A. Apollonius Q. Svetonio omnibusque sal.

Salve Pauline, and congrats on your new name.

I know I'm coming late to this party, but there are
still a couple of things worth saying.

> 1) If say citizen Gaius Smithsus Falco changes his
> name to Gaius
> Iulius or Octavius Falco, both Patrician families,
> does that
> automatically make him Patrician. I am not clear
> about changing social
> classes since one does not apply directly to the
> paterfamilias anymore.
> If Gaius Smithsus Falco is a tribune would changing
> his name to Iulius
> or another Patrician name force him to resign his
> term in office since
> Patrians cannot be tribunes?

T. Julius and Cn. Equitius have covered this, but it
may be useful to give some theoretical background.
Plebejan-ness and patrician-ness are properties not of
gentes but of domus. A domus (plural "domus", also
known as a "stirps", plural "stirpes") is a family of
people who share the same nomen *and* cognomen. So
although the Julii are a gens, the Julii Caesares are
a domus (or stirps).

All the domus which are currently patrician will
continue to be patrician, and cannot be deprived of
that status. The Julii Caesares are patricians, and
any new member of that domus from now on will be
patrician. But the Julii Severi are plebejans, and any
new member of that domus from now on will be a
plebejan. Also anyone who creates a new domus within
gens Julia, such as, say, the Julii Merulae, would be
creating a plebejan domus.

> 2) I see the name Tarquinia on the album gentium.
> Now since there are
> no citizens there to be offended at the moment, I
> wanted to point out
> that I read an article this morning that Romans from
> the Republic
> onward did not dare use that name because of the
> unpopularity of the
> Kings much like you never hear Judeo-Christians
> using the name Jezebel
> today and throughout history.

You're quite right. In fact one of the first things
the republic did after the overthrow of the kings, in
the very first year of its existence, was to ban the
entire gens Tarquinia from Rome forever. So whoever
let those guys in really made a bit of a mistake! :)





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A. Apollonius C. Equitio omnibusque sal.

> Corde, you wrote:
>
> "Then you tell us that this edictum cannot be
> applied retroactively.
> In other words, the penalty (removal of hat) cannot
> be imposed on
> someone whose prohibited act (wearing of hat) was
> performed before the
> edictum was published."
>
> This is exactly incorrect.

Optime! I wouldn't like to be inexactly incorrect. ;)

> ... The penalty is *not* the
> removal of the
> red hat, the penalty would be the punishment
> inflicted because they
> were wearing a red hat after the issuance of the
> edict banning the
> wearing of red hats. Removal of the hat is part and
> parcel with the
> forced observance of the edict. Of course it is
> ridiculous to imagine
> taking a hat off a hatless man as a penalty; it is
> not so ridiculous
> to imagine flogging a man who is discovered wearing
> the red hat after
> he wasn't supposed to.

Yes, I believe this is the point I made when I went on
to say that you had mistakenly identified the removal
of the hat as a penalty when in fact it's not. The
text you quote above was me doing my best to summarize
your chain of reasoning. The reason I believed that
you had interpreted the removal of the hat as a
penalty was because, in your example, you talked about
unconstitutional retroactivity, which as we know can
only apply to penalties, and yet the only thing you
mentioned which could have been seen as a penalty was
the removal of hats. I'm now getting the sense that
you had some other penalty in mind but you just didn't
mention it, which is where I got confused.

> Consider this: the censors issue an edict saying
> that any citizen
> found wearing a red hat will be flogged. Seven
> years ago, a group of
> citizens were granted the right to wear red hats by
> the same
> authority, the censors at the time. Do the censors
> today have the
> right to flog the citizens who were given the right
> to wear red hats,
> and thus violate the sanctioning of red hat wearing
> that their
> predecessors gave?

We must be a little more precise. Are these citizens
still wearing their red hats after the new edictum has
been issued, or have they now taken them off? In other
words, are the censores flogging them because they
*are* wearing red hats, or because they wore red hats
seven years ago when it was perfectly legal to do so?

(By the way, I'm going to change these censores into
consules, because actually the censores have no power
to flog anyone for any reason.)

If it's the former - if they are still wearing their
red hats even after the new edictum - then of course
the consules have the right to flog them (subject to
provocatio). But if they've taken their red hats off
nd have not worn them since the new edictum was
published, no, the consules do not have any right to
flog them.

> ... Whether you argue that the
> authority of a
> censorial edict springs from the document which
> creates all legal
> authority in the Republic (as I do) or from the
> power invested in the
> legal authority itself (as you do), the *effect* is
> the same: the
> red-hatted citizen is being punished for breaking a
> law passed by the
> exact same authority which allowed him to (in
> effect) break that law
> in the first place.

Yes. But this is also true even if there is *neither*
a lex *nor* an edictum. The important thing is the
penalty itself. Everything in your example would be
exactly the same if we simply removed the part where
the consules issue a new edictum.

> The problem with the "red hat" analogy is that it is
> easy to remove an
> article of clothing. What if it were a brand on the
> citizen's skin?

It really doesn't make much difference, but if you
want to use a different example then please do.

> There is a vast difference between a "statement of
> policy" and a law.

In general yes, but in this particular example no. If
you ever manage to persuade me that an edictum is
something more than a statement of policy, then my
answer to your example will remain exactly the same,
because whether an edictum is like a lex or like a
statement of policy makes no difference whatsoever to
your example.

> One has legally-binding repercussions, and the
> other does not. Let's
> say a censors decided to admit someone into a gens
> whose name had been
> chosen as unfit. If the edict is a merely statement
> of policy, then
> the censor is merely changing policy and can do so
> at will ---
> according to you, he can even do so for as long as
> he likes, then
> simply announce his new practice as new policy when
> and if he decides
> to do so. If the edict has the "binding" force of a
> legal instrument,
> then the censor has broken the law.

No, again you're getting confused. There is an
explicit statement in the lex constitutiva that an
edictum binds its issuer. This means that once a
magistrate has stated his policy by means of an
edictum, he cannot change that policy without stating,
by means of a new edictum, that he has changed it.
That doesn't stop an edictum being a statement of
policy. And whether an edictum is a statement of
policy or not has nothing whatsoever to do with
whether retroactive penalties are legal or illegal.
Retroactive penalties are illegal, full stop. The
nature of edicta has absolutely nothing to do with it.
What you're barking up is not even a tree, amice.



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A. Apollonius Sex. Pilato omnibusque sal.

One good way to go about it is to think about which
historical gentes you admire. There are plenty to go
round. And indeed you needn't even choose a historical
gens: you can make one up, as long as it conforms with
the necessary morphology. Equally you could consider
which modern gentes you like in Nova Roma. Or you
could say "hey, we don't choose our relatives", and
just pick one at random!

Feel free to e-mail me privately if you think I can help.



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Salve, Pilate Barbate!

It's manifest for you to choose the gens Pontia,
because "Pilatus" is its proper cognomen: and so you
will be very near your present name - as "Sextus
Pontius Pilatus Barbatus".

Just a suggestion...

Vale, Barbate Collega!
LENTVLVS

--- Peter Bird <p.bird@...> ha scritto:

> Salve, M Lucreti Agricola ...
>
> Many thanks for your helpful suggestions, which I
> will now pursue.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus
>
>

VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






___________________________________
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Salvete omnes,

Perhaps we are all wrong on how Imperial Rome fell. Over the last
few years there are numerous articles out there suggesting deadlier
mosquitoes were imported from Africa, brought into Rome by ship and
caravan bred with the Roman swamp mosquitoes creating a deadlier foe
and strain! LOL, ah, the multicultural weakening theory again!-:
Here is one of many articles out there that I picked since it is
more laconic for this list:

Skeleton Find Links Malaria to Fall of Rome
Rory Carroll
The Guardian
(February 21, 2001)


Analysis of the skeleton of a child buried on the eve of the fall of
the Roman Empire has revealed that the barbarians may have had a
secret ally: malaria.

British and American researchers say that DNA from the 1,500-
year-old bones, found in a cemetery north of Rome, yielded evidence
of an epidemic.

A lethal outbreak could partly explain why antiquity's mightiest
military machine was too enfeebled to repel the Visigoths, Huns, and
Vandals.

The discovery—the earliest genetic evidence of malaria yet
identified—has been hailed as a breakthrough in the collaboration
between archaeology and biomolecular science.

Excavations at a cemetery for infants in Lugnano, dated to the year
450, found a leg bone of a three-year-old child suffering from
Plasmodium falciparum, the most virulent form of human malaria.

Around 50 infants' skeletons were buried within a short period of
time, suggesting an epidemic. The smallest skeletons were too
degraded to produce DNA samples but some had pitted cranium surfaces—
another sign of malaria.

The disease is thought to have spawned panic: despite the fact that
Romans were by then officially Christians, pagan offerings such as a
raven's claw and decapitated puppy skeletons were found nearby.

Malaria is a mosquito-borne fever caused by a protozoan parasite
which thrives in warm, marshy areas such as the Tiber river valley.
The falciparum strain causes miscarriage and infant death.

Some historians had long suspected that malaria contributed to the
empire's decline and fall by sapping morale and manpower.

Robert Sallares, a research fellow at the University of Manchester
Institute of Science and Technology, and Susan Comz, a student,
reported their results in the journal Ancient Biomolecules.

The skeleton was recovered in the early 1990s by a team of
archaeologists led by David Soren of the University of Arizona. He
told the Washington Post that the DNA findings were new and
exciting. "The idea that this deadly type of malaria really existed
in imperial Rome had never been documented."

Rot set into the empire from the late second century. The economy
and army stagnated in the third and fourth centuries as Persians and
northern tribes encroached. Traditional historians say the western
empire was tottering when Alaric's Visigoths sacked Rome in 410.

In 452 Attila's Huns pillaged northern Italy on their way to Rome.
According to Christian chronicles, Pope Leo the Great confronted the
barbarian and talked him into withdrawing. The DNA analysis suggests
the real reason for the withdrawal may have been Attila's fear of
exposing his troops to a malaria epidemic.

It was a short respite. Three years later Gaiseric the Vandal sailed
from his pirate kingdom in north Africa to invade Italy and sack
Rome.

The western empire finally collapsed in 476 when Odoacer was crowned
king of Italy at Pavia.

Professor Michael Whitby, a historian at the University of Warwick,
said malaria would probably not have afflicted the legions as they
were mostly stationed in northern Italy.

"These armies could on occasion have been exposed to malarial areas
but not necessarily. However, if there was a serious outbreak and
agricultural prosperity suffered, then there could have been knock-
on effects on military supports."



Regards,

Qvintvs Svetonivs Pavlinvs

Salve Quinte Suetoni, et salvete quirites,

It's an interesting hypothesis, and I don't doubt that there was an epidemic
of malaria. But I find myself thinking that the barbarians must have been as
susceptable to malaria as the Romans. (See below about Atilla keeping his
troops away for fear they would contract malaria.) This leads me to think
that there was more than malaria at work.

Vale, et valete,

-- Marinus

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> writes:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> Perhaps we are all wrong on how Imperial Rome fell. Over the last
> few years there are numerous articles out there suggesting deadlier
> mosquitoes were imported from Africa, brought into Rome by ship and
> caravan bred with the Roman swamp mosquitoes creating a deadlier foe
> and strain! LOL, ah, the multicultural weakening theory again!-:
> Here is one of many articles out there that I picked since it is
> more laconic for this list:
>
> Skeleton Find Links Malaria to Fall of Rome
> Rory Carroll
> The Guardian
> (February 21, 2001)
>
>
> Analysis of the skeleton of a child buried on the eve of the fall of
> the Roman Empire has revealed that the barbarians may have had a
> secret ally: malaria.
>
> British and American researchers say that DNA from the 1,500-
> year-old bones, found in a cemetery north of Rome, yielded evidence
> of an epidemic.
>
> A lethal outbreak could partly explain why antiquity's mightiest
> military machine was too enfeebled to repel the Visigoths, Huns, and
> Vandals.
>
> The discovery—the earliest genetic evidence of malaria yet
> identified—has been hailed as a breakthrough in the collaboration
> between archaeology and biomolecular science.
>
> Excavations at a cemetery for infants in Lugnano, dated to the year
> 450, found a leg bone of a three-year-old child suffering from
> Plasmodium falciparum, the most virulent form of human malaria.
>
> Around 50 infants' skeletons were buried within a short period of
> time, suggesting an epidemic. The smallest skeletons were too
> degraded to produce DNA samples but some had pitted cranium surfaces—
> another sign of malaria.
>
> The disease is thought to have spawned panic: despite the fact that
> Romans were by then officially Christians, pagan offerings such as a
> raven's claw and decapitated puppy skeletons were found nearby.
>
> Malaria is a mosquito-borne fever caused by a protozoan parasite
> which thrives in warm, marshy areas such as the Tiber river valley.
> The falciparum strain causes miscarriage and infant death.
>
> Some historians had long suspected that malaria contributed to the
> empire's decline and fall by sapping morale and manpower.
>
> Robert Sallares, a research fellow at the University of Manchester
> Institute of Science and Technology, and Susan Comz, a student,
> reported their results in the journal Ancient Biomolecules.
>
> The skeleton was recovered in the early 1990s by a team of
> archaeologists led by David Soren of the University of Arizona. He
> told the Washington Post that the DNA findings were new and
> exciting. "The idea that this deadly type of malaria really existed
> in imperial Rome had never been documented."
>
> Rot set into the empire from the late second century. The economy
> and army stagnated in the third and fourth centuries as Persians and
> northern tribes encroached. Traditional historians say the western
> empire was tottering when Alaric's Visigoths sacked Rome in 410.
>
> In 452 Attila's Huns pillaged northern Italy on their way to Rome.
> According to Christian chronicles, Pope Leo the Great confronted the
> barbarian and talked him into withdrawing. The DNA analysis suggests
> the real reason for the withdrawal may have been Attila's fear of
> exposing his troops to a malaria epidemic.
>
> It was a short respite. Three years later Gaiseric the Vandal sailed
> from his pirate kingdom in north Africa to invade Italy and sack
> Rome.
>
> The western empire finally collapsed in 476 when Odoacer was crowned
> king of Italy at Pavia.
>
> Professor Michael Whitby, a historian at the University of Warwick,
> said malaria would probably not have afflicted the legions as they
> were mostly stationed in northern Italy.
>
> "These armies could on occasion have been exposed to malarial areas
> but not necessarily. However, if there was a serious outbreak and
> agricultural prosperity suffered, then there could have been knock-
> on effects on military supports."
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Qvintvs Svetonivs Pavlinvs

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve, G Corneli Lentule!

Many thanks for the suggestion - indeed, it sounds like good sense! I shall
now give it my consideration.

Best wishes and thanks

Vale optime

Sextus Pilatus Barbatus (mutuabitur)



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
Sent: 28 October 2005 14:52
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword



Salve, Pilate Barbate!

It's manifest for you to choose the gens Pontia,
because "Pilatus" is its proper cognomen: and so you
will be very near your present name - as "Sextus
Pontius Pilatus Barbatus".

Just a suggestion...

Vale, Barbate Collega!
LENTVLVS

--- Peter Bird <p.bird@...> ha scritto:

> Salve, M Lucreti Agricola ...
>
> Many thanks for your helpful suggestions, which I
> will now pursue.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus
>
>

VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete.

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:

>Salve Fusce
>
>Yes indeed, that is a far more credible explanation than the usual
>litany of finger pointing at either Caesar or Augustus.
>
>The Republic had staggered along for a number of years post the
>Gracchi on life-support. Restrictive self-interest and wilful
>blindness to the abuses of the system led the Senate and patricians
>to cultivate a society where breaking the rules and norms became a
>hallmark of success, and one which they frequently exploited to
>their own advantage, both as individuals and collectively. Caesar
>delivered the death-blow to a terminally sick institution and
>Augustus gave it a decent burial.
>
>

Arguably the decay began with the social and economic changes that led
to the Gracchi's attempted reforms in the first place. A period of near
constant warfare stretched the Roman's system of "part-time" military
service past its breaking point. Wars ravaged the countryside, and
soldiers were kept under arms far past the traditional campaigning
season, and their families in many cases were unable to keep up their
farms while they were gone. Many soldiers returning from years of
fighting found that farming no longer suited them, or that they were no
longer viable and sold them to wealthy landowners. Roman victories led
to a huge influx of slaves which allowed the creation of a plantation
style system of farming. Subsistence farming on small plots by
individual Roman citizens were replaced by huge farms, worked by slave
labor and owned by a small landed elite. Many of the displaced farmers,
once the backbone of the Roman state, became the hungry urban mob. The
reforms of Marius turned the citizen-soldier into a professionals who
depended on the patronage and largess of his general for his well being
ultimately which sowed the seeds of civil war. The irony is that the
Roman elite continued to cling to the ideal of the
citizen-farmer-soldier, which they themselves were responsible, in part,
for destroying.
Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus Felix

>Vale
>Gnaeus Iulius Caesar.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve Censor Marine et salvete quirities,

I certainly agree that there are many factors that contributed to
the fall of Rome and malaria or religions would not be the be all
and end all. Blaming multicultural factors was a joke on my part;
in reality because she tolorated and absorbed so many foreign
cultures Rome lasted far longer than any other empire to date and
great empires rose and fell before her.

Going back over notes here is an outline covering her fall for the
bebefit of new people to the list:

The Republic:

was gradually weakened during the Roman Revolution which lasted 100
years. The Roman government failed 1)to divise a sound system for
choosing able men to cope with crises, 2) to stop the graft and to
limit the military power of provincial governors, 3) to solve the
economic problems that were increasing within the proletariat. As a
result of this long revolution, various leaders kept struggling to
gain control of the Roman government. This included the Gracchi,
Marius, Sulla to Augustus as mentioned before.

The Empire:

again there were many causes. Some of them were:

1) weak emperors, 2) military weakness, 3)internal strife, 4)
economic depression which resulted in the decline of agriculture
industry and commerece thus ruining the middle class, 5) a decrease
in the population caused by constant wars, internal strife and
epidemics, 6) invasion and infiltration of the Germanic people into
the empire.

Just looking back from a "modern point of view", no matter what
religions or numbers of various gods empires have had they still
rise, expand, reach a zenith and fall. While I have been shown
before that ancient Romand who were worshiping their gods would have
felt they were being abandoned by their gods over the rise of
Christianity, I also see that the God of Abraham did not reward
Christian Rome after the gods were abandoned or outlawed; the west
still collapsed as seen above. Even the Christian Eastern Empire
which lasted about another milennia fell to the Muslims and the
great Muslim empire and center of learning in the east was crushed
by the infidel Mongols.

Finally, as for non-religious or various secular states, abolishing
or discouraging all religions and getting their folk to worship more
the stae did them precious litte good as well. When some people tell
me that "all" religion is the cause of all strife I merely ask them
to look to Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Maoist China. In my
opinion, politics and religions they come and go but greed goes on
forever!

Regards,

Qvintvs Svetonivs Paulinvs





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "CN•EQVIT•MARINVS \(Gnaeus
Equitius Marinus\)" <gawne@c...> wrote:

>
> Salve Quinte Suetoni, et salvete quirites,
>
> It's an interesting hypothesis, and I don't doubt that there was

an epidemic

> of malaria. But I find myself thinking that the barbarians must

have been as

> susceptable to malaria as the Romans. (See below about Atilla

keeping his

> troops away for fear they would contract malaria.) This leads me

to think

> that there was more than malaria at work.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> -- Marinus
>
> "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@d...> writes:
>
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Perhaps we are all wrong on how Imperial Rome fell. Over the last
> > few years there are numerous articles out there suggesting

deadlier

> > mosquitoes were imported from Africa, brought into Rome by ship

and

> > caravan bred with the Roman swamp mosquitoes creating a deadlier

foe

> > and strain! LOL, ah, the multicultural weakening theory again!-:
> > Here is one of many articles out there that I picked since it is
> > more laconic for this list:
> >
> > Skeleton Find Links Malaria to Fall of Rome
> > Rory Carroll
> > The Guardian
> > (February 21, 2001)
> >
> >
> > Analysis of the skeleton of a child buried on the eve of the

fall of

> > the Roman Empire has revealed that the barbarians may have had a
> > secret ally: malaria.
> >
> > British and American researchers say that DNA from the 1,500-
> > year-old bones, found in a cemetery north of Rome, yielded

evidence

> > of an epidemic.
> >
> > A lethal outbreak could partly explain why antiquity's mightiest
> > military machine was too enfeebled to repel the Visigoths, Huns,

and

> > Vandals.
> >
> > The discovery—the earliest genetic evidence of malaria yet
> > identified—has been hailed as a breakthrough in the collaboration
> > between archaeology and biomolecular science.
> >
> > Excavations at a cemetery for infants in Lugnano, dated to the

year

> > 450, found a leg bone of a three-year-old child suffering from
> > Plasmodium falciparum, the most virulent form of human malaria.
> >
> > Around 50 infants' skeletons were buried within a short period of
> > time, suggesting an epidemic. The smallest skeletons were too
> > degraded to produce DNA samples but some had pitted cranium

surfaces—

> > another sign of malaria.
> >
> > The disease is thought to have spawned panic: despite the fact

that

> > Romans were by then officially Christians, pagan offerings such

as a

> > raven's claw and decapitated puppy skeletons were found nearby.
> >
> > Malaria is a mosquito-borne fever caused by a protozoan parasite
> > which thrives in warm, marshy areas such as the Tiber river

valley.

> > The falciparum strain causes miscarriage and infant death.
> >
> > Some historians had long suspected that malaria contributed to

the

> > empire's decline and fall by sapping morale and manpower.
> >
> > Robert Sallares, a research fellow at the University of

Manchester

> > Institute of Science and Technology, and Susan Comz, a student,
> > reported their results in the journal Ancient Biomolecules.
> >
> > The skeleton was recovered in the early 1990s by a team of
> > archaeologists led by David Soren of the University of Arizona.

He

> > told the Washington Post that the DNA findings were new and
> > exciting. "The idea that this deadly type of malaria really

existed

> > in imperial Rome had never been documented."
> >
> > Rot set into the empire from the late second century. The economy
> > and army stagnated in the third and fourth centuries as Persians

and

> > northern tribes encroached. Traditional historians say the

western

> > empire was tottering when Alaric's Visigoths sacked Rome in 410.
> >
> > In 452 Attila's Huns pillaged northern Italy on their way to

Rome.

> > According to Christian chronicles, Pope Leo the Great confronted

the

> > barbarian and talked him into withdrawing. The DNA analysis

suggests

> > the real reason for the withdrawal may have been Attila's fear of
> > exposing his troops to a malaria epidemic.
> >
> > It was a short respite. Three years later Gaiseric the Vandal

sailed

> > from his pirate kingdom in north Africa to invade Italy and sack
> > Rome.
> >
> > The western empire finally collapsed in 476 when Odoacer was

crowned

> > king of Italy at Pavia.
> >
> > Professor Michael Whitby, a historian at the University of

Warwick,

> > said malaria would probably not have afflicted the legions as

they

> > were mostly stationed in northern Italy.
> >
> > "These armies could on occasion have been exposed to malarial

areas

> > but not necessarily. However, if there was a serious outbreak and
> > agricultural prosperity suffered, then there could have been

knock-

> > on effects on military supports."
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Qvintvs Svetonivs Pavlinvs
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

SOLUTION #2 and TEMPORARY CLASSIFICATION for the
Historical Contest of the Ludi Victoriae Sullanae

CN CORNELIUS LENTULUS QUIRITIBUS SPD:
Avete, in the name of Aed. Cur. L. Iulius Sulla!


Here are the correct answer and a temporary
classification for the 2nd question of our Certamen:


I. THE SOLUTION #2


QUAESTIO N°2 – Dictator Sulla was honoured a special
cognomen, too: he was called "Felix" because of his
perpetual felicity on the battlefields. But the Greek
part of the Roman world used another (Greek) word to
address him. This Greek name of Sulla was also famous:
but what was this?

RESPONSUM N°2 - This Greek name was "Epaphroditos"
("beloved by Aphrodite), as Plutarchos writes: "And,
finally, from this felicity, he requested to receive
the surname of Felix. In writing and transacting
business with the Greeks, he styled himself
Epaphroditus, and on his trophies which are still
extant with us, the name is given Leukios Kornelios
Syllas Epaphroditos."(Plutarch, Sulla's Life; 34).



II. TEMPORARY CLASSIFICATION
(The rules of Certamen Historicum:
http://www.cohorssullana.grafosystem.ro/rules.htm)

There are not so many in the race, uo to the present,
at least. But no problem: the contest is open and we
wait more participants also now. As for the present
state of our contest: contestants do contest cheek by
jowl:

1. Cn. Equitius Marinus 4 pts
1. T. Iulius Sabinus 4 pts
1. P. Memmius Albucius 4 pts

2. Sex. Apollonius Scipio 0 pts

Come on, let's go, Nova Romans! If you start now with
answering questions you can win still: the racing
starts just now!!!


VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae



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YOU CAN START sending answers anytime!!
You can begin NOW!!!

CN CORNELIVS LENTVLVS QVIRITIBVS SALVTEM DICIT:
Avete, in the name of Aedilis Curulis L. Iulius Sulla!

This is a Historical Contest not only for historians
but also for everyone who loves Roman history! It's
not important if you haven't done yesterday: you can
begin now!


And here follows the 3rd question for our Certamen
Historicum:


QUAESTIO N°3 - How many wifes had Sulla all trough his
life? What were their names?



It's not important if you haven't done yesterday: you
can begin now!!! We are waiting for you answers, and
remember that you have just to write at the following
email:
cnaeus_cornelius@...

Here are the rules of Certamen Historicum:
http://www.cohorssullana.grafosystem.ro/rules.htm




VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






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If it was not Augustus, it would be Mark Antony. Afterall if my memory serves me right, Antony sought to consolidate power for himself. Antony brought the situation about. Augustus merely closed shop. But I think it was best put:

"Caesar delivered the death-blow to a terminally sick institution and Augustus gave it a decent burial."

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
Salve Pauline, et salvete omnes,

Timothy P. Gallagher wrote:

> Its a good thing that Christians can only be blamed for
> the fall of the empire, Somebody else has to take the rap
> for killing the Republic.

I think we can lay that one squarely at the feet of G. Iulius Caesar
Octavianus, aka Augustus.

Vale, et valete,

-- Marinus


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A. Apollonius Cn. Lentulo Sex. Pilato omnibus sal.

> It's manifest for you to choose the gens Pontia,
> because "Pilatus" is its proper cognomen: and so you
> will be very near your present name - as "Sextus
> Pontius Pilatus Barbatus".

I would advise against that simply because it would
result in two cognomina. Of course there were citizens
in the republican era with two or more cognomina, but
these were generally only members of families so large
and fruitful that if they had had only one cognomen
each then it would have been very hard to tell them
apart. Romans generally had only as many cognomina as
they absolutely needed.



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Salvete omnes,

I just got some good news from another list. It looks like HBO's
Rome miniseries was very popular with good ratings so they are going
to do a second season. I have seen about half the series on Sat TV
in the field but do not have HBO at home being the cheapo I am at
times so I'll buy it on CD when it comes available.

While I have some misgivings about the series from it being a little
too sexually graphic for youngsters to an immature little brat of a
Cleopatra smoking on some sort of wacky tobacco pipe, I am indeed
encouraged the the topic of Ancient Rome is popular still with the
masses and draw a decent audience.

Also the documentary series, Battlefield Britain is out on CD now.
It covers the Boudiccan Rebellion - Battle of Britain. I cannot
recommend it enough. I always had trouble visualizing military
tactics on a 2 dimensional blackboard all my life but the computer
animation and reconstructions done in this series make such
understanding of the battles a piece of cake!

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

P. Memmius Albucius Censoribus s.d.

S.V.B.E.E.V.


I think that it would be interesting, in some weeks, that could be
available a table with, in one column, the previous name of our
citizens, and in another, their new name, for those of us who are
changing or have changed their praen./nomen/cognomen since the family
and adoption reform.

It will help us all to assimilate faster the new identity of the
concerned cives.

Valete Censores,

P. Memmius Albucius

Salve Tribune, et salvete quirites,

While I agree that such a table would be interesting, it would require more
time than my scribes and I have to offer. The business of being a censor is
surprisingly demanding.

Valete,

-- Marinus

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Tribune Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> writes:

> P. Memmius Albucius Censoribus s.d.
>
> S.V.B.E.E.V.
>
>
> I think that it would be interesting, in some weeks, that could be
> available a table with, in one column, the previous name of our
> citizens, and in another, their new name, for those of us who are
> changing or have changed their praen./nomen/cognomen since the family
> and adoption reform.
>
> It will help us all to assimilate faster the new identity of the
> concerned cives.
>
> Valete Censores,
>
> P. Memmius Albucius

---M. Hortensia Q. Suetoni Pauline spd;
actually Pauline I was thinking of Queen Salome Alexandra
a very interesting person indeed.
And as to Jezebal, she was a Phonecian, a worshipper of
Baal as her name indicates. The Jews of that period were quite
active worshippers of Baal, Astarte, Asherah etc. Not having
reseached Hebrew onomastics I cannot say, but I am sure there were
popular names that ended in 'baal'
There is a real tendency to equate what the Hebrew prophets said
as the norm and to ignore popular religion.

I refer those with an interest to the groundbreaking and fine
scholarly work of Professor Mark. S Smith "The Origins of Biblican
Monotheism; Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic
Texts." Or indeed William G. Dever's "Did God Have a Wife?" he is a
fine Biblical Archeological Scholar.

Lastly I recommend Lightfoot's annotated translation of "De Dea
Syria" all the Western Semitic gods (Atargatis, Asherah, Astarte,
various Baals) exhibit the jealousy, personal vindictiveness and
exclusivity we attribute to monotheism....
A small note, Allat, Manat, and Al-' Uzza, were the Arabian
goddesses who lodged in the Ka'aba of Mecca. Islam has polytheistic
origins as well
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Major

> I had thought that Phonecian name Jezebel would not have been a
> popular Jewish girls name since she kind of took over the state,

gave

> Elijah a pretty hard time and tried bringing in the worship of

Baal.

>
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia Q. Suetonio Paulino spd;
> > Pauline, actually Jews can use historical names that
> would
> > not be used by Christian, Salome is one I can think of. There

are

> > Jews and Christians, but no Judeo-Christians. Ego Iudaea sum!
> > bene vale
> > Marca Hortensia Major
> >
> >
> > much like you never hear Judeo-Christians using the name
> > > Jezebel
> > > > > today and throughout history.
> > > >
> > > > We'll get rid of it when we update the website. I will not
> > > currently
> > > > approve any applications to join that gens, given its
> > unfortunate
> > > history.
> > > >
> > > > Vale, et valete,
> > > >
> > > > -- Marinus
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I am unable to refrain from pointing out that any long-winded
cives with an interest in Roman law should consider Gens Hortensia;-)

Q. Hortensius was legendary for his speeches and of course there is
the wonderfully inspiring example of Hortensia who opposed the Oppian
Law and succeeded by means of her masterful oratory...
di deasque vos ament
Marca Hortensia Major TRP
Caput Officina Iuris
et Investigatio CFB

A. Apollonius M. Hortensiae omnibusque sal.

> Q. Hortensius was legendary for his speeches and of
> course there is
> the wonderfully inspiring example of Hortensia who
> opposed the Oppian
> Law and succeeded by means of her masterful
> oratory...

... or perhaps by means of her mistressful oratory. ;)



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Salve Marca Hortensia Major,

Thank you for the update and references. These religions are
certainly your cup of tea so at this point I'd best listen and learn
rather than talk.

Just one thing; I went through some articles on Jezebel yesterday
and there were a few essays of interest that say more likely than
not, she was not as evil or dispicable as the biblical chronicals
say but was probably a very strong, educated and influential leader
who was perhaps a little too far ahead for feminine standards of the
time and who felt that she had the rights to stick to her own
beliefs and ideas and not be run over by the establishment of the
times.

Well this is what I enjoy about NR; learning something new and
enlightning each day.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> ---M. Hortensia Q. Suetoni Pauline spd;
> actually Pauline I was thinking of Queen Salome
Alexandra
> a very interesting person indeed.
> And as to Jezebal, she was a Phonecian, a worshipper of
> Baal as her name indicates. The Jews of that period were quite
> active worshippers of Baal, Astarte, Asherah etc. Not having
> reseached Hebrew onomastics I cannot say, but I am sure there were
> popular names that ended in 'baal'
> There is a real tendency to equate what the Hebrew prophets
said
> as the norm and to ignore popular religion.
>
> I refer those with an interest to the groundbreaking and fine
> scholarly work of Professor Mark. S Smith "The Origins of Biblican
> Monotheism; Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic
> Texts." Or indeed William G. Dever's "Did God Have a Wife?" he is
a
> fine Biblical Archeological Scholar.
>
> Lastly I recommend Lightfoot's annotated translation of "De
Dea
> Syria" all the Western Semitic gods (Atargatis, Asherah, Astarte,
> various Baals) exhibit the jealousy, personal vindictiveness and
> exclusivity we attribute to monotheism....
> A small note, Allat, Manat, and Al-' Uzza, were the Arabian
> goddesses who lodged in the Ka'aba of Mecca. Islam has
polytheistic
> origins as well
> bene vale
> Marca Hortensia Major
>
>
>
>
> > I had thought that Phonecian name Jezebel would not have been a
> > popular Jewish girls name since she kind of took over the state,
> gave
> > Elijah a pretty hard time and tried bringing in the worship of
> Baal.
> >
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Hortensia Q. Suetonio Paulino spd;
> > > Pauline, actually Jews can use historical names that
> > would
> > > not be used by Christian, Salome is one I can think of. There
> are
> > > Jews and Christians, but no Judeo-Christians. Ego Iudaea sum!
> > > bene vale
> > > Marca Hortensia Major
> > >
> > >
> > > much like you never hear Judeo-Christians using the name
> > > > Jezebel
> > > > > > today and throughout history.
> > > > >
> > > > > We'll get rid of it when we update the website. I will
not
> > > > currently
> > > > > approve any applications to join that gens, given its
> > > unfortunate
> > > > history.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale, et valete,
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Marinus
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Salve Sextus Pilatus Barbatus

The picking of a new name is a straightforward process. You inform the Censors and you ask the Materfamilias Helena Galeria Aureliana to join the leading family in Nova Roma the Galeri.

Your new Materfamilias and an extended family will greet you with open arms, countless hugs and the washing up at our next family gathering.

The Few, the Proud, the Galeri

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Bird<mailto:p.bird@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword


Salve A Tullia Scholastica, salveque Lucreti Agricola - salveteque omnes!

Thank you for your advice. Come to think of it, to be known as a Sextus who
is not only bearded but also fast becoming hairy - and speared into the
bargain, or plundered, might not be the best way to be known... I chose
"Pilatus" from the official list originally. Of course, Pontius Pilate had
Pilate as his cognomen. OK, so I need to change it. Firstly, how is that
done? Secondly, has anyone got any suggestions, particularly in the
resurrection of names such as Lucretius Agricola suggested? Being relatively
new here, I would rather be guided in a proper direction!

Valete optime

Sextus Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of A. Tullia Scholastica
Sent: 28 October 2005 08:59
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword



Salve, Sexte Pilate Barbate amice, et salvete, omnes!

> Salvete, omnes!
>
> I have been following this long discussion on names very closely,
> particularly since the nomen that I took ^ Pilatus ^ does not fall within
> the IUS guideline. I therefore wondered whether I would have to change it.
> However, Opilatus, is given as both adjective and past participle in L&S.
Of
> course, its obvious meaning is Oarmed with javelins,, but its past
> participle turns out to be more interesting than I thought: Opilo, has two
> different meanings (both 1st conjugation): [1] to ram down or thrust home
> (which was what I thought it meant) and[2] to grow hairy!

...and then there's depilo...

>In the second
> sense it would perhaps sit nicely with my cognomen OBarbatus, ... There is
> apparently another rare meaning, though not pre-Augustan, of plundering.
>
> With all this in mind, could some kind onomastic expert give me some
advice
> on whether a name change is necessary or not?

No one is being compelled to change any part of his or her name, but
those who do not have correct nomina in particular are more or less being
encouraged to do so. Past participles are unusual, even as cognomina, or so
saith our research team members (of which I am not one, but I work with
them). Your nomen, unfortunately, does fall outside the guidelines. It's
up to you if you want to change it. Several people have made such inquiries
of the censores since the edictum was published, and some have changed one
part or another of their names.
>
> Gratias vobis ago.

Flocci est.
>
> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus.

A. Tullia Scholastica


>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> Sent: 27 October 2005 21:32
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
>
>
>
>> Salve, M. Lucreti Agricola, et salvete, omnes!
>>
>> Let me first congratulate you, M. Lucreti, on your new nomen!
>>
>> Salve,
>>
>> I am sure that "Gladius" as a nomen is unhistorical. Once or twice in
>> recent discussions I have seen it alluded to, and not as an example to
>> follow. It is also not listed on the "names" page. Purely as a guess
>> therefore I would speculate that there will be no new Gladii except by
>> birth or adoption.
>>
>> ATS: Morphologically, 'gladius' falls within the guidelines set in
> the
>> (hopefully) preliminary edictum just published, but it is indeed a noun,
> not
>> an adjective as nomina must be. Like Lanius, it is a marginal case,
> however,
>> for it is just on the barest fringe of possibility that an adjective of
>> identical form could be created from either of these names-but no such
>> adjective is in my unabridged Latin dictionaries, the better and more
> recent
>> of which extends well into the common era.
>>
>> It must be said, however, that there are gentes which have nomina
> which
>> clearly do not fall within even this very preliminary guideline, some for
>> similar reasons, i.e., that the nomen is a noun, not an adjective, and
> some
>> for other reasons. I would hesitate to list these without censorial
>> permission lest we encounter more problems relating to the sensitivity of
> such
>> issues, but perhaps those interested may contact the censores directly
and
>> discuss the matter with them.
>>
>> Personally I had always felt a little uneasy about it, but I was very
>> happy to be associated with Cyrene. I am very happy indeed that she
>> has joined me in this change.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps I should mention that there are very nice, historical names
>> still unused. It is an interesting exercise to google a nomen plus the
>> word "denarius" and see if any hits come up for coins minted by a
>> member of the gens in question.
>>
>>
>> Optime Vale
>>
>> M. Lucretius Agricola
>>
>> Vale, et valete,
>>
>> A. Tullia Scholastica
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>, David Kling <tau.athanasios@g<mailto:tau.athanasios@g>...>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Salve:
>>>> Congratulations, I love the nomen Lucretius!
>>>> Question, is Gladius no longer a viable Nomen? I noticed the former
>> Mater
>>>> Familias is a Lucretius also.
>>>> Vale;
>>>> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
>>>>
>>>> On 10/26/05, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@y<mailto:wm_hogue@y>...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By kind permission of the Censores I have put down the sword and
> will
>>>>>> no longer be known as Marcus Gladius Agricola, but rather as Marcus
>>>>>> Lucretius Agricola.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to the Censores and to all Citizens for this opportunity to
>>>>>> take up this ancient name. I pledge to do what little I can to honor
>>>>>> the traditions of my adopted ancestors. I will attempt to continue
> to
>>>>>> grow in the Religio, I will also continue to honor Apollo and to
>>>>>> attempt to be a bridge between the Roman world and that of the
>> Hellenes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Di vos incolumes custodiant
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>





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Salve Omnes,

In my opinion, Rome began to die when the Repubic ended. I await the comments of more learned citizens, but that's my two sesterce's worth!

Vale optime,

G. Licinius Crassus

M•IVL•SEVERVS <marcusiuliusseverus@...> wrote:
Salvete omnes,

On October 28 in the year 312, 1693 years ago, Constantine defeated the army of Maxentius, at Milvian Bridge, after trusting in a vision he supposedly had seen of the cross, inscribed with the words, "In this sign conquer." Constantine was converted soon after and became the first Roman emperor to embrace the Christian faith, which he imposed as the religion of the State. He did so with a ferocious intolerance, excluding and reactionary, that contrasted with the traditional Roman tolerance.
I've always thought about this date, as the real beginning of the decay of Rome...

Vale optime,

M•IVL•SEVERVS

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve omnes

I am wondering, now that the gens Pontia has been mentioned, if that gens is empty due to a latent rejection of that name for its Christian association, or is it simply 'unpopular' for another reason?

Vale, et valete,

G. Licinius Crassus



"M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
M. Lucretius Agricola Sexto Pilato Barbato Omnibus S.P.D.

I am by no means an expert, but it is my opinion that "Pilatus" would
be approprate as a cognomen, not as a nomen. Of course there is the
person mentioned in the christian bible, "Pontius Pilate" in English,
I suppose "Pontius Pilatus" in Latin. In this case the praenomen is lost.

I just looked at the Album Gentium and our gens Pontia is now empty.



It is my opinion, and JUST my opinion, that this is a good time for
citizens to take a look at their names. The album civium is greatly
reduced, a number of gentes are now empty, even gentes with honorable
and historical names. Now is the chance, in my opinion, for us to
honor some of the families that actually built Rome. The first step
would be to take their names, thoughtfully and deliberately,
especially putting aside any vanity. The next step would be to use the
memory of those who held these names in the past as a spur and a guide
to greater activity and service within this Republic.


We now have five citizens in gens Lucretia, all former Gladii. I still
hope that the remaining Gladii will join us. I would also welcome any
citizen with a problematic or unhistorical nomen into the gens, of
course, but citizens who keep the Religio, who honor Apollo, who have
an interest in Hellenism as well as Romanitas and who strive to offer
service to the Republic, patrician or plebian, would be particularly
welcome.

Optime valete.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Bird" <p.bird@n...> wrote:
>
> Salvete, omnes!
>
> I have been following this long discussion on names very closely,
> particularly since the nomen that I took – Pilatus – does not fall
within
> the IUS guideline. I therefore wondered whether I would have to
change it.
> However, `pilatus' is given as both adjective and past participle in
L&S. Of
> course, its obvious meaning is `armed with javelins', but its past
> participle turns out to be more interesting than I thought: `pilo'
has two
> different meanings (both 1st conjugation): [1] to ram down or thrust
home
> (which was what I thought it meant) and[2] to grow hairy! In the second
> sense it would perhaps sit nicely with my cognomen `Barbatus' ...
There is
> apparently another rare meaning, though not pre-Augustan, of plundering.
>
> With all this in mind, could some kind onomastic expert give me some
advice
> on whether a name change is necessary or not?
>
> Gratias vobis ago.
>
> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
> Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> Sent: 27 October 2005 21:32
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
>
>
>
> > Salve, M. Lucreti Agricola, et salvete, omnes!
> >
> > Let me first congratulate you, M. Lucreti, on your new nomen!
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > I am sure that "Gladius" as a nomen is unhistorical. Once or twice in
> > recent discussions I have seen it alluded to, and not as an example to
> > follow. It is also not listed on the "names" page. Purely as a guess
> > therefore I would speculate that there will be no new Gladii except by
> > birth or adoption.
> >
> > ATS: Morphologically, Œgladius¹ falls within the guidelines
set in
> the
> > (hopefully) preliminary edictum just published, but it is indeed a
noun,
> not
> > an adjective as nomina must be. Like Lanius, it is a marginal case,
> however,
> > for it is just on the barest fringe of possibility that an
adjective of
> > identical form could be created from either of these names‹but no such
> > adjective is in my unabridged Latin dictionaries, the better and more
> recent
> > of which extends well into the common era.
> >
> > It must be said, however, that there are gentes which have nomina
> which
> > clearly do not fall within even this very preliminary guideline,
some for
> > similar reasons, i.e., that the nomen is a noun, not an adjective, and
> some
> > for other reasons. I would hesitate to list these without censorial
> > permission lest we encounter more problems relating to the
sensitivity of
> such
> > issues, but perhaps those interested may contact the censores
directly and
> > discuss the matter with them.
> >
> > Personally I had always felt a little uneasy about it, but I was very
> > happy to be associated with Cyrene. I am very happy indeed that she
> > has joined me in this change.
> >
> >
> > Perhaps I should mention that there are very nice, historical names
> > still unused. It is an interesting exercise to google a nomen plus the
> > word "denarius" and see if any hits come up for coins minted by a
> > member of the gens in question.
> >
> >
> > Optime Vale
> >
> > M. Lucretius Agricola
> >
> > Vale, et valete,
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica
> >
> >
> >
> >






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Salve Gai Licini Crasse et salvete omnes,

Hard to tell. As observed before some a notable gens names are empty.
Now I see that my gens name was totally vacant when I adopted my new
family name this week; its most famous members, Suetonius the
historian who wrote the 12 Caesars and Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, the
Roman governor and general in Britannia who crushed the Boudiccan
Rebellion in the reign of Nero are far removed from a Christian
association. I do not know why Pontia would have a great precieved
Christian association for afterall Pilate who ultimmately ordered
the execution of Christ, though venerated as a repentent saint by
some Eastern Christian sects was more often than not considered
rather cowardly in his administration of Roman justice in the RC
church as I remember; in short he wasn't a great lover or believer
in Christ. Finally, the gens Constantinius has at least 10 members
and perhaps more before. I am sure it could have been larger but I
believe they tried to keep membership limited to within the Italian
province for pratical reasons I can understand.

All in all we have a gentium list of many paradoxes don't you think?

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Licinius Crassus
<g_licinius_crassus@y...> wrote:

>
> Salve omnes
>
> I am wondering, now that the gens Pontia has been mentioned, if

that gens is empty due to a latent rejection of that name for its
Christian association, or is it simply 'unpopular' for another
reason?

>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> G. Licinius Crassus
>
>
>
> "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@y...> wrote:
> M. Lucretius Agricola Sexto Pilato Barbato Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I am by no means an expert, but it is my opinion that "Pilatus"

would

> be approprate as a cognomen, not as a nomen. Of course there is the
> person mentioned in the christian bible, "Pontius Pilate" in

English,

> I suppose "Pontius Pilatus" in Latin. In this case the praenomen

is lost.

>
> I just looked at the Album Gentium and our gens Pontia is now

empty.

>
>
>
> It is my opinion, and JUST my opinion, that this is a good time for
> citizens to take a look at their names. The album civium is greatly
> reduced, a number of gentes are now empty, even gentes with

honorable

> and historical names. Now is the chance, in my opinion, for us to
> honor some of the families that actually built Rome. The first step
> would be to take their names, thoughtfully and deliberately,
> especially putting aside any vanity. The next step would be to use

the

> memory of those who held these names in the past as a spur and a

guide

> to greater activity and service within this Republic.
>
>
> We now have five citizens in gens Lucretia, all former Gladii. I

still

> hope that the remaining Gladii will join us. I would also welcome

any

> citizen with a problematic or unhistorical nomen into the gens, of
> course, but citizens who keep the Religio, who honor Apollo, who

have

> an interest in Hellenism as well as Romanitas and who strive to

offer

> service to the Republic, patrician or plebian, would be

particularly

> welcome.
>
> Optime valete.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Bird" <p.bird@n...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete, omnes!
> >
> > I have been following this long discussion on names very closely,
> > particularly since the nomen that I took – Pilatus – does not

fall

> within
> > the IUS guideline. I therefore wondered whether I would have to
> change it.
> > However, `pilatus' is given as both adjective and past

participle in

> L&S. Of
> > course, its obvious meaning is `armed with javelins', but its

past

> > participle turns out to be more interesting than I thought:

`pilo'

> has two
> > different meanings (both 1st conjugation): [1] to ram down or

thrust

> home
> > (which was what I thought it meant) and[2] to grow hairy! In the

second

> > sense it would perhaps sit nicely with my cognomen `Barbatus' ...
> There is
> > apparently another rare meaning, though not pre-Augustan, of

plundering.

> >
> > With all this in mind, could some kind onomastic expert give me

some

> advice
> > on whether a name change is necessary or not?
> >
> > Gratias vobis ago.
> >
> > Sextus Pilatus Barbatus.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-

Roma@yahoogroups.com]

> On Behalf
> > Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> > Sent: 27 October 2005 21:32
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
> >
> >
> >
> > > Salve, M. Lucreti Agricola, et salvete, omnes!
> > >
> > > Let me first congratulate you, M. Lucreti, on your new

nomen!

> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > I am sure that "Gladius" as a nomen is unhistorical. Once or

twice in

> > > recent discussions I have seen it alluded to, and not as an

example to

> > > follow. It is also not listed on the "names" page. Purely as a

guess

> > > therefore I would speculate that there will be no new Gladii

except by

> > > birth or adoption.
> > >
> > > ATS: Morphologically, Œgladius¹ falls within the

guidelines

> set in
> > the
> > > (hopefully) preliminary edictum just published, but it is

indeed a

> noun,
> > not
> > > an adjective as nomina must be. Like Lanius, it is a marginal

case,

> > however,
> > > for it is just on the barest fringe of possibility that an
> adjective of
> > > identical form could be created from either of these names‹but

no such

> > > adjective is in my unabridged Latin dictionaries, the better

and more

> > recent
> > > of which extends well into the common era.
> > >
> > > It must be said, however, that there are gentes which have

nomina

> > which
> > > clearly do not fall within even this very preliminary

guideline,

> some for
> > > similar reasons, i.e., that the nomen is a noun, not an

adjective, and

> > some
> > > for other reasons. I would hesitate to list these without

censorial

> > > permission lest we encounter more problems relating to the
> sensitivity of
> > such
> > > issues, but perhaps those interested may contact the censores
> directly and
> > > discuss the matter with them.
> > >
> > > Personally I had always felt a little uneasy about it, but I

was very

> > > happy to be associated with Cyrene. I am very happy indeed

that she

> > > has joined me in this change.
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps I should mention that there are very nice, historical

names

> > > still unused. It is an interesting exercise to google a nomen

plus the

> > > word "denarius" and see if any hits come up for coins minted

by a

> > > member of the gens in question.
> > >
> > >
> > > Optime Vale
> > >
> > > M. Lucretius Agricola
> > >
> > > Vale, et valete,
> > >
> > > A. Tullia Scholastica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete omnibus,

After a few bumps in the road, my citizenship application (along with a late-breaking name change!) has been provisionally approved. To all those who assisted me along the way- and there are many, certainly- I give my thanks and appreciation for your time and effort to keep me on the straight and narrow.

For those of you who are keeping track of such things, I had until now been posting under my original name of Tiberius Gladius Germanicus; obviously there were problems with this, which have since been corrected to the Censor's satisfaction. My official name is now:

Gaius Licinius Crassus

And now, on to the next hurdle- The Test...!


Vale, et valete,

G. Licinius Crassus

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Cn. Lentulus C. Crasso SD:

Salve, Crasse!

I congratulate you, and I'm glad that I could be a
"nurse" with our private conversation when your name
was burn.
Feliciter in nostra Nova Roma!

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus PROPR

--- Gaius Licinius Crassus
<g_licinius_crassus@...> ha scritto:


---------------------------------
Salvete omnibus,

After a few bumps in the road, my citizenship
application (along with a late-breaking name change!)
has been provisionally approved. To all those who
assisted me along the way- and there are many,
certainly- I give my thanks and appreciation for your
time and effort to keep me on the straight and narrow.

For those of you who are keeping track of such things,
I had until now been posting under my original name of
Tiberius Gladius Germanicus; obviously there were
problems with this, which have since been corrected to
the Censor's satisfaction. My official name is now:

Gaius Licinius Crassus

And now, on to the next hurdle- The Test...!


Vale, et valete,

G. Licinius Crassus

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Lentulus Cordo Pilatoque et omnibus ciuibus salutem:


--- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> ha scritto:

>>>I would advise against that simply because it would

result in two cognomina. Of course there were citizens
in the republican era with two or more cognomina, but
these were generally only members of families so large
and fruitful that if they had had only one cognomen
each then it would have been very hard to tell them
apart. Romans generally had only as many cognomina as
they absolutely needed.<<<


That's all true. I hope however it won't be forbidden
to have 2 or more cognomina in NR for those applicants
who can justify why do they adhere to. For example,
Sex. Pilatus Barbatus is such a person, I think he
wouldn't accumulate names without any reason.
I myself don't like to see very long names without
rationale, (a fictive example: C. Trebatius Fusus
Camillus Bolanus Scapula Terentianus Marcellinus
Bambalio :-), but, if somebody can explaine why did
choose a long name, it must be accepted (only if it's
historical and proper).

Furthermore I just wanted remember that there were
many long names (even in the early republic too),
aristocrats with 4 names are general, but it was not
rare with 5 as like as:
Appius Claudius Crassinus Inregillensis Sabinus,
Lucius Cornelius Maluginensis Uritus Cossus...

VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






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M.Hortensia Q. Suetonio Paulino spd;
right now I am taking a graduate course in religion so I'm more
than happy to share the new research etc. I find it all very
fascinating!
Here is Lucian's "Dea Dea Syria" taken from the Loeb edition online
so enjoy: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/deasyria-intro.html

It's very entertaining, and the latest evidence shows that he was
quite accurate in describing the cult of Atagartis, catch the hermit
on the pillar....
optime vale
Marca Hortensia Major

>
> >
> Well this is what I enjoy about NR; learning something new and
> enlightning each day.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
> >

SALVE AMICE !

Sulla had four wives.

first - Julia ( IIia in the Plutarch texts )
second - Aelia.
third - Caecilia Metella Dalmatica.
fourth - Valeria Mesal(l)a.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:


QUAESTIO N°3 - How many wifes had Sulla all trough his
life? What were their names?











---------------------------------






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE !

Nice ! I "spoiled" the game. Amici, Lentule, my excuses.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, iulius sabinus
<iulius_sabinus@y...> wrote:

>
> SALVE AMICE !
>
> Sulla had four wives.
>
> first - Julia ( IIia in the Plutarch texts )
> second - Aelia.
> third - Caecilia Metella Dalmatica.
> fourth - Valeria Mesal(l)a.
>
> VALE BENE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@y...> wrote:
>
>
> QUAESTIO N°3 - How many wifes had Sulla all trough his
> life? What were their names?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Every individual is the arhitect of his own fortune" - Appius

Claudius

>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve, Sexte Pilate Barbate, et salvete, omnes!

> Salve A Tullia Scholastica, salveque Lucreti Agricola ˆ salveteque omnes!
>
> Thank you for your advice. Come to think of it, to be known as a Sextus who
> is not only bearded but also fast becoming hairy ˆ and speared into the
> bargain, or plundered, might not be the best way to be known...

As you probably know, the OLD has three different first conjugation
verbs spelled 'pilo,' though the first one has a long i...(1) fix firmly;
(2) deprive of hair or feathers (3) grow hairy. It would seem that (2) and
(3) are somewhat inconsistent, nonne?

>I chose
> „Pilatus‰ from the official list originally. Of course, Pontius Pilate had
> Pilate as his cognomen.

And he's not a guy I would have suspected that you would care to
imitate.

>OK, so I need to change it. Firstly, how is that
> done?

Others have answered this--just write to your friendly, neighborhood
censor. Several citizens have in recent days.

>Secondly, has anyone got any suggestions, particularly in the
> resurrection of names such as Lucretius Agricola suggested? Being relatively
> new here, I would rather be guided in a proper direction!

The Album Gentium might be a good place to start, but there are other
gentes not represented which might be good choices; I believe that we had a
petition for the gens Terentia the other day. Makes sense for a
classicist...or Tullia...or those of other well-known writers. (Maccius,
Cornelius, Vergilius...)

>
> Valete optime
>
> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus

Vale, et valete,


A. Tullia Scholastica

>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> Sent: 28 October 2005 08:59
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
>
>
>
> Salve, Sexte Pilate Barbate amice, et salvete, omnes!
>
>> Salvete, omnes!
>>
>> I have been following this long discussion on names very closely,
>> particularly since the nomen that I took √ Pilatus √ does not fall within
>> the IUS guideline. I therefore wondered whether I would have to change it.
>> However, ‘pilatus≠ is given as both adjective and past participle in L&S.
> Of
>> course, its obvious meaning is ‘armed with javelins≠, but its past
>> participle turns out to be more interesting than I thought: ‘pilo≠ has two
>> different meanings (both 1st conjugation): [1] to ram down or thrust home
>> (which was what I thought it meant) and[2] to grow hairy!
>
> ...and then there's depilo...
>
>> In the second
>> sense it would perhaps sit nicely with my cognomen ‘Barbatus≠ ... There is
>> apparently another rare meaning, though not pre-Augustan, of plundering.
>>
>> With all this in mind, could some kind onomastic expert give me some
> advice
>> on whether a name change is necessary or not?
>
> No one is being compelled to change any part of his or her name, but
> those who do not have correct nomina in particular are more or less being
> encouraged to do so. Past participles are unusual, even as cognomina, or so
> saith our research team members (of which I am not one, but I work with
> them). Your nomen, unfortunately, does fall outside the guidelines. It's
> up to you if you want to change it. Several people have made such inquiries
> of the censores since the edictum was published, and some have changed one
> part or another of their names.
>>
>> Gratias vobis ago.
>
> Flocci est.
>>
>> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus.
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
>> Of A. Tullia Scholastica
>> Sent: 27 October 2005 21:32
>> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
>>
>>
>>
>>> Salve, M. Lucreti Agricola, et salvete, omnes!
>>>
>>> Let me first congratulate you, M. Lucreti, on your new nomen!
>>>
>>> Salve,
>>>
>>> I am sure that "Gladius" as a nomen is unhistorical. Once or twice in
>>> recent discussions I have seen it alluded to, and not as an example to
>>> follow. It is also not listed on the "names" page. Purely as a guess
>>> therefore I would speculate that there will be no new Gladii except by
>>> birth or adoption.
>>>
>>> ATS: Morphologically, Œgladius‚ falls within the guidelines set in
>> the
>>> (hopefully) preliminary edictum just published, but it is indeed a noun,
>> not
>>> an adjective as nomina must be. Like Lanius, it is a marginal case,
>> however,
>>> for it is just on the barest fringe of possibility that an adjective of
>>> identical form could be created from either of these namesËœbut no such
>>> adjective is in my unabridged Latin dictionaries, the better and more
>> recent
>>> of which extends well into the common era.
>>>
>>> It must be said, however, that there are gentes which have nomina
>> which
>>> clearly do not fall within even this very preliminary guideline, some for
>>> similar reasons, i.e., that the nomen is a noun, not an adjective, and
>> some
>>> for other reasons. I would hesitate to list these without censorial
>>> permission lest we encounter more problems relating to the sensitivity of
>> such
>>> issues, but perhaps those interested may contact the censores directly
> and
>>> discuss the matter with them.
>>>
>>> Personally I had always felt a little uneasy about it, but I was very
>>> happy to be associated with Cyrene. I am very happy indeed that she
>>> has joined me in this change.
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps I should mention that there are very nice, historical names
>>> still unused. It is an interesting exercise to google a nomen plus the
>>> word "denarius" and see if any hits come up for coins minted by a
>>> member of the gens in question.
>>>
>>>
>>> Optime Vale
>>>
>>> M. Lucretius Agricola
>>>
>>> Vale, et valete,
>>>
>>> A. Tullia Scholastica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@g...>
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Salve:
>>>>> Congratulations, I love the nomen Lucretius!
>>>>> Question, is Gladius no longer a viable Nomen? I noticed the former
>>> Mater
>>>>> Familias is a Lucretius also.
>>>>> Vale;
>>>>> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/26/05, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@y...> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By kind permission of the Censores I have put down the sword and
>> will
>>>>>>> no longer be known as Marcus Gladius Agricola, but rather as Marcus
>>>>>>> Lucretius Agricola.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks to the Censores and to all Citizens for this opportunity to
>>>>>>> take up this ancient name. I pledge to do what little I can to honor
>>>>>>> the traditions of my adopted ancestors. I will attempt to continue
>> to
>>>>>>> grow in the Religio, I will also continue to honor Apollo and to
>>>>>>> attempt to be a bridge between the Roman world and that of the
>>> Hellenes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Di vos incolumes custodiant
>>>>>>>
>>

Salve iterum, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 08:33:07PM -0400, Timothy P. Gallagher wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius Scaevola
>
> Thank you for engaging in the debate on this issue.
>
> The reasons I have suggest this action is that at one time this year a
> large number of elected officials had missed the deadline for the
> payment of taxes. Payment of taxes is a requirement to stand for and
> remain in office. If candidates paid before an election or new
> magistrate paid within a short period of taking the oath we would not
> lurch from crisis to crisis as we often do. A lex adopted now that
> requires either payment to stand for office or requires payment just
> after election will keep in front of our new Magistrates one of the
> primary duties as a citizen. The paying of taxes.

I believe that I understand quite clearly the reason for your proposal,
and have no argument against those reasons: magistrates' taxes must, of
course, be paid - as an example to be followed, if nothing else. My
issue arises with your proposed *solution*, which results in punishing
everyone _except_ the person who forgot or neglected to pay.

Your idea of requiring anyone standing for a magistracy to pay the next
year's dues in advance is an excellent one and would prevent the problem
you describe from arising in the first place. *That* is the kind of
solution that I like to see - one that punishes no one as well as
providing incentive to pay the taxes (there are several other, more
subtle effects, that I can see, most of them positive ones.) Punishment
of any sort, except for egregious violations - note that Nova Roman law
provides for barely a slap on the wrist for non-payment of taxes in the
common case - is, in my opinion, out of order for a volunteer
organization. Where no strong direct incentive to join or stay exists, I
see it as strongly counterproductive to create *dis*incentives - and
punishment, by its nature, is precisely that.

> Lastly requiring that an elected official do something earlier than
> that of the general population is not a penalty but a condition on
> which your service depends.

The far greater, far more important requirement of that service is the
desire to continue performing it. We do not have the means to compel
service from our magistrates or to prevent them from resigning; I see no
sense in adding yet another obstacle to their completion of that
service.

Pre-payment of taxes at election time would be a reasonable measure; so
would, e.g., weekly reminder emails sent to all magistrates who have not
yet paid their taxes, starting six weeks before the deadline. Denying
the Res Publica their services because their check went astray is, in my
opinion, a "solution" that creates very little benefit in the best case,
and does great harm in the worst.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit.
No fort is so strong that it cannot be taken with money.
-- Cicero, "In Verrem"

M.Hortensia Sex. Pilato Barbato spd;
I cannot resist jumping in with suggestions. Naturally
as Aula Tullia suggests there is
Terentius

but how about Vatinius (the neo-pythagorean),
Nigidius (Etruscan & antiquarian)
Arria (stoic)
Cornificia (poet!)
Fulvia (politician)

I'll make myself stop, but I enjoy seeing these wonderful names
revived! If only I possessed that mistressful oratory that Cordus
recommended;-)
vale
Marca Hortensia Major

> The Album Gentium might be a good place to start, but there

are other

> gentes not represented which might be good choices; I believe that

we had a

> petition for the gens Terentia the other day. Makes sense for a
> classicist...or Tullia...or those of other well-known writers.

(Maccius,

> Cornelius, Vergilius...)
> >
> > Valete optime
> >
> > Sextus Pilatus Barbatus
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-

Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> > Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> > Sent: 28 October 2005 08:59
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve, Sexte Pilate Barbate amice, et salvete, omnes!
> >
> >> Salvete, omnes!
> >>
> >> I have been following this long discussion on names very

closely,

> >> particularly since the nomen that I took √ Pilatus √ does

not fall within

> >> the IUS guideline. I therefore wondered whether I would have to

change it.

> >> However, ‘pilatus≠ is given as both adjective and past

participle in L&S.

> > Of
> >> course, its obvious meaning is ‘armed with javelins≠, but

its past

> >> participle turns out to be more interesting than I thought:

‘pilo≠ has two

> >> different meanings (both 1st conjugation): [1] to ram down or

thrust home

> >> (which was what I thought it meant) and[2] to grow hairy!
> >
> > ...and then there's depilo...
> >
> >> In the second
> >> sense it would perhaps sit nicely with my cognomen

‘Barbatus≠ ... There is

> >> apparently another rare meaning, though not pre-Augustan, of

plundering.

> >>
> >> With all this in mind, could some kind onomastic expert give me

some

> > advice
> >> on whether a name change is necessary or not?
> >
> > No one is being compelled to change any part of his or her

name, but

> > those who do not have correct nomina in particular are more or

less being

> > encouraged to do so. Past participles are unusual, even as

cognomina, or so

> > saith our research team members (of which I am not one, but I

work with

> > them). Your nomen, unfortunately, does fall outside the

guidelines. It's

> > up to you if you want to change it. Several people have made

such inquiries

> > of the censores since the edictum was published, and some have

changed one

> > part or another of their names.
> >>
> >> Gratias vobis ago.
> >
> > Flocci est.
> >>
> >> Sextus Pilatus Barbatus.
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-

Roma@yahoogroups.com] On

> > Behalf
> >> Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> >> Sent: 27 October 2005 21:32
> >> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Salve, M. Lucreti Agricola, et salvete, omnes!
> >>>
> >>> Let me first congratulate you, M. Lucreti, on your new

nomen!

> >>>
> >>> Salve,
> >>>
> >>> I am sure that "Gladius" as a nomen is unhistorical. Once or

twice in

> >>> recent discussions I have seen it alluded to, and not as an

example to

> >>> follow. It is also not listed on the "names" page. Purely as a

guess

> >>> therefore I would speculate that there will be no new Gladii

except by

> >>> birth or adoption.
> >>>
> >>> ATS: Morphologically, Å'gladius‚ falls within the

guidelines set in

> >> the
> >>> (hopefully) preliminary edictum just published, but it is

indeed a noun,

> >> not
> >>> an adjective as nomina must be. Like Lanius, it is a marginal

case,

> >> however,
> >>> for it is just on the barest fringe of possibility that an

adjective of

> >>> identical form could be created from either of these

names˜but no such

> >>> adjective is in my unabridged Latin dictionaries, the better

and more

> >> recent
> >>> of which extends well into the common era.
> >>>
> >>> It must be said, however, that there are gentes which have

nomina

> >> which
> >>> clearly do not fall within even this very preliminary

guideline, some for

> >>> similar reasons, i.e., that the nomen is a noun, not an

adjective, and

> >> some
> >>> for other reasons. I would hesitate to list these without

censorial

> >>> permission lest we encounter more problems relating to the

sensitivity of

> >> such
> >>> issues, but perhaps those interested may contact the censores

directly

> > and
> >>> discuss the matter with them.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I had always felt a little uneasy about it, but I

was very

> >>> happy to be associated with Cyrene. I am very happy indeed

that she

> >>> has joined me in this change.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps I should mention that there are very nice, historical

names

> >>> still unused. It is an interesting exercise to google a nomen

plus the

> >>> word "denarius" and see if any hits come up for coins minted

by a

> >>> member of the gens in question.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Optime Vale
> >>>
> >>> M. Lucretius Agricola
> >>>
> >>> Vale, et valete,
> >>>
> >>> A. Tullia Scholastica
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling

<tau.athanasios@g...>

> > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Salve:
> >>>>> Congratulations, I love the nomen Lucretius!
> >>>>> Question, is Gladius no longer a viable Nomen? I noticed

the former

> >>> Mater
> >>>>> Familias is a Lucretius also.
> >>>>> Vale;
> >>>>> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 10/26/05, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@y...> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> By kind permission of the Censores I have put down the

sword and

> >> will
> >>>>>>> no longer be known as Marcus Gladius Agricola, but rather

as Marcus

> >>>>>>> Lucretius Agricola.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks to the Censores and to all Citizens for this

opportunity to

> >>>>>>> take up this ancient name. I pledge to do what little I

can to honor

> >>>>>>> the traditions of my adopted ancestors. I will attempt to

continue

> >> to
> >>>>>>> grow in the Religio, I will also continue to honor Apollo

and to

> >>>>>>> attempt to be a bridge between the Roman world and that of

the

> >>> Hellenes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Di vos incolumes custodiant
> >>>>>>>
> >>
>

Salvete omnes, praesertim eos qui mihi bona consilia dedistis ...

Well, it�s done ! pace A Apollonius Cordus, I now have two cognomina � but
for a good reason! Firstly, of course, to be grammatically and onomastically
correct in the name, and secondly because I have always been intrigued by
Pontius Pilate. There is no smoke without fire, and therefore there must be
a good reason why he is revered as a saint in the Coptic Church. The
biblical accounts are somewhat ambiguous, yet there is an apocryphal Gospel
of Pilate. I had to keep �Barbatus� for the simple reason that it describes
me!

Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova Roma belong to the gens
Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others could get in touch?

Thank you to all who gave me advice on the name-change.

Best wishes.

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
Sent: 28 October 2005 23:19
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword



Salve Gai Licini Crasse et salvete omnes,

Hard to tell. As observed before some a notable gens names are empty.
Now I see that my gens name was totally vacant when I adopted my new
family name this week; its most famous members, Suetonius the
historian who wrote the 12 Caesars and Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, the
Roman governor and general in Britannia who crushed the Boudiccan
Rebellion in the reign of Nero are far removed from a Christian
association. I do not know why Pontia would have a great precieved
Christian association for afterall Pilate who ultimmately ordered
the execution of Christ, though venerated as a repentent saint by
some Eastern Christian sects was more often than not considered
rather cowardly in his administration of Roman justice in the RC
church as I remember; in short he wasn't a great lover or believer
in Christ. Finally, the gens Constantinius has at least 10 members
and perhaps more before. I am sure it could have been larger but I
believe they tried to keep membership limited to within the Italian
province for pratical reasons I can understand.

All in all we have a gentium list of many paradoxes don't you think?

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Licinius Crassus
<g_licinius_crassus@y...> wrote:

>
> Salve omnes
>
> I am wondering, now that the gens Pontia has been mentioned, if

that gens is empty due to a latent rejection of that name for its
Christian association, or is it simply 'unpopular' for another
reason?

>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> G. Licinius Crassus
>
>
>
> "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@y...> wrote:
> M. Lucretius Agricola Sexto Pilato Barbato Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I am by no means an expert, but it is my opinion that "Pilatus"

would

> be approprate as a cognomen, not as a nomen. Of course there is the
> person mentioned in the christian bible, "Pontius Pilate" in

English,

> I suppose "Pontius Pilatus" in Latin. In this case the praenomen

is lost.

>
> I just looked at the Album Gentium and our gens Pontia is now

empty.

>
>
>
> It is my opinion, and JUST my opinion, that this is a good time for
> citizens to take a look at their names. The album civium is greatly
> reduced, a number of gentes are now empty, even gentes with

honorable

> and historical names. Now is the chance, in my opinion, for us to
> honor some of the families that actually built Rome. The first step
> would be to take their names, thoughtfully and deliberately,
> especially putting aside any vanity. The next step would be to use

the

> memory of those who held these names in the past as a spur and a

guide

> to greater activity and service within this Republic.
>
>
> We now have five citizens in gens Lucretia, all former Gladii. I

still

> hope that the remaining Gladii will join us. I would also welcome

any

> citizen with a problematic or unhistorical nomen into the gens, of
> course, but citizens who keep the Religio, who honor Apollo, who

have

> an interest in Hellenism as well as Romanitas and who strive to

offer

> service to the Republic, patrician or plebian, would be

particularly

> welcome.
>
> Optime valete.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Bird" <p.bird@n...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete, omnes!
> >
> > I have been following this long discussion on names very closely,
> > particularly since the nomen that I took � Pilatus � does not

fall

> within
> > the IUS guideline. I therefore wondered whether I would have to
> change it.
> > However, `pilatus' is given as both adjective and past

participle in

> L&S. Of
> > course, its obvious meaning is `armed with javelins', but its

past

> > participle turns out to be more interesting than I thought:

`pilo'

> has two
> > different meanings (both 1st conjugation): [1] to ram down or

thrust

> home
> > (which was what I thought it meant) and[2] to grow hairy! In the

second

> > sense it would perhaps sit nicely with my cognomen `Barbatus' ...
> There is
> > apparently another rare meaning, though not pre-Augustan, of

plundering.

> >
> > With all this in mind, could some kind onomastic expert give me

some

> advice
> > on whether a name change is necessary or not?
> >
> > Gratias vobis ago.
> >
> > Sextus Pilatus Barbatus.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-

Roma@yahoogroups.com]

> On Behalf
> > Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> > Sent: 27 October 2005 21:32
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
> >
> >
> >
> > > Salve, M. Lucreti Agricola, et salvete, omnes!
> > >
> > > Let me first congratulate you, M. Lucreti, on your new

nomen!

> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > I am sure that "Gladius" as a nomen is unhistorical. Once or

twice in

> > > recent discussions I have seen it alluded to, and not as an

example to

> > > follow. It is also not listed on the "names" page. Purely as a

guess

> > > therefore I would speculate that there will be no new Gladii

except by

> > > birth or adoption.
> > >
> > > ATS: Morphologically, �gladius� falls within the

guidelines

> set in
> > the
> > > (hopefully) preliminary edictum just published, but it is

indeed a

> noun,
> > not
> > > an adjective as nomina must be. Like Lanius, it is a marginal

case,

> > however,
> > > for it is just on the barest fringe of possibility that an
> adjective of
> > > identical form could be created from either of these names�but

no such

> > > adjective is in my unabridged Latin dictionaries, the better

and more

> > recent
> > > of which extends well into the common era.
> > >
> > > It must be said, however, that there are gentes which have

nomina

> > which
> > > clearly do not fall within even this very preliminary

guideline,

> some for
> > > similar reasons, i.e., that the nomen is a noun, not an

adjective, and

> > some
> > > for other reasons. I would hesitate to list these without

censorial

> > > permission lest we encounter more problems relating to the
> sensitivity of
> > such
> > > issues, but perhaps those interested may contact the censores
> directly and
> > > discuss the matter with them.
> > >
> > > Personally I had always felt a little uneasy about it, but I

was very

> > > happy to be associated with Cyrene. I am very happy indeed

that she

> > > has joined me in this change.
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps I should mention that there are very nice, historical

names

> > > still unused. It is an interesting exercise to google a nomen

plus the

> > > word "denarius" and see if any hits come up for coins minted

by a

> > > member of the gens in question.
> > >
> > >
> > > Optime Vale
> > >
> > > M. Lucretius Agricola
> > >
> > > Vale, et valete,
> > >
> > > A. Tullia Scholastica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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Salvete Omnes,

Murena Gladiatoria Quarters Results

Reminder of the registered Gladiatores for the Ludi :

Order Name Player Type
#1 Agathyrsus Iulia Caesaris Cytheris Aege Thraex
#2 Superstes L. Vittelius Trarius Secutor
#3 Spartacus Gn Cornelius Lentulus Thraex
Oenomaeus (idem) Murmillo
#4 Marius Laelia Laeta Retiarius
Septimus (idem) Dimachaeus

Results:

Combat #1: Agathyrsus vs Superstes. Superstes wins.
Spectators granted life to Agathyrsus.

Combat #2: Spartacus vs Marius. Spartacus wins.
Spectators granted life to Marius.

Combat #3: Oenomaeus vs Septimus. Septimus wins.
Spectators granted life to Oenomaeus.

Additional combat to provide even-numbered combats in
semi-finals (between the two first losers):

Combat #4: Agathyrsus vs Marius. Agathyrsus wins.
Eheu ! Spectators chose death for Marius.

Valete,
Lucius Rutilius Minervalis

OSD G. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IV Kalendas Novembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"When Manlius heard the fate of his colleague, he honoured his
glorious death with tears no less than with the due meed of praise.
Meantime the battle proceeded, and in some quarters the weight of
numbers was giving the advantage to the Latins. For some time Manlius
was in doubt whether the moment had not come for calling up the
triarii, but judging it better for them to be kept fresh till the
final crisis of the battle, he gave orders for the accensi at the
extreme rear to advance to the front. When they came up, the Latins,
taking them for the opposing triarii, instantly called up their own.
In the desperate struggle they had tired themselves out and broken or
blunted their spears, but as they were still driving the enemy back by
main force, they imagined that the battle was decided and that they
had reached their last line. Then it was that the consul said to his
triarii: "Rise up now, fresh and vigorous against a wearied foe; think
of your country and your parents and wives and children; think of your
consul lying there dead that ye might win the victory!" They rose up
fresh and resplendent in their armour, as though a new army had
suddenly sprung up, and after letting the antepilani retire through
them they raised their battle-shout. The front ranks of the Latins
were thrown into disorder, the Romans thrust their spears into their
faces, and in this way killed the main support of their army. They
went on without being touched through the remaining companies as
though through a crowd of unarmed men, and they marked their advance
with such a slaughter that they left hardly a fourth part of the
enemy. The Samnites, too, who were drawn up close to the lowest spurs
of the mountain, were threatening the Latins on their flank, and so
adding to their demoralisation.

The chief credit for that successful battle was given by all, Romans
and allies alike, to the two consuls-one of whom had diverted on to
himself alone all the dangers that threatened from the gods supernal
and the gods infernal, whilst the other had shown such consummate
generalship in the battle itself that the Roman and Latin historians
who have left an account of it, are quite agreed that whichever side
had had T. Manlius as their commander must have won the victory. After
their flight the Latins took refuge in Menturnae. Their camp was
captured after the battle, and many were killed there, mostly
Campanians. The body of Decius was not found that day, as night
overtook those who were searching for it, the next day it was
discovered, buried beneath a heap of javelins and with an immense
number of the enemy lying round it. His obsequies were conducted by
his colleague in a manner befitting that glorious death. I ought to
add here that a consul or Dictator or praetor, when he devotes the
legions of the enemy, need not necessarily devote himself but may
select any one he chooses out of a legion that has been regularly
enrolled. If the man who has been so devoted is killed, all is
considered to have been duly performed. If he is not killed, an image
of the man, seven feet high at least, must be buried in the earth, and
a victim slain as an expiatory sacrifice; on the spot, where such an
image has been buried, no Roman magistrate must ever set his foot. If,
as in the case of Decius, the commander devotes himself but survives
the battle, he can no longer discharge any religious function, either
on his own account or on behalf of the State. He has the right to
devote his arms, either by offering a sacrifice or otherwise, to
Vulcan or to any other deity. The spear on which the consul stands,
when repeating the formula of devotion, must not pass into the enemy's
hands; should this happen a suovetaurilia must be offered as a
propitiation to Mars." - Livy, History of Rome 8.10


Today is the second day of the festival of Isis, the Isia. The second
day is called the Zetesis and Heuresis. Professional singers,
musicians, and dancers, mostly female, performed at the temples during
the Isia.


Today was the Iroquois Feast of The Dead. The tribe called themselves
the "Haudenosaunee" meaning "people of the long house." The origin of
their common name ("Iroquois") is a mystery, although two schools of
thought predominate: either the Algonquin word "Iroqu" (Irinakhoiw),
which means "rattlesnake," was combined by the French with the suffix
"ois" to form the name "Iroquois" as an insult, meaning "Black Snakes"
or as stated by Bruce E. Johansen in his masterful study "Forgotten
Founders":

"Another matter that surprised many contemporary observers was the
Iroquois' sophisticated use of oratory. Their excellence with the
spoken word, among other attributes, often caused Colden and others to
compare the Iroquois to the Romans and Greeks. The French use of the
term Iroquois to describe the confederacy was itself related to this
oral tradition; it came from the practice of ending their orations
with the two words hiro and kone. The first meant "I say" or "I have
said" and the second was an exclamation of joy or sorrow according to
the circumstances of the speech. The two words, joined and made
subject to French pronunciation, became Iroquois. The English were
often exposed to the Iroquois' oratorical skills at eighteenth-century
treaty councils." - Bruce E. Johansen, "Forgotten Founders", Chapter 3
"Our Indians have Outdone The Romans", p. 41

Their home was the upstate New York area from Niagara Falls to the
Adirondacks but the "Iroquois League of Nations" once ruled an empire
that extended from the Chesapeake to the junction of the Ohio and
Mississippi rivers. The League's decision to side with the British
during the Revolutionary War was disastrous. Subsequent treaties
surrendered most of their land to white settlers, and their people
retreated to their northern lands across the border to Canada.

Valete bene!

Cato





SOURCES

Livy (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Liv2His.html),
Iroquois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois) and
(http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/FF.html)

A. Apollonius Sex. Pontio omnibusque sal.

Salve Pilate! (For of course we must follow Roman
convention and address you by your first cognomen
unless there is some particular reason not to.)

> Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova
> Roma belong to the gens
> Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others
> could get in touch?

Gentes no longer have patresfamilias or
matresfamilias: this was an unhistorical peculiarity
of the early years of our republic which has now been
regularized. You are your own paterfamilias. And in
fact, looking at the album gentium, I see that you are
also the only member of gens Pontia who is still a
citizen. There were others once, and one of them
apparently made a web-page -

http://www.geocities.com/pontiusfalco/

- but they seem now to have dropped off the map and
failed to declare themselves at the census. But
usually when there's an active citizen in a gens it's
not long before new members appear.





___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Salve Sexte Ponti,

> Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova Roma belong to the gens
> Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others could get in touch?

There are six, but none of the others answered the census. So you are
effectively alone.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salve, Gn Equiti Marine

Thank you for your reply. Let's hope I won't be alone for long in this gens!

S Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Sent: 29 October 2005 15:09
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword



Salve Sexte Ponti,

> Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova Roma belong to the gens
> Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others could get in touch?

There are six, but none of the others answered the census. So you are
effectively alone.

Vale,

-- Marinus



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, A Apolloni Corde, salvete omnes!

Many thanks again - everyone - for all the suggestions. So I am the only
Pontius! I wonder if the name is cognate with the "pons" root for bridge?
"Pilatus" I shall continue to enjoy, not merely because of my fascination
with Pontius Pilate and the different traditions concerning him, but also
because of the differing meanings of the past participle. Whether I am
"thrust firmly", "sprouting hairs" or even "plucking out hairs or feathers",
it all makes for interesting connotations!

What really intrigues me is this: why did Pontius Pilate discuss the
philosophy of truth with Jesus, an apparent felon due to be executed? Why
was he so unwilling - a Roman who was used to seeing people cruelly scourged
and killed - to condemn Jesus? I once wrote a play based around this, and it
was used as an Easter performance regularly at the school I teach in. If
anyone would like to read it and muse upon its theme, I will send it.

My best wishes.

Valete optime, omnes.

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of A. Apollonius Cordus
Sent: 29 October 2005 14:31
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword



A. Apollonius Sex. Pontio omnibusque sal.

Salve Pilate! (For of course we must follow Roman
convention and address you by your first cognomen
unless there is some particular reason not to.)

> Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova
> Roma belong to the gens
> Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others
> could get in touch?

Gentes no longer have patresfamilias or
matresfamilias: this was an unhistorical peculiarity
of the early years of our republic which has now been
regularized. You are your own paterfamilias. And in
fact, looking at the album gentium, I see that you are
also the only member of gens Pontia who is still a
citizen. There were others once, and one of them
apparently made a web-page -

http://www.geocities.com/pontiusfalco/

- but they seem now to have dropped off the map and
failed to declare themselves at the census. But
usually when there's an active citizen in a gens it's
not long before new members appear.





___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with
voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com



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YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



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_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Sexte Ponti Pilate et omnes,

Congratulations on your family name! It is the most famous even to
those who no nothing of Rome.

I went back to one of my postings in the BA 2 years ago and it may
be helpful in answering your question. First I asked that question
to a church expert and when Pilate asked Jesus what is truth Jesus
was trying in a indirect way to say, "I am the truth!" meaning what
he did and said was the be and and end all. Pilate didn't quite get
the drift and quite frankly neither did I until recently. Here is
the post which is hypothetical but sensible I hope.

Salve omnes,

I was reading books and articles on Pontius Pilate and most agree
that his actions and wavering over Jesus were due to his appointment
as governor by Sejanus:

Technically speaking Pilate should have released Jesus under Roman
law. It should be remembered that Pilate had been appointed by
Sejanus who tried to usurpe the Emperorship of Rome from Tiberius
while he was living in Capri. Tiberius was a friend of the Jewish
people; Sejanus was quite anti-Jewish. On several occasions Pilate
had offended the Jews in his actions and policies by overreacting to
a minor skirmish and exacting a heavy vengence in lives lost,
placing Roman standards in the Jewish Temple area and expropriating
funds from the temple treasury to build an aqueduct into the city.
When Sejanus was overthrown and killed with all his associates
things changed rapidly.The Jewish authorities sent some delegates to
complain to Rome about Pilate so by then Pilate was on thin ice and
could not afford another screw up -and especially a screw up who had
been appointed by the traitor Sejanus.

A few hundred years later Clovis who had been converted to
Christianity bellowed, " Had I been Pilate I would have let Jesus go
and slaughtered anyone who stood in the way of his release!" Had
Pilate been around at that point he would have quietly pulled Clovis
aside, poured him a strong drink and said that he must learn the
political world and explain to him that it was a good decision to
gracefully worm out of an almost impossible situation.

Respectfully,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Bird" <p.bird@n...> wrote:
>
> Salve, A Apolloni Corde, salvete omnes!
>
> Many thanks again - everyone - for all the suggestions. So I am
the only
> Pontius! I wonder if the name is cognate with the "pons" root for
bridge?
> "Pilatus" I shall continue to enjoy, not merely because of my
fascination
> with Pontius Pilate and the different traditions concerning him,
but also
> because of the differing meanings of the past participle. Whether
I am
> "thrust firmly", "sprouting hairs" or even "plucking out hairs or
feathers",
> it all makes for interesting connotations!
>
> What really intrigues me is this: why did Pontius Pilate discuss
the
> philosophy of truth with Jesus, an apparent felon due to be
executed? Why
> was he so unwilling - a Roman who was used to seeing people
cruelly scourged
> and killed - to condemn Jesus? I once wrote a play based around
this, and it
> was used as an Easter performance regularly at the school I teach
in. If
> anyone would like to read it and muse upon its theme, I will send
it.
>
> My best wishes.
>
> Valete optime, omnes.
>
> Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
> Of A. Apollonius Cordus
> Sent: 29 October 2005 14:31
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
>
>
>
> A. Apollonius Sex. Pontio omnibusque sal.
>
> Salve Pilate! (For of course we must follow Roman
> convention and address you by your first cognomen
> unless there is some particular reason not to.)
>
> > Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova
> > Roma belong to the gens
> > Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others
> > could get in touch?
>
> Gentes no longer have patresfamilias or
> matresfamilias: this was an unhistorical peculiarity
> of the early years of our republic which has now been
> regularized. You are your own paterfamilias. And in
> fact, looking at the album gentium, I see that you are
> also the only member of gens Pontia who is still a
> citizen. There were others once, and one of them
> apparently made a web-page -
>
> http://www.geocities.com/pontiusfalco/
>
> - but they seem now to have dropped off the map and
> failed to declare themselves at the census. But
> usually when there's an active citizen in a gens it's
> not long before new members appear.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide
with
> voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> * Visit your group "Nova-Roma
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma> " on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

G. Equitius Cato S. Pontio Pilato Barbato S.P.D.

Salve, Pontius Barbatus.

You wrote:

"[W]hy did Pontius Pilate discuss the philosophy of truth with Jesus,
an apparent felon due to be executed? Why was he so unwilling - a
Roman who was used to seeing people cruelly scourged and killed - to
condemn Jesus?"


To answer the first, it may have been simply a literary device to
enable Jesus once again to declare both His innocence of the charges
made by the Jewish authorities (that He was fomenting rebellion
against the Romans):

"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were
of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not
be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this
realm.'" - Gospel According to St. John 18:36

AND to give Jesus an opportunity to re-establish His position as the
Bearer of the Gospel:

"Jesus answered, 'You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have
been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the
truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.'" - ibid. 37


To answer the second, a number of variables should be considered.
Pilate's relationships in Rome, as Seutonius Paulinus has pointed out,
were relatively turbulent; he was actually warned against continuing
to use the level of violence against the Jews that he had previously
been using. In the text known as the "Embassy to Gaius", Philo of
Alexandria includes a letter by the Jewish prince Herod Agrippa to the
emperor Caligula, in which the latter's attempt to have his statue
erected in the Temple at Jerusalem is compared to Pilate's attempt to
have shields with pagan inscriptions placed in his Jerusalem palace.
According to the author of this letter, Pilate was corrected by the
emperor Tiberius, whose behavior is presented as exemplary ("Embassy
to Gaius" 299-305).

Religion and politics are co-mingled in first century Palestine: the
chief priests and religious authorities in Jerusalem were, according
to Josephus, also the political leaders (Josephus, "Antiquities"
20.251) Pilate, as governor, has the power to appoint the High
Priest, and in fact kept the High Priest's vestments under guard in
the Roman palace, allowing them to be used only when necessary, and
forcing the Jewish authorities to have to ask for them.

Pilate's apparent reluctance to condemn Jesus forces the political
hand of the Jewish authorities. In a masterful stroke, Pilate "polls"
the gathered crowd, seeing how much support Jesus has ("shall I
crucify your king?"); in return, he gets an astonishing response: the
crowd acknowledges that they "have no king but Caesar." (!) Not only
can he thus keep the Jewish religious and political authorities happy
(by getting rid of Jesus), but he's got a crowd of generally restless
Jews shouting out their loyalty to Rome --- in the Jewish capital city
at the height of the most important festival of the Jewish year. A
pretty well-played hand.

Theologically-speaking, of course, Christians might also say that
Pilate was simply confronted by Jesus' innocence; the fact that He is
God in human flesh could not help but have some kind of subconscious
effect upon Pilate --- much in the same way that the temple guards who
came to the Garden of Gethsemane to arrest Jesus "fell back" when He
answered their demand to see Jesus of Nazareth with the words "I am
He." His very words had power.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@y...>
wrote:

>

Salve Cato!

in return, he gets an astonishing response: the
crowd acknowledges that they "have no king but Caesar." (!)

LOL, in the Rock Opera, "Jesus Christ Superstar" I roared laughing at
Pilate's (Barry Denon) fictionalized response to that:

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, something new ? Repect for Caesar ? Till
now that has been noticeably lacking!

Regards,

QSP

Salvete, Quirites; salve, Sabine amice!


It can be happened - just don't worry about, amice!
The other answers I have received all were posted to
me earlier than your misguided message.

So, this is my judgement:

1§ All the answers sent to me earlier than the
solution is appeared in the ML shall be accepted.

2§ Titus Iulius Sabinus' answer to the 3rd question
shall not be accepted, but his previous and
forthcoming answers all will be participate in the
contest.

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus
SCRIBA LUDORUM
Organizer of The Contest


--- Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...> ha
scritto:


---------------------------------
SALVETE !

Nice ! I "spoiled" the game. Amici, Lentule, my
excuses.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, iulius sabinus
<iulius_sabinus@y...> wrote:

>
> SALVE AMICE !
>
> Sulla had four wives.
>
> first - Julia ( IIia in the Plutarch texts )
> second - Aelia.
> third - Caecilia Metella Dalmatica.
> fourth - Valeria Mesal(l)a.
>
> VALE BENE,
> IVL SABINVS
>

VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it

Even granted that 'alone' no doubt included slaves, bodyguards and other
'non-people', it's unlikely that anybody knew what passed between them. What is
likely though is that it places the time to when Pilatus was under recall
waiting for the weather to clear to face an angry Tiberius, so watching his
step. In the event, he timed it toarrive as Tirberius died.
Caesariensis

> G. Equitius Cato S. Pontio Pilato Barbato S.P.D.
>
> Salve, Pontius Barbatus.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "[W]hy did Pontius Pilate discuss the philosophy of truth with Jesus,
> an apparent felon due to be executed? Why was he so unwilling - a
> Roman who was used to seeing people cruelly scourged and killed - to
> condemn Jesus?"
>
>
> To answer the first, it may have been simply a literary device to
> enable Jesus once again to declare both His innocence of the charges
> made by the Jewish authorities (that He was fomenting rebellion
> against the Romans):
>
> "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were
> of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not
> be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this
> realm.'" - Gospel According to St. John 18:36
>

"God created man and man created God. So is it in the world. Men make
gods and they worship their creations. If would be fitting for the gods to
worship men" - Gospel of Thomas, Logion 85:1-4



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SOLUTION #3 and TEMPORARY CLASSIFICATION for the
Historical Contest of the Ludi Victoriae Sullanae

CN CORNELIUS LENTULUS QUIRITIBUS SPD:
Avete, in the name of Aed. Cur. L. Iulius Sulla!


Here are the correct answer and a temporary
classification (hereinafter) for the 3rd question of
our Certamen:


I. THE SOLUTION #3


QUAESTIO N°3 - How many wives did have Sulla all
through his life? What were their names?

RESPONSUM N°3 - It seems to be a difficult question,
even just looking the very different answers I have
received. Some sources in the Internet suggest that
Sulla had 4 wives but more adequate sources e.g.
Plutarch sais L. Sulla Felix had 5 wives:

Julia Caesaris,
Aelia Tuberonis,
Cloelia,
Caecilia Metella Dalmatica,
Valeria Messala.

It's interesting to read Plutarch writes about his
marriages:

"At his return to Rome, he was chosen Consul with
Quintus Pompeius, in the fiftieth year of his age, and
made a most distinguished marriage with Caecilia,
daughter of Metellus, the chief priest. The common
people made a variety of verses in ridicule of the
marriage, and many of the nobility also were disgusted
at it, esteeming him, as Livy writes, unworthy of this
connection, whom before they thought worthy of a
consulship. This was not his only wife, for first, in
his younger days, he was married to Iulia, by whom he
had a daughter; after her to Aelia; and thirdly to
Cloelia, whom he dismissed as barren, but honorably,
and with professions of respect, adding, moreover,
presents. But the match between him and Metella,
falling out a few days after, occasioned suspicions
that he had complained of Cloelia without due cause.
To Metella he always showed great deference, so much
so that the people, when anxious for the recall of the
exiles of Marius's party, upon his refusal, entreated
the intercession of Metella. And the Athenians, it is
thought, had harder measure, at the capture of their
town, because they used insulting language to Metella
in their jests from the walls during the siege. But of
this hereafter..."
(...)
"...Some few months after, at a show of gladiators,
when men and women sat promiscuously in the theater,
no distinct places being as yet appointed, there sat
down by Sylla a beautiful woman of high birth, by name
Valeria, daughter of Messala, and sister to Hortensius
the orator. Now it happened that she had been lately
divorced from her husband. Passing along behind Sylla,
she leaned on him with her hand, and plucking a bit of
wool from his garment, so proceeded to her seat. And
on Sylla looking up and wondering what it meant, "What
harm, mighty Sir," said she, "if I also was desirous
to partake a little in your felicity?" It appeared at
once that Sylla was not displeased, but even tickled
in his fancy, for he sent out to inquire her name, her
birth, and past life. From this time there passed
between them many side glances, each continually
turning round to look at the other, and frequently
interchanging smiles. In the end, overtures were made,
and a marriage concluded on. All which was innocent,
perhaps, on the lady's side, but, though she had been
never so modest and virtuous, it was scarcely a
temperate and worthy occasion of marriage on the part
of Sylla, to take fire, as a boy might, at a face and
a bold look, incentives not seldom to the most
disorderly and shameless passions. Notwithstanding
this marriage, he kept company with actresses,
musicians, and dancers, drinking with them on couches
night and day."



II. TEMPORARY CLASSIFICATION
(The rules of Certamen Historicum:
http://www.cohorssullana.grafosystem.ro/rules.htm)

We can see a little realignment in the order of
contestants. Publius Memmius has forged away to the
first place! Bravo, Tribune! But Censor Marinus dogs
his footsteps: he also has a good chance to win, as
well as Propraetor Sabinus. There is a new contestant
Aurelia Procula, welcome! If the "guys" will make
mistakes, she also will have chances: just go on with
answering!! Sexte Apolloni, don't leave the contest:
you can achieve a much more better place!

1. P. Memmius Albucius 6 pts

2. Cn. Equitius Marinus 5 pts

3. T. Iulius Sabinus 4 pts

4. Livia Aurelia Procula 1pt

5. Sex. Apollonius Scipio 0 pt


Come on, let's go, Nova Romans! If you start now with
answering questions you can win still: the racing
starts just now!!!



VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it

YOU CAN START sending answers anytime!!
You can begin NOW!!!
PARTICIPATE!

CN CORNELIVS LENTVLVS QVIRITIBVS SALVTEM DICIT:
Avete, in the name of Aed. Curulis L. Iulius Sulla!

This is a Historical Contest of the Ludi Victoriae
Sullanae, not only for historians but also for
everyone who loves Roman history! It's not important
if you haven't done yesterday: you can begin now!


And here follows the 4th question for our Certamen
Historicum:


QUAESTIO N°4 - What was Sulla's function and duty in
the African camp of C. Marius in 107 B.C.?


We are waiting for your answers, and remember that you
have just to write at the following email:

cnaeus_cornelius@...

Here are the rules of Certamen Historicum:

http://www.cohorssullana.grafosystem.ro/rules.htm



VALETE QVAM OPTIME!
Happy Ludi Victoriae Sullanae!


Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Scriba Ludorum - Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Accensus Consulis
Propraetor Pannoniae






___________________________________
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
http://mail.yahoo.it

Salvete Omnes,

Gladiatoria Semi Finals

Reminder of the registered Gladiatores for the Ludi, winners of
Quarters Finals :

Order Name Player Type
#1 Agathyrsus Iulia Caesaris Cytheris Aege Thraex
#2 Superstes L. Vittelius Trarius Secutor
#3 Spartacus Gn Cornelius Lentulus Thraex
#4 Septimus Laelia Laeta Dimachaeus


Combat #1: Superstes vs Spartacus. Superstes wins.
Spectators granted life to Spartacus.

Combat #2: Septimus vs Agathyrsus. Septimus wins.
Spectators granted life to Agathyrsus.

Valete,

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Aedilician Quaestor

Salve Romans

I am currently reading John Maddox Roberts book The Temple of the Muses , Book IV in his SPQR series. In a passage of the book he has one of the characters allude to the fact that Romans and for that matter most if not all people in the ancient world read a written work out loud and not silently. Is this simply a literary device or their some evidence of this.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve, Ti. Galeri Pauline, et salvete, omnes!
>
> Salve Romans
>
> I am currently reading John Maddox Roberts book The Temple of the Muses , Book
> IV in his SPQR series. In a passage of the book he has one of the characters
> allude to the fact that Romans and for that matter most if not all people in
> the ancient world read a written work out loud and not silently. Is this
> simply a literary device or their some evidence of this.
>
> ATS: This seems to be common knowledge among classicists; it¹s what I
> was taught. Silent reading apparently appeared much later. Sorry I can¹t
> provide a reference...
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Vale,
>
>

A. Tullia Scholastica

>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Salve, collega Barbate, et salvete, omnes!
>
> Salve, A Apolloni Corde, salvete omnes!
>
> Many thanks again - everyone - for all the suggestions. So I am the only
> Pontius! I wonder if the name is cognate with the "pons" root for bridge?
>
> ATS: It may well be, but it seems closer to ŒPontus¹ and ŒPonticus,¹
> though ŒPontius¹ is listed in the OLD (as you may have seen) as a Samnite
> gens, later a Roman one; it lists a C. Pontius as the leader of the Samnites
> at the battle of Caudine Forks. Pontiae and Pontia are also listed as names of
> an island or island group in the Tuscan Sea.
>
> As others have noted, sometimes the gentes become empty when all members
> fail to respond to the census. In time, others may join; one just joined
> Auitus¹ gens, so he is no longer alone.
>
> "Pilatus" I shall continue to enjoy, not merely because of my fascination
> with Pontius Pilate and the different traditions concerning him, but also
> because of the differing meanings of the past participle. Whether I am
> "thrust firmly", "sprouting hairs" or even "plucking out hairs or feathers",
> it all makes for interesting connotations!
>
> ATS: It certainly offers a wealth of possibilities, some quite opposite!
>
> What really intrigues me is this: why did Pontius Pilate discuss the
> philosophy of truth with Jesus, an apparent felon due to be executed? Why
> was he so unwilling - a Roman who was used to seeing people cruelly scourged
> and killed - to condemn Jesus? I once wrote a play based around this, and it
> was used as an Easter performance regularly at the school I teach in. If
> anyone would like to read it and muse upon its theme, I will send it.
>
> My best wishes.
>
> Valete optime, omnes.
>
> Et tu!
>
> Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus
>
>

A. Tullia Scholastica

>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of A. Apollonius Cordus
> Sent: 29 October 2005 14:31
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: A citizen puts down the sword
>
>
>
> A. Apollonius Sex. Pontio omnibusque sal.
>
> Salve Pilate! (For of course we must follow Roman
> convention and address you by your first cognomen
> unless there is some particular reason not to.)
>
>> > Now what I need to know is how many others in Nova
>> > Roma belong to the gens
>> > Pontia. Who is the paterfamilias? Perhaps others
>> > could get in touch?
>
> Gentes no longer have patresfamilias or
> matresfamilias: this was an unhistorical peculiarity
> of the early years of our republic which has now been
> regularized. You are your own paterfamilias. And in
> fact, looking at the album gentium, I see that you are
> also the only member of gens Pontia who is still a
> citizen. There were others once, and one of them
> apparently made a web-page -
>
> http://www.geocities.com/pontiusfalco/
>
> - but they seem now to have dropped off the map and
> failed to declare themselves at the census. But
> usually when there's an active citizen in a gens it's
> not long before new members appear.
>
>
>

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M. Lucretius Agricola A. Tulliae Scholasticae S.P.D.

St. Augustine, "Confessions" Book 6 Chapter 3. Augustine describes the
silent reading of St. Ambrose, which was remarkable at that time.

Augustine died about 430 of the common era, Ambrose about 397.

I think this is pretty much what we base our understanding upon.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@l...> wrote:

>
> > Salve, Ti. Galeri Pauline, et salvete, omnes!
> >
> > Salve Romans
> >
> > I am currently reading John Maddox Roberts book The Temple of the

Muses , Book

> > IV in his SPQR series. In a passage of the book he has one of the

characters

> > allude to the fact that Romans and for that matter most if not all

people in

> > the ancient world read a written work out loud and not silently.

Is this

> > simply a literary device or their some evidence of this.
> >
> > ATS: This seems to be common knowledge among classicists;

it¹s what I

> > was taught. Silent reading apparently appeared much later. Sorry

I can¹t

> > provide a reference...
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> >
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>