Salve,

According to Flavius Vegetius Renatus in his work De Re Militari
(written during the 4th Century):

"The recruit, however, should not receive the military mark as soon as
enlisted. He must first be tried if fit for service; whether he has
sufficient activity and strength; if he has capacity to learn his duty;
and whether he has the proper degree of military courage. For many,
though promising enough in appearance, are found very unfit upon trial.
These are to be rejected and replaced by better men; for it is not
numbers, but bravery which carries the day.

After their examination, the recruits should then receive the military
mark, and be taught the use of their arms by constant and daily
exercise. But this essential custom has been abolished by the relaxation
introduced by a long peace. We cannot now expect to find a man to teach
what he never learned himself. The only method, therefore, that remains
of recovering the ancient customs is by books, and by consulting the old
historians. But they are of little service to us in this respect, as
they only relate the exploits and events of wars, and take no notice of
the objects of our present enquiries, which they considered as
universally known."

It is not known if the mark was a tattoo, brand or something else. The
fact that during the 4th century it was known that workers in Imperial
armament "factories" were branded makes it seem likely that this
military mark was something similar.

The marking of troops in such way may be indicative of the decline in
the Roman military at the time, since it is almost certain such a
practice was meant to discourage desertion. That being said, there is no
clear evidence when the practice of "marking" soldiers began, though It
would seem likely that it was confined to the later empire, given the
native Romans' distaste for such body modification.

Hope that helps!

Vale,

Hadrianus





Triarius wrote:

>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Ken Scriboni <GnScribScriptor@g...>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Does anybody have any information in regards to tattoo's in regards to
>>Roma Antica? Especially military oriented, but also civilian.
>>
>>~Gn.Scrib.Scriptor
>>
>>
>
>Salvete,
>
>Along these lines, just rewatched "Gladiator" and was wondering if
>there is any basis for the arm tattoo "SPQR" for soldiers that Russell
>Crowe was wearing, or was that just Hollywood using creative license
>again?
>
>Valete,
>Triarius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salvete omnes,

It is sometimes said there is a fine line between genius and
insanity. That being said, apparently Nero was good in the arts as
well as a great architect. In a way he reminds me a great deal of
Herod The Great. Herod's genius at building, like Nero has for a
long time been overshadowed by his paranoia and crimes. Nero's
relatives always had that sword over their heads but there was also
a saying that you were safer being one of Herod's swine than one of
his sons.

All in all both these figures are stigmatized by the fire in Rome
and Christian persecution then the slaughter of the innocents and
beheading of a famous prophet respectively. In fairness it was
mentioned that Nero was out of Rome when the fire started. Much of
the city, especially in summer was a tinderbox without safe
household cooking facilities and fire outbreaks were very common.
Nero rushed back to personally direct the fire fighting. Apparently,
there is no written record outside the bible of a slaughter of many
babies attributed to Herod as well.

Finally, I remember reading once that emperors who kept to
themselves, indulged in their wild times actually did less harm to
the overall social fabric and economic health of the empire than
others like Diocletian who ripped apart the status quo and did huge
reorganizations,

Regards,

QLP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Bird" <p.bird@n...> wrote:
> Salvete, omnes Â…
>
> Thanks for that interesting account of the great fire of Rome! I
wonder how
> much we know of Nero has been influenced by later Christian
writers, giving
> rise to his demonisation? An interesting point!
>
> Valete!
>
> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
> Of Triarius
> Sent: 18 July 2005 15:32
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Anniversary of the Burning of Rome
>
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> In light of the recent tragedies we are facing in the modern
world,
> we are reminded of the historical tragedy of July 18, 64 AD, when
> Rome burned. If Nero did infact order Rome to be burned, then the
> Citizens of Rome were exposed to terrorism as well. Here is a
summary
> of the event I found on line at:
>
> "The Burning of Rome, 64 AD," EyeWitness to History,
> http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pfrome.htm
>
> The Burning of Rome, 64 AD
>
> During the night of July 18, 64 AD, fire broke out in the merchant
> area of the city of Rome. Fanned by summer winds, the flames
quickly
> spread through the dry, wooden structures of the Imperial City.
Soon
> the fire took on a life of its own consuming all in its path for
six
> days and seven nights. When the conflagration finally ran its
course
> it left seventy percent of the city in smoldering ruins.
>
> Rumors soon arose accusing the Emperor Nero of ordering the
torching
> of the city and standing on the summit of the Palatine playing his
> lyre as flames devoured the world around him. These rumors have
never
> been confirmed. In fact, Nero rushed to Rome from his palace in
> Antium (Anzio) and ran about the city all that first night without
> his guards directing efforts to quell the blaze. But the rumors
> persisted and the Emperor looked for a scapegoat. He found it in
the
> Christians, at that time a rather obscure religious sect with a
small
> following in the city. To appease the masses, Nero literally had
his
> victims fed to the lions during giant spectacles held in the
city's
> remaining amphitheater.
>
> From the ashes of the fire rose a more spectacular Rome. A city
made
> of marble and stone with wide streets, pedestrian arcades and
ample
> supplies of water to quell any future blaze. The debris from the
fire
> was used to fill the malaria-ridden marshes that had plagued the
city
> for generations.
>
> The Horror of Fire
>
> The historian Tacitus was born in the year 56 or 57 probably in
Rome.
> He was in Rome during the great fire. During his lifetime he wrote
a
> number of histories chronicling the reigns of the early emperors.
The
> following eye witness account comes from his final work The Annals
> written around the year 116.
>
> "Â… Now started the most terrible and destructive fire which Rome
had
> ever experienced. It began in the Circus, where it adjoins the
> Palatine and Caelian hills. Breaking out in shops selling
inflammable
> goods, and fanned by the wind, the conflagration instantly grew
and
> swept the whole length of the Circus. There were no walled
mansions
> or temples, or any other obstructions, which could arrest it.
First,
> the fire swept violently over the level spaces. Then it climbed
the
> hills - but returned to ravage the lower ground again. It
outstripped
> every counter-measure. The ancient city's narrow winding streets
and
> irregular blocks encouraged its progress.
>
> Terrified, shrieking women, helpless old and young, people intent
on
> their own safety, people unselfishly supporting invalids or
waiting
> for them, fugitives and lingerers alike - all heightened the
> confusion. When people looked back, menacing flames sprang up
before
> them or outflanked them. When they escaped to a neighboring
quarter,
> the fire followed - even districts believed remote proved to be
> involved. Finally, with no idea where or what to flee, they
crowded
> on to the country roads, or lay in the fields. Some who had lost
> everything - even their food for the day - could have escaped, but
> preferred to die. So did others, who had failed to rescue their
loved
> ones. Nobody dared fight the flames. Attempts to do so were
prevented
> by menacing gangs. Torches, too, were openly thrown in, by men
crying
> that they acted under orders. Perhaps they had received orders. Or
> they may just have wanted to plunder unhampered.
>
> Nero was at Antium. He returned to the city only when the fire was
> approaching the mansion he had built to link the Gardens of
Maecenas
> to the Palatine. The flames could not be prevented from
overwhelming
> the whole of the Palatine, including his palace. Nevertheless, for
> the relief of the homeless, fugitive masses he threw open the
Field
> of Mars, including Agrippa's public buildings, and even his own
> Gardens. Nero also constructed emergency accommodation for the
> destitute multitude. Food was brought from Ostia and neighboring
> towns, and the price of corn was cut to less than ¼ sesterce a
pound.
> Yet these measures, for all their popular character, earned no
> gratitude. For a rumor had spread that, while the city was
burning,
> Nero had gone on his private stage and, comparing modern
calamities
> with ancient, had sung of the destruction of Troy.
>
> By the sixth day enormous demolitions had confronted the raging
> flames with bare ground and open sky, and the fire was finally
> stamped out at the foot of the Esquiline Hill. But before panic
had
> subsided, or hope revived, flames broke out again in the more open
> regions of the city. Here there were fewer casualties; but the
> destruction of temples and pleasure arcades was even worse. This
new
> conflagration caused additional ill-feeling because it started on
> Tigellinus' estate in the Aemilian district. For people believed
that
> Nero was ambitious to found a new city to be called after himself.
>
> Of Rome's fourteen districts only four remained intact. Three were
> leveled to the ground. The other seven were reduced to a few
scorched
> and mangled ruins."
>
> Nero became Emperor in the year 54 at the age of 16. He quickly
> distinguished himself by murdering his mother and his wife and
> establishing a Reign of Terror over Rome. He committed suicide in
68
> after the Roman Senate declared him an "enemy of the State."
>
> During the reign of the Emperor Trajan, Tacitus was made Governor
of
> Western Anatolia.
>
> After discovering a plot against him, Nero vowed to rid Rome of
all
> philosophers. Seneca, his teacher and mentor, was forced to commit
> suicide in the year 65.
>
> References:
> Duruy, Victor, History of Rome vol. V (1883); Grant, Michael
> (translator), Tacitus, The Annals of Imperial Rome, (1989)
>
> Valete,
> Triarius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "Nova-Roma
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma> " on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete everyone,

can you tell me what the test I will have to take at the end of
probation period will be like? Apart from what can be read in FAQ, I
mean. Do you have to undergo the online equivalent of an oral exam or
do you get a handful of question and a week of time?

In the latter case, whats the point of it? Theres not much you cant
find out in 5 minutes using google/yahoo or something.

Take care.

Papinianus Marco suo salutem!

Although i feel every upright Roman should support the BLUE team ;) I
gladly accept (and hereby return) your greetings. Are you interested
in a specific aspect of Roman life or are you just generally
fascinated? I have some professional interest in the ROman legal
system, but otherwise I'm just curious about all and everything.
Since my school-days I loved the Latin language, although I fear I'm
not very accomplished. Which province are you living in?

By the way, someone jokingly suggested Tennis and soccer were no
proper sport for a good Roman who should take on the gladius instead.
I seem to recall that ball-playing games were not only common in
Rome, but socially accepted even in the ordo senatorius. M. Scaevola
(a famous lawyer) is reported to have stopped and watched a trial on
his way to the ball games, and in some letter I think Pliny the
younger expresses his warm feelings towards an elderly friend of hi
who is still capable of some sport. Does anyone know any more about
this?

Sadly, I couldnt find the time to visit ROme on market day as I
intended. Have you ever been there? is it fun?

Cura ut valeas (which, by the way, is not my name, but a Roman
farewell, meaning something along the lines of: take good care of
yourself).

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "chaz72002" <crosa@h...> wrote:
> WELCOME Curate ut valeatis.

G. Equitius Cato S. Pilato Barbato S.P.D.

Salve Pilatus Barbatus.

"It is a dangerous office to give good advice to intemperate princes."
- L. Annaeus Seneca, Morals

As you can see from the quotes from Dio Cassius, Tacitus, and
Seutonius, Nero didn't need much help from the Christians to be
demonized. Pretty much everybody who had the pleasure of knowing him
(or even had read about his antics) decided that he was an almost
indescribably horrible man. The Early Church did, though, feel very
strongly that even if Nero was not "the" Antichrist, he was at least
"an" antichrist:

"He [St. Paul] alluded to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as
the deeds of Antichrist. And hence some suppose that he shall rise
again and be Antichrist. Others, again, suppose that he is not even
now dead, but that he was concealed that he might be supposed to have
been killed, and that he now lives in concealment in the vigour of
that same age which he had reached when he was believed to have
perished, and will live until he is revealed in his own time and
restored to his kingdom." - St. Aurelius Augustine of Hippo, The City
of God 20.19

"What means the declaration, that the mystery of iniquity already
works?... Some suppose this to be spoken of the Roman emperor, and
therefore Paul did not speak in plain words, because he would not
incur the charge of calumny for having spoken evil of the Roman
emperor: although he always expected that what he had said would be
understood as applying to Nero." - op.cit.

"This calls for wisdom: let anyone with understanding calculate the
number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. Its number is
666." - The Revelation of St. John the Divine 13:18

Of course, it helps that in the Greek and Hebrew versions of Nero's
name we find that infamous calculation of "666". 666 is most likely
a reference either to Nero himself or to some imperial title or slogan
known at Ephesus. From other contemporary apocalyptic sources we know
that they used numerology in this way. For example, among the
fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls was found just such a numerical
calculation based on the name of Nero using Hebrew letters. It is
difficult to know precisely what combination of letters was intended
to total 666 in Revelation, but several suggestions have been made
that fit. There was also a rumor current in Asia Minor at that time
that Nero had come back to life as Domitian. And it was Domitian who
set up the Imperial cult in Ephesus in A.D. 89. So, it remains
unclear --- Nero or Domitian?

Another problem is that Roman coins and inscriptions almost always
employ abbreviated forms of names and titles for Emperors. So it is
quite possible that the slogan was something like that, and the
abbreviations would have only been understood by people from the local
contexts. What was the mark, then? It probably was a form of imperial
propaganda, closely aligned with the imperial cult, which was used in
commercial contracts and affidavits. Or it might have been the images
and inscriptions on the money itself, that to the author of Revelation
symbolized collusion with the "beast". Probably, it was meant only
to emphasize that the antichrist was not the real Christ, and to draw
an association to Nero Caesar as the actual antichrist, as a potential
antichrist, or as a type of antichrist. And the New Testament teaches
that there would be many antichrists before The Antichrist:

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the
antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come." - The
Second Letter of John 2:18

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the
flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver
and the antichrist." - The Second Letter of John 7:7

But no matter how you slice it, Nero comes up bad.

Vale,

Cato

Papinianus omnibus salutem - iterum!

While I'm at it, are there any legal historians (or hobby-researchers
like myself) within our ranks who would discuss Justinian's Digest and
other legal sources with me? Enough even for a new club, maybe? Three
is company! (Marcellus Dig. 50, 16, 85: Neratius Priscus tres facere
existimat collegium - Neratius Priscus felt that three make a company).

Cant wait for responses.

Valete.

Sorry indeed about the name thing! (I have serious hurdles to
overcome with the Latin)

But I do DIG the Romans...
My Province is MEDIATLANTICA - I live in NYC.

I love reading about the Emperors, generals, maps showing the extent
of the empire/republic, etc. Also I have alot of DVD's on all of it
too. (cant wait for ROME on HBO!)

I guess in NEW ROME I shall pursue something in either the military,
politics or even gladiator and/or chariots.
(I cant seem to find out who/what/where this stuff is happening. (IF)
I find the RED team site but cant join the yahoo group, etc.

Oh well - alot to learn and do around here.
VALE,
ROSEAUS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "numerius2002" <numerius2002@y...>
wrote:

> Papinianus Marco suo salutem!
>
> Although i feel every upright Roman should support the BLUE team ;)

I

> gladly accept (and hereby return) your greetings. Are you

interested

> in a specific aspect of Roman life or are you just generally
> fascinated? I have some professional interest in the ROman legal
> system, but otherwise I'm just curious about all and everything.
> Since my school-days I loved the Latin language, although I fear

I'm

> not very accomplished. Which province are you living in?
>
> By the way, someone jokingly suggested Tennis and soccer were no
> proper sport for a good Roman who should take on the gladius

instead.

> I seem to recall that ball-playing games were not only common in
> Rome, but socially accepted even in the ordo senatorius. M.

Scaevola

> (a famous lawyer) is reported to have stopped and watched a trial

on

> his way to the ball games, and in some letter I think Pliny the
> younger expresses his warm feelings towards an elderly friend of hi
> who is still capable of some sport. Does anyone know any more about
> this?
>
> Sadly, I couldnt find the time to visit ROme on market day as I
> intended. Have you ever been there? is it fun?
>
> Cura ut valeas (which, by the way, is not my name, but a Roman
> farewell, meaning something along the lines of: take good care of
> yourself).
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "chaz72002" <crosa@h...> wrote:
> > WELCOME Curate ut valeatis.

Flavia Tullia Scholastica Papiniano quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
omnibus S.P.D.

> Papinianus omnibus salutem - iterum!
>
> While I'm at it, are there any legal historians (or hobby-researchers
> like myself) within our ranks who would discuss Justinian's Digest and
> other legal sources with me? Enough even for a new club, maybe? Three
> is company! (Marcellus Dig. 50, 16, 85: Neratius Priscus tres facere
> existimat collegium - Neratius Priscus felt that three make a company).
>

There is a mailing list--not really a sodality--devoted to Roman laws.
Our resident legal eagle, Aulus Apollonius Cordus, would be happy to chat
with you. We also have other attorneys among us--Marca Hortensia Maior and
Publius Memmius Albucius, among others. In addition, several citizens who
are not in the legal field share this interest.

> Cant wait for responses.
>
> Valete.
>

Vale, et valete,

Flavia Tullia

> Salvete,
>
> Along these lines, just rewatched "Gladiator" and was wondering if
> there is any basis for the arm tattoo "SPQR" for soldiers that

Russell

> Crowe was wearing, or was that just Hollywood using creative license
> again?
>
> Valete,
> Triarius

Salve,

I suspect that it was creative license akin to Michelangelo's "David"
being part of the statuary in "Demetrius and The Gladiators" It's a
1950's movie now out on home video. It looks real good in the
background until one realizes that it wasn't sculpted until 1400 years
later.

Vale,

Calvus

Salve, Numeri, et salvete, omnes!

> Salvete everyone,
>
> can you tell me what the test I will have to take at the end of
> probation period will be like? Apart from what can be read in FAQ, I
> mean. Do you have to undergo the online equivalent of an oral exam or
> do you get a handful of question and a week of time?

The citizenship test is a short, primarily multiple-choice test covering
a little of this, and a little of that. Latin, Roman culture and
civilization, religion, Nova Roman government, etc., are among the items
tested. When your probationary period is up, the scriba who handled your
application will send you a copy of the test, which must be returned within
72 hours.

>
> In the latter case, whats the point of it? Theres not much you cant
> find out in 5 minutes using google/yahoo or something.

The point is that we have a law mandating this in order to discourage
frivolous citizenship applications and to ensure that new citizens know
something about ancient Rome and its language, culture, and history AND
something about Nova Roma before they are allowed to vote. Tests normally
are taken under test conditions, that is, without the use of books or
internet resources.

>
> Take care.
>

Vale, et valete,

Flavia Tullia Scholastica
Scriba Latinitati Censoris Gnaei Equiti Marini

Salve, Rosaee, et salvete, omnes!

> WELCOME Curate ut valeatis.
>
> I am Marcus Octavius Roseaus and a NEW ROMAN myself. I too find it
> cool to see a group of people who share my passion for The Roman
> Republic/Empire...
>
> Enjoy and hope to see you around the...well....around ROMA!
> VALE,
> ROSEAUS

[Roseus...]

>
> PS - I am in RUSSATA - can anyone tell me if the races are active and
> if so, how does one get involved? (I have tried to join the group
> with no luck.

Races are often part of ludi (games), which are held on some of the
major religious festivals under the supervision of the aediles. Information
on subscription to individual races is posted in advance of these events by
the aedile in charge of the ludi in question. If you're interested, you
should be able to find information on the last set of races by searching the
archives of the Main List. Don't worry; you'll have plenty of time to enter
before the next set of races. As for joining a factio, perhaps the dominus
factionis Russatae (leader of the Red Faction) is on vacation, or has ISP
problems, or is MIA. I know people in the Factio Albata and the Factio
Praesina, but I'm afraid I can't help you with Russata as I don't know who's
in charge thereof.

In order to pass your citizenship test, you must learn a bit of
Latin...there's a section on the website which should help with this--and we
will be offering a wide range of Latin courses at the Academia Thules in the
Fall, should you be interested in a deeper acquaintance with the language of
the Romans.

Vale, et valete,

Flavia

>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "numerius2002" <numerius2002@y...>
> wrote:
>> Hi whats up Nova Romans, my name's C. Aemilius Papinianus. I have
> just
>> acquired citizenship, so hello everyone.
>>
>> Let me introduce myself. I am 31 years old, lawyer, like to play
> tennis
>> and soccer. I stumbled over Nova Roma while I researched a question
> of
>> legal history on the net, and was at once intrigued. So I applied
> for
>> citizenship and (having overcome a little difficulty with my name,
>> which seems to be no uncommon problem judging by the other
> postings)
>> was granted it just now. At the university I learned some Roman
> law,
>> that's how I came to be fascinated by all things Roman.
>>
>> I think I'll take a stroll around the forum come market day, so see
> you
>> all there.
>>
>> Curate ut valeatis.
>
>
>
>

A. Apollonius M. Octavio Q. Hortensio C. Aemilio
omnibus sal.

Welcome, three new citizens! I hope you all find your
places here and stay with us for many years.

M. Octavi, I'm glad you persevered to overcome the
difficulties with your name. I hope you've got in
touch with Cato - he's an excellent fellow and will
make you feel very welcome.

Q. Hortensi - ah, your namesake was a great man
indeed. What a wonder it must have been to see him
opposing Cicero in court. Indeed there's a story that
they once swapped sides before a court-case so that
Hortensius could go first and get away early to keep
another appointment! If you're as successful and
well-loved in our republic as he was in his, you'll be
doing very well indeed.

Salve C. Aemili. I'm an amateur historian with a
particular interest in Roman law - particularly,
though it may dismay you to hear it, republican Roman
law. Our fellow-citizen C. Julius Scaurus is a
professional epigrapher and very learned in Roman law
and religion, but regrettably he has of late withdrawn
from public life and is very rarely heard from. A
relatively new citizen, A. Sempronius Regulus, has
similar credentials, but he's been very quiet too
lately, I don't know why. M. Hortensia Major takes an
interest in such things, and there are several
citizens who know more about Roman law than they knew
in the spring, because I've been teaching it to them
in a little course in our Academia. So we have more
than enough for a collegium if you want one! There is
already an e-mail list - NovaRomaLaws@yahoogroups.com
- which plays host to discussions about both ancient
and modern Roman law (by "modern Roman law" of course
I mean that of our republic), though it has been quiet
lately.

So, welcome all of you. :)



___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

Salvete omnes,

It was previously mentioned that tatoos were for slaves and
criminals in Ancient Rome and the Jewish people frowned on them.
I noticed that even today they are discouraged in the professional
fields and offices. Even in the military I do not remember seeing
them hardly at all in the comissioned officers' ranks.

Still, in the right areas and artistcally done yet subtle they can
look quite sexy on a woman... but that's just my opinion.

Funny how Caligula, in the Robe and Demitrius started persecuting
the Christians when there sect was probably unheard of and spread no
more than about 30 miles out of Bethlehem! There was still Claudius'
reign to come before Nero.

Regards,

QLP

> > Salvete,
> >
> > Along these lines, just rewatched "Gladiator" and was wondering

if

> > there is any basis for the arm tattoo "SPQR" for soldiers that
> Russell
> > Crowe was wearing, or was that just Hollywood using creative

license

> > again?
> >
> > Valete,
> > Triarius
>
> Salve,
>
> I suspect that it was creative license akin to

Michelangelo's "David"

> being part of the statuary in "Demetrius and The Gladiators" It's

a

> 1950's movie now out on home video. It looks real good in the
> background until one realizes that it wasn't sculpted until 1400

years

> later.
>
> Vale,
>
> Calvus

Salve,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

>Salvete omnes,
>
>It was previously mentioned that tatoos were for slaves and
>criminals in Ancient Rome and the Jewish people frowned on them.
>I noticed that even today they are discouraged in the professional
>fields and offices. Even in the military I do not remember seeing
>them hardly at all in the comissioned officers' ranks.
>
>

True, the are regarded as being "unprofessional" in the US armed force's
officer corps (as are moustaches interestingly enough...), but they are
very common in the enlisted and NCO ranks. This is partially due to the
demographics of the enlisted ranks (you see a lot of cross or Jesus
motif tattoos on Hispanic and Irish Catholics) and partially due to the
nature of military "tribal" culture (most Marines I know sport the globe
and anchor somewhere on thier body).
I picked up my first tattoo at 19 during my first tour in Korea (along
with a number of my platoon mates). =)

Vale,

Hadrianus

>Still, in the right areas and artistcally done yet subtle they can
>look quite sexy on a woman... but that's just my opinion.
>
>Funny how Caligula, in the Robe and Demitrius started persecuting
>the Christians when there sect was probably unheard of and spread no
>more than about 30 miles out of Bethlehem! There was still Claudius'
>reign to come before Nero.
>
>Regards,
>
>QLP
>
>
>
>

Salve,

There is some evidence that when Caesar's army returned to Rome some
of its what would be today be called "enlisted" did come back with
tattoos having been exposed to the art during their tour of duty.
Speaking as a former petty officer in the US Navy, not much has
changed in a couple thousand years. The enlisted culture tends to
be a bit more on the rough and tumble than "polite society."
Though perhaps it would be more truthful to say that the enlisted
culture is more honest about the rough and tumble than the "polite
society."

Vale,

Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:

>> True, the are regarded as being "unprofessional" in the US armed

force's

> officer corps (as are moustaches interestingly enough...), but

they are

> very common in the enlisted and NCO ranks. This is partially due

to the

> demographics of the enlisted ranks (you see a lot of cross or

Jesus

> motif tattoos on Hispanic and Irish Catholics) and partially due

to the

> nature of military "tribal" culture (most Marines I know sport the

globe

> and anchor somewhere on thier body).
> I picked up my first tattoo at 19 during my first tour in Korea

(along

> with a number of my platoon mates). =)
>
> Vale,
>
> Hadrianus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

> Funny how Caligula, in the Robe and Demitrius started persecuting
> the Christians when there sect was probably unheard of and spread no
> more than about 30 miles out of Bethlehem! There was still Claudius'
> reign to come before Nero.

Salve,

There is an old Hollywood ditty when it comes to not letting
historical reality interfer with telling a good story:

Cecil B. DeMille
Much against his will
Was persuaded to keep Moses
Out of the War of the Roses

If one times Melanie's pregnancy with the Civil War battles in Gone
With the Wind she's pregnant for about 12 months!

Vale,

Calvus

Salve,

Did time change for the Romans after being exposed to cultures who did ritual/social tattooing? I am think of some of the European tribes as well as Africa, the Near and Mid East

I see the military officer motioned quite a bit. At one time, none had any "ink" or at least hid it. Currently (at least in the U.S. army), you can see quite a few officers with tattoos, often acquired while in university. (12 of us in my officer basic course went and got tattoos together before graduation. Silly LTs)

This also seemed to be influenced a bit by post or Division as well. There are quite a number of female officers sporting the ankle or lower back tattoo. In fact tattoos and piercing became common enough in all ranks to update and amend the policies in the dress code during the mid-90s. Seems before that navel and tongue rings and such were just not in the regulations and were causing many a First Sergeant quite a headache.

Vale,

G.Iulia Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Tattoo's in Ancient Rome


Salve,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

>Salvete omnes,
>
>It was previously mentioned that tatoos were for slaves and
>criminals in Ancient Rome and the Jewish people frowned on them.
>I noticed that even today they are discouraged in the professional
>fields and offices. Even in the military I do not remember seeing
>them hardly at all in the comissioned officers' ranks.
>
>
True, the are regarded as being "unprofessional" in the US armed force's
officer corps (as are moustaches interestingly enough...), but they are
very common in the enlisted and NCO ranks. This is partially due to the
demographics of the enlisted ranks (you see a lot of cross or Jesus
motif tattoos on Hispanic and Irish Catholics) and partially due to the
nature of military "tribal" culture (most Marines I know sport the globe
and anchor somewhere on thier body).
I picked up my first tattoo at 19 during my first tour in Korea (along
with a number of my platoon mates). =)

Vale,

Hadrianus

>Still, in the right areas and artistcally done yet subtle they can
>look quite sexy on a woman... but that's just my opinion.
>
>Funny how Caligula, in the Robe and Demitrius started persecuting
>the Christians when there sect was probably unheard of and spread no
>more than about 30 miles out of Bethlehem! There was still Claudius'
>reign to come before Nero.
>
>Regards,
>
>QLP
>
>
>
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, docte G Equiti Cato!

And thanks for that digest on Nero - very interesting indeed. I suppose that
anyone in an emperor's position in that century had to look for saving his
own skin before any other considerations. If he saw a threat, real or
supposed, to his imperial power, his first job would be to eradicate it.
That's a perennial preoccupation of an absolute monarch. And in Nero's case,
even his mother was a threat!

Vale bene :-)

Sextus Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of gaiusequitiuscato
Sent: 18 July 2005 20:28
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anniversary of the Burning of Rome



G. Equitius Cato S. Pilato Barbato S.P.D.

Salve Pilatus Barbatus.

"It is a dangerous office to give good advice to intemperate princes."
- L. Annaeus Seneca, Morals

As you can see from the quotes from Dio Cassius, Tacitus, and
Seutonius, Nero didn't need much help from the Christians to be
demonized. Pretty much everybody who had the pleasure of knowing him
(or even had read about his antics) decided that he was an almost
indescribably horrible man. The Early Church did, though, feel very
strongly that even if Nero was not "the" Antichrist, he was at least
"an" antichrist:

"He [St. Paul] alluded to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as
the deeds of Antichrist. And hence some suppose that he shall rise
again and be Antichrist. Others, again, suppose that he is not even
now dead, but that he was concealed that he might be supposed to have
been killed, and that he now lives in concealment in the vigour of
that same age which he had reached when he was believed to have
perished, and will live until he is revealed in his own time and
restored to his kingdom." - St. Aurelius Augustine of Hippo, The City
of God 20.19

"What means the declaration, that the mystery of iniquity already
works?... Some suppose this to be spoken of the Roman emperor, and
therefore Paul did not speak in plain words, because he would not
incur the charge of calumny for having spoken evil of the Roman
emperor: although he always expected that what he had said would be
understood as applying to Nero." - op.cit.

"This calls for wisdom: let anyone with understanding calculate the
number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. Its number is
666." - The Revelation of St. John the Divine 13:18

Of course, it helps that in the Greek and Hebrew versions of Nero's
name we find that infamous calculation of "666". 666 is most likely
a reference either to Nero himself or to some imperial title or slogan
known at Ephesus. From other contemporary apocalyptic sources we know
that they used numerology in this way. For example, among the
fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls was found just such a numerical
calculation based on the name of Nero using Hebrew letters. It is
difficult to know precisely what combination of letters was intended
to total 666 in Revelation, but several suggestions have been made
that fit. There was also a rumor current in Asia Minor at that time
that Nero had come back to life as Domitian. And it was Domitian who
set up the Imperial cult in Ephesus in A.D. 89. So, it remains
unclear --- Nero or Domitian?

Another problem is that Roman coins and inscriptions almost always
employ abbreviated forms of names and titles for Emperors. So it is
quite possible that the slogan was something like that, and the
abbreviations would have only been understood by people from the local
contexts. What was the mark, then? It probably was a form of imperial
propaganda, closely aligned with the imperial cult, which was used in
commercial contracts and affidavits. Or it might have been the images
and inscriptions on the money itself, that to the author of Revelation
symbolized collusion with the "beast". Probably, it was meant only
to emphasize that the antichrist was not the real Christ, and to draw
an association to Nero Caesar as the actual antichrist, as a potential
antichrist, or as a type of antichrist. And the New Testament teaches
that there would be many antichrists before The Antichrist:

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the
antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come." - The
Second Letter of John 2:18

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the
flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver
and the antichrist." - The Second Letter of John 7:7

But no matter how you slice it, Nero comes up bad.

Vale,

Cato





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER NINETEEN


APPOINTMENT OF SCRIBE FOR CANADA
OCCIDENTALIS



19 July 2004

Salvete my fellow Nova Romans,

With great pleasure,

I, Quintus, Lanius Paulinus, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue
the following Edicta XX
to announce the appointment of:

G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana as Sriba to Canada Occidentalis.

I look forward to working with this enthusiastic citizen who shall
promote and build our province in Res Republica!

Valete bene

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Propraetor

Canada Occidentalis

M. Hortensia C. Aemilio, Q. Hortensio, M. Octavio salutem dicit;
Please forgive the lateness of my reply as I've just
returned from a non-Roman buddhist retreat;-). But I do wish to
welcome the new cives- Nova Roma is a wonderful place. And a
special 'ave' to the new member of the gens Hortensia, naturally a
place where I hope lawyers and oraters abound.
C. Aemili, as my good friend & law praeceptor Cordus has
pointed out, I also have an interest in Roman law. I graduated from
American law school and once in NR naturally took the name of the
only female jurist in the Republic (for one all too brief moment)
and am happily going to read my way through some nice tomes now that
I have access to a first rate university library.
I don't know if market days are lively, but there is an NR
laws list still in effect, at least there was and we can have happy
discussions there.
So welcome! It's wonderful to have you among us!
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
Caput Officina Censoris
Iuriis et Investigatio



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius M. Octavio Q. Hortensio C. Aemilio
> omnibus sal.
>
> Welcome, three new citizens! I hope you all find your
> places here and stay with us for many years.
>
> M. Octavi, I'm glad you persevered to overcome the
> difficulties with your name. I hope you've got in
> touch with Cato - he's an excellent fellow and will
> make you feel very welcome.
>
> Q. Hortensi - ah, your namesake was a great man
> indeed. What a wonder it must have been to see him
> opposing Cicero in court. Indeed there's a story that
> they once swapped sides before a court-case so that
> Hortensius could go first and get away early to keep
> another appointment! If you're as successful and
> well-loved in our republic as he was in his, you'll be
> doing very well indeed.
>
> Salve C. Aemili. I'm an amateur historian with a
> particular interest in Roman law - particularly,
> though it may dismay you to hear it, republican Roman
> law. Our fellow-citizen C. Julius Scaurus is a
> professional epigrapher and very learned in Roman law
> and religion, but regrettably he has of late withdrawn
> from public life and is very rarely heard from. A
> relatively new citizen, A. Sempronius Regulus, has
> similar credentials, but he's been very quiet too
> lately, I don't know why. M. Hortensia Major takes an
> interest in such things, and there are several
> citizens who know more about Roman law than they knew
> in the spring, because I've been teaching it to them
> in a little course in our Academia. So we have more
> than enough for a collegium if you want one! There is
> already an e-mail list - NovaRomaLaws@yahoogroups.com
> - which plays host to discussions about both ancient
> and modern Roman law (by "modern Roman law" of course
> I mean that of our republic), though it has been quiet
> lately.
>
> So, welcome all of you. :)
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

No offense to anyone but here in the NYPD we call the
infamous lower back tatoo a TRAMP STAMP. Not a good
thing to show off in a PT uniform!
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <vxgbhd@...>
wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Did time change for the Romans after being exposed

to cultures who did ritual/social tattooing? I am
think of some of the European tribes as well as
Africa, the Near and Mid East

>
> I see the military officer motioned quite a bit. At

one time, none had any "ink" or at least hid it.
Currently (at least in the U.S. army), you can see
quite a few officers with tattoos, often acquired
while in university. (12 of us in my officer basic
course went and got tattoos together before
graduation. Silly LTs)

>
> This also seemed to be influenced a bit by post or

Division as well. There are quite a number of female
officers sporting the ankle or lower back tattoo. In
fact tattoos and piercing became common enough in all
ranks to update and amend the policies in the dress
code during the mid-90s. Seems before that navel and
tongue rings and such were just not in the regulations
and were causing many a First Sergeant quite a
headache.

>
> Vale,
>
> G.Iulia Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Tattoo's in Ancient

Rome

>
>
> Salve,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:
>
> >Salvete omnes,
> >
> >It was previously mentioned that tatoos were for

slaves and

> >criminals in Ancient Rome and the Jewish people

frowned on them.

> >I noticed that even today they are discouraged in

the professional

> >fields and offices. Even in the military I do not

remember seeing

> >them hardly at all in the comissioned officers'

ranks.

> >
> >
> True, the are regarded as being "unprofessional"

in the US armed force's

> officer corps (as are moustaches interestingly

enough...), but they are

> very common in the enlisted and NCO ranks. This is

partially due to the

> demographics of the enlisted ranks (you see a lot

of cross or Jesus

> motif tattoos on Hispanic and Irish Catholics) and

partially due to the

> nature of military "tribal" culture (most Marines

I know sport the globe

> and anchor somewhere on thier body).
> I picked up my first tattoo at 19 during my first

tour in Korea (along

> with a number of my platoon mates). =)
>
> Vale,
>
> Hadrianus
>
> >Still, in the right areas and artistcally done

yet subtle they can

> >look quite sexy on a woman... but that's just my

opinion.

> >
> >Funny how Caligula, in the Robe and Demitrius

started persecuting

> >the Christians when there sect was probably

unheard of and spread no

> >more than about 30 miles out of Bethlehem! There

was still Claudius'

> >reign to come before Nero.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >QLP
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an

email to:

> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>
>
>

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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]
=== Message Truncated ===


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Papinianus M. Hortensia salutem!

Since you are an American lawyer (and have access to a good library)
maybe you can enlighten me on the legal status of NR. Apollonius told
me it is incorporated as a non-profit educational company in the
U.S.A., in the state of Maine. What legal consequences does this
have? I must confess I dont know the first thing about US law
(Corporate or general), but maybe you can recommend a good book?
Or better still, show me the ropes yourself?

I will gladly accept any help I can get. Maybe we should not discuss
this latter on the Law list, but - if you like - in private, since it
doesnt concern NR matters.

Vale.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> M. Hortensia C. Aemilio, Q. Hortensio, M. Octavio salutem dicit;
> Please forgive the lateness of my reply as I've just
> returned from a non-Roman buddhist retreat;-). But I do wish to
> welcome the new cives- Nova Roma is a wonderful place. And a
> special 'ave' to the new member of the gens Hortensia, naturally a
> place where I hope lawyers and oraters abound.
> C. Aemili, as my good friend & law praeceptor Cordus has
> pointed out, I also have an interest in Roman law. I graduated from
> American law school and once in NR naturally took the name of the
> only female jurist in the Republic (for one all too brief moment)
> and am happily going to read my way through some nice tomes now
that
> I have access to a first rate university library.
> I don't know if market days are lively, but there is an NR
> laws list still in effect, at least there was and we can have happy
> discussions there.
> So welcome! It's wonderful to have you among us!
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
> Caput Officina Censoris
> Iuriis et Investigatio
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > A. Apollonius M. Octavio Q. Hortensio C. Aemilio
> > omnibus sal.
> >
> > Welcome, three new citizens! I hope you all find your
> > places here and stay with us for many years.
> >
> > M. Octavi, I'm glad you persevered to overcome the
> > difficulties with your name. I hope you've got in
> > touch with Cato - he's an excellent fellow and will
> > make you feel very welcome.
> >
> > Q. Hortensi - ah, your namesake was a great man
> > indeed. What a wonder it must have been to see him
> > opposing Cicero in court. Indeed there's a story that
> > they once swapped sides before a court-case so that
> > Hortensius could go first and get away early to keep
> > another appointment! If you're as successful and
> > well-loved in our republic as he was in his, you'll be
> > doing very well indeed.
> >
> > Salve C. Aemili. I'm an amateur historian with a
> > particular interest in Roman law - particularly,
> > though it may dismay you to hear it, republican Roman
> > law. Our fellow-citizen C. Julius Scaurus is a
> > professional epigrapher and very learned in Roman law
> > and religion, but regrettably he has of late withdrawn
> > from public life and is very rarely heard from. A
> > relatively new citizen, A. Sempronius Regulus, has
> > similar credentials, but he's been very quiet too
> > lately, I don't know why. M. Hortensia Major takes an
> > interest in such things, and there are several
> > citizens who know more about Roman law than they knew
> > in the spring, because I've been teaching it to them
> > in a little course in our Academia. So we have more
> > than enough for a collegium if you want one! There is
> > already an e-mail list - NovaRomaLaws@yahoogroups.com
> > - which plays host to discussions about both ancient
> > and modern Roman law (by "modern Roman law" of course
> > I mean that of our republic), though it has been quiet
> > lately.
> >
> > So, welcome all of you. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> > snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

Shirts are tucked in our PTs, so if your uniform fits that is not when it is seen... but it is hard to hide in the shower.

Plus certain posts/divisions have a tatoo disclosure policy and all tatoos are checked for extremist/gang motifs (incidents at Fort BRagg in the 90s spurred that).

No offense, the NYPD is a bit smaller demographic that the entirety of the U.S Army + Reserve forces, plus you can get in a world of trouble if you reffered to your Commanding Officers tramp stamp.

On another note, there seems to be a lot of branding that guys are getting in fraternities...now from my paltry historical knowledge I can't recount where that started. I mean as in a positive way as opposed to being a slave.

----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Tattoos in Ancient Rome


No offense to anyone but here in the NYPD we call the
infamous lower back tatoo a TRAMP STAMP. Not a good
thing to show off in a PT uniform!
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <vxgbhd@...>
wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Did time change for the Romans after being exposed
to cultures who did ritual/social tattooing? I am
think of some of the European tribes as well as
Africa, the Near and Mid East
>
> I see the military officer motioned quite a bit. At
one time, none had any "ink" or at least hid it.
Currently (at least in the U.S. army), you can see
quite a few officers with tattoos, often acquired
while in university. (12 of us in my officer basic
course went and got tattoos together before
graduation. Silly LTs)
>
> This also seemed to be influenced a bit by post or
Division as well. There are quite a number of female
officers sporting the ankle or lower back tattoo. In
fact tattoos and piercing became common enough in all
ranks to update and amend the policies in the dress
code during the mid-90s. Seems before that navel and
tongue rings and such were just not in the regulations
and were causing many a First Sergeant quite a
headache.
>
> Vale,
>
> G.Iulia Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Tattoo's in Ancient
Rome
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:
>
> >Salvete omnes,
> >
> >It was previously mentioned that tatoos were for
slaves and
> >criminals in Ancient Rome and the Jewish people
frowned on them.
> >I noticed that even today they are discouraged in
the professional
> >fields and offices. Even in the military I do not
remember seeing
> >them hardly at all in the comissioned officers'
ranks.
> >
> >
> True, the are regarded as being "unprofessional"
in the US armed force's
> officer corps (as are moustaches interestingly
enough...), but they are
> very common in the enlisted and NCO ranks. This is
partially due to the
> demographics of the enlisted ranks (you see a lot
of cross or Jesus
> motif tattoos on Hispanic and Irish Catholics) and
partially due to the
> nature of military "tribal" culture (most Marines
I know sport the globe
> and anchor somewhere on thier body).
> I picked up my first tattoo at 19 during my first
tour in Korea (along
> with a number of my platoon mates). =)
>
> Vale,
>
> Hadrianus
>
> >Still, in the right areas and artistcally done
yet subtle they can
> >look quite sexy on a woman... but that's just my
opinion.
> >
> >Funny how Caligula, in the Robe and Demitrius
started persecuting
> >the Christians when there sect was probably
unheard of and spread no
> >more than about 30 miles out of Bethlehem! There
was still Claudius'
> >reign to come before Nero.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >QLP
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
=== Message Truncated ===


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaia Iulia Felix;

In response to your question, normally a minimum of five citizens make up a number who can apply for the recognition of a Province. As Nova Roma grows it is understood that political and cultural conditions may apply in certain conditions and given localities.

For my part I would suggest that you take steps to get another four people into Nova Roma as Ciotizens if that has not alreadybeen done. Then between yourselves make a determination of geographical limits that you can live with , travel in, and work within. Then of the five citizens or more (as you have the interest) indicate which one will be nominated as the ProPraetor of the Province. Provide this information to the Consuls, telling them what your desres are, and why Nova Roma will benefit from your request.

The Consuls will review the proposal and if suitable and apparently doable, will submit the proposal to the Senate for a decision. The Senate will debate/discuss the proposal before the vote and it would be to your advantage to have a Senator able to answer the questions from the Senate as a group.

As top your question about what you could do, I would uggestany or all of the following:

--Face to Face Meeting with all Citizens to determine who will be on the Staff of the ProPraetor;

--Engage in events, such as a Roman Feast, looking into Roman Museum Displays, reviewing Archaelogical Digs, , and Cultural disussions of interest to you;

--Set up an event of your own;

--Do research on your own or join any one or more of the Sodalitas in Nova Roma:

For The Muses, Geographicae, Latin, Militarium, Virtues, Philosophy, Religio, and write or present aspects of these and other activities fromyour culture, which is very different from the Western World

--Submit articles to"Aquila" for pulcation;

--Start a Provincial Newsletter oline;

--Select people in your group of citizens as people who are responsioble for looking into any of the areas of interest in your Province, and get that informatio out to the world of Nova Roma.

I am sure that there are many other ideas in the minds of the many many Nova Romans who are willing to assist you in this.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens
Senator and ProConsul

Salve!
Thanks once more to all that have greeted me!
Vale,
Marcus Octavius Roseaus
Not yet a citizen but glad to be part of ROME RISING... :)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "numerius2002" <numerius2002@y...>
wrote:

> Papinianus M. Hortensia salutem!
>
> Since you are an American lawyer (and have access to a good

library)

> maybe you can enlighten me on the legal status of NR. Apollonius

told

> me it is incorporated as a non-profit educational company in the
> U.S.A., in the state of Maine. What legal consequences does this
> have? I must confess I dont know the first thing about US law
> (Corporate or general), but maybe you can recommend a good book?
> Or better still, show me the ropes yourself?
>
> I will gladly accept any help I can get. Maybe we should not

discuss

> this latter on the Law list, but - if you like - in private, since

it

> doesnt concern NR matters.
>
> Vale.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > M. Hortensia C. Aemilio, Q. Hortensio, M. Octavio salutem dicit;
> > Please forgive the lateness of my reply as I've just
> > returned from a non-Roman buddhist retreat;-). But I do wish to
> > welcome the new cives- Nova Roma is a wonderful place. And a
> > special 'ave' to the new member of the gens Hortensia, naturally

a

> > place where I hope lawyers and oraters abound.
> > C. Aemili, as my good friend & law praeceptor Cordus has
> > pointed out, I also have an interest in Roman law. I graduated

from

> > American law school and once in NR naturally took the name of the
> > only female jurist in the Republic (for one all too brief moment)
> > and am happily going to read my way through some nice tomes now
> that
> > I have access to a first rate university library.
> > I don't know if market days are lively, but there is an NR
> > laws list still in effect, at least there was and we can have

happy

> > discussions there.
> > So welcome! It's wonderful to have you among us!
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
> > Caput Officina Censoris
> > Iuriis et Investigatio
> >
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> > <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > > A. Apollonius M. Octavio Q. Hortensio C. Aemilio
> > > omnibus sal.
> > >
> > > Welcome, three new citizens! I hope you all find your
> > > places here and stay with us for many years.
> > >
> > > M. Octavi, I'm glad you persevered to overcome the
> > > difficulties with your name. I hope you've got in
> > > touch with Cato - he's an excellent fellow and will
> > > make you feel very welcome.
> > >
> > > Q. Hortensi - ah, your namesake was a great man
> > > indeed. What a wonder it must have been to see him
> > > opposing Cicero in court. Indeed there's a story that
> > > they once swapped sides before a court-case so that
> > > Hortensius could go first and get away early to keep
> > > another appointment! If you're as successful and
> > > well-loved in our republic as he was in his, you'll be
> > > doing very well indeed.
> > >
> > > Salve C. Aemili. I'm an amateur historian with a
> > > particular interest in Roman law - particularly,
> > > though it may dismay you to hear it, republican Roman
> > > law. Our fellow-citizen C. Julius Scaurus is a
> > > professional epigrapher and very learned in Roman law
> > > and religion, but regrettably he has of late withdrawn
> > > from public life and is very rarely heard from. A
> > > relatively new citizen, A. Sempronius Regulus, has
> > > similar credentials, but he's been very quiet too
> > > lately, I don't know why. M. Hortensia Major takes an
> > > interest in such things, and there are several
> > > citizens who know more about Roman law than they knew
> > > in the spring, because I've been teaching it to them
> > > in a little course in our Academia. So we have more
> > > than enough for a collegium if you want one! There is
> > > already an e-mail list - NovaRomaLaws@yahoogroups.com
> > > - which plays host to discussions about both ancient
> > > and modern Roman law (by "modern Roman law" of course
> > > I mean that of our republic), though it has been quiet
> > > lately.
> > >
> > > So, welcome all of you. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> > > snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

How do I just stop being a citizen and get out? I'm not paying
$13.00
to be a citizen of this group. I joined to be among people who could
help me learn a little more Latin than I do now. Any help is
appreciated.

D

Salvete, quirites, socii, peregrinique omnes, praesertim "D."

> How do I just stop being a citizen and get out? I'm not paying
> $13.00
> to be a citizen of this group. I joined to be among people who could
> help me learn a little more Latin than I do now. Any help is
> appreciated.

I have answered this person privately as this message was duplicated and
its twin intercepted before filling up the members' mailboxes. The tax is
voluntary, and Latin is best learned at the Academia and in the Sodalitas
Latinitatis, in case anyone else is interested.

There are procedures for resigning citizenship, but such extremities
seem unnecesarry in this case.

>
> D
>
>

Vale, et valete,

Flavia Tullia Scholastica

Maior Papiano optimo suo spd;
Salve; well first let me say that I've lived in Hibernia a
number of years and turned from the law to writing novels and now
entering graduate school so my information is sadly out of date.
Usually non-profits in America have tax consequences,
meanining if I donate to NR in the U.S. I can write it off my taxes.
There are other things as well pertaining to running non-profits and
the current laws, if you like I can look through the law library
database if that is your interest or corporate law. But in the U.S
this is taught by the 'case method' where the books are just
compilations of legal cases and you must present them and tease out
the legal issues - actually very fascinating!
My good friend A. Apollonius Cordus just gave a course in Roman
Law over at Academia Thules which should be of some interest to you.
Are you based in Germania? I just left some good friends who
live there and I am trying to restore the German I learned as a
child,
anyway feel free to write to me offlist if you like, I'm more than
happy to help,
optime vale
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
Caput Officina Censoris
Iuriis et Inuestigatio CFBQ


What legal consequences does this

> have? I must confess I dont know the first thing about US law
> (Corporate or general), but maybe you can recommend a good book?
> Or better still, show me the ropes yourself?
>
> I will gladly accept any help I can get. Maybe we should not

discuss

> this latter on the Law list, but - if you like - in private, since

it

> doesnt concern NR matters.
>
> Vale.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > M. Hortensia C. Aemilio, Q. Hortensio, M. Octavio salutem dicit;
> > Please forgive the lateness of my reply as I've just
> > returned from a non-Roman buddhist retreat;-). But I do wish to
> > welcome the new cives- Nova Roma is a wonderful place. And a
> > special 'ave' to the new member of the gens Hortensia, naturally

a

> > place where I hope lawyers and oraters abound.
> > C. Aemili, as my good friend & law praeceptor Cordus has
> > pointed out, I also have an interest in Roman law. I graduated

from

> > American law school and once in NR naturally took the name of

the

> > only female jurist in the Republic (for one all too brief

moment)

> > and am happily going to read my way through some nice tomes now
> that
> > I have access to a first rate university library.
> > I don't know if market days are lively, but there is an NR
> > laws list still in effect, at least there was and we can have

happy

> > discussions there.
> > So welcome! It's wonderful to have you among us!
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
> > Caput Officina Censoris
> > Iuriis et Investigatio
> >
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> > <a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:
> > > A. Apollonius M. Octavio Q. Hortensio C. Aemilio
> > > omnibus sal.
> > >
> > > Welcome, three new citizens! I hope you all find your
> > > places here and stay with us for many years.
> > >
> > > M. Octavi, I'm glad you persevered to overcome the
> > > difficulties with your name. I hope you've got in
> > > touch with Cato - he's an excellent fellow and will
> > > make you feel very welcome.
> > >
> > > Q. Hortensi - ah, your namesake was a great man
> > > indeed. What a wonder it must have been to see him
> > > opposing Cicero in court. Indeed there's a story that
> > > they once swapped sides before a court-case so that
> > > Hortensius could go first and get away early to keep
> > > another appointment! If you're as successful and
> > > well-loved in our republic as he was in his, you'll be
> > > doing very well indeed.
> > >
> > > Salve C. Aemili. I'm an amateur historian with a
> > > particular interest in Roman law - particularly,
> > > though it may dismay you to hear it, republican Roman
> > > law. Our fellow-citizen C. Julius Scaurus is a
> > > professional epigrapher and very learned in Roman law
> > > and religion, but regrettably he has of late withdrawn
> > > from public life and is very rarely heard from. A
> > > relatively new citizen, A. Sempronius Regulus, has
> > > similar credentials, but he's been very quiet too
> > > lately, I don't know why. M. Hortensia Major takes an
> > > interest in such things, and there are several
> > > citizens who know more about Roman law than they knew
> > > in the spring, because I've been teaching it to them
> > > in a little course in our Academia. So we have more
> > > than enough for a collegium if you want one! There is
> > > already an e-mail list - NovaRomaLaws@yahoogroups.com
> > > - which plays host to discussions about both ancient
> > > and modern Roman law (by "modern Roman law" of course
> > > I mean that of our republic), though it has been quiet
> > > lately.
> > >
> > > So, welcome all of you. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
> > > snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

VICESIMA QUARTA
The Newsletter of
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA

JULY 2005

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Praefectus - Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
610-353-4982
legionxxiv@... www.legionxxiv.org

Commilitones

ADVENAE - Newcomers
*** Christopher DiDomenico, Decimus Dexius Cicero greendevil321@... is from Levittown, PA. He has a great love for the Roman military and hopes to become an active legionary.
*** Amanda Prisk, Ausonius Juventia Priscia amandaprisk@... comes to us from Washington, NJ. She is an accomplished horse rider and is studying veterinary medicine at Cornell University in Ithica, NY. She has some reenactment experience and could be an asset to the Legion doing a mounted auxiliary impression?

FORT MEIGS - AFTER ACTION
The annual time-line event at the historic and restored 1812 era Fort Meigs in Perrysburg, Ohio, on June 18 & 19, turned out to be one of the best events the Legion has participated in. The weather was perfect, warm, dry and not humid! The venue was excellent, providing an authentic environment of palisade walls, gates, block houses and berms for picture backgrounds and a general feeling of being quartered within a Roman castra fort of long ago. Our Mid-West Vexillation Optio, Quintus Fabricius Varus (David Smith) had things well in hand and was the commander of record for the event. Other members present from the Mid-West Vexillation were John Shook, Steven Boiesmeister-Stephanus Parthius, pilum tosser extraordinaire,
Matthew Borowski?

Joe Perz, Marcus Germanicus Hadrianus, from Amherstburg, Ontario, was present in his centurion outfit and took pleasure in posing for pictures as our display centurion, as well as assisting in talking to the public.
Chris Goshey, one of our up and coming recruits, made the 8 hour drive to be with your Commander at "Meigs" and he took part with John Shook's auxiliaries.
Optio Varus put the troops through a daily Latin drill routine and marched the unit through the other encampments displaying the presence and glory of Rome. He also provided a Roman supper, as well as snacks for munching through the day. One of our troopers (ID withheld to protect the guilty one) was assigned KP punishment "pots and pans" duty when he defected to another unit after supper for an impromptu battle. Pila tossing practice, gladius drills and hard contact engagement exercises took place from time to time during the two day event, much to the public's enjoyment.

Our encampment was quite impressive with six tents and flies, two Aquila standards, two Vexillum banners, two Signum standards, an Amagio and numerous sudus stakes and other equipment.
The upgraded catapulta was field tested and proved quite capable of chucking SCA plastic bolts over 200 feet. Lack of a protected shooting range precluded the use of the more serious "live round" iron tipped arrow bolts. More distance may be possible, but this could place undue stress on the "engine's" components, so for now, 200+ feet will be the norm. A couple of posed picture opportunities were set-up in the camp and with the catapulta. Look for them on the Legion Site in the future.
Dan Peterson was to be present with his impressive display and collection of gear, but declined to come - a disappointment to say the least.

ROMAN MARKET DAYS - JULY 9 & 10 - AFTER ACTION
Roman Market Days 2005 was set for July 9th and 10th, 10AM - 4PM, in Wells, Maine. This year's event was in conjunction with the town's "Harborfest" event which has been run by the local chamber of commerce for the last six years. Since this was during the prime tourist season the event was expected to be well attended.
The Roman Market Days portion took up a large back area of the event. There was plenty of room for the gladiators, legion encampments and siege equipment.
Rebecca East, author of the novel "A. D. 62: Pompeii", was present to autograph copies of her novel "Pompeii 62 AD" (www.rebecca-east.com). Jason Klein: Glassblower had an impressive display of hand created vessels, plates and other decorative glass wear. LaWren's Nest and various other sutlers were looking for business from Rome as well as from more modern cultures.
The rain from the remains of tropical storm "Cindy" precluded setting up very much on Friday afternoon or evening.
Senator Auden's tent was put-up and the Legion XXIV camp site was defined with sudus stakes, after which we retired to the "Mainiac" Restaurant for dinner.

The event got off to a delayed start on Saturday after lingering drizzle finally moved away by 11AM and the weather steadily improved through the day. Several musters and marches were conducted around the quadrangle under direction of Legio III Cyrenaica Optio Patricius Attacottus Vallavantinius (Mike Heenan), who was elevated to Centurio status in a ceremony conducted by Senator Audens. Field maneuvers, pila tosses and a pila contest also took place. The Legion XXIV catapulta was in good form and thrilled the public with long shots of SCA play ammo, serious "live round" arrow bolts and small, but nasty Dura-Europos style arrow darts made from the mini-bats you can buy at baseball parks. See www.legionxxiv.org/catapulta The crowds were rather heavy on Saturday and during the afternoon field drills, a plane towing a banner proclaiming "Roman Market Days" appeared over the park.

On Saturday evening, a Toga/Tunic Party was held at the Villa Philippus, where everyone was greeted by a fierce little Chawawa with an attitude, who sounded as if he would tear your leg off. This feast is an annual event hosted by Marcus Cassius Philippus and his wife Kathy to honor all the re-enactors, some of which travel quite far to attend Market Days. Rich & Randi entertained everyone with their hilarious renditions of Monty Python's "Life of Bryan" and Mel Brook's "History of the World Part I". Many a hearty toast with unwatered wine was had for the wonderful future of Nova Roma, Nova Britannia and Re-enactment events like this one.

Sunday dawned mostly clear and hot, but with reduced humidity. The attendance was markedly less, probably because many who did not get to the beach on Saturday, went there on Sunday. The bugs however, were around in great numbers and your Commander, and probably others as well, were scratching and tending to bites and welts for several days after the event.
This was the second time this event was held at the Wells Harbor Park and next year's festival could be even better.
The Market Days event was organized by Nova Roma co-founder and Proconsul Marcus Cassius Julianus (Will Bradford) and his wife, Patricia Cassia. She is also a co-founder of Nova Roma and one of its Senators. Our thanks and a sincere "Well-Done" is extended to both of them for the great time had by all.
Rich Croteau narrowly beat Philippus at the Pilus throwing contest, winning a much coveted golden coronet.
Proconsul Auden's booming politician's voice was heard by all throughout the entire weekend. He answered all the barbarian/tourist questions diplomatically, no matter how silly they were, as well as introducing all the major presentations with great dignitas.

Also in attendance to best of my recollection were:
Proconsul and Senator Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens (James Mathews) and his wife Margaret,
Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, Legate of Vermont Regio, along with a couple of toga wearing patricians,
Nova Roma's official Latin Translator, Flavia Tullia (Nancy Bowles).
Legion XXIV was represented by legionnaire Marcus Quintius Clavus (Quinton Johanson ), Senator Marcus Audens (James Matthews) and of course your Commander.
The host Legion III Cyrenaica members were Centurio/Optio Patricius Attacottus Vallavantinius (Mike Heenan) and his wife,
Theodora (Marie), Miles Randi, Miles Marcus Cassius Philippus (Phil Perez), his wife Kathy and two daughters
Miles Andy Volpe - Higgins Armour Museum's own "Roman Dude", Auxiliary Rich Croteau and his huge barbarian auxiliary son,
as well as another large barbarian auxiliary.
Legio XXX was also represented by a member and we even had a token Celt, who the Legionnaires took turns abusing.

The Ludus Magnus Gladiatorial Group: Primus Pilus and Thracian / Murmillo, Maximus Mercurius Gladius (John Ebel - who beat the tar out of Phillipus in the sand arena), Greek Hoplomachus Gaius, Provocateur Lupus Britanicus (Mike Catellier), Secutor
Petronius and his net wielding father Retiarius Aulus Scipio Barbatus and the Ludus-Magnus's own gorgeous gladiatrixes who shall remain unnamed here to protect their modesty (for now :-), unfortunately there was no wardrobe malfunctions (this time). The Ludus Magnus's Games chilled everyone's blood, especially the death match between Maximus and the his Killer Retiarius Barbatus. The bloody mess they made of themselves caused many in the audience to gasp and some ladies to faint. Maximus was forced to deal with a drunken Legionnaire (Philippus) that continuously harassed and heckled his Ludus from the audience by a challenge match that ended in the coming together of all the gladiators and legionnaires in a seldom witnessed scene of comradery between the two.

Sutlers were: Lawrence and wench Heidi of LaWrens Nest, Pompeii AD 62 author Rebecca East and her husband, and Ceramicist Vegetia and her husband Dino, and Jason Klein of Historical Glassworks.Com .
The event was a long trip for some, but a great experience for All ! Roman Market Days 2006 will be July 8-9 - Can't Wait!


SPECIAL ROMAN EVENT IN OTTAWA - AUGUST 6 & 7
The Canadian Museum of Civilization, in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada is organizing a huge exhibit on Pompeii at the time of the eruption of the "Vesuvius" Volcano in 79AD. They are asking to have Roman reenactors, both military and civilian, for the weekend of August 6 & 7. I do know that for many of you, including myself, that is right after the weekend at Fort Malden in Amherstburg Ontario. However, it has been worked out that a limited number participants, on a "first come" basis will be compensated.
Three meals a day will be provided, and not just hot dogs, including underaged participants.

Secondly, arrangements are being made to accommodate most if not all with a room to sleep in, children participating as reenactors included. A financial compensation will be provided for adult participants. Bring everything you can, as we will need to be showing as much equipment as possible for this two day event. The museum will supply bails of hay for pilum shooting range and encampment. The Museum wants demos on pilae throwing and two maneuver demos daily. One at 11:00am and one at 2:00pm both Saturday and Sunday. For those who do not really know Ottawa well, the Museum is one of the biggest in Eastern Canada. It attracts about 10 million visitors per year and this special event will be no exception. Usually they attract thousands of interested people for that weekend alone. Please contact Marcus Darius Firmitus / "Marc Sarault" at 613-859-8289 for more details and questions, and to book your place as an individual or as a cohort or even as a legion. In return for the much appreciated Canadian hospitality in the past, Legion XXIV is expecting and should have a major presence at this event.

TIME LINE at CHARLESTOWN, NH SEPT 24-25
Ed Jadaszewski would like to put out an invitation to a time line event at "The Fort at #4" this September 24-25, 2005.
The event is in Charlestown, New Hampshire on the New Hampshire/Vermont border. The site is beautiful and reenactment-friendly, and they hope to make this an annual event. Suttlers and any kinds of period demos are also welcomed, and of
course camping and campfires are permitted. For more information, the website is http://www.fortat4.com , and please contact Eric if you are interested, jrjada@....

CASTRA ROMANA NOV. 4 - 6
From Rusty Myers, Justus Rustius Longinus, 843-437-5587 justuslonginus@... of Legio VI Ferrata Fidelas Constans.


Knowing it is a bit of a drive for most, we are pulling out all the stops (including lots of new stuff!!) to make this an experience you will not want to miss, and will never forget!

While this event will be advertised and open to the public, our primary goal is to provide a unique experience to our participants. To this end we have a great number of events which will interest the Roman Reenactor, be they soldier or civilian! This will include a period smithy, Roman Vendors, potter, baker, Presentations, and more. If you have a unique impression you would like to bring and add, please contact us. There is no cost to our participants for any of the events they can participate in or for the encampment itself. The last years have been an outstanding success, and this year will be even better!

Soldiers will get the opportunity to drill and train with double weighted weapons, throw live pila on the pila range, practice live sword (against a post of course!), in addition to participating in Needlefelt mock combat both on the drill field for spectators Saturday, and in the woods on Sunday, you will see the Gladiators in the arena in daylight, and at a special torchlight nighttime match just before the Grand Convivia! We will also have Military Games, a 1.5 mile road march (there are Celts about... bring your Needlefelts), guard mount, pay issue (yes, you will get your 75 Denarii... minus a bit for the Centurion...), and more.

The highlight of the event will be the Centurios Convivium, a grande Roman Banquet prepared by our gourmet Roman Chef the Lady Helvia Elena Claudilla, and hosted by the Centurio. Ask anyone about our feast! The food alone is worth the drive!

Average Temperature in November in South Carolina is 65-75 degrees. In addition there are few if any events on the calendar for that period of time. Plus the mosquitoes are mostly dead! Legio VI will be onsite Thursday the 3rd to Monday the 7th, but you should try to arrive sometime Thursday or Friday unless you are setting up a special event or station. Re-enacting events start Friday night. Vendors are welcome to set up a display, but we ask that they remain in period as much as they are able, and you must contact us as soon as possible. We have limited room for vendors, but will endeavor to accommodate you in the period market, or vendor row. Remember this event is being planned for the participants, so we need you to attend! Please RSVP via EMAIL by October 1st with firm numbers if at all possible (this is so we can plan the feast).

It is our sincerest hope you will plan to attend. We will have an excellent time, and want you to be there to celebrate the growth of Roman Living Archeology, at the best Castra Romana EVER!










FOR SALE
Charles Pecquet of Legion XX is selling his kit as a set, with an asking price of $1500. Deepeeka Gallic H helmet (a good one, before they ruined the back!), Museum Replicas "Newstead" lorica, plus scutum, Pompeii gladius, tunic, caligae, belt with pugio, pilum, cloak with pin, pack pole and bag, and a canteen. Contact him for photos and more details, thepecquets@...
or 504-276-9001.


LOOKING FOR HISTORICAL DECORATIVE GLASS ?
Jason Klein may have what you are looking for. He was at Roman Days and Market Days and had an impressive display of hand blown and hand created glass, bowls and plates. Contact him at www.historicalglassworks.com 904-476-8680

AND PLEASE REMEMBER to keep me updated on your e-mail, phone and other address info. If your e-mail
goes bad and I don't have any other info, you become "MIA" "Missing in Action", or more likely "Inaction"
and I do have a number of those, way too many, already.
Please advise me of your status and continued interest in the Legion? legionxxiv@...
Thank you for your attention to this.

UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS for LEGION XXIV and OTHER EVENTS for 2005
*** July 30-31 Annual Fort Malden Military Days, Amherstburg, Ontario
*** August 6-7 Major Roman Event at Canadian Museum of Civilization in Ottawa, Canada
Marc Sarault (Marcus Darius) 613-859-8289 or marcus_darius_firmitus@...
*** September 24-25 Time Line Event at Fort #4, Charlestown, NH contact Eric, jrjada@....
*** October 22-23 Possible Ren Faire appearance, Waterloo Village, Netcong, NJ, I-80-exit 25 11AM-5PM
*** November 4-6 Castra Romana of Legio VI Ferrata Fidelas Constans, Givhans State Park in South Carolina.
Rusty Myers, Justus Rustius Longinus, 843-437-5587 justuslonginus@...


Thanking you for your continued support of Legion XXIV, I remain;

Yours in the Bonds of Ancient Rome

Gallio / George



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

I thought I would put this article here from Sodalista Coq et Coq,
where food, drink amd merriment are discussed:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/?yguid=115252440

We have got some great ancient recepie ideas over the last few
years. Everyone is welcome according to its owner!


I am afraid I cannot face the day without a coffee. Based on that, I
always wondered what the Romans would have drunk, especially those
living or stationed in colder Northern Europe. From what I read, the
legions of Caesar drank vinegar although I am not sure if they drank
it hot.

As I was on a healthier eating kick a while back I did eliminate
coffee foe a while and took some apple cider vinegar mixed with
honey and diluted with hot water. I must say that I felt a warm
sensation and a slight energy buzz before venturing out into the
cold but taking it straight without a snanck first gave me a gut
ache.

Here is an interesting article on vinegar written partially on a
medical point of view:

Vinegar

Vinegar, I would venture to say, is something found in everyone's
home. Most people use it for cooking purposes, and of course we all
know it is great for mixing with water and washing the windows. It
is amazing how little the average individual knows of this wondrous
product. This little treatise will inform you of everything you need
to know, from how it is derived to its many uses.

Vinegar is described in the dictionary as an acid liquid obtained
from an alcoholic liquid, as cider, by oxidation, as an acetous
fermentation: used as a condiment and as a preservative. It is the
product of two biochemical processes.

Alcoholic fermentation, which changes natural, sugars into alcohol.
Acid fermentation in which acetobacter, a group bacteria, converts
the alcohol portion into acid.
There are four basic types of vinegar;

Distilled vinegar made by the acid fermentation of distilled
alcohol. This is the white vinegar you can probably find in your
house now.
Malt vinegar fermented from barley malt or other grains that can be
converted to maltose (known as C12 H22 011 H20, the chemical
formula.
Vinegar made from sugar, a two-step fermentation of sugar or
molasses.
Vinegar that is made from juices in a two-step fermentation process.
Apple juice is the juice of choice and most commonly used. However,
other fruits such as peaches, grapes, and berries can be used as
well.
Extremely popular vinegar, most everyone knows and usually found in
restaurants, is Balsamic vinegar. The process of producing Balsamic
vinegar begins with crushing grapes and concentrating the juice over
an open flame. This produces what is called "must". The "must" is
then fermented with yeast to produce alcohol, and is again fermented
by the "madre" culture, producing the Balsamic vinegar we know so
well. The entire process occurs in wooden barrels and as the liquid
evaporates over time, it is then transferred to smaller barrels. It
is these wooden barrels that what will give the vinegar its unique
aromatic taste.

Some very interesting stories that are attributed to the use of
vinegar since it was discovered approximately 10,000 years ago. No
one knows who discovered it, but it probably occurred by accident.
Vinegar means sour wine, so what probably happened was that some
wine turned sour and vinegar was born. There are references to the
healing and soothing properties of vinegar in the Bible. Vinegar was
not permitted to be used by commoners, but was only permitted for
use by the nobility by decree.

Roman legionnaires used vinegar as a beverage. They must have had
strong stomachs. In Babylonian times it was used as an herb flavored
condiment. Cleopatra is attributed to making a wager that she could
consume a fortune in a single meal. She won her bet by dissolving
precious pearls in vinegar and consumed the liquid with her meal. It
was a dinner fit for a queen.

When Hannibal had to cross the Alps, there were boulders that
obstructed his path. He found an ingenious way to overcome that
obstacle. He had the boulders heated and then drenched with vinegar,
causing them to crack and crumble so that they were easily cleared
aside. One of the most interesting facts is that Hippocrates, the
father of medicine spoke very highly of using vinegar as a remedy
for many ills. The Egyptians used vinegar for medicinal purposes for
a great many ills.

The uses for vinegar are many, and some new use is always being
found. These are just some that can be used at home for our daily
chores.

Clean windows by using a mixture of water and vinegar.

Dampen a cloth with vinegar to remove stains from chrome and
stainless steel.

Wipe shower walls and door with vinegar-soaked cloth to remove and
prevent mildew and mold from growing.

Use water and vinegar to rinse glasses and dishes to remove film and
spots.

Add vinegar instead of water to the coffee maker and run the cycle.
Then add plain water and run through cycle again to rinse. Will
remove buildup of scale.

To remove scale from teakettle, add water and vinegar and let stand
overnight.

To clean a hardened paint brush, let it simmer in boiling water and
rinse in very hot soapy water.

Wipe your oven frequently with vinegar, that will help prevent a
buildup of grease, making cleaning much easier.

Adding a little vinegar to the water will make cleaning your car
easier and make it shine.

When seats in cane chairs start to sag use a solution of half water
and half vinegar. Heat solution until hot, then sponge the seats and
place outdoors in the sun to dry.

Add a little vinegar to the water when mopping tile floors. It will
make them shine and also act as a deodorant and prevent mold and
mildew.

In the kitchen and the preparing of foods, there are many uses as
well.

Rinse your fruits and vegetables in a solution of vinegar and water
before eating or preparing the food for cooking.

Make a better piecrust by adding 1 tablespoon of vinegar to recipe.
The crust will be flakier.

Add a little vinegar when boiling eggs. If there are cracks in the
egg, it will prevent the whites from leaking out.

Add a teaspoon of vinegar when poaching eggs to prevent separation.

When canning or preserving foods, wipe the jars with vinegar. That
will prevent the buildup of mold producing bacteria.

To improve the taste of fish when cooking, rinse in a solution of
vinegar and water. Much of the fishy taste and odor will be removed.

A spoon full of vinegar added to the water when cooking cauliflower
will make it whiter, and when cooking green vegetables, it will make
them greener.

Adding a tablespoon of vinegar to gelatin will make it firmer.

Add a 1/8 to ¼ cup of cider vinegar when soaking beans to remove the
gas from the beans.

Cabbage odor can be removed when cooking cabbage by adding some
vinegar to the water.

To prevent mold from the end of an uncooked ham, just rub some
vinegar on it.

To make a real fluffy meringue, add one teaspoon of vinegar to 3 egg
whites.

Adding vinegar to the water when boiling a ham will remove the salty
taste and improve the flavor.

New Englanders put vinegar on their French fries. It is also used
that way in the UK.

In health related issues, vinegar has many applications. Some such
uses are.

For skin burns apply ice-cold vinegar immediately. Use cold
compresses by soaking a cloth in vinegar. Using these compresses 3
or 4 times daily. Doing this can prevent blisters from forming.

Add 1/2 cup of vinegar to water in a plastic pan. Use to soak your
feet to soften calluses. Makes trimming toenails and cuticles much
easier.

Add 2 cups of cider vinegar to a hot tub. Makes an excellent soak
for muscle soreness. This reduces the soreness by adding potassium
to the muscles.

One of the best uses is making solution of half vinegar and half
water, this basically is a solution that could be bought
commercially, and was called "Burrow's Solution". It is an excellent
solution to reduce the swelling and inflammation of a sprained
ankle, by applying a cold compress. Use it also for any other injury
that causes pain, swelling, and inflammation.

The versatility of vinegar makes it practically mandatory that all
households have a bottle of white, and a bottle of apple cider
vinegar in the pantry. And you needn't worry about it becoming
outdated or spoiling. It doesn't spoil and can be kept
indefinitely.

Regards,

QLP

C. Minucius Hadrianus S.P.D.

Salvete.

The Roman Legionnaires drank a mix of water and sour wine gone to
vinegar called Posca. I expect it was mostly water - though I haven't
found any record of the exact proportions. It is (allegedly)
refreshing, and the vinegar acts as a sort of disinfectant for water
obtained from potentially dubious sources.

Interestingly enough, if you go to the Perseus Digital Library
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/) and do a keyword search "vinegar" in
Pliny the Elder's Naturalis Historia you get 529 hits (including the
famous Cleopatra and the pearls story)!

Valete bene,

Hadrianus

Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

<snip>

>I am afraid I cannot face the day without a coffee. Based on that, I
>always wondered what the Romans would have drunk, especially those
>living or stationed in colder Northern Europe. From what I read, the
>legions of Caesar drank vinegar although I am not sure if they drank
>it hot.
>
>

<snip>

>
>
>Roman legionnaires used vinegar as a beverage. They must have had
>strong stomachs.
>

Salvete omnes,

I just wanted to remind some citizens in our province about the Latin
course coming up. I cannot open the Thules Academy site on the NR main
webpage. Would someone check that out when you have a chance please?

Regards,

QLP

SALVE QUINTE LANI !

Checked. It works.
The Latin course will start in September. They have to sign up for it at the Academia Thules website.

OPTIME VALE,
IVL SABINVS


"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
Salvete omnes,

I just wanted to remind some citizens in our province about the Latin
course coming up. I cannot open the Thules Academy site on the NR main
webpage. Would someone check that out when you have a chance please?

Regards,

QLP




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Salvete,

One more use for Vinegar: A table spoon (or a hearty gulp) will kill any heart burn, indigestion or acid reflux instantly! I keep a bottle by my bed just in case ;-)

Vires et Honos
Marcus Cassius Philippus

----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:05 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman Beverage - Vinegar


Salvete omnes,

I thought I would put this article here from Sodalista Coq et Coq,
where food, drink amd merriment are discussed:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/?yguid=115252440

We have got some great ancient recepie ideas over the last few
years. Everyone is welcome according to its owner!


I am afraid I cannot face the day without a coffee. Based on that, I
always wondered what the Romans would have drunk, especially those
living or stationed in colder Northern Europe. From what I read, the
legions of Caesar drank vinegar although I am not sure if they drank
it hot.

As I was on a healthier eating kick a while back I did eliminate
coffee foe a while and took some apple cider vinegar mixed with
honey and diluted with hot water. I must say that I felt a warm
sensation and a slight energy buzz before venturing out into the
cold but taking it straight without a snanck first gave me a gut
ache.

Here is an interesting article on vinegar written partially on a
medical point of view:

Vinegar

Vinegar, I would venture to say, is something found in everyone's
home. Most people use it for cooking purposes, and of course we all
know it is great for mixing with water and washing the windows. It
is amazing how little the average individual knows of this wondrous
product. This little treatise will inform you of everything you need
to know, from how it is derived to its many uses.

Vinegar is described in the dictionary as an acid liquid obtained
from an alcoholic liquid, as cider, by oxidation, as an acetous
fermentation: used as a condiment and as a preservative. It is the
product of two biochemical processes.

Alcoholic fermentation, which changes natural, sugars into alcohol.
Acid fermentation in which acetobacter, a group bacteria, converts
the alcohol portion into acid.
There are four basic types of vinegar;

Distilled vinegar made by the acid fermentation of distilled
alcohol. This is the white vinegar you can probably find in your
house now.
Malt vinegar fermented from barley malt or other grains that can be
converted to maltose (known as C12 H22 011 H20, the chemical
formula.
Vinegar made from sugar, a two-step fermentation of sugar or
molasses.
Vinegar that is made from juices in a two-step fermentation process.
Apple juice is the juice of choice and most commonly used. However,
other fruits such as peaches, grapes, and berries can be used as
well.
Extremely popular vinegar, most everyone knows and usually found in
restaurants, is Balsamic vinegar. The process of producing Balsamic
vinegar begins with crushing grapes and concentrating the juice over
an open flame. This produces what is called "must". The "must" is
then fermented with yeast to produce alcohol, and is again fermented
by the "madre" culture, producing the Balsamic vinegar we know so
well. The entire process occurs in wooden barrels and as the liquid
evaporates over time, it is then transferred to smaller barrels. It
is these wooden barrels that what will give the vinegar its unique
aromatic taste.

Some very interesting stories that are attributed to the use of
vinegar since it was discovered approximately 10,000 years ago. No
one knows who discovered it, but it probably occurred by accident.
Vinegar means sour wine, so what probably happened was that some
wine turned sour and vinegar was born. There are references to the
healing and soothing properties of vinegar in the Bible. Vinegar was
not permitted to be used by commoners, but was only permitted for
use by the nobility by decree.

Roman legionnaires used vinegar as a beverage. They must have had
strong stomachs. In Babylonian times it was used as an herb flavored
condiment. Cleopatra is attributed to making a wager that she could
consume a fortune in a single meal. She won her bet by dissolving
precious pearls in vinegar and consumed the liquid with her meal. It
was a dinner fit for a queen.

When Hannibal had to cross the Alps, there were boulders that
obstructed his path. He found an ingenious way to overcome that
obstacle. He had the boulders heated and then drenched with vinegar,
causing them to crack and crumble so that they were easily cleared
aside. One of the most interesting facts is that Hippocrates, the
father of medicine spoke very highly of using vinegar as a remedy
for many ills. The Egyptians used vinegar for medicinal purposes for
a great many ills.

The uses for vinegar are many, and some new use is always being
found. These are just some that can be used at home for our daily
chores.

Clean windows by using a mixture of water and vinegar.

Dampen a cloth with vinegar to remove stains from chrome and
stainless steel.

Wipe shower walls and door with vinegar-soaked cloth to remove and
prevent mildew and mold from growing.

Use water and vinegar to rinse glasses and dishes to remove film and
spots.

Add vinegar instead of water to the coffee maker and run the cycle.
Then add plain water and run through cycle again to rinse. Will
remove buildup of scale.

To remove scale from teakettle, add water and vinegar and let stand
overnight.

To clean a hardened paint brush, let it simmer in boiling water and
rinse in very hot soapy water.

Wipe your oven frequently with vinegar, that will help prevent a
buildup of grease, making cleaning much easier.

Adding a little vinegar to the water will make cleaning your car
easier and make it shine.

When seats in cane chairs start to sag use a solution of half water
and half vinegar. Heat solution until hot, then sponge the seats and
place outdoors in the sun to dry.

Add a little vinegar to the water when mopping tile floors. It will
make them shine and also act as a deodorant and prevent mold and
mildew.

In the kitchen and the preparing of foods, there are many uses as
well.

Rinse your fruits and vegetables in a solution of vinegar and water
before eating or preparing the food for cooking.

Make a better piecrust by adding 1 tablespoon of vinegar to recipe.
The crust will be flakier.

Add a little vinegar when boiling eggs. If there are cracks in the
egg, it will prevent the whites from leaking out.

Add a teaspoon of vinegar when poaching eggs to prevent separation.

When canning or preserving foods, wipe the jars with vinegar. That
will prevent the buildup of mold producing bacteria.

To improve the taste of fish when cooking, rinse in a solution of
vinegar and water. Much of the fishy taste and odor will be removed.

A spoon full of vinegar added to the water when cooking cauliflower
will make it whiter, and when cooking green vegetables, it will make
them greener.

Adding a tablespoon of vinegar to gelatin will make it firmer.

Add a 1/8 to ¼ cup of cider vinegar when soaking beans to remove the
gas from the beans.

Cabbage odor can be removed when cooking cabbage by adding some
vinegar to the water.

To prevent mold from the end of an uncooked ham, just rub some
vinegar on it.

To make a real fluffy meringue, add one teaspoon of vinegar to 3 egg
whites.

Adding vinegar to the water when boiling a ham will remove the salty
taste and improve the flavor.

New Englanders put vinegar on their French fries. It is also used
that way in the UK.

In health related issues, vinegar has many applications. Some such
uses are.

For skin burns apply ice-cold vinegar immediately. Use cold
compresses by soaking a cloth in vinegar. Using these compresses 3
or 4 times daily. Doing this can prevent blisters from forming.

Add 1/2 cup of vinegar to water in a plastic pan. Use to soak your
feet to soften calluses. Makes trimming toenails and cuticles much
easier.

Add 2 cups of cider vinegar to a hot tub. Makes an excellent soak
for muscle soreness. This reduces the soreness by adding potassium
to the muscles.

One of the best uses is making solution of half vinegar and half
water, this basically is a solution that could be bought
commercially, and was called "Burrow's Solution". It is an excellent
solution to reduce the swelling and inflammation of a sprained
ankle, by applying a cold compress. Use it also for any other injury
that causes pain, swelling, and inflammation.

The versatility of vinegar makes it practically mandatory that all
households have a bottle of white, and a bottle of apple cider
vinegar in the pantry. And you needn't worry about it becoming
outdated or spoiling. It doesn't spoil and can be kept
indefinitely.

Regards,

QLP




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think I was extreme. I think I was simply asking a question
and giving my thoughts. I don't know all the rules about the way
Nova Roma is maintained, so I came here to ask it. If you never ask,
then you'll never know.

Feel free to kick me out if I overstepped or didn't ask properly.

Ryan

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Flavia Scholastica <fororom@l...>
wrote:

> Salvete, quirites, socii, peregrinique omnes, praesertim "D."
>
> > How do I just stop being a citizen and get out? I'm not paying
> > $13.00
> > to be a citizen of this group. I joined to be among people who

could

> > help me learn a little more Latin than I do now. Any help is
> > appreciated.
>
> I have answered this person privately as this message was

duplicated and

> its twin intercepted before filling up the members' mailboxes. The

tax is

> voluntary, and Latin is best learned at the Academia and in the

Sodalitas

> Latinitatis, in case anyone else is interested.
>
> There are procedures for resigning citizenship, but such

extremities

> seem unnecesarry in this case.
> >
> > D
> >
> >
> Vale, et valete,
>
> Flavia Tullia Scholastica

A. Apollonius Ryano omnibusque sal.

> I don't think I was extreme. I think I was simply
> asking a question
> and giving my thoughts. I don't know all the rules
> about the way
> Nova Roma is maintained, so I came here to ask it.
> If you never ask,
> then you'll never know.

Quite right. I think Scholastica just meant that
there's no need to go as far as resigning your
citizenship, since you can remain a citizen without
paying anything. But it was perfectly correct of you
to ask, and I hope you've got the answer you wanted.
If not, keep asking!



___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

Flavia Tullia Scholastica Dardanio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque omnibus
S.P.D.

> I don't think I was extreme.

No, but abandoning citizenship because one doesn't want to pay a minimal
tax is rather extreme. The truth of the matter is that most NR citizens are
capite censi, that is, non taxpayers. They can't be magistrates,
magistrates' assistants, or sacerdotes, flamines, pontifices, etc., and
their vote is severely diluted by being in a century of some 1000 people
instead of one with 8 or fewer people, but that's their choice. (for the
uninitiated, I shall point out that centuries and tribes, not individuals,
are the voting units in Nova Roma. One votes in a century and a tribe; if
one is fortunate enough to be in the majority within those units, one's
choice is ratified, if not, well, too bad).

> I think I was simply asking a question
> and giving my thoughts. I don't know all the rules about the way
> Nova Roma is maintained, so I came here to ask it.

A good deal of this information is on the website, which one is supposed
to read before becoming a citizen. However, many noncitizens are on the ML;
it isn't necessary to be a citizen in order to participate in this forum.

> If you never ask,
> then you'll never know.

Very true. This is why we are here--to help.

>
> Feel free to kick me out if I overstepped or didn't ask properly.

Politeness and graciousness are appreciated, but it takes more than the
absence thereof--or asking questions, even on hot topics--to get 'kicked
out.'

>
> Ryan

Flavia Tullia Scholastica

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Flavia Scholastica <fororom@l...>
> wrote:
>> Salvete, quirites, socii, peregrinique omnes, praesertim "D."
>>
>>> How do I just stop being a citizen and get out? I'm not paying
>>> $13.00
>>> to be a citizen of this group. I joined to be among people who
> could
>>> help me learn a little more Latin than I do now. Any help is
>>> appreciated.
>>
>> I have answered this person privately as this message was
> duplicated and
>> its twin intercepted before filling up the members' mailboxes. The
> tax is
>> voluntary, and Latin is best learned at the Academia and in the
> Sodalitas
>> Latinitatis, in case anyone else is interested.
>>
>> There are procedures for resigning citizenship, but such
> extremities
>> seem unnecesarry in this case.
>>>
>>> D
>>>
>>>
>> Vale, et valete,
>>
>> Flavia Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salvete,

Parents of Nova Romans who are under the age of 18 are requested to
contact the Censors in order to ensure that your minor children are
counted during the ongoing Census.

Propraetors/Proconsuls are strongly encouraged to repost this message
to their respective provincial mailing lists and translate as needed.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Magister Aranearius

P. Memmius Albucius omnibus s.d.


You will find below my edict which receives the "appeal for
provocatio" presented last month by Hon. Quaestor Paulinus to our
Tribunate.

Even if, on the matter itself (the case of the resignation of Hon.
Saturninus), I have clearly endorsed at this moment the collective
position of the tribunate, it appears to me that nothing may
authorize me to refuse to Hon. Galerius the application of this
constitutional right, as it is currently provided by our laws.

If this edict is not vetoed, I would publish a second edict calling
for order the CT Populi in August with, in its agenda, 2 points : 1/
Examination of the appeal 2/ vote on a lex de provocatione. The
intent of this law would be to precise the scope of the "appeal for
provocatio".

Valete omnes,

Tribunus Albucius



TRIBUNE P.MEMMIUS ALBUCIUS EDICT (n° 58-14)
ON A APPEAL FOR PROVOCATIO AND ON THE CONVENING OF THE COMITIA
TRIBUTA POPULI


I, Publius Minius Albucius, Tribunes of the Plebs, by the authority
vested in us by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma,

In view of the Constitution of Nova Roma, specially its articles II.
B. 5 and IV.A.7.d, specially d2 and d3 on one hand, III.C and IV.A.5
on another ;

In view of Lex Didia Gemina de potestate tribuniciana issued on 15th
November 2756 a.u.c., specially its article III ;

In view of the message 32322 issued in Nova Roma main list on Jan.
12 th, 2758 a.u.c. 10:57 p.m. by Tribune Domitius Constantinus
Fuscus on « Saturninus' resignation withdrawal and his position in
the Tribunate » ;


Considering the « appeal to the tribunes to call the Comitia Populi
Tributa » made by Tiberius Galerius Paulinus on June 16th 2758
a.u.c. (joined below) ;

Considering the reminder sent by Hon. Galerius to the Tribunes of
the Plebs on July 13th ;

Considering the absence of answer, collective or individual, made on
July 20th by the Tribunes ;

Considering that Hon. Galerius, like every citizen has the right to
obtain an answer, whatever it is, to his request, specially to a
demand founded on the application of a constitutional right ;


Considering that Galerius's appeal thus refers to the « right of
provocatio i.e. the right to appeal a decision of a magistrate that
has a direct negative impact upon that citizen » ;

Considering that Hon. Galerius « believe(s) that (his) right to
stand as a candidate for office was denied (him) and other
plebeians when (the Tribunes) declared that there was not a vacancy
in the Tribuneship » and that he thus « (..) ask that you, the
Tribunes, convene the Comitia Populi Tributa so it can hear my
appeal of your decision » ;

Considering that, even if Hon. Galerius does not explicitly mention
the message 32322 issued in Nova Roma main list on Jan. 12 th, 2758
a.u.c., the contested tribunician act is necessarily this one, no
other official message having been issued on the subject by the
Tribunate ;


Considering that the Constitution of Nova Roma guarantees, in its
article II. B. 5, « the right of provocatio ; to appeal a decision
of a magistrate that has a direct negative impact upon that citizen
to the comitia populi tributa » ;

Considering that this article is reinforced by the article III of
Lex Didia Gemina de potestate tribuniciana, which stated that in
spite of the affirmation of the tribunician « summa coercendi
potestas (..), the right of provocatio will be respected as Article
II.B.5 of the constitution states. »

Considering that, contrary to the laws or practices of ancient Rome,
neither the Constitution nor the laws of Nova Roma define precisely
the contents of this right and how it may be exercised ;

Considering that the article II. B. 5 of the Constitution of Nova
Roma and the article III of Lex Didia Gemina de potestate
tribuniciana are the sole legal norm that must be taken into account
to ground a decision on the application of the right of provocatio
(jus provocationis) ;

Considering that this article II. B. 5 does not limit, as the
ancient practice did, the jus provocationis to criminal affairs, or
to acts taken by consuls using their imperium ;

Considering that this article II. B. 5 does not prevent a
tribunician act, as the ancient practice did, to be contested by jus
provocationis ; that, furthermore, the article III of Lex Didia
Gemina, specially its paragraph B on sacrosanctity power (potestas
sacrosancta) does not prevent the application of the right of
provocatio ;

Considering that the sole magistrates who may, according the
Constitution of Nova Roma, convene the comitia populi tributa, are
the consuls, the praetors and the tribunes of the plebs ;

Considering that the fact that the magisterial decision contested by
Hon. Galerius is a tribunician act does not prevent him using his
right of provocatio either through the consuls, or the praetors or
the tribunes ;

Considering that the fact that the decision contested had been taken
by a majority of the tribunate is here irrelevant ;

Considering that Hon. Galerius was the sole citizen of Nova Roma to
express his will, on Jan. 12th, 2758 auc, 4 :29 am, to be candidate
to the office that he believed at this time as vacant ; that this
will has also been expressed before the tribunician statement on the
same day, at 10:57 p.m. ; that, thus, Hon. Galerius is the sole
citizen concerned by this tribunician statement ;

Considering that the fact of knowing whether the tribunician
decision reported by the message ML 32322 has had a « direct
negative impact » is outside the field of competencies of the
tribunes, as
it would be for any magistrate asked for the application of jus
provocationis ; that such magistrate has thus a bound competency,
and is not allowed to make such an examination ;

Considering thus that the comitia populi tributa are the sole
constitutional power authorized to state on an provocatio ; that
this is the only interpretation which guarantees to every citizen of
Nova Roma the respect of his rights granted by the Constitution of
Nova Roma and gives to this text its full effect ;

Considering that the fact that the current Salicia and Fabia laws do
not organise precisely the examination of a provocatio may not
obstruct the full application of a constitutional right ;

Edicts :


Article 1

The « appeal to the tribunes to call the Comitia Populi Tributa »
made by Tiberius Galerius Paulinus on June 16th 2758 a.u.c. and
contesting the tribunician decision that « declared that there was
not a vacancy in the Tribuneship » is received ;

Article 2

The comitia tributa populi are convened in August 2005 (Sextilis
2758 a.u.c.), on a schedule that a next edict will determine.

Article 3

The appropriate magistrates of Nova Roma and their offices are
responsible, as far as each one is concerned by the present edict,
and in due consideration of the constitution, for executing it. This
edict will be published in the Tabularium of Nova Roma.


Issued in Cadomago, Gallia, this twenty first day (21st) of July,
2005 C.E. (a.d. XII Kal. Sextiles 2758 a.u.c.), during the consulate
of Fr. Apulus Caesar and Ga. Popillius Laenas


attached below-------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
Text of the appeal by Ti. Galerius Paulinus June 16th 2758 a.u.c. :

Salve Tribunes

According to the Constitution of Nova Roma a citizen has a right of
provocatio ie the right to appeal a decision of a magistrate that
has a direct negative impact upon that citizen. As I stated earlier
this year I believe that my right to stand as a candidate for office
was denied me ( and other plebeians ) when you declared that there
was not a vacancy in the Tribuneship.

I respectfully disagreed with you then and still do.

Now that some time has passed and the immediate passions have cooled
I respectful ask that you, the Tribunes, convene the Comitia Populi
Tributa so it can hear my appeal of your decision.

If you are disinclined to grant my request I would very much like
you to tell me how a citizen of Nova Roma can exercise their
constitutional right of provocatio if the magistrates charged with
conniving the Comitia Populi Tributa refuse to do so?
As a courtesy I have CC this to Caius Curius Saturninus as well.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


Text of the reminder by Ti. Galerius Paulinus July 13th 2758
a.u.c. :

From: Timothy P. Gallagher
To: Domitius Constantinus Fuscus ; Maior ; Publius Minius Albucius ;
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Cc: Caius Curius Saturninus
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 4:36 PM

Salve Tribunes on June 16 I sent the following e-mail.

Can you please tell be the status of my request ?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen

---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

A. Apollonius P. Memmio tribuno plebis omnibusque sal.

I've read your edictum with great care, but I'm still
slightly unclear on one point: what exactly are going
to be asked to vote on?





___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

G. Equitius Cato quaestore Ti. Galerio Paulino quaestore P. Memmio
Albucio tribunus plebis quiritibusque salutem plurimam dicit.

Salvete omnes.

Quaestor Galerius Paulinus, I hereby offer you my services as
advocatus in this matter if you so desire. I do so because I too
expressed my deepest conviction that the decision made by the tribunes
was unConstitutional and that, in fact, according to the laws and
Constitution of the Republic, a vacancy did (and does) exist in the
tribunate.

As a Patrician, I have no vested personal interest in the tribunate,
and as an elected magistrate of the res publica I have a fundamental
interest in the accurate interpretation and application of our laws
and Constitution.

I ask the tribunes to uphold the calling of the Comitia Populi Tributa
to answer the question of whether or not they feel the tribunes'
decision to close the tribunate by re-admitting C. Curius Saturninus
was correct.

Valete,

Gaius Equitius Cato
Quaestor
Legate for Nova Eboracum

Marca Hortensia A. Apollinio spd;
yes, I'm wondering the same. I returned Friday and I've just posted
in the tribunes that I'm writing to Tiberius Paulinus to see if he
wishes to still go forward in this matter, for all we know it may be
dropped.
I hope we may all calm down and take a few moments to reflect on the
legal issues (if any) that are involved.
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP



- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius P. Memmio tribuno plebis omnibusque sal.
>
> I've read your edictum with great care, but I'm still
> slightly unclear on one point: what exactly are going
> to be asked to vote on?
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with

voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Flavia Tullia Scholastica Quinto Lanio Paulino Iulio Sabino quiritibus,
sociis, peregrinisque omnibus S.P.D.

> SALVE QUINTE LANI !
>
> Checked. It works.
> The Latin course will start in September. They have to sign up for it at the
> Academia Thules website.

Actually, the Wheelock Latin course will start in September (second
Monday, if the Academia agrees), but the Assimil course will start in
October, probably mid-October. These are two different methods of
introductory Latin studies aimed at different prospective students.

>
> OPTIME VALE,
> IVL SABINVS

Valete,

Flavia

>
>
> "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I just wanted to remind some citizens in our province about the Latin
> course coming up. I cannot open the Thules Academy site on the NR main
> webpage. Would someone check that out when you have a chance please?
>
> Regards,
>
> QLP
>
>
>
>
>
> "Every individual is the arhitect of his own fortune" - Appius Claudius
>
>

In a message dated 7/11/2005 9:29:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lucius_vitellius_triarius@... writes:
Remember the Prime Directive of Star Fleet Command on Star Trek...

don't get involved in the inner political fights and civil wars of
other civilizations...or something like that.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/21/2005 4:23:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:
Quaestor Galerius Paulinus, I hereby offer you my services as
Advocates in this matter if you so desire. I do so because I too
expressed my deepest conviction that the decision made by the tribunes
was unconstitutional and that, in fact, according to the laws and
Constitution of the Republic, a vacancy did (and does) exist in the
Tribunate.
This was never resolved to any of our liking. I believe that Gallerias was
denied his rights as guaranteed by the constitution of Nova Roma, and the fact
that he was prevented from standing for a vacant office was crime against Nova
Roma. I am available as an witness.

Q. Fabius Maximus
Proconsul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gaius Equitius Cato

I humbly except your gracious offer to act as advocatus in the matter that I hope will soon be before the Comitia Populi Tributa.
I also wish to thank our most noble Tribune Publius Minius Albucius for acting on my request and I also ask the remaining Tribunes to uphold the calling of the Comitia Populi Tributa and allow me, as it were "my day in court" ( Court of public opinion).


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiusequitiuscato<mailto:mlcinnyc@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Appeal for provocatio from Hon. Ti. Galerius Paulinus (received)


G. Equitius Cato quaestore Ti. Galerio Paulino quaestore P. Memmio
Albucio tribunus plebis quiritibusque salutem plurimam dicit.

Salvete omnes.

Quaestor Galerius Paulinus, I hereby offer you my services as
advocatus in this matter if you so desire. I do so because I too
expressed my deepest conviction that the decision made by the tribunes
was unConstitutional and that, in fact, according to the laws and
Constitution of the Republic, a vacancy did (and does) exist in the
tribunate.

As a Patrician, I have no vested personal interest in the tribunate,
and as an elected magistrate of the res publica I have a fundamental
interest in the accurate interpretation and application of our laws
and Constitution.

I ask the tribunes to uphold the calling of the Comitia Populi Tributa
to answer the question of whether or not they feel the tribunes'
decision to close the tribunate by re-admitting C. Curius Saturninus
was correct.

Valete,

Gaius Equitius Cato
Quaestor
Legate for Nova Eboracum






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M.Hortensia Maior Quiritibus spd;
Salvete;
Plebians and Patricians I wish to discuss this issue of Provocatio
in a clear and non-emotional way so that we may properly analyze
this subject. Since I am your representitive, I will present my
thinking on this subject and we may discuss it publically and fully.

1. Historical use of Provocatio: the Lex Valeria de Provocatione
gave Roman citizens a right of appeal against capital punishment
imposed by magistrates.

Since Tiberius Paulinus is not suffering criminal punishment, the
historical Roman provocatio does not apply in this case.

Now let us examine the Nova Roman Constitution:
B.
5. "The right to provocatio; to appeal a decision of a
magistrate that has a a direct negative impact upon the citizen to
the Comitia Populi Tributa"

Now this is a very broad use of provocatio, as my friend Cordus
rightly pointed out, anyone who loses in a Nova Roman election is
negatively affected and may use provocatio.

So if we permit Paulinus's provocatio we make a precedent that has
huge consequences for Nova Roma, opening the gates to appeal
anything.

Now, has Tiberius Paulinus suffered a negative impact? Well we might
answer 'yes, he was denied running in the election for tribune of
the plebs'

But is this so? We had an election in November for Tribunes Plebis
and every single citizen in Nova Roma had an opportunity; no one was
denied.

But you may reply, 'this has to do with Saturninus's resignation.'

Now there are two point of view. My fellow tribunes say Saturninus
did not officially resign. If this is true then Paulinus suffered no
wrong! Provocatio is not called for.

Now I posited that Saturninus did resign. But does this mean
Paulinus suffered a negative effect?

Paulinus had no idea Saturninus would resign, the election for the
tribunes of the plebs was held in November, and then it was
finished. So how can Paulinus complain that he was wronged when it
was never forseeable that such an event - Saturninus would occur?

So I do not see that Paulinus has been negatively affected and
provocatio does not apply.


Cives, this is some of my analysis of this subject. Let all of us
discuss this complex manner in a calm, clear and passionless way.

So far, I would deny Tiberius Paulinus provcatio for the above
stated reasons.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
Caput Officina Censoris
Iuriis CFB












In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@y...> wrote:

> A. Apollonius P. Memmio tribuno plebis omnibusque sal.
>
> I've read your edictum with great care, but I'm still
> slightly unclear on one point: what exactly are going
> to be asked to vote on?
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide

with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Salve;

Does this mean you are issuing an intercession again your colleagues
decision?

Vale;

C. Fabius Buteo Modianus

In a message dated 7/22/2005 7:11:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rory12001@... writes:

So far, I would deny Tiberius Paulinus provcatio for the above
stated reasons.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
Caput Officina Censoris
Iuriis CFB





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marca Hortensia G. Buteo spd;
Salve;
no, it means just what I said; these are my present thoughts on
the matter, but as always I may be wrong! So I wish to have an
intelligent thoughtful discussion of the matter. I represent the
quirites not myself.
di deasque te ament
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP


- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:

>
> Salve;
>
> Does this mean you are issuing an intercession again your

colleagues

> decision?
>
> Vale;
>
> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> In a message dated 7/22/2005 7:11:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> rory12001@y... writes:
>
> So far, I would deny Tiberius Paulinus provcatio for the above
> stated reasons.
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
> Caput Officina Censoris
> Iuriis CFB
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maori quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve Marca Hortensia et salvete omnes.

First, thank you for presenting your considerations of this question
so precisely and logically. You do your namesake proud :-)

I'd like to engage your comments with some views of my own:


B.5. "The right to provocatio; to appeal a decision of a

> magistrate that has a a direct negative impact upon the citizen to
> the Comitia Populi Tributa"
>
> Now this is a very broad use of provocatio, as my friend Cordus
> rightly pointed out, anyone who loses in a Nova Roman election is
> negatively affected and may use provocatio.
>
> So if we permit Paulinus's provocatio we make a precedent that has
> huge consequences for Nova Roma, opening the gates to appeal
> anything.

CATO: Not necessarily. Galerius Paulinus is arguing that a specific
act, or decision, (the re-admission of C. Curius Saturninus to the
tribunate) by a specific magistrate (D. Constantinus Fuscus, "on
behalf of the tribunes") has had a direct negative impact upon him. A
citizen who loses in a general election has not been the subject of a
specific act by a specific magistrate; he has been subject to a
general act by the People of the Republic. The two are very
different.

> Now, has Tiberius Paulinus suffered a negative impact? Well we

might

> answer 'yes, he was denied running in the election for tribune of
> the plebs' But is this so? We had an election in November for
>Tribunes Plebis and every single citizen in Nova Roma had an
>opportunity; no one was denied.

CATO: And Galerius Paulinus chose not to run at that time, as did
dozens, if not hundreds, of other Plebeians. This has nothing to do
with Galerius Paulinus' provocatio.

Now, the rest of your discussion focusses on the issue of Curius
Saturninus' resignation, and its impact. That is precisely the issue
that the provocatio is being issued to resolve: did or did not Curius
Saturninus resign his office, leaving it vacant? If so, did the
tribunes act Constitutionally in simply re-admitting him to the
tribunate?

Whether or not anyone knew that Curius Saturninus was going to resign
is of no consequence whatsoever; what is important, and central to
Galerius Paulinus' provocatio, is that once Curius Saturninus had
published that explicit resignation of his office, Galerius Paulinus
saw a vacancy in the tribunate and decided that he did indeed want to
run. According to the simplest exegesis of our Constitution, the
office was vacant; any Plebeian had the right to run for it.

That the tribunes in question should simply announce that they had
simply decided that Curius Saturninus had not resigned, contrary to
his own words, denied Galerius Paulinus the right guaranteed by the
Constitution to run for a vacant office for which he was qualified.
This is a specific act which created a direct negative impact on
Galerius Paulinus. Therefore, I argue that the right of provocatio
given to the citizens of the Republic by our Constitution is indeed
supported.

> So far, I would deny Tiberius Paulinus provcatio for the above
> stated reasons.

CATO: Are you invoking your intercessio? I only ask because you
signed off as "TRP", signifying that you are speaking as a tribunus
plebis.

Vale et valete bene,

G. Equitius Cato
Advocatus in re provocatio Ti. Galerium Paulinum

T. Galerius Paulinus was NOT able to run for Tribune in November because he
was already a currently serving Tribune at that time.

_http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-11-24-i.html_
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-11-24-i.html)

Valete;

C. Fabius Buteo Modianus

In a message dated 7/22/2005 8:04:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

> Now, has Tiberius Paulinus suffered a negative impact? Well we

might

> answer 'yes, he was denied running in the election for tribune of
> the plebs' But is this so? We had an election in November for
>Tribunes Plebis and every single citizen in Nova Roma had an
>opportunity; no one was denied.

CATO: And Galerius Paulinus chose not to run at that time, as did
dozens, if not hundreds, of other Plebeians. This has nothing to do
with Galerius Paulinus' provocatio.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M.Hortensia Gaio Equitio spd.

>
> Salve Gai Equiti;
>
> Many thanks for the kind words and let us continue this

fascinating and amicable discussion:n:

>
>
> B> CATO: Not necessarily. Galerius Paulinus is arguing that a

specific

> act, or decision, (the re-admission of C. Curius Saturninus to the
> tribunate) by a specific magistrate (D. Constantinus Fuscus, "on
> behalf of the tribunes") has had a direct negative impact upon

him. A

> citizen who loses in a general election has not been the subject

of a

> specific act by a specific magistrate; he has been subject to a
> general act by the People of the Republic. The two are very
> different.

M>HORTENSIA: I would say that the loser in the general election
could very well challenge the rogators under this rule with no
problem whatsoever. On Paulinus's damage I will discuss this below

>
>
>>
> CATO: And Galerius Paulinus chose not to run at that time, as did
> dozens, if not hundreds, of other Plebeians. This has nothing to

do

> with Galerius Paulinus' provocatio.
>

M.HORTENSIA: I would disagree, Paulinus argues he was denied an
opportunity. Which opportunity? To become Tribune, he actually had
this opportunity in November. He has not been denied 'an'
opportunity to become tribune, rather it is the opportunity anent
Saturninus's supposed vacancy. I say 'supposed' as my fellow
tribunes all agree that there was NO vacancy.

> the provocatio is being issued to resolve: did or did not Curius
> Saturninus resign his office, leaving it vacant?

M.HORTENSIA: again dear Cato I disagree, my fellow tribunes have
spoken to a man on this issue. There is no issue they accept that
Saturninus never resigned.

If so, did the

> tribunes act Constitutionally in simply re-admitting him to the
> tribunate?
>

M.HORTENSIA: you are enlarging the issue. Provocatio consists solely
of "Did Paulinus suffer a negative impact from a decision by a
magistrate" This is the circumscribed issue. How can Paulinus
suffer if Saturninus is still tribune just as he was in the November
election. A logical impossibility.

> Whether or not anyone knew that Curius Saturninus was going to

resign

> is of no consequence whatsoever;

M.HORTENSIA: this goes directly to the harm. How can Paulinus
suffer if there was no forseeable harm? The harm you wish to discuss
does not exist according to the other tribunes. Saturninus is
tribune. Paulinus has neither lost nor gained anything.

what is important, and central to

> Galerius Paulinus' provocatio, is that once Curius Saturninus had
> published that explicit resignation of his office

M.HORTENSIA: again you say 'explicit' but my fellow tribunes say
otherwise and they are in the majority. There was no resignation.



, >

> That the tribunes in question should simply announce that they had
> simply decided that Curius Saturninus had not resigned, contrary to
> his own words, denied Galerius Paulinus the right guaranteed by the
> Constitution to run for a vacant office for which he was

qualified.

M.HORTENSIA: the tribunes did not simply announce, they discussed
the laws that applied and the precedents in Nova Roma in detail.
Also both Scaurus and Consul Laenas have resigned 'in their own
words' and NR law said they had not resigned.

If Saturninus has not resigned how can Paulinus be wronged?

.

>
> CATO: Are you invoking your intercessio? I only ask because you
> signed off as "TRP", signifying that you are speaking as a tribunus
> plebis.
>

M.HORTENSIA: I am thinking about this, yes, as I have indicated for
the stated reasons, which is why I signed in my capacity. But my
mind is open to the best legal arguments in this matter. As I said I
represent the Quriites which is why I have placed my current
analysis on the ML.
always a pleasure to discuss these issues in
such a civilized and thoughtful way, dear Cato
optime vale
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP

> Vale et valete bene,
>
> G. Equitius Cato
> Advocatus in re provocatio Ti. Galerium Paulinum

M.Hortensia G.Buteo optimo suo spd;
excellent! this is the historical issue of continuatio. It
was against Republican usage to have a tribune follow one term with
another.

For Paulinus to present himself as a candidate for tribune without a
year lapse is also against tradition and a way around the sound rule
of no prorogation.
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP

PS. Buteo Minor as a courtesy and an example of good style please
address all letters with G. Buteo M. Hortensiae spd. or
alternatively Gaius Buteo to Marca Hortensia.



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:

>
> T. Galerius Paulinus was NOT able to run for Tribune in November

because he

> was already a currently serving Tribune at that time.
>
> _http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-11-24-i.html_
> (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-11-24-i.html)
>
> Valete;
>
> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> In a message dated 7/22/2005 8:04:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mlcinnyc@y... writes:
>
> > Now, has Tiberius Paulinus suffered a negative impact? Well we
> might
> > answer 'yes, he was denied running in the election for tribune

of

> > the plebs' But is this so? We had an election in November for
> >Tribunes Plebis and every single citizen in Nova Roma had an
> >opportunity; no one was denied.
>
> CATO: And Galerius Paulinus chose not to run at that time, as did
> dozens, if not hundreds, of other Plebeians. This has nothing to

do

> with Galerius Paulinus' provocatio.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maori quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve et salvete.

Marca Hortensia, you wrote:

"M.HORTENSIA: I would disagree, Paulinus argues he was denied an
opportunity. Which opportunity? To become Tribune, he actually had
this opportunity in November."

CATO: As C. Modius Buteo has pointed out, the Lex Salicia de
prorogatione et cumulatione says:

"III. In this first round of candidacy presentation, no current holder
of a magistracy shall present his or her candidacy for that very same
position (prorogatio). No individual shall present his or her
candidacy to more than one magistracy (cumulatio)."

So apparently Galerius Paulinus could not have run for the tribunate
at that time. So it is a moot question.


You wrote:

"M.HORTENSIA: I would disagree, Paulinus argues he was denied an
opportunity. Which opportunity? To become Tribune, he actually had
this opportunity in November. He has not been denied 'an'
opportunity to become tribune, rather it is the opportunity anent
Saturninus's supposed vacancy. I say 'supposed' as my fellow
tribunes all agree that there was NO vacancy...again dear Cato I
disagree, my fellow tribunes have spoken to a man on this issue. There
is no issue they accept that Saturninus never resigned."

CATO: Once again, that is precisely the issue about which the
provocatio is being called: there are many citizens who believe that
the tribunes neither have the right nor the authority to simply
declare something which is contrary to what the Constitution says.
Even tribunician authority is subject to the authority of the
Constitution. The provocatio is being called so that the citizens of
the Republic can decide for themselves, rather than the tribunes. The
very essence of republican government is the authority of the will of
the People; this authority was abrogated by the tribunes' declaration.
And, unless I am mistaken, the tribunes did not speak unanimously
--- you disagreed with them :-)


you wrote:

"M.HORTENSIA: Provocatio consists solely of 'Did Paulinus suffer a
negative impact from a decision by a magistrate'. This is the
circumscribed issue. How can Paulinus suffer if Saturninus is still
tribune just as he was in the November election. A logical
impossibility...this goes directly to the harm. How can Paulinus
suffer if there was no forseeable harm? The harm you wish to discuss
does not exist according to the other tribunes. Saturninus is tribune.
Paulinus has neither lost nor gained anything...again you say
'explicit' but my fellow tribunes say otherwise and they are in the
majority. There was no resignation....He has not been denied 'an'
opportunity to become tribune, rather it is the opportunity anent
Saturninus's supposed vacancy. I say 'supposed' as my fellow
tribunes all agree that there was NO vacancy."


CATO: You are correct, the issue is whether or not Galerius Paulinus
was directly and negatively impacted by the tribunes' decision. But
unfortunately for all of us, the two issues are almost inextricably
bound together: Saturninus did, in fact, resign. He posted his
resignation. It can be produced as evidence. To pretend that he did
not is denial of fact. It does not matter if every single person on
earth decided that the laws of gravity no longer applied; they do and
no amount of pretending can make it otherwise. To use the argument
that because all the tribunes decided something then it is correct is
an egregious fallacy: the argumentum ad populum, where a proposition
is held to be true because it is widely held to be true or is held to
be true by some sector of the population --- in this particular case
the tribunes.


you wrote:

"M.HORTENSIA: the tribunes did not simply announce, they discussed
the laws that applied and the precedents in Nova Roma in detail.
Also both Scaurus and Consul Laenas have resigned 'in their own
words' and NR law said they had not resigned."

CATO: As you know, the circumstances under which Gaius Scaurus and
Popillius Laenas resigned were different: they occurred before Section
3 of the Lex Maria et Cornelia was annulled. Even then, Nova Roman
law did not say they had not resigned; they were allowed to regain
their offices simply because no-one at the time objected. This is
another logical fallacy: that of the "complex question", where two
otherwise unrelated points are conjoined and treated as a single
proposition. The reader is expected to accept or reject both together,
when in reality one is acceptable while the other is not. A complex
question is an illegitimate use of the "and" operator. You are saying
that Gaius Scaurus and Popillius Laenas resigned AND Saturninus
resigned, but since the first two were allowed to resume their
offices, we must allow Curius Saturninus to do so as well.

Yet another logical fallacy plays here: that of the false analogy,
where in an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be
similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must
have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are
different in a way which affects whether they both have property P.
Gaius Scaurus and Popillius Laenas resigned BEFORE Section 3 of the
lex Maria et Cornelia was annulled, and Curius Saturninus resigned
AFTER it was annulled. It cannot apply equally.

Now, we have two choices using your description: either Curius
Saturninus DID resign, and should be allowed to resume his offices
JUST AS Gaius Scaurus and Popillius Laenas were, OR Curius Saturninus
did NOT resign, and therefore the precedence of Gaius Scaurus and
Popillius Laenas no longer applies. It is a logical impossibility to
try to apply both. Yet he did resign, so the second choice is not
applicable, and the circumstances surrounding the first two
resignations and Curius Saturninus' are not equal, so the first cannot
apply either.

The tribunes may have indeed discussed the issue, in private, but I
believe that it is of such great import that the People, from whom the
government receives its authority, should have a voice in this
decision. Not one tribune presented a contrary argument based on Nova
Roman law or our Constitution which satisfactorily explained how they
could have reached that decision.

By failing to do so, they disregarded the right of Galerius Paulinus
to run for an office for which he was qualified --- and had a direct,
negative impact upon him. Allow him his day in the Comitia. Allow
the People to speak. It is their government. Vox populi vox dei.

Vale et valete,

G. Equitius Cato
Advocatus in re provocatio Ti. Galerium Paulinum

G. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maori quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve et salvete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> M.Hortensia G.Buteo optimo suo spd;
> excellent! this is the historical issue of continuatio. It
> was against Republican usage to have a tribune follow one term with
> another.
>
> For Paulinus to present himself as a candidate for tribune without a
> year lapse is also against tradition and a way around the sound rule
> of no prorogation.
> bene vale
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
>
> PS. Buteo Minor as a courtesy and an example of good style please
> address all letters with G. Buteo M. Hortensiae spd. or
> alternatively Gaius Buteo to Marca Hortensia.


CATO: Remember, the law of ancient Rome is only considered if and
when our own, Nova Roman law does not speak. The lex Salicia de
prorgatione et cumulatione also says:

"IV. If, after the kalendas of December, a certain magistracy has a
number of legal candidates that is lower than the number of offices to
be filled, the period of presentation of candidacies shall be extended
by an additional nundina for that magistracy only. During this
extended period, the provisions indicated in paragraph III of this lex
shall be considered temporarily withdrawn for candidacies to that
magistracy."

So, with a vacant tribuneship in January, Galerius Paulinus had the
right to run...

Vale et valete,

Cato

C. Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

I would be interested in hearing the voice of the senate on this matter vs.
the voice of the people. The people are not always informed to make a
decision, and the threat of being in a "tyranny of the majority" is always there.
However, the senate is better prepared to debate the issue and make a
decision.

This, of course, is my opinion.

Valete;

C. Fabius Buteo Modianus

In a message dated 7/22/2005 10:22:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mlcinnyc@... writes:

By failing to do so, they disregarded the right of Galerius Paulinus
to run for an office for which he was qualified --- and had a direct,
negative impact upon him. Allow him his day in the Comitia. Allow
the People to speak. It is their government. Vox populi vox dei.

Vale et valete,

G. Equitius Cato
Advocatus in re provocatio Ti. Galerium Paulinum





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/22/2005 5:35:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rory12001@... writes:
M>HORTENSIA: I would say that the loser in the general election
could very well challenge the rogators under this rule with no
problem whatsoever. On Pauline's damage I will discuss this below

>

Salvete

Based on what, Tribune? Here we have a specific instance of citizen denied
of his rights,
and not by Fortune or by lot going against him. But a human agency.
Unless you believe human agencies are governed by lot or by Fortune :-).

Sinicus Drusus after he lost the election for Tribune, believed that the
voting was rigged, but except for a short speech to that effect, he never asked
for an investigation or demanded his
protection as a Nova Roman citizen. He eventually admitted that he did not
run a good campaign. So Fortuna denied him. You cannot appeal that.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]