Selected messages in Nova-Roma group. Dec 1-8, 2006

Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47910 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: A Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47911 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Question on Reform of the Religio-A Response to Maior's inaccuracie
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47912 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47913 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47914 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47915 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47916 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47917 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Kal. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47918 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47919 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47920 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Question on Reform of the Religio-You are still being evasive, domi
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47921 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47922 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47923 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47924 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47925 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47926 From: wuffa2001 Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47927 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47928 From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: IMPORTANT Election Notice - C. Centuriata
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47929 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Austrorientalis event in Acworth & Atlanta, GA on Dec. 2 & 3
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47930 From: Lucius Iunius Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Ancient Analog Computer: Antikythera Mechanism
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47931 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47932 From: rory kirshner Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: On Reform of the Religio : CORDUS' Post: Re: De jure pontificio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47933 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Candidacy for Rogator
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47934 From: Lucius Iunius Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Californianis Sal.: Unofficial Roll Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47935 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47936 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47937 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47938 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47939 From: Christopher Mullin Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Californianis Sal.: Unofficial Roll Call
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47940 From: Joe Geranio Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Review of Die Bildnisse des Augustus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47941 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Californianis Sal.: Thanks to Iulius Verus.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47942 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47943 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: post. Kal. Dec. (a.d. IV Non. Dec.)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47944 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47945 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47946 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47947 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: De suffragiis novis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47948 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: a.d. III Non. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47949 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Collegium Pontificum Vote Results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47950 From: tacitus_pocillator Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47951 From: Rick Sciarappa Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Collegium Pontificum Vote Results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47952 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Collegium Pontificum Vote Results
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47953 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47954 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Regarding Reform of the Religio-Back at ya.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47955 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47956 From: Nabarz Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Abstracts:An academic and religious journal of Greek, Roman and Per
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47957 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Meditations on Coulanges
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47958 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: prid. Non. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47959 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47960 From: marcushoratius Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47961 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Personal Attacks (Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding Reform of the Relig
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47962 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Provincia Austrorientalis event report.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47963 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Personal Attacks--A response to Faustus et al from Flavius Galerius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47964 From: Shoshana Hathaway Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Provincial Event Report
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47965 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Personal Attacks--A response to Faustus et al from Flavius Gale
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47966 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47967 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47968 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Bryn Mawr Review of Le College Pontifical
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47969 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47970 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47971 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47972 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47973 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47974 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Non. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47975 From: os390account Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: The cista has closed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47976 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47977 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47978 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47979 From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: C Centuriata draft tally
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47980 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47981 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47982 From: rory kirshner Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Fwd: : Regarding "Reform" of the Religio # 47946
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47983 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47984 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Fwd: : Regarding "Reform" of the Religio # 47946
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47985 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47986 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47987 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47988 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47989 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47990 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47991 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47992 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: a.d. VIII Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47993 From: flavius leviticus Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [gensgaleria] Re: [Austrorientalis] Austrorientalis Provincial
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47994 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47995 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47996 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47997 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47998 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47999 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48000 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48001 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48002 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48003 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48004 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48005 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48006 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48007 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48008 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48009 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: To the Praetores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48010 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48011 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48012 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48013 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48014 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48015 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48016 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48017 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48018 From: Volentia Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Calendar Discount - Going, Going...
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48019 From: mutundehre Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48020 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48021 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48022 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48023 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48024 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48025 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48026 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48027 From: Diana Aventina Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Temple of Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48028 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48029 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48030 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48031 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48032 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: a.d. VII Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48033 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48034 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: On Following Multiple Religions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48035 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48036 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48037 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48038 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Why the Insult?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48039 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48040 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48041 From: os390account Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48042 From: marcushoratius Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48043 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Why the Insult?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48044 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48045 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48046 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48047 From: drumax Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48048 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48049 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48050 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48051 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Why the Insult?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48052 From: flavius leviticus Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48053 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio] - Chris
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48054 From: Diana Aventina Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48055 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48056 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48057 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48058 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48059 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: And now for something really different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48060 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: And now for something really different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48061 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48062 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: And now for something really different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48063 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: On Roman Syncretism
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48064 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: And now for something really different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48065 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48066 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: On Following Multiple Religions
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48067 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48068 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48069 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48070 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48071 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: On Roman Syncretism
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48072 From: Shoshana Hathaway Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48073 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: On Roman Syncretism
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48074 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Market day like chat on the main list
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48075 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Market day like chat on the main list
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48076 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Om shanti:, shanti;, shanti:
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48077 From: dicconf Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48078 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48079 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: a.d. VI Id. Dec.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48080 From: Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: To Conscientious Citizens - Candidates Needed
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48081 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: And now for something really different
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48082 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: And now for something really different--Brought to you by the g
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48083 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: "Pilum" Article Series -- Canal Construction In the Ancient World
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48084 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: IO SATURNALIA!
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48085 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: And now for something really different--Brought to you by the E



Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47910 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: A Question on Reform of the Religio
Yep. It was me that suggested that the College of Fetiales and the Arval
Brethren be closed down. I also suggested that the Epulones be limited to two
or three at most to assist the aediles and praetores with the ludii.
Traditionally, the Epulones took over the organization of sacred feasts from the
Pontiffs in 197 BCE. There were originally only three (tresviri epulones) but
it was increased under Sulla to seven and under Iulius Caesar to ten.

As a flamen minor, I have no vote in the CP but can offer advice and
suggestions during discussions prior to a vote by the CP. Right now, I have been
pushing for the CP to put together & approve the sacred calendar for 2760 so it
can be presented to the Consuls well before the Kalends of Ianuarius.
Traditionally, the first meeting of the Senate by the newly installed consuls
occurred on that date to set the movable feriae conceptivae & feriae stativae
(Paganalia, Feriae Latinae, Floralia [as the current date is tied to a now
destroyed temple], Sementivae, etc.) and approve the calendar of public festivals
and ludi.

Another item that I have suggested would be to begin assembling the first
volume of De Libris Pontificiis (The Pontiffs' Books). This would be assembled
by members of the CP, CA, flamens, and sacerdotes. The books should contain
the definition of the various days of the calendar along with what sacred,
secular, and legal actions could take place; the primary public festivals and
ludi that have been celebrated by Nova Roma; the templates for the sacra
privata; the public rites for the Kalends, Nones & Ides; and as many rites and
caerimoniae for various festivals as possible; and a recommended reading list.
Future volumes would contain all of the assembled knowledge on augury, the
duties and responsibilities of magistrates invested with the ius auspicia; and
in what manner the College of Augurs would assist in educating the people
and magistrates in the ars auspicia. The information would be readily
available to the Senate and People of Nova Roma for their own practices of the Sacra
et Religio Romana.

I believe that the reform of the Sacred Colleges is of critical importance
to the Res Publica of Nova Roma but it is a step that can be put off until we
have more material to build on. Also, De Libris Pontificiis would educate
more of our citizens so they would feel more comfortable applying for positions
with the CP, CA, and among the flamens and sacerdotes.

Well enough rambling from me.

F. Galerius Aurelianus
Flamen Cerialis








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47911 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Question on Reform of the Religio-A Response to Maior's inaccuracie
F. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.

M. Hortensia Maior is very good at her constant harping on the colleges
returning to their historical Roman form without being very specific about what
period of the Republic she is talking about. I emailed her some questions
about how she feels that perpetuating certain sacred offices and colleges that
have no function in Nova Roma would improve the overall Romanitas of our
group. She has yet to respond to my questions but as we all know from the
majority of her most recent posts, she is far more interested in demagoguery &
rabble rousing than accuracy or function.

For instance, I have suggested on the CP list and the ML that the College of
Epulones be limited to their original number of three (tresviri epulones) as
first established in 197 BCE. I believe that most well-informed Nova Romans
will recognize that Sulla and Caesar increased their numbers so that more
public feasts would be held to increase their political popularity with the
urban population. I believe that even Maior would have to admit that neither
Sulla nor Iulius Caesar are examples of preservers of the Roman Republic.

Also, Maior did not respond to my question about why Nova Roma should
continue to have a College of Fetiales when they were particularly concerned with
the rituals involved in declaring war and ensuring that the war was just. So
far no one in the Sacred Colleges including the only Fetialis, Metellus
Pontifex, or Apollonius Cordus has leaped upon me verbally and tell me that I am
mistaken in my argument.

Maior and others (just who are these others of whom she speaks?) posts that
the Romans were conservative and very practical. They were both, of course,
but they were also adaptable and willing to change. The Religio Romana of
the Late Republic was not the same as that of the Early Republic. New gods
were brought into Rome over the centuries, including the Magna Mater, Herakles,
Apollo, Venus Erycina, Mithras, Isis, Serapis, and many other Gods; usually
because of interpretations of the Sibylline Books. Which were sold to a Roman
King of Etruscan origin by the Sibyl of Cumae (a Greek oracle from a Greek
colony in Italia, whose books were written in Greek hexameter).

Actually, there is hardly anything left of the original rituals of the
Regnum or early Republic. We have a very limited idea about who Falacer was or
His exact sphere of influence. There are two Flamen Minores that have not been
added to our numbers; these are theorized to be the Flamen Neptunalis and
the Flamen Fontanalis. The basis for the belief in these two flamen are that
the Fontinalia and the Neptunalia were two of the most ancient festivals of
Rome of the Kings and the Early Republic.

Maior is always pushing Scullard and Scheid as two very good books on the
Religio Romana. I agree with her that they are very good works but they are
only two of many good works. It may be that these are the only two books Maior
has ever read on the Religio Romana, but I have no evidence to support this
hypothesis. She also appears to believe that everyone needs to take a course
or two at the Academia Thule to solve all their misunderstandings and
misconceptions about Roman history and religion. The AT is a great asset to NR and
will likely become a great asset to all academia but there are other routes.
One of my favorites is the Inter-Library Loan.

She doesn't mention the works of R. Turcan, Beard & North, Spaeth, Adkins,
Vanggaard (great book, Cordus, glad you recommended it), W. Fowler, G.
Dumezil, M. Hoffman Lewis, C. Kerenyi (very good theories of the caerimonae of the
Flamen Dapalis), W. Robertson Smith (Samnite religion), C. G. Leland (Etruscan
religion), J. Ferguson, R.M. Ogilvie (one of my favorite small volumes), or
JSTOR.

So at this point in my diatribe and obvious distaste for Maior's multiple
inaccuracies and spurious arguments, I hurl her accusations of what she believes
my wishes for the Religio are, back in her teeth. This is what I actually
believe, domina:

There is no point in restoring the Four Sacred Colleges and some of the
associated colleges back to their original forms because some offices no longer
have a purpose or even a shred of usefulness. The Religio Romana is about
reconstruction AND revitalization to make it a LIVING instrument of the Sacra et
Religion. The current members of the Collegium Pontificum would better
serve Nova Roma by creating De Libris Pontificiis so that all of the Senate and
People of Nova Roma would be able to honor Dii Immortales and increase Them.
If Nova Roma and the cultores deorum do not adapt, improvise, and overcome by
active creation AND reconstruct that which is useful to our current lives;
we may find ourselves with a totally dead and useless but oh-so-very
historically accurate Religio.
Hoc opus, hic labor est.

To M. Hortensia Maior - Ni dheanfach an saol capall ras d'asai.

==================================================


the post was by Fl. Galerius Aurelianus who was posing the issue to me. He
differs with A. Apollonius Cordus, myself and others who wish to see the
Colleges return to their historical Republican form, which is the purpose of Nova
Roma.

It's very important to read republican history & understand the Roman point
of view before forming opinions. Romans were very conservative and very
practical.

The Romans celebrated feriae of gods who's purpose & sometimes even sex
they'd forgotten! the Furrinalia, the Volcanalia, the Parilia etc. They were very
conscious of the antiquity of these rites & preserved them. Antiquarians
such as Varro & Nigidius Figulus wrote
volumes on Roman religion.

So we must develop a Roman sensibility which preserves the past & is
pragmatic at the same time.Reading John Scheid's book "Introduction to the Roman
Religion' is of great help. Another great book is H.H. Scullard's "Festivals and
Ceremonies of the Roman Republic."

bene vale in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47912 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
Fl. is the abbreviation for Flavius; not F.

And here is a partial list; how tiresome.
M. Hortensia Maior

A History of Rome Cary & Scullard
Crime & Punishment in Ancient Rome Richard A. Bauman
Law & Life in Rome John Crook
Author: Schulz, Fritz, b. 1879.
Title Classical Roman law.
Historical introduction to the study of Roman law / by the late H.
F. Jolowicz and Barry Nicholas.
Intellectual Life in the Late Roman Republic Elizabeth Rawson
State, Society & Popular Leaders in Mid Republican Rome 241-167 B.C
Rachel Vishnia
The Roman Games Allison Futrell

Author Scheid, John.

Title Religion et piété à Rome / John Scheid.
Imprint Paris : Editions la Découverte, 1985.

The Gods of Ancient Rome Robert Turcan
The Cult of Sol Invictus Gaston H. Halsberghe
Helios und Sol; Kulte und Ikonographie des griecheschen und
romischen sonnengottes Petra Mattern
„Aeneas' Invocation to Sol' JSTOR Karl Galinsky
Numa and the Pythagoreans" JSTOR K.R Prowse
"The Sun which did not rise in the East" Steven Hijmans BABesch
(Bulletin Antieke Beshaving) 71 (1996)
"Le culte du Soleil en Syrie a l'epoque Romane" Henri Seyrig
[Antiquites Syriennes, 95] Syria 48 (1971)
Herakles and Hercules ed: Louis Rawlings & Hugh Bowden
The Myth of Herakles in Ancient Greece Mark W. Padilla

Les cultes orientaux dans le monde romain : Turcan, Robert.; Davis


Dans le sillage de Rome : religion, poésie, humanisme / Robert
Schilling.
La religion romaine de Vénus : depuis les origines jusqu'au
temps d'Auguste / Robert Schilling
Rites, cultes, dieux de Rome / Robert Schilling
Fortuna : recherches sur le culte de la Fortune à Rome et dans le
monde romain des origines à la mort de César / Jacqueline Champeaux
Studien zum altitalischen und altrömischen Marskult und Marsmythos,
[von] Udo W. Scholz.
The pagan god : popular religion in the Greco-Roman Near East / by
Javier Teixidor
The pantheon of Palmyra / Javier Teixidor
Rome in the East : the transformation of an empire / Warwick Ball.
Corpus cultus Cybelae Attidisque (CCCA) / M. J. Vermaseren.
Cybele and Attis : the myth and the cult / Maarten J.
Vermaseren ; [translated from the Dutch by A. M. H. Lemmers].
Cybele, Attis and related cults : essays in memory of M.J.
Vermaseren / edited by Eugene N. Lane.
In search of god the mother : the cult of Anatolian Cybele / Lynn E.
Roller.
Soteriology and mystic aspects in the cult of Cybele and Attis /
Giulia Sfameni Gasparro.
Rome in the late Republic : problems and interpretations / Mary
Beard & Michael Crawford.
On the Syrian goddess / by J.L. Lightfoot ; edited with
introduction, translation, and commentary by J.L. Lightfoot
Studies in Lucian's De Syria dea / by R. A. Oden, Jr.
Imprint Missoula, Mont. : Published by Scholars Press for Harvard
Semitic Museum, c1977.
On the Pythagorean way of life / Iamblichus ; text, translation, and
notes by John Dillon, Jackson Hershbell.
The exhortation to philosophy : including the letters of Iamblichus,
and Proclus commentary on the Chaldean oracles / Iamblichus ;
translated by Thomas Moore Johnson with an introduction by Joscelyn
Godwin ; edited by Stephen Neuville.
Ancient philosophy, mystery, and magic : Empedocles and Pythagorean
tradition / Peter Kingsley
On the Nature of the Gods Cicero
Religions of Rome Beard, North & Price
La magie dans l'antiquité gréco-romaine : idéologie et pratique /
Fritz Graf.
Greek and Roman necromancy / Daniel Ogden.
Magic and magicians in the Greco-Roman world : Dickie, Matthew
Magic, witchcraft, and ghosts in the Greek and Roman worlds : a
sourcebook / Daniel Ogden.
Author Rüpke, Jörg.

Title Fasti sacerdotum : die Mitglieder der Priesterschaften und
das sakrale Funktionspersonal römischer, griechischer,
orientalischer und jüdisch-christlicher Kulte in der Stadt Rom von
300 v. Chr. bis 499 n. Chr. / von Jörg Rüpke ; unter Beifügung einer
CD zur Erschliessung des prosopographischen Materials von Bernd
Nüsslein ; unter Mitarbeit von Helmut Pannke.








> F. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
>
> M. Hortensia Maior is very good at her constant harping on the
colleges
> returning to their historical Roman form without being very
specific about what
> period of the Republic she is talking about. I emailed her some
questions
> about how she feels that perpetuating certain sacred offices and
colleges that
> have no function in Nova Roma would improve the overall Romanitas
of our
> group. She has yet to respond to my questions but as we all know
from the
> majority of her most recent posts, she is far more interested in
demagoguery &
> rabble rousing than accuracy or function.
>
> For instance, I have suggested on the CP list and the ML that the
College of
> Epulones be limited to their original number of three (tresviri
epulones) as
> first established in 197 BCE. I believe that most well-informed
Nova Romans
> will recognize that Sulla and Caesar increased their numbers so
that more
> public feasts would be held to increase their political popularity
with the
> urban population. I believe that even Maior would have to admit
that neither
> Sulla nor Iulius Caesar are examples of preservers of the Roman
Republic.
>
> Also, Maior did not respond to my question about why Nova Roma
should
> continue to have a College of Fetiales when they were
particularly concerned with
> the rituals involved in declaring war and ensuring that the war
was just. So
> far no one in the Sacred Colleges including the only Fetialis,
Metellus
> Pontifex, or Apollonius Cordus has leaped upon me verbally and
tell me that I am
> mistaken in my argument.
>
> Maior and others (just who are these others of whom she speaks?)
posts that
> the Romans were conservative and very practical. They were both,
of course,
> but they were also adaptable and willing to change. The Religio
Romana of
> the Late Republic was not the same as that of the Early
Republic. New gods
> were brought into Rome over the centuries, including the Magna
Mater, Herakles,
> Apollo, Venus Erycina, Mithras, Isis, Serapis, and many other
Gods; usually
> because of interpretations of the Sibylline Books. Which were
sold to a Roman
> King of Etruscan origin by the Sibyl of Cumae (a Greek oracle
from a Greek
> colony in Italia, whose books were written in Greek hexameter).
>
> Actually, there is hardly anything left of the original rituals of
the
> Regnum or early Republic. We have a very limited idea about who
Falacer was or
> His exact sphere of influence. There are two Flamen Minores that
have not been
> added to our numbers; these are theorized to be the Flamen
Neptunalis and
> the Flamen Fontanalis. The basis for the belief in these two
flamen are that
> the Fontinalia and the Neptunalia were two of the most ancient
festivals of
> Rome of the Kings and the Early Republic.
>
> Maior is always pushing Scullard and Scheid as two very good books
on the
> Religio Romana. I agree with her that they are very good works
but they are
> only two of many good works. It may be that these are the only
two books Maior
> has ever read on the Religio Romana, but I have no evidence to
support this
> hypothesis. She also appears to believe that everyone needs to
take a course
> or two at the Academia Thule to solve all their misunderstandings
and
> misconceptions about Roman history and religion. The AT is a
great asset to NR and
> will likely become a great asset to all academia but there are
other routes.
> One of my favorites is the Inter-Library Loan.
>
> She doesn't mention the works of R. Turcan, Beard & North,
Spaeth, Adkins,
> Vanggaard (great book, Cordus, glad you recommended it), W.
Fowler, G.
> Dumezil, M. Hoffman Lewis, C. Kerenyi (very good theories of the
caerimonae of the
> Flamen Dapalis), W. Robertson Smith (Samnite religion), C. G.
Leland (Etruscan
> religion), J. Ferguson, R.M. Ogilvie (one of my favorite small
volumes), or
> JSTOR.
>
> So at this point in my diatribe and obvious distaste for Maior's
multiple
> inaccuracies and spurious arguments, I hurl her accusations of
what she believes
> my wishes for the Religio are, back in her teeth. This is what
I actually
> believe, domina:
>
> There is no point in restoring the Four Sacred Colleges and some
of the
> associated colleges back to their original forms because some
offices no longer
> have a purpose or even a shred of usefulness. The Religio Romana
is about
> reconstruction AND revitalization to make it a LIVING instrument
of the Sacra et
> Religion. The current members of the Collegium Pontificum would
better
> serve Nova Roma by creating De Libris Pontificiis so that all of
the Senate and
> People of Nova Roma would be able to honor Dii Immortales and
increase Them.
> If Nova Roma and the cultores deorum do not adapt, improvise, and
overcome by
> active creation AND reconstruct that which is useful to our
current lives;
> we may find ourselves with a totally dead and useless but oh-so-
very
> historically accurate Religio.
> Hoc opus, hic labor est.
>
> To M. Hortensia Maior - Ni dheanfach an saol capall ras d'asai.
>
> ==================================================
>
>
> the post was by Fl. Galerius Aurelianus who was posing the issue
to me. He
> differs with A. Apollonius Cordus, myself and others who wish to
see the
> Colleges return to their historical Republican form, which is the
purpose of Nova
> Roma.
>
> It's very important to read republican history & understand the
Roman point
> of view before forming opinions. Romans were very conservative
and very
> practical.
>
> The Romans celebrated feriae of gods who's purpose & sometimes
even sex
> they'd forgotten! the Furrinalia, the Volcanalia, the Parilia
etc. They were very
> conscious of the antiquity of these rites & preserved them.
Antiquarians
> such as Varro & Nigidius Figulus wrote
> volumes on Roman religion.
>
> So we must develop a Roman sensibility which preserves the past &
is
> pragmatic at the same time.Reading John Scheid's
book "Introduction to the Roman
> Religion' is of great help. Another great book is H.H.
Scullard's "Festivals and
> Ceremonies of the Roman Republic."
>
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47913 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
On 12/1/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
>
> And here is a partial list; how tiresome.
> M. Hortensia Maior
> --


How absolutely typical of Maior to sned nothing but a bibliography and avoid
answering a single question. If that is who Nova roma wants as a Tribune - I
despair.

Flavia Lucilla Merula

Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47914 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Scaurus quiritibus SPD.

I posted this earlier to the CP list and thought the ML might be
interested in it.

The proposal for "reforming" the religio raises some interesting
issues, but as historical scholarship it is wanting. In attempting to
shift administration of the religio from the Collegium Pontificum to
the Senate and to restrict the Collegium Pontificum's role to merely
issuing the responsa of individual pontifices to questions from the
Senate and magistrates it both ignores pertinent ancient sources and
reads the ancient sources it references selectively in such a way as
to distort the facts.

The most straightforward ancient statement of the relationship between
the Collegium Pontificum is found in a letter from Cicero to Atticus
in which he describes the session of the Senate at which the decision
of the Collegium Pontificum regarding the consecration of a shrine on
the site of Cicero's house was presented. Marcellinus, the presiding
consul, demanded of M. Lucullus, the seniormost pontifex (Caesar, the
Pontifex Maximus was in Gallia), an explanation of the reasons for the
Collegium's decision. Lucullus refused to disclose the reasons and,
according to Cicero, replied:

M. Lucullus responded then about the decision of all his colleagues
that the pontifices were the judges of the religio, as the senate was
of the secular law; he and his colleagues had decided about the
religio, now they would decide in the senate, with the senate, about
the secular law. (Cic. Ad Att. 4, 2, 4)

In short, the pontifex Lucullus claimed that the Collegium had an
entirely different jurisdiction from the Senate, was not subordinate
to the Senate, and need not justify its decisions to the Senate. The
Collegium Pontificum had the same competency in matters of the religio
that the Senate had in secular law. And, since all the members of the
Collegium Pontificum were members of the Senate, they would
participate in resolution of question of civil law regarding whether
the land on which Cicero's house had stood should be deeded back to
him, discussion of which by the Senate their decision made.
Marcellinus did not dispute Lucullus' assertion of the relationship
between Collegium Pontificum and Senate.

It is odd that a set of arguments which claim to depend on Cicero's De
domo sua should ignore reference to the wider context in Cicero's
other writings. This is odder still because a claim that the
Collegium Pontificum was a subordinate body which merely advised the
Senate is belied by the clear evidence of De domo sua itself. Brief
summarized, Publius Clodius had had a member of the Collegium
Pontificum consecrate a shrine on the ruins of Cicero's home after
Cicero went into exile. On his return Cicero applied to the Senate
for restoration of his house. The Senate referred the matter to the
Collegium Pontificum for trial on the ground that the question of
ownership of the land could not be resolved until the validity of the
consecration on it was determined. The Senate, thus, referred the
matter to the Collegium precisely because the Senate was incompetent
to decide the matter of sacral law. This referral was a reflection of
separate jurisdictions, a point to which Cicero makes reference in the
oration. The entire Collegium, minus the absent Pontifex Maximus, sat
in judgment.

There is another factor which the proposal ignores. In the entire
corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of the
Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a decretum
independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or defied
by the Senate or any magistrate. Indeed, Cicero alludes to the
Senate's uniform deference to the Collegium Pontificum in religious
matters. If the proposers were to guarantee that the Nova Roman
Senate will never fail to defer to the Nova Roman Collegium Pontificum
in any matter pertaining to the religio, it would certainly better
accord with the historical sources.

The "reform" proposal makes much of the fact that Livy usually refers
to the Collegium Pontificum in his histories in terms of matters being
referred to the Collegium by the Senate or magistrates or opinions
being sought of the Collegium by the Senate or magistrates. The
reason for this is very straightforward: Livy's principal interest is
in the activities of the Senate and magistrates. Religious matters
are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in Livy's
narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates. To
infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
information service for the Senate and magistrates is methodologically
incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does cite
instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent action
and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action. The
notion that pontifices only issued individual responsa in reply to
questions from the Senate and magistrates is a function of looking
only at cases where questions were asked of individual pontifices.
Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in response
to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum, decretum
collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth. The authors of the proposal
have simply ignored this philological evidence.

It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this fallacious
claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
pontifices. In his De haruspicum responsis Cicero twice refers to
quora needed for pontifical decisions:

Does there exist so large religious scruple from which we are not
released in our hesitations and our largest religious fears by the
answer and the word of only a P. Servilius and only a M. Lucullus? In
connection with the public ceremonies, great games, worship of the
household gods and our mother Vesta, in connection with the sacrifice
which is made for the safety of the Roman people, which three
pontifices decide, that has always appeared to the Roman people with
the Senate and to the immortal Gods themselves to be holy enough,
august enough, religious enough. (Cic. Har. Resp. 12)

And again:

I affirm that, never since the sacra were constituted, the antiquity
of which is the same as that of the city, on any thing, not even on a
capital action against Vestal Virgins, never did the college make an
assessment in so great number. Although for the investigation of a
crime, it matters that a great number is present – for, indeed, the
decision of the pontifices has the power of judges -- but the
assuagement of a religious scruple can justifiably be made by only one
experienced pontifex - which, in a capital lawsuit, would be cruel and
unjust - you will discover, however, that the pontifices carried a
judgment on my house in greater number than for the ceremonies of the
Virgins. (Cic. Har. Resp. 13)

If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual responsa by
individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is clear
that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his designate)
to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of the
Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all the
Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
serious matters – the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or incestum,
the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. – required a larger
number of pontifices still and their collective action. What Cicero
presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is starkly
contradictory to the proposed "reform."

The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
suppression of the Bacchanalia. This rests on a fundamental
misunderstanding of the character of the threat posed by the
Bacchanalia. Neither modern nor ancient scholarship presents the
suppression of the Bacchanalia as a religious matter. What sparked
senatorial action was the occurrence of murders by poisoning,
falsification of wills, kidnapping, and general social disorder under
the guise of a foreign religion. These were secular criminal matters
pertaining to the maintenance of law and order – such matters were
always under the purview of the Senate rather than the Collegium
Pontificum. The Bacchanalia was suppressed because it was cover for
widespread crime and disorder. If the Religio Romana had ever been
used as a guise for the commission of murder, forgery, or riot, it
would have been a matter for the Senate, not the Collegium.
Furthermore, Livy's account is contextualized by his constant focus on
the Senate and magistrates. He does not mention the Collegium
Pontificum, but that does not mean that members of Collegium did not
participate in the Senate debates on dealing with the Bacchanales –
all the pontifices were senators and Livy does not single out the
remarks of individual senators in his account. In short, the
suppression of the Bacchanalia is irrelevant to the "reform" proposal.

The proposal is also questionable in making the four major collegia
independent. There is no scholarship which denies the right of the
Collegium Pontificum in antiquity to discipline other priesthoods in
matters of caerimoniae, even in the sacra privata. The evidence of
the extant records of the Fratres Arvales suggests an even more active
role for the Collegium Pontificum, although this evidence dates from
the Principate. I know of one Republican example of an augur being
disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum. What this suggests is that
we need a great deal more research focusing precisely on the
relationships between the various collegia before we attempt to
finally define them in NR law, and research which uses the full
context of the relevant ancient sources informed by the best modern
scholarship.

It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped until it
is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command of the
ancient sources.

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47915 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Quirites,

Good discussion bellow, but I just make a remark that time, pontifices
were elected by the Comitia. So, in certain sense, this power bellow
came from the Comitia, called under the auspices of the magistrates.
So, on Ancient, the people already had a chance to have pontifices
elected according their wishes. There weren´t a Church that cooptated
its members and taught ´the infidels of the Religio´ on the People the
truth. If we suppose the Ancient CP had such power even to disrupt the
life of the Comitia (elected), Magistrates (elected) and Senate
(indirectly elected throught the magistrates´ elections), this power
of the members came from the People as well. In certain sense, the
same power to disrupt that came from the Tribunes.

Sometimes we must remember this since History may be our worst enemy
if we adopt ´half-Historical´ measures.

We have two NR. The saecular NR of the magistrates. And the holy NR of
the priests. One cannot intervene with the other. It is Middle Ages
concept. And it causes lots of troubles. Neither the magistrates
really govern, neither the Religio really is taught.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

2006/12/1, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...>:
> Scaurus quiritibus SPD.
>
> I posted this earlier to the CP list and thought the ML might be
> interested in it.
>
> The proposal for "reforming" the religio raises some interesting
> issues, but as historical scholarship it is wanting. In attempting to
> shift administration of the religio from the Collegium Pontificum to
> the Senate and to restrict the Collegium Pontificum's role to merely
> issuing the responsa of individual pontifices to questions from the
> Senate and magistrates it both ignores pertinent ancient sources and
> reads the ancient sources it references selectively in such a way as
> to distort the facts.
>
> The most straightforward ancient statement of the relationship between
> the Collegium Pontificum is found in a letter from Cicero to Atticus
> in which he describes the session of the Senate at which the decision
> of the Collegium Pontificum regarding the consecration of a shrine on
> the site of Cicero's house was presented. Marcellinus, the presiding
> consul, demanded of M. Lucullus, the seniormost pontifex (Caesar, the
> Pontifex Maximus was in Gallia), an explanation of the reasons for the
> Collegium's decision. Lucullus refused to disclose the reasons and,
> according to Cicero, replied:
>
> M. Lucullus responded then about the decision of all his colleagues
> that the pontifices were the judges of the religio, as the senate was
> of the secular law; he and his colleagues had decided about the
> religio, now they would decide in the senate, with the senate, about
> the secular law. (Cic. Ad Att. 4, 2, 4)
>
> In short, the pontifex Lucullus claimed that the Collegium had an
> entirely different jurisdiction from the Senate, was not subordinate
> to the Senate, and need not justify its decisions to the Senate. The
> Collegium Pontificum had the same competency in matters of the religio
> that the Senate had in secular law. And, since all the members of the
> Collegium Pontificum were members of the Senate, they would
> participate in resolution of question of civil law regarding whether
> the land on which Cicero's house had stood should be deeded back to
> him, discussion of which by the Senate their decision made.
> Marcellinus did not dispute Lucullus' assertion of the relationship
> between Collegium Pontificum and Senate.
>
> It is odd that a set of arguments which claim to depend on Cicero's De
> domo sua should ignore reference to the wider context in Cicero's
> other writings. This is odder still because a claim that the
> Collegium Pontificum was a subordinate body which merely advised the
> Senate is belied by the clear evidence of De domo sua itself. Brief
> summarized, Publius Clodius had had a member of the Collegium
> Pontificum consecrate a shrine on the ruins of Cicero's home after
> Cicero went into exile. On his return Cicero applied to the Senate
> for restoration of his house. The Senate referred the matter to the
> Collegium Pontificum for trial on the ground that the question of
> ownership of the land could not be resolved until the validity of the
> consecration on it was determined. The Senate, thus, referred the
> matter to the Collegium precisely because the Senate was incompetent
> to decide the matter of sacral law. This referral was a reflection of
> separate jurisdictions, a point to which Cicero makes reference in the
> oration. The entire Collegium, minus the absent Pontifex Maximus, sat
> in judgment.
>
> There is another factor which the proposal ignores. In the entire
> corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of the
> Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a decretum
> independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or defied
> by the Senate or any magistrate. Indeed, Cicero alludes to the
> Senate's uniform deference to the Collegium Pontificum in religious
> matters. If the proposers were to guarantee that the Nova Roman
> Senate will never fail to defer to the Nova Roman Collegium Pontificum
> in any matter pertaining to the religio, it would certainly better
> accord with the historical sources.
>
> The "reform" proposal makes much of the fact that Livy usually refers
> to the Collegium Pontificum in his histories in terms of matters being
> referred to the Collegium by the Senate or magistrates or opinions
> being sought of the Collegium by the Senate or magistrates. The
> reason for this is very straightforward: Livy's principal interest is
> in the activities of the Senate and magistrates. Religious matters
> are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in Livy's
> narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates. To
> infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> information service for the Senate and magistrates is methodologically
> incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does cite
> instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent action
> and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action. The
> notion that pontifices only issued individual responsa in reply to
> questions from the Senate and magistrates is a function of looking
> only at cases where questions were asked of individual pontifices.
> Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in response
> to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum, decretum
> collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth. The authors of the proposal
> have simply ignored this philological evidence.
>
> It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this fallacious
> claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> pontifices. In his De haruspicum responsis Cicero twice refers to
> quora needed for pontifical decisions:
>
> Does there exist so large religious scruple from which we are not
> released in our hesitations and our largest religious fears by the
> answer and the word of only a P. Servilius and only a M. Lucullus? In
> connection with the public ceremonies, great games, worship of the
> household gods and our mother Vesta, in connection with the sacrifice
> which is made for the safety of the Roman people, which three
> pontifices decide, that has always appeared to the Roman people with
> the Senate and to the immortal Gods themselves to be holy enough,
> august enough, religious enough. (Cic. Har. Resp. 12)
>
> And again:
>
> I affirm that, never since the sacra were constituted, the antiquity
> of which is the same as that of the city, on any thing, not even on a
> capital action against Vestal Virgins, never did the college make an
> assessment in so great number. Although for the investigation of a
> crime, it matters that a great number is present – for, indeed, the
> decision of the pontifices has the power of judges -- but the
> assuagement of a religious scruple can justifiably be made by only one
> experienced pontifex - which, in a capital lawsuit, would be cruel and
> unjust - you will discover, however, that the pontifices carried a
> judgment on my house in greater number than for the ceremonies of the
> Virgins. (Cic. Har. Resp. 13)
>
> If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual responsa by
> individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is clear
> that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his designate)
> to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of the
> Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all the
> Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> serious matters – the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or incestum,
> the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. – required a larger
> number of pontifices still and their collective action. What Cicero
> presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is starkly
> contradictory to the proposed "reform."
>
> The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> suppression of the Bacchanalia. This rests on a fundamental
> misunderstanding of the character of the threat posed by the
> Bacchanalia. Neither modern nor ancient scholarship presents the
> suppression of the Bacchanalia as a religious matter. What sparked
> senatorial action was the occurrence of murders by poisoning,
> falsification of wills, kidnapping, and general social disorder under
> the guise of a foreign religion. These were secular criminal matters
> pertaining to the maintenance of law and order – such matters were
> always under the purview of the Senate rather than the Collegium
> Pontificum. The Bacchanalia was suppressed because it was cover for
> widespread crime and disorder. If the Religio Romana had ever been
> used as a guise for the commission of murder, forgery, or riot, it
> would have been a matter for the Senate, not the Collegium.
> Furthermore, Livy's account is contextualized by his constant focus on
> the Senate and magistrates. He does not mention the Collegium
> Pontificum, but that does not mean that members of Collegium did not
> participate in the Senate debates on dealing with the Bacchanales –
> all the pontifices were senators and Livy does not single out the
> remarks of individual senators in his account. In short, the
> suppression of the Bacchanalia is irrelevant to the "reform" proposal.
>
> The proposal is also questionable in making the four major collegia
> independent. There is no scholarship which denies the right of the
> Collegium Pontificum in antiquity to discipline other priesthoods in
> matters of caerimoniae, even in the sacra privata. The evidence of
> the extant records of the Fratres Arvales suggests an even more active
> role for the Collegium Pontificum, although this evidence dates from
> the Principate. I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum. What this suggests is that
> we need a great deal more research focusing precisely on the
> relationships between the various collegia before we attempt to
> finally define them in NR law, and research which uses the full
> context of the relevant ancient sources informed by the best modern
> scholarship.
>
> It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped until it
> is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command of the
> ancient sources.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47916 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
How absolutely typical of Merula to send nothing but a personal jab
and a whine.

If this sort of thing is the kind of message that citizens post here,
I despair.

M. Lucretius Agricola

P.s. Hey, this is fun! Am I playing the game right?

P.p.s I thought everyone had tired of this sort of crack. Can we
please have an end to it?


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Kirsteen Wright"
<kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
> >
> > And here is a partial list; how tiresome.
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > --
>
>
> How absolutely typical of Maior to sned nothing but a bibliography
and avoid
> answering a single question. If that is who Nova roma wants as a
Tribune - I
> despair.
>
> Flavia Lucilla Merula
>
> Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47917 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Kal. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Kalendis Decembribus; haec dies nefastus est.

"Night surprised them while they were lamenting over their situation
rather than consulting how to meet it. The different temperaments of
the men came out; some exclaimed: "Let us break through the
barricades, scale the mountain slopes, force our way through the
forest, try every way where we can carry arms. Only let us get at the
enemy whom we have beaten for now nearly thirty years; all places will
be smooth and easy to a Roman fighting against the perfidious
Samnite." Others answered: "Where are we to go? How are we to get
there? Are we preparing to move the mountains from their seat? How
will you get at the enemy as long as these peaks hang over us? Armed
and unarmed, brave and cowardly we are all alike trapped and
conquered. The enemy will not even offer us the chance of an
honourable death by the sword, he will finish the war without moving
from his seat." Indifferent to food, unable to sleep, they talked in
this way through the night. Even the Samnites were unable to make up
their minds what to do under such fortunate circumstances. It was
unanimously agreed to write to Herennius, the captain-general's
father, and ask his advice. He was now advanced in years and had given
up all public business, civil as well as military, but though his
physical powers were failing his intellect was as sound and clear as
ever. He had already heard that the Roman armies were hemmed in
between the two passes at the Caudine Forks, and when his son's
courier asked for his advice he gave it as his opinion that the whole
force ought to be at once allowed to depart uninjured. This advice was
rejected and the courier was sent back to consult him again. He now
advised that they should every one be put to death. On receiving these
replies, contradicting each other like the ambiguous utterances of an
oracle, his son's first impression was that his father's mental powers
had become impaired through his physical weakness. However, he yielded
to the unanimous wish and invited his father to the council of war.
The old man, we are told, at once complied and was conveyed in a wagon
to the camp. After taking his seat in the council, it became clear
from what he said that he had not changed his mind, but he explained
his reasons for the advice he gave. He believed that by taking the
course he first proposed, which he considered the best, he was
establishing a durable peace and friendship with a most powerful
people in treating them with such exceptional kindness; by adopting
the second he was postponing war for many generations, for it would
take that time for Rome to recover her strength painfully and slowly
after the loss of two armies. There was no third course. When his son
and the other chiefs went on to ask him what would happen if a middle
course were taken, and they were dismissed unhurt but under such
conditions as by the rights of war are imposed on the vanquished, he
replied: 'That is just the policy which neither procures friends nor
rids us of enemies. Once let men whom you have exasperated by
ignominious treatment live and you will find out your mistake. The
Romans are a nation who know not how to remain quiet under defeat.
Whatever disgrace this present extremity burns into their souls will
rankle there for ever, and will allow them no rest till they have made
you pay for it many times over.'" - Livy, History of Rome 9.3


"I begin to sing about Poseidon, the great god, mover of the earth and
fruitless sea, god of the deep who is also lord of Helicon and wide
Aegae. A two-fold office the gods allotted you, O Shaker of the Earth,
to be a tamer of horses and a saviour of ships!" - Homeric Hymn to
Poseidon II.1-5

"Neptuno has ago gratias meo patrono, qui salsis locis incolit
piscolentis, quom me ex suis locis pulchre ornatum expedivit, reducem
et tempulis, plurima praeda onustum salute horiae." (Thanks be to
Neptune my patron, who dwells in the fish-teeming salt sea, for
speeding me homeward from his sacred abode, well laden and in a good
hour) - Plautus, Rodens 906-910

"Hear, Poseidon, ruler of the sea profound, whose liquid grasp begirds
the solid ground; who, at the bottom of the stormy main, dark and
deep-bosomed holdest they watery reign. Thy awful hand the brazen
trident bears, and sea's utmost bound thy will reveres. Thee I invoke,
whose steeds the foam divide, from whose dark locks the briny waters
glide; shoe voice, loud sounding through the roaring deep, drives all
its billows in a raging heap; when fiercely riding through the boiling
sea, thy hoarse command the trembling waves obey. Earth-shaking,
dark-haired God, the liquid plains, the third division, fate to thee
ordains. `Tis thine, cerulean daimon, to survey, well-pleased, the
monsters of the ocean play. Confirm earth's basis, and with prosperous
gales waft ships along, and swell the spacious sails; add gentle
peace, and fair-haired health beside, and pour abundance in a
blameless tide." - Orphic Hymn 17 to Poseidon

Today is held in honor of the god Neptune, known to the Greeks as
Poseidon. Neptune is the second-born son of Cronus, ruler of the race
of gods known as The Titans, and his wife, the Titan-goddess of
fertility, Rhea. Fearing that he would be dethroned by one of his
offspring just as he had overthrown his own father Ouranos, Cronus
imprisoned each of his own offspring in Tartarus, the darkest section
of Hades, the Olympian underworld, as soon as he or she was born.
Appalled, the children's mother Rhea gave birth to Zeus without
Cronus's knowledge and gave him to the primeval Earth goddess Gaea to
be raised in secret. The adult Zeus freed his siblings and led them in
a successful revolt against Cronus and the Titans.

While it is believed that Neptune was among the offspring of Cronus
and Rhea imprisoned in Tartarus until later adulthood, Neptune, like
Zeus, had actually escaped this fate when his mother Rhea gave birth
to him in Mantineia, Arcadia (in the land known now as Greece). Rhea
hid Neptune who was then raised by other gods on the island of Rhodes
who taught him how to wield his mystical powers just as the Cyclopes
taught Zeus how to wield his own. Approached by the adult Zeus,
Neptune helped him free their other siblings and gather allies against
Cronus and the other Titans. The war against the Titans lasted for a
full decade ending with Zeus and his faction emerging victorious.

After Zeus became ruler of the pocket dimension of Olympus and of the
race of Olympian gods, he forged covenants with his elder brothers
Neptune and Pluto. Pluto, while still subject to Zeus's edicts, was
allowed to become the king of the Olympian underworld without any
interference from Zeus concerning the internal affairs of his kingdom.
Likewise, Neptune was allowed free reign over the vast oceans and the
various water-gods occupying the then ancient Grecian sphere of
influence. As a symbol of his station as the prime sea-god Neptune
carries an enchanted trident of various properties.

Neptune took as his wife the goddess Amphitrite, a daughter of the
elder water deities Nereus and Doris. He and Amphitrite had two
daughters Rhode and Benthiscya and a son Triton whose godly power
enabled him to assume the form of a merman. However, Neptune was
similar to his younger brother Zeus in that he had several affairs
with both mortal Earth women and Olympian goddesses and thus fathered
numerous offspring. Like Zeus, his children were sometimes born as
mortals or immortals. By his union with the Gorgon Medusa he fathered
the warrior Chrysaor and the magical flying horse, Pegasus. Akin to
Zeus who transformed himself into Amphitryon of Troezen to mate with
his wife Alcmena who became the mother of the demigod Hercules,
Neptune once disguised himself as the husband of the mortal woman
Aethra and fathered the Athenian hero Theseus. Other various offspring
of Neptune's include: Eumolpus, the Giant Sinis, the Cyclopes
Polyphemus, Orion, King Amycus, the shape-shifting god Proteus,
Agenor, Belus, Pelias, and Busiris who once became the King of Egypt.
Poseidon also had two twin giant sons, Otus and Ephialtes, who once
attempted to storm Olympus and overthrow Zeus and the Olympians before
meeting their deaths at each other's own hands in a hunting accident.

One of the most infamous affairs of Neptune involves his sister,
Demeter, Olympian goddess of the harvest. Neptune pursued Demeter who,
although first resisted his advances, eventually submitted to him. The
pair united, Demeter in the form of a mare and Neptune in the form of
a horse, and became the parents of Arion, the god of horses and
Despoena, the goddess of fruit.

Neptune was known to quarrel with his fellow Olympians to act as the
patron of particular Greek cities. For example, the sea-god was once
involved in a competition between himself and his niece, the goddess
of war Athena, for the city of Athens. To convince the people to name
the city after him and make him their patron god, Neptune used his
magical trident to produce a flowing spring. However, Athena won as a
result of giving the Athenians the far more useful olive tree (the
flowing spring was salt water). Neptune could also be a very moody
sea-god and at times used his powers to create earthquakes, floods and
storms to inflict fear and/or punishment on people as revenge. Though
difficult at times, Neptune could be cooperative as it was he who
aided the Greeks during the Trojan War before Zeus forbade the
Olympians from participating in it. After the Trojan War ended,
Neptune became angered against the hero Odysseus also known as
Ulysses, when he blinded the sea-god's son, the Cyclopes Polyphemus.
In his rage against this act Neptune saw to it that Odysseus's journey
back to Ithaca was full of trials and difficulties. Indeed it took
Odysseus 10 years to reach Ithaca after he and his men had departed
from Troy.


Today is also dedicated to the goddess Pietas. Pietas is usually
translated as "duty" or "devotion," and it simultaneously suggests
duty to the gods and duty to family - which is expanded to duty to the
community and duty to the state thanks to the analogy between the
family and the state, conventional in the ancient world. Vergil's hero
Aeneas embodies this virtue, and is particularly emblematic of it in
book II of the Aeneid when he flees burning Troy bearing his father on
his back and carrying his household gods. Pietas' symbol is the stork.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Plautus, Wikipedia
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47918 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
On 12/1/06, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
>
> How absolutely typical of Merula to send nothing but a personal jab
> and a whine.


LOL. Thank you. I'm so glad my efforts are appreciated <VBG>

But seriously, on the one hand, it would be nice to have a question answered
occasionally. On the other it might be quite fun to keep a tally of how many
she avoids. There would have to be some sort of prize for the winner - i.e.
the citizen who collects the most unanswered questions.

Merula

Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47919 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
You clearly have far more free time than I do.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Kirsteen Wright"
<kirsteen.falconsfan@...> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/06, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
> >
> > How absolutely typical of Merula to send nothing but a personal jab
> > and a whine.
>
>
> LOL. Thank you. I'm so glad my efforts are appreciated <VBG>
>
> But seriously, on the one hand, it would be nice to have a question
answered
> occasionally. On the other it might be quite fun to keep a tally of
how many
> she avoids. There would have to be some sort of prize for the winner
- i.e.
> the citizen who collects the most unanswered questions.
>
> Merula
>
> Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47920 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Question on Reform of the Religio-You are still being evasive, domi
Flavius Galerius Aurelianus M. Hortensia Maior sal.

"And here is a partial list; how tiresome." A partial list of books you
have in your possession, a partial list of books you have read; or a partial
list of books that you pulled off a bibliography somewhere? Many of the books
on your list have little to do with Republican forms of the Sacra et Religio
and more with the Imperial cults and practices. Also a fair number of these
have to do with foreign cults rather than the native Italian ones.

Are you stating publicly, domina, that you are capable of of fluent
translation (not speaking) in German & French and are willing to work towards
improving the quantity of knowledge for Nova Roma? If this is true, then the
Pontifex Maximus, myself, and several members of the CP would likely get down on
our knees and beg your assistance. However, I have my doubts that you are that
capable, due to your history of avoiding direct questions.

You have once again sidestepped a number of direct questions about the
Epulones, the Fetiales, the flamen minores, and the Arval Brethren. Are you ever
going to answer my questions, domina, or are you going to continue to be
evasive?

I continue to have serious doubts whether you should be elected Tribune or
if you are capable of answering direct questions about breathing a little
practicality into the Religio Romana. You do remember that you said about the
Romans being practical?

I await your direction answers to my direct question that I have asked
twice. And yes, I am publicly backing you into a corner on this issue.

Vale.


M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
Fl. is the abbreviation for Flavius; not F.

And here is a partial list; how tiresome.
M. Hortensia Maior


The Roman Games Allison Futrell

Author Scheid, John.

Title Religion et piété à Rome / John Scheid.
Imprint Paris : Editions la Découverte, 1985.

The Gods of Ancient Rome Robert Turcan
The Cult of Sol Invictus Gaston H. Halsberghe
Helios und Sol; Kulte und Ikonographie des griecheschen und
romischen sonnengottes Petra Mattern
„Aeneas' Invocation to Sol' JSTOR Karl Galinsky
Numa and the Pythagoreans" JSTOR K.R Prowse
"The Sun which did not rise in the East" Steven Hijmans BABesch
(Bulletin Antieke Beshaving) 71 (1996)
"Le culte du Soleil en Syrie a l'epoque Romane" Henri Seyrig
[Antiquites Syriennes, 95] Syria 48 (1971)
Herakles and Hercules ed: Louis Rawlings & Hugh Bowden
The Myth of Herakles in Ancient Greece Mark W. Padilla

Les cultes orientaux dans le monde romain : Turcan, Robert.; Davis

Dans le sillage de Rome : religion, poésie, humanisme / Robert
Schilling.
La religion romaine de Vénus : depuis les origines jusqu'au
temps d'Auguste / Robert Schilling
Rites, cultes, dieux de Rome / Robert Schilling
Fortuna : recherches sur le culte de la Fortune à Rome et dans le
monde romain des origines à la mort de César / Jacqueline Champeaux
Studien zum altitalischen und altrömischen Marskult und Marsmythos,
[von] Udo W. Scholz.
The pagan god : popular religion in the Greco-Roman Near East / by
Javier Teixidor
The pantheon of Palmyra / Javier Teixidor
Rome in the East : the transformation of an empire / Warwick Ball.
Corpus cultus Cybelae Attidisque (CCCA) / M. J. Vermaseren.
Cybele and Attis : the myth and the cult / Maarten J.
Vermaseren ; [translated from the Dutch by A. M. H. Lemmers].
Cybele, Attis and related cults : essays in memory of M.J.
Vermaseren / edited by Eugene N. Lane.
In search of god the mother : the cult of Anatolian Cybele / Lynn E.
Roller.
Soteriology and mystic aspects in the cult of Cybele and Attis /
Giulia Sfameni Gasparro.
Rome in the late Republic : problems and interpretations / Mary
Beard & Michael Crawford.
On the Syrian goddess / by J.L. Lightfoot ; edited with
introduction, translation, and commentary by J.L. Lightfoot
Studies in Lucian's De Syria dea / by R. A. Oden, Jr.
Imprint Missoula, Mont. : Published by Scholars Press for Harvard
Semitic Museum, c1977.
On the Pythagorean way of life / Iamblichus ; text, translation, and
notes by John Dillon, Jackson Hershbell.
The exhortation to philosophy : including the letters of Iamblichus,
and Proclus commentary on the Chaldean oracles / Iamblichus ;
translated by Thomas Moore Johnson with an introduction by Joscelyn
Godwin ; edited by Stephen Neuville.
Ancient philosophy, mystery, and magic : Empedocles and Pythagorean
tradition / Peter Kingsley
On the Nature of the Gods Cicero
Religions of Rome Beard, North & Price
La magie dans l'antiquité gréco-romaine : idéologie et pratique /
Fritz Graf.
Greek and Roman necromancy / Daniel Ogden.
Magic and magicians in the Greco-Roman world : Dickie, Matthew
Magic, witchcraft, and ghosts in the Greek and Roman worlds : a
sourcebook / Daniel Ogden.
Author Rüpke, Jörg.

Title Fasti sacerdotum : die Mitglieder der Priesterschaften und
das sakrale Funktionspersonal römischer, griechischer,
orientalischer und jüdisch-christlicher Kulte in der Stadt Rom von
300 v. Chr. bis 499 n. Chr. / von Jörg Rüpke ; unter Beifügung einer
CD zur Erschliessung des prosopographischen Materials von Bernd
Nüsslein ; unter Mitarbeit von Helmut Pannke.

> F. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
>
> M. Hortensia Maior is very good at her constant harping on the
colleges
> returning to their historical Roman form without being very
specific about what
> period of the Republic she is talking about. I emailed her some
questions
> about how she feels that perpetuating certain sacred offices and
colleges that
> have no function in Nova Roma would improve the overall Romanitas
of our
> group. She has yet to respond to my questions but as we all know
from the
> majority of her most recent posts, she is far more interested in
demagoguery &
> rabble rousing than accuracy or function.
>
> For instance, I have suggested on the CP list and the ML that the
College of
> Epulones be limited to their original number of three (tresviri
epulones) as
> first established in 197 BCE. I believe that most well-informed
Nova Romans
> will recognize that Sulla and Caesar increased their numbers so
that more
> public feasts would be held to increase their political popularity
with the
> urban population. I believe that even Maior would have to admit
that neither
> Sulla nor Iulius Caesar are examples of preservers of the Roman
Republic.
>
> Also, Maior did not respond to my question about why Nova Roma
should
> continue to have a College of Fetiales when they were
particularly concerned with
> the rituals involved in declaring war and ensuring that the war
was just. So
> far no one in the Sacred Colleges including the only Fetialis,
Metellus
> Pontifex, or Apollonius Cordus has leaped upon me verbally and
tell me that I am
> mistaken in my argument.
>
> Maior and others (just who are these others of whom she speaks?)
posts that
> the Romans were conservative and very practical. They were both,
of course,
> but they were also adaptable and willing to change. The Religio
Romana of
> the Late Republic was not the same as that of the Early
Republic. New gods
> were brought into Rome over the centuries, including the Magna
Mater, Herakles,
> Apollo, Venus Erycina, Mithras, Isis, Serapis, and many other
Gods; usually
> because of interpretations of the Sibylline Books. Which were
sold to a Roman
> King of Etruscan origin by the Sibyl of Cumae (a Greek oracle
from a Greek
> colony in Italia, whose books were written in Greek hexameter).
>
> Actually, there is hardly anything left of the original rituals of
the
> Regnum or early Republic. We have a very limited idea about who
Falacer was or
> His exact sphere of influence. There are two Flamen Minores that
have not been
> added to our numbers; these are theorized to be the Flamen
Neptunalis and
> the Flamen Fontanalis. The basis for the belief in these two
flamen are that
> the Fontinalia and the Neptunalia were two of the most ancient
festivals of
> Rome of the Kings and the Early Republic.
>
> Maior is always pushing Scullard and Scheid as two very good books
on the
> Religio Romana. I agree with her that they are very good works
but they are
> only two of many good works. It may be that these are the only
two books Maior
> has ever read on the Religio Romana, but I have no evidence to
support this
> hypothesis. She also appears to believe that everyone needs to
take a course
> or two at the Academia Thule to solve all their misunderstandings
and
> misconceptions about Roman history and religion. The AT is a
great asset to NR and
> will likely become a great asset to all academia but there are
other routes.
> One of my favorites is the Inter-Library Loan.
>
> She doesn't mention the works of R. Turcan, Beard & North,
Spaeth, Adkins,
> Vanggaard (great book, Cordus, glad you recommended it), W.
Fowler, G.
> Dumezil, M. Hoffman Lewis, C. Kerenyi (very good theories of the
caerimonae of the
> Flamen Dapalis), W. Robertson Smith (Samnite religion), C. G.
Leland (Etruscan
> religion), J. Ferguson, R.M. Ogilvie (one of my favorite small
volumes), or
> JSTOR.
>
> So at this point in my diatribe and obvious distaste for Maior's
multiple
> inaccuracies and spurious arguments, I hurl her accusations of
what she believes
> my wishes for the Religio are, back in her teeth. This is what
I actually
> believe, domina:
>
> There is no point in restoring the Four Sacred Colleges and some
of the
> associated colleges back to their original forms because some
offices no longer
> have a purpose or even a shred of usefulness. The Religio Romana
is about
> reconstruction AND revitalization to make it a LIVING instrument
of the Sacra et
> Religion. The current members of the Collegium Pontificum would
better
> serve Nova Roma by creating De Libris Pontificiis so that all of
the Senate and
> People of Nova Roma would be able to honor Dii Immortales and
increase Them.
> If Nova Roma and the cultores deorum do not adapt, improvise, and
overcome by
> active creation AND reconstruct that which is useful to our
current lives;
> we may find ourselves with a totally dead and useless but oh-so-
very
> historically accurate Religio.
> Hoc opus, hic labor est.
>
> To M. Hortensia Maior - Ni dheanfach an saol capall ras d'asai.
>
> ============ ====== ====== ====== ====== =
>
>
> the post was by Fl. Galerius Aurelianus who was posing the issue
to me. He
> differs with A. Apollonius Cordus, myself and others who wish to
see the
> Colleges return to their historical Republican form, which is the
purpose of Nova
> Roma.
>
> It's very important to read republican history & understand the
Roman point
> of view before forming opinions. Romans were very conservative
and very
> practical.
>
> The Romans celebrated feriae of gods who's purpose & sometimes
even sex
> they'd forgotten! the Furrinalia, the Volcanalia, the Parilia
etc. They were very
> conscious of the antiquity of these rites & preserved them.
Antiquarians
> such as Varro & Nigidius Figulus wrote
> volumes on Roman religion.
>
> So we must develop a Roman sensibility which preserves the past &
is
> pragmatic at the same time.Reading John Scheid's
book "Introduction to the Roman
> Religion' is of great help. Another great book is H.H.
Scullard's "Festivals and
> Ceremonies of the Roman Republic."
>
> bene vale in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47921 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Flavius Galerius Aurelianus SPD.

The esteemed Consul-Elect Faustus is not entirely correct in his statement:

"Good discussion bellow, but I just make a remark that time, pontifices
were elected by the Comitia. So, in certain sense, this power bellow
came from the Comitia, called under the auspices of the magistrates.
So, on Ancient, the people already had a chance to have pontifices
elected according their wishes."

There was never a popular election of pontifices, augures, or other sacred
offices. A list of candidates to fill vacated offices was offered by the
particular college to the comitia and a select number of the 35 tribes elected a
person off the list that have been offered. No one could simply run for a
sacred office and this election process only occurred for certain periods of
time in the Mid to Late Republic. There has been some question as to whether
the practice was introduced in an effort by members of the various colleges to
support certain political parties or candidates. For instance, Iulius
Caesar's name was put forward at one point as a candidate for the flamen Dialis.
Were he to have been elected to this office it would mean that he could
never leave Rome for more than three day & would have killed his military and
political career.

Also, there is another point that I must disagree with in the Consul-Elect's
post:

"We have two NR. The saecular NR of the magistrates. And the holy NR of the
priests. One cannot intervene with the other. It is Middle Ages concept. And
it causes lots of troubles. Neither the magistrates really govern, neither the
Religio really is taught."

One of the two principal points for which Nova Roma was founded was the
reconstruction and restoration of the Religio Romana. The other was for the
establishment of a micronation. The Senate and People have decided that the
micronational ideal was a bit far fetched and have now decided that we are a
model "Res Publica." However, the other point stands intact for the present.
All magistrates and members of the Senate take an oath to honor the Gods and
never to perform any act or take any action against Them. Pontiffs and other
sacred offices do not take an oath that it is required for them to run for
public office. As such, I believe that since the elected magistrates and the
Senate are oathbound to participate in the public practices of the Religio
Romana, then there is no genuine separation between the sacred and secular
aspects of Nova Roma.

Vale.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47922 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Scaurus Fausto SPD.

Election of pontifices other than the Pontifex Maximus began only with
the Lex Domitia of 104 BCE. Prior to that they were coopted by the
collegium. Furthermore, the Lex Domitia was rescinded by Sulla, who
returned to cooptation, then restored by Caesar, then rescinded again
by Antonius, so the model you are suggesting did not even hold for the
entire final seventy years of the Republic. What I am suggesting
isn't medieval; it's the way things worked for the overwhelming
majority of the Roman Republic's existence.

The problem is that you think of the Collegium Pontificum as a
disruption. No Roman of the Republican period thought that. Another
part of the problem is that you are a modernist and that colours your
thinking about these issues completely. And you apparently have no
respect for the best modern scholarship on these issues, Van Haeperen
and Bouchet-Leclerq, whose studies of the Collegium Pontificum reach
conclusions similar to mine. This is, in turn, complicated by the
fact that you belong to a political faction in NR which regards the
Collegium Pontificum as its political enemy, so you support this sham
"reform" because you think it will obtain the political end you want,
and you are either prepared to distort historical facts to support
your position or are so unfamiliar with the historical facts that they
seem to matter not at all.

Your "democratic" theory of Roman governance with power arising from
the people in Comitia is utterly ahistorical. You can count on two
hands the number of elections in the Comitia Centuriata that went
beyond the third class, much less to the capite censi who constituted
the overwhelming majority of the Roman population, in the entirety of
the Republic. Elections in the Comitia Tributa almost never went
beyond a simple majority of the tribes, and those in tribes beyond
that simple majority never got the chance to vote at all -- and the
overwhelming majority of Rome's population was in Suburana rather than
the much smaller rural tribes. Even the Concilium Plebis followed the
same electoral system as the Comitia Tributa with the same result --
effectively disenfranchising the majority of plebeians. The authority
of the Roman government didn't derive from the people, most of whom
never got to cast a vote in their lives because the election was over
before they were ever called. That authority derived from an economic
oligarchy, partly patrician, more plebeian. All this "democratic"
theorising is your modernist pipedream, a concatenation of Locke and
Mills. It has no basis in Roman history.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47923 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Salve, Aureliane,

"No one could simply run for a > sacred office and this election
process only occurred for certain periods of > time in the Mid to Late
Republic. "

Excuse-me, but our model of Roman Republic is based on the Middle
Republic. Early Republic didn´t had Praetores, Aediles et all. So,
there is really a pont here.

"All magistrates and members of the Senate take an oath to honor the Gods and
> never to perform any act or take any action against Them. Pontiffs and other
> sacred offices do not take an oath that it is required for them to run for
> public office. As such, I believe that since the elected magistrates and the
> Senate are oathbound to participate in the public practices of the Religio
> Romana, then there is no genuine separation between the sacred and secular
> aspects of Nova Roma."

Unfortunately No.
It is a false assumption that an oath can ´represent´ all the
religious duties of a magistrate on the Roman Republic.

A king on Middle Ages, as a religious man, had also to sworn faith oh
the Church and the ´official´ religio. The saecular power always had
to sworn obedience to the spiritual. However, the spiritual could
interfere on the saecular, but the same wasn´t true. Unfortunately,
this is also the state of affairs on this Republic.

I will keep this phrase "there is no genuine separation between the
sacred and secular > aspects of Nova Roma". The time is father of the
truth, I hope fervently in the eve of 2008 I am wrong. Recently, I saw
a proposal being voted against because ´it would make the Senate
interfere on the Religio´. For me, it is enough to say there is a gap.
The magistrates and the Senate shouldnt be passives on the Religio.

Again, this is a fact, there is a big gap between the People, the
Senate and the Magistrates and the way the Religio is handled in NR.
Again, neither the magistrates govern, neither the Religio is handled.
What we have on NR is a cisma.

We cannot deny the problem. What I see is a big popular pressure
boiling as the knowledge of Historical facts raises on the Republic.
We cannot deny the problem or the Republic will tear apart.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus


2006/12/1, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
>
> The esteemed Consul-Elect Faustus is not entirely correct in his statement:
>
> "Good discussion bellow, but I just make a remark that time, pontifices
> were elected by the Comitia. So, in certain sense, this power bellow
> came from the Comitia, called under the auspices of the magistrates.
> So, on Ancient, the people already had a chance to have pontifices
> elected according their wishes."
>
> There was never a popular election of pontifices, augures, or other sacred
> offices. A list of candidates to fill vacated offices was offered by the
> particular college to the comitia and a select number of the 35 tribes elected a
> person off the list that have been offered. No one could simply run for a
> sacred office and this election process only occurred for certain periods of
> time in the Mid to Late Republic. There has been some question as to whether
> the practice was introduced in an effort by members of the various colleges to
> support certain political parties or candidates. For instance, Iulius
> Caesar's name was put forward at one point as a candidate for the flamen Dialis.
> Were he to have been elected to this office it would mean that he could
> never leave Rome for more than three day & would have killed his military and
> political career.
>
> Also, there is another point that I must disagree with in the Consul-Elect's
> post:
>
> "We have two NR. The saecular NR of the magistrates. And the holy NR of the
> priests. One cannot intervene with the other. It is Middle Ages concept. And
> it causes lots of troubles. Neither the magistrates really govern, neither the
> Religio really is taught."
>
> One of the two principal points for which Nova Roma was founded was the
> reconstruction and restoration of the Religio Romana. The other was for the
> establishment of a micronation. The Senate and People have decided that the
> micronational ideal was a bit far fetched and have now decided that we are a
> model "Res Publica." However, the other point stands intact for the present.
> All magistrates and members of the Senate take an oath to honor the Gods and
> never to perform any act or take any action against Them. Pontiffs and other
> sacred offices do not take an oath that it is required for them to run for
> public office. As such, I believe that since the elected magistrates and the
> Senate are oathbound to participate in the public practices of the Religio
> Romana, then there is no genuine separation between the sacred and secular
> aspects of Nova Roma.
>
> Vale.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47924 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Scaurus Aureliano SPD.

The Lex Domitia required election of pontifices and augures (although
not flamines) in the Comitia Tributa by a majority of seventeen tribes
selected by lot for the election. They selected one or more
candidates (depending on the number of vacancies) from a panel put
forward by the Pontifex Maximus. The Lex Domitia arose from the
failure of a Domitius Ahenobarbus to achieve cooptation to a
pontificate held previously by a relative.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47925 From: Kirsteen Wright Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Question on Reform of the Religio
On 12/1/06, M. Lucretius Agricola <wm_hogue@...> wrote:
>
> You clearly have far more free time than I do.


Well since I'm off work long term and am more or less housebound with M.E.,
then unfortunately I probably do.

Merula

Chaos, confusion, disorder - my work here is done


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47926 From: wuffa2001 Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Salve

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@...> wrote:
>
> Quirites,
>
> Good discussion bellow, but I just make a remark that time, pontifices
> were elected by the Comitia.

M.C.replys:
you keep saying this but in fact they were only After 104 BCE, the
ordinary pontifices were also elected -



vale
So, in certain sense, this power bellow
> came from the Comitia, called under the auspices of the magistrates.
> So, on Ancient, the people already had a chance to have pontifices
> elected according their wishes. There weren�t a Church that cooptated
> its members and taught �the infidels of the Religio� on the People the
> truth. If we suppose the Ancient CP had such power even to disrupt the
> life of the Comitia (elected), Magistrates (elected) and Senate
> (indirectly elected throught the magistrates� elections), this power
> of the members came from the People as well. In certain sense, the
> same power to disrupt that came from the Tribunes.
>
> Sometimes we must remember this since History may be our worst enemy
> if we adopt �half-Historical� measures.
>
> We have two NR. The saecular NR of the magistrates. And the holy NR of
> the priests. One cannot intervene with the other. It is Middle Ages
> concept. And it causes lots of troubles. Neither the magistrates
> really govern, neither the Religio really is taught.
>
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> 2006/12/1, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...>:
> > Scaurus quiritibus SPD.
> >
> > I posted this earlier to the CP list and thought the ML might be
> > interested in it.
> >
> > The proposal for "reforming" the religio raises some interesting
> > issues, but as historical scholarship it is wanting. In attempting to
> > shift administration of the religio from the Collegium Pontificum to
> > the Senate and to restrict the Collegium Pontificum's role to merely
> > issuing the responsa of individual pontifices to questions from the
> > Senate and magistrates it both ignores pertinent ancient sources and
> > reads the ancient sources it references selectively in such a way as
> > to distort the facts.
> >
> > The most straightforward ancient statement of the relationship between
> > the Collegium Pontificum is found in a letter from Cicero to Atticus
> > in which he describes the session of the Senate at which the decision
> > of the Collegium Pontificum regarding the consecration of a shrine on
> > the site of Cicero's house was presented. Marcellinus, the presiding
> > consul, demanded of M. Lucullus, the seniormost pontifex (Caesar, the
> > Pontifex Maximus was in Gallia), an explanation of the reasons for the
> > Collegium's decision. Lucullus refused to disclose the reasons and,
> > according to Cicero, replied:
> >
> > M. Lucullus responded then about the decision of all his colleagues
> > that the pontifices were the judges of the religio, as the senate was
> > of the secular law; he and his colleagues had decided about the
> > religio, now they would decide in the senate, with the senate, about
> > the secular law. (Cic. Ad Att. 4, 2, 4)
> >
> > In short, the pontifex Lucullus claimed that the Collegium had an
> > entirely different jurisdiction from the Senate, was not subordinate
> > to the Senate, and need not justify its decisions to the Senate. The
> > Collegium Pontificum had the same competency in matters of the religio
> > that the Senate had in secular law. And, since all the members of the
> > Collegium Pontificum were members of the Senate, they would
> > participate in resolution of question of civil law regarding whether
> > the land on which Cicero's house had stood should be deeded back to
> > him, discussion of which by the Senate their decision made.
> > Marcellinus did not dispute Lucullus' assertion of the relationship
> > between Collegium Pontificum and Senate.
> >
> > It is odd that a set of arguments which claim to depend on Cicero's De
> > domo sua should ignore reference to the wider context in Cicero's
> > other writings. This is odder still because a claim that the
> > Collegium Pontificum was a subordinate body which merely advised the
> > Senate is belied by the clear evidence of De domo sua itself. Brief
> > summarized, Publius Clodius had had a member of the Collegium
> > Pontificum consecrate a shrine on the ruins of Cicero's home after
> > Cicero went into exile. On his return Cicero applied to the Senate
> > for restoration of his house. The Senate referred the matter to the
> > Collegium Pontificum for trial on the ground that the question of
> > ownership of the land could not be resolved until the validity of the
> > consecration on it was determined. The Senate, thus, referred the
> > matter to the Collegium precisely because the Senate was incompetent
> > to decide the matter of sacral law. This referral was a reflection of
> > separate jurisdictions, a point to which Cicero makes reference in the
> > oration. The entire Collegium, minus the absent Pontifex Maximus, sat
> > in judgment.
> >
> > There is another factor which the proposal ignores. In the entire
> > corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of the
> > Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> > Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a decretum
> > independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or defied
> > by the Senate or any magistrate. Indeed, Cicero alludes to the
> > Senate's uniform deference to the Collegium Pontificum in religious
> > matters. If the proposers were to guarantee that the Nova Roman
> > Senate will never fail to defer to the Nova Roman Collegium Pontificum
> > in any matter pertaining to the religio, it would certainly better
> > accord with the historical sources.
> >
> > The "reform" proposal makes much of the fact that Livy usually refers
> > to the Collegium Pontificum in his histories in terms of matters being
> > referred to the Collegium by the Senate or magistrates or opinions
> > being sought of the Collegium by the Senate or magistrates. The
> > reason for this is very straightforward: Livy's principal interest is
> > in the activities of the Senate and magistrates. Religious matters
> > are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in Livy's
> > narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates. To
> > infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> > information service for the Senate and magistrates is methodologically
> > incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does cite
> > instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent action
> > and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action. The
> > notion that pontifices only issued individual responsa in reply to
> > questions from the Senate and magistrates is a function of looking
> > only at cases where questions were asked of individual pontifices.
> > Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> > decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in response
> > to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum, decretum
> > collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth. The authors of the proposal
> > have simply ignored this philological evidence.
> >
> > It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this fallacious
> > claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> > pontifices. In his De haruspicum responsis Cicero twice refers to
> > quora needed for pontifical decisions:
> >
> > Does there exist so large religious scruple from which we are not
> > released in our hesitations and our largest religious fears by the
> > answer and the word of only a P. Servilius and only a M. Lucullus? In
> > connection with the public ceremonies, great games, worship of the
> > household gods and our mother Vesta, in connection with the sacrifice
> > which is made for the safety of the Roman people, which three
> > pontifices decide, that has always appeared to the Roman people with
> > the Senate and to the immortal Gods themselves to be holy enough,
> > august enough, religious enough. (Cic. Har. Resp. 12)
> >
> > And again:
> >
> > I affirm that, never since the sacra were constituted, the antiquity
> > of which is the same as that of the city, on any thing, not even on a
> > capital action against Vestal Virgins, never did the college make an
> > assessment in so great number. Although for the investigation of a
> > crime, it matters that a great number is present � for, indeed, the
> > decision of the pontifices has the power of judges -- but the
> > assuagement of a religious scruple can justifiably be made by only one
> > experienced pontifex - which, in a capital lawsuit, would be cruel and
> > unjust - you will discover, however, that the pontifices carried a
> > judgment on my house in greater number than for the ceremonies of the
> > Virgins. (Cic. Har. Resp. 13)
> >
> > If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual responsa by
> > individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> > should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is clear
> > that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his designate)
> > to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of the
> > Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all the
> > Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> > serious matters � the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or incestum,
> > the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. � required a larger
> > number of pontifices still and their collective action. What Cicero
> > presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> > collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is starkly
> > contradictory to the proposed "reform."
> >
> > The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> > Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> > suppression of the Bacchanalia. This rests on a fundamental
> > misunderstanding of the character of the threat posed by the
> > Bacchanalia. Neither modern nor ancient scholarship presents the
> > suppression of the Bacchanalia as a religious matter. What sparked
> > senatorial action was the occurrence of murders by poisoning,
> > falsification of wills, kidnapping, and general social disorder under
> > the guise of a foreign religion. These were secular criminal matters
> > pertaining to the maintenance of law and order � such matters were
> > always under the purview of the Senate rather than the Collegium
> > Pontificum. The Bacchanalia was suppressed because it was cover for
> > widespread crime and disorder. If the Religio Romana had ever been
> > used as a guise for the commission of murder, forgery, or riot, it
> > would have been a matter for the Senate, not the Collegium.
> > Furthermore, Livy's account is contextualized by his constant focus on
> > the Senate and magistrates. He does not mention the Collegium
> > Pontificum, but that does not mean that members of Collegium did not
> > participate in the Senate debates on dealing with the Bacchanales �
> > all the pontifices were senators and Livy does not single out the
> > remarks of individual senators in his account. In short, the
> > suppression of the Bacchanalia is irrelevant to the "reform" proposal.
> >
> > The proposal is also questionable in making the four major collegia
> > independent. There is no scholarship which denies the right of the
> > Collegium Pontificum in antiquity to discipline other priesthoods in
> > matters of caerimoniae, even in the sacra privata. The evidence of
> > the extant records of the Fratres Arvales suggests an even more active
> > role for the Collegium Pontificum, although this evidence dates from
> > the Principate. I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> > disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum. What this suggests is that
> > we need a great deal more research focusing precisely on the
> > relationships between the various collegia before we attempt to
> > finally define them in NR law, and research which uses the full
> > context of the relevant ancient sources informed by the best modern
> > scholarship.
> >
> > It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped until it
> > is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command of the
> > ancient sources.
> >
> > Valete.
> >
> > Scaurus
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47927 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Scaurus, acuse me of anything, except of being a "modernist". I loath labels.
Few here are more devoted to the Roman Historical way than I.

"The problem is that you think of the Collegium Pontificum as a > disruption"

By Iove Optimus Maximus, may he punish me if I am lying, I assure no.
I think very much of the CP, and I cease not to praise many
pontifices. I just think the way NR is organized warps its true
mission.

"This is, in turn, complicated by the > fact that you belong to a
political faction in NR which regards the > Collegium Pontificum as
its political enemy, '

See the partisantism here... Stop to label, and - once on the life -
hear people. I think the accusation could be true if it changed way
"Political partisans uses the CP to fire on their political enemies".
I like many pontifices, Astur, Buteo, Metelus, Graecus, even you (only
when you stop to label people and act single-handled). So, it is not
true and offends me very much. Remember, when I was wrong about you, I
apologized publically.

What I get very sad, it is besides I am a very pious worshipper, I
will never ever get a priesthood because of this partisantism.

"so you support this sham > "reform" because you think it will obtain
the political end you want"

What political end I want? Only the Historical ways of this Republic
and a real government. Nec plus ultra. And there is a Historical
government without CP? NEVER!

'Your "democratic" theory of Roman governance with power arising from>
the people in Comitia is utterly ahistorical.'

I agree. I never ever had ´Democratic´ conceptions of the romans
government. Alas, I all times on this Republic defended the
equilibrium of the three perfect systens of Aristotles. A bit of
Polybios I confess. If I defend a bit more the Comitia because I think
it is weak on NR. Just that. (but I read somewhere else the romans
election usually are decided on the last centuries). And, the
´Democratic´ on Ancient is not the modern ´Democratic´.

You have a bad anti-scientific mania to put labels. What will you
accuse me next, to be Marian or Caesarian?

" The authority > of the Roman government didn't derive from the people,"

It derives from the gods, whom allow the Comitias to be called. Even
the Curiata to choose the king. But the interdependence in Ancient
Rome was so high (and so fascinating) that even the ´power of the
people´ came from the magistrates and Senate. It is fascinating.

Scaurus, you get angry when you find opposition. Stop to label people,
please. I am sure you are a great man and scholar, but you raise
enemity by this way. The way you adress seems if people doesn´t agree
with you, a fire will be flared to burn them at the stake. Let´s
respect each other. I´m terribly sad the gap between the magistratures
and the Religio. I am the only here? Is this all a conspiration of
´opposition´? No, please, you know...

Anyway, this is a big subject on the future I´d like to discuss with
you deep and privately. Let´s not flare against each other and break
the bridges for communication. I truly admire your deep knowledge and
think you are a great citizen to NR, and the Republic only will grow
with such intelectual discussions. That is why I choose the words of
Salustius "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt"
as inspiration for next year.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


2006/12/1, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Scaurus Fausto SPD.
>

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47928 From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: IMPORTANT Election Notice - C. Centuriata
Avete Omnes;

I have received information from the webmaster that a problem has
occured with how the Cista is sending votes to the Diribitors.

The program is misreading some information and garbling the results.

Any votes cast before 7am CST today that weren't entirely-yes or
entirely-no have been spoiled and must be resubmitted.

I'll look through the votes received thus far and see if I can
determine, which are affected.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Diribitor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47929 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Austrorientalis event in Acworth & Atlanta, GA on Dec. 2 & 3
F. Galerius Aurelianus Propraetor Austrorientalis S.P.D.

Well this is the weekend for all Nova Romans & others interested in
Roman history, culture, and society to join us for a weekend of
conviviality.

Members of the Nashville & Lebanon, TN curiae (Metellus Pontifex,
Violentilla Galeria, Mania Galeria, Antonia Sempronia and I)
will be leaving Lebanon by no later than 1:00 PM on Saturday, Dec.
2. We will arrive in Ackworth, GA by no later than 5:00 p.m. (EST)
and make contact with Ap. Galerius Aurelianus, Praefectus Regio
Georgia.

We will be staying at:

Super 8 Motel in Acworth
4970 Old Cowan Rd
Acworth, GA 30101
770-966-9700
$59.00 for four persons

Dinner will be held at Fusco's Via Romana Trattoria about 6:00 p.m.
followed by a long convivium at the trattoria. Mike Fusco would
like any who wish to dress in Roman clothing. The address is:

Fusco's Via Romana Trattoria
4815A South Main Street NW
Acworth, GA 30101
770-974-1110

Sunday, Dec. 3, is for late rising, brunch, and then off to the
Fernbank Museum by opening at 12:00 p.m. Reservations can be made
on an individual basis to get your tickets. There will also be
displays by Roman military and gladitorial groups. See attached
notice. The address for the Museum is:

FERNBANK MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY
767 Clifton Road, NE • Atlanta, GA 30307-1221
Administration: 404.929.6300
Ticket Sales: 404.929.6400
Free parking available

This is another wonderful opportunity to meet your citizens here in
the province and make some contacts with the military and
gladiatorial reenactment community.

I look forward to your responses & to see you there.

Valete.

================================================

CELEBRATING ANCIENT EMPIRES
Annual Family Holiday Event
Sunday, December 3, noon to 5 p.m.

Ring in the holiday season with a mix of traditional holiday and
Roman-themed activities and performances, inspired by the special
exhibition, Imperial Rome. Members receive FREE Museum admission and
will save an additional $1 off the already-reduced member rate
during this event only! Click here to join today!

Scheduled Events*
Holiday Face Painting
Noon to 4:30 p.m., Great Hall
(lines close at 4:30 p.m.)

Appearances by Legio XI Claudia Pia Fideli
Noon to 5 p.m., Museum-wide

Ornament Station
Noon to 5 p.m., Great Hall

Hands-on Crafts
Noon to 5 p.m., Upper Level Conference Rooms

Holiday Tales Story Telling
12:15 p.m., 1:15 p.m., 2:15 p.m., 3:15 p.m., 4:15 p.m., Upper Level

Roman and Greek Myths Story Telling
12:45 p.m., 1:45 p.m., 2:45 p.m., 3:45 p.m., 4:45 p.m., Upper Level

Strolling Santa Claus
1 p.m. to 3 p.m., Museum-wide

Greece: Secrets of the Past
1 p.m., 3 p.m., 5 p.m., in the IMAX® Theatre (separate ticket
required)

The Living Labyrinth, by Barry Stewart Mann
1:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m., Auditorium (limited seating)

Gladiator Bouts Featuring The Ludus Gladiatorum Australis
2 p.m. to 3 p.m., (location TBD)

Atlanta Suzuki Strings orchestra
2 p.m. to 4 p.m., Upper Level

Appearances by Maximus the Lion, The Gwinnett Gladiators Mascot
2 p.m. to 4 p.m., Museum-wide

Celebrating Ancient Empires activities (except IMAX® admission) are
included with Museum admission. Admission and activities are free
for Museum members. Museum admission is $12 for adults, $11 for
students and seniors, and $10 for children ages 12 and under. For
tickets, call 404.929.6400.

*All events subject to change without notice.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47930 From: Lucius Iunius Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Ancient Analog Computer: Antikythera Mechanism
L. Iunius, sine cognomine, Quiritibus sal.

Recent article from Wired, and complementary Wikipedia entry, concerning the first known
analog computer, which is dated to c. 80 BC. You'll note in the Wikipedia article that Cicero
makes reference to something similar in one of his letters. Interesting stuff...

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2006/11/imaging_the_ant.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47931 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Q. Caecilius Metellus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit.

Salve, Colleague.

You make a number of different points in your missive here, all of which
deserve inquisition to the fullest extent. So, being the inquisitor I
am, I would like to ask a number of questions about the points you
raise. I will, of course, quote you directly as much as I am able.

Scripsti:

> In the entire
> corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of the
> Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a decretum
> independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or defied
> by the Senate or any magistrate.

I am not in a position to deny you that the Senate and "civil"
magistrates always followed the direction of the Collegium Pontificum on
sacred matters. I haven't the time to pour through every shred of
extant ancient literature to adequately take up such a position, at any
rate. However, you seem to take the position that we need to ensure
that the Senate and the "civil" magistrates could not have the ability
to act contrary to the direction of the Collegium Pontificum. In which
case, I would like to know where, in the ancient sources, the fact that
these authorities lacked the ability to act contrary to the direction of
the Collegium Pontificum is explicitely stated.

> Religious matters
> are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in Livy's
> narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates. To
> infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> information service for the Senate and magistrates is methodologically
> incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does cite
> instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent action
> and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action.

About this last part, "instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took
independant action and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to
take action", I would personally find it nothing short of helpful if you
could cite some specific examples.

> Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in response
> to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum, decretum
> collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth.

As above, some specific examples would be helpful.

> It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this fallacious
> claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> pontifices.

I would here too be very appreciative if you could point out to me where
the contention that responsa would be issued only by individual
pontifices was stated within the proposals.

> If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual responsa by
> individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is clear
> that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his designate)
> to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of the
> Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all the
> Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> serious matters – the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or incestum,
> the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. – required a larger
> number of pontifices still and their collective action. What Cicero
> presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is starkly
> contradictory to the proposed "reform."

Again, if you could point out specifically where, in the proposals, it
is the case that responsa would only be issued by individual pontifices,
I would appreciate it. As it were, without delving too far into
statements made in chambers, I recall it being specifically stated that
a responsum needed three pontifices to be issued as a responum
pontificum; some support to your statement would be helpful.

> The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> suppression of the Bacchanalia.

Could you show us where this was stated in the proposals?

> I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum.

Again, if you could point out the source of this example, and elaborate
upon it, I'm sure we would all find it helpful.

> It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped until it
> is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command of the
> ancient sources.

Following this, Scaure, would very easily be the statement that the
entire proposal of Nova Roma be abandoned "until it is in accord with
the practices revealed by a competent command of the ancient sources."
It may be far better for us to be careful where we tread here.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47932 From: rory kirshner Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: On Reform of the Religio : CORDUS' Post: Re: De jure pontificio
Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I am reposting Cordus's post on the historical powers of the CP for everyone's benefit. He ends the post with a book list & appropriate chapters.
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior

A. Apollonius C. Equitio sal.

> Let's divide the questions brought up by the proposed reform of the
religio into the two basic areas of concern:


>
> 1. the question of pontifical legislative authority, and


>
> 2. the question of the requirement that magistrates perform
whatever
"rites and ceremonies" might be "passed into law".
<

I already did that. Number 1 is in a thread called "de jure
pontificio". Number 2 is in a thread called "de jure auspicio".

Now, on to the meat and potatoes:

> Corde, while we wait for an authoritative interpretation of the
Greek
of Dionysius, could you in the meantime provide the explanation -
based on historic practice - that would justify the removal of the
current pontifical authority to make and adjudicate sacral law? Sort
of a bullet-point series of historic sources and practices that would
serve as a foundation for this interpretation?
<

The proposal would not exactly remove "the current pontifical
authority to make and adjudicate sacral law". It would remove the
power of the collegium pontificum to make what are effectively super-
leges on whatever subject they consider "relevant" to religio
Romana. This consists of three changes.

First, the removal of the super-legal status of pontifical responsa
or decreta. This has no historical basis whatsoever. There is not
a single instance in republican history of a priestly responsum
overruling a lex. It's really that simple. I hope there's no need
to cite primary sources for it. If anyone can find a primary source
which suggests that a responsum *could* overrule a lex, we'll
discuss it.

Secondly, the removal of formal legislative initative from the
collegia. Currently the collegia can make these super-leges
whenever they want to. If the collegium pontificum has the bright
idea of criminalizing free expression, it can do it. Historically
priests could only give responsa in reply to questions from
magistrates or others. This should mean that we get responsa on
issues which we actually need responsa about, and not about anything
else. One may say that this change would be purely formal because
it will never be hard for the pontifices to find somebody to ask
them whatever question they want to answer. Maybe, but in this case
there is no reason to object to this change.


Thirdly, the clarification of the scope of responsa. Currently the
collegium pontificum can legislate on any matter which is "relevant
to the religio Romana". This covers not only the sacra publica but
the private religious practices of any person or group. Also, since
just about everything in the republic has some sort of religious
significance, it means that the pontifices can effectively legislate
on anything at all. The proposals clarify the remit of responsa,
and in addition the change of initiative would mean that responsa
would only be issued on subjects which magistrates considered were
particularly suitable for the pontifices to give their opinion about.

Sources for the historical accuracy of the above statements can be
found by starting with one or more of the following modern
authorities and following the footnotes to the primary sources:

Watson, "The State, Law And Religion", esp. chapter 1;
North, "Religion In Republican Rome" (chapter 12 in the Cambridge
Ancient History vol. 7 part 2), esp. section 2;
Rasmussen, "Public Portents In Republican Rome", esp. chapter 2
sections 1, 3, and 4.

Some good illustrations of how the system worked are:

Cicero, de domo suo;
Cicero, de natura deorum 2.10-1;
Plutarch, Marcellus 5;
Granius Licinianus 28.24.

And here is an interesting example of a serious religious crisis
being handled without the formal involvement of any priestly
collegia at all:

Livy 39.13-19.

I hope that's enough to be going on with. I really do suggest,
though, that it would be easier for both of us if you could identify
specific facts which you want sources for, rather than just asking
me for sources for the whole thing.







___________________________________________________________
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and ease of use." - PC Magazine
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--- End forwarded message ---







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47933 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Candidacy for Rogator
Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Quiritibus salutem dicit.

Salvete, Quirites.

I had not originally intended on campaigning for any office other than
the quaestura this year. As it were, I certainly do not care to push my
limits with the Senate, since I would need an age exemption for any
office for which I intend to stand. However, the circumstances are such
that we yet still have offices for which there are not enough candidates
to fill the open positions, which is a situation that I would like to do
something to help. And, Quirites, with that being the case, I, Quintus
Caecilius Metellus Postumianus, hereby offer myself to your service
again, in the position of Rogator.

Valete Optime,

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Postumianus
http://www.novaroma.org/civitas/album?id=4031
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47934 From: Lucius Iunius Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Californianis Sal.: Unofficial Roll Call
L. Iunius, sine cognomine, civibus Californianis sal.

Recently, to satisfy my curiosity, I asked on the "CaliforniaNovaRoma" yahoo group for all
active NR citizens in Provincia Californiana (from the US states Hawaii, California, and Nevada)
to post a quick hello. I'm trying to get a feel for our numbers. If any of you Californiani out
there are not yet a member of the CaliforniaNovaRoma group, please drop in and make your
presence felt. Vobis gratias ago!

Valete.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47935 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
M. Hortensia P. Caecilio Metello Fl. Galerio Quiritibusque spd;
my pardon for making an omnibus post but it is
sensible to discuss this issue as it is one issue:

1. The CP's reform according to the mos of the Middle Republic. I
reposted Cordus' researched post with his named scholarly sources.

2. Iulius Scaurus' post is just his opinion unless pertinent modern
scholarly sources are attached. Since he proposed the 54 day
unhistoric superstitio, he really must provide documentation from
top-class scholars. He has a university library at his disposal

3. Since along with Cordus, Saturninus, Faustus, Piscinus, Astur,
Metellus, Modianus and many other cives etc I wish to see the CP
reformed to its historic roots, this means keeping all collegia;
Fetiales, Arval Brotherhood etc. And all the dieties and feria in
the Republican calender

4. Flavi Galeri; please address me as Marca Hortensia or Hortensia
Maior, according to Republican usage. There is a fine scholarly
article "Choosing a Roman Name" in the NRwiki which discusses this
very subject. Read it & use it. As a magistrate you set the example

5. having studied French, Italian, Russian at University & German at
grad school last year, I assure you I have read every book & more on
Roman prosographia, nomenclature, history, law etc. I expect to help
teach Roman Law at the Academia Thules. Future pontiffs should be
multilingual.

6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
Republican Romans.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
>
> Salve, Colleague.
>
> You make a number of different points in your missive here, all of
which
> deserve inquisition to the fullest extent. So, being the
inquisitor I
> am, I would like to ask a number of questions about the points you
> raise. I will, of course, quote you directly as much as I am able.
>
> Scripsti:
>
> > In the entire
> > corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of
the
> > Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> > Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a
decretum
> > independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or
defied
> > by the Senate or any magistrate.
>
> I am not in a position to deny you that the Senate and "civil"
> magistrates always followed the direction of the Collegium
Pontificum on
> sacred matters. I haven't the time to pour through every shred of
> extant ancient literature to adequately take up such a position,
at any
> rate. However, you seem to take the position that we need to
ensure
> that the Senate and the "civil" magistrates could not have the
ability
> to act contrary to the direction of the Collegium Pontificum. In
which
> case, I would like to know where, in the ancient sources, the fact
that
> these authorities lacked the ability to act contrary to the
direction of
> the Collegium Pontificum is explicitely stated.
>
> > Religious matters
> > are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in
Livy's
> > narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates.
To
> > infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> > information service for the Senate and magistrates is
methodologically
> > incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does
cite
> > instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent
action
> > and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action.
>
> About this last part, "instances in which the Collegium Pontificum
took
> independant action and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate
to
> take action", I would personally find it nothing short of helpful
if you
> could cite some specific examples.
>
> > Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> > decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in
response
> > to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum,
decretum
> > collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth.
>
> As above, some specific examples would be helpful.
>
> > It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this
fallacious
> > claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> > pontifices.
>
> I would here too be very appreciative if you could point out to me
where
> the contention that responsa would be issued only by individual
> pontifices was stated within the proposals.
>
> > If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual
responsa by
> > individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> > should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is
clear
> > that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his
designate)
> > to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of
the
> > Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all
the
> > Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> > serious matters â€" the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or
incestum,
> > the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. â€" required a
larger
> > number of pontifices still and their collective action. What
Cicero
> > presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> > collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is
starkly
> > contradictory to the proposed "reform."
>
> Again, if you could point out specifically where, in the
proposals, it
> is the case that responsa would only be issued by individual
pontifices,
> I would appreciate it. As it were, without delving too far into
> statements made in chambers, I recall it being specifically stated
that
> a responsum needed three pontifices to be issued as a responum
> pontificum; some support to your statement would be helpful.
>
> > The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> > Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> > suppression of the Bacchanalia.
>
> Could you show us where this was stated in the proposals?
>
> > I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> > disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum.
>
> Again, if you could point out the source of this example, and
elaborate
> upon it, I'm sure we would all find it helpful.
>
> > It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped
until it
> > is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command
of the
> > ancient sources.
>
> Following this, Scaure, would very easily be the statement that
the
> entire proposal of Nova Roma be abandoned "until it is in accord
with
> the practices revealed by a competent command of the ancient
sources."
> It may be far better for us to be careful where we tread here.
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47936 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-01
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Scaurus Metello Pio SPD.

> > In the entire
> > corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of the
> > Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> > Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a decretum
> > independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or defied
> > by the Senate or any magistrate.
>
> I am not in a position to deny you that the Senate and "civil"
> magistrates always followed the direction of the Collegium Pontificum on
> sacred matters. I haven't the time to pour through every shred of
> extant ancient literature to adequately take up such a position, at any
> rate. However, you seem to take the position that we need to ensure
> that the Senate and the "civil" magistrates could not have the ability
> to act contrary to the direction of the Collegium Pontificum. In which
> case, I would like to know where, in the ancient sources, the fact that
> these authorities lacked the ability to act contrary to the direction of
> the Collegium Pontificum is explicitely stated.

I am simply reporting the conclusion of the authors of the two
standard works of scholarship on the Collegium Pontificum,
Bouchet-Leclerq and Van Haeperen. They have examined all the extant
sources and have concluded that the Senate never refused advice or a
directive on a religious matter from the Collegium. It is simply an
historical fact that there is no evidence they ever did.

> > Religious matters
> > are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in Livy's
> > narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates. To
> > infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> > information service for the Senate and magistrates is methodologically
> > incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does cite
> > instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent action
> > and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action.
>
> About this last part, "instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took
> independent action and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to
> take action", I would personally find it nothing short of helpful if you
> could cite some specific examples.

Liv. 4, 44, 11-12; 8, 15, 7; 34, 44, 1-2.

> > Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> > decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in response
> > to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum, decretum
> > collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth.
>
> As above, some specific examples would be helpful.

Liv. 4, 53, 5; 5, 23, 8; 5, 25, 7; 8, 15, 7; 27, 25, 7-9; 31, 9, 7-9;
34, 44, 2; 38, 44, 5; 39, 5, 9; 41, 16, 2.

> > It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this fallacious
> > claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> > pontifices.
>
> I would here too be very appreciative if you could point out to me where
> the contention that responsa would be issued only by individual
> pontifices was stated within the proposals.

"Responsum" is a technical legal term in this context; it means the
response of an individual pontifex to a question. If several
pontifices are queried, their individual responses are collectively
termed "responsa." I assumed that the authors knew what they were
talking about when they chose the term.

> > If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual responsa by
> > individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> > should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is clear
> > that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his designate)
> > to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of the
> > Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all the
> > Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> > serious matters – the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or incestum,
> > the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. – required a larger
> > number of pontifices still and their collective action. What Cicero
> > presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> > collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is starkly
> > contradictory to the proposed "reform."
>
> Again, if you could point out specifically where, in the proposals, it
> is the case that responsa would only be issued by individual pontifices,
> I would appreciate it. As it were, without delving too far into
> statements made in chambers, I recall it being specifically stated that
> a responsum needed three pontifices to be issued as a responum
> pontificum; some support to your statement would be helpful.
>
> > The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> > Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> > suppression of the Bacchanalia.
>
> Could you show us where this was stated in the proposals?

It's in Cordus' arguments for the proposal. He cites Livy 6, 39,
13-19 which is Livy's treatment of the Bacchanalia.

> > I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> > disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum.
>
> Again, if you could point out the source of this example, and elaborate
> upon it, I'm sure we would all find it helpful.

There's an inscription which refers to it. I need to check the CIL
for the reference.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47937 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
Q. Caecilius Metellus C. Iulio Scauro salutem.

I thank you, Colleague, for your responses to my inquiries. I will,
over the coming days, look through the instances which you have cited
for me, and I hope to be able to give a proper response afterward.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47938 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
G. Iulius Scaurus Quiritibus SPD.

I stand before you as a candidate for the quaestorship.

I have served as Aedilis Curulis, and with my distinguished colleague,
M. Iulius Perusianus, we were the first aediles curules in Nova Roma
to successfully complete the full ancient course of ludi and observe
the requisite religious caerimoniae.

I am a Pontifex and the Flamen Quirinalis and, thus, a practitioner of
the cultus Deorum. I am also a strict reconstructionist, preferring
adherence to the mos maiorum antiquus over modern innovation unless
circumstances absolutely compel change. I have served as pullarius
for the Collegium Augurum and am a member of the Comitia Curiata.

I have served as a consular accensus and praetorian scriba. In the
latter position I was a principal drafter of the Leges Saliae poenalis
and iudiciaria.

I have been informed by praetor-elect C. Equitius Cato that he will
seek my appointment as his praetorian quaestor if I am elected. Among
the projects I hope to complete in such a role is a full index to Nova
Roman law. Having been granted the title of iurisconsult by Cn.
Salvius Astur when he was praetor, I expect, if elected, to serve a
principal advisor to C. Equitius Cato on Nova Roman legal matters,
especially criminal and civil procedure.

I pray to the Di Immortales that you will favourably regard my
candidacy for quaestor.

Valete.

Scaurus
Pontifex et Flamen Quirinalis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47939 From: Christopher Mullin Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Californianis Sal.: Unofficial Roll Call
ALOHA
GAIUS IULIUS VERUS "TRANQUILLUS "
HONOLULU, HAWAII
VALETE

Lucius Iunius wrote:

>L. Iunius, sine cognomine, civibus Californianis sal.
>
>Recently, to satisfy my curiosity, I asked on the "CaliforniaNovaRoma" yahoo group for all
>active NR citizens in Provincia Californiana (from the US states Hawaii, California, and Nevada)
>to post a quick hello. I'm trying to get a feel for our numbers. If any of you Californiani out
>there are not yet a member of the CaliforniaNovaRoma group, please drop in and make your
>presence felt. Vobis gratias ago!
>
>Valete.
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47940 From: Joe Geranio Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Review of Die Bildnisse des Augustus
If you love in depth studies on Julio Claudian Portraiture or just
great Photos join at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/julioclaudian/

This review was done by Prof. John Pollini. This is one of the best
works for the layman to understand Julio Claudian Portraiture.
Please take the time and soak it in!!

Die Bildnisse des Augustus, Das romische Herrscherbild, pt. 1, vol. 2

Berlin: Gebruder Mann Verlag, 1993. 252 pp.; 239 b/w ills., 9
foldouts. DM 290.

This volume on the sculptural portraiture of Augustus, arguably the
most important in the Romische Herrscherbild series (which currently
numbers ten volumes), was long in the making. First conceived for
the series by Max Wegner in the 1930s, a comprehensive study of the
portraits of Augustus was originally to be published by Walter
Gross. After the latter decided in the 1970s to focus only on the
coin portraiture of Octavian/Augustus, Paul Zanker took over the
project, [1] but in the end he passed it on with photograph
documentation to Dietrich Boschung, who brought this magnum opus to
completion within a remarkably short time.

The essential goals of any such modern iconographic portrait study
are, first, to assemble all known portraits of a given personage;
second, to determine the appearance and style of each of the
presumed lost prototypes on which all of the known surviving
replicas are based; third, to attempt to date the creation of the
lost prototype and the surviving replicas and other portrait
versions; and fourth, to try to determine the reason(s) for the
creation of each type. Because no ancient author discusses the
nature of portrait production, aside from some passing references
and anecdotal comments, we must depend to a large degree on the
evidence provided by the portraits themselves in addressing
questions of the nature, ideology, replication, distribution,
reception, and redefinition of an individual's portraiture. In
Augustus's case, that body of evidence is substantial, numbering
well over two hundred surviving sculptural portraits [2]--more than
exist for any other Roman leader.

Advertisement

Boschung's primary focus in Die Bildnisse des Augustus is the
creation of an elaborate taxonomical schema of Augustus's principal
portrait types based on the extant portraits themselves and the
rather limited literary and epigraphic evidence for his appearance.
Although comprehensive, the present study is not all-inclusive.
There is little discussion of the evidence provided by cameo and
gemstone images of Augustus, [3] which was felt to be of marginal
importance in establishing a portrait typology. Also omitted from
discussion are possible images of Augustus in other media,
especially vessels. [4] And because of the nature and goals of the
Herrscherbild series, relatively little will be found in this volume
with regard to the perceptual images of Octavian/Augustus or the
psychological and sociopolitical needs that prompted their creation.
[5] With regard to the numismatic evidence, it would have been
helpful if coinage were treated in a more comprehensive way, even if
that part of the study were written by another individual, as in the
case of Boschung's volume on Caligula in the Herrscherbild series.
As for the literary evidence for Augustus's physical appearance, it
would have been more appropriately presented at the beginning of the
book, rather than just before the catalogue.

Like others before him, Boschung accepts that there were three
principal portrait types of Augustus (p1. 1.3-5; Figs. 3-5), to
which he adds two earlier ones (p1. 1.1-2; Figs. 1, 2), with two
subtypes (p1. 1.6-7; Figs. 6, 7). All of these could be employed
with various body types representing him as imperator, priest, hero,
divinity, or deified leader. Although there is general scholarly
agreement as to the dating of one of the types (the so-called Prima
Porta type), other matters are more problematic. Particularly
difficult is establishing the earliest of Augustus's portrait types,
as well as dating the prototype of the so-called Forbes type (after
a head in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts), which Boschung rejects as
the best replica of the lost prototype, preferring instead a head in
the Louvre (his "Paris Louvre MA 1280" type). In Boschung's study,
as in all such scholarly endeavors based in part on incomplete
evidence and subjective interpretation, a number of points will
continue to be contested and will need to be further clarified and
modified in the future.

Before addressing the rather complex issues involved in establishing
a portrait typology, I would like to offer a few words on the book's
format. The three chapters after the introductory one constitute the
core of the study: chapter 2 (pp. 11-50) deals with the
establishment and categorization of the different types of
Augustus's portraits; chapter 3 (pp. 51-65) reviews past scholarship
on the successive types and their dates, together with Boschung's
own conclusions; and chapter 4 (pp. 66-82) discusses the dating of
the various individual images. The final two chapters deal with
broader issues: chapter 5 (pp. 83-91) attempts to explain the
distribution of Augustus's different portrait types, while chapter 6
(pp. 92-103) briefly discusses the copying of portraits, presents
literary evidence for the appearance of Augustus, and gives a very
useful thumbnail sketch of other issues pertaining to the images of
Augustus, including various statue types, honorific inscriptions,
and reasons for erecting images. [6] Boschung's discussion of
Augustus's sculptural images in chapters 1 through 6 is followed by
a catalogue of extant individual portraits, arranged according to
types and, in some cases, subtypes. Under each catalogue entry, he
gives basic information: museum, type of image, measurements,
provenance (if known), condition, description, suggested dating,
concise selective bibliography, and page references to the portrait
in his text. With only two exceptions (cat. nos. 154, 166), he
provides one or more illustrations of each of the portraits in his
catalogue. In addition, Boschung presents a very short section on
portraits of Augustus on several important cameos that represent him
in frontal view with the Prima Porta hairstyle (pp. 194-95, cat.
nos. 212-17). There are also brief catalogue entries of doubtful
(pp. 196-97) and modern portraits (pp. 198- 201), as well as of
those he takes as incorrectly identified as Augustus in the past
(pp. 202-4)--by no means an all-inclusive list. After the catalogue
of portrait s are several helpful line-drawn maps (pp. 206-13)
showing the known provenance of portraits for each of
Octavian/Augustus's portrait types. At the end of the study are
three indexes (general, museum, and provenance). Besides the many
photographic illustrations, a pocket attached to the back cover of
the book contains useful foldouts (Beilage) with line drawings of
key portrait heads (views of frontal, profile, and back of head) of
the various portrait types. In these line drawings individual locks
are selectively numbered to facilitate comparison.

The most important part of any typological study of this sort is the
photographic documentation. Ideally, there should be a minimum of
four views of each portrait (front, back, and both profiles), all
shot at the same angle. Extremely desirable also is a photograph of
each portrait from the optimum view; that is, the principal angle at
which it was intended to be seen (often with face averted to the
right or left). For a variety of reasons beyond the control of the
portrait typologist, it is often not possible to obtain photographs
of all these views, or even photographs of good quality, because of
the inaccessibility of some images or the way in which
portraits/portrait statues are displayed in museums and collections.
Such qualifiers aside, Boschung should have obtained additional
views or better photographs of a number of the portraits in his
catalogue. Given the importance of Augustus to our understanding of
Roman portraiture, the impact of his portraiture and portrait
ideology on subsequent ages, and th e fact that this volume in the
Herrscherbild series will remain the principal catalogue for some
years to come, more of an effort should have been made to obtain the
best possible photographic documentation. In a number of cases,
Boschung uses photographs of plaster casts of extant portraits
rather than of the original work itself. In certain instances, this
might be understandable if a portrait is impossible to photograph
because of its location in a modern setting, but not when there
exist good-quality photograph of the original work, as in the case
of a head of Octavian in the Stanza degli Imperatori in the Museo
Capitolino in Rome: only photographs of a plaster cast are
represented (pls. 14, 28.1), with no photograph of the optimum view
of the original sculpture, even though excellent photographs of the
original head are available. [7] When photographs of casts are used,
the physical characteristics of the sculpture itself (such as
restorations, breaks, discoloration) are difficult, and sometimes
impossible, to detect.

In comparing photographs of different portraits and consulting
Boschung's catalogue, I discovered in a few instances that the
caption under the reproductions gave an incorrect catalogue number
(for example, p1. 61 should be not cat. no. 65 but 51; p1. 65, not
cat. no. 52 but 62; p1. 157, not cat. no. 100 but 95). In the
citation of sources, more precise page references would have been
preferable to the "if." typically used in German scholarship. Also,
the inaccurate and anachronistic vocabulary of kingship
or "emperorship" (for example, "Prinzenportrats") used to
characterize Augustus, members of his family, and the form of
government that he established should be given up. This sort of
vocabulary (including, in English and American scholarship, the use
of emperor and empress), which has been so prevalent, projects false
notions onto the past, especially in terms of leadership and
governance. Although Rome had acquired an empire (imperium) already
under the Republic, Augustus was not an emperor, a word that, of
course, derives from imperator but had a quite different meaning in
antiquity. Augustus's civic position in the state was that of
princeps ("first citizen" or "leader"), a term already in use under
the Republic. The Roman historian Tacitus (Annales 1.9), writing in
the 2nd century C.E., pointed out that Augustus had established
neither a kingship nor a dictatorship but a principate (governance
by a princeps): "Non regno tamen neque dictatura, sed principe
nomine constitutam rem publicam."

Typology and Ideology of Augustus's Portraits

In his "Introduction" (pp. 1-10), Boschung discusses some
methodological and general issues regarding Roman portraits and
their production. He sets up four general principles governing
portrait studies: (1) "Konstituierung der Typen" (establishment of
the types); (2) "Replikenrezension" (replica critique);
(3) "Rekonstruierung des Entwurfs" (reconstruction of the [portrait]
design); and (4) "Interpretation der Typen" (interpretation of the
types). This methodological approach is a well-established one,
based on a strong Germanic tradition going back to J. J. Bernoulli,
who catalogued some ninety-seven heads of Augustus in his
fundamental work Romische Ikonographie, vol. 2 (1886). In
establishing a given type, this approach places a great deal of
emphasis on the number, form, and arrangement of hair locks,
especially (but not exclusively) over the forehead--the so-called
Lockenzahlmethode (method of counting locks). To he sure, the
Lockenzahlmethode is a useful diagnostic tool in establishing
portrait types, b ut the almost all-consuming emphasis placed on it
in many portraiture studies can lead to erroneous identification, as
well as leave us at times wondering what is meant by a portrait. [8]
Is a portrait a likeness of an individual or simply of a hairstyle
(a "Portratfrisur")? It seems to me that an image of Augustus that
does not reproduce one of his known iconographic hair types but
closely resembles him in facial features might in some cases
appropriately be designated an atypical portrait or a portrait with
an atypical hairstyle [9] rather than simply excluded altogether as
representing him. Such images have sometimes been too quickly
dismissed as examples of Zeitgesicht (temporal visage), that is, a
portrait of a private individual made to resemble the princeps or
some other member of his family. [10] Conversely, how might we refer
to an image of an individual who resembles the princeps in hairstyle
but not in facial features? Such a hairstyle might be considered an
example of Zeitfrisur (temporal hairstyl e), to coin a term.
Providing an instance of such a Zeitfrisur is a colossal marble head
of a mature bearded male from Rome in the Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek
(Fig. 8), which is most likely an invented portrait of Augustus's
legendary ancestor Aeneas. [11] This image can be identified as
Aeneas because of its colossal size, beard, mature features, and,
most important, the arrangement of locks both over the forehead in a
mirror reverse of Augustus's Prima Porta type (cat. no. 171, pl. 69)
and at the nape of the neck. This image, which stylistically appears
to date from about the Hadrianic to early Antonine period, may have
been based on an Augustan model.

And how are we to regard representations of Augustus that can only
be identified by inscription? Among such images are those found on
reliefs from Roman Egypt (not mentioned by Boschung) representing
Augustus in a stereotypical Egyptian style. On the sides of a Temple
of Augustus from Dendur now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New
York (Fig. 9), [12] Augustus is represented as pharaoh, so
identified by his cartouche. These representations might
appropriately be regarded as symbolic images. The same might be said
of certain statues in the round in pharaonic dress, which some
scholars have identified as portraits of Augustus but which Boschung
categorically dismisses as images of him (see, for example, cat.
nos. [268.sup.*], [281.sup.*], [285.sup.*], [287.sup.*]).

In categorizing portraits that are identifiable as Augustus on the
basis of hairstyle and, to a lesser extent, facial features,
Boschung seeks ultimately to determine the appearance of the model
for a particular type. Portraits that are of high quality, reflect
the style of the city of Rome, and show a great degree of
correspondence among themselves are considered to constitute
replicas of a presumed lost model (Urbild) or, for Boschung, a lost
design (Entwurf). Those few portraits that show the closest affinity
to one another constitute Boschung's Kerngruppe (core group); others
that show substantial affinity with one another form the
remaining "replica series." The concept of a Kerngruppe works fairly
well, but where to make a division between the Kerngruppe and the
remaining less close versions of the type can be very subjective, as
is also the matter of establishing what constitutes the best one or
two examples within a Kerngruppe of the presumed lost original
model. Within a given replica series there m ay be portraits that
show an affinity among themselves but deviate from the core group in
various ways. Such a group of portraits Boschung calls a Repliken-
strang (replica string). Portraits that are of essentially the same
portrait type but differ significantly from the core group could be
regarded as Varianten (variants). Whether considered part of a
replica string or a variant, some portraits appear to combine
elements of more than one type and so constitute Klitterungen or
Typenklitterungen (contaminations). The reasons for these deviations
among the surviving portraits are varied and can only he postulated.
Some portraits do not fit into any established type and should be
considered independent creations. In his terminology, Boschung uses
Kopie (copy) and Replik (replica) interchangeably, although others,
from Georg Lippold on, [13] have attempted to differentiate between
the two. Some distinction should at least be made between a replica
(that which shows strong affinities with others of the same type)
and a version (that which does not show strong affinities with a
core group and can be considered an adaptation, variant, or new
creation).

The first of the portrait types of Octavian/Augustus to be discussed
(pp. 11-22, 59-65) is the so-called Actium or Octavian type, renamed
by Boschung the Alcudia type after a head in Alcudia (Mallorca; Fig.
3). He sees four replicas (pp. 11-13) representing the Kerngruppe
(cat. no. 6, pls. 7, 8; cat. no. 10, pl. 9; cat. no. 31, pl. 10;
cat. no. 32, pl. 11), with another twenty-four also reflecting this
type to a lesser degree. Boschung's analysis here illustrates one of
the inherent problems of such typological studies, which make
comparisons among extant heads as a means of reconstructing the lost
prototype: namely, the self-limiting evidence of the portraits
themselves and the quality and available angle of photographic views
of each head. For example, within Boschung's Kerngruppe of the
Alcudia type (pp. 10-13), the head in Alcudia is capite velatus
(head veiled); only the top half of the Zurich head is preserved,
and it is very weathered; and there are no strict profile views or
back of the head shots fo r the Uffizi and Tripoli heads. Like Paul
Zanker and Klaus Fittschen, [14] Boschung (pp. 52, 60-61) pushes the
creation of this type (although not of the Alcudia head itself) back
to at least 40 B.C.E. His dating is based largely on the coin
evidence of Octavian's so-called DIVOS IVLIVS emission (pl. 238.2-3;
Fig. 10, which might date anytime between about 40 and 38 B.C.E. (p.
60 n. 244). [15] Boschung agrees (p. 60 and n. 247) with those who
see the Alcudia type as also reflected in later numismatic images on
the so-called triumphal series (pl. 238.4-7).
In categorizing portraits that are identifiable as Augustus on the
basis of hairstyle and, to a lesser extent, facial features,
Boschung seeks ultimately to determine the appearance of the model
for a particular type. Portraits that are of high quality, reflect
the style of the city of Rome, and show a great degree of
correspondence among themselves are considered to constitute
replicas of a presumed lost model (Urbild) or, for Boschung, a lost
design (Entwurf). Those few portraits that show the closest affinity
to one another constitute Boschung's Kerngruppe (core group); others
that show substantial affinity with one another form the
remaining "replica series." The concept of a Kerngruppe works fairly
well, but where to make a division between the Kerngruppe and the
remaining less close versions of the type can be very subjective, as
is also the matter of establishing what constitutes the best one or
two examples within a Kerngruppe of the presumed lost original
model. Within a given replica series there m ay be portraits that
show an affinity among themselves but deviate from the core group in
various ways. Such a group of portraits Boschung calls a Repliken-
strang (replica string). Portraits that are of essentially the same
portrait type but differ significantly from the core group could be
regarded as Varianten (variants). Whether considered part of a
replica string or a variant, some portraits appear to combine
elements of more than one type and so constitute Klitterungen or
Typenklitterungen (contaminations). The reasons for these deviations
among the surviving portraits are varied and can only he postulated.
Some portraits do not fit into any established type and should be
considered independent creations. In his terminology, Boschung uses
Kopie (copy) and Replik (replica) interchangeably, although others,
from Georg Lippold on, [13] have attempted to differentiate between
the two. Some distinction should at least be made between a replica
(that which shows strong affinities with others of the same type)
and a version (that which does not show strong affinities with a
core group and can be considered an adaptation, variant, or new
creation).

The first of the portrait types of Octavian/Augustus to be discussed
(pp. 11-22, 59-65) is the so-called Actium or Octavian type, renamed
by Boschung the Alcudia type after a head in Alcudia (Mallorca; Fig.
3). He sees four replicas (pp. 11-13) representing the Kerngruppe
(cat. no. 6, pls. 7, 8; cat. no. 10, pl. 9; cat. no. 31, pl. 10;
cat. no. 32, pl. 11), with another twenty-four also reflecting this
type to a lesser degree. Boschung's analysis here illustrates one of
the inherent problems of such typological studies, which make
comparisons among extant heads as a means of reconstructing the lost
prototype: namely, the self-limiting evidence of the portraits
themselves and the quality and available angle of photographic views
of each head. For example, within Boschung's Kerngruppe of the
Alcudia type (pp. 10-13), the head in Alcudia is capite velatus
(head veiled); only the top half of the Zurich head is preserved,
and it is very weathered; and there are no strict profile views or
back of the head shots fo r the Uffizi and Tripoli heads. Like Paul
Zanker and Klaus Fittschen, [14] Boschung (pp. 52, 60-61) pushes the
creation of this type (although not of the Alcudia head itself) back
to at least 40 B.C.E. His dating is based largely on the coin
evidence of Octavian's so-called DIVOS IVLIVS emission (pl. 238.2-3;
Fig. 10, which might date anytime between about 40 and 38 B.C.E. (p.
60 n. 244). [15] Boschung agrees (p. 60 and n. 247) with those who
see the Alcudia type as also reflected in later numismatic images on
the so-called triumphal series (pl. 238.4-7).
Some have felt that the Alcudia type was Octavian's first three-
dimensional portrait type and was the one used for the gilded
equestrian image that the Senate set up in 43 B.C.E. to Octavian in
Rostris [16] in the Forum. [17] But, as Boschung rightly notes, the
earliest numismatic images of Octavian dating to this time look very
generic. Since die engravers often show as much diversity in
creating two-dimensional portrait images as do sculptors carving
portraits in the round, such generic images would indicate that they
were not based on any real portrait image of Octavian. In short, the
earliest numismatic images of Octavian that reproduce the facial
features and hairstyle of the Alcudia type appear to belong to the
DIVOS IVLIVS issue, suggesting that die engravers for this issue
were using as their model an image based on the Alcudia type.

In this type, a heightened sense of physiognomic realism is
expressed in an artistic form that derives from the old so-called
Hellenistic Pathosbild (an emotionally charged image). Reflective of
the old pathos formula is the accentuated twist and inclination of
the head, the plastically carved hair locks that appear somewhat
agitated over the forehead, and the tension in the brows and
forehead. This image of Octavian is, however, a far cry from the
Roman Pathosbilder of earlier times. [18] In my opinion, the pathos
has been toned down [19] in the Alcudia type and tempered by
classicizing elements, especially evident in the surface treatment
of the flesh and the more composed and lower-relief hair locks at
the sides of the head. In this type we also find a stylistic range
from a more academic classicism, as evidenced in a head from Ephesos
in Selcuk (cat. no. 26, pl. 24.2-4), to a highly modeled and richly
plastic treatment, as in a head in the Palazzo Bardini in Florenze
(cat. no. 9, pl. 18.1-3). In the dati ng of individual portrait
versions of the Alcudia type, Boschung tends to give weight to
whether or not a particular work seems to have been influenced by
the strongly classicizing style of the Prima Porta type, which most
portrait specialists would see as created in or shortly after the
founding of the principate in 27 B.C.E. In certain cases (for
example, cat. no. 24, pl. 22, and even more in cat. no. 18, pl. 23),
we can see the impact of the strongly classicizing Prima Porta type
and pincer lock motif over the forehead.

After discussing his Alcudia type, Boschung (pp. 22-26) takes up the
matter of the problematic portraiture of Octavian's earliest years.
The old designation of Otto Brendel's Type A (represented by a
famous head from Ostia in the Musei Vaticani [20] has long been
rejected by Roman portrait specialists as an image of Octavian in
his early teens and taken instead as a portrait of one of Augustus's
adopted sons--a fact lost on modern historians, who continue to use
this head in their historical treatments to illustrate what the
young Augustus looked like. [21] Far more debated as being a
portrait of the young Octavian is Brendel's Type B, which some have
regarded as Octavian's earliest known type, predating the so-called
Actium type (Boschung's Alcudia type). Boschung (pp. 51-52, 54-55)
and others (myself included) [22] consider Brendel's Type B to be a
portrait of Augustus's grandson and adopted son Gains. The facial
hair, in the form of long side-whiskers and/or beard, evident in
some of these portraits (for example, a portrait in the Galleria
degli Uffizi [fig. 11]) and in a number of images of Octavian in his
early coin types (for example, Fig. 10) has often been interpreted--
incorrectly, in my opinion--as a Trauerbart (beard of mourning).
[23] The long sideburns and/or narrow, neatly trimmed beard worn by
Octavian in his early coin types (a detail that might also have been
painted on some of his marble portraits) was most likely a military
beard or "beard of vengeance" to evoke an image of a Roman Ares/Mars
Ultor-like commander. [24]

Boschung postulates two new types as having been created before the
Alcudia type. One of these he calls the Lucus Feroniae type (pp. 23-
24, 59-62), after a head from Lucas Feroniae (cat. no. 4, pl. 5;
Fig. 2), just outside Rome. This type, which he identifies in only
two other replicas (cat. no. 3, pls. 4, 28.4; cat. no. 5, pl. 6),
appears to be related to the Alcudia type. Although these three
heads had previously been taken as versions of the Actium type
(Boschung's Alcudia type), there are enough distinguishing features
shared among them (and apart from other replicas of the Alcudia
type) to establish this as a separate type or, at least, a subtype.
Besides the tightly locked pincer effect over the forehead, these
few portraits display a number of points of comparison in patterns
of locks at the sides and back of the head (cat. no. 3, pl. 4; cat.
no. 4, pl. 5). Most noteworthy are the very distinctive long,
horizontal locks high above the right ear that form a double-stacked
fan of down-turned locks. Clea rly different from the postulated
prototype of the Alcudia type are the six to seven reverse-comma-
shaped locks over the right temple in ail three portraits. These
distinctive reverse-comma-shaped locks are also found on an early
coin type of Octavian, with seemingly true portrait features, that
Boschung correctly associates with his Lucus Feroniae type (pp. 24,
59-60). This numismatic issue, minted by Q. Voconius Vitulus (pl.
238.1), probably dates to the late 40s B.C.E. It is distinctly
different from the DIVOS IVLIVS issue (Fig. 10), which, as we have
seen, appears to be associated with the Alcudia type. Because of the
problematic dating of both the DIVOS IVLIVS issue and that of
Voconius Vitulus, it is difficult to know whether the Alcudia or the
Lucus Feroniae type came first or to what extent the two may have
overlapped in time. In any case, the Lucus Feroniae type appears to
be either a distinct type that might have led directly to the
Alcudia type, as Boschung postulates, or an early subtype of the Al
cudia type that was very short-lived. As for the surviving replicas
of the Lucus Feroniae type, Boschung dates all three to the time
before the creation of the Prima Porta type. Of the three, the head
from Lucus Feroniae, despite its summary carving and lower artistic
quality, shows the strongest classicizing features, especially in
the linear treatment of the hair.

In individual features and in the shape of the face, the Lucus
Feroniae head (as well as others of that type) does not stand far
from two other portraits that Boschung postulates belong to yet
another early type of Octavian. This type, with physiognomic
features rendered in a less realistic fashion than in the Lucas
Feroniae type, Boschung calls the Beziers-Spoleto type (pp. 25-26,
59-62) after only two existing replicas: one from Spoleto in Perugia
(cat. no. 1, pls. 1.1, 2; Fig. 1), the other from Beziers (ancient
Baeterrae) in Toulouse (cat. no. 2, p1. 3). The two replicas are
extremely close in formal details, including the number and
arrangement of hair locks over the forehead, but differ somewhat in
the treatment of hair locks at the sides of the head. Boschung
believes that the Beziers Spoleto type, like the Lucus Feroniae
type, was in existence in the period between 43 and 40 B.C.E.,
therefore predating the Alcudia type. He acknowledges that the
period between 44 and 40 B.C.E. is a rather narrow range of time for
the coexistence of three types and, further, that it is difficult to
explain the relationship of the three earliest types, except to see
the Beziers-Spoleto and Lucus Feroniae types as "experimental" in
nature.
Although known in very few replicas, as we might expect for this
early period and limited geographic area, the Beziers-Spoleto and
Lucus Feroniae groupings appear to be genuine types rather than
subtypes of the Alcudia type. The earliest numismatic evidence,
which Boschung might have utilized to greater effect, seems to bear
out his hypothesis. The first numismatic portraits of Octavian,
dating to 43 B.C.E., present a classicizing image of a boyish youth,
in some cases with longish side-whiskers. [25] This image is so
generalized and so unlike his portraiture in the round that we must
conclude that it is only a symbolic portrait for a coinage that was
created in great haste to pay his troops. These and subsequent
issues present images of Octavian that are classicizing to a varying
degree. This preference for a classicizing style in numismatic
imagery is expressed also in the strongly classicizing physiognomic
features of the Beziers-Spoleto type.

Although not noted by Boschung, the images of Octavian on the
coinage minted by L. Livineius Regulus in 42 B.C.E. [26] are among
the earliest to reflect what appear to be his real portrait
features. These coin likenesses compare fairly well with the
portrait from Beziers (cat. no. 2, pl. 3). Even the fringe of locks
over the forehead of the Beziers head, when viewed in profile, and
of the numismatic images appears to be comparable. [27] As also in
the coin portraits, the preserved part of the hair of the reworked
Beziers head [28] is in low relief and is generally more composed
than the thicker, plastically carved locks of the head from Spoleto.
In this respect, the hair of the Beziers head may more closely
reflect the lost prototype, which, based on the coinage, may in fact
have been a more classicizing image than Boschung believes. In both
the Beziers and Spoleto portraits, strong classicizing traits are
manifest in the smooth, idealized structure and planes of the face,
which is only somewhat averted, unl ike the more dramatically turned
head of the Alcudia type. Evident at this time in the late Republic
are both classicizing and nonclassicizing (baroque) tendencies, as
well as a combination of the two, in keeping with late Hellenistic
classicizing trends in Greco-Roman Ideal-skulptur (nonclassicizing)
and adaptations and in Roman portraiture.

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Interestingly, Octavian's own literary and rhetorical style, which
most likely followed that of Caesar, was of a simple, classicizing
type, or what might be called neo-Attic. [29] This was a Roman
version of the late Hellenistic Attic style, which in turn looked
back to late Classical models. This personal style of Octavian stood
in stark contrast to the florid, more exuberant Asiatic style of his
chief rival, Marc Antony. [30] In the late Republic, literary and
rhetorical styles could be highly politicized and exemplify an
individual's character and virtue. It was not until the founding of
the principate that Classicism came to be the Zeitstil, the dominant
style of the day, commonly referred to as Augustan Classicism. [31]
Indicating the power of the princeps's stylistic imprimatur, even
the polemical debates between the "Atticists" and "Asianists," which
had so characterized the last days of the Republic, simply
disappeared.

After discussing the earliest three types of Octavian/Augustus's
portraiture, Boschung turns his attention to the old Forbes type,
which he renames the Paris Louvre MA 1280 type (pp. 27-37, 60-65),
after a head in the Musee du Louvre (cat. no. 44, pls. 36, 37; Fig.
4). This portrait he takes to he the best replica of his Kerngruppe,
which includes also three other replicas (cat. no. 45, pl. 38; cat.
no. 41, pl. 39; cat. no. 37, pl. 40). Of the thirty replicas in this
group, he identifies fifteen as belonging to the lost prototype,
with two Replikengruppen, or subtypes: one group of eleven replicas,
of which the best representative is a head in Stuttgart (cat. no.
58, pls. 52, 53; Fig. 6); the other, a group of four replicas, best
represented by a recut head in Copenhagen (Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek
611, cat. no. 60, pl. 64; Fig. 7). Boschung postulates (pp. 35-37)
that the first of these subtypes (his Stuttgart replica group) was
created under the influence of the Prima Porta type, while the other
(Kopenhagen 61 1 replica group) would be a later (posthumous?)
modification of the type. All of the replicas of the Kopenhagen 611
group are dated after the death of Augustus.

As in the case of Octavian's earliest portrait types, the dating of
the original lost prototype behind the Forbes/Paris Louvre MA 1280
portrait has been much debated. The two principal dates proposed for
the creation of the prototype are about 30-27 B.C.E. (therefore
predating the creation of the Prima Porta type) and about 17 B.C.E.,
in connection with the Ludi Saeculares (Secular Games). Some have
argued that the old Forbes type (Paris Louvre MA 1280) reflected the
need for a new official Redaktion (updating/correction/edition) of
the highly classicizing Prima Porta type because that type would
have appeared to be too impersonal an image (p. 52 and n. 192). To
support this claim, those who favor the 17 B.C.E. date cite the
appearance of the Forbes type, with its distinctive lock formation,
on denarii of L. Vinicius in 16 B.C.E. (pp. 60-61, pl. 239.2-3). The
three-dimensional replica that best shows the configuration of locks
over the forehead in the numismatic image is a labeled bronze bust
of Augustus fro m Neuilly-le-Real in the Louvre (acc. no. N 3254,
cat, no. 55, pl. 63), whose antiquity has been questioned in the
past (incorrectly, I believe). A few have associated the creation of
the Forbes type with the setting up of the Ara Pacis (13-9 B.C.E.),
[32] on which Augustus is represented with a hairstyle associated
with this type, and/or Augustus's becoming Pontifex Maximus (high
priest of the Roman state religion) in 12 B.C.E. [33] For this type,
Hans Jucker preferred the designation Ara Pacis type. [34]

For Boschung, the L. Vinicius issue reflects not the original
prototype of his Paris Louvre MA 1280 type, which he dates to about
29-27, but rather an edited version of that prototype, which he sees
reflected in a group formed around the portrait in Stuttgart (cat.
no. 58, pls. 52, 53). Boschung (p. 63) sees the Stuttgart replica
group, unlike the original prototype, as being influenced by the
Prima Porta type. I am inclined to agree that the original prototype
of Boschung's Paris Louvre MA 1280 type was probably created before
the Prima Porta type, quite possibly in commemoration of Augustus's
triple triumph in 29 B.C.E. The fact that it would have largely been
replaced so soon after its creation by the Prima Porta type would
also explain why it is hardly found outside Italy (p. 84). Had the
principal type first been produced after the Prima Porta type (that
is, about 17 B.C.E.), then we would probably expect to find far more
replicas of the Paris Louvre MA 1280 type disseminated throughout
the vast Roman Empire.

The last of Boschung's main types is the old Prima Porta type (pp.
38-59, 60-65), which takes its name from the famous statue of
Augustus from Livia's country villa at Prima Porta, now in the
Braccio Nuovo of the Musei Vaticani (cat. no. 171, pls. 69, 70; Fig.
5). Including the Prima Porta sculpture, a total of 148 replicas are
catalogued by Boschung as belonging to this type, with another six
cameo images of Augustus reflecting his Prima Porta hairstyle. The
number of three-dimensional replicas and versions (adaptations,
variants, new creations) of this type (more than doubles the number
of surviving versions of all his other types) indicates its great
popularity. Among the reasons for the success and endurance of the
Prima Porta type are the simplicity and geometry of its very
distinctive pincer and fork arrangement of hair locks over the
forehead. Although the earliest known replica of the Prima Porta
type is a bronze head from Meroe in the British Museum (cat. no.
122, p1. 195), which can be securely dat ed before 25 B.C.E., most
portrait specialists see this type as having been created around the
time of the founding of the principate in 27 B.C.E. This supposition
is further confirmed by Ulrich Hausmann's association of the Prima
Porta type with Augustus's numismatic images on cistophori from
Pergamon that can be closely dated to 27-25 B.C.E. (pp. 53, 61 and
n. 255, pl. 239.4). [35]

In his conclusion to chapter 3 (pp. 61-65), Boschung points out that
unlike the Alcudia type, which looked back to the tradition of late
Republican portraiture, the Prima Porta type conveys in its design
(Entwurf) the physiognomy of the princeps in a classicizing
Formensprache (language of forms), which depends especially on
Polykleitan forms. By blending with prototypical forms of Greek art,
the personality of the princeps, according to Boschung, retreated
behind a Kunstfigur, which had to appear unassailable through its
aesthetic qualities. Although the more intensive classicizing
physiognomic features and ordered hairstyle of the Prima Porta type
are indeed oriented toward the high Classical ideal, as expressed in
the portrait image of Perikles, the end result points more in the
direction of late Classical portraiture, which softens the frozen
forms of the ideal Classical stereotype, permitting the personality
of the individual to shine through the ideal type. Although an icon
(in the modern sense of the word) is created in the process, this
image of Augustus remains a portrait, while embodying at the same
time a new concept of the heroic ideal. In my opinion, this new
Augustan model stands, in a sense, midway between Greek high
Classical and late Classical concepts of portraiture, even as the
statue of Augustus from Prima Porta stands midway in its proportions
between the old Polykleitan and Lysippan canons. [36] In attempting
to challenge and outdo earlier prototypical concepts of the heroic
ideal, the sculptor created the new Augustan heroic ideal. Although
the complexity of these concepts would have been meaningful to only
a small elite group, [37] the new ecumenical Augustan portrait image
did capture the popular imagination, as attested by the great number
of extant images of this type found throughout the empire. Like
Octavian/Augustus's previous types, the official image was
reinterpreted to varying degrees, with a wide range of stylistic
treatments of facial features and hairstyles (compare, for exam ple,
pls. 148, 149). And even though Augustus's earlier types continued
to be reproduced, some examples of the older types show the
influence of the new Prima Porta type, even to the extent of being
Typenklitterungen (contaminated types). The continued production of
earlier types after the creation of the Prima Porta type may have
been related to the commemoration of earlier events from the
princeps's life. [38]Boschung's attempt in chapter 4 (pp. 66-82) to
date individual surviving replicas and versions of Augustus's
various portrait types constitutes one of the most problematic
aspects of his work. Only a terminus post quem or a terminus ante
quem can be established for most of the portraits. Contributing to
the dating problem is the fact that Augustus, who was deified after
his death, played an important role in the dynastic politics of
subsequent principes and so his image continued to be reproduced
during the principates of his successors. It is often extremely
difficult, in any case, to date an individual work on stylistic
grounds alone because of eclecticism and variability in workshop
practices. Demonstrative of this problem is the case of the handsome
portrait of Augustus from Ariccia in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts
(cat. no. 80, pls. 119.3, 120), which has been dated from Angustan
to Hadrianic times (Boschung places it in the period of Caligula).
Similarly, a portrait of Augustus from Fondi in the Museo Nazionale
di Napoli (cat. no. 16, p1. 26), combining a softened form of
classicizing elements with lively, plastically carved hair locks,
has been variously dated because of its stylistic treatment.
Boschung (pp. 17, 61-62, 75, 83) classifies this work as a
Neuschopfung (new creation) dependent on the Alcudia type (but
probably even more so, in my opinion, on the Prima Porta type); he
dates it, apparently correctly, to the Caligulan period because a
pattern of hair locks behind the left ear compares fairly well with
that found in some of Caligula's portraits. [39] Nevertheless, a
strikingly close stylistic comparison of the general treatment of
facial features and hair locks can also be made with Augustus's
numismatic image on a cistophori series from Pergamon (27-25 B.C.E.,
p. 61 and n. 255, p1. 239.4), showing that such a portrait could
also have existed some fifty years earlier. A great range of
stylistic possibilities within a classicizing style (from a hard,
cold, academic treatment to a softer, more mo deled and plastic one)
can also be demonstrated within just the latter half of the Augustan
Principate in the extant portraits of Augustus's grandsons and
adopted sons Gaius and Lucius. [40] The vast majority of their
portraits are datable to the latter part of the Augustan period
because these youths were important only to Augustus's dynastic
plans and played no significant role after his death in 14 C.E.
Augustus's portraits can be dated more securely when they either
bear a strong and intentional physiognomic resemblance to his
successors or have been recut from portraits of his successors who
suffered a "damnatio memoriae," or, more accurately, a memoria
damnata (damned memory), after their death. [41]

In chapter 5 (pp. 83-91), Boschung discusses and attempts to explain
the distribution (based on known provenance) of each of Augustus's
different portrait types in four general regions: (1) Rome and
Italy, (2) the western provinces, (3) the eastern Greek provinces,
and (4) Egypt. Some of his reasoning is speculative. For example,
Boschung assumes that unless carved in a distinctly local style,
most of the marble portraits of the earlier iconographic types from
the western provinces were imported from Rome or Italy. It is
difficult to believe, however, that there were not also local
sculptors (at least in the main Roman centers of the western
provinces) capable of producing high-quality Rome-style portraits
based on imported plaster or clay models. Some of these sculptors
may even have originally come from Rome, elsewhere in Italy, or
Greece. Although there was relatively little good-quality marble
available locally in the western provinces, it does not mean that
raw marble could not have been imported and ca rved in workshops in
some of the larger western Roman centers. Are we to assume, for
example, that the high-quality architectural sculptures of the
Augustan Temple of Gaius and Lucius (Maison Carree) [42] were carved
in Rome and shipped to Nimes?According to Boschung, we do not find
many examples of the Alcudia type in Italy, which was under
Octavian's control in the Second Triumviral period, because such an
emotionally charged image (Pathosbild) would have
appeared "shocking" to the Italians after the civil war period and
would therefore not have been acceptable to them. Boschung
postulates that after the creation of the Prima Porta type, the
Italians would have replaced these Pathosbild versions. This
explanation, however, seems somewhat questionable because the
removal of any images of Octavian after his victories at Actium and
Alexandria (except by his order, as occurred in Rome [43]) might
have been interpreted as an act of disloyalty or even treason.
Although there was no law to the contrary, this did not prevent
charges of treason (maiestas) from being brought against Granius
Marcellus, the praetor of Bithynia, because of his imprudent act of
replacing Augustus's portrait head on a statue with a head of
Tiberius after the death of Augustus (T acitus, Annales 1.74).

To be sure, more replicas of the Alcudia type have been found in the
western provinces than in Italy, but the provinces, too, were under
Octavian's control during the Second Triumviral period. Boschung
suggests that the inhabitants of the western provinces would not
have been as "sensitive" as the Italians about the civil war period
when the Alcudia type was in vogue. According to Boschung's
hypothesis, there would have been no need, therefore, to replace
later on the replicas of the Alcudia type in the western provinces.
There may, however, be another explanation for the relative lack of
portraits of the Alcudia type in Italy: a number of these portraits
may have been destroyed in the factional strife in Italy during the
civil war period.

In chapter 6 (pp. 92--103), Boschung briefly discusses the copying
of portraits in the early principate, contrasting the copying then
with that practiced in the late Republic. Although Boschung notes
that Augustus was not the first to have his portrait copied, he
makes no mention of the fact that portraits were not merely
occasionally reproduced but already replicated in great numbers in
the late Republic, as we know from the case of M. Marius
Gratidianus, tribune of the Plebs in 87 B.C.E., whose image was set
up in omnibus vicis (in all the districts) of the city (Cicero, De
officiis 3.80; Pliny, Historia naturalis 34.27). By the Augustan
period, the number of such districts (vici) was 265 (Pliny, 3.5.66).
However, in the early principate, portrait images of Augustus were
set up in great numbers not merely in the city of Rome but
throughout the entire Roman Empire. Boschung cites the portrait head
of Augustus from far-off Meroe in Nubia (presumably created a few
years after the original prototype) as an exa mple of how fast and
far the official image of Augustus spread. As Boschung and others
have also pointed out, Augustus's official image was not only copied
but also commonly altered and transformed in various parts of the
empire for a variety of reasons, including the sociopolitical need
to translate the Roman concept of the princeps into local or
regional perceptions of leadership. [44]
Because any typological study of portraiture of necessity seeks to
focus on the similarities among the extant portraits that establish
them as replicas of the lost model, Boschung places relatively
little emphasis on the question of diversity in so many images of
Augustus. In a way, the matter of the great variety in imagery is
more interesting than the similarity among replicas because of what
it tells us about not only the various workshop practices and
traditions current in antiquity but also the nature of ancient
reception and response to images of the leader of state. As far as
similarity is concerned, especially with regard to establishing the
original lost prototype, there are relatively few replicas that make
up Boschung's Kerngruppe.

Collected at the end of chapter 6 is the epigraphic and literary
evidence for the physical appearance of Augustus. Boschung tries to
discover in the extant sculptural portrait types various
characteristics of Augustus's physiognomic features and hairstyle
that are mentioned in the ancient written record. He also attempts
to reconcile or explain discrepancies between the literary and
visual evidence. Despite this necessary endeavor, Boschung, like
many archaeologist/art historians, generally accepts the literary
evidence at face value. However, the validity of this evidence is
often questionable, since certain literary descriptions of
physiognomy might be colored by the didactic nature of ancient
rhetoric (especially epideictic) and its effects in such literary
works as biography and history. Because the ancients believed that
physiognomy could reveal the character and virtues of an individual,
biographers and historians of the period manipulated their evidence
as they saw lit. After all, the primary purpose of biography and
history was not so much to tell the truth as to teach and to
inculcate moral lessons and values. Accordingly, historians and
biographers (most notoriously, Suetonius) used literary and oral
accounts, as well as physioguomic "theory," in shaping their
literary portraits of the great personages of the past.

Summation of Chronology of Augustus's Portrait Typology

I offer below some further thoughts on each of the portrait types,
which are taken up in a hypothetical chronological order and with
possible interpretative reasons offered for their creation. Roman
numerals will be used to designate the different types rather than
names that privilege individual works. Even the old, popular
designation Prima Porta type is problematic because it takes its
name from the statue of Augustus from Prima Porta, which itself
dates no earlier than 20 B.C.E., [45] although the original model of
this type was undoubtedly produced about 27 B.C.E. The old so-called
Actium type (Boschung's Alcudia type) we now know, too, to have been
created a number of years before the Battle of Actium in 31 B.C.E.
The neutral designations Type I, Type II, and so on, also allow for
the possibility of new portrait discoveries that might better
represent a lost model than does the "named" portrait. Any subgroups
or subtypes (as in Boschung's Stuttgart or Kopenhagen 611 series)
can then be assigned a letter of the alphabet: hence, Type III.A,
Type III.B. An "S" can also be assigned if there is only one subtype
(for example, Type II.S) or a "V" if there is a variant of a given
type (for example, II.V).

As possibly the earliest type, Type I (Boschung's Beziers-Spoleto
type; Fig. 1) would presumably have been used for Augustus's gilded
equestrian statue in Rostris in 43 B.C.E. The two portraits
representing this type show him as very idealized and more youthful
than either of his other two early types. Because the statue set up
to Augustus by the Senate in Rostris was equestrian, it would have
represented him as a military leader, or imperator. The title of
imperator was the first to appear on his earliest coin type, which
likewise shows the equestrian image. Type I might therefore be
called secondarily his Imperator type. In 43 B.C.E., when this type
was still current, Octavian became consul and, toward the end of the
year, triumvir. Probably only two examples of Type I survive because
it was so limited not only in time but also geographically, being
found only in the west, Octavian's sphere of influence as triumvir.
This type would have been created before the great impetus to copy
portraits that came with the founding of the principate and
Augustus's inauguration of peace throughout the entire Roman world.

In my opinion, little thought went into the creation of Type I
insofar as its social or ideological impact was concerned, mainly
because it was created out of a sudden need, namely, for the gilded
equestrian image to be set up in Rostris in 43 B.C.E. Shortly
thereafter, this type was probably deemed unsatisfactory in that it
represented Octavian, now imperator, consul, and triumvir, as too
young and ineffectual-looking. Such a characterization, in fact, had
been part of the anti-Octavian propaganda promoted by his rival Marc
Antony and Antony's supporters. Antony's famous political barb,
preserved by Cicero (Orationes Philippicae 13.25), "et te, o puer,
qui omnia nomini debes" (And you, o boy, who owe everything to a
name), must have been an exceedingly painful reminder of Octavian's
political inferiority in that it implied he would have been nothing
if not for Caesar's name.

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In order to appear as triumvir and equal to Marc Antony, Octavian
needed a more powerful image that conveyed to the Roman people that
he was both the worthy heir of Caesar, who had become a state god
(divas) in 42 B.C.E., and the leader of the Caesarean party in
opposition to Antony. In Type II (Boschung's Lucus Feroniae type;
Fig. 2), which might be considered secondarily Octavian's First
Triumvir type, a more mature-looking and emotionally charged image
of a leader was created through an increased use of classicizing
elements. The portraitist started with the old Hellenistic concept
of the Pathosbild, which had already been employed for powerful
images of Roman leaders. For Octavian's new image, the old pathos
formula with its baroque elements was toned down (Pathos-dampfung),
as it was made to harmonize with classicizing tendencies. [46] Like
Type I, Type II seems not to have been too successful, since both
essentially experimental types were shortly replaced by Augustus's
third type.
Type III (Boschung's Alcudia type, formerly the Actium/Octavian
type; Fig. 3) was created as an even more evocative image that would
both compensate for Octavian's youth and inexperience and better
reflect his auctoritas. Type III may even have started out as a
subtype of II but later replaced it as the main type. In Type III
Octavian has a more simplified hairstyle with a reduction of the
number of reverse-comma-shaped locks over the right temple and more
agitated locks over the middle of the forehead. Although some have
taken this as a reference to Alexander's famous upswept anastole, or
upswelling, wave-like, hairdo, any such citation would only have
been very indirect. The somewhat agitated locks were probably meant
to portray Octavian as more of a man of action. This portrait became
the image of choice for about a decade, lasting throughout the rest
of the Triumviral period, for which reason it might also be called
the Second Triumvir type.

Type IV (Boschung's Paris Louvre MA 1280 type, formerly the Forbes
type; Fig. 4) logically followed Type III to satisfy a need for a
new image of the leader after the end of the Civil War, a period
that Octavian/Augustus wanted to put behind him. [47] Although not
noted by Boschung, the pattern of locks at the back of the head of a
Type III portrait in the Museo Capitolino in Rome (Stanza degli
Imperatori, 2, cat. no. 23, pl. 14.2) is very similar to that of the
Louvre MA 1280 head (cat. no. 4-4, pl. 37.2). This closeness helps
establish a direct relationship between Types III and IV. This third
type would have satisfied a need for a more mature image with a more
classicizing, composed hairstyle, in preference to Octavian's more
emotionally charged, though still somewhat classicizing image
(Alcudia/Actium type), which had been so closely associated with the
turmoil of the Second Triumviral period.

Type IV would have served not only to commemorate Augustus's triple
triumph in 29 B.C.E., the year in which this type was most likely
created, but also to celebrate the closing of the doors of Janus and
the peace that Octavian had finally brought to the Roman world, an
accomplishment of which he himself proudly boasts in his Res
Gestae: "terra marique... parta victoriis pax" (Monumentum Ancyranum
13). Type IV might be called secondarily Augustus's "Triumphator"
type. After his triple triumph in 29 B.C.E., he was never to
celebrate another triumph, although he had the right to do so when
those who served under his auspicia had successfully conducted a war
for which a triumph could be voted by the Roman Senate. [48] An
important head of Augustus in the Museo Capitolino reflecting this
type (cat. no. 45, pl. 38) shows him wearing the corona civica with
three gemstones, presumably one for each of his three victories.
Even so, the prototype (Urbild) would have been created without the
wreath, since any given type would have to serve for various kinds
of images.

With the death of Antony and the end of the triumvirate, Octavian
was in sole control of the government. He was now ready to turn his
attention to stabilizing the political situation and creating a new
constitution that would be acceptable to the majority of the Roman
aristocrats. To celebrate the founding of a new form of government
based on the principle of governance by a princeps, or "first
citizen" as well as Octavian's assumption of his new
name, "Augustus," with all of its sacral aura, a new ecumenical
image was needed that was both retrospective and prospective:
retrospective in that it invited comparison with the prototypical
ideal of the Classical Greek past and prospective in that it
reflected the optimism of the Augustan Principate and transformed
Augustus into the new model of the heroic ideal. [49] Although
Boschung sees this Type V (his Prima Porta type; Fig. 5) as becoming
rather static and sterile as time went on, this view seems to me too
modern. The very reason for the success of this type was its
symbolic value: it became an icon for the stability and durability
of the Augustan Principate. Because Type V initially seems to have
celebrated Octavian's taking the new name Augustus and becoming
princeps, it might be called secondarily the Princeps type.

Boschung argues convincingly that the prototype of his Stuttgart
replica group (what I would call Type IV.A; Fig. 6) is represented
on the coins of L. Vinicius in 17 B.C.E., the year of the Secular
Games, with which this subtype may have been particularly
associated. Type IV.A would represent a new redaction of Type IV
under the influence of Type V, [50] which continued to be replicated
in great numbers. For the image of Augustus on the Ara Pacis (cat.
no. 56; pls. 59.1-2, 225.1), it is a subtype, Type IV.A, that is
employed, rather than the earlier prototype, Type IV, as had
previously been believed. [51] Boschung assumes that his Stuttgart
replica group (IV.A) was employed on the Ara Pacis only because it
was the latest official image of Augustus produced. Although this
may have been the case, I believe there may also have been an
ideological intent. To my mind, the use on the Ma Pacis of IV.A,
representing a combination of Types IV and V, was intended to herald
Augustus as the triumphant princeps who inau gurates a new golden
age of peace. His triumphant return from Spain and Gaul was, after
all, the original and official reason for the Senate's voting him
the Ara Pacis (Monumentum Ancyranum, 12). This triumphal imagery
would also fit the larger context of the Augustan monuments of the
northern Campus Martius, especially if Augustus's great dynastic
Mausoleum was crowned--as I believe it was--not with a statua
pedestris (a statue representing an individual on foot) but with a
quadrigate image of him (in a four-horse chariot) as triumphator
perpetuus (perpetual triumpher). [52]

Type IV.A may also have been seen as particularly appropriate for
representations of Augustus in an augural role. This subtype appears
to have been used for the relief portrait of Augustus on the altar
from Vicus Sandaliarius (cat. no. 36, pl. 67.4-5), [53] on which he
appears holding the lituus (the crook-shaped staff of the augur) as
he takes augury in connection with the departure of his adoptive son
Gaius, who, under the auspices of Augustus (auspiciis Augusti), is
about to set out on his eastern campaign in 2 B.C.E. [54] In the
case of augury in relation to the Ara Pacis, I have argued elsewhere
that Augustus was originally represented in the south processional
frieze performing an augural act in connection with either the
inauguration of the area on which the altar was to be built or
possibly an augurium or maximum augurium salutis Rei Publicae, [55]
which was performed for the safety of the state in years in which
peace was renewed. An augurium salutis is known to have taken place
in 29 B.C.E. and, gi ven the nature of this type of augury, it is
reasonable to surmise that it was also performed in connection with
the Secular Games in 17 B.C.E. (when IV.A appears on the coins of L.
Vinicius), as well as on the occasion of the inauguration of the Ara
Pacis in 13 B.C.E. [56] Augustus's appearance on the Altar of Peace
in an augural capacity would have emphasized his role not only as
inaugurator of a new golden age of peace and prosperity but also as
mediator between gods and man. The form of the Ara Pacis, with its
bifrontality and double set of doors, consciously recalled the
Shrine of Janus Geminus in the Roman Forum, [57] whose doors had
been closed to signify peace only twice in all of Roman history
before 29 B.C.E. [58] Following the completion of the Ma Pacis in 9
B.C.E., it is likely that its doors would have been opened in the
future when the doors of Janus were closed. The use of IV.A for a
representation of Augustus in an augural role on the Ara Pacis and
on the altar from Vicus Sandaliarius might ex plain why this subtype
is found only in Rome and Italy (p. 84). [59] The Roman religious
practice of augury was meaningful primarily in these areas.

Of the two subtypes of Type IV that Boschung identifies, IV.B
(Boschung's Kopenhagen 611 replica group; Fig. 7) is the more
puzzling. Because of points of comparisons shared among three of the
replicas (cat. no. 60, pl. 64; cat. no. 62, p1. 65; cat. no. 61, p1.
66), including the turn of the head to the left side, [60] they
appear to belong to a subtype different from that of the Stuttgart
head. It is uncertain how long after IV.A this subtype was created.
Although an approximate terminus post quem for IV.B would probably
be 13 B.C.E. (when the Ma Pacis was begun), this subtype may have
been created after Augustus's death in 14 C.E. (Boschung dates the
three extant replicas posthumously). If IV.B were first created
after Augustus's death, it may have been in response to a need for a
separate, posthumous portrait model. If so, based on the small
number of extant replicas, IV.B never caught on.

With regard to the evolution of Augustus's main portrait types, it
might seem odd that there was such a short period of time between
the creation of Types I, II, and III and then between Types IV and
V, but that is because we have the (dis)advantage of hindsight. The
relative brevity of the time between the creation of Types I, II,
and III and again between Types IV and V can be explained in light
of the demands of a rapidly changing political situation that
necessitated the creation of new portrait types. Perhaps somewhat
analogous to multiple prototypes within a short range of time is the
use of three different titles on coins issued in the year 43 B.C.E.,
the first title referring to Octavian's being imperator, then
consul, and finally triumvir r.p.c. (rei publicae constituendae).
[61] These titles reflect just how quickly the political
circumstances were changing.

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Variability and Assimilation in Portraiture

One important issue that I wish to discuss further is the question
of variability in Roman portraiture and some of the possible reasons
for it. Although historians might tend to think of the distribution
of Augustus's portraits as part of some grand imperial
propagandistic scheme, the great variability of his extant portraits
from all over the Roman Empire indicates, if anything, the lack of
any strict government control of how the princeps was portrayed.
Based on the internal evidence, it is now generally believed that
portrait models of the princeps and members of his family were made
available to the "art market," which played an active, if not, in
fact, the primary role in the dissemination o<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47941 From: Titus Iulius Sabinus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Californianis Sal.: Thanks to Iulius Verus.
SALVE IULI VERE !

My gratitude for your donations to MMP!
For two years Iulius Verus is the greatest investor of the Project.

"Tranquilius", indeed, but determinate and dedicated,Iulius Verus is
a man of facts.

I'm honored to thank you, in my name and in the MMP Collegium name,
too. Your name is presented to the MMP investors' page:
http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/project/investors.htm

To the site is written:
"Many small stones together exist and create great temples."
I believe that your support represent an entire column.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS
MMP Custodiant.
Curule Aedile.







--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Mullin <KILIKA143@...>
wrote:
>
> ALOHA
> GAIUS IULIUS VERUS "TRANQUILLUS "
> HONOLULU, HAWAII
> VALETE
>
> Lucius Iunius wrote:
>
> >L. Iunius, sine cognomine, civibus Californianis sal.
> >
> >Recently, to satisfy my curiosity, I asked on
the "CaliforniaNovaRoma" yahoo group for all
> >active NR citizens in Provincia Californiana (from the US states
Hawaii, California, and Nevada)
> >to post a quick hello. I'm trying to get a feel for our
numbers. If any of you Californiani out
> >there are not yet a member of the CaliforniaNovaRoma group,
please drop in and make your
> >presence felt. Vobis gratias ago!
> >
> >Valete.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47942 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
Salve Gai Iuli,

G. Iulius Scaurus wrote:

> I stand before you as a candidate for the quaestorship.

Thank you. I'm sure you'll do well.

Vale,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47943 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: post. Kal. Dec. (a.d. IV Non. Dec.)
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est postridie Kalendas Decembris (ante diem IV Nones Decembris);
haec dies nefastus aterque est.

"Neither of these plans was approved and Herennius was carried home
from the camp. In the Roman camp, after many fruitless attempts had
been made to break out and they found themselves at last in a state of
utter destitution, necessity compelled them to send envoys to the
Samnites to ask in the first instance for fair terms of peace, and
failing that to challenge them to battle. Pontius replied that all war
was at an end, and since even now that they were vanquished and
captured they were incapable of acknowledging their true position, he
should deprive them of their arms and send them under the yoke,
allowing them to retain one garment each. The other conditions would
be fair to both victors and vanquished. If they evacuated Samnium and
withdrew their colonists from his country, the Roman and the Samnite
would henceforth live under their own laws as sovereign states united
by a just and honourable treaty. On these conditions he was ready to
conclude a treaty with the consuls, if they rejected any of them he
forbade any further overtures to be made to him. When the result was
announced, such a universal cry of distress arose, such gloom and
melancholy prevailed, that they evidently could not have taken it more
heavily if it had been announced to them all that they must die on the
spot. Then followed a long silence. The consuls were unable to breathe
a word either in favour of a capitulation so humiliating or against
one so necessary. At last L. Lentulus, of all the staff-officers the
most distinguished, both by his personal qualities and the offices he
had held, spoke: "I have often," he said, "heard my father, consuls,
say that he was the only one in the Capitol who refused to ransom the
City from the Gauls with gold, for the force in the Capitol was not
invested and shut in with fosse and rampart, as the Gauls were too
indolent to undertake that sort of work; it was therefore quite
possible for them to make a sortie involving, perhaps, heavy loss, but
not certain destruction. If we had the same chance of fighting,
whether on favourable or unfavourable ground, which they had of
charging down upon the foe from the Capitol, in the same way as the
besieged have often made sorties against their besiegers, I should not
fall behind my father's spirit and courage in the advice which I
should give. To die for one's country is, I admit, a glorious thing,
and as concerns myself I am ready to devote myself for the people and
legions of Rome or to plunge into the midst of the enemy. But it is
here that I behold my country, it is on this spot that all the legions
which Rome possesses are gathered, and unless they wish to rush to
death for their own sakes, to save their honour, what else have they
that they can save by their death. 'The dwellings of the City,'
somebody may reply, ' and its walls, and that crowd of human beings
who form its population.' Nay, on the contrary, all these things are
not saved, they are handed over to the enemy if this army is
annihilated. For who will protect them? A defenceless multitude of
non-combatants, I suppose; as successfully as it defended them from
the approach of the Gauls. Or will they implore the help of an army
from Veii with Camillus at its head ? Here and here alone are all our
hopes, all our strength. If we save these we save our country, if we
give these up to death we desert and betray our country. 'Yes,' you
say, 'but surrender is base and ignominious.' It is; but true
affection for our country demands that we should preserve it, if need
be, by our disgrace as much as by our death. However great then the
indignity, we must submit to it and yield to the compulsion of
necessity, a compulsion which the gods themselves cannot evade! Go,
consuls, give up your arms as a ransom for that State which your
ancestors ransomed with gold!" - Livy, History of Rome 9.4


On this day in A.D. 1814, Donatien Alphonse Francois, comte de Sade
(although he always referred to himself as the "Marquis de Sade"),
died at the insane asylum at Charenton (now Saint-Maurice,
Val-de-Marne) near Paris.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47944 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Salve,

"6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> Republican Romans."

Adding the words of excellent Hortensia, this giant of NR, I just
would like to add Fustel de Coulanges´ "Ancient City" book. I´ve found
in a downloadable format. It is a very good book, specially because it
explain all greek-roman society organization based on the Religio, and
better, the Private Religio.

And also let´s not forget to read from the own Ancient Sources. No
historian can subistitute the own emotion to read a Livius, Polybius,
Tacitus, Salustius, Appian, Suetonius, Plutarch, et al. Also the
greeks have much to say, Herodotus and Tucidides (although Polybius,
Plutarch and Appian were greeks). And most important, much Historians
´don´t say´, we interpret them.

Words like Metellus and Hortensia are a refreshment on this list. I
really don´t like the tone some have here when discussing Religio on
ML. I still fell the gap between the priesthoods and the magistratures
is tearing NR appart, on its Middle Age conception of a saecular power
of the magistrates and the holy and unfalible religious power that
teaches the saecular power what to do and hovers mightly and
untouchable. The power is derived from the gods, and the gods allows
all other powers (specially the Comitia under the auspices of the
state).

Some people can deny this problem, it is their right. However, the
disconfort we see about this subject is a proof of this ill feeling NR
is going down on this matter. I confess I have not answers in
definitive. It is too much arrogance someone can say "have" the
answer.

I can only pray the gods to give us not wiseness, but tolerance.
Without tolerance with the differences, there is no discussion, there
is no advance. I could read all word of latin and greek remaining from
the Ancient - without knowing how to deal with modern and live people,
nothing is worthy.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Fautus

2006/12/2, Maior <rory12001@...>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> M. Hortensia P. Caecilio Metello Fl. Galerio Quiritibusque spd;
> my pardon for making an omnibus post but it is
> sensible to discuss this issue as it is one issue:
>
> 1. The CP's reform according to the mos of the Middle Republic. I
> reposted Cordus' researched post with his named scholarly sources.
>
> 2. Iulius Scaurus' post is just his opinion unless pertinent modern
> scholarly sources are attached. Since he proposed the 54 day
> unhistoric superstitio, he really must provide documentation from
> top-class scholars. He has a university library at his disposal
>
> 3. Since along with Cordus, Saturninus, Faustus, Piscinus, Astur,
> Metellus, Modianus and many other cives etc I wish to see the CP
> reformed to its historic roots, this means keeping all collegia;
> Fetiales, Arval Brotherhood etc. And all the dieties and feria in
> the Republican calender
>
> 4. Flavi Galeri; please address me as Marca Hortensia or Hortensia
> Maior, according to Republican usage. There is a fine scholarly
> article "Choosing a Roman Name" in the NRwiki which discusses this
> very subject. Read it & use it. As a magistrate you set the example
>
> 5. having studied French, Italian, Russian at University & German at
> grad school last year, I assure you I have read every book & more on
> Roman prosographia, nomenclature, history, law etc. I expect to help
> teach Roman Law at the Academia Thules. Future pontiffs should be
> multilingual.
>
> 6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> Republican Romans.
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
> >
> > Salve, Colleague.
> >
> > You make a number of different points in your missive here, all of
> which
> > deserve inquisition to the fullest extent. So, being the
> inquisitor I
> > am, I would like to ask a number of questions about the points you
> > raise. I will, of course, quote you directly as much as I am able.
> >
> > Scripsti:
> >
> > > In the entire
> > > corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of
> the
> > > Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> > > Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a
> decretum
> > > independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or
> defied
> > > by the Senate or any magistrate.
> >
> > I am not in a position to deny you that the Senate and "civil"
> > magistrates always followed the direction of the Collegium
> Pontificum on
> > sacred matters. I haven't the time to pour through every shred of
> > extant ancient literature to adequately take up such a position,
> at any
> > rate. However, you seem to take the position that we need to
> ensure
> > that the Senate and the "civil" magistrates could not have the
> ability
> > to act contrary to the direction of the Collegium Pontificum. In
> which
> > case, I would like to know where, in the ancient sources, the fact
> that
> > these authorities lacked the ability to act contrary to the
> direction of
> > the Collegium Pontificum is explicitely stated.
> >
> > > Religious matters
> > > are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in
> Livy's
> > > narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates.
> To
> > > infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> > > information service for the Senate and magistrates is
> methodologically
> > > incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does
> cite
> > > instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent
> action
> > > and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action.
> >
> > About this last part, "instances in which the Collegium Pontificum
> took
> > independant action and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate
> to
> > take action", I would personally find it nothing short of helpful
> if you
> > could cite some specific examples.
> >
> > > Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> > > decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in
> response
> > > to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum,
> decretum
> > > collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth.
> >
> > As above, some specific examples would be helpful.
> >
> > > It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this
> fallacious
> > > claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> > > pontifices.
> >
> > I would here too be very appreciative if you could point out to me
> where
> > the contention that responsa would be issued only by individual
> > pontifices was stated within the proposals.
> >
> > > If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual
> responsa by
> > > individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> > > should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is
> clear
> > > that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his
> designate)
> > > to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of
> the
> > > Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all
> the
> > > Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> > > serious matters â€" the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or
> incestum,
> > > the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. â€" required a
> larger
> > > number of pontifices still and their collective action. What
> Cicero
> > > presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> > > collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is
> starkly
> > > contradictory to the proposed "reform."
> >
> > Again, if you could point out specifically where, in the
> proposals, it
> > is the case that responsa would only be issued by individual
> pontifices,
> > I would appreciate it. As it were, without delving too far into
> > statements made in chambers, I recall it being specifically stated
> that
> > a responsum needed three pontifices to be issued as a responum
> > pontificum; some support to your statement would be helpful.
> >
> > > The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> > > Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> > > suppression of the Bacchanalia.
> >
> > Could you show us where this was stated in the proposals?
> >
> > > I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> > > disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum.
> >
> > Again, if you could point out the source of this example, and
> elaborate
> > upon it, I'm sure we would all find it helpful.
> >
> > > It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped
> until it
> > > is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command
> of the
> > > ancient sources.
> >
> > Following this, Scaure, would very easily be the statement that
> the
> > entire proposal of Nova Roma be abandoned "until it is in accord
> with
> > the practices revealed by a competent command of the ancient
> sources."
> > It may be far better for us to be careful where we tread here.
> >
>
>



--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47945 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
Cato omnes SPD

Salvete!

Yes, I would welcome the addition of Iulius Scaurus to my cohors, as I
think any magistrate would.

I have asked those who served in my cohors last year to remain, and am
preparing to open my office to the public once the New Year begins and
I have entered into my praetorship. Anyone who is interested in
joining my cohors need only write to me and begin the discussion.

A special word of thanks to Gn. Iulius Caesar, whose help has been
invaluable in the past year, and who acted as my quaestor; he has
agreed to continue in my cohors in 2760 AUC, and I look forward to his
acerbic commentary and intelligent discourse as he helps steer a
course towards a more practical, useful existence for the Republic as
the primus inter pares of my scribae.

A note here: I have asked people from all shades of the political and
religious spectrum to help me in my magistracies; I believe that we
can only learn if we are challenged to defend our own views and
investigate all sides of a question. I have disagreed fiercely with
many of those whose help I seek and have sought - including Iulius
Caesar - and have recognized the immense benefits of being held
accountable for the ideas I have. You can often learn much more from
those who disagree with you than from those with whom you agree.

Caesar, Agricola, Cordus, Agrippa, to name a few - all of them
intelligent, resourceful, and without fear of calling me to task. I
look forward to more in the future.

Valete bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47946 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: Re: Regarding "Reform" of the Religio
A. Apollonius C. Julio sal.

You're right that when Cn. Salvius and I hammered out the first draft of this document we were not in full command of all the relevant sources. Neither of us has devoted more than an amateur's study to the subject, and only over the last few years. Any greater expertise that you can bring to bear is very welcome to me.

It is very clear, and I'm sure you'll agree, that the current legal rules governing our public religious institutions, and in particular the way in which the collegium pontificum functions in our constitutional system, is quite distant from that of the ancient republic. Cn. Salvius felt that it was important for this to change, and when he put this to me I was inclined to agree. I said I would do my best to help, and I did. What we produced was the closest we could get to a reconstruction of how the ancient public religious institutions seemed to work. If it can be improved, then so much the better.

So perhaps the proposal should be withdrawn for further work. There are, indeed, several things in it which I know full well are pointlessly unhistorical and which were not in the final draft we produced, so I would be quite happy to see a revision at least to that extent. However, I do very much hope that "withdrawn for further work" doesn't turn out to be "withdrawn and buried along with all efforts to make our public religious institutions function more historically". I don't doubt that many, if not all, your objections are well-founded, but I nonetheless call to mind what you yourself said several years ago about the lex Fabia de ratione comitiorum centuriatorum: the question is not whether it's perfect but whether it's better than what we have now. If it's a choice between the proposal as published and no change at all, then I continue to prefer the proposal as published. But the best option of all would be an improved proposal which takes account of any further historical data you and others can find.

Now I'll just make a few comments on your specific points.

You spent some time refuting the idea of the collegium pontificum as subordinate to the senate. I have to say that in my mind this point needed no refutation: even if I haven't read as much as I should have done, I have read quite enough to satisfy me that there is no basis to this idea. I would hesitate to adopt your description of the collegium and the senate having separate "jurisdictions" because this word seems to imply a judicial function - namely a power to apply the law to specific cases - which is not really what either body exercised. I would prefer to say that the role of the collegium pontificum was to state the jus sacrum. (I suppose this is a judicial function inasmuch as it is the function performed by the judge in a trial by jury in a common-law court, but even so I fear the use of phrases like "sit in judgment" could imply the function not only of the judge but of the jury.) Its power to state the jus sacrum was exclusive and unchallenged: whatever the pontifices stated to be the sacral law was therefore the sacral law. As you say, the affair of Cicero's house demonstrates this very clearly: the pontifices stated the necessary conditions for a consecration to be valid, and the senate unquestioningly accepted that as a correct and authoritative statement of the jus sacrum. The job of the senate was then to advise the magistrates whether or not those conditions were fulfilled in the case at hand, i.e. whether Cicero's house had been validly consecrated.

The corollary of the collegium's exclusive power to state the jus sacrum is that the collegium never attempted to apply that law to specific cases, that being the function of the senate and the magistrates. Now, you could say that this view is disproven by the occasions on which the collegium pontificum quite unequivocally sat as a court and gave judgment against (or in favour of) Vestals and others. My understanding is that this was a very specific exception to the general rule: these cases were essentially disciplinary hearings, rather like those conducted by professional bodies which regulate the conduct of members of their own profession. I've also read at least the suggestion, quite a plausible one to my mind, that in these cases the jurisdiction was really vested in the pontifex maximus and that the collegium was therefore acting merely as his consilium. But that's as may be: as far as I'm aware, there are no examples outside these essentially internal disciplinary cases in which the collegium pontificum went beyond stating the relevant religious rules to actually applying them, let alone seeking to enforce them.

This is the understanding on which Astur and I based the draft. If you have formed the impression that the goal of the proposal is to subordinate the collegium pontificum to the senate or to remove its exclusive power to state the jus sacrum, then either the proposal does not embody our intentions or else you have misread it, or perhaps both. But there's no need to go into any detailed discussion of the proposal as published: a more useful discussion is what any future proposal should seek to achieve.

You mention the fact that the senate never disputed or rejected a formal statement by the collegium pontificum, and this is another point which I am very ready to accept. It was always my intention, and Astur's too as I think, that this would be the case in Nova Roma as well. There were three reasons why we did not actually write this into the proposal. The first was that the purpose of the document was to regulate the conduct of the public priests, and we felt that it was already a large enough document without expanding it to cover not only the duties of the priests but also the duties of the magistrates and the senate. The second is that both he and I both had some hesitation in transforming an invariable practice into a written rule. Although the ultimate outcome is the same, there is still an important difference between the two. The third is that we believed it was sufficient to state that a statement of the jus sacrum made by the collegium pontificum was authoritative and unchallangeable (except by the collegium itself). It should follow inevitably from this principle that the senate will never reject or dispute such a statement.

To summarize what I've said above, what the proposal was designed to do - whether it in fact does so or not - was not to make the collegium pontificum subordinate to the senate or to remove its exclusive power to state the jus sacrum. It was simply designed to narrow the scope of that exclusive power. As things stand at the moment, the collegium pontificum can (and does) not only state the rules of the jus sacrum but issue legislation on any subject it pleases (for example its creation of an entirely new criminal offence) and also give judgment against or in favour of individual citizens (for example its declaration that M. Hortensia, in her previous incarnation was, and later was not, nefas).

There remain two more points outstanding from your message. One concerns quora, and the other concerns pontifical intiative. The point about quora caused us some difficulty. On the one hand there is evidence that individual pontifices could and did issue responsa without consulting their colleagues. On the other hand there is evidence, including the passages you quote from Cicero, that a responsum endorsed by three or more pontifices was regarded as somehow more authoritative than one supported by only one or two. After some discussion we conjectured as follows. In the earliest times, three pontifices would have represented a majority of the collegium pontificum. Thus it was logical that a responsum issued by a single pontifex, or by two, could be overruled by three pontifices, but a responsum supported by three pontifices was necessarily unchallengable. The collegium was in due course expanded to include plebejan members. At this point the obvious thing to do would have been to say that a responsum had to be endorsed by six pontifices in order to be authoritative - why was it not done? Perhaps, we thought, it was the religious conservatism of the Romans, or perhaps it was because the patrician pontifices wanted to ensure that the plebejan members couldn't overrule their past rulings by a mere majority. At any rate, three remained the minimum number of pontifices necessary to make a ruling authoritative, but it was still possible for "provisional" rulings to be made by individual pontifices, and this was normally sufficient for responsa given to private citizens or given on uncontroversial issues. Admittedly this is all rather speculative, but it was the best we could do. This is the reason why the proposal as published seeks to create a mechanism whereby the bulk of ordinary responsa (of the kind Cicero has in mind when he says that "the assuagement of a religious scruple can justifiably be made by only one experienced pontifex") can be given by individual pontifices without the need for the formal convention of the pontifices in a committee but which also allows matters of real religious andpublic importance to be discussed and settled in the more formal manner we see in operation in the de domo and the de responso.

On the question of the colleges acting on their own initiative, I'm grateful for your references. Two of them refer to those disciplinary matters which I tend to think of as an exception to the general rule. Livy 8.15.5-6 (which you didn't actually cite but which is immediately adjacent to one of your references) could well be the augural college acting on its own motion, but it could equally be that Livy has simply neglected to record the formal process of the matter being referred to the college for a ruling. Livy 34.44, however, does strongly suggest that the pontifex maximus, at least, could raise issues for discussion within the collegium pontificum, and that is perhaps not entirely surprising. I think, however, the proposal did allow for this sort of situation. I can't recall the wording precisely, but I think it provided for a responum to be given in reply to a request by a private citizen as well as by a magistrate, and this could of course include a private citizen who is also a member of the collegium itself. The intention was not to deprive the collegium of all initiative but rather to move the emphasis from where it is now. At the moment it is quite rare for matters to be referred to the priestly collegia from outside, whereas it is quite common for the collegium to send forth unsolicited and indeed largely unexpected declarations into the public sphere; we felt, based on the evidence as we found it, that it would be more historical to move to encourage magistrates and others to refer matters to the colleges rather than having the colleges constantly monitoring and commenting on the ordinary course of public business.

Finally, I think you rather overstate matters when you say that "the proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the suppression of the Bacchanalia". I, at least, have not made a great deal of this at all - rather, it was an afterthought thrown in at the end of a message which was, itself, written in a state of some weariness and exasperation in response to some rather insistent requests for ancient sources which illustrated the way public religious issues were dealt with in the old republic. In fact in general I fear you have been reading my comments on this proposal in a rather more confrontational manner than they merit. What I have principally been concerned to point out is the abundant evidence, all known to you I don't doubt, which shows that the public religious institutions described in the lex constitutiva and observable in operation in the history of Nova Roma is seriously out of line with the way those institutions operated in ancient times. The proposal was meant by Cn. Salvius and by me to be an improvement on that situation. As for the various hidden and semi-hidden political motives and agenda which you detect, I have no knowledge of any of them, and I don't believe Cn. Salvius has anything to do with them. In fact if this proposal were part of a conspiracy to undermine or overthrow the sacra publica then it would rather have shot itself in the foot, since to date the most vocal opposition to it has come from a group of people who regard it as part of a conspiracy to exclude Christians from public office.

I know you will understand how I feel when I say that I am thoroughly weary of this particular proposal, of the various conspiracy-theories which surround it, and of the increasing tendency of various people to use my name as a club with which to hit one another. As far as I'm concerned the proposal has been duly adopted by the collegium pontificum and is therefore binding upon its members. The fact that its members do not seem to be taking any notice of it is disappointing but not, I'm sorry to say, surprising in light of the absolutely dismal record of that body to date. I never supported the idea of having the proposal ratified by the senate or the comitia or written into the lex constitutiva, so I don't care in the slightest whether those things are done or not. The full extent of my involvement in this matter is this: I was asked by a friend to help come up with a model of how our public religious institutions could be redesigned to be more like those of the old republic. Having duly explained that it was not my area of expertise, I read as much as I could reasonably lay my hands on and did my best with what I found. I attempted to explain the thinking behind the model when asked to do so. As far as I'm concerned, that is the end of my part. I am very satisfied to have been one of the very few people making a genuine effort to get something positive done about the unhistorical and dysfunctional arrangements currently existing. If the efforts of one lone pontifex, assisted by one amateur historian who has never claimed to specialize in Roman religion and does not even worship the Roman gods in his sacra privata, turn out to have failed, well, that will not be very surprising. But I hope it will, at least, prompt people to ask, "why, when the chronic dysfunction and historical inaccuracy of our public religious institutions was obvious to everyone, was it left to these two underqualified individuals to do anything about solving it?"





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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47947 From: A. Apollonius Cordus Date: 2006-12-02
Subject: De suffragiis novis
A. Apollonius omnibus sal.

I'm glad that the consules have withdrawn their proposal concerning the breaking of ties in the comitia centuriata. It struck me as extremely undesirable both from a practical point of view (I speak as a former vote-counting official in Nova Roma) and from a historical, political, and religious point of view (I speak as one who has devoted a certain amount of time to studying Roman and modern electoral procedure). In particular I must agree with those who have pointed out in this forum that to regard the casting of lots as somehow unfair, undemocratic, or illogical are displaying a total failure to look at things in a Roman way. In the ancient world the use of lottery was long associated with the most radical forms of democracy, while in the Roman republic it was also particularly associated with the role of the gods in the electoral process. It most certainly was not, as has been suggested, a last resort.

Having said that, it is true that there is considerably more casting of lots in our elections than there was in antiquity, and this tends to make the results of elections more erratic. The solution is not to create an elaborate new method of breaking those ties - a method which incidentally strikes a grave blow against the secrecy of the ballot and simultaneously offends the mos majorum and the pax deorum. The solution is very simple, and was suggested several years ago by C. Julius. It is to halve the number of centuries. The fewer centuries there are, the smaller the likelihood of centuries being tied. It could hardly be easier.


There remain on the ballot a number of other matters. None of them strike me as of monumental importance one way or another. I intend to vote as follows:

Amendment I: in favour. The thought of adding more text to a lex constitutiva which I would rathe repeal entirely doesn't fill me with joy, but this particular addition is relatively small and is an accurate statement of the law of the old and the new republics.

Amendment II: against. It is well-intentioned but not a significant improvement on the current situation. The phrase "a magisterial decision which has a direct negative impact on that citizen" is still far too broad and vague. The definition of provocatio is not in line with ancient law, for in antiquity provocatio could be exercised not only against capital penalties but also against corporal punishment and, in a slightly different way, against fines of more than a certain size. The process of judicial appeal which is catered for is incompatible with the ancient judicial system.

Amendment III: against, for the same reasons as amendment II.

Amendment IV: against. I am persuaded by the evidence adduced by C. Julius that this is contrary to ancient constitutional law. The whole concept of the single, multi-purpose censorial nota is based on an over-simplified understanding of various separate and unrelated censorial powers and needs to be reconsidered.



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47948 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: a.d. III Non. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem III Nones Decembris; haec dies nefastus est.

"The consuls left to confer with Pontius. When the victor began to
insist upon a treaty, they told him that a treaty could not possibly
be made without the orders of the people nor without the fetials and
the usual ceremonial. So that the convention of Claudium did not, as
is commonly believed and as even Claudius asserts, take the form of a
regular treaty. It was concluded through a sponsio, i.e. by the
officers giving their word of honour to observe the conditions. For
what need would there have been in the case of a treaty for any pledge
from the officers or for any hostages, since in concluding a treaty
the imprecation is always used: "By whosesoever default it may come
about that the said conditions are not observed, may Jupiter so smite
that people as this swine is now struck by the fetials." The consuls,
the staff-officers, the quaestors, and the military tribunes all gave
their word on oath, and all their names are extant today, whereas if a
regular treaty had been concluded no names but those of the two
fetials would have survived. Owing to the inevitable delay in
arranging a treaty, 600 equites were demanded as hostages to answer
with their lives if the terms of the capitulation were not observed.
Then a definite time was fixed for surrendering the hostages and
sending the army, deprived of its arms, under the yoke. The return of
the consuls with the terms of surrender renewed the grief and distress
in the camp. So bitter was the feeling that the men had difficulty in
keeping their hands off those "through whose rashness," they said,
"they had been brought into that place and through whose cowardice
they would have to leave it in a more shameful plight than they had
come. They had had no guides who knew the neighbourhood, no scouts had
been thrown out, they had fallen blindly like wild animals into a
trap." There they were, looking at each other, gazing sadly at the
armour and weapons which were soon to be given up, their right hands
which were to be defenceless, their bodies which were to be at the
mercy of their enemies. They pictured to themselves the hostile yoke,
the taunts and insulting looks of the victors, their marching disarmed
between the armed ranks, and then afterwards the miserable progress of
an army in disgrace through the cities of their allies, their return
to their country and their parents, whither their ancestors had so
often returned in triumphal procession. They alone, they said, had
been defeated without receiving a single wound, or using a single
weapon, or fighting a single battle, they had not been allowed to draw
the sword or come to grips with the enemy; courage and strength had
been given them in vain. While they were uttering these indignant
protests, the hour of their humiliation arrived which was to make
everything more bitter for them by actual experience than they had
anticipated or imagined. First of all they were ordered to lay down
their arms and go outside the rampart with only one garment each. The
first to be dealt with were those surrendered as hostages who were
taken away for safe keeping. Next, the lictors were ordered to retire
from the consuls, who were then stripped of their paludamenta. This
aroused such deep commiseration amongst those who a short time ago had
been cursing them and saying that they ought to be surrendered and
scourged, that every man, forgetting his own plight, turned away his
eyes from such an outrage upon the majesty of state as from a
spectacle too horrible to behold." - Livy, History of Rome 9.5



"Publius Clodius was a man of noble birth and notable for his wealth
and reputation, but not even the most notorious scoundrels came close
to him in insolence and audacity. Clodius was in love with Caesar's
wife Pompeia, and she was not unwilling. But a close watch was kept on
the women's apartment, and Caesar's mother Aurelia followed the young
wife around and made it difficult and dangerous for the lovers to
meet. The Romans have a goddess whom they call Good, whom the Greeks
call the Women's Goddess. The Phrygians say that this goddess
originated with them, and that she was the mother of their king Midas.
The Romans say that she was a Dryad nymph who married Faunus, and the
Greeks say that she was the Unnameable One among the mothers of
Dionysus. For this reason the women who celebrate her rites cover
their tents with vine-branches, and a sacred serpent sits beside the
goddess on her throne, as in the myth. It is unlawful for a man to
approach or to be in the house when the rites are celebrated. The
women, alone by themselves, are said to perform rites that conform to
Orphic ritual during the sacred ceremony. As a result, when the time
for the festival comes, and a man is consul or praetor or general, he
goes away and takes every male with him, and his wife takes over the
house and decorates it for the festival. Most of the rites are
celebrated at night, and with great amounts of festivity in the revels
and music as well.

At the time [that the incident occurred] Pompeia was celebrating this
ritual; Clodius did not yet have a beard and for this reason thought
that he would escape detection if he were dressed up as lyre-player,
and went into the house looking like a young woman. He found the doors
open and was led in without difficulty by a slave-woman who was in on
the plot; this woman went to Pompeia and told her, and some time
passed, but Clodius could not bear to wait, and as he was wandering
around the large house and trying to avoid the lights, one of
Aurelia's attendants got hold of him, and asked him to play with her,
as one woman might with another, and when he refused, she dragged him
before the others and asked who he was and where he came from.
Clodius said that he was waiting for Pompeia's slave Abra (which
happened to be the woman's name), and gave himself away by his voice.
The attendant dashed away from him towards the lights and the crowd,
shouting that she had caught a man. The women were terrified, and
Aurelia called a halt to the rites of the goddess and hid the sacred
objects; she ordered the doors to be shut and went around the house
with torches, looking for Clodius. He was found in the room that
belonged to the girl where he had gone in an attempt to escape. When
he was discovered, he was taken through the doors by the women and
thrown out of the house. That night the women went right off and told
their husbands about the affair, and during the day the story spread
through the city that Clodius had been involved in sacrilege and had
committed injustice against not only those he had insulted, but the
city and the gods. Clodius was indicted for sacrilege by one of the
tribunes, and the most influential senators joined forces against him
and testified about other dreadful outrages he had committed and his
incest with his sister, who was married to Lucullus. But the common
people strenuously opposed these senators' efforts, and defended
Clodius, and the mob helped him considerably by terrifying and
frightening the jury. Caesar immediately divorced Pompeia, but when
he was summoned as a witness in the trial said that he knew nothing
about the accusations against Clodius. The prosecutor asked him about
the apparent contradiction: 'why then did you divorce your wife?' He
answered, 'because I thought my wife should be above suspicion'. Some
say that that was what Caesar really thought; others that he was eager
to save Clodius in order to gratify the common people. Clodius was
acquitted because most of the jurors handed in their opinions in
illegible writing, so that they would not endanger themselves with the
common people by voting against him, or disgrace themselves with the
nobility by letting him off." - Plutarch, Lives, "Iulius Caesar"
9.1,4; 10.1-6

Today is held in honor of Bona Dea. Bona Dea is the patron of the
good of the earth and of chastity and fertility in women. She is the
daughter of the god Faunus and she herself is often called Fauna. She
had a temple on the Aventine Hill, but her secret rites were not held
there but in the house of a prominent Roman magistrate or the Pontifex
Maximus. Only women were admitted and even representations of men and
beasts were removed. At these secret meetings it was forbidden to
speak the words 'wine' and 'myrtle' because Faunus had once made her
drunk and beaten her with a myrtle stick. Bona Dea was invoked for
healing and for freedom from slavery; many of her worshippers were
freed slaves and plebians, and many were women seeking aid in sickness
or for fertility. She was also considered a protector from
earthquakes. Bona Dea, or the "Good Goddess", was represented under
the form of a matron with her right hand opened, as if tendering
assistance to the helpless, and holding a loaf in her left hand. She
was also venerated under the name of Ops, and other denominations, but
with the highest attributes; and when so designated, she was
worshipped by men and boys, as well as women and virgins; and priests
ministered to her in dances with brazen cymbals. These motions
signified that the Earth only imparted blessings upon being constantly
moved; and as brass was discovered before iron, the cymbals were
composed of that metal to indicate her antiquity. The worshippers
seated themselves on the ground, and the posture of devotion was
bending forward, and touching the ground with the right hand. Her
sacrificial victim was a sow (porca) called damium. The goddess
herself was also known as Damia and her priestess as damiatrix. These
names are almost certainly Greek, and it is highly probable that the
Greek cult of Damia was grafted onto the original cult of the Roman
goddess Bona Dea. On the head of the goddess was placed a crown of
towers, denoting strength.

In the year 62 B.C, following the consulship of Cicero and the
destruction of the Catilinian conspiracy, the office of Pontifex
Maximus (more a political than religious office) was held by C. Iulius
Caesar. Since all males, even male animals, were excluded from the
event, Caesar absented himself for the evening and the ceremony was
planned and hosted by his wife Pompeia.

Since Pompeia was not the most stable of women, her mother-in-law
Aurelia, Caesar's respected and noble mother, was actually in charge
of the details. She noticed one woman who was heavily cloaked, tall,
and with an affected tone in her voice. Aurelia prided herself on
knowing every guest present but she could not recall this individual.
She asked a servant girl to keep an eye on the unknown guest, who lost
control of her affected voice and was discovered to be in fact a man.
He escaped from the house without being definitively identified.

Rumors flew. No one in Rome doubted that the guilty man was Publius
Clodius Pulcher: it was not unlike him to play wild pranks -- even
with so sacred an event as the Bona Dea ceremony. One story suggested
that Clodius and Pompeia were having an affair and that she herself
had smuggled him into her house. This was a difficult accusation to
squelch. An impiety certainly had occurred and conservative Romans
were very upset. In response, Caesar divorced Pompeia, reputedly
justifying himself --- in a quote of unknown origins --- by asserting
that "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." There was no proof at
all, only gossip and suspicion, of Pompeia's involvement. But for
Caesar it may have been a useful way to get rid of a wife whom he had
married for political reasons that no longer mattered.

Clodius was actually brought to trial for the sacrilege in 61 B.C.
(693 A.U.C.). He offered an alibi defense, claiming that he had been
out of town on the night in question. Cicero spoke against him and
with his skillful oratory he demolished Clodius's alibi. Nevertheless,
the jury - thought to have been well bribed - voted to acquit
Clodius. Because of his prosecution, Cicero acquired a dangerous and
powerful enemy: three years later (in 58 B.C.) Clodius was chiefly
responsible for Cicero's exile from Rome.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Plutarch, Britannica Online, Wikipedia, www.pantheon.org,
www.womenshistory.about.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47949 From: cassius622@aol.com Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Collegium Pontificum Vote Results
Salvete Omnes,

The Collegium Pontificum has concluded a vote and I officially announce the
results as follows:

I. Flavius Vedius Germanicus has been approved for the position of
Quindecimvir Sacris Faciundis, and therefore will undertake the work of rebuilding of
the Sybylline Books.

II. Lucius Cassius Cornutus has been approved for the position of Sacerdos
Ianus, and will be undertaking the work of rebuilding the worship of Ianus in
Nova Roma.

III. The Collegium Pontificum has voted to remove the prior votes of the
RESPONSVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS and RESPONSVM DE COLLEGIO PONTIFICVM.
These two documents were placed in the Tabularium as voted items, and I therefore
officially request that they be removed from the Nova Roma website.

IV. The Collegium Pontificum has set a rule that a simple majority of
Pontifices must vote in order for an item to pass in any Collegium Pontificum vote.

I would ask my fellow Citizens to join me in welcoming Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Lucius Cassius Cornutus into their new positions, I am sure that
they will serve both the Gods and Nova Roma well!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47950 From: tacitus_pocillator Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Si vales, valeo:

Tolerance IS what we need. Both tolerance and understanding, each one needed in conjunction for reform. We are all priests shall I say as each pater familias or in any case mater familias performs the rites in the household of the private cultus. Then are we not all called by the gods to ensure there favor on all citizens? Is it not our duty to preserve the religio? Many factors are the cause of such discord, but one having been over-looked more so. The pressing issue is that of adaptation to the modern age. For a successful reformation, I believe we must merge with the age of antiquity with today and make reform by all accounts. Only then can we understand and tolerate.

Valete bene.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> "6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> > and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> > Republican Romans."
>
> Adding the words of excellent Hortensia, this giant of NR, I just
> would like to add Fustel de Coulanges´ "Ancient City" book. I´ve found
> in a downloadable format. It is a very good book, specially because it
> explain all greek-roman society organization based on the Religio, and
> better, the Private Religio.
>
> And also let´s not forget to read from the own Ancient Sources. No
> historian can subistitute the own emotion to read a Livius, Polybius,
> Tacitus, Salustius, Appian, Suetonius, Plutarch, et al. Also the
> greeks have much to say, Herodotus and Tucidides (although Polybius,
> Plutarch and Appian were greeks). And most important, much Historians
> ´don´t say´, we interpret them.
>
> Words like Metellus and Hortensia are a refreshment on this list. I
> really don´t like the tone some have here when discussing Religio on
> ML. I still fell the gap between the priesthoods and the magistratures
> is tearing NR appart, on its Middle Age conception of a saecular power
> of the magistrates and the holy and unfalible religious power that
> teaches the saecular power what to do and hovers mightly and
> untouchable. The power is derived from the gods, and the gods allows
> all other powers (specially the Comitia under the auspices of the
> state).
>
> Some people can deny this problem, it is their right. However, the
> disconfort we see about this subject is a proof of this ill feeling NR
> is going down on this matter. I confess I have not answers in
> definitive. It is too much arrogance someone can say "have" the
> answer.
>
> I can only pray the gods to give us not wiseness, but tolerance.
> Without tolerance with the differences, there is no discussion, there
> is no advance. I could read all word of latin and greek remaining from
> the Ancient - without knowing how to deal with modern and live people,
> nothing is worthy.
>
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Fautus
>
> 2006/12/2, Maior <rory12001@...>:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > M. Hortensia P. Caecilio Metello Fl. Galerio Quiritibusque spd;
> > my pardon for making an omnibus post but it is
> > sensible to discuss this issue as it is one issue:
> >
> > 1. The CP's reform according to the mos of the Middle Republic. I
> > reposted Cordus' researched post with his named scholarly sources.
> >
> > 2. Iulius Scaurus' post is just his opinion unless pertinent modern
> > scholarly sources are attached. Since he proposed the 54 day
> > unhistoric superstitio, he really must provide documentation from
> > top-class scholars. He has a university library at his disposal
> >
> > 3. Since along with Cordus, Saturninus, Faustus, Piscinus, Astur,
> > Metellus, Modianus and many other cives etc I wish to see the CP
> > reformed to its historic roots, this means keeping all collegia;
> > Fetiales, Arval Brotherhood etc. And all the dieties and feria in
> > the Republican calender
> >
> > 4. Flavi Galeri; please address me as Marca Hortensia or Hortensia
> > Maior, according to Republican usage. There is a fine scholarly
> > article "Choosing a Roman Name" in the NRwiki which discusses this
> > very subject. Read it & use it. As a magistrate you set the example
> >
> > 5. having studied French, Italian, Russian at University & German at
> > grad school last year, I assure you I have read every book & more on
> > Roman prosographia, nomenclature, history, law etc. I expect to help
> > teach Roman Law at the Academia Thules. Future pontiffs should be
> > multilingual.
> >
> > 6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> > and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> > Republican Romans.
> > bene valete in pacem deorum
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > >
> > > Salve, Colleague.
> > >
> > > You make a number of different points in your missive here, all of
> > which
> > > deserve inquisition to the fullest extent. So, being the
> > inquisitor I
> > > am, I would like to ask a number of questions about the points you
> > > raise. I will, of course, quote you directly as much as I am able.
> > >
> > > Scripsti:
> > >
> > > > In the entire
> > > > corpus of extant ancient sources there is not a single case of
> > the
> > > > Senate failing to accept and obey a decision of the Collegium
> > > > Pontificum -- not a response to a senatorial query, not a
> > decretum
> > > > independently generated by the Collegium was ever rejected or
> > defied
> > > > by the Senate or any magistrate.
> > >
> > > I am not in a position to deny you that the Senate and "civil"
> > > magistrates always followed the direction of the Collegium
> > Pontificum on
> > > sacred matters. I haven't the time to pour through every shred of
> > > extant ancient literature to adequately take up such a position,
> > at any
> > > rate. However, you seem to take the position that we need to
> > ensure
> > > that the Senate and the "civil" magistrates could not have the
> > ability
> > > to act contrary to the direction of the Collegium Pontificum. In
> > which
> > > case, I would like to know where, in the ancient sources, the fact
> > that
> > > these authorities lacked the ability to act contrary to the
> > direction of
> > > the Collegium Pontificum is explicitely stated.
> > >
> > > > Religious matters
> > > > are peripheral to Livy's main intrerest and usually arise in
> > Livy's
> > > > narrative because of a connection to the Senate or magistrates.
> > To
> > > > infer from this that all the Collegium Pontificum was was an
> > > > information service for the Senate and magistrates is
> > methodologically
> > > > incompetent. Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does
> > cite
> > > > instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent
> > action
> > > > and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action.
> > >
> > > About this last part, "instances in which the Collegium Pontificum
> > took
> > > independant action and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate
> > to
> > > take action", I would personally find it nothing short of helpful
> > if you
> > > could cite some specific examples.
> > >
> > > > Livy is replete with language indicating collective and collegial
> > > > decision-making by the Collegium whether independently or in
> > response
> > > > to Senatorial and magisterial enquiries: decretum pontificum,
> > decretum
> > > > collegii, visum pontificum, and so forth.
> > >
> > > As above, some specific examples would be helpful.
> > >
> > > > It is Cicero who drives the stake through the heart of this
> > fallacious
> > > > claim that the Collegium only acted by responsa of individual
> > > > pontifices.
> > >
> > > I would here too be very appreciative if you could point out to me
> > where
> > > the contention that responsa would be issued only by individual
> > > pontifices was stated within the proposals.
> > >
> > > > If all the Collegium Pontificum did was issue individual
> > responsa by
> > > > individual pontifices, then why were quora required at all? Why
> > > > should it take three pontifices (and from other sources it is
> > clear
> > > > that one of the three had to be the Pontifex Maximus or his
> > designate)
> > > > to definitively rule on carimoniae, the major ludi, the cults of
> > the
> > > > Penates and Vesta, and sacrifices for the safety of Rome if all
> > the
> > > > Collegium did was issue individual responsa? Furthermore, more
> > > > serious matters â€" the trial of a Vestal for unchastity or
> > incestum,
> > > > the trial of the validity of a consecration, etc. â€" required a
> > larger
> > > > number of pontifices still and their collective action. What
> > Cicero
> > > > presents is a case for the Collegium acting collectively and
> > > > collegially on matters of importance to the religio which is
> > starkly
> > > > contradictory to the proposed "reform."
> > >
> > > Again, if you could point out specifically where, in the
> > proposals, it
> > > is the case that responsa would only be issued by individual
> > pontifices,
> > > I would appreciate it. As it were, without delving too far into
> > > statements made in chambers, I recall it being specifically stated
> > that
> > > a responsum needed three pontifices to be issued as a responum
> > > pontificum; some support to your statement would be helpful.
> > >
> > > > The proposal also makes a great deal of the fact that it was the
> > > > Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum which dealt with the
> > > > suppression of the Bacchanalia.
> > >
> > > Could you show us where this was stated in the proposals?
> > >
> > > > I know of one Republican example of an augur being
> > > > disciplined by the Collegium Pontificum.
> > >
> > > Again, if you could point out the source of this example, and
> > elaborate
> > > upon it, I'm sure we would all find it helpful.
> > >
> > > > It is my recommendation that the "reform" proposal be dropped
> > until it
> > > > is in accord with the practices revealed by a competent command
> > of the
> > > > ancient sources.
> > >
> > > Following this, Scaure, would very easily be the statement that
> > the
> > > entire proposal of Nova Roma be abandoned "until it is in accord
> > with
> > > the practices revealed by a competent command of the ancient
> > sources."
> > > It may be far better for us to be careful where we tread here.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47951 From: Rick Sciarappa Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Collegium Pontificum Vote Results
Salve,

This is terrific news!
I thank the College of Pontiffs for the opportunity
and I look forward to the work ahead.
May Father Janus bless this beginning!

Vale optime in pace Deorum



Lucius Cassius Cornutus
Sacerdos Ianus


On Dec 3, 2006, at 8:04 PM, cassius622@... wrote:

>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The Collegium Pontificum has concluded a vote and I officially
> announce the
> results as follows:
>
> I. Flavius Vedius Germanicus has been approved for the position of
> Quindecimvir Sacris Faciundis, and therefore will undertake the work
> of rebuilding of
> the Sybylline Books.
>
> II. Lucius Cassius Cornutus has been approved for the position of
> Sacerdos
> Ianus, and will be undertaking the work of rebuilding the worship of
> Ianus in
> Nova Roma.
>
> III. The Collegium Pontificum has voted to remove the prior votes of
> the
> RESPONSVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS and RESPONSVM DE COLLEGIO
> PONTIFICVM.
> These two documents were placed in the Tabularium as voted items, and
> I therefore
> officially request that they be removed from the Nova Roma website.
>
> IV. The Collegium Pontificum has set a rule that a simple majority of
> Pontifices must vote in order for an item to pass in any Collegium
> Pontificum vote.
>
> I would ask my fellow Citizens to join me in welcoming Flavius Vedius
> Germanicus and Lucius Cassius Cornutus into their new positions, I am
> sure that
> they will serve both the Gods and Nova Roma well!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47952 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Collegium Pontificum Vote Results
M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
in response to the bad news below, I have no words. I am just
reposting A. Apollonius Cordus' post on this matter. And to thank
him and Gn. Salvius Astur for their efforts on behalf of the res
publica.


III. The Collegium Pontificum has voted to remove the prior votes
of the
> RESPONSVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS and RESPONSVM DE COLLEGIO
PONTIFICVM.
> These two documents were placed in the Tabularium as voted items,
and I therefore
> officially request that they be removed from the Nova Roma
website.

>
CORDUS' POST: As far as I'm concerned the proposal has been duly
adopted by the collegium pontificum and is therefore binding upon
its members.
The fact that its members do not seem to be taking any notice of it
is
disappointing but not, I'm sorry to say, surprising in light of the
absolutely
dismal record of that body to date. I never supported the idea of
having the
proposal ratified by the senate or the comitia or written into the
lex
constitutiva, so I don't care in the slightest whether those things
are done or
not. The full extent of my involvement in this matter is this: I was
asked by a
friend to help come up with a model of how our public religious
institutions
could be redesigned to be more like those of the old republic.
Having duly
explained that it was not my area of expertise, I read as much as I
could
reasonably lay my hands on and did my best with what I found. I
attempted to
explain the thinking behind the model when asked to do so. As far as
I'm
concerned, that is the end of my part. I am very satisfied to have
been one of
the very few people making a genuine effort to get something
positive done about
the unhistorical and dysfunctional arrangements currently existing.
If the
efforts of one lone pontifex, assisted by one amateur historian who
has never
claimed to specialize in Roman religion and does not even worship
the Roman gods
in his sacra privata, turn out to have failed, well, that will not
be very
surprising. But I hope it will, at least, prompt people to
ask, "why, when the
chronic dysfunction and historical inaccuracy of our public religious
institutions was obvious to everyone, was it left to these two
underqualified
individuals to do anything about solving it?"
*********************************************************************
*********************************************************************
*
> III. The Collegium Pontificum has voted to remove the prior votes
of the
> RESPONSVM DE QVATTVOR SVMMIS COLLEGIIS and RESPONSVM DE COLLEGIO
PONTIFICVM.
> These two documents were placed in the Tabularium as voted items,
and I therefore
> officially request that they be removed from the Nova Roma
website.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47953 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-03
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Q. Caecilius Metellus M. Hortensiae Maiori salutem.

Regardless of how I feel about C. Iulius' opinions and his post on the
material, you have very little room to criticise his lack of posting
scholarly backing the items until and unless you specifically ask him
for sources on specific items. Asking for an omnibus list of sources
will get you nowhere, and would, if he were so inclined (as I would not
be) to oblige you, him in the unfortunate position of having to
determine which sources to include and which to exclude, and how
detailed he should be in pointing out these sources, which could also
leave you lacking a response for quite a while (long enough, I am sure,
for someone to comment that he would have failed entirely to give a
response).

It is also quite an important thing for us to consider, as Flavius
Galerius is saying, the practicality of things. It is simply unuseful
to institute something that has no feasible usage. Reform without use
would be just as bad as the present situation, in my opinion.

Similarly, you are not, Marca Hortensia, in a position to speak to a
magistrate in the way you have. Since you wish to point to the article
in the Wiki, which seems to be scholastically sound, it may be to your
benefit to review the section to which you ostensibly refer. You will
note that it states, specifically:

"Use of one name is relatively relaxed and informal. If you already in
the middle of a conversation with someone, or in the middle of talking
about someone, you might well call him by just one name, especially if
you know him reasonably well."

Unless I have grossly missed something, in his last missive, Flavius
Galerius mentioned you first by your full name, then began to use your
cognomen alone; it had already become clear about whom he was talking --
all the formalities were met. As a magistrate yourself, Aedilis Plebis,
it may behoove you to ensure your own correctness before standing in to
correct another.

About your last point, which I must quote directly and in full, I have,
though, the most to say, albeit the most succinctly:

> 6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> Republican Romans.

As much as we in Nova Roma seem to want to depend on the work of John
Scheid, he is certainly not the only person to publish a scholastically
sound work on the sacra Romana and its institutions. The best way we
can learn to think like mid-Republican Romans (if indeed that is the
goal) is to read as many works as one is able on and about the era, with
as much of that being from primary sources, and to think and consider
the material independantly, putting together all the material to be
found therein, and making decisions based on the conclusions one
personally draws therefrom. The best way we can learn to act like
mid-Republican Romans is to make decisions based on the process above,
and make those decisions so much a common part of oneself that it is not
simply like, but actually is, second nature. This is the closest we can
hope to get to being a mid-Republican Roman. Of course, this is all my
opinion.

At any rate, I do not believe that you are in a position, Marca
Hortensia, to speak as you do, and I hope that in future you reconsider
how you choose to be seen by the People.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47954 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Regarding Reform of the Religio-Back at ya.
Back at ya.
M. Hortensia P. Caecilio Metello Fl. Galerio Quiritibusque spd;
my pardon for making an omnibus post but it is sensible to discuss this
issue as it is one issue:

1. The CP's reform according to the mos of the Middle Republic. I reposted
Cordus' researched post with his named scholarly sources.
FGA: No way. This does not represent the Middle Republic. It represents
portions of the Middle Republic, the Late Republic, and the beginning of the
Principate. If you would read my previous posts concerning the origin of the
Epulones you would have noticed who increased the number of Epulones.
3. Since along with Cordus, Saturninus, Faustus, Piscinus, Astur, Metellus,
Modianus and many other cives etc I wish to see the CP reformed to its
historic roots, this means keeping all collegia; Fetiales, Arval Brotherhood etc.
And all the dieties and feria in the Republican calender.
FGA: You are the only person who seems to feel that way because not a single
one of the other persons you mention in Point 3. have commented this way
since I posted. I just spent the entire weekend with Metellus and he had
nothing to say about any of my recent comments concerning dissolving the Fetiales
or the Arval Brethren. Also, the CP has not in the last two years approved
all the feriae and fasti in the old Republican calendar as part of the Sacra
Publica. Furthermore, if we are going back to the historic roots, we would
have to exclude many of the festivals and quite a few Gods, plus find sources
that would show us the proper rites to Falacer, Portunalis, Fons, Palatina, et
cetera. Many of the current festivals listed in Fowler and Scullard are
strictly in the realm of the Sacra Privata.

4. Flavi Galeri; please address me as Marca Hortensia or Hortensia Maior,
according to Republican usage. There is a fine scholarly article "Choosing a
Roman Name" in the NRwiki which discusses this very subject. Read it & use it.
As a magistrate you set the example
FGA: If we were using Old Republican usage, domina, then I would not be
addressing you directly. I would be discussing this with your husband or
paterfamilias. However, this is Nova Roma. I suggest that you consider the name
when talking about slavishly following practices which no longer have any
useful purpose to NOVA Roma.
5. having studied French, Italian, Russian at University & German at grad
school last year, I assure you I have read every book & more on Roman
prosographia, nomenclature, history, law etc. I expect to help teach Roman Law at the
Academia Thules. Future pontiffs should be multilingual.
FGA: I hope your professors had better luck getting direct answers to
direct questions from you than many of the citizens on this list do. I am
wondering whether you minored in confusgation. Also, current pontiffs, flamen, and
citizens should obtain a working knowledge of Latin. Other languages would
likely follow.

6. All of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion" and put
it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-Republican Romans.
FGA: Reading Scheid would no more contribute to a person thinking like a
mid-Republican Roman than living in a garage would make someone think like a
car. It is psychologically and ethically unlikely that a modern person could
learn to think & act like mid-Republican Romans.
Ercule! Dii Immortales should have mercy on Nova Roma.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47955 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
M. Hortensia Q. Caecilio Metello spd;

METELLUS:> It is also quite an important thing for us to consider,
as Flavius
> Galerius is saying, the practicality of things. It is simply
unuseful
> to institute something that has no feasible usage. Reform without
use
> would be just as bad as the present situation, in my opinion.

Cordus'Post: De Iure Pontificio:
"The proposal would not exactly remove "the current pontifical
authority to make and adjudicate sacral law". It would remove the
power of the collegium pontificum to make what are effectively super-
leges on whatever subject they consider "relevant" to religio
Romana. Secondly, the removal of formal legislative initative from
the collegia.
Currently the collegia can make these super-leges whenever they
want to. If the collegium pontificum has the bright
idea of criminalizing free expression, it can do it. "
>

METELLUS:> Unless I have grossly missed something,

MAIOR: you did, Fl. Galeriuse called me 'domina'. Dominus
means 'master, lord' Domina is the female version. Those are very
unrepublican terms!
As for the Wiki article -the entire Nomenclature section is due
to the great efforts of the Onomalis group: brilliant Latinist
Avitus, Scholastica 1st class Latinist, Cordus with wonderful
scholarship & references & lastly, me, the grateful dogsbody who
lugged the reference books from the library. I learned so much from
them all. There is a lot of quiet hard work for the benefit of all
the cives.
>
> of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> > and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> > Republican Romans.
>
METELLUS:. The best way we
> can learn to think like mid-Republican Romans (if indeed that is
the
> goal) is to read as many works as one is able on and about the
era, with > as much of that being from primary sources, and to think
and consider
> the material independantly, > At any rate, I do not believe that
you are in a position, Marca
> Hortensia, to speak as you do, and I hope that in future you
reconsider
> how you choose to be seen by the People.
>
MAIOR: I suggest John Scheid's text because it is easy to get, in
English, cheap, short & comprehensive. I'm not interested in 4 cives
with esoteric knowledge. I want as many people to read & find out
for themselves.
I hope the people do see me as I am;
someone who wants to share knowledge so everyone can then form his
or her independent opinions.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47956 From: Nabarz Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Abstracts:An academic and religious journal of Greek, Roman and Per
Hello,

For your interest we have included below the `Abstracts' from:
Mithras Readers: an academic and religious journal of Greek, Roman
and Persian Studies. Vol.1 as well as the table of content.

Regards,
Nabarz


Table of Content:
-------------------------------------------------------
Section I: Academic papers

Continuity and Change in the Cult of Mithra, by Dr. Israel Campos
Méndez, University of Las Palmas.
Mithra and the warrior group
Mithra and the Iranian words and images

Introduction to Classes of Manichean, Mithrâism and Sufiyeh, by Dr.
Saloome Rostampoor, Islamic Azad University – Islam shahr unite,
Iran.

Entheos ho syros, polymathçs ho phoinix: Neoplatonist approaches to
religious practice in Iamblichus and Porphyry, by Sergio Knipe,
Kings College, Cambridge.

Mithraism and Alchemy by David Livingstone author of "The Dying God:
The Hidden History of Western Civilization."

-----------------------------------------------------
Section 2: Arts

`For example Mithras' exhibition by Farangis Yegane, artist,
painter, and illustrator of the `Cat and Mice story'.

White steer with line of red light leading to the archaeological
museum
Cautes and Cautopates at the fire-altar
Center part of blue triptych with bleeding steer
Mithraeum and ritual of initiation
Controversial grey triptych depicting the crucified Christ and the
bleeding sacrificed white steer
Stair with different ranks
Sketch of white steer

----------------------------------------------------
Section 3: Religious articles

Meeting Mithra by Guya Vichi, founder of Solar Centre and author
of "Wood, the Stone, the Fire" and "Thousand Doors of the Rainbow".
Ode To Mithra by Guya Vichi

Hymn to the Sun by Katherine Sutherland, Poet.

Mithras Liturgy with the Orphic hymns, by Payam Nabarz author
of "The Mysteries of Mithras The Pagan Belief That Shaped the
Christian World" and "The Persian 'Mar Nameh': The Zoroastrian 'Book
of the Snake' Omens and Calendar".

News & Reviews
Books, Films, Games.
Details:
Paperback: 104 pages
Publisher: Twin Serpents Ltd. (November 16, 2006)
Language: English
ISBN: 1905524099

Available from www.innerbookshop.co.uk or Amazon.

US URL:
http://www.amazon.com/Mithras-Reader-academic-religious-
Studies/dp/1905524099/
UK URL:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mithras-Reader-Academic-Religious-
Studies/dp/1905524099/


Abstracts:

Section I: Academic papers

CONTINUITY AND CHANGE IN THE CULT OF MITHRA
by Dr. Israel Campos Méndez
University of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria.
Canary Island, Spain
Abstract
After the rejection that Cumont's hypothesis received, the continuity
between the god Mithra
worshipped among the Persians and the god that presided over the
Mithraic mysteries, there
have been few attempts to seek the connection between both religious
traditions. We offer
with this article an approach focused on this relationship, referring
to special elements that do
not offer doubt on their clear western origin and that they played an
evident role in the daily
Mysteric practice. Starting from there, we pose the question: to what
extent were the own
Roman followers conscious of the Mithra's connections with the
Iranian framework?

Introduction to Classes of Manichean, Mithrāism and Sufiyeh
by Dr. Saloome Rostampoor, Islamic Azad University – Islam shahr
unite, Iran
From ancient Iran, there were groups and religions with special
customs and traditions.
These religions classified their followers into different special
groups which had their
own rules and according to these rules they aimed to train people to
reach what was
known as perfection. The customs and traditions existing in these
groups are very
important since besides the fact they introduced these religions in
aiming to understand
them and their influences on Iran in the context in which they
existed enables us to gain
a greater understanding of the country, its people and their beliefs.
Three important and influential religions in Iran are Manichean,
Mithrāism and
Sufism, which influenced Iranian society in their own period through
their special
customs and ceremonies. Though these groups were viewed as different
in the time that
they appeared, there are considerable similarities in their
classifications. This article
aims to investigate these classifications in the three religions
mentioned in a short and
simple way.

Entheos ho syros, polymathēs ho phoinix:
Neoplatonist approaches to religious practice in Iamblichus and
Porphyry
by Sergio Knipe, Kings College, Cambridge
Some honour philosophy more highly, as do Porphyry, Plotinus and many
other
philosophers; others honour more highly the priestly art, as do
Iamblichus, Syrianus, Proclus
and all the theurgists (hoi hieratikoi pantes).1
The aim of this article is to offer an overview of approaches to
religious practice in the
writings of the third-century philosophers Porphyry and Iamblichus,
with particular emphasis
on two key texts: On Abstinence from Killing Animals and On the
Mysteries of Egypt. Both
philosophers showed a profound interest in religious matters; both
followed Plotinus as the
most eminent representatives of the chief philosophical movement of
late antiquity.2 The
opening quote from Damascius conveys the sense in which Neoplatonism
evolved from
Porphyry to Iamblichus and his followers (hoi hieratikoi pantes). As
most neatly drawn
historical lines, it runs the risk of oversimplifying matters.
Sensing the problem when citing
the same passage in her book, Anne Sheppard made sure to frame
Damascius' remarks with a
series of caveats warning the reader against any overestimation of
the increased importance
of ritual in later Neoplatonism.3 No doubt, not all successors of
Porphyry were equally keen
to put on priestly robes.4 Yet, despite Eusebius, few would question
that Damascius'
distinction does in fact reflect a historical shift within
Neoplatonism. Central to this issue is
an understanding of the different place each philosopher assigned to
ritual practice and
theurgy in relation to religious self-realisation. Theurgy, in
particular, was assigned markedly
different roles: while Iamblichus regarded it as the very foundation
of his religious doctrine,
Porphyry criticised a number of its features and made it serve a more
limited purpose in the
path to spiritual development.5 The following discussion aims to shed
light on these diverging
approaches to religious practice, and to corroborate Damascius' claim.

MITHRAISM AND ALCHEMY
by David Livingstone author of "The Dying God: The Hidden History of
Western
Civilization"
This article forms part of the research included in a work I have
completed,
entitled "The Dying God: The Hidden History of Western Civilization".
For
more information or to order my book, readers may visit my website at:
http://www.thedyinggod.com
The alchemical process, according to Zosimus of Panopolis, the
foremost of the Hellenistic
alchemists, and who lived at the end of the third and beginning of
the fourth century A.D., "is
the Mithraic Mystery, the incommunicable Mystery." However,
alchemical teachings could
have no known association with Persian Zoroastrianism. Therefore,
what does this quote tell
us about the nature of Mithraism, and its connection to alchemy?
Although it contradicts the opinions of modern scholarship, Mithraism
in Roman times was
a cult regarded as preserving the wisdom of the "Magi", having been
founded originally by
Zoroaster, as early as before the Trojan War. This opinion was to
some extent promoted by
Franz Cumont, who basically single-handedly founded the study of
Mithraism, though today
scholars of the subject have essentially rejected his thesis. As
scholars maintain, there is very
little evidence to maintain that Mithraism derived from Persian
Zoroastrianism, but this was
not the basis of Cumont's theory.


Section 2: Arts

`For example Mithras ' exhibition by Farangis Yegane
Photos and article here are produced her by kind persmission of
Farangis Yegane. For further
information and to see the exhibition in full colour see website:
http://www.farangis.de/mithras/
The second part of exhibition is due end of 2006.
FOR EXAMPLE MITHRAS
In dying and bleeding to death ritual transformation sets on: new
life thrives from death. In
unbounded chains of expectancies for deliverance, humanity proceeds
in harrowing spans.
The victim's death in religious rites such as in the mystery of the
Mithras cult (where the steer
is being ritually killed) as well as in the rites of the Abrahamic
religions Judaism, Christianity
and Islam, stands as a blood-sacrifice for expectancies of salvation.
In many blood-sacrifice
rituals the pretence is demonstrated that the "sacrificer" (the
slaughterer) is guiltless. Mostly
it's the priests of the specific religion, who, as agents of divine
decree, carry out the
slaughtering.. But also any one of the believers that are devout and
obedient to God
themselves can slaughter the animal sacrifice and perform the sacred
rituals. Intentional
killing through the hand of man – natural dying, is there not a
mistaken confusion? When we
recite for example the text from the Bible: "Verily, verily, I say
unto you. Except a corn of
wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die,
it bringeth forth much fruit."
(Jhn 12:24) aren't there two different forms of dying and two
different forms of coming


Section 3: Religious articles

ODE TO MITHRA BY GUYA VICHI
Oh Mithra, lord of the Light and of the infinite strength,
wake up, don't sleep the sleep of the just and of the Gods,
the raven has flown and after 500 years your faithful warriors are
waking up and, on behalf of
you, they are organizing armies of initiates.
In you great men and warriors reposed their lives, on behalf of you
they built altars and made
vows, but never they shed blood or violence.
You that are the light that enlightens every thing,
remove the darkness brought by fears and by unawareness,
let every living creature get a beneficial ray of yours, so that they
may feel you are a friend
and a supporter in the adversities of life.
Let every adversity be an incentive for your warriors,
to show you the courage and the faith they have reposed in your
heart....

HYMN TO THE SUN BY KATHERINE SUTHERLAND
Hail to you, mighty king of the sky,
ray-bearer, light-bringer from on high.
Your beams bring life upon the earth,
heralding dawn and each day's birth.
In the East you wake, the light of dawn,
spark of the day from night reborn,
constellations flee before your path,
summon us now to the morning hearth,
of heat which wakens the growing things,
people and animals, the birds that sing,
and stir your rays through the leaves of green,
where chlorophyll rises towards the unseen,
magnetism of your powerful crown,
in joy at the heat that is beating down,
upon and around us, to nurture all life,
and thaw the cold places, frozen in strife....


MITHRAS LITURGY WITH THE ORPHIC HYMNS. BY PAYAM NABARZ
The Mithras Liturgy from the Greek magical papyri (350 C.E.) is a
text written to be used by
a solo magician or sometimes by two magicians. Toward the end of the
supplementary
section of the rite its reads: `But if you want to consult the oracle
by using a fellow initiate, so
that he hears only the things spoken together with you, let him be
pure with you for seven
days and abstain from meat etc. Â…' 1 what follows here is to adopt
this rite for modern use
into a format that can be used by large groups. The ritual dynamic of
two people performing a
ceremony to that of twenty or more is radically different. This
version created here has been
used by a group of twenty people before and can be used for a group
of a hundred plus too.
The below group ceremony is to mark the Autumn Equinox (Mehergan). It
is an adaptation
of Mithras Liturgy (in translation from the Greek magical papyri),
with Hymn Lines from
Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome, Mithra festival of Persian Mehergan
celebrations, the
Mystical Hymns of Orpheus (in translation from Greek, as used in the
Eleusian Mysteries),
and some creative writing and reworking on my part.
The orphic hymns are used here as they fit well with the Platonic
based Mithraic
cosmology and are very moving hymns. We know Mithraists used the
planetary symbols, but
due to lack of sources we don't what they said during their religious
rites. The Orphic hymns
are not included due to their historical use by Mithraists, but as a
good pragmatic substitute
for the lack of material. Indeed, other appropriate planetary hymns
could also be used in their
place.
This stellar ceremony involves number of deities: Pales (mother
earth), Mercury, Venus,
Mars, Jupiter, Moon, Sun, Saturn, Mithras. This a rite of a magical
ascent from Earth through
the seven gates, that is each of the mentioned planetary spheres and
deities, and then to stellar
constellations of the Pleiades, theGreat Bear and their associated
deities, and finally to
Mithras, the Kosmokrater (mover of cosmos).
The Pleiades deities being seven goddesses: the Fates/virgins, or
seven Egyptian Hathors
(the Cow goddess) as shown here by asps. Great Bear deities being
seven gods: black bulls,
Pole Lords of heaven. These seven male and seven female deities face
each other forming a
kind of astral choir and corridor for the last part of ascent leading
to the highest gate.


News & Reviews

Books
-Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, And the Gospel of Mark by Michael
Patella
-The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire: Mysteries of
the Unconquered Sun by Roger Beck
-The Mysteries of Mithras: The Pagan Belief That Shaped the Christian
World by Payam Nabarz
-Mithras Liturgy: Text, Translation, & Commentary (Studies & Texts in
Antiquity & Christianity, 18) by Hans Dieter Betz
-The Archaeology of Religious Hatred in the Roman and Early Medieval
World
Eberhard Sauer
-The Persian `Mar Nameh': The Zoroastrian `Book of the Snake' Omens
and Calendar and The Old Iranian Calendar by Payam Nabarz, S. H.
Taqizadeh
-Mehrparasti-dar iran, hend va rom by Saloome Rostampoor
-Mehr o Atash by Mehrdad Avesta, Compiler: Behrooz Imani.
-Threskia: Tradition of the Greek Mysteries by Evangelos Rigakis
-Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature
(Religions in the Graeco-Roman World S.) by Albert F. de Jong.

-Films Rome – The Complete First Series.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47957 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Meditations on Coulanges
This text is provided only for educational and cultural purposes. All
copyrights are from their owners. When making a citation, we advise to
put the full reference.

COULANGES, N. D. F; The Ancient City: A Study on the Religion, Laws,
and Institutions of Greece and Rome; Paris, [s.n], 1873. (this
reference is according ABNT norm)

Book First: Ancient Beliefs.
Chapter I: Notions about the Soul and Death

Down to the latest times in the history of Greece and Rome we find the
common people clinging to thoughts and usages which certainly dated
from a very distant past, and which enable us to discover what notions
man entertained at first regarding his own nature, his soul, and the
mystery of death.
Go back far as we may in the history of the Indo-European race, of
which the Greeks and Italians are branches, and we do not find that
this race has ever thought that after this short life all was finished
for man. The most ancient generations, long before there were
philosophers, believed in a second existence after the present. They
looked upon death not as a dissolution of our being, but simply as a
change of life. But in what place, and in what manner, was this
second existence passed? Did they believe that the immortal spirit,
once escaped from a body, went to animate another?

No; the doctrine of metempsychosis was never able to take root in the
minds of the Greco-Italians; nor was it the most ancient belief of the
Aryas of the East; since the hymns of the Vedas teach another
doctrine. Did they believe that the spirit ascended towards the sky,
towards the region of lights Not at all; the thought that departed
souls entered a celestial home is relatively recent in the West; we
find it expressed for the first time by the poet Phocylides. The
celestial abode was never regarded as anything more than the
recompense of a few great men, and of the benefactors ofmankind.
According to the oldest belief of the Italians and Greeks, the soul
did not go into a foreign world to pass its They even believed for a
very long time that, in this second existence, the soul remained
associated with the body; born together, they were not separated by
death, and were buried together in the grave.

Old as this belief is, authentic evidences of it still remain to us.
These evidences are the rites of sepulture, which have long survived
this primitive belief, but which certainly began with it, and which
enable us to understand it. The rites of sepulture show clearly that
when a body was buried, those ancient peoples believed that they
buried something that was living. Virgil, who always describes
religious ceremonies with so much care and precision, concludes the
account of the funeral of Polydorus in these words: "We enclose the
soul in the grave." The same expression is found in Ovid, and in Pliny
the Younger; this did not correspond to the ideas which these writers
had of the soul, but from time immemorial it had been perpetuated in
the language, attesting an ancient and common belief.2 It was a
custom, at the close of a funeral ceremony, to call the soul of the
deceased three times by the name he had borne. They wished that he
might live happy under ground. Three times they said to him, Fare thee
well. They added, May the earth rest lightly upon thee.3 Thus firmly
did they believe that the person would continue to live under ground,
and that he would still preserve a sense of enjoyment and suffering.
They wrote upon the tomb that the man rested there — an expression
which survived this belief, and which has come down through so many
centuries to our time. We still employ it, though surely no one to-day
thinks that an immortal being rests in a tomb.

But in those ancient days they believed so firmly that a man lived
there that they never failed to bury with him the objects of which
they supposed he had need — clothing, utensils, and arms. They poured
wine upon his tomb to quench his thirst, and placed food there to
satisfy his hunger. They slaughtered horses and slaves with the idea
that these beings, buried with the dead, would serve him in the tomb,
as they had done during his life. After the taking of Troy, the Greeks
are about to return to their country; each takes with him his
beautiful captive; but Achilles, who is underthe earth, claims his
captive also, and they give him Polyxena.4

A verse of Pindar has preserved to us a curious vestige of the
thoughts of those ancient generations. Phrixus had been compelled to
quit Greece. and had fled as far as Colchis. He had died in that
country; but, dead though he was, he wished to return to Greece. He
appeared, therefore, to Pelias, and directed him to go to Colchis and
bring away his soul. Doubtless this soul regretted the soil of its
native country, and the tomb of its family; but being attached to its
corporeal remains, it could not quit Colchis without them.5 From this
primitive belief came the necessity of burial. In order that the soul
might be confined to this subterranean abode, which was suited to its
second life, it was necessary that the body to which it remained
attached should he covered with earth. The soul that had no tomb had
no dwelling-place. It was a wandering spirit. In vain it sought the
repose which it would naturally desire after the agitations and labor
of this life; it must wander forever under the form of a larva, or
phantom, without ever stopping, without ever receiving the offerings
and the food which it had need of. Unfortunately, it soon became a
malevolent spirit; it tormented the living; it brought diseases upon
them, ravaged their harvests, and frightened them by gloomy
apparitions, to warn them to give sepulture to its body and to itself.
From this came the belief in ghosts. All antiquity was persuaded that
without burial the soul was miserable, and that by burial it became
forever happy. It was not to display their grief that they performed
the funeral ceremony, it was for the rest and happiness of the dead.6
We must remark, however, that to place the body in the ground was not
enough. Certain traditional rites had also to be observed, and certain
established formulas to be pro pounced. We find in Plautus an account
of a ghost;7 it was a soul that was compelled to wander because its
body had been placed in the ground without due attention to the rites.
Suetonius relates that when the body of Caligula was placed in the
earth without a due observation of the funeral ceremonies, his soul
was not at rest, and continued to appear to the living until it was
determined to disinter the body and give it a burial according to the
rules. These two examples show clearly what effects were attributed to
the rites and formulas of the funeral ceremony. Since without them
souls continued to wander and appear to the living, it must have been
by them that souls became fixed and enclosed in their tombs; and just
as there were formulas which had this virtue, there were others which
had a contrary virtue — that of evoking souls, and making them come
out for a time from the sepulchre. We can see in ancient writers how
man was tormented by the fear that after his death the rites would not
be observed for him. It was a source of constant inquietude. Men
feared death less than the privation of burial; for rest and eternal
happiness were at stake. We ought not to be too much surprised at
seeing the Athenians put generals to death, who, after a naval
victory, had neglected to bury the dead. These generals, disciples of
philosophers, distinguished clearly between the soul and the body, and
as they did not believe that the fate of the one was connected with
the fate of the other, it appeared to them of very little consequence
whether a body was decomposed in the earth or in the water. Therefore
they did not brave the tempest for the vain formality of collecting
and burying their dead. But the multitude, who, even at Athens, still
clung to the ancient doctrines, accused these generals of impiety, and
had them put to death. By their victory they had saved Athens; but by
their impiety they had lost thousands of souls. The relatives of the
dead, thinking of the long-suffering which these souls must bear, came
to the tribunal clothed in mourning, and asked for vengeance. In the
ancient cities the law condemned those guilty of great crimes to a
terrible punishment — the privation of burial. In this manner they
punished the soul itself, and inflicted upon it a punishment almost
eternal. We must observe that there was among the ancients another
opinion concerning the abode of the dead. They pictured to themselves
a region, also subterranean, but infinitely more vast than the tomb,
where all souls, far from their bodies, lived together, and where
rewards and punishments were distributed according to the lives men
had led in this world. But the rites of burial, such as we have
described them, manifestly disagree with this belief — a certain proof
that, at the epoch when these rites were established, men did not yet
believe in Tartarus and the Elysian Fields. The earliest opinion of
these ancient generations was, that man lived in the tomb, that the
soul did not leave the body, and that it remained fixed to that
portion of ground where the bones lay buried. Besides, man had no
account to render of his past life. Once placed in the tomb, he had
neither rewards nor punishments to expect. This is a very crude
opinion surely, but it is the beginning of the notion of a future
life.

The being who lived under ground was not sufficiently free from human
frailties to have no need of food; and, therefore, on certain days of
the year, a meal was carried to every tomb. Ovid and Virgil have given
us a description of this ceremony. The observance continued unchanged
even to their time, although religious beliefs had already undergone
great changes. According to these writers, the tomb was surrounded
with large wreaths of grasses and flowers, and cakes, fruits, and
flowers were placed upon it; milk, wine, and sometimes even the blood
of a victim were added.8

We should greatly deceive ourselves if we thought that these funeral
repasts were nothing more than a sort of commemoration. The food that
the family brought was really for the dead — exclusively for him. What
proves this is, that the milk and wine were poured out upon the earth
of the tomb; that the earth was hollowed out so that the solid food
might reach the dead; that if they sacrificed a victim, all its flesh
was burnt, so that none of the living could have any part of it; that
they pronounced certain consecrated formulas to invite the dead to eat
and drink; that if the entire family were present at the meal, no one
touched the food; that, in fine, when they went away, they took great
care to leave a little milk and a few cakes in vases; and that it was
considered gross impiety for any living person to touch this scant
provision destined for the needs of the dead.9

These usages are attested in the most formal manner. "I pour upon the
earth of thetomb," says Iphigenia in Euripides, "milk, honey, and
wine; for it is with these that we rejoice the dead."10 Among the
Greeks there was in front of every tomb a placedestined for the
immolation of the victim and the cooking of its flesh.11 The Roman
tomb also had its culina, a species of kitchen, of a particular kind,
and entirely for the use of the dead.12 Plutarch relates that after
the battle of Plataea, the slain having been buried upon the field of
battle, the Plataeans engaged to offer them the funeral repast every
year. Consequently, on each anniversary, they went in grand
procession, conducted by their first magistrates to the mound under
which the dead lay. They offered the departed milk, wine, oil, and
perfumes, and sacrificed a victim. When the provisions had been placed
upon the tomb, the Plataeans pronounced a formula by which they called
the dead to come and partake of this repast. This ceremony was still
performed in the time of Plutarch, who was enabled to witness the six
hundredth anniversary of it.13 A little later, Lucian, ridiculing
these opinions and usages, shows how deeply rooted they were in the
common mind. "The dead," says he, "are nourished by the provisions
which we place upon their tomb, and drink the wine which we pour out
there; so that one of the dead to whom nothing is offered is condemned
to perpetual hunger.14 These are very old forms of belief, and are
quite groundless and ridiculous; and yet they exercised empire over
man during a great number of generations. They governed men's minds;
we shall soon see that they governed societies even, and that the
greater part of the domestic and social institutions of the ancients
was derived from this source.

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47958 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: prid. Non. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est pridie Nonas Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"The consuls were the first to be sent, little more than half-clothed,
under the yoke, then each in the order of his rank was exposed to the
same disgrace, and finally, the legionaries one after another. Around
them stood the enemy fully armed, reviling and jeering at them; swords
were pointed at most of them, and when they offended their victors by
showing their indignation and resentment too plainly some were wounded
and even killed. Thus were they marched under the yoke. But what was
still harder to bear was that after they had emerged from the pass
under the eyes of the foe though, like men dragged up from the jaws of
hell, they seemed to behold the light for the first time, the very
light itself, serving only to reveal such a hideous sight as they
marched along, was more gloomy than any shape of death. They could
have reached Capua before nightfall, but not knowing how their allies
would receive them, and kept back by a feeling of shame, they all
flung themselves, destitute of everything, on the sides of the road
near Capua. As soon as news of this reached the place, a proper
feeling of compassion for their allies got the better of the inborn
disdain of the Campanian; they immediately sent to the consuls their
own insignia of office, the fasces and the lictors, and the soldiers
they generously supplied with arms, horses, clothes, and provisions.
As they entered Capua the senate and people came out in a body to meet
them, showed them all due hospitality, and paid them all the
consideration to which as individuals and as members of an allied
state they were entitled. But all the courtesies and kindly looks and
cheerful greetings of their allies were powerless to evoke a single
word or even to make them lift up their eyes and look in the face the
friends who were trying to comfort them. To such an extent did
feelings of shame make their gloom and despondency all the heavier,
and constrain them to shun the converse and society of men. The next
day some young nobles were commissioned to escort them to the
frontier. On their return they were summoned to the Senate-house, and
in answer to inquiries on the part of the older senators they reported
that they seemed to be much more gloomy and depressed than the day
before; the column moved along so silently that they might have been
dumb; the Roman mettle was cowed; they had lost their spirit with
their arms; they saluted no man, nor did they return any man's
salutation; not a single man had the power to open his mouth for fear
of what was coming; their necks were bowed as if they were still
beneath the yoke. The Samnites had won not only a glorious victory but
a lasting one; they had not only captured Rome as the Gauls had done
before them, but, what was a still more warlike exploit, they had
captured the Roman courage and hardihood." - Livy, History of Rome 9.6



"Zeus had intercourse with Metis, who turned into many shapes in order
to avoid his embraces. When she was with child, Zeus, taking time by
the forelock, swallowed her, because Earth said that, after giving
birth to the maiden who was then in her womb, Metis would bear a son
who should be the lord of heaven. From fear of that Zeus swallowed
her. And when the time came for the birth to take place, Prometheus
or, as others say, Hephaestus, smote the head of Zeus with an axe, and
Athena, fully armed, leaped up from the top of his head at the river
Triton." - Apollodorus, Library and Epitome 1.3.6

"Truly, a cloud of forgetfulness sometimes descends unexpectedly, and
draws the straight path of action away from the mind. For they climbed
the hill without bringing the seed of burning flame; and they
established the sacred precinct on the acropolis with fireless
sacrifices. Zeus brought to them a yellow cloud and rained on them
abundant gold. And the gray-eyed goddess herself bestowed on them
every art, so that they surpassed all mortal men as the best workers
with their hands; and the roads bore works of art like living, moving
creatures, and their fame was profound. For a wise craftsman, even
superior skill is free from guile." - Pindar, Odes ("Olympian" 7.45)

"They celebrate a yearly festival of Athena, where their maidens are
separated into two bands and fight each other with stones and sticks,
thus (they say) honoring in the way of their ancestors that native
goddess whom we call Athena. Maidens who die of their wounds are
called false virgins. Before the girls are set fighting, the whole
people choose the fairest maid, and arm her with a Corinthian helmet
and Greek panoply, to be then mounted on a chariot and drawn all along
the lake shore. With what armor they equipped their maidens before
Greeks came to live near them, I cannot say; but I suppose the armor
was Egyptian; for I maintain that the Greeks took their shield and
helmet from Egypt. As for Athena, they say that she was daughter of
Poseidon and the Tritonian lake, and that, being for some reason angry
at her father, she gave herself to Zeus, who made her his own
daughter. Such is their tale. The intercourse of men and women there
is promiscuous; they do not cohabit but have intercourse like cattle.
When a woman's child is well grown, the men assemble within three
months and the child is adjudged to be that man's whom it is most
like." - Herodotus, The Histories CLXXX.2-6

Today is sacred to Minerva, the goddess of wisdom, war, the arts,
industry, justice and skill, known to the Greeks as Athena.

An oracle foretold to Zeus, the king of the gods, that if his wife
Metis bore another child it would be a boy who would depose him. He
promptly swallowed Metis, but was later smitten by terrible pains in
his head - Metis had begun making her daughter's armor while inside
Iuppiter's head. Mercury, the messenger of the gods, suspected the
cause, and persuaded Vulcan, the god of fire, to split his head open.
Immediately Minerva leapt out, fully grown and in full armour. She
became his favourite child, and he gave her his shield, the aegis,
which bore the image of the gorgon Medusa, and the thunderbolt. She
is the virgin mother of Erichthnonius.

Minerva and Neptune were very fond of a certain city in Greece. Both
of them claimed the city, it was decided that the one that could give
the finest gift should have it. Neptune struck the side of the cliff
with his trident and a spring welled up. The people marveled, but the
water was as salty as Neptune's sea and it was not very useful.
Minerva's gift was an olive tree, which was better because it gave the
people food, oil and wood. Minerva (as the Greek Athena) named her
city Athens.

Minerva's companion is the goddess of victory, Nike, and her usual
attribute is the owl. Sacred to her are the olive, serpent, owl,
lance, and crow. As Minerva Medica, she is the goddess of medicine
and doctors.

In 207 B.C., a guild of poets and actors was formed to meet and make
votive offerings at the temple of Minerva on the Aventine hill. Among
others, its members included Livius Andronicus. The Aventine sanctuary
of Minerva continued to be an important center of the arts for much of
the middle Roman Republic. With Iuppiter and Iuno, she forms the
great Capitoline Triad of gods.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Wikipedia, www.pantheon.org
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47959 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Regarding Reform of the Religio
Flavius Galerius Aurelianus M. Hortensia Maior sal.

"Domina" can also have the meaning of "lady" but if you feel you are not a lady, then I will neither imply you are a lady nor will I treat you as such.

As far as people seeing what you are, puella, I am fairly certain that (with the possible exception of Consul-Elect Faustus) most of this list has already formed a fairly strong opinion of exactly what your are. It is a good thing that you laid up some leeway for yourself with the podcast and your previous time as Tribune because you still enjoy some support in spite of your actions. You should be aware that such coin of past repute is rapidly being spent and you may soon find your purse as empty as an old wine sack.

In the last two days, Cordus and Metellus have both either repudiated some of your comments, admonished you for content, or stated they do not like having words put in their mouths. If these two individuals and others you say feel as you do, why have they not leapt to your defense? I have my own opinion and I am quite sure it is being shared by others.

Vale.



M. Hortensia Q. Caecilio Metello spd;

METELLUS:> It is also quite an important thing for us to consider,
as Flavius
> Galerius is saying, the practicality of things. It is simply
unuseful
> to institute something that has no feasible usage. Reform without
use
> would be just as bad as the present situation, in my opinion.

Cordus'Post: De Iure Pontificio:
"The proposal would not exactly remove "the current pontifical
authority to make and adjudicate sacral law". It would remove the
power of the collegium pontificum to make what are effectively super-
leges on whatever subject they consider "relevant" to religio
Romana. Secondly, the removal of formal legislative initative from
the collegia.
Currently the collegia can make these super-leges whenever they
want to. If the collegium pontificum has the bright
idea of criminalizing free expression, it can do it. "
>

METELLUS:> Unless I have grossly missed something,

MAIOR: you did, Fl. Galeriuse called me 'domina'. Dominus
means 'master, lord' Domina is the female version. Those are very
unrepublican terms!
As for the Wiki article -the entire Nomenclature section is due
to the great efforts of the Onomalis group: brilliant Latinist
Avitus, Scholastica 1st class Latinist, Cordus with wonderful
scholarship & references & lastly, me, the grateful dogsbody who
lugged the reference books from the library. I learned so much from
them all. There is a lot of quiet hard work for the benefit of all
the cives.
>
> of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> > and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> > Republican Romans.
>
METELLUS:. The best way we
> can learn to think like mid-Republican Romans (if indeed that is
the
> goal) is to read as many works as one is able on and about the
era, with > as much of that being from primary sources, and to think
and consider
> the material independantly, > At any rate, I do not believe that
you are in a position, Marca
> Hortensia, to speak as you do, and I hope that in future you
reconsider
> how you choose to be seen by the People.
>
MAIOR: I suggest John Scheid's text because it is easy to get, in
English, cheap, short & comprehensive. I'm not interested in 4 cives
with esoteric knowledge. I want as many people to read & find out
for themselves.
I hope the people do see me as I am;
someone who wants to share knowledge so everyone can then form his
or her independent opinions.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47960 From: marcushoratius Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Salvete Pontifex Scaure et omnes

At times, Pontifex, it seems rather odd to me what you attempt to
pose as historical arguments. If it were, as you say in the matter
of Cicero's house, that the Collegium Pontificum was the sole
authority to preside over such matters, why did Cicero go to the
Senate first? If the Collegium Pontificum had sole authity over such
matters why then did the final decision have to be argued out in the
Senate? And what exactly does this example offer us if not that the
Collegium Pontificum submitted a responsum to the Senate in reply to
an inquiry?

In reply to Pontifex Metellus you said, "Furthermore, it is belied by
Livy himself who does cite instances in which the Collegium
Pontificum took independent action and in which the Collegium
compelled the Senate to take action." Then as examples you offer us
Livy 4, 44, 11-12; 8, 15, 7; 34, 44, 1-2. Your first example
concerns Vestal Postimia who was brought before the CP for her
elegant dress and her free demeanor. She was acquitted and simply
told to refrain from such behaivor in the future. Where was the
Senate at all involved in this? The second example again concerns
pontifical administration of a Vestal Minucia when her dress "was
more elegant than proper." How does the trial of a Vestal have
anything to do with "compelling the Senate to take action"? Your
third example I will return to in a moment, but first I wish to
address something that you said earlier. You wrote:

"we need a great deal more research focusing precisely on the
relationships between the various collegia before we attempt to
finally define them in NR law, and research which uses the full
context of the relevant ancient sources informed by the best modern
scholarship."

The best of modern scholarship. From Mary Beard and Michaeal
Crawford, "Rome in the Late Republic," citing the letters of Cicero
as their sources, "On the one hand the magistrates had important
religious functions; but beyond these, the Senate provided the
principle link between men and Gods and controlled men's behavior
towards the Gods. Priests provided specialist advice in religious
matters – but they lacked authoritative power in that area."
Elsewhere, in "The Religions of Rome," Mary Beard and her colleagues
again argued that it was the Senate, not any one of the collegia,
that held authority over the religio Romana, its collegial
institutions and its priests. We can, however, take this one step
further, for in reality it was the Comitia that held ultimate
authority over any religious issues. First, according to Gaius in
the Institutiones, "Nothing can become sacrum except by the authority
of the Roman people, which can result through either the passage of a
law or through a decree of the Senate." That is, no temple could be
consecrated by the pontifices to the Gods without the expressed
decision of a Comitia. And C. Aelius Gallus, in De Significatione
Verborum Quae ad Ius Civile Pertinent, said, "Among things that are
held to be sacrum, sanctum, or religiosum, however there are the most
subtle differencesÂ… If what specifically makes temples sacrum is
present, then the same can be said of laws and institutions put
forward by the ancestors as sanctum, in order that they cannot be
violated without punishment." What gave laws passed before a comitia
ultimate religious authority in Rome was the belief that the Gods
Themselves, the ultimate source of all religious authority, expressed
Their will through the People. An assembly of the People into
comitia was performed in a ritual manner, in a religious context, in
order to ensure that the Gods delivered a vox populi, vox Deorum. On
that basis then a comitia could dedicate land for sacred purposes,
which no body of priest could do. A comitia could hear the appeal of
any sacerdos against a disciplinary decision of the pontifices. A
comitia could and did introduce reforms to the religious institutions
of Roma antiqua, as when a comitia passed the lex Ogulnia in 300 BCE
mandating that the collegia of augures and pontifices be opened to
plebeians and set the number of plebians to patricians in those
collegia, just as earlier a lex Licinia-Sextia had opened the
collegium of duoviri to plebians and set its membership to have five
plebeians and five patricians. A comitia could, and did, also
institute the practice of electing pontifices when the collegium did
not comply with its religious laws. In short, comitia had
administrative authority over the Quattor Summa Collegia, and was the
ultimate authority in Roma antiqua over any religious question.

Another modern scholar, John Scheid, stated that the religio
Romana "was a religion under no particular authority or leader, even
at the level of public cult. Religious authority was always shared
(An Introduction to Roman Religion, 2.1.1: Definitions)." This
shared authority was through the priestly collegia that were
independent of one another. They each had their own roles and
functions. There was a kind of order in status within each collegia
and between one another, but this dignity of office did not extend as
administrative authority between the various collegia. The Senate
could refer any matter to whichever collegium they chose. This is
precisely the case in the matter over Cicero's house, the Senate
referred a question to the CP and it in turn offered its opinion on
the question in the form of a responsum. In Roma antiqua the
pontifex maximus was not a pope, and Collegium Pontificum did not sit
as a Curia of Cardinals in judgement of every religious matter. The
Collegium Pontificum had administrate authority over the Vestales and
Flamines maiores, but not over all sacerdotes. The pontifices and
augures both oversaw sacra publica, each in different aspects of the
caeremonia. Sacerdotes administered sacra at their respective
temples in accordance with leges templi and when improprieties were
performed it fell upon the temple aediles or on the Praetores to take
action. The pontifices did not oversee all aspects of the religio
Romana. The Senate was the only body that could advise where action
had to be taken, and who among magistrates and sacerdotes had to take
action. It was for this reason that the Senate had authority to
determine between the various collegia and sodalitates as to which a
question like that posed by Cicero was to be addressed.

Now let us look at your third example, Livy 34.44.1-3. PM Licinus
Crassus "announced to the collegium, and then to the Senate, that the
ver sacrum performed the previous year under M Porcius Cato and L.
Valerius, were not properly performed and had to be conducted again
under the direction of the pontifices." Clearly this was a religious
matter. It does not presuppose, however, that the Collegium could
rule solely on its own authority, but instead that the Senate had to
be informed of the question and of the responsum of the Collegium to
that question, because, ultimately, any decision to act on the
opinion of the Collegium lay with the Senate rather than with the
Collegium itself. The Collegium Pontificum did not have authority in
Roma antiqua to issue decreta instituting new laws. They were not a
legislative body even when it came to religious law. They were
limited to offering only opinions of an interpretative nature on
religious law that was either traditional or promulgated through the
comitia. Those opinions were issued as responsa. The entire reason
why PM Licinius had to take this matter to the Senate is because of
the manner in which the ver sacrum was earlier declared by the
highest religious authority in Roma antiqua, the People assembled in
Comitia.

Livy 22.10, on the vow for the ver sacrum wrote: "After these
resolutions by the Senate, the praetor consulted the Collegium
(Pontificum). Lucius Cornelius Lentulus, the pontifex maximus, gave
his opinion that first of all the comitia should be consulted on the
question of the ver sacrum, for it could not be vowed against the
wishes of the People." The same was true in proposing the dedication
of any temple and its lex templi, which became sacred law. Only a
comitia had authority to declare something sacred, and in doing so
its decision itself became sacred and inviolable. The Collegium
Pontificum could not, on its own authority, declare a new form of
sacrifice like the ver sacrum or a period of prayer and sacrifice.
Livy offers examples of where the Senate could declare periods of
traditional Roman sacrifice, but only a Comitia could sanction some
introduction as represented by the ver sacrum. What does Livy tell
us? The Praetor consulted with the pontifex maximus, who replied
with a responsum of his own, not a collegial responsum. Later then
another pontifex maximus, after twenty plus years from the original
vow, informed the Senate that a sacred vow, approved by a comitia,
had not been conducted properly. Such could be taken as an offense
against the Gods, and a violation of a decision made by the People
assembled in Comitia. But there is no way to justify posing this
example as one of the Collegium Pontificum itself *compelling* the
Senate to take action. The PM informed, advised the Senate that an
error had been committed and it was up to the Senate then to address
the matter.

With regard to the relationship between the Senate and Collegium
Pontificum, or between the Senate and any of the other Quattor Summa
Collegia, firstly, referring a question to the Collegium for advice
still implies that the ultimate decision lay with the Senate, not
with the Collegium. It supposes that the Senate had the authority
to either accept or reject the response of the pontifices. You make
mention of the Senate deferring to opinions of the Collegium. This
is consistent with Mary Beard's scholarship. "Priests provided
specialist advice in religious matters – but they lacked
authoritative power in that area." The Senate could likewise seek
the advice on civil law from specialists in civil law, but no where
would it be taken that deference to the opinions of legal experts
implied that they, rather than the Senate, held administrative
authority over the institutions of the law. Most telling, in the
opinion of Mary Beard and her colleagues, the Senate selected the
collegium to which any question on the religio was to be referred.
The Collegium Pontificum was only one of several advisory boards on
the religio. Never was it the sole arbitrator over all religious
questions. Whatever advice the Senate received, from whomever
provided it, it was still for the Senate to decide what action should
be taken.

Your argument that the Senate *always* deferred to the opinion of the
Collegium Pontificum is one based on a lack of evidence. You
correctly ask that we consider the intentions of Livy when reading
what he has to say. I do not agree, however, with your assessment
that matters of the religio are "periperal" to his story or
intentions. He goes through lengths to explain past religious
practices, as with the fetiales. He recorded portents in some
detail, the dedication of temples, the introduction of festivals,
recorded the ascension of priests to various offices, and had a
general theme throughout his history decrying the decline of
religious scruple. With this latter point, he countered it by
showing where religious scruples were followed and how Rome thereby
benefited. In general Livy's work can be summed up by his own
words, "You discover that all events turn out well when we follow the
Gods in obedience, and ill when we spurn Them (Livy 5.51.5-6)."
Rather than being peripheral, the religio Romana is central to Livy's
work. Thus, the examples that he provides are those where deference
was given to religious considerations. It may well be that such
examples as found in Livy, Valerius Maximus, and with a few others,
are presented precisely because they represent the exception rather
than the norm. To counter-balance such examples Livy also gives
examples of where magistrates ignored relgious scruples, neglecting
rituals or tossing the sacred chickens overboard, only to have their
campaigns end in disaster. Only after the fact was it then presumed
that defeat came through neglecting the Gods. It could well have
been, however, that such disregard was more than normal than not. If
you place Livy's examples in the entire context of his work,
bemoaning the decline of religious scruple, this is the entire point
he was making that in his day the exception, rather than rule of the
day, was to defer to the precepts of the religio Romana. In the
Collegium Pontificum of Nova Roma I see that you have also made this
point that we should refrain from making sweeping assessments as you
did earlier, because the simple fact is that there is not enough
evidence either way to say what was the norm, but surely the Senate
did not *always* defer to the opinion of the pontifices.

As for some of your other comments, Pontifex Scaure, as directly
relate to the proposals introduced by Pontifex Astur, it is quite
obvious that you did not read the proposals themselves. As one
example, Pontifex Astur did provide for a quorum in the CP, one based
on the very same passages from Cicero that you have used, and one
that is more historical than the measure just passed by the CP. In
many of the other details of the proposals as well, Pontifex Astur
instilled an historical example for Nova Roma to follow. I do not
agree with, or appreciate, your implication that your colleague has
an incompetent command of ancient sources, especially as you have yet
to demonstrate your own capacity to present a reasoned argument based
on ancient sources. I also do not agree with your recommendation
that we drop all discussion of reforming our religious institutions
into a more historical model than is currently provided for in Nova
Roma. Certainly members of the Collegium Pontificum may disagree over
what the ancient sources suggest to us, but these are no more than
disagreements over interpretation. One thing is certainly clear from
the ancient sources. If the Pontifices can not come to some
agreement among themselves on what to offer as an opinion on how Nova
Roma might better follow the example of Roma antiqua, then a day
could come when a Comitia reasserts its traditional authority over
the matter and arrives at its own decision. It is not in the best
interest of the religio Romana for the Pontifices to shirk their
responsibilities any longer.

Valete et vadete in pace Deorum
M Moravius Piscinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47961 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Personal Attacks (Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding Reform of the Relig
Salve,

I see a campaign of difamation against Hortensia Maior on this list. I
know her long ago. Our friendship was born due to the strictly
adherence to roman way.
I have seen her being prosecuted and make her an scape-goat for some
dubious abuse of power-testing, single-handed declared ludicrously
´nefas´, I defended her when I was Tribune using my Sainctatis that
time. I gained some enemies, but for that the gods protects the
Tribunes.

However, I understand this is just "argumentum ad hominem". Due to her
argumentation, some tries to harass them. Unfortunately, there is in
NR an old strategy, to offend someone into death, until the people
give up NR. I myself am becoming victim of some these days, due to my
election to the consulship. This tactics were sucessful employed by
Caesar´s partisans, to harass his colleague on consulship, throwing
even s.. on him. What we see here, quirites, is a worst kind of s...,
that doesn´t taint the clothes, but poisons the soul.

And worst, break the bridges for undestanding each other.

Indeed, she is a person of strong ideas, but she has nerve and
integrity. Not only Faustus supports her. Lots of consulares and
ex-magistrates supports her as well. Ok, some people could not like
her in the Tribunate, although I understand she has the nerve of the
great tribunes of the past, so I invite her accusers to candidate
themselves. I invite them to do a half of what she does by NR. Alas,
the cista is a very loud way to express yourselves, oh accusers.

The best politics is ignoring such attacks. Like Themistokles said
once to Euribates, his opponent, during one of his speeches:

(...)
And when Eurybiades raised his staff as if he would strike him,
Themistokles said, "Strike, but hear me." (Plutarch, life of
Themistocles)
(...)

To Hortensia, I only can adress the fortitude that cames only by Gods
blessing. As the example of Themistokles, don´t interrupt your ideals
by gargabe some throw on you. May they strike. Strike as fiercely as
they can. Strike, when arguments cease, only the brute force remains.
Recall the campaing of Coriolanus for the consulship was not based on
speeches, but on the scars he received on the service for the
Republic. May the stones they throw on you, the foundation to buld
your glory.

I myself won´t even answer anyone that prefers to accuse me than the
show disagreement of my ideas.

NR has much "wise men", but few men capable to actually talk to each
other. Could I have read all historians available, without capacity
to talk, to share, to respect the other, everything becomes silly.
Not ridiculous, just silly. Knowledge that doesn´t bring agreement is
just seed of arrogance, hubrys that the gods loathes...

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Senator, ex-tribune, ex-praetor,
Designated Consul for 2007

2006/12/4, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus M. Hortensia Maior sal.
>
> "Domina" can also have the meaning of "lady" but if you feel you are not a lady, then I will neither imply you are a lady nor will I treat you as such.
>
> As far as people seeing what you are, puella, I am fairly certain that (with the possible exception of Consul-Elect Faustus) most of this list has already formed a fairly strong opinion of exactly what your are. It is a good thing that you laid up some leeway for yourself with the podcast and your previous time as Tribune because you still enjoy some support in spite of your actions. You should be aware that such coin of past repute is rapidly being spent and you may soon find your purse as empty as an old wine sack.
>
> In the last two days, Cordus and Metellus have both either repudiated some of your comments, admonished you for content, or stated they do not like having words put in their mouths. If these two individuals and others you say feel as you do, why have they not leapt to your defense? I have my own opinion and I am quite sure it is being shared by others.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> M. Hortensia Q. Caecilio Metello spd;
>
> METELLUS:> It is also quite an important thing for us to consider,
> as Flavius
> > Galerius is saying, the practicality of things. It is simply
> unuseful
> > to institute something that has no feasible usage. Reform without
> use
> > would be just as bad as the present situation, in my opinion.
>
> Cordus'Post: De Iure Pontificio:
> "The proposal would not exactly remove "the current pontifical
> authority to make and adjudicate sacral law". It would remove the
> power of the collegium pontificum to make what are effectively super-
> leges on whatever subject they consider "relevant" to religio
> Romana. Secondly, the removal of formal legislative initative from
> the collegia.
> Currently the collegia can make these super-leges whenever they
> want to. If the collegium pontificum has the bright
> idea of criminalizing free expression, it can do it. "
> >
>
> METELLUS:> Unless I have grossly missed something,
>
> MAIOR: you did, Fl. Galeriuse called me 'domina'. Dominus
> means 'master, lord' Domina is the female version. Those are very
> unrepublican terms!
> As for the Wiki article -the entire Nomenclature section is due
> to the great efforts of the Onomalis group: brilliant Latinist
> Avitus, Scholastica 1st class Latinist, Cordus with wonderful
> scholarship & references & lastly, me, the grateful dogsbody who
> lugged the reference books from the library. I learned so much from
> them all. There is a lot of quiet hard work for the benefit of all
> the cives.
> >
> > of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
> > > and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
> > > Republican Romans.
> >
> METELLUS:. The best way we
> > can learn to think like mid-Republican Romans (if indeed that is
> the
> > goal) is to read as many works as one is able on and about the
> era, with > as much of that being from primary sources, and to think
> and consider
> > the material independantly, > At any rate, I do not believe that
> you are in a position, Marca
> > Hortensia, to speak as you do, and I hope that in future you
> reconsider
> > how you choose to be seen by the People.
> >
> MAIOR: I suggest John Scheid's text because it is easy to get, in
> English, cheap, short & comprehensive. I'm not interested in 4 cives
> with esoteric knowledge. I want as many people to read & find out
> for themselves.
> I hope the people do see me as I am;
> someone who wants to share knowledge so everyone can then form his
> or her independent opinions.
> bene vale
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>



--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47962 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Provincia Austrorientalis event report.
I send greetings and felicitations to the quirities of America
Austrorientalis and Nova Roma at large. I regret that more of you
were unable to join us this past weekend but I wanted to give you a
brief description of our activities and to encourage you to join us
at future events.

We had nine citizens at cena on Saturday night at Fusco's Via Romana
Trattoria and made the acquaintance of Appius Galerius Aurelianus,
the NR Praefectus Regio Georgia (& Alabama). Guests included:
Violentilla Galeria Saltarix, Mania Galeria Corvina, Helena Galeria
Aureliana, Caecelius Metellus Pontifex, Antonia Semrponia, Lucia
Galeria Mira, her husband Skylorix, Appius, and myself. I offered
an invocation to Dii Immortales with wine and a prayer for the
health of the Galerii before dinner. The food and wine were
excellent and I discovered it is possible to eat gnocchi di
Bolognese without getting it on your toga virilis. After a lovely
dinner served by Ursula (whom we recruited for Nova Roma), we
returned to the mansio where we had drank, talked, and perused the
books and clothing that had been brought to show off. Shortly after
midnight, we all retired.

Yesterday, we rose and broke our fast at the mansio followed by a
brief visit to a local macellum (Wal-something) for the ladies to
purchase cloth & other goods to make more tunics and stolae.

By noon, we arrived at the Fernbank Museum of Natural History for
the Roman exhibit. Here we were joined by C. Maria Caeca who could
not make dinner. We introduced ourselves to the optio and a
detachment of milites from the Legio XI Claudia Pia Fidelis and the
lanista of the Ludus Gladiatorum Australis. I met again with Marius
the Myrmillo, who had taken out the Wolf of Britain in a match at
the Charioteer Event, in Nashville, in the Fall of 2758.

The exhibit was quite impressive, featuring many artifacts that have
never been seen here in America Sept. There were full size
reproductions of a Roman dining room & the front of a taverna. The
full range of domestic and social life--coins, sculpture, mosaics,
altars, funery items, pottery, bronze lamps, medical instruments,
modes, religious items--were represented in the artifacts including
three recently discovered carved heads of Augustus, Titus, and a
Julio-Claudian woman. I recommend this exhibit to anyone and it
will be at the Fernbank through January. The gift store pickings
are slim but there is a book for the exhibit that is worth the price.

At 2 p.m., we all went out to the amphitheatre to watch the munera.
A lady name Claudia was officiating on behalf of her husband who was
running for duumvir. He sponsored the munera in the memory of a
deceased consul, but who cares about an old dead man when one can
enjoy free games & see gladiators fight.

There were only four matches--myrmillo vs. hoplomachus; myrmillo vs.
thraex; velite vs. velite; and secutor vs. retarius. The Galilean
velite, Hercules, lost both his javelins before he took three wounds
from his opponent and finally fell to a thrust to the chest.
Ercule! It was a bad day for me as I did not pick a single winner
and lost over 200 h.s. However, the rest of the fighting was good
and it was a real surprise to see the retarius take out the secutor
with a gut thrust after he lost his net.

We completed the exhibit and stopped for dinner on the way out of
town. An excellent weekend and I will be looking to meet more
provincial citizens at the Pompeii Reborn exhibit and Castra Romana
in Mobile, AL, the first weekend in February. I encourage all
citizens of Austrorientalis to subscribe to the provincial weblist

austrorientalis@yahoogroups.com

and for the February event at:

pompeiireborn@yahoogroups.com

Vadite in pace Cereris.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47963 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Personal Attacks--A response to Faustus et al from Flavius Galerius
Aurelianus Fausto sal.

I emailed you privately about this matter, Consul-Elect, and gave
you some information that I thought you would find useful. However,
I will publicly deny that it is my intention to defame M. Hortensia
Maior and I refute without malice any accusation that I am
attempting to drive her out of Nova Roma. She has done useful and
commendable service for Nova Roma and continues to do so with her
podcast.

I would like to state, for the public record, my opinions and
reasons why I am currently at loggerheads with Marca Hortensia
Maior. First, I have noted that she is intolerant of other persons'
opinions and makes remarks that can be viewed as hostile.
Second, she makes statements based on her opinion and appears to
expect it to be accepted as a fact. Should anyone disagree with her
opinion, she responds with generalities & disdain but fails to
consistently support her opinions with specific evidence and
sources.
Third, she recently encouraged a Tribunal intercessio against a
decretum that was still under discussion and had not been issued by
the CP. This is a violation of the intercessio according to the by-
laws of Nova Roma. She threatened a pontifex with charges of
treason based on his proposed decretum and the aforesaid illegal
intercessio. She incited the Plebeians to violate the sacrosanctity
of the office of any Tribune who did not support the aforesaid
illegal intercessio. This last is, in my opinion, the most
significant error since the Plebeians are oathbound to protect the
sancrosanctity of the Tribunes and she advocated collective oath
breaking.
Four, (this is actually a gripe) no one is able to get straight
answers from her to specific questions despite repeated attempts in
asking that she do so.
Five, she continues to evoke the names of other citizens who she
says support her views and opinions but, apart from you, none of
these individuals are jumping to her defense when I raise questions
about her statements. In fact, two of those individuals have
recently made statements on this list that appear to repudiate and
admonish her for the content of her messages.
Six, she has announced her candidacy for Tribune when it is clear
that she no longer demonstrates an understanding of the duties and
responsibilities of that most important office of the Plebeian Ordo
and, subsequently, of all Nova Roma.

Now, I am just a simple country Plebeian but I do not believe that
Marca Hortensia Maior is doing good service to herself by her recent
actions. Furthermore, should she run unopposed for the Tribune's
seat and be elected, it would not necessarily mean she enjoyed the
confidence of the Plebs or most of the active membership of Nova
Roma. I would be happy to announce my candidacy for the fifth
Tribune's office but I have given my oath not to run for office for
the rest of 2759.

I will continue to respond to any post that Marca Hortensia Maior
puts on this list that I hold to be untrue or I am opposed to
because that is MY right. I do not do it out of malice or spite or
in an effort to drive her out of Nova Roma. I do it because I feel
it is the right thing to do and I will always attempt to do so
courteously, with some humor, and the occasional bon mot.

Valete.

"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@...> wrote:

I see a campaign of difamation against Hortensia Maior on this list.
I know her long ago. Our friendship was born due to the strictly
adherence to roman way. I have seen her being prosecuted and make
her an scape-goat for some dubious abuse of power-testing, single-
handed declared ludicrously ´nefas´, I defended her when I was
Tribune using my Sainctatis that time. I gained some enemies, but
for that the gods protects the Tribunes.

However, I understand this is just "argumentum ad hominem". Due to
her argumentation, some tries to harass them. Unfortunately, there
is in NR an old strategy, to offend someone into death, until the
people give up NR. I myself am becoming victim of some these days,
due to my election to the consulship. This tactics were sucessful
employed by Caesar´s partisans, to harass his colleague on
consulship, throwing even s.. on him. What we see here, quirites, is
a worst kind of s..., that doesn´t taint the clothes, but poisons
the soul.

And worst, break the bridges for undestanding each other.

Indeed, she is a person of strong ideas, but she has nerve and
integrity. Not only Faustus supports her. Lots of consulares and
ex-magistrates supports her as well. Ok, some people could not like
her in the Tribunate, although I understand she has the nerve of the
great tribunes of the past, so I invite her accusers to candidate
themselves. I invite them to do a half of what she does by NR. Alas,
the cista is a very loud way to express yourselves, oh accusers.

. . .

To Hortensia, I only can adress the fortitude that cames only by
Gods blessing. As the example of Themistokles, don´t interrupt your
ideals by gargabe some throw on you. May they strike. Strike as
fiercely as they can. Strike, when arguments cease, only the brute
force remains.

I myself won´t even answer anyone that prefers to accuse me than the
show disagreement of my ideas.

NR has much "wise men", but few men capable to actually talk to each
other. Could I have read all historians available, without capacity
to talk, to share, to respect the other, everything becomes silly.
Not ridiculous, just silly. Knowledge that doesn´t bring agreement is
just seed of arrogance, hubrys that the gods loathes...

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Senator, ex-tribune, ex-praetor,
Designated Consul for 2007

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>:

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus M. Hortensia Maior sal.

"Domina" can also have the meaning of "lady" but if you feel you are
not a lady, then I will neither imply you are a lady nor will I
treat you as such.

As far as people seeing what you are, puella, I am fairly certain
that (with the possible exception of Consul-Elect Faustus) most of
this list has already formed a fairly strong opinion of exactly what
your are. It is a good thing that you laid up some leeway for
yourself with the podcast and your previous time as Tribune because
you still enjoy some support in spite of your actions. You should be
aware that such coin of past repute is rapidly being spent and you
may soon find your purse as empty as an old wine sack.

In the last two days, Cordus and Metellus have both either
repudiated some of your comments, admonished you for content, or
stated they do not like having words put in their mouths. If these
two individuals and others you say feel as you do, why have they not
leapt to your defense? I have my own opinion and I am quite sure it
is being shared by others.

Vale.

M. Hortensia Q. Caecilio Metello spd;

METELLUS:> It is also quite an important thing for us to consider,
as Flavius Galerius is saying, the practicality of things. It is
simply unuseful to institute something that has no feasible usage.
Reform without use would be just as bad as the present situation, in
my opinion.

Cordus'Post: De Iure Pontificio:
"The proposal would not exactly remove "the current pontifical
authority to make and adjudicate sacral law". It would remove the
power of the collegium pontificum to make what are effectively super-
leges on whatever subject they consider "relevant" to religio
Romana. Secondly, the removal of formal legislative initative from
the collegia.

Currently the collegia can make these super-leges whenever they
want to. If the collegium pontificum has the bright idea of
criminalizing free expression, it can do it. "

METELLUS:> Unless I have grossly missed something,

MAIOR: you did, Fl. Galeriuse [sic] called me 'domina'. Dominus
means 'master, lord' Domina is the female version. Those are very
unrepublican terms! As for the Wiki article -the entire Nomenclature
section is due to the great efforts of the Onomalis group: brilliant
Latinist Avitus, Scholastica 1st class Latinist, Cordus with
wonderful scholarship & references & lastly, me, the grateful
dogsbody who lugged the reference books from the library. I learned
so much from them all. There is a lot of quiet hard work for the
benefit of all the cives.

of us should read Scheid's "Introduction to Roman Religion"
and put it into practice. We can learn to think & act like mid-
Republican Romans.

METELLUS: The best way we can learn to think like mid-Republican
Romans (if indeed that is the goal) is to read as many works as one
is able on and about the era, with as much of that being from
primary sources, and to think and consider the material
independantly, At any rate, I do not believe that you are in a
position, Marca Hortensia, to speak as you do, and I hope that in
future you reconsider how you choose to be seen by the People.

MAIOR: I suggest John Scheid's text because it is easy to get, in
English, cheap, short & comprehensive. I'm not interested in 4 cives
with esoteric knowledge. I want as many people to read & find out
for themselves.
I hope the people do see me as I am;
someone who wants to share knowledge so everyone can then form his
or her independent opinions.

bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior

> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" -
Salustius
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47964 From: Shoshana Hathaway Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Provincial Event Report
Salvete Omnes,

Let me add just a few personal notes to this excellent report. First of
all, the NR citizens I met are absolutely delightful, and grand fun! (I was
told, by the Pontifex Maximus (I think) that I have a warped sense of humor,
which is perfectly true, (wink) and now I have that on the highest
authority, LOL! Our good Governor is, BTW, the soul of courtesy and
patience, especially considering that I got him lost 2? 3? times, but I
trust he got home OK, after dropping me off (thank you) at my home. The
exhibit was truly impressive, and nicely presented, too. And the final note
...I *almost* inadvertently, became part of the gladiatorial entertainment a
couple of times, because I nearly ended up with a few fighters in my lap!
That didn't happen, and I didn't have to scramble or throw myself out of
harm's way, which is probably a good thing for everyone, and we had a
glorious time. As much fun as the mailing lists can be, events are even
more fun, and while geography does present some problems for gathering, it's
wonderful when we can, as many of us who can.

Valete Bene,
C. Maria Caeca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47965 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Personal Attacks--A response to Faustus et al from Flavius Gale
M.Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
>
> "To Hortensia, I only can adress the fortitude that cames only by
> Gods blessing. As the example of Themistokles, don´t interrupt your
> ideals by gargabe some throw on you. May they strike. Strike as
> fiercely as they can. Strike, when arguments cease, only the brute
> force remains."
Faustus speaks wise words.
Maior
>
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47966 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Piscino SPD.

>At times, Pontifex, it seems rather odd to me what you attempt to
>pose as historical arguments. If it were, as you say in the matter
>of Cicero's house, that the Collegium Pontificum was the sole
>authority to preside over such matters, why did Cicero go to the
>Senate first? If the Collegium Pontificum had sole authity over such
>matters why then did the final decision have to be argued out in the
>Senate? And what exactly does this example offer us if not that the
>Collegium Pontificum submitted a responsum to the Senate in reply to
>an inquiry?

It is clear to me that you simply do not have sufficient command of
the material in Cicero to understand the sequence of events around
restoration of Cicero's home. Cicero went to the Senate to demand
return of his property. The redeeding of that property back to Cicero
was a matter of civil law and therefore in the Senate's jurisdiction.
However, the Senate found that the consecration of a shrine to
Libertas raised a question of sacral law which it was not competent to
adjudicate and which had to be adjudicated by the Collegium
Pontificum. There were, thus, two separate legal questions: (1) was
the consecration valid (because, if it were, then the Senate was
powerless to return the property to Cicero) and (2) if the
consecration were invalid, was there legal basis for returning
Cicero's house. The first question was referred to the Collegium
Pontificum because it fell within the Collegium's jurisdiction. It
was oinly after that question was resolved that the Senate could
address the second. There is nothing in _De domo sua_, _De haruspicum
responsis_, or Cicero's letters which supports any other construal.

>In reply to Pontifex Metellus you said, "Furthermore, it is belied by
>Livy himself who does cite instances in which the Collegium
>Pontificum took independent action and in which the Collegium
>compelled the Senate to take action." Then as examples you offer us
>Livy 4, 44, 11-12; 8, 15, 7; 34, 44, 1-2. Your first example
>concerns Vestal Postimia who was brought before the CP for her
>elegant dress and her free demeanor. She was acquitted and simply
>told to refrain from such behaivor in the future. Where was the
>Senate at all involved in this? The second example again concerns
>pontifical administration of a Vestal Minucia when her dress "was
>more elegant than proper." How does the trial of a Vestal have
>anything to do with "compelling the Senate to take action"? Your
>third example I will return to in a moment, but first I wish to
>address something that you said earlier. You wrote:

The first two were entirely independent actions of the Collegium and
were taken without reference to any initiated by the Senate which is
precisely an instance of what I was referring to.

>"we need a great deal more research focusing precisely on the
>relationships between the various collegia before we attempt to
>finally define them in NR law, and research which uses the full
>context of the relevant ancient sources informed by the best modern
>scholarship."
>
>The best of modern scholarship. From Mary Beard and Michaeal
>Crawford, "Rome in the Late Republic," citing the letters of Cicero
>as their sources, "On the one hand the magistrates had important
>religious functions; but beyond these, the Senate provided the
>principle link between men and Gods and controlled men's behavior
>towards the Gods. Priests provided specialist advice in religious
>matters – but they lacked authoritative power in that area."
>Elsewhere, in "The Religions of Rome," Mary Beard and her colleagues
>again argued that it was the Senate, not any one of the collegia,
>that held authority over the religio Romana, its collegial
>institutions and its priests. We can, however, take this one step
>further, for in reality it was the Comitia that held ultimate
>authority over any religious issues. First, according to Gaius in
>the Institutiones, "Nothing can become sacrum except by the authority
>of the Roman people, which can result through either the passage of a
>law or through a decree of the Senate." That is, no temple could be
>consecrated by the pontifices to the Gods without the expressed
>decision of a Comitia. And C. Aelius Gallus, in De Significatione
>Verborum Quae ad Ius Civile Pertinent, said, "Among things that are
>held to be sacrum, sanctum, or religiosum, however there are the most
>subtle differences… If what specifically makes temples sacrum is
>present, then the same can be said of laws and institutions put
>forward by the ancestors as sanctum, in order that they cannot be
>violated without punishment." What gave laws passed before a comitia
>ultimate religious authority in Rome was the belief that the Gods
>Themselves, the ultimate source of all religious authority, expressed
>Their will through the People. An assembly of the People into
>comitia was performed in a ritual manner, in a religious context, in
>order to ensure that the Gods delivered a vox populi, vox Deorum. On
>that basis then a comitia could dedicate land for sacred purposes,
>which no body of priest could do. A comitia could hear the appeal of
>any sacerdos against a disciplinary decision of the pontifices. A
>comitia could and did introduce reforms to the religious institutions
>of Roma antiqua, as when a comitia passed the lex Ogulnia in 300 BCE
>mandating that the collegia of augures and pontifices be opened to
>plebeians and set the number of plebians to patricians in those
>collegia, just as earlier a lex Licinia-Sextia had opened the
>collegium of duoviri to plebians and set its membership to have five
>plebeians and five patricians. A comitia could, and did, also
>institute the practice of electing pontifices when the collegium did
>not comply with its religious laws. In short, comitia had
>administrative authority over the Quattor Summa Collegia, and was the
>ultimate authority in Roma antiqua over any religious question.

You have now shifted the centre of control of the Religio from the
Senate -- which is where the proposal lodged it -- to the Comitia.
This is a bait-and-switch argument.

>Another modern scholar, John Scheid, stated that the religio
>Romana "was a religion under no particular authority or leader, even
>at the level of public cult. Religious authority was always shared
>(An Introduction to Roman Religion, 2.1.1: Definitions)." This
>shared authority was through the priestly collegia that were
>independent of one another. They each had their own roles and
>functions. There was a kind of order in status within each collegia
>and between one another, but this dignity of office did not extend as
>administrative authority between the various collegia. The Senate
>could refer any matter to whichever collegium they chose. This is
>precisely the case in the matter over Cicero's house, the Senate
>referred a question to the CP and it in turn offered its opinion on
>the question in the form of a responsum. In Roma antiqua the
>pontifex maximus was not a pope, and Collegium Pontificum did not sit
>as a Curia of Cardinals in judgement of every religious matter. The
>Collegium Pontificum had administrate authority over the Vestales and
>Flamines maiores, but not over all sacerdotes. The pontifices and
>augures both oversaw sacra publica, each in different aspects of the
>caeremonia. Sacerdotes administered sacra at their respective
>temples in accordance with leges templi and when improprieties were
>performed it fell upon the temple aediles or on the Praetores to take
>action. The pontifices did not oversee all aspects of the religio
>Romana. The Senate was the only body that could advise where action
>had to be taken, and who among magistrates and sacerdotes had to take
>action. It was for this reason that the Senate had authority to
>determine between the various collegia and sodalitates as to which a
>question like that posed by Cicero was to be addressed.

You have a very odd notion of the best scholarship. Citing an
introductory text as if it had anything definitive to say about a
complex issue such as the relationship between the Collegium
Pontificum and the Senate borders on the intellectually dishonest. In
fact, the relevant modern scholarship are the two standard works on
the Collegium Pontificum: A. Bouche-Leclercq's _Les pontifes de
l'ancienne Rome: etude historique sur les institutions religieuses de
Rome_ and F. Van Haeperen's _Le College Pontificale_. Both works
support my contention of separate jurisdictions. It is also a view
supported by Wissowa and Latte in the two standard handbooks on the
Religio Romana. John Scheid certainly is a brilliant scholar, but he
supports the position I have taken on jurisdictional competences in
his article "Auguste et le grand pontificat: Politique et droit sacre
au debut du Principat," _Rev. Hist. Droit_ 77 (1999). Given Nova
Roma's fixation on one brief work, translated into English, by this
scholar as the end all and be all of modern scholarship on the
Religio, it does not surprise me that the rest of his work has
apparently escaped your notice.

>Now let us look at your third example, Livy 34.44.1-3. PM Licinus
>Crassus "announced to the collegium, and then to the Senate, that the
>ver sacrum performed the previous year under M Porcius Cato and L.
>Valerius, were not properly performed and had to be conducted again
>under the direction of the pontifices." Clearly this was a religious
>matter. It does not presuppose, however, that the Collegium could
>rule solely on its own authority, but instead that the Senate had to
>be informed of the question and of the responsum of the Collegium to
>that question, because, ultimately, any decision to act on the
>opinion of the Collegium lay with the Senate rather than with the
>Collegium itself. The Collegium Pontificum did not have authority in
>Roma antiqua to issue decreta instituting new laws. They were not a
>legislative body even when it came to religious law. They were
>limited to offering only opinions of an interpretative nature on
>religious law that was either traditional or promulgated through the
>comitia. Those opinions were issued as responsa. The entire reason
>why PM Licinius had to take this matter to the Senate is because of
>the manner in which the ver sacrum was earlier declared by the
>highest religious authority in Roma antiqua, the People assembled in
>Comitia.

Apparently you did not read the second half of my sentence which you
quoted above. "Furthermore, it is belied by Livy himself who does cite
instances in which the Collegium Pontificum took independent action
and in which the Collegium compelled the Senate to take action." Livy
34, 44, 1-3 is a case where the Collegium raised an issue
independently of referral by the Senate and compelled the Senate to
take action. In light of the vitium the Senate had no other option.

>Livy 22.10, on the vow for the ver sacrum wrote: "After these
>resolutions by the Senate, the praetor consulted the Collegium
>(Pontificum). Lucius Cornelius Lentulus, the pontifex maximus, gave
>his opinion that first of all the comitia should be consulted on the
>question of the ver sacrum, for it could not be vowed against the
>wishes of the People."

You are confusing an event of 217 BCE, which is cited here, with the
Ver Sacrum of 195 BCE. We don't know if the vitium in 195 BCE touched
on the vow of the Ver Sacrum -- Livy doesn't mention it -- so we don't
know if reapproval of the vow by Comitia was required in 194 BCE. I
also did not contend that the Senate and magistrates didn't refer
matters to the Collegium; of course they did. I contended that the
Collegium also had an independent jurisdiction which allowed it to
take independent action on some matters and to refer others for action
by the Senate without the Senate's or a magistrate's prompting.

>The same was true in proposing the dedication
>of any temple and its lex templi, which became sacred law. Only a
>comitia had authority to declare something sacred, and in doing so
>its decision itself became sacred and inviolable. The Collegium
>Pontificum could not, on its own authority, declare a new form of
>sacrifice like the ver sacrum or a period of prayer and sacrifice.
>Livy offers examples of where the Senate could declare periods of
>traditional Roman sacrifice, but only a Comitia could sanction some
>introduction as represented by the ver sacrum. What does Livy tell
>us? The Praetor consulted with the pontifex maximus, who replied
>with a responsum of his own, not a collegial responsum. Later then
>another pontifex maximus, after twenty plus years from the original
>vow, informed the Senate that a sacred vow, approved by a comitia,
>had not been conducted properly. Such could be taken as an offense
>against the Gods, and a violation of a decision made by the People
>assembled in Comitia. But there is no way to justify posing this
>example as one of the Collegium Pontificum itself *compelling* the
>Senate to take action. The PM informed, advised the Senate that an
>error had been committed and it was up to the Senate then to address
>the matter.

Look at the text from Livy:

Uer sacrum factum erat priore anno, M. Porcio et L. Ualerio
consulibus. id cum P. Licinius pontifex non esse recte factum collegio
primum, deinde ex auctoritate collegii patribus renuntiasset, de
integro faciendum arbitratu pontificum censuerunt.

In the previous year of the consulship of M. Porcius and L. Valerius
there was a Ver Sacrum. The Pontifex P. Licinius reported to the
Collegium that it was not performed properly; then by the authority of
the Collegium they reported the matter to the Senate; the Senate
determined that there would be a new observance [of the Ver Sacrum]
under the supervision of the pontifices.

I'll wager that you missed the "ex authoritate collegii" because
you're using a translation like Roberts' which glosses it over. But
you have otherwise just made my point. The Collegium Pontificum
independently determined that a vitium had occurred and brought the
matter to the Senate's attention. Once that determination was made
the Senate had to issue a consultum to rectify the matter.

>With regard to the relationship between the Senate and Collegium
>Pontificum, or between the Senate and any of the other Quattor Summa
>Collegia, firstly, referring a question to the Collegium for advice
>still implies that the ultimate decision lay with the Senate, not
>with the Collegium. It supposes that the Senate had the authority
>to either accept or reject the response of the pontifices. You make
>mention of the Senate deferring to opinions of the Collegium. This
>is consistent with Mary Beard's scholarship. "Priests provided
>specialist advice in religious matters – but they lacked
>authoritative power in that area." The Senate could likewise seek
>the advice on civil law from specialists in civil law, but no where
>would it be taken that deference to the opinions of legal experts
>implied that they, rather than the Senate, held administrative
>authority over the institutions of the law. Most telling, in the
>opinion of Mary Beard and her colleagues, the Senate selected the
>collegium to which any question on the religio was to be referred.
>The Collegium Pontificum was only one of several advisory boards on
>the religio. Never was it the sole arbitrator over all religious
>questions. Whatever advice the Senate received, from whomever
>provided it, it was still for the Senate to decide what action should
>be taken.

This is obtuse. No one is arguing that the Senate didn't consult the
Decemviri on prodigies and portents which required examination of the
Sybilline Books. We are talking about who had jurisdiction in matters
of sacral law. When you've read Bouchet-Leclerq and Van Haeperen,
whose work specifically addresses the jurisdiction of the Collegium
Pontificum in sacral law, I doubt you'll have the spittle to mount
this argument. All you do is cite survey works in English when the
best, indeed the standard, scholarship on the specific matter at hand
is in French and German. You are arguing from lacunae in your command
of the literature.

>Your argument that the Senate *always* deferred to the opinion of the
>Collegium Pontificum is one based on a lack of evidence.

Do you imagine that if the Senate hadn't deferred to the Collegium
Pontificum an instance wouldn't have been cited by Livy as evidence of
impiety? Guess who Livy's patron was? Pontifex Maximus Gaius Iulius
Caesar Divi Filius Augustus. You can't understand Livy without
understanding that Livy's work is permeated with Augustus' agenda.
Livy would have noted such an occurrence of Senatorial rejection of
the Collegium in an instant.

>You
>correctly ask that we consider the intentions of Livy when reading
>what he has to say. I do not agree, however, with your assessment
>that matters of the religio are "periperal" to his story or
>intentions. He goes through lengths to explain past religious
>practices, as with the fetiales. He recorded portents in some
>detail, the dedication of temples, the introduction of festivals,
>recorded the ascension of priests to various offices, and had a
>general theme throughout his history decrying the decline of
>religious scruple. With this latter point, he countered it by
>showing where religious scruples were followed and how Rome thereby
>benefited. In general Livy's work can be summed up by his own
>words, "You discover that all events turn out well when we follow the
>Gods in obedience, and ill when we spurn Them (Livy 5.51.5-6)."
>Rather than being peripheral, the religio Romana is central to Livy's
>work. Thus, the examples that he provides are those where deference
>was given to religious considerations.

Read D.S. Levene's _Religion in Livy_. Religion in Livy is peripheral
precisely because it something which doesn't in itself interest Livy
much. It interests him only to the extent that it can be marshalled
to argue that the Senate and magistrates should be embued with the
values of the Augustan project which included using religion to
reinforce the kind of politics on which the early Principate was
based. There's very good evidence that a great deal of the treatment
of religion in Livy is an imperial idealisation.

>It may well be that such
>examples as found in Livy, Valerius Maximus, and with a few others,
>are presented precisely because they represent the exception rather
>than the norm. To counter-balance such examples Livy also gives
>examples of where magistrates ignored relgious scruples, neglecting
>rituals or tossing the sacred chickens overboard, only to have their
>campaigns end in disaster. Only after the fact was it then presumed
>that defeat came through neglecting the Gods. It could well have
>been, however, that such disregard was more than normal than not. If
>you place Livy's examples in the entire context of his work,
>bemoaning the decline of religious scruple, this is the entire point
>he was making that in his day the exception, rather than rule of the
>day, was to defer to the precepts of the religio Romana. In the
>Collegium Pontificum of Nova Roma I see that you have also made this
>point that we should refrain from making sweeping assessments as you
>did earlier, because the simple fact is that there is not enough
>evidence either way to say what was the norm, but surely the Senate
>did not *always* defer to the opinion of the pontifices.

The Senate always deferred to the Collegium because in the Republican
period the Religio Romana had no serious theological or ritual
controversies (the matter of foreign cults is a bit different, but not
pertinent here). The Senate had no reason not to defer to the
Collegium because its members were raised in precisely the same
traditions and rituals as the Pontifices, and the Pontifices were also
themselves senators. Individual senators may have behaved impiously
on occasion, but the Senate collectively in the Republican period
never adopted policies which ran contrary to or threatened the
traditional religion. That there was amity and cooperation in such an
arrangement is unsurprising. That there isn't in Nova Roma is equally
unsurprising.

>As for some of your other comments, Pontifex Scaure, as directly
>relate to the proposals introduced by Pontifex Astur, it is quite
>obvious that you did not read the proposals themselves. As one
>example, Pontifex Astur did provide for a quorum in the CP, one based
>on the very same passages from Cicero that you have used, and one
>that is more historical than the measure just passed by the CP.

I have, indeed, read the discussion of the proposal. However, the
material to which you allude was not included in the responsa which
were presented to the world as the opinion of the entire Collegium
when in fact it was the opinion of threes pontifices. To what measure
passed by the Collegium are you alluding?

>In
>many of the other details of the proposals as well, Pontifex Astur
>instilled an historical example for Nova Roma to follow. I do not
>agree with, or appreciate, your implication that your colleague has
>an incompetent command of ancient sources, especially as you have yet
>to demonstrate your own capacity to present a reasoned argument based
>on ancient sources.

I have great respect for Pontifex Astur. We correspond regularly in
Latin, something I've yet to see you offer to any colleague in the
Collegium. He and Cordus put forward an incompetent analysis of some
ancient material because they were not aware of the full scope of the
scholarly literature -- ask Astur if he's read Bouchet-Leclerq or Van
Haeperen. I find this line of argument precious coming from someone
who told the Collegium Pontificum that he rejected modern scholarship
because it didn't accord with his preconceptions.

>I also do not agree with your recommendation
>that we drop all discussion of reforming our religious institutions
>into a more historical model than is currently provided for in Nova
>Roma. Certainly members of the Collegium Pontificum may disagree over
>what the ancient sources suggest to us, but these are no more than
>disagreements over interpretation. One thing is certainly clear from
>the ancient sources. If the Pontifices can not come to some
>agreement among themselves on what to offer as an opinion on how Nova
>Roma might better follow the example of Roma antiqua, then a day
>could come when a Comitia reasserts its traditional authority over
>the matter and arrives at its own decision. It is not in the best
>interest of the religio Romana for the Pontifices to shirk their
>responsibilities any longer.

You threaten like a shameless bully. If you don't get your way in the
Collegium, you'll have someone go to Comitia to try to get your way.
Do it, if you have the bollocks, and we'll fight it out there. It's
little wonder that the Collegium does not act on this question when we
have a pontifex whose idea of cooperation and discussion is to tell
the Collegium, "Do it my way or I'll get my political buddies to try
to force you to do it my way."

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47967 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-04
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Q. Caecilius Metellus C. Iulio Scauro salutem.

I thank you again for pointing out the sources which I had requested in
a previous missive. While I haven't had time to read through them all
yet, I did see your response to M. Moravius Piscinus, and I only want to
comment, now, on two things. You quote, translate (e T. Livio), and state:

> Uer sacrum factum erat priore anno, M. Porcio et L. Ualerio
> consulibus. id cum P. Licinius pontifex non esse recte factum collegio
> primum, deinde ex auctoritate collegii patribus renuntiasset, de
> integro faciendum arbitratu pontificum censuerunt.
>
> In the previous year of the consulship of M. Porcius and L. Valerius
> there was a Ver Sacrum. The Pontifex P. Licinius reported to the
> Collegium that it was not performed properly; then by the authority of
> the Collegium they reported the matter to the Senate; the Senate
> determined that there would be a new observance [of the Ver Sacrum]
> under the supervision of the pontifices.
>
> I'll wager that you missed the "ex authoritate collegii" because
> you're using a translation like Roberts' which glosses it over. But
> you have otherwise just made my point. The Collegium Pontificum
> independently determined that a vitium had occurred and brought the
> matter to the Senate's attention. Once that determination was made
> the Senate had to issue a consultum to rectify the matter.

I'll assume you quote Livy from the edition from _The Latin Library_, or
so it seems. I am using the same, so we at least can not claim anything
on a difference there. I have some slight differences in translation,
but we generally come to the same meaning. My main difference, which I
want to point out, is your translation of 'de integro faciendum
arbitratu pontificum censuerunt'. Here, you have, "the Senate
determined that there would be a new observance [of the Ver Sacrum]
under the supervision of the pontifices." However, I would translate it
as, "about the whole [matter] they determined that it would be made by
the judgement of the pontifices." A strict look at the text wouldn't
give that a new observance is the explicit meaning, though I grant you
what follows "ludosque magnos qui una uoti essent... faciendos: uer
sacrum uideri pecus quod natum esset inter kal. Martias et pridie kal.
Maias P. Cornelio et Ti. Sempronio consulibus," certainly does. A minor
difference of translation, but the implications here could change a
reading of the text significantly.

I also want to point out that the text does not mention how "ex
auctoritate collegi patribus renuntiasset". We could assume it was done
in some official matter (e.g., the pontiffs issuing some decree to that
effect, on which the Senate then reacted, on which the pontiffs again
acted); it is also just as feasible from the text that those pontifices
who were within the Senate mentioned it during a meeting; it is just as
feasible that a member of the College was a magistrate with the ius
agendi, and it was brought that way. The text is imprecise here, and
making an assumption here could lead us into less secure waters than are
necessary.

I only point out these two things, without implication, I assure you. I
simply lay them here for all to consider and interpret as each
individual sees fit.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47968 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Bryn Mawr Review of Le College Pontifical
Françoise Van Haeperen, Le collège pontifical (3ème s. a. C. - 4ème
s. p. C.). Études de Philologie, d'Archéologie et d'Histoire
Anciennes, 39. Brussels: Brepols, 2002. Pp. 467. ISBN 90-74461-
49-2. EUR 46.00.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Reviewed by Marietta Horster, University of Rostock, Germany
(marietta.horster@...-rostock.de)
Word count: 1559 words


Le collège pontifical contains the major (?) part of Françoise Van
Haeperen's (V.H.) PhD thesis (University of Saint-Louis in Brussels,
Belgium) on the college of the pontifices which was finished in
2001. The focus of the book is on religious and socio-religious
questions, mainly the participation of the pontiffs in Roman
rituals, their duties and power, and their change of role in public
life over about 700 years, from the last 300 years of republican
times to 392 AD, when Theodosius prohibited pagan cults.1
Reasonably, the archaic period is left out since no reliable sources
exist on which reasonable arguments could be based. V.H. has divided
her subject in four main parts: I. the etymology of the term
pontifex; II. abstract ideas and ideal representations of the
pontiffs in ancient sources; III. structure and functioning of the
college of the pontiffs; IV. the duties of the members of the
pontifical college. Except for questions of the social and
geographic recruitment and the career patterns of the priests (dealt
with in part III), where she refers not to the sources but only to
modern works, V.H. cites the sources in Latin or Greek, often
verbatim, and gives French translations when she discusses texts in
more detail.2 In the tradition of John Scheid's unequalled work on
the Arval brethren and on other aspects of Roman religion and
priests,3 V.H.'s book is a synthesis of one of the most important
college of Roman priests and will become an often-cited book for
Roman priesthoods, religious rituals, and priestly duties.

Contrary to what the name of the college of the pontiffs may
suggest, this body of priests included not only the pontifices and
the pontifex maximus.4 The rex sacrorum, the three flamines maiorum
(Dialis, Martialis, and Quirinalis), the vestal virgins and perhaps
some pontifices minores were also part of this corporate body, which
in imperial times had about 37 to 39 regular members, all of them
senators or members of the senatorial ordo (108-111). Some
ceremonial and sacrificial duties were given to the wives of the
pontifical priests, who were called regina sacrorum or flaminica
Dialis etc. accordingly. V.H. does not discuss the status of these
women in relation to the college of pontiffs as a whole. It seems
likely that, even if they were (un-juridicially speaking) associated
members of the college by marriage, they surely had no vote, had no
charges within the college, and did not participate in the regular
meetings. The question whether the flamines of the divinised
emperors belonged to the college of the pontiffs is left open
(83f.).

The etymology of the name pontifex is discussed at length (11-42).
V.H. concludes from the notions of Varro, Dionysius of
Halicarnassus, Plutarch, late antique and byzantine authors and from
modern theories of Indo-European or Osco-Umbrian origin of the word
that it meant bridge-maker (pons + facere), albeit probably in a
wider sense. A pontifex would then be the one who smoothes the way
for the gods and to the gods. The other main thesis (posse /
potestas + facere) about the etymological roots of pontifex is not
completely excluded by V.H. and would in fact lead to a similar
meaning of the word pontifex, as the one who is able and has the
potestas to deal with the gods and the holy matters.

In a short second part V.H. discusses the few texts that give a more
abstract and theoretical description of the pontifices' duties (47-
77). Of Varro's book on the pontiffs (cf. Aug., civ. 6.3) only
little survives in Aulus Gellius and Nonius Marcellus. More
information is to be found in the books of Cicero, Livy, Dionysius
of Halicarnassus, Valerius Maximus, in Plutarch's Numa, Festus
summaries of Verrius Flaccus, and in later authors. In a very
general sense, the pontifices, whom ancient authors supposed to be
created by Numa, second king of Rome and (first) legislator, were
competent in all questions of the sacra. They were responsible for
the intercalation of days in the calendar and had duties in
establishing the festal and sacrificial calendar. They judged on
issues of religious behaviour and ritual. On that account, they also
had supervising and arbitrating competence in regard to other Roman
priests.

In Roman imperial times the so called quattuor amplissima collegia
of Roman priests had the following descending order of honour: the
(corporate body of) pontifices, the augurs, the quindecemviri sacris
faciundis and the septemviri epulonum. Being a member of the body of
the pontifical priests was very prestigious. The letters of
Symmachus of the late fourth century bear witness that at least in
western senatorial pagan circles being a member of the pontifical
college was still highly esteemed (cf. 87f., 116f., 204f.).

The book's third part (79-214) deals with the sociological base of
the collegium pontificum: the internal hierarchies, the different
selection procedures, the social and geographical background of
membership, the emperor as highest priest, reunions and decisions of
the college of the pontiffs.

All priesthoods are well attested until Severan times. Sources prove
the existence of the flamines until the beginning of the fourth
century, while the pontifices are attested until the end of the
fourth century (85-88). In post-severan times, the small number of
pagan senators interested in becoming pontiffs led to a change in
the pattern of office holding. In republican and imperial times no
more than one family member of a gens was member of the college of
the pontiffs, nor did one person hold more than one priesthood in
this collegium (111; 113f.). Obviously these (informal ?) rules
where loosened in the later part of the third century. The highest
priest of Rome and of the collegium pontificum was the pontifex
maximus. He had to be a member of the college of the pontiffs.
During the early Republic, he selected the rex sacrorum, the
vestales and flamines. The modes of elections of priests started to
change during the third century B.C. From then on, the pontiffs as
well as the pontifex maximus had to be first nominated by the
priests. Second, they were elected by the minor part of the populus
Romanus (17 out of the 35 tribes in republican times; in imperial
times the senate and not the populus, cf. p.123). In a third step,
they were inscribed by the collegium pontificum, and then
inaugurated by the pontifex maximus (96ff.; 120-131). In republican
and imperial times, the pontifex maximus could act on his own and
give device to the senate, but the college could do the same without
him in his absence.

All emperors became pontifex maximus until Gratian's resignation of
that priesthood.5 The emperors seem to have decided more and more in
religious and sacrificial issues, a power which -- as ancient
literary topoi note -- only "bad" emperors utilised excessively
(104f., 394f.). The duties of the absent emperors in the college and
for the res publica in imperial and late imperial times were
replaced by a promagister (181-186; 197-201). In the third century,
the phrase "pontifex maximus" seems to have meant less the highest
priest with a long tradition and specific duties than simply the
sacral part of the emperor's duties. This explains why two
pontifices maximi, Pupienus and Balbus, could be nominated in 238,
and why later usurpers did not hesitate to claim themselves not only
emperors but also highest priests (159f.; 213).

The fourth and last part of the book deals with the different
functions and duties of the single members of the college of
pontiffs and of the body on the whole (215-425). All priests of the
college and the entire body were considered as experts in sacral
law. Thus the duties like the management of the calendar with the
proclamation of the monthly calendar, the fixing and proclamation of
the Nones and of the monthly feasts as well as the surveillance of
days declared as holy, nefas, or "black days", on which it was
forbidden to start new projects or to prepare a departure, were in
the hands of this college or its individual members (216-237). The
body of the pontiffs was the authority in sacred matters to
individuals as well as the most important councillor to the senate
in ceremony and ritual. Questions of profanation, expiation,
removing of corpses etc. were answered and solved by these priests
(238-254; 308-340).

To my mind, V.H. has not elucidated the pontiff's duties in the
comitia calata convincingly. Her explanation that the pontiffs had
only an advisory function and could investigate candidates in front
of the comitia is not more convincing than the older theory of the
quasi-magistrative imperium of the priests who presided over the
comitia (275-308).

V.H. discusses in extenso the participation of the members of the
college in ceremonies and sacrifices (pp. 342-422). The mass of
evidence comes from Ovid's Fasti and various works of Varro. In
contrast, for the vota, the rituals and sacrifices for the emperor
and the imperial family a few inscriptions or reliefs prove that
members of the collegium pontificum participated in public
sacrifices connected with the new regime and the new cults.

On the whole, V.H.'s book is a careful and valuable analysis of the
pontifices. Shortcomings are the lack of a prosopographical part,
the (consequently) weak analysis of the social networks and civil
and military careers, in which she frequently makes claims without
proofs, and the indices, which are not particularly helpful.6


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Notes:

1. The book includes no prosopographical study is included, and
the results of the questioning for social background and career
patterns are mainly based on the studies of G. J. Szemler, The
Priests of the Roman Republic. A Study of Interactions between
Priesthoods and Magistracies, Brussels 1972; L. Schumacher,
Prosopographische Untersuchungen zur Besetzung der vier hohen
römischen Priesterkollegien im Zeitalter der Antonine und der
Severer (96-235 n. Chr.) Mainz 1973; and G. Howe, Fasti sacerdotum
populi Romani aetatis imperatoriae, Leipzig 1904. V.H. announces
(114 n. 190) to publish a complete list of the late antique
pontiffs. Until then Howe's compendium is still the only reference.
2. In a few texts the French translation differs in length from
the Latin text, cf. e.g. Tac.ann. 4.17.1 (p. 409).
3. To cite only a few: J. Scheid, Les frères Arvales. Recrutement
et origine sociale sous les empereurs julio-claudiens, Paris 1975;
Le collège des frères Arvales. Études prosopographique du
recrutement (69-304), Rome 1990; Romulus et ses frères. Le collège
de frères Arvales: modèle du culte public dans la Rome des
empereurs, Rome 1990.
4. In the following part of the review the words pontifices and
pontiffs are used for the pontifices in the narrower sense whereas
terms like college, or corporate body are used for the collegium
pontificum as a whole, including also rex sacrorum, flamines etc.
5. V.H. gives extensive lists of known and supposed dates of the
emperors becoming elected as pontifices maximi and discusses the
evidence of the imperial coinage in matters of membership to the
different priesthoods with due care (132-166). As regards the
Gratian's resignation of the priesthood of pontifex maximus V.H.
argues (166-186) quite convincingly for the date of 376, Gratian's
visit to Rome.
6. E.g. Varro ap. Non. p. 115.1 (48), Tac. ann. 4.17 and 15.22 (99
n. 112) are not included in the index nor are all the names of
members of the pontiffs' college of imperial times, attested only in
inscriptions (e.g. 197-199, 203).
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47969 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gentle pontiffs,

I find this absolutely riveting and am actually giddy with your combined
eloquence and dialogue. I am quite sure that everyone on the ML finds the
greater portion of your discussion to be of interest and are pleased to see two
members of the CP engaging in a spirited intellectual debate. However, I
would suggest that both of you should consider pulling in your claws just a tad
as it distracts from the content. Otherwise, the Praetores may have to bring
in a couple of bells and a bowl of cream.

Just a friendly suggestion.

F. Galerius Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47970 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Metello Pio SPD.

> I thank you again for pointing out the sources which I had requested in
> a previous missive.

You're entirely welcome, amice.

>While I haven't had time to read through them all
> yet, I did see your response to M. Moravius Piscinus, and I only want to
> comment, now, on two things. You quote, translate (e T. Livio), and state:
>
> > Uer sacrum factum erat priore anno, M. Porcio et L. Ualerio
> > consulibus. id cum P. Licinius pontifex non esse recte factum collegio
> > primum, deinde ex auctoritate collegii patribus renuntiasset, de
> > integro faciendum arbitratu pontificum censuerunt.
> >
> > In the previous year of the consulship of M. Porcius and L. Valerius
> > there was a Ver Sacrum. The Pontifex P. Licinius reported to the
> > Collegium that it was not performed properly; then by the authority of
> > the Collegium they reported the matter to the Senate; the Senate
> > determined that there would be a new observance [of the Ver Sacrum]
> > under the supervision of the pontifices.
> >
> > I'll wager that you missed the "ex authoritate collegii" because
> > you're using a translation like Roberts' which glosses it over. But
> > you have otherwise just made my point. The Collegium Pontificum
> > independently determined that a vitium had occurred and brought the
> > matter to the Senate's attention. Once that determination was made
> > the Senate had to issue a consultum to rectify the matter.
>
> I'll assume you quote Livy from the edition from _The Latin Library_, or
> so it seems. I am using the same, so we at least can not claim anything
> on a difference there. I have some slight differences in translation,
> but we generally come to the same meaning. My main difference, which I
> want to point out, is your translation of 'de integro faciendum
> arbitratu pontificum censuerunt'. Here, you have, "the Senate
> determined that there would be a new observance [of the Ver Sacrum]
> under the supervision of the pontifices." However, I would translate it
> as, "about the whole [matter] they determined that it would be made by
> the judgement of the pontifices." A strict look at the text wouldn't
> give that a new observance is the explicit meaning, though I grant you
> what follows "ludosque magnos qui una uoti essent... faciendos: uer
> sacrum uideri pecus quod natum esset inter kal. Martias et pridie kal.
> Maias P. Cornelio et Ti. Sempronio consulibus," certainly does. A minor
> difference of translation, but the implications here could change a
> reading of the text significantly.

I think there is a parallelism between the "faciendum" in the one
sentence and the "faciendos" in the other which is why I made the
translation choice I did.

> I also want to point out that the text does not mention how "ex
> auctoritate collegi patribus renuntiasset". We could assume it was done
> in some official matter (e.g., the pontiffs issuing some decree to that
> effect, on which the Senate then reacted, on which the pontiffs again
> acted); it is also just as feasible from the text that those pontifices
> who were within the Senate mentioned it during a meeting; it is just as
> feasible that a member of the College was a magistrate with the ius
> agendi, and it was brought that way. The text is imprecise here, and
> making an assumption here could lead us into less secure waters than are
> necessary.

From what we know of the fasti there appears to have been no sitting
magistrate in Collegium at the time, although we cannot guarantee that
they are complete. My point about the "ex auctoritate collegii" is
that the Collegium made a determination of sacral law on its own
authority, then took the matter to the Senate for civil action. How
the matter was precisely laid before the Senate we do not know.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47971 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
-, M. Lucullus (cos. 73 and a pontifex) is asked in the Senate
whether Cicero's house could be restored to him, and he replies
religionis iudices pontifices fuisse, legis [es]se senatum; se et
collegas suos de religione statuisse, in senatu de lege staturos cum
senatu (Cic. ad Att. 4.2.4). Jerzy Linderski has in fact given us a
masterly exposition of this passage in his crucial article "The
Augural Law": "the collegium pontificum had just passed the decree
that Clodius' dedication and consecration of Cicero's house was
invalid from the point of view of the pontifical law, and that the
house might be restored to Cicero without sacrilege (sine
religione). Whether the house should be restored to Cicero was an
altogether different question. It was a question of the law, and not
of the religio. It was to be decided by the Senate, the judge of the
law" (ANRW II 16.3 (1986) 2 161f). --

Professor Jerzy Linderski is Emeritus Professor of Latin at the
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
>Bryn Mawr Classical Review 97.2.9

---BRYN MAWR CLASSICAL REVIEW:
J. Linderski, Roman Questions: Selected Papers 1958-1993.
Heidelberger althistorische Beiträge und epigraphische Studien 20.
Stuttgart: Steiner, 1995. Pp. xv + 746. ISBN 3-515-06677-2.

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Reviewed by T. Corey Brennan, Departments of Greek and Latin, Bryn
Mawr College,

One rough-and-ready way to judge whether a new book on the later
Roman Republic is worth reading is to check its bibliography for
works by Jerzy Linderski, the Paddison Professor of Latin at the
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. If the book touches on
Republican politics, institutions or aspects of state or private
religion, and Linderski is not to be found, you are advised to
proceed, if at all, with extreme caution. (In the event that your
author tries to talk about auspices or augurs without Linderski,
immediately place the book in the nearest recycling bin.) But if
Linderski is cited, try to ascertain whether indeed he has been read
and understood. Should your author pass that test, you may be
reasonably confident that the new book is at least safe to handle.

The mira sapientia of L[inderski] has produced what now must be
close to 100 separate publications (mostly articles in major
journals) with no sign of flagging. All the ones I have seen -- and
I now have seen most -- show unusually deep learning, indefatigable
curiosity, and (especially in problem solving) an insight that is
sometime startling. L. has given us disquisitions of the highest
scholarly quality on the various collegia, elections (all imaginable
aspects), legislation, trials, and prosopography of the Ciceronian
era. His work is absolutely fundamental on a variety of religious
rituals of the state and private spheres, from modes of divination
to marriage. The legal aspects of military service have no better
authority. L. has also illuminated a host of issues relating to
antiquarianism in the Roman period, particularly Varro as an author.
But L. indulges in little antiquarianism for its own sake: technical
discussions are almost invariably tethered to issues central to the
politics and society of the Republic and early Empire. Then there is
L.'s style -- a model of scholarly akribeia, and often witty to
boot. And L. really has no peer when it comes to amassing
bibliography -- often arcane, in any number of languages -- relevant
to his arguments, routinely tracing the vicissitudes of a historical
question back to the seventeenth century (or beyond). In sum, for a
quick indication of L.'s auctoritas as it stood even a decade ago,
skim Broughton's Magistrates of the Roman Republic III (1986). There
L. emerges as one of the eight or nine authorities Broughton cites
most (as recognized by E. Champlin in his important review of MRR
III at CPh 84 [1989] 51).

Many scholars, some quite eminent, are obviously reading Linderski,
to judge from the spirited polemic that permeates the pages of R
[oman] Q[uestions]. But some who need to are not (see e.g. L.'s
remarks at RQ p. 679 or in AJPh 116 (1995) 154-156), despite the
fact that most of L.'s output has been in English. The trouble seems
twofold. First, the cult of the book. Until the appearance of the
present volume in late 1995 and the Broughton Festschrift Imperium
sine fine that L. edited (published also by Steiner Verlag) in 1996,
only a handful of American libraries had an actual book bearing L.'s
name on the shelves -- in this case one or both of his two Polish
language monographs (1961 and 1966). There is "The Augural Law", a
monograph-length study which in fact is one of the most important
modern contributions to the study of Roman religion. But that lies
buried in a particularly obese installment of the still-sprawling
Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt (II 16.3, at pp. 2146-
2312). Which brings us to the second part of the trouble: the
articles themselves, which are often intricate and always
challenging. "They make very difficult reading, and many scholars
prefer to disregard them. They run the risk of having their own
articles consigned to the waste-basket." Thus L., on the augural
writings of I.M.J. Valeton (ANRW II 16.3 p. 2311), who wrote a
century ago. Now that L. has superseded his predecessor in this
field (and eclipsed those in many others), his words have an obvious
applicability to his own output.

The present collection makes reading L. as easy as it can get.
Produced to exemplary standards by Steiner Verlag, RQ is an
alternately inspiring and daunting retrospective, consisting of 64
(or 65, depending on how one counts) of L.'s papers, all superbly
indexed (by modern authors, ancient authors, inscriptions, in
addition to a subject index -- amounting to almost 70 pages in all).
I should note that if one excepts the two Polish monographs and "The
Augural Law", pretty much all of L.'s more substantial works for the
relevant period (1958-1993) seem to be here. The only additional
article that comes to mind is "Partus ancillae", Labeo 33 (1987) 192-
198, but there indeed may be more. It is hard to tell, since RQ does
not offer a complete bibliography of L.'s work, and L'Année
philologique is not completely reliable (e.g. it never reported RQ
nos. 4, 25, 49 and 59 when they first appeared.) The choice of L.'s
reviews is demonstrably selective, for I can think of almost two
dozen that did not make it into RQ. Here one real desideratum for
this reviewer is L.'s frank assessment in AJPh 113 (1992) 125-128 of
a tome which (perhaps thanks to its very size) has rapidly
established itself for many as a definitive study of the Republican
Senate.

A word about how the book looks. Almost all the papers included in
RQ are photographed straight from the original publications. Not to
fear: the technical standards of reproduction are much better than
what one has come to expect from similar enterprises (only no. 23
disappoints), and even offerings culled from large-format, densely-
printed journals such as JRS fit easily on the page and are fully
legible. L.'s papers here range in length from laconic (1 p.) to
substantial (32 pp.), but most are brief (more than three-quarters
of the total are less than a dozen pages). Thirteen of the 64 items
are -- or started off as -- book reviews, at least six of which
clearly qualify as "review-articles". All but seven of the 64 pieces
are in English: there is one short Latin note, and the rest are
written in clear German. (I should note however that quotes in Greek
and Latin are hardly ever translated.) The volume contains no new or
unpublished works, and L. has revised the actual text of only two
early pieces (nos. 31 and 36). Yet L. (most impressively) has
updated all the papers collected here in 47 pages of 'Addenda and
Corrigenda', composed in 1994. These notes -- in most cases going
far beyond the simple collection of subsequent bibliography, with
further discussion and renewed polemic -- are keyed to the
pagination of this volume and the original (the printed text has
both numbers). I find it absolutely remarkable that L. has retained
an interest in and continued to think about almost every major
problem he has treated in 35 years of publication. This feature
continues beyond the pages of this collection: for example,
see "Games in Patavium", Ktema 17 (1992) [1996], a sequel to RQ no.
38 (1983), "Natalis Patavii". Now that L. has started using tools
such as the PHI Latin CD-ROM in his work (see Gnomon 68 [1996] 560)
we may reasonably expect more of this type of reexploration.

The papers in RQ have been arranged by L. himself thematically in
eight categories: 'Historia' (nos. 1-4, a division that includes
modern intellectual history), 'Ius Publicum' (5-14), 'Collegia' (15-
17), 'Prosopographica' (18-30), 'Auctores' (31-35), 'Epigraphica'
(36-41), and 'Religio' (47-64). (The second and last categories take
up almost half the volume.) One slight disadvantage of a non-
chronological arrangement is that it is not all that easy from this
collection to trace L.'s scholarly development. A brief
biographical 'Vorwort' by Géza Alföldy, however, does help one
navigate around this massive volume. Ten of these papers (in
chronological order, nos. 36, 42, 16, 31, 17, 18, 35, 5, 6 and 19 --
three in German, the rest in English) L. wrote during his years at
Cracow (1958-1966), a period punctuated, I am delighted to note, by
a spell at Bryn Mawr (see no. 18, published in 1963). Alongside
these articles are those two substantial works in Polish from the
Cracow years not reprinted here: Panstwo a kolegia = Staat und
Vereine from 1961 (German summary at pp. 115-116 in that monograph)
and Rzymskie zgromadzenie wyborcze od Sulli do Cezara = The Roman
Electoral Assembly from Sulla to Caesar (English summary at pp. 171-
173). Though this can serve only as the roughest of guides, it is
interesting to observe that in RQ only two of L.'s eight thematic
divisions do not contain something from the Cracow period --
'Historia' and (somewhat surprisingly) 'Religio'. And of the six
categories where L. did start his writing in Poland, in all but one
('Collegia') he continued to publish into the 1980s and (often)
1990s. Of course, one must allow for the vagueness of some of the
categories (e.g. 'Auctores') and the fact that L. obviously chose
these divisions precisely to impose order on his own opus. But even
so, there appears to be a real continuity and intellectual coherence
to the topics L. has singled out for study.

L.'s exemplary method (on which see the remarks of Alföldy at pp.
xiii-xiv) seems also quite developed even in his earliest works.
Already in Panstwo a kolegia we find L. tracking the treatment of
individual problems back to authorities as early as Sigonius and
Brissonius (p. 7 n. 3). Or consider his 1964 article (RQ no.
35) "Alfred the Great and the Tradition of Ancient Geography", which
shows nicely some basics of L.'s general approach. By way of
reaction to a prevailing view in the scholarly literature, L.
lucidly reanalyzes the text of a problematic passage (this one in
Old English). He then builds a complex interpretation based on wide
reading in sources both ancient (here, including some difficult late
Roman geographical descriptions) and modern (the bibliography
collected in p. 360 n. 24 must be seen to be believed). At the
appropriate rhetorical point, the reader is hit with a striking
conclusion -- in this case (RQ p. 361) that Alfred's description of
the Danubian region is based ultimately on the Map of
Agrippa. "Classical elements are presumably still to be discovered
in many places", L. suggests, "in Alfred and elsewhere, where nobody
suspects their presence." Unfortunately, Alfred himself is still to
be discovered even in recent discussions of the Map of Agrippa that
seem otherwise well-informed (see L.'s remarks in the 'Addenda' to
this article at RQ p. 680). It is a pity that L. himself never
published further on this particular subject.

The period 1966-1970 found L. involved in the intricacies of
emigrating from Poland (see Alfoeldy at pp. xi-xii). These years are
represented principally by nos. 15 and 47. The latter of these --
"Römischer Staat und die Götterzeichen: zum Problem der
obnuntiatio", the earliest piece in the 'Religio' section of RQ --
is an important transitional article, for it builds on previous work
on obnuntiatio in the Electoral Assembly book (see pp. 74-103 in
that volume), and presages L.'s later in-depth investigation of the
augural law. The other fifty-odd papers in RQ (1971-1993) date from
L.'s time in the United States, first at the University of Oregon
and its Department of History, and then the Classics Department at
Chapel Hill.

The record of L.'s American years is one of steady growth,
drastically increasing in the first half of the early 1980s. For
instance, in 1990 alone L. managed to publish seven substantial
pieces, each quite different from the others. A list is instructive.
First, the articles: a penetrating study on the tension between
modern institutional and narrative approaches to Roman history (RQ
no. 2, "Mommsen and Syme"), a detailed reconstruction of the
compromise which allowed the admission of plebeians into the
consulship (no. 56), and discussions of military tribunes and
(alleged) legati in the mid-Republic (no. 29), the granting of
triumphal agnomina by the Senate (no. 46), and the proper
explication of a misunderstood anecdote 'de pudicitia' in Valerius
Maximus (no. 30). I might mention that in that last item L. traces
the erroneous interpretation of Valerius' story back to the 1487
commentary by Oliverius Arziganensis, and the correct one to a 1513
commentary of Iodocus Badius Ascenius (pp. 320 n. 2, 321 n. 7),
filling in some of the intervening stages as well. Indeed,
throughout his work L. amply documents his conviction that in most
questions of classical philology there is 'nihil novi sub sole' (see
e.g. pp. 345f, 351f, 590f, or for that matter, the 'Index of Modern
Authors', where one finds scores of pre-1850 scholars). And if
anything, L.'s efforts to rescue the more deserving erudites from
oblivion seem in more recent years to be rising in intensity (for a
representative example, see Ktema 17 (1992) [1996] 60 n. 27). But we
are not yet finished with that list for 1990. Rounding off L.'s work
for the year are two impressive review-articles. One (no. 61) treats
a publication of the bronze (haruspical) liver from Piacenza, but
turns out to be a superb jumping-off point for anyone seeking a
guide to scholarship on the disciplina Etrusca in general. The other
(no. 41) is a detailed survey of the first three volumes in the
rejuvenated Supplementa Italica epigraphic series. Many of L.'s
comments here could form the basis for a separate article, as p. 411
with its 11 page expansion in no. 40 ("Certis Calendis", from 1991)
goes to show.

One could focus on pretty much any other year of the 1980s or 1990s
and be similarly impressed by L.'s breadth and (of course) depth.
That is why it is hard to come up with a reasonable shortlist of the
most important contributions from this large group of "American"
papers. Two that must be mentioned from L.'s first years outside
Poland are nos. 10 ("Three Trials in 54 BC" [1971]) and 20 ("The
aedileship of Favonius, Curio the Younger and Cicero's Augurate"
[1972]). These articles, along with no. 8 ("The Dramatic Date of
Varro, De Re Rustica, Book III", from 1985), are absolutely crucial
for establishing the chronology of political events in Rome during
the latter half of the 50s -- and as such are frequently cited in
MRR III. Of these, "Favonius" -- like many other pieces in RQ --
offers much more than the title suggests. We get a salutary
demonstration (RQ pp. 238-240) of why a serious prosopographer needs
to check old editions of texts, the best discussion I know (pp.
241f) of the nature of the lex Domitia (104 BC) on election to major
priesthoods, and even an erudite discussion of the speed of travel
in antiquity (p. 244 n. 54), with some precious bibliography. And
when L. gets to the end of his involved argument (p. 250), a lesson
in methodology. "The results achieved are purely conditional: but we
should not convert possibilities into facts and pretend to know more
than we do." Now, L. has a real flair for coming up with a neat and
convincing solution to a seemingly intractable problem (for a good
early [1966] example, see no. 6). But "Favonius" amply shows that L.
possesses a particularly keen sense of the limits of his evidence
(see also no. 23, with its negative conclusion at p. 283). One
article (no. 22, at p. 279) even concludes with the pronouncement
that "every author should at times act as his own advocatus diaboli
and try to destroy his own thesis; it is therefore our duty to point
out possible ways of attacking our line of defence...". And that is
precisely what L. then goes on to do. I wonder how often journal
editors in any academic field see submissions that approach this
standard of intellectual honesty.

To return to that shortlist. L. wrote the bulk of his
masterpiece "The Augural Law" in 1977-1978 (see his introductory
note at ANRW II 16.3 p. 2146) and apparently -- to judge from that
massive article's bibliography -- completed it two or three years
before the 1986 publication date. That partly explains how already
in 1983 L. could launch a series of confident, clear essays on the
arcana of the augurs and their doctrines, namely RQ no. 48, "Cicero
and Roman Divination", then no. 50 "The Libri Reconditi" (1985) and
the especially lucid "Watching the Birds" (no. 49, from 1986). These
three pieces are essential reading, not least because they disengage
some of the most important general points on the collegium augurum
and the public auspices that reside in "The Augural Law". That
monograph-length study is not just large, but extremely involved and
(as I write this) has no index, and so poses a challenge over and
above the notoriously vexing subject matter.

There is another insight that comes from reading L.'s shorter items
on the augurs. From "The Libri Reconditi" article in particular one
suspects L. is fully capable of writing an equally learned monograph
on the pontifical law (see pp. 499-504). The same goes for the
technical aspects of Roman marriage, as other items from this
general period of L.'s development show. L. naturally is an expert
on the privata auspicia as they relate to the marriage ceremony (see
no. 14, "Usu, farre, coemptione" [1984], no. 55, "Religious Aspects
of the Conflict of the Orders" [1986], and later no.
57 "Heliogabalus, Alexander Severus and the ius confarreationis",
and most recently AJPh 116 [1995] 154-156). But he also is
indispensible on the bride's position in civil law and Roman rights
of succession, topics that come into one of the best essays in
RQ , "Julia in Regium" (no. 39 [1988]), which explores the legal
status of Augustus' daughter. Yet simultaneous with those
authoritative discussions of auspices private and public in the mid-
1980s, L. was publishing major articles on modern interpretations of
Rome's imperialism (no. 1 [1984], particularly worth reading on Bryn
Mawr's Tenney Frank), the military oath down to the triumviral
period (no. 13, also 1984), and electoral corruption in the late
Republic (no. 9 [1985]). Works of synthesis of this type are L.'s
most accessible, and in some respects his most illuminating. I am
glad to see that they have increased as a proportion of L.'s output
in more recent years (see my remarks above on L.'s publications of
1990). Indeed, one of the most valuable passages in all of RQ can be
found in L.'s final (and chronologically latest) essay for this
collection, the excellent "Roman Religion in Livy" (no. 64 [1993]),
where he demonstrates (pp. 613f) that Livy never gives us in any one
passage the full procedure for expiation of omens and prodigies. But
L. pieces it together all the same, discovering six stages in all.

I think the method can be extended well beyond prodigia. L.'s own
work shows that Livy's voluminous history sometimes provides enough
pontifical, auspical, or constitutional detail to allow a reliable
reconstruction of a complicated ceremony or process. The locus
classicus is L.'s commentary on the inauguration of Numa at ANRW II
16.3 pp. 2256-2297, where forty pages are devoted to elucidating
Liv. 1.18.6-10, with some dazzling results (including the
observation that Livy has fudged the procedure -- see p. 2279f, on
the augur's "prayer"). Scholars simply must be more alert to the
hazards of reconstructing such-and-such a process on the basis of
one or two isolated items in Livy. As L. shows, the first step must
be the hard work of pulling all the relevant notices together and to
systematize what Livy mentions at random, and then to see whether
there is enough for a generalization. Of course, the same goes for
Cicero (in RQ, see nos. 6, 21, 29 and 55).

Throughout RQ L. has much to say about his philological and
historical principles (see e.g. pp. 8, 106, 288, 367, 413). L. is
even more explicit about what scholars he has chosen for emulation,
and why. In the Preface to RQ (p. xv), L. thanks his "first Teacher
and Master, Ludwik Piotrowicz" (on whom see L. also in Imperium sine
fine p. 185 n. 54), since "he taught me to read the sources first.
Without him I would not have come to know Mommsen and Syme, [L.R.]
Taylor and Broughton. Of the ancients, Marcus Terentius Varro. He
was possessed of erudition, curiosity, and wit." Emphasis on the
importance of reading these lumina runs throughout RQ (see pp. 32-43
[esp. 39], 68 n. 3, 286 n. 7, 289, 593). And one need only glance at
the Index of Modern Authors to see how closely L. has read also
Drumann-Groebe ("a mine of information" says L. at RQ p. 287, one of
his highest forms of praise), Lange, Münzer, A.S. Pease (whose
commentaries for L. [ANRW II 16.3 p. 2308] "represent the best
tradition of classical philology"), Valeton, Willems and Wissowa --
to name just some of the older scholars cited again and again in RQ.
But one of the most valuable features of this collection is that L.
singles out a veritable host of less familiar names for praise or
blame. Some are entirely obscure, for L. is a great reader of
dissertations (published or not) and antiquarian monographs, from
all periods through the present moment (see e.g. RQ p. 638). Were it
not for L.'s recommendation, how else would the non-specialist know
to seek out S.H. Rinkes (1854) on ambitus, or the 1921 dissertation
of S.P.C. Tromp De piaculis Romanis? L. scatters literally hundreds
of such pointers throughout the papers collected in RQ. If this
notion appeals, the place to go for instant gratification is really
L.'s annotated bibliography to "The Augural Law" (ANRW II 16.3 pp.
2297-2312). There L. lists well over 400 individual items relevant
to his study, offering pithy judgements on most. Some are far from
gentle. ("I have not so far succeeded in finding out what the author
wished to write about" notes L. on one item.) But L. reserves
perhaps what is his sternest censure (p. 2310 top) for someone who
has not read Valeton -- nor for that matter Linderski -- and so
mistakenly thinks a recent scholarly "demonstration" is indeed truly
new.

With some energy and imagination, one could use RQ in a way quite
unintended by its author -- as a handbook for philological and
historical method. That is how good its constituent essays are. "But
admiration", as L. himself notes (ANRW II 16.3 p. 2300), "need not
always mean agreement". There is some scope for critiquing L.'s
reconstruction of the ius augurale as it played out in public law,
particularly in the adventurous "Auspices and the Struggle of the
Orders" (no. 56 [1990]), where I think L. tries to wring too much
from evidence that comes from a speech Livy has composed for Ap.
Claudius. We see a similar (though here more cautious) trust in the
factual accuracy of Livy's speeches in "Roman Officers in the Year
of Pydna" (no. 29, also 1990) at pp. 318f. More consequentially, in
that same article on Pydna (pp. 314-315), on the provision for 168
BC 'creari ... neminem eo anno placere, nisi qui honorem gessisset',
L. has oddly missed the important precedent of the emergency year
216 BC, as reported by Livy at 22.35.7. Otherwise one is hard
pressed to detect another instance in RQ where L. has failed to cite
a piece of ancient evidence directly relevant to his argument. There
are a few different sorts of controversiae in RQ I could register,
but not without seeming like a pedant.

To sum up L.'s achievement in this monumental collection, one could
do worse than to turn to a passage from the Octavius of Minucius
Felix, as elucidated and translated (RQ p. 533) by L. himself. For
we really owe L. thanks for "those famous Roman auspices and
auguries" -- and of course much else besides -- "which were
collected and explained with such great labor, and which on [his]
evidence were neglected with remorseful consequences and observed
with success."



>
>

>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47972 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Hortensiae Maiori SPD.

> -, M. Lucullus (cos. 73 and a pontifex) is asked in the Senate
> whether Cicero's house could be restored to him, and he replies
> religionis iudices pontifices fuisse, legis [es]se senatum; se et
> collegas suos de religione statuisse, in senatu de lege staturos cum
> senatu (Cic. ad Att. 4.2.4). Jerzy Linderski has in fact given us a
> masterly exposition of this passage in his crucial article "The
> Augural Law": "the collegium pontificum had just passed the decree
> that Clodius' dedication and consecration of Cicero's house was
> invalid from the point of view of the pontifical law, and that the
> house might be restored to Cicero without sacrilege (sine
> religione). Whether the house should be restored to Cicero was an
> altogether different question. It was a question of the law, and not
> of the religio. It was to be decided by the Senate, the judge of the
> law" (ANRW II 16.3 (1986) 2 161f). --

This is exactly my bloody point. There were two legal questions and
jurisdictions involved. The Collegium ruled on whether the
consecration was valid and, in invalidating it, removed any impediment
in sacral law to returning the property to Cicero. The second
question, whether there were any impediments in civil law to restoring
it to Cicero, was resolved by the Senate under its jurisdiction
Q.E.D.

I should also point out that Linderski was simply amplifying an
argument put forward by Bouchet-Leclerq.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47973 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
M. Hortensia G. Iulio spd;
The scholarly thing to do is actually read the entire monograph
on "Augural Law" by Prof. Linderski before drawing conclusions.
Additionally I would read "Roman Questions" since he is the
genius on this topic & discusses pontifical law. And I can always
ring him as he lives here.
vale
M. Hortensia Maior




Jerzy Linderski has in fact given us a
> > masterly exposition of this passage in his crucial article "The
> > Augural Law": "the collegium pontificum had just passed the
decree
> > that Clodius' dedication and consecration of Cicero's house was
> > invalid from the point of view of the pontifical law, and that
the
> > house might be restored to Cicero without sacrilege (sine
> > religione). Whether the house should be restored to Cicero was
an
> > altogether different question. It was a question of the law,
and not
> > of the religio. It was to be decided by the Senate, the judge
of the
> > law" (ANRW II 16.3 (1986) 2 161f). --
>
> This is exactly my bloody point. There were two legal questions
and
> jurisdictions involved. The Collegium ruled on whether the
> consecration was valid and, in invalidating it, removed any
impediment
> in sacral law to returning the property to Cicero. The second
> question, whether there were any impediments in civil law to
restoring
> it to Cicero, was resolved by the Senate under its jurisdiction
> Q.E.D.
>
> I should also point out that Linderski was simply amplifying an
> argument put forward by Bouchet-Leclerq.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47974 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Non. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est Nonis Decembribus; haec dies nefastus est.

"While this report was being made and listened to with the greatest
attention, and the name and greatness of Rome were being mourned over
as though lost for ever, in the council of her faithful allies,
Ofillius Calavius, the son of Ovus, addressed the senators. He was a
man of high birth and with a distinguished career and now venerable
for his age. He is reported to have said: "The truth is far otherwise.
That stubborn silence, those eyes fixed on the ground, those ears deaf
to all consolation, that shame-faced shrinking from the light, are all
indications of a terrible resentment fermenting in their hearts which
will break out in vengeance. Either I know nothing of the Roman
character or that silence will soon call forth amongst the Samnites
cries of distress and groans of anguish. The memory of the
capitulation of Caudium will be much more bitter to the Samnites than
to the Romans. Whenever and wherever they meet each side will be
animated by its own courage and the Samnites will not find the Caudine
Forks everywhere. Rome was now aware of its disaster. The first
information they received was that the army was blockaded, then came
the more gloomy news of the ignominious capitulation. Immediately on
receiving the first intelligence of the blockade they began to levy
troops, but when they heard that the army had surrendered in such a
disgraceful way, the preparations for relieving them were abandoned,
and without waiting for any formal order the whole City presented the
aspect of public mourning. The booths round the Forum were shut up;
all public business in the Forum ceased spontaneously before the
proclamation closing it was made; the senators laid aside their purple
striped tunics and gold rings; the gloom amongst the citizens was
almost greater than that in the army. Their indignation was not
confined to the generals or the officers who had made the convention,
even the innocent soldiers were the objects of resentment, they said
they would not admit them into the City. But this angry temper was
dispelled by the arrival of the troops; their wretched appearance
awoke commiseration amongst the most resentful. They did not enter the
City like men returning in safety after being given up for lost, but
in the guise and with the expression of prisoners. They came late in
the evening and crept to their homes, where they kept themselves so
dose that for some days not one of them would show himself in public
or in the Forum. The consuls shut themselves up in privacy and refused
to discharge any official functions with the exception of one which
was wrung from them by a decree of the senate, namely, the nomination
of a Dictator to conduct the elections. They nominated Q. Fabius
Ambustus, with P. Aelius Paetus as Master of the Horse. Their
appointment was found to be irregular, and they were replaced by M.
Aemilius Papus as Dictator and L. Valerius Flaccus as Master of the
Horse. Even they, however, were not allowed to conduct the elections;
the people were dissatisfied with all the magistrates of that year,
and so matters reverted to an interregnum. Q. Fabius Maximus and M.
Valerius Corvus were successively interreges, and the latter held the
consular elections. Q. Publilius Philo and L. Papirius Cursor-the
latter for the second time-were returned. The choice was universally
approved, for all knew there were no more brilliant generals at that
day." - Livy, History of Rome 9.7



"Faune, nympharum fugientium amator,
per meos finis et aprica rura
lenis incedas, abeasque paruis
aequus alumnis,si tener pleno cadit haedus anno,
larga nec desunt Veneris sodali
uina craterae, uetus ara multo
fumat odore.
Ludit herboso pecus omne campo,
cum tibi nonae redeunt Decembres;
festus in pratis uacat otioso
cum boue pagus;
inter audacis lupus errat agnos,
spargit agrestis tibi silua frondis,
gaudet inuisam pepulisse fossor
ter pede terram."

(Faunus, lover of fleeing nymphs,
may you walk gently through my property
and the sunny countryside, and may you
depart in kindliness to my young flock,
if at the year's end a tender kid goat falls
and much wine fills the bowl
(companion to Venus), the old altar
is smoky with abundant fragrance.
The whole herd sports on the grassy plain,
when the fifth of December returns in your honor;
the festive rural folk loll about in the meadows
with the ox which is free,
the wolf wanders amidst the fearless lambs,
the forest scatters its wild leaves for you;
the peasant delights to have struck the hated
ground thrice with his foot.) - Horace, Odes 3.18

"I sing of Pan, Nymphe-leader, darling of the Naiades, adornment of
golden choruses, lord of winsome muse when he pours forth the
god-inspired siren-song of the melodious syrinx, and stepping nimbly
to the melody leaps down from shadowy caves, moving his all-shape
body, fine dancer, fine of face, conspicuous with blond beard. To
star-eyed Olympos goes the all-tune sound, sprinkling the company of
the Olympian gods with immortal muse. All the earth and sea are mixed
thanks to you, for you are the bulwark of all, oh ie Pan, Pan!" -
Greek Lyric V Anonymous, Fragments 936 (Inscription from the shrine of
Asclepius at Epidaurus)

"The Nymphai one day became visible to Kerambos as they danced to the
strumming of his lyre. Pan, in good will, gave him this advice: to
leave Othrys and pasture his flocks on the plain, for the coming
winter was going to be exceptionally and unbelievably severe.
Kerambos, with the arrogance of youth, decided - as though smitten by
some god - not to drive his beasts from Othrys to the plain ...
Kerambos [in his arrogance] taunted the Nymphai [with insults]. After
a short while there came a sudden frost and the streams froze. Much
snow fell on the flocks of Kerambos and they were lost to sight as
well as were the trees and paths. The Nymphai, in anger against
Kerambos because of his slanders, changed him into a wood-gnawing
Kerambyx beetle." - Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 22

"In the bays and pastures of Apulia there he had seen a grotto deep in
shade, of forest trees, hidden by slender reeds, the home of half-goat
Pan, though once the Nymphae lived there." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 14.513

Today is the Faunalia, a festival held in honor of the god Faunus.
Faunus is an ancient Italian rural deity whose attributes in classical
Roman times were identified with those of the Greek god Pan. Pan was
the god of shepherds and flocks, of mountain wilds, hunting and rustic
music. He wandered the hills and mountains of Arkadia playing his
pan-pipes and chasing Nymphs. His unseen presence aroused feelings of
panic in men passing through the remote, lonely places of the wilds.
The god was a lover of nymphs, who commonly fled from his advances.
Syrinx ran and was transformed into a clump of reeds, out of which the
god crafted his famous pan-pipes. Pitys escaped and was turned into a
mountain fir, the god's sacred tree. Ekho spurned his advances and
fading away left behind only her voice to repeat forever the mountain
cries of the god. Pan was depicted as a man with the horns, legs and
tail of a goat, and with thick beard, snub nose and pointed ears. He
was often shown in the company of the god Dionysos alongside the other
rustic gods.

Faunus was originally worshiped throughout the countryside as a
bestower of fruitfulness on fields and flocks. He eventually became
primarily a woodland deity, the sounds of the forest being regarded as
his voice.

A grandson of Saturn, Faunus was typically represented as half man,
half goat, a derivation from the Greek Satyr, in the company of
similar creatures, known as Fauns. Like Pan, Faunus was associated
with merriment, and his twice-yearly festivals were marked by revelry
and abandon. Faunus was known as the father of Bona Dea (Fauna, his
feminine side) and Latinus by the nymph Marica (who was also sometimes
Faunus' mother). Justin Martyr identified him as Lupercus ("he who
wards off the wolf"), the protector of cattle, but his identification
is not supported by any earlier classical sources. Faunus was a Latin
king, son of Picus and Canens. He was then revered as the god Fatuus
after his death, worshipped in a sacred forest outside what is now
Tivoli, but had been known since Etruscan times as Tibur, the seat of
the Tiburtine Sibyl.

If one were to believe the Greek historian Plutarch (in "The
Obsolescence of Oracles", Moralia, Book 5:17), Pan is the only Greek
god who is dead. During the reign of Tiberius (A.D. 14-37), the news
of Pan's death came to one Thamus, a sailor on his way to Italy by way
of the island of Paxi. A divine voice hailed him across the salt
water, "Thamus, are you there? When you reach Palodes, take care to
proclaim that the great god Pan is dead." Which Thamus did, and the
news was greeted from shore with groans and laments.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Wikipedia, Horace, Ovid, Antoninus Liberalis, theoi.com
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47975 From: os390account Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: The cista has closed
Salvete Quirites,

The cista has closed.

Valete,
Q. Valerius Callidus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47976 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Q. Caecilius Metellus M. Hortensiae Maiori aed. pl. sal.

> The scholarly thing to do is actually read the entire monograph
> on "Augural Law" by Prof. Linderski before drawing conclusions.
> Additionally I would read "Roman Questions" since he is the
> genius on this topic & discusses pontifical law. And I can always
> ring him as he lives here.

Marca Hortensia, I would be careful here. Your insinuation that Iulius
Scaurus has not read either work may be right, but it may just as much
be wrong. I can't speak for him, but you may be walking yourself into
your own downfall of argument.

At any rate, I have to ask you whether or not you have read Dr.
Linderski's works yourself.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47977 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Maiori SPD.

> > The scholarly thing to do is actually read the entire monograph
> > on "Augural Law" by Prof. Linderski before drawing conclusions.
> > Additionally I would read "Roman Questions" since he is the
> > genius on this topic & discusses pontifical law. And I can always
> > ring him as he lives here.

I've read "The Augural Law," and rather earlier than you, if you've
read it at all, since I've subscribed to the Aufsteig und Niedergang
der römischen Welt series since its inception. I also have the
Linderski anthology in my library. When you call him, be certain to
tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist. I'm
sure he can use a good laugh.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47978 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
M. Hortensia Iulio Scauro Metllo spd;
well if you actually had this source; why didn't you share
it with Astur & Cordus when they wrote the reform? Why waste all
their good efforts. When Cordus just asked on the ML for sources
corraborating your ideas, why didn't you post them?
I just found these articles & shared it with Cordus and
everyone else here. If I have an argument, I don't pass it off as my
own, rather I give it proper attribution.
As for your unpleasant last remark. It displays your own
character.
No wonder Cordus was fed up; I'll have nothing more to do
with this.
M. Hortensia Maior

> > > The scholarly thing to do is actually read the entire
monograph
> > > on "Augural Law" by Prof. Linderski before drawing
conclusions.
> > > Additionally I would read "Roman Questions" since he is the
> > > genius on this topic & discusses pontifical law. And I can
always
> > > ring him as he lives here.
>
> I've read "The Augural Law," and rather earlier than you, if you've
> read it at all, since I've subscribed to the Aufsteig und
Niedergang
> der römischen Welt series since its inception. I also have the
> Linderski anthology in my library. When you call him, be certain
to
> tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist.
I'm
> sure he can use a good laugh.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47979 From: Stefn Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: C Centuriata draft tally
Avete omnes;

I have sent my draft tally of the final results in the current Comitia
Centuriata on the four constitutional amendments to my fellow
Diribitors via the suffrage committee list for their consideration and
reconciliation.

Thereafter, the tallies will be in the hands of the Custodes.

=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Diribitor
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47980 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Maiori SPD.

> well if you actually had this source; why didn't you share
> it with Astur & Cordus when they wrote the reform? Why waste all
> their good efforts. When Cordus just asked on the ML for sources
> corraborating your ideas, why didn't you post them?
> I just found these articles & shared it with Cordus and
> everyone else here. If I have an argument, I don't pass it off as my
> own, rather I give it proper attribution.

I was in hospital when they were drafting their proposal and not
reading the ML.

The argument was originally Bouchet-Leclerq's and I've mentioned his
work several times. I point out again that the problem is your
unfamiliarity with the full scope of the literature on this issue, as
evidenced now by your ignorance of the history of how these arguments
developed in that literature.

> As for your unpleasant last remark. It displays your own
> character.

I'm not the one who thinks that a syncretism of a montheistic faith,
an agnostic Asian religion, and the Religio Romana is anything but an
incoherent melange. At least I try to keep my religious views
consistent. When you put forward a humourous thing, you can hardly
blame people for laughing.

> No wonder Cordus was fed up;

Since Cordus has yet to endorse your diatribes, I'll reserve judgment
as to whether you know anything at all about his views. He has my
email address and is perfectly capable of expressing himself directly.

>I'll have nothing more to do
> with this.

I have seldom had more felicitous news.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47981 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
M. Hortensia Iulio Scauro sd.
really, you've been back quite a while & could have contacted the
pontifices & told them, whilst Cordus just posted & you said
nothing.
Lol...Bouche-Leclerq's work was his dissertation thesis from
1871. I saw that old volume at the library. Whilst the famous &
modern Professor Linderski, wrote his seminal monograph "The Augural
Law" in 1986. Scholars of character & probity mention their sources.
So you either never read his work & claim you have; or you've
read it & never given him his due.
M. Hortensia Maior


which means you either have not read him, as you said, or you i
> I was in hospital when they were drafting their proposal and not
> reading the ML.
>
> The argument was originally Bouchet-Leclerq's and I've mentioned
his
> work several times. I point out again that the problem is your
> unfamiliarity with the full scope of the literature on this issue,
as
> evidenced now by your ignorance of the history of how these
arguments
> developed in that literature.
>
> > As for your unpleasant last remark. It displays your own
> > character.
>
> I'm not the one who thinks that a syncretism of a montheistic
faith,
> an agnostic Asian religion, and the Religio Romana is anything but
an
> incoherent melange. At least I try to keep my religious views
> consistent. When you put forward a humourous thing, you can hardly
> blame people for laughing.
>
> > No wonder Cordus was fed up;
>
> Since Cordus has yet to endorse your diatribes, I'll reserve
judgment
> as to whether you know anything at all about his views. He has my
> email address and is perfectly capable of expressing himself
directly.
>
> >I'll have nothing more to do
> > with this.
>
> I have seldom had more felicitous news.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47982 From: rory kirshner Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Fwd: : Regarding "Reform" of the Religio # 47946
Hortensia Iulio Scauro Quiritibusque spd;
this is Cordus' post which I snipped, but the number is there for all to read in its entirety. I leave you to be proud of the dismal record, the unhistoricity & chronic dysfunction of the CP; you've given your all.
Maior
A. Apollonius C. Julio sal.

As for the various hidden and semi-hidden
political motives and agenda which you detect, I have no knowledge
of any of them, and I don't believe Cn. Salvius has anything to do
with them. ....
. As far as I'm concerned the proposal has been duly
adopted by the collegium pontificum and is therefore binding upon
its members. The fact that its members do not seem to be taking any
notice of it is disappointing but not, I'm sorry to say, surprising
in light of the absolutely dismal record of that body to date.. But I hope it will, at least, prompt people to
ask, "why, when the chronic dysfunction and historical inaccuracy of
our public religious institutions was obvious to everyone, was it
left to these two underqualified individuals to do anything about
solving it?"





___________________________________________________________
Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to
use" – The Wall Street Journal
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

--- End forwarded message ---






---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47983 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Maiori SPD.

> really, you've been back quite a while & could have contacted the
> pontifices & told them, whilst Cordus just posted & you said
> nothing.
> Lol...Bouche-Leclerq's work was his dissertation thesis from
> 1871. I saw that old volume at the library. Whilst the famous &
> modern Professor Linderski, wrote his seminal monograph "The Augural
> Law" in 1986. Scholars of character & probity mention their sources.
> So you either never read his work & claim you have; or you've
> read it & never given him his due.

You really are the most intentionally obtuse person in Nova Roma.
Discussion of the exegesis of the passage in Cicero's letter to
Atticus has been ongoing in the scholarly literature for more than a
century. Far more scholars than Bouchet-Leclerq have commented on
this issue. Linderski's discussion of the passage isn't central to
the issues of his book and it is a convention of the discipline not to
footnote what is well-known if a specific work isn't being cited.

It says a great deal that you reject nineteenth-century scholarship
entirely, when much of it has met the test of time and is regarded as
standard because it has been accepted as nomncontroversial and correct
by the discipline's consensus. Someone who has seriously studied
these issues would not be so dismissive. Latte's more recent work
certainly did not have the scope, nor has it lasted nearly so well, as
Wissows's. To the extent that Bouchet-Leclerq has been superseded, it
has been only in discovery of additional evidence confirmatory of most
of his contentions. Look at Van Haeperen -- her book was published in
2002 and its chief contribution is reporting that more recent evidence
and confirming Bouchet-Leclerq's conclusions (she is also somewhat
more interested in the role of the regina sacrorum and vestales in the
Collegium than Bouchet-Leclerq was). That you are unaware of this is
reflective of the dilettantish approach you take.

You have never made a single substantive contribution to our
understanding of the Religio Romana. You were a disaster as a
priestess and were quite righhtly removed by the Collegium -- a
priestess of Magna Deorum Mater who insists that there will be only
vegetarian offerings in a cultus in which the principal ritual act
consisted of bathing in the blood of a sacrificed bull is an absurdity
on the face of it, and your ridicule of caerimoniae of the Religio
marked you as clearly impious. That your political friends managed to
get the Collegium's declaration that you were nefas rescinded merely
speaks for the fact that some of the powerful reward their attack dog.
You were a defender of the Collegium before it forbade you to do what
you wanted to do. You have been the Collegium's bitterest enemy
since. I recognise personally-motivated spite and revenge when I see
it, as I am certain many others do. Snipe at me as you will. I know
you for what you are.

Vale. Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47984 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-05
Subject: Re: Fwd: : Regarding "Reform" of the Religio # 47946
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus fl Cer SPD.

I would like to bring up something that is a matter of record in the
archives in case anyone has developed the idea that the unpleasant relationship
between Marca Hortensia Maior and certain members of the Collegium Pontificum is
a recent event. The CP made a decision some time ago that did not sit well
with Marca Hortensia Maior (as she is now legally known as in Nova Roma).
This may or may not be the reason why she is so strongly in favor of the
proposed reforms as they could open certain doorways that have been closed to her.
Of course, the problem could be that she finds Scaurus Pontifex pompous,
bombastic, and insulting; I know that most of us who are his colleagues do. He
does, of course, possess all those unpleasant traits to one extreme or another
(or even more) but he also has a sense of humor. The lack of the latter
trait places Marca Hortensia Maior in the same category as a radical feminist
bookshop; neither one have a humor section.

Whether or not a book was published in 1871 does not necessarily mean it has
no use now just as a modern book may have no redeeming points whatsoever.
To be honest, the majority of the material being discussed by Scaurus
Pontifex, Metellus Pontifex, and M. Hortensia Maior is somewhat over my head.

What I would point out is that if Marca Hortensia Maior would like to
contribute to the reform of the Collegium Pontificum and the Religio Romana, why
doesn't she apply for membership in one of the Sacred Colleges instead of just
picking those old nits? There may be a number of reasons for her not
applying, including the fact that she publicly accused Scaurus Pontifex of being a
traitor and a tyrant. This could lead to her having doubts of getting his
vote were she to apply to the CP, despite her lofty credentials.

I suppose some of you are wondering what I may be hinting at and why I am
being obtuse (or sarcastic or insulting or whatever) and not just giving away
the bottom line. The reason is that I want to encourage the citizens of Nova
Roma to do a little digging on their own into the archives; interview a few
priests; and learn more by doing than having it handed out like a sticky,
gooey, fudge-covered secret treat.

Think of this post as a series of subtle hints written on the walls of the
insulae in a quiet little Campanian town in August of 833 AVC. You may
discover the answer or you may get buried in pumice. If the posts keep flying
about as they have been for the last several days, there will be no shortage of
hot, noxious fumes.

Vale.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47985 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori C. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque SPD

Salvete omnes.

Marca Hortensia, Iulius Scaurus, I'm not (gasp) going to get in
between you two, but Maior, I have to point out something.

You wrote:

"Whilst the famous & modern Professor Linderski, wrote his seminal
monograph "The Augural Law" in 1986."

Ummmm....in 1986, England and France announced PLANS to build a tunnel
under the English Channel; the Soviet Union launched the Mir Space
Station; the U.S. Senate first allowed televisions in the Senate
Chamber; Geraldo Rivera opened Al Capone's vault on TV; Prince Andrew
married Fergie; Aruba got its independence; and (my favorite) a Treaty
of peace was signed between The Netherlands and the Isles of Scilly,
ending - finally - the Three Hundred and Thirty-Five Years' War - it
lasted 335 (AD 1651-1986) years without a single shot being fired,
which would make it both the world's longest war and the war with the
fewest casualties.

Also, I graduated from college.

So "modern" is a subjective word. And "newer" does not necessarily
mean "better" - just remember "New Coke"...

Valete bene,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47986 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Well, so much for research and interviewing. It looks like we went directly
to the hot, noxious fumes. I think I am going to go to the nearest caupona
and drink myself under a table.

F G A


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47987 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Catoni SPD.

"Modern" is used in two senses with regard to scholarship in the
discipline: (1) anything published post-1600, modern in
contradistinction to medieval or ancient, and (2) anything published
post-WWI, modern in contradistinction to 19th-century (after
positivism began to be a major force in historical thinking). The
latter sense is the relevant one here.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47988 From: Maior Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
M. Hortensia G. Equitio spd;
heh, heh, you are too droll. It's not my opinion at all,
sorry I thought I posted this. And include me out of this brawl;-).
God I need a martini again with some Episcopalians..!
bene vale
Marca Hortensia

Bryn Mawr Classical Review 97.2.9

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

J. Linderski, Roman Questions: Selected Papers 1958-1993.
Heidelberger althistorische Beiträge und epigraphische Studien 20.
Stuttgart: Steiner, 1995. Pp. xv + 746. ISBN 3-515-06677-2.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

Reviewed by T. Corey Brennan, Departments of Greek and Latin, Bryn
Mawr College, tbrennan@....

One rough-and-ready way to judge whether a new book on the later
Roman Republic is worth reading is to check its bibliography for
works by Jerzy Linderski, the Paddison Professor of Latin at the
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. If the book touches on
Republican politics, institutions or aspects of state or private
religion, and Linderski is not to be found, you are advised to
proceed, if at all, with extreme caution. (In the event that your
author tries to talk about auspices or augurs without Linderski,
immediately place the book in the nearest recycling bin.) But if
Linderski is cited, try to ascertain whether indeed he has been read
and understood. Should your author pass that test, you may be
reasonably confident that the new book is at least safe to handle.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...>
wrote:

> Cato M. Hortensiae Maiori C. Iulio Scauro quiritibusque SPD
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Marca Hortensia, Iulius Scaurus, I'm not (gasp) going to get in
> between you two, but Maior, I have to point out something.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Whilst the famous & modern Professor Linderski, wrote his seminal
> monograph "The Augural Law" in 1986."
>
> Ummmm....in 1986, England and France announced PLANS to build a
tunnel
> under the English Channel; the Soviet Union launched the Mir Space
> Station; the U.S. Senate first allowed televisions in the Senate
> Chamber; Geraldo Rivera opened Al Capone's vault on TV; Prince
Andrew
> married Fergie; Aruba got its independence; and (my favorite) a
Treaty
> of peace was signed between The Netherlands and the Isles of
Scilly,
> ending - finally - the Three Hundred and Thirty-Five Years' War -
it
> lasted 335 (AD 1651-1986) years without a single shot being fired,
> which would make it both the world's longest war and the war with
the
> fewest casualties.
>
> Also, I graduated from college.
>
> So "modern" is a subjective word. And "newer" does not necessarily
> mean "better" - just remember "New Coke"...
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47989 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Agricola Scauro Omnibusque S.P.D.


> When you call him, be certain to
> tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist. I'm
> sure he can use a good laugh.



This is really shameful.

Shall we presume now that the period of penitential reconciliation is
off the table? Or is Lent over and I missed it?
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47990 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Agricolae SPD.

> Shall we presume now that the period of penitential reconciliation is
> off the table? Or is Lent over and I missed it?

I've received nothing but guff from you and Maior since I proposed the
decretum. It's clear that the only peace you want is Tacitan:
sollitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

You may not have noticed, but I'm not a Christian. I don't turn the
other cheek.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47991 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Agricolae SPD.
>
> > Shall we presume now that the period of penitential reconciliation is
> > off the table? Or is Lent over and I missed it?
>
> I've received nothing but guff from you and Maior since I proposed the
> decretum. It's clear that the only peace you want is Tacitan:
> sollitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
>
> You may not have noticed, but I'm not a Christian. I don't turn the
> other cheek.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>



What you are is as clear as glass, thank you.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47992 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: a.d. VIII Id. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VIII Idus Decembris; haec dies fastus est.

"They entered upon the active duties of their office on the very day
of their election, for so had the senate decreed, and after disposing
of the business connected with their accession to office, they
proceeded at once to introduce the subject of the capitulation of
Caudium. Publilius, who was the presiding consul, called upon Spurius
Postumius to speak. He rose in his place with just the same expression
that he had worn when passing under the yoke, and began: "Consuls, I
am quite aware that I have been called upon to speak first, not
because I am foremost in honour, but because I am foremost in disgrace
and hold the position not of a senator but of a man on his trial who
has to meet the charge not only of an unsuccessful war but also of an
ignominious peace. Since, however, you have not introduced the
question of our guilt or punishment, I shall not enter upon a defence
which in the presence of men not unacquainted with the mutability of
human fortunes would not be a very difficult one to undertake. I will
state in a few words what I think about the question before us, and
you will be able to judge from what I say whether it was myself or
your legions that I spared when I pledged myself to the convention,
however shameful or however necessary it was. This convention,
however, was not made by the order of the Roman people, and therefore
the Roman people are not bound by it, nor is anything due to the
Samnites under its terms beyond our own persons. Let us be surrendered
by the fetials, stripped and bound; let us release the people from
their religious obligations if we have involved them in any, so that
without infringing any law human or divine we may resume a war which
will be justified by the law of nations and sanctioned by the gods. I
advise, that in the meantime the consuls enrol and equip an army and
lead it forth to war, but that they do not cross the hostile frontier
until all our obligations under the terms of surrender have been
discharged. And you, immortal gods, I pray and beseech, that as it was
not your will that the consuls Sp. Postumius and T. Veturius should
wage a successful war against the Samnites, you may at least deem it
enough to have witnessed us sent under the yoke and compelled to
submit to a shameful convention, enough to witness us surrendered,
naked and in chains, to the enemy, taking upon our heads the whole
weight of his anger and vengeance! May it be in accordance with your
will that the legions of Rome under fresh consuls should wage war
against the Samnites in the same way in which all wars were waged
before we were consuls!" When he finished speaking, such admiration
and pity were felt for him that they could hardly think that it was
the same Sp. Postumius who had concluded such a disgraceful peace.
They viewed with the utmost sadness the prospect of such a man
suffering at the hands of the enemy such terrible punishment as he was
sure to meet with, enraged as they would be at the rupture of the
peace. The whole House expressed in terms of the highest praise their
approval of his proposal. They were beginning to vote on the question
when two of the tribunes of the plebs, L. Livius and Q. Maelius,
entered a protest which they afterwards withdrew. They argued that the
people as a whole would not be discharged from their religious
obligation by this surrender unless the Samnites were placed in the
same position of advantage which they held at Caudium. Further, they
said they did not deserve any punishment for having saved the Roman
army by undertaking to procure peace, and they urged as a final reason
that as they, the tribunes, were sacrosanct and their persons
inviolable they could not be surrendered to the enemy or exposed to
any violence." - Livy, History of Rome 9.8


The Faunalia continues today.


Today is the feast day of Nicholas of Myra. Nicholas was a native of
the western part of what is now Asiatic Turkey. He became Bishop of
Myra in the fourth century A.D., and was imprisoned during the
persecution of the emperor Diocletian. After his release, Nicholas
attended the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325. He died December 6, 343 in
Myra.

The best-known story about Nicholas involves a man with three
unmarried daughters, and not enough money to provide them with
suitable dowries. This meant that they could not marry, and were
likely to end up as prostitutes. Nicholas walked by the man's house on
three successive nights, and each time threw a bag of gold in through
a window (or, when the story came to be told in colder climates, down
the chimney). Thus, the daughters were saved from a life of shame, and
all got married and lived happily ever after.

Another story tells of three students, traveling on their way to study
in Athens. A wicked innkeeper robbed and murdered them, hiding their
remains in a large pickling tub. It so happened that Bishop Nicholas,
traveling along the same route, stopped at this very inn. In the night
he dreamed of the crime, got up, and summoned the innkeeper. As
Nicholas prayed, the three boys were restored to life and wholeness.
In France the story is told of three small children, wandering in
their play until lost, lured, and captured by an evil butcher. St.
Nicholas appears and appeals to God to return them to life and to
their families. And so St. Nicholas is the patron and protector of
children.

Nicholas' tomb in Myra became a popular place of pilgrimage. Because
of the many wars and attacks in the region, some Christians were
concerned that access to the tomb might become difficult. For both the
religious and commercial advantages of a major pilgrimage site, the
Italian cities of Venice and Bari vied to get the Nicholas relics. In
the spring of A.D. 1087, sailors from Bari succeeded in spiriting away
the bones, bringing them to Bari, a seaport on the southeast coast of
Italy. An impressive church was built over St. Nicholas' crypt and
many faithful journeyed to honor the saint who had rescued children,
prisoners, sailors, famine victims, and many others through his
compassion, generosity, and the countless miracles attributed to his
intercession. The Nicholas shrine in Bari was one of medieval Europe's
great pilgrimage centers and Nicholas became known as "Saint in Bari."
To this day pilgrims and tourists visit Bari's great Basilica di San
Nicola.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Nicholas of Myra (www.stnicholascenter.com)
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47993 From: flavius leviticus Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [gensgaleria] Re: [Austrorientalis] Austrorientalis Provincial
Salvete Omnes,First to you Helena mater,as the leader of our Gens your being in attendence.To Flavius for helping in the arrangements and helping to make all of us so at ease.To all the citizens in this province who
attended the gathering ,I would like to extend my thanks and gratitude for making this such a wonderful event.I hope that one day soon, I may have the opportunity to meet you all once again.
Appius Galerius Aurelianus
Preafectus Regio Georgia
Semper Fidelis!


teleriferchnyfain <teleriferchnyfain@...> wrote:
Salvete omnes;

We had a wonderful little gathering in Atlanta this past weekend - the
dinner Saturday at a nice taverna in Acworth (thank you, Appius!), the
gathering after and the museum at Fernwood in Atlanta all were well
worth the trip. Even had there not been those gladiators... mmm.
Hope everyone made it back safely and I look forward to seeing all
again soon :D

Valete,

Helena mater






---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47994 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

It is precisely comments and attitudes below that beg for reform. Hortensia
didn't agree with you. She got in your way so you convinced the Collegium
Pontificum to declare her Nefas. The Senate obviously didn't agree with the
Collegium Pontificum because after her priesthood was removed and the Nefas
status declared she became a Provincial Governor. How does that look when
senators give imperium to a Nefas citizen? Removal of the Nefas status was
the just and honorable thing to do.

Contrary to what you may think of Marca Hortensia Maior she has made a
contribution to Nova Roma. She has NEVER (to my knowledge) resigned from an
office or from Nova Roma because her ego was bruised, something that not all
of us can claim. She has also maintained a consistent active involvement
in Nova Roma no matter who tries to make her life in Nova Roma miserable.

Marca Hortensia Maior and I have had our numerous battles on the main list,
she and I have at times been bitter enemies. However, taking the time to
talk to a person and work out differenes is far better than perpetuating
conflict. The Collegium Pontificum should be about empowering people in
Nova Roma who want to worship the Roman Gods, and in fostering a true sense
of Pax Deorum not some sort of fundamentalist attitude were the Collegium
Pontificum is justified simpy because we "say so."

Whatever happened to taking responsibility for the "enmity, rancour, and
animosity" that has plagued the Collegium Pontificum? As much of a
challenge as Marca Hortensia Maior can be she is still an important citizen
of Nova Roma, and as a human being we should try to come to some sort of
'accord' instead of perpetuating "enmity, rancour, and animosity."

As for the comment about Maior being an "attack dog." That would assume
that Maior takes her orders from someone, and I can assure you that she does
not take her orders from me. I have asked her to tone down her comments.
She has a will of her own, and she uses it -- often times to several peoples
frustration. Tack is something she could use more of, but to claim she is a
dog taking her orders from someone else is simply false.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/5/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> You have never made a single substantive contribution to our
> understanding of the Religio Romana. You were a disaster as a
> priestess and were quite righhtly removed by the Collegium -- a
> priestess of Magna Deorum Mater who insists that there will be only
> vegetarian offerings in a cultus in which the principal ritual act
> consisted of bathing in the blood of a sacrificed bull is an absurdity
> on the face of it, and your ridicule of caerimoniae of the Religio
> marked you as clearly impious. That your political friends managed to
> get the Collegium's declaration that you were nefas rescinded merely
> speaks for the fact that some of the powerful reward their attack dog.
> You were a defender of the Collegium before it forbade you to do what
> you wanted to do. You have been the Collegium's bitterest enemy
> since. I recognise personally-motivated spite and revenge when I see
> it, as I am certain many others do. Snipe at me as you will. I know
> you for what you are.
>
> Vale. Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47995 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

You convened the Collegium Pontificum to vote on your decretum. The
Collegium voted and you should make the results known. Just because a
couple of citizens attack the decretum doesn't give you cause to ignore it
after a vote was taken. Does this mean you no longer "recognise and deplore
the enmity, rancour, and animosity which has so long riven our efforts to
reconstruct the Religio Romana and accept responsibility for the personal
conflict...?" Its good to know that all it takes if for M. Lucretius
Agricola and Marca Hortensia Maior to oppose you and you will back down on a
vote within the Collegium Ponficum.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Agricolae SPD.
>
> > Shall we presume now that the period of penitential reconciliation is
> > off the table? Or is Lent over and I missed it?
>
> I've received nothing but guff from you and Maior since I proposed the
> decretum. It's clear that the only peace you want is Tacitan:
> sollitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
>
> You may not have noticed, but I'm not a Christian. I don't turn the
> other cheek.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47996 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

Attacking Marca Hortensia Maior on the grounds of her spiritual background
is deplorable and the reason why so many people have left Nova Roma and the
main list. Your attack on Hortensia's spiritual path is an illustration of
your ignorance of contemporary (oh no... "modernist") movements within
Judaism. There are cultural and secular Jews, and even a movement within
Feminist Judaism focusing on "Jewish Paganism." Additionally, cultural Jews
compose a large portion of the Buddhist community in the USA (ie., the term
JuBu). Furthermore, there are Buddhist traditions that are very compatible
with theism, such as the Tendai sect of Japan which incorporated aspects of
Shinto (a religious tradition very similar to the Religio Romana in many
ways). I do not speak for Marca Hortensia Maior as to her what spiritual
traditions show follows, but I think its safe to say that she is not an
Orthodox Jew, Theravada Buddhist, and Roman Reconstructionist. But
practicing a cultural form of Judaism as part of her heritage, embracing a
Buddhist faith compatible with theistic thought, and honoring the Gods of
Rome... I see no problem with that whatsoever.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/5/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Maiori SPD.
>
> > > The scholarly thing to do is actually read the entire monograph
> > > on "Augural Law" by Prof. Linderski before drawing conclusions.
> > > Additionally I would read "Roman Questions" since he is the
> > > genius on this topic & discusses pontifical law. And I can always
> > > ring him as he lives here.
>
> I've read "The Augural Law," and rather earlier than you, if you've
> read it at all, since I've subscribed to the Aufsteig und Niedergang
> der römischen Welt series since its inception. I also have the
> Linderski anthology in my library. When you call him, be certain to
> tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist. I'm
> sure he can use a good laugh.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47997 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Modiano SPD.

> You convened the Collegium Pontificum to vote on your decretum. The
> Collegium voted and you should make the results known. Just because a
> couple of citizens attack the decretum doesn't give you cause to ignore it
> after a vote was taken. Does this mean you no longer "recognise and deplore
> the enmity, rancour, and animosity which has so long riven our efforts to
> reconstruct the Religio Romana and accept responsibility for the personal
> conflict...?" Its good to know that all it takes if for M. Lucretius
> Agricola and Marca Hortensia Maior to oppose you and you will back down on
> a
> vote within the Collegium Ponficum.

Agricola and Maior have been consistent opponents of the decretum from
the moment it was proposed, going so far in Maior's case to prompt her
to call for my prosecution for treason. I see no reason not to reply
to this kind of obstructionism with the truth. I have done nothing
more than expose some of the reasons for their unwillingness to
support appealing to the Di Immortales for their intervention to
restore peace in the respublica: they are personal animus and
politics.

I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon as
the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47998 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Agricola Omnibus sal.


Just for the record, friends, here is what is called "obstructionism".
Read for yourselves and decide:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/47594

optime valete!




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> > You convened the Collegium Pontificum to vote on your decretum. The
> > Collegium voted and you should make the results known. Just because a
> > couple of citizens attack the decretum doesn't give you cause to
ignore it
> > after a vote was taken. Does this mean you no longer "recognise
and deplore
> > the enmity, rancour, and animosity which has so long riven our
efforts to
> > reconstruct the Religio Romana and accept responsibility for the
personal
> > conflict...?" Its good to know that all it takes if for M. Lucretius
> > Agricola and Marca Hortensia Maior to oppose you and you will
back down on
> > a
> > vote within the Collegium Ponficum.
>
> Agricola and Maior have been consistent opponents of the decretum from
> the moment it was proposed, going so far in Maior's case to prompt her
> to call for my prosecution for treason. I see no reason not to reply
> to this kind of obstructionism with the truth. I have done nothing
> more than expose some of the reasons for their unwillingness to
> support appealing to the Di Immortales for their intervention to
> restore peace in the respublica: they are personal animus and
> politics.
>
> I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon as
> the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 47999 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Modiano SPD.

> Attacking Marca Hortensia Maior on the grounds of her spiritual background
> is deplorable and the reason why so many people have left Nova Roma and the
> main list.

If you know of a single citizen who has left NR because Maior was
criticised, it will be the first. If anything, her constant vitriol
on the ML is more likely to have caused citizens to depart.

>Your attack on Hortensia's spiritual path is an illustration of
> your ignorance of contemporary (oh no... "modernist") movements within
> Judaism. There are cultural and secular Jews, and even a movement within
> Feminist Judaism focusing on "Jewish Paganism." Additionally, cultural Jews
> compose a large portion of the Buddhist community in the USA (ie., the term
> JuBu). Furthermore, there are Buddhist traditions that are very compatible
> with theism, such as the Tendai sect of Japan which incorporated aspects of
> Shinto (a religious tradition very similar to the Religio Romana in many
> ways). I do not speak for Marca Hortensia Maior as to her what spiritual
> traditions show follows, but I think its safe to say that she is not an
> Orthodox Jew, Theravada Buddhist, and Roman Reconstructionist. But
> practicing a cultural form of Judaism as part of her heritage, embracing a
> Buddhist faith compatible with theistic thought, and honoring the Gods of
> Rome... I see no problem with that whatsoever.

I'm not surprised you see no problem. You think it's appropriate to
be a Druid. The problem is that Maior's world-view isn't Roman. If
Judaism, Buddhism, and Druidism had been adopted as foreign cults in
Roma Antiqua you would have a point, but they weren't. In your
headlong rush to be all things to all men you have forgotten that what
the Religio Romana is about is being Roman.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48000 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

"Agricola and Maior have been consistent opponents of the decretum from the
moment it was proposed, going so far in Maior's case to prompt her to call
for my prosecution for treason. I see no reason not to reply
to this kind of obstructionism with the truth."

Agricola is an extremely active citizen in Nova Roma who has contributed a
great deal this past year. He is also a very dedicated devotee of the
Gods. I have already discussed Maior, so will not do so again. They have
voiced their opposition to your decretum. It is their right to advocate
against something in Nova Roma just as it is your right to oppose me and the
reforms I have attempted to promote.

"I have done nothing more than expose some of the reasons for their
unwillingness to support appealing to the Di Immortales for their
intervention to restore peace in the respublica: they are personal animus
and
politics."

Your behavior, at least to me, seems just as political and just as full of
personal attack as anything sent by Agricola or Maior your way. To
insinuate that you are untarnished from having personal animosity towards
Maior is simply not true, and you yourself have indicted that there is no
need to "turn the other cheek." Your decretum had political motivations by
your own admission (ie., see the discussion from this about the calling of
comitia and promises from myself not to present the Religio Reform
proposal). There is politics involved, and Agricola and Maior saw as such
and called you on it. You have done the same thing to me, but when you did
it I assume it was "truth" and when they do it they are simply being
obstructionist.

"I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me further that
only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of rabid obstructionism
and modernist politicising of the Religio in which Maior and Agricola have
engaged and bring genuine concord to Nova Roma. "

Undoubtedly the Gods play a strong role in harmony with Nova Roma. However,
it is the priesthood that has the mandate to maintain the Pax Deorum. I
seriously doubt if a lighting bolt is coming to come from Olympus and
destroy the "rabid obstructionism" and "modernism" you hate so much. To
assume that the Gods are somehow ONLY on your side, and against the likes of
Maior and Agricola, helps me to understand why some people consider you a
fundamentalist. This is a sense of dualism (us VS. them) that doesn't seem
very Roman to me. For all we know the Gods could be speaking to us through
the likes of Agricola and Maior -- not saying this is the case, just
indicating that it is a possibility.

"I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon as the Pontifex
Maximus announces the decretum's adoption."

Have you asked him to do this or are you simply assuming that he will? You
convened the Collegium Pontificum, you should make the results of the vote
known. If you feel it should be the Pontifex Maximus who does this then you
should indicate to him that you want him to do this -- either in private or
preferably on the Collegium Pontificum.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> > You convened the Collegium Pontificum to vote on your decretum. The
> > Collegium voted and you should make the results known. Just because a
> > couple of citizens attack the decretum doesn't give you cause to ignore
> it
> > after a vote was taken. Does this mean you no longer "recognise and
> deplore
> > the enmity, rancour, and animosity which has so long riven our efforts
> to
> > reconstruct the Religio Romana and accept responsibility for the
> personal
> > conflict...?" Its good to know that all it takes if for M. Lucretius
> > Agricola and Marca Hortensia Maior to oppose you and you will back down
> on
> > a
> > vote within the Collegium Ponficum.
>
> Agricola and Maior have been consistent opponents of the decretum from
> the moment it was proposed, going so far in Maior's case to prompt her
> to call for my prosecution for treason. I see no reason not to reply
> to this kind of obstructionism with the truth. I have done nothing
> more than expose some of the reasons for their unwillingness to
> support appealing to the Di Immortales for their intervention to
> restore peace in the respublica: they are personal animus and
> politics.
>
> I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon as
> the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
> .
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48001 From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Salve Agricola,

M. Lucretius Agricola wrote:
> Just for the record, friends, here is what is called "obstructionism".
> Read for yourselves and decide:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/47594

Certainly anyone who's been paying attention knows that you've done --
and encouraged others to do -- wonderful things for Nova Roma. Pay no
attention to the angry ranting of a sick old man.

Vale,

-- Marinus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48002 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Agricola Marino S.P.D.

You are far too kind, but I thank you most sincerely for your words.
It would be pure madness for me to attempt to praise *you* here,
because there is nothing I can say that would be new to anyone, or
that could do justice to *your* many contributions.

optime vale!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:
>
> Salve Agricola,
>
> M. Lucretius Agricola wrote:
> > Just for the record, friends, here is what is called "obstructionism".
> > Read for yourselves and decide:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/47594
>
> Certainly anyone who's been paying attention knows that you've done --
> and encouraged others to do -- wonderful things for Nova Roma. Pay no
> attention to the angry ranting of a sick old man.
>
> Vale,
>
> -- Marinus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48003 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
---Pompeia Minucia Strabo Gaio Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

You wrote from below:

"I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon
as
> the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption."

Pompeia: Well, I'm afraid you have backed down. Initially you
wanted 45 or so Comitia-free days and this was gradually amended on
pain of veto. Oh, Piscinus Tribunus run the dinner bell early in
his pronouncement of intercessio...but the meal was cooking and soon
to be served, wasn't it?

Then, with respect, you leave a wide parameter for speculation that
this was largely a political move, by a public request that Modianus
Consul reiterate a promise that he had no intention of promulgating
the religious reforms. That's kind of hard to effectively explain
away Pontifex...particularily when Modianus Consul had already said
on a few occasions that he wasn't going to present the reforms this
year, soon after he had withdrawn them.

I do not blame citizens in the least if they do not relish this type
of activity from their religious leaders. To reiterate my
colleague's earlier point, which I appreciate, this sort of thing is
what begs reform to a more decentralized leadership approach of the
Collegium Pontificum.

Aside from that, your decretum called for too long a period of
reconcillation of this nature, and had no Senate involvement....not
much of an historical tradition. Unusual for someone who
pontificates a strict replication of the ancient mos maiorum (the
entire continuum it seems) with respect to approaches to tending the
Pax Deorum. Moreover, the decretum initially amputated any civil
activity of comitia, which often proves necessary in unforseen
circumstances.

If you find Maior curt, Agricola curt (a rare display indeed) you
need to reexamine exactly what it is they are reacting to...then you
might understand why. I have never known you to mince words
yourself...particularily when you are challenged with an opposing
point of view.

To expand, your personal leadership style might not be welcomed by
21 Century cultores, who are here by choice, some of whom have done
scholarly reading and have formed their own educated opinions... or
have done some serious soul searching.You ran into this trouble in
2004 when you would tell people they were an insult to the Gods when
they didn't agree with you about certain elements of the
religio...animal sacrifice for one. And these are Cultores. It's
always been open season on nonpractitioners to some. Part of being a
minority. No matter how much you know, a more tempered and flexible
approach will be insisted upon by the populace, as it has been in
the past.

As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
you to run for office. As presiding magistrate, I simply wouldn't
put you on the ballot. Luckily for you, I believe in good
government..for you, for the next citizen. I do not believe in
stuffing socks in the mouths of the people because I feel like it,
and so I will let them be your judges as to the appropriateness of
your Quaestorship, based on the recent extension of your religious
authority, the unfolding and amending of which suggested a personal
political motivation rather than purely a religious gesture, plus
the 'irony' of your running for office before a comitia you
initially intended to silence. That is what I might do if I were a
strict subscriber to the mos maiorum in my attendance of the Pax
Deorum and in my duties as Consul. As it stands, I will not be
voting for you, that is for sure.





>



In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...>
wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> > You convened the Collegium Pontificum to vote on your decretum.
The
> > Collegium voted and you should make the results known. Just
because a
> > couple of citizens attack the decretum doesn't give you cause
to ignore it
> > after a vote was taken. Does this mean you no longer "recognise
and deplore
> > the enmity, rancour, and animosity which has so long riven our
efforts to
> > reconstruct the Religio Romana and accept responsibility for
the personal
> > conflict...?" Its good to know that all it takes if for M.
Lucretius
> > Agricola and Marca Hortensia Maior to oppose you and you will
back down on
> > a
> > vote within the Collegium Ponficum.
>
> Agricola and Maior have been consistent opponents of the decretum
from
> the moment it was proposed, going so far in Maior's case to prompt
her
> to call for my prosecution for treason. I see no reason not to
reply
> to this kind of obstructionism with the truth. I have done nothing
> more than expose some of the reasons for their unwillingness to
> support appealing to the Di Immortales for their intervention to
> restore peace in the respublica: they are personal animus and
> politics.
>
> I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon
as
> the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48004 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

"If anything, her constant vitriol on the ML is more likely to have caused
citizens to depart."

I know of at least two citizens who have had issues with you in the past
over your treatment of them, and or your treatment of Maior in the past. M.
Hortensia Maior DOES need to learn a thing or two about diplomacy that is
not in question, but you have contributed to the fueling the fire of
animosity between the two of you. I fought with Maior, for much longer
than you did. Eventually I made the decision to *try* to mend fences with
her, and I did. Likewise, in the summer of 2005 Pompeia Minucia Strabo and
I were not on speaking terms. However, I made the conscious decision to
work to mend fences and I did -- and now I consider her to be one of the
kindest and most sincere persons I know in Nova Roma. Reconciliation may
not be considered a Roman virtue to you, but it sure does make life more
pleasant.

"I'm not surprised you see no problem. You think it's appropriate to be a
Druid. The problem is that Maior's world-view isn't Roman. If Judaism,
Buddhism, and Druidism had been adopted as foreign cults in Roma Antiqua you
would have a point, but they weren't."

I was wondering how long it was going to take you before you started to
attack ME for my spiritual choices and beliefs. You paint yourself as being
the epitome of Romanitas, but just because you may claim Rome flows from
your pours doesn't mean that it does. Additionally, Buddhism is, in
addition to being a religion, also a philosophy as is Druidry and Masonry
(at least to some extent). Just because something wasn't introduced to the
ancient Romans doesn't mean it cannot be practiced or adopted by modern day
Nova Romans. We do not live in an antiquated SCA form of religion, were our
religious fervor is measured by wearing period costumes and speaking in
Latin, such a mentality is undoubtedly "religious role-playing." What truly
matters is whether or not the Gods are being honored. I honor them as does
Maior and Agricola. However, it would seem that according to your mentality
only your worship (and worship as conducted by people who think like you) is
pleasing to them. This, to me, seems very unRoman and religious
fundamentalism -- that which we should all fear.

"In your headlong rush to be all things to all men you have forgotten that
what the Religio Romana is about is being Roman."

Absolutely false. My religious and spiritual convictions are my own, and
are conducted not to please others but to bring myself closer to the
Divine. My thoughts and convictions are surely different from yours, but I
do not answer to you nor will I be intimidated by your words. Would a Roman
ever resign his citizenship or an office he holds? I don't know, but you
have. Does that make you unRoman? I don't know, but it does make you human
-- and all of us are that! What I see you do, far too often, is make
generalized statements that indicate that YOU have it right and everyone who
opposes you has it wrong -- and not only wrong but also "unRoman." This is
a dangerous political tool of yours, I hope the citizens of Nova Roma see
through it -- I do.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> > Attacking Marca Hortensia Maior on the grounds of her spiritual
> background
> > is deplorable and the reason why so many people have left Nova Roma and
> the
> > main list.
>
> If you know of a single citizen who has left NR because Maior was
> criticised, it will be the first. If anything, her constant vitriol
> on the ML is more likely to have caused citizens to depart.
>
> >Your attack on Hortensia's spiritual path is an illustration of
> > your ignorance of contemporary (oh no... "modernist") movements within
> > Judaism. There are cultural and secular Jews, and even a movement within
> > Feminist Judaism focusing on "Jewish Paganism." Additionally, cultural
> Jews
> > compose a large portion of the Buddhist community in the USA (ie., the
> term
> > JuBu). Furthermore, there are Buddhist traditions that are very
> compatible
> > with theism, such as the Tendai sect of Japan which incorporated aspects
> of
> > Shinto (a religious tradition very similar to the Religio Romana in many
> > ways). I do not speak for Marca Hortensia Maior as to her what spiritual
> > traditions show follows, but I think its safe to say that she is not an
> > Orthodox Jew, Theravada Buddhist, and Roman Reconstructionist. But
> > practicing a cultural form of Judaism as part of her heritage, embracing
> a
> > Buddhist faith compatible with theistic thought, and honoring the Gods
> of
> > Rome... I see no problem with that whatsoever.
>
> I'm not surprised you see no problem. You think it's appropriate to
> be a Druid. The problem is that Maior's world-view isn't Roman. If
> Judaism, Buddhism, and Druidism had been adopted as foreign cults in
> Roma Antiqua you would have a point, but they weren't. In your
> headlong rush to be all things to all men you have forgotten that what
> the Religio Romana is about is being Roman.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48005 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Election Question
Salve Consul Pompeia Minucia Strabo

"As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
you to run for office. As presiding magistrate, I simply wouldn't
put you on the ballot."

Could you please enlighten us as to what those grounds would have been?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus




----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia<mailto:pompeia_minucia_tiberia@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]


---Pompeia Minucia Strabo Gaio Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

You wrote from below:

"I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon
as
> the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption."

Pompeia: Well, I'm afraid you have backed down. Initially you
wanted 45 or so Comitia-free days and this was gradually amended on
pain of veto. Oh, Piscinus Tribunus run the dinner bell early in
his pronouncement of intercessio...but the meal was cooking and soon
to be served, wasn't it?

Then, with respect, you leave a wide parameter for speculation that
this was largely a political move, by a public request that Modianus
Consul reiterate a promise that he had no intention of promulgating
the religious reforms. That's kind of hard to effectively explain
away Pontifex...particularily when Modianus Consul had already said
on a few occasions that he wasn't going to present the reforms this
year, soon after he had withdrawn them.

I do not blame citizens in the least if they do not relish this type
of activity from their religious leaders. To reiterate my
colleague's earlier point, which I appreciate, this sort of thing is
what begs reform to a more decentralized leadership approach of the
Collegium Pontificum.

Aside from that, your decretum called for too long a period of
reconcillation of this nature, and had no Senate involvement....not
much of an historical tradition. Unusual for someone who
pontificates a strict replication of the ancient mos maiorum (the
entire continuum it seems) with respect to approaches to tending the
Pax Deorum. Moreover, the decretum initially amputated any civil
activity of comitia, which often proves necessary in unforseen
circumstances.

If you find Maior curt, Agricola curt (a rare display indeed) you
need to reexamine exactly what it is they are reacting to...then you
might understand why. I have never known you to mince words
yourself...particularily when you are challenged with an opposing
point of view.

To expand, your personal leadership style might not be welcomed by
21 Century cultores, who are here by choice, some of whom have done
scholarly reading and have formed their own educated opinions... or
have done some serious soul searching.You ran into this trouble in
2004 when you would tell people they were an insult to the Gods when
they didn't agree with you about certain elements of the
religio...animal sacrifice for one. And these are Cultores. It's
always been open season on nonpractitioners to some. Part of being a
minority. No matter how much you know, a more tempered and flexible
approach will be insisted upon by the populace, as it has been in
the past.

As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
you to run for office. As presiding magistrate, I simply wouldn't
put you on the ballot. Luckily for you, I believe in good
government..for you, for the next citizen. I do not believe in
stuffing socks in the mouths of the people because I feel like it,
and so I will let them be your judges as to the appropriateness of
your Quaestorship, based on the recent extension of your religious
authority, the unfolding and amending of which suggested a personal
political motivation rather than purely a religious gesture, plus
the 'irony' of your running for office before a comitia you
initially intended to silence. That is what I might do if I were a
strict subscriber to the mos maiorum in my attendance of the Pax
Deorum and in my duties as Consul. As it stands, I will not be
voting for you, that is for sure.

>

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...>
wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> > You convened the Collegium Pontificum to vote on your decretum.
The
> > Collegium voted and you should make the results known. Just
because a
> > couple of citizens attack the decretum doesn't give you cause
to ignore it
> > after a vote was taken. Does this mean you no longer "recognise
and deplore
> > the enmity, rancour, and animosity which has so long riven our
efforts to
> > reconstruct the Religio Romana and accept responsibility for
the personal
> > conflict...?" Its good to know that all it takes if for M.
Lucretius
> > Agricola and Marca Hortensia Maior to oppose you and you will
back down on
> > a
> > vote within the Collegium Ponficum.
>
> Agricola and Maior have been consistent opponents of the decretum
from
> the moment it was proposed, going so far in Maior's case to prompt
her
> to call for my prosecution for treason. I see no reason not to
reply
> to this kind of obstructionism with the truth. I have done nothing
> more than expose some of the reasons for their unwillingness to
> support appealing to the Di Immortales for their intervention to
> restore peace in the respublica: they are personal animus and
> politics.
>
> I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon
as
> the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48006 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
I am not entirely certain that her status as Nefas should have been removed.
I seem to recall something in the archives that mentioned L. Sicinius
Drusus gave his proxy to Scaurus or someone else, but it was not counted in the
vote. Since I wasn't a party to the original issues, I really cannot take
sides on something that happened before I became a member of the CP.

What is really troubling me is that this list is dominated at the moment by
the M. Hortensia Maior discussion and the reform question but we are not
discussing the calendar nor or we discussing doing anything about spreading
knowledge of the correct ritual practices of the privata and publica.

The New Year is less than 25 days away and we have not finalized the
calendar of public ludi, festivals, and movable feriae to present to the Consuls.
This is in our job description and is a required part of both Nova Roma and
historic practice of Old Rome. I don't understand why all of you
traditionalists aren't jumping all over yourselfs to fine tune it.

Why are we discussing Marca Hortensia Maior? She is a pain in the tuckus
and the bane of several people's existence but she is only a minor problem to
this body. Are we going to do anything concrete or are we just going to
yak-yak-yak. We cannot even fill the offices we currently have because of a lack
of basic framework for the purpose of instruction and yet the reform is a top
priority.

Aureliane




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48007 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Modiano SPD.

> Your behavior, at least to me, seems just as political and just as full of
> personal attack as anything sent by Agricola or Maior your way. To
> insinuate that you are untarnished from having personal animosity towards
> Maior is simply not true, and you yourself have indicted that there is no
> need to "turn the other cheek." Your decretum had political motivations by
> your own admission (ie., see the discussion from this about the calling of
> comitia and promises from myself not to present the Religio Reform
> proposal). There is politics involved, and Agricola and Maior saw as such
> and called you on it. You have done the same thing to me, but when you did
> it I assume it was "truth" and when they do it they are simply being
> obstructionist.

I have never denied that I dislike Maior. I tend not to like impety
in general. But what is pertinent here is a disagreement over matters
of principle, not personalities. I furthermore do not see opposition
to politicising the Religio as political in the sense you imply. I
would prefer to see the threats to take matters pertaining to the
Religio to Comitia dropped and the matter resolved inm the Collegium,
where it should be under the NR constitution. I was not the one who
made these issues political; in fact, I have consistently opposed
politicising them. Maior and Agricola chose to ignore this and to
ignore that the decretum was motivated by desperation that nothing
short of intervention of the Gods will strong politicisation of the
Religio in NR. I have trouble believing that that choice was not
deliberate.

> "I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me further
> that
> only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of rabid obstructionism
> and modernist politicising of the Religio in which Maior and Agricola have
> engaged and bring genuine concord to Nova Roma. "
>
> Undoubtedly the Gods play a strong role in harmony with Nova Roma. However,
> it is the priesthood that has the mandate to maintain the Pax Deorum. I
> seriously doubt if a lighting bolt is coming to come from Olympus and
> destroy the "rabid obstructionism" and "modernism" you hate so much. To
> assume that the Gods are somehow ONLY on your side, and against the likes
> of
> Maior and Agricola, helps me to understand why some people consider you a
> fundamentalist. This is a sense of dualism (us VS. them) that doesn't seem
> very Roman to me. For all we know the Gods could be speaking to us through
> the likes of Agricola and Maior -- not saying this is the case, just
> indicating that it is a possibility.

You are becoming as much an exaggerator as Maior is. No one mentioned
thunderbolts from Olympus, although I can hope that the changing of
hearts is something the Di Immortales would consider. If I am wrong
in my understanding of the Religio, then I pray that the Gods set me
aright. I confess that I have trouble believing that the Di
Immortales look favourably on distorting the ancient cultus to meet
the prejudices of moderns and, therefore, hope that they look more
favourably on those who want the ancient cultus reconsructed as
accurately as possible. If that is fundamentalism, then you have an
odd notion of fundamentalism. I stand for the principle "Worship the
Gods as the Romans did." Maior anmd Agricola, and apparently you,
reject this principle. That makes us opponents, but it hardly makes
me a fundamentalist in any sense (have a look at Talcott Parsons, from
whom the concept of fundamentalism arose).

> "I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon as the Pontifex
> Maximus announces the decretum's adoption."
>
> Have you asked him to do this or are you simply assuming that he will? You
> convened the Collegium Pontificum, you should make the results of the vote
> known. If you feel it should be the Pontifex Maximus who does this then you
> should indicate to him that you want him to do this -- either in private or
> preferably on the Collegium Pontificum.

Of course I've written to M. Cassius. If I don't have a reply by
tomorrow evening, I'll call him. Apparently you aren't familiar with
the Decretum de ratione Collegii Pontificum which requires by law that
the Pontifex Maximus make the announcement:

IV. Once voting on the matters at hand is complete, the Pontifex
Maximus shall inform the people of the outcome of the vote and shall
officially end the meeting of the collegium.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48008 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Modiano SPD.

I find it interesting that Maior can rail against anyone she pleases
for weeks on end without your saying a public word, but all it takes
is my responding to bring a consul into the fray. You behaviour
belies your claims of objectivity, but I grant that it is very Roman
to defend one's client.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48009 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-06
Subject: To the Praetores
Fl. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.

Dii Immortales have very little to do with the sort of argument that the
general membership is seeing right now from members of its alleged "sacred and
secular leadership."

This is definitely part of the reason why Nova Roma is losing citizens
although it is not the only one. I very much believe that the decretum that was
recently passed is a complete waste of time because I have seen absolutely no
sign of the flamen of Quirinus has been attending to restoring the Pax Deorum.

I suggest to the Praetores that they ask the following individuals to
refrain from posting any more discussion concerning the reform of the CP, the
decretum, or each other until Saturnalia begins in the hope that we can have a
little goodwill towards each other for a few days:

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
M. Hortensia Maior
C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
C. Iulius Scaurus
& anyone else who wants to chime in on these shenanigans.

Vadite in pace Cereris.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48010 From: Q. Caecilius Metellus Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Q. Caecilius Metellus C. Iulio Scauro salutem.

>> I also want to point out that the text does not mention how "ex
>> auctoritate collegi patribus renuntiasset". We could assume it was done
>> in some official matter (e.g., the pontiffs issuing some decree to that
>> effect, on which the Senate then reacted, on which the pontiffs again
>> acted); it is also just as feasible from the text that those pontifices
>> who were within the Senate mentioned it during a meeting; it is just as
>> feasible that a member of the College was a magistrate with the ius
>> agendi, and it was brought that way. The text is imprecise here, and
>> making an assumption here could lead us into less secure waters than are
>> necessary.
>
> From what we know of the fasti there appears to have been no sitting
> magistrate in Collegium at the time, although we cannot guarantee that
> they are complete. My point about the "ex auctoritate collegii" is
> that the Collegium made a determination of sacral law on its own
> authority, then took the matter to the Senate for civil action. How
> the matter was precisely laid before the Senate we do not know.

Indeed, it would be helpful to us all if we had complete fasti; but that
is, of course, beside the point for now. Your point on the fact that
things were done "ex auctoritate collegi" is certainly, though, valid.
I also thank you for agreeing that we aren't sure exactly how the matter
was brought to the Senate. This may be a matter for speculation later,
but for now, we certainly should let the text stand as it does.

Gratias plurimas tibi, Collega Scaure.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48011 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Scaurus Pompeiae Minuciae Straboni SPD.

> "I have not backed down a whit. This exchange only convinces me
> > further that only the Di Immortales can put an end to the sort of
> > rabid obstructionism and modernist politicising of the Religio in
> > which Maior and Agricola have engaged and bring genuine concord to
> > Nova Roma. I stand ready to begin the required offerings as soon
> as
> > the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption."
>
> Pompeia: Well, I'm afraid you have backed down. Initially you
> wanted 45 or so Comitia-free days and this was gradually amended on
> pain of veto. Oh, Piscinus Tribunus run the dinner bell early in
> his pronouncement of intercessio...but the meal was cooking and soon
> to be served, wasn't it?

So, I am a fundmentalist when I refuse to compromise with your faction
and lack the courage of my convictions when I agree to compromise with
your faction? Convenient the way you play with contradictions.

> Then, with respect, you leave a wide parameter for speculation that
> this was largely a political move, by a public request that Modianus
> Consul reiterate a promise that he had no intention of promulgating
> the religious reforms. That's kind of hard to effectively explain
> away Pontifex...particularily when Modianus Consul had already said
> on a few occasions that he wasn't going to present the reforms this
> year, soon after he had withdrawn them.

I responded to a concern expressed to me by the Pontifex Maximus after
the decretum was put forward. There is no other explanation
necessary, because that is the reason.

> To expand, your personal leadership style might not be welcomed by
> 21 Century cultores, who are here by choice, some of whom have done
> scholarly reading and have formed their own educated opinions... or
> have done some serious soul searching.You ran into this trouble in
> 2004 when you would tell people they were an insult to the Gods when
> they didn't agree with you about certain elements of the
> religio...animal sacrifice for one. And these are Cultores. It's
> always been open season on nonpractitioners to some. Part of being a
> minority. No matter how much you know, a more tempered and flexible
> approach will be insisted upon by the populace, as it has been in
> the past.

The decretum on animal sacrifices adopted by the Collegium was well
received by the overwhelming majority of citizens; it permitted animal
sacrifice, but did not require it. Only a handful of citizens
objected.

> As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
> would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
> you to run for office. As presiding magistrate, I simply wouldn't
> put you on the ballot.

If you adhered strictly to the mos maiorum, you wouldn't be consul. I
am not advocating restricting officeholding to males but that was the
mos maiorum. You're in no position to strictly ahere to the mos
maiorum unless you resign. Let's not pretend that you have any
intention of strictly adhering to the mos maiorum.

>Luckily for you, I believe in good
> government..for you, for the next citizen. I do not believe in
> stuffing socks in the mouths of the people because I feel like it,
> and so I will let them be your judges as to the appropriateness of
> your Quaestorship, based on the recent extension of your religious
> authority, the unfolding and amending of which suggested a personal
> political motivation rather than purely a religious gesture, plus
> the 'irony' of your running for office before a comitia you
> initially intended to silence. That is what I might do if I were a
> strict subscriber to the mos maiorum in my attendance of the Pax
> Deorum and in my duties as Consul. As it stands, I will not be
> voting for you, that is for sure.

I am not so much a fool as to ever have expected to get your vote.
You have no idea what my intentions were or are. As I've told you
before, I'd take it as a kindness if you didn't try to read my mind.
You are really dreadful at it.

And once again, I point out how interesting it is that Maior can rail
at the main list endlessly without a public word from the consuls, but
all I need to do is respond to Maior and the consuls deploy to
announce what a wretched thing I am. As I told Modianus, I applaud
your Romanitas in rising to the defence of your client.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48012 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus quiritibus SPD.

I have proposed the following to the Collegium Pontificum on the
matter of organisation of colleges. I hope that crystallising the
approaches by serious thought and preparation of position papers will
allow for a systematic debate and resolution of the matter by the
Collegium.
_____________________________
Scaurus pontificibus SPD.

I think that it is unuseful to toss ideas off the top of our heads on
an issue as complex and important as the organisation of the sacred
colleges.

I propose that each pontifex, and any flamines or vestales who choose
to do so, take the next month and half to do research, reflect
carefully, and think systematically about this issue and write a
position paper outlining what changes should be adopted. We can
present these position papers at the end of January, debate them,
craft a decretum, and resolve the matter then when we have all devoted
the appropriate time, research, and reflection to the issue. Lets do
this in a serious and systematic fashion.

Valete.

Scaurus
_____________________________

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48013 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

[SNIP]

>Are we going to do anything concrete or are we just going to
> yak-yak-yak.

Salve Aureliane,

I just spent the morning moving articles from the web site to the wiki
here: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Ritus

Let's work together to get the grammar fixed, links made, citations
entered and everything else that needs doing.

I renew my call for citizens to upload lararium photos to the lararium
article. We also need pictures of paterae, lucernae and all the rest
for those respective articles.

optime vale

Agricola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48014 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Aureliano SPD.

As soon as the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption, I
shall begin performing the required caerimoniae. I cannot do so until
he fulfills that legal obligation. As soon as you and Metellus Pius
have a formal calendrical decretum for next year ready for the
Collegium's approval, I would happy to convene the Collegium and move
its adoption. I am working on translation of all the extant fragments
of the Libri Augurales to provide the foundation for an NR Liber
Auguralis. I am working on a translation of Van Haeperen's Le College
Pontificale for the Collegium. And I'll be writing my position paper
on the sacred colleges as soon as my Christmas break begins. If there
is anything more I can fit in my schedule, I'd be happy to take
suggestions as to what to do next.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48015 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
M. Lucretius Agricola Omnibus S.P.D.

I write, as I often have, mainly for the benefit of newcomers, so that
false impressions are not made that might persuade good people that
this is an intolerant place.

The particular message that caused reaction from the Consules, and
indeed from myself, was this one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/47977 "...be certain
to tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist. I'm
sure he can use a good laugh", wherein a rule we have against the
ridicule of the beliefs of anyone was violated. The author of that
note is a person of position, a Pontifex, so it was proper that public
comment be made.

When newcomers, or ordinary citizens make such a statement, which
happens rarely, it is my habit, and that of others, I know, to write
in private. When it is done by someone who represents one of our most
cherished institutions, public comment is needed lest anyone think
that this is the sort of place that permits this sort of low attack.

People make mistakes, and people write in passion. Such is human. It
is fitting that when this sort of blunder happens that the person
accept blame, even make apology. When the person holds high rank, it
is also fitting that repudiation be public, so that a proper example
is set, and that others may know that such slips, although perhaps
part of human nature, are not welcome.

To repeat, it was the public message "...be certain to
tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist. I'm
sure he can use a good laugh." that drew comment. That particular sort
of comment is nearly unheard of, even here, where language sometimes
gets rough.

Anyone who says, as the Pontifex said, "...be certain to
tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman Reconstructionist. I'm
sure he can use a good laugh", or any such words to anyone here will
get a public finger of shame from me, and I hope from others,
regardless of who says it.

So friends and citizens, if you take away nothing else, take away
this, "be certain to tell him that you're a Jewish-Buddhist-Roman
Reconstructionist. I'm sure he can use a good laugh" is not the sort
of thing that gets approval here, even when it is said by a Pontifex.

optime valete in pace deorum!




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:

[SNIP]

>
> And once again, I point out how interesting it is that Maior can rail
> at the main list endlessly without a public word from the consuls, but
> all I need to do is respond to Maior and the consuls deploy to
> announce what a wretched thing I am. As I told Modianus, I applaud
> your Romanitas in rising to the defence of your client.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48016 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Scaurus Agricolae SPD.

If you are intent on warning newcomers, you might point out that there
are some citizens with very screwy notions of what is compatible with
the Religio Romana. I point out that I have said no more than Maior
herself has on this list:

Message #44769 of 47979 Marca Hortensia Maior
...And as I am tired of saying I'm probably the only active Jewish
civis in Nova Roma, so I really would know"…;-

Message #44064 of 47979 Marca Hortensia Maior

...I actually had a bit of a surprising wake-up as I met some local
pagan/druids & really was rather shocked by their Rablelaisian
lifestyle and attitudes. I'd thought since I subscribed to Buddhist
beliefs that easily translated to polytheist as well. But it just is
not so. So though I like doing research on the Religio I must in all
honesty say that my values are philosophical and in tune with any
Christian, Jewish, Pythagorean, Atheist Nova Roman of similar values!
And yes, I've had lots of clerical friends & love an all-out
discussion:)

She admits that her Buddhist beliefs are incompatible with polytheism.
Judaism, unless it is regarded as purely an ethnicity, is also
incompatible with polytheism. A world-view "in tune" with atheism is
hardly consistent with a self-proclaimed belief in the Di Immortales.
Furthermore, neither Judaism not Buddhism were ever foreign cults of
the Religio Romana. I find it laughable that any thinking person
would imagine that these religions were compatible with the Religio.
Syncretism in the ancient would was more systematic and coherent than
the modern "selrect one from column and another from column B"
approach which Maior takes toward religion.

Maior can believe in any modern religion she pleases and be a citizen
of NR. That is not at issue.

But she can't claim to adhere to the Religio Romana and profess
religious beliefs inconsistent with the Religio without my pointing
out the incoherence.

By the way, shall I repost my original post or do you want to continue doing it?

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48017 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Agricola Scauro S.P.D.

Well, I think it is obvious that there are screwy notions here, but
that is the nature of any open forum. Mostly people know them when
they see them. But whatever we think, we are not allowed to make
public ridicule of the beliefs of others. That is the nature of this
forum.

I suppose you either think you didn't insult another's beliefs or you
think that you did but you had the right to do so, or maybe you think
something else entirely. You posted something that people found
shocking and they (and I) said so, but that too is the nature of an
open forum.

A nice place to welcome newcomers is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newroman/ ; it is a group set up just
for that purpose. It is carefully moderated, so insults of *any* kind
are disallowed there. As I periodically do, I now mention this group
as a safe place for newcomers of all sorts to ask questions or engage
in discussions.

Now Saturnalia is coming, and the new year, so I think we all have far
better and more interesting things to do.

optime vale!




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Agricolae SPD.
>
> If you are intent on warning newcomers, you might point out that there
> are some citizens with very screwy notions of what is compatible with
> the Religio Romana. I point out that I have said no more than Maior
> herself has on this list:
>
> Message #44769 of 47979 Marca Hortensia Maior
> ...And as I am tired of saying I'm probably the only active Jewish
> civis in Nova Roma, so I really would know"Â…;-
>
> Message #44064 of 47979 Marca Hortensia Maior
>
> ...I actually had a bit of a surprising wake-up as I met some local
> pagan/druids & really was rather shocked by their Rablelaisian
> lifestyle and attitudes. I'd thought since I subscribed to Buddhist
> beliefs that easily translated to polytheist as well. But it just is
> not so. So though I like doing research on the Religio I must in all
> honesty say that my values are philosophical and in tune with any
> Christian, Jewish, Pythagorean, Atheist Nova Roman of similar values!
> And yes, I've had lots of clerical friends & love an all-out
> discussion:)
>
> She admits that her Buddhist beliefs are incompatible with polytheism.
> Judaism, unless it is regarded as purely an ethnicity, is also
> incompatible with polytheism. A world-view "in tune" with atheism is
> hardly consistent with a self-proclaimed belief in the Di Immortales.
> Furthermore, neither Judaism not Buddhism were ever foreign cults of
> the Religio Romana. I find it laughable that any thinking person
> would imagine that these religions were compatible with the Religio.
> Syncretism in the ancient would was more systematic and coherent than
> the modern "selrect one from column and another from column B"
> approach which Maior takes toward religion.
>
> Maior can believe in any modern religion she pleases and be a citizen
> of NR. That is not at issue.
>
> But she can't claim to adhere to the Religio Romana and profess
> religious beliefs inconsistent with the Religio without my pointing
> out the incoherence.
>
> By the way, shall I repost my original post or do you want to
continue doing it?
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48018 From: Volentia Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Calendar Discount - Going, Going...
(I sent this about twelve hours ago and it hasn’t appeared yet, so I’m trying again. If it appears twice now, I apologize for the redundancy.)

Salvete omnes!

The calendars have arrived, and they are even niftier in person than they look on the website. Paid-up customers of mine should start watching their mailboxes.

There is a grand total of ONE (1) calendar left at the incredible discount price of $16 to Yanks and $17 to Canadian and Mexican citizens (noncitizens of Nova Roma please pay $1.50 for s&h). Order at: tellure AT earthlink DOT net. If you’re second in line, you will have lost your chance at the discount. Of course, you can always order direct from Saturninus at full price: http://www.insulaumbra.com/calendar/

That is, there is only one left; BUT--

A few cives who reserved their calendars several weeks ago still have not paid. (If you are paying by check, I am not talking to you; I assume it is in the mail. If you only reserved your calendar within the last few days, I am not talking to you either. And if you are a civis of my provincia who has made arrangements to pick up your calendar at our next meeting, I am also not talking to you.) Those of you to whom I *am* talking, please either send payment so I can mail you your calendar, or, if you have changed your mind, let me know so I can release your reserved calendars to some new, lucky customers.

Cordus wrote on Nov. 19 (ellipsis = snip):

>There has been some discussion ... of introducing some sort of "period of peace and reflection".... the Romans have, as usual, had this idea already.... We ought to start by observing the ones we have....

To which Volentia adds:

And it would help you immensely if you had a calendar for convenient reference.

Vale!
Volentia, Calendar Girl
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48019 From: mutundehre Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Salve Agricola,

as a newcomer I have watched very closely the discussion on the
Religio Romana and I have to agree with Scaurus. The Relegio Romana
in the sense of its origin was one reason – if not the most
important reason – for myself and hopefully many others to join Nova
Roma.

Worship the Gods as the Romans did in Roma Antiqua!

Vale optime et Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
Titus Flavius Aquila from the Provinciae Germania




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lucretius Agricola"
<wm_hogue@...> wrote:
>
> Agricola Scauro S.P.D.
>
> Well, I think it is obvious that there are screwy notions here, but
> that is the nature of any open forum. Mostly people know them when
> they see them. But whatever we think, we are not allowed to make
> public ridicule of the beliefs of others. That is the nature of
this
> forum.
>
> I suppose you either think you didn't insult another's beliefs or
you
> think that you did but you had the right to do so, or maybe you
think
> something else entirely. You posted something that people found
> shocking and they (and I) said so, but that too is the nature of an
> open forum.
>
> A nice place to welcome newcomers is
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newroman/ ; it is a group set up just
> for that purpose. It is carefully moderated, so insults of *any*
kind
> are disallowed there. As I periodically do, I now mention this
group
> as a safe place for newcomers of all sorts to ask questions or
engage
> in discussions.
>
> Now Saturnalia is coming, and the new year, so I think we all have
far
> better and more interesting things to do.
>
> optime vale!
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@>
wrote:
> >
> > Scaurus Agricolae SPD.
> >
> > If you are intent on warning newcomers, you might point out that
there
> > are some citizens with very screwy notions of what is compatible
with
> > the Religio Romana. I point out that I have said no more than
Maior
> > herself has on this list:
> >
> > Message #44769 of 47979 Marca Hortensia Maior
> > ...And as I am tired of saying I'm probably the only active
Jewish
> > civis in Nova Roma, so I really would know"Â…;-
> >
> > Message #44064 of 47979 Marca Hortensia Maior
> >
> > ...I actually had a bit of a surprising wake-up as I met some
local
> > pagan/druids & really was rather shocked by their Rablelaisian
> > lifestyle and attitudes. I'd thought since I subscribed to
Buddhist
> > beliefs that easily translated to polytheist as well. But it
just is
> > not so. So though I like doing research on the Religio I must in
all
> > honesty say that my values are philosophical and in tune with any
> > Christian, Jewish, Pythagorean, Atheist Nova Roman of similar
values!
> > And yes, I've had lots of clerical friends & love an all-out
> > discussion:)
> >
> > She admits that her Buddhist beliefs are incompatible with
polytheism.
> > Judaism, unless it is regarded as purely an ethnicity, is also
> > incompatible with polytheism. A world-view "in tune" with
atheism is
> > hardly consistent with a self-proclaimed belief in the Di
Immortales.
> > Furthermore, neither Judaism not Buddhism were ever foreign
cults of
> > the Religio Romana. I find it laughable that any thinking person
> > would imagine that these religions were compatible with the
Religio.
> > Syncretism in the ancient would was more systematic and coherent
than
> > the modern "selrect one from column and another from column B"
> > approach which Maior takes toward religion.
> >
> > Maior can believe in any modern religion she pleases and be a
citizen
> > of NR. That is not at issue.
> >
> > But she can't claim to adhere to the Religio Romana and profess
> > religious beliefs inconsistent with the Religio without my
pointing
> > out the incoherence.
> >
> > By the way, shall I repost my original post or do you want to
> continue doing it?
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > Scaurus
> >
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48020 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
In a message dated 12/7/2006 1:29:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, Qfabiusmaxmi
writes:

You know, I'm sorry, but after reading this I have to lodge an objection.
The 21st century "cultores" have no business here at all. This was never
about 21st century "cultores." It was restoring the religio of the Roman
Republic. There was no century/timeline mentioned. And I know from personal
interviews that none was intended.
The state exists because the public religio needs it. Many are here because
of the state alone, which means they are ignorant of the religio, and unaware
of its importance to the Republic.

To expand, your personal leadership style might not be welcomed by
21 Century cultores, who are here by choice, some of whom have done
scholarly reading and have formed their own educated opinions... or
have done some serious soul searching.You ran into this trouble in
2004 when you would tell people they were an insult to the Gods when
they didn't agree with you about certain elements of the
religio...animal sacrifice for one.

Ah yes. I wondered how long before that objection was raised. And the
people who objected were non practitioners, so your point is moot. Either we are
here to reconstruct the religio or we are not. Having non practitioners tell
the religio reconstructors what they want seen done, on the face of it is more
then ridiculous.

What do you guys do? Sit around at home and think these objections/things up
together?

And these are Cultores. It's always been open season on nonpractitioners to
some. Part of being a minority.
Well, if you think that "nonpractitioners" are in the minority here, you
haven't been reading your own reports.

No matter how much you know, a more tempered and flexible
approach will be insisted upon by the populace, as it has been in
the past.

HA HA HA. The only moderate, tempered and flexible approach here is made by
people here who wish to stay in power. And its a sham and illusion anyway.
It does the Republic no good but they get to think they are controlling things.

As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
you to run for office.

Really? On what basis? Failure to live up to the modernist code?

As presiding magistrate, I simply wouldn't put you on the ballot.

And you'd be prosecuted for vis under the Lex Salica as soon as you were out
of office.

Luckily for you, I believe in good
government..for you, for the next citizen. I do not believe in
stuffing socks in the mouths of the people because I feel like it, and so I
will let them be your judges as to the appropriateness of
your Quaestorship, based on the recent extension of your religious
authority, the unfolding and amending of which suggested a personal
political motivation rather than purely a religious gesture, plus
the 'irony' of your running for office before a comitia you
initially intended to silence. That is what I might do if I were a
strict subscriber to the mos maiorum in my attendance of the Pax
Deorum and in my duties as Consul. As it stands, I will not be
voting for you, that is for sure.
Consul, you wouldn't know the mos maiorum if you tripped over it in the dark.
Do you even know what it means?

I'm sure that if the people can elect you, a quitter who resigned her offices
under duress when Roma needed her the most, they will be willing to put into
office a scholar who reads both classical languages and has forgotten more
about Roman things then you probably have learned. I'm not saying the above to
be rhetorical, I'm saying it because it is true.

If you are going carry out character assassination, make sure your house is
in order first.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48021 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
In a message dated 12/6/2006 11:21:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wm_hogue@... writes:
Mostly people know them when
they see them. But whatever we think, we are not allowed to make
public ridicule of the beliefs of others. That is the nature of this
forum.
And I agree with that. But consider, when we have a belief like National
Socialism apparently its OK. The heinous nature of the offense in fact
encouraged it. Face it we have a double standard here. But I don't see the point of
coddling the citizens. Romans loved gossip and they loved political intrigue.
If one wants to experience being Roman, these two have to be daily staples.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48022 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
I, for one, take your point, Senator, and I can only say that we have
the rule about not belittling religions, but we don't have one against
belittling Nazis. You are right that it is a double standard, but it
is the one we have all agreed to. I think there was debate about this
when that was the hot issue, but nothing has changed.

For some reason, your replies are coming without the original message
being marked, and that makes it difficult to read. I'm sure there is a
setting you can change in your mail program, if you so desire.

optime vale!

Agricola


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/6/2006 11:21:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> wm_hogue@... writes:
> Mostly people know them when
> they see them. But whatever we think, we are not allowed to make
> public ridicule of the beliefs of others. That is the nature of this
> forum.
> And I agree with that. But consider, when we have a belief like
National
> Socialism apparently its OK. The heinous nature of the offense in fact
> encouraged it. Face it we have a double standard here. But I don't
see the point of
> coddling the citizens. Romans loved gossip and they loved political
intrigue.
> If one wants to experience being Roman, these two have to be daily
staples.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48023 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Scaurus Agricolae SPD.

It may mean little to you, but I was not belittling Judaism or
Buddhism in remarks about Maior's modern syncretism. I was belittling
the idea that they are compatible with the Religio Romana as if they
were sacra peregrina. They are their own great religious traditions,
not Rome's, and it belittles them considerably to think that they can
attached as appurtenances to the Religio Romana. Devout Jews regard
the Religio Romana as avodah zarah (literally the Religio Romana as
avodah zarah -- it's a Talmudic principle from the imperial period).
Buddhism is agnostic about deities and is utterly foreign to Rome and
Roman culture. What is so difficult to understand about my thinking
that trying to conjoin Judaism, Buddhism, and the Religio Romana
insults all three religions because it does not respect what is unique
in each? The great vice of modern spirituality is the pernicious
notion that religions which are great models of systematic theology on
their own, which are based on mutually exclusive principles, can be
blended. I think this approach gravely disrespects all religions.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48024 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aureliano salutem dicit

I appreciate your desire to promote peace and harmony in Nova Roma.
However, a Praetor is not going to silence this Consul from speaking his
mind and promoting what he feels is the greater good. At this point I am
less concerned with any Religio Reform package than I am with our
pontificies treating people with some dignity and respect.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/6/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
>
> Dii Immortales have very little to do with the sort of argument that the
> general membership is seeing right now from members of its alleged "sacred
> and
> secular leadership."
>
> This is definitely part of the reason why Nova Roma is losing citizens
> although it is not the only one. I very much believe that the decretum
> that was
> recently passed is a complete waste of time because I have seen absolutely
> no
> sign of the flamen of Quirinus has been attending to restoring the Pax
> Deorum.
>
> I suggest to the Praetores that they ask the following individuals to
> refrain from posting any more discussion concerning the reform of the CP,
> the
> decretum, or each other until Saturnalia begins in the hope that we can
> have a
> little goodwill towards each other for a few days:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> M. Hortensia Maior
> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> C. Iulius Scaurus
> & anyone else who wants to chime in on these shenanigans.
>
> Vadite in pace Cereris.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48025 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Aureliano salutem dicit

Comments like the one below do not motivate me to action. They only
continue to upset me further. Marca Hortensia Maior, as I have said, can be
a challenge in your manner of communication with citizens here -- and I have
told her as such -- however she is a citizen that has contributed
significantly to Nova Roma and to dismiss her simply because she is a pain
in your tuckus and the bane of your existence doesn't mean she is a pain in
the tuckus of others. You have been a pain in my "tuckus" on more than one
occassion, but I wouldn't think about announcing such on the main list --
save for now to make a point.

All the things you indicated are important, but they do not represent the
totality of what is important.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
>
> Why are we discussing Marca Hortensia Maior? She is a pain in the tuckus
>
> and the bane of several people's existence but she is only a minor problem
> to
> this body. Are we going to do anything concrete or are we just going to
> yak-yak-yak. We cannot even fill the offices we currently have because of
> a lack
> of basic framework for the purpose of instruction and yet the reform is a
> top
> priority.
>
> Aureliane
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48026 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

So now Marca Hortensia Maior is my client. That's news to me, but nothing I
interject will change your mind so there is no use in my attempting to do
so. I will say that I find it interesting that you come back to Nova Roma
and start back up with your antics of preaching "reconciliation" yet display
a mannerism contray to such -- all the while bringing discord with your
fundamentalist approach to the Religio Romana. This is why I am posting
because I believe your approach to Roman Religion to be full of hate and I
do not share this with you so I speak out against it. Anyone whom you do
not agree with is "unRoman," a "modernist," or doesn't get it right. The
senate should just appoint you dictator so you can teach us all how to be
Roman and we can all bow to your greatness.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> I find it interesting that Maior can rail against anyone she pleases
> for weeks on end without your saying a public word, but all it takes
> is my responding to bring a consul into the fray. You behaviour
> belies your claims of objectivity, but I grant that it is very Roman
> to defend one's client.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48027 From: Diana Aventina Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Temple of Venus
Salvete all,

I've recently out my Temple of Venus website back online.I was using the
free domains from .th but sometimes the redirect didn't work. So the new
website address is

http://www.omniavincitamor.org
Please stop by and leave a message in the guestbook. Venus is getting
lonely!!

Valete,
Diana Octavia Aventina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48028 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Scauro salutem dicit

I thought Maior was my client? Can she be the client of more than one
person? Or maybe Pompeia is my client also, or maybe I'm her client. Since
you are the client of Q. Fabius Maximus I guess we are even, by your own
admission QFM "brought you back," and now you are his "attack dog." A
couple of years ago you could have been Consul, now you are the attack dog
of a man who only commands nine centuries in a Censoral bid.... still better
than another potential client of his who only commands one century. I know
all about factions, and the only you hail from.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am not so much a fool as to ever have expected to get your vote.
> You have no idea what my intentions were or are. As I've told you
> before, I'd take it as a kindness if you didn't try to read my mind.
> You are really dreadful at it.
>
> And once again, I point out how interesting it is that Maior can rail
> at the main list endlessly without a public word from the consuls, but
> all I need to do is respond to Maior and the consuls deploy to
> announce what a wretched thing I am. As I told Modianus, I applaud
> your Romanitas in rising to the defence of your client.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48029 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Q. Fabio Maximo salutem dicit

The man you champion so much is also a quitter. How many times has Scaurus
left Nova Roma (and as Aedile), only to come back at the last minute (ie.,
before the nine days) to the sighs of many who were afraid he would actually
leave us! What about Laenas, he resigned as Tribune... yet came back, and
he had your endorsement when he ran for Consul. In the past I too have been
critical of Pompeia and her resignation. However, she did come back to
active involvement in Nova Roma and has worked to repair her reputation and
I believe she has done an admirable job.

Scaurus rejoins the main list after a long break and now he is here to save
us with his knowledge and Romanitas. Scaurus is a very knowledgable man,
for that we are in agreement. But I he is also an angry man, and I believe
his anger and hatred of people clouds whatever vast amounts of knowledge he
has. Knowledge does not equal wisdom.

I eagerly await whatever clever comment you might have about me. How about
an attack on my religious choices, those are always good for a laugh. Or
why not talk about my stance on woman pontifices, you haven't attacked that
in awhile. Or tell me I'm not as Roman as you... that makes me feel so warm
inside.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/7/06, QFabiusMaxmi@... <QFabiusMaxmi@...> wrote:
>
>
> Consul, you wouldn't know the mos maiorum if you tripped over it in the
> dark.
> Do you even know what it means?
>
> I'm sure that if the people can elect you, a quitter who resigned her
> offices
> under duress when Roma needed her the most, they will be willing to put
> into
> office a scholar who reads both classical languages and has forgotten more
>
> about Roman things then you probably have learned. I'm not saying the
> above to
> be rhetorical, I'm saying it because it is true.
>
> If you are going carry out character assassination, make sure your house
> is
> in order first.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48030 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Dianae Octaviae Aventinae salutem dicit

Very nice. Thanks for posting. All of it was very good, and I especially
liked your little book reviews -- unexpected but nice to see.

Vale:

Modianus

On 12/7/06, Diana Aventina <diana@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete all,
>
> I've recently out my Temple of Venus website back online.I was using the
> free domains from .th but sometimes the redirect didn't work. So the new
> website address is
>
> http://www.omniavincitamor.org
> Please stop by and leave a message in the guestbook. Venus is getting
> lonely!!
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia Aventina
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48031 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Agricola Maximo sal.

Senator, I write in earnest, so please don't take me wrong. You wrote
thus:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, QFabiusMaxmi@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/7/2006 1:29:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Qfabiusmaxmi
> writes:
>
> You know, I'm sorry, but after reading this I have to lodge an
objection.
> The 21st century "cultores" have no business here at all. This was
never
> about 21st century "cultores." It was restoring the religio of the
Roman
> Republic. There was no century/timeline mentioned. And I know from
personal
> interviews that none was intended.
> The state exists because the public religio needs it.

[SNIP]

Whatever the intention, we have Nova Roma as it is, and any attempt to
exclude non-cultores, quasi-cultores, semi-cultores, near-cultores or
what have you will meet with firm opposition. We saw something of that
here recently.

So I ask, in all sincerity, why *this* Nova Roma? It seems that what
we have here is a nice blueprint and a lot of experience. If there be
a number of let's call them "strict" recons, what prevents them from
starting another State? Why can there not be a Nova Roma and a Roma
Aeterna, for example? If there is a body of strict recons of any size
at all, it seems to me that the simplest thing would be to incorporate
another institution, and make sure that only acceptable people get in.
Who knows, perhaps a stricter interpretation would attract more people
than we do now under the system we have.

I do really want to hear your ideas on this, as you have been here a
long time, and you seem to know something about it. Is there some
hidden tie that binds us all here, even unwilling? Is there some cause
that prevents us each one and in groups from joining a Res Publica as
much to our liking as possible? Is there some reason that one Res
Publica of 600 unhappy people is better than two Res Publicae of 300
happy people each?

If you point to what you said, "The 21st century 'cultores' have no
business here at all. This was never about 21st century 'cultores'.",
I would admit that you might have a claim to priority here ni Nova
Roma. However, it was a decision of early citizens to throw open the
gates wide. If some think it was a mistake, why not start afresh
rather than suffer torment in what might be a broken system?

This isn't a bait or an attack. It is a serious question and I do
really look forward to reading your considered reply.

With thanks

optime vale in pace deorum
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48032 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: a.d. VII Id. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VII Idus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

"To this Postumius replied: 'In the meanwhile, surrender us, whom no
inviolability protects and whose surrender will violate no man's
conscience. Afterwards you will surrender those "sacrosanct" gentlemen
also as soon as their year of office expires, but if you take my
advice you will see that before they are surrendered they are scourged
in the Forum by way of paying interest for a punishment that will have
been delayed. Why, who is so ignorant of fetial law as not to see that
these men are saying this, not because it represents the fact but to
prevent their being surrendered? I do not deny, senators, that where
the pledged words of men are held to possess a binding force only
second to the sanctions of religion, then such undertakings as we have
given are as sacred as formal treaties. But I do say that without the
express order of the people nothing can be ratified which can bind the
people. Suppose the Samnites, in the same spirit of insolent pride in
which they extorted this capitulation from us, had compelled us to
recite the formula for the surrender of cities, would you say,
tribunes, that the Roman people was surrendered and that this City
with its shrines and temples, its territory, and its waters had become
the property of the Samnites? I say no more about surrender because
what we are considering is the pledge we gave in the capitulation.
Well now, suppose we had given a pledge that the Roman people would
abandon this City, would burn it, would no longer have its own
magistrates and senates and laws, but would live under the rule of
kings. 'Heaven forbid!' you say. Yes, but the binding force of a
capitulation is not lightened by the humiliating nature of its terms.
If the people can be bound by any article, it can by all. The point
which some consider important, namely whether it is a consul or a
Dictator or a praetor who has given the undertaking is of no weight
whatever. The Samnites themselves made this clear, for it was not
enough for them that the consuls pledged themselves, they compelled
the staff-officers, the quaestors, and the military tribunes to do the
same.

'Now no one need say to me, "Why did you pledge yourself in that way,
seeing that a consul has no right to do so and you were not in a
position to promise them a peace of which you could not guarantee the
ratification, or to act on behalf of the people when they had given
you no mandate to do so?" Nothing that happened at Caudium, senators,
was dictated by human prudence; the gods deprived both the enemy's
commanders and your own of their senses. We did not exercise
sufficient caution in our various movements, they in their folly threw
away a victory when they had won through our folly. They hardly felt
safe on the very ground which gave them their victory, such a hurry
were they in to agree to any conditions if only they could deprive of
their arms men who were born to arms. If they had been in their
senses, would they have had any difficulty in sending envoys to Rome
whilst they were fetching an old man from his home to advise them? Was
it impossible for them to enter into negotiations with the senate and
with the people about securing peace and making a treaty? It is a
three days' journey for lightly-equipped horsemen, and in the meantime
there would have been an armistice until the envoys returned bringing
either peace or the certainty of their victory. Then and then only
would there have been a binding agreement, because we should have made
it by order of the people. But you would not have made such an order,
nor should we have given such a pledge. It was not the will of heaven
that there should be any other result than this, namely, that the
Samnites should be vainly deluded by a dream too delightful for their
minds to grasp, that the same Fortune which had imprisoned our army
should also release it, that an illusory victory should be rendered
futile by a still more illusory peace, and that stipulations should be
brought in, binding on none but those who actually made them. For what
share have you, senators, what share has the people in this business?
Who can call you to account, who can say that you have deceived him?
The enemy? You have given no pledge to the enemy. Any fellow-citizen?
You have not empowered any fellow-citizen to give a pledge on your
behalf. You are not in any way involved with us, for you have given us
no mandate; you are not answerable to the Samnites, for you have had
no dealings with them. It is we who are answerable, pledged as debtors
and quite able to discharge the debt in respect of what is our own,
which we are prepared to pay, that is, our own persons and lives. On
these let them wreak their vengeance, for these let them sharpen their
swords and their rage. As for the tribunes, you ought to consider
whether it is possible for them to be surrendered at once, or whether
it ought to be deferred, but as for us, T. Veturius and the rest of
you who are concerned, let us in the meantime offer these worthless
lives of ours in discharge of our bond, and by our deaths set free the
arms of Rome for action.'" - Livy, History of Rome 9.9

The Faunalia continues today.


"But in the meantime the assassins were come with a band of soldiers,
Herennius, a centurion, and Popillius, a tribune, whom Cicero had
formerly defended when prosecuted for the murder of his father.
Finding the doors shut, they broke them open, and Cicero not
appearing, and those within saying they knew not where he was, it is
stated that a youth, who had been educated by Cicero in the liberal
arts and sciences, an emancipated slave of his brother Quintus,
Philologus by name, informed the tribune that the litter was on its
way to the sea through the close and shady walks. The tribune, taking
a few with him, ran to the place where he was to come out. And Cicero,
perceiving Herennius running in the walks, commanded his servants to
set down the litter; and stroking his chin, as he used to do, with his
left hand, he looked steadfastly upon his murderers, his person
covered with dust, his beard and hair untrimmed, and his face worn
with his troubles. So that the greatest part of those that stood by
covered their faces whilst Herennius slew him. And thus was he
murdered, stretching forth his neck out of the litter, being now in
his sixty-fourth year. Herennius cut off his head, and, by Antony's
command, his hands also, by which his Philippics were written; for so
Cicero styled those orations he wrote against Antony, and so they are
called to this day.

When these members of Cicero were brought to Rome, Antony was holding
an assembly for the choice of public officers; and when he heard it,
and saw them, he cried out, "Now let there be an end of our
proscriptions." He commanded his head and hands to be fastened up over
the rostra, where the orators spoke; a sight which the Roman people
shuddered to behold, and they believed they saw there, not the face of
Cicero, but the image of Antony's own soul. And yet amidst these
actions he did justice in one thing, by delivering up Philologus to
Pomponia, the wife of Quintus; who, having got his body into her
power, besides other grievous punishments, made him cut off his own
flesh by pieces, and roast and eat it; for so some writers have
related. But Tiro, Cicero's emancipated slave, has not so much as
mentioned the treachery of Philologus." - Plutarch, Parallel Lives
"Cicero"

"ORAQVE magnanimum spirantia paene uirorum
in rostris iacuere suis; sed enim abstulit omnis,
tamquam sola foret, rapti Ciceronis imago.
tunc redeunt animis ingentia consulis acta
iurataeque manus deprensaque foedera noxae
patriciumque nefas extinctum: poena Cethegi
deiectusque redit uotis Catilina nefandis.
quid fauor adscitus, pleni quid honoribus anni
profuerant, sacris et uota quid artibus aetas?
abstulit una dies aeui decus, ictaque luctu
conticuit Latiae tristis facundia linguae.
unica sollicitis quondam tutela salusque,
egregium semper patriae caput, ille senatus
uindex, ille fori, legum iurisque togaeque
publica uox, saeuis aeternum obmutuit armis!
informis uoltus sparsamque cruore nefando
canitiem sacrasque manus operumque ministras
tantorum pedibus ciuis proiecta superbis
proculcauit ouans nec lubrica fata deosque
respexit! nullo luet hoc Antonius aeuo.
hoc nec in Emathio mitis uictoria Perse,
nec te, dire Syphax, non fecerat hoste Philippo;
inque triumphato ludibria iuncta Iugurtha
afuerunt, nostraeque cadens ferus Hannibal irae
membra tamen Stygias tulit inuiolata sub umbras." - Cornelius Severus,
"On the Death of Cicero" (c.38 B.C.)

"Cicero, at the instance of M. Clius, with no less zeal than
eloquence, defended C. Popilius Lna, a man of Picenum, and, though he
had a doubtful case, returned him in safety to his home. This
Popilius, of his own accord, although he had never afterward been
harmed by Cicero by word or deed, asked Antony to send him to pursue
and kill that illustrious proscript. When he had obtained this
detestable commission he hastened with joy and gladness to Caieta and
ordered that man who, not to mention his very great dignity, had
certainly been Lna's preserver, and was entitled to veneration for the
zealous and distinguished service rendered in his private capacity, to
lay bare his throat. Then, with absolute coolness, he cut off the head
of Roman eloquence and the most renowned right hand of peace. Loaded
with these, as with the honorable spoils of war, he returned gayly to
the city. As he bore the infamous burden it never occurred to him that
he was carrying the very head that once had pleaded eloquently for his
own. Words are powerless to stigmatize this monster, since no other
Cicero exists to deplore in fitting terms the misfortune that befell
that one." - Valerius Maximus, "The Ingratitude of the Romans" v.3-4

On this day in 43 B.C., Cicero was murdered on the orders of Mark
Antony as he tried to leave Italy.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Livy, Valerius Maximus, Cornelius Severus, Plutarch
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48033 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Cato P. Minuciae Straboni sal.

Pompeia Strabo, strange as it may seem, I agree with much of what you
wrote. however, a couple of points.

You wrote:

"Moreover, the decretum initially amputated any civil
activity of comitia, which often proves necessary in unforseen
circumstances."

Actually, if you recall, there were specific provisions for allowing
elections to be held - that stretches of time would be declared
comitialis for that purpose. And remember that (as I pointed out at
the time) once the days were declared comitialis, a presiding
magistrate can do anything that is allowed on a dies comitialis -
including calling for legislative activity.


You also wrote:

"As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
you to run for office."

No, you couldn't. Our lex constitutive guarantees citizens the right
to run for office. Consuls are not above the lex constitutiva.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48034 From: Chantal Gaudiano Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: On Following Multiple Religions
Scaurus (I think) said:

..But she can't claim to adhere to the Religio Romana and profess
religious beliefs inconsistent with the Religio without my pointing
out the incoherence...

What I think:

It is possible to have your own primary religious beliefs and to also
welcome others into your mind. I have a t-shirt that says, "The paths
are many; the Light is one," and I believe that. There is just as much
spiritual wisdom to be had from the Religio Romana as from any other
religion, and even if the gods of the Religio are not the ones who most
strongly call to you, it is possible to welcome them and to feel
affection for them--because, in the end, it is the same Light, whether
you believe in one god or many.

I now consider myself a follower of the Catholic medieval mystic path.
On the way to getting there, I have considered myself normal Catholic,
atheist, agnostic, Wiccan, and then Catholic-Wiccan.

I know that calling myself both Catholic and Wiccan was weird, and that
the Credo of Catholicism is inconsistent with the concept of Wicca,
though I don't think the reverse is true. But I also realized that it
is possible to perform Catholic worship in the Wiccan style, as there
is much similarity between the two religions--Wicca even has communion,
though it doesn't mean preciesly the same thing in Wicca that it does
in Catholicism.

The main reason I chose the path I now follow is that I never could
'feel' Wicca deep in my soul, the way I do the teachings of the mystics
(Cloud of Unknowing, etc.) So I made my choice.

In any case, if Marca Hortensia considers herself a follower of Judaism
who also welcomes the Religio--sounds good to me. I think faith is too
individual a thing to be easily categorized, even though some clergies
try to do that.

Valete omnes,

Paulla Corva Gaudialis
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48035 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Cato quirites SPD

Salvete omnes.

Try as I could, I cannot help commenting on some of what has been said.

First, the idea of religious syncretism - the idea that many beliefs
compliment and support each other - is a very nice and hospitable one.

The only problem is that some religions, among them Christianity, do
not by their very nature *allow* for syncretism. Being a Christian
means believing a very specific set of things; no matter how you slice
it, no matter how good your intentions, no matter how much you want
someone else's beliefs to be recognized as personally valid, if the
foundation is not there, it is simply not Christianity. Christianity
says there is only one God and that there is only one way to interact
with that God - through acknowledgement of, and obedience to, Himself
made Incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ and the Faith passed on
through His Body, the Church. Anything - *anything* - else is not
Christianity. Gnosticism, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Taoism, Judaism,
Shintoism, Protestantism (just kidding) - all these are wonderful in
and of themselves - but they are not, and cannot be, Christianity.
Not because *they* are not willing to flex or bend enough to encompass
some of the teachings of Christ, but because Christianity simply does
not accept them as full and efficacious avenues to God.

The reason I bring this up in such detail is because the discussion
has brought the questions to my mind, "What exactly does the religio
romana encompass in Nova Roma? Is it syncretic? Is it supposed to be?"

I would like to hear from our pontiffs - and practitioners - about the
answer.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48036 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Scauro salutem dicit

Interestingly a new book was recently published by Vanderbilt theologian
John J. Thatamanil called "The Immanent Divine: God, Creation And the Human
Predicament." In his book he introduces the theology of Paul Tillich and
compares them with the theology of Sankara. What results is a fascinating
look at Christian and Hindu theology and what emerges is an interesting
blend. I'm sure there are Hindu and Christian fundamentalists who are
scandalized but such an infusion of ideas, but I find it fascinating to see
the existential ideas of Tillich in "conversation" with the non-Dualism of
Sankara.

Additionally, there is a movement within Paganism called "Judeo-Paganism,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Paganism . I know a non-Nova Roma friend
of mine who was raised Jewish considers herself a Jewish Pagan. She
celebrates Jewish holidays with her Reform Jewish family, but also honors
the feminine aspects of God as part of her "Jewish Pagan" heritage (her
words not mine).

The study of Classics is invaluable to the reconstruction of the Religio
Romana. However, we are a living and vibrant movement and therefore the
field of "religious studies" is not inappropriate to the reconstruction of
the Religio Romana. One cannot live their faith via books alone.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Agricolae SPD.
>
> It may mean little to you, but I was not belittling Judaism or
> Buddhism in remarks about Maior's modern syncretism. I was belittling
> the idea that they are compatible with the Religio Romana as if they
> were sacra peregrina. They are their own great religious traditions,
> not Rome's, and it belittles them considerably to think that they can
> attached as appurtenances to the Religio Romana. Devout Jews regard
> the Religio Romana as avodah zarah (literally the Religio Romana as
> avodah zarah -- it's a Talmudic principle from the imperial period).
> Buddhism is agnostic about deities and is utterly foreign to Rome and
> Roman culture. What is so difficult to understand about my thinking
> that trying to conjoin Judaism, Buddhism, and the Religio Romana
> insults all three religions because it does not respect what is unique
> in each? The great vice of modern spirituality is the pernicious
> notion that religions which are great models of systematic theology on
> their own, which are based on mutually exclusive principles, can be
> blended. I think this approach gravely disrespects all religions.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48037 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Good idea, Agricola. That is definitely concrete. You should also ask Piscinus Horatianus if you can transfer his articles at SVR into the NR wiki. His piece of augury is especially excellent. I will ask a friend with a digital camera to take some photos of my pieces.

Aureliane


-----Original Message-----
From: wm_hogue@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:26 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

[SNIP]

>Are we going to do anything concrete or are we just going to
> yak-yak-yak.

Salve Aureliane,

I just spent the morning moving articles from the web site to the wiki
here: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Ritus

Let's work together to get the grammar fixed, links made, citations
entered and everything else that needs doing.

I renew my call for citizens to upload lararium photos to the lararium
article. We also need pictures of paterae, lucernae and all the rest
for those respective articles.

optime vale

Agricola



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48038 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Why the Insult?
Laenas Modiano SPD

>>The man you champion so much is also a quitter. How many times has
Scaurus
left Nova Roma (and as Aedile), only to come back at the last minute
(ie.,
before the nine days) to the sighs of many who were afraid he would
actually
leave us! What about Laenas, he resigned as Tribune... yet came
back, and
he had your endorsement when he ran for Consul. In the past I too
have been
critical of Pompeia and her resignation. However, she did come back
to
active involvement in Nova Roma and has worked to repair her
reputation and
I believe she has done an admirable job.<<

Why would you draw me into this, calling me a "quitter" and implying
that I have not returned to "active" participation compared to
Pompeia? Since I rescinded my resignation (and hence never had any
place to return from), I served as Praetor, Senator, Propraetor, and
Consul...seems pretty active to me.

Many have resigned and then rescinded within the nine days (that's
what the nine days are for), and continued to contribute. You owe
me better treatment my one time amice.
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48039 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Aurelianus Scauro sal.

The calendar and Metellus' changes have been on the CP list since last month.

Vale.


-----Original Message-----
From: gregory.rose@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]


Scaurus Aureliano SPD.

As soon as the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption, I
shall begin performing the required caerimoniae. I cannot do so until
he fulfills that legal obligation. As soon as you and Metellus Pius
have a formal calendrical decretum for next year ready for the
Collegium's approval, I would happy to convene the Collegium and move
its adoption. I am working on translation of all the extant fragments
of the Libri Augurales to provide the foundation for an NR Liber
Auguralis. I am working on a translation of Van Haeperen's Le College
Pontificale for the Collegium. And I'll be writing my position paper
on the sacred colleges as soon as my Christmas break begins. If there
is anything more I can fit in my schedule, I'd be happy to take
suggestions as to what to do next.

Vale.

Scaurus


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48040 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Are you on the same list as the rest of us, Modianus Pontiff. In the last two weeks, I have seen very little dignity and respect coming from individuals who are candidates, magistrates, pontiffs, and Senators. I was actually asking the Praetores for some peace; I do not really expect harmony from most of the leadership of NR. It is really hard to see the forest when you are one of the trees.

Vale.

Aurelianus


-----Original Message-----
From: tau.athanasios@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] To the Praetores


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aureliano salutem dicit

I appreciate your desire to promote peace and harmony in Nova Roma.
However, a Praetor is not going to silence this Consul from speaking his
mind and promoting what he feels is the greater good. At this point I am
less concerned with any Religio Reform package than I am with our
pontificies treating people with some dignity and respect.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
>
> Dii Immortales have very little to do with the sort of argument that the
> general membership is seeing right now from members of its alleged "sacred
> and
> secular leadership."
>
> This is definitely part of the reason why Nova Roma is losing citizens
> although it is not the only one. I very much believe that the decretum
> that was
> recently passed is a complete waste of time because I have seen absolutely
> no
> sign of the flamen of Quirinus has been attending to restoring the Pax
> Deorum.
>
> I suggest to the Praetores that they ask the following individuals to
> refrain from posting any more discussion concerning the reform of the CP,
> the
> decretum, or each other until Saturnalia begins in the hope that we can
> have a
> little goodwill towards each other for a few days:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> M. Hortensia Maior
> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> C. Iulius Scaurus
> & anyone else who wants to chime in on these shenanigans.
>
> Vadite in pace Cereris.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48041 From: os390account Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Our customs (for newcomers, mostly)
Salvete,

Normally I watch from the sidelines, but here I must point out
something regarding the following:

> > their own, which are based on mutually exclusive principles, can
be
> > blended. I think this approach gravely disrespects all religions.

Religions grow up around culture of the tribal units that practice
them. A religion frequently codifies permissible social interactions
that will preserve the structure of the tribe, and permit the
allocation and use of scarce resources by its members. I.e. If you
are one of us, then you can have some of our food/water.

Most religions have some kind of doctrine of exclusion, to prevent a
foreign system of thought from disrupting this members-only aspect to
resource allocation. It's a great system in a tribal structure;
however, today we are a global society, and these doctrines should be
abandoned. The problem is that in order to prevent tampering with
the structure of a religion, there exists the system of mystery, or
certain "knowable truths," the disputation of which is branded
heresy, carrying a penalty of expulsion or exile even in mild
interpretations of nonconformity. These "truths," once available to
all, became the province of certain learned individuals early in
history as specialization within tribes began to appear.

Over time, in a budding civilization, people more and more vouchsafe
their trust and knowledge to these specialists, who in turn need to
protect the people (and possibly their own positions) by asserting
that the aforementioned truths have become esoteric, and can be
reached only by initiation, thereby guaranteeing adherence to tribal
needs, and ensuring the continues equitible division of the scarce
resources for the preservation and continuation of the tribe. We
still see this today in many fields, e.g. computers or automobiles.
People get in a car, turn the key, and step on the loud pedal. As
for the inner workings or their vehicle, they take it to a priest or
shaman, who pours magic potions into the engine, and who waves
diagnostic wands over secret places only the shaman might know. Even
our beloved NovaRoma website looks like a nifty place, with clickable
ways to get around, but under the covers one might see a lot of
program spirits busily performing tasks set to them by the local
shaman programmers.

This complex web of tribal interactions is the perfect venue for a
symphony of esotericism, where the listener may enjoy, but sit only
in his or her seat, and politely clap when movement comes to a
close. Not to obey those simple rules are grounds for dismissal from
the hall.

Gratias vobis ago valeteque,
Q. Valerius Callidus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48042 From: marcushoratius Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Salvete Quirites et omnes

The Collegium Pontificum recently declared a period of reflection,
prayer, and sacrifice spanning over this time of year as we celebrate
our respective seasonal holidays. I have been busy preparing for
Saturnalia, decorating for the season, buying presents, baking
treats, and planning our holiday meals, especially pleased to have my
youngest son just returned from Iraq. Others here will celebrate
Christmas or Chanakah. It is a time of year when we ought to be
setting aside discord, looking instead to celebrating with our
families and community.

Instead, as I take time out from my holiday preparations to read the
lists, I find continued discord, degenerating into personal comments.
Most disturbing has been to find members of the Collegium Pontificum
participating in these personal disputes in disreagrd of their own
declaration to others. Complex issues do not wait for holidays, but
neither are their resolutions accomplished through personal sniping
at one another.

Go! Enjoy your holidays. Devote yourselves to a spiritual renewal.
Return with a resolve to work together on the issues before us.
There is much work to do in the coming year and in the years to
follow.

Io Saturnalia!
M Moravius Piscinus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...>
wrote:
>
> Scaurus quiritibus SPD.
>
> I have proposed the following to the Collegium Pontificum on the
> matter of organisation of colleges. I hope that crystallising the
> approaches by serious thought and preparation of position papers
will
> allow for a systematic debate and resolution of the matter by the
> Collegium.
> _____________________________
> Scaurus pontificibus SPD.
>
> I think that it is unuseful to toss ideas off the top of our heads
on
> an issue as complex and important as the organisation of the sacred
> colleges.
>
> I propose that each pontifex, and any flamines or vestales who
choose
> to do so, take the next month and half to do research, reflect
> carefully, and think systematically about this issue and write a
> position paper outlining what changes should be adopted. We can
> present these position papers at the end of January, debate them,
> craft a decretum, and resolve the matter then when we have all
devoted
> the appropriate time, research, and reflection to the issue. Lets
do
> this in a serious and systematic fashion.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
> _____________________________
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48043 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Why the Insult?
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Gaio Popillio Laeno salutem dicit

I apologize for my insinuation, it was not intended as an offense against
you but to illustrate a point. You did resign, and you came back and you
did work diligently to serve Nova Roma. So did Pompeia and so did others.
The irony is that Quintus Fabius Maximus was accusing Pompeia of doing
something that Scaurus himself has done. Again, no disrespect was
intended. Please accept my apologies for having offended.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus


On 12/7/06, gaiuspopilliuslaenas <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> Laenas Modiano SPD
>
> >>The man you champion so much is also a quitter. How many times has
> Scaurus
> left Nova Roma (and as Aedile), only to come back at the last minute
> (ie.,
> before the nine days) to the sighs of many who were afraid he would
> actually
> leave us! What about Laenas, he resigned as Tribune... yet came
> back, and
> he had your endorsement when he ran for Consul. In the past I too
> have been
> critical of Pompeia and her resignation. However, she did come back
> to
> active involvement in Nova Roma and has worked to repair her
> reputation and
> I believe she has done an admirable job.<<
>
> Why would you draw me into this, calling me a "quitter" and implying
> that I have not returned to "active" participation compared to
> Pompeia? Since I rescinded my resignation (and hence never had any
> place to return from), I served as Praetor, Senator, Propraetor, and
> Consul...seems pretty active to me.
>
> Many have resigned and then rescinded within the nine days (that's
> what the nine days are for), and continued to contribute. You owe
> me better treatment my one time amice.
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48044 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Aureliano salutem dicit

And Metellus is fully capable of convening the Collegium Pontificum.

Vale:

Modianus

On 12/7/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
>
> Aurelianus Scauro sal.
>
> The calendar and Metellus' changes have been on the CP list since last
> month.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gregory.rose@... <gregory.rose%40gmail.com>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
>
> Scaurus Aureliano SPD.
>
> As soon as the Pontifex Maximus announces the decretum's adoption, I
> shall begin performing the required caerimoniae. I cannot do so until
> he fulfills that legal obligation. As soon as you and Metellus Pius
> have a formal calendrical decretum for next year ready for the
> Collegium's approval, I would happy to convene the Collegium and move
> its adoption. I am working on translation of all the extant fragments
> of the Libri Augurales to provide the foundation for an NR Liber
> Auguralis. I am working on a translation of Van Haeperen's Le College
> Pontificale for the Collegium. And I'll be writing my position paper
> on the sacred colleges as soon as my Christmas break begins. If there
> is anything more I can fit in my schedule, I'd be happy to take
> suggestions as to what to do next.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48045 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Aurelianus Modiano sal.

With all due respect to my comments making you upset . . . tough. You can just suck it up. M. Hortensia Maior is a pain in the tuckus but she is not the bane of my existance. You-know-who from GA was the bane of my existance and he is inactive. To be truthful, I do not dismiss her and I do acknowledge her past and present contributions to Nova Roma. I just don't want her to be Tribune because I believe she lacks the moderate nature necessary for the job. Please see my previous post on my reasons why I believe we are at loggerheads.

You have contributed to NR, so has Scaurus, Horatianus, Metellus, Maximus, Agricola, Cordus, Paulinus, Strabo, and about 300 more individuals over the last eight year. However, contributing members usually step on toes and hurt people's feelings which leads to occasional problems. Any fool can go through life without offending anyone and not contributing a blessed thing. I am aware that nothing specific can represent the totality of a subject. Go teach your grandmother to suck eggs, brother.

And I am well aware that you and I have been offending each other regularly the past year but that doesn't mean that I don't like you and respect you as a person or as a brother.

Vale.


-----Original Message-----
From: tau.athanasios@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Aureliano salutem dicit

Comments like the one below do not motivate me to action. They only
continue to upset me further. Marca Hortensia Maior, as I have said, can be
a challenge in your manner of communication with citizens here -- and I have
told her as such -- however she is a citizen that has contributed
significantly to Nova Roma and to dismiss her simply because she is a pain
in your tuckus and the bane of your existence doesn't mean she is a pain in
the tuckus of others. You have been a pain in my "tuckus" on more than one
occassion, but I wouldn't think about announcing such on the main list --
save for now to make a point.

All the things you indicated are important, but they do not represent the
totality of what is important.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
>
> Why are we discussing Marca Hortensia Maior? She is a pain in the tuckus
>
> and the bane of several people's existence but she is only a minor problem
> to
> this body. Are we going to do anything concrete or are we just going to
> yak-yak-yak. We cannot even fill the offices we currently have because of
> a lack
> of basic framework for the purpose of instruction and yet the reform is a
> top
> priority.
>
> Aureliane
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48046 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Yep, that is really showing how pontiffs can show respect and dignity to other citizens while disagreeing with them. Yep, Nova Roma is still the eighth wonder of the virtual world. If we could just arm a few Senators and pontiffs, turn them loose in an arena, and charge for tickets; Nova Roma would be able to have a treasury surplus that would be staggering. Oh well, too much wishful thinking on my part.

Aurelianus


-----Original Message-----
From: tau.athanasios@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit

So now Marca Hortensia Maior is my client. That's news to me, but nothing I
interject will change your mind so there is no use in my attempting to do
so. I will say that I find it interesting that you come back to Nova Roma
and start back up with your antics of preaching "reconciliation" yet display
a mannerism contray to such -- all the while bringing discord with your
fundamentalist approach to the Religio Romana. This is why I am posting
because I believe your approach to Roman Religion to be full of hate and I
do not share this with you so I speak out against it. Anyone whom you do
not agree with is "unRoman," a "modernist," or doesn't get it right. The
senate should just appoint you dictator so you can teach us all how to be
Roman and we can all bow to your greatness.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> I find it interesting that Maior can rail against anyone she pleases
> for weeks on end without your saying a public word, but all it takes
> is my responding to bring a consul into the fray. You behaviour
> belies your claims of objectivity, but I grant that it is very Roman
> to defend one's client.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48047 From: drumax Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
If I may interrupt this eternal bickering to make a small comment.

When I came to Nova Roma I thought I had an idea of what it would be like, what this organization is about, I was so very wrong. Every day I get about 50 e-mails of bickering. If it isn’t M. Hortensia Maior striking out at someone or threatening to sue Nova Roma getting up in arms about every little thing and resorting to base attacks, its someone (reasonably In my humble opinion) asking why the hell we must put up with this childish behavior, or someone ignoring her very real, very antagonistic disruptive behavior and astonishingly brow beating others for not wanting to tolerate it. Well, this humble citizen will NOT tolerate it.

Now I know I have been told that I can just ignore these never ending missives but then what Nova Roma becomes is 'spam' that I have to constantly erase...and why would I join a group where 90% of the messages on the main list are just annoyances and spam?

Everyday when I see this garbage spewing from Hortensia and those who seem to think her behavior is (admittedly a pain) but worthy of our attention…then the 200+ messages regarding her…I cant help but think a bright group of adults might realize that this person has become a real problem and is harming this group. The snide remarks back and forth…the ridiculous hyperbole and the fake incredulous reactions if anyone dares to be as brash as her is laughable… What I love most is her faux exhaustion and remarks about Episcopalians and booze that she puts forth as if she has no clue why people are so frustrated with her. She, of course, knows damn well what she does, It is SHE who disrespects the group with her threats and disruptions, all else are just reactions out of frustration to a cancer and why people cant see this is beyond me and I no longer care. I knew she was a problem when he talked about suing this group and her dramatic missives to every little thing and calling fo!
r Treason chargesÂ…

 

I did not join this group for this, I get enough of this crap in my everyday life, I donÂ’t need it here. I had hoped this would be a group of like minded people working together as friends but to me it just doesnt seem to be the case. Since I have only been here for a small amount of time most donÂ’t even know me nor do I know you very well then I figured I should decide now if this is a group I want to expend time and energy on and after some internal debate, I have decided this is not what I am looking for so I will be removing myself from the NR lists and you can remove me as a citizen. I truly wish you the best in the future.

 

Chris

P.S. - As i wrote this 10 more e-mails have come into my box regarding this dead horse :)

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:27:17 -0500, David Kling (Modianus) wrote
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit
>
> So now Marca Hortensia Maior is my client. That's news to me, but nothing I
> interject will change your mind so there is no use in my attempting to do
> so. I will say that I find it interesting that you come back to Nova Roma
> and start back up with your antics of preaching "reconciliation" yet display
> a mannerism contray to such -- all the while bringing discord with your
> fundamentalist approach to the Religio Romana. This is why I am posting
> because I believe your approach to Roman Religion to be full of hate and I
> do not share this with you so I speak out against it. Anyone whom you do
> not agree with is "unRoman," a "modernist," or doesn't get it right. The
> senate should just appoint you dictator so you can teach us all how to be
> Roman and we can all bow to your greatness.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
> >
> > Scaurus Modiano SPD.
> >
> > I find it interesting that Maior can rail against anyone she pleases
> > for weeks on end without your saying a public word, but all it takes
> > is my responding to bring a consul into the fray. You behaviour
> > belies your claims of objectivity, but I grant that it is very Roman
> > to defend one's client.
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > Scaurus
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48048 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Aureliano salutem dicit

"With all due respect to my comments making you upset . . . tough. You can
just suck it up."

Oh, I suck it up... and I use the term "upset" simply to illustrate my
point. I am far from fuming at my keyboard :)

"I just don't want her to be Tribune because I believe she lacks the
moderate nature necessary for the job."

Understood. However, at least she was available as a tribune. So many seem
to go inactive. For example, were on earth is Tribune Astur?

"However, contributing members usually step on toes and hurt people's
feelings which leads to occasional problems. Any fool can go through life
without offending anyone and not contributing a blessed thing. I am aware
that nothing specific can represent the totality of a subject."

So true.

"Go teach your grandmother to suck eggs, brother."

This I don't understand. Is this some colloquialism I'm not familiar with?
Both my grandmothers are dead, so teaching them the nuances of egg sucking
is not possible. I could, however, make an offering of eggs to my ancestors
and hope they get the hint?

"And I am well aware that you and I have been offending each other regularly
the past year but that doesn't mean that I don't like you and respect you as
a person or as a brother."

Absolutely. I found our outing last month charming to say the least. I
can't think of anyone else I'd rather "spar" with :)

Vale:

Modianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48049 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Aureliano salutem dicit

Peace cannot come from the Praetors. Peace has to come from within.
Personal harmony and tranquility need not be dispelled because of
disagreements on an e-mail list. I surely am not going to allow my personal
tranquility to be destroyed because I disagree with someone on an e-mail
list, my life is not so shallow that Nova Roma (as expressed on this list)
encompases the totality of my life. One thing you are correct about is that
it is hard to see the forst when you are one of the trees, and I have found
some of your posts to be somewhat problematic.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
>
> Are you on the same list as the rest of us, Modianus Pontiff. In the
> last two weeks, I have seen very little dignity and respect coming from
> individuals who are candidates, magistrates, pontiffs, and Senators. I was
> actually asking the Praetores for some peace; I do not really expect harmony
> from most of the leadership of NR. It is really hard to see the forest when
> you are one of the trees.
>
> Vale.
>
> Aurelianus
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48050 From: Patrick D. Owen Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: To the Praetores
Ercule! I find my own posts problematical at times. On third
readings, they can be downright confusing even to me. Well, I don't
sweat the hard stuff.

Aurelianus

- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Aureliano salutem dicit
>
> Peace cannot come from the Praetors. Peace has to come from
within.
> Personal harmony and tranquility need not be dispelled because of
> disagreements on an e-mail list. I surely am not going to allow
my personal
> tranquility to be destroyed because I disagree with someone on an
e-mail
> list, my life is not so shallow that Nova Roma (as expressed on
this list)
> encompases the totality of my life. One thing you are correct
about is that
> it is hard to see the forst when you are one of the trees, and I
have found
> some of your posts to be somewhat problematic.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/7/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> wrote:
> >
> > Are you on the same list as the rest of us, Modianus Pontiff.
In the
> > last two weeks, I have seen very little dignity and respect
coming from
> > individuals who are candidates, magistrates, pontiffs, and
Senators. I was
> > actually asking the Praetores for some peace; I do not really
expect harmony
> > from most of the leadership of NR. It is really hard to see the
forest when
> > you are one of the trees.
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > Aurelianus
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48051 From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Why the Insult?
Laenas Modiano SPD

Accepted of course.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Gaio Popillio Laeno salutem dicit
>
> I apologize for my insinuation, it was not intended as an offense
against
> you but to illustrate a point. You did resign, and you came back
and you
> did work diligently to serve Nova Roma. So did Pompeia and so did
others.
> The irony is that Quintus Fabius Maximus was accusing Pompeia of
doing
> something that Scaurus himself has done. Again, no disrespect was
> intended. Please accept my apologies for having offended.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
>
> On 12/7/06, gaiuspopilliuslaenas <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
> >
> > Laenas Modiano SPD
> >
> > >>The man you champion so much is also a quitter. How many times
has
> > Scaurus
> > left Nova Roma (and as Aedile), only to come back at the last
minute
> > (ie.,
> > before the nine days) to the sighs of many who were afraid he
would
> > actually
> > leave us! What about Laenas, he resigned as Tribune... yet came
> > back, and
> > he had your endorsement when he ran for Consul. In the past I too
> > have been
> > critical of Pompeia and her resignation. However, she did come
back
> > to
> > active involvement in Nova Roma and has worked to repair her
> > reputation and
> > I believe she has done an admirable job.<<
> >
> > Why would you draw me into this, calling me a "quitter" and
implying
> > that I have not returned to "active" participation compared to
> > Pompeia? Since I rescinded my resignation (and hence never had
any
> > place to return from), I served as Praetor, Senator, Propraetor,
and
> > Consul...seems pretty active to me.
> >
> > Many have resigned and then rescinded within the nine days
(that's
> > what the nine days are for), and continued to contribute. You owe
> > me better treatment my one time amice.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48052 From: flavius leviticus Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Salve, Diana Octavia Aventina,Thank you for your Temple of Venus.What a wonderful and informative sight.May you be Praised by the Goddesses and Gods of Rome.Vale, Appius Galerius Aurelianus.

Diana Aventina <diana@...> wrote: Salvete all,

I've recently out my Temple of Venus website back online.I was using the
free domains from .th but sometimes the redirect didn't work. So the new
website address is

http://www.omniavincitamor.org
Please stop by and leave a message in the guestbook. Venus is getting
lonely!!

Valete,
Diana Octavia Aventina






---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48053 From: Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kell Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio] - Chris
Salve Chris,

Just the about two months back I was talking to some officers in the
Canadaian armed forces and they were telling me that whenever you
get 5 or more people functioning as a group, there are bound to be
some problems and personality conflicts which they were facing in
their division. I find that whether you are in the military,
academic world, numerous other cultural clubs and societies, the
office world, oil patch and even amongst friends and family, there
are always these conflicts, differences, gossip and all - in short,
I see no place to escape where one can get away from this.

Similarily as QFM just pointed out it was certainly like that in
the ancient Roman republic and some their best with strong heads
like Cicero or Gracchus ended up paying with their lives. Like
Marcus Aurelius said in his time -

"Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I shall be meeting with
interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and
selfishness ---all of them due to the offenders' ignorance of what
is good or evil. But for my part I have long perceived the nature of
good and its nobility, the nature of evil and its meanness, and also
the nature of the culprit himself, who is my brother (not in the
physical sense, but as a fellow-creature similarly endowed with
reason and a share of the divine); therefore none of those things
can injure me, for nobody can implicate me in what is degrading.
Neither can I be angry with my brother or fall foul of him; for he
and I were born to work together, like a man's two hands, feet or
eyelids, or like the upper and lower rows of his teeth. To obstruct
each other is against Nature's law -- and what is irritation or
aversion but a form of obstruction? "

Well it sure shows he had similar problems as well so even if
physicists come up with time travel some day, even going back to the
source of the culture will change nothing.

I hope you reconsider and carry on since many of us like your posts
and input. Like all differences these conflicts eventually peter out
and life in NR goes on.

Regards,

QSP




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
>
> If I may interrupt this eternal bickering to make a small comment.
>
> When I came to Nova Roma I thought I had an idea of what it would
be like, what this organization is about, I was so very wrong. Every
day I get about 50 e-mails of bickering. If it isn't M. Hortensia
Maior striking out at someone or threatening to sue Nova Roma
getting up in arms about every little thing and resorting to base
attacks, its someone (reasonably In my humble opinion) asking why
the hell we must put up with this childish behavior, or someone
ignoring her very real, very antagonistic disruptive behavior and
astonishingly brow beating others for not wanting to tolerate it.
Well, this humble citizen will NOT tolerate it.
>
> Now I know I have been told that I can just ignore these never
ending missives but then what Nova Roma becomes is 'spam' that I
have to constantly erase...and why would I join a group where 90% of
the messages on the main list are just annoyances and spam?
>
> Everyday when I see this garbage spewing from Hortensia and those
who seem to think her behavior is (admittedly a pain) but worthy of
our attentionÂ…then the 200+ messages regarding herÂ…I cant help but
think a bright group of adults might realize that this person has
become a real problem and is harming this group. The snide remarks
back and forthÂ…the ridiculous hyperbole and the fake incredulous
reactions if anyone dares to be as brash as her is laughableÂ… What I
love most is her faux exhaustion and remarks about Episcopalians and
booze that she puts forth as if she has no clue why people are so
frustrated with her. She, of course, knows damn well what she does,
It is SHE who disrespects the group with her threats and
disruptions, all else are just reactions out of frustration to a
cancer and why people cant see this is beyond me and I no longer
care. I knew she was a problem when he talked about suing this group
and her dramatic missives to every little thing and calling fo!
> r Treason chargesÂ…
>
>  
>
> I did not join this group for this, I get enough of this crap in
my everyday life, I don't need it here. I had hoped this would be a
group of like minded people working together as friends but to me it
just doesnt seem to be the case. Since I have only been here for a
small amount of time most don't even know me nor do I know you very
well then I figured I should decide now if this is a group I want to
expend time and energy on and after some internal debate, I have
decided this is not what I am looking for so I will be removing
myself from the NR lists and you can remove me as a citizen. I truly
wish you the best in the future.
>
>  
>
> Chris
>
> P.S. - As i wrote this 10 more e-mails have come into my box
regarding this dead horse :)
>
> On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:27:17 -0500, David Kling (Modianus) wrote
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Iulio Scauro salutem dicit
> >
> > So now Marca Hortensia Maior is my client. That's news to me,
but nothing I
> > interject will change your mind so there is no use in my
attempting to do
> > so. I will say that I find it interesting that you come back to
Nova Roma
> > and start back up with your antics of preaching "reconciliation"
yet display
> > a mannerism contray to such -- all the while bringing discord
with your
> > fundamentalist approach to the Religio Romana. This is why I am
posting
> > because I believe your approach to Roman Religion to be full of
hate and I
> > do not share this with you so I speak out against it. Anyone
whom you do
> > not agree with is "unRoman," a "modernist," or doesn't get it
right. The
> > senate should just appoint you dictator so you can teach us all
how to be
> > Roman and we can all bow to your greatness.
> >
> > Vale:
> >
> > Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
> >
> > On 12/6/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Scaurus Modiano SPD.
> > >
> > > I find it interesting that Maior can rail against anyone she
pleases
> > > for weeks on end without your saying a public word, but all it
takes
> > > is my responding to bring a consul into the fray. You behaviour
> > > belies your claims of objectivity, but I grant that it is very
Roman
> > > to defend one's client.
> > >
> > > Vale.
> > >
> > > Scaurus
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48054 From: Diana Aventina Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Thank you Appius Galerius Aurelianus!.

It still needs some fine tuning, but overall I am pleased with the result!

>May you be Praised by the Goddesses and Gods of Rome.

You're a sweetie. Thanks again!
Vale,
Diana
----- Original Message -----
From: "flavius leviticus" <centorious@...>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Temple of Venus


> Salve, Diana Octavia Aventina,Thank you for your Temple of Venus.What a
> wonderful and informative sight.May you be Praised by the Goddesses and
> Gods of Rome.Vale, Appius Galerius Aurelianus.
>
> Diana Aventina <diana@...> wrote: Salvete all,
>
> I've recently out my Temple of Venus website back online.I was using the
> free domains from .th but sometimes the redirect didn't work. So the new
> website address is
>
> http://www.omniavincitamor.org
> Please stop by and leave a message in the guestbook. Venus is getting
> lonely!!
>
> Valete,
> Diana Octavia Aventina
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48055 From: pompeia_minucia_tiberia Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
---Salve Equitius Cato et Salvete Omnes:

Quick note.


In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato P. Minuciae Straboni sal.
>
> Pompeia Strabo, strange as it may seem, I agree with much of what
you
> wrote. however, a couple of points.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Moreover, the decretum initially amputated any civil
> activity of comitia, which often proves necessary in unforseen
> circumstances."
>
> Actually, if you recall, there were specific provisions for
allowing
> elections to be held - that stretches of time would be declared
> comitialis for that purpose.

Pompeia: Eventually, yes.


And remember that (as I pointed out at
> the time) once the days were declared comitialis, a presiding
> magistrate can do anything that is allowed on a dies comitialis -
> including calling for legislative activity.

Pompeia: Yes, once it was conceded that established comitialis for
this year could continue to be recognized as comitialis, and not
something else which didn't allow for legislative activity.

Moreover, comitialis are comitialis, no? They are for calling
comitia, period...not calling comitia for one thing, and not calling
comitia for another, at the whim of a pontifex. But that's another
discussion.
>
>
> You also wrote:
>
> "As Consul, if I wanted to adhere strictly to the Mos Maiorum, I
> would exercise historical precedent and use my imperium to forbid
> you to run for office."
>
> No, you couldn't. Our lex constitutive guarantees citizens the
right
> to run for office. Consuls are not above the lex constitutiva.

Pompeia: Exactly. No I couldn't in NR. And I wouldn't. I
indicated in #48003 that I believe in good government. I can't
mandate the ancient mos in my application to law administration any
more than Scaurus Pontifex can mandate it to the fullest in his
administration of religious policies. Our laws and constitution
have parameters which prohibit such a rigorous application of the
ancient mos, religious or civil.

Scaurus Pontifex once asked the Consuls to remove me from a ballot
for office because he felt I was an insult to the Gods and a
madwoman. I took that in stride, but the Consuls didn't remove me
from the ballot...because they couldn't based on the opinion of one
citizen/Pontifex. In antiquity they had more liberties. Scaurus had
forgotten that we don't adhere that strictly to the ancient mos in
NR.

I actually had forgotten about that until this issue arose...not
that he called me a madwoman, but that he asked the Consuls to
remove me from a ballot in 2004.

Thank you for your remarks.
>
> Vale,
>
> Cato

Valete
Pompeia
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48056 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Scaurus Modiano SPD.

Since you throw my resignation when Aedilis Curulis in my face, allow
me to remind you why I resigned. I was receiving thousands of emails
a day from an overseas anonymiser site using dynamic IP addressing
which read "Die, Scaurus." They regularly crashed my email server,
about which my ISP was none too happy. They profoundly upset my
fiancee. And they convinced me that NR had people in it who were
prepared to go to any length to strike at those with whom they
disagreed. I was persuaded by several people -- Marinus, Sulla, and
Diana Octavia among them -- that a public show of support might
intimidate my cyber-stalker into stopping. It worked, I came back,
and I am grateful to those who stood by me in that situation. Given
that this occurred while you were still a Bonus, I am not entirely
surprised that you have wanted to forget the details of that period.

Since then I have taken hiatus from NR twice. The first was as a
result of health problems, which finally abated after cardiac surgery
and a long convalesence. The second was my conscious decision to
absent myself during your consulship because I profoundly disagreed
with you, your world-view, and the direction you proposed to take NR.
In this I followed the example of Cicero, who retired to his estates
outside Rome rather than lend support by his presence to something
which he believed damaged Rome but which he was powerless to stop. I
was persuaded by Maximus, and several others, to return as your
consulship was ending in the hope that something could be preserved
and nurtured which would negate the baneful influuence you have proven
to be on NR.

Irony as a literary device is clearly not your long suit. By calling
Maior your and Strabo's client, I was using it to point out that your
public silence while she endlessly reviled those who oppose you,
followed by your instant public defence of her the moment an opponent
replied was very like a patron rising up to defend a client.

You call me hate-filled. You know me so little that you can hardly
imagine what I am truly about. What infuses my participation in Nova
Roma is love: love of antiquity, love of a tradition which gladly
reaches out to the Di Immortales and strives to restore their worship,
love of the mos maiorum and a fervent hope to see it recreated without
the blight of modern prejudices which regard our Roman ancestors as
unenlightened and ignorant. And because I am willing to fight to
defend those things I love, you call me hateful. I think you do so
because you yourself hate those things I love.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48057 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Scaurus Dianae Octaviae Aventinae SPD.

You deserve great praise for your devotion to the Religio and the
cultus Veneris. I shall offer to Venus Erucina and Venus Genetrix in
thanksgiving for your contributions to our faith.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48058 From: David Kling (Modianus) Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Scauro salutem dicit

I remember hearing about the thousands of e-mails, but of course I never saw
one and I have never heard of anyone else in Nova Roma who has fallen victim
to such harrassement. For some reason I was under the impression that the
suit against you from Fuscus was more of the reason for your withdrawl, and
also the fact that you alienated several people and ruined your chance at
election to higher office.

Using your own logic regarding Patron-Client relationships does that make
you a client of Q. Fabius Maximus?

Regarding this statement: "The second was my conscious decision to absent
myself during your consulship because I profoundly disagreed with you, your
world-view, and the direction you proposed to take NR." I am very pleased
you wrote this. While I acknowledge that I have made mistakes, and know
full well that I am far from perfect, knowing that you profoundly disagree
with me and my worldview pleases me. I do not want to be like you, and I do
not want to share your worldview of hate. You claim to love Rome and Roman
antiquity. This is something that every Nova Roman should aspire to. I
value Rome and Roman culture but will not sacrifice ideals in order to fit
into an anachronistic box. For example, I view your position on women
Pontifices sickening. You would have Nova Roma a male social club, just
like your patron -- and that, among other things, I will continue to oppose.

Yes, I was once a part of your political faction. I left that and the hate
that it promoted. I see that hate is alive and well again.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/7/06, Gregory Rose <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus Modiano SPD.
>
> Since you throw my resignation when Aedilis Curulis in my face, allow
> me to remind you why I resigned. I was receiving thousands of emails
> a day from an overseas anonymiser site using dynamic IP addressing
> which read "Die, Scaurus." They regularly crashed my email server,
> about which my ISP was none too happy. They profoundly upset my
> fiancee. And they convinced me that NR had people in it who were
> prepared to go to any length to strike at those with whom they
> disagreed. I was persuaded by several people -- Marinus, Sulla, and
> Diana Octavia among them -- that a public show of support might
> intimidate my cyber-stalker into stopping. It worked, I came back,
> and I am grateful to those who stood by me in that situation. Given
> that this occurred while you were still a Bonus, I am not entirely
> surprised that you have wanted to forget the details of that period.
>
> Since then I have taken hiatus from NR twice. The first was as a
> result of health problems, which finally abated after cardiac surgery
> and a long convalesence. The second was my conscious decision to
> absent myself during your consulship because I profoundly disagreed
> with you, your world-view, and the direction you proposed to take NR.
> In this I followed the example of Cicero, who retired to his estates
> outside Rome rather than lend support by his presence to something
> which he believed damaged Rome but which he was powerless to stop. I
> was persuaded by Maximus, and several others, to return as your
> consulship was ending in the hope that something could be preserved
> and nurtured which would negate the baneful influuence you have proven
> to be on NR.
>
> Irony as a literary device is clearly not your long suit. By calling
> Maior your and Strabo's client, I was using it to point out that your
> public silence while she endlessly reviled those who oppose you,
> followed by your instant public defence of her the moment an opponent
> replied was very like a patron rising up to defend a client.
>
> You call me hate-filled. You know me so little that you can hardly
> imagine what I am truly about. What infuses my participation in Nova
> Roma is love: love of antiquity, love of a tradition which gladly
> reaches out to the Di Immortales and strives to restore their worship,
> love of the mos maiorum and a fervent hope to see it recreated without
> the blight of modern prejudices which regard our Roman ancestors as
> unenlightened and ignorant. And because I am willing to fight to
> defend those things I love, you call me hateful. I think you do so
> because you yourself hate those things I love.
>
> Vale.
>
> Scaurus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48059 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: And now for something really different
Salvete Romans

Teacher: What is a forum?

Pupil: Two-um plus two-um!

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

And now for something really different








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48060 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: And now for something really different
Salvete Romans

Teacher: What was the greatest accomplishment of the early Romans?

Pupil: Speaking Latin!

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48061 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Cato P. Minuciae Straboni sal.

Pompeia Strabo, you wrote:

"Moreover, comitialis are comitialis, no? They are for calling
comitia, period...not calling comitia for one thing, and not calling
comitia for another, at the whim of a pontifex. But that's another
discussion."

Well, you've got the idea right :-)

Once a day is recognized as (or declared by the pontiffs as) a dies
comitialis, anything that is permitted on such a day - elections,
legislation, legal action &c. - is ... well, permitted. I do not
believe that any restrictions can be placed upon a dies comitialis.

The only exceptions I can think of might be consular or praetorian
edicts declaring how they intended to *apply* regulations surrounding
the various types of days; I, when I become praetor, could promulgate
an edict announcing whether or not voting may take place on dies
fasti, even if a diem fastus occurs in the middle of a string of dies
comitialii (is that declined correctly?). I think.

Vale,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48062 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: And now for something really different
Salvete Romans

Yo mama is so old her birth certificate is in Roman numerals.


Q: How many patrons does it take to light an oil-lamp?


A: None: he would have one of his clients do it for him, of course.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48063 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: On Roman Syncretism
Sacurus quiritibus SPD.

Syncretism in the ancient world was something quite different from
modern syncretism.

First, and probably most important, is the difference between the way
moderns frequently view religion and the way in which the Romans of
antiquity did. For moderns religion is more about themselves than
about the Gods: it is a route to self-realisation, self-fulfillment, a
way to make one happy about oneself. The focus is primarily on the
self. If religion is primarily about the self, then selecting what
pleases oneself from a variety of religions with only the principle of
pleasing oneself as the deciding criterion. In antiquity the primary
focus was on the Di Immortales, on following the tradition cultus
handed down from time immemorial to ensure maintenance of the pax
Deorum. The emphasis was on pleasing the Gods and keeping entact
humanity's contracts with them. To be sure, men supplicated the Gods
for what they needed and desired, but man's ability to do so was
grounded in making sure that the Gods looked favourably upon them by
adhering precisely to age-old rituals and formulae. Do ut dare was
predicated precisely on recognition of an asymmetry which required
that the Gods be placated before they were supplicated. This is very
different from the modern view.

Second, Roman syncretism was based on theological presuppositions
different from modern syncretism. Keith Hopkins was right when he
characterised antiquity as "a world full of Gods." A polytheism which
saw divine entities everywhere was the norm. Furthermore, many of
these deities were associated with place. In such an environment it
was only natural that parallels between deities' functions and
characteristics would be noted and the idea that, for example, the
Roman Minerva and the Britannic Sulis were the same divine being,
Minerva Sulis, arose. This kind of natural syncretism was commonplace
in the Roman world, and appears to have been encouraged in the process
of Romanisation. There was also the notion that foreign Gods had
power: there is evidence for ritual condemnation of the Gods of
foriegn peoples at war with the Romans, aimed at the Di Immortales
subjugating the foreign Gods just as Roman armies subjugated foreign
peoples. It is unsurprising, then, that once a people was conquered
and the process of Romanisation begun the assimilation of their
foreign Gods to the Roman pantheon would occur. This did not happen
in every case, but, again, it was the norm for conquered peoples.

Third, the introduction of foreign cults into the religio publica was
primarily a function of prodigy. A grave crisis or miraculous portent
signaled the acceptability of a foreign cult's alliance with Rome and
her Gods -- Magna Deorum Mater during the Punic Wars and Isis in the
reign of Gaius Caligula are two salient examples. Worship of the
foreign was always regarded as aberrant by the Romans unless the
foreign cult was part of the officially sanctioned sacra peregrina or
a result of Romanising assimilation.

Fourth, the first great monotheism, Judaism, provided mightily
impervious to such syncretism in the Roman world precisely because it
rejected polytheism absolutely. When there was a Sanhedrin, a Jew who
embraced avodah zarah (and both the Hellenic cults and the Religio
Romana were archetypes of avodah zarah, as even the most cursory
examination of the Talmud reveals) was subject to capital punishment.
Judaism's definition of the divine excluded the polytheism which was
at the Religio Romana's base. Likewise, the second great monotheism
rejected Roman syncretism. As Cato has pointed out, Christianity
denies that other religions, the Religio Romana included, are paths to
the divine. If Christianity had been acceptant of polytheism, most
Romans would have regarded it as less of a threat, and there would
have been rather fewer Christian martyrs. The chance for such an
accommodation died with Arianism. The syncretism of Christianity was
not the positive syncretism of the Religio Romana, but rather a
negative syncretism: the church was prepared to coopt rituals and
holidays of the polytheistic world in order to make its message more
palatable to a polytheist audience, but it always changed these
borrowings in such a way as to focus on Christianity's exclusive claim
to the divine.

Fifth, ritual magic was abhorred by the Romans, most especially in the
Republican period, because it was associated with invocation of
malevolent spirits to work mischief or greater evils; veneficium was
the generic term for such magic, and came to be associated with murder
by poisoning. Ritual magic was the province of foreigners; some
Romans might stoop to purchasing their services, but the social stigma
if discovered was enormous.

It is on these grounds that I reject modern syncretism as incompatible
with the Religio Romana. It approaches religion in a way alien to
Roman syncretism. It embraces a melange of religions with little
respect for the principles on which those religions were based,
especially so when it attempts to syncretise Judaism or Christianity,
and it allows for practices which the Romans scorned.

I do not condemn Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, or Wicca, but I do
assert that they have nothing to do with Religio Romana and assert
that their syncretistic practice with the Religio Romana is utterly
un-Roman. People can tout all they like how wonderful the modern
world is letting people blend all sorts of religions in their belief
systems. It's quite true that the modern world encourages this. But
the argument is no refutation of my contention, for the grounds on
which I reject it is that the syncretism of Rome is not the syncretism
of the modern world. The Religio Romana is not some generic
"paganism" -- it is a specific polytheism with a specific tradition
and a specific set of conditions for a unique approach to syncretism.

Valete.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48064 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: And now for something really different
Cato quirites SPD

Dominae et domini, Galerius Paulinus is here the whole week!

Try the veal, folks - and don't forget to tip your waiter.

Valete bene,

Cato

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Romans
>
> Yo mama is so old her birth certificate is in Roman numerals.
>
>
> Q: How many patrons does it take to light an oil-lamp?
>
>
> A: None: he would have one of his clients do it for him, of course.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48065 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
Cato quirites SPD

Salvete omnes.

And here, citizens, is where I as praetor would tell these two
gentlemen to get back in their corners or risk being placed on
moderation.

Consul or no - perhaps *especially* as consul - Gaius Modianus, you
have a responsibility to try to raise the level of language, not tear
away at its foundation. As a pontiff, Iulius Scaurus - perhaps
*especially* as pontiff - you are charged with keeping the hearts and
minds of the citizens on the Di Immortales.

Pompeia and I, even at our worst, never treated each other like this -
or even in private. "Hate" is a terrible, terrible word, when
directed towards another human being.

Valete,

Cato
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48066 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: On Following Multiple Religions
Agricola Gaudiali sal,

We know that Romans were open to outside ideas, so do please be
assured that not all of us are as rigid as some appear to be.

It is well for specialists in the Cultus to specialize in that
exclusively, if they so desire. But for anyone to claim that only that
outlook is correct is to ignore both historical fact and modern
practicalities.

You speak for many, in my opinion.

Optime vale in pace deorum!


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Chantal Gaudiano <aerdensrw@...> wrote:
>
> Scaurus (I think) said:
>
> ..But she can't claim to adhere to the Religio Romana and profess
> religious beliefs inconsistent with the Religio without my pointing
> out the incoherence...
>
> What I think:
>
> It is possible to have your own primary religious beliefs and to also
> welcome others into your mind. I have a t-shirt that says, "The paths
> are many; the Light is one," and I believe that. There is just as much
> spiritual wisdom to be had from the Religio Romana as from any other
> religion, and even if the gods of the Religio are not the ones who most
> strongly call to you, it is possible to welcome them and to feel
> affection for them--because, in the end, it is the same Light, whether
> you believe in one god or many.
>
> I now consider myself a follower of the Catholic medieval mystic path.
> On the way to getting there, I have considered myself normal Catholic,
> atheist, agnostic, Wiccan, and then Catholic-Wiccan.
>
> I know that calling myself both Catholic and Wiccan was weird, and that
> the Credo of Catholicism is inconsistent with the concept of Wicca,
> though I don't think the reverse is true. But I also realized that it
> is possible to perform Catholic worship in the Wiccan style, as there
> is much similarity between the two religions--Wicca even has communion,
> though it doesn't mean preciesly the same thing in Wicca that it does
> in Catholicism.
>
> The main reason I chose the path I now follow is that I never could
> 'feel' Wicca deep in my soul, the way I do the teachings of the mystics
> (Cloud of Unknowing, etc.) So I made my choice.
>
> In any case, if Marca Hortensia considers herself a follower of Judaism
> who also welcomes the Religio--sounds good to me. I think faith is too
> individual a thing to be easily categorized, even though some clergies
> try to do that.
>
> Valete omnes,
>
> Paulla Corva Gaudialis
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48067 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Agricola Catoni sal

Well, our FAQ says:

"Do I have to be Pagan to join?"

"Absolutely not! We have absolutely no interest in the private
religious lives of any of our citizens. All that's required is a love
of all things Roman. Although most of our citizens are currently
Pagans of one ilk or another, and the public "State" religion of Nova
Roma is the Religio Romana, we do not require ordinary citizens to
practice Roman Paganism. Magistrates, because they are not only civil
servants but also have functions within the Religio Romana, must at
least be willing to fulfill those religious functions. "


and further


"How do I form a Collegium of (Wicca/Asatru/Islam/etc.)?"

"The simple answer is, you can't. Strictly speaking, the official
Collegia are based on historical Roman models and are specifically
involved in the practice of the revival of the historical Religio
Romana. While the Senate can officially recognize religious
institutions outside of the Religio Romana, they will only do so for
historical reconstructionist groups that were actually present during
the classical Roman era (such as the Mithraic Mysteries, the cult of
Isis, the cult of Dionysus, etc.). Since Wicca, Asatru, Islam,
Amerindian religion, etc. weren't known to the classical Romans, they
really have no place in the public religious life of Nova Roma. This
in no way says that Citizens cannot practice these faiths in their
private religious life; this restriction is strictly applied to
"official" public religious expression. "


That is in the FAQ, and if that is wrong, I would like to know. I read
this to mean that citizens are free to think what they like in
private. I also take this to mean that citizens are free to discuss
their private practice in our forum and that this discussion would be
under the protection of our rules.

Your upbringing and mine, I think, are similar, yet you go much
farther in support of the Religio than I would have, had I not made
drastic changes in my outlook. As a magistrate you have always
followed the requirements of our laws in a most careful fashion, (for
which you deserve the gratitude of the citizens), showing the utmost
respect for our Roman traditions. Perhaps, should we meet in person
again we will discuss this, but it is something that I think deserves
no comment on my part, being your business alone. In these matters I
think the only proper outlook is to take people at their word and
assume they have made peace with their decisions in their own way.


That is what I think, Cato, since you asked.

optime vale!




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gequitiuscato" <mlcinnyc@...> wrote:
>
> Cato quirites SPD
>
> Salvete omnes.

[SNIP]

> The reason I bring this up in such detail is because the discussion
> has brought the questions to my mind, "What exactly does the religio
> romana encompass in Nova Roma? Is it syncretic? Is it supposed to be?"
>
> I would like to hear from our pontiffs - and practitioners - about the
> answer.
>
> Valete,
>
> Cato
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48068 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Aureliane, I am ahead of you. I have already communicated with
Piscinus and it is just a matter of time. He is a busy man, and to his
credit, a careful one. He needs time to revise. As I said some weeks
ago, these are, in fact, very good times. Anyone who takes our little
family spats here as a sign of anything else just doesn't see the big
picture, in my opinion.

Optime vale, amice, in pace deorum

Agricola


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
>
> Good idea, Agricola. That is definitely concrete. You should also
ask Piscinus Horatianus if you can transfer his articles at SVR into
the NR wiki. His piece of augury is especially excellent. I will ask
a friend with a digital camera to take some photos of my pieces.
>
> Aureliane
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wm_hogue@...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:26 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@ wrote:
>
> [SNIP]
>
> >Are we going to do anything concrete or are we just going to
> > yak-yak-yak.
>
> Salve Aureliane,
>
> I just spent the morning moving articles from the web site to the wiki
> here: http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Ritus
>
> Let's work together to get the grammar fixed, links made, citations
> entered and everything else that needs doing.
>
> I renew my call for citizens to upload lararium photos to the lararium
> article. We also need pictures of paterae, lucernae and all the rest
> for those respective articles.
>
> optime vale
>
> Agricola
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48069 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "drumax" <drumax@...> wrote:
>

[SNIP]

>
> Now I know I have been told that I can just ignore these never
ending missives but then what Nova Roma becomes is 'spam' that I have
to constantly erase...and why would I join a group where 90% of the
messages on the main list are just annoyances and spam?
>

[SNIP]

Salve Amice!

I hope before you walk out you will take a moment to consider this:

I have said here many times that it is a serious (but all too common)
mistake to think that because we call this the "Main List" that this
list represents most of what goes on in Nova Roma.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

This is the place where we all gather to do many things, and sometimes
that means bicker, humans being human, after all.

Most of us do serious work for Nova Roma elsewhere.

This list is not to the taste of all, but there is no obligation to
read it.

I renew my call for all citizens to attach themselves to other
projects and interest groups in Nova Roma, there to enjoy Romanitas
and good company. Information about our official sodalitates is easy
to find in the wiki. Newly elected magistrates are now all on the
prowl for willing bodies to become scribae. The list goes on and on.

It would be well, in addition, for citizens also to subscribe to
Novaroma-Announce, to keep up with just the official announcements.


There is no need to abandon the Res Publica at all, even if you
unsubscribe from this list.

Optime vale!

Agricola
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48070 From: QFabiusMaxmi@aol.com Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Election Question
In a message dated 12/7/2006 4:03:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tau.athanasios@... writes:
I thought Maior was my client? Can she be the client of more than one
person? Or maybe Pompeia is my client also, or maybe I'm her client.
I do not think that that was what he meant. You sprang to her defense like
she was a client and you her patron. But we all know that there is no
clientage in Nova Roma :-)
Since you are the client of Q. Fabius Maximus I guess we are even, by your
own admission QFM "brought you back," and now you are his "attack dog."
I never brought him back as a client. After your end run in the College, I
realized that you really were determined to marginize the Religio. I requested
he return, because he is the most knowledgeable of the Religio scholars and I
wanted to see if the Senate acting as it was in the III century AD was a
feasible solution to our "problem." I never suggested once that he be a client.
I wouldn't insult him. We all are just Pontifices, who disagree with your
religious solution. And you seem to be upset with that.
A couple of years ago you could have been Consul, now you are the attack dog
of a man who only commands nine centuries in a Censoral bid.... still better
than another potential client of his who only commands one century. I know all
about factions, and the only you hail from.
Iulius has always been a strict reconstructionalist, since the time he joined
NR. And yes you are correct he'd make a fine Consul. At least he would know
what he was doing. As for he resigning, yes he did, after being targeted by
a SPAM bomb that filled his mail box with hate mail, on a daily basis. After
he resigned it stopped. Quite different from our Praetor's disappearing act.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48071 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: On Roman Syncretism
Agricola Scauro sal

Thank you for this interesting and helpful piece.

We all, I think, appreciate learning about these differences in
world-view, and I am sure many are happy to know that those charged
with the care of the public cultus think deeply about such things.

This sort of explanation can only help citizens and interested others
to appreciate Roman society more, and perhaps even help them to
illuminate their own inner lives. Thank you for posting it.

Still, not one bit of this gives anyone the right to ridicule, or in
any way stand in judgement of the private beliefs of any person here.
Our FAQ says: "We have absolutely no interest in the private religious
lives of any of our citizens".

The public cultus is one thing, private beliefs are another matter.

optime vale!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gregory.rose@...> wrote:
>
> Sacurus quiritibus SPD.
>
> Syncretism in the ancient world was something quite different from
> modern syncretism.
>
> First, and probably most important, is the difference between the way
> moderns frequently view religion and the way in which the Romans of
> antiquity did. For moderns religion is more about themselves than
> about the Gods: it is a route to self-realisation, self-fulfillment, a
> way to make one happy about oneself. The focus is primarily on the
> self. If religion is primarily about the self, then selecting what
> pleases oneself from a variety of religions with only the principle of
> pleasing oneself as the deciding criterion. In antiquity the primary
> focus was on the Di Immortales, on following the tradition cultus
> handed down from time immemorial to ensure maintenance of the pax
> Deorum. The emphasis was on pleasing the Gods and keeping entact
> humanity's contracts with them. To be sure, men supplicated the Gods
> for what they needed and desired, but man's ability to do so was
> grounded in making sure that the Gods looked favourably upon them by
> adhering precisely to age-old rituals and formulae. Do ut dare was
> predicated precisely on recognition of an asymmetry which required
> that the Gods be placated before they were supplicated. This is very
> different from the modern view.
>
> Second, Roman syncretism was based on theological presuppositions
> different from modern syncretism. Keith Hopkins was right when he
> characterised antiquity as "a world full of Gods." A polytheism which
> saw divine entities everywhere was the norm. Furthermore, many of
> these deities were associated with place. In such an environment it
> was only natural that parallels between deities' functions and
> characteristics would be noted and the idea that, for example, the
> Roman Minerva and the Britannic Sulis were the same divine being,
> Minerva Sulis, arose. This kind of natural syncretism was commonplace
> in the Roman world, and appears to have been encouraged in the process
> of Romanisation. There was also the notion that foreign Gods had
> power: there is evidence for ritual condemnation of the Gods of
> foriegn peoples at war with the Romans, aimed at the Di Immortales
> subjugating the foreign Gods just as Roman armies subjugated foreign
> peoples. It is unsurprising, then, that once a people was conquered
> and the process of Romanisation begun the assimilation of their
> foreign Gods to the Roman pantheon would occur. This did not happen
> in every case, but, again, it was the norm for conquered peoples.
>
> Third, the introduction of foreign cults into the religio publica was
> primarily a function of prodigy. A grave crisis or miraculous portent
> signaled the acceptability of a foreign cult's alliance with Rome and
> her Gods -- Magna Deorum Mater during the Punic Wars and Isis in the
> reign of Gaius Caligula are two salient examples. Worship of the
> foreign was always regarded as aberrant by the Romans unless the
> foreign cult was part of the officially sanctioned sacra peregrina or
> a result of Romanising assimilation.
>
> Fourth, the first great monotheism, Judaism, provided mightily
> impervious to such syncretism in the Roman world precisely because it
> rejected polytheism absolutely. When there was a Sanhedrin, a Jew who
> embraced avodah zarah (and both the Hellenic cults and the Religio
> Romana were archetypes of avodah zarah, as even the most cursory
> examination of the Talmud reveals) was subject to capital punishment.
> Judaism's definition of the divine excluded the polytheism which was
> at the Religio Romana's base. Likewise, the second great monotheism
> rejected Roman syncretism. As Cato has pointed out, Christianity
> denies that other religions, the Religio Romana included, are paths to
> the divine. If Christianity had been acceptant of polytheism, most
> Romans would have regarded it as less of a threat, and there would
> have been rather fewer Christian martyrs. The chance for such an
> accommodation died with Arianism. The syncretism of Christianity was
> not the positive syncretism of the Religio Romana, but rather a
> negative syncretism: the church was prepared to coopt rituals and
> holidays of the polytheistic world in order to make its message more
> palatable to a polytheist audience, but it always changed these
> borrowings in such a way as to focus on Christianity's exclusive claim
> to the divine.
>
> Fifth, ritual magic was abhorred by the Romans, most especially in the
> Republican period, because it was associated with invocation of
> malevolent spirits to work mischief or greater evils; veneficium was
> the generic term for such magic, and came to be associated with murder
> by poisoning. Ritual magic was the province of foreigners; some
> Romans might stoop to purchasing their services, but the social stigma
> if discovered was enormous.
>
> It is on these grounds that I reject modern syncretism as incompatible
> with the Religio Romana. It approaches religion in a way alien to
> Roman syncretism. It embraces a melange of religions with little
> respect for the principles on which those religions were based,
> especially so when it attempts to syncretise Judaism or Christianity,
> and it allows for practices which the Romans scorned.
>
> I do not condemn Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, or Wicca, but I do
> assert that they have nothing to do with Religio Romana and assert
> that their syncretistic practice with the Religio Romana is utterly
> un-Roman. People can tout all they like how wonderful the modern
> world is letting people blend all sorts of religions in their belief
> systems. It's quite true that the modern world encourages this. But
> the argument is no refutation of my contention, for the grounds on
> which I reject it is that the syncretism of Rome is not the syncretism
> of the modern world. The Religio Romana is not some generic
> "paganism" -- it is a specific polytheism with a specific tradition
> and a specific set of conditions for a unique approach to syncretism.
>
> Valete.
>
> Scaurus
>
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48072 From: Shoshana Hathaway Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Temple of Venus
Salve, Diana Octavia Aventina,

I am charmed, delighted, and deeply touched by your Temple of Venus. It is an absolutely lovely site; both beautiful and informative. Thank you.

Vale Bene,
C. Maria Caeca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48073 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: On Roman Syncretism
Scaurus Agricolae SPD.

Thank you for your kind words on my remarks on syncretism.

There is history here of which you are, perhaps, unaware. The reasons
for the Colllegium Pontificum's removal of Maior as sacerdos aedis
Magnae Deorum Matris were precisely her unwillingness to refrain from
intruding her private religious beliefs into the public cultus of that
deity and her public ridiculing of a public caerimonia invovling blood
sacrifice because it offended her modern sensibilities. She has been
the one who has tried to push her private religious beliefs on the
sacra publica and she has been unapologetic about it. I hardly think
that a little sarcasm about the beliefs she has tried to intrude in
the sacra publica is all that momentous, particularly when she was
talking about calling a scholar whom I know thinks paganism in the
modern world is more than a bit daft. But your sensibilities in this
regard will probably differ from my own.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48074 From: Stephen Gallagher Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Market day like chat on the main list
Salvete Romans

I have been thinking that it might be a nice change of pace to hold a Market day like chat on the main list.

During this time period the citizens of Nova Roma and not their elected leaders would have command of the forum. Over a period of a few days our magistrates and their staffs would refrain, by consensus and not by command ,from posting.

It would be an opportunity for the government of Nova Roma to listen and for the citizens to speak.

I for one would love to hear from the vast and silent majority.

I await your eloquent, informative and fun postings.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus







----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...<mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] To the Praetores


Are you on the same list as the rest of us, Modianus Pontiff. In the last two weeks, I have seen very little dignity and respect coming from individuals who are candidates, magistrates, pontiffs, and Senators. I was actually asking the Praetores for some peace; I do not really expect harmony from most of the leadership of NR. It is really hard to see the forest when you are one of the trees.

Vale.

Aurelianus


-----Original Message-----
From: tau.athanasios@...<mailto:tau.athanasios@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] To the Praetores

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aureliano salutem dicit

I appreciate your desire to promote peace and harmony in Nova Roma.
However, a Praetor is not going to silence this Consul from speaking his
mind and promoting what he feels is the greater good. At this point I am
less concerned with any Religio Reform package than I am with our
pontificies treating people with some dignity and respect.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 12/6/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...<mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...> <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...<mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>> wrote:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
>
> Dii Immortales have very little to do with the sort of argument that the
> general membership is seeing right now from members of its alleged "sacred
> and
> secular leadership."
>
> This is definitely part of the reason why Nova Roma is losing citizens
> although it is not the only one. I very much believe that the decretum
> that was
> recently passed is a complete waste of time because I have seen absolutely
> no
> sign of the flamen of Quirinus has been attending to restoring the Pax
> Deorum.
>
> I suggest to the Praetores that they ask the following individuals to
> refrain from posting any more discussion concerning the reform of the CP,
> the
> decretum, or each other until Saturnalia begins in the hope that we can
> have a
> little goodwill towards each other for a few days:
>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> M. Hortensia Maior
> C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> C. Iulius Scaurus
> & anyone else who wants to chime in on these shenanigans.
>
> Vadite in pace Cereris.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48075 From: M. Lucretius Agricola Date: 2006-12-07
Subject: Re: Market day like chat on the main list
Salve!

We have been keeping the dates of the next four Market Day chats on
the wiki main page. I can't keep that going unless I know for sure the
nundinal letter for next year. Will it be "F"? That would make the
first Market Day next year Saturday 6 January, (ante diem VIII idus
Ianuarias). Is that correct?

optime vale

Agricola


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Romans
>
> I have been thinking that it might be a nice change of pace to hold
a Market day like chat on the main list.
>
> During this time period the citizens of Nova Roma and not their
elected leaders would have command of the forum. Over a period of a
few days our magistrates and their staffs would refrain, by consensus
and not by command ,from posting.
>
> It would be an opportunity for the government of Nova Roma to listen
and for the citizens to speak.
>
> I for one would love to hear from the vast and silent majority.
>
> I await your eloquent, informative and fun postings.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...<mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] To the Praetores
>
>
> Are you on the same list as the rest of us, Modianus Pontiff. In
the last two weeks, I have seen very little dignity and respect coming
from individuals who are candidates, magistrates, pontiffs, and
Senators. I was actually asking the Praetores for some peace; I do not
really expect harmony from most of the leadership of NR. It is really
hard to see the forest when you are one of the trees.
>
> Vale.
>
> Aurelianus
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tau.athanasios@...<mailto:tau.athanasios@...>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] To the Praetores
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Fl. Galerio Aureliano salutem dicit
>
> I appreciate your desire to promote peace and harmony in Nova Roma.
> However, a Praetor is not going to silence this Consul from
speaking his
> mind and promoting what he feels is the greater good. At this
point I am
> less concerned with any Religio Reform package than I am with our
> pontificies treating people with some dignity and respect.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
> On 12/6/06, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...<mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>
<PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...<mailto:PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...>> wrote:
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus SPD.
> >
> > Dii Immortales have very little to do with the sort of argument
that the
> > general membership is seeing right now from members of its
alleged "sacred
> > and
> > secular leadership."
> >
> > This is definitely part of the reason why Nova Roma is losing
citizens
> > although it is not the only one. I very much believe that the
decretum
> > that was
> > recently passed is a complete waste of time because I have seen
absolutely
> > no
> > sign of the flamen of Quirinus has been attending to restoring
the Pax
> > Deorum.
> >
> > I suggest to the Praetores that they ask the following
individuals to
> > refrain from posting any more discussion concerning the reform
of the CP,
> > the
> > decretum, or each other until Saturnalia begins in the hope that
we can
> > have a
> > little goodwill towards each other for a few days:
> >
> > Fl. Galerius Aurelianus
> > M. Hortensia Maior
> > C. Fabius Buteo Modianus
> > M. Moravius Piscinus Horatianus
> > C. Iulius Scaurus
> > & anyone else who wants to chime in on these shenanigans.
> >
> > Vadite in pace Cereris.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> __________________________________________________________
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Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48076 From: A. Tullia Scholastica Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Om shanti:, shanti;, shanti:
A. Tullia Scholastica quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque omnibus S.P.D.

A few thoughts in Sanskrit, translated below:

Om sahanaa vavatu saha nau bhunaktu

saha viiryam karavaavahai. Tejasvi navadhiitamastu

ma vidvishaavahai. Om shanti:, shanti:, shanti:

(Taittiriya Upanishad)

[doubled vowels represent long ones in Sanskrit, which are written with
signs different from those of short vowels, not merely diacritics; e and o
are monophthongized, and always long. The colon represents a similar sign
in Sanskrit denoting a pronounced final h. Word divisions do not correspond
to meaning as words are phonologically combined].

My the lord protect us together. May he nourish us together. May we
work together combining our strength for the good of humankind. May our
learning be luminous and purposeful. MAY WE NEVER HATE ONE ANOTHER. [my
emphasis]. May there be peace, peace, peace. (translation modified slightly
from unattributed translator in R. Shankar and G. Harrison, Chants of India.
I have had three years of graduate school Sanskrit, but it was a while
ago...).

Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48077 From: dicconf Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, gequitiuscato wrote:

> Cato quirites SPD
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Try as I could, I cannot help commenting on some of what has been said.
>
> First, the idea of religious syncretism - the idea that many beliefs
> compliment and support each other - is a very nice and hospitable one.
>
> The only problem is that some religions, among them Christianity, do
> not by their very nature *allow* for syncretism. Being a Christian
> means believing a very specific set of things; no matter how you slice
> it, no matter how good your intentions, no matter how much you want
> someone else's beliefs to be recognized as personally valid, if the
> foundation is not there, it is simply not Christianity. Christianity
> says there is only one God and that there is only one way to interact
> with that God - through acknowledgement of, and obedience to, Himself
> made Incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ and the Faith passed on
> through His Body, the Church. Anything - *anything* - else is not
> Christianity. Gnosticism, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Taoism, Judaism,
> Shintoism, Protestantism (just kidding) - all these are wonderful in
> and of themselves - but they are not, and cannot be, Christianity.
> Not because *they* are not willing to flex or bend enough to encompass
> some of the teachings of Christ, but because Christianity simply does
> not accept them as full and efficacious avenues to God.

This is theoretically true, but was not even theoretically true during
the early ages of the Christian Church. Many writings from the first
several centuries mention Roman citizens, and others living in contact
with Christianity, as maintaining shrines in which Christ was one of
several deities honored. (Not hard, since many Christian doctrines and
legends paralleled those of other gods or heroes.) Not until the
Christian takeover of the Empire did Christianity venture to "drop the
mask" and show the absolutist intolerance which Cato describes -- first by
harassing legislation, then by police persecution, then frankly by mob
violence. But this was five centuries or so after the fall of the
Republic.

And though many modern Christians would assent to its truth in theory, not
so many would be willling to push it to practical denial of religious
rights to those of other faiths, which is to say, "to accept them as full
and efficacious avenues to god".

> The reason I bring this up in such detail is because the discussion
> has brought the questions to my mind, "What exactly does the religio
> romana encompass in Nova Roma? Is it syncretic? Is it supposed to be?"
>
> I would like to hear from our pontiffs - and practitioners - about the
> answer.

It appears clear from history that the religio romana was syncretic both
in policy -- by identifying "foreign" gods with those of the Jovian
pantheon, that all might worship freely -- and in practice, by absorbing
"foreign" beliefs into their own system, as in the wholesale takeover of
Greek mythology. Those who were not thus absorbed, like the Hebrews, were
not excluded by the Romans, but by themselves.

-- Publius Livius Triarius

The gods want spiritual fruits, not religious nuts
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48078 From: Gregory Rose Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: Reply to Scaurus [Regarding "Reform" of the Religio]
Scaurus Triario SPD.

> This is theoretically true, but was not even theoretically true during
> the early ages of the Christian Church. Many writings from the first
> several centuries mention Roman citizens, and others living in contact
> with Christianity, as maintaining shrines in which Christ was one of
> several deities honored. (Not hard, since many Christian doctrines and
> legends paralleled those of other gods or heroes.) Not until the
> Christian takeover of the Empire did Christianity venture to "drop the
> mask" and show the absolutist intolerance which Cato describes -- first by
> harassing legislation, then by police persecution, then frankly by mob
> violence. But this was five centuries or so after the fall of the
> Republic.

Other than the reference to Severus Alexander in the Historia Augusta
(which most scholars regard as a later Christian interpolation), what
sources do you have in mind? There's no indication in the early
patristic literature of which I am aware that the borrowing of Christ
over into the polytheistic pantheon was regarded with anything but
horror by early Christians. A handful of Arian thinkers about whom we
know only allusively apparently were prepared to fit some of the
polytheistic Gods as demigods in a Neoplatonic-Arian Christian
cosmology, but that was well after Constantine and, while we don't
know much about them, that they were a very small minority of
Christians is almost certain. Also the rupture betweeen a
Christianising state and the traditional religion was rather more
complex and less abrupt than you imply (there was still at least one
polytheist praetorian prefect when Theodosius II banned the cultus).
I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on these subjects.

Vale.

Scaurus
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48079 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: a.d. VI Id. Dec.
OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VI Idus Decembris; haec dies comitialis est.

Today is the Tiberinalia, a festival dedicated to the god Tiberinus,
the god of the River Tiber.

Tiberinus figures very early in the pre-history of the City of Rome.
The arrival of the Trojans in Italy began peacefully. King Latinus,
the Italian ruler, extended his hospitality, hoping that Aeneas would
prove to be the foreigner whom, according to a prophecy, his daughter
Lavinia was supposed to marry. But Latinus�s wife, Amata, had other
ideas. She meant for Lavinia to marry Turnus, a local suitor. Amata
and Turnus cultivated enmity toward the newly arrived Trojans.
Meanwhile, Ascanius hunted a stag that was a pet of the local
herdsmen. A fight broke out, and several people were killed. Turnus,
riding this current of anger, began a war. Aeneas, at the suggestion
of the river god Tiberinus, sailed north up the Tiber to seek military
support among the neighboring tribes:

"'T was night; and weary nature lull'd asleep
The birds of air, and fishes of the deep,
And beasts, and mortal men. The Trojan chief
Was laid on Tiber's banks, oppress'd with grief,
And found in silent slumber late relief.
Then, thro' the shadows of the poplar wood,
Arose the father of the Roman flood;
An azure robe was o'er his body spread,
A wreath of shady reeds adorn'd his head:
Thus, manifest to sight, the god appear'd,
And with these pleasing words his sorrow cheer'd:
'Undoubted offspring of ethereal race,
O long expected in this promis'd place!
Who thro' the foes hast borne thy banish'd gods,
Restor'd them to their hearths, and old abodes;
This is thy happy home, the clime where fate
Ordains thee to restore the Trojan state.
Fear not! The war shall end in lasting peace,
And all the rage of haughty Juno cease.
And that this nightly vision may not seem
Th' effect of fancy, or an idle dream,
A sow beneath an oak shall lie along,
All white herself, and white her thirty young.
When thirty rolling years have run their race,
Thy son Ascanius, on this empty space,
Shall build a royal town, of lasting fame,
Which from this omen shall receive the name.
Time shall approve the truth. For what remains,
And how with sure success to crown thy pains,
With patience next attend. A banish'd band,
Driv'n with Evander from th' Arcadian land,
Have planted here, and plac'd on high their walls;
Their town the founder Pallanteum calls,
Deriv'd from Pallas, his great-grandsire's name:
But the fierce Latians old possession claim,
With war infesting the new colony.
These make thy friends, and on their aid rely.
To thy free passage I submit my streams.
Wake, son of Venus, from thy pleasing dreams;
And, when the setting stars are lost in day,
To Juno's pow'r thy just devotion pay;
With sacrifice the wrathful queen appease:
Her pride at length shall fall, her fury cease.
When thou return'st victorious from the war,
Perform thy vows to me with grateful care.
The god am I, whose yellow water flows
Around these fields, and fattens as it goes:
Tiber my name; among the rolling floods
Renown'd on earth, esteem'd among the gods.
This is my certain seat. In times to come,
My waves shall wash the walls of mighty Rome.'" - Tiberinus to Aeneas;
Vergil, The Aeneid VIII

Tiberinus also played an essential role in the lives of Romulus and
Remus. Before their lives began, Romulus and Remus's grandfather
Numitor and his brother Amulius received the throne of Alba Longa upon
their father�s death. Numitor received the sovereign powers as his
birth right while Amulius received the royal treasury, including the
gold Aeneas brought with him from Troy. But because Amulius held the
treasury, thus having more power than his brother, he dethroned
Numitor as the rightful king. Out of fear that Numitor�s daughter,
Rhea Silvia, would produce children that would one day overthrow him
as king, he forced Rhea to become a Vestal Virgin, priestesses sworn
to celibacy.

However, one night Mars, the god of war, came to Rhea in the temple of
Vesta and she bore him two twin boys of remarkable size and beauty,
later named Romulus and Remus. Amulius was enraged and had Rhea placed
in prison and ordered the death of the twins by exposure. However, the
servant ordered to kill the twins could not. He placed the two in a
cradle and laid the cradle on the banks of the Tiber river and went
away. The river, which was in flood, rose and gently carried the
cradle and the twins downstream. Romulus and Remus were rescued by
the river god Tiberinus and placed the twins upon the Palatine Hill.
There, they were nursed by a she-wolf underneath a fig-tree and were
fed by a woodpecker, two animals that were sacred to Mars.

"Near this place grew a wild fig-tree, which they called Ruminalis,
either from Romulus (as it is vulgarly thought), or from ruminating,
because cattle did usually in the heat of the day seek cover under it,
and there chew the cud; or, better, from the suckling of these
children there, for the ancients called the dug or teat of any
creature ruma; and there is a tutelar goddess of the rearing of
children whom they still call Rumilia, in sacrificing to whom they use
no wine, but make libations of milk. While the infants lay here,
history tells us, a she-wolf nursed them, and a woodpecker constantly
fed and watched them; these creatures are esteemed holy to the god
Mars; the woodpecker the Latins still especially worship and honour.
Which things, as much as any, gave credit to what the mother of the
children said, that their father was the god Mars; though some say
that it was a mistake put upon her by Amulius, who himself had come to
her dressed up in armour." - Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Romulus"

Romulus and Remus were then discovered by Faustulus, a shepherd for
Amulius, who brought the children to his home. Faustulus and his wife,
Acca Larentia, raised the boys as their own.


Today is also the final day of the Faunalia.


"What slender youth, bedew'd with liquid odors,
Courts thee on roses in some pleasant cave,
Pyrrha? For whom bind'st thou
In wreaths thy golden hair,
Plain in thy neatness? O how oft shall he
Of faith and changed gods complain, and seas
Rough with black winds, and storms
Unwonted shall admire!
Who now enjoys thee credulous, all gold,
Who, always vacant, always amiable
Hopes thee, of flattering gales
Unmindful. Hapless they
To whom thou untried seem'st fair. Me, in my vow'd
Picture, the sacred wall declares to have hung,
My dank and dropping weeds
To the stern god of sea." - Horace, Odes I.5 "To Pyrrha" (trans. John
Milton)

On this day in 68 B.C., the poet Horace was born. Horace created many
of the rules of stagecraft that still exist today:

"A tragic hero should not speak in the same rhythm as a comic one.
Characters should be consistent with themselves, and should conform to
the general expectation: boys should be childish, youth fond of sport,
reckless and fickle, mature men should be businesslike and prudent,
while old men should remain praisers of the past, sluggish and
grudging. The poet should not try to change the character of
well-known figures of the stage, such as Agamemnon, Medea, Hercules;
at the same time, he should not stick too closely to the stock of
subjects. When beginning a play, avoid pomposity and grandiloquence;
but when once the play is launched, rush the spectator on through the
action, leaving out the ungrateful parts of the story. Do not present
ugly things on the stage. The traditional structure of plots should be
used, but such contrivances as the god-from-the-machine should not be
worked to death. Keep to the three-actor play, and remember to use the
chorus for the expression of moral sentiments and religious tone.
Above all things, stick to the Greek models. Some people may have been
fools enough to admire Plautus, but that is no reason why everyone
should do so. Plautus is rude and barbarous, not worthy of study
beside the Greeks. Every play should either instruct or
delight--better if it does both. "'Mix pleasure and profit, and you
are safe.'" - from M.F. Bellinger, "A Short History of the Drama" pp.
89-90.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Plutarch, Vergil, Horace
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48080 From: Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: To Conscientious Citizens - Candidates Needed
Cn. Lentulus quaestor: Quiritibus: salutem:


Conscientious citizens!

The Republic still needs:

3 candidates for quaestor,
1 candidate for diribitor and
1 for editor!

I see disappointedly that many of us have enough time to debute and to hate each other. Do you have any time for the service of our organization? Citizens of Nova Roma, step forward to run for offices: not for you -- for our republic!

Ex-candidates who felt in the last election!

Here is the new opportunity to offer yourselves as servant of the common benefit. You who have not been elected consul, praetor, aedilis: now run for quaestor, diribitor or editor!

If there won't be candidates for quaestor, I will offer myself for another term, like Q. Metellus Pius did having been elected quaestor and now running for rogator. I also will run for both magistracy and that will be shame on you. So increased the inactivity that NR needs officers holding multiple magistracies.

Valete!


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
R O G A T O R C A N D I D A T U S
Q U A E S T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis C. Fabii Buteonis
Scriba Censoris Cn. Equitii Marini
Scriba Aedilis Curulis T. Iulii Sabini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Latinista, Classicus Philologus

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Poco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi
http://mail.yahoo.it

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48081 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: And now for something really different
Innkeeper: That will be II as for the bread.
Customer: Very good.
Innkeeper: And II h.s. for the side dishes.
Customer: Worth every quadrans.
Innkeeper: And IIII h.s. for the girl.
Customer: Cheap at twice the price.
Innkeeper: And III as for the feed for your donkey.
Customer: Ercule. That donkey is going to ruin me.

Original Roman joke. Yeah, it is old.

Aurelianus


-----Original Message-----
From: spqr753@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:16 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] And now for something really different


Salvete Romans

Teacher: What is a forum?

Pupil: Two-um plus two-um!

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

And now for something really different

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48082 From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: And now for something really different--Brought to you by the g
Aurelianus: How many Roman traditionalists does it take to light a candle?
Paulinus: I don't know. How many Roman traditionalist does it take to light a candle?
Aurelianus: None. Oil lamps were good enough for Cato . . .


Aurelianus: I heard an old pontiff talking down to a secularist the other day and he started to say that in his day . . .
Paulinus: What did the secularist say to the old pontiff?
Aurelianus: In your day, you probably called fire, "Ow, ow, hot thing!"


Paulinus: (On meeting Aurelianus with client carrying a large leather container) Where are you going?
Aurelianus: I'm taking my case to court.
& later
Paulinus: (On meeting Aurelianus with clients carrying leather container and ladder) Where are you going now?
Aurelianus: I'm taking my case to a higher court.


Paulinus: I say, Aureliane, what is a seven course dinner for a barbarian?
Aurelianus: Six amphorae of cervesa and a boiled ox.





-----Original Message-----
From: spqr753@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 5:34 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] And now for something really different


Salvete Romans

Yo mama is so old her birth certificate is in Roman numerals.

Q: How many patrons does it take to light an oil-lamp?

A: None: he would have one of his clients do it for him, of course.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48083 From: Marcus Audens Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: "Pilum" Article Series -- Canal Construction In the Ancient World
--Beginnings (Part I)--

The use of artificial water channels for the advantages of supplying water to a city or a town as well as for the purpose of irrigating crops has been around for a very long time. Very often the continuation of a civilization depended heavily on such construction even in geographical areas such as Central Italy. Certainly this was an even greater necessity in the more arid lands of the Middle East.

Water is and was one of the great mysteries of life. It gives life to plants which otherwise lie lifeless, which was a mystery to the ancients. Strong enough to split mountains asunder, and yet delicate enough to cleanse a lady's gentle skin, water is a mystery even today. It becomes steam when heated, and ice when cooled, each aspect having it's own set of attributes to which man must adjust and yet which in each case furnishes man with opportunity for a better life. Thales, a philosopher of ancient Greece, said that water was the cause of all things -- (that which is more than the cause), and Pindar stated, but with less vigor, "Best of all things is water."(1)

From those necessities, man came to learn the advantages of managing water, by controlling it's flow through the use of sluices, by bringing in water from long distances over structures which were graded to insure a steady flow of the life-giving fluid, and to master the technology necessary to carry water over wide variations of topographical terrain.

It can also be said that from the canals arose the ancient empires, for it was the canals which funneled both water and goods to the great inland markets of the ancient world. As the empires rose so too did the canals, and as they languished so too did the canal systems which had supported them. The control of water began man's mastery of the earth in many facets of consideration.(2)

The dating of such canals go back into the dimness of history well beyond 3000 BC in Egypt, where very early it was realized that water management of the River Nile was necessary to guarantee any kind of stability in growing food-stuffs in the Nile Valley. It is certainly possible that some of these waterways were also used for transportation by such craft as could be used in these sometime rather small irrigation passages. It is noted by a discovered inscription, that in the period of the Sixth Dynasty (2300 - 2180 BC) Pepi I who was determined to explore the upper reaches of the Nile River beyond the First Cataract which is located near Aswan made an effort to establish some aids to navigation by the following action. Pepi I gave orders to build structures which were designed to pass vessels around the Cataract for the purposes of navigation. In response to that order, the following inscription was left for posterity by Uni who was, at that time, the Governor of Upper Egypt:

"His Majesty sent me to dig five canals in the South and to make three cargo boats and four tow-boats of acacia wood. Then the dark-skinned chieftains... drew timber for them, and I did the whole in a single year." (3)

Later an alternative method was used to go around the Second Cataract. This was a slipway, which was constructed somewhere near Wadi Halfa. This slipway was approximately 3km long, and which enabled boats to pass around this second great obstruction to Navigation on the Nile. Sometime after this a further construction of irrigation canals was completed in Egypt, some of which clearly were used for transportation as well as the management of water for agriculture. The following reference in the "Book Of The Dead" states:

"to sail for ever in a boat along these intricate canals where the reeds are continually bending in the heavenly wind" (4).

This would seem to give proof to the fact that canals were used for transportation as well as for irrigation in ancient Egypt.

(To be continued)

(1))--Robert Payne, "The Canal Builders,"1959, P. 2;

(2)--"Op. Cit," P. 4;

(3)--"Op. Cit," P. 12 - 13, (quoting J. H. Breasted, "Ancient Records of Egypt," 1906, I, 324);

(4)--"Op. Cit." 16-17, (based on E. A. Wallis Budge, "The Book of the Dead," 1913.

References:--

--Charles Hadfield, "World Canals, Inland Navigation Past, and Present," Facts On File Publications, New York, 1986;

--Robert Payne, "The Canal Builders, The Story of Canal Engineers Through The Ages," The Macmillan Co.., New York, 1959

Respectfully Submitted:

Marcus Audens



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48084 From: Lucius Arminius Faustus Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: IO SATURNALIA!
SATURNALIA IS COMING, QUIRITES!

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
Group: Nova-Roma Message: 48085 From: gequitiuscato Date: 2006-12-08
Subject: Re: And now for something really different--Brought to you by the E
CATO: How many Nova Romans does it take to change a light bulb?

MORAVIUS PISCINUS, APOLLONIUS CORDUS, and IULIUS SCAURUS (with
objections): Such number as may be deemed necessary to perform
the stated task in a timely and efficient manner within the strictures
of the following agreement:

Whereas the party of the first part, also known as "The Citizen", and
the party of the second part, also known as "The Light Bulb", do
hereby and forthwith agree to a transaction wherein the party of the
second part (Light Bulb) shall be removed from the current position as
a result of failure to perform previously agreed upon duties, i.e.,
the lighting, elucidation, and otherwise illumination of the area
ranging from the front (north) door, through the entry way,
terminating at an area just inside the primary living area, demarcated
by the beginning of the carpet, any spill-over illumination being at
the option of the party of the second part (Light Bulb) and not
required by the aforementioned agreement between the parties. The
aforementioned removal transaction shall include, but not be limited
to, the following steps:

1.) The party of the first part (The Citizen) shall, with or without
elevation at his option, by means of a chair, step stool, ladder or
any other means of elevation, grasp the party of the second part
(Light Bulb) and rotate the party of the second part (Light Bulb) in a
counterclockwise direction, said direction being nonnegotiable. Said
grasping and rotation of the party of the second part (Light Bulb)
shall be undertaken by the party of the first part (Citizen) with
every possible caution by the party of the first part (Citizen) to
maintain the structural integrity of the party of the second part
(Light Bulb), notwithstanding the aforementioned failure of the party
of the second part (Light Bulb) to perform the customary and agreed
upon duties. The foregoing notwithstanding, however, both parties
stipulate that structural failure of the party of the second part
(Light Bulb) may be incidental to the aforementioned failure to
perform and in such case the party of the first part (Citizen) shall
be held blameless for such structural failure insofar as this
agreement is concerned so long as the nonnegotiable directional
codicil (counterclockwise) is observed by the party of the first part
(Citizen) throughout.

2.) Upon reaching a point where the party of the second part (Light
Bulb) becomes separated from the party of the third part
("Receptacle"), the party of the first part (Citizen) shall have the
option of disposing of the party of the second part (Light Bulb) in a
manner consistent with the Constitution and all applicable state,
local and federal statutes.

3.) Once separation and disposal have been achieved, the party of the
first part (Citizen) shall have the option of beginning installation
of the party of the fourth part ("New Light Bulb"). This installation
shall occur in a manner consistent with the reverse of the procedures
described in step one of this selfsame document, being careful to note
that the rotation should occur in a clockwise direction, said
direction also being nonnegotiable and only until the party of the
fourth part (New Light Bulb) becomes snug in the party of the third
part (Receptacle) and in fact becomes the party of the second part
(Light Bulb).

NOTE: The above described steps may be performed, at the option of the
party of the first part (Citizen), by said party of the first part
(Citizen), by his or her heirs and assigns, or by any and all persons
authorized by him or her to do so, the objective being to produce a
level of illumination in the immediate vicinity of the aforementioned
front (north) door consistent with maximization of ingress and revenue
for the party of the fifth part, also known as "The Firm".