Salve -

On Sat, Apr 01, 2006 at 04:25:28AM -0000, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote:
> Salve Scaevola.
>
> There is an add-on service for Blogger you can install that takes it
> past the pretty picture stage. It isn't bad - for an add on.

No matter what the service, it can't tell you who the IP belongs to.

> As for the IP issue, simply looking at the "source" info of a number
> of the posts here and on other Yahoo sites and matching them to the
> IP from the Blog revealed a match.

Really?

Here's some source info from a couple of posts in this forum:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n26.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2006 03:14:11 -0000
Received: from [66.218.66.94] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2006 03:14:11 -0000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33)
by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Mar 2006 02:55:30 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43)
by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Mar 2006 02:55:30 -0000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you point out to me where they indicate who they came from? How
about their political/cohors affiliation? How about even the general
area of the world they live in? No?

> It isn't 100% - but then I never
> claimed it was.

It's not even one in a million - but your claim was definite; you _knew_
that the Senior Consul and their cohors were "dipping in and out".

Shame on you, sir. You and I have disagreed in the past, but this is
beneath your dignity.

> I doubt somewhat that I precipitated an attack of FUD on anyone's
> part <g>, but if I did I am sure you will reassure them.

Spreading misinformation - whether as an intimidation tactic or for
whatever other reason - isn't really something I see as a joking matter.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tamdiu discendum est, quamdiu vivas.
We should learn as long as we may live. (We live and learn.)
-- Seneca Philosophus, "Epistulae"

Salve Scaevola.

It is a simple chain of reasoning. A person wrote to me indicating
he had read my blog. The stats package records all activity and thus
it wasn't hard to locate the entry for someone in the location they
live in (the readership is substantial but not overwhelming). When
that same ISP in the same location keeps getting recorded on a daily
basis, that enables me to be quite confident the same person is
accessing it on a very regular basis.

The Senior Consul has read it (he wrote to me on the matter some
time ago). Knowing which province/state/country (courtesy of the
provincial pages on the NR web) the members of his Cohors hail from
and that of the Junior Consul, and making the reasonable assumption
that the series of accesses from a referring point of a Yahoo list
post (these packages record such details as last page visited,
referring source etc. as you know), email etc and a series of
accesses from IP's whose ISP's or locations were those of the cohors
members, enables me to deduce that they are accessing it. For
eaxmple its not that swamped in visitors that two visitors from
Sweden and Finland wouldn't attract attention.

In respect of Yahoo posts the source information shows:

X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 24.70.95.203

A simple search WHOIS reveals the ISP. Also some of the IP's are
rather specific...educational institutions in Ohio for example. So
using a match between the IP on the Yahoo post and the information
from the stats package allows a match. Sometimes it is just a match
on an ISP, other times with the odd dynamic IP it is an exact match.

Over the course of months the same locations crop up - again and
again. Hence I am comfortable in my deduction.

Having just written this far I was reflecting on your FUD comment
and I think I understand what may have concerned some people. I
assume they interpret my comment that somehow I have some sort of
data grapped from the blog which allows a specific identification,
such as name, home address etc.

Allow me to be more specific to allay that, as I am sure you have
already done elsewhere. The statement I made is based on data that
does not identify the person, but which allows me to make the
deduction I did, supported by confirmatory emails from some people
and the factors above.

I hope that clarifies matters.

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" <ben@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve -
>
> On Sat, Apr 01, 2006 at 04:25:28AM -0000, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

wrote:

> > Salve Scaevola.
> >
>

M. Hortensia G. Equito Catoni spd;
that was the point. I assumed you knew all religious Jews
could or would eat meat meals; ergo the Paschal lamb, but that you
wouldn't know they ate dairy vegetarian ones.
As I said I made the assumption because you are a
practicing Christian that you have some tiny knowledge of Judaism,
but you don't and won't admit it!
Maior,

> As for the Passover lamb remark; I don't even know where to begin

with

> that one, but my answer would be most intemperate I'm afraid.

I'll

> stick with, "Physician, heal thyself."
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato
>
>

Salve,

I don't think you can accurately ascertain what knowledge he has of Judaism.

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maior" <rory12001@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 2:07 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Greek polytheists have court victory - Modern
Sacrifice


> M. Hortensia G. Equito Catoni spd;
> that was the point. I assumed you knew all religious Jews
> could or would eat meat meals; ergo the Paschal lamb, but that you
> wouldn't know they ate dairy vegetarian ones.
> As I said I made the assumption because you are a
> practicing Christian that you have some tiny knowledge of Judaism,
> but you don't and won't admit it!
> Maior,
>

Q. Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem dicit.

The Collegium Pontificum, convened by myself, has just finished its
latest session. The following Pontifices participated in the meeting:

M. Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus
L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
Q. Fabius Maximus
Cn. Salvius Astur

The items presented to the Collegium for voting were:

I. An endorsement by the Collegium Pontificum for Caius Curius
Saturninus to publish the official calendar.

II. A recommendation from the Collegium Pontificum to the Senate for the
date of the Feriae Latinae.

On Item I, the Collegium Pontificum gives its endorsement to C. Curius
Saturninus to publish the official calendar.

(6 in favor, 0 abstentions, 0 against)

On Item II, the Collegium Pontificum submits to the Senate as its
recommendation for the date of the Feriae Latinae for this year a.d. III
Kal. Mai. (28 April), with the two days immediately thereafter
designated as dies religiosi.

(6 in favor, 0 abstentions, 0 against)

I thank my fellow pontifices for participating in this meeting. I also
request that the Magister Arenarius post the above decreta in the
Tabularium as appropriate, and ask that the Consuls convene the Senate
at the earliest convenience to determine the date for the Feriae Latinae.

On the Behalf of the Collegium Pontificum,

Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus, Pontifex

Salve G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana,

I stand corrected about the s t r e t ch thing. Thank you. Now I'm really blushing : -)

> My dear Diana . . . whatever else did you have in mind that
> made you blush so? Perhaps thoughts suited neither to a
> "proper Roman matron" nor to this modest public forum?

> Tut tut.

I know, shame on me. I have to get visions of big strong muscular flexible gladiators overflowing
with testosterone out of my mind. Ok, done! (whew, that was hard!)

Hey but I'm a bacholorette, so am I really a matron (unproper or otherwise)? I'm really not the
matron type: I'm too girly and I giggle even at bad jokes. Can't I be the unproper maiden elder
sister or something? :-)

PS: Did she go for that purple hair job I suggested last time?
No, his purple hair turned her off (it clashed with her stola), but more importantly, she is saving
herself for Maximus.

Vale,
Diana

C. Aurelia Falco Silvana Tito Iulio Crasso omnibusque SPD.

Iulius Crassus, we look forward to the honor of doing battle
with you.

From your message 42918:

>
> But today is different. I'm more motivate and day by day
> I revert to my originally combative spirit. So...take care
> Velociraptor, even if you are a raptor, you are a small one.
>

Size isn't everything, is it now? In fact in these chariot
races, only skill and speed count. Bring on your lumbering
T. Rex! We'll sprint past him so fast he'll fall on his nose
trying to race after us.

> Regards,
> Iulius Crassus
> Owner and driver of Aprilis
> Factio Russata.

From the colorimetrically opposite Factio (Praesina), we
wish you a race (or races) that you will look back on with
pride and honor.

C. Aurelia Falco Silvana, owner
SPANDEX THE VANDAL
(Flexible, brilliant, resiliant--s t r e t c h i n g
far beyond the ordinary)

and
QUADRIGA VELOCIRAPTOR
(The rapt raptors rapidly run in victorious rapture)

C. Equitius Cato M. Hortensiae Catoni sal.

Salve Marca Hortensia.

I think it's time we ended the discussion. My original question,
regarding the catalyst(s) for the sacrifice of animals by the Romans,
has been treated well by several citizens (I have more questions on
their answers specifically which I'm thinking over now), and this
digression into vegetarianism is neither didactic nor frankly very
interesting. On top of which you are now starting to attack my own
personal level of education, which I find unusual as well as
insulting.

*If* you find that you *must* continue to try and insist that Judaism
did not obey the command of God to sacrifice animals, please do so in
private email. But I would prefer to simply drop the matter.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia G. Equito Catoni spd;
> that was the point. I assumed you knew all religious Jews
> could or would eat meat meals; ergo the Paschal lamb, but that you
> wouldn't know they ate dairy vegetarian ones.
> As I said I made the assumption because you are a
> practicing Christian that you have some tiny knowledge of Judaism,
> but you don't and won't admit it!
> Maior,
>
>
> > As for the Passover lamb remark; I don't even know where to begin
> with
> > that one, but my answer would be most intemperate I'm afraid.
> I'll
> > stick with, "Physician, heal thyself."
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
>

C. Aurelia Falco Silvana omnibus civibus Nova Romae SPD.

Out of deference to Horus the Elder, one of the Gods of the domus,
we keep an eye out for sky events.

On March 29, the world was treated to a total solar eclipse that cut a
swath across the middle of the globe. Part of that story especially
touches Nova Roma.

Here is the text of an Associated Press article that appeared in our
local newspaper. At the end of the article, I have put a link to Sky &
Telescope's news story on the eclipse which covers different viewing
sites and contains some spectactular photos.

WORLD ECLIPSE DELIGHTS VIEWERS
[my emphases below]

SIDE, Turkey (AP) -- Thousands of skygazers gathered in an ancient
temple of Apollo -- the sun god -- and let out cheers Wednesday as
a total solar eclipse turned the day into twilight, casting an eerie
blue
glow across the sky and the Mediterranean Sea.

NASA astronomers handed out protective glasses to hundreds of
Turkish children before the eclipse cut a dark swath across the sky--
a band that stretched from Brazil across West Africa, Turkey and
Central Asia, then disappeared at sunset in Mongolia.

The last total solar eclipse was in November 2003, but that was best
viewed from sparsely populated Antarctica. Wednesday's eclipse
blocked the sun in highly populated areas.

In Ghana, automatic street lamps switched on as the light faded, and
authorities sounded emergency whistles in celebration. Schoolchildren
and others across the capital, Accra, burst into applause.

Muslims in Iraq gathred at mosques during the eclipse for a special
prayer reserved for times of fear and natural disaster.

In the Turkish resort of Side (pronounced SEE-deh), a crowd of some
10,000 began cheering and whistling as the moon took its first bite out
of the sun. When the moon masked the sun and Venus suddenly
appeared in the blue glow of the darkened sky, another loud cheer
went up.

"It's one of those experiences that makes you feel like you're part of
the larger universe," said NASA astronomer Janet Luhmann, who
witnessed the eclipse from the ruins of an ancient roman theatre just
a few hundred metres from the temple of Apollo.

It was "spiritual and emotional," said Brian Faltinson of Victoria,
B.C.,
who was watching his second eclipse. "It just about made me cry."

As the moon covered the sun, the temperature dropped quickly and
some skygazers put on sweaters. The sun blackened and a fiery rim
surrounded it; the sky turned an eerie dark blue while a bright sunset
red could be seen on the horizon.

There was a festive atmosphere in Side, with people gathered on the
fallen stones and collapsed columns of the temple dedicated to
Apollo or on rocks at a beach about 10 metres away.

A string quintet played classical music at the foot of the temple's
five standing pillars and a Trukish brewery distributed free beer.
Vendors hawked eclipse T-shirts and at one point, the stargazers
began waving to a nearby cruise ship.

"It was a special ambiance," said astronomer Slobodan Ninkovic
who drove from Belgrade, Serbia. "We were inside an ancient
city -- it was very impressive."

Children sat on the ruined stone steps of the second-century
Roman theatre and watched as astronomers from NASA and the
Sand Francisco-based Exploratorium science museum, using
large telescope and cameras, broadcast the phenomenon live
on the internet.


SKY AND TELESCOPE news feature is at:

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/eclipses/article_1706_1.asp



Valete bene in pace Dei Hori.

C. Aurelia Falco Silvana





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---


Salve Aurelia et Salvete Omnes;'

Fascinating stuff

Thanks for sharing
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana"
<silvanatextrix@...> wrote:

>
> C. Aurelia Falco Silvana omnibus civibus Nova Romae SPD.
>
> Out of deference to Horus the Elder, one of the Gods of the domus,
> we keep an eye out for sky events.
>
> On March 29, the world was treated to a total solar eclipse that

cut a

> swath across the middle of the globe. Part of that story

especially

> touches Nova Roma.
>
> Here is the text of an Associated Press article that appeared in

our

> local newspaper. At the end of the article, I have put a link to

Sky &

> Telescope's news story on the eclipse which covers different

viewing

> sites and contains some spectactular photos.
>
> WORLD ECLIPSE DELIGHTS VIEWERS
> [my emphases below]
>
> SIDE, Turkey (AP) -- Thousands of skygazers gathered in an ancient
> temple of Apollo -- the sun god -- and let out cheers Wednesday as
> a total solar eclipse turned the day into twilight, casting an

eerie

> blue
> glow across the sky and the Mediterranean Sea.
>
> NASA astronomers handed out protective glasses to hundreds of
> Turkish children before the eclipse cut a dark swath across the

sky--

> a band that stretched from Brazil across West Africa, Turkey and
> Central Asia, then disappeared at sunset in Mongolia.
>
> The last total solar eclipse was in November 2003, but that was

best

> viewed from sparsely populated Antarctica. Wednesday's eclipse
> blocked the sun in highly populated areas.
>
> In Ghana, automatic street lamps switched on as the light faded,

and

> authorities sounded emergency whistles in celebration.

Schoolchildren

> and others across the capital, Accra, burst into applause.
>
> Muslims in Iraq gathred at mosques during the eclipse for a special
> prayer reserved for times of fear and natural disaster.
>
> In the Turkish resort of Side (pronounced SEE-deh), a crowd of some
> 10,000 began cheering and whistling as the moon took its first

bite out

> of the sun. When the moon masked the sun and Venus suddenly
> appeared in the blue glow of the darkened sky, another loud cheer
> went up.
>
> "It's one of those experiences that makes you feel like you're

part of

> the larger universe," said NASA astronomer Janet Luhmann, who
> witnessed the eclipse from the ruins of an ancient roman theatre

just

> a few hundred metres from the temple of Apollo.
>
> It was "spiritual and emotional," said Brian Faltinson of Victoria,
> B.C.,
> who was watching his second eclipse. "It just about made me cry."
>
> As the moon covered the sun, the temperature dropped quickly and
> some skygazers put on sweaters. The sun blackened and a fiery rim
> surrounded it; the sky turned an eerie dark blue while a bright

sunset

> red could be seen on the horizon.
>
> There was a festive atmosphere in Side, with people gathered on the
> fallen stones and collapsed columns of the temple dedicated to
> Apollo or on rocks at a beach about 10 metres away.
>
> A string quintet played classical music at the foot of the temple's
> five standing pillars and a Trukish brewery distributed free beer.
> Vendors hawked eclipse T-shirts and at one point, the stargazers
> began waving to a nearby cruise ship.
>
> "It was a special ambiance," said astronomer Slobodan Ninkovic
> who drove from Belgrade, Serbia. "We were inside an ancient
> city -- it was very impressive."
>
> Children sat on the ruined stone steps of the second-century
> Roman theatre and watched as astronomers from NASA and the
> Sand Francisco-based Exploratorium science museum, using
> large telescope and cameras, broadcast the phenomenon live
> on the internet.
>
>
> SKY AND TELESCOPE news feature is at:
>
>

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/eclipses/article_1706_1.
asp

>
>
>
> Valete bene in pace Dei Hori.
>
> C. Aurelia Falco Silvana
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

........April Fools!!!

hah hah :>)

Cheers
Pompeia

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Kalendis Apriliis; haec dies fastus est.

"Perform the rites of the goddess, Roman brides and mothers,
And you who must not wear the headbands and long robes.
Remove the golden necklaces from her marble neck,
Remove her riches: the goddess must be cleansed, complete.
Return the gold necklaces to her neck, once it's dry:
Now she's given fresh flowers, and new-sprung roses.
She commands you too to bathe, under the green myrtle,
And there's a particular reason for her command (learn, now!).
Naked, on the shore, she was drying her dripping hair:
The Satyrs, that wanton crowd, spied the goddess.
She sensed it, and hid her body with a screen of myrtle:
Doing so, she was safe: she commands that you do so too.
Learn now why you offer incense to Fortuna Virilis,
In that place that steams with heated water.
All women remove their clothes on entering,
And every blemish on their bodies is seen:
Virile Fortune undertakes to hide those from the men,
And she does this at the behest of a little incense.
Don't begrudge her poppies, crushed in creamy milk
And in flowing honey, squeezed from the comb:
When Venus was first led to her eager spouse,
She drank so: and from that moment was a bride.
Please her with words of supplication: beauty,
Virtue, and good repute are in her keeping.
In our forefather's time Rome lapsed from chastity:
And the ancients consulted the old woman of Cumae.
She ordered a temple built to Venus: when it was done
Venus took the name of Heart-Changer (Verticordia).
Loveliest One, always look with a benign gaze
On the sons of Aeneas, and guard their many wives.
As I speak, Scorpio, the tip of whose raised tail
Strikes fear, plunges down into the green waves." - Ovid, Fasti IV

"...in the Beginning of [April] there is read upon the Calends,
Veneralia ludi, Senatus legitimus. Now, it is possible these
Veneralia, were feasts in honour of Venus, which they celebrated with
publick Sports; which perfectly agrees...with the Words of Ausonius.
Before Venus there stands a Candlestick, with a Wax-taper lighted, in
the Flame of which they burnt Grains of Incense. The lines of Ausonius
are to this purpose: 'April does Honour to Venus cover'd with Myrtle.
With this Month is seen the Light of Incense, with which the
beneficent Ceres shines. Nor are those Perfumes wanting which are
always issue from the Paphian Goddess'." -Montfaucon, Antiq. Suppl.,
on the Calendar of Philocalus (p. 19)

"Hail, Lady of the Morning Star!
You who rose form the sea foam,
Born of the impersonal severed phallus of the sky
Immersed in the impersonal womb of the sea,
You who rode to shore on a shell of pearl
And whose powers no one can resist
Save the virgin goddesses,
You who bring the glow of gold
Into the lives of all whom you touch,
Lady, we revere you as the avatar
Of the love between equals
Who look each other in the eye,
The attraction and pursuit
Between every particle in the universe.
Hail, Lady of the Evening Star!
You who rule the night
With its darker passions,
You who tempt the wistful heart,
You whose hands reach out
To all the world and more,
Lady, we revere you as a force of nature
Far greater than merely the human heart,
For you are the force that binds together
All that dances with another of its kind
In the endless dance of creation." - Pagan Book of Hours, Hymn to
Venus

"Come to us Venus, O Queen of Cnidos and Paphos, leave Cyprus, though
the isle is dear to you, come instead to where the incense is thick
and Glycera sings to you, that you may transfer your home to your new
shrine among us. Bring along for your company desirous Cupid, with
loose-girdled Graces and laughing Nymphs, youthful Juventus and
Mercury, who without you are graceless." - Horace, Carminum Liber I.
XXX.1-8

"Why on the festival of the Veneralia do they pour out a great
quantity of wine from the temple of Venus?

Is it true, as most authorities affirm, that Mezentius, general of the
Etruscans, sent to Aeneas and offered peace on condition of his
receiving the year's vintage? But when Aeneas refused, Mezentius
promised his Etruscans that when he had prevailed in battle, he would
give them the wine. Aeneas learned of his promise and consecrated the
wine to the gods, and after his victory he collected all the vintage
and poured it out in front of the temple of Venus. Or is this also
symbolic, indicating that men should be sober and not drunken on
festival days, since the gods take more pleasure in those who spill
much strong drink than in those who imbibe it?" - Plutarch, Moralia,
"Roman Questions" 45


Today is the Veneralia, the Roman festival of Venus Verticordia
("Changer of hearts"), the goddess of love and beauty. The worship of
the goddess Fortuna Virilis ("Bold fortune") was also part of this
festival. In Rome, women removed jewelry from the statue of the
goddess, washed her, and adorned her with flowers, and similarly
bathed themselves in the public baths wearing wreaths of myrtle on
their heads. It was generally a day for women to seek divine help in
their relations with men. Venus is also the mother of Aeneas, the
Trojan hero of the Aeneid who left the fallen city of Troy with his
father Anchises on his back. Eventually, after a dalliance in Carthage
with Queen Dido, he arrived in Italy.

Venus is the Roman goddess of love and beauty, but originally a
vegetation goddess and patroness of gardens and vineyards. Later,
under Greek influence, she was equated with Aphrodite and assumed many
of her aspects. Her cult originated from Ardea and Lavinium in Latium.
The oldest temple known of Venus dates back to 293 B.C. and was
inaugurated on August 18. Later, on this date the Vinalia Rustica was
observed. A second festival, that of the Veneralia, is celebrated on
April 1 in honor of Venus Verticordia, who later became the protector
against vice. Her temple was built in 114 B.C. After the Roman defeat
near Lake Trasum in 215 B.C., a temple was built on the Capitol for
Venus Erycina.

Venus is the daughter of Iuppiter, and some of her lovers include Mars
and Vulcan, modeled on the affairs of Aphrodite. Venus' importance
rose, and that of her cult, through the influence of several Roman
political leaders. The dictator Sulla made her his patroness, and both
Julius Caesar and the emperor Augustus named her the ancestor of their
(Julian) family: the 'gens Julia' was Aeneas, son of Venus and the
mortal Anchises. Ceasar introduced the cult of Venus Genetrix, the
goddess of motherhood and marriage, and built a temple for her in 46
B.C. She was also honored in the temple of Mars Ultor. The last great
temple of Venus was built by the emperor Hadrianus near the Colusseum
in A.D. 135.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Montfaucon, Plutarch, Homer, Veneralia (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Veneralia), Venus (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/v/venus.html)

> It's not even one in a million - but your claim was definite; you _knew_
> that the Senior Consul and their cohors were "dipping in and out".

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I read his blog occasionally. I don't agree with most of it, but it's
an interesting perspective.

Vale, O.


--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887

A. Apollonius Pompejae Minuciae omnibusque sal.

> > (Your argument that there is
> > plenty of time for discussion *during* voting is
> > misplaced, because once a person has voted he
> cannot
> > change his mind regardless of what he hears in
> debate
> > afterwards. All debate after the beginning of
> voting
> > is directed at persuading an increasingly small
> number
> > of people who haven't voted yet.)
>
> PMS: I know how ardently you want to defeat these
> proposals.
> However, I made no such argument as you present
> above. Please read
> the posts you respond to more thoroughly, so you
> don't
> misrepresent/misquote the positions of others in
> your haste to make
> a point.

You wrote, "...not to mention that the voting time is
in itself quite long and allows lots of time for
thinking". To me that sounds like "even if there isn't
enough time during the contio, there's enough time
during the voting". Perhaps what you meant was that we
could have five days' discussion and then all fall
silent and think hard for the rest of the voting
period. If so, I don't see how it helps you reply to
my suggestion that you have not allowed enough time
for discussion.





___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

A. Apollonius M. Moravio omnibusque sal.

I notice that in your discussion with C. Equitius you
have a lot to say about what you and the consul "both
prefer", what you "felt", what you thought was "a
simple idea", and so on. You say that "we did take
into consideration a lot of different concerns, the
opinions of several people, as well as past experience
and existing law". What is the crucial missing
ingredient there? It is the one ingredient which
should form the basis and starting-point of absolutely
any attempt to formulate policy for Nova Roma, and it
is the one thing you did not "take into
consideration": what the Romans did. It astounds me
that you and Strabo think you have a better chance of
coming up with a good solution than five centuries of
Romans did.

Your sole reference to ancient practice demonstrates
precisely how little you have actually understood it.
You say:

> If you want to ask how such issues were dealt with
> in the mos maiorum,
> then there is a great deal of augural law to
> consider. I suggested a
> book to Consul Pompeia Minucia that others may find
> of interest as
> well. "Public Office in Early Rome: Ritual
> Procedure & Political
> Practice," by Roberta Stewart, 1998. The highest
> authority in Roma
> antiqua was the People assembled into comitia.
> Their authority was
> extended to them from the Gods, and thus very rigid
> procedures had to
> be followed when conducting a comitia in order to
> ensure that
> the "will of the People" was in fact "the will of
> the Gods." Nova Roma
> does not really follow the ius augurium when
> conducting a comitia, and
> what is provided is often times being ignored. But
> this proposed lex
> does take us closer to a basic principle that
> authority in Nova Roma
> is retained by the People when assembled in comitia.
> This is
> something that I find very compelling in the
> Consul's proposal, one
> that does move us closer to the mos maiorum, and
> thus in keeping with
> the guiding principles of Nova Roma.

The statement that this proposal "does move us closer
to the mos maiorum" is simply incorrect. You're quite
right to say that the ultimate authority in the Roman
republic resides in the populus (and yes, I have read
the book you mention). You suggest that this principle
is somehow expressed in the rule requiring
resignations of office to be submitted to and accepted
by some magistrate or other in order to be legally
valid. If so, why did the Romans themselves feel no
need whatsoever for such a rule?

Are you going to suggest that your proposals are
actually a truer embodiment of the basic principles of
the republican constitution than the Romans themselves
ever managed to achieve? Such a claim would take some
effort to believe.

In the ancient republic a resignation of office was
effective as soon as it was announced by the relevant
magistrate. No further action by any other magistrate
or by the populus itself was necessary. That is
entirely in accordance with the principle that the
populus is supreme. By the processes of election and
the enactment of the leges curiatae the populus
bestows upon the elected magistrate certain powers and
duties. The magistrate can then at any time
voluntarily surrender those, whereupon they
automatically revert to the populus. The idea of
requiring a resignation to be formally accepted by
some third party is totally unnecessary to the
maintenance of the principle of the supremacy of the
populus, and in fact does nothing to enhance it. On
the contrary, it actually puts a blockage in the way
of the natural process whereby the powers delegated by
the populus revert to the populus.

Similarly, your objections to the scheme proposed by
the lex Galeria continue to demonstrate that you have
done precisely no research into the Roman way of
dealing with surrender of office or of citizenship;
or, at any rate, whatever research you have done has
had no effect. If you knew the Roman way of dealing
with these things it would be entirely clear to you
that the lex Galeria would not create a new category
of citizen at all. It does not talk about "suspended
citizens" or anything like that. It sinmply says what
ancient law said: a citizen who appears to abandon his
own citizenship is presumed no longer to be a citizen
unless and until he returns and reasserts his
citizenship. His citizenship may be said to be in
suspension: it is assumed to have ceased until there
is evidence to the contrary.

Having first failed to understand this part of the
proposal, and then criticised it as unnecessary and
confusing, you go on to explain that you attempted to
incorporate it into your own proposal! But as I've
explained your "suspended citizens" have nothing to do
either with the lex Galeria or with ancient practice.
They are creation of your own imagination based on a
total misunderstanding of the Roman law of
citizenship.

I honestly don't know what more I can usefully say.
You have as good as admitted that you don't understand
how the Romans dealt with these issues. You looked at
the lex Galeria, misunderstood it, and rejected it.
Maybe the fact that you misunderstood it shows that it
was poorly drafted. You may have been right to reject
it. It makes no difference. I am not opposed to your
proposals simply because they are not the lex Galeria
(however much your co-proposer may like to think
otherwise): I am opposed to them because they
perpetuate and even extend an unhistorical policy
which has been proven to be ineffective. The fact that
you did not consider the lex Galeria adequate, whether
rightly or wrongly, did not absolve you of the
obligation to base your own alternative proposals upon
a sound understanding of the ancient Roman law of
citizenship. If you had done that, perhaps you would
not have come up with the lex Galeria, but not in a
million years would you have come up with these
monstrously un-Roman, even anti-Roman, proposals you
are putting before us now.

I urge you once again to withdraw these proposals, do
some proper research, and start again, this time
basing your thinking on a solid grasp of the ancient
Roman approach to citizenship.



___________________________________________________________
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

A. Apollonius Flavio Galerio omnibusque sal.

> The ludi are attendant to the Cerealia not an
> original part of the celebration of the public rites
> to Ceres. Also, if we go by the strictest
> interpretation of Roman calendar, the ludi Cerealia
> would be celebrated at the end of the modern April
> Gregorian according to the Julian calendar.
> However, my reasons for doing the combination are
> two fold. First, as the flamen Cerialis I believe
> that the Goddess in the Grain should be offered
> games in the real world rather than in a mostly
> electronic format (sorry about the lack of horse &
> chariot races) along with celebratory rites.
> Second, I will still conduct the Cerealia rite on
> the proper Gregorian date of April 19. In regards
> to the aediles, I am sure that you are aware that
> the Plebeian Aediles traditionally derive their
> powers and functions from the aedes (temple) of
> Ceres so I am merely paying for the games out of my
> own sacred funds rather than burdening the Republic
> with the expense.

So hang on - you actually *are* saying that you are
unilaterally taking over the organization of two of
Nova Roma's official ludi from the aediles, and that
you are going to hold these official ludi in
Tennessee, where the large bulk of the population will
be unable to enjoy them? And you actually *are* saying
that you have unilaterally altered the official
religious calendar of Nova Roma? I simply can't
believe that that's what your saying. It would be
totally mad. Please tell me I've misunderstood you and
that you are *not* in fact claiming to have the
authority to change the official calendar and take
over the organization of the official ludi.





___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Salvete bene Cato et Quirites omnes

Ita, Orce ita.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:

>
> C. Equitius Cato M. Moravio Piscino sal.
>
> Salve Moravius Piscinus.
>
> I truly understand the desire to close every loophole, shut evety
> door, anticipate every possible twist and turn in human behaviour;
> it's simply not possible. Once you accept the fact that it's not,

a

> lex regarding citizenship, magistracies and resignations becomes

much

> easier to imagine:
>

MMPH: No one can contemplate all possibilities. You should try to
have a general pronciple put into a law and just work with that.
Some of the objections I have seen pose what would be only rare
instances, if at all, and some pose hypotheticals that just wouldn't
happen under the proposed lex. so those objections I will merely
dismiss. But you are right that we shouldn't get too detailed in
trying to write up any legislative proposal.

> If a citizen resigns, they...resign. Done. Off the rolls, buh-

bye.

MMPH: It would greatly simplify matters to follow this suggestion,
and I would not disagree. The Album Civium should only have cives,
and these should be separated into only three categories: assidui,
capiti censi, and probationary cives. The censores might be allowed
to also keep records on some others who were either refused
citizenship or expelled with just cause, and who therefore should be
barred from citizenship. The only real problem with your suggestion
is that very few people actually do resign citizenship. So then it
becomes a matter of when else to remove people's files (see below).

> If they want to come back, they...come back. Give us the info we
> need, and after a certain amount of time, they are given back the
> rewards of any service(s) rendered to the Republic. The religious
> stuff we leave to the College of Pontiffs - that's their job.
>

MMPH: No dispute with regard to the religious offices. Flamines and
augures always remain flamines and augures, but do not necessarily
remain public flamines and public augures; that is something for the
religious authorities to decide. With other things, though, if we
are to return any credits to a returning citizen, then we would
necessarily have to keep records on former citizens. I think we
need to set a time limit on just how long we would. No more than
five years. But then, consider what it is that returning citizens
would receive. A former consul could be allowed to use "consularis"
in his or her signature. None of the other magisterial offices are
really entitled to retain such an honor. Returning citizens are
entitled to regain the century points they held previously, but
century points mean absolutely nothing if the person is not also an
assiduus. All capiti censi are apportioned into one century,
irregardless of how many century points they have. If we tossed out
all the records of non-citizens, then anyone who returned would lose
their former century points. At this point I would not be inclined
to do that. We might consider, however, some alternative basis on
which to apportion assidui to the centuries, since in reality it is
only assidui who would be affected.

> If a citizen doesn't answer the census, they're considered gone.
> Done. Off the rolls. See above.
>

MMPH: Hm, I think that some would consider this as going too far,
but it is not a bad idea to consider. There are any number of good
reasons why a person might miss a census. One problem with the last
census is the time period in which it was conducted. Not everyone
has access to a computer in the summer months. If we did simplify
our file system, then the census could be conducted automatically,
just by the Magister Aranearius pulling up files by classification.
That could be done at any time, you could do it daily in only a
matter of seconds, and we wouldn't need to go through a "physical"
count as was done last time. I did make such a suggestion to the
censores. I also suggested that the census be conducted in the
first part of the year, that the newly installed censor be
responsibile for conducting the census (as a way for him or her to
get a handle on memebrship at the beginning of a term of office
rather than at the end), but these suggestions were not included in
the final Census Report. This could still be done by including a
fourth category, the socii, who would be those citizens that fail to
register in one cesnus, and then would be removed when they failed
to register in the subsequent census. Actually we would then need
five codes, as we'd have to move people into a separate code before
deleting the files, which we are perfectly capable of doing. maybe
we just need to better consider membership in Nova Roma.

> If a citizen doesn't want to pay their taxes, they...don't pay -

and

> they don't vote or run for office. Done.
>

MMPH: Well, that is not quite true as capiti censi do get to vote,
although they do not have much of an influence on voting due to how
they are apportioned. At present, c. 250 assidui are apportioned
into the rural tribes and into all but one century. Capiti censi
into the four urban tribes and into one century. In last year's
elections (238 assidui + 458 capiti = 696 cives), all capiti censi
in one century, LI (458), where the four rural tribes averaged 115
capiti, the largest with 130 capiti. Altogether though, the capiti
formed only one vote in the Centuriata (out of 51) and only four
(out of 35) among the tribes. The capiti censi do not have much
voting power in Nova Roma, and eliminating their voting privileges
altogether would not make much difference. Change the rules on
memebrship and you effect changes to our voting procedures. We are
not looking into changing voting procedures.

> If a magistrate resigns, they...resign. Done. Out of the job. If
> they want their old job back, they can try to get it the old way -

by

> running for election. Done.
>

MMPH: OK, but once again when does a resignation from office go into
effect? One would think this is a simple matter to resolve, but as
we have seen, there are different ideas on this, and thus the same
guidelines have not always been applied. So one thing we are trying
to do is nail down when and how a resignation from office is to
recognized. Saying that it occurs at the moment one posts a
resignation is a little ambiguous. The proposed lex takes a
slightly different approach in as much as it requires a kind of
official recognition of a resignation. That complicates the wording
of the lex, but really it is needed in order to abide with other
leges that concern the time frame for holding new elections. Also
related is whether the resigning magistrate should be allowed to
rescind a tendered resignation and/or whether to run in the
subsequent election. Fair's fair, so I think they should have some
second chance available. I prefer the idea of a "grace period" in
which they could rescind a resignation, as this appears to me to be
the least disruptive, but I do not want it to become where someone
could abuse the law by repeatedly submitting resignations and
withdrawing them in within the "grace period." One way to avoid
that is with the idea of another magistrate accepting and
recognizing a resignation, and then also could recognize the
rescinding of a resignation. The other way is to have no "grace
period" but to ensure that the resigning magistrate who has a change
of heart would be allowed to run in the election to fill the
vacancy. Otherwise we would punish people for resigning office. I
understand that some feel this way, but I do not agree with it; I do
not believe that this is a practical way of handling all situations.

> Anything more complex is useless.
>
> The primary responsibility of the Republic is *not* to spend its

time

> trying to force people to stay; it is to make perfectly clear

exactly

> what citizenship is and how to maintain it once they're *here*.
>

MMPH: Yes, exactly. Currently some of our laws include, or have
created other effects. Let us say, incentives and deterants to one
thing or another, accumulations of ideas in previous laws. For
example, the current lex Cornelia et Maria De Civitate Eiuranda has
punitive language in sections VI and VII. I do not think these
provisions serve any good purpose. OTOH the Lex Equitia de Civitate
Eiuranda offered some incentives to former citizens when returning
to Nova Roma. The wording there was unclear on some points, or at
the very least open to intepretation, and our earlier discussions
tried to tighten the language. The only actual incentive in the Lex
Equitia de Civitate Eiuranda, I think, is rather minimal, in that it
concerns restoring former century points (see above). I saw Senator
Cincnnatus Augur make a complaint that too much is repeatedly made
over such issues, and I think he has a good point. So simplifying
matters would be to remove any such language. When you resign
citizenship, you would then lose accumulated century points and all
honors. So in the case of Senator Vedius, a Pater Patriae, and one
who held several important offices, would it have been fair or
beneficial to deny him all recognition of his past contributions?
In my own case, restoration of my former century points was a
consideration I looked into when I was deciding whether to return.
Not many former citizens do return, so maybe it isn't all that
important a consideration to include in our laws, but it has proven
to have had an effect. I would consider it punitive in a certain
sense to discard the little incentives we offer returning citizens
now, but for the sake of simplifying matters and getting these
issues settled once and for all then I would certainly consider it.

I have asked Consul Pompeia Minucia to extend our contio by
assembling the comitia on 25 April rather than on 3 April. She has
already proposed to me some changes that I wish to review and
finalize before we place a proposed lex before the comitia. I will
go back to the earlier proposal we had discussed on the magistrates
list and, as always, I will also consider the suggestions made by
others during our contio. I consider such discussions as all part
of the legislative process and we will iron out a suitable proposal
for the comitia to consider.

> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>

Valete bene, vade in Deos, Cato, et vadete in pace Deorum, Quirites

M Moravius Piscinus Horatius
Tribunus Plebis

Salve, Octavius Germanicus amice.

On Sat, Apr 01, 2006 at 07:17:53AM -0600, Matt Hucke wrote:
>
> > It's not even one in a million - but your claim was definite; you _knew_
> > that the Senior Consul and their cohors were "dipping in and out".
>
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
>
> I read his blog occasionally. I don't agree with most of it, but it's
> an interesting perspective.

Ditto; I've read it myself a few times. Well-articulated thoughts and
good diction - along with a bit of overblown hyperbole... :) - and I
disagree with most of it myself. But claiming to know exactly who is
reading it is adding fuel to a fire that's already burning a bit too
brightly.


Vale optime,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
It is sweet and glorious to die for one's country.
-- Horace, "Carmina"

pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote: Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:05:44 -0000
From: "pompeia_minucia_tiberia" <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>
To: Pompeia_Minucia_Tiberia@...
Subject: Re: Fwd: THE COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA IS SUMMONED (REVISED)

Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus Novae Romae S.P.D.

The contio and voting schedules of the most recent summoning of the
Comitia Populi Tributa, detailed below, are hereby changed as
follows:

Contio began on March 28 2400 hours Roman Time and is extended to
April 24 2359 hours Roman Time. Voting shall commence April 25 2400
hours Roman Time and shall end April 30 2400 hours Roman Time.

Valete

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pompeia Minucia Strabo

wrote:
Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus Novae Romae S.P.D.

>
> The required auspices have been taken and deemed favourable by

Consul, Pontifex et Augur G. Fabius Buteo Modianus.

>
> Schedule is as follows:
>
> Contio shall begin March 28, 2400 hrs Roman time and shall

continue until April 2, 2400.

>
> Voting shall commence April 3, 0001 Roman Time and shall

continue until April 4, 2400 Roman Time. Voting shall be suspended
until April 24 2400 hours Roman Time due to nefasti where no voting
is permitted. Voting shall resume April 25, 0001 Roman Time until
April 30, 1800 hrs Roman Time.

>
> ******
>
> Matters of Election:
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________

>
> Election of Editor Commentariorum:
>
> Candidate seeking approval: Titus Marcius Felix, Citizen 8193,

Plebian, Assuidi, Citizen since 2004/11/18

>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
_

>
>
> Lex Moravia Minucia de Civitate Eiuranda
>
> I. The lex Cornelia et Maria De Civitate Eiuranda is hereby

repealed.

>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-05-20-iii.html
>
> II. The Lex Equitia de Civitate Eiuranda is hereby repealed.
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/letes/2004-10-07-v.html
>
>
> III.A: Citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in paragraph

II.A.4. in the Constitution of Nova Roma, may be voluntarily
relinquished by notification of the Censors or by public statement
before 3 or more witnesses. Messages posted to official Nova Roma e-
mail lists or electronic message boards, or statements of an intent
to resign citizenship that are made at a public function of Nova
Roma meet the requirement for three witnesses to a resignation if
and only if three witnesses to the resignation notify the Censors
thereof within 72 hours of the initial proclamation. In accordance
with the Constitution

> II.A.5 a parent or guardian, as above, may voluntarily rescind

citizenship of Impuberes.

> B. The Censor(s) shall, at their earliest convenience, but no

later than within seven days, issue to the citizen in writing or by
electronic message an official acknowledgement of this intent to
resign citizenship. Resignation becomes effective within 48 hours
from the date and time the Censor(s) issue such acknowledgment.

> C. Before such time that a resignation of citizenship would come

into effect, a citizen may rescind his or her intention to resign,
or a legal guardian may rescind the intention to resign of an
impubere, by writing or by sending an electronic message to the
Censors or to a Rogatoral designate of the Censors.

>
> IV Failure to respond to a Nova Roma census, as per legal

obligation, places an individual's citizenship in temporary
suspension. A citizen under suspended citizenship may be given a
designation other than citizen, as prevailing law provides.
Suspended citizenship may be lifted by the individual notifying the
Censors of his or her intent to renew active citizenship, by
responding to the following census, or by paying annual dues within
the following year. Individuals who are under suspended citizenship
are not to be counted as assidui or as capiti censi, and thus
temporarily lose the right vote, but retain all other rights of
citizenship. If within a five-year period an individual member fails
to respond to two consecutive censuses, the Censors may rescind the
individual's citizenship and all its attendant rights.

>
> V. A: If citizenship is resigned without also stating that

public offices are resigned, any and all public offices held by the
citizen at that time become vacated when a resignation of
citizenship comes into effect. No public offices, elected or
appointed, carry over into a new citizenship if a resigning citizen
should later seek to reacquire citizenship.

>
> VI.A: A former citizen, in the event he or she desires to

reacquire citizenship must reapply for citizenship to the Censors
through prevailing legal procedures. Additionally, the former
citizen is directed to state in his or her application the reasons
behind the initial resignation of citizenship, and the nature of the
reasons influencing the desire to have it reinstated.

> B: The Roman name of a returning citizen may be resumed if no

other citizen of Nova Roma has taken it in his or her absence

>
> VII. When a former citizen applies for reinstatement of

citizenship (postliminium):

>
> No office, religious or civil, held by the citizen at the

time of his or her resignation, is regained if that person is
granted citizenship once more. After ninety days of being reinstated
into citizenship, the returning citizen may apply to the Collegium
Pontificum for reappointment to any religious offices that he or she
may have previously held. Only the Collegium Pontificum, or
otherwise designated religious body, is authorized to reappoint a
returning citizen to a religious office.

> Any titles, honors and/or effects of past public

administrative offices shall be restored to the returning citizen
only after a period of ninety days has passed from the date that
citizenship is regained. Century points that are due to a returning
citizen for any and all public and/or religious offices that he or
she may have previously held shall be restored at the end of ninety
days.

> Senatorial status may be resumed at the discretion of the

Censors collegially

>
>
> VIII. If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and

resigns a second time, this former citizen is barred for two years
from reinstatement as a citizen of Nova Roma.

>
> IX.A: This lex does not influence in itself a returning

citizen's lawfully established entitlements or restrictions to
pursue official positions (via election or appointment) for which he
or she would again become eligible. All rights of citizenship are
restored in full to a returning citizen after ninety (90) days from
when a censor re-enrolls a citizen. At the discretion of the Senate,
the normal waiting period may be waived and full rights of
citizenship restored prior to the ninety-day period.

> B: Further, the language of this lex does not in itself serve to

influence those established lawful authorities or parameters by
which religious and/or legislative bodies may issue or fail to issue
appointments relative to their respective roles and functions, in
the consideration of any citizen's application.

>
> X. The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn

resignations in the censorial album civium.

>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
_

>
>
> Lex Moravia Minucia Abdicatone Magistratum Comitium Plebium

Tributum et Comitium Populum Tributum

> I This Lex pursues the constitutional language of Section

IV, headed 'Magistrates', which states that an office becomes
vacant when a magistrate resigns or dies.

> II.This lex clarifies the legal definition of magisterial

resignation, consequences of resignation, and those procedures
legally necessary to validate and remedy magisterial vacancy due to
resignation of office.

>
> III. The language of this lex is binding on resignations of

magisterial offices elected in the Comitia Populi Tributa and in
the Comitia Plebis Tributa.

>
>
> IV. A tendered resignation from an elected office becomes

legal and binding once receipt of same is acknowledged to the
resigning Magistrate by an appropriate presiding official (defined
below) of the comitia by which he or she was elected.

>
>
>
> A i. Resignation of an office elected in the Comitia Plebis

Tributa is tendered in writing to the Tribuni Plebii or tendered in
writing in the presence of three or more Plebian citizens, who shall
witness and communicate the resignation to the Tribunes. Once
advised of a resignation, the Tribuni Plebii shall respond in
writing to the resigning magistrate within 24 hours, in order to
acknowledge the tendered resignation, and a vacancy of that office
is legally established.

>
> A. ii Elections shall be held in the Comitia Plebis Tributa

within 45 days of the established vacancy for a suffect
magistrate,according to prevailing legal procedure governing
elections of this comitia.

>
> Aiii
> This lex does not in itself restrict a former magistrate from

standing for election in the Comitia Plebis Tributa to fill the
vacancy caused by his or her resignation.

>
> B i Resignations of offices elected in the Comitia Populi

Tributa are to be tendered in writing to the Consuls, or tendered
in writing in the presence of three or more citizens,who shall
acknowledge and communicate receipt of the resignation to the
Consuls. Once advised of the resignation, the Consuls shall respond
in writing within 24 hours to the resigning magistrate in order to
acknowledge the tendered resignation, and a vacancy of that office
is thereby legally established.

>
> B.ii Elections shall be held in the appropriate comitia within

45 days of the established vacancy for a suffect magistrate,
according to the respective prevailing laws governing elections in
the Comitia Populi Tributa.

>
> Biii This lex does not in itself restrict a former magistrate

from standing for election in the Comitia Populi Tributa to fill the
vacancy caused by his or her resignation.

>
> V. Consuls may not accept resignations of offices elected of

the Comitia Plebis Tributa.

>
>
> VI. The presiding comitia magistrate who lawfully acknowledges

receipt of a resignation of office to the tendering magistrate as
detailed in Ai and Bi, shall be responsible for communicating this
information to the Censors, the Magister Aranearius and the
citizenry via public fora within 48 hours.

>
>
> VII. Accreditation of century points for partial service of a

term of office shall not be affected by this lex.

>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
__

> Lex to Repeal Current Items of Legislation
>
> I don't have a proper Latin name for this measure yet, but

comitia's

> approval of this item will officially repeal the following

legislations:

>
> Lex Arminia Equitia de Dignitate Curule
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-06-30-ii.html
>
> Lex Arminia Equitia de Sanctitate
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-08-13-i.html
>
>
> The last lines of both these leges (above) nullify their

respective legal and binding forces. Further, there is no
corresponding constitutional language that I can see to clarify
their legal purpose. Although they are remarkable from an academic
standpoint, the language of these legislations has caused issues of
controversy, which might ( atleast theoretically) be avoided in
future if we repeal them officially.

>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> Those voters who do not have a voter code or who do not remember

their voter code are asked to contact the Censor's office to obtain
one as you will require this for voting.

>
> Censors@...
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote: Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:01:20 -0000
From: "pompeia_minucia_tiberia" <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>
To: Pompeia_Minucia_Tiberia@...
Subject: Re: Fwd: THE COMITIA CENTURIATA IS SUMMONED (EXTENDED CONTIO)

---Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus S.P.D.

The contio and voting schedule for the most recent summoning of the
Comitia Centuriata, detailed below, are changed as follows:

Contio began Mar 28 2400 hours Roman Time and shall extend until
April 24, 2359 hours Roman Time. Voting shall commence April 25,
2400 hours Roman Time and shall end April 30 2400 hours Roman Time.

Valete




In NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com, Pompeia Minucia Strabo

wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Comitia Centuriata is hereby summoned.
>
>
> The required auspices have been taken and deemed favourable by

Consul, Pontifex et Augur G. Fabius Buteo Modianus.

>
> Schedule is as follows:
>
> Contio shall begin March 28, 2400 hrs Roman time and shall

continue until April 2, 2400.

>
> Voting shall commence April 3, 0001 Roman Time and shall

continue until April 4, 2400 Roman Time. Voting shall be suspended
until April 24 2400 hours Roman Time due to nefasti where no voting
is permitted. Voting shall resume April 25, 0001 Roman Time until
April 30, 1800 hrs Roman Time.

>
> ******
>
> Matters of Election:
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lex Moravia Minucia Abdicatone Magistratum Comitium

Centuriatum I This Lex pursues the constitutional language of
Section IV, headed 'Magistrates', which states that an office
becomes vacant when a magistrate resigns or dies.

> II.This lex clarifies the legal definition of magisterial

resignation, consequences of resignation, and those procedures
legally necessary to validate and remedy magisterial vacancy due to
resignation of office.

>
> III. The language of this lex is binding on resignations of

magisterial offices elected in the Comitia Centuriata.

>
>
> IV. A tendered resignation from an elected office in the

Comitia Centuriata becomes legal and binding once receipt of same is
acknowledged to the resigning Magistrate by the appropriate
presiding officials (defined below) of the comitia by which he or
she was elected.

>
>
>
> A i Resignations of offices elected in the Comitia Centuriata

are to be tendered in writing to the Consuls, or tendered in writing
in the presence of three or more citizens,who shall acknowledge and
communicate receipt of the resignation to the Consuls. Once advised
of the resignation, the Consuls shall respond in writing within 24
hours to the resigning magistrate in order to acknowledge the
tendered resignation, and a vacancy of that office is thereby
legally established.

>
> A.ii Elections shall be held within 45 days of the established

vacancy for a suffect magistrate, according to the prevailing
legislation governing elections in the Comitia Centuriata.

>
>
> V. This lex does not in itself restrict a former magistrate from

standing for election in the Comitia Centuriata to fill the vacancy
caused by his or her resignation.

>
>
>
> VI. Once the Consuls lawfully acknowledge receipt of a

resignation of office to the tendering magistrate as detailed in Ai
above, they shall be responsible for communicating this information
to the Censors, the Magister Aranearius and the citizenry via
public fora within 48 hours.

>
>
> VII Accreditation of century points for partial service of a

term of office shall not be affected by this lex.

>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> Those voters who do not have a voter code are asked to contact

the Censors to obtain one as you will not be able to log into the
Cista without this assigned code. Please write Censors@...

>
>
> Valete
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
__

>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Apollonius M. Moravio omnibusque sal.

Just a little note:

> ... A former consul could be allowed to
> use "consularis"
> in his or her signature. None of the other
> magisterial offices are
> really entitled to retain such an honor...

For a former consul to call himself "consularis" isn't
really an honour, it's just a factual description.
"Consularis" is simply a Latin word meaning "former
consul".

There are similar words for all offices. A former
dictator is a dictatorius. A former censor is a
censorius. A former praetor is a praetorius. A former
aedilis is an aedilicius. A former tribune is a
tribunicius. A former quaestor is a quaestorius. Have
I missed any?

So you, for example, are just as much entitled to call
yourself tribunicius as, say, Flavius Vedius is to
call himself consularis.



___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

Salve optime Flavi Aureliane

There was a very clear distinction between what the Roman State used
as its civil calendar and what was correct and proper in maintaining
the rites of the religio Romana. Something I once proposed to the
Collegium Pontificum and maybe we shall visit again. I can see
where those who are not cultores Deorum might confuse the two. I do
not see where a non-practitioner of the religio Romana should find
it so difficult to understand that to those of us who are cultores
Deorum that we would take a very different view of our religious
traditions than that they are merely a state function.

As a former flamen Cerealis in Nova Roma, as flamen Cerealis in SVR,
and as current flamen Carmentalis now in Nova Roma, I applaud your
efforts to conduct proper rites for sacrissima Ceres Mater in the
real world rather than in some illusionary virtual reality, and on
the proper dates, not by a Gregorian date. I am also very pleased
that you will be including rites for Dea Flora, being that She is a
patron Goddess of gens Moravia and held dear in my family tradition
as a Daughter of Ceres Ferentina. Recte est. I shall join with you
on those dates in preforming rites upon the altar in my hortus
Cerealis for Ceres Ferentina and Dea Flora. And hope that later this
year I may meet with you for the festivals of September.

Optima habe Fortuna. Di Deaeque te omnes semper ament

M Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
Flamen Carmentalis


Seneca Hercules Furens 229

"For you, Goddess of the Fruits of the Earth, your secret rites I
will fund; in your shrine at Eleusius shall burn the sacred flame in
celebration of your mysteries."



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:

>
> A. Apollonius Flavio Galerio omnibusque sal.
>
> > The ludi are attendant to the Cerealia not an
> > original part of the celebration of the public rites
> > to Ceres. Also, if we go by the strictest
> > interpretation of Roman calendar, the ludi Cerealia
> > would be celebrated at the end of the modern April
> > Gregorian according to the Julian calendar.
> > However, my reasons for doing the combination are
> > two fold. First, as the flamen Cerialis I believe
> > that the Goddess in the Grain should be offered
> > games in the real world rather than in a mostly
> > electronic format (sorry about the lack of horse &
> > chariot races) along with celebratory rites.
> > Second, I will still conduct the Cerealia rite on
> > the proper Gregorian date of April 19. In regards
> > to the aediles, I am sure that you are aware that
> > the Plebeian Aediles traditionally derive their
> > powers and functions from the aedes (temple) of
> > Ceres so I am merely paying for the games out of my
> > own sacred funds rather than burdening the Republic
> > with the expense.
>
> So hang on - you actually *are* saying that you are
> unilaterally taking over the organization of two of
> Nova Roma's official ludi from the aediles, and that
> you are going to hold these official ludi in
> Tennessee, where the large bulk of the population will
> be unable to enjoy them? And you actually *are* saying
> that you have unilaterally altered the official
> religious calendar of Nova Roma? I simply can't
> believe that that's what your saying. It would be
> totally mad. Please tell me I've misunderstood you and
> that you are *not* in fact claiming to have the
> authority to change the official calendar and take
> over the organization of the official ludi.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide

with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

>

Salve

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Domitius Cato"
<dcwnewyork2002@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Druse,
>
> Whilst I like many of Gene Rodenbery's works, this episode was
> shallow and pandering to christians. Before the christians throw
> stones at the Romans, they should remember their own bloody

history:

> The murder of Hypatia by the bishop of Alexandria, the crusades,

the

> annilation of the pagan Prussians by the Teutonic Knights, the
> Spanish Inquisition, the killing of their follow christians in the
> endless religous wars between the Protestants and Catholics after
> the reformation, modern Northern Ireland, I could go on and on...
>
> So who is the blood thirsty monsters?
>
> C. Domitius Cato

To interject into this conversation and hopefully not stir the pot
too much, as a Roman Christian, I don't think I need to remember
any "bloody history" since nearly all of it occurs well after the age
of Rome and often bears little connection to my beliefs. Caligula was
a madman, yet Rome's highest official- do we condemn all of Roman
history by him or the many, many other Romans like him? It would be
less a broad brush to do so than what you are doing with the
Christianity of billions of people over two thousand years.

Humanity has a bloody history, whether they called themselves
Christians or Romans or anything else though under the reign of
republic or empire, it was the Christians that were killed, rarely
the other way around. Even today, in "modern, enlightened society"
mythology is yet alive- Hypatia was killed by a mob in an otherwise
cosmopolitan city where paganism was at least well-tolerated. She
would not have ascended to such great heights of scholarly and
religious reknown if it wasn't and issues related to her gender and
power played as much in her death as part as anything else.

But I won't throw stones. I have been instructed not to- and by one
greater than you.

Respectfully,

Vale.

L. Fidelius Graecus

C. Equitius M. Moravio Piscino quiritibusque sal.

Salve et salvete.

PISCINUS DIXIT: "One problem with the last census is the time period
in which it was conducted. Not everyone has access to a computer in
the summer months."

CATO: So hold the census in Ianuarius. Done. Next?

PD: "Well, that is not quite true as capiti censi do get to vote,
although they do not have much of an influence on voting due to how
they are apportioned."

CATO: Yep, you're right, my mistake. So if a citizen doesn't pay
taxes they can't run for office, as per our macronational By-Laws.

PD: "OK, but once again when does a resignation from office go into
effect? One would think this is a simple matter to resolve, but as
we have seen, there are different ideas on this, and thus the same
guidelines have not always been applied."

CATO: Exactly, and that is one of the primary goals of this whole
mess of legislation. Piscinus, it doesn't take a whole lot of
imagination to say that when a magistrate announces their resignation,
they've resigned. It's common sense. It's done. As far as *where*
or *to whom*, my proposal answers that quite clearly - they post it in
the Forum (the "Main List"). Done.

PD: "Fair's fair, so I think they should have some second chance
available."

CATO: First off, "fair" would be for a magistrate to stick to the job
for which they offered themselves and to which they were elected.
"Responsibility" is another word that pops into mind as well. Second,
they *do* have a "second chance", or a third, or a fourth - they
announce their candidacy for the magistracy. Let the People decide.

PD: "The other way is to have no "grace period" but to ensure that the
resigning magistrate who has a change of heart would be allowed to run
in the election to fill the vacancy. Otherwise we would punish people
for resigning office."

CATO: <cough> Uhhhh....Piscinus, resignation is a BAD thing, and
should not necessarily be "punished" but should carry with it a
gravity and seriousness that we have thus far basically ignored. The
citizen who resigns a magistracy has exactly the same rights as any
other citizen to run for any office for which they are qualified under
our law; the exception is made for a citizen who resigns three or four
times in a year. They should *not* be allowed to run again for *at
least* one year, as they have shown themselves unwilling to remain in
a magistracy.

PD: "So in the case of Senator Vedius, a Pater Patriae, and one
who held several important offices, would it have been fair or
beneficial to deny him all recognition of his past contributions?"

CATO: Again, you use the word "fair". Why? Was it "fair" for him to
have resigned (not once but twice)? Was it "beneficial" to the
Republic to have one of its founders reject it - twice?

Look, the point of my proposing such black-and-white decisions is
precisely because until now we have waffled and back-stepped and
fallen all over ourselves in an effort to hold the hands of citizens
who ran for office, took the job, then dumped us, some after
expressing quite unkind sentiments to the citizens and the Republic
itself. If we set up a simple yet strict framework, then incoming
citizens (and future magistrates) will know *exactly* what we expect
and what they're getting into. We need to start treating each other
like adults (except for the impuberes, of course) and start treating
the Republic with respect.

Vale et valete,

Cato

OOO!!! You got me!!!

Maxima Valeria Messallina

pompeia_minucia_tiberia <pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:
........April Fools!!!

hah hah :>)

Cheers
Pompeia

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Cato,

gaiusequitiuscato wrote:

> CATO: So hold the census in Ianuarius. Done. Next?

Bad idea. In January the new censor has just come into office and is
learning the mechanics of the job. Better to wait until at least March
to begin the census.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Salve Marce Horati,

marcushoratius wrote:

> There was a very clear distinction between what the Roman State used
> as its civil calendar and what was correct and proper in maintaining
> the rites of the religio Romana.

What? Where do you get this from? The Collegium Pontificum *sets* the
calendar, and includes in that the definitions of all the religious
festivals.

Vale,

-- Marinus

M. Hortensia A. Apollonio quiritibusque spd;
Aurelianus may conduct any unofficial rite he wishes, but
he absolutely cannot as Flamen Cerealis change the date or hold the
games. This is the province of the Plebian Aediles. Eheu!! Off I go
to speak to our Consules....thanks Corde I didn't catch it, I
naturally assumed it was unofficial; who on earth, knowing the
religio would do such a thing?
vale
Marca Hortensia Maior, Aedilis Plebis

> So hang on - you actually *are* saying that you are
> unilaterally taking over the organization of two of
> Nova Roma's official ludi from the aediles, and that
> you are going to hold these official ludi in
> Tennessee, where the large bulk of the population will
> be unable to enjoy them? And you actually *are* saying
> that you have unilaterally altered the official
> religious calendar of Nova Roma? I simply can't
> believe that that's what your saying. It would be
> totally mad. Please tell me I've misunderstood you and
> that you are *not* in fact claiming to have the
> authority to change the official calendar and take
> over the organization of the official ludi.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide

with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

>

M. Hortensia Aureliae spd;
I'm with Consul Strabo, what a fantastic article. Thank you so
much for posting this! There always was an indigenous cult of Sol in
Rome, towards the end of the Empire due to Elgabalus & Aurelian is
became enormously poplular!
I would love to go to Turkey and view the splendid ruins,
bene vale in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

> ---
>
>
> Salve Aurelia et Salvete Omnes;'
>
> Fascinating stuff
>
> Thanks for sharing
> Pompeia
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "G. Aurelia Falconis Silvana"
> <silvanatextrix@> wrote:
> >
> > C. Aurelia Falco Silvana omnibus civibus Nova Romae SPD.
> >
> > Out of deference to Horus the Elder, one of the Gods of the

domus,

> > we keep an eye out for sky events.
> >
> > On March 29, the world was treated to a total solar eclipse that
> cut a
> > swath across the middle of the globe. Part of that story
> especially
> > touches Nova Roma.
> >
> > Here is the text of an Associated Press article that appeared

in

> our
> > local newspaper. At the end of the article, I have put a link

to

> Sky &
> > Telescope's news story on the eclipse which covers different
> viewing
> > sites and contains some spectactular photos.
> >
> > WORLD ECLIPSE DELIGHTS VIEWERS
> > [my emphases below]
> >
> > SIDE, Turkey (AP) -- Thousands of skygazers gathered in an

ancient

> > temple of Apollo -- the sun god -- and let out cheers Wednesday

as

> > a total solar eclipse turned the day into twilight, casting an
> eerie
> > blue
> > glow across the sky and the Mediterranean Sea.
> >
> > NASA astronomers handed out protective glasses to hundreds of
> > Turkish children before the eclipse cut a dark swath across the
> sky--
> > a band that stretched from Brazil across West Africa, Turkey and
> > Central Asia, then disappeared at sunset in Mongolia.
> >
> > The last total solar eclipse was in November 2003, but that was
> best
> > viewed from sparsely populated Antarctica. Wednesday's eclipse
> > blocked the sun in highly populated areas.
> >
> > In Ghana, automatic street lamps switched on as the light faded,
> and
> > authorities sounded emergency whistles in celebration.
> Schoolchildren
> > and others across the capital, Accra, burst into applause.
> >
> > Muslims in Iraq gathred at mosques during the eclipse for a

special

> > prayer reserved for times of fear and natural disaster.
> >
> > In the Turkish resort of Side (pronounced SEE-deh), a crowd of

some

> > 10,000 began cheering and whistling as the moon took its first
> bite out
> > of the sun. When the moon masked the sun and Venus suddenly
> > appeared in the blue glow of the darkened sky, another loud cheer
> > went up.
> >
> > "It's one of those experiences that makes you feel like you're
> part of
> > the larger universe," said NASA astronomer Janet Luhmann, who
> > witnessed the eclipse from the ruins of an ancient roman theatre
> just
> > a few hundred metres from the temple of Apollo.
> >
> > It was "spiritual and emotional," said Brian Faltinson of

Victoria,

> > B.C.,
> > who was watching his second eclipse. "It just about made me

cry."

> >
> > As the moon covered the sun, the temperature dropped quickly and
> > some skygazers put on sweaters. The sun blackened and a fiery

rim

> > surrounded it; the sky turned an eerie dark blue while a bright
> sunset
> > red could be seen on the horizon.
> >
> > There was a festive atmosphere in Side, with people gathered on

the

> > fallen stones and collapsed columns of the temple dedicated to
> > Apollo or on rocks at a beach about 10 metres away.
> >
> > A string quintet played classical music at the foot of the

temple's

> > five standing pillars and a Trukish brewery distributed free

beer.

> > Vendors hawked eclipse T-shirts and at one point, the stargazers
> > began waving to a nearby cruise ship.
> >
> > "It was a special ambiance," said astronomer Slobodan Ninkovic
> > who drove from Belgrade, Serbia. "We were inside an ancient
> > city -- it was very impressive."
> >
> > Children sat on the ruined stone steps of the second-century
> > Roman theatre and watched as astronomers from NASA and the
> > Sand Francisco-based Exploratorium science museum, using
> > large telescope and cameras, broadcast the phenomenon live
> > on the internet.
> >
> >
> > SKY AND TELESCOPE news feature is at:
> >
> >
>

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/eclipses/article_1706_1.

> asp
> >
> >
> >
> > Valete bene in pace Dei Hori.
> >
> > C. Aurelia Falco Silvana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus S.P.D.

I've been asked for an opinion on this...if you are going to throw
tomatoes at me I prefer Roma...ripe Roma

From a civil standpoint, I comment, based on my knowledge of the
Religio Romana....and with equal respect to the Aediles, People, CP
etc.

The Ludi, as I understand from reading, are a part of a religious
festival.

The chariot races, venatione, public sacrifices and private
mutitatione (sp?) are all a part of the Megalesia, in celebration of
the Magna Mater.

The races, games, quizzes, whatever, and the ritual sacrifice (ludi)
are a part of the Festival of Ceres, known as the Cerealia. Rarely
are all components of a festival held in one day. The Megalesia runs
for a week. Saturnalia had to be shortened in antiqua...it was getting
rather long apparently at one point. The religious calendar varies
from year to year, and yes, the Collegium is responsible for setting
that...specifically the Pontifices...we have the one on the website
and the one Metellus Pontifex issues so that can be a variation in
itslef.

As for any civil laws broken here....the language in the Lex Arminia
de Officius Aedilium Plebis obligates the Curule and Plebian Aediles
(or Tribunes is need be) to make sure two "ludi" celebrations occur:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-06-02-v.html

Now does this mean the entire festivalincluding sacrifice..or games in
celebration of these deities? In the strictest sense no. We have had
ludi with no sacrifice or ritual per se...an opening/dedication of
sorts...but from then on, games... And I think this is how we've come
to conceptualize the 'ludi'...as the whole festival.

((dodges tomatoes)

Does Aurelianus mean to unilaterally seize official presidence over
the Cerealia and Floralia? I do not think so. In message 43031 he
states that the Ludi are attendant to the Cerealia. He is not, he
says, holding chariot races (might be rather expensive, but...wait!...
just get some of those Nashville Drivers at supper time, there's the
ticket..really) ...anyway..he isn't holding 'games'.
He is going to hold a celebration, including if I understand him, a
ritual type event at a date which he feels is more traditional than
the date commonly recognized in Rome.

My conclusion is that he is not interfering with the games of Nova
Roma to be held in celebration of Ceres et Flora. He is not
attempting to interfere with the Aedile's authority to do that that I
can see, although Aurelianus seems to use the term Ludi to mean the
entirety of the festival which is not so..and he's stated that he
knows that...but he's likely feeling a bit under the gun, when there
is no need to, when he's discussing holding a ritual to Ceres in Nova
Roma.

If his perfoming this celebration of faith is in angst of the calendar
to the extent that we are going to 'forbid' a face-to-face religious
celebration as its date is in dispute, then we must take our complaint
to the Collegium Pontificium; it is not the agenda of the Consuls from
my perspective. No civil laws are broken.

If I thought he was trying to overrun the Aediles' authority, I would
surely say so.

What if he were to say...I'm preforming an official ritual as Flamen
Ceralis at my home on April 19...but I'm not having chariot
races...want to do something 'real', and I think this date is more
auspicious...would there be this much of a fuss?

It is not the Aediles who are being shortchanged of authority...it is
again the people who want to perform rituals in their own backyard who
are being told they 'can't'...by those who really don't understand how
important their religion is to them. If Aurelianus is not breaking
any macronational laws, he is within his civil rights, and he is not
in contravention of the Lex Arminia de Officius Aedilium Plebis.
Again, the Collegium Pontificium would be the authority to 'complain
to'.

A ritual was held at Fort Malden in 2002 by Valeria Secunda and Festus
Secunda, and there is some wheat buried in my backyard...this was done
in August...I guess you could call it an official ritual...but we
didn't obtain any special permission, except that I was Governor and
Praetor and I didn't have a problem with it...Shall we report to the
Tullian Keep?

Let's be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water here.

Do not let legalistic thinkers lure you into disputes where quite
possibly none exist, be you magistrate, priest(ess) or privatus.
The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath' is as close as
I can come to an analogy. Remember that a ludi had to be 'unvetoed' to
be held... yes,vetoed on a technicality last year...yeah..Do not allow
core missions on NR, things important to you to be defeated.

And again, the Collegium Pontificium is the place to take a complaint
of this nature, if it is to be addressed at all.

(I said "ROMA" Tomatoes!!!!)

Valete

Edictum Propraetore America Austroccidentalis Provincia

Edictum IV - Appointment of Legate

I, Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia, do hereby appoint Tiberius Africanus
Secondus Geminiarius to the position of Legate of the Regio of Terra
Olei (Oklahoma and Texas) in the Provincia of America
Austroccidentalis.

He shall be given the rank of 2nd Rank Officer.

No oath of office is required.

His enthusiasm is a welcomed addition to the officials of America
Austroccidentalis.

Dated April 1, 2759 A.U.C. in the Consulship of Gaius Fabius Buteo
Modianus et Pompeia Minucia Strabo

---Salvete Omnes:

I wrote in my last post:

(snip)
Now does this mean the entire festivalincluding sacrifice..or games
in
celebration of these deities? In the strictest sense no. We have had
ludi with no sacrifice or ritual per se...an opening/dedication of
sorts...but from then on, games... And I think this is how we've come
to conceptualize the 'ludi'...as the whole festival.

...Doh...! I had intended to delete and reword the line 'in the
strictest sense, no'. Consequently, the above paragraph looks a tad
dorky and I apologize for any resultant confusion. In any case, what
I intended to convey, most importantly, is that I think we in NR
often conceptualize 'ludi' as being the entire religious
festival,..........and the rest of the stuff you may read if you
haven't already.



(snip)

Valete
Pompeia



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

>
> Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> I've been asked for an opinion on this...if you are going to throw
> tomatoes at me I prefer Roma...ripe Roma
>
> From a civil standpoint, I comment, based on my knowledge of the
> Religio Romana....and with equal respect to the Aediles, People,

CP

> etc.
>
> The Ludi, as I understand from reading, are a part of a religious
> festival.
>
> The chariot races, venatione, public sacrifices and private
> mutitatione (sp?) are all a part of the Megalesia, in celebration

of

> the Magna Mater.
>
> The races, games, quizzes, whatever, and the ritual sacrifice

(ludi)

> are a part of the Festival of Ceres, known as the Cerealia.

Rarely

> are all components of a festival held in one day. The Megalesia

runs

> for a week. Saturnalia had to be shortened in antiqua...it was

getting

> rather long apparently at one point. The religious calendar

varies

> from year to year, and yes, the Collegium is responsible for

setting

> that...specifically the Pontifices...we have the one on the

website

> and the one Metellus Pontifex issues so that can be a variation in
> itslef.
>
> As for any civil laws broken here....the language in the Lex

Arminia

> de Officius Aedilium Plebis obligates the Curule and Plebian

Aediles

> (or Tribunes is need be) to make sure two "ludi" celebrations

occur:

>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2004-06-02-v.html
>
> Now does this mean the entire festivalincluding sacrifice..or

games in

> celebration of these deities? In the strictest sense no. We have

had

> ludi with no sacrifice or ritual per se...an opening/dedication of
> sorts...but from then on, games... And I think this is how we've

come

> to conceptualize the 'ludi'...as the whole festival.
>
> ((dodges tomatoes)
>
> Does Aurelianus mean to unilaterally seize official presidence

over

> the Cerealia and Floralia? I do not think so. In message 43031

he

> states that the Ludi are attendant to the Cerealia. He is not, he
> says, holding chariot races (might be rather expensive,

but...wait!...

> just get some of those Nashville Drivers at supper time, there's

the

> ticket..really) ...anyway..he isn't holding 'games'.
> He is going to hold a celebration, including if I understand him,

a

> ritual type event at a date which he feels is more traditional

than

> the date commonly recognized in Rome.
>
> My conclusion is that he is not interfering with the games of Nova
> Roma to be held in celebration of Ceres et Flora. He is not
> attempting to interfere with the Aedile's authority to do that

that I

> can see, although Aurelianus seems to use the term Ludi to mean

the

> entirety of the festival which is not so..and he's stated that he
> knows that...but he's likely feeling a bit under the gun, when

there

> is no need to, when he's discussing holding a ritual to Ceres in

Nova

> Roma.
>
> If his perfoming this celebration of faith is in angst of the

calendar

> to the extent that we are going to 'forbid' a face-to-face

religious

> celebration as its date is in dispute, then we must take our

complaint

> to the Collegium Pontificium; it is not the agenda of the Consuls

from

> my perspective. No civil laws are broken.
>
> If I thought he was trying to overrun the Aediles' authority, I

would

> surely say so.
>
> What if he were to say...I'm preforming an official ritual as

Flamen

> Ceralis at my home on April 19...but I'm not having chariot
> races...want to do something 'real', and I think this date is more
> auspicious...would there be this much of a fuss?
>
> It is not the Aediles who are being shortchanged of authority...it

is

> again the people who want to perform rituals in their own backyard

who

> are being told they 'can't'...by those who really don't understand

how

> important their religion is to them. If Aurelianus is not

breaking

> any macronational laws, he is within his civil rights, and he is

not

> in contravention of the Lex Arminia de Officius Aedilium Plebis.
> Again, the Collegium Pontificium would be the authority

to 'complain

> to'.
>
> A ritual was held at Fort Malden in 2002 by Valeria Secunda and

Festus

> Secunda, and there is some wheat buried in my backyard...this was

done

> in August...I guess you could call it an official ritual...but we
> didn't obtain any special permission, except that I was Governor

and

> Praetor and I didn't have a problem with it...Shall we report to

the

> Tullian Keep?
>
> Let's be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water

here.

>
> Do not let legalistic thinkers lure you into disputes where quite
> possibly none exist, be you magistrate, priest(ess) or privatus.
> The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath' is as close

as

> I can come to an analogy. Remember that a ludi had to

be 'unvetoed' to

> be held... yes,vetoed on a technicality last year...yeah..Do not

allow

> core missions on NR, things important to you to be defeated.
>
> And again, the Collegium Pontificium is the place to take a

complaint

> of this nature, if it is to be addressed at all.
>
> (I said "ROMA" Tomatoes!!!!)
>
> Valete
>

Salve Marine!

"CN•EQVIT•MARINVS (Gnaeus Equitius Marinus)" <gawne@...> wrote:
"There was also a ritual involving the sacrifice of a puppy at a crossroad.
I'd have to look that up for the details."

I think you'll find that these were usually rites of Greek (or maybe originally Thracian origin in honour of Hecate who is associated with crossroads and particularly with places where three roads meet. The sacrifices of dogs and especially puppies was part of the cult of Proserpine as well. Hecate recieved black dogs and Proserpine white ones.

Vale

Caius Moravius Brutus


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Salve Flavi Aureliane!

Speakin as someone who doesn't even have a current passport I realise am unlikely to ever set foot on the blessed soil of Tennessee! Nonetheless I was delighted to see your announcement about the forthcoming games etc., I am glad to see the Goddesses being honoured in such a way and would like to wish you and all the participants all the very best!

"Do not speak to us about laws we carry......flowers!!!"

Vale

Caius Moravius Brutus


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OSD C. Equitius Cato

salvete omnes!

Hodie est postridie Kalendas Aprilis; haec dies fastus aterque est.

"When the night is past, and the sky is just beginning
To redden, and the birds, wet with dew, are singing,
And the traveller who's been awake all night, puts down
His half-burnt torch, and the farmer's off to his usual labours,
The Pleiades will start to lighten their father's shoulders,
They who are said to be seven, but usually are six:
Because it's true that six lay in the loving clasp of gods
(Since they say that Asterope slept with Mars:
Alcyone, and you, lovely Celaeno, with Neptune:
Maia, Electra, and Taygete with Jupiter),
While the seventh, Merope, married you, Sisyphus, a mortal,
And repents of it, and, alone of the sisters, hides from shame:
Or because Electra couldn't bear to watch Troy's destruction,
And so her face now is covered by her hands." - Ovid, Fasti IV

"And so soon as he had cut off the members with flint and cast them
from the land into the surging sea, they were swept away over the main
a long time: and a white foam spread around them from the immortal
flesh, and in it there grew a maiden...and came forth an awful and
lovely goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet.
Her gods and men call Aphrodite...because she grew amid the foam." -
Hesiod, Theogony, 185 -200

"At the wedding, Eris (Strife) threw a golden apple into the midst of
the guests. The apple bore the inscription 'for the fairest' a quarrel
arose among Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite, with each goddess claiming
the apple for herself. Eventually, they agreed to make Paris, a Trojan
prince, arbiter of their dispute. All three goddesses offered Paris
bribes; Aphrodite promised the most beautiful woman on Earth as his
wife--this was Helen, wife of Menelaus, ruler of Sparta. Paris awarded
the apple to Aphrodite and proceeded to abduct Helen." - Fritz Graf,
"Greek Mythology: An Introduction" pp.59-60

The derivation of the name of the month of Aprilis is uncertain. The
traditional etymology from the Latin aperire, "to open," in allusion
to its being the season when trees and flowers begin to "open." Since
all the Roman months were named in honour of divinities, and as April
was sacred to Venus, the Festum Veneris et Fortunae Virilis being held
on the first day, it has been suggested that Aprilis was originally
her month Aphrilis, from her Greek name Aphrodite, or from the
Etruscan name Apru.

The poet Hesiod said that Aphrodite was born from sea-foam. Homer, on
the other hand, said that she was the daughter of Zeus and Dione.

When the Trojan prince Paris was asked to judge which of three
Olympian goddesses was the most beautiful, he chose Aphrodite over
Hera and Athena. The latter two had hoped to bribe him with power and
victory in battle, but Aphrodite offered the love of the most
beautiful woman in the world --- Helen of Sparta, who became infamous
as Helen of Troy when Paris subsequently eloped with her. In the
ensuing Trojan War, Hera and Athena were implacable enemies of Troy
while Aphrodite was loyal to Paris and the Trojans.

Aphrodite was very generous in using her powers to help her followers.
She helped Meilanion gain Atalanta for his wife by giving him the
golden apples that enabled him to distract and overtake Atalanta in a
foot race. She had her son Eros strike Medea with one of his arrows so
that she would fall in love with Jason of the Argonauts, which
resulted in his overcoming her father Aeetes and gaining the Golden
Fleece. She also cared for the orphaned daughters of Panderos and
arranged for their marriages.

In other instances, Aphrodite avenged other slights by causing the
perpetrator to experience misfortune in the areas of love or beauty.
After being insulted by six of Poseidon's sons, she struck them mad so
that they gang-raped their mother. She caused Aegus to be childless
until he introduced her worship in Athens. When the women of
Astypalaea angered her by claiming to be more beautiful than she, she
made them grow cow horns. Moo.

Perhaps the most celebrated of Aphrodite's affairs was her
relationship with Ares, the god of war. Although such a union may at
first seem incongruous, it is actually a match of two divinities of
the same nature. Aphrodite, the beautiful maiden who attracts the
attention of the most powerful of the gods only to decline him,
refuses to be controlled by her marriage to Hephaestus--she will not
be denied freedom in the area of her dominion. Likewise Ares, an
alternately rageful and cowardly god, can never be predicted in his
actions.

Aphrodite's rebellious nature is reinforced by the creation of many
children by her liason with Ares. In addition, Phobos and Deimos,
Anteros, and Harmonia were even passed off as the offspring of
Hephaestus.

The ancient travel writer Pausanias describes a number of statues of
Aphrodite dressed for battle, many of them in Sparta. Given the manner
in which the militaristic Spartans raised their girls, it is not
surprising that they conceived of a female goddess in military attire.
She also would have donned armaments to defend cities, such as
Corinth, who adopted her as their patroness. This is not to say that
she was a war goddess, although some have seen her as such and find
significance in her pairing with the war god Ares in mythology and
worship.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Aphrodite (http://www.mythweb.com/gods/Aphrodite.html) and
(http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/papers/lombardiaphrodite/aphrodite.html)

C. Equitius Cato Gn. Equitio Marino sal.

Salve Censor.

> Bad idea. In January the new censor has just come into office and is
> learning the mechanics of the job. Better to wait until at least March
> to begin the census.

Point well made. So then, we could have the census coincide with the
traditional beginning of the Roman year. The idea being, of course,
that if everyone knows that the census will be taking place from the
Kalends of Martias to the Kalends of Maius, there should be precious
little chance that anyone would involuntarily "miss" it.

Vale optime,

Cato

Salvete:

The sacrifice of dogs was also a part of the Robigalia:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Robigalia.html

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 4/2/06, Caius Moravius Brutus <crwbanmor@...> wrote:
> Salve Marine!
>
> "CN•EQVIT•MARINVS (Gnaeus Equitius Marinus)" <gawne@...> wrote:
> "There was also a ritual involving the sacrifice of a puppy at a crossroad.
> I'd have to look that up for the details."
>
> I think you'll find that these were usually rites of Greek (or maybe originally Thracian origin in honour of Hecate who is associated with crossroads and particularly with places where three roads meet. The sacrifices of dogs and especially puppies was part of the cult of Proserpine as well. Hecate recieved black dogs and Proserpine white ones.
>
> Vale
>
> Caius Moravius Brutus
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Citizens of Nova Roma;

While I am fully aware of
the ideas of some in the
Roman Religio (these
feelings have been made
plain to me in the past) I
feel that I must comment on
the recent sacrificial
activities of Greek
Religious organzations.

We in Nova-Roma often wonder
what happens to our citizens
who have enrolled in NR and
then have disppeared. I
sometimes wonder if these
related discussions
regarding animal blood
sacrifice of intelligent
animals who obviously have
the ability to think, act,
love (or hate based on thier
environment) are being
killed with no concern for
thier welfare. There are
many, many if not most
people who have an affection
for our domestic animals
which are (or may be) very
often repelled by the idea
of (in their view) of
animals being slaughtered
for an individual's or a
group's religious ego.

True, the food animals in
our world are slaughtered by
the millions to provide food
for the world population.
Also true is the point that
such is not necessary to
support life today.

However, I do not speak of
logic, but rather of love
and admiration, which (may)
leads to disgust with any
organization who supports or
believes in the sacrifice of
innocent domestic anials who
are admired and loved by a
wide portion of the world's
population.

It is also very difficult
for me as a Nova Roman
Citizens and Magistrate to
encourage newcomers to an
organization which supports
the idea of domestic animal
blood sarifice.

I would suppose that the
question might be asked is
domestic (or any) animal
sacrifice worth the loss of
one, ten or a hundred
citizens??

I know what I think, which
really does not matter to
the question. I am further
aware that this question
will in all liklihood
generate some heated
discussion, but I believe
that the question is a fair
one, and one which has
caused much concern in the
past for declining
population, and how to
arrest that decline in the
most effective ways. I
submit that there is a
possibility that the support
of the blood sacrifice of
domestic animals in Nova
Roma may well have an effect
on the number of Nova Roma's
population figures. I ask
the question only for
consideration. What say
you????

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Pro-Consul, Active Senator,
and Editor Commentarium
Senoris

On 4/2/06, romanengineer <MarcusAudens@...> wrote:

>
>
> Citizens of Nova Roma;

It is also very difficult

> for me as a Nova Roman
> Citizens and Magistrate to
> encourage newcomers to an
> organization which supports
> the idea of domestic animal
> blood sarifice.

Now as a magistrate of Rome you may well have been called upon to perform
such a sacrifice. Yet you honestly couldn't support it now? I truly thought
magistrates were supposed to uphold the Religio. If our magistrates are now
openly speaking against it no wonder citizens are leaving in their droves.

I'm a private practitioner of the Religio; that's why I originally joined
Nova Roma so that I could feel secure that somewhere in the world the public
rites were being observed. I'm well aware that animal sacrifice isn't
actually happening at the moment but now we have 'magistrates' openly
speaking against it without a care or mention of what the gods think.

If you don't wish to uphold the Religio why on earth did you become a
magistrate in the first place.

I would suppose that the

> question might be asked is
> domestic (or any) animal
> sacrifice worth the loss of
> one, ten or a hundred
> citizens??

If these 'citizens' have no regard for the Religio and the gods then frankly
who cares/

Flavia Lucilla Merula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C. Equitius Cato M. Minucio Audico quiritibusque sal.

Salve et salvete.

Senator, you speak from the heart, which is always a good thing.

I would like to make two points. The first has to do with the
Republic and animal sacrifice. The College of Pontiffs has made it
quite clear (after the brouhaha about 3 years ago) that the State does
*not* subsidize animal sacrifices on any level, public or private. If
an individual does in fact offer these to the gods, they do so as an
individual and *not* on behalf of, or in conjunction with, any
official of the Republic or its religious institutions.

The second point is that I understand the emotional strength of
appealing to our personal interactions with various animals; this is
not, however, justification for the total exclusion of an act that is
religious in nature. Whether or not I stop every day to pat Fluffy on
the head, if my religious beliefs *require* that an animal or animals
be offered to God, then all emotional and personal considerations must
become secondary. This is the reason I asked under what circumstances
the Romans began their sacrificial activity; if like the Jews they
were *commanded* to do so, it brings a dimension to the question that
cannot be by-passed no matter how distasteful animal sacrifices may be
to anyone personally.

Case in point, I am not one who would welcome the return of animal
sacrifices myself --- though as I have noted earlier, due to private
theological considerations rather than animal "rights" arguments of
any kind --- but I cannot in good conscience deny the possibility that
there may be a legitimate necessity if the religio is fully restored;
my personal reluctance cannot translate into the denial of a religious
right to anyone. Intellectually, we must accept that fact that at
least hypothetically animal sacrifices are as integral a part of the
religio Romana as they were pre-A.D. 70 Judaism.

This is an absolute volte-face from how I felt when the issue was
raised three years ago, and how I would act if there came a test case
is entirely unknown :-)

Vale et vaete bene,

Cato

A. Apollonius Pompejae Minuciae omnibusque sal.

Euge! Thanks for extending the contio and (I hope)
making some revisions to the proposals.





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A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Just a quick clarification. As ought to have been
clear from what I wrote originally, I have never
suggested or meant to suggest that our good flamen has
done anything illegal, nor to suggest that he should
not go ahead with his plan. The fact that two people
with whom I happen to be in the midst of an entirely
separate disagreement have misconstrued my words and
to imply the opposite is sad, but never mind that.

My concern is simply that Flavius Galerius seems to be
operating under two misapprehensions: first, that his
planned ceremony and celebration, excellent and
unobjectionable in itself, is somehow going to
replace, rather than supplement, the official ludi
which are the responsibility of the aediles; secondly,
that his decision to hold this admirable event on a
certain day somehow changes the calendar which has
been decreed by the pontifices. Neither of these
things is, of course, possible, since it is not within
the power of a flamen to do these things. But it ought
to be perfectly clear that none of this adds up to
saying that Flavius Galerius has done anything wrong
or should be prevented from carrying out his plan.
Quite the reverse. More power to his elbow, as they say.



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Salve Tribunus Plebis M Moravius Piscinus

"Would you care to elaborate on when exactly a resignation of office comes into effect?"

Yes

Because we are in at least this area ie resignations a totally internet body, the moment your resignation is posted your office is vacant.

Just like Nova Roma would have to be told in some way that (God forbid) Magistrate Brutus Maximums has died at the ripe old are of 98 a resignation would need to be posted.

Once that is done the Consuls can call for candidates and an election can be called and held.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: marcushoratius<mailto:mhoratius@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 2:40 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: In leges Minucia Moravia


Salvete Quirites omnes

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>, "Timothy P. Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
wrote:
>
> <snipped> the
> constitution states, for those who have missed the last ten thousand
> times I have quoted it
>
> "An office becomes vacant if the magistrate resigns or dies."
>
> Simple and clear except for those who will not or can not see it.
>
> >

Not exactly the case, Praetor Galerius. Would you care to elaborate
on when exactly a resignation of office comes into effect? Any answer
you care to offer would be merely an attempt to define the
constitutional phrasing, only whatever your answer, it would not be
part of Nova Roma law. The issue has been raised in past legislation
whether to allow a tendered resignation to be rescinded within a so-
called "grace period." Under the Constitution, a rescinded
resignation is not a resignation at all, and thus your quoting the
Constitution here does not clarify anything. What the porposed lex
does is try to clarify when and how a resignation comes into effect so
that the wording of the Constitution can be applied without confusion.

For some years now Nova Roma has been tossing around different
proposals to deal with this prolem of defining exactly when a
resignation of office comes into effect. Not all of those proposals
were passed, and ones that were sometimes raised new problems. The
magistrates, yourself included, Praetor, did discuss some of the
issues involved and how we might formulate legislation that concerned
the resignation of offices. Not all of the ideas we discussed were
incorporated into the leges Minucia Moravia. However, when the consul
came to me with her proposal, I suggested some rewording that did
incorporate those ideas that we discussed earlier. So this has been
more of a collective effort than some may realize.

Consul Pompeia Minucia has introduced a new idea, one that is worth
considering and adopting. The basic principle that she assumes is
that each magistrate is responsible to the comitia that elected him or
her to office. Resignations will now have to be addressed to a
presiding officer of the respective comitia that elected a magistrate
when he or she decides to resign from office. One change that is
introduced is that the resignation comes into effect when the
presiding magistrates acknowledges the resignation in writing. The
basic idea here is quite sound, that the presiding officers of
respective comitia now take a role in determining when a resignation
has occurred. There is a practical reason for doing this, to which I
will return below.

A tendered resignation from office may be posted to an official Nova
Roma list. There are certain lists that are "official," in the words
of the Constitution, since they are supported by Nova Roma. These are
what are called the Main List, the Nova Roma Announcement Board, the
Senate list, the Comitia Plebis list and a few other special lists.
The list for magistrates created by Consul Modianus is not
an "official" Nova Roma list, but could act under the proposed lex
Minucia Moravia as a place where "three witnesses" would see a
tendered resignation. Resignations may also be sent privately to the
respective presiding officer. This is just a consideration allowed
for when the reason for resignation may concern private and personal
matters. The provision for "three witnesses" is a precautionary
measure to cover unusual and extrordinary circumstances. What
possibility we need to avoid is where one individual might claim
another person had either resigned or died and there would be no way
to verify the claim. The provisions of the lex Minucia Moravia cover
most situations, with an idea of providing a verifiable record of a
person resigning from office. A simple idea, not something mentioned
in the Constitution, but what has become practice in Nova Roma for
such situations.

The innovation is that the respective presiding officers must
acknowledge a resignation in order for it to go into effect. This is
a practical solution to ending some confusion that can arise under
current law. For example, with the resignation of citizenship, by
having a censor acknowledge a resignation, it will in effect mean that
the censores also acknowledge their responsibility to properly record
the resignation. In regard to resignations from offices, the
presiding officers of the respective comitia have a responsibility for
holding elections to replace any resigning magistrate. They must do
so within a certain allotted number of days. By mandating that they
acknowledge a resignation in writing, it firmly sets that moment,
referred to in the Constitution, when a resignation comes into effect,
and thus also clearly sets the time when new elections must be held.
Some time limits on how soon the magistrates must acknowledge a
resignation were placed in the proposed lex in order to avoid a
situation where a presiding officer might delay and thus hold open a
vacant office indefinitely. I guess that some could object that the
proposal in some way reverses roles. There is really very little that
the proposal changes in regard to what a resigning magistrate must
do. What has been done is clarify what other magistrates must do when
they become aware of a tendered resignation, and thus the proposed
legislation focuses more on this aspect of the consequences of a
resignation from office. Who is to properly receive a resignation,
when does the resignation actually come into effect, and what then
must be done? Those are the questions that the proposed lex clarifies.

The consul and I discussed allowing a delay of so many days before the
presiding magistrate would have to acknowledge a tendered
resignation. We both prefer that a grace period be incorporated into
the law. There is a practical reason to allow such, based on past
experience. However in discussing these measures with the other
magistrates, and in past discussions held in the Senate, it seemed to
us that the majority opinion opposed allowing any grace period for a
magistrate to rescind a tendered resignation. We have therefore
deferred to the majority opinion, allowing only so much time as is
practicable. In our discussions with other magistrates a compromise
was reached between those who wish to include a "grace period" and
those who flat out reject any "grace period". That compromise was
that resigning magistrates woule be eligible to run in the election
held to fill the vacancy that he or she had created. Obviously if a
resigning magistrate would turn around and run in the ensuing
election, he or she would have some explaining to do before the
electorate. But we felt that it was the comitia which should decide
whether or not to accept a resigning magistrate back into office. It
is possible, as we know from experience, that a person may tender a
resignation in reaction to one thing or another, but on sober
reflection decide not to resign. The idea that a person must be held
to a spur of the moment decision, and then barred from running for
election, is not a very prudent attitude. It would exclude some very
capable people from holding an office, when we currently have a
shortage of people who are willing to hold offices. As things are
now, Nova Roma has few contested electoral races, and sometimes not
enough candidates to fill certain offices. So we are not going to bar
people from running from office. Let the People decide.

I did not see objections raised to the one outstanding feature of the
proposed lex - the feature that makes it somewhat lengthy. This is
that the respective comitia, through their preciding officers, would
now be notified when a magistrate that they elected would resign. One
person raised an objection that simply does not exist under the
proposed legislation. A misunderstanding, no doubt, from not reading
the proposal in full. A plebeian consul cannot resign office by
notifying the Trbuni Plebis. Nor can an aedilis resign by notifying a
quaestor or any other magistratus minor. It is a presiding officer
that has to be notified, and it has to be the presiding office of the
particular comitia that elected the resigning magistrate. Here once
again is a practical provision that follows what is implicit in the
Constitution and with consideration of past Nova Roma practices.

If you want to ask how such issues were dealt with in the mos maiorum,
then there is a great deal of augural law to consider. I suggested a
book to Consul Pompeia Minucia that others may find of interest as
well. "Public Office in Early Rome: Ritual Procedure & Political
Practice," by Roberta Stewart, 1998. The highest authority in Roma
antiqua was the People assembled into comitia. Their authority was
extended to them from the Gods, and thus very rigid procedures had to
be followed when conducting a comitia in order to ensure that
the "will of the People" was in fact "the will of the Gods." Nova Roma
does not really follow the ius augurium when conducting a comitia, and
what is provided is often times being ignored. But this proposed lex
does take us closer to a basic principle that authority in Nova Roma
is retained by the People when assembled in comitia. This is
something that I find very compelling in the Consul's proposal, one
that does move us closer to the mos maiorum, and thus in keeping with
the guiding principles of Nova Roma.

I have only seen a few individuals raise any objections to the
proposed leges Minucia Moravia. I haven't yet had a chance to go
through all of them. What I have seen so far, however, are a number
of hypothetical situations proposed that simply would not arise under
the leges Minucia Moravia. Smoke and mirrors, but no real basis to
opposing the legislation. Different issues were raised by a number of
magistrates, and by some Senatores as well, while we were discussing
this proposal. The proposed legislation took into consideration a
variety of those opinions and much practical experience in trying to
develop a solution to some continuing problems Nova Roma has faced.
Consul Pompeia Minucia and I approached the issues from two different
directions in an attempt to bring comprehension proposals before the
comitia. They should be considered on the merits of what they include
and not on a lot of hypotheticals that never occurred in the past and
that cannot occur under the proposed legislation.

I urge you all to approve the proposed leges Minucia Moravia

Valete optime
M Moravius Piscinus
Tribunus Plebis







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete, omnes -

I'm setting my ML membership to "no mail" for some arbitrary period. I'm
not resigning from NR, and I am still easily reachable by private mail;
however, daily involvement in a list composed of political bickering,
gratuitous lawyering, and vicious attacks on those who try to implement
any positive changes is something I find detrimental to my own peace and
happiness. Continuing here, unless a number of radical changes occur, is
not something that I see as beneficial for me.

I'll check the NR list on Yahoo occasionally to see if anything has
changed; I'm still strongly interested in participating in Nova Roma at
her best - a Nova Roma as many of us see her in possibility. For the
moment, though, any intelligent projection that I can apply to what I
see here does not result in that outcome. I will be back if that
changes.


Valete, omnes.
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faber est suae quisque fortunae.
Every man is the artisan of his own fortune.
-- Appius Claudius Caecus

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

I can understand your feelings, and why you are passionate about this.
However, as a priest of Nova Roma and as a vegetarian and someone who
beliefs in limiting the amount of suffering in the world I am
sympathetic to this viewpoint. However, animal sacrifice done
properly is not simply a means of killing an animal and offering the
WHOLE animal to the Gods. The parts that are eatable are consumed,
and not wasted (this is the case with most sacrifices).

Most people (Americans at least) will go into the store and purchase a
pound of beef and not think anything of where it came from. As
Romans, albeit Nova Romans, we should be more mindful of what we
consume. The meals we cook in our homes should be an offering not
only for ourselves but the for the spirits that dwell within our
homes, and for the spirits of our ancestors.

It is up to us as magistrates, senators, and the leadership within
Nova Roma to educate the people and not simply raise flags against a
practice that is not only supported by Nova Roma but also a very
HUMANE way to prepare an animal for consumption.

If someone is going to consume animal flesh it is better that the
animal live a "good life" on a farm and that the animal is killed in a
ritualistic format which is humane and not a life of filth in a
factory farm only to be killed in a brutal fashion. Granted, killing
an animal even within the context of a Roman ritual is still brutal,
however, it is still far more humane than being on an assembly line of
slaughter in a slaughterhouse.

Even within Judaism in order to keep kosher the animal needs to be
butchered by a "pious" man versed in Jewish law and who understands
the necessary rituals in order to properly do the butchering. There
is a similar practice within Islam to ensure that the end result is
"Halal," which is similar to Kosher. These are thriving religious
traditions, and this country has Orthodox Jews who keep Kosher, and
Pious Muslims who keep Halal. The slaughtering proceedures of a Roman
priest (i.e., Religio) is not that much different from that of Jewish
or Islamic practice. Different, but with similarities. The slaughter
is a religious action, and not a profane one.

This is the light in which we, as Roman Magistrates, and Senators
should present such practices as ritualized animal sacrifice.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul, Flamen Pomonalis, Pontifex, and Augur

On 4/2/06, romanengineer <MarcusAudens@...> wrote:

> I know what I think, which
> really does not matter to
> the question. I am further
> aware that this question
> will in all liklihood
> generate some heated
> discussion, but I believe
> that the question is a fair
> one, and one which has
> caused much concern in the
> past for declining
> population, and how to
> arrest that decline in the
> most effective ways. I
> submit that there is a
> possibility that the support
> of the blood sacrifice of
> domestic animals in Nova
> Roma may well have an effect
> on the number of Nova Roma's
> population figures. I ask
> the question only for
> consideration. What say
> you????
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
> Pro-Consul, Active Senator,
> and Editor Commentarium
> Senoris

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

The decretum on Animal Sacrifice states in part the following:

"The Collegium does not intend to request appropriation of public
funds by the Senate for animal sacrifice until and unless a final
decision on the full restoration of the ancient cultus has been made,
a circumstance which we do not envision as likely until the
construction of public temples occurs and the fullest possible
discussion of the matter has been undertaken by the appropriate
authorities of the state."

However, EVERY ritual I have conducted was done with my own funding.
I have never requested funds for the wine, incense, or other offerings
I have made. However, the ritual was still an official action done on
behalf of the People and Senate of Nova Roma. Likewise, if a
Sacerdotes, Flamen, or Pontifex were properly trained to conduct an
animal sacrifice and financed the sacrifice from their own wealth then
it could and should still be an official action on behalf of the
People and Senate of Nova Roma. Animal sacrifice is NOT mandated upon
our priests, but those who can and are trained to do CAN do it as
official actions and on behalf of the People and Senate of Nova Roma.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul, Pontifex, Flamen Pomonalis, and Augur

On 4/2/06, gaiusequitiuscato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
> C. Equitius Cato M. Minucio Audico quiritibusque sal.
>
> Salve et salvete.
>
> Senator, you speak from the heart, which is always a good thing.
>
> I would like to make two points. The first has to do with the
> Republic and animal sacrifice. The College of Pontiffs has made it
> quite clear (after the brouhaha about 3 years ago) that the State does
> *not* subsidize animal sacrifices on any level, public or private. If
> an individual does in fact offer these to the gods, they do so as an
> individual and *not* on behalf of, or in conjunction with, any
> official of the Republic or its religious institutions.

SALVETE OMNES !

Ex Officio Curulis Aediles.

EDICTUM CURULIS AEDILES - APPOINTMENT OF THE DOMINI FACTIONES

I. Each Factio, Albata, Veneta, Russata and Praesina will have in
this year, 2759 a.U.c, a Dominus Factionum.
II. The duties of the Dominus Factionum are :
- to keep the Ludi Circenses spirit alive.
- to represent with honour his Factio.
- to enlist new members for his/her Factio.
- to do all the best for his/her Factio activities improvement.
- to manage the advertising of his/her factio on the Nova Roma
mailing lists.
III. Each Dominus Factionum will be appointed among those citizens
who answered to the Aediles call.( 22 March and 28 March 2759 a.U.c )
IV. If the number of candidates is equal with the necessary number
of Dominus Factionum, in this case four, they will be elected
automatically.
V. For the year 2759 a.U.c the following citizens are appointed :
- Factio Albata : Gnaeus Equitius Marinus.
- Factio Russata : Cnaeus Cornelius Lentulus.( new Dominus
Factionum )
- Factio Praesiana : Quintus Servilius Priscus. ( new Dominus
Factionum )
- Factio Veneta : Lucius Pompeius Octavianus.
IV. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given by Curulis Aediles, T. Iulius Sabinus and G. Equitius Cato,
this day, a.d. III Non. Apriles MMDCCLIX ( 2759 ) a.U.c in the
consulship of G. Fabius Buteo Modianus and P.Tiberia Strabo.

M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.


Caius Minucius Scaevola said in part:

> I'll check the NR list on Yahoo occasionally to see if anything has
> changed; I'm still strongly interested in participating in Nova Roma at
> her best - a Nova Roma as many of us see her in possibility. For the
> moment, though, any intelligent projection that I can apply to what I
> see here does not result in that outcome. I will be back if that
> changes.
>

I will take this moment to repeat what I have said here often in the
past. The Main List isn't Nova Roma and isn't even the best part of
Nova Roma. It is my personal opinion that the citizens who are
happiest in the Res Publica are the ones who have found other ways to
participate; other lists, face to face activities, what have you.

I hope that C. Minucius Scaevola, and all citizens, can find that part
of Nova Roma that for each makes the experience worthwhile.

optime valete!

F. Galerius Aurelianus S.P.D.

I do not believe that Nova Roma can ever expect to become a territorial
state because of our diverse membership scattered over the globe. We are a model
state according to the micronational definition but we are also a
corporation based in Maine in the USA.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

F. Galerius Aurelianus flamen Cerialis S.P.D.

This announcement is to clear up any misconceptions about the games
dedicated to Ceres Mater and Dea Flora on April 27-30, 2006 that I will
be holding at the 9th Pagan Unity Festival.
One, I am not pre-empting the existing dates of the Ludi Cerialia that
is normally held on April 12-19. I am simply not going to ask the
Plebeian Aediles to conduct them in the largely electronic format that
most people associate with the ludi within Nova Roma. To be frank, my
predecessor did hold games to Ceres Mater but I have never done so.
However, I have always held the rites to Ceres Mater on April 19 and
published the ritual on the NR ML and to several associate lists.
Two, I am holding these games within an environment that will be
attended by a number of Nova Romans citizens including several members
of my family, who will have the opportunity to participate in the rites
and games dedicated to Ceres Mater and Dea Flora. However, this event
is not an official NR function such as the Elysium Gathering in
September because I choice not to request official sanction. As it is
not an official function of NR the Plebeian Aediles do not have to be
involved but I would welcome their assistance if they want to volunteer
to come to the Festival.
Three, I have already asked L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur if the
auspices are favorably to hold the combined games and he has assured me
that the games are viewed favorably. A Piaculum of wine and incense
will be offered to Ceres Mater and Dea Flora to placate Them if
anything in the rites is displeasing to them.
Four, the restoration of the Cult of Ceres Mater is under the exclusive
control of the flamen Cerialis so long as he abides by the decreta of
the CP, does not harm the Senate and People of Nova Roma, and follows
the traditional forms of the sacra and religio. I am not breaking any
of the decreta nor any of the leges of Nova Roma by holding games under
the authority of my flaminate. I would wish that the flamen Floralis
would assist me with this event but he has not responded to my numerous
requests on various lists.
Five, to all those who have congratulated or encouraged my initiative
in holding celebratory games to these Goddesses, thank you. To those
of you who do not understand my motives or believe I am doing something
wrong, please write me for clarification. Please remember that I am
holding these games on behalf of Nova Roma and all who are cultores.
Six, well to be honest, there is no six but I am sure someone will
raise some topic that will require me to explain with a six or seven or
eight.
Seven, no chariot races and no horse races. We will have foot races,
armored race (shield & blunt spear provided), javelin throw,
discus/rock throw, long jump, team races, team tug of war, team dodge
ball or kick ball, team jump rope, and a poetry contest.
For more information, go to paganunityfestival.org.

Vadite in pace Cereris.

C. Equitius M. Minuciae Audico G. Fabio Buteoni Modiano quiritibusque
sal.

Salvete omnes.

Consul, you lay out quite clearly the case for humane action when
dealing with the subject of animal sacrifice, as well as a simple yet
very reasonable understanding of what might constitute the proper
frame of mind in sacrificing.

The only issue I would venture to bring up is that even if it were
*impossible* to sacrifice in total accordance with your ideals of
humane action, if the Temple in Jerusalem were standing sacrifices
would still be offered in accordance with the commands of the God of
Israel.

The idea of somehow lessening the violence of animals sacrifice by
trying to be as humane as possible is honorable; there is, however, a
point at which the *acceptability* of sacrifice must take second place
to the *necessity* of sacrifice. Again, this is why I asked about the
initial catalyst of Roman sacrifice: did the gods command it or is it
a negotiable part of the religio?

If, as several citizens have pointed out, the practice of sacrifice
was in its simplest form a kind of "deal" with the gods (the quid pro
quo), the question is whether or not we can construct a deal with them
which does *not* involve sacrifice. If we can, then the road becomes
much more adaptable to those who would reject animal sacrifice out of
hand. If we cannot, then a suitable response becomes necessary.

Is animal sacrifice negotiable? And on what basis is it negotiable or
non-negotiable?

Valete bene,

Cato

Salvete:

I believe *most* of the practices within the Religio are negotiable,
and consessions have been made that perhaps would not have been the
case in ancient Rome.

However, I see the relationship between animal sacrifice and
non-animal offeratory rituals developing in a similar fashion as did
Yajna and Puja rituals within Hinduism. A Yajna was a complex fire
ritual that could include animal sacrifice, they are still conducted
today but are uncommon, while a Puja ritual is much more common and
done at temples all over the world, and do not involve animal
sacrifice.

I do not see it as absolutely necessary to "outlaw" animal sacrifice
within the priesthood of Nova Roma. Likewise, I don't see it as
absolutely necessary to mandate it either. Making animal sacrifice
anathama simply to "assimilate" into modern ideology is not something
I find acceptable.

Regarding the idea of "did the Gods command it..." I'm not convinced
we can truly know the answer to that. We lack much of a written
record, and we do not have an oral tradition with an unbroken line to
ancient Rome.

Additionally, I stand very strongly to the position that animal
sacrifice is not necessary, but that it is allowable under the
conditions established by the Collegium Pontificum. I will advocate
that this policy be maintained.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 4/3/06, gaiusequitiuscato <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
> C. Equitius M. Minuciae Audico G. Fabio Buteoni Modiano quiritibusque
> sal.
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Consul, you lay out quite clearly the case for humane action when
> dealing with the subject of animal sacrifice, as well as a simple yet
> very reasonable understanding of what might constitute the proper
> frame of mind in sacrificing.
>
> The only issue I would venture to bring up is that even if it were
> *impossible* to sacrifice in total accordance with your ideals of
> humane action, if the Temple in Jerusalem were standing sacrifices
> would still be offered in accordance with the commands of the God of
> Israel.
>
> The idea of somehow lessening the violence of animals sacrifice by
> trying to be as humane as possible is honorable; there is, however, a
> point at which the *acceptability* of sacrifice must take second place
> to the *necessity* of sacrifice. Again, this is why I asked about the
> initial catalyst of Roman sacrifice: did the gods command it or is it
> a negotiable part of the religio?
>
> If, as several citizens have pointed out, the practice of sacrifice
> was in its simplest form a kind of "deal" with the gods (the quid pro
> quo), the question is whether or not we can construct a deal with them
> which does *not* involve sacrifice. If we can, then the road becomes
> much more adaptable to those who would reject animal sacrifice out of
> hand. If we cannot, then a suitable response becomes necessary.
>
> Is animal sacrifice negotiable? And on what basis is it negotiable or
> non-negotiable?
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Cato

C. Equitius Cato G. Fabio Buteoni Modiano quiritibusque sal.

Salve et salvete.

MODIANUS DIXIT: "However, I see the relationship between animal
sacrifice and non-animal offeratory rituals developing in a similar
fashion as did Yajna and Puja rituals within Hinduism. "

CATO: Under whose authority would these changes be "developing"? The
College of Pontiffs? Are these changes within the scope of an
authentic restoration of the religio? And how is this position
supported by ancient authorities or modern scholarship regarding the
religio?


MD: "Making animal sacrifice anathama simply to 'assimilate' into
modern ideology is not something I find acceptable."

CATO: and here we agree entirely. One of my concerns is that we do
not dismiss sacrifice simply because modern thought finds it
distasteful. It was once considered "humane" to strangle people
before they were burned at the stake, to lessen their suffering; it
was once considered "humane" to use a guillotine instead of an axe.


MD: "Regarding the idea of 'did the Gods command it...' I'm not
convinced we can truly know the answer to that. We lack much of a
written record, and we do not have an oral tradition with an unbroken
line to ancient Rome...Additionally, I stand very strongly to the
position that animal sacrifice is not necessary"

CATO: I find this curiously contradictory; on the one hand, we don't
know if the gods have commanded practitioners of the religio to offer
sacrifices, yet you do not think sacrifices "necessary"? I am not
attacking your position, I'm just interested in how to connect these
two ideas logically.

Vale et valete,

Cato

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem II Nonas Aprilis; haec dies comitialis est.

"There loomed before me a great painting of the goddess Venus in all
her glorious nudity, feet poised upon a seashell, her golden hair torn
by faint breezes, her dreamy gaze steady, her faithful attendants the
god Zephyr who blew the breezes which guided her landward, and a nymph
as beautiful as the goddess herself who welcomed her to the shore...I
looked at the perfect figure of venus again, covering her most
intimate secret with locks of her abundant hair. I looked at the nymph
with her outstretched hand and her voluminous garments. I looked on
the god Zephyr and the goddess with him, and all of the tiny details
of the painting came to reside in my mind. " - Marius de Romanus,
"Blood and Gold" pg. 228

Like other major Roman deities, Venus was ascribed a number of
epithets to refer to different aspects or roles of the goddess.

Venus Cloacina ("Venus the Purifier"), also known as Venus Cluacina,
was a fusion of Venus with the Etruscan water goddess Cloacina, likely
resulting from a statue of Venus being prominent near the Cloaca
Maxima, Rome's sewer system. The statue was erected on the spot where
peace was concluded between the Romans and Sabines.

Venus Erycina ("Venus from Eryx"), also called Venus Erucina,
originated on Mount Eryx in western Sicily. Temples were erected to
her on the Capitoline Hill and outside the Porta Collina.

Venus Felix ("Lucky Venus") was an epithet used for a temple on the
Esquiline Hill and for a temple constructed by Hadrian dedicated to
"Venus Felix et Roma Aeterna" ("Favorable Venus and Eternal Rome") on
the north side of the Via Sacra.

Venus Genetrix ("Mother Venus") was Venus in her role as the
ancestress of the Roman people, a goddess of motherhood and
domesticity. A festival was held in her honor on September 26. As
Venus was regarded as the mother of the Julian gens in particular,
Julius Caesar dedicated a temple to her in Rome.

Venus Libertina ("Venus the Freedwoman") was an epithet of Venus that
probably arose from an error, with Romans mistaking lubentina
(possibly meaning "pleasurable" or "passionate") for libertina.
Possibly related is Venus Libitina, also called Venus Libentina, Venus
Libentia, Venus Lubentina, Venus Lubentini and Venus Lubentia, an
epithet that probably arose from confusion between Libitina, a funeral
goddess, and the aforementioned lubentina, leading to an amalgamation
of Libitina and Venus. A temple was dedicated to Venus Libitina on the
Esquiline Hill.

Venus Obsequens ("Graceful Venus" or "Indulgent Venus") was an epithet
to which a temple was dedicated in the late 3rd century BC during the
Third Samnite War by Quintus Fabius Maximus Gurges. It was built with
money fined from women who had been found guilty of adultery. It was
the oldest temple of Venus in Rome, and was probably situated at the
foot of the Aventine Hill near the Circus Maximus. Its dedication day,
August 19, was celebrated in the Vinalia Rustica.

Venus Verticordia ("Venus the Changer of Hearts"), the protector
against vice. A temple to Venus Verticordia was built in Rome in 114
BC, and dedicated April 1, at the instruction of the Sibylline Books
to atone for the inchastity of three Vestal Virgins.

Venus Victrix ("Venus the Victorious") was an aspect of Venus to which
Pompey dedicated a temple at the top of his theater in the Campus
Martius in 55 BC. There was also a shrine to Venus Victrix on the
Capitoline Hill, and festivals to her on August 12 and October 9. A
sacrifice was annually dedicated to her on the latter date.

Other significant epithets for Venus included Venus Amica ("Venus the
Friend"), Venus Armata ("Armed Venus"), Venus Caelestis ("Celestial
Venus"), and Venus Aurea ("Golden Venus").


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(mythology))

Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus S.P.D.

Just a friendly reminder..

Taxes are due by April 30, 2006. You may pay afterwards, but you will
be paying 50% extra.

Please visit www.novaroma.org...scroll down to Special Announcements.
A link is provided to the Tax Edictum and schedule. It will walk you
through the process. You may pay online via Paypal services, or you
may post your remittance (but depending on where you live on the
planet you may need to do this within the next few days to ensure it
is received by the deadline). Details on the website.

If you have further questions regarding tax payment, please write me
at the above address.

Valete

Salvete,

I had intended this to go out two days ago, but the Internet and phone
services for my entire block have been out. I'll try to get back to
anyone who has written me overr the past few days within the next day or so.

--QCMPP

==

Q. Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.

Today, I offered the following libation to Juno. Aside from the usual
toga problems, there were no ill omens observed, and all went well.
Below the text of the offering is the Calendar for this month. Nundinae
are marked with an asterisk (*).

Valete Optime,

Q. Caecilius Metellus
Pontifex

====

Iane Quirine, te hoc ture commouendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
uolens propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, te hoc ture commouendo bonas preces precor, uti
sies uolens propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Mars Pater, te hoc ture commouendo bonas preces precor, uti sies uolens
propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Quirine Pater, te hoc ture commouendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
uolens propitius mihi Senatuique Populoque Quiritium Romano.

Iane Quirine, uti te ture commouendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte uino inferio esto.

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, macte isto ture esto, macte uino inferio esto.

Mars Pater, macte iste ture esto, macte uino inferio esto.

Quirine Pater, macte iste ture esto, macte uino inferio esto.

Iuno Dea, uti pro causa fas et ius uinum commouere tibi, hoc uino quod
commoueo accipias.

Iuno Dea, si quidquam tibi in hac caerimonia displicet, hoc uino ueniam
peto et uitium meum expio.

=====

1* Kal. Apr. C F
2 a.d. IV Non. Apr. D F Ater
3 a.d. III Non. Apr. E C
4 pr. Non. Apr. F C
5 Non. Apr. G N
6 a.d. VIII Id. Apr. H N Ater
7 a.d. VII Id. Apr. A N
8 a.d. VI Id. Apr. B N
9* a.d. V Id. Apr. C F
10 a.d. IV Id. Apr. D N
11 a.d. III Id. Apr. E N
12 pr. Id. Apr. F N
13 Id. Apr. G NP
14 a.d. XVIII Kal. Mai. H N Ater
15 a.d. XVII Kal. Mai. A NP
16 a.d. XVI Kal. Mai. B N
17* a.d. XV Kal. Mai. C F
18 a.d. XIV Kal. Mai. D N
19 a.d. XIII Kal. Mai. E NP
20 a.d. XII Kal. Mai. F N
21 a.d. XI Kal. Mai. G NP
22 a.d. X Kal. Mai. H N
23 a.d. IX Kal. Mai. A F
24 a.d. VIII Kal. Mai. B C
25* a.d. VII Kal. Mai. C NP
26 a.d. VI Kal. Mai. D C
27 a.d. V Kal. Mai. E C
28 a.d. IV Kal. Mai. F C
29 a.d. III Kal. Mai. G C
30 pr. Kal. Mai. H C

It would seem to me that since the ancient Romans went through great trouble
and expense (witness required perfection, compliance, etc.) to engage in
animal sacrifice, that it is self evident that they considered it an
important part of their religion. The question of command versus contract
seems somewhat spurious to me. It was how they interacted with their gods.
If you decide to not perform sacrifices out of some modern sensitivity,
that's fine. But don't pretend that it's the same religion you've
restored. There will be many things that are "wrong" because there is
simply no way to determine the specifics of ancient practices, but
deliberate deviation in so central a question strikes me as willful. I
would imagine that the gods would be more likely to forgive lapses made out
of ignorance that out of simple modern squeamishness.

That's just my take.

--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius


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EDICTUM CONSULARE: APPLICATONS FOR PROVINCIAL GOVERNOR APPOINTMENTS

Applications are invited for Gubernatorial appointments in the following Nova Roma Provinciae:

Germania
Hibernia
Sarmatia
Venedia
America Austrorientalis
America Boreoccidentalis
California
Mediatlantica
Argentina
Australia
Asia Occidentalis
Asia Orientalis

The names of some of these provincia do not necessarily reflect their geographic boundaries. Germania, for example includes Austria and Switzerland.

For specific details, please visit www.novaroma.org 'Provincia'

Qualifications:

Must be 21 years of age at the time of appointment.
Must meet the qualifications of the following Senatus Consultum:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2000-06-02-i.html
Must be an assidus (taxpayer)

All interested applicants are to forward their resumes to Consuls@... by April 20 2006 2400 hr Roman Time.

Note: I have received a couple of applications already, which shall be given consideration along with any applications received by the above deadline. There is no need to resend your application.

Given by my hand this 3 April 2006 in the Consulship of G. Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia Minucia Strabo.




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