Salve Fusce, et salvete quirites,

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus wrote:

> *Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,* who did not reply directly to me but to Livinius
> Crassus and that "the goals that I placed before the Senate (and the Senate
> ratified) back during my consular year two years ago.". I will take that you
> thought of presenting to the Senate such goals because you felt like I do
> feel now, that the goals were not clear and had to be outlined clearly in
> order to be pursued.

Yes, that is correct.

> Yet, probably for my own fault, I was not aware of such act of yours, nor of
> what those Senate-approved goals are. Maybe it would be useful to repropose
> those to the public here as I think I'm not the only one in this igorance
> situation and to post them over the website too for newbies to know that we
> stand for.

They're currently posted in the tabularium, with all the other Senatus
Consulta.

http://novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2004-08-31-results.html

=== Citation Begins ====

VI. The Senate adopts the Senatus Consultum establishing priorities for
Nova Roma and their precedences.

Senatus Consultum establishing priorities for Nova Roma

PRIORITIES FOR NOVA ROMA IN ORDER OF PRECEDENCE

The Senate finds that the following items are all priorities for Nova
Roma. They are hereby established as such, in order of precedence. This
precedence shall not be interpreted to indicate that any item is
unimportant. All are priorities. The sole reason for assigning
precedence is to better focus resources and effort.

I. The Religio Romana; it's promotion, preservation, protection, and
diffusion throughout the communities of Nova Roma.

II. Establishment of a Nova Roma Endowment and its long term growth.

III. Sustaining support of existing projects, including the publication
of the Eagle, the Aedilian Fund for the Magna Mater Project, the
Scholarship Fund, and the Land Fund.

IV. Outreach, recruitment and retention of citizens, including fostering
interest in the activities of the Sodalities.

V. Promotion of Local Group activities.

VI. Encouraging citizens to become involved in the work of government

PASSES - Uti Rogas 17, Antiquo 1, Abstineo 2

=== End of Citation ====

These are our official organizational priorities, adopted by the Senate
in August, a year and a half ago.

Vale, et valete,

-- Marinus

Vale Censor

On 2/12/06, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> These are our official organizational priorities, adopted by the Senate
> in August, a year and a half ago.
>
>
I will take just a moment to reply to this one, if i may.

That explains my confusion.. indeed I knew of those, but, as you say, those
are organizational (shall we say "operational"?) priorities, not long term
"strategical" goals, about which I was talking about. In a way, those say
how we want to go (promoting religion, RL communities, promoting
participation and so on) but not saying where.

I thank you for posting those tho, as maybe they can also add to the
discussion.

Vale,

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus

Founder of Gens Constantinia
Former Tribunus Plebis (MMDCCLVIII a. U. c.)
Aedilis Urbis Iterum


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes from the Winter Wonderland of New York City! A foot of
snow and still falling! Aaaah, New York in the winter: the sound of
snowblowers, the absence of traffic, cross-country skiers on Second
Avenue...

Hodie est pridie Idus Februarius; haec dies nefastus est.

"The youths upon hearing these words withdrew to one side, and after a
short conference together returned to give their answer; and the
eldest17 on behalf of them all spoke as follows: 'If we were free and
sole masters of our own decisions, Tullius, and you had given us the
opportunity to deliberate concerning the combat with our cousins, we
should without further delay have given your our thoughts upon it. But
since our father is still living, without whose advice we do not think
it proper to say or do the least thing, we ask you to wait a short
time for our answer till we have talked with him.' Tullius having
commended their filial devotion and told them to do as they proposed,
they went home to their father. And acquainting him with the proposals
of Fufetius and with what Tullius had said to them and, last of all,
with their own answer, they desired his advice. And he answered and
said: 'But indeed this is dutiful conduct on your part, my sons, when
you live for your father and do nothing without my advice. But it is
time for you to show that you yourselves now have discretion in such
matters at least. Assume, therefore, that my life is now over, and let
me know what you yourselves would have chosen to do if you had
deliberated without your father upon your own affairs.' And the
eldest answered him thus: 'Father, we would have accepted this combat
for the supremacy and would have been ready to suffer whatever should
be the will of Heaven; for we had rather be dead than to live unworthy
both of you and of our ancestors. As for the bond of kinship with our
cousins, we shall not be the first to break it, but since it has
already been broken by fate, we shall acquiesce therein. For if the
Curiatii esteem kinship less than honour, the Horatii also will not
value the ties of blood more highly than valour.' Their father, upon
learning their disposition, rejoiced exceedingly, and lifting his
hands to Heaven, said he rendered thanks to the gods for having given
him noble sons. Then, throwing his arms about each in turn and giving
the tenderest of embraces and kisses, he said: 'You have my opinion
also, my brave sons. Go, then, to Tullius and give him the answer that
is both dutiful and honourable.' The youths went away pleased with
the exhortation of their father, and going to the king, they accepted
the combat; and he, after assembling the senate and sounding the
praises of the youths, sent ambassadors to the Alban to inform him
that the Romans accepted his proposal and would offer the Horatii to
fight for the sovereignty." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus 3.17


"Muse, sing of Artemis, sister of the Far-shooter, the virgin who
delights in arrows, who was fostered with Apollo. She waters her
horses from Meles deep in reeds, and swiftly drives her all-golden
chariot through Smyrna to vine-clad Claros where Apollo, god of the
silver bow, sits waiting for the far-shooting goddess who delights in
arrows." - Homer, Hymn to Artemis 9 II.1-6

"I sing of Artemis, whose shafts are of gold, who cheers on the
hounds, the pure maiden, shooter of stags, who delights in archery,
own sister to Apollo with the golden sword. Over the shadowy hills and
windy peaks she draws her golden bow, rejoicing in the chase, and
sends out grievous shafts. The tops of the high mountains tremble and
the tangled wood echoes awesomely with the outcry of beasts:
earthquakes and the sea also where fishes shoal. But the goddess with
a bold heart turns every way destroying the race of wild beasts: and
when she is satisfied and has cheered her heart, this huntress who
delights in arrows slackens her supple bow and goes to the great house
of her dear brother Phoebus Apollo, to the rich land of Delphi, there
to order the lovely dance of the Muses and Graces. There she hangs up
her curved bow and her arrows, and heads and leads the dances,
gracefully arrayed, while all they utter their heavenly voice, singing
how neat-ankled Leto bare children supreme among the immortals both in
thought and in deed." - Homer, Hymn to Artemis 27 II.1-20

In ancient Greece, this day was held in honor of the goddess Artemis.
Artemis (as well as her twin brother, Apollo) was the daughter of the
goddess Leto and Zeus. Now, Hera wasn't too happy about her husband
Zeus messing around on her like that, and sent all sorts of horrible
things after Leto, like a gadfly and a serpent named Python. She also
made a decree that Leto could not be allowed to rest anywhere on solid
ground. Eventually, Leto made it to the island of Delos (which wasn't
called Delos) and could rest there (as it escaped Hera's decree that
Leto couldn't rest on solid ground, it was a floating island). But
even there, Hera forbid Ilythia, the goddess of childbirth, to come to
her aid. Eventually, the gods bribed Hera with a beautiful necklace,
and Eilithia went to Leto. Some stories say that Artemis, the first
born, was a relatively easy birth, but her brother definitely wasn't.
And so immediatly after she was born, Artemis became her mother's
midwife and after many painful hours brought her brother into the
world. So, since then, Artemis has been considered a protectress of
childbirth.

Even though Artemis could love most intensely, she could also be very
cold and unforgiving. This is a very god-like trait that every god and
goddess (barring Hestia) has, at some point, displayed. One well-known
story of her chilly personality has to do with the hunter Actaeon.
Artemis had just had a long day of hunting, and was sweaty and gross,
and ready for a nice bath. This was deep in the woods in a sacred
pool, and it wasn't very likely that anyone would come upon her. But
people of Actaeon's family had a history of bad luck, and he did just
that. Now, every man knows that if you see a naked goddess (unless it
is Aphrodite, or she invites you to see her naked) you run away, and
PRAY that she doesn't notice. But either Actaeon wasn't very bright or
he was so enraptured by her beauty that he didn't move. What he did
was stare. Bad idea. Artemis heard him, turned around, and in fury
threw water at him. As the the droplets hit him, he was transformed
into a stag. At that, Artemis whistled for his hounds, and they ripped
their unfortunate master apart.

Then there's Orion. Artemis and Orion began to develope a
relationship, but Orion was already involved with Eos. Apollo got
worried about the chastity of his sister, and started worrying that
Artemis would be as taken in as Eos. That doesn't really appear to be
the case, but Apollo was jealous, so he went and arranged with Gaia to
send an enormous scorpion after him. Now, some say that this animal
was just too much for Orion and killed him (and that Artemis was
furious at Apollo for a while, but relented when Apollo helped her
hang Orion in the sky). Another version says that Orion ran away from
the scorpion - or rather, swam away to Eos' island, hoping that the
goddess of Dawn would protect him. But then Apollo told his sister
that the figure bobbing in the sea was a villain who had just seduced
one of her priestesses. Then he challenged her to hit the bobbing
object. She did, and killed her friend unknowingly. She tried to get
Asclepius to revive him, but Zeus destroyed him before he got the
chance. And so ended Artemis' only romance before it could begin.

Among the epithets of Artemis are: Calliste ("most beautiful"),
Caryatis, Chryasor ("golden"), Eucleia ("well-named"), Phosphoros
("shimmering"), Peitho ("persuasive") and Partheneia ("virginal").

In Rome, Artemis was known as Diana.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES


Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Homer, Artemis
(http://www.paleothea.com/SortaSingles/Artemis.html)

Salvete Omnes:

I saw a recent question on taxation from a provisional citizen or
returning citizen, and perhaps its either not enough or too much
coffee, but I am not seeing it now. Something about citizen standing
related to taxpayment.

Anyway, if the citizen has not found his answer, I would like him to
please write me and I'll address his queries.

Valete
Pompeia

Salve Cato, salvete omnes

Oh dear! A foot of snow in New York! Whatever you get, we seem to get here
about 3 weeks later in England. We have just had 4 weeks of incredibly cold
weather (and yes, I have a cold to prove it). At the moment it's pouring
with rain and the temperature has gone up to just above freezing. Don't tell
me it's going to get colder again!!

Oh yes, and to top it all, gas and electricity prices are now due to rise
20%. :-(

Valete omnes!

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of gaiusequitiuscato
Sent: 12 February 2006 16:15
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] prid. Id. Feb.



OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes from the Winter Wonderland of New York City! A foot of
snow and still falling! Aaaah, New York in the winter: the sound of
snowblowers, the absence of traffic, cross-country skiers on Second
Avenue...

Hodie est pridie Idus Februarius; haec dies nefastus est.

"The youths upon hearing these words withdrew to one side, and after a
short conference together returned to give their answer; and the
eldest17 on behalf of them all spoke as follows: 'If we were free and
sole masters of our own decisions, Tullius, and you had given us the
opportunity to deliberate concerning the combat with our cousins, we
should without further delay have given your our thoughts upon it. But
since our father is still living, without whose advice we do not think
it proper to say or do the least thing, we ask you to wait a short
time for our answer till we have talked with him.' Tullius having
commended their filial devotion and told them to do as they proposed,
they went home to their father. And acquainting him with the proposals
of Fufetius and with what Tullius had said to them and, last of all,
with their own answer, they desired his advice. And he answered and
said: 'But indeed this is dutiful conduct on your part, my sons, when
you live for your father and do nothing without my advice. But it is
time for you to show that you yourselves now have discretion in such
matters at least. Assume, therefore, that my life is now over, and let
me know what you yourselves would have chosen to do if you had
deliberated without your father upon your own affairs.' And the
eldest answered him thus: 'Father, we would have accepted this combat
for the supremacy and would have been ready to suffer whatever should
be the will of Heaven; for we had rather be dead than to live unworthy
both of you and of our ancestors. As for the bond of kinship with our
cousins, we shall not be the first to break it, but since it has
already been broken by fate, we shall acquiesce therein. For if the
Curiatii esteem kinship less than honour, the Horatii also will not
value the ties of blood more highly than valour.' Their father, upon
learning their disposition, rejoiced exceedingly, and lifting his
hands to Heaven, said he rendered thanks to the gods for having given
him noble sons. Then, throwing his arms about each in turn and giving
the tenderest of embraces and kisses, he said: 'You have my opinion
also, my brave sons. Go, then, to Tullius and give him the answer that
is both dutiful and honourable.' The youths went away pleased with
the exhortation of their father, and going to the king, they accepted
the combat; and he, after assembling the senate and sounding the
praises of the youths, sent ambassadors to the Alban to inform him
that the Romans accepted his proposal and would offer the Horatii to
fight for the sovereignty." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus 3.17


"Muse, sing of Artemis, sister of the Far-shooter, the virgin who
delights in arrows, who was fostered with Apollo. She waters her
horses from Meles deep in reeds, and swiftly drives her all-golden
chariot through Smyrna to vine-clad Claros where Apollo, god of the
silver bow, sits waiting for the far-shooting goddess who delights in
arrows." - Homer, Hymn to Artemis 9 II.1-6

"I sing of Artemis, whose shafts are of gold, who cheers on the
hounds, the pure maiden, shooter of stags, who delights in archery,
own sister to Apollo with the golden sword. Over the shadowy hills and
windy peaks she draws her golden bow, rejoicing in the chase, and
sends out grievous shafts. The tops of the high mountains tremble and
the tangled wood echoes awesomely with the outcry of beasts:
earthquakes and the sea also where fishes shoal. But the goddess with
a bold heart turns every way destroying the race of wild beasts: and
when she is satisfied and has cheered her heart, this huntress who
delights in arrows slackens her supple bow and goes to the great house
of her dear brother Phoebus Apollo, to the rich land of Delphi, there
to order the lovely dance of the Muses and Graces. There she hangs up
her curved bow and her arrows, and heads and leads the dances,
gracefully arrayed, while all they utter their heavenly voice, singing
how neat-ankled Leto bare children supreme among the immortals both in
thought and in deed." - Homer, Hymn to Artemis 27 II.1-20

In ancient Greece, this day was held in honor of the goddess Artemis.
Artemis (as well as her twin brother, Apollo) was the daughter of the
goddess Leto and Zeus. Now, Hera wasn't too happy about her husband
Zeus messing around on her like that, and sent all sorts of horrible
things after Leto, like a gadfly and a serpent named Python. She also
made a decree that Leto could not be allowed to rest anywhere on solid
ground. Eventually, Leto made it to the island of Delos (which wasn't
called Delos) and could rest there (as it escaped Hera's decree that
Leto couldn't rest on solid ground, it was a floating island). But
even there, Hera forbid Ilythia, the goddess of childbirth, to come to
her aid. Eventually, the gods bribed Hera with a beautiful necklace,
and Eilithia went to Leto. Some stories say that Artemis, the first
born, was a relatively easy birth, but her brother definitely wasn't.
And so immediatly after she was born, Artemis became her mother's
midwife and after many painful hours brought her brother into the
world. So, since then, Artemis has been considered a protectress of
childbirth.

Even though Artemis could love most intensely, she could also be very
cold and unforgiving. This is a very god-like trait that every god and
goddess (barring Hestia) has, at some point, displayed. One well-known
story of her chilly personality has to do with the hunter Actaeon.
Artemis had just had a long day of hunting, and was sweaty and gross,
and ready for a nice bath. This was deep in the woods in a sacred
pool, and it wasn't very likely that anyone would come upon her. But
people of Actaeon's family had a history of bad luck, and he did just
that. Now, every man knows that if you see a naked goddess (unless it
is Aphrodite, or she invites you to see her naked) you run away, and
PRAY that she doesn't notice. But either Actaeon wasn't very bright or
he was so enraptured by her beauty that he didn't move. What he did
was stare. Bad idea. Artemis heard him, turned around, and in fury
threw water at him. As the the droplets hit him, he was transformed
into a stag. At that, Artemis whistled for his hounds, and they ripped
their unfortunate master apart.

Then there's Orion. Artemis and Orion began to develope a
relationship, but Orion was already involved with Eos. Apollo got
worried about the chastity of his sister, and started worrying that
Artemis would be as taken in as Eos. That doesn't really appear to be
the case, but Apollo was jealous, so he went and arranged with Gaia to
send an enormous scorpion after him. Now, some say that this animal
was just too much for Orion and killed him (and that Artemis was
furious at Apollo for a while, but relented when Apollo helped her
hang Orion in the sky). Another version says that Orion ran away from
the scorpion - or rather, swam away to Eos' island, hoping that the
goddess of Dawn would protect him. But then Apollo told his sister
that the figure bobbing in the sea was a villain who had just seduced
one of her priestesses. Then he challenged her to hit the bobbing
object. She did, and killed her friend unknowingly. She tried to get
Asclepius to revive him, but Zeus destroyed him before he got the
chance. And so ended Artemis' only romance before it could begin.

Among the epithets of Artemis are: Calliste ("most beautiful"),
Caryatis, Chryasor ("golden"), Eucleia ("well-named"), Phosphoros
("shimmering"), Peitho ("persuasive") and Partheneia ("virginal").

In Rome, Artemis was known as Diana.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES


Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Homer, Artemis
(http://www.paleothea.com/SortaSingles/Artemis.html)







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes:

As a very new citizen, I felt it might be
helpful to provide my perspective on Constaninus's
post.

I must admit that I have been...dismayed...at
the nature of the general forum, where I had hoped to
learn something new about Roman culture. Instead, my inbox
is inundated daily with edicta from various magistrates,
mostly appointing subordinates. I have noted that there was
an election recently, but finding any information on how to
vote (or, quite honestly, *why* to vote) seems to involve
a degree of effort more than I care to spend. Likewise, I've
seen some vague references to a "citizenship test" but an explanation
of that doesn't appear to be particularly accessible either.

I came here for several basic reasons. One
was to find serious information on Roman religion beyond the
usual folktales one gets in grammar-school history class and
by reading the Metamorphoses. The Religio web sites *are* useful
there, although (a) several links are broken and ultimately (b)
I didn't need to become a citizen to access them.

Likewise, I am a Latinist and I suppose there may yet be useful
information to be had at the Latin sodalitas, which I admit I have not
yet explored. But again, that is one potential source among many out
there in cyberspace.

I am also a long-time historical recreator (in the SCA) and had
some interest in that, but I wonder how much of it is actually
going on.

Finally, I must reply to Galerius. There is a difference between
forthrightness and insult. I was not offended, as you seem to be,
by Constantinus's post, which appeared to me to express his sadness
that something quite dear to him had not flowered as he had hoped.
Stifling honest debate on important issues is something that is
happening in the Real World of the USA right now, with conservative
zealots asserting that questioning the Administration's policies is
a treasonous act, tantamount to aiding and abetting terrorists. I had
not expected such an attitude here.

Respectfully,
A. Tullius Severus

Gaius Fabius Buteo Domitio Constantino Fusco salutem dicit

It is a good thing when our citizens take time to reflect on the role of
Nova Roma. The role it plays in their own lives, and within the greater
context as a Roman community. Let me respond to your comments below:

On 2/11/06, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus <dom.con.fus@...> wrote:
>
> [cut for space]
>
> Over the last months, I've had this growing feeling of detachment from
> the whole Nova Rom a concept and I will explain you why: I simply don't
> think Nova Roma serves any other purpose than its own self preserving,
> which is no purpose great enough to devote my not unlimited time and
> energies to.


Modianus: Hopefully this debate will change your feelings of involvement.

It occurred to me that for defining Nova Roma is generally easier to
> say what it is not, than what it is: it is not a nation, it is not an
> archeological group, it is not a study group, it is not a pressure or
> lobbying group for heritage or archeological preservation, it is not a
> religious group, it is not a discussion group, it is not a role
> playing game.


Modianus: To some it is a role playing game, and a study/knowledge source,
and a preservation society, and a religious group.

Peraphs, what describes better Nova Roma as it is now is a virtual
> community which only practical purpose is having a yearly and
> convoluted and extremely complex election of its own moderators (in a
> broad meaning of the word), while having mostly discussions in the in
> between intervals to give the impression we are actually doing
> something. Yes, there is the occasional "academic" discussion (usually
> monopolized by one or two individuals gifted with an unusual excess of
> time, words and sense of self-importance), but all in all it seems to
> me they are the exceptions, rather than the rule.


Modianus: It does seem to be like this, but this assessement is not
completely fair.

I think, Nova Roma, if ever had it, lost its way. I'm not even being
> extremely original in saying this, as many have said that before me,
> and probably other will do after me. If the purpose was really
> creating one day a RL nation, i think by now we all know how
> ridiculous the thing is.


Modianus: Having a real nation with jurisdictional and defined boundaries
is not likely anytime soon, I agree with you there. Developing a culture,
and a community -- that it has done.

If it was to revive the Religio Romana, I think it not only didn't add
> much to the general worldwide pagan revival movement (said without
> offense, I just can't find a better term to define it), but generally
> the whole subject has substantially fallen in the background in the
> every day Nova Roma life.


Modianus: This is surely true. When Nova Roma allowed itself to attract
people other than Roman "Pagans" it opened up diversity, but sacrificed some
of its "strength" and driving force within the "Pagan Movement." However,
the Religio still remains a priority of Nova Roma.

The developement towards a RL association that had started to take
> place a couple of years ago, at least in Europe,and that I had looked
> upon with great favor has substantially aborted (sometimes taken over
> by parallel national projects towards which I have mixed feelings).


Modianus: How so? I have not noticed an aborted effort to have "real
world" events.

With the exception of Madrid and Rome, I've heard of no other RL
> community being created, and of those two, at least Rome (maybe my
> fault in this, I do not know) is struggling. The yearly European
> conventa are indeed a funny way to spend a week, but they do not
> rapresent, in my opinion, anything more than a peculiar way to spend a
> summer week. It's true I've mostly been absent from those, but I've
> not seen anything practical, not even a vague project, coming out from
> those, anything that would help creating a feeling of being part of
> something going anywhere rather than a more or less numerous group of
> individuals sharing a more or less vague sense of fascination from a
> 2000 years old reality. As a Tribunus, I subscribed to all the
> european and several non-european provincial mailing lists and with
> the exception of Spain (who I think it's slowing down too, but that's
> just a perception) and Italy, they seem pretty much comatose as well.


Modianus: I think its a matter of perspective. Last year at Elysium
Gathering (a Pagan festival I sponor) we saw three Roman Rituals conducted
by Metellus Pius, Hadrianus, and myself. Also, last year I had an
opportunity to meet with Octavius Germanicus and Piscinus on a seperate
occasion to discuss the Religio and exchange thoughts. Things take time,
patience, and persistance.

The practical projects on the field remained projects: even the MM
> project, as I can percieve it, has basically stalled, and no other
> project has been brought forward. Obviously, we do not have the
> economical resources, and I do not see a way to gather them, to do
> anything really practical. Serapio had the brilliant, indeed
> brilliant, idea of the literary contest, but that also seemed more
> like the occasional lightning in an otherwise darkly clouded night.


Modianus: It is up to this years magistrates to keep this going.

In my year as a Tribunus I've learned that 90% of the energies of the
> (not quite surprisingly less and less) active members are spent in
> drafting elaborate and substantially void of any practical RL effect
> laws, edicts and whatever, arguing about susch intellectual creatures,
> discussing about what this or that person as done or hasn't done (but
> more correctly, said or not said, as most have lost the perception of
> the difference of DOING and SAYING, and actually equating having
> written a mail as actually having DONE something).


Modianus: I agree. There are too many laws. Not enough practical
"stuff." This needs to change. It is something that I realize, and hope to
make a difference about.

If Nova Roma would be disbanded today, all that would be left is an
> archive of several thousands of emails, a Tabularium with several
> hundreds of laws and edicts ruling a community of a couple of hundreds
> of active people and what else? And do you see this changing in the
> next year or two? I do not.


Modianus: This would not be the case for me. I would carry within myself a
lot of fond memories of people, NOT e-mails, but people. I have had many
conversations on the phone and in person with people I have grown to
respect, love, cherish, and value. I consider many within Nova Roma like
true family, and if this was all gone a part of me would go with it.
Community building is the most important element of Nova Roma. Everything
else comes from this Community building. We are not just individuals, we
are parts that make a whole.

The truth is that for every single possible function of Nova Roma
> there are other, better, alternatives: letting aside the utopistic
> micronational project, for the Religio (which, incidentally, seems to
> be more of an individual rytes thing than anything else, probably
> because it's practically impossible to celebrate the great public
> celebrations) there are many smaller, local, but RL "circles" (again,
> said without offense). For re-constructionism, many more organized and
> rl group (that Nova Roma "sponsors", which practically means "oh, we
> want to let you know that we think you are so cool"), for academic
> discussions, better rl and online venues.


Modianus: All projects that Nova Roma would sponsor would be an extension
of Nova Roma. This, I do not see, as a bad thing.

What's our original or specific trait? And most especially, what do we
> want to achieve? Untill we do no thave a list, possibly in a
> hierachical graduation, of at least potentially achievable goals, we
> shall nevr know in which direction we must move. Right now our goals
> are vague, general, some of them utopistic, so much that if you'd ask
> to 10 nova roman what is nova roma about, i think you'd get at least
> 8, if not 10, different answers. Some might consider this as a good
> thing, a show of vitality and difference, I think that's a show of
> confusion an lack of direction which essentially leave us with nowhere
> to go and bring us to be stuck in an infinite talk about our
> "institutions" and "laws" and little more.


Modianus: What we hope to achieve is a Roman Community, and to maintain
that Community within the context of a Pax Deorum; peace of the Gods.

We have 200 more or less active members, and probably about (more, if
> we count the senate) 50 of them are busy, in various degrees
> (magistrates, scribae, cohortes, consultants and so on and so forth),
> in "governing" the others. Not even the most bureocratic nation of all
> time had 1 governing person for every 3 governed. The "governing"
> activity is sucking up almost all the energies, thoughts, time of the
> association (it's enough to check the last 3 months of posts on the
> mailing list.. I'd say that 80% to 90% of the post are "legislative"
> and "governing" matters and comments about those), and that, long from
> being considered pathological, has became so normal that a debate of
> what is Nova Roma, what is its purpose, "where it is going and how to
> go there" debate has disappeared totally after the last, weak,
> appearance of maybe a couple of years ago.


Modianus: I agree with this. Nova Roma needs to develop in such a way that
it stops "re-inventing" itself. Too many laws, and too much legislating.

We apparently forgot that governing is not a goal, but a mean to DO
> something.. running a country, in case of nations, or achieving the
> original or intervened objectives, for an association. But what are
> our practical objectives at this point?
>
> Modianus: I can see some truth in this statement.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

Many thanks to Censor Gnaeus Equitius Marinus for posting the Senatus
Consultum establishing the priorities of Nova Roma. It is correct that this
was my platform when I was running for Consul. I am very supportive of
these priorities. What I would like to do now is solicit and ask the
citizens of Nova Roma ideas in how to fully implement these priorities. I
will be working with my colleague, Pompeia Minucia Strabo, and my staff in
formulating a strategy. However, I would like to know of any ideas or
suggestions the citizens have.

Here are the priorities:

I. The Religio Romana; it's promotion, preservation, protection, and
diffusion throughout the communities of Nova Roma.

II. Establishment of a Nova Roma Endowment and its long term growth.

III. Sustaining support of existing projects, including the publication
of the Eagle, the Aedilian Fund for the Magna Mater Project, the
Scholarship Fund, and the Land Fund.

IV. Outreach, recruitment and retention of citizens, including fostering
interest in the activities of the Sodalities.

V. Promotion of Local Group activities.

VI. Encouraging citizens to become involved in the work of government.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul

On 2/12/06, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
>
> http://novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2004-08-31-results.html
>
> === Citation Begins ====
>
> VI. The Senate adopts the Senatus Consultum establishing priorities for
> Nova Roma and their precedences.
>
> Senatus Consultum establishing priorities for Nova Roma
>
> PRIORITIES FOR NOVA ROMA IN ORDER OF PRECEDENCE
>
> The Senate finds that the following items are all priorities for Nova
> Roma. They are hereby established as such, in order of precedence. This
> precedence shall not be interpreted to indicate that any item is
> unimportant. All are priorities. The sole reason for assigning
> precedence is to better focus resources and effort.
>
> I. The Religio Romana; it's promotion, preservation, protection, and
> diffusion throughout the communities of Nova Roma.
>
> II. Establishment of a Nova Roma Endowment and its long term growth.
>
> III. Sustaining support of existing projects, including the publication
> of the Eagle, the Aedilian Fund for the Magna Mater Project, the
> Scholarship Fund, and the Land Fund.
>
> IV. Outreach, recruitment and retention of citizens, including fostering
> interest in the activities of the Sodalities.
>
> V. Promotion of Local Group activities.
>
> VI. Encouraging citizens to become involved in the work of government
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

Please findthereafter an excerpt from an article you will find at:
www.newswise.com/articles/view/517932/?sc=rsln
----------------
Newswise - Every year on February 14th, candy, flowers, and heart-shaped "I
love you" cards are sent to loved ones throughout the world to celebrate
Valentine's Day. But where do all these holiday practices come from? The
ancient Chinese and Egyptians, for example, exchanged messages of love
during celebrations of the new year or other occasions. Love - and
expressions of love - were also very much a part of what was the Roman
Empire. But Professor Judith Hallett from the University of Maryland's
Classics Department says March - not February - was reserved for lovers.
Roman Holidays
"In ancient Rome, February 14 was the second day of the Parentalia, an
annual festival for honoring the dead," says Hallett. During this festival
mourners would visit the tombs of their lost family members, and place a
variety of sacrificial offerings, such as flowers, grain, and wine on the
graves of deceased parents.
Hallett says, "Love celebrations did not show up on the ancient Roman
calendar until March 1, which was sacred to Juno, goddess of marriage, and
on that day husbands would pray for the health of their wives and give them
presents, and wives would dress up."
Romans liked to use poems as one way to express their love. Prof. Hallett
offers this missive from the poet Catullus (ca. 55 BCE) to his married
lover:
Let's live, my Lesbia, and let's make love
And let us value all the gossip of
Prudent old men at pennies. When the sun
Sets he can rise again; when we have done
For good and all with our one little light
We sleep forever in one dawnless night.
Give me a thousand kisses, then a hundred,
Another thousand, then a second hundred,
Then still another thousand, then a hundred,
Then, when our number's countless, then, my dear,
Scramble the abacus! So we won't fear
The evil eye of hate, for no one bad
Must know how many kisses we have had.
- translation by Dorothea Wender (1934-2003)
-------------

Optime Vale,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus sodalis sodalitatis Latinitatis A. Tullio Severo salutem dicit:

>>> Likewise, I am a Latinist and I suppose there may yet be useful

information to be had at the Latin sodalitas, which I admit I have not
yet explored. But again, that is one potential source among many out
there in cyberspace. <<<

Because of my incomplete English I don't understand wheter you didn't explore the Latin sodalitas or didn't explore that there is useful information there. In the first case, there is the URL of our Sodalitas Latinitatis:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/

There you will be most wellcome!

In the second case, you have to ask questions there and you will see if there is any useful information available at our sodalitas.

Vale quam optime, collega Latinista!




Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Provincial Sacerdos
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae Senior
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

F. Galerius Aurelianus flamen Cerialis S.P.D.

At the end of the Parentalia, the entire family would gather at the home of
the paterfamilias for the celebration of Cara Cognatio to resolve the
differences and problems that had separated family members in the previous year. All
animosities were put to rest and a spirit of renewed peace and accommodation
was made in the family. A banquet would follow with members wearing wreaths of
myrtle, laurel, and rosemary for purification and peace. All of Nova Roma
should follow this example letting all private animosities cease and be happy
ourselves within our families and clans during the month of purification as we
give sacrifice and prayers to our honored dead and celebrate the Lupercalia.

Vadete in pacem Cereri.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus C. Livio Crasso salutem dicit:

>>> ...If every magistrate becomes a life time member of the Senate, then (because of the small number of people involved in Nova Roma at present), are we going to end up with an enormously large Senate making thousands of laws for only a tiny number of people to follow? Perhaps a way around is to only be allowed a Senatorial position for

a period of a few years, after which one has to run for an office again... <<<

In practice Senatores who don't do their job enough studiously, show bad conduct, or have anything derogatory usually are removed from the Senatus by the Censores. This happened in many cases, so we have perhaps two Senatores who were original members of the Senatus. And I have to add that every magistrate doesn't become Senator: only those of the highest ranks: Consules, Praetores as usual.

Furthermore we have a *law* which establishes that the maximum nuber of the Senatus cannot be larger than the 15% of the taxpayer citizens (not of the whole citizenry!). So this is why laws are needed: to regulate such questions in our association which could cause problems.

Without regulations there is no association; however it's true that it mustn't be an end in itself to make regulations.

Vale!



Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.

Consul Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus wisely said: "Things take time,
patience, and persistance."


I'll add that in so doing we are afforded an opportunity to develop
ourselves in Roman virutues.

The final steps for producing our new sestertius are in progress now.
Perhaps our *next* issue should portray Patientia.

optime valete!

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus C. Cassio Pisoni salutem:

>>>...Tribvnvs Domitivs Constantinvs Fvscvs!<<<

Salve, Gai Cassi: you are welcome in our community! Firstly, please let me note that there is a frequent mistake that one uses minuscule "v" in place of minuscule "u" which is a nonexistent practice: capital "U" can be wrote as captal "V" but minuscule "v" cannot stand in place of minuscule "u": so one can write "tribunus" or "TRIBVNVS" and "TIBUNUS". Minuscule "u" however can be stand in place of minuscule "v": so one can write "salve" and "salue".

Please forgive me that I start our correspondence with corrections: this is just a friendly explanation on Latin orthography. Many write such like "tribvnvs" because beleive Romans used "v" when we write "u". This is simply not true: Romans (by some of thier coursive writing methods at least) used *only* "V" as maiuscule and *only* "u" as minuscule: so they would write "uulcanus" or "VVLCANVS". Renaissance practice intruduced the distinction of u-v as well as i-j. Today we can follow both the Roman-medieval practice and the renaissance practice too -- but the most general and standard practice is the combination of both: one makes distinction between u-v and U-V (renaissance) but uses only "i" (ancient).

>>> I'm a finnish citizen and I'm proud of that, I live in province of Hispania and I'm proud of that too. To be a member of Nova Roma makes me feel ROMAN and I'm VERY proud of that!!! <<<

So we are in the same family of the Finno-Ugric language: I am Hungarian: and I am also very proud to be in a community where I am no more the only one who feels to be Roman -- I was sad before exploring NR as I beleived I am alone with that feeling.

>>> At last: Rome was not built in a day!!! <<<

This is said wisely! Nova Roma is only 8 years: she is a baby still, but I think, a very promising one :-)

Vale!


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cn. Lentulus: Proconsuli Caesari et Sex. Pontio: sal.:

>>> [2] "Italia Provincia" does seem somewhat anomalous. As Italia is the "fons et origo" of Romanitas itself - and therefore by extension of Nova Roma, if Nova Roma is the resurrected Rome - how can it be a province of itself? If Nova Roma is Roma resurgens, from where does its 'resurgens' come if not from Rome? And Rome is Italy. To call Italia something other than Provincia would give rise to problems of nomenclature, perhaps, but it's certainly worth following up Caesar's comment.<<<

I agree totally and wholeheartedly! Italia must be called simply Italia without any complementary appellation as "provincia" or "regio" or territorium" etc. Italia really deserves it as well as the historical authenticity.

But in this case, Italia cannot have Propraetor or Proconsul! The nomenclature of the government of Italia also has to be modified: perhaps to "Praefectus Italiae" or "Praefectus Urbi", with the additional element that "pro consule" or "pro praetore" according to what magistrate have held the governor formerly.

Let us honour Rome, Italy and the history with this emendation! I am not Italian but I would be far from envying this honour from Italia!

Vivat Italia Romana!




Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve
NR is massively top heavy to the point of rediculesness...
Vale
Quintus Sertorius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus" <cn_corn_lent@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An invite to a debate


> Cn. Cornelius Lentulus C. Livio Crasso salutem dicit:
>
> >>> ...If every magistrate becomes a life time member of the Senate, then
> (because of the small number of people involved in Nova Roma at present),
> are we going to end up with an enormously large Senate making thousands of
> laws for only a tiny number of people to follow? Perhaps a way around is
> to only be allowed a Senatorial position for
> a period of a few years, after which one has to run for an office again...
> <<<
>
> In practice Senatores who don't do their job enough studiously, show bad
> conduct, or have anything derogatory usually are removed from the Senatus
> by the Censores. This happened in many cases, so we have perhaps two
> Senatores who were original members of the Senatus. And I have to add that
> every magistrate doesn't become Senator: only those of the highest ranks:
> Consules, Praetores as usual.
>
> Furthermore we have a *law* which establishes that the maximum nuber of
> the Senatus cannot be larger than the 15% of the taxpayer citizens (not of
> the whole citizenry!). So this is why laws are needed: to regulate such
> questions in our association which could cause problems.
>
> Without regulations there is no association; however it's true that it
> mustn't be an end in itself to make regulations.
>
> Vale!
>
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> Q U A E S T O R
> -------------------------------
> Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
> Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
> Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
> Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
> -------------------------------
> Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi, antispam, antivirus, POP3
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

My opinion is that within the context of Nova Roma we are about an ideal,
and essential character, and not so much a geographical location. Surely,
the physical area of Rome is of extreme importance to us. However, we are
NOT welcome to use the location Rome as we would. Nor is the area within
the city of Rome sacred anylonger. It has been profaned a long time ago.
In light of this, I view Nova Roma a sort of Roman Diaspora.

In ancient times Italia would not be considered a province. Its status was
different. Within Nova Roma, I view Italia as any other province -- and so
doesn't our constitution. The "resurgens" that is Nova Roma is the heritage
and virtues of Rome, and the Gods of Rome. Do the Gods show more favor on
those within the city, or to those who wish to establish a Pax Deorum
wherever they may reside? Not totally sure, Nova Roma historians will be
able to speculate that in years to come.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul

On 2/12/06, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>
> Cn. Lentulus: Proconsuli Caesari et Sex. Pontio: sal.:
>
> >>> [2] "Italia Provincia" does seem somewhat anomalous. As Italia is
> the "fons et origo" of Romanitas itself - and therefore by extension of Nova
> Roma, if Nova Roma is the resurrected Rome - how can it be a province of
> itself? If Nova Roma is Roma resurgens, from where does its 'resurgens' come
> if not from Rome? And Rome is Italy. To call Italia something other than
> Provincia would give rise to problems of nomenclature, perhaps, but it's
> certainly worth following up Caesar's comment.<<<
>
> I agree totally and wholeheartedly! Italia must be called simply Italia
> without any complementary appellation as "provincia" or "regio" or
> territorium" etc. Italia really deserves it as well as the historical
> authenticity.
>
> But in this case, Italia cannot have Propraetor or Proconsul! The
> nomenclature of the government of Italia also has to be modified: perhaps to
> "Praefectus Italiae" or "Praefectus Urbi", with the additional element that
> "pro consule" or "pro praetore" according to what magistrate have held the
> governor formerly.
>
> Let us honour Rome, Italy and the history with this emendation! I am not
> Italian but I would be far from envying this honour from Italia!
>
> Vivat Italia Romana!
>
>
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> Q U A E S T O R


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

P.S.: I would recall to the Consules and the Illustri Senatores that
the title "Provincia" applied to Italia is a terrible historical
error. Rome never called Italy (the mother land) easily "Provincia".
Maybe we could discuss about it.

Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Senator et ProConsul Italiae


- I will have to agree with Apulus on this , not because I am Italian. i am
Half Italian / Half German. I have lived in many places all over the world
and while I have had many favourite places which I can remember fondly it
has come to a point where I realise I really do not have a place to call
home anymore. Home is where I lay my head for as long as that is. So i have
no personal gain by stating that one place should be called the motherland
over any other and who is a provincia and who is not.
I know NR was formed in USA. I know NR largest group is in USA. But Roma
is in Italy the origin of where The romans formed an empire. The empire that
we as nova romans seek to emulate. as stated before what is nova roma , I
believe that is means something differant to each person. What is NR trying
to achieve - that what each and everyone is interested in on the whole. be
it roman religion , law, lifestyle, military, food,music, the list goes on.
thats NR. Thats what being in NR is all about. Where did all this come from?
A group of hills on the side of a river called the Tiber. The place is
called Roma. Is Italy a provincia? Is the origin not the original? IS ones
birthplace not where they originally came from? it shouldnt matter if there
was one only person in Italy and wether that person was active or not. italy
shold NOT be a privincia but the heart of the empire.

well thats my 2 denarii - Octavianus

_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

Salve Donmiti Constantini Fusce,

Thank you for your response!

"I might have done less than
others over the last 6 years, but I thik I do not have to prove I've
done
more than many as well, but I'm sure that was not your intention, was
it?)

You are right, that was not my intention since I have seen you put your
time effort and heart into NR and whether or not citizens have agreed
or disagreed with your points, I doubt that any of them will question
the time and dedication you put into NR.


Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

The suggestion that I wish to make is not a reflection of my displeasure with
the current magistrates, many of whom I have a high regard and respect for
and wish them much success. However, Nova Roma needs an overall of our
Constitution and by-laws as soon as possible. The bottom-line is that Nova Roma is
essentially an on-line organization that has only a limited number of members.
Some of those members actively participate in one aspect or list of the
organization but not all or even most of the associated lists.

There is no real world law that says we cannot make changes that would
streamline our rules and drop a number of redundant (some would say "useless")
positions and begin the process of moving our organization into an active and
physical rather than an electronic part of our lives. If the Internet had existed
in the 1960s many organizations in historical reenactment and research would
still be on the Internet exclusively for the same reason that Nova Roma is
almost exclusively an electronic organization.

The citizens who responded to the census make up the active portion of our
organization and, in my opinion, they should decide whether or not to change
Nova Roma or keep it going the way it currently exists and operates. We should
simply put some faith in those past and present magistrates, priests & Senators
by having a referendum to elect a committee to rewrite the Constitution and
reorganize the by-laws to a manageable level. After we elect the committee,
the citizens can make suggestions about changes for about 30 days and, after
that time, let the committee make all the necessary changes they see fit in about
90 days. After that, the citizens vote to accept the changes or reject them
as a whole. No line item veto. No arguments about history or tradition or
whose name is on it. It becomes the Constitution and the Twelve Tablets of Nova
Roma. If it is rejected as a whole, the committee has 30 days to fix it and
present it again for a vote. With any luck and a good deal of compromise,
Nova Roma could be completely reorganized before the end of the year.

I personally would like to see the current consuls and praetores on such a
committee as well as some of our PM, about three of priests (flamines,
pontifices, sacerdotes), some past magistrates and a handful of Senators. Overall,
keep the group to about 21 which is about 5% of the membership.

I know this sounds impossible but if you think about it for about three days,
many citizens might come to see it as workable. All it takes is a majority
to make such changes in almost any organization. Some times it works and some
times it splits a group. Let's think about it.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Guiboche" <nate@...> wrote:

>
> Salve
> NR is massively top heavy to the point of rediculesness...
> Vale
> Quintus Sertorius
>

Salve Amice,

I disagree. The fact is that we all have busy lives. It may look like
a lot of people, but it takes that many to put together the minimum
citizen-hours needed to keep things going and to have enough depth to
insulate us from "disasters" (like exam times, motorcycle accidents,
etc.).

Optime vale

M. Lucretius Agricola

Salvete Quirites,

I have received many requests from people seeking to update their
photos. I will attend to them as soon as possible, and notify you
as soon as the new photo is uploaded.

One of my requests is that photos be submitted as JPG format files,
in 150x150 and a second one no larger than 500x500. It takes time
to convert the various format, crop, scale, and upload the manifold
formats I receive.

Please bear with me as I try to meet your requirements, while
attending to the many other responsibilities I have as webmaster. I
will try to fulfill all your requests in as timely a manner as
possible.

Thank you for your kind cooperation in this matter.

Valete!
Quintus Valerius Callidus

Salve Fvsce!

I thank you for your correction. I didn´t know that you had ceased from the function of Tribvnvs Plebis in January. Misunderstanding because of the signature, ok?

I didn´t take your critics as a personal offence as you probably thought, because of my "enthusiasm" with Nova Roma. I was just convinced that you still ocupy the function of Tribvnvs, and from my point of view, a frustration which you demonstrated with a whole purpose of Nova Roma (you must have your reasons) would be desencouraging example, coming from the tribune of the people.

Respectfully,

Gaivs Cassivs Piso



Domitius Constantinus Fuscus <dom.con.fus@...> escreveu:
Salve

(Long post warning)

I see my post has indeed originated some reactions, and i'd like to address
each one of the, included the indirect one of Censor Marinus, if I may.

A general consideration tho. I see most of the replies came from new members
who indeed show enthusiasm, and that's godd and normal of course, but who I
do not think understood the underlining motive of my post in the first
palce, and that at the same replied geneally in what it sounded as a feeling
exposition rather than addressing the practical concerns I was exposing.
Some actually seemed to take the matter quite personally tho. I do not see
why, as the reason of my posting was not bellittling anyone or the
association at a whole, or placing blame (if I did in my post, I did it once
and to myself for the not exactly flourishing situation in the Urbs), but to
express my personal perception about the status of the associaiton (to
which, after I can't remembr anymore how many years around, I suppose I'm
entitled to, and to express that as well) and to encourage an exchange of
opinions and, if the problems outlined are somehow recognized as existant
rather thn a birth of my imagination, brainstorm about possible solutions.

Have to say that it appears to me that, in general, no one has actually
denied that most f the things I exposed are true. If that was because most
people thought those concerns to be so ridicolous to not deserve being
addressed, because the "how the hell he dares to say such things" feeling
overwhelmed the analysis skills of the posters or because most of them are,
in their own words, new members and thus lacking the long term perspective
needed to actually do such analysis, i do not know, tho.

Anyway...

*M. Lucretius Agricola: *Thank you for the welcome back. I do agree with you
that the impossibility of replying the "what is Nova Roma?" question (which,
have to say, is far from being a merely philosophical question to me) lies
mostly on "not that Nova Roma is nothing, but that Nova Roma is too many
things." I do not know if you actually was giving that "too many things" a
negative connotation, tho, but to me, that sounds as a problem. I thikn Nova
Roma should have, let's say, a broad definition and 5 (primary) goals
outlined and pursued, to avoid what I percieve as a floating withou
direction state.

Also, it is indeed possible that Nova Roma is indeed an active and
flourishing association and the perception I have, ostly opposite, is ased
only because most o fits activities happens off list,as yo usay. I doubt it,
but I accept the possibility.. but than even that would be a great problem,
as I think we'd all agree that, if so, it would be of the utmost importance
for us and for teh external getting in touch with us that this actvity be
made of public knoweledge.

Finally, I do agree with you (and others) that it's better quality than
quantity in members, yet my concern was not directed at the declining of teh
overall numbers, but of the actives (and I do not mean tax paying, I mean
really active) members.. it seems to me, but again it might be just a
perception (even if I could probably give some good hint, if not evidence,
of that) that this number is, indeed, declining over the last 2 or 3 years.

Also, thank you for the polite tone of your reply. And, I shall try to make
it to the Conventum, while I should maybe be in London in the mid of march
for a week or so (incidentally, I shall be in Berlin next weekend an again
two week-ends after and in Paris right after Easter... just in case).

*Robert <centorious@...>*, of whom the NR name is unkow to me. Your
reply was indeed a tad less polite, but anyway, you say among the rest "You
offer no positve alternatives to the bkeak and dreary pall you cast upon our
Nation". No, indeed I do not at this stage. I do not presume I have the sent
from above solution to the problems of Nova Roma. Actually, I do not even
presume I am fully correct in my analysis of those, which was precisely, as
I stated above, the point of my post. I was, and am, looking for a
confrontation of perceptions and ideas and, from there, move on in finding
shared solution if a problem is indeed agreed upon as being present. That's
ow consructive discussions proceed.

You took my post in a personal way, I have no idea why, but I shall blame
it on your newby enthusiasm (which I praise) . You refused the debate with
that "Until you can find a more constuctive and respectful tone when putting
down our people than there can be no debate." and of course is your right
to refuse debate, but I take strong objection on your reason as I do not
think I was disrespectful nor putting down our people and even stronger
objection to your "you even lash out at our Religeon" statement.

Gaius Livinus Crassus, I think you are in the best position to cast your
opinion as anyone else here. I seem to percieve, from the many "is the goal
of NR to..." questions an indirect confirmation of my impression that the
goals of Nova Roma are indeed not clear to you (as they are not anymore to
me either), which is one of my main concerns, or at least not generally
clearly exposed (please, correct me if I did read to omuch in your lines).

You, on the other hand, disagree on my perception of the community of Nova
Roma being declining in active members, and I'd appreciate if you could tell
me what, besides the main mailing list, gives you the impression of an
active and vibrant community.

About the Senate, there is indeed now a law to put a cap to the senators
numbers (I still think they are presently too many, with I think one every 5
tax payers, but that's just my personal opinion).

And I like the idea of the Senate outlining a plan for the next years, even
if that would limit the Consuls' authority and autonomy I guess, which would
be probably cause turmoil.

Yet i like the idea which brings me to

*Gnaeus Equitius Marinus,* who did not reply directly to me but to Livinius
Crassus and that "the goals that I placed before the Senate (and the Senate
ratified) back during my consular year two years ago.". I will take that you
thought of presenting to the Senate such goals because you felt like I do
feel now, that the goals were not clear and had to be outlined clearly in
order to be pursued.

Yet, probably for my own fault, I was not aware of such act of yours, nor of
what those Senate-approved goals are. Maybe it would be useful to repropose
those to the public here as I think I'm not the only one in this igorance
situation and to post them over the website too for newbies to know that we
stand for.

Gaivs Cassivs Piso, first of all, I'd like to say that your comments are
welcomed, even as perspective citizen, as the ones of the new and old
members :) also, I'd like to make clear that I'm not a Tribunus anymore, I
was last year and I ceased from the function in January, which is the year
my sigatue refers to. I shall make my signature less confusing as I close
this post, as it seems to have ingenerated this mistak a couple of times
already and a apologize for that.

Then, as for yoru mail, I'm glad we share the feeling we have an absurdely
large number of legal resolutions. As for the deifnition issue, I disagree
with you as yes of course I can define Ancient Rome. It would be a long
definition, of course, but can be summarized simply in Ancient Rome was a
statual entity with all the attribution and goals of such human social
entities (and no, Ancient Rome was not a philosphical conception, even if
inside the frame of it philosophical conceptions did indeed born and thrived
or a set of laws, even if indeed it was rules by such... and so on and so
forth).

The deifnition of what Nova Roma is, or at least what is Nova Roma is for,
is far from being an absurd or merely philosphical question, as I hope I
made it clear above, but indeed a practical necessity in order to pursue the
practical goals NR aims to.. whatever they are.

As for the constructive criticism, I hope I did answer this line of yours in
the reply i gave to Robert, above.

I thank you for the question of what I did expect when I joined Nova Roma,
and I shall try to answer about that later on in a different mail, both
because doing it here would make this mail even longe rthan it will already
be, but also because I do not think that'd add anything ot teh debate I'm
trying to have.

As for the "Rome wasn't built in a day"... :) Believe me, no one more than
someone living in Rome knows that, especially when it comes to undergrounds
;) Ok, kidding... one can't be always serious.

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus, I appreciat the fact you think such a debate as
I'm trying to raise is healty. I do partly agree with that "Sadly some less
active people, especially when things go a little awry,start getting a
little critical and mor e vocal" (and I shall hope that wasn't a polite way
to slipping in that I'd be one of such people... I might have done less than
others over the last 6 years, but I thik I do not have to prove I've done
more than many as well, but I'm sure that was not your intention, was it?),
as sometimes even active and "core" people might have concerns and vocalize
them. Actually, i think that when those people have, they a the most vocal
ones too, as the less involved eventually raise their concern and then find
better things to involve themsleves into and so you do not ear form them
anymore, while the core ones stay and keep vocalizing and so you keep
hearing them.

I see your what you say to people about us, so to be sure, you think we are
essentially, what define us, "a group of people intersted in Ancient Rome,
many of which are followers of the Religio"? I of course think that's a part
of it.
Yet, it doesn't say much about our goals as you link the Religio Romana as
an attribute of many NR members ("for many to have the opportunity to
practice the Religio") rather than of Nova Roma itself (like an harbor is
for many to repair their boats in a tempest, but is surely not the only
thing). But assuming that Nova Roma is for asisting Religio practitioners
(of course it is, i fully agre with it), is it its primary or sole goal? I
assume we agree it's not, but then what are our other goals and how we can
pursue them (or how we do practically pursue the one about the Religio
either, if we'd have to put it down in a written form)?

And finally, I found most intersting the Wikipedia hint you give as for
anyoen looking at it critically there is, indeed, a HUGE lack in the
index... "Governing and administrative divisions", "Mailing list", "Academia
Thule", "External Links".... where are the GOALS? The description of an
organization always state the goals of it. And, for that, where is the
Religio?? I do not think the lack of such things is a pure coincidence.

F. Galerius Aurelianus, you will allow me to address you with your name, I
hope, despite you referring to me as "the citizen from Italia". We find
ourselves agreeing on teh too many legal resolutions point (apparently,
there's no one disagreeing about it) and even if your offered solution is
maybe a ad radical, indeed it would work. I think that already limiting the
naming of law would already do some help, avoiding the "You shall not touch
my cretaure and my lasting monument to Nova Roma" syndrome. And I like th
membership card idea oto (especially if it was in plastic, imperial purple
red with gold Nova Roma logo.. it would be expensive I suppose, but
definitel cool).

I do not see why you isagree with me about the Religio tho. I do agree that
those are core maters to Nova Roma, I just said that those has seem to fall
on the background in the NOva Roma life, or at least discussions, supplanted
by discussions about laws, edicts, elections, grievances and, very recently
(but that at least is positive) posts about archeologicla findings. I
thought that was of full evidence, but you are telling me I'm mistaken?

I think, we do disagree on the role of Nova Rom ain the (please give me a
better term for it to use in my future posts) the Religio revival movement.
I think it's secodary, you seem to think it's indee dimportant. I shall beg
to your practitioner insight. You say that "there has been more positive
progress in reconstructing the practices of the old Roman Religion via Nova
Roma and the SVR in the last six years than has been done in the previous
half century via the academic path.". I'll accept that, but if that is the
case, may at least say I didn't have any knoweledge about it thro this
mailing list and the website over the last couple of years at least? And
that, if that is the case, that is still a problem (yes, even as a non
practitioner I think that is a problem fo ral lof us) to our association as
it would be, as Agricola says, that Nova Rome is indeed thriving with
activity, but it just doesn't reach teh members not direcly involved?

I also find something wrong about what you say of teh provincial and
travelling comparison between Europe and Us, but i admit I can't point it
out right now (might even b teh fact it's more than 3 hours 'm analizing the
replies and writing, besides I'm starving), I'll get back to it later, if
you allow me. yet I can say I'm pleased to see all those activities you
list, but maybe there should had been more publicity of those? And also a
calendar, pictures and reports on the website would be a good idea

and lastly

*Shadow DarkFyre <guardianargreg@...>,* to whom I'd suggest a Nova
Roman name and a fitting signature, as otherwise many people will have the
doubt of how serious your presence here is, I have to say that I didn't get
any comment from you after the introductory lines, and if it's a technical
problem of mine, please repost and I'll gladly address those.

And that's all so far, even if I hope more will feel like dropping their own
share to the debate, replyig to my primary post and this, if so they feel.

Valete,

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus

Founder of Gens Constantinia
Former Tribunus Plebis (MMDCCLVIII a. U. c.)
Aedilis Urbis Iterum


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Ex Officio Magistri Aranearii Quinti Valeri Callidi

EDICTVM MAGISTRI ARANEARII QUINTO VALERIO CALLIDO

De Creatione Scribarum

Ex hoc edicto, cives scribas meos una cum officiis privilegiisque
omnibus praescriptis legibus Novae Romae designo. Decimus Claudius
Aquilius Germanicus et Marcus Lucretius Agricola scribae creantur.
Quidquam ius iurandum non poscentur.

Hoc edictum statim valet.

Datum sub manu mea pridie ides Februarias MMDCCLIX ab urbe
condita Gaio Fabio Buteo Modiano Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
consulibus.

On the Naming of Scribae

I hereby appoint the following citizens as my scribae, together
with all the obligations and privileges prescribed by the laws of
Nova Roma. Decimus Claudius Aquilius Germanicus and Marcus Lucretius
Agricola are appointed scribae. They shall not be required to make
any kind of oath.

This edict is effective immediately.

Given under my hand this 12th day of February 2759 a.u.c (A.D. 2006)
in the consulship of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia
Minucia-Tiberia Strabo.

Salvete omnes,

I cannot but think that debate could be nothing but positive!
As a new probationay citizen, I have already asked myself and I quote,
"What is Nova Roma?" Where are we going and how do we get there?" Surely, no-one could find this objectionable? My question is, "Where DO we want to go?" Personally, I harbour great expectations.

I have subscribed to a number of rooms in N_R and have found little if anything happening there. An example is the Virtues. Today, I received 5 e-mails telling me that my application to join this room ( which is very important to me) has been declined because no-one has seen my application! In other rooms, there are no postings for months and sometimes for more than a year.

To be honest, I was beginning to lose my enthusiasm and started to look elsewhere until I saw Constantinus' note. It cannot be ignored that many people seem to make the effort to join us and then within a few weeks or even days just seem to disappear into the ether. I have seen this happen in Canada_Orientalis, my home province much too often. It is not enough to say that people fade away for no reason. Or, that there is any other particular reason other than they can't be bothered. It is our responsibility to make sure this doesn't happen. All of us!

We should have a clearly designed path to encourage new citizens to take part and create an enviornment where we all thrive. Where we are supported in our choice for Rome. It is my hope that one day we will be able to create a real micronation.

I would encourage healthy debate with all Nova Romans involved to brainstorm and resolve these fears. Surely, that could only be healthy.

I take no offence in a citizen voicing his fears and I would venture that many feel the same way.

This in no way diminishes the Herculean efforts so many of our great minds have and are making. I give my thanks to those people for their tireless work.

However, we must address now the reason for people losing interest and becoming inactive. We cannot accept or rationalise the inactive citizen. It is our fault if this happens! It should be our foremost goal to maintain and nourish this passion.

We are all here for a definite reason and that is the love of Rome. Rather than just talking about this, in tit for tat e-mails, a forum should be created at the highest levels to solve this conundrum.

To survive, we must grow. To grow we must maintain active citizens. Surely, this is a given.

With due respect to those who have created our website. It is HUGE! I have been reading it for over a year now and still am not fully conversant with it.
Rather than seem like a complainer may I make a suggestion which might be of value.

I am the proud owner of a beautiful Lararium. I feel a great affinity with the Gods and yet I still feel totally alone in my worship.

Would it not be possible as a start, for people interested in the Religio to have a chat room for all new Nova Roman citizens who have this interest in the Gods to be able to meet in a moderated chat room to discuss the religio? To share our experiences with other real people instead of simple existing in the realms of virtual reality? Where an expert could advise us and where we could share with other co-religionists? I need help in my relationship with the Gods and my Lares. Directly and personally.

The same could be said for other rooms. It needs to be personal. It needs to be moderated and it needs to be in a chat room! Not an e-mail!

Also, how is it possible that no-one is active the Virtues room?????? Is that not the basis for Rome to begin with? It is my suggestion that real life discussion in this room should be the test for citizenship. That we all learn how to use the Virtues in our real lives and that they be followed in all of Nova Roma.

It is not my intention, in any way to complain or apportion blame to anyone. However, I do suggest that there is room for improvement. I personally, seek and long for REAL Romanitas in my life and I believe that there are hundreds of thousands of people all over the world who seek and long for this. May I suggest, this is one reason citizens go elsewhere or simply disappear.

Bring on the debate,

Valete in pace deorum,

M. Aurelius Varus

Robert <centorious@...> wrote:
---Salve,Sir I must tell you I feel your post to be a very sad and
depressing one.In fact I as a new person in this group, you seem to
be trying to discourage and turn away any one who may express pride
in and enthusiasm for Nova Roma.You offer no positve alternatives to
the bkeak and dreary pall you cast upon our Nation.You do not seem to
offer up much but drab inuendo.I for one with such short time within
the ranks take great pride in my Gens and the valued citizenship of
Nova Roma.You say all these hurtful things but offer nothing to
improve what you claim to be so terribly wrong with us.Roma Dies you
even lash out at our Religeon.I thought that someone in your supposed
position was obliged to show more respect than that.Until you can
find a more constuctive and respectful tone when putting down our
people than there can be no debate.Salvete,May the Gods enlighten you!
Appius Galerius Aurelianus,Semper Fidelis. In Nova-
Roma@yahoogroups.com, Domitius Constantinus Fuscus <dom.con.fus@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve
>
> I'm writing this message , after a month of almost absolute absence
> from this an dother venues, in the hope of sparking a critical

debate

> on the Status of our organization (association, micronation, however
> you want to call it) in what I percieve a moment of, maybe slow, but
> steady involution.
>
> As said, it has been a month since I've dealt with Nova Roma

matters,

> and this time has passed not because of forgetfulness or lazyness on
> my part, but rather for a precise decision: to stay away from Nova
> Roma for a time to recollect my thoughts and take a deep breath. And
> in fact, besides a few sparse emails over the Urbs mailing list and
> the tribunician and praetorian cohors ones in answer to specific
> inquiries, my detachment from Nova Roma has been full and complete.
> Was tryin got get a fair perspecive to things. That's what I came up
> with.
>
> Over the last months, I've had this growing feeling of detachment

from

> the whole Nova Rom aconceptand I will explain you why: I simply

don't

> think Nova Roma serves any other purpose than its own self

preserving,

> which is no purpose great enough to devote my not unlimited time and
> energies to.
>
> It occurred to me that for defining Nova Roma is generally easier to
> say what it is not, than what it is: it is not a nation, it is not

an

> archeological group, it is not a study group, it is not a pressure

or

> lobbying group for heritage or archeological preservation, it is

not a

> religious group, it is not a discussion group, it is not a role
> playing game.
>
> Peraphs, what describes better Nova Roma as it is now is a virtual
> community which only practical purpose is having a yearly and
> convoluted and extremely complex election of its own moderators (in

a

> broad meaning of the word), while having mostly discussions in the

in

> between intervals to give the impression we are actually doing
> something. Yes, there is the occasional "academic" discussion

(usually

> monopolized by one or two individuals gifted with an unusual excess

of

> time, words and sense of self-importance), but all in all it seems

to

> me they are the exceptions, rather than the rule.
>
> I think, Nova Roma, if ever had it, lost its way. I'm not even being
> extremely original in saying this, as many have said that before me,
> and probably other will do after me. If the purpose was really
> creating one day a RL nation, i think by now we all know how
> ridiculous the thing is.
>
> If it was to revive the Religio Romana, I think it not only didn't

add

> much to the general worldwide pagan revival movement (said without
> offense, I just can't find a better term to define it), but

generally

> the whole subject has substantially fallen in the background in the
> every day Nova Roma life.
>
> The developement towards a RL association that had started to take
> place a couple of years ago, at least in Europe,and that I had

looked

> upon with great favor has substantially aborted (sometimes taken

over

> by parallel national projects towards which I have mixed feelings).
>
> With the exception of Madrid and Rome, I've heard of no other RL
> community being created, and of those two, at least Rome (maybe my
> fault in this, I do not know) is struggling. The yearly European
> conventa are indeed a funny way to spend a week, but they do not
> rapresent, in my opinion, anything more than a peculiar way to

spend a

> summer week. It's true I've mostly been absent from those, but I've
> not seen anything practical, not even a vague project, coming out

from

> those, anything that would help creating a feeling of being part of
> something going anywhere rather than a more or less numerous group

of

> individuals sharing a more or less vague sense of fascination from a
> 2000 years old reality. As a Tribunus, I subscribed to all the
> european and several non-european provincial mailing lists and with
> the exception of Spain (who I think it's slowing down too, but

that's

> just a perception) and Italy, they seem pretty much comatose as

well.

>
> The practical projects on the field remained projects: even the MM
> project, as I can percieve it, has basically stalled, and no other
> project has been brought forward. Obviously, we do not have the
> economical resources, and I do not see a way to gather them, to do
> anything really practical. Serapio had the brilliant, indeed
> brilliant, idea of the literary contest, but that also seemed more
> like the occasional lightning in an otherwise darkly clouded night.
>
> In my year as a Tribunus I've learned that 90% of the energies of

the

> (not quite surprisingly less and less) active members are spent in
> drafting elaborate and substantially void of any practical RL

effect

> laws, edicts and whatever, arguing about susch intellectual

creatures,

> discussing about what this or that person as done or hasn't done

(but

> more correctly, said or not said, as most have lost the perception

of

> the difference of DOING and SAYING, and actually equating having
> written a mail as actually having DONE something).
>
> If Nova Roma would be disbanded today, all that would be left is an
> archive of several thousands of emails, a Tabularium with several
> hundreds of laws and edicts ruling a community of a couple of

hundreds

> of active people and what else? And do you see this changing in the
> next year or two? I do not.
>
> The truth is that for every single possible function of Nova Roma
> there are other, better, alternatives: letting aside the utopistic
> micronational project, for the Religio (which, incidentally, seems

to

> be more of an individual rytes thing than anything else, probably
> because it's practically impossible to celebrate the great public
> celebrations) there are many smaller, local, but RL "circles"

(again,

> said without offense). For re-constructionism, many more organized

and

> rl group (that Nova Roma "sponsors", which practically means "oh, we
> want to let you know that we think you are so cool"), for academic
> discussions, better rl and online venues.
>
> What's our original or specific trait? And most especially, what do

we

> want to achieve? Untill we do no thave a list, possibly in a
> hierachical graduation, of at least potentially achievable goals, we
> shall nevr know in which direction we must move. Right now our goals
> are vague, general, some of them utopistic, so much that if you'd

ask

> to 10 nova roman what is nova roma about, i think you'd get at least
> 8, if not 10, different answers. Some might consider this as a good
> thing, a show of vitality and difference, I think that's a show of
> confusion an lack of direction which essentially leave us with

nowhere

> to go and bring us to be stuck in an infinite talk about our
> "institutions" and "laws" and little more.
>
> We have 200 more or less active members, and probably about (more,

if

> we count the senate) 50 of them are busy, in various degrees
> (magistrates, scribae, cohortes, consultants and so on and so

forth),

> in "governing" the others. Not even the most bureocratic nation of

all

> time had 1 governing person for every 3 governed. The "governing"
> activity is sucking up almost all the energies, thoughts, time of

the

> association (it's enough to check the last 3 months of posts on the
> mailing list.. I'd say that 80% to 90% of the post are "legislative"
> and "governing" matters and comments about those), and that, long

from

> being considered pathological, has became so normal that a debate of
> what is Nova Roma, what is its purpose, "where it is going and how

to

> go there" debate has disappeared totally after the last, weak,
> appearance of maybe a couple of years ago.
>
> We apparently forgot that governing is not a goal, but a mean to DO
> something.. running a country, in case of nations, or achieving the
> original or intervened objectives, for an association. But what are
> our practical objectives at this point?
>
> Valete,
>
> Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
>
> Founder of Gens Constantinia
> Tribunus Plebis MMDCCLVIII a. U. c.
> Aedilis Urbis Iterum
>

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Salve
Yes I do see your point...
Vale
QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: An invite to a debate


> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Guiboche" <nate@...> wrote:
>>
>> Salve
>> NR is massively top heavy to the point of rediculesness...
>> Vale
>> Quintus Sertorius
>>
>
> Salve Amice,
>
> I disagree. The fact is that we all have busy lives. It may look like
> a lot of people, but it takes that many to put together the minimum
> citizen-hours needed to keep things going and to have enough depth to
> insulate us from "disasters" (like exam times, motorcycle accidents,
> etc.).
>
> Optime vale
>
> M. Lucretius Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> A. Tullia Scholastica M. Aurelio Varo quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> omnibus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I cannot but think that debate could be nothing but positive!
> As a new probationay citizen, I have already asked myself and I quote,
> "What is Nova Roma?" Where are we going and how do we get there?" Surely,
> no-one could find this objectionable? My question is, "Where DO we want to
> go?" Personally, I harbour great expectations.
>
> I have subscribed to a number of rooms
>
> ATS: What do you mean by ³rooms?² We have sodalities with mailing lists,
> not chat rooms.
>
> in N_R and have found little if anything happening there. An example is the
> Virtues. Today, I received 5 e-mails telling me that my application to join
> this room ( which is very important to me) has been declined because no-one
> has seen my application! In other rooms, there are no postings for months and
> sometimes for more than a year.
>
> ATS: Membership is restricted to some of our MAILING LISTS. In this
> particular case, the list owner has had a series of crises, and is not known
> for swiftness of response. He does, however, have other virtues. There is
> very little activity there in any case.
>
> MAV: To be honest, I was beginning to lose my enthusiasm and started to look
> elsewhere until I saw Constantinus' note. It cannot be ignored that many
> people seem to make the effort to join us and then within a few weeks or even
> days just seem to disappear into the ether. I have seen this happen in
> Canada_Orientalis, my home province much too often. It is not enough to say
> that people fade away for no reason. Or, that there is any other particular
> reason other than they can't be bothered. It is our responsibility to make
> sure this doesn't happen. All of us!
>
> ATS: They get busy. Incidentally, we usually refer to people by full
> name, or by cognomen; the cognomen of the writer in question is Fuscus.
>
> MAV: We should have a clearly designed path to encourage new citizens to
> take part and create an enviornment where we all thrive. Where we are
> supported in our choice for Rome. It is my hope that one day we will be able
> to create a real micronation.
>
> I would encourage healthy debate with all Nova Romans involved to brainstorm
> and resolve these fears. Surely, that could only be healthy.
>
> I take no offence in a citizen voicing his fears and I would venture that
> many feel the same way.
>
> This in no way diminishes the Herculean efforts so many of our great minds
> have and are making. I give my thanks to those people for their tireless work.
>
> However, we must address now the reason for people losing interest and
> becoming inactive. We cannot accept or rationalise the inactive citizen. It is
> our fault if this happens! It should be our foremost goal to maintain and
> nourish this passion.
>
> ATS: Some simply tire of the quarrels on the ML, and some simply don¹t
> like politics. Some get overworked because so few are willing to give some
> time to NR, and burn out. Some have been personally insulted on one list or
> another, or by personal mail, for expressing a view contrary to that of the
> party who attacks him, her, or them. Some have even been threatened.
>
> MAV: We are all here for a definite reason and that is the love of Rome.
> Rather than just talking about this, in tit for tat e-mails, a forum should be
> created at the highest levels to solve this conundrum.
>
> To survive, we must grow. To grow we must maintain active citizens. Surely,
> this is a given.
>
> With due respect to those who have created our website. It is HUGE! I have
> been reading it for over a year now and still am not fully conversant with it.
> Rather than seem like a complainer may I make a suggestion which might be of
> value.
>
> I am the proud owner of a beautiful Lararium. I feel a great affinity with
> the Gods and yet I still feel totally alone in my worship.
>
> Would it not be possible as a start, for people interested in the Religio to
> have a chat room for all new Nova Roman citizens who have this interest in the
> Gods to be able to meet in a moderated chat room to discuss the religio? To
> share our experiences with other real people instead of simple existing in the
> realms of virtual reality? Where an expert could advise us and where we could
> share with other co-religionists? I need help in my relationship with the Gods
> and my Lares. Directly and personally.
>
> ATS: The subject of chat rooms has been broached with some frequency even
> since I¹ve been here, which is long enough, but not forever. You must realize
> that people are in wildly different time zones. There is a 5 or 6 hour
> difference between the eastern U.S., or eastern Canada where you live, and
> Britain. For you, it¹s dinnertime; for them, it¹s midnight. Their late
> afternoon is your morning, and Italy, and much of the rest of Europe, is an
> hour later than that. California, and far western Canada are three hours
> earlier than your (and my) time. I have no idea what time it is in Australia,
> New Zealand, Japan, or Singapore, but we have citizens in all of the above.
> Moreover, people have different schedules‹some work days, some work evenings,
> some work nights, some change working hours. Some are day larks, and some are
> night owls. It is very difficult to arrange a time convenient to even a large
> majority of the population. Those who have tried to set up chat rooms have
> had little success. For us at NR, mailing lists or plain ol¹ e-mail work
> best. Shockingly, everything does NOT have to be done instantaneously (and
> you will soon find that Yahoo¹s version of rapid communication doesn¹t concur
> with yours; it can take a month for Yahoo posts to arrive‹or days, or hours,
> not to mention that some never, ever show up). Some of us also communicate
> via a device called a Œtelephone.¹ They¹re not the latest thing, but they do
> work. There is also something called Skype, and for those who MUST be there
> in person, as well as for us reenactors who teach the public, there are
> reenactment events, notably those in Lacus Magni which focus on the RR.
>
> There are two lists for the RR that I know of, and there may be a third.
> Why don¹t you join them‹with the understanding that they are mailing lists,
> not chat rooms, and that the members are busy people, often with work and
> families to attend to. We are volunteers, not high schoolers looking for
> something to do. Believe me, we have plenty to do.
>
> MAV: The same could be said for other rooms. It needs to be personal. It
> needs to be moderated and it needs to be in a chat room! Not an e-mail!
>
> ATS: Many of our lists, including this one, are moderated. Chat rooms
> don¹t work for a geographically-diverse population. Not all of us have to be
> up close and personal, and some of us aren¹t familiar with the technology. We
> also happen to have a large age range, and a wealth of abilities and
> knowledge.
>
> MAV: Also, how is it possible that no-one is active the Virtues room??????
>
> ATS: I touched upon this earlier. This isn¹t a room, it¹s a mailing
> list. It¹s one of the quietest here. It takes time and inspiration to write
> about virtue, and in any case vice is usually a heck of a lot more popular.
> Incidentally, patience is also a virtue...
>
> MAV: Is that not the basis for Rome to begin with? It is my suggestion that
> real life discussion in this room should be the test for citizenship. That we
> all learn how to use the Virtues in our real lives and that they be followed
> in all of Nova Roma.
>
> ATS: People have different interests. We do not compel membership in any
> sodalitas, though I agree completely with your last sentence.
>
> May I suggest that we show our Romanitas in another way: (those who know
> me can guess what I¹m going to say): why don¹t we require new citizens to
> pass a rigorous examination in Latin? They should be able to post to the ML
> in correct Latin, as ascertained by Nova Roma¹s ever-increasing crew of fine
> Latinists. That would really show Romanitas, for, as our senior, world-class
> Latinist has observed, one can¹t understand the Romans without understanding
> their language. Given your interest, you might even want to read some of
> Pontifex Scaurus¹ long and lovely Latin prayers to assorted Roman deities‹and
> understand the Latin without the pony.
>
> MAV: It is not my intention, in any way to complain or apportion blame to
> anyone. However, I do suggest that there is room for improvement. I
> personally, seek and long for REAL Romanitas in my life and I believe that
> there are hundreds of thousands of people all over the world who seek and long
> for this. May I suggest, this is one reason citizens go elsewhere or simply
> disappear.
>
> ATS: Actually, some of them get busy. Their work changes. The baby
> arrives. A parent gets sick, and has to be cared for. A child gets seriously
> ill. An accident occurs. Maybe the citizen gets seriously ill. There are
> all sorts of reasons for fading into the background‹including those mentioned
> above in an earlier comment.
>
> There¹s always room for improvement.
>
> MAV: Bring on the debate,
>
> Valete in pace deorum,
>
> M. Aurelius Varus
>

Vale, et ualete,

A. Tullia Scholastica (who happens to be a member of the Sodalitas
Virtutis...being a virtuous sort).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please, change that lex.
acc
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:54:56 -0000
From: "FAC" <fraelov@...>
Subject: New website for PROVINCIA ITALIA

Salvete Omnes,

the Provincia Italia have a new website at

http://italia.novaroma.org

(omissis) P.S.: I would recall to the Consules and the Illustri Senatores
that
the title "Provincia" applied to Italia is a terrible historical
error. Rome never called Italy (the mother land) easily "Provincia".
Maybe we could discuss about it.

Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Senator et ProConsul Italiae




Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:55:21 -0000
From: "Peter Bird" <p.bird@...>
Subject: RE: New website for PROVINCIA ITALIA

Salve, Francisce Apule Caesar, et salvete omnes!

(omissis)
[2] "Italia Provincia" does seem somewhat anomalous. As Italia is the "fons
et origo" of Romanitas itself - and therefore by extension of Nova Roma, if
Nova Roma is the resurrected Rome - how can it be a province of itself? If
Nova Roma is Roma resurgens, from where does its 'resurgens' come if not
from Rome? And Rome is Italy. To call Italia something other than Provincia
would give rise to problems of nomenclature, perhaps, but it's certainly
worth following up Caesar's comment.

(omissis)
Vivat Romanitas Resurgens!

Vale et valete optime.

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus

Salvete Quirites,

With the much needed help of Marcus Lucretius Agricola, all pending
photos have been converted and uploaded to the website. Agricola's
skill in graphic arts has helped speed the process to an early
completion.

Marco Lucretio gratias ago eumque laudo.

Valete!
Q. Valerius Callidus

Salve Corneli Lentule!

Thank you very much for correcting me! My mistake indeed. Here, in a small city in Lusitania it is not easy to find friends who could teach us Latin orthography correctly.
Anyhow I can assure you that it is one of my deepest wishes to learn to speak and write Latin correctly. I hope to find help in the websites of Nova Roma, especially Sodalitas Latinitatis. If I will have some serious grammatical or orthographical doubt which I can't resolve myself, may I write you and request your direct guidance?
I hope that someday in the future we can correspond in Latin!
Vale!
Gaius Cassius Piso

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus <cn_corn_lent@...> escreveu:
Cn. Cornelius Lentulus C. Cassio Pisoni salutem:

>>>...Tribvnvs Domitivs Constantinvs Fvscvs!<<<

Salve, Gai Cassi: you are welcome in our community! Firstly, please let me note that there is a frequent mistake that one uses minuscule "v" in place of minuscule "u" which is a nonexistent practice: capital "U" can be wrote as captal "V" but minuscule "v" cannot stand in place of minuscule "u": so one can write "tribunus" or "TRIBVNVS" and "TIBUNUS". Minuscule "u" however can be stand in place of minuscule "v": so one can write "salve" and "salue".

Please forgive me that I start our correspondence with corrections: this is just a friendly explanation on Latin orthography. Many write such like "tribvnvs" because beleive Romans used "v" when we write "u". This is simply not true: Romans (by some of thier coursive writing methods at least) used *only* "V" as maiuscule and *only* "u" as minuscule: so they would write "uulcanus" or "VVLCANVS". Renaissance practice intruduced the distinction of u-v as well as i-j. Today we can follow both the Roman-medieval practice and the renaissance practice too -- but the most general and standard practice is the combination of both: one makes distinction between u-v and U-V (renaissance) but uses only "i" (ancient).

>>> I'm a finnish citizen and I'm proud of that, I live in province of Hispania and I'm proud of that too. To be a member of Nova Roma makes me feel ROMAN and I'm VERY proud of that!!! <<<

So we are in the same family of the Finno-Ugric language: I am Hungarian: and I am also very proud to be in a community where I am no more the only one who feels to be Roman -- I was sad before exploring NR as I beleived I am alone with that feeling.

>>> At last: Rome was not built in a day!!! <<<

This is said wisely! Nova Roma is only 8 years: she is a baby still, but I think, a very promising one :-)

Vale!


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


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OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Idus Februariis; haec dies nefastus publicus est.

"The altars of rustic Faunus smoke, on the Ides.
There, where the island breaks Tiber's waters.
This was the day when three hundred and six
Of the Fabii fell to Veientine weapons.
A single family assumed the burden and defence of the city:
Their strong right arms volunteered their swords.
Noble soldiers they marched from the one camp,
And any one of them was fitted to be the leader.
The nearest way was the right hand arch of Carmentis Gate
Let no one go that way: it is unlucky.
Tradition says that the three hundred Fabii passed through:
The gate is free of blame, but is still unlucky." - Ovid, Fasti II

"When the others refused their offer and chose the death befitting men
of noble birth, the Tyrrhenians renewed the struggle, attacking them
in relays, though no longer fighting at close quarters in hand-to‑hand
combat, but standing in a body and hurling javelins and stones at them
from a distance; and the multitude of missiles was like a snow-storm.
The Romans, massing by companies, rushed upon their foes, who did not
stand their ground, and though they received many wounds from those
surrounding them, they stood firm. But when the swords of many had
become useless, some having their edges blunted and others being
broken, and the borders of their shields next the rims were hacked in
pieces, and the men themselves were for the most part bled white and
overwhelmed by missiles and their limbs paralysed by reason of the
multitude of their wounds, the Tyrrhenians scorned them and came to
close quarters. Then the Romans, rushing at them like wild beasts,
seized their spears and broke them, grasped their swords by the edges
and wrenched them out of their hands, and twisting the bodies of their
antagonists, fell with them to the ground, locked in close embrace,
fighting with greater rage than strength. Hence the enemy, astonished
at their endurance and terrified at the madness that had seized them
in their despair of life, no longer ventured to come to grips with
them, but retiring again, stood in a body and hurled at them sticks,
stones, and anything else they could lay their hands on, and at last
buried them under the multitude of missiles. After destroying these
men they ran to the fortress, carrying with them the heads of the most
prominent, expecting to take the men there prisoners at their first
onset." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus 9.21

In the 480s B.C., the gens Fabius was one of the most powerful
familial groups in Rome. The Fabii had major Etruscan connections and
owned a considerable tract of land between Rome and Veii. A major
strategic point on the Via Salaria, or Salt Road between Rome and Veii
was where the stream Cremora joined the Tiber. The Fabii and the
Veians came into conflict with each other during this period, mainly
through mutual cattle raiding. Then, the Fabii built a defensive
blockhouse at the Cremora which the Veians considered a challenge
thrown in their teeth. Now the Fabii had raised a large semi - private
army who owed their allegiance not to the Roman state but to the
Fabian Gens. Thre hundred of the Fabii and their clients occupied the
blockhouse with intentions of holding this strongpoint against Veii in
476. This led to the Battle of the Cremora in which three hundred
Fabii were killed and the area was abandoned to the Veiians.


Today is the beginning of the Parentalia, the Roman festival for
honoring one's dead parents. Families gathered amongst the tombs of
loved ones and made offerings or sacrifices of grain and wine to their
souls. The Parentalia was the first of three Roman festivals in
February for appeasing the dead which started on the Ides and lasted
until the 22nd.

Valete bene,

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ovid

Cn. Lentulus C. Cassio Pisoni salutem plurimam dicit:

>>> Thank you very much for correcting me! My mistake indeed. Here, in a small city in Lusitania it is not easy to find friends who could teach us Latin orthography correctly. <<<

You are most welcome! If it's not easy in Lusitania: it's quite easy in Nova Roma, especially in the Sodalitas Latinitatis, which is the most appropriate place for you if you really want to learn Latin. The online university of Nova Roma, the Academia Thules has internet Latin courses, perhaps you will be interested in.

>>> Anyhow I can assure you that it is one of my deepest wishes to learn to speak and write Latin correctly. <<<

It is what's mostly up to somebody who feels to be Roman. It was also my deepest wish some years ago, then I've learned Latin and now I am here as a Latinist and Classicist: that's all...:-)

>>> I hope to find help in the websites of Nova Roma, especially Sodalitas Latinitatis. <<<

We wait for new sodales like you: in the Sodalitas Latinitatis you will find many helpful Latinists who will be ready to answer your questions, help you in your learning process.

>>> If I will have some serious grammatical or orthographical doubt which I can't resolve myself, may I write you and request your direct guidance? <<<

I will be honoured if you request my guidance: that's why I'm here as well as many of us are willing to help anybody here to learn whatever Roman things. If you want to ask grammatical or orthofaphical questions, please feel free to write me whether privately or in the Latinitas ML.

>>> I hope that someday in the future we can correspond in Latin! <<<

As I do hope so! Just hurry up, life is short, and to write and speak in Latin is such a wounderful thing that every single day not knowing Latin is lost...!

Cura ut quam optime valeas!



Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


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Publius Livius Triarius scripsit:

Fie on them for cold-hearted businessmen! Every miorning is the right
time to say that.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, Sextus Apollonius Scipio wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Please findthereafter an excerpt from an article you will find at:
> www.newswise.com/articles/view/517932/?sc=rsln
[snippety]

> Hallett says, "Love celebrations did not show up on the ancient Roman
> calendar until March 1, which was sacred to Juno, goddess of marriage, and
> on that day husbands would pray for the health of their wives and give them
> presents, and wives would dress up."

If I recall correctly, June was sacred to Juno -- hence the tradition of
the happy "June Bride", since celebrating a marriage in the month sacred
to the goddess of marriage was a good omen for its future. Is Hallett
perhaps mistaken or referring to a different tradition?

-- P. Livius Triarius
aka Dick Eney

Salve,Domitius Constantinus Fuscus,Honorable Sir.Thank you for elaborating upon your positions concerning the current debate.With all due respect I would now feel honored if you would allow me to enter this debate.As I have previously stated I am new and have a tendency to be protective of Nova Roma as it means so much to me personally.My Gens,Tribe and Rome all greatly effect my outlook on life.You see to me Nova Roma represents more than just a virtual community.To me it is a means by which I can be a part of the effort to bring Roman Virtues ,Religeon,Culture and Language to the modern world.Rome being the foundation of western civilization.It is a right of heritage that many nations of the world can claim.Forgive my reference to your position as I also misunderstood that you no longer held that position.BACK TO THE SUBJECT.I DO NOT EVEN MIND THE LAWS AND EDICTS BECAUSE AS A GOOD ROMAN I WISH TO BE INFORMED AND DESIRE TO ABIDE BY ALL THE LAWS OF THE REPUBLIC.Sorry about the higher
case I do not wish to give the impression that I am shouting.I just didn't correct the mistake.As far as religion I do my personal best to worship the Gods of my Gens and a couple others.I recieve great spiritual uplifting from this so I do expect to have my faith respected.Some accuse me of living in a fantasy world because of my beliefs.All I can say to them is they should enjoy the beautiful and interesting life that being a Roman provides me.If you think by your efforts you can streamline Nova Roma and make it more accesible than more power to you.Just please try not to throw out the baby with the bath water.Personally I love things the way they are.I understand the desire to improve but at what expence?So with all due respect I shall end this part of my participation in the debate.I welcome your opinion and your consul.Valete,Appius Galerius Aurelianus,Semper Fidelis!

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus <dom.con.fus@...> wrote: Salve

I'm writing this message , after a month of almost absolute absence
from this an dother venues, in the hope of sparking a critical debate
on the Status of our organization (association, micronation, however
you want to call it) in what I percieve a moment of, maybe slow, but
steady involution.

As said, it has been a month since I've dealt with Nova Roma matters,
and this time has passed not because of forgetfulness or lazyness on
my part, but rather for a precise decision: to stay away from Nova
Roma for a time to recollect my thoughts and take a deep breath. And
in fact, besides a few sparse emails over the Urbs mailing list and
the tribunician and praetorian cohors ones in answer to specific
inquiries, my detachment from Nova Roma has been full and complete.
Was tryin got get a fair perspecive to things. That's what I came up
with.

Over the last months, I've had this growing feeling of detachment from
the whole Nova Rom aconceptand I will explain you why: I simply don't
think Nova Roma serves any other purpose than its own self preserving,
which is no purpose great enough to devote my not unlimited time and
energies to.

It occurred to me that for defining Nova Roma is generally easier to
say what it is not, than what it is: it is not a nation, it is not an
archeological group, it is not a study group, it is not a pressure or
lobbying group for heritage or archeological preservation, it is not a
religious group, it is not a discussion group, it is not a role
playing game.

Peraphs, what describes better Nova Roma as it is now is a virtual
community which only practical purpose is having a yearly and
convoluted and extremely complex election of its own moderators (in a
broad meaning of the word), while having mostly discussions in the in
between intervals to give the impression we are actually doing
something. Yes, there is the occasional "academic" discussion (usually
monopolized by one or two individuals gifted with an unusual excess of
time, words and sense of self-importance), but all in all it seems to
me they are the exceptions, rather than the rule.

I think, Nova Roma, if ever had it, lost its way. I'm not even being
extremely original in saying this, as many have said that before me,
and probably other will do after me. If the purpose was really
creating one day a RL nation, i think by now we all know how
ridiculous the thing is.

If it was to revive the Religio Romana, I think it not only didn't add
much to the general worldwide pagan revival movement (said without
offense, I just can't find a better term to define it), but generally
the whole subject has substantially fallen in the background in the
every day Nova Roma life.

The developement towards a RL association that had started to take
place a couple of years ago, at least in Europe,and that I had looked
upon with great favor has substantially aborted (sometimes taken over
by parallel national projects towards which I have mixed feelings).

With the exception of Madrid and Rome, I've heard of no other RL
community being created, and of those two, at least Rome (maybe my
fault in this, I do not know) is struggling. The yearly European
conventa are indeed a funny way to spend a week, but they do not
rapresent, in my opinion, anything more than a peculiar way to spend a
summer week. It's true I've mostly been absent from those, but I've
not seen anything practical, not even a vague project, coming out from
those, anything that would help creating a feeling of being part of
something going anywhere rather than a more or less numerous group of
individuals sharing a more or less vague sense of fascination from a
2000 years old reality. As a Tribunus, I subscribed to all the
european and several non-european provincial mailing lists and with
the exception of Spain (who I think it's slowing down too, but that's
just a perception) and Italy, they seem pretty much comatose as well.

The practical projects on the field remained projects: even the MM
project, as I can percieve it, has basically stalled, and no other
project has been brought forward. Obviously, we do not have the
economical resources, and I do not see a way to gather them, to do
anything really practical. Serapio had the brilliant, indeed
brilliant, idea of the literary contest, but that also seemed more
like the occasional lightning in an otherwise darkly clouded night.

In my year as a Tribunus I've learned that 90% of the energies of the
(not quite surprisingly less and less) active members are spent in
drafting elaborate and substantially void of any practical RL effect
laws, edicts and whatever, arguing about susch intellectual creatures,
discussing about what this or that person as done or hasn't done (but
more correctly, said or not said, as most have lost the perception of
the difference of DOING and SAYING, and actually equating having
written a mail as actually having DONE something).

If Nova Roma would be disbanded today, all that would be left is an
archive of several thousands of emails, a Tabularium with several
hundreds of laws and edicts ruling a community of a couple of hundreds
of active people and what else? And do you see this changing in the
next year or two? I do not.

The truth is that for every single possible function of Nova Roma
there are other, better, alternatives: letting aside the utopistic
micronational project, for the Religio (which, incidentally, seems to
be more of an individual rytes thing than anything else, probably
because it's practically impossible to celebrate the great public
celebrations) there are many smaller, local, but RL "circles" (again,
said without offense). For re-constructionism, many more organized and
rl group (that Nova Roma "sponsors", which practically means "oh, we
want to let you know that we think you are so cool"), for academic
discussions, better rl and online venues.

What's our original or specific trait? And most especially, what do we
want to achieve? Untill we do no thave a list, possibly in a
hierachical graduation, of at least potentially achievable goals, we
shall nevr know in which direction we must move. Right now our goals
are vague, general, some of them utopistic, so much that if you'd ask
to 10 nova roman what is nova roma about, i think you'd get at least
8, if not 10, different answers. Some might consider this as a good
thing, a show of vitality and difference, I think that's a show of
confusion an lack of direction which essentially leave us with nowhere
to go and bring us to be stuck in an infinite talk about our
"institutions" and "laws" and little more.

We have 200 more or less active members, and probably about (more, if
we count the senate) 50 of them are busy, in various degrees
(magistrates, scribae, cohortes, consultants and so on and so forth),
in "governing" the others. Not even the most bureocratic nation of all
time had 1 governing person for every 3 governed. The "governing"
activity is sucking up almost all the energies, thoughts, time of the
association (it's enough to check the last 3 months of posts on the
mailing list.. I'd say that 80% to 90% of the post are "legislative"
and "governing" matters and comments about those), and that, long from
being considered pathological, has became so normal that a debate of
what is Nova Roma, what is its purpose, "where it is going and how to
go there" debate has disappeared totally after the last, weak,
appearance of maybe a couple of years ago.

We apparently forgot that governing is not a goal, but a mean to DO
something.. running a country, in case of nations, or achieving the
original or intervened objectives, for an association. But what are
our practical objectives at this point?

Valete,

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus

Founder of Gens Constantinia
Tribunus Plebis MMDCCLVIII a. U. c.
Aedilis Urbis Iterum


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A. Apollonius Domitio Constantino omnibusque sal.

I apologize, Fusce, for not replying earlier, although
perhaps you would prefer me to apologize for replying
at all. :) I shall try to be brief, at least by my
own standards.

I think it's useful to distinguish between two types
of "goal". When we say "what are the goals of Nova
Roma?" we may mean two things. We may mean "for what
purpose does Nova Roma exist?", or we may mean "what
are the things which Nova Roma seeks to achieve?" They
may seem to be the same thing, but let me explain the
difference.

When we ask "for what purpose does Nova Roma exist" we
imply that Nova Roma is a project which has been set
up to achieve some specific and definable end or ends.
We imply that at some point, if Nova Roma works well,
it will be possible to say "Nova Roma has now achieved
all its aims and can be regarded as a complete
success". At that point, it seems, there will be no
further justification for the existence of Nova Roma
and the only logical response will be to disband it.

The other question - "what are the things which Nova
Roma seeks to achieve?" - does not make that
implication. It takes the existence of Nova Roma as an
axiom and simply asks what, if anything, Nova Roma
wishes to change about itself or others.

The way you have framed the debate makes me think that
you're thinking in terms of the first option. I
suggest that this is a mistake. It conceives Nova Roma
as something which it is not and was never meant to
be: a means to an end. I wasn't here at the outset,
but all the evidence I have seen tells me that Nova
Roma was always meant to be an entity in permanent
existence. It was, to be sure, foreseen that by its
existence and its activities it would achieve
desirable ends such as the revival of traditional
Roman religious attitudes and practices, but I do not
think that there was ever any idea that these ends
would one day be definitively achieved and that Nova
Roma would then have no further reason to exist.

Indeed I think this is confirmed by the concept of
Nova Roma as a state. We may disagree about whether
Nova Roma can or should ever actually be an
internationally-recognized sovereign state with
exclusive jurisdiction over physical territory. But
the simple act of conceiving Nova Roma as a state, a
nation, a community, a micronation, &c. makes it very
clear that it is intended not to be a means to an end
but to be an end in itself. Few people would claim
that France or India or Lebanon or South Africa exists
for one or more specific purposes and that once it has
achieved those goals it will cease to exist. Even
people who believe that their country has a divine or
historic mission in the world would, I suspect, not go
so far as to say that the achievement of that mission
is its sole reason for existence. The founders of Nova
Roma would not have framed Nova Roma in the language
of the sovereign state if they had not meant it to be
a permanent community which exists not to further some
external goal but simply because its existence is
inherently desirable. I think this is the same point
that underlies M. Lucretius' earlier response.

Maybe I've misunderstood your sentiments and this is
not in fact what you're suggesting. But it feels to me
like there is something of this line of thinking
underlying your complaints. You seem to feel that Nova
Roma is somehow not doing its job or not justifying
its continued existence if it lacks clearly defined
goals or if it is not making any progress toward
achieving them. This seems to me to assume that Nova
Roma's existence cannot be regarded as a valid end in
itself. Of course if Nova Roma were doing nothing but
existing that would not be a very satisfactory
situation, just as it would not be very satisfactory
for citizens of Germany if the German government were
doing nothing whatsoever. But the total inactivity of
the German government would not, I'm sure you'd agree,
be a reason to doubt whether the very existence of
Germany was justified. But it seems to be inherent in
your thinking that if Nova Roma is not doing anything
then its very existence is pointless.

What I've noticed in almost all the responses you've
received so far is that, as much as people may agree
with you that Nova Roma has many faults, they do not
seem to agree with your willingness to wonder whether
there is any point in Nova Roma existing at all.
Several people have stressed that it is a community,
and one to which they are happy to belong. This,
surely, is in itself sufficient justification for its
existence.

But perhaps your point is more subtle than that.
Perhaps you are not doubting that the existence of
Nova Roma in some form is justified, but merely that
its existence in its current form - the form, more or
less, of the ancient Roman republic - is justified.
This is a fair question, and no doubt there are some
people who would be perfectly happy with Nova Roma if
it gave up all pretence or aspiration of being a Roman
republic, contenting itself with being a community of
people who are interested in Roman things. But my
answer would be this. Nova Roma is not just a
community of people who are interested in Roman things
but a community of people who are, or wish to be,
Roman: that is, people who live, or wish to live,
lives which share many or most of the characteristics
which distinguished the lives of ancient Romans. If
so, it follows naturally that people who are or wish
to be characteristically Roman will wish to engage in
activities which are characteristically Roman. One
such activity is participation in a system of
government which is itself characteristically Roman.
Another is to belong to a community on whose behalf
characteristically Roman public religious rituals are
conducted. And so on.

What I'm suggesting (and it won't be new to those who
heard me say it last summer in Rome) is that we should
think of Nova Roma not as a project which has goals of
its own but as a community which seeks to enable its
members to live Roman lives. The justification for
Nova Roma's existence is not that Nova Roma does X, Y,
or Z, but that by its mere existence it enables its
own members to do X, Y, or Z. This, I think, is much
more in line with the fact that we have always
conceived Nova Roma as being in some way similar to a
state, for the justification of the existence of any
state is simply that it supports and enables its
citizens to live the sort of life they collectively
wish to live.

This isn't to say that the leaders of Nova Roma
shouldn't formulate 'national' goals and priorities
and then use the resources of the community to try to
achieve them. That's a perfectly proper thing to do,
and the list of priorities which Cn. Equitius has
mentioned are in this category. They are not goals
which Nova Roma itself exists solely to achieve and
whose achievement will mark the end of Nova Roma's
useful life; they are simply goals which the leaders
of Nova Roma wish to achieve on behalf of the
community and for the benefit of the community. But
they pre-suppose the continuing existence of that
community and they are based on the idea that the
community is an end in itself.

I think this way of looking at things satisfies your
quest for something which both distinguishes Nova Roma
from other entities (both real and merely possible)
and justifies its existence in substantially the form
it now has. What Nova Roma seeks to do, and should
seek to do, and to a great extent already does, is to
be a Roman community. Its success should be measured
by the extent to which its citizens are able to live
their lives in a characteristically Roman way.





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A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

As you would expect of someone who in general supports
doing things the way the Romans did things, I'm very
sympathetic to the desire to get rid of the
unrepublican designation of Italy as a province. The
problem is that it's not as simple as changing the
label.

Why wasn't Italy a province in republican times?
Because, unlike the provinces, it was governed
directly by the central magistrates of the city of
Rome. So if we wish to be really historically accurate
we would have to abolish not only the term "provincia
Italia" but the entire Italian provincial government,
and its current functions would have to be assumed by
our consules, praetores, senate, and so on.

That would clearly be totally impractical. Not one of
our current higher magistrates lives in Italy. Only
three senatores live there. The central government
would be utterly incapable of governing Italy in the
way that the ancient republican central government
did.

Cn. Lentulus suggests simply changing the labels:
replacing "provincia Italia" with "Italia" and
replacing "governor" with "praefectus". Well, we could
do that, but I don't really see what good it would do.
To change the names but leave the institutions the
same would simply involve a pretence that Italy is not
a province just like every other. If it would make the
citizens of Italy feel better then that might be worth
doing, but personally I prefer to call a spade a
spade, a province a province, and a governor a
governor.

Another possibility would be to try to make a genuine
change to the way Italy is actually governed, based on
republican historical practice. This may be possible
in spite of the difficulties I mentioned above. For
when I said that Italy was governed during the
republic by the central magistrates, I was making a
misleading generalization. In fact it was strictly
speaking only the city of Rome and the Roman ager
publicus which was so governed. The rest of Italy was
more or less left to run itself through the
pre-existing system of self-governing cities tied to
the Roman state by treaties of alliance. Could we use
this model?

It would mean no longer having a single individual
responsible for the administration of the whole
peninsula. Each city (with its surrounding territory)
would take responsibility for its own government. The
city of Rome itself, which is already constituted as a
self-governing local community, could remain as such,
and other city-communities could be constituted on the
same basis. They could retain some cohesion across the
whole peninsula by keeping up their current practice
of holding annual administrative meetings open to all
Italian citizens, which could be adapted to provide a
role for delegates from each self-governing community.
It would be something akin to the old "Latin League".
There could also, perhaps, be a special sub-committee
of the senate (including at least some of the Italian
senatores) to keep a special eye on the business of
the peninsula and give some strategic overview.

It's a model which has some attractions: it would
remove the unhistorical model of Italy as a province
and replace it with something rather closer to the way
Italy was governed in republican times. The problem,
of course, is that it will not be feasible until there
are a decent number of local communities which are
actually large enough to be self-governing. At the
moment it seems to be more a case of individual
citizens scattered across the peninsula, with small
clusters here and there but nothing really capable of
forming a network of autonomous communities. Still,
it's an idea worth keeping in mind for a later date.



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A. Apollonius Flavio Galerio omnibusque sal.

You make an interesting point about our administrative
apparatus, legislation, and so on. There's no doubt
that it is disproportionate to the actual size of our
community. Most of it would be unnecessary if we were
merely an interest-group or a religious group. What
generates all the legislation and administrative work
is that we're a Roman republic.

If, as I've suggested, the basic point of Nova Roma is
that it enables us to live Roman lives, then a
necessary part of that is that it must enable us to
govern ourselves in a Roman way, under a Roman system
of government. If we were to slim down our
administrative processes and institutions to a size
more appropriate to the size of our community we would
be shooting ourselves in the collective foot because
we would be abandoning any attempt at a Roman style of
self-organization and thus denying our citizens an
important aspect of the experience of Roman life.

In short, a lot of our legislation is unnecessary if
all we want to do is govern ourselves, but it is
necessary if we want to govern ourselves as Romans
should govern themselves. And I hope you'll agree that
we do want to govern ourselves as Romans should govern
themselves. And it seems that the only way to do that
is to generate large quantities of legislation stating
how Romans should govern themselves and making it
compulsory for our magistrates to behave in that way.

We could, of course, do without most of this
legislation if people were simply prepared to do
things the Roman way of their own accord. Scrap the
lex constitutiva, scrap the tabularium, and just
observe the basic constitutional principles which the
ancient Romans of the republic observed. After all,
most of the constitutional and legal rules which are
written in our tabularium were never written down by
the ancient Romans.

When we see something in our republic which is
unhistorical, there are only two ways to correct it.
One is to pass a new lex changing it. This is the
current strategy and it inevitably means that the
closer we get to historical accuracy the more
legislation we'll produce. The other way is to repeal
any existing leges (including parts of the lex
constitutiva) until we actually have *no* written
statement of the law on that subject, and then say
"right, now let's just do it how the Romans did it".
That way, as we got closer and closer to historical
accuracy, we would have fewer and fewer laws on the
books until eventually we'd end up with virtually
none. But there's no way to do that under our current
constitutional arrangements.

As you say, we need a total overhaul of the
constitution. But this on its own won't reduce the
quantity of legislation which comes after it. To do
that we need to change the whole constitutional basis
of Nova Roma. We need to throw away the idea that
something is not law unless there's a piece of paper
in the tabularium saying it is. We need to go back to
the Roman way of thinking about law: we assume that
the constitution and the laws are the same as they
have always been until the assembly passes a lex that
says otherwise. We need to do more than simply
re-write the constitution. We need to *un*-write the constitution.



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A. Apollonius Cn. Lentulo omnibusque sal.

> ... Firstly, please let me note that there is
> a frequent mistake that one uses minuscule "v" in
> place of minuscule "u" which is a nonexistent
> practice: capital "U" can be wrote as captal "V" but
> minuscule "v" cannot stand in place of minuscule
> "u": so one can write "tribunus" or "TRIBVNVS" and
> "TIBUNUS". Minuscule "u" however can be stand in
> place of minuscule "v": so one can write "salve" and
> "salue".
>
> Please forgive me that I start our correspondence
> with corrections: this is just a friendly
> explanation on Latin orthography. Many write such
> like "tribvnvs" because beleive Romans used "v" when
> we write "u". This is simply not true: Romans (by
> some of thier coursive writing methods at least)
> used *only* "V" as maiuscule and *only* "u" as
> minuscule: so they would write "uulcanus" or
> "VVLCANVS".

I must totally disagree with you, amice. The Roman
cursive script did, indeed, use only one letter to
represent the sounds 'v' and 'u', but the letter it
used was 'v', not 'u'. The Roma hand-written letter
we're talking about had no tail at the right-hand
side: it was simply a diagonal stroke downwards and to
the right and then a diagonal stroke upwards and to
the left. It's true that it often had a slightly
rounded bottom rather than a sharp point, but it still
looked much more like our letter 'v' than like our
letter 'u'. So I can see no reason at all why people
shouldn't use the letter 'v' to represent this sound
in miniscule, provided they are consistent and use the
capital 'V' as well. The Roman cursive form of
"VVLCANVS" would have looked much more like "vvlcanvs"
than like "uulcanus".



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Salve, Cato!

Is it true you've got nearly 3 feet of snow in New York? Mehercle! Please
don't send it here!

Vale optime in nive

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of gaiusequitiuscato
Sent: 13 February 2006 15:15
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Id. Feb.



OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Idus Februariis; haec dies nefastus publicus est.

"The altars of rustic Faunus smoke, on the Ides.
There, where the island breaks Tiber's waters.
This was the day when three hundred and six
Of the Fabii fell to Veientine weapons.
A single family assumed the burden and defence of the city:
Their strong right arms volunteered their swords.
Noble soldiers they marched from the one camp,
And any one of them was fitted to be the leader.
The nearest way was the right hand arch of Carmentis Gate
Let no one go that way: it is unlucky.
Tradition says that the three hundred Fabii passed through:
The gate is free of blame, but is still unlucky." - Ovid, Fasti II

"When the others refused their offer and chose the death befitting men
of noble birth, the Tyrrhenians renewed the struggle, attacking them
in relays, though no longer fighting at close quarters in hand-to‑hand
combat, but standing in a body and hurling javelins and stones at them
from a distance; and the multitude of missiles was like a snow-storm.
The Romans, massing by companies, rushed upon their foes, who did not
stand their ground, and though they received many wounds from those
surrounding them, they stood firm. But when the swords of many had
become useless, some having their edges blunted and others being
broken, and the borders of their shields next the rims were hacked in
pieces, and the men themselves were for the most part bled white and
overwhelmed by missiles and their limbs paralysed by reason of the
multitude of their wounds, the Tyrrhenians scorned them and came to
close quarters. Then the Romans, rushing at them like wild beasts,
seized their spears and broke them, grasped their swords by the edges
and wrenched them out of their hands, and twisting the bodies of their
antagonists, fell with them to the ground, locked in close embrace,
fighting with greater rage than strength. Hence the enemy, astonished
at their endurance and terrified at the madness that had seized them
in their despair of life, no longer ventured to come to grips with
them, but retiring again, stood in a body and hurled at them sticks,
stones, and anything else they could lay their hands on, and at last
buried them under the multitude of missiles. After destroying these
men they ran to the fortress, carrying with them the heads of the most
prominent, expecting to take the men there prisoners at their first
onset." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus 9.21

In the 480s B.C., the gens Fabius was one of the most powerful
familial groups in Rome. The Fabii had major Etruscan connections and
owned a considerable tract of land between Rome and Veii. A major
strategic point on the Via Salaria, or Salt Road between Rome and Veii
was where the stream Cremora joined the Tiber. The Fabii and the
Veians came into conflict with each other during this period, mainly
through mutual cattle raiding. Then, the Fabii built a defensive
blockhouse at the Cremora which the Veians considered a challenge
thrown in their teeth. Now the Fabii had raised a large semi - private
army who owed their allegiance not to the Roman state but to the
Fabian Gens. Thre hundred of the Fabii and their clients occupied the
blockhouse with intentions of holding this strongpoint against Veii in
476. This led to the Battle of the Cremora in which three hundred
Fabii were killed and the area was abandoned to the Veiians.


Today is the beginning of the Parentalia, the Roman festival for
honoring one's dead parents. Families gathered amongst the tombs of
loved ones and made offerings or sacrifices of grain and wine to their
souls. The Parentalia was the first of three Roman festivals in
February for appeasing the dead which started on the Ides and lasted
until the 22nd.

Valete bene,

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ovid







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, Corde, salvete omnes

This interests me. Although I am perfectly familiar with Latin carved
inscriptions in which V is the normal form, I am not familiar with the
cursive, handwritten form. Are there any sites you can point me to which
show this? I am getting a little fed up, having been used to reading for
years texts in which the consonant form is written as 'v' and the vowel form
as 'u' (particularly Church Latin), with the apparent modern politically
correct use of 'u' for all lower case forms. The new OLD uses it, and - the
last straw! - the text I am teaching of Livy Book XXX now does as well! It
is as though those of use who use 'v' for the consonant were guilty of the
most ghastly solecistic behaviour! Funnily enough, my students dislike it as
well!

Curate bene

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of A. Apollonius Cordus
Sent: 13 February 2006 18:05
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] U and V in Latin Orthography [was: An invite to a
debate]



A. Apollonius Cn. Lentulo omnibusque sal.

> ... Firstly, please let me note that there is
> a frequent mistake that one uses minuscule "v" in
> place of minuscule "u" which is a nonexistent
> practice: capital "U" can be wrote as captal "V" but
> minuscule "v" cannot stand in place of minuscule
> "u": so one can write "tribunus" or "TRIBVNVS" and
> "TIBUNUS". Minuscule "u" however can be stand in
> place of minuscule "v": so one can write "salve" and
> "salue".
>
> Please forgive me that I start our correspondence
> with corrections: this is just a friendly
> explanation on Latin orthography. Many write such
> like "tribvnvs" because beleive Romans used "v" when
> we write "u". This is simply not true: Romans (by
> some of thier coursive writing methods at least)
> used *only* "V" as maiuscule and *only* "u" as
> minuscule: so they would write "uulcanus" or
> "VVLCANVS".

I must totally disagree with you, amice. The Roman
cursive script did, indeed, use only one letter to
represent the sounds 'v' and 'u', but the letter it
used was 'v', not 'u'. The Roma hand-written letter
we're talking about had no tail at the right-hand
side: it was simply a diagonal stroke downwards and to
the right and then a diagonal stroke upwards and to
the left. It's true that it often had a slightly
rounded bottom rather than a sharp point, but it still
looked much more like our letter 'v' than like our
letter 'u'. So I can see no reason at all why people
shouldn't use the letter 'v' to represent this sound
in miniscule, provided they are consistent and use the
capital 'V' as well. The Roman cursive form of
"VVLCANVS" would have looked much more like "vvlcanvs"
than like "uulcanus".



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Pontius Pilatus et salvete omnes!

Well, I'm not sure if it's three feet, but there's a lot. And
transportation is, naturally, still quite extraordinarily a mess.

Vale et valete bene,

Cato

Salve Cato,

[NYC snow]

> Well, I'm not sure if it's three feet, but there's a lot.

According to the National Weather Service, the Central Park NYC weather
station recorded 26.9 inches of snowfall yesterday. This is the most snow
ever recorded at that station in a single day, going back to the early 19th
(CE) century.

Here in Terra Maria (Maryland) we got off relatively easy, though what did
fall was very wet and heavy.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Q. Caecilius Metellus Pontifex Quiritibus Peregrinisque et Aliis salutem
plurimam dicit.

With today being the Ides, today, I offered to Juppiter a libation in
the place of and in rememberance of the sacrifice He would usually
receive on the Ides of each month. I observed no ill omens before,
during, and after the offering, and aside from the usual toga problems
(which are to be expected when you put a toga on by yourself), it went
without a hitch. The Latin text of the ritual is below. Also, I
include the calendar for the remainder of the month below. The calendar
for the full year can be found in the Tabularium
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/pontifices/2006-01-11.html).

I will be happy to answer any questions, comments, concerns, or
otherwise as well.

=====

Iane Quirine, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti
sies volens propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Mars Pater, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies volens
propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Quirine Pater, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Iane Quirine, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto.

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, macte isto ture esto, macte vino inferio esto.

Mars Pater, macte isto ture esto, macte vino inferio esto.

Quirine Pater, macte isto ture esto, macte vino inferio esto.

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, uti pro causa fas et ius vinum commovere tibi,
hanc libationem accipias quam nunc commoveam.

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, si quidquam tibi in hac caerimonia displicet,
hoc vino inferio veniam peto et vitium meum expio.

=====

February

13 Id. Feb. D NP Religiosus
14 a.d. XVI Kal. Mar. E N Ater
15 a.d. XV Kal. Mar. F NP Religiosus
16 a.d. XIV Kal. Mar. G EN Religiosus
17 a.d. XIII Kal. Mar. H NP Religiosus
18 a.d. XII Kal. Mar. A C Religiosus
19 a.d. XI Kal. Mar. B C Religiosus
20 a.d. X Kal. Mar. C F Religiosus
21 a.d. IX Kal. Mar. D FP Religiosus
22 a.d. VIII Kal. Mar. E C
23 a.d. VII Kal. Mar. F NP
24 a.d. VI Kal. Mar. G N
25 a.d. V Kal. Mar. H C
26 a.d. IV Kal. Mar. A EN
27 a.d. III Kal. Mar. B NP
28 pr. Kal. Mar. C F

F. Galerius Aurelianus A. Apollonio. Salve.


<snip> is that we're a Roman republic.
We are actually an mostly on-line organization that has modelled its administration on the late Roman Republic-early Principate.

<snip> If we were to slim down our administrative processes and institutions to a size
more appropriate to the size of our community we would be shooting ourselves in the collective foot because
we would be abandoning any attempt at a Roman style of self-organization and thus denying our citizens an
important aspect of the experience of Roman life.
This is blatantly untrue since many of our by-laws have little to do with the experience of a Roman life and more to do with being an on-line organization.

In short, a lot of our legislation is unnecessary if
all we want to do is govern ourselves, but it is
necessary if we want to govern ourselves as Romans
should govern themselves. And I hope you'll agree that
we do want to govern ourselves as Romans should govern
themselves. And it seems that the only way to do that
is to generate large quantities of legislation stating
how Romans should govern themselves and making it
compulsory for our magistrates to behave in that way.
If the virtues are not within the heart of our members, then it cannot be legislated. I do not agree that our current by-laws are necessary to foster a system of Romanitas.
We could, of course, do without most of this
legislation if people were simply prepared to do
things the Roman way of their own accord. Scrap the
lex constitutiva, scrap the tabularium, and just
observe the basic constitutional principles which the
ancient Romans of the republic observed. After all,
most of the constitutional and legal rules which are
written in our tabularium were never written down by
the ancient Romans.
Correct. As such, streamlining our rules would improve our ability to participate more effectively in Nova Roman community life.

When we see something in our republic which is
unhistorical, there are only two ways to correct it.
Wrong. You have stated two ways. I have stated a third possibility which the membership can act upon if they choose to do so.
One is to pass a new lex changing it. This is the
current strategy and it inevitably means that the
closer we get to historical accuracy the more
legislation we'll produce. The other way is to repeal
any existing leges (including parts of the lex
constitutiva) until we actually have *no* written
statement of the law on that subject, and then say
"right, now let's just do it how the Romans did it".
That way, as we got closer and closer to historical
accuracy, we would have fewer and fewer laws on the
books until eventually we'd end up with virtually
none. But there's no way to do that under our current
constitutional arrangements.
Right. So let's change the Constitution and by-laws to a manageable level.

As you say, we need a total overhaul of the
constitution. But this on its own won't reduce the
quantity of legislation which comes after it.
Actually, we can make changes to the process in a manner that is within both a historical framework & can be reduced to bi-annual changes.
To do that we need to change the whole constitutional basis
of Nova Roma. We need to throw away the idea that
something is not law unless there's a piece of paper
in the tabularium saying it is. We need to go back to
the Roman way of thinking about law: we assume that
the constitution and the laws are the same as they
have always been until the assembly passes a lex that
says otherwise. We need to do more than simply
re-write the constitution. We need to *un*-write the constitution.
Just as the Twelve Tablets gave way to the Justinian Codex, the original Constitution of Nova Roma can be rewritten by the membership of Nova Roma if it original concepts remain intact.
Vale.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have recently received a private letter, admonishing me regarding
my post in the current debate begun by Domitius Constantinus
Fuscus. My correspondent brought up two points related to my post,
and I wish to respond to them here, if I may.

First, I was cautioned to identify clearly those to whom I am
responding. I will (out of respect for the privacy of the letter)
not identify my private correspondent. The last part of my public post,
however, was in reply to this statement by Appius Galerius Aurelianus
(in which he was responding to Domitius Constantinus Fuscus):

"Until you can
find a more constuctive and respectful tone when putting down our
people than there can be no debate."

Secondly, I was cautioned that "it would be a courtesy to admonish them
privately if you find something in a post that you perceive as
insulting". I agree completely with this general statement; it is my
general practice. But I will not do so here, for the following reasons.
First, I did not find Galerius Aurelianus's post insulting, and I will
here offer a public apology to him if he perceived that I was implying
that. Rather, it appeared to me that he had found the statement of
Constaninus Fuscus insulting. Secondly, this was a call for public
debate; both Galerius Aurelianus and I participated in that public
debate. I recognize -- as I assume all here do -- that disagreement does
not equal insult. That was the very point of my post. I was not trying
to insult anyone, nor did I feel that anyone was trying to insult me (or
anyone else, for that matter).

I have seen a sort of "hair-trigger" propensity to shout "flamewar!" in
various non-NR venues in which I participate. I had hoped to avoid that,
and I greatly regret that my initial stroll into the forum of Nova Roma
had any uncomfortable result.

Aulus Tullius Severus

Salvete Omnes;
Zoe from the Hellenic Pagan list has kindly made a directory for
Roman Recons; please enter now and you will be able to find others
in your area. And lets not forget our Hellenic brothers and sisters
when planning events!
di deasque vos ament
Marca Hortensia Maior

http://www.flyallnight.com/salvete_RRD/

the above is a wee directory I have started as a twin to the
Hellenic
one.

( http://www.flyallnight.com/khaire_HPD )

I am hoping to get it going as I suspect there just *has* to be
more "classical pagans" around :) If you could mention it in your
circles I would appricate it.

-Zoe, hopefully near me in NorCal there are some.

> Salvete:
>
> Let me introduce myself....
>
> My name is David O. Kling, also known as Gaius Fabius Buteo

Modianus

> (formerly Gaius Modius Athanasius) and Athanasios.... Yeah, *I* am
> probably the only one who can keep it all straight.
>
> Not much time right now... but I wanted to offer some introduction.
>
> I am currently the "senior" Consul in Nova Roma, as well as a
> Pontifex, and Augur of Nova Roma.

--- End forwarded message ---

Salve Aulus Tullius Severus

No "uncomfortable result." at all that I can see.

You ( an everybody else) are free to "stroll into the forum of Nova
Roma" any time you like. I have seen nothing in the current on going
debate that would qualify as a "flame war !"

So please enjoy the debate and rest assured that if a flame war
looks like it is about to flare up the Praetors will take steps to
ensure that our "Corps of Vigiles " are on the job straight away.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Praetor

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Steve Mesnick <steffan@...> wrote:
>
> I have recently received a private letter, admonishing me regarding
> my post in the current debate begun by Domitius Constantinus
> Fuscus. My correspondent brought up two points related to my post,
> and I wish to respond to them here, if I may.
>
> First, I was cautioned to identify clearly those to whom I am
> responding. I will (out of respect for the privacy of the letter)
> not identify my private correspondent. The last part of my public
post,
> however, was in reply to this statement by Appius Galerius
Aurelianus
> (in which he was responding to Domitius Constantinus Fuscus):
>
> "Until you can
> find a more constuctive and respectful tone when putting down our
> people than there can be no debate."
>
> Secondly, I was cautioned that "it would be a courtesy to admonish
them
> privately if you find something in a post that you perceive as
> insulting". I agree completely with this general statement; it is
my
> general practice. But I will not do so here, for the following
reasons.
> First, I did not find Galerius Aurelianus's post insulting, and I
will
> here offer a public apology to him if he perceived that I was
implying
> that. Rather, it appeared to me that he had found the statement of
> Constaninus Fuscus insulting. Secondly, this was a call for public
> debate; both Galerius Aurelianus and I participated in that public
> debate. I recognize -- as I assume all here do -- that
disagreement does
> not equal insult. That was the very point of my post. I was not
trying
> to insult anyone, nor did I feel that anyone was trying to insult
me (or
> anyone else, for that matter).
>
> I have seen a sort of "hair-trigger" propensity to
shout "flamewar!" in
> various non-NR venues in which I participate. I had hoped to avoid
that,
> and I greatly regret that my initial stroll into the forum of Nova
Roma
> had any uncomfortable result.
>
> Aulus Tullius Severus
>

Salve,

What no Agentes in Rebus or Frumentarii? :-)

Quintus Servilius Priscus

----- Message from spqr753@... ---------
    Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 03:40:42 -0000
    From: "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Debate
      To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com

> Salve Aulus Tullius Severus
>
> No "uncomfortable result." at all that I can see.
>
> You ( an everybody else) are free to "stroll into the forum of Nova
> Roma" any time you like. I have seen nothing in the current on

going

> debate that would qualify as a "flame war !"
>
> So please enjoy the debate and rest assured that if a flame war
> looks like it is about to flare up the Praetors will take steps to
> ensure that our "Corps of Vigiles " are on the job straight away.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Praetor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tribunus Plebis Marcus Arminius Maior Quiritibus SPD


Senate Voting Results, published on a.d. XVI Kal. Martias MMDCCLIX
A.U.C., or 14 february 2006 AD.

In 13th of february, the latest session of the Senate of Nova Roma was
declared closed by the Consul Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus, in which 33
of the 38 senatores voted, fulfilling the quorum needed for the session.

The voting consisted in seven items, two of them, of numbers IV and V,
being constitutional amendments, already voted and approved by the
Comitia Centuriata. Such constitutional amendments needed to have two
thirds of the votes of all the Senate, that is, at least 26 votes, so
the amendments can change our Constitution.

Here are the list of the voting Senators, alfabetically listed by nomen:

[MAGG] Marcus Antonius Gryllus Graecus
[SAS] Sextus Apollonius Scipio
[FAC] Franciscus Apulus Caesar
[MAM] Marcus Arminius Maior
[MBA] Marcus Bianchius Antonius
[PC] Patricia Cassia
[MCS] Manius Constantinus Serapio
[CCS] Caius Curius Saturninus
[ECF] Emilia Curia Finnica
[GEM] Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
[LECA] Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
[GFBM] Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
[CFBQ] Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
[QFM] Quintus Fabius Maximus
[CFD] Caius Flavius Diocletianus
[TGP] Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
[MIP] Marcus Iulius Perusianus
[DIPI] Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
[TLF] Titus Labienus Fortunatus
[LMS] Lucius Minicius Sceptius
[MMA] Marcus Minucius Audens
[GMHF] Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Felix
[PMS] Pompeia Minucia Strabo
[AMA] Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
[MOG] Marcus Octavius Germanicus
[TOPA] Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
[GPL] Gaius Popillius Laenas
[GSA] Gnaeus Salvius Astur
[JSM] Julilla Sempronia Magna
[LSA] Lucius Sergius Australicus
[QSP] Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
[ATMC] Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
[FVG] Flavius Vedius Germanicus

The following senatores failed to vote in this session:
[LAF] Lucius Arminius Faustus
[MCJ] Marcus Cassius Julianus
[LCSF] Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
[GL] Gaia Livia
[GMM] Gaius Marius Merullus


The items for consideration were as follows:

ITEM I: Approval of Marcus Iulius Severus as an Interpreter of Spanish
and French.

[MAGG] VTI ROGAS
[SAS] uti rogas.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS.
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] Uti Rogas.
[PC] Uti Rogas.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS
[CCS] Uti Rogas.
[ECF] Uti Rogas.
[GEM] VTI ROGAS
[LECA] Vti Rogas
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Uti Rogas.
[QFM] VTI ROGAS
[CFD] Uti Rogas
[TGP] VTI ROGAS
[MIP] VTI ROGAS
[DIPI] Uti Rogas.
[TLF] UTI ROGAS
[LMS] VTI•ROGAS
[MMA] YES
[GMHF] Uti Rogas.
[PMS] Uti Rogas.
[AMA] VTI ROGAS
[MOG] uti rogas.
[TOPA] Uti rogas.
[GPL] Uti Rogas.
[GSA] VTI ROGAS.
[JSM] VTI ROGAS
[LSA] Uti rogas
[QSP] uti rogas.
[ATMC] Uti Rogas
[FVG] Uti Rogas.

Results of Item I: Uti Rogas, 33 ; Antiquo, 0 ; Abstineo, 0.
The item passed unanimously.
Congratulations, Marcus Iulius Severus, Interpreter of Nova Roma.


ITEM II: Approval of Publius Constantinus Placidus as an Interpreter
of Italian.

[MAGG] VTI ROGAS
[SAS] uti rogas.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS.
I know him directly, a very skilled citizen.
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] Uti Rogas.
[PC] Uti Rogas.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS
[CCS] Uti Rogas.
[ECF] Uti Rogas.
[GEM] VTI ROGAS
[LECA] Vti Rogas
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Uti Rogas.
[QFM] VTI ROGAS
[CFD] Uti Rogas
[TGP] VTI ROGAS
[MIP] VTI ROGAS
[DIPI] Uti Rogas.
[TLF] UTI ROGAS
[LMS] VTI•ROGAS
[MMA] YES
[GMHF] Uti Rogas.
[PMS] Uti Rogas.
[AMA] VTI ROGAS
[MOG] uti rogas.
[TOPA] Uti rogas.
[GPL] Uti Rogas.
[GSA] VTI ROGAS.
[JSM] VTI ROGAS
[LSA] Uti rogas
[QSP] uti rogas.
[ATMC] Uti Rogas
[FVG] Uti Rogas.

Results of Item II: Uti Rogas, 33 ; Antiquo, 0 ; Abstineo, 0.
The item passed unanimously.
Congratulations, Publius Constantinus Placidius, Interpreter of Nova Roma.


ITEM III: Approval of Aulus Horatius Severus as Interpreter of Portuguese.

[MAGG] VTI ROGAS
[SAS] uti rogas.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] Uti Rogas.
[PC] Uti Rogas.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS
[CCS] Uti Rogas.
[ECF] Uti Rogas.
[GEM] VTI ROGAS
[LECA] Vti Rogas
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Uti Rogas.
I am very grateful that these three gentlemen are prepared to
give their time to the Res Publica!
[QFM] VTI ROGAS
[CFD] Uti Rogas
[TGP] VTI ROGAS
[MIP] VTI ROGAS
[DIPI] Uti Rogas.
[TLF] UTI ROGAS
[LMS] VTI•ROGAS
[MMA] YES
[GMHF] Uti Rogas.
I'd like to offer my thanks to these three individuals for
offering their services to NR as Interpreters. It is a difficult, and
I suspect sometimes thankless task that is vital for the functioning
of our Res Public as an international organization.
[PMS] Uti Rogas.
[AMA] VTI ROGAS
[MOG] uti rogas.
[TOPA] Uti rogas.
[GPL] Uti Rogas.
[GSA] VTI ROGAS.
[JSM] VTI ROGAS
[LSA] Uti rogas
[QSP] uti rogas.
[ATMC] Uti Rogas
[FVG] Uti Rogas.

Results of Item III: Uti Rogas, 33 ; Antiquo, 0 ; Abstineo, 0.
The item passed unanimously.
Congratulations, Aulus Horatius Severus, Interpreter of Nova Roma.


ITEM IV: Approval of Constitutional Amendment #1 from December 2005
Comitia Centuriata.

[MAGG] ABSTINEO
[SAS] uti rogas.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS.
The amendment gives us more possibilities to change the law.
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] ABSTINEO
[PC] Uti Rogas.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS
[CCS] Uti Rogas
[ECF] Uti Rogas.
[GEM] ABSTO
This amendment was put forth as part of an attempt to rectify the
problem we had with a tribunician resignation last year. However, its
original sponsors have not promoted it during this session of the
Senate, and I'm left wondering if they still support it.
[LECA] ANTIQUO.
This amendment would accomplish nothing.
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Uti Rogas.
Now the only thing we need to do is to change the law.
[QFM] ANTIQVO.
Gentlemen, as written, this implies that we can change the law
about a legally valid resignation. Since this allows the rewriting the
law & reasons every time we have a new consul, this accomplishes nothing.
[CFD] Antiquo
[TGP] ANTIQUO.
The current standard is higher and should remain in place.
[MIP] ABSTINEO
[DIPI] Antiquo
[TLF] ANTIQUO
[LMS] ABSTINEO
[MMA] NO
[GMHF] Antiquo.
The change strikes me as unnecessary.
[PMS] Uti Rogas
[AMA] ABSTINEO
[MOG] ANTIQUO.
The amendment accomplishes nothing; it complicates the text
needlessly. You could similarly add "legally valid" before almost
every noun in the Constitution - what's the point? If a registration
isn't "legally valid", then it isn't a resignation, so that part of
the Constitution would not apply. There is no need to restate the
obvious. Furthermore, having "legally valid" and "as defined by
pursuant law" is reduedant - what else would "legally valid" be
defined by?
[TOPA] Uti rogas.
[GPL] Abstineo.
[GSA] ABSTINEO
[JSM] ABSTINEO
[LSA] Antiquo
[QSP] ANTIQUO.
I agree that the text is better and less complicated as it stands
now.
[ATMC] Uti Rogas
[FVG] Uti Rogas.

Results of Item IV: Uti Rogas, 13 ; Antiquo, 11 ; Abstineo, 9.
The item failed. A constitutional amendment needed 26 votes to be
approved, and received only 13.


ITEM V: Approval of Constitutional Amendment #2 from December 2005
Comitia Centuriata.

[MAGG] VTI ROGAS
[SAS] uti rogas.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS.
I think it would quite uncomfortable to by-pass what the Comitia
approved in the last December and I don't see any problem with this
proposal.
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] ABSTINEO
[PC] Abstineo.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS
[CCS] Abstineo
[ECF] Abstineo.
[GEM] VTI ROGAS.
This amendment will significantly ease the duties of the
webmaster, moving us away from a past policy and supporting our
established policy of basing assignment in the rural tribes on assidui
status.
[LECA] Absto
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Abstineo.
The reason we make this change is that some of us want to prepare
a Constitutional change that I am not sure I agree with. Let us do it
the right way instead, let us discuss the Constitutional change first.
[QFM] ANTIQVO.
Call me conservative. But every time we change something more
problems appear.
[CFD] Antiquo
[TGP] ANTIQUO.
[MIP] ABSTINEO
[DIPI] Abstineo.
[TLF] ABSTINEO
[LMS] ABSTINEO
[MMA] YES
[GMHF] Uti Rogas.
[PMS] Abstain
After some thought, and entertaining the wisdom of those of this
august body who offered their views, I too, would like to take a more
comprehensive look at the full ramifications of this.
[AMA] ABSTINEO
[MOG] uti rogas
A sensible change, and one that eliminates some 'paperwork'.
[TOPA] Abstineo.
The amendment implicates some further changes I am unwilling to
support. I believe Nova Roma needs full-time Censors and our current
system with overlapping two-year terms doesn't need fixing.
[GPL] Abstineo.
[GSA] ABSTINEO
[JSM] ABSTINEO
[LSA] Antiquo
[QSP] uti rogas
A good change and it looks easier to manage on the paper work end.
[ATMC] Uti Rogas
[FVG] Antiquo.

Results of Item V: Uti Rogas, 12 ; Antiquo, 5 ; Abstineo, 16.
The item failed. A constitutional amendment needed 26 votes to be
approved, and received only 12.


ITEM VI: Grant of permission to citizen Caius Curius Saturninus to use
the Nova Roma logo, and text of "The Official Nova Roma Calendar" in a
printed Roman wall calendar for 2006 and 2007.

[MAGG] VTI ROGAS
[SAS] uti rogas.
I got two calendars myself. This is just great.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS.
Wonderful calendar.
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] Uti Rogas.
[PC] Uti Rogas.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS.
Congratulations for the calendar!
[CCS] Uti Rogas.
[ECF] Uti Rogas.
[GEM] VTI ROGAS.
[LECA] Vti Rogas
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Uti Rogas.
The Calendar is beautiful, I bought one to myself and a couple
more to give away. This is a splendid initiative, well worth our support!
[QFM] VTI ROGAS.
I hope this is a successful venture for Curius.
[CFD] Uti Rogas
[TGP] VTI ROGAS.
[MIP] VTI ROGAS
[DIPI] Uti Rogas.
[TLF] UTI ROGAS
[LMS] VTI•ROGAS.
In Hispania we made a Wall Calendar for 2758 A•V•C that was an
example for some students and scholars. This idea is quite good and
deserves to be backed from here.
[MMA] Abstain.
For those who have a problem with this decision, it means to me
that I am unwilling to cast either a NO or YES vote to this measure.
My reasoning in this matter I should be glad to share with anyone
interested on a personal basis.
[GMHF] Uti Rogas.
Good initiative!
[PMS] Uti Rogas.
[AMA] VTI ROGAS
[MOG] uti rogas.
This is exactly the sort of initiative we should see more of.
[TOPA] Uti rogas.
Caius Curius Saturninus continually displays great initiative,
and I applaud him for it.
[GPL] Uti Rogas.
[GSA] Uti Rogas.
[JSM] VTI ROGAS
[LSA] Uti rogas
[QSP] uti rogas.
A great idea and an educational tool that will provoke many
questions when displayed in a home or office.
[ATMC] Uti Rogas.
I would love to get a couple of these.
[FVG] Uti Rogas.

Results of Item VI: Uti Rogas, 32 ; Antiquo, 0 ; Abstineo, 1.
The item passed.


ITEM VII: Elysium Gathering (September 21, 2006 until September 24,
200-6), an event in Ohio, shall be officially co-sponsored by Nova
Roma. Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus, the event coordinator of Elysium
Gathering, shall be the contact person between the event and Nova Roma.

[MAGG] VTI ROGAS
[SAS] uti rogas.
[FAC] VTI ROGAS.
If the sponsorship would require no money to NR, it's ok for me.
On contrary a financial report is required.
[MAM] Uti Rogas.
[MBA] Uti Rogas.
[PC] Uti Rogas.
[MCS] VTI ROGAS
I vote Vti Rogas as I read that at this point no money is
required from Nova Roma. I've nothing against allocating funds for
real life events, I just ask that should money be required a detailed
request is submitted to the Senate, like for the Conventus. My best
wishes to our Consul for the organization of this event!
[CCS] Uti Rogas.
[ECF] Uti Rogas.
[GEM] VTI ROGAS.
[LECA] Vti Rogas
[GFBM] Uti Rogas.
[CFBQ] Uti Rogas.
Nova Roma should be more about RL events and this is a good step
in the right direction! Well done Consul!
[QFM] ANTIQVO.
Sponsorship usually means money expended for advertising, and
event insurance bought. Neither is accounted for in the budget I reviewed.
[CFD] Uti Rogas
[TGP] VTI ROGAS
[MIP] VTI ROGAS
[DIPI] Uti Rogas.
[TLF] UTI ROGAS
[LMS] VTI•ROGAS.
I'm looking forward for the Hadrian Wall event of August, which
should be also co-sponsored by NR.
[MMA] YES.
[GMHF] Uti Rogas.
I attended last years Elysium Gathering, which included a ritual
to Pomona and a ritual to Minerva, and can say without reservations
that this is an excellent event that NR should be proud to co-sponsor.
[PMS] Uti Rogas.
[AMA] VTI ROGAS
[MOG] uti rogas.
This is a highly visible, real-world event.
[TOPA] Uti rogas.
[GPL] Uti Rogas.
[GSA] Uti Rogas.
[JSM] VTI ROGAS
[LSA] Uti rogas
[QSP] uti rogas.
This is what I hope we are about in the near future!
[ATMC] Uti Rogas.
I will give serious consideration to attending if a reasonable
number of Nova Romans are going.
[FVG] Uti Rogas.

Results of Item VII: Uti Rogas, 32 ; Antiquo, 1 ; Abstineo, 0.
The item passed.


Salvete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Tribunus Plebis

> A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo amico A. Tullio Seuero quiritibus,
> sociis, peregrinisque omnibus S.P.D.
>
> Cn. Cornelius Lentulus sodalis sodalitatis Latinitatis A. Tullio Severo
> salutem dicit:
>
>>>> >>> Likewise, I am a Latinist and I suppose there may yet be useful
> information to be had at the Latin sodalitas, which I admit I have not
> yet explored. But again, that is one potential source among many out
> there in cyberspace. <<<
>
> Because of my incomplete English I don't understand wheter you didn't
> explore the Latin sodalitas or didn't explore that there is useful information
> there.
>
> ATS: I think he means that he hasn¹t explored the Sodalitas Latinitatis
> because he thinks there might not be useful information there. Do you think
> that the presence of two world class Latinists and a host of other good ones
> might provide some useful information? I do.
>
>
> In the first case, there is the URL of our Sodalitas Latinitatis:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/
>
> There you will be most wellcome!
>
> ATS: Indeed, A. Tullius Seuerus will be most welcome in the sodalitas‹and
> between young Tullius Rufus, Tullius Seuerus, and me, perhaps we could get the
> gens Tullia to be known for its classical scholars.
>
> In the second case, you have to ask questions there and you will see if
> there is any useful information available at our sodalitas.
>
> ATS: The sodalitas Latinitas is certainly humming now! There¹s nothing
> quiet there, though thank heavens we are now back to our normal lively
> academic discussions rather than less pleasant ones which recently intruded on
> our intellectual pursuits.
>
> Vale quam optime, collega Latinista!
>
> Item!
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
> Classicist
> Moderatrix Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Interpres Linguae Latinae
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> Q U A E S T O R
> -------------------------------
> Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> Provincial Sacerdos
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae Senior
> Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Apollonius Flavio Galerio omnibusque sal.

Flavi Galeri, I'm afraid I find it very difficult to
read your reply since there's no marking which makes
clear which sections are your own statements and which
are quotations from mine.

As far as I can tell your tone is pretty hostile but
in substance you don't disagree with me to any
significant extent. All I'm suggesting to you is that
simply reducing the size of the constitution is not
likely to solve the problem in the long term. The huge
quantity of legislation is a symptom of an underlying
problem and it can't be made to go away simply by
saying that we should stop legislating.

The reason we generate a lot of legislation is that
there is a widespread assumption that legislation is
the only source of binding obligation in Nova Roma,
and therefore if you want to make people behave in a
certain way you have to write a lex telling them to do
so. This is the underlying problem, and as long as it
persists we will inevitably have a lot of legislation.

The alternative, I suggest to you, is to change that
underlying mindset and to accept that we should regard
ancient constitutional practice and principle as
binding in itself, without the need for any further
legislation by us. A large amount of our current
legislation is covering things which were already very
comprehensively covered by the ancient Romans. This
could be avoided if people were simply prepared to
regard ancient laws and customs as automatically
binding in and of themselves. Then we would only need
to legislate on subjects which were not covered at all
by the ancient Romans or on subjects where we
specifically want to do things differently from how
they were done back then.





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