> A. Tullia Scholastica M. Lucretio Agricolae quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> omnibus S.P.D.
>
>
> M Lucretius Agricola Anniae Minuciae-Tiberiae Audenti Semproniae S.P.D.
>
> I agree that the advantages of such a system would be manifold.
>
> I wonder if we should use publicans? Private tax collecting agents
> were used in antiquity, I believe. Safeguards would have to be put in
> place, of course, but that is true whatever is done.
>
> ATS: Such a move may be in progress, and not because of this discussion.
>
> Vale, et ualete,
>
>

A. Tullia Scholastica

>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Annia Minucia-Tiberia Audens
> Sempronia" <annia@c...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Salve,
>> >
>> > It's a shame you have been wronged. Perhaps if Nova Roma had an
>> > online store that could accept credit cards or paypal payments, it'd
>> > make the process of a refund easier. It would also have documentation
>> > of who ordered what(invoices) available in case a problem arises.
>> > It'll definitely make things more efficient and professional. It
>> > wouldn't be that hard to put one up, I could make a mock-up of one if
>> > anyone wishes.
>> >
>> >
>> > Vale,
>> > Annia Minucia-Tiberia Audens Sempronia
>> >
>> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Aulus Sempronius Regulus
>> > <a_sempronius_regulus@y...> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Salve,
>>> > > His father, as he claimed died last Jan., and yet, end
>>> > > of last March he offered to sell me flags. At end of
>>> > > April/beginning of May, he apologized for the delay
>>> > > and said the flags were in the mail. He also said
>>> > > there were NR t-shirts in my size if I was interested.
>>> > > I said I was. Taxes could also be sent to the same PO.
>>> > > So, payment for two separate items, two separate
>>> > > checks, were sent last May. In June, he emailed
>>> > > several in NR he refused to send me the merchandise
>>> > > and admitted he held the checks. As of November,
>>> > > neither merchandise nor checks have been returned.
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale,
>>> > > A.S.R.
>>> > >
>> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve

"just another thread of Islam-bashing"

How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large ( not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim nations have very little or no interest in assimilating. Second and third generation British and French "citizens" are either burning down parts of France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short time ago.

You know what would help bring about a real movement toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to announce that are going to support the building of churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of Israel would be a given.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Licinius Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was Pilate)


Salve omnes,

I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT necesarily
off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another thread of
Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this discussion reaches that
point, it's time to either put it to bed or move it to another forum.

On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who actually reside in
Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with current events from
first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU were Emperor,
would you want your reports from the provinces to come from
scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from someone who had actually
BEEN there to see what is happening?

Valete,

G Licinius Crassus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer" <sbeer@n...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
> Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this list serves as our "Forum
> Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and visitors meet and talk
about
> everything. I am quite sure that on the original forum there were folks
> discussing politics, scandals, the best address to buy cloth or
wine, the
> latest games or races, their next neighbour´s broken leg or marriage
> problems - in short everything that is discussed everywhere when
people meet
>
> This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is off topic.
> (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what goes on where - some
might
> call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> Valete optime!
> Lucia Flavia Lectrix
>
> -------Originalmeldung-------
>
> Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was Pilate)
>
> Salvete,
>
> this is an off-topic talk; however I am more than willing to explain
> privately what is
> going on in Paris. I live there.
>
> Valete,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> Propraetor Galliae
>
> --- raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
>
> > Too much tolerance can be deadly. Just look at the
> > problems in Germany,the American
> > southwest,France,SPAIN,etc.For fear of a facist label
> > the WEST dones nil.
> > --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mjk@d...>
> > wrote:
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > These riots would be nothing new to the Romans;
> > check out about riots
> > > in Roman Alexandria. I'm sure they found that whole
> > middle east and its
> > > provincials a real pest hole at times.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > S P Q R
> >
> > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> >
> > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> > http://farechase.yahoo.com<http://farechase.yahoo.com/>
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com<http://farechase.yahoo.com/>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Fall of the roman empire
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






SPONSORED LINKS Fall of the roman empire<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w1=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&c=1&s=30&.sig=_o5rQWqUgwZuR8ossa62Yg>


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------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Exactly.Lets look at the past. The fall of
Jerusalem.The fall of Constantinople.The fall of
Alexandria where the remnants of the libary were used
for fuel.
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<senseiphil@...> wrote:

> Salve Venator,
>
> Did you miss my point that badly? Never mind my

friend. "Those who cannot remember the past are
condemned to repeat it." Jorge Santayana 1863-1952

>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stefn Ullarsson
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 1:43 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] German skill - Religio Sep,

was Re: imperial power

>
>
> Ave M Cassius:
>
> On 11/8/05, Sensei Phil Perez

<senseiphil@...> wrote:

> > Sprechen Sie Deutch meine freund?
> >
>
> Unfortunately, my command of the German I learned

in high school is

> limited to just enough to get a beer, find the

"rest room," get to the

> nearest police station and so forth.
>
> So I would say, "eine bischen."
>
> I am, though, one of the best Heathen poets

writing in modern American English.

>
> I also, write a poem to the Roman spirit from time

to time.

>
> Ad libertas per aspira - Venator
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an

email to:

> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 -

Release Date: 11/8/2005

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

>

S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

No ONE has said anything bad about Islam.How can it be
bashing? Its more like rallying to defend a faith that
does not want your aid unless you are one of them
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <spqr753@...> wrote:

> Salve
>
> "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
>
> How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (

not all) percent of imm

> igrants from Arab or Muslim nations have very little

or no interest in assi

> milating. Second and third generation British and

French "citizens" are eit

> her burning down parts of France as we speak or

bombed Great Britain a shor

> t time ago.
>
> You know what would help bring about a real movement

toward peace on earth

> would be for the Saudis to announce that are going

to support the building

> of churches and synagogues next to every mosque in

Saudi Arabia and that ev

> ery person who visits SA is FREE to openly practice

their religion. Saudi r

> ecognition of Israel would be a given.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gaius Licinius

Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>

> To:

Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was

Pilate)

>
>
> Salve omnes,
>
> I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT

necesarily

> off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another

thread of

> Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this

discussion reaches that

> point, it's time to either put it to bed or move

it to another forum.

>
> On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who

actually reside in

> Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with

current events from

> first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU

were Emperor,

> would you want your reports from the provinces to

come from

> scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from

someone who had actually

> BEEN there to see what is happening?
>
> Valete,
>
> G Licinius Crassus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"

<sbeer@n...> wrote:

> >
> > Salvete!
> > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this

list serves as our "Foru

> m
> > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and

visitors meet and talk

> about
> > everything. I am quite sure that on the original

forum there were folks

> > discussing politics, scandals, the best address

to buy cloth or

> wine, the
> > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s

broken leg or marriage

> > problems - in short everything that is discussed

everywhere when

> people meet
> >
> > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is

off topic.

> > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what

goes on where - some

> might
> > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > Valete optime!
> > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> >
> > -------Originalmeldung-------
> >
> > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> > An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was Pilate)
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > this is an off-topic talk; however I am more

than willing to explain

> > privately what is

=== Message Truncated ===


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen





__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

Salve, M. Lucretius Agricola -

On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 09:53:23PM -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I note that messages sent to the webmaster via the contacts page come
> back "User unknown" (bouncing off <richmal@...>).

It shouldn't do that any longer. :)


Caius Minucius Scaevola
Magister Aranearius
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Curius Saturninus
<c.curius@a...> wrote (message 38977 ML):

> CAIUS CURIUS SATURNINUS TRIBUNUS PLEBIS QUIRITIBUS SPD,
> As an Tribunus Plebis elected by the people of Nova Roma I declare

the Ludi Plebeii 2758 opened starting from today, November 8th.* (..)


EDICTUM DE INTERCESSIONE
INTERCESSIO EDICT

Ex officio Tribuni Plebis P. Memmii Albucii,

On sight of the Constitution of Nova Roma, specially its article IV
a.7.a related to intercessio ;

On sight of the Constitution of Nova Roma, specially its article IV
a.7.d3 related to the administration of the law by the tribunes of
the plebs,

I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, according the
Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma :

Article 1 : Opposes, by the present edict, my veto to the (edict of)
opening, by Tribune of the Plebs Caius Curius Saturninus, of the Ludi
Plebeii by message n° 38977 sent on Nova Roma main list, this 8th
November 2005 (a.d. VI Idus Nov. MMDCCLVIII a.u.c.) 7:30 pm

Article 2 : This veto is an intercession according to the
Constitution and laws of Nova Roma.

Article 3 : The present intercessio is based on the five following
grounds :

1/ Tribune Curius wrote that « I discussed about this with other
Tribunes ». This is not true, for the first message sent by Hon.
Curius has been sent today 8th November at 05 :44. and begins by «
Now what should we do then? I think we should handle the games and
require an explanation from the Servius Labienus Cicero why he isn't
arranging the games. (..)».

As far as I am concerned, I had not been able to answer this post
since this morning till I have read this evening the message on the
opening of the Ludi. So, telling that the point has been discussed is
not true, not to say more.

An act issued by a magistrate of Nova Roma must not based on false
information. Such an act violates the roman virtues, specially
Veritas, on which are founded our constitution.

Furthermore, Tribune Curius's act violates the article 4.3. of Lex
Arminia which requires an « agreement » between the Tribunes between
themselves or with the Curule Aediles.


2/ Tr. Curius says that « neither the Tribunes or other Plebeian
Aedile Manius Constantinus Serapio have been able to contact Servius
Labienus Cicero ».

At this time, I have never been informed, by « the Tribunes », of
such tries. So either my colleague Curius intends to take a decision
on behalf of the whole tribunate, what he must not, or this sentence,
specially using the collective, is uncorrect.

Furthermore, the message sent this morning to the other tribunes by
Hon. Curius shows that, apparently, Cicero has really *not* been
asked by the tribunes - who ? - to organize the games.

Similarly, an act issued by a magistrate of Nova Roma must not based
on false information. Such an act violates the roman virtues,
specially Veritas, on which are founded our constitution.

Furthermore, Tribune Curius's act violates the article 4.3. of Lex
Arminia which requires an « agreement » between the Tribunes between
themselves or with the Curule Aediles.


3/ Even if Lex Arminia de officiis aedilium plebis says that «
On no way these two Ludi cannot happen. », it says in its
4.1.paragraph that « The Plebeian Aediles are free to make the agenda
of events the Ludi, or *even changing the dates of beggining/ending
or events as the needs they consider relevant.* » [my emphasizing].

No element is brought by Tribune Curius to show if Aediles Cicero and
Serapio have organized themselves to postpone the date of the games,
to let them been organized, as asked by Lex Arminia, firstly by the
Aediles.

Saying that the Ludi *should* [my emph.] take place from November 4th
to 7th (sic, in fact 17 th) denies this first precaution opened by
Lex Arminia.

So, the decision taken by Tribune Curius violates Lex Arminia,
specially its article 4.1., for it did not allow the Aediles Plebis
to use all the possibilities offered and requirements asked to them
by this law.


4/ Furthermore, no element is brought to show that both Aediles
Plebis Serapio and Cicero have asked the Curule Aediles to take these
games in charge, as provided by Lex Arminia, article 4.2., 1st
sentence.

So, the decision taken by Tribune Curius violates Lex Arminia,
specially its article 4.2., for it did not allow the Aediles Plebis
to use all the possibilities offered and requirements asked to them
by this law.

5/ The argument relative to the fact that « this event is
arranged for citizens » does not authorize a Tribune of the Plebs to
violate the law. The most irregular things may be done « for
citizens ». Law precisely exists to avoid such situations.


Issued this day, the 8th November in the first year of the consulate
of Fr. Apulus Caesar and
G. Popillius Laenas

> Salue, M. Lucreti Agricola, et saluete, omnes!
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I note that messages sent to the webmaster via the contacts page come
> back "User unknown" (bouncing off <richmal@...>).
>
> ATS: That¹s because that is the address of our former webmaster, who left
> NR near the end of August.
>
> M. Luctretius Agricola
>
> Vale, et ualete,
>
>

A. Tullia Scholastica

>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Maior Quiritibus spd;

I oppose this terrible intecessio of Tribune Albucius which is
impious in the extreme.

I call upon my fellow tribunes to support Caius Curius Saturninus
and myself in his pious desire to ensure these Ludi honouring
Iuppiter OP are duly commenced!

what vanity what folly to ban these religious events!
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP

> I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, according the
> Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma :
>
> Article 1 : Opposes, by the present edict, my veto to the (edict

of)

> opening, by Tribune of the Plebs Caius Curius Saturninus, of the

Ludi

> Plebeii by message n°

Salve Philippus,

Yes, the joy of getting whacked with a stick is lost on those who haven't been there, eh? Suffice it to say that I'm out of the 'Heavy Fighting' class in the SCA and have moved on to Rapier fighting where I can use my Olympic-style fencing training to better use! Besides, at 42 I'm much more comfortable in the lighter outfits called for in the Rapier regulations.

I completely agree- SCA rules really cramp the style of Roman units as it prevents them from really fixing and closing with the enemy forces. And the heavy armor requirements force Romans to fight in unrealistic get-ups that detract from the spirit and look of the units. That's one reason why I am looking into the Dagorhir Battle Games outfit- their style of fighting lends itself better, it seems, to getting up close and personal with your enemy rather than whack way with long swords and polearms. Besides- with their padded weapons it's not as easy to get seriously injured!

Vale,

G Licinius Crassus

============================================================
From: "Sensei Phil Perez" <senseiphil@...>
Date: 2005/11/08 Tue AM 06:58:46 CST
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [Nova-Roma] Mos Maiorum - something to think about

============================================================
Salve Crassus,

I know what you're talking about. I have had my injuries as well. Broken nose (several times), wrist, ribs, fingers, toes, collar bone and fractured neck. I am a veteran with hand to hand fighting experience as well as a dozen full contact kick boxing bouts in my martial arts career. Not to mention being the Uke (translation - Oh bruised one) for several Oriental Masters on their USA tours. One of them, a Philippino rattan stick master (Escrima/Arnis) took delight in slamming my arms while showcasing disarming techniques.

I am familiar with the SCA. They have to give up too much authenticity in Roman fighting techniques however, not just accouterments, amice. Medieval fighting is very different, they can get away with it since most of the techniques are of slashing type. Authentic Roman fighting doesn't lend itself to the rattan very well. Grappling was also quite prevalent in the ancient Roman battlefield since the heavy shield (scutum) was not exactly useful once the ranks broke. The miles where expert in the gladius/pugio combination. They had to be, and they had to come in very close to be inside the arc of the battle axe and long swords of most of their enemies. Which of course also accounted for their grappling (Pankration) skills.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus

Salve,

Notice, though, how the majority of those in opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I can't count the number of times I've read repeated "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact and wisdom.

No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to dealing with this problem into a mindless round of home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate mail, but much harder to actually come up with an original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice, too, that this same principle applies equally as well to other discusions that have cropped up here recently.)

Vale,

G Licinius Crassus
============================================================
From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris

============================================================
Salve

"just another thread of Islam-bashing"

How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large ( not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim nations have very little or no interest in assimilating. Second and third generation British and French "citizens" are either burning down parts of France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short time ago.

You know what would help bring about a real movement toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to announce that are going to support the building of churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of Israel would be a given.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Licinius Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was Pilate)


Salve omnes,

I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT necesarily
off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another thread of
Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this discussion reaches that
point, it's time to either put it to bed or move it to another forum.

On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who actually reside in
Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with current events from
first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU were Emperor,
would you want your reports from the provinces to come from
scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from someone who had actually
BEEN there to see what is happening?

Valete,

G Licinius Crassus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer" <sbeer@n...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
> Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this list serves as our "Forum
> Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and visitors meet and talk
about
> everything. I am quite sure that on the original forum there were folks
> discussing politics, scandals, the best address to buy cloth or
wine, the
> latest games or races, their next neighbour´s broken leg or marriage
> problems - in short everything that is discussed everywhere when
people meet
>
> This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is off topic.
> (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what goes on where - some
might
> call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> Valete optime!
> Lucia Flavia Lectrix
>
> -------Originalmeldung-------
>
> Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was Pilate)
>
> Salvete,
>
> this is an off-topic talk; however I am more than willing to explain
> privately what is
> going on in Paris. I live there.
>
> Valete,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> Propraetor Galliae
>
> --- raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@y...> wrote:
>
> > Too much tolerance can be deadly. Just look at the
> > problems in Germany,the American
> > southwest,France,SPAIN,etc.For fear of a facist label
> > the WEST dones nil.
> > --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mjk@d...>
> > wrote:
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > These riots would be nothing new to the Romans;
> > check out about riots
> > > in Roman Alexandria. I'm sure they found that whole
> > middle east and its
> > > provincials a real pest hole at times.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > S P Q R
> >
> > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> >
> > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > Roman Citizen

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:

>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> Many cheers to Tribune Caius Curius Saturninus for making sure

the

> Ludi Plebeii commence!!
>
> subscribe now your favorite gladiator, gladiatrix or animal for

the

> Ludi Plebeii, remember this is the Roman way of honouring the

people

> and Iuppiter OP!! so quirites please write to me at
> rory12001atyahoo.com
>
> & check the Ludi Plebei website as it describes the wonderful
> Retiarus, Thraex, Murmillo and more. Learn about gladiators and
> tactics. the games will be exciting, I promise!!
>

http://www.insulaumbra.com/ludiplebeii/ludi_plebeii/ludi_ple_venation
es.html

>
> Then simply write to me, you can choose 2 Gladiators, animals or

both

> send to me Marca Hortensia at rory12001atyahoo.com
>
> -name of gladiator or animal
> -type of gladiator or animal
> -the tactics, that you will choose among these 3:
>
> 1. Defensive
> 2. "Yourself"
> 3. "Total Attack"
>
> If you have any questions just ask me Marca Hortensia and I'm glad
> to help!
> again for the rules just check the Ludi Plebeii site here:
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/ludiplebeii/
>
> "Venationes" Quirites, join in the celebration to honour

Iuppiter!

> & praise our Tribune Saturninus who has taken

on

> this job with the absence of the plebian aedile,
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
>

Salvete,

I oppose the intercessio of Albucius. For those interested there are
provided my motivations to do so at the end of this message.

However, please enjoy the games and take actively part into them! Let's
not allow this unfortunate incident to mess up our festive mood! Honor
the City, the People and Iuppiter as they surely deserve it!

Subscribe to the chariot races, to the venationes, enjoy and be happy!
:-) Let's make this Ludi one not to forget!


Here are my reasons to oppose the intercessio:

Albucius claims that issue about Ludi Plebei wasn't discussed. This in
simply not true. Plebeian Aedile Serapio started discussion with other
Plebeian Aedile and all of the Tribunes on 2nd October, more than a
month ago. In this discussion the date of Ludi Plebei was set between
the Plebeian Aediles to be the traditional 4th-17th November and
Plebeian Aedile Cicero promised to arrange the games. So the issue was
disucssed between the Plebeian Aediles and Tribunes, altough it's true
that Tribune Albucius himself did not take active part in it. And based
on the discussions on the Tribunes list and privately with Tribunes
yesterday, 3 of the 5 Tribunes agreed to arrange the games. I also
indicated whom of the Tribunes were involved actively in arranging the
games.

What comes to role of Curule Aediles, it is true that I, nor into my
knowledge other Tribunes, have asked their opinion. I simply assumed
that since Plebeian Aediles discussed about the Ludi with Tribunes, the
Curule Aediles weren't going to do the games. I'm most happy to state
on my own behalf that should Curule Aediles wish to arrange the games,
the better, then all they need to do is to say it, and I'm more than
happy if I don't need to do all the work I now need to.

I believe this responses to all issues mentioned by Albucius.

Valete,


Caius Curius Saturninus

Tribunus Plebis
Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
vice-versa
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<glcrassus@...> wrote:

> Salve,
>
> Notice, though, how the majority of those in

opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
can't count the number of times I've read repeated
"kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
and wisdom.

>
> No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the

discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
too, that this same principle applies equally as well
to other discusions that have cropped up here
recently.)

>
> Vale,
>
> G Licinius Crassus
>

============================================================

> From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
> Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
>
>

============================================================

> Salve
>
> "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
>
> How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (

not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
nations have very little or no interest in
assimilating. Second and third generation British and
French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
time ago.

>
> You know what would help bring about a real movement

toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
announce that are going to support the building of
churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
Israel would be a given.

>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gaius Licinius

Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>

> To:

Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was

Pilate)

>
>
> Salve omnes,
>
> I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT

necesarily

> off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another

thread of

> Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this

discussion reaches that

> point, it's time to either put it to bed or move

it to another forum.

>
> On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who

actually reside in

> Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with

current events from

> first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU

were Emperor,

> would you want your reports from the provinces to

come from

> scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from

someone who had actually

> BEEN there to see what is happening?
>
> Valete,
>
> G Licinius Crassus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"

<sbeer@n...> wrote:

> >
> > Salvete!
> > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this

list serves as our "Forum

> > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and

visitors meet and talk

> about
> > everything. I am quite sure that on the original

forum there were folks

> > discussing politics, scandals, the best address

to buy cloth or

> wine, the
> > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s

broken leg or marriage

> > problems - in short everything that is discussed

everywhere when

> people meet
> >
> > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is

off topic.

> > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what

goes on where - some

> might
> > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > Valete optime!
> > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> >
> > -------Originalmeldung-------
> >
> > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07

=== Message Truncated ===


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen






__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Yes, thank you. But his is still the address coded into the Contacts
page. This should be changed.

M. Lucr. Agricola


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:

>
> Salve M. Luctreti Agricola,
>
> Richmal@ was the email name for Quintus Cassius Calvus who left and
> signed off from NR about 2 months back. He was the former webmaster.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > I note that messages sent to the webmaster via the contacts page come
> > back "User unknown" (bouncing off <richmal@c...>).
> >
> > M. Luctretius Agricola
> >
>

Salve
Technically speaking, point 1, 2, 4 and 5 of Albucius' edict are absolutely
meaningless and no ground for a veto and in fact:
as for 1) he didn't say he had discussed it with all Tribunes, just with
other tribunes, and that's true as I recieved a mail before he sent out the
edict in which he proclaimed the games. Regardless of that, he didn' teven
have to contact the other tribunes technically, as we are independant
magistrates. To base a veto on such premise is pretestuous, at the minimum.
As for the Lex Arminia, I think an agreement of the majority of the tribunes
would suffice, and Saturninus had secured that and found himself in a
position when, objectively, time had already ran out, which suggested not to
wait even longer for reaching a whole consensus.
as for 2) again technically speaking, Saturninus is right. Albucius has not
been able to contact him, given he has not even tried, just as much as
myself. I'm assuming Saturninus and Serapio did and failed. But once again,
as de facto the games were not being organized, the fact anyone tried or not
to contact the Aedilis is meaningless, as it's pretty evident that the
Aedilis who failed to report finds himself in derelctio of his duties and
should therefore be accounted as dismissed, leaving the only aedilis left
the only in power and he indeed had already discharged his obligations by
asking someone else to fulfil teh organization of the games.
as for 4) When an Aedilis officially declined to organize the game
(Serapio) and the other simply goes missing, we are facing an evident case
of Force Majeur, and I do not see the point why we shouldn't have the games
organized otherwise. If both the Aediles died during the year and no one
would be notified, does it means we couldn't have games at all because their
ghosts wouldn't be able to ask the curule aediles to take charge of it? I
think that would be plain absurd and plainly against the law that, in any
circumstances (see later on), requires teh games to be organized. But then
again this whole point is moot, as I think what is really important is what
i'll try to explain in point 5)
as for 5) that would be ground of intercessio if Saturninus had actually
violated the law, but personally I think the relevant paragraph of the law
is:
"If both Plebeian Aediles are unreachable and the Ludi beggining
approaches, the Tribunes need to reach an agreemente between themselves or
Curule Aediles to make the Ludi happen. On no way these two Ludi cannot
happen. "
Now, basing on the fact there was indeed an agreement among the Tribunes
once a majority of them agreed on organizing the ludi (and I assume that
happen when Maior, Saturninus and myself agreed), the only thing to keep in
mind is if the Aediles were unreachable. Which brings to Albucius' point 3)
now, point 3) is actually the only point I think could reasonably bring any
force to an intercessio edict under Nova Roma law, as it is true that if the
Aediles had rescheduled the Ludi, an interference by the Tribunes would had
been unlawful. But here we have an Aedilis who plainly said he couldn't
organize the ludi and another who didn't rescheduled them and actually, for
as much as I know, has went missing, being that at least 2 magistrates of
Nova Roma tried to contact him without success. Furthermore, the dates of
the Ludi were not approaching, they had already passed. Now, it's pretty
evident that rescheduling, which would had been a power of the Aediles, had
to happen and be announced BEFORE the actual date the Ludi were supposed to
start. Not that not having happened, again, we find ourselves in front of a
classic derelictio of duties.
Now, the law is extremely clear that "On no way these two Ludi cannot
happen.". The tribunes *NEED* to find an agreement, they have absolutely no
choice about it. Personally, I feel this clear and absolute command
overrules the procedural formalities and we plebeian magistrates all would
had violated the law if, stopping in front of venial details, had we allowed
the Ludi to not be organized.
For all these reasons, I support Saturninus edict again Albucius'
intercessio. Altho I think it would had been preferable that Saturninus had
secured the consensus of all the tribunes on this matter, i feel he acted in
accordance to the spirit of the law and in the most responsible way towards
teh organization of the Ludi.
vale,
Domitius Constantinus Fuscus

Founder of Gens Constantinia
Tribunus Plebis
Aedilis Urbis Iterum


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marcus Cassius Philippus,

> The Subura Bully Boys are always watching you, but
> for different reasons honey ;-)

Hee hee! Well, I guess that my red toga is an
attention getter :-)

Vale,
Diana




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Salvete!

I have tried to submit my entries to the rory12001 address, but twice it
has been returned as undeliverable due to no account existing. Perhaps
someone has an updated address?

Valete,

G Licinius Crassus

Maior wrote:

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> > Many cheers to Tribune Caius Curius Saturninus for making sure
> the
> > Ludi Plebeii commence!!
> >
> > subscribe now your favorite gladiator, gladiatrix or animal for
> the
> > Ludi Plebeii, remember this is the Roman way of honouring the
> people
> > and Iuppiter OP!! so quirites please write to me at
> > rory12001atyahoo.com
> >
> > & check the Ludi Plebei website as it describes the wonderful
> > Retiarus, Thraex, Murmillo and more. Learn about gladiators and
> > tactics. the games will be exciting, I promise!!
> >
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/ludiplebeii/ludi_plebeii/ludi_ple_venation
> es.html
> >
> > Then simply write to me, you can choose 2 Gladiators, animals or
> both
> > send to me Marca Hortensia at rory12001atyahoo.com
> >
> > -name of gladiator or animal
> > -type of gladiator or animal
> > -the tactics, that you will choose among these 3:
> >
> > 1. Defensive
> > 2. "Yourself"
> > 3. "Total Attack"
> >
> > If you have any questions just ask me Marca Hortensia and I'm glad
> > to help!
> > again for the rules just check the Ludi Plebeii site here:
> > http://www.insulaumbra.com/ludiplebeii/
> >
> > "Venationes" Quirites, join in the celebration to honour
> Iuppiter!
> > & praise our Tribune Saturninus who has taken
> on
> > this job with the absence of the plebian aedile,
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "Nova-Roma
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

True, many Islamic nations and groups DO hate the West, but I do not
think the answer lies in religious differences- I believe the answer is
found in their response to the West's policies towards their nations
over the years. Think about it- pretty much all we've done is court them
for their oil...not because we want to 'spread democracy' or 'freedom'
or some such claptrap. If it weren't for their oil we wouldn't give them
the time of day, and they know it. Same thing with Middle Eastern nations; they get tired of being punked out for so long, sure they are going to snap- we just happen to
be the ones punking them out at the moment, so guess who gets the
crosshairs put on them....we do!

Believe me, I have no love for terrorist groups no matter what stripe
they are- be they Islamic fundamentalist, KKK thugs, Christian
anti-abortionists, or whatever- a criminal is a criminal regardless of
his motives. Of course, they say one man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter, so I suppose in the end it remains for the winner to
write the final chapter.

Crassus

raymond fuentes wrote:

> Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
> weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
> w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
> vice-versa
> --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> <glcrassus@...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Notice, though, how the majority of those in
> opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
> it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
> the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
> can't count the number of times I've read repeated
> "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
> certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
> and wisdom.
> >
> > No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the
> discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
> dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
> home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
> mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
> original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
> too, that this same principle applies equally as well
> to other discusions that have cropped up here
> recently.)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > G Licinius Crassus
> >
> =======================================================================================================================> > From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
> > Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
> >
> >
> =======================================================================================================================> > Salve
> >
> > "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
> >
> > How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> nations have very little or no interest in
> assimilating. Second and third generation British and
> French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
> France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
> time ago.
> >
> > You know what would help bring about a real movement
> toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
> announce that are going to support the building of
> churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
> Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
> openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
> Israel would be a given.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gaius Licinius
> Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>
> > To:
> Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> > Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was
> Pilate)
> >
> >
> > Salve omnes,
> >
> > I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT
> necesarily
> > off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another
> thread of
> > Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this
> discussion reaches that
> > point, it's time to either put it to bed or move
> it to another forum.
> >
> > On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who
> actually reside in
> > Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with
> current events from
> > first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU
> were Emperor,
> > would you want your reports from the provinces to
> come from
> > scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from
> someone who had actually
> > BEEN there to see what is happening?
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > G Licinius Crassus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"
> <sbeer@n...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete!
> > > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this
> list serves as our "Forum
> > > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and
> visitors meet and talk
> > about
> > > everything. I am quite sure that on the original
> forum there were folks
> > > discussing politics, scandals, the best address
> to buy cloth or
> > wine, the
> > > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s
> broken leg or marriage
> > > problems - in short everything that is discussed
> everywhere when
> > people meet
> > >
> > > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is
> off topic.
> > > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what
> goes on where - some
> > might
> > > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > > Valete optime!
> > > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> > >
> > > -------Originalmeldung-------
> > >
> > > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> ====== Message Truncated =====>
>
> S P Q R
>
> Fidelis Ad Mortem.
>
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> Roman Citizen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Salve Crasse,

Good points. As I mentioned on another post earlier this year,
Bernard Lewis (What Went Wrong?) also mentions the fact that Islam
had been doing so well from its rise to througout the middle ages
but after western technology, especially military, began to overtake
them from the age of exploration onwards they, especially the
Ottoman Empire, tried to implement change. Losing ground and
territory in Eastern Europe they began adopting western military
customs, attitudes, dress, ideas and all. This eventually was passed
down to the civilian population who adapted fairly well in their
westernization. Now there was still the rest of the Arab world but
the Ottoman Turks were their bosses and didn't care about Arab
opinion anyway.

Some religious leaders wanting to stick to the old ways felt they
were be chastized by Allah for abondoning their earlier ideas and
ways of life. Losing war after war and eventually be colonized by
France and England was, of course, their punishment. By the 1940's
and 50's a new generation of more fanatical groups adhering to these
ideas, came out of the closet and began to voice their ideas and
stirring up the pot. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of
middle eastern states have or had been very secular for many years.
Leaders like Nassar, the Shah, the Syrian dictators, Algeria and
even Saddam kept these fanatical people in their place by
eliminating, exile them, or keeping them in concentration camps for
many years. This sort of action kept them at bay but also made them
all the more angrier, bitter and more resolved. Playing the devil's
advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove secular dictatorships
thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box
whose spirits will certainly come back to haunt us.

This whole scene of revivalism back to the old ways is nothing new
or a symptom of Islam. How many TV evangelists do we see saying
the "decadent" leaderships of North America and Europe allowing
abortion to gay marriage, condoms in schools, money for those
unwilling to work etc. will soon be bringing God's wrath upon us?
I remember David Duke (KKK / NSP) did quite well in politics one
year and imagine if his organizations ever got in power in even one
state? Well slow but sure other fanatical groups in other parts of
the world with their own radical agendas seem to be heading that way.
Also much of the Old Testament taught lessons to its followers as to
the consequences of falling off the straight and narrow path to God -
you would lose your wars, homelands and become vassals of the pagan
empires such as the Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Licinius Crassus
<glcrassus@b...> wrote:

>
> True, many Islamic nations and groups DO hate the West, but I do

not

> think the answer lies in religious differences- I believe the

answer is

> found in their response to the West's policies towards their

nations

> over the years. Think about it- pretty much all we've done is

court them

> for their oil...not because we want to 'spread democracy'

or 'freedom'

> or some such claptrap. If it weren't for their oil we wouldn't

give them

> the time of day, and they know it. Same thing with Middle Eastern

nations; they get tired of being punked out for so long, sure they
are going to snap- we just happen to

> be the ones punking them out at the moment, so guess who gets the
> crosshairs put on them....we do!
>
> Believe me, I have no love for terrorist groups no matter what

stripe

> they are- be they Islamic fundamentalist, KKK thugs, Christian
> anti-abortionists, or whatever- a criminal is a criminal

regardless of

> his motives. Of course, they say one man's terrorist is another

man's

> freedom fighter, so I suppose in the end it remains for the

winner to

> write the final chapter.
>
> Crassus
>
> raymond fuentes wrote:
>
> > Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
> > weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
> > w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
> > vice-versa
> > --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Notice, though, how the majority of those in
> > opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
> > it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
> > the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
> > can't count the number of times I've read repeated
> > "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
> > certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
> > and wisdom.
> > >
> > > No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the
> > discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
> > dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
> > home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
> > mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
> > original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
> > too, that this same principle applies equally as well
> > to other discusions that have cropped up here
> > recently.)
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > G Licinius Crassus
> > >
> > ============================================================
> > > From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
> > > Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
> > >
> > >
> > ============================================================
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
> > >
> > > How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> > not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> > nations have very little or no interest in
> > assimilating. Second and third generation British and
> > French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
> > France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
> > time ago.
> > >
> > > You know what would help bring about a real movement
> > toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
> > announce that are going to support the building of
> > churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
> > Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
> > openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
> > Israel would be a given.
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Gaius Licinius
> > Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@b...>
> > > To:
> > Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> > > Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was
> > Pilate)
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve omnes,
> > >
> > > I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT
> > necesarily
> > > off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another
> > thread of
> > > Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this
> > discussion reaches that
> > > point, it's time to either put it to bed or move
> > it to another forum.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who
> > actually reside in
> > > Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with
> > current events from
> > > first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU
> > were Emperor,
> > > would you want your reports from the provinces to
> > come from
> > > scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from
> > someone who had actually
> > > BEEN there to see what is happening?
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > G Licinius Crassus
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"
> > <sbeer@n...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salvete!
> > > > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this
> > list serves as our "Forum
> > > > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and
> > visitors meet and talk
> > > about
> > > > everything. I am quite sure that on the original
> > forum there were folks
> > > > discussing politics, scandals, the best address
> > to buy cloth or
> > > wine, the
> > > > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s
> > broken leg or marriage
> > > > problems - in short everything that is discussed
> > everywhere when
> > > people meet
> > > >
> > > > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is
> > off topic.
> > > > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what
> > goes on where - some
> > > might
> > > > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > > > Valete optime!
> > > > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> > > >
> > > > -------Originalmeldung-------
> > > >
> > > > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > > > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> > === Message Truncated ===
> >
> >
> > S P Q R
> >
> > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> >
> > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Salve Sempronius,

I've read your email below in detail.

Two months after Cassius's father died, he was well
enough to sell you merchandise and take money from
you. And now 10 months after his father died, there
are those in this forum who claim that Cassius is too
distraught to send you your merchandise or return your
checks. That is simply a feeble excuse used by his
friends/colleagues to defend Cassius, who is certainly
a gentle person worth defending -- if this were not a
recurring problem.

The last time that a citizen complained about
Cassius's business practices, the Curule Aediles
handled it since they are responsible for this kind of
problem. Please contact them so that they can remind
Cassius of his responsibilities.

Vale,
Diana

> His father, as he claimed died last Jan.,

<and yet, end of last March he offered to sell me
<flags. At end of

> April/beginning of May, he apologized for the delay
> and said the flags were in the mail. He also said
> there were NR t-shirts in my size if I was
> interested.
> I said I was. Taxes could also be sent to the same
> PO.
> So, payment for two separate items, two separate
> checks, were sent last May. In June, he emailed
> several in NR he refused to send me the merchandise
> and admitted he held the checks. As of November,
> neither merchandise nor checks have been returned.
>
> Vale,
> A.S.R.

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

> I oppose this terrible intecessio of Tribune
> Albucius which is
> impious in the extreme.

Sit down Hortensia Maior because I agree with you
100%.

Sorry Albucius, but this veto is ludicrous. This
really appears to be a veto used simply for the sake
of using your veto...

I was really looking forward to entering Latina of
Gallia, who killed the man-eating tiger in the Ludi of
2755. After her defeat in 2756, she's back in form and
ready for more action...

Vale,
Diana





__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
I agree with M. Hortensia Maior, and Diana Octavia Aventina. The act of
Albucius is impius, in my opinion. These games are an important part of the
Religio Romana. If a Plebeian Aedile is unable to host them (as they
should), due to incompetance or otherwise, then I find it praiseworthy that
a Tribune of the People has chosen to take it upon himself to host the
games.
Caius Curius Saturninus should be praised for his willinngess to step up
and take charge. We need MORE of this willingness to DO SOMETHING, and LESS
of the legalistic lawyer nonesense. Instead of issuing an intercession
Albucius should have asked Saturninus, "How can *I* help with the games?" It
is intercessions like this that are going to turn citizens away from Nova
Roma.
Valete;
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Pontifex

On 11/8/05, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Maior Quiritibus spd;
>
> I oppose this terrible intecessio of Tribune Albucius which is
> impious in the extreme.
>
> I call upon my fellow tribunes to support Caius Curius Saturninus
> and myself in his pious desire to ensure these Ludi honouring
> Iuppiter OP are duly commenced!
>
> what vanity what folly to ban these religious events!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
>
>
> > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, according the
> > Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma :
> >
> > Article 1 : Opposes, by the present edict, my veto to the (edict
> of)
> > opening, by Tribune of the Plebs Caius Curius Saturninus, of the
> Ludi
> > Plebeii by message n°
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maori D. Octaviae Aventinae Q. Fabio
Buteoni Modiano quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

Hortensia Maior, Octavia Aventina, and Fabius Modianus, the
intercessio does *not* "ban" the games, it simply states that the
proclamation beginning the games was issued incorrectly. I do not
believe that the tribune Minius Albucius intends that the games not be
celebrated, but that they be called by the authorities given the power
to do so in accordance with the law.

Once again, an emotional appeal is (incorrectly) made against the
action of a magistrate performing the duties required of him. None of
your objections answers any of the statements within the veto which
caused the tribune to veto their opening; I should like to hear if
they are true or not --- i.e., if this was a collegial act, as
required, or not.

The games should, of course, be celebrated, but the ends do not
justify the means, "pious" or not. To call the tribune's act impious
is wrong: breaking the law is impious, and the tribune is acting
within his rights to impose a veto upon an act which he feels has
broken the law. Please show otherwise, based on the law and not emotion.

Valete bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Maior Quiritibus spd;
>
> I oppose this terrible intecessio of Tribune Albucius which is
> impious in the extreme.
>
> I call upon my fellow tribunes to support Caius Curius Saturninus
> and myself in his pious desire to ensure these Ludi honouring
> Iuppiter OP are duly commenced!
>
> what vanity what folly to ban these religious events!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
>
>
> > I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, according the
> > Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma :
> >
> > Article 1 : Opposes, by the present edict, my veto to the (edict
> of)
> > opening, by Tribune of the Plebs Caius Curius Saturninus, of the
> Ludi
> > Plebeii by message n°
>

Well said Modianus.

> Caius Curius Saturninus should be praised for his
> willinngess to step up
> and take charge. We need MORE of this willingness to
> DO SOMETHING, and LESS
> of the legalistic lawyer nonesense. Instead of
> issuing an intercession
> Albucius should have asked Saturninus, "How can *I*
> help with the games?" It
> is intercessions like this that are going to turn
> citizens away from Nova
> Roma.
> Valete;
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> Pontifex

__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

C. Equitius Cato quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

Again, emotional appeal is a delightful reminder that we are all
human; but to run at 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction, while
being praiseworthy for the speed, agility, and power of the runner, is
still going in the wrong direction. Violating the law is *definitely*
going in the wrong direction.

Can anyone simply answer Minius Abucius' explanation as to why he
feels the games were called into being improperly?

Valete bene,

Cato

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Dianae Octaviae Aventinae salutem dicit
Thank you. People should be recognized, from time to time, for the good
that they do in Nova Roma. Too many people have invested countless hours in
this organization only to feel like their efforts have been wasted, and
their time is for nothing. Issuing an intercession over the convening of
on-line games in baffling to me.
Saturninus did good in my opinion. So did Maior, and Fuscus for NOT
supporting the intercession. If my reasoning is "too emotional" for some
then so be it. I'm passionate about Nova Roma, and I'm tired of seeing it
fall down into the abyss of legalism.
Vale;
C. Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 11/9/05, Diana Octavia Aventina <dianaaventina@...> wrote:
>
> Well said Modianus.
>
> > Caius Curius Saturninus should be praised for his
> > willinngess to step up
> > and take charge. We need MORE of this willingness to
> > DO SOMETHING, and LESS
> > of the legalistic lawyer nonesense. Instead of
> > issuing an intercession
> > Albucius should have asked Saturninus, "How can *I*
> > help with the games?" It
> > is intercessions like this that are going to turn
> > citizens away from Nova
> > Roma.
> > Valete;
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > Pontifex


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem V Idus Novembris; haec dies comitialis est.


"Both consuls sent word to the senate that there were very slender
hopes of the Samnites remaining at peace. Publilius informed them that
2000 troops from Nola and 4000 Samnites had been admitted into
Palaeopolis, more under pressure from Nola than from any great desire
for their presence on the part of the Greeks; Cornelius sent the
additional information that orders for a general levy had been issued
throughout Samnium, and attempts were being openly made to induce the
neighbouring communities of Privernum, Fundi, and Formiae to rise.
Under these circumstances it was decided to send ambassadors to the
Samnites before actually commencing war. The Samnites sent an insolent
reply. They accused the Romans of wanton aggression, and absolutely
denied the charges made against themselves; they declared that the
assistance which the Greeks had received was not furnished by their
government, nor had they tampered with Fundi and Formiae, for they had
no reason to distrust their own strength if it came to war. Moreover,
it was impossible to disguise the deep irritation which the Samnite
nation felt at the conduct of the Roman people in restoring Fregellae
after they had taken it from the Volscians and destroyed it, and
placing a colony on Samnite territory which the colonists called
Fregellae. If this insult and injury were not removed by those
responsible for it, they would themselves exert all their strength to
get rid of it. The Roman ambassadors invited them to submit the
questions at issue to arbitration before their common friends, but the
Samnites replied: "Why should we beat about the bush? No diplomacy, no
arbitration can adjust our quarrel; arms and the fortune of war can
alone decide the issue. We must meet in Campania." To which the Roman
replied: "Roman soldiers will march not whither the enemy summons
them, but whither their commander leads them."

Publilius meantime had taken up a suitable position between
Palaeopolis and Neapolis in order to prevent them from rendering each
other the mutual assistance they had hitherto given. The time for the
elections was close at hand, and it would have been most inexpedient
for the public interest to recall Publilius, as he was ready to attack
the place and in daily expectation of effecting its capture. An
arrangement was accordingly made with the tribunes of the plebs to
propose to the people that at the expiration of his term of office
Publilius should continue to act as proconsul till the war with the
Greeks was brought to a close. The same step was taken with regard to
Cornelius, who had already entered Samnium, and written instructions
were sent to him to nominate a Dictator to hold the elections. He
nominated M. Claudius Marcellus, and Sp. Postumius was named by him
Master of the Horse. The elections, however, were not held by that
Dictator, doubts having been raised as to whether the proper
formalities had been observed in his nomination. The augurs, when
consulted, declared that they had not been duly observed. The tribunes
characterised their action as dishonest and iniquitous. "How," they
asked, "could they know that there was any irregularity? The consul
rose at midnight to nominate the Dictator; he had made no
communication to any one either officially or privately about the
matter; there was no one living who could say that he had seen or
heard anything which would vitiate the auspices; the augurs sitting
quietly in Rome could not possibly divine what difficulty the consul
may have met with in the camp. Who was there who could not see that
the irregularity which the augurs had discovered lay in the fact that
the Dictator was a plebeian?" These and other objections were raised
by the tribunes. Matters, however, reverted to an interregnum, and
owing to the repeated adjournment of the elections on one pretext
after another, there were no fewer than fourteen interregna. At last
L. Aemilius, the fourteenth interrex, declared C. Poetilius and L.
Papirius Mugilanus duly elected." - Livy, History of Rome 8.23



Tiday is Sadie Hawkins' Day. In A.D. 1288 the Scottish parliament
legislated that any woman could propose to a man in Leap Year. If
refused, the man had to compensate her by one pound. This law was
adopted in France, Switzerland and Italy, and the tradition was
carried to America, Australia and other countries. In the United
States, the idea made its debut in Al Capp's "Li'l Abner" comic strip
on November 15, 1937. Sadie Hawkins was "the homeliest gal in the
hills" who grew tired of waiting for the fellows to come a courtin'.
Her father, Hekzebiah Hawkins, a prominent resident of Dogpatch, was
even more worried about Sadie living at home for the rest of his life,
so he decreed the first annual Sadie Hawkins Day, a foot race in which
the unmarried gals pursued the town's bachelors, with matrimony the
consequence. By the late 1930's the event had swept the nation and had
a life of its own. Life magazine reported over 200 colleges holding
Sadie Hawkins Day events in 1939, only two years after its inception.
It became a woman empowering rite at high schools and college
campuses, long before the modern feminist movement gained prominence.
The basis of Sadie Hawkins Day is that women and girls take the
initiative in inviting the man or boy of their choice out on a date,
typically to a dance attended by other bachelors and their aggressive
dates. When Al Capp created the event, it was not his intention to
have the event occur annually on a specific date because it inhibited
his freewheeling plotting. However, due to its enormous popularity and
the numerous fan letters Capp received, the event became an annual
event in the strip during the month of November, lasting four decades.



"Originally the Lord Mayor of London was elected on the feast of St
Simon and St Jude (28 October), and although the election day was
altered, admittance to office continued to take place on that day
until 1751. From 1752, owing to the adoption of the Gregorian
calendar, Lord Mayor's Day became 9 November. In recent years the Lord
Mayor has been sworn in at Guildhall on the second Friday [now
Saturday] in November, being presented to the Lord Chief Justice on
the following day (Saturday)." - Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and
Fable (Cassell, London, 1988)


Images of Gog and Magog depicted as giants are carried in a
traditional procession in the Lord Mayor's Show by the Lord Mayor of
the City of London. According to the Lord Mayor, the giants Gog and
Magog are traditional guardians of the City of London, and their
images have been carried in the Lord Mayor's Show since the days of
King Henry V. The Lord Mayor's account of Gog and Magog says that the
Roman Emperor Diocletian had thirty-three wicked daughters. He found
thirty three husbands for them to curb their wicked ways; they chafed
at this, and under the leadership of the eldest sister, Alba, they
murdered them. For this crime, they were set adrift at sea; they were
washed ashore on a windswept island, which after Alba was called
Albion. Here they coupled with demons, and gave birth to a race of
giants, among whose descendants were Gog and Magog.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Liv2His.html)
Lord Mayor's Procession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog),
Sadie Hawkins' Day (http://www.sadiehawkinsday.com/index.html)

Salve

> Can anyone simply answer Minius Abucius' explanation as to why he
> feels the games were called into being improperly?

I think I did, in my own counter-intercessio

vale,

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus

Founder of Gens Constantinia
Tribunus Plebis
Aedilis Urbis Iterum

Salve Crassus,

Have you actually read the Koran? There are more than a few scary passages that can only be taken one way: Hatred for Christians and Jews as Infidels that must be killed or subjugated and sold into slavery. If we do submit but without conversion we must live under "Shar'ia" and be taxed at a much higher rate than Muslims and be considered inferior to them in every way. You will not find anything like it in the New Testament.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus

----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Licinius Crassus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris


True, many Islamic nations and groups DO hate the West, but I do not
think the answer lies in religious differences- I believe the answer is
found in their response to the West's policies towards their nations
over the years. Think about it- pretty much all we've done is court them
for their oil...not because we want to 'spread democracy' or 'freedom'
or some such claptrap. If it weren't for their oil we wouldn't give them
the time of day, and they know it. Same thing with Middle Eastern nations; they get tired of being punked out for so long, sure they are going to snap- we just happen to
be the ones punking them out at the moment, so guess who gets the
crosshairs put on them....we do!

Believe me, I have no love for terrorist groups no matter what stripe
they are- be they Islamic fundamentalist, KKK thugs, Christian
anti-abortionists, or whatever- a criminal is a criminal regardless of
his motives. Of course, they say one man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter, so I suppose in the end it remains for the winner to
write the final chapter.

Crassus

raymond fuentes wrote:

> Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
> weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
> w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
> vice-versa
> --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> <glcrassus@...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > Notice, though, how the majority of those in
> opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
> it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
> the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
> can't count the number of times I've read repeated
> "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
> certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
> and wisdom.
> >
> > No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the
> discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
> dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
> home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
> mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
> original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
> too, that this same principle applies equally as well
> to other discusions that have cropped up here
> recently.)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > G Licinius Crassus
> >
> =======================================================================================================================> > From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
> > Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
> >
> >
> =======================================================================================================================> > Salve
> >
> > "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
> >
> > How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> nations have very little or no interest in
> assimilating. Second and third generation British and
> French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
> France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
> time ago.
> >
> > You know what would help bring about a real movement
> toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
> announce that are going to support the building of
> churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
> Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
> openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
> Israel would be a given.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gaius Licinius
> Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>
> > To:
> Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> > Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was
> Pilate)
> >
> >
> > Salve omnes,
> >
> > I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT
> necesarily
> > off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another
> thread of
> > Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this
> discussion reaches that
> > point, it's time to either put it to bed or move
> it to another forum.
> >
> > On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who
> actually reside in
> > Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with
> current events from
> > first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU
> were Emperor,
> > would you want your reports from the provinces to
> come from
> > scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from
> someone who had actually
> > BEEN there to see what is happening?
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > G Licinius Crassus
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"
> <sbeer@n...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete!
> > > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this
> list serves as our "Forum
> > > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and
> visitors meet and talk
> > about
> > > everything. I am quite sure that on the original
> forum there were folks
> > > discussing politics, scandals, the best address
> to buy cloth or
> > wine, the
> > > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s
> broken leg or marriage
> > > problems - in short everything that is discussed
> everywhere when
> > people meet
> > >
> > > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is
> off topic.
> > > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what
> goes on where - some
> > might
> > > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > > Valete optime!
> > > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> > >
> > > -------Originalmeldung-------
> > >
> > > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> ====== Message Truncated =====>
>
> S P Q R
>
> Fidelis Ad Mortem.
>
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> Roman Citizen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Equitius Cato Q. Fabio Buteoni Modiano D. Constantino Fusco
quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

Why yes, you did, Constantinus Fuscus. Thank you. It was mistaken of
me to respond to Hortensia Maior, Fabius Modianus and Octavia Aventina
before moving along and getting to *your* response, and I apologize.

To Fabius Modianus' stirring defense of using an emotional appeal to
respond to a legal question, I simply say that there is a time and
place for emotion. I am as emotional in my defense of the upholding
of the law as he is in championing citizens' efforts to take active
roles in the Republic. If we did not have the law, we would not have
a Republic worth the name.

Valete bene,

Cato

A. Apollonius Ti. Galerio omnibusque sal.

I don't want to get into the main point of this
discussion because I know very little about Islam or
the history of the Islamic world, but I would just
like to comment briefly on your interesting
punctuation:

> How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> nations have very little or no interest in
> assimilating. Second and third generation British
> and French "citizens" are either burning down parts
> of France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a
> short time ago.

I urge you not to put "citizens" in quotation marks,
at least when referring to the bombers who attacked
London Transport in July. Those men were full, legal
citizens of the U.K., and indeed as I understand it
most if not all of them were born in Britain. It is
very important for Britons and others to understand
this.

Pretending that they were not really British, or that
they were not proper citizens, will only lead us to
miss the real nature of the problem. There is a
tendency in Britain for people to blame just about
every problem they can think of on immigrants. But
blaming immigrants for problems which are really
caused by native citizens will simply stop us solving
the problems.

It's true that many children and grandchildren of
immigrants, though themselves citizens of the U.K.,
have not shown much interest in thoroughly
"assimilating" themselves into British society, but
they cannot be entirely blamed for this, because they
were never really led to believe that they were
expected to do so. Until very recently the dominant
idea in Britain was that people should be allowed and
even encouraged to keep close ties with their
ancestral cultures. And it's hard to say with
confidence that that's such a bad idea. Do you fancy
the idea of being "assimilated"? It sounds pretty
unpleasant to me.

We are all Romans struggling to keep in touch with our
cultural inheritance in the midst of non-Romans. We
deliberately choose to assert and foster a distinct
cultural identity which is in contrast to the dominant
culture of our neighbours, although our neighbours'
culture is in many cases derived from our own. When
Romans went to settle in Hispania or in Africa or in
Germania, they didn't want to be "assimilated"; in
fact they encouraged their native neighbours to copy
*them*, and many did.

So I think we should have some sympathy for the idea
of keeping a distinct cultural identity alive in a
"foreign" place. If we believe that people should
completely adopt the culture of the place they live
in, why are you not abandoning all this silly Roman
stuff and contenting yourself with modern American
culture? Why am I not doing the same in Britain? Why
are we encouraging Africans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese,
Russians to adopt Roman culture when it is nothing to
do with the cultural heritage of their native lands?

The important thing is not cultural difference but
what we do about it. When a person makes cultural
difference an excuse to harm others, then there's
something wrong. I think it's important to say that
what the bombers in London did wrong was not to reject
British culture: they have a right to reject or accept
what they please. What they did wrong was to kill
innocent people. And, more than that, they did wrong
to attack the state which, whether they accept its
cultural background or not, has given them shelter and
protection just as it has given shelter and protection
to all its citizens. The fact that they were British
citizens makes their act *worse*, and that's another
reason we should emphasize that they were citizens.
But if we start thinking and suggesting that people
born in Britain to parents of British nationality are
not proper citizens simply because their parents or
grandparents came from somewhere else, or because they
speak poor English, or because they don't know the
name of the Prince of Wales, or because they don't eat
fish and chips, or because their skin isn't pale, or
because they're not members of the Church of England -
in short, if we make them feel like second-class
citizens in their own country - then they really will
have a legitimate grievance.

I know that this isn't what you yourself are saying,
but those little quotation-marks around the word
"citizens" is the beginning of the journey that leads
us to that conclusion, and it's not a conclusion which
will help anyone.





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A. Apollonius P. Memmio omnibusque sal.

It looks like the matter has for practical purposes
been settled, but it's always nice to have a little
legal workout, so let me see what I can make of these
points.

> 1/ Tribune Curius wrote that « I discussed about
> this with other
> Tribunes ». This is not true, for the first message
> sent by Hon.
> Curius has been sent today 8th November at 05 :44.
> and begins by «
> Now what should we do then? I think we should handle
> the games and
> require an explanation from the Servius Labienus
> Cicero why he isn't
> arranging the games. (..)».
>
> As far as I am concerned, I had not been able to
> answer this post
> since this morning till I have read this evening the
> message on the
> opening of the Ludi. So, telling that the point has
> been discussed is
> not true, not to say more.
>
> An act issued by a magistrate of Nova Roma must not
> based on false
> information. Such an act violates the roman virtues,
> specially
> Veritas, on which are founded our constitution.
>
> Furthermore, Tribune Curius's act violates the
> article 4.3. of Lex
> Arminia which requires an « agreement » between the
> Tribunes between
> themselves or with the Curule Aediles.

There are really two separate grounds here, and it
will be useful to separate them. The first is, in
summary, that the edictum is vitiated by a false
statement.

I can sympathize with this argument, and indeed it
might be sufficient to form the basis of an
intercessio if the tribunes were, as in the ancient
republic, free to veto things on moral as well as on
strictly legal grounds. But I think it must be
conceded that this argument is really a moral one and
not a legal one.

There are, it is true, a number of general
constitutional principles which, although they are
nowhere written down, should nonetheless be regarded
as a source of law: the principle of collegiality, the
principle of annuity, the principle of the supremacy
of the populus, and so on. These are, quite properly
derived from historical precedent and from current
law. But I do not think it is possible to deduce the
existence of a general principle of truthfulness
either from history or from current law - I simply
cannot think of anything which suggests its existence.

The only possible candidate is the crime of falsum
(lex Salicia poenalis article XVI); but this offence
is narrowly defined, and is not applicable here. I do
not think it is possible to deduce from this any
general principle that magisterial statements must be
truthful in order to be legally valid.

Even if there were such a principle, it would surely
be arguable that in order to qualify as an offence
against truthfulness a statement would have to be not
only false but deliberately misleading, and I don't
think anyone has any reason to believe that C. Curius
has intended to mislead or deceive anyone.

The second argument is a more precise and legal one,
specifically that under the lex Arminia article 4.3
the tribunes are required to reach an agreement either
among themselves or with the aediles curules before
they are legally entitled to assume responsibility for
the ludi. The text of the article is as follows:

"If both Plebeian Aediles are unreachable and the Ludi
beggining approaches, the Tribunes need to reach an
agreemente between themselves or Curule Aediles to
make the Ludi happen. On no way these two Ludi cannot
happen."

The problem with applying this article is that it only
strictly applies when "both plebejan aediles are
unreachable". That is not the case here, for one of
the aediles is reachable and has been discussing the
matter with one of the tribunes.

If we consider that the article does nonetheless
apply, we must consider Domitius Constantinus'
argument that C. Curius did reach agreement with at
least a majority of the tribunes, and that that is
sufficient to satisfy the requirements of this
article. This is very much a matter of interpretation:
the words "an agreement between themselves" could mean
that they must all agree, or merely that a majority
must agree, and it is frankly difficult to say which
is the more appropriate interpretation.

There is more to say on this point, but it will be
better said later when other things have been
considered.

> 2/ Tr. Curius says that « neither the Tribunes or
> other Plebeian
> Aedile Manius Constantinus Serapio have been able to
> contact Servius
> Labienus Cicero ».
>
> At this time, I have never been informed, by « the
> Tribunes », of
> such tries. So either my colleague Curius intends to
> take a decision
> on behalf of the whole tribunate, what he must not,
> or this sentence,
> specially using the collective, is uncorrect.
>
> Furthermore, the message sent this morning to the
> other tribunes by
> Hon. Curius shows that, apparently, Cicero has
> really *not* been
> asked by the tribunes - who ? - to organize the
> games.
>
> Similarly, an act issued by a magistrate of Nova
> Roma must not based
> on false information. Such an act violates the roman
> virtues,
> specially Veritas, on which are founded our
> constitution.
>
> Furthermore, Tribune Curius's act violates the
> article 4.3. of Lex
> Arminia which requires an « agreement » between the
> Tribunes between
> themselves or with the Curule Aediles.

The arguments presented above concerning truthfulness
apply equally here, as indeed do those concerning
article 4.3 of the lex Arminia.

I have to say that I am not wholly persuaded by
Domitius Constantinus' argument that P. Memmius has
not "been able to contact" Ser. Labienus merely
because he has not in fact contacted him. To my mind
the natural interpretation of "has not been able to
contact" is that either he has tried and failed or
else he has not tried but would have failed even if he
had tried. Clearly it is not true to say that Albucius
has tried and failed. But it may well be true to say
that he would have failed even if he had tried, and in
that case in a sense Saturninus' statement is
accurate.

It is also possible to argue, as Fuscus has done, that
the statement "the tribunes have done X" is true if a
majority of the tribunes have done X. I can see the
sense in this. One would happily say "the senate has
approved X" if only a majority of senatores had voted
in favour of X. But there is a difference here: the
senate is a corporate body which makes it decisions by
majoritarian voting. Thus when it is said that "the
senate" has done X, it is necessarily implied that it
has done it by a majority vote, because this is the
only way in which it is capable of doing anything.
Similarly, when one says "the censores have done X",
it is true even if only one censor has actually done X
and the other has done nothing at all. But again this
is because the censores are by their nature considered
in law to act always as one, and anything done by one
and not contradicted by the other is to be taken as
being done in the name of both. The tribunes, however,
are not like that. They are by their nature
independent magistrates. This general statement is
somewhat undermined by the fact that our present lex
constitutiva places upon them certain constraints -
quite unhistorical and contrary to the essential
nature of the office of tribune - which require them
in some circumstances to act by majority. But I think
it is still true to say that the tribunes are in
essence independent magistrates and that a statement
that "the tribunes have done X" ought to be taken to
mean that *all* the tribunes have done X. Nonetheless,
the fact that this particular statement of Saturninus
was somewhat misleading (and not, I'm sure,
deliberately so) does not vitiate his action in the
eyes of the law.

Again, there is more to say, but I shall say it later.

> 3/ Even if Lex Arminia de officiis aedilium plebis
> says that «
> On no way these two Ludi cannot happen. », it says
> in its
> 4.1.paragraph that « The Plebeian Aediles are free
> to make the agenda
> of events the Ludi, or *even changing the dates of
> beggining/ending
> or events as the needs they consider relevant.* »
> [my emphasizing].
>
> No element is brought by Tribune Curius to show if
> Aediles Cicero and
> Serapio have organized themselves to postpone the
> date of the games,
> to let them been organized, as asked by Lex Arminia,
> firstly by the
> Aediles.
>
> Saying that the Ludi *should* [my emph.] take place
> from November 4th
> to 7th (sic, in fact 17 th) denies this first
> precaution opened by
> Lex Arminia.
>
> So, the decision taken by Tribune Curius violates
> Lex Arminia,
> specially its article 4.1., for it did not allow the
> Aediles Plebis
> to use all the possibilities offered and
> requirements asked to them
> by this law.

This is a rather tricky point. It is true that the
aediles plebis had the power to reschedule the games.
And it must be said that it is the lex Arminia itself
which is to some extent at fault here. It provides
many different back-up plans to make sure that the
ludi can take place. It is, of course, always a good
idea to have more than one back-up plan. But it is
very important to say clearly which back-up plan
should be used first, and which one should be used if
the first one fails, and so on. The lex Arminia
doesn't spell this out as clearly as one would like,
and the result is that we cannot be completely sure at
what point it becomes appropriate to put which plan
into action.

One plan is for the aediles to reschedule the ludi. It
seems natural that this should be the first back-up
plan, though nowhere is this clearly stated. If so,
then clearly no other back-up plan should be put into
action until this first back-up plan - the
rescheduling - fails. But how can we tell when the
plan has failed? It will always be possible to say
"the ludi haven't happened yet, but maybe they have
been rescheduled for next week". Eventually it will be
the last day of the year, and we can all agree "yes,
it is pretty clear now that the ludi have not been
rescheduled; the back-up plan has failed; now we need
to go to the second back-up plan, which is for someone
else to organize the ludi". But the problem is that by
the time we are saying this, it's too late for
*anyone* to organize the ludi.

Moreover, the lex casts some doubt on whether this
first back-up plan is really a back-up plan at all,
for in 4.3 it says that the tribunes must take action
"if both plebejan aediles are unreachable and the
beginning of the ludi approaches". The beginning of
the ludi? Clearly the cannot mean the day when the
actual ludi will begin, because until someone has
organized the ludi no one knows what day they will
begin. It can only mean the day on which they would
*usually* begin. But if the tribunes are required to
take responsibility if the usual beginning of the ludi
is approaching, then this seems to imply that they are
not supposed to wait around in case the ludi have
merely been rescheduled: they are supposed to assume
that the ludi are going to begin on time, and if
there's some prospect that they will not begin on time
then they must act, unless they know that the ludi
have already been deliberately postponed by the
aediles. But here again we have a problem, because
article 4.3 only applies if *both* plebejan aediles
are unreachable, and that is not the case here. A real
muddle.

So I think we must accept that someone has to make a
judgement about whether the first back-up plan has
failed and it is time to go to the second one. Who is
responsible for making that judgement? The lex doesn't
say, but article 4.3 seems to imply that it is the
tribunes. In any case I think in this case it was
probably reasonable to conclude that it had failed.
First, as Fuscus says, one of the two plebejan aediles
had said (as I understand it) that not only was he
going to be unable to organize the games at their
usual time, but that he was going to be unable to
organize them at any time. Secondly, the other aedile
is, it is fairly clear, missing, and it would be
foolhardy to assume that he has rescheduled the ludi
without telling anyone. Thirdly, and again Fuscus says
this, when the usual time for the ludi to begin has
actually already passed and neither aedilis plebis has
said anything about rescheduling it, it is really
quite safe to assume that they are not going to
reschedule it, or else they would have done so
already.

It is not, I must admit, a thoroughly satisfactory
argument, but since the problem arises from an
ambiguity in the law itself there is always going to
be some difficulty. I think the argument is, in any
case, sufficient.

> 4/ Furthermore, no element is brought to show that
> both Aediles
> Plebis Serapio and Cicero have asked the Curule
> Aediles to take these
> games in charge, as provided by Lex Arminia, article
> 4.2., 1st
> sentence.
>
> So, the decision taken by Tribune Curius violates
> Lex Arminia,
> specially its article 4.2., for it did not allow the
> Aediles Plebis
> to use all the possibilities offered and
> requirements asked to them
> by this law.

This really is the core of Albucius' argument, for it
also lies behind grounds 1 and 2, and I, unlike
Fuscus, think that this, and not ground 3, is the
strongest of the five.

The essential problem is that the lex Arminia appears
to set out a procedure which ought to be followed, and
on the face of it it appears that the procedure has
not been followed. It is not quite so simple, however,
because the lex Arminia is again somewhat unclear
about the details.

The relevant articles of the lex are these:

"4.2) - If both Plebeian Aediles feel unable to
organize one of these games, they can ask for a Curule
Aedile to organize the game. If neither Curule Aedile
can organize the game, the game becomes resposability
of the Tribunes."

"4.3) - If both Plebeian Aediles are unreachable and
the Ludi beggining approaches, the Tribunes need to
reach an agreemente between themselves or Curule
Aediles to make the Ludi happen. On no way these two
Ludi cannot happen."

The idea seems to be that the aediles curules will be
the first back-up, and the tribuni plebis the second
back-up. That idea if quite clearly expressed in 4.2.
But 4.2 only applies "if *both* plebejan aediles feel
unable to organize the games" (my emphasis). That is
not the case here, or at least we don't know that it's
the case: one aedile feels unable to organize the
games, but we don't know what the other one feels
because he can't be contacted.

So then we look at 4.3, which confuses us by saying
that the *tribunes* are the first back-up: it is their
responsibility to reach an agreement, though it seems
that they can choose, by agreement with the aediles
curules, to allow the aediles curules to organize the
games rather than do it themselves. But again we have
a problem: 4.3 only applies "if both plebejan aediles
are unreachable and the beginning of the ludi
approaches". That is not the case here either.

So what we have is two different procedures. One is
for us "if both plebejan aediles feel unable to
organize the games". The other is for us "if both
plebejan aediles are unreachable". There is no
procedure to cover our present case, which is that one
aedile is unreachable and the other feels unable to
organize the games. The lex doesn't tell us what to
do, but it does make it clear that *someone* must do
*something*, for it says very clearly that "on no
account may these ludi fail to happen".

In these circumstances there is a real danger that
both the tribunes and the aediles curules will sit
back and do nothing. Technically they could do so,
according to the lex Arminia. The aediles curules
would say "we are only obliged to act if both aediles
plebis feel unable to organize the games, and that's
not the case"; the tribuni could say "we are only
obliged to act if both aediles plebis are unreachable,
and that's not the case". Thus the clear purpose of
the lex Arminia, which - it cannot be disputed - is to
ensure that *someone* organized the ludi *somehow*,
would be frustrated.

Since neither 4.2 nor 4.3 strictly applied to this
situation, I do not think we can say that there was
any legal obligation upon the aediles curules to act,
and indeed 4.2 makes it clear that the obligation is
not upon the aediles curules at all - it is upon the
aediles plebis to ask them. They are not obliged to
accept, and they are certainly not obliged to
spontaneously offer. It is possible, though I think it
would be rather harsh, to say that M'. Constantinus,
as the sole active aedilis plebis, ought to have put
4.2 into action even though it was not technically
applicable, and that he ought therefore to have asked
the aediles curules to help. But we are not talking
here about whether M'. Constantinus has acted legally
- we are talking about whether the edictum of C.
Curius is legal. And even if 4.2 were applicable to
this situation, I think it is quite reasonable to
infer that if the aediles plebis for some reason fail
to ask the aediles curules to help, the responsibility
to act falls to the tribuni plebis. The contrast
between the words about the aediles curules and the
words about the tribuni is clear. The aediles plebis
are entitled to "ask" the aediles curules to help, but
the aediles curules do not have to do so. But if they
do not, the ludi "become the responsibility of" the
tribunes.

This is also the thrust of 4.3, which again allows the
tribunes to ask the aediles curules for help but does
not oblige the aediles curules to do so. The
responsibility remains with the tribunes.

So even though neither 4.2 nor 4.3 strictly applies, I
think there is enough in common between them to allow
us to derive a general principle from them. That
principle is this: "it is ultimately the
responsibility of the tribunes to ensure that the ludi
take place". The buck stops with the tribunes. If both
aediles plebis are unable to organize the games, 4.2
applies; if both are missing, 4.3 applies. If neither
applies, then I think it is perfectly lawful and
proper that the tribunes should be the ones to take
charge of the situation and to act as they think best.
It is perhaps to be hoped that they would be able to
act together, but given the constraints of time it
surely cannot be considered unlawful for one or more
tribunes to have acted alone in order to give effect
to the clear intent of the lex Arminia: to ensure that
the ludi take place.

> 5/ The argument relative to the fact that « this
> event is
> arranged for citizens » does not authorize a Tribune
> of the Plebs to
> violate the law. The most irregular things may be
> done « for
> citizens ». Law precisely exists to avoid such
> situations.

This is of course entirely true, but I do not think
that in itself it invalidates the edictum. An edictum
may be legally valid even if the reason it is issued
is of dubious legal standing, so long as it itself
violates no legal rule.

For these reasons I am of the opinion that the legal
arguments put forward by P. Memmius for his
intercessio are not sufficient to warrant that
intercessio. I hope this has been of some help or
interest to those who take an interest in such things.



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Salve Pauline,

Hear, hear! I totally agree with your post- and, inparticular, the
passage I have quoted. I've been keeping an eye on ME events for some
years, and I think that- far from being a mere devil's advocate
position- your opinion is spot on.

> Playing the devil's advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove
> secular dictatorships
> thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box whose spirits
> will certainly come back to haunt us.

Let us hope that our macroworld leaders will come to see this as well!

Vale bene,

Gaius Licinius Crassus

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

> Salve Crasse,
>
> Good points. As I mentioned on another post earlier this year,
> Bernard Lewis (What Went Wrong?) also mentions the fact that Islam
> had been doing so well from its rise to througout the middle ages
> but after western technology, especially military, began to overtake
> them from the age of exploration onwards they, especially the
> Ottoman Empire, tried to implement change. Losing ground and
> territory in Eastern Europe they began adopting western military
> customs, attitudes, dress, ideas and all. This eventually was passed
> down to the civilian population who adapted fairly well in their
> westernization. Now there was still the rest of the Arab world but
> the Ottoman Turks were their bosses and didn't care about Arab
> opinion anyway.
>
> Some religious leaders wanting to stick to the old ways felt they
> were be chastized by Allah for abondoning their earlier ideas and
> ways of life. Losing war after war and eventually be colonized by
> France and England was, of course, their punishment. By the 1940's
> and 50's a new generation of more fanatical groups adhering to these
> ideas, came out of the closet and began to voice their ideas and
> stirring up the pot. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of
> middle eastern states have or had been very secular for many years.
> Leaders like Nassar, the Shah, the Syrian dictators, Algeria and
> even Saddam kept these fanatical people in their place by
> eliminating, exile them, or keeping them in concentration camps for
> many years. This sort of action kept them at bay but also made them
> all the more angrier, bitter and more resolved. Playing the devil's
> advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove secular dictatorships
> thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box
> whose spirits will certainly come back to haunt us.
>
> This whole scene of revivalism back to the old ways is nothing new
> or a symptom of Islam. How many TV evangelists do we see saying
> the "decadent" leaderships of North America and Europe allowing
> abortion to gay marriage, condoms in schools, money for those
> unwilling to work etc. will soon be bringing God's wrath upon us?
> I remember David Duke (KKK / NSP) did quite well in politics one
> year and imagine if his organizations ever got in power in even one
> state? Well slow but sure other fanatical groups in other parts of
> the world with their own radical agendas seem to be heading that way.
> Also much of the Old Testament taught lessons to its followers as to
> the consequences of falling off the straight and narrow path to God -
> you would lose your wars, homelands and become vassals of the pagan
> empires such as the Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Licinius Crassus
> <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> >
> > True, many Islamic nations and groups DO hate the West, but I do
> not
> > think the answer lies in religious differences- I believe the
> answer is
> > found in their response to the West's policies towards their
> nations
> > over the years. Think about it- pretty much all we've done is
> court them
> > for their oil...not because we want to 'spread democracy'
> or 'freedom'
> > or some such claptrap. If it weren't for their oil we wouldn't
> give them
> > the time of day, and they know it. Same thing with Middle Eastern
> nations; they get tired of being punked out for so long, sure they
> are going to snap- we just happen to
> > be the ones punking them out at the moment, so guess who gets the
> > crosshairs put on them....we do!
> >
> > Believe me, I have no love for terrorist groups no matter what
> stripe
> > they are- be they Islamic fundamentalist, KKK thugs, Christian
> > anti-abortionists, or whatever- a criminal is a criminal
> regardless of
> > his motives. Of course, they say one man's terrorist is another
> man's
> > freedom fighter, so I suppose in the end it remains for the
> winner to
> > write the final chapter.
> >
> > Crassus
> >
> > raymond fuentes wrote:
> >
> > > Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
> > > weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
> > > w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
> > > vice-versa
> > > --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Notice, though, how the majority of those in
> > > opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
> > > it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
> > > the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
> > > can't count the number of times I've read repeated
> > > "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
> > > certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
> > > and wisdom.
> > > >
> > > > No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the
> > > discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
> > > dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
> > > home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
> > > mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
> > > original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
> > > too, that this same principle applies equally as well
> > > to other discusions that have cropped up here
> > > recently.)
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > G Licinius Crassus
> > > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > > From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
> > > > Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> > > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > > Salve
> > > >
> > > > "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
> > > >
> > > > How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> > > not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> > > nations have very little or no interest in
> > > assimilating. Second and third generation British and
> > > French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
> > > France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
> > > time ago.
> > > >
> > > > You know what would help bring about a real movement
> > > toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
> > > announce that are going to support the building of
> > > churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
> > > Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
> > > openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
> > > Israel would be a given.
> > > >
> > > > Vale
> > > >
> > > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Gaius Licinius
> > > Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@b...>
> > > > To:
> > > Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > >
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> > > > Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was
> > > Pilate)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve omnes,
> > > >
> > > > I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT
> > > necesarily
> > > > off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another
> > > thread of
> > > > Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this
> > > discussion reaches that
> > > > point, it's time to either put it to bed or move
> > > it to another forum.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who
> > > actually reside in
> > > > Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with
> > > current events from
> > > > first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU
> > > were Emperor,
> > > > would you want your reports from the provinces to
> > > come from
> > > > scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from
> > > someone who had actually
> > > > BEEN there to see what is happening?
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > G Licinius Crassus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"
> > > <sbeer@n...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salvete!
> > > > > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this
> > > list serves as our "Forum
> > > > > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and
> > > visitors meet and talk
> > > > about
> > > > > everything. I am quite sure that on the original
> > > forum there were folks
> > > > > discussing politics, scandals, the best address
> > > to buy cloth or
> > > > wine, the
> > > > > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s
> > > broken leg or marriage
> > > > > problems - in short everything that is discussed
> > > everywhere when
> > > > people meet
> > > > >
> > > > > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is
> > > off topic.
> > > > > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what
> > > goes on where - some
> > > > might
> > > > > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > > > > Valete optime!
> > > > > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> > > > >
> > > > > -------Originalmeldung-------
> > > > >
> > > > > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > > > > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> > > === Message Truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > > S P Q R
> > >
> > > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> > >
> > > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > > Roman Citizen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

Here is a short text about history of Ludi Plebeii and Iuppiter, many
thanks for Emilia Curia Finnica:

History of Ludi Plebeii and Juppiter

Originally the god of the sky and it’s phenomena, Iuppiter, later
assimilated with the Greek deity Zeus, was the main god for the Romans.
As such he was called Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, but was worshipped with
numerous epithets and for different functions. Every Idus was sacred to
Iuppiter and his priest was flamen Dialis.

Iuppiter’s temple in Rome was founded on a high point on the
Capitoline hill. This major project was started by the Roman king
Tarquinius Priscus, but finished only in the early republican era. The
temple itself was impressing in size and decoration looking much like
Etruscan temples with it’s terracotta statues on top, with Iuppiter in
a chariot of four horses, and hexastylos order. Later many
restaurations took place. In the temple there were two other cellae:
Iuno’s on the left and Minerva’s on the right, the goddesses forming
the Capitoline triad with Iuppiter. Two of the many previous althars of
the site also remained within the temple: Terminus and Iuventas. This
was where every triumph would end, where the senate would have the
first meeting of the year and where newly elected consuls would make
the first offering.

Ludi Plebeii, that took place in every November 4th to 17th, was
something like Ludi Romani for the common people. It was first
celebrated in 216 bcr and it included races, games and theatre
performances. The first nine days were for ludi scaenici. November 13th
was the central point of the festival with the Fiest of Iuppiter and
festivals of Feronia and Fortuna Primigenia and Pietas. It was followed
by ludi circenses. Also Mundes Patet (for Dis and Proserpina), November
8th, a cavalry parade in honour of Castor and Pollux, November 14th,
and a festival of Ceres, November 18th, coincided with the Ludi
Plebeii.

Valete,

Caius Curius Saturninus

Tribunus Plebis
Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

M. Hortensia G.Buteo Modiano spd;
as an ex-lawyer Gai Buteo I entirely agree with you!
This nit-picking is absurd as Aedile Serapio did warn us about the
Ludi Plebeii, and Caius Curius Saturninus has the piety, the will
and the experience to stage the games. I am more than happy to help
him and Tribune Fuscus approved too.

This is the 2nd time Tribune Albucius vetoed an aspect of the games.
The first time was the Cultural award during the Megalesia. Frankly
I see this as an interference preventing us with carrying out the
Religio.

I believe Pontiff Buteo our cives and magistrates need some
discussion of the religious nature of the games....

I am trying to think of an historical time in Rome's history when
the ludi were cancelled. Does anyone have an idea? I think Cordus
said once, very rarely in event of a national emergency.

bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Major TRP

If my reasoning is "too emotional" for some

> then so be it. I'm passionate about Nova Roma, and I'm tired of

seeing it

> fall down into the abyss of legalism.
> Vale;
> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 11/9/05, Diana Octavia Aventina <dianaaventina@y...> wrote:
> >
> >

Avete frater

I ask senator Sextus Apollonius Scipio an aid for as the group works
Thanks

valete omnes

---

> >
> > M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> > Many cheers to Tribune Caius Curius Saturninus for making sure
> the
> > Ludi Plebeii commence!!
> >
> > subscribe now your favorite gladiator, gladiatrix or animal for
> the
> > Ludi Plebeii, remember this is the Roman way of honouring the
> people
> > and Iuppiter OP!! so quirites please write to me at
> > rory12001atyahoo.com
> >
> > & check the Ludi Plebei website as it describes the wonderful
> > Retiarus, Thraex, Murmillo and more. Learn about gladiators and
> > tactics. the games will be exciting, I promise!!
> >
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/ludiplebeii/
> >
> > Then simply write to me, you can choose 2 Gladiators, animals or
> both
> > send to me Marca Hortensia at rory12001atyahoo.com
> >
> > -name of gladiator or animal
> > -type of gladiator or animal
> > -the tactics, that you will choose among these 3:
> >
> > 1. Defensive
> > 2. "Yourself"
> > 3. "Total Attack"
> >
> > If you have any questions just ask me Marca Hortensia and I'm

glad

> > to help!
> > again for the rules just check the Ludi Plebeii site here:
> > http://www.insulaumbra.com/ludiplebeii/
> >
> > "Venationes"

Quirites, join in the celebration to honour Iuppiter

> & praise our Tribune Saturninus who has taken
> on
> > this job with the absence of the plebian aedile,
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
> >
>

C. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori omnibusque S.P.D.

Salve et salvete.

Hortensia Maior, as an ex-lawyer you *should* be very attuned to the
importance of obeying the law.

If Albucius had questions about it he was certainly within his rights
to act, as I'm sure you would, as a tribune, if you thought the law
was being broken --- as indeed, you have acted. You are falling into
the trap of questioning someone's motives because you dislike their
actions. Remember what it was like to be on the *other* side of the
"impious" stick --- do not be too hasty to hit someone else with it.


Vale et valete,

Cato

> M. Hortensia G.Buteo Modiano spd;
> as an ex-lawyer Gai Buteo I entirely agree with you!
> This nit-picking is absurd as Aedile Serapio did warn us about the
> Ludi Plebeii, and Caius Curius Saturninus has the piety, the will
> and the experience to stage the games. I am more than happy to help
> him and Tribune Fuscus approved too.
>
> This is the 2nd time Tribune Albucius vetoed an aspect of the games.
> The first time was the Cultural award during the Megalesia. Frankly
> I see this as an interference preventing us with carrying out the
> Religio.
>
> I believe Pontiff Buteo our cives and magistrates need some
> discussion of the religious nature of the games....
>
> I am trying to think of an historical time in Rome's history when
> the ludi were cancelled. Does anyone have an idea? I think Cordus
> said once, very rarely in event of a national emergency.
>
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Major TRP
>
> If my reasoning is "too emotional" for some
> > then so be it. I'm passionate about Nova Roma, and I'm tired of
> seeing it
> > fall down into the abyss of legalism.
> > Vale;
> > C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >
> > On 11/9/05, Diana Octavia Aventina <dianaaventina@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
>

M. Hortensia G. Equitio Catoni spd;
actually no, he was not within his rights.

We need to balance the harm and the good, Roman magistrates were not
obliged to follow explicitly laws. The harm is not honoring Iuppiter
Optimus Maximus and the tradition of the Ludi Plebeii versus
Albucius not checking with us (the tribs & there are 3 in agreement)
or writing to Serapio or the missing aedile. All of this was
possible. Instead he took the worst possible action, and did so
previously.

I would say using the power of intercessio twice to stop ludi which
have a religious significance is an important point.

Cato, I'm not saying Albucius is impious, I think he doesn't realize
that it is an impious thing to do. Though I told him the first time.
Very forecfully;-)

We need more education on the ML so cives and magistrates know more
about the Religio and Roman culture. Thank goodness the Ludi are
continuing. I'm grateful to Caius Curius Saturninus for stepping up
and honouring the gods and the Quirites.
vale
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP

>
> Salve et salvete.
>
> Hortensia Maior, as an ex-lawyer you *should* be very attuned to

the

> importance of obeying the law.
>
> If Albucius had questions about it he was certainly within his

rights

> to act, as I'm sure you would, as a tribune, if you thought the law
> was being broken --- as indeed, you have acted. You are falling

into

> the trap of questioning someone's motives because you dislike their
> actions. Remember what it was like to be on the *other* side of

the

> "impious" stick --- do not be too hasty to hit someone else with

it.

>
>
> Vale et valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
> > M. Hortensia G.Buteo Modiano spd;
> > as an ex-lawyer Gai Buteo I entirely agree with you!
> > This nit-picking is absurd as Aedile Serapio did warn us about

the

> > Ludi Plebeii, and Caius Curius Saturninus has the piety, the

will

> > and the experience to stage the games. I am more than happy to

help

> > him and Tribune Fuscus approved too.
> >
> > This is the 2nd time Tribune Albucius vetoed an aspect of the

games.

> > The first time was the Cultural award during the Megalesia.

Frankly

> > I see this as an interference preventing us with carrying out

the

> > Religio.
> >
> > I believe Pontiff Buteo our cives and magistrates need some
> > discussion of the religious nature of the games....
> >
> > I am trying to think of an historical time in Rome's history

when

> > the ludi were cancelled. Does anyone have an idea? I think

Cordus

> > said once, very rarely in event of a national emergency.
> >
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Major TRP
> >
> > If my reasoning is "too emotional" for some
> > > then so be it. I'm passionate about Nova Roma, and I'm tired

of

> > seeing it
> > > fall down into the abyss of legalism.
> > > Vale;
> > > C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > >
> > > On 11/9/05, Diana Octavia Aventina <dianaaventina@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>

Salve Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

BS (Barbara Streisand)

" Playing the devil's advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove secular dictatorships throughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box whose spirits will certainly come back to haunt us."

While Iraq, Syria and Egypt are secular "dictatorships" The ones in Saudi Arabia and Iran are decidedly Islamic fascist in nature. When a power removes a dictatorships it can and should impose limits on how that nation can reorganize its political life after dictatorship. From 1933 to 1945 Germany had a murderous, blood thirsty and demonic regime. The victors imposed limits on Germany to the point that they have now enjoyed 50 years of a democratic republic and with the sale of any Nazi items or books being banned.

The same can be done to any nation in the middle east to restrict and retard the establishment of decidedly Islamic fascist regimes.

The establish of democratic, secular and market oriented regimes in the middle east or over the planet will reduce the numbers of wars and will increase trade. Which in turn will increase wealth across the world.


Democratic, secular and capitalist three ideas who time has come.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Licinius Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris


Salve Pauline,

Hear, hear! I totally agree with your post- and, inparticular, the
passage I have quoted. I've been keeping an eye on ME events for some
years, and I think that- far from being a mere devil's advocate
position- your opinion is spot on.

> Playing the devil's advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove
> secular dictatorships
> thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box whose spirits
> will certainly come back to haunt us.


Let us hope that our macroworld leaders will come to see this as well!

Vale bene,

Gaius Licinius Crassus

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

> Salve Crasse,
>
> Good points. As I mentioned on another post earlier this year,
> Bernard Lewis (What Went Wrong?) also mentions the fact that Islam
> had been doing so well from its rise to througout the middle ages
> but after western technology, especially military, began to overtake
> them from the age of exploration onwards they, especially the
> Ottoman Empire, tried to implement change. Losing ground and
> territory in Eastern Europe they began adopting western military
> customs, attitudes, dress, ideas and all. This eventually was passed
> down to the civilian population who adapted fairly well in their
> westernization. Now there was still the rest of the Arab world but
> the Ottoman Turks were their bosses and didn't care about Arab
> opinion anyway.
>
> Some religious leaders wanting to stick to the old ways felt they
> were be chastized by Allah for abondoning their earlier ideas and
> ways of life. Losing war after war and eventually be colonized by
> France and England was, of course, their punishment. By the 1940's
> and 50's a new generation of more fanatical groups adhering to these
> ideas, came out of the closet and began to voice their ideas and
> stirring up the pot. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of
> middle eastern states have or had been very secular for many years.
> Leaders like Nassar, the Shah, the Syrian dictators, Algeria and
> even Saddam kept these fanatical people in their place by
> eliminating, exile them, or keeping them in concentration camps for
> many years. This sort of action kept them at bay but also made them
> all the more angrier, bitter and more resolved. Playing the devil's
> advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove secular dictatorships
> thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box
> whose spirits will certainly come back to haunt us.
>
> This whole scene of revivalism back to the old ways is nothing new
> or a symptom of Islam. How many TV evangelists do we see saying
> the "decadent" leaderships of North America and Europe allowing
> abortion to gay marriage, condoms in schools, money for those
> unwilling to work etc. will soon be bringing God's wrath upon us?
> I remember David Duke (KKK / NSP) did quite well in politics one
> year and imagine if his organizations ever got in power in even one
> state? Well slow but sure other fanatical groups in other parts of
> the world with their own radical agendas seem to be heading that way.
> Also much of the Old Testament taught lessons to its followers as to
> the consequences of falling off the straight and narrow path to God -
> you would lose your wars, homelands and become vassals of the pagan
> empires such as the Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Licinius Crassus
> <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> >
> > True, many Islamic nations and groups DO hate the West, but I do
> not
> > think the answer lies in religious differences- I believe the
> answer is
> > found in their response to the West's policies towards their
> nations
> > over the years. Think about it- pretty much all we've done is
> court them
> > for their oil...not because we want to 'spread democracy'
> or 'freedom'
> > or some such claptrap. If it weren't for their oil we wouldn't
> give them
> > the time of day, and they know it. Same thing with Middle Eastern
> nations; they get tired of being punked out for so long, sure they
> are going to snap- we just happen to
> > be the ones punking them out at the moment, so guess who gets the
> > crosshairs put on them....we do!
> >
> > Believe me, I have no love for terrorist groups no matter what
> stripe
> > they are- be they Islamic fundamentalist, KKK thugs, Christian
> > anti-abortionists, or whatever- a criminal is a criminal
> regardless of
> > his motives. Of course, they say one man's terrorist is another
> man's
> > freedom fighter, so I suppose in the end it remains for the
> winner to
> > write the final chapter.
> >
> > Crassus
> >
> > raymond fuentes wrote:
> >
> > > Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
> > > weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
> > > w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
> > > vice-versa
> > > --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Notice, though, how the majority of those in
> > > opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
> > > it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
> > > the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
> > > can't count the number of times I've read repeated
> > > "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
> > > certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
> > > and wisdom.
> > > >
> > > > No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the
> > > discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
> > > dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
> > > home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
> > > mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
> > > original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
> > > too, that this same principle applies equally as well
> > > to other discusions that have cropped up here
> > > recently.)
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > G Licinius Crassus
> > > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > > From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
> > > > Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> > > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > > Salve
> > > >
> > > > "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
> > > >
> > > > How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> > > not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> > > nations have very little or no interest in
> > > assimilating. Second and third generation British and
> > > French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
> > > France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
> > > time ago.
> > > >
> > > > You know what would help bring about a real movement
> > > toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
> > > announce that are going to support the building of
> > > churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
> > > Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
> > > openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
> > > Israel would be a given.
> > > >
> > > > Vale
> > > >
> > > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Gaius Licinius
> > > Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@b...>
> > > > To:
> > > Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > >
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> > > > Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was
> > > Pilate)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salve omnes,
> > > >
> > > > I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT
> > > necesarily
> > > > off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another
> > > thread of
> > > > Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this
> > > discussion reaches that
> > > > point, it's time to either put it to bed or move
> > > it to another forum.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who
> > > actually reside in
> > > > Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with
> > > current events from
> > > > first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU
> > > were Emperor,
> > > > would you want your reports from the provinces to
> > > come from
> > > > scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from
> > > someone who had actually
> > > > BEEN there to see what is happening?
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > G Licinius Crassus
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"
> > > <sbeer@n...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salvete!
> > > > > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this
> > > list serves as our "Forum
> > > > > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and
> > > visitors meet and talk
> > > > about
> > > > > everything. I am quite sure that on the original
> > > forum there were folks
> > > > > discussing politics, scandals, the best address
> > > to buy cloth or
> > > > wine, the
> > > > > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s
> > > broken leg or marriage
> > > > > problems - in short everything that is discussed
> > > everywhere when
> > > > people meet
> > > > >
> > > > > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is
> > > off topic.
> > > > > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what
> > > goes on where - some
> > > > might
> > > > > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > > > > Valete optime!
> > > > > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> > > > >
> > > > > -------Originalmeldung-------
> > > > >
> > > > > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > > > > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> > > === Message Truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > > S P Q R
> > >
> > > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> > >
> > > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > > Roman Citizen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve A. Apollonius Cordus

I do not disagree with any of your comments listed below but I want to make sure everyone understands
why I placed "citizen" in quotes.

These terrorist TOOK the benefits of a free, democratic and extremely open and decent society and
not only bit off the hand of the good people of Britain but KILLED their neighbors. They were citizens in name only.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus<mailto:a_apollonius_cordus@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris


A. Apollonius Ti. Galerio omnibusque sal.

I don't want to get into the main point of this
discussion because I know very little about Islam or
the history of the Islamic world, but I would just
like to comment briefly on your interesting
punctuation:

> How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> nations have very little or no interest in
> assimilating. Second and third generation British
> and French "citizens" are either burning down parts
> of France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a
> short time ago.

I urge you not to put "citizens" in quotation marks,
at least when referring to the bombers who attacked
London Transport in July. Those men were full, legal
citizens of the U.K., and indeed as I understand it
most if not all of them were born in Britain. It is
very important for Britons and others to understand
this.

Pretending that they were not really British, or that
they were not proper citizens, will only lead us to
miss the real nature of the problem. There is a
tendency in Britain for people to blame just about
every problem they can think of on immigrants. But
blaming immigrants for problems which are really
caused by native citizens will simply stop us solving
the problems.

It's true that many children and grandchildren of
immigrants, though themselves citizens of the U.K.,
have not shown much interest in thoroughly
"assimilating" themselves into British society, but
they cannot be entirely blamed for this, because they
were never really led to believe that they were
expected to do so. Until very recently the dominant
idea in Britain was that people should be allowed and
even encouraged to keep close ties with their
ancestral cultures. And it's hard to say with
confidence that that's such a bad idea. Do you fancy
the idea of being "assimilated"? It sounds pretty
unpleasant to me.

We are all Romans struggling to keep in touch with our
cultural inheritance in the midst of non-Romans. We
deliberately choose to assert and foster a distinct
cultural identity which is in contrast to the dominant
culture of our neighbours, although our neighbours'
culture is in many cases derived from our own. When
Romans went to settle in Hispania or in Africa or in
Germania, they didn't want to be "assimilated"; in
fact they encouraged their native neighbours to copy
*them*, and many did.

So I think we should have some sympathy for the idea
of keeping a distinct cultural identity alive in a
"foreign" place. If we believe that people should
completely adopt the culture of the place they live
in, why are you not abandoning all this silly Roman
stuff and contenting yourself with modern American
culture? Why am I not doing the same in Britain? Why
are we encouraging Africans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese,
Russians to adopt Roman culture when it is nothing to
do with the cultural heritage of their native lands?

The important thing is not cultural difference but
what we do about it. When a person makes cultural
difference an excuse to harm others, then there's
something wrong. I think it's important to say that
what the bombers in London did wrong was not to reject
British culture: they have a right to reject or accept
what they please. What they did wrong was to kill
innocent people. And, more than that, they did wrong
to attack the state which, whether they accept its
cultural background or not, has given them shelter and
protection just as it has given shelter and protection
to all its citizens. The fact that they were British
citizens makes their act *worse*, and that's another
reason we should emphasize that they were citizens.
But if we start thinking and suggesting that people
born in Britain to parents of British nationality are
not proper citizens simply because their parents or
grandparents came from somewhere else, or because they
speak poor English, or because they don't know the
name of the Prince of Wales, or because they don't eat
fish and chips, or because their skin isn't pale, or
because they're not members of the Church of England -
in short, if we make them feel like second-class
citizens in their own country - then they really will
have a legitimate grievance.

I know that this isn't what you yourself are saying,
but those little quotation-marks around the word
"citizens" is the beginning of the journey that leads
us to that conclusion, and it's not a conclusion which
will help anyone.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve my friend,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy P. Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...> wrote:

>
> Salve Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
> BS (Barbara Streisand)
>
>
> While Iraq, Syria and Egypt are secular "dictatorships" The ones

in Saudi Arabia and Iran are decidedly Islamic fascist in nature.
When a power removes a dictatorships it can and should impose limits
on how that nation can reorganize its political life after
dictatorship. From 1933 to 1945 Germany had a murderous, blood
thirsty and demonic regime. The victors imposed limits on Germany to
the point that they have now enjoyed 50 years of a democratic
republic and with the sale of any Nazi items or books being banned.

>

QSP As even the nazis grudgingly admitted, the English peoples were
much Like them and after they were gone our cultures and values
imposed on the country were western, capitalist and Christian in
West Germany. Nazism was a more or less a right wing reaction to the
threat of communism and its excesses mixed with that Social
Darwinism had cost the lives of so many. Removing that evil living
government did not alter the centuries long entrenched values,
beliefs and capitalistic way of the German people. By the way you
can own nazi memorabilia, music, books etc. in Germany. It just
cannot be played or sold publically and a lot of it is coming on to
the market after being hidden in former East Germany for many years.
Some Germans I know have whined that the North American got all the
good stuff over the last 60 years.

> The same can be done to any nation in the middle east to restrict

and retard the establishment of decidedly Islamic fascist regimes.

>

QSP - So how? Hitler was a living entity in our times and proved to
be quite mortal. The world saw his achievments, then his evil deeds
mistakes, and death. After shooting himself he wasn't ressurected.
Muhammed was a big profit and supposedly was taken up directly to
heaven like Elijah. How does one quash the ideas of these theocratic
regimes without insulting the people or creating an uproar after
trying to show that many of the harsh ideas spouted by the leaders
are only tribal, not from God and that perhaps Muhammed was one of
the false prophets warned about that took so many down the garden
path?

> The establish of democratic, secular and market oriented regimes

in the middle east or over the planet will reduce the numbers of
wars and will increase trade. Which in turn will increase wealth
across the world.

>

QSP - I do not think so. Part of the world we live in comes from the
ideas and ideals of ancient Greece and Rome. Much of the rest of the
world see values and their own unique philosophies in other ways and
do not care for our type of democracy. For example, if you take
courses in African history, you will see that the people over much
of the continent like the tribal systems on all levels where you
have one man, one vote... but not in the way we think. Our systems
were imposed on them and look at the mess and confusion. Look at the
problems in Russia and the former Soviet Union now with the internal
strife, power of the Mafia etc. Now that China is evolving toward
democracy and capitalism they are almost in a trade war status and
workers, governors and primiers in America are howling like banshees
about how hard done by the workers are here by that country. As
mentioned before, if all countries of the world had all the same
governments and trade syatems there would still be strife and war.


Like the sci-fi writer Poul Anderson wrote in his "Polytechnic
League" series:

"Politics, they come and go but greed goes on forever!"

>
> Democratic, secular and capitalist three ideas who time has come.
>
>

QSP - Ah, Tiberi, but mark my words about Pamdora's box. So have I
said, so have I written.

> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gaius Licinius Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@b...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
>
>
> Salve Pauline,
>
> Hear, hear! I totally agree with your post- and, inparticular,

the

> passage I have quoted. I've been keeping an eye on ME events for

some

> years, and I think that- far from being a mere devil's advocate
> position- your opinion is spot on.
>
> > Playing the devil's advocate, in my opinion, by trying to

remove

> > secular dictatorships
> > thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box whose

spirits

> > will certainly come back to haunt us.
>
>
> Let us hope that our macroworld leaders will come to see this as

well!

>
> Vale bene,
>
> Gaius Licinius Crassus
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:
>
> > Salve Crasse,
> >
> > Good points. As I mentioned on another post earlier this year,
> > Bernard Lewis (What Went Wrong?) also mentions the fact that

Islam

> > had been doing so well from its rise to througout the middle

ages

> > but after western technology, especially military, began to

overtake

> > them from the age of exploration onwards they, especially the
> > Ottoman Empire, tried to implement change. Losing ground and
> > territory in Eastern Europe they began adopting western

military

> > customs, attitudes, dress, ideas and all. This eventually was

passed

> > down to the civilian population who adapted fairly well in

their

> > westernization. Now there was still the rest of the Arab world

but

> > the Ottoman Turks were their bosses and didn't care about Arab
> > opinion anyway.
> >
> > Some religious leaders wanting to stick to the old ways felt

they

> > were be chastized by Allah for abondoning their earlier ideas

and

> > ways of life. Losing war after war and eventually be colonized

by

> > France and England was, of course, their punishment. By the

1940's

> > and 50's a new generation of more fanatical groups adhering to

these

> > ideas, came out of the closet and began to voice their ideas

and

> > stirring up the pot. Contrary to popular belief, the majority

of

> > middle eastern states have or had been very secular for many

years.

> > Leaders like Nassar, the Shah, the Syrian dictators, Algeria

and

> > even Saddam kept these fanatical people in their place by
> > eliminating, exile them, or keeping them in concentration

camps for

> > many years. This sort of action kept them at bay but also made

them

> > all the more angrier, bitter and more resolved. Playing the

devil's

> > advocate, in my opinion, by trying to remove secular

dictatorships

> > thoughout that area has and will open a Pandora's box
> > whose spirits will certainly come back to haunt us.
> >
> > This whole scene of revivalism back to the old ways is nothing

new

> > or a symptom of Islam. How many TV evangelists do we see saying
> > the "decadent" leaderships of North America and Europe allowing
> > abortion to gay marriage, condoms in schools, money for those
> > unwilling to work etc. will soon be bringing God's wrath upon

us?

> > I remember David Duke (KKK / NSP) did quite well in politics

one

> > year and imagine if his organizations ever got in power in

even one

> > state? Well slow but sure other fanatical groups in other

parts of

> > the world with their own radical agendas seem to be heading

that way.

> > Also much of the Old Testament taught lessons to its followers

as to

> > the consequences of falling off the straight and narrow path

to God -

> > you would lose your wars, homelands and become vassals of the

pagan

> > empires such as the Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Licinius Crassus
> > <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> > >
> > > True, many Islamic nations and groups DO hate the West, but

I do

> > not
> > > think the answer lies in religious differences- I believe the
> > answer is
> > > found in their response to the West's policies towards their
> > nations
> > > over the years. Think about it- pretty much all we've done is
> > court them
> > > for their oil...not because we want to 'spread democracy'
> > or 'freedom'
> > > or some such claptrap. If it weren't for their oil we

wouldn't

> > give them
> > > the time of day, and they know it. Same thing with Middle

Eastern

> > nations; they get tired of being punked out for so long, sure

they

> > are going to snap- we just happen to
> > > be the ones punking them out at the moment, so guess who

gets the

> > > crosshairs put on them....we do!
> > >
> > > Believe me, I have no love for terrorist groups no matter

what

> > stripe
> > > they are- be they Islamic fundamentalist, KKK thugs,

Christian

> > > anti-abortionists, or whatever- a criminal is a criminal
> > regardless of
> > > his motives. Of course, they say one man's terrorist is

another

> > man's
> > > freedom fighter, so I suppose in the end it remains for the
> > winner to
> > > write the final chapter.
> > >
> > > Crassus
> > >
> > > raymond fuentes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hate is simple & like terrorism,a weapon of the
> > > > weak.Im glad to live in NY where I can rub shoulders
> > > > w/all but I KNOW Islam hates the West more than
> > > > vice-versa
> > > > --- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > > > <glcrassus@b...> wrote:
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > >
> > > > > Notice, though, how the majority of those in
> > > > opposition to the Islamic faith simply gather up all
> > > > it's adherents into one bag and summarily pronounce
> > > > the entire mass as a pack of murdering fanatics. I
> > > > can't count the number of times I've read repeated
> > > > "kill'em all" comments- not on this board, but
> > > > certainly on others whose members are lacking in tact
> > > > and wisdom.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, my meaning was simply to avoid having the
> > > > discussion turn from exploring the various avenues to
> > > > dealing with this problem into a mindless round of
> > > > home-grown intolerance. It's easy to toss out hate
> > > > mail, but much harder to actually come up with an
> > > > original idea that might help things a bit. (Notice,
> > > > too, that this same principle applies equally as well
> > > > to other discusions that have cropped up here
> > > > recently.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale,
> > > > >
> > > > > G Licinius Crassus
> > > > >
> > > >

============================================================

> > > > > From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
> > > > > Date: 2005/11/08 Tue PM 05:19:57 CST
> > > > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >

============================================================

> > > > > Salve
> > > > >
> > > > > "just another thread of Islam-bashing"
> > > > >
> > > > > How is it Islam-bashing to point out that a large (
> > > > not all) percent of immigrants from Arab or Muslim
> > > > nations have very little or no interest in
> > > > assimilating. Second and third generation British and
> > > > French "citizens" are either burning down parts of
> > > > France as we speak or bombed Great Britain a short
> > > > time ago.
> > > > >
> > > > > You know what would help bring about a real movement
> > > > toward peace on earth would be for the Saudis to
> > > > announce that are going to support the building of
> > > > churches and synagogues next to every mosque in Saudi
> > > > Arabia and that every person who visits SA is FREE to
> > > > openly practice their religion. Saudi recognition of
> > > > Israel would be a given.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale
> > > > >
> > > > > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Gaius Licinius
> > > > Crassus<mailto:glcrassus@b...>
> > > > > To:
> > > > Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:58 AM
> > > > > Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Paris (was
> > > > Pilate)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve omnes,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that the subject of the Paris riots is NOT
> > > > necesarily
> > > > > off-topic- unless it degenerates into just another
> > > > thread of
> > > > > Islam-bashing or some such nonsense. When this
> > > > discussion reaches that
> > > > > point, it's time to either put it to bed or move
> > > > it to another forum.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, though, as we have Citizens who
> > > > actually reside in
> > > > > Gallia it would be amiss of us NOT to keep up with
> > > > current events from
> > > > > first-hand observers. Think of it this way- if YOU
> > > > were Emperor,
> > > > > would you want your reports from the provinces to
> > > > come from
> > > > > scandal-mongers in the neighborhoods, or from
> > > > someone who had actually
> > > > > BEEN there to see what is happening?
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > >
> > > > > G Licinius Crassus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stefanie Beer"
> > > > <sbeer@n...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete!
> > > > > > Why is this "off topic"? As far as I know this
> > > > list serves as our "Forum
> > > > > > Romanum" a place where all Roman citizens and
> > > > visitors meet and talk
> > > > > about
> > > > > > everything. I am quite sure that on the original
> > > > forum there were folks
> > > > > > discussing politics, scandals, the best address
> > > > to buy cloth or
> > > > > wine, the
> > > > > > latest games or races, their next neighbour´s
> > > > broken leg or marriage
> > > > > > problems - in short everything that is discussed
> > > > everywhere when
> > > > > people meet
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is why I don´t think the Paris situation is
> > > > off topic.
> > > > > > (Plus the fact that I´m very interested in what
> > > > goes on where - some
> > > > > might
> > > > > > call it nosey, other typically female;-))
> > > > > > Valete optime!
> > > > > > Lucia Flavia Lectrix
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -------Originalmeldung-------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Von: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> > > > > > Datum: 11/06/05 10:53:07
> > > > === Message Truncated ===
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > S P Q R
> > > >
> > > > Fidelis Ad Mortem.
> > > >
> > > > Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> > > > Roman Citizen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Ancient history
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Ancient+history&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+roman+empire
&w3=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=103&.sig=fjrrf
WGmNj-9VzE29-5RqQ<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Ancient+history&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+roman+empire
&w3=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=103&.sig=fjrrf
WGmNj-9VzE29-5RqQ>>

> > Fall of the roman empire
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+rom
an+empire&w3=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=103&.
sig=o-616ER_E9HbAgY7S7bgGA<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+rom
an+empire&w3=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=103&.
sig=o-616ER_E9HbAgY7S7bgGA>>

> > The fall of the roman empire
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the
+roman+empire&w3=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=1
03&.sig=3ssQInnLWGqC1FVNATfGNQ<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the
+roman+empire&w3=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=1
03&.sig=3ssQInnLWGqC1FVNATfGNQ>>

> >
> > Roman empire
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w3
=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=103&.sig=JnsqrFDC
8rUYfVpJVe3Qiw<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w3
=The+fall+of+the+roman+empire&w4=Roman+empire&c=4&s=103&.sig=JnsqrFDC
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t=ms&k=Roman+empire&w1=Ancient+history&w2=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w3
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