G. Iulius Scaurus G. Livio Crasso SPD.

It's not a dopey question at all. The problem is that the answer is
extremely complex and not entirely fleshed out by classical sources.
I agree with Censor Marinus that Cicero's _De Divinatione_is useful,
although more for the first book where Cicero's brother is laying out
the reasons for believing in auguries than the second where Cicero
debunks the notion of augury on philosophical grounds. However there
are several dozen other references in classical sources which are
rather more detailed in providing guidance for interpretation of
particular avian and celestial signa. I have been working for some
time on collecting and translating such sources and hope to have a
compendium for the Collegium Augurum completed this summer.

Vale.

Scaurus

G. Iulius Scaurus Ti. Africano Secundo. Flaminino SPD.

I suppose my initial reaction is: why would you want to?

The Christian tradition is rather firm on monotheism (aside the
tripartite persons question, which I regard as badly-parsed Middle
Platonism on ousia in the hands of not terribly well-educated bishops
at Nicaea -- from a philosophical perspective Arius was rather more
elegant), which rules out what you suggest from the start. Certainly
historically Christianity has done a great deal of borrowing from
polytheistic culture in antiquity -- it was, after all, the
environment in which all gentile and many Jewish Christians were
raised and it only makes sense that cultural accretions developed.
And, no doubt, there were apologetic reasons behind some of
Christianity's attempts to appropriate polytheist festivals and
symbols. But all of that is separate and apart from the doctrinal
commitment to monotheism, which seems a constant from Christianity's
beginning.

As a practitioner of the Religio Romana, I would look on any attempt
to meld polytheism and Christianity as an impietas because of
Christianity's implacable attempts to destroy the Religio in
antiquity. I don't ascribe such behaviour to all Christians in Nova
Roma -- Cato has broadened my appreciation for Christians who are
supportive of the fundamental purpose of NR being reconstruction of
the Religio -- but the idea of conflating Christianity and Roman
polytheism is too much like Jews celebrating Hitler's birthday for me
to have any ease with it.

Vale.

Scaurus

Salve,

I just received the new Roman Calendar today that I ordered through
Caius Curius Saturninus. It look's fantastic. Anyone else got theirs?
If so, what do you think of it?

Vale,

Quintus Servilius Priscus

G. Iulius Scaurus F. Galerio Aureliano SPD.

I think there's a simple enough reason -- we can dearly about the
Religio and these issues matter greatly to us. When people
fundamentally disagree over things which matter to them, argument gets
intense.

I am forever bemused at the image people have of the Boni as
monolithic while they still existed. I have spent more hours arguing
with Sulla, Maximus, and Drusus than with anyone else in NR. I
suppose it's a case of the devil being in the details even if there is
broad agreement about generalities.

I have tried to keep my remarks here and in the Collegium moderate in
this controversy, but what I think is moderate is not likely to be
what someone else thinks is. And by classical Roman standards things
haven't really gotten hot yet -- no one's started screaming "Mentula!"
or "Fellator!" at anyone else and there is ample evidence that such
things were not uncommon in the original forum.

Vale.

Scaurus

M. Hortensia Quritibus spd;
well lots of opinions but few facts. Christianity already
celebrates the birth date December 25th of Mithras, all kinds of gods
who are now saints (Brigid of Ireland for one), performing pompa -
religious processions and lavatio- ritual washing of statues, relic
worship. The making of statues and pictures. The idea of Heaven, Hell
come from both Greece and Iran, not Judaea which had a kind of dreary
Sheol. Also angels and messiahs derive from Zoroastrian Iran, as well
as early monotheism. Ahura Mazda was the only God.

Do read Fergus Millar "The Roman Near East" and Warwick Ball "Rome in
the East" for scholarly history.

Judaeans as Warwick Ball pointed out were extremely conservative and
hated Herod, who was the restorer of the Temple for being an
Hellenizer and Romanizer. Judaism then followed Leviticus and the
rites of Temple sacrifice . The Pharisees were and are still a Jewish
ideal of observance of the law. The decalogue, ritual purification,
rules of diet, and as many laws as possible from Leviticus are still
followed today. Even to resting the land every 7th year in some places
in Israel.

Greek thought eventually penetrated Judaism via the Talmud, so we find
demonology, Kabbalism, ideas of reincarnation, and ritual magic, which
entered the Christian West.

As I said there are excellent scholarly books dealing with this topic,
I'm happy to discuss them.
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

I would look on any attempt

> to meld polytheism and Christianity -- but the idea of conflating

Christianity and Roman

> polytheism is too much like Jews celebrating Hitler's birthday for me
> to have any ease with it.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>

Salvete, Corneliae:

>
> I like your suggestion, care Galeri Aureliane, and I myself thought
> of this more than once, but I had to realize the problem that my gens,
> which once was big and flourishing and one of the most active gentes:
> today is sleeping deeply.
>

Lucius Cornelius Malacitanus is alive and here, for whatever other
people of the gens need.

The webpage of the gens is broken (if you think that it would be
interesting, I can create a web page and/or a mailing list for the gens)

Waking up our gens is up to us. If there is enough people of the gens
interested, I volunteer to help on it.


Yours:


Lucius Cornelius Malacitanus

G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana L. Equiti Cincinnati Augur
omnibusque SPD.


--- In Post # 42249:

>
> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus salutem dicit
>
> Salvete,

<big snip>

> * - The precise formulae of the caerimoniae of the sacrifices
> of the Feria Equirriae are unknown, but it is likely that they
> followed the general form of most propritiatory sacrifices of
> the ritus Romanus, as suggested here. Since Nova Roma is not
> in the position to offer animal sacrifices at this time, the
> Flamen Martialis will offer a non-animal sacrifice for the
> feria.
>
>
> Valete

It is with utmost respect to the CP that I make the following
comments.

In the Japanese scheme of things, it was formerly the custom to
offer horses to the Shinto shrines, as one of the most esteemed
offerings (which only the very wealthy could afford to own, and
especially, to give away). Over time, this practice changed to
offering a sculpture of a horse (a lovely full-sized one can be
seen at a shrine in Tomo-no-ura, outside Fukuyama City in
Hiroshima prefecture). As resources continued to decline, the
sculptures became plaques, the animals rendered in small
paintings.

I am wondering if NR might find some resonance with this practice.
It may seem that originally the time, material and expense of
preparing the sacrificial animals demonstrated the commitment
of the community or person making the sacrifice. If so, could
custom artwork, suitably prepared and presented, serve as a
modern variation on blood sacrifice?

This might also be a way to engage those cives with the necessary
artistic skills, in a project bridging the Populus and the
Pontificate. The most recent debates would seem to indicate that
such bridging might be helpful.

In the interest of avoiding another flame war / hot debate,
these comments are just that--comments. I am not pretending
to give direction of any kind, to anyone, especially not to the
CP. These few thoughts are tossed onto the ether for general
reflection.

Vale, et valete omnes, in pace Deorum

G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana

A. Apollonius Cn. Lentulo omnibusque sal.

> ... The
> instrument he adopted was probalbly unconstitutional
> in our view, but was not in the view of the ancient
> Romans: they would see it to be problematic or
> questionable, but not against the unwritten
> constitution. Namly according to this unwritten
> constitution Consuls have all the power, the power
> to do anything they think to be necessary for the
> betterment of the State (except issuing laws)...

Without wishing to re-open the debate, amice, I would
just like to make two points on this.

First, I'm overjoyed to hear you express, quite
independently, the very same doctrine I have been
privately urging on various people for the last year
or so: underlying our written constitution is, as you
say, an unwritten one which is the true constitution
of the ancient republic. It's this which, in my view,
would remain and would support our republic if we were
to repeal the current lex constitutiva, as I would
like us to; and until then we should all wherever
possible adhere to *both* constitutions. So on that
point I completely agree.

Secondly, I think you have misrepresented, or perhaps
misunderstood, at least some of the criticism of the
consul's action. Some of it, including mine, was based
to a great extent on the unwritten, historical
constitution. It is in my view absolutely incorrect to
say that "according to this unwritten constitution
Consuls have all the power, the power to do anything
they think to be necessary for the betterment of the
State". Specifically I do not think you will be able
to find any evidence whatsoever that a consul of the
ancient republic ever attempted to intervene in a
dispute about the membership of one of the priestly
collegi. I have no doubt that the ancient consules had
no power to do, and would never have done, what C.
Buteo did. nor is it correct to say, as you said
elsewhere in your message, that under the ancient
constitution a consul's edictum was law: a
magistrate's edictum was merely a statement of policy
and had no binding force in and of itself.

You may or may not agree with my understanding of the
ancient constitution, but my point is that it is quite
wrong to represent this argument as an argument
between the upholders of the written constitution and
the upholders of the unwritten constitution: it is
perfectly possible to criticise the consul's action on
the basis of ancient tradition and constitutional practice.



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A. Apollonius Flavio Galerio Cn. Lentulo omnibus sal.

I quite agree with you on this, and indeed it has
troubled me deeply that many people perceived the
recent reform of gentes and familiae as somehow saying
that gentes should not feel any sense of kinship or
should never have any common activities. This is
absolutely not what that legislation said, although I
admit that the way it was implemented did in some
respects give that impression.

In any case, I've been doing a little research to try
to counteract the trend, and in a few days I'll try to
summarize my suggestions for ways in which gentes
could, if they should wish, strengthen their internal
bonds in a traditional Roman way without resorting to
the kind of unhistorical nonsense which the recent
reforms sought to remove.



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A. Apollonius C. Julio omnibusque sal.

> I am forever bemused at the image people have of the
> Boni as
> monolithic while they still existed. I have spent
> more hours arguing
> with Sulla, Maximus, and Drusus than with anyone
> else in NR. I
> suppose it's a case of the devil being in the
> details even if there is
> broad agreement about generalities.

To me this has a lot to do with political parties and
the mentality of groups. It suits a political group to
justify its existence by reference to the existence of
some other group to which it claims too provide a
counter-balance. The 'Boni' established themselves in
reaction to another perceived group, now long defunct;
the Libra party and the 'Moderati' both established
themselves in reaction to the 'Boni'.

Thus it suits the Libripentes, as we might call them,
or at least it suits those of them who want their
party to be a highly organized political machine, to
portray the 'Boni' as a highly organized political
machine which can only be stopped by another such
machine. Similarly no doubt members of the 'Boni' have
in the past found it useful to regard their opponents
as an organized and systematic party. And in the end,
as modern history shows, this is a road which leads,
by way of a constant escalation, to the sort of
political parties we have in many modern countries.

Personally I'm satisfied that neither of the two
formal political groups we currently have is as
monolithic or as organized as the other tends to
imagine. But I have to say that I don't think the
members of those groups should be surprised to be
portrayed in this way. If you join a group which
claims to have a specific political agenda and has its
own name, its own e-mail lists, and so on, one must
expect to be regarded as a member of a political party
with all that entails. By far the best way for these
groups to show that they are not the monoliths they
are said to be is for them to formally disband.





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C. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve et salvete!

Ah, Marca Hortensia, you know I love you dearly :-)

But as I pointed out (and Scaurus also underlined), the physical rites
and rituals, the vestments, even the accretion of specific festivals
falling at specific times --- all these were adapted or taken directly
from things that existed as Christinity developed. The vestments of
the Orthodox Church (and the Roman Catholic and High Anglican
churches) are merely adaptations of various pieces of Roman and
Byzantine imperial court dress, imbued with "sacred" symbology. The
Nativity, the Epiphany, the Transfiguration, the Ascension, even (to a
lesser degree) the Resurrection, all have counterparts in the
practices and beliefs of the ancient world. This is not even a question.

Pontifex Graecus, and tribune Piscinus & I have, on the Religio List,
noted some remarkable similiarities in certain types of religious
thought between practitioners and non-practitioners; this does not,
however, affect the basic contradiction between the religio and
Christianity: the absolute and inflexible belief in a single True God.
It is that fundamental belief, inextricably bound to the revelation,
in Jesus Christ, of that sole Deity in human flesh as the only way for
the Divine and human to touch each other, that marks the watershed
between Christianity and every other faith.

As a non-practitioner yet a citizen, I can appreciate artistically,
metaphorically, and historically, the beauty and pageant and (to be
quite honest) sheer fun of the great stories of the gods and their
exploits. The religio forms one (of several) common bonds among
citizens, and to recognize it as vital to the health of the Republic
is important. A key concept is the ability of us, here and now, to be
able to work and live within the Republic without the bigotry and
hatred that inspired so much tragic activity across the centuries,
both on the part of a furious series of hideous persecutions by
non-Christian authorities and the savagely immoral acts of the
Christian Church after it finally came to power.

As a Christian, I have to ask myself, "Can I in good conscience aid
those for whom the religio is their home, their comfort, their guide,
while still maintaining the belief required by my God? Can I support
a structure part of whose framework is in direct contradiction to the
basic tenet of my faith?" The answer, after long and careful thought,
is "yes."

First, the founders of the Republic, to their great credit, did not
impose the necessity of belief upon us. The religio, unlike
Christianity, is not founded upon an orthodoxic creed or set of
doctrines which must be held internally. It is orthopractic in
nature, and in that is both its great strength and one of its
weaknesses. Sttength because anyone can perform the necessary motions
of the rituals required and thereby satisfy the demands of the gods to
whom they are addressed --- without having to believe in those gods.
Weakness because there is no truly "evangelical" aspect to the
religio; unlike Chritianity, it does not have a command or a
doctrinally-based desire to "go ye into all the world and preach...",
and this can hamper its expansion.

Second, on a cultural and historic level, I can appreciate the desire
to see a part of our common Western heritage restored. In my
apartment, I have a statue of the Madonna and Child, and several ikons
of Christ, the Theotokos, and (of course) the Archangel St. Michael.
I also have statues of the gods Thoth, Anubis, Apollo, Hermes,
Iuppiter, and the goddess Diana. Do I defile my faith by having
these? No. The ikons represent the faith upon which I base my life;
the statuers of the various gods (and goddess) represent a part of my
cultural heritage as a Western human being. I can respect the
artistry, the faith, the passion that went into the beliefs which
created these images of the ancient gods without having to change my
internal beliefs.

To use a more...saecular image: do I really believe that a Roman toga
is the very best possible garment to wear in New York City on a
January night? Not on your life. It's "hello frostbite" time. But
*will* I wear one when eating and drinking and socializing with fellow
citizens? Yes. Because we have made a conscious decision to restore
a part of our history that is best served by putting ourselves as
closely in tune with the mindset of our ancestors as possible. It is
not "play acting", it is very real. To put on their style of clothes
creates an emotional (and physical) bond with them; to greet each
other with our Roman names, to discuss the politics of our Republic,
all of these things add to our growing corpus of experience and
romanitas. The observance of the religio, for a non-practitioner (at
least this one), is one more bond which holds us together.

Oh my God I've rambled forever. That's what happens when you have the
day off :-)

Sorry to go on so long. I hope you can glean the wheat from the chaff
here.

Vale et valete,

Cato

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, darren_pile wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> This might seem like a dopey question but how are the augeries
> taken? I appreciate that it's about watching the flight of birds
> i.e. how high / low and what direction they're flying etc, but what
> are the good or bad signs?
>
> Does one divide the sky up and say if birds enter a certain section
> then that's a good sign or conversely a bad sign?

That's one of the functions of the lituus -- the twisty staff an augur
bore. Procedure: go to a good observation point (obviously you want a
good unobstructed view of the sky), take a stance and with the lituus draw
a line from zenith to horizon. This defines "right" and "left" for the
purpose of telling whether a bird appears on left or right, or is flying L
to R or vice-vers. If I recall correctly (it's been several
reincarnations) the left is unfavorable, the right favorable. The number
and type of bird is also of significance -- eagles, vultures (oracular
birds because they kill nothing living) and crows and ravens (because
their cry of "cras" means "tomorrow") are especially signiicant. But the
refinements of augury by flight of birds is a subject for one of the
augurs, as well as the details of other omens.

> I am aware that the ancient Romans kept sacred chickens which they
> gave special cakes and if the chickens ate them furiously then this
> was supposedly a good sign but I know nothing about the flight of
> birds.

And it wasn't fair to fool the chickens, either. Remember the Roman
Admiral who was preparing to engage the enemy and was told by his augur
that the sacred chickens would not eat? He answered "then let them
drink!" and threw them into the sea.

Unfortunately for this act of resistance, the Carthaginian fleet promptly
stomped the (bleep) out of him.

Be in health!
-- Publius Livius Triarius

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Maior wrote:

> M. Hortensia T. Africano Secundo Fmainiano spd;
> this may suprise you but Christianity is the direct child of
> the syncretic Roman Empire. It always shocks me (being Jewish) how
> ill-informed people are!

This is a really surprising statement. The contrast between the tolerant
syncretism of the Romans and the exclusive, intolerant policies of the
Christians could hardly be more marked -- until later the Christians
gained the power to persecute, which showed the remaining Pagans that they
had just _thought_ the Christians were intolerant earlier.

> Here are two excellent historical backgrounds "The Roman
> Near East" by Fergus Millar, Harvard University Press, 1993, and
> Warwick Ball "Rome in the East" Routledge, 2000.
> Ball is a Near Eastern specialist & archeologist and makes
> fascinating points about the influence of Zoroastrianism (not
> Judaism) on Christianity, as well as the syncretic mix. Egyptian
> ascetics, pre-Christian stylites (Dea Syria). Icons of Isis and
> Hathor the prototypes for Madonna and child. And perhhaps Buddhism
> for relic worship.

But many of these were instances of the Christian practice of taking over
the observations of earlier religions, to make new converts comfortable by
allowing them to follow the forms they had been used to. (Augustine, I
believe, gave explicit instructions on this policy.) This reached a sort
of apogee in the Christian explanation for the ability of pagan gods to
perform miracles just as the Christians claimed to do: namely, that the
Devil made them do it.


[Titus Africanus asked:]

>>Could we combine those two different religious concepts into a
>> large synthesis of Pagano-christian, unique western system? I
>> beleive these questions are important to all of us, not only to us
>> westerners, but also to others, who identify the west as a single
>> cultural identity. Who do we want to be? This means that we must
>> identify a precise cosmology.
>>
>> I would like to view your inputs on the question. Can Paganism
>> and Christianity be synthesized?

Yes and no. Christianity has, historically, simply taken over pagan
practices, but to such an extent that the official position is to deny
that they are, or were, pagan in origin. I can still remember the
explosion that I provoked on the Mithras list by commenting on the
identification of the blue-clad Madonna-and-Child images with the old
statues of the blue-clad Isis-and-Horus. I suppose the answer to the
question would be that the synthesis is already known to those who are
willing to see it, but that there is a faction of True Believers who
genuinely cling to the idea that the Christian cosmology is the only one
which can be allowed.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
mka Dick Eney

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus T. Africano Secundo sal.:

>>> Can Paganism and Christianity be synthesized? <<<

Absolutely. But the result will be a new religion, not the Traditional Roman one, nor the Christianity. I myself am one who synthesized them, but this is not the time when I explain it in this forum. I have to prepare myself to this because to explain it is quite difficult for me who am not a native speaker.

Briefly:

Pagan gods are not gods in the Jew, Christian or Muslim understanding of that concept, they are rather "angels". The Christian Only True God, however, is the Fatum, the Fate, the Destiny if we want to define him by the pagan terminology. Ancients thought there was a higher being than gods, a Supreme Being, the Fate, who ruled even the gods themselves. Sometimes it was identified with Juppiter, sometimes was said that was more than Juppiter. Philosophers also discussed there was only one God and the gods were only "different aspects" of the one God. According to my personal beleif, the pagan gods are identical with the Judeo-Christian angels, just with other names, other mithology.

Anyway, we have to recognize that pagan gods were thought as much more lesser being than the Jew or Christian or Islam God. Pagan gods were never definied as almighty! Juppiter is not almighty, even if sometimes he is called so: this is only a blandishment: "Juppiter Omnipotens" -- it's simply not true, I think everybody who knows the ancient mythology knows that Juppiter or Mars or Saturnus or any other god was not omnipotent. Gods never even created the world! Then who did it create? The Very God, or as the Greeks said: "Ho Dios".

The idea, the concept of a Supreme Power was always present in the ancient Graeco-Roman world and ancients (at least the philosophers) thought that this Supreme Being created the World, the gods, the men and everything is in its/his power. The Supreme Being is the "Fatum" which means the same like "Verbum": "word, verb". Just like Jesus Christ.

Sok, if we accept the idea of ancient polytheist philosophers that there is a "Supreme Being" and that this is a god, then the polytiectical gods are not gods. There would be so much difference between an omnipotent, almighty, world-creator God and those several, function-specialized and various gods, that we have to state that the two kinds of deity are not the same. If the one is god, the other is a different concept. So I think the real God can be only the Supreme Being, but both deity can be called and named as "god", just by respect, by tradition, and because there is no better word. We just have to realize that these are two different divine entity, and that the one is equal-level with the Christian or other monotheistic God, and the other is lower-level than the monotheistic God, and we can compare with the various angels in the monotheistic religions.

So I think there is a plenty of rope to make a sythesis of the Traditional Roman Religion and the monotheist religions. However, in my veiw, we have to separate them in practice. When I conduct a Roman sacrifice I never mention Jesus Christ or the Only God -- as ancient philosophers who thought there was a "Ho Dios", "a Supreme Omnipotent God" when conducted a public sacrifice did never prayed this "True God" but the "ordinary" gods. Privetly, at home, anybody could pray the Supreme God according to one's beleif.

Vale!





Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris C. Minucii Hadriani Felicis
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Sodalis Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Flaminine!

Personally I don't think that Christianity and Paganism can be
synthesised. Even if they could I'm not at all sure that it would be
a good idea. I'm certainly all in favour of brotherly love but I
think Christianity has tended, on the whole to foster division and
intolerance. That, I'm afraid is its main legacy to Europe. Much the
same could be said for other exclusivist religions.

Now, having said this I don't want to sound too pessimistic. I do
accept that Europe needs to build some sort of cultural concensus
that can stand firm in the face of competition from other
civilisations. Just to be clear, I don't necessarily see us in
opposition to Islam, China or the US for that matter. Indeed I would
rather cooperate with these other cultures to produce ultimately a
better world for us all.

The question is what form should such a European culture take. I
think the Christian model is washed out as ,perhaps unfortunately, is
the socialist one. I personally dislike free-market capitalism
intensely but would favour a kind of secularism where individual
rights are protected and social justice prevails. I think such a
situation would - over a period of time - allow a return to more
natural forms of religion rooted, not in the Middle East, but in
Europe itself. It is in the re-establishment of the many forms of
European paganism that our hope lies! However, as for "precision" I
feel we have had a bit too much of this over the last two millenia.
Maybe we should let things stay a bit frayed at the edges.

Vale

Caius Moravius Brutus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rocknrockabilly" <franceuropa@...>
wrote:

>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Since a member of the gens Cornelius raised the question, I would
> also like to know if there is any active member of the gens
> Africanus Secundus. Does our gens observe or celebrate any specific
> religious festivals?
>
> This brings me to my second point. European (western) history

has

> been characterized by two very different (but not necessarly
> opposed) religious conceptions, implying equally different
> worldviews: ancient paganism and chritianity.
>
> Most of us Roman citizens are familiar with the religion of our
> Ancestor, backbone of the Classical civilization. We know that from
> it sprang philosophy, rationalism, humanism, etc.
>
> I believe that most of us are also very familiar with the

latter

> religious concept, Christianity. From medieval Christianity (which
> was in many ways the successor and continuation of the Roman
> imperial authority), sprang universalism and brotherly love.
>
> Those two religious philosophies are sometimes so apart that

the

> Christian concepts supported a culture and worldview opposed to the
> Classical one; in other words, a new civilization. Yet the Pagan
> religion has left us immense temples: the temple of reason, of
> philosophy, and of humanism. Neither classical paganism nor
> Christianity cannot be swept aside if we want to understand the
> modern Western cosmology.
>
> In the current geopoitical context, what do these two religious
> heritages mean? At the European level, no mention of any of these
> religious views exist officially (think about the failed
> Constitution). Internationally, with the rise of Islam and the
> Confucian-oriented culture of China, what does it mean to be a
> westerner?
>
> Could we combine those two different religious concepts into a
> large synthesis of Pagano-christian, unique western system? I
> beleive these questions are important to all of us, not only to us
> westerners, but also to others, who identify the west as a single
> cultural identity. Who do we want to be? This means that we must
> identify a precise cosmology.
>
> I would like to view your inputs on the question. Can Paganism
> and Christianity be synthesized?
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Titus Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
>

Valetudo quod fortuna,

On 2/28/06, G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana wrote:
> [excision]
>
> I am wondering if NR might find some resonance with this practice.
> It may seem that originally the time, material and expense of
> preparing the sacrificial animals demonstrated the commitment
> of the community or person making the sacrifice. If so, could
> custom artwork, suitably prepared and presented, serve as a
> modern variation on blood sacrifice?
>
> [excision]

I have done a little study on the topic of sacrifice within religions.

My own faithway's main ritual is called Blót (pronounced like bloat).
The word is from the same root as blood. In elder times, the worshipful
sacrifice was indeed the life of an animal, which was ritually slaughtered

Sometimes the slaughter was that of a human criminal.

Such sacrifices exist in the history of most any religion having
autochthonic roots.

The flesh of the animal slain during such a Blót is thereafter cooked
and shared with the folk and the Holy during a feast known as Husel.
The Gods' portion being consigned to the fire after the feasting.

Onto the main point of the post to which I am replying.

Modes of Offering to the Holy do change over the millenia.

Votive or Effigy offerings are well-known from antiquity.

It is my considered opinion that the Holy Powers will accept a well-done,
rightly intentioned piece of art as an offering much more readily than
a blood offering done badly and with wrong headedness.

Most often, when I stand Offering before my Gods and Goddesses,
I will Offer Drink that I have made: mead, ale, wine...

These are things, which the thoughts of my head, the passion of my heart
and the skill of my hands have brought from raw materials to finished
product.

I have, through this drink, sacrificed a bit of myself to the Holy.

I believe They smile on such.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/

F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.


[A. Apollonius Flavio Galerio Cn. Lentulo omnibus sal.

I quite agree with you on this, and indeed it has
troubled me deeply that many people perceived the
recent reform of gentes and familiae as somehow saying
that gentes should not feel any sense of kinship or
should never have any common activities. This is
absolutely not what that legislation said, although I
admit that the way it was implemented did in some
respects give that impression.

In any case, I've been doing a little research to try
to counteract the trend, and in a few days I'll try to
summarize my suggestions for ways in which gentes
could, if they should wish, strengthen their internal
bonds in a traditional Roman way without resorting to
the kind of unhistorical nonsense which the recent
reforms sought to remove.]
FGA: The Galeri mostly ignored the change in the laws and kept up the with our practice that Helena Galeri Aureliana was our materfamilias and we were all cousins of a great Plebeian gens. I am sure that you will perform whatever research well. Regardless of what the laws may say, the best way for NR families and clans to communicate is one on one interaction by telephone, email, and personal visit. These actions will reestablish the family ties that have been lost over the last couple of years via the attrition of membership and a failure to strive to keep our families active and talking to one another.
Family remains the core of Nova Roma and strong family ties which support local and provincial meetings and events will be the best way for Nova Roma to grow healthy--enjoying the bounty that Tellus Mater has provided for us.
Be well. Vadete in pacem Cereri.


___________________________________________________________
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry



Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Equitius Cato P. Livio Triario quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve et salvete.

Livius Triarius, you wrote:

"Christianity has, historically, simply taken over pagan
practices, but to such an extent that the official position is to deny
that they are, or were, pagan in origin. I can still remember the
explosion that I provoked on the Mithras list by commenting on the
identification of the blue-clad Madonna-and-Child images with the old
statues of the blue-clad Isis-and-Horus. I suppose the answer to the
question would be that the synthesis is already known to those who are
willing to see it, but that there is a faction of True Believers who
genuinely cling to the idea that the Christian cosmology is the only
one which can be allowed."

A note of correction. First, no intelligent, educated Christian even
bothers to deny the fact that many of the feasts and festivals of the
Church abrogated the dates and timings of several ancient pagan
religious observances. The Church did so precisely to create as
seamlessly as possible the transition from pagan practices to
Christianity. The fact that this is true does not in any way detract
from the point behind the celebrations themselves. Does the fact that
"The Star-Spangled Banner" took the tune of "To Anacreon in Heaven"
make the events portrayed in the US National Anthem any less real?
No. It simply took an already-popular piece of music and used it for
a specific purpose.

Second, the same applies to the imagery of the Madonna and Child. It
is ancient, probably one of the most ancient images known to mankind,
because it celebrates the universally held paradigm of love between a
mother and her infant. The image of Mary holding Christ is not
unique, nor does it have to be; the fact that Mary herself as
Theotokos, and Jesus Himself as God incarnate, are unique enough in
and of themselves stands as the testament of Christianity. I am what
you refer to as a "True Believer", and I do, in fact, believe that the
Christian cosmology is the fullest possible delineation of the
experience through which mankind can come before his Creator. And
using the word "allowed" is ascribing to the vast majority of
contemporary Christians the autocratic theocracy of the 4th century
A.D. or the practices of a tiny fraction of modern vocal Protestants;
for the Orthodox Church, at least in modern times, the truth of the
Gospel is simply presented, in its entirety. You can take it or leave
it, and you cannot be compelled to believe. You can believe anything
you want, and call it anything you want, but as soon as you step away
from the idea that Christ is the sole path to salvation, whatever you
have created is not Christianity.

Again, I beg you to remember that I am NOT arguing whether
Christianity is "right" or "wrong"; I am merely pointing out that
Christianity cannot be syncretized with anything that does not adhere
to an acceptance that Jesus Christ is God, and the only God.

Vale et valete,

Cato

Salve Servili et salvete omnes -

I've had my calendar for some time and it's superb! Not only is it most
informative, but it is elegant also. Congratulations to the designers.

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Charlie Collins
Sent: 28 February 2006 07:47
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman Calendar



Salve,

I just received the new Roman Calendar today that I ordered through
Caius Curius Saturninus. It look's fantastic. Anyone else got theirs?
If so, what do you think of it?

Vale,

Quintus Servilius Priscus




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Fall
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e&w2=Ancient+history&w3=Citizenship+test&w4=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w5=The+
roman+empire&c=5&s=113&.sig=cvvUbwFz4SII0tNReHlQkw> of the roman empire

The
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ient+history&w3=Citizenship+test&w4=Fall+of+the+roman+empire&w5=The+roman+em
pire&c=5&s=113&.sig=o0D-t5cCQCdxurytCXSC7Q> roman empire





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Salve Cato et salvete omnes!

Rarely have I read such sound common sense.

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of gaiusequitiuscato
Sent: 28 February 2006 14:21
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A few religious questions



C. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori quiritibusque S.P.D.

Salve et salvete!

Ah, Marca Hortensia, you know I love you dearly :-)

But as I pointed out (and Scaurus also underlined), the physical rites
and rituals, the vestments, even the accretion of specific festivals
falling at specific times --- all these were adapted or taken directly
from things that existed as Christinity developed. The vestments of
the Orthodox Church (and the Roman Catholic and High Anglican
churches) are merely adaptations of various pieces of Roman and
Byzantine imperial court dress, imbued with "sacred" symbology. The
Nativity, the Epiphany, the Transfiguration, the Ascension, even (to a
lesser degree) the Resurrection, all have counterparts in the
practices and beliefs of the ancient world. This is not even a question.

Pontifex Graecus, and tribune Piscinus & I have, on the Religio List,
noted some remarkable similiarities in certain types of religious
thought between practitioners and non-practitioners; this does not,
however, affect the basic contradiction between the religio and
Christianity: the absolute and inflexible belief in a single True God.
It is that fundamental belief, inextricably bound to the revelation,
in Jesus Christ, of that sole Deity in human flesh as the only way for
the Divine and human to touch each other, that marks the watershed
between Christianity and every other faith.

As a non-practitioner yet a citizen, I can appreciate artistically,
metaphorically, and historically, the beauty and pageant and (to be
quite honest) sheer fun of the great stories of the gods and their
exploits. The religio forms one (of several) common bonds among
citizens, and to recognize it as vital to the health of the Republic
is important. A key concept is the ability of us, here and now, to be
able to work and live within the Republic without the bigotry and
hatred that inspired so much tragic activity across the centuries,
both on the part of a furious series of hideous persecutions by
non-Christian authorities and the savagely immoral acts of the
Christian Church after it finally came to power.

As a Christian, I have to ask myself, "Can I in good conscience aid
those for whom the religio is their home, their comfort, their guide,
while still maintaining the belief required by my God? Can I support
a structure part of whose framework is in direct contradiction to the
basic tenet of my faith?" The answer, after long and careful thought,
is "yes."

First, the founders of the Republic, to their great credit, did not
impose the necessity of belief upon us. The religio, unlike
Christianity, is not founded upon an orthodoxic creed or set of
doctrines which must be held internally. It is orthopractic in
nature, and in that is both its great strength and one of its
weaknesses. Sttength because anyone can perform the necessary motions
of the rituals required and thereby satisfy the demands of the gods to
whom they are addressed --- without having to believe in those gods.
Weakness because there is no truly "evangelical" aspect to the
religio; unlike Chritianity, it does not have a command or a
doctrinally-based desire to "go ye into all the world and preach...",
and this can hamper its expansion.

Second, on a cultural and historic level, I can appreciate the desire
to see a part of our common Western heritage restored. In my
apartment, I have a statue of the Madonna and Child, and several ikons
of Christ, the Theotokos, and (of course) the Archangel St. Michael.
I also have statues of the gods Thoth, Anubis, Apollo, Hermes,
Iuppiter, and the goddess Diana. Do I defile my faith by having
these? No. The ikons represent the faith upon which I base my life;
the statuers of the various gods (and goddess) represent a part of my
cultural heritage as a Western human being. I can respect the
artistry, the faith, the passion that went into the beliefs which
created these images of the ancient gods without having to change my
internal beliefs.

To use a more...saecular image: do I really believe that a Roman toga
is the very best possible garment to wear in New York City on a
January night? Not on your life. It's "hello frostbite" time. But
*will* I wear one when eating and drinking and socializing with fellow
citizens? Yes. Because we have made a conscious decision to restore
a part of our history that is best served by putting ourselves as
closely in tune with the mindset of our ancestors as possible. It is
not "play acting", it is very real. To put on their style of clothes
creates an emotional (and physical) bond with them; to greet each
other with our Roman names, to discuss the politics of our Republic,
all of these things add to our growing corpus of experience and
romanitas. The observance of the religio, for a non-practitioner (at
least this one), is one more bond which holds us together.

Oh my God I've rambled forever. That's what happens when you have the
day off :-)

Sorry to go on so long. I hope you can glean the wheat from the chaff
here.

Vale et valete,

Cato








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Apollonius Cordus wrote:

> the Libra party and the 'Moderati' both established
> themselves in reaction to the 'Boni'.

Salve, Apolloni Corde.

Why do you insist on calling the Libra Alliance "the Libra party"? It is
not, has never been and will in all probability never be a political
party. Consider us something akin to a Sodalitas Equilibrium, and you
will be a whole lot closer to the truth.

A party is:

* Organised (Leadership, internal rules)
* United (Party line, mutual support)
* Politically focussed (Not seldom to the exclusion of actual issues)

WordNet:
party
n 1: an organization to gain political power;
[syn: {political party}]

The Libra is none of those things. We are several citizens of Nova Roma
who agree on certain key issues, that we pledge to promote whenever we
can, however we see fit. We frequently disagree on how to do so and many
of us have opposed proposals by other members of the Alliance.

However, this is not the only definition of "party". Here is another of
WordNet's suggestions:

3: a band of people associated temporarily in some activity;
[syn: {company}]

If this is what you meant, then I apologise for my outburst. This
definition comes fairly close to the truth, though our "company" has
held together longer than most thusly labelled.

In more common political terms, the Libra Alliance is probably closest
to a "special interest group" or "political lobbyists". We have some
issue we all try to promote, some through debate and discussion, others
through being politically active, others by meeting and talking to
citizens and non-citizens about Roma Antiqua and Nova Roma and some
through establishing ourselves to governments and organisations such as
universities.

We are in the business of promoting and strengthening a cultural
heritage, not gaining control over it. Control is a tool some of us use,
but it is not an end in and of itself.

Several members of the Libra Alliance had been elected Consuls before
the Alliance was formed. Some held high offices when it was formed. They
had no reason to band together to gain political power - they had it
already.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

The Proconsul has responded to the citizen off list.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

For historical accuracy, I was the first person in Nova Roma to ever use the term "Moderati" to describe my political and religious views. About a year after I first used that term, some citizens picked it up and ran with it as a badge of an alliance of citizens with modernistic and moderate views on the Religio and the administration of Nova Roma. I still view myself as a person with moderate views of many aspects of Nova Roma but have always leaned slightly to the right on matters dealing with the Sacra et Religio and very much to the left on matters dealing with the administration and system of by-laws of our organization.
At present, there are no genuine political fronts within Nova Roma as only a fraction of our active membership is interested in pursuing magistracies or pushing for more rules and by-laws. Many of our members subscribe to lists that are concerned or devoted to their particular interests and stay off the ML because of the multitude of unpleasantries that are associated with it. Many former citizens who have renounced their membership remain active on one or more of the associated lists of Nova Roma but do not want to identify themselves as Nova Romans. Recently, an active member of our organization told me that in some circles, Nova Roma is viewed as a Christian organization. I giggled hysterically until he explained why and I could see his point. Many members of our civil administration are publicly declared Christians but while I can see where those on the outside of NR might view us as Christian-oriented Roman hobbyists, we on the inside know that our magistrates almost universally pay honor to the gods of Rome as their oaths of office require them to do.

It is about time for a little re-writing and re-organization of Nova Roma in the area of membership and the way we do things. I no longer see any reason to keep the Socii on the census rolls any longer or any other individuals who did not respond to the census or are not assidui. Anyone who pays for membership should automatically be entitled to being a citizen without have to do anything like responding to the census or contributing to a list. I would still like to see membership cards issued by the propraetors to paid members. I would like to see The Eagle placed on a website that only paid members can access. Paid membership should carry certain privileges such as a shorter weight on provisional citizenship since they are willing to contribute something material to the organization right from the start.

Of course, I have already posted a note suggesting that members of the various clans and families get in touch with each other to re-establish the links that forge the basic unit of Nova Roma--the gens.

We recently saw several magistrates and pontifices act in accord with each other for the good of the Pax et Concordia of Nova Roma. Some had to eat a little crow, some had to change a little of their speech, but it worked out for everyone. We can move forward from this and effect some positive changes even though their may be some backsliding along the way. After all, this is Nova Roma and it wouldn't be a day in the Forum without somebody posting something that will set somebody else off.

Vadete in pacem Cereri.


A. Apollonius Cordus wrote:
the Libra party and the 'Moderati' both established themselves in reaction to the 'Boni'.

Salve, Apolloni Corde.

Why do you insist on calling the Libra Alliance "the Libra party"? It is not, has never been and will in all probability never be a political
party. Consider us something akin to a Sodalitas Equilibrium, and you will be a whole lot closer to the truth.

A party is:

* Organised (Leadership, internal rules)
* United (Party line, mutual support)
* Politically focussed (Not seldom to the exclusion of actual issues)

WordNet:
party
n 1: an organization to gain political power;
[syn: {political party}]

The Libra is none of those things. We are several citizens of Nova Roma who agree on certain key issues, that we pledge to promote whenever we
can, however we see fit. We frequently disagree on how to do so and many of us have opposed proposals by other members of the Alliance.

However, this is not the only definition of "party". Here is another of WordNet's suggestions:

3: a band of people associated temporarily in some activity;
[syn: {company}]

If this is what you meant, then I apologise for my outburst. This definition comes fairly close to the truth, though our "company" has
held together longer than most thusly labelled. In more common political terms, the Libra Alliance is probably closest
to a "special interest group" or "political lobbyists". We have some issue we all try to promote, some through debate and discussion, others
through being politically active, others by meeting and talking to citizens and non-citizens about Roma Antiqua and Nova Roma and some
through establishing ourselves to governments and organisations such as universities.

We are in the business of promoting and strengthening a cultural heritage, not gaining control over it. Control is a tool some of us use,
but it is not an end in and of itself. Several members of the Libra Alliance had been elected Consuls before
the Alliance was formed. Some held high offices when it was formed. They had no reason to band together to gain political power - they had it
already.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


FGA: In old Rome, this would be a collegia formed by those with similar business interests or, old Greece, where a Symposia was a philosophical drinking party.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

Which reminds me of a traumatic experience when I was a youngster. My
friends and I got into some of my father's good pure sugar cane naval
rum. We were caught of course and I got his boot buried in my buttocks
not for swiping a bit of rum as boys will be boys he said but for
comitting the sacrilage of mixing the rum with coke like a Cuba Libra.
To him, only uncouth barbarians mixed soda pops with good quality
spirits.


Regards,

QSP

On 2/28/06, Peter Bird <p.bird@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Servili et salvete omnes -
>
> I've had my calendar for some time and it's superb! Not only is it most
> informative, but it is elegant also. Congratulations to the designers.
>
> Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus

Yes I agree It's beautiful. I hope they continue to produce them for next
year

Merula

--
Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, Consul Modianus. You have done the right thing. I firmly believe your actions were sincere and that the law failed us in this instance. I pray and hope that that problem will soon be remedied, and that there will be a fair resolution for all concerned.

Vale bene in pace deorum,

Maxima Valeria Messallina
Sacerdos Vestalis

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
EDICTUM CONSULARE

Regarding Edictum dated February 18, 2006.

Ex Officio

I hereby withdraw my previous edictum regarding Flavius Vedius
Germanicus as an Augur of Nova Roma. I stand firm that it was within
the law to reaffirm the status of Vedius as an Augur, however, in
order to maintain concordia within Nova Roma I withdraw said Edictum.
The status of Vedius as an augur is being deliberated within the
Collegium Pontificum and I trust the Pontifices will find a suitable
solution.

Dated XXVII February 11:10 AM Roman time, issued officially in the
consulship of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia Minucia Strabo.

-----

EDICTUM CONSULARE

Regarding Flavius Vedius Germanicus as an Augur of Nova Roma.

Ex Officio

Flavius Vedius Germanicus, a Pater Patriae of Nova Roma, has
previously been an Augur of Nova Roma (March 1998 - March 2002). At
the time he resigned his citizenship, membership in the Collegium
Augurum was not automatically rescinded when citizenship was
renounced, in accordance with ancient tradition. With the authority of
LEX EQVITIA GALERIA DE LEGIBVS EX POST FACTIS (which states, "No one
shall suffer a penalty for an action which was not subject to a
penalty when the action was performed") and the authority to interpret
Nova Roma Law (integral to Consular Imperium), based on the
application of the LEX EQVITIA GALERIA DE LEGIBVS EX POST FACTIS to
this matter, I reinstate Flavius Vedius Germanicus as a full member of
the Collegium Augurium.

Dated XVIII February 11:30 AM Roman time, issued officially in the
consulship of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia Minucia Strabo.

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:

>> P.S. Just a wild idea! Imagine a Nova Roma version of "Dancing with the Stars!" Now, what would we call it? Series titles anyone? >>

Survivor -- The Insanity

(Based on Cato the Elder's assertion that only insane men dance when they're not drunk.)

Vale,

-- Marinus



Salve, Gn. Equitius Marinus

Oh, how funny!
Now, all we have to do is see who we can get to participate. Pass the wine...;)

Vale bene,
Maxima Valeria Messallina


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I'm sure he would have forgiven you if you had only made up a flagon of navy grog instead of trying to be like the Andrews Sisters . . . drinking rum and co-ca-co-lah!

FGA

-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) <mjk@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:02:44 -0000
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Do Libres come from Cuba?


Salvete omnes,

Which reminds me of a traumatic experience when I was a youngster. My
friends and I got into some of my father's good pure sugar cane naval
rum. We were caught of course and I got his boot buried in my buttocks
not for swiping a bit of rum as boys will be boys he said but for
comitting the sacrilage of mixing the rum with coke like a Cuba Libra.
To him, only uncouth barbarians mixed soda pops with good quality
spirits.


Regards,

QSP






Yahoo! Groups Links






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Severus Paulino omnibusque sal.

Just for the record, it's cuba libre, amice. I agree with your dad: only barbarians will mix soda pops with good quality spirits, which happen to be almost sacred...

Vale, et valete optime,

M•IVL•SEVERVS

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Salvete omnes,
A few weeks ago I ordered 3 calenders, and I was suprised at how quickly they got here. I thought they were excellently put together and had some great information in them. I even hung one in work so that I have some NR around while I work. I got some of Provincia Hispania's equally great calenders last year also, I think it's brilliant that NR is able to produce such high quality merchandise and intend buying our calenders as long as we keep producing them.
Vale; Decimus Gladius Lupus,Provincia Hibernia.


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M. Hortensia Quiritbus spd;
common sense usually means our opinions and prejudices are
reified by others;-)

Now to continue with more facts, I suggest everyone read Professor
Mark S. Smith's "Polythieistic Origins of Biblical Monotheism."
and "The Pagan God: Popular Religion in the Greco-Roman Near East"
Javier Teixidor, Princeton University Press,1977.

A little scholarship may shed some light:
"The conclusions that major changes had taken place in the Near
East during the centuries preceding Christianity was drawn from
Classical writers in order to present Christianity as the legitimate
answer to man's anguis. Most of the books dealing with the subject are
in fact apologetics, but apologetics is not the best of the gifts
which were handed down to European civilization by early Christian
writers.
Near Eastern religion maintained their traditional character during
the last centuries of the first millenium B.C. as is conclusively
attested by the innumerable inscriptions." p. 5

Now what does this all mean: the Near East was characterized by
henothism, meaning one supreme god with many helper gods.
Judaism "El", Islam "Allah" , Zoroastrianism "Ahura Mazda" all had
female partners "Asherah" "Allat, Mannawat" "Anahita" as well as many
helper gods. Christianity was born into this mix no differently.

To be continued
Marca Hortensia Maior



---> Salve Cato et salvete omnes!

>
> Rarely have I read such sound common sense.
>
> Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus
>
>
>
> _____
>
>

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

> I'm sure he would have forgiven you if you had only made up a flagon of
> navy grog instead of trying to be like the Andrews Sisters . . .
> drinking rum and co-ca-co-lah!

Perhaps he took the classic attitude reflected in the joke about not
mixing alcohol and gasoline: it won't run your car and it tastes awful.

I wonder if that could be converted into a more Classical form? Don't mix
olive oil and wine; it tastes weird and doesn't burn in a lamp. (It could
conceivably be used in cookery, though, perhjaps only as a marinade...)

-- P. Livius Triarius
WWDD? What would Dionysius do?
He wouldn't mix his wine with olive oil, that's sure...

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, gaiusequitiuscato wrote:

> C. Equitius Cato P. Livio Triario quiritibusque S.P.D.
>
> Salve et salvete.
>
> Livius Triarius, you wrote:
>
>> "Christianity has, historically, simply taken over pagan
>> practices, but to such an extent that the official position is to deny
>> that they are, or were, pagan in origin. I can still remember the
>> explosion that I provoked on the Mithras list by commenting on the
>> identification of the blue-clad Madonna-and-Child images with the old
>> statues of the blue-clad Isis-and-Horus. I suppose the answer to the
>> question would be that the synthesis is already known to those who are
>> willing to see it, but that there is a faction of True Believers who
>> genuinely cling to the idea that the Christian cosmology is the only
>> one which can be allowed."
>
> A note of correction. First, no intelligent, educated Christian even
> bothers to deny the fact that many of the feasts and festivals of the
> Church abrogated the dates and timings of several ancient pagan
> religious observances. The Church did so precisely to create as
> seamlessly as possible the transition from pagan practices to
> Christianity. The fact that this is true does not in any way detract
> from the point behind the celebrations themselves. Does the fact that
> "The Star-Spangled Banner" took the tune of "To Anacreon in Heaven"
> make the events portrayed in the US National Anthem any less real?
> No. It simply took an already-popular piece of music and used it for
> a specific purpose.

I would generally agree with your observations, O Gaius, but with the
reservation that the encroachment upon the dates and timings of pagan
observances was frequently for the purpose of compelling an either/or
choice -- many of the ancients calmly observing the rites of more than one
religion, a thing anathema to the early Christians. It was not, in other
words, done to make the transition "seamless", but to force communicants
to observe the Christian rites and no others. That such manipulation was
thought necessary reflects poorly on the primitive church -- though,
compared to its abominably mysogynistic attitude toward women and the
brutality with which it suppressed both the religious and philosophical
teachings of Classic civilization, a little devious trickery with timing
seems rather a trifle.

> Second, the same applies to the imagery of the Madonna and Child. It
> is ancient, probably one of the most ancient images known to mankind,
> because it celebrates the universally held paradigm of love between a
> mother and her infant. The image of Mary holding Christ is not
> unique, nor does it have to be; the fact that Mary herself as
> Theotokos, and Jesus Himself as God incarnate, are unique enough in
> and of themselves stands as the testament of Christianity.

I should rather say that it usurps the universal human love for the mother
and child and tries to claim it exclusively as its own; but this is an
issue on which civil disagreement is possible.

> I am what you refer to as a "True Believer", and I do, in fact, believe
> that the Christian cosmology is the fullest possible delineation of the
> experience through which mankind can come before his Creator. And using
> the word "allowed" is ascribing to the vast majority of contemporary
> Christians the autocratic theocracy of the 4th century A.D. or the
> practices of a tiny fraction of modern vocal Protestants; for the
> Orthodox Church, at least in modern times, the truth of the Gospel is
> simply presented, in its entirety.

Pardon me, I failed to make myself clear. It is that fraction of vocal
modern Protestants to which I was referring as "True Believers" --
meaning, not that they were truly believers in the core values of
Christianity, but that they defined theirs as the True Belief, all others
being imitation or perversion. I have the impression -- without having
found any trustworthy statistics to support it -- that the great majority
of Christians tolerantly indulge other beliefs in the expectation that if
there is truly but one God he must be so far beyond our full comrehension
that it it no great wonder that different people apprehend God in
different ways. (Or even take the attitude that -- Marcus Arelius, was
it? -- took: that an omnipotent God could easily have caused every human
to have the same concept about Zim, and clearly did not. Thus it is
possible that God is pleased to be worshipped by Christians with some
rites, by Jews with others, by Hindus or Buddhists with yet others.)

> You can take it or leave it, and you
> cannot be compelled to believe. You can believe anything you want, and
> call it anything you want, but as soon as you step away from the idea
> that Christ is the sole path to salvation, whatever you have created is
> not Christianity.
>
> Again, I beg you to remember that I am NOT arguing whether
> Christianity is "right" or "wrong"; I am merely pointing out that
> Christianity cannot be syncretized with anything that does not adhere
> to an acceptance that Jesus Christ is God, and the only God.

Yes, and you are right to make the point that this is an essential
feature of Christianity. (I had remarked, truly but too narrowly, that it
was the exclusivist nature of Christianity -- and Islam and Jewishness --
that made the idea of syncretism impossible.)

Vale!
-- P. Livius Triarius

Is the Nova Roma page's link to the Censores still valid? I applied to
undertake this test several days ago and haven't heard anything yet.

-- P. Livius Triarius

On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Maior wrote:

> M. Hortensia Quiritbus spd;
>
> Now what does this all mean: the Near East was characterized by
> henothism, meaning one supreme god with many helper gods.
> Judaism "El", Islam "Allah" , Zoroastrianism "Ahura Mazda" all had
> female partners "Asherah" "Allat, Mannawat" "Anahita" as well as many
> helper gods. Christianity was born into this mix no differently.

Your observation about Allat/Mannawat, the female counterpart of Allah, is
correct but of course Islam wasn't involved in this "mix"; Islam didn't
arise until several centuries after Christianity was firmly established.
And though many Jewish rulers (and doubtless their subjects, though the
records of this somehow didn't get into the Bible -- what a curious
omission!) recognized Asherah, as did David and Solomon for instances, the
patriarchal element in Judaism made unremitting efforts to write Her out
of the record and succeeded about the time of Josiah. Josiah carried out
sweeping destruction of Asherah's shrines. There is no Biblical record of
significant opposition to his policy.

Still, a few years later, when Egypt and then Assyria attacked Israel,
Josiah couldn't raise an army big enough to offere resistance. Makes you
think.

-- P. Livius Triarius

Salve Triare,

Yes, the link still works. I'm sending a copy of this message to my
censorial mailing list. You'll have your test within a day.

Vale,

-- Marinus

dicconf wrote:

> Is the Nova Roma page's link to the Censores still valid? I applied to
> undertake this test several days ago and haven't heard anything yet.
>
> -- P. Livius Triarius
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

M. Hortensia P Livio Trario spd;
my fault for poor sentence structure.Islam came after
Christianity. Warwick Ball makes the interesting point that the Near
East went easily over to Christianity and later to Islam as all
these ideas were current and part of the syncretic mix..

Today we worship the Baal Shaamin and his son, tomorrow Allah - no
difference. No difference if I say the Jews worshipped the minor
god 'El as their national god whilst in Ugarit Baal reigned supreme.


I am making the point about Christianity being the child of the
syncretic Roman Near Eastern Empire as Barbatus used the ghastly
expression "Judeao-Christian" over at the Latinitas list.

There is no such thing. Jews then and today have nothing to do with
Christian ideas or beliefs; the son of god, eucharist, virgin
births, original sin, trinitarian ideas,. To Jews, Christianity is
an entirely separate and distinct religion.

The Christian ministerial students I meet today are taught and
respect this.

To put this in perspective. All we have to do is look at the disgust
the conservative Judaeans had for Herod and his Idumaean birth. They
were a tribe forced to convert. The Judaeans had little truck for
non-Jews. The tiny group of Jews who believed in Jesus had to turn
to the gentiles and absorb their culture and practices.

This is the reason Christians today do not ritually circumcize or
follow Jewish laws from Leviticus or even observe the Sabbath.
Obvious....

bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
>
> -- P. Livius Triarius
>

Salve ,Fellow citizens,I must make it clear that I shall not retreat
from the Roman Way in doing things.There is a path of Glory that runs
through the fabric of Roman society as it impacts itself direct to our
modern culture of war.Wars may me waged on many levels these days.Those
that serve in them deserve to revel in the honor of Glory.lET US NOT
TAKE THAT AWAY FROM OUR WAR VETERANS AND HONOR OUR DEAD.nOT ONE BODY
SHOULD GO UNATTENDED on the battle field.I pray to Mars for guidence in
war and my other side desires to worship Venus for her gift of light to
the world.Vale,Appius Galerius Aurelianus,Legio VI,"Ferrata"II
Century,II Cohor.Semper Fidelis!

Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;

As I sit and think of some things in my life, my thoughts turn to my
time in military uniform, to the men and women with whom I served, to
the long line stretching back before the dawn of recorded history, to
my wife's service, to that of men in my family - those who returned
and those who remained forever on or near the field of battle.

These thoughts were brough to the fore by the recent passing of a
hero, CPT James M. Burt, USA (Ret.) July 18, 1917 - February 15, 2006

Captain Burt was awarded the Medal of Honor, by the United States, for
his action during the struggle over Aachen during the Battle of the
Bulge. He was also awarded 3 Purple Hearts for wounds received in
battle.

As a young cadet at Norwich, the Military College of Vermont, in the
fall of 1975, I had the chance to speak with him for a few minutes at
a reception following a VJ Day memorial service.

What he told me when I evinced my honor at meeting him was, basically,
that he did nothing special. He did his duty, as any man should.

Here is the link to his citation: http://www.medalofhonor.com/JamesBurt.htm

I am forever proud of having made his acquaintence.

Gods Bless and Keep Such men.

On Those Who Bore the Burden - 11 November 2001 CE

To those who have, the Burden borne
For Folk and Land, and Honor's sake
We give our thanks, on Holy Day
Remembrance of, the Duty done

In cold and rain, through coal black night
In heat and wind, neath furnace sun
The Warrior, is always there
To stand and watch, o'er Home and Hearth

When bugles blare, sounding the Charge
They go to fight, and perhaps, die
Beating back fear, and going forth
Tis duty done, tis duty done

And if they fall, in faring forth
They're laid to rest, by friend or foe
With solemn nod, and solemn word
And then, perhaps, with solemn Call

After Duty, is fairly done
They venture Home, to Kin embrace
Sometimes to cheers, sometimes quiet
This lessens not, their Honored Name

And in their work, after service
They still guard weal, by building lives
By building homes, and families
Continuing, continuing

We who live free, because of them
Who sacrificed, and bled, and wept
Who duty did, and honor gained
Recall their Deeds, recall their Names

To those who have, the Burden borne
For Folk and Land, and Honor's sake
We give our thanks, on Holy Day
Remembrance of, the Duty done

I also like to think of those many, many others, who stay at home,
making it possible for all of us to be there at the front...

To All Who Serve - 15 September 2001 CE

Warrior stands, twixt home and foe
The shining edge, of Tribal Might
Bearing the brunt, of duty's load
His blood and bone, is safety's ward

Under Land Bond, he Steading guards
Under Kin Oath, he Hearth defends
Wrecking vengeance, stopping attack
Community's fist, community's shield

Behind him stands, a long broad line
Seamstress, cobbler, armorer, smith
Farmer, baker, brewer and cook
Teamster, joiner, all Trades and Crafts

Without the Folk, no duty starts
Without the Folk, no arms to bear
Without the Folk, no meals to eat
Without the Folk, no shirts to don

Those who, do stay, within the garth
To build and sow, to sew and teach
Give to the edge, a purpose true
And welcome home, once strife is done

Each sword, does shield, a thousand folk
Some aware of, the Burden borne
By warriors, who do well serve,
But not alone, all work serves too

For without Folk, what is a man
But creature poor, and sore bereft
Of Clan and Hearth, of Homely things
Provided by, their efforts good

And so I say, to those who would
Take up the Sword, strap on the Shield
And find that no, Warband will take
Build up the Home, Build up the Folk

These precious things, made by your hands
Your toothsome foods and goodly drink
Your weapons bright and warwains strong
Give tools and might, to those who guard

For you who work, do serve Folk well
There is Honor, in scrape of rake
in hammer's swing, and steaming pot
In all these things, is Lifeworth, too

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
"Skaldic Pebble - a 40 poem sampler" now available
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus M Hortensiae Maori et omnibus salutem dicit
-

It wasn't me who used the term 'Judaeo-Christian!! (though it may well be a
part of my vocabulary ...) However, I have been following this thread
closely, and am enjoying it very much: plenty of food for thought!

Vale et valete optime.

SPPB



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Maior
Sent: 01 March 2006 02:25
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: A few religious questions



M. Hortensia P Livio Trario spd;
my fault for poor sentence structure.Islam came after
Christianity. Warwick Ball makes the interesting point that the Near
East went easily over to Christianity and later to Islam as all
these ideas were current and part of the syncretic mix..

Today we worship the Baal Shaamin and his son, tomorrow Allah - no
difference. No difference if I say the Jews worshipped the minor
god 'El as their national god whilst in Ugarit Baal reigned supreme.


I am making the point about Christianity being the child of the
syncretic Roman Near Eastern Empire as Barbatus used the ghastly
expression "Judeao-Christian" over at the Latinitas list.

There is no such thing. Jews then and today have nothing to do with
Christian ideas or beliefs; the son of god, eucharist, virgin
births, original sin, trinitarian ideas,. To Jews, Christianity is
an entirely separate and distinct religion.

The Christian ministerial students I meet today are taught and
respect this.

To put this in perspective. All we have to do is look at the disgust
the conservative Judaeans had for Herod and his Idumaean birth. They
were a tribe forced to convert. The Judaeans had little truck for
non-Jews. The tiny group of Jews who believed in Jesus had to turn
to the gentiles and absorb their culture and practices.

This is the reason Christians today do not ritually circumcize or
follow Jewish laws from Leviticus or even observe the Sabbath.
Obvious....

bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
>
> -- P. Livius Triarius
>

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