Salvete omnes!

Here are the answers to the fourth day's questions, along with the current rankings. I apologize for leaving D. Fabia Flavia off the third day's standings. Her score was duly recorded in the database where I keep track of the scores, but I forgot to add her to the e-mail!

Without further ado:

Question #7:
Concrete replaced marble as the primary building material shortly after its introduction. It allowed the Roman builders to "think outside the box" and create new styles of architecture.

a) What substance did the Romans find, when mixed with lime and water, made hydraulic cement?

Answer: Pozzolanic ash from Mt. Vesuvius.

Note: I did not count "volcanic ash" as a correct answer because not all ash is, so to speak, created equal--the chemical composition varies. It was Rome's great fortune that the local ash was high quality, silica-rich, pozzolana (named after Pozzuoli, near Naples, where the ash was found), well-suited for making hydraulic cement.

b) After Rome burned, Nero built a palace of enormous size that included a concrete dome--possibly the first built that was not part of a temple. Who were the palace's architect's and what was the palace named?

Answer: The architects were Celer and Severus and the name of Nero's massive palace was Domus Aurea--"Golden House."

Question #8:

When it comes to columns, Roman architects used five orders--three courtesy of Greece, but two of Roman invention. What were the names of the two added orders and, of all five, which order was the most popular in Rome?

The two Roman addtions were the Tuscan and Composite orders, and the most popular column used in Rome was the Corinthian.

Standings:

Lucius Cassius Cornutus -- 20 points
philip9789 -- 20 points
Caius Moravius Brutus -- 18 points
Gaius Marcius Crispus -- 17 points
L. Cassius Pontonius -- 12 points
Titus Vergilius Catulus -- 10 points
Q Cornelia Quadrata -- 8 points
Q. Iulius Celsus -- 7 points
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus -- 7 points
D. Fabia Flavia-- 6 points
Gaius Marius Trajanus -- 5 points
Marcus Vipsanius Pollio -- 4 points
C. Flavius Lepidus -- 2 points
Tiberius Marius Drusus -- 2 points
Gallio Velius Marsallas -- 1 point

Valete bene,
Artoria Marcella

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am new too...waiting my 90 days to final acceptance. Noma es Marcus
Vipsanius Pollio.
Teacher here too.....middle school. If you like military history check out
the lineage of Vipsanius.

Semper Fi

John Andersen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> A. Tullia Scholastica Ap. Claudio Druso quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> omnibus S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salvete, omnes!
>
>  
>
> I was informed by M. Iulius Severus that I have been granted
> provisional status. I would like to thank gens Livius and Claudius as well for
> allowing the adoption of the name.
>
> ATS: Gentes Livia and Claudia...but it is no longer necessary to ask
> permission of a paterfamilias UNLESS you take the same nomen AND cognomen as
> someone else. If you took the name of a Claudius Drusus, then you would have
> to have permission, not only of the pater/materfamilias, but also of everyone
> with this nomen-cognomen combination as you would become their close relative.
> Not sure how gens Livia comes in here...
>
>
> I have reading several Nova Roma lists since I applied and have found the
> topics often worthwhile and the data base of knowledge some have here to be a
> bit daunting so I mostly read.
>
> ATS: There is a lot to learn...one of the reasons why we have the
> probationary period, and why an even longer stay is required before being
> allowed to be an apparitor or magistrate.
>
>
> As a coin collector (emphasis on Roman) I am also looking to purchase both
> Nova Roma coins.
>
> ATS: I believe that there¹s a numismatics group around here, too...
>
> I am also a history buff with a major emphasis on Rome and I find the wide
> variety of specialized interests here to be very informative. From religion
> and law to Cuisine. The topic of Roman Nummus does not come up often it seems
> but that would be my emphasis though I find all things Roman interesting.
>
> ATS: There are several people here who are interested in numismatics, but
> most are not active on the ML. I believe that they have their own list.
>
>  
>
> I am also looking forward to attempting to use my Latin a bit. I have
> wheelock's and a Latin Dictionary, have studied the Vocabulary, correct
> pronunciation, sentence structure, etc... but I still dont feel confident so
> this list is a boon in that area.
>
> ATS: We have this Latin sodalitas...and Latin courses at the Academia
> Thules (free, for anyone who can figure out how to register and buys the
> book...). Some are taught by a world-class Latinist, Avitus, and the rest by
> yours truly, who¹s had only 15 years of Latin, and was pretty good at it, even
> with Avitus last year...
>
> Incidentally, Wheelock has a website with sound files for the vocabulary,
> and supplementary items such as flash cards available. The introductory
> course registration closes Monday, the first day of class, as the course is
> heavily front-loaded, and late entries will have too much to catch up on. The
> intermediate class registration is supposedly closed now, but I am willing to
> reopen it for a few more days for qualified students.
>
>  
>
> Valete
>
> Ap. Claudius Drusus
>

Vale, et valete,

A. Tullia Scholastica
classicist
praeceptrix linguae Latinae Academiae Thules





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>

A. Tullia Scholastica T. Flaminio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
voluntatis S.P.D.

Comments re nomenclature below.

>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A.
> Tullia Scholastica"
> <fororom@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica T. Flaminio quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae
>>> > > voluntatis S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Salvete omnes,
>>> > >
>>> > > In Cicero's De Natura Deorum Liber Primus, in the first sentence,
> the
>>> > > words "perdifficilis" and "perobscura" are used. I the meaning of
>>> > > difficilis and pbscura can be guessed easily, I cannot figure out
> the
>>> > > meaning of the prepostition "per." What does it change to the
> meaning
>>> > > of the words? Could anyone help me out? Gratias ago!
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Per is one of several prepositions which are frequently
> prefixed to
>>> > > assorted Latin words, typically, but not exclusively, verbs. In,
> cum (which
>>> > > often appears as con- or com-), ad (assimilated to an-, al-,
> etc.), a(b)/abs
>>> > > and per are among these. They tend to be intensives, that is,
> they strengthen
>>> > > the meaning of the word to which they are attached. Thus
> perdifficilis means
>>> > > extremely difficult, and perobscura means very dark, very obscure
> (depending
>>> > > on the context) and similar concepts. Briefly, when per or in is
> prefixed to
>>> > > an adjective, the former means very, and the latter means not.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > t. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
>>> > >
>>> > > ATS: Now that you bring this up...your nomen, Africanus
> Secundus, is that
>>> > > of a closed gens whose name does not comply with current naming
> practices in
>>> > > Nova Roma, or, for that matter, in Roma antiqua. Double names
> are impossible
>>> > > in such situations, and in addition, nomina, gens names, end in ­
> ius/-ia or in
>>> > > ­aeus/-aea, depending in part on the gender of the bearer. The
> great majority
>>> > > end in ­ius for males and ­ia for females. We cannot accept new
> citizens in
>>> > > the closed gentes, and recommend that any probationary citizens
> in particular
>>> > > change their nomina to those which comply with ancient and
> present NR
>>> > > practice. Other citizens are encouraged, but not required, to
> do this as
>>> > > well. Probationary citizens with such nomina will not be allowed
> to enter as
>>> > > full citizens unless and until their names (all three of them)
> comply.
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale, et valete,
>>> > >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica
>>> > > classicist
>>> > > rogatrix
>>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
> gratias tibi ago for the Latin. AS far my gens is concerned..... I
> have been a citizen of Nova Roma for almost two years now (if my
> memory doesn't fail me). The censors did not object me taking this
> gens nomen.
>
> ATS: Since then, we have done a great deal of research on nomenclature,
> and passed a law which regulates same more carefully. Gentes with double
> names are not historic, nor are those which end in something other than
> ­ia/-ius, or ­aea/-aeus (gens is a feminine noun, therefore the modification
> is feminine). Therefore Aelia Baetica, Africana Secunda, and other
> double-named gentes have been closed. The same has been done to other gentes
> with unhistoric nomina, and those who belong to them have been encouraged to
> change nomina. Indeed, most members of the gens Gladia changed to Lucretia,
> for gladia, though it does end in the requisite ­ius/-ia, is a noun, not an
> adjective, as nomina must be. Moreover, as a masculine noun, it cannot have a
> feminine form, and there are/were female members of this gens. All of our
> names must be capable of Latin declension by previous legislation (lex
> Cornelia et Maria), and must agree in gender with their bearers (ditto), so
> gladius cannot be used as a nomen.
>
> When I became a citizen, women were allowed three nomina, that is, three
> gens-names, and I took all three. In the interest of greater accuracy, I
> dropped the third, and changed the first to a proper praenomen. I would have
> preferred a different one, but there were too many by my preferred praenomen
> in my gens at the time, so I chose another. We do advise all citizens to
> adopt proper Roman names.
>
>
> However, you said it is now closed?
>
> ATS: So far as I know (haven¹t checked lately...) it is closed.
>
> Perhaps I should
> change, if possible. I believe our law gives any citizen the right to
> change his/her latin name. If the censors agree, I will pick a new
> gens. Do I have to refer this to them directly ?
>
> ATS: The policy now is that names may be changed only during the
> probationary period UNLESS one is adopted or changes to a more correct Roman
> name. That would apply if you chose a more proper gens name. Incidentally,
> Flaminius looks more like a nomen than a cognomen; if it¹s a historic gens
> name, you might be able to take that.
>
> t. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>

Vale et valete,

A. Tullia Scholastica



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>

A. Tullia Scholastica L. Arminio Fausto quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

[disclaimer: the reports of the ludi circenses are works of fiction,
meant to entertain, not offend anyone; they are based on the material
provided by the contestants, the calculations of the race outcomes provided
by C. Curius Saturninus, and the writer¹s knowledge of Roman practice in
these matters, laced with a lot of imagination. LAF is my friend...]

>
>
> Salvete,
>
> "Ego Est Nitricum, an absolutely meaningless moniker (what on earth is
> 'nitricum?' This isn't a Latin word, not to mention that 'I is' is not
> exactly anyone's idea of
> proper grammar), "
>
> Nitricum, nitrica, nitrici, nitricorum, nitricam, nitricas...
>
> ATS: That¹s a very interesting declension. I hope my students don¹t copy
> it, for it is quite creative, and the Romans weren¹t known for being creative
> in such matters. I can find no such word as nitricum, and it goes without
> saying that ego is the first person singular pronoun, whereas est is the third
> person singular verb, and the ordinarily-ironclad rules of grammar dictate
> that first person singular subjects take first person singular verbs, and that
> third person singular verbs should have third person singular subjects.
>
> Don´t people know "Aqua fortis"?
>
> ATS: Our Native Americans had problems with what they called
> firewater...if that¹s what you mean.
>
> Ops, It is a Middle Age discovery...
>
> "a chariot which belongs to the recently-returned Senator L.
> Arminius Faustus and is piloted by one Delenda Delegatii, whose name is
> almost as linguistically impaired as that of the rig itself. It seems that
> Senator Faustus has been out of contact with any Roman so long that he has
> forgotten his native tongue during his sojourn in the trackless wastes of
> some unheard-of country called Brasilia, "
>
> ATS: Delenda means she who must be destroyed, or things which must be
> destroyed. Delegatii looks like a nominative plural masculine or a genitive
> singular masculine, but might be a locative. The nearest word I can find
> seems to mean something like the holder of an escrow account, or a bondsman of
> some sort. This auriga¹s fondness for the whip doesn¹t seem to compute with
> that...
>
>
> Indeed... my absence from NR made my few latin disappear.
>
> ATS: We will instill it into your brain again...we are Borg...you will be
> assimilated...resistance is futile...
>
> "who wouldn't know a subjunctive from a supine or a gerundive from an
> infinitive."
>
> You underestimate the complexities of the last flower of Latium...
>
> ATS: Alas, I have seen too many homework and test papers to have such
> positive thoughts...
>
>
> Now I must not put my energies on learning latin, but on the latin dialect
> spoken on Galia.
>
> ATS: Gallia? Perhaps former tribunus Albucius can help...he joined us in
> Britannia this year. He will help with the ancestral tongue as well, the one
> which doesn¹t have a conditional mode or literary tenses...
>
> I´ll be there and in Germania Inferior in the ides of october. Ahahah... and
> I will visit ´nitricum´ ateliers...
>
> ATS: And what is this nitricum? There is natron (Greek; soda)...which is
> nitrum in Latin, soda, potash, alkali, nitre...you like that sort of thing?
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Romans


Starting late Sunday until late Friday I will be in Las Vegas, Nevada.

I will not have access to a computer and will respond to mail upon my return.
If any Nova Romans in Las Vegas would like to get together this week
I will be staying at the Golden Nugget. (702) 385-7111

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE QUIRITES !

The Roman Recipes contest jurry members :
- S.Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus - Dominus Sodalitas Coquorum,
- Pompeia Minucia Strabo - Consul,
- T. Iulius Sabinus - Curule Aedile,
taking in consideration the contest rules, decided :

The winner is...MERLINIA AMBROSIA ARTORI !!!...with the recipe :
----------------------------------------

Boiled Ostrich with Pulse Merlinia/ In Struthione Elixo

"My Redaction: Roman Days Special"

1 pound ground ostrich
1 tablespoon each minced garlic, sherry, wine vinegar, honey.
1 chopped date
¼ cup chopped leeks
1 teaspoon each loveage (or celery seed), parsley, mint
2 cups chicken stock flour and olive oil to make as much roux as
needed (about a tablespoon)

1. Remove ostrich from package, cut into 16 1 oz pieces, and roll
into balls.
2. Pour stock into small pot, add all the ingredients except ostrich
and roux
3. Bring to a simmer; add ostrich balls 4 at a time; wait until they
rise to the top (1-2 minutes), remove to a bowl.
4. When all balls are cooked and removed, add roux to thicken the
remaining liquid in the pot.
5. Serve balls alone, with sauce on the side, or mix them back in,
and serve on pulse Merlinia.

Pulse Merlinia 2-4 servings

Semolina

Water ½ +/- cup each a hard and a soft Italian cheese, such as
Italian Table Cheese, Asiago, or Parmesan, and mozzarella,
especially buffalo, cut or grated small. DO NOT USE CHEDDAR!

Pepper to taste

1. Bring water to boil, add pepper.
2. Stir well, adding semolina in a thin stream.
3. Stir slowly, until semolina starts making soft bubbles (like
lava). Add the cheeses.
4. Take the pulse off the heat, stir until the cheeses are well
mixed in.

Put on one main serving plate, or each person's dish, top with
boiled ostrich, or mushrooms if you're a vegetarian.

Can also pour into a mold, let it cool, and cut into slices to eat
in the hand.

Sources:

The Roman Cookery Book, a critical translation of The Art of Cooking
by Apicius.
(Trans. By Barbara Flower and Elisabeth Rosenbaum Harrap, London,
1974, ISBN 0-245-52268-9 pg 141, VI-I-1 )

Apicius – Cookery and Dining in Imperial Rome
(Edited and translated by JD Vehling Dover Publications 1977 ISBN 0-
486-23563-7 pg 141, recipe 210 )

----------------------------------------

Congratulations Merlinia Ambrosia. Congratulations not only for that
delicious recipe, but for all your activity to the NR meetings.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

SALVE ET SALVETE !

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:
Crassus' weight advantage and the technical improvements have
worked in his favor--at the finish line, Aprilis leads by a full
length, Equus Magnus is second, and Ego Est Nitricum has reaped the
fruit of its driver's cruelty, and will race no more today.

>
>Aedilis Sabinus jumps out of his seat in ecstasy, a wide smile on

his handsome face. Laughing, he embraces his neighbors in the
pulvinar. Young Crassus is no less delighted at his first win, and
that, too, one against an opponent whose tactics are not entirely
honorable, confined to equine management. Everyone in the pulvinar
is congratulating Aedilis Curulis Sabinus; the first victory of
one's son is a very special thing.>>>

Wonderful stories. As always from our Magistra Scholastica. Indeed
is the first victory of the young Crassus after two years of the
Ludi Circenses participation.
Take in consideration that the both dacian amphitheatres, Ulpia
Traiana and Porolissum are smallest one. He hasn't the proper
training facilities.

What I can say ? The two years ago little Crassus is now a fine
adolescent. The time fly. That's the reality. We are looking to our
childrens, and they are wonderful childrens. In the next seconds
they are adolescents, wonderful adolescents, and then, men and
women.
We are only simple actors and, in the same time, our own audience in
that intricate play of life. Only the play background is different.

Tonight there will be a fine feast at the domus Sabini...>>>

Yes, it is. The domus Sabini, composed by me, Arria Carina and the
young Crassus, salute you all.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

SALVETE !

My special thanks to optima Tullia Scholastica.
It was a great effort because in this part of the year, our
Magistra, has a lot to do. To be ready with the latin course at
Academia Thule, including the intermediate one, then to fulfil the
varied duties from a lot of groups where she is member as the
Censorial Cohors and the Sodalitas Musarum are.

With all of these, she is all the time in the first line. And not
anyhow ! With dignity and courage.
For that are my special thanks. And I posted this message to
honoured her work and her dedication in NR.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS
Curule Aedile.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:

>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae

voluntatis

> S.P.D.
>
> [We return to the Circus Maximus...]
>
>
> Well, while the track attendants were cleaning up the kindling

from

> Erebus¹ collisions with Incitatus and the spina, I took the

opportunity to

> get a fine lunch of psoai with garlic sauce and mushrooms--safe
> mushrooms--prepared by my friend C. Livia, the visiting

propraetrix of

> Britannia, who brought her own food with her--one can never be too

careful

> when one holds such positions. The fiery garlic sauce--it had

some odd

> name sounding like 'aioli'--was a present from former tribune P.

Memmius

> Albucius, and everything was absolutely delectable--the vendors

can't come

> close to matching the quality found in any proper Roman household,

to say

> nothing of that expected in the home of a provincial governor.
>
> The track looks clean now; the attendants have gone to inform

the

> charioteers that all is ready. The doors swing open, and the next

three

> chariots appear. First is the now-feared Ego Est Nitricum,

followed by

> Aprilis; Equus Magnus brings up the rear. Thus we have

respectively

> Russata, Russata, and Veneta represented in this race. The horses

feel the

> excitement; they prance eagerly to the carceres under their

drivers'

> watchful eyes. First to reach the gate and draw his lot is Delenda
> Delegatii of Russata's Ego Est Nitricum; as befits one so badly

behaved, he

> draws Scorpio. Next is Crassus, who gets Aries, and Orionis Draco

takes

> Leo. The attendants are having a hard time getting the Ego Est

Nitricum

> team into the gate; the horses are snapping and kicking at

anything in sight

> that moves. Finally the attendants manage to haul the

recalcitrant horses

> into the carceres; they signal Consul Modianus, who rises, waves

the mappa

> (no longer gleaming white, but still visible), and waits for

silence before

> dropping it. Mappa consulis manu decidit, et currus missi sunt!
> They're saving the best 'til last, however; there's a lot of

ground to cover

> in this race, and the lucky ones will go on to the finals, so it

is by no

> means wise to take the early, or even the middle, laps at maximum

speed.

> The charioteers guide their rigs around the track at a moderate

pace, led by

> Ego Est Nitricum. Crassus and Orionis Draco have no compelling

desire to

> taste Delenda Delegatii's lash, so they keep well away from him

for now--and

> behind him is considerably safer than in front of him, or beside

him...The

> dolphin drops, then drops again; they're heading into the third

lap, but are

> still cautious, still conserving the horses' strength. They're a

little

> quicker now, however, and a little more daring; Equus Magnus is

closing with

> Ego Est Nitricum, and Aprilis is also making a move in that

direction.

> Coming into the fourth lap, Equus Magnus pours on the speed in the
> straightaways, and manages to pass Ego Est Nitricum while Delenda

Delegatii

> was preoccupied with managing an unruly horse; Aprilis does the

same, but

> Crassus overtook Delenda just as his attention was once again

focused on the

> other chariots. The whip comes out--but before it gets anywhere

near

> Crassus, it has been deftly snatched from Delenda Delegatii's

hand. Delenda

> Delegatii curses in some barbaric tongue...and Aedilis Curulis

Sabinus

> smiles broadly. Ego Est Nitricum is now in last place, and

Delenda's fury

> flashes from his dark eyes. Without the whip, he cannot control

the others;

> worse, his other whip seems to have disappeared, so he can't

manage the

> horses, either. He lashes them with their reins, but they seem

rather

> disinclined to cooperate. They're rounding the curve, heading

into the

> fifth lap. Equus Magnus leads, though it slows on the curves, and

Aprilis

> is close behind. Ego Est Nitricum is closing fast, but only

because the

> horses are trained well enough that they prefer to see an empty

track before

> them; without the whip, Delenda Delegatii can't enforce his will

on them.

> All have speeded up now; there's not much time left in this race,

and only

> two of the three will go on to the finals. Equus Magnus is really

laying it

> on now during the straightaways, and is well ahead of the others.

T.

> Licinius Crassus, its owner, lets a self-satisfied smile play over

his lips,

> while concern shows on Aedilis Sabinus' face, and Senator Faustus

looks

> positively alarmed. Even wiping out an Albata chariot and the

fortuitous

> absence of any Praesina representative don't seem to have helped

ensure

> victory...there must be a way to win...there MUST...
>
> The dolphin drops, signaling the end of the fifth lap and the

beginning

> of the sixth. Delenda Delegatii snaps the reins hard over the

horses'

> backs, and they, startled, take off. He's gaining ground, and

soon passes

> Aprilis. As he overtakes Crassus, he glares at the lad who

deprived him of

> his whip, and spits some curses at him. He moves ahead, and

passes Equus

> Magnus. NOW he's where he wants to be...they're coming up on the

turn, and

> all take it pretty tightly. They are approaching the seventh and

deciding

> lap, and all three chariots are flying like the wind. Ego Est

Nitricum is

> falling back, however, and Aprilis is pulling ahead. The new

improvements

> in the Aprilis chariot coupled with the superiority of the new

horse,

> Ohlinus, seem to be doing their job. Aprilis has now left both

Ego Est

> Nitricum and Equus Magnus behind as the former's horses have

slacked their

> pace in exhaustion. Orionis Draco can't seem to get much more out

of his

> horses, either, but they are maintaining a good clip. Crassus'

weight

> advantage and the technical improvements have worked in his favor--

at the

> finish line, Aprilis leads by a full length, Equus Magnus is

second, and Ego

> Est Nitricum has reaped the fruit of its driver's cruelty, and

will race no

> more today.
>
> Aedilis Sabinus jumps out of his seat in ecstasy, a wide smile

on his

> handsome face. Laughing, he embraces his neighbors in the

pulvinar. Young

> Crassus is no less delighted at his first win, and that, too, one

against an

> opponent whose tactics are not entirely honorable, confined to

equine

> management. Everyone in the pulvinar is congratulating Aedilis

Curulis

> Sabinus; the first victory of one's son is a very special thing.

Consul Po

> is also heaving a sigh of relief that this race brought no further

accidents

> and injuries, especially since a magistrate's son was involved.

Overall,

> the mood in the pulvinar is joyful, if a bit restrained in the

censorial

> quarter. Tonight there will be a fine feast at the domus Sabini...
>
> The spectators are moving about, stretching, getting some food

and

> beverages, and yes, heading for the latrinae. Praesina partisans

are

> sticking around only because they want to see who DOES win, not

because they

> have anyone to back; similarly, the Albata fans are more than

disappointed

> as one of only two entries has been sabotaged, and the other,

whether as a

> result of deliberate action or not, has been damaged in a

collision. It's

> chances don't look good.
>
> Once again, the charioteers retire to rest and check their

equipment;

> the wainwrights make some quick repairs to the somewhat-damaged

Incitatus.

> Everything hinges on the next race; the respite is welcome for

both men and

> beasts, and so, too are some light refreshments and a quick wash

while the

> chariots are being inspected again. Soon four chariots and

sixteen horses

> will contend for the ultimate prize.
>
> Until then,
>
> Valete. This has been A. Tullia Scholastica reporting from

the Circus

> Maximus.
>

SALVETE QUIRITES !

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Tita Artoria Marcella"
<icehunter@...> wrote:

> Standings:
>
> Lucius Cassius Cornutus -- 20 points
> philip9789 -- 20 points
> Caius Moravius Brutus -- 18 points
> Gaius Marcius Crispus -- 17 points
> L. Cassius Pontonius -- 12 points
> Titus Vergilius Catulus -- 10 points
> Q Cornelia Quadrata -- 8 points
> Q. Iulius Celsus -- 7 points
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus -- 7 points
> D. Fabia Flavia-- 6 points
> Gaius Marius Trajanus -- 5 points
> Marcus Vipsanius Pollio -- 4 points
> C. Flavius Lepidus -- 2 points
> Tiberius Marius Drusus -- 2 points
> Gallio Velius Marsallas -- 1 point >>>

Great contest and great participants. The fight is not to the end.
The last two questions represent 5 points ! Enough to generate major
changes.
My thanks to participants. Their participation honoured the
organizer work. In this case Artoria Marcella.( last year she was
the winner of the contests )


VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

Salvete omnes!

Only two questions remain, and they are not about Roma Antiqua, but Nova Roma! We have a history of our own to explore!

http://www.crystalwebvision.com/aedil/certamen6f.htm

Good luck!

Valete optime,
Artoria Marcella

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

A. Tullia Scholastica T. Iulio Sabino quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

>
>
>
> SALVE ET SALVETE !
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A.
> Tullia Scholastica"
> <fororom@...> wrote:
> Crassus' weight advantage and the technical improvements have
> worked in his favor--at the finish line, Aprilis leads by a full
> length, Equus Magnus is second, and Ego Est Nitricum has reaped the
> fruit of its driver's cruelty, and will race no more today.
>> >
>> >Aedilis Sabinus jumps out of his seat in ecstasy, a wide smile on
> his handsome face. Laughing, he embraces his neighbors in the
> pulvinar. Young Crassus is no less delighted at his first win, and
> that, too, one against an opponent whose tactics are not entirely
> honorable, confined to equine management. Everyone in the pulvinar
> is congratulating Aedilis Curulis Sabinus; the first victory of
> one's son is a very special thing.>>>
>
> Wonderful stories. As always from our Magistra Scholastica.
>
> ATS: Thank you! I¹m glad you liked them.
>
> Indeed
> is the first victory of the young Crassus after two years of the
> Ludi Circenses participation.
> Take in consideration that the both dacian amphitheatres, Ulpia
> Traiana and Porolissum are smallest one. He hasn't the proper
> training facilities.
>
> ATS: Oh, dear! No wonder it has taken him so long...
>
> What I can say ? The two years ago little Crassus is now a fine
> adolescent.
>
> ATS: He looked about ten in those pictures you sent me subsequently...
>
>
> The time fly. That's the reality. We are looking to our
> childrens, and they are wonderful childrens. In the next seconds
> they are adolescents, wonderful adolescents,
>
> ATS: On what planet is it that adolescents are wonderful? The word means
> beginning to become smelly, after all...
>
> and then, men and
> women.
> We are only simple actors and, in the same time, our own audience in
> that intricate play of life. Only the play background is different.
>
> Tonight there will be a fine feast at the domus Sabini...>>>
>
> Yes, it is. The domus Sabini, composed by me, Arria Carina and the
> young Crassus, salute you all.
>
> ATS: You must tell me what Dacian delicacies you had...
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> A. Tullia Scholastica iterum T. Iulio Sabino quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> omnibus S.P.D.
>
>
>
> SALVETE !
>
> My special thanks to optima Tullia Scholastica.
>
> ATS: You are welcome!
>
> It was a great effort because in this part of the year, our
> Magistra, has a lot to do. To be ready with the latin course at
> Academia Thule, including the intermediate one, then to fulfil the
> varied duties from a lot of groups where she is member as the
> Censorial Cohors and the Sodalitas Musarum are.
>
>
> ATS: Yes, I must confess that these ludi arrived at a rather inconvenient
> time for me. The new AT system came online with no time to spare, and I am
> the first teacher to use it, so neither I nor the prospective students is sure
> of how to use it. Several have contacted me in private asking for assistance
> with registration. Nonetheless, there are 14 students already registered for
> the introductory class, and at least two for the intermediate one, which
> requires a second password from me. Enough materials are onsite now to keep
> the intermediate class busy for a couple of weeks, though I must correct a
> couple of typos in their lesson, and much of the material for the introductory
> class¹ first week is also onsite now, though everything from last year has to
> be reconfigured for this system. The first week of the introductory class is
> very heavy with information, but most of it does not have to be digested at
> once, and only the text-based lesson itself has written homework. It may look
> daunting at first, but it will resolve itself, as the big picture I give will
> be understood pixel by pixel later on. Better that than surprise someone with
> the unmitigated joys of Latin inflections...eventually, though, one hardly
> thinks about it. Really. It gets absorbed...
>
> On top of this, I had to set up the Musarum election just before starting
> the first class...and yes, I¹m in the censorial cohors, which blocked all new
> applications during August, so there was a huge backlog, plus I¹m also in both
> praetorian cohortes, though one is unofficial...and I moderate about a dozen
> lists...answer questions about Latin...
>
> With all of these, she is all the time in the first line. And not
> anyhow ! With dignity and courage.
>
> ATS: Thank you again!
>
> For that are my special thanks. And I posted this message to
> honoured her work and her dedication in NR.
>
> ATS: Civis Romana sum...
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
> Curule Aedile.
>
>
> Vale, et valete,
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica
>
>

<ludi report snipped>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

Iulius Sabinus scripsit:

>Their participation honoured the
>organizer work.

The two major improvents to the certamen during the Ludi Romani this year are giving contestants 48 hours to research the answers and the new webpages, complete with graphics. Both innovations come from Iulius Sabinus. He deserves much of the credit if the certamen is seen as a success.

Valete bene,
Artoria Marcella






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Lucretius Agricola A Apollonio Cordo sal.

I think you should add this to the evidence that is collected on the
wiki page for SPQR. I don't remember the exact title, and it may
actually be on the talk page.

optime vale!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:

>
> A. Apollonius omnibus sal.
>
> Forgive me for reviving a topic from early summer. We were talking

about whether in Latin a verb in the singular could be used with more
than one subject, and we discussed the inscription on the temple of
Saturn, "Senatus populusque Romanus incendio consumptum restituit".

>
> Well, I was reminded of that discussion earlier today when I was

looking over Cicero de oratore and saw (1.5.19) "quorum gloria nobis
et dignitas cara est", which is another example of the same thing
("gloria" and "dignitas" being the subjects of "est").

>
> And people say we only talk politics... ;)
>

Is there going to be a Sermo Latinus III class? I didn't see it when I
logged into the Academia web site, and I need to know whether I need
to hurry up to get required books. Thanks.

On 9/14/06, A. Tullia Scholastica <fororom@...> wrote:
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis,
> praesertim Latinistis futuris, S.P.D.
>
> This is for the Academia Latin students: registration for intermediate
> traditional (Wheelock) Latin (grammatica Latina II) will close on the 15th.
> Students wishing to take this course MUST fulfill a prerequisite, and MUST
> write to me in order to get a second password called an enrollment key.
> Those who have completed Wheelock Latin I successfully will automatically
> get this, as will those who I know have passed Assimil I or Assimil I and
> II, but you MUST write to me to get this.
>
> ALL of Avitus¹ students MUST follow a similar procedure as he requires
> the purchase of the text and tapes prior to the beginning of the course.
> He has not, however, set this as he has been away, and the course starts
> much later.
>
> Students for introductory Wheelock Latin (Grammatica Latina I,
> traditional method) have no prerequisite other than the purchase of the text
> and a willingness to learn...which requires work. No enrollment key is
> needed. However, registration will close on the 18th, and the first week
> has several messages, including long preliminary lessons and a book lesson,
> so please hie yourselves over to the AT and get signed up‹and let me know
> who you are.
>
> There is a group of waiting students, including some I would not expect,
> but there doesn¹t seem to be any way of telling who is planning on taking
> what course. I would appreciate it if those planning on taking one of the
> Wheelock courses would let me know...there is this useful system on the
> website, which allows citizens to mail one another. I do know of two
> students for the intermediate class, but if you are planning on taking this,
> PLEASE let me know. The only way I can access my own courses at present is
> to pretend that I am enrolling as a student, so some glitches have to be
> ironed out...and I may have to set up a Yahoo group of my own pro tem until
> my materials are up on the site, and I can access my classes. I am hoping
> for some assistance on this from the frozen North, but unless and until it
> comes, temporary measures may be necessary.
>
> Valete,
>
> ATS

--
Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@...>
It's not the verbing that weirds language, it's the renounification.

explorator 9.20-21 July 16, 2006

Explorator is Copyright (c) 2006 David Meadows. Feel free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals, students,
teachers, etc., but please include this copyright notice. These
links are not to be posted to any website by any means (whether
by direct posting or snagging from a usenet group or some other
email source) without my express written permission. I think it
is only right that I be made aware of public fora which are
making use of content gathered in Explorator. Thanks!

SNIP

ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME (AND CLASSICS)

A late Roman villa from Laodiceia:

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=141655<http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=141655>

This one wouldn't work for me a couple weeks ago, but it does
now ... an article in arabic (with photos) on the discovery
of a Roman necropolis in Beirut:

http://www.annaharonline.com/htd/BEAA060831.HTM<http://www.annaharonline.com/htd/BEAA060831.HTM>

Remains of a Roman bath house from Kent:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1871816,00.html<http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1871816,00.html>

A possible Roman villa site in Bottisham:

http://tinyurl.com/n8xlj<http://tinyurl.com/n8xlj> (CEN)

Construction workers have uncovered a Roman village in
the heart of Bonn:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2143358,00.html<http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2143358,00.html>

More Roman relics from India ... this time from Elephanta
Island:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1053100<http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1053100>

Another Thracian tomb find in Bulgaria:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=69538<http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=69538>

Some Roman monuments apparently were damaged during the recent
events in Lebanon:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1874509,00.html<http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1874509,00.html>

A Roman road in MidSussex is threatened by development:

http://tinyurl.com/oq8b2<http://tinyurl.com/oq8b2> (MidSussex News)

Interesting item on 'deadly' features of the temple of Apollo
at Hierapolis:

http://tinyurl.com/hl8m3<http://tinyurl.com/hl8m3> (USA Today)

Assorted academics are seeking protection for Roman (and other)
artifacts from Musiris:

http://www.keralaonline.com/newspages/display.php?newsid=2347<http://www.keralaonline.com/newspages/display.php?newsid=2347>

Another Rome-as-U.S. piece, this time in the guise of a
television review:

http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article1604084.ece<http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article1604084.ece>

Another Israel-as-Carthage piece:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/762920.html<http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/762920.html>

Middle school mythology fun/learning:

http://www.journalpilot.com/articles/2006/09/13/news/news3.txt<http://wwwjournalpilot.com/articles/2006/09/13/news/news3.txt>

Very good piece on why students take Latin:

http://tinyurl.com/ozvka<http://tinyurl.com/ozvka> (GT)

Oliver Stone has done yet another cut of Alexander:

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news06/060911n.php<http://www.darkhorizons.com/news06/060911n.php>

A live version of Ben Hur:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,1870304,00.html<http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,1870304,00.html>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060911/stage_nm/france_benhur_dc_2<http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060911/stage_nm/france_benhur_dc_2>

A woman received what looks like a Bar Kokhba denarius as part
of her change during a recent shopping expedition:

http://www.wltx.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=41584<http://www.wltx.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=41584>

In case you haven't read about the EDUCE project:

http://www.stoa.org/educe/<http://www.stoa.org/educe/>

Greek astronomers have appealed the the astronomical community
to keep the universe Greek:

http://tinyurl.com/owuc5<http://tinyurl.com/owuc5> (Australian)

Review (by Lindsay Davis) of an upcoming docudrama about
Rome:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14934-2354065,00.html<http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14934-2354065,00.html>

Review of Robert Harris, *Imperium*:

http://tinyurl.com/g6tso<http://tinyurl.com/g6tso> (Newsday)

Review of a jazzy interpretation of Ovid's Metamorphoses:

http://tinyurl.com/z3urp<http://tinyurl.com/z3urp> (BG)

Recent reviews from BMCR:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/recent.html<http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/recent.html>

Recent reviews from Scholia:

http://www.classics.und.ac.za/reviews/2006.htm<http://www.classics.und.acza/reviews/2006.htm>

Visit our blog:

http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism<http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---

>
> Munera Gladiatoria - The Finals !
> Presented by M.Cassius Philippus :
>
>
>
>
>
> Ave Reccanelle et Quiritibus!

snip...

>
>
> "The Consul is consoling Reccanellus as best as she can."

There, there now Reccanelle...I'm sorry about Vir, again and again.
Pleazze start speaking to me. I truly 'am' sorry...really, it was
*all* a dreadful accident.

I really didn't intend to signal for his death....no,nooooo.

It was very hot (remember the awnings had to be used?), and I was,
well, using my thumb to gesture to some naughty political opponents,
and ....because of the sweat on my face, the old thumb kind
of 'slipped' downward and ended up poised toward my throat...before
you know it, Vir was toast.

I know how you feel.

I do, I do!

I remember at the Ludi last year that dreadful homosapien beast of
Titus Iulius Sabinus mercilessly slew my Ajax....Ewwwwehhh. I
didn't speak to Sabine for atleast 72 hours over that one! Well,
Ajax has a nice little town named after him in my provincia...Ajax,
Ontario, yes :>



And I know you can't stand wearing white, because its too boring,
and yet you wore that white toga to the games and sat with me....you
were carrying all those medical supplies I was needing for injuries
throughout these spectacles...as Scholastica has been describing to
the people, and since you are doing medical service of
sorts....white would be the colour to wear now wouldn't it?...what a
sacrifice Reccanelle really.

*That's* why you were in white.

I'm sure the infirm appreciate your efforts, although you are
probably not going to speak to me for some time to come.

(sob, sob...)

In addition, you slave day in and day out, counting the republic's
revenues, and you also helped me itemize and total medical invoices
for services rendered (no socialized medicine here folks,
sorry!)....... and this is the thanks you get!

Well, I say again dearest Quaestor et Amicus, it was *all* a
series of unfortunate events, a mistake...... a rather costly 'slip
of the thumb'....really.

Po



snip

>
>
>
> MUNERA GLADIATORIA LUDI FINALS:
>
>
>
> 1. Murmillo Naois Ansgar vs Retiarius Vir : Murmillo Naois Ansgar

is

> the winner.
>
> 2. Murmillo Aequoreus vs Secutor Ktistai : Murmillo Aequoreus is

the

> winner.
>
> And the great final:
>
> Murmillo Naois Ansgar vs Murmillo Aequoreus : Murmillo Aequoreus

is

> the winner.
>
> VALETE !
>

---Salve Praetor:


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Romans
>
>
> Starting late Sunday until late Friday I will be in Las Vegas,

Nevada.

Pompeia: Quit bragging :>

>
> I will not have access to a computer and will respond to mail upon

my return.


If any Nova Romans in Las Vegas would like to get together this week

> I will be staying at the Golden Nugget. (702) 385-7111

Pompeia: I've not had the pleasure of visiting Vegas, but I
understand that people end up spending little time in their hotel
rooms, so it might be a challenge to get ahold of you, well
intentioned as your invite is.

Have a good time and don't take any wooden denarii.

>
> Vale

Po

>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

A. Apollonius M. Lucretio sal.

Hmm... I'm not sure that it really adds anything to our understanding of the phrase "senatus populusque Romanus", since that phrase doesn't appear in the Cicero. It's really just about the circumstances in which singular verbs are used with plural subjects.

Hello Novaromas,

Is there any novaromas from Africa?? Please let me know

. "Promoting Reason,science and Compassion"
Remember if it is not about Respect, Justice, Understanding, and
Peacefulness; it is not worth talking about.
Be attentive. Be intelligent. Be reasonable. Be responsible. Be in Love. And, if necessary, change. Mr.Micheal Mpagi Kirumira
Promoter for WTA-UGANDA CHAPTER
P.O.Box 72244,
Clock tower station
Kampala Uganda
East Africa









__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

SALVETE QUIRITES !

Ludi Romani Pugilatio.
by Iulius Sabinus.
english translation : Iulius Probus.

------------------------------------

-Should I take my "palla"? Said Laetitia from somewhere in the back.
-Suit yourself said indifferently Spurius, as usually not caring
about the others problems, fitting once again his old leather belt.
For one moment he was thinking about buying a new one but the miser
inside him contracted at the thought that he must throw away some
money for that. –And tell to those slaves to hurry up…!
-In a minute! Just to fix my hair.
Spurius knew what that means in time, he made a short sign to the
slave near him, and this one disappeared among the curtains. Spurius
got himself outside and went straight to the water clock, his latest
acquisition, bought with great financial efforts.
He was excited watching the clock, and he thought that he must
discuss with the Greek stone mason to carve it in the funeral stone,
like somewhere he already saw on the Via Appia. Let the people know
who is him, Spurius, the owner of the "Taberna Peregrinus" from
the "Forum Boarium", down on the Tiber shore; where the
best "rosatum" was served.
-Are you ready? Spurius shouted with authority to the houseÂ…And pay
attention that it will be raining soon, he continued with an
acknowledged voice, looking to the clouded sky. He put his hand on
the bag strapped by the belt, and he felt trough the slim leather,
the coins prepared for the today entertainment.
Laetitia appeared accompanied by the younger "vestiplica" that was
caring the "palla". With her sophisticated dressed hair, wearing a
lot of jewels, Laetitia seemed to Spurius a foreign idol.
He didn't love her anymore, the time for walking on the "Clivus
Capitolinus" and for the stolen kisses under the many "portices"
passed by.
They decided to walk even if that was an adventure. Up to Via Nova
they must walk through that "itinera" and "acte" filled with
merchants showing the goods in the open street making the traffic
almost impossible. Not saying a word about the risk of falling
something right in the head, from one of the "insulae" superior
floor.
That was exactly what it happened. They didn't walk a mile on the
street, when the noise made his appearance. They had just the time
to strafe sideway and the dirty water splashed in the ground.
-You assholes barbarians! Roared Spurius looking up the top of the
buildings where the light struggled his way out.
At the end the street was blocked. Some slaves are straining
themselves to unload from a chariot a piece of marble from Liguria.
At last the "Capitolium" was straight into their faces.
Spurius took a peek in left to the Jupiter Temple and hurry up, like
he was defending by the lightings that could came from there to
punish him for the two nights ago penalty, when he cheated his wife
with the new Postumus' female slave. Even now he could feel her
young and hot body in his arms. He felt a worm tickling feeling down
into his guts and he said with a nervous voice:
-Came on now! We'll find bad looking places like the last time.
The leander aroma from the Palatine rolls down on the street.
Spurius looked in his right to the Marcellus' Theatre and the
gardens surrounding it. They walked on their left side near the
wooden palisade of the arena, and went straight ahead to the
entrance, where flock after flock, the crowd disappeared in the
Circus Maximus.
This year the aediles wasn't cheep.
In the right side chariots filled with amphoras awaited to be
unloaded. Near them top naked slaves were looking insolently the
passers by.
......................
-Right, Left, Right...... a Praetorian shouted in a hoarse way,
accompanied by two young soldiers with a sturdy breath to look more
dangerous that they were in fact. The crowds almost step on one
another, and Spurius was pushed over one of the soldiers. This one
pushed him back.
-On the Cerberus Scrotum.... Spurius wanted to curse, but he stoped
instantly when he saw the praetorian scowling look.
In the stands they turned in the right side.
-I told you to hurry up, said Spurius to Laetitia. It's late and the
stands are already full, he said in a low profile voice only for
himself.
He made room and at one moment he stopped checked out the arena, and
said:
-We'll stay here. It's a good view. Reserve a seat for Postumus,
too. He said he'll come.
He looked around and wonder himself of such numerous people were
present in the arena.
Great is the garden of the Gods and loved is Rome by Those, if they
permitted to gather all the people here from all the corners of the
world. Young men and girls accompanied by the slaves, pedlars with
delicious goods, patricians and plebeians, were moving around in
this huge forward-backward.
The arena was filling, the crowd becoming impatient and starting to
hit the wooden floor with their feet. As usually the magistrates
were late. At last the trumpets sounded the appearance of the
senators and magistrates, in the flowered stand.
The crowds acclaimed them same time with cursing.
Up a small "roestra" a dumpy guy was trying to settle the silence
waving his hands desperately.
-People of Rome! People of Rome! In the eleventh day of the Ludi the
honorable aediles offer you athletic games. Fearless boxers from
Africa and Greece will perform into the arena to prove their skills
and defend their life.
In that moment Postumus arrived accompanied by his new and beautiful
Niobe, the female slave. Postumus set down near Laetitia, and Niobe
a little bit lower with the slaves.
Spurius couldn't help not looking to the Niobe's gorgeous naked
shoulders. A strange emotion covered him. His feelings for Niobe
took control over him and he almost couldn't hear the arena
introduction:
-From the far AfricaÂ…undefeated in the ring ...Negrus ... Jugurta
the powerful ... victorious ... both ...
-From Greece, the Mother of the athletics games ... the fearless
Ambrocio ... Iphides ... sarmatian mines ... trained at ...
And the crowd was cheering and shouting and Spurius in the same time
was also shouting, but his eyes were looking only at Niobe. He took
a fast look at the boxers and frightened himself watching their
scars. Their faces and bodies carried on the iron "cesti" marks.
Their faces were chopped, their noses smashed, and their ears were
torn away.
-First match! Negrus vs. Ambrocio! Spurius heard like in a dream the
voice of the announcer.
The fight begins.
The hits are flowing all around in the ring. The boxers were shacked
but still standing while their blood was pouring on their bodies.
The sound of the crowd is present with every hit, and the stands are
vibrating in the same rhythm with the quick foot steps of the
fighters. With a hit very well aimed the African send Ambrocio down.
This one's blood starts to spring from his mouth and ears.
The crowd is delirious, and Negrus raises his arms above his head as
a sign of victory.
Spurius looks with his eyebrows crossed. His wish was the winning of
the Greek.
The young "curatores aranei" cleans up the sand in the ring. The
crowd became heavily silent.
Postumus was whispering something in the Laetitia's ear and this one
was laughing.
Hmm! Too intimate! Â… Spurius says for himself and only in his mind.
In the ring was introduced a tall brawny African. His hands hanged
heavily near the body because of the gloves full of iron.
Behind him appeared a small Greek. This one was welcomed with curses.
The fight begins.
The two fighters are rolling around each other like two predators.
The hits start and stop in the blocks. Iphides the Greek is moving
very fast. In a short time Jugurtha start to hit the air. The crowd
laughs, but this is the sign that the people change the preferences
in accordance with the situation.
Slowly the Greek turned the fight in a circus. He only rolls around
the African without hitting. In short time Jugurtha feels dizzy. A
throng of hits falls over him. The lead from the Iphides' gloves
bites the flesh. Jugurtha falls on his knees. Iphides read the
approval in the audience's eyes and with a short but strong hit
sends Jugurtha down on the ground. For a moment it was silence, but
instantly the crowd is begining to shout. Iphides is the hero of the
day.
Postumus bought from a merchant some cakes with honey and offered a
few to Spurius and Laetitia.
Spurius bought another one and offered it to Niobe.
Laetitia looked at him disapproving his move.
The ring is now clean for the final fight.
Spurius was already thinking about his "prandium" and the hours that
he'll be spending at the thermae.
-Postumus should we play a game today at the thermae?
-Of course. How much is the bet?
-Ten sesterces, tries Spurius to be generous ... And ten on
Iphides ... say again without thinking, and in the next moment he
shows his regrets about his words.
-I'm in! ... A voice from behind said.
The fight starts with nothing spectacular.
The fighters are moving heavily. They look tired, or this can be a
part of their tactics.
-You'll have a lot of customers at the Tavern after the games,
Postumus said to Spurius, from behind Laetitia.
Suddenly the fighters became aggressive.
Iphides receive a powerful hit. Spurius shakes like he's the one who
get it. Iphides shakes dizzy too. Both fighters throw themselves to
one another with their fists ahead. Iphide strafes quickly and push
Negrus who falls in the ring. Negrus tries to get up and turn
himself not knowing that Iphides' fist is already in his way for a
hit.
The hit was heavy and very bad right in the Negrus' head. It's
effect was disastrous.
Negrus spits his teeth and falls down terminated.
Iphides is the winner.
Suddenly Spurius wanted to embrace Niobe. He almost did but he
stopped right in time.
Frightened he grabs a piece of linen and wipes his forehead. Excited
he drops the piece of linen down. He bows to take it and he remains
hard as a rock. He sees how the Postumus ` hand hold the Laetitia's
one. Like he received a hit in the head from Iphides the winner,
Spurius falls down and faints.
From his temple from Capitolium, Jupiter is smiling enigmatically.

---------------------------

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

Salvete omenes!

We have a leader going into the final stretch, but will the lead last? Here are today's answers and rankings:
Question #9:

Who in Rome (full Roman name) was referred to as the "Cicero of physicians" and what medical book did he write?

Answer: Aulus Cornelius Celsus, author of De Medicina.

Question #10:

Occasionally, due to later construction, a Roman tomb would become "lost" to history.

a) Which former slave's tomb was lost (full Roman name)?

Answer: Marcus Vergilius
Eurysaces, a baker. His tomb was almost completely concealed by the towers Emperor Honorius built when he modified the Porta Praenestina.. It was uncovered again in 1833.

b) And, dying shortly after a much lauded performance during the Capitoline Games, what young Roman poet was laid to rest in a tomb "discovered" in 1871?

Answer: Quintus Sulpicius Maximus. His tomb was embedded inside of the eastern tower of the Porta Salaria, part of the Aurelian Wall.

The standings:

philip9789 -- 23 points
Lucius Cassius Cornutus -- 22 points
Caius Moravius Brutus -- 21 points
Gaius Marcius Crispus -- 21 points
L. Cassius Pontonius -- 12 points
Titus Vergilius Catulus -- 10 points
Q Cornelia Quadrata -- 9 points
Q. Iulius Celsus -- 7 points
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus -- 7 points
D. Fabia Flavia-- 6 points
Marcus Vipsanius Pollio -- 6 points
Gaius Marius Trajanus -- 5 points
Gaia Iulia -- 3 points
C. Flavius Lepidus -- 2 points
Tiberius Marius Drusus -- 2 points
Gallio Velius Marsallas -- 1 point

Valete bene,
Artoria Marcella


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced with an
Islamic jihad?

--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Antoni

There cannot be a definitive answer to that question. Too many
variables are involved, namely:

a) The will of the Senate
b) The quality of the Consuls' military abilities
c) Economic climate
d) Exisiting military commitments
e) Location of the jihad and its extent

This isn't a comprehensive list by any means. Rome could have tried
to crush it, ignore it, divert it, negotiate it away or bribe it away.

I am sure many fondly imagine that the automatic reaction would have
been to crush it and exterminate every last one of the foe, however I
don't think we can say that would have been a constant, but rather a
possible option - one of many.

Vale
Caesar


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
<marsvigilia@...> wrote:

>
> What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced

with an

> Islamic jihad?
>
> --
> >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> Tony Dah m
>
> Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I understand the speculative nature of the question. But as current
policies do not appear to be trending as well as one might hope, I merely
wondered what the Roman reaction might have been, or if they would even have
prevailed. The Romans certainly did not crush all their enemies, but they
did manage the trick a few times.

On 9/18/06, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Antoni
>
> There cannot be a definitive answer to that question. Too many
> variables are involved, namely:
>
> a) The will of the Senate
> b) The quality of the Consuls' military abilities
> c) Economic climate
> d) Exisiting military commitments
> e) Location of the jihad and its extent
>
> This isn't a comprehensive list by any means. Rome could have tried
> to crush it, ignore it, divert it, negotiate it away or bribe it away.
>
> I am sure many fondly imagine that the automatic reaction would have
> been to crush it and exterminate every last one of the foe, however I
> don't think we can say that would have been a constant, but rather a
> possible option - one of many.
>
> Vale
> Caesar
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
> <marsvigilia@...> wrote:
> >
> > What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced
> with an
> > Islamic jihad?
> >
> > --
> > >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> > Tony Dah m
> >
> > Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> > Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
<marsvigilia@...> wrote:

>
> What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced

with an

> Islamic jihad?
>
> --
> >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> Tony Dah m
>
> Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Domine Antonie,

That is indeed a good and speculative question. We first must
understand that the concept of holy war was completely unknown to the
Romans. Let me put it this way: the Romans did indeed face a Jihad,
if you admit that the Christian Byzantine empire was Roman. But even
then the Byzantines ignored the concept of Crusade or Jihad. Their
goal was to reconquer parts of the Empire, and certainly not launch a
Crusade like the Western Latins did.
As far as Classical Romans are concerned, they would probably have
done as they did towards the BArbarians on the Danube and Rhine
region: a campaign to crush threatening groups and then go home, and
come back later. Perhaps they would have invented a secret unit to
fight the terrorists inflitrated in the provinces. But to them,
imposing a religion meant nothing, so they would not have fully
grasped the concept of Jihad, and would therefore have acted as with
all their ennemies.

Vale bene,

T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.

Salvete omnes,

The only similar situation I can think of would be in Roman
Palestine where the Zealots used guerilla like tactics aainst the
Roman occupation forces. Perhaps similar to today, some of the
population there supported the Romans who had been drawn in
originally as arbitrators and military advisors later to become
overlords yet there were the more radical factions of the population
that opposed Rome's presence always stirring up a hornet's nest.

If I am remembering correctly it seems that the Zealot forces and a
few of their leaders began winning out over the collaborating
conservative forces and the big revolts against the Romans started
by 70 AD onwards. Ultimately the Romans so savagely crushed the
Jewish people with little quarter, the temple was destroyed and the
people sold off as slaves, fodder for the arenas or deported abroad
and it was another 1900 years before Isreal re-emerged as a state
again. Perhaps similar tactics or policies would have been used
against Mecca had Islam begun during Rome's peak.

It looks too me like the Romans often did a good job in crushing
rebellions in situ and keeping them confined to a particular sector
and not letting the violence spill into neighbouring provinces like
a disease or wild fire. Also it is possible that much of the
population throughout the empire, especially during Pax Romana was
quite content with the status quo plus the protection of Rome and
there would not have been the submission that easily to the spread
of Islam.

This is just a little speculation on my part but some of our more
learned citizens may have a different or better point of view. Lets
see what transpires.


Regards

QSP



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rocknrockabilly"
<rocknrockabilly@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
> <marsvigilia@> wrote:
> >
> > What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been

faced

> with an
> > Islamic jihad?
> >
> > --
> > >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> > Tony Dah m
> >
> > Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> > Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> Salve Domine Antonie,
>
> That is indeed a good and speculative question. We first must
> understand that the concept of holy war was completely unknown to

the

> Romans. Let me put it this way: the Romans did indeed face a

Jihad,

> if you admit that the Christian Byzantine empire was Roman. But

even

> then the Byzantines ignored the concept of Crusade or Jihad. Their
> goal was to reconquer parts of the Empire, and certainly not

launch a

> Crusade like the Western Latins did.
> As far as Classical Romans are concerned, they would probably

have

> done as they did towards the BArbarians on the Danube and Rhine
> region: a campaign to crush threatening groups and then go home,

and

> come back later. Perhaps they would have invented a secret unit to
> fight the terrorists inflitrated in the provinces. But to them,
> imposing a religion meant nothing, so they would not have fully
> grasped the concept of Jihad, and would therefore have acted as

with

> all their ennemies.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
>

I think that you may have touched the nerve. The Romans would not have
grasped the concept of the threat. I guess the next question is do we?
--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/18/06, rocknrockabilly <rocknrockabilly@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
> <marsvigilia@...> wrote:
> >
> > What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced
> with an
> > Islamic jihad?
> >
> > --
> > >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> > Tony Dah m
> >
> > Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> > Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> Salve Domine Antonie,
>
> That is indeed a good and speculative question. We first must
> understand that the concept of holy war was completely unknown to the
> Romans. Let me put it this way: the Romans did indeed face a Jihad,
> if you admit that the Christian Byzantine empire was Roman. But even
> then the Byzantines ignored the concept of Crusade or Jihad. Their
> goal was to reconquer parts of the Empire, and certainly not launch a
> Crusade like the Western Latins did.
> As far as Classical Romans are concerned, they would probably have
> done as they did towards the BArbarians on the Danube and Rhine
> region: a campaign to crush threatening groups and then go home, and
> come back later. Perhaps they would have invented a secret unit to
> fight the terrorists inflitrated in the provinces. But to them,
> imposing a religion meant nothing, so they would not have fully
> grasped the concept of Jihad, and would therefore have acted as with
> all their ennemies.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> writes:

> I think that you may have touched the nerve. The Romans would not have
> grasped the concept of the threat. I guess the next question is do we?

I think it's clear that we (as in Western Civilization) grasp that there *is*
a threat. So my first inclination is to say "yes" in response to this
question. Of course the Romans of antiquity would have grasped that a threat
existed too, despite what Antonius claims, though perhaps like us they would
have had a difficult time sorting out all the intertwined threads of the
threat trying to make sense of it. At some level of abstraction the Romans
wouldn't have cared about the details of the matter. They'd have sent envoys
to discover the nature of the problems, and if that failed they'd have sent
legions.

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

"> I´ll be there and in Germania Inferior in the ides of october. Ahahah...
and

> I will visit ´nitricum´ ateliers...
>
> ATS: And what is this nitricum? There is natron (Greek;

soda)...which is

> nitrum in Latin, soda, potash, alkali, nitre...you like that sort of

thing?"

Although I´m an radical uncyclopedian, in Wikipedia we may find something!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_fortis

When your lungs are burnt by nitrogen oxides, you start to admire aqua
fortis as a way of life...

"> You underestimate the complexities of the last flower of Latium...

>
> ATS: Alas, I have seen too many homework and test papers to have such
> positive thoughts..."

I feel lonely in a world with "ser" and "estar" are the same verb. Sometimes
you are. Other times, you are, but just temporally.


"> Now I must not put my energies on learning latin, but on the latin
dialect

> spoken on Galia.
>
> ATS: Gallia? Perhaps former tribunus Albucius can help...he joined

us in

> Britannia this year. He will help with the ancestral tongue as well, the

one

> which doesn¹t have a conditional mode or literary tenses..."

Je suis, es, est, so... I fogot... :) what a trip... that will be... people
says the gauls prefers you try latin than Britannia language with them...
Je suis le novoroman con...

Vale,
LAF


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

If you understand Jihad by �Holy War� - all wars in Ancient were Holy Wars,
because the gods themselves fighted by the cities they have defended.

So, they wouldn�t mind about more than a usual war. At the same fashion the
gods of Rome fighted the gods of Veius, Carthago and Numantia... they would
fight the Jihad... supposing it really possessed a threat to them.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus


2006/9/18, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>:

>
> "P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> writes:
>
> > I think that you may have touched the nerve. The Romans would not have
> > grasped the concept of the threat. I guess the next question is do we?
>
> I think it's clear that we (as in Western Civilization) grasp that there
> *is*
> a threat. So my first inclination is to say "yes" in response to this
> question. Of course the Romans of antiquity would have grasped that a
> threat
> existed too, despite what Antonius claims, though perhaps like us they
> would
> have had a difficult time sorting out all the intertwined threads of the
> threat trying to make sense of it. At some level of abstraction the
> Romans
> wouldn't have cared about the details of the matter. They'd have sent
> envoys
> to discover the nature of the problems, and if that failed they'd have
> sent
> legions.
>
> CN�EQVIT�MARINVS
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The same thing they did with a rebellious city called Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. When some religoius and political leaders tried to start a rebellion against the Roman Empire, it was decisively dealt with and the city was completely destroyed. The Romans would probably do to Mecca what they did to The Temple in Jerusalem and not leave one stone on top of another. The city would be rebuilt and another would be recreated in their own image so to speak, just as they did with Jerusalem. Not even the seemingly impregnable fortress of Masada could stand against the Roman war machine and it too eventually fell so I can not see that a Jihad would be able to do any better.

"P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> wrote: What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced with an
Islamic jihad?

--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/17/2006 10:41:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
marsvigilia@... writes:
What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced with an
Islamic jihad?

They crushed the fanatic Jewish Zelots, after a 5 year campaign. But, the
Byzantines under Hericles failed to defeat Arab fanatics with the resources of
the Empire. They lost at Yarmuk (636) where everything seemed to go wrong
those two days for the Christians.
The Arabs saw this as proof that God was indeed on their side and not the
Empire.
The Imperilals lost Syria, Egypt, Mesopotamia as the result of the defeat.

Perhaps the same would have happened to the Romans.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@ gmail.com> writes:

> I think that you may have touched the nerve. The Romans would not

have

> grasped the concept of the threat. I guess the next question is do

we?


Salve,

I do not know if The Romans would have grasped the concept of the
threat or not but i do beleive they would have dealt with it with a
finality that we can not, by sending in the legions killed the men and
sold the women and children to slavery. I beleive we can not deal with
Zeolots of any kind because our human right laws make it impossible.
They do not wear uniform, they are almost all civilians and our laws
forbid us to be an aggresive force against them, so usualy we have to
wait for them to make the first move (which are always horrific) and
then react. Well That's my humble opinion at least.

Vale,

Q. Fabius Sanga

1. I can not take credit for originating this thought. Thanks should go
to T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
2. I hate to say anything nuanced. But I do think there is a distinction
between understanding that there is a threat and understanding the nature of
that threat.

By way of example let's look at our current situation. The Kafir nations
face recurring acts of terrorism some quite spectacular and the threat of
truly horrifying nuclear terrorism. Some see this as a war of civilizations
others as a diplomatic and law enforcement matter. Clearly both can't be
right. I personally hold closer to the former rather than the latter. But
the debate remains what is the nature of the threat how how best to overcome
it or to appease and surrender to it.

--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/18/06, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
> "P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> writes:
>
> > I think that you may have touched the nerve. The Romans would not have
> > grasped the concept of the threat. I guess the next question is do we?
>
> I think it's clear that we (as in Western Civilization) grasp that there
> *is*
> a threat. So my first inclination is to say "yes" in response to this
> question. Of course the Romans of antiquity would have grasped that a
> threat
> existed too, despite what Antonius claims, though perhaps like us they
> would
> have had a difficult time sorting out all the intertwined threads of the
> threat trying to make sense of it. At some level of abstraction the
> Romans
> wouldn't have cared about the details of the matter. They'd have sent
> envoys
> to discover the nature of the problems, and if that failed they'd have
> sent
> legions.
>
> CN�EQVIT�MARINVS
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> writes:

> 1. I can not take credit for originating this thought. Thanks should go
> to T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
> 2. I hate to say anything nuanced. But I do think there is a distinction
> between understanding that there is a threat and understanding the nature
> of that threat.

Then please explain what you mean by "the nature of the threat." Nuance is
useful when it's clear. When it's not clear it serves no good purpose.

> By way of example let's look at our current situation. The Kafir nations

By which I take it you mean the non-Islamic nations, right? The word Kafir
is, I understand it, a degenerate version of Caphar, the Arabic word for
Christian. Nowadays you see such absurdities as people calling India a
'Kafir nation.' I think it's better to avoid the use of such terms
alltogether, since they don't really do anyone any good.

Anyway, you were saying that the non-Islamic nations...

> face recurring acts of terrorism some quite spectacular and the threat of
> truly horrifying nuclear terrorism.

It's worth noting that the people of the US, the USSR, and Europe all faced
the threat of horrifying nuclear terrorism for some decades. The threat
posed to Europe by the nuclear arsenels of the US and USSR was far greater
than anything which exists today or might exist in the next ten years in any
Muslim country.

> Some see this as a war of civilizations
> others as a diplomatic and law enforcement matter. Clearly both can't be
> right.

I'll suggest that both can be. If indeed this is a clash of civilizations,
then diplomacy is needed to resolve that clash. Likewise, law enforcement
efforts are required in the countries where people are violating the social
compact.

With that, I retire from this conversation. It has ceased to be about Roma
Antiqua or Nova Roma.

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salvete

And maybe this are the overall points here.

If you don't count the jihad as a religious matter but instead as a
political threat of power hungry people you are freed of the permanent
"religious debates" and can handle the situation like it was dealed with
since the humankind exists (until the human rights charta)


And this opens another topic which seems to be the crux in the ongoing
situation.

The human rights are more or less a charta written by the "western world"
thinking the rest of the world [2/3] would agree always with them.
But since when do we all agree ?
I mean wen NR can't agree on each matter how shall the world with more
members agree on the todays questions?

The nature simple doesn't know mercy - it was and is always eat or get eaten.
But we try to change the very basic and simple rules everything is governed by
and think with some black letters on white paper everything will be fine.

While the concept of the human rights charter might have been a good idea
it needs the agreement of an overall majority in the world and not just by
around 600 millions while the rest is doing what they think is best.

The nations which are under the attacks of "religious" motivated people
will only survive if they really understand that the foe will never ever
accept
- a human rights charter
- Geneve conventions
- or rules of combatants / non-combatants

Only if the western nations begin to ignore the religious connections
those peole are using so often and if they understand that for the
others (terrorists) it is a fight about to be or not to be
the western world will be able to find the right deccission to handle
this conflict.

If we are not willing to defend what we build up and always try to find
new ways to excuse the others behaviour we will loose everthing.

Sometimes there isn't a way back just a wall you can't climb.
And each road will end. But if you are standing with your back to the wall
your possibility to act/react will be harmed and smaller
as if you start to fight back earlier.

Why should Osama bin Lunatic and his believers negotiate ?
Did anyone started to negotiate when he thought he is winning ?
Of course not ! You only negotiate when you see you are loosing.
But why do we negotiate in the most cases ?
Are we loosing or did we lost ?
Just to be wiser and to be an example of ratio and charety ?

In the eyes of the others (or those who think they are winning)
we are weak, in culture, tradition and values of living.
And all our negotiation only proof them right in their point of view.


You may think what you like about the ancient time or others but in handling
such situation they were just better.

Sometimes you have to root out the plant together with its radix once and for all
to stop a never ending growing.


Valete
M.Fl.Philippus Conservatus

> Salve,
>
> I do not know if The Romans would have grasped the concept of the
> threat or not but i do beleive they would have dealt with it with a
> finality that we can not, by sending in the legions killed the men and
> sold the women and children to slavery. I beleive we can not deal with
> Zeolots of any kind because our human right laws make it impossible.
> They do not wear uniform, they are almost all civilians and our laws
> forbid us to be an aggresive force against them, so usualy we have to
> wait for them to make the first move (which are always horrific) and
> then react. Well That's my humble opinion at least.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Fabius Sanga
>

_____________________________________________________________________
Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
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Salvete Domine Antonis et Equite Marine,

There is indeed a difference between grasping the existence of a
threat and grasping the nature of that threat. The Romans would
clearly have understood that Islamic expansion from the 7th century
onward was a threat to Roman Order. Therefore they would have dealt
with it in the best way possible. The example of the Zealots is a
very possible way indeed. I beleive they could also have sent troops
within Arabia, as they did in Parthia, and attempt to seize the
Arabs' main cities, or at least attempt to weaken them. We could have
seen a campaign quite similar to that of Trajan or Julian in Parthia.
And we could even hypothesize that, had Arabia been conquered and
pacified (just like Greece, Gaul or Germania Superior for a time)
after the Muslims' assaults had been repelled, Arabia might have
become a province. SO far we are still within the scope of the
existence of a physical threat to the Roman Order.

Now, if Arabia had become a province, what would have happened?
This is where the understanding of the nature of the threat comes
into play. The Arabs would have remained Muslims, and this is where
the troubles for Rome begin. Muslims would probably have started
rebellion, "Holy War' against the Romans, and we would have had
uprisings similar to that of the Zealots of Ben Gourion in 70. The
Roman authorities in the region would probably have had to use the
same methods used against the Christians to compel Muslims to reject
their faith. This is however very speculative, and we enter the field
of "what-if history." But there the Romans would not have understood
the concept of Holy War; to them the only threat was phsyical, not
spiritual. Christianity and Jewish rebellions were crushed because
they ultimately threatened the Roman order. As a counter-example,
Mithraism and other Oriental cults (Isis, etc), were openly received
in Rome, because they were no threat.

The Romans fascinate me partly for that reason: they were pragmatic
and tolerant, but within limits. Anything that did not cause a threat
to Imperial order was welcome, and the rest was fought. This is the
policy applied to Christianity, Judaism, other religions and cultural
influences.

There is one thing we can certainly say about Jihadic threat to
Rome however. The Byzantine defeat and the subsequent invasion of
former provinces were the result of a weakened imperial government,
which meant a weakend and leaderless army. The Byzantine Empire in
the 7th century was in transformation to a more feudal society, was
changing shell. As when the crab is defensless when it changes its
shell, so is a civilization. This is, I beleive, what ultimately made
Muslim conquest of North Africa and the Middle East possible. Had a
Roman army (whether Byzantine or, better, "fully" Roman, that is if
the split of 395 had never occured) won Arabia or simply repelled
Muslim assaults, Islam might not have spread West of the Red Sea.
Even if Muslim Arabia had been integrated to the Empire, Islam might
have been contained because it would be within the Empire. The
results would have been alike to those of Charles Martel's victory at
Tours in 732, and today's world would be very different...

T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.

In a message dated 9/18/2006 3:58:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rocknrockabilly@... writes:
There is one thing we can certainly say about Jihadic threat to
Rome however. The Byzantine defeat and the subsequent invasion of
former provinces were the result of a weakened imperial government,
which meant a weakend and leaderless army.
Umm no. The Roman Eastern Empire under Herlicles was the strongest it was
ever been, on par with Justinian. They had just compelled the Sassanid Persian
Empire to sue for peace after a long war. Armenia had rejoined the Empire as
a client state, and a strong militaristic war leader ruled the the whole
thing, from Italy to Mesopotamia.

Any historical analysis of Yarmuk with the professional army, composed of Vet
Roman soldiers, Christianized Arab allies, and Armenian allies, simply begs
the question how could the Romans lose? They win all the time in simulations.
They lost because of overall bad luck. Everything that could go wrong simply
did.
Their CiC fell in a skirmish, even before the main Roman army was up.
The command structure was not unified, the Armenian CO, did not get along
with the new Roman.
The Arab allies were not paid, because the caravan got lost.
The weather did not favor the Romans, it favored the Arabs.
The re enforcements of Optomates never arrived, since the army collapsed
so quickly.
The retreat destroyed the army, up till now Eastern Roman armies were
disciplined
retreaters.
No wonder the Arabs took heart.

Q. Fabius Maximus




The Byzantine Empire in
the 7th century was in transformation to a more feudal society, was
changing shell. As when the crab is defensless when it changes its
shell, so is a civilization. This is, I beleive, what ultimately made
Muslim conquest of North Africa and the Middle East possible. Had a
Roman army (whether Byzantine or, better, "fully" Roman, that is if
the split of 395 had never occured) won Arabia or simply repelled
Muslim assaults, Islam might not have spread West of the Red Sea.
Even if Muslim Arabia had been integrated to the Empire, Islam might
have been contained because it would be within the Empire. The
results would have been alike to those of Charles Martel's victory at
Tours in 732, and today's world would be very different


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I respectfully disagree on several fronts.

Regardless of the etymological origins of the word. As currently used in
Islam Kafir means non-believer. The debate that actually exists is whether
Jews and Christians should actually be considered Kafir or not sense they
are people of the book. Far from being absurd, calling Hindus Kafir is
entirely consistent with the current meaning of the word, origins aside.

I'm not sure how to be anymore clear than I was. One may realize that one
is under attack without knowing the nature of the threat. The nature in
this case might include several things including motivations of attacker,
number of attackers, depth of conviction, whether negotiation is possible,
any number of items. I can not necessarily describe the nature of the
threat we currently face. As I was saying there are different points of
view. Some even go so far as to deny that there is a threat. I do have a
view on the issue, but I am by no means saying my views are definitive. Are
you?

The Soviet Union could be (and was) deterred. Deterrence worked in the cold
war. It is not at all clear how deterrence would work against Muslim
extremists.

Quick test: Chicago is blown up by a smuggled nuke. Whom do we retaliate
against? If you can't answer that question quickly and decisively then you
have lost deterrence.

If you think it is both a war of civilisations and a diplomatic/legal
problem then do you see a role for muscular military action, or is it all
supposed to be handled by diplomats and lawyers?

I actually believe this war is both about Roma Antiqua and Nova Roma. Roma
faced numerous threats, some minor inconveniences and some where its very
survival hung in the balance. How Roma confronted these threats, how it
succeeded and ultimately how it failed are extremely relevant today for
everyone in the West and in particular everyone in Nova Roma. Nova Roma is
a part of the world and these events impact the citizens of Nova Roma. Also
sense there are many pagans within the Nova Roma community, it should be
noted that Islam affords even fewer rights to pagans than to Christians and
Jews. Thus I would say it is very relevant.

--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/18/06, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...> wrote:
>
> "P. Dominus Antonius" <marsvigilia@...> writes:
>
> > 1. I can not take credit for originating this thought. Thanks should
> go
> > to T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
> > 2. I hate to say anything nuanced. But I do think there is a
> distinction
> > between understanding that there is a threat and understanding the
> nature
> > of that threat.
>
> Then please explain what you mean by "the nature of the threat." Nuance
> is
> useful when it's clear. When it's not clear it serves no good purpose.
>
> > By way of example let's look at our current situation. The Kafir
> nations
>
> By which I take it you mean the non-Islamic nations, right? The word
> Kafir
> is, I understand it, a degenerate version of Caphar, the Arabic word for
> Christian. Nowadays you see such absurdities as people calling India a
> 'Kafir nation.' I think it's better to avoid the use of such terms
> alltogether, since they don't really do anyone any good.
>
> Anyway, you were saying that the non-Islamic nations...
> > face recurring acts of terrorism some quite spectacular and the threat
> of
> > truly horrifying nuclear terrorism.
>
> It's worth noting that the people of the US, the USSR, and Europe all
> faced
> the threat of horrifying nuclear terrorism for some decades. The threat
> posed to Europe by the nuclear arsenels of the US and USSR was far greater
> than anything which exists today or might exist in the next ten years in
> any
> Muslim country.
>
> > Some see this as a war of civilizations
> > others as a diplomatic and law enforcement matter. Clearly both can't
> be
> > right.
>
> I'll suggest that both can be. If indeed this is a clash of
> civilizations,
> then diplomacy is needed to resolve that clash. Likewise, law enforcement
> efforts are required in the countries where people are violating the
> social
> compact.
>
> With that, I retire from this conversation. It has ceased to be about
> Roma
> Antiqua or Nova Roma.
>
> CN�EQVIT�MARINVS
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well said.
--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/18/06, philipp.hanenberg@... <philipp.hanenberg@...> wrote:
>
>
> Salvete
>
> And maybe this are the overall points here.
>
> If you don't count the jihad as a religious matter but instead as a
> political threat of power hungry people you are freed of the permanent
> "religious debates" and can handle the situation like it was dealed with
> since the humankind exists (until the human rights charta)
>
>
> And this opens another topic which seems to be the crux in the ongoing
> situation.
>
> The human rights are more or less a charta written by the "western world"
> thinking the rest of the world [2/3] would agree always with them.
> But since when do we all agree ?
> I mean wen NR can't agree on each matter how shall the world with more
> members agree on the todays questions?
>
> The nature simple doesn't know mercy - it was and is always eat or get
> eaten.
> But we try to change the very basic and simple rules everything is
> governed by
> and think with some black letters on white paper everything will be fine.
>
> While the concept of the human rights charter might have been a good idea
> it needs the agreement of an overall majority in the world and not just by
> around 600 millions while the rest is doing what they think is best.
>
> The nations which are under the attacks of "religious" motivated people
> will only survive if they really understand that the foe will never ever
> accept
> - a human rights charter
> - Geneve conventions
> - or rules of combatants / non-combatants
>
> Only if the western nations begin to ignore the religious connections
> those peole are using so often and if they understand that for the
> others (terrorists) it is a fight about to be or not to be
> the western world will be able to find the right deccission to handle
> this conflict.
>
> If we are not willing to defend what we build up and always try to find
> new ways to excuse the others behaviour we will loose everthing.
>
> Sometimes there isn't a way back just a wall you can't climb.
> And each road will end. But if you are standing with your back to the wall
> your possibility to act/react will be harmed and smaller
> as if you start to fight back earlier.
>
> Why should Osama bin Lunatic and his believers negotiate ?
> Did anyone started to negotiate when he thought he is winning ?
> Of course not ! You only negotiate when you see you are loosing.
> But why do we negotiate in the most cases ?
> Are we loosing or did we lost ?
> Just to be wiser and to be an example of ratio and charety ?
>
> In the eyes of the others (or those who think they are winning)
> we are weak, in culture, tradition and values of living.
> And all our negotiation only proof them right in their point of view.
>
>
> You may think what you like about the ancient time or others but in
> handling
> such situation they were just better.
>
> Sometimes you have to root out the plant together with its radix once and
> for all
> to stop a never ending growing.
>
>
> Valete
> M.Fl.Philippus Conservatus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M.Hortensia quiritibus spd;
crush them, as the Romans crushed my fanatic ancestors in Judaea.
I'm all for it;-
Don't care what reason someone has; whether it's the Imperial
family, Communism or Aryan purity. We either fight or we're going to
live under nasty undemocratic regimes with religion used to repress
people. I assure you I would rather die fighting, than lose the
freedom & equality that I as a woman enjoy in the West.
Kafir is indeed Arabic, the full noun with nominative ending is
kafirun, kafirs are unbelievers & pretty much open game. Look at the
once great Zoroastrians of Persia, what they are reduced to today.
There are only 100,000 in the world left. & the Romans feared Parthia.
valete in pacem Martis Bellonaeque;-
Marca Hortensia Maior

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/18/2006 3:58:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> rocknrockabilly@... writes:
> There is one thing we can certainly say about Jihadic threat to
> Rome however. The Byzantine defeat and the subsequent invasion of
> former provinces were the result of a weakened imperial government,
> which meant a weakend and leaderless army.
> Umm no. The Roman Eastern Empire under Herlicles was the strongest

it was

> ever been, on par with Justinian. They had just compelled the

Sassanid Persian

> Empire to sue for peace after a long war. Armenia had rejoined the

Empire as

> a client state, and a strong militaristic war leader ruled the the

whole

> thing, from Italy to Mesopotamia.
>
> Any historical analysis of Yarmuk with the professional army,

composed of Vet

> Roman soldiers, Christianized Arab allies, and Armenian allies,

simply begs

> the question how could the Romans lose? They win all the time in

simulations.

> They lost because of overall bad luck. Everything that could go

wrong simply

> did.
> Their CiC fell in a skirmish, even before the main Roman army was

up.

> The command structure was not unified, the Armenian CO, did not get

along

> with the new Roman.
> The Arab allies were not paid, because the caravan got lost.
> The weather did not favor the Romans, it favored the Arabs.
> The re enforcements of Optomates never arrived, since the army

collapsed

> so quickly.
> The retreat destroyed the army, up till now Eastern Roman armies

were

> disciplined
> retreaters.
> No wonder the Arabs took heart.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>

This issue is indeed still debated among historians. Was it
Byzantine maladministration, lack of effective leadership, religious
splits within the Empire, or simply bad luck? A few ressources at:

http://byzantium.seashell.net.nz/articlemain.php?artid=mapbase_668

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/9*.
html#7

Vale bene,

T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.

A. Apollonius P. Dominio sal.

> What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been faced with an Islamic jihad? <

Forgive me for being so dense, but although everyone else seems to understand precisely what you mean, I would be very grateful for some more specifics. Do you mean "what would they have done if a foreign army had invaded Roman territory?", or "what would they have done if a foreign person had made threats against their citizens?", or "what would they have done if some of their own citizens had attacked and destroyed a number of their aqueducts, temples, and other items of civil infrastructure?"... in short, what specific scenario are you imagining?

Because without this information your question is unanswerable. The Romans were sensible, practical people. They didn't have a ready-made policy for use in the event of "a Carthaginian act of treachery" or "a Macedonian policy of rearmament", and similarly they would not have had a ready-made policy for use in the event of "an Islamic jihad" or "a Zionist occupation" or "a Christian crusade". They would have formulated a policy in response to the concrete facts of the situation. So please indicate what concrete facts you are asking us to imagine.

Salvete A. Apolloni Corde et omnes,

I get the sense that people are wondering more about severe punishment for these people rather than strategy. Are modern western nations being too soft on terrorists and should we be more savage in dealing out punishment like the Romans or other cultures of old?

1) People like Machiavellian pointed out that a ruler should rule by fear rather than love since human nature has shown that love is far easier betrayed. Fear makes people think much harder before giving in to temptations of betrayal, rebellion etc.

2) I recall that in Roman law, if a slave killed his master, every slave in the household would be put to death. This surely encouraged slaves in a household to report any plot. Therefore today, if a young man bombs a train in London, why not punish his whole family for not reporting his behavior or trips to terrorist camps abroad, seize all their assets, and businesses they worked generations for and distribute the wealth to the victims. In this way a young upstart might think twice and his family would rat him out to authorities knowing their lives would be ruined; perhaps his whole family would be put to death for many terrorists are not afraid to die themselves but are fearful about their families. The narco trafficante Pablo Escobar was famous for his bravery, ruthlessness and arrogance but was always very fearful and paranoid about the safety of his family. Maybe their punishment or death would have shaken him into his place.

3) When caught should the terrorists die horribly? For example during the Indian Mutiny in 1857 a bunch of European men, women and children who surrendered during the siege of Cawnpore were systematically cut to pieces by professional butchers and their body parts were dumped down a well. When the city was retaken all those Sepoys involved were forced by the British soldiers to lick up every inch of blood left in the square and slaughter house then they were hanged. Later others, both Muslim and Hindu were blown from guns; i.e. tied to the mouths of field cannons and blasted out into the fields. Heads, torsos arms and legs flew in all directions and the families had to run out to retrieve the bodies before the dogs and pigs arrived. The most horrifying thing was that one could not decide what part was Hindu and what was Muslim the the families' horror and frustration multiplied when they had to figure what Hindu or Muslim part went to what grave. Others were wrapped in pig skins and shot by firing squad. Those reprisals took the wind out of their sails for sure.

The Romans executed, crucified or sent people to the arenas for sport. If caught should Ben Laden and his group meet similar punishment by being taken to high rises, lit on fire and flung off after a minute or two of suffering? Finally, ought the Islamic world be forced to suffer a similar fate like Jerusalem where thousands are wiped out as an example to others? A MOAB on a holy site where thousands worship in retaliation for a skyscraper?

I guess it all boils down to the age old question if one can conquer hearts by love and compassion or at the least keep them in their place through fear. Savage punishment and harsh reprisal seems to give temporary satisfaction to many but in the long run does not win the hearts of foes to your cause.

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Omnes,

I'm a little bit concerned about this thread and some of the assumptions that have surfaced. I'd like to have a go at these.

Firstly there is an assumption that the sort of threat we face today from Wahabi extremists like Al-Qaeda is the same as that which confronted the Byzantines. It is not. Islam has existed and flourished for centuries. During that time it has gone through many changes and developments and will no doubt continue to do so. In different times and different places it has been tolerant, intolerant, extreme, violent, moderate, pacifistic, mystical, pragmatic and so on. For centuries it was Islamic civilisation that kept alive the science and learning of the Ancient World while, frankly (bit of a pun here) we provided the savage and ignorant fanatics. To read the poetry of Omar Khayyam or Jalaluddin Rumi, or to admire the architecture of the Alhambra is to glance into a magical and special place that makes the world a better place to live in.

The problems we face today are not inherent in Islam, any more than they are in Christianity and Judaism - both of which must share some of the historical blame for the current situation. The current conflict arises from a certain malevolent trend within Islam which feeds off economic and cultural factors which - if the truth be told - have little to do with religion.

With regards to how Rome would have dealt with this you have to realise that Rome was itself part of the process and therefore of the problem. Islam did not arise in a vacuum. It is a form of monotheism evolved directly from Judaism (at that time practised by a number of Arab tribes) and the, then, dominant Byzantine Christianity. The extremes of the original Jihad - and indeed the one we face today - actually have their origin to a large extent at the Milvian bridge with the adoption by an absolute ruler of what had, contrary to its founder's teachings, become a violent, intolerant and exclusivist religion that brooked no opposition from either non-believers or its own dissidents. So what would Rome have done? Exactly what Maxentius tried to do at Saxa Rubra when he was swept aside by the Jihad.

Valete!

Caius Moravius Brutus

rocknrockabilly <rocknrockabilly@...> wrote:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/18/2006 3:58:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> rocknrockabilly@... writes:
> There is one thing we can certainly say about Jihadic threat to
> Rome however. The Byzantine defeat and the subsequent invasion of
> former provinces were the result of a weakened imperial government,
> which meant a weakend and leaderless army.
> Umm no. The Roman Eastern Empire under Herlicles was the strongest
it was
> ever been, on par with Justinian. They had just compelled the
Sassanid Persian
> Empire to sue for peace after a long war. Armenia had rejoined the
Empire as
> a client state, and a strong militaristic war leader ruled the the
whole
> thing, from Italy to Mesopotamia.
>
> Any historical analysis of Yarmuk with the professional army,
composed of Vet
> Roman soldiers, Christianized Arab allies, and Armenian allies,
simply begs
> the question how could the Romans lose? They win all the time in
simulations.
> They lost because of overall bad luck. Everything that could go
wrong simply
> did.
> Their CiC fell in a skirmish, even before the main Roman army was
up.
> The command structure was not unified, the Armenian CO, did not get
along
> with the new Roman.
> The Arab allies were not paid, because the caravan got lost.
> The weather did not favor the Romans, it favored the Arabs.
> The re enforcements of Optomates never arrived, since the army
collapsed
> so quickly.
> The retreat destroyed the army, up till now Eastern Roman armies
were
> disciplined
> retreaters.
> No wonder the Arabs took heart.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>

This issue is indeed still debated among historians. Was it
Byzantine maladministration, lack of effective leadership, religious
splits within the Empire, or simply bad luck? A few ressources at:

http://byzantium.seashell.net.nz/articlemain.php?artid=mapbase_668

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/9*.
html#7

Vale bene,

T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.






---------------------------------
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At the moment acts of extreme barbarity and ruthlessness not to mention near
genocidal responses would be difficult to even contemplate. But I am deeply
afraid that the Islamic Extremists will do something mind numbingly stupid
and we (the US) will respond in a spasm of violence that will be horrific
beyond imagination.

Remember right after 9-11 how united the US was? What would happen if
several cities were destroyed simultaneously with smuggled nukes? Many
innocent Americans would die. But what of our response? How many Middle
Eastern cities and holy sites would cease to exist? One for one? Two for
one? Ten for one? All of them? Think we wouldn't? I'm not so sure.
Imagine after such an event the news showing Muslims across the Islamic
world dancing in the streets and having camel roasts like was reported after
9-11, and think again. I shudder.

Civil rights? Many are concerned about current changes that they feel
diminish civil rights. If a number of cities were suddenly lost due to
smuggled nukes, how many civil rights would remain as the US sought to
absolutely guarantee security. The image of an iron glove on an iron fist
comes to mind.

Some nations have complained that the US has been heavy handed since 9-11.
If multiple cities are suddenly lost? Well you ain't seen nothing yet.

Some people lie awake worrying about a world where nuclear terrorism could
happen. I lie awake worrying about a world where nuclear terrorism has
happened. A marginal loss of civil liberties now or a bit of international
heavy handedness is a small price to pay if it prevents far worse tomorrow.

--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/19/06, Michael Kelly <mjk@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete A. Apolloni Corde et omnes,
>
> I get the sense that people are wondering more about severe punishment for
> these people rather than strategy. Are modern western nations being too soft
> on terrorists and should we be more savage in dealing out punishment like
> the Romans or other cultures of old?
>
> 1) People like Machiavellian pointed out that a ruler should rule by fear
> rather than love since human nature has shown that love is far easier
> betrayed. Fear makes people think much harder before giving in to
> temptations of betrayal, rebellion etc.
>
> 2) I recall that in Roman law, if a slave killed his master, every slave
> in the household would be put to death. This surely encouraged slaves in a
> household to report any plot. Therefore today, if a young man bombs a train
> in London, why not punish his whole family for not reporting his behavior or
> trips to terrorist camps abroad, seize all their assets, and businesses they
> worked generations for and distribute the wealth to the victims. In this way
> a young upstart might think twice and his family would rat him out to
> authorities knowing their lives would be ruined; perhaps his whole family
> would be put to death for many terrorists are not afraid to die themselves
> but are fearful about their families. The narco trafficante Pablo Escobar
> was famous for his bravery, ruthlessness and arrogance but was always very
> fearful and paranoid about the safety of his family. Maybe their punishment
> or death would have shaken him into his place.
>
> 3) When caught should the terrorists die horribly? For example during the
> Indian Mutiny in 1857 a bunch of European men, women and children who
> surrendered during the siege of Cawnpore were systematically cut to pieces
> by professional butchers and their body parts were dumped down a well. When
> the city was retaken all those Sepoys involved were forced by the British
> soldiers to lick up every inch of blood left in the square and slaughter
> house then they were hanged. Later others, both Muslim and Hindu were blown
> from guns; i.e. tied to the mouths of field cannons and blasted out into
> the fields. Heads, torsos arms and legs flew in all directions and the
> families had to run out to retrieve the bodies before the dogs and pigs
> arrived. The most horrifying thing was that one could not decide what part
> was Hindu and what was Muslim the the families' horror and frustration
> multiplied when they had to figure what Hindu or Muslim part went to what
> grave. Others were wrapped in pig skins and shot by firing squad. Those
> reprisals took the wind out of their sails for sure.
>
> The Romans executed, crucified or sent people to the arenas for sport. If
> caught should Ben Laden and his group meet similar punishment by being taken
> to high rises, lit on fire and flung off after a minute or two of suffering?
> Finally, ought the Islamic world be forced to suffer a similar fate like
> Jerusalem where thousands are wiped out as an example to others? A MOAB on a
> holy site where thousands worship in retaliation for a skyscraper?
>
> I guess it all boils down to the age old question if one can conquer
> hearts by love and compassion or at the least keep them in their place
> through fear. Savage punishment and harsh reprisal seems to give temporary
> satisfaction to many but in the long run does not win the hearts of foes to
> your cause.
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Suetonius Paulinus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae voluntatis
S.P.D.

[Disclaimer: the following is a work of fiction intended for
entertainment. It is based on information supplied by the contestants, race
calculations provided by C. Curius Saturninus, which include the order of
finish and any accidents, coupled with the writer's knowledge of relevant
matters and personalities. It is not intended to offend anyone].

[We return to the Circus Maximus for the final race of the Ludi Romani].

The excitement is building in the Circus Maximus as the final race in
these, the most important games of the year, will soon get under way. The
spectators have been scurrying about, trying to get some refreshments and to
make that last pit stop at the latrinae before the increasingly-muddy mappa
drops. They are making their way back to their seats; soon the Porta Pompae
will swing open, and the four horsemen of the apocalyptic race will emerge.

Meanwhile, the four charioteers and the assorted grooms, veterinarians,
wainwrights, smiths, physicians, etc., check and re-check everything: the
horses, the chariots, the tack, even the charioteers themselves. There's no
room for error now. The various workers of Factio Albata have had an
especially difficult task before them, for Incitatus was damaged in a
collision during the first semifinal race as you no doubt recall, and has
had to have some emergency repairs. The horses seem well enough, and the
driver, Furius Bellator, was merely shaken (not stirred...), but the chariot
box was not so fortunate, and there is some question about the integrity of
the wheel and axle assembly. They had to make a quick switch on one wheel,
or so I hear, and there has been a lot of hammering and sawing and what have
you behind the scenes--far behind the scenes, in the Albata stable, not in
the waiting area under the watchful eyes of several interested parties.

Finally, everyone seems satisfied with the repairs and the condition of
all involved--men, beasts, and vehicles are ready for the final race.
Incitatus has been brought back to the waiting area, and reunited with
Furius Bellator and his team; the eyes of the young Crassus and his
assistants, like those of the two Veneta aurigae and their helpers, seem to
sweep over it nonchalantly, but their powers of observation are carefully
honed, and anyone who thought that these veterans didn't notice every nick
would be making a serious mistake.

At last the Porta Pompae opens for the final time today; the chariots
make their way to the carceres, and the drivers draw their lots. First is
Crassus of Aprilis, the lone Russata representative, who again draws Aries;
then it is Incitatus' turn, the sole Albata chariot, whose auriga, Furius
Bellator, gets Capricorn; next is the first Veneta entry, Velox Puteolanus
Sors, whose driver, Felix Celeris, selects Aquarius. Last is the second
Veneta contender, Equus Magnus. Its charioteer, Orionis Draco, again draws
Leo. They take their places in the carceres; the attendants signal that all
is ready. Consul Buteo Modianus rises once again, and the crowd grows
still. The tension is palpable; the air crackles with excitement--but for a
few moments, the horses are the noisiest things in the Circus. Consulis
manu mappa decidit, et missi sunt! A roar rises from the crowd...

This time even the initial pace isn't really slow, but prudent drivers
still conserve their steeds' strength for those crucial final laps. Equus
Magnus leads the pack as the round the turn. Orionis Draco is keeping close
to the metae, and seems determined to see how close he can come without
touching them or any part of the spina. Incitatus is next as they head into
the second lap. At least at this early point in the race, Furius Bellator's
tactics are quite different: he's content to slow down on those dangerous
curves, but picks up speed on the straightaways. Velox Puteolanus Sors and
Aprilis seem to be biding their time as the dolphin drops, and they enter
the third lap. Now one leads, and now another; they are closely bunched,
and it doesn't take much for the last to become first, and the first, last.

The pace quickens as they head into the fourth lap. Incitatus is taking
the straightaways at a good clip, and is now in the lead, with Equus Magnus,
Velox Puteolanus Sors, and Aprilis close behind. The horses are churning up
the mud on the track, and spattering it all over the chariots and
charioteers as well as themselves. Incitatus certainly doesn't look very
white any more, nor does Furius Bellator's tunica. In fact, all of them
should be taken to the fuller's as soon as this race is over--and the
aurigae should head for the baths. Aoife isn't the only one who needs a
good scrubbing now. Down on the track, things are starting to get serious.
They're coming round the turn approaching the fifth lap, and there's not
much holding back any more. Equus Magnus takes the turn so tightly that one
wheel is lifted off the ground, and passes Incitatus. Not to be outdone,
young Crassus is feeling his oats as he comes alongside, the breeze
flattening his loose ringlets against his damp forehead. Velox Puteolanus
Sors soon overtakes both, however, and is in second place. Around the turn
they dash again, with Equus Magnus so close to the spina that its wheels are
throwing off sparks. The horses are giving their all; there's only one lap
to go. Everything rests on this sixth lap, and the seventh and final one to
follow. The horses are thundering down the track on the straightaways; the
chariots rattle, and their wheels sing. The dolphin drops for the seventh
lap, and the crack of whips is added to the percussion section of the
symphony. There's also an odd hum from Incitatus' replacement wheel...let's
hope it's all right. Oh, dear! Bellator is dropping back, and Aprilis
passes him; Incitatus takes the turn, and as it does, the replacement wheel
parts company with the axle. The left side of the chariot box is dragging
on the ground, and Furius Bellator is cursing roundly as he reins the horses
in, trying to balance himself on a one-wheeled chariot. Albata's hopes are
completely dashed now; a groan goes up from the Albata fans, whereas
Veneta's and Russata's have just risen, and the mood is upbeat among their
partisans, especially among Veneta's, for they have two contenders to
Russata's one. Equus Magnus, however, may have peaked too early; the horses
are heavily lathered despite the mild weather, and are plainly tired. They
have reached their limits, and drop back with the finish line in sight.
Both Orionis Draco and owner T. Licinius Crassus use some rather
ungentlemanly language about this turn of events... and neither is thrilled
that young Crassus, that comparative neophyte who just lost his competitive
virginity, has passed them...but Velox Puteolanus Sors now squeaks by
Crassus and Aprilis, and wins by perhaps half a nose. A thrilling finish!
Owner L. Vitellius Triarius is ecstatic! His friends are congratulating
him, clapping him on the back...while matters are less festive elsewhere.
The Albata partisans are crestfallen, and sums of money seem to be changing
hands hither and yon; in fact, I think I see Praetor Paulinus exchanging
coins with someone else...

The tension is broken as another series of races draws to a close; the
blue banners of Veneta wave everywhere, for a chariot from that faction has
taken the prize. Russata fans, too, are happy to see an upcoming champion
in Crassus, whose skill increases with every race he enters. His father,
Aedilis Curulis T. Iulius Sabinus, and all the Russata partisans can be
proud of him. Perhaps Albata will have better luck next time; perhaps, too,
Praesina might field an entry or two or three to make things more
interesting. We'll just have to wait and see.

The fans are making their way toward the vomitoria (exits/entrances),
and as they depart for home, we bid you farewell.

This has been A. Tullia Scholastica, reporting from the Circus Maximus.

Valete,

Be it that Rome fell 1500 years ago Our ability to destroy a city in a single bomb would be jaw dropping to their military. But when the Celts (Gauls) sacked Rome in 390BCE (last time till near the end of the Empire). Roman Civilization did not forget and when Celtic civilization on mainland Europe was brought firmly under Roman rule with Caesars conquest with about 5 million Gauls staughtered. One can only wonder what a response a terror attack with nukes could unleash.

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
Salvete omnes,

The only similar situation I can think of would be in Roman
Palestine where the Zealots used guerilla like tactics aainst the
Roman occupation forces. Perhaps similar to today, some of the
population there supported the Romans who had been drawn in
originally as arbitrators and military advisors later to become
overlords yet there were the more radical factions of the population
that opposed Rome's presence always stirring up a hornet's nest.

If I am remembering correctly it seems that the Zealot forces and a
few of their leaders began winning out over the collaborating
conservative forces and the big revolts against the Romans started
by 70 AD onwards. Ultimately the Romans so savagely crushed the
Jewish people with little quarter, the temple was destroyed and the
people sold off as slaves, fodder for the arenas or deported abroad
and it was another 1900 years before Isreal re-emerged as a state
again. Perhaps similar tactics or policies would have been used
against Mecca had Islam begun during Rome's peak.

It looks too me like the Romans often did a good job in crushing
rebellions in situ and keeping them confined to a particular sector
and not letting the violence spill into neighbouring provinces like
a disease or wild fire. Also it is possible that much of the
population throughout the empire, especially during Pax Romana was
quite content with the status quo plus the protection of Rome and
there would not have been the submission that easily to the spread
of Islam.

This is just a little speculation on my part but some of our more
learned citizens may have a different or better point of view. Lets
see what transpires.

Regards

QSP

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rocknrockabilly"
<rocknrockabilly@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "P. Dominus Antonius"
> <marsvigilia@> wrote:
> >
> > What do you think the Romans would have done if they had been

faced

> with an
> > Islamic jihad?
> >
> > --
> > >|P. Dominus Antonius|<
> > Tony Dah m
> >
> > Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
> > Islam religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> Salve Domine Antonie,
>
> That is indeed a good and speculative question. We first must
> understand that the concept of holy war was completely unknown to

the

> Romans. Let me put it this way: the Romans did indeed face a

Jihad,

> if you admit that the Christian Byzantine empire was Roman. But

even

> then the Byzantines ignored the concept of Crusade or Jihad. Their
> goal was to reconquer parts of the Empire, and certainly not

launch a

> Crusade like the Western Latins did.
> As far as Classical Romans are concerned, they would probably

have

> done as they did towards the BArbarians on the Danube and Rhine
> region: a campaign to crush threatening groups and then go home,

and

> come back later. Perhaps they would have invented a secret unit to
> fight the terrorists inflitrated in the provinces. But to them,
> imposing a religion meant nothing, so they would not have fully
> grasped the concept of Jihad, and would therefore have acted as

with

> all their ennemies.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> T. Afr. Sec. Flamininus.
>

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SALVETE QUIRITES !

The last day of Ludi Romani 2759 a.U.c

http://www.crystalwebvision.com/aedil/sept19.htm

Our thanks to participants.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS
Curule Aedile.

Salve,

I hope it's OK to greet everyone. I'm new to the list, and while I have, naturally, heard of Nova Roma ...this is my first real introduction to it. What an absolutely delightful list! It does look as though I'll need to figure out the finer points of Roman nomenclature, and dust off my Latin (learned many years ago) so that I can feel more at home here, and perhaps contribute something. My special interest is in the late Republic and early Empire (and the transition between them) and, having just finished McCullagh's October Horse, my mood is to be very generous to Julius Caesar ...I very much liked her portrayal of his personality.

The fiction is charming, and extremely vivid and well done, too!

Shoshana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes!

At last we come to the end of the certamen, and I would like to thank everyone who took part in the contest, whether it was for one day or for all six. You honor yourself, Nova Roma, and Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, in whose name the Ludi Romani are held. Here are the final two answers:
Question #11:

What major Nova Roman turn of events took place on June 30th, 1999 and who were the consuls for that year?

Answer: June 30th Nova Roma went adruptly offline and entered into Civil War and, as a result, there were three consuls that year: Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus (whose election was invalidated by Senate appointed dictator Flavius Vedius Germanicus), Decius Iunius Palladius, and Lucius Cornelius Sulla.

Question #12:

During the Ludi Romani of 2756, who was the Curule Aedile presenting the games, who won the Cultural award, and whose chariot was victorious? (3 points)

Answer: Fr. Apulus Caesar was the Curule Aedile, Gaia Flavia Aureliana won the Cultural Award, and Gaius Iulius Scaurus' chariot "Raptor Cruentus" won the Circenses.

And the final ranking of the contestants:

Philippus Marcius Pictor (previously philip9789) -- 28 points
Gaius Marcius Crispus -- 26 points
Lucius Cassius Cornutus -- 25 points
Caius Moravius Brutus -- 25 points
L. Cassius Pontonius -- 12 points
Titus Vergilius Catulus -- 12 points
Q Cornelia Quadrata -- 11 points
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus -- 10 points
D. Fabia Flavia-- 9 points
Q. Iulius Celsus -- 7 points
Marcus Vipsanius Pollio -- 6 points
Gaia Iulia -- 6 points
Gaius Marius Trajanus -- 5 points
C. Flavius Lepidus -- 2 points
Tiberius Marius Drusus -- 2 points
Gallio Velius Marsallas -- 1 point

Congratulations to Philippus Marcius Pictor on his victory! Well done!

Valete bene,
T. Artoria Marcella
Scriba Curulis Aedilis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Shoshana,

Shoshana Hathaway wrote:

> Salve,
>
> I hope it's OK to greet everyone.

It most assuredly is. Be welcome.

> I'm new to the list, and while I
> have, naturally, heard of Nova Roma ...this is my first real
> introduction to it. What an absolutely delightful list!

You may not feel the same in December when we hit election season, but I
do hope you'll continue to find us worth your while.

> It does
> look as though I'll need to figure out the finer points of Roman
> nomenclature,

Oh, it helps, but you can get by here without it.

> and dust off my Latin (learned many years ago) so that
> I can feel more at home here, and perhaps contribute something. My
> special interest is in the late Republic and early Empire (and the
> transition between them) and, having just finished McCullagh's
> October Horse, my mood is to be very generous to Julius Caesar ...I
> very much liked her portrayal of his personality.

She did create quite the hagiography of him, didn't she? I liked those
books myself, though I confess I prefered the earlier stories to the
later. In any case, she deserves a lot of credit for renewing an
interest in Roma Antiqua that has brought many, many people to us.

Vale,

-- Marinus

Hello Shoshana,

Welcome to NR. We know one another from the IR2 group and I have
always enjoyed reading your posts. Don't hesitate to ask for any
questions or help navigating around. I hope you enjoy your stay and
share your ideas and thoughts!

Regards,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Shoshana Hathaway"
<shoshanahathaway@...> wrote:

>
> Salve,
>
> I hope it's OK to greet everyone. I'm new to the list, and while

I have, naturally, heard of Nova Roma ...this is my first real
introduction to it. What an absolutely delightful list! It does
look as though I'll need to figure out the finer points of Roman
nomenclature, and dust off my Latin (learned many years ago) so that
I can feel more at home here, and perhaps contribute something. My
special interest is in the late Republic and early Empire (and the
transition between them) and, having just finished McCullagh's
October Horse, my mood is to be very generous to Julius Caesar ...I
very much liked her portrayal of his personality.

>
> The fiction is charming, and extremely vivid and well done, too!
>
> Shoshana
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Yes, I noted your presence, as well as several others I know from IR ...an indication in itself that I shall enjoy my stay, here.

Shoshana, considering jihads, Roman responses, Carthage, Jerusalem ...other issues, but not quite ready to talk about them, LOL.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia C. Moravio spd;
in a sense I will disagree with you; it seems the problem is
inherent in Islam; why does my Synagogue need to post a guard for
Rosh Hashonah? Otherwise why dones't the U.K's large population of
Hindus & Jains pose a problem?
India, Singapore & Japan have adapted in varying degrees to
democratic principles & maintained their cultures.

As a Jew I ask you, why is anti-semitism so endemic in the U.K. that
parliament met last Thursday to discuss this? With
Muslims 'disproportionately represented as attackers.' Why have
young French Jews emigrated en masse to Israel? Because there is
neither the will nor the manpower to enforce Western laws and
notions of civil discourse. And the European Jews are appeasing
wimps!
I don't care that the European intelligentsia are anti-Israel,
fine but don't let me as a Jew be attacked for it, or even as an
Israeli. Theo Van Gogh got his head cut off for discussing women's
plight in Islam. So much for free speech.

In the great state of North Carolina, where I live,you can
pack a concealed weapon (with a background check). I think my temple
should fire the guard & we should be responsible for ourselves. At
least a fanatical Muslim would think twice & if proceding get shot
dead.
I'm not too naive to think people will be reasonable. The
Holocaust is reason enough. And Brute, Dhimmitude is not a swell
situation to live under. Like the New Hampshire motto: "Live Free or
Die"
Marca Hortensia Maior

Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;

If I had my way, every single violent lawbreaker in the world would be
executed by the MOST painful means possible.

Religiously inspired murderers would be hoisted high by a stake run up
the nether orifice of their alimentary canal.

Pedophiles would be wrapped in canvas and slowly drown in bogs.

Rapists would be eaten alive by swine.

Murderers would be slain by the method they used to kill, but much slower.

The older I get, the less tolerant I get towards those who do harm to
the weal of the broader community;.

valete - Venii

Salve,

we must know why arisen Islamic Jihad. Islam in the history was very
tolerant religion. But from colonial time this status was changed. We
in the West arisen Islamic Jihad. Look on the East ! We changed
Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria to battle field. And reaction ? Jihad
against America and West.

Vale
SLT

> Valetudo quod fortuna omnes;
>
> If I had my way, every single violent lawbreaker in the world

would be

> executed by the MOST painful means possible.
>
> Religiously inspired murderers would be hoisted high by a stake

run up

> the nether orifice of their alimentary canal.
>
> Pedophiles would be wrapped in canvas and slowly drown in bogs.
>
> Rapists would be eaten alive by swine.
>
> Murderers would be slain by the method they used to kill, but much

slower.

>
> The older I get, the less tolerant I get towards those who do harm

to

> the weal of the broader community;.
>
> valete - Venii
>

--M. Hortensia Sex.Lucillio spd;
'tolerant' I don't know where you get your information from,
but that's nonsense. Jews & Christians lived under
restrictions,termed 'Dhimmi: they were scorned, required to wear a
special dress, yes this gave Hitler the swell idea to make Jews wear
a yellow star, pay a special tax etc... & were persecuted from time
to time depending on the ruler.
And so what, the Middle East was colonized by the West?
What kind of ridiculous excuse is that for Jihad:
Have you heard of Arab Colonialism? Or somehow do you have
amnesia?
What on earth do you think the Arabs did to the Middle East, to
Turkey, to Persia, Byzantium, the Balkans, Greece, North Africa,
Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Madagascar, Aghanistan, India hmm, Malaysia &
Indonesia.
Eheu the ignorance of history.
Marca Hortensia Maior

- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sextus_lucilius_tutor" <phorus@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve,
>
> we must know why arisen Islamic Jihad. Islam in the history was

very

> tolerant religion. But from colonial time this status was changed.

We

> in the West arisen Islamic Jihad. Look on the East ! We changed
> Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria to battle field. And reaction ?

Jihad

> against America and West.
>
> Vale
> SLT
>

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
> --M. Hortensia Sex.Lucillio spd;
> What on earth do you think the Arabs did to the Middle East, to
> Turkey, to Persia, Byzantium, the Balkans, Greece, North Africa,
> Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Madagascar, Aghanistan, India hmm, Malaysia &
> Indonesia.
> Eheu the ignorance of history.
> Marca Hortensia Maior
>

The Arabs conquered lands from the Maghreb to Pakistan. THis included
Persians, who were and are not arabs, and Turkish nomadic tribes. The
Arabs never set foot in Greece or the BAlkans. The Turks did. Yet the
Turks are not Arabs; this is why the famous Lawrence of arabia sought
to help the Arabs free themselves from Ottoman Turkish rule. But let us
now go back to Rome...

T. Minicius Flamininus.

Salve,

I have for you question. If muslims were like Nazis why Jews in Middle
Ages scamper from Christian kingdoms to muslims?
Answer is that Jews had more freedom than in Europe.

Vale
SLT

"sextus_lucilius_tutor" <phorus@...> schrieb am 20.09.2006 08:40:45:

>
> Salve,
>
> we must know why arisen Islamic Jihad. Islam in the history was very
> tolerant religion. But from colonial time this status was changed. We
> in the West arisen Islamic Jihad. Look on the East ! We changed
> Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria to battle field. And reaction ? Jihad
> against America and West.
>
> Vale
> SLT

Salvete,

Excuse me Sextus Tutor, but about which isalm are you talking ?
Where can we find this islam ?
At least you can't mean the islam on this world conquering regions by regions
during the past and oppressing other religious believes ?

Or are you speaking about the overhelming tolerance in their own states
where other religiouns are not free to build up their own temples and churches?

Or do you mean those texts passages telling the world there are only
two site the islamic one and the rest, not worth to protect while not
of the right believe and therefore it is ok to threat those regions with
acts of war, terror or blaming ?

Or do you mean the tolrant islam who cries around like little children
as soon as you said a single word od critic ?

Or do you mean the tolerant islam who claims the right to tells
us what is allowed as caricature and what not while at the same
time they are publishing cartoons and comics about the other religions
in the most terrible way ?


If the western world would react in the same way those muslims are doing
they would all gone to hell already !

Ah, you published a anti Jew cartoon where they are eating babies!
Boom, we send some planes (as we don't use suicide bombers, a pure waste of resources)
and destroy some buildings.

Ah, they are burning churches and wooosh some missiles on some buildings there.

Oh, they disrespect any form of christian believe
and we will all run out on the streets and burn their flags
and attack their ambassies.

Oh hell, the blaimed the pope and soon we will write some fatwas.

O-ha they are writing some books about Jewish and Christian religions
and we will call to kill them.

To use a small episode of history (and 200 years are nothing) to explain us
we should have a better understanding for them is, with respect, a joke.

For what, hu?
The crussaids ? And I thought the christian church and supporters lost them ...
Therefore it was a victory for the muslims and not a defeat.

Or should we be sorry we stopped the Turks at Vienna twice?

Or that they lost the Spanish region after they conquered it ?

Of course not. And it also not our problem they weren't able to
create anything you could find as an important developement
in the past 200 years you could find in philosophy, medicine od somewhere else.

If you always kill your creative heads or send them to prison cuz "they are not living the Kuran"
I wont wonder why they are living like they do !

Buying Western products and taking our money without to be willing to clean
their own flats before to blaim us can't be the right way.

What the hell does they really have the western world would need ?

Oil ? At the oment yes. So what ? We have enough and high educated scientist
to find other energy sources!

And then? Sand ? or some stones ?
I have both in my own nation.

Or should we import turbans to show our sympaties with them and start to
follow the sharia ?

That would be lunatic and I would not be willing to to this.

At the very moment this would really happen here I can promise you
the lights will be out as NO pesron I know in Europe would ever accept this.

I gave a damn nothing on the words of the muslims in Europe as
long as they don't really start to accepts our standards.

They are here becuase they wanted to be here. We din't pressed them to
leave the countries.
But to leave your country saying it is so despotic and intollerant
but as soon as you reach Europe you are working hard to change your
host nation into the country you left before is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
At least for me.

And now , my dear sextus lucilius tutor, you may guess why I have
this opinion.
As a little tip to win the jakpot, It might have to do something with dail live
and expirience.

Valete
M.Fl.Philippus Conservatus
_____________________________________________________________________
Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
http://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc=100071&distributionid=000000000066

Tolerant. I suppose the Muslims think they are tolerant. I suppose that
it's easy to think you are tolerant when it's your boot on the neck of the
other guy. How many synagogues or christian churches are there in Saudi
Arabia? What is the penalty for leaving Islam? Which religion goes around
force converting other people the performing circumcisions and
clitorectomies with rusty scissors? Yep they are on tolerant bunch all
right.

Gods protect us from such tolerance.
--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Mahometismus religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/20/06, sextus_lucilius_tutor <phorus@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> we must know why arisen Islamic Jihad. Islam in the history was very
> tolerant religion. But from colonial time this status was changed. We
> in the West arisen Islamic Jihad. Look on the East ! We changed
> Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria to battle field. And reaction ? Jihad
> against America and West.
>
> Vale
> SLT
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the Europeans have invited a tiger into their house to play and are
now afraid to ask it to behave or ask it to leave. Hopefully the tiger
won't eat all the children of Europe. But these children must grow up and
take responsibility for their house, or it will not be their house for long.
--

>|P. Dominus Antonius|<

Tony Dah m

Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Mahometismus religio pacis, nex omnibus dissentint.

On 9/20/06, philipp.hanenberg@... <philipp.hanenberg@...> wrote:
>
>
> "sextus_lucilius_tutor" <phorus@...> schrieb am 20.09.2006 08:40:45:
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > we must know why arisen Islamic Jihad. Islam in the history was very
> > tolerant religion. But from colonial time this status was changed. We
> > in the West arisen Islamic Jihad. Look on the East ! We changed
> > Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria to battle field. And reaction ? Jihad
> > against America and West.
> >
> > Vale
> > SLT
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Excuse me Sextus Tutor, but about which isalm are you talking ?
> Where can we find this islam ?
> At least you can't mean the islam on this world conquering regions by
> regions
> during the past and oppressing other religious believes ?
>
> Or are you speaking about the overhelming tolerance in their own states
> where other religiouns are not free to build up their own temples and
> churches?
>
> Or do you mean those texts passages telling the world there are only
> two site the islamic one and the rest, not worth to protect while not
> of the right believe and therefore it is ok to threat those regions with
> acts of war, terror or blaming ?
>
> Or do you mean the tolrant islam who cries around like little children
> as soon as you said a single word od critic ?
>
> Or do you mean the tolerant islam who claims the right to tells
> us what is allowed as caricature and what not while at the same
> time they are publishing cartoons and comics about the other religions
> in the most terrible way ?
>
>
> If the western world would react in the same way those muslims are doing
> they would all gone to hell already !
>
> Ah, you published a anti Jew cartoon where they are eating babies!
> Boom, we send some planes (as we don't use suicide bombers, a pure waste
> of resources)
> and destroy some buildings.
>
> Ah, they are burning churches and wooosh some missiles on some buildings
> there.
>
> Oh, they disrespect any form of christian believe
> and we will all run out on the streets and burn their flags
> and attack their ambassies.
>
> Oh hell, the blaimed the pope and soon we will write some fatwas.
>
> O-ha they are writing some books about Jewish and Christian religions
> and we will call to kill them.
>
> To use a small episode of history (and 200 years are nothing) to explain
> us
> we should have a better understanding for them is, with respect, a joke.
>
> For what, hu?
> The crussaids ? And I thought the christian church and supporters lost
> them ...
> Therefore it was a victory for the muslims and not a defeat.
>
> Or should we be sorry we stopped the Turks at Vienna twice?
>
> Or that they lost the Spanish region after they conquered it ?
>
> Of course not. And it also not our problem they weren't able to
> create anything you could find as an important developement
> in the past 200 years you could find in philosophy, medicine od somewhere
> else.
>
> If you always kill your creative heads or send them to prison cuz "they
> are not living the Kuran"
> I wont wonder why they are living like they do !
>
> Buying Western products and taking our money without to be willing to
> clean
> their own flats before to blaim us can't be the right way.
>
> What the hell does they really have the western world would need ?
>
> Oil ? At the oment yes. So what ? We have enough and high educated
> scientist
> to find other energy sources!
>
> And then? Sand ? or some stones ?
> I have both in my own nation.
>
> Or should we import turbans to show our sympaties with them and start to
> follow the sharia ?
>
> That would be lunatic and I would not be willing to to this.
>
> At the very moment this would really happen here I can promise you
> the lights will be out as NO pesron I know in Europe would ever accept
> this.
>
> I gave a damn nothing on the words of the muslims in Europe as
> long as they don't really start to accepts our standards.
>
> They are here becuase they wanted to be here. We din't pressed them to
> leave the countries.
> But to leave your country saying it is so despotic and intollerant
> but as soon as you reach Europe you are working hard to change your
> host nation into the country you left before is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
> At least for me.
>
> And now , my dear sextus lucilius tutor, you may guess why I have
> this opinion.
> As a little tip to win the jakpot, It might have to do something with dail
> live
> and expirience.
>
> Valete
> M.Fl.Philippus Conservatus
> _____________________________________________________________________
>


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