain access to her literature, her ideas and
> philosophies, to immerse oneself in her ethics and virtues, to not only
> understand but also intimately adopt and perfectly embody her complete
> world-view and way of life; it is also the only language in which the Roman
> religious rites can be duly performed.
>
> Nova Roma shows the essential importance of this language in all its
> terminology; the different positions of government, the official names of
> the laws and decrees, the names of the virtues are all expressed in Latin.
>
> It is essential to promote the Lingua Latina and its revival in all
> circumstances of life among our fellow citizens.
>
> Most people think that Latin is a dead language, as dead as the Roman
> virtues or the culture it conveyed; but we, Nova Romans, know it doesn't
> have to be like that, not for the virtues, not for the culture, not for the
> language. Latin was the living language of our Roman forefathers, and it is
> a language like all others, that can be learnt in a leisurely way and spoken
> in all situations of everyday life. In fact, there is already a large
> community of Latin speakers out there that prove that this is the case. One
> can find lots of information about that in sites like
> <http://www.latinitatis.com/>.
>
> We shouldn't be left behind. We are the rightful depositaries of the
> Roman culture and civilisation, and we should be able and willing to use the
> language of our ancestors as part of our all-encompassing Roman revival.
>
> I know there are many people among us that have learnt some amount of
> Latin before, and can even remember some basics, but have forgotten so much
> that are now unable to deal with the language of our ancestors by
> themselves; other people may have learnt some basic Latin more recently, or
> be even still learning it elsewhere, but don¹t yet feel confident enough
> with the language.
>
> For such people I, a Latin philologist fluent in the language and with a
> long teaching experience, am now offering a course that will take you to the
> level of Latin at which you can start your independent exploration of the
> sources, and actually bring back to active life and everyday usage the
> eternal language of our forefathers. On completion of the course, you will
> be able to enjoy the less convoluted Latin texts without being enslaved to
> the dictionary, and will also be capable of Latin conversation at an
> intermediate level.
>
> This course, entitled "Intermediate Active Latin (Assimil)", is going to
> start on 18th October 2757 [2004] at the Academia Thules, and I strongly
> encourage as many Nova Roma citizens as possible to join in. You will be
> able to enrol, and find much more detailed information about the course, at
> <http://www.academiathules.org/indexcour.html> under 'Open courses'.
>
> Macte virtute estote!
>
> Curate ut valeatis optime
_____________________________________________________________________


Concivis Avitus noster, magister, Latinista notus in Europa est, qui
linguae Latinae circa XIX annos studuit, et librum de mutationibus
vocabulorum Latinorum per tempus scribit.

Our fellow-citizen Avitus, the instructor, is a prominent European
Latinist who has studied Latin for approximately 19 years, and is writing a
book about the changes in Latin vocabulary over time.

Valete,

Flavia Tullia Scholastica
Accensa Latinitati Consuli Gnaeo Equitio Marino
Latinista et Hellenista, Sodalitatis Musarum
Moderatrix Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28966 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Divination
A. Apollonius Cordus C. Equitió Catóní amícó
omnibusque sal.

You wrote to Fábius Máximus:

> Also, please take the time to refer to us as
> "Moderati", not "Mods",
> just as we refer to you as "Boni", not "Bones".
> Simple courtesy.

I suspect the senátor is indulging in a mildly clever
piece of political insinuation by trying to coin a
catchy abbreviation for your group which, by a happy
(from his point of view) coincidence, is rather
suggestive not just of moderation but of modernism.

Perhaps another motive at play is that, at least to
Britons and fans of The Who, if you fellows are the
Mods then he and his fellow conjúrátí must be the
Rockers. Look out for guitar-smashing and fist-fights
on the sea-front! :)





___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28967 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Salvete Qvirites! September 23rd marks the birthday of
the Divine Augustus! Traditionally, libations to His
Genius are in order for the day. Valete! Frater Gaivs
Ivlivs Ivlianvs, Flamen Floralis, PGI



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28968 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
In a message dated 9/21/04 6:36:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
c.minucius.hadrianus@... writes:

Odd question do we have a continually burning flame to Vesta for our New
>Roman state?
>Or a state oriented Lararium for Nova Roma?
>



I'm not a vestal, being male, but i have a votive light (A 12" candle in a
red glass sleeve)
lit on my fireplace hearth daily, representing respect for Vesta and NR with
a second one standing by to be lit from the first.
I lit it using my old boy scout flint and steel. I have gone through 124
candles now.
I get them from a Christian supply house. When I was an altar boy, one of
the duties of
senior boy was to make sure the candle by the altar representing Christ
presence in Tabernical was lit at all times. Looks like this was another idea
lifted from the Religio
by Christians.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28969 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Mehercule! Iuli Iuliane;
this good pleb and republican is not going to pray to the destoyer
of our liberty;-)
bene vale
M.Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propratrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Qvirites! September 23rd marks the birthday of
> the Divine Augustus! Traditionally, libations to His
> Genius are in order for the day. Valete! Frater Gaivs
> Ivlivs Ivlianvs, Flamen Floralis, PGI
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28970 From: fabruwil Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
That's the birthday of my dad and my best friend too... Wow, that's a
coincidence!

-Ursus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28971 From: Salix Cantaber Uranicus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Salvete omnes.

I regret the delay a lot, but I have had computer problems that have been delayed when giving the files.

Finally WE HAVE WINNER IN HE LUDI CIRCENSIS.

The final career has been very touching and you can know the result in http://www.insulaumbra.com/aediles/perusianus/ludi/m_circ_results2.html#final

I want to congratulate HADRIANUS RUTILUS BARDULUS like winner of thechariot races an add those received by their victory in the competition of the photo-quiz.

Congratulations to the Factio RUSSATA, the great winner of this Ludi: four races conquered in seven races celebrated!

I want to thank to all the participants for their collaboration and I encourage them to that continue supporting the Games of NOVA ROMA.

Thanks to all, on my behalf and in that of the Collegium Aediles, especially to Marcus Iulius Perusianus. We will continue working to give you what you/they deserve: PANEM ET CIRCENSIS.... Well, only we can take charge of the Circensis...

Valete bene in pace deorum.

Quintus Salix Cantaber Uranicus
Scriba Aedilis Ludorum - COHORTIS AEDILIS MARCI IVLI PERVSIANI
Scriba Propraetoris Arenae PROVINCIA HISPANIE

Note:
In a short time the error in the classification of the Quarters-D will be corrected. You can check that this only error is in the order, and that the story is correct about the arrival in the goal.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28972 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
G. Equitius Cato Q. Fabio Maximo S.P.D.

Salve, Fabius Maximus.

The Presence Lamp at the altar of a Christian church symbolizes
Christ as the Light of the World:

"I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in
darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)

Only churches which recognize the Real Presence have such lights.
It has nothing to do with the hearth or home, unlike Vesta's fire.
So no, it is not an adaptation by Christians from the religio.

Vale,

Cato

[SNIP]
the candle by the altar representing Christ
> presence in Tabernical was lit at all times. Looks like this was
another idea
> lifted from the Religio
> by Christians.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28973 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
Salvete Quirites,

Lucius Iulius wrote:

> AVETE CIVES ROMANI
>
> And now... the final classification!
>
> Honour and glory to Livia Iulia Drusilla! Honour and glory to Gens
> Iulia!

Congratulations Livia Iulia! Well done indeed! That was a heck of a
contest, and you did very well.

> Many compliments to all the participants, mostly for those that made
> me sweat a lot for the publication of the most difficoult questions
> I could invent!

Yes, congratulations to all who participated, and to Lucius Iulius Sulla
for his work in organizing the contest.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28974 From: quintuscassiuscalvus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame?
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Q. Fabio Maximo S.P.D.
>
> Salve, Fabius Maximus.
>
> The Presence Lamp at the altar of a Christian church symbolizes
> Christ as the Light of the World:
>
> "I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in
> darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)
>
> Only churches which recognize the Real Presence have such lights.
> It has nothing to do with the hearth or home, unlike Vesta's
fire.
> So no, it is not an adaptation by Christians from the religio.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato

Salve,

Actually Christianity did lift the concept of fire as a symbol of
holiness and the Presence of God, but not from the Romans and
Vesta. They lifted it from the Jews who had a presence lamp in
front of the Ark of the Covenant to show the Presence of God in the
Ark.

"And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee
pure olive oil beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn
always. In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail,
which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it
from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute for
ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of
Israel." -- Exodus 27:20-21

The concept of an eternal flame as a religious symbol is ancient and
transcends cultures and theologies. You'll find references to holy
flame in Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism. Name a religion and no
doubt you will find some reference to "holy fire." Fire is
magical, hypnotic, powerful, and dangerous. The flame that cooks
your food and lights the night can burn down your home. It's no
wonder that fire was and is so closely associated with the divine no
matter how one wishes to define it.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28975 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
SALVE GNEI EQUITI

> Yes, congratulations to all who participated, and to Lucius Iulius
> Sulla for his work in organizing the contest.

Thank you my Consul, it was an honour for me to organize such a
contest with the Consul as a participant, and it was HARD to resist
to the temptation to let him win for my future carreer! ;-)

BENE VALE
L IUL SULLA


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Lucius Iulius wrote:
>
> > AVETE CIVES ROMANI
> >
> > And now... the final classification!
> >
> > Honour and glory to Livia Iulia Drusilla! Honour and glory to
Gens
> > Iulia!
>
> Congratulations Livia Iulia! Well done indeed! That was a heck
of a
> contest, and you did very well.
>
> > Many compliments to all the participants, mostly for those that
made
> > me sweat a lot for the publication of the most difficoult
questions
> > I could invent!
>
> Yes, congratulations to all who participated, and to Lucius Iulius
Sulla
> for his work in organizing the contest.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28976 From: MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: When in Rome...
M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS M. ARMINIAE MAIORI FABIANAE S.P.D.

AVE MAIOR,

My thanks honourable PROPRAETORIX for your kind welcome and your kind
invitation to the NRHibernia list. HIBERNIA's own list! I shall look
forward to it! There is much to discuss.

I do not believe I had the pleasure of being introduced to
CAESARIENSIS but I hope that shall be remedied in due course.

May I also say, honourable MAIOR, that you are to be commended,
indeed, for you work with our PROVINCIA thus far.

VALE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE

PROVINCIA HIBERINA

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

VERITAS LVX MEA




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana M.Calidio Graccho salutem dicit;
> Ave Gracche;
> it is good to see you back as well as Caesariensis! Please both of
> you drop by the NRHibernia list, it would be nice to plan a get-
> together of Hiberni!
> bene vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28977 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: New Email Address
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I have been taken up the last two weeks with the process of moving cross country and
have had only intermittent access to the internet in the process. My email address has
changed and is now gregory.rose@...; the old addres, gfr@..., will
continue to bne active until Oct. 1, but I would take it as a kindness if email were
henceforth posted to the new address. I apologise to those to whom I have not yet
replied, but 8,000+ accujmulated emails are a pile digging through which will take me
rather a bit of time.

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28978 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
Avete;
Surely the gods love you as the honor & glory is yours Livia
Iulia!
And Luci Iuli I must say that was one incredible quiz; maybe by
next year I'll be able to answer one question;-)
optime valete
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > Lucius Iulius wrote:
> >
> > > AVETE CIVES ROMANI
> > >
> > > And now... the final classification!
> > >
> > > Honour and glory to Livia Iulia Drusilla! Honour and glory to
> Gens
> > > Iulia!
> >
> > Congratulations Livia Iulia! Well done indeed! That was a heck
> of a
> > contest, and you did very well.
> >
> > > Many compliments to all the participants, mostly for those that
> made
> > > me sweat a lot for the publication of the most difficoult
> questions
> > > I could invent!
> >
> > Yes, congratulations to all who participated, and to Lucius
Iulius
> Sulla
> > for his work in organizing the contest.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28979 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Divination
In a message dated 9/21/04 11:12:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
a_apollonius_cordus@... writes:

Perhaps another motive at play is that, at least to
Britons and fans of The Who, if you fellows are the
Mods then he and his fellow conjúrátí must be the
Rockers. Look out for guitar-smashing and fist-fights
on the sea-front! :)



I was always a Rocker. T-shirts and blue jeans...

Mod in this case has nothing to with bright colored clothes ala Austin
Powers.
It's just easy to write MOD. However, you point is taken, Apollonius, they
are more modern then my faction is.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28980 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
queens,n.y. not close enough? let me know.
--- fabruwil@... <fabruwil@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I was just wondering if there were any active Nova
Romans in or
> around NY State's Capital District for a possible
meeting? I'm at
> SUNY and don't have a car, but I could certainly
find a way to get
> somewhere around here!
>
> Gratias multas,
>
> T. Aurelius Ursus
>
>
>


=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen






__________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28981 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame-A common practice in cultures and faiths
F. Galerius Aurelianus Flamen Cerealis S.P.D.

Many cultures and religions have used "eternal flames" to symbolize their
Gods. The temples of Hestia in Greece had eternal fires as did the Temple of
Vesta in Rome. The Zoroastrians worship Ahura-Mazda and He is represented by
both the Sun and an eternal flame. The presence light used in Roman-Catholic,
Orthodox, and some Anglican churches has been used for such a long time that the
origin of the custom is lost in the early years of the Christian Church but
as with vestments, Latin & Greek ecclesiastical titles, and the use of many
ancient festivals, it would not be a stretch to hypothesize that it was adopted
from older non-Christian practices. I am sure that Cato as a member of one of
the two oldest organized Christian Churches will recognize that the Cult of
the Virgin, the celebration of Christmas, and much of the iconography of the
birth of the Christ originated from religions other than Judaism or Christianity.

The evocation to Mater Vesta to witness the daily Lararium rites and most
other rites of the Religio insures that all followers of the Religio are Her
priests and priestesses even as Iane Pater is evoked to open the way to the
Shining Immortals.
In Arlington National Cemetery here in the USA, an eternal flame burns at the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers and the final resting place of the late
President J. F. Kennedy. However, this is more a remembrance or memorial than a
religious use of the eternal flame.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28982 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Divination
easy to write MOD. However, you point is taken, Apollonius, they
> are more modern then my faction is.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Salvete;
I would say the Boni are the most modern faction in Nova Roma. As
Cordus pointed out secret societies were forbidden in Republican
days. Such goings on would have horrified traditionalists such as
Cato Uticensis.
valete
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28983 From: fabruwil Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Salve -

Queens is just a bit far off from here!

-Ursus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28984 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Dé comitiís calátís
A. Apollonius Cordus M. Arminiae Maiórí amícae et Cn.
Júlió Caesarí et omnibus sal.

First let me respond to a couple of things which have
been written today. Those interested in the main
discussion about the comitia caláta and the creation
of pontificés should skip ahead past the quoted
passages.

Maior wrote:

> The comitia calata which met in republican times is
> another form of
> the comitia centuriata. p. 18 Jolowicz

This is, of course, a typing error. What p. 18 of
Jolowicz says is that the comitia caláta is the same
as the comitia cúriáta, as has been discussed.

Maior also wrote:

> Sorry to post a personal note on the ML but Corde
> since you're at
> the library, I've read a review of Scheid's book he
> is a Professor at
> the College de France and the authority,

Sorry, I left the library immediately after writing
that last message yesterday, and I didnÂ’t read this
message of yours when I was there earlier today. IÂ’ve
come back to London now, but next time IÂ’m in Oxford
IÂ’ll have a look at that.

... and also:

> the end of this whole discussion is that Cordus
> is trying to find
> John Scheid's source for the election process of the
> Lex Domitia.
> Since Scheid is the expert on the Religio Romana
> and professor at
> the College de France, his opinion prevails over
> yours or Cordus's.

Indeed. The question, however, is not whether he is
correct, but precisely what his statements signify.
His book is a general introduction and is not, of
course, concerned with the procedural rules of the
comitia caláta in the regal period and the early
republic. So when his book says something interesting
but brief concerning such matters, itÂ’s important to
try to trace the statement to its source in order to
discover precisely what weÂ’re dealing with.

> What boggles my mind is that neither of you have
> read his book
> before you presumed to discuss this matter.

You say that rather as though ScheidÂ’s book is the
undisputed and singular authority on all matters
concerning the réligió, and that it is sheer folly for
anyone to attempt to discuss such things without
reading it. On the contrary, the book is a rather slim
volume which is clearly intended as a general
introductory textbook (it cannot be intended primarily
for academics or even for undergraduates, since it
lacks footnotes or references to primary sources). Nor
is it even the most widely used or comprehensive
introductory textbook. I donÂ’t doubt that it is
accurate and useful, but it is by no means
indispensible.

> Smythe's dictionary from 1897 is not a proper
> source.

SmithÂ’s dictionary has to be handled with care, as
IÂ’ve said before. ItÂ’s old, which means that a small
part of its contents has been overtaken by the
scholarship of the intervening century. It also comes
from an era of different academic fashions. In those
days it was very hard for scholars to bring themselves
to accept uncertainty on any point, so if Gellius said
that the comitia caláta sometimes met in centuriae
rather than cúriae, some function had to be identified
for these strange caláta comitia centuriáta, even if
the evidence was non-existent; today, on the other
hand, the fashion is to be more cautious and to have
readier resort to words like ‘unknown’. But the most
serious problem with the dictionary is simply that it
is very dense, and can often be misleading to a reader
who doesnÂ’t already know the topic at hand quite well:
its purpose seems to be not to allow the novice to
gain an acquaintance with a variety of subjects, like
a modern encyclopaedia, but to allow the scholar to
find further information and references on a topic he
was already somewhat acquainted with. Having said all
that, most of the information in the dictionary is
accurate and rather more helpful than most things one
can find on the internet. The trick is to be careful
with it, and to try to cross-check with another
source.

Now, having disposed (I hope) of all that, letÂ’s see
where weÂ’re up to. IÂ’ll re-cap for those who have lost
track, and so that you can tell me if IÂ’ve lost track
myself.

The léx Domitia of 105 changed the method by which
pontificés were chosen. Previously they had been
chosen by the existing pontificés (that is, they were
co-opted). After the léx Domitia, the pontificés
prepared a shortlist from which the winning candidate
was elected by the comitia tribúta in much the same
way as quaestórés, for example, were elected, except
that only half the tribes (chosen by lot) voted. There
is some talk of reviving in Nova Róma the system
created by the léx Domitia. Naturally enough,
attention has turned to the historical details
surrounding the issue. Cónsul Equitius Marinus has
argued that from the creation of the pontificés during
the regal period, the right to regulate the state cult
(the réligió pública) on behalf of the populus (this
right being the jús pontificum) was conferred upon the
pontificés by the comitia caláta. The comitia caláta,
however, declined in importance in the early
republican period or before, and by the late republic
– so runs the argument – was no longer sufficiently
representative of the populus to have any meaningful
right to act on its behalf in conferring the jús
pontificum on anyone. Accordingly, the transfer of the
election of pontificés to the comitia tribúta, which
was a more genuinely representative assembly, was a
proper and pious act.

So, this is how it comes about that we are interested
in the details of the comitia caláta in the regal and
early republican periods. Július Caesar has argued, in
criticism of MarinusÂ’ suggestions, that the comitia
caláta which was involved in the creation of new
pontificés cannot possibly have played any more active
part than to simply witness the co-option of the new
pontifex by the collégium pontificum. Therefore,
argues Caesar, the populus never played any active
role in the creation of new pontificés, and the léx
Domitia was an outright innovation rather than a
return to something resembling ancient practice.

Against CaesarÂ’s arguments, I have pointed out that it
is impossible, on the evidence currently available, to
say for certain that the involvement of the comitia
caláta in the creation of pontificés didn’t go beyond
mere witnessing to active voting. It is known that the
comitia caláta did vote on some occasions and that on
other occasions it did not. It is not known, however,
whether the creation of new pontificés was one of the
former occasions or one of the latter. After another
dayÂ’s research today, IÂ’m now fairly well convinced
that there simply is no evidence either way.

Now, we have to remember that even if the comitia
caláta did vote on these occasions, that doesn’t mean
that the voters had a real choice. For one thing, on
those occasions when the comitia caláta did certainly
vote there are no examples (as far as I know) of them
ever voting ‘no’. On the other hand, it seems very
likely that there was a real possibility of a ‘no’
vote at least in the early period, for otherwise the
logic of having a vote at all is questionable, and so
too is the logic of taking the matter before the
comitia in the first place. The problem is that most
of our evidence concerns the middle and late
republican periods. By that time the vast majority of
the functions of the comitia cúriáta (the comitia
caláta was the name given to the comitia cúriáta when
it was convened by a pontifex) had been transferred to
other comitia. The result seems to have been that on
at least some occasions very few people bothered to go
to the comitia caláta at all.

Ciceró (dé lég. agr. 2.12.31) indicates that when the
comitia cúriáta met “auspiciórum causa” (for the sake
of the auspices) it was “per XXX líctórés cónstitútí”.
This is rather tricky. The líctórés were the
representatives of the cúriae, one from each cúria.
Gellius says they summoned the cúriae for meetings of
the comitia caláta – presumably each líctor gave his
cúria notice of the meeting. The phrase used by Ciceró
is usually interpreted as meaning “comprised of 30
líctórés”, and the whole passage is therefore taken to
mean that by Ciceró’s time the comitia cúriáta was
composed only of the 30 líctórés and no one else.
However, as Watson has pointed out (‘Law Making In The
Later Roman RepublicÂ’ (Oxford University Press, 1974),
p. 19 n. 6), Cicerós is referring only to the comitia
cúriáta when it met “auspiciórum causa” – it’s
possible that meetings were better attended when they
had different purposes. ItÂ’s not entirely clear what
Ciceró means by “auspiciórum causa”, but the context
suggests that he probably means the meetings of the
comitia cúriáta which passed the léx dé imperió,
confirming the magistrates in office at the beginning
of the year. If so, it wouldnÂ’t be surprising if no
one bothered to turn up – they had already voted for
the magistrates during the elections, and wouldnÂ’t
have had much interest in formally confirming them.
But sometimes meetings of the comitia cúriáta were of
more interest – for instance, when they met to vote on
an adoption by adrogátió, especially when the person
being adopted was a controversial figure (Clódius, for
example, or Octávius). And it is hard to imagine that
anyone who wanted to go would actually have been
barred from the comitia since, after all, the comitia
were by definition assemblies of the people. Moreover,
I personally am not at all certain that “per XXX
líctórés cónstitútí” has to mean “composed of 30
líctórés” at all. Now, let me emphasise that as far as
I know no professional scholar that I know of
challenges that translation, and IÂ’m very much out on
a limb, being a minimally competent Latinist. But my
dictionary says that “per XXX líctórés cónstitútí”
could also - and in fact would more normally – mean
“convened by the 30 líctórés”. I’m given some hope
that this is not a totally incompetent translation by
the fact that the admittedly rather old translation by
Yonge on Perseus does indeed translate “cónstitútí” as
“convened” and not “composed”.

It is also an open question whether the comitia caláta
which was involved in the creation of new pontificés,
if indeed it voted rather than passively witnessed,
had any choice between candidates, or simply ratified
the choice already made by the collégium pontificum.
It seems to me pretty unlikely. The power to choose
between candidates for civil magistracies was
transferred at a very early date to the other comitia,
if indeed it ever lay with the comitia cúriáta in the
first place. Moreover, had the pontificate been
bestowed in a contested public election we would
surely hear of at least one occasion on which the
election was of political significance and thus worth
the while of some historian or other to record. So if
the comitia had any choice at all, it was a choice
between “yes” and “no”, not between “A” and “B”.

But this is perhaps beside the point. The question is
whether the populus had any active role in the
creation of new pontificés. The fact is that the
comitia caláta did continue to be, at least in
principle, an assembly of the people capable of acting
on behalf of the whole populus. In cases of adrogátió
we know (from Gellius again) the words which the
presiding magistrate addressed to the comitia. After
proposing that so-and-so be adopted by so-and-so, he
said: “Haec ita, utí díxí, ita vós, Quirítés, rogó”
(“This thus, as I have said, I thus ask you,
Quirítés”). So clearly the comitia was in principle a
formal assembly of the Quirítés, and the vote
expressed their will. So if the jús pontificum was
indeed bestowed on new pontificés by the comitia
caláta in a vote, there was a constitutional principle
that required the pontificés to receive their power,
or at least confirmation of that power, from the
populus. What we simply do not know is whether the
comitia caláta voted on new pontificés or were merely
called together to be informed that a new pontifex had
been co-opted. Unless some new evidence appears, or
unless we have overlooked some old evidence, this is
going to remain an unsolved question.

We can take a step back from the details in the hope
that a look at broad trends will give us some light.
The problem is that the starting point is in the regal
period, and itÂ’s always hard to know how much we can
rely on the later traditions recorded by Romans of the
late republican and imperial periods. One common
theory is that the pontificés were originally the
kingÂ’s religious advisers. If this is so, and if the
common idea that the cónsulés (and later the other
magistrates) took over the royal power when the kings
were expelled is true also, we would expect to see the
pontificés become religious advisers to the
magistrates. This is part of what happened: just as
the senate gave the magistrates advice (cónsulta) on
whatever matters they brought before it, so the
magistrates – or the senate as a whole, acting under
the presidency of a magistrate – could ask the advice
(respónsa or décréta) of the collégium on religious
matters; and, just as the advice of the senate was not
binding unless the magistrate acted on it, so it was
up to the magistrate whether to act as the collégium
advised. If this were the whole story, we wouldnÂ’t
expect the pontificés to need any endorsement from the
populus, since they would not have any executive or
legislative power and would not be representing the
populus or acting on its behalf. The senate was not
elected or ratified by the populus, so nor need the
collégium be.

But that’s not the whole story. The collégium,
whatever its role under the kings, acquired some real
constitutional powers in the early republic. The
pontificés, particularly the pontifex máximus, and
also the réx sacrórum (who was a member of the
collégium), seem to have taken over some of the
religious powers and duties of the kings. The
pontificés were directly responsible for the
maintenance of the state cult, and also had some
responsibilities regarding family law insofar as the
sacra familiae were concerned. They performed
sacrifices on behalf of the populus; the pontifex
máximus supervised the vestals in their tending of the
sacred flame; and so on. So clearly in this sense the
pontificés were not simply advisors to the
magistrates: they were public officers in their own
right. Accordingly one would expect them, like the
magistrates, to receive at least the symbolic consent
of the populus. But on the other hand the power of the
collégium over law, particularly constitutional law,
in the very early republic was clearly considerable,
and it is certainly not impossible that the pontificés
in their role as guardians of the law were able to
exempt themselves from what we might regard as proper
constitutional practice. It is a very murky business,
and any conclusion is likely to be little more than a
guess.

What we can say is that – as Maior has pointed out –
the pontifex máximus was elected (from among the
pontificés) by the comitia tribúta (or at least by
half the tribes in the comitia, selected by lot) from
212 onward. Somewhat more than half a century later
there were calls for all the pontificés to be elected
– a reform eventually carried out by the léx Domitia.
In addition, the early and middle republican periods
saw a general seepage of religious knowledge away from
the collégium to the people in general: first,
knowledge of the légis áctiónés (the forms and
procedures of legal action), originally kept secret by
the collégium, was published; next, the calendar was
published, allowing people to know which days were
suitable for business of different kinds. In the early
republic the pontificés had been the guardians of the
state cult because they had exclusive possession of
the knowledge necessary to maintain that cult. By the
late republic most of that knowledge was in the public
realm and could be studied by anyone with the
inclination; accordingly the pontificés were now the
officers who put that knowledge into action on behalf
of the populus. This may partly explain the move from
co-option to election. The civil law had been public
knowledge since the early republic, and the civil
magistrates simply administered it on behalf of the
people; now the religious law was also public
knowledge, and the pontificés simply another type of
magistrate. Indeed, the imperial jurist Ulpian classed
religious law as a sub-set of public law.

Of course, even if we accept that there was a general
trend toward election, and that the léx Domitia was
not therefore simply an out-of-the-blue piece of
political opportunism, that doesnÂ’t necessarily mean
it was a good trend. There was also a trend toward the
collapse of the republic. But we can ask whether Nova
Róma at present is in its religious circumstances more
like the early or the late republic. In some respects
it is like the late republic: everything there is to
know about the réligió pública (apart from any
information which may be revealed by the gods to some
individual or other) is available in academic books
and is in principle available to all who look for it.
On the other hand, most of us know very little about
the réligió pública, so although the pontificés don’t
keep such knowledge secret, they in practice possess
far more of it between them than the rest of us have.
Moreover, even when the pontificés were elected during
the republic there was no doubt about the nature of
the job they were elected to do; there would have been
no question, for instance, of the comitia having to
choose between a candidate who advocated a certain
vision of the réligió pública and another who had a
different policy. In Nova Róma, however, much has to
be reconstructed, and there is the further question of
deliberate innovation. Different pontificés will
naturally have different views about how to do this,
and so voters would be involved indirectly in making
decisions about the policy of the collégium. Thus the
effect of election on the character of the réligió
pública would be much greater than it ever was in
antiquity at a time when the knowledge of the general
populus about the réligió is much lesser, and in which
– and this must be said – a substantial part of the
populus does not actually believe that terrible
disaster could result from a poor decision.

I donÂ’t believe the pressures which brought about the
léx Domitia in 105 B.C. are at all the same as those
which raise the possibility of the same reform today.
Today the question is one of the responsiveness and
sensitivity of the collégium toward the populus. This
simply was not a real concern in the late republic,
because there was nothing for the collégium to respond
or be sensitive about. There were no decisions to be
made about how to maintain and reconstruct the state
cult. It was just a question of choosing which of
three people would be performing certain pre-existing
rituals which would not differ according to who was
performing them. Apart from the trend IÂ’ve suggested
above concerning the demystification of the réligió
pública and the corresponding increase in similarity
between pontificés and any other civil magistrates,
there was a pressure throughout the republic for more
elected positions to be made available as the
competition for office became fiercer and the number
of competitors who felt entitled to prestigious
offices increased. The creation of a block of new
elected positions by the opening of pontificates for
election was an obvious move. There was also a general
politicization of the réligió pública as a result of
the increased intensity of political competition,
which prompted the competitors to search for new
methods to obstruct and overrule their opponents – the
many and complicated formalities and rules of the
state cult offered plenty of opportunities. The
pressures we see today are quite different. Nova Róma
began its life with an unhistorically politicized
collégium. It has unhistorical legislative powers. It
has unhistorical political influence (because it can
always claim that its particular bailiwick – the
réligió – is a more important part of Nova Róma than
any other and that therefore, by implication, it is
the most important part of the constitution). It has
arrogated to itself unhistorical judicial powers. Its
area of responsibility is unhistorically politicized
by the presence of a substantial body of non-believers
in the populus, by the need to make policy-decisions
about the reconstruction of the réligió, and by the
centrality of the réligió to the purpose of the Nova
Róma project as often presented. These are not
criticisms of the collégium, they are simply facts.
The extremely unhistorical position and powers of the
collégium create an extremely unhistorical set of
pressures. It is, partly by necessity, partly by the
choice of the designers of the constitution, and
partly by its own choice a far more politically
important, powerful, and controversial body than it
ever was in the old republic. It is profoundly
unsurprising that there should be pressure for it to
be subjected to some form of political accountability
given its great political importance and power. It is
equally unsurprising and understandable that it should
be resistant to such pressure. But it seems inevitable
that, if the causes of the pressures remain, the
pressures will remain, and will most likely grow. The
alternative is to go back to the source and remove the
causes of the pressures by bringing the collégium
closer to its historical powers, functions, and
characteristics. This cannot be fully achieved,
because the nature of its constituency is profoundly
different from that of the old republican populus, but
certainly some progress can be made.

Apologies for detaining you for so long; these are
complicated issues, and it would be hard to do them
justice with greater brevity.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28985 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: confusion
A. Apollonius Cordus Jústae Semproniae Jústínae
omnibusque sal.

> I applied for citizenship in Nova Roma I received an
> e-mail from the censores that my name was incorrect.
> I replied to the e-mail giving them my corrected
> name as Iusta Sempronia Iustina. I received a notice
> of non delivery of my message. Today I accessed the
> Files section of the site and tried to access two
> messages that were of interest to me. One was
> concerning the Virtues and the other the Academia. I
> don't know who else to turn to in my dilemma. I
> didn't want to post this on the list as I have not
> yet received my citizenship.

ItÂ’s perfectly all right to post to this list without
being a citizen.

IÂ’m not sure what has caused your message to the
cénsórés to be returned undelivered, but I suggest you
try again. Did you use the web-form? If not, try it;
itÂ’s at:

http://www.novaroma.org/contact.php?to=censores

The cénsórés may be busy, and you shouldn’t worry if
things take a little while; I presume you donÂ’t have a
deadlie for becoming a citizen!

On a side note, your praenómen is still not really a
traditional one, at least in my own opinion. Women
didn’t historically have praenómina, so there is some
debate in Nova Róma about which praenómina women
should be allowed to have, but my own view is that
they ought to confine themselves to the same small
selection of praenómina as men traditionally
possessed. Since no one but your close relatives and
very, very close friends will ever call you by your
praenómen on its own (if they do, they are being rude,
probably unintentionally), having a traditional
praenómen would do you no harm. But the cénsórés are,
at least for now, rather more lenient than I would be
in their position, so I expect they will probably find
your praenómen acceptable.

If you want to talk more about names, or to ask about
anything you think I might be able to help you with,
please write to me privately at

a_apollonius_cordus AT yahoo DOT co DOT uk

By the way, you have chosen a splendid géns. I would
have joined it myself had there not been some problems
with the process (now well and truly ironed out, I
assure you), so I consider myself something like a
cousin. Good luck with your application.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28986 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Quintus Cassius Brutus writes:

"The reality is sticking to historical accuracy is in no way discrimination
nor subjugation. It neither violates the letter of the law nor threatens Nova
Roma's status as a NPO. I made clear what the historical role of women was in
the Religio. They did indeed have a role in the Religio."

Marcus Cassius Julianus respondit:
You're right. It is neither discrimination or subjugation. It is instead
merely unequal; and therefore unfair. The role of women in the Religio was
second-class.

Barring a full half of our population from the two top levels of the Religio
can be portrayed as historical, but not as being equitable. It denies 50% of
our population from being considered for administration by merit,
dedication, service, or ability. It means that all women participating in the Religio
must follow the direction of not one but two levels of all-male officers -
with no recourse but to obey any decisions from 'above' which might be unfair,
unfit, or just plain stupid.

In short, it constitutes religious administration without representation.
While that is totally historical, it is not fair.

Historical Roman politics were not fair either. There were many Citizens who
were barred forever from voting or holding political office no matter what
they might possibly do. Nova Roma has changed that - everyone here has the
opportunity to be a voting Citizen and to hold office if they wish to. This
unhistorical change was nothing less than the *minimum* we had to do in order to
create a system that would truly function in the modern world. People don't
tend to join and participate in things where they (and their entire sex) are
doomed to powerless second-class status. It is no different with the Religio.

Answer me this, Brutus. Can you give me *any* reason why women should be
barred from being Pontifices and Flamens besides "it is historical?" Can you
tell me a single, rational reason why only men are fit for these positions? Do
you perhaps simply believe that the Gods have decreed that men are better
than women? Or that the Gods have decreed that only men are suited for
leadership and administration?

The problem with Nova Roma is that we aren't actually ancient Romans. We've
all had two thousand years of knowledge to draw from which proves that women
can be just as capable leaders and administrators as men can be. Leadership
depends on the person's skills, not their genitalia.

The rationale that "it must be done because it is historical" can't put the
genie back in the box. In two millennia we've learned more things than the
Romans knew. We may appreciate that much of what they did had huge merit and
deserves to live again - but that does not mean we must accept everything they
did without rational question and practical consideration.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus




The Nova Religio Romana list: an "unofficial" Religio Romana group for the
discussion of modern Religio topics, Imperial religion, Mystery Religions,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28987 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dé comitiís calátís
Salvete A. Apollonius Cordus et Omnes:

(text snipped for brevity)

A long post, but a darned good read. I am not sure I fully adopt
every single element, but it is certainly well articulated, with
many points covered. Am academically fair synopsis of the
relationship between the CP and the populus of antiquita during the
time of the Lex Domitia (acknowledging an interruption of same by
the Dictator Sulla), with some equally good academic and common
sense projections on how this relates to our current situation in NR.

I have been doing some reading myself, concentrating on these
elements.

I will likely be reading this post over again...to think on a few
things you've presented. What I think makes for a good post.

Two thumbs up,
Pompeia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28988 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!
Salve

The old Roman republic was not murdered by Augustus, Divine or otherwise, it died of a self infected wound!!!

it committed suicide.

I am not a monarchist but Augustus saved the best of Rome and delayed the fall of her civilization for almost another 1/2 millennium.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Maior
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:09 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Dies Natalis of Divvs Avgvstvs soon!


Mehercule! Iuli Iuliane;
this good pleb and republican is not going to pray to the destoyer
of our liberty;-)
bene vale
M.Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propratrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Qvirites! September 23rd marks the birthday of
> the Divine Augustus! Traditionally, libations to His
> Genius are in order for the day. Valete! Frater Gaivs
> Ivlivs Ivlianvs, Flamen Floralis, PGI
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28989 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Convened
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, augur Gaius Modius Athanasius has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia.
The augury being favorable, I call the Comitia Centuriata for the
purpose of voting on amendments to our Constitution. Since this
meeting of the Comitia Centuriata is only considering legislation,
the voting will not be sequential as it would be for election of a
magistrate. Instead, all centuries shall vote together.

Lex Equitia de Constitutionis Corregendis

The first item is simply the current Constitution, with its spelling,
grammar, and orthography corrected to remove accumulated errors. It
contains all amendments passed to date. Due to its length, the text
is posted at http://village.flashnet.it/~ua01823/Codex/Comparison-table.html
(courtesy of D. Constantinus Fuscus, who kindly made the comparison
page) rather than being given here. On that page the current text of
the Constitution is in the column on the left, and the text as corrected
on the right. No changes in the meaning of the document have been
included. Changes to the text of the constitution require the approval
of the Comitia Centuriata and the ratification of the Senate even in
these cases of simple grammatical correction. The Cista will include
the complete text of the Constitution as corrected, under the title
Lex Equitia de Constitutionis Corregendis.

The second item presented will provide Constitutional agreement for
the complimentary family law being presented in the Comitia Populi
Tributa.

Lex Equitia de Gentibus

I. Article II.D of the constitution is hereby amended to read:

"D. Gentes, Domus, and Familiae. Familiae (households) being the
backbone of Roman society, the prerogatives and responsibilities of the
familia are of primary importance to Nova Roma. Except where
specifically dealt with in this constitution and the law, each familia
shall have the right to determine its own course of action and parents
shall have the undisputed right and responsibility to see to the
education and raising of their children.
1. Each gens (clan) shall be registered with the censors, who
will maintain records of gens membership and other relevant information.
2. No two gentes may have the same nomen. The censors shall be
responsible for ensuring this rule is observed.
3. Each gens shall consist of a minimum of one domus (lineage).
4. No two domus within a gens may have the same cognomen
(surname). The censors shall be responsible for ensuring this rule is
observed.
5. Each familia shall have a paterfamilias and / or materfamilias
who shall act as the leader(s) of the family and speak for it when
necessary. The holder(s) of this position must be registered as such
with the censors. The paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may, at his,
her, or their discretion, expel members of his, her, or their familia,
accept new members into it by adoption, or allow members to form new
familiae belonging to the same order.
a. The paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may, at his, her,
or their discretion, exercise the rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B
of this Constitution on behalf of impuberes in his, her, or their
familia, with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph II.B.3.) and
the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph II.B.8.)."

[End text of Lex Equitia de Gentibus]


Schedule for the Contio and vote:

22 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio begins at dawn Roma time
23 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
24 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
25 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
26 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
27 Septembris (dies comitialis) At dawn (06:00) Roma time contio ends
and voting begins
28 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
29 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
30 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
1 Octobris (dies nefastus) Voting suspended at 00:01 Roma time
2 Octobris (dies fastus) Voting suspended
3 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting resumes at 00:01 Roma time
4 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
5 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting ends at dusk (18:00) Roma time


Please note that the time in Roma is Central European Time (CET), which
is six hours later than Eastern Standard Time in the United States, and
one hour later than Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28990 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Comitia Populi Tributa Convened
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, augur Gaius Modius Athanasius has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia.
The augury being favorable, I call the Comitia Populi Tributa for the
purpose of voting on the following laws.


LEX EQVITIA DE TIROCINIO CIVIVM NOVORVM


I. A. Vt pater aut materfamilias personam gentilem tollat et magistratus
proprios quibus praestat cives in album referre de hac approbatione
certiores faciat, civitas Novae Romae ilico coepit.

I. A. Nova Roman citizenship begins at the instant a pater or
materfamilias recognizes a person as a member of his or her Nova
Roman familia and informs the appropriate Nova Roman
magistrates in charge of citizen registration of this recognition.

B. Ad familias nuper creatas quarum patres vel matresfamiliarum
cives novi sunt, civitatem simul recipientes ac familias
constituentes
in album referentesque, censoribus probantibus civitas incipit.

B. In the case of newly-created familiae whose patres or
matresfamiliarum are new citizens receiving citizenship at the same
time as the familiae are being formed and registered, citizenship
begins with the approval of the Censors.

II. A Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII, omnes cives novi Novae Romae
tirocinio ut minimum nonaginta dierum subicientur, per quod eis iura
publica non licebit; nec suffragium ferant, nec aliquem honorem
publicum
petant.

II. Beginning Kalendis Ianuarias, MMDCCLVIII, all new citizens of Nova
Roma shall be subject to a probationary period of at least 90 days,
during which they will not be allowed the 'iura publica', the right
to vote and to stand for any public office.

III. A. Post nonaginta dies, cum civis novus periculum probationis
simplicis de rebus magni momenti civitati Novae Romae,
rudimentisque historiae, religionis, linguae, consuetudinum
civiliumque Romanorum subeat et approbetur, tirocinium conficiet.

III. A. The probationary period will end when 90 days have passed and the
new citizen has taken and passed a simple examination covering
elementary matters of Nova Roman citizenship and basic Roman
history, religion, language, and social practices.

B. Petitore roganti, haec probatio in promptu erit versa in omnes
linguas quibus interpretes periti Novae Romae adsunt.

B. This examination shall be made available, upon request of the
applicant, in any of the languages for which Nova Roma has
qualified translators.

C. Probatio a censoribus vel magistratibus aliis designatis a
censoribus excoletur, et quotannis a Senatu recensebitur.

C. The examination will be developed by the Censors or such other
magistrates as the Censors may designate, and shall be reviewed
annually by the Senate.

D. Exercitia a censoribus vel talibus aliis e lege praescriptis
notabitur.

D. The examination will be graded by the Censors or by such other
persons as may be directed by law.


IV. A. In rebus raris, haec necessaria omnino vel partim a Senatu
remittentur.

IV. A. These requirements may be wholly or partially waived by the
Senate in exceptional circumstances.

B. Nullo pacto circumscribantur; exempla immunitatum talium autem
includant:

B. Examples of such exceptions would include, but not be limited to:

1. Petitores qui cives peregrini municipi vel oppidi sex menses
fuerunt.

1. Applicants who have been peregrine citizens of a municipium
or oppidum for 6 months.

2. Petitores qui cives peregrini municipi vel oppidi qui
duumviri, aediles, vel magistratus suffragiis creati
delecti
sunt.

2. Applicants who are peregrine citizens of municipia or oppida
who have been elected to an elective office such as duumvir
or aedilis.

3. Petitores a magistratu curuli provinciae praesidenteve
commendantur.

3. applicants sponsored by a curule magistrate, including
provincial governors.

4. Petitores qui potestates raras academicas professionisve
habent.

4. Applicants with exceptional academic and professional
qualifications.

V. A. Civibus impuberibus qui post Kalendas Ianuarias MMDCCLVIII
participes Novae Romae erunt et qui nondum duodeviginti annos
nati sunt periculum probationis subeant usque ad nonaginta dies
ante diem natale duodevicesimum suum licet.

V. A. Minor citizens who join Nova Roma after Kalendis Ianuarias,
MMDCCLVII and who have not yet reached 18 years of age may take
the examination up to 90 days before their 18th birthday.

B. Periculo probationis praemature subeundo et superando non liceat
suffragia ferant aut honores petant ante diem natalem suum
duodevicesimum.

B. Taking and passing the examination early will not entitle them to
vote or stand for office before their 18th birthday.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA DE TIROCINIO CIVIVM NOVORVM]

This next law corrects an overly punitive provision of an old law which
has recently proven damaging to the health of our Republic by needlessly
penalizing citizens who have contributed greatly to Nova Roma. I don't
yet have the Latin translation of this law available, but the English
text is provided for voter review.


LEX EQUITIA DE CIVITATE EIURANDA

I. The Lex Cornelia et Maria de civitate eiuranda is hereby amended as
follows:

A. Section III is hereby annulled.

B. Section V is hereby altered to read as follows:

1. The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire
citizenship, must apply in the same fashion as any other person desirous
of citizenship would, with the exception that he/she is directed to
state in his/her application the reasons behind his/her resignation and
decision to reverse the resignation and come back. His/her Roman name
may be resumed if no other citizen of Nova Roma has taken it up in
his/her absence.

2. As offices are de facto resigned when Citizenship is
resigned, no public offices held at the time of resignation
automatically carry over to the returning citizen, with the exception of
any religious title and corresponding century points that may be
specified by the Collegium Pontificum.

3. Any titles, honors and effects of past offices, or century
points carry over to the returning citizen only after a period of six
months, with the exception of any religious title and corresponding
century points that may be specified by the Collegium Pontificum.

4. Senatorial status may be resumed at the discretion of both
the Senate and of the censores collegially.

5. Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion
of the pater or materfamilias.

C. Section VI is hereby altered to read as follows:

1. If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and
resigns a second time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from
reinstatement.

II. Any Citizen who has, in the past, fallen under the effect of the Lex
Cornelia et Maria de civitate eiuranda, shall be treated as being under
the effect of these amendments.

III. The amended Lex Cornelia et Maria de civitate eiuranda shall be
held to apply to any individual who has resigned their Citizenship since
the founding of the Republic on March 1, 1998 CE, regardless of whether
or not it had or had not been passed prior to that time.

[End text of LEX EQUITIA DE CIVITATE EIURANDA]

The next law was already presented in contio, but due to an error
in the Cista the populous was not able to vote on it during the
last voting interval. Therefore I present it again. Please note
that it repeals three existing laws, replacing them all with this
one. Again, the Latin text is not yet available, but I provide
the English text for your review.


LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS

Preamble: In Roma Antiqua the Vigintisexviri - literally 'the twenty six
men' - were minor magistrates who handled much of the routine
administrative business of Rome. In Nova Roma we preserve the title
VIGINTISEXVIRI for the minor magistracies, without requiring twenty six,
and without restricting these magistracies to men.

I. The Lex Vedia Vigintisexviri, Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus, and Lex
Equitia de Mutandis Appellationibus Duorum Magistratuum Minorum are
hereby repealed. All Nova Roman laws, decrees, and edicts which make
reference to magistrates of the Vigintisexviri are revised to use the
titles defined below.

II. In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma, the following
minor magistracies are defined within the category of Vigintisexviri.

A. Magister Aranearius -- Webmaster. The magister aranearius shall
be responsible for the design maintenance and any alteration of the
official web site(s) sponsored by the State. The magister aranearius
shall solicit input from the other magistrates and institutions of Noa
Roma regarding content for the web site and shall have the authority
to appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary.

B. Editor Commentariorum -- Editor of the Written News. The editor
commentariorum shall be responsible for the production, publication, and
distribution of the official publications sponsored by the State. The
editor commentariorum shall have the authority to appoint his own
scribae, should he deem it necessary.

C. Rogatores -- Voter Registration Officials.

i. Until Kalendas Ianuarias MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005) four
rogatores shall be responsible for the administration of elections and
the recording of votes among the curia. Each rogator shall have the
authority to appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary. The
lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of, four
rogatores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
postpone a particular election, and the rogatores may divide their
duties amongst themselves as they see fit and practical. Since they,
by definition, are privy to the details of the election process, the
rogatores may not run for any elective office while they serve in office
as Rogatores.

ii. Beginning on Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005),
two rogatores shall be elected to act as subordinate magistrates to the
Censores, responsible for registering qualified voters, issuing voter
codes, and administering the routine citizenship application process.
During intervals when no Censores are serving in office, the rogatores
may carry out the routine maintenance of the Album Civium and the Album
Gentium in concert with the magister aranearius. Each rogator shall
have the authority to appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary.

D. Diribitores -- Vote Counters. Beginning on Kalendis Ianuariis
MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005), up to four diribitores shall be responsible for
the counting of votes among the curia. The lack of a full complement of,
or the active participation of, four diribitores shall not in and of
itself be sufficient to invalidate or postpone a particular election,
and the diribitores may divide their duties among themselves as they
see fit and practical with the approval of the Custodes. Since
they, by definition, are privy to the details of the election process,
the diribitores may not run for any elective office while they serve in
office as Diribitores. Diribitores shall only count votes, and shall
not engage in any tie-breaking.

E. Custodes -- Election Judges. Beginning on Kalendis
Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII (1 Jan 2005), two custodes shall be responsible for
certifying the tally of votes in elections as reported to them by the
Diribitores, breaking any ties among the centuries and tribes, and
providing the results of elections by centuries or tribes to the
presiding magistrates of the elections. Since they, by definition, are
privy to the details of the election process, the custodes may not run
for any elective office while they serve in office as Custodes. The
lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of, both
custodes shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
postpone a particular election. Custodes may, if they choose, assist
the Diribitores in the vote counting process. In the event that there
are no Diribitores the Custodes shall assume the duties of Diribitores
until sufficient Diribitores have been elected.

III. As minor magistrates, all Vigintisexviri shall possess the Ius
Edicendi, the right to publish edicta within the scope of their
magisterial duties.

IV. All Vigintisexviri shall be elected by the Comitia Populi Tributa
during the annual elections. The normal term of office for the
Vigintixesviri shall be one year. Suffectus (replacement)
Vigintisexviri magistrates elected to replace magistrates who are unable
to continue in office shall serve until the end of the year in which
they are elected.

V. If any of the minor magistracies of the Vigintisexviri become vacant
after the Ides of Septembris in a given year, the Senate may appoint a
suffectus to fill that magistracy for the remainder of the year in lieu
of holding an election in the Comitia Populi Tributa.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS]

The fourth law offered is a comprehensive Family Law lex which
implements a number of practices from Roma Antiqua within Nova
Roma. This lex is the compliment of the constitutional amendment
offered in the Comitia Centuriata as the Lex Equitia de Gentibus.

LEX EQUITIA DE FAMILIA


I. Legal Status
a. Every citizen is either sui iuris (in his own power) or alieni
iuris (in another's power).
b. Any citizen who is a paterfamilias (father of the household) or a
materfamilias (mother of the household) is sui iuris; any citizen who is
sui iuris is a paterfamilias or materfamilias.
c. Any citizen who is a filiusfamilias (son in power) or a
filiafamilias (daughter in power) is in the patria potestas (hereafter
'potestas') of his or her paterfamilias and / or materfamilias.
d. A wife who is married cum manu is in the manus of her husband; if
her husband is a filiusfamilias she is also in the potestas of her
husband's paterfamilias and / or materfamilias. If her husband is sui
iuris, he is her paterfamilias; if her husband is alieni iuris, his
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias is / are her paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias.
e. Any citizen who is in potestas or in manus is alieni iuris.

II. Familiae
a. A familia (household) consists of a paterfamilias and everyone
who is in his potestas or manus; or a materfamilias and everyone who is
in her potestas; or a paterfamilias and a materfamilias together in a
free marriage and everyone who is in their shared potestas.
b. Within this law, the phrase 'paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias' means the paterfamilias where he has sole potestas over
his familia, or the materfamilias where she has sole potestas over her
familia, or both heads of household where they share potestas over their
familia.
c. Within this law, the phrase 'paterfamilias or materfamilias'
means the paterfamilias where he has sole potestas over his familia, or
the materfamilias where she has sole potestas over her familia, or
either one of the heads of household where they share potestas over
their familia.
d. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias hold(s) potestas over his,
her, or their legal descendants (except those who have been
emancipated, married cum manu into another familia, or adopted into
another familia) and the wives cum manu of those legal descendants.
e. A male citizen who is sui iuris is the paterfamilias of all those
in his potestas or manus; a female citizen who is sui iuris is the
materfamilias of all those in her potestas.
f. Potestas cannot be shared except by two citizens who are married
to one another in a free marriage and are both sui iuris. Where two or
more citizens who are sui iuris but are not married to one another in a
free marriage have a claim under this law to potestas over another
citizen, the praetores may decide the matter, giving potestas to
whichever party is best able to fulfill the duties and exercise the
rights of a paterfamilias or materfamilias towards the person concerned.
g. For the purpose of family law, and with regard to their familia,
a sui iuris citizen couple in a free marriage who share potestas are
treated as a single legal person, and any action taken by one of them by
virtue of their potestas is considered a join action by both together.
For all other purposes each remains individually
answerable at law for his or her own actions.

III. Rights & Duties of Patria Potestas & Manus
a. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may make legal contracts and
transactions, and acquire, hold, and dispose of property and contractual
rights, benefits, and obligations, on behalf of his or her familia or
its individual members.
b. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may give or withold specific or
general consent for members of his or her familia to make legal
contracts or transactions, or acquire or dispose of property or
contractual rights, benefits, or obligations.
c. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may regulate the conduct of
members of his or her familia by means of rewards and punishments. No
officer or organ of the state shall interfere either to assist or to
prevent the imposition of punishment by a paterfamilias or materfamilias
upon a member of his or her familia.
d. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias hold(s) responsibility for
the upbringing, education, good conduct, and well-being of those in his,
her, or their potestas or manus.

IV. Legal Capacity
a. A citizen who is alieni iuris has no legal capacity to make or
witness any legal contract or transaction, or to acquire or dispose of
property or contractual rights, benefits, or obligations, except with
the explicit consent (whether specific or general) of his or her
paterfamilias or materfamilias.
b. A citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no
legal capacity to make or witness any legal contract or transaction, or
to acquire or dispose of property or contractual rights, benefits, or
obligations, except through his or her tutor or tutrix.
c. Anyone who, having entered into such a contract or transaction,
later discovers that the other party was at the time alieni iuris and
acting without the necessary consent, has 60 days to petition the
praetores for the restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo
ante; if he or she does not, it is considered that he or she
has reaffirmed that contract or transaction as between himself or
herself and the paterfamilias and / or materfamilias of the original
party.
d. Any paterfamilias or materfamilias who discovers that anyone in
his or her potestas or manus has entered into such a contract or
transaction without the necessary consent has 60 days to petition the
praetores for the restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo
ante; if he or she does not, it is considered that he or she has
reaffirmed the contract or transaction as between himself or herself and
the other party.
e. Anyone who, having entered into such a contract or transaction,
later discovers that the other party was at the time sui iuris but below
the age of 18 and not acting through his or her tutor or tutrix, has 60
days to petition the praetores for the restoration, as nearly as
possible, of the status quo ante; if he or she does not, it is
considered that he or she has reaffirmed that contract or transaction.
f. Any tutor or tutrix who discovers that his or her pupillus or
pupilla has entered into such a contract or transaction without acting
through him or her has 60 days to petition the praetores for the
restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo ante; if he or she
does not, it is considered that he or she has reaffirmed the contract or
transaction.

V. Legal Action
a. A citizen who is alieni iuris may not be party to legal action
except where explicitly provided by lex, decretum, edictum, or
senatusconsultum.
b. If a citizen who is alieni iuris commits an offence, his or her
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias are liable for it; if, in such a
case, the paterfamilias' and / or materfamilias' failure to prevent the
commission of the offence was due to his or her unavoidable physical
absence, the praetor may, at his or her discretion, include in the
formula an exceptio (defence) or vis maior (insurmountable
necessity).
c. If anyone commits an offence against or incurs a legal obligation
to a citizen who is alieni iuris, the latter's paterfamilias or
materfamilias may take legal action on his or her
behalf.
d. A tutor or tutrix may represent and act on behalf of his or her
pupillus or pupilla in legal matters, but is not personally liable for
the offences of the pupillus or pupilla.
e. No one shall be held legally liable for any offence except one
who was legally liable at the time.

VI. Changes In Legal Status
a. A filiusfamilias or filiafamilias becomes sui iuris if he or she
is emancipated.
b. A filiusfamilias or filiafamilias becomes sui iuris if he or she
has no legal ascendant who is a citizen.
c. A wife cum manu becomes sui iuris if her marriage is dissolved.
d. A wife cum manu becomes sui iuris if her husband dies or loses
his citizenship.
e. A citizen who is alieni iuris becomes sui iuris if he or she is a
flamen, rex sacrorum, a pontifex, or a civil magistrate.
f. A paterfamilias or materfamilias becomes alieni iuris if he or
she is adopted by adrogatio.
g. A matefamilias becomes alieni iuris is she is married cum manu.

VII. Marriage
a. If two people live together with affectio maritalis (marital
affection), i.e., regarding themselves as married to one another, their
relationship is a free marriage.
b. If a male and a female citizen live together for a full year with
affectio maritalis without the woman being absent from their home for
three or more nights in a row, their relationship is a marriage cum manu
contracted by usus.
c. If a male and a female citizen undergo the ceremony of coemptio
in the presence of five witnesses who have the capacity to witness legal
transactions, their relationship is a marriage cum manu contracted by
coemptio.
d. If a male and a female citizen of whom one is a patrician or a
member of the collegium pontificium undergo the ceremony of confarreatio
in the presence of the pontifex maximus, their relationship is a
marriage cum manu contracted by confarreatio.
e. If two people are married to one another under the law of the
state in which they live but meet none of the criteria set out in VII.a,
b, c, or d, their relationship is a free marriage.
f. If a materfamilias marries cum manu, those in her potestas are
transferred to the potestas of her husband.

VIII. Dissolution Of Marriage
a. If a person in a free marriage notifies his or her spouse in
writing that he or she wishes the marriage to end, that marriage is
dissolved. If, however, both spouses regain affectio maritalis within a
year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as if there had been no
dissolution.
b. If a person in a free marriage contracts a new marriage in any of
the ways set out in VII, the former marriage is dissolved.
c. If a husband married cum manu by coemptio or by usus emancipates
his wife, the marriage is dissolved.
d. If a couple married cum manu by confarreatio undergoes the
ceremony of diffareatio, the marriage is dissolved.

IX. Prohibited Marriages
a. No marriage may exist if either party is younger than 18 years.
b. No marriage may exist between a citizen and his or her legal or
biological ascendant or descendant.
c. No marriage may exist between a citizen and his or her legal or
biological collateral relative if either party is fewer
than two degrees removed from their common ascendant; except that a
marriage between adoptive collateral relatives may exist if at least one
party is sui iuris.
d. No marriage may exist between a citizen and the former spouse of
his or her legal or biological ascendant or descendant, or between a
citizens and the legal or biological ascendant or descendant of his or
her former spouse.

X. Emancipation
a. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may emancipate a person
(thus releasing him or her from potestas or manus) provided that he,
she, or they notify the praetores of the emancipation, and provided that
five witnesses who have the capacity to witness legal transactions also
notify the praetores that they bear witness.
b. A citizen who is alieni iuris and whose paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias refuses(s) to emancipate him or her may petition the
praetores; if the praetores, after consulting with the paterfamilias and
/ or materfamilias, consider the refusal unreasonable, they may declare
the petitioner sui iuris.

XI. Adoption
a. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may adopt by adrogatio
another citizen who is sui iuris provided that the adoptive parent(s) is
/ are at least 18 years older than the adopted child, and provided that
the adoptive parents(s) and the adopted child all notify the pontifex
maximus of their consent, and provided that the pontifex maximus
consents, and provided that the comitia curiata bears witness (without
right of refusal).
b. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may adopt by adoptio
another citizen who is alieni iuris provided that the adoptive parent(s)
is / are at least 18 years older than the adopted child, and provided
that the adoptive paterfamilias and / or materfamilias and the former
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias all notify the praetores of their
consent, and provided that five witnesses who have the capacity to
witness legal transactions also notify the praetores that they bear witness.
c. A citizen adopted by adrogatio becomes the legal child of the
adoptive parent(s) and passes into his, her, or their potestas, and
ceases to be the legal child relative of his or her former relatives
except those in his or her potestas or manus; anyone in the potestas or
manus of the adopted child becomes the legal descendant of the adoptive
parent(s) in whatever relationship is appropriate to the new
relationship between the adopted child and the adoptive parent(s),
and passes into the potestas of the adoptive parent(s).
d. A citizen adopted by adoptio becomes the legal child of the
adoptive parent(s) and ceases to be the legal relative of his or her
former relatives, and passes from the potestas of his or her former
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias into the potestas of the adoptive
parent(s).
e. A citizen adopted by adrogatio or by adoptio takes the name of
his or her adoptive father (or, if there is no adoptive father, the name
of his or her adoptive mother), adjusted to his or her gender as
appropriate, and adds an agnomen formed from his or her former nomen
with the ending -ianus or -iana (e.g., Salix becomes Salicianus, Equitia
becomes Equitiana). Any other relatives transferred from one familia to
another by adrogatio also change their names in the same way.

XII. Tutela
a. Any citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 must have
a tutor or tutrix (guardian); a citizen who has a tutor is referred to
as a pupillus or pupilla.
b. If a citizen is emancipated by his or her paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias, his or her former paterfamilas and / or materfamilias is
/ are his or her tutor, tutrix, or tutores, unless
during the emancipation process it is explicitly stated in the
notification to the praetores and explicitly witnessed by all the
witnesses that one of the witnesses it to be tutor instead.
c. If a citizen is emancipated by the praetores, the praetores must
appoint a tutor or tutrix.
d. If a citizen becomes sui iuris on the death of his or her
paterfamilias or materfamilias, and if in a valid will the deceased has
nominated an eligible citizen as tutor or tutrix, the nominated citizen
has 30 days from the time when the will takes effect to accept the
nomination; if he or she does not, he or she is considered to have refused.
e. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no
tutor under XII.b, XII.c, or XII.d, his or her nearest eligible legal
relative is tutor or tutrix, without right of refusal; if several
eligible legal relatives are equally closely related, they are joint
tutores.
f. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no
tutor under XII.b, XII.c, XII.d, or XII.e, the praetores may appoint a
consenting eligible citizen to be tutor or tutrix.
g. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has need
of a temporary tutor or tutrix (for instance while waiting for a tutor
nominated in a will to accept, or to take legal action on behalf of the
pupillus or pupilla against the latter's regular tutor or tutrix), the
praetores may appoint a consenting eligible citizen to be tutor or
tutrix for a specified period or until a specified condition be fulfilled.
h. To be eligible to be a tutor or tutrix a person must be a full
citizen over the age of 18, sui iuris, and not prohibited from doing so
by a court judgement of the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.
i. A tutor or tutrix is may make legal contracts or transactions,
and acquire, hold, and dispose of property and contractual rights,
benefits, and obligations, on behalf of his or her pupillus or pupilla,
but only in such a way as to conserve or increase the property and
contractual rights and benefits of his or her pupillus or pupilla.
k. A tutor or tutrix must make arrangements and, if necessary,
financial provision for his or her pupillus' or pupilla's education and
upbringing.
l. When a pupillus or pupilla reaches the age of 18 his or her tutor
or tutrix is relieved or his or her duties and must surrender to the
pupillus or pupilla any property or contractual rights, benefits, or
obligations acquired or held on his or her behalf.
m. If a pupillus or pupilla enters the potestas of another citizen,
his or her tutor is relieved of his or her duties and must surrender to
the new paterfamilias and / or materfamilias any property or contractual
rights, benefits, or obligations acquired or held on behalf of the
pupillus or pupilla.

XIII. Succession
a. Any citizen who is sui iuris and aged 18 or above, and who is not
prohibited from doing so by a court judgement or the ruling of a
magistrate with imperium, may make a legal will.
b. A will is invalid unless witnessed by five citizens who have the
capacity to witness legal transactions, and unless the testator was of
sound mind at the time when the will was written, and unless the will
clearly names as heir at least one citizen who is sui iuris (or becomes
sui iuris on the testator's death) and not prohibited from acting as
heir by a court judgement or the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.
c. A citizen named as heir in a valid will may refuse up to 30 days
after discovering that he or she has been named as heir. The will may
name another eligible citizen as secondary heir in case the primary heir
refuses, and so on indefinitely. If no heir so named accepts, the will
is invalid. A citizen who becomes sui iuris as a result of the death of
the deceased may not refuse the inheritance.
d. If a paterfamilias or materfamilias dies without leaving a valid
will, any citizens who become sui iuris as a result of the death become
heirs without right of refusal; if no citizens become sui iuris as a
result of the death, the nearest eligible legal relative(s) become(s)
heir(s), each having the right to refuse up to 30 days after discovering
that he or she is heir; if there are no eligible legal relatives
prepared to accept the inheritance, the inhertiance passes to the g ens
of the deceased and may be disposed of by agreement of the
patresfamilias and matresfamilias of the gens.
e. If more than one person is heir and the will, if there is one,
does not state in what proportions they are to share the inheritance,
the inheritance is shared equally; except that if there is no valid will
and the heirs are those who have become sui iuris as a result of the
death, stirpitial representation applies as in ancient law. If one
person who is named co-heir in a will refuses the inheritance, hir or
her share goes to the other heirs in proportion to their existing shares.
f. The heir(s) inherit(s) any property and contractual rights,
benefits, and obligations which were held by the deceased and within the
jurisdiction of Nova Roma, and must put into effect the instructions
given by the deceased in any valid will except any instructions which
are illegal, immoral, or impossible; and must assume responsibility for
the familial sacra of the deceased.
g. Century points may be inherited, or disposed of in a will.

XIV. Remedies
a. Any citizen who has the legal capacity to take legal action may
bring an action under the lex Salicia iudiciaria, or whatever lex shall
supersede it, against a paterfamilias and / or materfamilias for
seriously and consistently failing in his, her, or their duties to his,
her, or their familias or a particular member of it. The praetor shall
direct in his or her formula that if the reus, rea, or rei be found
guilty his, her, or their familia or a particular member of it be
removed from his, her, or their potestas or manus and, if necessary,
placed under the tutela of a tutor or tutrix. The praetor may include
other penalties at his or her discretion.
b. Any citizen who who has the legal capacity to take legal action
may bring an action under the lex Salicia iuridiciaria, or whatever lex
shall supersede it, against a tutor or tutrix for failing in his or her
duties to his or her pupillus or pupilla. A pupillus or pupilla may
petition the praetores to appoint a temporary tutor or tutrix to bring
such an action on his or her behalf. The praetor shall direct in his or
her formula that if the reus be found guilty his pupillus or pupilla be
removed from his or her tutela and placed under the tutela of another
tutor or tutrix. The praetor may require the reus or rea to make
restitution for any avoidable diminution of the property or contractual
rights or benefits of the pupillus or pupilla and to meet personally any
contractual obligations incurred by the tutor or tutrix on behalf of the
pupillus or pupilla, and may include other penalties at his or her
discretion.

XV. New Citizens
a. A new citizen entering Nova Roma as the legal child of another
citizen takes that citizen's nomen and cognomen, and may choose a
praenomen and agnomina subject to the approval of his or her new legal
parent and of the censores. A new citixen entering Nova Roma as the
legal child of a married citizen couple takes the nomen and cognomen of
his or her legal father, and may choose a praenomen and agnomina subject
to the approval of his or her new legal parents and of the censores.
b. A person who is the biological child of a citizen or of a married
citizen couple, or who is the legally adopted child of a citizen or of a
married citizen couple according to the law of the state in which he or
she lives, shall have the right to become a citizen as the legal child
of that citizen or married citizen couple.
c. A new citizen entering Nova Roma as a paterfamilias or
materfamilias takes the nomen appropriate to his or her gens and a
cognomen not already held by any member of that gens.

XVI. Miscellaneous Provisions
a. To have capacity to witness a legal transaction a person must be
a citizen, sui iuris, aged 18 years or above, and not prohibited from
doing so by a court judgement of the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.
b. The praetores may clarify, supplement, and interpret this law
with reference to the relevant provisions and practices of republican
Roman law, and with reference to the principles of justice and equity,
as was done by the praetores of antiquity.

[End text of LEX EQUITIA DE FAMILIA]

The fifth law defines the jurisdiction of the praetors and provides
for provincial promagistrates to act as legal authority in legal
cases where all involved citizens reside within their province.

LEX EQVITIA DE IVRISDICTIONE

This law is enacted in order to further define the term "competence" as
used in the lex Salicia iudiciaria.

I. The praetores shall have competence to grant trial in any matter
between citizens (or in any matter between a citizen and a peregrinus or
between peregrini provided that the conditions set in the lex Salicia
poenalis article VII.B are observed), with the following exceptions:

a. The praetores shall not grant trial against a reus who is a
sitting magistrate.
b. The praetores shall not grant trial against a reus who is a former
censor or a former dictator regarding any action taken by that person in
the course of his duties as censor or dictator.


II. Whenever a praetor shall receive a petitio actionis regarding which
he is forbidden by this lex from granting trial, he shall dismiss the
petitio actionis under the lex Salicia iudiciaria article II.a.

III. The governor of a provincia shall have competence to grant trial in
any matter between citizens who live in that provincia (or in any matter
between a citizen and a peregrinus who both live in that provincia or
between peregrini who both live in that provincia provided that the
conditions set in the lex Salicia poenalis article VII.B are observed).

a. In such cases, all laws concerning the administration of
justice shall apply as usual, any reference to the praetor or the
praetores being construed as referring to the governor.
b. Should the praetores receive any petitio actionis concerning a
matter which is between two citizens who live in the same provincia, or
between a citizen and a peregrinus who live in the same provincia, or
between two peregrini who live in the same provincia, they shall pass
the petitio to the governor of that provincia.
c. Should a petitio submitted to a governor be dismissed by that
governor, or should the governor fail to respond to such a petitio
within 120 hours (5 days) of its submission, the petitioner may submit
the same petitio to the praetores, and the praetores may deal with the
petitio as under the lex Salicia iudiciaria and all other relevant laws.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA DE IVRISDICTIONE]


=================================================================

The presidium shall be Fabia (Tribe I).

Schedule for the Contio and vote:

22 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio begins at dawn Roma time
23 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
24 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
25 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
26 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
27 Septembris (dies comitialis) At dawn (06:00) Roma time contio ends
and voting begins
28 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
29 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
30 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
1 Octobris (dies nefastus) Voting suspended at 00:01 Roma time
2 Octobris (dies fastus) Voting suspended
3 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting resumes at 00:01 Roma time
4 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
5 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting ends at dusk (18:00) Roma time


Please note that the time in Roma is Central European Time (CET), which
is six hours later than Eastern Standard Time in the United States, and
one hour later than Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28991 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-21
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
sorry.
--- fabruwil@... <fabruwil@...> wrote:
> Salve -
>
> Queens is just a bit far off from here!
>
> -Ursus
>


=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28992 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Pater,

"It is neither discrimination or subjugation."

--I know that but then that makes me wonder why your junior cohort has repeatedly used such terminology to paint my stance in as dark a light as possible? You yourself have chosen to employ other references to accomplsih yet the same objective. Instead of "discrimination" or "subjugation" you choose to employ more subtle terms such as "equitable", "equality" (which can be basically narrowed down to unequal), "unfair", "second-class", and "rational(e)." These are terms meant to accomplish the same objective as those I quoted previously. But my favorite is "administration without representation" which falls right in with the list already listed. Have we gone back to the "taxation without representation?" What's next revolt? Who gets to be Spartacus in the failed revolt?

"The problem with Nova Roma is that we aren't actually ancient Romans. We've all had two thousand years of knowledge to draw from..."

--Well the first sentence is self explanatory. However, I beg to differ and could argue that point. What is Roman? Considering Rome expanded and incorporated many people under its rule what is Roman? Even looking past the Republican era into the Imperial how large was the Empire? How many people fell under their dominion? So what is Roman is a matter of opinion. But more importantly bringing us up to the present is the second portion of the above quote. Yes they maybe so but when it is perfectly legal and able to do so, the introduction of modern thought is unnecessary. This would be nothing more than an outside desire to alter and dilute what was Roma Antiqua. It is absolutley unnecessary to do such in this instance.

"women can be just as capable leaders and administrators as men can be."

--This is a prime example of the above. It is nothing more than an attempt to cast my stance in as negative a light as possible. Your statement however, is not the point. You as the Pontifex Maximus should respect the Religio more so than any other follower or member of the priesthood for that matter. Yet diluting and distorting it does the Religio no justice and personally I believe disrespects it and its history.

"The rationale that "it must be done because it is historical" can't put the genie back in the box."

--My stance does not promote a caveman mentality as you might like to believe. It would not promote or advocate in anyway disrespect for woman. But would preserve the Religio and its history. The person that crosses the line by making arguments that are advocating women as second class has crossed the line. But before anyone tries and plays that card on me, my statements in no way do so. The walk a fine line of preserving the Religio not distorting.

"Can you give me *any* reason why women should be barred from being Pontifices and Flamens besides "it is historical?""

--Tell me why should I engage in this rhetoric? I will not because it will alter even further the very nature of this debate. You seek to deflect heat off the Moderati stance by trying to put the focus on the historical stance. Yet the historical stance speaks for itself. As I stated before, yours requires justification. Mines does not. Therefore why should I engage in this rhetoric to give you ammunition to try and use against me and so you could then justify the Moderati stance. I am not going to engage in rhetoric that involves the diluting of the Religio. I leave that to you and the Moderati. So you justify your own arguments. I will not. Mine speaks for itself and stands firm. Yours wobbles because it has no solid ground on which to stand. I already stated clearly the available options to woman within the Religio. So as you said the Religio, "as a polytheistic religion that must survive and grow from attracting people to join, can't afford to alienate 50% of the
population." Well that is true but there is no alienation if you'd pick up a history book. The did play a role in the Religio and there are options available to them. So if the did have a role and had options available to them how would they be alienated from the Religio? You cannot reasonably argue that when women had a role in the Religio that they were alienated. You cannot state otherwise. Because it is a historical fact that women were involved, they did participate, and had positions within the Religio. Yet again you have no justification but must try and deflect attention.

Vale, QCB



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28993 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Eternal Flame-A common practice in cultures and faiths
G. Equitius Cato F. Galerio Aureliano S.P.D.

Salve, Flamen.

One major difference between the "eternal flame" of which you speak
and the Christian custom of keeping a Presence Lamp lit in front of
the Sacrament is that as the Sacrament may be moved, there is not
necessarily one single flame lit eternally in one single place.
For instance, when the sacrament is removed from the High Altar to
the Altar of Repose on Holy Thursday, the Presence Lamp on the High
Altar is extinguished, and a lamp at the Altar of Repose is lit.
Now, this may be the lamp-lighting equivalent of semantics, but
again, the flame is not linked to a place, but to a Person, and it
goes wherever that Person goes: "sequuntur Agnum quocum que
ierit".

I take note of Cassius Brutus' post regarding the place of fire in
every religion, and am more prone to agree that the Presence Lamp
may be an almost direct descendant of the great menorah found in the
Temple; still, though, in most Orthodox Churches (and some RC and
Anlican ones) you will find not just the Presence Lamp but also 7
others, representing the Seven Great Churches of Asia Minor, in
connection with the vision of John in the Apocalypse of seven lamps
burning before the Throne of God.

The Christian adoption of the timing of Christmas is absolutely a
result of the Church trying to co-opt pagan practice, as are many of
the Saints' Feasts (St. John's is a particularly strong example, as
is All Hallows' Eve); the vestments (albs, dalmatics, maniples,
cinctures, etc.) are all adaptations of court dress of one time or
another, albeit with newly-assigned "Christian" meanings; I would be
interested, however, in delving further into the connection between
the veneration of the Ever-Virgin Theotokos and the cults of mother-
goddesses. It has always been my understanding that the teachings
of the Western Church were so severe and unforgiving that the people
naturally turned to a figure of comfort and hope, symbolized by
Mary, which led to the spectacular excesses found in the Early
Middle Ages with regard to the near-idolization of Mary.

The Eastern Church, however, recognized Mary's peculiar place within
the history of salvation, and although they accorded her great honor
(the very title "Theotokos, for example), they stopped well short of
the Mariolatry found in the West. Mary said of herself, "All
generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48), so we have again a
specific reference within Christian scripture that would give rise
to her special veneration.

I guess the point of all this is that these practices by the
Christian Church are linked directly to Christian scriptures as
opposed to many other practices such as those you've pointed out. I
think it is making the issue more complicated than necessary to try
to bridge a practice back to pre-Christian times when there is a
specific reason for it stemming directly from what we believe are
Christ's (and Mary's and John's) words.

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28994 From: TiAnO Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: LUDI CIRCENSIS - Semifinals
Salve Quinte Salix Cantaber Uranice,

Thank you very much for your answer! I accept the result as it is. I only like to know, why things are not as they should be.

Don't worry, I understand the problems with translations very well, since English is not my mother tongue either. ;)

Greetings and thank you again, TiAnO

"Q. Salix Cantaber URANICUS" <qsalixcant@...> wrote:
Ave, Tiberie.

Oh... I'm sorry!

It is an error that I have made when accomplishing the translation.

The result of the fourth semifinal has been the following one:

I. - CTESIPHON driven by Hemeros; of the Factio VENETA.
II. - AMAROK driven by Michael Olfieldus; of the Factio RUSSATA.
III. - Basilea driven by Septimius Raudax, of the Factio PRAESINA.
Accident victim. - Delecta Mea, driven by Crescens, of the Factio PRAESINA.

Only both are classified first in arriving: Ctesiphon and Amarok.

My error has take because I write the stories in Spanish first and later I must translate them to English... that it is a language that I don't know in depth and only for little time. I lent more attention to the language that to the text.

I will transfer the corrected text so that all can you see the real results.

I apologize with you for it. If you don't agree with the result I put your reclamation to the Colegium Aediles: I will send the data of the race so that they judge their reclamation.

Cordially yours.


Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO) Factio Praesina
Lictor curiatus of Nova Roma
Translator linguae Germanicae for Nova Roma
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris in Nova Roma
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Owner of the winning chariot in the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris

Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt or http://www.tylus.ch.tt

Citizen of the NRR




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28995 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Divination
In a message dated 9/21/04 5:55:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:

would say the Boni are the most modern faction in Nova Roma. As
Cordus pointed out secret societies were forbidden in Republican
days. Such goings on would have horrified traditionalists such as
Cato Uticensis.



And he would demand that the Senate suppress them as a danger to the State.

Romans magistrates simply distrusted secret societies, but not as much as
the Emperors
distrusted them. I could argue that the faction is not a secret society,
simply because we are group of like minded friends that was worried about the
direction of Nova Roma. However,
since we have the state's well being as our most pressing objective, the
Roman state has no fear from us. Nor does the People. .

At anyrate, after some discussion we have decided to re-open the Boni list,
and opening its membership to anyone who is worried about the current
direction of NR.
This is an effort to eliminate the term "secret society".
There will be an announcement made shortly.

Q Fabius Maximus
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28996 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
In a message dated 9/21/04 7:07:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
cassius622@... writes:

The rationale that "it must be done because it is historical" can't put the

genie back in the box. In two millennia we've learned more things than the
Romans knew. We may appreciate that much of what they did had huge merit
and
deserves to live again - but that does not mean we must accept everything
they
did without rational question and practical consideration.




You know, I was with you up until you made that statement.
Frankly we don't know what the Romans knew. I thought that was one of the
reasons we were here, to learn. To assume that the Romans were sexist pigs, as
you claim, and that everybody was a sexist pig since that was the way of the
world, certainly is ignoring history.
If the women were such second class citizens as you claim, why did they have
their own orgastic rites? And their own festivals in that men were
forbidden? And why didn't the men demand entrance if they had such power? They were
reduced to sneaking in. And why were women the ones to carry out those
fecundity rites? Surely the men were just as powerful? Or were they.
It so easy to say, we are enlightened. How so are we enlightened? If the
great god science has all the answers, why was he kept in the dark for so many
years by the Christians? Because of him we have no slavery. Because of him we
are in better health then anytime ever in our history and how are we rewarded?
Our eco-systems are breaking down, we live on the cusp of Atomic
annihilation, we cannot save everybody from harm. And our population continues to
outgrow this planet. This is a reward?
The ancients realized this. Their gods were humanistic, they were realists.

Everyone would be a slave once in their life. Wars and conquests made it so.
All one could hope was a ransomer would find one and liberate him. It was a
way of life. One that science eliminated. We act like women rights and
equality is fairly new. It is not.
The Minoanans had it, The Egyptians had it, several central African tribes
had it. The Romans had it in its own way, but to say Rome was ruled by women
would be stretching the truth. Yet Roman women had more daily freedom then a
wedded Athenian women.
So, while there were all male Pontiffs in Rome, you have to come up with a
better reason then we are more enlightened then they were so now we can allow
women..
Q. Fabius Maximus
Pontifice, Senator,
Pro Consul



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28997 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Cassio Iuliano salutem dicit

Using your own logic give me the reasons why men should be denied the
opportunity to become Vestals?

Additionally, why not allow Plebeians to become Rex and Regina Sacrorum.
Why not have a woman become Flamen Dialis; would her husband become the
Flaminica? Why does the Collegium Augurium allow for so many Plebeian and so many
Patrician; why not make it open equally to both orders?

The difference between a Flamen and a Pontifex is that the Pontifiex is
primarily an administrative and legal priesthood, while the Flamen is
sacrificial. For some reason the Gods have mandated men to hold the priesthood of
Flamen, until this arrangement is re-negotiated I do not support woman Flamen (I
have supported woman Pontifices).

Right now we are arguing opinions, but the Gods have never been consulted.
As an augur I would be willing to convene the Collegium Augurium to determine
the will of the Gods on these issues.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius



In a message dated 9/21/2004 10:07:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cassius622@... writes:

Answer me this, Brutus. Can you give me *any* reason why women should be
barred from being Pontifices and Flamens besides "it is historical?" Can
you
tell me a single, rational reason why only men are fit for these positions?
Do
you perhaps simply believe that the Gods have decreed that men are better
than women? Or that the Gods have decreed that only men are suited for
leadership and administration?






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28998 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
G. Equitius Cato Q. Fabio Maximo S.P.D.

Salve, Fabius Maximus.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:

>To assume that the Romans were sexist pigs, as
>you claim, and that everybody was a sexist pig since that was the
>way of the world, certainly is ignoring history.

CATO: Fabius Maximus, the point of this whole question is not
whether or not the ancient Romans were "sexist pigs" --- or the
Minoans or the Egyptians or the Bushmen or the Guarino Indians. The
question is whether or not Nova Roma should allow women an equal
place in Nova Roman society on every level that men enjoy. Is there
any reason, aside from "it's historical", that supports the idea
that women should not be pontiffs?


> If the women were such second class citizens as you claim, why
did they have
> their own orgastic rites? And their own festivals in that men
were
> forbidden? And why didn't the men demand entrance if they had
such power?

CATO: This is the subsidiary question, one which discusses gender-
specific priesthoods. As has been said time and time again, the
preservation of gender-specific priesthoods is not the same question
at all: in Nova Roma, no priesthood carries within itself more
social or political influence simply because of the gender of its
members; therefore, gender-specific priesthoods do not bar either
gender from a position of influence. Male-only pontificates do.

They were
> reduced to sneaking in. And why were women the ones to carry out
those
> fecundity rites? Surely the men were just as powerful? Or were
they.
> It so easy to say, we are enlightened. How so are we enlightened?
If the
> great god science has all the answers, why was he kept in the dark
for so many
> years by the Christians? Because of him we have no slavery.
Because of him we
> are in better health then anytime ever in our history and how are
we rewarded?

CATO: You contradict your own argument. I'm assuming that the
practice of keeping "the great god science...in the dark" by "the
Christians" is, in your opinion, a bad one. Your Christians kept
society back by hiding scientific knowledge, keeping that knowledge
from changing and bettering the world in which we live. Yet this
same "great god science" is just one of many parts of civilization
which have evolved over the past two millenia, endowing humanity
with the ability to understand itself and the universe around it
with greater precision than ever before. Including a developed
sense of the social and political equality between the genders.


> Our eco-systems are breaking down, we live on the cusp of Atomic
> annihilation, we cannot save everybody from harm. And our
population continues to
> outgrow this planet. This is a reward?

CATO: so, were "the Christians" CORRECT to keep the "great god
science" under wraps after all? What is the point of all this, and
what does it have to do with women being equal citizens?



> The ancients realized this. Their gods were humanistic, they were
realists.
>
> Everyone would be a slave once in their life. Wars and conquests
made it so.
> All one could hope was a ransomer would find one and liberate him.
It was a
> way of life.


CATO: this is simply not true. Perhaps you take poetic license in
order to make your somewhat confusing point, but the idea
that "everyone would be slave once in their life" is so incorrect
that I find it difficult to believe you actually meant it. On top
of which, just because everyone in a particular society thinks
something is acceptable doesn't make it so. This is the equivalent
of telling your mother that yes, you WOULD jump off a roof if
everyone else did.


One that science eliminated. We act like women rights and
> equality is fairly new. It is not.
> The Minoanans had it, The Egyptians had it, several central
African tribes
> had it. The Romans had it in its own way, but to say Rome was
ruled by women
> would be stretching the truth. Yet Roman women had more daily
freedom then a
> wedded Athenian women.


CATO: Again, this begs the real question. The equivalent to this
statement, that because a slave in Alabama was better off than a
slave in Missouri (and I only use those two states as an example,
not based on historical accuracy) we should therefore deem
the "kind" of slavery found in Alabama as acceptable is ludicrous.

We in Nova Roma must decide simply whether or not we deem women the
equals of men, not begin from a standpoint of inequality and try to
justify it by declaring that women were "less unequal" in ancient
Rome so they should just accept that level of inequality and thank
the Gods we're not "Nova Athens".


> Q. Fabius Maximus
> Pontifice, Senator,
> Pro Consul

Vale,

Cato
Citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 28999 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Salve Cato;

Vestals carried considerable influence in ancient Rome, and they should in
Nova Roma as well. However, we do not currently have any vestals.

I have stated my support for woman pontifices, but maintain a position that
would prevent woman from being Flamen and men from being Vestals. Are you
suggesting that men should become Vestals?

Additionally, I acknowledge your status as an active and involved citizen.
However, you bring up the fact that you are an Orthodox Christian and also a
member of Nova Roma -- an organization that includes the Religo Romana (a
Polytheistic Religion). Would you afford the same courtesy to woman by
advocating with your Archbishop/Metropolitan/Patriarch within Orthodoxy to allow for
woman ordination?

The priesthood of Nova Roma is NOT a politcal tool to be used by anyone.
That includes members of Nova Roma who practice the Religio Romana and those
who do not.

We need to get serious people!

These political debates serve nothing to better us, and do nothing to make
Nova Roma better. I keep asking myself, and I keep being asked by others,
"What is Nova Roma? When will I start learning about Rome?"

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 9/22/2004 7:22:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

CATO: This is the subsidiary question, one which discusses gender-
specific priesthoods. As has been said time and time again, the
preservation of gender-specific priesthoods is not the same question
at all: in Nova Roma, no priesthood carries within itself more
social or political influence simply because of the gender of its
members; therefore, gender-specific priesthoods do not bar either
gender from a position of influence. Male-only pontificates do.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29000 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: FWD re intermediate Latin course at Academia Thules
A. Apollonius Cordus omnibus sal.

Let me also encourage you to take this course. IÂ’ve
met Garseius Avítus a couple of times now and already
he has helped me to improve my Latin considerably by
his sheer enthusiasm for the subject. He is a fluent
speaker of the language – so much so that I have even
seen him slip from English into Latin quite
unintentionally! He is also an extremely engaging and
interesting fellow, and I always look forward to
meeting him.

As for the course itself, I need hardly point out the
advantages of being able to read and write Latin, but
this course does more than that – it teaches us to
speak Latin and to understand it when spoken to us.
This is important because speaking a language – being
familiar with the distinctive patterns and
characteristics of that language – helps us to
understand on a more instinctive level how the Romans
thought about the world. It also makes the study of
Latin no longer a solitary, academic pursuit, but a
means of interacting with one another: local citizens
can get together to practise their Latin conversation,
and can also use their new skills as part of local
projects to teach people about Rome and to recruit new
citizens. Finally, Latin has the potential to be a
genuinely common language in Nova Róma (there are many
citizens, including ones whose English is really very
good, who donÂ’t participate in our international
e-mail lists because reading and writing so much
English is simply too troublesome) – and since none of
us are native speakers of Latin, we can all speak
Latin to one another on an equal footing without some
having to work harder than others.

So I hope to have many of you as classmates in Avítus’ course.





___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29001 From: Marcus Cassius Petreius Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Gmail Addresses
Hello all,

I have six Gmail addresses available to distribute to my fellow Nova
Romans. If you would like one, please let me know by private reply.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29002 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Congratulations Livia Iulia Drusilla!
SALVE ARMINIA!

I thank you for your kind words, I'm happy to see that you enjoied
it!
I'm sure you are absolutely able to afford my quiz! You have the
right weapons to dethrone Livia Iulia form her place...

Next year, who knows? Maybe I will organize for the III time this
game, let's see...

BENE VALE
L IUL SULLA
Quaestor



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Avete;
> Surely the gods love you as the honor & glory is yours Livia
> Iulia!
> And Luci Iuli I must say that was one incredible quiz; maybe
by
> next year I'll be able to answer one question;-)
> optime valete
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
>
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> > <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Quirites,
> > >
> > > Lucius Iulius wrote:
> > >
> > > > AVETE CIVES ROMANI
> > > >
> > > > And now... the final classification!
> > > >
> > > > Honour and glory to Livia Iulia Drusilla! Honour and glory
to
> > Gens
> > > > Iulia!
> > >
> > > Congratulations Livia Iulia! Well done indeed! That was a
heck
> > of a
> > > contest, and you did very well.
> > >
> > > > Many compliments to all the participants, mostly for those
that
> > made
> > > > me sweat a lot for the publication of the most difficoult
> > questions
> > > > I could invent!
> > >
> > > Yes, congratulations to all who participated, and to Lucius
> Iulius
> > Sulla
> > > for his work in organizing the contest.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29003 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
"The question is whether or not Nova Roma should allow women an equal place in Nova Roman society on every level that men enjoy."

--You Moderati really need to get off this. It holds no water. Women not holding a specific position is hardly a sign of inequality. You cannot justify nor come up with any rational reason to dilute the Religio with your Moderati view. The only wildcard you try and play, which is a week one at best is "Is there any reason, aside from "it's historical", that supports the idea that women should not be pontiffs?" Can you actually justify and defend your own logic without asking diversionary questions?

"This is the subsidiary question, one which discusses gender-
specific priesthoods."

--Nice try but "discrimination" is "discrimination" and we wouldn't want anything that is not "equittable" now would we? Well by the same token it could be argued the Pontiff's were gender specific. So therefore an argument to the contrary dilutes them.

"As has been said time and time again, the preservation of gender-specific priesthoods is not the same question at all..."

--Is this the best you can do to avoid giving an actual response to the statement? No female ever was a pontifice and like I said this could be said to be gender-specific.

"no priesthood carries within itself more social or political influence simply because of the gender of its members ..."

--This is a sloppy justification. You have no real logic that is workable that should be accepted. Your argument about women being second class has been sunk so now you must scramble to avoid engaging the issue and create horrendous logic to justify your stand. But "Male-only pontificates do..." if that were so then are suggesting women could not voice an opinion on the main list or the religio list and that the Pontiffs would not read or consider it? That sounds more like a personal problem than a problem with the system.

"Your Christians kept society back by hiding scientific knowledge, keeping that knowledge from changing and bettering the world in which we live."

--What's better? Are we? Hardly. Slavery still exists in a multitude of forms. Both slavery as it was and slavery where you make $5.25 an hour and instead of a slave shack you go home to section-8 housing. Not a great leap forward.

"the idea that "everyone would be slave once in their life" is so incorrect..."

--Let's leap forward to the present here....Do you have a job? Do you have to show up M-F to get payed? If you don't will you be fired? Do you need the money from that job to pay bills or be forced to declare bankruptcy? I'd say he's right.

"We in Nova Roma must decide simply whether or not we deem women the equals of men..."

--This is absolutley the wrong question to ask. This has nothing to women's equality the has to do with the preservation of the Religio. You seek to distort the Religio based on sloppy logic that does not justify nor warrant the diluting of the Religio. There's is no inequality and your proposals are unnecessary. There are farsical to even ask under the idea that there is this far reaching inequality. "not begin from a standpoint of inequality and try to justify it..." Oh my god you need to get off this. There is no inequality for anyone to justify. This is your own perception and a blind one at that to even suggest inequality exists. What is equality? Equal access? Then why can't I be a Vestal? Oh wait that is a seperate issue I forgot. You have to dodge your own logic when it is accurately put to you. If you seek to dilute the office of Pontiff then you will have to do likewise for other gender specific priesthoods. Or do you have your own little agenda of
indoctrinating Roman ways with modern thought?


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29004 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana (to Brutus)
Salve,

Quintus Cassius Brutus, as far as I am able to tell your replies to
me so far have been far more like "list troll" tactics rather than a
discussion of either facts or the needs of Nova Roma. You reply to
every statement with a sort of "verbal jiu-jitsu" - interpreting
everything either as an attack on you personally, or dismissing it
as "rhetoric."

To say that barring half of our Citizens from top Religio
administration solely because of their genitalia is "unequal and
therefore unfair" is neither an attack on you personally or mere
rhetoric. It is my concern that the Religio should be a rational path
in which Citizens of both genders ought to have full leadership
opportunity based on individual merit.

I do not believe I will be responding to you directly any more if you
continue replying to me as you have been. There is simply no point in
it.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29005 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:

> You know, I was with you up until you made that statement.

Cassius respondit:
Nonsense. You've always supported traditional roles for Women in Nova
Roma, just as you've always felt that Nova Roma should have
been "Religio Romana only." Nothing I can ever say is likely to get
you to completely change your basic positions and be 'with me.'

Q. Fabius:
> Frankly we don't know what the Romans knew. I thought that was one
of the reasons we were here, to learn. To assume that the Romans
were sexist pigs, as you claim, and that everybody was a sexist pig
since that was the way of the world, certainly is ignoring history.

Cassius:
I neither said we knew exactly what the Romans knew, or that Romans
were sexist pigs. I merely say that we today understand that women
can lead and administrate as well as men can, and to deny half of our
population leadership opportunity on gender alone is inequitable and
unfair.

Q. Fabius:
> If the women were such second class citizens as you claim, why did
they have their own orgastic rites?

Cassius:
Do you refer to the orgiastic rites of Bacchus that were forcibly
banned by the all male Collegium Pontificum? In any case, having your
own specific rites is not the same thing as having an equal share in
the administration of the Religio Romana.

Q. Fabius:
And their own festivals in that men were forbidden?

Cassius:
Such as the one evening a year festival of the Bona Dea? A very nice
thing, but again not the same thing as having equal opportunity to
lead the entire Religio all the time. (And of course, there were
plenty of rites that women were not allowed to attend.)

Q.Fabius:
And why didn't the men demand entrance if they had such power? They
were educed to sneaking in.

Cassius:
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were writing to convince any
new Citizens that might not know much about Roman history, rather
than to me. The women did not have "such power", they had a few rites
that men allowed them to have. Men were not "reduced to sneaking in",
one man snuck into ONE Bona Dea festival, mostly as a joke, and got
caught.

Q. Fabius:
And why were women the ones to carry out those fecundity rites?
Surely the men were just as powerful? Or were they.

Cassius:
Ah, you're implying that women really held the most power because
they got to do fecundity rites, and that it perhaps was merely
a "sop" to the men's ego to allow them to be the leaders the entire
Religio Romana overall? You'll pardon me if I consider this an absurd
attempt to twist the issue.


Q. Fabius:
> It so easy to say, we are enlightened. How so are we enlightened?
(snipped for brevity.)

Cassius:
I'm not really talking about "enlightenment." I'm talking about basic
fairness and practicality. It is fair for *all* of our Citizens to
have leadership opportunity should they have the drive and talent for
it, rather than to restrict leadership on the basis of genetalia.

Such equality is also practical; it would allow the Religio to
potentially draw on the leadership skills of all our Citizens, rather
than just half. It would also ensure that the Religio would continue
to attract a wider number of people. As I've mentioned before, people
do not tend to join organizations where they and their entire gender
are not allowed equal leadership opportunity.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29006 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Cassio Iuliano salutem dicit
> Using your own logic give me the reasons why men should be denied
the opportunity to become Vestals?

Cassius respondit:
You bring this up because you know I don't advocate the changing of
gender roles for this sole position. As far as I have ever been
aware, the position of Vestal was the only position in all of Roma
Antiqua where gender and sexual condition were the primary conditions
for acceptance. In other words, the gender in a real sense *equalled*
the office - possibly because Vestals were considered to be physical
representations of the Goddess herself.

So, yes, it was still "tradition" but there seems to at least be a
reason for it in this one case. Even so, Nova Roma has been horribly
unfortunate with Vestals, even though we've tried to keep that
traditonal gender role intact. It has been a continuing grievance for
me that we've been unable to keep even one Vestal position filled for
any length of time.

I've wondered if it might not benefit us to consider the Vestals
position "unfillable at this time" much like the position of "Flamen
Dialis." Instead we could easily begin a more informal "Sodalitas of
Vesta" in which all Citizens could join, and which would at least
provide Vesta with regular worship. We already have some Citizens
such as Q. Fabius Maximus who keep flames to Vesta, so it might be
best to organize what we *do* have rather than arguing over what we
don't.

Athanasius:
> Additionally, why not allow Plebeians to become Rex and Regina
Sacrorum.

Cassius:
Why not? There is actually no difference between the Patricians and
Plebians in Nova Roma.

Athanasius:
> Why not have a woman become Flamen Dialis; would her husband
become the Flaminica?

Cassius:
I don't beleive we actually have that position open at this time.
There are so many traditional restrictions to the office that no one
could possibly fill it today. We'd have to make many changes just to
get it to be workable - even the Boni have agreed in the past that
this is so.

Athanasius:
Why does the Collegium Augurium allow for so many Plebeian and so
many Patrician; why not make it open equally to both orders?

Cassius:
I don't truly see any real reason why it couldn't be opened equally
to both orders. Traditional requirements were listed when the website
was created simply because they were there, not because there was a
real need one way or another. It might perhaps cause political
problems if the Collegium Augurium were filled totally by one order
over the other, but that is another issue.

Athanasius:
> The difference between a Flamen and a Pontifex is that the
Pontifiex is primarily an administrative and legal priesthood, while
the Flamen is sacrificial. For some reason the Gods have mandated
men to hold the priesthood of Flamen, until this arrangement is re-
negotiated I do not support woman Flamen (I have supported woman
Pontifices).

Cassius:
The Flamines are part of the Collegium Pontificum, and participate in
all decision making. They also are the "leaders" of the major cults,
even though you're quite correct that they also have a specific role
of sacrifice.

But of course the arrangement will never be "re-negotiated" with a
Boni Collegium Pontificum all in agreement that traditional gender
roles should not be changed. ;)

Athanasius:
> Right now we are arguing opinions, but the Gods have never been
consulted. As an augur I would be willing to convene the Collegium
Augurium to determine the will of the Gods on these issues.

Cassius:
I'm actually more interested in consulting the Citizens on this issue
as a "first step." You don't try to negotiate anything you haven't
first determined your position on!

Possibly this is an issue that should come up as a vote in the
Comitiae - certainly I'd stop speaking out on the issue if it was
proven that the vast majority of our Citizens want women to hold
traditional gender roles only. At least I'd have peace of mind that
it wasn't something being forced on me by a minority of Citizens who
happen to belong to the Boni.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29007 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Welcome new member of Gens Sempronia!
Julilla Sempronia Magna omnibus SPD

Once again I must solicit your congratulations for the newest
daughter of gens Sempronia. Iusta Sempronia Iustina's citizenship was
ratified by the Censors yesterday, making her the 11th civa
NovaRomani in the revived Sempronii gens -- and I must sat that it is
good to have another woman relative!

Iusta Sempronia Iustina hails from my own provincia, America
Boreoccidentalis, and she was introduced to Nova Roma by the lovely
and talented Lucia Modia Lupa.

Please make her feel welcome amongst us!

---
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| materfamilias,
@____@ Gens Sempronia
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/GensSempronia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29008 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus C. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit

Salve, Equiti Cato.

> >To assume that the Romans were sexist pigs, as
> >you claim, and that everybody was a sexist pig since that was the
> >way of the world, certainly is ignoring history.
>
> CATO: Fabius Maximus, the point of this whole question is not
> whether or not the ancient Romans were "sexist pigs" --- or the
> Minoans or the Egyptians or the Bushmen or the Guarino Indians. The
> question is whether or not Nova Roma should allow women an equal
> place in Nova Roman society on every level that men enjoy. Is there
> any reason, aside from "it's historical", that supports the idea
> that women should not be pontiffs?

To which I must respond with another question: If we are "dedicated to the...
restoration of ancient Roman culture," why should we allow woman pontifices?
Why should we allow women to be magistrates and senators? Why should we allow
women to hold, within our grossly incorrect view of a family, the same position,
rights, and priviledges of men as head-of-household? The fact of the matter is
that we are supposed to be holding to history whenever it is possible. Here is
a case where it is very possible. I support women as pontiffs and in any other
position within our system on the basis of their ability -- I do not, and can
not, believe that a woman is less capable than a man to hold any position simply
on gender grounds. However, I do not, can not, and will not support women in
any of these positions within our system for as long as we state ourselves to be
"dedicated to the... restoration of ancient Roman culture." Let us first change
our aim to something more in line with what you, Cassius, and some others
desire, and my position will change, but for as long as our aim is what the
introductory page of our website states, I will hold to my position, and voice
it accordingly.

Vale Bene,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29009 From: H. Rutilius Bardulus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Salve, amice Cantaber.

> I want to congratulate HADRIANUS RUTILUS BARDULUS like winner
> of thechariot races an add those received by their victory in
> the competition of the photo-quiz.

[Bardulus] Another victory in the Ludi Romani for me! Hispania
vincit! But this victory is dedicated to the Great God,
Iuppiter, in whose honor these games are celebrated. Ad maiorem
Iovis Optimi Maximi gloriam!

And, of course, thank you and (again) all the Cohors Aedilis M.
Iulii Perusiani.

Vale,

H. Rutilius Bardulus




______________________________________________
Renovamos el Correo Yahoo!: ¡100 MB GRATIS!
Nuevos servicios, más seguridad
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29010 From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Work keeping me busy
Salvete,

I just wanted to let everyone know that my recent relative silence on
Nova Roma's various lists is due to my work being incredibly busy at the
moment, and it's only going to get worse between now and early November.
We're talking working 9-midnight 7 days a week. Such is the life of an
opinion pollster a month and a half before Election Day.

I'm trying to scan and skim what's passing on the lists, but some lists
I've turned to no mail, and others are on digest. (It's also the reason
I was unable to attend Roman Market Days last weekend; my apologies to
all who were expecting me there!)

Bear with me, folks!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29011 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Date: 2004-09-22
Subject: Massachusetts Pagan Pride Day After Action Review
C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete.

On Sunday, September 19th I had the pleasure of attending Massachusetts
Pagan Pride Day with my wife Octavia Minucia Sabina, and hosting a
Religio Romana workshop. After the terrible weather we had the day
before (which sadly rained out the first day of Roman Market Days), we
were thrilled to have an absolutely gorgeous day (though my wife was a
bit chilly in the afternoon when she changed into her thin but very
flattering linen pelpos!). The event was very well planned and well
attended, and held in the lovely Harold Parker State Park in North
Andover, Ma. We spent the morning enjoying the event's excellent musical
entertainment and checking out the numerous vendors, including La Wren's
nest and Nova Roma's own Vespasia Cassia Iulia's Jewels Incense
(www.jewelsincense.com). In the afternoon, my wife and I changed into
our Roman garb for the workshop, which drew a sizeable auidence,
including Vespasia Cassia and Nova Roma's Sacerdotes of Apollo, Andrea
Gladia Cyrene. The workshop went very well (despite my nervousness, this
being my first!) and ended up running well over our alloted time of one
hour. In all it was a great day, and was an excellent chance to spread
awareness of the Religio Romana and reconstructionism in general to the
wider pagan community. I am hoping to return again next year with
another workshop perhaps a public ritual and hopefully with an even
larger contingent from Nova Roma!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minervae Aedis Sacerdos
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29012 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
G. Equitius Cato Q. Caecilio Metello S.P.D.

Salve, Caecilius Metellus.

I understand and sympathize with what you have said, but
unfortunately you have not used the quotation from our Constitution
in its entirety, and the correct application changes the meaning of
these words quite a bit. I quote you:

"However, I do not, can not, and will not support women in
any of these positions within our system for as long as we state
ourselves to be 'dedicated to the... restoration of ancient Roman
culture.' Let us first change our aim to something more in line
with what you, Cassius, and some others desire, and my position will
change, but for as long as our aim is what the introductory page of
our website states, I will hold to my position, and voice
it accordingly."

Now, let's look at the full sentence from which you quote, and the
one which follows immediately:

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire,
Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and
acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic.
The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned
upon those of ancient Rome."

You left out the key words "in all manners practical and
acceptable." They are key to the position which I have taken,
because it is simply not acceptable in the 28th century A.U.C. for
women to be denied equality in regards to social or political
standing. The Constitution itself acknowledges implicitly that
there are issues within the culture and society of ancient Rome
which are NOT, in fact, "practical" or "acceptable". I hold that
this is one of them.

Now the sentence immediately follwing says that our culture shall
be "patterned after" ancient Rome --- not a carbon copy, a simple
transplanting of ancient Rome full-bore onto the 28th century, but
rather that the "pattern" of ancient Rome is our guide. This idea
coupled with the sentence about acceptability and practicality gives
us the liberty to decide what is transplantable and what is not. I
hold that barring women from the highest positions of social,
religious, or political office is not.

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29013 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Cassi,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Cassius Julianus"
<cassius622@a...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:

> Athanasius:
> > Additionally, why not allow Plebeians to become Rex and Regina
> Sacrorum.
>
> Cassius:
> Why not? There is actually no difference between the Patricians and
> Plebians in Nova Roma.

Good Gods Cassius, the main reason for keeping the patrician/plebeian
orders was for **religious** reasons, because certain priesthoods
require patricians and some plebeians. Are you suggesting we toss
that out too? I'm sympathetic to a lot of what you say about woman
priesthoods, I haven 't made up my mind one way or the other (you're
wrong that all Boni have a tacit acceptance of the no-woman
priesthood position) but you go too far in what you say here about
patricians and plebeians.

> Athanasius:
> Why does the Collegium Augurium allow for so many Plebeian and so
> many Patrician; why not make it open equally to both orders?
>
> Cassius:
> I don't truly see any real reason why it couldn't be opened equally
> to both orders. Traditional requirements were listed when the
>website was created simply because they were there, not because
>there was a real need one way or another.

Traditional requirements were listed because we (that included you)
were interested in reviving the traditional Religio Romana--weren't
we? The orders exist in NR for religious reasons, not so certain
people can go around claiming they're bluebloods. The distinctions
were made for religious reasons, there is no practical difference
between patricians and plebeians in NR. We who are patricians lose a
lot of political power so we could properly establish the Religio. If
you remove the order specific priesthoods then you might as well
eliminate the orders completely for they will have no purpose. And
if we do that the question might be asked, just how much of ancient
Rome will we want to keep?

> Athanasius:
> > Right now we are arguing opinions, but the Gods have never been
> consulted. As an augur I would be willing to convene the Collegium
> Augurium to determine the will of the Gods on these issues.
>
> Cassius:
> I'm actually more interested in consulting the Citizens on this
>issue as a "first step." You don't try to negotiate anything you
>haven't first determined your position on!

I find this a tad disturbing that the Gods' views should be
secondary. What if you consult the people, they're in favor and the
Gods say no? It would create a lot of dissension, especially among
that segment of the population who don't believe in the Gods (which
is why you've always opposed allowing the people to vote on
pontiffs). It's an ass-backwards way of doing things, if you'll
pardon the colloquialism. If "consultations" with the Gods and the
people must be done, start with the Gods.

Vale,

Palladius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29014 From: deciusiunius Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

Salve Cato,

> You left out the key words "in all manners practical and
> acceptable." They are key to the position which I have taken,
> because it is simply not acceptable in the 28th century A.U.C. for
> women to be denied equality in regards to social or political
> standing. The Constitution itself acknowledges implicitly that
> there are issues within the culture and society of ancient Rome
> which are NOT, in fact, "practical" or "acceptable". I hold that
> this is one of them.

<sigh> In essence--says you. Cato, you know as well as I how
meaningless that phrase is you quoted. "Practical and acceptable" to
whom? You can say one view is practical and acceptable, one can say
another. You can even say practical and acceptable to the ancients
since it doesn't specify any era.

I'm not taking a position on the women priesthood position, just
listening (and frankly as a non-practitioner of the Religio, I'm not
sure why it is such an issue to you) but I had to respond regarding
your quote as I thought we'd all dispensed with throwing that inane
phrase back and forth.

Besides, you are misquoting Metellus, whether deliberately or not I
don't know. He wasn't quoting the Constitution, he was quoting the
opening page of the website, where it says below Roma
Resurgens, "Dedicated to the restoration of classical Roman religion,
culture and virtues" Also, a little below, in the first paragraph
where it starts "NOVA ROMA is an organization dedicated to the study
and restoration of ancient Roman culture."

> Now the sentence immediately follwing says that our culture shall
> be "patterned after" ancient Rome --- not a carbon copy, a simple
> transplanting of ancient Rome full-bore onto the 28th century, but
> rather that the "pattern" of ancient Rome is our guide.

A pattern can be a loose copy, a pattern can be an exact copy. Again,
not of much help either way.

Vale,

Palladius (who has been listening to an owl, Athena's bird, hooting
not far outside my window the whole time while writing this message
and the previous message, hoping some wisdom might be passed on to me
and of course pitying people like Cato who live in the concrete
jungle, paradoxically far from civilization)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29015 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: owls and bulls
Salve Palladius,

> Palladius (who has been listening to an owl, Athena's bird, hooting
> not far outside my window the whole time while writing this message
> and the previous message, hoping some wisdom might be passed on to me
> and of course pitying people like Cato who live in the concrete
> jungle, paradoxically far from civilization)

I listen to hundreds of cows moo-ing and see a positively scary big black bull as I write my emails.
I wonder what effect that has on my writing :-)

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29016 From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete;

I agree completely. What the Gods want means more to me than what the
people want, because the people's judgement is clouded by political
"one-upmanship." The Gods have the full picture, and are much wiser than any of us.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 9/23/2004 1:17:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bcatfd@... writes:

I find this a tad disturbing that the Gods' views should be
secondary. What if you consult the people, they're in favor and the
Gods say no? It would create a lot of dissension, especially among
that segment of the population who don't believe in the Gods (which
is why you've always opposed allowing the people to vote on
pontiffs). It's an ass-backwards way of doing things, if you'll
pardon the colloquialism. If "consultations" with the Gods and the
people must be done, start with the Gods.

Vale,

Palladius





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29017 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
G. Equitius Cato D. Iunio Palladio Invicto S.P.D.

Salve, Iunius Palladius.

I assure you I was not misquoting Caecilius Metellus on purpose; the
first thought I had when I saw those words was the Constitution.
So, I apologize on one hand, Caecilius Metellus, for taking your
words in a different context than that from which you were quoting.

However.

Iunius Palladius, it is more important what is said in the
Constitution than on the opening page of the website: our laws,
edicts, etc., must conform to the Constitution, not that opening
page. Whether or not you find a particular phrase in the
Constitution "inane" is of little or no consequence: until such time
as the Constitution changes, it remains, as is, as the guiding
principle behind Nova Roma. That is why it's important to me --- we
are not a church, we are a res publica. The framework of any office
that will have an impact on our life in the res publica is of
importance to all cives, not just practitioners.

It is pretty clear that the writers of the Constitution mean our own
time, rather than that of the ancients, by the "pracical"
and "acceptable" phrase; that's just a little bit of semantics,
nonne?

But when push comes to shove, I agree --- someone, ask the gods what
they want. Tell us the answer. And then let me ask you a question,
both Caecilius Metellus and Iunius Palladius: if the answer that
one of our priests receives is in favor of women pontifices, would
you accept it?

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29018 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana P.S.
O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato.

Salvete, D. Octaviae Aventinae et D. Iunio Palladio.

Hey, I can hear the rustle of rats in the dumpster out back, and the
gentle cooing of pigeons as they hop around on the windowsill, so I
feel quite close to nature here.

The occasional gunshot is, of course, a little startling, but...

:-)

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29019 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
In a message dated 9/23/04 3:55:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

> question,
> both Caecilius Metellus and Iunius Palladius: if the answer that
> one of our priests receives is in favor of women pontifices, would
> you accept it?
>

And if they said "no," would you? The Gladius cuts both ways here.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29020 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Join NR Latin America List
Salvete,

The provinces of Brazil, Argentina and Mexico have a place for
gathering and discussion of NR on Latin America.

Write to: NRlatinamerica-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Everyone with latin roots or interests are invited as well. The list
is open to all contributions!

Valete bene in pecem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Propraetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29021 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: This Day in Ancient History
FYI from Rogueclassicism

This Day in Ancient History


ante diem ix kalendas octobres

a.. rites in honor of Latona at the Theatre of Marcellus
b.. Mercatus -- those cupboards were really empty!
c.. 484 B.C. -- Birth of Euripides (?)
d.. 480 B.C. -- Athenian naval forces under Themistocles defeat Xerxes' Persian force in the narrows of Salamis (one reckoning)
e.. 63 B.C. -- birth of Octavian, the future emperor Augustus
f.. 25 B.C. -- dedication of the Temple of Neptune (and associated rites thereafter)
g.. 23 B.C. -- restoration of the temple of Apollo (and associated rites thereafter)
h.. 117 A.D. -- martyrdom of Thecla

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29022 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: 1st UPDATE - Comitia Centuriata Convened
Salvete Quirites,

We have a slight change to the Contio call. On advice from the
Sodalitas Latinitas I am changing one law title from "Lex Equitia de
Constitutionis Corregendis" to "Lex Equitia de Constitutione Corrigenda"
All else remains as previously stated.

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, augur Gaius Modius Athanasius has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia.
The augury being favorable, I call the Comitia Centuriata for the
purpose of voting on amendments to our Constitution. Since this
meeting of the Comitia Centuriata is only considering legislation,
the voting will not be sequential as it would be for election of a
magistrate. Instead, all centuries shall vote together.

Lex Equitia de Constitutione Corrigenda

The first item is simply the current Constitution, with its spelling,
grammar, and orthography corrected to remove accumulated errors. It
contains all amendments passed to date. Due to its length, the text
is posted at http://village.flashnet.it/~ua01823/Codex/Comparison-table.html
(courtesy of D. Constantinus Fuscus, who kindly made the comparison
page) rather than being given here. On that page the current text of
the Constitution is in the column on the left, and the text as corrected
on the right. No changes in the meaning of the document have been
included. Changes to the text of the constitution require the approval
of the Comitia Centuriata and the ratification of the Senate even in
these cases of simple grammatical correction. The Cista will include
the complete text of the Constitution as corrected, under the title
Lex Equitia de Constitutionis Corregendis.

The second item presented will provide Constitutional agreement for
the complimentary family law being presented in the Comitia Populi
Tributa.

Lex Equitia de Gentibus

I. Article II.D of the constitution is hereby amended to read:

"D. Gentes, Domus, and Familiae. Familiae (households) being the
backbone of Roman society, the prerogatives and responsibilities of the
familia are of primary importance to Nova Roma. Except where
specifically dealt with in this constitution and the law, each familia
shall have the right to determine its own course of action and parents
shall have the undisputed right and responsibility to see to the
education and raising of their children.
1. Each gens (clan) shall be registered with the censors, who
will maintain records of gens membership and other relevant information.
2. No two gentes may have the same nomen. The censors shall be
responsible for ensuring this rule is observed.
3. Each gens shall consist of a minimum of one domus (lineage).
4. No two domus within a gens may have the same cognomen
(surname). The censors shall be responsible for ensuring this rule is
observed.
5. Each familia shall have a paterfamilias and / or materfamilias
who shall act as the leader(s) of the family and speak for it when
necessary. The holder(s) of this position must be registered as such
with the censors. The paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may, at his,
her, or their discretion, expel members of his, her, or their familia,
accept new members into it by adoption, or allow members to form new
familiae belonging to the same order.
a. The paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may, at his, her,
or their discretion, exercise the rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B
of this Constitution on behalf of impuberes in his, her, or their
familia, with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph II.B.3.) and
the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph II.B.8.)."

[End text of Lex Equitia de Gentibus]


Schedule for the Contio and vote:

22 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio begins at dawn Roma time
23 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
24 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
25 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
26 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
27 Septembris (dies comitialis) At dawn (06:00) Roma time contio ends
and voting begins
28 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
29 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
30 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
1 Octobris (dies nefastus) Voting suspended at 00:01 Roma time
2 Octobris (dies fastus) Voting suspended
3 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting resumes at 00:01 Roma time
4 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
5 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting ends at dusk (18:00) Roma time


Please note that the time in Roma is Central European Time (CET), which
is six hours later than Eastern Standard Time in the United States, and
one hour later than Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29023 From: shiarraeltradaik Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Thank you
Salve!
Thank you my materfamilias for your warm welcome to me even before I
became a citizen. I want you to know that I am very proud to become a
citizen of Nova Roma. I don't understand a great many things but I am
determined to learn. I am also proud to be a member of the Gens
Sempronia.I swear my love and loyalty to my Gens.
Respectfully
Iusta Sempronia Iustina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29024 From: g_iulius_scaurus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Female Pontifices
G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I am in the process of completing a detailed study of gender taboos in the Religio Romana
and their relationship to the question of women serving as pontifices and flamines which I
hope to submit to the Collegium Pontificum within the next two weeks. After my
colleagues have had the opportunity to read the the report I shall be posting it to the main
list as well.

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29025 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete Quirites;
I've just returned from Dublin, and a very profitable time
doing research in the Trinity College Library, on such matters as
what does 'tradition' mean in our present discussion, where is sex a
vital factor in the Religio, and how did the Lex Domitia come about.

And I heartily endorse our good PM's advice to get Beard and
North's "Religions of Rome" very useful indeed, there is a nice long
discussion of the evolution of the Lex Domitia, also Beard's "Pagan
Priests", Ariadne Staples' "From Good Goddess to Vestal Virgin",

So I will not be presenting my opinion but solid scholarship, with
quotes and sources so we all can read and decide for ourselves.
bene vale in pace deorum
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29026 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Female Pontifices
Salve Scaure;
I look forward to it; would you kindly submit them to the cives and
the pontifices simultaneously. That way all of us can talk and read &
look up the references and engage in a worthwhile and learned
discussionl
optime vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "g_iulius_scaurus" <gregory.rose@g...>
wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> I am in the process of completing a detailed study of gender taboos
in the Religio Romana
> and their relationship to the question of women serving as
pontifices and flamines which I
> hope to submit to the Collegium Pontificum within the next two
weeks. After my
> colleagues have had the opportunity to read the the report I shall
be posting it to the main
> list as well.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29027 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Palladius writes:
Good Gods Cassius, the main reason for keeping the patrician/plebeian orders
was for **religious** reasons, because certain priesthoods require
patricians and some plebeians. Are you suggesting we toss that out too? I'm
sympathetic to a lot of what you say about womanpriesthoods, I haven 't made up my mind
one way or the other (you're
wrong that all Boni have a tacit acceptance of the no-woman priesthood
position) but you go too far in what you say here about patricians and plebeians.

Cassius respondit:
Frankly, Palladius, this isn't an issue I'm debating now. Athanasius raised
it simply to divert conversation away from the concept of women being
Pontifices and Flamens. My answer to him was flippant, rather than considered,
because I refuse to be dragged away from this gender issue and into an argment over
the religious roles of the Orders.

Palladius:
Traditional requirements were listed because we (that included you)
were interested in reviving the traditional Religio Romana--weren't
we? The orders exist in NR for religious reasons, not so certain
people can go around claiming they're bluebloods. The distinctions
were made for religious reasons, there is no practical difference
between patricians and plebeians in NR. We who are patricians lose a
lot of political power so we could properly establish the Religio. If
you remove the order specific priesthoods then you might as well
eliminate the orders completely for they will have no purpose. And
if we do that the question might be asked, just how much of ancient
Rome will we want to keep?

Cassius:
See above. I'm here to argue the Gender issue, not the Orders. Athanasius'
raising questions about the Orders has nothing at all to do with whether or not
50% of our population will have opportunity to lead the Religio. The
situation with the Orders is not at all similar even though there are historical
divisions by Order. Both Plebians and Patricians can be Pontifices and Flamens.


> Cassius:
> I'm actually more interested in consulting the Citizens on this
>issue as a "first step." You don't try to negotiate anything you
>haven't first determined your position on!

I find this a tad disturbing that the Gods' views should be
secondary.

Cassius:
The subject was "negotiating with the Gods." How often do you approach
negotiations with *anyone* without having a clear idea of what you are
negotiating for?

Palladius:
What if you consult the people, they're in favor and the
Gods say no? It would create a lot of dissension, especially among
that segment of the population who don't believe in the Gods (which
is why you've always opposed allowing the people to vote on
pontiffs). It's an ass-backwards way of doing things, if you'll
pardon the colloquialism. If "consultations" with the Gods and the
people must be done, start with the Gods.

Cassius:
Augury is actually a "yes or no" question. You decide what you want to do,
ask a specific question, and *then* determine the answer of the Gods. And, as
far as I'm aware, Augury does not supply a "forever" answer, either. In other
words, a properly phrased question would be "should women ever be
pontifices", but rather "should we allow women Pontifices during the period of XXX?"

The other difficulty with putting this issue up to one Augury only is that
our Collegium Augurum is staffed completely by Boni. If you go into an Augury
believing with all your heart and soul that women should not be Pontifices
and Flamens, my guess is that you're much more likely to get confirmation of
that from the Gods than not. I'm not at all saying that any of our Augurs would
do anything *deliberately*, but do feel that it would be so much easier for
anyone doing an Augury to get confirmation of what they already know to be
completely "right" than to be totally blown off their religious foundations by
recieving an answer they do not believe is possible. That's human
preconception and fallability for you.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29028 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/23/04 3:55:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> > question, both Caecilius Metellus and Iunius Palladius: if the
answer that one of our priests receives is in favor of women
pontifices, would you accept it?
> >
>
> And if they said "no," would you? The Gladius cuts both ways here.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus

Salve,

I'll be happy to answer that one for Cato. If an Augur who is a
member of the Boni, and who believes completely to his soul that
women should not be Pontifices or Flamens, should go before the Gods
and deem whatever small sign he might see as perfect confirmation
that the Gods support what he *already knows* to be unalterably and
eternally true...

Yeah, I'd probably have an issue with that. Most especially if this
one-time Augury was set so that it would determine the course of Nova
Roma's future forever.

I wouldn't believe that the Augur was lying for political reasons,
but I would certainly believe it were possible for the Augur's own
predispositions to get in the way, or possibly accidentally
misinterpret signs because of believing that there is only one
possible outcome.

I've heard from several sources that Auguries were not usually used
to determine long term courses, but rather were a yes or no for
immediate decisions. The same question could be asked again at a
later date.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29029 From: Susan Davis Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
> I was just wondering if there were any active Nova Romans in or
> around NY State's Capital District for a possible meeting? I'm at
> SUNY and don't have a car, but I could certainly find a way to get
> somewhere around here!

You're right around the corner (give or take 45 minutes) from the
Temple of Magna Mater in Palenville. Only two of us (Drusilla Iulia
Hibernia and I) have actually gotten around to joining NR just yet,
but for major holidays (such as Mysteria this weekend), the temple
grounds are positively crawling with Roman priestesses.

Vale,

Claudia Iulia
(packing for tomorrow's trip to the temple)

--
Claudia Iulia <futabachan@...>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29030 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-23
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Q. Caecilius Metellus C. Equitio Catoni salutem dicit

Salve,

> I understand and sympathize with what you have said, but
> unfortunately you have not used the quotation from our Constitution
> in its entirety, and the correct application changes the meaning of
> these words quite a bit. I quote you:
>
> "However, I do not, can not, and will not support women in
> any of these positions within our system for as long as we state
> ourselves to be 'dedicated to the... restoration of ancient Roman
> culture.' Let us first change our aim to something more in line
> with what you, Cassius, and some others desire, and my position will
> change, but for as long as our aim is what the introductory page of
> our website states, I will hold to my position, and voice
> it accordingly."
>
> Now, let's look at the full sentence from which you quote, and the
> one which follows immediately:

[...]

As Decius Iunius stated, and you accepted, you have misquoted me. While I did
not explicitely state that the quote came from the introductory page, I thought
the end of my paragraph had made that clear. But to move along swiftly....

> Now the sentence immediately follwing says that our culture shall
> be "patterned after" ancient Rome --- not a carbon copy, a simple
> transplanting of ancient Rome full-bore onto the 28th century, but
> rather that the "pattern" of ancient Rome is our guide. This idea
> coupled with the sentence about acceptability and practicality gives
> us the liberty to decide what is transplantable and what is not. I
> hold that barring women from the highest positions of social,
> religious, or political office is not.

Now, taking into consideration what you have just stated here, and the
constitutional quote, I wonder why I, and many others, am here. I know for what
I came here, I know why I have remained, but now, that I do agree that you are
correct, I wonder why I still remain. I came for Rome; I stayed for historical
accuracy and, more importantly, a historical reconstruction of the Religio; but
I am rapidly finding that at least the latter is not here, despite the efforts
of many. Seems I must get to drafting other things now.

Vale Bene,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29031 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus M. Cassio Juliano salutem dicit

Salve Marce Cassi,

> Athanasius:
> > Additionally, why not allow Plebeians to become Rex and Regina
> Sacrorum.
>
> Cassius:
> Why not? There is actually no difference between the Patricians and
> Plebians in Nova Roma.

Metellus:
No, there is no difference between the plebeians and the Patricians in Nova
Roma, though there probably should be. The Flamines Maiores remained
exclusively patrician, even after the "rise" of the plebeian order. There was a
reason behind this, as well as why the rex sacrorum remained a patrician
position, and if we are here to recreate the Religio (and, I confess, I no
longer know what our purpose is here, because we certainly are not recreating
Rome!), then we certainly should not, under any circumstances, go around
throwing away the traditions of our "ancestors."

> Athanasius:
> > The difference between a Flamen and a Pontifex is that the
> Pontifiex is primarily an administrative and legal priesthood, while
> the Flamen is sacrificial. For some reason the Gods have mandated
> men to hold the priesthood of Flamen, until this arrangement is re-
> negotiated I do not support woman Flamen (I have supported woman
> Pontifices).
>
> Cassius:
> The Flamines are part of the Collegium Pontificum, and participate in
> all decision making. They also are the "leaders" of the major cults,
> even though you're quite correct that they also have a specific role
> of sacrifice.

Metellus:
Really? I am not a member of the Collegium, and therefore do not get to see
exactly who votes, but if I have come to understand correctly, our Flamines do
not get votes in the Collegium, nor would our Augures, were they both not
pontifices as well. That being so, please enlighten me: How exactly, beyond
their own personal influence, do our Flamines "participate in all decision
making?"

I eagerly await your response.

Vale,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29032 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus C. Equitio Catoni Quiritibusque salutem dicit.

Salvete Cato et Omnes,

> But when push comes to shove, I agree --- someone, ask the gods what
> they want. Tell us the answer. And then let me ask you a question,
> both Caecilius Metellus and Iunius Palladius: if the answer that
> one of our priests receives is in favor of women pontifices, would
> you accept it?

As I responded to you privately, I want to say again publicly, for yet another
time to add to the numerous times I've said it before on this thread. If the
Gods say that they will accept women in roles which were traditionally male, I
will accept that. Similarly with males in positions which were traditionally
female, plebeians in positions which were traditionally Patrician, etc, etc. If
the Gods' will, however, is to maintain the traditional roles, I should want to
accept that as well, even if it would go so far as to prevent me from ever
holding a pontificate, and augurship, a consulship, the list goes on. I am
willing to accept the Gods' will, whatever it may be, without question of it.

Valete,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29033 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Salve Claudia Iulia,

> You're right around the corner (give or take 45 minutes) from the
> Temple of Magna Mater in Palenville. Only two of us (Drusilla Iulia
> Hibernia and I) have actually gotten around to joining NR just yet,
> but for major holidays (such as Mysteria this weekend), the temple
> grounds are positively crawling with Roman priestesses.

Don't forget to take some photo's! I'd love to see them.

Vale,
Diana

> (packing for tomorrow's trip to the temple)
I'm jealous!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29034 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
salve cato, as you know, i too reside in nyc and would
love a meeting. please do contact me off list on this
matter as soon as you can. vale.
--- mlcinnyc@... <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
> Salve, Diana.
>
> Living as I do in Manhattan, of course I'm
interested (I mentioned
> this a while ago). Please let me know how (or if) I
can help
> organize a meeting (I have some influence with
restaurants, museums,
> etc. by virtue of my job). The link provided is an
email link,
> though, not a link to the group?
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "meretrix4"
<meretrix@p...> wrote:
> > Salvete all,
> >
> > I am trying to organize a NR get-together between
Dec 26 and
> January
> > 2 in the NYC area. So far we have 4 citizens who
are interested in
> > getting together (Vedius, Palladius and Calvus).
But all citizens
> > in the NYC area are welcomed!
> >
> > We need to find a date that suits everyone, so
I've set up a
> > temporary Yahoogroup
> >
> > leden-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > ('Leden' means 'members' in Dutch). If you are
intersested in
> > getting together, please subscribe to the list.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Diana
>


=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29035 From: Diana Octavia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Getting together in NYC
Salve!

> salve cato, as you know, i too reside in nyc and would
> love a meeting. please do contact me off list on this
> matter as soon as you can. vale.

Great! The more the merrier! I also have to contact Merlinia Ambrosia who lives in NJ on the other
side of the Path train.

Send a blank email to leden-subscribe@yahoogroups.com where we'll shortly start to figure out a
date.

Vale,
Diana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29036 From: Marcus Cassius Julianus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus"
<postumianus@g...> wrote:
> Metellus:
> Really? I am not a member of the Collegium, and therefore do not
get to see exactly who votes, but if I have come to understand
correctly, our Flamines do not get votes in the Collegium, nor would
our Augures, were they both not pontifices as well. That being so,
please enlighten me: How exactly, beyond their own personal
influence, do our Flamines "participate in all decision making?"

Salve,

You are quite correct that at present the Flamines do not vote in the
Collegium Pontificum, and that their participation is strictly
through "their own personal influence." In other words, they have
opportunity to pose ideas of their own, speak out on any issue,
debate any subject, etc.

This does indeed make the Flamines far less 'powerful' than the
Pontifices in the Collegium. This is why I have refered to them as
being more or less the "second level" of Religio Romana
administration.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus



The Nova Religio Romana list: an "unofficial" Religio Romana group
for the discussion of modern Religio topics, Imperial religion,
Mystery Religions, Philosophy, Theurgy and more. URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaReligioRomana/ or subscribe by
sending a blank email to: NovaReligioRomana-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29037 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Absence
Salvete Omnes,

I will be travleing and largely out of internet access until
Wednesday September 29th.

Please address any official matters to my colleague Marcus Arminius
Maior.

Valete,

Gaius Popillius Laenas
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29038 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Avete;
1. let us define 'conservative' it means according to the ways of
Roma Antiqua during the Late Republic.

2. The Boni are not 'conservative'. Their political organization
is entirely modern in character and would not be allowed in
Republican Rome
a. the Collegium Pontificum of NR is a modern creation whose
powers and influence is utterly unlike the CP of Republican times.
example; the CP of NR claims to mediate between the people
and the gods. M. Beard, "Pagan Priests" p. 31

" the Senate mediated between the people and the gods."

3. So neither the Boni nor the CP are truly 'conservative'. What
it is, is 'elitist'. Now this is a thoroughly Roman concept.

4. ""That was the view of Livy, for example, who- from his early
Imperial standpoint- perceived the political stuggles of the early
Republic partly in terms of struggles against patrician monopoly of
religious knowledge and of accces to the divine.
"In the final stages of his account of "The Struggle of the
Orders," he gives a vivid picture of the passing of the Lex Ogulnia
in 300 BC., the law which gave plebians designated places in the
pontifical and augural colleges.
"The patricians, according to Livy,saw such a law as a
contamination of religious rites, and so liable to bring disaster on
the state; plebians regarded it as the necessary culmination of the
inroads they had already made....

"It would have made no sense in Roman terms to have claimed rights
to political power without also claiming rights to religious
authority and expertise." p.134-135 Beard and North "Religions of
Rome" ; the politics of Religion

5. So the Struggle between the Boni, who wish to hang onto their
power and prestige and that of the people is very Roman and very
Republican!

6. Now if we look at the above, that the struggle for political
power means also the struggle for religious power.

7. So it is entirely 'conservative' meaning in tune with the
history of the Roman Republic for women in Nova Roma who have access
to political power should battle to have access to religious power.

8. Now how were these historical struggles resolved? By proposing
and enacting laws and putting them to the vote by the people.
eg: 300 BC Lex Ogulnia
287 BC Lex Hortensia ( resolutions of the plebs alone
should have the force of law)
104 BC Lex Domitia

So cives having an augury about women is unhistorical! The
movement and development of change in Rome came about by legislature
and election.
This is the conservative way
this is the Republican way

bene valete in pace deorum
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29039 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
A. Apollonius Cordus Q. Caecilió Metelló amícó
omnibusque sal.

> .... There was a
> reason behind this, as well as why the rex sacrorum
> remained a patrician
> position, and if we are here to recreate the Religio
> (and, I confess, I no
> longer know what our purpose is here, because we
> certainly are not recreating
> Rome!), then we certainly should not, under any
> circumstances, go around
> throwing away the traditions of our "ancestors."

ItÂ’s sad to hear you so disheartened about this. I
canÂ’t say anything about religious matters, but let me
try to reassure you that in civil matters there are
many people making very serious efforts to recreate
Rome.

An easy example is to hand: cónsul Marinus has just
promulgated seven légés. Four (the léx dé géntibus,
the léx dé vígintísexvirís, the léx dé familiá, and
the léx dé júrisdictióne) bring our laws and
institutions significantly closer to – in many cases
directly in line with – ancient republican law and
practice, and a fifth (the léx dé tírócinió cívium
novórum) ensures that new citizens will enter the rés
pública with a minimal understanding of Roman history
and culture.

I see a lot here to be hopeful about.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29040 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
A. Apollonius Cordus omnibus sal.

Cassius Júliánus p.p. p.m. wrote:

> You are quite correct that at present the Flamines
> do not vote in the
> Collegium Pontificum, and that their participation
> is strictly
> through "their own personal influence." In other
> words, they have
> opportunity to pose ideas of their own, speak out on
> any issue,
> debate any subject, etc.

Just for the information of people following this
conversation: the three fláminés májórés (the fláminés
Diális, Martiális, and Quirínális) are voting members
of the collégium (at least, they were in the old
republic); it is the twelve fláminés minórés who are
not. In practice this makes no difference at the
moment because both the flámen Martiális and the
flámen Quirínális are also pontificés, so they can
vote anyway.

Oh, and another thing while IÂ’m here: someone was
asking whether the vestals were voting members of the
collégium. I haven’t found a definite answer (not that
IÂ’ve been looking very hard), but from what IÂ’ve read
(e.g. they were “closely associated” with it – Watson,
“The State, Law And Religion”; “other priests were
associated with the college – the Vestal Virgins, the
scribes of the pontificés, the twelve lesser fláminés”
– North, ch. 12 in Cambridge Ancient History vol. 7
(2nd ed.) part 2) it sounds like they were non-voting members.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29041 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete omnes.

A word of caution about any conclusions based on "Pagan Priests" by
M. Beard.

I refer you to a review of this book by the Bryn Mawr Classical
Review, Bryn Mawr College:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1991/02.02.01.html

I direct your attention in particular to the review of Beard's,
which the review appears to find wanting and lacking in a number of
areas, some of which relate directly to the matter in hand.

This book does not appear to be an overwhelmingly reliable source,
to say the least.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Avete;
<snipped>
M. Beard, "Pagan Priests" p. 31
>
> " the Senate mediated between the people and the gods."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29042 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: AF - Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete, roman people of the quirites,

I praise Ceres Mother and Diana, the patronessess of the Plebeians
and its sacrosainct magistrates, and Magna Mater and Concordia also,
by the awakening of such citizen like Arminia Fabiana.

This is an approuch each citizen and magistrates must take. Study,
Research, bring real information, with real references, with
politeness, with education, with good-manners. Be a true
conservative, make NR a better place. History shall have Imperium
Major here on this Republic, and the bloodly modern partisanship
trapped with hundred iron grip.

There isn´t more worthy work in this Republic than making Nova Roma a
real recreation of the Roman Republic, keeping the balance between
the powers, protecting the right of the magistrates, senate and
comitia.

To the gods of Rome, the true inspiration of these efforts, my most
heartful thanks by her good job. Arminia Fabiana, you are a pride to
our order and our gens, you are a jewel of Nova Roma, pride for the
plebeians, delight of the religio romana, you are most beloved by the
gods of Rome, and may they continue to shine each day more your path.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Tribunus Plebis

Fabiana, for you, a piece of Cicero ´Dream of Scipio´ into his
favourite book ´De Res Publica´.

"Concerning yourself (Scipio Aeminianus), never lose hope that you
might come back here one day. For this is the place which offers
great and magnificent men their true reward, for all fame or glory
you win among mere human beings should simply be ignored, since such
fame and glory can scarcely be said to be eternal if it cannot last
one Great Year. Fix your gaze upwards, then! Think on this place, a
dwelling place for all eternity! Then you will no longer have any use
for what the masses might say about you or for any human rewards your
achievements may merit. Rather, let Virtue herself, by her own unclad
beauty, call you to a true and genuine glory. Ignore what people say
about you, for they will say it anyway and whatever words they may
say will not pass beyond the narrow bounds you see below you. Nothing
anyone has ever said has ever abided, for when people die, their
words die, too; the future forgets them and tosses them on the
rubbish heap of oblivion.

(...)

Use this everlasting force, then, for the most resplendent deeds
possible! And remember that the most splendid deeds you can do are
those which serve your country. Those souls devoted to such deeds
will find it easy to wing their way to this place, which is the true
and genuine home for human souls.

(...)

At these words, (Scipio) Africanus vanished, and I awoke from my
sleep. "

Translated from the Latin by Richard Hooker
©1993, Richard Hooker
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ROME/SCIPIO.HTM



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Avete;
> 1. let us define 'conservative' it means according to the ways
of
> Roma Antiqua during the Late Republic.
>
> 2. The Boni are not 'conservative'. Their political organization
> is entirely modern in character and would not be allowed in
> Republican Rome
> a. the Collegium Pontificum of NR is a modern creation whose
> powers and influence is utterly unlike the CP of Republican times.
> example; the CP of NR claims to mediate between the people
> and the gods. M. Beard, "Pagan Priests" p. 31
>
> " the Senate mediated between the people and the gods."
>
> 3. So neither the Boni nor the CP are truly 'conservative'.
What
> it is, is 'elitist'. Now this is a thoroughly Roman concept.
>
> 4. ""That was the view of Livy, for example, who- from his early
> Imperial standpoint- perceived the political stuggles of the early
> Republic partly in terms of struggles against patrician monopoly of
> religious knowledge and of accces to the divine.
> "In the final stages of his account of "The Struggle of the
> Orders," he gives a vivid picture of the passing of the Lex
Ogulnia
> in 300 BC., the law which gave plebians designated places in the
> pontifical and augural colleges.
> "The patricians, according to Livy,saw such a law as a
> contamination of religious rites, and so liable to bring disaster
on
> the state; plebians regarded it as the necessary culmination of the
> inroads they had already made....
>
> "It would have made no sense in Roman terms to have claimed
rights
> to political power without also claiming rights to religious
> authority and expertise." p.134-135 Beard and North "Religions of
> Rome" ; the politics of Religion
>
> 5. So the Struggle between the Boni, who wish to hang onto
their
> power and prestige and that of the people is very Roman and very
> Republican!
>
> 6. Now if we look at the above, that the struggle for political
> power means also the struggle for religious power.
>
> 7. So it is entirely 'conservative' meaning in tune with the
> history of the Roman Republic for women in Nova Roma who have
access
> to political power should battle to have access to religious power.
>
> 8. Now how were these historical struggles resolved? By
proposing
> and enacting laws and putting them to the vote by the people.
> eg: 300 BC Lex Ogulnia
> 287 BC Lex Hortensia ( resolutions of the plebs
alone
> should have the force of law)
> 104 BC Lex Domitia
>
> So cives having an augury about women is unhistorical! The
> movement and development of change in Rome came about by
legislature
> and election.
> This is the conservative way
> this is the Republican way
>
> bene valete in pace deorum
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> scriba Iuris et
> Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29043 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio
Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus writes:
"Now, taking into consideration what you have just stated here, and the
constitutional quote, I wonder why I, and many others, am here. I know for
what
I came here, I know why I have remained, but now, that I do agree that you are
correct, I wonder why I still remain. I came for Rome; I stayed for historical
accuracy and, more importantly, a historical reconstruction of the Religio;
but
I am rapidly finding that at least the latter is not here, despite the efforts
of many. Seems I must get to drafting other things now."

Cassius respondit:

Would it interest you to know that unless you joined Nova Roma within the
last few months, the policy of the Collegium Pontificum has been to allow both
woman Pontifices and Flamines?

Both the Collegium Pontificum and the Flaminates have been open to women
since the founding of Nova Roma - a period of over five years. We have had *both*
female Pontifices and Flamens in the past. All have since quit their
Citizenship (as have an even greater number of male priesthood in the same offices,
btw!) due to politics and the incessant arguments between strict and moderate
reconstructionists - but the fact remains that the Boni have in fact set up a
*new* policy in Nova Roma.

This new policy of not considering applications from women for the offices of
Pontifex and Flamen has only been in place since the Boni gained majority
control of the Collegium Pontificum, making it not quite a year old.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus




The Nova Religio Romana list: an "unofficial" Religio Romana group for the
discussion of modern Religio topics, Imperial religion, Mystery Religions,
Philosophy, Theurgy and more. URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaReligioRomana/
or subscribe by sending a blank email to:
NovaReligioRomana-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29044 From: FAC Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
SAlvete Omnes,
congratulations Rutilius Bardulus, red champion, our hero!!!
Your victory give again to the Factio Russata the ancient glory and
honours. All the members and funs of the Russata thank and honour
you. During this week-end I'll drink a bottle of mulsum dedicated to
you and I hope that your victory would be the first of a long period.
Keep attenction, opponent, Russata is came back!

RUSSATA RA RA RA
RUSSATA RA RA RA

Congratulations to Aedile Marcus Iulius Perusianus. Great games,
Amice, thank you very much!

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Domunis Factionis Russatae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29045 From: Andrea Gladia Cyrene Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Albany NY Citizens?
Salve Ursus!

I lived in Guilderland three years ago. What a shame we didn't
connect then! I currently live just west of Boston.


Bene vale,
Andrea Gladia Cyrene


On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:48:24 -0000, fabruwil <fabruwil@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I was just wondering if there were any active Nova Romans in or
> around NY State's Capital District for a possible meeting? I'm at
> SUNY and don't have a car, but I could certainly find a way to get
> somewhere around here!
>
> Gratias multas,
>
> T. Aurelius Ursus




--
Materfamilias Gens Gladia et Apollonis Templi Sacerdotis
Nosce te ipsum ~ http://www.TempleApollo.com
Email: andrea.gladia.cyrene@...
Yahoo: andrea_gladia / kyreneariadne
AIM: A Gladia Cyrene / Kyrene Ariadne
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29046 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: AF - Women in the Religio Romana
L. Arminius Faustus writes:
This is an approuch each citizen and magistrates must take. Study,
Research, bring real information, with real references, with
politeness, with education, with good-manners. Be a true
conservative, make NR a better place. History shall have Imperium
Major here on this Republic, and the bloodly modern partisanship
trapped with hundred iron grip.

There isn´t more worthy work in this Republic than making Nova Roma a
real recreation of the Roman Republic, keeping the balance between
the powers, protecting the right of the magistrates, senate and
comitia.

Salve,

Well said, Faustus! I'll be looking forward to not only having women removed
from the Collegium Pontificum and the Flaminates, but also from the Senate,
magistrates, heads of families, and of course the rolls of Voting Citizens. I'll
also look forward to the return of the Client system, the return of Patria
Potestas powers for our all-male Paterfamiliae, and of course, the return of
slavery. Only then will we be *true* conservatives and reconstructionists,
rebuilding Rome to its exact ancient status.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Pontifex Maximus





The Nova Religio Romana list: an "unofficial" Religio Romana group for the
discussion of modern Religio topics, Imperial religion, Mystery Religions,
Philosophy, Theurgy and more. URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaReligioRomana/
or subscribe by sending a blank email to:
NovaReligioRomana-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29047 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Avete Quirites;
let all true lovers of Roma Antiqua read Livy X.6.1-9.2 for the
discussion of the struggle between the patricians's monopoly of
religious knowledge and access to the divine and the plebs.

Our struggle right now is the classic one between "'optimates and
populares ... religious debate too seems to have become increasingly
concerned with issues of control between aristocracy and people: with
attcks on the stranglehold of the optimates over priestly office-
holding and with attempts to locate religious (along with political)
authority more firmly in the hands of the people as a whole."
Beard & North "Religions of Rome" p.135

The historian Sallust saw this conflict exactly in the above terms
See Sallust, Jugurthine War 31.10

Finally Mary Beard is Reader in Classics in the University of
Cambridge, and Fellow fo Newnham College, John North Professor of
History, University College London. "Religions of Rome" is considered
the best modern work of the day on this topic.

I dedicate all this research to the finest Tribune of the Plebis,
a true lover of Roma Antiqua, devotee of the Religio, and light of
the Armini:
Lucius Arminius Faustus

bene valete
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29048 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato.

Salvete, omnes.

Iulius Caesar, interesting quotes from the review of Beard's book,
to which you gave us the link:

"It is true that Republican priests had no decision-making powers."

"Wissowa, in his Religion und Kultus der Roemer2 (1912), had shown
conclusively that Roman priests did not act as the representatives
of the gods on earth and were not defined as 'mediators'."

Valete,

Cato







--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes.
>
> A word of caution about any conclusions based on "Pagan Priests"
by
> M. Beard.
>
> I refer you to a review of this book by the Bryn Mawr Classical
> Review, Bryn Mawr College:
>
> http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1991/02.02.01.html
>
> I direct your attention in particular to the review of Beard's,
> which the review appears to find wanting and lacking in a number
of
> areas, some of which relate directly to the matter in hand.
>
> This book does not appear to be an overwhelmingly reliable source,
> to say the least.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Avete;
> <snipped>
> M. Beard, "Pagan Priests" p. 31
> >
> > " the Senate mediated between the people and the gods."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29049 From: Salix Cantaber Uranicus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Salvete, Apule Caesar.

> congratulations Rutilius Bardulus, red champion, our hero!!!
>
> (...)
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Domunis Factionis Russatae

Oh! Then the faction's webs isn't up-to-date. I saw that the Dominus factionum of the Russata was Apollonius Cicatix and not you.

Somebody should reprehend to the responsible one...

Vale.

Quintus Salix Cantaber Uranicus
Scriba Aedilis Ludorum - Cohortis Aedilis Marci Iuli Perusiani
Scriba Propraetoris - Aedilis Arenae Provinciae Hispaniae


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29050 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete omnes.

Of course Cato has employed his famous scissors and snipped the
other sentances that followed these partial quotes:

"I am not entirely convinced by B.'s general picture, particularly
as regards her hypothesis of the priests' lack of real power. It is
true that Republican priests had no decision-making powers. In Livy,
however, there are numerous instances of a group of priests advising
such-and-such, and their advice obviously was implemented, with no
mention of a senatus consultum: that a SC would be passed in
accordance with their findings is taken for granted by Livy (or his
source) (e.g. XXXI 12.9; XXXIV 55.3; XXXVI 37.4-6, etc.)."

and

"B. is not at all convincing in her lengthy discussion
of "mediation" between gods and men in Rome (pp. 28-34). Wissowa, in
his Religion und Kultus der Roemer2 (1912), had shown conclusively
that Roman priests did not act as the representatives of the gods on
earth and were not defined as "mediators". B. uses Wissowa's finding
as a point of departure for her own view: the Senate was "the body
which formed the focus of communication between gods and men" (p.
33); "the Senate, not the 'priests', largely fulfilled that
mediating function commonly regarded as distinctively priestly" (p.
34).

Here we see B. unfortunately imposing a modern concept on an ancient
society which did not share all our categories. The business of
priests in Republican Rome was to give advice on religious matters
(especially to magistrates and the Senate); the business of the
Republican Senate was to make decisions; the business of a higher
magistrate was to implement those decisions si ei e republica
fideque sua videretur (FIRA2 32), thereby giving them the force of
law."

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato.
>
> Salvete, omnes.
>
> Iulius Caesar, interesting quotes from the review of Beard's book,
> to which you gave us the link:
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29051 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
> Salve Caesar;
And what are the academic qualifications of that
reviewer?
Anyone can have an opinion.

vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29052 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: LUDI ROMANI: WINNWER of the FINAL RACE
Avete;
Eheu what a race! May Rutilus Bardulus rejoice in his victory!
and Viva Hispania!!:)

M. Arminia Maior Fabiana




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Salix Cantaber Uranicus"
<qsalixcant@y...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> > congratulations Rutilius Bardulus, red champion, our hero!!!
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29053 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Maior.

I think he has established credentials. I don't necessarily think he
is "anyone".

http://www.yale.edu/philos/people/brennan_tad.html

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Caesar;
> And what are the academic qualifications of that
> reviewer?
> Anyone can have an opinion.
>
> vale
> M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29054 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete Quirites,

Maior wrote:

>>Salve Caesar;
>
> And what are the academic qualifications of that reviewer?
> Anyone can have an opinion.

Indeed anyone can, and I'd encourage everyone participating in this
discussion to consider both the credentials of the sources quoted, and
the way that people structure their arguments.

We are all, with the exception of Q. Fabius and G. Iulius, amateur
historians here. That does not make us incapable of quality
investigation, but it should give us pause when we set out to understand
the writings of people who do this kind of historical research for a
living.

I think the Bryn Mawr review that Caesar cited was an excellent review,
though obviously one written by somebody who has professional reasons
for questioning some of the conclusions drawn in the essay. I simply
take that kind of cautionary statement at face value, and examine the
whatever issue is under discussion with a careful view toward the
opinions of other researchers too.

If we were discussing differences in the interpretation of Type Ia
supernovae, some people might read what Saul Perlmuter has to say and
others what David Branch has written. Those essays would disagree on
matters of interpretation, and a person predisposed to one or the other
interpretation might take that as an 'argument by appeal to authority'.
But in fact both researchers agree on much more than they disagree on.
The language of academic exchange can be subtle. (And for the record
I have been swayed more toward Saul in the past few years.)

I applaud the introduction of citations and research into our
conversations here. Let's please use this information in a scholarly
and inquiring way, and not try to jump on the first thing that happens
to support some pre-supposition of ours as evidence. The best thing
that we can learn from a deep study of the available knowledge
concerning Roma Antiqua is that there's much about Roma Antiqua that we
simply don't know. In our desire to create and sustain a resurgent
Roman republic we have to accept this. There simply is no blueprint
upon which we can model an exact replica of Roma Antiqua, and if we had
one we'd soon discover we didn't want it anyway.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29055 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Hmmm, so what are some reliable texts on this subject. I myself would like to learn much more indepth stuff regarding this subject, the Religio in general, rather than know the fringe information like I do know. I saw some on the Nova Roma main site but are there others of quality as well? Vale, Quintus Cassius Brutus

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:Salvete omnes.

A word of caution about any conclusions based on "Pagan Priests" by
M. Beard.

I refer you to a review of this book by the Bryn Mawr Classical
Review, Bryn Mawr College:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1991/02.02.01.html

I direct your attention in particular to the review of Beard's,
which the review appears to find wanting and lacking in a number of
areas, some of which relate directly to the matter in hand.

This book does not appear to be an overwhelmingly reliable source,
to say the least.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Avete;
<snipped>
M. Beard, "Pagan Priests" p. 31
>
> " the Senate mediated between the people and the gods."



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29056 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Religio Romana references
Salvete Quirites,

Quintus Cassius Brutus wrote:

> Hmmm, so what are some reliable texts on this subject.

_An Introduction to Roman Religion_
by John Scheid and Janet Lloyd

_The Gods of Ancient Rome : Religion in Everyday Life from Archaic to
Imperial Times_
by Robert Turcan

_Religions of Rome: Volume 1, A History_
by Mary Beard, John North, and Simon Price

_Religions of Rome: Volume 2, A Sourcebook_
by Mary Beard, John North, and Simon Price

_Roman Religion: A Sourcebook_
by Valerie Warrior

_Dictionary of Roman Religion_
by Lesley Adkins, Roy A. Adkins, Roy Adkins

_The Oxford Classical Dictionary_
by Simon Hornblower, Antony Spawforth

Several of these are available via the Macellum at
http://novaroma.org/macellum/bookstore.html and I hope that any citizen
wanting to purchase a copy would buy through that link, since it'll
bring in a little extra cash for the republic.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29057 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
- Ave;
so your 'expert' is an associate professor vs.Prof. Mary Beard who is
a Cambridge Professor and Fellow and author of the most prominent
book on Roman Religion today?


But cives let us not be distracted by side issues:

Look for yourselfs in Livy X.6.1, 6-9,12

Read about the Lex Ogulnia, the Lex Hortensia, Lex Domitia

Here is an entire article explaining voting in the Lex Domitia:
"The aedileship of Favonius, Curio the younger, and Cicero's
election to the augurate" HSCPh 76 (1972)91-12


Finally what is this nonsense about 'sexual taboos'? So far I know
only the Vestals, Flamen Dialis, and Rex sacrorum are special cases.

Religious positions were part of political power, see Livy's
discussion of the repeal of the Oppian Law, to permit women to wear
gold, purple cloth:

"what then think you must be the feelings of little women who
are affected by small things.
"Magistracies, priestly functions, triumphs, military
decorations and rewards, spoils of war - none of these fall to their
lot." Livy, 34,7

Also Hortensia in arguing that women should not pay a special tax at
the time of the triumvirs says:
"Why should we pay taxes when we have no part in the honours,
the commands, the statecraft, for you which you contend against each
other with such harmful results." Appian, Civil Wars4.32-4

Also see Cicero, Republic 1.43.6

Again I quote from Beards "Roman Religion"

"It would have made no sense in Roman terms to have claimed rights
to political power without claiming rights to religious authority and
expertise." p135

Let all true conservative Republicans, let all women, all
Populares, claim their political power and rights to become flamens,
pontifices and augurs!

M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
pro plebibus et respublica
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29058 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete Quirites, et salve Arminia Maior,

Maior wrote:

> so your 'expert' is an associate professor vs.Prof. Mary Beard who is
> a Cambridge Professor and Fellow and author of the most prominent
> book on Roman Religion today?

Let's please refrain from this sort of pointless comparison. A person's
academic rank should not be a consideration when examining the worth of
their work. Isaac Newton accomplished more as an undergraduate than
most tenured professors of physics do today. The quality of the work is
what counts, not the academic rank of the person doing it.

> But cives let us not be distracted by side issues:

I agree. Let's please not be.

Valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29059 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Virus Alert
Salvete Omnes !

Gallia's team was tested by particularly dangerous viruses. Please,
be careful if you receive mails with the part-joined following files:

_ you_will_answer to me. cpl
_nervous_illnesses.cpl
your_money.cpl
the_message.cpl
_Your_are_dismissed.cpl
text_document. cpl
MoreInfo.cpl
Details.cpl

Do NOT open them, do NOT save them on disk: Destroy the message !

Valete !

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29060 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Ave Marine;
you are right;
Gnaee Caesar I apologize to you. Sometimes I fall back into law
school type argument which is inappropriate.

Let us discuss history with sources and also expert opinion. We all
will benefit, I know I have learned a lot from my two good friends
Faustus and Cordus.

vale
Arminia Maior Fabiana

Isaac Newton accomplished more as an undergraduate than
> most tenured professors of physics do today. The quality of the
work is
> what counts, not the academic rank of the person doing it.
>
> > But cives let us not be distracted by side issues:
>
> I agree. Let's please not be.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29061 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Maior.

Thank you for the apology. I didn't take your post personally :)
Discussing history can become emotive and I don't think Nova Roma is
unique in that respect. Amateur lists outside of NR are awash with
discord on the most obscure of points and I am sure academics
themselves can get a little carried away. I too also remember a few
moots that got rather heated :)

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Ave Marine;
> you are right;
> Gnaee Caesar I apologize to you. Sometimes I fall back into law
> school type argument which is inappropriate.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29062 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Ave Gnaee Iuli;
I appreciate your forbearance, I like the new post-Peace list
Maior;) and I really love our thoughtful Main List discussions. So
thanks and cives I apologize to you all as well. Let our Main List
remain a place of quality discussion and respectful exchange.
bene vale
Maior


- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Maior.
>
> Thank you for the apology. I didn't take your post personally :)
> Discussing history can become emotive and I don't think Nova Roma
is
> unique in that respect. Amateur lists outside of NR are awash with
> discord on the most obscure of points and I am sure academics
> themselves can get a little carried away. I too also remember a few
> moots that got rather heated :)
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Ave Marine;
> > you are right;
> > Gnaee Caesar I apologize to you. Sometimes I fall back into
law
> > school type argument which is inappropriate.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29063 From: Lucius Iulius Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Interview the Expert: Slavery in Ancient Rome
AVETE CIVES!

Our monthly appointment with Interview the Expert: thanks to
Academia Italica you can interview a famous expert about Ancient
Rome just sending me your questions about the chosen theme.

This month our Expert will be Prof A. Giardina, one of the most
important historian in Europe.
Prof. Andrea Giardina (Palermo 1949) teaches roman history at the
University of La sapienza, Rome. He is the president of the Istituto
italiano per la storia antica. Among his recent works and
publications: 'L'Italia romana. Storie di un'identità incompiuta',
Laterza, Roma-Bari 1997 (terza ed. 2004). 'Il mito di Roma da Carlo
Magno a Mussolini' (in collaboration with A. Vauchez), Laterza, Roma-
Bari 2000; french ed.: 'Rome, l'idée, le mythe', Fayard, Paris 2000.
His volume 'L'uomo romano' (the Roman Man) is at its nineth italian
edition and has been translated into english, spanish, portugese,
german, polish and some other languages. He also wrote 'Roma
antica', second ed. Laterza, Roma-Bari 2003.

Prof. Giardina will answer to questions about: "Slavery in Ancient
Rome".

Send me here your questions: 21aprile AT email DOT it.
You have just one month to solve your doubts!

Now, give a look to our web page:
http://www.novaroma.org/expert/index.htm

VALETE!
L IUL SULLA
Rector Academiae Italicae
Quaestor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29064 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato.

Salvete, omnes.

Actually, Iulius Caesar, I was pointing out that even the professor
whose review you admired recognized that the roman priesthoods did
not act as mediators, nor did the Republican priesthoods have
decision-making powers. Your own authority supports a return to an
un-political religious authority, as Apollonius Cordus has pointed
out in some detail, if the res publica is going to try to be truly
historical in that respect.

Vale et valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Of course Cato has employed his famous scissors and snipped the
> other sentances that followed these partial quotes:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29065 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Cato.

I never advanced the suggestion that they were mediators. That must
be your point, not mine.

As for their being un-political, if you re-read the review what he
actually says in essence is that there was no need for priests to be
political, since the "political" machinery of the state acted upon
their "advice" accordingly. If the climate of the time was that the
Collegium of antiquity could automatically rely on its advice being
followed, then correspondingly there was no need for it to
become "political".

The most important lesson to draw from that comment is that in Rome
of Antiquity the Collegium didn't have to constantly face an
unoffical inquistitorial panel pouring over its every move and
questioning its motives. Roman magistrates of the day and the senate
accepted their advice at face value, and translated that if required
into force of law. The Collegium in Nova Roma is of course not so
fortunate.

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato.
>
> Salvete, omnes.
>
> Actually, Iulius Caesar, I was pointing out that even the
professor
> whose review you admired recognized that the roman priesthoods did
> not act as mediators, nor did the Republican priesthoods have
> decision-making powers. Your own authority supports a return to
an
> un-political religious authority, as Apollonius Cordus has pointed
> out in some detail, if the res publica is going to try to be truly
> historical in that respect.
>
> Vale et valete,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> <gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes.
> >
> > Of course Cato has employed his famous scissors and snipped the
> > other sentances that followed these partial quotes:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29066 From: Maior Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Ave;
why was that; and why is the CP in NR not so fortunate?

1. Our CP is entirely unhistorical,
A. the cives through dint of their own research are discovering
this turn of events
B. Except for the PM, the Boni have been in charge

Beard points out from Republican priesthood lists, "there were
unwritten principles;

a) no gens holds more than one place in any college at the
same time
b) no individual holds more than one priesthood

this is a striking example of the sharing of power, honour and
responsibility." "Religions of Rome" p. 103

Since these conditions do not exist - substitute Boni for Gens,
since the CP is aloof and refuses to answer questions, since they act
unhistorically, they with the exception of our kind and popular
Pontifex Maximus

do not enjoy the confidence or respect of the people

vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

>
> The most important lesson to draw from that comment is that in Rome
> of Antiquity the Collegium didn't have to constantly face an
> unoffical inquistitorial panel pouring over its every move and
> questioning its motives. Roman magistrates of the day and the
senate
> accepted their advice at face value, and translated that if
required
> into force of law. The Collegium in Nova Roma is of course not so
> fortunate.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29067 From: Quintus Cassius Brutus Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
"so your 'expert' is an associate professor vs.Prof. Mary Beard who is a Cambridge Professor and Fellow and author of the most prominent book on Roman Religion today?"

--Umm, the important thing here is not someone's credentials as it is the quality of there research. You can have all the titles and credentials in the world but that does not mean someone is impervious from having flawed research. I'm not going to comment on whether Prof. Beard's research is quality or not. But, the issue is here is not quality of the research, sources used, and what flaws are there in any of the research done. An associate Prof can do just as quality of a research project as a "Cambridge Professor and Fellow..." Don't assume an individual who has all the credentials in the world is incapable of doing flawed research.

Vale, Quintus Cassius Brutus



__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29068 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caeso quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve Iulius Caesar, et salvete omnes.

The fact is, Caesar, that whether or not there was a perceived "need"
or not in ancient Rome, the priests did not have the power to make
decisions; the powers our College of Pontiffs currently exercize are
unhistorical. Just because our College of Pontiffs cannot expect to
be obeyed "automatically" does not give them the right to assume
powers which were never theirs for the taking and still claim any
kind of historical foundation; our citizenry is not as malleable as
that of ancient Rome, and that is a fact that the CP must learn to
deal with.

So you are left either defending the unhistorical assumption of the
powers that the CP has been given, or you can make your claims for a
truly "historical" res publica more real by urging the College to
renounce those powers and assume its proper place within Republican
Roman society. This is NOT an attack on the CP in and of itself; it
was given unhistorical powers by the Founders of the Republic, and it
is not the fault of those currently in it that this is so. However,
those in the CP who declare their unswerving devotion to "strict
reconstruction" should then voluntarily relinquish those unhistoric
powers in the interest of creating a more historic res publica.

Valete,

Cato




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Cato.
>
> I never advanced the suggestion that they were mediators. That must
> be your point, not mine.
>
> As for their being un-political, if you re-read the review what he
> actually says in essence is that there was no need for priests to
be
> political, since the "political" machinery of the state acted upon
> their "advice" accordingly. If the climate of the time was that the
> Collegium of antiquity could automatically rely on its advice being
> followed, then correspondingly there was no need for it to
> become "political".
>
> The most important lesson to draw from that comment is that in Rome
> of Antiquity the Collegium didn't have to constantly face an
> unoffical inquistitorial panel pouring over its every move and
> questioning its motives. Roman magistrates of the day and the
senate
> accepted their advice at face value, and translated that if
required
> into force of law. The Collegium in Nova Roma is of course not so
> fortunate.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
> <mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> > O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato.
> >
> > Salvete, omnes.
> >
> > Actually, Iulius Caesar, I was pointing out that even the
> professor
> > whose review you admired recognized that the roman priesthoods
did
> > not act as mediators, nor did the Republican priesthoods have
> > decision-making powers. Your own authority supports a return to
> an
> > un-political religious authority, as Apollonius Cordus has
pointed
> > out in some detail, if the res publica is going to try to be
truly
> > historical in that respect.
> >
> > Vale et valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > <gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> > > Salvete omnes.
> > >
> > > Of course Cato has employed his famous scissors and snipped the
> > > other sentances that followed these partial quotes:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29069 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Maior.

It appears the (short) period of mutual good humour has ended :)

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Ave;
> why was that; and why is the CP in NR not so fortunate?
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29070 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
come on folks- theres no need to get petty and ruin an
otherwise classy discussion.
--- quintus_cassius@...
<quintus_cassius@...> wrote:
>
> "so your 'expert' is an associate professor vs.Prof.
Mary Beard who is a Cambridge Professor and Fellow and
author of the most prominent book on Roman Religion
today?"
>
> --Umm, the important thing here is not someone's
credentials as it is the quality of there research.
You can have all the titles and credentials in the
world but that does not mean someone is impervious
from having flawed research. I'm not going to comment
on whether Prof. Beard's research is quality or not.
But, the issue is here is not quality of the research,
sources used, and what flaws are there in any of the
research done. An associate Prof can do just as
quality of a research project as a "Cambridge
Professor and Fellow..." Don't assume an individual
who has all the credentials in the world is incapable
of doing flawed research.
>
> Vale,
Quintus Cassius Brutus
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>


=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





_______________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29071 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Cato.

We appear to be straying from a historic analysis into the realms of
Nova Roman politics. Maybe it is better if we both stick firmly to
the historic analysis for awhile?

Vale
Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caeso quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Salve Iulius Caesar, et salvete omnes.
>
> The fact is, Caesar, that whether or not there was a
perceived "need"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29072 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salvete omnes

I would like to point out, in fairness, that for me Maior's post
didn't even cause me an ounce of offence and as our Consul addressed
it promptly and Maior did kindly respond, I think this is a dead
matter.

Valete
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, raymond fuentes
<praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
> come on folks- theres no need to get petty and ruin an
> otherwise classy discussion.
> --- quintus_cassius@y...
> <quintus_cassius@y...> wrote:
> >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29073 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Thank you
---Salve Iusta Sempronia!

Welcome to Nova Roma. You have picked a wonderful gens and have
found a prized materfamilias in Iulla Sempronia Magna.

Vale,
Pompeia Minucia Tiberia Strabo
AKA 'Po' for short

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "shiarraeltradaik"
<shiarraeltradaik@y...> wrote:
> Salve!
> Thank you my materfamilias for your warm welcome to me even before
I
> became a citizen. I want you to know that I am very proud to
become a
> citizen of Nova Roma. I don't understand a great many things but I
am
> determined to learn. I am also proud to be a member of the Gens
> Sempronia.I swear my love and loyalty to my Gens.
> Respectfully
> Iusta Sempronia Iustina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29074 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2004-09-24
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
---Salvete Omnes:

My comments are generalized and I guess this is as good a place as
any to offer my two sestertii.

With respect to women holding roles as Pontifices,
Flamen, ..basically Religious positions of high administration,or
any high administration for that matter:

I think buried within the quest to substantiate which gender, if not
both, could or could not fill what role and when, we erroneously
overlook one common element of antiquita, which was by no means
exclusive to *Roma*herself: women, by and large, in most areas of
the world were subservient to men..they were not considered equal.
Even Cicero called us 'of lesser intelligence' Was he saying this of
his own daughter, and his own wife Terrentia? Likely not. He
apparently had quite a regard for his daughter's abilities. He was
making a statement consistent with the ingrained beliefs and social
moors of the day...which were rather consistently and 'universally'
adopted, save for perhaps, some of the celtic tribes, as claimed by
some, the claims of which I can not empirically dispute.

I have difficulties with the argument that 'traditionally'omen did
not hold _______position in the Religio Romana. No, I don't imagine
they were in the CP...and I don't imagine they were in the high
rankhood of most Flaminships. No recorded female Consuls..no tales
of their riding alongside Scipio, or Caesar as legate either. Was
this in keeping with tradition we can claim was exclusively Roman?
No, it was exclusive of the entire world at the time. You will never
find historical rationale as to why women were not chosen as
administrative priests high up in the rungs of the Religio...save
the gender-specific Vestals.

Why are we looking for it?

Unlesswe can historically substantiate from a religious rationale
that specific religious roles were gender related for them to
function as they were ordained, we cannot claim to be basing
gender/religio decisions, or gender decisions period, on Roman
tradition. We are not constructing tradition that is exclusively
Roman, are we? Are we not instead reconstructing an antiquated
subservience to women and sex-typing practised as part of a general
worldwide social milieu that we have since well evolved from?

I can certainly understand the Religious rationale for gender-
specific concerns regarding a couple of the Flamineships and the
Vestal Virgins. I know also that in 209 B.C. the Cult of the Magna
Mater became prominently patronized by women, an effort initiated by
Matrona of Rome. Ceres was patronized heavily by women (livy
XXVII11,1-16, 37.4-15). But this did not mean that men could not
patronize Ceres in a sacredotal position, that I can see. This was
a tradition among women, it was not a religious position specific to
a gender. I know the Sacerdotes Liberi was an elderly women
offering cakes on a portable alter during Liberalia, Mars 17. That
could be considered gender specific yes.

Where was the role of Pontifex or the role of many
Flamenships 'religously"dependent on gender, is what I am asking?

With due respect, we must be careful to identify what it is we are
actually endeavoring to reconstruct and why. I cannot help but
recall that the Roman pantheon is significantly populated by
GodESSes.


With concern and not antagonism
Pompeia



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus"
<postumianus@g...> wrote:
> Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus M. Cassio Juliano salutem dicit
>
> Salve Marce Cassi,
>
> > Athanasius:
> > > Additionally, why not allow Plebeians to become Rex and Regina
> > Sacrorum.
> >
> > Cassius:
> > Why not? There is actually no difference between the Patricians
and
> > Plebians in Nova Roma.
>
> Metellus:
> No, there is no difference between the plebeians and the
Patricians in Nova
> Roma, though there probably should be. The Flamines Maiores
remained
> exclusively patrician, even after the "rise" of the plebeian
order. There was a
> reason behind this, as well as why the rex sacrorum remained a
patrician
> position, and if we are here to recreate the Religio (and, I
confess, I no
> longer know what our purpose is here, because we certainly are not
recreating
> Rome!), then we certainly should not, under any circumstances, go
around
> throwing away the traditions of our "ancestors."
>
> > Athanasius:
> > > The difference between a Flamen and a Pontifex is that the
> > Pontifiex is primarily an administrative and legal priesthood,
while
> > the Flamen is sacrificial. For some reason the Gods have
mandated
> > men to hold the priesthood of Flamen, until this arrangement is
re-
> > negotiated I do not support woman Flamen (I have supported woman
> > Pontifices).
> >
> > Cassius:
> > The Flamines are part of the Collegium Pontificum, and
participate in
> > all decision making. They also are the "leaders" of the major
cults,
> > even though you're quite correct that they also have a specific
role
> > of sacrifice.
>
> Metellus:
> Really? I am not a member of the Collegium, and therefore do not
get to see
> exactly who votes, but if I have come to understand correctly, our
Flamines do
> not get votes in the Collegium, nor would our Augures, were they
both not
> pontifices as well. That being so, please enlighten me: How
exactly, beyond
> their own personal influence, do our Flamines "participate in all
decision
> making?"
>
> I eagerly await your response.
>
> Vale,
>
> Quintus Caecilius Metellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29075 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.

Salve, Caesar.

I was not "straying" anywhere, Iulius Caesar --- I was walking
firmly and with utter purpose into "Nova Roman politics", because
that is the *point* of this discussion.

So, do you feel that the CP should continue to utilize the
unhistoric powers it has been granted, or that the CP should
voluntarily relinquish them with the aim, and in the interest, of
creating a more strictly reconstructionist College?

Vale,

Cato





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@y...> wrote:
> Salve Cato.
>
> We appear to be straying from a historic analysis into the realms
of
> Nova Roman politics. Maybe it is better if we both stick firmly to
> the historic analysis for awhile?
>
> Vale
> Caesar
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29076 From: philipp.hanenberg@web.de Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: Nuntii Latini (2)
Ph.Fl.Conservatus Maior omnibus salutem dicet

Here some news for you (beside all the heated debates on the ML).
Maybe some of you will find the time to read and understand :-)

Bene vale



Hu Jintao novus dux
24.9.2004

Sinenses novum ducem acceperunt, cum pristinus praesidens Jiang Zemin a re publica recedere decrevit et in locum eius Hu Jintao substitutus est.

Quantum hic vir apud suos iam valeat, vel inde patet, quod ei tria munera administrativa maximi momenti collata sunt.

Die Dominico enim Hu Jintao toti exercitui Sinarum praefectus est, cum iam antea et summus moderator factionis communistarum et praesidens civitatis electus esset.

De persona eius nihil certi constat praeterquam quod libenter cantare solet, teniludio mensali delectatur et memoriam quasi photographicam habet.

-----------------------------------

Commeatus aerius Iraquiae
24.9.2004

Hac septimana Societas aeria nationalis Iraquiae, cui nomen Iraqi Airways, volatus internationales resumpsit.

Hoc factum est anno quinto decimo, postquam sanctiones Iraquiae iniunctae effecerant, ut Iraquia a commeatu huius generis excluderetur.

Primum quidem iter ex urbe Bagdato Ammanam, in urbem principem Iordaniae, susceptum est eo solo aeroplano, quod illa societas in praesenti habet.

-----------------------------------

Nova cohors paci tuendae
24.9.2004

Quinque nationes Unionis Europaeae, scilicet Francogallia, Italia, Hispania, Portugallia et Hollandia, nuntiaverunt se copias speciales coacturas esse, quarum esset ordinem in regionibus variis discriminibus afflictis custodire.

Propositum est, ut haec cohors, postquam anno bis millesimo quinto (2005) exeunte ad agendum parata esset, ex octingentis fere militibus constaret et intra unum mensem, si res posceret, quoquo versus ad pacem tutandam mitteretur.

Ministri, cum de indole huius legionis cogitarent, exemplum e biocolytis Francogalliae et carabinariis Italiae sibi sumpserunt.

-----------------------------------

Terrae motus in Mari Baltico
24.9.2004

Die Martis post meridiem regio Maris Baltici duobus motibus terrae affecta est.

Epicentrum eorum erat in mari ante urbem Kaliningradum patente, sed tremor sismicus etiam in multis Finniae partibus sentiebatur.

Sic in suburbiis Helsinkii orientalibus, ut in Vuosaari et Herttoniemi, fenestrae habitationum aliquamdiu tinniebant. Arctopoli autem, in urbe Finniae occidentali, accidit, ut campanae cuiusdam ecclesiae sua sponte sonare inciperent.

-----------------------------------

Pellicula de Adolfo Hitler
24.9.2004

In Germania pellicula cinematographica producta est, quae dictatorem Adolfum Hitler in munimento subterraneo Berolinensi ultimis vitae diebus degentem facit.

Quod opus nomine ?Der Untergang? a criticis quidem laudatur, sed multi Germani naturam dictatoris in illa taeniola nimis humanam figuratam esse reprehendunt.

Bernd Eichinger autem, productor pelliculae, respondit sibi ne propositum quidem fuisse spectaculo suo Adolfum Hitler diabolum describere.


(all news by Reijo Pitkäranta yleradio1)

_________________________________________________________
Mit WEB.DE FreePhone? mit hochster Qualitat ab 0 Ct./Min.
weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29077 From: Julia Cybele Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: To Venus Genetrix, on Her festival, 26 September
<http://www.aztriad.com/veneri.html>

In the Roman calendar, 26 September is the date honoring Venus
Genetrix as divine ancestor...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29078 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: 1st UPDATE - Comitia Populi Tributa Convened
Salvete Quirites,

We have one more day of Contio before the voting begins. Find below new
versions of the Lex Equitia de Vigintisexviri (Latin added), and the Lex
Equitia de Familiae, with some minor edits which have resulted from
feedback provided by reviewers.

Valete,

Gn. Equitius Marinus

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, augur Gaius Modius Athanasius has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia.
The augury being favorable, I call the Comitia Populi Tributa for the
purpose of voting on the following laws.


LEX EQVITIA DE TIROCINIO CIVIVM NOVORVM

I. A. Vt pater aut materfamilias personam gentilem tollat et magistratus
proprios quibus praestat cives in album referre de hac approbatione
certiores faciat, civitas Novae Romae ilico coepit.

I. A. Nova Roman citizenship begins at the instant a pater or
materfamilias recognizes a person as a member of his or her Nova
Roman familia and informs the appropriate Nova Roman
magistrates in charge of citizen registration of this recognition.

B. Ad familias nuper creatas quarum patres vel matresfamiliarum
cives novi sunt, civitatem simul recipientes ac familias
constituentes
in album referentesque, censoribus probantibus civitas incipit.

B. In the case of newly-created familiae whose patres or
matresfamiliarum are new citizens receiving citizenship at the same
time as the familiae are being formed and registered, citizenship
begins with the approval of the Censors.

II. A Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII, omnes cives novi Novae Romae
tirocinio ut minimum nonaginta dierum subicientur, per quod eis iura
publica non licebit; nec suffragium ferant, nec aliquem honorem
publicum
petant.

II. Beginning Kalendis Ianuarias, MMDCCLVIII, all new citizens of Nova
Roma shall be subject to a probationary period of at least 90 days,
during which they will not be allowed the 'iura publica', the right
to vote and to stand for any public office.

III. A. Post nonaginta dies, cum civis novus periculum probationis
simplicis de rebus magni momenti civitati Novae Romae,
rudimentisque historiae, religionis, linguae, consuetudinum
civiliumque Romanorum subeat et approbetur, tirocinium
conficiet.

III. A. The probationary period will end when 90 days have passed and the
new citizen has taken and passed a simple examination covering
elementary matters of Nova Roman citizenship and basic Roman
history, religion, language, and social practices.

B. Petitore roganti, haec probatio in promptu erit versa in omnes
linguas quibus interpretes periti Novae Romae adsunt.

B. This examination shall be made available, upon request of the
applicant, in any of the languages for which Nova Roma has
qualified translators.

C. Probatio a censoribus vel magistratibus aliis designatis a
censoribus excoletur, et quotannis a Senatu recensebitur.

C. The examination will be developed by the Censors or such other
magistrates as the Censors may designate, and shall be reviewed
annually by the Senate.

D. Exercitia a censoribus vel talibus aliis e lege praescriptis
notabitur.

D. The examination will be graded by the Censors or by such other
persons as may be directed by law.


IV. A. In rebus raris, haec necessaria omnino vel partim a Senatu
remittentur.

IV. A. These requirements may be wholly or partially waived by the
Senate in exceptional circumstances.

B. Nullo pacto circumscribantur; exempla immunitatum talium autem
includant:

B. Examples of such exceptions would include, but not be
limited to:

1. Petitores qui cives peregrini municipi vel oppidi sex
menses
fuerunt.

1. Applicants who have been peregrine citizens of a municipium
or oppidum for 6 months.

2. Petitores qui cives peregrini municipi vel oppidi qui
duumviri, aediles, vel magistratus suffragiis creati
delecti
sunt.

2. Applicants who are peregrine citizens of municipia or
oppida
who have been elected to an elective office such as
duumvir
or aedilis.

3. Petitores a magistratu curuli provinciae praesidenteve
commendantur.

3. applicants sponsored by a curule magistrate, including
provincial governors.

4. Petitores qui potestates raras academicas professionisve
habent.

4. Applicants with exceptional academic and professional
qualifications.

V. A. Civibus impuberibus qui post Kalendas Ianuarias MMDCCLVIII
participes Novae Romae erunt et qui nondum duodeviginti annos
nati sunt periculum probationis subeant usque ad nonaginta dies
ante diem natale duodevicesimum suum licet.

V. A. Minor citizens who join Nova Roma after Kalendis Ianuarias,
MMDCCLVIII and who have not yet reached 18 years of age may take
the examination up to 90 days before their 18th birthday.

B. Periculo probationis praemature subeundo et superando non liceat
suffragia ferant aut honores petant ante diem natalem suum
duodevicesimum.

B. Taking and passing the examination early will not entitle them to
vote or stand for office before their 18th birthday.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA DE TIROCINIO CIVIVM NOVORVM]

This next law corrects an overly punitive provision of an old law which
has recently proven damaging to the health of our Republic by needlessly
penalizing citizens who have contributed greatly to Nova Roma. I don't
yet have the Latin translation of this law available, but the English
text is provided for voter review.


LEX EQUITIA DE CIVITATE EIURANDA

I. The Lex Cornelia et Maria de civitate eiuranda is hereby amended as
follows:

A. Section III is hereby annulled.

B. Section V is hereby altered to read as follows:

1. The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire
citizenship, must apply in the same fashion as any other person desirous
of citizenship would, with the exception that he/she is directed to
state in his/her application the reasons behind his/her resignation and
decision to reverse the resignation and come back. His/her Roman name
may be resumed if no other citizen of Nova Roma has taken it up in
his/her absence.

2. As offices are de facto resigned when Citizenship is
resigned, no public offices held at the time of resignation
automatically carry over to the returning citizen, with the exception of
any religious title and corresponding century points that may be
specified by the Collegium Pontificum.

3. Any titles, honors and effects of past offices, or century
points carry over to the returning citizen only after a period of six
months, with the exception of any religious title and corresponding
century points that may be specified by the Collegium Pontificum.

4. Senatorial status may be resumed at the discretion of the
Censores collegially.

5. Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the
discretion of the pater or materfamilias.

C. Section VI is hereby altered to read as follows:

1. If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and
resigns a second time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from
reinstatement.

II. Any Citizen who has, in the past, fallen under the effect of the Lex
Cornelia et Maria de civitate eiuranda, shall be treated as being under
the effect of these amendments.

III. The amended Lex Cornelia et Maria de civitate eiuranda shall be
held to apply to any individual who has resigned their Citizenship since
the founding of the Republic on March 1, 1998 CE, regardless of whether
or not it had or had not been passed prior to that time.

[End text of LEX EQUITIA DE CIVITATE EIURANDA]

The next law was already presented in contio, but due to an error
in the Cista the populous was not able to vote on it during the
last voting interval. Therefore I present it again. Please note
that it repeals three existing laws, replacing them all with this
one. Again, the Latin text is not yet available, but I provide
the English text for your review.


LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS

Praeambulatio


Romae antiquae, vigintisexviri magistratus minores erant, qui negotia
translaticia rei publicae administrandae tractabant. Novae Romae nomen
VIGINTISEXVIRORVM magistratibus minoribus conservamus, nec vigintisex
postulantes, nec viris solis hos magistratus definientes.

Preamble

In Roma Antiqua, the Vigintisexviri--literally, 'the twenty-six
men'--were minor magistrates who handled much of the routine
administrative business of Rome. In Nova Roma, we preserve the title
VIGINTISEXVIRI for minor magistracies, without requiring twenty-six, and
without restricting these magistracies to men.

I. A. Ex hac, Lex Vedia Vigintisexviri, Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus, et
Lex Equitia de Mutandis Appellationibus Duorum Magistratuum Minorum
abrogantur.

I. A. The Lex Vedia Vigintisexviri, Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus, and Lex
Equitia de Mutandis Appellationibus Duorum Magistratuum Minorum are
hereby repealed.

B. Omnes leges, decreta, edictaque Novae Romae memorantes magistratus
vigintisexvirorum retractantur, ut inscriptionibus infra definitis utantur.

B. All Nova Roman laws, decrees, and edicts which make reference to
magistrates of the Vigintisexviri are revised to use the titles defined
below.

II. E Constitutione Novae Romae, magistratus minores in numero
vigintisexvirorum definiuntur:

II. In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma, the following
minor magistracies are defined within the category of Vigintisexviri:

A. Magister aranearius. Magister situs interretialis.

A. Webmaster.

1. Magister aranearius descriptioni, tuitioni, mutationique
alicui situum interretialium publicorum Re Publica editorum praestabit.

1. The magister aranearius shall be responsible for the
design, maintenance, and any alteration of the official web site(s)
sponsored by the State.

2. Magister aranearius scientiam ab aliis magistratibus
institutisque Novae Romae ambiet de rebus quae in sitibus
interretialibus insunt.

2. The magister aranearius shall solicit input from the other
magistrates and institutions of Nova Roma regarding content for the web
site.

3. Licebit magistro araneario scribas suos creare, si necesse
habet.

3. The magister aranearius shall have the authority to
appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary.

B. Editor Commentariorum--Editor Novorum Scriptorum.

B. Editor of Written News.


1. Editor commentariorum producendis, foras efferendis,
distribuendisque editionum publicarum editarum Re Publica praestabit.

1. The editor commentariorum shall be responsible for the
production, publication, and distribution of the official publications
sponsored by the State.

2. Editori commentariorum licebit scribas suos creare, si
necesse habet.

2. The editor commentariorum shall have the authority to
appoint his own scribae, should he deem it necessary.

C. Rogatores. Magistratus ad consignandos suffragium ferentes.

1. a. Vsque ad Kalendas Ianuarias MMDCCLVIII, quattuor rogatores
curae electionibus et in curiis suffragiis in tabulas referendis
praestabunt.

1. a. Until the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005),
four rogatores shall be responsible for the administration of elections
and the recording of votes among the curiae.

b. Licebit rogatori cuique scribas suos creare, si necesse habet.

b. Each rogator shall have the authority to appoint his own
scribae, should he deem it necessary.

c. Inopia sui numeri ipsa vel societatis gnavae quattuor
rogatorum electionem propriam infirmare vel differre non sufficiet.

c. The lack of a full complement of, or the active
participation of, four rogatores shall not in and of itself be
sufficient to invalidate or postpone a particular election.

d. Rogatores munera su inter se ratione eis idonea et usui
describant.

d. The rogatores may divide their duties amongst themselves
as they see fit and practical.

e. Cum e definitione rogatores singulorum rationis electionis
conscii sunt, dum in munere rogatorum manent, non licebit rogatoribus
munera aliqua suffragiis creata petant.

e. Since the rogatores are by definition privy to the
details of the election process, they may not run for any elective
office while they serve in office as rogatores.

2. a. A Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII, duo rogatores ministri
censoribus creabuntur, praestantes eis qui ius suffragi ferendi habent
consignandis, leges eis suffragium ferentibus proponentibus, et
rationibus petitionum translaticiarum civitati administrandis.

2. a. Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January
2005), two rogatores shall be elected to act as subordinate magistrates
to the censores, responsible for registering qualified voters, issuing
voter codes, and administering the routine citizenship application process.

2. b. Per intervalla temporis in quibus nulli censores officio
praestant, rogatores conservationem translaticiam Albi Civium Albi
Gentiumque cum magistro araneario exsequantur.

b. During intervals when no censors are serving in office, the
rogatores may carry out the routine maintenance of the Album Civium and
the Album Gentium in concert with the magister aranearius.

c. Licebit rogatori cuique scribas suos creet, si necesse habet.

c. Each rogator shall have the authority to appoint his own
scribae, should he deem it necessary.

C. Diribitores--Suffragiorum computatores.

1. A Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII, usque ad quattuor diribitores
suffragiis in curiis enumerandis praestabunt.

1. Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January
2005), up to four diribitores shall be responsible for the counting of
votes among the curiae.

2. Inopia sui numeri ipsa vel societatis gnavae quattuor
diribitorum electionem propriam infirmare vel differre non sufficiet.

2. The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation
of, four diribitores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to
invalidate or postpone a particular election.

3. Custodibus approbantibus, diribitores munera sua inter se modo
eis idoneo et usui describant.

3. The diribitores may divide their duties among themselves as they
see fit and practical with the approval of the custodes.

4. Cum e definitione diribitores singulorum rationis electionis
conscii sunt, dum in munere diribitorum manent eis non licebit munera
aliqua suffragiis creata petant.

4. Since the diribitores are by definition privy to the details of
the election process, they may not run for any elective office while
they serve in office as diribitores.

5. Diribitores modo suffragia enumerabunt, nec suffragia paria
constituant.

5. Diribitores shall only count votes, and shall not engage in any
tie-breaking.

E. Custodes. Iudices Electionum.

1. A Kalendis Ianuariis MMDCCLVIII, duo custodes recognoscendis
tesseris suffragiorum in electionibus eis a diribitoribus relatis
praestabunt, suffragia paria in centuriis tribusque statuentes, et
exitus electionum centuriis tribusve magistratibus electionibus
praesidentibus praebentes.

1. Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005),
two custodes shall be responsible for certifying the tally of votes in
elections as reported to them by the diribitores, breaking any ties
among the centuries and tribes, and providing the results of elections
to the magistrates presiding over the elections.

2. Cum e definitione custodes singulorum rationis electionis
conscii sunt, dum in munere custodum manent, eis non licebit munera
aliqua suffragiis creata petant.

2. Since by definition the custodes are privy to the details of the
election process, they may not run for any elective office while they
serve in office as custodes.

3. Inopia ipsa sui numeri vel societatis gnavae amborum custodum
electionem propriam infirmare vel differre non sufficiet.

3. The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation
of, both custodes shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate
or postpone a particular election.

4. Si eis placeat, custodes suffragiis enumerandis diribitores
adiuvent.

4. Custodes may, if they choose, assist the diribitores in the
vote-counting process.

5. Si nulli diribitores sint, custodes munera diribitorum
suscipiant dum satis diribitorum creati sunt.

5. In the event that there are no diribitores, the custodes
shall assume the duties of diribitores until sufficient diribitores have
been elected.

III. Magistratus minores, omnes vigintisexviri Ius Edicendi habebunt,
ius edictorum edendorum in finibus munerum suorum.

III. As minor magistrates, all vigintisexviri shall possess the Ius
Edicendi, the right to publish edicta within the scope of their
magisterial duties.

IV. A. Omnes vigintisexviri a Comitiis Populi Tributis in electionibus
anniversariis creabuntur.

IV. A. All vigintisexviri shall be elected by the Comitia Populi Tributa
during the annual elections.

B. Spatium normale munerum vigintisexvirorum annus erit.

B. The normal term of office for the vigintisexviri shall be one year.

C. Magistratus vigintisexviri suffecti creati ad substituendos
magistratus qui in muneribus manere non possunt usque ad finem anni in
quo sunt creati servient.

C. Suffectus (replacement) vigintisexviri magistrates elected to
replace magistrates who are unable to continue in office shall serve
until the end of the year in which they are elected.

V. Si magistratus minores ulli vigintisexvirorum vacui fiant post Idus
Septembres anno proprio, licebit Senatui suffectum facere ut magistratu
reliquum anni fungatur magis quam comitia in Comitiis Populi Tributis
habeant.

V. If any of the minor magistracies of the vigintisexviri become vacant
after the Ides of September in a given year, the Senate may appoint a
suffectus to fill that magistracy for the remainder of the year in lieu
of holding an election in the Comitia Populi Tributa.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS]

The fourth law offered is a comprehensive Family Law lex which
implements a number of practices from Roma Antiqua within Nova
Roma. This lex is the compliment of the constitutional amendment
offered in the Comitia Centuriata as the Lex Equitia de Gentibus.

LEX EQUITIA DE FAMILIA


I. Legal Status
a. Every citizen is either sui iuris (in his own power) or alieni
iuris (in another's power).
b. Any citizen who is a paterfamilias (father of the household) or
a materfamilias (mother of the household) is sui iuris; any citizen who
is sui iuris is a paterfamilias or materfamilias.
c. Any citizen who is a filiusfamilias (son in power) or a
filiafamilias (daughter in power) is in the patria potestas (hereafter
'potestas') of his or her paterfamilias and / or materfamilias.
d. A wife who is married cum manu is in the manus of her husband;
if her husband is a filiusfamilias she is also in the potestas of her
husband's paterfamilias and / or materfamilias. If her husband is sui
iuris, he is her paterfamilias; if her husband is alieni iuris, his
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias is / are her paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias.
e. Any citizen who is in potestas or in manus is alieni iuris.


II. Familiae
a. A familia (household) consists of a paterfamilias and everyone
who is in his potestas or manus; or a materfamilias and everyone who is
in her potestas; or a paterfamilias and a materfamilias together in a
free marriage and everyone who is in their shared potestas.
b. Within this law, the phrase 'paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias' means the paterfamilias where he has sole potestas over
his familia, or the materfamilias where she has sole potestas over her
familia, or both heads of household where they share potestas over their
familia.
c. Within this law, the phrase 'paterfamilias or materfamilias'
means the paterfamilias where he has sole potestas over his familia, or
the materfamilias where she has sole potestas over her familia, or
either one of the heads of household where they share potestas over
their familia.
d. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias hold(s) potestas over
his, her, or their legal descendants (except those who have been
emancipated, married cum manu into another familia, or adopted into
another familia) and the wives cum manu of those legal descendants.
e. A male citizen who is sui iuris is the paterfamilias of all
those in his potestas or manus; a female citizen who is sui iuris is the
materfamilias of all those in her potestas.
f. Potestas cannot be shared except by two citizens who are married
to one another in a free marriage and are both sui iuris. Where two or
more citizens who are sui iuris but are not married to one another in a
free marriage have a claim under this law to potestas over another
citizen, the praetores may decide the matter, giving potestas to
whichever party is best able to fulfill the duties and exercise the
rights of a paterfamilias or materfamilias towards the person concerned.
g. For the purpose of family law, and with regard to their familia,
a sui iuris citizen couple in a free marriage who share potestas are
treated as a single legal person, and any action taken by one of them by
virtue of their potestas is considered a join action by both together.
For all other purposes each remains individually answerable at law for
his or her own actions.

III. Rights & Duties of Patria Potestas & Manus
a. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may make legal contracts and
transactions, and acquire, hold, and dispose of property and contractual
rights, benefits, and obligations, on behalf of his or her familia or
its individual members.
b. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may give or withold specific or
general consent for members of his or her familia to make legal
contracts or transactions, or acquire or dispose of property or
contractual rights, benefits, or obligations.
c. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may regulate the conduct of
members of his or her familia by means of rewards and punishments. No
officer or organ of the state shall interfere either to assist or to
prevent the imposition of punishment by a paterfamilias or materfamilias
upon a member of his or her familia.
d. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias hold(s) responsibility
for the upbringing, education, good conduct, and well-being of those in
his, her, or their potestas or manus.
e. A paterfamilias or materfamilias who is out of contact with
their familia for at least 13 continuous months may be ruled unable to
function in their capacity as head of family by the Praetores upon the
request of their family members. Upon such a ruling any existing will
filed by the missing person shall become effective.

IV. Legal Capacity
a. A citizen who is alieni iuris has no legal capacity to make or
witness any legal contract or transaction, or to acquire or dispose of
property or contractual rights, benefits, or obligations, except with
the explicit consent (whether specific or general) of his or her
paterfamilias or materfamilias.
b. A citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no
legal capacity to make or witness any legal contract or transaction, or
to acquire or dispose of property or contractual rights, benefits, or
obligations, except through his or her tutor or tutrix.
c. Anyone who, having entered into such a contract or transaction,
later discovers that the other party was at the time alieni iuris and
acting without the necessary consent, has 60 days to petition the
praetores for the restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo
ante; if he or she does not, it is considered that he or she
has reaffirmed that contract or transaction as between himself or
herself and the paterfamilias and / or materfamilias of the original
party.
d. Any paterfamilias or materfamilias who discovers that anyone in
his or her potestas or manus has entered into such a contract or
transaction without the necessary consent has 60 days to petition the
praetores for the restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo
ante; if he or she does not, it is considered that he or she has
reaffirmed the contract or transaction as between himself or herself and
the other party.
e. Anyone who, having entered into such a contract or transaction,
later discovers that the other party was at the time sui iuris but below
the age of 18 and not acting through his or her tutor or tutrix, has 60
days to petition the praetores for the restoration, as nearly as
possible, of the status quo ante; if he or she does not, it is
considered that he or she has reaffirmed that contract or transaction.
f. Any tutor or tutrix who discovers that his or her pupillus or
pupilla has entered into such a contract or transaction without acting
through him or her has 60 days to petition the praetores for the
restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo ante; if he or she
does not, it is considered that he or she has reaffirmed the contract or
transaction.

V. Legal Action
a. A citizen who is alieni iuris may not be party to legal action
except where explicitly provided by lex, decretum, edictum, or
senatusconsultum.
b. If a citizen who is alieni iuris commits an offence, his or her
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias are liable for it; if, in such a
case, the paterfamilias' and / or materfamilias' failure to prevent the
commission of the offence was due to his or her unavoidable physical
absence, the praetor may, at his or her discretion, include in the
formula an exceptio (defence) or vis maior (insurmountable
necessity).
c. If anyone commits an offence against or incurs a legal
obligation to a citizen who is alieni iuris, the latter's paterfamilias
or materfamilias may take legal action on his or her
behalf.
d. A tutor or tutrix may represent and act on behalf of his or her
pupillus or pupilla in legal matters, but is not personally liable for
the offences of the pupillus or pupilla.
e. No one shall be held legally liable for any offence except one
who was legally liable at the time.

VI. Changes In Legal Status
a. A filiusfamilias or filiafamilias becomes sui iuris if he or she
is emancipated.
b. A filiusfamilias or filiafamilias becomes sui iuris if he or she
has no legal ascendant who is a citizen.
c. A wife cum manu becomes sui iuris if her marriage is dissolved.
d. A wife cum manu becomes sui iuris if her husband dies or loses
his citizenship.
e. A citizen who is alieni iuris becomes sui iuris if he or she is
or becomes a flamen, rex sacrorum, a pontifex, or a civil magistrate.
f. A paterfamilias or materfamilias becomes alieni iuris if he or
she is adopted by adrogatio.
g. A matefamilias becomes alieni iuris is she is married cum manu.

VII. Marriage
a. If two people live together with affectio maritalis (marital
affection), i.e., regarding themselves as married to one another, their
relationship is a free marriage.
b. If a male and a female citizen live together for a full year
with affectio maritalis without the woman being absent from their home
for three or more nights in a row, they may declare their relationship a
marriage cum manu contracted by usus. Without such declaration their
marriage remains a free marriage.
c. If a male and a female citizen undergo the ceremony of coemptio
in the presence of five witnesses who have the capacity to witness legal
transactions, their relationship is a marriage cum manu contracted by
coemptio.
d. If a male and a female citizen of whom one is a patrician or a
member of the collegium pontificium undergo the ceremony of confarreatio
in the presence of the pontifex maximus, their relationship is a
marriage cum manu contracted by confarreatio.
e. If two people are married to one another under the law of the
state in which they live but meet none of the criteria set out in VII.a,
b, c, or d, their relationship is a free marriage.
f. If a materfamilias marries cum manu, those in her potestas are
transferred to the potestas of her husband.

VIII. Dissolution Of Marriage
a. If a person in a free marriage notifies his or her spouse in
writing that he or she wishes the marriage to end, that marriage is
dissolved. If, however, both spouses regain affectio maritalis within a
year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as if there had been no
dissolution.
b. If a person in a free marriage contracts a new marriage in any
of the ways set out in VII, the former marriage is dissolved. If,
however, the original spouses regain affectio maritalis within a
year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as if there had been no
dissolution.
c. If a husband married cum manu by coemptio or by usus emancipates
his wife, the marriage is dissolved. If, however, the spouses retain
affectio maritalis or regain affectio maritalis within a year of the
dissolution, the marriage resumes as a free marriage.
d. If a couple married cum manu by confarreatio undergoes the
ceremony of diffareatio, the marriage is dissolved. If, however, the
spouses retain affectio maritalis or regain affectio maritalis within a
year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as a free marriage.

IX. Prohibited Marriages
a. No marriage may exist if either party is younger than 18 years.
b. No marriage may exist between a citizen and his or her legal or
biological ascendant or descendant.
c. No marriage may exist between a citizen and his or her legal or
biological collateral relative if either party is fewer than two degrees
removed from their common ascendant; except that a marriage between
adoptive collateral relatives may exist if at least one party is sui iuris.
d. No marriage may exist between a citizen and the former spouse of
his or her legal or biological ascendant or descendant, or between a
citizens and the legal or biological ascendant or descendant of his or
her former spouse.

X. Emancipation
a. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may emancipate a person,
thus releasing him or her from potestas or manus, provided that he,
she, or they notify the praetores of the emancipation, and provided that
five witnesses who have the capacity to witness legal transactions also
notify the praetores that they bear witness.
b. A citizen who is alieni iuris and whose paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias refuses(s) to emancipate him or her may petition the
praetores; if the praetores, after consulting with the paterfamilias and
/ or materfamilias, consider the refusal unreasonable, they may declare
the petitioner sui iuris.

XI. Adoption
a. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may adopt by adrogatio
another citizen who is sui iuris provided that the adoptive parent(s) is
/ are at least 18 years older than the adopted child, and provided that
the adoptive parents(s) and the adopted child all notify the pontifex
maximus of their consent, and provided that the pontifex maximus
consents, and provided that the comitia curiata bears witness (without
right of refusal).
b. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may adopt by adoptio
another citizen who is alieni iuris provided that the adoptive parent(s)
is / are at least 18 years older than the adopted child, and provided
that the adoptive paterfamilias and / or materfamilias and the former
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias all notify the praetores of their
consent, and provided that five witnesses who have the capacity to
witness legal transactions also notify the praetores that they bear witness.
c. A citizen adopted by adrogatio becomes the legal child of the
adoptive parent(s) and passes into his, her, or their potestas, and
ceases to be the legal child relative of his or her former relatives
except those in his or her potestas or manus; anyone in the potestas or
manus of the adopted child becomes the legal descendant of the adoptive
parent(s) in whatever relationship is appropriate to the new
relationship between the adopted child and the adoptive parent(s),
and passes into the potestas of the adoptive parent(s).
d. A citizen adopted by adoptio becomes the legal child of the
adoptive parent(s) and ceases to be the legal relative of his or her
former relatives, and passes from the potestas of his or her former
paterfamilias and / or materfamilias into the potestas of the adoptive
parent(s).
e. A citizen adopted by adrogatio or by adoptio takes the name of
his or her adoptive father (or, if there is no adoptive father, the name
of his or her adoptive mother), adjusted to his or her gender as
appropriate, and adds an agnomen formed from his or her former nomen
with the ending -ianus or -iana (e.g., Salix becomes Salicianus, Equitia
becomes Equitiana). Any other relatives transferred from one familia to
another by adrogatio also change their names in the same way.

XII. Tutela
a. Any citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 must
have a tutor or tutrix (guardian); a citizen who has a tutor is referred
to as a pupillus or pupilla.
b. If a citizen is emancipated by his or her paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias, his or her former paterfamilas and / or materfamilias is
/ are his or her tutor, tutrix, or tutores, unless during the
emancipation process it is explicitly stated in the notification to the
praetores and explicitly witnessed by all the witnesses that one of the
witnesses it to be tutor instead.
c. If a citizen is emancipated by the praetores, the praetores must
appoint a tutor or tutrix.
d. If a citizen becomes sui iuris on the death of his or her
paterfamilias or materfamilias, and if in a valid will the deceased has
nominated an eligible citizen as tutor or tutrix, the nominated citizen
has 30 days from the time when the will takes effect to accept the
nomination; if he or she does not, he or she is considered to have refused.
e. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no
tutor under XII.b, XII.c, or XII.d, his or her nearest eligible legal
relative is tutor or tutrix, without right of refusal; if several
eligible legal relatives are equally closely related, they are joint
tutores.
f. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no
tutor under XII.b, XII.c, XII.d, or XII.e, the praetores may appoint a
consenting eligible citizen to be tutor or tutrix.
g. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has
need of a temporary tutor or tutrix (for instance while waiting for a
tutor nominated in a will to accept, or to take legal action on behalf
of the pupillus or pupilla against the latter's regular tutor or
tutrix), the praetores may appoint a consenting eligible citizen to be
tutor or tutrix for a specified period or until a specified condition be
fulfilled.
h. To be eligible to be a tutor or tutrix a person must be a full
citizen over the age of 18, sui iuris, and not prohibited from doing so
by a court judgement of the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.
i. A tutor or tutrix may make legal contracts or transactions,
and acquire, hold, and dispose of property and contractual rights,
benefits, and obligations, on behalf of his or her pupillus or pupilla,
but only in such a way as to conserve or increase the property and
contractual rights and benefits of his or her pupillus or pupilla.
k. A tutor or tutrix must make arrangements and, if necessary,
financial provision for his or her pupillus' or pupilla's education and
upbringing.
l. When a pupillus or pupilla reaches the age of 18 his or her
tutor or tutrix is relieved or his or her duties and must surrender to
the pupillus or pupilla any property or contractual rights, benefits, or
obligations acquired or held on his or her behalf.
m. If a pupillus or pupilla enters the potestas of another citizen,
his or her tutor is relieved of his or her duties and must surrender to
the new paterfamilias and / or materfamilias any property or contractual
rights, benefits, or obligations acquired or held on behalf of the
pupillus or pupilla.

XIII. Succession
a. Any citizen who is sui iuris and aged 18 or above, and who is
not prohibited from doing so by a court judgement or the ruling of a
magistrate with imperium, may make a legal will.
b. A will is invalid unless witnessed by five citizens who have the
capacity to witness legal transactions, and unless the testator was of
sound mind at the time when the will was written, and unless the will
clearly names as heir at least one citizen who is sui iuris (or becomes
sui iuris on the testator's death) and not prohibited from acting as
heir by a court judgement or the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.
c. A citizen named as heir in a valid will may refuse up to 30 days
after discovering that he or she has been named as heir. The will may
name another eligible citizen as secondary heir in case the primary heir
refuses, and so on indefinitely. If no heir so named accepts, the will
is invalid. A citizen who becomes sui iuris as a result of the death of
the deceased may not refuse the inheritance.
d. If a paterfamilias or materfamilias dies without leaving a valid
will, any citizens who become sui iuris as a result of the death become
heirs without right of refusal; if no citizens become sui iuris as a
result of the death, the nearest eligible legal relative(s) become(s)
heir(s), each having the right to refuse up to 30 days after discovering
that he or she is heir; if there are no eligible legal relatives
prepared to accept the inheritance, the inhertiance passes to the gens
of the deceased and may be disposed of by agreement of the
patresfamilias and matresfamilias of the gens.
e. If more than one person is heir and the will, if there is one,
does not state in what proportions they are to share the inheritance,
the inheritance is shared equally; except that if there is no valid will
and the heirs are those who have become sui iuris as a result of the
death, stirpitial representation applies as in ancient law. If one
person who is named co-heir in a will refuses the inheritance, his or
her share goes to the other heirs in proportion to their existing shares.
f. The heir(s) inherit(s) any property and contractual rights,
benefits, and obligations which were held by the deceased and within the
jurisdiction of Nova Roma, and must put into effect the instructions
given by the deceased in any valid will except any instructions which
are illegal, immoral, or impossible; and must assume responsibility for
the familial sacra of the deceased.

XIV. Remedies
a. Any citizen who has the legal capacity to take legal action may
bring an action under the lex Salicia iudiciaria, or whatever lex shall
supersede it, against a paterfamilias and / or materfamilias for
seriously and consistently failing in his, her, or their duties to his,
her, or their familias or a particular member of it. The praetor shall
direct in his or her formula that if the reus, rea, or rei be found
guilty his, her, or their familia or a particular member of it be
removed from his, her, or their potestas or manus and, if necessary,
placed under the tutela of a tutor or tutrix. The praetor may include
other penalties at his or her discretion.
b. Any citizen who who has the legal capacity to take legal action
may bring an action under the lex Salicia iuridiciaria, or whatever lex
shall supersede it, against a tutor or tutrix for failing in his or her
duties to his or her pupillus or pupilla. A pupillus or pupilla may
petition the praetores to appoint a temporary tutor or tutrix to bring
such an action on his or her behalf. The praetor shall direct in his or
her formula that if the reus be found guilty his pupillus or pupilla be
removed from his or her tutela and placed under the tutela of another
tutor or tutrix. The praetor may require the reus or rea to make
restitution for any avoidable diminution of the property or contractual
rights or benefits of the pupillus or pupilla and to meet personally any
contractual obligations incurred by the tutor or tutrix on behalf of the
pupillus or pupilla, and may include other penalties at his or her
discretion.

XV. New Citizens
a. A new citizen entering Nova Roma as the legal child of another
citizen takes that citizen's nomen and cognomen, and may choose a
praenomen and agnomina subject to the approval of his or her new legal
parent and of the magistrates tasked with citizen registration. A new
citizen entering Nova Roma as the legal child of a married citizen
couple takes the nomen and cognomen of his or her legal father, and may
choose a praenomen and agnomina subject to the approval of his or her
new legal parents and of the magistrates tasked with citizen registration.
b. A person who is the biological child of a citizen or of a
married citizen couple, or who is the legally adopted child of a citizen
or of a married citizen couple according to the law of the state in
which he or she lives, shall have the right to become a citizen as the
legal child of that citizen or married citizen couple.
c. A new citizen entering Nova Roma as a paterfamilias or
materfamilias takes the nomen appropriate to his or her gens and a
cognomen not already held by any member of that gens.

XVI. Miscellaneous Provisions
a. To have capacity to witness a legal transaction a person must be
a citizen, sui iuris, aged 18 years or above, and not prohibited from
doing so by a court judgement of the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.
b. All citizens retain those rights guaranteed in the Constitution
of Nova Roma. The rights of alieni iuris citizens may be exercised on
their behalf by their paterfamilius, materfamilius, tutor, or tutrix,
except where an alieni iuris citizen is petitioning a Praetor directly.
c. No citizen may vote in comitia for another citizen, regardless
of familial status, unless a proxy statement has been filed by the
citizen granting a voting proxy. This proxy statement must be filed with
the presiding magistrate of the comitia during the contio period prior
to the vote.
d. The praetores may clarify, supplement, and interpret this law
with reference to the relevant provisions and practices of republican
Roman law, and with reference to the principles of justice and equity,
as was done by the praetores of antiquity.

[End text of LEX EQUITIA DE FAMILIA]

The fifth law defines the jurisdiction of the praetors and provides
for provincial promagistrates to act as legal authority in legal
cases where all involved citizens reside within their province.

LEX EQVITIA DE IVRISDICTIONE

This law is enacted in order to further define the term "competence" as
used in the lex Salicia iudiciaria.

I. The praetores shall have competence to grant trial in any matter
between citizens (or in any matter between a citizen and a peregrinus or
between peregrini provided that the conditions set in the lex Salicia
poenalis article VII.B are observed), with the following exceptions:

a. The praetores shall not grant trial against a reus who is a
sitting magistrate.
b. The praetores shall not grant trial against a reus who is a
former censor or a former dictator regarding any action taken by that
person in the course of his duties as censor or dictator.

II. Whenever a praetor shall receive a petitio actionis regarding which
he is forbidden by this lex from granting trial, he shall dismiss the
petitio actionis under the lex Salicia iudiciaria article II.a.

III. The governor of a provincia shall have competence to grant trial in
any matter between citizens who live in that provincia (or in any matter
between a citizen and a peregrinus who both live in that provincia or
between peregrini who both live in that provincia provided that the
conditions set in the lex Salicia poenalis article VII.B are observed).

a. In such cases, all laws concerning the administration of
justice shall apply as usual, any reference to the praetor or the
praetores being construed as referring to the governor.
b. Should the praetores receive any petitio actionis concerning a
matter which is between two citizens who live in the same provincia, or
between a citizen and a peregrinus who live in the same provincia, or
between two peregrini who live in the same provincia, they shall pass
the petitio to the governor of that provincia.
c. Should a petitio submitted to a governor be dismissed by that
governor, or should the governor fail to respond to such a petitio
within 120 hours (5 days) of its submission, the petitioner may submit
the same petitio to the praetores, and the praetores may deal with the
petitio as under the lex Salicia iudiciaria and all other relevant laws.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA DE IVRISDICTIONE]


=================================================================

The presidium shall be Fabia (Tribe I).

Schedule for the Contio and vote:

22 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio begins at dawn Roma time
23 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
24 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
25 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
26 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
27 Septembris (dies comitialis) At dawn (06:00) Roma time contio ends
and voting begins
28 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
29 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
30 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
1 Octobris (dies nefastus) Voting suspended at 00:01 Roma time
2 Octobris (dies fastus) Voting suspended
3 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting resumes at 00:01 Roma time
4 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
5 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting ends at dusk (18:00) Roma time


Please note that the time in Roma is Central European Time (CET), which
is six hours later than Eastern Standard Time in the United States, and
one hour later than Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul





Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29079 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: 2nd UPDATE - Comitia Centuriata Convened
Salvete Quirites,

A second change to the Contio agenda. Tribune Galerius Paulinus has
presented a second constitutional amendment that would eliminate the
possibility of ex post facto laws. I've included it below.

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Consul Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit

In accordance with our laws, augur Gaius Modius Athanasius has taken
an auspicium at my request, for the purpose of convening the Comitia.
The augury being favorable, I call the Comitia Centuriata for the
purpose of voting on amendments to our Constitution. Since this
meeting of the Comitia Centuriata is only considering legislation,
the voting will not be sequential as it would be for election of a
magistrate. Instead, all centuries shall vote together.

LEX EQVITIA DE CONSTITUTIONE CORRIGENDA

The first item is simply the current Constitution, with its spelling,
grammar, and orthography corrected to remove accumulated errors. It
contains all amendments passed to date. Due to its length, the text
is posted at http://village.flashnet.it/~ua01823/Codex/Comparison-table.html
(courtesy of D. Constantinus Fuscus, who kindly made the comparison
page) rather than being given here. On that page the current text of
the Constitution is in the column on the left, and the text as corrected
on the right. No changes in the meaning of the document have been
included. Changes to the text of the constitution require the approval
of the Comitia Centuriata and the ratification of the Senate even in
these cases of simple grammatical correction. The Cista will include
the complete text of the Constitution as corrected, under the title
Lex Equitia de Constitutionis Corregendis.

The second item presented will provide Constitutional agreement for
the complimentary family law being presented in the Comitia Populi
Tributa.

LEX EQVITIA DE GENTIBUS

I. Article II.D of the constitution is hereby amended to read:

"D. Gentes, Domus, and Familiae. Familiae (households) being the
backbone of Roman society, the prerogatives and responsibilities of the
familia are of primary importance to Nova Roma. Except where
specifically dealt with in this constitution and the law, each familia
shall have the right to determine its own course of action and parents
shall have the undisputed right and responsibility to see to the
education and raising of their children.
1. Each gens (clan) shall be registered with the censors, who
will maintain records of gens membership and other relevant information.
2. No two gentes may have the same nomen. The censors shall be
responsible for ensuring this rule is observed.
3. Each gens shall consist of a minimum of one domus (lineage).
4. No two domus within a gens may have the same cognomen
(surname). The censors shall be responsible for ensuring this rule is
observed.
5. Each familia shall have a paterfamilias and / or
materfamilias who shall act as the leader(s) of the family and speak for
it when necessary. The holder(s) of this position must be registered as
such with the censors. The paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may, at
his, her, or their discretion, expel members of his, her, or their
familia, accept new members into it by adoption, or allow members to
form new familiae belonging to the same order.
a. The paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may, at his,
her, or their discretion, exercise the rights ennumerated in paragraph
II.B of this Constitution on behalf of impuberes in his, her, or their
familia, with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph II.B.3.) and
the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph II.B.8.)."

[End text of Lex Equitia de Gentibus]

LEX EQVITIA GALERIA DE LEGIBVS EX POST FACTIS

Article I section A of the Constitution of Nova Roma is amended by
adding a section A.3 a and b which shall read

3. a. No one shall suffer a penalty for an action
which was not subject to a penalty when the action was
performed. If an action was subject to a penalty when
the action was performed but is no longer subject to
any penalty, no penalty shall be applied for that
action.
b. No one shall suffer a greater penalty for an
action than the penalty which was applicable when the
action was taken. If an action was subject to a
penalty when the action was performed but is now
subject to a lesser penalty, the lesser penalty shall
be applicable for that action.

[End text of LEX EQVITIA GALERIA DE LEGIBVS EX POST FACTIS]


Schedule for the Contio and vote:

22 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio begins at dawn Roma time
23 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
24 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
25 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
26 Septembris (dies comitialis) Contio continues
27 Septembris (dies comitialis) At dawn (06:00) Roma time contio ends
and voting begins
28 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
29 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
30 Septembris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
1 Octobris (dies nefastus) Voting suspended at 00:01 Roma time
2 Octobris (dies fastus) Voting suspended
3 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting resumes at 00:01 Roma time
4 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting continues
5 Octobris (dies comitialis) Voting ends at dusk (18:00) Roma time


Please note that the time in Roma is Central European Time (CET), which
is six hours later than Eastern Standard Time in the United States, and
one hour later than Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).


Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 29080 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2004-09-25
Subject: Re: Women in the Religio Romana
Salve Cato

I think as we are all still researching the sources it really
wouldn't serve any purpose to sully a perfectly fine historical
thread with a side-line political thread :)

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:
> G. Equitius Cato Gn. Iulio Caeso S.P.D.
>
> Salve, Caesar.
>
> I was not "straying" anywhere, Iulius Caesar --- I was walking
> firmly and with utter purpose into "Nova Roman politics", because
> that is the *point* of this discussion.
>
> So, do you feel that the CP should continue to utilize the
> unhistoric powers it has been granted, or that the CP should
> voluntarily relinquish them with the aim, and in the interest, of
> creating a more strictly reconstructionist College?
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>