Salve T. Octavi Salvi,

One more Quaestor? Oh, I could think of a few suggestions...
starting with you if you have been a citizen long enough. Well there
are a few days left in our current administration as Consul Marinus
pointed out earlier today. I am not that sure on the laws at the
moment but I think there has to be a sort of bi-election called for
this office, a declaration of candidacy etc. I think the senate can
appoint someone after a certain time frame. Perhaps one of our
experts can explain better.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius" <fin37@h...>
wrote:

>
> Hmmm, maybe I wasn't blatent enough in that first bit ;-)
>
> Salvius
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Congratualtions to all our Questores- believe me you will work
> hard;-
> > , and Gaia Fabia Livia as Cururle Aedile, I am pretty enthused
> about
> > our games in the futur
> > and our Plebian Aedile M.C. Serapio! only the best!
> >
> > M. Arminia Maior Fabiana TP
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius" <fin37@h...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes
> > >
> > > I notice we're one Quaestor short....cough...cough. I wonder

who

> > > would heroically take on that responsibility...cough...loyalty
> to
> > > Nova Roma.....cough...
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway, congratulations are in order to all those who

triumphed

> in
> > > the elections, especially to my governor and (now) Curule
> Aedile,
> > > Gaia Fabia Livia.
> > >
> > > valete
> > >
> > >
> > > T. Octavius Salvius

Salvete Omnes,

I would like to thank all who voted for me in my run for Tribunus
Plebis this
year. I would like to congratulate all of our new Tribunes. Even though
I did
not win I will be glad to assist any of the new Tribunes in the future
if
possible.

Valete,

Quintus Servilius Fidenas
Propraetor, America Medioccidentalis Superior
Lictor Curiatas
Paterfamilias of Gens Servilia

iChatAV/AIM/Yahoo: QServilius

PS: I'll try again next year!

In a message dated 12/29/04 6:13:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gawne@... writes:

> Lucius
> Sicinius Drusus from participation in the Senate of Nova Roma until such
> time as the Tribunes and Pontifices resolve the issues surrounding his
> Settlement and Oath with them, is hereby rescinded.
>
> II. The Tribunes have reported to me that they and the Pontifices have,
> by majority decision, concluded that Lucius Sicinius Drusus violated the
> terms of his Settlement and Oath.

Except the Pontifices did no such thing, you liar!
We did not want to demean ourselves by getting down in the mud with you!
You are the disgrace to Nova Roma you *****!!!

All this has ever been was political maneuvering. And politics being used
against a man that has more knowledge about Rome, the Religio and its culture
then average here in Nova Roma is not only reprehensible but illegal!

The Boni never once used their position of authority to throw any citizen out
if they were against their politics. So I guess we were never as bad as your
alliance.

The Senate as the board of Directors of Nova Roma INC must vote 2/3rd
majority to remove
a BoD member. Since the Senate is appalled by such an action except for your
bootlickers you don't have the votes!

I will tell you right now, that this is not over.

I hope can only hope the other consul vetos this action so we do not have to
take this to macronational court

You really crossed the line here. This is a club of Roman enthusiasts not
your personal fiefdom!

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites, et salve Quinte Lani,

Next year's incoming consuls will have to call a special election in
January to fill the unfilled office of Quaestor and webmaster. Likewise
next year's Tribunes will have to call a special election to fill the
vacant office of Plebeian Aedile. There will have to be a call for
candidates first, of course.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

> One more Quaestor? Oh, I could think of a few suggestions...
> starting with you if you have been a citizen long enough. Well there
> are a few days left in our current administration as Consul Marinus
> pointed out earlier today. I am not that sure on the laws at the
> moment but I think there has to be a sort of bi-election called for
> this office, a declaration of candidacy etc. I think the senate can
> appoint someone after a certain time frame. Perhaps one of our
> experts can explain better.

Salve omnes !

Congratulation to all winning candidates, especially to my friends :
- Marcella Martiana
- Iulius Perusianus
- Iulius Sulla
- Lanius Paulinus

Vale,
Ivl Sabinvs



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

P. Minius Albucius Qu. Servilio Fidenati s.d.

S.V.G.E.R.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Quintus Servilius Fidenas
<qservilius@a...> wrote:

> "Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to thank all who voted for me in my run for Tribunus
> Plebis this year. I would like to congratulate all of our new

Tribunes. Even though I did not win I will be glad to assist any of
the new Tribunes in the future if possible. (..)"

More valorous are the competitors, more beautiful is the race.

I would like to pay here a sincere homage to you and to Hon. C.
Vipsanius Agrippa who both allow the democratic debate for Tribune
to exist and all the candidates to precise their views on how to
serve Nova Roma, her/his Plebs and institutions.

Please give my humble and respectful regards to America
Medioccidentalis Superior Provincia citizens. I remain at their
service as a new elected Tribunate of the Plebs.

Optime vale, Servilius.

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. IV Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis wrote:

> Salvete, Quirites,
>
> I want to thank here all the citizens who voted for me and thus

enable me to reach, as Quaestor, a significant office of our
Republic. (..)

Congratulations to you, specially : the Quaestorial office will have
with you a respectful and hard working delegate. Thanks again for
your wise advices in my running for Tribune.


Mox et optime vale, Minervalis.

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. IV Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

Publius Minius Albucius M. Arminiae Maiori ac aliis Tribunis s.d.

S.V.G.E.R.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> By Ceres and Diana protectresses of the Plebians;
>
> "According to tradition their institution goes back to 494
> B.C. ...These officers were given (a) the right of convening the
> assembly of the plebs ..and eliciting resolutions from them...(b)
> Intercessio, i.e. the right to veto any magisterial act, including
> such acts as bringing a bill before the assembly. (c) Auxilium,
i.e.
> the right to protect the plebians, especially against punishment
by
> the magistrates." Historical Introduction to Roman Law, Jolowicz
p.11
>
> I congratulate my fellow Tribunes, Saturninus, Fuscus, Bianchius
and Albucius and pledge this year to work with them harmoniously to
serve the Plebs, to go to the Comitia for resolutions, to increase
our Romanitas

Thanks for this useful quotation and for your congratulations. I
naturally send you back the homage and join you to honour our
elected colleagues. I am sure that 2758 will be a useful working
year for our Tribunate.


Optime vale(-te), Collega(e).

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. IV Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

Salve Romans ( My second attempt at posting this)

"Roma locuta est. Causa finita est"
(Rome has spoken. The cause is finished.)

I want to congratulate Gn. Equitius Marinus on his election as
Censor. He will do an outstanding job and he has my best wishes for
a great year.

I also want to congratulate our new Consuls Franciscus Apulus Caesar
and Gaius Popillius Laenas. I believe this is a very good team that
will work hard for Nova Roma and our future.

And finally I want to convey my sincere congratulations to Lucius
Arminius Faustus and Marcus Iulius Perusianus on their elections as
Praetors. A very impressive win and I wish them nothing but the
best for the coming year.

Thanks also goes to those of you who voted for me and especially to
those who took the time to endorse my candidacy.

I have totally enjoyed my service as Tribune this year and want to
thank the Plebian citizens for this honor.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tribunus Plebs

(I am suffering from computer problems, to the extent that I have a
tech coming to the house on Friday, at $75.00 and hour to try and
get it fixed. I am keeping up by reading the posts to the Yahoo site
but I am having extreme problems in posting and I am not recieving
any posts at all in my e-mail)

Salve Iuli Sabini,

Thank you so much for your good wishes!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, iulius sabinus
<iulius_sabinus@y...> wrote:

> Salve omnes !
>
> Congratulation to all winning candidates, especially to my

friends :

> - Marcella Martiana
> - Iulius Perusianus
> - Iulius Sulla
> - Lanius Paulinus
>
> Vale,
> Ivl Sabinvs
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Quintus Lanius Paulinus,

Thank you for that suggestion (it's not far off an endorsement!).
I'll confess that my previous comments were a bit tongue in cheek. I
had considered standing in the elections for Quaestor, but alas I'm
too young to run.

I'd need permission from the Censor and the Senate to even declare
my candidacy, and I think that's only given if there's no-one else.

Actually, since there was no-one else, would I have been elected had
I asked for permission in these elections? Wouldn't that be a turn
up?

vale

Salvius

> Salve T. Octavi Salvi,
>
> One more Quaestor? Oh, I could think of a few suggestions...
> starting with you if you have been a citizen long enough. Well

there

> are a few days left in our current administration as Consul

Marinus

> pointed out earlier today. I am not that sure on the laws at the
> moment but I think there has to be a sort of bi-election called

for

> this office, a declaration of candidacy etc. I think the senate

can

> appoint someone after a certain time frame. Perhaps one of our
> experts can explain better.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius"

<fin37@h...>

> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, maybe I wasn't blatent enough in that first bit ;-)
> >
> > Salvius
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Congratualtions to all our Questores- believe me you will

work

> > hard;-
> > > , and Gaia Fabia Livia as Cururle Aedile, I am pretty enthused
> > about
> > > our games in the futur
> > > and our Plebian Aedile M.C. Serapio! only the best!
> > >
> > > M. Arminia Maior Fabiana TP
> > >
> > >
> > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius"

<fin37@h...>

> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete Omnes
> > > >
> > > > I notice we're one Quaestor short....cough...cough. I wonder
> who
> > > > would heroically take on that

responsibility...cough...loyalty

> > to
> > > > Nova Roma.....cough...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, congratulations are in order to all those who
> triumphed
> > in
> > > > the elections, especially to my governor and (now) Curule
> > Aedile,
> > > > Gaia Fabia Livia.
> > > >
> > > > valete
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > T. Octavius Salvius

Q. Caecilius Q. Fabio sal. plur. dic.

> > II. The Tribunes have reported to me that they and the Pontifices
> > have, by majority decision, concluded that Lucius Sicinius Drusus
> > violated the terms of his Settlement and Oath.
>
> Except the Pontifices did no such thing, you liar!

I've really only one thing to say here, because I'd rather stay out of this.
It would really be quite inappropriate to call Marinus the liar here, given
that he explicitely stated "The Tribunes have reported to me..." I don't
dare call the Tribunes liars, because quite frankly, I don't think they are,
but I think, Q. Fabi, you may have overlooked a bit of information which
would be rather important here.

Salvete Quirites,

My apologies to you all for the unseemly behavior of the Senator from
California. I suppose I must address his rant.

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/29/04 6:13:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> gawne@... writes:
>
>
>>Lucius
>>Sicinius Drusus from participation in the Senate of Nova Roma until such
>>time as the Tribunes and Pontifices resolve the issues surrounding his
>>Settlement and Oath with them, is hereby rescinded.
>>
>>II. The Tribunes have reported to me that they and the Pontifices have,
>>by majority decision, concluded that Lucius Sicinius Drusus violated the
>>terms of his Settlement and Oath.
>
>
> Except the Pontifices did no such thing, you liar!

I have a report from the Tribunes giving the result of a vote by the
College of Tribunes and the College of Pontifices. I can provide that
report to the people, if there is general interest. It is true that a
regretable number of Pontifices failed to vote, and thus gave up any
right to have a say in the matter.

[personal pleasantries snipped]

> The Boni never once used their position of authority to throw any citizen out

Perhaps you should go back and actually *read* the edictum, Senator. It
quite clearly states that the law gives me no enforcement authority to
compel Drusus to leave. Furthermore it rescinds the earlier edictum
which banned him from Senate proceedings until all due process had been
exhausted. At this point the only thing compelling him to leave Nova
Roma is his own given word.

[more pleasantries deleted]

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus

P. Minius Albucius Ti. Galerio Paulino s.d.

S.V.G.E.R.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy P. Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...> wrote:
(..)

> ".. causa finita !"

Except the honor, Tribunus !

(..)

> And finally I want to convey my sincere congratulations to Lucius
> Arminius Faustus and Marcus Iulius Perusianus on their elections

as Praetors. A very impressive win and I wish them nothing but the

> best for the coming year.
>
> Thanks also goes to those of you who voted for me and especially to
> those who took the time to endorse my candidacy.

Your opponents high reknown did not allow your candidacy, as Di.
Octavina's one, to be endorse by the tribal vote. True, Nova Roma
will lack your clear and independant voice in a such prestigious
office than the Praetor one. Your vigilance, in the last months,
help upholding NR institutions.

> I have totally enjoyed my service as Tribune this year and want to

thank the Plebian citizens for this honor.

I hope that you will honor me with your wise advices and help with
your 2757 experience.

Homage to you, Tribunus !

Optime vale, Galerius.

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. III Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

Salve Consul!

Well this person is well known for "commenting" upon things that he
doesn't seem to know a bit about. We have to endure quite a lot in
the Curia, don't we? Please don't take it seriously.

>Salvete Quirites,
>
>My apologies to you all for the unseemly behavior of the Senator from
>California. I suppose I must address his rant.
>
>QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>> In a message dated 12/29/04 6:13:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>> gawne@... writes:
>>
>>
>>>Lucius
>>>Sicinius Drusus from participation in the Senate of Nova Roma until such
>>>time as the Tribunes and Pontifices resolve the issues surrounding his
>>>Settlement and Oath with them, is hereby rescinded.
>>>
>>>II. The Tribunes have reported to me that they and the Pontifices have,
>>>by majority decision, concluded that Lucius Sicinius Drusus violated the
>>>terms of his Settlement and Oath.
>>
>>
> > Except the Pontifices did no such thing, you liar!
>
>I have a report from the Tribunes giving the result of a vote by the
>College of Tribunes and the College of Pontifices. I can provide that
>report to the people, if there is general interest. It is true that a
>regretable number of Pontifices failed to vote, and thus gave up any
>right to have a say in the matter.
>
>[personal pleasantries snipped]
>
>> The Boni never once used their position of authority to throw any
>>citizen out
>
>Perhaps you should go back and actually *read* the edictum, Senator. It
>quite clearly states that the law gives me no enforcement authority to
>compel Drusus to leave. Furthermore it rescinds the earlier edictum
>which banned him from Senate proceedings until all due process had been
>exhausted. At this point the only thing compelling him to leave Nova
>Roma is his own given word.
>
>[more pleasantries deleted]
>
>Valete Quirites,
>
>-- Marinus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

P. Minius Albucius 22 tribubus omnibusque s.d.

S.V.G.E.R.

I would like to thank sincerely the 22 tribes who have been kind
enough to pay attention to my candidacy.

Thanks also to all individual citizens whose tribes have given their
majority votes to others honorable candidates.

Thanks at last to all of you who have listened to me, supported
ensorsed and trusted me, thinking that I could deserve the honor to
be elected as Tribune of the Plebs.

I will be, from the beginning of next 2758 year, at every Plebeian
and Novaroman service, in order to fulfill my commitments and the
tasks assigned to every Tribune by our Constitution.

My address is : albucius_aoe@....


Optime valete, amici.

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. III Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

Gaius Modius Athanasius Gaio Popillio Laeno salutem dicit

You are most welcome!

Congradulations, and my the Gods bless your Consulship!

Vale;

Modius

In a message dated 12/29/2004 1:31:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ksterne@... writes:

My congratulations to my colleague-elect, Fr. Apulus Caesar, and my
thanks to Gaius Modius Athanasius and Pompeia Minucuia Tiberia Strabo
for being willing to serve, and for running honorable campaigns.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

Salvete omnes!

Although I too ran against no-one, I'm still thrilled a delighted to
be elected to the post of Quaestor. I will do everything in my
power to bring honor to this ancient title for the res publica. My
heartiest congratulations to all of the magistrates elected for 2758
A.U.C. Viva Nova Roma et Vivant Omnes Novae Romae!

On a different note, I offer you the following to round out the
Saturnalia and get all of your feet twitching and fingers snapping.
It helps if you (like I did when composing it) put on the actual
song referenced. The letters are a little more difficult to frame
with your body, but hey...



"SPQR" (To the tune of "YMCA")

Young man, the Etruscans were hell
I said young man, the Italians as well
I said young man, Civil Wars brought us low
but they could not stop our spreading

Young man, we're the cream of the crop
I said young man, mighty Rome's at the top
I said young man, you know nothing can stop
us when we start "pacifying" ---

IO! IO! IO! IO! IO!

It's fun to march for the S P Q R
We rule the world for the S P Q R
From Hispania to Thule --- (we got Aegyptus, too!)
Everyone knows we're the best!

And it's all for the S P Q R
We do it all for the S P Q R
Once we were just a small backwater town
But we put our best brains to the test!



Young man, don that armor so bright
I said young man, help the Gauls see the light
I said young man, let the world know we're right
To send armies marching out there!

Young man, if you'd rather sit back
I said young man, be a political flack
I said young man, get a knife in your back
you can join the Roman Senate

IO! IO! IO! IO! IO!

And it's all for the S P Q R
We rule the world for the S P Q R
From Hispania to Thule --- (we got Aegyptus, too!)
Everyone knows we're the best!

S P Q R
We do it all for the S P Q R
Once we were just a small backwater town
But we put our best brains to the test!

(INSTRUMENTAL)

S P Q R
We rule the world for the S P Q R .......

Valete bene!

Cato

I think Fabius you will find that the people are not as gullible as you think they are. What if you were about to be thrown out of NR for no reason other than you didn't agree with the way things are run here? I expect you would be quite upset as well.

The the mojority of the College never said that they felt Drusus violated his oath. Only one said he did and he was a Tribune running for Consul so his motives were suspect. The College never said anything.

Q. Fabius Maximus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius" <fin37@h...>
wrote:

>
>>
> Actually, since there was no-one else, would I have been elected

had

> I asked for permission in these elections? Wouldn't that be a turn
> up?
>
> vale
>
> Salvius
>

> > Salve T. Octavi Salvi,

This year as Quaestor no. 8 you would have been elected since 8
Quaestors is the number we need. Other years when more than the 8
ran for Quaestor you may or may not have won. Position No. 8 may
have more than one candidate when an election is called in January
after some of our interested citizens reconsider to run.
Having said this, the citizens can still vote for a lone candidate
or unchallenged group of candidates by saying, I abstain. Though we
don't get to actually see those numbers, I think the candidate would
have to really think about his situation and how to gain the
populace's confidence under such circumstances.

> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius"
> <fin37@h...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm, maybe I wasn't blatent enough in that first bit ;-)
> > >
> > > Salvius
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...>

wrote:

> > > >
> > > > Congratualtions to all our Questores- believe me you will
> work
> > > hard;-
> > > > , and Gaia Fabia Livia as Cururle Aedile, I am pretty

enthused

> > > about
> > > > our games in the futur
> > > > and our Plebian Aedile M.C. Serapio! only the best!
> > > >
> > > > M. Arminia Maior Fabiana TP
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "t_octavius_salvius"
> <fin37@h...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salvete Omnes
> > > > >
> > > > > I notice we're one Quaestor short....cough...cough. I

wonder

> > who
> > > > > would heroically take on that
> responsibility...cough...loyalty
> > > to
> > > > > Nova Roma.....cough...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, congratulations are in order to all those who
> > triumphed
> > > in
> > > > > the elections, especially to my governor and (now) Curule
> > > Aedile,
> > > > > Gaia Fabia Livia.
> > > > >
> > > > > valete
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > T. Octavius Salvius

Gaius Modius Athanasius Quinto Servilio Fideno salutem dicit

I understand how you must feel. I ran for tribune against Laenas and
endured 5 run off elections until I decided that 5 was enough. I ran again in the
fall and was elected Tribune.

One thing that makes me Roman is my patience. There will be more elections,
and you and I will be there to stand for office yet again.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 12/29/2004 5:49:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
qservilius@... writes:

Salvete Omnes,

I would like to thank all who voted for me in my run for Tribunus
Plebis this
year. I would like to congratulate all of our new Tribunes. Even though
I did
not win I will be glad to assist any of the new Tribunes in the future
if
possible.

Valete,

Quintus Servilius Fidenas





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caius Minucius Scaevola said:

Perhaps a voluntary "Emergency contact" entry in the Album Civium for
each of us might not be a bad idea. What legal machinery would need to
be set in motion to make that happen, I wonder?

Coming at it from the other end - cives, if this does get implemented,
please remember to notify the person listed. If your relatives are
anything like mine, any "unauthorized" person trying to get information
about you will encounter lots of static. Best to make sure ahead of
time
that "Nova Roma" is a valid passkey phrase to the necessary information
set. :)

Renata Corva replies;

I think this is an excellent idea and very much needed, if not on one's
Album Civium page, then at least on a private list held by any
magistrate for his/her scribae and any senior magistrate for his/her
junior colleagues. To this day, I wonder whether one of the three
rogatores who served with me is still alive. An emergency contact list
would be a great help.

Renata Corva

=====
Chantal
Chantal's LiveJournal
http://aerden.livejournal.com
"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

Salvete Quirites,

I'd like to draw your attention to a quiet man without whom this recent
election would not have been possible: Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus.

In early December, at a time when his university exams were coming thick
and fast, Pius gave generously of his time and talent to help Censor
Quintilianus get the citizen database updated to reflect correct century
point data, realign the tribes and centuries, and generally have
everything ready to go when the Cista opened on the 15th.

Pius was a candidate for Curule Aedile, though he came in 3rd in a two
person race. Perhaps if he'd spent more time campaigning and less time
doing the work that ought to have been done by a missing Censor, it
might have made a difference. In any case, we all owe Pius a debt of
gratitude for his selfless dedication to our Republic.

Please join me in thanking Pius, and please remember him in the future.
He is one of Nova Roma's many helpful and dedicated people who quietly
go about the business of keeping our Republic functioning.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Gaius Modius Athanasius Q. Fabio Maximo salutem dicit

I was not a candidate for consul when I convened the Collegium to vote a
judgement against Drusus. I was a pontifex exercising my authority within the
Collegium, and it was my RIGHT quaranteed by decretum to convene the Collegium.

I convened the Collegium and I voted in favor that Drusus did violate his
oath. Scaurus voted that he believed Drusus did not violate his oath.
Hadrianus voted, but unfortunately he voted after the deadline. The decretum on
voting in the Collegium states that those pontifices who do not vote abrogate
their vote. You did not vote, therefore you gave up your right to vote in this
regard, as did all the other pontifices. The vote was inconclusive, one yes
and one no.

The tribunes also acted as judges in the case of Drusus. Four of the
tribunes agreed that he violated his oath. A fourth tribune agreed that he
violated his oath but felt the punishment was too harsh.

I reviewed the main list archives. I reviewed EVERY post that Drusus made
to the main list, and I believe that some of his comments were rude and
abrasive. Upon review of the main list I found some posts that I had made that
were rude and abrasive as well, but I did not make a solemn oath to be on
exceptional behavior. Additionally, I believe I have apologized to everyone I has
said ill things to; Fuscus and Doris come to mind specifically. Drusus on
the other hand maintained an obstinant demeanor; as if he was somehow entitled
to "just be himself" without being accountable for his behavior -- in light
of his oath.

You claim my motives are suspect. What about your own? Can you honestly
say that calling someone a jackass or a jerk is courteous behavior? Your so
quick to defend Drusus, but Drusus made a solemn oath. He gave his word to an
agreement that prevented a nota against him.

I know that Drusus has unsubscribed from this list, or so I am told, but if
I were you I would advise him to resign from Nova Roma before a suit gets
presented to the Praetors in 2005 to call him on his oath.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Flamen Pomonalis, Pontifex, et Augur

In a message dated 12/29/2004 8:18:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
QFabiusMaxmi@... writes:

I think Fabius you will find that the people are not as gullible as you
think they are. What if you were about to be thrown out of NR for no reason
other than you didn't agree with the way things are run here? I expect you
would be quite upset as well.

The the mojority of the College never said that they felt Drusus violated
his oath. Only one said he did and he was a Tribune running for Consul so his
motives were suspect. The College never said anything.

Q. Fabius Maximus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AVETE OMNES

My warmest congratulations to the elected magistrates!
I think we will have a wonderful year with this team!

I would also like to thank all those who voted for me, even though I
was the only candidate for Plebeian Aedilship! <grinnn>
I hope to see good candidates in the next election for this
office! ;-)

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Propraetor Italiae

Salve Propraetor et Amice!

I couldn't vote for You, but I amvery happy to see You in this office!

>AVETE OMNES
>
>My warmest congratulations to the elected magistrates!
>I think we will have a wonderful year with this team!
>
>I would also like to thank all those who voted for me, even though I
>was the only candidate for Plebeian Aedilship! <grinnn>
>I hope to see good candidates in the next election for this
>office! ;-)
>
>OPTIME VALETE
>Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
>Propraetor Italiae

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Salve, Renata Corva; salvete, Quirites.

On Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 05:45:45PM -0800, Chantal Gaudiano wrote:
> Caius Minucius Scaevola said:
>
> Perhaps a voluntary "Emergency contact" entry in the Album Civium for
> each of us might not be a bad idea. What legal machinery would need to
> be set in motion to make that happen, I wonder?
>
> Coming at it from the other end - cives, if this does get implemented,
> please remember to notify the person listed. If your relatives are
> anything like mine, any "unauthorized" person trying to get information
> about you will encounter lots of static. Best to make sure ahead of
> time
> that "Nova Roma" is a valid passkey phrase to the necessary information
> set. :)
>
> Renata Corva replies;
>
> I think this is an excellent idea and very much needed, if not on one's
> Album Civium page, then at least on a private list held by any
> magistrate for his/her scribae and any senior magistrate for his/her
> junior colleagues.

The reason I suggested the AC page is that all the info would be in the
database and accessible by the responsible magistrates in case of need,
rather than building an entire hierarchy around it. The information
itself could be omitted from the page shown to the public, like the
"email" field on my own page.


Vale et valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Imperium et libertas.
Empire and liberty.
-- Benjamin Disraeli; from Cicero and Tacitus

Salve Q. Lanius Paulinus -
On Dec 29, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
wrote:

> In short, all magistrates should devise some sort of back up system.
> I'll update mine in the next day or so.
>

An excellent point, and not just for Magistrates but for *all* Citizens.
Everyone has a "Please contact in the event of an emergency" person,
listed at work, the DMV and elsewhere, and that person should have a
list of people who need to be informed. Just add Nova Roma to that
list.
It's very disturbing when an active Citizen and friend disappears and
can't be reached.

Vale
- Troianus

AVETE OMNES

I want to thank all the Cives that supported me and gave a strong
impulse to my election as Senior Aedilis Curulis. That was
wonderful. It was a hard job, but I had a bigger success than my
best hopes.
I'm so happy even for all my friends that were elected; I'm not so
happy for Pompeia and Pius, friends with which I've been working so
well this year. Next time will be yours, Amici!

Congratulation even to my co-elected Aedilis, Gaia Fabia Livia.
Now, Fabia, let's keep working!

BENE VALETE
L IUL SULLA
Quaestor
Senior Aedilis Curulis elected
Rector Academiae Italicae

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato"
<mlcinnyc@y...> wrote:

(..)

> Although I too ran against no-one, I'm still thrilled a delighted

to be elected to the post of Quaestor. (..)

Congratulations to you, individually this time (see my previous
post) !

> On a different note, I offer you the following to round out the
> Saturnalia and get all of your feet twitching and fingers

snapping.

> "SPQR" (To the tune of "YMCA")
>
> Young man, the Etruscans were hell
> I said young man, the Italians as well
> I said young man, Civil Wars brought us low
> but they could not stop our spreading
>
> Young man, we're the cream of the crop
> I said young man, mighty Rome's at the top
> I said young man, you know nothing can stop
> us when we start "pacifying" ---
>
> IO! IO! IO! IO! IO!
>
> It's fun to march for the S P Q R
> We rule the world for the S P Q R
> From Hispania to Thule --- (we got Aegyptus, too!)
> Everyone knows we're the best!
>
> And it's all for the S P Q R
> We do it all for the S P Q R
> Once we were just a small backwater town
> But we put our best brains to the test!
>
>
>
> Young man, don that armor so bright
> I said young man, help the Gauls see the light
> I said young man, let the world know we're right
> To send armies marching out there!
>
> Young man, if you'd rather sit back
> I said young man, be a political flack
> I said young man, get a knife in your back
> you can join the Roman Senate
>
> IO! IO! IO! IO! IO!
>
> And it's all for the S P Q R
> We rule the world for the S P Q R
> From Hispania to Thule --- (we got Aegyptus, too!)
> Everyone knows we're the best!
>
> S P Q R
> We do it all for the S P Q R
> Once we were just a small backwater town
> But we put our best brains to the test!
>
> (INSTRUMENTAL)
>
> S P Q R
> We rule the world for the S P Q R .......

At last a great and immortal contribution to the development of our
Res publica (joke). Even if one can find some lyrics a little bit
rough (poor Etruscans, Italians, Gauls, and Senators...), you may
have created a foundating act for our festive culture. And, true,
everyone can try to write down another version (latin one might be
less "dancing", I guess). Last thing : what different clothes for
each member of the dancing group ?

Be thanked and praised for this !

Vale,

Scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. III Kal MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Elected tribunus plebis

Salvete omnes,

I would like to thank for the support I have got from the friends and
voters. I'll promise to do my best as a Tribune. I also congratulate
all the elected magistrates and also those not elected for standing up
and being willing to serve the res publica.

Valete,

Caius Curius Saturninus

Quaestor
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.academiathules.org
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

"> And finally I want to convey my sincere congratulations to Lucius

> Arminius Faustus and Marcus Iulius Perusianus on their elections

as

> Praetors. A very impressive win and I wish them nothing but the
> best for the coming year."

Thanks colleague, besides all divergences we had, the discussions
were mostly healthy for the Republic. I am honoured.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus TRP

Salvete Omnes,
I add my voice thanking Pius for his job and I'm very displeased to
read that he wasn't elected. I hope he would continue to help the
Res Publica, he's a great expert of informatic sciences and he could
help us to improve our web features like the website.

Pius, Amice, you have my full admiration and I invite you to contact
me privatly to talk about your help for the next year.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I'd like to draw your attention to a quiet man without whom this

recent

> election would not have been possible: Titus Octavius Pius

Ahenobarbus.

>
> In early December, at a time when his university exams were coming

thick

> and fast, Pius gave generously of his time and talent to help

Censor

> Quintilianus get the citizen database updated to reflect correct

century

> point data, realign the tribes and centuries, and generally have
> everything ready to go when the Cista opened on the 15th.
>
> Pius was a candidate for Curule Aedile, though he came in 3rd in a

two

> person race. Perhaps if he'd spent more time campaigning and less

time

> doing the work that ought to have been done by a missing Censor,

it

> might have made a difference. In any case, we all owe Pius a debt

of

> gratitude for his selfless dedication to our Republic.
>
> Please join me in thanking Pius, and please remember him in the

future.

> He is one of Nova Roma's many helpful and dedicated people who

quietly

> go about the business of keeping our Republic functioning.
>
> Valete,
>
> -- Marinus

Salve Illustrus Senator Maximus,
you know that Drusus signed a religious and social Oath, you know
that he promised to be polite and civil, you know the procedure was
correct because the judges (Tribunes and Collegium) was regularly
called to give their opinion.
Someone could say that "the silence is a positive answer"... however
the Collegium had the full possibility to give the own personal
judgement following the religious aspect of the Oath signed by
Sicinius Drusus.
Not voting you have chosen to not use your rights and leave the last
judgement to others, the Tribunes and the Praetores. The last
majority of the the Tribunes and Praetores judged Drusus guilty. I
remember you that the Tribunes must to be impartial and please trust
me when I said that we former Tribunes thought very carefully about
the situation of Drusus.
You couldn't protest or critic because you have chosen to be silent.
You had the possibility to defend your friend but you preferred give
no vote.

Sorry, this is the truth and you know it.

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> I think Fabius you will find that the people are not as gullible
as you think they are. What if you were about to be thrown out of
NR for no reason other than you didn't agree with the way things are
run here? I expect you would be quite upset as well.
>
> The the mojority of the College never said that they felt Drusus
violated his oath. Only one said he did and he was a Tribune
running for Consul so his motives were suspect. The College never
said anything.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus

Salve Publius Minius Albucius

My sincere thanks for your kind words and my congratulations on your
election and the election of your new colleagues.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulnus
Tribunus Plebs ( for a few more days) :)




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Publius Minius Albucius"
<albucius_aoe@h...> wrote:

>
> P. Minius Albucius Ti. Galerio Paulino s.d.
>
> S.V.G.E.R.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy P. Gallagher"
> <spqr753@m...> wrote:
> (..)
>
> > ".. causa finita !"
>
> Except the honor, Tribunus !
>
> (..)
>
> > And finally I want to convey my sincere congratulations to

Lucius

> > Arminius Faustus and Marcus Iulius Perusianus on their

elections

> as Praetors. A very impressive win and I wish them nothing but

the

> > best for the coming year.
> >
> > Thanks also goes to those of you who voted for me and especially

to

> > those who took the time to endorse my candidacy.
>
> Your opponents high reknown did not allow your candidacy, as Di.
> Octavina's one, to be endorse by the tribal vote. True, Nova Roma
> will lack your clear and independant voice in a such prestigious
> office than the Praetor one. Your vigilance, in the last months,
> help upholding NR institutions.
>
> > I have totally enjoyed my service as Tribune this year and want

to

> thank the Plebian citizens for this honor.
>
> I hope that you will honor me with your wise advices and help with
> your 2757 experience.
>
> Homage to you, Tribunus !
>
> Optime vale, Galerius.
>
> scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. III Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.
>
> Publius Minius Albucius
> Tribunus Plebis
> http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I have read this thread with increasing dismay


You would.
M. Valeria Messallina

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Those
who

> would trumpet the presence of women in Roman auxiliary units in
> Britain are simply displaying the way in which ideological prejudice
> trumps sound historical methodology.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus

And those who dismiss the possibility of women in the numerii can stop beating their chests and put down their clubs now. Your display of time-honored sexism has been noted.
M. Valeria Messallina


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M IVL PERVSIANVS AED CVR QVIRITIBVS SPD

Many thanks for the electoral result and my best congratulations to all the other winners.

valete



M·IVL·PERVSIANVS
-------------------------
Aedilis Curulis
Vicarius Propraetoris Provinciae Italiae
Magister Academiae Italicae
---------------------------------------------
http://www.insulaumbra.com/aediles/perusianus
http://www.geocities.com/m_iulius
http://italia.novaroma.org
http://italia.novaroma.org/signaromanorum
---------------------------------------------
AEQVAM MEMENTO REBVS IN ARDVIS SERVARE MENTEM

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:

G. Iulius Scaurus Marcae Arminiae Fabianae S.D.

<sniped>

You don't like the widow or whore counterexamples?
Give me one bloody example of an unquestionable female auxiliary
soldier burial in the entirety of Roman history, then. You're the one
making the controversial claim -- the burden of proof is on you.

This is just one more example of how your personal prejudices and
manifest ignorance continue to bring discredit to Nova Roma.

Vale.

Scaurus



Calm down. We are not making "controversial claims." We were merely commenting on an interesting article and diffusing the rebuttal that accompanied it.

However, your "widows and whores" counter examples, scathing replies and insulting condescension isn't exactly a credit to Nova Roma nor to all the women who are proudly Nova Romans.

Maxima Valeria Messallina


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

<sniped>
In an article I read in the SOC it says they are armed camp followers.


LOL
Camp followers were never armed nor were they held in high status nor buried with their horses and weapons. But warrior women were.
M. Valeria Messallina


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your argument, that times were tough, so the Romans hired just any body as an
Auxilia, is 20th century thinking.
There were always qualified fighting men around in the area the body was
found. They sprang from a warrior culture. That they would take a woman over a
man would be highly illogical, based on the culture. They would rather suffer
the shortfall, then do so.

Q. Fabius Maximus

Hardly. Wouldn't the Romans know a good warrior when they saw one, regardless of gender, and employ such warriors if it proved to their advantage? Sure they would. That's not 21st century thinking, that *smart* thinking.

Maxima Valeria Messallina


---------------------------------
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raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...> wrote:

Why is it when the the topic has to deal w/ women in
any capacity { religious positions and now military }
becomes nasty drawn out. Its too late to change it..
=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen

The word "sexism" comes immediately to mind.
Vale
Maxima Valeria Messallina



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raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@...> wrote:

As much as we would like to change certain aspects of
history we cant. Women TODAY feel they can do anything
the men can do forcing this on the past is nil.

I have news for you. Women have always felt that way, from day one. As you have just said, we can't change certain aspects of history, so if you will closely, you will see historical women actually doing anything they pleased, including being warriors, regardless of all the men of their time telling them they couldn't or shouldn't.

Maxima Valeria Messallina


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

Again I will say that with regards to women in history, there have
indeed been a bunch of very tough cookies over the ages. With
respect to the Roman Army itself, I am reluctant to comment further.
I do not like crossing swords with experts on the level of Scaurus
or some of our other academics here since they have a vast wealth of
knowledge in their fields and the situation becomes like a pygmy
facing an elephant. Sometimes there answers are not what I like to
hear but barring a good rebuttle from someone equal on their level,
I give them the final word... something like a Papal Bull.

Now something that I have seen happen far too often in historical
debates over the years is the fact that people do not seem to be
able or willing to put their heads into the minds of people living
in different time periods or ages. Hollywood in its historical epics
is just terrible for this where 20th century philosophies and social
values are forced into the fabric of societies from the 19th century
to ancient times. It would take me too long to explain things here
but here is one example. HG Wells Novel, " War of The Worlds" with
Tom Cruise is to be released soon. The story is going to be related
to modern terrorism, 911 and all. BS - Wells was an early socialist
and member of the Fabian party at the turn of the 20th century. He
was upset over the slaughter of some primative tribes in Tasmania by
colonial troops with superior arms so he wrote this story to teach
Imperialists of the time how they would feel if a superior culture
came from the skies and did the same thing to Victorian England.
Similarily Shakespear believed in the ' Chain of Being' philosophy
where God was on top, peasants at the bottom and his tradgedies
teach what would happen by wrecking the devine plan of God at the
time. MacBeth is analagous to the Earl of Essex's revolt against
Queen Elizabeth. Well I could go on and on... in his book " The
Rising Sun", John Toland surmises that one reason we went to war
with Japan was a lack of understanding of their philosophies and the
oriental mind - in short we see things in black and white - they in
shades of grey. Even today in different parts of the world the
thought process are foreign to us. Some of my co-workers in the
middle east told me they don't drive. Why? If a local rearends you
the fault will be yours. If you weren't in their country, had stayed
at the oil rig and minded your business, this accident would not
have happened!

Anyway I was pondering this idea the other day and found a pretty
good site which covers ideas and social thoughts over the ages. In
short, lets get into the minds of our ancestors and judge them by
the standards of their times; not ours. Enjoy! Covers the " Chain Of
Being" to social Darwinism.

Dictionary Of The History Of Ideas

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/DicHist/alpha/S-T.html



Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

>
> I have news for you. Women have always felt that way, from day

one. As you have just said, we can't change certain aspects of
history, so if you will closely, you will see historical women
actually doing anything they pleased, including being warriors,
regardless of all the men of their time telling them they couldn't
or shouldn't.

>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Lani Pauline;
the point was a friendly discussion of an interesting article and
Scaurus and Maximus could have particated in a friendly way as well,
instead of being insulting. That is a bullying tactic. Sorry they are
not the Pope of Nova Roma!

Yes different cultures have different views, but I agree with Maxima
Valeria & can tell you women everywhere from Newfoundland to
Afghanistan don't want to spend all day immured in their home
weaving;-)

As you pointed out in your engaging post there are examples of women
fighters from all cultures; I can even add famous Mu Lan of China,
and Shizuka and other Samurai daughters from Japan, and Ghazia of
India.
bene vale
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ

Salve Marca Arminia Maior,

Thank you for your response on this. Yes, I kept this point in mind.
Sadly we were having this discussion on another non- NR lists and it
also started getting to the point where the discussion became
personal as well. I am just trying to introduce another path of
thinking in order to to keep dialogue on a level to where it doesn't
degenerate.

I think my point regarding Scaurus or QFM is valid. That comes under
appeal to the proper authority. Sure, some may regard them as
abrasive, rude or awful but that is separate from their expertise in
their fields. It is correct logical form for me to site the Pope or
the doctorines of the RC Church, Consul Marinus on Sat technology,
me on the affairs of oil exploration or you on perhaps family law in
NY state. On the other hand we must all refrain from throwing up
words to inflame conversations like racist, fascist, sexist,
chauvinist, stupid, ignorant etc. From what I remember in "
Fundementals Of Logic" such language falls into the fallacies of ad
hominum and emotional appeal and at that point the arguments are
lost... at least in a forma; debating senario.

All in all I think we would have much greater conversations keeping
this in mind. It is certainly very easy for anyone of us to walk
into these fallacies and I find it real mental gymnatics trying to
avoid this.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> Salve Lani Pauline;
> the point was a friendly discussion of an interesting article
and
> Scaurus and Maximus could have particated in a friendly way as
well,
> instead of being insulting. That is a bullying tactic. Sorry they
are
> not the Pope of Nova Roma!
>
> Yes different cultures have different views, but I agree with
Maxima
> Valeria & can tell you women everywhere from Newfoundland to
> Afghanistan don't want to spend all day immured in their home
> weaving;-)
>
> As you pointed out in your engaging post there are examples of
women
> fighters from all cultures; I can even add famous Mu Lan of China,
> and Shizuka and other Samurai daughters from Japan, and Ghazia of
> India.
> bene vale
> Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> caput Officina Iuriis
> et Investigatio CFQ

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima <violetphearsen@y...> wrote:

> As much as we would like to change certain aspects of
> history we cant. Women TODAY feel they can do anything
> the men can do forcing this on the past is nil.
>
> I have news for you. Women have always felt that way, from day one.

As you have just said, we can't change certain aspects of history, so
if you will closely, you will see historical women actually doing
anything they pleased, including being warriors, regardless of all
the men of their time telling them they couldn't or shouldn't.

>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina

*bangs head delicately against the wall* Please, please please do not
use generalisations, I already jumped all over Marcus Flavius Fides
for doing so! Some women living today today may feel that anything is
possible (I do after I've had my coffee), some women may feel the
limitations of tradition, but I can't presume to speak for them.

I thank Quintus Lanius Paulinus for the thoughtful discussion of the
challenges of understanding other cultures, and they are challenges
indeed.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Factio Praesina
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/

P. Minius Albucius omnibus s.d.

S.V.G.E.R.

Let me try to bring a humble and unpassionnate contribution to the
fierce fight on "women warriors".

First I will consider that :
1/ women may be tough warriors
2/ the fact that women fought and/or belonged to military units is
neither good or bad
3/ archeologists, like every scientist, must prove their hypothesis.

Second, you will find beneath my humbly comments on the Times
article, being assumed that it is the sole piece of information at
our disposal in our "file".


<THE remains of two Amazon warriorsÂ…

Let us care to extrapolations : there are only 2 bodies

<Â…serving with the Roman army in Britain have been discovered in a
cemetery that has astonished <archaeologists.

Let us seeÂ…

<Women soldiers were previously unknown in the Roman army in Britain
<and the find at Brougham in Cumbria will force a reappraisal of
<their role in 3rd-century society.
<The women are thought to have come from the Danube region of
<Eastern Europe, which was where the Ancient Greeks said the
<fearsome Amazon warriors could be found.
<Yes, though the land controlled by the Amazons did not exactly fit
<to this region. But this piece of sentence set a doubtful link
<between a 250 AD grave and a fact far older (1000-1500 BC) :
<between them nearly 2,000 years !

<The women, believed to have died some time between AD220 and 300,
<were burnt on pyres upon <which were placed their horses and
<military equipment. (..)

<The soldiers are believed to have been part of the numerii, a Roman
<irregular unit, which would <have been attached to a legion serving
<in Britain.

Talking about soldiers is inferring that the archeologists are sure
that the 2 women belong to a military unit. But this is precisely
what that have to prove (why not ?). The end of the article does not
give any information about that.
(Â…)

<"It seems highly probable that we have a unit raised in the
<Danubian lands and transferred to Britain," she says in British
<Archaeology.

Not surprising at this period : a military unit included in a legion
would move frequently across western Europe.

<"Though the numerii are generally referred to as irregular units,
<they are not thought of as having women among their ranks.
<However, the unit came from the area where the Ancient Greeks
<placed <the origin of women warriors called Amazons. Could the
<numerii be even more irregular than anyone has ever dreamt?"

"Dream" is the exact word, for the moment.

<The cemetery at Brougham served a fort and the civilian settlement
<of Brocavum in the 3rd century and analysis of the remains of more
<than 180 people showed that everybody's ashes were buried there.
(..)

So there were military and civilian corpses there.

Conclusion : nothing is sure, except that the article tries to draw
us on the Amazons fantastic and phantasms world. Two corpses are not
a full unit. The women could have been mercenaries, soldiers, or
would for example have be able, as rich or noble women, to ask for a
burial in men's array. We cannot put away any of these hypothesis.

Valete,

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. III Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Elected Tribune of the Plebs
Scr. Propr. Galliae

Caius Minucius Scaevola Quintus Lanius Paulinus SPD.

On Thu, Dec 30, 2004 at 04:06:40PM -0000, Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Again I will say that with regards to women in history, there have
> indeed been a bunch of very tough cookies over the ages. With
> respect to the Roman Army itself, I am reluctant to comment further.
> I do not like crossing swords with experts on the level of Scaurus
> or some of our other academics here since they have a vast wealth of
> knowledge in their fields and the situation becomes like a pygmy
> facing an elephant.

[laugh] That may not be a very apt parallel; Pygmies have been
slaughtering elephants since time immemorial. I must say that you
launched a pretty good spear of knowledge, although - in stark contrast
to Pygmy (and even local) usage - you didn't coat the tip with poison...


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
Everything changes, nothing perishes.
-- Ovid, "Metamorphoses"

Salvete Romani! The Kalendae of Ianuarius will soon be
upon us, and tomorrow is the time to prepare the
making of the "Ianual" offering to Ianus Consivius! It
is simply a little spelt wheat cake with a drop or two
of honey placed on it before buring it upon the fire
(incense charcoal) at the Lararium on the morning of
the Kalendae. I usually make mine very thin and about
the size of a nickle. Sprinkle a little salt from the
Salinum upon it and add the honey. Before placing it
upon the charcoal put a Bay leaf first on the charcoal
and then the spelt cake with the salt and honey. Prior
of course to all of this recite the offering prayer to
Ianus Consivius. The Ianual is a offering to Ianus to
ensure that the new year be a sweet and happy one! May
Ianus Consivius who opens the new year grant us all a
happy and propitious one! SALVE IANE CONSIVIE! Valete!
GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI



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Salve amice,

LOL, good point! Well I love analogies but sometimes they can fall
flat ont their face.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:

> Caius Minucius Scaevola Quintus Lanius Paulinus SPD.
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2004 at 04:06:40PM -0000, Quintus Lanius Paulinus

(Michael Kelly) wrote:

> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Again I will say that with regards to women in history, there

have

> > indeed been a bunch of very tough cookies over the ages. With
> > respect to the Roman Army itself, I am reluctant to comment

further.

> > I do not like crossing swords with experts on the level of

Scaurus

> > or some of our other academics here since they have a vast

wealth of

> > knowledge in their fields and the situation becomes like a pygmy
> > facing an elephant.
>
> [laugh] That may not be a very apt parallel; Pygmies have been
> slaughtering elephants since time immemorial. I must say that you
> launched a pretty good spear of knowledge, although - in stark

contrast

> to Pygmy (and even local) usage - you didn't coat the tip with

poison...

>
>
> Vale,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

=-

> Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
> Everything changes, nothing perishes.
> -- Ovid, "Metamorphoses"

Salvete Omnes,

Not only have my fellow Nova Roman Athanasious and I seen the wisdom
of laying down whatever differing opinions we may once have
expressed, but now serve *together* as co-owners of the group
aquilahelica, devoted to honoring and conserving the Roman Imperial
Eagle. Athanasious has stepped forth to offer to help sponsor the one
Imperial Eagle in permanent care at the Green Balkans wildlife
rehabilitation center, should circumstances prove necessary.

Thus *together*, we move forward to serve our Roman heritage by
helping the almost extinct Imperial Eagles to survive, a worthy task
indeed.

*All* Nova Romans are invited to join us at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aquilaheliaca/?yguid=164345709

The quite nearly extinct Imperial Eagles, as well as other sacred
raptors which so insprired the ancients, need help to survive --as
individual birds and as species -- and we can unite *above* politcs
in this worthy cause.

--Sabina Equitia Doris

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
(snippage)
Additionally, I believe I have apologized to everyone I has
> said ill things to; Fuscus and Doris come to mind specifically.
>(snippage)
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
> Flamen Pomonalis, Pontifex, et Augur

In a message dated 12/30/04 6:07:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
violetphearsen@... writes:

And those who dismiss the possibility of women in the numerii can stop
beating their chests and put down their clubs now. Your display of time-honored
sexism has been noted.



That is awfully condescending isn't it? The burden of proof is not on the
historian. It's on those challenging the SQ. If a diploma is found that says a
female nomen receives her honorable discharge
from the Auxilia for 25 years of service, if a grave stelle is discovered of
a woman
with her military career outlined, if we find any these things then I'd be
willing to change my mind.
But since the preponderance of the evidence is against this, we have to go
with Dr. Head's assumption:
they were camp followers, buried with weapons in accordance with their
Germanic or British culture.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Modius Athanasius S.P.D.

I cannot speak highly enough of the work that Equitia Doris has been doing
with the Eagle Project. Very noble, and positive work for the betterment of
our collective Roman cultural heritage.

I encourage anyone interested in conservation efforts to join this list.

Valete;

Modius

In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:19:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
doris-butler@... writes:

Salvete Omnes,

Not only have my fellow Nova Roman Athanasious and I seen the wisdom
of laying down whatever differing opinions we may once have
expressed, but now serve *together* as co-owners of the group
aquilahelica, devoted to honoring and conserving the Roman Imperial
Eagle. Athanasious has stepped forth to offer to help sponsor the one
Imperial Eagle in permanent care at the Green Balkans wildlife
rehabilitation center, should circumstances prove necessary.

Thus *together*, we move forward to serve our Roman heritage by
helping the almost extinct Imperial Eagles to survive, a worthy task
indeed.

*All* Nova Romans are invited to join us at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aquilaheliaca/?yguid=164345709

The quite nearly extinct Imperial Eagles, as well as other sacred
raptors which so insprired the ancients, need help to survive --as
individual birds and as species -- and we can unite *above* politcs
in this worthy cause.

--Sabina Equitia Doris






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Maior,
Well firstly this thread was not one I have been paying particular attention to. Rather I've been checking in randomly to see what is being said. Yes indeed this started off as a friendly discussion. But its baby steps into degeneration happened before Scaurus or Maximus even entered. Going through the archives to review the posts after you initially posted the information on the female who was buried, one can see the negativity already was injected after QLP posted an article with a rebuttal he found, when in post #31600 it was said,

"All I have to say to this misguided fellow is "Don't look now, sir, but your sexism is showing."

Is the introduction of sexism really necessary? If one really wants a friendly interaction then they can do without negative connotations. However, it starts to go down when Vestinia Caprenia joins in. Not because of what she said but because of the reaction. Vestinia pointed out in post #31652,

"The "Gladiatrix" is still being researched. We cannot make
assumptions -- either way! -- the she was or was not a gladiatrix."

She is right in that you should not make assumptions.

"So, let's not assume that people are "closeminded" or "sexist"
because they doubt the conclusions someone has leapt to before the
research is completed -- especially with items from a dig completed
decades ago and where we cannot investigate items in context."


Yet she remains objective.

"The women's remains found in the dig may be auxilary soldiers. They
may not...Let's wait for the full research to be done before we get too excited either way. A Misrepresentation of the Truth, no matter how desired or deserved, does no good to any of us."

She was immediately pounced upon. I can only gather because she did not wholeheartedly jump to a final conclusion. Firstly she was jumped upon as combining to different issues, the subject of this thread and the gladiatrix you brought up (post #31602). To this she replied in post #31666

"The issue was conflated long before I got to it. It was pitched as
yet another bit of evidence, all of which add up to the conclusion we most desire to see."

Yet,

"one does not have to "assume" someone is sexist when they prove that fact for you by every word that comes out of their mouths." (post #31658)

I'm still trying to figure out how one arrive at the conclusion the rebuttal is "sexist". The author clearly states:

"It is not unheard of that women could have taken part in fighting
among certain people fighting alongside the Romans, but I am a bit
surprised that this bit would not be mentioned by more Roman writers, such as Vegetius, who would have considered this an original curiosity worth a sentence."

The author accepts that there it is established there were female combatants. Just because he does not jump to the conclusion of what this find might be hardly makes him sexist. Vestinia was also jumped upon for saying,

"And my point was that *right now* it is fashionable to see the graves that way. Just as it was fashionable, a decade or more ago, to see them as symbolic or shamanistic."

and received the defensive response

"Archaeologists do not arrive at their conclusions to be fashionable. I am studying archeology and know, firsthand, how dedicated these people are to determining the truth from what they find."

No reference was made to arachaeologists. rather defensive aren't we? Jumping to a conclusion without merit (not you maior).

But what I find funny is the hypocriosy of all this. After Vestinia stated,

"The issue was conflated long before I got to it. It was pitched as
yet another bit of evidence, all of which add up to the conclusion we most desire to see."

Both yourself and Maxima stated loud and clear on the issue of the gladiatrix,

"The gladiatrix was given as one example, but others could have just as easily been used." (Maxima)

"I brought up the gladiatrix in rebuttal to point out that these women existed, as proven by archeological evidence but that no literature exists about them."

I find this to be funny considering you both admit it was introduced as support of female combatants after you jumped on Vestinia about it. However with this discussion started on 12/22 by you we jump to 12/27 when Maximus first posted on this thread. In fact he was rather civil. Not a single word of hostility. Hostility doesn't begin till you post (#31713) going after scaurus you said,

"I had the pleasure of conversing with the late great & much beloved Classical scholar Professor Finlay of Harvard; unlike yourself he was a man of infinite wisdom and kindness to neophytes."

Unlike Scaurus you were clearly taking a pot shot. Neither he nor maximus were rude, disrespectful, or "insulting" at this point. Despite this Maximus still remained objective.

"but until collaborating evidence (tombstone, diploma, pay tokens) turn up don't spread false info."

You seemed to have reached your conclusion already. But just because someone jump on the bandwagon and proclaiming a conclusion are not sexist, chauvinist or any other type of connotation one can dig up as is the case here from post # 31809

"those who dismiss the possibility of women in the numerii can stop beating their chests and put down their clubs now. Your display of time-honored sexism has been noted."

It seems to me there are only two individuals who have contributed negativity to this subject and their names are not Scaurus and Maximus.

Vale, Cornelianus


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Salvete omnes

First of all, congratulations to all the elected magistrates and the candidates not chosen. Every all have proved a willingness that is essential for this kind of organization. Despite the fact of not being elected, many things can be done without a title on the signature. Do it.

For the new year which is coming, I hope we all will head together to the best direction for Nova Roma. I humbly suggest, as a privatus, that our Consules plan a future tied to the Cultural and Official institutions of every country part of the Provinces of Nova Roma. We'll do much more with their support than alone with our thin taxes. I suggest to a planning on the real activities that increase them in order to leave much more the lists of internet and for a stronger fundation of our civitas, based on the face-to-face relationship. I know that many citizens are the only ones actives on their respective provinces, but that can be fixed with will and work. The 2 w's that will do much more than simple "mouth music". I hope you all will undertand that little joke. :-)

I urge also the citizens to make of this list a healthier place in the same direction it seems it have been taken. No insults, no harmful words, no arrogant or superiority attitudes... (Well, hardly ever I see them, just on a few chronicle citizens who seems to have lost the train a lot of time and, fist on the air, threatts all from the platform alone in the windy and cold place of rage) The Praetors will do the job, but we the citizens are the subjects who must do the best for making of our Forums places for discussion, scholar or amateur, deep or light, but always on respect.

My last wish is concerning to the status of the Roman Culture in the real world. We, who declare to love our Roman Heritage, know little or nothing of the language of our ancestors. Latin should be the preferent language for our communication in the forecoming years. Symposia should be the expression of our latinitas. Hospitalitas. All the roman virtues, made real. And of course, allways we can go together with those who wish the same. Splitted in parts we are thorns, together we make the whole.

I wish the best for our citizens and magistrates and a good year 2758!!


vale bene in pace deorum

L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS
PROPRAETOR·HISPANIAE

PS: I can't resist the temptation; you all can find the very first and truly real roman calendar in http://www.armillum.com/calendarios.html Enjoy it!!! :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Servius Equitius Mercurius Troianus <hermeticagnosis@...> wrote:

In other words: Ladies, don't think this is possible proof of Lady
Legionairies because it isn't. IF - big if - they prove to be
Auxilliaries then it is still clearly a local aberration, perhaps a
totally isolated incident, and *not* the norm.

Salve

What we were arguing is that they were women warriors. What their true purpose in being there may never be known, but the inane argument that they can't possibly be warriors because they were women is what we objected to.

Vale

Maxima Valeria Messallina


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was the principal author of the now-defunct nota against Senator
Lucius Sicinius Drusus, and the first part of the settlement agreement
(the list of conditions each side agreed to, not the oath part).
Permanent banishment was never my intent; even if the original nota
had remained in place, it probably wouldn't have lasted more than a
few months.

He has been absent from the main list for several months now, and
absent from the Senate for the better part of a year.

Drusus is opinionated and abrasive, but he has proven himself
intelligent and educated, and there is much that he can contribute.

I believe he should be reinstated, fully. I would vote against any
efforts to remove his citizenship or Senatorial status.

Let us start this new year in a spirit of forgiveness and concord.

M. Octavius Germanicus, Consular.

In a message dated 12/30/04 11:42:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
violetphearsen@... writes:

What we were arguing is that they were women warriors. What their true
purpose in being there may never be known, but the inane argument that they can't
possibly be warriors because they were women is what we objected to.



Ummm actually no. That wasn't what was being argued. But if that's all you
want, yes there were female warriors in Sarmation, Skythian, Celtic and
Germanic cultures and all had contact with Rome.

That the grave sites were warriors in Roman service was what was being
argued.
Note the heading that reinforced the statement .

It wasn't "Women found buried with weapons near local Roman fort."

It was "Woman warriors in the British Legions"

Like I said. It was that heading that attracted my attention. The other
heading wouldn't have, since the Guardroom had an article about it months ago.

And Minucius is correct. Pygmies can bring down an elephant with cane
spears. Just like their ancestors could bring down Wolly Mammoths with fire
hardened sticks.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julilla Sempronia Magna <curatrix@...> wrote:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Maxima <violetphearsen@y...> wrote:

> As much as we would like to change certain aspects of
> history we cant. Women TODAY feel they can do anything
> the men can do forcing this on the past is nil.
>
> I have news for you. Women have always felt that way, from day one.
As you have just said, we can't change certain aspects of history, so
if you will closely, you will see historical women actually doing
anything they pleased, including being warriors, regardless of all
the men of their time telling them they couldn't or shouldn't.
>
> Maxima Valeria Messallina

*bangs head delicately against the wall* Please, please please do not
use generalisations, I already jumped all over Marcus Flavius Fides
for doing so! Some women living today today may feel that anything is
possible (I do after I've had my coffee), some women may feel the
limitations of tradition, but I can't presume to speak for them.

Ouch! Please, don't bang anything over this!

I did not say all women want to be warriors, but I do believe all women, in any given age as well as those of today, would like to do anything they please, same as men do. It really has nothing to do with being a woman or being a man. All people would like to do as they please. Sadly, not all can, but the idea that women of the past did not want to be free to live their lives as they pleased is ridiculous. This isn't something that just came into being with the last century. Women have always wanted to do as they pleased and not be told by any man that they can't simply because it's not the preferance of most women. Some women may feel "the limitations of tradition," but others don't. I agree. What I am trying to say is that regardless of what path a woman chooses, she wants the freedom to choose and not be limited because it's not what most women would like to do. And women have always wanted that freedom, right through the ages, from day one.

Vale

Maxima Valeria Messallina



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 12/30/04 6:44:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
violetphearsen@... writes:

Camp followers were never armed nor were they held in high status nor buried
with their horses and weapons. But warrior women were.



Really. And you are an expert on camp followers? One possibility is that
maybe they were from a British noble house. I'd be more likely to take Dr.
Head's comments as factual.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus" <julius_cornelianus@...> wrote:

It seems to me there are only two individuals who have contributed negativity to this subject and their names are not Scaurus and Maximus.

Vale, Cornelianus


Really?
You must have been reading some other posts than the ones I read.
M. Valeria Messallina

__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

I have looked into this issue with Druses off the ML and got some
very courteous and helpful answers from the powers that be regarding
the history of the situation. People far better versed in the NR
laws than me have presented their arguments, thoughts, explanations
and recommendations. I am not here to question them on the concepts
of oaths, broken promises and consequences.

What disturbs me though that is in the past other citizens have been
very outspoken in every negative way possible. A few even totally
ripped the fabric of the pax deorum in my opinion, hurting NR but
freedom of speech was the issue and any idea to quash those people's
citizenship was thwarted or outright dismissed. I must say at this
point Marcus Octavius Germanicus is showing consistency in his logic
because I remember similar arguments from him on the other
situations. Breaking an oath you only end up hanging yourself and
can look shameful in the eyes of your peers. That can be punishment
enough, losing credibility and trust. I hope all this will be
carefully considered when making the final decisions on Druses.
Banishment and loss of citizenship is not fair considering the
gravity of his cardinal sin in comparison to those of others.

Your consideration of my thoughts is appreciated.


Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" <hucke@c...> wrote:
>
> I was the principal author of the now-defunct nota against Senator
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus, and the first part of the settlement
agreement
> (the list of conditions each side agreed to, not the oath part).
> Permanent banishment was never my intent; even if the original nota
> had remained in place, it probably wouldn't have lasted more than a
> few months.
>
> He has been absent from the main list for several months now, and
> absent from the Senate for the better part of a year.
>
> Drusus is opinionated and abrasive, but he has proven himself
> intelligent and educated, and there is much that he can contribute.
>
> I believe he should be reinstated, fully. I would vote against any
> efforts to remove his citizenship or Senatorial status.
>
> Let us start this new year in a spirit of forgiveness and concord.
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus, Consular.

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:


In a message dated 12/30/04 11:42:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
violetphearsen@... writes:

What we were arguing is that they were women warriors. What their true
purpose in being there may never be known, but the inane argument that they can't
possibly be warriors because they were women is what we objected to.



Ummm actually no. That wasn't what was being argued. But if that's all you
want, yes there were female warriors in Sarmation, Skythian, Celtic and
Germanic cultures and all had contact with Rome.

That the grave sites were warriors in Roman service was what was being
argued.
Note the heading that reinforced the statement .

It wasn't "Women found buried with weapons near local Roman fort."

It was "Woman warriors in the British Legions"

Like I said. It was that heading that attracted my attention. The other
heading wouldn't have, since the Guardroom had an article about it months ago.

And Minucius is correct. Pygmies can bring down an elephant with cane
spears. Just like their ancestors could bring down Wolly Mammoths with fire
hardened sticks.

Q. Fabius Maximus


Well, that was what I was arguing about, but you are right that the whole discussion has gone far afield from that.

M.Valeria Messallina



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:


In a message dated 12/30/04 6:44:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
violetphearsen@... writes:

Camp followers were never armed nor were they held in high status nor buried
with their horses and weapons. But warrior women were.



Really. And you are an expert on camp followers? One possibility is that
maybe they were from a British noble house. I'd be more likely to take Dr.
Head's comments as factual.

Q. Fabius Maximus


Are you? Is Dr. Head the repository of all knowledge? In my studies in archaeology and in conversing with other archeologists I know, we have never heard of armed camp followers. But, hey, anything is possible, that is true. Just as it is possible they were warriors hired by the Romans for some task. If only we could find some written record on the subject, tucked away in some remote corner of the world just waiting to be discovered, like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Alas......

M.Valeria Messallina


__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh really Maxima? I quoted the words of yourself, maior, Vestinia Caprenia as well as Maximus. I also read the first post by Scaurus on the matter where Maior I believe accuses him of being insulting. Yet she turned around and stated

"I had the pleasure of conversing with the late great & much beloved Classical scholar Professor Finlay of Harvard; unlike yourself he was a man of infinite wisdom and kindness to neophytes."

I can only take this as a pathetic attempt at insulting Scaurus. Where was Maximus insulting? Just because one does not wholeheartedly jump to the conclusion that the subject in question was part of a Roman legion in any capacity does not make them sexist or ignorant. You laid the ground work for negativity by introducing negativity (hint hint "sexism"). But since apparently you have not gone through the archives of this thread and read what has been said here are fine examples of your own words:

"those who dismiss the possibility of women in the numerii can stop beating their chests and put down their clubs now. Your display of time-honored sexism has been noted."

"The gladiatrix was given as one example, but others could have just as easily been used."

--this qoute comes after you jumped on Vestinia for saying the issue of the buried female and the gladiatrix were already "conflated" before she entered the discussion. She also pointed out that was given as an example to advance your argument/PoV. Moving on we also have

"All I have to say to this misguided fellow is "Don't look now, sir, but your sexism is showing."

"one does not have to "assume" someone is sexist when they prove that fact for you by every word that comes out of their mouths."

--Again not accepting your stance on this does not make one sexist. But since you said the author of the rebuttal was sexist here are his words (please take not of bold words)

"It is not unheard of that women could have taken part in fighting among certain people fighting alongside the Romans, but I am a bit surprised that this bit would not be mentioned by more Roman writers, such as Vegetius, who would have considered this an original curiosity worth a sentence."

Please review the post by QFM posted on December 27 to the subject. He was perfectly civil. I can see how one might react a bit hasty to these words by Maximus:

"but until collaborating evidence (tombstone, diploma, pay tokens) turn up don't spread false info."

Focusing on the false info aspect of it. However the point is you and maior already drew your opinions on this and came to a conclusion. You jumped on those who did not readily accept it. You freely threw sexism around. What I got from QFM's words were that he was not readily just going to jump to a conclusion and accept wholeheartedly what the subject is or was. If you just jump to the conclusion that she was part of a legion and it is proved otherwise you look the fool in the end. That is also sloppy research. But then again considering who posted about Maximus and Scaurus being insulting, etc. it need not be given much thought or the charge any serious consideration since I went through the archives of this subject and saw for myself what was said and found the slide to negativity and hostility began not Maximus or Scaurus but another duo.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh give it a rest Corneliane;
can't you find a nice topic about Rome to discuss?

Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ

This is an interesting topic if you'd refrain from acting with hostility everytime you post. Why don't you give it a rest. I was pointing out a fact in response to what you wrote. For sometime you've been on a selective targeting campaign against select individuals. However, now you are wrong. I pointed that out showing the words of you and Maxima as bringing in the negativity and hostility to this subject. You simply can't stand the fact that people won't just jump to the conclusion you reached before this subject had a chance to be discussed. Get over it. Face it you cannot conclusively say what this women was or what she did. Unless you have concrete proof (ON THIS SPECIFIC CASE) you cannot just assume your conclusion to be true and without error. You perhaps should give it a rest in certain regards.

Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
Oh give it a rest Corneliane;
can't you find a nice topic about Rome to discuss?

Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus" <I pointed that out showing the
words of you and Maxima

Salve Gnaee Iuli;
you've brought up an excellent topic- nomenclature! Historically one
does not refer to a fellow civis by his or her praenomen, this occurs
only in an intimate relationship.
So if you wish to refer to Maxima Valeria Messallina you may
address her as 'Messallina' 'Valeria Messallina'or 'Maxima Valeria'
never "Maxima"!
Thank my good friend A. Apollonius Cordus for this useful
information
bene vale
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ


Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:

> Oh give it a rest Corneliane;
> can't you find a nice topic about Rome to discuss?
>
> Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> caput Officina Iuriis
> et Investigatio CFQ
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

The last time I heard from him was just before I left Gens Cornelia and
founded
Gens Servilia. He had moved to Arizona for a Teaching job and was
settling in there. I tried to let him know I had been successful in
founding my own Gens
but, got no answer in return. Now I've got a question? Where is Gens
Cornelia?
In the past(when I was in it at least) the Gens was one the most active
in
Nova Roma. Where did they go?

Vale,

Quintus Servilius Fidenas(formerly Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus)

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

The military anarchy of the third century spawned considerably
reflection on the part of Roman military intellectuals. The failure
of the vaunted Roman army protect the empire against barbarian
incursion and to abet political stability produced anguished analysis
we can see in a variety of sources. Given the general diminishment of
women's rights in the dominate and the tendency of Roman writers to
ascribe a wide variety of social and political ills to what thye
regarded as inappropriate behaviour by women, if there were a policy
of recruiting women to serve in auxiliary units, it would astounding
that notice of it escaped their notice and condemnation. When this is
coupled with the absence of any legal, epigraphic, prosopographic,
iconographic, numismatic, or unambiguous archaeological evidence for
the presence of women in auxiliary units, it becomes very difficult to
give credence to a vague speculation based on ambiguous evidence from
two burials in a single cemetary.

There is no more evidence that women served as Roman auxiliaries than
that Native Americans did so, but I wonder whether those who are
inclined to attribute disbelief in this fanciful speculation to
"sexism" would be equally inclined to cry "racism" if I were to
announce disbelief in a claim that the Sioux served as Roman light
cavalry.

Even if I were to be completely wrong and the two Cumbrian burials are
of women who served in an auxiliary unit, what would it mean? It
would mean that an oddity occurred in a period of significant
disorder. It would be evidence of nothing but a momentary breakdown
of a military system under extreme pressure from events. It would
tell us nothing about the centrality tendency of Roman military
organisation nor about the status of women in Roman society generally.
It would be a blip on the radar of history, signalling nothing more
than a solitary, outlier occurrence, which might be useful to
illuminate the peculiar circumstances of a particular unit in a
particular place at a particular time, but it would convey nothing of
any more general significance. I don't think the evidence presented
thus far even hints that this could be the case, but if it were, this
is all the significance a reasonable analyst would attach to it. On
the other hand, it illuminates the way the ideological-driven
manipulate history. For those who are determined to see these two
burials as revolutionary evidence requiring a complete revision of our
understanding of women in the military of the late empire such an
outlier case carries greater weight than the entire mass of contrary
evidence combined. This has pernicious consequences of our
reconstruction in NR because such people see any isolated, outlier
event which conforms to their ideological prejudices as licensing
moderns to treat such outliers as if they were the central tendency of
Roman society and culture. Their attitude is: it happened once
somewhere in the Roman period, so it is perfectly acceptable to act as
if it can be generalised to all things Roman and must be incorporated
in our reconstruction. They decontextualise historical events so that
those events can be used as an imprimatur for imposing whatever modern
prejudice the ideologues prefer. If they should be successful, it
condemns our reconstruction to being nothing more than a set of
disjointed, decontextualised prooftexts for reconstructing a Rome
which never existed except as a modern fantasy. It is a fundamental
misuse of history.

I am not surprised that these ideologues howl when sound historical
methodology skewers their hopes by exposing what would otherwise be
only a decontextualised outlier as outright falsehood.

Valete.

Scaurus

Salvete Quirites;
this is my post 31692# Both Messallina and myself and others were
discussing the existance of women warriors, possibly Numerii. I
really do not understand the point of this brouhaha.
bene valete
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:

Salve Maxime;
I said there was some literature but scarcely a great deal,
especially as we are discussing Rome, as for female Numerii, well
archeology is telling the tale.
M. Arminia Maior Fabiana

> However they were not used in legiones or the auxilia.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
>
>
>

Publius Minius Albucius L. Didio Gemino Sceptio omnibusque s.d.

S.V.G.E.R.


L·DIDIVS·GEMINVS·SCEPTIVS <sceptia@y...> wrote:

> For the new year which is coming, I hope we all will head together

to the best direction for Nova Roma. I humbly suggest, as a
privatus, that our Consules plan a future tied to the Cultural and
Official institutions of every country part of the Provinces of Nova
Roma. (..)
I suggest to a planning on the real activities that increase them in
order to leave much more the lists of internet and for a stronger
fundation of our civitas, based on the face-to-face relationship.
(..)

>
> I urge also the citizens to make of this list a healthier place in

the same direction it seems it have been taken.

>
> My last wish is concerning to the status of the Roman Culture in

the real world. We, who declare to love our Roman Heritage, know
little or nothing of the language of our ancestors. Latin should be
the preferent language for our communication in the forecoming
years.


Ita ! Consentio omnibus. Geminum adjuvo. [Yes ! I agree to all the
proposals. I support Geminus.]

And I am ready to work on these trails with my colleagues tribunes,
the other institutions, and all the citizens of Nova Roma.

scr. Cadomago, Gallia, a.d. III Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Allectus Tribunus Plebis
Scr. Propr. Galliae

Villa Ivlilla StationeryJulilla Sempronia Magna omnibus SPD

It is with no small amount of joy that I announce a new citizen into our
ancient Plebeian gens: Salvia Sempronia Graccha, and thus we end the year on
a most auspicious note!

Salvia Sempronia Graccha did an exemplary job of research before selecting
Gens Sempronia, contacting many cives NovaRomani for advice on naming
conventions, but more than that, she sought a good fit into the lives of her
adoptive family and its gods. We exchanged several satisfying letters, and I
know that she received a great deal of advice and support from Censor Caeso
Fabius Quintillianus' excellent staff.

Her interests include the Religio, philosophy, Latin, and we share a
fondness for archery. I am convinced that Salvia Sempronia Graccha will be
an outstanding civa NovaRomani.

Please make her welcome!

---
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| materfamilias,
@____@ Gens Sempronia
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/GensSempronia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 12/30/04 3:09:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
albucius_aoe@... writes:

I urge also the citizens to make of this list a healthier place in
the same direction it seems it have been taken.


The list has always been healthy. This no different then any other list
i've been a member.
Nor is it any worse.

Q. Fabius Maximus.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Salvia Sempronia Graccha,

Congratulations on your new citizenship in Nova Roma. You picked a
great gens indeed along with its materfamilias. A hearty welcome to
Nova Roma and I certainly hope you will enjoy your stay with us for
years to come. I must say it gets very addictive here.

From what I read you are certainly self-motivated, know where to go,
how to research and all. Still, if you have any questions or
concerns, please do not hesitate to ask. There is always someone
here who can help and we are glad to do it at that. Meanwhile have a
happy new year and a great weekend!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Propraetor Canada Occidentalis

Elected Quaestor









--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Julilla Sempronia Magna"
<curatrix@v...> wrote:

> Villa Ivlilla StationeryJulilla Sempronia Magna omnibus SPD
>
> It is with no small amount of joy that I announce a new citizen

into our

> ancient Plebeian gens: Salvia Sempronia Graccha, and thus we end

the year on

> a most auspicious note!
>
> Salvia Sempronia Graccha did an exemplary job of research before

selecting

> Gens Sempronia, contacting many cives NovaRomani for advice on

naming

> conventions, but more than that, she sought a good fit into the

lives of her

> adoptive family and its gods. We exchanged several satisfying

letters, and I

> know that she received a great deal of advice and support from

Censor Caeso

> Fabius Quintillianus' excellent staff.
>
> Her interests include the Religio, philosophy, Latin, and we share

a

> fondness for archery. I am convinced that Salvia Sempronia Graccha

will be

> an outstanding civa NovaRomani.
>
> Please make her welcome!
>
> ---
> @____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
> |||| materfamilias,
> @____@ Gens Sempronia
> |||| www.villaivlilla.com/GensSempronia
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

How true this is! I belong to quite a few lists and even little old
me got kicked off and permently barred from one for reversing logic
back in the face of a racist moderator and giving him a taste of his
own medicine. The Imperial Rome 2 list is really good but there have
been some heated ugly debates as well. The moderator there wastes no
time in shutting down the conversation when things are heated and
hey, there are no political agendas there. Its just a discussion
group. I'm all for better civility and compassion on this list,
wonder if newbies should even come here first, and sometimes my hair
curls or cringes at the thought of new members seeing some of the
things that fly but in fairness it is certainly not at all unique
here.


Regards

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

>
>
> The list has always been healthy. This no different then any

other list

> i've been a member.
> Nor is it any worse.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.

Savete omnes.

Today, after a period of difficult and careful deliberation, I have come
to the decision to resign from my offices of Pontifex, Minervae Aedis
Sacerdos and Lictor. A combination of factors has led my to this decision:

1. The religio occupies a distinct minority position within Nova Roma.
Over the summer I conducted a survey on the Main list and Religio list
to try and determine approximately how many practitioners of the Religio
Romana we had within Nova Roma, and try to get a feel for the various
viewpoints present among those practitioners. While I doubt every single
practitioner in Nova Roma took part in the survey, I still found the
results to be very disappointing. I had a total of 40 responses, of
which 35 were from current citizens. Of those 35, only 22 chose to self
identify as practitioners of the Religio Romana. Even if that number was
double (or treble) the fact remains that with a population of 1000 or so
citizens, believers in the Roman Gods comprise a terribly small
percentage of Nova Roma, especially considering the rebirth of the
Religio Romana is one of the its primary stated goals.

As a Pontifex, I was a servant of the Senate and People of Nova Roma,
administering the State Religio on their behalf and for their benefit.
When I completed my survey, I was struck with the question of whether or
not the majority of the citizens of Nova Roma really wanted, appreciated
or took seriously the services I or my colleagues (at least in theory)
rendered on their behalf. I have decided that I cannot, in good
conscience, continue to work in a position to serve the people of Nova
Roma, when my views and opinions on religion are clearly not in line
with their own.

2. The intrusion of politics, both personal and otherwise into the
religio. The Religio has become excessively politicized in Nova Roma,
and is used as a weapon to advance personal and political agendas. The
Collegium Pontificum has not functioned as a body since I have been a
member due to to political, religious and personal differences, and as a
result the position and status of the Religio Roman within NR has
suffered immeasurably. Any decision (or lack thereof) of the CP or the
publicly stated opinion of its members are subject to almost immediate
public attack and criticism. I can see no end in sight to the deadlock,
and I personally do not think the Religio Romana has much of a future
within Nova Roma. While I may be wrong, I am no longer willing to spin
my wheels working within a system that appears obviously broken, and
apparently unfixable.

I would like to offer my sincere thanks to all of my friends here in
Nova Roma, who have given me so much support, advice and assistance over
the past year, and also my apologies to the citizens of Nova Roma for my
inability to successfully carry out my duties and responsibilities as
Pontifex.

I intend to focus my energies on other projects involving the Religio
Romana, and in my own personal research and worship. I also will
continue to maintain my on line Temple to Minerva. While I am stepping
down from involvement in public life in NR, I do intend to remain in
Nova Roma for the time being as a private citizen.

Valete bene in pace Deorum,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

Salvete Quirites, et salve Julilla Sempronia,

Julilla Sempronia Magna wrote:

> It is with no small amount of joy that I announce a new citizen into our
> ancient Plebeian gens: Salvia Sempronia Graccha, and thus we end the year on
> a most auspicious note!

Indeed you do! I've had a bit of correspondence with her since she
first appeared and she is indeed an outstanding addition to Nova Roma.
I'm pleased to welcome her here.

Valete Quirites,

-- Marinus

Salve.

For some reason, I am not listed amongst the Gens Tullia even though
my citizenship was approved over a year ago. I have tried to get in
touch with the Paterfamilias to no avail. It would seem that I am
in "Gens" limbo and I do not know what I am to do next?

Assistance would be greatly appreciated as I would like to
participate with the rest of my gens.

Lucia Tullia Vatia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "ms_m2you" <ms_m2you@y...> wrote:

>
> Salve.
>
> For some reason, I am not listed amongst the Gens Tullia even

though

> my citizenship was approved over a year ago. I have tried to get

in

> touch with the Paterfamilias to no avail. It would seem that I am
> in "Gens" limbo and I do not know what I am to do next?
>
> Assistance would be greatly appreciated as I would like to
> participate with the rest of my gens.
>
> Lucia Tullia Vatia

Consider your problem fixed. Your status was listed as "socius" -- a
status usually given to non-responders to the census, but you're too
new to Nova Roma to have participated in our last census (but be
ready next year!).

As one of the Censorial scribae, I changed your status to "capite
censi," so you should now proudly show up with your fellow gens
Tullia family.

Felicem Novum Annum tibi exopto!

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Factio Praesina
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina/

Salve Gai Minuci,

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix wrote:

> Today, after a period of difficult and careful deliberation, I have come
> to the decision to resign from my offices of Pontifex, Minervae Aedis
> Sacerdos and Lictor. [...]

This is a loss for Nova Roma. I respect your reasons for resigning, but
it is still a loss for us all. May Minerva guide you now and always.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Gaius Modius Athanasius Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit

The departure of Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix from the priesthood of Nova
Roma is a huge loss. The apathy within Collegium Pontificum is doing more to
harm Nova Roma than any other cancer that afflicts our Republic.

I sympathize with Hadrianus.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:28:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gawne@... writes:

Salve Gai Minuci,

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix wrote:

> Today, after a period of difficult and careful deliberation, I have come
> to the decision to resign from my offices of Pontifex, Minervae Aedis
> Sacerdos and Lictor. [...]

This is a loss for Nova Roma. I respect your reasons for resigning, but
it is still a loss for us all. May Minerva guide you now and always.

Vale,

-- Marinus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

P. Minius Albucius Ga. Minucio Hadriano omnibusque s.d.

You wrote, dear Minucius :

>(..) Today, (..)decision to resign (..). A combination of factors
>has led my to this decision:

> 1. The religio occupies a distinct minority position within Nova
>Roma. (..) Even if that number was double (or treble) the fact
>remains that with a population of 1000 or so citizens, believers in
>the Roman Gods comprise a terribly small percentage of Nova Roma,
>especially considering the rebirth of the Religio Romana is one of
>the its primary stated goals.

I think that you are pointing here one of our important question :
what place for religion in Nova Roma ? This question is in relation
with 3 fundamental others: 1/ "How did exactly work ancient Rome ?"
2/ "Can we duplicate ancient roman way ?" 3/ "What every citizen is
looking for in Nova Roma ?"

What we often forget is that our ancient Rome was a global world.
Religion was important, and a real part of the daily life, but
lacked in importance, in the institutional landscape, as and when
Rome grew and complexified. To say that religio romana is
fundamental is one thing, to take reality in account another one.
(Historical) Iulius Caesar has been pontifex maximus. Do we remember
he as such ?

One could say : "Maybe, but religion should have an important place
in the private sphere". Yes, but here is the problem that you
underline : each one of us deals with religio according her/his
conviction, time, way of living, knowledges, etc. We must perhaps
consider that this private sphere may be a chance for Nova Roma :
each one is free to involve in religio according her/his
possibilities. A tiny private involvement, a diffuse sympathy for
our Gods may be better, for Nova Roma, than a system of rules that
would be felt as restricting.

What every one of us looks in Nova Roma ? Different things. Though,
we could say that we could have more common values than differences
point of views. Yes, considering the non Nova Roma world. But in
Nova Roma, we belong to many "factiones" (in a non political sense)
and groups of interests. One would be interested in language +
politics + religio etc. while another in litterature + clothing +
cooking, the third in military renacting and so on.

And, because we cannot force a citizen to believe in our Gods or
prove her/his support to religio romana as a whole system, we cannot
link our citizenship to a full respect of the religio, which would
be uneasy, anyway, to define.

Here is one of our great differences with ancient Roma - and
challenge for us : ancient people did not have the choice to belong
to the roman world. They were geographically inside or outside. If
inside, they had to accept every aspect of this world : economy,
social relations, relation to religio, to State, to culture, etc.
Because they lived in a real world, under a organized State, which
could physically enforce its decisions.
Our cives do have the choice : to enter Nova Roma and to live their
citizenship rather in a certain way than in another.

It seems that your study has underlined the small part of
practitioners or believers. I would make two observations : first,
if verified, this statement must ask us if our institutions do not
give too much importance to religio ; but second, maybe that the way
that the question has been understood has limited potential positive
answers. I am sure that every civis has at least some « sympathy »
for one or several roman gods. This ground may be not bad at all to
develop religio, no ?

> 2. As a Pontifex, I was a servant of the Senate and People of
>Nova Roma, administering the State Religio on their behalf and for
>their benefit. When I completed my survey, I was struck with the
>question of whether or not the majority of the citizens of Nova
>Roma really wanted, appreciated or took seriously the services I or
>my colleagues (at least in theory) rendered on their behalf. (..)

Maybe we could consider things differently - and you would please
forgive my economic way to set things (!) : what service may the
different collegia sacerdotium bring to people ? What to do in order
to remind cives that you may help them and the Res publica ? For
example, why these collegii would not organize some (internet or
not) event on religio ? I am convinced that the seek of knowledge is
one of the things that we almost all share in NR.

> 3. The intrusion of politics, both personal and otherwise into the
> religio. The Religio has become excessively politicized in Nova
>Roma, and is used as a weapon to advance personal and political
>agendas.

I think it is inevitable as soon as cursus honorum is important for
us, plurality of offices unlimited, as our institutional system have
offices to fill, and collegia sacerdotium are among these offices.

>The Collegium Pontificum has not functioned as a body since I have
>been a member due to political, religious and personal
>differences, (..)

No doubt that the different collegia would take the opportunity of
your statements to deal with these difficulties. All the
institutions of Nova Roma could help them that way.

Scr. Cadomago, civ. Viducassium, Gallia, Pridie Ian. MMDCCLVIII
a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba Propraetoris Galliae
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

Salvete,

I am not following this thread so I don't know what all of you are talking about.
I am impressed however by the level and depth of research that Cornelianus has gone into to make his point. May I suggest to our newly elected magistrates to use our dear Cornelianus as a scriba as he seems to have plenty of time on his hands. Perhaps he could be assigned to one of the praetores to investigate all the posts made by Drusus over the past year. I am sure Cornelianus' talent in collating information will also be most useful in that particular case.

Optime Valete

Moravius Laureatus


In an email dated Thu, 30 12 2004 7:14:43 pm GMT, "Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus" <julius_cornelianus@...> writes:

>
>Salve Maior,
>                   Well firstly this thread was not one I have been paying particular attention to.  Rather I've been checking in randomly to see what is being said.  Yes indeed this started off as a friendly discussion.  But its baby steps into degeneration happened before Scaurus or Maximus even entered.  Going through the archives to review the posts after you initially posted the information on the female who was buried, one can see the negativity already was injected after QLP posted an article with a rebuttal he found, when in post #31600 it was said,
>
>"All I have to say to this misguided fellow is "Don't look now, sir, but your sexism is showing."
>
>Is the introduction of sexism really necessary?  If one really wants a friendly interaction then they can do without negative connotations.  However, it starts to go down when Vestinia Caprenia joins in.  Not because of what she said but because of the reaction.  Vestinia pointed out in post #31652,
>
>"The "Gladiatrix" is still being researched. We cannot make
>assumptions -- either way! -- the she was or was not a gladiatrix."
>
>She is right in that you should not make assumptions.
>
>"So, let's not assume that people are "closeminded" or "sexist"
>because they doubt the conclusions someone has leapt to before the
>research is completed -- especially with items from a dig completed
>decades ago and where we cannot investigate items in context."
>
>
>Yet she remains objective.
>
>"The women's remains found in the dig may be auxilary soldiers. They
>may not...Let's wait for the full research to be done before we get too excited either way. A Misrepresentation of the Truth, no matter how desired or deserved, does no good to any of us."
>
>She was immediately pounced upon.  I can only gather because she did not wholeheartedly jump to a final conclusion.  Firstly she was jumped upon as combining to different issues, the subject of this thread and the gladiatrix you brought up (post #31602).  To this she replied in post #31666
>
>"The issue was conflated long before I got to it. It was pitched as
>yet another bit of evidence, all of which add up to the conclusion we most desire to see."
>
>Yet,
>
>"one does not have to "assume" someone is sexist when they prove that fact for you by every word that comes out of their mouths." (post #31658)
>
>I'm still trying to figure out how one arrive at the conclusion the rebuttal is "sexist".  The author clearly states:
>
>"It is not unheard of that women could have taken part in fighting
>among certain people fighting alongside the Romans, but I am a bit
>surprised that this bit would not be mentioned by more Roman writers, such as Vegetius, who would have considered this an original curiosity worth a sentence."
>
>The author accepts that there it is established there were female combatants.  Just because he does not jump to the conclusion of what this find might be hardly makes him sexist.  Vestinia was also jumped upon for saying,
>
>"And my point was that *right now* it is fashionable to see the graves that way. Just as it was fashionable, a decade or more ago, to see them as symbolic or shamanistic."
>
>and received the defensive response
>
>"Archaeologists do not arrive at their conclusions to be fashionable. I am studying archeology and know, firsthand, how dedicated these people are to determining the truth from what they find."
>
>No reference was made to arachaeologists.  rather defensive aren't we?  Jumping to a conclusion without merit (not you maior).
>
>But what I find funny is the hypocriosy of all this.  After Vestinia stated,
>
>"The issue was conflated long before I got to it. It was pitched as
>yet another bit of evidence, all of which add up to the conclusion we most desire to see."
>
>Both yourself and Maxima stated loud and clear on the issue of the gladiatrix,
>
>"The gladiatrix was given as one example, but others could have just as easily been used." (Maxima)
>
>"I brought up the gladiatrix in rebuttal to point out that these women existed, as proven by archeological evidence but that no literature exists about them."
>
>I find this to be funny considering you both admit it was introduced as support of female combatants after you jumped on Vestinia about it.  However with this discussion started on 12/22 by you we jump to 12/27 when Maximus first posted on this thread.  In fact he was rather civil.  Not a single word of hostility.  Hostility doesn't begin till you post (#31713) going after scaurus you said,
>
>"I had the pleasure of conversing with the late great & much beloved Classical scholar Professor Finlay of Harvard; unlike yourself he was a man of infinite wisdom and kindness to neophytes."
>
>Unlike Scaurus you were clearly taking a pot shot.  Neither he nor maximus were rude, disrespectful, or "insulting" at this point.  Despite this Maximus still remained objective.
>
>"but until collaborating evidence (tombstone, diploma, pay tokens) turn up don't spread false info."
>
>You seemed to have reached your conclusion already. But just because someone jump on the bandwagon and proclaiming a conclusion are not sexist, chauvinist or any other type of connotation one can dig up as is the case here from post # 31809
>
>"those who dismiss the possibility of women in the numerii can stop beating their chests and put down their clubs now. Your display of time-honored sexism has been noted."
>
>It seems to me there are only two individuals who have contributed negativity to this subject and their names are not Scaurus and Maximus.
>
>                                               Vale, Cornelianus
>
>        
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
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>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Gaius Modius Athanasius Publio Minio Albucio salutem dicit

So then what? What becomes of the Religio Romana within Nova Roma? Does it
get relegated to a "Religio Sodalitas?" When priests of Nova Roma make
sacrifices and offerings to the Gods we do so on behalf of the Senate and People
of (New) Rome. Its not simply on behalf of "those Senators and People of
(New) Rome who believe in them."

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius
Flamen Pomonalis, Pontifex, et Augur

In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:03:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
albucius_aoe@... writes:

And, because we cannot force a citizen to believe in our Gods or
prove her/his support to religio romana as a whole system, we cannot
link our citizenship to a full respect of the religio, which would
be uneasy, anyway, to define.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve G. Moravi

> Perhaps he could be assigned to one of the praetores

to > investigate all the posts made by Drusus over the
past > year.

Great idea. Whilst he's at it perhap he could kill two
birds with one stone and investigate the posts of
those that continually goad him into an abrasive
response ;-)

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus





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hello
iam looking for a online course on history, ancient history.
is there any online university?
tks

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] My Resignation


Salve Gai Minuci,

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix wrote:

> Today, after a period of difficult and careful deliberation, I have come
> to the decision to resign from my offices of Pontifex, Minervae Aedis
> Sacerdos and Lictor. [...]

This is a loss for Nova Roma. I respect your reasons for resigning, but
it is still a loss for us all. May Minerva guide you now and always.

Vale,

-- Marinus

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Quirites,

As our newly elected magistrates prepare to give their oath of office
tomorrow, I want to draw their attention to the fact that the Latin
version of the oath has been updated to provide a more grammatically
correct oath.

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-10-19-ii.html.la

This URL provides the latest Latin version of the oath. If you have
Latin text from past years, please replace it with the text from the
website.

Valete,

-- Marinus

Ah my dear Silane, always quick to spot sarcasm ;)

Happy new year to you too...

Optime vale

Laureatus

In an email dated Fri, 31 12 2004 1:00:45 pm GMT, Decimus Iunius Silanus <iuniussilanus@...> writes:

>
>Salve G. Moravi
>
>> Perhaps he could be assigned to one of the praetores
>to > investigate all the posts made by Drusus over the
>past > year.
>
>Great idea. Whilst he's at it perhap he could kill two
>birds with one stone and investigate the posts of
>those that continually goad him into an abrasive
>response ;-)
>
>Vale
>
>Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
>
>    
>    
>        
>___________________________________________________________
>ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve!

Please try Academia Thules at http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/

>hello
>iam looking for a online course on history, ancient history.
>is there any online university?
>tks

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

tks!!

----- Original Message -----
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] My Resignation


Salve!

Please try Academia Thules at http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/

>hello
>iam looking for a online course on history, ancient history.
>is there any online university?
>tks

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Censor, Consularis et Senator
Proconsul Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve C. Munici Hadriane Felix,

Well this is sad news for NR but I know you do not make decisions
lightly or on the fleet of the moment. We must all accept your
decision but being a non-practitioner I shall refrain from
commenting on problems within the college.

I still wish to thank you for staying on as a private citizen,
continuing your other projects and all. If there is anything I can
do to help you in the future, please do not hesitate to ask. Just
take a load off your feet and have a great new year's eve!

Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus












--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:

> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Savete omnes.
>
> Today, after a period of difficult and careful deliberation, I

have come

> to the decision to resign from my offices of Pontifex, Minervae

Aedis

> Sacerdos and Lictor. A combination of factors has led my to this

decision:

>
> 1. The religio occupies a distinct minority position within Nova

Roma.

> Over the summer I conducted a survey on the Main list and Religio

list

> to try and determine approximately how many practitioners of the

Religio

> Romana we had within Nova Roma, and try to get a feel for the

various

> viewpoints present among those practitioners. While I doubt every

single

> practitioner in Nova Roma took part in the survey, I still found

the

> results to be very disappointing. I had a total of 40 responses,

of

> which 35 were from current citizens. Of those 35, only 22 chose to

self

> identify as practitioners of the Religio Romana. Even if that

number was

> double (or treble) the fact remains that with a population of 1000

or so

> citizens, believers in the Roman Gods comprise a terribly small
> percentage of Nova Roma, especially considering the rebirth of the
> Religio Romana is one of the its primary stated goals.
>
> As a Pontifex, I was a servant of the Senate and People of Nova

Roma,

> administering the State Religio on their behalf and for their

benefit.

> When I completed my survey, I was struck with the question of

whether or

> not the majority of the citizens of Nova Roma really wanted,

appreciated

> or took seriously the services I or my colleagues (at least in

theory)

> rendered on their behalf. I have decided that I cannot, in good
> conscience, continue to work in a position to serve the people of

Nova

> Roma, when my views and opinions on religion are clearly not in

line

> with their own.
>
> 2. The intrusion of politics, both personal and otherwise into the
> religio. The Religio has become excessively politicized in Nova

Roma,

> and is used as a weapon to advance personal and political agendas.

The

> Collegium Pontificum has not functioned as a body since I have

been a

> member due to to political, religious and personal differences,

and as a

> result the position and status of the Religio Roman within NR has
> suffered immeasurably. Any decision (or lack thereof) of the CP or

the

> publicly stated opinion of its members are subject to almost

immediate

> public attack and criticism. I can see no end in sight to the

deadlock,

> and I personally do not think the Religio Romana has much of a

future

> within Nova Roma. While I may be wrong, I am no longer willing to

spin

> my wheels working within a system that appears obviously broken,

and

> apparently unfixable.
>
> I would like to offer my sincere thanks to all of my friends here

in

> Nova Roma, who have given me so much support, advice and

assistance over

> the past year, and also my apologies to the citizens of Nova Roma

for my

> inability to successfully carry out my duties and responsibilities

as

> Pontifex.
>
> I intend to focus my energies on other projects involving the

Religio

> Romana, and in my own personal research and worship. I also will
> continue to maintain my on line Temple to Minerva. While I am

stepping

> down from involvement in public life in NR, I do intend to remain

in

> Nova Roma for the time being as a private citizen.
>
> Valete bene in pace Deorum,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

I am not a hired gun to target people like Drusus. You will not catch me as anyone's personal character assassin. It took me a whole 15 minutes to look up those posts. Anyone can do it if they take the time.


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> As our newly elected magistrates prepare to give their oath
> of office tomorrow, I want to draw their attention to the
> fact that the Latin version of the oath has been updated to
> provide a more grammatically correct oath.
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-10-19-ii.html.la
>
> This URL provides the latest Latin version of the oath. If
> you have Latin text from past years, please replace it with
> the text from the website.

As a follow-up note, this was translated before the Lex Equitia de
Vigintisexviris came into effect, so there are a few offices left out in the
note on inserting one's office. The correct forms for the missing offices
are these:

rogatoris, diribitoris, custodis

I'll add these to the translation above shortly.

Valete Bene,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Postumianus

Salve;
sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the same for
victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"

Drusus is, as you say & I entirely agree, very smart. He's a grown
educated man & can control himself and think of more elegant ways to
express himself than verbally abuse everyone here on the ML and at
the Religio group.
bene vale
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ

>
> Great idea. Whilst he's at it perhap he could kill two
> birds with one stone and investigate the posts of
> those that continually goad him into an abrasive
> response ;-)
>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus:

> The correct forms for the missing offices are these:
>
> rogatoris, diribitoris, custodis

What is the feminine of "diribitoris?" For that matter, where is the
feminine version of the oath?

Thanks in advance,
Claudia Iulia

--
Claudia Iulia <futabachan@...>

Salve Colleague-Elect,

> > The correct forms for the missing offices are these:
> >
> > rogatoris, diribitoris, custodis
>
> What is the feminine of "diribitoris?" For that matter,
> where is the feminine version of the oath?

The form is "diribitricis," and the oath is on the lower half of this page:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-10-19-ii.html.la.

Vale Bene,

Metellus

Salve Metelle, et salvete omnes,

"Q. Caecilius Metellus" <postumianus@...> writes:

> As a follow-up note, this was translated before the Lex Equitia de
> Vigintisexviris came into effect, so there are a few offices left out in
> the note on inserting one's office. The correct forms for the missing
> offices are these:
>
> rogatoris, diribitoris, custodis
>
> I'll add these to the translation above shortly.

I see you already have. Thanks for catching that. Also, I answered Claudia
Iulia off-list. Any other women who are interested in the feminine forms and
text can find them all at the same URL I posted earlier.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salvete,

As the year winds down to a close with it being about an hour and a
half until the clock strikes midnight and 2758 AUC officially begins
in Rome I'd like to thank Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Consul-Elect
Franciscus Apulus Caesar, and Diribitor-Elect Quintus Caecilius
Metellus Postumianus for their support and kind services as scriba
to the office of Magister Aranearius.

The office of Magister Aranearius will go vacant in about 90 minutes
as no one stood for election. I will not be standing for another
term (or any other elected office) as many of you know my brother-in-
law has been diagnosed with cancer and my sister and niece will be
needing my hands on support over the next six months as he goes
through chemotherapy and surgery. The good news there is the tumor
appears to be localized and has not spread beyond the stomach and
the odds are in his favor based on what is known at this time.
Like anything of this nature it is pray for the best and prepare for
the worst.

I hope that someone will quickly step forward to serve as Magister
Aranearius this January when elections are called to fill the
remaining vacancies that were not filled in the past election cycle.
In the meantime to prevent a meltdown that a long term vacancy in
the Magister Aranearius office could cause I will, with the
permission of the Senate, continue to maintain the Tabularium and
put up citizen photos on their profile until a successor is
elected.

Valete,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Magister Aranearius