Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. May 21-31, 2006

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43910 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43911 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: ancient hairdressing
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43912 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2465
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43913 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: campaign at Iowa State Univ.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43914 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2465
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43915 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: campaign at Iowa State Univ.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43916 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: A reallllly stupid question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43917 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: A reallllly stupid question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43918 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43919 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: A reallllly stupid question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43920 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: CONVENTUS - Book now!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43921 From: Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: CONVENTUS - Book now!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43922 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: CONVENTUS - Book now!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43923 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43924 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: a.d. XI Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43925 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43926 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43927 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2465
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43928 From: Gaius Domitius Cato Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43929 From: Gaius Domitius Cato Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43930 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43931 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Arco Argentarii in Rome, reliefs a problem
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43932 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43933 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43934 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: a.d. X Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43935 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Eurovision song contest win to Thule!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43936 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43937 From: Caius Moravius Brutus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43938 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43939 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43940 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43941 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43942 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43943 From: Tita Artoria Marcella Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43944 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43945 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43946 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43947 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43948 From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43949 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43950 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Roma Antiqua - Self Defens: was Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43951 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43952 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43953 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: New coins!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43954 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: CONVENING OF THE SENATE FOR MAY 24, 2006 (2759)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43955 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Roma Antiqua - Self Defens: was Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43956 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43957 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43958 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Roman private weapons (ERAT: Obsolete Weapons)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43960 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Roman private weapons (ERAT: Obsolete Weapons)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43961 From: Caius Moravius Brutus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43962 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43963 From: Caius Moravius Brutus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43964 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: a.d. IX Kal. Iun. (corrected)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43965 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43966 From: jeff hennessy Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43967 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43968 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43969 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43970 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43971 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43972 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: The Genographic Project
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43973 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43974 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43975 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: List Of Roman Military Terms
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43976 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43977 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43978 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43979 From: Chris Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: APPOINTMENT OF LEGATE PROVINCIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43980 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: a.d VIII Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43981 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: APPOINTMENT OF LEGATE PROVINCIA
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43982 From: marcushoratius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43983 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43984 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Mithras shrine built in Iowa by NR citizen
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43985 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43986 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43987 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43988 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43989 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43990 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Fwd: Pagan Victory in English Court Law
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43991 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43992 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43993 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43994 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43995 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43996 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43997 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43998 From: Iulia Caesaris Cytheris Aege Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43999 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44000 From: Chris Duemmel Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: (no subject)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44001 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44002 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: a.d. VII Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44003 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44004 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44005 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44006 From: Brutus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed/ Royal Mail Odinist
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44007 From: Shadow DarkFyre Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Stranded - SOS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44008 From: Stefanie Beer Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbe
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44009 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: I'm campaigning for flamen of Portunus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44010 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44011 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: I'm campaigning for flamen of Portunus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44012 From: Legion XXIV Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2006
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44013 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-05-27
Subject: Nundinal Calendar, a.d. VI Kal. Iun. to pr. Non. Iun
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44014 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-27
Subject: a.d. VI Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44015 From: rocknrockabilly Date: 2006-05-27
Subject: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44016 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44017 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44018 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44019 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44020 From: Brutus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44021 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: EDICTUM CENSORIS
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44022 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: cleanup projects at existing shrines?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44023 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Augustus on fatherhood, according to Dio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44024 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Roman Memorial Day
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44025 From: rocknrockabilly Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44026 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44027 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44028 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Roman Memorial Day
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44029 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Roman Memorial Day
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44030 From: flavius leviticus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44031 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: a.d. IV Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44032 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44033 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Memorial Day (US)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44034 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44035 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44036 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44037 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44038 From: praxidike@gmail.com Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44039 From: praxidike@gmail.com Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44040 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44041 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Academic Book Recommendation: Vedic and Roman Cult Parallels
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44042 From: Stefanie Beer Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44043 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44044 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Augustus on fatherhood, according to Dio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44045 From: Appius Caecilius Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Academic Book Recommendation: Vedic and Roman Cult Parallels
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44046 From: qbianchiusrufinus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44047 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44048 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44049 From: M.Fatih Algan Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44050 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: a.d. III Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44051 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44052 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: CONVENTUS: Booking
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44053 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Roman Memorial Day
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44054 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman st
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44055 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44056 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44057 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44058 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: New List: Mithraic Mysteries in Anatolia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44059 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44060 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44061 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44062 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: campaign at Iowa State Univ.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44063 From: Pompeia Minucia Strabo Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Ancient Skeleton Discovered in Rome
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44064 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44065 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: New List: Mithraic Mysteries in Anatolia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44066 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: prid. Kal. Iun.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44067 From: qbianchiusrufinus Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: HBO's Series "ROME"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44068 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: HBO's Series "ROME"
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44069 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: Fwd: Pagan Victory in English Court Law EDITED POST



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43910 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
Along those lines, I have been wondering how stabile Palestine was in the 1st century. Were Romans garrisoned in every village and hamlet, or just in the captial cities? I understand that watch-towers were discovered in Jesus's home village, which leads to the question of how unsettled social conditions were if the locals needed to have their own militia in addition to whatever Roman garrisons were around? Was Judea a sort of "Mad Max" world back then?

Danni Lee

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
Salvete omnes,

I couldn't resist watching a few minutes of Ben Hur last night on PBS,
especially the chariot race.It then made me wonder; did the Roman
authorities and population in Judea have actual gladiatorial combats,
fights with animals to the death, feed criminals to wild beasts etc or
were they sensitive enough to the Jewish commandments ie, thou shalt
not kill and just stick to athletics and chariot races. I have never
come across any articles adressing this.

Thanks!

QSP





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43911 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: ancient hairdressing
Sounds like they took style tips from Ozzie Ozbourne-or maybe it was the other way around.

Danni Lee

dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:


On Sat, 20 May 2006, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

> The Avars and Magyars used rancid butter as a hair dressing but they
> date after the Roman period. British and Gallic Celts would lime their
> hair with a mixture of slaked lime and urine so that it would look like
> a crest or horse's mane. The description in the Great Cattle Raid of
> Cooley suggests that CuChulain's lime job was wearing out because his
> ends were blond, his middle tresses reddish, and his roots were dark.
> No mention if his mascara was running.
>
> Aurelianus

IIRC one of the main points in the _Tain Bo Culaigne_ was that Cuchulain
NEVER ran. Not even when it was the smart thing to do.

-- Publius Livius Triarius


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43912 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2465
Salve,

> Way to go Lordi! Finnica rules!

And today Thule teams got bronze (Finnica) and gold (Suecica) at the
ice-hockey world championships! :-) My good friend Gallus Minucius
Iovinus is probably enjoying about this too.


> And I just looked at their pics, and..ahhh, they are so pretty :>)
> Actually, if I use my imagination one of them looks like a member of
> the vet bank KISS.. ...He looks like a Klingon too...neither of
> which are bad in my view (I am a long-time Trekkie)

Eye of the beholder and so on... :-)

Vale,

Caius Curius Saturninus

Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

"All we need is lightning
With power and might
Striking down the prophets of false
As the moon is rising
Give us the sign
Now let us rise up in awe"

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43913 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: campaign at Iowa State Univ.
Salvete omnes,

I distributed almost 200 fliers for NR at ISU (summer school is in
session) last week, mostly on bulletin boards. The median survival on
BBs was about 72 hr. Any feedback?

Vale,
Appius Claudius Priscus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43914 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2465
M. Hortensia Saturnino Finnicibusque;
well cheers to those Fighting Finns! Ice hockey and
Eurovision. I've read about the latter; lol why wasn't that
professor who sings Elvis in Latin entered? The ice hockey, well I
wish I had been there:)
I shall lift my glass of wine tonight and toast the victors;Euge
Finnica!
vale
Marca Hortensia
Finnica rules!
>
> And today Thule teams got bronze (Finnica) and gold (Suecica) at
the
> ice-hockey world championships! :-) My good friend Gallus
Minucius
> Iovinus is probably enjoying about this too.
>
>
> > And I just looked at their pics, and..ahhh, they are so
pretty :>)
> > Actually, if I use my imagination one of them looks like a
member of
> > the vet bank KISS.. ...He looks like a Klingon too...neither of
> > which are bad in my view (I am a long-time Trekkie)
>
> Eye of the beholder and so on... :-)
>
> Vale,
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
>
> Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> "All we need is lightning
> With power and might
> Striking down the prophets of false
> As the moon is rising
> Give us the sign
> Now let us rise up in awe"
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
> gsm: +358-50-3315279
> fax: +358-9-8754751
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43915 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: campaign at Iowa State Univ.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "appiusclaudiuspriscus"
<appiusclaudiuspriscus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I distributed almost 200 fliers for NR at ISU (summer school is in
> session) last week, mostly on bulletin boards. The median survival on
> BBs was about 72 hr. Any feedback?
>
> Vale,
> Appius Claudius Priscus
>

Salve!

What did the fliers say?

Was there any reason that you chose last week to post them?

Does ISU have a posting policy? They may require approval to post on
uni-owned boards.

Thank you for helping to spread info about Nova Roma!

Vale

M. Lucr. Agricola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43916 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: A reallllly stupid question
Messalina,

Occasionally there is a joke in poor taste on the ML. No reason to bail.

Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43917 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: A reallllly stupid question
Modianus,

The only thing that could possibly worse than poor humor is having no sense
of humor. Lighten up.

Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43918 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
I am unaware of any amphitheatres like the Flavian in Judea however there
was a large hippodrome at Caesarea Maritima. Historically, some munerae were
held in the circuses in the Empire.

F. Galerius Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43919 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-21
Subject: Re: A reallllly stupid question
On Sun, 21 May 2006, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

> Modianus,
>
> The only thing that could possibly worse than poor humor is having no sense
> of humor. Lighten up.

A lot of us have such exzcellent senses of humor that we can even tell
when swomething's _not_ funny.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43920 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: CONVENTUS - Book now!
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

[Apologies for posting to multiple lists]

I know lots of you are hoping to come to the Conventus at Hadrian's Wall (3rd - 9th of August). If you are coming, please let us know.

We will need your payment by the * 15th of June *. Later than that, we may have to charge extra.

Within the next couple of days I'll give out details of how to pay.

More details about the Conventus can be found here:

http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/V_Conventus_Novae_Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43921 From: Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: CONVENTUS - Book now!
Salve Cordus, Amice!

I have already contacted Propraetrix Gaia Livia and You about a
month ago, but I haven't received any answer. I would appreciate it
if You contacted me privately so that we can discuss details as
Vibius Minucius Falco, Gallus Minucius Iovinus, Alex (a friend of
ours) and I will only attend the two first days.

>A. Apollonius omnibus sal.
>
>[Apologies for posting to multiple lists]
>
>I know lots of you are hoping to come to the Conventus at Hadrian's
>Wall (3rd - 9th of August). If you are coming, please let us know.
>
>We will need your payment by the * 15th of June *. Later than that,
>we may have to charge extra.
>
>Within the next couple of days I'll give out details of how to pay.
>
>More details about the Conventus can be found here:
>
>http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/V_Conventus_Novae_Romae

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus GFBM, Scriba Censoris GEM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43922 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: CONVENTUS - Book now!
A. Apollonius K. Buteoni omnibusque sal.

> I have already contacted Propraetrix Gaia Livia and You about a
month ago, but I haven't received any answer. <

I'm afraid I never received any message! I'll write to you now to discuss it.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43923 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·QVIRITIBVS·S·P·D

In order to fulfill our explicit goal to restore a Roman community
according to Roman tradition, and in order to bring the religious
institutions of Nova Roma closer to their historical counterparts in
form, description and function, I have prepared a draft to reform the
religious institutions of Nova Roma, trying to bring them closer to
their historical and, at the same time, to make them more functional.

This draft tries to define the duties of each one of the four major
priestly colleges (Quattuor Summa Collegia) that existed in Antiquity
to maintain the sacra publica, and how they shall interact with each
other in Nova Roma. A legal draft
for the internal organization of the Collegium Pontificum follows.

Further drafts to explicitly define the duties of the priesthoods and
magistracies not mentioned here will be necessary (and provided, gods
withstanding, in the future).

The precise way in which these drafts will be enacted (lex,
senatusconsultum, decreta sacerdotalia ...) is still open to
discussion. In fact, I present this draft here on the Forum to hear
your opinion. I am open to reasonable suggestions and corrections of
any kind.

------------------------------------------------------------
LEX/SENATVSCONSVLTVM/DECRETVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS

I. De Quattuor Summis Collegiis

A. The four major priestly colleges of Nova Roma shall be, in order
of precedence:

1. The Collegium Pontificum
2. The Collegium Augurum
3. The Collegium Decemvirorum Sacris Faciundis
4. The Collegium Septemvirorum Epulonum

Besides these four colleges, there shall be other religious collegia,
sodalitates and sacerdotes, both public and private.

B. Each Collegium shall have a particular area of responsibility,
authority and expertise. Consultations formulated to a given Collegium
may be referred to a different Collegium if, according to a majority
of the members of the Collegium expressing their opinion, they do not
correspond to the sphere of that Collegium.

1. The Collegium Pontificum shall have the following duties
and responsibilities:

a. To respond, upon the request of the magistrates,
the Senate, or private citizens, to consultations
about the sacra publica, the sacra privata, burial
practices and all the religious practices that do
not explicitly fall in the sphere of a different
Collegium.

b. To issue and maintain the official religious
calendar, indicating all religious festivals, dies
fasti, nefasti, comitiales and endotercisi.

c. To take care of the festivities and the temples
that do not have a specific priest assigned to them.

2. The Collegium Augurum shall have the following duties
and responsibilities:


a. To respond, upon the request of the magistrates,
the Senate, or private citizens, to consultations
about divination public divination practices and the
consecration of spaces and magistrates (jus augurum).

b. To celebrate the Augurium Salutis in times of peace
for the well-being of the Roman people.

c. To perform the inauguratio of cities, temples,
priests and magistrates.

d. To oversee and advise the magistrate (auspex) with
jus auspicium when he takes the auguries upon calling
a comitia to assemble, upon taking office as a
magistrate, at the erection of a temple, and on other
occasions, seeing that the rite was done correctly and
that nothing might invalidate it. They shall not take
the auspices themselves, nor determine how the signs
should finally be read.

3. The Collegium Decemvirorum Sacris Faciundis shall have the
following duties and responsibilities:

a. To maintain the Libri Sibyllini. To propose to the
Senate the inclusion of new texts into the Libri
Sibyllini. To maintain other officially approved
prophetic texts.

b. To consult, at the request of the Senate, the Libri
Sibyllini in order to discover the religious
observances necessary to avert extraordinary
calamities and to expiate ominous prodigies.

c. To verify the application of the Sibylline oracles.
To preside over the religious practices prescribed by
them.

d. To preside over the cleaning of the Black Stone of
Pesinunte.

e. To celebrate the games of Apollo and the Ludi
Saeculares.

4. The Collegium Septemvirorum Epulonum shall have the
following duties and responsibilities:

a. To organize the banquets of public festivals and
games, especially the Epulum Jovis.

C. Whenever a conflict concerning jurisdiction occurs between two
Collegia, the order of precedence defined in A shall be respected.

II. De numero cooptationeque sacerdotum in Summis Collegiis

A. The various Collegia shall have the following maximum number of
members:

1. In the Collegium Pontificum there shall be a maximum of
nine (9) Pontifices, including one (1) Pontifex Maximus.

2. In the Collegium Augurum there shall be a maximum of
nine (9) Augures.

3. In the Collegium Decemvirorum Sacris Faciundis there
shall be a maximum of ten (10) Decemviri Sacris Faciundis.

4. In the Collegium Septemvirorum Epulonum there shall be
a maximum of seven (7) Septemviri Epulones.

B. Each Collegium shall be responsible in front of the Senate and
the Comitia of recruiting and providing the means to instruct
prospective new members, so that the maximum number of members for
each Collegium is kept at all times.

C. Whenever a new member has to be coopted into one of the Quattuor
Summa Collegia, two current members of that Collegium shall be
selected by all the members and, between them, the two selected
members shall draw up a shortlist of three candidates. All the members
shall then elect a candidate from the shortlist. The candidate
receiving the most votes shall then be inaugurated as member of the
Collegium within one month, with all the duties and privileges
associated with the position.

III. De Responsis vel Decretis

A. The members of each one of the Quattuor Summa Collegia shall have
the duty to respond, upon request from the magistrates or private
citizens, to questions about Roman ritual practice. These responses
shall be called "decreta" (sing. "decretum") or "responsa" (sing.
"responsum").
For an official responsum to be issued, the consultation must be
officially presented, either by the consultor or by a member of the
Collegium, to all the members of that Collegium as a whole through
the public mailing list indicated for this purpose by the internal
rules of the Collegium Itself.

B. Responsa shall not state any conclusions about particular facts or
situations, but shall only state general rules of religious law.
It shall not be the task of the members of the Quattuor Summa Collegia
to apply these rules to specific situations.

C. No responsum shall be given within the first seventy-two (72) hours
from the time when the consultation is presented to the members of
a given Collegium. During that time any member of the Collegium may
request, on the same mailing list, a delay so that the question can
be discussed by all the members of the Collegium who wish to discuss
it.

D. If, after the seventy-two (72) hours have passed, no member of the
Collegium has requested a delay, any member of the Collegium may
issue a responsum.

E. If, within the seventy-two (72) hours, any member of the Collegium
requests a delay, a discussion shall take place among those members
who wish to discuss the issue. Together they shall formulate a
responsum. Once that responsum has been agreed by a majority of those
members of the Collegium involved in the discussion, that responsum
shall be issued formally and collectively by all the members of the
Collegium involved in the discussion.

F. Responsa are interpretations of jus sacrum (sacred law) that
pre-exists the decision of a Collegium and are immanent. Therefore,
previous responsa issued by at least three members of a Collegium
shall not be contradicted by later responsa. However, it is possible
that a Collegium may occasionally make mistakes in its interpretation
of jus sacrum. If, as a result of further research, at least three
members of that Collegium consider that a previous responsum was
mistaken, the Collegium shall reconsider the responsum using the
same procedure stated in E. If they conclude that the previous
responsum was mistaken, they shall formulate a new responsum and it
shall be issued collectively by all the Pontifices involved in the
discussion. The Collegium shall perform expiation for its mistake,
and shall declare the appropriate expiation for any private individual
who has acted improperly on the basis of the mistaken responsum.

IV. De Libris

Each Collegium shall maintain a collection of previously delivered
responsa to consultations on religious issues. All the information
contained in those books shall be readily available to the public
through the Nova Roma web site.

V. De Insignia

The members of each Collegium shall be entitled to wear, during the
celebration of sacra publica, the insignia that mark them as members
of each one of the Quattuor Summa Collegia. These insignia shall be:

1. For the Collegium Pontificum: the tunica praetexta.

2. For the Collegium Augurum: the toga trabea, the capis and
the lituus.

3. For the Collegium Septemvirorum Epulonum: the toga
praetexta and the patera.

---------------
---------------

LEX/SENATVSCONSVLTVM/DECRETVM DE COLLEGIO PONTIFICVM

PARS PRIMA
DE COLLEGIO PONTIFICO

I. De Membris Collegii

The Collegium Pontificum shall be formed by eight (8) Pontifices and
one (1) Pontifex Maximus; these shall be the members of the Collegium
Pontificum as far as the issuing of responsa and the cooption of new
Pontifices is concerned. However, the following sacerdotes shall also
be associated to the Collegium Pontificum, shall be privy to its
discussions and be allowed to express their opinion during them,
and shall take part in those rituals in which the Collegium Pontificum
as a whole is involved:

1. The Rex Sacrorum
2. The Flamen Dialis
3. The Flamen Martialis
4. The Flamen Quirinalis

II. De Fastis

A. Upon request from the consules, the Collegium Pontificum
shall issue a decretum defining the official fasti (calendar)
of Nova Roma. Said fasti shall be based on available historical
evidence. If, as a result of further research, at least three
pontifices consider that different fasti must be issued, the
Collegium shall reconsider the responsum that defines the fasti
using the same procedure stated in paragraph III of the [LEX/
SENATVSCONSVLTVM/DECRETVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS].

B. The fasti shall specify the feriae to be observed by Nova Roma,
except for the movable feriae, which shall be announced by the
Pontifex Maximus on the kalends of January (kalendas Januarias).

III. De Libris Pontificiis

A. The Collegium Pontificum shall issue and maintain the books
containing the ritual ordinances. These shall receive the name of
Libri Pontificii or Libri Pontificales. The regulations which serve
as a guide to the Pontifices in their deliberations (Jus Pontificium)
shall form part of the Libri Pontificii.

B. The Collegium Pontificum shall issue and maintain the books that
contain the names of the Gods as well as the manner in which these
names are to be used in public worship. These shall receive the name
of Indigitamenta.

C. The Collegium Pontificum shall maintain a record of the official
actions taken by the Collegium and the Pontifex Maximus. These shall
receive the name of Acta Pontificum.

D. The Collegium Pontificum shall maintain a collection of previously
delivered responsa to consultations on religious issues. These shall
receive the name of Commentarii Pontificum.

E. All the information cited in A, B, C & D shall be readily available
to the public through the Nova Roma web site.

IV. De Feriis

A. The members of the Collegium Pontificum shall take care of all the
public religious ceremonies (sacra publica) indicated in the fasti
or declared as a moveable feria that have not explicitly been
assigned to a specific priesthood or magistracy, or whenever such
priesthood or magistracy is vacant.

B. The members of the Collegium Pontificum shall decide among
themselves how their workload shall be divided, and shall issue a
decretum detailing which person shall be considered responsible for
each set of sacra.

PARS SECVNDA
DE REGE REGINAQVE SACRORVM

V. De captione Regis Reginaeque Sacrorum

The Pontifex Maximus may, through a public announcement, appoint
any citizen to the position of Rex Sacrorum as long as said citizen
meets the following conditions:

1. The Rex Sacrorum shall be a patrician citizen.

2. The Rex Sacrorum shall not be a magistrate or senator
of Nova Roma. If he is a magistrate or a senator in the moment of
his appointment as Rex Sacrorum, he shall resign his magistracy or
his membership of the Senate before he is eligible to be inaugurated
as Rex Sacrorum.

3. The Rex Sacrorum shall be married through confarreatio. His wife
shall automatically receive the title of Regina Sacrorum, and the
rights and duties associated with that title.

After being appointed by the Pontifex Maximus, the Rex and Regina
Sacrorum shall be properly inaugurated following the prescriptions of
the Libri Pontificii.

VI. De officiis Regis Reginaeque Sacrorum

A. The Rex Sacrorum shall have the following duties:

1. To perform the rituals for Janus and Jupiter prescribed by the
Libri Pontificii, described in III.A., on the kalendae and nonae of
each month, and to announce on the kalendae of each month the day on
which the nonae of that month shall take place.

2. To preside the Comitia Calata in the nonae of each month and to
announce the festivals to be held in that month.

3. To try to propitiate, upon the request of the Senatus and following
the prescriptions of the Libri Pontificii, the anger of the Gods when
extraordinary portenta may seem to announce some general calamity.

4. To take part in the traditional festivities associated with the
office:

a) The Agonium
b) The Consualia
c) The Regifugium
d) The dies Q.R.C.F. in Martius
e) The dies Q.R.C.F. in Majus.
f) as well as in any additional sacra publica
explicitly prescribed for the Rex Sacrorum by the Libri
Pontificii.

B. The Regina Sacrorum shall have the following duties:

1. To perform the rituals for Juno prescribed by the Libri Pontificii
in the kalendae and the nonae of each month, as well as in the
festival of Juno Covella.

2. To perform those other rituals specifically prescribed for the
Regina Sacrorum by the Libri Pontificii.

PARS TERTIA
DE PONTIFICE MAXIMO

VII. De electione Pontificis Maximi

A. Whenever the position of the Pontifex Maximus is vacant, two
current members of the Collegium Pontificum shall be selected by all
the members and, between them, the two selected members shall draw up
a shortlist of two candidates among the current pontifices, excluding
the most recently co-opted pontifex.

B. The most recently co-opted pontifex shall temporarily borrow
imperium to convene the Comitia Populi Tributa. The pontifex that
presides over the election shall not be eligible as Pontifex Maximus.

C. One half (rounding fractions down) of the tribes of the Comitia
Populi Tributa shall be selected by lot and shall be thereby
convened to elect a new Pontifex Maximus among the two candidates
shortlisted by the pontifices, following the same procedures followed
to elect magistrates through the Comitia Populi Tributa.

D. Once a Pontifex Maximus has been elected, he shall be properly
inaugurated following the prescriptions of the Libri Pontificii.

E. The Pontifex Maximus shall hold his office for life. However,
he may be deprived of his office for not fulfilling the duties of
the office through a vote in the Comitia Populi Tributa.

VIII. De officiis Pontificis Maximi

The Pontifex Maximus shall have the following duties:

1. To act as a spokesman of the Collegium Pontificum.

2. To be responsible for the public hearth in the Aedes Vestae. To
instruct and supervise the Virgines Vestales.

3. To select and to preside over the induction rituals of the Virgines
Vestales, the Rex Sacrorum, the Flamines Majores and the Flamines
Minores.

4. To oversee the celebration of the sacra publica, and to have
disciplinary authority over the priests responsible for their
celebration, according to the Libri Pontificii. Disciplinary measures
may include fines and/or expulsion from priesthood.

5. To record the significant events of each year in the Annales
Maximi, and to present the Annales Maximi of the previous year to the
public before the kalendae Martias.

6. To be present in every marriage by confarreatio, and to take part
in the ritus prescribed for such occasions by the Libri Pontificii.

7. To watch over sacra familiares and the rituals of the dead
practiced by the citizens of the Res Publica, including the specific
duty of approving or rejecting applications for adrogatio.

PARS QVARTA
DE FLAMINIBVS

IX. De numero captioneque Flaminum

A. The Pontifex Maximus shall appoint three (3) Flamines Majores, that
shall be named, in order of precedence:

1. Flamen Dialis
2. Flamen Martialis
3. Flamen Quirinalis

The Flamines Majores shall be members of the Ordo Patricius, son of
parents married by confarreatio, and be married by confarreatio.
The last two conditions might be waived through a special dispense
through a responsum from the Collegium Pontificum.

B. The Pontifex Maximus shall appoint, among the members of the Ordo
Plebejus, twelve (12) Flamines Minores, that shall be named:

1. Flamen Carmentalis
2. Flamen Cerealis
3. Flamen Falacer
4. Flamen Floralis
5. Flamen Furrinalis
6. Flamen Lucularis
7. Flamen Palatualis
8. Flamen Pomonalis
9. Flamen Portunalis
10. Flamen Virbialis
11. Flamen Volcanalis
12. Flamen Volturnalis

C. After being appointed by the Pontifex Maximus, a new Flamen shall
be properly inaugurated following the prescriptions of the Libri
Pontificii.

D. The office of Flamen is understood to last for life; but a flamen
may be compelled to resign (flaminio abire) for a breach of duty,
or even on account of the occurrence of an ill-omened accident while
discharging his functions. The final decision on whether a certain
Flamen must resign shall be in the hands of the Pontifex Maximus.

X. De officiis Flaminis Dialis

A. The Flamen Dialis shall have the following duties:

1. To wear, during official acts, the insignia of his office: toga
praetexta and apex. He shall also have the right to sit on a sella
curulis, be escorted by one lictor and take part in the deliberations
of the Senate.

2. To preside, together with the Flaminica Dialis (the wife of the
Flamen Dialis, to whom he must be married by confarreatio), over the
rites of confarreatio.

3. To follow the traditional prohibitions of his office, as
prescribed by the Libri Pontificii.

4. To leave office if his wife dies or if he divorces.

5. To take part in the traditional festivities associated with the
office:

a) the Lupercalia
b) the Vinalia
c) the Fidei Solemne
d) the Ovis Idulis

as well as in any additional sacra publica explicitly prescribed
by the Libri Pontificii.

6. On each nundina a sacrifice to Jupiter shall be performed by the
Flaminica Dialis according to the prescriptions of the Libri
Pontificii. The Flaminica Dialis shall also take part in the following
traditional festivities:

a) the Itur ad Argeos
b) the Ancilia Moventia
c) the Februa Poscens

She shall be subject to some special taboos (defined in the Libri
Pontificii) during June until the end of the Vestalia.

B. Should the office of the Flamen Dialis be vacant, the duties of
the office shall be discharged by the Pontifex Maximus.

XI. De officiis Flaminis Martialis

The Flamen Martialis shall have the following duties:

1. To wear, during official acts, the insignia of his office: toga
praetexta and apex.

2. To take part in the traditional festivities associated with the
office:

a) the Octobris Equus
b) the Fidei Solemne

as well as in any additional sacra publica explicitly prescribed
by the Libri Pontificii.

3. The Flamen Martialis must be married by confarreatio, and his wife
shall receive the title of Flaminica Martialis, and shall perform the
duties explicitly prescribed for that position in the Libri
Pontificii.

XII. De officiis Flaminis Quirinalis

The Flamen Quirinalis shall have the following duties:

1. To wear, during official acts, the insignia of his office: toga
praetexta and apex.

2. To take part in the traditional festivities associated with the
office:

a) the Robigalia
b) the Consualia
c) the Latentalia
b) the Fidei Solemne

as well as in any additional sacra publica explicitly prescribed
by the Libri Pontificii.

3. The Flamen Quirinalis must be married by confarreatio, and his wife
shall receive the title of Flaminica Quirinalis, and shall perform the
duties explicitly prescribed for that position in the Libri
Pontificii.

XIII. De officiis Flaminum Minorum

The Flamines Minores shall have the following duties:

1. To wear, during official acts, the insignia of his office: toga
praetexta and apex.

2. To take part in the traditional festivities associated with the
office, as well as in any additional sacra publica explicitly prescribed
by the Libri Pontificii.

------------------------------------------------------------

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43924 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: a.d. XI Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XI Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"Tonight the stars of Erigone's dog set: the origin
Of the constellation's explained elsewhere." - Ovid, Fasti V

Almost nothing is known of Erigone save for the details found in one
fable. It is said that Icarius was a poverty-ridden farmer of great
piety and justice who once entertained the God Dionyos. Upon the
arrival of the God, who came incognito, Icarius treated him with the
greatest hospitality that a man in his position could muster. Perhaps
in order to reward the humble farmer, Dionysus introduced him to
wine...something never before known to humankind...and Erigone was
encouraged to pour cup after cup of the potent liquid for her father
to drink. It is possible that Dionysus seduced Erigone while her
father indulged in the marvelous beverage or he may have hidden in a
bowl of grapes, thus tricking the girl. Some sources state that she
later gave birth to a child...Staphylus, whose name means "a bunch of
grapes." Regardless, it seems apparent that the God then instructed
Icarius to spread the gift of wine to the rest of the human race.
Obeying the command, the farmer set off in his cart to carry out
Dionysus' orders. One night, while drinking with some shepherds, a few
of them fell into a very deep sleep and the remainder of the drunken
herdsmen, fearing that Icarius was up to something horrible...possibly
poisoning them so he could steal their flocks...surrounded the farmer.
One picked up a sickle, another an axe, yet another a shovel, and the
fourth hefted a large stone. They struck Icarius with their weapons
and to finish their heinous act, impaled him with a spit taken from
the cooking pit.

Erigone wandered the Earth in search of her father, accompanied on her
journey by Maera, Icarius' dog. One day, the hound led Erigone to a
well beneath a tree, where the shepherds had thrown her father's body.
The faithful daughter buried Icarius and then climbed the tree, a vast
cosmic tree which spread over the entire Earth, and hanged herself.
Maera refused to leave the area, remaing to stand watch over the two
bodies until he eventually starved to death (although some versions
claimed that he drowned). However, prior to committing suicide,
Erigone had prayed that the daughters of the Athenians should be
afflicted with the same death that she was about to suffer until such
time as the murderers of Icarius were found and punished. The guilty
shepherds had fled to the Island of Ceos during the Dog Days when
Sirius was in the ascendant. The Island experienced a devastating heat
wave during which everything growing in the Earth burned up and died.
Thus, Apollo went to the ruler of Ceos and told him that the shepherds
must be punished. Once they were executed, the cool breeze that makes
life bearable in the Summer reappeared, as it does every year, during
the Dog Days.

According to some sources, Maera was placed into the heavens as one of
the dogs of Canes Venatici (likely the Lesser Dog Star), and it has
been suggested that Icarius is associated with Bootes, The Herdsman, a
constellation not far from Virgo and close to the Dog. Since Erigone
hanged herself when the fruits and grains of Summer were ripening for
the harvest, Virgo has forever symbolized the ripeness of womanhood
which has not yet surrendered itself.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Hyginus, Wikipedia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43925 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
C. Equitius Cato Danni Lee sal.

Salve Danni.

I'd suggest an excellent overview called "The First Century: Emperors,
Gods, and Everyman" by William Klingaman.

Vale bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jenna Leonard
<morriganstormymoney@...> wrote:
>
> Along those lines, I have been wondering how stabile Palestine was
in the 1st century. Were Romans garrisoned in every village and
hamlet, or just in the captial cities? I understand that watch-towers
were discovered in Jesus's home village, which leads to the question
of how unsettled social conditions were if the locals needed to have
their own militia in addition to whatever Roman garrisons were around?
Was Judea a sort of "Mad Max" world back then?
>
> Danni Lee
>
> "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I couldn't resist watching a few minutes of Ben Hur last night on PBS,
> especially the chariot race.It then made me wonder; did the Roman
> authorities and population in Judea have actual gladiatorial combats,
> fights with animals to the death, feed criminals to wild beasts etc or
> were they sensitive enough to the Jewish commandments ie, thou shalt
> not kill and just stick to athletics and chariot races. I have never
> come across any articles adressing this.
>
> Thanks!
>
> QSP
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Ancient history Citizenship test Nova Us citizenship
test Citizenship test questions
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43926 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome
Savete QFM,Cato, F Galeriius Aurelius,

Thank you all for your input to my question!

Regards,

QSP




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/21/2006 8:37:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mjk@... writes:
> couldn't resist watching a few minutes of Ben Hur last night on
PBS,
> especially the chariot race.It then made me wonder; did the Roman
> authorities and population in Judea have actual gladiatorial
combats,
> No, not really. There was a small amphitheatre in Caesera, but
that was for
> the
> governor's private use, there wasn't enough seating for a major
show. In the
> actual
> novel had the race on Rome's track, the Flaminian Circus.
However, to
> collapse the action the scriptwriters moved it to Judea.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43927 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-22
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2465
---Salve Saturnine of Finnica et Salvete Omnes!
Yes, I heard that rumour about these victories at the hockey games.
Congratulations!
Good of you to remind me mi amice! I hope you and Minucius didn't
celebrate 'too' heavily.

Valete!

Pompeia of Canada (The country who lost the Bronze Medallion to the
athletes of Finnica :>) )





In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Curius Saturninus
<c.curius@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> > Way to go Lordi! Finnica rules!
>
> And today Thule teams got bronze (Finnica) and gold (Suecica) at
the
> ice-hockey world championships! :-) My good friend Gallus
Minucius
> Iovinus is probably enjoying about this too.
>
>
> > And I just looked at their pics, and..ahhh, they are so
pretty :>)
> > Actually, if I use my imagination one of them looks like a
member of
> > the vet bank KISS.. ...He looks like a Klingon too...neither of
> > which are bad in my view (I am a long-time Trekkie)
>
> Eye of the beholder and so on... :-)
>
> Vale,
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
>
> Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> "All we need is lightning
> With power and might
> Striking down the prophets of false
> As the moon is rising
> Give us the sign
> Now let us rise up in awe"
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
> gsm: +358-50-3315279
> fax: +358-9-8754751
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43928 From: Gaius Domitius Cato Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Salve Omnes,

Yes, how effective was the 'pax romana' in Roma Antigua and how
popular was it with local non-Roman populations?

I would imagine that the stablity and prosperity would overcome
nationalist sentiments in some places. Except when local culture
was offended by misrule, long subjectated populations are not likely
to rebel unless pushed to. The Britons stayed loyal to Rome till
the legions withdrew.

Having access to the imperial market and having good roads and
infrastructure would be a big draw for the commercial community and
the more far sighted farmers and producers.

Looking at the US (a modern empire with some of the characteristics
of Roma Antigua) would any state vote to succede in modern times?
In the civil war period interstate trade was a fraction of what it
was today, today any separtist sentiment is laughed at.
Interdependence binds the provinces to the centre. Sucession would
be suicide even for a large state like California - though it could
feed itself, it would have rolling blackouts in no time. Quebec -
lingustically and culturally distinct from British Canada could not
bring itself to sucede, they would go broke with out Canada.

Today's interstate highways are the direct decendents of the Roman
Roads... The legions won the empire but the roads kept it for so
long... The US has an extensive freeway network and no separtist
problem. Canada neglected to build a full freeway network and have
ongoing separtist problems...

Roma continues to teach lessions...

Vale Bene,
Gaius Domitius Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:
>
> C. Equitius Cato Danni Lee sal.
>
> Salve Danni.
>
> I'd suggest an excellent overview called "The First Century:
Emperors,
> Gods, and Everyman" by William Klingaman.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jenna Leonard
> <morriganstormymoney@> wrote:
> >
> > Along those lines, I have been wondering how stabile Palestine
was
> in the 1st century. Were Romans garrisoned in every village and
> hamlet, or just in the captial cities? I understand that watch-
towers
> were discovered in Jesus's home village, which leads to the
question
> of how unsettled social conditions were if the locals needed to
have
> their own militia in addition to whatever Roman garrisons were
around?
> Was Judea a sort of "Mad Max" world back then?
> >
> > Danni Lee
> >
> > "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > I couldn't resist watching a few minutes of Ben Hur last night
on PBS,
> > especially the chariot race.It then made me wonder; did the
Roman
> > authorities and population in Judea have actual gladiatorial
combats,
> > fights with animals to the death, feed criminals to wild beasts
etc or
> > were they sensitive enough to the Jewish commandments ie, thou
shalt
> > not kill and just stick to athletics and chariot races. I have
never
> > come across any articles adressing this.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > QSP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Ancient history Citizenship test Nova Us
citizenship
> test Citizenship test questions
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "Nova-Roma" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
> Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43929 From: Gaius Domitius Cato Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Obsolete Weapons
Salve Artoria,

I love my AK - I would likely be useless with a sword or bow and
arrow - but rotten marksman that I am, with my AK at close range,
you are going down if you mean me harm...

AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon for
the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home defense,
there would be a lot less criminality...

As much as I admire ancient weaponcraft not all new technology is
without merit. It levels the playing field.

Vale bene,
Gaius Dominius Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tita Artoria Marcella"
<icehunter@...> wrote:
>
> Salve et salvete,
>
> >But why would black powder muskets be obsolete?
>
> Gods, Maximus--why would they not be? I've had the opportunity to
shoot both a black powder rifle and a fully-automatic M-16. I know
which one I'd want with me in battle.
>
> Vale et valete,
> Artoria
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43930 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
On Tue, 23 May 2006, Gaius Domitius Cato wrote:

> Salve Omnes,
>
> Looking at the US (a modern empire with some of the characteristics
> of Roma Antigua) would any state vote to succede in modern times?

There have been babblings about the "Blue" states seceding, but I imagine
these were more raving than rational thought. At any rate, they were for
political purposes and took no account of trade or peacekeeping.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Curiosity thrilled the cat
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43931 From: Caius Curius Saturninus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Arco Argentarii in Rome, reliefs a problem
Salvete omnes,

Recently when writing an essay I came across to the reliefs of Arco
Argentarii in Rome. When comparing the pictures I had myself taken
from it and picture from the book by Hannestad, I noticed quite
interesting optical phenomenon. I probably got inspiration to this by
reading Hannestad's discussion about the reliefs of the arch of Titus
(which in fact makes it quite intriguing as surely those who read
Hannestad's book will notice!). In any case, what I noticed was that
the some aspects, of one of the reliefs, that are usually criticised
by art historians, in fact seem to become obsolete when viewing the
relief from different angle.

Not to bore out people and to be able to show the actual pictures, I
quickly put up a little webpage about the issue:
http://www.insulaumbra.com/arcoargentarii/

Please visit it if you are interested in the reliefs, classical
archaeology or happen to live in or are visiting in near future in
the city of Rome. I lack photograph that could solve the whole problem.

Valete,


Caius Curius Saturninus

Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

"All we need is lightning
With power and might
Striking down the prophets of false
As the moon is rising
Give us the sign
Now let us rise up in awe"

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43932 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
M. Hortensia Domino Catonis Artoriae spd;
ack, barbarians! Nothing is finer than a foil, well
perhaps a sabre. But there is no greater art than fencing; it
requires skill and strategy..oh for my handsome fencing master of
times past; what an inspiration he was.
valete
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> Salve Artoria,
>
> I love my AK - I would likely be useless with a sword or bow and
> arrow - but rotten marksman that I am, with my AK at close range,
> you are going down if you mean me harm...
>
> AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon
for
> the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home
defense,
> there would be a lot less criminality...
>
> As much as I admire ancient weaponcraft not all new technology is
> without merit. It levels the playing field.
>
> Vale bene,
> Gaius Dominius Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tita Artoria Marcella"
> <icehunter@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve et salvete,
> >
> > >But why would black powder muskets be obsolete?
> >
> > Gods, Maximus--why would they not be? I've had the opportunity
to
> shoot both a black powder rifle and a fully-automatic M-16. I
know
> which one I'd want with me in battle.
> >
> > Vale et valete,
> > Artoria
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43933 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Sort of level. Or a whole new level of unlevel. For example if I am
unarmed I would rather face a man with a sword than with an AK. In this
sense the AK makes the field less level. It is harder to run from an AK
than it is a sword. I think I read once that Nobel thought dynamite would
level the playing field. Since most people don't have dynamite or AK's I
would say both increase the level of inequality.

That having been said. I fully support you having an AK (assuming you are
law abiding.) A criminal doesn't know if I am like you and own an AK, or if
I am like me and don't. Therefor he is less likely to rob me because I
might be you with an AK.

This may not make a lot of sense, but it is after midnight for me, so I get
a pass.

Remember, gun control is hitting your target.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/22/06, Gaius Domitius Cato <dcwnewyork2002@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Artoria,
>
> I love my AK - I would likely be useless with a sword or bow and
> arrow - but rotten marksman that I am, with my AK at close range,
> you are going down if you mean me harm...
>
> AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon for
> the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home defense,
> there would be a lot less criminality...
>
> As much as I admire ancient weaponcraft not all new technology is
> without merit. It levels the playing field.
>
> Vale bene,
> Gaius Dominius Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tita Artoria Marcella"
> <icehunter@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve et salvete,
> >
> > >But why would black powder muskets be obsolete?
> >
> > Gods, Maximus--why would they not be? I've had the opportunity to
> shoot both a black powder rifle and a fully-automatic M-16. I know
> which one I'd want with me in battle.
> >
> > Vale et valete,
> > Artoria
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43934 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: a.d. X Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem X Kalendas Iunius; haec dies nefastus publicus est.

"The next dawn belongs to Vulcan: they call it
Tubilustria: when trumpets he makes are purified." - Ovid, Fasti V

"Sing, clear-voiced Mousa, of Hephaistos Klytometis (famed for
inventions). With bright-eyed Athene he taught men glorious crafts
throughout the world, - men who before used to dwell caves in the
mountains like wild beasts. But now that they have learned crafts
through Hephaistos Klytotekhnes (the famed worker), easily they live a
peaceful life in their own houses the whole year round. Be gracious,
Hephaistos, and grant me success and prosperity!" - Homer, Hymn 20 to
Hephaestus

"Strong, mighty Hephaistos, bearing splendid light, unwearied fire,
with flaming torrents bright: strong-handed, deathless, and of art
divine, pure element, a portion of the world is thine: all-taming
artist, all-diffusive power, `tis thine, supreme, all substance to
devour: aither, sun, moon, and stars, light pure and clear, for these
thy lucid parts to men appear. To thee all dwellings, cities, tribes
belong, diffused through mortal bodies, rich and strong." - Orphic
Hymn 66 to Hephaestus

"The appointed hour was approaching when man in his turn was to go
forth into the light of day; and Prometheus, not knowing how he could
devise his salvation, stole the mechanical arts of Hephaistos and
Athene, and fire with them (they could neither have been acquired nor
used without fire), and gave them to man ... he entered by stealth
into the common workshop of Athene and Hephaistos, in which they used
to practise their favourite arts, and carried off Hephaistos' art of
working by fire, and also the art of Athene, and gave them to man. And
in this way man was supplied with the means of life." - Plato,
Protagoras 320C - 322A

"There are also several Volcanos'; the first, the son of Caelus, was
reputedly the father by Minerva of the Apollo said by the ancient
historians to be the tutelary deity of Athens; the second, the son of
the Nile, is named by the Egyptians Phthas, and is deemed the guardian
of Egypt; the third is the son of the third Jupiter and of Juno, and
is fabled to have been the master of a smithy at Lemnos; the fourth
[the Italian god Adranus or Vulcanus] is the son of Memalius, and lord
of the islands near Sicily which used to be named the Isles of
Volcanus." - Cicero, De Natura Deorum 3.22

"[Hephaistos] went to his bellows. He turned these toward the fire and
gave them their orders for working. And the bellows, all twenty of
them, blew on the crucibles, from all directions blasting forth wind
to blow the flames high now as he hurried to be at this place and now
at another, wherever Hephaistos might wish them to blow, and the work
went forward. He cast on the fire bronze which is weariless, and tin
with it and valuable gold, and silver, and thereafter set forth upon
its standard the great anvil, and gripped in one hand the ponderous
hammer, while in the other he grasped the pincers." - Homer, Iliad
18.136-138

Today is the celebration of the Tubilustrium in honor of Vulcanus, the
god of fire and blacksmithing. At birth Vulcanus was cast from heaven
by his mother Iuno, disgusted that she had borne a deformed son. He
was rescued by Thetis and Eurynome and founded a forge on the banks of
the River Okeanos. Vulcanus (in exile from heaven) sent gifts to the
gods of heaven. Iuno received a fabulous throne, which trapped the
goddess firmly when she sat upon it, and Venus' hand in marriage was
offered to the god who could free her. Bacchus persuaded Vulcanus to
claim the prize, and the pair ascended to heaven. Vulcanus discovered
the adulterous affair of his wife Venus with Mars, and forged an
invisible net and trapped the pair in his own bed for all the gods to
see. In response, Iuppiter offered Minerva as a (replacement) bride
--- without first telling Minerva. She was not pleased. When he
attempted to take her by force, Minerva fought him off. In the tussle
the god spilled his seed upon the earth, which birthed the child
Erikhthonios, the first King of Athens.

The month of March was the traditional start of the campaign season,
and the Tubilustrii were ceremonies to make the army fit for war. They
were held on March 23, the last day of the Greater Quinquatrus
(festival of Mars), and again on May 23. The sacred trumpets (tubae)
were originally war trumpets, but later they were used for ceremonial
occasions. It is not clear if the army was involved, or if it was
merely a ceremony to purify the trumpets used in summoning the
assembly on the following day. The ceremony was held in Rome in a
building called the Hall of the Shoemakers (atrium sutorium) and
involved the sacrifice of a ewe lamb. Romans who did not attend the
ceremony would be reminded of the occasion by seeing the Salii dancing
through the streets of the city.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Homer, Plato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43935 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Eurovision song contest win to Thule!
SALVETE !

Congratulations. Sure is an unexpected result. I must recognize that
Thule has the greatest contribution to the rock development. From
Nightwish, Arcana, Mortiis to Satirycon and Dimmu Borgir, to
enumerate only a few.

The rock fans ( even if is heavy, hard, gothic or black ) had a
major implication in the votes granting.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS
Gothic fan.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Curius Saturninus
<c.curius@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Last night for the first time in 40 years Regio Finnica won the
> Eurovision song contest and with all time highest score of
points!
> All Thule area countries gave full points to Finnish band Lordi,
so
> in a sense it is a Thule Province that wins, since the popularity
of
> the band is so wide here.
>
> And nevermind what could be said about the prettyness or lack of
it
> of the band members ;-) there is something in the lyrics that
should
> be noted by us northern Romans too: "Now let us rise up in awe"!
So
> Romans living in Thule, be proud, keep the faith and never give up!
>
> More info, pictures and videos:
> http://www.eurovision.tv/english/index.htm
>
> Valete,
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
>
> Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> "All we need is lightning
> With power and might
> Striking down the prophets of false
> As the moon is rising
> Give us the sign
> Now let us rise up in awe"
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
> gsm: +358-50-3315279
> fax: +358-9-8754751
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43936 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
In a message dated 5/22/2006 9:01:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dcwnewyork2002@... writes:
AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon for
the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home defense,
there would be a lot less criminality...
My concern with a AK-47,73, AKM et al, is: it's an assault rifle. So after I
drop the perp
with a well aimed burst, the rounds that missed are still circulating around
the neighborhood.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43937 From: Caius Moravius Brutus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Salvete Domiti et Triari

You've piqued my curiosity now. What is a 'blue' state?

We don't exactly have separatist 'problems' within the UK but there are quite strong nationalist movements in Wales and Scotland. In both countries the Nationalists are the main opposition parties. The situation in Northern Ireland is well documented and ongoing. It's interesting to note with regards to the practicalities of secession that both the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists) are in favour of independence from the UK but wish to remain within the European Union, presumably for reasons of trade and infrastructure. The idea of completely going it alone is only really only on the agenda in England (where the EU is quite unpopular) which I suppose could be big enough in population terms to survive by itself.

With regards to the Pax Romana it has always been my belief that the old warrior cultures that dominated Britannia, Gaul and other areas within the Empire must have been immense fun if you were a warrior and a pain in the arse if you had worked all year to get the crops in only to have a warband come over the hill and steal the lot, probably together with your cattle and women as well. Human beings have always tended to prefer home-grown government - no matter how brutal or corrupt - and deeply resent being liberated by 'foreigners'. Certainly in our schools here a lot is made of Boudicca and the Romans are usually portrayed as aggressive invaders with no redeeming features. I suspect however that the average man in the field would have been much better off with the stability and order in which to work, trade and fluorish.

As has been mentioned both Britain and Gaul remained loyal to the Empire until they had no choice but to go it alone and the breakdown of the Pax Romana was a disaster for the Celtic peoples.

Valete

Caius Moravius Brutus

dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:

On Tue, 23 May 2006, Gaius Domitius Cato wrote:

> Salve Omnes,
>
> Looking at the US (a modern empire with some of the characteristics
> of Roma Antigua) would any state vote to succede in modern times?

There have been babblings about the "Blue" states seceding, but I imagine
these were more raving than rational thought. At any rate, they were for
political purposes and took no account of trade or peacekeeping.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Curiosity thrilled the cat


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43938 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
The same could be said of a single shot revolver. And most AK's are also
single shot even if they do have the evil cosmetic appearance of an assault
rifle.

--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/23/06, QFabiusMaxmi@... <QFabiusMaxmi@...> wrote:
>
> My concern with a AK-47,73, AKM et al, is: it's an assault rifle. So
> after I drop the perp with a well aimed burst, the rounds that missed are
> still circulating around the neighborhood.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43939 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Foils are nice to play with. I also used to fence. But when real killing
work needs doing, the gladius rules. Particularly in the tight confines of
a home environment. Furniture, walls, hallways, doorways, etc.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/23/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Domino Catonis Artoriae spd;
> ack, barbarians! Nothing is finer than a foil, well
> perhaps a sabre. But there is no greater art than fencing; it
> requires skill and strategy..oh for my handsome fencing master of
> times past; what an inspiration he was.
> valete
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>
>
> >
> > Salve Artoria,
> >
> > I love my AK - I would likely be useless with a sword or bow and
> > arrow - but rotten marksman that I am, with my AK at close range,
> > you are going down if you mean me harm...
> >
> > AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon
> for
> > the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home
> defense,
> > there would be a lot less criminality...
> >
> > As much as I admire ancient weaponcraft not all new technology is
> > without merit. It levels the playing field.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> > Gaius Dominius Cato
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tita Artoria Marcella"
> > <icehunter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve et salvete,
> > >
> > > >But why would black powder muskets be obsolete?
> > >
> > > Gods, Maximus--why would they not be? I've had the opportunity
> to
> > shoot both a black powder rifle and a fully-automatic M-16. I
> know
> > which one I'd want with me in battle.
> > >
> > > Vale et valete,
> > > Artoria
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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> ------------------------------
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--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43940 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
I've always wanted to learn how to use a Spatha myself...


Danni Lee

Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
M. Hortensia Domino Catonis Artoriae spd;
ack, barbarians! Nothing is finer than a foil, well
perhaps a sabre. But there is no greater art than fencing; it
requires skill and strategy..oh for my handsome fencing master of
times past; what an inspiration he was.
valete
Marca Hortensia Maior

>
> Salve Artoria,
>
> I love my AK - I would likely be useless with a sword or bow and
> arrow - but rotten marksman that I am, with my AK at close range,
> you are going down if you mean me harm...
>
> AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon
for
> the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home
defense,
> there would be a lot less criminality...
>
> As much as I admire ancient weaponcraft not all new technology is
> without merit. It levels the playing field.
>
> Vale bene,
> Gaius Dominius Cato
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tita Artoria Marcella"
> <icehunter@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve et salvete,
> >
> > >But why would black powder muskets be obsolete?
> >
> > Gods, Maximus--why would they not be? I've had the opportunity
to
> shoot both a black powder rifle and a fully-automatic M-16. I
know
> which one I'd want with me in battle.
> >
> > Vale et valete,
> > Artoria
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43941 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
On Tue, 23 May 2006, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/22/2006 9:01:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> dcwnewyork2002@... writes:
> AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the perfect weapon for
> the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one for home defense,
> there would be a lot less criminality...

> My concern with a AK-47,73, AKM et al, is: it's an assault rifle. So after I
> drop the perp
> with a well aimed burst, the rounds that missed are still circulating around
> the neighborhood.

All the best assault rifles can be set to fire single shot, three-round
burst (the preferred setting), or continuous, blast-until-you-release-the
-trigger mode.

Any round that misses will hit something else, just as a pilum aimed high
may miss the target in the first rank only to spear a target in the second
rank. (Hah! Bet you thought this exchange wasn't On Topic!)

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43942 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;

Let's see...

Projectile weapons with which I am familiar (that is, I've "fired") -
most everything in a very broad range from a thrown rock to a 105mm
howitzer. Well, a trebuchet I once crewed did hurl the heaviest
projectile. For hunting, I am partial to a longbow.

"Man-powered" weapons with which I am familiar: most everything in a
very broad range from a swung fist to a 2-handed sword (street fights,
boxing, military close quarters combat training, martial arts,
fencing, SCA style training and "live steel" training). My favorite
combination was always Norse fighting ax and Roman scutum, though I
did fence for 8 years in High School and College: foil, epee and
sabre.

Not one thing is obsolete. Everything has a time and place.

I would dare say that one soldier with a gladius in the right time at
the right place would be much more worth while than a full battery of
mobile artillery 2 hours late and 5 miles out of place.

In a defensive situation, I prefer a 12 bore shot gun or a .45 ACP
pistol to any edged weapon, though no room of my house is without
those, too. I have over 200 pokey-sticky-bashy things ,-)

As for black powder being obsolete <BEG> I have a load for my single
shot .45-70, which will knock a man down at 1000 yards. In my younger
days i participated in 1000 yd shooting matches and cooked up a load
that would shoot fairly flat.

And to bring up what might be a cogent question>>>

What were the Roman laws and/or views of self-defense and the common
citizen bearing some sort of arms to effect that?

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43943 From: Tita Artoria Marcella Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Salve Gai Domini,

>I love my AK - I would likely be useless with a sword or bow and
>arrow - but rotten marksman that I am, with my AK at close range,
>you are going down if you mean me harm...

Many years ago I owned a Chinese Type 56--an AK-47 clone. I loved it, and it was wonderfully accurate, but I sold it when California banned assault rifles. I don't believe in gun registration and I didn't want to be a felon. But I would never have thought to use it in self-defense--that's why I owned a Beretta 9mm and a shotgun.

Vale bene,
Artoria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43944 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Spatha? Pah! For sissy horsey boys. Real Romans march. ;-)
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/23/06, Jenna Leonard <morriganstormymoney@...> wrote:
>
> I've always wanted to learn how to use a Spatha myself...
>
>
> Danni Lee
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43945 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Not the legal ones.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.



On 5/23/06, dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
>
> All the best assault rifles can be set to fire single shot, three-round
> burst (the preferred setting), or continuous, blast-until-you-release-the
> -trigger mode.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43946 From: Jenna Leonard Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
Foe that matter, could the average Roman-or for that matter, Judean, peasant actually afford a dagger or a sword?

Danni Lee

S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;

Let's see...

Projectile weapons with which I am familiar (that is, I've "fired") -
most everything in a very broad range from a thrown rock to a 105mm
howitzer. Well, a trebuchet I once crewed did hurl the heaviest
projectile. For hunting, I am partial to a longbow.

"Man-powered" weapons with which I am familiar: most everything in a
very broad range from a swung fist to a 2-handed sword (street fights,
boxing, military close quarters combat training, martial arts,
fencing, SCA style training and "live steel" training). My favorite
combination was always Norse fighting ax and Roman scutum, though I
did fence for 8 years in High School and College: foil, epee and
sabre.

Not one thing is obsolete. Everything has a time and place.

I would dare say that one soldier with a gladius in the right time at
the right place would be much more worth while than a full battery of
mobile artillery 2 hours late and 5 miles out of place.

In a defensive situation, I prefer a 12 bore shot gun or a .45 ACP
pistol to any edged weapon, though no room of my house is without
those, too. I have over 200 pokey-sticky-bashy things ,-)

As for black powder being obsolete <BEG> I have a load for my single
shot .45-70, which will knock a man down at 1000 yards. In my younger
days i participated in 1000 yd shooting matches and cooked up a load
that would shoot fairly flat.

And to bring up what might be a cogent question>>>

What were the Roman laws and/or views of self-defense and the common
citizen bearing some sort of arms to effect that?

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.


SPONSORED LINKS
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43947 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Moravio Bruto quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Salvete Domiti et Triari
>
> You've piqued my curiosity now. What is a 'blue' state?
>
> ATS: Our television newscasters distinguish the states which voted for
> one party of the other by color: blue states for one party, red for the
> other. One is Democratic, the other Republican, though not being a political
> hack, I¹m not sure which is which, though associating blue with secession does
> point to blue being the democratic color. In our civil war, however, soldiers
> from the Northern states wore blue uniforms, and those from the South, gray
> ones, so it is not impossible that this refers to that division, just much
> more unlikely.
>
> Realistically, we don¹t seem to have much of a secession movement in the
> U.S., though there are some who might like to do so.
>
> ===
>
> We don't exactly have separatist 'problems' within the UK but there are
> quite strong nationalist movements in Wales and Scotland. In both countries
> the Nationalists are the main opposition parties. The situation in Northern
> Ireland is well documented and ongoing. It's interesting to note with regards
> to the practicalities of secession that both the Scottish National Party and
> Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists) are in favour of independence from the UK but
> wish to remain within the European Union, presumably for reasons of trade and
> infrastructure. The idea of completely going it alone is only really only on
> the agenda in England (where the EU is quite unpopular) which I suppose could
> be big enough in population terms to survive by itself.
>
> With regards to the Pax Romana it has always been my belief that the old
> warrior cultures that dominated Britannia, Gaul and other areas within the
> Empire must have been immense fun if you were a warrior and a pain in the arse
> if you had worked all year to get the crops in only to have a warband come
> over the hill and steal the lot, probably together with your cattle and women
> as well. Human beings have always tended to prefer home-grown government - no
> matter how brutal or corrupt - and deeply resent being liberated by
> 'foreigners'. Certainly in our schools here a lot is made of Boudicca and the
> Romans are usually portrayed as aggressive invaders with no redeeming
> features. I suspect however that the average man in the field would have been
> much better off with the stability and order in which to work, trade and
> fluorish.
>
> As has been mentioned both Britain and Gaul remained loyal to the Empire
> until they had no choice but to go it alone and the breakdown of the Pax
> Romana was a disaster for the Celtic peoples.
>
> Valete
>
> Caius Moravius Brutus
>
> dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 May 2006, Gaius Domitius Cato wrote:
>
>> > Salve Omnes,
>> >
>> > Looking at the US (a modern empire with some of the characteristics
>> > of Roma Antigua) would any state vote to succede in modern times?
>
> There have been babblings about the "Blue" states seceding, but I imagine
> these were more raving than rational thought. At any rate, they were for
> political purposes and took no account of trade or peacekeeping.
>
> -- Publius Livius Triarius
> Curiosity thrilled the cat
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> CAIUS MORAVIUS BRUTUS
>
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43948 From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Blue is Democratic, red is Republican (I think it is backwards to the party colours in Canada - red for the Liberals, blue for the Tories; also orange for the New Democrats and a light blue for the Bloc Quebcois.

As for the seccession of the blue states, there is a map on some blogs that shows the blue states and Canada together as 'The United States of Canada" and the remaining red states as 'Jesusland'.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa

"A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Moravio Bruto quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Salvete Domiti et Triari
>
> You've piqued my curiosity now. What is a 'blue' state?
>
> ATS: Our television newscasters distinguish the states which voted for
> one party of the other by color: blue states for one party, red for the
> other. One is Democratic, the other Republican, though not being a political
> hack, I¹m not sure which is which, though associating blue with secession does
> point to blue being the democratic color. In our civil war, however, soldiers
> from the Northern states wore blue uniforms, and those from the South, gray
> ones, so it is not impossible that this refers to that division, just much
> more unlikely.
>
> Realistically, we don¹t seem to have much of a secession movement in the
> U.S., though there are some who might like to do so.
>
> ===
>
> We don't exactly have separatist 'problems' within the UK but there are
> quite strong nationalist movements in Wales and Scotland. In both countries
> the Nationalists are the main opposition parties. The situation in Northern
> Ireland is well documented and ongoing. It's interesting to note with regards
> to the practicalities of secession that both the Scottish National Party and
> Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists) are in favour of independence from the UK but
> wish to remain within the European Union, presumably for reasons of trade and
> infrastructure. The idea of completely going it alone is only really only on
> the agenda in England (where the EU is quite unpopular) which I suppose could
> be big enough in population terms to survive by itself.
>
> With regards to the Pax Romana it has always been my belief that the old
> warrior cultures that dominated Britannia, Gaul and other areas within the
> Empire must have been immense fun if you were a warrior and a pain in the arse
> if you had worked all year to get the crops in only to have a warband come
> over the hill and steal the lot, probably together with your cattle and women
> as well. Human beings have always tended to prefer home-grown government - no
> matter how brutal or corrupt - and deeply resent being liberated by
> 'foreigners'. Certainly in our schools here a lot is made of Boudicca and the
> Romans are usually portrayed as aggressive invaders with no redeeming
> features. I suspect however that the average man in the field would have been
> much better off with the stability and order in which to work, trade and
> fluorish.
>
> As has been mentioned both Britain and Gaul remained loyal to the Empire
> until they had no choice but to go it alone and the breakdown of the Pax
> Romana was a disaster for the Celtic peoples.
>
> Valete
>
> Caius Moravius Brutus
>
> dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 May 2006, Gaius Domitius Cato wrote:
>
>> > Salve Omnes,
>> >
>> > Looking at the US (a modern empire with some of the characteristics
>> > of Roma Antigua) would any state vote to succede in modern times?
>
> There have been babblings about the "Blue" states seceding, but I imagine
> these were more raving than rational thought. At any rate, they were for
> political purposes and took no account of trade or peacekeeping.
>
> -- Publius Livius Triarius
> Curiosity thrilled the cat
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> CAIUS MORAVIUS BRUTUS
>
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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---------------------------------





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43949 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Avete,

Being a Red voter in a Blue state, color me Purple ,-)

=========================================
In felicitas - Venii
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43950 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Roma Antiqua - Self Defens: was Re: Obsolete Weapons
Ave;

On 5/23/06, Jenna Leonard <morriganstormymoney@...> wrote:
> Foe that matter, could the average Roman-or for that matter, Judean, peasant actually afford a dagger or a sword?
>
> Danni Lee

Venii: I would venture the guess that most armed themselves with
clubs, farm implements or larger kitchen cutlery, like most commoners
have throughout the millenia.

>
> S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
> Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;
>
> [excision]
>
> And to bring up what might be a cogent question>>>
>
> What were the Roman laws and/or views of self-defense and the common
> citizen bearing some sort of arms to effect that?
>

Which still leaves the question, because I believe that a hallmark of
a healthy society is the recognition that self-defense is an
individual right and responsibilty. The agents of the State can not
be everywhere, all the time, keeping one safe.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43951 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
In a message dated 5/23/2006 12:15:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
marsvigilia@... writes:
But when real killing
work needs doing, the gladius rules. Particularly in the tight confines of
a home environment. Furniture, walls, hallways, doorways, etc.

I have two Gladius Hispanicus, one at the back entrance and one at front of
my home.
I have only needed to pull one once. The knife wielder dropped it and ran
away.

Q. Fabius Maximus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43952 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
I bet. All hail the hero Fabius.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 5/23/06, QFabiusMaxmi@... <QFabiusMaxmi@...> wrote:
>
> I have two Gladius Hispanicus, one at the back entrance and one at front
> of
> my home.
> I have only needed to pull one once. The knife wielder dropped it and ran
>
> away.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43953 From: Charlie Collins Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Re: New coins!
Salve,

I got my coins yesterday. They look fantastic. Congratulations to all who
took part in getting them made!

Vale,
Quintus Servilius Priscus


On 5/19/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia quiritibus spd;
> I got mine today and my proof coin. They are gorgeous and the
> workmanship is first class. I was a silent member of the coin group,
> but it's been one of the best things I've ever been part of. All the
> active members are great, great cives. This is Nova Roma at its
> best ! More coins more real life activities.
> M. Hortensia Maior
> producer Vox Romana
> member-Coin Group
> Aedilis Plebis
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > My coins arrived today and they are beautiful! Thank you to all
> who were involved their creation.
> >
> > Valete bene,
> > Artoria
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43954 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: CONVENING OF THE SENATE FOR MAY 24, 2006 (2759)
CONVENING OF THE SENATE – May 24, 2006 (2759)

The Senate is called to order May 24, 2006 (2759) by
Consul Pompeia Minucia Strabo.

The auspices having been taken by Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Augur,
Pontifex et Consul, the Senate is hereby called into session to
consider the following matters.

Procedures and schedule is as per existing Senate protocol
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2003-11-11-i.html

The Contio shall commence May 24 2000 hrs Roman time and shall end
May 28 2000 Roman time. Voting shall commence from this point and
shall conclude May 31 2000 hours Roman time. 2759AVC

The Senate is asked to consider and vote on the following matters:

ITEM I:

Gubernatorial Candidates

i. Candidates for Mediatlantica Propraetorship. There are two
candidates asking for appointment:


Tiberius Galerius Paulinus Senator et Praetor is to be appointed
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=3443

Gaius Equitius Cato Curule Aedile is to be appointed Propraetor M
ediatlantica

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=7186


ii Candidate for America Austroccidentalis Propraetorship


Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Flamen Cerealis is to be appointed
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
Http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=2994


iii Candidate for California Proconsulship


Quintus Fabius Maximus Senator

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=10
Note: The application was received late, but I shall waive this
issue and present the request for appointment during this current
senate session, rather than defer it to the next session. There are
no other candidates for this governorship, nor is this a scenerio of
gubernatorial prorogation; so this waiver in itself will not be
disadvantaging others, from my perspective.


ITEM II:

Propraetrix et Senatrix Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia has requested
that she receive payment for 50% of her province's tax remittance
from 2005 and 2006, less transfer costs, based on accounts
receivable spreadsheets, managed by Quaestors. This shall be
granted as per prevailing law and payment forwarded to her by
Patricia Cassia on behalf of this august body. The figures and
letter of explanation of the Propraetrix shall be forwarded in a
separate post.


ITEM III:


Propraetor et Senator Caius Curius Saturninus requests that the 5%
from his calendar sales payable to Nova Roma be applied to the Magna
Mater Fund. These calendars were approved of the Senate in January
of this year and are advertised on www.novaroma.org This financial
reconcilliation will be made prior to the final budget presentation
on or about Dec. 15, 2959 A.U.C. The Calendars are priced at 10
Euros each.


End of voting items



Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

Tribunis Plebis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43955 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-23
Subject: Roma Antiqua - Self Defens: was Re: Obsolete Weapons
---Salve Veni et Salvete Omnes:

Speaking of improvising with weapons, I have to tell you a rather
comical story from the past. I was writing the scripts for some
venatones for the Ludi Apollonares back in 2002. I wanted to cook
up some beast wars that would really smoke! Yeah. <eyerolling> One
of the tall tales included the finale of a huge gladiator claiming
victory over this massive, aggressive beast with a Roman sword,
which is in another term a gladius, right? ( I know this now)... I
was trying to keep my terminology of the weapons as authentic as
possible, but admittedly, Latin was a very new animal to me....no
pun intended.

So new to me 'that'.....

Shortly after this scenerio appeared on the ML with the rest of the
day's Ludi events, one of my gens mates, a Military reenactor to
boot, wrote me privately and said "Po, little sister, I hate to tell
you this, but the proper Latin term for the weapon in question is
a "gladius" and not a "scabbard"... :>)

Well, I guess the beast, whether I had intended or not,
was 'clubbed' to the finish, maybe with the gladius inside it?
Whatever :>) Maybe subconsciously I thought the gladius was being
overrated? ... Or I felt the beast wasn't so bad after all? :>) At
any rate...it made for a few good laughs on the gens list and at
Fort Malden that year!



Valete
Pompeia



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus"
<wend1066@...> wrote:
>
> Ave;
>
> On 5/23/06, Jenna Leonard <morriganstormymoney@...> wrote:
> > Foe that matter, could the average Roman-or for that matter,
Judean, peasant actually afford a dagger or a sword?
> >
> > Danni Lee
>
> Venii: I would venture the guess that most armed themselves with
> clubs, farm implements or larger kitchen cutlery, like most
commoners
> have throughout the millenia.
>
> >
> > S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
> > Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;
> >
> > [excision]
> >
> > And to bring up what might be a cogent question>>>
> >
> > What were the Roman laws and/or views of self-defense and the
common
> > citizen bearing some sort of arms to effect that?
> >
>
> Which still leaves the question, because I believe that a hallmark
of
> a healthy society is the recognition that self-defense is an
> individual right and responsibilty. The agents of the State can
not
> be everywhere, all the time, keeping one safe.
>
> =========================================
> In amicitia quod fides -
> Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
> Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor
>
> Religio Septentrionalis - Poet
>
> Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/
>
> http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
> http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
> http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
> --
> May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
> May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
> May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43956 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
On Tue, 23 May 2006, Caius Moravius Brutus wrote:

> Salvete Domiti et Triari
>
> You've piqued my curiosity now. What is a 'blue' state?
>
In the two latest Presidential elections it was noted that Bush's and
Kerry's votes -- I presume you know that US elections are decided on a
state-by-state basis and each state does a winner-take-all procedure? --
clumped in such a way that most of the center of the country went for Bush
while the New England states, the old industrial Eastern states south of
there, and California went for Kerry. I suspect it was a Kerryite who
chose to dub these the "red" and the "blue" states, because these colors
are the traditional ones used on military maps for "enemy" and "friendly".
(And it had to be somebody in the media, which are concentrated in New
York and California.)

The _really_ extreme Left wing of the Democrat party contains some people
who began to mutter about how the rest of the country had gone crazy and
the geographic division led some -- I don't have names -- to suggest that
the "blue" states secede. This was simply barking; as was promptly noted,
the USA is now too interdependent to allow any part of it to secede. (It
was too interdependent in 1860, too, but the Confederates didn't realize
that until too late.) Further, a breakdown of voting by counties showed a
much more complex interweaving of "blue" and "red" voters than the simple
breakdown by states seemed to show.

This is probably more than you wanted to know about "blue" states...

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43957 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
On Tue, 23 May 2006, P. Dominus Antonius wrote:

> On 5/23/06, P. Livius Triarius <dicconf@...> wrote:
>>
>> All the best assault rifles can be set to fire single shot, three-round
>> burst (the preferred setting), or continuous, blast-until-you-release-the
>> -trigger mode.
>>
> Not the legal ones.

The only "legal" assault rifles in this country are those owned the the US
Government and issued to military personnel. The tagging of lookalikes as
"assault rifles" is merely a ploy to the anti-Second-Amendment crowd to
get them banned by associzating them with a frightening name.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43958 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Roman private weapons (ERAT: Obsolete Weapons)
A. Apollonius Stephano Ullerio omnibusque sal.

Scripsisti:

> What were the Roman laws and/or views of self-defense and the common
citizen bearing some sort of arms to effect that? <

It's clear that most Romans had weapons in their houses. They had to: the Roman army was, at least in the earlier republic, self-equipped, which is why the Roman army (and population) was classified according to the type of weaponry each could afford. There was certainly no state monopoly on weapons.

It's also clear that it was not normal, at least in the upper classes about which we have information, to carry weapons around within the city. The sources specifically mention when, usually in times of civil disorder, politicians went armed: they wouldn't bother to mention it if it were normal practice. Of course many public figures would be accompanied in public by groups of supporters, and one could argue that these supporters were armed so their leaders didn't need to be - but I don't think this is likely. Accounts of actual fighting between groups like these are not common. They were mainly to demonstrate the leader's popularity and, on occasion, to intimidate others, but not to fight.

In law, harm inflicted in self-defence was not punished unless the force used was excessive - very similar to the modern law of self-defence in many countries.

Killing or harming another person was principally a civil-law offence, a matter between the attacker and his victim or the victim's heir. Some particular types of violence were criminal offences, however. From very early times parricidium - the killing of a parent or close relative - was a crime. Around the year 100 B.C. a permanent court was set up to deal with sicarii, i.e. thugs or hit-men. In 80 the jurisdiction of the court was expanded to deal with all types of deliberate killing and also "going about with a weapon for the purpose of homicide or theft". This suggests that there were some acceptable reasons for going around in public with a weapon, but in practice if you were caught in public with a weapon it might be quite difficult to prove that you didn't have it for the purpose of killing or stealing.

Violence short of killing (and even including killing) could also be dealt with by the court dealing with vis ('violence'). This permanent court was set up in 78; a second court was set up before 63. These courts dealt with offences against public order such as attacking magistrates, occupying public places by force, and "going about armed contrary to the interests of the republic". That last offence is broader than the one under the murder court, and could include just about anyone who carried a weapon in public unless he had some very good reason for doing so.

The fact that these permanent courts were only set up relatively late in the republic does not indicate that before that time it was considered perfectly acceptable to carry weapons in public or to attack or kill people. The Roman governing class was not suddenly converted to the anti-weapon cause in the year 100. It's simply that before this time it was not a big problem: people did not usually carry weapons in public and street-fighting was rare.

I'm sure there's more to say on the subject, but that's the legal point of view, and it's time for me to go to a lecture. :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43960 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Roman private weapons (ERAT: Obsolete Weapons)
Valetudo Cordus;

On 5/24/06, A. Apollonius Cordus <a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Stephano Ullerio omnibusque sal.
>
> Scripsisti:
>
> > What were the Roman laws and/or views of self-defense and the common
> citizen bearing some sort of arms to effect that? <
>
> It's clear that most Romans had weapons in their houses. They had to: the Roman army was, at least in the earlier republic, self-equipped, which is why the Roman army (and population) was classified according to the type of weaponry each could afford. There was certainly no state monopoly on weapons.
>
> It's also clear that it was not normal, [excision]
>

Thank you. This gives me a bit clearer picture. Quite interesting
the court system set up and the legal restrictions.

I had thought the Early Republican period army was composed thus.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43961 From: Caius Moravius Brutus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Salve!

I can relate to this as I've only once voted for the winning side in nearly twenty years and that turned out to be a mistake!

Vale

Brutus

S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
Avete,

Being a Red voter in a Blue state, color me Purple ,-)

=========================================
In felicitas - Venii


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43962 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
You got me. My mistake for buying into the media redefining words.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/24/06, dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
>
> The only "legal" assault rifles in this country are those owned the the US
>
> Government and issued to military personnel. The tagging of lookalikes as
>
> "assault rifles" is merely a ploy to the anti-Second-Amendment crowd to
> get them banned by associzating them with a frightening name.
>
> -- Publius Livius Triarius
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43963 From: Caius Moravius Brutus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Question On Palistine And Rome - Pax Romana
Salvete Vipsani, Triari et Tullia

Thanks for this. We colour our political parties as well - Blue for the Conservatives or Tories, Red for Labour (these two largest parties are pretty well indistinguishable at the moment!) and Orange or Yellow for the Liberal Democrats slightly to the left of centre. Plaid Cymru is Green as are the Greens (!!!!!) and IIRC the Scottish National Party are Yellow and Black.

Valete!

Brutus

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <canadaoccidentalis@...> wrote:
Blue is Democratic, red is Republican (I think it is backwards to the party colours in Canada - red for the Liberals, blue for the Tories; also orange for the New Democrats and a light blue for the Bloc Quebcois.

As for the seccession of the blue states, there is a map on some blogs that shows the blue states and Canada together as 'The United States of Canada" and the remaining red states as 'Jesusland'.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa

"A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote:
> A. Tullia Scholastica C. Moravio Bruto quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Salvete Domiti et Triari
>
> You've piqued my curiosity now. What is a 'blue' state?
>
> ATS: Our television newscasters distinguish the states which voted for
> one party of the other by color: blue states for one party, red for the
> other. One is Democratic, the other Republican, though not being a political
> hack, I¹m not sure which is which, though associating blue with secession does
> point to blue being the democratic color. In our civil war, however, soldiers
> from the Northern states wore blue uniforms, and those from the South, gray
> ones, so it is not impossible that this refers to that division, just much
> more unlikely.
>
> Realistically, we don¹t seem to have much of a secession movement in the
> U.S., though there are some who might like to do so.
>
> ===
>
> We don't exactly have separatist 'problems' within the UK but there are
> quite strong nationalist movements in Wales and Scotland. In both countries
> the Nationalists are the main opposition parties. The situation in Northern
> Ireland is well documented and ongoing. It's interesting to note with regards
> to the practicalities of secession that both the Scottish National Party and
> Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists) are in favour of independence from the UK but
> wish to remain within the European Union, presumably for reasons of trade and
> infrastructure. The idea of completely going it alone is only really only on
> the agenda in England (where the EU is quite unpopular) which I suppose could
> be big enough in population terms to survive by itself.
>
> With regards to the Pax Romana it has always been my belief that the old
> warrior cultures that dominated Britannia, Gaul and other areas within the
> Empire must have been immense fun if you were a warrior and a pain in the arse
> if you had worked all year to get the crops in only to have a warband come
> over the hill and steal the lot, probably together with your cattle and women
> as well. Human beings have always tended to prefer home-grown government - no
> matter how brutal or corrupt - and deeply resent being liberated by
> 'foreigners'. Certainly in our schools here a lot is made of Boudicca and the
> Romans are usually portrayed as aggressive invaders with no redeeming
> features. I suspect however that the average man in the field would have been
> much better off with the stability and order in which to work, trade and
> fluorish.
>
> As has been mentioned both Britain and Gaul remained loyal to the Empire
> until they had no choice but to go it alone and the breakdown of the Pax
> Romana was a disaster for the Celtic peoples.
>
> Valete
>
> Caius Moravius Brutus
>
> dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 May 2006, Gaius Domitius Cato wrote:
>
>> > Salve Omnes,
>> >
>> > Looking at the US (a modern empire with some of the characteristics
>> > of Roma Antigua) would any state vote to succede in modern times?
>
> There have been babblings about the "Blue" states seceding, but I imagine
> these were more raving than rational thought. At any rate, they were for
> political purposes and took no account of trade or peacekeeping.
>
> -- Publius Livius Triarius
> Curiosity thrilled the cat
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> CAIUS MORAVIUS BRUTUS
>
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43964 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: a.d. IX Kal. Iun. (corrected)
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IX Kalendas Iunius; haec dies fastus est.

"The next date's marked by four letters, QRCF, which, interpreted,
Signify either the manner of the sacred rites, or the flight of the
king." - Ovid, Fasti V

"Why is it that in the month of May at the time of the full moon they
throw into the river from the Pons Sublicius figures of men, calling
the images thrown Argives?
Is it because in ancient days the barbarians who lived in these parts
used to destroy thus the Greeks whom they captured? But Hercules, who
was much admired by them, put an end to their murder of strangers and
taught them to throw figures into the river, in imitation of their
superstitious custom. The men of old used to call all Greeks alike
Argives; unless it be, indeed, since the Arcadians regarded the
Argives also as their enemies because of their immediate proximity,
that, when Evander and his men fled from Greece and settled there,
they continued to preserve their ancient feud and enmity." - Plutarch,
"The Roman Questions" 32

"Why is the so-called rex sacrorum, that is to say 'king of the sacred
rites,' forbidden to hold office or to address the people?
Is it because in early times the kings performed greater part of the
most important rites, and themselves offered the sacrifices with the
assistance of the priests? But when they did not practise moderation,
but were arrogant and oppressive, most of the Greek states took away
their authority, and left to them only the offering of the sacrifice
to the gods; but the Romans expelled their kings altogether, and to
offer the sacrifices they appointed another, whom they did not allow
to hold office or to address the people, so that in their sacred rites
only they might seem to be subject to a king, and to tolerate a
kingship only on the gods' account. At any rate, there is a sacrifice
traditionally performed in the forum at the place called Comitium,
and, when the rex has performed this, he flees from the forum as fast
as he can." - op. cit. 63

Today is marked "QRFC". On this day the trumpets lustrated on the
Tubilustrium would be blown to herald the arrival of the ceremonial
rex sacrorum as he entered the comitium. The rex sacrorum would be
accompanied by the pontiffs and the Vestal Virgins, the guardians of
the sacred fire, as he tossed twenty four stuffed figures
(representing local heroes called Argives or Argei) into the Tiber
from the Pons Sublicus. This was the day on which Romans made their
testament in the Comitia Calata, that is, in the presence of the
Quirites gathered in curiae. The letters may mean either "Quando Rex
Comitiavit Fas", or, as Ovid points out, "Quod Rex Comitio Fugerat".
No-one really knows. Some sources say that the day is nefastus until
the rex sacrorum appears in the comitium, and is fastus after that.

Tarquin the Proud (L. Tarquinius Superbus) was the last king of Rome.
During his tyrannical reign Romans reached the end of their toleration
for arbitrary monarchs, and were ready to invent a remarkable form of
government, the republic. The story of the Rape of Lucretia was a
popular Roman tale which explained the downfall of Tarquinius. The
story goes like this: Roman men spoke of their wives at home and
decided to return and surprise them. Only Lucretia, wife to
Collatinus, was behaving in a chaste and modest fashion while her
husband was gone. Overcome with desire, Tarquin's son, Sextus,
returned and raped Lucretia. She told her husband what had happened
and urged him to avenge her. She then took her own life. This incident
sparked a revolution. The revolt was led by Lucius Junius Brutus and
Collatinus, and the result was that Tarquin was exiled from Rome.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Plutarch
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43965 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
A. Apollonius Cn. Salvio omnibusque sal.

Many thanks for this. I imagine most of us are still digesting it, but since you've kindly allowed me to see earlier drafts I have a bit of a head-start.

In general I think this would be a tremendous improvement on the current state of affairs. For the most part it involves no real departure from current practice, but it would serve two important functions: one is to allow everyone, including the priests themselves, to have a clearer understanding of the duties and processes of the sacra publica; the other is that it would ensure that the sacra publica develop in a way which is substantially in line with ancient practice.

You asked for comments on whether this document would be best as a senatus consultum, a lex, a decretum (I prefer the word used in your draft, 'responsum', which is more historical), or something else. My strong preference would be for it to be a responsum: a document approved and enacted by the collegium pontificum. The role of the collegium, historically, currently, and in your proposal, is to regulate the sacra publica, and regulating the sacra publica is precisely what this document would do, so it would make eminent sense for the collegium to be responsible for enacting it. Moreover, it would avoid the constitutional difficulties involved in having the comitia or the senate legislate concerning the sacra publica, which, as you know, is forbidden under at least one common interpretation of the lex constitutiva. It would be significantly preferable from a constitutional point of view, from a historical point of view, and from the point of view of maximum social and
political harmony, for this document to be adopted voluntarily by our public religious institutions rather than imposed upon them by an outside body.

This viewpoint also underlies my only two principal worries about this document. Both concern what appear to be attempts to make aspects of the sacra publica accountable or answerable to the comitia.

One is merely a matter of vague wording. In chapter II.B of the section 'de quattuor summis collegiis' you say that "each collegium shall be responsible in front of the senate and the comitia for recruiting and providing the means to instruct prospective new members". It is far from clear to me what exactly you imagine when you picture the collegia being responsible "in front of the senate and the comitia", but it could be taken to mean that there should be some formal mechanism whereby the collegia must account to the senate and the comitia, as if submitting their acts for ratification or approval. This would, of course, be unhistorical and would very much undermine the autonomy of the collegia. I think perhaps this is not what you have in mind, but it would be well to make that clearer. If, as I suspect, what you mean is simply that the collegia have this responsibility and should remember that they exist to serve the senatus populusque Romanus by maintaining the pax
deorum, then that is a very true sentiment, but perhaps it could be made clearer to avoid the interpretation I'm worried about.

The other matter is in the passage 'de collegio pontificum', in chapter VII.E, where you propose to allow the comitia to depose the pontifex maximus. This is, as I'm sure you know, totally unhistorical, and I think there is (as there usually is) a good reason why the Romans did not do it. To make the pontifex maximus vulnerable to deposition at any time by a popular vote would radically politicize the office, because its holder would know that he could be removed from it at any time if his popularity were to drop below 50%. The pontifex maximus is responsible for maintaining discipline among the other priests of the sacra publica, and may sometimes have to make unpopular decisions. Many of the best pontifices maximi have been unpopular at some points in their careers - I have in mind, for instance, P. Licinius Crassus and Q. Mucius Scaevola. If the pontifex maximus were vulnerable to deposition at any moment, he would most likely feel unable to make those unpopular
decisions, and the whole of the sacra publica could suffer. Even ordinary magistrates, once elected, know that they are secure in office until the end of their term and can therefore act boldly for the good of the republic without worrying about the whim of the electorate. The pontifex maximus should not be put in a weaker position.

There's one final point. We know that the pontifex maximus was, from the middle republic onwards, elected by a special procedure, and you have chosen that option in this draft: that's fair enough. But in your draft he is elected from a short list - a very short list! - of two pontifices chosen by their colleagues. I am almost certain that this was not part of the historical procedure, which was, I believe, that the comitia could choose any pontifex except the newest one. But there may well be some evidence I don't know about, for this is not my specialist area. Have you found some evidence, or is this a deliberate departure from the historical system? If it is the latter, what is the reason for it? If the aim is to give the pontifices more control over the choice of the pontifex maximus, then surely it would be better simply to choose the other historical option and allow them to co-opt him, without the comitia having any choice at all? After all, the comitia under your
draft proposal will have very little choice anyway, especially since the nominating panel, if it is so inclined, would be able to effectively rig the election by choosing one pontifex whom they know to be extremely unpopular, plus the one they want to have elected. We should always be very wary about departing from ancient practice where there is no obvious need to do so, so I'd encourage you to think again about this.

I hope those comments are of some help, if only in getting some conversation going. :)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43966 From: jeff hennessy Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
I did not realize they used AK47's in ancient Rome.
Perhaps it is something I missed somewhere. I though
this was a group for discussion of things Roman. I
wonder at what point it crossed over into discussing
Eastern Bloc weapons?

> Message 1
> From: "QFabiusMaxmi@..."
> QFabiusMaxmi@...
> Date: Tue May 23, 2006 11:32am(PDT)
> Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2006 9:01:37 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> dcwnewyork2002@... writes:
> AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the
> perfect weapon for
> the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one
> for home defense,
> there would be a lot less criminality...
> My concern with a AK-47,73, AKM et al, is: it's an
> assault rifle. So after I
> drop the perp
> with a well aimed burst, the rounds that missed are
> still circulating around
> the neighborhood.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43967 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

AK-47s were not used in ancient Rome, as you know. While much of the
discussion in this forum deals with ancient Rome, it is important to
understand that Nova Roma is not a society of anachronism, we are an
organization of New Romans living in a modern society. While being mindful
of ancient Rome is essential to our identity, living in the past is not
necessarily the case. This being the case the discussion sometimes goes in
different ways.

Valete:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul

On 5/24/06, jeff hennessy <jerichomyles2002@...> wrote:
>
> I did not realize they used AK47's in ancient Rome.
> Perhaps it is something I missed somewhere. I though
> this was a group for discussion of things Roman. I
> wonder at what point it crossed over into discussing
> Eastern Bloc weapons?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43968 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Hi Jeff,

Besides NR I belong to other historical lists or groups. Your point
comes up quite often there. In my opinion, part of the reason why we
study history is to learn from the past and see how we can apply
various ideas and lessons to today's world. For example what did the
battles of the ancient world have to do with the American Civil War
and WW II? wELL lEE, Grant through to Patton and Rommel applied
ancient tactics to their battles off and on.

Another example would be the Enron scandal. In his Gallic wars
Caesar is talking to a barbarian chieftain who wanted to cross Roman
territory in Trans Alpine Gaul to have at another tribe.My favourite
comment was the one Caesar made to (Ogretorix? don't
have my book here) when the boasted about the past victory over
Rome and how Rome would get it again if he didn't comply.Caesar, in
his high confidence said that the victory in the
clash was more or less a fluke and not to forget that the gods like
to leave evil people or those they are about to punish riding high
and mighty for a time only in order to make their upcoming fall that
much harder.
LOL, This sure reminds me of those stock market scandals in the
limelight over the past few years. Too bad the CEO's never heeded
Caesar's words.

Regards,

QSP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jeff hennessy
<jerichomyles2002@...> wrote:
>
> I did not realize they used AK47's in ancient Rome.
> Perhaps it is something I missed somewhere. I though
> this was a group for discussion of things Roman. I
> wonder at what point it crossed over into discussing
> Eastern Bloc weapons?
>
> > Message 1
> > From: "QFabiusMaxmi@..."
> > QFabiusMaxmi@...
> > Date: Tue May 23, 2006 11:32am(PDT)
> > Subject: Re: Obsolete Weapons
> >
> > In a message dated 5/22/2006 9:01:37 PM Pacific
> > Daylight Time,
> > dcwnewyork2002@... writes:
> > AK's are simple, durable, light and deadly - the
> > perfect weapon for
> > the masses - if every law abiding citizen had one
> > for home defense,
> > there would be a lot less criminality...
> > My concern with a AK-47,73, AKM et al, is: it's an
> > assault rifle. So after I
> > drop the perp
> > with a well aimed burst, the rounds that missed are
> > still circulating around
> > the neighborhood.
> >
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43969 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Perhaps Caesar may have done well to head his own words as well.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43970 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
----- Original Message -----
From: Von Otto
To: Grimnirs_Gate@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Werner GG von Otto
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: Christine Hawes Stabbed by Saudi


Grimnirs Heil to Christine
Hope she will be OK
Werner

----- Original Message -----
From: Christianne LeBlanc
To: folkishmaritimes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:10 PM
Subject: [folkishmaritimes] NSPAS founder stabbed


If you haven't heard already, the founder of the Nova Scotia
Provincial Asatru Society and the moderator of this group (Kathlin
Kveldulfsdottir nee Christine Hawes) was stabbed in the neck last
night.

She and a friend managed to subdue the stabber until police arrived.

She was taken to the Queen Elizabeth II Health and Sciences Center,
her injuries are non-life-threatening although she did lose a lot of
blood.

If you would like to go and see her she is on the 7th floor of the
old infirmary. Just don't bring flowers or anything scented, or wear
any scents, she is allergic. If things go well she should be home by
the weekend.

The stabber is supposively a Saudi national who is attending
university in Halifax, and according to rumours had information on
Asatruar and other practitioners of alternative faiths who frequent
IRC chats.

********************************

[Apparently the stabber penetrated a large neck vein, not
necessarily the jugular, but they need to keep her from sneezing
until it heals, hence the ban on allergens. - Appius Claudius
Priscus, M. D.]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43971 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Avete Omnes;

Christine is on 2 or 3 of the Northern Faithway lists to which I
subscribe, including one I own.

She says this was a street incident, apparantly motivated by robbery,
which turned quite sour. The perp was a 3rd generation Canadian
citizen of probable Middle Eastern descent; a 15 year old punk
thinking a couple of folkd coming out of a bar late at night would be
easy pickings.

Christine says the incident was blown way out of proportion by those
who posted the initial reports.

She's home, well on the mend. The only big hitch was needing put off
some surgery, whcih was planned due to a need to rebuild her red
cells.

On the flip side; she received word the same day that she is getting
to interview for a job she really wants.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43972 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: The Genographic Project
M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I'm joining in & posting this for cives who might have an
historical interest in where their ancestors migrated from;
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html
it's dead cheap at $99.95

Amazingly they know which sub Jewish groups left after the 2nd
exile,when the temple was destroyed. Hope it's my relatives. Anyway
I'm sending in my maternal DNA & hope I get something exciting like
Central Asian (Khazars? they have to pull the DNA to see if it's so)
otherwise I guess I'm a Scythian.

Anyway enjoy, but a caveat. Do NOT do this if you are not adventurous;
some poor guy - a British Episcopalian showed up at the Jewish DNA
forum wondering how he wound up in this subgroup;-)
valete
Marca Hortensia Maior
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43973 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2468
Salve P. Domine Antoni,

True, most don't practice what they preach; its more do as I say,
not as I do. The book of Proverbs in the bible is attributed ti King
Solomon but he too made dreadful errors and didn't always practice
what he preached.

Regards,

QSP



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
<marsvigilia@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps Caesar may have done well to head his own words as well.
> --
> >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> Tony Dah m
>
> Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43974 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Salvete omnes,

It is great news to hear she shall pull through ok. Sigh, at least
when I was growing up in Halifax these incidents were rare. Usually
the streets for the most part are safe and I hope the city is not
evolving negatively as it grows.

Regards,

QSP




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus"
<wend1066@...> wrote:
>
> Avete Omnes;
>
> Christine is on 2 or 3 of the Northern Faithway lists to which I
> subscribe, including one I own.
>
> She says this was a street incident, apparantly motivated by
robbery,
> which turned quite sour. The perp was a 3rd generation Canadian
> citizen of probable Middle Eastern descent; a 15 year old punk
> thinking a couple of folkd coming out of a bar late at night would
be
> easy pickings.
>
> Christine says the incident was blown way out of proportion by
those
> who posted the initial reports.
>
> She's home, well on the mend. The only big hitch was needing put
off
> some surgery, whcih was planned due to a need to rebuild her red
> cells.
>
> On the flip side; she received word the same day that she is
getting
> to interview for a job she really wants.
>
> =========================================
> In amicitia quod fides -
> Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
> Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor
>
> Religio Septentrionalis - Poet
>
> Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/
>
> http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
> http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
> http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
> --
> May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
> May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
> May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43975 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: List Of Roman Military Terms
Salvete omnes,

I swiped this from the IR2 list thanks to Robert. It looks very useful:

List Of Roman Military terms:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/List+of+Roman+military+terms

Regards,

QSP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43976 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-24
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
M. Hortensia Pauline omnibusque spd;
I'm happy she hasn't suffered serious wounds and that it's not
a crime of religious prejudice, but really petty criminals should
make sure to pick Quakers or Jains, not Odinists for their victims;-)
valete
M. Hortensia Maior
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> It is great news to hear she shall pull through ok. Sigh, at least
> when I was growing up in Halifax these incidents were rare.
Usually
> the streets for the most part are safe and I hope the city is not
> evolving negatively as it grows.
>
> Regards,
>
> QSP
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus"
> <wend1066@> wrote:
> >
> > Avete Omnes;
> >
> > Christine is on 2 or 3 of the Northern Faithway lists to which I
> > subscribe, including one I own.
> >
> > She says this was a street incident, apparantly motivated by
> robbery,
> > which turned quite sour. The perp was a 3rd generation Canadian
> > citizen of probable Middle Eastern descent; a 15 year old punk
> > thinking a couple of folkd coming out of a bar late at night
would
> be
> > easy pickings.
> >
> > Christine says the incident was blown way out of proportion by
> those
> > who posted the initial reports.
> >
> > She's home, well on the mend. The only big hitch was needing
put
> off
> > some surgery, whcih was planned due to a need to rebuild her red
> > cells.
> >
> > On the flip side; she received word the same day that she is
> getting
> > to interview for a job she really wants.
> >
> > =========================================
> > In amicitia quod fides -
> > Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
> > Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor
> >
> > Religio Septentrionalis - Poet
> >
> > Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/
> >
> > http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
> > http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
> > http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
> > --
> > May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
> > May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
> > May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43977 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·QVIRITIBVS·S·P·D

A. Apollonius scripsit:

> Many thanks for this. I imagine most of us are still digesting it, but since you've
> kindly allowed me to see earlier drafts I have a bit of a head-start.

You could see earlier drafts because your help was vital to shape this
draft. :-)
Thank you again for that.

> In general I think this would be a tremendous improvement on the current state of
> affairs. For the most part it involves no real departure from current practice, but it
> would serve two important functions: one is to allow everyone, including the
> priests themselves, to have a clearer understanding of the duties and processes
> of the sacra publica; the other is that it would ensure that the sacra publica
> develop in a way which is substantially in line with ancient practice.

That is the idea, yes. To get us on firmer ground with respect to the
religious institutions of Nova Roma. To give a first (although
necessarily large) step towards a historically accurate, fully working
Sacra Publica Romana. To restore the Pax Deorum.

> You asked for comments on whether this document would be best as a senatus
> consultum, a lex, a decretum (I prefer the word used in your draft, 'responsum',
> which is more historical), or something else. My strong preference would be for it
> to be a responsum: a document approved and enacted by the collegium
> pontificum. The role of the collegium, historically, currently, and in your proposal,
> is to regulate the sacra publica, and regulating the sacra publica is precisely
> what this document would do, so it would make eminent sense for the collegium
> to be responsible for enacting it. Moreover, it would avoid the constitutional
> difficulties involved in having the comitia or the senate legislate concerning the
> sacra publica, which, as you know, is forbidden under at least one common
> interpretation of the lex constitutiva. It would be significantly preferable from a
> constitutional point of view, from a historical point of view, and from the point of
> view of maximum social and political harmony, for this document to be adopted
> voluntarily by our public religious institutions rather than imposed upon them by
> an outside body.

I agree with you that, ultimately, this reform should be promoted by
the Collegium Pontificum - and that is being the case, after all. I
intend to get the approval of the pontifices for every step. But I am
beginning to realize that, no matter what, some paragraphs of the Lex
Constitutiva will have to be ammended; otherwise, we risk the danger
of actually *contradicting* it, if not now, then in the future, which
would make this reform illegal.

So I would say that any draft needs to pass through the pontifices,
then the senatories, then the cives in the Comitia. I do not consider
the Senate or the Comitia "estraneous bodies" to the religious
insitutions of the Res Publica - ultimately, and according to Roman
tradition, it is part of the duties of the Senate to maintain the
Sacra Publica.

> This viewpoint also underlies my only two principal worries about this document.
> Both concern what appear to be attempts to make aspects of the sacra publica
> accountable or answerable to the comitia.
>
> One is merely a matter of vague wording. In chapter II.B of the section 'de
> quattuor summis collegiis' you say that "each collegium shall be responsible in
> front of the senate and the comitia for recruiting and providing the means to
> instruct prospective new members". It is far from clear to me what exactly you
> imagine when you picture the collegia being responsible "in front of the senate
> and the comitia", but it could be taken to mean that there should be some formal
> mechanism whereby the collegia must account to the senate and the comitia,
> as if submitting their acts for ratification or approval. This would, of course, be
> unhistorical and would very much undermine the autonomy of the collegia. I think
> perhaps this is not what you have in mind, but it would be well to make that
> clearer. If, as I suspect, what you mean is simply that the collegia have this
> responsibility and should remember that they exist to serve the senatus
> populusque Romanus by maintaining the pax deorum, then that is a very true
> sentiment, but perhaps it could be made clearer to avoid the interpretation I'm
> worried about.

My intention, as you have interpreted correctly, is *not* to propose
that any act of the Quattuor Summa Collegia should be ratified by the
Senate or the Comitia -after all, the Quattuor Summa Collegia should
mainly be consultive boards of experts - but to make it clear that, if
the Quattuor Summa Collegia do not fulfill their duties, they are
responsible in front of the SPQR.

If you could suggest a way to spell this idea better than it is
spelled now, I would be grateful.

> The other matter is in the passage 'de collegio pontificum', in chapter VII.E,
> where you propose to allow the comitia to depose the pontifex maximus. This is,
> as I'm sure you know, totally unhistorical, and I think there is (as there usually
> is) a good reason why the Romans did not do it. To make the pontifex maximus
> vulnerable to deposition at any time by a popular vote would radically politicize
> the office, because its holder would know that he could be removed from it at any
> time if his popularity were to drop below 50%. The pontifex maximus is
> responsible for maintaining discipline among the other priests of the sacra
> publica, and may sometimes have to make unpopular decisions. Many of the
> best pontifices maximi have been unpopular at some points in their careers - I
> have in mind, for instance, P. Licinius Crassus and Q. Mucius Scaevola. If the
> pontifex maximus were vulnerable to deposition at any moment, he would most
> likely feel unable to make those unpopular decisions, and the whole of the sacra
> publica could suffer. Even ordinary magistrates, once elected, know that they are
> secure in office until the end of their term and can therefore act boldly for the
> good of the republic without worrying about the whim of the electorate. The
> pontifex maximus should not be put in a weaker position.

You are right that this is a point I would rather change for a better
solution. I left it there to present this draft to you all, but I
expected some debate and maybe some suggestions on how to deal with
it.

What I would like is to implement some accountability to the office of
the Pontifex Maximus. In our Res Publica, all magistrates have a
limited time in office, and are accountable for their actions after
the next election period. Under the system proposed by this draft, the
priests that conform the Collegium Pontificum would also be
accountable through the Pontifex Maximus. But how can we make the
Pontifex Maximus accountable? He is elected for life, so he doesn't
have to fear elections. He has no one to answer to. What do we do if
we ever elect a Pontifex Maximus that does not fulfill his duty?

Maybe giving the Comitia the power to depose the Pontifex Maximus is
not a good idea. Maybe we should make him accountable to the Senate,
but how? Should the Senate would be allowed to depose what basically
is a magistrate that has been elected through the Comitia?

An alternative (and I am just throwing ideas around) could be that the
consules could impose fines to the Pontifex Maximus - or to any
pontifex, for that matter - if they do not fulfill their duties;
especially if that fine is supported by a senatus consultum.

Do you have any other idea of how this could be done?

> There's one final point. We know that the pontifex maximus was, from the middle
> republic onwards, elected by a special procedure, and you have chosen that
> option in this draft: that's fair enough. But in your draft he is elected from a short
> list - a very short list! - of two pontifices chosen by their colleagues. I am almost
> certain that this was not part of the historical procedure, which was, I believe,
> that the comitia could choose any pontifex except the newest one. But there
> may well be some evidence I don't know about, for this is not my specialist area.
> Have you found some evidence, or is this a deliberate departure from the
> historical system?

I admit myself guilty of not properly keeping track of the sources I
have used to compile this draft. :-)

If I recall correctly, this idea arose during a discussion with M.
Moravius Piscinus on the subject, as a solution to give the pontifices
some input on who should be the next Pontifex Maximus - after all, and
contrary to Ancient Rome, were almost anyone could be considered to
have the necessary knowledge on the Sacra Publica to be the next
Pontifex Maximus, this is not the case in Nova Roma, at least for the
moment being, so it doesn't seem a bad idea to have some input from
our main board of experts in Roman religion to know who should be the
next Pontifex Maximus.

In any case, I am not adamant in that particular point. We could
increase the number of candidates in the shortlist, if you all think
that it is a good idea. Or even remove the shortlist altogether and
let the Comitia elect among the current pontifices - after all, they
*all* are supposed to be experts on the Sacra Publica.

[...]

> I hope those comments are of some help, if only in getting some conversation
> going. :)

Your comments seem very helpful to me. Thank you for making them. :-)

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43978 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Q. Caecilius Cn. Saluio sal.

I'm still digesting this myself, but I did want to propose one addition to
the Scriptum de IV Summis Collegiis. I propose adding a section to this
part which would allow the Collegium Pontificum to appoint members to a
given collegium when such a collegium has less than three members. This
would be a departure, as far as I know, from historical practice, but it is
certainly a practical one, and one which would now be necessary in two
cases, and could become necessary even more so as time goes (though I would
hope for quite the opposite).

First, and most importantly, this would prevent us from the rather
undesirable position of not being able to fill open positions when there are
no members of a given collegium, as is currently the case of the Septemviri
Epulones and the (Quin-)Decemviri Sacris Faciundis. As time goes on, of
course, this should become less necessary, but in our current situation, and
in light of the fact that this could be the situation in later times, this
would keep us from such a paralysis.

Second, this could prevent a situation of having one person choose who its
colleague will be, and those two choosing a third, and so on. While this
situation would be historical, in theory, it certainly has obvious
drawbacks. While not one of the IV Summa Collegia, let us take my first
position as an example.

Let us assume I were able, as the only Fetialis, to co-opt another Fetialis,
whom I know will only co-opt people favorable to me, and who is favorable to
me himself. Then we, as the only two Fetiales, appoint a third Fetialis
favorable to both of us. Then the three of us act similarly, and on goes
the process until we are at our twenty members. This would certainly very
easily over-politicise the position, and could very quickly turn it into a
jockeying match, especially in the IV Collegia.

If it is set that the Collegium Pontificum makes the early appointments,
while it may not prevent the situation, it can certainly mitigate it so that
its effects are not nearly as bad as it could easily become.

That's all I have for the moment. Of course, I'm sure that I'll have more
comments to add later, as I digest the rest of the proposal, but suffice it
to say that I like what you've presented.

Cura ut valeas.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43979 From: Chris Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: APPOINTMENT OF LEGATE PROVINCIA
I, Marcus Vitellius Ligus, Propraetor of America Austrorientalis,
hereby appoint

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus

Legate Provincia (Procurator) of America Austrorientalis.

Given under my hand, this day May 25 2759 auc, in the Consulship of
Franciscus Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia Minucia Strabo.

Marcus Vitellius Ligus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43980 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: a.d VIII Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VIII Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"I’ll not neglect you either, Fortuna Publica, of a powerful nation,
To whom a temple was dedicated on this following day.
When the sun’s been received by Amphitrite’s rich waters,
You’ll see the beak of Jove’s beloved tawny eagle." - Ovid, Fasti V

"To Tykhe (Fortune), Fumigation from Frankincense. Approach, queen
Tykhe, with propitious mind and rich abundance, to my prayer inclined:
placid and gentle, mighty named, imperial Artemis, born of Eubouleos
[Zeus] famed, mankind’s unconquered endless praise is thine,
sepulchral, widely wandering power divine! In thee our various mortal
life is found, and come from thee in copious wealth abound; while
others mourn thy hand averse to bless, in all the bitterness of deep
distress. Be present, Goddess, to thy votaries kind, and give
abundance with benignant mind." - Orphic Hymn 72 to Tyche

"Daughter of Zeus Eleutherios (Liberator), Tykhe our saviour goddess,
I pray your guardian care for Himera, and prosper her city's strength.
For your hand steers the ships of ocean on their flying course, and
rules on land the march of savage wars, and the assemblies of wise
counsellors." - Pindar, Odes Olympian 12

"A farmer struggling as he plunged his plough-share into the earth saw
a treasure-trove leap forth from the furrow. All in a rush, he
immediately abandoned the shameful plow, leading his oxen to better
seed. Straightaway he obediently built an altar to the Goddess
Ge/Tellus (Earth), who had gladly bestowed on him the wealth contained
within her. The Goddess Tykhe/Fortuna (Fortune), feeling slighted that
he had not thought her likewise worthy of an offering of incense,
admonished the farmer, thinking of the future while he was rejoicing
in his new-found affairs: 'Now you do not offer the gifts that you
have found to my shrine, but you prefer to make other gods the sharers
of your good fortune. Yet when your gold is stolen and you are
stricken with sadness, you will make your complaints to me first of
all, weeping over your loss." - Aesop, Fables 84 (Chambry) & Avianus,
Fabulae 12

Today is held in honor of Fortuna Publica, known as Tykhe to the
Greeks. Fortuna was propitiated by mothers. Traditionally her cult
was introduced to Rome by Servius Tullius. Fortuna had a temple in the
Forum Boarium, a public sanctuary on the Quirinalis, as the tutelary
genius of Roma herself, Fortuna Populi Romani, the "Fortune of the
Roman people", and an oracle in Praeneste where the future was chosen
by a small boy choosing oak rods with possible futures written on
them. All over the Roman world, Fortuna was worshipped at a great
number of shrines under various titles that were applied to her
according to the various circumstances of life in which her influence
was hoped to have a positive effect. Fortuna was not always positive:
she was doubtful (Fortuna Dubia); she could be "fickle fortune"
(Fortuna Brevis), or downright evil luck (Fortuna Mala).

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Pindar, Aesop/Avianus, Wikipedia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43981 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: APPOINTMENT OF LEGATE PROVINCIA
---Salve Vitellius Ligus:

I'm afraid this edictum is illegal, as you are not in a position to
issue it.

Since you did not express a desire to be prorogued in the last
Senate session dealing with this,you were not. Nor were you written
in. As it stands now, America Austrorientalis is without a governor
and thus neither you, nor anyone at this point, has the imperium to
issue provincial edicts, including those of appointment of legate,
as this one does below.

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus has applied for the position of governor
for your provincia and the Senate shall decide this matter during
this current senate session.

Vale
Pompeia Minucia Strabo
Consul Minor


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <duemmelc@...> wrote:
>
> I, Marcus Vitellius Ligus, Propraetor of America Austrorientalis,
> hereby appoint
>
> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus
>
> Legate Provincia (Procurator) of America Austrorientalis.
>
> Given under my hand, this day May 25 2759 auc, in the Consulship
of
> Franciscus Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia Minucia Strabo.
>
> Marcus Vitellius Ligus
> Propraetor America Austrorientalis
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43982 From: marcushoratius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
Salvete Quirites

There is a minor problem initially in how members for the other
collegia are to be selected. I don't think that the proposal of
Pontifex Metellus is the best solution. Historically the four
highest priestly collegia were independent of one another. No one
individual could be a member of any more than one of the collegia,
and no two people from the same family could be in any one
collegium. A provision might be considered to add to Astur's
proposal in order to represent this historical precedent as well.
Initially there might be some draw back in that it would exclude
some from serving in more than one collegia, but in the long run it
should provide more diversity that will benefit Nova Roma's
religious institutions. To further develop the independence of the
respective collegia, and to begin setting that as the relationship
between the various collegia, I do not think it best to have members
of one collegium selecting members of the other collegia.

Each collegium had its own area of expertise. When any religious
issue arose it was the Senate that determined which collegium would
best be consulted for advice. The priestly collegia should remain
advisory boards alone. The pontifices and other sacredotes might be
consulted and give their recommendations, but the Senate is best
suited, and historically the most proper body, to decide on such an
admistrative issue.

It can be argued, as I have done in the past, that the highest
religious authority in Roma antiqua was a comitia. For example,
disciplinary decisions of a Pontifex Maximus over the flamines could
be appealled by provocatio to a comitia. Comitia also established a
collegium, that of the Epulones, reorganized the Collegia of
Pontifices and Augures, and instituted election of the Pontifex
Maximus, and later, it seems, even election of Pontifices. A
comitia could also overrule a decision of the Senate. In theory
therefore a comitia was the highest religious authority. In
practice, tradition actually limited the role of a comitia. No
decision of a Pontifex Maximus, as far as we know, was ever
overruled by a comitia, even though there were instances where
provocatio appeals were made to a comitia. Elections occured, but
were exceptions to the tradition of cooption. Also the creation of
the Epulones and the reorganization of 300 BCE were exceptional
incidents of comitia involvement in questions related to the
religious institutions. The proposed reform offered by Pontifex
Astur is one of an exceptional nature. It will necessarily have to
go before a comitia eventually as it will involve a constitutional
amendment.

For filling in the various collegia initially, I would recommend a
three part process. Let all the members of the Collegium Pontificum
offer their recommendations to the Senate on who might be adlected
to the other collegia. Let the Senate select the choices for our
first Epulones and Decemviri. Then allow the Comitia Populi Tributa
to confirm the Senate's selections.

Another thing to consider in the long run is documentation of our
priests and priestesses. The issue has been raised about providing
our sacredotes with documents from Nova Roma to affirm their offices
for legal purposes. Such documents will be needed in some states
where a sacredos needs to apply for a license. The documents would
have to be issued by the Senate, as it is the Board of Directors for
Nova Roma, Inc. Astur's proposal will have each collegia coopting
their new members, and also may eventually have the collegia
appointing other sacredotes. Each collegia will eventually have to
establish training programs for the various sacredotes. I would
recommend that a provision be made in Astur's proposal that any
sacredotes appointed by the various collegia must first complete a
training program set up by the respective collegia, before the
sacredotes could apply for documentation. Then the various collegia
would recommend or reject the applications before sending them on to
the Senate. The Senate has to be the authority that determines and
issues such documentaion on behalf of Nova Roma. It has to be the
body that decides because of how Nova Roma, Inc. is organized. So
before we move on to this stage of development for the institutions
of the religio Romana in Nova Roma, a development that is long
overdue, we should consider and include what role the Senate will
have with the various collegia. Astur's proposal considers some
aspects in that relationship. My proposal above on filling in the
collegia initially, and this one on how to issue documentation for
our sacredotes, would in some measure go along with the historical
relationship that existed between the Senate and collegia, and would
help to better define what that relationship should be for Nova Roma
in the future.

Valete optime
M Moravius Piscinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus"
<metellus@...> wrote:
>
> Q. Caecilius Cn. Saluio sal.
>
> I'm still digesting this myself, but I did want to propose one
addition to
> the Scriptum de IV Summis Collegiis. I propose adding a section
to this
> part which would allow the Collegium Pontificum to appoint members
to a
> given collegium when such a collegium has less than three
members. This
> would be a departure, as far as I know, from historical practice,
but it is
> certainly a practical one, and one which would now be necessary in
two
> cases, and could become necessary even more so as time goes
(though I would
> hope for quite the opposite).
>
> First, and most importantly, this would prevent us from the rather
> undesirable position of not being able to fill open positions when
there are
> no members of a given collegium, as is currently the case of the
Septemviri
> Epulones and the (Quin-)Decemviri Sacris Faciundis. As time goes
on, of
> course, this should become less necessary, but in our current
situation, and
> in light of the fact that this could be the situation in later
times, this
> would keep us from such a paralysis.
>
> Second, this could prevent a situation of having one person choose
who its
> colleague will be, and those two choosing a third, and so on.
While this
> situation would be historical, in theory, it certainly has obvious
> drawbacks. While not one of the IV Summa Collegia, let us take my
first
> position as an example.
>
> Let us assume I were able, as the only Fetialis, to co-opt another
Fetialis,
> whom I know will only co-opt people favorable to me, and who is
favorable to
> me himself. Then we, as the only two Fetiales, appoint a third
Fetialis
> favorable to both of us. Then the three of us act similarly, and
on goes
> the process until we are at our twenty members. This would
certainly very
> easily over-politicise the position, and could very quickly turn
it into a
> jockeying match, especially in the IV Collegia.
>
> If it is set that the Collegium Pontificum makes the early
appointments,
> while it may not prevent the situation, it can certainly mitigate
it so that
> its effects are not nearly as bad as it could easily become.
>
> That's all I have for the moment. Of course, I'm sure that I'll
have more
> comments to add later, as I digest the rest of the proposal, but
suffice it
> to say that I like what you've presented.
>
> Cura ut valeas.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43983 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
A. Apollonius Cn. Salvio Q. Metello omnibusque sal.

First to Metellus' suggestion - to allow collegia with fewer than three members to have new members appointed by the collegium pontificum rather than by cooptatio - I have to say that although it's not historical, it does seem pretty sensible. On the other side of the argument, and for the sake of public information, I should point out that in the old republic there was actually a convention that no collegium could co-opt any new member who was an inimicus (personal enemy) of any current member. This had the advantage of preserving a certain minimal level of internal harmony within the collegium and thus preventing it from becoming riven with the sort of internal politics which sometimes afflicted the republic's non-religious institutions. But it's equally true that when this rule was observed there were already more than three members of every collegium.

Another option, for the sake of argument, would be to have the first two members of any given collegium simply chosen by the pontifex maximus as he chooses Vestales and flamines. This is perhaps a less appealing option, though it has a slightly more historical flavour.

Now, Astur amice, back to your reply to my reply...

I can understand your worry about possible conflicts, or perceived conflicts, with the lex constitutiva, but I would hope that the magistrates and the populus would be willing to make the necessary changes to that document in order to accommodate this commendable project to make the sacra publica more historical, more transparent, and more effective. Of course, as you know, my preference would be to repeal the lex constitutiva altogether, but perhaps that is slightly beyond your remit... ;)

The problem with having this text, or one like it, enacted, as you suggest, first by the pontifices, then by the senate, and then by the comitia, is that it will in many ways be the same as if it were enacted by the comitia to begin with. Once the comitia has enacted something as a lex, it can only be altered by another lex. Thus the collegium pontificum would almost immediately lose all control of the document. It would be vulnerable to amendment or repeal by the comitia without the input of the pontifices; and, on the other hand, the pontifices would be unable to amend or repeal it without the consent of the comitia. I can see no reason why this should be so. What you have in this text is, for the most part, a document concerning the internal regulations of the various collegia. There is really no good reason why the comitia or the senate should have any power to alter it or to forbid alterations to it. If it seems that some leges or senatus consulta might conflict with
it, then an accommodation can surely be negotiated.

On the point about "responsibility in front of the senate and the comitia", perhaps you could say something like "for the good of the senate and the people, each collegium shall recruit and provide the means to instruct new members..."

The matter of the accountability of the pontifex maximus is a difficult one. As you know, there is simply no historical solution: in the ancient republic a pontifex maximus could not be compelled to do his duty, merely subjected to pressure by the senate collectively and by the leading men of the state individually. To be honest I can't recall any pontifex maximus who was perceived as *needing* to be pressurized in this way. They all seem to have done the job to a greater or lesser extent.

Of course one relevant point is that many people in Nova Roma expect too much from the pontifex maximus because they have a mistaken idea (reinforced, I fear, by the lex constitutiva) that the entire sacra publica form a pyramidal, monolithic hierarchy in which everyone is ultimately answerable to the pontifex maximus and the pontifex maximus is ultimately responsible for everything. This has no basis in ancient practice, as you know. It has never been the job of the pontifex maximus to provide inspirational leadership or to organize exciting projects. He is simply one among a number of pontifices, except that he has various additional sacral duties and also some disciplinary powers to make sure that other priests do their duties properly.

But even so, I can see that there is a danger of getting a pontifex maximus who fails to do even the duties he is obliged by the mos majorum to do. I maintain the perhaps rather optimistic view that it ought to be possible to overcome this problem within the historical framework, without making the pontifex maximus subject to any formal sanction or accountability. There are many ways to place pressure on someone. One could, for example, call for a vote of confidence, either within the collegium pontificum or, in a more extreme case, even within the senate or perhaps even the comitia. A declaration by a majority of pontifices, of senatores, or of tribes saying that they have no confidence in the pontifex maximus and calling on him to step down would not have the effect of actually removing him from office, but it would be an extremely strong-willed person who would ignore such a strong message.

Nonetheless, if there really must be some formal mechanism to sanction the pontifex maximus or remove him from office, I would advise against the options you suggest. To allow the senate to depose him would, as you say, be constitutionally questionable since it would involve the senate removing a magistrate elected by the comitia (in modified form); it would also have precisely the same problem as having him deposed by the comitia, namely that he would become extremely vulnerable to a certain portion of public opinion.

To allow the consules to impose fines on him would not be very desirable either. Of course in strict law the consules already can impose fines on him if they wish, because the consules have the power to impose fines on anyone they please, subject to appeal by provocatio. An appeal would, in effect, trigger a vote of confidence such as I mentioned, so it might be a round-about way of achieving the same result. But at any rate I don't think we should give the consules formal additional powers to fine the pontifex maximus specifically, in addition to their general power to impose fines on any citizen. It would effectively subjugate the pontifex maximus, the most powerful figure in the sacra publica, to the civil magistrates. (We would also, as a matter of constitutional necessity, have to give the praetores the same power, because constitutionally the consules and the praetores have identical powers with the exception that the consules' have more force).

If we must have some formal mechanism, I would suggest simply making the office subject to regular re-election (or re-cooptation, if we decide to have the pontifex maximus co-opted rather than elected). The term of office should be as long as we could tolerate, so as to make him immune from political pressure as far as possible, and there should be restrictions on re-election as with civil magistrates. At the end of a term the pontifex maximus would become just a normal pontifex again and a different pontifex would take over the role. It's not a very appealing idea, but it would at least be more or less in line with the way the Romans exerted controls over officers whom they believed to need such controls.

Finally, the very-short-list of two pontifices from which the comitia is to choose the pontifex maximus. Since neither of us can recall any historical basis for this, let's assume that it is a deliberate innovation. To be honest, I see no reason for it. The historical system, as far as I know, was that the comitia could vote for any pontifex except the newest one. Presumably in practice the pontifices would let it be known whether or not they wanted the job, so the short-list would in fact not contain every single eligible pontifex, only those who actually stood forward. As you say, the pontifices are supposed to be experts on the sacra publica anyway, so if any of them is not sufficiently expert to be pontifex maximus he should not be a pontifex at all.

This comes back to my point above concerning the popular misconception. The pontifex maximus is not supposed to be any better qualified than any other pontifex as far as normal pontifical duties are concerned. Certainly some pontifices will be somewhat more expert than others, and it is natural for that to be taken into account; but the job of pontifex maximus is not really about that. Any pontifex should have the necessary religious knowledge to do the job. The addititonal skills required are not religious ones: they are skills in the areas of the enforcement of discipline, the selection of good candidates for priesthoods like those of flamen and Vestalis, the maintenance of the annales maximi, and so on. These are skills which the collegium pontificum is no better qualified to assess than the ordinary voter, and there is no reason why the pontifices should be involved in drawing up any kind of short-list.

(Finally I must say something I've only just noticed about the current idea (and perhaps the fact that I didn't notice it before shows how un-cynical I am). Two pontifices are chosen to draw up a short-list of... two pontifices. How might their conversation go? Perhaps something like, "I'll nominate you if you nominate me"...)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43984 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Mithras shrine built in Iowa by NR citizen
Salvete omnes!

Today I built a Mithras shrine in the public park that has the
statue of the bull, in Audubon, Iowa. It's near the south edge of
town, east of the Chamber of Commerce greeting center; I think it's
called American Legion Park. I had a smooth limestone rock the size
of a football, and chiseled "MITRA NOVA ROMA" on it. Then I
put it in the rock garden at the park.

So, now there's a Mithras shrine in Iowa. I don't know how long it
will last. Maybe Christians will complain and get the groundskeeper
(whom I met while I was there, he's a nice old chap) to take it
away. Or, maybe they'll be afraid to complain, because "Mitra" (a
spelling I chose because it has fewer letters) is the Hindu spelling
and the natives might be afraid of seeming "prejudiced" or offending
wealthy Indian-Americans.

If you do this kind of stonework be sure to wear eye protection
(goggles or wraparounds, or at least glasses) and ear protection
(plugs or muffs or, if you're using iron tools, both).
Limestone/marble is a much safer material because it's soft and
nontoxic (little danger of silicosis, which is a hazard with
granite). I found that a French mallet (i.e., cylindrical) works
best; I used a big rusty tractor linchpin I found buried, but
hardwood (e.g., apple wood) mallets are recommended and are
quieter. A hard baseball-size rock makes a good mallet if you hold
it loosely in your hand, as if in a cage, and sort of throw it at
the chisel to save your wrist from the impact. A granite or any
hard "river rock" pebble the size of a cell phone makes a good
chisel. A flint rock or nail is good for finer chiseling and
scratching. Don't hit hard; light to moderate taps easily do the
job and are safer.

Any Roman traveling from Omaha to Des Moines is welcome to take a
detour to Audubon and worship at the shrine! I took film photos,
close up and with background, but the yahoo site doesn't accept the
scan I made. I have double prints; if you want a print, send a
postal address to:

appiusclaudiuspriscus@...

or send me your email address and I'll send the scan file.

Vale,
A. Claudius Priscus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43985 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Salvete omnes!

I oppose the minimization of this incident. Police and journalists
are trained to paper-over racial and religious motives. That might
serve the interests of the government, but it doesn't serve the
interests of the truth, nor of the people. From the previous posts,
I gather that the police were in the victim's hospital room
reassuring her, that it wasn't racial or religious because the
perpetrator had a Canadian grandparent. That's typical of how the
police minimize.

Attacking the neck is the easiest way to kill someone quickly with a
knife. That's how the wrestling coach in Justinian's army
dispatched two consecutive Sassanid champions in single combat.
Just because he missed her carotid by, maybe, an inch, only cutting
large veins (jugular?) which bled enough to require postponing
planned surgery (how much did she lose? a unit? two units? the
average 110 lb woman has six units in her body) doesn't mean it's
not serious, or that we can go back to sleep.

When a woman I know in St. Louis was burglarized, the police told
her, "It's just kids." Months later, "kids" (the same "kids"?)
killed a Russian immigrant woman only a block down the highway, by
throwing a rock off the overpass. Her husband told the newspaper he
was fed up with America, he was going back to Russia.

Vale,
Appius Claudius Priscus, citizen and assiduus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43986 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Tsch. Tsch.
Someone might think you were saying something negative about a muslim or
god(s) forbid Islam. Best find some way to turn this around and blame the
US Southern Baptists. No one likes them anyway.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 5/25/06, appiusclaudiuspriscus <appiusclaudiuspriscus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> I oppose the minimization of this incident. Police and journalists
> are trained to paper-over racial and religious motives. That might
> serve the interests of the government, but it doesn't serve the
> interests of the truth, nor of the people. From the previous posts,
> I gather that the police were in the victim's hospital room
> reassuring her, that it wasn't racial or religious because the
> perpetrator had a Canadian grandparent. That's typical of how the
> police minimize.
>
> Attacking the neck is the easiest way to kill someone quickly with a
> knife. That's how the wrestling coach in Justinian's army
> dispatched two consecutive Sassanid champions in single combat.
> Just because he missed her carotid by, maybe, an inch, only cutting
> large veins (jugular?) which bled enough to require postponing
> planned surgery (how much did she lose? a unit? two units? the
> average 110 lb woman has six units in her body) doesn't mean it's
> not serious, or that we can go back to sleep.
>
> When a woman I know in St. Louis was burglarized, the police told
> her, "It's just kids." Months later, "kids" (the same "kids"?)
> killed a Russian immigrant woman only a block down the highway, by
> throwing a rock off the overpass. Her husband told the newspaper he
> was fed up with America, he was going back to Russia.
>
> Vale,
> Appius Claudius Priscus, citizen and assiduus
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43987 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
On Thu, 25 May 2006, appiusclaudiuspriscus wrote:

> Salvete omnes!
>
> I oppose the minimization of this incident. Police and journalists
> are trained to paper-over racial and religious motives. That might
> serve the interests of the government, but it doesn't serve the
> interests of the truth, nor of the people. From the previous posts,
> I gather that the police were in the victim's hospital room
> reassuring her, that it wasn't racial or religious because the
> perpetrator had a Canadian grandparent. That's typical of how the
> police minimize.
>
> Attacking the neck is the easiest way to kill someone quickly with a
> knife. That's how the wrestling coach in Justinian's army
> dispatched two consecutive Sassanid champions in single combat.
> Just because he missed her carotid by, maybe, an inch, only cutting
> large veins (jugular?) which bled enough to require postponing
> planned surgery (how much did she lose? a unit? two units? the
> average 110 lb woman has six units in her body) doesn't mean it's
> not serious, or that we can go back to sleep.

BTW the amount of blood _you_ have can be roughly estimated from hyour
body mass. Divide hyour weight in pounds by 22 and that's about the
number of pints ("units") of blood you have in your body. Normally, only
about half of this is circulating when you are at rest; the remainder is
in reserve, mostly in the large blood vessels in the abdomen. There, I
knew I'd get some more use out of my medical lab technologist training
some day.

I agree with A. Claudius Priscus' feeling that this should not be
minimized. Maybe it _was_ just a fumbled effort at murder-to-rob (as if
that were trivial, nowadays), but cutting the veins in the neck is the
correct procedure for _halal_ -- Muslim ritual killing. See the notorious
case of Theo van Gogh, who was shot and then halaled. That's how you make
sure an _animal_ is dead and bled out, if you're an observant upholder of
Islam.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43988 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Under Islamic law Christians and Jews are considered "People of the Book",
and are therefor accorded some minimal rights. Pagans are accorded none at
all. If you think living with a Christian majority is unpleasant, you are
going to love living under Muslims ascendant.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/25/06, dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with A. Claudius Priscus' feeling that this should not be
> minimized. Maybe it _was_ just a fumbled effort at murder-to-rob (as if
> that were trivial, nowadays), but cutting the veins in the neck is the
> correct procedure for _halal_ -- Muslim ritual killing. See the notorious
>
> case of Theo van Gogh, who was shot and then halaled. That's how you make
>
> sure an _animal_ is dead and bled out, if you're an observant upholder of
> Islam.
>
> -- Publius Livius Triarius
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43989 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
-M. Hortensia omnibus spd;
Eheu, I forgot about this manner of killing, on
reflection I think you are right and we should be concerned. Over at
the Italian forum SaturniaTellus, somone posted a win by an Odinist
employee of the Royal Mail in Britian. The issue? He used
the 'multicultural prayer' room that the Muslims used. And the
Muslims and the RM did not appreciate this!
The upshot was a court judge declared Odinism a legal religion.
(yes Europe is terribly behind on the concept of religious freedom &
recognition). I take this as a wake-up call that all pagans should
be as public as possible! And to fight for legal recognition by the
EU.
valete
M. Hortensia Maior

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
<marsvigilia@...> wrote:
>
> Under Islamic law Christians and Jews are considered "People of
the Book",
> and are therefor accorded some minimal rights. Pagans are
accorded none at
> all. If you think living with a Christian majority is unpleasant,
you are
> going to love living under Muslims ascendant.
> --
> >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> Tony Dah m
>
> Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
>
>
> On 5/25/06, dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with A. Claudius Priscus' feeling that this should not be
> > minimized. Maybe it _was_ just a fumbled effort at murder-to-
rob (as if
> > that were trivial, nowadays), but cutting the veins in the neck
is the
> > correct procedure for _halal_ -- Muslim ritual killing. See the
notorious
> >
> > case of Theo van Gogh, who was shot and then halaled. That's
how you make
> >
> > sure an _animal_ is dead and bled out, if you're an observant
upholder of
> > Islam.
> >
> > -- Publius Livius Triarius
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43990 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Fwd: Pagan Victory in English Court Law
-Salvete;
here it is, kindly forwarded by a fellow cultor in Lusitania--
, "Lusitano-Romano" <LUSO_ROMANO@...> wrote:

Here's an article that is of the interest of all those who strive to
restablish the cult of the European Ancient Deities:

***

From: Robin Jackson
(Information Officer,
Odinist Fellowship)

Dear Colleague,
You will be interested in this ground-breaking judicial decision,
giving legal recognition to the Odinist religion in English law, as
more fully detailed in the attached Round Robin. For the first time
ever, a judicial declaration has stipulated that a pagan religion,
namely Odinism, is to be accorded recognition, as a religion, for
legal purposes. The legal precedent, established by this case, will
help to protect the rights, not only of Odinists, but of all pagans,
in the workplace. The Odinist Fellowship is proud of having achieved
this breakthrough for the wider pagan community.
Thanks be to the gods and goddesses!


7 April 2006

Round Robin 2006 / 2 - WE'VE WON!


Dear Fellow Odinists,

Today I have received some good news, which I have been waiting for
with anticipation. I have held up this issue of this Round Robin, so
as to make the announcement without delay. It concerns the tribunal
case of an Odinist, sacked by his employer for expressing his
religious faith in the workplace. The case has enormous implications
for all pagans, especially as a legal judgment had to be reached as
to whether Odinism, and by implication other pagan religions, should
be accorded recognition under anti-discrimination legislation. We
are
delighted, therefore, to be able to declare the result, which our
barrister summed up so succinctly and simply with the words, "We've
won!"

The case of Royal Mail Group PLC versus Donald Holden, which was
heard in the Manchester Industrial Tribunal on 9 and 10 March,
pitted
a large, wealthy corporation, with a multi-million pound turnover,
against a sole individual, Donald Holden, whose only resources were
his honest integrity and his dogged determination to stand up for
his
rights. Donald is a member of the Odinist Fellowship, and we were
able to put him in touch with a first-class barrister, Adrian
Davies,
an observer member of the Fellowship, who, I have to say, made
mincemeat of the Royal Mail's witnesses in court. I, myself, was
present on both days of the two-day hearing, and presented evidence
as a witness on Donald's behalf.

Whilst listening to the tribunal proceedings, I could not help
thinking of Franz Kafka's disturbing, German-language novel, "The
Trial", in which the hero gets embroiled in a surreal nightmare of
paranoia-inducing, legal proceedings and insane bureaucracy. But by
comparison with Kafka's narrative, it is the Holden case, which
reads
like far-fetched, surrealist fiction. Yet, sadly, the sorry society,
in which we live, produces such travesties week in, week out.

What are the facts of this case? Many of you will be surprised, as I
was, to learn that, increasingly, employers with a large proportion
of Muslim staff are being obliged to set aside rooms in the
workplace
for Muslim prayers, and to allow their employees to take time away
from their duties to engage in these prayers. At the Mail Centre
where Donald worked, there was just such a room, which was
designated
as a "Multicultural Room". That is important, because never, at any
time, did the Royal Mail claim that the Room was solely for Muslim
use, or that non-Muslims might not use it for their own purposes.

And the simple point, that Donald was evidently trying to make is
that he too, as an Odinist, and as a non-Muslim, had the right of
access to the facilities, which, in theory, the management had set
aside for all staff, but which, in practice, were being used as an
exclusive Muslim Club Room. Donald had the audacity to enter the
Room, as if he had an equal right to it as any other employee, in
order to spend a few moments in silent prayer; and just as the
Muslim
employees used the Room to store their Korans and prayer calendars,
Donald, himself, presumed to have the right to leave his sheets of
paper, containing the text of our introductory booklet, "All About
Odinism", downloaded from the internet, and some images of Odin, in
the Room, on a couple of plastic chairs placed next to a sink.

One item of evidence, which I have seen, is a book used to sign in
and out for the key to this Multicultural Room. Donald's visits to
the Room were always of short duration, and mainly took place on a
Saturday, when the Mail Centre was almost empty, and when his
security duties obliged him to patrol the building to check all was
in order. I was able to see for myself, that certain names and
signatures, evidently belonging to Muslim employees, recurred time
and time again in the signing-in book, sometimes three or four times
in a single shift, and that the duration of their stay was often
half
an hour, or more. Some would call this "skiving". It is true that
pious Muslims are obliged to pray five times a day, and those times
are usually considered to be dawn, morning, noon, evening and
nightfall. So it seems remarkable that some of the Muslim employees
were trying to fit them all into one shift. But the Royal Mail's
managers weren't interested in that! They were more interested in
what Donald was getting up to in the Muslim Club Room – sorry,
Multicultural Room!

The man was obviously threatening the cosy arrangement between
management, unions and Muslim leaders, that prevailed at the Mail
Centre – and so he had to be stopped! An anonymous complaint was
made – this goes back to October 2004 – to the effect that a muddy
footprint had been left on the carpet of the Multicultural Room.
What
could this mean? There could only be one possible interpretation:
quite clearly, the culprit had intended it as an attack on the
Muslim
religion. And not only was it, self-evidently, an anti-Muslim
footprint, but on closer examination it became obvious that it must
have been made by an anti-Islamic boot; and, no doubt, that anti-
Islamic boot had been wielded by an Islamophobic foot. And who else
could that Islamophobic foot belong to? The principal suspect had to
be Donald Holden, of course!

What could any reasonable manager do in such circumstances?
Obviously, there was only one solution: set up covert spy cameras in
the Multicultural Room to trap the culprit, as he goes about
creating
criminal damage! So, for five months, from October 2004 to February
2005, the managers video-recorded Donald to see if he was causing
deliberate damage in the Room. Surprise, surprise! – the outcome of
this five-month surveillance operation – which, no doubt, cost
thousands of pounds to undertake – was that not a single piece of
evidence was uncovered, implicating Donald in damage of any sort.
Nor, indeed, were any more muddy footprints discovered.

One of the curious features of the Holden case is that no one has
ever managed to discover who actually muddied the carpet! Indeed, as
the hearing progressed, it became increasingly doubtful whether
anyone had actually seen any muddy footprint on the carpet, in the
first place. None of the Royal Mail's managers, neither the
investigating officer, nor Donald's line manager, nor the external
appeals officer, admitted to having actually seen any footprint at
all. And the only evidence, offered in support of its existence, was
two anonymised statements, purportedly made by Muslim members of
staff. But since these two statements were anonymous, and since
those
responsible for making them did not appear in court, and could not
therefore be cross-examined, I began to find myself doubting their
existence too. Had there ever been a muddy footprint? Did the
affronted Muslims really exist? Was the footprint really anti-
Islamic? Or was it just an imaginary, anti-Muslim, muddy footprint?
The truth may never be known for certain, but some might be inclined
to call it a "set-up".

Now, of course, Donald was not aware that he was being spied on over
a period of five months, and he was on his own whenever he went into
the Multicultural Room. So, if he had had a mind to tear up a few
Korans, scrawl anti-Muslim slogans on the walls, or leave behind
defamatory cartoons of Mohammed, he could have done so without
apparent risk of detection. But Donald had absolutely no intention
of
doing anything against the Islamic religion; he was simply intent on
doing something for the Odinist faith, by staking his claim, as an
Odinist, to a share in the use of that small part of his workplace –
to establish his right of way, so to speak. Far from attempting
anything suspicious, he dutifully signed in and out in the book for
the key to the Multicultural Room, and simply went there to spend a
few minutes on his own, as the video-recordings clearly showed.

So, after five months of achieving nothing, what were the managers
at
the Mail Centre supposed to do? They realised that a charge of
criminal damage could never be made to stick. But the matter could
not be allowed to rest there, could it? No, it could not, for the
video evidence gathered proved that Donald had been repeatedly
leaving his religious literature in the Room on some plastic chairs
near a sink. Doubtless, in some societies in the world today, that
would be sufficient grounds for the culprit to be taken out, and
summarily executed. However, as we, in this country, have not yet
got
around to introducing summary executions for insulting Islam, Donald
was called in to be interviewed by an investigating officer, – this
was on 23 February 2005, – subjected to a gruelling inquisition, and
summarily suspended from work on the grounds of "religiously
aggravated harassment directed against the Muslim faith". Donald was
never to do a day's work for the Royal Mail again.

The weakness of the Royal Mail's case against Donald, which became
only too apparent during the course of the tribunal hearing,
especially when our excellent barrister got the opportunity of
grilling – and then frying and roasting – the Royal Mail's managers
in cross-examination, is that, at each stage of the disciplinary
proceedings against Donald, the definition of what action was deemed
to constitute the "religiously aggravated harassment" altered. No
two
managers could exactly agree on what it was that Donald had done,
which deserved to be called "harassment", but they all agreed that
he
was guilty of it, nonetheless.

The investigating officer, who suspended Donald in February 2005,
took the line that it was the religious literature, left by Donald
in
the Room, that was offensive to Muslims. This officer, in his
interview with Donald, derided and belittled Donald's Odinist faith,
trying to make him admit that he was not a true believer, and then
asserting that Odinism was not a real religion at all. To support
this, he had obtained a written statement from one of the Royal
Mail's legal officers, stating: "We do not believe that Odinism
could
ever be recognised as a religion in a democratic society." The
investigating officer, who had done some cursory research on the
internet, quizzed Donald about aspects of the religion, and whenever
Donald failed to give a ready answer, then tried to make it appear
as
if he was insincere in his religious persuasion. He described the
literature Donald had left in the Room, i.e. the text of our "All
About Odinism" booklet, as "offensive", and he called the pictures
of
Odin, also left there, "disturbing" and "alarming". When asked what
he had been doing in the Room, Donald answered that he had been
praying, though he had obviously not been kneeling or kow-towing
while doing so, but this explanation was treated with derision.
Despite a considerable amount of pressure put on him to admit that
he
was not truly an Odinist believer, or that Odinism is not a genuine
religion, or that he was not really praying, Donald remained utterly
steadfast, and refused to give in to any of these impudent and
insulting assertions. The result was that Donald was summarily
suspended from work, on full pay, pending further disciplinary
investigations.

I must also add, that this investigating officer admitted, in
writing, that he was responsible for confiscating Donald's papers,
including the two images of Allfather Odin – papers, which were,
after all, Donald's private property – and then destroying them! Why
did he have to do that? I made it clear to the tribunal, in my
submissions, that this spiteful, sacrilegious act would cause a
scandal among all true Odinists.

It was at this time, that Donald first contacted me. I have to admit
that, initially, I could hardly believe that I was hearing the whole
story, and so I insisted on ascertaining the facts, and seeing the
supporting documentation, myself. In all the two dozen years, in
which I have worked for the Odinist movement, I had never
encountered
a genuine case of religious discrimination in the workplace. So I
was
astonished to do so now. At Donald's request, I wrote, in my
capacity
as Director of the Odinist Fellowship, to the Chairman of the Royal
Mail Group, Mr Alan Leighton, pointing out to him that he must be
aware, even if some of his subordinates were not, that it is illegal
to discriminate on grounds of religion in matters of employment, and
has been ever since the introduction of the Employment Equality
(Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003. I asked him to reconsider his
managers' ill-advised decision, so as to prevent the matter from
coming to court.

However, the case was then passed on, from the investigating
officer,
to Donald's own line manager. Perhaps because of my letter to Mr
Leighton, – who knows? – Donald's manager professed himself to be
unconcerned by the content of the literature left in the Room. He
had
looked at the investigation afresh, and it was not the Odinist
literature or images that disturbed him, and which he deemed to
constitute "religiously aggravated harassment". No, it was the fact,
of which there was undoubted video evidence, that Donald had walked
on the carpet! – and that he had done so without taking his shoes
off! – although his shoes must have been clean, since he had not
left
any muddy footprints! Walking on the carpet in the Multicultural
Room, while wearing shoes, was against the rules. More seriously, it
definitely – and without the shadow of a doubt –
constituted "religiously aggravated harassment". What is more, since
this action had been repeated time after time, Donald Holden was
clearly a serial carpet-walker, and totally unfit to remain in the
Royal Mail's employ. "Religiously aggravated harassment" is a
criminal offence, and the manager had seriously considered reporting
the matter to the police. He had no choice, therefore, but to decide
on a summary dismissal. A man, who had had nearly thirty-three
years'
unblemished service in the Royal Mail, was to lose his livelihood
and
his pension rights – and all because he walked on the carpet!
Welcome
to the joys of diversity in Multicultural Britain!

Donald appealed against his dismissal. The external appeals officer
confirmed the decision to dismiss, but the grounds of dismissal this
time were not because of the supposedly offensive action of leaving
religious literature in the Multicultural Room, nor because of the
harassment implicit in walking on the carpet, but because – oh, it
gets funnier by the minute – because he moved the plastic chairs!
The
appeals officer stated, that she might not have taken such a dim
view
of Donald Holden's transgression, if it had not been for the fact
that the video evidence showed him unstacking the two plastic chairs
at the rear of the room, and placing one of them near the sink,
where
the Muslims used to wash before prayers. The video film showed, that
he did this repeatedly on many of the occasions, when he entered the
Multicultural Room. Indeed, Donald admitted having done so, and that
he had placed his images on the chair, so as to have a better view
of
them. The appeals officer therefore, naturally, concluded that it
was
a case of harassment. Moreover, it was repeated and deliberate
harassment, and therefore "religiously aggravated harassment". As
such, it was just about the most serious crime in the book. The
decision to dismiss was confirmed.

Fortunately, not everyone in the world has gone stark, raving mad.
The three Panel Members of the Manchester Industrial Tribunal, after
hearing all the evidence in the case, formed the judgment that
Donald
Holden had been unfairly dismissed, and, although they cannot order
his reinstatement, they can order the Royal Mail to pay a
substantial
package of compensation. The pay-out is likely to run to six
figures.
And rightly so! He has lost his job, his overtime opportunities, and
his retirement prospects. And I know, that the stress of a long-
drawn
out case has taken its toll on him and on his family. Fortunately,
Donald has found alternative employment. And perhaps it will turn
out
to be a blessing in disguise, as his conditions of work, alongside
such managers, could hardly have been congenial. I am sure all our
members will join me in wishing him and his family all the very best
for the future – and likewise in expressing our appreciation to his
dedicated legal team!

Let us not forget, however, that thanks are also due elsewhere. We
have prayed to the gods, especially to Forseti, the god who presides
over cases of law to ensure justice is achieved. And we have asked
others to join with our prayers, and I am assured that they have
done
so too. Three weeks ago, during a rally of Northern members, held on
the occasion of the Odinist Easter at Grindleford, in Derbyshire, we
offered a sacrifice for this particular intention. The sacrifice of
the Cup of Remembrance is magically most effective. The gods heard
our pleas, and worked through us to bring victory in a just cause.
Odinism has been vindicated! Thanks and praise be to Forseti, and to
all the gods and goddesses!

One noteworthy feature of this story is that the anti-pagan
persecution was not being directed by Donald's Muslim colleagues,
with whom he had no real problem at all, but by a clique of
managers,
all of them white British, who are dogmatically committed to
pursuing
their own perverse programme of "multicultural diversity". These
managers were absolutely and unswervingly convinced that a trivial
action, like placing a plastic chair by a sink, could be viewed as
nothing other than a premeditated insult to Islam. Yet the same
managers admitted, in the tribunal, that their knowledge of the
Muslim faith was limited in the extreme. In a previous age, such
hypocritical paragons of political correctitude, would have made
exemplary Puritan witch-finders, or agents of the Holy Inquisition,
ferretting out heretics who had eaten meat in Lent, or crossed
themselves the wrong way round, and casting them on to the burning
pyre. The self-styled "politically correct", with their multi-faith
agenda, are truly the witch-finders general of the modern age.

Let me conclude by quoting the reserved judgment of the tribunal
concerning the recognition of Odinism as a religion. The tribunal
had
to decide whether Odinism satisfies the definition of a religion or
belief in terms of the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief)
Regulations 2003. This is the first time ever that this question has
been considered in court, and the tribunal's judgment establishes a
precedent, which can be referred to in any future law case in which
an Odinist – or, by implication, any other pagan – claims unfair
dismissal on religious grounds or religious discrimination in
matters
of employment. The reader will, particularly, want to note the
identifying characteristics that the tribunal panel were looking
for,
in trying to ascertain, on an objective basis, whether or not
Odinism
should be recognised, for legal purposes, as a religion, as these
are
the features that a reasonable person would expect any recognisable
religion to possess. Here is what the tribunal declared:-

"The first issue for the Tribunal is whether Odinism satisifies the
definition of a religion or belief in regulation 2(1). Mr Davies
contends that it does. Mr Peacock [barrister representing the Royal
Mail] neither admits nor disputes it."
"The Tribunal finds that Odinism is a religion or belief within
regulation 2(1). The Tribunal has considered the literature about
Odinism in the Bundle of Documents (which appears to be principally
a
hard copy of material from the website of the Odinist Fellowship)
and
also the evidence given by Mr Harrison, the Director of the Odinist
Fellowship. The Tribunal finds Odinism to be a belief systm based on
the pre-Christian heathen religion of the British Isles. It is
polytheistic and honours the Odinic pantheon of deities with
particular regard being paid to the deity of Odin or Woden. It has a
concept of the secular and the spiritual worlds and the relationship
between them. It has a broad code of ethics based on what are called
the Nine Noble Virtues. It has rituals and ceremonies including the
Cup of Remembrance, Naming, Pledge of Faith, Wedding and Laying to
Rest. It does not have any sacred texts as such but it pays special
heed to works known as the Prose Edda and the Poetic Edda which it
regards as sources of information about the heathen religion. The
Tribunal is not required to make any value judgment or assessment of
Odinism as a belief system but to decide whether it satisfies the
relatively exiguous definition in regulation 2(1) and the Tribunal
is
satisfied that it does."

Well, I don't think you can say fairer than that! Remember the case
of Royal Mail Group PLC v Holden (2006). For all pagans of every
kind, this has established a precedent ensuring your rights in law.
Odinism is now, quite categorically and specifically, covered and
protected by anti-discrimination legislation, in the same way that
has been taken for granted by other religions.

We Odinists have never needed any outside assurance that ours is a
true and genuine religion. That is something we know in our hearts,
and something we are taught by our nation's history. But many
Odinists, nonetheless, have craved a clear statement by judicial
authorities that our holy religion is and will be recognised in
English law. Thank the gods! Now we have it!
With sincere Odinist greetings!

Ralph Harrison
(Director)
_________________
Respectfully,

-Maurer



From here: http://www.wcer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

--- End forwarded message ---
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43991 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Avete Omnes Cives;

It is the wish of Christine Hawes, the young lady who was attacked,
to minimize this event, period, end of statement.

Valete Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43992 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
BS. And so what? The issue is not hers alone. If I had just been nearly
slaughtered like an animal at a Halal butcher shop I might be a little
scared to. I might want to minimize it as well. Who the hell wants to live
under a fatwa for the rest of their lives. However short that might be.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 5/25/06, S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
>
> Avete Omnes Cives;
>
> It is the wish of Christine Hawes, the young lady who was attacked,
> to minimize this event, period, end of statement.
>
> Valete Venator
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43993 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
Avete,

"So what..." quoth one of the replies.

"What" is the wish of the young woman who was attacked by a mugger to
drop the issue into the obscurity it deserves, as it has on the
Heathen/Odinist lists.

I have seen her own words about the incident.

She and 2 friends were coming out of a bar late at night. They
decided that it would be more prudent to walk, rather than to drive
impaired. A young punk decided they looked to be easy marks and used
a knife to strike an easy target; me - I'd go for the gut.

The Non-Citizen of Nova Roma say that the incident was blown way out
of proportion in the reporting and is quite cross with those who sent
out the initial reports.

The only epithet uttered during the attack was when the would-be
mugger called one of her friends a "n-gg-r," after being subdued and
held for the police.

There is a Saudi national in Halifax who does have it in for
Christine, but she watches very carefully for his presence, and
thereby has had no physical trouble from him.

The punk was a punk, no matter his forebears.

That is the What of the incident.

Valete - Venator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43994 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
---



Salve Domitius et Salvete Omnes:

I know you mean well,amice...


I don't want to sound harsh...but if we want to be a support and
friend to this lady, we will respect her wishes. The women was
ATTACKED (not yelling)...doesn't matter who the perpetrator
was...what religion, political climb...if any of that weighed into
his senseless act in the first place. All we can do is speculate,
and in the absence of proof, such remains speculation. And why
should he get all the publicity?

Please. To be attacked is, needless to say, a traumatic
event....but one with fangs. Its a personal, evil feeling, whatever
the reason for the attack..it is anger directed toward the victim
which usually the victim has not asked for. She perhaps doesn't
want the matter rehashed and rehashed on a list of 1000 persons.
That's another assault...not to be nasty but she does not NEED this
right now. Let's offer her our wishes, prayers and offerings, and
help her heal. She is asking that the issue be DROPPED. We don't
have to drop it in our hearts...but we can honour her wishes and
stop talking about it in public fora.,

Have I been attacked? Nope. Just had lots of clients who have
suffered this fate, and it's tough. And their friends were a great
influence on their recovery.


Sorry for the nagging amice, but the matter is nasty stuff.
Pompeia








In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
<marsvigilia@...> wrote:
>
> BS. And so what? The issue is not hers alone. If I had just
been nearly
> slaughtered like an animal at a Halal butcher shop I might be a
little
> scared to. I might want to minimize it as well. Who the hell
wants to live
> under a fatwa for the rest of their lives. However short that
might be.
> --
> >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> Tony Dah m
>
> Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
>
> On 5/25/06, S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
> >
> > Avete Omnes Cives;
> >
> > It is the wish of Christine Hawes, the young lady who was
attacked,
> > to minimize this event, period, end of statement.
> >
> > Valete Venator
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43995 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
M. Hortensia omnibus spd;
rather err on the side of religious freedom, I can tell you from my
own people's past. Better to go out into the streets in force &
worship Odin, the trees, Iuppiter O.P. than scuttle about afraid. I
won't do it.
M. Hortensia Maior
cultrix deorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43996 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-25
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
--- Salve Gn Salvius Astur Pontifex et Salvete Omnes:

With respect to the portion of your text recopied below, I'd like to
share some comments for the consideration of other Pontifices and
the populace:

You wrote:


I admit myself guilty of not properly keeping track of the sources I
have used to compile this draft. :-)

Pompeia: There is alot to keep track of.

****

You wrote:
If I recall correctly, this idea arose during a discussion with M.
Moravius Piscinus on the subject, as a solution to give the
pontifices
some input on who should be the next Pontifex Maximus - after all,
and
contrary to Ancient Rome, were almost anyone could be considered to
have the necessary knowledge on the Sacra Publica to be the next
Pontifex Maximus, this is not the case in Nova Roma, at least for the
moment being, so it doesn't seem a bad idea to have some input from
our main board of experts in Roman religion to know who should be the
next Pontifex Maximus.

Pompeia: I also agree with this reasoning. For the benefit of the
populace, and others could certainly add to this summary,in 104 BCE
the Lex Domitia Sacerdoti was passed to formally allow the election
of PM but the notion was entertained far earlier than this, to make
a long story short. I am not sure what procedure they initially
employed with this lex. I know that it was repealed by Sulla the
Dictator and reintroduced in a more modified form in 63 BCE. The
Modified elements seemed to be, atleast in part, that a 'shortlist'
of sorts was employed, or a 'qualified list'. And I think this is
where the CP could, and should IMO, have input into the most
promising candidates for PM, if need be.

I have a source that says the number on that short list was 2, but I
can't 'find' the primary source which backed up this
claim..'somewhere in Cicero'...and I know I saw it, but it comes
down to keeping track of the sources in discussing this stuff.
I 'do' know that Plutarch in the Life of Caesar and Seutonius in
his 'De Vita Caesarum' both agree that the number of candidates
Iulius Caesar competed with in the race for PM was 2...this would be
a total of three. Plutarch actually names them as Catalus and
Isauricus. In a more secondary source, Mrgaret Imber in Roman
Public Religion states that the candidates were 'elected from a list
of candidates offered by the Pontifices'.

If we want to change the shortlist to three, it would seem perfectly
historical to do so. And it would seem a reasonable number.

****


You wrote:

In any case, I am not adamant in that particular point. We could
increase the number of candidates in the shortlist, if you all think
that it is a good idea. Or even remove the shortlist altogether and
let the Comitia elect among the current pontifices - after all, they
*all* are supposed to be experts on the Sacra Public....
(accidental, incidental snippage, sorry)

Pompeia: You are quite right in my view that the Pontifices are all
more qualified in the matters of Sacra Publica than the average
citizens in NR, if I understand you correctly, but there are 10 of
them...another of my concerns is the potential of having alot of
runoff elections with a voting scenerio of 10 candidates for PM
elected by only 17 of 35 tribes, as per historical example. This
would give a poor representation, I fear, of the true voter choice
for PM....not to mention umpteen trips to the cista to vote.....
something like what we contended with regarding the Tribune
elections a few years back.

Thanks for your time and patience.

Valete
Pompeia Minucia Strabo









In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Salvius Astur"
<cn.salvius.astur@...> wrote:
>
> CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·QVIRITIBVS·S·P·D
>
> A. Apollonius scripsit:
>
> > Many thanks for this. I imagine most of us are still digesting
it, but since you've
> > kindly allowed me to see earlier drafts I have a bit of a head-
start.
>
> You could see earlier drafts because your help was vital to shape
this
> draft. :-)
> Thank you again for that.
>
> > In general I think this would be a tremendous improvement on the
current state of
> > affairs. For the most part it involves no real departure from
current practice, but it
> > would serve two important functions: one is to allow everyone,
including the
> > priests themselves, to have a clearer understanding of the
duties and processes
> > of the sacra publica; the other is that it would ensure that the
sacra publica
> > develop in a way which is substantially in line with ancient
practice.
>
> That is the idea, yes. To get us on firmer ground with respect to
the
> religious institutions of Nova Roma. To give a first (although
> necessarily large) step towards a historically accurate, fully
working
> Sacra Publica Romana. To restore the Pax Deorum.
>
> > You asked for comments on whether this document would be best as
a senatus
> > consultum, a lex, a decretum (I prefer the word used in your
draft, 'responsum',
> > which is more historical), or something else. My strong
preference would be for it
> > to be a responsum: a document approved and enacted by the
collegium
> > pontificum. The role of the collegium, historically, currently,
and in your proposal,
> > is to regulate the sacra publica, and regulating the sacra
publica is precisely
> > what this document would do, so it would make eminent sense for
the collegium
> > to be responsible for enacting it. Moreover, it would avoid the
constitutional
> > difficulties involved in having the comitia or the senate
legislate concerning the
> > sacra publica, which, as you know, is forbidden under at least
one common
> > interpretation of the lex constitutiva. It would be
significantly preferable from a
> > constitutional point of view, from a historical point of view,
and from the point of
> > view of maximum social and political harmony, for this document
to be adopted
> > voluntarily by our public religious institutions rather than
imposed upon them by
> > an outside body.
>
> I agree with you that, ultimately, this reform should be promoted
by
> the Collegium Pontificum - and that is being the case, after all. I
> intend to get the approval of the pontifices for every step. But I
am
> beginning to realize that, no matter what, some paragraphs of the
Lex
> Constitutiva will have to be ammended; otherwise, we risk the
danger
> of actually *contradicting* it, if not now, then in the future,
which
> would make this reform illegal.
>
> So I would say that any draft needs to pass through the pontifices,
> then the senatories, then the cives in the Comitia. I do not
consider
> the Senate or the Comitia "estraneous bodies" to the religious
> insitutions of the Res Publica - ultimately, and according to Roman
> tradition, it is part of the duties of the Senate to maintain the
> Sacra Publica.
>
> > This viewpoint also underlies my only two principal worries
about this document.
> > Both concern what appear to be attempts to make aspects of the
sacra publica
> > accountable or answerable to the comitia.
> >
> > One is merely a matter of vague wording. In chapter II.B of the
section 'de
> > quattuor summis collegiis' you say that "each collegium shall be
responsible in
> > front of the senate and the comitia for recruiting and providing
the means to
> > instruct prospective new members". It is far from clear to me
what exactly you
> > imagine when you picture the collegia being responsible "in
front of the senate
> > and the comitia", but it could be taken to mean that there
should be some formal
> > mechanism whereby the collegia must account to the senate and
the comitia,
> > as if submitting their acts for ratification or approval. This
would, of course, be
> > unhistorical and would very much undermine the autonomy of the
collegia. I think
> > perhaps this is not what you have in mind, but it would be well
to make that
> > clearer. If, as I suspect, what you mean is simply that the
collegia have this
> > responsibility and should remember that they exist to serve the
senatus
> > populusque Romanus by maintaining the pax deorum, then that is a
very true
> > sentiment, but perhaps it could be made clearer to avoid the
interpretation I'm
> > worried about.
>
> My intention, as you have interpreted correctly, is *not* to
propose
> that any act of the Quattuor Summa Collegia should be ratified by
the
> Senate or the Comitia -after all, the Quattuor Summa Collegia
should
> mainly be consultive boards of experts - but to make it clear
that, if
> the Quattuor Summa Collegia do not fulfill their duties, they are
> responsible in front of the SPQR.
>
> If you could suggest a way to spell this idea better than it is
> spelled now, I would be grateful.
>
> > The other matter is in the passage 'de collegio pontificum', in
chapter VII.E,
> > where you propose to allow the comitia to depose the pontifex
maximus. This is,
> > as I'm sure you know, totally unhistorical, and I think there is
(as there usually
> > is) a good reason why the Romans did not do it. To make the
pontifex maximus
> > vulnerable to deposition at any time by a popular vote would
radically politicize
> > the office, because its holder would know that he could be
removed from it at any
> > time if his popularity were to drop below 50%. The pontifex
maximus is
> > responsible for maintaining discipline among the other priests
of the sacra
> > publica, and may sometimes have to make unpopular decisions.
Many of the
> > best pontifices maximi have been unpopular at some points in
their careers - I
> > have in mind, for instance, P. Licinius Crassus and Q. Mucius
Scaevola. If the
> > pontifex maximus were vulnerable to deposition at any moment, he
would most
> > likely feel unable to make those unpopular decisions, and the
whole of the sacra
> > publica could suffer. Even ordinary magistrates, once elected,
know that they are
> > secure in office until the end of their term and can therefore
act boldly for the
> > good of the republic without worrying about the whim of the
electorate. The
> > pontifex maximus should not be put in a weaker position.
>
> You are right that this is a point I would rather change for a
better
> solution. I left it there to present this draft to you all, but I
> expected some debate and maybe some suggestions on how to deal with
> it.
>
> What I would like is to implement some accountability to the
office of
> the Pontifex Maximus. In our Res Publica, all magistrates have a
> limited time in office, and are accountable for their actions after
> the next election period. Under the system proposed by this draft,
the
> priests that conform the Collegium Pontificum would also be
> accountable through the Pontifex Maximus. But how can we make the
> Pontifex Maximus accountable? He is elected for life, so he doesn't
> have to fear elections. He has no one to answer to. What do we do
if
> we ever elect a Pontifex Maximus that does not fulfill his duty?
>
> Maybe giving the Comitia the power to depose the Pontifex Maximus
is
> not a good idea. Maybe we should make him accountable to the
Senate,
> but how? Should the Senate would be allowed to depose what
basically
> is a magistrate that has been elected through the Comitia?
>
> An alternative (and I am just throwing ideas around) could be that
the
> consules could impose fines to the Pontifex Maximus - or to any
> pontifex, for that matter - if they do not fulfill their duties;
> especially if that fine is supported by a senatus consultum.
>
> Do you have any other idea of how this could be done?
>
> > There's one final point. We know that the pontifex maximus was,
from the middle
> > republic onwards, elected by a special procedure, and you have
chosen that
> > option in this draft: that's fair enough. But in your draft he
is elected from a short
> > list - a very short list! - of two pontifices chosen by their
colleagues. I am almost
> > certain that this was not part of the historical procedure,
which was, I believe,
> > that the comitia could choose any pontifex except the newest
one. But there
> > may well be some evidence I don't know about, for this is not my
specialist area.
> > Have you found some evidence, or is this a deliberate departure
from the
> > historical system?
>
> I admit myself guilty of not properly keeping track of the sources
I
> have used to compile this draft. :-)
>
> If I recall correctly, this idea arose during a discussion with M.
> Moravius Piscinus on the subject, as a solution to give the
pontifices
> some input on who should be the next Pontifex Maximus - after all,
and
> contrary to Ancient Rome, were almost anyone could be considered to
> have the necessary knowledge on the Sacra Publica to be the next
> Pontifex Maximus, this is not the case in Nova Roma, at least for
the
> moment being, so it doesn't seem a bad idea to have some input from
> our main board of experts in Roman religion to know who should be
the
> next Pontifex Maximus.
>
> In any case, I am not adamant in that particular point. We could
> increase the number of candidates in the shortlist, if you all
think
> that it is a good idea. Or even remove the shortlist altogether and
> let the Comitia elect among the current pontifices - after all,
they
> *all* are supposed to be experts on the Sacra Publica.
>
> [...]
>
> > I hope those comments are of some help, if only in getting some
conversation
> > going. :)
>
> Your comments seem very helpful to me. Thank you for making
them. :-)
>
> S·V·B·E·E·V
>
> CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43997 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
Perhaps the revised explanation is the more accurate. Perhaps not. I tend
to be rather suspicious of these claims by authorities that appear to be a
PC whitewash. Remember that Muslim guy who attacked the El Al counter in
LA? How many years was it before the authorities finally admitted that it
was a religious hate crime against Jews. When the authorities lie by reflex
on these issues, you can hardly blame us, the little people, for distrusting
them.

I have to agree with Hortensia. Do not go quietly into that good night.

--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/25/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia omnibus spd;
> rather err on the side of religious freedom, I can tell you from my
> own people's past. Better to go out into the streets in force &
> worship Odin, the trees, Iuppiter O.P. than scuttle about afraid. I
> won't do it.
> M. Hortensia Maior
> cultrix deorum
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43998 From: Iulia Caesaris Cytheris Aege Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Salvete omnes!

I was asked to forward this info about the incident. please read.

'This woman, Christine Hawes in my religion was stabbed, but she were stabbed by someone associated with her. And the person tried to frame a guy from Saudi Arabia with the crime. The guy who did it has been banned from the group and criminal proceedings shall probably be enacted soon hopefully. Please tell Nova Roma not to spread this information around. It is inaccurate. The person who sent NR the information, Werner Von Otto has sent this info by mistake to several newsgroups and organizations and so I understand that he might have forgot to send out an update on the matter to Nova Roma. However, since he has obviously not, I am informing you and Nova Roma on Ms. Hawes behalf. The victim doesn't want to waste anymore time correcting this misinformation.'
- Ryan,
Konsul �sir, Denmark

valete,
Iulia Cytheris.
S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus <wend1066@...> wrote:
Avete Omnes Cives;

It is the wish of Christine Hawes, the young lady who was attacked,
to minimize this event, period, end of statement.

Valete Venator


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Legatus Internis Rebus Provincia Dacia.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 43999 From: Gnaeus Salvius Astur Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
CN·SALVIVS·ASTVR·QVIRITIBVS·S·P·D

I hope that nobody will mind me answering to different people on the
same message - it's simply to save time and bandwith.

Q. Caecilius Metellus scripsit

> I'm still digesting this myself, but I did want to propose one addition to
> the Scriptum de IV Summis Collegiis. I propose adding a section to this
> part which would allow the Collegium Pontificum to appoint members to a
> given collegium when such a collegium has less than three members.

I have been discussing this possibility with different citizens in
private, and I have to say that I agree that it is necessary to
provide for some mechanism to fill in those Collegia that do not have
at least three members. However, I do not think that this role should
be exercised by the Collegium Pontificum alone. See below on my
response to Piscinus what I think would be the best solution, both for
historical accuracy and from a practical point of view.

[...]

> That's all I have for the moment. Of course, I'm sure that I'll have more
> comments to add later, as I digest the rest of the proposal, but suffice it
> to say that I like what you've presented.

Thank you very much for your comments.

M. Moravius Piscinus scripsit:

> I don't think that the proposal of Pontifex Metellus is the best solution.
> Historically the four highest priestly collegia were independent of one another.

And were placed under the auctoritas of the Senate.

> No one individual could be a member of any more than one of the collegia,
> and no two people from the same family could be in any one
> collegium. A provision might be considered to add to Astur's
> proposal in order to represent this historical precedent as well.

I would like to have those two provisions. The second one - not having
two members of the same familia - could be implemented right away, but
the first one will be more difficult to implement. Currently, the only
two members of the Collegium Augurum are also members of the Collegium
Pontificum, and one of them has already expressed to me in private his
unwillingness to leave any one of those two positions in the future.
Which means that such a measure is likely to produce conflict, for the
moment being.

[...]

> Each collegium had its own area of expertise. When any religious
> issue arose it was the Senate that determined which collegium would
> best be consulted for advice. The priestly collegia should remain
> advisory boards alone. The pontifices and other sacredotes might be
> consulted and give their recommendations, but the Senate is best
> suited, and historically the most proper body, to decide on such an
> admistrative issue.

I couldn't agree more.

> It can be argued, as I have done in the past, that the highest
> religious authority in Roma antiqua was a comitia. [...] In theory
> therefore a comitia was the highest religious authority. In
> practice, tradition actually limited the role of a comitia. [...] The proposed reform
> offered by Pontifex Astur is one of an exceptional nature. It will necessarily have
> to go before a comitia eventually as it will involve a constitutional
> amendment.

That is also how I see it. By presenting it as a constitutional
ammendment, and by being approved by the Comitia, the structure of the
religious institutions of Nova Roma would receive the backup of the
sovereign authority in Roman terms - that of the People meeting in
assembly.

> For filling in the various collegia initially, I would recommend a
> three part process. Let all the members of the Collegium Pontificum
> offer their recommendations to the Senate on who might be adlected
> to the other collegia. Let the Senate select the choices for our
> first Epulones and Decemviri. Then allow the Comitia Populi Tributa
> to confirm the Senate's selections.

This suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. Its only drawback,
however, is that it might take some time to find six citizens willing
to serve *and* who have the kind of knowledge necessary to bring back
to life those two Collegia.

I think that I will add something along these lines:

"II. C. Should at any time one of the Quattuor Summa Collegia, excluding
the Collegium Pontificum, have less than three (3) members, the
following process shall be followed:

1. The members of the Collegium Pontificum shall issue a
responsum indicating their recommendations to the Senate on
who might be adlected to the other collegia.

2. The Senate shall appoint through a senatus consultum the
members necessary to reach three (3) members in the specific
collegium.

3. The consules shall call the Comitia Populi Tributa to order
to confirm the Senate's selections.

II.D. Should the Collegium Pontificum at any time have less than (3)
members, Senate shall appoint the members necessary to reach that
number, and the consules shall call the Comitia Populi Tributa to
order to confirm the Senate's selections."

> Another thing to consider in the long run is documentation of our
> priests and priestesses. The issue has been raised about providing
> our sacredotes with documents from Nova Roma to affirm their offices
> for legal purposes. Such documents will be needed in some states
> where a sacredos needs to apply for a license. The documents would
> have to be issued by the Senate, as it is the Board of Directors for
> Nova Roma, Inc. Astur's proposal will have each collegia coopting
> their new members, and also may eventually have the collegia
> appointing other sacredotes. Each collegia will eventually have to
> establish training programs for the various sacredotes. I would
> recommend that a provision be made in Astur's proposal that any
> sacredotes appointed by the various collegia must first complete a
> training program set up by the respective collegia, before the
> sacredotes could apply for documentation.

Although I agree in principle with what you are proposing, I think
that this draft is not the place to specify those details. Let each
collegium establish its own prerequisites concerning the training of
applicants.

Think, besides, that those documents you talk about would simply not
be valid outside the U.S., so this hardly qualifies as something to
include in a text that defines a general framework.

[...]

> So before we move on to this stage of development for the institutions
> of the religio Romana in Nova Roma, a development that is long
> overdue, we should consider and include what role the Senate will
> have with the various collegia. Astur's proposal considers some
> aspects in that relationship. My proposal above on filling in the
> collegia initially, and this one on how to issue documentation for
> our sacredotes, would in some measure go along with the historical
> relationship that existed between the Senate and collegia, and would
> help to better define what that relationship should be for Nova Roma
> in the future.

Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions, M. Moravi.

A. Apollonius Cordus scripsit:

[...]

> On the other side of the argument, and for the sake of public information, I
> should point out that in the old republic there was actually a convention that no
> collegium could co-opt any new member who was an inimicus (personal enemy)
> of any current member. This had the advantage of preserving a certain minimal
> level of internal harmony within the collegium and thus preventing it from
> becoming riven with the sort of internal politics which sometimes afflicted the
> republic's non-religious institutions. But it's equally true that when this rule was
> observed there were already more than three members of every collegium.

Besides, we would have to clearly specify what "inimicus" means in
that context. Do you mean that any current member should
singlehandedly have the right to veto any new adlection? That would
make incorporating new members to the Collegia extremely difficult
and, although it might work to promote harmony - and a lack of harmony
is not, in my opinion, a great issue so far - it might work against
incorporating the kind of experts we need to rebuild the Sacra
Publica.

> Another option, for the sake of argument, would be to have the first two members
> of any given collegium simply chosen by the pontifex maximus as he chooses
> Vestales and flamines. This is perhaps a less appealing option, though it has a
> slightly more historical flavour.

I think that Piscinus' proposal is better, because it helps to
maintain the independence of the different Collegia and it
reestablishes the role of the Senate as the highest responsible body
for the Sacra Publica.

[...]

> I can understand your worry about possible conflicts, or perceived conflicts, with
> the lex constitutiva, but I would hope that the magistrates and the populus would
> be willing to make the necessary changes to that document in order to
> accommodate this commendable project to make the sacra publica more
> historical, more transparent, and more effective.

That amounts to present a draft for a constitutional ammendment. Which
is what I already had in mind.

> The problem with having this text, or one like it, enacted, as you suggest, first by
> the pontifices, then by the senate, and then by the comitia, is that it will in many
> ways be the same as if it were enacted by the comitia to begin with. Once the
> comitia has enacted something as a lex, it can only be altered by another lex.
> Thus the collegium pontificum would almost immediately lose all control of the
> document.

So what? That is like to say that the consules have lost all control
over any law they present to the Comitia. Or that the fact that the
aediles' duties are defined through a law is working against them.

> It would be vulnerable to amendment or repeal by the comitia without the input of
> the pontifices; and, on the other hand, the pontifices would be unable to amend
> or repeal it without the consent of the comitia.

That is also the case with the current constitution and the way it
defines the religious institutions of Nova Roma.

> I can see no reason why this should be so. What you have in this text is, for the
> most part, a document concerning the internal regulations of the various collegia.
> There is really no good reason why the comitia or the senate should have any
> power to alter it or to forbid alterations to it. If it seems that some leges or
> senatus consulta might conflict with it, then an accommodation can surely be
> negotiated.

The Quattuor Summa Collegia were not (and should not be) aseptic
entities with no contact whatsoever with the outside world. The
Quattuor Summa Collegia are institutions set by the Res Publica to
serve the needs of the Res Publica concerning the relationship of Nova
Roma with the Immortal Gods. Their role is twofold: to provide advice
to the public institutions when such advice is requested and to make
sure that the Sacra Publica are performed correctly by priests and
magistrates alike - and to point it out to public attention if they
aren't.

I see no reason why the Quattuor Summa Collegia should not be defined
through a lex, like the rest of the institutions that conform the Res
Publica.

Should the law be ammended in the future, I am sure that the Quattuor
Summa Collegia will take a major part in how it is done, as their
auctoritas demands. In fact, this very same reform is coming from the
Collegium Pontificum. Should a reform of this law be attempted without
consulting the Collegium Pontificum and the Senate, I will be the
first one to call for the consules, the tribuni plebis and all other
magistrates to stop such a legislation until the opinion of Nova
Roma's board of experts on Roman religion has been heard.

> On the point about "responsibility in front of the senate and the comitia", perhaps
> you could say something like "for the good of the senate and the people, each
> collegium shall recruit and provide the means to instruct new members..."

If the Quattuor Summa Collegia are institutions set by the State to
serve the public, then they have a responsability towards the public.

> The matter of the accountability of the pontifex maximus is a difficult one. As
> you know, there is simply no historical solution: in the ancient republic a pontifex
> maximus could not be compelled to do his duty, merely subjected to pressure
> by the senate collectively and by the leading men of the state individually. To be
> honest I can't recall any pontifex maximus who was perceived as *needing* to be
> pressurized in this way. They all seem to have done the job to a greater or lesser
> extent.

The problem is that this wouldn't work in Nova Roma, were the pontifex
maximus could simply ignore those pressures, living many miles away
from other citizens.

> Of course one relevant point is that many people in Nova Roma expect too much
> from the pontifex maximus because they have a mistaken idea (reinforced, I fear,
> by the lex constitutiva) that the entire sacra publica form a pyramidal, monolithic
> hierarchy in which everyone is ultimately answerable to the pontifex maximus
> and the pontifex maximus is ultimately responsible for everything. This has no
> basis in ancient practice, as you know. It has never been the job of the pontifex
> maximus to provide inspirational leadership or to organize exciting projects. He
> is simply one among a number of pontifices, except that he has various
> additional sacral duties and also some disciplinary powers to make sure that
> other priests do their duties properly.

That is the key. The pontifex maximus has the disciplinary authority
over certain priests. That means that *he is responsible* if those
priests do not do their job properly - he should be disciplining them
into doing it. To paraphrase Peter Parker: "with power comes
responsibility".

But what happens if he doesn't discipline them? Or what happens if he
doesn't fulfill his other duties? Who disciplines *him*?

In fact, and although it is quite normal to focus the attention of the
debate upon the pontifex maximus, we shouldn't be doing it. There are
other priests that are not under the authority of the pontifex maximus
and that are, likewise, elected for life. What happens if the one of
the augures does not do his job properly? Or one of the decemviri
sacris faciundis?

We need some final resource, some way to allow the Res Publica to say:
"OK; so we adlected you as a decemvir sacris faciundis, but now you
are simply sitting there, doing nothing. If you are not going to do
anything, we will get you out of the job, and we will appoint a new
decemvir sacris faciundis in your place."

Even civil servants can be thrown out if they really, really try very
hard not to do their job. ;-)

[...]

> To allow the consules to impose fines on him would not be very desirable either.
> Of course in strict law the consules already can impose fines on him if they
> wish, because the consules have the power to impose fines on anyone they
> please, subject to appeal by provocatio. An appeal would, in effect, trigger a vote
> of confidence such as I mentioned, so it might be a round-about way of achieving
> the same result. But at any rate I don't think we should give the consules formal
> additional powers to fine the pontifex maximus specifically, in addition to their
> general power to impose fines on any citizen. It would effectively subjugate the
> pontifex maximus, the most powerful figure in the sacra publica, to the civil
> magistrates.

But it could be the solution while maintaining historicity.

Let us say that we have a decemvir sacris faciundis that does not
fulfill his duties. The consules could enact an edictum imposing a
monetary fine - although we would have to define better this
historical power of the consules, because, as far as I know, it is not
defined anywhere. That would leave our decemvir with two options:
either to comply to the consules' request or to demand protection from
the tribuni or the populus. If the tribuni and the Comitia deny such
demand - that is, if the consul is obviously right in fining that
person - the decemvir can only comply or face a process that would
ultimately expel him from Nova Roma.

The more I think about it, the more it convinces me. Thank you, Corde. :-)

> If we must have some formal mechanism, I would suggest simply making the
> office subject to regular re-election (or re-cooptation, if we decide to have the
> pontifex maximus co-opted rather than elected). The term of office should be as
> long as we could tolerate, so as to make him immune from political pressure as
> far as possible, and there should be restrictions on re-election as with civil
> magistrates.

After advocating for historical veracity so much on all the points
above, you'd prefer to depart this much from historical practice? :-)

I'd rather have the consules trying to impose a fine on rogue priests.
That seems more Roman to me.

[...]

> Finally, the very-short-list of two pontifices from which the comitia is to choose
> the pontifex maximus. Since neither of us can recall any historical basis for this,
> let's assume that it is a deliberate innovation. To be honest, I see no reason for
> it. The historical system, as far as I know, was that the comitia could vote for
> any pontifex except the newest one.

Let's do it that way, then. It does make sense to me.

Thank you, A. Apolloni, for your suggestions and comments.

S·V·B·E·E·V

CN·SALVIVS·T·F·A·NEP·OVF·ASTVR·SCRIPSIT
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44000 From: Chris Duemmel Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: (no subject)
Salvete,

Due to numerous calls upon my time, I can no longer in good consciousness
remain a citizen of this organization. As such, effective immediately, I
hereby renounce my citizenship of Nova Roma. Upon posting this final notice
to the lists I will unsubscribe myself and transfer ownership of the
Austrorientalis to Flavius Galerius Aurelianus as he is in the best position
to continue that list.

I wish you all the best of luck in pursuing the goals of the organization.

Vale,

Marcus Vitellius Ligus

//SIGNED//

Christopher Duemmel, Capt, CAP
FLWG Deputy Director of Aerospace Education
Administrative Officer, Jacksonville Composite Squadron
(904) 703-4396
CDuemmel@...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44001 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: A draft for reform of NR religious insitutions
A. Apollonius Cn. Salvio omnibusque sal.

Like you, I'll take in points from various different messages.

On the point about a short-list for the election of the pontifex maximus, Pompeja Minucia says she has a source on the matter, so we may as well wait until she finds it. I would say, however, that the fact that C. Caesar had only two competitors in his election does not tell us that three was the maximum size of the short-list, it only tells us that on that occasion only three pontifices put themselves forward. As I mentioned, it is obvious that a short-list will in practice be created by the fact that some pontifices will express and interest in being elected and others will rule themselves out, but it's a long way from there to a short-list of fixed size chosen by certain people. But let's wait and see what is said "somewhere in Cicero".

On the mode of adoption of the text, I must say respectfully that the fact that the proposed draft is compatible with the current lex constitutiva does not mean that the entire draft must be enacted by the comitia centuriata, as M. Moravius says. It simply means that some changes must be made to the lex constitutiva in order to enable the draft to be adopted in whatever form it eventually takes. Even if you decide to present it as a lex, I urge you in the strongest possible terms not to present the entire thing as a constitutional amendment as Piscinus suggests. That would more than double the length of the lex constitutiva, and would make the document incredibly tedious to amend. An ordinary lex would be perfectly adequate.

I said that having the text adopted as a lex would place it beyond the power of the pontifices and other priests to amend it. Your response - that this is true of the rules defining the powers of other magistrates &c. - is a very fair one, but it misunderstands the nature of my objection. I was not saying that there is something in principle wrong with having the duties and functions of the various collegia set out in law, merely that in practical terms it could be rather tiresome. These documents you've brought before us go into some fairly fine detail on some matters, including the specific rituals associated with the flamines for example, and these are the sort of thing which could quite easily need to be revised from time to time in light of experience and new research. It would be rather troublesome to have to go through an entire comitial process to do that. The populus at large is likely to have very little idea which priests should or should not preside over the
ovis idulis, and if it were found necessary to change that provision I cannot imagine that most voters would consider it a good use of their time to turn out and vote on it. If you are determined to have the more general parts of these documents adopted as leges, I would urge that you remove some of the finer details which are more likely to be subject to change, and have them adopted separately as simple responsa.

Lastly on this point, you say "I see no reason why the Quattuor Summa Collegia should not be defined
through a lex, like the rest of the institutions that conform the Res Publica". I think the simple answer is that we approach this from different angles. It's entirely true that most of the institutions of the republic are currently defined in leges, and when you start from that premise it is indeed perfectly logical that the sacra publica should be similarly defined. I start not from the premise of current practice but from the premise of ancient practice, and accordingly I would say that the institutions which are *currently* defined in leges should *not* be, and I see no reason to add new ones when we should really be going in the opposite direction. But my position is perhaps too idealistic for everyday politics. There are indeed good arguments on both sides, and I shan't fight on the beaches over the point.

Similarly I haven't any very strong views about the methods of choosing members for collegia which have fewer than three members. Your suggestion about the collegium making recommendations to the senate which are then ratified by the comitia is sound, though for my tastes a little over-complicated. Would it not be sufficient for the senate to make the appointments? If, as you propose, these texts are adopted as leges, then the populus will already have given its consent in advance by authorizing the senate to make the appointments, so there will be no question of a lack of comitial authority: appointments made by a process created by a lex are expressions of the will of the populus in the same way that verdicts given by courts created by a lex are.

We were discussing how to formulate the idea that the collegia have a moral but not a legal duty to the senatus populusque to keep themselves at full numerical strength, and I suggested saying "for the good of the senate and the people, each collegium shall recruit and provide the means to instruct new members..." You responded, "If the Quattuor Summa Collegia are institutions set by the State to
serve the public, then they have a responsability towards the public". I don't understand this response - are you saying that there is a problem with my suggestion, or are you simply making a general statement of truth unconnected with the previous conversation? I agree that they have this responsibility. The problem is that many people have an inadequate understanding of Roman law and will assume that when a legal text says "X has a responsibility" it follows that X must in some way be punished if he fails to fulfill that responsibility. This is why I advise against putting a sentence in your draft saying that the collegia have a "responsibility in front of the senate and the comitia". It will give people the impression that you intend the collegia to be legally accountable by some formal mechanism. You said that this wasn't the intention, and asked how you could re-phrase it to avoid that misunderstanding. I gave you my suggestion; your response sounds like a rejection of
the suggestion, but I don't understand why you are rejecting it because you haven't explained what's wrong with it.

As for disciplinary controls, you're quite right that the most historical method is simply to allow the consules and praetores to impose fines, using their normal powers. As I already said, which I think you missed, that would be perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned. What I think you must *not* do is to create special new powers for the consules and the praetores to do this specifically in relation to the pontifex maximus. That would be just as much a departure from historical practice as anything anyone else has suggested. The consules and praetores already have this power. You don't need to spell it out in any text. All you need to do is return that part of your proposal to the previous version which simply said that the pontifex maximus holds his post for life and cannot be removed from it except by his own resignation.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44002 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: a.d. VII Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VII Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"The coming dawn will hide Bootes from your sight,
And next day the constellation of Hyas will be seen." - Ovid, Fasti V

"The Egyptians hold solemn assemblies not once a year, but often. The
principal one of these and the most enthusiastically celebrated is
that in honor of Artemis at the town of Boubastis." - Herodotus,
Histories 2.59

"Typhon felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods
could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos
(Egypt) ... When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation
into animal forms ... Artemis a cat." - Antoninus Liberalis,
Metamorphoses 28

"O daughter of Helios, Mene of many turnings, nurse of all! O Selene,
driver of the silver car! If thou art Hekate of many names, if in the
night thou doest shake thy mystic torch in brandcarrying hand, come
nightwanderer ... If thou art staghunter Artemis, if on the hills thou
dost eagerly hunt with fawnkilling Dionysos, be thy brother's helper
now!." - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 44.198

"The name Apollo is Greek; they say that he is the Sun, and Diana
they identify with the Moon ... the name Luna is derived from lucere
`to shine'; for it is the same word as Lucina, and therefore in our
country Juno Lucina is invoked in childbirth, as is Diana in her
manifestation as Lucifera (the light-bringer) among the Greeks. She is
also called Diana Omnivaga (wide-wandering), not from her hunting, but
because she is counted as one of the seven planets or `wanderers'
(vagary). She was called Diana because she made a sort of Day (Dia) in
the night-time. She is invoked to assist at the birth of children,
because the period of gestation is either occasionally seven, or more
usually nine, lunar revolutions, and these are called menses (months),
because they cover measured (mensa) spaces." - Cicero, De Natura
Deorum 2.27

Today is held in honor of the goddess Diana, whom the Greeks new as
Artemis. The Roman goddess of nature, fertility and childbirth. She
is closely identified with the Greek goddess Artemis. Diana is also a
moon-goddess and was originally worshipped on the mountain Tifata near
Capua and in sacred forests (such as Aricia in Latium). Her priest
lived in Aricia and if a man was able to kill him with a bough broken
from a tree in this forest, he would become priest himself 1. Also
torch-bearing processions were held in her honor here. Later she was
given a temple in the working-class area on the Aventine Hill where
she was mainly worshipped by the lower class (plebeians) and the
slaves, of whom she was the patroness. Slaves could also ask for
asylum in her temple. Diana was originally a goddess of fertility
and, just as Bona Dea, she was worshipped mainly by women as the giver
of fertility and easy births. Under Greek influence she was equated
with Artemis and assumed many of her aspects. Her name is possibly
derived from 'diviana' ("the shining one"). She is portrayed as a
huntress accompanied by a deer. Diana was also the goddess of the
Latin commonwealth.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Statius, Herodotus, Nonnus, Antoninus Liberalis, Cicero, Wikipedia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44003 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re:
Salve Marce Vitelli,

> Due to numerous calls upon my time, I can no longer in good consciousness
> remain a citizen of this organization. As such, effective immediately, I
> hereby renounce my citizenship of Nova Roma.

We see such statements as yours occasionally - but there is really no need
to renounce your citizenship. You do not need to actively participate in
the mailing list, provincial events, or anything else to remain a citizen;
all that is required is that you reply to the census emails once every
two years. It is permissible - and not at all shameful - to become
inactive and unsubscribe from the list, yet remain on our citizen lists;
you can then choose to begin fully participating again at any time, without
having to reapply or go through any bureaucratic processes.

There is a nine-day waiting period for resignations. You can cancel your
resignation at any time during this period, but if you take no action we
will remove you after nine days.

Vale,
M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.


--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44004 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
I'm being kind of legalistic here (come to think of it, that's Roman,
isn't it?) but assault with a deadly weapon is a criminal offense, not a
civil tort. The public prosecutor decides whether the matter will be
taken any further. We can only hope that the victim's wishes are
respected.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44005 From: P. Dominus Antonius Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
OK. I'm confused. Which one is the "real" story now?
1) Muslim radical on jihad.
2) Muslim criminal looking to score.
3) Non-Muslim associate who tries to frame a poor Muslim.
Perhaps because of the grammar, I'm not sure which this email is saying is
the correct information and which is the misinformation.
--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


On 5/26/06, Iulia Caesaris Cytheris Aege <cytheris_aege@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes!
>
> I was asked to forward this info about the incident. please read.
>
> 'This woman, Christine Hawes in my religion was stabbed, but she were
> stabbed by someone associated with her. And the person tried to frame a guy
> from Saudi Arabia with the crime. The guy who did it has been banned from
> the group and criminal proceedings shall probably be enacted soon hopefully.
> Please tell Nova Roma not to spread this information around. It is
> inaccurate. The person who sent NR the information, Werner Von Otto has sent
> this info by mistake to several newsgroups and organizations and so I
> understand that he might have forgot to send out an update on the matter to
> Nova Roma. However, since he has obviously not, I am informing you and Nova
> Roma on Ms. Hawes behalf. The victim doesn't want to waste anymore time
> correcting this misinformation.'
> - Ryan,
> Konsul �sir, Denmark
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44006 From: Brutus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed/ Royal Mail Odinist
Salve Hortensia!

With regards to the judgment re Royal mail, I was quite struck by this as I am an employee of the Company and have been for several years. The company in general is keen to be seen as tolerant of different cultures and employs very large numbers of people of Asian descent - Muslim, Hindu and Sikh. The establishment of rooms dedicated for worship by members of these and other faiths is, on the whole, an indication that at least efforts are being made where only a few years ago they were not. The existence of native pagan religions of Celtic, Latin and Germanic origin is however something that often escapes notice and, as in this case, can cause some consternation on the part of our (not very well educated) managers. The fact is for a very long time we have operated under the radar and they are always surprised to find us here among them and not just living in teepees on Salisbury Plain. There is also a very strong secular streak in British society which disapproves of ALL
public expressions of religious faith (I'm excluding Northern Ireland here which is a world all of its own). I remember chatting to an American Mormon missionary some years ago who told me that the strangest thing about being in Britain was that so many people seemed to have no religious beliefs at all. Of course she was wrong - it is just not considered good manners to talk about religion. This may be a result of a heritage of religious wars and a simple common sense decision not to provoke the inevitable arguments. Oddly enough allowances do seem to be made for non-whites hence the prayer rooms.

Still, progress is being made. The new anti-religious hatred laws designed to diffuse anti-Muslim sentiment have also been used to prevent Evangelical Christians from picketing Pagan gatherings and exhibitions. Back inside Royal Mail we have all been made to sit through endless tedious but well-meaning 'diversity' lectures and videos in an attempt to change the dominant chauvinistic attitudes towards women, gays and members of ethnic minorities. I can only hope that this ruling will result in similar respect being afforded to British Pagans. In the meantime I just might copy it and pin it up on the Union notice board!

Vale!

Brutus

Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
-M. Hortensia omnibus spd;
Eheu, I forgot about this manner of killing, on
reflection I think you are right and we should be concerned. Over at
the Italian forum SaturniaTellus, somone posted a win by an Odinist
employee of the Royal Mail in Britian. The issue? He used
the 'multicultural prayer' room that the Muslims used. And the
Muslims and the RM did not appreciate this!
The upshot was a court judge declared Odinism a legal religion.
(yes Europe is terribly behind on the concept of religious freedom &
recognition). I take this as a wake-up call that all pagans should
be as public as possible! And to fight for legal recognition by the
EU.
valete
M. Hortensia Maior

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
<marsvigilia@...> wrote:
>
> Under Islamic law Christians and Jews are considered "People of
the Book",
> and are therefor accorded some minimal rights. Pagans are
accorded none at
> all. If you think living with a Christian majority is unpleasant,
you are
> going to love living under Muslims ascendant.
> --
> >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> Tony Dah m
>
> Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
>
>
> On 5/25/06, dicconf <dicconf@...> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with A. Claudius Priscus' feeling that this should not be
> > minimized. Maybe it _was_ just a fumbled effort at murder-to-
rob (as if
> > that were trivial, nowadays), but cutting the veins in the neck
is the
> > correct procedure for _halal_ -- Muslim ritual killing. See the
notorious
> >
> > case of Theo van Gogh, who was shot and then halaled. That's
how you make
> >
> > sure an _animal_ is dead and bled out, if you're an observant
upholder of
> > Islam.
> >
> > -- Publius Livius Triarius
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44007 From: Shadow DarkFyre Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Stranded - SOS
Stranded outside of Indianapolis on exit 130 at the TA. If anyone would like to stop by and say hello, would appreciate the company. I'm the guy in the red station wagon

-Shadow


There's magick in believing...
-The Domain and Realms
http://thedomainandrealms.batcave.net


__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44008 From: Stefanie Beer Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbe
Salve Publi Livi Triari,
excuse me if I may seem a bit daft, but what does the official prosecution
of a crime - which will go on anyway - have to do with the victim´s wish
that her case should not be discussed by thousands of people on the net????
Respectfully,
Lucia Flavia Lectrix

-------Originalmeldung-------

Von: dicconf
Datum: 05/26/06 18:11:53
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...

I'm being kind of legalistic here (come to think of it, that's Roman,
isn't it?) but assault with a deadly weapon is a criminal offense, not a
civil tort. The public prosecutor decides whether the matter will be
taken any further. We can only hope that the victim's wishes are
respected.

-- Publius Livius Triarius



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44009 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: I'm campaigning for flamen of Portunus
Salvete!

I'm campaigning for flamen of Portunus. I've made three choice
locations in Ames, Iowa, into inconspicuous, but public, shrines to
Portunus, by means of inconspicuous, but public and visible, offerings
placed there. I also made a shrine to Mithra once in another city
(see post above), and once distributed almost 200 leaflets for Nova
Roma at my university, mostly on bulletin boards.

I'll email photos of my shrines to any Roman who emails me. Please
contact your Roman friends and ask them to support me for flamen!

Vale,
Appius Claudius Priscus, citizen of Nova Roma, assiduus, plebeian
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44010 From: S Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: Odinist woman stabbed; seems religion-related
Avete omnes;

Ryan's native language is Dansk not English, but I think he writes
well. Then again, I've been reading his posts for a few years now.

It looks to me that the last word on this incident is; Christine Hawes
was atttacked by a former associate, who then tried to frame a Saudi
with whom Christine has real differences.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44011 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Re: I'm campaigning for flamen of Portunus
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Appio Claudio Prisco salutem dicit

There is no campaigning for Flamen, or any other priesthood at the moment.
Priestly appointments are, currenlty, decided by the Collegium Pontificum
and the only support that will serve your cause is support from the
Pontifices.

Just clarifying how the process works.

Vale;

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
Consul - Pontifex - Augur - Flamen Pomonalis

On 5/26/06, appiusclaudiuspriscus <appiusclaudiuspriscus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> I'm campaigning for flamen of Portunus. I've made three choice
> locations in Ames, Iowa, into inconspicuous, but public, shrines to
> Portunus, by means of inconspicuous, but public and visible, offerings
> placed there. I also made a shrine to Mithra once in another city
> (see post above), and once distributed almost 200 leaflets for Nova
> Roma at my university, mostly on bulletin boards.
>
> I'll email photos of my shrines to any Roman who emails me. Please
> contact your Roman friends and ask them to support me for flamen!
>
> Vale,
> Appius Claudius Priscus, citizen of Nova Roma, assiduus, plebeian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44012 From: Legion XXIV Date: 2006-05-26
Subject: Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta Newsletter May 2006
VICESIMA QUARTA
The Newsletter of
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA

MAY 2006

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Praefectus - Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
610-353-4982
legionxxiv@... www.legionxxiv.org

Commilitones:

ADVENAE - Newcomers
*** Zachery Karenchak Clovius pa_bucktail_42nd@... has signed-on from Saint Marys in northeast PA. He has Civil War and French & Indian reenacting exposure and has had a long desire to get involved with the ancient Roman military.
We look forward to having him with us during our future campaigns.

MARCHING THRU TIME AFTER-ACTION
This event was quite soggy. After several rain-free weekends, Mother Nature decided to make up for it on MTT Weekend!! Your Commander and faithful medicus Brian Mackey arrived on Saturday and for a time debated to even get the gear out of the car or set-up the tent. However, not wanting to give the impression that Rome was "Wimping-Out" we finally decided to set-up the tent, hoping that things would improve on Sunday allowing the wet tent to dry-out. The gear was moved into the tent and there it stayed all-day Saturday. Later faithful Quintus Johansen appeared for duty and all of us did our duty talking to the few courageous public who dared the elements to come see how Rome endured in the inclement weather.
Saturday was gray and drizzly with some heavier rain late on Saturday. On Sunday the weather was better, with a few instances of copious dew and light drizzle. The Engine of Terror catapulta was subjected to field trials after its recent upgrades and performed well. A minor problem with the trigger and ratchet gear developed and has since been corrected. With the threat of late afternoon storms, it was decided to end the event an hour early in order to let people pack and leave before the expected severe weather arrived, and of course it became sunnier and hotter all afternoon!, but no one complained about wrapping things up early. Thanks to those who drove long distance and turned-out in less than perfect conditions to support the Legion and heritage of ancient Rome.

ROMAN DAYS JUNE 3 - 4 = ALL ROME !! - ALL DAY !!
Marietta Mansion is the place, and as Matt Amt of Legion XX says "Romans from all over the solar system are planning to come". Are YOU coming from your local quadrant of the Galaxy. Please let the Commander know legionxxiv@... when you will be arriving at the Marietta Mansion docking bay at 5626 Bell Station Road, Glendale, MD 20769
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rdays.html
The event is open to the public from 10 AM to 4 PM on Saturday and Sunday. Admission is $4 for adults and $2 for students. The schedule of activities will be pretty much the same as in past years, and can be found on the web pages.
Plans are still taking shape for the lunch and Saturday night feast and other foods. The Caupona will be offering the usual meal plan this year and some munchies will probably be available for participants at reasonable costs. In any case there may be a modern food vendor and there are grocery stores and various eateries very nearby. The Commander will have the usual legionary fare of figs, dates and apricots available for snacks.
One addition to the schedule is an informal gathering on Friday evening beginning about 5 PM. This will include set-up, hopefully some drill practice for any troops that show up, and a potluck supper--bring some eats to share!
Roman Days is one the major events Legion XXIV takes part in and it is hoped that as many of you as possible will take part
To catch all the final details, join the Roman Days Planning Yahoo group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/romandays/ , or contact Deb Fuller at romandays@....


TAKE A WALK ON THE BOARDWALK - JUNE 3 - 4
Again a reminder that Keith Egan, fundraising walk chairperson for the annual conference for the Rotary District 7640 (southern New Jersey) is looking for some legionaries for an event scheduled for June 3-4 of 2006, which is also the weekend of Roman Days in Maryland. However, If you are not planning to be at Roman Days and would like to "Take a Walk on the Boardwalk" as a Roman legionary with Caesar and Cleopatra, please read-on and contact Keith at kcegan2@... or 609-347-1087 www.southjerseyaidsalliance.org
The conference is to be held in Atlantic City and Keith is looking to make the beginning of the fundraising walk as spectacular and entertaining as the city can offer. One suggestion that has been made is to have the actors who portray Caesar and Cleopatra and their retinue at Caesar's Hotel Casino start off the walk that will ultimately end near their casino location. Keith would like to add a troop of legionaries in formation to approach the spectacle that is wanted and help to generate the kind of enthusiastic response from walkers that will help them to earn significant funds for the Rotary Foundation. If you are not familiar with the foundation, it is an international philanthropic fund that is used to support humanitarian projects across the globe. Some of the types of projects that have been implemented include support for inoculations against infectious diseases; orphanages and schools; and fresh water system development in third world countries in addition to supporting a wide range of programs and services (e.g., literacy and nutrition programs for needy children) throughout the United States each year.

CALL TO ARMS IN MANHATTAN JUNE 21 - 22
The Legion has been contacted about participating in a promotional event for the "launch" of the Praetorian Insurance Company in Manhattan New York. They want six legionaries to march in a procession during the day and for an evening promo event on Thursday, June 22. The tentative schedule has us turning-out at 6AM to be in Rockefeller Center for the "Good Morning America" Show and then a procession to and through Times Square, ending about 11AM. We would then be released on our own until the evening when we would take part in a promotional event to Meet & Greet, pose for pictures act as a honor guard and otherwise display the Glory of Ancient Rome. Remuneration for our participation is being offered, along with overnight accommodations on Wednesday night and probably Thursday night. Our allied Legions (XX, III, VI, IX, XXX, Ludus Magnus, ???) in the Northeast and Canada would be most welcome to join with us, as was done for the History Channel Roman Engineering photo shoot. Final details are still being worked-out. Please! - Let me know if you may be able to take part - legionxxiv@... I can personally attest that doing a promotion in downtown Manhattan and Times Square! - is truly an awesome experience and one you will not soon forget! So, if you have any interest in doing this event, talk to your boss Now to maybe get the day off on June 22nd.

LEGIO XXX EVENT JULY 15-16 IN ONTARIO
Our allied Legion XXX in Ontario is sponsoring a Roman event on July 15,16 near the town of Tillisonburg, about mid-way between Hamilton and London, Ontario. Go to www.geocities.com/romanlegionxxx (look under "events") for more details. Your Commander cannot attend, but Legion XXIV legionaries are encouraged to support Legion XXX at this event. This would be a natural for our allied New England Legions and troopers and Robert Norton, Servius Rustius Noricus, Centurio of Legio XXX V.V. would welcome your participation.
The event will be held at a brand new site with large amounts of land. It is a primitive site with flat ground and wooded areas away from the public.
They have grand plans to eventually build a fort if they can get some backing from the government. It is hoped the facility will become the training area for both legions.
It will include an archery ranch, a pila range, a sling range, artillery range, and a parade/drill square. The fort will contain actual barracks, headquarters building and a functional workshop.
This will be Legio XXX's first event on the new site and part of the agenda includes building 10 yards of trench at the location of the eventual fort.
If any of your members would like to attend they would be most welcome.
Vale
Servius Rustius Noricus (Robert Norton)
Centurio
Legio XXX V.V.

52 BC STYLE BATTLE IN ROME NY ??
The following was received from Justine Jones justine@...
His firm is interested in staging a massive reenactment of a 52 BC-style battle in Rome, NY in mid-August. Rome is n/w of Utica, east of Syracuse, north of the NY Thruway and would be a natural event for our allied Legions in the Northeast and Canada.
Your Commander cannot be there due his sojourning in Texas and the Mid-West throughout August.
If you are interested in "mixing it up" in what appears to be a "full contact" combat event, talk to Justine. Since this is a Late Republic era event, segmentata and Imperial type helmets and swords would be "out of period". However, this may not be a problem with Justine.

FORT # 4 TIME LINE EVENT OCT 14 -15 CHARLESTOWN, NH
From Eric Jadaszewski, jrjada@..., "Just wanted to let everyone know about our 2nd annual Time Line event at the Fort at No. 4 in Charlestown, NH on Oct 14, 15, 2006. The fort is a very reenactor friendly site, scenic, good facilities and always a lot of fun. Legion XXIV as well as the other Northeast legions will be there. Put this one on your calendar!

EVENTS ELSEWHERE IN THE ROMAN WORLD
From Sean Richards of Legio IX Hispana: July 8-9 Old Fort Mac Arthur Days, a military timeline event, Los Angeles, California. And they want to extend an invitation to those who'd like to attend as their guests. The site is an old shore battery in a park that overlooks the Pacific Ocean, weather has always been mild in the past. They will provide tent space and meals and can usually help with transport from LAX or Ontario CA. Leg IX begins set up on Thursday, July 6. Old Ft Mac Days webpage,
http://fortmacarthur.tripod.com/index.html http://fortmacarthur.tripod.com/index.html>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hello from across the seas. My name is Patrick Townsend and I am a Saxon/Norman re-enactor from England. What I am contacting you for is to ask if your group would be interested in coming over here on a new package holiday that I organize strictly for re-enactors/living history. "The package contains: Flights, visits to the sites of the most spectacular Roman, Viking, Saxon and Norman sites such as Hadrian's Wall, Holy Island, Durham, York (Jorvik), Hastings, etc. You will be staying in a 5 star hotel but that's not all, I will arrange for you to stay with an English re-enactment group for a weekend, in authentic tents, eating authentic food and most important having a good drink among friends, and you may be able to take part in a battle that happened on the exact site hundreds of years ago. "If you are interested then please contact me for more details,
tours@... , http://www.padraigs.co.uk/tours.asp

DEEPEEKA TAKING NOTE OF OUR CONCERNS
Matt Amt of Leg-XX has advised that Gagan Agarwal of Deepeeka Exports in India joined the Roman Army Talk board not long ago, with the idea of gathering feedback on how to improve his company's Roman products. In fact the RAT board now has a forum section dedicated to discussing Deepeeka, http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewforum.php?f=41 Needless to say, Gagan has gotten a LOT of feedback, and it is bearing fruit. Not surprisingly, there is an emphasis on helmets, and the first Deepeeka helmet to be improved is the ever-popular Gallic G. The new edition looks GREAT! All the flaws and errors we've been noting for years have been fixed. Note that the catalog number for this version is AH6052N--be sure to include the "N" to avoid getting the old version.
Here is the discussion on this helmet: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=7378
The Italic D helmet and many other items are also being worked on, so look for a wider variety of "approved" products over the next several months. Deepeeka has been sent a large pack of photocopies and notes, covering a number of different things.
As usual, you cannot buy directly from Deepeeka unless you are a retailer making bulk purchases. Order from one of the recommended vendors on the Legio XXIV Suppliers page www.legionxxiv.org/supplierlinks. Also bear in mind that Deepeeka does not stock anything, but only produces what their vendors order. So there may be some delay in getting the new improved gear if Deepeeka has to wait until a certain number of items are ordered. Patience - We are finally getting there! Thank you, Gagan, for wanting to improve your product and for listening to us.

NEW E-MAIL GROUP FOR GLADIATORIAL COMBAT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LudusGladiatoriusLA/


UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS for LEGION XXIV and OTHER EVENTS for 2006

*** June 3 - 4 Roman Days, Marietta Mansion, Glenn Dale, MD or Walk on the Boardwalk in A.C.

*** June 22 Roman presence in Manhattan for Praetorian Insurance Co. 7AM - 11AM & 6PM - 10PM

*** June 17 - 18 Muster on the Maumee, Fort Meigs, Perrysburg, Ohio

*** July 15 - 16 Leg-XXX Encampment, Tillisonburg, ONT

*** August 5 - 6 Time Line Event, Fort Malden, Amherstburg, Ontario

*** Sept 30 Outdoor Lecture-Demo, Dickenson Col, Carlisle, PA 12N - 2PM

*** Oct 14 - 15 Time Line Event, Fort No.4, Charlestown, NH


Thanking you for your continued support of Legion XXIV, I remain;

Yours in the Bonds of Ancient Rome

Gallio / George




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44013 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-05-27
Subject: Nundinal Calendar, a.d. VI Kal. Iun. to pr. Non. Iun
Q. Caecilius Metellus Omnibus salutem.

I hope everyone is well and happy! Below is the calendar for the coming
nundinum. As always, your questions, comments, concerns, and otherwise are
certainly welcomed.

27 a.d. VI Kal. Iun. C F
28 a.d. V Kal. Iun. D C
29 a.d. IV Kal. Iun. E C
30 a.d. III Kal. Iun. F C
31 pr. Kal. Iun. G C

IVNIVS

1 Kal. Iun. H N
2 a.d. IV Non. Iun. A F Ater
3 a.d. III Non. Iun. B C
4 pr. Non. Iun. C F

Valete Bene!

Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
Pontifex
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44014 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-27
Subject: a.d. VI Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VI Kalendas Iunius; haec dies fastus est.

"The coming dawn will hide Bootes from your sight,
And next day the constellation of Hyas will be seen." - Ovid, Fasti V

"When darkening twilight ushers in the night, the whole flock of
Hyades is revealed. Taurus' face gleams with seven rays of fire, which
Greek sailors call Hyades from their rain-word. To some they were the
nurses of Bacchus, to others granddaughters of Tethys and old Oceanus.
Atlas did not shoulder the load of Olympus yet, when lovely,
eye-catching Hyas was born. Oceanus' daughter, Aethra, bore him and
the Nymphae in timely births, but Hyas was born first. While his beard
was fresh, stags trembled in terror before him, and the hare was
welcome prey. But when years matured his manhood, he breavely closed
with the shaggy lioness and the boar. He sought the lair and brood of
the whelped lioness and was bloody prey to the Libyan beast. His
mother sobbed for Hyas, his sad sisters sobbed and Atlas, whose neck
would haul the world. The sisters surpassed both parents in pious love
and won heaven. Their name is from Hyas." - Ovid, Fasti V

"Hermippus, who wrote about the stars, says that Ceres lay with
Iasion, son of Thuscus. Many agree with Homer that for his he was
struck with a thunderbolt. From them, as Petellides, Cretan writer of
histories, shows, two sons were born, Philomelus and Plutus, who were
never on good terms, for Plutus, who was richer, gave nothing of his
wealth to his brother. Philomelus, however, compelled by necessity,
bought two oxen with what he had, and became the inventor of the
wagon. So, by plowing and cultivating the fields, he supported
himself. His mother, admiring his invention, represented him plowing
among the stars, and called him Bootes. From him they say Parias was
born who called the people Parians and the town Parion from his own
name." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.4

"But Zeus made them [the sisters of Hyas] into the stars which are
called Hyades." - Hesiod, Astronomy Fragment 2 (from Scholiast on
Aratus 254)

"Atlas by Pleione or an Oceanid had twelve daughters, and a son, Hyas.
The son was killed by a wild boar or a lion, and the sisters, grieving
for him, died of this grief. The five of them first put among the
stars have their place between the horns of the bull - Phaesyla,
Ambrosia, Coronis, Eudora, Polyxo - and are called, from their
brother's name, Hyades." - Hyginus, Fabulae 192

"The Pleiades were so named, according to Musaeaus, because fifteen
daughters were born to Atlas and Aethra, daughter of Oceanus. Five of
them are called Hyades, he shows, because their brother was Hyas, a
youth dearly beloved by his sisters. When he was killed in a lion
hunt, the five we have mentioned, given over to continual lamentation,
are said to have perished. Because they grieved exceedingly at his
death, they are called Hyades. The remaining ten brooded over the
death of their sisters, and brought death on themselves; because so
may experienced the same grief, they were called Pleiades. Alexander
says they were called Hyades because they were daughters of Hyas and
Boeotia, Pleiades, because born of Pleio, daughter of Oceanus, and
Atlas." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.21

Some say that Bootes is the most ancient constellation in the sky.
Indeed, it has been reconized by numerous cultures in slightly
different forms. Even the Greeks were not clear on its history. The
first reference to the name Bootes comes from "The Odyssey" by Homer
almost three millenia ago.

In one of his most popular incarnations, he is called the Hunter and,
with his Hounds (Canes Venatici), he eternally circles the Bears, Ursa
Major and Ursa Minor, around the North Pole. In fact, the brightest
star in Bootes is Arcturus, which can be loosely translated as "Bear
Guard." He is also called the Herdsman and his journey around the
pole represents his task of keeping the celestial beasts together.

Another legend says that Bootes was the son of Zeus and Callisto. Hera
changed Callisto into a bear who was almost killed by Bootes when he
was out hunting. Luckily, she was rescued by Zeus and he took her into
the sky where she is now Ursa Major, the Great Bear. And yet another
myth says that he was the son of Demeter, the goddess of agriculture.
Supposedly he was given a place in the sky for inventing the plow.

Hyas was a daimon of seasonal rains, brother of the Hyades (Starry
Rain Nymphs), and a son of the firmament-bearing Titan Atlas.
As a young boy he was killed in the wilds by a lion. The gods then set
him amongst the stars as the Constellation Aquarius, along with the
lion Leo, and his five mourning sisters the Hyades. Aquarius and Leo
never share the sky at the same time, one sets as the other rises.
He was probably identified with Hylas, the young lover of Herakles who
dissappeared when he was sent to fetch water.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Hesiod, Hyginus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44015 From: rocknrockabilly Date: 2006-05-27
Subject: Worship to the gods
Salve,

I am asking to the priests of Nova Roma or any citizen familiar with
it. How do we perform rituals to the gods, particularly to Venus? Do
the ceremonies necessarly involve a priest, or can each individual
worship the gods individually? How does one recite a prayer?

Gratias et vale,

T. Africanus Secundus Flamin.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44016 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rocknrockabilly" <franceuropa@...>
wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> I am asking to the priests of Nova Roma or any citizen familiar with
> it. How do we perform rituals to the gods, particularly to Venus? Do
> the ceremonies necessarly involve a priest, or can each individual
> worship the gods individually? How does one recite a prayer?
>
> Gratias et vale,
>
> T. Africanus Secundus Flamin.
>

Salve!

Have you looked at
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/rites_and_rituals.html ?

That would be a good place to start.

Optime vale

M. Lucretius Agricola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44017 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
> Salve,
>
> I am asking to the priests of Nova Roma or any citizen familiar with
> it. How do we perform rituals to the gods, particularly to Venus? Do
> the ceremonies necessarly involve a priest, or can each individual
> worship the gods individually? How does one recite a prayer?

I suggest starting with a Lararium, a household shrine. You can see
an ancient and a modern Lararium at:

http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lararium

(and I encourage others to upload photos of their Lararia there!)

I performed a Lararium ritual at my university recently, in front of a
captive audience of about seventy students, offering bread and wine
and reciting prayers in Latin that had been researched by
Marcus Moravius Piscinus Horatianus. A google search for
"Lararium Ritual" can find these.

Vale, Octavius.

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44018 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re:
A. Apollonius M. Octavio omnibusque sal.

Scripsisti:

> There is a nine-day waiting period for resignations. You can cancel your
resignation at any time during this period, but if you take no action we
will remove you after nine days. <

I believe (though I may be wrong, because our relevant legislation is still in a somewhat confused state) that this is no longer correct.

The lex Minucia Moravia de civitate ejuranda was passed early this month (I'm looking at message number 901 in the archives of the "Announce" list for the announcement of the result; the text of the lex is at message 889 in the same). It abolished the nine-day waiting-period (chapter I) and provided that a resignation is effective if notified to the censores "transmitted in writing via any available means", which presumably includes publication in this forum (chapter II.A).

Since this is (apparently) the first outing of the new lex, I hope you'll allow me to do a quick canter around the legal implications.

There are a couple of points of interpretation. First, is it effective at the time of dispatch or the time of receipt? The wording is unclear, but chapter III says that someone who resigns immediately loses all offices "at the time that the Censors receive a resignation", so presumably the same is true of citizenship itself - the relevant time is the time when received, not the time when dispatched.

If that's correct, it raises two further questions. First, what counts as receipt where an e-mail to a list is concerned? Is it, for example, when the recipient actually reads the e-mail, or when the e-mail arrives in his in-box (assuming he receives e-mail from the list), or when it first reaches the e-mail list itself? Second, is the resignation only effective once received by both censores, or is it effective as soon as one censor receives it?

To the first question I would tend to answer that an e-mail is received as soon as it arrives in the recipient's in-box. In English law a letter is counted as received not when the recipient actually becomes aware of it but as soon as it arrives at his address (except that letters delivered to business addresses outside working hours don't count as received until the beginning of the next work day). But of course Roman law is not English law, and although as far as I'm aware Roman law itself had no particular rule on the subject it would be useful to know how the problem is dealt with in modern civil-law jurisdictions.

To the second question I would answer that it is sufficient for one of the censores to have received the e-mail. The censores are colleagues like other magistrates, but even more than other magistrates they are required to act unanimously. They are in some ways virtually a single person in public law, and communication to one of them ought to count as communication to both.

In most cases these questions won't make any practical difference, but it's interesting to explore the options.

One final and more practical consideration is that, although the lex itself was effective immediately on its enactment on the 5th of May, the censorial office is a machine of a certain size and complexity and may perhaps need a little time to adjust. In particular I recall that the database of citizens is set up in a way which is predicated on the old 9-day time-lag. Do you foresee any delay or difficulty in changing over to the new system?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44019 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re:
Salve Aule Apolloni,

> One final and more practical consideration is that, although the lex itself
> was effective immediately on its enactment on the 5th of May, the censorial
> office is a machine of a certain size and complexity and may perhaps need a
> little time to adjust. In particular I recall that the database of citizens
> is set up in a way which is predicated on the old 9-day time-lag. Do you
> foresee any delay or difficulty in changing over to the new system?

The only difficulty will be in studying all of the massively complex laws
and figuring out which still apply, and how the system has changed since
I was last Censor, two years ago. Perhaps I'll import some of these into
the Wiki this weekend, and in doing so will mark those that are no longer
relevant.

But there are no technical difficulties in changing from a 9-day waiting
period to having no waiting period at all; it's merely a question of
which value to place into the "status" field.

Vale, O.

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44020 From: Brutus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Salve Africane Secunde!

In addition to Agricola's excellent advice I would say that the most important thing is simply to start worshipping. The Religio Romana is not difficult and the Gods are easy to approach. Come before them with a sincere heart, honour them with offerings and make your requests. Particularly ask them how they wish to be worshipped. It is worth noting that while ritual can be very elaborate it can also be very simple!

You do not need a priest, indeed in terms of your own private worship YOU are the only priest you need. The rites on the Nova Roma site provide you with an excellent starting point. From here, with the aid of study and practice you can refine your prayers and worship and adapt them to the circumstances you find yourself in.

Venus is my own Patrona and I have always found her to be patient with me. If you wish specifically to worship her I would advise you to make a simple shrine with an image of the Goddess or a special item to represent her, like a beautiful seashell for example. Then decorate it with flowers and come before her with a simple offering and open your heart - it is that simple.

Vale!

Brutus

"M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rocknrockabilly" <franceuropa@...>
wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> I am asking to the priests of Nova Roma or any citizen familiar with
> it. How do we perform rituals to the gods, particularly to Venus? Do
> the ceremonies necessarly involve a priest, or can each individual
> worship the gods individually? How does one recite a prayer?
>
> Gratias et vale,
>
> T. Africanus Secundus Flamin.
>

Salve!

Have you looked at
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/rites_and_rituals.html ?

That would be a good place to start.

Optime vale

M. Lucretius Agricola






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44021 From: Matt Hucke Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: EDICTUM CENSORIS
Ex Officio Marci Octavii Germanici Censoris

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus is hereby
appointed Scriba Censoris.

M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor,
ante diem V Kal. IVNIAS MMDCCLIX a.u.c.

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"The day will come when our silence will be more powerful than the
voices you are throttling today." -- August Spies, 1887
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44022 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: cleanup projects at existing shrines?
Some Odinists had a litter cleanup project at the White Horse Stone
in England (apparently a neolithic site which also has Odinist
significance as the possible burial place of Horsa). Does anyone know
of Religio Romana sites in N. America (e.g., the Prometheus at
Rockefeller Center in Manhattan) that might need cleanup?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44023 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Augustus on fatherhood, according to Dio
"...you [fathers] have shown yourselves obedient & are helping to
replenish the fatherland. ...we came to surpass all mankind not only
in the manliness of our citizens but in the size of our population
as well.

"...For is there anything better than a wife who is chaste,
domestic, a good housekeeper, a rearer of children;

"...O - what shall I call you [unmarried men]? Men? But you are
not performing any of the offices of men. ...For you are committing
murder in not begetting in the first place those who ought to be
your descendants; ...you are abolishing your families, which were
instituted by the Gods...

"Bethink you, therefore, what wrath would justly seize the great
Romulus, the founder of our race, if he could reflect on the
circumstances of his own birth & then upon your conduct in refusing
to beget children even by lawful marriages! How wrathful would the
Romans who were his followers be, if they could realize that after
they themselves had even seized foreign girls, you are not satisfied
even with those of your own race..."


Dio's Roman History, Cary transl., Bk. 56, 2-5
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44024 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Roman Memorial Day
Salvete,

I'm back from over a year's hiatus in Armenia as
military advisor.

I'd like to remind all Romans (pagan or Christian)
that this weekend also marks the fall of the last bit
of ancient Rome, in 1453 Constantinople fell to the
Turks. Remember Byzantium this weekend in your
observances.

A. Sempronius Regulus

Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. -
Horace


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44025 From: rocknrockabilly Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Thank you all very much,

I think I will set up a Lararium in a clean corner of my room. I
have a statue of Boticceli's Venus, I think it will work.

This, by the way, makes me think of something. There are several
citizens complaining that Nova Roma will merely remain
an "organization," a "club" or "group." It seems that many do not
take it seriously in fact. I am wondering if Nova Roma could be
reformed into a more "religious" and neo-pagan organization, for the
time being at least. There are numerous neo-pagan groups existing
(Hellenic, Celtic, etc), and all seem striving and quite successful.
If Nova Roma first put more focus on religion (which it is supposed
to do on the first place, and without suppressing the Republican
institutions of course), it will be taken more seriously by members
and others, and we might then grow into a real political
institution.

Valete bene,

Titus A.S. Flam.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44026 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
M. Hortensia T. Africano Secundo spd;
Tite Africane, as my good friend reminded me, Nova Roma is
legally incorporated as an educational and religious non-profit
organization.
I don't think of it as a 'club' at all, but also I as a true
Roman take a cosmopolitan view that Romans might worship the gods,
adhere to various philosophies; stoicism, epicureanism,
pythagoreanism or belong to other cults such as Christianity or have
no religious beliefs whatsoever.
To make Nova Roma otherwise - would be positively unRoman!
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior, aedilis plebis

>
> I think I will set up a Lararium in a clean corner of my room. I
> have a statue of Boticceli's Venus, I think it will work.
>
> This, by the way, makes me think of something. There are several
> citizens complaining that Nova Roma will merely remain
> an "organization," a "club" or "group." It seems that many do not
> take it seriously in fact. I am wondering if Nova Roma could be
> reformed into a more "religious" and neo-pagan organization, for
the
> time being at least. There are numerous neo-pagan groups existing
> (Hellenic, Celtic, etc), and all seem striving and quite
successful.
> If Nova Roma first put more focus on religion (which it is
supposed
> to do on the first place, and without suppressing the Republican
> institutions of course), it will be taken more seriously by
members
> and others, and we might then grow into a real political
> institution.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Titus A.S. Flam.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44027 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
> A. Tullia Scholastica T. A.S. Quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Thank you all very much,
>
> I think I will set up a Lararium in a clean corner of my room. I
> have a statue of Boticceli's Venus, I think it will work.
>
> This, by the way, makes me think of something. There are several
> citizens complaining that Nova Roma will merely remain
> an "organization," a "club" or "group." It seems that many do not
> take it seriously in fact. I am wondering if Nova Roma could be
> reformed into a more "religious" and neo-pagan organization, for the
> time being at least.
>
>
> ATS: This may come as a surprise to you (and possibly others), but many
> (perhaps the majority of) citizens of NR do not practice the Religio Romana.
> Some are polytheists of other varieties, and a good many are Christian; some
> are Jewish, some are Stoic, some practice other faiths. Our constitution
> guarantees that freedom, for we are not solely a pagan organization. There
> are at least two Yahoo lists for RR members, one for Christians, one for Jews,
> and no doubt others for members of other faiths. We are drawn to NR by our
> interest in one or another aspect of ancient Rome. Some are here for Latin,
> which seems to be honored more here than among my Latin-teaching colleagues;
> some are here for reenactment, some are here for the experience of living in a
> Roman government, some are here for the opportunity to practice the RR in the
> context of a Roman government, as it existed in antiquity. Some are here for
> more than one of those reasons, and some for those not listed. It is
> therefore both unlikely that NR will be transformed into a ÂŒmore religious and
> neo-pagan organization¹ and possibly illegal to do so. There are other
> organizations which exist for strictly pagan religious purposes; NR has other
> purposes, and likely is constrained to do so, not only by our constitution,
> but by our incorporation documents.
>
>
> There are numerous neo-pagan groups existing
> (Hellenic, Celtic, etc), and all seem striving and quite successful.
> If Nova Roma first put more focus on religion (which it is supposed
> to do on the first place, and without suppressing the Republican
> institutions of course), it will be taken more seriously by members
> and others, and we might then grow into a real political
> institution.
>
> ATS: If we Œsuppress the Republican institutions,¹ we would be
> eliminating one of the main purposes of NR. Many of us do take NR quite
> seriously, and I can guarantee you that those who think that this is a lark or
> some sort of RPG don¹t make it past the censors¹ office, and certainly don¹t
> make it past the citizenship examination. We are all volunteers here, who
> have to find time for NR around other commitments; only a few are active, but
> that is the case in all organizations.
>
> The way for NR to grow is for it to welcome everyone, to appeal to
> everyone with an interest in Rome, not just RR practitioners, or males, or
> gladiators, or what have you.
>
> Incidentally, we used to have more activity on the ML on the part of
> various pontifices, but now only two, who are among the younger and busier
> pontifices, tend to post to the ML.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Titus A.S. Flam.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44028 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Roman Memorial Day
M. Hortensia A. Sempronio Regulo Quritibus spd;
Regule thank you for reminding us of those who fight
and those the gods have abandoned. Here is my prayer dedicated to
the Nova Romans in the military, Nova Romans and our res publica.

"Juppiter Pater, Conservator, Optimus Maximus I pray you watch over
the Nova Roman people and give them victory and preserve them from
all harm.
Mars and Bellona I pray you give strength and the winning
day to our soldiers. Magna Mater keep our res publica safe from all
harm.
Vesta Mater, your vigins pray for Rome to once again to
retain the favour and blessing of the gods."

may those who have died find joy
in the Elysian Fields,
blessed of the gods

M. Hortensia Maior
> Salvete,
>
> I'm back from over a year's hiatus in Armenia as
> military advisor.
>
> I'd like to remind all Romans (pagan or Christian)
> that this weekend also marks the fall of the last bit
> of ancient Rome, in 1453 Constantinople fell to the
> Turks. Remember Byzantium this weekend in your
> observances.
>
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
> Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. -
> Horace
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44029 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-05-28
Subject: Re: Roman Memorial Day
---Salve Ale Semproni Regule et Salvete Omnes:

Thanks for your reminder. And it's truly good to read from you
after such a long time.

Valete
Pompeia Minucia Strabo





In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Aulus Sempronius Regulus
<a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I'm back from over a year's hiatus in Armenia as
> military advisor.
>
> I'd like to remind all Romans (pagan or Christian)
> that this weekend also marks the fall of the last bit
> of ancient Rome, in 1453 Constantinople fell to the
> Turks. Remember Byzantium this weekend in your
> observances.
>
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
> Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
> Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. -
> Horace
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44030 From: flavius leviticus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Ave My Fellow Citizens,I must say that I am a citizen of this Nation for all the reasons listed and more.It is with an all encompasing feeling in all that Nova Roma is and represents that makes me proud to say I am a Roman.From the Virtues to the Religeo Romana to serving in her Legio,speaking Latin and in serving her in anyway I am able.For me Nova Roma has expanded my mind,increased my spirituality and allows me to serve something greater than myself.I am proud to be apart of Nova Roma and will be here till the day I draw my last breath.Vale,Appius Galerius Aurelianus,Semper Fidelis!

"A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> wrote: > A. Tullia Scholastica T. A.S. Quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Thank you all very much,
>
> I think I will set up a Lararium in a clean corner of my room. I
> have a statue of Boticceli's Venus, I think it will work.
>
> This, by the way, makes me think of something. There are several
> citizens complaining that Nova Roma will merely remain
> an "organization," a "club" or "group." It seems that many do not
> take it seriously in fact. I am wondering if Nova Roma could be
> reformed into a more "religious" and neo-pagan organization, for the
> time being at least.
>
>
> ATS: This may come as a surprise to you (and possibly others), but many
> (perhaps the majority of) citizens of NR do not practice the Religio Romana.
> Some are polytheists of other varieties, and a good many are Christian; some
> are Jewish, some are Stoic, some practice other faiths. Our constitution
> guarantees that freedom, for we are not solely a pagan organization. There
> are at least two Yahoo lists for RR members, one for Christians, one for Jews,
> and no doubt others for members of other faiths. We are drawn to NR by our
> interest in one or another aspect of ancient Rome. Some are here for Latin,
> which seems to be honored more here than among my Latin-teaching colleagues;
> some are here for reenactment, some are here for the experience of living in a
> Roman government, some are here for the opportunity to practice the RR in the
> context of a Roman government, as it existed in antiquity. Some are here for
> more than one of those reasons, and some for those not listed. It is
> therefore both unlikely that NR will be transformed into a ÂŒmore religious and
> neo-pagan organization¹ and possibly illegal to do so. There are other
> organizations which exist for strictly pagan religious purposes; NR has other
> purposes, and likely is constrained to do so, not only by our constitution,
> but by our incorporation documents.
>
>
> There are numerous neo-pagan groups existing
> (Hellenic, Celtic, etc), and all seem striving and quite successful.
> If Nova Roma first put more focus on religion (which it is supposed
> to do on the first place, and without suppressing the Republican
> institutions of course), it will be taken more seriously by members
> and others, and we might then grow into a real political
> institution.
>
> ATS: If we Œsuppress the Republican institutions,¹ we would be
> eliminating one of the main purposes of NR. Many of us do take NR quite
> seriously, and I can guarantee you that those who think that this is a lark or
> some sort of RPG don¹t make it past the censors¹ office, and certainly don¹t
> make it past the citizenship examination. We are all volunteers here, who
> have to find time for NR around other commitments; only a few are active, but
> that is the case in all organizations.
>
> The way for NR to grow is for it to welcome everyone, to appeal to
> everyone with an interest in Rome, not just RR practitioners, or males, or
> gladiators, or what have you.
>
> Incidentally, we used to have more activity on the ML on the part of
> various pontifices, but now only two, who are among the younger and busier
> pontifices, tend to post to the ML.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Titus A.S. Flam.
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44031 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: a.d. IV Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IV Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"But there is another one, older and fabulous, in which we are told
that Rome was an Arcadian colony and founded by Evander: When
Heracles was driving the cattle of Geryon he was entertained by
Evander; and since Evander had learned from his mother Nicostrate (she
was skilled in the art of divination, the story goes) that Heracles
was destined to become a god after he had finished his labours, he not
only told this to Heracles but also consecrated to him a precinct and
offered a sacrifice to him after the Greek ritual, which is still to
this day kept up in honour of Heracles. And Coelius himself, the Roman
historian, puts this down as proof that Rome was founded by Greeks —
the fact that at Rome the hereditary sacrifice to Heracles is after
the Greek ritual. And the Romans honour also the mother of Evander,
regarding her as one of the nymphs, although her name has been changed
to Carmentis." - Strabo, Geography V.3

"The following is the formula for purifying land: Bidding the
suovetaurilia to be led around, use the words: "That with the good
help of the gods success may crown our work, I bid thee, Manius, to
take care to purify my farm, my land, my ground with this
suovetaurilia, in whatever part thou thinkest best for them to be
driven or carried around." Make a prayer with wine to Janus and
Jupiter, and say: "Father Mars, I pray and beseech thee that thou be
gracious and merciful to me, my house, and my household; to which
intent I have bidden this suovetaurilia to be led around my land, my
ground, my farm; that thou keep away, ward off, and remove sickness,
seen and unseen, barrenness and destruction, ruin and unseasonable
influence; and that thou permit my harvests, my grain, my vineyards,
and my plantations to flourish and to come to good issue, preserve in
health my shepherds and my flocks, and give good health and strength
to me, my house, and my household. To this intent, to the intent of
purifying my farm, my land, my ground, and of making an expiation, as
I have said, deign to accept the offering of these suckling victims;
Father Mars, to the same intent deign to accept the offering of these
suckling offering." Also heap the cakes with the knife and see that
the oblation cake be hard by, then present the victims. When you offer
up the pig, the lamb, and the calf, use this formula: "To this intent
deign to accept the offering of these victims." If favourable omens
are not obtained in response to all, speak thus: "Father Mars, if
aught hath not pleased thee in the offering of those sucklings, I make
atonement with these victims." If there is doubt about one or two, use
these words: "Father Mars, inasmuch as thou wast not pleased by the
offering of that pig, I make atonement with this pig." - Cato, de Re
Rustica 141

"I shall not hear your trentals,
Nor eat your arval bread,
Nor with smug breath tell lies of death
To the unanswering dead.

With snuffle and sniff and handkerchief,
The folk who loved you not
Will bury you, and go wondering
Back home. And you will rot.

But laughing and half-way up to heaven,
With wind and hill and star,
I yet shall keep, before I sleep,
Your Ambarvalia." - Rupert Brooke, "Lines Written in the Belief That
the Ancient Roman Festival of the Dead Was Called Ambarvalia" (AD
1916) lines 62-72



Today is the celebration of the Ambarvalia, an annual festival of the
Romans occurring in May, the object of which was to secure the
growing crops against harm of all kinds. The priests were the Arval
Brothers, who conducted the victimsox, sheep and pig (suovetaurilia)
in procession with prayer to Ceres round the boundaries of the ager
Romanus. As the extent of Roman land increased, this could no longer
be done, and in the Acta of the Fratres, which date from Augustus, we
do not find this procession mentioned; but there is a good description
of this or a similar rite in Virgil, and in Cato's work de Re Rustica
we have full details and the text of the prayers used by the Latin
farmer in thus "lustrating" his own land. The Ambarvaliae, both
private and public, were so called from the victim (hostia ambarvalis)
that was slain on the occasion being led three times round the
cornfields, before the sickle was put to the corn. This victim was
accompanied by a crowd of merry-makers (chorus et socii), the reapers
and farm-servants dancing and singing, as they marched along, the
praises of Ceres, and praying for her favour and presence, while they
offered her the libations of milk, honey, and wine.

The Christian festival which seems to have taken the place of these
ceremonies is the Rogation Sunday of the Roman Catholic and High
Anglican churches. The perambulation or beating of bounds is probably
a survival of the same type of rite.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Strabo, Cato, Rupert Brooke, Smith's Dictionary, Wikipedia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44032 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: 29 May AD 1453
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes.

On this day the last vestiges of the unbroken Roman Empire, in
existence for some two thousand years, fell under the onslaught of the
Ottoman Turks. The Great City, Constantinople, was captured by Mehmet II.

The assault began after midnight, into the 29th of May 1453. Wave
after wave the attackers charged. Battle cries, accompanied by the
sound of drums, trumpets and fifes, filled the air. The bells of the
city churches began ringing frantically. Orders, screams and the sound
of trumpets shattered the night. First came the irregulars, an
unreliable, multinational crowd of Christians and Moslems, who were
attracted by the opportunity of enriching themselves by looting the
great city, the last capital of the Roman Empire. They attacked
throughout the line of fortifications and they were massacred by the
tough professionals, who were fighting under the orders of
Giustiniani. The battle lasted two hours and the irregulars withdrew
in disorder, leaving behind an unknown number of dead and wounded.

Next came the Anatolian troops of Ishak Pasha. They tried to storm the
stockades. They fought tenaciously, even desperately trying to break
through the compact ranks of the defenders. The narrow area in which
fighting went on helped the defenders. The could hack left and right
with their maces and swords and shoot missiles onto the mass of
attackers without having to aim. A group of attackers crashed through
a gap and for a moment it seemed that they could enter the city. The
were assaulted by the Emperor and his men and were soon slain. This
second attack also failed.

But now came the Janissaries, disciplined, professional, ruthless
warriors, superbly trained, ready to die for their master, the Sultan.
They assaulted the now exhausted defenders, they were pushing their
way over bodies of dead and dying Moslem and Christian soldiers. With
tremendous effort the Greek and Italian fighters were hitting back and
continued repulsing the enemy. Then a group of enemy soldiers
unexpectedly entered the city from a small sally-port called
Kerkoporta, on the wall of Blachernae, where this wall joined the
triple wall. Fighting broke near the small gate with the defenders
trying to eliminate the intruders.

It was almost day now, the first light, before sunrise, when a shot
fired from a calverin hit Giustiniani. The shot pierced his
breastplate and he fell on the ground. Shaken by his wound and
physically exhausted, his fighting spirit collapsed. Despite the pleas
of the Emperor, who was fighting nearby, not to leave his post, the
Genoese commander ordered his men to take him out of the battle-field.
A Gate in the inner wall was opened for the group of Genoese soldiers,
who were carrying their wounded commander, to come into the city. The
soldiers who were fighting near the area saw the Gate open, their
comrades carrying their leader crossing into the city, and they though
that the defence line had been broken. They all rushed through the
Gate leaving the Emperor and the Greek fighters alone between the two
walls. This sudden movement did not escape the attention of the
Ottoman commanders. Frantic orders were issued to the troops to
concentrate their attack on the weakened position. Thousands rushed to
the area. The stockade was broken. The Greeks were now squeezed by
crowds of Janissaries between the stockade and the wall. More
Janissaries came in and many reached the inner wall.

Meanwhile more were pouring in through the Kerkoporta, where the
defenders had not been able to eliminate the first intruders. Soon the
first enemy flags were seen on the walls. The Emperor and his
commanders were trying frantically to rally their troops and push back
the enemy. It was too late. Waves of Janissaries, followed by other
regular units of the Ottoman army, were crashing throught the open
Gates, mixed with fleeing and slaughtered Christian soldiers. Then the
Emperor, realizing that everything was lost, removed his Imperial
insignia, and followed by his cousin Theophilus Palaeologus, the
Castilian Don Francisco of Toledo, and John Dalmatus, all four holding
their swords, charged into the sea of the enemy soldiers, hitting left
and right in a final act of defiance. They were never seen again.

Now thousands of Ottoman soldiers were pouring into the city. One
after the other the city Gates were opened. The Ottoman flags began
appearing on the walls, on the towers, on the Palace at Blachernae.
Civilians in panic were rushing to the churches. Others locked
themselves in their homes, some continued fighting in the streets,
crowds of Greeks and foreigners were rushing towards the port area.
The allied ships were still there and began collecting refugees. The
Cretan soldiers and sailors, manning three towers near the entrance of
the Golden Horn, were still fighting and had no intention of
surrendering. At the end, the Ottoman commanders had to agree to a
truce and let them sail away, carrying their arms.

The excesses which followed, druing the early hours of the Ottoman
victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses. They were, and
unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost a ritual, among all
armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory after a prolonged and
violent struggle. Thus, bands of soldiers began now looting. Doors
were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were massacred.
Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents were
broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped, many, to avoid
dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning,
enslaving, went on and on according to tradition. The troops had to
satisfy themselves. The great doors of Saint Sophia were forced open,
and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate
worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for
hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the
city. Everything that could be taken from the splendid buildings was
taken by the new masters of the Imperial capital. Icons were
destroyed, precious manuscripts were lost forever. Thousands of
civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young
women. Death and enslavement did not distinguish among social classes.
Nobles and peasants were treated with equal ruthlessness.

In some distant neighborhoods, especially near the sea walls in the
sea of Marmora, such as Psamathia, but also in the Golden Horn at
Phanar and Petrion, where local fishermen opened the Gates, while the
enemy soldiers were pouring into the city from the land Gates, local
magistrates negotiated successfully their surrender to Hamza Bey's
officers. Their act saved the lives of their fellow citizens.
Furthermore their churches were not desecrated. Meanwhile, the crews
of the Ottoman fleet abandoned their ships to rush into the city. They
were worried that the land army was going to take everything. The
collapse of discipline gave the Christian ships time to sail out of
the Golden Horn. Venetian, Genoese and Greek ships, loaded with
refugees, some of them having reached the ships swimming from the
city, sailed away to freedom. On one of the Genoese vessels was
Giustiniani. He was taken from the boat at Chios where he died, from
his wound, a few days later.

The Sultan, with his top commanders and his guard of Janissaries,
entered the city in the afternoon of the first day of occupation.
Constantinople was finally his and he intended to make it the capital
of his mighty Empire. He toured the ruined city. He visited Saint
Sophia which he ordered to be turned into a mosque. He also ordered an
end to the killing. What he saw was desolation, destruction, death in
the streets, ruins, desecrated churches. It was too much. It is said
that, as he rode through the streets of the former capital of the
Christian Roman Empire, the city of Constantine, moved to tears he
murmured: "What a city we have given over to plunder and destruction".


Valete,

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysios Hatzopoulos, "The Fall of Constantinople, 1453", Babinger,
F., "Mahomet II le Conquerant et son Temps, 1432-1481", translated
from the German by H.E. del Medico, Paris, 1954, Pears, E., "The
Destruction of the Greek Empire and the story of the Capture of
Constantinople" by the Turks", London, 1903, Schlumberger, G., Le
siege, la prise et la sac de Constantionple en 1453", Paris, 1926,
Walter, G., La ruine de Byzance", Paris, 1958.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44033 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Memorial Day (US)
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Today is also the celebration of Memorial Day in the United States.

"Let us now praise famous men,
and our fathers that begat us.
The LORD hath wrought great glory by them
through His great power from the beginning.
Such as did bear rule in their kingdoms,
men renowned for their power,
giving counsel by their understanding,
and declaring prophecies:
Leaders of the people by their counsels,
and by their knowledge of learning
meet for the people, wise and eloquent
are their instructions:
Such as found out musical tunes,
and recited verses in writing:
Rich men furnished with ability,
living peaceably in their habitations:
All these were honoured in their generations,
and were the glory of their times.
There be of them, that have left a name
behind them, that their praises might be reported.
And some there be, which have no memorial;
who are perished, as though they
had never been; and are become as though
they had never been born;
and their children after them.
But these were merciful men,
whose righteousness hath not been forgotten." - Ecclesiasticus 44:1-10

Valete bene!

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44034 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Salvete omnes,

A few facts about Byzantium,

1. To maintain a highly trained
and educated imperial staff,
Byzantium had Europe's first
university, the University
of Constantinople. It was also
the only university that allowed
women to attend as well as men.

2. Byzantium did not go through
a "dark ages" but preserved the
literary legacy of classical
antiquity. Byzantine scholars
developed the critical apparatus
that forms the basis of modern
historical scholarship in sifting
through variant texts, multiple
manuscripts, in order to determine
what the original uncorrupted text
of a work must have been like.
They invented, in other words,
the "critical edition". About all
the texts we have from antiquity
we have received from the care
of Byzantine scholars.

3. According to several recent
studies, the Italian Renaissance
was partly due to northern Italy
being a Byzantine province and
the fall of Constantinople brought
scores of Byzantine scholars as
emigres to Italian universities
and academies. In Byzantine culture,
there was a tolerated but tension-
filled struggle of ideas and values
between the religiously conservative
monks and the Byzantine Neoplatonist
humanists. With the fall of
Constantinople, the Greeks under
Turkish rule consolidated around
the only institution they had left,
the Orthodox Church, and the monks
won out over the humanists. It is
the Byzantine humanists that mainly
come to the west. That is one reason
why, besides Aristotle (Aquinas used
a more accurate translation from
Byzantine sources than the Muslims
had in the Averroist debate) and
Plato, Marsilio Ficino could also
translate the Corpus Hermeticum.

4. Byzantium abolished slavery
before all other countries.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44035 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Salvete omnes,

A little trivia - Constantinopal kept her name until 1930 and the
post WWI Turkish government changed the name to Istanbul. Sometimes
I like to get the goat of some Turkish folks I know and keep
referring to the name Constantinopal. That always gets them worked
up in the conversation.

Regards,

QSP





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:
>
> OSD C. Equitius Cato
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> On this day the last vestiges of the unbroken Roman Empire, in
> existence for some two thousand years, fell under the onslaught of
the
> Ottoman Turks. The Great City, Constantinople, was captured by
Mehmet II.
>
> The assault began after midnight, into the 29th of May 1453. Wave
> after wave the attackers charged. Battle cries, accompanied by the
> sound of drums, trumpets and fifes, filled the air. The bells of
the
> city churches began ringing frantically. Orders, screams and the
sound
> of trumpets shattered the night. First came the irregulars, an
> unreliable, multinational crowd of Christians and Moslems, who were
> attracted by the opportunity of enriching themselves by looting the
> great city, the last capital of the Roman Empire. They attacked
> throughout the line of fortifications and they were massacred by
the
> tough professionals, who were fighting under the orders of
> Giustiniani. The battle lasted two hours and the irregulars
withdrew
> in disorder, leaving behind an unknown number of dead and wounded.
>
> Next came the Anatolian troops of Ishak Pasha. They tried to storm
the
> stockades. They fought tenaciously, even desperately trying to
break
> through the compact ranks of the defenders. The narrow area in
which
> fighting went on helped the defenders. The could hack left and
right
> with their maces and swords and shoot missiles onto the mass of
> attackers without having to aim. A group of attackers crashed
through
> a gap and for a moment it seemed that they could enter the city.
The
> were assaulted by the Emperor and his men and were soon slain. This
> second attack also failed.
>
> But now came the Janissaries, disciplined, professional, ruthless
> warriors, superbly trained, ready to die for their master, the
Sultan.
> They assaulted the now exhausted defenders, they were pushing their
> way over bodies of dead and dying Moslem and Christian soldiers.
With
> tremendous effort the Greek and Italian fighters were hitting back
and
> continued repulsing the enemy. Then a group of enemy soldiers
> unexpectedly entered the city from a small sally-port called
> Kerkoporta, on the wall of Blachernae, where this wall joined the
> triple wall. Fighting broke near the small gate with the defenders
> trying to eliminate the intruders.
>
> It was almost day now, the first light, before sunrise, when a shot
> fired from a calverin hit Giustiniani. The shot pierced his
> breastplate and he fell on the ground. Shaken by his wound and
> physically exhausted, his fighting spirit collapsed. Despite the
pleas
> of the Emperor, who was fighting nearby, not to leave his post, the
> Genoese commander ordered his men to take him out of the battle-
field.
> A Gate in the inner wall was opened for the group of Genoese
soldiers,
> who were carrying their wounded commander, to come into the city.
The
> soldiers who were fighting near the area saw the Gate open, their
> comrades carrying their leader crossing into the city, and they
though
> that the defence line had been broken. They all rushed through the
> Gate leaving the Emperor and the Greek fighters alone between the
two
> walls. This sudden movement did not escape the attention of the
> Ottoman commanders. Frantic orders were issued to the troops to
> concentrate their attack on the weakened position. Thousands
rushed to
> the area. The stockade was broken. The Greeks were now squeezed by
> crowds of Janissaries between the stockade and the wall. More
> Janissaries came in and many reached the inner wall.
>
> Meanwhile more were pouring in through the Kerkoporta, where the
> defenders had not been able to eliminate the first intruders. Soon
the
> first enemy flags were seen on the walls. The Emperor and his
> commanders were trying frantically to rally their troops and push
back
> the enemy. It was too late. Waves of Janissaries, followed by other
> regular units of the Ottoman army, were crashing throught the open
> Gates, mixed with fleeing and slaughtered Christian soldiers. Then
the
> Emperor, realizing that everything was lost, removed his Imperial
> insignia, and followed by his cousin Theophilus Palaeologus, the
> Castilian Don Francisco of Toledo, and John Dalmatus, all four
holding
> their swords, charged into the sea of the enemy soldiers, hitting
left
> and right in a final act of defiance. They were never seen again.
>
> Now thousands of Ottoman soldiers were pouring into the city. One
> after the other the city Gates were opened. The Ottoman flags began
> appearing on the walls, on the towers, on the Palace at Blachernae.
> Civilians in panic were rushing to the churches. Others locked
> themselves in their homes, some continued fighting in the streets,
> crowds of Greeks and foreigners were rushing towards the port area.
> The allied ships were still there and began collecting refugees.
The
> Cretan soldiers and sailors, manning three towers near the
entrance of
> the Golden Horn, were still fighting and had no intention of
> surrendering. At the end, the Ottoman commanders had to agree to a
> truce and let them sail away, carrying their arms.
>
> The excesses which followed, druing the early hours of the Ottoman
> victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses. They were, and
> unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost a ritual, among
all
> armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory after a prolonged
and
> violent struggle. Thus, bands of soldiers began now looting. Doors
> were broken, private homes were looted, their tenants were
massacred.
> Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries and Convents
were
> broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were raped, many, to
avoid
> dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping, looting, burning,
> enslaving, went on and on according to tradition. The troops had to
> satisfy themselves. The great doors of Saint Sophia were forced
open,
> and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon the unfortunate
> worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy place went on for
> hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most churches in the
> city. Everything that could be taken from the splendid buildings
was
> taken by the new masters of the Imperial capital. Icons were
> destroyed, precious manuscripts were lost forever. Thousands of
> civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over young boys and young
> women. Death and enslavement did not distinguish among social
classes.
> Nobles and peasants were treated with equal ruthlessness.
>
> In some distant neighborhoods, especially near the sea walls in the
> sea of Marmora, such as Psamathia, but also in the Golden Horn at
> Phanar and Petrion, where local fishermen opened the Gates, while
the
> enemy soldiers were pouring into the city from the land Gates,
local
> magistrates negotiated successfully their surrender to Hamza Bey's
> officers. Their act saved the lives of their fellow citizens.
> Furthermore their churches were not desecrated. Meanwhile, the
crews
> of the Ottoman fleet abandoned their ships to rush into the city.
They
> were worried that the land army was going to take everything. The
> collapse of discipline gave the Christian ships time to sail out of
> the Golden Horn. Venetian, Genoese and Greek ships, loaded with
> refugees, some of them having reached the ships swimming from the
> city, sailed away to freedom. On one of the Genoese vessels was
> Giustiniani. He was taken from the boat at Chios where he died,
from
> his wound, a few days later.
>
> The Sultan, with his top commanders and his guard of Janissaries,
> entered the city in the afternoon of the first day of occupation.
> Constantinople was finally his and he intended to make it the
capital
> of his mighty Empire. He toured the ruined city. He visited Saint
> Sophia which he ordered to be turned into a mosque. He also
ordered an
> end to the killing. What he saw was desolation, destruction, death
in
> the streets, ruins, desecrated churches. It was too much. It is
said
> that, as he rode through the streets of the former capital of the
> Christian Roman Empire, the city of Constantine, moved to tears he
> murmured: "What a city we have given over to plunder and
destruction".
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
>
>
> SOURCES
>
> Dionysios Hatzopoulos, "The Fall of Constantinople, 1453",
Babinger,
> F., "Mahomet II le Conquerant et son Temps, 1432-1481", translated
> from the German by H.E. del Medico, Paris, 1954, Pears, E., "The
> Destruction of the Greek Empire and the story of the Capture of
> Constantinople" by the Turks", London, 1903, Schlumberger, G., Le
> siege, la prise et la sac de Constantionple en 1453", Paris, 1926,
> Walter, G., La ruine de Byzance", Paris, 1958.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44036 From: Kristoffer From Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:
> A little trivia - Constantinopal kept her name until 1930 and the
> post WWI Turkish government changed the name to Istanbul. Sometimes
> I like to get the goat of some Turkish folks I know and keep
> referring to the name Constantinopal. That always gets them worked
> up in the conversation.

Salve,

Everybody knows its PROPER name is Miklagard. The Vikings said so and,
as most everybody in Europe knew at the time, what they say goes.

The Romans, on the other hand, called the city in question
Constantinopolis - when not using the name Constantinus originally gave
it, Nova Roma. ;)

Constantinople is closer to the Greek pronounciation. Here's a very
informative Wikipedia (not NRWiki, unfortunately) article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44037 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Salvete omnes,

Making acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide as a
condition of Turkey joining the EU made the Turkish
government furious as will a planned NATO
acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide if Armenia
joins NATO in the future.

--- "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
<mjk@...> wrote:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> A little trivia - Constantinopal kept her name until
> 1930 and the
> post WWI Turkish government changed the name to
> Istanbul. Sometimes
> I like to get the goat of some Turkish folks I know
> and keep
> referring to the name Constantinopal. That always
> gets them worked
> up in the conversation.
>
> Regards,
>
> QSP
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> "gaiusequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > OSD C. Equitius Cato
> >
> > Salvete omnes.
> >
> > On this day the last vestiges of the unbroken
> Roman Empire, in
> > existence for some two thousand years, fell under
> the onslaught of
> the
> > Ottoman Turks. The Great City, Constantinople,
> was captured by
> Mehmet II.
> >
> > The assault began after midnight, into the 29th of
> May 1453. Wave
> > after wave the attackers charged. Battle cries,
> accompanied by the
> > sound of drums, trumpets and fifes, filled the
> air. The bells of
> the
> > city churches began ringing frantically. Orders,
> screams and the
> sound
> > of trumpets shattered the night. First came the
> irregulars, an
> > unreliable, multinational crowd of Christians and
> Moslems, who were
> > attracted by the opportunity of enriching
> themselves by looting the
> > great city, the last capital of the Roman Empire.
> They attacked
> > throughout the line of fortifications and they
> were massacred by
> the
> > tough professionals, who were fighting under the
> orders of
> > Giustiniani. The battle lasted two hours and the
> irregulars
> withdrew
> > in disorder, leaving behind an unknown number of
> dead and wounded.
> >
> > Next came the Anatolian troops of Ishak Pasha.
> They tried to storm
> the
> > stockades. They fought tenaciously, even
> desperately trying to
> break
> > through the compact ranks of the defenders. The
> narrow area in
> which
> > fighting went on helped the defenders. The could
> hack left and
> right
> > with their maces and swords and shoot missiles
> onto the mass of
> > attackers without having to aim. A group of
> attackers crashed
> through
> > a gap and for a moment it seemed that they could
> enter the city.
> The
> > were assaulted by the Emperor and his men and were
> soon slain. This
> > second attack also failed.
> >
> > But now came the Janissaries, disciplined,
> professional, ruthless
> > warriors, superbly trained, ready to die for their
> master, the
> Sultan.
> > They assaulted the now exhausted defenders, they
> were pushing their
> > way over bodies of dead and dying Moslem and
> Christian soldiers.
> With
> > tremendous effort the Greek and Italian fighters
> were hitting back
> and
> > continued repulsing the enemy. Then a group of
> enemy soldiers
> > unexpectedly entered the city from a small
> sally-port called
> > Kerkoporta, on the wall of Blachernae, where this
> wall joined the
> > triple wall. Fighting broke near the small gate
> with the defenders
> > trying to eliminate the intruders.
> >
> > It was almost day now, the first light, before
> sunrise, when a shot
> > fired from a calverin hit Giustiniani. The shot
> pierced his
> > breastplate and he fell on the ground. Shaken by
> his wound and
> > physically exhausted, his fighting spirit
> collapsed. Despite the
> pleas
> > of the Emperor, who was fighting nearby, not to
> leave his post, the
> > Genoese commander ordered his men to take him out
> of the battle-
> field.
> > A Gate in the inner wall was opened for the group
> of Genoese
> soldiers,
> > who were carrying their wounded commander, to come
> into the city.
> The
> > soldiers who were fighting near the area saw the
> Gate open, their
> > comrades carrying their leader crossing into the
> city, and they
> though
> > that the defence line had been broken. They all
> rushed through the
> > Gate leaving the Emperor and the Greek fighters
> alone between the
> two
> > walls. This sudden movement did not escape the
> attention of the
> > Ottoman commanders. Frantic orders were issued to
> the troops to
> > concentrate their attack on the weakened position.
> Thousands
> rushed to
> > the area. The stockade was broken. The Greeks were
> now squeezed by
> > crowds of Janissaries between the stockade and the
> wall. More
> > Janissaries came in and many reached the inner
> wall.
> >
> > Meanwhile more were pouring in through the
> Kerkoporta, where the
> > defenders had not been able to eliminate the first
> intruders. Soon
> the
> > first enemy flags were seen on the walls. The
> Emperor and his
> > commanders were trying frantically to rally their
> troops and push
> back
> > the enemy. It was too late. Waves of Janissaries,
> followed by other
> > regular units of the Ottoman army, were crashing
> throught the open
> > Gates, mixed with fleeing and slaughtered
> Christian soldiers. Then
> the
> > Emperor, realizing that everything was lost,
> removed his Imperial
> > insignia, and followed by his cousin Theophilus
> Palaeologus, the
> > Castilian Don Francisco of Toledo, and John
> Dalmatus, all four
> holding
> > their swords, charged into the sea of the enemy
> soldiers, hitting
> left
> > and right in a final act of defiance. They were
> never seen again.
> >
> > Now thousands of Ottoman soldiers were pouring
> into the city. One
> > after the other the city Gates were opened. The
> Ottoman flags began
> > appearing on the walls, on the towers, on the
> Palace at Blachernae.
> > Civilians in panic were rushing to the churches.
> Others locked
> > themselves in their homes, some continued fighting
> in the streets,
> > crowds of Greeks and foreigners were rushing
> towards the port area.
> > The allied ships were still there and began
> collecting refugees.
> The
> > Cretan soldiers and sailors, manning three towers
> near the
> entrance of
> > the Golden Horn, were still fighting and had no
> intention of
> > surrendering. At the end, the Ottoman commanders
> had to agree to a
> > truce and let them sail away, carrying their arms.
>
> >
> > The excesses which followed, druing the early
> hours of the Ottoman
> > victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses.
> They were, and
> > unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost
> a ritual, among
> all
> > armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory
> after a prolonged
> and
> > violent struggle. Thus, bands of soldiers began
> now looting. Doors
> > were broken, private homes were looted, their
> tenants were
> massacred.
> > Shops in the city markets were looted. Monasteries
> and Convents
> were
> > broken in. Their tenants were killed, nuns were
> raped, many, to
> avoid
> > dishonor, killed themselves. Killing, raping,
> looting, burning,
> > enslaving, went on and on according to tradition.
> The troops had to
> > satisfy themselves. The great doors of Saint
> Sophia were forced
> open,
> > and crowds of angry soldiers came in and fell upon
> the unfortunate
> > worshippers. Pillaging and killing in the holy
> place went on for
> > hours. Similar was the fate of worshippers in most
> churches in the
> > city. Everything that could be taken from the
> splendid buildings
> was
> > taken by the new masters of the Imperial capital.
> Icons were
> > destroyed, precious manuscripts were lost forever.
> Thousands of
> > civilians were enslaved, soldiers fought over
> young boys and young
> > women. Death and enslavement did not distinguish
> among social
> classes.
> > Nobles and peasants were treated with equal
> ruthlessness.
> >
> > In some distant neighborhoods, especially near the
> sea walls in the
> > sea of Marmora, such as Psamathia, but also in the
> Golden Horn at
> > Phanar and Petrion, where local fishermen opened
> the Gates, while
> the
> > enemy soldiers were pouring into the city from the
> land Gates,
> local
> > magistrates negotiated successfully their
> surrender to Hamza Bey's
> > officers. Their act saved the lives of their
> fellow citizens.
> > Furthermore their churches were not desecrated.
> Meanwhile, the
> crews
> > of the Ottoman fleet abandoned their ships to rush
> into the city.
> They
> > were worried that the land army was going to take
> everything. The
> > collapse of discipline gave the Christian ships
> time to sail out of
> > the Golden Horn. Venetian, Genoese and Greek
> ships, loaded with
> > refugees, some of them having reached the ships
> swimming from the
> > city, sailed away to freedom. On one of the
> Genoese vessels was
> > Giustiniani. He was taken from the boat at Chios
> where he died,
> from
> > his wound, a few days later.
> >
> > The Sultan, with his top commanders and his guard
> of Janissaries,
> > entered the city in the afternoon of the first day
> of occupation.
> > Constantinople was finally his and he intended to
> make it the
> capital
> > of his mighty Empire. He toured the ruined city.
> He visited Saint
> > Sophia which he ordered to be turned into a
> mosque. He also
> ordered an
> > end to the killing. What he saw was desolation,
> destruction, death
> in
> > the streets, ruins, desecrated churches. It was
> too much. It is
> said
> > that, as he rode through the streets of the former
> capital of the
> > Christian Roman Empire, the city of Constantine,
> moved to tears he
> > murmured: "What a city we have given over to
> plunder and
> destruction".
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> >
> > SOURCES
> >
> > Dionysios Hatzopoulos, "The Fall of
> Constantinople, 1453",
> Babinger,
> > F., "Mahomet II le Conquerant et son Temps,
> 1432-1481", translated
> > from the German by H.E. del Medico, Paris, 1954,
> Pears, E., "The
> > Destruction of the Greek Empire and the story of
> the Capture of
> > Constantinople" by the Turks", London, 1903,
> Schlumberger, G., Le
> > siege, la prise et la sac de Constantionple en
> 1453", Paris, 1926,
> > Walter, G., La ruine de Byzance", Paris, 1958.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>


A. Sempronius Regulus

Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. - Horace
MMDCCLVIII Anno urbis conditae (AUC)






__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44038 From: praxidike@gmail.com Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Salvete,

To add a little something to the trivia: the name Istanbul is not a
proper name in any case. It comes from "stin Poli" (and in Ancient
Greek I think it's "eis tin Polin") meaning to/at the city. During the
Byzantine period, Constantinople was simply referred to as "Poli",
meaning "the city" and this was used well into modern times by the
Greek inhabitants. Ottoman Turks started calling the city as such when
they conquered and through deformation it turned into Istanbul. In
Arabic, it was called Konstantiniyye. By 1930 the name was officially
changed, though I really don't know the reason behind it.

As having been born in Turkey, I can say that most people really are
very touchy about the name Constantinople, but then most people have
no idea that Istanbul is not a proper name and comes from a Greek
usage.

Valete,
Ti. Iulia Pulchra



On 5/29/06, Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
<mjk@...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> A little trivia - Constantinopal kept her name until 1930 and the
> post WWI Turkish government changed the name to Istanbul. Sometimes
> I like to get the goat of some Turkish folks I know and keep
> referring to the name Constantinopal. That always gets them worked
> up in the conversation.
>
> Regards,
>
> QSP
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44039 From: praxidike@gmail.com Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Salve,

>
> Constantinople is closer to the Greek pronounciation. Here's a very
> informative Wikipedia (not NRWiki, unfortunately) article:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Actually the Greek is spelled like this (for those who have Greek
fonts): κωνσταντινοπολις. Greeklish would be like this:
Kwnstantinopolis (the w: omega) and is pronounced as Konstantinopolis,
pretty straighforwardly. Constantinople pronounciation is the English
one.

Vale,

Ti. Iulia Pulchra
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44040 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus A. Sempronio Regulo salutem dicit

I think this is a very good thing, to force the Turkish government to
acknowlege the genocide of the past. I recently hear a lecture on the
genocide in Rwanda, as well as the genocide against the Jews in Europe.
Genocide in any form is a horrible thing, and it is good for people to
remember the horror that others have done to other people, so we can
hopefully prevent future instances of genocide.

Thanks for sharing this!

Vale:

Modianus

On 5/29/06, Aulus Sempronius Regulus <a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Making acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide as a
> condition of Turkey joining the EU made the Turkish
> government furious as will a planned NATO
> acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide if Armenia
> joins NATO in the future.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44041 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Academic Book Recommendation: Vedic and Roman Cult Parallels
Salvete,

In the past I've posted here on Vedic and Roman ritual
parallels. There is a new forthcoming book coming out
this year that details this parallel even more. It is


Indo-European Sacred Space: Vedic And Roman Cult
Traditions. Univ of Illinois Press (Hardcover), 2006
(not yet released). by Roger D. Woodard


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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44042 From: Stefanie Beer Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 29 May AD 1453
L.Flavia Lectrix omnibus sal.

not to forget the Americans driving the Indians into reservations or the
Serbian killing the Albanians in Kosovo....

-------Originalmeldung-------

Von: David Kling (Modianus)
Datum: 05/29/06 18:18:30
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 29 May AD 1453

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus A. Sempronio Regulo salutem dicit

I think this is a very good thing, to force the Turkish government to
acknowlege the genocide of the past. I recently hear a lecture on the
genocide in Rwanda, as well as the genocide against the Jews in Europe.
Genocide in any form is a horrible thing, and it is good for people to
remember the horror that others have done to other people, so we can
hopefully prevent future instances of genocide.

Thanks for sharing this!

Vale:

Modianus

On 5/29/06, Aulus Sempronius Regulus <a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Making acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide as a
> condition of Turkey joining the EU made the Turkish
> government furious as will a planned NATO
> acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide if Armenia
> joins NATO in the future.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44043 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
M. Hortensia G. Buteoni Modiano spd;
yes, I'm in complete agreement and thank A. Sempronius
Regulus for reminding us. The Turks are trying to rewrite history
just as the Nazis hoped, we cannot collude with such behavior.
Genocide- one race trying to exterminate another is not something we
can consign to the past...We just saw it in Rwanda.
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior


> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus A. Sempronio Regulo salutem dicit
>
> I think this is a very good thing, to force the Turkish government
to
> acknowlege the genocide of the past. I recently hear a lecture on
the
> genocide in Rwanda, as well as the genocide against the Jews in
Europe.
> Genocide in any form is a horrible thing, and it is good for
people to
> remember the horror that others have done to other people, so we
can
> hopefully prevent future instances of genocide.
>
> Thanks for sharing this!
>
> Vale:
>
> Modianus
>
> On 5/29/06, Aulus Sempronius Regulus <a_sempronius_regulus@...>
wrote:
> >
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > Making acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide as a
> > condition of Turkey joining the EU made the Turkish
> > government furious as will a planned NATO
> > acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide if Armenia
> > joins NATO in the future.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44044 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Augustus on fatherhood, according to Dio
Salvete omnes,

Well it would seem that perhaps Augustus' point of view was a lonely
voice in the wilderness. For a time he was on a cleanup campaign
insofar as morals were concerned and he tried brining back
traditional family values. It was said as QFM pointed out to me
once, that the only monogumous people in Rome were the geese. What
made Rome so great and successful for many centuries was her
inclusiveness of other cultures and peoples. When away from Rome,
not being allowed to marry whilst a soldier I am sure that so many
legionaires and civil servants got to the point where boots,
trousers, ugly loin cloths and frightening paint jobs on the
barbarian women began to look like sexy sandals and translucent
stolas in time.

I have often read other commentaries on the British Empire as an
analogy. When the early adventurous traders and adventureres went
into the far off lands to set up trading posts or businesses, they
had the attitudes that the best way to get involved or get along
with the natives was to share their customs, food and bed with the
women. All went well more often than tnot until the big civil
service came in and brought the arrogant attitudes of separation,
white man's burden, not mixing with people a generation out of the
trees and all - things then began to sour and fall apart when it
became us and them. They seemed to have forgotten the old saying,
when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Experience has taught me some lessons in this modern era. When you
go and visit another foreign culture you tend to stand out as being
quite different and a novelty to say the least. If you respect the
people and do what the Romans do you tend to get a lot more interest
and attention than you do within your own culture. Here in my
country dates, dances and great encounters with the opposite sex was
no easy feat at times but in Latin America the nicest people of your
dreams in fact fashion model types would come up to you and chat
away with no fear or noses out of joint at all. In time, under those
circumstances you are bound to encounter someone you'll end up with
and have little patience left for your own internal culture. I also
have known geeky sorts of people who could never even get a dance or
date in our culture but fared very well when they went abroad.

I have heard Augustus' words here in Canada about too much cutural
integration. The problem is that my parent's generation had an
average family of four. The babyboomers, obsessed with huge homes,
two or more vehicles and never leaving home without Amex and 5 other
cards have one, two or no kids. Without new people along with some
possible integration and marriage, who shall pay our old age
security if many other peoples are not brought in to work and
generate taxes?

All in all I see that some ideas, issues and points of view never
change throughout history yet in spite of closed, unique cultures
that come and go, life and the world continues on just the same.


Regards,

QSP






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "appiusclaudiuspriscus"
<appiusclaudiuspriscus@...> wrote:
>
> "...you [fathers] have shown yourselves obedient & are helping to
> replenish the fatherland. ...we came to surpass all mankind not
only
> in the manliness of our citizens but in the size of our population
> as well.
>
> "...For is there anything better than a wife who is chaste,
> domestic, a good housekeeper, a rearer of children;
>
> "...O - what shall I call you [unmarried men]? Men? But you are
> not performing any of the offices of men. ...For you are
committing
> murder in not begetting in the first place those who ought to be
> your descendants; ...you are abolishing your families, which were
> instituted by the Gods...
>
> "Bethink you, therefore, what wrath would justly seize the great
> Romulus, the founder of our race, if he could reflect on the
> circumstances of his own birth & then upon your conduct in
refusing
> to beget children even by lawful marriages! How wrathful would
the
> Romans who were his followers be, if they could realize that after
> they themselves had even seized foreign girls, you are not
satisfied
> even with those of your own race..."
>
>
> Dio's Roman History, Cary transl., Bk. 56, 2-5
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44045 From: Appius Caecilius Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Academic Book Recommendation: Vedic and Roman Cult Parallels
Avete,

I studied under prof. Woodard at the University at Buffalo. He is a very talented scholar and as expert as anyone on these questions-- in addition to being an outstanding speaker. He is a linguist by profession, but has come under the influence of Dumezil. His ideas on this subject are fascinating.

Aulus Sempronius Regulus <a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:
Salvete,

In the past I've posted here on Vedic and Roman ritual
parallels. There is a new forthcoming book coming out
this year that details this parallel even more. It is


Indo-European Sacred Space: Vedic And Roman Cult
Traditions. Univ of Illinois Press (Hardcover), 2006
(not yet released). by Roger D. Woodard


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44046 From: qbianchiusrufinus Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Salve omnes:

Is it true that the byzantines considered themselves, and even
called themselves Romans right up to the end? Where did the
name "Byzantine" come from? Why the distinction between "Byzantine"
and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was indeed truly the "Eastern
Roman Empire", why change the name?


Q. Bianchius Rufinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Aulus Sempronius Regulus
<a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> A few facts about Byzantium,
>
> 1. To maintain a highly trained
> and educated imperial staff,
> Byzantium had Europe's first
> university, the University
> of Constantinople. It was also
> the only university that allowed
> women to attend as well as men.
>
> 2. Byzantium did not go through
> a "dark ages" but preserved the
> literary legacy of classical
> antiquity. Byzantine scholars
> developed the critical apparatus
> that forms the basis of modern
> historical scholarship in sifting
> through variant texts, multiple
> manuscripts, in order to determine
> what the original uncorrupted text
> of a work must have been like.
> They invented, in other words,
> the "critical edition". About all
> the texts we have from antiquity
> we have received from the care
> of Byzantine scholars.
>
> 3. According to several recent
> studies, the Italian Renaissance
> was partly due to northern Italy
> being a Byzantine province and
> the fall of Constantinople brought
> scores of Byzantine scholars as
> emigres to Italian universities
> and academies. In Byzantine culture,
> there was a tolerated but tension-
> filled struggle of ideas and values
> between the religiously conservative
> monks and the Byzantine Neoplatonist
> humanists. With the fall of
> Constantinople, the Greeks under
> Turkish rule consolidated around
> the only institution they had left,
> the Orthodox Church, and the monks
> won out over the humanists. It is
> the Byzantine humanists that mainly
> come to the west. That is one reason
> why, besides Aristotle (Aquinas used
> a more accurate translation from
> Byzantine sources than the Muslims
> had in the Averroist debate) and
> Plato, Marsilio Ficino could also
> translate the Corpus Hermeticum.
>
> 4. Byzantium abolished slavery
> before all other countries.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44047 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
C. Equitius Cato Q. Bianchio Rufino quiritibusque sal.

Salve et salvete.

Bianchius Rufus, the name "Byzantine" comes from the original name of
the little city that St. Constantine I "the Great" turned into
Constantinople, the capital of his empire: Byzantium, named after the
legendary king of that city, Byzas (or "Byzantas"). While Constantine
was alive, the name of the Great City was simply "Nova Roma", or "New
Rome"; it was after his death that the name "Constantinopolis" was
adopted.

One of the earliest (if not actually *the* earliest) uses of the word
to describe the Eastern Roman Empire is found in the plan of
Heironymos Wolf (a student of Melancthon who lived AD 1516-1580) to
produce what he called the "Corpus Byzantinae Historiae"; by the time
of the French historian Du Cange (AD 1610-1688), the term was familiar
enough for him to write the "Historia Byzantina Duplici Commentario
Illustrata".

In the West, the empire was known generally as "The Empire of The
Greeks" or "The Empire of Constantinople", but the inhabitants of that
empire unfailingly referred to themselves as "Romans" and their empire
as the "Basileia Romaeion", a direct Greek translation of "Imperium
Romanum"; the emperor himself was titled "Basileus Romaeioi". The
Eastern Romans made a very clear distinction between "Latins" and
"Romans": those who occupied the territories of the dissolved Western
Empire were "Latins", while they themselves were "Romans".

Vale et valete bene,

Cato


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "qbianchiusrufinus"
<FrBryanReif@...> wrote:
>
> Salve omnes:
>
> Is it true that the byzantines considered themselves, and even
> called themselves Romans right up to the end? Where did the
> name "Byzantine" come from? Why the distinction between "Byzantine"
> and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was indeed truly the "Eastern
> Roman Empire", why change the name?
>
>
> Q. Bianchius Rufinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44048 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-29
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
M. Hortensia A. Sempronio Regulo;
I appreciate your informative post & I did not know
this about Byzantium, at the same time this was the depressing start
of Official State Christianity's battle against the Jews and Pagans.
Just read St. John Chrysostom if you wish to be depressed.
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

Salvete omnes,
>
> A few facts about Byzantium,
>
> 1. To maintain a highly trained
> and educated imperial staff,
> Byzantium had Europe's first
> university, the University
> of Constantinople. It was also
> the only university that allowed
> women to attend as well as men.
>
> 2. Byzantium did not go through
> a "dark ages" but preserved the
> literary legacy of classical
> antiquity. Byzantine scholars
> developed the critical apparatus
> that forms the basis of modern
> historical scholarship in sifting
> through variant texts, multiple
> manuscripts, in order to determine
> what the original uncorrupted text
> of a work must have been like.
> They invented, in other words,
> the "critical edition". About all
> the texts we have from antiquity
> we have received from the care
> of Byzantine scholars.
>
> 3. According to several recent
> studies, the Italian Renaissance
> was partly due to northern Italy
> being a Byzantine province and
> the fall of Constantinople brought
> scores of Byzantine scholars as
> emigres to Italian universities
> and academies. In Byzantine culture,
> there was a tolerated but tension-
> filled struggle of ideas and values
> between the religiously conservative
> monks and the Byzantine Neoplatonist
> humanists. With the fall of
> Constantinople, the Greeks under
> Turkish rule consolidated around
> the only institution they had left,
> the Orthodox Church, and the monks
> won out over the humanists. It is
> the Byzantine humanists that mainly
> come to the west. That is one reason
> why, besides Aristotle (Aquinas used
> a more accurate translation from
> Byzantine sources than the Muslims
> had in the Averroist debate) and
> Plato, Marsilio Ficino could also
> translate the Corpus Hermeticum.
>
> 4. Byzantium abolished slavery
> before all other countries.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44049 From: M.Fatih Algan Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Salve,

Because of the Roman source of Byzantine
Empire, Ottoman was called to citizen of
Constantinopolis "Rum - People of Rome". And when the
Mehmet II captured Constantinopolis in 1453, Ottaman
Emperor was started to use new title "Ruler of Roman
Lands - Sultan-i Iklim-i Rum".

Vale

--- gaiusequitiuscato <mlcinnyc@...> yazdı:

> C. Equitius Cato Q. Bianchio Rufino quiritibusque
> sal.
>
> Salve et salvete.
>
> Bianchius Rufus, the name "Byzantine" comes from the
> original name of
> the little city that St. Constantine I "the Great"
> turned into
> Constantinople, the capital of his empire:
> Byzantium, named after the
> legendary king of that city, Byzas (or "Byzantas").
> While Constantine
> was alive, the name of the Great City was simply
> "Nova Roma", or "New
> Rome"; it was after his death that the name
> "Constantinopolis" was
> adopted.
>
> One of the earliest (if not actually *the* earliest)
> uses of the word
> to describe the Eastern Roman Empire is found in the
> plan of
> Heironymos Wolf (a student of Melancthon who lived
> AD 1516-1580) to
> produce what he called the "Corpus Byzantinae
> Historiae"; by the time
> of the French historian Du Cange (AD 1610-1688), the
> term was familiar
> enough for him to write the "Historia Byzantina
> Duplici Commentario
> Illustrata".
>
> In the West, the empire was known generally as "The
> Empire of The
> Greeks" or "The Empire of Constantinople", but the
> inhabitants of that
> empire unfailingly referred to themselves as
> "Romans" and their empire
> as the "Basileia Romaeion", a direct Greek
> translation of "Imperium
> Romanum"; the emperor himself was titled "Basileus
> Romaeioi". The
> Eastern Romans made a very clear distinction between
> "Latins" and
> "Romans": those who occupied the territories of the
> dissolved Western
> Empire were "Latins", while they themselves were
> "Romans".
>
> Vale et valete bene,
>
> Cato
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> "qbianchiusrufinus"
> <FrBryanReif@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve omnes:
> >
> > Is it true that the byzantines considered
> themselves, and even
> > called themselves Romans right up to the end?
> Where did the
> > name "Byzantine" come from? Why the distinction
> between "Byzantine"
> > and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was indeed
> truly the "Eastern
> > Roman Empire", why change the name?
> >
> >
> > Q. Bianchius Rufinus
>
>
>
>
>
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44050 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: a.d. III Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem III Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"Why is it that, although there are many shrines of Diana in Rome, the
only one into which men may not enter is the shrine in the so‑called
Vicus Patricius?

Is it because of the current legend? For a man attempted to violate a
woman who was here worshipping the goddess, and was torn to pieces by
the dogs; and men do not enter because of the superstitious fear that
arose from this occurrence.


Why do they, as might be expected, nail up stags' horns in all the
other shrines of Diana, but in the shrine on the Aventine nail up
horns of cattle?

Is it because they remember the ancient occurrence? For the tale is
told that among the Sabines in the herds of Antro Curiatius was born a
heifer excelling all the others in appearance and size. When a certain
soothsayer told him that the city of the man who should sacrifice that
heifer to Diana on the Aventine was destined to become the mightiest
city and to rule all Italy, the man came to Rome with intent to
sacrifice his heifer. But a servant of his secretly told the prophecy
to the king Servius, who told Cornelius the priest, and Cornelius gave
instructions to Antro to bathe in the Tiber before the sacrifice; for
this, said he, was the custom of those whose sacrifice was to be
acceptable. Accordingly Antro went away and bathed, but Servius
sacrificed the heifer to Diana before Antro could return, and nailed
the horns to the shrine. This tale both Juba and Varro have recorded,
except that Varro has not noted the name of Antro; and he says that
the Sabine was cozened, not by Cornelius the priest, but by the keeper
of the temple." - Plutarch, "The Roman Questions" 3, 4

"Why do men not marry during the month of May?

Is it because this month comes between April and June, of which they
regard April as sacred to Venus and June as sacred to Juno, both of
them divinities of marriage; and so they put the wedding a little
earlier or wait until later? Or is it because in this month they hold
their most important ceremony of purification, in which they now throw
images from the bridge into the river, but in days of old they used to
throw human beings? Wherefore it is the custom that the Flaminica,
reputed to be consecrate to Juno, shall wear a stern face, and refrain
from bathing and wearing ornaments at this time. Or is it because
many of the Latins make offerings to the departed in this month? And
it is for this reason, perhaps, that they worship Mercury in this
month and that the month derives its name from Maia. Or is May, as
some relate, named after the older (maior) and June after the younger
generation (iunior)? For youth is better fitted for marriage, as
Euripides also says:

'Old age bids Love to take her leave for aye
And Aphrodite wearies of the old.' (Aeolus 23)

They do not, therefore, marry in May, but wait for June which comes
next after May." - op. cit. 86

The festival of Diana continues.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Plutarch
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44051 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Salvete:

Here is an interesting link about John Chrysostom:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html

I think it is good that people read this material and be mindful of the
past.

Valete;

Modianus


On 5/29/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia A. Sempronio Regulo;
> I appreciate your informative post & I did not know
> this about Byzantium, at the same time this was the depressing start
> of Official State Christianity's battle against the Jews and Pagans.
> Just read St. John Chrysostom if you wish to be depressed.
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44052 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: CONVENTUS: Booking
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

(Again apologies if you get this through several different lists.)

A PayPal account has now been set up to receive payments from those who are coming to the Conventus. The account name is:

conventus2759@...

And that is also the e-mail address to write to if you have any queries about payment.

Remember that if you are paying by PayPal you will be charged a transaction fee (but not by us!). Other methods of payment are available.

For further information e-mail C. Moravius Laureatus at:

conventus2759@...

Or visit:

http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/V_Conventus_Novae_Romae
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44053 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Roman Memorial Day
A. Apollonius A. Sempronio omnibusque sal.

Welcome back, A. Semproni. Good to see you again.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44054 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman st
On Fri, 26 May 2006, Lucia Flavia Lectrix wrote:

> -------Originalmeldung-------
>
> Von: dicconf
> Datum: 05/26/06 18:11:53
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] "So what...", was Re: Odinist woman stabbed...
>
> I'm being kind of legalistic here (come to think of it, that's Roman,
> isn't it?) but assault with a deadly weapon is a criminal offense, not a
> civil tort. The public prosecutor decides whether the matter will be
> taken any further. We can only hope that the victim's wishes are
> respected.
>
> -- Publius Livius Triarius
>
> Salve Publi Livi Triari,
> excuse me if I may seem a bit daft, but what does the official prosecution
> of a crime - which will go on anyway - have to do with the victim´s wish
> that her case should not be discussed by thousands of people on the net????
> Respectfully,
> Lucia Flavia Lectrix
>
Very true! We should do so. But several of the posts were worded in such
a way as to suggest that she desired to see the whole matter dropped --
which isn't up to her. Of course we, as private citizens, should restrain
our comments on a case which may come before the official courts.

-- P. Livius Triarius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44055 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
On Mon, 29 May 2006, qbianchiusrufinus wrote:

> Salve omnes:
>
> Is it true that the byzantines considered themselves, and even
> called themselves Romans right up to the end? Where did the
> name "Byzantine" come from? Why the distinction between "Byzantine"
> and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was indeed truly the "Eastern
> Roman Empire", why change the name?

Byzantium was the name of the original village on the site Constantine
chose to develop...sort of like using the word "Shawmut" in Boston. The
"Byzantines" are called that by later historians to distinguish their
feats and fates from that of Old Rome; they themselves never did, and got
quite upset when the Crusaders referred to them as "Byzantines" or "Greeks".

-- Publius Livius Triarius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44056 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
Salvete Tite et omnes,

One thing I notice with quite a few neo-pagan organizations I have
encounterd is an overall lack of knowledge and education in the
leadership. They know some bits and pieces from here and there but
they by no means match up to priests, ministers, rabbis and Inams
who usually have to take four years of study on top of a university
degree. From leaders such as these only minimal information is
passed down to the followers and I never get my questions adequately
answered.

However, in NR we have some good leaders and people with religio
knowledge like Tribune Hortensius, Consul Modianus, GI Scaurus,
Marca Hortensia, M. Cassius etc. who not only have studied the
classical gods but are very well informed or educated in the
Christian and Jewish religions. They could certainly give a lot of
ministers and priests a good run for their money in theological
arguments.

The only thing I find with NR is that the administration does not
come to your or my door and kick it in, begging us to be versed in
the religion, political structure, history of Rome or the learning
of Latin. You have to go to them and keep any eye when courses are
announced or religio get togethers or festivals come up. So far my
experience with NR is that you only get out of her what you put into
it; things are not put on a tray and dropped on your lap. There are
many opportunities in events and courses that are given out but
quite often people have other commitments and personal intrests that
prevent them in time from completing tasks, courses or projects
here.

I summation, we all have to work as individuals to make things
happen and make NR more credible to the eyes of the world; time
spent watching soccer, hockey or football or who got fired from the
Apprentice for example could be better spent reading about the Roman
gods, The Twelve Caesars, memorizing a noun declension or two in
Latin etc. I will also admit that I have certainly failed to set my
priorities at times but NR can only do so much for self motivation.

Regards,

QSP


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia T. Africano Secundo spd;
> Tite Africane, as my good friend reminded me, Nova Roma
is
> legally incorporated as an educational and religious non-profit
> organization.
> I don't think of it as a 'club' at all, but also I as a true
> Roman take a cosmopolitan view that Romans might worship the gods,
> adhere to various philosophies; stoicism, epicureanism,
> pythagoreanism or belong to other cults such as Christianity or
have
> no religious beliefs whatsoever.
> To make Nova Roma otherwise - would be positively unRoman!
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> Marca Hortensia Maior, aedilis plebis
>
> >
> > I think I will set up a Lararium in a clean corner of my room.
I
> > have a statue of Boticceli's Venus, I think it will work.
> >
> > This, by the way, makes me think of something. There are
several
> > citizens complaining that Nova Roma will merely remain
> > an "organization," a "club" or "group." It seems that many do
not
> > take it seriously in fact. I am wondering if Nova Roma could be
> > reformed into a more "religious" and neo-pagan organization, for
> the
> > time being at least. There are numerous neo-pagan groups existing
> > (Hellenic, Celtic, etc), and all seem striving and quite
> successful.
> > If Nova Roma first put more focus on religion (which it is
> supposed
> > to do on the first place, and without suppressing the Republican
> > institutions of course), it will be taken more seriously by
> members
> > and others, and we might then grow into a real political
> > institution.
> >
> > Valete bene,
> >
> > Titus A.S. Flam.
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44057 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: 29 May AD 1453
In a message dated 5/29/2006 8:51:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
from@... writes:
Everybody knows its PROPER name is Miklagard. The Vikings said so and,
as most everybody in Europe knew at the time, what they say goes.

The Romans, on the other hand, called the city in question
Constantinopolis - when not using the name Constantinus originally gave
it, Nova Roma. ;)

Salvete

Konstantinopolis would be the correct pronunciation. When I was there
studying Byzantine maniuscripts, we called it Stanpoli, or Stanpole which was a
Greek bastardization of "the City" which the term most Roman citizens called it,
based on their writings. "Michael's City" it was so called by the Danes since
he was the sitting Imperator when they couldn't take it.
I always morn May 29th.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44058 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: New List: Mithraic Mysteries in Anatolia
Salvete,

While in Armenia, I was able to do quite a lot of
research and visit sites on the
Anatolian-Persian-Kurdish (Medean) cult of Mithra as
background to the Mysteries of Mithras in the Roman
world.

Since part of my education and training is in History
of Religions (Indo-European focus), this will become
part of a article or book. Meanwhile, I plan to start
a new list on the Mysteries of Mithra/Mithras that
focusses on the pre-Roman cult as illuminating
background to the Roman cult. I'll announce the new
list as soon as I figure out how to do it.

A. Sempronius Regulus



Vincit qui se vincit Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. - Horace
MMDCCLIX Anno urbis conditae (AUC)





__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44059 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
M. Hortensia M. Fatih Aglan spd;
ah you just made me remember the great & famous sufi
poet Jalaludin Rumi who was Turkish but wrote in Persian, So was
Turkey considered Rum by Persians!
I'd like to add that the Ottoman Empire was sophisticated and
tolerant - the some of the greatest architects happened to be
Christians, Jews expelled from Spain emigrated to Turkey where they
prospered. Turkish poetry, calligraphy,architecture, hospitals, tile-
making, cuisine were the epitome of elegance, style and art.
vale
M. Hortensia Maior
>

Because of the Roman source of Byzantine
> Empire, Ottoman was called to citizen of
> Constantinopolis "Rum - People of Rome". And when the
> Mehmet II captured Constantinopolis in 1453, Ottaman
> Emperor was started to use new title "Ruler of Roman
> Lands - Sultan-i Iklim-i Rum".
>
> Vale
>
> --- gaiusequitiuscato <mlcinnyc@...> yazdı:
>
> > C. Equitius Cato Q. Bianchio Rufino quiritibusque
> > sal.
> >
> > Salve et salvete.
> >
> > Bianchius Rufus, the name "Byzantine" comes from the
> > original name of
> > the little city that St. Constantine I "the Great"
> > turned into
> > Constantinople, the capital of his empire:
> > Byzantium, named after the
> > legendary king of that city, Byzas (or "Byzantas").
> > While Constantine
> > was alive, the name of the Great City was simply
> > "Nova Roma", or "New
> > Rome"; it was after his death that the name
> > "Constantinopolis" was
> > adopted.
> >
> > One of the earliest (if not actually *the* earliest)
> > uses of the word
> > to describe the Eastern Roman Empire is found in the
> > plan of
> > Heironymos Wolf (a student of Melancthon who lived
> > AD 1516-1580) to
> > produce what he called the "Corpus Byzantinae
> > Historiae"; by the time
> > of the French historian Du Cange (AD 1610-1688), the
> > term was familiar
> > enough for him to write the "Historia Byzantina
> > Duplici Commentario
> > Illustrata".
> >
> > In the West, the empire was known generally as "The
> > Empire of The
> > Greeks" or "The Empire of Constantinople", but the
> > inhabitants of that
> > empire unfailingly referred to themselves as
> > "Romans" and their empire
> > as the "Basileia Romaeion", a direct Greek
> > translation of "Imperium
> > Romanum"; the emperor himself was titled "Basileus
> > Romaeioi". The
> > Eastern Romans made a very clear distinction between
> > "Latins" and
> > "Romans": those who occupied the territories of the
> > dissolved Western
> > Empire were "Latins", while they themselves were
> > "Romans".
> >
> > Vale et valete bene,
> >
> > Cato
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> > "qbianchiusrufinus"
> > <FrBryanReif@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve omnes:
> > >
> > > Is it true that the byzantines considered
> > themselves, and even
> > > called themselves Romans right up to the end?
> > Where did the
> > > name "Byzantine" come from? Why the distinction
> > between "Byzantine"
> > > and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was indeed
> > truly the "Eastern
> > > Roman Empire", why change the name?
> > >
> > >
> > > Q. Bianchius Rufinus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~-->
> > Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning
> > anti spy technology. It's free.
> >
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/wWQplB/TM
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-~->
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! kullaniyor musunuz? http://tr.mail.yahoo.com
> Istenmeyen postadan biktiniz mi? Istenmeyen postadan en iyi
korunma
> Yahoo! Posta’da
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44060 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Salve et salvete,

Rumi was not Turkish but of eastern Iranian stock,
born in Balkh (Afghanistan) in A.H. 604/C.E. 1207.
Both Arabic and Turkish were second-languages to his
native Iranian one.

The Turkish cuisine was originally that of the Central
Asian steppes until coming into contact with the more
mature civilizations (that also converted the Turks to
Islam) that gave them their
Persian-Medean-Armeno-Graco-Syrian cuisine. It is the
Nestorian Christians that first develop hospitals,
tile-making is perfected by the Persians and Armenians
(as is illuminated manuscripts that the Byzantines and
West pick up). The Ottoman empire's architectural
heritage goes back to Byzantine, Persian, and Muslim
architecture. And part of
the Armenian genocide was also a systematic genocide
of Anatolian Jews (many of whom lived in greater
Armenia long before there were Muslims and Christians,
remained safely in Armenia away from late Sassanid
Zoroastrian fanatics in Iran, Christian fanatics in
Byzantium, thrived under the Arabs and Persians, only
to be decimated under the Turks in Anatolia).

--- Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

> M. Hortensia M. Fatih Aglan spd;
> ah you just made me remember the great &
> famous sufi
> poet Jalaludin Rumi who was Turkish but wrote in
> Persian, So was
> Turkey considered Rum by Persians!
> I'd like to add that the Ottoman Empire was
> sophisticated and
> tolerant - the some of the greatest architects
> happened to be
> Christians, Jews expelled from Spain emigrated to
> Turkey where they
> prospered. Turkish poetry, calligraphy,architecture,
> hospitals, tile-
> making, cuisine were the epitome of elegance, style
> and art.
> vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
>
> Because of the Roman source of Byzantine
> > Empire, Ottoman was called to citizen of
> > Constantinopolis "Rum - People of Rome". And when
> the
> > Mehmet II captured Constantinopolis in 1453,
> Ottaman
> > Emperor was started to use new title "Ruler of
> Roman
> > Lands - Sultan-i Iklim-i Rum".
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > --- gaiusequitiuscato <mlcinnyc@...> yazdı:
> >
> > > C. Equitius Cato Q. Bianchio Rufino
> quiritibusque
> > > sal.
> > >
> > > Salve et salvete.
> > >
> > > Bianchius Rufus, the name "Byzantine" comes from
> the
> > > original name of
> > > the little city that St. Constantine I "the
> Great"
> > > turned into
> > > Constantinople, the capital of his empire:
> > > Byzantium, named after the
> > > legendary king of that city, Byzas (or
> "Byzantas").
> > > While Constantine
> > > was alive, the name of the Great City was simply
> > > "Nova Roma", or "New
> > > Rome"; it was after his death that the name
> > > "Constantinopolis" was
> > > adopted.
> > >
> > > One of the earliest (if not actually *the*
> earliest)
> > > uses of the word
> > > to describe the Eastern Roman Empire is found in
> the
> > > plan of
> > > Heironymos Wolf (a student of Melancthon who
> lived
> > > AD 1516-1580) to
> > > produce what he called the "Corpus Byzantinae
> > > Historiae"; by the time
> > > of the French historian Du Cange (AD 1610-1688),
> the
> > > term was familiar
> > > enough for him to write the "Historia Byzantina
> > > Duplici Commentario
> > > Illustrata".
> > >
> > > In the West, the empire was known generally as
> "The
> > > Empire of The
> > > Greeks" or "The Empire of Constantinople", but
> the
> > > inhabitants of that
> > > empire unfailingly referred to themselves as
> > > "Romans" and their empire
> > > as the "Basileia Romaeion", a direct Greek
> > > translation of "Imperium
> > > Romanum"; the emperor himself was titled
> "Basileus
> > > Romaeioi". The
> > > Eastern Romans made a very clear distinction
> between
> > > "Latins" and
> > > "Romans": those who occupied the territories of
> the
> > > dissolved Western
> > > Empire were "Latins", while they themselves were
> > > "Romans".
> > >
> > > Vale et valete bene,
> > >
> > > Cato
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> > > "qbianchiusrufinus"
> > > <FrBryanReif@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve omnes:
> > > >
> > > > Is it true that the byzantines considered
> > > themselves, and even
> > > > called themselves Romans right up to the end?
> > > Where did the
> > > > name "Byzantine" come from? Why the
> distinction
> > > between "Byzantine"
> > > > and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was
> indeed
> > > truly the "Eastern
> > > > Roman Empire", why change the name?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Q. Bianchius Rufinus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > --------------------~-->
> > > Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning
> > > anti spy technology. It's free.
> > >
> >
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/wWQplB/TM
> > >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
___________________________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! kullaniyor musunuz?
> http://tr.mail.yahoo.com
> > Istenmeyen postadan biktiniz mi? Istenmeyen
> postadan en iyi
> korunma
> > Yahoo! Posta’da
> >
>
>
>
>
>


A. Sempronius Regulus



Vincit qui se vincit Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. - Horace
MMDCCLIX Anno urbis conditae (AUC)





__________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44061 From: Aulus Sempronius Regulus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: Yanıt: [Nova-Roma] Re: Remembering Byzantium: a few facts
Salvete,

Now I will state what I think was the Turkish
contribution -- an efficient administrative and
military order that spanned and contained all the
various warring factions since almost recorded history
from the Balkans to throughout much of the Muslim
world.

The recent mess in former Yugoslavia was inherited
from Byzantine and Vatican politics. Turkish rule
was the last to keep the peace there with the
Austro-Hungarian Empire as a not quite skilled
partner.

Apart from oil-wealth throwing the typically
egalitarian values of traditional Islamic culture
into a tail-spin, Turkish rule was the last regime
that was able to keep a pan-Islamic peace without all
the Arab-nationalisms, Talibanisms, Mullahisms, the
current delicate and dangerous three-way chess match
between Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria (with Iraq out),
and the 40s-70s pan-Arab movement (from which the
Baathist originally came but was anti-Turk,
anti-Iranian, anti-Shiate).

--- Aulus Sempronius Regulus
<a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:

> Salve et salvete,
>
> Rumi was not Turkish but of eastern Iranian stock,
> born in Balkh (Afghanistan) in A.H. 604/C.E. 1207.
> Both Arabic and Turkish were second-languages to his
> native Iranian one.
>
> The Turkish cuisine was originally that of the
> Central
> Asian steppes until coming into contact with the
> more
> mature civilizations (that also converted the Turks
> to
> Islam) that gave them their
> Persian-Medean-Armeno-Graco-Syrian cuisine. It is
> the
> Nestorian Christians that first develop hospitals,
> tile-making is perfected by the Persians and
> Armenians
> (as is illuminated manuscripts that the Byzantines
> and
> West pick up). The Ottoman empire's architectural
> heritage goes back to Byzantine, Persian, and Muslim
> architecture. And part of
> the Armenian genocide was also a systematic genocide
> of Anatolian Jews (many of whom lived in greater
> Armenia long before there were Muslims and
> Christians,
> remained safely in Armenia away from late Sassanid
> Zoroastrian fanatics in Iran, Christian fanatics in
> Byzantium, thrived under the Arabs and Persians,
> only
> to be decimated under the Turks in Anatolia).
>
> --- Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> > M. Hortensia M. Fatih Aglan spd;
> > ah you just made me remember the great
> &
> > famous sufi
> > poet Jalaludin Rumi who was Turkish but wrote in
> > Persian, So was
> > Turkey considered Rum by Persians!
> > I'd like to add that the Ottoman Empire was
> > sophisticated and
> > tolerant - the some of the greatest architects
> > happened to be
> > Christians, Jews expelled from Spain emigrated to
> > Turkey where they
> > prospered. Turkish poetry,
> calligraphy,architecture,
> > hospitals, tile-
> > making, cuisine were the epitome of elegance,
> style
> > and art.
> > vale
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> >
> > Because of the Roman source of Byzantine
> > > Empire, Ottoman was called to citizen of
> > > Constantinopolis "Rum - People of Rome". And
> when
> > the
> > > Mehmet II captured Constantinopolis in 1453,
> > Ottaman
> > > Emperor was started to use new title "Ruler of
> > Roman
> > > Lands - Sultan-i Iklim-i Rum".
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > --- gaiusequitiuscato <mlcinnyc@...> yazdı:
> > >
> > > > C. Equitius Cato Q. Bianchio Rufino
> > quiritibusque
> > > > sal.
> > > >
> > > > Salve et salvete.
> > > >
> > > > Bianchius Rufus, the name "Byzantine" comes
> from
> > the
> > > > original name of
> > > > the little city that St. Constantine I "the
> > Great"
> > > > turned into
> > > > Constantinople, the capital of his empire:
> > > > Byzantium, named after the
> > > > legendary king of that city, Byzas (or
> > "Byzantas").
> > > > While Constantine
> > > > was alive, the name of the Great City was
> simply
> > > > "Nova Roma", or "New
> > > > Rome"; it was after his death that the name
> > > > "Constantinopolis" was
> > > > adopted.
> > > >
> > > > One of the earliest (if not actually *the*
> > earliest)
> > > > uses of the word
> > > > to describe the Eastern Roman Empire is found
> in
> > the
> > > > plan of
> > > > Heironymos Wolf (a student of Melancthon who
> > lived
> > > > AD 1516-1580) to
> > > > produce what he called the "Corpus Byzantinae
> > > > Historiae"; by the time
> > > > of the French historian Du Cange (AD
> 1610-1688),
> > the
> > > > term was familiar
> > > > enough for him to write the "Historia
> Byzantina
> > > > Duplici Commentario
> > > > Illustrata".
> > > >
> > > > In the West, the empire was known generally as
> > "The
> > > > Empire of The
> > > > Greeks" or "The Empire of Constantinople", but
> > the
> > > > inhabitants of that
> > > > empire unfailingly referred to themselves as
> > > > "Romans" and their empire
> > > > as the "Basileia Romaeion", a direct Greek
> > > > translation of "Imperium
> > > > Romanum"; the emperor himself was titled
> > "Basileus
> > > > Romaeioi". The
> > > > Eastern Romans made a very clear distinction
> > between
> > > > "Latins" and
> > > > "Romans": those who occupied the territories
> of
> > the
> > > > dissolved Western
> > > > Empire were "Latins", while they themselves
> were
> > > > "Romans".
> > > >
> > > > Vale et valete bene,
> > > >
> > > > Cato
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > "qbianchiusrufinus"
> > > > <FrBryanReif@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve omnes:
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it true that the byzantines considered
> > > > themselves, and even
> > > > > called themselves Romans right up to the
> end?
> > > > Where did the
> > > > > name "Byzantine" come from? Why the
> > distinction
> > > > between "Byzantine"
> > > > > and "Roman"? If the Byzantine Empire was
> > indeed
> > > > truly the "Eastern
> > > > > Roman Empire", why change the name?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Q. Bianchius Rufinus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > > --------------------~-->
> > > > Protect your PC from spy ware with award
> winning
> > > > anti spy technology. It's free.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/wWQplB/TM
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -~->
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
___________________________________________________________________
> > > Yahoo! kullaniyor musunuz?
> > http://tr.mail.yahoo.com
> > > Istenmeyen postadan biktiniz mi? Istenmeyen
> > postadan en iyi
> > korunma
> > > Yahoo! Posta’da
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> A. Sempronius Regulus
>
>
>
> Vincit qui se vincit Astra inclinant, non
> necessitant. - Albinus
> Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. -
> Horace
> MMDCCLIX Anno urbis conditae (AUC)
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


A. Sempronius Regulus



Vincit qui se vincit Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. - Horace
MMDCCLIX Anno urbis conditae (AUC)





__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44062 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Re: campaign at Iowa State Univ.
Salvete!

ISU doesn't require approval for bulletin-board posts, though some
public colleges do. Some bulletin boards are labeled reserved for
this or that; I usually don't fail to avoid those. It's a public
college, so I think anyone can post; I'm a grad student here
anyway. Many of the posts are purely commercial, ads for magazines
for example, so it wouldn't be fair to exclude NR.

Sometimes I'll leave them on seats, no more than 3, usually in the
larger auditoriums, and sometimes on busy countertops or a few on
newsstands, but usually bulletin boards. Hardcopy tells people you
were actually there (that NR actually has an active citizen on
location), and it's in their face so they have to see it.

When I did political work, sometimes I saw stuff I posted ripped
down 10 seconds after, other times up for 3 months. I mailed 3
copies of the flier to Wells over a week ago and no negative comment
so far. It consisted of "people pictures" and concise what-it's-
about excerpts, all from the website, and the web address. That was
all.

Vale,
Appius Claudius Priscus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:
...
> What did the fliers say?
>
> Was there any reason that you chose last week to post them?
>
> Does ISU have a posting policy? They may require approval to post
on
> uni-owned boards.
>
> Thank you for helping to spread info about Nova Roma!
>
> Vale
>
> M. Lucr. Agricola
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44063 From: Pompeia Minucia Strabo Date: 2006-05-30
Subject: Ancient Skeleton Discovered in Rome
Salvete Omnes:

I just bumped into this interesting article


Ancient skeleton discovered in Rome - Yahoo! News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060530/ap_on_sc/italy_ancient_skeleton


Valete
Pompeia Minucia Strabo







---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44064 From: Maior Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: Worship to the gods
M. Hortensia Q. Suetonio Paulino;
thanks for the kind words Pauline. I actually had a bit of
a surprising wake-up as I met some local pagan/druids & really was
rather shocked by their Rablelaisian lifestyle and attitudes. I'd
thought since I subscribed to Buddhist beliefs that easily
translated to polytheist as well. But it just is not so.
So though I like doing research on the Religio I must in all
honesty say that my values are philosophical and in tune with any
Christian, Jewish, Pythagorean, Atheist Nova Roman of similar values!
And yes, I've had lots of clerical friends & love an all-out
discussion:)
bene vale
Marca Hortensia Maior


> One thing I notice with quite a few neo-pagan organizations I have
> encounterd is an overall lack of knowledge and education in the
> leadership. They know some bits and pieces from here and there but
> they by no means match up to priests, ministers, rabbis and Inams
> who usually have to take four years of study on top of a
university
> degree. From leaders such as these only minimal information is
> passed down to the followers and I never get my questions
adequately
> answered.
>
> However, in NR we have some good leaders and people with religio
> knowledge like Tribune Hortensius, Consul Modianus, GI Scaurus,
> Marca Hortensia, M. Cassius etc. who not only have studied the
> classical gods but are very well informed or educated in the
> Christian and Jewish religions. They could certainly give a lot of
> ministers and priests a good run for their money in theological
> arguments.
>
> The only thing I find with NR is that the administration does not
> come to your or my door and kick it in, begging us to be versed in
> the religion, political structure, history of Rome or the learning
> of Latin. You have to go to them and keep any eye when courses are
> announced or religio get togethers or festivals come up. So far my
> experience with NR is that you only get out of her what you put
into
> it; things are not put on a tray and dropped on your lap. There
are
> many opportunities in events and courses that are given out but
> quite often people have other commitments and personal intrests
that
> prevent them in time from completing tasks, courses or projects
> here.
>
> I summation, we all have to work as individuals to make things
> happen and make NR more credible to the eyes of the world; time
> spent watching soccer, hockey or football or who got fired from
the
> Apprentice for example could be better spent reading about the
Roman
> gods, The Twelve Caesars, memorizing a noun declension or two in
> Latin etc. I will also admit that I have certainly failed to set
my
> priorities at times but NR can only do so much for self motivation.
>
> Regards,
>
> QSP
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia T. Africano Secundo spd;
> > Tite Africane, as my good friend reminded me, Nova Roma
> is
> > legally incorporated as an educational and religious non-profit
> > organization.
> > I don't think of it as a 'club' at all, but also I as a true
> > Roman take a cosmopolitan view that Romans might worship the
gods,
> > adhere to various philosophies; stoicism, epicureanism,
> > pythagoreanism or belong to other cults such as Christianity or
> have
> > no religious beliefs whatsoever.
> > To make Nova Roma otherwise - would be positively unRoman!
> > bene vale in pacem deorum
> > Marca Hortensia Maior, aedilis plebis
> >
> > >
> > > I think I will set up a Lararium in a clean corner of my
room.
> I
> > > have a statue of Boticceli's Venus, I think it will work.
> > >
> > > This, by the way, makes me think of something. There are
> several
> > > citizens complaining that Nova Roma will merely remain
> > > an "organization," a "club" or "group." It seems that many do
> not
> > > take it seriously in fact. I am wondering if Nova Roma could
be
> > > reformed into a more "religious" and neo-pagan organization,
for
> > the
> > > time being at least. There are numerous neo-pagan groups
existing
> > > (Hellenic, Celtic, etc), and all seem striving and quite
> > successful.
> > > If Nova Roma first put more focus on religion (which it is
> > supposed
> > > to do on the first place, and without suppressing the
Republican
> > > institutions of course), it will be taken more seriously by
> > members
> > > and others, and we might then grow into a real political
> > > institution.
> > >
> > > Valete bene,
> > >
> > > Titus A.S. Flam.
> > >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44065 From: dicconf Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: New List: Mithraic Mysteries in Anatolia
On Tue, 30 May 2006, Aulus Sempronius Regulus wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> While in Armenia, I was able to do quite a lot of
> research and visit sites on the
> Anatolian-Persian-Kurdish (Medean) cult of Mithra as
> background to the Mysteries of Mithras in the Roman
> world.
>
> Since part of my education and training is in History
> of Religions (Indo-European focus), this will become
> part of a article or book. Meanwhile, I plan to start
> a new list on the Mysteries of Mithra/Mithras that
> focusses on the pre-Roman cult as illuminating
> background to the Roman cult. I'll announce the new
> list as soon as I figure out how to do it.
>
> A. Sempronius Regulus

The existing Mithras list (address above) would also appreciate this
information when it's ready.

-- Publius Livius Triarius
(Dick Eney)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44066 From: gaiusequitiuscato Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: prid. Kal. Iun.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est pridie Kalendas Iunius; haec dies comitialis est.

"The reason for this [coming] month's name's also doubtful:
Choose the one you please from those I offer.
I sing the truth: but some will say I lied,
Believing no deity was ever seen by mortal.
There is a god in us: when he stirs we kindle:
That impulse sows the seeds of inspiration.
I've a special right to see the faces of the gods,
Being a bard, or by singing of sacred things.
There's a dense grove of trees, a place masked
From every sound, except the trickle of water.
There I considered the origin of the month
Just begun, and was thinking about its name.
Behold I saw the goddesses, but not those Hesiod saw,
That teacher of farming, following his Ascraean flock,
Nor those Priam's son, Paris, judged in moist Ida's
Valleys: though one of them was there.
One of them, her own husband's sister:
Juno, it was (I knew her) who stands in Jove's temple.
I shivered, and betrayed myself by speechless pallor:
Then the goddess herself dispelled the fear she'd caused,
Saying: `O poet, singer of the Roman year,
Who dares to tell great things in slender measures,
You've won the right to view a celestial power,
By choosing to celebrate the festivals in your verse.
But so you're not ignorant or led astray by error,
June in fact takes its name from mine.
It's something to have wed Jove, and to be Jove's sister:
I'm not sure if I'm prouder of brother or husband.
If you consider lineage, I was first to call Saturn
Father, I was the first child fate granted to him.
Rome was once named Saturnia, after my father:
This was the first place he came to, exiled from heaven.
If the marriage bed counts at all, I'm called the Thunderer's
Wife, and my shrine's joined to that of Tarpeian Jove.
If his mistress could give her name to the month of May,
Shall a similar honour be begrudged to me?
Or why am I called queen and chief of goddesses?
Why did they place a golden sceptre in my hand?
Shall days (luces) make up the month, and I be called
Lucina from them, yet not name a month myself?
Then I would repent of having loyally shed my anger
Against the race of Electra and the house of Dardanus.
I had twin cause for anger: I grieved at Ganymede's abduction,
And my beauty was scorned by that judge, on Ida.
I would repent of not favouring Carthage's walls,
Since my chariot and my weapons are there:
I would repent of having granted Rome rule of Sparta,
And of Argos, Mycenae, and ancient Samos:
And of old Tatius, and the Faliscans who worship me,
Whom I allowed to fall prey to the Romans.
But let me not repent, no race is dearer to me: here
I'm worshipped: here I occupy a shrine with my dear Jove.
Mavors himself said to me: `I entrust these walls
To you. You'll have power in your grandson's city.'
His words are fulfilled: I'm worshipped at a hundred altars,
And my month is the not the least of my honours.
Nevertheless not merely Rome does me that honour,
But the neighbouring townsmen treat me the same.
Look at the calendar of wooded Aricia,
Of the Laurentines, and my own Lanuvium:
They've a month of June. Look at Tiber,
And the sacred walls of the goddess at Praeneste:
You'll read of Juno's month. Romulus didn't found them:
But Rome, it's true, is the city of my grandson.'
Juno ended. I looked back: Hebe, Hercules' wife,
Stood there, with youthfulness in her look.
She said: `If my mother commanded me to leave heaven,
I wouldn't stay, against my mother's will.
And I won't argue now about the name of the month:
I'll persuade and act the petitioner's role,
I'd prefer to maintain my rights by prayer alone.
Perhaps you'll take my side yourself.
My mother occupies the golden Capitol, and shares
The summit shrine, as is right, with Jove himself.
While all my glory comes from the month's name,
My only honour, one with which they tease me.
What harm, Roman, in your granting the name
Of a month to Hercules' wife: posterity agreeing?
This land owes me something too, because of my great
Husband: here he drove the cattle he captured,
Here Cacus, badly protected by his father's gift of fire,
Stained the Aventine earth with his blood.
But back to my point. Romulus organised the people,
Dividing them into two parts, according to age:
One was ready to give advice, the other to fight:
One decided on war, while the other waged it.
So he decreed, and divided the months likewise:
June for the young (iuvenes): the month before for the old.'
She spoke. And in the heat of the moment they might have
Quarrelled, and anger disguised true affection:
But Concord came, her long hair twined with Apollo's laurel,
A goddess, and the dear care of our pacific leader.
When she'd told how Tatius and brave Romulus,
And their two kingdoms and people had merged,
And fathers- and sons-in-law made a common home,
She said: `The month of June gets its name from
Their union (iunctus).' So three reasons were given.
Goddesses, forgive me: it's not for me to decide.
Leave me, equally. Troy was ruined by judging beauty:
Two goddesses can harm, more than one may delight." - Ovid, Fast VI

"First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympos made a Golden
Race of mortal men who lived in the time of Saturn [Kronos] when he
was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of
heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not
on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with
feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as
though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things;
for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without
stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good
things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods." - Hesiod, Works
and Days 109

"Aetas Aurea (the Golden Age) was that first age which unconstrained,
with heart and soul, obedient to no law, gave honour to good faith and
righteousness. No punishment they knew, no fear; they read no
penalties engraved on plates of bronze; no suppliant throng with dread
beheld their judge; no judges had they then, but lived secure. No pine
had yet, on its high mountain felled, descended to the sea to find
strange lands afar; men knew no shores except their own. No
battlements their cities yet embraced, no trumpets straight, no horns
of sinuous brass, no sword, no helmet then - no need of arms; the
world untroubled lived in leisured ease. Tellus willingly, untouched,
ynot wounded yet by hoe or plough, gave all her bounteous store; men
were content with nature's food unforced, and gathered strawberries on
the mountainside and cherries and the clutching bramble's fruit, and
acorns fallen from Jove's spreading tree. Springtime it was, always,
for ever spring; the gentle zephyrs with their breathing balm caressed
the flowers that sprang without a seed; anon the earth untilled
brought forth her fruits, the unhallowed fields lay gold with heavy
grain, and streams of milk and springs of nectar flowed and yellow
honey dripped from boughs of green. When Saturnus [Kronos] fell to
dark Tartara and Jove reigned upon the earth, the Proles Argentea
(Silver Race) replaced the Gold, inferior, yet in worth above he tawny
bronze." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 1.88

Today is the last day of the festival in honor of Diana.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Hesiod
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44067 From: qbianchiusrufinus Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: HBO's Series "ROME"
Salve omnes:

Has anyone been following HBO's series "ROME"? If so, how would you
rate it? Is this something worth buying when released on DVD?

Q. Bianchius Rufinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44068 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: HBO's Series "ROME"
In a message dated 5/31/2006 2:57:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
FrBryanReif@... writes:
Has anyone been following HBO's series "ROME"? If so, how would you
rate it? Is this something worth buying when released on DVD?

If its under 80.00 for the 3 disks I believe it is.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 44069 From: appiusclaudiuspriscus Date: 2006-05-31
Subject: Re: Fwd: Pagan Victory in English Court Law EDITED POST
Salvete omnes!

While I applaud this victory, nowadays the government's only "God" is "Political Correctness". I was just expelled from Nova Roma for refusing to worship that "God".

Valete,

Appius Claudius Priscus

**********************************************************************
Moderator's note:

I have edited Appius Claudius Priscus post to remove communication that was between him and the Censors and Consuls of Nova Roma.

He has NOT been expelled from Nova Roma but he was asked to voluntarily resign to avoid any public discord.

If he wants to explain why he can.

Any expulsions and loss of citizenship from Nova Roma will be conducted according to law.

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Praetor