Salve Marce Octavi,

Very nice. Thanks!

Laenas

Salve, excelent Horatii

Wonderful comment, but just a few remarks:

This text is a generic one. The evolutive nature fo the magistrature surely
must be taken into account. In general, the model of ´Roman Republic´ we
have are the magistratures by the Second Punic War. Based on this ´average´
we have our model of ´ordinarii´. Even own Caesar created, for exemple, new
aediles for grain distribution. For ´didatic´ purposes, for exemple, I
really would feel better tring to not explain the ´militar tribunes with
consular power´ or the ´decenviri´ before explain the normal ordinarii
magistrates.

Are you sure that Iunius Brutus was a plebeain? I think he was a patrician,
because we even had some blood ties with the royal family... And, if even
originally gens Iunia was ´plebeain´ it may be raised to be patrician by the
kings (the main priest of the state, and having the Imperium Maior passed to
the consules, from with the censor potestas was taken). This is a subject
worthy to check it out. All patricians were ´plebeians´ outcasts from other
places addopted on the city by Romulus. Except to some, like sabin Clausus,
founder of gens Claudia, and the etruscus Tarquinius, ´patricians´ even on
motherland.

But the curule magistratures always open to plebeians? This goes against
what Fustel de Coulan in ´Ancient City´ said, and my textbook. The plebeians
weren´t allowed to the curules magistratures because they lack the domestic
religio only the patricians had. So, the gods of the city, to recognize the
magistrate in the magistrature, had to recognize a citizen ´recognized´ by
its own family gods, the ancestors and its family lararium. The Sainctitas
of the TP and PA were a ´answer´ to this ´religious impeachment´ of curule
magistratures (which felt with time, even the religious feeling and the
political force to impose)

Alas, Livius said the plebeians didn´t desired to elect consules after a
great long time of ´tribunii with consular powers´ because they wouldn´t be
allowed to that magistrature.

(I lack of references. Much I say, I know I´ve read somewhere, but surely I
haven´t the textbook to search the exact piece)

Anyway, all text I will put here with time comes from Harpers on Perseus
Online Library. It is a 1898 textbook, so, perhaps, modern Historians have
discovered something to add.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus


2006/8/24, marcushoratius <mhoratius@...>:

>
> Salve Fauste
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@...> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
> > ***
> >
> > 1. Historical Development. In the early Republic the only regular
> or
> > ordinary magistrates were the consuls and the quaestors; the only
> > extraordinary magistrates the dictator and his lieutenant.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Appi Cicero

Earlier you wrote on the Comitia Centuriata list:

ACC: There was a lex (Clodia?) against who killed someone without
provocatio. I know Cicero's proposal to Senatus of necare Catilina's
friends, but I don't think there was a senatusconsultum as a
iudicium; anyway that lex (Clodia?) gave the exile and the
provocatio was linked to a iudicium. Do you know some case of
capitis deminutio because of Senatus "decreta"?<<<

Cicero tried to claim that the Senate had a power to issue a senatus
consultus ultimum that superceded Roman rights and allowed a consul
then to execute Roman citizens without trial and without allowing
them their traditional right to provocatio. He claimed that such
measures were passed against Tiberius Gracchus, Gaius Gracchus, and
Apuleius Saturninus. None of his claims were ever true.

First, Tiberius Gracchus came from the very highest elite among the
elite of Rome. He was supported by the elite of the elite, the
consulares among the Senate, as well as by lower elements of the
equites and by the first class. He was opposed by a middle group
among the equites. The majority of the Senate, and both consules of
the time, his mentor Scipio Aemilianus Africanus and Mucius
Scaevola, supported Tiberius Gracchus as did the leading member of
the Senate, Appius Claudius, who was Tiberius Gracchus' father-in-
law. In fact Aemilianus had earlier made the very same proposal
before the Senate as Tiberius Gracchus was to do, which was that an
ancient law be enforced. The majority of the Senate had supported
the measure. But in that era the Senate tried to act by consensus,
so when a faction opposed Aemilianus plan, he withdrew the
proposal. Scaevola, his brother Pontifex Maximus P Licinius Crassus
Mucianus, and Appius Claudius had urged him to press reform anyway.
Later then it was decided to bring the measure to the People to
decide. Tiberius Gracchus was selected by these leading members of
the Senate to do just that. When he assembled the comitia to hear
the proposal, a minority faction of the Senate, led by Cornelius
Nasica went to Consul Scaevola asking that he stop Tiberius
Gracchus. Scaevola refused. Nasica the led his gang to murder
Tiberius Gracchus.

The aftermath is telling. naturally riots broke out after the
murder of Tiberius Gracchus. This was the first instance where the
sanctitas of a Tribunus Plebis had been violated. Scaevola took
measures against the rioters. cicero posed that this was done under
an SCU against Tiberius Gracchus. No such measure had been passed.
Scaevola is known for prosecuting followers of Gracchus, as they
were rioting and Nasica's followers were probably dead or in hiding
by then. The Senate sent Nasica himself away, an unprecedent step
as he was the pontifex maximus. In effect it was a sentence of
exile, but it was not done by a judicial decision and was instead
posed as a diplomatic mission. Tiberius' plebiscita was put into
effect, a board of land commissioners established to impliment the
law. Later, those involved in conducting a pogrom against Gracchus'
followers were prosecuted by his brother Gaius. The whole idea that
the Senate ever passed an SCU against Tiberius Gracchus or his
followers was a falsehood.

The first passage of a senatus consultus de re defendenda came in
the aftermath of the murder of Gaius Gracchus. Again it was posed
by Cicero that the Senate's measure was made against Gaius Gracchus
himself. But instead it seems to have been passed when rioting
again broke out over his murder and was not the actual cause that
led to his death. Gaius Gracchus, like his brother, was supported
by the leading members of the Senate. Both of the Gracchi were
introducing reform from the elite of society, mainly to benefit the
equites. They included measures to benefit some of the lower
classes as well, in order to gain their support in the comitia, but
the whole idea that the Gracchi represented a revolution of the
lower classes is false. Their measures caused a division within the
Senate, and therefore in the senatorial class among the equites, but
it was the highest and the lowest elements of the Senate that
supported the Gracchi, so I don't think anyone can rightly pose that
a majority of the Senate would have passed measures against either
of the Gracchi.

In the year 100 BCE followers of Saturninus had gathered at his home
on the Capitoline Hill. This was only normal, that the People
should gather at the home of a Tribunus Plebis, especially when
there was some strife that might threaten his sanctitas. Cicero
posed this as a plebeian seizure of the Capitoline Hill - just one
of his many falsehoods. The Senate passed an SC de re publica
defendenda authorizing consul Marius to prevent any disturbances.
He gave Saturninus safe passage to meet with the Senate. A faction
of the Senate then murdered Saturninus, riots again broke out, and
measures were taken to end the rioting. Once again prosecutions
were made before tribunals. An SCU or a SC de re publica defendenda
did not authorize a consul or anyone else to suspend the rights of
citizens, as Cicero claimed.

In 63 BCE Cicero defended Rabirius on charges stemming from the
riots of 100 BCE. Rabirius had participated in the attacks on
Saturninus' followers, and he even kept Saturninus' head as a
trophy. It was here, before the Comitia Centuriata, assembled by
Tribunus Plebis Labienus who was acting as prosecutor, that Cicero
first made his public claims on an SCU. It should be remembered,
though, that Cicero lost that case. Proceedings were suspended, so
Rabirius was never crucified or otherwise punished, but the point
was made that Cicero's interpretation of an SCU was wrong.

Later that same year, in 63 BCE, Cicero asked the Senate to pass an
SC de re publica defendenda authorizing him to act in the matter of
Catalina. Odd that Catalina remained in the City afterward and that
Cicero took no action against him. Later still Cicero arrested six
men, claiming that they were in league with Catalina as
conspirators. The evidence against them was a letter, which has
come down to us, and it appears that the charges were false. At any
rate, Cicero then had them executed, but he did not have
authorization from the Senate to do so, and he had no authorization
to suspend their rights to a trial or to provocatio.

In 58 BCE the plebiscitum Clodia to which you refer was passed, and
was used to send one of Cicero's allies into exile. Rather than
face trial himself, Cicero fled into self exile.

In 52 BCE Cicero prepared a speech on behalf of Milo, in which he
again asserted the power of a consul under an SCU to suspend the
rights of Romans. It should be remembered though that Cicero never
delivered that speech. Milo was convicted and sent into exile. The
version we have where Cicero made his assertions was written after
the trial.

No matter what you may read in Cicero to justify his own illegal
actions, the Senate never had a power to issue a senatus consultus
ultima, and a senatus consultus de re defendednda never authorized a
consul to suspend the constitution or suspend the rights of Roman
citizens to trial or to a right of provocatio. Cicero even refers
to the lex Sempronia that specifically prohibited suspension of such
rights. A consul in the field with his army had such powers over
Roman citizens, but not inside the City. A Magister Populi (or what
we now call a dictator) had such powers in the City, but that office
had fallen out of use before the Middle Republic. Sulla then
created the office of Dictator to give name to his usurption of
power, and a lex Valeria suspended the right of provocatio to those
who were proscibed by Sulla. Cicero's arguments on an SCU really
went back to Sulla's actions, but he tried to falsely pose them as
earlier by projecting them back in time when they did not exist.

Vale
Piscinus

Salve!
I'm trying to find any information on the "Legiones Urbanae".
Any help would be most helpfull.


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 8/24/2006 5:52:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
legere_umbrae@... writes:

Salve!
I'm trying to find any information on the "Legiones Urbanae".
Any help would be most helpfull.



Well you could argue that any Roman legio drawn from Rome was a legiones
urbanae, are you sure you are not talking about Cohortes Urbanae, the city
cohorts?

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds pretty interesting. Will most of the participants be outfitted in complete attire. I contacted a website named www.periodportraits.com and they said they were going to attend so they could launch a series focused on earlier periods than their recent focus.

I also reached out to several others in europa and they expressed alot of interest for the event. I can't wait!!!!


Legion XXIV <legionxxiv@...> wrote:

VICESIMA QUARTA
The Newsletter of
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA ATLANTIA

AUGUST 2006 ADDENDUM

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Praefectus - Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073-3014
610-353-4982
legionxxiv@... www.legionxxiv.org

Commilitones:

The following was not included in the recent Vicesima Quarta issue.

AD SIGNA FOR THE COLUMBUS DAY PARADE OCT 9
Anthony Sama, the Coordinator for the Annual New York Columbus Day parade, is interested in having a Roman Legionary contingent march in the Parade down 5th Avenue, on Monday, Oct 9, Noon to about 3pm. Arrival would be 10 to 11AM for preparation and getting to the step-off point.
The parade in NYC is the single biggest celebration of Italian culture and history, not only in New York and across the nation, but also in the world. The Parade is televised in New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and internationally across Italy and parts of Europe. They are asking for a legion not only of infantry, but also of civilians and merchants. Please respond and let me know if you would be interested in taking part in displaying the glory of ancient Rome in this great traditional event. It would be expected that the various Legions of the East - III, IV, IX, XX, XXIV, XXX - would join together or possibly form a couple of units, depending on the needs of the parade and coordinator.
The coordinator and contact person is Anthony Sama of the Columbus Citizens Foundation, Inc. 8 East 69th Street New York, NY 10021 Phone: 212.249.9923 x242 Fax: 212.737.4413
It may be best if the various Roman units would work and coordinate through one lead person? - that we would decide on, rather than acting on our own as individuals and separate units?

Looking forward to being with you in what could well become a great annual demonstration of Roman reenactment in the U.S.

Vires et Honos - Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz, Praefectus / Commander - Legion XXIV MA legionxxiv@...

Don't forget these other upcoming events:

CALL TO ARMS - FORT WAYNE EVENT - SEPT 2 - 3
Members, particularly of our Mid-West Vexillation, are being "Called to Arms" for an event to take place at Historic Fort Wayne, SE Detroit, MI on Labor Day weekend, Sept. 2 and 3. The event will feature displays, missile weapons, equipment and most anything else Roman. All impressions from early Greek times to the 10th c. are encouraged and most welcome. Contact John Shook at Starbulldog@... to reserve a campsite and/or display area.
Let's support John in this endeavor.

CALL FOR DEFENSE OF FORT NO. 4 - OCT 14 - 15
Eric Jadaszewski, jrjada@..., is calling the Legion "To Arms" for the 2nd Annual Time Line event at the Fort at No. 4 in Charlestown, NH on Oct 14, 15, 2006. The Fort is a very reenactor friendly site, scenic, has good facilities and always a lot of fun. Please contact Him and your Commander if you expect to attend. Mark your calendars and more details should follow. Legion XXIV will have a presence at this event and participation by our members is earnestly desired.

LEGION XX FALL ENCAMPMENT
Legio XX will have its usual Fall Encampment at Marietta Mansion on September 9-10, 2006. The site will be open to the public from 10 AM to 4 PM both days. While other Romans and non-Romans are welcome to come out and perform, it is their "small and casual" weekend, not a replay of Roman Days. There is no set schedule of activities--they will do some marching around and pilum-tossing whenever there is an audience to watch. Anyone who is not a member of Legio XX and would like to participate should contact Susan Wolfe, the site manager at Marietta, 301-464-5291, Susan.Wolfe@... See you there!

UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS for LEGION XXIV and OTHER EVENTS for 2006

*** Sept 9 - 10 Legion XX Fall Encampment, Marietta Mansion, Glenn Dale MD 10-4

*** Sept 30 Outdoor Lecture-Demo, Dickenson Col, Carlisle, PA 12N - 2PM

*** Oct 9 Columbus Day Parade, New York City Noon - 3PM

*** Oct 14 - 15 Time Line Event, Fort No.4, Charlestown, NH

*** Mar 22 - 25 Defense of Fort Lafe, Lafe, AR a total immersion event, closed to the public, with a gate house, towers, walls and bunk house.

Thanking you for your continued support of Legion XXIV, I remain;

Yours in the Bonds of Ancient Rome

Gallio / George ** Quintus / David

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

As a great Roman community I feel we need to watch out for one
another. I would just like to point out that I have been getting
some of these letters the last few months which are just another
type of scam for id theft etc. I shall be fowarding this one to the
FBI and RCMP as it looks convincing and may fool some people.
I have an ebay account but never have used it at all.

Valete bene,

QSP

Dear eBay Seller:
John Abbot ( us055504( 27) ) has informed eBay that they have not
yet received the item purchased under Paypal payment

There are many reasons why this might have happened. Perhaps the
item is still in transit, the payment has not yet cleared, or maybe
it was accidentally sent to the wrong address. In addition, buyers
can sometimes have unrealistic expectations about how much time it
can take for payment, postage and delivery. As a result, no action
is being taken by eBay at this time.

However, it's important to remember that when you sell an item on
eBay you're agreeing to a contract between you and the buyer. If you
don't send an item that a buyer has purchased you may be committing
fraud.

Most Item Not Received disputes can be solved with direct
communication between the buyer and seller, and we encourage you to
work with your trading partner to resolve this situation. Click the
link below to view and reply to the information submitted by the
buyer.

Respond to this notification

If you don't respond by 20-Aug-2006 the buyer may elect to escalate
this matter to a reimbursement claim.

Learn more about eBay's Item Not Received or Significantly Not as
Described Process.

You can view the status of this dispute at any time by visiting your
Dispute Console, which is accessible here:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewDisputeConsole&DisputeType=3

Thank you for your patience and co-operation.


Regards,
eBay

Salve

As to the Cohorts Urbanae, i do not know as i have not heard of them.
I have found many referances to the Urban Legion over the years.
I can find no info past the name and that there was four legions.

QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
In a message dated 8/24/2006 5:52:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
legere_umbrae@... writes:

Salve!
I'm trying to find any information on the "Legiones Urbanae".
Any help would be most helpfull.

Well you could argue that any Roman legio drawn from Rome was a legiones
urbanae, are you sure you are not talking about Cohortes Urbanae, the city
cohorts?

Q. Fabius Maximus









---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

One thing to remember about getting mail claiming to be from eBay
_they never use your name_. I've gotten tons of scam e-mail's
supposedly from eBay and they have never used my name(eBay says
anything from them will have your name not "Dear eBay Seller" or
whatever). Also, every scam e-mail sent to me never has had my real e-
mail addy I use on eBay. Heck, I've had scam mail come to my
Servilius-Priscus address that I NEVER have used on eBay. The same
thing happens with my Premium PayPal account too. I report all scam
eBay mail to spoof@... when I get them.

Vale,
Quintus Servlius Priscus


On Aug 25, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly) wrote:

Salvete omnes,

As a great Roman community I feel we need to watch out for one
another. I would just like to point out that I have been getting
some of these letters the last few months which are just another
type of scam for id theft etc. I shall be fowarding this one to the
FBI and RCMP as it looks convincing and may fool some people.
I have an ebay account but never have used it at all.

Valete bene,

QSP

Dear eBay Seller:
John Abbot ( us055504( 27) ) has informed eBay that they have not
yet received the item purchased under Paypal payment

There are many reasons why this might have happened. Perhaps the
item is still in transit, the payment has not yet cleared, or maybe
it was accidentally sent to the wrong address. In addition, buyers
can sometimes have unrealistic expectations about how much time it
can take for payment, postage and delivery. As a result, no action
is being taken by eBay at this time.

However, it's important to remember that when you sell an item on
eBay you're agreeing to a contract between you and the buyer. If you
don't send an item that a buyer has purchased you may be committing
fraud.

Most Item Not Received disputes can be solved with direct
communication between the buyer and seller, and we encourage you to
work with your trading partner to resolve this situation. Click the
link below to view and reply to the information submitted by the
buyer.

Respond to this notification

If you don't respond by 20-Aug-2006 the buyer may elect to escalate
this matter to a reimbursement claim.

Learn more about eBay's Item Not Received or Significantly Not as
Described Process.

You can view the status of this dispute at any time by visiting your
Dispute Console, which is accessible here:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewDisputeConsole&DisputeType=3

Thank you for your patience and co-operation.


Regards,
eBay








Yahoo! Groups Links

A. Apollonius M. Moravio L. Arminio sal.

M. Moravi amice, you're quite right to point out the difference between the early and middle republican office of dictator and the Sullan creation, but you go too far by suggesting that the early version was not called "dictator" at all: it certainly was. The word is found in Ennius and Cato, and in archaic inscriptions. "Magister populi" appears to be a very early variant, but "dictator" became the standard name.

As for the question of patricians and plebejans, I think it's important to say that the position which you're stating as if it were plain fact is actually a theory (that of Cornell). It's a very compelling theory and one to which I subscribe, but we must still make clear that it is not universally accepted. Moreover, "Iunius Brutus was a plebeian" is too bald a statement. We can say that all the Junii Bruti of whom we have clear evidence were plebejans. No source states unequivocally that he was a plebejan. However, the only reason we have to think that he was a patrician is that he held the consulate. Since Cornell's theory is that the consulate was not originally closed to plebejans, Brutus' supposed patrician status is inadmissable. But we can't go so far as to say that he definitely wasn't a patrician: merely that there is no reason to think that he was.

On the other hand, L. Armini amice, Brutus' close ties to the royal family don't help to prove that he was patrician, because (as Piscinus points out) there is actually no evidence at all to suggest that the kings themselves were patricians. In fact all the evidence suggests that they were not. In later times the Tullii, the Pompilii, the Marcii, and the Hostilii were all plebejans. The kings of Rome were all outsiders, not members of the Roman aristocracy.

However, this all has to do with the very murky early period. I think L. Arminius is absolutely right to say that in the periods for which we have solid evidence the aediles plebis and the tribuni plebis had to be plebejan. The coopted tribuni of 448 were in several ways anomalous. They were, for one thing, coopted, which no tribuni plebis ever were again. In all probability cooptation is the only way patricians could have become tribuni; so the abolition of cooptatio prevented patricians ever becoming tribuni plebis again. Certainly we have absolutely no evidence of it ever happening again after that, and if it were possible it would surely have happened at least once or twice.

The point about patricians being adopted into plebejan families is true, but it in no way proves that patricians could become tribuni plebis; on the contrary, it proves the opposite. If patricians could be tribuni plebis then there would be no need for them to get themselves adopted by plebejans. One can't say that a patrician who has been adopted into a plebejan family and then becomes tribunus plebis is an example of a patrician tribunus plebis because once he has been adopted he ceases to be patrician. It's quite true to say that many tribuni plebis were nobiles, but they were plebejan nobiles.

Salve,

>As to the Cohorts Urbanae, i do not know as i have not heard of them.
>I have found many referances to the Urban Legion over the years.
>I can find no info past the name and that there was four legions.

I have seen the original four Republican Legions refered to as the Urban Legions, as they were the Consular armies made up entirely of landed Roman citizens who were only soldiers when called upon. I'm not sure if those are the legions you are looking for, since there were units designated as "legiones urbanae" and raised specifically to defend cities.

Vale bene,
Artoria


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Fauste

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

>

<snipped>> Are you sure that Iunius Brutus was a plebeain? I think
he was a patrician,

> because we even had some blood ties with the royal family... And,

if even

> originally gens Iunia was ´plebeain´ it may be raised to be

patrician by the

> kings (the main priest of the state, and having the Imperium Maior

passed to

> the consules, from with the censor potestas was taken). This is a

subject

> worthy to check it out. All patricians were ´plebeians´ outcasts

from other

> places addopted on the city by Romulus. Except to some, like

sabin Clausus,

> founder of gens Claudia, and the etruscus Tarquinius,

´patricians´ even on

> motherland.
>

MMP: The whole point of bringing in kings from other places was
that they were not patricians. That Brutus was related to a royal
only further supports that he was plebeian, as were the Marcii,
related to Numa. We do not really know what the origin of the
distinction between patricians and plebeians was. It probably dated
back into the Regal. It probably had to do with who the king chose
as his advisors in the Senate. But membership in the Senate was not
fixed. There was not then a heritary senatorial class.

> But the curule magistratures always open to plebeians?

MMP: A matter of interpretation isn't it? Among the first consules
(or praetores), between 509 to 445 BCE, 20 out of sixty designated
as consules were plebeian. Either the distinction between plebeians
and patricians did not yet exist or magisterial offices were
originally open to plebeians. It does seem to be the case that a
patrician class was more narrowly defined after the Republic was
established and also that they then attempted to close out other
families as plebeian from holding offices.

This goes against

> what Fustel de Coulan in ´Ancient City´ said, and my textbook. The

plebeians

> weren´t allowed to the curules magistratures because they lack the

domestic

> religio only the patricians had. So, the gods of the city, to

recognize the

> magistrate in the magistrature, had to recognize a citizen

´recognized´ by

> its own family gods, the ancestors and its family lararium.

MMP: No, this is not true. Such an argument appears in Livy time
and again, and each time it is rejected by the Roman people as
untrue. Livy 4.6.2-3, has the consuls delivering the argument of
the patricians as "because no plebeian has the auspices, and that is
the reason the decemvirs had forbidden intermarriage, lest the
auspices should be confounded by uncertain standing of those born to
them." However, "at this the plebeianss blazed with great
indignation, because it was declared that they could not take
auspices, as though they were hated by the immortal Gods." It is a
very "patrician" bias to interpret Livy by posing only the patrician
argument and not to consider what the actual outcome was in each
case that this false argument was made. Look at the speech made by
Canuleius (Livy 4.3-5). Romulus took the auspices but he was not a
patrician. Numa Pompilius took the auspices but he was not a
patrician (Livy 4.4.10-11), nor was his grandson, and the Tarquins
were not only not patricians, they were Corinthian immigrants
($.3.11), and certainly not any of the other kings were patrician
either. Then too Brutus, Cassius, the Minucii, Genucii and other
plebeians had served as consules and had taken the auspices before
Appius Claudius made this false claim. Canuleius says, what "we
propose is nothing novel, but ask that a right belonging to the
Roman people be reclaimed and reinstated; namely that the people may
bestow office on those it wishes." The Peopla had chosen in the
matter of kings and consules earlier, and had chosen plebeians in
the past. Canuleius also pointed out that the law against
intermarriage, which he sought to over turn, had only been recently
made. There had not been an exclusion before the decimvirs tried to
create one. If what you say were true, that the distinction between
patricians from plebeians was based on religion and that only
patricians could take the auspices, and that this religious
authority to communicate with the Gods would in any way be lessened
by marrying plebeians, then the exclusion would have existed before
the Decemvirs.

And how on earth can you claim that plebeians had no household Gods,
or ancestores, or that they did not have a family cultus honoring
their Lares? If you go back to a place like Gabii, where Latin
graves date back as far as 1000 BCE, it can be seen that distinct
differences existed between one family cultus from another, side by
side in the same burial area. But there is nothing that can suggest
that a difference between a patrician and a plebeian cultus. Or if
you go to Tibur, there is an area of very early graves that be
distinguished as related to Sabine graves, in as much as these were
set into areas surrounded by stones. But nothing really
distinguishes their grave goods as Sabine from Latin, or as
patrician and plebeian. The distinction would not even have existed
for at least another 500 years. But they had descendants. They had
descendants who maintained their cultus. Do you think that the
Minucii who gave Rome four consules before 445 BCE did not honor
their ancestores? Or the Genucii who gave Rome consules, and later
tribunes, you think they did not have Lares of great distinction
that they honored in a family cultus? And the Marcii, who had given
Rome two kings, the founders of Rome's religious institutions, they
did not honor their Lares? Their ancestores were not close to the
Gods, when Numa spoke directly with Jupiter as no other king, and
certainly no patrician ever had? Or did the Iunii not honor their
ancestor, the First Consul of Rome? Look again at the religious
calendar and the cycle of festivals for the Lares. There is no
distinction made that had those festivals as patrician and not
plebeian as well.

Then there is also the fact that notable patricians like the Valerii
and Horatii supported the claims of the plebeians. They had led the
patricians in ousting the Tarquins, defended Verginius, overthrew
the Decemviri, and when Gaius Claudius called upon the Senate to
send armed men against Canuleius, the Valerii, Horatii, and even the
Quinctii did not support the extreme and false claims of patrician
privileges as the Claudii posed. Why, if there was such a
distinction of patricians as the only ones able to take the
auspices, or the only ones who had family culti, would patricians be
divided on plebiscita to restore what the plebeians had earlier
shared in with patricians?

The Sainctitas

> of the TP and PA were a ´answer´ to this ´religious impeachment´

of curule

> magistratures (which felt with time, even the religious feeling

and the

> political force to impose)
>

MMP: The sanctitas of plebeian officers was due to a vow made by
plebeians with the Gods to defend their persons from any harm. The
Gods couldn't recognize plebeians citizens, so you claim, because
they didn't have a domestic religio with Lares recognizing them, and
thus didn't have Lares acting as intermediaries between the plebeian
citizens with the Gods, but the plebeians could then extend
sanctitas to plebeian officers by making vows to the Gods? You see
how that cannot be true? The sanctitas has to come from the Gods,
and therefore They must recognize and accept the vow, and of course
to do so the Gods must also first recognize the plebeians.

> Alas, Livius said the plebeians didn´t desired to elect consules

after a

> great long time of ´tribunii with consular powers´ because they

wouldn´t be

> allowed to that magistrature.
>

MMP: Yes, because by that time the patricians were trying to shut
the plebeians out of curule magistracies. But earlier the plebeians
did hold such offices. The struggle is to regain what had been
theirs earlier.

> (I lack of references. Much I say, I know I´ve read somewhere, but

surely I

> haven´t the textbook to search the exact piece)
>

MMP: Yes, I know the feeling. I have been reading about Rome for at
least forty five years. I cannot always recall exactly where I read
something, the mind is begining to fade, but still remember passages
from long ago.

> Anyway, all text I will put here with time comes from Harpers on

Perseus

> Online Library. It is a 1898 textbook, so, perhaps, modern

Historians have

> discovered something to add.
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
>

An interesting discussion of the patrician-plebeian issues is found
with T. J. Cornell's "The Beginings of Rome," 1995, and then from
him you can be led to other scholars who have written on the
subject. And of course others have written on the subject since
then, and new archaeological evidence is always being turned up that
makes us have to rethink early Roman and Latin developments. One
thing to bear in mind is that the distinction between patricians and
plebeians in Livy's time, or with some of the earlier writers of the
Late Republic, has no real bearing on what the distinction meant
during the Middle Republic, or Early Republic, and we don't even
know if such a distinction existed during the Regal period. Like
everything else, those terms evolved over time. Also the Romans
were in the habit of projecting back in times the origins of
institutions of their own time as a way of explaining them. Late
Republican authors, and even the few Middle Republican authors, had
no real knowledge of Rome before the fourth century. Even legends
about earlier times dated back to the fourth century. so any
discussion of the plebeian-patrician question can only be
speculation.

Vale optime
Piscinus

Salve
the term "legiones urbanae" was the term i was runing acrossed and cuold not find any info on.i had wondered just what they where.

M. Galerius Aquilinus

Tita Artoria Marcella <icehunter@...> wrote: Salve,


I have seen the original four Republican Legions refered to as the Urban Legions, as they were the Consular armies made up entirely of landed Roman citizens who were only soldiers when called upon. I'm not sure if those are the legions you are looking for, since there were units designated as "legiones urbanae" and raised specifically to defend cities.

Vale bene,
Artoria








---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the Album Gentium, the Homepage of Gens Agoria is a dead link, but
when I try to log in to change it to where it should be, which is here:

http://www.robinartisson.com/agoria/gens.htm

It won't let me. Can someone point me to the person or persons that I
need to direct this issue to, to have it corrected?


(Blessings of Ceres and Proserpine on you all)


Taurinus

Salve,I remember a discussion on the main board about the first of the year as to whether or not there was an actual urban legion for law enforcement in Rome and other cities of the Roman Empire.It was put foth that there was a distinct Black Legion but that was used exclusively for the protection of dignitaries and that urban patrols were drawn from the regular Legion for those duties.I could be wrong and often times am.Vale,Appius Galerius Aurelianus.

Legere_Umbrae <legere_umbrae@...> wrote: Salve
the term "legiones urbanae" was the term i was runing acrossed and cuold not find any info on.i had wondered just what they where.

M. Galerius Aquilinus

Tita Artoria Marcella <icehunter@...> wrote: Salve,


I have seen the original four Republican Legions refered to as the Urban Legions, as they were the Consular armies made up entirely of landed Roman citizens who were only soldiers when called upon. I'm not sure if those are the legions you are looking for, since there were units designated as "legiones urbanae" and raised specifically to defend cities.

Vale bene,
Artoria



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Fauste et Corde

What Cordus was pointing out is true. We are only discussing
theories. The Romans themselves, in the Late Republic, didn't realy
know the origin of the distinction, and they offer us their own
theories. Cornell discusses some of the issues that cast doubts on
the claims of patrician, but the theory itself, on the closing of
the patriciate, was put forth by De Sanctis. There are problems
with Cornell in how he sees archaeological evidence in light of what
Livy says. The archaeological evidence does not really support
Cornell's view that Livy is generally accurate in his portrayal of
Archaic Rome.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

>
> what Fustel de Coulan in ´Ancient City´ said, and my textbook. The

plebeians

> weren´t allowed to the curules magistratures because they lack the

domestic

> religio only the patricians had. So, the gods of the city, to

recognize the

> magistrate in the magistrature, had to recognize a citizen

´recognized´ by

> its own family gods, the ancestors and its family lararium.

MMPH: Earlier I didn't quite catch what Faustus was saying here.
You are referring to the claims of patricians to having had divine
ancestors, such as the claim of the Iulii of being descendents of
Venus. According to Livy those inventions did not begin until the
fourth century, after the Gallic sack. The archaeological evidence
also poses the Romans adopting the cultus of Aeneas only late in the
fourth century, and that this cultus began in Lavinium only in the
middle fourth century. Other Italic tribes were adopting similar
mythological origins for themselves in this same time period. The
Sabines claiming descent from Spartan heroes, the Marrucini from Sol
through Circe and also from Ulysses. So this argument for patrician
privileges could not have existed in the fifth century or earlier.
True, Livy makes use of it in presenting the patrician side of the
argument, but his was a projection back in time from a later
development.

Livius had his own perspective, which we would have to take into
consideration. His first five books were published during Augustus'
lifetime. Augustus was not too pleased by them. Livius did not
publish the second set until after Augustus had died. It was then,
in the prologue to Book VI that he challenged the Iulii claim of a
divine ancestry, and also cast doubt on all patrician claims to
special privileges inherited from the Gods.

Valete optime
Piscinus

Salvete omnes,

I notices on the cable TV notices that today is the anniversary of
Julius Caesar's first invasion of Britain.

Also two weeks back on August 9 was the anniversary of the Battle Of
The Teutoburg Wald.


Regards,

QSP

That's an obsolete feature. Gentes used to be much more organised than
they are now, and the "paterfamilias" could edit the link; now that
admission into a gens is more loose, no one person should be given the
authority to say what the gens' page is. The feature will disappear
with the next Album Civium software upgrade (which I hope to do next
month).

Vale, Octavius.

>
>
> In the Album Gentium, the Homepage of Gens Agoria is a dead link, but
> when I try to log in to change it to where it should be, which is here:
>
> http://www.robinartisson.com/agoria/gens.htm
>
> It won't let me. Can someone point me to the person or persons that I
> need to direct this issue to, to have it corrected?
>
>
> (Blessings of Ceres and Proserpine on you all)
>
>
> Taurinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"What is the difference? What indeed is the point? ...The
clarity is devastating. But where is the ambiguity? It's
over there, in a box." -- J. Cleese

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Matt Hucke <hucke@...> wrote:

>
>
> That's an obsolete feature. Gentes used to be much more organised than
> they are now, and the "paterfamilias" could edit the link; now that
> admission into a gens is more loose, no one person should be given the
> authority to say what the gens' page is. The feature will disappear
> with the next Album Civium software upgrade (which I hope to do next
> month).
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>

So, the fact that I started Gens Agoria here, did the research into
the historical Gens Agoria, and did all this work on the site means
nothing- anyone can now join the Gens and make up their own "Gens
Agoria" webpage? It's odd indeed that an organization like Nova Roma
would ever imagine that the position of a Paterfamilias or a
Materfamilias should have no authority over their own family, or how
it is expressed here in NR. Just another brick in the wall, I would think.


Taurinus

I receive a ton of these phishing emails in different forms, and immediately forward every one of them to spoof@.... If you're unsure of the legitimacy of the email, go to eBay and check "My Messages" before you click on anything within the email. If the message is legitimate, it will also appear in your eBay "My Messages" inbox online. If it isn't there, it's a scam. Occasionally I get similar emails claiming to PayPal. Those go directly to spoof@.... The creators of this stuff are very good at what they do, and their work is absolutely perfect and completely convincing. It looks exactly like the real thing, so be very careful. Always check it out before you click. If you slipped and clicked on a link in one of these emails, go change your password immediately.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit

I was not initially very fond of the Gens reform, having founded Gens
Modia. However, our current system is more historical. You are indeed the
Pater Familias of Gens Agorius Taurinus. You have Patria Potestas with
regard to your own children, but not other adults who might also have the
Agorius. Just because you "founded" something doesn't mean you can do
whatever you want with it. Even the founders of Nova Roma (Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Julianus) do not have sole rights to Nova
Roma, they are a part of it and subject to its laws like you and I.

What is truly odd is that someone, like yourself, will be inactive in Nova
Roma for a year or two and then re-appear only to make disparaging
statements such as, "Just another brick in the wall, I would think." There
is more to being a Pater Familias than simply claiming a name and building a
website. The legislation passed is an attempt to do just that.

Vale:

G.F.B.M.
Consul

On 8/26/06, Galus Agorius Taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, Matt
> Hucke <hucke@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > That's an obsolete feature. Gentes used to be much more organised than
> > they are now, and the "paterfamilias" could edit the link; now that
> > admission into a gens is more loose, no one person should be given the
> > authority to say what the gens' page is. The feature will disappear
> > with the next Album Civium software upgrade (which I hope to do next
> > month).
> >
> > Vale, Octavius.
> >
>
> So, the fact that I started Gens Agoria here, did the research into
> the historical Gens Agoria, and did all this work on the site means
> nothing- anyone can now join the Gens and make up their own "Gens
> Agoria" webpage? It's odd indeed that an organization like Nova Roma
> would ever imagine that the position of a Paterfamilias or a
> Materfamilias should have no authority over their own family, or how
> it is expressed here in NR.
>




Just another brick in the wall, I would think.
>
> Taurinus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Galus Agorius Taurinus wrote:

> So, the fact that I started Gens Agoria here, did the research into
> the historical Gens Agoria, and did all this work on the site means
> nothing- anyone can now join the Gens and make up their own "Gens
> Agoria" webpage?

Their pages will be no or more less valid than yours. Readers will
judge them by the quality of information - not by who got here first.

> It's odd indeed that an organization like Nova Roma
> would ever imagine that the position of a Paterfamilias or a
> Materfamilias should have no authority over their own family,

What we've done is removed the incorrect setup of a "paterfamilias"
being head of a "gens". Within a gens there are familiae, each of
which can have a paterfamilias or materfamilias.

Vale, Octavius.

--
hucke@...
http://www.graveyards.com

"What is the difference? What indeed is the point? ...The
clarity is devastating. But where is the ambiguity? It's
over there, in a box." -- J. Cleese

L. Iunius omnibus sal.

I've been unable to find the lex in the tabularium that governs the
distribution of cives into centuriae. I tried to make sense of it
myself, but there certain elements I can't figure out. Why are there
cives with around 100 century points each in the 51st centuria (with a
total of 504 cives) while the 49th and 50th centuriae each have 11
cives with century points ranging from 10 to 25? Some cives with,
say, 44 points fall into the class of centuriae with totals of 8 cives
each, while there are cives with as few as 39 century points that make
it into the class of centuriae with totals of 6 cives each.

Valete.

SALVE LUCI IUNI !

You can start from that link :
http://home.earthlink.net/~alexious/tribes-and-centuries.htm

This page is from 2754 a.U.c. In time were changes. Sure the Censors
or the Censors scribae will come with more accurate answers.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Iunius"
<iunius_verbosus@...> wrote:

>
> L. Iunius omnibus sal.
>
> I've been unable to find the lex in the tabularium that governs the
> distribution of cives into centuriae. I tried to make sense of it
> myself, but there certain elements I can't figure out. Why are

there

> cives with around 100 century points each in the 51st centuria

(with a

> total of 504 cives) while the 49th and 50th centuriae each have 11
> cives with century points ranging from 10 to 25? Some cives with,
> say, 44 points fall into the class of centuriae with totals of 8

cives

> each, while there are cives with as few as 39 century points that

make

> it into the class of centuriae with totals of 6 cives each.
>
> Valete.
>

> A. Tullia Scholastica L. Iunio quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>
>
> L. Iunius omnibus sal.
>
> I've been unable to find the lex in the tabularium that governs the
> distribution of cives into centuriae. I tried to make sense of it
> myself, but there certain elements I can't figure out. Why are there
> cives with around 100 century points each in the 51st centuria (with a
> total of 504 cives)
>
> ATS: The 51st century contains all new citizens and all those who haven¹t
> paid their taxes, no matter how many CPs they have. To pre-empt another
> question, those who haven¹t voted in the last main election go into urban
> tribes, whereas those who do vote go into smaller, rural ones.
>
>
> while the 49th and 50th centuriae each have 11
> cives with century points ranging from 10 to 25?
>
> ATS: Those are very low class centuries, with inactive people who
> typically haven¹t been among us very long. There is likely to be more
> variation in the CPs there.
>
> Some cives with,
> say, 44 points fall into the class of centuriae with totals of 8 cives
> each, while there are cives with as few as 39 century points that make
> it into the class of centuriae with totals of 6 cives each.
>
> ATS: Octavius can tell you more about this, but the actual distribution
> into centuries is done by mathematical algorithm, as I understand it (which
> means that I don¹t really understand it, since it¹s math, not language or art,
> we¹re talking about).
>
> Valete.
>
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
> Rogatrix
> Scriba Censoris Cn. Equiti Marini
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Matt Hucke <hucke@...> wrote:

>
> > It's odd indeed that an organization like Nova Roma
> > would ever imagine that the position of a Paterfamilias or a
> > Materfamilias should have no authority over their own family,
>
> What we've done is removed the incorrect setup of a "paterfamilias"
> being head of a "gens". Within a gens there are familiae, each of
> which can have a paterfamilias or materfamilias.
>

Many thanks for your letter. I also recieved one in private that
explained the depths of the politics behind the change. Very
interesting, indeed- I must say, as much as I disagree with the
change, I have to take my hat off (again) for the politicians at NR.
You all missed your calling- you should have been born 2000 years ago
in Ancient Rome.


Taurinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

> What is truly odd is that someone, like yourself, will be inactive

in Nova

> Roma for a year or two and then re-appear only to make disparaging
> statements such as, "Just another brick in the wall, I would think."

What's even odder is your exceedingly poor attempt to carry your
grudges against me from other places, to this distant shore. Aren't
you a bit busy being the second arch-hermetic Druid of AODA, to be a
Good Roman? I myself have been busy with other challenges in life-
like family life, religious life, and professional life- to keep up
with NR as much as I would like. When I get breathing room, I like to
check in on my friends here. I've always respected the original vision
of NR and think that some of the brightest minds in the modern
reconstructionist world call this place their home.



There

> is more to being a Pater Familias than simply claiming a name and

building a

> website. The legislation passed is an attempt to do just that.
>
> Vale:

Indeed, as I have said, I have recieved a private letter (thank the
Gods) From a very intelligent and well-spoken (and knowledgable)
citizen who explained, in admirable and honest detail, what the change
was truly about. Historical accuracy doesn't seem to be the whole
story. But then, it never is.


Taurinus

Edictum Praetorium XIII

Ex Officio

In accordance with the Lex Equitia de Corrigendis Legum Erratis
A. Apollonius Cordus and A.Tullia Scholastica shall assist
the Curator Aranearius in the mandated correction of our laws.

They shall assist with "correcting typographical, orthographic,
grammatical, and similar errors existing in past, present, and
future legislation, insofar as these alter neither the spirit nor
the intent of the law."

They shall also enlist the aide of the interpreters of the
appropriate languages and the assistance of any other Praetorian
Scriba as needed.

Titus Octavius Pius Ahenobarbus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Praetors

Given this the 27rd day of August 2759 A.V.C. at 7:40 am Roman time
In the consulship of Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus and Pompeia Minucia
Strabo

thanks, this is more than i have been able to find on my own.

flavius leviticus <centorious@...> wrote:
Salve,I remember a discussion on the main board about the first of the year as to whether or not there was an actual urban legion for law enforcement in Rome and other cities of the Roman Empire.It was put foth that there was a distinct Black Legion but that was used exclusively for the protection of dignitaries and that urban patrols were drawn from the regular Legion for those duties.I could be wrong and often times am.Vale,Appius Galerius Aurelianus.



Tita Artoria Marcella <icehunter@...> wrote: Salve,

I have seen the original four Republican Legions refered to as the Urban Legions, as they were the Consular armies made up entirely of landed Roman citizens who were only soldiers when called upon. I'm not sure if those are the legions you are looking for, since there were units designated as "legiones urbanae" and raised specifically to defend cities.

Vale bene,
Artoria







---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit

I have responded to you privately. There is no reason to perpetuate a
conflict between us in this public forum.

Vale:

G.F.B.M.
Consul

On 8/27/06, Galus Agorius Taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, "David
> Kling (Modianus)"
>
> <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> > What is truly odd is that someone, like yourself, will be inactive
> in Nova
> > Roma for a year or two and then re-appear only to make disparaging
> > statements such as, "Just another brick in the wall, I would think."
>
> What's even odder is your exceedingly poor attempt to carry your
> grudges against me from other places, to this distant shore. Aren't
> you a bit busy being the second arch-hermetic Druid of AODA, to be a
> Good Roman? I myself have been busy with other challenges in life-
> like family life, religious life, and professional life- to keep up
> with NR as much as I would like. When I get breathing room, I like to
> check in on my friends here. I've always respected the original vision
> of NR and think that some of the brightest minds in the modern
> reconstructionist world call this place their home.
>
>
> There
> > is more to being a Pater Familias than simply claiming a name and
> building a
> > website. The legislation passed is an attempt to do just that.
> >
> > Vale:
>
> Indeed, as I have said, I have recieved a private letter (thank the
> Gods) From a very intelligent and well-spoken (and knowledgable)
> citizen who explained, in admirable and honest detail, what the change
> was truly about. Historical accuracy doesn't seem to be the whole
> story. But then, it never is.
>
> Taurinus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wonder if one of the good citizens of Nova Roma would care to
explain to me what a Consul represents here, and what the duties,
powers, and responsibilies of a Consul are?


Taurinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit
>
> I have responded to you privately. There is no reason to perpetuate a
> conflict between us in this public forum.
>

Maybe I believe in honesty, and have nothing to hide. Your bias
against me in other forums- and here- is plain. The basis for your
bias is non-existent; it is based on lies, rumor, and ad hominem
nonsense, none of which is substantial. I don't whisper and hide
behind walls of email to address my rightful grievances. Many
apologies if that makes you uncomfortable.


Taurinus

Salve G. Agori Taurine,

Here is what our leges say for the consuls in NR:

Now:

Two Consuls shall be elected, and shall be the highest-ranking
magistrates in Nova Roma. Each Consul shall have the following
powers:

1) holding Imperium which means ( A man with imperium had in
principle absolute authority to apply the law within the scope of
his magistracy or promagistracy (see below), but could be vetoed or
overruled by a magistrate or promagistrate having imperium maius or
imperium maior (a higher degree of imperium) or, as most republican
magistratures were multiple (not quite collegial: each could act on
his own), by the equal power of his colleague, e.g. the other
Consul. Some modern scholars (e.g. A.H.M. Jones) have defined it
as "the power vested by the state in a person to do what they
consider to be in the best interests of the state".)


2) veto over the actions of his or her fellow Consul, and over the
actions of lesser magistrates;

3)calling the Senate to convene and undertake its deliberations;

4)Govern the day-to-day operations of the State, within the
boundaries of the Law and under the advice of the Senate;

5)govern the provincia in which he or she resides, and/or shall be
assigned by the Senate; and,

6)summon the Comitia Tributa and Comitia Centuriata and put forth
matters for the people to vote upon.

And Then: (from Britannica)


Latin Consul, plural Consules, in ancient Rome, either of the
two highest of the ordinary magistracies in the ancient Roman
Republic. After the fall of the kings (c. 509 BC) the consulship
preserved regal power in a qualified form. Absolute authority was
expressed in the consul's imperium (q.v.), but its arbitrary
exercise was limited: the consuls, nominated by the Senate and
elected by the people in the Comitia Centuriata (a popular
assembly), held office for only a year, and each consul had power of
veto over the other's decisions. After the establishment of other
magistracies, especially the censorship and tribuneship, consular
authority was further limited. Consuls, however, were in a very real
sense the heads of state. They commanded the army, convened and
presided over the Senate and the popular assemblies and executed
their decrees, and represented the state in foreign affairs. They
retained important prerogatives in administration and in criminal
law, and their office was invested with the sella curulis (a special
chair of office) and an escort of 12 lictors. After 367 BC at least
one of the consuls had to be a plebeian, though in practice the
consulship was usually limited to wealthy and noble families with
distinguished records of public service. When their terms expired,
consuls generally were appointed to serve as governors of provinces.
These could be and often were profitable sinecures; in the late
years of the republic, provincial governors used their unlimited
powers to enrich themselves at every turn. Although the office of
consulship remained after the collapse of the republic (27 BC), it
had lost most of its former power. The appointment of consuls passed
from the hands of the people to the state; later yet it fell to the
emperor to name consuls.


I think that covers it.

Regards,

QSP




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Galus Agorius Taurinus"
<g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I wonder if one of the good citizens of Nova Roma would care to
> explain to me what a Consul represents here, and what the duties,
> powers, and responsibilies of a Consul are?
>
>
> Taurinus
>

M. Hortensia Agorio salutem dicit;
actually if you had bothered to ever read the posts, you'd
see that Consul Buteo Modianus has done a lot to promote reform and
vitality in the Religio Romana.
We have a very active religio list & active pontiffs who
answer questions and help cives learn and perform rituals.
What's truly bizarre is that your namesake Vettius Agorius
Praetextus was an initiate of a large number of cults and mysteries
like our Consul - a truly pious man.
bene vale in pacem deorum
Marca Hortensia Maior

> > What is truly odd is that someone, like yourself, will be

inactive

> in Nova
> > Roma for a year or two and then re-appear only to make

disparaging

> > statements such as, "Just another brick in the wall, I would

think."

>
>
> What's even odder is your exceedingly poor attempt to carry your
> grudges against me from other places, to this distant shore. Aren't
> you a bit busy being the second arch-hermetic Druid of AODA, to be

a

> Good Roman? I myself have been busy with other challenges in life-
> like family life, religious life, and professional life- to keep up
> with NR as much as I would like. When I get breathing room, I like

to

> check in on my friends here. I've always respected the original

vision

> of NR and think that some of the brightest minds in the modern
> reconstructionist world call this place their home.
>
>
>
> There
> > is more to being a Pater Familias than simply claiming a name and
> building a
> > website. The legislation passed is an attempt to do just that.
> >
> > Vale:
>
>
>
> Indeed, as I have said, I have recieved a private letter (thank the
> Gods) From a very intelligent and well-spoken (and knowledgable)
> citizen who explained, in admirable and honest detail, what the

change

> was truly about. Historical accuracy doesn't seem to be the whole
> story. But then, it never is.
>
>
> Taurinus
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:

>
> Salve G. Agori Taurine,
>
> Here is what our leges say for the consuls in NR:
>
> Now:
>

Many thanks to you, honored sir.


Taurinus

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit

"I don't whisper and hide behind walls of email to address my rightful
grievances. Many apologies if that makes you uncomfortable."

You seem to have a misconception of me. I too don't believe in hiding
behind e-mails or the "Internet" either. If you would prefer to talk via
the phone I would be more than happy to talk to you, and perhaps settle this
conflict as gentlemen. I would be more than happy to call you, as long you
live within the Continental United States (unfortunately outside of the US
is outside of my financial means to call), then you and I can both lay down
our e-mail and talk. Let me know via private e-mail were I can reach you,
and what time is best.

Vale:

G.F.B.M.
Consul

On 8/27/06, Galus Agorius Taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, "David
> Kling (Modianus)"
> <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit
> >
> > I have responded to you privately. There is no reason to perpetuate a
> > conflict between us in this public forum.
> >
>
> Maybe I believe in honesty, and have nothing to hide. Your bias
> against me in other forums- and here- is plain. The basis for your
> bias is non-existent; it is based on lies, rumor, and ad hominem
> nonsense, none of which is substantial. I don't whisper and hide
> behind walls of email to address my rightful grievances. Many
> apologies if that makes you uncomfortable.
>
> Taurinus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
> M. Hortensia Agorio salutem dicit;
> actually if you had bothered to ever read the posts, you'd
> see that Consul Buteo Modianus has done a lot to promote reform and
> vitality in the Religio Romana.

I don't doubt this at all. But outside of Nova Roma, the honored
consul has accepted the words of rumors and lies told about me, and
mistreated me in other forums that he runs. He has issues against me
that do not bear relationship to reality, only to deception and
gossip. I am happy that he has helped NR, and I hope that he continues
to do so, but I have no illusions about how he would treat me here if
I were to unfortunately fall under his whims. And it's sad that such a
person could be a Consul.

> We have a very active religio list & active pontiffs who
> answer questions and help cives learn and perform rituals.

Superb. As well you should. I never questioned the goodness of this.

> What's truly bizarre is that your namesake Vettius Agorius
> Praetextus was an initiate of a large number of cults and mysteries
> like our Consul - a truly pious man.

And I am an initiate of a large number of cults and mysteries, like my
namesake, honor to him. If our Consul had taken the time to get to
know ME, and not just what people have lied and said about me, I have
no doubt that he and I would be friends.


Pax!

Taurinus

To all who care about this infernal thread:

I apologize now for bringing this to this forum, and withdraw from
this thread. I'm sure the Consul is a great man who has done many
wonderful things for many other people.

Now please, go back to reading your copies of the "Roman Tribune" and
watching your daily gladiatorial combats! Nothing to see here. :)


Taurinus

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit

You make it seem as if I have given a lot of thought to you. I have not.
You also assume that I have spent time to discuss with others their opinions
of you. That is not really the case. As a matter of fact when I was at
Pagan Spirit Gathering this past June I attended a meet and greet for
Reconstructionists and one attendee spoke very highly of you and your work
within Witchcraft. This was prior to the instance were I moderated your
post on the AODA LJ forum. However, the instance of my moderating your post
on that forum has nothing to do with Nova Roma.

You claim that I do not "know you," and you claim that I have listened to
the lies of others. I have given you an opportunity to talk to me instead
of "hide behind e-mail" as you stated. If you wish to talk to me then so be
it, otherwise is it necessary for you to make disparaging comments on this
forum about my ability as a leader, magistrate, etc...? I have no desire to
perpetuate conflict with anyone.

Vale:

G.F.B.M.
Consul

On 8/27/06, Galus Agorius Taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>, "Maior"
> <rory12001@...> wrote:
> >
> > M. Hortensia Agorio salutem dicit;
> > actually if you had bothered to ever read the posts, you'd
> > see that Consul Buteo Modianus has done a lot to promote reform and
> > vitality in the Religio Romana.
>
> I don't doubt this at all. But outside of Nova Roma, the honored
> consul has accepted the words of rumors and lies told about me, and
> mistreated me in other forums that he runs. He has issues against me
> that do not bear relationship to reality, only to deception and
> gossip. I am happy that he has helped NR, and I hope that he continues
> to do so, but I have no illusions about how he would treat me here if
> I were to unfortunately fall under his whims. And it's sad that such a
> person could be a Consul.
>
>
> > We have a very active religio list & active pontiffs who
> > answer questions and help cives learn and perform rituals.
>
> Superb. As well you should. I never questioned the goodness of this.
>
>
> > What's truly bizarre is that your namesake Vettius Agorius
> > Praetextus was an initiate of a large number of cults and mysteries
> > like our Consul - a truly pious man.
>
> And I am an initiate of a large number of cults and mysteries, like my
> namesake, honor to him. If our Consul had taken the time to get to
> know ME, and not just what people have lied and said about me, I have
> no doubt that he and I would be friends.
>
> Pax!
>
> Taurinus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus Novae Romae S.P.D.

The following is a brief report of tax revenues and demographics thus far for the year 2759 A.V.C....


To date we have a total of 218 assidui (taxpayers)

Assidui per provincia:


Brasilia:............................ 23............................................................................
Mediatlantica: .................... 23...........................................................................
Hispania:............................ 22..........................................................................
NovaBritannia.......................20..................................................................................
Dacia..................................17...............................................................................
America Austroccidentalis....16..............................................................................
LacusMagni.........................13.............................................................................
Thule...................................11...............................................................................
Britannia..............................10................................................................................
Italia.....................................9.................................................................................
America Austrorientalis..........7..............................................................................
Canada Occidentalis.............7...............................................................................
Canada Orientalis.................5...............................................................................
Germanica...........................6...............................................................................
California..............................6...............................................................................
America Mediocc. Superior....6...............................................................................
America. Boreocc. Superior...5...............................................................................
Gallia................................. 3...............................................................................
Pannonia.............................2...............................................................................
Australia..............................2...............................................................................
Asia Orientalis.....................2................................................................................
Asia Occidentalis.................1...............................................................................
Mexico................................1...............................................................................
Hibernia...............................1...............................................................................
Sarmatia..............................0..............................................................................
Venedia...............................0..............................................................................
Argentina.............................0.............................................................................

It should in all fairness be taken into account that some provinciae have less citizens in their numbers and consequently they might have less taxpayers than their larger provincial counterparts.

Below is a percentage expression of the provinciae whose taxpayers represent 30% or more of their respective populations. These percentages are rounded down, and they are based on the most recent Quaestoral and Provincial roster data, but do not include 8 assidui who will be added to the Album Gentium in the future. This will influence some of the figures slightly, but this is a reasonable picture as it stands now:

Dacia:........................... 17/17=100%
Canada Occidentalis.........7/11 = 63%
Nova Britannia.................20/38 = 52%
Brasilia..........................23/46 = 50%
Gallia...............................6/17 = 35%
Thule..............................11/33 = 33%
America Austroccidentalis16/50 = 32%

Six of our provincia's assidui represent 20-30% of their respective populations.

It should also be noted that some assidui, in addition to paying taxes to the Nova Roma central treasury, do 'double duty' and remit funds to their own provincial associations.

Many many thanks to those citizens who support the republic financially.

It is still not too late to pay one's taxes. Please visit the website www.novaroma.org The information on rates and remittance methods are detailed on the opening page.

Citizens with assidui status have the greater voting power than those who don't pay taxes (called the capite censis in Latin). In addition, assidui status is required to run and maintain office in most magisterial, religious and scribal positions.

The prevailing lex detailing these matters was passed in Dec 2005 (2758 A.V.C.) It is the Lex Apula de assidui et capite censis. It can be viewed from the Tabularium section on the front page of the website www.novaroma.org

Further questions on tax matters or this report may be directed to either myself at Pompeia_Minucia_Tiberia@... or C. Arminius Reccanellus Quaestor Consulare at C_Arminius_Reccanellus@...


My greatest appreciation is extended to Caius Arminius Reccanellus Quaestor Consulare et Propraetor Brasilia for his consistent, meticulous work in managing the tax data. A very dedicated and competent individual.

In addition, my equal thanks to Patricia Cassia Senatrix et Accensus Consulare for managing the tax payments remitted by postal mail, among other financial duties she assumes on behalf of Nova Roma.

Valete








---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! MessengerÂ’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

To this report, I would like to add my thanks to the Consul for
presenting the information in an easily ascertainable (and readable!)
format. As I believe she might say, just more of your tax denarii at work!

Valete,

Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
Pontifex

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

It is with much regret that I announce that Elysium Gathering 2006 has been
cancelled. I know there are several people who were looking forward to
Elysium and I apologize for your disappointment. If it were possible for me
to go forward with Elysium I surely would, but unfortunately such is not and
I apologize to all those who are disappointed by its cancellation.

Valete:

G.F.B.M.
Consul

On 8/20/06, David Kling (Modianus) < tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
> >
> > Elysium Gathering -- September 21st - 24th 2006. **
> >
> > Elysium Gathering is sponsored by:
> >
> > Three Roads Grove: www.three-roads.org/index2.html
> >
> > Ancient Order of Druids in America: www.three-roads.org/aoda.html or
> > www.aoda.org
> >
> > Nova Roma: www.three-roads.org/novaroma.html or www.novaroma.org
> >
> >
> > Confirmed presenters: (also see: www.three-roads.org/workshops.html)
> >
> > John Michael Greer conducting workshops on "Walking the Earth Path," and
> > "Basic AODA Ritual."
> >
> > John F. Gilbert, PhD conducting workshops on *"**Basic Druid Healing* *
> > **Techniques," and "How To Combine Druidry With Any Spritiual Path."*
> >
> > Sara Greer conducting workshops on "*Ancestor Work" and "Staying In
> > Touch."*
> >
> > John Plummer, PhD conducting a workshop on "*The Mystery of Priesthood."
> > *
> >
> > Other workshops are being put together on ancient Roman Religion,
> > Gnosticism, and the future of Paganism and more!
> >
> > What to expect:
> >
> > Workshops, discussion groups, rituals in several different religious
> > traditions (Religio Romana, AODA Druidry, Gnostic, Wiccan, Hermetic, and
> > others).
> >
> > Fire Spinning, and opportunities to learn Fire Spinning.
> >
> > Vendors:
> >
> > Several vendors are already confirmed, but there is room for additional
> > vendors. Vending is FREE at Elysium, but pre-registration is required of
> > all vendors.
> >
> > For registration information please visit:
> > http://www.three-roads.org/registration.html
> > [Note: There are day passes available].
> > Direct question on Elysium Gathering to: David Kling at: *tau.athanasios@...
> > *
> >
> >
> >
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---Pompeia Minucia Strabo Q. Caecilio Metellus Postumianus Pontifex
S.P.D.

I appreciate your kind words, Pontifex. And, I'm equally
appreciative of your many, many good works in NR.

Vale


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Q. Caecilius Metellus"
<metellus@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete,
>
> To this report, I would like to add my thanks to the Consul for
> presenting the information in an easily ascertainable (and

readable!)

> format. As I believe she might say, just more of your tax denarii

at work!

>
> Valete,
>
> Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus
> Pontifex
>

---Pompeia Modiano Consul Sal.

I am sorry that you had to make this announcement. But an event of
this magnitude requires many hands. And one or two persons cannot
properly do the work of many, or be several places at the same
time. Multitasking is one thing, miracles are another.
And you've made a realistic appraisal in reasonable time that the
project just simply isn't going to fly...this year.

Things sometimes happen for reasons we are yet to discover. Maybe
the weather will be absolutely horrible...or some other reason.

There will be other events, other years I'm sure.

Vale and regrets



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
>
> It is with much regret that I announce that Elysium Gathering 2006

has been

> cancelled. I know there are several people who were looking

forward to

> Elysium and I apologize for your disappointment. If it were

possible for me

> to go forward with Elysium I surely would, but unfortunately such

is not and

> I apologize to all those who are disappointed by its cancellation.
>
> Valete:
>
> G.F.B.M.
> Consul
>
>
> On 8/20/06, David Kling (Modianus) < tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Elysium Gathering -- September 21st - 24th 2006. **
> > >
> > > Elysium Gathering is sponsored by:
> > >
> > > Three Roads Grove: www.three-roads.org/index2.html
> > >
> > > Ancient Order of Druids in America: www.three-

roads.org/aoda.html or

> > > www.aoda.org
> > >
> > > Nova Roma: www.three-roads.org/novaroma.html or

www.novaroma.org

> > >
> > >
> > > Confirmed presenters: (also see: www.three-

roads.org/workshops.html)

> > >
> > > John Michael Greer conducting workshops on "Walking the Earth

Path," and

> > > "Basic AODA Ritual."
> > >
> > > John F. Gilbert, PhD conducting workshops on *"**Basic Druid

Healing* *

> > > **Techniques," and "How To Combine Druidry With Any Spritiual

Path."*

> > >
> > > Sara Greer conducting workshops on "*Ancestor Work"

and "Staying In

> > > Touch."*
> > >
> > > John Plummer, PhD conducting a workshop on "*The Mystery of

Priesthood."

> > > *
> > >
> > > Other workshops are being put together on ancient Roman

Religion,

> > > Gnosticism, and the future of Paganism and more!
> > >
> > > What to expect:
> > >
> > > Workshops, discussion groups, rituals in several different

religious

> > > traditions (Religio Romana, AODA Druidry, Gnostic, Wiccan,

Hermetic, and

> > > others).
> > >
> > > Fire Spinning, and opportunities to learn Fire Spinning.
> > >
> > > Vendors:
> > >
> > > Several vendors are already confirmed, but there is room for

additional

> > > vendors. Vending is FREE at Elysium, but pre-registration is

required of

> > > all vendors.
> > >
> > > For registration information please visit:
> > > http://www.three-roads.org/registration.html
> > > [Note: There are day passes available].
> > > Direct question on Elysium Gathering to: David Kling at:

*tau.athanasios@...

> > > *
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

SALVE GALE AGORI !

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Galus Agorius Taurinus"
<g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:

> Now please, go back to reading your copies of the "Roman Tribune" and
> watching your daily gladiatorial combats! Nothing to see here. :)

I have read your "Twelvefold declaration of a Modern Pagan". A nice
and very well structured article. I will post it in my province list.

VALE,
IVL SABINVS

M. Hortensia Agorio salutem dicit;
eheu not another posturing civis... we've had enough of
them. The neo-nazi civix tops you for NR 'Victim of the Week'. Sorry
Agori but next to his endless sufferings on the ML we've not a drop
of sympathy to spare;-
vale
Marca Hortensia Maior

> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Galo Agorio Taurino salutem dicit
>
> You make it seem as if I have given a lot of thought to you. I

have not.

> You also assume that I have spent time to discuss with others

their opinions

> of you. That is not really the case. As a matter of fact when I

was at

> Pagan Spirit Gathering this past June I attended a meet and greet

for

> Reconstructionists and one attendee spoke very highly of you and

your work

> within Witchcraft. This was prior to the instance were I

moderated your

> post on the AODA LJ forum. However, the instance of my moderating

your post

> on that forum has nothing to do with Nova Roma.
>
> You claim that I do not "know you," and you claim that I have

listened to

> the lies of others. I have given you an opportunity to talk to me

instead

> of "hide behind e-mail" as you stated. If you wish to talk to me

then so be

> it, otherwise is it necessary for you to make disparaging comments

on this

> forum about my ability as a leader, magistrate, etc...? I have no

desire to

> perpetuate conflict with anyone.
>
> Vale:
>
> G.F.B.M.
> Consul
>
> On 8/27/06, Galus Agorius Taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%

40yahoogroups.com>, "Maior"

> > <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Hortensia Agorio salutem dicit;
> > > actually if you had bothered to ever read the posts, you'd
> > > see that Consul Buteo Modianus has done a lot to promote

reform and

> > > vitality in the Religio Romana.
> >
> > I don't doubt this at all. But outside of Nova Roma, the honored
> > consul has accepted the words of rumors and lies told about me,

and

> > mistreated me in other forums that he runs. He has issues

against me

> > that do not bear relationship to reality, only to deception and
> > gossip. I am happy that he has helped NR, and I hope that he

continues

> > to do so, but I have no illusions about how he would treat me

here if

> > I were to unfortunately fall under his whims. And it's sad that

such a

> > person could be a Consul.
> >
> >
> > > We have a very active religio list & active pontiffs who
> > > answer questions and help cives learn and perform rituals.
> >
> > Superb. As well you should. I never questioned the goodness of

this.

> >
> >
> > > What's truly bizarre is that your namesake Vettius Agorius
> > > Praetextus was an initiate of a large number of cults and

mysteries

> > > like our Consul - a truly pious man.
> >
> > And I am an initiate of a large number of cults and mysteries,

like my

> > namesake, honor to him. If our Consul had taken the time to get

to

> > know ME, and not just what people have lied and said about me, I

have

> > no doubt that he and I would be friends.
> >
> > Pax!
> >
> > Taurinus
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete,

From ANSA: "Rome, August 25 - The once majestic mausoleum of Roman
Emperor Augustus, now a dank and overgrown ruin, is to be spruced up
and opened to the public in a bid to add a new 'must' to the Eternal
City's tourist itinerary."

Full article here:
http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2006-08-25_1258234.html

Optime valete

M. Lucretius Agricola

Salvete Consul Pompeia et Consul Modiane,

I did not see any mention in your cancellation notice that there was
a shortage of manpower but I'm sure Consul Pompeia put two and two
together and figured things out.

It is becoming a real art in itself to find volunteers for many non-
profit organizations and reliable ones at that. More often than not
people start cancelling out at the last moments and leave a few
holding the bag. Like our Mexican association here, I find that 90%
of the worry and stress is not so much the preparation, fund
raising, transport and logistics but the constant terror that many
volunteers will chicken out at the last minute with reasons from
distant relatives that are sick or just died to kids with incurable
diseases or runny noses.

Every year we go through this and I often ask my wife why we bother
to continue. It must be my punishment from the gods for wicked deeds
done!

I guess I was not far off the mark two weeks back when I told a
citizen on the ML that one cannot expect temples and senate houses
to be built when only about 200 souls donate to NR. Perhaps it is a
vicious circle but without money we cannot grow and build and if we
cannot grow and build, citizens complain or lose interest. Hopefully
the figures Consul Pompeia posted will waken some of us up to this
situation.


Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus






--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

>
> ---Pompeia Modiano Consul Sal.
>
> I am sorry that you had to make this announcement. But an event

of

> this magnitude requires many hands. And one or two persons cannot
> properly do the work of many, or be several places at the same
> time. Multitasking is one thing, miracles are another.
> And you've made a realistic appraisal in reasonable time that the
> project just simply isn't going to fly...this year.
>
> Things sometimes happen for reasons we are yet to discover. Maybe
> the weather will be absolutely horrible...or some other reason.
>
> There will be other events, other years I'm sure.
>
> Vale and regrets
>
>
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
> <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
> >
> > It is with much regret that I announce that Elysium Gathering

2006

> has been
> > cancelled. I know there are several people who were looking
> forward to
> > Elysium and I apologize for your disappointment. If it were
> possible for me
> > to go forward with Elysium I surely would, but unfortunately

such

> is not and
> > I apologize to all those who are disappointed by its

cancellation.

> >
> > Valete:
> >
> > G.F.B.M.
> > Consul
> >
> >
> > On 8/20/06, David Kling (Modianus) < tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Elysium Gathering -- September 21st - 24th 2006. **
> > > >
> > > > Elysium Gathering is sponsored by:
> > > >
> > > > Three Roads Grove: www.three-roads.org/index2.html
> > > >
> > > > Ancient Order of Druids in America: www.three-
> roads.org/aoda.html or
> > > > www.aoda.org
> > > >
> > > > Nova Roma: www.three-roads.org/novaroma.html or
> www.novaroma.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Confirmed presenters: (also see: www.three-
> roads.org/workshops.html)
> > > >
> > > > John Michael Greer conducting workshops on "Walking the

Earth

> Path," and
> > > > "Basic AODA Ritual."
> > > >
> > > > John F. Gilbert, PhD conducting workshops on *"**Basic Druid
> Healing* *
> > > > **Techniques," and "How To Combine Druidry With Any

Spritiual

> Path."*
> > > >
> > > > Sara Greer conducting workshops on "*Ancestor Work"
> and "Staying In
> > > > Touch."*
> > > >
> > > > John Plummer, PhD conducting a workshop on "*The Mystery of
> Priesthood."
> > > > *
> > > >
> > > > Other workshops are being put together on ancient Roman
> Religion,
> > > > Gnosticism, and the future of Paganism and more!
> > > >
> > > > What to expect:
> > > >
> > > > Workshops, discussion groups, rituals in several different
> religious
> > > > traditions (Religio Romana, AODA Druidry, Gnostic, Wiccan,
> Hermetic, and
> > > > others).
> > > >
> > > > Fire Spinning, and opportunities to learn Fire Spinning.
> > > >
> > > > Vendors:
> > > >
> > > > Several vendors are already confirmed, but there is room for
> additional
> > > > vendors. Vending is FREE at Elysium, but pre-registration

is

> required of
> > > > all vendors.
> > > >
> > > > For registration information please visit:
> > > > http://www.three-roads.org/registration.html
> > > > [Note: There are day passes available].
> > > > Direct question on Elysium Gathering to: David Kling at:
> *tau.athanasios@
> > > > *
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Iulius Sabinus"
<iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:

>
> SALVE GALE AGORI !
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Galus Agorius Taurinus"
> <g_agorius_taurinus@> wrote:
>
> > Now please, go back to reading your copies of the "Roman Tribune" and
> > watching your daily gladiatorial combats! Nothing to see here. :)
>
> I have read your "Twelvefold declaration of a Modern Pagan". A nice
> and very well structured article. I will post it in my province list.
>
> VALE,
> IVL SABINVS

Good Day! And thank you very much for seeing our site, and your
approval for the XII declaration. It's caused a sensation wherever it
has gone, but we feel it's a good code to measure your actions by.

Gods bless you and yours!

Taurinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
> M. Hortensia Agorio salutem dicit;
> eheu not another posturing civis... we've had enough of
> them. The neo-nazi civix tops you for NR 'Victim of the Week'. Sorry
> Agori but next to his endless sufferings on the ML we've not a drop
> of sympathy to spare;-
>

Sorry, I don't know any neo-nazi civix... whatever that is... on the
other side of the coin you have tossed, I'm not posturing. If
anything, this useless, drama-perpetuating post you made is the
posture here. I am no one's victim; victims don't sting back the way
me and mine do. We have our paths to satisfaction.


Taurinus

Salvete,

(By Ceres Almight, I just hope everybody understand we are discussing
History and historians here. Otherwise... you know NR).

There was two opposite views of the Religio in that time, the patrician and
plebeain. The patrician (which in sometime in the past indeed were
´plebeains´ somewhere else) relied on the cult of the ancestors, the
domestic fire. The plebeians indeed had their gods, sometimes an ara for all
neighboorhood, and very much out of the ´cannons´ of the patrician theology,
since many pebleians couldn´t trace its ancestors to worshipp.

Coulanges says it was opposite views of religio. And even two states within
the state. And - since the state was an extension of the family - Domestic
auspices were needed to get the Public auspices. Without the public
auspices, there wasn´t magistrature possible.

Well, at least - FOR THE PATRICIAN POINT OF VIEW - Surely the plebeians
didn´t see things that way. So there were the many struggles the plebeians
finnaly had win. If there was really a patrician that thought that way (even
Livius suspects it was all political fighting) they were defeated.

Indeed. Ties with the royal family aren´t a proof, but an indicator there
strong sugestions the kings made - if they were - Brutus as patricians. And
the king had the power to make them patricians.

But I like too much this subject. I will rush to my Livius and read book IV
carefully. And I will take a look on ´Ancient City´ of Coulanges, which I´ve
taken all these ideas.

Anyway, I will continue to post Harpers here. It is online and free.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus


2006/8/26, marcushoratius <mhoratius@...>:

>
> Salvete Fauste et Corde
>
> What Cordus was pointing out is true. We are only discussing
> theories. The Romans themselves, in the Late Republic, didn't realy
> know the origin of the distinction, and they offer us their own
> theories. Cornell discusses some of the issues that cast doubts on
> the claims of patrician, but the theory itself, on the closing of
> the patriciate, was put forth by De Sanctis. There are problems
> with Cornell in how he sees archaeological evidence in light of what
> Livy says. The archaeological evidence does not really support
> Cornell's view that Livy is generally accurate in his portrayal of
> Archaic Rome.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@...> wrote:
> >
> > what Fustel de Coulan in ´Ancient City´ said, and my textbook. The
> plebeians
> > weren´t allowed to the curules magistratures because they lack the
> domestic
> > religio only the patricians had. So, the gods of the city, to
> recognize the
> > magistrate in the magistrature, had to recognize a citizen
> ´recognized´ by
> > its own family gods, the ancestors and its family lararium.
>
> MMPH: Earlier I didn't quite catch what Faustus was saying here.
> You are referring to the claims of patricians to having had divine
> ancestors, such as the claim of the Iulii of being descendents of
> Venus. According to Livy those inventions did not begin until the
> fourth century, after the Gallic sack. The archaeological evidence
> also poses the Romans adopting the cultus of Aeneas only late in the
> fourth century, and that this cultus began in Lavinium only in the
> middle fourth century. Other Italic tribes were adopting similar
> mythological origins for themselves in this same time period. The
> Sabines claiming descent from Spartan heroes, the Marrucini from Sol
> through Circe and also from Ulysses. So this argument for patrician
> privileges could not have existed in the fifth century or earlier.
> True, Livy makes use of it in presenting the patrician side of the
> argument, but his was a projection back in time from a later
> development.
>
> Livius had his own perspective, which we would have to take into
> consideration. His first five books were published during Augustus'
> lifetime. Augustus was not too pleased by them. Livius did not
> publish the second set until after Augustus had died. It was then,
> in the prologue to Book VI that he challenged the Iulii claim of a
> divine ancestry, and also cast doubt on all patrician claims to
> special privileges inherited from the Gods.
>
> Valete optime
> Piscinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

"My greatest appreciation is extended to Caius Arminius Reccanellus
Quaestor Consulare et Propraetor Brasilia for his consistent, meticulous
work in managing the tax data. A very dedicated and competent individual."

Indeed. Recanellus did a fantastic work.

AVE!!!


Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

"This was the first instance where the
sanctitas of a Tribunus Plebis had been violated. "


Not really the first. Livius said once (again, I dont know where, but it as
Early-Middle republic) a tribune was found stabbed on the bed, in the eve of
some very tense day of political struggle with the patricians in the Forum,
so the tribunes remained home fearing by their lives.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus


2006/8/24, marcushoratius <mhoratius@...>:

>
> Salve Appi Cicero
>
> Earlier you wrote on the Comitia Centuriata list:
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> --- Pompeia Minucia Strabo wrote:
> Pompeia Minucia Strabo Consul Quiritibus Novae Romae S.P.D.
> (...) a brief report of tax revenues (...) for the year 2759 A.V.C.
> My greatest appreciation is extended to Caius Arminius Reccanellus
> Quaestor Consulare et Propraetor Brasilia for his consistent,
> meticulous work in managing the tax data. A very dedicated and
> competent individual.

Thank you, Pompeia amice. But I've done nothing more my job!!!

Vale
C•ARMINIVS•RECCANELLVS
======================
PROPRAETOR•PROVINCIAE•BRASILIAE
QUAESTOR•NOVAE•ROMAE
SCRIBA
"Quousque tandem, Lula, abutere patientia nostra?"

> "Lucius Arminius Faustus" wrote:

>>>> "My greatest appreciation is extended to Caius Arminius
>>>> Reccanellus Quaestor Consulare et Propraetor Brasilia for his
>>>> consistent, meticulous work in managing the tax data. A very
>>>> dedicated and competent individual."

> Indeed. Recanellus did a fantastic work.
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus

Thank you, Fauste amice. But I've done nothing more my job!!!

BTW, I'm very glad with your return!!!

Vale
C•ARMINIVS•RECCANELLVS
======================
PROPRAETOR•PROVINCIAE•BRASILIAE
QUAESTOR•NOVAE•ROMAE
SCRIBA
"Quousque tandem, Lula, abutere patientia nostra?"

A. Apollonius Q. Suetonio sal.

> I guess I was not far off the mark two weeks back when I told a citizen on the ML that one cannot expect temples and senate houses to be built when only about 200 souls donate to NR. Perhaps it is a vicious circle but without money we cannot grow and build and if we cannot grow and build, citizens complain or lose interest. <

That's true, but I also think it's a bit optimistic to expect people to donate money without any clear idea of what will be done with it. Our strategy for the last eight years has basically been to say "give us money and in a couple of hundred years we hope we'll have enough to build a great big forum". It doesn't seem to be working, and it's not too hard to see why. Yet people have been willing to donate money to get sestertii minted, or to pay for a new website for the Magna Mater project, or other things like that. It's much easier to get people to part with their money when you can present them with a clear and well-budgeted plan, with a fixed sum of money needed and a definite outcome at the end. If we really want to build a temple somewhere, we shouldn't just wait until there's enough tax-money in the treasury and then start thinking about it; we should start working out, right now, how to do it and how much it would cost. Once that's done, *then* we can go looking
for the money. See what I mean?

Ave A. Apollonius Cordes,First off I wish to convey to you my thanks for your advice on prayer.This helps a great deal.As the standpoint of religion is concerned I shall couple your example with that of the treasury and the disire to build a temple.In the Hindu faith many temples are begun as you say as payback to the Gods.One may pay for some brick or stone,some for morter as the Gods have blessed them.Yes a plan should be made and the repay of the Gods invoked as a rememberance for past favors besides the tax base.Perhaps we would have more progress in the end.I for one would pledge an amount to work toward that goal as the Godesses and Gods of Rome have continued to bless me, hence my desire to make good prayers.I hope this makes a little sense.Respectfully,Appius Galerius Aurelianus.

"A. Apollonius Cordus" <a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote: A. Apollonius Q. Suetonio sal.

> I guess I was not far off the mark two weeks back when I told a citizen on the ML that one cannot expect temples and senate houses to be built when only about 200 souls donate to NR. Perhaps it is a vicious circle but without money we cannot grow and build and if we cannot grow and build, citizens complain or lose interest. <

That's true, but I also think it's a bit optimistic to expect people to donate money without any clear idea of what will be done with it. Our strategy for the last eight years has basically been to say "give us money and in a couple of hundred years we hope we'll have enough to build a great big forum". It doesn't seem to be working, and it's not too hard to see why. Yet people have been willing to donate money to get sestertii minted, or to pay for a new website for the Magna Mater project, or other things like that. It's much easier to get people to part with their money when you can present them with a clear and well-budgeted plan, with a fixed sum of money needed and a definite outcome at the end. If we really want to build a temple somewhere, we shouldn't just wait until there's enough tax-money in the treasury and then start thinking about it; we should start working out, right now, how to do it and how much it would cost. Once that's done, *then* we can go looking
for the money. See what I mean?






---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Piscinus!
I liked a lot your "in senatus consultus de re publica defendenda". Don't
you think that lynching is what Senatus did in that Cicero's case?
Vale

If Itaca is well kept, Ulysses can be more time in Ogigia... :)

Vale,
LAF


2006/8/28, C�ARMINIVS�RECCANELLVS <c.arminius.reccanellus@...>:

>
> > "Lucius Arminius Faustus" wrote:
>
> >>>> "My greatest appreciation is extended to Caius Arminius
> >>>> Reccanellus Quaestor Consulare et Propraetor Brasilia for his
> >>>> consistent, meticulous work in managing the tax data. A very
> >>>> dedicated and competent individual."
>
> > Indeed. Recanellus did a fantastic work.
> > Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus
>
> Thank you, Fauste amice. But I've done nothing more my job!!!
>
> BTW, I'm very glad with your return!!!
>
> Vale
> C�ARMINIVS�RECCANELLVS
> ======================
> PROPRAETOR�PROVINCIAE�BRASILIAE
> QUAESTOR�NOVAE�ROMAE
> SCRIBA
> "Quousque tandem, Lula, abutere patientia nostra?"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062%3Aentry%3Dmagistratus&highlight=magistrates

This text is provided here for educational purposes only, and it is not on
full version.

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New York.
Harper and Brothers. 1898.

2. The Relation of the different Magistrates to each other was not
determined, at Rome, by assigning to each office special and distinct powers
and duties; nor were the different magistrates protected against each
other's interference. The earliest magistrates, the consuls, held an
undifferentiated complex of military, judicial, and administrative powers;
and the creation of new magistracies was not at first accompanied (except in
the case of the censors) by any logical separation of these powers. The
trend of development, especially in the later Republic, was towards a
division of provinciae or spheres of power; but the separation never became
complete. Powers of interference were so general as to amount to a
fundamental principle of the constitution�a principle which found its
extreme expression in the tribunate.

The Romans themselves classed their magistrates not according to the kind of
power, but according to the degree of power, which each exercised. Their
term for general power was imperium. The dictator and his lieutenant, the
consuls and the praetors, all had imperium. The consular imperium was minus
as regarded the dictator and his lieutenant, maius as compared with that of
the praetors. The other magistrates (censors, tribunes, aediles, quaestors,
etc.) had not imperium�i. e. their powers were not general, but special.
These, therefore, strictly speaking, were all lower or lesser magistrates
(magistratus minores). The censors, however, by reason of the importance of
their duties, were regularly classed among the magistratus maiores; and so
also, on more technical grounds, were the curule aediles.

Maior potestas. In principle, any magistrate with imperium might issue
commands and prohibitions to any magistrate without imperium. The exceptions
to this rule were as follows: neither the tribunes nor the censors were
subject to the commands or prohibitions of the magistrates with imperium;
and the tribunes might intervene negatively, by prohibitions, against the
acts of all magistrates except the dictator, his lieutenant, and the
censors. The exceptional position of the censors was due to their possession
of a distinct field of duties. They had no occasion to interfere with other
magistrates, and no other magistrates were permitted to interfere with them.
The peculiar position of the tribunes was a survival from the period of the
conflict between the orders. Negatively the tribunes had maior potestas as
against the consuls; but no Roman would have so expressed it, for the Romans
meant by potestas power to act rather than power to prevent.

In principle, again, a magistrate with maius imperium might issue commands
to a magistrate with minus imperium; so that a dictator might command and
restrain a consul, and a consul might similarly direct or check a praetor.

Par potestas. Further possibilities of interference resulted from the fact
that every magistracy except the dictatorship was held by two or more
persons. Between such colleagues there was, in principle, no division of
power; each possessed all the powers of the office. Each, therefore, might
act alone, and without regard to the views or wishes of his colleague or
colleagues; and if they remained passive, his act was valid and effective.
But if a colleague stepped in (intercessit) and forbade the act, then equal
power stood opposed to equal power and the result was a deadlock. This was
true not merely as between two colleagues, but also when a larger number
held the same magistracy; majority rule was not recognized; the negative
will of one was as powerful as the positive will of any larger number. A
veto, therefore, could not be vetoed�a rule which was of peculiar importance
in the tribunate. In that body one tribune could prevent the other nine from
doing any positive act�e. g. from presenting a bill to the people; but nine
tribunes could not prevent one from vetoing the act of a consul or other
magistrate.

Provinciae. In principle, therefore, the positive powers of each magistracy
could be exercised only when the colleagues were of one mind; and this
unanimity was necessary for each single act. In fact, however, some division
of power, by agreement or by lot, was customary from the earliest period of
the Republic (e. g. one consul sometimes took the field with an army while
the other governed the city); but it does not appear that in the early
Republic any such division of the field of consular duties was made for the
year. The assignment to a single magistrate of a distinct field of power for
his full annual term apparently dates from the establishment of the
praetorship. The praetor was not simply a judicial officer, nor was his
authority limited to the city; but by force of constant custom civil
jurisdiction within the city became his peculiar "province." When a second
praetorship was instituted, B.C. 242, a division of the judicial field
became usual; but the assignment to each praetor of his special competence
was made after election and by lot. The same system prevailed when the
number of praetors was successively increased to four, six, and eight, and
when such distinct functions as the government of subject provinces and the
presidency of special criminal courts (quaestiones) were attached to the
office. No Roman was ever elected to a special praetorship; he was simply
elected praetor, and his special duties were determined by lot. The same
system was extended to the quaestors, and gradually, in the later Republic,
to the consuls. For some time after the establishment of the city
praetorship the consuls acted jointly. They even took the field together,
the supreme command alternating day by day. But as foreign wars became more
numerous they began, often by the advice of the Senate, but technically, in
every case, by agreement, to divide the legions and the field of military
operations, and to draw lots for their respective armies and "provinces."
The Senate indeed might recommend or the people decree the assignment of a
particular campaign or territory to a particular magistrate extra sortem;
but this was unusual.

From the fact that all magistrates of equal rank were colleagues with equal
powers and that the division of functions here described was primarily a de
facto rather than a legal division, it followed, in principle, that either
consul could interfere with the other in the field of military operations,
and that any praetor could intercede against the act of any other praetor in
the city. Such interference was practically impossible outside of the city,
if different fields of activity had been assigned to the consuls, because of
the rule that intercession must be made in person; and within the city it
was regularly excluded by custom (but see Cicero, Verr. i. 46, 119).


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

"Silver-tongue" Cordus has all reason. And I voice his speech as my opinion
as well.

From the first day I come to NR, I always thought our desires too
´ethereal´.

The organization will really attain its high goals, but not simply hoarding
money (and money hoarded can disappear in a blink of an eye).

Building things are TOO expensible (as an engineer, I have authority to
say). Specially in some countries. And worst than money, it requires a
terrible planning (For everybody, time is more valuable than own money). And
weven hiring a engineering company to deal with the construction, it
requires time to oversee even this company (qui custodiat custodes?)

Not on this century, neither the next. (And problably the expected next big
capitalism crash will vanish all our money.)

NR could start with small projects. Magna Mater is a good one I see with
excellent reputation.

For exemple, with very little money (compared to a building) we can make our
website an awesome place for spreading the roman culture and classical
research. NR could gain status of a reference on the subject, and earn the
respect in Academic Environment (the word escaped me!).


Valete bene in pacem deorum
L. Arminius Faustus, senator


2006/8/28, flavius leviticus <centorious@...>:

>
>
> Ave A. Apollonius Cordes,First off I wish to convey to you my thanks for
> your advice on prayer.This helps a great deal.As the standpoint of
> religion is concerned I shall couple your example with that of the treasury
> and the disire to build a temple.In the Hindu faith many temples are begun
> as you say as payback to the Gods.One may pay for some brick or stone,some
> for morter as the Gods have blessed them.Yes a plan should be made and the
> repay of the Gods invoked as a rememberance for past favors besides the tax
> base.Perhaps we would have more progress in the end.I for one would pledge
> an amount to work toward that goal as the Godesses and Gods of Rome have
> continued to bless me, hence my desire to make good prayers.I hope this
> makes a little sense.Respectfully,Appius Galerius Aurelianus.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE QUIRITES !

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

> NR could start with small projects. Magna Mater is a good one I

see with excellent reputation.>>>

Yes, indeed !

Don't forget, Quirites, to visit, time to time, our support page :
http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/project/support.htm

Our thanks to investors :
http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/project/investors.htm
( + Suetonius Paulinus )

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS
MMP Coordinator.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Flamen Cerialis S.P.D.

Based on a number of communications, private and public, in the past, I heartily recommend that no honorable Nova Roman give any credence to the opinions or comments of this individual. All any citizen has to do to discover his nature is enter his name for a search in the archives of the main list and read through many of his posts. He usually pops up once or twice a year to deliver a number of unpleasant posts before disappearing again.
My personal opinion is that based on his posts to me last year and before, he lacks integrity or honesty or courage but he has an excellent knowledge of bluster, bombast, and swagger. I invited him to meet with me off list to discover if he has the same convictions in person as he does in emails but he declined. I agree that he doesn't whisper in his emails but he does hide behind the walls of email. I again invite him to meet with me at some future Nova Roman public event to discuss his opinions and I simply mean discuss and talk in front of other citizens. I do not want to frighten him with any sort of promise of physical disagreement.

Maybe I believe in honesty, and have nothing to hide. Your bias
against me in other forums- and here- is plain. The basis for your
bias is non-existent; it is based on lies, rumor, and ad hominem
nonsense, none of which is substantial. I don't whisper and hide
behind walls of email to address my rightful grievances. Many
apologies if that makes you uncomfortable.


Taurinus












Yahoo! Groups Links



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C·CVRIVS·SATVRNINVS·CONCIVIBVS·S·P·D

S·V·B·E·E·V

The 20th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein explained how the
words we use to express our ideas actually have an impact on those
very same ideas. Thought is expressed and defined through language
and, in this case as in many others, the medium shapes the message.
Knowing this, it is evident that, whoever even dreams to understand,
let alone partake in, a culture beyond the most rudimentary and
superficial level, needs to learn the language by which that culture
expresses itself. Translation is never good enough, because what goes
untranslated makes a great difference.

It is the objective of this organization to promote the study of
Roman culture, and many of its members are proud to consider
themselves Roman. In Roman thought, Romanitas is defined by several
cultural, social and religious aspects, and one of the most important
ones is language. After all, we all know that, by definition, the
term "barbarian" itself is defined in linguistic terms, as a person
that speaks neither Greek nor Latin. So how can someone aim at
recreating and adopting Roman culture without speaking the language
of the Romans?

In the Academia Thules, we are convinced that it is necessary to make
an effort to help people to learn Latin. Because of that, and thanks
to the cooperation of two of Nova Roma's most important latinists, we
are offering not one, but TWO alternative paths to learn Latin.

The first path is the so-called traditional path, and it is aimed at
those who prefer a traditional, memory-based grammatically-orientated
approach to the study of ancient languages. A. Tullia Scholastica
will guide the students through a well-known traditional Latin
textbook. The course will be imparted in English, and it is necessary
to own the sixth edition of the textbook:

"Wheelock's Latin" by Frederic M. Wheelock, revised by Richard A.
LaFleur, NY Harper Resource 2000 (Sixth Edition) -- normal price
range: 20-25 US$.

The first course in this path is called Grammatica Latina I. It will
begin September 18, 2006 and will centre on the first 22 lessons of
the book, coupled with additional exercises from the praeceptrix.
There will be examinations to help the students to carry on an
adequate rhythm of study, and there will also be additional sample
material on spoken and modern Latin and modern Latin from the Assimil
course (see below) and elsewhere. Further information about
Grammatica Latina I can be found at the Study Guide:
http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
mainll.html#ll-p-2

The second course based on Wheelock is Grammatica Latina II and is
reserved for those who have already done Grammatica Latina I last
year. Students with good skills in Latin may also be admitted to this
course, but A. Tullia Scholastica will interview all such students on
a case-by case basis. Please see more information about Grammatica
Latina II at the Study Guide:
http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
mainll.html#ll-b-2

The second path is presented by world-famous Latinist A. Gratius
Avitus, and is based on the natural assimilation of grammatical and
syntactical structures by listening to the language in context and
repetition. This course has already been completed by some citizens,
all of whom recommend it to those interested in learning Latin once
and for all.

The path has been divided into two courses, called Sermo Latinus I
and Sermo Latinus II, but there is also a faster option which
combines both courses and is called Sermo Latinus I&II. The starting
date for these courses is 16th of October. Both courses can be
followed with a single copy of Assimil's Latin method, book and
recordings:

"Lingua Latina sine molestia" by Clément Desessard, Assimil --
obtainable through the Assimil website at: http://www.assimil.com/

There are two versions of the textbook; a French version and an
Italian version. It must be noted, however, that students with little
to no French or Italian where able to complete the course last year.
An English or a Spanish version of the material will be provided on a
private basis for those students who need it, altough everyone needs
to buy the published material beforehand.

The lessons, exercises and examinations presented by the praeceptor
will be in English and Spanish in the first course and in Latin in
the second course. It must be stressed that the handbook alone is not
sufficient to follow the course; the Assimil tapes are also necessary
to complete the assimilation process.

Further information about these courses can be found at the Study Guide:
http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
mainll.html#ll-b-1a
http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
mainll.html#ll-b-1b

And for the combined Sermo Latinus I&II:
http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
mainll.html#ll-b-1ab

Those who completed Avitus' course last year, or those who already
speak Latin and are interested in improving and practicing the
language, are invited to follow the Sermo Latinus III course imparted
by Avitus, based on Terence. More information can be found at: http://
www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/mainll.html#ll-i-1c

And general information about studying at Facultas Litterarum at:
http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum

Anyone interested in one of these FREE Latin courses can subscribe at
the Academia Thules website:
http://www.academiathules.org/admissions/
Subscriptions will be accepted until the starting date of each course.

If you have any question about these courses or about the Academia,
please do not hesitate to contact me privately at c.curius AT
academiathules DOT org.

So, what are you waiting for? Stop being a barbarian! Subscribe to
the Academia Latin courses today and get some real education! :-)



C. Curius Saturninus

Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

Just a quick note to say that, as promised, all the leges passed since the lex Equitia de juris dictione have been placed on the wiki. This means that all current leges are available to the public.

For all leges up to and including the lex Equitia de juris dictione, use the old tabularium here:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/

The new leges can be found in the tabularium of the wiki, here:

http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Category:Tabularium_(Nova_Roma)


In chronological order, the new leges are:

Lex Apula de magistro araneario
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Apula_de_magistro_araneario_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Apula de assiduis et capite censis
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Apula_de_assiduis_et_capite_censis_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Popillia senatoria
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Popillia_senatoria_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Apula Popillia de nominibus approbationibusque
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Apula_Popillia_de_nominibus_approbationibusque_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex de imperio C. Buteone Po. Minucia cos.
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_de_imperio_C._Buteone_Po._Minucia_cos._(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Vipsania de consecratione
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Vipsania_de_consecratione_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Moravia de ratione comitiorum plebis tributorum
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Moravia_de_ratione_comitiorum_plebis_tributorum_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Minucia Moravia de ejuratione magistratus comitiorum tributorum
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Minucia_Moravia_de_eiuratione_magistratus_comitiorum_tributorum_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Minucia de legibus abrogandis
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Minucia_de_legibus_abrogandis_(Nova_Roma) )

Lex Minucia Moravia de civitate ejuranda
( http://www.novaroma.org/wiki/Lex_Minucia_Moravia_de_Civitate_Eiuranda_(Nova_Roma) )


The wiki tabularium also contains, for the same period (i.e. since the lex Equitia de juris dictione), all the legislative proposals which were rejected by the comitia, all the constitutional amendments which were rejected by the senate, all the proposals which were withdrawn before voting, all the proposals which were vetoed before voting, and all the leges which have lapsed since their enactment.

We continue to work on making all legal documents available on the wiki.

Salvete,

This subject of long plan of NR, perhaps weren´t always dealt, because of
the short-term of the magistratures. However, this is a good subject for the
Senate, since it is a body that can stand many magistratures and brief the
magistrates on the long term plan.

It is a good idea for the magistrates to start this discussion on the
Senate.

Valete,
L. Arminius Faustus


2006/8/29, Titus Iulius Sabinus <iulius_sabinus@...>:

>
> SALVETE QUIRITES !
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@...> wrote:
>
> > NR could start with small projects. Magna Mater is a good one I
> see with excellent reputation.>>>
>
> Yes, indeed !
>
> Don't forget, Quirites, to visit, time to time, our support page :
> http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/project/support.htm
>
> Our thanks to investors :
> http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/project/investors.htm
> ( + Suetonius Paulinus )
>
> VALE BENE,
> IVL SABINVS
> MMP Coordinator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE NOVI ROMANI !

Ex Officio Curules Aediles.

EDICTUM CURULES AEDILES DE LUDI ROMANI 2759 a.U.c

1. According to the Official Calendar of NOVA ROMA festivals, from
September 5th to September 19th, LUDI ROMANI will be celebrated.

2. The celebration will be held in honour of Jupiter Optimus
Maximus. The events and the games are organized by the Curules
Aediles Cohors.

3.We, the Curules Aediles and our Cohors, have the honour to
present the Ludi Romani program :

September 5 th : opening-religious celebrations
September 6 th : ludi romani history - certamen historicum 1
September 7 th : ludi scaenici
September 8 th : venationes - certamen historicum 2
September 9 th : munera gladiatoria (quarters)
September 10 th : ludi romani cultural day - certamen historicum 3
September 11 th : ludi circenses (quarters)
September 12 th : munera gladiatoria (semifinals) - certamen
historicum 4
September 13 th : ludi romani parade - epulum iovis
September 14 th : probatio equitium - ludi circenses (semifinals) -
certamen historicum 5
September 15 th : munera gladiatoria (finals)
September 16 th : roman recipes contest - certamen historicum 6
September 17 th : ludi romani athletics : pugilatio
September 18 th : ludi circenses (finals)
September 19 th : closing - consul speech

4. The extended program of LUDI ROMANI, including all the
informations that are needed, are presented in the Curules Aediles
website :

http://www.crystalwebvision.com/aedil/index.htm

and to the Ludi webpage :

http://www.crystalwebvision.com/aedil/ludi.htm


5. This Edictum takes force immediately.

Given by Curules Aediles, T. Iulius Sabinus and G. Equitius Cato,
ante diem III Kal. Septembres MMDCCLIX a.U.c, ( 2759 a.U.c ), in the
consulship of G. Fabius Buteo Modianus and P.Tiberia Strabo.

OPTIME VALETE,
Curules Aediles.

Good Day, Citizens of Nova Roma!


I wish to write in and apologize again for the negative things I said
about the Consul Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus. I withdraw all those
statements. I was wrong about him; he is a very good man. Nova Roma is
lucky to have him as Consul.


Taurinus

Salvete Thule Administration,

I filled in the general admission for but where does one sign up for
a particular course for the 2006-2007 year; particularily Latin
level 2 (Wheelock's)

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "C. Curius Saturninus"
<c.curius@...> wrote:

>
> C·CVRIVS·SATVRNINVS·CONCIVIBVS·S·P·D
>
> S·V·B·E·E·V
>
> The 20th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein explained how

the

> words we use to express our ideas actually have an impact on

those

> very same ideas. Thought is expressed and defined through

language

> and, in this case as in many others, the medium shapes the

message.

> Knowing this, it is evident that, whoever even dreams to

understand,

> let alone partake in, a culture beyond the most rudimentary and
> superficial level, needs to learn the language by which that

culture

> expresses itself. Translation is never good enough, because what

goes

> untranslated makes a great difference.
>
> It is the objective of this organization to promote the study of
> Roman culture, and many of its members are proud to consider
> themselves Roman. In Roman thought, Romanitas is defined by

several

> cultural, social and religious aspects, and one of the most

important

> ones is language. After all, we all know that, by definition, the
> term "barbarian" itself is defined in linguistic terms, as a

person

> that speaks neither Greek nor Latin. So how can someone aim at
> recreating and adopting Roman culture without speaking the

language

> of the Romans?
>
> In the Academia Thules, we are convinced that it is necessary to

make

> an effort to help people to learn Latin. Because of that, and

thanks

> to the cooperation of two of Nova Roma's most important latinists,

we

> are offering not one, but TWO alternative paths to learn Latin.
>
> The first path is the so-called traditional path, and it is aimed

at

> those who prefer a traditional, memory-based grammatically-

orientated

> approach to the study of ancient languages. A. Tullia Scholastica
> will guide the students through a well-known traditional Latin
> textbook. The course will be imparted in English, and it is

necessary

> to own the sixth edition of the textbook:
>
> "Wheelock's Latin" by Frederic M. Wheelock, revised by Richard A.
> LaFleur, NY Harper Resource 2000 (Sixth Edition) -- normal price
> range: 20-25 US$.
>
> The first course in this path is called Grammatica Latina I. It

will

> begin September 18, 2006 and will centre on the first 22 lessons

of

> the book, coupled with additional exercises from the praeceptrix.
> There will be examinations to help the students to carry on an
> adequate rhythm of study, and there will also be additional

sample

> material on spoken and modern Latin and modern Latin from the

Assimil

> course (see below) and elsewhere. Further information about
> Grammatica Latina I can be found at the Study Guide:
> http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> mainll.html#ll-p-2
>
> The second course based on Wheelock is Grammatica Latina II and

is

> reserved for those who have already done Grammatica Latina I last
> year. Students with good skills in Latin may also be admitted to

this

> course, but A. Tullia Scholastica will interview all such students

on

> a case-by case basis. Please see more information about

Grammatica

> Latina II at the Study Guide:
> http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> mainll.html#ll-b-2
>
> The second path is presented by world-famous Latinist A. Gratius
> Avitus, and is based on the natural assimilation of grammatical

and

> syntactical structures by listening to the language in context

and

> repetition. This course has already been completed by some

citizens,

> all of whom recommend it to those interested in learning Latin

once

> and for all.
>
> The path has been divided into two courses, called Sermo Latinus

I

> and Sermo Latinus II, but there is also a faster option which
> combines both courses and is called Sermo Latinus I&II. The

starting

> date for these courses is 16th of October. Both courses can be
> followed with a single copy of Assimil's Latin method, book and
> recordings:
>
> "Lingua Latina sine molestia" by Clément Desessard, Assimil --
> obtainable through the Assimil website at: http://www.assimil.com/
>
> There are two versions of the textbook; a French version and an
> Italian version. It must be noted, however, that students with

little

> to no French or Italian where able to complete the course last

year.

> An English or a Spanish version of the material will be provided

on a

> private basis for those students who need it, altough everyone

needs

> to buy the published material beforehand.
>
> The lessons, exercises and examinations presented by the

praeceptor

> will be in English and Spanish in the first course and in Latin

in

> the second course. It must be stressed that the handbook alone is

not

> sufficient to follow the course; the Assimil tapes are also

necessary

> to complete the assimilation process.
>
> Further information about these courses can be found at the Study

Guide:

> http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> mainll.html#ll-b-1a
> http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> mainll.html#ll-b-1b
>
> And for the combined Sermo Latinus I&II:
> http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> mainll.html#ll-b-1ab
>
> Those who completed Avitus' course last year, or those who

already

> speak Latin and are interested in improving and practicing the
> language, are invited to follow the Sermo Latinus III course

imparted

> by Avitus, based on Terence. More information can be found at:

http://

>

www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/mainll.html#ll-
i-1c

>
> And general information about studying at Facultas Litterarum at:
> http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum
>
> Anyone interested in one of these FREE Latin courses can subscribe

at

> the Academia Thules website:
> http://www.academiathules.org/admissions/
> Subscriptions will be accepted until the starting date of each

course.

>
> If you have any question about these courses or about the

Academia,

> please do not hesitate to contact me privately at c.curius AT
> academiathules DOT org.
>
> So, what are you waiting for? Stop being a barbarian! Subscribe

to

> the Academia Latin courses today and get some real education! :-)
>
>
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
>
> Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@...
> www.academiathules.org
> gsm: +358-50-3315279
> fax: +358-9-8754751
>

A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

It seems the links I sent aren't working very well. To get to the right destinations, select and copy the link and paste it into your browser. It should end with "(Nova Roma)". Alternatively, go to the wiki main page, follow the link to the tabularium, and then follow the individual links from there.

Salve Agori Taurine, et salvete omnes,

One might think it odd for one such as I to come to your defense,
though understanding the larger picture at work, it actually isn't. A
previous post was made that cast yet more dirt on you, directing
others to search the archives for previous posts as if you are the
same person through the months and years. We've even had words before
you and I- yet I have noticed in time, in my readings of NR posts,
that you have developed personally through your pursuit of classicism
and that is one of the unwritten goals of NR- the civilizing effects
of Romanitas. One of the weaknesses of NR as I see it is that it
showers attention and comfort on the newcomer yet once they become an
active citizen, the "gloves come off" and I think yours is a perfect
example. Maybe you should make an additional homepage for your gens?
Perhaps write more articles in support of paganism? Then will you get
respect from your peers? It's quite silly! Unfortunately, it's human
nature at work- found in NR or anywhere else. So I would encourage
you, to keep moving forward and not let some drag you down because of
very worldly and human (though not necessarily unRoman) reasons. I do
believe you have developed yourself in a positive and decorous way
through NR- and that is one of it's strengths.

Vale, et valete bene,
L. Fidelius Graecus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Galus Agorius Taurinus"
<g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Good Day, Citizens of Nova Roma!
>
>
> I wish to write in and apologize again for the negative things I said
> about the Consul Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus. I withdraw all those
> statements. I was wrong about him; he is a very good man. Nova Roma

is

> lucky to have him as Consul.
>
>
> Taurinus
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "l_fidelius_graecus"
<l_fidelius_graecus@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Agori Taurine, et salvete omnes,
>
> One might think it odd for one such as I to come to your defense,
> though understanding the larger picture at work, it actually isn't. A
> previous post was made that cast yet more dirt on you, directing
> others to search the archives for previous posts as if you are the
> same person through the months and years. We've even had words before
> you and I- yet I have noticed in time, in my readings of NR posts,
> that you have developed personally through your pursuit of classicism
> and that is one of the unwritten goals of NR- the civilizing effects
> of Romanitas.

Actually, one of the reasons why I don't mind having a manure-slinger
coming in and directing people to look for my words on this list is
because I'm not really ashamed of what I've said here, and I don't
live a life of regrets or second-guessing. I was a very different
person when I joined NR years ago. I've had a child since then,
published two books, developed more in my spirituality and in my life
in other ways. I've seen human lives end and I've seen my daughter's
life begin since then, and that really puts a lot of things in
perspective for me.

So are there things I said here, long ago, that I probably wouldn't
say now, things I'd probably phrase better or nicer, or not phrase at
all? Without a doubt. But if someone wants to judge me by things I
said years ago on an e-list on Yahoo!, then that person needs to
revise their criteria for judging others. A person who could really
dislike me over things I said here months or years ago is a person who
has no interest in the truth about me; they'd just be looking for a
reason to dislike me.

And really, why search for a reason to dislike me? If they asked, I
could just give them a few. But we don't need to take things to that
level- as you said, aren't we all... civilized here? ;)


Actually, the real answer is that I am very much a disciple (in ways)
if Marcus Aurelius, as you have no doubt seen in my essay:

http://www.robinartisson.com/agoria/marcus.htm


This essay has made some waves online- Penton magazine published it,
and did a good job, too, I must say.

At any rate, Marcus says something in his meditations that always
helps me in my dealings with critics:


"We are all working together towards a single end, some consciously
and with understanding, some without knowledge, as Heraclitus, I
think, says that "even sleepers are workers and fellow workers in what
comes to pass in the world." One helps in one way, one in another, and
even he who finds fault and tries to resist or destroy what is coming
to pass; for the Universe has need even for such a one. Finally,
therefore, see with which you will take your post, for in any event He
who controls the Whole will employ you aright and will accept you as
one part of the fellow-laborers and fellow-workers; only take care
that you do not become a cheap and ridiculous verse in the comedy."



Pay close attention to this line:

"Even sleepers are workers and fellow workers in what comes to pass in
the world. One helps in one way, one in another, and even he who finds
fault and tries to resist or destroy what is coming to pass; for the
Universe has need even for such a one."



I know my place in the great scheme of things, and I have serenity
thereby. People that resist me and the people that help me, and the
people I resist, and the people I help, we're all where we are
supposed to be, doing what we are doing, and I see a greater force at
work in these events- Fate. So I try not to get carried away.





One of the weaknesses of NR as I see it is that it

> showers attention and comfort on the newcomer yet once they become an
> active citizen, the "gloves come off" and I think yours is a perfect
> example. Maybe you should make an additional homepage for your gens?
> Perhaps write more articles in support of paganism? Then will you get
> respect from your peers? It's quite silly! Unfortunately, it's human
> nature at work- found in NR or anywhere else. So I would encourage
> you, to keep moving forward and not let some drag you down because of
> very worldly and human (though not necessarily unRoman) reasons.

Good sir, I can tell you- that will never happen. I'd have to be dead
before I stopped, and even then, I doubt I'd stop- I'd keep writing
down in Hades, and trying to get my work smuggled back up to the
sunlit world.




I do

> believe you have developed yourself in a positive and decorous way
> through NR- and that is one of it's strengths.
>

There's something else you need to know- I find the politics of NR
almost impossible to keep up with. I'd have to dig back in the
archives myself to find out what you and I's dispute was over. I
really don't recall.

When I apologized to publically Modianus, I was instantly hit by three
emails from people in Nova Roma- I won't name names, because that's
against my ethics- but clearly, politics has reared an ugly head here
again. I don't know who hates who and where factions are now, but some
of the mails expressed concern that I had been "threatened" (lol) into
apologizing and others _actually_ told me to retract my apology
(another lol) because my first assessment of the Consul, they said,
was more correct.

Another was trying to feel me out, it seemed, to see if my post meant
that I was "getting friendly" with another "side"- but I swear to the
Gods- I don't actually HAVE a "side" here. The only thing I DO
remember was that the Boni had no love for me, and I not much for
them. That was about it- and what, exactly, the root of my conflict
was with them, I don't recall. I think it went back to the fact that I
was against live animal sacrifice for religious purposes, to be honest.

Point is, I wish someone who is truly neutral here, and yet
well-versed in NR politics, would write to me privately and update me
on the "status of factions" here, and explain to me a little about why
an apology to the Consul would result in behind-the-scenes political
scurrying. Call it my need to know.

Sir, I have no grudge against you, regardless of what I may have said
in the past. I'm forgiving by nature, besides, even if you had given
me a cause to dislike you. I'm in NR because it is an organization
with a LOT of real pagans in it- good, solid, non-fluff bunnies, who
believe in THE GODS, not "The God" and "The Goddess". I'm a
traditional Pagan myself, and it's refreshing to see such a huge
community of true polytheists. I'm here because NR honors Gods and
Goddesses that I believe in. I never came here with the intention of
getting political. All I really want is possibly to hold a religious
office, some minor priesthood one day, perhaps. All in good time.


Taurinus

Salve Fauste

Genucius was murdered in 449 BCE, for attempting to exercise
coercito to arrest consules Manlius and Furrius while they were
still in office. The lex Valeria Horatis of the same year, after the
murder, defined the potestes tribunicia, and by that lex it was made
that coercito could not be exercised on sitting magistrates. But he
wasn't a tribune at the time. He had been tribune in 452.

In 436 BCE Sp. Maelius (Livy 4.21.3-4) was assassinated by the
patrician C. Servilius Ahala for providing grain to the poor at rock
bottom prices during a food shortage. Earlier, for 439 BCE, Livy
made mention that he was killed for trying to make himself a king by
that same means(4.13-16). But this reference would be to the later
event, i. e. in 436 BCE. So like Genucius, Spurius Manlius wasn't
murdered by Ahala until after he had left office. He was not a
tribune at the time of his murder, ergo the sanctitas of a tribunus
plebis had not been violated.

Vale
Piscinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

>
> Salve,
>
> "This was the first instance where the
> sanctitas of a Tribunus Plebis had been violated. "
>
>
> Not really the first. Livius said once (again, I dont know where,

but it as

> Early-Middle republic) a tribune was found stabbed on the bed, in

the eve of

> some very tense day of political struggle with the patricians in

the Forum,

> so the tribunes remained home fearing by their lives.
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
>
> 2006/8/24, marcushoratius <mhoratius@...>:
> >
> > Salve Appi Cicero
> >
> > Earlier you wrote on the Comitia Centuriata list:
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Appi Cicero

Cicero abused the authority of his office. It was Cicero, not the
Senate, that executed Lentullus and five others without trial. The
Senate had only consented that they be held for trial. Later Cicero
tried to claim otherwise. But no one in Rome really bought his
argument. Even Cicero's closest friends deserted him over that issue.

Doubtful was the case made by Cicero against Lentullus and the other
five. And the fact that he executed them before a trial was conducted
casts even more suspicion on whether they were guilty of any crime of
sedition. Cicero acted outside the law, so I suppose you could say
that your namesake committed a lynching. I don't see where you can
pose that the Senate was culpable in Cicero's crimes.

Vale
Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Guzzo" <claudio.guzzo@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Piscinus!
> I liked a lot your "in senatus consultus de re publica defendenda".

Don't

> you think that lynching is what Senatus did in that Cicero's case?
> Vale
>

> Salve, Q. Suetoni Pauline, et salvete, omnes!
>
>
>
> Salvete Thule Administration,
>
> I filled in the general admission for but where does one sign up for
> a particular course for the 2006-2007 year; particularily Latin
> level 2 (Wheelock's)
>
> ATS: You mean you WANT to take my Latin course? ;-)
> Tentatively, that one will begin September 11th, but real instruction won¹t
> occur until a few days later as I have a duty to perform to IOM (and Sabinus)
> re the Ludi Romani. I think you¹ll have to wait for Saturninus¹ instructions;
> we are just starting a new system, and there are some wrinkles to be ironed
> out. Astur is scheduled to return tomorrow, and Saturninus is sleeping in
> Finland...
>
> I have only six more lessons to write for the intermediate class...
>
> Memo to beginners: those who wish to take traditional Latin I, Grammatica
> Latina I, as it is now called, MUST order the textbook NOW. There is a
> website which provides the text of the introduction and all of the
> vocabularies, the latter with sound files, but the mandatory homework and
> other material is only in the text, supplemented by my lessons. Avitus would
> say that those who wish to take Sermo Latinus I or combined I & II should also
> order the text NOW, in their choice of French or Italian; we have translations
> into English and Spanish for at least the Level I course BUT ONLY FOR THOSE
> WHO NEED THEM DESPERATELY. We who took this course the first year it was
> offered managed with the original French or Italian.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica,
> Praeceptrix Linguae Latinae Academiae Thules
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "C.
> Curius Saturninus"
> <c.curius@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > C·CVRIVS·SATVRNINVS·CONCIVIBVS·S·P·D
>> >
>> > S·V·B·E·E·V
>> >
>> > The 20th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein explained how
> the
>> > words we use to express our ideas actually have an impact on
> those
>> > very same ideas. Thought is expressed and defined through
> language
>> > and, in this case as in many others, the medium shapes the
> message.
>> > Knowing this, it is evident that, whoever even dreams to
> understand,
>> > let alone partake in, a culture beyond the most rudimentary and
>> > superficial level, needs to learn the language by which that
> culture
>> > expresses itself. Translation is never good enough, because what
> goes
>> > untranslated makes a great difference.
>> >
>> > It is the objective of this organization to promote the study of
>> > Roman culture, and many of its members are proud to consider
>> > themselves Roman. In Roman thought, Romanitas is defined by
> several
>> > cultural, social and religious aspects, and one of the most
> important
>> > ones is language. After all, we all know that, by definition, the
>> > term "barbarian" itself is defined in linguistic terms, as a
> person
>> > that speaks neither Greek nor Latin. So how can someone aim at
>> > recreating and adopting Roman culture without speaking the
> language
>> > of the Romans?
>> >
>> > In the Academia Thules, we are convinced that it is necessary to
> make
>> > an effort to help people to learn Latin. Because of that, and
> thanks
>> > to the cooperation of two of Nova Roma's most important latinists,
> we
>> > are offering not one, but TWO alternative paths to learn Latin.
>> >
>> > The first path is the so-called traditional path, and it is aimed
> at
>> > those who prefer a traditional, memory-based grammatically-
> orientated
>> > approach to the study of ancient languages. A. Tullia Scholastica
>> > will guide the students through a well-known traditional Latin
>> > textbook. The course will be imparted in English, and it is
> necessary
>> > to own the sixth edition of the textbook:
>> >
>> > "Wheelock's Latin" by Frederic M. Wheelock, revised by Richard A.
>> > LaFleur, NY Harper Resource 2000 (Sixth Edition) -- normal price
>> > range: 20-25 US$.
>> >
>> > The first course in this path is called Grammatica Latina I. It
> will
>> > begin September 18, 2006 and will centre on the first 22 lessons
> of
>> > the book, coupled with additional exercises from the praeceptrix.
>> > There will be examinations to help the students to carry on an
>> > adequate rhythm of study, and there will also be additional
> sample
>> > material on spoken and modern Latin and modern Latin from the
> Assimil
>> > course (see below) and elsewhere. Further information about
>> > Grammatica Latina I can be found at the Study Guide:
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
>> > mainll.html#ll-p-2
>> >
>> > The second course based on Wheelock is Grammatica Latina II and
> is
>> > reserved for those who have already done Grammatica Latina I last
>> > year. Students with good skills in Latin may also be admitted to
> this
>> > course, but A. Tullia Scholastica will interview all such students
> on
>> > a case-by case basis. Please see more information about
> Grammatica
>> > Latina II at the Study Guide:
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
>> > mainll.html#ll-b-2
>> >
>> > The second path is presented by world-famous Latinist A. Gratius
>> > Avitus, and is based on the natural assimilation of grammatical
> and
>> > syntactical structures by listening to the language in context
> and
>> > repetition. This course has already been completed by some
> citizens,
>> > all of whom recommend it to those interested in learning Latin
> once
>> > and for all.
>> >
>> > The path has been divided into two courses, called Sermo Latinus
> I
>> > and Sermo Latinus II, but there is also a faster option which
>> > combines both courses and is called Sermo Latinus I&II. The
> starting
>> > date for these courses is 16th of October. Both courses can be
>> > followed with a single copy of Assimil's Latin method, book and
>> > recordings:
>> >
>> > "Lingua Latina sine molestia" by Clément Desessard, Assimil --
>> > obtainable through the Assimil website at: http://www.assimil.com/
>> >
>> > There are two versions of the textbook; a French version and an
>> > Italian version. It must be noted, however, that students with
> little
>> > to no French or Italian where able to complete the course last
> year.
>> > An English or a Spanish version of the material will be provided
> on a
>> > private basis for those students who need it, altough everyone
> needs
>> > to buy the published material beforehand.
>> >
>> > The lessons, exercises and examinations presented by the
> praeceptor
>> > will be in English and Spanish in the first course and in Latin
> in
>> > the second course. It must be stressed that the handbook alone is
> not
>> > sufficient to follow the course; the Assimil tapes are also
> necessary
>> > to complete the assimilation process.
>> >
>> > Further information about these courses can be found at the Study
> Guide:
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
>> > mainll.html#ll-b-1a
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
>> > mainll.html#ll-b-1b
>> >
>> > And for the combined Sermo Latinus I&II:
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
>> > mainll.html#ll-b-1ab
>> >
>> > Those who completed Avitus' course last year, or those who
> already
>> > speak Latin and are interested in improving and practicing the
>> > language, are invited to follow the Sermo Latinus III course
> imparted
>> > by Avitus, based on Terence. More information can be found at:
> http://
>> >
> www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/mainll.html#ll-
> i-1c
>> >
>> > And general information about studying at Facultas Litterarum at:
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum
>> >
>> > Anyone interested in one of these FREE Latin courses can subscribe
> at
>> > the Academia Thules website:
>> > http://www.academiathules.org/admissions/
>> > Subscriptions will be accepted until the starting date of each
> course.
>> >
>> > If you have any question about these courses or about the
> Academia,
>> > please do not hesitate to contact me privately at c.curius AT
>> > academiathules DOT org.
>> >
>> > So, what are you waiting for? Stop being a barbarian! Subscribe
> to
>> > the Academia Latin courses today and get some real education! :-)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > C. Curius Saturninus
>> >
>> > Propraetor Provinciae Thules
>> > Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>> >
>> > e-mail: c.curius@...
>> > www.academiathules.org
>> > gsm: +358-50-3315279
>> > fax: +358-9-8754751
>> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Galus Agorius Taurinus"
<g_agorius_taurinus@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "l_fidelius_graecus"
> <l_fidelius_graecus@> wrote:

> > One of the weaknesses of NR as I see it is that it
> > showers attention and comfort on the newcomer yet once they
> > become an active citizen, the "gloves come off" and I think
> > yours is a perfect example. ...

> Good sir, I can tell you- that will never happen. I'd have to be
> dead before I stopped, and even then, I doubt I'd stop- I'd keep
> writing down in Hades, and trying to get my work smuggled back up
> to the sunlit world.

I never doubted that- since you make a career of the subject. Many
do not however and have fled NR over lesser issues.

> There's something else you need to know- I find the politics of NR
> almost impossible to keep up with. I'd have to dig back in the
> archives myself to find out what you and I's dispute was over. I
> really don't recall.

It didn't really matter, though for the sake of the curious, it was
an exchange relating to the release of the Alexander the Great
movie. We did not agree on a generalization you made of ancient
Greece being tolerant of homosexuality.

> When I apologized to publically Modianus, I was instantly hit by
> three emails from people in Nova Roma- I won't name names, because
> that's against my ethics- but clearly, politics has reared an ugly
> head here again.

I wouldn't characterize that as political as much as social. Actual
Roman politics don't actually occur enough- the last I recall was an
ousting of a citizen.

> I'm in NR because it is an organization with a LOT of real pagans
> in it- good, solid, non-fluff bunnies, who believe in THE GODS,
> not "The God" and "The Goddess". I'm a traditional Pagan myself,
> and it's refreshing to see such a huge community of true
> polytheists. I'm here because NR honors Gods and Goddesses that I
> believe in. I never came here with the intention of
> getting political. All I really want is possibly to hold a
> religious office, some minor priesthood one day, perhaps. All in
> good time.

I suggest that there may be more to the reverse than you indicate-
that what you believe is much informed by organizations like NR and
Hellenion. Your writings (and behavior over time in my opinion) are
shaped by classicism and classical virtue rather than in the
honoring of gods ie...

> Actually, the real answer is that I am very much a disciple (in
> ways) if Marcus Aurelius, as you have no doubt seen in my essay:
>
> http://www.robinartisson.com/agoria/marcus.htm

Vale
Graecus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "l_fidelius_graecus"
<l_fidelius_graecus@...> wrote:

> It didn't really matter, though for the sake of the curious, it was
> an exchange relating to the release of the Alexander the Great
> movie. We did not agree on a generalization you made of ancient
> Greece being tolerant of homosexuality.
>

Um... I think that ancient Greece was more tolerant of it than you
might imagine. I still stand by that. The question is really a matter
of "what do you mean by tolerance?" I don't think they believed men or
women being together was morally evil or in the spite of any Divine
figure, and I still stand by that. The same cannot be said for say...
christianity, with concerns to homosexuality.

> > When I apologized to publically Modianus, I was instantly hit by
> > three emails from people in Nova Roma- I won't name names, because
> > that's against my ethics- but clearly, politics has reared an ugly
> > head here again.
>
> I wouldn't characterize that as political as much as social. Actual
> Roman politics don't actually occur enough- the last I recall was an
> ousting of a citizen.

Well THAT had to be exciting. I sincerely hope the citizen was
deserving of what happened, and guilty as charged.

> I suggest that there may be more to the reverse than you indicate-
> that what you believe is much informed by organizations like NR and
> Hellenion. Your writings (and behavior over time in my opinion) are
> shaped by classicism and classical virtue rather than in the
> honoring of gods ie...

I was pagan long before there was a Hellenion or a NR. My writings on
classical paganism- what few I've done- are naturally inspired by
classical literature that I've read, but you don't know even a
fraction of what I write. All you've seen is some essays I wrote years
ago, and one I wrote a few months ago, at the Gens Agoria site.

I have two books out, and soon a third, in regards to Northern
European Traditional Paganism and Witchcraft, which is my main
occupation, spiritually and actually. I read Marcus Aurelius because
my BA, my first trip through academia, was at a small liberal arts
college, where Classicism was the ruling force. I first read the
Meditations there, the Aeneid there, and the Iliad. But my mother's
family is all of British Isles extraction. I believe in something
called the "Distaff Line", which is an ancient belief that the
mother's line is the line by which the spirit comes to the child. In
other words, your father may donate vital power to unlock your
mother's womb, and your blood is half your fathers', your actual
spiritual identity comes from the mother. It's sort of a metaphysical
MtDNA belief, in an odd sense.

No western pagan can escape the reach and influence of the Classical.
I'm no different, considering my educational background. But I spent
this entire evening doing Blots- sacrifices- for the Gods of the Far
North- my Gods, the Gods, and in two days, my newborn daughter's Vasa
Audni rite is going to be done here in our Ve. I am a part of Heidni;
it is my way. I am a Seidman, and Redesman to our Kindred here.

I was serving the Gods in the manner of the Heithinns for a long time
before I sat down to set Hellenic-themed writings to virtual paper. I
am part of the tradition sprung from the great hero Sveinbjörn
Beinteinsson, who in 1972 gained legal recognition from the government
of Iceland for Heidni.

Nothing about me takes a second seat to honoring the Gods. My writing
is a small part of what I am, religiously. My "virtues" aren't
terribly classical as you mean it- if you met me in person, you'd see
what I meant. A sense of Fatalism isn't only classical; the belief in
Wyrd and in Fatalism was very well entrenched in the Far North. We are
hard Ale-drinking, boastful people, who are proud of our Gods, our
religious culture, and our ancestors. We aren't "civilized" like you'd
want to see- and happy for that! Marcus Aurelius was a very wise man,
and like any good Heithinn, I honor wisdom and wise men.


Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel...

Taurinus

Salve A. Tullia Scholastica,

Thanks for your reply; I'll keep my eyes open for his announcement.


Vale bene,

QSP




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:

>
> > Salve, Q. Suetoni Pauline, et salvete, omnes!
> >
> >
> >
> > Salvete Thule Administration,
> >
> > I filled in the general admission for but where does one sign up

for

> > a particular course for the 2006-2007 year; particularily Latin
> > level 2 (Wheelock's)
> >
> > ATS: You mean you WANT to take my Latin course? ;-)
> > Tentatively, that one will begin September 11th, but real

instruction won¹t

> > occur until a few days later as I have a duty to perform to IOM

(and Sabinus)

> > re the Ludi Romani. I think you¹ll have to wait for Saturninus¹

instructions;

> > we are just starting a new system, and there are some wrinkles

to be ironed

> > out. Astur is scheduled to return tomorrow, and Saturninus is

sleeping in

> > Finland...
> >
> > I have only six more lessons to write for the intermediate

class...

> >
> > Memo to beginners: those who wish to take traditional Latin

I, Grammatica

> > Latina I, as it is now called, MUST order the textbook NOW.

There is a

> > website which provides the text of the introduction and all of

the

> > vocabularies, the latter with sound files, but the mandatory

homework and

> > other material is only in the text, supplemented by my lessons.

Avitus would

> > say that those who wish to take Sermo Latinus I or combined I &

II should also

> > order the text NOW, in their choice of French or Italian; we

have translations

> > into English and Spanish for at least the Level I course BUT

ONLY FOR THOSE

> > WHO NEED THEM DESPERATELY. We who took this course the first

year it was

> > offered managed with the original French or Italian.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
> >
> > Vale, et valete,
> >
> > A. Tullia Scholastica,
> > Praeceptrix Linguae Latinae Academiae Thules
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%

40yahoogroups.com> , "C.

> > Curius Saturninus"
> > <c.curius@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > C·CVRIVS·SATVRNINVS·CONCIVIBVS·S·P·D
> >> >
> >> > S·V·B·E·E·V
> >> >
> >> > The 20th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein explained how
> > the
> >> > words we use to express our ideas actually have an impact on
> > those
> >> > very same ideas. Thought is expressed and defined through
> > language
> >> > and, in this case as in many others, the medium shapes the
> > message.
> >> > Knowing this, it is evident that, whoever even dreams to
> > understand,
> >> > let alone partake in, a culture beyond the most rudimentary

and

> >> > superficial level, needs to learn the language by which that
> > culture
> >> > expresses itself. Translation is never good enough, because

what

> > goes
> >> > untranslated makes a great difference.
> >> >
> >> > It is the objective of this organization to promote the study

of

> >> > Roman culture, and many of its members are proud to consider
> >> > themselves Roman. In Roman thought, Romanitas is defined by
> > several
> >> > cultural, social and religious aspects, and one of the most
> > important
> >> > ones is language. After all, we all know that, by definition,

the

> >> > term "barbarian" itself is defined in linguistic terms, as a
> > person
> >> > that speaks neither Greek nor Latin. So how can someone aim at
> >> > recreating and adopting Roman culture without speaking the
> > language
> >> > of the Romans?
> >> >
> >> > In the Academia Thules, we are convinced that it is necessary

to

> > make
> >> > an effort to help people to learn Latin. Because of that, and
> > thanks
> >> > to the cooperation of two of Nova Roma's most important

latinists,

> > we
> >> > are offering not one, but TWO alternative paths to learn

Latin.

> >> >
> >> > The first path is the so-called traditional path, and it is

aimed

> > at
> >> > those who prefer a traditional, memory-based grammatically-
> > orientated
> >> > approach to the study of ancient languages. A. Tullia

Scholastica

> >> > will guide the students through a well-known traditional Latin
> >> > textbook. The course will be imparted in English, and it is
> > necessary
> >> > to own the sixth edition of the textbook:
> >> >
> >> > "Wheelock's Latin" by Frederic M. Wheelock, revised by

Richard A.

> >> > LaFleur, NY Harper Resource 2000 (Sixth Edition) -- normal

price

> >> > range: 20-25 US$.
> >> >
> >> > The first course in this path is called Grammatica Latina I.

It

> > will
> >> > begin September 18, 2006 and will centre on the first 22

lessons

> > of
> >> > the book, coupled with additional exercises from the

praeceptrix.

> >> > There will be examinations to help the students to carry on an
> >> > adequate rhythm of study, and there will also be additional
> > sample
> >> > material on spoken and modern Latin and modern Latin from the
> > Assimil
> >> > course (see below) and elsewhere. Further information about
> >> > Grammatica Latina I can be found at the Study Guide:
> >> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> >> > mainll.html#ll-p-2
> >> >
> >> > The second course based on Wheelock is Grammatica Latina II

and

> > is
> >> > reserved for those who have already done Grammatica Latina I

last

> >> > year. Students with good skills in Latin may also be admitted

to

> > this
> >> > course, but A. Tullia Scholastica will interview all such

students

> > on
> >> > a case-by case basis. Please see more information about
> > Grammatica
> >> > Latina II at the Study Guide:
> >> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> >> > mainll.html#ll-b-2
> >> >
> >> > The second path is presented by world-famous Latinist A.

Gratius

> >> > Avitus, and is based on the natural assimilation of

grammatical

> > and
> >> > syntactical structures by listening to the language in context
> > and
> >> > repetition. This course has already been completed by some
> > citizens,
> >> > all of whom recommend it to those interested in learning Latin
> > once
> >> > and for all.
> >> >
> >> > The path has been divided into two courses, called Sermo

Latinus

> > I
> >> > and Sermo Latinus II, but there is also a faster option which
> >> > combines both courses and is called Sermo Latinus I&II. The
> > starting
> >> > date for these courses is 16th of October. Both courses can be
> >> > followed with a single copy of Assimil's Latin method, book

and

> >> > recordings:
> >> >
> >> > "Lingua Latina sine molestia" by Clément Desessard, Assimil --
> >> > obtainable through the Assimil website at:

http://www.assimil.com/

> >> >
> >> > There are two versions of the textbook; a French version and

an

> >> > Italian version. It must be noted, however, that students with
> > little
> >> > to no French or Italian where able to complete the course last
> > year.
> >> > An English or a Spanish version of the material will be

provided

> > on a
> >> > private basis for those students who need it, altough everyone
> > needs
> >> > to buy the published material beforehand.
> >> >
> >> > The lessons, exercises and examinations presented by the
> > praeceptor
> >> > will be in English and Spanish in the first course and in

Latin

> > in
> >> > the second course. It must be stressed that the handbook

alone is

> > not
> >> > sufficient to follow the course; the Assimil tapes are also
> > necessary
> >> > to complete the assimilation process.
> >> >
> >> > Further information about these courses can be found at the

Study

> > Guide:
> >> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> >> > mainll.html#ll-b-1a
> >> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> >> > mainll.html#ll-b-1b
> >> >
> >> > And for the combined Sermo Latinus I&II:
> >> > http://www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/
> >> > mainll.html#ll-b-1ab
> >> >
> >> > Those who completed Avitus' course last year, or those who
> > already
> >> > speak Latin and are interested in improving and practicing the
> >> > language, are invited to follow the Sermo Latinus III course
> > imparted
> >> > by Avitus, based on Terence. More information can be found at:
> > http://
> >> >
> >

www.academiathules.org/studyguide/facultaslitterarum/mainll.html#ll-

> > i-1c
> >> >
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Salve, Piscine,

As the gods themselves are leading these discussions, yesterday I´ve open
Appian´s Civil Wars Book exactly on the page where Marcus Antonius orders
the execution of a Tribune Plebs, I cant recall the name. But surely there
were degenerated times...


Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus

2006/8/30, marcushoratius <mhoratius@...>:

>
> Salve Fauste
>
> Genucius was murdered in 449 BCE, for attempting to exercise
> coercito to arrest consules Manlius and Furrius while they were
> still in office. The lex Valeria Horatis of the same year, after the
> murder, defined the potestes tribunicia, and by that lex it was made
> that coercito could not be exercised on sitting magistrates. But he
> wasn't a tribune at the time. He had been tribune in 452.
>
> In 436 BCE Sp. Maelius (Livy 4.21.3-4) was assassinated by the
> patrician C. Servilius Ahala for providing grain to the poor at rock
> bottom prices during a food shortage. Earlier, for 439 BCE, Livy
> made mention that he was killed for trying to make himself a king by
> that same means(4.13-16). But this reference would be to the later
> event, i. e. in 436 BCE. So like Genucius, Spurius Manlius wasn't
> murdered by Ahala until after he had left office. He was not a
> tribune at the time of his murder, ergo the sanctitas of a tribunus
> plebis had not been violated.
>
> Vale
> Piscinus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
> <lafaustus@...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > "This was the first instance where the
> > sanctitas of a Tribunus Plebis had been violated. "
> >
> >
> > Not really the first. Livius said once (again, I dont know where,
> but it as
> > Early-Middle republic) a tribune was found stabbed on the bed, in
> the eve of
> > some very tense day of political struggle with the patricians in
> the Forum,
> > so the tribunes remained home fearing by their lives.
> >
> > Vale,
> > L. Arminius Faustus
> >
> >
> > 2006/8/24, marcushoratius <mhoratius@...>:
> > >
> > > Salve Appi Cicero
> > >
> > > Earlier you wrote on the Comitia Centuriata list:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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