Salvete
In the two thousand seventy eigth year of the City, the citizens F. Apulus
Caesar and Gaius Popillius Laenas have entered office as consuls.

For Romans it is important at the start of the year to carry out a careful
observance to ensure
success in public and private affairs. The first words spoken on awakening
in the morning, and the first actions accomplished within the house must be
cheerful and uncomplaining. To bring luck, laurel and saffron, is placed around
the door or burned on the little household altar. But unlike today, New
Years Day in Rome was no holiday. As the year started, so would it continue. The
citizens must carry out a typical day. This means one could visit and receive
your friends & clients; reciprocate good wishes to one other, give out
little gifts of dates, figs and honey to sweeten the approaching year; but then
the citizens would be off to work.

If you were in Rome in the 200s BCE the first thing you would notice is
along the Sacred Way that led to Capitoline are that the temples, normally kept
shut, are open to worship, and fire burns on the altars that stands before
them.
You would next notice a solemn procession of Romans along the Sacred Way,
ready to make its way up to the Temple of Jupiter Best and Greatest to seek a
blessing on the city and its outside communities for the coming year. So
early in the day (hour after sunrise) the crowds have gathered in the Forum
Romanum near the the Senate house. Each senator is wearing his heavy, woollen toga
over the broad purple stripe of his tunic, the patricians wearing scarlet
shoes, the plebians regular sandals. Of the 300 likely 250 would be present on
such a special occasion-all those not hindered by illness or extreme age or
absent on the public service in or outside Italy.
Then follows the 'knights' or Equities: wearing their togas over the narrow
purple stripe of their
tunics, men rich enough to afford the expense of a horse, so that they can
provide the cavalry of the army.
Next, came the people of the city themselves. The shopkeepers, artisans,
servants, laborers, farmers in for the day from the nearby country; and almost
as numerous and not very detectable from their dress, freedmen and the
slaves, immigrants or the domestics climbing towards Roman citizenship.
The procession would form up as the Consuls, dressed in the purple and
embroidered togas of consuls, appeared from the Senate house. At the front moved
the senators and knights; then, immediately preceding the consular pair, their
lictors, each with the fasces that traditional bundle of rods strapped round
an axe and supported in left hand and on left shoulder showing the imperium
of a Roman magistrate, having the power of life and death over the citizens.
Behind the Consuls would carried the ceremonial Etruscan folding stools of
metal inlaid with carved ivory, their curule chairs (sellae curules).
Following the procession at its end would be implements of the sacrifice,
the priests, a herald, flute player, the victimarius, (the slayer) his
assistant and young boy. (To follow the ancient tradition both his parents must be
still living), together with the sacrifices: white oxen from the Faliscan
heights or the plains of Clitunno, their horns covered in gilt.
At the foot of the Capitoline slope the congregation would turn left, and
move north-westwards
towards the Capitol, past the high dais of the Temple of Saturn, up the
steep slope of the paved, slightly curving Sacred Way that led along the south
part of Capitoline Hill. Once through the gate and into the sacred area, they
squeezed into position among the columns fronting the Temple of Jupiter, Juno
and Minerva. Within the doorway of the central shrine, that of Jupiter, the
consuls would take their places for the first time upon their sellae curules,
facing outwards towards the altar, the body of people and Rome. It would be
now necessary to take the auspices and make sure, that the god would accept
the coming sacrifice. The cage containing the sacred chickens, was administered
by a special official, the pullarius. If the birds scurried away instead of
pecking at the pieces of pulse thrown to them,
no sacrifice could be carried out. Instead the ceremony would be resumed on
the morrow.

But now the pullarius reports in due course that the birds have fed. The
altar fire crackles with saffron, casting a glow on the gilded coffers of the
shaded pronaos. In the presence of the togate consuls and the Senate and People
of Rome keeping holy silence, the purple-veiled priest offers prayers for the
state, a formulae repeated from a written page and checked for correctness
by a listener appointed for the purpose. Any slip of the tongue, any stumble
or mispronunciation taints the proceedings and the spoken ritual will have to
start from the beginning. To muffle unlucky noises the piper plays while the
ritual is carried out.
After the last words have died away, the head of the ox is sprinkled with
meal by the priest, and turned sideways; the animal's throat is slit. As it
dies quickly, the ox is disembowelled and its entrails laid upon the altar.
Only if the ritual could be duplicated undeviatingly like those of the past
years can another year of success be expected to come to Rome.
Afterwards will come a second offering of an ox, this time made by the
twelve Brethren of the Fields, an ancient and exclusive body. Its descent lay in
the faraway and obscure past, when Rome and her community was a little town
dependent on the yield of the land, so this yield must still be assured by
reverence.
Now there are only a few nobles to carry on this ancient tradition. Once
this ceremony is concluded, the procession will re-form and descend the way it
came.

The consuls, magistrates and senators would then make their way to the
Senate house in the north-east corner of the Forum for the first meeting of the
year.

So it was then, be it done now!

Happy New Year, Romans!
Best Wishes from Q. Fabius Maximus.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.

The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary, and
suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?

This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been used on
this discussion for its entirety.

Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal attack."
Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
Research into posts made on this topic suddenly equals "domestic
violence."

That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.

That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't require the
word "knee."

Vestinia Caprenia

--- Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

> sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the same for
> victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"

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--- Maxima <violetphearsen@...> wrote:

> Hardly. Wouldn't the Romans know a good warrior when they saw one,
> regardless of gender, and employ such warriors if it proved to
> their advantage? Sure they would. That's not 21st century thinking,
> that *smart* thinking.

The Romans were sexist pigs. I acknowledge that openly and honestly,
viewing them from my 21st century perspective. The Romans wouldn't
hire a woman warrior, even if their lives depended on it -- they were
wallowing, grunting, rooting sexist pigs. And they liked it.

The women they honored most were those who "knew their place" and
behaved in a manner the paterfamilias approved of, and could control.

It is absolutely 21st century thinking that a "smart" commander would
use anyone who demonstrated skill. We have had, throughout history,
and especially in this discussion, the reprehensible example of how
personal, poltical or sociological ideology trumphs reason. For the
Romans, the physical, spiritual, mental and moral inferiority of the
female of the species was as part of their worldview as gravity is to
ours. They would see no reason to change that -- **especially** once
they saw their enemies fielding women warriors.

Vestinia Caprenia



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--- Maxima <violetphearsen@...> wrote:

> What I am trying to say is
> that regardless of what path a woman chooses, she wants the freedom
> to choose and not be limited because it's not what most women would
> like to do. And women have always wanted that freedom, right
> through the ages, from day one.

No, they have **not** -- and this is the point.

This ideology is a creation of the 20th Century. The idea of having
the freedom to live your life as you chose is a creation of our
(essentially) classless, industrialized society. The men of those
times didn't have the freedom to live their lives as they wanted --
and for many, it never crossed their minds that they *had* a choice.

I hear the rebuttal now: "But they always had a choice, they knew
that!"

No, they did not. It was not part of the ancient worldview -- you had
a place and you were stuck there. Fortune might bring you down in the
world, but your birth determined your place and your worth. A farmer
was a farmer and a lord was a lord. You could be a good farmer or a
bad lord but you couldn't change your status, your "place." The kind
of mental elasticity which accompanies this kind of social
flexibility did not exist -- for men *or* women.

Some individuals challenged the norms of their own societies, but
that's why they were written about -- they were different. They were
considered freakish. People who "violated" their social roles, and
the manner they were supposed to conduct themselves in, in that
social role, were mocked, derided and ridiculed.

And, in Roman times, that meant satire. In print. Apuleius. Martial.
Juvenal. Petronius.

We need to stop looking at the past with our 21st century glasses on.
It's twisting history. Warping the truth to a shape which pleases us
does no good to us -- anymore than warping the truth to a shape which
pleased our ancestors did them any good, either.

Vestinia Caprenia



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Salvete omnes.

I cannot think of a more sensible series of posts than those from
Vestinia Caprenia on this thread.

One of the problems with how history and even literature, such as
Shakespeare for example, is taught and viewed today in grade schools
(having recently put two boys through this system I am fully aware
of the course content) is that it is entirely from a modernistic
perspective. Events and actions are interpreted using modern
motivations, principles, politics and explanations. Often the most
obvious reasons are ignored, as politically incorrect. Sadly
this "methodology" carries over into adult life.

History is not about how things should have been or might have been;
history is about how things were, with no ornamentation, trimming,
pruning or censorship.

Calls have been frequently made for a "raising of the tone" on this
list, vis a vis better debates on serious historical topics. Posts
have been made about how this list degenerates into slam-dunking of
political opponents. Those that call for higher standards should not
then engage in precisely the same sort of behaviour they apparently
abhor.

If the facts of Roman history and life are so unpleasant to some
people when that history is discussed in a strictly factual manner,
then I would suggest that they either abandon their involvement in
an attempt to recreate Roman society, or, they accept that history
cannot be re-written or interpreted to suit modern norms. History is
simply history. What we do with that history here in Nova Roma is a
different matter.

Congratulations Vestinia Caprenia for injecting a heavy dose of
common sense into this thread.

Valete
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

G. Equitius Cato Vestiniae Capriniae S.P.D.

Salve Vestinia Caprinia.

Although I have taken no place in the discussion of "women
warriors", what you have said has struck a particular chord, and I
would like to respond.

You are absolutely correct. To try to invest the sensibilities of
the 21st (or 20th, or 19th, &c.) mind upon the ancients is
ludicrous. The social, cultural, scientific, political, and martial
evolutions which have taken place since Rome stood victorious upon
the battlefield are too overwhelming, too all-encompassing to try to
mold them into the patterns with which we, as products of the
intervening centuries, are most comfortable. To try to do so is a
grievous affront to both the ancients and ourselves.

You are also absolutely correct when you describe the social context
within which the ancients lived and moved; this context, expanded
and defined to its utmost degree in the High Middle Ages as
the "Great Chain of Being", assigned every living human to a place
within society, and the structure of that society was seen as
utterly dependent upon the idea that each man knew his place and
each place had its men --- from the Kingship of Almighty God and His
ordering of the ranks of the Hosts of heaven down to its mirror
image on earth, from emperor to slave. The great peasant revolts of
the mid 1240s was not a matter of the peasants wanting to become
lords; they merely wanted their place, the realm of existence within
which every part of their lives had its rationale, to continue
unchanged. They knew that society would collapse unless it did.
Sumptuary laws, the placing of diners above or below the salt, the
droit de seigneur; every action in society had repercussions and
meaning to those whose lives were lived within its framework,
whether we in the modern world would consider that meaning
acceptable or not.

The greater question then, one which faces us in Nova Roma, is how
do we proceed to enliven the romanitas of the ancients while still
inextricably bound to the social and cultural mores of the time and
countries in which we have our being?

There are of course extremes --- from the citizen who rejects every
trapping of the evolution of modern life since the triumph of
Christianity over paganism to the citizen who wants to see Nova Roma
become a U.S.-style democracy where individualism and personal
freedoms trump every other consideration.

I believe that the vast majority of our citizens are seeking to find
a via media; we want to acknowledge the benefits of mankind's
intellectual achievements over the past 1700 years yet use those
very same powers to create a society, a res publica, in which the
great Virtues of the ancients are made even more applicable, more
resonant in our lives, lives which though having been molded by
modern sensibilities, still yearn for the eternal visions of
dignitas, nobilitas, gravitas ... glimmers of which we have all seen
in the lives and acts of our great Roman forebears. We want to be
like them. We want romanitas.

There will come a day when I can stand togate on the steps of the
Met, framed by that stunning example of Roman architecture, and
speak; and those who are listening will not say, "Look at the guy in
the funny clothes", but rather, "This man speaks to something
important about who we were, who we are, and who we can be." That
day is when the vision of Nova Roma can begin to be truly realized.
But if WE do not believe it, how can we make others believe?

Everything we want to be, everything we strive to accomplish: the
reconstruction of the religio, the foundations of Roman government,
the recognization of the voice of the People --- all of these depend
upon our working together to create a NOVA Roma, one not bound
unthinkingly and unquestioned to the ancients, but rather one in
which the Virtues of the ancients are used as they themselves used
them to create a greater good, a greater vision, a res publica in
which, though temporal trappings may confuse, the ancients
themselves would recognize a pattern of thought and being as like
their own.

I have gone on far too long, but I hope some of this makes sense to
you and all my fellow-citizens. Again I say we have been given the
yarn shorn from ancient sheep with which to weave the fabric of the
res publica. Perhaps the design which emerges will not be a carbon
copy of that of the ancients, but the ancients would recognize the
methods by which that design was created.

Vale optimae,

Cato

Salvete,

Official Oath of Office

I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (Arthur McGrath) do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of custos to the best
of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of custos and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

In service to Rome,


Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator, Custos

Gaius Popillius Laenas Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit.

Last year, Consul elect Gn. Salix Astur consulted with Pontifex and
Flamen Quirinalis G. Iulius Scaurus to help with the preparation of a
simple ceremony that could serve as a reflection of the traditional
ceremony
performed by a newly elected consul in the dawn of the New Year.

Consul Fr. Apulus Caesar and I wish to continue his example, and to
fulfill his votum described below.


This is the historical introduction prepared by G. Iulius Scaurus:

>>"In Roma antiqua on the pridie Kalendae Ianuarii, the Pontifex

Maximus would have convened the Comitia Curiata to vote imperium to
the incoming curule magistrates, effective as of the Kalends of
Ianuarius, setting the legal grounds for the inauguration of the new
consuls. Before daybreak on the Kalends of Ianuarius the senior
consul-elect rose and prepared to survey the skies for auspicia
oblativa as the pullarius conducted the tripudium which would
determine the auspices of new consulship shortly after dawn. If a
favourable tripudium resulted, the consul-elect would return home,
attire himself in the consular toga praetexta and receive clients,
well-wishers, and senators in his atrium until the hour for the
procession to the Capitoline hill arrived."

"Accompanied by an accensus and priests, followed by twelve lictores
with unaxed fasces, and the multitude who had joined him at his home,
the senior consul-elect led the procession, gathering masses of
onlookers into the parade, to the temple of Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
on the Capitoline. The sella curulis was carried before the
consul-elect as a symbol of his assumption of imperium. At the
temple the consul-elect sacrificed two white heifers from the
Faliscan plain who had never known the yoke to the Capitoline triad
-- Iuppiter, Iuno, and Minerva -- and to Salus pro salute rei
publicae et senatus, for the well-being of the republic and senate.
These heifers had been vowed to these Gods the previous year on the
Kalends of Ianuarius by the incoming consuls and at the conclusion of
the sacrifice, the consul-elect pronounced the votum -- the oath that
two such heifers would be sacrificed on the following Kalends of
Ianuarius. With this vow the lictores presented themselves before
the consul, who had by the vow become consul in fact, and led him to
the Curia for his first meeting of the Senate as consul.
Well-wishers would shower him with coins for good luck."<<

It remains impossible for us in Nova Roma to follow the original rite
with precision. Last year, G. Iulius Scaurus prepared an alternative
caerimoni, composed from similar rituals, which was performed by
Consul Gn. Salix Astur.

Senior Consul Fr. Apulus Caesar is traveling and unable to perform the
caerimoni. He has asked me as Junior Consul, and his delegate, to do so.


Following the instructions from last year as posted by Consul Astur,
this very same morning, at approximately 12:30 am in Memphis,
Tennessee USA (approximately dawn in Rome), I performed the caerimoni
to the best of my ability.

Here it is:

I bathed in preparation, then, garbed in toga praetexta, cinctu
Gabino, capite velato, I began the praefatio.

Praefatio

"Iane pater, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae [Father Ianus,
by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may
be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma." I
placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae [Father Mars,
by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may
be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma.]" I
placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater, te hoc ture ommovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae [Father
Quirinus, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so
that you may be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova
Roma.]" I placed incense in the focus of the altar.

"Iane pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Ianus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for
the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a
libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Mars, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the
patera on the focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Quirinus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for
the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a
libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

I washed my hands in preparation for the praecatio.

Precatio

"Iuppiter Optime Maxime, rex Deorum, qui res publicas Novas Romanas
nunc custodit defenditque perinde ac res publicas patrum nostrorum
Romanorum custodivit defenditque, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore
initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda
esto [Iuppiter Best and Greatest, king of the Gods, who protects and
defends the public affairs of Nova Roma just as he protected and
defended the public affairs of our Roman fathers, to you it is proper
for a cup of wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake
of this thing may you be honoured by this feast offering]." I poured
a libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Iuno, regina Deorum, qui materne nunc Senatum Populumque Novae Romae
nutrit perinde ac Senatum Populumque Romanum in tempore patrum
nostrorum nutrivit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam
vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Iuno, queen
of the Gods, who maternally nurtures the Senate and People of Nova
Roma just as she nurtured the Senate and People of Rome in the time
of our fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in
this time of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be
honoured by this feast offering]." I poured a libation from the
patera on the focus of the altar.

"Minerva, sapientia aeterna, qui recte res publicas Novas Romanas
ducit perinde ac res publicas patrum nostrorum Romanorum duxit, tibi
fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo
hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Minerva, eternal wisdom, who rightly
guides the public affairs of Nova Roma just as she rightly guided the
public affairs of our Roman fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of
wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake of this
thing may you be honoured by this feast offering]." I poured a
libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

Salus, benefactrix Senatus Populique Romani et fideiussorix salutis
nostrae, qui Novam Romam conservat perinde ac Romam antiquam
conservavit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini
dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto [Salus,
benefactor of the Roman Senate and People and guarantor of our
well-being, who preserves Nova Roma just as she preserved ancient
Rome, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this time
of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honoured by this
feast offering]."

Again I washed my hands in preparation for the redditio.

Redditio

"Iuppiter Optime Maxime, rex Deorum, macte istace dape pollucenda
esto, macte vino inferio esto [Iuppiter Best and Greatest, king of
the Gods, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may you be
honoured by the humble wine.]" I offered Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the focus of the altar.

"Iuno, regina Deorum, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino
inferio esto [Iuno, queen of the Gods, may you be honoured by this
feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I offered
Iuno cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the focus of the altar.

"Minerva, sapientia aeterna, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte
vino inferio esto [Minerva, eternal wisdom, may you be honoured by
this feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble wine.]" I
offered Minerva cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the focus of the
altar.

"Salus, benefactrix Novae Romae, macte istace dape pollucenda esto,
macte vino inferio esto [Salus, benefactrix of Nova Roma, may you be
honoured by this feast offering, may you be honoured by the humble
wine.]" I offered Salus cakes, a leaf of laurel, and wine on the
focus of the altar.

"Quirine pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Quirinus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for
the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a
libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Mars pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Mars, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a libation from the
patera on the focus of the altar.

"Iane pater, uti te ture ommovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto [Father Ianus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for
the sake of this be honoured by this humble wine.]" I poured a
libation from the patera on the focus of the altar.

"Dea Vesta, custos ignis sacri, macte vino inferio esto [Goddess
Vesta, guardian of the sacred fire, be honoured by this humble
wine.]" I poured a libation from the patera on the focus of the
altar.

"Illicet. [It is over.]"

I profaned wine and cakes, and I partook of the epulum with Iuppiter
Optimus Maximus, Iuno, Minerva, and Salus, praying as I ate and
offering libations in my private devotions.

Piaculum

Since the caerimonia of the consular sacrifice has yet to be
recovered from literary or archaeological sources and we are unable
to sacrifice two white heifers of the appropriate type, I concluded
with a piaculum to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno, Miverva, and Salus.

"Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva et Salus, Di Immortales, si
quidquam tibi in hac caerimonia displicet, hoc vino inferio veniam
peto et vitium meum expio [Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno, Minerva,
and Salus, Immortal Gods, if anything in this ceremony is displeasing
to you, with this humble wine I ask forgiveness and expiate my
fault.]" I poured a libation on the focus of the altar.

Votum

Ego, G. Popillius Laenas, Consul Novae Romae, sacrificium Dis
Immortalibus, Iovi, Iunoni, Minervae et Saluti pro salute rei
publicae et senatus in Kalendis posteris Ianuarii voveo [I, G.
Popillius Laenas, Consul of Nova Roma, vow a sacrifice to the Immortal
Gods
Iuppiter, Iuno, Minerva, and Salus on the next Kalends of January]."

Both consuls hope and pray that the Dii Immortales will bless Nova
Roma and all her citizens in this Annus Novus. Happy New Year to all.

Fr. Apulus Casear
Consul

G. Popillius Laenas
Consul

Gaius Popillius Laenas Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit,

Ego, Gaius Popillius Laenas, hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me
defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse
sollemniter IVRO.
Ego, Gaius Popillius Laenas, officio Consulis Novae Romae accepto,
deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum,
et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.
Ego, Gaius Popillius Laenas, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam
defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne
quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.
Ego, Gaius Popillius Laenas, officiis muneris Consulis me quam optime
functurum esse praeterea IVRO.
Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus consulis una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.
________________________________________________________

I, Gaius Popillius Laenas (John Keith Sterne) do hereby solemnly
swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the
best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As Consul of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Popillius Laenas (John Keith
Sterne) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Gaius Popillius Laenas (John Keith Sterne) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Gaius Popillius Laenas (John Keith Sterne) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gaius Popillius Laenas (John Keith Sterne) further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Consul to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Consul and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Salvete Omnes,

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), hac re ipsa
decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae
Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis, officio quaestoris Novae Romae
accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus
culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum
esse IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam
defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne
quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis, officiis muneris quaestoris me quam
optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus quaestoris una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

Valete; Felicem novum annum !

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Provinciae Galliae Propraetor
Quaestor

I, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the People and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE and all the rights,privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

In Hispania Provincia, January 1st , year 2005 of present Era, in the year of the consulship of Fr. Apulus Caesar and C. Popilius Laenas.

-------------------------

Yo, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), por la presente juro solemnemente enaltecer el honor de Nova Roma y trabajar siempre por los
legítimos intereses del Senado y el Pueblo de Nova Roma.

Como un magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis actividades públicas, y perseguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida pública y privada.

Yo, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), juro mantener y defender la Religión Romana como Religión Estatal de Nova Roma, y nunca
actuar de manera que pueda resultar amenazada su condición de Religión del Estado.

Yo, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), juro proteger y defender la Constitución de Nova Roma.

Yo, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso), juro además cumplir con las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE, poniendo en ello toda mi capacidad y habilidades.

Por mi honor de ciudadano de Nova Roma, en presencia de los Dioses y Diosas del Pueblo Romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto la posición de PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE y todos los derechos, privilegios, obligaciones y responsabilidades que a ella corresponden.

En Hispania, a 1º de Enero de 2005 de la Era actual, Durante el Consulado de Fr. Apulus Caesar y C. Popilius Laenas.

-------------------------

Ego, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso) hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatusque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso) officio PROPRAETORE HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus me culturum/am, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso) Religioni Romanae me fauturum/am et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum/am esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS (David-Lloyd Pais Alonso) officiis muneris PROPRAETORE HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus PROPRAETORE HISPANIAE PROVINCIA NOVAE ROMAE una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus accipio.

Hispaniae, KAL·IAN· MMDCCLVIII·A·V·C, FR·APULE·CAESARI·C·POPILIO·LAENAE·CONSVLIBVS.


-------------------------

MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

EDICTVM PROPRÆTORICIVM XXVI (A M·ADRIANO·COMPLVTENSI I) DE CONSILIO PROPRÆTORIS ANNO MMDCCLVIII



MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS PROPRÆTOR HISPANIÆ OMNIBVS HISPANICIS CIVIBUS S·P·D·



EX HOC, SEQUENTES CIVES DESIGNATI SVNT MEMBRA CONSILII PROPRÆTORICII:



LOS SIGUIENTES CIUDADANOS SON NOMBRADOS MIEMBROS DEL CONSILIUM PROPRAETORIS:



THE FOLLOWING CITIZENS ARE HEREBY APPOINTED AS MEMBERS OF CONSILIUM PROPRAETORIS (PROVINCIAL ADMINISTRATION):







· LEGATVS INTERNIS : QVINTVS SALIX CANTABER VRANICVS

· LEGATVS EXTERNIS : PVBLIVS RVTILIVS BARDVLVS HADRIANVS

· SCRIBA PROPRÆTORIS AD LATINITATEM: GNÆVS ÆLIVS BÆTICVS NEBRISSENSIS

· SCRIBA PROPRÆTORIS ÆDILIS MILITARIVM: ENNIA DURMIA GEMINA

· SCRIBA PROPRÆTORIS CVRATOR RETIS: AVLVS MINICIVS IORDANNES POMPEIANVS

· SCRIBA PROPRÆTORIS SOCIORVM: GAIVS ADRIANVS SERGIVS

· SCRIBA PROPRÆTORIS AD CONVENTVM NOVÆ ROMÆ IN EUROPA: TIBERIVS MINICIVS CATVLVS



Este Edicto entra en vigor inmediatamente.

This edictum becomes effective immediately.

DATVM·SVB·MANV·MEA·KAL·IAN· MMDCCLVIII·A·V·C, FR·APULE·CAESARI·C·POPILIO·LAENAE·CONSVLIBVS



MARCVS ADRIANVS COMPLVTENSIS

PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ego, Lucius Arminius Faustus, hac re ipsa decus Novae
Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque
Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Arminius Faustus, officio praetoris Novae
Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae
vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes
Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse
IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Arminius Faustus, Religioni Romanae me
fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius
statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti
capiat IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Arminius Faustus officiis muneris
praetoris me quam optime functurum esse praeterea
IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque
populi Romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus
praetoris una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et
officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.


I, __enter legal and Roman name here____________do
hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova
Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the
people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I,
_______________________ swear to honor the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, ___________ swear to uphold and defend the Religio
Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear
never to act in a way that would threaten its status
as the State Religion.

---

I, Lucius Arminius Faustus swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Arminius Faustus further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
praetor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of praetor and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus PR

PS. When I was interpreter, I have made a translation
of the oath in Portuguese. I couldn´t find the link on
the Tabularium.






_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Instale o discador do Yahoo! agora. http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/ - Internet rápida e grátis

Salvete Omnes,

Ego, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson), hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae
me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse
sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson), officio Custos Novae Romae
accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus
culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse
IVRO.

Ego, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson), Religioni Romanae me fauturum
et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse,
ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson) officiis muneris Custos me quam
optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Custos una cum iuribus, privilegiis,
muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

***

I, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson) do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson),
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson), swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in
a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson) swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gallus Minucius Iovinus (Jonas Nilsson) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of custos to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of custos and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

Valete,

Gallus Minucius Iovinus

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
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Avete Quiritibus,

Ego, Marcus Iulius Perusianus (Milko Anselmi), hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Marcus Iulius Perusianus (Milko Anselmi), officio Praetoris Novae Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.
Ego, Marcus Iulius Perusianus (Milko Anselmi), Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Marcus Iulius Perusianus (Milko Anselmi), officiis muneris Praetoris me quam optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Marcus Iulius Perusianus (Milko Anselmi) una cum iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.






M·IVL·PERVSIANVS
-------------------------
Praetor Novae Romae
Vicarius Propraetoris Provinciae Italiae
Magister Academiae Italicae
---------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/m_iulius
http://italia.novaroma.org/signaromanorum
http://italia.novaroma.org/nri/index.htm
http://www.magnamaterproject.org/
---------------------------------------------
AEQVAM MEMENTO REBVS IN ARDVIS SERVARE MENTEM

---------------------------------
Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete, roman people of the quirites,

I was considering: there is no need that the oaths be on NR announce
list. Put the oath on main list, it is already enough.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus PR

Avete Plebes!

Ego, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana (Courtney Kirshner), hac re ipsa
decus Novae Romae me defensuram, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae
Romae acturam esse sollemniter IVRO

Ego, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana, officio Tribunae Plebis Novae
Romae accepta, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae
temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privatasque vita me
persecuturam esse IVRO

Ego, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana, Religo Romanae me fauturam et eam
defensuram, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturam esse,
ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana officiis muneris Tribunae Plebis
me quam optime functuram esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani,
et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Tribunae Plebis una cum
iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO

**********************************************************************
I Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana (Courtney Kirshner) do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma I, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana, swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtures in my public and private life.

I, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana, swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana, swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Tribune of the
Plebs to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Tribune of the Plebs and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


May Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno Sospita, Mars Ultor, Vesta,
Ceres and Diana preserve and protect Nova Roma and the Plebs!

OSD G. Equitius Cato.

Salvete omnes.

I just realized that I need to take the oath in English as well, so I
apologize for having to use another letter to do so.


I,Gaius Equitius Cato (Michael Cerrato), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma I, Gaius Equitius Cato, swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtures in my public and private life.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gaius Equitius Cato, further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of quaestor to the
best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of quaestor and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


Valete bene,

Cato

Salvete omnes.

Salve Gai Equiti Cato et omnes;

Thanks for the reminder Cato, I am right on your tail!

I, Quintus Lanius Paulinus(Michael Joseph Kelly), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma I, Quintus Lanius Paulinus, swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtures in my public and private life.

I, Quintus Lanius Paulinus, swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Quintus Lanius Paulinus, swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Quintus Lanius Paulinus, further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of quaestor to the
best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of quaestor and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


Valete bene,

Cato

Salve Vestinia Caprenia;

That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim that it is
the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being verbally
abusive.
I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it please,
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP

Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
<optia_vesta@y...> wrote:

> Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
>
> The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
> coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary, and
> suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?
>
> This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been used on
> this discussion for its entirety.
>
> Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal attack."
> Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
> Research into posts made on this topic suddenly equals "domestic
> violence."
>
> That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.
>
> That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't require the
> word "knee."
>
> Vestinia Caprenia
>
> --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the same

for

> > victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com

Salvete Quirites;
the discussion over women warriors and women in Roma Antiqua had
me looking over some old books of mine. We all speak from some
personal bias, no one is free of it. I certainly and happily admit
mine is a feminist one. But at the same time there are such things as
historical events and leges that do tell us what Roman women wanted:

the scandal of the Bacchanalia: well women did seem to want to go out
into the lucus of Stimula and participate in orgiastic rites.

the temple of Bona Dea; freely practiced abortion. Women of all
classes wanted to limit or completely prevent multiple births

Lex Volconia: established that women (other than Vestals & Flaminica
Dialis) could not inherit more than 200,000 asses -

Lex Oppia; established that women could not own more than 1/2 ounce
of gold, could not wear many coloured clothes or ride in a two-horse
vehicle within one mile of Rome.

These two leges were vigorously protested by women, here in an
extract from Livy's "History of Rome"
Women have entered the forum and protesting loudly, publicly and
visibly for the repeal of the Oppian Law.

Livy has M. Porcius Cato make this speech:

"What they really want is unrestricted freedom, or to speak the
truth, license, and if they win on this occasion what is there that
they will not attempt?" 34.2

"From the moment that they become your fellows they will become your
masters." 34.3

Not my words but Livy's ! So Roman women wanted freedom, money, sex,
and power.

Please anyone that is interested in Women and Rome please join us
over at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conventusmatronarum/

Maxima Valeria Messallina had the excellent idea of creating a
scholarly database; you are invited to contribute!
bene valete
Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ

Salvete Novae Romae!

I wish all of you the best in 2758 A.U.C.!

Valete,
Pompeia

Ego, Lucius Iulius Sulla, hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me
defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse
sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Iulius Sulla, officio Aedilis Curulis Novae Romae
accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae
temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me
persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Iulius Sulla, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam
defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse,
ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Lucius Iulius Sulla, officiis muneris Aedilis Curulis me quam
optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Aedilis Curulis una cum
iuribus, privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.


I, Lucius Iulius Sulla (Bernardo Cortese), do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honour of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I Lucius Iulius Sulla swear to honour
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I Lucius Iulius Sulla swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I Lucius Iulius Sulla swear to protect and defend the Constitution
of Nova Roma.

I Lucius Iulius Sulla further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Curule Aedile to the best of my
abilities.

On my honour as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favour,
do I accept the position of Curule Aedile and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

LEX CVRIATA DE IMPERIO

We, the Lictors of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma, recognize and accept
the results of the elections in the Comitia Centuriata for consules
and praetores, and the election in the Comitia Populi Tributa for
aediles curules. By this lex de imperio we confer imperium as defined
in the Lex Arminia Equitia de Imperio upon these magistrates.

Consules: Franciscus Apulus Caesar and Gaius Popillius Laenas

Praetores: Lucius Arminius Faustus and Marcus Iulius Perusianus

Aediles Curules: Lucius Iulius Sulla and Gaia Fabia Livia

This lex de imperio shall become effective on Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII
a.u.c. (1 Jan 2005 CE) and shall remain in effect until pridie Kal. Ian
MMDCCLVIII a.u.c. (31 Dec 2005 CE).

Given under our hands pridie Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVII a.u.c. (31 Dec 2004 CE)

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Gn. Salix Astur
Helena Galeria
Gaius Modius Athanasius
Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens
Decimus Iunius Silanus
T. Labienus Fortunatus
Marcus Arminius Maior
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus

Lictors of the Comitia Curiata

Gn. Equitius Marinus Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit:

Ego, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, hac re ipsa decus Novae Romae me
defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae Romae acturum esse
sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, officio Censoris Novae Romae accepto, deos
deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus culturum, et
virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam
defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum esse, ne
quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus officiis muneris Censoris me quam optime
functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Censoris una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

Datum sub manum mea, Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII ab urbe condita
Francisco Apulo Caesaris et Gaio Popillio Laenis Consulibus

=============================================================

I, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus (William C. Gawne) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus (William C.
Gawne) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus (William C. Gawne) swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus (William C. Gawne) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus (William C. Gawne) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Censor to the best
of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Censor and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Given under my hand this first day of January, 2758 a.u.c. in the
Consulship of Franciscus Apulus Caesar and Gaius Popillius Laenas

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Censor, Novae Romae

That Was my initial point...history is what it is-
dont put a spin on it. I was recently called a closet
racist by a co-worker who refuses CLEOPATRA isnt black
--- gn_iulius_caesar@...
<gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> I cannot think of a more sensible series of posts

than those from

> Vestinia Caprenia on this thread.
>
> One of the problems with how history and even

literature, such as

> Shakespeare for example, is taught and viewed today

in grade schools

> (having recently put two boys through this system I

am fully aware

> of the course content) is that it is entirely from a

modernistic

> perspective. Events and actions are interpreted

using modern

> motivations, principles, politics and explanations.

Often the most

> obvious reasons are ignored, as politically

incorrect. Sadly

> this "methodology" carries over into adult life.
>
> History is not about how things should have been or

might have been;

> history is about how things were, with no

ornamentation, trimming,

> pruning or censorship.
>
> Calls have been frequently made for a "raising of

the tone" on this

> list, vis a vis better debates on serious historical

topics. Posts

> have been made about how this list degenerates into

slam-dunking of

> political opponents. Those that call for higher

standards should not

> then engage in precisely the same sort of behaviour

they apparently

> abhor.
>
> If the facts of Roman history and life are so

unpleasant to some

> people when that history is discussed in a strictly

factual manner,

> then I would suggest that they either abandon their

involvement in

> an attempt to recreate Roman society, or, they

accept that history

> cannot be re-written or interpreted to suit modern

norms. History is

> simply history. What we do with that history here in

Nova Roma is a

> different matter.
>
> Congratulations Vestinia Caprenia for injecting a

heavy dose of

> common sense into this thread.
>
> Valete
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
>
>
>

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

As a former soldier I am disgusted when I read ROMAN
accounts of women and children put to the sword or
raped by apes in the arena. But I am judging them
TODAY.
--- mlcinnyc@... <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:

>
> G. Equitius Cato Vestiniae Capriniae S.P.D.
>
> Salve Vestinia Caprinia.
>
> Although I have taken no place in the discussion of

"women

> warriors", what you have said has struck a

particular chord, and I

> would like to respond.
>
> You are absolutely correct. To try to invest the

sensibilities of

> the 21st (or 20th, or 19th, &c.) mind upon the

ancients is

> ludicrous. The social, cultural, scientific,

political, and martial

> evolutions which have taken place since Rome stood

victorious upon

> the battlefield are too overwhelming, too

all-encompassing to try to

> mold them into the patterns with which we, as

products of the

> intervening centuries, are most comfortable. To try

to do so is a

> grievous affront to both the ancients and ourselves.
>
> You are also absolutely correct when you describe

the social context

> within which the ancients lived and moved; this

context, expanded

> and defined to its utmost degree in the High Middle

Ages as

> the "Great Chain of Being", assigned every living

human to a place

> within society, and the structure of that society

was seen as

> utterly dependent upon the idea that each man knew

his place and

> each place had its men --- from the Kingship of

Almighty God and His

> ordering of the ranks of the Hosts of heaven down to

its mirror

> image on earth, from emperor to slave. The great

peasant revolts of

> the mid 1240s was not a matter of the peasants

wanting to become

> lords; they merely wanted their place, the realm of

existence within

> which every part of their lives had its rationale,

to continue

> unchanged. They knew that society would collapse

unless it did.

> Sumptuary laws, the placing of diners above or below

the salt, the

> droit de seigneur; every action in society had

repercussions and

> meaning to those whose lives were lived within its

framework,

> whether we in the modern world would consider that

meaning

> acceptable or not.
>
> The greater question then, one which faces us in

Nova Roma, is how

> do we proceed to enliven the romanitas of the

ancients while still

> inextricably bound to the social and cultural mores

of the time and

> countries in which we have our being?
>
> There are of course extremes --- from the citizen

who rejects every

> trapping of the evolution of modern life since the

triumph of

> Christianity over paganism to the citizen who wants

to see Nova Roma

> become a U.S.-style democracy where individualism

and personal

> freedoms trump every other consideration.
>
> I believe that the vast majority of our citizens are

seeking to find

> a via media; we want to acknowledge the benefits of

mankind's

> intellectual achievements over the past 1700 years

yet use those

> very same powers to create a society, a res publica,

in which the

> great Virtues of the ancients are made even more

applicable, more

> resonant in our lives, lives which though having

been molded by

> modern sensibilities, still yearn for the eternal

visions of

> dignitas, nobilitas, gravitas ... glimmers of which

we have all seen

> in the lives and acts of our great Roman forebears.

We want to be

> like them. We want romanitas.
>
> There will come a day when I can stand togate on the

steps of the

> Met, framed by that stunning example of Roman

architecture, and

> speak; and those who are listening will not say,

"Look at the guy in

> the funny clothes", but rather, "This man speaks to

something

> important about who we were, who we are, and who we

can be." That

> day is when the vision of Nova Roma can begin to be

truly realized.

> But if WE do not believe it, how can we make others

believe?

>
> Everything we want to be, everything we strive to

accomplish: the

> reconstruction of the religio, the foundations of

Roman government,

> the recognization of the voice of the People --- all

of these depend

> upon our working together to create a NOVA Roma, one

not bound

> unthinkingly and unquestioned to the ancients, but

rather one in

> which the Virtues of the ancients are used as they

thems
=== Message Truncated ===


=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com

Thank you. I was starting to fear the forces of reason
were routed and the PC Police established a
beach-head.
--- optia_vesta@... <optia_vesta@...>
wrote:

> --- Maxima <violetphearsen@...> wrote:
> > What I am trying to say is
> > that regardless of what path a woman chooses, she

wants the freedom

> > to choose and not be limited because it's not what

most women would

> > like to do. And women have always wanted that

freedom, right

> > through the ages, from day one.
>
> No, they have **not** -- and this is the point.
>
> This ideology is a creation of the 20th Century. The

idea of having

> the freedom to live your life as you chose is a

creation of our

> (essentially) classless, industrialized society. The

men of those

> times didn't have the freedom to live their lives as

they wanted --

> and for many, it never crossed their minds that they

*had* a choice.

>
> I hear the rebuttal now: "But they always had a

choice, they knew

> that!"
>
> No, they did not. It was not part of the ancient

worldview -- you had

> a place and you were stuck there. Fortune might

bring you down in the

> world, but your birth determined your place and your

worth. A farmer

> was a farmer and a lord was a lord. You could be a

good farmer or a

> bad lord but you couldn't change your status, your

"place." The kind

> of mental elasticity which accompanies this kind of

social

> flexibility did not exist -- for men *or* women.
>
> Some individuals challenged the norms of their own

societies, but

> that's why they were written about -- they were

different. They were

> considered freakish. People who "violated" their

social roles, and

> the manner they were supposed to conduct themselves

in, in that

> social role, were mocked, derided and ridiculed.
>
> And, in Roman times, that meant satire. In print.

Apuleius. Martial.

> Juvenal. Petronius.
>
> We need to stop looking at the past with our 21st

century glasses on.

> It's twisting history. Warping the truth to a shape

which pleases us

> does no good to us -- anymore than warping the truth

to a shape which

> pleased our ancestors did them any good, either.
>
> Vestinia Caprenia
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage

less.

> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

I am a relative if not a complete nobody in Nova Roma
but LSD is a smart dude. Why toss away such an
excellent asset? Churchill was abrasive and had an
ugly dog
--- hucke@... <hucke@...> wrote:

>
> I was the principal author of the now-defunct nota

against Senator

> Lucius Sicinius Drusus, and the first part of the

settlement agreement

> (the list of conditions each side agreed to, not the

oath part).

> Permanent banishment was never my intent; even if

the original nota

> had remained in place, it probably wouldn't have

lasted more than a

> few months.
>
> He has been absent from the main list for several

months now, and

> absent from the Senate for the better part of a

year.

>
> Drusus is opinionated and abrasive, but he has

proven himself

> intelligent and educated, and there is much that he

can contribute.

>
> I believe he should be reinstated, fully. I would

vote against any

> efforts to remove his citizenship or Senatorial

status.

>
> Let us start this new year in a spirit of

forgiveness and concord.

>
> M. Octavius Germanicus, Consular.
>
>
>

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



__________________________________________________
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P. Minius Albucius omnibus s.d.,

S.V.G.E.R.

You will find here beneth my oath for the office of Tribune of the
Plebs.

Happy new year to all.


Optime valete !


Scr. Cadomago, civ. Viducassium, Gallia, Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba Propraetoris Galliae
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html






TRIBUNUM P. MINIUM ALBUCIUM IUSIURANDUM


Pro lege Iunia 19 october 2752 a.u.c. de iusiurando,
Pro Constitutione Novae Romae maxime capitibus IV.A.7.h ac IV.A.9,
Pro edicto Tribuni Plebis Fr. Apuli Caesaris a.d. IV Kal. Ian. 2758
a.u.c. de pronuntiatione eventorum suffragiorum comitii tributae
plebis,


Ego, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), hac re ipsa
decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque
Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter iuro.

Ego, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), officio Tribuni
plebis Novae Romae accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae
publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque
vita me persecuturum esse iuro.

Ego, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), Religioni
Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum
publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat iuro.

Ego, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), officiis muneris
Tribuni plebis me quam optime functurum esse praeterea iuro.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Tribuni plebis una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus accipio.



PRESTATION DE SERMENT

Vu la loi Iunia du 19 octobre 2752 a.u.c. sur la prestation de
serment,
Vu la Constitution de Nova Roma et notamment ses articles IV.A.7.h
et IV.A.9,
Vu l'édit du Tribun de la Plèbe Fr. Apulus Caesar du 29 décembre
2005 sur la proclamation des résultats des élections des comices
tributes de la Plèbe,


Moi, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), jure
solennellement par la présente de soutenir l'honneur de Nova Roma en
toutes circonstances au mieux des intérêts du peuple et du Sénat de
Nova Roma.

En tant que Tribun de la Plèbe de Nova Roma, moi, Publius Minius
Albucius (Christophe Puissant), jure d'honorer les Dieux et Déesses
de Rome dans mes relations publiques et de poursuivre les Vertus
Romaines dans ma vie publique et privée.

Moi, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), jure de soutenir
et défendre la Religio Romana comme la Religion d'Etat de Nova Roma
et jure de ne jamais agir d'une manière qui menace son statut de
Religion d'Etat.

Moi, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), jure de protéger
et de défendre la Constitution de Nova Roma.

Moi, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), jure de plus de
remplir au mieux de mes capacités les obligations et responsabilités
de la fonction de Tribun de la Plèbe.

Sur mon honneur en tant que citoyen de Nova Roma, en présence des
Dieux et Déesses du peuple romain et par leur faveur et leur bon
vouloir, j'accepte formellement d'assurer la fonction de Tribun de
la Plèbe et tous les droits, privilèges, obligations et
responsabilités qui s'y rattachent.


OATH

Whereas this oath is issued for purposes according to the rules and
purposes of :
- Oath Iunia act 19 october 2752 a.u.c.,
- Constitution of Nova Roma, particularly its articles IV.A.7.h and
IV.A.9,
- Tribune of the Plebs Fr. Apulus Caesar Edict 29 december 2005
proclaming the results of
comitia tributa plebis elections.


I, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), do hereby solemnly
swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the
best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a Tribune of the Plebs of Nova Roma, I, Publius Minius Albucius
(Christophe Puissant), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome
in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public
and private life.

I, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), swear to uphold
and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), swear to protect
and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Publius Minius Albucius (Christophe Puissant), further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Tribune of the Plebs to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Tribune of the Plebs and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

P. Minius Albucius Sen. Q. Fabio Maximo omnibusque s.d.,


Q Fabius Maximus wrote:

> (..) I have to applaud your analysis.(..) However, I hasten to
> point out you over look several key points in your statements. (..)

Thanks for your deep contribution and the historical point that you
made. I have learnt from you in it and I would like everyone to
report to your message. That is exactly the kind of thoughts that
seemed to me useful to share with you all, after C. Minucius
message. I hope that other citizens could participate to this debate
and help Hon. C. Minucius have - even if too late ? - some
beginnings of answers to the questions he asked.

Scr. Cadomago, civ. Viducassium, Gallia, Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.

Publius Minius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba Propraetoris Galliae
http://geocities.com/publiusalbucius/great_outdoors.html

And attempting to equate an email retort, however cutting, to
domestic violence is spurious logic at best -- and *that* was the
point.

Do check your allegories at the door.


--- Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

> Salve Vestinia Caprenia;
> That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim that it
> is the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being verbally
> abusive.
> I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it
> please,
> Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
>
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> caput Officina Iuriis
> et Investigatio CFQ
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
> <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
> >
> > The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
> > coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary, and
> > suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?
> >
> > This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been used on
> > this discussion for its entirety.
> >
> > Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal attack."
> > Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
> > Research into posts made on this topic suddenly equals "domestic
> > violence."
> >
> > That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.
> >
> > That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't require
> the
> > word "knee."
> >
> > Vestinia Caprenia
> >
> > --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the same
> for
> > > victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> > http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>

=====
Optia Vestinia Aurelia, called Vesta
Defensatrix Beldenia, Sgt. of Adiantum
Squire to Sir Ambrose Mavrorothakis
Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut
SCAdian, Filker, Bujold junkie and part-time pusher
Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

Salve Vesta Caprenia;
abusive behavior takes many forms consisting of mental & physical
cruelty. It is a common theme for the abuser to blame the victim 'you
made me do it'.
Drusus's defenders such as Q. Fabius Maximus and D. Iunius
Palladius Invictus have made such statements, that it is the hapless
cives fault. Drusus as far as I know never apologizes nor is he the
least sorry. No one deserves verbal abuse.

My logic is quite linear and clear.

Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
<optia_vesta@y...> wrote:

> And attempting to equate an email retort, however cutting, to
> domestic violence is spurious logic at best -- and *that* was the
> point.
>
> Do check your allegories at the door.
>
>
> --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Vestinia Caprenia;
> > That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim that it
> > is the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being verbally
> > abusive.
> > I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it
> > please,
> > Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
> >
> > Propraetrix Hiberniae
> > caput Officina Iuriis
> > et Investigatio CFQ
> >
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
> > <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > > Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
> > >
> > > The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
> > > coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary, and
> > > suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?
> > >
> > > This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been used

on

> > > this discussion for its entirety.
> > >
> > > Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal

attack."

> > > Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
> > > Research into posts made on this topic suddenly equals "domestic
> > > violence."
> > >
> > > That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.
> > >
> > > That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't require
> > the
> > > word "knee."
> > >
> > > Vestinia Caprenia
> > >
> > > --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > > sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the

same

> > for
> > > > victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> > > http://my.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Optia Vestinia Aurelia, called Vesta
> Defensatrix Beldenia, Sgt. of Adiantum
> Squire to Sir Ambrose Mavrorothakis
> Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut
> SCAdian, Filker, Bujold junkie and part-time pusher
> Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

Salvete omnes.

I am reminded of the early days of the 'net. My wife informed me
that a woman on a chat line claimed she had been raped on-line.

My wife was aghast that someone would take such a term and apply it
to a medium where one has the ultimate control of the "off" button,
or getting up and walking away.

I have seen rape and domestic abuse victims all too frequently
during my career as a police officer. Please do not abuse that term
and devalue what women really suffered by applying it for political
advantage to this medium. They simply are not the same
circumstances. There are too many women (and even in thuis day and
age men) dead in their graves because they did not have the ability
to walk away.

We devalue their memories and suffering by using terms like that in
these circumstances.

Valete
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> Salve Vesta Caprenia;
> abusive behavior takes many forms consisting of mental &
physical
> cruelty. It is a common theme for the abuser to blame the
victim 'you
> made me do it'.
> Drusus's defenders such as Q. Fabius Maximus and D. Iunius
> Palladius Invictus have made such statements, that it is the
hapless
> cives fault. Drusus as far as I know never apologizes nor is he
the
> least sorry. No one deserves verbal abuse.
>
> My logic is quite linear and clear.
>
> Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
> Propraetrix Hiberniae
> caput Officina Iuriis
> et Investigatio CFQ
>
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
> <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > And attempting to equate an email retort, however cutting, to
> > domestic violence is spurious logic at best -- and *that* was the
> > point.
> >
> > Do check your allegories at the door.
> >
> >
> > --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > Salve Vestinia Caprenia;
> > > That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim
that it
> > > is the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being
verbally
> > > abusive.
> > > I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it
> > > please,
> > > Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
> > >
> > > Propraetrix Hiberniae
> > > caput Officina Iuriis
> > > et Investigatio CFQ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
> > > <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > > > Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
> > > >
> > > > The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
> > > > coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary,
and
> > > > suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?
> > > >
> > > > This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been
used
> on
> > > > this discussion for its entirety.
> > > >
> > > > Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal
> attack."
> > > > Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
> > > > Research into posts made on this topic suddenly
equals "domestic
> > > > violence."
> > > >
> > > > That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.
> > > >
> > > > That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't
require
> > > the
> > > > word "knee."
> > > >
> > > > Vestinia Caprenia
> > > >
> > > > --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > > > sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the
> same
> > > for
> > > > > victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> > > > http://my.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Optia Vestinia Aurelia, called Vesta
> > Defensatrix Beldenia, Sgt. of Adiantum
> > Squire to Sir Ambrose Mavrorothakis
> > Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut
> > SCAdian, Filker, Bujold junkie and part-time pusher
> > Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
> > http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

there is a league of difference between someone who engages inthe abuse of a partner and someone who is antagonized into giving a verbal response. If you push someone's buttons and they give you a piece of their mind and you can't take it you need thicker skin.

Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
Salve Vesta Caprenia;
abusive behavior takes many forms consisting of mental & physical
cruelty. It is a common theme for the abuser to blame the victim 'you
made me do it'.
Drusus's defenders such as Q. Fabius Maximus and D. Iunius
Palladius Invictus have made such statements, that it is the hapless
cives fault. Drusus as far as I know never apologizes nor is he the
least sorry. No one deserves verbal abuse.

My logic is quite linear and clear.

Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
<optia_vesta@y...> wrote:

> And attempting to equate an email retort, however cutting, to
> domestic violence is spurious logic at best -- and *that* was the
> point.
>
> Do check your allegories at the door.
>
>
> --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Vestinia Caprenia;
> > That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim that it
> > is the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being verbally
> > abusive.
> > I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it
> > please,
> > Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
> >
> > Propraetrix Hiberniae
> > caput Officina Iuriis
> > et Investigatio CFQ
> >
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
> > <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > > Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
> > >
> > > The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
> > > coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary, and
> > > suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?
> > >
> > > This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been used

on

> > > this discussion for its entirety.
> > >
> > > Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal

attack."

> > > Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
> > > Research into posts made on this topic suddenly equals "domestic
> > > violence."
> > >
> > > That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.
> > >
> > > That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't require
> > the
> > > word "knee."
> > >
> > > Vestinia Caprenia
> > >
> > > --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > > sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the

same

> > for
> > > > victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> > > http://my.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Optia Vestinia Aurelia, called Vesta
> Defensatrix Beldenia, Sgt. of Adiantum
> Squire to Sir Ambrose Mavrorothakis
> Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut
> SCAdian, Filker, Bujold junkie and part-time pusher
> Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, G.I.Caesar: You are correct.
Use (or abuse) of a term for the sake of hyperbole doesn't elevate
one's argument, it just cheapens the term and takes strength away from
it's real application.

Vale
- Troianus

On Jan 1, 2005, at 9:21 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:

>
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> I am reminded of the early days of the 'net. My wife informed me
> that a woman on a chat line claimed she had been raped on-line.
>
> My wife was aghast that someone would take such a term and apply it
> to a medium where one has the ultimate control of the "off" button,
> or getting up and walking away.
>
> I have seen rape and domestic abuse victims all too frequently
> during my career as a police officer. Please do not abuse that term
> and devalue what women really suffered by applying it for political
> advantage to this medium. They simply are not the same
> circumstances. There are too many women (and even in thuis day and
> age men) dead in their graves because they did not have the ability
> to walk away.
>
> We devalue their memories and suffering by using terms like that in
> these circumstances.
>
> Valete
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>>
>> Salve Vesta Caprenia;
>> abusive behavior takes many forms consisting of mental &
> physical
>> cruelty. It is a common theme for the abuser to blame the
> victim 'you
>> made me do it'.
>> Drusus's defenders such as Q. Fabius Maximus and D. Iunius
>> Palladius Invictus have made such statements, that it is the
> hapless
>> cives fault. Drusus as far as I know never apologizes nor is he
> the
>> least sorry. No one deserves verbal abuse.
>>
>> My logic is quite linear and clear.
>>
>> Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
>> Propraetrix Hiberniae
>> caput Officina Iuriis
>> et Investigatio CFQ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
>> <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
>>> And attempting to equate an email retort, however cutting, to
>>> domestic violence is spurious logic at best -- and *that* was the
>>> point.
>>>
>>> Do check your allegories at the door.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>>>> Salve Vestinia Caprenia;
>>>> That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim
> that it
>>>> is the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being
> verbally
>>>> abusive.
>>>> I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it
>>>> please,
>>>> Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
>>>>
>>>> Propraetrix Hiberniae
>>>> caput Officina Iuriis
>>>> et Investigatio CFQ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called Vesta"
>>>> <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
>>>>> Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
>>>>>
>>>>> The discussion is about Cornelianus being able to construct a
>>>>> coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem commentary,
> and
>>>>> suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes a parable?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that has been
> used
>> on
>>>>> this discussion for its entirety.
>>>>>
>>>>> Advocation of further research suddenly equals "personal
>> attack."
>>>>> Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals "sexism."
>>>>> Research into posts made on this topic suddenly
> equals "domestic
>>>>> violence."
>>>>>
>>>>> That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk feminism.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It doesn't
> require
>>>> the
>>>>> word "knee."
>>>>>
>>>>> Vestinia Caprenia
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>>>>>> sorry to say that the excuse that you gave below is the
>> same
>>>> for
>>>>>> victims of domestic violence "you goaded me into it"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>>>> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
>>>>> http://my.yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =====
>>> Optia Vestinia Aurelia, called Vesta
>>> Defensatrix Beldenia, Sgt. of Adiantum
>>> Squire to Sir Ambrose Mavrorothakis
>>> Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut
>>> SCAdian, Filker, Bujold junkie and part-time pusher
>>> Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>> Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
>>> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve GJC Cornelianus -

On Jan 1, 2005, at 9:25 PM, Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus wrote:

> there is a league of difference between someone who engages inthe
> abuse of a partner and someone who is antagonized into giving a verbal
> response. If you push someone's buttons and they give you a piece of
> their mind and you can't take it you need thicker skin.
>
Oh, come now! You are stating that Drusus doesn't need a thicker skin
- he can lose his cool and let his "goaders" have a piece of his mind -
yet the recipient of his retaliation does need thicker skin!

Hasn't it occurred to you that NO ONE should be required to have a
"thicker skin", that bad behaviour simply should not be tolerated?

Most e-mail Lists simply do not tolerate ad hominem attacks: If you go
after the person instead of their ideas then you are warned and then
cut off, period. This is as it should be: E-mail Lists are for *all*
members, not just for some special breed of human with elephantine
skin.

Vale
- Troianus

Avete!
Thank you, Julilla Sempronia, Mater and Soror, for
your most gracious introduction. May Minerva grant
your hope that I will become a useful citizen.
Thanks also to Quintus Lanius Paulinus for your kind
welcome and to Gnaeus Equitius Marinus for your
extremely gratifying remarks.
Let Iuppiter, Iuno, and Minerva lead this republic to
amity, prosperity, and wisdom in the coming year,
through the diligent universal exercise of Comitas and
Severitas.
Valete!
Salvia Sempronia Graccha



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In a message dated 1/1/05 12:07:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
praefectus2324@... writes:

As a former soldier I am disgusted when I read ROMAN
accounts of women and children put to the sword or
raped by apes in the arena. But I am judging them
TODAY.



The Romans called that selective terror. It was not just used by them.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Troianus.

Thank you for your comments.

I agree with you and I also agree with Cornelianus. I think that
Cornelianus was trying to focus on situations where some one set out
to push those buttons he mentions knowing full well what the result
would be. I agree with you that this list would be best served by
trying, this year, to focus on the ideas rather than the
personalities.

Usually I don't find that many of the self-improvement courses and
effective communication courses, or those on unacceptable behaviour,
that are offered in the workplace are worth the exorbitant amount of
money external presenters charge. However based on one of those my
worplace tries to promote what it refers to as:

The Five Basic Principles.

1. Focus on the situation, issue, or behaviour, not on the person.

2. Maintain the self-confidence and self-esteem of others.

3. Maintain constructive relationships.

4. Take the initiative to make things better

5. Lead by example.

Not a bad start for this list - for all of us to try to adhere to as
best as we can. There may be "slippage" but if we can all commit to
trying to stay on track with these simple principles, we may find
that this year is more productive.

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
Troianus <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:

Salvete omnes,

Like I said before, I have had doubts and worries when the list got
out of hand and I have considered sending newbies I found directly
to my provincial list or the various tamer sodalistas to ensure they
would not leave in disgust or frustration. I say this first premise
now so I will not appear to be hypocritical but I am beginning to
have second thoughts.

However, many of us including me, seem to be just like the two old
critics that sat in the upper opera loft on the Muppet show. Howled
and growled they did, made nasty comments about the poor
preformances but hey, they were always back every week and could
never get enough of the show they detested so much and always
enjoyed getting their two cents worth of negative comments and
jokes.I guess it is like enjoying the soaps or Jerry Springer. We
all say the conversations and intelligence levels are for mental
midgets yet when I see some nasty wife swapping neo-nazi
crossdresser come on spouting his mouth off I give him an ear and
have a laugh. I'll wager the list can sometimes be amusing in this
way. Our version of bread and circuses don't you think?

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus











--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
Troianus <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:

> Salve GJC Cornelianus -
> On Jan 1, 2005, at 9:25 PM, Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus wrote:
>
> > there is a league of difference between someone who engages

inthe

> > abuse of a partner and someone who is antagonized into giving a

verbal

> > response. If you push someone's buttons and they give you a

piece of

> > their mind and you can't take it you need thicker skin.
> >
> Oh, come now! You are stating that Drusus doesn't need a thicker

skin

> - he can lose his cool and let his "goaders" have a piece of his

mind -

> yet the recipient of his retaliation does need thicker skin!
>
> Hasn't it occurred to you that NO ONE should be required to have a
> "thicker skin", that bad behaviour simply should not be tolerated?
>
> Most e-mail Lists simply do not tolerate ad hominem attacks: If

you go

> after the person instead of their ideas then you are warned and

then

> cut off, period. This is as it should be: E-mail Lists are for

*all*

> members, not just for some special breed of human with elephantine
> skin.
>
> Vale
> - Troianus

"Most e-mail Lists simply do not tolerate ad hominem attacks: If you go after the person instead of their ideas then you are warned and then cut off, period."

--Kind of like calling people "sexist" amongst other things? There seems to be a double standard here in saying who has conducted themselves appropriately. Perhaps some should do some self-reflecting on their own behavior (not necessarily you) before going after others. I'm not even going to waste my time digging through the archives for examples of others who have conducted themselves inappropriately.

But you also missed the point. Regardless of how you label the actions of Drusus they certainly do not amount to anything on par with domestic violence.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes.

Ego, Quintus Bianchius Rufinus (Bryan Thomas Reif), hac re ipsa
decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque Novae
Romae acturum esse sollemniter IVRO.

Ego, Quintus Bianchius Rufinus, officio quaestoris Novae Romae
accepto, deos deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae publicae temporibus
culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque vita me
persecuturum esse IVRO.

Ego, Quintus Bianchius Rufinus, Religioni Romanae me fauturum et eam
defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum publicum me acturum
esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat IVRO.

Ego, Quintus Bianchius Rufinus officiis muneris quaestoris me quam
optime functurum esse praeterea IVRO.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani,
et voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus quaestoris una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus ACCIPIO.

Valete bene, omnes, et bona Fortuna in Novuum Annum!

Quintus Bianchius Rufinus

I, G. Iulius Scaurus, lictor of the Comita Curiata of Nova Roma,
recognize and accept
the election of Franciscus Apulus Caesar and Gaius Popillius Laenas in
the Comitia Centuriata as consules and Lucius Arminius Faustus and
Marcus Iulius Perusianus as praetores, and the election in the Comitia
Populi Tributa of Lucius Iulius Sulla and Gaia Fabia Livia as aediles
curules and approve the conveyance of imperium to them forthwith.

Given on Kal. Ian. MMDCCLVII a.u.c.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Lictor, Pontifex et Flamen Quirinalis

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

> "Most e-mail Lists simply do not tolerate ad hominem attacks: If you go after the person >instead of their ideas then you are warned and then cut off, period."

Mos email lists simply don't try to emulate the Roman republic. The
fundamental problem with Nova Roma is that too many people want all
the fancy trappings of Romanitas but are unwilling to accept the fact
that there were aspects of Roman culture which rub against modern
sensibilities, but which are impeccably Roman and which we are obliged
to accept if we wish to remain faithful to the historical reality of
Roma antiqua. Being an irritating, abusive, even virulent son of a
bitch in one's rhetoric may offend modern people, but it was well
within the acceptable range of discourse in the political life of the
Roman Republic. I am not prepared to curtail what was regarded as a
fundamental freedom by Roman republican political culture just because
it makes some moderns uncomfortable. Any number of important figures
of Roman republican politics -- L. Iunius Brutus, Appius Claudius, C.
Iulius Iullus. Q. Fabius Maximus, P. Cornelius Scipio, the Gracchi,
Cato the Elder, L. Cornelius Sulla, M. Tuilius Cicero, Cato the
Younger, P. Clodius Pulcher, C. Iulius Caesar, to take a disparate
sample -- are reported to have had more than the occasional salty and
ad hominem rhetorical episode, and I doubt that any of them would last
a day on the NR main list if the Victorian nettiquette crowd had their
way. I refuse to concede this "best of Rome" nonsense -- it reeks of
the modernist snobbery of the SCA's "the middle agews as they should
have been." I'd rather have Rome as it actually was. And that means
accepting that political discourse could become very hot indeed.

Valete.

Scaurus

Ave! Ave! Well said...watch your back for the PC
POLICE.
--- gregory.rose@... <gregory.rose@...>
wrote:

> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> > "Most e-mail Lists simply do not tolerate ad

hominem attacks: If you go after the person >instead
of their ideas then you are warned and then cut off,
period."

>
> Mos email lists simply don't try to emulate the

Roman republic. The

> fundamental problem with Nova Roma is that too many

people want all

> the fancy trappings of Romanitas but are unwilling

to accept the fact

> that there were aspects of Roman culture which rub

against modern

> sensibilities, but which are impeccably Roman and

which we are obliged

> to accept if we wish to remain faithful to the

historical reality of

> Roma antiqua. Being an irritating, abusive, even

virulent son of a

> bitch in one's rhetoric may offend modern people,

but it was well

> within the acceptable range of discourse in the

political life of the

> Roman Republic. I am not prepared to curtail what

was regarded as a

> fundamental freedom by Roman republican political

culture just because

> it makes some moderns uncomfortable. Any number of

important figures

> of Roman republican politics -- L. Iunius Brutus,

Appius Claudius, C.

> Iulius Iullus. Q. Fabius Maximus, P. Cornelius

Scipio, the Gracchi,

> Cato the Elder, L. Cornelius Sulla, M. Tuilius

Cicero, Cato the

> Younger, P. Clodius Pulcher, C. Iulius Caesar, to

take a disparate

> sample -- are reported to have had more than the

occasional salty and

> ad hominem rhetorical episode, and I doubt that any

of them would last

> a day on the NR main list if the Victorian

nettiquette crowd had their

> way. I refuse to concede this "best of Rome"

nonsense -- it reeks of

> the modernist snobbery of the SCA's "the middle

agews as they should

> have been." I'd rather have Rome as it actually

was. And that means

> accepting that political discourse could become very

hot indeed.

>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus

=====
S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





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Salve Maior,

Would you please leave me out of your flailing attempt to justify your
argument? You buzz around NR so quickly--like a gnat--that you don't
bother to read who you are responding to. The message you reference
was not a response to me, it was to my gensmate, Silanus (and you
intentionally misread his message it appears).

I haven't said a word about the Drusus issue, since in essence he
withdrew from Nova Roma many months ago. All this bandwidth about him
and he doesn't know about it or care.

Kind of fitting though that you try to take on the mantle of the
Drusus Witchhunter since you are no different from he. At every turn
you attempt to bully, try to intimidate, are generally rude and
obnoxious and do your best to harrangue those with the slightest
disagreement with you. You lack Drusus' sense of style and delivery
but do spell better. P'raps we should call you Drusa, an embarassment
to your friends and a gift to your opponents.

Cheers,

Palladius (not Silanus)


Both of your messages referring to me clipped below:

>Salve Vestinia Caprenia;

>That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim that it is
>the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being verbally
>abusive.
>I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it please,
>Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> Salve Vesta Caprenia;
> abusive behavior takes many forms consisting of mental & physical
> cruelty. It is a common theme for the abuser to blame the
victim 'you
> made me do it'.
> Drusus's defenders such as Q. Fabius Maximus and D. Iunius
> Palladius Invictus have made such statements, that it is the
hapless
> cives fault. Drusus as far as I know never apologizes nor is he the
> least sorry. No one deserves verbal abuse.
>
> My logic is quite linear and clear.
------------
;-)

That'll be the day.

-------------
>Salve Vestinia Caprenia;

>That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius Palladius's claim that it is
>the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into being verbally
>abusive.
>I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all, do check it please,
>Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpää) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko
Sillanpää) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpää) swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never
to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpää) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpää) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Tribunus Plebis
to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Tribunus Plebis and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

G. Equitius Cato G. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve Iulius Scaurus et salvete omnes.

I must agree with Iulius Scaurus on this point, to some extent. We
are bound by the guidelines set out by Yahoo! until such time as we
create our own Forum independent of any outside control; however,
ancient Rome was not some kind of blurry-focussed Hollywood set-
piece in which everyone moved around slowly and spoke softly,
conscious of the brilliant light of history being shined upon them.
Yes, the toga is a physical restraint against hopping up and down
and waving your arms around to convey emotion --- which is why the
use of strong and often biting language became such an "art".
Orators used every rhetorical trick possible to whip up the crowds
in the Forum in support of their own particular ideas; huge
arguments, riots, even murder took place in the Forum and its
environs during political debate --- even whole buildings were
destroyed during public upheavals: the Curia Cornelia was burned
down under the riots during the funeral of P. Clodius Pulcher in 52
B.C.

Elections were even cancelled and the use of the tribunes for
factional politics occurred, even to the point of leaving the City
without leadership:

"So they [the patricians] won over some of the tribunes to interpose
their veto against these proposals. When they saw the tribes
summoned by Licinius and Sextius to give their votes, these men,
surrounded by a bodyguard of patricians, refused to allow either the
reading of the bills or any other procedure which the plebs usually
adopted when they came to vote. For many weeks the Assembly was
regularly summoned without any business being done, and the bills
were looked upon as dead. "Very good," said Sextius, "since it is
your pleasure that the veto shall possess so much power, we will use
this same weapon for the protection of the plebs. Come then,
patricians, give notice of an Assembly for the election of consular
tribunes, I will take care that the word which our colleagues are
now uttering in concert to your great delight, the word 'I FORBID,'
shall not give you much pleasure." These were not idle threats. No
elections were held beyond those of the tribunes and aediles of the
plebs. Licinius and Sextius, when re-elected, would not allow any
curule magistrates to be appointed, and as the plebs constantly re-
elected them, and as they constantly stopped the election of
consular tribunes, this dearth of magistrates lasted in the City for
five years." (Livy, Hist. of Rome, 6.35)


"The Assembly met and the consul laid the matter before them. Not
even then was Flaccus moved from his determination. He expressed his
gratitude to the Roman People for their zealous support and their
desire to make him praetor as often as they had the opportunity of
expressing their desire. He had no intention of forgoing the zealous
support which his fellow-citizens accorded him. The fixed
determination thus expressed kindled the popular enthusiasm to such
an extent that he would undoubtedly have become praetor, had the
consul been willing to accept votes for him. There was a heated
dispute amongst the tribunes themselves and between them and the
consul, until at a meeting of the senate convened by the consul it
was decreed that whereas the obstinacy of Q. Fulvius and the
mischief of party strife prevented the election from being conducted
according to law..." (op. cit., 39.39)

M. Porcius Cato himself is described this way:

"There are a great number of speeches made in his own defence and in
defence of others, and also against others, for he harassed his
opponents equally whether he was prosecuting or defending. Personal
quarrels - far too many of them - kept him busy, and he himself took
care to keep them alive, so that it would be difficult to say who
displayed the greater energy, the nobility in trying to suppress
him, or he in worrying the nobility. He was undoubtedly a man of a
rough temper and a bitter and unbridled tongue, absolute master of
his passions, of inflexible integrity, and indifferent alike to
wealth and popularity." (op. cit., 39.40)

M Manlius Capitolinus was so disruptive that in order to stop his
appeal to the crowds a Dictator was appointed:

"With his head full of these notions and being unfortunately a man
of headstrong and passionate nature, he found that his influence was
not so powerful with the patricians as he thought it ought to be, so
he went over to the plebs - the first patrician to do so - and
adopted the political methods of their magistrates. He abused the
senate and courted the populace and, impelled by the breeze of
popular favour more than by conviction or judgment, preferred
notoriety to respectability...It was, however, the revolutionary
designs of Manlius that mainly decided the senate to nominate a
Dictator. A. Cornelius Cossus was nominated" (op. cit., 6.11)

So, time and time again, we see the use of demagoguery and oratory
to whip up crowds, halt business, freeze the actions of government,
even prevent magistracies from being filled; and the ancients were
not shy about calling each other out by name.

So. How do we balance Yahoo!'s prescriptions and the practices of
the ancients? Something we need to consider.

Vale et valete,

Cato

Salve Gnaeus Iulius Caesar -

On Jan 1, 2005, at 11:28 PM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:
> Salve Troianus.
>
> Thank you for your comments.

You're welcome.
>
> I agree with you and I also agree with Cornelianus. I think that
> Cornelianus was trying to focus on situations where some one set out
> to push those buttons he mentions knowing full well what the result
> would be.

Oh, I know - some people use Value Laden Terms the way marksmen use
bullets: To devastating effect.
They push buttons, then act surprised at the nuclear explosion.

> I agree with you that this list would be best served by
> trying, this year, to focus on the ideas rather than the personalities.
>
I hope we can succeed. It will take frequent gentle reminders.

> Usually I don't find that many of the self-improvement courses and
> effective communication courses, or those on unacceptable behaviour,
> that are offered in the workplace are worth the exorbitant amount of
> money external presenters charge.

No, most of them are just Lawsuit Prevention: "It isn't the Company's
fault - we even paid for a seminar to educate our employees not to do
that!"

> However based on one of those my worplace tries to promote what it
> refers to as:
> The Five Basic Principles.
>
> 1. Focus on the situation, issue, or behaviour, not on the person.
> 2. Maintain the self-confidence and self-esteem of others.
> 3. Maintain constructive relationships.
> 4. Take the initiative to make things better
> 5. Lead by example.

That's a good list.
>
> Not a bad start for this list - for all of us to try to adhere to as
> best as we can. There may be "slippage" but if we can all commit to
> trying to stay on track with these simple principles, we may find
> that this year is more productive.
>
Let us all hope so!

> Vale
> Caesar
>
Vale bene
- Troianus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
> Troianus <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve Q. Lanius Paulinus -

The Muppets, no problem - but the moment this List degenerates to the
level of Jerry Springer I'm going to become very concerned! ;-)

Vale
- Troianus
On Jan 1, 2005, at 11:34 PM, Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
wrote:

>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Like I said before, I have had doubts and worries when the list got
> out of hand and I have considered sending newbies I found directly
> to my provincial list or the various tamer sodalistas to ensure they
> would not leave in disgust or frustration. I say this first premise
> now so I will not appear to be hypocritical but I am beginning to
> have second thoughts.
>
> However, many of us including me, seem to be just like the two old
> critics that sat in the upper opera loft on the Muppet show. Howled
> and growled they did, made nasty comments about the poor
> preformances but hey, they were always back every week and could
> never get enough of the show they detested so much and always
> enjoyed getting their two cents worth of negative comments and
> jokes.I guess it is like enjoying the soaps or Jerry Springer. We
> all say the conversations and intelligence levels are for mental
> midgets yet when I see some nasty wife swapping neo-nazi
> crossdresser come on spouting his mouth off I give him an ear and
> have a laugh. I'll wager the list can sometimes be amusing in this
> way. Our version of bread and circuses don't you think?
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
> Troianus <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:
>> Salve GJC Cornelianus -
>> On Jan 1, 2005, at 9:25 PM, Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus wrote:
>>
>>> there is a league of difference between someone who engages
> inthe
>>> abuse of a partner and someone who is antagonized into giving a
> verbal
>>> response. If you push someone's buttons and they give you a
> piece of
>>> their mind and you can't take it you need thicker skin.
>>>
>> Oh, come now! You are stating that Drusus doesn't need a thicker
> skin
>> - he can lose his cool and let his "goaders" have a piece of his
> mind -
>> yet the recipient of his retaliation does need thicker skin!
>>
>> Hasn't it occurred to you that NO ONE should be required to have a
>> "thicker skin", that bad behaviour simply should not be tolerated?
>>
>> Most e-mail Lists simply do not tolerate ad hominem attacks: If
> you go
>> after the person instead of their ideas then you are warned and
> then
>> cut off, period. This is as it should be: E-mail Lists are for
> *all*
>> members, not just for some special breed of human with elephantine
>> skin.
>>
>> Vale
>> - Troianus
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve GJC Cornelianus -

On Jan 1, 2005, at 11:35 PM, Gn. Julius Caesar Cornelianus wrote:
> Regardless of how you label the actions of Drusus they certainly do
> not amount to anything on par with domestic violence.

That's precisely what I said: Using a term for the sake of exaggerated
hyperbole cheapens the term and reduces its effectiveness when later
used correctly.

However, she did not say it was equivalent in damage to domestic
violence, she said it was a case of blaming the victim for "provoking"
the abuse as is often done in domestic violence cases. Not the same
thing.

Vale
- Troianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Servius Equitius Mercurius
Troianus <hermeticagnosis@e...> wrote:

> Salve Q. Lanius Paulinus -
>
> The Muppets, no problem - but the moment this List degenerates to

the

> level of Jerry Springer I'm going to become very concerned! ;-)
>
> Vale
> - Troianus

"Salve Maior,

>
> Would you please leave me out of your flailing attempt to justify

your

> argument? You buzz around NR so quickly--like a gnat--that you

don't

> bother to read who you are responding to......
> .....disagreement with you. You lack Drusus' sense of style and

delivery

> but do spell better. P'raps we should call you Drusa, an

embarassment

> to your friends and a gift to your opponents.
>
> Cheers, "
>
> Palladius (not Silanus

Salve Troiane,

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!
We're here, LOL! Steve runs over to break them up as they have at it
on the stage! -:)
Ah, be concerned, be very concerned Troiane.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Salve Gn. Iulius Caesar -

On Jan 1, 2005, at 1:56 AM, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:

> History is not about how things should have been or might have been;
> history is about how things were, with no ornamentation, trimming,
> pruning or censorship.
>
You are so right!
Revisionism isn't History, it's a bunch of Apologists wanting to feel
good about the past by distorting it through rose tinted lenses.
The better the research, the closer we are to understanding the way it
really was, and that's History. Nobody has to *like* it - it just has
to be as accurate as possible.

Vale
- Troianus

Salve Troianus.

>Nobody has to *like* it - it just has to be as accurate as possible<

Exactly! I also said that what we do with that knowledge in respect
of Nova Roma's development is an entirely different matter.

We do not need to interpret the past to suit the "now". We just have
to fully understand the past and then debate how we absorb that into
NR. The former is the strict discipline of historical analysis, the
latter decisions of policy.

You and I don't seem to see that there is an imbalance between the
two processes. They are mutually interdependent. We need accurate
facts to make sound decisions, but accurate facts only achieve full
relevance if they are somehow linked to policy.

Vale
Caesar

Salva Maxima Valeria Messallina -

On Dec 30, 2004, at 9:53 AM, Maxima wrote:
> Hardly. Wouldn't the Romans know a good warrior when they saw one,
> regardless of gender, and employ such warriors if it proved to their
> advantage? Sure they would. That's not 21st century thinking, that
> *smart* thinking.
>
I. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
II. Cultural myopia creates huge blind spots - what is obvious to us
remains unseen to them.
III. History is full of examples of people who would rather be dead and
"right" than alive and "*smart*".

Some Ptolemaic Greek merchant full of "Egyptian decadence" would hire
them as guards on the spot.
A Roman Centurian would never get past the fact that they're women. A
mindset can be an awfully rigid thing.

Vale
- Troianus

Ego, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), hac re ipsa
decus Novae Romae me defensurum, et semper pro populo senatuque
Novae Romae acturum esse sollemniter iuro.

Ego, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), officio Tribuni
Plebis Novae Romae accepto, Deos Deasque Romae in omnibus meae vitae
publicae temporibus culturum, et virtutes Romanas publica privataque
vita me persecuturum esse iuro.

Ego, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), Religioni
Romanae me fauturum et eam defensurum, et numquam contra eius statum
publicum me acturum esse, ne quid detrimenti capiat iuro.

Ego, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), officiis muneris
Tribuni plebis me quam optime functurum esse praeterea iuro.

Meo civis Novae Romae honore, coram deis deabusque populi Romani, et
voluntate favoreque eorum, ego munus Tribuni Plebis una cum iuribus,
privilegiis, muneribus et officiis comitantibus accipio.


--oOo--


I, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), do hereby solemnly
swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the
best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a Tribune of the Plebs of Nova Roma, I, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
(Guido Costantini), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome
in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public
and private life.

I, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), swear to uphold
and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), swear to protect
and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus (Guido Costantini), further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Tribune of the Plebs to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Tribune of the Plebs and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
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2004/2005: Nike, Puma, Adidas....

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Salvete omnes.

I have endeavoured to conduct some limited research into this matter
using what sources I could find on the `net. Some interesting points
emerged or were further highlighted.

There are a number of possible explanations for the presence of
cremated horses and weaponry in these graves. This is not an
exhaustive list but it covers a number of possibilities raised here
or which are self-evident possibilities.

1. They were members of the numerus stationed at Brocavum Fort
2. They were related to men serving at the Fort
3. They were warriors related to men serving at the Fort
4. They were warriors hired by persons living in the viscus
5. They were members of the local indigenous nobility
6. They were local persons of some wealth
7. They were camp prostitutes
8. They were none of the above

"The Brocavum Fort is sited in a field adjacent to Brougham Castle
Farm, just off the A66 trunk road about two miles south of Penrith.
There is a small marching camp* on the opposite side of the A66
about 400 yards north-east of the fort, sited on a bluff overlooking
the confluence of the Rivers Eamont and Lowther. Another temporary
camp** is situated about three miles to the north-east on Langwathby
Moor"

* (http://www.roman- britain.org/places/brougham.htm)
**(http://www.roman-britain.org/places/langwathby_moor.htm.

Apart from the finds that have been discovered during this most
recent excavation of the fort, as well as that conducted during
1966/67 and in the 1980's the following provides a reference to a
specific unit:

DEO MARTI ... ... IANVARIVS N EQ STRATONICIANORVM V M
"To the God Mars [...] Januarius of the Company of Cavalrymen from
Stratonice deservedly fulfilled his vow."
(RIB 780; altarstone -
http://www.romanbritain.freeserve.co.uk/INSCRIPTIONS.HTM)

"This altarstone, though undated, was very likely commissioned
during the third century AD by Syrian cavalrymen stationed at the
Brougham fort. Stratonice or Stratonicea was a town in the Caria
region of Asia Minor, near the modern town of Yatagan in south-
western Turkey, which became a Macedonian colony in the third
century BC and was later beautified and adorned under the influence
of the kings of Syria."
(http://www.roman-britain.org/places/brocavum.htm):

At this point before we jump to the conclusion that the two females
originated from Stratonicea or that general region we should note
the following. A vicus or settlement existed close to the fort. This
would have been "home" to relatives of some of those military
personnel serving at the fort, amongst other civilians. Barbican
Research Associates who are conducting the dig concluded in 2002
that:

"Recurring features in the material culture and possibly in the
burial practice strongly suggest that the people buried at Brougham
had had links with the Danubian lands. The possibility that the
Brougham cemetery was the burial place of a unit transferred from
Pannonia is a very strong one and would be supported by the
epigraphic evidence."
(http://www.barbicanra.btinternet.co.uk/current.htm)

However Cumbria was also home to the Brigantes, a confederation of
tribes that included the Carvetii. Apparently they were granted
their own tribal council by Rome (although I couldn't see the
original source for this statement). The latter were located
specifically in the general area of Cumbria while the Brigantes were
spread over a greater area.

(http://www.unrv.com/provinces/britannia.php)
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/iron_02.shtml)

"Interestingly, the Carvetii are not mentioned in the Geography of
Claudius Ptolemaeus. This is very strange because the surrounding
tribes, the Novantae, Selgovae and Votadini in Scotland, and the
Brigantes of northern England, all have entries in the work. The
Carvetian towns have not been attributed to the Brigantes or any of
the other tribes by mistake; it would seem that there is a void in
Ptolemy's data and for some reason the Carvetii were missed out."
(http://www.roman-britain.org/tribes/carvetii.htm)

One possible reason for this is that they had been so completely
assimilated into Romano-British culture that they were no longer a
distinct tribe. This tribe's principal claim to fame had been
Ventius, the husband of Queen Cartimandua of the Brigantes.
Cartimandua had been a supportive ally of the Romans at the time of
the invasion by the Emperor Claudius. Ventius attempted to depose
Cartimandua who was only saved by intervention by the Legions.
Ventius was finally defeated (Tacitus (Annals Book XII, chapter 40).

One can speculate, reasonably I think, that by the time the Carvetii
were granted tribal status, the Roman governor must have been
completely satisfied that their rebellious nature had been
eradicated. Additionally the territory of the Carvetii has an
extremely high concentration of forts, over 40 auxiliary forts alone
and about 20 viscus settlements. Rather than seeing the Carvetii as
a problem tribe it should be remembered that the Brigantes (from
whom the Carvetii were divorced by now) were still at various points
a "problem" as well as the close proximity of Hadrians Wall and the
Picts who were a continuing menace.

One can also reasonably conclude that the presence of so many
military forts and supporting settlements generated a considerable
number of commercial opportunities in the region. Trade and the
economy were likely to have been strong, as is always the case where
military forces are based.

Can one assume that the grave goods that were found with these two
women were evidence of a link to an "Amazonian" origin? Given the
fact that this area was very busy just in terms of military
personnel from different units the possibility of sales of items
between individuals actually from Pannonia to non-Pannonian
individuals cannot be discounted. The busy nature of the area would
likely have resulted in booming trade. We also have a paucity of
information regarding the origin of the grave goods (unless I missed
a reference in the Barbican report). There seems to be no indication
that what was found in the graves was Pannonian in origin. It maybe,
but Barbican just doesn't seem to comment - publically.

From the Times report:

"One of the sets of women warrior's remains were found with the
burnt remnants of animals. Bone veneer, used to decorate boxes, was
also found alongside evidence of a sword scabbard and red pottery.
The possessions suggest that she was of high status and her age has
been estimated at between 20 and 40 years old. The other woman,
thought to be between 21 and 45, was buried with a silver bowl, a
sword scabbard, bone veneer and ivory"
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1411715,00.html)

Interestingly the report of grave goods does not indicate whether a
sword hilt was found. It seems unlikely a warrior would have been
buried with a horse and a scabbard but no actual sword. The
degradable parts of the sword could have vanished but there should
have been evidence of the ironwork. Again there seems to be no
mention of whether this was the case.

As a comparison refer to this site:

(http://www.womanwarrior.co.uk/Scythian.htm)

and note that these women were also buried with weapons and
sometimes armour. References have been made to these women being
Amazons. For some background on the Amazons the following websites
provide interesting information.

http://www.geocities.com/treanna_amazon/existance.html
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/amazons.html
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/sarmatian.shtml
http://www.net4you.co.at/users/poellauerg/Amazons/
http://www.archaeology.org/9701/abstracts/sarmatians.html

Due to the lack of information, partly due I think to the scarcity
of documentation from earlier excavations which is implied in the
report by Barbican Research Associates, and the cremation process we
don't have the benefit of knowing whether the leg bones were bowed
or not on these two women. This would have indicated a life in the
saddle. Also there is no disclosed evidence that any of the bones
bear signs of injuries likely to have caused death. No arrowheads
for example are reported as having been found in the graves, or
logged in a spinal column as at British hill forts during the
Claudian invasion. There are no reports of any injuries whatsoever
on the bones. That doesn't mean there were none, just that that
evidence of a violent death does not exist due to the cremation
process.. A violent death in itself would not conclusively prove
that death had occurred while the females were active combatants.
There is nothing in the reports to indicate that the grave goods
were manufactured in Pannonia. They could have been locally
manufactured, but the presence of other Pannonian objects in the
vicinity linked to the possibility of these two having been warriors
(vis a vis the scabbards and horses) could have led to the
conclusion that these women must have been from Pannonia and
warriors and therefore in the service of Rome.

Frankly this seems a considerable stretch of deductive reasoning.
For all we know these women could have been Carvetii of noble cast,
wealthy Romano-British of Carvetii origin, or any of the other
possibilities that have been mooted here.

What do we know of Stratonicea, where the numerus at Brocavum
originated from? It was located in Caria (south-west of Modern
Turkey). Some links on the area:

(http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/caria)
(http://www.livius.org/cao-caz/caria/caria.html)

To bring this to a close and without examining each of the possible
explanations I listed at the start, it is clear we have no clear
evidence to suggest that these bodies were either warriors, from
Pannonia, from Stratonicea, Carvetii nobility, or successful
prostitutes. We just don't know for sure on the basis of the
publically available facts.

I do think that given the lack of evidence so far from elsewhere to
indicate women served with the numerii, let alone the regular units,
that any of the other explanations are more likely. This is pure
instinct on my part and likely won't be shared by everyone.

Valete
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

Salve,

I personally think that it is a pointless exercise to
engage in dialogue with you, but an innacuracy in your
postings require me to do so.

It is Decimus Iunius Silanus that is your 'supporter'
of Drusus, not, in this instance, Decius Iunius
Palladius Invictus. As has been said to you by many
other, READ the posts you are replying to.

However, whilst I'm here:

I do not consider myself a supporter of Drusus. To be
perfectly honest, I couldn't care less is he stays or
goes. However, I believe no-one should be banished for
abrasive posting. Irrespective of any oath, how can
anyone here really support such a stance.

My original point, now lost in a poinless argument
about mental cruelty and wife bashing, was that any
attempt to investigate Drusus' abrasive posts should
investigate the posts he is replying to. You're
supposed to be the lawyer, so we all keep hearing.
Should not any investigation involve every possible
avenue.

As ever, you attempt to emotionalise the argument with
terms such as 'hapless cives', 'wife beating', 'mental
cruelty', and quite cleverly, 'victims'. Testament, I
believe, to your own personal form logic which I
cannot but find difficult to comprehend. I'll leave it
there, already far too much effort.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus



--- Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

Salve Vesta Caprenia;
abusive behavior takes many forms consisting of
mental & physical
cruelty. It is a common theme for the abuser to blame
the victim 'you
made me do it'.
Drusus's defenders such as Q. Fabius Maximus and D.
Iunius
Palladius Invictus have made such statements, that it
is the hapless
cives fault. Drusus as far as I know never apologizes
nor is he the
least sorry. No one deserves verbal abuse.

My logic is quite linear and clear.

Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
Propraetrix Hiberniae
caput Officina Iuriis
et Investigatio CFQ




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called
Vesta"
<optia_vesta@y...> wrote:

> And attempting to equate an email retort, however

cutting, to

> domestic violence is spurious logic at best -- and

*that* was the

> point.
>
> Do check your allegories at the door.
>
>
> --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salve Vestinia Caprenia;
> > That post #31868# addresses M. Iunius

Palladius's claim that it

> > is the Quirites's fault for irritating Drusus into

being verbally

> > abusive.
> > I never mentions Gn. Iulius Cornelianus at all,

do check it

> > please,
> > Marca Arminia Maior Fabiana TRP
> >
> > Propraetrix Hiberniae
> > caput Officina Iuriis
> > et Investigatio CFQ
> >
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Vestinia, called

Vesta"

> > <optia_vesta@y...> wrote:
> > > Oh, honestly! That's really beyond the pale.
> > >
> > > The discussion is about Cornelianus being able

to construct a

> > > coherent, logical rebuttal, devoid of ad hominem

commentary, and

> > > suddenly the topic of domestic violence becomes

a parable?

> > >
> > > This is exactly the sort of emotional claim that

has been used
on

> > > this discussion for its entirety.
> > >
> > > Advocation of further research suddenly equals

"personal
attack."

> > > Rebuttal of current claims suddenly equals

"sexism."

> > > Research into posts made on this topic suddenly

equals "domestic

> > > violence."
> > >
> > > That's really quite enough of the knee-jerk

feminism.

> > >
> > > That's the thing about a knee-jerk reaction: It

doesn't require

> > the
> > > word "knee."
> > >
> > > Vestinia Caprenia
> > >
> > > --- Maior <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > > > sorry to say that the excuse that you gave

below is the
same

> > for
> > > > victims of domestic violence "you goaded me

into it"

> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> > > http://my.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Optia Vestinia Aurelia, called Vesta
> Defensatrix Beldenia, Sgt. of Adiantum
> Squire to Sir Ambrose Mavrorothakis
> Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut
> SCAdian, Filker, Bujold junkie and part-time pusher
> Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do

good.

> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com

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