To the moderators of this group i can not handle all of the mail I am getting from your group. Not only that but being new i feel left behind and ignored alot in the conversation. I understand this and you have already developed your own click of friends and dont have a lot of room for new ones.
this being said i wish you to take me off of this group page. I will continue to pursue my Roman interest elswhere in Nova Roma maybe I will find a more open and friendly group who is willing to share more of the Nova Roma way of doing things then to just ignore the newbies of which there are four of us and hope that we would be able to follow along some day?
Sincerly Marcus Marius Leonitus Britainicus
Centurian and Commander of Romunees Sonorum


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.

I just received notification from Custos Titus Licinius Crassus on the
results of the Comitia Centuriata. Congratulations to the candidates who
won, and a thank you to those who ran but did not get elected. The results
are as follows:

Comitia Centuriata

With 47 of 51 Centuries voting the results are as follows:

Censor

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

Consules

Lucius Arminius Faustus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Praetores

Gaius Equitius Cato
Aula Tullia Scholastica

---

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Praetor Tiberie Pauline,


Why in the world speak such words? Are some citizens less welcome
than others? It is the most basic rights of all Roman citizen to
express him/herself freely. This is a discussion board, not a real
face-to-face debate where self-restraint is indeed necessary to keep
the debate from falling into anarchy. Every citizen who reads the
messages do not have to (as far as I know) read everyone's messages.
As long as the sender respects the rules, then why speak in such
uncivic words to tell a fellow citizen to shut up?? This is not what
the Republic stands for!

T. Minicius Flamininus.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Galerio spd;
> what kind of 'slack' are you giving me? The right as a civis
> to speak in the forum? It's not your right future Consul to give or
> take away.
>
> If my words stir up the people to ask what is happening to our
> rights & ask questions. That is a good thing.
>
> I am a proud plebeian, cultrix & Nova Roman. This is not a
> dictatorship where laws can be abridged.
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> > I have tried as best as I can, during our current elections, to
> cut
> > you some slack but your apparent inability to step away from the
> > computer and count to five hundred has grown most irksome.
> >
> > I.E. "slightly annoying, especially because of being tedious"
> >
> > Please, pretty please with a cheery on top take the weekend off.
> >
> > Read a book, read two books, read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of
the
> Roman Empire
> > ( all six volumes).
> >
> > Please go to the movies and see "Spartacus", "Ben
> Hur" , "Gladiator",
> > "The Mouse That Roared" something, anything but
> >
> > Please take a break from your computer.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > Praetor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Agricola Omnibus sal

I have read that since this large wreck was found in fairly shallow
waters the Spanish authorities took the precaution of building a steel
cage around it, to prevent looting. Thanks are due to the Spanish
authorities for taking the trouble to protect this site.

optime valete



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Iunius"
<iunius_verbosus@...> wrote:

>
> L. Iunius Quiritibus sal.
>
> I imagine our Europeans have already seen this. Hundreds of jars of

garum found in a

> shipwreck of the Spanish coast.
>
> http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/11/14/fishsauce_arc.html?
> category=history&guid=20061114090030
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6146592.stm
>
> Vale
>

---Salvete Omnes:

I have tried to stay out of the election wrangling as much as
possible , but I will say here and now that I am very appreciative
of Hortensia's role as Tribune last year; her quick action, and the
advocacy of a few Senators steered both Modianus and myself safely
into the Consulship,in keeping with the peoples' wishes at the
cista, and in keeping with constitutional language on the matter at
hand. The election results were late, and time was naturally of the
essence. She assured a lawful solution.

I do not always agree with Maior, and she doesn't with me. That's
part of being human. But I will say to you all tonight how much I
appreciate her attention on Dec. 31 of last year.

She did a great service to anyone elected in the Comitia Centuriata
and Comitia Populi Tributa last year. The Tribune elections didn't
get resolved until later in January, but she was one of five
Tribunes and she can't take ownership for the actions of an entire
collegium....an unfortunate situation, all around. Why the elections
were held early this year for all three comitia.

I remember this vividly and thankfully Maior, former Tribuna...I
don't expect I'll be forgetting it too quickly either.

Be well,

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:

>
> M. Hortensia Galerio spd;
> what kind of 'slack' are you giving me? The right as a

civis

> to speak in the forum? It's not your right future Consul to give

or

> take away.
>
> If my words stir up the people to ask what is happening to our
> rights & ask questions. That is a good thing.
>
> I am a proud plebeian, cultrix & Nova Roman. This is not a
> dictatorship where laws can be abridged.
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> > I have tried as best as I can, during our current elections, to
> cut
> > you some slack but your apparent inability to step away from the
> > computer and count to five hundred has grown most irksome.
> >
> > I.E. "slightly annoying, especially because of being tedious"
> >
> > Please, pretty please with a cheery on top take the weekend off.
> >
> > Read a book, read two books, read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of

the

> Roman Empire
> > ( all six volumes).
> >
> > Please go to the movies and see "Spartacus", "Ben
> Hur" , "Gladiator",
> > "The Mouse That Roared" something, anything but
> >
> > Please take a break from your computer.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > Praetor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salve M. Hortensia Maior

As you well know I asked you to read a book or go see a movie.
I said please a number of times and I never told you not to post.

I ASKED you to take a break.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Praetor

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Maior" <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> M. Hortensia Galerio spd;
> what kind of 'slack' are you giving me? The right as a
civis
> to speak in the forum? It's not your right future Consul to give
or
> take away.
>
> If my words stir up the people to ask what is happening to our
> rights & ask questions. That is a good thing.
>
> I am a proud plebeian, cultrix & Nova Roman. This is not a
> dictatorship where laws can be abridged.
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> > I have tried as best as I can, during our current elections, to
> cut
> > you some slack but your apparent inability to step away from the
> > computer and count to five hundred has grown most irksome.
> >
> > I.E. "slightly annoying, especially because of being tedious"
> >
> > Please, pretty please with a cheery on top take the weekend off.
> >
> > Read a book, read two books, read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of
the
> Roman Empire
> > ( all six volumes).
> >
> > Please go to the movies and see "Spartacus", "Ben
> Hur" , "Gladiator",
> > "The Mouse That Roared" something, anything but
> >
> > Please take a break from your computer.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> > Praetor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Salve Scaurus,

> Am I the only oner who finds it darkly ironic that barely a day after
> you plastered the forum with calls for concordia you are now
> fulminating to have someone declared a traitor and expelled from Nova
> Roma for proposing a decretum to formally beseech the Gods for
> concord?

I for one am not at all surprised.
Vale,
Diana

SALVETE !

Congratulations to winners !

Fabius Buteo Modianus is an excelent person.

Paulinus is a great man and a honourable one. In the last time I saw
that Faustus is on the same way.

I'm glad to see that the next Praetors will be my friends Cato and
Scholastica. They really deserve that.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
>
> I just received notification from Custos Titus Licinius Crassus on

the results of the Comitia Centuriata. Congratulations to the
candidates who won, and a thank you to those who ran but did not get
elected. The results are as follows:

> With 47 of 51 Centuries voting the results are as follows:
> Censor
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> Consules
>
> Lucius Arminius Faustus
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Praetores
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
> Aula Tullia Scholastica

Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal

He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having thought
about it though I would like Maior to continue.

The old republic gave away free bread, so the least we can do in this
electronic age is give away free farce. Based on previous experiences
this "distribution" will probably last for days, if not weeks.

Priceless entertainment for all - for free.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "phoebusix" <phoebusix@...> wrote:
>
> Salve Praetor Tiberie Pauline,
>
>
> Why in the world speak such words? Are some citizens less
welcome

Salve Gaius Iulius Scaurus, Amice!

It is true that wrote to You as You and I have corresponded,
disagreed and cooperated before. As I am extremely occupied in RL
activities at this period of my life I didn't pay enough attention to
your proposal to also ask You to consider the legitimate needs and
rights of the Consuls to put up items for the Senate and Comitia to
consider.

It may be too late, but in the name of our old cooperation and the
Concordia that You want to support I now ask You to add such
provisions to your decretum, may I also recommend that before doing
so it might prove wise to openly consult others in the Collegium.

As You might have seen I am offering my mediation in this whole
affair, if You find that offer to be of any assistance, please
contact me privately.

>I then received a request from Metellus Pius, and an email from Fabius
>Buteo Quintilianus making the same request, that I include a provision
>for election of vacant magistracies. I discussed the matter with the
>Pontifex Maximus and agreed to do so.

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus GFBM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

SALVETE !

First, congratulations to the next year Curules Aediles ! They will
do a great job for sure.
Second, congratulations to my co-fellow dacian candidates. They
honored our province.

VALETE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
>
> I just received notification from Custos Titus Licinius Crassus

the results

> of the Comitia Populi Tributa. Congratulations to the candidates

who won,

> and a thank you to those who ran but did not get elected. The

results are

> as follows:
>
> Comitia Populi Tributa
>
> With 35 of 35 Tribes voting the results are as follows:
>
> Curules Aediles
>
> Tita Artoria Marcelia
> Iulia Caesar Cytheris Aege
>
> Quaestor
>
> Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Posumianus
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> Quintus Iulius Probus
> Gaius Marius Maior
>
> Diritores
>
> Marcus Arminius Maior
> Titus Pontius Silanus
>
> Custodes
>
> Pompeia Minucia Strabo
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
>
> ---
>
> Valete:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> Consul
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete Quirites!

I think it is totally contra-productive to threaten each other with
anything like "Treason Against the Republic". I am not all that happy
with the proposed decretum or the power of the Collegium Pontificum
to issue decreta that may paralyze parts of political process for 45
days, but I still hope that we may be able to solve this conflict in
Concordia.

I am not at this moment convinced that Gaius Iulius Scaurus had any
intention to paralyze the whole political process with his proposed
decretum. I still hope to a find a creative opening in this conflict,
but then we must talk with each other and not scream!

Please let us sit down and see if we can't find solution that will
support the Pax Deorum, Concordia, the suzerainty of the Res Publica
and the powers of its magistracies without tearing up a rift that is
incurable.

I hereby offer myself as a mediator in this process if the parties
involved see any possibility to work on a solution together with me.
If the parties don't want to make use of my offer I will support any
other _serious_ effort to find a solution to this that is acceptable
to all parties.

I do this as I am convinced that it is my duty as a Senator,
Censorius, Consulars and citizen to take my part of the
responsibility for the future of our beloved Res Publica.

>M. Hortensia Quiritibus;
> this decretum of the the CP which forbids our voting is an
>attack on our rights, our republic.
>
>All our tribunes should veto this attack on our freedom to convene
>to vote, to reform!!
> Otherwise I shall petition all tribunes who fail to use
>their Intercessio to ensure the rights of all Quirites under Laesa
>Patriae - for Treason.
>
> A decretum of the ahistorical CP is not legislation & not peaceful -
> rather a usurpation of or right under the Consitution. Tyranny!
>
>I also shall petition to prosecute Scaurus for Treason against Nova
>Roma.
>
>21. LAESA PATRIAE (Treason Against the Republic):
>The definition of laesa patriae includes, but is not limited to, any
>overt act by a citizen which a reasonable person would conclude to
>be damaging or defamatory to the republic, its religio, or its
>institutions, including acts which may expose the republic, its
>religio, or its institutions to macronational legal action, if such
>act is not legally authorised by the republic or its agents, and/or
>acts which endanger the ability of the republic, its religion, or
>its institutions to perform its legal functions;
>The offense may be aggravated for purposes of penalty by any citizen
>who openly declares enmity to the republic, its religio, or its
>institutions in connection with an act described in (1); and that
>The penalty for laesa patriae shall be not less than deprivation of
>citizenship for one year nor more than permanent deprivation of
>citizenship, according to the formula of the praetor. Whoever acts
>in such a manner as to seriously and explicitly endanger the
>continued existence of the Republic of Nova Roma, its properties,
>its institutions, its constitution, or the position of the Religio
>Romana as the state religion shall suffer EXACTIO for a period up to
>life. No one shall be prosecuted under this offence for any
>legislative proposal or peaceful attempt to reform the State by
>means of legislation
>
> may the gods protect us from Tyrants!
> M. Hortensia

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus

Senator, Censorius et Consularis
Accensus GFBM
Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Yes!
Congratulations to the winners, especially to Tiberius Galerius Paulinus and
our two new Praetors Gaius Equitius Cato and Aula Tullia Scholastica. I
would have loved to see Sabinus as Praetor too (but we only can have 2), but
as he is such a hard worker and a well-loved dedicated citizen, I know we'll
hear more great things from him in the future.

And congratulations Modianus! I know you ran uncontested, but I am happy to
see you as Censor.

The best of luck to all the new magistrates of Nova Roma!
Vale,
Diana

SALVE DIANA !

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Aventina" <diana@...> wrote:
>
> Yes!
> Congratulations to the winners, especially to Tiberius Galerius
Paulinus and our two new Praetors Gaius Equitius Cato and Aula Tullia
Scholastica. I would have loved to see Sabinus as Praetor too (but we
only can have 2), but as he is such a hard worker and a well-loved
dedicated citizen, I know we'll hear more great things from him in the
future.>>>

I agree. This is a good moment to energize me.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Kirsteen Wright"
<kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:

>
> On 11/17/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hortensia Scauro;
> > Fine in the spirit of Concordia let's beseech the gods in
> > January for only a nunduum when we do not need to vote.
>
>
> So what you mean is 'let's tell the gods we've more important things

than

> them but we'll fit them in when it suits us'. Do you honestly think

that's

> the way to ensure thePax Deorum?
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
> Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M. Lucretius Agricola Flaviae Lucillae Merulae

A fine example of a straw man agrument you post there. I find it
better to pay attention to what people actually say rather than to
what people may have twisted it into.

Our ancestors had a balance, expressed in the Fasti. There was time
for the gods and time for the state. If our ancestors were happy with
this balance, a balance that preserved them for centuries, I don't see
that we should imply impietas on those who propose such a balance now.

I see nothing wrong with the CP taking a public lead in promoting the
Pax Deorum. I hope they will. I wish that had been doing more along
these lines all along. But I see no need to bring the normal
mechanisms of the state to a halt to promote the pax deorum. We have
Saturnalia coming, we have a new year, we have many opportunities to
build the pax deorum, and the leadership and example of the CP would
be a great help in fulfilling the obligations our ancestors fulfilled
at this time of year.

To build the pax deorum is good. To welcome Concordia is good. Ever to
move closer to the ways of the ancestors is good. To secure the
stability of the state is good. To educate the citizens in the ancient
ways is good. To lose our balance in favor of one at the expense of
the others is bad.

We should build the pax deorum by following the ancient ways, not by
casting them aside.

optime valete in pax deorum

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal
>
> He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having thought
> about it though I would like Maior to continue.
>
> The old republic gave away free bread, so the least we can do in this
> electronic age is give away free farce. Based on previous experiences
> this "distribution" will probably last for days, if not weeks.
>
> Priceless entertainment for all - for free.
>
>

Agricola Caesari Omnibusque sal

To engage in debate, sometimes passionate, is the priviledge of a
citizen. I take your remarks as a device of rhetoric, because to
belittle another citizen without rebuttal of ideas is the act of a
clown, and I had not thought you one, nor think I so now.

Debate, even strong, passionate debate, improves us. Differences of
style may be tedious but we must accept them to get the greatest
benefit from open debate.

Personal attacks, no matter how oblique, can never be of value.
Statements of opinion, when dressed up in the guise of facts, should
always be rooted out and exposed for what they are.

Optime valete in pace deorum

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "phoebusix" <phoebusix@> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Praetor Tiberie Pauline,
> >
> >
> > Why in the world speak such words? Are some citizens less
> welcome
>

Caesar Agricolae sal.

Maior's right's are not under threat. Of course many of us think that
at various times the points that she could make get lost in the
ludicrous excesses of language. However that is her right, subject to
the praetorian edicts.

Maior doesn't debate, by any normally accepted sense of the word. I
am quite serious - I want Maior to continue. Her points in this case
are, in my opinion, invalid and wide of the mark. The longer that she
beats her drum and the more excessive the language the more that
people will be able to judge the inherent worth of the message. Maior
usually loses these exchanges thanks to her inability to control her
temper.

Maior continuing in this manner makes rebutting her points so much
easier. One just has to sit back and watch the message vanish. I
consider that farce and yes I would pay to watch it - as a lesson in
how not to press a point.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> >
> > Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal
> >
> > He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having

thought

Scaurus Quintiliano SPD.

Salve, amice.

> It is true that wrote to You as You and I have corresponded,
> disagreed and cooperated before. As I am extremely occupied in RL
> activities at this period of my life I didn't pay enough attention to
> your proposal to also ask You to consider the legitimate needs and
> rights of the Consuls to put up items for the Senate and Comitia to
> consider.
>
> It may be too late, but in the name of our old cooperation and the
> Concordia that You want to support I now ask You to add such
> provisions to your decretum, may I also recommend that before doing
> so it might prove wise to openly consult others in the Collegium.
>
> As You might have seen I am offering my mediation in this whole
> affair, if You find that offer to be of any assistance, please
> contact me privately.

I have no problem asking for your help publicly, amice.

M. Moravius Piscinus and Hortensia Maior have finally revealed what
all this opposition to the decretum is about, and it surprises me
greatly. I was told by the Pontifex Maximus that C. Fabius Buteo
Modianus had given his word to him that the constitutional amendment
which Modianus calls his reform of the religio would not be brought to
Comitia this year. I took the senior consul at his word, so I never
that thought this was an issue. However, it appears now that it is an
issue.

If the senior consul is prepared to repeat his promise to the Pontifex
Maximus here in the forum and will give me the dates on which he
wishes Comitia to vote on his other amendments, I shall amend the
decretum accordingly to make provision for that vote and present it
again to the Collegium as amended. As a pontifex and flamen I cannot
abet the Pontifex Maximus being deceived, so I must have assurance
that the word given to the Pontifex Maximus still holds.

Vale.

Scaurus

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Scauro salutem dicit

No one was deceived. I stated I would not present the Religio Reform
proposal to the comitia and I meant it. I indicated to the Pontifex Maximus
that I would present no reforms without his approval, and I stand behind
that. I have not once discussed with anyone any intention to convene the
Comitia to present material of the reform to the comitia since I discussed
this with the Pontifex Maximus. I think the Reform is necessary, but I wish
not to proceed without his approval. It would never have been brought to
the senate if he had protested it before it went to the senate. The
Pontifex Maximus is (or at least was who knows now) is one of my advisors,
and could have protested the Reform anytime to me from April until it was
presented to the senate but he chose to do so in the senate instead of in
private or on my cohors -- much to my surprise. He and I talked. I advised
him that I would not present the Religio Reform, and I keep that promise and
had no intention of violating my promise to him.

Here is another example of someone making statements on the list as fact
when they are speculation only.

I have no problem what so ever swearing that it was not my intention to
bring the Religio reform to the comitia after I gave my word to Marcus
Cassius Julianus, and if I was asked by our Pontifex Maximus then he would
have know that I had no intention of breaking my word.

Although your words below indicate exactly what was suspected by myself and
others. That this "Decretum" of yours is politically motivated and has
NOTHING to do with "reconciliation." I can assure you, the Pontifex
Maximus, and everyone interested that I have no intention of presenting the
Religio Reform to the Comitia (and neither does my colleague). However, I
am not going to have you dictate when I can call the comitia. I will not
succumb to your political threats. Do what you will, but I am not going to
ask your permission when I can and cannot convene the Comitia.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 11/17/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Quintiliano SPD.
>
> Salve, amice.
>
> > It is true that wrote to You as You and I have corresponded,
> > disagreed and cooperated before. As I am extremely occupied in RL
> > activities at this period of my life I didn't pay enough attention to
> > your proposal to also ask You to consider the legitimate needs and
> > rights of the Consuls to put up items for the Senate and Comitia to
> > consider.
> >
> > It may be too late, but in the name of our old cooperation and the
> > Concordia that You want to support I now ask You to add such
> > provisions to your decretum, may I also recommend that before doing
> > so it might prove wise to openly consult others in the Collegium.
> >
> > As You might have seen I am offering my mediation in this whole
> > affair, if You find that offer to be of any assistance, please
> > contact me privately.
>
> I have no problem asking for your help publicly, amice.
>
> M. Moravius Piscinus and Hortensia Maior have finally revealed what
> all this opposition to the decretum is about, and it surprises me
> greatly. I was told by the Pontifex Maximus that C. Fabius Buteo
> Modianus had given his word to him that the constitutional amendment
> which Modianus calls his reform of the religio would not be brought to
> Comitia this year. I took the senior consul at his word, so I never
> that thought this was an issue. However, it appears now that it is an
> issue.
>
> If the senior consul is prepared to repeat his promise to the Pontifex
> Maximus here in the forum and will give me the dates on which he
> wishes Comitia to vote on his other amendments, I shall amend the
> decretum accordingly to make provision for that vote and present it
> again to the Collegium as amended. As a pontifex and flamen I cannot
> abet the Pontifex Maximus being deceived, so I must have assurance
> that the word given to the Pontifex Maximus still holds.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Romans

I would like to take a few moments to address an issues that is
currently making the rounds in the forum.

On the proposed decretum I believe we need to take a step back and
look at what is being proposed and what some of its effects would
be.

According to the actual wording of the proposed decretum

"any day from a.d. XiV Kal. Dec. (Nov. 17) through pridie Kal. Ian.
(December 31) MDCCLIX a.u.c. which is not nefastus or nefastus
publicus to be fastus and designate this period as a period of
sacrifice, prayer, reflection, and expiation.

As I read it this is an attempt to try and reconcile the factions
within and with out the Cp and in Nova Roma in general.

As there are only thirteen day left in November the proposed
decretum would make these last thirteen days fastus and designate
this period as a period of sacrifice, prayer, reflection, and
expiation. This is a most fitting thing to do. It just so happens
to coincide with a period of Thanksgiving in the USA, a place of
resident for a large number of our citizens. Just a few weeks ago
our citizens who reside in Canada celebrated the same type of
Thanksgiving.

Of the thirty-one days in December, ten are already either nefastus
or nefastus publicus and so this decretum would only effect the
other twenty-one . The Festival of Saturnalia takes place during
seven of these and it is "a time of acknowledged universal peace
throughout Roma, when all people are to be treated fairly (including
criminals and slaves), war ceased, and traditional norms and rules
are set aside"Â….which is in keeping with the stated purpose of the
proposed decretum,

peace and reconciliation in Nova RomaÂ…. a godly goal if I have ever
heard one.

This means that if enacted the Collegium Pontificum would have us
devote thirty-four (not forty-five days) to peace and
reconciliation or one tenth of a year.

Would I have like it better if this had been done last July,
maybe but if they believe we need in now and did not need it then so
be it.

This is not a coup d'etat, nor a revolt of the masses and it is
assuredly not Treason against the Republic. Such hyperbole is
unworthy of Romans.

The proposed decretum has already been revised to accommodate the
concerns of our civil and religious officials and I am sure other
accommodations can and will be made. During this time in addition
to a period of sacrifice, prayer, reflection, our newly elected
Tribunes will be installed , the final elections of our magistrates
will take place and hopefully peace and reconciliation in Nova Roma
will reign supreme


Pax

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Praetor

Agricola Caesari sal

What I wrote was about debate and accepting different styles thereof,
but you answered still talking about Maior. It is your right, I
suppose, to do so, and I thank you for your reply.

I am beginning to think, however, that there are better things to
discuss than Marca Hortensia Maior. Enough other people have mentioned
her positive contributions, so I think that should not be an issue I
must speak to.

We have all kinds of people here, with many styles, and I still think
we have to allow for that. I remain of the opinion that posts saying
"Citizen X has a style I do not like, so we should ignore citizen X"
are wholly out of place here, or anywhere that free participation is
encouraged. I am sure we can agree on that.

optime vale in pace deorum!




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

>
> Caesar Agricolae sal.
>
> Maior's right's are not under threat. Of course many of us think that
> at various times the points that she could make get lost in the
> ludicrous excesses of language. However that is her right, subject to
> the praetorian edicts.
>
> Maior doesn't debate, by any normally accepted sense of the word. I
> am quite serious - I want Maior to continue. Her points in this case
> are, in my opinion, invalid and wide of the mark. The longer that she
> beats her drum and the more excessive the language the more that
> people will be able to judge the inherent worth of the message. Maior
> usually loses these exchanges thanks to her inability to control her
> temper.
>
> Maior continuing in this manner makes rebutting her points so much
> easier. One just has to sit back and watch the message vanish. I
> consider that farce and yes I would pay to watch it - as a lesson in
> how not to press a point.
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal
> > >
> > > He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having
> thought
>

---Pompeia Minucia Strabo G Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

You wrote:

> [...]
>
>
> I was told by the Pontifex Maximus that C. Fabius Buteo
> Modianus had given his word to him that the constitutional

amendment

> which Modianus calls his reform of the religio would not be

brought to

> Comitia this year.

Pompeia: Yes, and believe me, Pontifex, he stated as much on the
mainlist, admidst continued debate on the reform lasting I'd say
about a week after the last Senate call, and he's indicated as much
in other forums. It is widely known, with respect, that Modianus
has no intention of introducing the issue before comitia this year.
This transpired before your return so you might not be aware
yourself.

I was, as Consul Minor, beginning to wonder what potential concern
was perhaps lingering with respect to consular comitia calls or
legislation proposals for the remainder of the year. The remaining
four items we intend to present are thought to foster potential
benefit to the republic, but they are hardly political 'nukes' in
terms of negative ramifications ...certainly nothing which should
pose a threat to any one body of the republic....the least of these
I should think, the religious institution. And the people will give
an honest appraisal, though opinions and votes.


I took the senior consul at his word, so I never

> that thought this was an issue. However, it appears now that it

is an

> issue.

Pompeia: Some of my Consular concerns, if I may express them in
good faith, are not about the proposed constitutional
amendments ...this isn't 'all about me' :>) to coin a trendy phrase.
It is, for one, that the time period of your decretum seems rather
long, with respect, as compared to historical average, when there is
no pressing threat...NR's problems in this regard seem unfortunately
more chronic than acute, although I agree with you that a period of
prayer and reflection are indicated...this is commendable. Maybe
even two shorter times per year.

Would it not be better though, to completely 'shutter down' for the
more traditional 8 days or so, rather than 1.5 month's of a 'quasi'
lukewarm shutdown, allowing for this and that, but not the other
aspect of civil activity (which, bottom-line, is really not much of
an interruption at all)?

Further, one cannot anticipate what circumstances may arise in the
future, necessitating a comitia call....an unanticipated appeal for
one. We need to summon comitia for that. And that is a citizen's
constitutional right. Is it necessary to make one wait 1.5 months
for a visit to the people?

Finally, I'd just like to point out that this lengthy a shutdown
could have some serious political ramifications. All current good
faith aside, I'm sure you would not want to set a precedent whereby
this could get political in future...you want, I'm sure, religious
dates and weeks determined for the proper reasons...religious
reasons.

>
> If the senior consul is prepared to repeat his promise to the

Pontifex

> Maximus here in the forum and will give me the dates on which he
> wishes Comitia to vote on his other amendments, I shall amend the
> decretum accordingly to make provision for that vote and present it
> again to the Collegium as amended. As a pontifex and flamen I

cannot

> abet the Pontifex Maximus being deceived, so I must have assurance
> that the word given to the Pontifex Maximus still holds.

Pompeia: That is up to him of course, but I can assure you that I
know of no sudden change in plans to present religious reforms
before comitia this year.

>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus

Vale et Gratias

>

Scaurus Modiano SPD.

Consul, if you will read again when I wrote, you will note that I
thought that your reform amendment was off the table because of what
you told the Pontifex Maximus. I thought that when I proposed the
decretum. Indeed, I thought that the period of sacrifice and
expiation which I proposed would be an excellent way to precede any
discussion of reform of the religio in the next year. I did not think
the issue was going to go away, since there are others beside yourself
who are pushing for it. I was hoping to gain the aid of the Di
Immortales in restoring sufficient concord and amity that the matter
could be discussed without great acrimony. I still accept your word
on the matter.

The people who have brought what they call a reform of religio into
this matter are Piscinus and Maior.

You say that I am speculating rather than relating fact. You have
now, as I requested, confirmed the only fact I stated about you: you
will honour your vow to the Pontifex Maximus. I laud you for this. I
was only concerned that Piscinus and Maior were making of this
something which you had promised the Pontifex Maximus would not be.

I am not dictating when you can call the Comitia. I have only asked
that you tell us when you want the vote in the Comitia. Since contio
is permitted on dies fasti, but not voting, that is the only needed
datum. I am not telling you when to call the Comitia. I am asking
when you intend to call the Comitia so I can amend the decretum. You
set the dates. I shall amend the decretum. Can we not agree on this?

Vale.

Scaurus

--Hortensia C. Fabio Buteo Quitiliano spd;
In light of your words may I suggest:

Non. Feb. - the Nones of February February 5th
Concordiae in Capitolio (Ant. mai.)
Concordiae in Arce (Pren.)
this is the traditional and historic feria of Concordia.
"The Praetor L. Manlius vowed a temple to Concord after he had
crushed a mutiny of his troops in Cispaline Gaul in 218 B.C." p. 72
"Festival and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic" H. H. Scullard.

This is historic, this is Roman, this is suitable and
appropriate .This is the mos of our ancestors. Let us come together
and celebrate this traditional feria. And this way avoid all
dissension.
Hortensia

> Salvete Quirites!
> I think it is totally contra-productive to threaten each other

with

> anything like "Treason Against the Republic". I am not all that

happy

> with the proposed decretum or the power of the Collegium

Pontificum

> to issue decreta that may paralyze parts of political process for

45

> days, but I still hope that we may be able to solve this conflict

in

> Concordia.
>
> I am not at this moment convinced that Gaius Iulius Scaurus had

any

> intention to paralyze the whole political process with his

proposed

> decretum. I still hope to a find a creative opening in this

conflict,

> but then we must talk with each other and not scream!
>
> Please let us sit down and see if we can't find solution that will
> support the Pax Deorum, Concordia, the suzerainty of the Res

Publica

> and the powers of its magistracies without tearing up a rift that

is

> incurable.
>
> I hereby offer myself as a mediator in this process if the parties
> involved see any possibility to work on a solution together with

me.

> If the parties don't want to make use of my offer I will support

any

> other _serious_ effort to find a solution to this that is

acceptable

> to all parties.
>
> I do this as I am convinced that it is my duty as a Senator,
> Censorius, Consulars and citizen to take my part of the
> responsibility for the future of our beloved Res Publica.
>
> >M. Hortensia Quiritibus;
> > this decretum of the the CP which forbids our voting

is an

> >attack on our rights, our republic.
> >
> >All our tribunes should veto this attack on our freedom to convene
> >to vote, to reform!!
> > Otherwise I shall petition all tribunes who fail to use
> >their Intercessio to ensure the rights of all Quirites under

Laesa

> >Patriae - for Treason.
> >
> > A decretum of the ahistorical CP is not legislation & not

peaceful -

> > rather a usurpation of or right under the Consitution. Tyranny!
> >
> >I also shall petition to prosecute Scaurus for Treason against

Nova

> >Roma.
> >
> >21. LAESA PATRIAE (Treason Against the Republic):
> >The definition of laesa patriae includes, but is not limited to,

any

> >overt act by a citizen which a reasonable person would conclude to
> >be damaging or defamatory to the republic, its religio, or its
> >institutions, including acts which may expose the republic, its
> >religio, or its institutions to macronational legal action, if

such

> >act is not legally authorised by the republic or its agents,

and/or

> >acts which endanger the ability of the republic, its religion, or
> >its institutions to perform its legal functions;
> >The offense may be aggravated for purposes of penalty by any

citizen

> >who openly declares enmity to the republic, its religio, or its
> >institutions in connection with an act described in (1); and that
> >The penalty for laesa patriae shall be not less than deprivation

of

> >citizenship for one year nor more than permanent deprivation of
> >citizenship, according to the formula of the praetor. Whoever acts
> >in such a manner as to seriously and explicitly endanger the
> >continued existence of the Republic of Nova Roma, its properties,
> >its institutions, its constitution, or the position of the Religio
> >Romana as the state religion shall suffer EXACTIO for a period up

to

> >life. No one shall be prosecuted under this offence for any
> >legislative proposal or peaceful attempt to reform the State by
> >means of legislation
> >
> > may the gods protect us from Tyrants!
> > M. Hortensia
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
>
> Senator, Censorius et Consularis
> Accensus GFBM
> Praeses, Triumvir et Praescriptor Academia Thules ad S.R.A. et N.
> Editor-in-Chief, Publisher and Owner of "Roman Times Quarterly"
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
>

M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.

I think extraordinary times often call for extraordinary measures. We
are living in extraordinary times, but I think good ones, and ones
that do not call for a disruption of our ancient ways. Let me explain
why I think we are living in good times.

This year, for the first time in years, we have minted a coin. Not
only that, but they are selling well, showing their popularity. I can
tell you now that they regularly sell on eBay for ten times their face
value! This means that for the first time collectors are taking
serious interest in our coins. This is a good thing.

This year, for the first time in years, we have seen a growth in the
Macellum. Two wonderful new vendors have been added in the last few
weeks, in addition to those that were added earlier in the year. The
Macellum is up to date now for the first time in years, available in
multiple languages and growing still. The commercial life of Nova Roma
has never been healthier.

This year, for the first time in years, we have seen substantial new
contributions to our web site. This is of course due to the switch to
the wiki system. Citizens are still learning their wiki skills, and
the rate of contributions is constantly increasing. Next year is set
to be far better still.

This year, for the first time ever we have a podcast. Anyone who
thinks it should release more frequently probably does not understand
the technical and logistical hurdles that are being overcome. Expect
much more in the coming year, but this year was a good start.

This year the Conventus in Europa continued to bring citizens together
in impressive numbers. I sorely regret not attending this year (look
at the wiki page!) and I'm looking forward to the chance to join next
year in Hispania.

This year saw an end to the churning of memberships. The citizen test
prevents the frivolous from inflating our numbers and things like the
New Roman list and the newer, gentler tone here help us to retain new
citizens in larger numbers.

This year, the cultus deorum is stronger than ever. A pontifex has
recently agreed here with my assesment that the number of physical
shrines is growing and that citizens are participating in public
rituals in increasing numbers. If all goes well I myself might be able
to dedicate a public shrine in Asia Orientalis, perhaps the first one
to the Dei Romae in this part of the world.

This year has greater political security and stability than in the
past. Our elections have gone ahead in a manner far superior to the
crisis of last year. We still have open slots, but that is no crisis
at all. A real danger to the state was averted, with controversy,
true, but with no serious damage to the state.

If we are off track, I cannot imagine what other track we should be on.

Extraordinary measures are not needed to strengthen the pax deorum. If
prayers must be offered, if sacrifices must be made, if rituals must
be performed, then let it bee done according to the ancient ways. Let
us not disrupt a system in order to set it right.

Let physical shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
virtual shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
prayers be written and posted. Nothing now prevents it. Let Concordia
be honored, Nothing now prevents it. Let the wiki be used as a tool
for enlightenment and instruction. Nothing now prevents it. Let
rituals be performed to all the gods. Nothing now prevents it. Let
lararia be built. Nothing now prevents it.

Let the life of Nova Roma continue in the well-balanced way of our
ancestors. Let nothing prevent it.

optime valete in pace deorum.

Valetudo quod fortuna;

I will be the first to admit that I am not a fan of European Football
(nor American for that matter).

But, a man and athelete like Ferenc Puskás is most certainly deserving
of a memorial accolade in my view.

It also speaks well of him, and of the devotees of his sport, that he
was recognized for his accoplishments while he lived.

May That Which Is Holy judge him well and worthy, and may he find a
good reward in the afterlife.

--
=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias, Diribitor et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.myspace.com/stefnullarsson
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.

Valetudo quod fortuna;

Basil Poledouris; I am indeed familiar with his work in the realm of
movie music.

He teamed up several times with John Mileus, one of my favorite movie directors.

Ah well, the giants of my youth prove to be mortal.

--
=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias, Diribitor et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.myspace.com/stefnullarsson
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.

---Salve Lucreti Agricolae et Salvete Omnes:

What a lovely post.

My sincere thanks.

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I think extraordinary times often call for extraordinary measures.

We

> are living in extraordinary times, but I think good ones, and ones
> that do not call for a disruption of our ancient ways. Let me

explain

> why I think we are living in good times.
>
> This year, for the first time in years, we have minted a coin. Not
> only that, but they are selling well, showing their popularity. I

can

> tell you now that they regularly sell on eBay for ten times their

face

> value! This means that for the first time collectors are taking
> serious interest in our coins. This is a good thing.
>
> This year, for the first time in years, we have seen a growth in

the

> Macellum. Two wonderful new vendors have been added in the last few
> weeks, in addition to those that were added earlier in the year.

The

> Macellum is up to date now for the first time in years, available

in

> multiple languages and growing still. The commercial life of Nova

Roma

> has never been healthier.
>
> This year, for the first time in years, we have seen substantial

new

> contributions to our web site. This is of course due to the switch

to

> the wiki system. Citizens are still learning their wiki skills, and
> the rate of contributions is constantly increasing. Next year is

set

> to be far better still.
>
> This year, for the first time ever we have a podcast. Anyone who
> thinks it should release more frequently probably does not

understand

> the technical and logistical hurdles that are being overcome.

Expect

> much more in the coming year, but this year was a good start.
>
> This year the Conventus in Europa continued to bring citizens

together

> in impressive numbers. I sorely regret not attending this year

(look

> at the wiki page!) and I'm looking forward to the chance to join

next

> year in Hispania.
>
> This year saw an end to the churning of memberships. The citizen

test

> prevents the frivolous from inflating our numbers and things like

the

> New Roman list and the newer, gentler tone here help us to retain

new

> citizens in larger numbers.
>
> This year, the cultus deorum is stronger than ever. A pontifex has
> recently agreed here with my assesment that the number of physical
> shrines is growing and that citizens are participating in public
> rituals in increasing numbers. If all goes well I myself might be

able

> to dedicate a public shrine in Asia Orientalis, perhaps the first

one

> to the Dei Romae in this part of the world.
>
> This year has greater political security and stability than in the
> past. Our elections have gone ahead in a manner far superior to the
> crisis of last year. We still have open slots, but that is no

crisis

> at all. A real danger to the state was averted, with controversy,
> true, but with no serious damage to the state.
>
> If we are off track, I cannot imagine what other track we should

be on.

>
> Extraordinary measures are not needed to strengthen the pax

deorum. If

> prayers must be offered, if sacrifices must be made, if rituals

must

> be performed, then let it bee done according to the ancient ways.

Let

> us not disrupt a system in order to set it right.
>
> Let physical shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it.

Let

> virtual shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> prayers be written and posted. Nothing now prevents it. Let

Concordia

> be honored, Nothing now prevents it. Let the wiki be used as a tool
> for enlightenment and instruction. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> rituals be performed to all the gods. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> lararia be built. Nothing now prevents it.
>
> Let the life of Nova Roma continue in the well-balanced way of our
> ancestors. Let nothing prevent it.
>
> optime valete in pace deorum.
>

Valetudo quod fortuna;

If I may?

Looking at the proposed "holy" decree...

("holy" because I give my worship to the Northern Deities, rather than
the Capitoline.)

What I read tells me that a period of days in which we are admonished
to meditate/pray/sacrifice/look to the Holy Ones of Rome has been
proposed, which will last about 6 weeks.

What I read also tells me that the proposed decree also allows for
necessary gaps to hold elections to resolve unfilled offices and laws.

What I read also tells me that the main sport of some in Nova Rome is
the re-creation of the worst of Roma Antiqua's internecine blather.

--
=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.myspace.com/stefnullarsson
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.

Would you also agree that certain styles are so outlandish and drastic that they, as well, are totally out of place here.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:06:44 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote

> Agricola Caesari sal
>
> What I wrote was about debate and accepting different styles thereof,
> but you answered still talking about Maior. It is your right, I
> suppose, to do so, and I thank you for your reply.
>
> I am beginning to think, however, that there are better things to
> discuss than Marca Hortensia Maior. Enough other people have mentioned
> her positive contributions, so I think that should not be an issue I
> must speak to.
>
> We have all kinds of people here, with many styles, and I still think
> we have to allow for that. I remain of the opinion that posts saying
> "Citizen X has a style I do not like, so we should ignore citizen X"
> are wholly out of place here, or anywhere that free participation is
> encouraged. I am sure we can agree on that.
>
> optime vale in pace deorum!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> <gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:
> >
> > Caesar Agricolae sal.
> >
> > Maior's right's are not under threat. Of course many of us think that
> > at various times the points that she could make get lost in the
> > ludicrous excesses of language. However that is her right, subject to
> > the praetorian edicts.
> >
> > Maior doesn't debate, by any normally accepted sense of the word. I
> > am quite serious - I want Maior to continue. Her points in this case
> > are, in my opinion, invalid and wide of the mark. The longer that she
> > beats her drum and the more excessive the language the more that
> > people will be able to judge the inherent worth of the message. Maior
> > usually loses these exchanges thanks to her inability to control her
> > temper.
> >
> > Maior continuing in this manner makes rebutting her points so much
> > easier. One just has to sit back and watch the message vanish. I
> > consider that farce and yes I would pay to watch it - as a lesson in
> > how not to press a point.
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> > <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal
> > > >
> > > > He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having
> > thought
> >
>
>

I am in complete agreement that crude personal attacks have no place here at all. I also believe that drastic over the top outbursts and constant threats are also counter productive to the point that they, in my personal opinion, damage, and and constantly polarize. Maior, without any doubt, drastically over reacts and strikes out with verbal threats at anything she finds objectionable, almost tyrannical in her insistence that she be a focal point. I have characterized it almost like a child who must get her way and if not she will begin actually threatening and accusing. This in turn provokes people who are either simply exhausted with this behavior or angered with the constant threats and tantrums to the point that they in turn begin to sink into insulting juvenile verbal diarrhea that fills our in boxes. Bad blood is of course created and then these parties no longer feel that a pax can be reached because it obvious to so many (even new members) that this is a vicious cyc!
le that repeats itself.... I have not been here long but I can say that a good majority of the time I have been here there has been one conflict or another having to be dealt with and those of us that are NOT here to read constant bickering get exhausted, frustrated, and like me, seriously consider if this group is worth having to erase 30 messages of bickering every time they read their mail. This is a republic not mob rules, there MUST be standards of behaviour, those who know when enough is enough and can take action when such behavior, not just from one but many are harming this lists ability to move forward in a unified peaceful manner.

One disagrees and finds fault with something, well thats okay. One is passionate about it? No problem! Passion is great. One wants to be heard and a chance to put forth ones arguments that may indeed be valid but in the end, I have never once been made to feel like this is a person I should in any way give my support to because I cannot get past the over the top, aggressive, threatening way these arguments are put forth...any good idea put forth is clouded by baseless threats and ridiculous accusations and portents of disaster and ruin. It is good that one has the time and the inclination and cares so much (assuming it is not just desperate for attention and gets it the easiest way, through reaction to outburst and threats) but it goes past simple debate of an issue and attempt to make a reasonable argument and win people over with a passionate plea or a reasonable logical argument. Maior so quickly jumps into absurd (and yes, they are absurd, I cannot think of anything else!
to call it) threats of treason, lawsuits, uprisings, and base accusations within fiery rhetoric. Would the Roman Republican senate indeed put up with such drastic treats and shrug them off as it just being her style of debate? Would not threats to harm the republic (like threatening to sue Nova Roma being one of many)  time and again not be paramount to treason against the state (and this very real organization that she is a member of)  in and of itself. Although it seems ridiculous to think that a person would actual sue over such things or make threats against a group she willing joins, the seriousness in which she suggest this is, and if indeed she were to pursue this (though it is without doubt a hollow threat) would damage this group and is antagonistic in the extreme and working against any possible harmony.

Where is the point when a person stops being passionate and starts simply being a public nuisance and a constant problem to the point of actually damaging the ability of this list to function in a peaceful orderly manner, to the point that people just become exhausted and tired of dealing with it? They no longer want to deal with such absurd childish attacks and rhetoric. Shouldn't we at least demand a modicum of respect toward fellow members and Nova Roma as a group of people who are here of their own accord, most likely NOT to be bombarded buy this and should those elected officials be force to deal with her and her threats and disrespectful accusations constantly? If so, I feel for them and would understand why there were not even enough people to fill every elected post...who would voluntarily put themselves in a  position to constantly have to deal with such indignant tantrums and threats and the chaos they cause.

 I did not join this group to read drama and bickering. I will not threaten to leave this place I just found not long ago, but I will say the potential of the place is severely hampered but the need to constantly address these outbursts, this is NOT a place for adults and young people alike to learn and grow within a beneficial environment of mutual respect. It is truly a shame that a group of intelligent adults cannot come together and work towards  a common goal and instead post endless missives that bite, attack, accuse, and squander the potential of making this group a home for like minded individuals...I am beginning to think this group is not like minded at all and everyone's goal here is NOT to work together for common goals...I have to say that I have become very disillusioned with what I thought I was joining and I truly hope for the sake of all that common sense prevails here. This group offers great things and HAS accomplished much, and should allow such things to!
disrupt that great potential. I have said it before, but this time I mean it, I will not give another seconds thought to drama and discord.

Appius Claudius Drusus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_minucia_tiberia"
<pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...> wrote:

>
> ---Salve Lucreti Agricolae et Salvete Omnes:
>
> What a lovely post.
>
> My sincere thanks.
>
> Pompeia
>

No thanks are needed, Consul. I only wrote the truth, as I have
experienced it this year.

optime vale

Agricola

>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
> >
> > I think extraordinary times often call for extraordinary measures.
> We
> > are living in extraordinary times, but I think good ones, and ones
> > that do not call for a disruption of our ancient ways. Let me
> explain
> > why I think we are living in good times.
> >
> > This year, for the first time in years, we have minted a coin. Not
> > only that, but they are selling well, showing their popularity. I
> can
> > tell you now that they regularly sell on eBay for ten times their
> face
> > value! This means that for the first time collectors are taking
> > serious interest in our coins. This is a good thing.
> >
> > This year, for the first time in years, we have seen a growth in
> the
> > Macellum. Two wonderful new vendors have been added in the last few
> > weeks, in addition to those that were added earlier in the year.
> The
> > Macellum is up to date now for the first time in years, available
> in
> > multiple languages and growing still. The commercial life of Nova
> Roma
> > has never been healthier.
> >
> > This year, for the first time in years, we have seen substantial
> new
> > contributions to our web site. This is of course due to the switch
> to
> > the wiki system. Citizens are still learning their wiki skills, and
> > the rate of contributions is constantly increasing. Next year is
> set
> > to be far better still.
> >
> > This year, for the first time ever we have a podcast. Anyone who
> > thinks it should release more frequently probably does not
> understand
> > the technical and logistical hurdles that are being overcome.
> Expect
> > much more in the coming year, but this year was a good start.
> >
> > This year the Conventus in Europa continued to bring citizens
> together
> > in impressive numbers. I sorely regret not attending this year
> (look
> > at the wiki page!) and I'm looking forward to the chance to join
> next
> > year in Hispania.
> >
> > This year saw an end to the churning of memberships. The citizen
> test
> > prevents the frivolous from inflating our numbers and things like
> the
> > New Roman list and the newer, gentler tone here help us to retain
> new
> > citizens in larger numbers.
> >
> > This year, the cultus deorum is stronger than ever. A pontifex has
> > recently agreed here with my assesment that the number of physical
> > shrines is growing and that citizens are participating in public
> > rituals in increasing numbers. If all goes well I myself might be
> able
> > to dedicate a public shrine in Asia Orientalis, perhaps the first
> one
> > to the Dei Romae in this part of the world.
> >
> > This year has greater political security and stability than in the
> > past. Our elections have gone ahead in a manner far superior to the
> > crisis of last year. We still have open slots, but that is no
> crisis
> > at all. A real danger to the state was averted, with controversy,
> > true, but with no serious damage to the state.
> >
> > If we are off track, I cannot imagine what other track we should
> be on.
> >
> > Extraordinary measures are not needed to strengthen the pax
> deorum. If
> > prayers must be offered, if sacrifices must be made, if rituals
> must
> > be performed, then let it bee done according to the ancient ways.
> Let
> > us not disrupt a system in order to set it right.
> >
> > Let physical shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it.
> Let
> > virtual shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > prayers be written and posted. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> Concordia
> > be honored, Nothing now prevents it. Let the wiki be used as a tool
> > for enlightenment and instruction. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > rituals be performed to all the gods. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > lararia be built. Nothing now prevents it.
> >
> > Let the life of Nova Roma continue in the well-balanced way of our
> > ancestors. Let nothing prevent it.
> >
> > optime valete in pace deorum.
> >
>

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus fl Cer SPD

Perhaps it is merely the length of time involved in the decretum that
Piscinus Flamen et Tribune objects to because it would significantly interfere with
the administration of Nova Roma.
Perhaps it would be better to limit the period covered by the De Decreto
Pontificum de Reparando to December 11-16; the day after the Tribunes are
installed and the beginning of Saturnalia.
Personally the idea behind the decretum is good and I do not believe that
Scaurus Pontifex had a political agenda when he proposed it. He has been
absent from NR for a while due to personal and health issues and may not have
realized how his proposal would be greeted by Piscinus.
It would not have hurt if Piscinus Flamen had proposed a shorter period for
the decretum in the CP himself before he issued his intercessio. Tempers are
likely to be a bit frayed following the election season and proposals like
that made by Scaurus are common during this time.

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aurelianus Fausto salve.

Perhaps you should have made this inquiry privately to the Pontifex Maximus
and Scaurus Pontifex before you blasted it on the ML.
The deliberations of the CP are restricted to the membership of the college
and a few Senators who are observing our proceedings. Some of your questions
are improper and I believe you should withdraw them publicly so you might
redirect them privately. For a person who is ran for Consul, your post smacks
of disrespect for the Collegium Pontificum and shows ignorance of the
procedures that govern our organization.
If you are elected Consul, I certainly hope you will practice more
moderation and civil discourse.

Vadite in pace Cereris.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aurelianus Marino sal.

I humbly apologize to you. My last post addressed to you was meant to be
private.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faustus,

For someone who invokes Dii Immortales, you seem to be woefully short on
understanding. The decretum proposed by Scaurus Pontifex was initially for a
period of only 45 days. Where are you getting the idea that it is supposed to
last for an entire year?
I understand that there may be some communications problems caused by the
manner in which many Nova Romans in the N. American continent frame their
messages, but you should ask questions before leaping on one Pontifex as if he is
plotting the overthrow of the administration of Nova Roma while praising a
Tribume for taking a premature action that is essentially null & void.

Aurelianus fl Cer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aurelianus Marino sal.

Did your arrangement with the Pontifex Maximus to be a Senatorial observer
to the deliberations of the CP include your option to report its private
deliberations on the mainlist and comment on your opinions of the state of the CP?
This is a yes or no question.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:

>
> Would you also agree that certain styles are so outlandish and

drastic that they, as well, are totally out of place here.

>

Salve!

No I wouldn't agree with that, prima facie. The reason is this: as an
international organization we must open the doors wide to many styles.
As a language teacher working in an international setting I know how
difficult it is sometimes to communicate across cultural boundries. It
is essential if we are to survive, though, because central to our
message is that Romanitas is available for all. Anyone can work
towards Roman ideals, not just a certain kind of person.

"Drastic" and "outlandish" are subjective terms. To take an extreme
example, in the past year we had a citizen who seemed to believe it
outlandish that women and persons of color vote. I find those terms
quite unhelpful.

It is a good exercise, I think, to try to look past style (no matter
how outlandish it might seem) and find the substance of the message.
It is also a good thing to write in private to people to try to reach
a greater understanding of them. In my case, this has led to some
surprising new friendships.

Finally, sometimes people who are drastic and outlandish are right. I
would feel a fool indeed if I had opposed an idea that was put in
"outlandish" terms that upon later, close inspection turned out to be
true.

Now this is not to say that every "drastic and outlandish" statement
is true, or even valuable. I am saying that it is more important to
judge the truth value of a statement than to let oneself become all
worked up over differences of style.

I hope I put that clearly.

optime vale in pace deorum!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
>
> Would you also agree that certain styles are so outlandish and
drastic that they, as well, are totally out of place here.
>
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:06:44 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote
> > Agricola Caesari sal
> >
> > What I wrote was about debate and accepting different styles thereof,
> > but you answered still talking about Maior. It is your right, I
> > suppose, to do so, and I thank you for your reply.
> >
> > I am beginning to think, however, that there are better things to
> > discuss than Marca Hortensia Maior. Enough other people have mentioned
> > her positive contributions, so I think that should not be an issue I
> > must speak to.
> >
> > We have all kinds of people here, with many styles, and I still think
> > we have to allow for that. I remain of the opinion that posts saying
> > "Citizen X has a style I do not like, so we should ignore citizen X"
> > are wholly out of place here, or anywhere that free participation is
> > encouraged. I am sure we can agree on that.
> >
> > optime vale in pace deorum!
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Caesar Agricolae sal.
> > >
> > > Maior's right's are not under threat. Of course many of us think
that
> > > at various times the points that she could make get lost in the
> > > ludicrous excesses of language. However that is her right,
subject to
> > > the praetorian edicts.
> > >
> > > Maior doesn't debate, by any normally accepted sense of the word. I
> > > am quite serious - I want Maior to continue. Her points in this
case
> > > are, in my opinion, invalid and wide of the mark. The longer
that she
> > > beats her drum and the more excessive the language the more that
> > > people will be able to judge the inherent worth of the message.
Maior
> > > usually loses these exchanges thanks to her inability to control
her
> > > temper.
> > >
> > > Maior continuing in this manner makes rebutting her points so much
> > > easier. One just has to sit back and watch the message vanish. I
> > > consider that farce and yes I would pay to watch it - as a
lesson in
> > > how not to press a point.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> > > <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > > > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal
> > > > >
> > > > > He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having
> > > thought
> > >
> >
> >
>
> I am in complete agreement that crude personal attacks have no place
here at all. I also believe that drastic over the top outbursts
and constant threats are also counter productive to the point that
they, in my personal opinion, damage, and and constantly polarize.
Maior, without any doubt, drastically over reacts and strikes out with
verbal threats at anything she finds objectionable, almost tyrannical
in her insistence that she be a focal point. I have characterized it
almost like a child who must get her way and if not she will begin
actually threatening and accusing. This in turn provokes people who
are either simply exhausted with this behavior or angered with the
constant threats and tantrums to the point that they in turn begin to
sink into insulting juvenile verbal diarrhea that fills our in boxes.
Bad blood is of course created and then these parties no longer feel
that a pax can be reached because it obvious to so many (even new
members) that this is a vicious cyc!
> le that repeats itself.... I have not been here long but I can say
that a good majority of the time I have been here there has been one
conflict or another having to be dealt with and those of us that are
NOT here to read constant bickering get exhausted, frustrated, and
like me, seriously consider if this group is worth having to erase 30
messages of bickering every time they read their mail. This is a
republic not mob rules, there MUST be standards of behaviour, those
who know when enough is enough and can take action when such behavior,
not just from one but many are harming this lists ability to move
forward in a unified peaceful manner.
>
> One disagrees and finds fault with something, well thats okay. One
is passionate about it? No problem! Passion is great. One wants to be
heard and a chance to put forth ones arguments that may indeed be
valid but in the end, I have never once been made to feel like this is
a person I should in any way give my support to because I cannot get
past the over the top, aggressive, threatening way these arguments are
put forth...any good idea put forth is clouded by baseless threats and
ridiculous accusations and portents of disaster and ruin. It is good
that one has the time and the inclination and cares so much (assuming
it is not just desperate for attention and gets it the easiest way,
through reaction to outburst and threats) but it goes past simple
debate of an issue and attempt to make a reasonable argument and win
people over with a passionate plea or a reasonable logical
argument. Maior so quickly jumps into absurd (and yes, they are
absurd, I cannot think of anything else!
> to call it) threats of treason, lawsuits, uprisings, and base
accusations within fiery rhetoric. Would the Roman Republican senate
indeed put up with such drastic treats and shrug them off as it just
being her style of debate? Would not threats to harm the republic
(like threatening to sue Nova Roma being one of many) time and again
not be paramount to treason against the state (and this very real
organization that she is a member of) in and of itself. Although it
seems ridiculous to think that a person would actual sue over such
things or make threats against a group she willing joins, the
seriousness in which she suggest this is, and if indeed she were to
pursue this (though it is without doubt a hollow threat) would damage
this group and is antagonistic in the extreme and working against any
possible harmony.
>
> Where is the point when a person stops being passionate and starts
simply being a public nuisance and a constant problem to the point of
actually damaging the ability of this list to function in a peaceful
orderly manner, to the point that people just become exhausted and
tired of dealing with it? They no longer want to deal with such absurd
childish attacks and rhetoric. Shouldn't we at least demand a modicum
of respect toward fellow members and Nova Roma as a group of people
who are here of their own accord, most likely NOT to be bombarded buy
this and should those elected officials be force to deal with her and
her threats and disrespectful accusations constantly? If so, I feel
for them and would understand why there were not even enough people to
fill every elected post...who would voluntarily put themselves in a
position to constantly have to deal with such indignant tantrums and
threats and the chaos they cause.
>
> I did not join this group to read drama and bickering. I will not
threaten to leave this place I just found not long ago, but I will say
the potential of the place is severely hampered but the need to
constantly address these outbursts, this is NOT a place for adults and
young people alike to learn and grow within a beneficial environment
of mutual respect. It is truly a shame that a group of intelligent
adults cannot come together and work towards a common goal and
instead post endless missives that bite, attack, accuse, and squander
the potential of making this group a home for like minded
individuals...I am beginning to think this group is not like minded at
all and everyone's goal here is NOT to work together for common
goals...I have to say that I have become very disillusioned with what
I thought I was joining and I truly hope for the sake of all that
common sense prevails here. This group offers great things and HAS
accomplished much, and should allow such things to!
> disrupt that great potential. I have said it before, but this time
I mean it, I will not give another seconds thought to drama and discord.
>
> Appius Claudius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus M. Hortensia Maior sal.

Domina, no tyrannical actions have been formally approved by the CP. It is
still under discussion.

Let me pose a few questions about your belief that the proposed reforms of
the Four Sacred Colleges will bring us into line with more historical Roman
practices?

Do you believe that it will improve Nova Roma to continue to have Fetiales?
This priesthood acted as the ambassadors and treaty makers in Old Rome.
Since Nova Roma has no diplomatic ties to other nations nor do we make war on
anyone (apart from ourselves), what is the purpose of keeping Fetiales?

The number of Pontiffs proposed by the reform is only historical for a
certain period in Roman history. At other times there were more and earlier there
were less. How will the number of pontiffs proposed in the current reform
make us any more Roman or historically correct?

The College of Epulones were originally set up to assist with the
administration of ludi and certain public feasts honoring Dii Immortales and Dii
Consentes. Nova Roma has no public feasts honoring the Gods and the ludi are
handled by the aediles and (in certain cases) the praetores. How will the
Epulones bring us into a more historical or traditional Romanitas?

These are not rhetorical questions. I want you to answer them and explain
your reasoning.

Also, Piscinus Tribunus acted prematurely since the CP has not issued a
decretum yet. Furthermore, two tribunes have already nullified his intercessio.
Thus, your post is inflaming the populace to civil and sacred disobedience
to the sacrosanctity of the Tribunal power. In Old Rome, a Pleb who did not
fulfill their oath to protect the sacrosanctity of the Tribunes could be
denied water and fire. Count your blessings that Nova Roma can impose no such
historically accurate Roman punishment on you.

Domina, your constant sniping and nitpicking at individuals in Nova Roma you
do not like or understand is beginning to remind me of another citizen from
my province. Eventually, he was deprived of all his offices and was
ostracized by most of the citizenship. I fear the same fate awaits you if you do not
learn to balance your black bile with more healthy humors.

Vadite in pace Cereris.





M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
how can we permit out ancient rights to be usurped by this
tyrannical action!

I ask all plebs to rise up & refuse to accept any of this Decretum!
& assert our ancient rights. And I call upon the tribunes to refuse
to accept this to a man, lest they be called enemies to freedom.

This is utterly Un-Roman & Un-historical. And yes, it is
political - to prevent the reform of the Collegium Pontificium back
to it's historical Republican roots where it gave advice & set the
calender.

To interfere in voting for 45 days is absolutely unhistorical
and absurd. Let Scaurus wear sackcloth & ashes and go into the
desert if he wishes to descend into Superstitio. This is not
religiousus.
what times we live in to see our rights trampled!
M. Hortensia



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scaurus,

I think it is something in the water in South Carolina. We had a whole
bunch of persons from there get very uppity and acted irrationally back around
1860 CE over something they THOUGHT might happen if someone was elected to
public office. It got very messy down in the territory that now encompasses
America Austrorientalis and took about four years of constant struggle to finally
get those persons back in line. One fellow named Ruffin got so upset that
when the rest of the state finally settled down, he blew his brains out.
If I didn't know better, I'd say a certain Nova Roman might be related to
Mr. Ruffin. Perhaps Nova Roma should ship some bottled water to South Carolina.

Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry, my post somehow became split between by first sentance and your post here is the rest inc ase you missed it:

I am in complete agreement that crude personal attacks have no place here at all. I also believe that drastic over the top outbursts and constant threats are also counter productive to the point that they, in my personal opinion, damage, and and constantly polarize. Maior, without any doubt, drastically over reacts and strikes out with verbal threats at anything she finds objectionable, almost tyrannical in her insistence that she be a focal point. I have characterized it almost like a child who must get her way and if not she will begin actually threatening and accusing. This in turn provokes people who are either simply exhausted with this behavior or angered with the constant threats and tantrums to the point that they in turn begin to sink into insulting juvenile verbal diarrhea that fills our in boxes. Bad blood is of course created and then these parties no longer feel that a pax can be reached because it obvious to so many (even new members) that this is a vicious cyc!
le that repeats itself.... I have not been here long but I can say that a good majority of the time I have been here there has been one conflict or another having to be dealt with and those of us that are NOT here to read constant bickering get exhausted, frustrated, and like me, seriously consider if this group is worth having to erase 30 messages of bickering every time they read their mail. This is a republic not mob rules, there MUST be standards of behaviour, those who know when enough is enough and can take action when such behavior, not just from one but many are harming this lists ability to move forward in a unified peaceful manner.

One disagrees and finds fault with something, well thats okay. One is passionate about it? No problem! Passion is great. One wants to be heard and a chance to put forth ones arguments that may indeed be valid but in the end, I have never once been made to feel like this is a person I should in any way give my support to because I cannot get past the over the top, aggressive, threatening way these arguments are put forth...any good idea put forth is clouded by baseless threats and ridiculous accusations and portents of disaster and ruin. It is good that one has the time and the inclination and cares so much (assuming it is not just desperate for attention and gets it the easiest way, through reaction to outburst and threats) but it goes past simple debate of an issue and attempt to make a reasonable argument and win people over with a passionate plea or a reasonable logical argument. Maior so quickly jumps into absurd (and yes, they are absurd, I cannot think of anything else!
to call it) threats of treason, lawsuits, uprisings, and base accusations within fiery rhetoric. Would the Roman Republican senate indeed put up with such drastic treats and shrug them off as it just being her style of debate? Would not threats to harm the republic (like threatening to sue Nova Roma being one of many)  time and again not be paramount to treason against the state (and this very real organization that she is a member of)  in and of itself. Although it seems ridiculous to think that a person would actual sue over such things or make threats against a group she willing joins, the seriousness in which she suggest this is, and if indeed she were to pursue this (though it is without doubt a hollow threat) would damage this group and is antagonistic in the extreme and working against any possible harmony.

Where is the point when a person stops being passionate and starts simply being a public nuisance and a constant problem to the point of actually damaging the ability of this list to function in a peaceful orderly manner, to the point that people just become exhausted and tired of dealing with it? They no longer want to deal with such absurd childish attacks and rhetoric. Shouldn't we at least demand a modicum of respect toward fellow members and Nova Roma as a group of people who are here of their own accord, most likely NOT to be bombarded buy this and should those elected officials be force to deal with her and her threats and disrespectful accusations constantly? If so, I feel for them and would understand why there were not even enough people to fill every elected post...who would voluntarily put themselves in a  position to constantly have to deal with such indignant tantrums and threats and the chaos they cause.

 I did not join this group to read drama and bickering. I will not threaten to leave this place I just found not long ago, but I will say the potential of the place is severely hampered but the need to constantly address these outbursts, this is NOT a place for adults and young people alike to learn and grow within a beneficial environment of mutual respect. It is truly a shame that a group of intelligent adults cannot come together and work towards  a common goal and instead post endless missives that bite, attack, accuse, and squander the potential of making this group a home for like minded individuals...I am beginning to think this group is not like minded at all and everyone's goal here is NOT to work together for common goals...I have to say that I have become very disillusioned with what I thought I was joining and I truly hope for the sake of all that common sense prevails here. This group offers great things and HAS accomplished much, and should allow such things to!
disrupt that great potential. I have said it before, but this time I mean it, I will not give another seconds thought to drama and discord.

Appius Claudius Drusus

I do not think those terms are as subjective as you say, But I guess each person has his or her own level of just so much that they will tolerate and what they are here for. I tend to take the message as a whole and not try to fish for a diamond nestled in dung.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:33:20 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
> >
> > Would you also agree that certain styles are so outlandish and
> drastic that they, as well, are totally out of place here.
> >
>
> Salve!
>
> No I wouldn't agree with that, prima facie. The reason is this: as an
> international organization we must open the doors wide to many styles.
> As a language teacher working in an international setting I know how
> difficult it is sometimes to communicate across cultural boundries. It
> is essential if we are to survive, though, because central to our
> message is that Romanitas is available for all. Anyone can work
> towards Roman ideals, not just a certain kind of person.
>
> "Drastic" and "outlandish" are subjective terms. To take an extreme
> example, in the past year we had a citizen who seemed to believe it
> outlandish that women and persons of color vote. I find those terms
> quite unhelpful.
>
> It is a good exercise, I think, to try to look past style (no matter
> how outlandish it might seem) and find the substance of the message.
> It is also a good thing to write in private to people to try to reach
> a greater understanding of them. In my case, this has led to some
> surprising new friendships.
>
> Finally, sometimes people who are drastic and outlandish are right. I
> would feel a fool indeed if I had opposed an idea that was put in
> "outlandish" terms that upon later, close inspection turned out to be
> true.
>
> Now this is not to say that every "drastic and outlandish" statement
> is true, or even valuable. I am saying that it is more important to
> judge the truth value of a statement than to let oneself become all
> worked up over differences of style.
>
> I hope I put that clearly.
>
> optime vale in pace deorum!
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
> >
> > Would you also agree that certain styles are so outlandish and
> drastic that they, as well, are totally out of place here.
> >
> > On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:06:44 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote
> > > Agricola Caesari sal
> > >
> > > What I wrote was about debate and accepting different styles thereof,
> > > but you answered still talking about Maior. It is your right, I
> > > suppose, to do so, and I thank you for your reply.
> > >
> > > I am beginning to think, however, that there are better things to
> > > discuss than Marca Hortensia Maior. Enough other people have mentioned
> > > her positive contributions, so I think that should not be an issue I
> > > must speak to.
> > >
> > > We have all kinds of people here, with many styles, and I still think
> > > we have to allow for that. I remain of the opinion that posts saying
> > > "Citizen X has a style I do not like, so we should ignore citizen X"
> > > are wholly out of place here, or anywhere that free participation is
> > > encouraged. I am sure we can agree on that.
> > >
> > > optime vale in pace deorum!
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Caesar Agricolae sal.
> > > >
> > > > Maior's right's are not under threat. Of course many of us think
> that
> > > > at various times the points that she could make get lost in the
> > > > ludicrous excesses of language. However that is her right,
> subject to
> > > > the praetorian edicts.
> > > >
> > > > Maior doesn't debate, by any normally accepted sense of the word. I
> > > > am quite serious - I want Maior to continue. Her points in this
> case
> > > > are, in my opinion, invalid and wide of the mark. The longer
> that she
> > > > beats her drum and the more excessive the language the more that
> > > > people will be able to judge the inherent worth of the message.
> Maior
> > > > usually loses these exchanges thanks to her inability to control
> her
> > > > temper.
> > > >
> > > > Maior continuing in this manner makes rebutting her points so much
> > > > easier. One just has to sit back and watch the message vanish. I
> > > > consider that farce and yes I would pay to watch it - as a
> lesson in
> > > > how not to press a point.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> > > > <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
> > > > > <gn_iulius_caesar@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cn. Iulius T. Minicio sal
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He was probably trying to save our collective sanity. Having
> > > > thought
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I am in complete agreement that crude personal attacks have no place
> here at all. I also believe that drastic over the top outbursts
> and constant threats are also counter productive to the point that
> they, in my personal opinion, damage, and and constantly polarize.
> Maior, without any doubt, drastically over reacts and strikes out with
> verbal threats at anything she finds objectionable, almost tyrannical
> in her insistence that she be a focal point. I have characterized it
> almost like a child who must get her way and if not she will begin
> actually threatening and accusing. This in turn provokes people who
> are either simply exhausted with this behavior or angered with the
> constant threats and tantrums to the point that they in turn begin to
> sink into insulting juvenile verbal diarrhea that fills our in boxes.
> Bad blood is of course created and then these parties no longer feel
> that a pax can be reached because it obvious to so many (even new
> members) that this is a vicious cyc!
> > le that repeats itself.... I have not been here long but I can say
> that a good majority of the time I have been here there has been one
> conflict or another having to be dealt with and those of us that are
> NOT here to read constant bickering get exhausted, frustrated, and
> like me, seriously consider if this group is worth having to erase 30
> messages of bickering every time they read their mail. This is a
> republic not mob rules, there MUST be standards of behaviour, those
> who know when enough is enough and can take action when such behavior,
> not just from one but many are harming this lists ability to move
> forward in a unified peaceful manner.
> >
> > One disagrees and finds fault with something, well thats okay. One
> is passionate about it? No problem! Passion is great. One wants to be
> heard and a chance to put forth ones arguments that may indeed be
> valid but in the end, I have never once been made to feel like this is
> a person I should in any way give my support to because I cannot get
> past the over the top, aggressive, threatening way these arguments are
> put forth...any good idea put forth is clouded by baseless threats and
> ridiculous accusations and portents of disaster and ruin. It is good
> that one has the time and the inclination and cares so much (assuming
> it is not just desperate for attention and gets it the easiest way,
> through reaction to outburst and threats) but it goes past simple
> debate of an issue and attempt to make a reasonable argument and win
> people over with a passionate plea or a reasonable logical
> argument. Maior so quickly jumps into absurd (and yes, they are
> absurd, I cannot think of anything else!
> > to call it) threats of treason, lawsuits, uprisings, and base
> accusations within fiery rhetoric. Would the Roman Republican senate
> indeed put up with such drastic treats and shrug them off as it just
> being her style of debate? Would not threats to harm the republic
> (like threatening to sue Nova Roma being one of many) time and again
> not be paramount to treason against the state (and this very real
> organization that she is a member of) in and of itself. Although it
> seems ridiculous to think that a person would actual sue over such
> things or make threats against a group she willing joins, the
> seriousness in which she suggest this is, and if indeed she were to
> pursue this (though it is without doubt a hollow threat) would damage
> this group and is antagonistic in the extreme and working against any
> possible harmony.
> >
> > Where is the point when a person stops being passionate and starts
> simply being a public nuisance and a constant problem to the point of
> actually damaging the ability of this list to function in a peaceful
> orderly manner, to the point that people just become exhausted and
> tired of dealing with it? They no longer want to deal with such absurd
> childish attacks and rhetoric. Shouldn't we at least demand a modicum
> of respect toward fellow members and Nova Roma as a group of people
> who are here of their own accord, most likely NOT to be bombarded buy
> this and should those elected officials be force to deal with her and
> her threats and disrespectful accusations constantly? If so, I feel
> for them and would understand why there were not even enough people to
> fill every elected post...who would voluntarily put themselves in a
> position to constantly have to deal with such indignant tantrums and
> threats and the chaos they cause.
> >
> > I did not join this group to read drama and bickering. I will not
> threaten to leave this place I just found not long ago, but I will say
> the potential of the place is severely hampered but the need to
> constantly address these outbursts, this is NOT a place for adults and
> young people alike to learn and grow within a beneficial environment
> of mutual respect. It is truly a shame that a group of intelligent
> adults cannot come together and work towards a common goal and
> instead post endless missives that bite, attack, accuse, and squander
> the potential of making this group a home for like minded
> individuals...I am beginning to think this group is not like minded at
> all and everyone's goal here is NOT to work together for common
> goals...I have to say that I have become very disillusioned with what
> I thought I was joining and I truly hope for the sake of all that
> common sense prevails here. This group offers great things and HAS
> accomplished much, and should allow such things to!
> > disrupt that great potential. I have said it before, but this time
> I mean it, I will not give another seconds thought to drama and discord.
> >
> > Appius Claudius Drusus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aurelianus Maior sal.

Actually, by inflaming the Plebs to disregard the actions of two Tribunes
who have overwritten Piscinus' intercessio, you are violating the sacrosanctity
of the Tribunes. This sacrosanctity was derived from the Plebeian
associations with the Aede of Ceres. As flamen Cerialis, I do not believe that you
speak for the Aede of Ceres or the flamen Cerialis or the public priestesses of
Ceres of the ritus Graecae.

In short, you are seriously trying the patience of the Republic with your
inane beliefs and fallacies about a decretum that is still being discussed in
the CP.

Vadite in pace Cereris, please. Try some watered wine, eat some bread,
avoid foods which fire the blood, drink a ptisan of Roman chamomile and catnip,
go to the thermae, just unwind for the Love of the Immortal Gods!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caesar Agricolae sal.

I can most certainly agree with your sentiment about not ignoring a
person based on their style of posting, and I would add also their
grasp of language and grammar when posting in English. Their are
many citizens, for whom English is a second (or maybe even third)
language, whose grasp of both is infinitely better than many who
have it as their first. We should only judge a post on its relevance
and content, or the lack of one or both.



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> Agricola Caesari sal
>
> What I wrote was about debate and accepting different styles

thereof,

> but you answered still talking about Maior. It is your right, I
> suppose, to do so, and I thank you for your reply.
>
> I am beginning to think, however, that there are better things to
> discuss than Marca Hortensia Maior. Enough other people have

mentioned

Salve,

Not all the water in SC is bad. Look at me I'm originally from
Walhalla, SC(of course I've lived the last 26 years in KS) I've
turned out just fine. Now I'm just waiting for the posting of the
result's for Tribune(with only four of us running it should be a
foregone decision).

Vale,
Quintus Servilius Priscus

On Nov 18, 2006, at 1:41 AM, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

Scaurus,

I think it is something in the water in South Carolina. We had a whole
bunch of persons from there get very uppity and acted irrationally
back around
1860 CE over something they THOUGHT might happen if someone was
elected to
public office. It got very messy down in the territory that now
encompasses
America Austrorientalis and took about four years of constant
struggle to finally
get those persons back in line. One fellow named Ruffin got so
upset that
when the rest of the state finally settled down, he blew his brains
out.
If I didn't know better, I'd say a certain Nova Roman might be
related to
Mr. Ruffin. Perhaps Nova Roma should ship some bottled water to
South Carolina.

Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

As of late I have been learning how to cast in sand. I firend asked me to explaint he process and since it is such an easy process in this basic form I thought I would also share the information here for people who might want to make their own charms, coins, or medallions:

You will need:

1. Metal you can melt...pewter melts very easy at a lower temp (around 600) so I would start with that, but you can move on to silver but you will need a MUCH hotter heat source. You will need an iron container to melt your metal and a good ladle to scoop it out for pouring. I just used a camping stove, a small iron bowl and a small steel ladle.

2. 2 sturdy wooden frames (like picture frames but make sure they are sturdy) I simply cut some hard wood and used those flat metal joins. Hinge your two frame together.

3. You will need very fine grained sand mixed with a bit of oil or similar liquid that will allow the sand to pack and not just spill loose. Some art supply places might have this already mixed or you can buy it online...you can also buy metal online as well.

4. A bowl with water and some large tweezers.

5. A mallet

6. Something hard and flat...I used a a small peice of thin flat board a bit wider than the width of my frame.

7. At least 2 clamps that can clamp your 2 frames together, 3 is probably better.

8. a small cylindrical wooden dowel no thicker than a pencil. Another very thin one. You can buy this at a hardware store in many different sizes.

This is really all you need.

Step 1...get your metal in the bowl over the flame and start it melting...you can keep the flame on it and it will stay in liquid form...if you are using pewter, make sure you are using lead free.

Step 2...lay your frames out and scoop your sand into them into it fills the fame and is piled up like and anthill (your frame should NOT have a back or front, just the frame)

Step 3...take your mallet and pound the sand into the frames until it is stuck in the frame very tight. pound it hard, pack it until it wont pack any lower (though when you are done pounding the sand level should not be below the frame edge).

Step 4...Take your flat small thin board and run it across the top of the frames scraping off the excess sand until the level of your sand is at the level of your frame edge.

You should now have 2 hinged frames packed with sand. At this point you will want to make your impression. This is a bit tricky but if you are careful it should be no problem. For this example I will say you are making a copy of a coin or medallion.

Step 5...Take your coin or medallion and press it into the sand until you hit mid point in the thickness of the coin or medal. VERY CAREFULLY close your frames one on top of the first with the object still in it do it very carefully so you dont loose your sand, if you packed it right it shouldn't be a problem. If you packed the sand tight enough, you could be able to tap the top sand to be sure you make a good clear impression.

Step 6...open the frames. and CAREFULLY remove the coin or medal. you should have impressions in the sand on both sides. You may want to embellish...

Step 7...which ever frame will be on top when you close. Take your wooden dowel and poke a hole in your sand where it just barely cuts into your impression...just the outer edge of the hole should touch the outer edge of the impression...do the same on the other side of the impression with the thin one in the same way on the SAME frame as the other...Thus you should have two holes poked through to the top of your sand on one frame The thicker hole will be where you pour your metal, the thin one is for air to escape.

Step 8... Now just close the frames and clamp them shut on 2-3 sides...take your ladle and scoop out some of the molten metal and carefully pour it into the larger hole...try to gauge the amount, enough to fill your impression. there should probably be enough to start coming up the air hole and you should see it in your pour hole...you have poured enough.

Now the metal will harden very quickly but give it a few minutes....pour it quickly but carefully, dont worry if you spill a bit on the stop of the sand, you can always just get the spill when it hardens and put it back in your pot.

after few minutes your metal will be hardened without doubt and you can knock the sand out of your frames. You cannot use the same impression twice because of the metal in the pour and air holes will mess up the sand as you pull out your end product..this is certain. You will find your coin or medal in the sand with a bit of metal coming off of it from the air and pour tubes....dont touch it with your hand, it will still probably be hot...pick it out of the sand with your tweezers and drop it in your water.

Once it is cool, Clip off the metal left from the pour and air tube and sand down any nub left over or any seams. You can polish it and you should have a rather nice little reproduction.

Now you can also make your own designs in self hardening clay or some other substance to make original designs.

This is the most BASIC way of making a simple sand casting. There are other more advance ways to cast more complicated forms which I plan to try yet I am, right now, having fun with this method right now...

Hope this helps and if you have any question feel free to ask.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caesar Agricolae sal.

I think I just proved my own point <lol> "their" should be "there" of
course ;)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Iulius Caesar"
<gn_iulius_caesar@...> wrote:

>
> Caesar Agricolae sal.
>
> I can most certainly agree with your sentiment about not ignoring a
> person based on their style of posting, and I would add also their

I did a bit of sandcasting in my college days. Mostly aluminum with some
attempts at copper. I found that the styrofoam original and packing the sand
properly were the most important part of the process to insure a minimum of
hand finishing the pieces.

I have considered talking to some one about making some fired clay pendants
with the corn heads and sickle of Ceres or using the astronomical symbol for
Ceres to be sold at public events. Perhaps we should talk soon.

I passed on a recommendation to Tb. Galerius Paulinus, one of the
Consul-Elects, about asking for your help on a new trifold brochure for NR that would
have updated information and leave space for individual
groups/provinces/sodalites to place a printed sticker with more information. I believe he is going
to talk to the other Consul-Elect about it soon and try to work with you to
have it ready by January.

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aurelianus Priscus sal.

I think the effects of the water in SC may be out of your system by now.
However, while you were living in SC, did you ever have to fight down
irrational thoughts about seceeding or storming Ft. Sumter? Be honest.

Perhaps someone else will step up to the plate and run for the fifth
Tribune's spot.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

I really feel quite uncomfortable with this constant return you make
to one particular citizen. I'm not a judge and neither, I think are
you. I'm perfectly happy to discuss ideas, but this notion of two
people discussing another one, and in public, is quite distateful.

I think we share a dislike of "outbusts" in general. As I said before,
a private message here or there does wonders to calm things down. This
is a normal thing for adults to do, so it surprises me that I must so
often speak in support of such communication here.

Any citizen has a right to ignore any message or all messages from any
citizen or number of citizens. The fact that it is possible to ignore
someone is a commonplace. I support the rights of all to ignore
whatever and whomoever they wish. In fact, ignoring certain things is
sometimes the best way to deal with them, but I do not support the
idea that anyone should advocate in public that another person should
be ignored. That is striking a hurt at the notion of a free society
and open debate. It is possible to have opinions of course. But there
is a great difference between "I think X is a twit" and "X should be
ignored". Besides being bad form indeed it is insulting to anyone who
cares to come to his or her own conclusions about things. Further, it
adds nothing to the debate but only adds a secondary element of noise.

I find it difficult to respond to most of the rest of what you say,
because as I said I really feel uncomfortable debating your opinions
about another citizen. The notion that you find someone difficult to
deal with comes through clearly enough, and rehashing it adds nothing
new. The notion that the person in question adds nothing to our Res
Publica has been proven false by others.

Thank you for an interesting exchange.

optime vale in pace deorum

Agricola

I stand ready to help when you need it. All you need do is give me a bit of direction, text, and any specific content you want to see in it.

Drusus

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 03:29:50 EST, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE wrote

> I did a bit of sandcasting in my college days. Mostly aluminum with some
> attempts at copper. I found that the styrofoam original and packing the sand
> properly were the most important part of the process to insure a minimum of
> hand finishing the pieces.
>
> I have considered talking to some one about making some fired clay pendants
> with the corn heads and sickle of Ceres or using the astronomical symbol for
> Ceres to be sold at public events. Perhaps we should talk soon.
>
> I passed on a recommendation to Tb. Galerius Paulinus, one of the
> Consul-Elects, about asking for your help on a new trifold brochure for NR that would
> have updated information and leave space for individual
> groups/provinces/sodalites to place a printed sticker with more information. I believe he is going
> to talk to the other Consul-Elect about it soon and try to work with you to
> have it ready by January.
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I find it humorous that one would admonish others for attacking the outlandish way SHE ATTACKS OTHERS and Threatens this group while trying to make a point and expects people to pick through this garbage for her pearls of wisdoms. It defies logic that someone would so readily give the originator of such bile a pass and instead admonish those who simply respond in kind. This is not a matter of language. Threats of law suits, charges of treason and attempts to sew discord...in any language it is clear what she means. It is not a style of posting but a behavioral trend. Plain and simple. 

Appius Claudius Drusus

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:54:12 -0000, Gnaeus Iulius Caesar wrote

> Caesar Agricolae sal.
>
> I can most certainly agree with your sentiment about not ignoring a
> person based on their style of posting, and I would add also their
> grasp of language and grammar when posting in English. Their are
> many citizens, for whom English is a second (or maybe even third)
> language, whose grasp of both is infinitely better than many who
> have it as their first. We should only judge a post on its relevance
> and content, or the lack of one or both.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
> >
> > Agricola Caesari sal
> >
> > What I wrote was about debate and accepting different styles
> thereof,
> > but you answered still talking about Maior. It is your right, I
> > suppose, to do so, and I thank you for your reply.
> >
> > I am beginning to think, however, that there are better things to
> > discuss than Marca Hortensia Maior. Enough other people have
> mentioned
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

A timely post!

I have recently put a scare into some friends by suggesting that a
hibachi and a vacuum cleaner (blowing end) would let me achieve high
temperatures out on my balcony. It is quite a small balcony, only
about 60 or 70 centimeters in depth...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A warning though. Old pewter has a high lead content. Extreme care
should be taken when melting anything with a lot of lead, as it is
quite toxic. Organ builders, for example, take blood tests twice a
year, just to check for lead buildup from handling the pipes. New
pewter is a different animal altogether.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++


A note about coins. The Roman procedure was to cast the planchettes
(blanks) and then strike the impression into the hot planchettes.
Between casting and striking were other steps such as trimming and
weighing, so the planchettes did not go directly from casting to striking.

Now, lets talk about casting BRONZE. Is anyone interesting in casting
some fibulae?

optime valete

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
>
> As of late I have been learning how to cast in sand. I firend asked
me to explaint he process and since it is such an easy process in this
basic form I thought I would also share the information here for
people who might want to make their own charms, coins, or medallions:
>
> You will need:
>
> 1. Metal you can melt...pewter melts very easy at a lower temp
(around 600) so I would start with that, but you can move on to silver
but you will need a MUCH hotter heat source. You will need an iron
container to melt your metal and a good ladle to scoop it out for
pouring. I just used a camping stove, a small iron bowl and a small
steel ladle.
>
> 2. 2 sturdy wooden frames (like picture frames but make sure they
are sturdy) I simply cut some hard wood and used those flat metal
joins. Hinge your two frame together.
>
> 3. You will need very fine grained sand mixed with a bit of oil or
similar liquid that will allow the sand to pack and not just spill
loose. Some art supply places might have this already mixed or you can
buy it online...you can also buy metal online as well.
>
> 4. A bowl with water and some large tweezers.
>
> 5. A mallet
>
> 6. Something hard and flat...I used a a small peice of thin flat
board a bit wider than the width of my frame.
>
> 7. At least 2 clamps that can clamp your 2 frames together, 3 is
probably better.
>
> 8. a small cylindrical wooden dowel no thicker than a pencil.
Another very thin one. You can buy this at a hardware store in many
different sizes.
>
> This is really all you need.
>
> Step 1...get your metal in the bowl over the flame and start it
melting...you can keep the flame on it and it will stay in liquid
form...if you are using pewter, make sure you are using lead free.
>
> Step 2...lay your frames out and scoop your sand into them into it
fills the fame and is piled up like and anthill (your frame should NOT
have a back or front, just the frame)
>
> Step 3...take your mallet and pound the sand into the frames until
it is stuck in the frame very tight. pound it hard, pack it until it
wont pack any lower (though when you are done pounding the sand level
should not be below the frame edge).
>
> Step 4...Take your flat small thin board and run it across the top
of the frames scraping off the excess sand until the level of your
sand is at the level of your frame edge.
>
> You should now have 2 hinged frames packed with sand. At this point
you will want to make your impression. This is a bit tricky but if you
are careful it should be no problem. For this example I will say you
are making a copy of a coin or medallion.
>
> Step 5...Take your coin or medallion and press it into the sand
until you hit mid point in the thickness of the coin or medal. VERY
CAREFULLY close your frames one on top of the first with the object
still in it do it very carefully so you dont loose your sand, if you
packed it right it shouldn't be a problem. If you packed the sand
tight enough, you could be able to tap the top sand to be sure you
make a good clear impression.
>
> Step 6...open the frames. and CAREFULLY remove the coin or medal.
you should have impressions in the sand on both sides. You may want to
embellish...
>
> Step 7...which ever frame will be on top when you close. Take your
wooden dowel and poke a hole in your sand where it just barely cuts
into your impression...just the outer edge of the hole should touch
the outer edge of the impression...do the same on the other side of
the impression with the thin one in the same way on the SAME frame as
the other...Thus you should have two holes poked through to the top of
your sand on one frame The thicker hole will be where you pour your
metal, the thin one is for air to escape.
>
> Step 8... Now just close the frames and clamp them shut on 2-3
sides...take your ladle and scoop out some of the molten metal and
carefully pour it into the larger hole...try to gauge the amount,
enough to fill your impression. there should probably be enough to
start coming up the air hole and you should see it in your pour
hole...you have poured enough.
>
> Now the metal will harden very quickly but give it a few
minutes....pour it quickly but carefully, dont worry if you spill a
bit on the stop of the sand, you can always just get the spill when it
hardens and put it back in your pot.
>
> after few minutes your metal will be hardened without doubt and you
can knock the sand out of your frames. You cannot use the same
impression twice because of the metal in the pour and air holes will
mess up the sand as you pull out your end product..this is certain.
You will find your coin or medal in the sand with a bit of metal
coming off of it from the air and pour tubes....dont touch it with
your hand, it will still probably be hot...pick it out of the sand
with your tweezers and drop it in your water.
>
> Once it is cool, Clip off the metal left from the pour and air tube
and sand down any nub left over or any seams. You can polish it and
you should have a rather nice little reproduction.
>
> Now you can also make your own designs in self hardening clay or
some other substance to make original designs.
>
> This is the most BASIC way of making a simple sand casting. There
are other more advance ways to cast more complicated forms which I
plan to try yet I am, right now, having fun with this method right now...
>
> Hope this helps and if you have any question feel free to ask.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

No, but I am doing research on my SC and GA relatives to see if I can
join the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization.

Quintus Servilius Priscus

On Nov 18, 2006, at 2:23 AM, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

Aurelianus Priscus sal.

I think the effects of the water in SC may be out of your system by
now.
However, while you were living in SC, did you ever have to fight down
irrational thoughts about seceeding or storming Ft. Sumter? Be honest.

Perhaps someone else will step up to the plate and run for the fifth
Tribune's spot.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

Salve Agricola,

It is always good somebody recalls positive points: a forum is by
nature a place where feeling is running high and where people paint a
black picture of the situation; this is an explosive mixture.

We would have to keep your post in mind (me first!)

Vale;

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis,
Diribitor

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:

>
> M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I think extraordinary times often call for extraordinary measures. We
> are living in extraordinary times, but I think good ones, and ones
> that do not call for a disruption of our ancient ways. Let me explain
> why I think we are living in good times.
>
> This year, for the first time in years, we have minted a coin. Not
> only that, but they are selling well, showing their popularity. I can
> tell you now that they regularly sell on eBay for ten times their face
> value! This means that for the first time collectors are taking
> serious interest in our coins. This is a good thing.
>
> This year, for the first time in years, we have seen a growth in the
> Macellum. Two wonderful new vendors have been added in the last few
> weeks, in addition to those that were added earlier in the year. The
> Macellum is up to date now for the first time in years, available in
> multiple languages and growing still. The commercial life of Nova Roma
> has never been healthier.
>
> This year, for the first time in years, we have seen substantial new
> contributions to our web site. This is of course due to the switch to
> the wiki system. Citizens are still learning their wiki skills, and
> the rate of contributions is constantly increasing. Next year is set
> to be far better still.
>
> This year, for the first time ever we have a podcast. Anyone who
> thinks it should release more frequently probably does not understand
> the technical and logistical hurdles that are being overcome. Expect
> much more in the coming year, but this year was a good start.
>
> This year the Conventus in Europa continued to bring citizens together
> in impressive numbers. I sorely regret not attending this year (look
> at the wiki page!) and I'm looking forward to the chance to join next
> year in Hispania.
>
> This year saw an end to the churning of memberships. The citizen test
> prevents the frivolous from inflating our numbers and things like the
> New Roman list and the newer, gentler tone here help us to retain new
> citizens in larger numbers.
>
> This year, the cultus deorum is stronger than ever. A pontifex has
> recently agreed here with my assesment that the number of physical
> shrines is growing and that citizens are participating in public
> rituals in increasing numbers. If all goes well I myself might be able
> to dedicate a public shrine in Asia Orientalis, perhaps the first one
> to the Dei Romae in this part of the world.
>
> This year has greater political security and stability than in the
> past. Our elections have gone ahead in a manner far superior to the
> crisis of last year. We still have open slots, but that is no crisis
> at all. A real danger to the state was averted, with controversy,
> true, but with no serious damage to the state.
>
> If we are off track, I cannot imagine what other track we should be on.
>
> Extraordinary measures are not needed to strengthen the pax deorum. If
> prayers must be offered, if sacrifices must be made, if rituals must
> be performed, then let it bee done according to the ancient ways. Let
> us not disrupt a system in order to set it right.
>
> Let physical shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> virtual shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> prayers be written and posted. Nothing now prevents it. Let Concordia
> be honored, Nothing now prevents it. Let the wiki be used as a tool
> for enlightenment and instruction. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> rituals be performed to all the gods. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> lararia be built. Nothing now prevents it.
>
> Let the life of Nova Roma continue in the well-balanced way of our
> ancestors. Let nothing prevent it.
>
> optime valete in pace deorum.
>

If one makes oneself a public spectacle, why should others not deal with that spectacle publicly. I guess we are supposed show her more respect than she shows the group and its members in her public cries of treason and lawsuits. I see what she is doing as FAR MORE distasteful than commenting on her public behavior in public. I guess you could have simply not read or responded to my post if it made you uncomfortable or responded in private as you advised me to do with her threats and outbursts :)  But I will leave it at that. I apologize if I have made you uncomfortable, I am not here to make enemies or bicker...honestly. As I have stated before I will simply try to ignore it from now on. Sorry for any part I have allowed myself to play in this.

Appius Claudius Drusus

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:38:03 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote

> Salve,
>
> I really feel quite uncomfortable with this constant return you make
> to one particular citizen. I'm not a judge and neither, I think are
> you. I'm perfectly happy to discuss ideas, but this notion of two
> people discussing another one, and in public, is quite distateful.
>
> I think we share a dislike of "outbusts" in general. As I said before,
> a private message here or there does wonders to calm things down. This
> is a normal thing for adults to do, so it surprises me that I must so
> often speak in support of such communication here.
>
> Any citizen has a right to ignore any message or all messages from any
> citizen or number of citizens. The fact that it is possible to ignore
> someone is a commonplace. I support the rights of all to ignore
> whatever and whomoever they wish. In fact, ignoring certain things is
> sometimes the best way to deal with them, but I do not support the
> idea that anyone should advocate in public that another person should
> be ignored. That is striking a hurt at the notion of a free society
> and open debate. It is possible to have opinions of course. But there
> is a great difference between "I think X is a twit" and "X should be
> ignored". Besides being bad form indeed it is insulting to anyone who
> cares to come to his or her own conclusions about things. Further, it
> adds nothing to the debate but only adds a secondary element of noise.
>
> I find it difficult to respond to most of the rest of what you say,
> because as I said I really feel uncomfortable debating your opinions
> about another citizen. The notion that you find someone difficult to
> deal with comes through clearly enough, and rehashing it adds nothing
> new. The notion that the person in question adds nothing to our Res
> Publica has been proven false by others.
>
> Thank you for an interesting exchange.
>
> optime vale in pace deorum
>
> Agricola
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes, if you are using pewter, make sure you are using lead free. This can be ordered on the internet at reasonable prices. I have always wanted to mint coins the Roman way. Making the planchettes is a simple matter but making dies that can survive striking is a completely different matter. Maybe one day when I have more funds and access to better equipment. I would love to work with bronze but it requires very high temperatures to melt and again, at the moment I lack that ability :)

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:50:15 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote

> Salve!
>
> A timely post!
>
> I have recently put a scare into some friends by suggesting that a
> hibachi and a vacuum cleaner (blowing end) would let me achieve high
> temperatures out on my balcony. It is quite a small balcony, only
> about 60 or 70 centimeters in depth...
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A warning though. Old pewter has a high lead content. Extreme care
> should be taken when melting anything with a lot of lead, as it is
> quite toxic. Organ builders, for example, take blood tests twice a
> year, just to check for lead buildup from handling the pipes. New
> pewter is a different animal altogether.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A note about coins. The Roman procedure was to cast the planchettes
> (blanks) and then strike the impression into the hot planchettes.
> Between casting and striking were other steps such as trimming and
> weighing, so the planchettes did not go directly from casting to striking.
>
> Now, lets talk about casting BRONZE. Is anyone interesting in casting
> some fibulae?
>
> optime valete
>
> Agricola
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
> >
> > As of late I have been learning how to cast in sand. I firend asked
> me to explaint he process and since it is such an easy process in this
> basic form I thought I would also share the information here for
> people who might want to make their own charms, coins, or medallions:
> >
> > You will need:
> >
> > 1. Metal you can melt...pewter melts very easy at a lower temp
> (around 600) so I would start with that, but you can move on to silver
> but you will need a MUCH hotter heat source. You will need an iron
> container to melt your metal and a good ladle to scoop it out for
> pouring. I just used a camping stove, a small iron bowl and a small
> steel ladle.
> >
> > 2. 2 sturdy wooden frames (like picture frames but make sure they
> are sturdy) I simply cut some hard wood and used those flat metal
> joins. Hinge your two frame together.
> >
> > 3. You will need very fine grained sand mixed with a bit of oil or
> similar liquid that will allow the sand to pack and not just spill
> loose. Some art supply places might have this already mixed or you can
> buy it online...you can also buy metal online as well.
> >
> > 4. A bowl with water and some large tweezers.
> >
> > 5. A mallet
> >
> > 6. Something hard and flat...I used a a small peice of thin flat
> board a bit wider than the width of my frame.
> >
> > 7. At least 2 clamps that can clamp your 2 frames together, 3 is
> probably better.
> >
> > 8. a small cylindrical wooden dowel no thicker than a pencil.
> Another very thin one. You can buy this at a hardware store in many
> different sizes.
> >
> > This is really all you need.
> >
> > Step 1...get your metal in the bowl over the flame and start it
> melting...you can keep the flame on it and it will stay in liquid
> form...if you are using pewter, make sure you are using lead free.
> >
> > Step 2...lay your frames out and scoop your sand into them into it
> fills the fame and is piled up like and anthill (your frame should NOT
> have a back or front, just the frame)
> >
> > Step 3...take your mallet and pound the sand into the frames until
> it is stuck in the frame very tight. pound it hard, pack it until it
> wont pack any lower (though when you are done pounding the sand level
> should not be below the frame edge).
> >
> > Step 4...Take your flat small thin board and run it across the top
> of the frames scraping off the excess sand until the level of your
> sand is at the level of your frame edge.
> >
> > You should now have 2 hinged frames packed with sand. At this point
> you will want to make your impression. This is a bit tricky but if you
> are careful it should be no problem. For this example I will say you
> are making a copy of a coin or medallion.
> >
> > Step 5...Take your coin or medallion and press it into the sand
> until you hit mid point in the thickness of the coin or medal. VERY
> CAREFULLY close your frames one on top of the first with the object
> still in it do it very carefully so you dont loose your sand, if you
> packed it right it shouldn't be a problem. If you packed the sand
> tight enough, you could be able to tap the top sand to be sure you
> make a good clear impression.
> >
> > Step 6...open the frames. and CAREFULLY remove the coin or medal.
> you should have impressions in the sand on both sides. You may want to
> embellish...
> >
> > Step 7...which ever frame will be on top when you close. Take your
> wooden dowel and poke a hole in your sand where it just barely cuts
> into your impression...just the outer edge of the hole should touch
> the outer edge of the impression...do the same on the other side of
> the impression with the thin one in the same way on the SAME frame as
> the other...Thus you should have two holes poked through to the top of
> your sand on one frame The thicker hole will be where you pour your
> metal, the thin one is for air to escape.
> >
> > Step 8... Now just close the frames and clamp them shut on 2-3
> sides...take your ladle and scoop out some of the molten metal and
> carefully pour it into the larger hole...try to gauge the amount,
> enough to fill your impression. there should probably be enough to
> start coming up the air hole and you should see it in your pour
> hole...you have poured enough.
> >
> > Now the metal will harden very quickly but give it a few
> minutes....pour it quickly but carefully, dont worry if you spill a
> bit on the stop of the sand, you can always just get the spill when it
> hardens and put it back in your pot.
> >
> > after few minutes your metal will be hardened without doubt and you
> can knock the sand out of your frames. You cannot use the same
> impression twice because of the metal in the pour and air holes will
> mess up the sand as you pull out your end product..this is certain.
> You will find your coin or medal in the sand with a bit of metal
> coming off of it from the air and pour tubes....dont touch it with
> your hand, it will still probably be hot...pick it out of the sand
> with your tweezers and drop it in your water.
> >
> > Once it is cool, Clip off the metal left from the pour and air tube
> and sand down any nub left over or any seams. You can polish it and
> you should have a rather nice little reproduction.
> >
> > Now you can also make your own designs in self hardening clay or
> some other substance to make original designs.
> >
> > This is the most BASIC way of making a simple sand casting. There
> are other more advance ways to cast more complicated forms which I
> plan to try yet I am, right now, having fun with this method right now...
> >
> > Hope this helps and if you have any question feel free to ask.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scaurus Agricolae Drusoque SPD.

The Gods know that I've agreed only once with Maior in all the time
I've been in NR, and I've been the target of a huge proportion of her
vitriol over the years, but she has every right to say whatever she
pleases in the forum. And I shall defend that right if anyone tries
to strip her of it.

Yes, I think her intemperate, irrational, and constantly abusive, but
if you read Cicero, Sallust, and Livy, the same can be said for many
Republican politicians. I think that sometimes we are far too
restrictive on the ML in ways that the Romans never were in the forum,
nor even in the Senate.

Valete.

Scaurus

Salve!

Ah, but keep this in mind: brass and bronze *work harden*.

The dies must have proper support. The force of the blow must be
directed *through* the dies and must not be allowed to fracture them.
But still, making the dies is not impossible. It is just attention to
all these details, plus hot striking.

The trick, I think, is not so much in technology but in becoming very
very familiar with the working properties of the material. I would
wager that even the hammer weights were chosen carefully.

Now the real problem, in my opinion, is not in the working, but in the
artistic cutting of the dies. I've posted on that here before. The
level of skill was awesome. Everything else we could manage if we want
to. No kind of wanting to though will make any of us a die cutter like
they had back then. Years of practice, yes, just wanting, no.

optime vale

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
>
> yes, if you are using pewter, make sure you are using lead free.
This can be ordered on the internet at reasonable prices. I have
always wanted to mint coins the Roman way. Making the planchettes is a
simple matter but making dies that can survive striking is a
completely different matter. Maybe one day when I have more funds and
access to better equipment. I would love to work with bronze but it
requires very high temperatures to melt and again, at the moment I
lack that ability :)
>
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:50:15 -0000, M. Lucretius Agricola wrote
> > Salve!
> >
> > A timely post!
> >
> > I have recently put a scare into some friends by suggesting that a
> > hibachi and a vacuum cleaner (blowing end) would let me achieve high
> > temperatures out on my balcony. It is quite a small balcony, only
> > about 60 or 70 centimeters in depth...
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > A warning though. Old pewter has a high lead content. Extreme care
> > should be taken when melting anything with a lot of lead, as it is
> > quite toxic. Organ builders, for example, take blood tests twice a
> > year, just to check for lead buildup from handling the pipes. New
> > pewter is a different animal altogether.
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > A note about coins. The Roman procedure was to cast the planchettes
> > (blanks) and then strike the impression into the hot planchettes.
> > Between casting and striking were other steps such as trimming and
> > weighing, so the planchettes did not go directly from casting to
striking.
> >
> > Now, lets talk about casting BRONZE. Is anyone interesting in casting
> > some fibulae?
> >
> > optime valete
> >
> > Agricola
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@> wrote:
> > >
> > > As of late I have been learning how to cast in sand. I firend asked
> > me to explaint he process and since it is such an easy process in this
> > basic form I thought I would also share the information here for
> > people who might want to make their own charms, coins, or medallions:
> > >
> > > You will need:
> > >
> > > 1. Metal you can melt...pewter melts very easy at a lower temp
> > (around 600) so I would start with that, but you can move on to silver
> > but you will need a MUCH hotter heat source. You will need an iron
> > container to melt your metal and a good ladle to scoop it out for
> > pouring. I just used a camping stove, a small iron bowl and a small
> > steel ladle.
> > >
> > > 2. 2 sturdy wooden frames (like picture frames but make sure they
> > are sturdy) I simply cut some hard wood and used those flat metal
> > joins. Hinge your two frame together.
> > >
> > > 3. You will need very fine grained sand mixed with a bit of oil or
> > similar liquid that will allow the sand to pack and not just spill
> > loose. Some art supply places might have this already mixed or you can
> > buy it online...you can also buy metal online as well.
> > >
> > > 4. A bowl with water and some large tweezers.
> > >
> > > 5. A mallet
> > >
> > > 6. Something hard and flat...I used a a small peice of thin flat
> > board a bit wider than the width of my frame.
> > >
> > > 7. At least 2 clamps that can clamp your 2 frames together, 3 is
> > probably better.
> > >
> > > 8. a small cylindrical wooden dowel no thicker than a pencil.
> > Another very thin one. You can buy this at a hardware store in many
> > different sizes.
> > >
> > > This is really all you need.
> > >
> > > Step 1...get your metal in the bowl over the flame and start it
> > melting...you can keep the flame on it and it will stay in liquid
> > form...if you are using pewter, make sure you are using lead free.
> > >
> > > Step 2...lay your frames out and scoop your sand into them into it
> > fills the fame and is piled up like and anthill (your frame should NOT
> > have a back or front, just the frame)
> > >
> > > Step 3...take your mallet and pound the sand into the frames until
> > it is stuck in the frame very tight. pound it hard, pack it until it
> > wont pack any lower (though when you are done pounding the sand level
> > should not be below the frame edge).
> > >
> > > Step 4...Take your flat small thin board and run it across the top
> > of the frames scraping off the excess sand until the level of your
> > sand is at the level of your frame edge.
> > >
> > > You should now have 2 hinged frames packed with sand. At this point
> > you will want to make your impression. This is a bit tricky but if you
> > are careful it should be no problem. For this example I will say you
> > are making a copy of a coin or medallion.
> > >
> > > Step 5...Take your coin or medallion and press it into the sand
> > until you hit mid point in the thickness of the coin or medal. VERY
> > CAREFULLY close your frames one on top of the first with the object
> > still in it do it very carefully so you dont loose your sand, if you
> > packed it right it shouldn't be a problem. If you packed the sand
> > tight enough, you could be able to tap the top sand to be sure you
> > make a good clear impression.
> > >
> > > Step 6...open the frames. and CAREFULLY remove the coin or medal.
> > you should have impressions in the sand on both sides. You may want to
> > embellish...
> > >
> > > Step 7...which ever frame will be on top when you close. Take your
> > wooden dowel and poke a hole in your sand where it just barely cuts
> > into your impression...just the outer edge of the hole should touch
> > the outer edge of the impression...do the same on the other side of
> > the impression with the thin one in the same way on the SAME frame as
> > the other...Thus you should have two holes poked through to the top of
> > your sand on one frame The thicker hole will be where you pour your
> > metal, the thin one is for air to escape.
> > >
> > > Step 8... Now just close the frames and clamp them shut on 2-3
> > sides...take your ladle and scoop out some of the molten metal and
> > carefully pour it into the larger hole...try to gauge the amount,
> > enough to fill your impression. there should probably be enough to
> > start coming up the air hole and you should see it in your pour
> > hole...you have poured enough.
> > >
> > > Now the metal will harden very quickly but give it a few
> > minutes....pour it quickly but carefully, dont worry if you spill a
> > bit on the stop of the sand, you can always just get the spill when it
> > hardens and put it back in your pot.
> > >
> > > after few minutes your metal will be hardened without doubt and you
> > can knock the sand out of your frames. You cannot use the same
> > impression twice because of the metal in the pour and air holes will
> > mess up the sand as you pull out your end product..this is certain.
> > You will find your coin or medal in the sand with a bit of metal
> > coming off of it from the air and pour tubes....dont touch it with
> > your hand, it will still probably be hot...pick it out of the sand
> > with your tweezers and drop it in your water.
> > >
> > > Once it is cool, Clip off the metal left from the pour and air tube
> > and sand down any nub left over or any seams. You can polish it and
> > you should have a rather nice little reproduction.
> > >
> > > Now you can also make your own designs in self hardening clay or
> > some other substance to make original designs.
> > >
> > > This is the most BASIC way of making a simple sand casting. There
> > are other more advance ways to cast more complicated forms which I
> > plan to try yet I am, right now, having fun with this method right
now...
> > >
> > > Hope this helps and if you have any question feel free to ask.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve


Thank you. By any measure it has been a good year with remarkable
achievements. I am sure I even left some out of my list.

I just don't see what all the fuss is about. I can't see the need to
do anything out of the ordinary. We should all just do our jobs. I am
unaware of any portents or oracles that would justify all this flap. I
am always skeptical when anyone tries to pull a crisis out of one
pocket and a solution out of the other. Plus, I am looking forward to
Saturnalia.

optime vale

Agricola





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Rutilius Minervalis"
<pjtuloup@...> wrote:

>
> Salve Agricola,
>
> It is always good somebody recalls positive points: a forum is by
> nature a place where feeling is running high and where people paint a
> black picture of the situation; this is an explosive mixture.
>
> We would have to keep your post in mind (me first!)
>
> Vale;
>
> Lucius Rutilius Minervalis,
> Diribitor
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
> <wm_hogue@> wrote:
> >
> > M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.
> >
> > I think extraordinary times often call for extraordinary measures. We
> > are living in extraordinary times, but I think good ones, and ones
> > that do not call for a disruption of our ancient ways. Let me explain
> > why I think we are living in good times.
> >
> > This year, for the first time in years, we have minted a coin. Not
> > only that, but they are selling well, showing their popularity. I can
> > tell you now that they regularly sell on eBay for ten times their face
> > value! This means that for the first time collectors are taking
> > serious interest in our coins. This is a good thing.
> >
> > This year, for the first time in years, we have seen a growth in the
> > Macellum. Two wonderful new vendors have been added in the last few
> > weeks, in addition to those that were added earlier in the year. The
> > Macellum is up to date now for the first time in years, available in
> > multiple languages and growing still. The commercial life of Nova Roma
> > has never been healthier.
> >
> > This year, for the first time in years, we have seen substantial new
> > contributions to our web site. This is of course due to the switch to
> > the wiki system. Citizens are still learning their wiki skills, and
> > the rate of contributions is constantly increasing. Next year is set
> > to be far better still.
> >
> > This year, for the first time ever we have a podcast. Anyone who
> > thinks it should release more frequently probably does not understand
> > the technical and logistical hurdles that are being overcome. Expect
> > much more in the coming year, but this year was a good start.
> >
> > This year the Conventus in Europa continued to bring citizens together
> > in impressive numbers. I sorely regret not attending this year (look
> > at the wiki page!) and I'm looking forward to the chance to join next
> > year in Hispania.
> >
> > This year saw an end to the churning of memberships. The citizen test
> > prevents the frivolous from inflating our numbers and things like the
> > New Roman list and the newer, gentler tone here help us to retain new
> > citizens in larger numbers.
> >
> > This year, the cultus deorum is stronger than ever. A pontifex has
> > recently agreed here with my assesment that the number of physical
> > shrines is growing and that citizens are participating in public
> > rituals in increasing numbers. If all goes well I myself might be able
> > to dedicate a public shrine in Asia Orientalis, perhaps the first one
> > to the Dei Romae in this part of the world.
> >
> > This year has greater political security and stability than in the
> > past. Our elections have gone ahead in a manner far superior to the
> > crisis of last year. We still have open slots, but that is no crisis
> > at all. A real danger to the state was averted, with controversy,
> > true, but with no serious damage to the state.
> >
> > If we are off track, I cannot imagine what other track we should

be on.

> >
> > Extraordinary measures are not needed to strengthen the pax deorum. If
> > prayers must be offered, if sacrifices must be made, if rituals must
> > be performed, then let it bee done according to the ancient ways. Let
> > us not disrupt a system in order to set it right.
> >
> > Let physical shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > virtual shrines and altars be built. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > prayers be written and posted. Nothing now prevents it. Let Concordia
> > be honored, Nothing now prevents it. Let the wiki be used as a tool
> > for enlightenment and instruction. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > rituals be performed to all the gods. Nothing now prevents it. Let
> > lararia be built. Nothing now prevents it.
> >
> > Let the life of Nova Roma continue in the well-balanced way of our
> > ancestors. Let nothing prevent it.
> >
> > optime valete in pace deorum.
> >
>

Cato Ti. Iulio Sabino omnibusque SPD

Salve amice et salvete omnes!

Sabine, thank you for your graciousness; you are a kind, generous,
and honorable man.

My sincerest thanks to all the People, from whom I have received this
enormous responsibility. I look forward to an exciting year working
with my colleague-elect Scholastica.

Vale et valete bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Iulius Sabinus"
<iulius_sabinus@...> wrote:

>
> SALVETE !
>
> Congratulations to winners !
>
> Fabius Buteo Modianus is an excelent person.
>
> Paulinus is a great man and a honourable one. In the last time I

saw

> that Faustus is on the same way.
>
> I'm glad to see that the next Praetors will be my friends Cato and
> Scholastica. They really deserve that.
>
> VALETE,
> IVL SABINVS
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
> <tau.athanasios@> wrote:
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
> >
> > I just received notification from Custos Titus Licinius Crassus

on

> the results of the Comitia Centuriata. Congratulations to the
> candidates who won, and a thank you to those who ran but did not

get

> elected. The results are as follows:
> > With 47 of 51 Centuries voting the results are as follows:
> > Censor
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >
> > Consules
> >
> > Lucius Arminius Faustus
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> > Praetores
> >
> > Gaius Equitius Cato
> > Aula Tullia Scholastica
>

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XIV Kalendas Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"Not long after this the Dictator appeared, and at once ordered the
trumpet to sound the Assembly. When silence was restored an usher
summoned Q. Fabius, the Master of the Horse. He advanced and stood
immediately below the Dictator's tribunal. The Dictator began:
"Quintus Fabius, inasmuch as the Dictator possesses supreme authority,
to which the consuls who exercise the old kingly power, and the
praetors who are elected under the same auspices as the consuls alike
submit, I ask you whether or not you think it right and fitting that
the Master of the Horse should bow to that authority? Further, I ask
you whether as I was aware that I had left the City under doubtful
auspices I ought to have jeopardised the safety of the republic in the
face of this religious difficulty, or whether I ought to have taken
the auspices afresh and so avoided any action till the pleasure of the
gods was known? I should also like to know whether, if a religious
impediment prevents the Dictator from acting, the Master of the Horse
is at liberty to consider himself free and unhampered by such
impediment? But why am I putting these questions? Surely, if I had
gone away without leaving any orders, you ought to have used your
judgment in interpreting my wishes and acted accordingly. Answer me
this, rather: Did I forbid you to take any action in my absence? Did I
forbid you to engage the enemy? In contempt of my orders, whilst the
auspices were still indecisive and the sanctions of religion withheld,
you dared to give battle, in defiance of all the military custom and
discipline of our ancestors, in defiance of the will of the gods.
Answer the questions put to you, but beware of uttering a single word
about anything else. Lictor, stand by him!"

Fabius found it far from easy to reply to each question in detail, and
protested against the same man being both accuser and judge in a
matter of life and death. He exclaimed that it would be easier to
deprive him of his life than of the glory he had won, and went on to
exculpate himself and bring charges against the Dictator. Papirius in
a fresh outburst of rage ordered the Master of the Horse to be
stripped and the rods and axes to be got ready. Fabius appealed to the
soldiers for help, and as the lictors began to tear off his clothes,
he retreated behind the triarii who were now raising a tumult. Their
shouts were taken up through the whole concourse, threats and
entreaties were heard everywhere. Those nearest the tribunal, who
could be recognised as being within view of the Dictator implored him
to spare the Master of the Horse and not with him to condemn the whole
army; those furthest off and the men who had closed round Fabius
reviled the Dictator as unfeeling and merciless. Matters were rapidly
approaching a mutiny. Even those on the tribunal did not remain quiet;
the staff officers who were standing round the Dictator's chair begged
him to adjourn the proceedings to the following day to allow his anger
to cool and give time for quiet consideration. They urged that the
youthful spirit of Fabius had been sufficiently chastened and his
victory sufficiently sullied; they begged him not to push his
punishment to extremities or to brand with ignominy not only a youth
of exceptional merit but also his distinguished father and the whole
Fabian house. When they found their arguments and entreaties alike
unavailing, they asked him to look at the angry multitude in front. To
add fire to men whose tempers were already inflamed and to provide the
materials for a mutiny was, they said, unworthy of a man of his age
and experience. If a mutiny did occur, no one would throw the blame of
it upon Q. Fabius, who was only deprecating punishment; the sole
responsibility would lie on the Dictator for having in his blind
passion provoked the multitude to a deplorable struggle with him. And
as a final argument they declared that to prevent him from supposing
that they were actuated by any personal feeling in favour of Fabius,
they were prepared to state on oath that they considered the
infliction of punishment on Fabius under present circumstances to be
detrimental to the interests of the State." - Livy, History of Rome
8.32


"Strong and bright, tall and beautiful of form, who sends down by day
and by night a flow of motherly waters as large as the whole of the
waters that run along the earth, and who runs powerfully." - Fifth
Yasht (Abaun), "Hymn to the Waters", from the Avesta, the sacred
writings of Zoroastrianism

"The first statue of massive gold, without any hollowness within, and
anterior to any of those statues of bronze even, which are known as
'holosphyratae,' is said to have been erected in the Temple of the
goddess Anaitis [Anahita]; to what particular region this name
belongs, we have already stated, it being that of a divinity held in
the highest veneration by the nations in that part of the world." -
Pliny, Natural History XXXIII.xxiv.82

"Most of the precious metals were stripped off in the invasion of
Alexander and his Macedonians, and the rest during the reigns of
Antigonus and Seleucus the son of Nicanor, but still, when Antiochus
reached the place, the temple of Aene [Anahita] alone had the columns
round it still gilded and a number of silver tiles were piled up in
it, while a few gold bricks and a considerable quantity of silver ones
remained." - Polybius, Histories 10.IV.27

"Now the Persians do not erect statues or altars, but offer sacrifice
on a high place, regarding the heavens as Zeus [Ahura-Mazda]; and they
also worship Helios [the Sun], who they call Mithras, and Selene
[Anahita] and Aphrodite, and fire and earth and winds and water; and
with earnest prayer they offer sacrifice in a purified place,
presenting the victim crowned, and when the Magus, who directs the
sacrifice, has divided the meat the people go away with their
shares,Â…; but still, according to some writers, they place a small
portion of the caul upon the fire." - Strabo, Geographies XV.3.13-14

In ancient Persia, today was held in honor of the goddes Ardvi Sura,
an aspect of Anahita. Anahita, which means "the humid", or "strong",
or "immaculate one", was one of the ruling deities of the Persian
Empire. She embodied the physical and metaphroical qualities of water,
especially the fertilizing flow of water from the fountain in the
stars. She also ruled semen and human fertility. She was viewed as the
"Golden Mother" and as a warrior maiden. Anahita was often shown
wearing a golden kerchief, square gold earrings, and a jeweled diadem,
and wrapped in a golde-embroidered cloak adorned with thirty otter
skins. Anahita was sometimes depicted as driving a chariot drawn by
four white horses, representing wind, rain, clouds, and hail. Anahita
was honored with offerings of green branches and white heifers. Ritual
prostitution occurred in Her temples in order to "purify the seed of
males and the womb and milk of females," according to Strabo.

Her cult was strongest in Western Iran, and had extensive parallels
with that of the Semitic Near Eastern "Queen of Heaven", deification
of the planet Venus, eternal virgin (however many sexual encounters
she had), goddess of war, love, and fertility Ishtar, who was probably
derived from the Sumerian Inana. Anahita may have been a direct
borrowing from the Near East, or may have acquired Near Eastern
characteristics from a confrontation between Iranian and Mesopotamian
cultures. By the Hellenistic era Anahita's cult came to be closely
associated with that of Mithra. An inscription from c. 200 B.C.
dedicates a Seleucid temple in Western Iran to "Anahita, the
Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras".

In modern Persian Anahita (Nahid) is the name for the planet Venus.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Polybius, Pliny, Strabo, Wikipedia

Salvete

Here is the real crux of the problem:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...>
wrote:

>
> If the senior consul is prepared to repeat his promise to the Pontifex
> Maximus here in the forum and will give me the dates on which he
> wishes Comitia to vote on his other amendments, I shall amend the
> decretum accordingly to make provision for that vote and present it
> again to the Collegium as amended. As a pontifex and flamen I cannot
> abet the Pontifex Maximus being deceived, so I must have assurance
> that the word given to the Pontifex Maximus still holds.
>

Pontifex Scaurus makes conditional any amendment to his decretum. His
condition is that leges he opposes not be brought before the Comitia.
He poses to abuse the authority of the Collegium over our religious
calendar to usurp powers not held by the Collegium under the
Constitution. He demonstrates in his statement above that his
intention is political and that his decretum was not offered with any
sincere conviction for Concordia in the Collegium or in Nova Roma.

The Collegium Pontificum cannot dictate why a Comitia is assembled or
dictate what may be proposed before it once assembled. On that I will
remain firm.

The period that has been proposed is not in accordance with the mos
maiorum. I consider 45 days a bit excessive, but that can be discussed
in the Collegium. Also in accordance with the mos maiorum it is the
Senate that should determine when a period of prayer and reflection
should be called so that it does not disrupt other procedures.
Properly the Collegium should only advise the Senate on this matter,
not dictate to the Senate and the Res Publica.

I think that differences can still be resolved within the Collegium
itself. But that means that all need to agree to work together towards
a consensus on which all can agree. Instead a confrontational approach
has been taken among the Pontifices. One does not attain
reconciliation by forcing through measures but by discussion.

Valete optime
M Moravius Piscinus

Salvete Quirites. Gratulor et optimam Fortunam vobis exopto.

Congratulations to our newly elected Consules Galerius Paulinus and
Arminius Fustus, and to our newly elected Praetores Gaius Cato and
domina Scholastica.

My thanks to our Diribitores Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
and Lucius Rutilius Minervalis and our Cusdos Emilia Curis Finnica
for their efforts, and to all who participated in the elections.

Deus annuat oro. Ite felix. Ite numinibus votisque secundis.

M Moravius Piscinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus S.P.D.
>
> I just received notification from Custos Titus Licinius Crassus on

the

> results of the Comitia Centuriata. Congratulations to the

candidates who

> won, and a thank you to those who ran but did not get elected. The

results

> are as follows:
>
> Comitia Centuriata
>
> With 47 of 51 Centuries voting the results are as follows:
>
> Censor
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> Consules
>
> Lucius Arminius Faustus
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> Praetores
>
> Gaius Equitius Cato
> Aula Tullia Scholastica
>
> ---
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cato M. Moravio Piscino sal.

Piscinus, I think you are looking at this incorrectly.

You wrote:

"Pontifex Scaurus makes conditional any amendment to his decretum."

Of course he does; that's what's called bargaining: "you give me this
and I'll give you that." Why on earth should he give in to everything
everybody wants if he is not to receive something in return? This
kind of thing happens everywhere and anywhere that humans group
together to get anything done. Why should we be any different?

This tails on my thoughts about us, as a community, seeming to try not
to act as the Romans might have but rather to keep up the white marble
facades we imagine we "should" be; perfectly preserved and absolutely
immobile in our cold dead perfection. This is untenable in a group of
living, breathing human beings.

The problem comes from the fact that, in trying to keep in place this
marble facade (which we try to support with words like "dignitas",
"gravitas", &c.) we forget that we *are* living, breathing human
beings, with all the accompanying passions and opinions - and we act
surprised when our opponents on an issue display these passions and
opinions. Worse, we generally assume some evil motive behind our
opponents' passions and opinions.

The BEST case scenario here: Pontifex Scaurus wants a period of
reflection and repair both within the College of Pontiffs and
throughout the Republic. He is willing to bend (to a certain degree)
to accommodate the necessary functions of government during this
period - but he knows what he wants and expresses it clearly, if
somewhat abruptly.

The WORST case scenario here: Pontifex Scaurus is trying to destroy
the Republic - silence the People, hamstring the current magistrates,
and make the Republic a pantheocracy for 34 days. He is obdurate and
unwilling to yield to the desperate cries of the People to allow the
government to function as it should.

Which do you think is more likely?

Remember that the lex Constitutiva guarantees the People certain
rights, and no lex or edictum or decretum can override the lex
Constitutiva. Remember, too, that once a day has been declared
comitialis, the day becomes comitialis, with all the effects that
pertain to such a day - including the right to call the comitia, and
to set the agenda of the comitia called.

So, let's use our old friend the hat to illustrate:

The College of Pontiffs passes a decretum stating that all citizens
must wear red hats during the month of Decembris to honor the gods -
and that no governmental functions may take place on days on which the
magistrates wear red hats. To allow certain functions to continue
unimpeded, the CP then declares the nundinum between a.d. X Idus
Decembris and pridie Idus Decembris comitialis - days on which
citizens may wear blue hats - or no hat at all. A presiding
magistrate may then do anything that is allowed on a dies comitialis:
call the comiti ato vote in elections, consider amendments to the lex
Constitutiva, or issue edicta or decreta.

In other words, as Gn. Iulius Caesar has pointed out, the College of
Pontiffs can call for the wearing of a certain hat, but cannot change
the respective *effects* of the wearing of those hats.

To argue about the validity based on the length of the period in
question is specious; by basing an argument on the length of time you
are admitting that the basic presumption is true: the College can in
fact order the calendar. It brings to mind the old joke which ends,
"We've already determined what you *are*, madam - we are simply
haggling over the price."

Vale bene,

Cato