Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Dec 7-11, 2005

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40420 From: Richard Sciarappa Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40421 From: lucius_fidelius Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40422 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40423 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40424 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Yet another view
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40425 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40426 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: NR-The Religio was first, but we adapted, compromised, and evolved.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40427 From: Daniel Dreesbach Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Yet another view
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40428 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: A comment on fraternal organizations
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40429 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: To my brethren on the NR ML
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40430 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40431 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: a.d. VII Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40432 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR (QFM)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40433 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40434 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40435 From: Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40436 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: WE MUST BE CLEAR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40437 From: rocknrockabilly Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: The Religio in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40438 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: WE MUST BE CLEAR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40439 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40440 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40441 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40442 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40443 From: os390account Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40444 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: I DON'T AGREE...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40445 From: CN•EQVIT•MARINVS (Gnaeus Equitius Mari Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40446 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40448 From: lucius_fidelius Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: The Religio in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40449 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Religion in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40450 From: Tom Fuller Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Salve Romanai!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40451 From: jeff hennessy Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2238
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40452 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2238
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40453 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40454 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40455 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Magister Aranearius - Appointment of Scribae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40456 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40457 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40458 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40459 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40460 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40461 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40462 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40463 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40464 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: a.d. VI Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40465 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40466 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40467 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Salve Romanai!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40468 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40469 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40470 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40471 From: annia@ciarin.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40472 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR (QFM)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40473 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40474 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR (QFM)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40475 From: marcushoratius Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: SPAM: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40476 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40477 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Revised Proposal for Magisterial Resignations
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40478 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40479 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: AGREED, MAXIMUS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40480 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40481 From: os390account Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40482 From: marcushoratius Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40483 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Heathenry, Paganism, NR (I changed the thread title)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40484 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Heathenry, Paganism, NR (I changed the thread title)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40485 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Heathenry, Paganism, NR (I changed the thread title)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40486 From: vespasian72001 Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Project Provinciae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40487 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: A whole bunch of stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40488 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Revised Proposal for Magisterial Resignations
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40489 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40490 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40491 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40492 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40493 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40494 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40495 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40496 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Fwd: [SodalitasMilitarium] Romas police et al.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40497 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Fwd: [SodalitasMilitarium] Romas police et al.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40498 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40499 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: [SodalitasMilitarium] Romas police et al.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40500 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40501 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Dear Santa...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40502 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40503 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40504 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40505 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Dear Santa...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40506 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: a.d. V Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40507 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (copy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40508 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40509 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40510 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40511 From: Tim Gallagher Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40512 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40513 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40514 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES - WITHDRAWAL of Hon. BIANC
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40515 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40516 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40517 From: FAC Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: The Comitia Populi Tributa is called
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40518 From: FAC Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: The Comitia Centuriata is called
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40519 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called: Warning
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40520 From: Ian McKay Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: "RomanTimes," "Pilum," Nova Britannia -- Oct. / Nov. / Dec. Quarter
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40521 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called: Warning
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40522 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40523 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40524 From: FAC Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called: Warning
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40525 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40526 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40527 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40528 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40529 From: jrosemary@comcast.net Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40530 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40531 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40532 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40533 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Endorsements for the CPT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40534 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40535 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40536 From: Maior Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40537 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40538 From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40539 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Populi Tributa is called
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40540 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40541 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40542 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40543 From: lucius_fidelius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40544 From: Maior Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40545 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: (OT)SETI@home
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40546 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40547 From: Tim Gallagher Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Question about the LEX APULA DE TRIBUTIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40548 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Endorsements for the CPT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40549 From: Timothy P. Gallagher Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40550 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: ENDORSEMENTS FOR THE CPT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40551 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Endorsements for the CPT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40552 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: a.d. IV Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40553 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40554 From: G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Small Saturnalia GGift
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40555 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40556 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40557 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40558 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40559 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40560 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: In legem Apulam de tributis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40561 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Popillia, in legem Apulam de magistratuum ejuratione
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40562 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: In legem Juliam de foro et moderatione
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40563 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Fabia de nominibus approbationibusque
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40564 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40565 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40566 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Popillia senatoria
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40567 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Apula nomine "Constitutional Amendment #1"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40568 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40569 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Apula nomine "Constitutional Amendment #2"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40570 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Apula de magistro araneario
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40571 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: In legem Apulam de assiduis et capite censis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40572 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: De legibus: summary
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40573 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Flamen Dialis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40574 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40575 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40576 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Flamen Dialis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40577 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Century realignment and new Tribal assignments done
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40578 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Comitia Centuriata Candidates
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40579 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Flamen Dialis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40580 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40581 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40582 From: Lucius Servulius Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40583 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40584 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40585 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: URGENT!!!!!!!! -- MISTAKE!!!!!!!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40586 From: Tim Gallagher Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Some Proposed Laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40587 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Question on Proposed Laws
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40588 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Endorsements for the CPT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40589 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40590 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40591 From: Lucius Servilius Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40592 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Voting
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40593 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40594 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Venator for Diribitor!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40595 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40596 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-11
Subject: Re: New Endeavor



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40420 From: Richard Sciarappa Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete omnes,

The Religio Romana brought me to Nova Roma.
I believe that the Religio is of the utmost importance.
Let more pagans, like myself, be attracted to Nova Roma
because of this...
May the Gods of Rome be honored.

PAX DEORUM

Lucius Cassius Cornutus




-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Hucke <hucke@...>
Sent: Dec 7, 2005 10:25 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Salve Marce Cassi,

> If you have your wish NR will be doomed to always stay quite small, only attracting "pagans".

Let it!  I prefer quality over quantity.   I'm not intersted in building an "empire" or
a "micronation"; there are far too many of the former, and the latter is just a game.

I learned of Nova Roma in 1998 when Decius Iunius Palladius posted a message to
the newsgroup soc.religion.paganism.  As I was already attracted to the Roman gods,
this was a wonderful opportunity; I mailed in my application a few hours later
(in those days you had to print it and put a stamp on it; there was no website
application).  There was no question at the time that NR was primarily religious
in focus, and proudly "pagan".

Since then, the politics and pursuit of vendettas has eclipsed our true purpose.

> It was not the Roman religion that made people want to be part of the Empire, it was
> the laws, the commerce, the engineering, the Pax Romana, the roads, the freedoms, etc.

Roads, laws, etc., are readily available now in most countries; there's no need for us
to offer those (we can't afford roads, and our laws are a mess).  We offer the Gods.

Vale, Octavius.

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40421 From: lucius_fidelius Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete Omnes,

From the usual collection of posts, I specifically choose what I see
to be the most honest on the topic, the text on the website
notwithstanding. What I do disagree with is the anti-pagan paper-
tiger that is so often trotted out. The website is obviously
intentional in it's wording to dissuade anyone who might be offended
by paganism and I'm fairly certain that it's successful. Perhaps it
is such a mentality that maintains the mention of "family values" on
the NR index page- which is unfortunate since such an expression is
dated at best. And it seems the idea of being repelled by paganism is
of similar vintage.

The point of my post, and one I don't hear very often, is perhaps a
little illumination on why members are retained at the level they are
and I believe it plays into the very identity of the organization
itself. It is a pagan organization that has a nebulous quality of
portraying itself as a secular organization when that will serve it.
Clearly, to anyone with experience here, it is a pagan organization-
and members, if they don't already understand it, will learn that
this concern will override every other concern. Case in point-
legislative protections not being in effect as discussed so very
recently. Has anyone considered the character and function of the
people who do have secure protection under systems as they are? I'm
sure many have though have not spoken of it.

So the clearest thing of all is that Nova Roma is a pagan
organization, it is everything else that is in question. As long as
that doesn't matter, we can expect more of the same development in
it's membership- so many with a secular and historical interest in
Roma Antiqua and interest in religion of any kind on the wane. The
website introduces new members to a broadly defined Romanitas, yet
once involved, members are faced with increasingly narrow definitions
of what Nova Roma is that can only be understood in terms of modern
paganism, and most probably, modern American socio-religious
politics. As these become less relevant in a rapidly secularizing and
pluralizing world, so will organizations dependent on them.

Valete.

L. Fidelius Graecus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Matt Hucke <hucke@c...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Sensei Phil Perez wrote:
>
> > > I think that first impression turns people off, who otherwise
would join and contribute.
>
> > You are so right. It almost kept me from joining.
>
> But what if it said "We are more than a Christian religious
organization,
> although we are that, too"? Would you still think of NR as
cultlike ?
>
> There is nothing wrong with the word "pagan". We have to stand
proud and reclaim it
> from those who look down on us.
>
> Frankly, if anyone is repelled by the thought of associating with
pagans, we're better
> off without them.
>
> Nova Roma is, first and foremost, a religious organization. All
else - the politicking,
> role-playing, law-playing - is a distraction, and should never
eclipse what we were
> intended to be.
>
> Valéte, Octavius.
>
> --
> hucke@c...
> http://www.graveyards.com
>
> "The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
> voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40422 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Diana

No problem, little sister. What are distinguished, older uncles for if not to cause brain activity among the young (at heart).

FGA aka Uncle Padruig

-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Aventina <dianaaventina@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:25:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Why people quit NR


Salvete Marinus, Marcus Sejanus Marcellus and our
Uncle Padruig :-),

I expected to get verbally trashed, so I would like to
thank you 3 gentlemen for your constructive responses.
You all gave me a few things to think about.

Valete,
Diana





__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40423 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
F. Galerius Aurelianus Cn. Equito Marino. Salve.

"See above about changing to a codex. As it is right now, the only way to
change a law is to encode the change within a new law."

This is exactly what I am talking about. Why does Nova Roma need such a system instead of just amending the current law's language or purpose (apart from getting a magistrate's name on the new law). Seems to me, Nova Roma ought to just appoint a comittee by acclaimation to rewrite/revise the laws absolutely necessary to running our organization and establish those as our 12 Tablets (so to speak) without reference to who originally proposed or passed it; then dump all the extraneous laws into an e-file marked "historical documents-no longer in force." One of those revisions should include something stating that you can change the language of an existing law WITHOUT writing a new law.

Salvete.

-----Original Message-----
From: CN•EQVIT•MARINVS (Gnaeus Equitius Marinus) <gawne@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:34:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Why people quit NR


Salve F. Galeri, et salvete omnes,

I'm just going to address a couple of points that were raised.

F. Galerius Aurelianus writes:

> ... To be frank, I believe that we have far too many rules (or leges)

Tribune Fuscus offered an idea for streamlining things over a year ago,
suggesting that we adopt a codex of laws in the style of the Principate. If
you actually look at the text of our currently effective laws, there's not
all that much to them. It's the fact that we have to promulgate new laws in
order to amend any previous law that has led to the proliferation of leges.

I think the idea is worth serious consideration. The tabularium is difficult
to navigate even for those who are familiar with it.

[...]
> While I have highest regard for Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, his lex on the
> Socii is a waste of effort. I believe that we would be better served to
> revise the census law to simply read that if any citizen does not respond
> to the census within the designated period, that person's name and all
> other information are stricken from Nova Roma's rolls along with any and
> all offices that are held by that person.

This, of course, would require another law... I think we're doing pretty well
with the current census law. It gives us a census every two years, and it
does eventually drop the inactive citizens out of the album civium.

> I also have a high regard for Marinus but he also promulgated many laws
> that could have avoided if Nova Roma would just revise the language of an
> existing law rather than creating an entirely new one.

See above about changing to a codex. As it is right now, the only way to
change a law is to encode the change within a new law.

Vale, et valete,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40424 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Yet another view
Salvette Omnes,

It seems that we once again have found a conversational battle that
will most likely end up as a phyrric victory. As I sit here and
read the posts, I see everyones side, and everyone makes a good
point in their argument. But perhaps we have forgotten one thing,
Senatus Populusque Romani. Aren't we all supposed to be dealing
with issues that deal with the masses. In my opinion (for which I
know I will get verbally thrashed and re-educated) Rome was driven
by three elements, Religion, Territorial Expansion, and greed.
Since we as Nova Romans really have no sustaining income, that rules
out greed. Myself and others like me who portray the military
aspect are in no way capable of starting a defensive war with even
the boy scouts (stupid archery merit badge). So that leaves us with
Religion. Religion was tied closely with the political aspect, so
really no separation of church and state. As Rome grew in power and
territories, it brought back with her new ideas, cultures and
religions. Even in Rome herself was an obelisk of Egyptian design.
I found it hard to believe that every soldier in Caesars Gallic
legions prayed to the Roman gods.

So with that being said, we should yes have a pantheon of Roman
gods, but we should also understand that there will be those who do
not quite agree with it, just as it was 2000 years ago. Rome
assilmilated cultures, and thats what made her great. By granting
citizenship rather that destroying, it made allies, not servants.
We must look to different avenues for those who may not agree with
us religiously. As I have stated before, I am not a politician, but
I have the benefit of having lost faith in alot of things due to the
atrocities witnessed by man kind (mass graves of milosevic's ethnic
cleansing). To me Nova Roma has stood as something I could believe
in, something that harkened back to a day simpler and more
spectacular.

Marcus Sejanus Marcellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40425 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

I take offense to: "Believe me, you are not the only Nova Roman living in
this "double life" which is akin to living a Lie." And no, I do not find it
hypocritical to kiss the Bible as a sign if oaths, etc... I respect the
Bible as a sacred text, just as I would show honor to the Quran, or the
Talmud, or the Bagavad Gita. I happen to have respect and tolerance for
peaple of all faiths, and see the Bible in the lodge room as a symbol -- of
which I will not go into here.

From the Grand Lodge of Ohio website:

Application for membership is open to men who:

- Have been an Ohio resident for at least one year
- Are at least 19 years old
- Have a belief in a Supreme Being
- Live a good moral and social life
- Do not advocate the overthrow of the government
- Can read and write English
- Are recommended by two members of the Lodge they wish to join. (If
you do not know two members of a Lodge, the secretary of the Lodge to which
you are applying can arrange a meeting with two members of the Lodge for you
.)

From the Grand Lodge of Maine website:

"The only religious requirement is that candidates believe in the Supreme
Being. If you can in good faith profess a belief in the Supreme Being, you
are eligible to be a Mason. No atheists will ever knowingly be made a Mason.
There are Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Mormon), Jewish, and Muslim
Masons. It would be tedious and pointless to go into a religion-by-religion
(and then denomination-by-denomination) discussion. The key points to
remember are the requirement of belief in the Supreme Being and the fact
that Masonry is a fraternity, not a religion."

Freemasonry does not mandate belief in a single divinity as you would
promote. It does, however, mandate belief in a Supreme Being - Great
Architect of the Universe. Might I remind you that there are Hindu Masons,
and Hinduism is a polytheistic faith. The FACT that my definition of
Supreme Being is different than yours is irrelevant.

You stated:

"So, I'm curios, why don't you have the courage to come out of the closet
with this information in your Lodge? Are you afraid of the ramifications?"

I do not hide my beliefs and opinions from my brothers in lodge. On the
other hand, we don't typically preach to one another. Anyone who asks me
about my beliefs will get an honest opinion, to do otherwise would not be
"on the level, and by the square."

"If the Lodge accepts it and you, they in turn would lose their legal
affiliation, would they not? How could they not?"

Are you such a fool to believe this? Lose thier affiliation with whom? The
Grand Lodge?

"The oaths you swore are meaningless without believing in the book you swore
them on!"

This is completely false. It is a matter of opinion. When I joined DeMolay
years ago I was asked if wanted to swear my oath on another text other than
the Bible. I opted not to, and prefered to use the Bible as everyone else
was doing. Sacred texts are just that sacred, and it is that symbolism that
is important.

"Without belief in a "Single Deity" there is no Freemasonry."

See above.

I know several Pagans within Masonry, there are more of us than you think.
I know two in Nova Roma, including one of our founders Marcus Cassius
Julianus. When you interview Cassius why don't you ask him about "living a
lie," and see if he too isn't offended.

If you would like to contact my lodge please feel free to contact the Grand
Lodge of Ohio. I belong to Harmony Lodge #8 in Urbana, Ohio. By all means,
contact them and tell them whatever you like. I have nothing to hide.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Modianus,
>
> I too am a master mason and up here in Maine we are growing rather well.
> Although overall you are quite correct, fraternal orders are in decline.
> This new age of warfare is changing things though. People are rediscovering
> their faith and their relationships with their neighbors. One question
> though, as a "pagan" don't you find it to be a bit hypocritical to kiss the
> Christian Bible in your lodge, or do you attend a "pagan" lodge (which I
> cannot believe exists) since it is in direct opposition to the Masonic
> belief in One God, the name you use is not important but the belief in One
> Deity is NOT up for discussion there! Do you just keep your "pagan" believes
> a secret from your brethren? If you do, then how can you be so "proud" of it
> here? How can this be, are you a "flipflopper".
>
> Believe me, you are not the only Nova Roman living in this "double life"
> which is akin to living a Lie. Most Nova Romans would indeed be surprised at
> how many Freemasons there are within our midst that are also heavily
> involved in the Religio. It is none of my business so I will not "out"
> anybody. You have just done so for yourself in order to make your point.
> So, I'm curios, why don't you have the courage to come out of the closet
> with this information in your Lodge? Are you afraid of the ramifications? If
> the Lodge accepts it and you, they in turn would lose their legal
> affiliation, would they not? How could they not? The oaths you swore are
> meaningless without believing in the book you swore them on! Again, I may be
> using words here that may seem offensive but I am not trying to offend you
> my friend I just want to know so I can understand where you are coming from
> better.
>
> Without belief in a "Single Deity" there is no Freemasonry. How can you
> call yourself a Freemason and not believe in its most profound tenet? AND
> take solemn oaths based on this non-negotiable tenet.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Kling
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
>
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit
>
> This is a flimsy argument to say the least!
>
> As a Mason, and a lodge officer (Senior Deacon) I am probably the
> youngest
> active member of my lodge or close to it at 35. The average age of
> Masons
> in Ohio is 65. If Masonry is not careful, it will find itself extinct.
> Fraternal orders as a whole are suffering. Masonry is not larger
> because it
> "allows anyone," while the Knights of Columbus only allows Catholics.
> Fraternal orders accross the board are suffering: International Order
> of
> Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, Masonry, etc... They are all
> suffering.
>
> However, I am not sure I follow your reasoning below. What exactly are
> you
> advocating?
>
> The Religio Romana of Nova Roma is NOT going away, and it is not going
> to be
> relegated to some hidden location on the website. If doing so WOULD
> help
> Nova Roma grow, then it has no need to grow. Without the Pax Deorum
> there
> is no Nova Roma.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Octavio,
> >
> > Perhaps this is why the Knights of Columbus is a dying organization
> and
> > the Freemasons are making a big comeback. Religion is a very great
> aspect of
> > both. But the Freemasons are much more inclusive and do not discuss
> religion
> > (or politics) at all in a lodge. You can be a Catholic and be a
> Freemason,
> > or Jewish or Muslim, etc. But you have to be a Catholic to be KOC.
> Which
> > organization can do greater things for their communities, a large one
> or a
> > small one. Would you like NR to stay as a tiny community of likeminded
> > individuals proselytizing one religion. Or would you prefer for it to
> be
> > inviting to all and grow, grow and grow while still upholding the
> Religio as
> > an integral part of its make-up.
> >
> > Vires et honos,
> > Marcus Cassius Philippus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40426 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: NR-The Religio was first, but we adapted, compromised, and evolved.
F. Galerius Aurelianus flamen Cerealis S.P.D.

NR was founded as an organization to help aid the revival of the Religio Romana but it has changed; some for the better and some not. The majority of our citizens are not practitioners of the Religio but they should be aware that it is the official religion of your organization and they are required to show respect for the Gods and the rites of the Religio. This is especially true for the magistrates who must show public piety even if they hold other beliefs in the repository of their soul.
There was a time when the word cult did not have a negative aspect and the word pagan simply meant that you were from a rural area. Times change, words change, and the meanings of words change even if the word remains the same.
I have no problem with citizens who are Christian, Jewish, Samaritan, Moslem, Buddhist, or any other faith because I consider them as citizens of our community first on the ML and everything else is secondary.
If one professes belief in a supreme being as G-O-D, or Creator, or Maker; then one should consider their GOD as all powerful and without limitation. If GOD is without limitation and cannot be bound by human (or any other species) laws of contradiction, then it follows that, with GOD all things are possible. If all things are possible with GOD, then no one is wrong in whatever faith or practice anyone holds to with GOD. This is, of course, a personal viewpoint of my own faith.
NR is now more than just an organization that was founded for the purpose of reviving the Religio and I hope that it continues to evolve but the Religio is as integral to NR as it was to Old Rome.

Valete.

-----Original Message-----
From: albmd323232 <albmd32@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:31:38 -0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Salve,

I do not want a flame war, but I respectfully disagree with that
assessment. Although the religio is important to NR, I think it is
more a social, political, historical, and creative organization than
religious. Even the postings in the main list are normally along
those lines, with its wide array of topics. (Im also a member of 3
religio lists, by the way.) I dont think most people who stumble on
the website have anything against associating with pagans, with
perhaps the exception of those who saw the movie "dragnet," but the
first impression of the site is that it is primarily a religious
pagan group, and many people dont want to change religions,
especially to a small one that is not well known today. Ive shown the
site to a number of people close to me, and that was everyones first
reaction. Once I described NR more, they were more sympathetic. It
doesnt have anything to do specifically with being pagan or
christian, just with indirectly stating on the website its primarily
a religious organization, which I dont think is totally accurate, and
is not a favorable first impression to some.

Vale,
D. Claudius Aquilius Germanicus

> Frankly, if anyone is repelled by the thought of associating with
pagans, we're better
> off without them.
>
> Nova Roma is, first and foremost, a religious organization. All
else - the politicking,
> role-playing, law-playing - is a distraction, and should never
eclipse what we were
> intended to be.









Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40427 From: Daniel Dreesbach Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Yet another view
The wars we wage could done in other means than with weaposn that
kill. We could hold competitions in which we see who can raise the
most funds for hurrican victims for example. The one who raises
the most comes out as the victor.

Gaius Geminius Germanus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "legio_vi_tribunis"
<legio_vi_tribunis@y...> wrote:
>
> Salvette Omnes,
>
> It seems that we once again have found a conversational battle
that
> will most likely end up as a phyrric victory. As I sit here and
> read the posts, I see everyones side, and everyone makes a good
> point in their argument. But perhaps we have forgotten one thing,
> Senatus Populusque Romani. Aren't we all supposed to be dealing
> with issues that deal with the masses. In my opinion (for which I
> know I will get verbally thrashed and re-educated) Rome was driven
> by three elements, Religion, Territorial Expansion, and greed.
> Since we as Nova Romans really have no sustaining income, that
rules
> out greed. Myself and others like me who portray the military
> aspect are in no way capable of starting a defensive war with even
> the boy scouts (stupid archery merit badge). So that leaves us
with
> Religion. Religion was tied closely with the political aspect, so
> really no separation of church and state. As Rome grew in power
and
> territories, it brought back with her new ideas, cultures and
> religions. Even in Rome herself was an obelisk of Egyptian
design.
> I found it hard to believe that every soldier in Caesars Gallic
> legions prayed to the Roman gods.
>
> So with that being said, we should yes have a pantheon of Roman
> gods, but we should also understand that there will be those who
do
> not quite agree with it, just as it was 2000 years ago. Rome
> assilmilated cultures, and thats what made her great. By granting
> citizenship rather that destroying, it made allies, not servants.
> We must look to different avenues for those who may not agree with
> us religiously. As I have stated before, I am not a politician,
but
> I have the benefit of having lost faith in alot of things due to
the
> atrocities witnessed by man kind (mass graves of milosevic's
ethnic
> cleansing). To me Nova Roma has stood as something I could
believe
> in, something that harkened back to a day simpler and more
> spectacular.
>
> Marcus Sejanus Marcellus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40428 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: A comment on fraternal organizations
F. Galerius Aurelianus aka P. D. Owen S.P.D.

As a Freemason (whose father was a member of the KoC & grandfather was a Freemason), I can say that Freemasonry may be experiencing a new period of growth. At 45, I was one of the younger men in early 2004 but there have been a dozen new brothers in my lodge in the past 18 months younger than I am. David is correct in that if Freemasonry doesn't change then it could go into a serious decline. In that, many masons in Tennessee espouse healing the old rift between ourselves and PH/MM Lodges rather than merely entering into an accommodation with them. It is high time that Freemasonry in the USA recognizes and practices that which we are supposed to already know; namely that we should judge the internal qualifications of a candidate rather than anything external.
Since Freemasonry doesn't recruit or proselytize, men who are interested will have to remember what our bumperstickers say, "2B1ASK1"

Valete.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Kling <tau.athanasios@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:04:01 -0500
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

This is a flimsy argument to say the least!

As a Mason, and a lodge officer (Senior Deacon) I am probably the youngest
active member of my lodge or close to it at 35. The average age of Masons
in Ohio is 65. If Masonry is not careful, it will find itself extinct.
Fraternal orders as a whole are suffering. Masonry is not larger because it
"allows anyone," while the Knights of Columbus only allows Catholics.
Fraternal orders accross the board are suffering: International Order of
Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, Masonry, etc... They are all suffering.

However, I am not sure I follow your reasoning below. What exactly are you
advocating?

The Religio Romana of Nova Roma is NOT going away, and it is not going to be
relegated to some hidden location on the website. If doing so WOULD help
Nova Roma grow, then it has no need to grow. Without the Pax Deorum there
is no Nova Roma.

Vale;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Octavio,
>
> Perhaps this is why the Knights of Columbus is a dying organization and
> the Freemasons are making a big comeback. Religion is a very great aspect of
> both. But the Freemasons are much more inclusive and do not discuss religion
> (or politics) at all in a lodge. You can be a Catholic and be a Freemason,
> or Jewish or Muslim, etc. But you have to be a Catholic to be KOC. Which
> organization can do greater things for their communities, a large one or a
> small one. Would you like NR to stay as a tiny community of likeminded
> individuals proselytizing one religion. Or would you prefer for it to be
> inviting to all and grow, grow and grow while still upholding the Religio as
> an integral part of its make-up.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40429 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: To my brethren on the NR ML
F. Galerius Aurelianus M. Cassio Philippo (and all other Masonic Brethren on the NR ML). Salve.

If you all will note a number of previous posts I have made on the ML and some other NR lists you will likely note that I believe in one supreme being, G-O-D, but I am also the priest of the Goddess Ceres within NR. I believe in both GOD and Ceres. How is this possible, you may ask, my brethren? It is possible in the same way that a Christian can believe in GOD and angels. If GOD can create the heaven, the earth, and mankind, then GOD can create other divine, immortal beings that are subordinate to their Creator.
For clarification to those not members of Freemasonry, it should be clarified that in Freemasonry the Book of Sacred Law that rests upon the Altar of Freemasonry in a lodge usually reflects the primary religion of the country in which the lodge is established. In the USA, most lodges have a Bible but some have the Torah/Talmud if the membership is primarily Jewish and a few have the Koran if the membership is primarily Moslem. In India, the Book of Sacred Law can be either the Bible, the Koran, or the Rig Veda depending on the membership. As a Mason, if you were initiated in a primarily Moslem Lodge, you would still make token of your sincerity in the same manner as if you were in a primarily Christian Lodge.
Please remember, my brethren, that we are to "admonish gently" if we believe that a brother is committing an error. So I now admonish you gently, my brothers, to consider communicating with your other brothers privately so that we can demonstrate to the world the happy effects of our ancient and honorable institution.
So should we ever meet, walk, and part.

Vale.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:06:37 -0500
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Salve Modianus,

I too am a master mason and up here in Maine we are growing rather well.
Although overall you are quite correct, fraternal orders are in decline. This
new age of warfare is changing things though. People are rediscovering their
faith and their relationships with their neighbors. One question though, as a
"pagan" don't you find it to be a bit hypocritical to kiss the Christian Bible
in your lodge, or do you attend a "pagan" lodge (which I cannot believe exists)
since it is in direct opposition to the Masonic belief in One God, the name you
use is not important but the belief in One Deity is NOT up for discussion there!
Do you just keep your "pagan" believes a secret from your brethren? If you do,
then how can you be so "proud" of it here? How can this be, are you a
"flipflopper".

Believe me, you are not the only Nova Roman living in this "double life" which
is akin to living a Lie. Most Nova Romans would indeed be surprised at how many
Freemasons there are within our midst that are also heavily involved in the
Religio. It is none of my business so I will not "out" anybody. You have just
done so for yourself in order to make your point. So, I'm curios, why don't you
have the courage to come out of the closet with this information in your Lodge?
Are you afraid of the ramifications? If the Lodge accepts it and you, they in
turn would lose their legal affiliation, would they not? How could they not? The
oaths you swore are meaningless without believing in the book you swore them on!
Again, I may be using words here that may seem offensive but I am not trying to
offend you my friend I just want to know so I can understand where you are
coming from better.

Without belief in a "Single Deity" there is no Freemasonry. How can you call
yourself a Freemason and not believe in its most profound tenet? AND take solemn
oaths based on this non-negotiable tenet.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kling
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

This is a flimsy argument to say the least!

As a Mason, and a lodge officer (Senior Deacon) I am probably the youngest
active member of my lodge or close to it at 35. The average age of Masons
in Ohio is 65. If Masonry is not careful, it will find itself extinct.
Fraternal orders as a whole are suffering. Masonry is not larger because it
"allows anyone," while the Knights of Columbus only allows Catholics.
Fraternal orders accross the board are suffering: International Order of
Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, Masonry, etc... They are all suffering.

However, I am not sure I follow your reasoning below. What exactly are you
advocating?

The Religio Romana of Nova Roma is NOT going away, and it is not going to be
relegated to some hidden location on the website. If doing so WOULD help
Nova Roma grow, then it has no need to grow. Without the Pax Deorum there
is no Nova Roma.

Vale;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Octavio,
>
> Perhaps this is why the Knights of Columbus is a dying organization and
> the Freemasons are making a big comeback. Religion is a very great aspect of
> both. But the Freemasons are much more inclusive and do not discuss religion
> (or politics) at all in a lodge. You can be a Catholic and be a Freemason,
> or Jewish or Muslim, etc. But you have to be a Catholic to be KOC. Which
> organization can do greater things for their communities, a large one or a
> small one. Would you like NR to stay as a tiny community of likeminded
> individuals proselytizing one religion. Or would you prefer for it to be
> inviting to all and grow, grow and grow while still upholding the Religio as
> an integral part of its make-up.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40430 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Modianus,

Those Lodges that exist in polytheistic nations do not have the same rituals nor do they swear an oath by the Christian Bible. You are right, polytheism in itself does not preclude membership (except that in most if not all U.S. Lodges which are predominantly Judeo-Christian. If there are some that are not, then they are free to do otherwise, but like I said I don't know of any that are. They all use a bible and no other sacred text), but taking an oath on a sacred text that a person does not consider to be sacred by virtue of not believing in it is by definition not an oath, just as an oath by a slave cannot be taken seriously, so an insincere oath by virtue of taking it without belief in the sacred texts it is taken on cannot be taken seriously. The fact that your Masonic brethren still accept you is a testament to their steadfast kinship and brotherhood but I still think that it would have been more appropriate for you to apply to form a "Religio" based Masonic Lodge rather than participate in an unholy oath.

I am very aware of Marcus Cassius Iulianus's status and I did not think it was anybody's business but his to divulge his status, I do not understand why you have done so for him. If he wanted everyone to know his macroworld affiliations he would have done so himself. I have never discussed these issues with him and was not planning to do so in our interview since, again - it is not any of our businesses. You are the one who brought up the fact that you are a believer in the Religio and a Mason as well - in this Forum. I was just curious as to how you could be both and still swear a solemn oath by the Christian Bible. Although Symbology is a very strong point in Masonry, when it comes to the sacred texts it goes way beyond symbology, it is at the core of Freemasonry, which is why Muslim Lodges use the Quran, Hindu Lodges the Vedas, etc. in their respective Lodges. Do you think a devout Muslim would ever kiss the Christian Bible in any Lodge while taking an oath? This would be unthinkable. Yet this is precisely what you have done and you consider this just symbolic?

Will it be just as symbolic when you take any other oath of office in Nova Roma? How can we know where you stand? I assure you that I would not be able to do so. If that means no cursus honorum for me, well that's the price I will have to pay. If on the other hand integrity is more important than belief in any religion then I guess I can get a pass on this. I cannot change the rules though, and I cannot dismiss my integrity either. It would go against my soul to swear an oath to gods that I do not worship. If I did how could anyone believe anything I were to say after doing so?

I am presently in the process of introducing a Saudi prince and fellow martial arts brother of mine to Freemasonry and he will most likely be starting the "first" Masonic lodge in that country. Like I have stated previously, I respect all faiths, I however do not respect the "false" worship of any faith. It is not symbolic! It is your Truth, or it is not your Truth. Anything else is to live a Lie. Many people do, I cannot.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kling
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

I take offense to: "Believe me, you are not the only Nova Roman living in
this "double life" which is akin to living a Lie." And no, I do not find it
hypocritical to kiss the Bible as a sign if oaths, etc... I respect the
Bible as a sacred text, just as I would show honor to the Quran, or the
Talmud, or the Bagavad Gita. I happen to have respect and tolerance for
peaple of all faiths, and see the Bible in the lodge room as a symbol -- of
which I will not go into here.

From the Grand Lodge of Ohio website:

Application for membership is open to men who:

- Have been an Ohio resident for at least one year
- Are at least 19 years old
- Have a belief in a Supreme Being
- Live a good moral and social life
- Do not advocate the overthrow of the government
- Can read and write English
- Are recommended by two members of the Lodge they wish to join. (If
you do not know two members of a Lodge, the secretary of the Lodge to which
you are applying can arrange a meeting with two members of the Lodge for you
.)

From the Grand Lodge of Maine website:

"The only religious requirement is that candidates believe in the Supreme
Being. If you can in good faith profess a belief in the Supreme Being, you
are eligible to be a Mason. No atheists will ever knowingly be made a Mason.
There are Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Mormon), Jewish, and Muslim
Masons. It would be tedious and pointless to go into a religion-by-religion
(and then denomination-by-denomination) discussion. The key points to
remember are the requirement of belief in the Supreme Being and the fact
that Masonry is a fraternity, not a religion."

Freemasonry does not mandate belief in a single divinity as you would
promote. It does, however, mandate belief in a Supreme Being - Great
Architect of the Universe. Might I remind you that there are Hindu Masons,
and Hinduism is a polytheistic faith. The FACT that my definition of
Supreme Being is different than yours is irrelevant.

You stated:

"So, I'm curios, why don't you have the courage to come out of the closet
with this information in your Lodge? Are you afraid of the ramifications?"

I do not hide my beliefs and opinions from my brothers in lodge. On the
other hand, we don't typically preach to one another. Anyone who asks me
about my beliefs will get an honest opinion, to do otherwise would not be
"on the level, and by the square."

"If the Lodge accepts it and you, they in turn would lose their legal
affiliation, would they not? How could they not?"

Are you such a fool to believe this? Lose thier affiliation with whom? The
Grand Lodge?

"The oaths you swore are meaningless without believing in the book you swore
them on!"

This is completely false. It is a matter of opinion. When I joined DeMolay
years ago I was asked if wanted to swear my oath on another text other than
the Bible. I opted not to, and prefered to use the Bible as everyone else
was doing. Sacred texts are just that sacred, and it is that symbolism that
is important.

"Without belief in a "Single Deity" there is no Freemasonry."

See above.

I know several Pagans within Masonry, there are more of us than you think.
I know two in Nova Roma, including one of our founders Marcus Cassius
Julianus. When you interview Cassius why don't you ask him about "living a
lie," and see if he too isn't offended.

If you would like to contact my lodge please feel free to contact the Grand
Lodge of Ohio. I belong to Harmony Lodge #8 in Urbana, Ohio. By all means,
contact them and tell them whatever you like. I have nothing to hide.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Modianus,
>
> I too am a master mason and up here in Maine we are growing rather well.
> Although overall you are quite correct, fraternal orders are in decline.
> This new age of warfare is changing things though. People are rediscovering
> their faith and their relationships with their neighbors. One question
> though, as a "pagan" don't you find it to be a bit hypocritical to kiss the
> Christian Bible in your lodge, or do you attend a "pagan" lodge (which I
> cannot believe exists) since it is in direct opposition to the Masonic
> belief in One God, the name you use is not important but the belief in One
> Deity is NOT up for discussion there! Do you just keep your "pagan" believes
> a secret from your brethren? If you do, then how can you be so "proud" of it
> here? How can this be, are you a "flipflopper".
>
> Believe me, you are not the only Nova Roman living in this "double life"
> which is akin to living a Lie. Most Nova Romans would indeed be surprised at
> how many Freemasons there are within our midst that are also heavily
> involved in the Religio. It is none of my business so I will not "out"
> anybody. You have just done so for yourself in order to make your point.
> So, I'm curios, why don't you have the courage to come out of the closet
> with this information in your Lodge? Are you afraid of the ramifications? If
> the Lodge accepts it and you, they in turn would lose their legal
> affiliation, would they not? How could they not? The oaths you swore are
> meaningless without believing in the book you swore them on! Again, I may be
> using words here that may seem offensive but I am not trying to offend you
> my friend I just want to know so I can understand where you are coming from
> better.
>
> Without belief in a "Single Deity" there is no Freemasonry. How can you
> call yourself a Freemason and not believe in its most profound tenet? AND
> take solemn oaths based on this non-negotiable tenet.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Kling
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
>
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit
>
> This is a flimsy argument to say the least!
>
> As a Mason, and a lodge officer (Senior Deacon) I am probably the
> youngest
> active member of my lodge or close to it at 35. The average age of
> Masons
> in Ohio is 65. If Masonry is not careful, it will find itself extinct.
> Fraternal orders as a whole are suffering. Masonry is not larger
> because it
> "allows anyone," while the Knights of Columbus only allows Catholics.
> Fraternal orders accross the board are suffering: International Order
> of
> Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, Masonry, etc... They are all
> suffering.
>
> However, I am not sure I follow your reasoning below. What exactly are
> you
> advocating?
>
> The Religio Romana of Nova Roma is NOT going away, and it is not going
> to be
> relegated to some hidden location on the website. If doing so WOULD
> help
> Nova Roma grow, then it has no need to grow. Without the Pax Deorum
> there
> is no Nova Roma.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Octavio,
> >
> > Perhaps this is why the Knights of Columbus is a dying organization
> and
> > the Freemasons are making a big comeback. Religion is a very great
> aspect of
> > both. But the Freemasons are much more inclusive and do not discuss
> religion
> > (or politics) at all in a lodge. You can be a Catholic and be a
> Freemason,
> > or Jewish or Muslim, etc. But you have to be a Catholic to be KOC.
> Which
> > organization can do greater things for their communities, a large one
> or a
> > small one. Would you like NR to stay as a tiny community of likeminded
> > individuals proselytizing one religion. Or would you prefer for it to
> be
> > inviting to all and grow, grow and grow while still upholding the
> Religio as
> > an integral part of its make-up.
> >
> > Vires et honos,
> > Marcus Cassius Philippus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> Service.
>
>
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history Fall of the roman empire The fall of the roman empire
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40431 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: a.d. VII Id. Dec.
Q. Metellus C. Catoni sal.

> On this day in 43 B.C., Cicero was murdered on the orders of Mark
> Antony as he tried to leave Italy.

Indeed, that only adds to making this day one of the saddest days in
history. It's only succeeded by that fateful, "December 7th, 1941, a
date that will live in infamy...."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40432 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR (QFM)
Salve, Marce Cassi -

On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 10:35:12AM -0500, Sensei Phil Perez wrote:
> Salve Scaevola,
>
> The worst part of it all is that I'm afraid the macro-world judicial
> systm is even worse shape and "real'" justice is just about impossible
> to achieve. What most people accomplish is to simply enrich the
> pockets of lawyers. Very few cases even reach a courtroom and when
> someone "loses" there is always an appeal process which further
> enriches the lawyers. The process can drag out over the better part of
> a decade and cost more that a luxury home. Yet this is the "best" that
> is available. most people get off with a slap on the wrist and a small
> fine.

Well, here's where I draw a fine line: I want Nova Roma to be better
than the macroworld, and I believe that in specific cases, it can be.
I.e., its justice system. If I didn't believe that, do you think that it
would even be an issue for me, or that I would waste even a microsecond
of my time being upset about it? I think you know me better than that by
now. The reason that I'm at all upset about it is that I believe in it.

I still do believe that the Roman Virtues can result in a better system;
that's one of the major reasons that I'm here. So, if the principle is
good... then what is at fault is the implementation. That's where my
argument is aimed.

> You are, I am afraid, beating a dead horse and further wasting your
> time. As you already know, my friend. It is pointless. If you really
> fear an attack, get a permit to carry and stay alert.

I'll just say that I used to teach pistol: both in the military (as an
OPFOR specialist in Soviet armament) and after I got out and got
additional training from Kent Turnipseed. Further, the deponent sayeth
not. :)

As to martial arts, I haven't kept up recently, but I've taken a number
of years of Pentjak Silat Serak from Pendekar Paul deThouars, and a bit
of knifework from his brother Victor. I also did a fair amount of Pha
Rang Do a while before that.

Much more important than that, though, is that I grew up being a street
fighter. The techniques are great polish, but the combat mentality is
what matters most. :)

None of that makes me invulnerable, but I've found it useful on
occasion.

> Now for a more productive Nova Roman subject (no offense, I know how
> you feel - remember your little plumber scenario, mine was with an
> electrician and after spending thousands of $$$ on legal fees we had
> to walk away from a courtroom hearing because it would have meant
> thousands more wasted - nothing would have prevented him from claiming
> bankcruptcy and the next week starting another company under a new
> name.): It looks like I will have to interview Germanicus via phone
> and tape record it with a standard (non digital) tape. How can I
> transfer it to an Ipodcast from that, or will this interview be
> limited to the written word published in th "Aquila". I do not have
> the funds to go out and purchase new technology for this one
> interview. can I use the recording function on my tapeless phone
> answering system and then transfer this digitally to someone who can
> transfer it? I need technical counseling here my friend.

Oh, that's an easy one. :) You do indeed have the money for the
necessary equipment - if you can spare about $4 for a patch cord, which
is just a wire that goes from the earphone jack on your tape player to
the "In" plug on the sound card at the back of your computer. In
Windows, go to 'Start/Programs/Accessories/Entertainment/Sound
Recorder', and click the record button right after hitting 'Play' on
your tape player. Be sure to run the tape player at a low volume (about
3 out of 10) to start with, and check the recording quality; if there's
too much distortion, you'll need to lower the input volume.

ObRoman history: I'm surprised that Cicero didn't spend more time
complaining about MS Word. They must have had a much better version of
it back then...


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Primum est non nocere.
First of all, do no harm.
-- Hippocrates; The maxim has become an ethical guiding principle in medicine.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40433 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

It is obvious to me that no matter what I say, or do, you will twist it to
suit yourself. I know many Masons, like myself, who see the world
differently than what you do. I do not think the citizens of Nova Roma care
to discuss Masonry, if you want to take this privatly then please do so.

Regarding taking oaths, keep one thing in mind... when you are elected
Editor of the Aquila you will have to take an oath:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-10-19-ii.html

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Modianus,
>
> Those Lodges that exist in polytheistic nations do not have the same
> rituals nor do they swear an oath by the Christian Bible. You are right,
> polytheism in itself does not preclude membership (except that in most if
> not all U.S. Lodges which are predominantly Judeo-Christian. If there are
> some that are not, then they are free to do otherwise, but like I said I
> don't know of any that are. They all use a bible and no other sacred text),
> but taking an oath on a sacred text that a person does not consider to be
> sacred by virtue of not believing in it is by definition not an oath, just
> as an oath by a slave cannot be taken seriously, so an insincere oath by
> virtue of taking it without belief in the sacred texts it is taken on cannot
> be taken seriously. The fact that your Masonic brethren still accept you is
> a testament to their steadfast kinship and brotherhood but I still think
> that it would have been more appropriate for you to apply to form a
> "Religio" based Masonic Lodge rather than participate in an unholy oath.
>
> I am very aware of Marcus Cassius Iulianus's status and I did not think it
> was anybody's business but his to divulge his status, I do not understand
> why you have done so for him. If he wanted everyone to know his macroworld
> affiliations he would have done so himself. I have never discussed these
> issues with him and was not planning to do so in our interview since, again
> - it is not any of our businesses. You are the one who brought up the fact
> that you are a believer in the Religio and a Mason as well - in this Forum.
> I was just curious as to how you could be both and still swear a solemn oath
> by the Christian Bible. Although Symbology is a very strong point in
> Masonry, when it comes to the sacred texts it goes way beyond symbology, it
> is at the core of Freemasonry, which is why Muslim Lodges use the Quran,
> Hindu Lodges the Vedas, etc. in their respective Lodges. Do you think a
> devout Muslim would ever kiss the Christian Bible in any Lodge while taking
> an oath? This would be unthinkable. Yet this is precisely what you have done
> and you consider this just symbolic?
>
> Will it be just as symbolic when you take any other oath of office in Nova
> Roma? How can we know where you stand? I assure you that I would not be able
> to do so. If that means no cursus honorum for me, well that's the price I
> will have to pay. If on the other hand integrity is more important than
> belief in any religion then I guess I can get a pass on this. I cannot
> change the rules though, and I cannot dismiss my integrity either. It would
> go against my soul to swear an oath to gods that I do not worship. If I did
> how could anyone believe anything I were to say after doing so?
>
> I am presently in the process of introducing a Saudi prince and fellow
> martial arts brother of mine to Freemasonry and he will most likely be
> starting the "first" Masonic lodge in that country. Like I have stated
> previously, I respect all faiths, I however do not respect the "false"
> worship of any faith. It is not symbolic! It is your Truth, or it is not
> your Truth. Anything else is to live a Lie. Many people do, I cannot.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40434 From: GAIVS IVLIANVS Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete omnes! I am also against using the term
"Pagan" to describe ourselves! Also the majority of
our co-religionists in Italy are against it too. It is
a term of abuse! The Neo-Pagans may be happy with it,
but I am not! And it doesn't matter if I am living in
the city or the country, I refuse to term myself a
"Paganus" which implies backwardness, stupidity or
country bumpkin! "Religio Romana" says it all! We are
simply "Romani." Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS,
PGI

--- David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo
> salutem dicit
>
> The original Christian community didn't use the term
> Christian either. Its
> first usage was not the same as it is used now. The
> same can be said for
> the term Pagan. The word Pagan, at least in the
> United States and I would
> fathom parts of Europe, has become an umbrella term
> for polytheistic
> traditions -- most of which have only recently
> undergone a process of
> restoration, reconstruction, and interpretation.
>
> I do not believe the word Pagan has any negative
> connotations. But then
> again, I am fully immersed in Pagan culture, and
> lifestyle. As we have seen
> in the past the word Christian holds many negative
> connotations to Pagans.
> We have fought those "Pagan Fundamentalists" and
> they are no longer
> espousing their hate, but fear, animosity, and
> misunderstanding exists on
> both sides of the theological spectrum. While there
> are some in Nova Roma
> who do not like the term Pagan, prefering
> Polytheist, the term Pagan is so
> widely utilized it would be wrong to disassociate
> from the term because some
> are uncomfortable with it.
>
> I am not ashamed to use the term Pagan, nor would I
> expect a Christian to be
> ashamed of using the term Christian.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
>
>
> On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez
> <senseiphil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Modianus,
> >
> > I have just gone to the web page and it is not a
> problem for me. The word
> > "pagan" just isn't necessary though. Why use it at
> all. Did the ancient
> > Romans call themselves "Pagans" or is that a
> disparaging word used by the
> > Jewish and early Christian societies in reference
> to the Roman religion and
> > all other Polytheistic societies. If this is not
> the case, I stand
> > corrected. If it is the case then it would be the
> equivalent of a black
> > organization calling itself a "Nigger"
> organization. The word "Pagan"
> > carries too many negative associations with it.
> The Religio would still be
> > the Religio without the use of this one word.
> >
> > Vires et honos,
> > Marcus Cassius Philippus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




__________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40435 From: Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero
Cn. Lentulus: Q. Metello: C. Equitio: Omnibus Latinistis et Quiritibus: sal.:

We all must commemorate M. Tullius Cicero, Pater Patriae: his death was the end of the Old Republic, the most damned event in Rome caused by M. Antonius - it will accuse him forever.

Consider, Quirites, that without the works of M. Tullius Cicero we could never restore the Republic, nor the Religio. The largest part of what we know about the Republic, its functioning, the public life of Rome and the Religio - we know from the books written by M. Cicero. We must give thank him and bow our heads before his greatness.

VIVIT AETERNE IN NOSTRIS CORDIBVS
BONORVM VIRORVM SEMPER OPTVMVS
M. CICERO PATER PATRIAE ET CONSERVATOR
IMPERATOR CONSVL PROCONSVL PRAETOR
AEDILIS QVAESTOR AVGVR DEFENSOR
REI PVBLICAE OMNIVM MAXIMVS ORATOR


CN. LENTVLVS SCRIPSIT



"Q. Caecilius Metellus" <metellus@...> ha scritto:
Q. Metellus C. Catoni sal.

> On this day in 43 B.C., Cicero was murdered on the orders of Mark
> Antony as he tried to leave Italy.


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
QUAESTOR CANDIDATUS
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis Fr. Apuli Caesaris
Scriba Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae Senior
Scriba Magistri Araneari C. Minuci Scaevolae Iunior
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus

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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40436 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: WE MUST BE CLEAR
Marcus Iulius Severus Gaio Fabio Buteo Modiano salutem dicit

First of all, I want to thank you in this public forum, because your answer to my doubts and worries was not only respectful, but friendly and kind. I wish all the discussions among Nova Romans had such characteristics and were so constructive.
I am not offended, amice, and least of it, "so much". I want to understand and make myself understood. I know there is ample room in Nova Roma for people like me, who don't actively sacrifice to the Gods of Rome. You and everybody can be sure that I honor them.
I know that the Religio Romana is one of the priorities for Nova Roma. If I am elected as Rogator, I will promote ALL the priorities of Nova Roma without any bias, and I'll be certainly honored by taking an oath expressing my deep and true respect for the Gods of Roma.
I consider Nova Roma to be a very tolerant place, that's why I don't understand why some Nova Romans act with such intolerance. I don't promote any religion, amice, nor consider any to be better than the others. I have no religion at all, but if I had to choose one, I will elect the Religio Romana.
Certainly, religion is not my "thing", as you put it, but I respect the Religio Romana and I will defend it, if necessary.
Sorry, amice, but you're the one "most absolutely wrong". Yes, the Religio Romana, as you write, "was an extremely important part" of Roman history, culture, and society. Shall we read again your own words, please? It was AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT PART, etc. But it was NOT the State, nor the culture and history. As a matter of fact, inside the Roman society coexisted several religions, as you know. Of course, the Religio Romana was the State religion. I don't pretend to promote the divorce of the State religion from the State, quite the contrary. But, then, Roma was NOT a church nor a religious organization. Roma was a State, a nation, an ideal, the Civilization, the Culture... The Religio Romana was and is, of course, extremely important, but it was not, and it is not, all.
I think I understand very well what Nova Roma is. And you recognize also that to say that Nova Roma is "first and foremost, a religious organization" is somewhat misleading. I agree with you, in this and when you write: "If Rome is to be restored, then the Gods of Roime need to be restored as well".
Don't be sorry, then, because you said precisaly what I wanted to hear. I hope we now fully understand each other, and all the citizens know what I have been trying to say.

Vale optime,

M•IVL•SEVERVS
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•GEM
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM
PROVINCIA•MEXICO•NOVƕROMƕSPQR


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40437 From: rocknrockabilly Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: The Religio in NR
Salvete omnes,

If religion is so important to us, citizens of Nova Roma, it is because
religion has always been the cornerstone of any society, ancient and
modern. I believe we often misinterpret the word "religion," often too
restrictive. In this context, religion goes beyond the mere definite set of
rituals and beliefs in certain gods or a God. Another more appropriate
word would be "world view."

It is often interesting to realize how societies and civilizations have
adapted their beliefs to their views of the world. Eastern religions are
different from Western religions (I mean here Paganism, Christianity
originating in the East) because Eastern societies are different from
Western societies. The gods of the Greeks were not too disimilar to
humans, because the prime focus of the Greek world view was the
human. At the same time, the Seres (Chinese) held the Emperor as
divine, a concept at odds with Greek thought. It is for this reason that
many scholars have called the Hellenistic period a period of decadence,
because it took in many oriental features, including the idea that the
ruler was a god. Similarily, Muslims believe that God is the sole King on
earth, and that all should be under His rule.

Christianity offers the best example of the intermingling between
religious beliefs and a people's worldview. Christians were persecuted
under Roman rule because they seemed to constitute a threat to Roman
order. The concept of a God above all, including the Emperor, could
seriously threaten Imperial rule and the idea that the Emperor the
supreme head of the world. Once Christianity became the religion of the
Empire under Constantine, Roman order was virtually brought to an
end, and Christianity came to embody the medieval worldview with the
Church at its head. Twelve centuries later, a monk by the name of
Martin Luther ignited the Reformation, because he knew that the order
of the Roman Church was no longer adapted to his time, the
Renaissance. It was the beginning of the Protestant churches.

By this introduction, I want to point out that religious beliefs follow
societal order, and vice versa. This is the reason why so-called secular
countries are experiencing difficulties with the acceptance of all
religions, because, and it is particularily true of Islam, their conceptions
of the world is different from our own. Speaking of Religio Romana, we
do not mean that Nova Roma is a mere cult group whose only aim is to
worship the pagan gods, nor that all must worship them. Nova Roma is
the recreation of an ideal, Rome. Rome is an ideal, in the same way
that Christianity, Islam or Confucianism are ideals that seek the good of
humanity. As long as our citizens respect and work for this ideal that we
deem right, they are welcome to worship the gods they wish to, but we
must also be aware to respect the worldviews of other peoples.

Valete bene,

Tit. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40438 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: WE MUST BE CLEAR
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Iulio Severo salutem dicit

I am pleased that we are starting to understand one another. This is a good
thing, and something that everyone in Nova Roma should strive for -- to
understand and to be understood.

The Religio Romana, and Nova Roma, is very tolerant of others -- that is a
characteristic of Roman Religion. However, the Religio and the State are so
inter-twined to say one could exist without the other is an illusion. This
is why the founders of Nova Roma created the state, because it was necessary
to have the state to restore the state religion. They co-exist in a
depenant relationship. This is a difficult concept to understand in our day
and age -- in an age of seperation of Church and state.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, M�IVL�SEVERVS <marcusiuliusseverus@...> wrote:
>
> Marcus Iulius Severus Gaio Fabio Buteo Modiano salutem dicit
>
> First of all, I want to thank you in this public forum, because your
> answer to my doubts and worries was not only respectful, but friendly and
> kind. I wish all the discussions among Nova Romans had such characteristics
> and were so constructive.
> I am not offended, amice, and least of it, "so much". I want to understand
> and make myself understood. I know there is ample room in Nova Roma for
> people like me, who don't actively sacrifice to the Gods of Rome. You and
> everybody can be sure that I honor them.
> I know that the Religio Romana is one of the priorities for Nova Roma. If
> I am elected as Rogator, I will promote ALL the priorities of Nova Roma
> without any bias, and I'll be certainly honored by taking an oath expressing
> my deep and true respect for the Gods of Roma.
> I consider Nova Roma to be a very tolerant place, that's why I don't
> understand why some Nova Romans act with such intolerance. I don't promote
> any religion, amice, nor consider any to be better than the others. I have
> no religion at all, but if I had to choose one, I will elect the Religio
> Romana.
> Certainly, religion is not my "thing", as you put it, but I respect the
> Religio Romana and I will defend it, if necessary.
> Sorry, amice, but you're the one "most absolutely wrong". Yes, the Religio
> Romana, as you write, "was an extremely important part" of Roman history,
> culture, and society. Shall we read again your own words, please? It was AN
> EXTREMELY IMPORTANT PART, etc. But it was NOT the State, nor the culture and
> history. As a matter of fact, inside the Roman society coexisted several
> religions, as you know. Of course, the Religio Romana was the State
> religion. I don't pretend to promote the divorce of the State religion from
> the State, quite the contrary. But, then, Roma was NOT a church nor a
> religious organization. Roma was a State, a nation, an ideal, the
> Civilization, the Culture... The Religio Romana was and is, of course,
> extremely important, but it was not, and it is not, all.
> I think I understand very well what Nova Roma is. And you recognize also
> that to say that Nova Roma is "first and foremost, a religious organization"
> is somewhat misleading. I agree with you, in this and when you write: "If
> Rome is to be restored, then the Gods of Roime need to be restored as well".
> Don't be sorry, then, because you said precisaly what I wanted to hear. I
> hope we now fully understand each other, and all the citizens know what I
> have been trying to say.
>
> Vale optime,
>
> M�IVL�SEVERVS
> SCRIBA�CENSORIS�GEM
> MVS�VS�COLLEGII�ERATOVS�SODALITATIS�MVSARVM
> SOCIVS�CHORI�MVSARVM
> PROVINCIA�MEXICO�NOV��ROM��SPQR


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40439 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Marcus Cassius,

> If you have your wish NR will be doomed to always
> stay quite small, only attracting "pagans".

Fundamentalists aside, I think that anyone who runs
from being in an organization with pagans would most
likely be turned off by any organization that refers
to any religion. In this modern society, most people
do not want to hear about any religion at all.

That said, there is very little focus given to the
Religio on the first page of the website. Certainly
not enough to scare people away. The Via Romana, Roman
Virtues and Lingua Latina are given a larger
paragraph. And only one of the six rubrieks refers to
the Religio.

And to those who do not us to refer to ourselves as
pagan: I believe that only on the bottom of the first
page is the word 'pagan' used. In the rest of the
site, the term Religio Romana is used.

I'm also one of those people who joined NR for the
Religio. I still remember the excitement I felt back
in May 1999 when I stumbled onto the website. Even
amongst 'pagans', worshiping the Roman Gods is not too
popular. It is much more trendy to be into Native
American Religion, Egyptian Paganism or Eclectic
Wiccan. Here in NR, many of us can feel at home
amongst like minded people -- even if they live on the
other side of the Atlantic ocean.

Vale,
Diana Octavia




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40440 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Modianus,

I have no problem with you my brother, I do not mean to insult you, just to make you think about certain things. I have read the oath and have no problem with it since it states that I have to "honor" the gods, this a far cry from "worship". It also states that I should swear to uphold and defend the religio. I would swear to defend and uphold the Religio, well if I were to take on a job in Saudi Arabia it would only be right that I swear to uphold and defend Islam. In either case it would not be in contradiction to my faith. It would if it stated that I should refute my beliefs in Christianity or order me to attack that faith (or any other for that matter). You should be aware that in the second century AD a very large proportion of Rome's civil servants were Christians simply because they were literate (they were taught to read and write in order to be able to read their sacred texts) whereas the pagan population at large was mostly illiterate and therefore useless in the civil service.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus

"A bird fell out of a stormy winter sky and into the snow. The snow broke its fall and it survived. Just before the creature died from the cold, a cow dumped a big pile of dung on it. It saved its life because of its warmth. In the morning the bird chirped in delight to still be alive and was promptly eaten by a cat. The moral of the story: Just because you think someone shit on you doesn't make them your enemy, and just because someone picks you out of the shit doesn't necessarily make them your friend either."

----- Original Message -----
From: David Kling
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

It is obvious to me that no matter what I say, or do, you will twist it to
suit yourself. I know many Masons, like myself, who see the world
differently than what you do. I do not think the citizens of Nova Roma care
to discuss Masonry, if you want to take this privatly then please do so.

Regarding taking oaths, keep one thing in mind... when you are elected
Editor of the Aquila you will have to take an oath:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-10-19-ii.html

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Modianus,
>
> Those Lodges that exist in polytheistic nations do not have the same
> rituals nor do they swear an oath by the Christian Bible. You are right,
> polytheism in itself does not preclude membership (except that in most if
> not all U.S. Lodges which are predominantly Judeo-Christian. If there are
> some that are not, then they are free to do otherwise, but like I said I
> don't know of any that are. They all use a bible and no other sacred text),
> but taking an oath on a sacred text that a person does not consider to be
> sacred by virtue of not believing in it is by definition not an oath, just
> as an oath by a slave cannot be taken seriously, so an insincere oath by
> virtue of taking it without belief in the sacred texts it is taken on cannot
> be taken seriously. The fact that your Masonic brethren still accept you is
> a testament to their steadfast kinship and brotherhood but I still think
> that it would have been more appropriate for you to apply to form a
> "Religio" based Masonic Lodge rather than participate in an unholy oath.
>
> I am very aware of Marcus Cassius Iulianus's status and I did not think it
> was anybody's business but his to divulge his status, I do not understand
> why you have done so for him. If he wanted everyone to know his macroworld
> affiliations he would have done so himself. I have never discussed these
> issues with him and was not planning to do so in our interview since, again
> - it is not any of our businesses. You are the one who brought up the fact
> that you are a believer in the Religio and a Mason as well - in this Forum.
> I was just curious as to how you could be both and still swear a solemn oath
> by the Christian Bible. Although Symbology is a very strong point in
> Masonry, when it comes to the sacred texts it goes way beyond symbology, it
> is at the core of Freemasonry, which is why Muslim Lodges use the Quran,
> Hindu Lodges the Vedas, etc. in their respective Lodges. Do you think a
> devout Muslim would ever kiss the Christian Bible in any Lodge while taking
> an oath? This would be unthinkable. Yet this is precisely what you have done
> and you consider this just symbolic?
>
> Will it be just as symbolic when you take any other oath of office in Nova
> Roma? How can we know where you stand? I assure you that I would not be able
> to do so. If that means no cursus honorum for me, well that's the price I
> will have to pay. If on the other hand integrity is more important than
> belief in any religion then I guess I can get a pass on this. I cannot
> change the rules though, and I cannot dismiss my integrity either. It would
> go against my soul to swear an oath to gods that I do not worship. If I did
> how could anyone believe anything I were to say after doing so?
>
> I am presently in the process of introducing a Saudi prince and fellow
> martial arts brother of mine to Freemasonry and he will most likely be
> starting the "first" Masonic lodge in that country. Like I have stated
> previously, I respect all faiths, I however do not respect the "false"
> worship of any faith. It is not symbolic! It is your Truth, or it is not
> your Truth. Anything else is to live a Lie. Many people do, I cannot.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40441 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Diana,

I have absolutely no problems with the practice of the Religio. It's just that Nova Roma is so much more than that and there is no point in turning people who may be ignorant of the truth of all this fact to be turned off by the use of one small word. It is not really necessary but because it is there it is the focus of the attention of many people who would have been quite an asset to our community and will never join because they couldn't get any further than that one word. I have many admirable martial arts students who would be great Nova Romans, they are not anti-religionists yet they all picked up on that one word and lost interest right there. They have questioned me further on it and know I am no "cultist" I couldn't be further from it but still they can't get past it. Don't forget I teach a lot of Zen Buddhism and Taoism as well in my martial arts academy, I do so as admirable Philosophies that should be investigated in the study of Oriental Martial Arts since like the Religio and Rome, they are inseparable. That word among Judeo Christians is as negatively powerful as the word Nigger in American society. There have been admirable consuls in Nova Roma like Marcus Audens that were not practitioners of the Religio. How many possible people like this great Nova Roman are we turning away because of the use of one small word.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Octavia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Salve Marcus Cassius,

> If you have your wish NR will be doomed to always
> stay quite small, only attracting "pagans".

Fundamentalists aside, I think that anyone who runs
from being in an organization with pagans would most
likely be turned off by any organization that refers
to any religion. In this modern society, most people
do not want to hear about any religion at all.

That said, there is very little focus given to the
Religio on the first page of the website. Certainly
not enough to scare people away. The Via Romana, Roman
Virtues and Lingua Latina are given a larger
paragraph. And only one of the six rubrieks refers to
the Religio.

And to those who do not us to refer to ourselves as
pagan: I believe that only on the bottom of the first
page is the word 'pagan' used. In the rest of the
site, the term Religio Romana is used.

I'm also one of those people who joined NR for the
Religio. I still remember the excitement I felt back
in May 1999 when I stumbled onto the website. Even
amongst 'pagans', worshiping the Roman Gods is not too
popular. It is much more trendy to be into Native
American Religion, Egyptian Paganism or Eclectic
Wiccan. Here in NR, many of us can feel at home
amongst like minded people -- even if they live on the
other side of the Atlantic ocean.

Vale,
Diana Octavia




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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40442 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
In a message dated 12/7/2005 7:35:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
senseiphil@... writes:

The worst part of it all is that I'm afraid the macro-world judicial system
is even worse shape and "real'" justice is just about impossible to achieve.
What most people accomplish is to simply enrich the pockets of lawyers. Very
few cases even reach a courtroom and when someone "loses" there is always an
appeal process which further enriches the lawyers. The process can drag out
over the better part of a decade and cost more that a luxury home. Yet this is
the "best" that is available. most people get off with a slap on the wrist
and a small fine.



A trial is about theatrics and personality, not impartiality.
Most lawyers I know here in the US, hate to go in front of a judge only
because its such a crap shoot. They rather settle or plea bargain.
If it is a hearing, how much will the judge's personal beliefs go to
verdict? And if it's trial
how will the jury react? And will they be impartial? This is why jury
consultants cost so much money.
This summer I was waived off three juries because my mother was a lawyer. I
have no idea
why, except that perhaps I'd be too methodical when it came to the evidence.
But as soon as the defense asked about my mother's occupation in the
interview, the lawyer lost interest.

I was tempted to just to make her a housewife, in the third interview, just
to see what would happen. But of course I was under oath.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40443 From: os390account Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete!

Actually, I must say that a friend of mine wanted to join, but was
confused as to the "religious" requirements, and being a Christian,
was saddened by his interpretation, correctly or not, that to hold
office he would be required to adhere to the religio in a formal sense.

When I told him that I believed it was simply about respecting an
ancient tradition as opposed to assuming the mantle of a new religion,
he decided to start reading about it again, and see whether he would
like to join.

What is the official status on adherence to the religio?

Valete,
Q. Valerius Callidus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40444 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: I DON'T AGREE...
In a message dated 12/6/2005 10:44:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
marcusiuliusseverus@... writes:

Is it true that "Nova Roma is, first and foremost, a religious
organization"? I can't and won't agree. Historic Roma was not a church
nor a religious organization.


Except, you forget that Roman Republic had a religion, that was tied up
into the administration of the state. It was not a church, church is a
whole
different ideal.
NR only reason for existence at the start, was for the public religio to
have a framework.

It has changed now, different people are here for different reasons. They
love Rome,
but it is the religio that is NR's intended contribution.
It worries me that you do not see this.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40445 From: CN•EQVIT•MARINVS (Gnaeus Equitius Mari Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Callide,

Magistrates have to be willing to take the oath of office, and in doing so
they swear that they will not do anything to threaten the position of the
Religio as Nova Roma's official state religion. There is no requirement for
magistrates (or anyone else) to adhere to the Roman practices in their own
private lives.

My own studies have led me to the opinion that a magistrate, and especially a
curule magistrate, is of necessity a practicioner of the Religio Publica,
simply because of the way that the Roman state is deeply intertwined with the
Roman state religion. But in Nova Roma it's a very light sort of practice.
We have now and have had in the past Christians among our magistrates. If
they can take the oath of office in good conscience, that's between them and
their God(s).

Vale,

-- Marinus

> What is the official status on adherence to the religio?
>
> Valete,
> Q. Valerius Callidus

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40446 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
In a message dated 12/6/2005 7:51:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
senseiphil@... writes:

I too though of the word "CULT" right off and then an image of purple cloaks
over corpses came to mind and for some uncanny reason so did Kool Aid :-)



Marcus Cassius Philippus
You are here to learn, yes? Then understand this. All religions are
basically cults. The word comes from Latin. Cultus. To revere or worship.

We are a cult by Roman definition.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40448 From: lucius_fidelius Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: The Religio in NR
Salve Sec. Flaminine, et Salvete Omnes.

At the risk of being the spokesperson for Christian Romani of whom
are numerous in history, I can't help but to note the wild liberty
you take with Roman history.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rocknrockabilly"
<franceuropa@d...> wrote:

> Once Christianity became the religion of the
> Empire under Constantine, Roman order was virtually brought to an
> end, and Christianity came to embody the medieval worldview with
> the Church at its head. Twelve centuries later, a monk by the name
> of Martin Luther ignited the Reformation, because he knew that the
> order of the Roman Church was no longer adapted to his time, the
> Renaissance. It was the beginning of the Protestant churches.

Constantine was emperor in the fourth century. Leaping from there to
medieval worldviews is rather absurd. I couldn't possibly know what
you mean by 'Roman order' though the succession of Roman emperors
ended in 1453. One thousand years of continuous Roman imperial
office, administration and works hardly constitutes a 'disorder.' The
empire did not fall with the city of Rome and Luther addressed no
Roman authority as defined by a legitimate imperium as none existed
that far west by his time.

Vale, et valete,

L. Fidelius Graecus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40449 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Religion in NR
C. Equitius Cato T. Afr. Sec. Flaminino quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve Africanus Flaminus et salvete omnes.

Flaminus, your exegesis regarding the religious impulse was thoughtful
and well-written, and I agree with much of what you said. I would
like to make a small clarification on one point. You wrote:

"Christianity offers the best example of the intermingling between
religious beliefs and a people's worldview."


I would only add the word "Western" at the very beginning of that
sentence. Eastern Orthodoxy has made a specific and thorough point of
placing the Faith utterly outside of time --- so much so that it was
not until about A.D. 1985 or so that clocks were allowed inside
churches and other Orthodox religious establishments. God is outside
of time, and His Church is as well. I would refer you to an
extraordinary manuscript here:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/Modernism.pdf

which deals precisely with this question as regards the Orthodox
Church. It must be conceded that Protestantism was not without some
justification in protesting the form of tradition that it was
confronting --- because far from being faithful to ancient
Christianity, the monarchical Papacy was itself an innovation. But
rather than return to the authentic Christianity of Orthodoxy,
Protestantism sought to remedy the situation by ostensibly returning
to the ancient purity of the Scriptures but in reality was simply
replacing the arbitrariness of a single pope with a "democratic"
papacy, in which each individual is his own infallible pope receiving
direct revelation from the Holy Spirit.

The Orthodox are taught that it is our duty to live and pass on the
Orthodox Faith in its purity --- just as we have received it without
changing it either by adding to it or taking from it. The Orthodox
have no need to be relevant to the Modernist spirit --- because we
have seen heresies come and go. Long after Modernism has been
completely discredited and is a faint memory --- the Orthodox Faith
will still be standing. Rather than trying to hitch our wagon to the
latest fad to create the false idea of a "relevant" Church, we hold
fast to the Traditions we have received from the Apostles, just as we
have received them --- because already contained within that ancient
Faith are all those things necessary to give us the ability to become
that which God intended us.

Rather than a Western rationalist view that makes Christ and the
Apostles out to be primitive thinking men who were foolish enough to
believe in such phenomena as demonic possession and miracles, the
Orthodox Church affirms God as Maker of all things visible and
invisible --- both of the empirical and of the supernatural. We pray
for healing and call on physicians --- because God is not limited
either to natural or to supernatural means to accomplish his purposes.
God can heal through the wisdom and skill of a doctor --- and through
the anointing of oil from a saint's tomb.

<Cato hops off his soapbox>

Anyways, I just wanted to point out (if rather forcefully) that
Christianity is *not* simply Roman Catholicism and that church's own
history.

Vale et valete bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40450 From: Tom Fuller Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Salve Romanai!!
Salve to all,
recently returned from overseas Sorry I missed things.
Tiberius Numerius Felix
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40451 From: jeff hennessy Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2238
Salvete, omnes

For myself personally, I did not join NR for the
religious aspect. If the statement regarding NR being
a religious organization as below, I do not think I
would have joined.

>>> Nova Roma is, first and foremost, a religious
organization. All
else - the politicking,
role-playing, law-playing - is a distraction, and
should never eclipse
what we were
intended to be. <<<

Religion was not the ONLY aspect of a Roman's life.
Is not Nova Roma about everything that is Rome and
Romans? I came to NR for the total package, to learn
about a culture not just a religion.

Just my thoughts,

Valete,

Q. Gratius Acacius

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40452 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2238
Salve Quinte Grati, et salvete omnes,

Q. Gratius Acacius wrote:

> For myself personally, I did not join NR for the
> religious aspect. If the statement regarding NR being
> a religious organization as below, I do not think I
> would have joined.

We are not just a religious organization. In fact, we have more
citizens who are not practitioners of the religio privata than we have
practitioners. But it's important to keep in mind that our
practitioners are a protected minority in the same way that orthodox
jews are in Israel.

> Is not Nova Roma about everything that is Rome and
> Romans? I came to NR for the total package, to learn
> about a culture not just a religion.

You're in the right place. Many of us are here for the cultural aspects.

Vale, et valete quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40453 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete omnes,

Honoring the gods and defending the religion and the constitution of Nova Roma is all that is asked in the oath. Isn't that what we are asked by our ,macro-world country, to honor and defend it? This does not mean that we "worship" our country. The same applies here, at least this is the way I interpret it.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: os390account
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Salvete!

Actually, I must say that a friend of mine wanted to join, but was
confused as to the "religious" requirements, and being a Christian,
was saddened by his interpretation, correctly or not, that to hold
office he would be required to adhere to the religio in a formal sense.

When I told him that I believed it was simply about respecting an
ancient tradition as opposed to assuming the mantle of a new religion,
he decided to start reading about it again, and see whether he would
like to join.

What is the official status on adherence to the religio?

Valete,
Q. Valerius Callidus





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40454 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Maxime,

Yes. I am indeed aware of this, but in its current usage it is a very negative word to use if you want to attract an good audience. No one uses it in a positive way. The word pagan falls under the same category. There are many words that are highly misunderstood by the public. The word fulsome is perhaps the best example of this. If I say "That was a fulsome speech." most people will take it as a complement. They should be quite offended instead if they knew the actual meaning. Pagan and Cult are quite like this.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: QFabiusMaxmi@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR



In a message dated 12/6/2005 7:51:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
senseiphil@... writes:

I too though of the word "CULT" right off and then an image of purple cloaks
over corpses came to mind and for some uncanny reason so did Kool Aid :-)



Marcus Cassius Philippus
You are here to learn, yes? Then understand this. All religions are
basically cults. The word comes from Latin. Cultus. To revere or worship.

We are a cult by Roman definition.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40455 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Magister Aranearius - Appointment of Scribae
Salvete, Quirites.


I. In accordance with the Lex Equitia De Vigintisexviris, I hereby
appoint the following citizens of Nova Roma as Scribae to the office of
Magister Aranearius:

Quintus Valerius Callidus
Decimus Claudius Aquilius

II. No oath of office shall be required.

III. This Edict is effective immediately.

Given this day, a.d. VII Id. Dec. MMDCCLVIII AUC (December 7th, 2005) in
the year of the Consulship of Franciscus Apulus Caesar and Gaius
Popillius Laenas.


Valete, Quirites.
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dulce bellum inexpertis.
War is sweet for those who haven't experienced it.
-- Pindaros
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40456 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
M. Lucretius Agricola Q. Fabio Maximo S.P.D.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
>
>
> A trial is about theatrics and personality, not impartiality.



Senator, is this quite seriously your belief? I can't believe that it
is so, especially as you are standing for high office.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40457 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Salvete,

I'm afraid I have to agree with Maximus. I was brought up by a lawyer myself and I did serve on a jury trial. They never asked!

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Lucretius Agricola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Behavior in NR


M. Lucretius Agricola Q. Fabio Maximo S.P.D.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
>
>
> A trial is about theatrics and personality, not impartiality.



Senator, is this quite seriously your belief? I can't believe that it
is so, especially as you are standing for high office.






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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40458 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.


The Senator is quite right. Our English "cult" derives from "cultus"
which meant "worship, reverence, veneration". It also meant "care,
tending, the keeping (of flocks)" it could also have meanings like
"education, civilization". If we think about the origins it is a very
good thing. The modern use is much narrower and decidedly negative.
Which should we prefer?

The word "pagan", likewise, has a long history and we can choose to
regard one aspect of the word (it was at one time a perjorative term,
an insult) or another aspect (it is commonly understood today in a
very different way; "one who worships in a non-Judeo-Christian
tradition, a polytheist") as primary. Such a decision is plainly
subjective.

Words like these, because of their long and varied histories, can mean
many things to many people and are thus good tinder for flame wars. I
have seen nothing here at all, regarding the words "cult" or "pagan"
that I could consider in any way original. I'm very sorry, my friends,
and I know you are all sincere, but when you pursue this issue you are
following a well-worn track indeed. Need I say that I have never seen
a definitive resolution?






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 12/6/2005 7:51:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> senseiphil@n... writes:
>
> I too though of the word "CULT" right off and then an image of
purple cloaks
> over corpses came to mind and for some uncanny reason so did Kool
Aid :-)
>
>
>
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> You are here to learn, yes? Then understand this. All religions are
> basically cults. The word comes from Latin. Cultus. To revere or
worship.
>
> We are a cult by Roman definition.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40459 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-07
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Salvete, omnes -

On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 03:23:00AM -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote:
> M. Lucretius Agricola Q. Fabio Maximo S.P.D.
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> >
> > A trial is about theatrics and personality, not impartiality.
>
> Senator, is this quite seriously your belief? I can't believe that it
> is so, especially as you are standing for high office.

"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff."
-- Cicero

It appears to be a particularly inept attempt to discredit the process -
since he can't very well argue the evidence. Abusing the plaintiff is a
dead-end alley as well, for several relatively obvious reasons.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
Whatever this may be, I fear the Greeks even when they're bringing gifts.
-- Vergil, "Aenis. The priest Laokoon's warning when seeing the Trojan horse."
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40460 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
In a message dated 12/7/2005 7:28:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wm_hogue@... writes:
Senator, is this quite seriously your belief? I can't believe that it
is so, especially as you are standing for high office.
The US Justice system is messed up. But I don't understand what that has to
do with my running for Censor. I'm I going to have contact with US Justice
Department?

When US judges urge plea bargins after one is promised to judged by a jury of
their peers,
how is this justice? The "deal" is a big part of the our current overloaded
court system.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40461 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Severus Maximo omnibusque sal.

It worries me, Maximus, that you are worried because I "don't see this". I don't see precisely what? I wrote: "Historic Roma was not a church nor a religious organization." You wrote: "Roman Republic had a religion, that was tied up into the administration of the state. It was not a church, church is a whole different ideal." So, we agree: it WAS NOT a church. And you add: "different people are here for different reasons. They love Rome, but it is the religio that is NR's intended contribution."
Allow me to quote myself in message #40436, that, unfortunately for me, it seems that you didn't read:
"I know there is ample room in Nova Roma for people like me, who don't actively sacrifice to the Gods of Rome. You and everybody can be sure that I honor them.
"I know that the Religio Romana is one of the priorities for Nova Roma. If I am
elected as Rogator, I will promote ALL the priorities of Nova Roma without any
bias, and I'll be certainly honored by taking an oath expressing my deep and
true respect for the Gods of Roma.
"(..)I have no religion at all, but if I had to choose one, I will elect the Religio Romana. Certainly, religion is not my "thing" (...) but I respect the Religio
Romana and I will defend it, if necessary.
"(...)Yes, the Religio Romana... "was an extremely important part" of Roman history,
culture, and society. (...) But it was NOT the State, nor the culture and
history. As a matter of fact, inside the Roman society coexisted several
religions... Of course, the Religio Romana was the State religion. I don't pretend to promote the divorce of the State religion from the State, quite the contrary. But, then, Roma was NOT a church nor a religious organization.
"Roma was a State, a nation, an ideal, the Civilization, the Culture... The
Religio Romana was and is, of course, extremely important, but it was not, and
it is not, all.
"(...)I think I understand very well what Nova Roma is."
I hope now you see what I see and you didn't see...

Vale et valete,

M•IVL•SEVERVS
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•GEM
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM
PROVINCIA•MEXICO•NOVƕROMƕSPQR


--
_______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.

Powered by Outblaze
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40462 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
Thank you, Senator, for clearing that up. Your original message didn't
make clear the fact that your statement "A trial is about theatrics
and personality, not impartiality" applied only to the US justice system.

As I have said many times on this list, we should all be careful about
making broad statements when we really mean to make more narrowly
qualified statements.

Ago tibi multas gratias

M. Lucr. Agricola



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/7/2005 7:28:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> wm_hogue@y... writes:
> Senator, is this quite seriously your belief? I can't believe that it
> is so, especially as you are standing for high office.
> The US Justice system is messed up. But I don't understand what
that has to
> do with my running for Censor. I'm I going to have contact with US
Justice
> Department?
>
> When US judges urge plea bargins after one is promised to judged by
a jury of
> their peers,
> how is this justice? The "deal" is a big part of the our current
overloaded
> court system.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40463 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

I suggest you check out the Pagan Pride Day project website:
http://www.paganpride.org

I have been active in my local Pagan Pride Day for the past several years.
I have done workshops at Cincinnati Pagan Pride Day, and have been a part of
the Dayton Pagan Pride Day since the beginning as Liturgy Coordinator, and
more recently as Worshop Coordinator.

I know others here in Nova Roma who have participated in their Pagan Pride
Day activities.

Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Maxime,
>
> Yes. I am indeed aware of this, but in its current usage it is a very
> negative word to use if you want to attract an good audience. No one uses it
> in a positive way. The word pagan falls under the same category. There are
> many words that are highly misunderstood by the public. The word fulsome is
> perhaps the best example of this. If I say "That was a fulsome speech." most
> people will take it as a complement. They should be quite offended instead
> if they knew the actual meaning. Pagan and Cult are quite like this.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40464 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: a.d. VI Id. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VI Idus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

Today is the Tiberinalia, a festival dedicated to the god Tiberinus,
the god of the River Tiber.

Tiberinus figures very early in the pre-history of the City of Rome.
The arrival of the Trojans in Italy began peacefully. King Latinus,
the Italian ruler, extended his hospitality, hoping that Aeneas would
prove to be the foreigner whom, according to a prophecy, his daughter
Lavinia was supposed to marry. But Latinus�s wife, Amata, had other
ideas. She meant for Lavinia to marry Turnus, a local suitor. Amata
and Turnus cultivated enmity toward the newly arrived Trojans.
Meanwhile, Ascanius hunted a stag that was a pet of the local
herdsmen. A fight broke out, and several people were killed. Turnus,
riding this current of anger, began a war. Aeneas, at the suggestion
of the river god Tiberinus, sailed north up the Tiber to seek military
support among the neighboring tribes:

"'T was night; and weary nature lull'd asleep
The birds of air, and fishes of the deep,
And beasts, and mortal men. The Trojan chief
Was laid on Tiber's banks, oppress'd with grief,
And found in silent slumber late relief.
Then, thro' the shadows of the poplar wood,
Arose the father of the Roman flood;
An azure robe was o'er his body spread,
A wreath of shady reeds adorn'd his head:
Thus, manifest to sight, the god appear'd,
And with these pleasing words his sorrow cheer'd:
'Undoubted offspring of ethereal race,
O long expected in this promis'd place!
Who thro' the foes hast borne thy banish'd gods,
Restor'd them to their hearths, and old abodes;
This is thy happy home, the clime where fate
Ordains thee to restore the Trojan state.
Fear not! The war shall end in lasting peace,
And all the rage of haughty Juno cease.
And that this nightly vision may not seem
Th' effect of fancy, or an idle dream,
A sow beneath an oak shall lie along,
All white herself, and white her thirty young.
When thirty rolling years have run their race,
Thy son Ascanius, on this empty space,
Shall build a royal town, of lasting fame,
Which from this omen shall receive the name.
Time shall approve the truth. For what remains,
And how with sure success to crown thy pains,
With patience next attend. A banish'd band,
Driv'n with Evander from th' Arcadian land,
Have planted here, and plac'd on high their walls;
Their town the founder Pallanteum calls,
Deriv'd from Pallas, his great-grandsire's name:
But the fierce Latians old possession claim,
With war infesting the new colony.
These make thy friends, and on their aid rely.
To thy free passage I submit my streams.
Wake, son of Venus, from thy pleasing dreams;
And, when the setting stars are lost in day,
To Juno's pow'r thy just devotion pay;
With sacrifice the wrathful queen appease:
Her pride at length shall fall, her fury cease.
When thou return'st victorious from the war,
Perform thy vows to me with grateful care.
The god am I, whose yellow water flows
Around these fields, and fattens as it goes:
Tiber my name; among the rolling floods
Renown'd on earth, esteem'd among the gods.
This is my certain seat. In times to come,
My waves shall wash the walls of mighty Rome.'" - Tiberinus to Aeneas;
Vergil, The Aeneid VIII

Tiberinus also played an essential role in the lives of Romulus and
Remus. Before their lives began, Romulus and Remus's grandfather
Numitor and his brother Amulius received the throne of Alba Longa upon
their father�s death. Numitor received the sovereign powers as his
birth right while Amulius received the royal treasury, including the
gold Aeneas brought with him from Troy. But because Amulius held the
treasury, thus having more power than his brother, he dethroned
Numitor as the rightful king. Out of fear that Numitor�s daughter,
Rhea Silvia, would produce children that would one day overthrow him
as king, he forced Rhea to become a Vestal Virgin, priestesses sworn
to celibacy.

However, one night Mars, the god of war, came to Rhea in the temple of
Vesta and she bore him two twin boys of remarkable size and beauty,
later named Romulus and Remus. Amulius was enraged and had Rhea placed
in prison and ordered the death of the twins by exposure. However, the
servant ordered to kill the twins could not. He placed the two in a
cradle and laid the cradle on the banks of the Tiber river and went
away. The river, which was in flood, rose and gently carried the
cradle and the twins downstream. Romulus and Remus were rescued by
the river god Tiberinus and placed the twins upon the Palatine Hill.
There, they were nursed by a she-wolf underneath a fig-tree and were
fed by a woodpecker, two animals that were sacred to Mars.

"Near this place grew a wild fig-tree, which they called Ruminalis,
either from Romulus (as it is vulgarly thought), or from ruminating,
because cattle did usually in the heat of the day seek cover under it,
and there chew the cud; or, better, from the suckling of these
children there, for the ancients called the dug or teat of any
creature ruma; and there is a tutelar goddess of the rearing of
children whom they still call Rumilia, in sacrificing to whom they use
no wine, but make libations of milk. While the infants lay here,
history tells us, a she-wolf nursed them, and a woodpecker constantly
fed and watched them; these creatures are esteemed holy to the god
Mars; the woodpecker the Latins still especially worship and honour.
Which things, as much as any, gave credit to what the mother of the
children said, that their father was the god Mars; though some say
that it was a mistake put upon her by Amulius, who himself had come to
her dressed up in armour." - Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Romulus"

Romulus and Remus were then discovered by Faustulus, a shepherd for
Amulius, who brought the children to his home. Faustulus and his wife,
Acca Larentia, raised the boys as their own.


Today is also the final day of the Faunalia.


"What slender youth, bedew'd with liquid odors,
Courts thee on roses in some pleasant cave,
Pyrrha? For whom bind'st thou
In wreaths thy golden hair,
Plain in thy neatness? O how oft shall he
Of faith and changed gods complain, and seas
Rough with black winds, and storms
Unwonted shall admire!
Who now enjoys thee credulous, all gold,
Who, always vacant, always amiable
Hopes thee, of flattering gales
Unmindful. Hapless they
To whom thou untried seem'st fair. Me, in my vow'd
Picture, the sacred wall declares to have hung,
My dank and dropping weeds
To the stern god of sea." - Horace, Odes I.5 "To Pyrrha" (trans. John
Milton)

On this day in 68 B.C., the poet Horace was born. Horace created many
of the rules of stagecraft that still exist today:

"A tragic hero should not speak in the same rhythm as a comic one.
Characters should be consistent with themselves, and should conform to
the general expectation: boys should be childish, youth fond of sport,
reckless and fickle, mature men should be businesslike and prudent,
while old men should remain praisers of the past, sluggish and
grudging. The poet should not try to change the character of
well-known figures of the stage, such as Agamemnon, Medea, Hercules;
at the same time, he should not stick too closely to the stock of
subjects. When beginning a play, avoid pomposity and grandiloquence;
but when once the play is launched, rush the spectator on through the
action, leaving out the ungrateful parts of the story. Do not present
ugly things on the stage. The traditional structure of plots should be
used, but such contrivances as the god-from-the-machine should not be
worked to death. Keep to the three-actor play, and remember to use the
chorus for the expression of moral sentiments and religious tone.
Above all things, stick to the Greek models. Some people may have been
fools enough to admire Plautus, but that is no reason why everyone
should do so. Plautus is rude and barbarous, not worthy of study
beside the Greeks. Every play should either instruct or
delight--better if it does both. "'Mix pleasure and profit, and you
are safe.'" - from M.F. Bellinger, "A Short History of the Drama" pp.
89-90.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Plutarch (http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Plutarch.html), Vergil
(http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/aeneid/)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40465 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Modianus,

> Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.

Yup. The Pagan Federation has never worried about that
word and we've been around for 32 years.

Vale,
Diana Octavia


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40466 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Modianus et Diana,

You are both correct. Some people are not put off by the word pagan. Some people are not put off by the word nigger either but they are in the vast minority. Just the same a parade of these people could swamp a small city for a weekend if they all converged in one city. The vast majority of people do however find it off-putting. When I worked at advertising agencies, we used to do marketing surveys pretty often. You would be surprised at the results we got by substituting just one word. A simple example was when the word "gay" started being used instead of the word "homosexual". It did wonders for the homosexual community. The perception is much different in the vast majority with one versus the other. Yet, just as you all stated that there is nothing wrong with the word "pagan" or "cult", the perception of these two words are negative within our modern society.

Now someone said here that they would prefer quality versus quantity, who wouldn't? Now, lets look at the collegiate sports world for a minute, it can be instructional. With rare exceptions, the larger schools consistently put out the best teams because they have a much larger pool of candidates to pick the talent from.

If all you want are "pagans" to join Nova Roma, that pool is going to be quite small compared to the pool we will have if non-pagans are also joining us in great quantities. Pagans may be a minority in NR, they already are, but they will always remain our most precious citizens since the very foundations of Nova Roma are the religio, so stop worrying about this. The simple substitution of one word in our webpage can make quite a difference in recruitment rates. A phrase such as "dedicated to the resurgence of the Religion of Rome as well as..." instead of the blunt statement:

We are more than a pagan religious organization, although we are that, too.

could mean a world of difference in the public perception. Nothing would change in our organization except the substitution of one small phrase and the difference in recruitment rates could indeed be staggering because of it. Simply replace the negative connotations among non-pagans with a positive one - just like gay vs.homosexual.

This is the last post by me on this subject. My "two dinariis worth" have now been heard in the Forum. Thank you all, now let get off the rostra :-)

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kling
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

I suggest you check out the Pagan Pride Day project website:
http://www.paganpride.org

I have been active in my local Pagan Pride Day for the past several years.
I have done workshops at Cincinnati Pagan Pride Day, and have been a part of
the Dayton Pagan Pride Day since the beginning as Liturgy Coordinator, and
more recently as Worshop Coordinator.

I know others here in Nova Roma who have participated in their Pagan Pride
Day activities.

Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Maxime,
>
> Yes. I am indeed aware of this, but in its current usage it is a very
> negative word to use if you want to attract an good audience. No one uses it
> in a positive way. The word pagan falls under the same category. There are
> many words that are highly misunderstood by the public. The word fulsome is
> perhaps the best example of this. If I say "That was a fulsome speech." most
> people will take it as a complement. They should be quite offended instead
> if they knew the actual meaning. Pagan and Cult are quite like this.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40467 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Salve Romanai!!
A. Apollonius Ti. Numerio omnibusque sal.

> recently returned from overseas Sorry I missed
> things.

Welcome back. :)



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40468 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete Diana et omnes,

Actually I always got a laugh out of the word, "heathen". I've been
called that for missing church services to drinking wine in front of
sects who prohibit alcohol.

I think that if you really get into Nova Roma and do things such as
holding offices, participating on the lists and in various
sodalistas, take courses and all, then I could see where it might
become too much or time consuming for some. I know of various people
here who just upped and disappeared and not finding any negative
vital stats on them as well as ML quarrels, I assume that this was
the case.

Personally I try to make this more of an important hobby. I don't
like watching sports, game shows, reality TV, especially going
golfing or lying on beaches or looking for mail order brides; I
justify that my free time might be better spent here where you can
learn things of interest and get practice at them at the same time.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Diana Octavia Aventina
<dianaaventina@y...> wrote:
>
> Salve Modianus,
>
> > Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.
>
> Yup. The Pagan Federation has never worried about that
> word and we've been around for 32 years.
>
> Vale,
> Diana Octavia
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40469 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
A. Apollonius M. Cassio omnibusque sal.

I shan't go into C. Buteo's own religious views, but I
think it's important to realize that some ancient
Romans - and I don't mean Christians, I mean people we
would quite readily call "pagans", who participated in
all the normal traditional religious rites - believed
in a single divine entity, of which the various gods
were really just aspects or manifestations. It wasn't
exactly a common view, but it was certainly a view
some people held, and it didn't stop them
participating fully in traditional Roman religious
life, holding priesthoods, &c.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40470 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit

This is the cause so much discussion:

"We are more than a pagan religious organization, although we are that,
too."

First off, Pagan should be capitalized. You wouldn't write christian or
jewish, you would write Christian or Jewish.

If Pagan was replaced I think people would be confused with "Religion of
Rome" and assume we were promoting Roman Catholicism.

What about: "We are more than an ancient Roman polytheistic religious
organization, although we are that, too."

Ironically, there were words and phrases in use that many people didn't like
in the past.

Such as... equality, feminism, women voting, gay rights, etc... It is a
good thing the level of tolerance has increased in this country -- contrary
to what the religious right would have.

Vale;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/8/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Modianus et Diana,
>
> You are both correct. Some people are not put off by the word pagan. Some
> people are not put off by the word nigger either but they are in the vast
> minority. Just the same a parade of these people could swamp a small city
> for a weekend if they all converged in one city. The vast majority of people
> do however find it off-putting. When I worked at advertising agencies, we
> used to do marketing surveys pretty often. You would be surprised at the
> results we got by substituting just one word. A simple example was when the
> word "gay" started being used instead of the word "homosexual". It did
> wonders for the homosexual community. The perception is much different in
> the vast majority with one versus the other. Yet, just as you all stated
> that there is nothing wrong with the word "pagan" or "cult", the perception
> of these two words are negative within our modern society.
>
> Now someone said here that they would prefer quality versus quantity, who
> wouldn't? Now, lets look at the collegiate sports world for a minute, it can
> be instructional. With rare exceptions, the larger schools consistently put
> out the best teams because they have a much larger pool of candidates to
> pick the talent from.
>
> If all you want are "pagans" to join Nova Roma, that pool is going to be
> quite small compared to the pool we will have if non-pagans are also joining
> us in great quantities. Pagans may be a minority in NR, they already are,
> but they will always remain our most precious citizens since the very
> foundations of Nova Roma are the religio, so stop worrying about this. The
> simple substitution of one word in our webpage can make quite a difference
> in recruitment rates. A phrase such as "dedicated to the resurgence of the
> Religion of Rome as well as..." instead of the blunt statement:
>
> We are more than a pagan religious organization, although we are that,
> too.
>
> could mean a world of difference in the public perception. Nothing would
> change in our organization except the substitution of one small phrase and
> the difference in recruitment rates could indeed be staggering because of
> it. Simply replace the negative connotations among non-pagans with a
> positive one - just like gay vs.homosexual.
>
> This is the last post by me on this subject. My "two dinariis worth" have
> now been heard in the Forum. Thank you all, now let get off the rostra :-)
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Kling
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
>
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit
>
> I suggest you check out the Pagan Pride Day project website:
> http://www.paganpride.org
>
> I have been active in my local Pagan Pride Day for the past several
> years.
> I have done workshops at Cincinnati Pagan Pride Day, and have been a
> part of
> the Dayton Pagan Pride Day since the beginning as Liturgy Coordinator,
> and
> more recently as Worshop Coordinator.
>
> I know others here in Nova Roma who have participated in their Pagan
> Pride
> Day activities.
>
> Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez <senseiphil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Maxime,
> >
> > Yes. I am indeed aware of this, but in its current usage it is a very
> > negative word to use if you want to attract an good audience. No one
> uses it
> > in a positive way. The word pagan falls under the same category. There
> are
> > many words that are highly misunderstood by the public. The word
> fulsome is
> > perhaps the best example of this. If I say "That was a fulsome
> speech." most
> > people will take it as a complement. They should be quite offended
> instead
> > if they knew the actual meaning. Pagan and Cult are quite like this.
> >
> > Vires et honos,
> > Marcus Cassius Philippus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40471 From: annia@ciarin.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve,
Actually, pagan doesn't have to be capitalized. Unlike Christianity and
Judaism, it is not the name of a religion, it is a classification of a type
of religion. It is a descriptive term, not a proper noun. Also, christian
and jew similarly do no have to be capitalized as they aren't proper nouns
either. Capitalization is just a way to give respect for those religions.

Vale,

Annia Minucia-Tiberia Audens Sempronia

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Kling" <tau.athanasios@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo salutem dicit
>
> This is the cause so much discussion:
>
> "We are more than a pagan religious organization, although we are that,
> too."
>
> First off, Pagan should be capitalized. You wouldn't write christian or
> jewish, you would write Christian or Jewish.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40472 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR (QFM)
A. Apollonius C. Minucio omnibusque sal.

> > All the flaws you've indentified, and I know I've
> said
> > this before but it bears saying again, are outside
> the
> > judicial system.
>
> I disagree completely. The Praetores _are_ part of
> the justice system.
> The fact that replacing them is not part of the
> judicial process is not
> relevant; arguing that it is, as you seem to be
> doing, is like saying
> that the contractor who hired your plumber is not
> responsible for the
> plumber's incompetence.

That's a false analogy because it supposes that the
"contractor" who "hires" the praetores is the judicial
system. The praetores are chosen by the people. If you
want to blame the praetores' incompetence on the
people who choose them rather than on the praetores
themselves, you'll have to blame the voters, including
yourself if you voted for any of them. Now, I don't
deny that having incompetent praetores severely
handicaps the judicial system, but the fact that a
praetor is incompetent is not a systemic fault which
can be fixed by tinkering with judicial processes or
institutions. The only way to make sure the praetores
are competent would be to have them chosen by some
method other than election. As long as you have
elected praetores, you're going to have the
possibility that the voters will choose a dud. The
system already contains a back-up by having two
praetores and, if they both fail, two consules. If
they're *all* duds, there's not much more anyone can
do about it.

There are two changes which would help a little bit,
both of which I've been advocating for the last couple
of years, specifically increasing the number of
praetores to four (more back-up) and making past
service as aedile or tribune a necessary qualification
for the office of praetor (which would increase the
chances of getting praetores with a decent level of
administrative experience). But as long as they're
elected, there's always going to be that weakness in
the system.

> > Remember that all I've been saying all along is
> that
> > people should try the system first. If it doesn't
> > work, then of course they can try something else.
> You
> > tried it, it didn't work, and I wouldn't blame you
> at
> > all for giving up on it for that particular case.
> But
> > you've gone beyond that by saying in pretty clear
> > terms that you think, from your experience, that
> Nova
> > Roma is chronically incapable of providing
> justice.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I fail to see where I've said that. Can you point it
> out? In fact, I
> recall saying that _fixing_ the system _would_ grant
> it the ability to
> provide justice, which is the opposite of what
> you're saying here.

Oh, for heaven's sake, are you going to make me trawl
back through your previous messages and quote yourself
back at you? I thought that was something I only
needed to do when Q. Maximus started contradicting
himself, but I'll do it if you really want. But
perhaps you could just go back through them yourself
and try reading them with an objective eye, and I
think you'll see that, taken as a whole, they give the
strong impression that you think there is not and is
unlikely ever to be any point in anyone using our
judicial system. In fact I think you say pretty much
that even in this very message, in the following five
paragraphs, which I'll quote in full:

> Corde, I understand your point, but I think you're
> trying to fit an
> elephant into a mouse's skin. I, alone, am not
> responsible for people
> not trusting or not using the Nova Roma justice
> system. The fact is that
> it _is_ a hassle, it has _not_ shown itself to be
> effective, and it is
> of minimum usefulness in any case. What possible
> satisfaction can be
> gained out of using it? "Wow, I got X. Nemo
> Idioticus to apologize to me
> after calling me a "freakin' tosser" on the Main
> List. He even got fined
> $5. *Now* I'm powerful and cool and will get all the
> girls!"
>
> In the case of Maximus, what I would ideally like to
> see is him dragged
> off to a night in the clink with "Big Bubba" as a
> cellmate - just to
> teach him that threatening people with violence has
> consequences. *Nova
> Roma CANNOT provide that no matter what.*
>
> Let's assume that I've filed suit against him here;
> assuming that all
> goes well from my perspective, and he is ejected
> from Nova Roma. What
> have I, personally, gained out of the experience, in
> exchange for what
> promises to be a large chunk of my time? The answer
> is "nothing". Nova
> Roma - its citizens, at least - have gained the
> benefit of greater
> security by preventing him from seeing their private
> info (which they
> can do anyway by not electing him), but for myself?
> Nothing.
>
> So, the trade for most people in a case like this
> one would look like
> this: investment of *real* time - which most of us
> consider quite
> valuable - in exchange for either _no_ benefit or
> some small virtual
> benefit. Any wonder that people don't do it?
>
> It ain't me, Corde. The game's just not worth the
> candle - and *that*
> would be the equation if the system was guaranteed
> to work, which it's
> not.

Now, I don't think it's just me who's going to read
the above text as saying that you think our judicial
system is incapable of producing satisfactory results.
And yes, if your idea of a satisfactory result is
putting people in jail, you're right. Personally I
can't see what satisfaction anyone can get from
putting someone else in jail except satisfaction of a
desire for revenge, and I know you'd agree that's not
what justice is about.

> [wry grin] If anything, amice, it's _you_ who are
> being the discouraging
> factor here, at least for me. You've got me looking
> for reasons why I
> shouldn't go through with it - although I'm going
> to, anyway.

Hey, I'm not in the business of encouraging people to
sue each other. If someone doesn't want to sue, that's
fine. My concern is to see that if someone *does* want
to seek redress against another citizen he does it
*first* within our system and only later, if at all,
outside. Barring incompetent magistrates, which, as
I've explained, there's really nothing we can do about
except elect better ones next time, the system should
be pretty easy to use. If even at normal efficiency
it's too much hassle for a citizen to use, then his
complaint probably isn't that important anyway. But if
someone can be bothered to spend time and money
phoning or visiting the local police station, I don't
see why he shouldn't spend a less time and no money
writing an e-mail to the praetores.

> > What I'm objecting to is your
> > characterisation of the entire judicial system as
> > fundamentally useless, which can only serve to
> > discourage people from seeking justice, and
> > discouraging people from seeking justice is at
> least
> > as significant a contribution to an absence of
> justice
> > as encouraging them to seek it and then failing to
> > provide it.
>
> Again, I disagree. That's a slippery-slope argument
> that makes me
> responsible for the NR judicial system. People don't
> seek justice
> because I recommend it; they seek it because they
> *need* its aid.
> Claiming that I'm responsible for it, or lack of it,
> is patently
> wrong.

Every time I suggest you might be responsible for
anything you reject the suggestion on the basis that
I'm trying to hold you *solely* responsible. At no
point have I ever said so. But it's perfectly possible
for more than one person to be responsible for
something. If A holds one end of a garotte and B holds
the other end and they garotte someone with it,
they're both responsible, right? If C gave them the
garotte and paid them to do it, he's responsible too.
If C was working for a peculiarly democratic mob which
takes decisions by committee D and he was acting on
orders from the committee, then committee D is also
responsible, or at least those members of it who voted
"yes" are. Are we in agreement so far? Now, imagine
that is standing by and sees A and B getting out of
their car, and A and B, being rather unhappy about the
idea of garotting this person, go up to E and say
"we've been told to kill this guy, do you think we
should do it?", and E says, "in my experience killing
people has always been satisfactory and worthwhile". A
and B go ahead and kill their victim. Are you happy to
say that E, too, is to some extent responsible, while
it is nonetheless true that A, B, C, and D are also
all responsible?

> > Let me reassure you: our judicial system does not
> > require the defendant's consent in order for a
> trial
> > to be held! That really would be a useless system.
> And
> > all trials are public by default, so there's no
> need
> > for any special procedure.
>
> Ah - I'd missed that last point. Everything that
> happened with my case
> was non-public; my bad assumption, then. As I've
> stated, I certainly
> have no problem with it being public.

The trial itself is public by default. The proceedings
up to the beginning of the trial may or may not be
public. There's certainly no rule which prohibits the
accuser from making his accusation in public, although
the praetores are not obliged to respond to it in
public.

> > 1. No active praetores.
> >
> > GONE: we currently have at least one active
> praetor,
> > and four active candidates for praetor next year.
> >
> > 2. Inadequate mechanism for coping with inactive
> > praetores.
> >
> > GONE: there are two active consules who can take
> up
> > the slack, and no doubt the same will be true next
> > year. It is also now easier to remove vanished
> > magistrates.
> >
> > What other problems were there?
>
> A praetor who was in office and refused to do his
> job; i.e., Noricus
> accepting G. Iulius Scaurus' ridiculous statement
> that I must "show
> damage", and the failure to issue a Nota against
> Maximus despite the
> promise that I received to that effect.

Okay, let's add:

3. Incompetent praetor.

GONE: well, I think we can agree that no magistrate of
Nova Roma has ever been as "gone" as Noricus!

As for the nota, it's hard to say whether that was
ever really a "problem" in the first place. The
censores are not supposed to issue notae for criminal
offences. To do so would be to substitute their own
unfettered discretion for due judicial process. A nota
may be issued following a criminal conviction, or,
more usually, may be issued for behaviour which is
unacceptable but not criminal. Now, I haven't looked
at the facts of your case so I can't venture an
opinion on whether we're talking about a criminal
offence or not. If we are, the censores were perfectly
right not to issue a nota. If not, then the censores
perhaps ought to have issued one, but notae are and
always will be purely at the discretion of the
censores, and if they choose not to issue one that's
that. In regard to the question whether justice is
adequately done it's really not relevant, because a
nota is not a judicial penalty and shouldn't be
regarded as such.

The real problem is that someone promised you there
would be a nota. If a nota was appropriate and was
promised, then failing to deliver it was unacceptable,
but it's really hard to see what can be done to stop
that sort of thing happen in the future unless we make
all promises legally binding, which is not a very
desirable solution. If, on the other hand, a nota was
not appropriate and someone promised you one, then
that someone was just incompetent. I've forgotten who
you said it was.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40473 From: Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
Salve.

Sensei Phil Perez wrote:

> If all you want are "pagans" to join Nova Roma, that pool is going to
> be quite small compared to the pool we will have if non-pagans are
> also joining us in great quantities. Pagans may be a minority in NR,
> they already are, but they will always remain our most precious
> citizens since the very foundations of Nova Roma are the religio, so
> stop worrying about this. The simple substitution of one word in our
> webpage can make quite a difference in recruitment rates. A phrase
> such as "dedicated to the resurgence of the Religion of Rome as well
> as..." instead of the blunt statement:
>
> We are more than a pagan religious organization, although we are that,
> too.
>
> could mean a world of difference in the public perception. Nothing
> would change in our organization except the substitution of one small
> phrase and the difference in recruitment rates could indeed be
> staggering because of it. Simply replace the negative connotations
> among non-pagans with a positive one - just like gay vs.homosexual.
>
> This is the last post by me on this subject. My "two dinariis worth"
> have now been heard in the Forum. Thank you all, now let get off the
> rostra :-)
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
>
While you make a good point about the controversial nature of the word
pagan (it can be controversial even among "pagans"), I'm not sure if any
reasonable alternative would not ultimately have the same effect. In my
experience, if you say "Roman religion" or "the Religion of Rome" most
people automatically assume you are talking about the Roman Catholic
Church, which of course has been "the Religion of Rome" for the past
1500 years or so. So I think we need to be more precise than that. One
possibility is "the traditional polytheistic Religion of the ancient
Romans". So we could say "...dedicated to the resurgence of the
traditional polytheistic Religion of the ancient Romans as well as..."
Now while such a statement is unlikely to produce the same kind of
knee-jerk reaction as using the word "pagan", most people who would be
bothered by the word "pagan" (once they think about it for a second) are
probably not going to be particularly thrilled by "traditional
polytheistic Religion of the ancient Romans" either.

I personally don't have a problem replacing "pagan" with "polytheist" or
something similar, as many practitioners of the Religio and other
ancient faiths are ambivalent (at best) towards the word pagan, but I
don't think it will make much difference to those folks who want nothing
to do with an organization that is involved in promoting polytheism.

Vale bene,

--
Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
Pontifex et Minervae Aedis Sacerdos
Legate Massachusetts Regio
c.minucius.hadrianus@...

"We are all, so far as we inherit the civilization of Europe,
still citizens of the Roman Empire, and time as not yet proved
Virgil wrong when he wrote /nec tempora pono: imperium sine fine dedi./"

-T.S. Eliot

"/His ego nec metas rerum nec tempora pono: imperium sine fine dedi./"

"For the achievement of these people I fix neither spatial boundaries or
temporal limits: I have given them empire without end."

-Virgil, /Aeneid/ I.278,279
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40474 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR (QFM)
Salve, A. Apollonius Cordus.

On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 03:13:17PM +0000, A. Apollonius Cordus wrote:
>
> > But
> > > you've gone beyond that by saying in pretty clear
> > > terms that you think, from your experience, that
> > Nova
> > > Roma is chronically incapable of providing
> > justice.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > I fail to see where I've said that. Can you point it
> > out? In fact, I
> > recall saying that _fixing_ the system _would_ grant
> > it the ability to
> > provide justice, which is the opposite of what
> > you're saying here.
>
> Oh, for heaven's sake, are you going to make me trawl
> back through your previous messages and quote yourself
> back at you? I thought that was something I only
> needed to do when Q. Maximus started contradicting
> himself, but I'll do it if you really want.

No, Corde. I'm not going to "make" you do anything. However, I do think
that this particular conversation has reached the end of its usefulness.
You consider only your own reading of what I've said to be objective,
and are starting to stray over into unpleasantness - so we'll just leave
it at that.

My, isn't the weather lovely in Rome this time of year!

(The answer is "No, it's not" -
http://www.worldweatherserver.com/weather_in_ITZZ0001.aspx)
:)


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Epistula non erubescit.
A letter doesn't blush.
-- Cicero, "Epistulae ad familiares"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40475 From: marcushoratius Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: SPAM: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
Salvete Quirites omnes

The membership of Nova Roma includes Jews, Christians, secularists,
and polytheists of many different tradtions. Perhaps a phrase to
consider is "the religious traditions of ancient Romans". This
would better represent the cultural aspect of religion in Roman
society and would be inclusive of the diversity that existed both in
ancient times and in Nova Roma. Questions might still arise over the
meaning of that phrase, but it would better express, I think, a
respect for all religious traditions related to ancient Rome in a
manner that would benefit Nova Roma.

Valete optime
M Moravius Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
<c.minucius.hadrianus@n...> wrote:
>
> Salve.
>
> Sensei Phil Perez wrote:
>
> > If all you want are "pagans" to join Nova Roma, that pool is
going to
> > be quite small compared to the pool we will have if non-pagans
are
> > also joining us in great quantities. Pagans may be a minority in
NR,
> > they already are, but they will always remain our most precious
> > citizens since the very foundations of Nova Roma are the
religio, so
> > stop worrying about this. The simple substitution of one word in
our
> > webpage can make quite a difference in recruitment rates. A
phrase
> > such as "dedicated to the resurgence of the Religion of Rome as
well
> > as..." instead of the blunt statement:
> >
> > We are more than a pagan religious organization, although we are
that,
> > too.
> >
> > could mean a world of difference in the public perception.
Nothing
> > would change in our organization except the substitution of one
small
> > phrase and the difference in recruitment rates could indeed be
> > staggering because of it. Simply replace the negative
connotations
> > among non-pagans with a positive one - just like gay
vs.homosexual.
> >
> > This is the last post by me on this subject. My "two dinariis
worth"
> > have now been heard in the Forum. Thank you all, now let get off
the
> > rostra :-)
> >
> > Vires et honos,
> > Marcus Cassius Philippus
> >
> While you make a good point about the controversial nature of the
word
> pagan (it can be controversial even among "pagans"), I'm not sure
if any
> reasonable alternative would not ultimately have the same effect.
In my
> experience, if you say "Roman religion" or "the Religion of Rome"
most
> people automatically assume you are talking about the Roman
Catholic
> Church, which of course has been "the Religion of Rome" for the
past
> 1500 years or so. So I think we need to be more precise than that.
One
> possibility is "the traditional polytheistic Religion of the
ancient
> Romans". So we could say "...dedicated to the resurgence of the
> traditional polytheistic Religion of the ancient Romans as well
as..."
> Now while such a statement is unlikely to produce the same kind of
> knee-jerk reaction as using the word "pagan", most people who
would be
> bothered by the word "pagan" (once they think about it for a
second) are
> probably not going to be particularly thrilled by "traditional
> polytheistic Religion of the ancient Romans" either.
>
> I personally don't have a problem replacing "pagan"
with "polytheist" or
> something similar, as many practitioners of the Religio and other
> ancient faiths are ambivalent (at best) towards the word pagan,
but I
> don't think it will make much difference to those folks who want
nothing
> to do with an organization that is involved in promoting
polytheism.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> --
> Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> Pontifex et Minervae Aedis Sacerdos
> Legate Massachusetts Regio
> c.minucius.hadrianus@n...
>
> "We are all, so far as we inherit the civilization of Europe,
> still citizens of the Roman Empire, and time as not yet proved
> Virgil wrong when he wrote /nec tempora pono: imperium sine fine
dedi./"
>
> -T.S. Eliot
>
> "/His ego nec metas rerum nec tempora pono: imperium sine fine
dedi./"
>
> "For the achievement of these people I fix neither spatial
boundaries or
> temporal limits: I have given them empire without end."
>
> -Virgil, /Aeneid/ I.278,279
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40476 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
In a message dated 12/8/2005 12:58:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
marcusiuliusseverus@... writes:
But it was NOT the State, nor the culture and
history. As a matter of fact, inside the Roman society coexisted several
religions... Of course, the Religio Romana was the State religion. I don't
pretend to promote the divorce of the State religion from the State, quite the
contrary. But, then, Roma was NOT a church nor a religious organization.
"Roma was a State, a nation, an ideal, the Civilization, the Culture... The
Religio Romana was and is, of course, extremely important, but it was not, and
it is not, all.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Without the Religio Romania there would be no Rome. Rome evolved into
something
else later, the Rome that you admire, but without the Religio, there would be
no Rome.
Just a bunch of Latinum tribes camping along the Tiber.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40477 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Revised Proposal for Magisterial Resignations
Gaius Popillius Laenas Quiritibus salutem plurimam dicit,

Q. Caecilius Metellus has pointed out to me that at least on one
occasion a magistrate has announced a resignation effective at some
future date. Cordus has revised our proposal to indicate that such
an announce ment is not a resignation until such effective date is
reached. My thanks to them both.

The revised text follows:

Lex Popillia de Magistratu Eiurando

I. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
magistracy shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold that magistracy.

II. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
citizenship shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold any and all his magistracies.

III. An announcement of intention to cease to hold
office at some later time or to cease to be a citizen
at some later time is not an announcement of
resignation for the purposes of this lex.

IV. A magistrate who resigns his magistracy and later
changes his or her mind may stand as a candidate in
the election to fill the vacancy without penalty.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40478 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Quintus Suetonius Paulinus,

> Actually I always got a laugh out of the word,
> "heathen".

LOL! Me too! I can't help it, but I always seem to
thing of cave men or at best giant wild-looking Viking
men carrying off women :-)
Vale,
Diana

__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40479 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: AGREED, MAXIMUS
Severus Maximo omnibusque sal.

First of all, you are right: we are just going to have to agree to
disagree...

But this is no all. You wrote:

"Without the Religio Romana there would be no Rome. Rome evolved into
something
else later, the Rome that you admire, but without the Religio, there
would be no Rome.
Just a bunch of Latinum tribes camping along the Tiber."

I agree.

Vale,

M•IVL•SEVERVS
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•GEM
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM
PROVINCIA•MEXICO•NOVƕROMƕSPQR

--
_______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.

Powered by Outblaze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40480 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Philippus,

You've made quite a few good points.

<Nothing would change in our organization
> except the substitution of one small phrase and the
> difference in recruitment rates could indeed be
> staggering because of it. Simply replace the
> negative connotations among non-pagans with a
> positive one -

I'm sure that you are correct that there are lots of
non-pagans who are offended by that phrase and then
click to the next website...

Let's say we change the website to suit those people's
tastes. Don't you think that they'd flip when they
find out that there are pagans here amongst them? I
think that the backlash of misrepresenting our
citizenship would be worse. We could be accused of
really being a 'cult' (the crazy kool-aid type).

> Now someone said here that they would prefer quality
> versus quantity, who wouldn't?

That would be my Paterfamilias Marcus Octavius. I have
to agree with him. Since our citizenship consists of
various nationalities, races, cultures and religions,
we shouldn't start changing things around in order to
attract the intolerant.

> Thank you all, now let get off the rostra :-)
Not necessary, the two of us are nice and cozy up here
:-)

Vale!
Diana



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40481 From: os390account Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Salve et Salvete,

> Without the Religio Romania there would be no Rome. Rome evolved
> into something else later, the Rome that you admire, but without the
> Religio, there would be no Rome.
> Just a bunch of Latinum tribes camping along the Tiber.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus

The Religio was an aspect, which contributed to the whole of the
concept of what was Rome. However, when those practices became the
officially recognized mode of communion within the state of what
became Rome, then that Religio became state sponsored, and thus the
Religio Romana was born. A blossom of the State, yet whose seeds are
the emerging state, and a collection of beliefs and rituals, and whose
soil was the fertile groups of inhabitant in which this culture
germinated.

Pardon the hortacultural methaphors, but to paraphrase Arthur C.
Clarke, we sow, we reap, and sometimes, dispassionately, we weed.

This religious discussion might be better suited for the Religio list
rather than the ML.

I must say that I'm rather displeased with continuous stream of
Ionesco-ish comedic attempts at playing the Logician. It would be
amusing, but for the great potential for misinterpretation by new
citizens reading the list, and expressing dismay at what they see. It
is difficult for the newcomer, but doubly so when confronted with such
petty bickering about every little thing, even something such as how
the Religio should be interpreted.

If we don't like our mission statement, then let's change it. Let us
take a survey as to what our fellow citizens believe we are and should
become. This way we can present a unified and consistent face to
newcomers and oldtimers alike, without coercion or exclusion of
members. We can continue to evolve and become a reflection of the
cosmopolitan society that was Rome then, and is Nova Roma now.

*falls off soapbox*

Vale et Valete!
Q. Valerius Callidus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40482 From: marcushoratius Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: WHAT I SEE AND YOU DON'T SEE...
Salve Fabi

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
<snippet>
> Without the Religio Romania there would be no Rome. Rome evolved
into
> something
> else later, the Rome that you admire, but without the Religio,
there would be
> no Rome.
> Just a bunch of Latinum tribes camping along the Tiber.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>

That is not quite true, is it? Recall that Romulus and Remus
brought the aupsicia from Alba Longa. When they arrived they found
already living there tribes with their own sanctuary dedicated to
Jupiter on the Capitoline Hill and a cultus for Hercules that the
Romans adopted. That Titus Tatius introduced more into Rome from
the Sabine traditions. That the formal aspects of the State
religion were not introduced until the time of Numa Pompilius. That
Marcius introduced other aspects of the religio from other Latin
cities. That under Tarquinius more was added from Etruria, from
Campania, and also from within Roman societ by Attus Navius. The
cultus of the Aeneas, that of the Indigites, and the Penates, so
central to Rome's self identity, was not adopted until the fourth
century BCE. Archaeological evidence also suggests that the cultus
of the Di Manes existed at Gabii at least by 1000 BCE, and other
evidence also shows that there was a religio among the Latins well
before Rome was ever founded.

The religio Romana is not and never was solely a State religion.
Early in the Res Publica there were even two public religions at
Rome as the culti Deorum of the Aventine that were maintained by the
plebeians was not fully integrated into the State religion until the
Middle Republic. Even under the Principate Ovid speaks of public
festivals conducted by the plebeians that were not part of the
official State religion but were, no doubt, part of the religio
Romana. The rites of the Bona Dea, celebrated pro populi Romani
under the Republic, were not officially part of the State religion
until after Livia rededicated the Aventine Temple of the Bona Dea.
Other sanctuaries as well were maintained privately for the Roman
public. What can be called the religio Romana was inclusive of
several culti Deorum, both public and private, some of which
extended back well before Rome was ever founded. Focusing only on
certain aspects of the State religion at Rome denies the full
richness of the religio Romana traditions.

Vale
M Moravius Piscinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40483 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Heathenry, Paganism, NR (I changed the thread title)
---Salve Seutonius et Salvete Omnes:

Just to note, there are groups who purposely identify themselves as
Heathens...they are practitioners of Germanic and/or Norse
Heathenisms. It is a term they use to identify more specifically
what type of reconstructionism they are engaged in.

As a former citizen explained to me and I tend to agree, Paganism
entails alot of different paths, and the term 'Heathen' could be
considered a subcategory to the very broadspectrum term 'Paganism'.

I have no problem with the term Pagan per se, except that it is very
broadspectrum and not all polytheistic approaches were associated
with Roma antiqua. It is just not an 'accurate' term when it is
applied to Rome. I do not think it is accurate in NR either, really,
as, although there were many cults in Rome, the Religio Romana as we
call it, was intrinsic to the Pax Deorum, the pact between Rome and
her Gods (and Goddesses!)

And the devotions to the approach to the Gods/Goddesses varied
within Rome not only in terms of Patron Deities, but the line was
drawn more or less in that the public pact (ie Religio Publica) was
held sacred and it was a great sacrilege to jeopardize this pact.
There were many who were not 'religious' at all in the private
sense, but would honour and respect the public cult of Rome.

I hope I have this right....since this is not given in a nasty
fashion by any means I don't mind comments or corrections. I am not
a Pontifex by any means.

Po








In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Diana et omnes,
>
> Actually I always got a laugh out of the word, "heathen". I've
been
> called that for missing church services to drinking wine in front
of
> sects who prohibit alcohol.
>
> I think that if you really get into Nova Roma and do things such
as
> holding offices, participating on the lists and in various
> sodalistas, take courses and all, then I could see where it might
> become too much or time consuming for some. I know of various
people
> here who just upped and disappeared and not finding any negative
> vital stats on them as well as ML quarrels, I assume that this was
> the case.
>
> Personally I try to make this more of an important hobby. I don't
> like watching sports, game shows, reality TV, especially going
> golfing or lying on beaches or looking for mail order brides; I
> justify that my free time might be better spent here where you can
> learn things of interest and get practice at them at the same time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Diana Octavia Aventina
> <dianaaventina@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Modianus,
> >
> > > Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.
> >
> > Yup. The Pagan Federation has never worried about that
> > word and we've been around for 32 years.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Diana Octavia
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40484 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Heathenry, Paganism, NR (I changed the thread title)
Salvete:

An excellent definition of Paganism, and its many variances, can be found on
Witchvox:

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=basics&id=4575

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/8/05, pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>
wrote:
>
> ---Salve Seutonius et Salvete Omnes:
>
> Just to note, there are groups who purposely identify themselves as
> Heathens...they are practitioners of Germanic and/or Norse
> Heathenisms. It is a term they use to identify more specifically
> what type of reconstructionism they are engaged in.
>
> As a former citizen explained to me and I tend to agree, Paganism
> entails alot of different paths, and the term 'Heathen' could be
> considered a subcategory to the very broadspectrum term 'Paganism'.
>
> I have no problem with the term Pagan per se, except that it is very
> broadspectrum and not all polytheistic approaches were associated
> with Roma antiqua. It is just not an 'accurate' term when it is
> applied to Rome. I do not think it is accurate in NR either, really,
> as, although there were many cults in Rome, the Religio Romana as we
> call it, was intrinsic to the Pax Deorum, the pact between Rome and
> her Gods (and Goddesses!)
>
> And the devotions to the approach to the Gods/Goddesses varied
> within Rome not only in terms of Patron Deities, but the line was
> drawn more or less in that the public pact (ie Religio Publica) was
> held sacred and it was a great sacrilege to jeopardize this pact.
> There were many who were not 'religious' at all in the private
> sense, but would honour and respect the public cult of Rome.
>
> I hope I have this right....since this is not given in a nasty
> fashion by any means I don't mind comments or corrections. I am not
> a Pontifex by any means.
>
> Po


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40485 From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Heathenry, Paganism, NR (I changed the thread title)
I see three aspects to the Religio Romana of which only one is in part
feasible anyway. The animist/ancestor tradition of Lares et Penates and assorted
Genii Loci and spiritual fauna, wayside altars, 'living nature' can only be
reproduced in a small part; the entire ancient Flaminial religion and popular
rites like the Lupecalia and horse sacrifice must be wholly invented or
curtailed, in part because nobody knows for sure everything involved, leaving
the public formalities which we know in fact even Jews performed or approved.
The religio is primarily formal, not a matter of belief, either belief that the
gods exist in that form, or belief in their powers if they do, any more than
swearing on a bible in a modern court means literal belief in the prevailing
creed. It's a statement of respect, formality, intent.
Caesariensis




---Salve Seutonius et Salvete Omnes:

Just to note, there are groups who purposely identify themselves as
Heathens...they are practitioners of Germanic and/or Norse
Heathenisms. It is a term they use to identify more specifically
what type of reconstructionism they are engaged in.

As a former citizen explained to me and I tend to agree, Paganism
entails alot of different paths, and the term 'Heathen' could be
considered a subcategory to the very broadspectrum term 'Paganism'.

I have no problem with the term Pagan per se, except that it is very
broadspectrum and not all polytheistic approaches were associated
with Roma antiqua. It is just not an 'accurate' term when it is
applied to Rome. I do not think it is accurate in NR either, really,
as, although there were many cults in Rome, the Religio Romana as we
call it, was intrinsic to the Pax Deorum, the pact between Rome and
her Gods (and Goddesses!)

And the devotions to the approach to the Gods/Goddesses varied
within Rome not only in terms of Patron Deities, but the line was
drawn more or less in that the public pact (ie Religio Publica) was
held sacred and it was a great sacrilege to jeopardize this pact.
There were many who were not 'religious' at all in the private
sense, but would honour and respect the public cult of Rome.

I hope I have this right....since this is not given in a nasty
fashion by any means I don't mind comments or corrections. I am not
a Pontifex by any means.

Po








In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" wrote:
>
> Salvete Diana et omnes,
>
> Actually I always got a laugh out of the word, "heathen". I've
been
> called that for missing church services to drinking wine in front
of
> sects who prohibit alcohol.
>
> I think that if you really get into Nova Roma and do things such
as
> holding offices, participating on the lists and in various
> sodalistas, take courses and all, then I could see where it might
> become too much or time consuming for some. I know of various
people
> here who just upped and disappeared and not finding any negative
> vital stats on them as well as ML quarrels, I assume that this was
> the case.
>
> Personally I try to make this more of an important hobby. I don't
> like watching sports, game shows, reality TV, especially going
> golfing or lying on beaches or looking for mail order brides; I
> justify that my free time might be better spent here where you can
> learn things of interest and get practice at them at the same time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Diana Octavia Aventina
> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Modianus,
> >
> > > Some people are not scandalized by the word Pagan.
> >
> > Yup. The Pagan Federation has never worried about that
> > word and we've been around for 32 years.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Diana Octavia
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40486 From: vespasian72001 Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Project Provinciae
Salvete Omnes!
{Please respond to this by emailing me privately}
I am writing this, I fear, somewhat prematurely, but here it goes...
It is my desire to promote a wholly Nova Roma way of viewing the world.
As such, I am currently compiling for official submission and review,
a comprehensive re-evaluation of the current "Provincial" system.
Now hear me out before jumping to conclusions...
Most of the currently-used (if not all) provinciae designations are
fine, and this is not the primary focus of this project.
The following are:
1) to define non-Nova Roma territories in Latinized terms.
2) to provide a comprehinsive list of the various regionae within the
provinciae.
3) to allow one to designate through Latinized terms, where one
exactly lives, and also to be able to describe the various landmarks
and such in likewise terms.

Ambitious and perhaps slightly misguided (anyone can transliterate
things into Latin), I have thus formed a webgroup through Yahoo to
begin this discussion.
If anyone is really intrigued, I have set forth complete guidelines
there, and anyone could subscribe (though the membership must be
approved by me). The address is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ProjectProvinciae/
I am in the midst of finals, so the preliminary work is stalled for a
moment, but it will soon resume in earnest.

Valete omnes,

Titus Flavius Vespasianus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40487 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: A whole bunch of stuff
C. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

Regarding the revised lex Popillia. I absolutely agree with the
intent of the lex. I just have one more problem, and it's a
grammatical one. The revised lex reads in part, like this:

"I. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
magistracy shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold that magistracy.

II. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
citizenship shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold any and all his magistracies."


It then concludes like this:

"IV. A magistrate who resigns his magistracy and later
changes his or her mind may stand as a candidate in
the election to fill the vacancy without penalty."


The word "irrevocable" in English means "impossible to retract or
revoke", and as the word "revoke" means "to void or annul by
recalling, withdrawing, or reversing", there is a logical
inconsistency in saying that a magistracy can be resigned
"irrevocably" and yet then allowing the resigner to run again for
"that" (specific) magistracy.

You've just said that if someone resigns a specific magistracy, he or
she has done so "irrevocably", i.e., without any opportunity to annul,
void, or reverse that decision. You cannot logically then allow that
person to in fact reverse their resignation by allowing them to run
for "that" same magistracy.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40488 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Revised Proposal for Magisterial Resignations
In a message dated 12/8/2005 11:02:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
gaiuspopillius@... writes:

I. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
magistracy shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold that magistracy.


IV. A magistrate who resigns his magistracy and later
changes his or her mind may stand as a candidate in
the election to fill the vacancy without penalty.



One comment. I, IV does not agree in English If its irrevocable, you can't
hold the same
magistracy again. So if it's irrevocable in I. IV cannot occur. Still I
like the general tone.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40489 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
M. Luctretius Agricola C. Equitio Catoni Omnibusque S.P.D.

Salve Cato!

So the small alteration you seek is to make clear the fact that it is
the RESIGNATION and not the NOT HOLDING OFFICE that is irrevocable.

Lets take a look at the wording:

>>I. A magistrate who announces his resignation of magistracy shall
immediately and irrevocably cease to hold that magistracy.<<

What happens "immediately and irrevocably"? It is "cease". (The main
verb is "cease" the phrase "to hold that magistracy" is the compliment
of the verb.) In other words, the action of "cease" happens without
delay and the action of "cease" cannot be reversed.

Does this mean that this or any other office cannot be taken up in the
future by this person? No it does not. If the law says you must stop
your car at a stop sign, (and the driving instructor reminds you that
"stop" means "come to a complete stop"), there is nothing to prevent
moving the car again later, after the stop is completed. Of course in
real life we also have laws about the conditions under which one can
proceed, but they do not preclude the possibility that the car again
will move.

So what does the lex as stated mean? In saying that the "ceasing" is
"irrevocable" it says that there is no way to erase the fact of the
resignation (or more exactly the ceasing to hold office). It is
impossible, in other words, under the law to have not ceased. There is
no time frame in which to see the operation of conditions that would
make the ceasing never to have happened. Once you have said you will
stop holding that office, it is, so to speak, written in stone.

Does it say that person shall never hold that office again? No it does
not. Once the ceasing has happened, the law is fulfilled. We can all
go on with life. Nothing here in any way limits any future action of
this person. If our laws permit an election for the vacant office to
take place, nothing here prevents this person from standing for this
office again. Of course, history would then tell us that this person
had resigned (more exactly, had ceased to hold this office), and that
cannot be changed. The resignation itself cannot be undone.

"To cease" and "to stop" are in a class of verbs with "punctive
aspect", sometimes called "achievement verbs". Their function is to
express a change of state that takes no time. (The driving instructor
knew that. Saying "complete stop" streses the fact that the stop
hasn't happened until the speed of the car is exactly, not nearly,
zero. Having achieved zero speed, the stop is complete and the law is
fulfilled.)

To look at it another way, since these verbs express things which take
no time (now the driving instructor errs when he says it takes a long
time to stop car traveling at high speed) their action has no extent
into the future.

Finally I'll mention that this is why we say "cease and desist".
"Desist" is not punctive and so it can control future actions.





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@g...>
wrote:
>
> C. Equitius Cato quirites S.P.D.
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Regarding the revised lex Popillia. I absolutely agree with the
> intent of the lex. I just have one more problem, and it's a
> grammatical one. The revised lex reads in part, like this:
>
> "I. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
> magistracy shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
> hold that magistracy.
>
> II. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
> citizenship shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
> hold any and all his magistracies."
>
>
> It then concludes like this:
>
> "IV. A magistrate who resigns his magistracy and later
> changes his or her mind may stand as a candidate in
> the election to fill the vacancy without penalty."
>
>
> The word "irrevocable" in English means "impossible to retract or
> revoke", and as the word "revoke" means "to void or annul by
> recalling, withdrawing, or reversing", there is a logical
> inconsistency in saying that a magistracy can be resigned
> "irrevocably" and yet then allowing the resigner to run again for
> "that" (specific) magistracy.
>
> You've just said that if someone resigns a specific magistracy, he or
> she has done so "irrevocably", i.e., without any opportunity to annul,
> void, or reverse that decision. You cannot logically then allow that
> person to in fact reverse their resignation by allowing them to run
> for "that" same magistracy.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40490 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Well, I worship my country. I guess that makes me just
a tad strange, I suppose?
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<senseiphil@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Honoring the gods and defending the religion and the
constitution of Nova Roma is all that is asked in the
oath. Isn't that what we are asked by our ,macro-world
country, to honor and defend it? This does not mean
that we "worship" our country. The same applies here,
at least this is the way I interpret it.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: os390account
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:08 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
>
>
> Salvete!
>
> Actually, I must say that a friend of mine wanted
to join, but was
> confused as to the "religious" requirements, and
being a Christian,
> was saddened by his interpretation, correctly or
not, that to hold
> office he would be required to adhere to the
religio in a formal sense.
>
> When I told him that I believed it was simply
about respecting an
> ancient tradition as opposed to assuming the
mantle of a new religion,
> he decided to start reading about it again, and
see whether he would
> like to join.
>
> What is the official status on adherence to the
religio?
>
> Valete,
> Q. Valerius Callidus
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history Fall of the roman
empire The fall of the roman empire
> Roman empire
>
>
>
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>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40491 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Flavius,

Well... We already knew you were very strange amice ;-)

I used to kneel and worship the round porcelain goddess on New Year's Day morning myself. I hear she has a lot of young devotees on that particular morning. And they all usually feel much better after they perform their ritual sacrifice to her. Hey, does this make me a Pagan? (Just a little irreligious humor citizens - don't ex-communicate me or whatever Nova Romans do to blasphemers.)

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR


Well, I worship my country. I guess that makes me just
a tad strange, I suppose?
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<senseiphil@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Honoring the gods and defending the religion and the
constitution of Nova Roma is all that is asked in the
oath. Isn't that what we are asked by our ,macro-world
country, to honor and defend it? This does not mean
that we "worship" our country. The same applies here,
at least this is the way I interpret it.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: os390account
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:08 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
>
>
> Salvete!
>
> Actually, I must say that a friend of mine wanted
to join, but was
> confused as to the "religious" requirements, and
being a Christian,
> was saddened by his interpretation, correctly or
not, that to hold
> office he would be required to adhere to the
religio in a formal sense.
>
> When I told him that I believed it was simply
about respecting an
> ancient tradition as opposed to assuming the
mantle of a new religion,
> he decided to start reading about it again, and
see whether he would
> like to join.
>
> What is the official status on adherence to the
religio?
>
> Valete,
> Q. Valerius Callidus
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history Fall of the roman
empire The fall of the roman empire
> Roman empire
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40492 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
I could offer my feelings on the Justice System but
there are folks that dont give a flying %@&¡ about
the U S s internal struggles. This has been clearly
voiced on this forum. You and I are on opposite sides
of the political coinage and we more than likely BOTH
hate the U S justice system for very different
reasons, off list conversation, perhaps?
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <QFabiusMaxmi@...>
wrote:
> In a message dated 12/7/2005 7:28:44 PM Pacific
Standard Time,
> wm_hogue@... writes:
> Senator, is this quite seriously your belief? I
can't believe that it
> is so, especially as you are standing for high
office.
> The US Justice system is messed up. But I don't
understand what that has to
> do with my running for Censor. I'm I going to have
contact with US Justice
> Department?
>
> When US judges urge plea bargins after one is
promised to judged by a jury of
> their peers,
> how is this justice? The "deal" is a big part of
the our current overloaded
> court system.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40493 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-08
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

My God, I love English :-)

Agricole, thank you, you are quite correct. I shall cease worrying
about this proposed lex, and simply vote for it when it is presented.

Valete,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@y...> wrote:

[a good and clear explanation]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40494 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
M. Lucretius Agricola C. Equitio Catoni Omnibusque S.P.D.

I am glad to be of service. (And that was a little bit of what I do in
my "day job".)

There IS a bit of the proposed lex that bothers ME.

>>IV. A magistrate who resigns his magistracy and later changes his or
her mind may stand as a candidate in the election to fill the vacancy
without penalty.<<

Why do we need "and later changes his or her mind"? And how would we
really KNOW? Would this person have to offer proof somehow?

I think (based on my previous discussion) that the whole paragraph is
not needed, although it does usefully restate the principle. But is
the lex as proposed any better than simply "IV. A magistrate who
resigns his magistracy may stand as a candidate in the election to
fill the vacancy without penalty"?

Now how about this:

Gaius Plebian, holding a plebian office is adopted by Gnaius
Patrician. Caius is about to become a patrician, resigns, then decides
he's the best fellow for the job and announces he will stand for
election. Does the lex as written permit him to do so? Would "IV. A
magistrate who resigns his or her magistracy and who meets all other
qualifications may stand as a candidate in the election to fill the
vacancy without penalty"?


I admit we are now out of linguistics territory (my territory) and
well into legal territory (most certainly NOT my territory). So having
led us into THIS jungle I will leave it for others to lead us out.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@g...>
wrote:
>
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> My God, I love English :-)
>
> Agricole, thank you, you are quite correct. I shall cease worrying
> about this proposed lex, and simply vote for it when it is presented.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@y...> wrote:
>
> [a good and clear explanation]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40495 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
DUDE. Do I have call Homeland Security on you? :^)
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<senseiphil@...> wrote:
> Salve Modianus,
>
> I have no problem with you my brother, I do not mean
to insult you, just to make you think about certain
things. I have read the oath and have no problem with
it since it states that I have to "honor" the gods,
this a far cry from "worship". It also states that I
should swear to uphold and defend the religio. I would
swear to defend and uphold the Religio, well if I were
to take on a job in Saudi Arabia it would only be
right that I swear to uphold and defend Islam. In
either case it would not be in contradiction to my
faith. It would if it stated that I should refute my
beliefs in Christianity or order me to attack that
faith (or any other for that matter). You should be
aware that in the second century AD a very large
proportion of Rome's civil servants were Christians
simply because they were literate (they were taught to
read and write in order to be able to read their
sacred texts) whereas the pagan population at large
was mostly illiterate and therefore useless in the
civil service.
>
> Vires et honos,
> Marcus Cassius Philippus
>
> "A bird fell out of a stormy winter sky and into the
snow. The snow broke its fall and it survived. Just
before the creature died from the cold, a cow dumped a
big pile of dung on it. It saved its life because of
its warmth. In the morning the bird chirped in delight
to still be alive and was promptly eaten by a cat. The
moral of the story: Just because you think someone
shit on you doesn't make them your enemy, and just
because someone picks you out of the shit doesn't
necessarily make them your friend either."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Kling
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Why people quit NR
>
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Cassio Philippo
salutem dicit
>
> It is obvious to me that no matter what I say, or
do, you will twist it to
> suit yourself. I know many Masons, like myself,
who see the world
> differently than what you do. I do not think the
citizens of Nova Roma care
> to discuss Masonry, if you want to take this
privatly then please do so.
>
> Regarding taking oaths, keep one thing in mind...
when you are elected
> Editor of the Aquila you will have to take an
oath:
>
>
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-10-19-ii.html
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/7/05, Sensei Phil Perez
<senseiphil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Modianus,
> >
> > Those Lodges that exist in polytheistic nations
do not have the same
> > rituals nor do they swear an oath by the
Christian Bible. You are right,
> > polytheism in itself does not preclude
membership (except that in most if
> > not all U.S. Lodges which are predominantly
Judeo-Christian. If there are
> > some that are not, then they are free to do
otherwise, but like I said I
> > don't know of any that are. They all use a bible
and no other sacred text),
> > but taking an oath on a sacred text that a
person does not consider to be
> > sacred by virtue of not believing in it is by
definition not an oath, just
> > as an oath by a slave cannot be taken seriously,
so an insincere oath by
> > virtue of taking it without belief in the sacred
texts it is taken on cannot
> > be taken seriously. The fact that your Masonic
brethren still accept you is
> > a testament to their steadfast kinship and
brotherhood but I still think
> > that it would have been more appropriate for you
to apply to form a
> > "Religio" based Masonic Lodge rather than
participate in an unholy oath.
> >
> > I am very aware of Marcus Cassius Iulianus's
status and I did not think it
> > was anybody's business but his to divulge his
status, I do not understand
> > why you have done so for him. If he wanted
everyone to know his macroworld
> > affiliations he would have done so himself. I
have never discussed these
> > issues with him and was not planning to do so in
our interview since, again
> >
=== Message Truncated ===


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40496 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Fwd: [SodalitasMilitarium] Romas police et al.
[Sent by Yahoo! Mobile.]

S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40497 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Fwd: [SodalitasMilitarium] Romas police et al.
[Sent by Yahoo! Mobile.]

S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40498 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
Yes, my dear Cato, I agree. But dont you sometimes
wish more folks in Nova Eborica actually spoke it? :-#
Kidding, kidding. Dont call the ACLU on me just yet.
LOL.
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> My God, I love English :-)
>
> Agricole, thank you, you are quite correct. I shall
cease worrying
> about this proposed lex, and simply vote for it when
it is presented.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius
Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@y...> wrote:
>
> [a good and clear explanation]
>
>
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40499 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: [SodalitasMilitarium] Romas police et al.
Can anyone add to this?
--- SodalitasMilitarium@yahoogroups.com
<praefectus2324@...> wrote:
> I posted the question earlier of who manned the
walls
> and gates of the eternal city at night. I surmised
> that it was a 24 hour operation by the cohors
urbanae.
> I just read that this was indeed the case in NEROS
> KILLING MACHINE by DAVID COLLINS. A very interesting
read.
>
> S P Q R
>
> Fidelis Ad Mortem.
>
> Marcvs Flavivs Fides
> Roman Citizen
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40500 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <cn_corn_lent@...>
wrote:
> Cn. Lentulus: Q. Metello: C. Equitio: Omnibus
Latinistis et Quiritibus: sal.:
>
> We all must commemorate M. Tullius Cicero, Pater
Patriae: his death was the end of the Old Republic,
the most damned event in Rome caused by M. Antonius -
it will accuse him forever.
>
> Consider, Quirites, that without the works of M.
Tullius Cicero we could never restore the Republic,
nor the Religio. The largest part of what we know
about the Republic, its functioning, the public life
of Rome and the Religio - we know from the books
written by M. Cicero. We must give thank him and bow
our heads before his greatness.
>
> VIVIT AETERNE IN NOSTRIS CORDIBVS
> BONORVM VIRORVM SEMPER OPTVMVS
> M. CICERO PATER PATRIAE ET CONSERVATOR
> IMPERATOR CONSVL PROCONSVL PRAETOR
> AEDILIS QVAESTOR AVGVR DEFENSOR
> REI PVBLICAE OMNIVM MAXIMVS ORATOR
>
>
> CN. LENTVLVS SCRIPSIT
>
>
>
> "Q. Caecilius Metellus" <metellus@...> ha
scritto:
> Q. Metellus C. Catoni sal.
>
> > On this day in 43 B.C., Cicero was murdered on the
orders of Mark
> > Antony as he tried to leave Italy.
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> QUAESTOR CANDIDATUS
> Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> Accensus Consulis Fr. Apuli Caesaris
> Scriba Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae
Scholasticae Senior
> Scriba Magistri Araneari C. Minuci Scaevolae Iunior
> Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam,
antivirus, POP3
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40501 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Dear Santa...
CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·S·P·D

Just to throw two Spanish reales (which would amount to 40 cents of
the old pesetas) into the discussion about Santa Claus, let us review
some additional facts.

In the Spanish speaking world -- which represents an important
percentage of the Roman Catholic population -- gifts are not
necessarily delivered by Santa Claus. That grumpy old Finn has at
least five competitors in Spain and Latin America:

a) The Niño Jesús, a version of the German Christ-child Cato mentioned
before, gives presents to children on the night of the 24th, at the
same time as Santa Claus.

b) The Three Wise Men, better know in Spanish as the Tres Reyes Magos
("Three Wizard-Kings") also give presents to children on the eve of
Epiphany (the night of January the 5th), adding to the general
confusion. The Three Wise Men, being kings in the Orient, have at
their disposal a huge army of helpers that go around carrying gifts in
camels to do their job -- if you do not believe that part, there is a
huge parade of the Three Wise Men and all their helpers as they cross
the cities of Spain from East to West to prove it.

c) In the Basque Country, the Olentzero, some kind of bloodthirsty
forest giant that initially chased those who had eaten too much on
Christmas Eve to cut their throat with a sickle, changed job
description in the early 20th century to bring presents to children.

Children can receive gifts from any of these characters and from Santa
Claus (usually called "Papá Noel", just like in France) in a
non-exclusive relationship. That is; a kid can receive presents from
Santa Claus and the Three Wise Men, or from the Niño Jesús and the
Three Wise Men, or any other possible combination -- with the Three
Wise Men being the most popular element in any combination in almost
every case.

So all you skepticals who do not believe that Santa Claus could give
presents to all those children, know that it is possible for him to do
it not only thanks to the special Saturnalia powers he inherited from
his Roman ancestors, but also because he receives substantial help
from several other magical entities. And know that *none* of these
entities gives gifts to those who do not believe in them. You have
been warned.

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40502 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·S·P·D

> I, Marcus Bianchius Antonius, come before you today to present my candidacy
> for the office of Tribune. I have served as Tribune over the past year and would
> like to continue in these duties. I have learned a great deal over the past year
> and I feel I would be of better service to the Plebians if they would place their
> confidence in me for another year.
>
> I have been a member of Nova Roma since 1999 and have for the past three
> years been Propraetor of the Great Provincia of Lacus Magni. I have also served
> as Quaestor.

After having suggest Tribune P. Memmius Albucius to reconsider his
decision to run for a consecutive term as a tribune, I feel that I
must do the same thing with you. Being elected for the same position
in two consecutive years would be contrary to Roman tradition and to
the spirit of our laws, and it would constitute a dangerous precedent.
An important element of our system of checks and balances is the
strict annuality of some offices, and I think that the Tribunate is
precisely a magistracy where this rule should be enforced very
strictly.

I would like to suggest you, for the reasons above, to run for a
different position this year. You colleague Tribune P. Memmius
Albucius has fully understood these concerns, and has acted as a man
of honour and gravitas, retiring his candidacy and thus earning the
respect of his fellow citizens. His is an example to follow.

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40503 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: A whole bunch of stuff
A. Apollonius C. Equitio Q. Maximo M. Lucretio omnibus
sal.

Well, I think M. Lucretius has covered that one pretty
comprehensively! Yes, the "irrevocably" needn't
logically prevent the person holding the same office
ever again, it just means he can't revoke his
resignation.

Agricola, as to your point, I think it's a very
sensible one. I'll suggest it to the consul.



___________________________________________________________
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snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40504 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
A. Apollonius Cn. Salvio omnibusque sal.

Goodness, has M. Bianchius been tribune this year? I
thought I recognized his name. Well, if he has, I
quite agree that he should not run again this year,
and I feel rather silly for not spotting it earlier.
One glance at the late republic is surely enough to
satisfy anyone that it is a very bad idea for any
tribune to hold office for two years in a row.



___________________________________________________________
NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40505 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Dear Santa...
C. Equitius Cato Cn. Salvio Asturi S.P.D.

Salve Astur!

"In the Basque Country, the Olentzero, some kind of bloodthirsty
forest giant that initially chased those who had eaten too much on
Christmas Eve to cut their throat with a sickle, changed job
description in the early 20th century to bring presents to children."

WOW. Now *that's* what I call a self-guided work effort. He saw an
opening, and he took it.

Vale bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40506 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: a.d. V Id. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem V Idus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"Both the speech and the speaker produced a great impression on all
who heard him, including the tribunes, who were so far influenced by
what they had heard that they formally placed themselves at the
disposal of the senate. They immediately resigned their office and
were handed over to the fetials to be conducted with the rest to
Caudium. After the senate had passed their resolution, it seemed as
though the light of day was once more shining on the State. The name
of Postumius was in all men's mouths, he was extolled to the skies,
his conduct was put on a level with the self-sacrifice of P. Decius
and other splendid deeds of heroism. It was through his counsel and
assistance, men said, that the State had found its way out of a
dishonourable and guilty peace; he was exposing himself to the rage of
the enemy and all the tortures they could inflict as an expiatory
victim for the Roman people. All eyes were turned to arms and war;
"shall we ever be allowed," they exclaimed, "to meet the Samnites in
arms?" Amidst this blaze of angry excitement and thirst for vengeance,
a levy was made and nearly all re-enlisted as volunteers. Nine legions
were formed out of the former troops, and the army marched to Caudium.
The fetials went on in advance, and on arriving at the city gate they
ordered the garment to be stripped off from those who had made the
capitulation and their arms to be tied behind their backs. As the
apparitor, out of respect for Postumius' rank, was binding his cords
loosely, "Why do you not," he asked, "draw the cord tight that the
surrender may be made in due form?" When they had entered the council
chamber and reached the tribunal where Pontius was seated, the fetial
addressed him thus: "Forasmuch as these men have, without being
ordered thereto by the Roman people, the Quirites, given their promise
and oath that a treaty shall be concluded and have thereby been guilty
of high crime and misdemeanour, I do herewith make surrender to you of
these men, to the end that the Roman people may be absolved from the
guilt of a heinous and detestable act." As the fetial said this
Postumius struck him as hard as he could with his knee, and in a loud
voice declared that he was a Samnite citizen, that he had violated the
law of nations in maltreating the fetial who, as herald, was
inviolable, and that after this the Romans would be all the more
justified in prosecuting the war." - Livy, History of Rome 9.10



On this day in A.D. 536, the general Belisarius captured Rome (the
first of three times) from the Ostrogoths in the emperor Justinian's
attempt to regain the Western Empire.



"High on a throne of royal state, which far
Outshone the wealth of Ormus and of Ind,
Or where the gorgeous East with richest hand
Showers on her kings barbaric pearl and gold,
Satan exalted sat, by merit rais'd
To that bad eminence." - John Milton, born on 9 December A.D. 1608;
"Paradise Lost"

While visiting John Milton one day, King James II (then the Duke of
York) stated that the poet's blindness was divine retribution for his
defence of the execution of Charles I. "If Your Highness thinks that
misfortunes are indexes of the wrath of heaven," Milton replied, "what
must you think of your father's tragical end? I have only lost my eyes
– he lost his head!"



"There dwelt in Egypt two youths of noble birth, one of whom applied
himself to study knowledge, and the other to accumulate wealth. In
process of time that became the wisest man of his age, and this King
of Egypt. Then was the rich man casting an eye of scorn upon his
philosophic brother, and saying, "I have reached a sovereignty, and
you remain thus in a state of poverty." He replied: "O brother! I am
all the more grateful for the bounty of a Most High God, whose name
was glorified, that I have found the heritage of the
prophets---namely, wisdom; and you have got the estate of Pharaoh and
Haman---that is, the kingdom of Egypt. I am a hermit, that mankind
shall tread under foot; not a hornet, that they shall complain of my
sting. How can I sufficiently express my grateful sense of this
blessing, that I possess not the means of injuring my fellow
creatures?" - Sa'di, one of the greatest of the Persian poets, who
died 9 December A.D. 1292


Valete bene!

Cato



Sources

Livy, John Milton and Sa'di (http://www.wikipedia.org/)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40507 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (copy
Publius Memmius Albucius omnibus Plebeiis ac Quiritibus s.d.

Salvete omnes,

In my message n°896 in Comitia Plebis Tributa list, Thu Dec 1, 2005
9:11 pm, on « ELECTIONS - PLEBS - CALL for 2nd period CANDIDACIES »,
I had, on behalf of the whole Tribunate, the honor to declare open
the second period for candidacies to plebeian constitutional offices
(tribunate and aedilitas).

This second (or « optional ») period has been then scheduled from 1st
Dec. 2005 0 :00 am to 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time.

The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second period,
the names of the registered declarations made by every candidate in
the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open magistracies,
and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in the
next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759 auc.

The registered candidacies, included the ones made during the first
period (from 25th Nov. 2005 9 :35 pm to 1st Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
time) are :

- *Aedilitas plebis* :

. Open positions : 2
. Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
time : 1
. Registered candidate : Julilla Sempronia Magna (CTP list
declaration on Dec. 5, 7 :13 pm, mess. 906, registered on Dec. 5,
11 :14 pm, mess. CTP list 907).
. Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st) :1
(except if the withdrawal of Hon. Sempronia's candidacy occurs from
9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time,
then 2 vacancies).

- *Tribunatus plebis* :

. Open positions : 5
. Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
time : 6
. Registered candidates :

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa (CTP list declaration on Nov. 26, 12 :14 am,
mess. 890, registered on Nov. 26, 11 :02 am, mess. CTP list 891) ;

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 7 :39
am, mess. 892, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :49 pm, mess. CTP list 894) ;

Cnaeus Salix Astur (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 12 :38 pm, mess.
893, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :55 pm, mess. CTP list 895) ;

Marcus Arminius Maior (CTP list declaration on Dec. 2, 9 :10 pm,
mess. 897, registered on Dec. 2, 11 :31 pm, mess. CTP list 899) ;

Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus (CTP list declaration on Dec. 3,
9 :56 pm, mess. 901, registered on Dec. 4, 6 :23 pm, mess. CTP list
904) ;

Marcus Bianchius Antonius, currently in charge (CTP list declaration
on Dec. 6, 9 :55 pm, mess. 910, registered on Dec. 7, 7 :54 pm, mess.
CTP list 911).


. Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st): 0
(except if at least 2 withdrawals of candidacy occur from 9th Dec.
2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time).

According to the current laws of Nova Roma, Honorable Julilla
Sempronia Magna for aedilitas, and Hon. Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa,
Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, Cnaeus Salix Astur, Marcus Arminius
Maior, Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus and Marcus Bianchius
Antonius, for the tribunate, are the sole candidates legally
authorised to enter the next comitia plebis tributa which is going to
be convened on the annual elections for 2759 auc of the plebeian
magistracies.

Good luck to all these candidates and, good vote for you all,
Plebeians. Pales, Ceres and Minerva be with you all !

Valete omnes.

On behalf of Marcus Bianchius Antonius, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,
Caius Curius Saturninus, Marca Hortensia Maior, and myself, Tribuni
plebis,


P. Memmius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40508 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Publio Memmio Albucio salutem dicit

Did Marca Hortensia Maior decide NOT to run for Plebeian Aedile? She is
listed on the Election page: http://novaroma.org/bin/election

You made a call for candidates and signed her name to it (since she too is a
Tribune), I assume you are counting her declaration of candidacy.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/9/05, Tribune Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> wrote:
>
> Publius Memmius Albucius omnibus Plebeiis ac Quiritibus s.d.
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> In my message n°896 in Comitia Plebis Tributa list, Thu Dec 1, 2005
> 9:11 pm, on « ELECTIONS - PLEBS - CALL for 2nd period CANDIDACIES »,
> I had, on behalf of the whole Tribunate, the honor to declare open
> the second period for candidacies to plebeian constitutional offices
> (tribunate and aedilitas).
>
> This second (or « optional ») period has been then scheduled from 1st
> Dec. 2005 0 :00 am to 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time.
>
> The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second period,
> the names of the registered declarations made by every candidate in
> the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open magistracies,
> and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in the
> next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759 auc.
>
> The registered candidacies, included the ones made during the first
> period (from 25th Nov. 2005 9 :35 pm to 1st Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
> time) are :
>
> - *Aedilitas plebis* :
>
> . Open positions : 2
> . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
> time : 1
> . Registered candidate : Julilla Sempronia Magna (CTP list
> declaration on Dec. 5, 7 :13 pm, mess. 906, registered on Dec. 5,
> 11 :14 pm, mess. CTP list 907).
> . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st) :1
> (except if the withdrawal of Hon. Sempronia's candidacy occurs from
> 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time,
> then 2 vacancies).
>
> - *Tribunatus plebis* :
>
> . Open positions : 5
> . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
> time : 6
> . Registered candidates :
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa (CTP list declaration on Nov. 26, 12 :14 am,
> mess. 890, registered on Nov. 26, 11 :02 am, mess. CTP list 891) ;
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 7 :39
> am, mess. 892, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :49 pm, mess. CTP list 894) ;
>
> Cnaeus Salix Astur (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 12 :38 pm, mess.
> 893, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :55 pm, mess. CTP list 895) ;
>
> Marcus Arminius Maior (CTP list declaration on Dec. 2, 9 :10 pm,
> mess. 897, registered on Dec. 2, 11 :31 pm, mess. CTP list 899) ;
>
> Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus (CTP list declaration on Dec. 3,
> 9 :56 pm, mess. 901, registered on Dec. 4, 6 :23 pm, mess. CTP list
> 904) ;
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius, currently in charge (CTP list declaration
> on Dec. 6, 9 :55 pm, mess. 910, registered on Dec. 7, 7 :54 pm, mess.
> CTP list 911).
>
>
> . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st): 0
> (except if at least 2 withdrawals of candidacy occur from 9th Dec.
> 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time).
>
> According to the current laws of Nova Roma, Honorable Julilla
> Sempronia Magna for aedilitas, and Hon. Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa,
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, Cnaeus Salix Astur, Marcus Arminius
> Maior, Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus and Marcus Bianchius
> Antonius, for the tribunate, are the sole candidates legally
> authorised to enter the next comitia plebis tributa which is going to
> be convened on the annual elections for 2759 auc of the plebeian
> magistracies.
>
> Good luck to all these candidates and, good vote for you all,
> Plebeians. Pales, Ceres and Minerva be with you all !
>
> Valete omnes.
>
> On behalf of Marcus Bianchius Antonius, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,
> Caius Curius Saturninus, Marca Hortensia Maior, and myself, Tribuni
> plebis,
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
> Tribunus Plebis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40509 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
---Salvete Omnes:

Yeah. Where's Hortensia Maior?

Po


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@g...>
wrote:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Publio Memmio Albucio salutem dicit
>
> Did Marca Hortensia Maior decide NOT to run for Plebeian Aedile?
She is
> listed on the Election page: http://novaroma.org/bin/election
>
> You made a call for candidates and signed her name to it (since
she too is a
> Tribune), I assume you are counting her declaration of candidacy.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/9/05, Tribune Albucius <albucius_aoe@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Publius Memmius Albucius omnibus Plebeiis ac Quiritibus s.d.
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > In my message n°896 in Comitia Plebis Tributa list, Thu Dec 1,
2005
> > 9:11 pm, on « ELECTIONS - PLEBS - CALL for 2nd period
CANDIDACIES »,
> > I had, on behalf of the whole Tribunate, the honor to declare
open
> > the second period for candidacies to plebeian constitutional
offices
> > (tribunate and aedilitas).
> >
> > This second (or « optional ») period has been then scheduled
from 1st
> > Dec. 2005 0 :00 am to 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time.
> >
> > The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second
period,
> > the names of the registered declarations made by every candidate
in
> > the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open
magistracies,
> > and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in
the
> > next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759
auc.
> >
> > The registered candidacies, included the ones made during the
first
> > period (from 25th Nov. 2005 9 :35 pm to 1st Dec. 2005 0:00 am
Rome
> > time) are :
> >
> > - *Aedilitas plebis* :
> >
> > . Open positions : 2
> > . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am
Rome
> > time : 1
> > . Registered candidate : Julilla Sempronia Magna (CTP list
> > declaration on Dec. 5, 7 :13 pm, mess. 906, registered on Dec. 5,
> > 11 :14 pm, mess. CTP list 907).
> > . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st) :1
> > (except if the withdrawal of Hon. Sempronia's candidacy occurs
from
> > 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome
time,
> > then 2 vacancies).
> >
> > - *Tribunatus plebis* :
> >
> > . Open positions : 5
> > . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am
Rome
> > time : 6
> > . Registered candidates :
> >
> > Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa (CTP list declaration on Nov. 26, 12 :14
am,
> > mess. 890, registered on Nov. 26, 11 :02 am, mess. CTP list
891) ;
> >
> > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28,
7 :39
> > am, mess. 892, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :49 pm, mess. CTP list
894) ;
> >
> > Cnaeus Salix Astur (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 12 :38 pm,
mess.
> > 893, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :55 pm, mess. CTP list 895) ;
> >
> > Marcus Arminius Maior (CTP list declaration on Dec. 2, 9 :10 pm,
> > mess. 897, registered on Dec. 2, 11 :31 pm, mess. CTP list 899) ;
> >
> > Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus (CTP list declaration on
Dec. 3,
> > 9 :56 pm, mess. 901, registered on Dec. 4, 6 :23 pm, mess. CTP
list
> > 904) ;
> >
> > Marcus Bianchius Antonius, currently in charge (CTP list
declaration
> > on Dec. 6, 9 :55 pm, mess. 910, registered on Dec. 7, 7 :54 pm,
mess.
> > CTP list 911).
> >
> >
> > . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st): 0
> > (except if at least 2 withdrawals of candidacy occur from 9th
Dec.
> > 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time).
> >
> > According to the current laws of Nova Roma, Honorable Julilla
> > Sempronia Magna for aedilitas, and Hon. Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa,
> > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, Cnaeus Salix Astur, Marcus Arminius
> > Maior, Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus and Marcus Bianchius
> > Antonius, for the tribunate, are the sole candidates legally
> > authorised to enter the next comitia plebis tributa which is
going to
> > be convened on the annual elections for 2759 auc of the plebeian
> > magistracies.
> >
> > Good luck to all these candidates and, good vote for you all,
> > Plebeians. Pales, Ceres and Minerva be with you all !
> >
> > Valete omnes.
> >
> > On behalf of Marcus Bianchius Antonius, Domitius Constantinus
Fuscus,
> > Caius Curius Saturninus, Marca Hortensia Maior, and myself,
Tribuni
> > plebis,
> >
> >
> > P. Memmius Albucius
> > Tribunus Plebis
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40510 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero
Salvete omnes,

Marcus Tullius Cicero lives again. Compare the posts of Gaius Equitius Cato to the speeches of Cicero. The old bastard re-incarnated himself. Cato, please take car of those hands amice ;-)

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] a.d. VII Id. Dec. and M. Tullius Cicero



--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <cn_corn_lent@...>
wrote:
> Cn. Lentulus: Q. Metello: C. Equitio: Omnibus
Latinistis et Quiritibus: sal.:
>
> We all must commemorate M. Tullius Cicero, Pater
Patriae: his death was the end of the Old Republic,
the most damned event in Rome caused by M. Antonius -
it will accuse him forever.
>
> Consider, Quirites, that without the works of M.
Tullius Cicero we could never restore the Republic,
nor the Religio. The largest part of what we know
about the Republic, its functioning, the public life
of Rome and the Religio - we know from the books
written by M. Cicero. We must give thank him and bow
our heads before his greatness.
>
> VIVIT AETERNE IN NOSTRIS CORDIBVS
> BONORVM VIRORVM SEMPER OPTVMVS
> M. CICERO PATER PATRIAE ET CONSERVATOR
> IMPERATOR CONSVL PROCONSVL PRAETOR
> AEDILIS QVAESTOR AVGVR DEFENSOR
> REI PVBLICAE OMNIVM MAXIMVS ORATOR
>
>
> CN. LENTVLVS SCRIPSIT
>
>
>
> "Q. Caecilius Metellus" <metellus@...> ha
scritto:
> Q. Metellus C. Catoni sal.
>
> > On this day in 43 B.C., Cicero was murdered on the
orders of Mark
> > Antony as he tried to leave Italy.
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> QUAESTOR CANDIDATUS
> Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> Accensus Consulis Fr. Apuli Caesaris
> Scriba Aedilis Curulis L. Iulii Sullae
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae
Scholasticae Senior
> Scriba Magistri Araneari C. Minuci Scaevolae Iunior
> Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam,
antivirus, POP3
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40511 From: Tim Gallagher Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Salve Marcus Bianchius Antonius

I agree completely with Gnaeus Salvius Astur and respectfully request that you follow the fine and outstanding example of P. Memmius Albucius and withdraw as a candidate for Tribune. You would show as he has shown the gravitas of a true Roman.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur<mailto:cn.salvius.astur@...>
To: ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Nova Roma ML<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:08 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Running for Tribune


CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·S·P·D

> I, Marcus Bianchius Antonius, come before you today to present my candidacy
> for the office of Tribune. I have served as Tribune over the past year and would
> like to continue in these duties. I have learned a great deal over the past year
> and I feel I would be of better service to the Plebians if they would place their
> confidence in me for another year.
>
> I have been a member of Nova Roma since 1999 and have for the past three
> years been Propraetor of the Great Provincia of Lacus Magni. I have also served
> as Quaestor.

After having suggest Tribune P. Memmius Albucius to reconsider his
decision to run for a consecutive term as a tribune, I feel that I
must do the same thing with you. Being elected for the same position
in two consecutive years would be contrary to Roman tradition and to
the spirit of our laws, and it would constitute a dangerous precedent.
An important element of our system of checks and balances is the
strict annularity of some offices, and I think that the Tribunate is
precisely a magistracy where this rule should be enforced very
strictly.

I would like to suggest you, for the reasons above, to run for a
different position this year. You colleague Tribune P. Memmius
Albucius has fully understood these concerns, and has acted as a man
of honour and gravitas, retiring his candidacy and thus earning the
respect of his fellow citizens. His is an example to follow.

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40512 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Publius Memmius Albucius Gaio Fabio Buteoni Modianus Pompeiae
Minuciae Tiberiae s.d.

Hon. Hortensia has apparently decided not to confirm her will to run
for aedile, for she has not declared her candidacy in the CPT list
(cf the tribunate call in ML 39856).

Concerning the "Election page: http://novaroma.org/bin/election",
which is a non official page, I have however already asked Consul
Caesar, in the previous weeks, to get it corrected and/or actualized.

At last, we have issued the call for candidacies as tribunes : this
issue must not naturally be understood as a registration of candidacy
by the signers.


Valete,

P. Memmius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
>
> ---Salvete Omnes:
>
> Yeah. Where's Hortensia Maior?
>
> Po
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@g...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Publio Memmio Albucio salutem dicit
> >
> > Did Marca Hortensia Maior decide NOT to run for Plebeian Aedile?
> She is
> > listed on the
> >
> > You made a call for candidates and signed her name to it (since
> she too is a
> > Tribune), I assume you are counting her declaration of candidacy.
> >
> > Vale:
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >
> > On 12/9/05, Tribune Albucius <albucius_aoe@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Publius Memmius Albucius omnibus Plebeiis ac Quiritibus s.d.
> > >
> > > Salvete omnes,
> > >
> > > In my message n°896 in Comitia Plebis Tributa list, Thu Dec 1,
> 2005
> > > 9:11 pm, on « ELECTIONS - PLEBS - CALL for 2nd period
> CANDIDACIES »,
> > > I had, on behalf of the whole Tribunate, the honor to declare
> open
> > > the second period for candidacies to plebeian constitutional
> offices
> > > (tribunate and aedilitas).
> > >
> > > This second (or « optional ») period has been then scheduled
> from 1st
> > > Dec. 2005 0 :00 am to 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time.
> > >
> > > The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second
> period,
> > > the names of the registered declarations made by every
candidate
> in
> > > the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open
> magistracies,
> > > and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in
> the
> > > next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759
> auc.
> > >
> > > The registered candidacies, included the ones made during the
> first
> > > period (from 25th Nov. 2005 9 :35 pm to 1st Dec. 2005 0:00 am
> Rome
> > > time) are :
> > >
> > > - *Aedilitas plebis* :
> > >
> > > . Open positions : 2
> > > . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am
> Rome
> > > time : 1
> > > . Registered candidate : Julilla Sempronia Magna (CTP list
> > > declaration on Dec. 5, 7 :13 pm, mess. 906, registered on Dec.
5,
> > > 11 :14 pm, mess. CTP list 907).
> > > . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006,
1st) :1
> > > (except if the withdrawal of Hon. Sempronia's candidacy occurs
> from
> > > 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome
> time,
> > > then 2 vacancies).
> > >
> > > - *Tribunatus plebis* :
> > >
> > > . Open positions : 5
> > > . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am
> Rome
> > > time : 6
> > > . Registered candidates :
> > >
> > > Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa (CTP list declaration on Nov. 26,
12 :14
> am,
> > > mess. 890, registered on Nov. 26, 11 :02 am, mess. CTP list
> 891) ;
> > >
> > > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28,
> 7 :39
> > > am, mess. 892, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :49 pm, mess. CTP list
> 894) ;
> > >
> > > Cnaeus Salix Astur (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 12 :38 pm,
> mess.
> > > 893, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :55 pm, mess. CTP list 895) ;
> > >
> > > Marcus Arminius Maior (CTP list declaration on Dec. 2, 9 :10 pm,
> > > mess. 897, registered on Dec. 2, 11 :31 pm, mess. CTP list
899) ;
> > >
> > > Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus (CTP list declaration on
> Dec. 3,
> > > 9 :56 pm, mess. 901, registered on Dec. 4, 6 :23 pm, mess. CTP
> list
> > > 904) ;
> > >
> > > Marcus Bianchius Antonius, currently in charge (CTP list
> declaration
> > > on Dec. 6, 9 :55 pm, mess. 910, registered on Dec. 7, 7 :54 pm,
> mess.
> > > CTP list 911).
> > >
> > >
> > > . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st):
0
> > > (except if at least 2 withdrawals of candidacy occur from 9th
> Dec.
> > > 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time).
> > >
> > > According to the current laws of Nova Roma, Honorable Julilla
> > > Sempronia Magna for aedilitas, and Hon. Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa,
> > > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, Cnaeus Salix Astur, Marcus Arminius
> > > Maior, Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus and Marcus Bianchius
> > > Antonius, for the tribunate, are the sole candidates legally
> > > authorised to enter the next comitia plebis tributa which is
> going to
> > > be convened on the annual elections for 2759 auc of the plebeian
> > > magistracies.
> > >
> > > Good luck to all these candidates and, good vote for you all,
> > > Plebeians. Pales, Ceres and Minerva be with you all !
> > >
> > > Valete omnes.
> > >
> > > On behalf of Marcus Bianchius Antonius, Domitius Constantinus
> Fuscus,
> > > Caius Curius Saturninus, Marca Hortensia Maior, and myself,
> Tribuni
> > > plebis,
> > >
> > >
> > > P. Memmius Albucius
> > > Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40513 From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
I do not wish to cause any problems within Nova Roma, nor do I wish to break with Roman traditions.

I withdraw my name.

Vale,

Marcus Bianchius Antonius


Gnaeus Salvius Astur <cn.salvius.astur@...> wrote:
CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·S·P·D

> I, Marcus Bianchius Antonius, come before you today to present my candidacy
> for the office of Tribune. I have served as Tribune over the past year and would
> like to continue in these duties. I have learned a great deal over the past year
> and I feel I would be of better service to the Plebians if they would place their
> confidence in me for another year.
>
> I have been a member of Nova Roma since 1999 and have for the past three
> years been Propraetor of the Great Provincia of Lacus Magni. I have also served
> as Quaestor.

After having suggest Tribune P. Memmius Albucius to reconsider his
decision to run for a consecutive term as a tribune, I feel that I
must do the same thing with you. Being elected for the same position
in two consecutive years would be contrary to Roman tradition and to
the spirit of our laws, and it would constitute a dangerous precedent.
An important element of our system of checks and balances is the
strict annuality of some offices, and I think that the Tribunate is
precisely a magistracy where this rule should be enforced very
strictly.

I would like to suggest you, for the reasons above, to run for a
different position this year. You colleague Tribune P. Memmius
Albucius has fully understood these concerns, and has acted as a man
of honour and gravitas, retiring his candidacy and thus earning the
respect of his fellow citizens. His is an example to follow.

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40514 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES - WITHDRAWAL of Hon. BIANC
(copy of the message posted in the CPT list)


Publius Memmius Albucius omnibus Plebeiis ac Quiritibus s.d.

Salvete omnes,

Taking in due consideration the withdrawal of his candidacy to the
tribunate for 2759 a.u.c. published in the CTP list on this Dec. 7
4:04 pm (message 917) by Hon. Marcus Bianchius Antonius, my edict
issued today at 12:57 (message 914 CTP list), is actualised as
follows :


"In my message n°896 in Comitia Plebis Tributa list, Thu Dec 1, 2005
9:11 pm, on « ELECTIONS - PLEBS - CALL for 2nd period CANDIDACIES »,
I had, on behalf of the whole Tribunate, the honor to declare open
the second period for candidacies to plebeian constitutional offices
(tribunate and aedilitas).

This second (or « optional ») period has been then scheduled from 1st
Dec. 2005 0 :00 am to 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time.

The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second period,
the names of the registered declarations made by every candidate in
the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open magistracies,
and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in the
next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759 auc.

The registered candidacies, included the ones made during the first
period (from 25th Nov. 2005 9 :35 pm to 1st Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
time) are :

- *Aedilitas plebis* :

. Open positions : 2
. Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
time : 1
. Registered candidate : Julilla Sempronia Magna (CTP list
declaration on Dec. 5, 7 :13 pm, mess. 906, registered on Dec. 5,
11 :14 pm, mess. CTP list 907).
. Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st) :1
(except if the withdrawal of Hon. Sempronia's candidacy occurs from
9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time,
then 2 vacancies).

- *Tribunatus plebis* :

. Open positions : 5
. Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome
time : 5 [after withdrawal of Hon.Marcus Bianchius Antonius's
withdrawal - Dec. 7 4:04 pm (message CTP list 917)]

. Registered candidates :

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa (CTP list declaration on Nov. 26, 12 :14 am,
mess. 890, registered on Nov. 26, 11 :02 am, mess. CTP list 891) ;

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 7 :39
am, mess. 892, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :49 pm, mess. CTP list 894) ;

Cnaeus Salix Astur (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 12 :38 pm, mess.
893, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :55 pm, mess. CTP list 895) ;

Marcus Arminius Maior (CTP list declaration on Dec. 2, 9 :10 pm,
mess. 897, registered on Dec. 2, 11 :31 pm, mess. CTP list 899) ;

Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus (CTP list declaration on Dec. 3,
9 :56 pm, mess. 901, registered on Dec. 4, 6 :23 pm, mess. CTP list
904) ;


. Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006, 1st): 0
(except if at least 1 withdrawal of candidacy occurs from 9th Dec.
2005 16:05 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time).


According to the current laws of Nova Roma, Honorable Julilla
Sempronia Magna for aedilitas, and Hon. Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa,
Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, Cnaeus Salix Astur, Marcus Arminius
Maior and Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus, for the tribunate, are
the sole candidates legally authorised to enter the next comitia
plebis tributa which is going to be convened on the annual elections
for 2759 auc of the plebeian magistracies.

Good luck to all these candidates and, good vote for you all,
Plebeians. Pales, Ceres and Minerva be with you all !

Valete omnes.

On behalf of Marcus Bianchius Antonius, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,
Caius Curius Saturninus, Marca Hortensia Maior, and myself, Tribuni
plebis,


P. Memmius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40515 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Running for Tribune
Well if he acts up we will just have to pummel him
with roof tiles.
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cn. Salvio omnibusque sal.
>
> Goodness, has M. Bianchius been tribune this year? I
> thought I recognized his name. Well, if he has, I
> quite agree that he should not run again this year,
> and I feel rather silly for not spotting it earlier.
> One glance at the late republic is surely enough to
> satisfy anyone that it is a very bad idea for any
> tribune to hold office for two years in a row.
>
>
>
>
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S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40516 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Salve, Publius Memmius Albucius; salvete, omnes.

On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 02:48:00PM -0000, Tribune Albucius wrote:
> Publius Memmius Albucius Gaio Fabio Buteoni Modianus Pompeiae
> Minuciae Tiberiae s.d.
>
> Hon. Hortensia has apparently decided not to confirm her will to run
> for aedile, for she has not declared her candidacy in the CPT list
> (cf the tribunate call in ML 39856).
>
> Concerning the "Election page: http://novaroma.org/bin/election",
> which is a non official page, I have however already asked Consul
> Caesar, in the previous weeks, to get it corrected and/or actualized.

I'm afraid that your information about that last part is incorrect,
amice: Consul Caesar has checked that page over and declared the
information to be correct and official, right here on the Main List. I
don't have the message number, but that was the last official statement
that I saw here in that regard.

I have also not been officially asked to remove her candidacy from the
list, and I have been in daily communication with Consul Caesar;
therefore, to the best of my knowledge, her candidacy stands.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
Magister Aranearius
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40517 From: FAC Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: The Comitia Populi Tributa is called
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Consul Omnibus SPD

The Comitia Populi Tributa is called to vote for the Tribal
magistrates for calendar year 2759 auc.

The Contio will begin at 8:00 PM, Roma time (Central European Time),
on IX Dec. and will last until 5:59 PM, Roma time, on XII Dec.
Voting will then commence at 6:00 PM (CET) on XII Dec and will end
at 6:00 PM (CET) on XXI Dec 2005.

The presidium tribe shall be Cornelia (tribe VI).


The magistracies, and the candidates for them, are:

----------

AEDILIS CURULIS (2 openings)

Gaius Equitius Cato
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7186

Titus Iulius Sabinus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=8092

----------

QUAESTOR (8 openings)

Marcus Iulius Perusianus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=3398

Aulus Apollonius Cordus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4701

Titus Flavius Vespasianus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=6752

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7228

Quintus Fabius Allectus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7641

Caius Arminius Reccanellus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7658

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7694

Titus Marcius Felix
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=8193

--------------

ROGATOR (2 openings)

Aula Tullia Scholastica
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=6596

Gaius Marius Aquilius
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7766

Marcus Iulius Severus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=8632

---------------

DIRIBITOR (4 openings)

Quintus Servilius Priscus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=2369

Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=252

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4281

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=49

---------------

CUSTOS (2 openings)

Emilia Curia Finnica
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=2186

Titus Licinius Crassus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4657

---------------

MAGISTER ARANEARIUS (webmaster, 1 opening)

Quintus Valerius Callidus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=6903

Decimus Claudius Aquilius
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7705

---------------

EDITOR COMMENTARIORUM (editor of the Aquila, 1 opening)

Marcus Cassius Philippus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=6379

---------------



At the same time the citizens are convened to vote for the following
leges.

**ATTENCTION**
Here two laws about the same matter are listed, the LEX APULA DE
ABDICATIONE MAGISTRATUUM and LEX POPILLIA DE MAGISTRATU EIURANDO.
Please, ONLY VOTE "YES" FOR ONE OF THEM.
Be careful and vote NOT for the law you don't like.





LEX APULA DE TRIBUTIS

I. The collection of an annual fee from members is a commonplace
activity in membership organizations such as Nova Roma. Whereas Nova
Roma is currently legally constituted as a
nonprofit coorporation in the State of Maine in the
United States of America, and whereas the setting of annual fees and
taxes is a power granted to the Senate by the Constitution of Nova
Roma this Law setting the amount of taxes and the means by which
they are collected is hereby enacted.

II. A. Each citizen eighteen years of age or older is hereby
assessed an annual tax of one three-thousandth of the per-capita GDP
of his nation of residence. The Consules may use the best available
source to calculate the national GDPs (like ONU, etc.).

B. In order that the amounts may be more manageable in local
currencies, the Consules may, by edict, alter the amount for any
country by up to 10%, upwards or downwards; adjustments greater than
10% may be made by Senatus Consultum only.

C. The Consules' Quaestores will compile and publish a list of rates
before the start of the collection period.

III. Taxes are due, paid in full, no later than the last day of
October. A given taxation year in Nova Roma begins November 1 and
ends October 31 the following year.

Cives who pay their taxes by October 31 shall be considered Assidui
according to the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi and consequent
laws.
Cives who fail to pay their taxes by this date shall be considered
Capiti Censi according to the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi
and consequent laws.

The Senatus may, at its discretion, issue a Senatus Consultum
extending the deadline for paying taxes on a provincia-by-provincia
basis, in case of extraordinary mitigating circumstance.

IV. The Senatus can foster the collection of taxes with the aid and
assistance of
the local governors.

A.i. Provincial Propraetores may, by whatever means they deem
necessary, efficient, and within the bounds of applicable
macronational and Nova Roma law, appoint by edicta one or more
provincial
magistrates to collect the annual tax payments from the cives who
choose to pay taxes within their provincia.

ii. Said collected funds are forwarded to the Propraetor or his
designate, and are held in trust.

iii. Propraetors or their appointed designate, shall then transfer
said
collected funds for deposit in the central
treasury no later than the last day of October of the taxation year

iv. Propraetores shall deduct
any required fees and costs of tranferring their collected funds
from the funds themselves. At the time they make the tax transfer,
they shall also
transmit a report to the appropriate Consular Quaestor denoting
which cives
have paid their taxes and thus should be listed as assidui, as well
as the amount and particulars of any funds deducted by the
Propraetor from the amount submitted to the central treasury.

B.i. Citizens shall in no way be required to pay their taxes through
the
local/provincial administration. If they so choose, Citizens may
pay their taxes directly to the Consular Quaestors through those
means they shall provide.

ii. The Consular Quaestors shall issue receipts to individual cives
as
taxes are collected, as an instrument of proof of payment thereof.

iii. The Consular Quaestors shall provide a report to the Censores
detailing which cives have paid their taxes and thus should be
listed as assidui.

V. TAX FUNDS FROM CENTRAL TREASURY TO PROVINCIAE
Those individuals charged with the collection of taxes shall
maintain a record of what amounts were raised in each Provincia, and
such records will be provided to the Senate no later than the Ides
of November.

VI.i. One half of all taxes raised within a particular Provincia
shall
be designated to be spent within the boundaries of that Provincia.

ii.Such funds shall be kept in the central treasury, as managed by
the
Consular Quaestors, and shall be disbursed by the Quaestors to
provincial
authorities as authorized in the annual budget.


iii. The annual budget, as prepared, shall reflect such designated
funds,
whether or not they are actually budgeted to be spent within the
year.

iv. Funds designated to be spent within a provincia which are not
spent
within a given fiscal year, shall roll over to the next year, and
such
information shall be reflected in the annual budget.

v. The Senatus may, in times of emergency, use funds designated for
use
within a given Provincia. Such funds shall be replaced within three
calendar years by funds from the central treasury.

VII. This Law shall apply only to annual taxes, and shall not be
deemed to apply to other funds which may be collected during the
course of a year, including but not limited to voluntary donations
and other fees which may be imposed.

VIII. Provincia Propraetores are authorized to collect the annual
tax from citizens of their Provinciae by means afforementioned, and
they could be called at
Senatus discretion to provide the Senate with the following:

i. Proof of identity, in the form of copies of macronational
government-issued identification cards, drivers' licenses or
passports.

ii. Written agreement that all money collected is the property of
Nova Roma and will be sent to the Senatus on demand, and that a list
of citizens who have paid will be provided to the Censores within
one month after the collection period has ended.

iii. A description of preferred methods of payment (money order,
electronic transfer, etc.) and the address (postal or electronic) to
which payments should be sent. These payment instructions will be
published on the Nova Roma web site and mailing lists.

IX. Propraetores who have received authorization to accept tax
payments, as defined in Section VIII, may keep one half of funds
collected for use within the province; this money remains the
property of Nova Roma but may be spent by the provincial Propraetor
on
activities that benefit Nova Roma. The remaining half, minus
transfer fees, must be transferred to the Central Treasury.

X. INFORMATION AND METHODS OF PAYMENT
i. Each year the Consules will announce the begin of the taxes-
raising by an edictum indicating the methods and all the information
for the correct payment of the taxes checking them with the
Central Tresury.

ii. Each provincial propraetor is invited to translate the consular
edictum in all the tongue used in the own Provincia. He may publish
the translated edictum in any comunicational media used in the
Provincia.




++++++++++++++++++++




LEX APULA DE ABDICATIONE MAGISTRATUUM

This lex proposes amendments to the prevailing sections of The lex
Cornelia Maria Civitate Eiuranda
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-iii.html.

Please note that section III of this lex Cornelia Maria was
repealed last year by the Lex Equitia De Civitate Eiuranda
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-10-07-v.html which
addresses the return of ex-citizens to NR et al.

The amended language to the sections of the lex Cornelia Maria de
civitate eiuranda shall read:

"II. If a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the
resignation will not be considered a legally binding resignation for
nine days (inclusive) from the date of the resignation tender.

A. If, during these 9 days , defined as 216 hours Roman Time from
the legally tendered (or submitted) intent of resignation, the
citizen desires to withdraw his or her resignation of citizenship
and remain a citizen, he/she may freely do so. The same legal
methods used to submit the resignation must be used to rescind it,
said legal means defined by the prevailing section I of the Lex
Cornelia Maria de civitate eiuranda.

B. If a magistrate resigns from his or her office(s) (retaining
citizenship), said magistrate
is granted a period of 4 days from a legally tendered resignation(s)
of office(s) to withdraw said resignation(s) by lawful process and
resume their term(s) of office(s). The offices in question shall not
be considered legally vacant until said 4 days as defined in section
C. below have passed.

C. The magistrate may within this four day period, defined herein
as 96 hours Roman Time from the time of the resignation tender, to
rescind his/her intention to resign. The same legal methods used to
submit the resignation must be used to rescind it. Such legal means
defined by the prevailing section I of the Lex Cornelia Maria de
civitate eiranda.

D. The magistrate who resigns from his/her office gets no past
service century points for the resigned office(s) and may not serve
in any office, elected or appointed during the remainder of the year
he/she has resigned nor in the year following the resignation."



+++++++++++++++++++++++



LEX POPILLIA DE MAGISTRATU EIURANDO

I. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
magistracy shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold that magistracy.

II. A magistrate who announces his resignation of
citizenship shall immediately and irrevocably cease to
hold any and all his magistracies.

III. An announcement of intention to cease to hold
office at some later time or to cease to be a citizen
at some later time is not an announcement of
resignation for the purposes of this lex.

IV. A magistrate who resigns his magistracy and later
changes his or her mind may stand as a candidate in
the election to fill the vacancy without penalty.



++++++++++++++++++++



LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE

I. PREMISE.

A. Topics of Discussion.
The Nova Roma Forum (herein referred to as "the main list" or "the
Forum") is currently located at: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com. The
main focus of the main list is Nova Roma and ancient Rome.
Nevertheless discussion about non-Roman topics are allowed in the
Forum except when otherwise stated (see III. F)

B. Language Policies.
The forum in ancient Rome was a large venue, with many people of
different cultures and languages conversing. Official information
was in Latin, and in some cases Greek, but people were free to speak
informally in the language of their choice. Our constitution
mandates freedom of communication provided it is not dangerous or
disruptive. On demand, the Praetores can invite or oblige the sender
to make a translation in Latin or English for the benefit of the
other citizens.
Exception: All official documents published on the list must follow
the Lex Cornelia de Linguis Publicis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html) which
stipulates, though comitial mandate, that any official government
legislation or priestly decrees must be issued in Latin or English
where applicable, so they can be translated verbatim into other
languages to be more easily understood by the entirety of the
populace.

C. Governance of the list
According to the Lex Octavia de Sermone
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-06-05-i.html) the
Praetors govern the list.


II. MANDATORY BEHAVIOUR IN THE NOVA ROMA FORUM.

A. Relevance of the posts
It is not advisable to issue a message lacking benefit or relevance
to the rest of the Main List subscribers. A systematic use of such
replies is forbidden.

B. Inappropriate behaviours.
At all times maintain politeness in the expression of one's opinion
and endeavour to respect the rights and opinions of others.
Inappropriate behaviour includes:

use of words, epithets or formulas that are properly offensive or
might be considered normally offensive
making another person look foolish;
name-calling;
criticising the sender in her/his character rather than her/his
ideas;
making derogatory, belittling, or subjective statements about the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome and her religious institutions or
belittling other beliefs and religious institutions (however,
quoting from a myth or historical material is allowed);
Further, in the interests of protecting our younger citizens, sexual
references, including those to nudity, must be strictly within the
context of an historical discussion. Otherwise, they are to be made
in private.
In addition, for the same reason, references to heavy drinking,
extreme violence, and the like shall also be confined to a strictly
educational context, not presented as desirable behaviours.
Extensive citation from other authors without permission, or any
citation from any sources without attribution. Short quotes need
not require permission, but all material must be attributed to its
source.




C. Public or private posts.
Always contact first the individual concerned privately, explaining
the rationale for grievance and asking for clarification. In a
second instance contact the Praetores directly if not able to
resolve the issue privately.

D. Spamming
Due to high levels of spam and past incidents of posts from those
who wish to cause disruption (usually named "trolls"), a policy of
placing all new list members on Moderated Status is followed in the
list. This period of moderation shall last from a minimum of one
month and a maximum of two months, variable for each subscriber,
according to the Praetors' decision in view of the general frequency
of his posts.


E. Advertising

Advertisement of unsolicited goods and services (a.k.a. UCE or spam)
is not permitted on the main list, unless the advertiser is a member
of Nova Roma's marketplace, the Macellum. Macellum merchants are
welcome to advertise from time to time in a low-key fashion.
Permitted forms of this include a standard email signature (four-
line maximum), a one-time announcement of initial affiliation with
the Macellum, advertising in response to a post of inquiry made in
the forum, or an ad once per quarter advertising your presence in
the Macellum.


F. Sanctions
In the case of a poster whose actions violate the guidelines
mentioned in art.II in , the following course of escalation shall be
followed:

a private memo from the Praetors describing the infraction, and a
reminder to review the guidelines; a public notification over the
mailing list that a memo has been sent to the poster for breaking
the Forum rules.
a second public memo describing the infraction, and a reminder to
review the guidelines, if sanction described at point 1 was already
applied in the last year.
placement of the poster on moderated status (posts are still allowed
but will be reviewed by the Praetors or their designate before being
transmitted to the list), if sanction described at point 2 was
already applied in the last year. The length of moderation shall be
determined by the number of offences in the past, the severity of
the violation, and the intent to violate. No citizen shall be kept
in moderated status for more than two months without a firm sentence
issued by a legal court as described by the Lex Salicia Poenalis:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-10-08-ii.html.


III. DISCRETIONARY BEHAVIOUR IN THE FORUM.

A. Message Trimming.
Correct usage of snipping prevents large posts that can quickly fill
subscribers' mailboxes. When replying to a thread, snip unnecessary
sections of the original post for brevity, and indicate where done
so by printing <snipped> or any other understandable mark at the
appropriate place.

B. Disputes.
It is entirely appropriate to disagree publicly with another's
stated views or actions, including the actions of Nova Roma's
Magistrates, Senate or other appointed officials.
Observe the following when expressing disagreement of opposing
viewpoints:

1. Express respect for the person and their entitlement to an
opinion, as well as faith in his or her good intentions;
Point out the specific areas in which one do not agree;
Always use a specific criticism instead of a generic one;
Quote the message number of the post in which one base his account
and opinions, or include sufficient context from the post to which
one is replying;

C. Replies
The main list is set up so that replies are automatically sent to
the entire list. Posts that merely voice agreement with a previous
post without expanding on an issue in any way shall be avoided.

D. Personal information.
Do not give out any personal information (i.e., address, phone
number, etc.) on the list.

E. Sources.
Provide the references of the sources when posting a text copied
from any other source of information.

F. Off-topics.
As stated, off-topic messages are admitted in the forum until the
Praetors declare the thread not admissible or no ore admissible.

G. Sanctions.
In the case of a poster whose actions violate the guidelines
mentioned in art.III, the following course of escalation shall be
followed at Praetors' discrection.

A private memo from the Praetors describing the infraction, and a
reminder to review the guidelines
A second private memo as above, if sanction described at point 1 was
already applied in the last year.
A third public memo as above, if sanction described at point 2 was
already applied in the last year.
The Praetores shall decide what, if any, sanctions to apply,
according to their own judgement. After coming to an agreement with
one another concerning the nature and level of any applicable
sanctions, the Praetores shall impose such penalties fairly on all
offenders, whatever their political, religious, or other leanings.
The length of moderation shall be determined by the number of
offences in the past, the severity of the violation, and the intent
to violate. No citizen shall be kept in moderated status for more
than two months without a firm sentence issued by a legal court as
described by the Lex Salicia Poenalis:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-10-08-ii.html.



+++++++++++++++++++++



LEX FABIA DE NOMINIBUS APPROBATIONIBUSQUE


PREAMBLE: 2
BASIS OF AUTHORITY 2
DEFINITIONS 2
I. NAMES IN NOVA ROMA 4
I.1. Nomenclature. 4
I.1.2. Praenomen. 4
I.1.3. Nomen 5
I.1.4. Cognomen. 5
I.2. Name Change 6
I.2.1. Introduction 6
I.2.2. Adoption involving two cives belonging to two different
gentes. 7
I.2.3. Adoption involving two cives belonging to the same gens. 7
II. APPROVAL PROCEDURES AND NAMES 8
II.1. Introduction 8
II.2. Approval authority. 8
II.2.1. Approval authority in a Familia and/or Domus. 8
II.2.2. Approval authority in a Gens. 9
III. SOURCES. 10


PREAMBLE:

This lex provides a frame in the way prospective citizens can choose
their roman name. It encompasses historical research in the form of
attested lists of Republican names and takes into consideration the
laws of Nova Roma that deal with citizenship approval and the scope
of Pater/Mater Familias authority on this particular matter.
Application to Nova Roman citizenship implies acceptance and
agreement to the terms of the present lex and is subject to a
probationary period as described by Lex Equitia De Tirocinio Civium
Novorum. The Censores reserve the right to refuse any application
that does not abide by the following articles.

For the purpose of this lex, and as per Lex Labiena de Gentibus is
recognised as the basic unit of society in Nova Roma. Gentes are
composed of many different familiae that share the same nomen.
Pater/Materfamilias are head of these officially recognised familiae
and not of the gentes. This lex spells out the procedures that the
Censores will follow in dealing with the approval of prospective
citizens to Nova Roma and the incidence those procedures will have
on their names.

This lex hereby complements the Lex Cornelia et Maria de Mutandis
Nominibus whose article II.E is repealed. Whenever a contradition
arises between the Lex Cornelia et Maria de Mutandis Nominibus and
the present lex de Nominibus Approbationibusque, the present lex
shall have precedence.

BASIS OF AUTHORITY

This lex is based on Lex Labiena de Gentibus :

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-12-24-ii.html

and Lex Equitia de Familia:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-10-07-vii.html

And takes into consideration the fact that Familiae are now the
basic social units of Nova Roma. As such Pater/Materfamilias are now
head of Familiae (natural or adopted) and not Gentes as was
previously the case.


DEFINITIONS:

The definitions below are provided to help cives understand the
context within which Nova Roman nomenclature applies.

- A Familia (pl familiae) (household) constists of:
A pater or materfamilias and all who are in their potestas or manus.
OR
Two heads of household together in a free marriage and all who are
in their shared potestas.

- A Domus (pl domus) or or Stirps (pl. Stirpes) is an informal
group of people who all share the same "nomen-cognomen" combination.
There are no recognised heads of Domus; The heads of the familiae
whose pater/materfamilias belong to the domus may, however, act in
concert to authorise any new citizen to use their "nomen-cognomen"
combination.

- A Gens (pl gentes) regroups all the people who share the same
nomen.
There are no recognised heads of Gentes in Nova Roma. As long as a
new citizen does not choose an existing "nomen-cognomen" combination
(see domus), he/she can choose to join any gens he/she likes.


I. NAMES IN NOVA ROMA
I.1. Nomenclature.

As per Roma Antiqua the nomenclature of free male citizens is that
of the "tria nomina" (three names) formed as "praenomen-nomen-
cognomen". The preferred choice for female nomenclature in Nova Roma
is also the "tria nomina": This is to reflect the equal treatment of
each prospective citizen, regardless of his/her gender, required by
the constitution. The Censores, however, MAY recognise the Roman
tradition in naming female citizens and may, in certain exceptional
cases and after a personal application to the Censores, allow the
following nomenclatures: "nomen only" or "nomen-cognomen"

I.1.2. Praenomen.

Here is presented a list of Republican praenomina available to the
prospective citizen. Each praenomen has been historically researched
and attested. This list will be reviewed as and when new evidence
comes to light : Please note that NO Praenomen that does not appear
on this list will be accepted by the Censorial office without a
special application. Please note that this list includes all the
most common praenomina : They are accepted as standards by most
scholars and will also be accepted by the censores without
discussion. There are however a few other, far less common,
praenomina available on request, look below.

Praenomina are very often abbreviated, and the abbreviations will be
used in
most official communications and records.

Common praenomina
The praenomina nearer to the beginning of the list are more
frequent; those nearer to the end are less frequent.

Abbreviation Male Female

C. Gaius Gaia

L. Lucius Lucia

M. Marcus Marca

P. Publius Publia

Q. Quintus Quinta

T. Titus Tita

Ti. Tiberius Tiberia

Sex. Sextus Sexta

A. Aulus Aula

D. Decimus Decima

Cn. Gnaeus Gnaea

Sp. Spurius Spuria

M'. Manius Mania

Ser. Servius Servia

Ap. Appius Appia

N. Numerius Numeria

V. Vibius Vibia


Rare praenomina
A list of Republican rare praenomina available to the prospective
citizen is presented on the Name page (Index Nominum) of the main
Nova Roma Webiste:

http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/names.html

This list will be updated by the Censores as new evidence comes to
the foreground.

These praenomina are only available on request and such requests
must be approved by the Censores.


I.1.3. Nomen.

The Nomen or genticile serves to identify which gens a prospective
citizen will belong to. The list of Nomina (or gentes) available in
Nova Roma can be found in the album gentium. A citizen wishing to
join a familia within a gens must seek the approval of the
Pater/materfamilias of the said familia. The choice of a gens is
subject to the articles II.2.1. and II.2.2. of the present lex.

Prospective citizens are authorised to petition the Censores if they
wish to create a new Gens, thus introducing a new nomen in Nova
Roma. If their claim is justified, historically valid and supported
by adequate evidence, the censores may, exceptionally, consider such
request and eventually decide to authorise the creation of a new
gens.

I.1.4. Cognomen.

The magistrates of Nova Roma understand the personal nature of
cognomina and the fact that they reflect physical or behavioural
characteristics. Therefore cognomina may be accepted even if they
don't appear on the recommended list. The prospective citizen must
be able to justify his/her choice on either historical or personal
grounds and that must be subject to the expressed condition that the
chosen cognomen be a Latin word. Please note the restriction applied
to cognomina that are already attached to a family in a particular
gens (see point II.2.1.2 of the present lex). A list of recommended
cognomina can be found in the Nova Roma web-pages for Roman names.
This list will be updated by the Censores as and when new evidence
comes to light.

Special Cognomina.
This lex revokes article II.E of Lex Cornelia et Maria de Mutandis
Nominibus whereby special cognomina were known under the
word "agnomina".

Honorary cognomina including, but not limited to, Maximus, Magnus,
Augustus are conferred upon a citizen by special dispensation. They
can be awarded by a vote of the Senate in recognition of service to
Nova Roma. They are not available to be chosen at the application
stage.

Geographical honorary cognomina that refer to a provincia or regio
(ie Germanicus, Britannicus) of Nova Roma and Roma Antiqua are
subject to the same limitations as they were customarily bestowed
upon a general after a succesful campaign.
Rare exceptions can be made by the censores in the case of citizen
born in the provincia covering the territory of his/her macronation.
In that latter case, the geographical cognomen will not be seen as
honorary and can be requested at the application stage.

Cognomina that refer to the name of a deity will not currently be
accepted unless the prospective citizen specifically expresses a
desire to honour a god or goddess that he/she already worships and
contact the Censores to present his/her case prior to sending
his/her application.

I.2. Name Change.

I.2.1. Introduction

The choice of a Roman name being a very personal and intimate
matter, the Censores and their staff must do their utmost to guide
and help prospective citizens to choose the right name on the first
instance. As such, no name change should be allowed after the
original application has been approved to the satisfaction of all
parties involved. However, on exceptional circumstances, the
Censores reserve the right to authorise such name change if the
citizen in question can effectively argue his/her case and only if
this change affects the praenomen, cognomen or agnomen. The ruling
of the Censores is final.

In case of a nomen change (ie change of gens), the only procedure
authorised is that of adoption. Adoption takes the forms of
adrogatio or adoptio according to the status, Sui Iuris or Alieni
Iuris, of the adopted party. The procedures of Adoption are defined
by the Lex Equitia De Familia and the effect on name are described
below : The citizen wishing to change his/her nomen must seek
approval from the new Pater/Materfamilias whose domus he/she wishes
to be part of. Upon approval, this prospective citizen will take the
praenomen, nomen and eventual cognomen of his/her new
Paterfamilias/Materfamilias.

Recent experiences, however, where the Censorial Cohors had to deal
with multiple adoptions of several members of the same gens into one
familia has shown that in these cases the only distinction between
members of that familia would have been to add yet another cognomen
(primus, secundus, tertius etc) to distinguish one civis from the
other. The censorial office judged that this solution was not
satisfactory as it cannot ensure that each civis would easily be
identifiable nor that his/her own individuality would truly be
reflected in their new name.
The following articles, I.2.2 and I.2.3, reflect those experiences
and propose a way of dealing with adoptions that is consistent with
traditional Roman nomenclature and the spirit of flexibility and
practicality that were qualities of our forefathers.

I.2.2. Adoption involving two cives belonging to two different
gentes.

I.2.2.1. The adopted party will take the Nomen AND Cognomen of
his/her adopting parent.
I.2.2.2. The adopted party will add to his/her new name a second
cognomen based on the root of his/her old Nomen to which will be
added -ianus/iana according to the gender.
I.2.2.3. The adopted party will be able to retain his/her praenomen
should he/she wish to, so long as the adopting parent agrees.
I.2.2.4. example : M. Anicius Brutus wishes to be adopted by the
paterfamilias L. Lucretius Candidus. M. Anicius Brutus wishes to
keep his Praenomen Marcus. His new name, after the adoption is
completed will be: M. Lucretius Candidus Anicianus.

I.2.3. Adoption involving two cives belonging to the same gens.

I.2.3.1. The adopted party will take the Nomen AND Cognomen of
his/her adopting parent.
I.2.3.2. The adopted party will retain his/her old Cognomen and use
it as a second cognomen in his new name. This second cognomen will
not be inherited by his/her filiifamilias.
I.2.3.3. The usual Cognomen resulting from adoption (ending in -
ianus/-iana and based on the root of the nomen of the adopted party
and as defined by the Lex Equitia de Familia) is dropped.
I.2.3.4. The adopted party will be able to retain his/her praenomen
should he/she wish to, so long as the adopting parent agrees.
I.2.3.5. Example: M. Anicius Brutus wishes to be adopted by the
paterfamilias L. Anicius Lepidus. M. Anicius Brutus wishes to keep
his Praenomen Marcus. His new name, after the adoption is completed,
will be: M. Anicius Lepidus Brutus. Please note the difference with
point I.2.2.4 above where the new name would have been: M. Anicius
Lepidus Anicianus.


II. APPROVAL PROCEDURES AND NAMES.

II.1. Introduction

II.1.1. This lex applies the revocation by Lex Labiena de Gentibus
of the right of former heads of Gentes (until now also known as
Pater/Materfamiliares) to approve or reject the application of a
prospective citizen to join a particular Gens.

II.1.2. This lex confirms the right of heads of Familiae known as
Pater/Materfamilias to approve or reject the application of a
prospective citizen to join a particular Familia.

II.2. Approval authority.

II.2.1. Approval authority in a Familia and/or Domus.

II.2.1.1. Familia.

Each Familia duly registered with the censorial office will be
headed by a Pater/Materfamilias chosen as per the recommendations
found in Lex Labiena de Gentibus.

II.2.1.2. Domus

Each Domus duly registered with the censorial office will be
confirmed in its position by the right of using a reserved and
specific cognomen within a Gens to differentiate itself from other
Domus in that Gens.

No prospective citizen of a particular Gens may choose the cognomen
of a Domus already existing within that Gens, unless the prospective
citizen has been approved by all the Patres/Matresfamilias of the
familiae existing in the said Domus. In effect the new prospective
citizen will become the pater/materfamilias of a new Familia within
the Domus.

Existing citizens must go through the process of Adoption (either
adoptio or adrogatio) to enter an existing Domus. See point I.2.3

II.2.1.3. Approval authority of the Pater/Materfamilias

The Pater/Materfamilias of a Familia duly registered with the
censorial office will have the ultimate authority in accepting or
rejecting the application of any prospective citizen wishing to join
this Familia.

II.2.1.4. The duty of the Pater/Mater Familias in guiding
prospective Citizens.

II.2.1.4.1. As the person responsible to welcome new citizens into
the Familia and guiding them in Nova Roma, the Pater/Materfamilias
has the duty to help and support the prospective citizen in his/her
choice of name, following the laws and edicta that guide such
selection, before the familial approval reaches the censorial office.

II.2.1.4.2. Should it come to the attention of the Censores that a
Pater/Materfamilias repeatedly approves prospective citizens with
names that do not compy with the present lex, a censorial
investigation may be launched as to why that is. If no satisfactory
explanation is provided, the Censores may issue a public reprimand
against the said Pater/Materfamilias for non adherence to Nova Roman
practice as defined by the laws, edicta and decreta of Nova Roma.

II.2.2. Approval authority in a Gens.

II.2.2.1. The Gens in Nova Roma

II.2.2.1.1. A Gens in Nova Roma is composed of many different
Familiae that share a common nomen.

II.2.2.1.2. Although members of a particular Gens may wish to
organise themselves as they see fit, for the purpose of this lex and
in accordance with Lex Labiena de Gentibus the Censores do not
recognise the authority of a head of a Gens as far as approving
citizens is concerned.

II.2.2.1.3. Building on the above point, closed Gentes are now
abolished as prospective citizens are free to join any Gens they
wish as opposed to officially recognised Familiae and Domus that are
allowed to present possible restrictive entry conditions.

II.2.2.2. Approval authority to acceptance in a Gens.

II.2.2.2.1. Any prospective citizen may choose the Gens of his
choice providing he/she doesn't seek to belong to an already
existing Domus. In the latter case approval authority falls within
the rights and duties of the Pater/Materfamilias as stated in
II.2.1.2.

II.2.2.2.2. The Censores will hold the ultimate authority to approve
or reject prospective citizens seeking admission in a Gens but not
in a recognised Familia.


III. SOURCES.

Roman Nomenclature:

Diana Bowder "Who Was Who In the Roman World", Cornell University
Press, 1980

John Boardman, Jasper Griffin, Oswyn Murray "The Oxford History of
the Roman World", Oxford University Press, 2001

T. Robert S. Broughton "Magistrates of the Roman Republic", Vol. 1
and 2, American Philological Association/Scholars Press, 1986

Mika Kajava "Roman Female Praenomina" Institutum Romanum Findlandiae
Vol. XIV, Rome 1994: Senatorial Women's Praenomina in the Republican
and Imperial Periods ( p. 136)

O. Salomies, "Die romischen Vornamen" (Commentationes Humanarum
Litterarum 82, 1987).

B. Salway, "What's In A Name? A Survey Of Roman Onomastic Practice
From c.700 B.C. to A.D. 700"


http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-Republican-Roman-
Consuls

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csmackay/Consuls.List.html

http://www.hostkingdom.net/consuls.html



++++++++++++++++++++++++



LEX POPILLIA SENATORIA

This lex follows the institutions of the kings in establishing a
maximum size for the senate, and the lex Ovinia of c.318 in setting
guidelines for the selection of new senatores.


I. After each census the censores shall declare a maximum number of
senatores.

a. This number shall be 15% of the total number of assidui at the
time,
or the nearest whole number.

b. This number shall be the maximum number of senatores until the
number is revised by the censores after the following census.

c. This number shall never be lower than the number of senatores who
exist at the time of the declaration, regardless of the number of
assidui.

d. This number shall never exceed 300, regardless of the number of
assidui.

e. After they have declared the maximum number of senatores (and not
before), the censores shall revise the list of senatores.


II. The censores may remove senatores from the list.

a. They shall begin with the list drawn up by the previous censores.

b. They shall first strike from the list those who have died or lost
their citizenship since the last list was drawn up.

c. They may also strike from the list any existing senatores whose
past
conduct they consider seriously harmful to the dignity of the
senate.
They shall make public explanation of their reason for doing so.

d. An existing senator may only be removed from the list with the
agreement of both censores.


III. The censores shall add new senatores to the list.

a. After removing any senatores whom they wish to remove from the
list,
the censores shall sublect (add) new senatores to the list until the
total number of senatores is equal to the maximum which they have
set, or
as near to the maximum as the censores consider reasonable.

b. They shall first sublect any dictatorii (citizens who have
completed
terms as dictator) who have not already been sublected, removed, or
passed over for sublection.

c. They shall next sublect any censorii (citizens who have completed
terms as censor) who have not already been sublected, removed, or
passed
over for sublection.

d. They shall next sublect any consulares (citizens who have
completed
terms as consul) who have not already been sublected, removed, or
passed over for sublection.

e. They shall next sublect any praetores (citizens who have
completed
terms as praetor) who have not already been sublected, removed, or
passed over for sublection.

f. They shall next sublect citizens at their discretion, giving due
weight to their past tenure of public office, to their seniority,
and to
their good character. These may include citizens who were passed
over or
removed from the senate by previous censores.

g. They may pass over for sublection any citizen qualified under
III.b,
c, d, or e whose past conduct they consider would be seriously
harmful
to the dignity of the senate. They shall make public explanation of
their reason for doing so.

e. A new senator may only be added to the list with the agreement of
both censores.


IV. Higher magistrates and ex-magistrates shall be entitled to
attend
meetings of the senate.

a. Any flamen Dialis, dictator, censor, consul, or praetor shall be
entitled to attend meetings of the senate and to vote therein; any
tribunus plebis shall be entitled to attend meetings of the senate
but not to
vote therein.

b. No flamen Dialis, dictator, censor, consul, praetor, or tribunus
plebis shall be counted toward the total number of senatores.

c. Any dictatorius, censorius, consularis, or praetorius shall be
entitled to attend meetings of the senate and to vote therein,
except one
who has been deliberately passed over for sublection.

d. No dictatorius, censorius, consularis, or praetorius shall be
counted toward the total number of senatores unless he or she has
already
been sublected by the censores.


V. A decision of the censores to remove an existing senator, or of
either censor to pass over a citizen for sublection, is not subject
to any
appeal or provocatio and cannot be used as grounds to prosecute any
current or former censor.


VI. The leges Vedia senatoria, Arminia senatoria, and Octavia de
senatoribus are repealed.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40518 From: FAC Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: The Comitia Centuriata is called
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Consul Omnibus SPD

The Comitia Centuriata will assemble to vote for the ordinary
Centuriate magistracies for calendar year 2759 auc.

The Contio will begin at 8:00 PM, Roma time (Central European Time),
on IX Dec. and will last until 5:59 PM, Roma time, on XII Dec.
Voting will then commence according to this schedule:

6:00 PM, XII Dec: Voting by the Centuria Praerogativa *only* begins
6:00 PM, XIII Dec: Rogatores capture tally of Centuria Praerogativa
6:00 PM, XIV Dec: Voting by all First Class centuries now permitted
6:00 PM, XVI Dec: Rogatores capture tally of all First Class
centuries
6:00 PM, XVII Dec: Voting by all centuries now permitted
6:00 PM, XXI Dec: Voting ends

The Rogatores shall provide reports of the progress of the voting in
accordance with the provisions of the LEX FABIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM
CENTURIATORUM.

The Centuria Praerogativa shall be the IX century.

The magistracies to be filled, and the candidates for these
magistracies are:

-----------

CENSOR (1 opening)

Quintus Fabius Maximus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=10

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1222

-----------

CONSUL (2 openings)

Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=289

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4006

-----------

PRAETOR (2 openings)

Caius Curius Saturninus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337

Gaius Geminius Germanus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337

Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337



At the same time the citizens are convened to vote for the following
leges and amendements:



----------

COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #1

The Par. IV of Constitution of Nova Roma is amended as follows.
The line:

'An office becomes vacant when the magistrate resigns or dies.'
(Article IV, Preface)

is hereby replaced by:

'An office becomes vacant when the the sitting magistrate dies or
upon a legally valid resignation as defined by pursuant law''"

++++++++++++++++++++++

COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #2

The Constitution of Nova Roma is amended as follows.
The line:

"E. Tribes and Centuries

1. There shall exist thirty-five tribes, into which the censors
shall divide all of the citizens. Thirty-one of these tribes shall be
designated the Rural tribes, and shall be assigned by the censors as
directed by law passed by the comitia populi tributa. Four of these
tribes shall be designated the urban tribes, and shall be made up of
those citizens who fail to vote in the annual magisterial elections.
Should a member of an urban tribe subsequently vote in an annual
magisterial election, he or she shall be reassigned to a rural
tribe."

is hereby replaced by:

"E. Tribes and Centuries

1. There shall exist thirty-five tribes, into which the censors
shall divide all of the citizens. Thirty-one of these tribes shall be
designated the Rural tribes, and shall be assigned as directed by law
passed by the comitia populi tributa. Four of these tribes shall be
designated the urban tribes, and shall be made up of those citizens
designated as Capiti Censi as defined by applicable law."

+++++++++++++++++++++

LEX APULA DE MAGISTRO ARANEARIO

1. The Magister Aranearius is the official webmaster of Nova Roma.
This law
provides the procedures for the his appointment and his official
activities.

2. The Senatus will appoint the Magister Aranearius in Consultum
following a
review of his curriculum vitae and technical skills. The duration of
the
appointment is to discretion of the Senatus.

3. The magister aranearius is responsible for the design, the
database, the
server and maintenance, and any alteration of the website
www.novaroma.org
and of all official web sites sponsored by the Nova Roma, except for
the parts under the control of other magistrates.

4. The magister aranearius shall solicit input from the other
magistrates and
institutions of Nova Roma regarding content for the web site.

5. The magister aranearius shall have the authority to appoint his
own ASSISTANT, should he deem it necessary.

6. Resignation from the Office must to be announced to the Senatus
at least 30 days before it becomes effective.

7. Paragraph II of the LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-10-07-vi.html is
modified as follows:

"II. In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma, the following
minor
magistracies are defined within the category of Vigintisexviri:

A. Editor of Written News
The editor commentariorum shall be responsible for the production,
publication, and distribution of the official publications sponsored
by the
State.
The editor commentariorum shall have the authority to appoint his
own scribae,
should he deem it necessary.

B. Rogatores. Magistratus ad consignandos suffragium ferentes
1.a. Until the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005), four
rogatores
shall be responsible for the administration of elections and the
recording of
votes among the curiae.
1.b. Each rogator shall have the authority to appoint his own
scribae, should
he deem it necessary.
1.c. The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation
of, four
rogatores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
postpone
a particular election.
1.d. The rogatores may divide their duties amongst themselves as
they see fit
and practical.
1.e. Since the rogatores are by definition privy to the details of
the
election process, they may not run for any elective office while
they serve
in office as rogatores.
2. a. Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January
2005), two
rogatores shall be elected to act as subordinate magistrates to the
censores,
responsible for registering qualified voters, issuing voter codes,
and
administering the routine citizenship application process.
2. b. During intervals when no censors are serving in office, the
rogatores
may carry out the routine maintenance of the Album Civium and the
Album
Gentium in concert with the magister aranearius.
2. c. Each rogator shall have the authority to appoint his own
scribae, should
he deem it necessary.

C. Diribitores--Suffragiorum computatores
Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005), up
to four
diribitores shall be responsible for the counting of votes among the
curiae.
The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of,
four
diribitores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
postpone a particular election.
The diribitores may divide their duties among themselves as they see
fit and
practical with the approval of the custodes.
Since the diribitores are by definition privy to the details of the
election
process, they may not run for any elective office while they serve
in office
as diribitores.
Diribitores shall only count votes, and shall not engage in any tie-
breaking.

D. Custodes. Iudices Electionum
Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005), two
custodes
shall be responsible for certifying the tally of votes in elections
as
reported to them by the diribitores, breaking any ties among the
centuries
and tribes, and providing the results of elections to the magistrates
presiding over the elections.
Since by definition the custodes are privy to the details of the
election
process, they may not run for any elective office while they serve
in office
as custodes.
The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of,
both
custodes shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
postpone a
particular election.
Custodes may, if they choose, assist the diribitores in the vote-
counting
process.
In the event that there are no diribitores, the custodes shall
assume the
duties of diribitores until sufficient diribitores have been
elected."

8. Paragraph II.b.1 of the LEX FABIA CENTURIATA
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-12-02-ii.html is
modified as follows:

"Quaestor and Vigintisexvir and Magister Aranearius:
10 CP
5 CP (past service)"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This lex proposes modification to the Lex Cornelia Octavia De
Assuidi et Capti Censi http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-
12-24-i.html (24 December 2755 A.U.C.)


LEX APULA DE ASSIDUIS ET CAPITE CENSIS

I. This Lex Apula de assidui et capiti censi is hereby enacted to
define the classifications of taxpayers and non-taxpayers, and
put
in place special conditions on those who are unable or unwilling
to
support the financial welfare of the Republic through payment of
those taxes which may be enacted by the Senate.

II. Citizens who pay taxes in such amount and in such manner as
may
be defined by the current legislation shall be considered assidui.
No special
conditions shall be placed on assidui in regards to their
placement
in centuries and tribes or their ability to run for or hold
office.

III. Citizens who do not pay taxes in such amount and in such
manner
as may be defined by the Senate shall be considered capiti censi.
The following special conditions shall apply to capiti censi:

A. The Censors shall place all capiti censi in the last century
in
Class V as defined in the Lex Vedia Centuriata and those leges
which
may amend it, and no other Citizens shall be enrolled therein.

B. The Censors shall place all capiti censi in the urban tribes
as
defined in the Lex Vedia Tributorum and those leges which may
amend
it.

C. No member of the capiti censi may run for or hold office as
one
of the ordinarii (including the apparitores), nor be appointed
to or
hold office as provincial governor, nor be titled as Senatore or
members of the Collegium Pontificium or priest or Sacerdos. Members
of the capiti censi may
hold provincial or local offices at the discretion of the
governor
of the province in question.

D. Members of the Senate and Ordinarii
Sitting magistrates of the ordinarii and Senatores who become
members of the Capite Censi due to non-payment of
taxes may be removed from office by the Censors.

Members of the Collegium Pontificum and priests and sacerdotes who
become members of the Capite Censi due to non-payment of
taxes may be removed from office by the Pontifex Maximus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40519 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called: Warning
Salvete Omnes,

It seems that the four candidates for Praetor have the same Id !

Valete,

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
Aedilician Quaestor


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "FAC" <fraelov@y...> wrote:
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar Consul Omnibus SPD
>
> The Comitia Centuriata will assemble to vote for the ordinary
> Centuriate magistracies for calendar year 2759 auc.
>
> The Contio will begin at 8:00 PM, Roma time (Central European Time),
> on IX Dec. and will last until 5:59 PM, Roma time, on XII Dec.
> Voting will then commence according to this schedule:
>
> 6:00 PM, XII Dec: Voting by the Centuria Praerogativa *only* begins
> 6:00 PM, XIII Dec: Rogatores capture tally of Centuria Praerogativa
> 6:00 PM, XIV Dec: Voting by all First Class centuries now permitted
> 6:00 PM, XVI Dec: Rogatores capture tally of all First Class
> centuries
> 6:00 PM, XVII Dec: Voting by all centuries now permitted
> 6:00 PM, XXI Dec: Voting ends
>
> The Rogatores shall provide reports of the progress of the voting in
> accordance with the provisions of the LEX FABIA DE RATIONE
COMITIORUM
> CENTURIATORUM.
>
> The Centuria Praerogativa shall be the IX century.
>
> The magistracies to be filled, and the candidates for these
> magistracies are:
>
> -----------
>
> CENSOR (1 opening)
>
> Quintus Fabius Maximus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=10
>
> Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1222
>
> -----------
>
> CONSUL (2 openings)
>
> Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=289
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4006
>
> -----------
>
> PRAETOR (2 openings)
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337
>
> Gaius Geminius Germanus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337
>
> Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337
>
>
>
> At the same time the citizens are convened to vote for the following
> leges and amendements:
>
>
>
> ----------
>
> COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #1
>
> The Par. IV of Constitution of Nova Roma is amended as follows.
> The line:
>
> 'An office becomes vacant when the magistrate resigns or dies.'
> (Article IV, Preface)
>
> is hereby replaced by:
>
> 'An office becomes vacant when the the sitting magistrate dies or
> upon a legally valid resignation as defined by pursuant law''"
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #2
>
> The Constitution of Nova Roma is amended as follows.
> The line:
>
> "E. Tribes and Centuries
>
> 1. There shall exist thirty-five tribes, into which the censors
> shall divide all of the citizens. Thirty-one of these tribes shall
be
> designated the Rural tribes, and shall be assigned by the censors as
> directed by law passed by the comitia populi tributa. Four of these
> tribes shall be designated the urban tribes, and shall be made up of
> those citizens who fail to vote in the annual magisterial elections.
> Should a member of an urban tribe subsequently vote in an annual
> magisterial election, he or she shall be reassigned to a rural
> tribe."
>
> is hereby replaced by:
>
> "E. Tribes and Centuries
>
> 1. There shall exist thirty-five tribes, into which the censors
> shall divide all of the citizens. Thirty-one of these tribes shall
be
> designated the Rural tribes, and shall be assigned as directed by
law
> passed by the comitia populi tributa. Four of these tribes shall be
> designated the urban tribes, and shall be made up of those citizens
> designated as Capiti Censi as defined by applicable law."
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++
>
> LEX APULA DE MAGISTRO ARANEARIO
>
> 1. The Magister Aranearius is the official webmaster of Nova Roma.
> This law
> provides the procedures for the his appointment and his official
> activities.
>
> 2. The Senatus will appoint the Magister Aranearius in Consultum
> following a
> review of his curriculum vitae and technical skills. The duration of
> the
> appointment is to discretion of the Senatus.
>
> 3. The magister aranearius is responsible for the design, the
> database, the
> server and maintenance, and any alteration of the website
> www.novaroma.org
> and of all official web sites sponsored by the Nova Roma, except for
> the parts under the control of other magistrates.
>
> 4. The magister aranearius shall solicit input from the other
> magistrates and
> institutions of Nova Roma regarding content for the web site.
>
> 5. The magister aranearius shall have the authority to appoint his
> own ASSISTANT, should he deem it necessary.
>
> 6. Resignation from the Office must to be announced to the Senatus
> at least 30 days before it becomes effective.
>
> 7. Paragraph II of the LEX EQVITIA DE VIGINTISEXVIRIS
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-10-07-vi.html is
> modified as follows:
>
> "II. In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma, the following
> minor
> magistracies are defined within the category of Vigintisexviri:
>
> A. Editor of Written News
> The editor commentariorum shall be responsible for the production,
> publication, and distribution of the official publications sponsored
> by the
> State.
> The editor commentariorum shall have the authority to appoint his
> own scribae,
> should he deem it necessary.
>
> B. Rogatores. Magistratus ad consignandos suffragium ferentes
> 1.a. Until the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005), four
> rogatores
> shall be responsible for the administration of elections and the
> recording of
> votes among the curiae.
> 1.b. Each rogator shall have the authority to appoint his own
> scribae, should
> he deem it necessary.
> 1.c. The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation
> of, four
> rogatores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
> postpone
> a particular election.
> 1.d. The rogatores may divide their duties amongst themselves as
> they see fit
> and practical.
> 1.e. Since the rogatores are by definition privy to the details of
> the
> election process, they may not run for any elective office while
> they serve
> in office as rogatores.
> 2. a. Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January
> 2005), two
> rogatores shall be elected to act as subordinate magistrates to the
> censores,
> responsible for registering qualified voters, issuing voter codes,
> and
> administering the routine citizenship application process.
> 2. b. During intervals when no censors are serving in office, the
> rogatores
> may carry out the routine maintenance of the Album Civium and the
> Album
> Gentium in concert with the magister aranearius.
> 2. c. Each rogator shall have the authority to appoint his own
> scribae, should
> he deem it necessary.
>
> C. Diribitores--Suffragiorum computatores
> Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005), up
> to four
> diribitores shall be responsible for the counting of votes among the
> curiae.
> The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of,
> four
> diribitores shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate
or
> postpone a particular election.
> The diribitores may divide their duties among themselves as they see
> fit and
> practical with the approval of the custodes.
> Since the diribitores are by definition privy to the details of the
> election
> process, they may not run for any elective office while they serve
> in office
> as diribitores.
> Diribitores shall only count votes, and shall not engage in any tie-
> breaking.
>
> D. Custodes. Iudices Electionum
> Beginning on the Kalends of January MMDCCLVIII (1 January 2005), two
> custodes
> shall be responsible for certifying the tally of votes in elections
> as
> reported to them by the diribitores, breaking any ties among the
> centuries
> and tribes, and providing the results of elections to the
magistrates
> presiding over the elections.
> Since by definition the custodes are privy to the details of the
> election
> process, they may not run for any elective office while they serve
> in office
> as custodes.
> The lack of a full complement of, or the active participation of,
> both
> custodes shall not in and of itself be sufficient to invalidate or
> postpone a
> particular election.
> Custodes may, if they choose, assist the diribitores in the vote-
> counting
> process.
> In the event that there are no diribitores, the custodes shall
> assume the
> duties of diribitores until sufficient diribitores have been
> elected."
>
> 8. Paragraph II.b.1 of the LEX FABIA CENTURIATA
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2003-12-02-ii.html is
> modified as follows:
>
> "Quaestor and Vigintisexvir and Magister Aranearius:
> 10 CP
> 5 CP (past service)"
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> This lex proposes modification to the Lex Cornelia Octavia De
> Assuidi et Capti Censi
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-
> 12-24-i.html (24 December 2755 A.U.C.)
>
>
> LEX APULA DE ASSIDUIS ET CAPITE CENSIS
>
> I. This Lex Apula de assidui et capiti censi is hereby enacted to
> define the classifications of taxpayers and non-taxpayers, and
> put
> in place special conditions on those who are unable or unwilling
> to
> support the financial welfare of the Republic through payment of
> those taxes which may be enacted by the Senate.
>
> II. Citizens who pay taxes in such amount and in such manner as
> may
> be defined by the current legislation shall be considered assidui.
> No special
> conditions shall be placed on assidui in regards to their
> placement
> in centuries and tribes or their ability to run for or hold
> office.
>
> III. Citizens who do not pay taxes in such amount and in such
> manner
> as may be defined by the Senate shall be considered capiti censi.
> The following special conditions shall apply to capiti censi:
>
> A. The Censors shall place all capiti censi in the last century
> in
> Class V as defined in the Lex Vedia Centuriata and those leges
> which
> may amend it, and no other Citizens shall be enrolled therein.
>
> B. The Censors shall place all capiti censi in the urban tribes
> as
> defined in the Lex Vedia Tributorum and those leges which may
> amend
> it.
>
> C. No member of the capiti censi may run for or hold office as
> one
> of the ordinarii (including the apparitores), nor be appointed
> to or
> hold office as provincial governor, nor be titled as Senatore or
> members of the Collegium Pontificium or priest or Sacerdos. Members
> of the capiti censi may
> hold provincial or local offices at the discretion of the
> governor
> of the province in question.
>
> D. Members of the Senate and Ordinarii
> Sitting magistrates of the ordinarii and Senatores who become
> members of the Capite Censi due to non-payment of
> taxes may be removed from office by the Censors.
>
> Members of the Collegium Pontificum and priests and sacerdotes who
> become members of the Capite Censi due to non-payment of
> taxes may be removed from office by the Pontifex Maximus.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40520 From: Ian McKay Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: "RomanTimes," "Pilum," Nova Britannia -- Oct. / Nov. / Dec. Quarter
Ladies and Gentlemen;

I am pleased to announce the subject issues of the three quarterlies for your reading pleasure.

The Nov. / Dec. "Aquila" will be out as soon as the Publisher gets to it. He has been hospitalized recently and so we must give him some latitude in that area.

The "Roman Times, "Pilum," and "Nova Britannia" Quarterlies will continue through the year 2006 as I continue in my Senate Appointed position as Editor Commentorium Seniorus.

The "Roman Times Quarterly"

http://www.livinghistoryengineer.com/roman/RomanTimesQuarterly/index.htm

is similar in content to "Aquila" and serves as an alternate pipeline of information related to Nova Roma and the ancient Roman World to continue one of the major reaons that Nova Roma exists, which is tolearn more about, and immerse oneself in ancient Roman Culture.

"Pilum Quarterly"

http://www.livinghistoryengneer.com/roman/RomanTimesQuarterly/RTQ_Nov05_Pilum.htm

was establshed to share with those who have an interest in the Roman Military of the Ancient Roman Civilization. The Sodalitas Militarium is also a place for those who have the desire to learn more about the Military Historyof Rome.

"Nova Britannia Quarterly"

http://www.livinghistoryengineer.com/roman/RomanTimesQuarterly/RTQ_Nov05_NovaBrittania.htm

is a newsletter for the Provincia of Nova Britannia (New England) which is constituted by the six states of the United States making up it's Northeast corner. This newsletter attempts to convey some of the beauties and things to doof this provincia.

Anyone desiring to place an article in any one of the three newsletters is welcome to do so. The deadline for new articles will be the 15th of the month in each of the following months -- March, June, September, and December. I can on my hardware handle only text material and jpg photos and pictures. More exotic programs such as Word, etc. cannotbe deciphered. Length of one-issue articles should be about one typed page. More than that and the article will be considered for serialization. Any subject relating to the ancient Roman Civilization is welcome with the exception of Politics. It is my belief that we have enough of that on the Main List. Religous articles will be reviewed by a Religous Editor for accuracy and suitability before being placed in the newsletter. This necessity may result in the Religious article being delayed until the following quarter.

Please enjoy these newsletters and consider your own possible contributions.

Very Respectfully

Marcus Minucius Audens

Editor Commentorium Seniorus -- Nova Roma
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40521 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called: Warning
Lucius Rutilius Minervalis wrote:
> It seems that the four candidates
> for Praetor have the same Id !

Salve, Luci Rutili Minervalis.

Yes, we are 1337 - or "leet", as script-kiddies would pronounce it.

Here are the proper IDs, from the election page:

Caius Curius Saturninus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337

Gaius Geminius Germanus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1777

Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1982

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=3443

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40522 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
P. Memmius Albucius Magistri araneario s.d.

"Official" in my message meant "provided by a law" (and then
compulsary).

For you surely keep in mind, dear Magister, that the creation of a
special web page for elections is just a tool to inform the cives
and, in no way to oppose the normal application of laws.

What we need to keep in mind is that a consul may not, with the best
wills in the world - and I know that amicus Caesar do have them -
interfere with plebeian elections. This would be a major break of the
grounds of our res publica.

Third, please remind, amice, that, as magister arenaerius, you do not
belong to the consular offices and, during elections time and in
other circumstances, have to place your skills to the service of both
or either consulate and tribunate.

Tibi gratias, Minucie, and vale.

P. Memmius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" <ben@l...>
wrote:

> I'm afraid that your information about that last part is incorrect,
> amice: Consul Caesar has checked that page over and declared the
> information to be correct and official, right here on the Main
List. I
> don't have the message number, but that was the last official
statement
> that I saw here in that regard.
>
> I have also not been officially asked to remove her candidacy from
the
> list, and I have been in daily communication with Consul Caesar;
> therefore, to the best of my knowledge, her candidacy stands.
>
>
> Valete,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> Magister Aranearius
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40523 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Timeline Question
Salve,

I must say, all of you have taoght me so much in regards to the
religio. It showed how uneducated I was in that area and forced me to
do reading to get on the same page. But one question came to mind.
As I read more into the religion and time frames of religion, it
dawned on me that I did not quite know what time frame Nova Roma
portrays. IF NR portrays as if it never fell, then in roughly 325
christianity became the state religion( if this is the case then when
was christianity overthrown with the old gods reinstated), if NR
portrays a different timeframe, then I need to know, to continue my
education so I may actively involve myself more.

Vale
Marcus Sejanus Marcellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40524 From: FAC Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called: Warning
Salvete Minervalis et Pius et Omnes,

thank you very much for your correction and please accept my sincere
apologies for my mistake.

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Consul


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis wrote:
> > It seems that the four candidates
> > for Praetor have the same Id !
>
> Salve, Luci Rutili Minervalis.
>
> Yes, we are 1337 - or "leet", as script-kiddies would pronounce it.
>
> Here are the proper IDs, from the election page:
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337
>
> Gaius Geminius Germanus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1777
>
> Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1982
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=3443
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40525 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re:
I have a bone to pick w/ ole St. Nick. Apparently he
did not like the insulae of Queens, NYC. When I was
eight I left out a glass of milk and some Chips Ahoy!
cookies with a plea for a toy gladius and a model of a
VIPER fighter from the Battle Star Galactica TV show.
The next morning I was perplexed to find neither were
there. Boy was I heated! My MOM told me that Santa
didnt like Puerto Ricans because we had no chimineys
only fire-escapes and they were beneath him. (True
story.) Now, I spoil my 3 kids rotten so theyll
believe in Pater Christmas for a long time to come. I
also give toys to a couple of kids in the areas I
patrol (of all races!:)) In the hopes that they
actually like the police a few years more, or at least
until college! (and just in case Santa still has a pet
peeve about fire escapes!) BTW- I have my own gladius
now and now that the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA has
proven to be better than the original, TWO viper
models. Take THAT CLAUS!
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:
> SALVETE OMNES !
>
> Look where is the person who destroy our childrens
dreams.
> For that, amice, Santa Claus will deliver you :
> - one test-tube.
> - one fuse.
> - one portable gas chromatographs.
> - one vortex mixer.
> - one aniline point tester.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> PS. And of course, he will deliver you all the best
you wish in your
> life. Ave, amice !
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kristoffer From
<from@d...> wrote:
> >
> > gaiusequitiuscato wrote:
> > > [...] This increases the payload, not counting
the
> > > weight of the sleigh, another 54,000 tons, or
roughly
> > > seven times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth
(the
> > > ship, not the monarch).
> >
> > Salve, Gai Equiti Cato.
> >
> > 554,000 tons traveling at 2000 miles per second,
9,000 times the
> speed
> > of sound, creates enormous air resistance - this
will heat the
> reindeer
> > up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-entering
the earth's
> atmosphere.
> > The lead pair of reindeer will absorb about 350
QUINTILLION joules
> of
> > energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will
burst into flame
> almost
> > instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind
them, and create
> deafening
> > sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer
team will be
> vaporized
> > within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa,
meanwhile, will be
> subjected
> > to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than
gravity. A 250-
> pound
> > Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be
pinned to the back
> of his
> > sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.
> >
> > In conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents
on Christmas
> Eve,
> > he's dead now.
> >
> > Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
> >
> > P.S. Most of my figures are taken without
recalculation with your
> values
> > from a similar estimation found here:
> >
> >
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~dufour/HUMOR/Santas.html
> >
>
>
>
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40526 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Salve, P. Memmius Albucius -

On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 05:04:46PM -0000, Tribune Albucius wrote:
> P. Memmius Albucius Magistri araneario s.d.
>
> "Official" in my message meant "provided by a law" (and then
> compulsary).
>
> For you surely keep in mind, dear Magister, that the creation of a
> special web page for elections is just a tool to inform the cives
> and, in no way to oppose the normal application of laws.

If those who are supposed to be in charge of providing the information
that is necessary for that "tool" to be accurate have not done so, then
you're right - that "tool" is not official; in fact, it's nothing more
than wasted space, is completely wrong - which is worse than useless,
and shouldn't even exist. Either that, or the tribunes have not done
their job - in fact, I have not heard *anything* from you or any other
tribunes in regard to what should be on it, additions, or deletions; the
only person who has communicated with me about is is Consul Caesar. So
which is it?

> What we need to keep in mind is that a consul may not, with the best
> wills in the world - and I know that amicus Caesar do have them -
> interfere with plebeian elections. This would be a major break of the
> grounds of our res publica.
>
> Third, please remind, amice, that, as magister arenaerius, you do not
> belong to the consular offices and, during elections time and in
> other circumstances, have to place your skills to the service of both
> or either consulate and tribunate.

Let's qualify that "have to". I'm a volunteer - not a slave or an errand
boy. Moreover, I don't need anyone to tell me what my job is; anyone who
has dealt with me in my official capacity as Magister Aranearius can
tell you that I perform my job with commitment, dispatch, and all-out
effort. However, if I get told that my work is useless, then I suppose
it makes no difference whether I perform it or not - and you might want
to consider a bit longer before implying that again.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Primum est non nocere.
First of all, do no harm.
-- Hippocrates; The maxim has become an ethical guiding principle in medicine.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40527 From: Tribune Albucius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
P. Memmius Albucius Magistri Arenaerio s.d.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, you wrote:

> Either that, or the tribunes have not done
> their job - in fact, I have not heard *anything* from you or any >
>other tribunes in regard to what should be on it, additions, or
>deletions; the only person who has communicated with me about is is
>Consul Caesar. So which is it?

Because the Consul himself announced the creation of this page, I
have personnally written to Consul Caesar, giving him updated
informations so that no error could be committed or stay in the page.

(..)
> > Third, please remind, amice, that, as magister arenaerius, you do
not
> > belong to the consular offices and, during elections time and in
> > other circumstances, have to place your skills to the service of
both
> > or either consulate and tribunate.

> Let's qualify that "have to". I'm a volunteer - not a slave or an
errand boy.

Me too, Magister. Sorry if we have, as magistrates, obligations
towards the res publica(= "have to"). I "have to", myself to place my
skills, etc.

>Moreover, I don't need anyone to tell me what my job is;
>anyone who has dealt with me in my official capacity as Magister
>Aranearius can tell you that I perform my job with commitment,
>dispatch, and all-out effort.

They are not at stake.

>However, if I get told that my work is useless, then I suppose it
>makes no difference whether I perform it or not - and you might want
>to consider a bit longer before implying that again.

Like everyone of us, who are in public offices. Neither your
technical skills nor your involvement are in debate here, and you
surely are convinced of that.

Vale,

P. Memmius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40528 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 08:15:50PM -0000, Tribune Albucius wrote:
> P. Memmius Albucius Magistri Arenaerio s.d.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, you wrote:
>
> > Either that, or the tribunes have not done
> > their job - in fact, I have not heard *anything* from you or any >
> >other tribunes in regard to what should be on it, additions, or
> >deletions; the only person who has communicated with me about is is
> >Consul Caesar. So which is it?
>
> Because the Consul himself announced the creation of this page, I
> have personnally written to Consul Caesar, giving him updated
> informations so that no error could be committed or stay in the page.

The election pages have existed for much longer than just this election,
Tribune; it was not just now created by Consul Caesar. There have been
election pages for 2754, 2755, mid-2755, 2756, 2757, and now, 2758. The
point is that it's either an official document, and has been all these
years - in which case you should have been sending the data to the
person who is doing the updating - or it's not, in which case, it's just
a useless bunch of words, and I (and all the webmasters before me) have
been misled into thinking that it's important.

As well, if you somehow missed the large number of messages on this list
relating to the Consul being absent for medical reasons, as well as my
statement that I was taking care of updating the page while he was gone,
as well as the discussions which mentioned it in passing, etc., then I
can understand why you would think that you didn't need to notify me. I
suspect, however, that you did read at least a few of those messages -
and decided to communicate the long way around for some reason. I can't
imagine what that reason would be.

Consul Caesar also notified me about having uploading problems and
essentially passing the job to me after he got back - I suspect that if
you had asked him for any changes, he would have let you know that as
well.

> (..)
> > > Third, please remind, amice, that, as magister arenaerius, you do
> not
> > > belong to the consular offices and, during elections time and in
> > > other circumstances, have to place your skills to the service of
> both
> > > or either consulate and tribunate.
>
> > Let's qualify that "have to". I'm a volunteer - not a slave or an
> errand boy.
>
> Me too, Magister. Sorry if we have, as magistrates, obligations
> towards the res publica(= "have to"). I "have to", myself to place my
> skills, etc.

Except it's nobody's place to _tell_ you that you have to - any more
than it's your, or anybody else's place, to tell me so. You're welcome
to point to any of my actions as Magister Aranearius and tell me why
they weren't satisfactory - but you do not get to tell me that I "have
to" do my job; you have neither the mandate to do so, nor the ability to
compel me if I don't.

> >However, if I get told that my work is useless, then I suppose it
> >makes no difference whether I perform it or not - and you might want
> >to consider a bit longer before implying that again.
>
> Like everyone of us, who are in public offices. Neither your
> technical skills nor your involvement are in debate here, and you
> surely are convinced of that.

When I hear a Tribune imply that the work I've put in on an official
document of Nova Roma is somehow "not official", then no, I'm not
convinced of it at all.

You are welcome to correct my perception by telling me "candidate A
should be removed from the page" (perhaps adding "for reason B" as a
courtesy), but claiming that it's "not official" when it has been stated
to be accurate and official by the Consul, and when I have done all that
I've been requested to do with it, is insulting. I prefer to think that
my time is valuable enough that it's not wasted on useless make-work
instead of the vitally important problems I've been struggling with.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Illi robur et aes triplex circa pectus erat, qui fragilem truci commisit pelago
ratem primus.
As hard as oak and three times bronze was the heart of him who first committed a
fragile vessel to the keeping of wild waves.
-- Horace, "Carmina"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40529 From: jrosemary@comcast.net Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
salvete!
I�ve only recently applied for citizenship (under the name Quinta Octavia Mus) but since then I�ve been following this discussion with interest. The Religio Romana is what drew me here, so I�ve enjoyed seeing various opinions on what role it should play in Nova Roma. But I�m beginning to feel �lurker�s guilt,� so I thought I�d best introduce myself and add my own viewpoint.
I�ll confess to being incurably syncretistic. I identify myself as Pagan, but that identification doesn�t stop me from reciting the Pater Noster after performing rituals to the Household Gods�or from attending Mass or synagogue. (As you might have guessed, my family�s religious background is delightfully mixed.)
I understand the misgivings monotheists might have regarding the oath of office. However, I think an interesting parallel can be drawn from the Hippocratic Oath�many devout Jewish and Christian doctors have sworn by Apollo and Asclepius. And demanding an elected official to �honor� the Religio seems to me far different from demanding belief or practice.
That said, I�m not sure I understand why a monotheist would be reluctant to join. As far as I can tell, the web site makes it plain that people of all faiths and practices are welcome.
At any event, I�m glad to see so much discussion on these issues and I look forward to getting to know everyone better.
valete,
Quinta

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Diana Octavia Aventina <dianaaventina@...>
Salve Philippus,

You've made quite a few good points.

<Nothing would change in our organization
> except the substitution of one small phrase and the
> difference in recruitment rates could indeed be
> staggering because of it. Simply replace the
> negative connotations among non-pagans with a
> positive one -

I'm sure that you are correct that there are lots of
non-pagans who are offended by that phrase and then
click to the next website...

Let's say we change the website to suit those people's
tastes. Don't you think that they'd flip when they
find out that there are pagans here amongst them? I
think that the backlash of misrepresenting our
citizenship would be worse. We could be accused of
really being a 'cult' (the crazy kool-aid type).

> Now someone said here that they would prefer quality
> versus quantity, who wouldn't?

That would be my Paterfamilias Marcus Octavius. I have
to agree with him. Since our citizenship consists of
various nationalities, races, cultures and religions,
we shouldn't start changing things around in order to
attract the intolerant.

> Thank you all, now let get off the rostra :-)
Not necessary, the two of us are nice and cozy up here
:-)

Vale!
Diana



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40530 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
---Pompeia Minucia Tiberia P. Albucio Memmico Omnibus s.p.d.

With the greatest respect to your potestas, Tribune Albucius:

I would imagine that, as one possibility, Hortensia assumed she
would not have to announce her candidacy on the CPT as she is in
part convenor of this election, being Tribuna....you are the
spokesperson for the five, no? It is not like she had to announce
her candidacy on the CPT so you would know about it, as you as
Tribunes have your own venue of communication.

This year you have ended all your election announcements with the
names of every Tribune, as I've observed, presented with the
appearance that you are doing the work on behalf of -all- Tribs.

Of course you *may* legally do this, as apparently she didn't follow
your instructions to the letter, indeed.

But what is the objective here, with respect? You are denying
someone a position of service in which in NR is fairly tame
politically, and is rooted largely in religious celebrations and
observances. It is not like a tribune candidacy is wrongfully being
jeopardized.

I could see if there were 50 contenders for the position.

There have been just two. For two positions.

So one plebian aedile must work alone? On games which are legislated
as mandatory in NR?

This is not to challenge your potestas, see above, but to ask you to
please revaluate your decision in terms of benefit to the people,
especially the Plebs. Again, you 'may' do this, but 'should' you? I
encourage you to convene with your colleagues on this....evaluating
the letter and spirit of things both, with respect.

To sideline a bit....

And our website has always listed the candidates. ....I'm sure
atleast since Marcus Octavius Germanicus redesigned it in 2000. It
is part of our Senate-sanctioned 'official' website , so I would
think the candidates' list therein is 'official', as opposed to
other lists which might publish the candidates. Although, granted,
the comprehensiveness of the webpage info is reliant on those with
imperium and potestas who are hosting the elections on behalf of the
magistracies/orders they represent.

So, I think arguing the aspect of its 'officiality' is rather
hairsplitting...surely we don't need a law on the officiality of the
website <sigh>. This is the type of thing, unfortunately, which gets
NR hemmed in by all manner of small, and frustrating laws.

To end, somewhat digressively, when candidates are added to that
webpage they are interpreted by the populace as officially
recognized candidates. For this reason, if there is by chance an
error,to wit: spelling, wrong name of candidate under wrong
magistracy, invalid candidacy....those items of misinformation are
not usually allowed to linger there for days, and its naturally up
to the magistrates convening the election to check this list
regularily for errors or omissions, through collaboration with the
web magister.

Usually.

__

Valete




In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tribune Albucius"
<albucius_aoe@h...> wrote:
>
> Publius Memmius Albucius Gaio Fabio Buteoni Modianus Pompeiae
> Minuciae Tiberiae s.d.
>
> Hon. Hortensia has apparently decided not to confirm her will to
run
> for aedile, for she has not declared her candidacy in the CPT list
> (cf the tribunate call in ML 39856).
>
> Concerning the "Election page: http://novaroma.org/bin/election",
> which is a non official page, I have however already asked Consul
> Caesar, in the previous weeks, to get it corrected and/or
actualized.
>
> At last, we have issued the call for candidacies as tribunes :
this
> issue must not naturally be understood as a registration of
candidacy
> by the signers.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> P. Memmius Albucius
> Tribunus Plebis
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
> <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@y...> wrote:
> >
> > ---Salvete Omnes:
> >
> > Yeah. Where's Hortensia Maior?
> >
> > Po
> >
> >
> > In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@g...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Publio Memmio Albucio salutem dicit
> > >
> > > Did Marca Hortensia Maior decide NOT to run for Plebeian
Aedile?
> > She is
> > > listed on the
> > >
> > > You made a call for candidates and signed her name to it
(since
> > she too is a
> > > Tribune), I assume you are counting her declaration of
candidacy.
> > >
> > > Vale:
> > >
> > > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > >
> > > On 12/9/05, Tribune Albucius <albucius_aoe@h...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Publius Memmius Albucius omnibus Plebeiis ac Quiritibus s.d.
> > > >
> > > > Salvete omnes,
> > > >
> > > > In my message n°896 in Comitia Plebis Tributa list, Thu Dec
1,
> > 2005
> > > > 9:11 pm, on « ELECTIONS - PLEBS - CALL for 2nd period
> > CANDIDACIES »,
> > > > I had, on behalf of the whole Tribunate, the honor to
declare
> > open
> > > > the second period for candidacies to plebeian constitutional
> > offices
> > > > (tribunate and aedilitas).
> > > >
> > > > This second (or « optional ») period has been then scheduled
> > from 1st
> > > > Dec. 2005 0 :00 am to 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time.
> > > >
> > > > The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second
> > period,
> > > > the names of the registered declarations made by every
> candidate
> > in
> > > > the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open
> > magistracies,
> > > > and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted
in
> > the
> > > > next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for
2759
> > auc.
> > > >
> > > > The registered candidacies, included the ones made during
the
> > first
> > > > period (from 25th Nov. 2005 9 :35 pm to 1st Dec. 2005 0:00
am
> > Rome
> > > > time) are :
> > > >
> > > > - *Aedilitas plebis* :
> > > >
> > > > . Open positions : 2
> > > > . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00
am
> > Rome
> > > > time : 1
> > > > . Registered candidate : Julilla Sempronia Magna (CTP list
> > > > declaration on Dec. 5, 7 :13 pm, mess. 906, registered on
Dec.
> 5,
> > > > 11 :14 pm, mess. CTP list 907).
> > > > . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006,
> 1st) :1
> > > > (except if the withdrawal of Hon. Sempronia's candidacy
occurs
> > from
> > > > 9th Dec. 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am
Rome
> > time,
> > > > then 2 vacancies).
> > > >
> > > > - *Tribunatus plebis* :
> > > >
> > > > . Open positions : 5
> > > > . Registered candidacies in CPT list on 9th Dec. 2005 0:00
am
> > Rome
> > > > time : 6
> > > > . Registered candidates :
> > > >
> > > > Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa (CTP list declaration on Nov. 26,
> 12 :14
> > am,
> > > > mess. 890, registered on Nov. 26, 11 :02 am, mess. CTP list
> > 891) ;
> > > >
> > > > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28,
> > 7 :39
> > > > am, mess. 892, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :49 pm, mess. CTP
list
> > 894) ;
> > > >
> > > > Cnaeus Salix Astur (CTP list declaration on Nov. 28, 12 :38
pm,
> > mess.
> > > > 893, registered on Nov. 28, 7 :55 pm, mess. CTP list 895) ;
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Arminius Maior (CTP list declaration on Dec. 2, 9 :10
pm,
> > > > mess. 897, registered on Dec. 2, 11 :31 pm, mess. CTP list
> 899) ;
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus (CTP list declaration on
> > Dec. 3,
> > > > 9 :56 pm, mess. 901, registered on Dec. 4, 6 :23 pm, mess.
CTP
> > list
> > > > 904) ;
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Bianchius Antonius, currently in charge (CTP list
> > declaration
> > > > on Dec. 6, 9 :55 pm, mess. 910, registered on Dec. 7, 7 :54
pm,
> > mess.
> > > > CTP list 911).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > . Vacant office on Kal. Ianuarias 2759 a.u.c. (Jan 2006,
1st):
> 0
> > > > (except if at least 2 withdrawals of candidacy occur from
9th
> > Dec.
> > > > 2005 0:00 am Rome time to 1st Jan. 2006 0:00 am Rome time).
> > > >
> > > > According to the current laws of Nova Roma, Honorable Julilla
> > > > Sempronia Magna for aedilitas, and Hon. Gaius Vipsanius
Agrippa,
> > > > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, Cnaeus Salix Astur, Marcus
Arminius
> > > > Maior, Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus and Marcus
Bianchius
> > > > Antonius, for the tribunate, are the sole candidates legally
> > > > authorised to enter the next comitia plebis tributa which is
> > going to
> > > > be convened on the annual elections for 2759 auc of the
plebeian
> > > > magistracies.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck to all these candidates and, good vote for you all,
> > > > Plebeians. Pales, Ceres and Minerva be with you all !
> > > >
> > > > Valete omnes.
> > > >
> > > > On behalf of Marcus Bianchius Antonius, Domitius
Constantinus
> > Fuscus,
> > > > Caius Curius Saturninus, Marca Hortensia Maior, and myself,
> > Tribuni
> > > > plebis,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > P. Memmius Albucius
> > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40531 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Quinta,

Good to hear from you, well spoken. Your analogy to the Hippocratic
Oath is very good.

I think Nova Roma has always made it clear that it welcomed all
people. Its founding was that of people from the religio and all
they ask is for all non-practitoners to respect the religio, realize
its importance, contribution and cornerstone to Rome and Nova Roma
and keep your own personal beliefs, personal.

I took the oath of office here three times and never had a problem.
You are asked to protect the religio and the constitution which, in
my opinion is like taking an oath in a macronation which requires
you to protect many types of cultures, religion and beliefs even if
you are a practitioner of the mainstream religions. It is just that
here, the religio is the mainstream religion.

Hopefully many people coming to NR will have a pssion for Nova Roma,
Republican Rome and contribute all the can. We look forward to your
future posts and don't hesitate to ask any questions; afterall many
of us here think that the only foolish questions are the ones that
are not asked!

Vale bene,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jrosemary@c... wrote:
>
> salvete!
> I've only recently applied for citizenship (under the name Quinta
Octavia Mus) but since then I've been following this discussion with
interest. The Religio Romana is what drew me here, so I've enjoyed
seeing various opinions on what role it should play in Nova Roma.
But I'm beginning to feel `lurker's guilt,' so I thought I'd best
introduce myself and add my own viewpoint.
> I'll confess to being incurably syncretistic. I identify myself as
Pagan, but that identification doesn't stop me from reciting the
Pater Noster after performing rituals to the Household Gods—or from
attending Mass or synagogue. (As you might have guessed, my family's
religious background is delightfully mixed.)
> I understand the misgivings monotheists might have regarding the
oath of office. However, I think an interesting parallel can be
drawn from the Hippocratic Oath—many devout Jewish and Christian
doctors have sworn by Apollo and Asclepius. And demanding an elected
official to `honor' the Religio seems to me far different from
demanding belief or practice.
> That said, I'm not sure I understand why a monotheist would be
reluctant to join. As far as I can tell, the web site makes it plain
that people of all faiths and practices are welcome.
> At any event, I'm glad to see so much discussion on these issues
and I look forward to getting to know everyone better.
> valete,
> Quinta
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Diana Octavia Aventina <dianaaventina@y...>
> Salve Philippus,
>
> You've made quite a few good points.
>
> <Nothing would change in our organization
> > except the substitution of one small phrase and the
> > difference in recruitment rates could indeed be
> > staggering because of it. Simply replace the
> > negative connotations among non-pagans with a
> > positive one -
>
> I'm sure that you are correct that there are lots of
> non-pagans who are offended by that phrase and then
> click to the next website...
>
> Let's say we change the website to suit those people's
> tastes. Don't you think that they'd flip when they
> find out that there are pagans here amongst them? I
> think that the backlash of misrepresenting our
> citizenship would be worse. We could be accused of
> really being a 'cult' (the crazy kool-aid type).
>
> > Now someone said here that they would prefer quality
> > versus quantity, who wouldn't?
>
> That would be my Paterfamilias Marcus Octavius. I have
> to agree with him. Since our citizenship consists of
> various nationalities, races, cultures and religions,
> we shouldn't start changing things around in order to
> attract the intolerant.
>
> > Thank you all, now let get off the rostra :-)
> Not necessary, the two of us are nice and cozy up here
> :-)
>
> Vale!
> Diana
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40532 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
C. Equitius Cato P. Memmio Albucio C. Minucio Scaevolae quiritibusque
S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

<cough> If I could throw in a word here.

Scaevole, you are absolutely correct: the consul did in fact announce
that he would be putting up the names of candidates on a web page; the
consul was indeed subsequently unable to keep it up-to-date due to a
medical condition; and you did indeed voluntarily work to keep that
page accurate. You did so of your own free will and you should be
commended for it. In fact, I'm commending you right now, so consider
yourself commended :-)


Now, I'm pretty sure that the consul had no intent to usurp plebeian
magisterial authority in creating that web page, nor did Scaevole in
his efforts to keep it accurate.

Each section of the electoral process has its procedures. The consul
has the authority to call some in the comitia populi tributa, and the
tribunes others in the comitia plebis tributa. The rights of the
respective comitia cannot be infringed upon.

The consul set the proedure by which candidacies were sent to him to
be considered official, and Albucius, on behalf of the tribunes, did
likewise. There were a couple of bloopers, but in general, it seems
to me as if the intent of those respective calls was honored.

It may be, Albucius, that Marca Hortensia did not fulfill one of those
procedural steps; if so, you are certainly within the proscriptions of
the law to disallow her candidacy. You would be tecnically correct.
However, I would ask you to consider if your adherence to that
particular item is absolutely necessary or even actually beneficial to
the Republic.

Everyone who has suffered through one of my rants about the importance
of the law knows without a doubt how seriously I view our legal
foundation; everyone who has listened to me drone on and on in any one
of the pre-legal wranglings in which I have been involved knows that I
consider it the paramount indication of civilization that we create
and obey intelligent and coherent laws in order to reap the benefits
of a civilized society. So I do not make this observation lightly.

I am a patrician, and therefore really have no right to try to
persuade you in regards to the affairs of the plebeians. I am also a
citizen, however, and think it justifiable to try to explain why I
think it might be best for the People (myself included) as a whole.

Valete bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40533 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Endorsements for the CPT
Salvete Quirites,

The contio is now in progress, and I have recommendations for you in the
upcoming election to take place in the Comitia Populi Tributa.

Candidates I know well and endorse are:

For Curule Aedile:

Gaius Equitius Cato

Anyone who follows this list knows Cato. He posts his daily calendar
posts, studies the law, and does what he can to help people who are
trying to figure out Nova Roma. I'm convinced he's going to do an
excellent job as Aedilis Curalis.

For Quaestor:

Marcus Iulius Perusianus

Perusianus has been a very good Praetor this year, and is certainly
qualified to be Quaestor. I hope some day to see him consul.

Aulus Apollonius Cordus

Cordus is one of our most promising (and verbose) citizens. Possessed
of a first rate mind, he has a great future ahead of him in Nova Roma.
He will be an excellent Quaestor, and I expect to see him complete the
entire Cursus Honorum.

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

A good man who has given much to our Republic. Gnaeus Iulius has
contributed significantly in his province, in the Sodalitas Egressus,
and in the Sodalitas Militarium. I'm satisfied he'll be an exemplary
Quaestor.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus

Lentulus is not quite so outspoken as Cordus, but in his own way I think
he is as brilliant. He will be a superb Quaestor, and I hope to see him
in higher office someday.

For Rotator:

Aula Tullia Scholastica

Aula Tullia has put in countless hours working for me in the Censorial
Cohort. Her command of Latin is outstanding, and her knowledge of
ancient Roman naming practices is superb. Additionally, she has a close
working relationship with the current Rogatores, and a realistic
appreciation of the job she's undertaking.

Marcus Iulius Severus

Severus came to my censorial cohort at Scholastica's recommendation. He
has proven to be a pearl without price. Tireless and dutiful, he brings
his command of the Spanish and English languages to bear every day. He
also knows the duties of the Rogatores from first hand observation, and
understands exactly what he's going to be doing as Rogator.

Diribitor:

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis

A man of great dedication to our Republic and unquestionable judgement.
Minervalis will be a fair and just diribitor.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar

Our senior consul this year, Caesar is a man who I would trust to do any
job in Nova Roma well. Indeed, he has done almost all of them. Caesar
will be a good diribitor next year.

Custos:

Emilia Curia Finnica

Emilia Curia has given Nova Roma long quiet service. She is not often
seen here in the main list, but her contributions in her home province,
in the Senate, and in the Academia Thules are unmistakable. She will be
a fine election judge.

I ask you to vote for all of these people.

Valete quirites,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40534 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Sejano Marcello salutem dicit

The constitution of Nova Roma states, "The primary function of Nova Roma
shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization,
defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to
the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and
encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature,
language, and philosophy."

However, this being said the Religio Romana within Nova Roma focuses
primarily within times of the Republic. Therefore, you will not see flamen
dedicated to the Imperial Cult.

Vale;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/9/05, legio_vi_tribunis <legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> I must say, all of you have taoght me so much in regards to the
> religio. It showed how uneducated I was in that area and forced me to
> do reading to get on the same page. But one question came to mind.
> As I read more into the religion and time frames of religion, it
> dawned on me that I did not quite know what time frame Nova Roma
> portrays. IF NR portrays as if it never fell, then in roughly 325
> christianity became the state religion( if this is the case then when
> was christianity overthrown with the old gods reinstated), if NR
> portrays a different timeframe, then I need to know, to continue my
> education so I may actively involve myself more.
>
> Vale
> Marcus Sejanus Marcellus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40535 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Salve Marce Sejane,

legio_vi_tribunis wrote:

> As I read more into the religion and time frames of religion, it
> dawned on me that I did not quite know what time frame Nova Roma
> portrays.

Nova Roma is not a reenactment society, so we don't portray any specific
time other than the 28th century since the founding of Rome. However,
our Republic is a resurgence of the ancient Republic, and thus you might
reasonably say that we observe the Religio as it was observed toward the
end of the Republic. In particular, we have no Imperial Cult.

Vale,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40536 From: Maior Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Avete Quirites;
I was surprised too to see my name omitted until I double checked
the CPT list. I sent my declaration to the Tribunes and the ML,
November 25th and unbelievably forgot the Comitia Plebis Tributa. I am
heartily sorry and embarassed!
We will hold elections for these empty magistracies and I
will run then, Again my deepest apologies. But there will indeed be
one Plebian Aedile, I do ask my fellow cives to please also run with
me and render service to the gods and our Res Publica!
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior TRP




> > The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second
> period,
> > > the names of the registered declarations made by every candidate
> in
> > > the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open
> magistracies,
> > > and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in
> the
> > > next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759
> auc.
> > >
> > >
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40537 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.

I have no desire to meddle in Plebian matters, but I am moved to speak
about a person.

Our website carries this list of "personal virtues": Auctoritas,
Comitas, Clementia, Dignitas, Firmitas, Frugalitas, Gravitas,
Honestas, Humanitas, Industria, Pietas, Prudentia, Salubritas,
Severitas, Veritas.

Is there no virtue that is not displayed in the message of Marca
Hortensia Maior? I pray to the Gods that I may always follow her example.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
>
> Avete Quirites;
> I was surprised too to see my name omitted until I double checked
> the CPT list. I sent my declaration to the Tribunes and the ML,
> November 25th and unbelievably forgot the Comitia Plebis Tributa. I am
> heartily sorry and embarassed!
> We will hold elections for these empty magistracies and I
> will run then, Again my deepest apologies. But there will indeed be
> one Plebian Aedile, I do ask my fellow cives to please also run with
> me and render service to the gods and our Res Publica!
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior TRP
>
>
>
>
> > > The present edict aims thus to state the end of this second
> > period,
> > > > the names of the registered declarations made by every candidate
> > in
> > > > the comitia plebis tributa list for each of the open
> > magistracies,
> > > > and to state the names of the candidates officially admitted in
> > the
> > > > next comitia that will elect the plebeian magistrates for 2759
> > auc.
> > > >
> > > >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40538 From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
You mentioned no flamen of the Imperial Cult as this was not part of the Republic. What about sacerdotes? Is there a policy against its revival? Or has no-one applied to join this priesthood?

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa

David Kling <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Sejano Marcello salutem dicit

The constitution of Nova Roma states, "The primary function of Nova Roma
shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization,
defined as the period from the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to
the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and
encompassing such fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature,
language, and philosophy."

However, this being said the Religio Romana within Nova Roma focuses
primarily within times of the Republic. Therefore, you will not see flamen
dedicated to the Imperial Cult.

Vale;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/9/05, legio_vi_tribunis <legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> I must say, all of you have taoght me so much in regards to the
> religio. It showed how uneducated I was in that area and forced me to
> do reading to get on the same page. But one question came to mind.
> As I read more into the religion and time frames of religion, it
> dawned on me that I did not quite know what time frame Nova Roma
> portrays. IF NR portrays as if it never fell, then in roughly 325
> christianity became the state religion( if this is the case then when
> was christianity overthrown with the old gods reinstated), if NR
> portrays a different timeframe, then I need to know, to continue my
> education so I may actively involve myself more.
>
> Vale
> Marcus Sejanus Marcellus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40539 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Populi Tributa is called
Salvete, quirites.

I thought I would share my thoughts and opinions on the candidates in
both elections as well as the proposed laws. These are just that,
thoughts and opinions, so do not feel in any way obligated to follow my
advise.

Regarding the elections, most magistracies have a number of candidates
equal to the number of open positions, so in those I will merely remind
you that there is some merit to avoiding unnecessary repetitions. Vote
for any candidate you aren't firmly opposed to. Don't leave the republic
without administration.

To all the candidates, thank you for standing for office, for offering
yourself up to the republic.

FAC wrote:
> ROGATOR (2 openings)
>
> Aula Tullia Scholastica
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=6596
>
> Gaius Marius Aquilius
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7766
>
> Marcus Iulius Severus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=8632

Three worthy candidates, whom I am hard-pressed to choose between. In
particular, I want to mention Aula Tullia Scholastica, one of our more
outstanding citizens. A latinist with a service record worthy of any
magistrate. My other vote will go to Marcus Iulius Severus, who has
worked tirelessly for Censor Marinus.

FAC wrote:
> MAGISTER ARANEARIUS (webmaster, 1 opening)
>
> Quintus Valerius Callidus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=6903
>
> Decimus Claudius Aquilius
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7705

I thank both candidates for being willing to put in endless hours for
the republic. I know neither of them, however, as a former Magister
Aranearius, I will support Quintus Valerius Callidus, as his declaration
describes skills I believe is necessary for the position.

FAC wrote:
> LEX APULA DE TRIBUTIS

I support this proposal, as it includes provisions I feel useful for the
taxation process.

FAC wrote:
> LEX APULA DE ABDICATIONE MAGISTRATUUM

I support this proposal, as it provides punishment enough for those who
acted in haste, without depriving the republic of her elected magistrates.

FAC wrote:
> LEX POPILLIA DE MAGISTRATU EIURANDO

I oppose this proposal as it is too harsh in dealing with those willing
to sacrifice of their time for the republic and causes unnecessary
bureaucracy as it leaves the republic without a magistrate while a new
election is called.

FAC wrote:
> LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE

As a candidate for Praetor, I support this law. Though I would like to
see some modifications, it lays a fine foundation upon which to base
list moderation policies.

FAC wrote:
> LEX FABIA DE NOMINIBUS APPROBATIONIBUSQUE

I support this proposal as it will move Nova Roma nomenclature closer to
that of Roma Antiqua. As it will not hinder Nova Roma in the modern
world, I am for it.

FAC wrote:
> LEX POPILLIA SENATORIA

I support this law as a move towards historicity and am glad to support
the inclusion of the Flamen Dialis into the senate.

Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40540 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
Salve, Pompeia Minucia Tiberia Strabo Amica; salvete, omnes.

On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 11:24:32PM -0000, pompeia_minucia_tiberia wrote:
>
> To end, somewhat digressively, when candidates are added to that
> webpage they are interpreted by the populace as officially
> recognized candidates. For this reason, if there is by chance an
> error,to wit: spelling, wrong name of candidate under wrong
> magistracy, invalid candidacy....those items of misinformation are
> not usually allowed to linger there for days, and its naturally up
> to the magistrates convening the election to check this list
> regularily for errors or omissions, through collaboration with the
> web magister.

Just as an item of general information, amica - you've hit upon one of
the reasons that I felt it worthwhile to spend the time on redesigning
this entire procedure. The way candidates are added now eliminates the
possibility of misspellings and incorrect links to the candidates'
pages, at least; these are now retrieved from the citizen database by
the candidate's ID number, and are not subject to being messed up by
retyping (a wrong ID number would produce a completely different name
instead of a one-letter-off mistake.) There are a number of other
improvements as well, but those should make life easier for whoever has
to do this in the future.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
Anybody can err, but only the fool persists in his fault.
-- Cicero, "Philippicae orationes". Often quoted "errare humanum est,
ignoscere divinum" - to err is human, to forgive divine.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40541 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: The Comitia Centuriata is called
Salvete, quirites.

In a similar vein to my post in regards to the Comitia Populi Tributa, I
offer you my thoughts in the Comitia Centuriata, to consider or
disregard as you see fit.

Again, I wish to thank all candidates for showing their willingness to
work on behalf of the republic. I am glad that there is but one office
with less candidates than openings, and that one citizen has already
declared an intention to fill that opening when the opportunity arises.

FAC wrote:
> CENSOR (1 opening)
>
> Quintus Fabius Maximus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=10
>
> Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1222

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix is an obvious choice for this position,
with his long and varied service record. As a Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
he is sure to bring measured thought and reason to this very important
office.

FAC wrote:
> CONSUL (2 openings)
>
> Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=289
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4006

To quote a saying, "when there is only one candidate, there is only one
choice"...but quirites, we have not one, but two outstanding candidates,
for one of the most, if not the most, important office in the republic.
We are fortunate that two so outstanding citizens have stepped up to
shoulder this burden.

FAC wrote:
> PRAETOR (2 openings)
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1337
>
> Gaius Geminius Germanus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1777
>
> Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1982
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> http://novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=3443

Well, my primary choice should be quite obvious. Caius Curius Saturninus
has brought something truly great to us all through his tireless
efforts with the Academia, not to mention all his other work for Nova
Roma, most recently as Propraetor and Tribune.

As my second choice I will vote for myself. I am confident that I will
act in the best interests of the res publica and that I will be able to
deal with the duties of this vital office.

FAC wrote:
> COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #1

This brings the constitution in line with the thoughts discussed in the
last year regarding resignations. A necessary step.

FAC wrote:
> COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #2

Again moving vital definitions out from the constitution into law.
Necessary and long overdue.

FAC wrote:
> LEX APULA DE MAGISTRO ARANEARIO

The office of Magister Aranearius is a vital one to the republic in many
ways, and one requiring a larger skillset than can easily be understood.
Moving the office from being an elected to an appointed one is a sound
decision which I wholly support and endorse.

FAC wrote:
> LEX APULA DE ASSIDUIS ET CAPITE CENSIS

I support this law, bringing the status of assidui and capiti censi up
to date with current legislation.

Valete, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40542 From: Benjamin A. Okopnik Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - web election page
Salve, G. Equitius Cato amice -

On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 11:55:36PM -0000, Gaius Equitius Cato wrote:
>
> <cough> If I could throw in a word here.

No, no, wait! How can we keep on wrangling if you *interrupt*? Do you
even _realize_ what it takes for me to get up a good head of steam???

> Scaevole, you are absolutely correct: the consul did in fact announce
> that he would be putting up the names of candidates on a web page; the
> consul was indeed subsequently unable to keep it up-to-date due to a
> medical condition; and you did indeed voluntarily work to keep that
> page accurate. You did so of your own free will and you should be
> commended for it. In fact, I'm commending you right now, so consider
> yourself commended :-)

Amice, are you a Mason too? You can certainly lay it on with a trowel.
:) Really, I was not trying to blow my own horn here - just trying to
make it clear that post-facto redefinitions of "official" aren't
something to be lightly tossed around.

> Now, I'm pretty sure that the consul had no intent to usurp plebeian
> magisterial authority in creating that web page, nor did Scaevole in
> his efforts to keep it accurate.

Just to follow that up: nope, didn't have even the slightest intent of
that. Just doing my job with the most accurate information I had, that's
all.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Claris maiorum exemplis.
After the forefathers' brilliant example.
-- Part of the inscription on the House of Nobility, Riddarhuset, in Stockholm.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40543 From: lucius_fidelius Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: Why people quit NR
Salve Quinta.

Welcome to Nova Roma, you have made a rewarding choice for pursuing
Roman history and especially religion.

As per the oath, when the wording is considered, it is more than a
simple honoring- it is the acceptance and explicit apprehension of
the existence of the Roman polytheistic pantheon. For many
monotheists, this is beyond the scope of their religious beliefs and
considering that traditionally the Roman Religio was promulgated by
means of oaths, it is understandable why a monotheist would not
pursue the NR oath. This is of course one opinion and while it
shared by many, it is no prevailing rule as many non-practitioners of
the Religio yet take this oath.

Vale,

L. Fidelius Graecus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jrosemary@c... wrote:
>
> salvete!
> I've only recently applied for citizenship (under the name Quinta
Octavia Mus) but since then I've been following this discussion with
interest. The Religio Romana is what drew me here, so I've enjoyed
seeing various opinions on what role it should play in Nova Roma. But
I'm beginning to feel `lurker's guilt,' so I thought I'd best
introduce myself and add my own viewpoint.
> I'll confess to being incurably syncretistic. I identify myself as
Pagan, but that identification doesn't stop me from reciting the
Pater Noster after performing rituals to the Household Gods—or from
attending Mass or synagogue. (As you might have guessed, my family's
religious background is delightfully mixed.)
> I understand the misgivings monotheists might have regarding the
oath of office. However, I think an interesting parallel can be drawn
from the Hippocratic Oath—many devout Jewish and Christian doctors
have sworn by Apollo and Asclepius. And demanding an elected official
to `honor' the Religio seems to me far different from demanding
belief or practice.
> That said, I'm not sure I understand why a monotheist would be
reluctant to join. As far as I can tell, the web site makes it plain
that people of all faiths and practices are welcome.
> At any event, I'm glad to see so much discussion on these issues
and I look forward to getting to know everyone better.
> valete,
> Quinta
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40544 From: Maior Date: 2005-12-09
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
M. Hortensia Senatricae Strabonis M.Lucretio Agricolaeque spd;
I looked at my files & found I double-posted to the tribunes, in
error when I should have sent one to the CPT, it is no one's fault but
my own. And I am responsible for checking the CPT list.

I appreciate the support and kind words of my friends Cordus, G. Buteo
Modianus, Scaevola, Senatrix Strabo and Agricola's words are simply
eloquent but undeserved.
I apologize to the webmaster and the Quirites for having him reopen
the cista and fill this post. I promise to be more diligent in the
future.
bene valete in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior
>
M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I have no desire to meddle in Plebian matters, but I am moved to
speak
> about a person.
>
> Our website carries this list of "personal virtues": Auctoritas,
> Comitas, Clementia, Dignitas, Firmitas, Frugalitas, Gravitas,
> Honestas, Humanitas, Industria, Pietas, Prudentia, Salubritas,
> Severitas, Veritas.
>
> Is there no virtue that is not displayed in the message of Marca
> Hortensia Maior? I pray to the Gods that I may always follow her
example.
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40545 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: (OT)SETI@home
Salve,

Is anybody from NR Seti@home team still active? If so, could someone
send me the url for it. I left the team a good while back and want to
get active again.

Vale,

Quintus Servilius Priscus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40546 From: Julilla Sempronia Magna Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS - PLEBS - 2nd period closed - OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES (c
May I respectfuly beg the tribuni to allow the candidacy of Marca Hortensia Maior to stand for aedilis Plebis? It would be a shame indeed to disallow such a worthy candidate on a technicality. I hope the tribunes will see the worth of her candidacy and not demand a special election.

Please, let her declaration stand, for her intent certainly was clear!

--
Julilla Sempronia Magna
civa NovaRoman
candidata, Aedilis Plebis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40547 From: Tim Gallagher Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Question about the LEX APULA DE TRIBUTIS
Salve Consul Franciscus Apulus Caesar

As you know under current procedure the Consular Quaestor updates the information on the Album Civium which automatically changes a citizen from Capiti Censi to Assidui and sends a receipt to the new Assidui citizen.

Do these proposed changes listed below change this procedure?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


The LEX APULA DE TRIBUTIS

ii. The Consular Quaestors shall issue receipts to individual cives
as taxes are collected, as an instrument of proof of payment thereof.

iii. The Consular Quaestors shall provide a report to the Censores
detailing which cives have paid their taxes and thus should be
listed as assidui.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40548 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Endorsements for the CPT
> A. Tullia Scholastica Censori Gn. Equitio Marino quiritibus omnibus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> The contio is now in progress, and I have recommendations for you in the
> upcoming election to take place in the Comitia Populi Tributa.
>
> Candidates I know well and endorse are:
>
> For Curule Aedile:
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
> Anyone who follows this list knows Cato. He posts his daily calendar
> posts, studies the law, and does what he can to help people who are
> trying to figure out Nova Roma. I'm convinced he's going to do an
> excellent job as Aedilis Curalis.
>
> For Quaestor:
>
> Marcus Iulius Perusianus
>
> Perusianus has been a very good Praetor this year, and is certainly
> qualified to be Quaestor. I hope some day to see him consul.
>
> Aulus Apollonius Cordus
>
> Cordus is one of our most promising (and verbose) citizens. Possessed
> of a first rate mind, he has a great future ahead of him in Nova Roma.
> He will be an excellent Quaestor, and I expect to see him complete the
> entire Cursus Honorum.
>
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
>
> A good man who has given much to our Republic. Gnaeus Iulius has
> contributed significantly in his province, in the Sodalitas Egressus,
> and in the Sodalitas Militarium. I'm satisfied he'll be an exemplary
> Quaestor.
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
>
> Lentulus is not quite so outspoken as Cordus, but in his own way I think
> he is as brilliant. He will be a superb Quaestor, and I hope to see him
> in higher office someday.
>
> ATS: Lentulus is a fine person, and a very fine Latinist who is
> thoroughly devoted to ancient Rome, and very knowledgeable about her and all
> her ways.
>
> For Rogator:
>
> Aula Tullia Scholastica
>
> Aula Tullia has put in countless hours working for me in the Censorial
> Cohort. Her command of Latin is outstanding, and her knowledge of
> ancient Roman naming practices is superb. Additionally, she has a close
> working relationship with the current Rogatores, and a realistic
> appreciation of the job she's undertaking.
>
> ATS: Thank you very much for your kind words, Censor Marine, and for your
> endorsement. All of us in the censor¹s office work hard as we guide the
> prospective citizens through the application process as they choose a proper
> Roman name and complete the probationary period, culminating in the successful
> completion of the citizenship examination.
>
> Marcus Iulius Severus
>
> Severus came to my censorial cohort at Scholastica's recommendation. He
> has proven to be a pearl without price. Tireless and dutiful, he brings
> his command of the Spanish and English languages to bear every day. He
> also knows the duties of the Rogatores from first hand observation, and
> understands exactly what he's going to be doing as Rogator.
>
> ATS: My colleague Severus has almost singlehandedly revived the Collegium
> Eratous of the Sodalitas Musarum, and is a bundle of energy in that and many
> other pursuits. He is a native speaker of Spanish, but quite fluent in
> English; as such, he is very helpful to us in the censor¹s office in working
> with the many Spanish-speaking applicants, working in conjunction with
> Propraetor Complutensis.
>
> Please note that none of the above statements is a political endorsement;
> they are minimal introductions. The other candidates are better known, and
> are less likely to need introductions.
>
> Diribitor:
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
>
> A man of great dedication to our Republic and unquestionable judgement.
> Minervalis will be a fair and just diribitor.
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
>
> Our senior consul this year, Caesar is a man who I would trust to do any
> job in Nova Roma well. Indeed, he has done almost all of them. Caesar
> will be a good diribitor next year.
>
> Custos:
>
> Emilia Curia Finnica
>
> Emilia Curia has given Nova Roma long quiet service. She is not often
> seen here in the main list, but her contributions in her home province,
> in the Senate, and in the Academia Thules are unmistakable. She will be
> a fine election judge.
>
> I ask you to vote for all of these people.
>
> ATS: Plurimas gratias.
>
> Valete quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
>
> Vale, et ualete, Quirites.
>
> 1. Tullia Scholastica
> 2.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40549 From: Timothy P. Gallagher Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Salve Romans

Both as a citizen and as a candidate for Praetor I strongly oppose
this proposal to adopt the main list guidelines as a Lex .

This is one Lex that we surely do not need.

The moderation of the Nova Roma Forum ( Main List ) has been for a
long time the purview of the Praetors and they have proven up to the
task of writing new guidelines or rewriting or amending the
guidelines of their predecessors. There is no need to adopt a Lex
to do what a Praetorian Edict has been able to do in the past.

Current law states that

"The Praetors are empowered to create and enforce policies of
acceptable behavior in the public fora. Which indeed they do and
have the imperium to back it up.

The current guidelines state that "as Praetors of Nova Roma, we
reserve the right to change them at any time." If the Forum
guidelines are adopted as a Lex you remove the flexibility that all
Praetors of the past have enjoyed.

The current Forum guidelines also states

"Topics of Discussion. The main focus of this list is Nova Roma and
Roma Antiqua. However, as members of a diverse international
community we all have lives and interests outside of Nova Roma. It
is perfectly acceptable to discuss non-Roman topics here, though
keep in mind that not everyone may share your interest in these
topics."

We need to keep this in mind and allow our Praetors to do their job
and not handcuff them with this unnecessary Lex.

Please vote NO on the LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Candidate for Praetor
Fortuna Favet Fortibus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40550 From: M•IVL•SEVERVS Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: ENDORSEMENTS FOR THE CPT
Marcus Iulius Severus A. Tulliae Scholasticae Censori Gn. Equitio Marino
quiritibus omnibus S.P.D.

Salvete Quirites,

I want to add my support to the endorsements for the Comitia Populi
Tributa, as formulated by Censor Gn. Equitius Marinus and Aula Tullia
Scholastica. I also want to make public my gratitude for their kind words
and confidence towards my person. I'll do my best not to disappoint them
or any of the Quirites who may choose to vote for me as Rogator.


> A. Tullia Scholastica Censori Gn. Equitio Marino quiritibus omnibus
S.P.D.
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> The contio is now in progress, and I have recommendations for you
in the
> upcoming election to take place in the Comitia Populi Tributa.
>
> Candidates I know well and endorse are:
>
> For Curule Aedile:
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
>
> Anyone who follows this list knows Cato. He posts his daily
calendar
> posts, studies the law, and does what he can to help people who are
> trying to figure out Nova Roma. I'm convinced he's going to do an
> excellent job as Aedilis Curalis.
>
> For Quaestor:
>
> Marcus Iulius Perusianus
>
> Perusianus has been a very good Praetor this year, and is certainly
> qualified to be Quaestor. I hope some day to see him consul.
>
> Aulus Apollonius Cordus
>
> Cordus is one of our most promising (and verbose) citizens.
Possessed
> of a first rate mind, he has a great future ahead of him in Nova
Roma.
> He will be an excellent Quaestor, and I expect to see him complete
the
> entire Cursus Honorum.
>
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar
>
> A good man who has given much to our Republic. Gnaeus Iulius has
> contributed significantly in his province, in the Sodalitas
Egressus,
> and in the Sodalitas Militarium. I'm satisfied he'll be an
exemplary
> Quaestor.
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
>
> Lentulus is not quite so outspoken as Cordus, but in his own way I
think
> he is as brilliant. He will be a superb Quaestor, and I hope to
see him
> in higher office someday.
>
> ATS: Lentulus is a fine person, and a very fine Latinist who
is
> thoroughly devoted to ancient Rome, and very knowledgeable about
her and all
> her ways.
>
> For Rogator:
>
> Aula Tullia Scholastica
>
> Aula Tullia has put in countless hours working for me in the
Censorial
> Cohort. Her command of Latin is outstanding, and her knowledge of
> ancient Roman naming practices is superb. Additionally, she has a
close
> working relationship with the current Rogatores, and a realistic
> appreciation of the job she's undertaking.
>
> ATS: Thank you very much for your kind words, Censor Marine,
and for your
> endorsement. All of us in the censor¹s office work hard as we
guide the
> prospective citizens through the application process as they choose
a proper
> Roman name and complete the probationary period, culminating in the
successful
> completion of the citizenship examination.
>
> Marcus Iulius Severus
>
> Severus came to my censorial cohort at Scholastica's
recommendation. He
> has proven to be a pearl without price. Tireless and dutiful, he
brings
> his command of the Spanish and English languages to bear every
day. He
> also knows the duties of the Rogatores from first hand observation,
and
> understands exactly what he's going to be doing as Rogator.
>
> ATS: My colleague Severus has almost singlehandedly revived
the Collegium
> Eratous of the Sodalitas Musarum, and is a bundle of energy in that
and many
> other pursuits. He is a native speaker of Spanish, but quite
fluent in
> English; as such, he is very helpful to us in the censor¹s office
in working
> with the many Spanish-speaking applicants, working in conjunction
with
> Propraetor Complutensis.
>
> Please note that none of the above statements is a political
endorsement;
> they are minimal introductions. The other candidates are better
known, and
> are less likely to need introductions.
>
> Diribitor:
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis
>
> A man of great dedication to our Republic and unquestionable
judgement.
> Minervalis will be a fair and just diribitor.
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
>
> Our senior consul this year, Caesar is a man who I would trust to
do any
> job in Nova Roma well. Indeed, he has done almost all of them.
Caesar
> will be a good diribitor next year.
>
> Custos:
>
> Emilia Curia Finnica
>
> Emilia Curia has given Nova Roma long quiet service. She is not
often
> seen here in the main list, but her contributions in her home
province,
> in the Senate, and in the Academia Thules are unmistakable. She
will be
> a fine election judge.
>
> I ask you to vote for all of these people.
>
> ATS: Plurimas gratias.
>
> Valete quirites,
>
> -- Marinus
>
> Vale, et ualete, Quirites.
>
> 1. Tullia Scholastica
> 2.

Vale et valete, Quirites,

M•IVL•SEVERVS
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•GEM
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM
PROVINCIA•MEXICO•NOVƕROMƕSPQR

--
_______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.

Powered by Outblaze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40551 From: Lucius Rutilius Minervalis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Endorsements for the CPT
Salvete Omnes,

I would like to thank Censor Marinus for his kind words and to say
that I believe that its recommendations are the expression of wisdom.
Indeed, I work in his cohors with several of the names he endorses
(Scolastica, Severus, Cordus) and I could note how much are qualified
and devoted to NR these citizens, doing a considerable and
high-quality work: without the inevaluable help of these experts, my
task of Scriba Censoris will be extremely difficult and I'm sure they
will show the same qualities in other offices, to benefit NR.

Valete,

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis,
Aedilician Quaestor
Scriba Censoris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40552 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: a.d. IV Id. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IV Idus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"Pontius replied: "I shall not accept this surrender of yours nor will
the Samnites regard it as valid. Why do you not, Spurius Postumius, if
you believe in the existence of gods, either cancel the whole
agreement or abide by what you have pledged yourself to. The Samnite
people have a right to all those whom it held in its power, or in
their stead it has a right to make peace with Rome. But why do I
appeal to you? You are keeping your word as far as you can and
rendering yourself as prisoner to your conqueror. I appeal to the
Roman people. If they are dissatisfied with the convention of the
Caudine Forks, let them place their legions once more between the
passes which imprisoned them. Let there be no fraudulent dealing on
either side, let the whole transaction be annulled, let them resume
the arms which they delivered up at the capitulation, let them return
to that camp of theirs, let them have everything that they had on the
eve of their surrender. When that is done, then let them take a bold
line and vote for war, then let the convention and the peace agreed to
be repudiated. Let us carry on the war with the same fortune and on
the same ground which we held before any mention was made of peace;
the Roman people will not then have any occasion to blame their
consuls for pledges they had no right to give, nor shall we have any
reason to charge the Roman people with any breach of faith.

"Will you never be at a loss for reasons why, after defeat, you should
not abide by your agreements? You gave hostages to Porsena, afterwards
you stole them away. You ransomed your city from the Gauls with gold,
whilst they were in the act of receiving the gold they were cut down.
You made peace with us on condition of our restoring your captured
legions, you are now making that peace null and void. You always cloak
your dishonest dealing under some specious pretext of right and
justice. Does the Roman people not approve of its legions being saved
at the cost of a humiliating peace? Then let it keep its peace to
itself, only let it restore to the victor its captured legions. Such
action would be in accord with the dictates of honour, with the faith
of treaties, with the solemn proceedings of the fetials. But that you
should secure what you stipulated for, the safety of thousands of your
countrymen, whilst I am not to secure the peace which I stipulated for
when I released them-is this what you Aulus Cornelius and you fetials
call acting according to the law of nations? "As to those men whom you
make believe to surrender I neither accept them nor do I regard them
as surrendered, nor do I hinder them from returning to their
countrymen, who are bound by a convention, the violation of which
brings down the wrath of all the gods whose majesty is being trifled
with. True, Spurius Postumius has just struck the herald fetial with
his knee, then wage war! Of course the gods will believe that
Postumius is a Samnite citizen not a Roman, and that it is by a
Samnite citizen that a Roman herald has been maltreated, and that for
that reason you are justified in making war upon us. It is sad to
think that you feel no shame in exposing this mockery of religion to
the light of day, and that old men of consular rank should invent
excuses for breaking their word which even children would think
beneath them. Go, lictor, remove the bonds from the Romans, let none
of them be hindered from departing where they please." Thus set free
they returned to the Roman camp, their personal obligations and
possibly those of the State having been discharged." - Livy, History
of Rome 9.11


Today was the traditional beginning of the tribunician year; on this
day, the tribunes would have received their offices followed by a
feast to which all citizens were invited.


"One is always considered mad when one perfects something that others
cannot grasp." - Ed Wood, acclaimed as the worst movie director of all
time, who died on 10 December A.D. 1978


Valete bene!

Cato




SOURCES

Livy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40553 From: Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete omnes.

I respect the intentions of all those involved in crafting it, no
doubt the hours spent on preparing it, and I understand the need for
moderation on this list, but I utterly oppose this proposed lex.

Rarely have I seen in one lex so many examples of the type of
drafting that plagues Nova Roma. This lex uses imprecise language,
contains references to points that don't exist, enshrines
generalities that would open the door to constant arguments over its
scope, fails to provide definitions of prohibited actions, contains
spelling mistakes and most empowers the Praetors to curtail
constitutionally permitted freedom of speech, thus placing it in
conflict with the Constitution.

It is written in a style that is more conversational than legal.
This would be a nightmare to enforce and in any civil or criminal
trial that followed in a Nova Roman court that relied on this law in
any way and an equally horrendous quagmire for those citizens
unlucky enough to be selected to hear a case revolving around it.

This lex opens the door to abuse by a Praetor so minded, a morass of
legal debates, probablya few resignations along the way from
posters caught in the wide-ranging scope of this law, not to mention
well-intentioned Praetors who come into the line of fire over trying
to interpret this ghastly mess.

Allow me to demonstrate:

"B. Language Policies.
The forum in ancient Rome was a large venue, with many people of
different cultures and languages conversing. Official information
was in Latin, and in some cases Greek, but people were free to speak
informally in the language of their choice. Our constitution
mandates freedom of communication provided it is not dangerous or
disruptive"

GIC: Utterly redundant. This lex does not need a historical setting
for simply determining what language should be used.
---------------------------------------

"(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html) which
stipulates, though comitial mandate, that any official government
legislation or priestly decrees must be issued in Latin or English
where applicable, so they can be translated verbatim into other
languages to be more easily understood by the entirety of the
populace."

GIC: Redundant. Unless this lex replaces in part or wholly another
lex, there is no need ever to reference a law, let alone to provide
a rationale for what it does and why. This is an exceptionally
dangerous drafting practice since unwittingly one law can end up
contradicting another.
---------------------------------------

"II. MANDATORY BEHAVIOUR IN THE NOVA ROMA FORUM.

A. Relevance of the posts
It is not advisable to issue a message lacking benefit or relevance
to the rest of the Main List subscribers. A systematic use of such
replies is forbidden."

GIC: Letting a Praetor decide whether a message has benefit or
relevance invites deliberate or accidental censorship of free
speech, which is of course unconstitutional. This section then fails
to define what "systematic" is; how many occurrences? Two? Three?
Twenty-two, or a hundred and three? Not only does this again endow a
Praetor with too broad a power, it then also can cripple that
Praetor as a poster could claim that systematic requires a number
greater than the number of times he or she repeated themselves. This
would then result, no doubt, in a provocatio appeal, and we all know
where that would lead, or would not lead, to be more reflective of
some people's interpretation of that section of the constitution.
---------------------------------------

B. Inappropriate behaviours.
At all times maintain politeness in the expression of one's opinion
and endeavour to respect the rights and opinions of others.
(INCOMPLETE SENTENCE)

GIC: This section is grammatically awkward and doesn't identify who
it refers to explicitly. Yes, I know that it is meant to refer to a
poster, but when laws don't specify who they affect, that is
patently sloppy and open to interpretation.
--------------------------------------

"Inappropriate behaviour includes:

use of words, epithets or formulas that are properly(determined by
the Praetors or persons designated by them to moderate the list)
offensive or might be considered normally offensive making another
person look foolish;
name-calling criticising the sender in her/his character rather than
her/his
ideas;"

GIC: Who may consider such utterances offensive? This seeks to
implement the use of the legal fiction of the "reasonable man",
or, "man on the Clapham omnibus" test. It fails to include the
term "reasonable" or to provide even a comparative determinant as to
how this will be measured.

When is something "normally" offensive? Does this mean that on
certain days it is less offensive? Does it mean that if certain
people who have very thin skin complain or are Praetors, that their
normal takes precedence over the offending poster? This needs o be
defined or clarified.

"Name-calling" is too broad a definition. The more simplistic
occurrences will of course fit here, "You swine" etc. What about a
magistrate who has consistently demonstrated ineptitude and has
failed beyond a shadow of a doubt? A citizen who could be justified
in saying "You are an utterly useless and inept magistrate" now will
be prevented from calling such a magistrate to task, for surely this
is name-calling? Or is it? It willd epend on the Praetor and that
Praetor will then be locked into another dispute over whether it is
a factual description or an insult. Imprecsion leads to muddle and
muddle to hours spent rebutting legal challenges, when for the sake
of crafting a document properly this could be avoided. Again, this
section places too great a power into the hands of a Praetor, and
opens the door to another conflict with the Constitution.
--------------------------------------

"Further, in the interests of protecting our younger citizens, sexual
references, including those to nudity, must be strictly within the
context of an historical discussion. Otherwise, they are to be made
in private."

GIC: A better and less broad way of defining this would be to
include standard terminology that can be defined easily,
i.e. "lewd", "immoral", etc. The trouble is that again, as with any
censorship law, you will end up sweeping up comments that were never
intended to be offensive.
--------------------------------------

"In addition, for the same reason, references to heavy drinking,
extreme violence, and the like shall also be confined to a strictly
educational context, not presented as desirable behaviours"

GIC: What about drinking presented in the context of a joke, where
there is no suggestion that this is a desirable behaviour? I have
just circumvented this section.
--------------------------------------

"Extensive citation from other authors without permission"

GIC: Define an author? Is, for instance Cordus not an author, and as
it is often necessary to quote large sections of his postings to
address them, do I then have to obtain his permission?
--------------------------------------

"..or any citation from any sources without attribution"

GIC: This maybe good practice but to make it subject of a law, with
penalties attached is ridiculously prohibitive.
--------------------------------------

"C. Public or private posts.
Always contact first the individual concerned privately, explaining
the rationale for grievance and asking for clarification. In a
second instance contact the Praetores directly if not able to
resolve the issue privately."

GIC: Utterly unacceptable. The state has no business forcing people
to engage people that they don't like, or worse, in private
discussion. This section will deluge the Praetors and their staff
with petty fogging complaints, whines, moans, as well as real
complaints. The system will be placed under immense strain and the
Praetors will end up holding de-facto trials. How many candidates
for Praetor want to have to spend their nights and weekends playing
counsellor and therapist? This is unbelievably short-sighted.
--------------------------------------

"F. Sanctions
In the case of a poster whose actions violate the guidelines
mentioned in art.II in, the following course of escalation shall be
followed:"

GIC: What is artII in? Poor proof reading.
--------------------------------------

"..a second public memo describing the infraction, and a reminder to
review the guidelines, if sanction described at point 1 was already
applied in the last year.
placement of the poster on moderated status (posts are still allowed
but will be reviewed by the Praetors or their designate before being
transmitted to the list), if sanction described at point 2 was.."

GIC: I don't see any point 1 or 2 in this lex. This is a reference
that leads nowhere. Sloppy wording.
--------------------------------------

"No citizen shall be kept
in moderated status for more than two months without a firm sentence"

GIC: What on earth does this mean? What happens is the Praetor
thinks that the sentence wasn't firm enough or the law didn't allow
for a sentence as firm as he or she wanted? This section allows a
Praetor, so minded, to keep someone who has been tried on moderation
for as long as they want.
--------------------------------------

"F. Off-topics.
As stated, off-topic messages are admitted in the forum until the
Praetors declare the thread not admissible or no ore admissible."

GIC: What is "no ore"? Ore relates to minerals! If you mean "no
more", which I assume the author did, then the construct is still
awkward and needs to be cleaned up.
--------------------------------------

"The Praetores shall decide what, if any, sanctions to apply,
according to their own judgement. After coming to an agreement with
one another concerning the nature and level of any applicable
sanctions, the Praetores shall impose such penalties fairly on all
offenders, whatever their political, religious, or other leanings.

GIC: No, no no. This won't do at all. This allows a Praetor to take
a section of the lex that was headed "III. DISCRETIONARY BEHAVIOUR
IN THE FORUM" and apply an unlimited range of sanctions without even
the need for a trial and sentence (as the more serious sections
did). It is patently absurd that a minor section of the lex has more
punitive power against citizens that the more serious.

Nova Roma's state lists are subject to Section II.B.4 of the
constitution:

"The right to participate in all public fora and discussions, and
the right to reasonably expect such fora to be supported by the
State. Such communications, regardless of their content, may not be
restricted by the State, except where they represent an imminent and
clear danger to the Republic. Such officially sponsored fora may be
expected to be reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining
order and civility; "

This lex would impose standards that go far further than that
mandated by the constitution. The powers of this lex are punitive
and far too broad.

This lex is a disaster and should be withdrawn, immediately, and if
not voted down.

Valete
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy P. Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...> wrote:
>
> Salve Romans
>
> Both as a citizen and as a candidate for Praetor I strongly oppose
> this proposal to adopt the main list guidelines as a Lex .
>
> This is one Lex that we surely do not need.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40554 From: G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Small Saturnalia GGift
G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana omnes SPD

Well, Google has topped up my tank of invitations again,
and I have more than I know what to do with. If you'd
like a small Saturnalia ggift, read on.

I've used the system for six months now, and find it more
flexible than my other accounts, with multiple language
features (I run mine in French), and a wonderfully ad-free
environment. Google uses only targetted text ads--NO
image clutter. And it's free.

If anyone would like an invitation to Google's version of
e-mail (and invitations are how you get into this system),
just click on "send e-mail" on this message page, and
contact me.

FOR YOUR SUBJECT LINE, PLEASE USE THE FOLLOWING:

NR Gmail invite


Valete bene in pace Deorum.

G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40555 From: Diana Octavia Aventina Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL CANDIDACIES
Salve Tribune Maiora,

> I was surprised too to see my name omitted until I
> double checked
> the CPT list. I sent my declaration to the Tribunes
> and the ML,
> November 25th and unbelievably forgot the Comitia
> Plebis Tributa. I am
> heartily sorry and embarassed!

You have nothing to be embarrassed about. I find it a
pity that none of the other Tribunes reponsible for
organizing the elections didn't send you a quick note
to remind you to forward your candidacy declaration to
the CPT.

Vale,
Diana Octavia



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40556 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Salve:

Nova Roma does not entertain the idea of sanctioning an official Imperial
Cult. Any application to the Collegium Pontificum for a sacerdos or flamen
of the Imperial cult would be rejected. At least, this is my understanding.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Pontifex

On 12/9/05, Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <canadaoccidentalis@...> wrote:
>
> You mentioned no flamen of the Imperial Cult as this was not part of the
> Republic. What about sacerdotes? Is there a policy against its
> revival? Or has no-one applied to join this priesthood?
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40557 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
C. Equitius Cato G. Fabio Buteoni Modiano S.P.D.

Salve, pontiff.

Just a note: if an emperor --- or actually any member of the imperial
or proto-imperial families (I'm thinking of the Divus Iulius, for
example)--- was deified, then under what authority would it be that
Nova Roma's "freedom of worship" clause could be abrogated? By what
right would it fall to allow the College of Pontiffs (or any Nova
Roman religious authority) to exclude that deity?

Vale,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, David Kling <tau.athanasios@g...> wrote:
>
> Salve:
>
> Nova Roma does not entertain the idea of sanctioning an official
Imperial Cult. Any application to the Collegium Pontificum for a
sacerdos or flamen of the Imperial cult would be rejected. At least,
this is my understanding.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40558 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Salve Cato, et salvete quirites,

I know you addressed this question to pontifex Modianus, but I have some
knowledge of the answer.

gaiusequitiuscato wrote:

> Just a note: if an emperor --- or actually any member of the imperial
> or proto-imperial families (I'm thinking of the Divus Iulius, for
> example)--- was deified, then under what authority would it be that
> Nova Roma's "freedom of worship" clause could be abrogated? By what
> right would it fall to allow the College of Pontiffs (or any Nova
> Roman religious authority) to exclude that deity?

Nova Roman citizens may worship whatever they wish to worship in their
religio privata. Thus they have complete freedom of worship. This does
not, however, include any implicit right to have their diety of choice
given official standing in the Religio Publica.

Vale, et valete,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40559 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus wrote:

> Both as a citizen and as a candidate for Praetor I strongly oppose
> this proposal to adopt the main list guidelines as a Lex .
>
> This is one Lex that we surely do not need.
> [...]

> Please vote NO on the LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE

I am in complete agreement. This works well as a *guideline* but is
far too long and detailed to be a lex. Let future praetores use
their judgement; they should not be reduced to mere lackeys of their
predecessors.

There is absolutely no need for this to be a lex.

Valete, Octavius.

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40560 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: In legem Apulam de tributis
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

There's a large pile of legislation being put in front
of us here, quirites. At the risk of (a) taking up a
lot of bandwidth and (b) imagining that people are
more interested in my opinion than they really are,
I'm going to beg your indulgence while I go through
each proposed lex in a separate message.

The first the is lex Apula de tributis. This proposal
concerns the annual tax (membership feee, tributum),
the way it is calculated, the way it is levied, and so
on. It largely builds on established practice, and at
first reading I see nothing very objectionable about
it.

However, I urge you very strongly to vote NO to this
proposal. In the ancient republic the legislative
power of the populus was very broad, but it was
subject to certain limitations. One of the most
important of those limitations was that certain key
areas of policy were left entirely in the hands of the
senate and were *not* dealt with by legislation. The
two most important areas of policy which were left to
the senate were foreign policy and fiscal policy.

There are very good reasons why this was done. The
senate is the only body in the Roman republican
constitution which is really suitable for taking a
long view and managing policies which take effect over
many years. Foreign and fiscal policies are the most
obvious examples of areas in which long-term planning
are crucial.

Allowing people to vote for their own rate of taxation
is self-evidently unwise. No one wants to be taxed.
Taxation is something we put up with because we want
the public treasury to spend money on things we
support. If you want a sandwich, you pay the price of
the sandwich. You can choose which sandwich you want,
and you can take into account the price when you're
choosing. But you don't get to choose the sandwich
*and* the price. It's obvious. But if the comitia
start legislating on tax-policy, that's exactly the
situation we risk ending up with.

The rate of taxation proposed in the lex Apula is a
very reasonable one, and optional at that. But what
if, as Nova Roma's activities and services expand, the
treasury gets drained and the rate of taxation needs
to be raised? Since the current rate will be fixed in
a lex, it will only be possible to raise the rate with
another lex. Have you ever tried asking people to vote
for higher taxes? Not an easy task. There are a lot of
people in Nova Roma at the moment who don't think
there should be any taxes at all.

And let's come back to the historical point. When did
the Roman comitia first legislate concerning economic
policy? It was during the tribunate of Ti. Gracchus in
133 - the year which is widely accepted as the
beginning of the end for the Roman republic. It was a
year in which many people from many different parts of
the political spectrum did unconstitutional and
unconscionable things. A tribune used his veto
unconstitutionally; another tribune unconstitutionally
deposed his colleague; in the end a tribune was
murdered. It was a year in which almost every ancient
rule which had sustained the repuyblic for hundreds of
years was broken. And one of the things which was done
in that terrible year was that the comitia were for
the first time asked to legislate both on foreign
policy and on fiscal policy. That is a very, very bad
precedent.

So, whether you agree with what this lex says or not,
I urge you to vote NO. It should NOT be a lex. The
comitia should NOT legislate on economic policy. The
consul should NOT ask us to break one of the
fundamental principles of the republican constitution,
and when he asks us to do so we should NOT do it.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40561 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Popillia, in legem Apulam de magistratuum ejuratione
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

These two proposals - the lex Popillia de magistratuum
ejuratione and the lex Apula de abdicatione
magistratuum - are mutually exclusive alternatives,
and each voter must choose either one or the other
(or, indeed, neither). They both concern the
resignation of office by a magistrate. (The correct
historical term, by the way, is ejuratio, not
abdicatio.)

The core question is whether a magistrate who resigns
his office and / or his citizenship should be allowed
a period of grace in which he can change his mind,
retract his resignation, and thus remain in office.
The lex Apula is in favour of such a period of grace,
the lex Popillia is against it.

I urge you to support the lex Popillia. It is simple
and clear. It will mean that when a magistrate says he
resigns, that is is exactly what will happen. If he
changes his mind, he will be able to stand for
election to the same office. You may ask why, then, he
shouldn't be allowed just to keep his office in the
first place. The answer is that a resignation from
office is a very important and serious decision. It
may be the right decision, or it may be the wrong one.
Either way, the way a magistrate makes that decision
and the reasons for which he makes it will tell us a
lot about that magistrate and his fitness for office,
one way or another. The voters should be given a
chance to act on that new insight into the
magistrate's mind. If his resignation shows him to be
mentally unstable, the voters should not be compelled
to suffer his continued tenure; if, on the other hand,
his resignation shows great seriousness and public
spirit, then the voters should be given a chance to
reaffirm and perhaps strengthen his mandate.

If, on the other hand, a magistrate is allowed to
resign and then change his mind and keep his job
without submitting to a reassessment by the voters
whom he serves, he will most likely be sapped of all
authority. Those who think his resignation shows a
weakness of character will use it to criticise him,
and will not let him forget it. His mandate will be in
question. No one will know whether he still has the
support of the populus. There will be very little he
can do. He will be, in the popular phrase, a lame
duck. That's not in anyone's interests. Better to let
him stand for election again and renew his mandate,
thus silencing all criticism.

The lex Apula is concerned, and rightly so, not to
encourage resignation from office. Accordingly, it
reduces the period of grace from the
originally-proposed nine days to a shorter period of
four days. I cannot see that these measures will do
anything to discourage resignations. The reduction to
four days merely means that a magistrate who takes
resignation seriously and gives long and careful
thought to such decisions will be penalized, while
fickle and unserious magistrates who change their
minds from one day to the next will be rewarded by
being allowed to keep their jobs. If resignation is a
serious matter then so is resuming office after a
resignation, and I don't see that four days can
possibly be sufficient to give such a decision the
thought and consultation it deserves.

The reduction from nine days to four days would also
the leave the law a confusing mess, for it would then
give nine days' grace to people who resign their
citizenship but only four to people who resign their
magistracy, *except* that if a person resigned his
citizenship *and* his magistracies then he would have
nine days rather than four. So there would be a
double-standard: people who resign citizenship and
magistracy at the same time would be given a longer
period of grace than people who resign magistracy
only.

I cannot see any merit in further complicating this
area of law. Complexity is what has caused the current
problem, and that problem is best solved by
simplicity, not by more complexity. I commend the lex
Popillia as the better solution.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40562 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: In legem Juliam de foro et moderatione
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

The next proposal which falls to be considered is the
lex Julia de foro et moderatione. It is essentially a
restatement of the current "List Guidelines" in
legislative form. It sets out the standards which the
praetores should uphold in their moderation of this
list, and the way in which they should enforce them.

I mentioned earlier that there are some things the
comitia simply should not legislate on at all,
regardless of the merit of the proposal in question.
This is another such area.

The praetores of the ancient republic carried out
their duties by edict. Each year the new praetores
issued an edictum setting out the way in which they
would administer justice that year. The edictum
remained substantially the same from one year to the
next, but it was always open to the praetores, acting
on their own initiative, to change it as it needed to
be changed, to adapt it to new circumstances and to
close any holes which had emerged in the previous
year.

This is how the praetores of Nova Roma have conducted
their supervision of the public forum until now, and
quite rightly so. It is one of the few areas of our
political system in which magistrates have
consistently followed historical tradition not because
the law compels them to but because they choose to.
Now we are asked to depart from that tradition.

Cn. Caesar has done a very thorough job of pointing
out the various problems and flaws in the content of
this proposal. I won't go over them again. The point
is that, even if the content were totally
unimpeachable, we should vote NO simply because this
is not a matter on which the comitia should legislate.

The very genius of Roman law was that it was kept
flexible by the mechanism of the annually renewed
praetorian edictum. Society changes, and the law must
change with it. The praetorian edictum is the way in
which the law changes with society. Improvements can
easily be made; errors can easily be corrected. The
praetores are elected because the voters trust them to
perform their duties diligently, and they have a
mandate to keep order as they see fit. To enact a lex
such as this puts the praetores in fetters and leaves
them no real discretion in the standards they choose
to apply. It would reduce the second highest office of
the cursus honorum into little more than a
paper-shuffling, box-ticking job.

We should NOT depart from one of the greatest
strengths of ancient Roman law. We should NOT deprive
future praetores of their discretion and their ability
to adapt the law to changing needs. We should vote NO
to this proposal.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40563 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Fabia de nominibus approbationibusque
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Like several other proposals before us in this session
of voting, the lex Fabia is essentially a restatement
of existing practice in the form of a lex. Unlike the
other examples, this proposal does not seek to
legislate on a subject which is traditionally outside
the powers of the comitia to legislate. Indeed there
is already legislation on this subject - the lex
Cornelia Maria, which this proposal supplements.

The subject is the mechanism by which new applications
for citizenship are approved, and particularly the
standards applied to the names requested by new
applicants. K. Buteo censor, this time two years ago,
ran for election on a manifesto of radical reform to
bring the names of Roman citizens much closer to
historical Roman names, and in the last two years,
with the help this year of his colleague Cn. Equitius,
he has made enormous progress on that front. There is
still a little more to be done, but it is capable of
being done within the framework of this lex.

The proposed lex Fabia is a huge improvement on the
current situation. We know that it will work because
most of it has already been working, under the
authority of the censorial edicta, this year and even,
in parts, last year too. Admission procedures and
onomastic policy are now largely settled and working
well. This proposal secures the progress which has
been made.

It is, I must say, a rather rambling piece of work,
and one which could have been made rather simpler and
more coherent. Indeed it probably would have been made
simpler and more coherent if it had not spent such a
very long time, both in the form of individual edicta
and as a compilation, being scrutinized by the
tribunes, who have this year insisted on being given
advance copies of legislation and have then held up
the progress of that legislation while they check it
for things they might like to veto. This move on their
part has been, I don't doubt, entirely
well-intentioned and meant to produce better
legislation, but I hope they will recognize that in
many cases it has merely slowed down the legislative
process so much that proposals are all coming out at
the very end of the year and, in some cases, in a
decidedly unfinished state.

Nonetheless, this is in substance a welcome and
desirable proposal, and I urge you to say YES to it.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40564 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
Salvete:

This is correct. A private citizen can, and some do, reverence the Imperial
Cult. However, it has been deemed appropriate to focus the Religio
(primarily) upon the Republican ideal, and not to focus on the Imperial
Cult. There are surely pros and cons to this, but it is felt a better
option NOT to give the Imperial Cult official representation within the
state religion of Nova Roma.

Valete;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/10/05, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Cato, et salvete quirites,
>
> I know you addressed this question to pontifex Modianus, but I have some
> knowledge of the answer.
>
> gaiusequitiuscato wrote:
>
> > Just a note: if an emperor --- or actually any member of the imperial
> > or proto-imperial families (I'm thinking of the Divus Iulius, for
> > example)--- was deified, then under what authority would it be that
> > Nova Roma's "freedom of worship" clause could be abrogated? By what
> > right would it fall to allow the College of Pontiffs (or any Nova
> > Roman religious authority) to exclude that deity?
>
> Nova Roman citizens may worship whatever they wish to worship in their
> religio privata. Thus they have complete freedom of worship. This does
> not, however, include any implicit right to have their diety of choice
> given official standing in the Religio Publica.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> -- Marinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40565 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
Salvete:

I share in the opinion of Marcus Octavius Germanicus. I see no need for
this Lex. Let the Praetors do their jobs, this Lex is simply unnecessary.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/10/05, Matt Hucke <hucke@...> wrote:
>
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus wrote:
>
> > Both as a citizen and as a candidate for Praetor I strongly oppose
> > this proposal to adopt the main list guidelines as a Lex .
> >
> > This is one Lex that we surely do not need.
> > [...]
>
> > Please vote NO on the LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
>
> I am in complete agreement. This works well as a *guideline* but is
> far too long and detailed to be a lex. Let future praetores use
> their judgement; they should not be reduced to mere lackeys of their
> predecessors.
>
> There is absolutely no need for this to be a lex.
>
> Valete, Octavius.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40566 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Popillia senatoria
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

In my last message I mentioned that some of these
proposed leges have been delayed by tribunician
scrutiny - and, I should add, by the absence of a
webmaster at a crucial time - and have consequently
not received all the work and discussion they
deserved. The lex Popillia senatoria is definitely not
one of these.

The substantial provisions contained in this proposal
were brought forward early this year for discussion,
and were also discussed in the senate. There were many
helpful contributions and criticisms, and these
resulted in a complete re-drafting the proposal. The
re-drafted proposal was brought forward again on this
list for discussion, and at that time received a
resounding endorsement from many distinsguished
citizens including:

K. Fabius Buteo
Cn. Equitius Marinus
Julilla Sempronia Magna
C. Livia
C. Fabius Buteo
Q. Caecilius Metellus
C. Minucius Scaevola
C. Curius Saturninus
C. Moravius Laureatus
Q. Cassius Calvus
M. Hortensia Major
Cn. Julius Caesar

I'm sure there were many more, so apologies to all
those I've missed - these were the names a quick
search of the archives revealed.

With so glittering a roll-call of supporters, one need
hardly rehease the merits of the proposal itself, but
let me state the briefly:

- It restores the historical procedures for the
choosing of new senatores;
- It fixes a limit to the size of the senate in
accordance with historical practice;
- It gives the censores their historical powers to
remove a senator who has behaved in a manner which
compromises the dignity of the senate;
- It gives the flamen Dialis his historical right to
attend and speak in the senate.

Quirites, I commend this proposal to you and urge you
to vote YES to the lex Popillia senatoria.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40567 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Apula nomine "Constitutional Amendment #1"
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

This proposal is a pretty straightforward one, and I
might as well quote it in full since it's nice and
short:

> COSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENT #1
>
> The Par. IV of Constitution of Nova Roma is amended
> as follows.
> The line:
>
> 'An office becomes vacant when the magistrate
> resigns or dies.'
> (Article IV, Preface)
>
> is hereby replaced by:
>
> 'An office becomes vacant when the the sitting
> magistrate dies or
> upon a legally valid resignation as defined by
> pursuant law''"

This proposal acknowledges that the law on
resignations of magistracy and of citizenship is in a
rather messy state and that there is a danger in
having the lex constitutiva use the word "resign"
without further definition. It's a shame that we're in
that situation, but in it we are, and it's a good idea
to acknowledge that.

This amendment will work just as well with either the
lex Apula or the lex Popillia on resignations (as
consul Caesar pointed out to me on my initial
sceptical inquiry!), and indeed will be of some use
even without either lex. I can see no disdvantage in
it.

I encourage you therefore to vote YES to this proposal.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40568 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Comitia Centuriata Candidates
Pompeia Minucia Tiberia Omnibus S.P.D.

I would like to render a few words of thanks and encouragement to
the following candidates in the forthcoming election:

For Censor:

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix Sarcedos Minerva

I am very happy that you have offered your services in this
important position

I was touched by your declaraton, Hadriane, and I truly believe that
you will execute your duties with wisdom, integrity and moral
courage. We can rest with you at the helm; our citizen databases,
our public morality, and our image as a republic is in good hands.

In addition, I've enjoyed your many posts on the Religio and the
Roman Military.

Quirites, Hadrianus can tell you all about the effectiveness of
various weaponry and armour used in antiqua, because he's worn this
armour and handled these weapons, many times in his years as a
reenactor. Fascinating stuff. His posts to the Militarium show his
practical as well as theoretical knowledge. His sincere, passionate
devotion to the Religio and to Roman virtue requires little to no
elaboration from me.

****

For Consul:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Sacerdos Pomonalis, Augur, Pontifex,
Propraetor, Scriba Censoris, Lictor (have I missed anything? :) )

You have my support, Modiane, in a collaborative effort toward an
effective consulship for Senatus Populesque Novae Romae.

****



For Praetor:

Caius Curius Saturninus Tribunis Plebis, Propraetor Thule

There has never been doubt in my mind regarding your true devotion
to the republic. As former Quaestor, your term as Tribunis Plebis,
Propraetorship of Thule, you have more than enough administrative
skills and knowledge of law. You have been active in the Magna
Mater Project in the past and other Ludi.

And by golly, if you can contend with the multiple attempts this
year to knock you off your pedestal, challenging Tribune potestas
and challenging the rights of Tribunes to utilize judgement
regarding Plebian magistrates,etc. then I am quite confident that
you will serve a full term as Praetor with no problem. You are well
prepared for any stresses or surprises of a Praetorhip!


At the first of the year, during what's professonally considered a
critical and stressful time for men, the birth of a first
child....the new father thing...you resigned.

You then, obviously, gave the old brain cage a good shake...and
thought...What in Hades am I doing? Ahh, and your still voice
inside the brain cage said...'ahh,Dad...like you're umm resigning,
silly'...Hello?'

And you came back, and you are still back, and probably the next
time you do that will be when you have another 'first' born...so I
am not worried about that. Having a baby is not just womens'
work...it an overwhelming event for dad too.

I have worked with four magistrates, male, whose wives have had
babies while they were in term, and a strange metamorphosis has
overtaken all of them, except one. I will give Perusiane credit for
being the calmest!

This metamorphosis has obviously been deemed very necessary,
*apparently*, as it happens more often than not. Fortunately, it's
only temporary....and a small price for the procreation of natural
Nova Roma familia :) And the familia is special and sacred,
especially so in consideration of the via Romana and the concept of
its 'sacra' relative to the Religio. So, I have not lost faith in
Saturnine over this incident.

You have my stones at the cista, honoured Tribune.


For Praetor:



Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus Sacerdos et Praeco Anarei Provincia
Thule.

I shall support your candidacy as well, Octavi. You have served
well as former Quaestor, Accensus, and past webmaster for NR. You
are also provincial webmaster. You have worked steadily in various
ways, since 2001, to foster the growth of the republic. I find
myself quite often in agreement with your appraisals regarding the
law and its just application. I am confident that you will deliver
not only 'the law' but you will administer the law with the goal of
justice, which is what gives the law its reason for being. You are
cooperative and easy to work with.

You are not heard from on a steady basis in this forum. When you
post it is an important issue that needs to be visited. Your very
important work has been done behind the scenes and done well.

And you certainly utilize your spare time wisely, and have set an
example for us all in this regard...winning the Certamen Petronianum
is a prize that took effort and consistency to win; it is a prize
for you, but also indirectly, an accolade for the republic as well.

****

Valete!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40569 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Apula nomine "Constitutional Amendment #2"
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Another proposal without a name so far, this one does
two things:

1. It says that people are to be put into urban tribes
not because they fail to vote but because they fail to
pay their taxes; and

2. It removes the requirement for the assignment of
people to tribes to be done by the censores.

Both these changes are very sensible ones. The rule
that urban tribes were for people who don't vote was
originally laid down before there were any taxes at
all, and it was at that time the best way anyone could
think of to distinguish active citizens from inactive
ones. Since then we've introduced taxes, and it is now
(I believe) common practice for capite censi
(non-tax-payers) to be put in the urban tribes along
with the non-voters. Thus the rule about non-voters is
merely an extra bit of hassle for the censores,
diribitores, and custodes, who between them have to
identify who voted and who didn't. These magistrates
are already among the busiest in our constitution, and
this will be a small but welcome relief for them.

The point about whether it is the censores or someone
else who assigns people to tribes is a small one, but
it's useful to clear it up now. I hope, and so do
others, that in the future we shall be able to go over
to a historical system in which censores are only
elected every so often and do not stay in office all
the time. The introduction last year of the rogatores
as assistants to the censores was a step toward this,
and this change is another small step. It will,
ordinarily, remain the task of the censores to assign
the tribes, as it was historically; but when they are
out of office someone else will need to do it, or it
will need to be done randomly by computer, and this
will need to be resolved by a lex in due course. This
amendment paves the way for that future lex.

So, two small and useful changes. I urge you to vote
YES to this proposal.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40570 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Pro lege Apula de magistro araneario
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

This proposal makes the relatively simple change of
removing the magister aranearius (the webmaster) from
the ranks of the elected vigintisexviri and making the
office an appointed one under the supervision of the
senate.

I can't but feel that it is right to have the
webmaster appointed by the senate rather than elected
by the people. It is not a political job but a
technical one, and our frequent changes of webmaster
have shown that flexibility is needed in his
appointment and supervision. The senate is better able
to give this flexibility than the cumbersome process
of elections.

I must say that, as a matter of drafting, it seems
rather excessive to include the entire text of the lex
Equitia de vigintisexviris in this proposal *minus*
the paragraph about the magister. Would it not be
easier, and take up less space in the tabularium, to
say simply "Paragraph A is removed from article II of
the lex Equitia de vigintisexviris"?

Of course I'm assuming that no other changes are being
made to the lex Equitia by this proposal. I must admit
that I haven't compared the texts word by word. But if
there *are* any other proposed changes, the consul
should at the very least draw our attention to them,
and I would go further and say that they should not be
included in this proposal. There is a long-standing
historical prohibition on legislative proposals
including unrelated items (called "pork-barrel"
proposals in the U.S., and "leges saturae" by the
ancient Romans"). Changes to the jobs of the other
vigintisexviri should not go through under the heading
of "lex de magistro araneario".

But, subject to that suggested amendment, I urge you
to support and vote YES to this proposal.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40571 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: In legem Apulam de assiduis et capite censis
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

The last proposal brought forward for our
consideration is the lex Apula de assiduis et capite
censis.

This is, by and large, a good proposal, and a sensible
one. It tightens up the rules which encourage people
to pay taxes, and in particular on the rules which
require magistrates and other public servants to be
assidui (tax-payers). However, it suffers from two
flaws, one minor, one fatal.

The first is, I think, merely an error of drafting.
Article II says that:

> No special
> conditions shall be placed on assidui in regards to
> their
> placement
> in centuries and tribes or their ability to run for
> or hold
> office.

The problem with this is that it would unintentionally
destroy the current system of giving citizens with
more century-points greater voting-power in the
comitia centuriata. If "no special conditions" are
placed on assidui "in regards to their placement in
centuries", then it follows that all assidui must be
placed equally in centuries without discrimination.
But in order for our system to function it is
fundamental that citizens with more century-points are
placed in higher centuries and that the higher
centuries contain fewer citizens than the lower
centuries. This system exists to replicate the
historical functioning of the comitia centuriata. This
piece of wording would seriously interfere with that
function.

But that is, I believe, an unintentional one and
easily remedied. The more serious problem is this:

> D. Members of the Senate and Ordinarii
> Sitting magistrates of the ordinarii and Senatores
> who become
> members of the Capite Censi due to non-payment of
> taxes may be removed from office by the Censors.

The power to make and unmake magistrates of the Roman
people lies entirely and solely with the Roman people.
A magistrate can only be created by election in the
comitia, and once created he cannot be deprived of his
office except by his own resignation, death, or
disappearance. The idea that the censores can deprive
an elected magistrate of his office is absolutely
abhorrent to the principles of the ancient republican
constitution.

Ancient magistrates did some terrible things - much
worse than failing to pay their taxes. But they were
never, *never* removed from office at the discretion
of some other magistrate. No magistrate has ever had
the power to depose another magistrate. It is simply
intolerable.

Quirites, unless this provision is revised, I can only
urge you to ignore the otherwise considerable merits
of this proposal and vote NO if you value the
republican constitutional principles which preserved
the republic of our ancestores for hundreds of years.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40572 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: De legibus: summary
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

For the benefit of those who didn't feel like reading
all those messages of mine, here's a summary of how I
urge and entreat you to vote on the various proposed
leges:

NO to the lex Apula de tributis.

NO to the lex Apula de abdicatione magistratuum.

YES to the lex Popillia de magistratu ejurando.

NO to the lex Julia de foro et moderatione.

YES to the lex Fabia de nominibus approbationibusque.

YES to the lex Popillia senatoria.

YES to "Constitutional Amendment #1".

YES to "Constitutional Amendment #2".

YES to the lex Apula de magistro araneario.

NO to the lex Apula de assiduis et capite censis.





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40573 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Flamen Dialis
Salvete Omnes:

This question is for the Pontifices and/or other Religio scholars.

In light of the multitude of restrictions, rules/regulations imposed
upon the Flamen Dialis and his wife, is it even 'possible' to
reconstruct this role with any accuracy? I don't see it as
awfully 'probable' based on what I know of the position, which,
admittedly is likely less than the people to whom I'm addressing this
question....but is it even possible?

Thanks et valete
Po
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40574 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Behavior in NR
On 12/8/05, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Senator, for clearing that up. Your original message didn't
> make clear the fact that your statement "A trial is about theatrics
> and personality, not impartiality" applied only to the US justice system.


Well I'd say it certainly applies here in Britain as well. And having read
about some of the old Roman trials I'd say they were absolute masters at
'theatrics and personality' :-)

Flavia Lucilla Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40575 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Timeline Question
C. Equitius Cato Cn. Equitio Marino G. Fabio Buteoni Modiano S.P.D.

Salvete viri.

Thank you both for the explanations. Mind you, there is absolutely
nothing in any part of any Nova Roma religious website which precludes
the organization of a cultus dedicated to a deified emperor; if there
has been a determination that any attempt to do so will be rejected,
it should be made clear somewhere. Otherwise, under the guidelines
currently extant for an application to create a cultus, it would need
to be treated exactly the same way as any other application for any
other god or goddess.

Valete bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40576 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Flamen Dialis
Salvete:

Surely there were many taboos associated with the Flamen Dialis. But I
believe, as some of the other pontifices (although there are some who
disagree with me/us) do, that many of these taboos are a product of the time
are were designed as a check and balance to power. There are taboos
associated with ALL flamen, but these taboos are not observed. For example,
a Flamen would not go out in public without wearing his Apex, or liturgical
headgear. This was for all Flamen. I don't see any of our Flamen -- myself
included -- keeping this restriction alive. It simply is not practical in
our day and age.

It is very difficult to reconstruct the ancient priesthoods, and maintain
the strict taboos when we live within a "Roman" Diaspora as we do. I am of
the belief that these taboos and restrictions need to be re-negotiated
between the state and the Gods. The question remains, is it better to put a
priesthood on hold dedicated to the sacrifice and honor of Iuppiter, or is
it better to re-negotiate the taboos associated with that priesthood in
light of new situations so that Iuppiter can be adequetly honored? This is
the important question.

Additionally, the priesthood of Rex Sacrorum has limitations attached to it
because -- some would state -- they did not want the Rex Sacrorum to attempt
to bring back the Regal period of Rome. Within the context of Nova Roma
such a "royal takeover" is simply NOT likely. Likewise, the Vestals of Nova
Roma are not wards of the state. They still have to make a living and
support themselves. There is currently not enough funds in the treasury to
support the financial welfare of our Vestal. Additionally, it seems
unlikely that young girls will be taken from their family and raised as
Vestals.

If the Romans were anything, they were very practical.

When, if ever, there comes to exist a Nova Roman encampment of people living
in a physical locality and our society is living within a geographical
community that is self supportive then it might be more appropriate to
institute some of these taboos. But until such time, I see no reason to go
without valuable priesthoods because of antiquated taboos.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/10/05, pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>
wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> This question is for the Pontifices and/or other Religio scholars.
>
> In light of the multitude of restrictions, rules/regulations imposed
> upon the Flamen Dialis and his wife, is it even 'possible' to
> reconstruct this role with any accuracy? I don't see it as
> awfully 'probable' based on what I know of the position, which,
> admittedly is likely less than the people to whom I'm addressing this
> question....but is it even possible?
>
> Thanks et valete
> Po


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40577 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Century realignment and new Tribal assignments done
Salvete Quirites,

The centuries have just been realigned and the tribes brought up to date
with citizens who've joined Nova Roma since the last election. Also,
all new citizens who have completed their probationary periods should
have voter codes now. The voter codes can be obtained in e-mail by
going to your album civium page and clicking on the "get voter code"
button. This will initiate a process which will e-mail the voter code
to your e-mail address of record.

If anybody can not obtain their voter code, they should contact me
immediately.

Valete,

Gn. Equitius Marinus
Censor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40578 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Comitia Centuriata Candidates
Salve:

Thank you so much for the very kind words! Assuming that we are both
elected Consul, it will be an honor to make history by serving with the
first woman Consul of Nova Roma. You have my word that I will indeed
collaborate and work WITH you for the common good of Nova Roma.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/10/05, pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> ****
>
> For Consul:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Sacerdos Pomonalis, Augur, Pontifex,
> Propraetor, Scriba Censoris, Lictor (have I missed anything? :) )
>
> You have my support, Modiane, in a collaborative effort toward an
> effective consulship for Senatus Populesque Novae Romae.
>
> ****
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40579 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Flamen Dialis
A. Apollonius C. Buteoni omnibusque sal.

> ... For example,
> a Flamen would not go out in public without wearing
> his Apex, or liturgical
> headgear. This was for all Flamen.

Actually most of the flamines were only required to
wear the apex on ritual occasions. The flamen Dialis
had to wear it all the time because, by the nature of
his priesthood, every occasion was a ritual occasion
for him.

There may well be ways to adapt the old taboos (Latin
"caerimoniae") to preserve their ritual meaning while
making them easier to observe. If the collegium should
ever come to consider the issue, I recommend it give
careful attention to Vangaard's book "Flamen", which
gathers and analyses all the ancient evidence
concerning the flamines.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40580 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: New Endeavor
Salvette Omnes,

Since I am not one to sit back idly while others make history, I
have taken it upon myself to create a proposal for which I will
petition Caesars Palace, UNLV, and various youth groups to present a
service to bring Roman history to youths and college students. The
main objective is to make an interactive environment for the people
of Las Vegas. I am currently in the process of writing the second
draft for this. I believe this will be an ideal way not only to
spread the interest in Roman history, but also Nova Roma as well.
Nova Roma will be incorporated into the proposal as an existing
entity that shows how Roman society functioned. I will be doing this
outside of Nova Romas scope as I have failed to hear back from my
Superiors here.

This concept is not new or original, but I believe will the
encouragement of the local business community, UNLV and Caesars
palace I will be able to bring a new world to students of all ages.
Any input or recommendations would be valued as you, my peers and
magistrates can offer insight that I may have missed.

Vale,
Marcus Sejanus Marcellus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40581 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
HEAR! HEAR! I applaud you! I wish I had the guts to do
things like that. Nonetheless, I dont. So I wish you
well. Just one word of advice. If the Senatvs did not
get back to you, I wouldnt go shouting that from the
rafters like you kinda just did. What you intend to do
is AWESOME but some of the powers that be here might
get their scrolls in a knot. Especially if it involves
the Macro -world and/or the Nova Roma logo. Gods bless
your misson and enthusiasm, amice. Good luck!
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
> Salvette Omnes,
>
> Since I am not one to sit back idly while others
make history, I
> have taken it upon myself to create a proposal for
which I will
> petition Caesars Palace, UNLV, and various youth
groups to present a
> service to bring Roman history to youths and college
students. The
> main objective is to make an interactive environment
for the people
> of Las Vegas. I am currently in the process of
writing the second
> draft for this. I believe this will be an ideal way
not only to
> spread the interest in Roman history, but also Nova
Roma as well.
> Nova Roma will be incorporated into the proposal as
an existing
> entity that shows how Roman society functioned. I
will be doing this
> outside of Nova Romas scope as I have failed to hear
back from my
> Superiors here.
>
> This concept is not new or original, but I believe
will the
> encouragement of the local business community, UNLV
and Caesars
> palace I will be able to bring a new world to
students of all ages.
> Any input or recommendations would be valued as you,
my peers and
> magistrates can offer insight that I may have
missed.
>
> Vale,
> Marcus Sejanus Marcellus.
>
>
>
>
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40582 From: Lucius Servulius Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Salve,
Did you recive my e-mail regarding the legios in LV.

Vale. Optio. L. Servilius
Legio VI - Vex II


On 12/10/05, legio_vi_tribunis <legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
>
> Salvette Omnes,
>
> Since I am not one to sit back idly while others make history, I
> have taken it upon myself to create a proposal for which I will
> petition Caesars Palace, UNLV, and various youth groups to present a
> service to bring Roman history to youths and college students. The
> main objective is to make an interactive environment for the people
> of Las Vegas. I am currently in the process of writing the second
> draft for this. I believe this will be an ideal way not only to
> spread the interest in Roman history, but also Nova Roma as well.
> Nova Roma will be incorporated into the proposal as an existing
> entity that shows how Roman society functioned. I will be doing this
> outside of Nova Romas scope as I have failed to hear back from my
> Superiors here.
>
> This concept is not new or original, but I believe will the
> encouragement of the local business community, UNLV and Caesars
> palace I will be able to bring a new world to students of all ages.
> Any input or recommendations would be valued as you, my peers and
> magistrates can offer insight that I may have missed.
>
> Vale,
> Marcus Sejanus Marcellus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40583 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Salve, Alas I think I misrepresented myself, I meant no offense to
NR, but rather that this was an undertaking by me. I think my wording
was rather blunt, and sometimes thats my fault in life. I apprecaite
your support, and I shall update all as it progresses. I once again
apologise to anyone that I offended, but as I stated, I was
undertaking this myself so if I crashed and burned it would not be a
reflection on NR.


> If the Senatvs did not
> get back to you, I wouldnt go shouting that from the
> rafters like you kinda just did.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40584 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Im not offended but some folks here love quoting
leges. I would hate to see a motivated citizen leave
because of a misquote. The next thing you know there
would be a whirling of wax tablets and a new law. :^)
Again, I wish you well. I WISH I could be a
re-enactor.
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
> Salve, Alas I think I misrepresented myself, I
meant no offense to
> NR, but rather that this was an undertaking by me.
I think my wording
> was rather blunt, and sometimes thats my fault in
life. I apprecaite
> your support, and I shall update all as it
progresses. I once again
> apologise to anyone that I offended, but as I
stated, I was
> undertaking this myself so if I crashed and burned
it would not be a
> reflection on NR.
>
>
> > If the Senatvs did not
> > get back to you, I wouldnt go shouting that from
the
> > rafters like you kinda just did.
> >
>
>
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40585 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: URGENT!!!!!!!! -- MISTAKE!!!!!!!
Laies and Gentlemen;

I have been notified thatI have made a mistake in the "Roman Times Quarterly." This mistake was to credit the article "Fabi Btens" to the requester of the article rather than the Author. The author, requester, and readers of this article have my most sincere apology for this error. My only excuse is my very unprofeessional attempts at being an Editor. The fault is entirely mine.

The Author of the article "Fabi Btens" is:

----Aulus Appolonius Cordus----.

I sincerely hope that this apology is received in time that the proclaimed urgency of this error has not disrupted anyone's life or pursuit to happiness!!!

With Apology;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40586 From: Tim Gallagher Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Some Proposed Laws
Salve Romans

I wanted to share some thoughts on some of the proposed laws that we will be voting on.

Proposed CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT #1

As the co-author of the current constitution provision (Article IV) which is just one year old and reads

"An office becomes vacant if the magistrate resigns or dies"

I respectfully submit that this simpler language is better and leaves less room for misinterpretation and removes all other magistrate from the process if another official wishes to resign. Any magistrate is free to ask others for advice but as the "gift" of the people of Nova Roma he needs to submit his resignation to them and no one else.

A resignation once posted is an announcement that one has vacated the office in question. The proposed change seems to be saying that an announced resignation is not now legal when in fact it is.

I respectfully request that you vote against this proposed change.

LEX POPILLIA DE MAGISTRATU EIURANDO

I strongly support the adoption of the Lex Popillia de Magistratu Eiurando.
It is a reasonable solution to our ongoing resignation of magistrates problem.

LEX APULA DE ABDICATIONE MAGISTRATUUM

I respectfully oppose this Lex as an unnecessary complication of a simple proposition.

Its title indicates that it is about the abdication of a magistrate ie a resignation and yet
40 % is addressed to the resignation of citizens and not magistrates.

If a magistrate wishes to resign for what ever reason the procedure should be simple and straightforward.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40587 From: David Kling Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Question on Proposed Laws
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

This year within Nova Roma has seen little activity compared to previous
years. This being the case, WHY are so many laws being proposed now with
only a few weeks left in the year? There is a LOT to digest, and only a few
days for some of us to consider them before voting starts. What is the
reason for waiting until the last minute?

I understand the legislation submitted by the Censors has been two years in
the making, and I am fully aware of the evolution of that particular
proposal. However, I don't see a reason to wait so long. I understand we
have been without a webmaster until just recently, but we did have a
webmaster for some time before his official resignation. Why does it *seem*
that everything is voted upon at the end of the year?

I'm just curious why it all had to wait until the last minute.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40588 From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Endorsements for the CPT
Salvete Omnes,

I would like to add my voice to everything that has been already said about the
dedication and the seriousness of Lucius Rutilius Minervalis. You can vote for him
without any hesitation.

Valete,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio


--- Lucius Rutilius Minervalis <pjtuloup@...> wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to thank Censor Marinus for his kind words and to say
> that I believe that its recommendations are the expression of wisdom.
> Indeed, I work in his cohors with several of the names he endorses
> (Scolastica, Severus, Cordus) and I could note how much are qualified
> and devoted to NR these citizens, doing a considerable and
> high-quality work: without the inevaluable help of these experts, my
> task of Scriba Censoris will be extremely difficult and I'm sure they
> will show the same qualities in other offices, to benefit NR.
>
> Valete,
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis,
> Aedilician Quaestor
> Scriba Censoris
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40589 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Salve Marcelle,

I will gladly volunteer to go help you out at Caesar's Palace. But will they pay for my journey? Go for it buddy - Let the dice fly, damn, where have I heard that phrase before? ;-)

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: legio_vi_tribunis
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] New Endeavor


Salvette Omnes,

Since I am not one to sit back idly while others make history, I
have taken it upon myself to create a proposal for which I will
petition Caesars Palace, UNLV, and various youth groups to present a
service to bring Roman history to youths and college students. The
main objective is to make an interactive environment for the people
of Las Vegas. I am currently in the process of writing the second
draft for this. I believe this will be an ideal way not only to
spread the interest in Roman history, but also Nova Roma as well.
Nova Roma will be incorporated into the proposal as an existing
entity that shows how Roman society functioned. I will be doing this
outside of Nova Romas scope as I have failed to hear back from my
Superiors here.

This concept is not new or original, but I believe will the
encouragement of the local business community, UNLV and Caesars
palace I will be able to bring a new world to students of all ages.
Any input or recommendations would be valued as you, my peers and
magistrates can offer insight that I may have missed.

Vale,
Marcus Sejanus Marcellus.







SPONSORED LINKS Ancient history Fall of the roman empire The fall of the roman empire
Roman empire


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40590 From: Sensei Phil Perez Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Salve Flavius,

Now why the heck can't you be a re-enactor. The armor probably weighs less the all the crap you have wear right now.

Vires et honos,
Marcus Cassius Philippus
----- Original Message -----
From: raymond fuentes
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New Endeavor


Im not offended but some folks here love quoting
leges. I would hate to see a motivated citizen leave
because of a misquote. The next thing you know there
would be a whirling of wax tablets and a new law. :^)
Again, I wish you well. I WISH I could be a
re-enactor.
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
> Salve, Alas I think I misrepresented myself, I
meant no offense to
> NR, but rather that this was an undertaking by me.
I think my wording
> was rather blunt, and sometimes thats my fault in
life. I apprecaite
> your support, and I shall update all as it
progresses. I once again
> apologise to anyone that I offended, but as I
stated, I was
> undertaking this myself so if I crashed and burned
it would not be a
> reflection on NR.
>
>
> > If the Senatvs did not
> > get back to you, I wouldnt go shouting that from
the
> > rafters like you kinda just did.
> >
>
>
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40591 From: Lucius Servilius Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Voting
Salvete, Omnes

Please forgive me for asking this question. But this is the first time I will be able to vote in N.R. and I am a (little) confused as to when I will be voting. As in which time frame alloted. I am in Tribe: XX Plobilia- Century 50 - Assidui - Pleblian.

I have read several posts regarding voting procedure some refrence Tribe's. others refrence Century. I just want to vote correctly so it counts.

Any and all assistance regarding this will be greatly appreciated.

Valete, Lucius Servilius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40592 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: Voting
> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Seruilio quiritibusque omnibus S.P.D.
>
>
> While I am not the world¹s great expert on this, let me see if I can shed
> some light on this.
>
> Salvete, Omnes
>
> Please forgive me for asking this question. But this is the first time I will
> be able to vote in N.R. and I am a (little) confused as to when I will be
> voting. As in which time frame alloted. I am in Tribe: XX Plobilia- Century 50
> - Assidui - Pleblian.
>
> I have read several posts regarding voting procedure some refrence Tribe's.
> others refrence Century. I just want to vote correctly so it counts.
>
> ATS: All citizens are divided into tribes and centuries. The tribes
> elect one group of magistrates, and the centuries elect another. Laws are
> also voted on in the tribes or the centuries. The Comitia Populi Tributa, the
> tribes, may begin voting on December 12th. The Comitia Centuriata, the
> centuries, have a different system in which one century is chosen to vote
> first, then the rest of the first-class centuries vote, then the rest of us.
> All can vote after December 17th. Voting ends at 6 p.m. December 21st, Rome
> time, which is several hours (5 or 6, I believe) earlier than U.S. Eastern
> time. Placement in the centuries depends on the century points, which are
> allocated for longevity in NR and for participation in the government and/or
> religious offices. Those in the first class centuries have been here a long
> time, and held a lot of magistracies, so you may rest assured that you aren¹t
> in a first-class century. If you want to know what tribe and century you are
> in, go to your Album Civium page and make a note of your assignment, or print
> it out (as you have already done). Incidentally, those who don¹t pay their
> taxes are automatically placed in Century 51.
>
> ATS: I don¹t believe that the call for contio and election dates has gone
> out for the plebeian magistracies, the tribunate and the aedilitas plebeia.
> The call for candidates for these offices was issued later, and I expect that
> the contio will also be a bit later.
>
>
>
> Any and all assistance regarding this will be greatly appreciated.
>
> ATS: Hope this helps. It is a bit confusing, but it¹s the way the Romans
> did it‹except that the later centuries often didn¹t get to vote at all,
> whereas we are much more democratic.
>
> Valete, Lucius Servilius
>
> Vale, et ualete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40593 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
> A. Tullia Scholastica Gn. Iulio Caesari quiritibusque omnibus S.P.D.
>
> Gnaeus Iulius Caesar Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> I respect the intentions of all those involved in crafting it, no
> doubt the hours spent on preparing it, and I understand the need for
> moderation on this list, but I utterly oppose this proposed lex.
>
> Rarely have I seen in one lex so many examples of the type of
> drafting that plagues Nova Roma. This lex uses imprecise language,
> contains references to points that don't exist, enshrines
> generalities that would open the door to constant arguments over its
> scope, fails to provide definitions of prohibited actions, contains
> spelling mistakes and most empowers the Praetors to curtail
> constitutionally permitted freedom of speech, thus placing it in
> conflict with the Constitution.
>
> It is written in a style that is more conversational than legal.
> This would be a nightmare to enforce and in any civil or criminal
> trial that followed in a Nova Roman court that relied on this law in
> any way and an equally horrendous quagmire for those citizens
> unlucky enough to be selected to hear a case revolving around it.
>
> This lex opens the door to abuse by a Praetor so minded, a morass of
> legal debates, probablya few resignations along the way from
> posters caught in the wide-ranging scope of this law, not to mention
> well-intentioned Praetors who come into the line of fire over trying
> to interpret this ghastly mess.
>
> Allow me to demonstrate:
>
> "B. Language Policies.
> The forum in ancient Rome was a large venue, with many people of
> different cultures and languages conversing. Official information
> was in Latin, and in some cases Greek, but people were free to speak
> informally in the language of their choice. Our constitution
> mandates freedom of communication provided it is not dangerous or
> disruptive"
>
> GIC: Utterly redundant. This lex does not need a historical setting
> for simply determining what language should be used.
>
> ATS: Laws often have preambles. Often they are separated, and so
> labeled. This one apparently isn¹t; it refers specifically to the language
> policies, which should be clarified.
> ---------------------------------------
>
> "(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html) which
> stipulates, though comitial mandate, that any official government
> legislation or priestly decrees must be issued in Latin or English
> where applicable, so they can be translated verbatim into other
> languages to be more easily understood by the entirety of the
> populace."
>
> GIC: Redundant. Unless this lex replaces in part or wholly another
> lex, there is no need ever to reference a law, let alone to provide
> a rationale for what it does and why. This is an exceptionally
> dangerous drafting practice since unwittingly one law can end up
> contradicting another.
>
> ATS: Repetition is the mother of learning. It happens that many of our
> laws make reference to other laws, and some quote them. The language policies
> must be spelled out.
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> "II. MANDATORY BEHAVIOUR IN THE NOVA ROMA FORUM.
>
> A. Relevance of the posts
> It is not advisable to issue a message lacking benefit or relevance
> to the rest of the Main List subscribers. A systematic use of such
> replies is forbidden."
>
> GIC: Letting a Praetor decide whether a message has benefit or
> relevance invites deliberate or accidental censorship of free
> speech, which is of course unconstitutional. This section then fails
> to define what "systematic" is; how many occurrences? Two? Three?
> Twenty-two, or a hundred and three? Not only does this again endow a
> Praetor with too broad a power, it then also can cripple that
> Praetor as a poster could claim that systematic requires a number
> greater than the number of times he or she repeated themselves. This
> would then result, no doubt, in a provocatio appeal, and we all know
> where that would lead, or would not lead, to be more reflective of
> some people's interpretation of that section of the constitution.
>
> ATS: The praetores, their quaestores, and their scribae ALREADY make this
> determination, at least in regard to those who are moderated.
> ---------------------------------------
>
> B. Inappropriate behaviours.
> At all times maintain politeness in the expression of one's opinion
> and endeavour to respect the rights and opinions of others.
> (INCOMPLETE SENTENCE)
>
> GIC: This section is grammatically awkward and doesn't identify who
> it refers to explicitly. Yes, I know that it is meant to refer to a
> poster, but when laws don't specify who they affect, that is
> patently sloppy and open to interpretation.
>
> ATS: I suspect that a lot of leges have incomplete sentences, though a
> simple correction (by adding Œone should,¹ or Œa poster should¹) would not be
> out of the question.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "Inappropriate behaviour includes:
>
> use of words, epithets or formulas that are properly(determined by
> the Praetors or persons designated by them to moderate the list)
> offensive or might be considered normally offensive making another
> person look foolish;
> name-calling criticising the sender in her/his character rather than
> her/his
> ideas;"
>
> GIC: Who may consider such utterances offensive? This seeks to
> implement the use of the legal fiction of the "reasonable man",
> or, "man on the Clapham omnibus" test. It fails to include the
> term "reasonable" or to provide even a comparative determinant as to
> how this will be measured.
>
> ATS: Any proper praetor or scriba can well determine what is going to be
> offensive. Those who don¹t have such sensitivities shouldn¹t be doing that
> kind of work. I might also mention a little something about Yahoo guidelines,
> too.
>
>
> When is something "normally" offensive? Does this mean that on
> certain days it is less offensive? Does it mean that if certain
> people who have very thin skin complain or are Praetors, that their
> normal takes precedence over the offending poster? This needs o be
> defined or clarified.
>
> ATS: Don¹t be ridiculous.
>
> "Name-calling" is too broad a definition. The more simplistic
> occurrences will of course fit here, "You swine" etc. What about a
> magistrate who has consistently demonstrated ineptitude and has
> failed beyond a shadow of a doubt? A citizen who could be justified
> in saying "You are an utterly useless and inept magistrate" now will
> be prevented from calling such a magistrate to task, for surely this
> is name-calling? Or is it? It willd epend on the Praetor and that
> Praetor will then be locked into another dispute over whether it is
> a factual description or an insult. Imprecsion leads to muddle and
> muddle to hours spent rebutting legal challenges, when for the sake
> of crafting a document properly this could be avoided. Again, this
> section places too great a power into the hands of a Praetor, and
> opens the door to another conflict with the Constitution.
>
>
> ATS: It should be very clear just what is meant here: racial epithets,
> sexual epithets, insults about one¹s religion, etc. That is what is meant by
> name-calling.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "Further, in the interests of protecting our younger citizens, sexual
> references, including those to nudity, must be strictly within the
> context of an historical discussion. Otherwise, they are to be made
> in private."
>
> GIC: A better and less broad way of defining this would be to
> include standard terminology that can be defined easily,
> i.e. "lewd", "immoral", etc. The trouble is that again, as with any
> censorship law, you will end up sweeping up comments that were never
> intended to be offensive.
>
> ATS: Some people don¹t necessary intend to offend, but do, simply because
> of their speech habits. Once again, we have minors on this list, and not all
> adults find such discussion even remotely appropriate. There are also those
> Yahoo guidelines. Civilized people know when and where to discuss such
> matters.
>
> I haven¹t noted that Œlewd¹ and Œimmoral¹ have any fixed definition.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "In addition, for the same reason, references to heavy drinking,
> extreme violence, and the like shall also be confined to a strictly
> educational context, not presented as desirable behaviours"
>
> GIC: What about drinking presented in the context of a joke, where
> there is no suggestion that this is a desirable behaviour? I have
> just circumvented this section.
>
> ATS: Do you think that any sensible person would see this otherwise?
> However, those jokes CAN lead people to believe that heavy drinking is
> desirable, or that any number of other activities is desirable‹say, becoming
> addicted to heroin or cocaine.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "Extensive citation from other authors without permission"
>
> GIC: Define an author? Is, for instance Cordus not an author, and as
> it is often necessary to quote large sections of his postings to
> address them, do I then have to obtain his permission?
>
> ATS: Here again, you¹re being ridiculous, as those who hold copyrights
> might well agree.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "..or any citation from any sources without attribution"
>
> GIC: This maybe good practice but to make it subject of a law, with
> penalties attached is ridiculously prohibitive.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "C. Public or private posts.
> Always contact first the individual concerned privately, explaining
> the rationale for grievance and asking for clarification. In a
> second instance contact the Praetores directly if not able to
> resolve the issue privately."
>
> GIC: Utterly unacceptable. The state has no business forcing people
> to engage people that they don't like, or worse, in private
> discussion. This section will deluge the Praetors and their staff
> with petty fogging complaints, whines, moans, as well as real
> complaints. The system will be placed under immense strain and the
> Praetors will end up holding de-facto trials. How many candidates
> for Praetor want to have to spend their nights and weekends playing
> counsellor and therapist? This is unbelievably short-sighted.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "F. Sanctions
> In the case of a poster whose actions violate the guidelines
> mentioned in art.II in, the following course of escalation shall be
> followed:"
>
> GIC: What is artII in? Poor proof reading.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "..a second public memo describing the infraction, and a reminder to
> review the guidelines, if sanction described at point 1 was already
> applied in the last year.
> placement of the poster on moderated status (posts are still allowed
> but will be reviewed by the Praetors or their designate before being
> transmitted to the list), if sanction described at point 2 was.."
>
> GIC: I don't see any point 1 or 2 in this lex. This is a reference
> that leads nowhere. Sloppy wording.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "No citizen shall be kept
> in moderated status for more than two months without a firm sentence"
>
> GIC: What on earth does this mean? What happens is the Praetor
> thinks that the sentence wasn't firm enough or the law didn't allow
> for a sentence as firm as he or she wanted? This section allows a
> Praetor, so minded, to keep someone who has been tried on moderation
> for as long as they want.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "F. Off-topics.
> As stated, off-topic messages are admitted in the forum until the
> Praetors declare the thread not admissible or no ore admissible."
>
> GIC: What is "no ore"? Ore relates to minerals! If you mean "no
> more", which I assume the author did, then the construct is still
> awkward and needs to be cleaned up.
>
> ATS: Does your world lack typographical errors, especially in a language
> not native to you?
>
> The English may not be the best, but you¹re not writing in Italian, now
> are you, which would be a lot easier for the praetor in question.
> --------------------------------------
>
> "The Praetores shall decide what, if any, sanctions to apply,
> according to their own judgement. After coming to an agreement with
> one another concerning the nature and level of any applicable
> sanctions, the Praetores shall impose such penalties fairly on all
> offenders, whatever their political, religious, or other leanings.
>
> GIC: No, no no. This won't do at all. This allows a Praetor to take
> a section of the lex that was headed "III. DISCRETIONARY BEHAVIOUR
> IN THE FORUM" and apply an unlimited range of sanctions without even
> the need for a trial and sentence (as the more serious sections
> did). It is patently absurd that a minor section of the lex has more
> punitive power against citizens that the more serious.
>
> Nova Roma's state lists are subject to Section II.B.4 of the
> constitution:
>
> "The right to participate in all public fora and discussions, and
> the right to reasonably expect such fora to be supported by the
> State. Such communications, regardless of their content, may not be
> restricted by the State, except where they represent an imminent and
> clear danger to the Republic. Such officially sponsored fora may be
> expected to be reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining
> order and civility; "
>
> This lex would impose standards that go far further than that
> mandated by the constitution. The powers of this lex are punitive
> and far too broad.
>
> ATS: Kindly note those words Œorder and civility.¹ They are clarified
> above, if not in the most concise fashion, based in large part upon the
> moderation edicta which have been published in the past. There are places for
> those who don¹t like moderated lists to discuss anything they like; I
> understand that there is at least one such list available to NR citizens. The
> ML needs order and civility, and consideration for the sensibilities of its
> members. Their numbers have grown from about 640 two years ago to over 1100
> now. Perhaps this has something to do with the comparative lack of
> argumentation on the ML, the absence of the more aggressive individuals who
> could be guaranteed to start a fight over next to nothing, or perhaps to a
> sudden increase in the number of people who are interested in ancient Rome.
> The latter would be nice, but I rather think that the former two items have a
> lot to do with this.
>
> This lex is a disaster and should be withdrawn, immediately, and if
> not voted down.
>
> ATS: I disagree. Improvements could perhaps be made, especially since
> this scriba couldn¹t read the file posted to the cohors, but this law is more
> likely to prevent abuse by praetores than the reverse.
>
>
>
> Valete
> Caesar
>
> Vale, et ualete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy P. Gallagher"
> <spqr753@m...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Salve Romans
>> >
>> > Both as a citizen and as a candidate for Praetor I strongly oppose
>> > this proposal to adopt the main list guidelines as a Lex .
>> >
>> > This is one Lex that we surely do not need.
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40594 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Venator for Diribitor!
Avete omnes;

I'm still around, just have been away from the keyboard due to a business trip.

Got a few minutes of e-access, so I'd thought I'd throw my name into
the wind again.

Looking forward (home again Thursday).

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor
Quaestor emeritus, Diribitor (nee Rogator) emeritus
Provincial Legate emeritus

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/

--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40595 From: legio_vi_tribunis Date: 2005-12-10
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
Salvette,

We thank you all for the encouragement. I spoke with my
armorer/blacksmith and got new ideas from him, then myself and the
better half went down to Caesars and had my picture taken with the
emperor and cleopatra....wait thats not the important part. Actually
I spoke with the PR manager (Pete Rose and Billy Dee Williams were
there). After a short chat, I have an appointment next week with the
PR committee to discuss this idea. Apparently they tried something in
the past but had no one who was willing to do the leg work. So it
seems were off and running. I'll keep you all updated as we go.

Marcus Sejanus Marcellus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 40596 From: raymond fuentes Date: 2005-12-11
Subject: Re: New Endeavor
No plotting against the emperor this time! or was that
your name sake? :-]
--- Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
<legio_vi_tribunis@...> wrote:
> Salvette,
>
> We thank you all for the encouragement. I spoke
with my
> armorer/blacksmith and got new ideas from him, then
myself and the
> better half went down to Caesars and had my picture
taken with the
> emperor and cleopatra....wait thats not the
important part. Actually
> I spoke with the PR manager (Pete Rose and Billy Dee
Williams were
> there). After a short chat, I have an appointment
next week with the
> PR committee to discuss this idea. Apparently they
tried something in
> the past but had no one who was willing to do the
leg work. So it
> seems were off and running. I'll keep you all
updated as we go.
>
> Marcus Sejanus Marcellus
>
>
>


S P Q R

Fidelis Ad Mortem.

Marcvs Flavivs Fides
Roman Citizen



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