In a message dated 10/6/04 8:30:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
whiterose13.geo@... writes:

> am the Sacerdos Necessitas. I was accepted as such not long ago.
> To date, guess how much guidance I have received from the
> Collegium? Zip, Zero, NONE. By their lack of contact, they have
> basically implied to me "congratulations on your position, don't
> piss off the gods, okay?" Nice. It really instills a deep sense of
> duty and obligation. To say that I'm a bit disgruntled is an
> understatement. Allow me to elaborate and rant for a bit.
>
>

Salvete

I'm rather confused by the rant. One thing that it was made clear to all
participants, that they had to do research about the god they were serving.
Also we do have template 's of rituals and we do have some learned persons in the
CP. Anybody who asks questions usually gets an answer.

Now as Marcus Cassius once pointed out, you have to be a self starter to be a
member of the religio. There is a lot to be done, and you are one of the
ones who have decided to do it. If you want everything spelled out, sorry, it
isn't.

Out of the seven sacerdotes we have, only one has submitted a plan of
rituals, results of research and suggestions to the CP. One. Now I understand that
some people can not read original sources, but you can use secondary sources,
prepare a plan and submit it from that. It is a starting point. One
sacerdos told me this was too much like home work. I really have no answer to that.
Except, yes it is.

If you do research it is work. We can only hope that its a labor of love.
That your reward is the futhering of Religious study of a long defunct
religion. If you do Archeology, it is hot grueling work for little pay. Forget
"Raiders" and "Tomb Raider". That form of archeology is from a long time past,
when museums paid king's ransom for artifacts. No, it is hot sun,
sweat running done your nose as you remove layer of layer earth measured in
centimeters.
So it is in the Religio. One reads "Dinner Stories" in the hope one will
find a snippet that is used about the Gods, honoring them, or dissing them.
Either way it is helpful.

As for your altar. If you come to us, to work, we assume you are truthful.
Why else would you come to us? Most here feel they have a calling. Why that
calling originates from is open to speculation, but there is something.
In conclusion, all I can do is say, you get out of it what you put in. And
if you expect not to put in a lot, you are not going to get a lot back.
But then isn't this true with life?

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---Salve Agrippina Modia et Salvete Omnes:


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Agrippina Modia Aurelia"
<whiterose13.geo@y...> wrote:

>
> Salvete,
>
> I am the Sacerdos Necessitas. I was accepted as such not long

ago.

> To date, guess how much guidance I have received from the
> Collegium? Zip, Zero, NONE. By their lack of contact, they have
> basically implied to me "congratulations on your position, don't
> piss off the gods, okay?" Nice. It really instills a deep sense

of

> duty and obligation. To say that I'm a bit disgruntled is an
> understatement. Allow me to elaborate and rant for a bit.

Pompeia: Rant away...I'm listening :)

>
> First, the application process. It is a joke. I *never* expected
> to be accepted on my first try. I did, however, expect to be
> contacted by the Collegium via email or IM or something with some
> questions, an interview if you will. Nope. I filled out an

online

> application and bingo, I'm a sacerdos.

That alone makes me

> seriously question NR's commitment to the Religio.

Po: Rather disconcerting, in light of others persons' applications
having been subject to far more scrutiny, yet that is not a
statement that you should be any means have been rejected,no way..
but rather an agreement with you that the lack of investigation
prior to approval is peculiar and 'suggests' inconsistency.

I honestly don't think it is a lack of serious commitment on 'all'
CP members...some members I find are quite committed...it is their
lack of ability to 'sing as a chorus' so to speak. I applaud the
Peace Initiatives of your own Paterfamilias for one; I believe he
sees the full scope of certain dilemna and is working to achieve
some common ground in various areas in NR.


Opining from the outside looking in, there seems to be quite a
polarization in opinions, convictions, willingness to compromise,
and a more pitting difference, seemingly, in the general role of the
CP relative to comitiae, depending on how a given priest interprets
the historical examples. There are those who see the CP as
guardians and facilitators of the Pax Daeorum, there are those who
think such, but seem to envision a CP framework who sees less call
for accountability as the Republic's religious authority, the RR
being the State Religio and a fundamental element of NR...all these
things make for a divided CP, with inevitably more focus on internal
affairs and less on responding to queries from Sacerdotes about
their religious concerns.
Oh, I am *sure* there are those who will disagree with me, but this
is an opinion, and what I see from the dynamics this year in
particular.


(snip)
Hell, my cat could become a flamen if I

> worded it right. Oh wait, my cat could probably hold 5

citizenships

> too, the applications are both mockeries. (Sorry Caeso but that
> little admission a few days ago about that guy with 5 citizenships
> really bothered me since I do approvals. It makes the Censors and
> their scriba look really bad and there seems to be no good way to
> fix it which makes it worse).

Po: Modia, you are not responsible for the dishonesty of others.
You do the best you can, and that is all you can do. It happens,
even with the most scrupulous of Censorial staff. Dishonesty is
easy work on the computer still, but when it is done once too much
ya get caught. With this novus cive course, and hopefully this Lex
will get comitial blessing, these incidents will decrease...hey,
would you want to take the same course 5 times? You'd atleast think
about it, right? Don't be discouraged with this, and don't beat
yourself up, please.

>
> It would be nice if the CP could outline what is
> expected of sacerdos in this position. Perhaps a basic ritual
> outline or something that I can arrange for use with my deity.
> Nope. Nothing. We have our own little mailing list though.

Po: Why don't you write some meditations or reflections, prayers
rituals, based on your knowledge, and go from there; then when you
find some research material you can expand you collection of
things. I know you want to be historical...but just go with what
you know for sure, and maybe incorporate basic elements of say, the
Roman virtues? Sometimes personalized stuff is the nicest to read,
especially when you know the person writing it. Suggestions only.

>

(snip)

> That alone makes me question whether NR and the
> CP really respect the gods. They appoint people to the

priesthoods

> but what happens when they disappear? Do we expect the gods to

just

> say "oh well, there went another one, maybe NR will find a better
> candidate next time"?! I think some serious offerings should be
> made to make up for our collective failure to keep people in those
> positions.

Pompeia: Well, I think the Consuls are on the right track in
demanding some accountability and serious commitment from new
citizens by making an orientation mandatory, and indeed, this
mindset would be desirable within the CP, although I dare say that
the standards should be equitably applied to each applicant, and I
will further suggest again, that if there is no historical Religious
restraint regarding gender for a certain position, then this should
not be a deciding factor.

>
> Cato has asked people for their personal experiences with the
> Religio. Well, Cato, here are some of my recent experiences as
> Sacerdos Necessitas:
>
> Even before I was accepted into the role, I felt that the gods

were

> rather displeased with NR. This varied in degree and it became
> apparent that when this list is embroiled in a fierce battle the
> gods are most displeased. When the list is very heated in some

name-

> calling flame war I can't step within 5 feet of my lararium

without

> this overwhelming sense of foreboding. As if the gods were
> saying, "don't even ask us to look favorably on that mess." On
> those days I don't even bother with my lararium rites, to do so
> would only further the god's displeasure and possibly bring down
> their wrath on me (the latter being my feeling of course).

Po: Do you think they would blame you for their displeasure of
others? Not asking as an authority, just asking....



(snip)

>
> The Pontifex Maximus
> had to start another mailing list to discuss the Religio, how sad

is

> that? Anyone who's on the actual Religio list for any period of
> time learns not to ask questions. Why? Case in point: someone
> asked about the cult of Isis and some jerk basically told her to

go

> find an Egyptian organization, completely overlooking the fact

that

> NR recognizes foreign priesthoods.

Po: I saw that post. Things, as I see, are markedly different than
they were a few years ago. If the subject of an atypical cult came
up, or even Wicca, it was digressed on a bit, and the subject
dropped...even if Wicca is off-topic on the Religo list there wasn't
the defensiveness and antagonism displayed with increasing
frequency. I remember a few examples of Pontifex Graecus telling
people that the purpose of the RR list was not to beat up other
faiths, including Christians, and reminding subscribers that NR had
Christian citizens, who are not against Religious freedom to
practise the Religio or other faiths peaceably. That ended it. Yeah,
the whole tone was different..it was more congenial, and nobody felt
threatened or 'undermined' or what have you. Not the feeling of
foreboding you describe.

Sometimes certain people will generate blame on others for things
they have neglected in their own right, and I think, for political
and other various nonreligious reasons, including personal agendae,
this tool has been used by a few, with the sad byproduct of driving
a Religious rift through our community....all over a 'threat' or
an 'undermining' which never existed en masse in the first place. At
what cost. Makes me sad. I think the total number of people who
have made direct statements implying the the Religio is bogus or
that the Gods do not exist since 1998 could be counted on one hand,
and I can only see a record of three persons. Of course I am not
counting as 'blasphemy' any innocent queries regarding elements of
the Religio and/or those who make an innocent statement that they
are not practitioners. I gather, from certain reactions to the
above, that a few regard such as Blasphemy.
(snip)

Thankfully one of the pontiffs and Maior stepped in to

> help but that first reply was really was nifty. It would certainly
> given me pause when considering further involvement in NR. I'm

just

> glad she didn't use the word "Wiccan" lest that flamewar be

revised

> for the zillionth time.

Po: I saw that post too. Maior is pretty cool. She has a nice
outlook; her firmness of conviction is often mistaken as undirected
antagonism by some, but I believe she is dedicated to a happy,
peaceful and just community, and the Pax.

(snip)

>
> It would be nice to see the
> website clarified with an "officially approved" lararium rite and
> list the others as 'options.' Just a thought. I just picked what
> looked like the best one.

Po: Well, maybe someone from the CP will see your suggestion, and
also the Magister of the Website.

>
> The constant rehash of women in the Religio is tiresome. I'm sure
> the end result will be that we will force the gods to accept women
> flamen and pontiffs because we live in the age of political
> correctness. At that point I will have NO use for the Religio as

it

> will have proven itself to be nothing but a neo-pagan movement

with

> a *slight* emphasis on history and at that, only when it's
> convenient.

Po: I would certainly not want to see mandatory historical elements
of particular religious positions compromised in the name of
political correctness; in some cases, the historical literature is
clear, and in others it is not...the position of women was one of
subordination everywhere in antiquita, though, so is it a religious
mandate we can attribute to the mos maiorum, or was it just a
universally-based social norm? If we are not careful though Modia,
we could be denying women rights based on antiquated discrimination
and not reasons we can assume as mandated by Roman religious
protocols. In so doing we eliminate alot of qualified persons,
without proven necessity.

>
> (snip)
> In any event I will make offerings of apology on behalf of all

those

> who have betrayed their oaths as flamen, sacredos, and pontiffs in
> the past. Someone should. I believe it to be necessary and as

the

> Sacerdos of the Goddess of Necessity and Fate it would seem to be

my

> duty. It would just be nice to have some guidance as to how to go
> about that in a historical context. Otherwise it will be done

using

> my own words and sentiments, which I'm sure won't be anything

close

> to historical.

Po: See above where I suggest you start with writing your own
stuff, and go from there, based on what you know to date.

>
> Why did I bring this here instead the list designated for those in
> the priesthood or write to the Collegium? I believe *everyone*
> should hear this be they a practitioner or not. The Religio
> performs it's actions for the benefit of *everyone* in NR, not

just

> those who practice the rites so hopefully if enough of NR raises a
> big enough stink *maybe* something will get done. Aside from

that,

> I didn't really think I'd get much of a response from the CP (as a
> united front) or at worst, some whizz and jazz about projects that
> will never manifest that are supposed to 'fix' these issues.

After

> taking several weeks off to deal with some medical issues I came
> back to find the same old mess. One thing has become apparent to

me

> though. NR is becoming much like the American political system:

all

> talk, no action unless bombing someone is involved. Thank the

gods

> that NR lacks WMDs.

Po: I hope you are feeling better physically. And I know how
frustrating things can be sometimes. And we have to work toward
becoming a community again. At one point I thought NR was an
awesome example of Religious tolerance...not Religious 'ecumenism'
but mutual appreciation and respect, and the Religo's place was
never questioned. We seemed to have a common bond within the virtues
a couple of years back, despite many differences, and religion is
only one of them, and a less prevalent one at that. It was not
Plato's Eutopia, but, it wasn't a wrestling ring, either:)

At any rate, I want to assure you by this final thought; that had
you not posted it might have been a long time before I was prompted
to look up some information on Necessita. I had *heard* of her, but
I didn't think she was represented in NR by anyone. I thought you
were 'Justice":) . So you see, you are more effective a religious
representative than you think you are...all without even trying.

Valete
Po

>
> Valete,
>
> Agrippina Modia Aurelia
> Sacerdos Necessitas

"I honestly don't think it is a lack of serious commitment on 'all' CP members...some members I find are quite committed...it is their lack of ability to 'sing as a chorus' so to speak"

--In ancient Rome was everyone always singing as a chorus? Was the CP all was in synch or were there divisions? Regardless of whether they were all sharing common ground in religious conviction or not they were still human. To me that simply means they were very capable of being divided. This was certainly so in the Senate. I only ask because I am no scholar on the Religio. With that said with what little I do know I am taking into consideration the humanity of Romans and as such their capability of making mistakes and succumbing to greed, desire, etc. So was the CP of Roma Antiqua always united? Or were there ever divisions? If this is not known would it be possible that at times it might have been and that any faults of the CP of Nova Roma is no exception?



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---Salvete Cassius Brutus:

The answer to all of your questions is 'no'; Rome as a republic
deteriorated and fell, slowly, such development proportional to the
waning of comradry, cooperation, and mutual respect and a general
forgetfulness of why it was founded and existed in the first place.

And 'no', I don't think you citations are elements of a rule of
thumb we should consider following in the building of a strong
micronation patterned after the ideals of Republican Rome. You are
citing some interesting points, but they were all proven ingredients
in a recipe which created Rome's demise.

Pompeia




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Quintus Brutus <quintus_cassius@y...>
wrote:

>
> "I honestly don't think it is a lack of serious commitment

on 'all' CP members...some members I find are quite committed...it
is their lack of ability to 'sing as a chorus' so to speak"

>
> --In ancient Rome was everyone always singing as a chorus? Was

the CP all was in synch or were there divisions? Regardless of
whether they were all sharing common ground in religious conviction
or not they were still human. To me that simply means they were
very capable of being divided. This was certainly so in the
Senate. I only ask because I am no scholar on the Religio. With
that said with what little I do know I am taking into consideration
the humanity of Romans and as such their capability of making
mistakes and succumbing to greed, desire, etc. So was the CP of
Roma Antiqua always united? Or were there ever divisions? If this
is not known would it be possible that at times it might have been
and that any faults of the CP of Nova Roma is no exception?

>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Q. Fabius Maximus,

I would like to thank you, and the others, for replying. I will
respond to them as time permits.

> I'm rather confused by the rant. One thing that it was made clear

to all

> participants, that they had to do research about the god they

were serving.

That was the one part I thought I was clear on, the website does
state that clearly.

> Also we do have template 's of rituals and we do have some learned

persons in the

> CP.

I was unaware of any ritual templates. I have evidently missed them
on the website unless they are stored elsewhere. I recently search
for the page that lists all of the rituals that have been performed
by priests in NR but couldn't find it either.

> Anybody who asks questions usually gets an answer.

Not to be nit-picky but had to laugh at that one - "usually"?? I
understand the meaning there but it doesn't instill much confidence.

> Now as Marcus Cassius once pointed out, you have to be a self

starter to be a

> member of the religio. There is a lot to be done, and you are one

of the

> ones who have decided to do it. If you want everything spelled

out, sorry, it

> isn't.

Yes, he does state that in the monthly statement sent to the
priesthood list. I do understand that I am responsible for my
position. However, a simple, clear email that clearly states what
the CP expects: research submitted as it is conducted, rituals to
be performed (using the afore mentioned outlines) as necessary, etc
would at the very least be a nice courtesy and professional. I
never received such a thing. I've never received anything from the
CP.

> Out of the seven sacerdotes we have, only one has submitted a plan

of

> rituals, results of research and suggestions to the CP. One.

Now I understand that

> some people can not read original sources, but you can use

secondary sources,

> prepare a plan and submit it from that. It is a starting point.

One

> sacerdos told me this was too much like home work. I really have

no answer to that.

> Except, yes it is.

It is homework to an extent. That is NOT a bad thing in my mind. I
have done research, not as much as I would like I confess. I have
not had the chance to get to a collegiate library so my research has
been limited. I cannot read the original sources but at no time
have I seen this as an obsticle as there are many translations
available. Perhaps the reason that only one of seven have done
anything is that there isn't a clear list of what the CP expects. I
have placed the results of my limited research on my personal
website and plan to create one devoted strictly to Necessitas.
However the CP has never communicated with me stating anything of
any expectations...such as we'd like to see and/or get a copy of
your research for future use; we would like to eventually see a plan
for how/when you do ritual, etc. I honestly do not think that is
too much to ask.

> If you do research it is work. We can only hope that its a labor

of love.

> That your reward is the futhering of Religious study of a long

defunct

> religion.

That was not really a concern of mine. Of course there will be
research involved. My overall complaint is that the CP seems to be
a silent body. A simple email from the CP (as a whole unit not just
one pontiff speaking on his own behalf) acknowledging my acceptance
and reiterating their expectations would have been nice. It would
show that at least the CP is interested in the activities of its
flamen and sacerdos. Considering one of them was a sacerdos for
some period of time before HE EVEN KNEW IT, I think the CP needs to
be slightly more proactive.

> If you do Archeology, it is hot grueling work for little pay.

Yes I know that very well. I assisted at a dig by Yale Univesity in
Colorado many years ago. My and my classmates' job was to move the
large hill surrounding the dinosaur being excavated. Hot, sweaty
and dirty doesn't even come close to describing the experience.

> As for your altar. If you come to us, to work, we assume you are

truthful.

> Why else would you come to us?

As a scriba in the censors office I would like to think that all
applicants are truthful too, especially given the amount of time
that goes into the approval process. Recent postings have proven us
wrong publically. Privately, there are more than a few 'fake apps'
that come through. Assuming things is dangerous.

> Most here feel they have a calling.

As did I.

> Why that
> calling originates from is open to speculation, but there is

something.

> In conclusion, all I can do is say, you get out of it what you put

in. And

> if you expect not to put in a lot, you are not going to get a lot

back.

> But then isn't this true with life?

I have no problem with putting work into my position. The problem
is the CP's lack of a general guidance. I remember the Flamen
Florialis was called on the carpet for not doing his duty only to
find out he did, he just didn't know he was supposed to post the
ritual on the ML. Had he received some form of email or other form
of communication outlining that this was an expection he probably
would have done so.

Am I making myself more clear this time? **I believe that the CP
needs to come up with some form of clear, general guidelines of
expectations.** Posting them only on the website isn't good
enough. An email, letter, something should be received upon
acceptance as a sacerdos or flamen that reiterates what's on the
website. It should also include those little tidbits about the
ritual outlines and such.

Vale bene,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia

"The answer to all of your questions is 'no'; Rome as a republic deteriorated and fell, slowly, such development proportional to the waning of comradry, cooperation, and mutual respect and a general forgetfulness of why it was founded and existed in the first place.

And 'no', I don't think you citations are elements of a rule of
thumb we should consider following in the building of a strong
micronation patterned after the ideals of Republican Rome. You are citing some interesting points, but they were all proven ingredients in a recipe which created Rome's demise."

--Well thanx for the response. Well my reply is with the first paragraph, well I knew Rome deteriorated with time just as it's historical sites have. But was wondering if within a certain segment of society there was an exception. Perhaps, faith could deter individuals away from the politics. But I guess that is not so. They also did not have a great modelled society to work with. Glory and victory amounted to political power. Case and point would be Scipio Africanus. He held trememndous sway with the people and as a result got his way when his detractors wished otherwise. His victories against the carthaginians in Europe built this influence and it is how he got commission to wage the war further in Africa, albeit with hurdles in the way. His detractors desire for personal glory created this mess. So the society in itself was very prone to appealing towards the negative virtues that I cited. So greed, lust, and desire in my personal opinion were rampant in Roman society
especially amongst those with ambitions.

Well ideals are always great to strive for, they are also at the top of a very steep mountain. All of us are human and have our own visions, opinions, and knowledge. Case and point would be the Religio issue. You have two groups with there own vision on the course it should take and that in itself is a huge hurdle to climb over. I'm sure you know this and also understand it. But while the divisions led to Rome's demise the same could be said of society today. Capitalism leads to greed, etc and other forms of gov't lead to those with ambitions for power. You can't win. There are many other modern points that could be used to by I'll leave it at that as I feel much of modern issues have no place here as they are irrelevent to rome.

Vale, QB


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Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Was the Collegium Pontificum of antiquity trying to reconstruction an
ancient religion for thier "modern" times? NO. That religion was already there,
and the pontifices were simply there to maintain the traditions already in
place. The task of the Collegium Pontificum of TODAY is, in many ways more
difficult. We have to rebuild without all the pieces of construction.

Regarding what Agrippina Modia stated...I can't say I disagree with anything
she has stated. She is a good friend, and I have shared her frustration. I
am the newest Pontifex within the Collegium, and I can state that very
little gets done.

Both Hadrianus and I have a list of things we would like to get
accomplished, but it seems as if we are the only ones willing to proceed. Should he and
I proceed without the tacit approval of the rest of the Collegium? Lots of
things NEED to be done, but who is capable of leading the Collegium to make
sure they get done.

I know that Agrippina Modia is frustrated. Drusus and I had to convene the
Collegium just to make sure that Agrippina Modia, Lucia Modia, and Aurelianus
could get their applications voted on. Then the Pontifex Maximus, Marcus
Cassius, didn't even vote on the applications. He also didn't contact the new
priests, as he has always done in the past, to inform them of their duties,
rights, and responsibilities. Why was the Collegium not convened for these
folks? Is it because there were two Modia to be voted on? Were Agrippina and
Lucia treated differently because they were in my Gens? Cassius told Drusus
and I to contact the new priests and "fill them in" on what needed to be
done. We were also told to contact the new Lictors. I told Cassius that I would
not instruct the new Lictors as that is his responsibility, and I contacted
the new priests as best as I could.

These political battles really should stop. We should be working towards
building up the Religio and Nova Roma, not breaking it down with petty politics.

If anyone wants a VERY frustrating "job" in Nova Roma, please apply to be a
pontifex. The application might take a year to be voted on, but hey...

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Pontifex

In a message dated 10/6/2004 4:26:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
quintus_cassius@... writes:

--In ancient Rome was everyone always singing as a chorus? Was the CP all
was in synch or were there divisions? Regardless of whether they were all
sharing common ground in religious conviction or not they were still human. To
me that simply means they were very capable of being divided. This was
certainly so in the Senate. I only ask because I am no scholar on the Religio.
With that said with what little I do know I am taking into consideration the
humanity of Romans and as such their capability of making mistakes and
succumbing to greed, desire, etc. So was the CP of Roma Antiqua always united? Or
were there ever divisions? If this is not known would it be possible that
at times it might have been and that any faults of the CP of Nova Roma is no
exception?






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Cassius Petreius <petreius@g...> wrote:

> I have not been too outspoken on the ML, but perhaps some have noticed
> I'd vanished altogether over the past two weeks. That is because my
> twin sons, Porter Romulus Orvetti and Miles Remus Orvetti, were born
> on Monday, September 27.

CONGRATULATIONS on the newest members of Gens Cassia! Thank you for sharing this
most happy news with us -- this list needs all the happy news it can get. May they be
blessed in every way, and may they dwell together in harmony, and NOT repeat the deeds
of the ancient R&R...

Patricia Cassia

Athanasius writes:
There has been much talk about the research by Scaurus. While Scaurus is a
man a deeply respect I *wonder* WHY all the responsibility has been placed on
him. Why can't Marcus Cassius, our Pontifex Maximus, do his own research?

Cassius respondit:
It was Scarus that proposed and volunteered to do this research as a
"compromise." This was the only alternative to Patricia Cassia being denied
outright by the Boni because of her gender. Both sides agreed to Scarus' proposal,
and no one had any reason to assume that Scarus would not do what he said he'd
do.

Could I "do my own research?" Surely, although I don't pretend to be the
accredited classical scholar that Scarus is. He holds degrees in this subject,
and I believe he is on premises where he has a university library available
daily. There has been little cause for me to jump in and do what Scarus said
he'd do... until recently when it has begun to appear that Scarus may no
longer be doing the research at all.

Athanasius:
Why can't he do what is necessary to present his opinion to the Collegium
with academic strength? If Marcus Cassius is the chairman of the Collegium I
would have assumed he would have wanted to conduct his own -- independant
research -- to make sure that all sides of the debate were being researched.

Cassius:
Again, it was Scarus who proposed research ought to be done, and Scarus that
volunteered to do it. Frankly, I have had no intention whatever to present
my ideas in this capacity on "academic strength." My reasons for believing we
should continue to include women as Pontifices and Flamens is born for the
most part on modern organizational practicality rather than on ancient
scholarship. We all know that women were not allowed into these roles in Roma
Antiqua. I confess I have always been interested in exactly what Scarus intended to
research when he volunteered, that is not already well known.

In my last two decades of reading about the Religio as a private enthusiast
(as opposed to an accredited scholar) I have never seen any reason why women
were not allowed as Senators, Consuls or other magistrates, Voting Citizens,
Lictors, Flamens, Pontifices, etc. - except of course for the prevalent
social mores of the times. It is entirely possible there is not much to be
researched at all... which may be part of Scarus not achieving anything to report.

Athanasius writes:
Marcus Cassius, as Pontifex Maximus, has the power to convene the Collegium
Pontificum and force a vote on your application for Pontifex. He did not
bring your application to an official vote, but backed down when there was
opposition.

Cassius respondit:
So I "backed down" rather than accept the compromise proposed by Scarus?
That's very interesting. This is the first I've heard of it.

Athanasius:
I would be happy, if I can get the help of another pontifex, to
convene the Collegium Pontificum to bring your application to an official
vote.
If this is your wish let me know.

Cassius:
I bet you would - just as you'd be happy to convene the College of Augurs
for a "one shot, never to be questioned again" augury on the subject of women
taking positions of leadership in the Religio Romana. You'll pardon if I at
least don't care to accept your one-sided terms.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>So Patricia Cassia, I don't want you to cook, unless you want to do it. I even
>humbly suggest that you goes on in your Roman religious way: your being female
>will afford you plenty success impossible for males. But again: do you want to
>be "Roman" somehow, or do you want just dressing and cooking? Just playing
>without involvement?

The most profound form of involvement I can imagine is taking on the responsibility of
service to the gods of ancient Rome, a service which I already perform privately and in
which I have found much knowledge, inspiration, and meaning. I believe that the study
and practice of Roman religion has made me a better person.

I seek now to offer that service to Nova Roma, in thanks for the learning I have done here,
and in the belief that I have something to offer to both NR and the gods. Believe me, I am
not playing at this.

Patricia Cassia

Athanasius writes:
When we can have a discussion without the sarcasm please let me know, and
then I will engage in dialogue. Some of things you said towards the end of
your e-mail have merit, and if isolated from these comments I quote below
warrent a response. However, if you wish to engage in dialogue with me you
will do so without the sarcasm. I simply do not have time for this sort of
rhetorical device.

I am serious about dialogue and discussion, and do not want to have to sort
through e-mails to determine what is serious and what is sarcasm.

Cassius respondit:
I'll be pleased to drop the sarcasm when you drop your own rather nasty
rhetorical tactics, including asking questions you know the answers to, personal
attacks about myself and my position as Pontifex Maximus, revising history to
present me in the worst possible light, etc.

I find you a particularly unpleasant person to deal with, Athanasius. I
assure you that sarcasm is a much more pleasant response than the way you speak
to me. To be honest, I don't believe you and I have a "dialogue" to each other
at all; I merely have to keep posting to provide an alternative to you and
your "strict reconstructionist" conservative friends, and to defend myself
from your ongoing personal slander.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I'm sure
> the end result will be that we will force the gods to accept women
> flamen and pontiffs because we live in the age of political
> correctness. At that point I will have NO use for the Religio as it
> will have proven itself to be nothing but a neo-pagan movement with
> a *slight* emphasis on history and at that, only when it's
> convenient.

Yet there are those who claim that even the Sacerdos position, which you and I both hold,
is historically inaccurate.

I very much agree that the Religio and its priesthoods stand in need of improvement. May I
invite you to lead the way? NR needs energy and problem-solving, not yet another round
of complaints.

Patricia Cassia

Brutus writes:
Okay since everyone has had there turn at asking questions. I will have mine.
Since this has been argued from all angles how about this:

Women as pertains to the Religio do have access. However, this boils down to
a
matter of respect not modernity. Just as another cive pointed out when
entering
the places of worship of other religions he/she (forgive me I forget who
stated
it) respects that religions customs by say removing of hat or shoes or
whatever.
The same pertains to the Religio. What makes the Religio any different? Women
did have access to the Religio and positions within. There is no inequality
if
they had access. So what is the problem. If you try and change the Religio to
suit your own purposes because of what you want or for say more personal
reasons
(i.e. maybe revenge if someone was rejected) then you are not only
disrespecting
the Religio but those who follow it and the gods of the Religio. So what is
the
problem when women had access?


Salve,

Brutus, there is a difference between "access" and "equal access." In the
Southern US in the 1950's, black people had "access" to public transportation,
but had to sit in the less desirable seats in the rear, so the "better" seats
could be enjoyed by whites only. That was unequal and unfair.

Under the new system put in place by the Boni majority in the Collegium
Pontificum, women do *not* have equal access to leadership in the Religio. They
have access to the lower levels, but not the top two administrative levels of
Priesthood. That means that they cannot participate equally in decisions,
policy making, leadership of the major cults, deciding what is included in modern
revival, what directions the Religio should take, etc. That is also unequal
and unfair.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Cassio Juliano salutem dicit

The irony of your position is that you claim to by a sycretist, yet you
choose to continue to alienate me and push me away. I never entered Nova Roma to
be your enemy. I am a sycretist, a proud polythiest. A Druid Revivalist, a
Gnostic Christian Bishop, and a Pontifex/Augur/Flamen in Nova Roma. All
compatible within my own sycretist mind.

Yet I get bundled within the "strict reconstructionist" crowd. Everytime
Drusus went off on Wicca I educated him on the truth. My wife is a Wiccan, and
I was a Wiccan High Priest for several years, and still perform Wiccan style
ritual at the Full and New moons.

Truthfully...Marcus Cassius you don't know me!

I find you a difficult person to deal with too, but I have never told you I
would not dialogue for positive change and for improvement of Nova Roma. I
guess we will just sit back and watch the Collegium implode!

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Pontifex, Flamen Pomonalis, Augur

In a message dated 10/6/2004 9:18:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cassius622@... writes:

Cassius respondit:
I'll be pleased to drop the sarcasm when you drop your own rather nasty
rhetorical tactics, including asking questions you know the answers to,
personal
attacks about myself and my position as Pontifex Maximus, revising history
to
present me in the worst possible light, etc.

I find you a particularly unpleasant person to deal with, Athanasius. I
assure you that sarcasm is a much more pleasant response than the way you
speak
to me. To be honest, I don't believe you and I have a "dialogue" to each
other
at all; I merely have to keep posting to provide an alternative to you and
your "strict reconstructionist" conservative friends, and to defend myself
from your ongoing personal slander.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Athanasius writes:
What is the "tremendous authority" of being a Flamen in Nova Roma? I
consider it an honor to be the Flamen Pomonalis, and make regular public
offerings/rituals to her, but I wonder when I will receive the tremendous authority
invested in the Flaminate.

Am I missing something? As a Flamen non-Pontifex I could voice an opinion
within the Collegium, but it didn't hold any weight. Maybe a "modest voice" but
NOT "tremendous authority!"

Again, am I missing something?


Cassius respondit:
I think perhaps the situation is more that you're "deliberately ignoring"
something. Flamens are the second-highest level of administration in the
Religio Romana, both contributing to the decision making process and leading the
major cults of the Religio.

NOBODY in Nova Roma really holds "tremendous authority." That's not really
the issue. The issue is whether or not women get to participate equally in
Religio Romana leadership. This is also a wider issue - whether or not Nova Roma
as a whole wishes to declare gender inequality as being worthy of revival as
part of "the best of ancient Rome" by enshrining it as official policy in
our own time.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius Marco Cassio Juliano salutem dicit

I can still convene the Collegium Augurium to address the issue of woman
pontifices and flamen. If you honestly believe that I would present my own will
instead of the omens of the Gods then you are mistaken. I know you view
augury as a purely political matter, but I do not.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 10/6/2004 9:10:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cassius622@... writes:

I bet you would - just as you'd be happy to convene the College of Augurs
for a "one shot, never to be questioned again" augury on the subject of
women
taking positions of leadership in the Religio Romana. You'll pardon if I at
least don't care to accept your one-sided terms.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

I would recommend allowing woman who are not virgins be allowed to be
vestals, and give the vestals more authority within the Collegium. In ancient Rome
vestals were taken care, in Nova Roma we cannot afford to take care of
vestals so why should they be chaste full time. I saw allow woman in committed
relationships be allowed to be vestals and on the Collegium [yeah, I know this
opinion is not popular and that I will probably be attacked for it].

Personally, if I had to choose between being a Flamen Pomonalis or a
Pontifex I would choose Flamen...vote or no vote within the Collegium. As a Flamen
I feel I make a difference, as a pontifex well...its political.

Valete:

Gaius Modius Athanasius


In a message dated 10/6/2004 9:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cassius622@... writes:

NOBODY in Nova Roma really holds "tremendous authority." That's not really
the issue. The issue is whether or not women get to participate equally in
Religio Romana leadership. This is also a wider issue - whether or not Nova
Roma
as a whole wishes to declare gender inequality as being worthy of revival
as
part of "the best of ancient Rome" by enshrining it as official policy in
our own time.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Excellent news!

A free local paper known as the 'Dayton City Paper' featured Pagan Pride Day
as their cover story and a photo of me in toga making a libation to Pomona
is on the front cover, and additional photos of the main ritual (which I
conducted) and the ritual to Pomona (which also included my wife Toby Kling and
Agrippina Modia who assisted me). The article itself was two full pages and
was very good. I was interviewed for a good portion of the article, and the to
one of the photos I was in reads, "Roman ritual honoring the Roman Goddess
Pomona."

A great event, and a great write-up of the event.

Hats off to Agrippina Modia while she staffed the Nova Roma info booth, and
also to her for assisting in the ritual!

I have been instrumental in helping with the organization of Dayton Ohio's
PPD, and I know that Hadrianus is a part of the PPD in his area. I would very
much like to see other Nova Roma priests involved in their local Pagan Pride
Days, or to help organize one if one does not already exist.

Public ritual is why I became a priest of Nova Roma...not so I could debate
everyday, but so I could actively promote the Pax Deorum.

I believe Pomona is pleased.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave Cassi;
what happened to Graecus? I always thought he was moderate, at
least I had that idea from the Religio list last year,
If You, Modius, Hadrianus and Graecus were for Patricia Cassia
wouldn't that carry?
Anyway I'm going to suggest with the ML in a fine uproar over the
CP, that Marinus broach to the Senate, a constitutional reform of the
CP to conform to historical Republican status..Modius being flamen,
pontifex and augur is a disgrace, never permitted in republican
rome,he really should lay down and only hold one office. This was the
upspoken agreement in republican days.

on another point these types who think women should enjoy their
sphere in 'real rome' I suggest along with that that they too enjoy
their sphere - as slaves! you notice these idiots never take that
road.
vale
Arminia Maior

"Brutus, there is a difference between "access" and "equal access." In the Southern US in the 1950's, black people had "access" to public transportation, but had to sit in the less desirable seats in the rear, so the "better" seats could be enjoyed by whites only. That was unequal and unfair.

Under the new system put in place by the Boni majority in the Collegium Pontificum, women do *not* have equal access to leadership in the Religio. They have access to the lower levels, but not the top two administrative levels of Priesthood. That means that they cannot participate equally in decisions,
policy making, leadership of the major cults, deciding what is included in modern revival, what directions the Religio should take, etc. That is also unequal and unfair."

--Well in any event your desired point is taken on the Old South but could've done better. Anyway, well no matter how you wish to look at "access" and contort varying levels of what "access" is shouldn't serving the gods be an honor? With that said why is the honor of serving them a problem? This shouldn't be about trying to get higher and higher up. That just comes across as a power-grab and makes it seem as people just seek positions so they can have a nice list going below their profile such as yourself, with Censor, Consul, Consul, ProConsul, ProConsul, etc...While public service is great and I'm not questioning you with what I said above but from those who argue fervently with the Moderati perspective frequently come across as simply not caring but just wanting power. Is this what this is about? Power? It should be an honor to serve the gods. However, if people took that seriously then there would really be this debate and arguing back and forth because they would be
proud to serve the gods and not preoccupied with furthering their careers in Nova Roma.

But I would ask of you an explanation perhaps of something you said prior to replying to my post. You said that your current beliefs regarding the Religio come from a

"modern organizational practicality rather than on ancient scholarship." Then later on in the same post you said "I have never seen any reason why women were not allowed as Senators, Consuls or other magistrates, Voting Citizens, Lictors, Flamens, Pontifices, etc."

Now the reason I bring these up is because while going through the Nova Roma website I recalled the Preamble of the Constitution stating

"Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy."

So we've established the Religio is a centerpiece in Nova Roma. Because Just as Nova Roma is the "worldy focus" for the Religio, the opposite is true with the Religio being the "worldly focus" of Nova Roma. Furthermore, in the Religio Romana section of Nova Roma it states,

"every attempt is made to rely on actual historical and archaeological evidence, and interpolations are made only when the primary sources are silent, and then we strive to be consistent with them."

So what I am wondering is if the Religio is based off of historical evidence then why the debate? Evidence suggests a reliance on historical fact. But you say your belief comes from modern thought. How can it be both ways? This is not an attack on you. So don't charge me with that. I simply want clarification. Because reading one then the other to me sends mixed signals of saying one thing then wanting another.

Vale, Quintus brutus

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

Since you mention it...

What about Scaurus? He holds three priesthoods.

What about Cincinnatus? He is a Pontifex, Flamen, and Augur. Are you going
to have the senate remove these priesthoods from a senator, and ex-censor?

Valete;

Athanasius the disgraced

In a message dated 10/6/2004 10:35:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rory12001@... writes:

Anyway I'm going to suggest with the ML in a fine uproar over the
CP, that Marinus broach to the Senate, a constitutional reform of the
CP to conform to historical Republican status..Modius being flamen,
pontifex and augur is a disgrace, never permitted in republican
rome,he really should lay down and only hold one office. This was the
upspoken agreement in republican days.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

While I'm sure this was meant to be a private mail, I do have to comment on
this.

> Anyway I'm going to suggest with the ML in a fine uproar
> over the CP, that Marinus broach to the Senate, a
> constitutional reform of the CP to conform to historical
> Republican status..Modius being flamen, pontifex and augur is
> a disgrace, never permitted in republican rome,he really
> should lay down and only hold one office. This was the
> upspoken agreement in republican days.

I'll find the exact book tomorrow morning, and give the exact quote and page
for accuracy, but to paraphrase, in Republican Rome, a person could hold
however many and whatever priesthoods as one wanted, so long as they did not
conflict with each other. As far as I am aware, his being an augur does not
conflict with his being a flamen, and his being a pontifex does not conflict
with his being an augur, which does not conflict with his being a flamen.
By custom it would likely not have happened, but it would not have been
illegal, and the only uproar there would have been about it would have
likely been a lot of praise for having achieved so much.

Vale,

Metellus

Thank you for your kind words Metellus. Its good to know that I am not
considered a disgrace to all the citizens of Nova Roma.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 10/6/2004 10:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
postumianus@... writes:

I'll find the exact book tomorrow morning, and give the exact quote and page
for accuracy, but to paraphrase, in Republican Rome, a person could hold
however many and whatever priesthoods as one wanted, so long as they did not
conflict with each other. As far as I am aware, his being an augur does not
conflict with his being a flamen, and his being a pontifex does not conflict
with his being an augur, which does not conflict with his being a flamen.
By custom it would likely not have happened, but it would not have been
illegal, and the only uproar there would have been about it would have
likely been a lot of praise for having achieved so much.

Vale,

Metellus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ave Gai Modi;
I don't blame you for this, I don't think you even know this is
historically wrong and I've written so.
You're not Boni now, but think how it looks to dole out all these
things to favored persons and deny positions to Consul Astur,
Patricia Cassia and other knowledgeable and devout people.

And then when a difficult issue comes up, and the augurs are of one
political bent, how can people have faith in this? Seen from this
point of view it is extremely difficult.

I confess my ignorance about Cinninatus and Scaurus too; he knows
better! The Senate can't strip them, but anyone of character should
lay down his extra priethoods volutarily so others might fill them.

This is the source of the whole mess with the CP in a deadlock;

>

As for you, Athanasi, you were never stripped of your priesthood for
perpetuity, remember that. And you voted for it too.....

On a happier note, I suggest everyone sign up for the Religio Course
at Academia Thules, it is being given by an ex-pontiff M. Horatius
Piscinus, you will not only learn how to do ritual in a relaxed
manner but have notes to classical sources, and access to a wonderful
teacher.
bene valete
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana

>
> Athanasius the disgraced
>
>

O.S.D. G. Equitius Cato

Salvete, omnes.

Gender discrimination. It has never been a part of Nova Roma, and it
should never be. We have had women pontifices. We will have more
in the future. The College of Pontiffs does not have the power to
override the Constitution; they cannot take it upon themselves to
alter the Constitution or mos maiorum of Nova Roma unilaterally.

If any member of the College of Pontiffs wishes to enshrine gender
(or any other kind of) discrimination within Nova Roma, he must
present it as a proposed Constitutional amendment.

I have said before, and the Pontifex Maximus touched briefly upon it
a few letters back: whether or not Scaurus' research into the
position of women in Roma Antiqua's religio shows absolutely and
without a doubt that women were under no circumstances allowed to
hold positions of power and influence in the Religio Publica, it
still does not affect us. Our Constitution, our own mos, protect us
against discrimination. I reject utterly the un-Roman idea that
improvement is bad. I reject utterly the idea that any group of
citizens can take it upon themselves to change the fundamental
structure of our res publica.



We are not ancient Romans.

The virtues of ancient Rome were not consigned to the dust-heap of
history along with the Republic, or the Empire. It is possible to
move towards the ancients' virtues without also dragging along the
baggage of out-dated social and political mores. We can dress like
them; we can speak like them; we can construct a political framework
based upon theirs; we can re-create a religio romana --- the Religio
Publica --- based on theirs; we can discuss philosophy and ethics
and culture like them; we can adopt their nomenclature with pride;
we can strive to emulate their great virtues.

We cannot be them.

We live in an age of marvelous technological advances --- the past
1700 years have seen a creative impulse in mankind unmatched in our
history. The Gods have given us these things; does anyone really
think otherwise? If They did not, where did they come from? And if
these material improvements came from the Gods, could not the Gods
also have given us the enlightenment of the past 1700 years to
improve socially as well as materially? At the very least the Gods
have inspired men and women throughout the ages to invent these
things. The Gods have used mankind, both men and women, to bring
these blessings about --- would you turn your back on Them and Their
gifts?

So.

I reject utterly the un-Roman idea that improvement is bad. So let
us start trying to improve ourselves, to erase that sense of
foreboding that hangs over the lararium of Modia Agrippina.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, explicitly call upon whichever magistrates
are necessary to ask that a formal renunciation of the religious
edicta of St. Theodosius I be proclaimed, in an attempt to re-
establish the pax deorum.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, explicitly call upon whichever magistrates
are necessary to ask that a formal day of public mourning be
proclaimed, and that a piaculum be performed by whatever body the
Senate or College of Pontiffs deems appropriate, in an attempt to re-
establish the pax deorum.

We must start somewhere.

Valete bene, omnes.

Cato

Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Collegiis Augurium et Pontificium salutem
dicit

Before the Senate and the Roman People of the Quirites, I, Quintus Caecilius
Metellus Postumianus, by virtue of my "right to seek and receive assistance
and advice from the State in matters of religious and social dispute
occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma,"
hereby make the following requests:

First, that the Collegium Augurium convene to investigate and make a
decision on the application of Patricia Cassia to the Pontificate. The will
of the Gods is more important than I could possibly phrase, and I think the
best way to handle this question (that is, the question of women in
traditionally and historically masculine positions), and similar questions
of diversion from the mos maiorum, is to determine the will of the Gods on
individual bases. Since we have, it seems, abandoned the practice of
inauguration of our pontifices, augures, flamines, and magistrates, I
believe that this is what should be done whenever an application for a
pontificate, augury, or flaminate is received.

Second, I respectfully request that the Collegium Pontificium pass a decree
requiring that the Collegium Augurium convene when an application for a
pontificate, augury, or flaminate is received, for the same reason as I
state above. As I say, since we have abandoned, it seems, the practice of
formal inauguration, I think that this may be the best course of action to
achieve the same result, though using different means.

About this second request, let me make a statement: I admit that I am far
ignorant of religious matters compared to the Collegium Pontificium, and
therefore I accept, without petition, whatever the Collegium would offer as
a response to my request, excepting the action of inaction. My preference
would be a return to the tradition of formal inauguration of our priests and
curule magistrates, but short of that, I do request at least something be
done which leans us that way.

This is my request, as a Citizen, as a Priest, and as a Civil Servant.

So made on these Nones of October, in the Consulship of Cn. Salix and Cn.
Equitius.

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus

Here here!

I think this is a good idea.

~T Aurelius Ursus

Salve Brutus ~

On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 09:53 PM, Quintus Brutus wrote:

> This may seem like a power grab by restoring positions to what they
> really are in the true Religio and not the diluted version.

So our Religio is "diluted" for having had women Pontiffs in the past?

Careful ~ Your misogyny is showing!

At least you're being more honest: You want a "True" Religio, one
without women in leadership roles. Well, that isn't Nova Roman: We
have our precedents and founding principles and many of us are
determined to see that we stick to them. Quit trying to ram your
archaic notions down our throats.

There is absolutely no indication that the Gods are displeased with
women Pontiffs: Given the success of the Religio's restoration to date,
it would seem that the Gods are in favour of our ways.

Vale
~ Troianus

Salve Athanasius ~

I suspect you're right; given our lack of Vestals and their importance
for the State Religio it would probably be best to accept any Lady
willing to take on the position and see how it goes. Chaste virgins
who intend to remain that way are distinctly lacking ~ another fact of
the times.

Vale bene
~ Troianus

On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 09:53 PM, AthanasiosofSpfd@...
wrote:

>
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.
>
> I would recommend allowing woman who are not virgins be allowed to be
> vestals, and give the vestals more authority within the Collegium. In
> ancient Rome
> vestals were taken care, in Nova Roma we cannot afford to take care of
> vestals so why should they be chaste full time. I saw allow woman in
> committed
> relationships be allowed to be vestals and on the Collegium [yeah, I
> know this
> opinion is not popular and that I will probably be attacked for it].
>
> Personally, if I had to choose between being a Flamen Pomonalis or a
> Pontifex I would choose Flamen...vote or no vote within the Collegium.
> As a Flamen
> I feel I make a difference, as a pontifex well...its political.
>
> Valete:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
>
> In a message dated 10/6/2004 9:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> cassius622@... writes:
>
> NOBODY in Nova Roma really holds "tremendous authority." That's not
> really
> the issue. The issue is whether or not women get to participate
> equally in
> Religio Romana leadership. This is also a wider issue - whether or
> not Nova
> Roma
> as a whole wishes to declare gender inequality as being worthy of
> revival
> as
> part of "the best of ancient Rome" by enshrining it as official
> policy in
> our own time.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, Q. Brutus, it IS about the honour of serving the Gods. Since we
HAVE had women Pontifices, and currently have a woman Candidate for
Pontifice, how can you possibly sit there and claim women cannot be
called to serve the Gods in this capacity? For that is what you are
essentially doing: You are stating Historicity trumps personal
spirituality, when in fact it didn't earlier in NR's existence and
still does not today.

Just what is it that YOU get out of excluding women, Q.Brutus? WHO is
doing the "power grab" by excluding women? Because the women are not
"grabbing" anything ~ They are merely stating that they WILL NOT
relinquish the right they have had since NR was founded.

Who are you to strip them of their rights?

~ Troianus

On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 10:38 PM, Quintus Brutus wrote:

>
>
> "Brutus, there is a difference between "access" and "equal access." In
> the Southern US in the 1950's, black people had "access" to public
> transportation, but had to sit in the less desirable seats in the
> rear, so the "better" seats could be enjoyed by whites only. That was
> unequal and unfair.
>
> Under the new system put in place by the Boni majority in the
> Collegium Pontificum, women do *not* have equal access to leadership
> in the Religio. They have access to the lower levels, but not the top
> two administrative levels of Priesthood. That means that they cannot
> participate equally in decisions,
> policy making, leadership of the major cults, deciding what is
> included in modern revival, what directions the Religio should take,
> etc. That is also unequal and unfair."
>
> --Well in any event your desired point is taken on the Old South but
> could've done better. Anyway, well no matter how you wish to look at
> "access" and contort varying levels of what "access" is shouldn't
> serving the gods be an honor? With that said why is the honor of
> serving them a problem? This shouldn't be about trying to get higher
> and higher up. That just comes across as a power-grab and makes it
> seem as people just seek positions so they can have a nice list going
> below their profile such as yourself, with Censor, Consul, Consul,
> ProConsul, ProConsul, etc...While public service is great and I'm not
> questioning you with what I said above but from those who argue
> fervently with the Moderati perspective frequently come across as
> simply not caring but just wanting power. Is this what this is about?
> Power? It should be an honor to serve the gods. However, if people
> took that seriously then there would really be this debate and arguing
> back and forth because they would be
> proud to serve the gods and not preoccupied with furthering their
> careers in Nova Roma.
>
> But I would ask of you an explanation perhaps of something you said
> prior to replying to my post. You said that your current beliefs
> regarding the Religio come from a
>
> "modern organizational practicality rather than on ancient
> scholarship." Then later on in the same post you said "I have never
> seen any reason why women were not allowed as Senators, Consuls or
> other magistrates, Voting Citizens, Lictors, Flamens, Pontifices,
> etc."
>
> Now the reason I bring these up is because while going through the
> Nova Roma website I recalled the Preamble of the Constitution stating
>
> "Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the
> Religio Romana. The primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote
> the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the
> period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal
> of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing
> such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language,
> and philosophy."
>
> So we've established the Religio is a centerpiece in Nova Roma.
> Because Just as Nova Roma is the "worldy focus" for the Religio, the
> opposite is true with the Religio being the "worldly focus" of Nova
> Roma. Furthermore, in the Religio Romana section of Nova Roma it
> states,
>
> "every attempt is made to rely on actual historical and archaeological
> evidence, and interpolations are made only when the primary sources
> are silent, and then we strive to be consistent with them."
>
> So what I am wondering is if the Religio is based off of historical
> evidence then why the debate? Evidence suggests a reliance on
> historical fact. But you say your belief comes from modern thought.
> How can it be both ways? This is not an attack on you. So don't
> charge me with that. I simply want clarification. Because reading
> one then the other to me sends mixed signals of saying one thing then
> wanting another.
>
> Vale, Quintus brutus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, the unfortunate latter exploits of their namesakes has caused a
raised eyebrow or two in our family. The names were selected only in
part because of my Romaphilia (is that the term?); mainly, it was
because my wife was in Rome (I, alas, was not) when she discovered a
child was on the way. When we found it was actually two children,
both sons, the names seemed hard to resist.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 01:01:00 -0000, pjane <pjane@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Cassius Petreius <petreius@g...>
> wrote:
> > I have not been too outspoken on the ML, but perhaps some have noticed
> > I'd vanished altogether over the past two weeks. That is because my
> > twin sons, Porter Romulus Orvetti and Miles Remus Orvetti, were born
> > on Monday, September 27.
>
> CONGRATULATIONS on the newest members of Gens Cassia! Thank you for sharing
> this
> most happy news with us -- this list needs all the happy news it can get.
> May they be
> blessed in every way, and may they dwell together in harmony, and NOT repeat
> the deeds
> of the ancient R&R...
>
> Patricia Cassia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I attended school at Hampshire College in Amherst... there are five
schools in a 25-mile radius there (UMass Amherst, Amherst College,
Smith, Mount Holyoke, and Hampshire), all of them pretty intellectual
schools. That might be a good place to start.

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 19:53:13 -0700 (PDT), Quintus Brutus
<quintus_cassius@...> wrote:

> Great idea, I'm gonna do my research on good solid universities around my
> area, CT, to start off at as a base run for promotional purposes. Yale
> University might be a good place or even in Hartford. Massachusetts might
> also be a good place to try. Any comments from Mass residents who are here?

Colleen McCullough's novels have many allusions to a general Roman
revulsion toward beer as a Germanic, barbaric potable... I'm not sure
how accurate this is, though.


On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 14:01:18 -0000, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete, roman people of the Quirites,
>
> Someone has some information about the drinking of beer in Rome? I
> know that on Ancient Egypt the Beer production was widespread, but in
> the Classic World I really never ever had information about,
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Salvete;

As long as the Vestals of Nova Roma are "part-time" like the rest of our
priests I think the restrictions on the Vestals should be similar. I think
requiring them to be chaste before they conduct ritual and during a set period of
time during the year would be sufficient in these days and times. I don't
think it would be appropriate for a woman in a poly relationship, but a woman
in a monogomous committed relationship would be -- in my opinion.

Valete;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 10/7/2004 12:51:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
hermeticagnosis@... writes:

Salve Athanasius ~

I suspect you're right; given our lack of Vestals and their importance
for the State Religio it would probably be best to accept any Lady
willing to take on the position and see how it goes. Chaste virgins
who intend to remain that way are distinctly lacking ~ another fact of
the times.

Vale bene
~ Troianus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano salutem dicit

I think you have an excellent idea. I would be interested in knowing if
others shared your request, but I would be more than happy to convene the
Collegium Augurium and the Collegium Pontificum to review these requests.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 10/6/2004 11:21:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
postumianus@... writes:

Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Collegiis Augurium et Pontificium salutem
dicit

Before the Senate and the Roman People of the Quirites, I, Quintus Caecilius
Metellus Postumianus, by virtue of my "right to seek and receive assistance
and advice from the State in matters of religious and social dispute
occurring both within and outside the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma,"
hereby make the following requests:

First, that the Collegium Augurium convene to investigate and make a
decision on the application of Patricia Cassia to the Pontificate. The will
of the Gods is more important than I could possibly phrase, and I think the
best way to handle this question (that is, the question of women in
traditionally and historically masculine positions), and similar questions
of diversion from the mos maiorum, is to determine the will of the Gods on
individual bases. Since we have, it seems, abandoned the practice of
inauguration of our pontifices, augures, flamines, and magistrates, I
believe that this is what should be done whenever an application for a
pontificate, augury, or flaminate is received.

Second, I respectfully request that the Collegium Pontificium pass a decree
requiring that the Collegium Augurium convene when an application for a
pontificate, augury, or flaminate is received, for the same reason as I
state above. As I say, since we have abandoned, it seems, the practice of
formal inauguration, I think that this may be the best course of action to
achieve the same result, though using different means.

About this second request, let me make a statement: I admit that I am far
ignorant of religious matters compared to the Collegium Pontificium, and
therefore I accept, without petition, whatever the Collegium would offer as
a response to my request, excepting the action of inaction. My preference
would be a return to the tradition of formal inauguration of our priests and
curule magistrates, but short of that, I do request at least something be
done which leans us that way.

This is my request, as a Citizen, as a Priest, and as a Civil Servant.

So made on these Nones of October, in the Consulship of Cn. Salix and Cn.
Equitius.

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's a saying where I live that "Shy bairns get nowt". With this
in mind, I'm going to blatantly advertise myself:

If any Magistrate requires a scribe or other appointed official, I
would be honoured to join his staff. I have administrative
experience and a lot of free time to dedicate to whichever task
that may be set.


I suppose if that doesn't work, I'll have to found my own
Micronation.

Vale


T. Octavius Salvius

G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano
S.P.D.

Salvete, virii.

I support the taking of an augury for Patricia Cassia --- if an
augury will then be taken for every member of the College. Perhaps
it is because no auguries were taken to begin with, and there might
be unsuitable members in the College of Pontiffs even as we speak,
that has caused the Gods to withold Their favor?

Why should Patricia Cassia be singled out?

Valete,

Cato

Salvete Quirites,

Senior Rogator A. Apollonius Cordus has provided me with the results of
the voting in the Comitia Centuriata and the Comitia Populi Tributa.
The results are as appear below. The three constitutional amendments
must yet be ratified by the Senate. The other five leges are effective
immediately.

In the comitia centuriata:

Lex Equitia de constitutione corrigenda:
yes 43
no 0
abstentions 8
23 centuries needed: law is passed.

Lex Equitia de gentibus:
yes 37 + 2 t.b.
no 4
abstentions 8
23 centuries needed: law is passed.

Lex Equitia Galeria de legibus ex post factis:
yes 33 + 4 t.b.
no 4 + 2 t.b.
abstentions 8
23 centuries needed: law is passed.


t.b. = added after tie-breaking.


In the comitia populi tributa:

Lex Equitia de tirocinio civium novorum:
yes 20 + 1 t.b.
no 8
abstentions 6.
15 tribes needed: law is passed.

Lex Equitia de civitate eiuranda:
yes 25 + 1 t.b.
no 2
abstentions 7.
15 tribes needed: law is passed.

Lex Equitia de vigintisexviris:
yes 23 + 1 t.b.
no 3 + 1 t.b.
abstentions 7.
15 tribes needed: law is passed.

Lex Equitia de familia:
yes 19
no 3 + 5 t.b.
abstentions 7.
15 tribes needed: law is passed.

Lex Equitia de iurisdictione:
yes 26 + 1 t.b.
no 1
abstentions 7.
15 tribes needed: law is passed.


t.b. = added after tie-breaking.

My thanks to all who voted, and most especially to the Rogators, who do
their work far from the public eye, but do it so very well.

Valete Quirites,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Consul

Salve;

I am doing a paper on the composition of the army of the republic.
Could someone direct me to some primary sources I could look at.

Tiberius Arcanos Agricoli.

Salve;

There will be elections soon, and there will be new magistrates in a few
months. You might have several takers for help once January is upon us.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 10/7/2004 9:38:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fin37@... writes:


There's a saying where I live that "Shy bairns get nowt". With this
in mind, I'm going to blatantly advertise myself:

If any Magistrate requires a scribe or other appointed official, I
would be honoured to join his staff. I have administrative
experience and a lot of free time to dedicate to whichever task
that may be set.


I suppose if that doesn't work, I'll have to found my own
Micronation.

Vale





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Because she is not yet a pontifex, and wants to be.

Modius

In a message dated 10/7/2004 9:44:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

Why should Patricia Cassia be singled out?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Spectata Patricia,

I obviously did not question about your serious feelings about Roman religion. I read you are serious and you want to go on in the path of Roman religion: your female nature will allow you to go VERY FAR, but not EVERYWHERE. That was my Roman point: which is the same for a male too. That's all.

You'll get more satisfaction being what you are than playing to be something that you will never be able to be. It is not simply matter of seroiusness and "work": there are spiritual factors too, an, by the way, there are great dangers going beyond the limits fixed by the Gods.


Reverenter

Gallus Solaris Alexander

Italia



____________________________________________________________
Libero ADSL: navighi gratis a 1.2 Mega, senza canone e costi di attivazione.
Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it

Salve Tiberi Arcane, et salvete Quirites,

Mike Abboud wrote:

> I am doing a paper on the composition of the army of the republic.
> Could someone direct me to some primary sources I could look at.

Polybius is the best primary source. See if you can locate a copy of
his Rise of The Roman Empire (Penguin Paperback), where he talks about
the composition of the Republican legions, how they were selected and
trained.

A comprehensive listing of Roman military references, written by our own
Quintus Fabius Maximus, is available in the files section of the
SodalitasMilitarium mailing list. The URL is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SodalitasMilitarium/files/ and the
filename is Militarium_References.htm. However those who are not
members of the Militarium won't be able to access it. So I'm including
a plain text version of the list below.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Forward
Research today on the Roman Army starts with interpreting written
sources, then finding collaborating evidence through archeology. A new
source is the reenacting aspect, where modern men attempt to recapture
some of the conditions of the Roman soldier especially in battle, with
reconstructed equipment. You the reader should be familiar with this
process. You are taking part in one, Nova Roma, although our goals are
much more lofty then just reenacting.
Q. Fabius Maximus

The Original Sources containing information on the Roman Army:
In Greek:
Arrianus On Tactics.
Appianus, Roman History
Dionysios of Halikarnassos, Roman Antiquities
Diodoros Siculus, History
Polybios, The Histories
Plutarch, Parallel Lives.
Herodian, History
Dio Cassius, Roman History
Onasander, On Generalship
Josephus, The Jewish War.
Zosimus, Imperial History
Procopius,History of the Wars.

In Latin:

Livius, History of Rome from its Foundation
Caesar, The Commentaries, The Civil War
Tacitus, The Histories, The Annals of Rome, Agricola, On Germania.
Suetonius,The Twelve Caesars
Ammianus Marcellinus,The History
Varius, The Lives of the Caesars.
Julian, Orations.
Frontinus, Stratagems
Vegetius. Epitome of Military Science
Seeck's Latin edition of the Notitia Dignitatum
was once available from Minerva Publications of Frankfurt am Main,
Germany, I am uncertain of its availability at this time

MODERN WORKS: The "Bibles" Must Reading about the Roman Army
The Roman art of War under the Republic.
F. E. Adcock
Still the best survey on the Republican army. Dated in places, but still
holds up well.

The Roman Legions
H.M.D Parker
Another bible. Still important, although some of new research and
findings especially in Germania and Britannia should included.

G. Watson, The Roman Soldier, Roman Imperial Army.
The other bible Though dated. Needs updating with new bibliography.

H. Russell Robinson, The Armor of Imperial Rome, Oriental Armor.
An excellent source for understanding Roman armor, and its
importance to the Roman Army

H.Delbruck, History of the Art of War within the framework of Political
History. Vol 1 Vol II
Lots of people don't read Hans any more believing him dated. His
conclusions for most part are still valid, and he walked most of the
battlefields which had not yet been modernized like today so he gives a
detailed approach to them.

Le Bohec, Yann The Imperial Roman Army
Good. Le Bohec is post structuralist, so he analyses the Roman army from
the POV why it serves the state not vice versa. Not enough annotation
though and starts at Principate and finishes before the Dominate.

Keppie, Lawrence. The Making of the Roman Army from Republic to Empire.
I was really disappointed with this. Parker has needed updating, and I
thought Keppie would by the one to do so, but nothing really new. Weak
on the Early and Manipular Legio. The best thing is the appendix, with
each Civil War legio listed by number. Handy reference.

W. Harris, War and Imperialism in Republican Rome.
Often overlooked and hard to find. Worth the read. Covers Why Rome went
to war, how war was declared and diplomacy was carried out, what was
expected of its classes in a war, and how the Senate played a major role
in avoiding wars that would have no value to Rome..

OTHER MODERN WORKS
E. Gabba, Republican Rome, the Army and the Allies

B Caven, The Punic Wars

T. Dodge, Caesar
Gen. Dodge walked all of the battlefields in Gaul and Civil War in the
late 1800s. Though dated, one cannot escape his compelling narrative and
his hand sketched maps. The bedside companion to Commentaries.

L. Rossi, Trajan's Column and the Dacian Wars.
The book to read about the Coulmn and its place in Roman society.

A. Goldsworthy, The Roman Army at War 100 BCE-CE 200.
Contains a detailed analysis on operational practices and the nature of
battle in the Late Republic and Early empire. Owes a lot to Parker's
Roman Legions, and scholars don't agree with all his conclusions.

J. Campbell The Emperor and the Roman Army

R. Cheesman, The Auxilia of the Roman Imperial Army
Dated, but a good start on the subject.

A Hyland Training the Roman Cavalry

Dixon & P Southern, The Roman Cavalry

E. Luttwak, The Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire.
A U.N strategist attempts apply modern military thought to the defense
of the Empire.
Interesting, but many of his conclusions are too modern.

S. Mattern, Rome and the Enemy.
An amazing book about how the Romans viewed themselves and their enemies
and how they conducted campaigns, with no educated War College General
Staff.

P Petit Pax Romana
The so called golden age of the Principate. How many wars were fought
during this peaceful period? Lots and one civil war. Petit discusses
them all.

A Ferrill, Roman Imperial Grand Strategy

B. Isaac, The Limits of Empire. The Roman Army in the East

J. Roth, The Logistics of the Roman Imperial Army at War (264 BC-AD 235)
Specialized analysis of the Later Principate's supply problems with
armies in the field.
Highly recomended.

N. Austin & B. Rankov, Exploratio: Military and Political Intelligence
in the Roman World from the Second Punic War to the Battle of Adrianople.
Interesting book. About the success and failures of Roman pre campaign
intelligence gathering.

D. Breeze and B. Dobson, Hadrian's Wall

A H M. Jones, The Later Roman Empire.
Though dated, still has importance, being the best over all survey about
the Dominate.
This is best read with Bury and Southern.

J.B Bury History of the Later Roman Empire. Two Volumes

H. M. D. Parker A history of the Roman World 138-337

Southern and Dickson The Late Roman Army
The book updates the reformed Dominate Roman army with a lot of new
findings especially the new excavations at Dura Europa

H. Elton, Warfare in Roman Europe AD 350~25 is an admirable and wide
ranging study of the Later Roman Army, and its treatment of its
barbarian allies.

R. MacMullen, Soldier and Civilian in the Later Roman Empire
A must read for a later Roman historian or reenactor.

E. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery.
Still the best source on the construction and use of Roman artillery.

JOURNALS:
Journal of Roman Studies
Published annually by the Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies.
Has frequent articles on findings to do with the Roman army.

Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies.
Recent research in this field on Roman Equipment is regularly published
bi annually in the Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies.

ARTICLES
E. Rawson, The Literary Sources for the Pre-Marian Roman Army', Papers
of the British School at Rome Vol 39 (1971), 13-31
L. Rawlings, Condottieri and Clansmen: "Early Italian Warfare and the
State.", in
K. Hopwood's Organized Crime in the Ancient World
Bell, M. 3. V. "Tactical reform in the Roman republican army", Historia
1965, p404
Frederiksen, Martin W. "Campanian cavalry: a question of origins",
Dialoghi di archaeologia, 2, 1968, p3
T. Cornell, B,Rankov, & P. Sabin, The Second Punic War: A Reappraisal
ICS London, 1996.
Coello, Unit Sizes in the Late Roman Army. BAR S645 (Oxford, 1996)

COFFEE TABLE BOOKS (Popular Publishing)
These are lavishly Illustrated books based on findings of current
schlorship.
While they have their place they cannot be considered quotable sources,
nor have 100% accurate depictions.

Connolly, Peter. Greece and Rome at War (London 1981)

Sir John Hackett (ed) Warfare in the Ancient World

J. Warry Warfare in the Classical World

T. Dupuy Military Life of Julius Caesar: Imperator

P. Connolly The Roman World - The Cavalryman

M. Windrow Imperial Rome at War.

M. Simpkins Warriors of Rome.
A noted reconstructionalist and friend, he is down in this section, only
because some of Fielding's drawings are inaccurate. Simpkins' equipment
is known world wide for its accuracy to sources and its attention to detail.

WARGAMING SOURCES

The Osprey Books
Osprey books are for wargamers to have a source to paint up miniature
figures. They have pretty pictures but dubious scholarship. I turned
down an offer to write for them for this reason.

In the Men at Arms Series
These are eighty page overall surveys with pretty pics
Early Roman Armies (1995)
Armies of the Carthaginian Wars 265-146 BC (1982)
Republican Roman Army 200-104 BC (1996)
The Roman Army from Caesar to Trajan (1974)
Guardians of the Roman Empire (Praetorians) (1994)
The Roman Army from Hadrian to Constantine (1979)
Romano-Byzantine Armies 4th - 9th Centuries (1988)

Osprey Warrior Series
These are specialized studies of a warrior's weapons, armor and tactics
in a certain period.
Late Roman Infantryman 236-565 AD
Late Roman Cavalryman 236-565 AD

Osprey Campaigns Series
Covers a specific campaign covering armies, numbers, strategies and
terrain analysis
Cannae 216 BC
Adrianople AD 378

More sources will be added to this list as they are published.
The study of the Roman Army is an ongoing subject and must constantly be
updated

Stephen Phenow
Editor/Publisher
Strategikon Magazine
Dedicated to in depth studies of pre gunpowder
era warfare

Salve Gai Modi, et Quirites,

Gaius Modius Athanasius writes:

> Because she is not yet a pontifex, and wants to be.

My studies of antiquity indicate that all pontifices were inaugurated
before entering office. Would you support inauguration for all
pontifices from this point forward? (I think you would, but I want to
make sure. It seems to me that your concern is not with Patricia's
gender, but with proper procedure.)

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salvete,

I like that idea and think that, perhaps, it should be done for
*everyone* that serves in a preisthood currently - flamen, pontiffs,
and sacerdos. I don't think Patricia Cassia should be singled out
either. Since we have two augurs now I don't think it would be too
much to ask to take auguries for the relatively small number who
make up the priesthood. I would like to know that Necessitas really
does accept me serving NR officially. I received personal signs but
that doesn't mean much in an offical sense.

Valete,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:

>
> G. Equitius Cato G. Modio Athanasio Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano
> S.P.D.
>
> Salvete, virii.
>
> I support the taking of an augury for Patricia Cassia --- if an
> augury will then be taken for every member of the College.

Perhaps

> it is because no auguries were taken to begin with, and there

might

> be unsuitable members in the College of Pontiffs even as we speak,
> that has caused the Gods to withold Their favor?
>
> Why should Patricia Cassia be singled out?
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato

Ave Gai Modi;
No auguries were taken for the previous female pontifices and
flamens, that is the established mos.

It really is the limit that someone like Patricia Cassia who has
worked for Nova Roma for 6 years and been instrumental in reviving
the Relgio is required to see if the gods approve of her actions!
all because she lacks a male apendage..

As the PM said this is not an historical use of augury. Under the mos
maiorum of Nova Roma and in accordance with our Constitution there
are female pontifices and flamens, as well as augurs.

The few Boni who rule the Collegium Pontificum are
destroying our mos, our tradition, and mocking our
Constitution.

bene vale
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
scriba Iuris et
Investigatio CFQ





In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:

>
> Because she is not yet a pontifex, and wants to be.
>
> Modius
>
> In a message dated 10/7/2004 9:44:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> Why should Patricia Cassia be singled out?
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

F. Galerius Aurelianus Flamen Cerealis S.P.D.

The cult of the Goddess Ceres is one of the only cults that
specifically mentions that women actively participated in some but
not all of Her festivals. Both Scheid and Spaeth specifically
mention that some of Her rites were celebrated by women "in the
Greek manner." There is also mention of a priestess associated with
the Cult of Cerealis that was not the wife of the flamen. Part of
my plans concerned with the restoration of the Cult of the Goddess
and the Aventine Triad is to insure that women are actively involved
in an official manner that is both historically and religiously
correct.

I appreciate the interest that has been shown in my request for
information on Ceres and the Aventine Triad. I hope to be able to
offer more rites, carmina, and other liturgical material as the
project continues.

May the Goddess grant Nova Roma bountiful harvests.

Valete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> As a member of the Collegium Pontificum, I support women being
able to hold
> the office of Pontifex in Nova Roma. I also support women being
able to hold
> the Flaminates in Nova Roma.
>
> Both positions have administrative and active religious duties.
Together
> they make up the two top levels of the Religio Romana. They are
the religious
> equivalents of the Senate and magistracies. All such offices were
open to men
> only in Roma Antiqua simply because gender inequality was an
unquestioned
> part of the social mores of ancient times.
>
> I don't find that it makes sense to declare in modern times that
male gender
> is the only criteria for administering a religion. I also don't
find it
> sensible to assert that male gender is the only criteria for
administering cults
> of major Goddesses - such as Ceres, Flora and Pomona.
>
> At the founding of NR it was decided that denying women equal
opportunities
> in both politics and religion did not constitute "reviving the
best of
> ancient Rome." Equality of the genders in all areas has been
officially considered
> "one of the few concessions to modern sensibilities" for the
first five years
> of NR. The Collegium Pontificum *and* the Flaminates have been
open to
> female Citizens for those five years. Only recently has this
policy been quietly
> suspended by a Boni majority in the Collegium Pontificum.
>
> As far as I am aware nearly all (if not every one of) the
conservatives who
> wish to instate "traditional gender roles" originally joined a
Nova Roma that
> allowed women to hold these positions. It is important to
remember that they
> are seeking to instate policies that are NEW to NR, rather than
upholding
> policies previously agreed upon by this community. In short they
originally
> agreed to conditions they have now changed for the rest of us
without consent of
> the community.
>
> Nova Roma has already had both female Pontifices and Flamines. The
fact that
> all have since quit Citizenship does not necessarily show disfavor
of the
> Gods. A far, far greater number of males who have held these
positions have also
> quit Citizenship.
>
> I do not advocate changing five years of Nova Roma policy, against
the will
> of the majority of the Citizens, to establish gender roles that
stem from
> social conditions which no longer exist.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

First, I apologize for being silent for the last 2 months, but I
have kept reading, just not responding. Comments inserted...

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Athanasius writes:
> There has been much talk about the research by Scaurus. While
Scaurus is a
> man a deeply respect I *wonder* WHY all the responsibility has
been placed on
> him. Why can't Marcus Cassius, our Pontifex Maximus, do his own
research?
>
> Cassius respondit:
> It was Scarus that proposed and volunteered to do this research
as a
> "compromise." This was the only alternative to Patricia Cassia
being denied
> outright by the Boni because of her gender. Both sides agreed to
Scarus' proposal,
> and no one had any reason to assume that Scarus would not do what
he said he'd
> do.
>
> Could I "do my own research?" Surely, although I don't pretend
to be the
> accredited classical scholar that Scarus is. He holds degrees in
this subject,
> and I believe he is on premises where he has a university library
available
> daily. There has been little cause for me to jump in and do what
Scarus said
> he'd do... until recently when it has begun to appear that Scarus
may no
> longer be doing the research at all.

Annia:
First, as the "chairman" of the group, much like a research or dept
head, our PM is not responsible for doing all the research and
should, in fact, do none of it. Instead he should assign it out
based on expertise and willingness. Scaurus volunteered and is
highly qualified to do research work. On the other hand, it would
have been better to have two people of opposite proclivities with
regard to the subject doing the research independently. "Soft"
science and humanities' studies are, by their nature, open to much
interpretation and influence. It is his duty to examine the work,
test or assign testing on the results and to implement changes based
on it. He appears to be waiting rather patiently to do that.
>
> Athanasius:
> Why can't he do what is necessary to present his opinion to the
Collegium
> with academic strength? If Marcus Cassius is the chairman of the
Collegium I
> would have assumed he would have wanted to conduct his own --
independant
> research -- to make sure that all sides of the debate were being
researched.
>
> Cassius:
> Again, it was Scarus who proposed research ought to be done, and
Scarus that
> volunteered to do it. Frankly, I have had no intention whatever
to present
> my ideas in this capacity on "academic strength." My reasons for
believing we
> should continue to include women as Pontifices and Flamens is
born for the
> most part on modern organizational practicality rather than on
ancient
> scholarship. We all know that women were not allowed into these
roles in Roma
> Antiqua. I confess I have always been interested in exactly what
Scarus intended to
> research when he volunteered, that is not already well known.
>
> In my last two decades of reading about the Religio as a private
enthusiast
> (as opposed to an accredited scholar) I have never seen any
reason why women
> were not allowed as Senators, Consuls or other magistrates,
Voting Citizens,
> Lictors, Flamens, Pontifices, etc. - except of course for the
prevalent
> social mores of the times. It is entirely possible there is not
much to be
> researched at all... which may be part of Scarus not achieving
anything to report.

Annia:
I think our PM has the right of it. I can find nothing that says it
wasn't allowed, only that it simply wasn't ever considered. And that
does appear to be strictly social in origin. It's like anything else
that simply isn't on the scope, it never gets talked about because
it just wasn't part of their thinking to get talked about.
>
> Athanasius writes:
> Marcus Cassius, as Pontifex Maximus, has the power to convene the
Collegium
> Pontificum and force a vote on your application for Pontifex. He
did not
> bring your application to an official vote, but backed down when
there was
> opposition.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> So I "backed down" rather than accept the compromise proposed by
Scarus?
> That's very interesting. This is the first I've heard of it.
>
> Athanasius:
> I would be happy, if I can get the help of another pontifex, to
> convene the Collegium Pontificum to bring your application to an
official
> vote.
> If this is your wish let me know.
>
> Cassius:
> I bet you would - just as you'd be happy to convene the College
of Augurs
> for a "one shot, never to be questioned again" augury on the
subject of women
> taking positions of leadership in the Religio Romana. You'll
pardon if I at
> least don't care to accept your one-sided terms.

Annia:
Doubts about anyone's intentions aside, augury is a special subject.
It is highly influenced by the will of the interpreter and I don't
think that anyone of good concience could really deny that. It is
also highly specialized to locale, so great care must be taken in
the differences for their area. Two people who read the history and
information regarding augury could come up with two very different
answers depending on locale alone. Here in Hawaii, I've been working
on it and due to the unique nature of avian behavior on an island
and the prevalence of ground birds (who would have been dinner in
Rome), the whole process of augury is very adapted. The lack of high
flying predatory species (there are almost none left here) also
throws a twist into it. Personally, I also don't think augury was
meant to reach all encompassing decisions either. Used on one
candidate, yes. Used to determine the fate of all future candidates,
no. That doesn't seem to fit to me. Also, two augurs of opposing
proclivities doing the augury appears to be neccessary to avoid any
unintentional influence.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

Salve, Fr. Apulus Caesar.

Sardinia was not part of the Roman sphere of influence until well
into the middle Republic. During most of the Republic, the
inhabitants of modern Sardinia, Corsica, and the Balearic Isles
(near Hispania) were considered only marginally civilized but were
recruited as mercenaries by the Greeks, Carthaginians, and later,
Romans as slingers and light irregular infantry. Beer, or actually
ale, was a common drink in many parts of the prehistoric
Mediterranean because viniculture was not introduced into the
western portions of the Mediterranean until the seventh or sixth
century B.C.E.
Sardinia was a land of sheperds and small farmers until fairly late
in the Republic.

F. Galerius Aurelianus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
wrote:

>
> Salvete Omnes,
> if this information could help you...
> The latest reseraches (2 months ago) said us that the first beer

(or

> it could be called better "drink similar to the beer") was created
> in Sardinia ealier than in Egypt. Archeologists found during teh
> last summer traces of the drink in the preistoric villages of the
> Nuraghe's tribes.
> This could indicate us that the beer was known by the Romans since
> the origins.
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Senator
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus

(Michael

> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve L. Armini Fauste,
> >
> > I like Ancient Roman cooking and read about the wine and beer. I
> > don't have time to show references this morning but I can tell

you

> > from what I read before that beer was certainly available in the
> > empire along with that fermented honey drink called mead.
> Certainly
> > they say there would have been more consumption and availability
> of
> > beer and mead in the northern provinces but more often than not,
> the
> > Romans themselves prefered wine while considering beer and mead

to

> > be the drink of the typical lout of a barbarian. Quite the
> attitude
> > is it not? I like both drinks myself though I steer clear of
> sugared
> > wines and the chemical beers made by the larger breweries.
> >
> > By the way, a few years ago some grain seeds were found in a

grave

> > site in Egypt. The grains were taken to England, planted in a
> green
> > house, harvested and made into beer following Ancient recepies.
> The
> > first few bottles were sold or auctioned for several thousand
> > dollars and there after a bottle sold for a few hundred. I'd

love

> to
> > have had a taste but such prices were out of my league.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> > <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete, roman people of the Quirites,
> > >
> > > Someone has some information about the drinking of beer in

Rome?

> I
> > > know that on Ancient Egypt the Beer production was widespread,
> but
> > in
> > > the Classic World I really never ever had information about,
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > > L. Arminius Faustus TRP

Salve, Pauline Caesarqve,

Thanks by the answers. Indeed, the beer plays a significant role on
modern world nowadays, and its fermentation have the same basic
principles of the wine, so... problably the tecnics of beer was as
know like the wine on Ancient, the difference was the growing of the
malt and the grapes. Evoé Father Bacchus Liber, the god that brings
happyness!

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <sacro_barese_impero@l...>
wrote:

>
> Salvete Omnes,
> if this information could help you...
> The latest reseraches (2 months ago) said us that the first beer

(or

> it could be called better "drink similar to the beer") was created
> in Sardinia ealier than in Egypt. Archeologists found during teh
> last summer traces of the drink in the preistoric villages of the
> Nuraghe's tribes.
> This could indicate us that the beer was known by the Romans since
> the origins.
>
> Valete
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
> Senator
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve L. Armini Fauste,
> >
> > I like Ancient Roman cooking and read about the wine and beer. I
> > don't have time to show references this morning but I can tell

you

> > from what I read before that beer was certainly available in the
> > empire along with that fermented honey drink called mead.
> Certainly
> > they say there would have been more consumption and availability
> of
> > beer and mead in the northern provinces but more often than not,
> the
> > Romans themselves prefered wine while considering beer and mead

to

> > be the drink of the typical lout of a barbarian. Quite the
> attitude
> > is it not? I like both drinks myself though I steer clear of
> sugared
> > wines and the chemical beers made by the larger breweries.
> >
> > By the way, a few years ago some grain seeds were found in a

grave

> > site in Egypt. The grains were taken to England, planted in a
> green
> > house, harvested and made into beer following Ancient recepies.
> The
> > first few bottles were sold or auctioned for several thousand
> > dollars and there after a bottle sold for a few hundred. I'd love
> to
> > have had a taste but such prices were out of my league.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> > <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete, roman people of the Quirites,
> > >
> > > Someone has some information about the drinking of beer in

Rome?

> I
> > > know that on Ancient Egypt the Beer production was widespread,
> but
> > in
> > > the Classic World I really never ever had information about,
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > > L. Arminius Faustus TRP

F. Galerius Aurelianus Q. Bruto Cassio. Salve.

Historically, it was not all rosy among the various cults in Old
Rome. The Capitoline Triad was Patrician-oriented, as were the
Arval Brethren, the Lupercii, and the Cult of the Magna Mater. The
Aventine Triad (Mater Ceres, Liber Pater, and Libera)were Plebeian-
oriented and had quite a long time disagreement with the Cult of the
Magna Mater. After the Magna Mater was introduced to Rome, the cult
of Ceres established ludi and special festivals in response to the
pushy, overbearing Patricians and their upstart imported Asian
Goddess. Nothing personal here, just bringing up the historic
record.
There was also quite an active bit of vying for devotees among the
Cult of Isis, the Cult of Serapis, the Cult of Mithras (men only),
and quite a few of the Phoenician-Syrian imported cults.
As the Flamen Cerealis, I am a Pleb and, traditionally, only Plebs
could be the Flamen or serve as one of the priestesses. The offices
of the Plebeian Aediles drew their name from the Temple of Ceres
(Aedes Cerealis) and the sanctity of the Tribunes was guaranteed by
the Temple of Ceres. The Plebs took an oath at the Temple of Ceres
to protect the Tribunes by force of arms if the Patricians attempted
to molest them in performance of their office. The records of the
Senate were stored at the Temple of Ceres from the beginnings of the
Republic to insure that the Patricians would not try to change the
laws to the detriment of the Plebs.
Just a little history.

Valete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Quintus Brutus
<quintus_cassius@y...> wrote:

>
> "I honestly don't think it is a lack of serious commitment

on 'all' CP members...some members I find are quite committed...it
is their lack of ability to 'sing as a chorus' so to speak"

>
> --In ancient Rome was everyone always singing as a chorus? Was

the CP all was in synch or were there divisions? Regardless of
whether they were all sharing common ground in religious conviction
or not they were still human. To me that simply means they were
very capable of being divided. This was certainly so in the
Senate. I only ask because I am no scholar on the Religio. With
that said with what little I do know I am taking into consideration
the humanity of Romans and as such their capability of making
mistakes and succumbing to greed, desire, etc. So was the CP of
Roma Antiqua always united? Or were there ever divisions? If this
is not known would it be possible that at times it might have been
and that any faults of the CP of Nova Roma is no exception?

>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

That's not quite right. There is at least one who has been towing
the line, so to speak, for multiple years...me. That said, it isn't
the restriction on chastity that is always the problem. In my case,
it is the disarray in the RR. Specifically, even though my duties
wouldn't require me to sacrifice a thing, it has been stated that I
would have to agree to the will of the CP and if the CP ordered me
to do a thing, I would have to do it. So..if they ordered me to be a
part of one, I would have to do it. That I can't do. This got a
sacerdos fired and banned and almost worst that that even though she
was in the same position of not being required to in her duties.

We can't blame it all on the chastity issue.

Valete,
Annia Octavia Indagatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
>
> Salvete;
>
> As long as the Vestals of Nova Roma are "part-time" like the rest
of our
> priests I think the restrictions on the Vestals should be
similar. I think
> requiring them to be chaste before they conduct ritual and during
a set period of
> time during the year would be sufficient in these days and
times. I don't
> think it would be appropriate for a woman in a poly relationship,
but a woman
> in a monogomous committed relationship would be -- in my opinion.
>
> Valete;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> In a message dated 10/7/2004 12:51:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> hermeticagnosis@e... writes:
>
> Salve Athanasius ~
>
> I suspect you're right; given our lack of Vestals and their
importance
> for the State Religio it would probably be best to accept any
Lady
> willing to take on the position and see how it goes. Chaste
virgins
> who intend to remain that way are distinctly lacking ~ another
fact of
> the times.
>
> Vale bene
> ~ Troianus
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

F. Galerius Aurelianus Flamen Cerealis S.P.D.

For most of the last week, I have been suffering from a couple of
nasty illnesses that have sidelined my activities. On October 4,
the Ieiunium Cerealis occurred and I kept the sacred fast. This was
not difficult since I couldn't keep any food down for long anyway.
Unfortunately, I was also unable to post or celebrate the public
rites. I deeply regret this and have offered sacrifice to the
Goddess and apologize to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for my
failure. In an effort to satisfy the Goddess and give Her honor, I
will celebrate the public rites on October 16 (October 4 on the
Julian Calendar) and offer a special piaculum to Her.

For those that honored the Goddess with prayers, sacrifice, and
keeping the Sacred Fast, I salute you for your piety and respect. I
also wish to thank those that have contributed information on the
restoration of the Cult of the Goddess.

May She grant you all bountiful harvests and full larders in the
coming year. May we all be together in five years to celebrate this
festival again.

Valete.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Flamen Cerealis S.P.D.

For most of the last week, I have been suffering from a couple of
nasty illnesses that have sidelined my activities. On October 4,
the Ieiunium Cerealis occurred and I kept the sacred fast. This was
not difficult since I couldn't keep any food down for long anyway.
Unfortunately, I was also unable to post or celebrate the public
rites. I deeply regret this and have offered sacrifice to the
Goddess and apologize to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for my
failure. In an effort to satisfy the Goddess and give Her honor, I
will celebrate the public rites on October 16 (October 4 on the
Julian Calendar) and offer a special piaculum to Her.

For those that honored the Goddess with prayers, sacrifice, and
keeping the Sacred Fast, I salute you for your piety and respect. I
also wish to thank those that have contributed information on the
restoration of the Cult of the Goddess.

May She grant you all bountiful harvests and full larders in the
coming year. May we all be together in five years to celebrate this
festival again.

Valete.

Q. Caecilius Metellus Omnibus salutem dicit.

Again, this was not addressed to me, but I think that in responding to this,
I can answer some of the questions raised which were directed to me, and
offer a response and clarification on one point.

The question here is why I have singled out Patricia Cassia. To which C.
Modius responded:

"Because she is not yet a pontifex, and wants to be."

This is precisely why. I have nothing against Patricia Cassia on any level
whatsoever. I think she would likely be a fine pontifex, and hope the Gods
will approve of her being one.

> My studies of antiquity indicate that all pontifices were
> inaugurated before entering office. Would you support
> inauguration for all pontifices from this point forward? (I
> think you would, but I want to make sure. It seems to me
> that your concern is not with Patricia's gender, but with
> proper procedure.)

And in response to this, the Consul is precisely right. In fact, we need to
be inaugurating our curule magistrates, pontifices, augures, and flamines
(about the response that all priests be inaugurated, this was not the case
in Antiquity). So, while not a pontifex, I would certainly support a
reversion to the practice of inauguration.

There was also a request that those currently serving in these positions be
inaugurated. That is an excellent suggestion, and one which should be put
into effect. Since they should have inaugurated in the first place, as the
old saying goes, "Better late than never."

Optime Valete in Pace Deorum,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus

G. Equitius Cato Q. Caecilio Metello Postumiano quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve, Caecilius Metellus et salvete, omnes.

I agree. So we have four requests right now to whichever magistrates
are involved:

1. To perform an augury for Patricia Cassia

2. To perform auguries for each member of the College of Pontiffs,
our magistrates, and all priests currently serving the Religio
Publica.

3. To reverse the religious edicta of St. Theodosius I which
destroyed the pax deorum.

4. To hold a public day of mourning and have a piaculum performed
for offenses wittingly or unwittingly against the Gods.

Would the magistrates responsible please let us know as soon as
possible A) who would be undertaking these requests, and B) what kind
of timeframe we could expect?


Vale et valete,

Cato

Salve Patricia Cassia!

> Yet there are those who claim that even the Sacerdos position,

which you and I both hold,

> is historically inaccurate.

That is true. Issues such as that is where I am torn, obviously, on
historical accuracy. I think NR should strive for *as much*
historical accuracy as possible but I am certainly not closed-minded
when it comes to necessary changes due to lack of information, etc.
I don't think women should be flamen. Women pontiffs - all pontiffs
really - should be included at the will of the gods. I would also
like to see, in the case of women pontiffs, some research done to
explain why there weren't any if that's possible. I understand that
Scaurus was doing such research but last I heard that has yet to
manifest. That's just my lowly opinion though. I think at any point
where our historical knowledge is lacking for whatever reason, we
should consult the gods even if that too is ahistorical. Such a
confusing situation! I'd rather see us cross the ahistorical
boundry and take an augry to confirm an action is approved of than
to take that action and hope it's ok.

> I very much agree that the Religio and its priesthoods stand in

need of improvement. May I

> invite you to lead the way? NR needs energy and problem-solving,

not yet another round

> of complaints.

I assumed (bad thing always I admit) that the CP should lead the way
for that. I look to them to be leaders in our attempt to
reconstruct the Religio though I may be completely wrong in that.
As was made clear when Maior was ousted by the CP, one major reason
was her *possible* defiance of the CP's wishes on the issue of
animal sacrifice. In my view of that I didn't think someone in the
service of a minor deity had the right to start organizing or
changing things. The CP seems (most of them I should clarify, there
are two that are very cooperative) to be very aloof. The personal
grudges and factional infighting seem to make them a directionless
or at least actionless body. However, I would be willing to put as
much time and energy as I can (though that is limited at the moment)
into assisting any efforts. When I took over as a legate in my
provincia I created that job from scratch so such an undertaking is
not outside of my abilities.

Vale bene,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia

BTW, on a side note a *large* part of the reason I posted my
dissatisfaction with things on the ML was due my former involvement
with the Boni. I know several members of the CP are Boni. I have
also seen many of the emails G. Modius received from Boni members
during and after his withdrawal from them. Let's just say that
leaving the Mafia would probably have been easier. Some of the Boni
can hold one *serious* grudge. For me to ask them for help seemed
pointless at best. Adding to that problem is the fact that your
husband and my pater seem to have some issues. I don't really
understand what those are but in light of that I figured I could
really only count on two of the pontiffs for help, not very good
odds in my mind.

Salve Quinte Caecili, et salvete Quirites,

Q. Caecilius Metellus wrote:

> And in response to this, the Consul is precisely right. In fact, we need to
> be inaugurating our curule magistrates, pontifices, augures, and flamines
> (about the response that all priests be inaugurated, this was not the case
> in Antiquity). So, while not a pontifex, I would certainly support a
> reversion to the practice of inauguration.

I'd really appreciate it if the Collegium Augurium could investigate the
different inauguration rites (I understand they weren't all exactly the
same) for the various offices, and have something ready by the end of
the year so that next year's curule magistrates can be properly
inaugurated. (Of course the Plebian Tribunes and Aediles would NOT be
inaugurated, in keeping with Plebian religious traditions.)

I *think* that Consul Astur and I effectively inaugurated ourselves the
first time each of us sought auspices for a Senate meeting. Since we
were exercising our ius auspicium, the Dii Immortales would have
indicated their displeasure with us had there been any displeasure. I
agree that it would have been better if the Augurs of Nova Roma had been
up and outside watching the skies on New Years morning, but at least in
the case of the Consuls, that's in the past now. I also would hesitate
to challenge the auctoritas of the Comitia Curiata, which bestowed our
imperium, by insisting on an ex post facto inauguration.

> There was also a request that those currently serving in these positions be
> inaugurated.

That gets complicated. As I understand it, both Augurs and our
Pullarius have self-inaugurated by virtue of taking auspices. So an
inauguration for them would be inappropriate, and might prove offensive
to the Dii Immortales. I'm less clear in my understanding of how the
inauguration of a sitting pontifex would go over. It's a question that
I'd want to Collegium Augurium to examine very carefully before they
proceeded with such an inauguration, and I certainly think a piaculum
ought to be performed afterward, just in case. I worry that some clear
sign of divine displeasure might be shown, but we wouldn't know if it
was because the immortals were displeased with that particular pontifex,
or were displeased by the rite of inauguration itself.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salve Agrippina Modia, et salvete Quirites,

Agrippina Modia Aurelia wrote:

> I'd rather see us cross the ahistorical
> boundry and take an augry to confirm an action is approved of than
> to take that action and hope it's ok.

I mostly agree with you, but I'll caution that augury only permits us to
know the opinion of the Dii Immortales right at this moment. Auspicia
are really only valid between dawn and dusk of the day they are taken.
So while it's perfectly reasonable for me to ask the Dii Immortales if
they're OK with me holding a Senate meeting or an election at some point
in the future, I still have to be watchful on the morning that the event
actually begins, and every morning it's in progress, for some indication
of divine displeasure.

On a separate note, did you (Agrippina) receive the private message I
sent to you yesterday?

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salve, Luci Corneli Sulla.

Some laws have just been passed in the comitia, including one allowing
citizens to seek emancipation. For those interested, this means you're
able to form your own familia within your current gens. But only for the
remainder of the year.

As you, Cornelius Sulla, are the active censor this month, I would like
to ask you how this process should be handled. Are we simply to submit a
request to your e-mail, or how are you planning to deal with the new
legislation, once it's been ratified by the senate?

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Salvete,

I too have heard that, in Rome and the Mediterranean areas of the Empire,
beer drinking by those in the northern provinces was considered to be pretty
barbaric. However, the Vindolanda Letters (Tabulae Vindolandenses) have
several references to beer supplies, so it seems the troops on Hadrian's Wall drank
what was available in Britannia, beer being the drink of the indigenous
Celtic tribes. The Romans did introduce wine production to Britannia, but the
vineyards were attached to private estates, so would not have been able to
supply a quantity of wine sufficient for the Roman Army. I have read that the
troops who came over with Claudius started off thinking that beer drinking was
barbaric, but pretty soon changed their tune when they developed a taste for
the stuff!

Valete,

Placidia Prisca


In a message dated 07/10/2004 14:39:32 GMT Standard Time,
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com writes:

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 01:56:42 -0400
From: Marcus Cassius Petreius <petreius@...>
Subject: Re: Beer in Rome


Colleen McCullough's novels have many allusions to a general Roman
revulsion toward beer as a Germanic, barbaric potable... I'm not sure
how accurate this is, though.


On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 14:01:18 -0000, Lucius Arminius Faustus
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete, roman people of the Quirites,
>
> Someone has some information about the drinking of beer in Rome? I
> know that on Ancient Egypt the Beer production was widespread, but in
> the Classic World I really never ever had information about,
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus TRP
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i learned to love beer in the u.s. army. what a
co-inky-dink.
--- KECTAM@... <KECTAM@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete,
>
> I too have heard that, in Rome and the Mediterranean

areas of the Empire,

> beer drinking by those in the northern provinces was

considered to be pretty

> barbaric. However, the Vindolanda Letters (Tabulae

Vindolandenses) have

> several references to beer supplies, so it seems the

troops on Hadrian's Wall drank

> what was available in Britannia, beer being the

drink of the indigenous

> Celtic tribes. The Romans did introduce wine

production to Britannia, but the

> vineyards were attached to private estates, so

would not have been able to

> supply a quantity of wine sufficient for the Roman

Army. I have read that the

> troops who came over with Claudius started off

thinking that beer drinking was

> barbaric, but pretty soon changed their tune when

they developed a taste for

> the stuff!
>
> Valete,
>
> Placidia Prisca
>
>
> In a message dated 07/10/2004 14:39:32 GMT Standard

Time,

> Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 01:56:42 -0400
> From: Marcus Cassius Petreius <petreius@...>
> Subject: Re: Beer in Rome
>
>
> Colleen McCullough's novels have many allusions to

a general Roman

> revulsion toward beer as a Germanic, barbaric

potable... I'm not sure

> how accurate this is, though.
>
>
> On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 14:01:18 -0000, Lucius Arminius

Faustus

> <lafaustus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete, roman people of the Quirites,
> >
> > Someone has some information about the drinking

of beer in Rome? I

> > know that on Ancient Egypt the Beer production

was widespread, but in

> > the Classic World I really never ever had

information about,

> >
> > Vale,
> > L. Arminius Faustus TRP
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

>

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





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Salve Agrippina Modia Aurelia,


Before I go forward with a response I would like to give a metaphoric
example. The old adage of pessimistic and optimistic attitude towards a
situation or individual; �Is the glass of water half full or half empty�
Many say this metaphor will tell much about a circumstance, I personally see
this adage in a different way than most, it is simply half a glass neither
full nor empty. When viewing the glass of water as simply being, in
relation to itself, there are many more directions one can go. That stated
let me continue with my response.

--
I am the Sacerdos Necessitas. I was accepted as such not long ago.
To date, guess how much guidance I have received from the
Collegium? Zip, Zero, NONE.

* I am glad that you have chosen to take on the duties of such an important
office, as to be our Sacerdos Necessitas. However, like you I am also
disappointed with some of the internal functions of NR. My disappointment
stems from personal experience concerning one of my gens members repeated
attempts to join the priesthood of Vulcan. He applied several times a few
years back and became discouraged with the lack of response and support. I
attempted to assist him in his quest to become a priest and sent several
emails on his behalf to see if I as a Materfamilias could elicit a response,
my attempt at assistance sadly was also of no avail. Unfortunately, I am to
unfamiliar with this process to offer any suggestion as to a resolution to
this inequity.

--
First, the application process. It is a joke. I *never* expected
to be accepted on my first try. I did, however, expect to be
contacted by the Collegium via email or IM or something with some
questions, an interview if you will. Nope.

* Personally I am happy that you were accepted, no matter the grounds or
reasoning. I am glad because this very important office is now filled with
a person who is earnest in their interest to serve it well. It is your
emotion and passion about this situation that has stirred this response in
me; for if you were not emotionally connected to the ideals of the office
you would not have such a strong response to its circumstance. I offer my
thoughts to Minerva on this regard, and hope that she brings support to your
side in your efforts to conduct these duties.

--
Post-approval. I still did not receive any official word on what
the CP expected of me, I guess the website was supposed to serve
that purpose. I serve a minor deity with, to my knowledge, no
surviving rituals. It would be nice if the CP could outline what is
expected of sacerdos in this position. Perhaps a basic ritual
outline or something that I can arrange for use with my deity.
Nope. Nothing.
* I do not wish to sound haughty in the statements I am about to make, but
I believe in this situation it may be needed. Perhaps the CP do not
themselves know what the duties are of your office. Or perhaps they have
not had the time or proper material to post such information on the site as
of yet. However, it would be logical to suggest that this information
should have been at least outlined at some point in order for NR to have
been recognized as such a historical oriented reconstruction group. Perhaps
someone on this list would know where to find such material and can direst
you to them.

--
Cato has asked people for their personal experiences with the
Religio. Well, Cato, here are some of my recent experiences as
Sacerdos Necessitas:

Even before I was accepted into the role, I felt that the gods were
rather displeased with NR. This varied in degree and it became
apparent that when this list is embroiled in a fierce battle the
gods are most displeased. . . . On those days I don't even bother with my
lararium rites, . . .

* I once read a story (Greek story that I know of no Roman equivalent).
The gist of the story was about King Agamemnon going to Delphi to ask a
question about proper worship of the gods and the response he received.
From what I remember of the story, Agamemnon had asked what a rightful or
pious sacrifice to the gods should be, with the purpose of him being at the
top of the list with his offering of a 100 bulls to the gods just before the
question was asked of the oracle. The response he received was not what he
expected. He expected to hear from the oracle that his offering was
righteous and pleasing to the gods, but instead he was told of an old man
who was a meager Shepard living in the remote mountains of Greece as being
the most pious and dutiful in his respect to the gods. Agamemnon was so
disturbed by the outcome of the oracles words that he made his way to the
home of this old man and asked him why the gods saw his offering as the most
suitable and not that of Agamemnon�s great gift of bulls. The old man was
poor and could afford no luxurious offerings, however without delay every
morning before he himself ate he first offered a portion to the gods, even
when he was ill he still made this simple offering without delay and did it
consistently throughout his life. To me this story suggests that piety and
right action towards building a good relationship with the gods is not
measured by what type of offering is given, but instead that it is given in
an earnest manner.

At my first introduction to this story I only partially realized its full
meaning; however after reading the philosophical views of Epectitus and
Emperor Marcus Arailius I understood its metaphors more fully. Through
their insights I came to understand that to build a reciprocal relationship
with the god�s one must be sincere in their offerings no matter how little
or how much one can offer the gods. In addition, one can not allow the
lack, shortcomings, or misunderstandings of others to stand in the way of
such an important relationship between you and the gods. With this in mind
I would suggest that you should perhaps focus on building a greater
relationship with the gods especially if you are to serve as a priestly
representative of the people of NR, and even if the CP (? hoping I referred
correctly here) do not appear to support you or assist in a way that would
make things clearer for you. I know that the Romans were very strict and
somewhat superstitious when it came to performing rituals to the gods,
however much of the material describing ancient ceremonies is missing from
our current understanding of their/our religio. At best reconstructing the
religio is going to be a daunting task with few historic hinge stones to
stand on. I would suggest that building a good relationship between you and
the gods would do much to further this goal, and then no ill will befall us
or you. I am also sure if you take this step that the gods will not fail
you or us. I know that my words may sound harsh or judging however they are
not intended to. I simply wish you to meditate on the meaning of your
office in relation to the good of NR without the lenses of disappointment
overcastting the good you can do.

. . .

--
Lots of things get proposed but nothing really seems to get done.
The Religio seems to get little respect in NR and probably for good
reason. . . .

* I have also noticed many inconsistencies concerning action and proposed
action. Perhaps this is due to the fact that we as a group are so spread
out in the world. I have noticed that it can be very difficult to build a
functioning relationship with a group or an individual without a physical
presence. As an example, I have also noticed that many of the gens� that
function the best keep in close contact with their members, and have greater
success because their members live close together. This suggests to me that
building community is a key factor to success in any group. However, how do
we build community in a group as spread out as NR is?

In response to the Religio and a lack of functionality and acceptance
perhaps this gap can be bridged by a better understanding and greater
interest in it as a �functioning� institute within NR.

--
The Religio seems to be a very impersonal thing for outsiders and
oftentimes for insiders as well. . . .

Why did I bring this here instead the list designated for those in
the priesthood or write to the Collegium? I believe *everyone*
should hear this be they a practitioner or not. The Religio
performs it's actions for the benefit of *everyone* in NR, not just
those who practice the rites so hopefully if enough of NR raises a
big enough stink *maybe* something will get done.

* I have been grappling with some of these same questions, views, and
rationales while rebuilding my gens� web page. I wish to put up proper
rituals and historically correct information concerning personal offerings
to the Lares, Penates, and chosen deities of my gens. I am finding it an
arduous process though slowly I am finding what I need to obtain my goal. I
believe you were right to bring your thoughts, concerns, and question to
this list because if we as a group do not understand how the inner workings
of our group (NR) function then we can do nothing to better our situation.
Thank you for coming forward with your concerns, for I am sure you are not
the only one with such things on their minds.


Vale,
Prima Ritulia Nocta

_________________________________________________________________
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more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx

Oops, I think I may have posted a responce incorrectly to Agrippina instead
of Patricia. My intention was to address the origional post(er). Sorry for
any confusion.

Ave,
Prima Ritulia Nocta

_________________________________________________________________
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Thank you any more ideas would be great



Vale

Tiberius Arcanus Agricola

<mailto:mikeabboud@...> mikeabboud@...



<http://www.mikeabboud.com> www.mikeabboud.com

<http://mikeabboud.blogspot.com/> http://mikeabboud.blogspot.com/

_____

From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus [mailto:gawne@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:18 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The Army of the republic



Salve Tiberi Arcane, et salvete Quirites,

Mike Abboud wrote:

> I am doing a paper on the composition of the army of the republic.
> Could someone direct me to some primary sources I could look at.

Polybius is the best primary source. See if you can locate a copy of
his Rise of The Roman Empire (Penguin Paperback), where he talks about
the composition of the Republican legions, how they were selected and
trained.

A comprehensive listing of Roman military references, written by our own
Quintus Fabius Maximus, is available in the files section of the
SodalitasMilitarium mailing list. The URL is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SodalitasMilitarium/files/ and the
filename is Militarium_References.htm. However those who are not
members of the Militarium won't be able to access it. So I'm including
a plain text version of the list below.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Forward
Research today on the Roman Army starts with interpreting written
sources, then finding collaborating evidence through archeology. A new
source is the reenacting aspect, where modern men attempt to recapture
some of the conditions of the Roman soldier especially in battle, with
reconstructed equipment. You the reader should be familiar with this
process. You are taking part in one, Nova Roma, although our goals are
much more lofty then just reenacting.
Q. Fabius Maximus

The Original Sources containing information on the Roman Army:
In Greek:
Arrianus On Tactics.
Appianus, Roman History
Dionysios of Halikarnassos, Roman Antiquities
Diodoros Siculus, History
Polybios, The Histories
Plutarch, Parallel Lives.
Herodian, History
Dio Cassius, Roman History
Onasander, On Generalship
Josephus, The Jewish War.
Zosimus, Imperial History
Procopius,History of the Wars.

In Latin:

Livius, History of Rome from its Foundation
Caesar, The Commentaries, The Civil War
Tacitus, The Histories, The Annals of Rome, Agricola, On Germania.
Suetonius,The Twelve Caesars
Ammianus Marcellinus,The History
Varius, The Lives of the Caesars.
Julian, Orations.
Frontinus, Stratagems
Vegetius. Epitome of Military Science
Seeck's Latin edition of the Notitia Dignitatum
was once available from Minerva Publications of Frankfurt am Main,
Germany, I am uncertain of its availability at this time

MODERN WORKS: The "Bibles" Must Reading about the Roman Army
The Roman art of War under the Republic.
F. E. Adcock
Still the best survey on the Republican army. Dated in places, but still
holds up well.

The Roman Legions
H.M.D Parker
Another bible. Still important, although some of new research and
findings especially in Germania and Britannia should included.

G. Watson, The Roman Soldier, Roman Imperial Army.
The other bible Though dated. Needs updating with new bibliography.

H. Russell Robinson, The Armor of Imperial Rome, Oriental Armor.
An excellent source for understanding Roman armor, and its
importance to the Roman Army

H.Delbruck, History of the Art of War within the framework of Political
History. Vol 1 Vol II
Lots of people don't read Hans any more believing him dated. His
conclusions for most part are still valid, and he walked most of the
battlefields which had not yet been modernized like today so he gives a
detailed approach to them.

Le Bohec, Yann The Imperial Roman Army
Good. Le Bohec is post structuralist, so he analyses the Roman army from
the POV why it serves the state not vice versa. Not enough annotation
though and starts at Principate and finishes before the Dominate.

Keppie, Lawrence. The Making of the Roman Army from Republic to Empire.
I was really disappointed with this. Parker has needed updating, and I
thought Keppie would by the one to do so, but nothing really new. Weak
on the Early and Manipular Legio. The best thing is the appendix, with
each Civil War legio listed by number. Handy reference.

W. Harris, War and Imperialism in Republican Rome.
Often overlooked and hard to find. Worth the read. Covers Why Rome went
to war, how war was declared and diplomacy was carried out, what was
expected of its classes in a war, and how the Senate played a major role
in avoiding wars that would have no value to Rome..

OTHER MODERN WORKS
E. Gabba, Republican Rome, the Army and the Allies

B Caven, The Punic Wars

T. Dodge, Caesar
Gen. Dodge walked all of the battlefields in Gaul and Civil War in the
late 1800s. Though dated, one cannot escape his compelling narrative and
his hand sketched maps. The bedside companion to Commentaries.

L. Rossi, Trajan's Column and the Dacian Wars.
The book to read about the Coulmn and its place in Roman society.

A. Goldsworthy, The Roman Army at War 100 BCE-CE 200.
Contains a detailed analysis on operational practices and the nature of
battle in the Late Republic and Early empire. Owes a lot to Parker's
Roman Legions, and scholars don't agree with all his conclusions.

J. Campbell The Emperor and the Roman Army

R. Cheesman, The Auxilia of the Roman Imperial Army
Dated, but a good start on the subject.

A Hyland Training the Roman Cavalry

Dixon & P Southern, The Roman Cavalry

E. Luttwak, The Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire.
A U.N strategist attempts apply modern military thought to the defense
of the Empire.
Interesting, but many of his conclusions are too modern.

S. Mattern, Rome and the Enemy.
An amazing book about how the Romans viewed themselves and their enemies
and how they conducted campaigns, with no educated War College General
Staff.

P Petit Pax Romana
The so called golden age of the Principate. How many wars were fought
during this peaceful period? Lots and one civil war. Petit discusses
them all.

A Ferrill, Roman Imperial Grand Strategy

B. Isaac, The Limits of Empire. The Roman Army in the East

J. Roth, The Logistics of the Roman Imperial Army at War (264 BC-AD 235)
Specialized analysis of the Later Principate's supply problems with
armies in the field.
Highly recomended.

N. Austin & B. Rankov, Exploratio: Military and Political Intelligence
in the Roman World from the Second Punic War to the Battle of Adrianople.
Interesting book. About the success and failures of Roman pre campaign
intelligence gathering.

D. Breeze and B. Dobson, Hadrian's Wall

A H M. Jones, The Later Roman Empire.
Though dated, still has importance, being the best over all survey about
the Dominate.
This is best read with Bury and Southern.

J.B Bury History of the Later Roman Empire. Two Volumes

H. M. D. Parker A history of the Roman World 138-337

Southern and Dickson The Late Roman Army
The book updates the reformed Dominate Roman army with a lot of new
findings especially the new excavations at Dura Europa

H. Elton, Warfare in Roman Europe AD 350~25 is an admirable and wide
ranging study of the Later Roman Army, and its treatment of its
barbarian allies.

R. MacMullen, Soldier and Civilian in the Later Roman Empire
A must read for a later Roman historian or reenactor.

E. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery.
Still the best source on the construction and use of Roman artillery.

JOURNALS:
Journal of Roman Studies
Published annually by the Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies.
Has frequent articles on findings to do with the Roman army.

Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies.
Recent research in this field on Roman Equipment is regularly published
bi annually in the Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies.

ARTICLES
E. Rawson, The Literary Sources for the Pre-Marian Roman Army', Papers
of the British School at Rome Vol 39 (1971), 13-31
L. Rawlings, Condottieri and Clansmen: "Early Italian Warfare and the
State.", in
K. Hopwood's Organized Crime in the Ancient World
Bell, M. 3. V. "Tactical reform in the Roman republican army", Historia
1965, p404
Frederiksen, Martin W. "Campanian cavalry: a question of origins",
Dialoghi di archaeologia, 2, 1968, p3
T. Cornell, B,Rankov, & P. Sabin, The Second Punic War: A Reappraisal
ICS London, 1996.
Coello, Unit Sizes in the Late Roman Army. BAR S645 (Oxford, 1996)

COFFEE TABLE BOOKS (Popular Publishing)
These are lavishly Illustrated books based on findings of current
schlorship.
While they have their place they cannot be considered quotable sources,
nor have 100% accurate depictions.

Connolly, Peter. Greece and Rome at War (London 1981)

Sir John Hackett (ed) Warfare in the Ancient World

J. Warry Warfare in the Classical World

T. Dupuy Military Life of Julius Caesar: Imperator

P. Connolly The Roman World - The Cavalryman

M. Windrow Imperial Rome at War.

M. Simpkins Warriors of Rome.
A noted reconstructionalist and friend, he is down in this section, only
because some of Fielding's drawings are inaccurate. Simpkins' equipment
is known world wide for its accuracy to sources and its attention to detail.

WARGAMING SOURCES

The Osprey Books
Osprey books are for wargamers to have a source to paint up miniature
figures. They have pretty pictures but dubious scholarship. I turned
down an offer to write for them for this reason.

In the Men at Arms Series
These are eighty page overall surveys with pretty pics
Early Roman Armies (1995)
Armies of the Carthaginian Wars 265-146 BC (1982)
Republican Roman Army 200-104 BC (1996)
The Roman Army from Caesar to Trajan (1974)
Guardians of the Roman Empire (Praetorians) (1994)
The Roman Army from Hadrian to Constantine (1979)
Romano-Byzantine Armies 4th - 9th Centuries (1988)

Osprey Warrior Series
These are specialized studies of a warrior's weapons, armor and tactics
in a certain period.
Late Roman Infantryman 236-565 AD
Late Roman Cavalryman 236-565 AD

Osprey Campaigns Series
Covers a specific campaign covering armies, numbers, strategies and
terrain analysis
Cannae 216 BC
Adrianople AD 378

More sources will be added to this list as they are published.
The study of the Roman Army is an ongoing subject and must constantly be
updated

Stephen Phenow
Editor/Publisher
Strategikon Magazine
Dedicated to in depth studies of pre gunpowder
era warfare






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