M. Hortensia V. Galeriae spd;
please post a pic at the Wiki, we'd all like to see the
temple. One thing; Roman women did not take their husband's nomen, so
have him choose another gens besides Galeria, otherwise it sounds like
you've married your brother!
been vale
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> It should probably be noted that the actual building of the temple
> altars and stonework for the mundus, carving of the omphalos and all
> manual labor were done by my husband Corey, who plans to apply for
> proper citizenship soon under the name Titus Galerius Malleus. He

does

> not like computers, and prefers to work with his hands, so you
> probably won't see him at all, but I thought he deserved the credit
> for the work. I did the alignment and planning for the temple,
> dedication for each altar and I maintain and clean the temple and

make

> regular offerings there, when it's not 30 degrees outside.
>
> Valete,
> Violentilla Galeria Saltatrix
>

Ex hoc edicto, cives scribas meos una cum officiis privilegiisque omnibus praescriptis legibus Novae Romae designo. L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur, A. Tullia Scholastica, C. Marcius Crispus et C. Aurlia Falco Silvana scribae creantur. Quidquam ius iurandum non poscentur.

Hoc edictum statim valet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Creation of Scribae

I hereby appoint the following citizens as my scribes, with all the obligations and privileges prescribed by the laws of Nova Roma. L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur, A. Tullia Scholastica, C. Aurelia Falco Silvana, and C. Marcius Crispus and are appointed scribae. No oath shall be required of them.

C. Marcius Crispus' appointment is contingent upon his becoming assidui prior to the Kalends of March of this year.

This edict is effective immediately.

Given under my hand this fifteenth day of January 2760 a.u.c. (15 January 2007 C.E.) in the consulship of L. Armnius Faustus and Ti. Galerius Paulinus.

T. Artoria Marcella

Note: This edict was posted to the Curule Aediles Wiki webpage yesterday, thus going into effect on the 15th rather than today's date of the 16th.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus Marca Hortensia sal.

The Galeri might worry about that if we resided in Regio Kentucky (18
million citizens; 23 nomen) but here in Austrorientalis the gens Galeria are so
numerous that it is more likely to be a fourth or fifth cousin than a sibling.
Besides, it was not uncommon for plebeians with the same nomen from a
different domus or regio to marry in Roma Antiqua and when one considers the vast
number of freedmen from a common master during the Republic, it would not be
that much of a problem. Fortunately for Violentilla and her husband, Nova Roma
has not yet defined the three types of marriage; which should be a concern
for those who seek a sacred office which requires confarreatio.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve.

Actually, Violentilla is correct that her husband did all the heavy work in
the creation of the templum. He is a very talented individual who can smith,
build, repair, remodel a kitchen, take care of horses & other livestock,
shoot a deer while wearing only pajamas, dress the deer, and keep his wife
happy. If Violentilla could clone him, she could become very rich selling copies
of him off as an (almost) perfect husband & lifemate.

Please don't throw things at me, Violentilla, the above was meant to be
complimentary. Honest.

Galerius Aurelianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio sal;
Flavi Galeri, Censor G. Fabius Quintilianus ran on a
platform of name reform. He promised if elected censor he would
reform Nova Roma nomenclature to historical Republican roots and get
rid of the terrible mess we had. He was elected & did that. Censor
Gn. Equitius Marinus continued his good work.

Both our present censors M. Octavius Gracchus and G. Fabius Buteo
Modianus, reformed their names as examples. And it was hard for
both. Gracchus, formerly Germanicus, was one of the earliest
citizens of Nova Roma and Buteo Modianus loved Gens Modia. But they
would never wish to undo Censor Buteo Quintillianus' promise & hard
work.

Nova Roma is not a role-creation game like the SCA, so unless
Saltatrix is an actual relation or cousin of her husband or they had
at least the same last names they should not share the same nomen.
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

> The Galeri might worry about that if we resided in Regio Kentucky

(18

> million citizens; 23 nomen) but here in Austrorientalis the gens

Galeria are so

> numerous that it is more likely to be a fourth or fifth cousin

than a sibling.

> Besides, it was not uncommon for plebeians with the same nomen

from a

> different domus or regio to marry in Roma Antiqua and when one

considers the vast

> number of freedmen from a common master during the Republic, it

would not be

> that much of a problem. Fortunately for Violentilla and her

husband, Nova Roma

> has not yet defined the three types of marriage; which should be

a concern

> for those who seek a sacred office which requires confarreatio.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hodie est ante diem XVI Kalendas Februarius; haec dies comitialis est.


"When this day is over, Phoebus, you will leave Capricorn,
And take your course through the sign of the Water-Bearer." - Ovid,
FASTI, Book I


"But when they found they were accomplishing nothing, since the
embassies from Romulus opposed them and courted the Sabine people both
by their words and by their actions, they were vexed at the waste of
time — for the Sabines were forever affecting delays and putting off
to distant dates the deliberation concerning the war — and resolved to
make war upon the Romans by themselves alone, believing that their own
strength, if the three cities joined forces, was sufficient to conquer
one inconsiderable city. This was their plan: but they did not all
assemble together promptly enough in one camp, since the Caeninenses,
who seemed to be most eager in promoting the war, rashly set out ahead
of the others. When these men, then, had taken the field and were
wasting the country that bordered on their own, Romulus led out his
army, and unexpectedly falling upon the enemy while they were as yet
off their guard, he made himself master of their camp, which was but
just completed. Then following close upon the heels of those who fled
into the city, where the inhabitants had not as yet learned of the
defeat of their forces, and finding the walls unguarded and the gates
unbarred, he took the town by storm; and when the king of the
Caeninenses met him with a strong body of men, he fought with him, and
slaying him with his own hands, stripped him of his arms." - Dionysius
of Halicarnassus, "Roman Antiquities" 2.33


Today is held in honor of Felicitas, the goddess of good luck and
prosperity. She personifies happy events and serendipity; in the
later Republic and the Empire she was a particular favorite of
successful commanders.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ovid

Valete omnes.

If he cannot register in the gens name that he wishes, he will not
register at all. This means no taxes from him, since I am a taxpayer
and he would be as well. If I had not said he were my husband,it woud
not be public knowledge, and perhaps that is the secret? To lie and not
let anyone know of attachments outside of NR? So, I married my cousin,
that doesn't sound so bad. Or my brother--think of me as Drusilla, I
don't care! He will simply use the name when we go to Roman events
without joining NR and he will not persue the study of Vulcanus worship
within NR, which he is quite interested in. Seems to me it should be up
to the materfamilias whether or not a gens should be joined by an
applicant, and not the censors--but that would be too logical, right?

Authenticity is a lovely thing and awe-inspiring for many of you, I know
that. But for my husband, he just wants to register a name he likes and
hang out with the rest of the family--he could care less about reform,
republicanism or the brewings on this board. If his name will not pass,
he will just not bother.

Violentilla Galeria Saltatrix,
incestuous and uppity woman.

As a reminder, when making an appointment of scribes, accensi, or other
assistants, the appointing magistrate *must* record this in the Album
Civium (by logging in, going to "Prefs", then "Your Offices") in order
for these scribae to receive credit on the web site and century points.

I've seen several appointments in the past week that were not properly
recorded in the Album Civium. These scribae will not receive credit
for their service until their supervisors make the appointments on the
web site.

The Censores and our scribae do *not* maintain these records.

Newly appointed scribae, I recommend that you check your profiles in
the Album Civium, and if any of your positions are missing, ask your
supervisors to record your appointment therein.

If you have questions, please contact me.

Vale,
M. Octavius Gracchus, Censor.

--
Marcus Octavius Gracchus
octavius@... * http://www.graveyards.com

-"Apes don't read philosophy."
-"Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it! Let me correct
you on a few things: Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of
Buddhism is not 'every man for himself'. And the London Underground is
not a political movement! Those are all mistakes. I looked them up."
-from "A Fish Called Wanda"

Salve.

I would not argue with any of this! He is very nearly perfect and I
am a very lucky woman.

Galeria Saltatrix

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
>
> Salve.
>
> Actually, Violentilla is correct that her husband did all the heavy
work in
> the creation of the templum. He is a very talented individual who
can smith,
> build, repair, remodel a kitchen, take care of horses & other
livestock,
> shoot a deer while wearing only pajamas, dress the deer, and keep
his wife
> happy. If Violentilla could clone him, she could become very rich
selling copies
> of him off as an (almost) perfect husband & lifemate.
>
> Please don't throw things at me, Violentilla, the above was meant to
be
> complimentary. Honest.
>
> Galerius Aurelianus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Saltatrix, et salvete omnes,

Violentilla Galeria Saltatrix <jademermaid@...> writes:

> If he cannot register in the gens name that he wishes, he will not
> register at all.

Indeed, that is the choice faced by everyone who wishes to join Nova Roma.
They can choose to take a name approved by the censors, or they can choose to
not join.

I am sorry that this has become a matter of public discussion. I wrote to you
privately about it last night, hoping to prevent the sort of thing that I see
happening now. I imagine the two current censors will be happy to work with
you and your husband to come up with a solution that is satisfactory to all.

> Seems to me it should be up
> to the materfamilias whether or not a gens should be joined by an
> applicant, and not the censors--but that would be too logical, right?

By what logic? It's certainly up to the head of a family, either
paterfamilias or materfamilias, to admit someone to a given family. Gentes
are not familia. They are large groups of people connected by a wide variety
of relationships. There is no person who gets to decide who is and is not
eligible to be in a particular gens.

For those considering the idea of lying to the censors on an application, I'll
recommend against it. That's a good way to guarantee the application will be
rejected, or that probationary citizenship will be revoked once the lie is
discovered.

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salvete.

Paulinus has me to post that his computer has died and a replacement
one will not be available until this weekend.

He hopes to be up and running again by this Sunday, so for those of you
who have written to him or who are expecting his input on any NR list,
he will catch up on any outstanding matters by Monday (hopefully!).

Valete
Cn. Iulius Caesar

" (...) The sacerdotal character belonging to the magistrate is shown,
above all, in the manner of his election. In the eyes of the ancients
the votes of men were not sufficient to establish the ruler of a city.
So long as the primitive royalty lasted, it appeared natural that this
ruler should be designated by birth, by virtue of the religious law
which prescribed that the son should succeed the father in every
priestly office; birth seemed sufficiently to reveal the will of the
gods. When revolutions had everywhere suppressed this royalty, men
appear to have sought, in the place of birth, a mode of election which
the gods might not have to disavow. (…) Affairs are substantially the
same at Rome. The designation of a consul (LAF - Coulanges says about
the consulship, but it applies to any other magistrate as well) did
not belong to men. The will or the caprice of the people could not
legitimately create a magistrate. (...) A magistrate in charge — that
is to say, a man already in possession of the sacred character and of
the auspices — indicated among the dies fasti the one on which the
consul ought to be named (LAF – any other magistrate as well). During
the night which preceded this day, he watched in the open air, his
eyes fixed upon the heavens, observing the signs which the gods sent,
(...) If the pressages were favorable, it was because the gods
accepted the candidate. The next day the people assembled in the
Campus Martius (LAF- Coulanges says about Comitia Centuriata this
case); the same one who had consulted the gods presided at the
assembly. He pronounced in a loud voice the names of the candidates
concerning whom he had taken the auspices. (…). The only explanation
that can be given of this custom, or rather, of these rites of
election, is, that every one then sincerely believed that the choice
of the magistrates belonged, not to the people, but to the gods. The
man in whose hands the religion and the fortune of the city were to be
placed, ought to be revealed by the divine voice. (...)"

COULANGES, N. D. F., The Ancient City, [s.n.], [s.l.], Project
Gutemberg. – The text was sniped for brevity, but I invite all to read
he book.

***

THE COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA IS CALLED

Consul L. Arminius Faustus to all quirites,

Having the auspices been favourable, I convene the Comitia Populi to
fill the vacant position of rogator.

The Contio will begin at a.d. XV Kal. Feb. MMDCCLX a.u.c. (18
ianuarius 2007) at 0:00 Rome time. The Contio will end a.d. X Kal.
Feb. MMDCCLX a.u.c. (23 ianuarius 2007) at 0:00 Rome time.

The voting will begin at a.d. X Kal. Feb. MMDCCLX a.u.c.(23 ianuarius
2007) at 0:00 Rome time and it will end a.d. V Kal. Feb. MMDCCLX
a.u.c. (28 ianuarius 2007) at 0:00 Rome time.

The Comitia is convened to vote the name of citizen Marcus Marius
Aculeo for the vacant position of ROGATOR.

I cease not to stress the importance of the rogator office to the
Republic, as a improvement for gathering more citizens.

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus CONSUL

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius

M. Hortensia V. Galeriae spd;
oh dear, I see you have an idea that you must be a
Galeria to be friends with other cives. Roman gens weren't clans.
Your husband should certainly feel more than welcome at any & every
NR event. Fl. Galerius Aurelianus, our propraetor, can explain
this to you.

Believe me I sympathize. My previous gens was Arminia, which I
joined out of admiration for L. Arminius Faustus. Unfortunately, I
had to change gens or my cognomen as my name was Marca Arminia Maior
& everyone would think I was Marcus Arminius Maior's daughter!

It was a very difficult decison. One thing about the Religio; if
your husband wishes to worship Volcanus, which is wonderful. Roman
religion was all about laws! Laws about auspices, rules about augury
that are actually very serious. This is the true Roman mindset, this
is what all the work here is about!

Look here " sanctus and sanctitas were the augural concepts; as
Valeton has shown, according to the augural theory the sanctitas was
bestowed by an act of inauguratio..." p. 2249 "The Augural Law" J.
Linderski
So let's be truly Roman & embrace our history; it
surel must please the gods & confirm the Pax Deorum!
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

and he will not persue the study of Vulcanus worship

> within NR, which he is quite interested in. Seems to me it should

be up

> to the materfamilias whether or not a gens should be joined by an
> applicant, and not the censors--but that would be too logical,

right?

>
> Authenticity is a lovely thing and awe-inspiring for many of you,

I know

> that. But for my husband, he just wants to register a name he

likes and

> hang out with the rest of the family--he could care less about

reform,

> republicanism or the brewings on this board. If his name will not

pass,

> he will just not bother.
>
> Violentilla Galeria Saltatrix,
> incestuous and uppity woman.
>

M. Hortensia L. Arminio Fausto C. Equitio Catonique spd;
I've found the derivation of Roman 'sanctus' much better
than the J. Scheid one I posted, as it is very explicit & clear.

Look here " sanctus and sanctitas were the augural concepts; as
Valeton has shown, according to the augural theory the sanctitas was
bestowed by an act of inauguratio..." p. 2249 "The Augural Law" J.
Linderski. So 'res sanctae were res inauguratae'
ex Festo 2L.; 'Augustus locus sanctus ab avium gestu, id est quia ab
avibus significatus est; Ovid. Fast. I 609-610: 'sancta vocant
augusta patres, augusta vocantur/ temple sacerdotum rite dicata manu'
(footnote 407, "The Augural Law" p. 2249.)

Linderski following Valeton, Caletano, says the the Jurists of the
Imperial period defined 'locata sancta' as places protected by
legal sanctions (which is what Scheid has.) & in this way lost the
original meaning of sanctus.

L Arminius understand this as this is where the god Terminus comes
in as his fanum was exauguriato..I can find the reference.

bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
> On the line of excelent Cordus and Regulus, I´d add my personal

hypothesis,

> the latin term "Sanctus" that Saint Jeronimus/Hieronimus used on

Vulgata, to

> translate the hebrew term, problably was imbued with more the
> Hebrew/Christian concept than the roman one. ´Sanctus´ on that

case meant

> ´Separated´, and on the Hierosolyma Temple there was the ´Sanctus´

room and

> the ´Sanctus Sanctorum´ room (or even like the burning bush

episode), with a

> concept of ´Aedes´ totaly different from the Greek-roman concept.

Still

> nowadays we may say the ´land of the temple of church is saint´,

however,

> there wasn´t a proibition to build your house on an ex-church land.
>
> I´d even make a paralell with the God Termus. On Ancient, the God

Termus on

> the boundary of two properties was "Sanctus", but unmoveable. That

is why

> Solon did a great 'frisson' by crushing down the Termus for Land
> distribution, or neither Iove Temple´s could delocate the Termo on

the

> place.
>
> Well, good subject...
>
> Valete bene on the pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
>
> 2007/1/14, A. Sempronius Regulus <a_sempronius_regulus@...>:
> >
> > Salve, et salvete omnes,
> >
> > As eastern models of rulers as divine increasingly
> > took hold in late antiqutiy, Greek terms and concepts
> > were progressively transformed. In Plutarch's time
> > Greek/Latin usages did not reflect Greek/Latin usages
> > in Roman Republican times. The Greek "hagos" (roughly
> > translated as "holy" or "sanctity") is an object,
> > person, or office that is an object of awe, the
> > adjective "hages" means admirably ethically clean and
> > pure, and the verb "hazo" literally means to shrink
> > from, and by connotation, to back away in due regard.
> > "Hagnos" means moral purity that awakens awe. It is
> > the Greek Old Testament (LXX) and the Christians who
> > give it increasingly a "sacred" connotation.
> >
> > Vale, et valete omnes,
> >
> > --- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> > <a_apollonius_cordus@... <a_apollonius_cordus%40yahoo.co.uk>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > A. Apollonius L. Arminio sal.
> > >
> > > As far as I know, the person of the censor was not
> > > sacrosanct, i.e. physical violence against a censor
> > > was not an offence against the gods.
> > >
> > > Cn. Equitius quotes Smith's Dictionary. This is a
> > > work which is at least a century out of date, and
> > > although it is still useful as a starting-point it
> > > should not be relied upon in itself. It has the
> > > virtue that, by and large, it cites its sources, and
> > > whenever I use it I always check those sources
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > With respect to this particular passage, the
> > > citations are mostly to works of Plutarch. The
> > > first three citations have nothing to do with
> > > sanctitas and merely describe the great prestige of
> > > the office. The fourth (Camillus 14) says "the
> > > Romans specially revere and hold sacred the office
> > > of censor". The translation is from
> > >
> >
> >

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Cami
llus*.html

> > > and the original Greek is not given, nor would I be
> > > able to understand it if it were. We really need to
> > > know from a Hellenist the meaning of the Greek word
> > > which is translated as "sacred" here. The fifth
> > > (Aemilius Paullus 38) refers to "the censorship,
> > > which is of all offices most sacred". The
> > > translation is from
> > >
> >
> >

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Aemi
lius*.html

> > > and again we need to know more about the original
> > > Greek.
> > >
> > > The final work cited is Cicero, ad fam. 3.10, but I
> > > cannot find in this text anything which calls the
> > > censura a sacred office. Since this is the only
> > > Latin work in Smith's list of citations, I cannot
> > > guess whence he extracted the Latin phrase "sanctus
> > > magistratus". A google search for the phrase
> > > "sanctus magistratus" revealed nothing except texts
> > > deriving from this article in Smith. It is possibly
> > > his own Latin translation of some phrase used by
> > > Plutarch.
> > >
> > > Beyond that I can be of no help except to point out
> > > that "sanctus" is not the same as "sacrosanctus". A
> > > magistrate who is sacrosanctus is protected from
> > > physical violence by a religious prohibition which
> > > makes anyone who assaults him sacer. "Sanctus" can
> > > have this meaning, but it can also have less
> > > specific meanings such as "protected by the gods",
> > > "loved by the gods", "pure", or "virtuous". Perhaps
> > > Plutarch calls the censor "sacred" because of the
> > > great religious importance of his lustral duties, or
> > > perhaps he has misunderstood a Latin source which
> > > merely said that the censores were virtuous and
> > > upright. I notice also that the word "sanctus" was
> > > often used to describe parents and people of great
> > > age, so perhaps it is appropriate to the censores
> > > for that reason.
> > >
> > > At any rate I think these two passages of Plutarch
> > > are not enough, in themselves, to allow us to say
> > > that the censores were "invested with sanctitas" if
> > > by that we wish to indicate some specific religious
> > > or constitutional powers or characteristics; and I
> > > certainly do not think they justify any suggestion
> > > that the censores were personally inviolable in the
> > > same way as the tribuni plebis.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a
> > > free analysis of your email personality. Take the
> > > quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship.
> > >
> > http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > A. Sempronius Regulus
> >
> > America Austrorientalis
> >
> > Vincit qui se vincit. - Seneca
> > Astra inclinant, non necessitant. - Albinus
> > Hodie bonum est esse Romanum.
> >
> > ANNI MMDCCLX AVC (anno urbis conditae - a.u.c.)
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Be a PS3 game guru.
> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo!

> > Games.
> > http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" -

Salustius

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve, et Salvete Omnes,

Fascinating discussion on the evolution of ancient terms, one that I
hope continues. I don't always agree with the conclusions though I
enjoy the process of getting there. To this particular post, I will
throw my 2 denarii in and hopefully not repeat Equitius Cato too much.

I believe part of the "problem" if there is one is how defined we are
by the language that we use and most don't realize it's power. The
Greek concept of "Hagos" (or "Hagios") is very much alive to Greeks
demonstrated by the title of the Virgin Mary- Panagia ("Pan-Hagia"
using the feminine form of Hagios.) It gels very well with what's been
said here- "moral purity that awakens awe" of which the Virgin Mary is
held in supreme regard. Oddly, in Western Christendom which uses
Latin, this title is of course not used and yet in certain ways, she
is held "more sacred" than in the Greek-influenced east which doesn't
hold to Western ideas of Immaculate conception or that she was without
human flaw. Thinking of these things, I believe I very much agree with
Sempronius Regulus' point, though not that it comes from all
Christians as much as the Latin West of Christendom. It may have been
the Roman culture itself that invested into the idea of "Hagios" (in
plain English "Holy") more than was originally there in Christian belief.

Just a few thoughts I contribute to the discussion in appreciation.
Keep up the inquiries, Novaromans- again, always fascinating at this
level.

Vale, et Valete bene,
L. Fidelius Graecus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Sempronius Regulus"
<a_sempronius_regulus@...> wrote:

>
> Salve, et salvete omnes,
>
> As eastern models of rulers as divine increasingly
> took hold in late antiqutiy, Greek terms and concepts
> were progressively transformed. In Plutarch's time
> Greek/Latin usages did not reflect Greek/Latin usages
> in Roman Republican times. The Greek "hagos" (roughly
> translated as "holy" or "sanctity") is an object,
> person, or office that is an object of awe, the
> adjective "hages" means admirably ethically clean and
> pure, and the verb "hazo" literally means to shrink
> from, and by connotation, to back away in due regard.
> "Hagnos" means moral purity that awakens awe. It is
> the Greek Old Testament (LXX) and the Christians who
> give it increasingly a "sacred" connotation.
>
> Vale, et valete omnes,
>
> --- "A. Apollonius Cordus"
> <a_apollonius_cordus@...> wrote:
>
> > A. Apollonius L. Arminio sal.
> >
> > As far as I know, the person of the censor was not
> > sacrosanct, i.e. physical violence against a censor
> > was not an offence against the gods.
> >
> > Cn. Equitius quotes Smith's Dictionary. This is a
> > work which is at least a century out of date, and
> > although it is still useful as a starting-point it
> > should not be relied upon in itself. It has the
> > virtue that, by and large, it cites its sources, and
> > whenever I use it I always check those sources
> > themselves.
> >
> > With respect to this particular passage, the
> > citations are mostly to works of Plutarch. The
> > first three citations have nothing to do with
> > sanctitas and merely describe the great prestige of
> > the office. The fourth (Camillus 14) says "the
> > Romans specially revere and hold sacred the office
> > of censor". The translation is from
> >
>

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Camillus*.html

> > and the original Greek is not given, nor would I be
> > able to understand it if it were. We really need to
> > know from a Hellenist the meaning of the Greek word
> > which is translated as "sacred" here. The fifth
> > (Aemilius Paullus 38) refers to "the censorship,
> > which is of all offices most sacred". The
> > translation is from
> >
>

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Aemilius*.html

> > and again we need to know more about the original
> > Greek.
> >
> > The final work cited is Cicero, ad fam. 3.10, but I
> > cannot find in this text anything which calls the
> > censura a sacred office. Since this is the only
> > Latin work in Smith's list of citations, I cannot
> > guess whence he extracted the Latin phrase "sanctus
> > magistratus". A google search for the phrase
> > "sanctus magistratus" revealed nothing except texts
> > deriving from this article in Smith. It is possibly
> > his own Latin translation of some phrase used by
> > Plutarch.
> >
> > Beyond that I can be of no help except to point out
> > that "sanctus" is not the same as "sacrosanctus". A
> > magistrate who is sacrosanctus is protected from
> > physical violence by a religious prohibition which
> > makes anyone who assaults him sacer. "Sanctus" can
> > have this meaning, but it can also have less
> > specific meanings such as "protected by the gods",
> > "loved by the gods", "pure", or "virtuous". Perhaps
> > Plutarch calls the censor "sacred" because of the
> > great religious importance of his lustral duties, or
> > perhaps he has misunderstood a Latin source which
> > merely said that the censores were virtuous and
> > upright. I notice also that the word "sanctus" was
> > often used to describe parents and people of great
> > age, so perhaps it is appropriate to the censores
> > for that reason.
> >
> > At any rate I think these two passages of Plutarch
> > are not enough, in themselves, to allow us to say
> > that the censores were "invested with sanctitas" if
> > by that we wish to indicate some specific religious
> > or constitutional powers or characteristics; and I
> > certainly do not think they justify any suggestion
> > that the censores were personally inviolable in the
> > same way as the tribuni plebis.

V. Galeria M. Hortensiae s.p.d.

> oh dear, I see you have an idea that you must be a
> Galeria to be friends with other cives. Roman gens weren't clans.
> Your husband should certainly feel more than welcome at any & every
> NR event. Fl. Galerius Aurelianus, our propraetor, can explain
> this to you.
>

oh dear, I see you have an idea that I am new to the Religio as well
as Roman familial customs. I assure you that I am not. How about
this--perhaps I should give him a slave name and take him as a slave
instead? Oh wait, there is no slavery in NR, right? Why not? It
certainly was a working part of life, just like the custom of arranged
marriage and familial naming practices. My point is that authenticity
can only go so far, and in this case, I can't see that it is worth the
trouble. Is it a matter of controlling what can be controlled only
because it can be done?

As I said, it does not really matter, I no longer wish to burden the
board with this problem. If it is meant to be, it will be worked out
when he applies for citizenship, and if not, then he will simply not
worry about it, believe me. I'm more upset about this situation than
he could ever be--which only speaks to the depth of his character and
the shallow nature of mine! Ah well. Back to your regularly
scheduled argu....discussions, yes?

Violentilla Galeria Saltatrix

-M. Hortensia L. Fidelio Graeco G. Equitioque spd;
I have 0 knowledge of biblical scholarship. So I haven't a
clue how Hebrew Qodes, became Greek Hagios & Latin Sanctus. Nor do I
understand the separate meanings of them; what Qds meant to the
ancient Hebrews, other than the tabernacle is Miqdds haqodes in
Hebrew (holiest of holies- ah Hebrew school;-)

But from my reading I thought this exerpt below would be helpful in
understanding. Cato, Cordus & I a while ago had a good discussion
about Dionysius of Halicarnassus & why he wasn't a perfect source.
In the review below there is a good scholarly explanation, involving
the difficult transit of terms from language to languae.

Below is a snippet from the Bryn Mawr Classical Review of Jyri
Vaahtera's book "Roman augural lore in Greek historiograhpy: a
study of theory and terminology:

" three ways by which augural terms were expressed in Greek: per
transcriptionem (transliteration), per comparationem (cultural
equivalent), and per periphrasin et paraphrasin. Again Dionysius is
deservedly taken to task for his ignorance of procedures and his
carelessness with terms. V. has surely done a great service in
sorting out with delicacy and finesse a number of questionable
passages. And he is surely right to say that we must look at
procedure whenever an ambiguous term such as mantis confronts us (72-
73). "
a great discussion!
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/
-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "l_fidelius_graecus"
<l_fidelius_graecus@...> wrote:

>
> Salve, et Salvete Omnes,
>
> Fascinating discussion on the evolution of ancient terms,

Fl. Galerius M. Hortensia sal.

Yes, I am quite aware that Nova Roma is not the SCA; a situation that has
both its good and bad points. Nova Roma is also not Roma Mater, as you should
be well aware. If two citizens who are married choose to have the same nomen
or be attached to the same gens, it is allowable. Family is at the very
heart of both Nova Roma and Roma Mater and, as I have pointed out to you
before, the Galeri regard ourselves as a family or (if you'll pardon the Celtic
reference) a clan. You can hold whatever belief concerning a domus or gens that
you wish but I have yet to see any Nova Romans beating down your door in the
hope of becoming Hortensi.

Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--M. Hortensia Fl. Galerio spd;
ah, I finally understand. You want to be a clan &
that's it...It is not about Romanitas, faithfulness to the past &
being authentically Roman.

How can we be authentic, work hard at nomenclature, research & then
what junk it? What's the point of joining an organization devoted to
being the best of Republican Rome?
as for Hortensi, they would be my children...
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior Fabiana

> Yes, I am quite aware that Nova Roma is not the SCA; a situation

that has

> both its good and bad points. , as I have pointed out to you
> before, the Galeri regard ourselves as a family or (if you'll

pardon the Celtic

> reference) a clan. You can hold whatever belief concerning a

domus or gens that

> you wish but I have yet to see any Nova Romans beating down your

door in the

> hope of becoming Hortensi.
>
> Vale.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Aurelianus Marino sal.

I apologize. You are correct about this lex defining confarreatio between
two citizens. My concern was related to a discussion among some of my
colleagues in the CP and RR lists that since the several of the higher offices of
the CP require that both the parents of a citizen would have to be married
confarreatio for the citizen to assume the sacred office, NR could never fill the
positions of Rex et Regina Sacrorum or Flamen Dialis and even the other two
flamines maiores might be called to question.

Section II, subsection A seems to state that two heads of household who are
married and sui iuris (for example, Galerius Malleus and Galeria Saltarix)
are a familia without either being paterfamilias or materfamilias but sharing
potestas. While subsection F, would definitely allow such a state within
their familia to exist.

Essentially, this section of the Lex would allow for Galerius Malleus
(Hammer) to choose the nomen Galerius if approved under normal NR naming
conventions, be married to Violentilla Galeria Saltarix (Dancer), and to share potestas
within their familia.

Am I missing something or does this sum it up?

Vale.

LEX EQVITIA FAMILIARIS
I. Legal Status

A. Every citizen is either sui iuris (in his own power) or alieni

iuris (in another's power).

B. Any citizen who is a paterfamilias (father of the household)

or a materfamilias (mother of the household) is sui iuris; any citizen

who is sui iuris is a paterfamilias or materfamilias.

C. Any citizen who is a filiusfamilias (son in power) or a

filiafamilias (daughter in power) is in the patria potestas (hereafter

'potestas') of his or her paterfamilias and / or materfamilias.

D. A wife who is married cum manu is in the manus of her husband;

if her husband is a filiusfamilias she is also in the potestas of her

husband's paterfamilias and / or materfamilias. If her husband is sui

iuris, he is her paterfamilias; if her husband is alieni iuris, his

paterfamilias and / or materfamilias is / are her paterfamilias and / or

materfamilias.

E. Any citizen who is in potestas or in manus is alieni iuris.



II. Familiae

A. A familia (household) consists of a paterfamilias and everyone

who is in his potestas or manus; or a materfamilias and everyone who is

in her potestas; or two heads of household together in a free marriage

and everyone who is in their shared potestas.

B. Within this law, the phrase 'paterfamilias and / or

materfamilias' means the paterfamilias where he has sole potestas over

his familia, or the materfamilias where she has sole potestas over her

familia, or both heads of household where they share potestas over their

familia.

C. Within this law, the phrase 'paterfamilias or materfamilias'

means the paterfamilias where he has sole potestas over his familia, or

the materfamilias where she has sole potestas over her familia, or

either one of the heads of household where they share potestas over

their familia.

D. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias hold(s) potestas over

his, her, or their legal descendants (except those who have been

emancipated, married cum manu into another familia, or adopted into

another familia) and the wives cum manu of those legal descendants.

E. A male citizen who is sui iuris is the paterfamilias of all

those in his potestas or manus; a female citizen who is sui iuris is the

materfamilias of all those in her potestas.

F. Potestas cannot be shared except by two citizens who are

married to one another in a free marriage and are both sui iuris. Where

two or more citizens who are sui iuris but are not married to one

another in a free marriage have a claim under this law to potestas over

another citizen, the praetores may decide the matter, giving potestas to

whichever party is best able to fulfill the duties and exercise the

rights of a paterfamilias or materfamilias towards the person concerned.

G. For the purpose of family law, and with regard to their

familia, a sui iuris citizen couple in a free marriage who share

potestas are treated as a single legal person, and any action taken by

one of them by virtue of their potestas is considered a joint action by

both together. For all other purposes each remains individually

answerable at law for his or her own actions.



III. Rights & Duties of Patria Potestas and Manus

A. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may make legal contracts and

transactions, and acquire, hold, and dispose of property and contractual

rights, benefits, and obligations, on behalf of his or her familia or

its individual members.

B. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may give or withhold specific

or general consent for members of his or her familia to make legal

contracts or transactions, or acquire or dispose of property or

contractual rights, benefits, or obligations.

C. A paterfamilias or materfamilias may regulate the conduct of

members of his or her familia by means of rewards and punishments. No

officer or organ of the state shall interfere either to assist or to

prevent the imposition of punishment by a paterfamilias or materfamilias

upon a member of his or her familia.

D. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias hold(s) responsibility

for the upbringing, education, good conduct, and well-being of those in

his, her, or their potestas or manus.



IV. Legal Capacity

A. A citizen who is alieni iuris has no legal capacity to make or

witness any legal contract or transaction, or to acquire or dispose of

property or contractual rights, benefits, or obligations, except with

the explicit consent (whether specific or general) of his or her

paterfamilias or materfamilias.

B. A citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has no

legal capacity to make or witness any legal contract or transaction, or

to acquire or dispose of property or contractual rights, benefits, or

obligations, except through his or her tutor or tutrix.

C. Anyone who, having entered into such a contract or

transaction, later discovers that the other party was at the time alieni

iuris and acting without the necessary consent, has sixty (60) days to
petition

the praetores for the restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status

quo ante; if he or she does not, it is considered that he or she has

reaffirmed that contract or transaction as between himself or herself

and the paterfamilias and / or materfamilias of the original party.

D. Any paterfamilias or materfamilias who discovers that anyone

in his or her potestas or manus has entered into such a contract or

transaction without the necessary consent has sixty (60) days to petition the

praetores for the restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo

ante; if he or she does not, it is considered that he or she has

reaffirmed the contract or transaction as between himself or herself and

the other party.

E. Anyone who, having entered into such a contract or

transaction, later discovers that the other party was at the time sui

iuris but below the age of eighteen (18) and not acting through his or her
tutor or

tutrix, has sixty (60) days to petition the praetores for the restoration, as

nearly as possible, of the status quo ante; if he or she does not, it is

considered that he or she has reaffirmed that contract or transaction.

F. Any tutor or tutrix who discovers that his or her pupillus or

pupilla has entered into such a contract or transaction without acting

through him or her has sixty (60) days to petition the praetores for the

restoration, as nearly as possible, of the status quo ante; if he or she

does not, it is considered that he or she has reaffirmed the contract or

transaction.



V. Legal Action

A. A citizen who is alieni iuris may not be party to legal action

except where explicitly provided by lex, decretum, edictum, or

senatusconsultum.

B. If a citizen who is alieni iuris commits an offence, his or

her paterfamilias and / or materfamilias are liable for it; if, in such

a case, the paterfamilias' and / or materfamilias' failure to prevent

the commission of the offence was due to his or her unavoidable physical

absence, the praetor may, at his or her discretion, include in the

formula an exceptio (defence) or vis maior (insurmountable necessity).

C. If anyone commits an offence against or incurs a legal

obligation to a citizen who is alieni iuris, the latter's paterfamilias

or materfamilias may take legal action on his or her behalf.

D. A tutor or tutrix may represent and act on behalf of his or

her pupillus or pupilla in legal matters, but is not personally liable

for the offences of the pupillus or pupilla.

E. No one shall be held legally liable for any offence except one

who was legally liable at the time.



VI. Changes In Legal Status

A. A filiusfamilias or filiafamilias becomes sui iuris if he or

she is emancipated.

B. A filiusfamilias or filiafamilias becomes sui iuris if he or

she has no legal ascendant who is a citizen.

C. A wife cum manu becomes sui iuris if her marriage is dissolved.

D. A wife cum manu becomes sui iuris if her husband dies or loses

his citizenship.

E. A citizen who is alieni iuris becomes sui iuris if he or she

is or becomes a flamen, rex sacrorum, a pontifex, or a civil magistrate.

F. A paterfamilias or materfamilias becomes alieni iuris if he or

she is adopted by adrogatio.

G. A materfamilias becomes alieni iuris is she is married cum manu.



VII. Marriage

A. If two people live together with affectio maritalis (marital

affection), i.e., regarding themselves as married to one another, their

relationship is a free marriage.

B. If a male and a female citizen live together for a full year

with affectio maritalis without the woman being absent from their home

for three or more nights in a row, they may declare their relationship a

marriage cum manu contracted by usus. Without such declaration their

marriage remains a free marriage.

C. If a male and a female citizen undergo the ceremony of

coemptio in the presence of five witnesses who have the capacity to

witness legal transactions, their relationship is a marriage cum manu

contracted by coemptio.

D. If a male and a female citizen of whom one is a patrician or a

member of the collegium pontificium undergo the ceremony of confarreatio

in the presence of the pontifex maximus, their relationship is a

marriage cum manu contracted by confarreatio.

E. If two people are married to one another under the law of the

state in which they live but meet none of the criteria set out in VII. A.,

B., C., or D., their relationship is a free marriage.

F. If a materfamilias marries cum manu, those in her potestas are

transferred to the potestas of her husband.



VIII. Dissolution Of Marriage

A. If a person in a free marriage notifies his or her spouse in

writing that he or she wishes the marriage to end, that marriage is

dissolved. If, however, both spouses regain affectio maritalis within a

year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as if there had been no

dissolution.

B. If a person in a free marriage contracts a new marriage in any

of the ways set out in VII, the former marriage is dissolved. If,

however, the original spouses regain affectio maritalis within a year of

the dissolution, the marriage resumes as if there had been no dissolution.

C. If a husband married cum manu by coemptio or by usus

emancipates his wife, the marriage is dissolved. If, however, the

spouses retain affectio maritalis or regain affectio maritalis within a

year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as a free marriage.

D. If a couple married cum manu by confarreatio undergoes the

ceremony of diffareatio, the marriage is dissolved. If, however, the

spouses retain affectio maritalis or regain affectio maritalis within a

year of the dissolution, the marriage resumes as a free marriage.



IX. Prohibited Marriages

A. No marriage may exist if either party is younger than 18 years.

B. No marriage may exist between a citizen and his or her legal

or biological ascendant or descendant.

C. No marriage may exist between a citizen and his or her legal

or biological collateral relative if either party is fewer than two

degrees removed from their common ascendant; except that a marriage

between adoptive collateral relatives may exist if at least one party is

sui iuris.

D. No marriage may exist between a citizen and the former spouse

of his or her legal or biological ascendant or descendant, or between a

citizen and the legal or biological ascendant or descendant of his or

her former spouse.



X. Emancipation

A. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may emancipate a

person, thus releasing him or her from potestas or manus, provided that

he, she, or they notify the praetores of the emancipation, and provided

that five witnesses who have the capacity to witness legal transactions

also notify the praetores that they bear witness.

B. A citizen who is alieni iuris and whose paterfamilias and / or

materfamilias refuses(s) to emancipate him or her may petition the

praetores; if the praetores, after consulting with the paterfamilias and

/ or materfamilias, consider the refusal unreasonable, they may declare

the petitioner sui iuris.



XI. Adoption

A. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may adopt by adrogatio

another citizen who is sui iuris provided that the adoptive parent(s) is

/ are at least 18 years older than the adopted child, and provided that

the adoptive parents(s) and the adopted child all notify the pontifex

maximus of their consent, and provided that the pontifex maximus

consents, and provided that the comitia curiata bears witness (without

right of refusal).

B. A paterfamilias and / or materfamilias may adopt by adoptio

another citizen who is alieni iuris provided that the adoptive parent(s)

is / are at least 18 years older than the adopted child, and provided

that the adoptive paterfamilias and / or materfamilias and the former

paterfamilias and / or materfamilias all notify the praetores of their

consent, and provided that five witnesses who have the capacity to

witness legal transactions also notify the praetores that they bear witness.

C. A citizen adopted by adrogatio becomes the legal child of the

adoptive parent(s) and passes into his, her, or their potestas, and

ceases to be the legal child relative of his or her former relatives

except those in his or her potestas or manus; anyone in the potestas or

manus of the adopted child becomes the legal descendant of the adoptive

parent(s) in whatever relationship is appropriate to the new

relationship between the adopted child and the adoptive parent(s), and

passes into the potestas of the adoptive parent(s).

D. A citizen adopted by adoptio becomes the legal child of the

adoptive parent(s) and ceases to be the legal relative of his or her

former relatives, and passes from the potestas of his or her former

paterfamilias and / or materfamilias into the potestas of the adoptive

parent(s).

E. A citizen adopted by adrogatio or by adoptio takes the name of

his or her adoptive father (or, if there is no adoptive father, the name

of his or her adoptive mother), adjusted to his or her gender as

appropriate, and adds an agnomen formed from his or her former nomen

with the ending -ianus or -iana (e.g., Salix becomes Salicianus, Equitia

becomes Equitiana). Any other relatives transferred from one familia to

another by adrogatio also change their names in the same way.



XII. Tutela

A. Any citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 must

have a tutor or tutrix (guardian); a citizen who has a tutor is referred

to as a pupillus or pupilla.
B. If a citizen is emancipated by his or her paterfamilias and /

or materfamilias, his or her former paterfamilas and / or materfamilias

is / are his or her tutor, tutrix, or tutores, unless during the

emancipation process it is explicitly stated in the notification to the

praetores and explicitly witnessed by all the witnesses that one of the

witnesses it to be tutor instead.

C. If a citizen is emancipated by the praetores, the praetores

must appoint a tutor or tutrix.

D. If a citizen becomes sui iuris on the death of his or her

paterfamilias or materfamilias, and if in a valid will the deceased has

nominated an eligible citizen as tutor or tutrix, the nominated citizen

has thirty (30) days from the time when the will takes effect to accept the

nomination; if he or she does not, he or she is considered to have refused.

E. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of eighteen (18) has

no tutor under XII. B., XII. C., or XII. D., his or her nearest eligible legal

relative is tutor or tutrix, without right of refusal; if several

eligible legal relatives are equally closely related, they are joint

tutores.

F. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of eighteen (18) has

no tutor under XII. B., XII. C., XII. D., or XII. E., the praetores may
appoint

a consenting eligible citizen to be tutor or tutrix.

G. If a citizen who is sui iuris but is below the age of 18 has

need of a temporary tutor or tutrix (for instance while waiting for a

tutor nominated in a will to accept, or to take legal action on behalf

of the pupillus or pupilla against the latter's regular tutor or

tutrix), the praetores may appoint a consenting eligible citizen to be

tutor or tutrix for a specified period or until a specified condition be

fulfilled.

H. To be eligible to be a tutor or tutrix a person must be a full

citizen over the age of eighteen (18), sui iuris, and not prohibited from
doing so

by a court judgement of the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.

I. A tutor or tutrix may make legal contracts or transactions,

and acquire, hold, and dispose of property and contractual rights,

benefits, and obligations, on behalf of his or her pupillus or pupilla,

but only in such a way as to conserve or increase the property and

contractual rights and benefits of his or her pupillus or pupilla.

K. A tutor or tutrix must make arrangements and, if necessary,

financial provision for his or her pupillus' or pupilla's education and

upbringing.

L. When a pupillus or pupilla reaches the age of eighteen (18) his or her

tutor or tutrix is relieved or his or her duties and must surrender to

the pupillus or pupilla any property or contractual rights, benefits, or

obligations acquired or held on his or her behalf.

M. If a pupillus or pupilla enters the potestas of another

citizen, his or her tutor is relieved of his or her duties and must

surrender to the new paterfamilias and / or materfamilias any property

or contractual rights, benefits, or obligations acquired or held on

behalf of the pupillus or pupilla.



XIII. Succession

A. Any citizen who is sui iuris and aged eighteen (18) or above, and who is

not prohibited from doing so by a court judgement or the ruling of a

magistrate with imperium, may make a legal will.

B. A will is invalid unless witnessed by five citizens who have

the capacity to witness legal transactions, and unless the testator was

of sound mind at the time when the will was written, and unless the will

clearly names as heir at least one citizen who is sui iuris (or becomes

sui iuris on the testator's death) and not prohibited from acting as

heir by a court judgement or the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.

C. A citizen named as heir in a valid will may refuse up to thirty (30)

days after discovering that he or she has been named as heir. The will

may name another eligible citizen as secondary heir in case the primary

heir refuses, and so on indefinitely. If no heir so named accepts, the

will is invalid. A citizen who becomes sui iuris as a result of the

death of the deceased may not refuse the inheritance.

D. If a paterfamilias or materfamilias dies without leaving a

valid will, any citizens who become sui iuris as a result of the death

become heirs without right of refusal; if no citizens become sui iuris

as a result of the death, the nearest eligible legal relative(s)

become(s) heir(s), each having the right to refuse up to thirty (30) days
after

discovering that he or she is heir; if there are no eligible legal

relatives prepared to accept the inheritance, the inheritance passes to

the gens of the deceased and may be disposed of by agreement of the

patresfamiliarum and matresfamiliarum of the gens.

E. If more than one person is heir and the will, if there is one,

does not state in what proportions they are to share the inheritance,

the inheritance is shared equally; except that if there is no valid will

and the heirs are those who have become sui iuris as a result of the

death, stirpitial representation applies as in ancient law. If one

person who is named co-heir in a will refuses the inheritance, his or

her share goes to the other heirs in proportion to their existing shares.

F. The heir(s) inherit(s) any property and contractual rights,

benefits, and obligations which were held by the deceased and within the

jurisdiction of Nova Roma, and must put into effect the instructions

given by the deceased in any valid will except any instructions which

are illegal, immoral, or impossible; and must assume responsibility for

the familial sacra of the deceased.



XIV. Remedies

A. Any citizen who has the legal capacity to take legal action

may bring an action under the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria, or whatever lex

shall supersede it, against a paterfamilias and / or materfamilias for

seriously and consistently failing in his, her, or their duties to his,

her, or their familia or a particular member of it. The praetor shall

direct in his or her formula that if the reus, rea, or rei be found

guilty his, her, or their familia or a particular member of it be

removed from his, her, or their potestas or manus and, if necessary,

placed under the tutela of a tutor or tutrix. The praetor may include

other penalties at his or her discretion.

B. Any citizen who who has the legal capacity to take legal

action may bring an action under the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria, or

whatever lex shall supersede it, against a tutor or tutrix for failing

in his or her duties to his or her pupillus or pupilla. A pupillus or

pupilla may petition the praetores to appoint a temporary tutor or

tutrix to bring such an action on his or her behalf. The praetor shall

direct in his or her formula that if the reus be found guilty his

pupillus or pupilla be removed from his or her tutela and placed under

the tutela of another tutor or tutrix. The praetor may require the reus

or rea to make restitution for any avoidable diminution of the property

or contractual rights or benefits of the pupillus or pupilla and to meet

personally any contractual obligations incurred by the tutor or tutrix

on behalf of the pupillus or pupilla, and may include other penalties at

his or her discretion.



XV. New Citizens

A. A new citizen entering Nova Roma as the legal child of another

citizen takes that citizen's nomen and cognomen, and may choose a

praenomen and agnomina subject to the approval of his or her new legal

parent and of the magistrates tasked with citizen registration. A new

citizen entering Nova Roma as the legal child of a married citizen

couple takes the nomen and cognomen of his or her legal father, and may

choose a praenomen and agnomina subject to the approval of his or her

new legal parents and of the magistrates tasked with citizen registration.

B. A person who is the biological child of a citizen or of a

married citizen couple, or who is the legally adopted child of a citizen

or of a married citizen couple according to the law of the state in

which he or she lives, shall have the right to become a citizen as the

legal child of that citizen or married citizen c0ouple.

C. A new citizen entering Nova Roma as a paterfamilias or

materfamilias takes the nomen appropriate to his or her gens and a

cognomen not already held by any member of that gens.



XVI. Miscellaneous Provisions

A. To have capacity to witness a legal transaction a person must

be a citizen, sui iuris, aged eighteen (18) years or above, and not
prohibited from

doing so by a court judgement of the ruling of a magistrate with imperium.

B. All citizens retain those rights guaranteed in the

Constitution of Nova Roma. The rights of alieni iuris citizens may be

exercised on their behalf by their paterfamilias, materfamilias, tutor,

or tutrix, except where an alieni iuris citizen is petitioning a praetor

directly.

C. No citizen may vote in comitia for another citizen, regardless

of familial status, unless a proxy statement has been filed by the

citizen granting a voting proxy. This proxy statement must be filed with

the presiding magistrate of the comitia during the contio period prior

to the vote.

D. The praetores may clarify, supplement, and interpret this law

with reference to the relevant provisions and practices of republican

Roman law, and with reference to the principles of justice and equity,

as was done by the praetores of antiquity.




Passed by Comitia Populi Tributa, Yes-19; No-8; Abstain-7
07 October MMDCCLVII
_TABVLARIVM_ (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/) qcc


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Caecilius Metellus Fl. Galerio M. Hortensiae amicis salutem.

Before this becomes a battle between the gentes, I'll only drop my
thoughts on the matter here, and leave it at that. As always, take what
you like, leave what you don't.

In my opinion, the question here is not about whether it is allowable,
or even legal, for two citizens who are married to join Nova Roma post
facto and carry the same nomen. To my mind that is only second to the
greater, and far more important question: Do we want to maintain history
on this issue?

It would seem to me that in the passing of various legislation (both in
the form of edicta and in leges) over the past few years, the answer is
that we *do* in fact want to maintain the customs of Antiquity in our
modern situation.

And to my mind, that is the better situation. What reasons are there
for not maintaining the custom? If our general attitude is to be that
we should start by taking as many of the customs as we may, and only
after that do we consider why the custom should not stay, what reasons
are there for the customs not to stay, on this particular issue? As I
say, to my mind, there aren't any.

It is very possible, though, that I am completely misunderstanding the
attitude of the People. It could be that the attitude of the People is
such that we start with the modern custom, determine a reason why the
custom of Antiquity is better or preferable to the modern counterpart,
then change it. I'm not in such a position to know precisely what is in
the thoughts of the People, so I can only offer my speculation. But at
any rate, perhaps before we continue with this conversation, we should
consider (or maybe reconsider) our positions both on the process we
should take (whether we start with Antiquity or Modernity), and on
whether we want to maintain history on this issue.

-M. Hortensia Q. Caecilio Metellos spd;
the return to the concept of gentes & domus as in
the Republic was the reform of Astur, which Cordus wrote, the people
voted for, & the magistrates supported. So I have finished with this
topic amice:)
We have snow here! And on Monday it was 70F, heu I must
pray to Sol for his swift return!
bene vale in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior Fabiana
producer "Vox Romana"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
> Before this becomes a battle between the gentes, I'll only drop my
> thoughts on the matter here, and leave it at that. As always,

take what

> you like, leave what you don't.
>
> In my opinion, the question here is not about whether it is

allowable,

> or even legal, for two citizens who are married to join Nova Roma

post

> facto and carry the same nomen. To my mind that is only second to

the

> greater, and far more important question: Do we want to maintain

history

> on this issue?
>
> It would seem to me that in the passing of various legislation

(both in

> the form of edicta and in leges) over the past few years, the

answer is

> that we *do* in fact want to maintain the customs of Antiquity in

our

> modern situation.
>
> And to my mind, that is the better situation. What reasons are

there

> for not maintaining the custom? If our general attitude is to be

that

> we should start by taking as many of the customs as we may, and

only

> after that do we consider why the custom should not stay, what

reasons

> are there for the customs not to stay, on this particular issue?

As I

> say, to my mind, there aren't any.
>
> It is very possible, though, that I am completely misunderstanding

the

> attitude of the People. It could be that the attitude of the

People is

> such that we start with the modern custom, determine a reason why

the

> custom of Antiquity is better or preferable to the modern

counterpart,

> then change it. I'm not in such a position to know precisely what

is in

> the thoughts of the People, so I can only offer my speculation.

But at

> any rate, perhaps before we continue with this conversation, we

should

> consider (or maybe reconsider) our positions both on the process

we

> should take (whether we start with Antiquity or Modernity), and on
> whether we want to maintain history on this issue.
>

Salve Aureliane,

PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... writes:

> Aurelianus Marino sal.
>
> I apologize. You are correct about this lex defining confarreatio between
> two citizens.

Thanks. After going to the trouble of including it in the law, I was a tad
surprised to see your statement that Nova Roma hadn't any laws defining the
traditional types of Roman marriage. It's true that we only have one
instance of conferratio marriage in NR, but that's probably just as well.

> My concern was related to a discussion among some of my
> colleagues in the CP and RR lists [...]

I see that as an issue for the Collegium Pontificum to address. As far as I
know we don't currently have any decreta specifying that our priesthoods have
the same restrictions as existed in antiquity. Certainly our Vestals don't.
I consider that a Good Thing and hope the CP will continue to exercise this
policy.

> Section II, subsection A seems to state that two heads of household who are
> married and sui iuris (for example, Galerius Malleus and Galeria Saltarix)
> are a familia without either being paterfamilias or materfamilias but
> sharing potestas.

They share potestas, yes.

(Also, the proper form of the cognomen is Malleolus. See
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Choosing_a_Roman_name )

> While subsection F, would definitely allow such a state within
> their familia to exist.

Yep.

> Essentially, this section of the Lex would allow for Galerius Malleus
> (Hammer)

(Malleolus)

> to choose the nomen Galerius if approved under normal NR naming
> conventions, be married to Violentilla Galeria Saltarix (Dancer), and to
> share potestas within their familia.

Yes, that is correct. I've discussed this with the current censors off-list,
and I think they agree.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XV Kalendas Februarius; haec dies comitialis est.


"These are the memorable wars which Romulus waged. His failure to
subdue any more of the neighbouring nations seems to have been due to
his sudden death, which happened while he was still in the vigour of
his age for warlike achievements. There are many different stories
concerning it. Those who give a rather fabulous account of his life
say that while he was haranguing his men in the camp, sudden darkness
rushed down out of a clear sky and a violent storm burst, after which
he was nowhere to be seen; and these writers believe that he was
caught up into heaven by his father, Mars. But those who write the
more plausible accounts say that he was killed by his own people; and
the reason they allege for his murder is that he released without the
common consent, contrary to custom, the hostages he had taken from the
Veientes, and that he no longer comported himself in the same manner
toward the original citizens and toward those who were enrolled later,
but showed greater honour to the former and slighted the latter, and
also because of his great cruelty in the punishment of delinquents
(for instance, he had ordered a group of Romans who were accused of
brigandage against the neighbouring peoples to be hurled down the
precipice [the Tarpeian Rock] after he had sat alone in judgment upon
them, although they were neither of mean birth nor few in number), but
chiefly because he now seemed to be harsh and arbitrary and to be
exercising his power more like a tyrant than a king. For these
reasons, they say, the patricians formed a conspiracy against him and
resolved to slay him; and having carried out the deed in the
senate-house, they divided his body into several pieces, that it might
not be seen, and then came out, each one hiding his part of the body
under his robes, and afterwards burying it in secret. Others say that
while haranguing the people he was slain by the new citizens of Rome,
and that they undertook the murder at the time when the rain and the
darkness occurred, the assembly of the people being then dispersed and
their chief left without his guard. And for this reason, they say, the
day on which this event happened got its name from the flight of the
people and is called Populifugia down to our times. Be that as it
may, the incidents that occurred by the direction of Heaven in
connexion with this man's conception and death would seem to give no
small authority to the view of those who make gods of mortal men and
place the souls of illustrious persons in heaven. For they say that at
the time when his mother was violated, whether by some man of are by a
god, there was a total eclipse of the sun and a general darkness as in
the night covered the earth, and that at his death the same thing
happened. Such, then, is reported to have been the death of Romulus,
who built Rome and was chosen by her citizens as their first king. He
left no issue, and after reigning thirty-seven years, died in the
fifty-fifth year of his age; for he was very young when he obtained
the rule, being no more than eighteen years old, as is agreed by all
who have written his history." - Dionysius of Halicaenassus, "Roman
Antiquities" 2.56



"I sing of golden-throned Hera whom Rhea bore. Queen of the immortals
is she, surpassing all in beauty: she is the sister and the wife of
loud-thundering Zeus, the glorious one whom all theblessed throughout
high Olympus reverence and honor even as Zeus who delights in
thunder." - Homeric Hymn to Hera

"For Hera sent the Sphinx, whose mother was Echidna and her father
Typhon; and she [the Sphinx] had the face of a woman, the breast and
feet and tail of a lion, and the wings of a bird. And having learned a
riddle from the Muses, she sat on Mount Phicium, and propounded it to
the Thebans. And the riddle was this:-- What is that which has one
voice and yet becomes four-footed and two-footed and three-footed? Now
the Thebans were in possession of an oracle which declared that they
should be rid of the Sphinx whenever they had read her riddle; so they
often met and discussed the answer, and when they could not find it
the Sphinx used to snatch away one of them and gobble him up." -
Apollodorus, Library and Epitome 3.5.8

"So he [Zeus] sat down there upon his throne; but Hera saw, and failed
not to note how silver-footed Thetis, daughter of the old man of the
sea, had taken counsel with him. Forthwith then she spoke to Zeus, son
of Cronos, with mocking words: Who of the gods, crafty one, has now
again taken counsel with you? Always is it your pleasure to hold
aloof from me, and to give judgments which you have pondered in
secret, nor have you ever brought yourself with a ready heart to
declare to me the matter which you devise. In answer to her spoke the
father of men and gods: Hera, do not hope to know all my words: hard
will they prove for you, though you are my wife. Whatever it is
fitting for you to hear, this none other shall know before you,
whether of gods or men; but what I wish to devise apart from the gods,
of all this do not in any way inquire nor ask. In answer to him spoke
the ox-eyed lady Hera..." - Homer, Iliad 1.535-550

In Greece this day was known as the Theogamia of Hera. Both sister
and wife of Zeus, Hera is queen of the gods. She was the third
daughter of Rhea and Cronos, called the "gold-shod Hera". Like her
brothers and sisters (all but Zeus and possibly Poseidon) she was
swallowed by her father as she left her mother's womb, and
regurgitated later when Rhea got tired of having her children
swallowed. After her regurgitation Hera was tended to by the three
Naiades Euryboea, Prosymna, and Acraea. At the Heraeum (an important
temple of Hera's) the environs of the sanctuary is called Euryboea,
the land beneath the Heraeum Prosymna, and the hill opposite the
temple is named Acraea after the three nurses' attendence on the goddess.

The Greeks revered her as protector of marriage, especially married
women. This may be because she had such a difficult marriage herself.
Zeus was not the least bit faithful, always succumbing to his lust for
other women - mortal as well as immortal. Hera herself, however, was
always faithful despite the repeated attentions of others trying to
take her away. Hera was not the first wife of Zeus. His first wife
was Metis, goddess of wisdom. Hesoid believed that she knew more
things than the gods and men put together. Themis was Zeus's second
wife. She was the law that regulated both physical and moral order.
Even after she was replaced by Hera, Themis continued to remain near
Zeus as an advisor, and was always revered on Olympus. She was Zeus's
official consort; Hera's rage however, was a result of the dramatics
that took place throughout their marriage.

Once when Zeus was being partcularly overbearing to the other gods,
Hera convinced them to join in a revolt. Her part in the revolt was to
drug Zeus, and in this she was successful. The gods then bound the
sleeping Zeus to a couch taking care to tie many knots. This done they
began to quarrel over the next step. One of the Hecatonchires
("hundred-handed ones"), Briareus, overheard the arguements. Still
full of gratitude to Zeus for having rescued him from Tartarus,
Briareus slipped in and was able to quickly untie the many knots. Zeus
sprang from the couch and grapped up his thuderbolt. The gods fell to
their knees begging and pleading for mercy --- except for Hera, who
stood aloof and refused to acknowledge him. In fury, Zeus seized Hera
and hung her from the sky with gold chains. She wept in pain all night
but, none of the others dared to interfere. Her weeping kept Zeus up
and the next morning he agreed to release her if she would swear never
to rebel again. She had little choice but to agree. While she never
again rebelled, she often intrigued against Zeus's plans and she was
often able to outwit him.

Hera's sacred animals are the cow and the peacock, a symbol of pride.
Her epithets are Agreie (of Argos), Akraia (of the Heights), Boophis
(Cow/Ox-Eyed), Gamelia (of Marriage), Khera (the Widow), Lakinia,
Leukolenos (White-Armed), Limenia, Nympheuomene (Led as a Bride), Pais
(Maiden), Parthenos (Virgin), Teleia (Accomplisher), Zygia (Uniter).

Hera's counterpart in Rome is Iuno.


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Homer, Apollodorus, Wikipedia

A few months ago, I requested assistance in making the clothes of a
Vestal Virgin.
-------------

> I recently came into possession of multiple weights of pure white
> wool. With that in mind, I wish to make a full set of Vestal

raiment.

> The book sources I have are incomplete, repetitive and circular --
> and have little to no photography.
>
> Can anyone recommend a good source for an indepth
> discussion/dissection of Vestal clothing?

--------------------------

Well, the contest was this last weekend, and, after much research
(and contact w/various professorial types), you can see the results
of my studies at:

http://vesta-aurelia.livejournal.com/12428.html

Paper will be posted later.

Vestinia, called "Vesta"



____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121

Salvete omnes civibus,

Consul L.Arminius Faustus has called the senate into session.

The Contio will beggin since now and will end a.d. X Kal. Feb. MMDCCLX
a.u.c. (23 ianuarius 2007) at 0:00 Rome time.

The voting will beggin at a.d. X Kal. Feb. MMDCCLX a.u.c.(23 ianuarius 2007)
at 0:00 Rome time and end on pr. Kal. Feb. MMDCCLX a.u.c. (31
ianuarius 2007) at 23:59 Rome time.


L. Arminius Faustus dixit> I warn proposals I and II have sub-itens. Item
VII doesn´t need voting, but I advice (optional, for sure) all senatores
to give on
the vote a brief paragraph with their opinions which can be released by the
Tribunes.

I hope the email doesn´t mess the plain text formatting, and apologize by
having no latin on all titles.


***

SENATE AGENDA STARTS


Item I - Appointment of interpreters

Senatores, these citizens answered my edictum calling for interpretes.

1a. Titus Arminius Genialis as interpreter of PORTUGUESE

"I have been interpreter to Portuguese language in the past, but I
asked to be removed because of personal duties. Now, my free time is
available again and I have already started working on the translation
of the Wiki site into Portuguese, having done most of the current
translated pages."

1b. According Lex Cornelia, creation of the office of HUNGARIAN
Interpreter, and appointment of Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus as its
first interpreter.

1c. Titus Octavius Avitus as interpreter of FRENCH.


Item II - Appointment of propraetores proconsulesqve

Senatores, these citizens answered the edictum calling for governors.

2a. Lucius Aurelius Severus as propraetor of CANADA ORIENTALIS.

"As Propraetor of Canada Orientalis, I realize our provincia faces
many challenges, but with my newly acquired position, I am slowly
formulating a plan to increase membership and tax-paying. I ask this
august body to re-appoint me to the position of Propraetor that I may
begin and continue the work necessary to make this a vibrant
provincia."

2b. Gnaeus Iulius Caesar as propraetor of CANADA OCCIDENTALIS.

"I pledge, if prorogued, to continue to give my very best efforts, and
where necessary personal finances, to support the development and
expansion of the activities and citizen-base of the province of Canada
Occidentalis. I further pledge to continue to develop the harmonious
working relationship that exists between my staff; based on the mutual
respect we all have for each other, through the encouragement of their
project leadership roles and delivery of their core functions. I have
extensive experience macronationally in the management of large teams,
the development of large budgets, policy, legislation and the delivery
of core services within the fields of policing and the Justice
Department. Within Nova Roma I have served as a provincial scribe and
legate prior to my appointment as governor, as well as being a senior
officer in Sodalitas Egressus and Sodalitas Militarium. I have served
as Accensus to C. Popillius Laenas and currently serve in that
capacity for Ti. Galerius Paulinus. Last year I served as Quaestor for
the Curule Aedile C. Equitius Cato and this year serve as his
praetorian scribe and Main List moderator."

2c. Titus Arminius Genialis as propraetor of BRASILIA.

"I have been citizen since 2002, having been served as scribe and
legatus to several central and provincial officers. I have worked very
closely to three past Brazilian propraetors, and have taken part in
several provincial projects."

2d. Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus as propraetor of PANNONIA.

2e. Titus Iulius Sabinus as propraetor of DACIA.

2f. Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus as proconsul of LACUS MAGNI.

2g. Caius Curius Saturninus as propraetor of THULE.

2h. Quintus Fabius Maximus as proconsul of CALIFORNIA.

2i. C. Sempronia Graccha Volentia as propraetor of AMERICA
MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SUPERIOR

2j. Fl. Galerius Aurelianus as propraetor of AMERICA AUSTRORIENTALIS

2k. Tiberius Galerius Paulinus as proconsul of AMERICA MEDIATLANTICA.
As a quick note on this, the name of the governor is dependent of the
approval of item III. If Item III is reject, this title of the
governor shall become just "consul".

2l. Marcus Minucius Audens as proconsul of NOVA BRITANNIA.

2m. Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius as propraetor of HISPANIA.

Item III - Senatusconsultum - "De consulibus et proconsulibus"

In keeping with the authority granted to the Senate by Article III,
Paragraph 3, of the Constitution, (Please note that this is a change
only to their title, and has no impact on their duties, powers, and
functions).

Currently-serving Consuls governing provinces shall be titled Consul.

Former Consuls who are continuing to govern a province after their
term as Consul ends shall be titled Proconsul.

Magistrates appointed by the Senate to govern a particular province
for the first time shall be titled Praetor.

Praetors who continue to govern a province after their first term of
office ends shall be titled Propraetor.

Magistrates appointed by governors to assist in the administration of
their province who shares the governor´s Imperium shall be titled
Legate

Item IV - Senatusconsultum - "De Italia"

The attribute "province" is removed from the description of Italy
within Nova Roma.

It will be govern as a province under the rules adopted by the Senate
but will be called Italia.

The "governor" of Italy shall be called Praefectus Italiae. If a
sitting Consul or Praetor resides in Italy and they serve as
"governor" on behalf of the Senate of Nova Roma they shall be called
Consul or Praetor.

Item V - Senatusconsultum - "Senatus Consultum de Regendis Provinciis"

I. The SenatusConsultum of 11 March 2001 is hereby revoked. For all
purposes of this text, the English word "governor" replaces the Latin
terms "propraetor" or "proconsul". In the absence of the consuls,
these instructions should be followed by the magistrate with the
highest Imperium available granted by the Republic (such as the
praetor, dictator or interrex).

II. At the beginning of their terms of office, but prior to the Ides
of February, the consuls are asked to issue an edictum calling for the
governors for the upcoming year. The consuls will be responsible for
setting the period during which applications will be taken in
accordance with their planning of the Senate's agenda.

III. The term of a governor starts immediately after issuance of the
Senate results of the approvals on the Main List. The term of a
governor ends with that of a new governor for the province (or the
same, in case of prorogation) or on the Ides (15th) of March, or
whichever happens first. Any change before the term is the
responsibility of the Senate.

IV. For provinces with a budget at their disposal, the Senate asks the
consuls to choose one of the quaestors to help the governor in making
jointly the report of expenses. The consuls shall take geographic and
cultural patterns into account for making the assignment.

V. The Senate asks the consuls to not accept candidates that are not
allowed by NR law to become governors. If a current governor fails to
send the Senate the financial report of the province (if needed) by
the time for calling of new governors, the Senate advises the consuls
not to accept the name of this citizen for prorogation.

Item VI - Senatusconsultum - "De Aquila"

Senatus Consultum on the Aquila Newsletter.

The Senate authorizes the Editor Commentariorum, Ap. Galerius
Aurelianus, to solicit subscriptions, in an amount determined by him
but not exceeding $20.00USD per subscription for a printed Aquila
Newsletter." Individuals may if the like make donations in addition
to taking out a subscription.

He is further authorized to solicit donations to off-set the costs of
publishing the Aquila newsletter for the year L. Arminio Ti. Galerio
cos. The number of copies, per issue, to be printed shall be
determined by the Editor Commentariorum, with the advice of his staff
and advisors, based on the cost of production, delivery and the amount
of money collected.

The Senate requires that 2/3 of the total cost of the newsletter be
covered by direct subscriptions and / or donations. No more than 1/3
of the total cost will be covered by the Nova Roma treasury.

The Editor Commentariorum, Ap. Galerius Aurelianus, will also publish
or cause to be published, a free web version of the Aquila
newsletter. He shall do so in a manner determined by him

Item VII - Contio about 2/3

"Last year, the subject of the 2/3 of the Senate needed to approve a
constitutional reform has been touched due to many doubts of
interpretation. There was some division of opinions between the
magistrates. The question remained unsolved, and some senatores asked
the current consuls to continue the subject.

There is currently two interpretations of the law, both with merits.
According to the Historical procedures of Ancient Rome, and obeying
the seniority of the conscript fathers, we invite all senatores to
discuss the question,on the hope some light can be better brought to
the subject. There is no voting, just a refreshment of the question.

One interpretation says the text of the Constitution means "2/3 of the
entire Senate" means all citizens entitled to vote in the Senate.

The other means "2/3 of the entire Senate" means all voting senatores,
ie, by "Senate" is recognized the senatores present to a voting.

So we invite the senatores to give their opinions during the voting.

We hope the fathers understand everything on the Republic can be
accomplished with a powerful agreement, and we together can reach to a
reasonable and republican approuch.

SENATE AGENDA FINISHES

Valete bene

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
NOVA ROMA

ADVICE FOR SENATORS


Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, Propraetor Pannoniae, Rogator: Senatui Novo Romano: salutem dicit:

Cn. Cornelius Lentulus, Propraetor Pannoniae, Rogator salutes the Nova Roman Senate:



I would like to advise you, Patres Conscripti, some considerations regarding these proposed SCs.

Fisrtly, I would encourage you, Patres Conscripti, to vote with NO on the following issue:

>>> Item III - Senatusconsultum - "De consulibus et proconsulibus"

(...)

...Magistrates appointed by the Senate to govern a particular province
for the first time shall be titled Praetor.<<<<



Only the People can create a Praetor. Senate can appoint somebody to serve *as Praetor* without being Praetor. This is the Propraetor. I think that this is an important distinction, and that is worth retaining. If we want that provincial governors are Praetors - then they must be elected by the Comitia. Just like in the old republic before L. Sulla. The Senate mustn't appoint Praetors - only Propraetors.

I would encourage our consuls to consider that even Propraetors can be only who have served as Praetors of the republic. The majority of the governors would have to be called otherwise. For example "Legatus pro praetore" That's, I know, the imperial system - but still better than the current one and follows the logic of the republican system. It's just an idea. Perhaps there are better solutions.


Secondly, I would encourage you, Patres Conscripti, to vote with YES on the following issue:

>>> Item IV - Senatusconsultum - "De Italia"<<<

I support it from my whole heart. Italia cannot be a province: we have to consider Italia as our homeland.

I can understand why NR has another nature: NR has a modern concept of central administration where the central administration is abstracted from the territorial system and there is no priority between territories. Romans have another concept, at least during the republic and the early principate: the territory of Rome as a polis (it's identical with Italia in the late republic) is the OWNER of the other territories. So Italia was the owner of the provinces.

I myself am Pannonian, but I (as admirer of Rome) can gladly accept such a copliment for Italia and I can gladly acknowledge its priority and say that Italia is the owner of my province. It would be a pleasure for me.


Curate, Patres Conscripti, uti valeatis, utique Res Publica valeat!


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
R O G A T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------
Vinci i biglietti per FIFA World Cup in Germania!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes!

Datanet did a great job building my new computer, much faster than
expected. I'm back on line and back to the field on Monday. I'll try
my best to keep in touch and partake in the senate proceedings. A
happy new year to you all!

Valete bene,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus

Hi there:
I wonder if anyone (from the group or beyond) can enlighten me!
I just put in an order for a book (not out yet) "The lost gold of Rome -
The Hunt for Alaric's Treasure", slated for publication on 22.02.07 -
see http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0750943971/ref=wl_it_dp/026-
6179959-3928462?ie=UTF8&coliid=I37F8SBPBEFEVK&colid=ZTQNGWOOU8DL
At the end of the book's synopsis (on the above poster) there is a
mention about the "best kept secret of Islam". Could anyone out there
let me know what's this secret? As "secrets" go, obviously someone from
this group would know about it, right? Daniel Costa (the author) can't
be the only person in the world to have discovered it. Or is he?
Thx in advance for any information, Joe Varadi

Fl. Galerius Aurelianus sal.

This is addressed to the members of Nova Roma who appear to be total slaves
to all things that are authentically Roman and cannot fathom that this is an
unrealistic attitude to promote our organization. We all acknowledge that
Nova Roma is not Old Rome and I will not raise the usual arguments about how we
are selective about what we choose to be authentic. This thread started out
because one member was critical about a couple of other members' wishes
about affiliating with a particular gens. I did not note any mention of how good
it would be to have another member in our organization or any positive
comment about welcoming another assidui or about another cultor deorum. There
were also some comment about Nova Roma not being the Society for Creative
Anachronisms, Inc. One principal difference between the organizations is that
Nova Roma is primarily confined to the Internet and has only about 200 paid
members while the SCA has over 35,000 paid or associated members. Another is
that the SCA is usually far more welcoming to new members than Nova Roma.

By the time of the late Republic, Rome incorporated a very large area of
modern Europe, Northern Africa, and bits of Asia. The Romans of antiquity were
willing to grant its citizens and those non-citizens an amazing degree of
tolerance of custom, religion, and familial relation as long as the taxes were
paid and the state was not threatened. I sincerely wish all of Nova Roma's
"authenticity Praetorians" would grant those of us with a slightly different
viewpoint than that held by Cicero or Cato about what it is to be Nova Roman, a
little of the same tolerance.

Point of fact, those Nova Romans who bear the nomen of Galeria have
significantly contributed to our organization by holding events, offices, being
assidui, and promoting Nova Roma. Continued criticism about what the Galeria
choose to do among ourselves could result in the loss of a number of assidui and
active officers. I firmly support the efforts of our magistrates and priests
to bring Nova Roma in line with traditional Romanitas as long as it is
tempered with tolerance and a respect for personal belief.

So, I am politely and publicly asking those of you who want to criticize to
demonstrate a little old style Roman tolerance to those of us who support Nova
Roma but have our own beliefs and customs.

Vale.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:

>
> Fl. Galerius Aurelianus sal.
>
> This is addressed to the members of Nova Roma who appear to be total

slaves

> to all things that are authentically Roman and cannot fathom that

this is an

> unrealistic attitude to promote our organization. We all

acknowledge that

> Nova Roma is not Old Rome and I will not raise the usual arguments

about how we

> are selective about what we choose to be authentic. This thread

started out

> because one member was critical about a couple of other members'

wishes

> about affiliating with a particular gens. I did not note any

mention of how good

> it would be to have another member in our organization or any positive
> comment about welcoming another assidui or about another cultor

deorum. There

> were also some comment about Nova Roma not being the Society for

Creative

> Anachronisms, Inc. One principal difference between the

organizations is that

> Nova Roma is primarily confined to the Internet and has only about

200 paid

> members while the SCA has over 35,000 paid or associated members.

Another is

> that the SCA is usually far more welcoming to new members than Nova

Roma.

>
> By the time of the late Republic, Rome incorporated a very large

area of

> modern Europe, Northern Africa, and bits of Asia. The Romans of

antiquity were

> willing to grant its citizens and those non-citizens an amazing

degree of

> tolerance of custom, religion, and familial relation as long as the

taxes were

> paid and the state was not threatened. I sincerely wish all of

Nova Roma's

> "authenticity Praetorians" would grant those of us with a slightly

different

> viewpoint than that held by Cicero or Cato about what it is to be

Nova Roman, a

> little of the same tolerance.
>
> Point of fact, those Nova Romans who bear the nomen of Galeria have
> significantly contributed to our organization by holding events,

offices, being

> assidui, and promoting Nova Roma. Continued criticism about what

the Galeria

> choose to do among ourselves could result in the loss of a number

of assidui and

> active officers. I firmly support the efforts of our magistrates

and priests

> to bring Nova Roma in line with traditional Romanitas as long as it is
> tempered with tolerance and a respect for personal belief.
>
> So, I am politely and publicly asking those of you who want to

criticize to

> demonstrate a little old style Roman tolerance to those of us who

support Nova

> Roma but have our own beliefs and customs.
>
> Vale.
>

be ware they ran the Cornelia out of most of NR for the Same thing
Sacerdos Templi Mercurius
Primus Sacerdotus Provincia America Boreoccidentalis

House Priest Patrician Gens Cornelia
Marcus Cornelius Felix

Salvete!

It seems to be similar to his previous book, ISBN 1589395743, now out
of print.

I want to remind everyone that the Nova Roma wiki is really convenient
for finding books. Go to
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Special:Booksources and enter an ISBN. You
will be able to buy the book from Amazon in the USA, Canada, the UK,
Germany, Japan and France and you can look for your book in a huge
number of libraries around the world.

optime valete

Agricola

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "josephvaradi" <varadij@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there:
> I wonder if anyone (from the group or beyond) can enlighten me!
> I just put in an order for a book (not out yet) "The lost gold of Rome -
> The Hunt for Alaric's Treasure", slated for publication on 22.02.07 -
> see http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0750943971/ref=wl_it_dp/026-
> 6179959-3928462?ie=UTF8&coliid=I37F8SBPBEFEVK&colid=ZTQNGWOOU8DL
> At the end of the book's synopsis (on the above poster) there is a
> mention about the "best kept secret of Islam". Could anyone out there
> let me know what's this secret? As "secrets" go, obviously someone from
> this group would know about it, right? Daniel Costa (the author) can't
> be the only person in the world to have discovered it. Or is he?
> Thx in advance for any information, Joe Varadi
>

Q. Caecilius Metellus Postumianus Senatui salutem.

Regarding the items currently before you, I only want to comment on one
item, about which Cn. Lentulus has already spoken.

I would as well ask that Item III be voted against (should it be
re-presented later under different terms, I would ask in its favor). I
agree with what Cn. Lentulus has said, and I would add a suggestion to
the convening magistrate, that governors who were not praetors or
consuls were termed "pro praetore" and "pro consule", respectively,
under the Republic. In my opinion, it would be better to return to
using these terms, rather than the later terms "Propraetor" and
"Proconsul", in keeping with our Republican nature.

Senators, I thank you for your service and deep consideration on the
matters at hand.

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XIV Kalendas Februarius; haec dies comitialis est.


"The following year there was no king of the Romans elected, but a
certain magistracy, called by them an interregnum, had the oversight
of public affairs, being created in much the following manner: The
patricians who had been enrolled in the senate under Romulus, being,
as I have said, two hundred in number, were divided into decuriae;Link
to the editor's note at the bottom of this page then, when lots had
been cast, the first ten persons upon whom the lot fell were invested
by the rest with the absolute rule of the State. They did not,
however, all reign together, but successively, each for five days,
during which time they had both the rods and the other insignia of the
royal power. The first, after his power had expired, handed over the
government to the second, and he to the third, and so on the to the
last. After the first ten had reigned their appointed time of fifty
days, ten others received the rule from them, and from those in turn
others. But presently the people decided to abolish the rule of the
decuriae, being irked by all the changes of power, since the men did
not all have either the same purposes or the same natural abilities.
Thereupon the senators, calling the people together in assembly by
tribes and curiae, permitted them to consider the form of government
and determine whether they wished to entrust the public interests to a
king or to annual magistrates. The people, however, did not take the
choice upon themselves, but referred the decision to the senator,
intimating that they would be satisfied with whichever form of
government the others should approve. The senators all favoured
establishing a monarchical form of government, but strife arose over
the question from which group the future king should be chosen. For
some thought that the one who was to govern the commonwealth ought to
be chosen from among the original senators, and others that he should
be chosen from among those who had been admitted afterwards and whom
they called new senators.

The contest being drawn out to a great length, they at last reached an
agreement on the basis that one of two courses should be followed —
either the older senators should choose the king, who must not,
however, be one of themselves, but might be anyone else whom they
should regard as most suitable, or the new senators should do the
same. The older senators accepted the right of choosing, and after a
long consultation among themselves decided that, since by their
agreement they themselves were excluded from the sovereignty, they
would not confer it on any of the newly-appointed senators, either,
but would find some man from outside who would espouse neither party,
and declare him king, as the most effectual means of putting an end to
party strife. After they had come to this resolution, they chose a
man of the Sabine race, the son of Pompilius Pompon, a person of
distinction, whose name was Numa. He was in that stage of life, being
near forty, in which prudence is the most conspicuous, and of an
aspect full of royal dignity; and he enjoyed the greatest renown for
wisdom, not only among the citizens of Cures, but among all the
neighbouring peoples as well. After reaching this decision the
senators assembled the people, and that one of their number who was
then the interrex, coming forward, told them that the senators had
unanimously resolved to establish a monarchical form of government and
that he, having been empowered to decide who should succeed to the
rule, chose Numa Pompilius as king of the State. After this he
appointed ambassadors from among the patricians and sent them to
conduct Numa to Rome that he might assume the royal power. This
happened in the third year of the sixteenth Olympiad [713 B.C.], at
which Pythagoras, a Lacedaemonian, won the foot-race." - Dionysius of
Halicarnassus, "Roman Antiquities" 2.57-58


"In fresh myrtle my blade I'll entwine,
Like Harmodious, the gallant and good,
When he made at the tutelar shrine
A libation of Tyranny's blood." - Edgar Allan Poe (born 19 January
A.D. 1809), "Hymn to Aristogeiton and Harmodius"


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus

Salve Fauste Consul,

I guess that you didn't receive my private message, informing you about my interest to stay as Spanish and French Interpreter and Propraetor of the Mexico Provincia. I didn't see my name in you report about the Senate's agenda.
I hope I am not too late.

Optime vale,

M•IVL•SEVERVS
PROPRÆTOR•PROVINCIƕMEXICO
VIATOR•TRIBVNVS•PLEBIS•M•C•C
SCRIBA•CENSORIS•G•F•B•M
INTERPRETER
MVSÆVS•COLLEGII•ERATOVS•SODALITATIS•MVSARVM
SOCIVS•CHORI•MVSARVM


=
Quality Neck Lanyards in One-Two Days
Fast turnaround and always low prices on blank or custom neck lanyards.
http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=41ecd4113100e8c875b49e64a4309f24


--
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OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XIII Kalendas Februarius; haec dies comitialis est.


"When the ambassadors came to Numa to invite him to the sovereignty,
he for some time refused it and long persisted in his resolution not
to accept the royal power. But when his brothers kept urging him
insistently and at last his father argued that the offer of so great
an honour ought not to be rejected, he consented to become king. As
soon as the Romans were informed of this by the ambassadors, they
conceived a great yearning for the man before they saw him, esteeming
it a sufficient proof of his wisdom that, while the others had valued
sovereignty beyond measure, looking upon it as the source of
happiness, he alone despised it as a paltry thing and unworthy of
serious attention. And when he approached the city, they met him upon
the road and with great applause, salutations and other honours
conducted him into the city. After that, an assembly of the people
was held, in which the tribes by curiae gave their votes in his
favour; and when the resolution of the people had been confirmed by
the patricians, and, last of all, the augurs had reported that the
heavenly signs were auspicious, he assumed the office. The Romans say
that he undertook no military campaign, but that, being a pious and
just man, he passed the whole period of his reign in peace and caused
the State to be most excellently governed. They relate also many
marvellous stories about him, attributing his human wisdom to the
suggestions of the gods. For they fabulously affirm that a certain
nymph, Egeria, used to visit him and instruct him on each occasion in
the art of reigning, though others say that it was not a nymph, but
one of the Muses. And this, they claim, became clear to every one;
for, when people were incredulous at first, as may well be supposed,
and regarded the story concerning the goddess as an invention, he, in
order to give the unbelievers a manifest proof of his converse with
this divinity, did as follows, pursuant to her instructions. He
invited to the house where he lived a great many of the Romans, all
men of worth, and having shown them his apartments, very meanly
provided with furniture and particularly lacking in everything that
was necessary to entertain a numerous company, he ordered them to
depart for the time being, but invited them to dinner in the evening.
And when they came at the appointed hour, he showed them rich couches
and tables laden with a multitude of beautiful cups, and when they
were at table, he set before them a banquet consisting of all sorts of
viands, such a banquet, indeed, as it would not have been easy for any
man in those days to have prepared in a long time. The Romans were
astonished at everything they saw, and from that time they entertained
a firm belief that some goddess held converse with him." - Dionysius
of Halicarnassus, "Roman Antiquities" 2.60


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus

It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the fact that the people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed in chamber and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the doormen of the Senate.

It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens talking his "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we, the Tribuni Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the Senate agenda, the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening magistrate, not general topics.

Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is our obligation to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to be discussed and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.

Valete

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Tribune,

> It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the fact that the people
> of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed in chamber and they
> would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the doormen of the Senate.

This Senator, however, welcomes the people's input; I have changed my opinion on
one proposal based upon what has been said here.

You were entirely correct to post the agenda here, and I thank those citizens who
took the time to consider the issues and make a recommendation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Gracchus
octavius@... * http://www.graveyards.com

-"Apes don't read philosophy."
-"Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it! Let me correct
you on a few things: Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of
Buddhism is not 'every man for himself'. And the London Underground is
not a political movement! Those are all mistakes. I looked them up."
-from "A Fish Called Wanda"

All citizens are invited to participate in editing the web site. Sign up from the
Album Civium: log in and go to "prefs" to obtain a Wiki account.

The next Project of the Nundinum:

Nova Roma Publicity Material

We need to establish a repository of print-worthy documents that can be used to promote Nova Roma.

These could be flyers for posting in public places, or pamphlets to be handed out to individuals.

If you have such files, please upload them in MS-Word, PDF, or PostScript format using the "Upload file" link at left; and in the description include the following category link:

[[Category:Publicity_Material_(Nova_Roma)]]

The archive of uploaded files can be found here:

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Category:Publicity_Material_%28Nova_Roma%29


--
Marcus Octavius Gracchus
octavius@... * http://www.graveyards.com

-"Apes don't read philosophy."
-"Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it! Let me correct
you on a few things: Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of
Buddhism is not 'every man for himself'. And the London Underground is
not a political movement! Those are all mistakes. I looked them up."
-from "A Fish Called Wanda"

Salve:

You have done the right thing. Do not let a particular senator bother you,
ignoring him works wonders. One senator does not set policy.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 1/20/07, M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
>
> It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the fact that the
> people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed in chamber
> and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the doormen of the
> Senate.
>
> It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens talking his
> "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we, the Tribuni
> Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the Senate agenda,
> the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening magistrate, not
> general topics.
>
> Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is our obligation
> to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to be discussed
> and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.
>
> Valete
>
> M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
> TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> NOVA ROMA
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve;
may I add that as a tribune of the plebs you are doing your duty.
And look Senator & Censor Octavius Gracchus has posted his
appreciation.
good work!
bene vale
M.Hortensia Maior Fabiana
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

> Salve:
>
> You have done the right thing. Do not let a particular senator

bother you,

> ignoring him works wonders. One senator does not set policy.
>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus
>
>
> On 1/20/07, M?CVR?COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
> >
> > It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the

fact that the

> > people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed

in chamber

> > and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the

doormen of the

> > Senate.
> >
> > It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens talking his
> > "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we, the

Tribuni

> > Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the

Senate agenda,

> > the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening

magistrate, not

> > general topics.
> >
> > Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is our

obligation

> > to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to be

discussed

> > and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > M?CVRIATIVS?COMPLVTENSIS
> > TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> > NOVA ROMA
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I am glad you have brought this to our attention and I greatly appreciate it as I am sure others do as well. For someone to even suggest such a thing is absurd.

M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote: It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the fact that the people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed in chamber and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the doormen of the Senate.

It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens talking his "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we, the Tribuni Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the Senate agenda, the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening magistrate, not general topics.

Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is our obligation to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to be discussed and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.

Valete

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salveteomnes!

Hodie est ante diem XII Kalendas Februarius; haec dies comitialis est.


After the death of Romulus the senate, being now in full control of
the government and having held the supreme power for one year, as I
have related, began to be at odds with itself and to split into
factions over questions of pre-eminence and equality. For the Alban
element, who together with Romulus had planted the colony, claimed the
right, not only of delivering their opinions first and enjoying the
greatest honours, but also of being courted by the newcomers. Those,
on the other hand, who had been admitted afterwards into the number of
the patricians from among the new settlers thought that they ought not
to be excluded from any honours or to stand in an inferior position to
the others. This was felt particularly by those who were of the Sabine
race and who, in virtue the treaty made by Romulus with Tatius,
supposed they had been granted citizenship by the original inhabitants
on equal terms, and that they had shown the same favour to the former
in their turn. The senate being thus at odds, the clients also were
divided into two parties and each joined their respective factions.
There were, too, among the plebeians not a few, lately admitted into
the number of the citizens, who, having never assisted Romulus in any
of his wars, had been neglected by him and had received neither a
share of land nor any booty. These, having no home, but being poor and
vagabonds, were by necessity enemies to their superiors and quite ripe
for revolution. So Numa, having found the affairs of the State in
such a raging sea of confusion, first relieved the poor among the
plebeians by distributing to them some small part of the land which
Romulus had possessed and of the public land; and afterwards he
allayed the strife of the patricians, not by depriving them of
anything the founders of the city had gained, but by bestowing some
other honours on the new settlers. And having attuned the whole body
of the people, like a musical instrument, to the sole consideration of
the public good and enlarged the circuit of the city by the addition
of the Quirinal hill (for till that time it was still without a wall),
he then addressed himself to the other measures of government,
labouring to inculcate these two things by the possession of which he
conceived the State would become prosperous and great: first, piety,
by informing his subjects that the gods are the givers and guardians
of every blessing to mortal men, and, second, justice, through which,
he showed them, the blessings also which the gods bestow bring honest
enjoyment to their possessors." - Dionysius of Halicarnassus, "Roman
Antiquities" 2.62


"Frenchmen, I die guiltless of the crimes imputed to me. Pray God my
blood fall not on France!" - Last words of King Louis XVI of France,
guillotined on 21 January A.D. 1793

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - Vladimir Ilyich
Ulyanov, better known as Lenin, who died 21 January A.D. 1924


Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Dionysius of Halicarnassus

Q. Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.

For the coming nundinum, beginning today, the calendar will be thus as
decreed by the Collegium Pontificum:

a.d. XI Kal. Feb., Fastus
a.d. X Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. IX Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. VIII Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. VII Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. VI Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. V Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. IV Kal. Feb., Comitialis
a.d. III Kal. Feb., Fastus

There are no feriae publicae stativae to be observed during this nundinum.

For more information on the character of the days, please reference
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Responsum_Pontificum_de_Diebus_%28Nova_Roma%29
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Roman_Calendar
or, as always, you can send a private message to me.

Optime Valete in Pace Deorum,

QVINTVS·CAECILIVS·L·F·SAB·METELLVS·POSTVMIANVS
PONTIFEX

Salvete onmes,

Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the Yahoo news
certainly worth a look:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_gods


Regards,

QSP

Ex hoc, cive scriba meos una cum officiis privilegiis omnibus praescriptis legibus Novae Romae designo. C. Vipsanius Agrippa scriba creantur. Quidquam ius iurandum non poscentur.

Hoc edictum statim valet.

----------------------------------------------------------

On the Creation of Scribae

I hereby appoint the following citizen as my scribe, with all the obligations and privileges prescribed by the laws of Nova Roma. C. Vipsanius Agrippa is appointed scribe. No oath shall be required of him.

This edict is effective immediately.

Given under my hand this twentieth day of January 2760 a.u.c. (20 January 2007 C.E.) in the consulship of L. Armnius Faustus and Ti. Galerius Paulinus.

T. Artoria Marcella


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's wonderful to see this sort of thing, especially given the trouble Hellenic polytheists in Greece have been having in recent, well, centuries.

Some links for anyone interested:
http://www.geocities.com/greekgodslegal/update0406.htm?200722
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/08/wgods08.xml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html
http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm

Valete et khairete,
- M. Apollonius Noctua

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote: Salvete onmes,

Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the Yahoo news
certainly worth a look:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_gods

Regards,

QSP







__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete Noctua et Pauline,

this is excellent news ! I was watching the greek polytheists for quite a
while.

Thank you for sharing this information with us.

Gratiam Ago
Titus Flavius Aquila (from the provinciae Germania)




Re: [Nova-Roma] Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens

It's wonderful to see this sort of thing, especially given the trouble
Hellenic
polytheists in Greece have been having in recent, well, centuries.

Some links for anyone interested:
http://www.geocities.com/greekgodslegal/update0406.htm?200722
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/08/wgods08.xml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html
http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm

Valete et khairete,
- M. Apollonius Noctua

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
Salvete onmes,

Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the Yahoo news
certainly worth a look:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_gods

Regards,

QSP



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

does anybody know how strong our Greek community is ?

Vale optime
Titus Flavius Aquila




----- Forwarded by Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS on 22-01-07 09:05 -----

Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS
To
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
cc

bcc

Subject
Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens





Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS
22-01-07 08:57


Salvete Noctua et Pauline,

this is excellent news ! I was watching the greek polytheists for quite a
while.

Thank you for sharing this information with us.

Gratiam Ago
Titus Flavius Aquila (from the provinciae Germania)




Re: [Nova-Roma] Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens

It's wonderful to see this sort of thing, especially given the trouble
Hellenic
polytheists in Greece have been having in recent, well, centuries.

Some links for anyone interested:
http://www.geocities.com/greekgodslegal/update0406.htm?200722
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/08/wgods08.xml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html
http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm

Valete et khairete,
- M. Apollonius Noctua

"Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:
Salvete onmes,

Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the Yahoo news
certainly worth a look:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_gods

Regards,

QSP



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Agricola Aquilae sal.

Nova Roma has a Sacerdos Apollonis in Cyrene Lucretia Corva
Apollinaris. She has been a citizen since 1999. Many Lucretii and the
Gladii (from which gens we Lucretii moved) and many others are
particularly dedicated to Apollo, as well as following the cultus deorum.

optime vale!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Vogel <tvogel@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> does anybody know how strong our Greek community is ?
>
> Vale optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded by Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS on 22-01-07 09:05 -----
>
> Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS
> To
> Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> cc
>
> bcc
>
> Subject
> Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens
>
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS
> 22-01-07 08:57
>
>
> Salvete Noctua et Pauline,
>
> this is excellent news ! I was watching the greek polytheists for
quite a
> while.
>
> Thank you for sharing this information with us.
>
> Gratiam Ago
> Titus Flavius Aquila (from the provinciae Germania)
>
>
>
>
> Re: [Nova-Roma] Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens
>
> It's wonderful to see this sort of thing, especially given the trouble
> Hellenic
> polytheists in Greece have been having in recent, well, centuries.
>
> Some links for anyone interested:
> http://www.geocities.com/greekgodslegal/update0406.htm?200722
>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/08/wgods08.xml
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html
> http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm
>
> Valete et khairete,
> - M. Apollonius Noctua
>
> "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@> wrote:
> Salvete onmes,
>
> Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the Yahoo news
> certainly worth a look:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_gods
>
> Regards,
>
> QSP
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Agricola,

thank you very much for the information.

optime vale
Titus Flavius Aquila





"M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>
To
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
cc

bcc

Subject
[Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens





"M. Lucretius Agricola" <wm_hogue@...>
Please respond to Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent by: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
22-01-07 09:23


Agricola Aquilae sal.

Nova Roma has a Sacerdos Apollonis in Cyrene Lucretia Corva
Apollinaris. She has been a citizen since 1999. Many Lucretii and the
Gladii (from which gens we Lucretii moved) and many others are
particularly dedicated to Apollo, as well as following the cultus deorum.

optime vale!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Vogel <tvogel@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> does anybody know how strong our Greek community is ?
>
> Vale optime
> Titus Flavius Aquila
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded by Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS on 22-01-07 09:05 -----
>
> Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS
> To
> Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> cc
>
> bcc
>
> Subject
> Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens
>
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Vogel/MUC/AMADEUS
> 22-01-07 08:57
>
>
> Salvete Noctua et Pauline,
>
> this is excellent news ! I was watching the greek polytheists for
quite a
> while.
>
> Thank you for sharing this information with us.
>
> Gratiam Ago
> Titus Flavius Aquila (from the provinciae Germania)
>
>
>
>
> Re: [Nova-Roma] Modern Pagans Honor Zeus In Athens
>
> It's wonderful to see this sort of thing, especially given the trouble
> Hellenic
> polytheists in Greece have been having in recent, well, centuries.
>
> Some links for anyone interested:
> http://www.geocities.com/greekgodslegal/update0406.htm?200722
>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/08/wgods08.xml

>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html
> http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm
>
> Valete et khairete,
> - M. Apollonius Noctua
>
> "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@> wrote:
> Salvete onmes,
>
> Here is an interesting article I found this evening on the Yahoo news
> certainly worth a look:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_eu/greece_ancient_gods
>
> Regards,
>
> QSP
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Tite Flavi,

Titus Flavius Aquila <tvogel@...> writes:

> Salvete omnes,
>
> does anybody know how strong our Greek community is ?

Do you mean the number of Nova Roman citizens who live in Greece? Or the
number who follow Greek religious traditions? Or the number who have Greek
ancestry? Or the number who are interested in Greek culture? Or???

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

G. Popillius Laenas Senator et Consular M. Curiato Computensio SPD

Certainly it was correct for you to report the Senate agenda here on
this list. In fact, it is required by law.

However, it is completely inappropriate for you to paraphrase a
Senator's comments on this Main List that were originally made in
the confidentially of the Senate chambers.

The Tribunes are observers of the Senate, not participants, and all
business conducted in the Senate Chambers, excepting the agenda and
the subsequent votes, is confidential.

------------------------------------------

>
> On 1/20/07, M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
> >
> > It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the

fact that the

> > people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed

in chamber

> > and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the

doormen of the

> > Senate.
> >
> > It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens talking his
> > "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we, the

Tribuni

> > Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the

Senate agenda,

> > the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening

magistrate, not

> > general topics.
> >
> > Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is our

obligation

> > to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to be

discussed

> > and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
> > TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> > NOVA ROMA
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Popillio Laeno salutem dicit

Regarding the office of Tribune the constitution states: "To be privy to
the debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens informed as to the subjects
and results thereof, in such manner and subject to such restrictions as may
be defined by law."

I am of the belief that the tribune in question was within his right to
indicate that opposition was raised as his reporting of the agenda of the
senate. If he broke a law please indicate which law he violated ("...as may
be defined by law.").

If the Consuls want to define how reporting should be done they can issue an
Edict, which has the force of law (i.e., "as may be defined by law."),
indicating how the Tribunes will do their jobs. Seems appropriate since
both Consuls have been tribunes and know the office well. As it stands
Tribune Complutensis has done nothing wrong and I support his actions.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Censor

On 1/22/07, gaiuspopilliuslaenas <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> G. Popillius Laenas Senator et Consular M. Curiato Computensio SPD
>
> Certainly it was correct for you to report the Senate agenda here on
> this list. In fact, it is required by law.
>
> However, it is completely inappropriate for you to paraphrase a
> Senator's comments on this Main List that were originally made in
> the confidentially of the Senate chambers.
>
> The Tribunes are observers of the Senate, not participants, and all
> business conducted in the Senate Chambers, excepting the agenda and
> the subsequent votes, is confidential.
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So when we have 2 Consuls that were not Tribunes then it may be inappropriate?
My understanding was that all was public except the discussions of the Senators. The comments are fine and of course have been reported in the past.

Macrus Bianchius Antonius

"David Kling (Modianus)" <tau.athanasios@...> wrote:
Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Popillio Laeno salutem dicit

Regarding the office of Tribune the constitution states: "To be privy to
the debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens informed as to the subjects
and results thereof, in such manner and subject to such restrictions as may
be defined by law."

I am of the belief that the tribune in question was within his right to
indicate that opposition was raised as his reporting of the agenda of the
senate. If he broke a law please indicate which law he violated ("...as may
be defined by law.").

If the Consuls want to define how reporting should be done they can issue an
Edict, which has the force of law (i.e., "as may be defined by law."),
indicating how the Tribunes will do their jobs. Seems appropriate since
both Consuls have been tribunes and know the office well. As it stands
Tribune Complutensis has done nothing wrong and I support his actions.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Censor

On 1/22/07, gaiuspopilliuslaenas <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
>
> G. Popillius Laenas Senator et Consular M. Curiato Computensio SPD
>
> Certainly it was correct for you to report the Senate agenda here on
> this list. In fact, it is required by law.
>
> However, it is completely inappropriate for you to paraphrase a
> Senator's comments on this Main List that were originally made in
> the confidentially of the Senate chambers.
>
> The Tribunes are observers of the Senate, not participants, and all
> business conducted in the Senate Chambers, excepting the agenda and
> the subsequent votes, is confidential.
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XI Kalendas Februarius; haec dies fastus est.


ROMAN IDENTITY AND HONOR

It was to others that a Roman had to look for any confirmation of his
ability and identity. In Roman society confirmation by others was
sought as well as required. Be they the elders of his family, his
patron or his clients, army comrades, or even - in an election - the
people of Rome; no Roman could be his own judge, but could see himself
only through the eyes of others.

One needs also to consider that Romans didn't know of modern day
psychology and hence did not analyze their thoughts and feelings. They
looked not inwards but to others to understand themselves. For it was
the opinion of others which dictated the opinion a Roman ultimately
held of himself. 'A good man' was hence a man deemed worthy by
others, a man deemed honorable. But so too, in the Roman mind set
honorable was only what was actually honored. Glory or honor were also
measured only in the recognition it drew from others.

Great, noble deeds might be done, but without people knowing of them
there was no glory, no fame and no advantage to be gained from them.
And to Romans the only advantage to be gained from glory and honour
was to use it to climb the social ladder. Any credit among one's
fellow men gained by one's ability, either in office or on the
battlefield, was immediately used to further one's political fortunes;
all in the hope of finally achieving that distant goal - a seat in the
Roman senate. Hence any achievement was blatantly bragged about to
make absolutely sure everyone knew about it. And anyone too dignified
to do the bragging oneself, simply found others who would do it for
them. And so in Rome, where nobility, military and political
leadership were all intertwined, there would be no end of bragging,
showing-off and a boundless supply of flattering rumours.

But in a society in which so much depended on the light in which
others saw you, their view could not only elevate you, but so too it
could destroy you. Any news, be it good or bad, spread like wildfire
in a society that spent much of the day gossiping in the public baths,
or mingling at the forum. Graffiti was scribbled on walls, and in the
inns drunken songs might ridicule the high and mighty. In the theatres
actors would in their plays praise or deride public figures of the
day. And so Rome was a city of rumours, for the entertainment of the
many and for the advancement of those whose worst fate could be, not
to be talked about.

"The Lyre sets in the evening: it is a rainy day." - Columella

"Outside the cave he [Hermes] found a tortoise feeding. He cleaned it
out, and stretched across the shell strings made from the cattle he
had sacrificed, and when he had thus devised a lyre he also invented a
plectrum ... When Apollon heard the lyre, he exchanged the cattle for
that. And as Hermes was tending the cattle, this time he fashioned a
shepherd's pipe which he proceeded to play. Covetous also of this,
Apollon offered him the golden staff which he held when he herded
cattle. But Hermes wanted both the staff and proficiency in the art of
prophecy in return for the pipe. So he was taught how to prophesy by
means of pebbles, and gave Apollon the pipe." - Apollodorus, The
Library 3.112-115

"Within the temple of Apollon Lykios in Argos is a statue of ...
Hermes with a tortoise which he has caught to make a lyre." -
Pausanias, Guide to Greece 2.19.6-7

"Constellation Lyre: Others say that when Mercury [Hermes] first made
the lyre on Mount Cyllene in Arcadia, he made it with seven strings to
correspond to the number of Atlantides, since Maia, his mother, was of
their company. Later, when he had driven away the cattle of Apollo and
had been caught in the act, to win pardon more easily, at Apollo's
request he gave him permission to claim the invention of the lyre, and
received from him a certain staff as reward ... Apollo took the lyre,
and is said to have taught Orpheus on it, and after he himself had
invented the cithara, he gave the lyre to Orpheus." - Hyginus,
Astronomica 2.7

"The clever device of the lyre, it is said, was invented by Hermes,
who constructed it of two horns and a crossbar and a tortoise-shell;
and he presented it first to Apollon and the Mousai, then to Amphion
of Thebes." - Philostratus the Elder, Imagines 1.10

The lyre is one of the most ancient of musical instruments. For
example, in the royal city of Ur (circa 3000 BC) musicians played the
lyre for royalty, according to excavated artifacts.

In Greek mythology, the lyre was invented by Hermes. When only a
child, he pulled a cow-gut across a tortoise shell, and thereby
created the lyre. Hermes gave this lyre to his half-brother Apollo
(both were fathered by Zeus). As the god of music, Apollo became
associated with the instrument.

Orpheus was given the instrument by Apollo when only a child, and the
Muses taught him to use it. Even Nature herself would stop to listen,
enraptured by his music. When Eurydice, the wife of Orpheus, died
from a snake bite and was taken to the Underworld, Orpheus followed in
hopes of bringing her back. His playing convinced Hades to release
Eurydice, providing Orpheus didn't look back at her during the journey
home - but just as he emerged into the sunlight Orpheus turned and
gazed upon his wife, and lost her forever.

There are several versions about the death of Orpheus. In the most
widespread version Dionysus invades Thrace, home of Orpheus, and the
female followers of Dionysus (the Maenads) tear Orpheus from limb to
limb. His head is thrown into the river Hebrus, where it floats to
Lesbos, singing the entire time. The lyre of Orpheus is also thrown
into the river, and it too floats to Lesbos, beached near the temple
of Apollo. Apollo then convinces Zeus that the instrument should
become a constellation. Zeus agrees, and places the lyre of Orpheus
between Hercules and Cygnus.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Hyginus, Columella, Pausanius, Apollodorus, Philostratus,
www.roman-empire.net, Wikipedia

Marcus Curiatius Complutensis G. Popili Laenas SPD


Well, it is not appropriate for me to paraphrase a commentary of a senator.......but is appropriate for him to comment on the duties of the tribuni saying that only they must keep the Senate doors ?

Cura ut valeas

M�CVRIATIVS�COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIA
SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
NOVA ROMA


----- Mensaje original -----
De: gaiuspopilliuslaenas
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 22 de enero de 2007 15:25
Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: FROM THE ROSTRA


G. Popillius Laenas Senator et Consular M. Curiato Computensio SPD

Certainly it was correct for you to report the Senate agenda here on
this list. In fact, it is required by law.

However, it is completely inappropriate for you to paraphrase a
Senator's comments on this Main List that were originally made in
the confidentially of the Senate chambers.

The Tribunes are observers of the Senate, not participants, and all
business conducted in the Senate Chambers, excepting the agenda and
the subsequent votes, is confidential.

------------------------------------------

>
> On 1/20/07, M�CVR�COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
> >
> > It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the

fact that the

> > people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is discussed

in chamber

> > and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the

doormen of the

> > Senate.
> >
> > It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens talking his
> > "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we, the

Tribuni

> > Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the

Senate agenda,

> > the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening

magistrate, not

> > general topics.
> >
> > Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is our

obligation

> > to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to be

discussed

> > and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > M�CVRIATIVS�COMPLVTENSIS
> > TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> > NOVA ROMA
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G. Popillius Laenas G. Fabio Buteo Modiano SPD

You certainly have the right to your opinion. The is no law that I
believe was violated, only the procedure of the Senate that requires
Senators comments in Chambers be kept confidential. Indeed, it is
up to the Consuls to enforce those protocalls as they see fit.

In my opinion, the Tribune took the Senaotr's comments personally
and used this forum to grouse about it. I feel that is
inappropriate behavior and an abuse of his right to observe Senate
procedings.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "David Kling (Modianus)"
<tau.athanasios@...> wrote:

>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus C. Popillio Laeno salutem dicit
>
> Regarding the office of Tribune the constitution states: "To be

privy to

> the debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens informed as to

the subjects

> and results thereof, in such manner and subject to such

restrictions as may

> be defined by law."
>
> I am of the belief that the tribune in question was within his

right to

> indicate that opposition was raised as his reporting of the agenda

of the

> senate. If he broke a law please indicate which law he violated

("...as may

> be defined by law.").
>
> If the Consuls want to define how reporting should be done they

can issue an

> Edict, which has the force of law (i.e., "as may be defined by

law."),

> indicating how the Tribunes will do their jobs. Seems appropriate

since

> both Consuls have been tribunes and know the office well. As it

stands

> Tribune Complutensis has done nothing wrong and I support his

actions.

>
> Vale:
>
> Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Censor
>
> On 1/22/07, gaiuspopilliuslaenas <gaiuspopillius@...> wrote:
> >
> > G. Popillius Laenas Senator et Consular M. Curiato Computensio

SPD

> >
> > Certainly it was correct for you to report the Senate agenda

here on

> > this list. In fact, it is required by law.
> >
> > However, it is completely inappropriate for you to paraphrase a
> > Senator's comments on this Main List that were originally made in
> > the confidentially of the Senate chambers.
> >
> > The Tribunes are observers of the Senate, not participants, and

all

> > business conducted in the Senate Chambers, excepting the agenda

and

> > the subsequent votes, is confidential.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Marco Bianchio Antonio salutem dicit

"So when we have 2 Consuls that were not Tribunes then it may be
inappropriate?"

I was indicating, sorry for not being more obvious, that since both of our
Consuls are former tribunes that they know and understand the office of
tribune. This is not to say that other non-former-tribune Consuls would
know how the office of tribune works. My statement was only indicating that
since both of our consuls are familiar with the office of tribune it would
be easier for them to draft an Edict (perhaps jointly) on how reporting of
the senate should be done. I hope that helps clarify my position.

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 1/22/07, Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@...> wrote:
>
> So when we have 2 Consuls that were not Tribunes then it may be
> inappropriate?
> My understanding was that all was public except the discussions of the
> Senators. The comments are fine and of course have been reported in the
> past.
>
> Macrus Bianchius Antonius
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G Popillius Laenas M. Curiato Complutenso SPD

A Senator may comment on any subject he so wishes on the Senate
list, of course, including his views on the role of the Tribunes in
the Senate.

The Senator in question was in error, and he might have stated his
questions/concerns more tactfully, but he certainly had the right to
voice them. In my opinion, commenting on his remarks here was
inapropriate.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M·C·C· <complutensis@...> wrote:
>
> Marcus Curiatius Complutensis G. Popili Laenas SPD
>
>
> Well, it is not appropriate for me to paraphrase a commentary of a
senator.......but is appropriate for him to comment on the duties of
the tribuni saying that only they must keep the Senate doors ?
>
> Cura ut valeas
>
> M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
> TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> PROPRAETOR HISPANIA
> SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
> NOVA ROMA
>
>
> ----- Mensaje original -----
> De: gaiuspopilliuslaenas
> Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: lunes, 22 de enero de 2007 15:25
> Asunto: [Nova-Roma] Re: FROM THE ROSTRA
>
>
> G. Popillius Laenas Senator et Consular M. Curiato Computensio
SPD
>
> Certainly it was correct for you to report the Senate agenda
here on
> this list. In fact, it is required by law.
>
> However, it is completely inappropriate for you to paraphrase a
> Senator's comments on this Main List that were originally made
in
> the confidentially of the Senate chambers.
>
> The Tribunes are observers of the Senate, not participants, and
all
> business conducted in the Senate Chambers, excepting the agenda
and
> the subsequent votes, is confidential.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> >
> > On 1/20/07, M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It seems to be that some Senators do not like anything the
> fact that the
> > > people of Nova Roma knows the matters on which it is
discussed
> in chamber
> > > and they would like that the Tribuni Plebis were only the
> doormen of the
> > > Senate.
> > >
> > > It seems to be that they do not want to have citizens
talking his
> > > "business" in the ML, they do not remember the fact that we,
the
> Tribuni
> > > Plebis, are required by law to post the Senate calls and the
> Senate agenda,
> > > the text of the Senate agenda as presented by the convening
> magistrate, not
> > > general topics.
> > >
> > > Though the law does not require it to us, I believe that is
our
> obligation
> > > to know and to make to know the matters which it is going to
be
> discussed
> > > and which can affect the populus of Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > Valete
> > >
> > > M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
> > > TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
> > > NOVA ROMA
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>