Dear maior,after becoming a roma nova citizen,how is
my document and other documents is going to be
processed
--- Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:

> Maior Scauro spd;
> oh my, you've shocked me. And you know..I must
> write to Cordus
> about this matter.
> Maior
> >
> > Scaurus Maiori SPD.
> >
> > Scripsisti:
> >
> > > my apologies, I was told you were married not a
> widower. But
> > > traditionally in Rome, a flamen who was widowed
> automatically
> resigned
> > > his flaminate. Especially the Flamen
> Quirinalis. It's a grave
> offense.
> > > Eheu...
> >
> > I was not Flamen Quirinalis at the time of my
> wife's passing.
> >
> > And you can't resist even throwing your venom at
> me over my wife's
> > dead body. Scholastica is so right about you.
> You were marginally
> > more pleasant when you still had the pretence of
> Buddhism.
> >
> > And when I need advice on sacra from you I shall
> be as dead as my
> wife.
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > Scaurus
> >
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Suetonius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@...> wrote:

> Any one know of someone who can trace my family line
> back to Ancient Rome? Maybe my grandmother 60 generations back
> shacked up with a Roman while they were there. In short, I would
> give my eyed teeth to any expert who could trace my ancestory that
> far back!
>
> 3)Is there any family from the upper crust of European society today
> that can actually trace their way back to some famous Roman
> aristocrat or great business innovating family? If so, who are they
> and are records of their's public? Perhaps there are church records
> or documents within the city of Rome herself that didn't disappear
> over the dark ages. Many researchers do say however, that past the
> 12 th century, things get really obscured and murky.

LVT: I have traced both mine and my wife's ancestory back from the US
to France (Gaul) to Ancient Rome through the World Family Tree via
Family Tree Maker software resources and other sources. I located
several Roman prefects in Gaul, as well as a lineage for both me and
my wife to the ancient Iulii and Claudii. The world family tree is
supposed to be "authenticated," but it may be all hogwash...I don't know.

I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned down due
to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
never understood and personally felt was rather silly.

Vale optime,
Triarius

Salve Quinte Suetoni,

Quintus Suetonius Paulinus writes:

[...]

> 1) Since the changes to the family and Pater familias status were
> changed two years back, how can one entering NR become a Patrician
> now?

1. Be born into a patrician familia.
2. Be adopted into a patrician familia.

> 2) I found out I have some Spanish and Portugese in my ancestory on
> my mother's side due to family adventures in the Napoleonic
> Peninsular War. Any one know of someone who can trace my family line
> back to Ancient Rome? Maybe my grandmother 60 generations back
> shacked up with a Roman while they were there. In short, I would
> give my eyed teeth to any expert who could trace my ancestory that
> far back!

You can send a DNA sample to one of the several groups doing deep ancestry
research, but that won't get you a name by name family tree. It *will* tell
you how your remote ancestors migrated around over the millennia.

We do have a few people in Nova Roma who are fortunate enough to have family
genealogies that go back over a thousand years, but they are very few.
Perhaps one of them can advise you. My own research has mostly used my
mother's excellent memoirs and the resources of Rootsweb and Ancestry.com.

> 3)Is there any family from the upper crust of European society today
> that can actually trace their way back to some famous Roman
> aristocrat or great business innovating family?

Yes.

> If so, who are they
> and are records of their's public?

Yes. You can see several of these at Ancestry.com

> Perhaps there are church records
> or documents within the city of Rome herself that didn't disappear
> over the dark ages. Many researchers do say however, that past the
> 12 th century, things get really obscured and murky.

Yes, I'd agree with that.

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salvete Omnes,

> LVT: I have traced both mine and my wife's ancestory back from the US
> to France (Gaul) to Ancient Rome through the World Family Tree via
> Family Tree Maker software resources and other sources. I located
> several Roman prefects in Gaul, as well as a lineage for both me and
> my wife to the ancient Iulii and Claudii. The world family tree is
> supposed to be "authenticated," but it may be all hogwash...I don't

know.

>
> I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned down due
> to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
> never understood and personally felt was rather silly.
>
> Vale optime,
> Triarius

SAS: this is quite interesting as you may know that the French
revolution burnt almost any record detained by the churches. Could you
please tell us how exactly you achived such a search in France (Gaul)?
Thank you very much.

Optime valete,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Salve Luci Vitelli,

L. Vitellius Triarius writes:
[...]

> I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned down due
> to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
> never understood and personally felt was rather silly.

I just looked this up in the census database, and what I see recorded there is
that you originally applied for citizenship on 25 January 2005, and on 2
February 2005 you decided to withdraw your application to join Iulia and
instead asked to join Vitellia.

Perhaps you can clarify what 'time limit requirement' was mentioned?


CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Caius Aemilius Crassus Quinto Seutonio Paulino
omnibusque SPD,

> On another list we got some comments from a chap who
> does not wish
> to be part of NR because of some of our various
> policies. One point
> he made was that he is descended from a Roman family
> of the
> Patrician class and thinks he should be accepted
> into NR as such.
> I'll answer his question out of courtesy but I need
> to know:

In my personal opinion I would have strong
reservations concerning any claim of that type unless
supported with many and very strong proves.

> 2) I found out I have some Spanish and Portugese in
> my ancestory on
> my mother's side due to family adventures in the
> Napoleonic
> Peninsular War. Any one know of someone who can
> trace my family line
> back to Ancient Rome? Maybe my grandmother 60
> generations back
> shacked up with a Roman while they were there. In
> short, I would
> give my eyed teeth to any expert who could trace my
> ancestory that
> far back!

If you want I donÂ’t mind to try to search the free
information to try to find some information that you
would be interested. But since my free time is very
sparse at the moment it could be a while before I can
give back any information that I might find, supposing
there is any.

Di te incolumem custodiant.




____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265

Salvete omnes

Here are the answers to the second set of questions, and the final
scores. And what a good team you were.


11. What is the name of the outdoor area where you might exercise
before entering the baths?
the Palaestra

12. After entering the baths, where would you change out of your
street clothes?
the Apodyterium which had cubicles or shelves where you could tuck
away your clothing and other belongings while you bathed.


13. Not the caldarium, but the name of the hot, dry area within the
baths, maybe not provided in the ladies' area, and nowadays sometimes
used to describe a Turkish bath? Not somewhere to stay and relax for
too long!
My answer was the Laconicum , but I am indebted to Triarius for the
Sudatorium a dry sauna-like bath (also known as the raconicium) which
induced heavy perspiration with dry, heated air.


14. What types of food might be sold within the bath area? Seneca
complained about the noise made by some of these merchants.
Oh, my hunters and gatherers have done well on this one. What a
feast! Cakes, sausages, eggs, slices of toasted honey bread. Nuts,
Wine/Alcohol, Hog's Fat, fruit, cutlets, confectionery.

15. What action by whom convinced Lars Porsena (see Ludi Martiales
questions and answers) to make peace with Rome. What was this
person's name, before and after he lost what?
Gaius Mucius held his right hand in the fire until it burnt away.
After this event he was called Gaius Mucius Scaevola (the left-
handed, as he no longer had a right one!). The story itself is that
during the siege of Roma, a young Roman of noble birth, Gaius Mucius,
enters the enemy camp and tries to assassinate king Porsenna.
However, instead of killing him, he kills one of his secretaries.
When he is brought before Porsenna, Gaius shows his contempt for
torture and pain by voluntarily placing his right hand in a fire.
Impressed by this steadfastness, Porsenna releases him. After his
return to the city, Mucius is surnamed Scaevola ("left handed") and
the senate rewards him with a grant of land west of the river, the
Mucia Prata, "Mucian Meadows". There are several variants on this
story.

16. In the form of what natural object was Cybele brought to and
worshipped in Roma?
Cybele, like the Ephesian Artemis and many other goddesses, was also
venerated in the form of a holy black conical stone / a black
meteorite. Once this stone had been brought to Rome, both stone and
goddess were worshipped in the Roman Empire until the 4th century CE.

17. Name of Greek goddess associated with Ceres?
Demeter

18. Because of what event was Ceres introduced to Roma?
On the advice of the Sibylline books, the cult of Ceres, Liber and
Libera was introduced into Roma to check a famine

19. Who was the consort of Ceres?
The answer I was looking for is Liber. But not Jupiter - his consort
and wife was Juno (Hera). However, Pius has found a reference to
Ceres being the wife-sister of Jupiter, so I have also awarded him a
point

20. The collective name for the group of twelve Gods especially
honoured by the Romans?
Dii Consentes



And so all the contestants are awarded full marks for the second set
of questions. The final scores are therefore as follows:-

L. Vitellius Triarius 20
Marca Hortensia Maior 19.5
Titus Octavius Pius 18


I declare L. Vitellius Triarius the winner. Well done to him, and
well done to you all. A most worthy team.

Goodbye for now. I hope to meet you again in a further certamen later
in the year.
My thanks to those who took part, those who watched and learned, and
to the Cohors Aedilicia Cytheridis et Marcellae for arranging the
games.

Valete optime!
G. Marcius Crispus

In a message dated 4/10/2007 6:53:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lucius_vitellius_triarius@... writes:

LVT: I have traced both mine and my wife's ancestory back from the US
to France (Gaul) to Ancient Rome through the World Family Tree via
Family Tree Maker software resources and other sources. I located
several Roman prefects in Gaul, as well as a lineage for both me and
my wife to the ancient Iulii and Claudii. The world family tree is
supposed to be "authenticated,supposed to be "authenticated,<WBR>" but it

Salvete

I'd assume hogwash. The French Revolution pretty much destroyed the records
of births to whom in what family UNLESS you of the great nobility and fled to
England, Ireland, Spain or the New World with your records, which many did do.
The French Revolution was a true revolution eliminating the nobility and
their records unlike the American War of Independence.

It cripples we historians anytime we need to research in France past the
1790s. And if your family is of the great nobility, congrats.




I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned down due
to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
never understood and personally felt was rather silly.

I was unaware that there was a time limit, unless that was a Censoral Edictum
I missed. I know the Senate never discussed it as a lex. Perhaps you could
explain further?


Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CYBELE AND BEFORE: THE MAGNA MATER

by C. Aurelia Falco Silvana

In the Ludi Megalenses, we honor the Magna Mater, the "Great Mother." More than the "mother of the Gods," she is "mother of all".

The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature. This aspect of universal motherhood was the comprehensive feature of her character most frequently emphasized in the various cult titles applied to her. She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but "of all men" as well. She was the "Mistress of All," the "All-Nourisher," and "All-Begetter," the "Mighty Mother," and the "Mother of Zeus Himself." (1)

The Dictionary of Greek & Roman Antiquities defines Magna Mater simply as, "A Roman name of the goddess Rhea." (2) Rhea was considered to be the mother of the Olympian Gods of Greece, and therefore "Mother of the Gods." (3) However, it was as Cybele that the Magna Mater became deeply entwined with both religious practice and political life in the Roman world.

The Goddess Cybele was a foreign deity deliberately imported into Rome in 204 BCE. The Romans had suffered great losses in the Punic War, and in desperation turned to the Sibylline Books to learn how to defeat Hannibal. The Sibylline Books and the Oracle of Apollo both gave the same

message: the Phyrgian Goddess Cybele must come to Rome. Her cult centre at Pessinus preserved a small black stone, said to have fallen

from heaven, which represented the Goddess. (1) This stone was carried to Rome via Ostia by ship. The poet Ovid describes the process of hauling the ship upriver against the current (4), with the Goddess herself intervening to refloat the ship when it grounded on a sandbar in the Tiber. (5).

Once safely in Rome, Cybele's power was assured when the Romans defeated the Carthaginians at Zama in 202 BCE, and a bumper crop of wheat followed. A temple was built on the Palatine between 204 and 191 BCE to honor her (6), and dedicated on April 11, 191 BCE. The sacred black stone was inset into the face of her statue.(7) However, various larger statues of the Goddess exist. She usually wears a tall headdress representing the walls of a fortress or of a city. She may be holding a tambourine-shaped drum and a staff, and is frequently shown with lions, her sacred animal.

http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio4/1/1-1_4.jpg


Even classical sources vary in how they recount the legends of the Magna Mater. (1), (5) The most significant myth associated with Cybele is the story of Attis. Some threads of his story are that the Mother of the Gods fell in love with the young and very attractive man; to prevent or perhaps to punish unfaithfulness, she drove him mad and caused him to castrate himself beneath a tree. Droplets of his blood fell to the ground and sprang up as violets. Attis subsequently died and was transformed into a pine tree.(8), (9)

For this reason, violets and pine trees are sacred to him.

The cult of Cybele incorporated her role as fertility Goddess with the

frenzy of Attis's madness. Her priests were called Galli; all were castrated, reputedly self-castrated. They wore women's clothing, and essentially gave up the male role in honor of the Goddess. The article on the Galli in Smith's Dictionary of Greek & Roman Antiquities is richly linked to classical sources. (10) There is also some suggestion that the grave of a Gallus has been found in Britain. (11)

The Ludi Megalenses were first instituted to celebrate the dedication

of the Temple of Cybele in 191 B.C. On the last day of the games, the Megalesia was celebrated as the birthday of the Goddess. For the duration of the festival, devotees and priest led riotous processions through the city, bearing her statue on a litter.

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/largeImage?workNumber=NG902&collectionPublisherSection=work

Where is the Magna Mater in our modern world?


The concept of a Goddess-mother / mother Goddess is much older than Roman civilization and more widespread. We know that our ancestors, even before written history, recognized and reverenced the life-giving female principle. Figurines from Paleolithic times onward "incorporated" the Prima Genetrix in the truest sense of the word, and tell us of that reverence across the spans of time.

http://www.ugr.es/~jmarting/ASIGN.HAAM/repaso1cuatrimestre/ampliaciones/laussel.jpg

Through pre-tribal life, through villages and agricultural societies, through civilizations that brought trade, war, literature, plague, science and philosophy, at every step of the way we have preserved the gut-level awe of life's generative principle. We have carved, painted, danced, sung, written, told and re-told a necessary reverence for the life principle.

The link has never been lost. When parts of civilization have gone scientifically atheistic, other societies remembered the Gods. Ironic, then, that science itself should give us the greatest evidence for the Mother of All humankind-not merely the concept of the Magna Mater, but the real, physical, human person of our Prima Genetrix.

We now know that she is in our very bones and the muscles that animate our bodies. The energy factories that power each of our cells, the mitochondria, have their own DNA, and are passed through the female line. Researchers Cann and Wilson, in Scientific American, write: ". . . genetic comparisons convince us that all humans today can be traced along maternal lines of descent to a woman who lived about 200,000 years ago, probably in Africa. Modern humans arose in one place and spread elsewhere."

We, each and every one, carry within us the heritage of the Magna Mater, of whom Cybele and Rhea are more recent representations.

And if our tattered planet seems less well now than when Rome spread her wings, perhaps we should look both inward to our origins and outward to our world, with greater reverence to the life that flows from the Magna Mater. Can we work to conserve the living world, to step back from actions that may be destructive? Can we take time to celebrate life with a full heart and full commitment? Beyond reverence of the spirit, can we bring ourselves to honor her through our actions?

REFERENCES:

The Magna Mater Project (site dedicated entirely to the Magna Mater and restoration of her temple).

http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/cult.htm

FURTHER DETAILS ABOUT IMAGES HERE:

IMAGE: The introduction of the cult of Cybele at Rome (ca. 1505), by Andrea Mategna, at

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG902

IMAGE: Altar dedicated to Cybele and Attis. at

http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Schede/MGEs/MGEs_Sala16_03_040.html

IMAGE: Ostia Antica, Regio IV, Insula 1: Tempio della Magna Mater

http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio4/1/1-1.htm

IMAGE: Venus of Laussel

Facultad de Filosofia y Letras, Universidad de Granada: Historia del ArteAntiguo y Medieval--Galería de Imágenes: De la Prehistoria a la Época Clásica


(Venus of Laussel)

http://www.ugr.es/~jmarting/ASIGN.HAAM/repaso1cuatrimestre/repaso1cuatrimestrehaam.html

(1) PAGAN REGENERATION, by Harold R. Willoughby, 1929.

Chapter V, Section 1: The regenerative rites of the Great Mother, at

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr07.htm


(2) DICTIONARY OF CLASSICAL ANTIQUITIES, by Oskar Seyffert (1894).

Page 372, at

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/seyffert/0545.html

(3) Ibid, p. 542

(4) FASTI, IV, 291-328, by Publius Ovidius Naso, at

http://www.ostia-antica.org/~atexts/ovidius.htm

(5) OSTIA ANTICA: Regio IV, Insula 1 - Campo della Magna Mater -- Introduction, at

http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio4/1/1.htm

(6) A TOPOGRAPHICAL DICTIONARY OF ANCIENT ROME, by Samuel

Ball Platner (rev. Thomas Ashby). London: Oxford University Press,

1929. (pp323-326) at

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/PLATOP*/Aedes_Matris_Deum.html

(7) THE SEVEN BOOKS OF ARNOBIUS AGAINST THE HEATHEN

(Adversus Gentes), Book VII, 49. Translated by Archdeacon Hamilton Bryce, LL.D., D.C.L., and Hugh Campbell, M.a. first published by T&T Clark, Edinburgh 1867. Additional introductory material and notes for the American edition by A. Cleveland Coxe, 1886; at

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txua/arnobiu7.htm


(8) ATTIS -- Catullus #63, at

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Courses/ISSI402/CourseHandouts/Attis.htm#Catullus'%20%22Attis%22

(9) METAMORPHOSES, Book X, by Publius Ovidius Naso, from the

Brooks More edition, Cornhill Publishing Co., 1922, at

http://www.xepher.net/~tsat/stories/metamorphoses.10.html

(10) "The Galli," by Leonhard Schmitz, in William Smith, A Dictionary of

Greek and Roman Antiquities. John Murray, London 1875, at

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Galli.html

(11) "Dig reveals Roman transvestite," BBC, 21 May 2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1999734.stm

(12) Scientific American, "The Recent African Genesis of Humans; New Look

at Human Evolution," Special Editions; by Rebecca L. Cann and Allan C. Wilson; 8 Page(s). May 1, 2003

http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=41743B46-FEB5-AA86-1A2D5EF0BA284305&sc=I100322

ALSO OF INTEREST:

GALLI: ANCIENT ROMAN PRIESTS, in glbtq: an encyclopedia of gay, lesbian bisexual, transgender and queer culture, at

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/galli.html

RELIGIOUS CULTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE AMAZONS, by

Florence Mary Bennet (1912); Chapter 2, "The Great Mother", at

http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/rca/rca03.htm

Scientific American, "Ancient Pioneers Took Coastal Route, DNA Analysis Concludes," by Sarah Graham. May 13, 2005

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00035B8E-BB62-1283-BB6283414B7F0000&sc=I100322

Scientific American, "Rooting the Human Family Tree in Africa," by Kristin Leutwyler December 07, 2000

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008CDDC-29DF-1C68-B882809EC588ED9F&sc=I100322



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete;
this is pretty dubious if not silly. Even the Italian nobles of
Rome don't really try to claim that their bloodlines go back to Roma
Antiqua.
The sensible route is to have your paternal & maternal DNA
anaylsed & enjoy that. If you do it through the National Geographic
genome project it is cheapest & then you can join a surname project
to find genetic relatives.
vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> > LVT: I have traced both mine and my wife's ancestory back from

the US

> > to France (Gaul) to Ancient Rome through the World Family Tree

via

> > Family Tree Maker software resources and other sources. I located
> > several Roman prefects in Gaul, as well as a lineage for both me

and

> > my wife to the ancient Iulii and Claudii. The world family tree

is

> > supposed to be "authenticated," but it may be all hogwash...I

don't

> know.
> >
> > I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned

down due

> > to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
> > never understood and personally felt was rather silly.
> >
> > Vale optime,
> > Triarius
>
> SAS: this is quite interesting as you may know that the French
> revolution burnt almost any record detained by the churches. Could

you

> please tell us how exactly you achived such a search in France

(Gaul)?

> Thank you very much.
>
> Optime valete,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>

Salvete omnes,

First, congratulations to L. Vitellius Triarius for his victory in the Certamen Historicum!

The Megalensia was first held on the Palantine Hill in front of the Great Mother's temple. The temple has fallen with time, but not so the Goddess herself. Read the plays of Terence and Plautus, read The Aeneid, and remember their ties to the Magna Mater.

Iulia Caesar Cytheris Aege and I thank our cohors for their work on these ludi and declare the Ludi Megalenses of 2760 a.U.c. to be closed.

Optime valete,
Iulia Caesar Cytheris Aege
T. Artoria Marcella
Curule Aediles


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

It seems this post never made it through.

Valete bene,
Artoria Marcella

CYBELE AND BEFORE: THE MAGNA MATER

by C. Aurelia Falco Silvana

In the Ludi Megalenses, we honor the Magna Mater, the "Great Mother." More than the "mother of the Gods," she is "mother of all".

The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature. This aspect of universal motherhood was the comprehensive feature of her character most frequently emphasized in the various cult titles applied to her. She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but "of all men" as well. She was the "Mistress of All," the "All-Nourisher," and "All-Begetter," the "Mighty Mother," and the "Mother of Zeus Himself." (1)

The Dictionary of Greek & Roman Antiquities defines Magna Mater simply as, "A Roman name of the goddess Rhea." (2) Rhea was considered to be the mother of the Olympian Gods of Greece, and therefore "Mother of the Gods." (3) However, it was as Cybele that the Magna Mater became deeply entwined with both religious practice and political life in the Roman world.

The Goddess Cybele was a foreign deity deliberately imported into Rome in 204 BCE. The Romans had suffered great losses in the Punic War, and in desperation turned to the Sibylline Books to learn how to defeat Hannibal. The Sibylline Books and the Oracle of Apollo both gave the same

message: the Phyrgian Goddess Cybele must come to Rome. Her cult centre at Pessinus preserved a small black stone, said to have fallen

from heaven, which represented the Goddess. (1) This stone was carried to Rome via Ostia by ship. The poet Ovid describes the process of hauling the ship upriver against the current (4), with the Goddess herself intervening to refloat the ship when it grounded on a sandbar in the Tiber. (5).

Once safely in Rome, Cybele's power was assured when the Romans defeated the Carthaginians at Zama in 202 BCE, and a bumper crop of wheat followed. A temple was built on the Palatine between 204 and 191 BCE to honor her (6), and dedicated on April 11, 191 BCE. The sacred black stone was inset into the face of her statue.(7) However, various larger statues of the Goddess exist. She usually wears a tall headdress representing the walls of a fortress or of a city. She may be holding a tambourine-shaped drum and a staff, and is frequently shown with lions, her sacred animal.

http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio4/1/1-1_4.jpg


Even classical sources vary in how they recount the legends of the Magna Mater. (1), (5) The most significant myth associated with Cybele is the story of Attis. Some threads of his story are that the Mother of the Gods fell in love with the young and very attractive man; to prevent or perhaps to punish unfaithfulness, she drove him mad and caused him to castrate himself beneath a tree. Droplets of his blood fell to the ground and sprang up as violets. Attis subsequently died and was transformed into a pine tree.(8), (9)

For this reason, violets and pine trees are sacred to him.

The cult of Cybele incorporated her role as fertility Goddess with the

frenzy of Attis's madness. Her priests were called Galli; all were castrated, reputedly self-castrated. They wore women's clothing, and essentially gave up the male role in honor of the Goddess. The article on the Galli in Smith's Dictionary of Greek & Roman Antiquities is richly linked to classical sources. (10) There is also some suggestion that the grave of a Gallus has been found in Britain. (11)

The Ludi Megalenses were first instituted to celebrate the dedication

of the Temple of Cybele in 191 B.C. On the last day of the games, the Megalesia was celebrated as the birthday of the Goddess. For the duration of the festival, devotees and priest led riotous processions through the city, bearing her statue on a litter.

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/largeImage?workNumber=NG902&collectionPublisherSection=work

Where is the Magna Mater in our modern world?


The concept of a Goddess-mother / mother Goddess is much older than Roman civilization and more widespread. We know that our ancestors, even before written history, recognized and reverenced the life-giving female principle. Figurines from Paleolithic times onward "incorporated" the Prima Genetrix in the truest sense of the word, and tell us of that reverence across the spans of time.

http://www.ugr.es/~jmarting/ASIGN.HAAM/repaso1cuatrimestre/ampliaciones/laussel.jpg

Through pre-tribal life, through villages and agricultural societies, through civilizations that brought trade, war, literature, plague, science and philosophy, at every step of the way we have preserved the gut-level awe of life's generative principle. We have carved, painted, danced, sung, written, told and re-told a necessary reverence for the life principle.

The link has never been lost. When parts of civilization have gone scientifically atheistic, other societies remembered the Gods. Ironic, then, that science itself should give us the greatest evidence for the Mother of All humankind-not merely the concept of the Magna Mater, but the real, physical, human person of our Prima Genetrix.

We now know that she is in our very bones and the muscles that animate our bodies. The energy factories that power each of our cells, the mitochondria, have their own DNA, and are passed through the female line. Researchers Cann and Wilson, in Scientific American, write: ". . . genetic comparisons convince us that all humans today can be traced along maternal lines of descent to a woman who lived about 200,000 years ago, probably in Africa. Modern humans arose in one place and spread elsewhere."

We, each and every one, carry within us the heritage of the Magna Mater, of whom Cybele and Rhea are more recent representations.

And if our tattered planet seems less well now than when Rome spread her wings, perhaps we should look both inward to our origins and outward to our world, with greater reverence to the life that flows from the Magna Mater. Can we work to conserve the living world, to step back from actions that may be destructive? Can we take time to celebrate life with a full heart and full commitment? Beyond reverence of the spirit, can we bring ourselves to honor her through our actions?

REFERENCES:

The Magna Mater Project (site dedicated entirely to the Magna Mater and restoration of her temple).

http://www.magnamaterproject.org/en/cult.htm

FURTHER DETAILS ABOUT IMAGES HERE:

IMAGE: The introduction of the cult of Cybele at Rome (ca. 1505), by Andrea Mategna, at

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG902

IMAGE: Altar dedicated to Cybele and Attis. at

http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Schede/MGEs/MGEs_Sala16_03_040.html

IMAGE: Ostia Antica, Regio IV, Insula 1: Tempio della Magna Mater

http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio4/1/1-1.htm

IMAGE: Venus of Laussel

Facultad de Filosofia y Letras, Universidad de Granada: Historia del ArteAntiguo y Medieval--Galería de Imágenes: De la Prehistoria a la Época Clásica


(Venus of Laussel)

http://www.ugr.es/~jmarting/ASIGN.HAAM/repaso1cuatrimestre/repaso1cuatrimestrehaam.html

(1) PAGAN REGENERATION, by Harold R. Willoughby, 1929.

Chapter V, Section 1: The regenerative rites of the Great Mother, at

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr07.htm


(2) DICTIONARY OF CLASSICAL ANTIQUITIES, by Oskar Seyffert (1894).

Page 372, at

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/seyffert/0545.html

(3) Ibid, p. 542

(4) FASTI, IV, 291-328, by Publius Ovidius Naso, at

http://www.ostia-antica.org/~atexts/ovidius.htm

(5) OSTIA ANTICA: Regio IV, Insula 1 - Campo della Magna Mater -- Introduction, at

http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio4/1/1.htm

(6) A TOPOGRAPHICAL DICTIONARY OF ANCIENT ROME, by Samuel

Ball Platner (rev. Thomas Ashby). London: Oxford University Press,

1929. (pp323-326) at

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/PLATOP*/Aedes_Matris_Deum.html

(7) THE SEVEN BOOKS OF ARNOBIUS AGAINST THE HEATHEN

(Adversus Gentes), Book VII, 49. Translated by Archdeacon Hamilton Bryce, LL.D., D.C.L., and Hugh Campbell, M.a. first published by T&T Clark, Edinburgh 1867. Additional introductory material and notes for the American edition by A. Cleveland Coxe, 1886; at

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txua/arnobiu7.htm


(8) ATTIS -- Catullus #63, at

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Courses/ISSI402/CourseHandouts/Attis.htm#Catullus'%20%22Attis%22

(9) METAMORPHOSES, Book X, by Publius Ovidius Naso, from the

Brooks More edition, Cornhill Publishing Co., 1922, at

http://www.xepher.net/~tsat/stories/metamorphoses.10.html

(10) "The Galli," by Leonhard Schmitz, in William Smith, A Dictionary of

Greek and Roman Antiquities. John Murray, London 1875, at

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Galli.html

(11) "Dig reveals Roman transvestite," BBC, 21 May 2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1999734.stm

(12) Scientific American, "The Recent African Genesis of Humans; New Look

at Human Evolution," Special Editions; by Rebecca L. Cann and Allan C. Wilson; 8 Page(s). May 1, 2003

http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=41743B46-FEB5-AA86-1A2D5EF0BA284305&sc=I100322

ALSO OF INTEREST:

GALLI: ANCIENT ROMAN PRIESTS, in glbtq: an encyclopedia of gay, lesbian bisexual, transgender and queer culture, at

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/galli.html

RELIGIOUS CULTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE AMAZONS, by

Florence Mary Bennet (1912); Chapter 2, "The Great Mother", at

http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/rca/rca03.htm

Scientific American, "Ancient Pioneers Took Coastal Route, DNA Analysis Concludes," by Sarah Graham. May 13, 2005

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00035B8E-BB62-1283-BB6283414B7F0000&sc=I100322

Scientific American, "Rooting the Human Family Tree in Africa," by Kristin Leutwyler December 07, 2000

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008CDDC-29DF-1C68-B882809EC588ED9F&sc=I100322



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete

FYI

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Subject: [Imperial Rome] Origins of the Etruscans: Was Herodotus right?


Now THIS is interesting . . .

Origins of the Etruscans: Was Herodotus right?
International Herald Tribune [France], April 3, 2007

Geneticists have added an edge to a 2,500-year-old debate over the
origin of the Etruscans, a people whose brilliant and mysterious
civilization dominated northwestern Italy for centuries until the rise
of the Roman republic in 510 B.C. Several new findings support a view
held by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus - but unpopular among
archaeologists - that the Etruscans originally migrated to Italy from
the Near East. Though Roman historians played down their debt to the
Etruscans, Etruscan culture permeated Roman art, architecture and
religion. The Etruscans were master metallurgists and skillful seafarers
who for a time dominated much of the Mediterranean.

They enjoyed unusually free social relations, much remarked on by
ancient historians of other cultures. Etruscan culture was very advanced
and very different from other Italian cultures of the time. But most
archaeologists have seen a thorough continuity between a local Italian
culture known as the Villanovan that emerged around 900 B.C. and the
Etruscan culture, which began in 800 B.C.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/arts/snetrus.php<http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/arts/snetrus.php>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve M. Hortensia Maior who said in part

"then you can join a surname project to find genetic relatives."

This is good advise and it is something that I did just this last weekend..
I now await the arrival of my kit for a Y-DNA25 test for my macro
surname.

Genealogy is a great hobby, pastime or vocation. I recommend it highly.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Maior<mailto:rory12001@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salvete;
this is pretty dubious if not silly. Even the Italian nobles of
Rome don't really try to claim that their bloodlines go back to Roma
Antiqua.
The sensible route is to have your paternal & maternal DNA
anaylsed & enjoy that. If you do it through the National Geographic
genome project it is cheapest & then you can join a surname project
to find genetic relatives.
vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/<http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/>

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> > LVT: I have traced both mine and my wife's ancestory back from
the US
> > to France (Gaul) to Ancient Rome through the World Family Tree
via
> > Family Tree Maker software resources and other sources. I located
> > several Roman prefects in Gaul, as well as a lineage for both me
and
> > my wife to the ancient Iulii and Claudii. The world family tree
is
> > supposed to be "authenticated," but it may be all hogwash...I
don't
> know.
> >
> > I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned
down due
> > to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
> > never understood and personally felt was rather silly.
> >
> > Vale optime,
> > Triarius
>
> SAS: this is quite interesting as you may know that the French
> revolution burnt almost any record detained by the churches. Could
you
> please tell us how exactly you achived such a search in France
(Gaul)?
> Thank you very much.
>
> Optime valete,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

I apologize for using you guys as a last resort... but I must admit I
have found myself utterly beaten by history in this case. I have
searched, and searched, and searched some more! No where can I find a
record of where Porcia Catonis, wife of Marcus Junius Brutus, was
during Brutus' death at Philippi. I am incredibly curious about this
highly intriguing woman. Her suicide via carbon monoxide (even though
so many claim that she swallowed a live coal [much more poetic, yet
slightly less believable]) in response to her beloved husband's death,
the hypothesis that she was possibly the only woman present during the
fateful plot against Caesar, there is just so much to her character!
It truly astounds me that she is so poorly recognized by contemporary
scholars...

Maybe some of you gurus can help shed some light as to this ladies
whereabouts at the time of Philippi and Burtus' death. Also, if you
have any extra information about her I'd love to hear it!

Ave

Chuck

GOOD!
I have more Aeneid here. Neptune saves the trojans!

*- Tell, daring Winds, to Aeolus that I, Neptune, rule the sea, not him !!!*

However, it is on WAV. My MP3 Encoder (CD Ex) seems on ´strike´.
Have you some little encoder to email me? Like the Blade Encoder?

Vale,
LAF

2007/4/5, Maior <rory12001@...>:

>
> -Salve Sabine:
> Euge! wonderful!
> Maior
> producer "Vox Romana" podcast
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/
> >
> > SALVE HORTENSIA MAIOR!
> >
> > You will have one starting with April 15th.
> >
> > VALE BENE,
> > IVL SABINVS
> >
> > Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
> > --Salve Sabine;
> > you know I'd like a correspondant from Provincia Dacia!
> > Maior
> > >
> > > SALVETE!
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Maior" <rory12001@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >just in time for the Megalesia Vox Romana's latest podcast is
> > here.
> > >
> > > >by Cn. Salvius Astur, L. Arminius Faustus with correspondants
> > from
> > > Thules, Gallia, Brasilia, Hispania, America Austororientalis &
> > more: 3
> > > Continents of Romanitas! Marca Hortensia Maior, producer.>>>
> > >
> > > Congratulations and respect to the excellent podcast team.
> Indeed,
> > > this is a fine example of Romanitas around the world.
> > >
> > > VALETE,
> > > IVL SABINVS
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Every individual is the architect of his own fortune" - Appius
> Claudius
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a PS3 game guru.
> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
> Yahoo! Games.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete, quirites,

This email bellow was not intended to NR list, but to romanpodcast. Nothing
is secret, but you may strange by ´loose´ tone :)
Anyway, having a shareware encoder easy to handle, anyone can send me...

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus CSL

2007/4/10, Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@...>:

>
> GOOD!
> I have more Aeneid here. Neptune saves the trojans!
>
> *- Tell, daring Winds, to Aeolus that I, Neptune, rule the sea, not
> him !!!*
>
> However, it is on WAV. My MP3 Encoder (CD Ex) seems on ´strike´.
> Have you some little encoder to email me? Like the Blade Encoder?
>
> Vale,
> LAF
>
> >:
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> > L. Arminius Faustus
> >
> > "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
>
>

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Quirites,


Spring has come, autumn as well,
From all Earth we celebrate
The winter leaves, with summer too
One expects the heat to come back
Others pray for it go away
Two sides of the Orbe celebrates
And the sister of Iove we remember
Saturnia Ceres, holy Eleusina
Goddess of the farmers
Aventina dea of the Plebeains
On the happy days of your celebration
Look upon us with your good will
I know, oh peaceful dea,
My muse is more used to controversy
Than religious hymns
Make on this Cerealia, however,
An exception, and smile to my verses
Horatius would have much to teach
And Ovidius to laugh, but
Look with some good will,
If the verses have poor words
It is true that Aeneas had eaten
Your tables, with a no worst peel
Than these misplaced words
Orpheus had better rhymes
To move the will of your daughter
And your silent son in law
It is true, but Nero couldn´t sing
And being a good emperor,
It would be a bad exemple for a consul
Although showing some piety
Being a better poet than politician
And I am none of them, but
If on my complete incompetence,
These rag-tag words may move
At least a generous smile
from your nectar shinning lips
Oh Ceres, hear me in the name of the Republic
Grant wiseness to the Tribunes,
Make them the guardians they are called for
Keep the Aediles on the core of your heart
Look upon the sacred consules,
Make than worth of their offices
May the Senatores do not lose heart
And put their wiseness for a good use
Please bring Concordia by hand for us
May Nova Roma be her everlasting empire
A glorious but tiring task
Is being a Novorroman...
Each of us is a small Aeneas
On the path of his destiny
Fighting the Turnos of our own incapacity
To deal one with the other.
Yes, it is hard to pick so many
From so many corners of the world
In a same association, much to talk
Much to understand, much to do
Ars longa, vita brevis, said the poet
And when the novorromans lose heart
Discouraged by the natural struggles
Of human written comunication
You, oh magnifica dea,
Raise us, and strength our will
It is not our worth, I am sure
But only a supernatural influx
Which make us one, although many
It is a blessing of high origin
A thunder of Iove!
Without it, no money, no latin
No culture, no laws, no website,
No priesthoods, no magistratures
Could make this Republic
Alive... and keep it still alive...

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus CSL

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius

Salvete, magnifico Aedile,

For mother Ceres, we cannot deny any effort!

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus CSL


2007/4/5, C. Curius Saturninus <c.curius@...>:

>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> This is reminder for all chariot owners, visual artists and writers/
> scholars amongst us.
>
> Ludi Ceriales is approaching fast, and Chariot races, Art Contest
> (theme: Ceres and/or Cerialia) and Literary Contest (theme: Plebs)
> need your participation.
>
> See links to the ludi pages and deadline information from the Aediles
> portal, just go to the link to the Ceriales page:
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aediles_%28Nova_Roma%29
>
> Honour Ceres and participate!
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Curius Saturninus
>
> Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
> Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@... <c.curius%40academiathules.org>
> www.academiathules.org
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, Cerealia will have chariot races...
Another time for RUSSATA shows it is the best factio of NR...

I am,
I am Russata, I am...
I am going to beat, I am
And nobody will me seize me,
Neither the Praetorian Guard!

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius

If memory serves me correct, Porcia should have been in Rome at the time of Brutus' death. I believe that as Brutus' wife she was sharing her home with Brutus' mother Servilia, who was Caesar's longtime mistress and also Cato's half-sister. Servilia hated Cato with a passion and as such she probably took her hatred out on Cato's hapless daughter Porcia. That, and the horrible news of Brutus' death at Philippi most probably drove her to suicide. Whether or not it was via swallowing a live coal is another question, although I do not doubt the validity of that story due to Porcia's passionate nature (much like her father).

mrgrumpkin <mrgrumpkin@...> wrote: Salve!

I apologize for using you guys as a last resort... but I must admit I
have found myself utterly beaten by history in this case. I have
searched, and searched, and searched some more! No where can I find a
record of where Porcia Catonis, wife of Marcus Junius Brutus, was
during Brutus' death at Philippi. I am incredibly curious about this
highly intriguing woman. Her suicide via carbon monoxide (even though
so many claim that she swallowed a live coal [much more poetic, yet
slightly less believable]) in response to her beloved husband's death,
the hypothesis that she was possibly the only woman present during the
fateful plot against Caesar, there is just so much to her character!
It truly astounds me that she is so poorly recognized by contemporary
scholars...

Maybe some of you gurus can help shed some light as to this ladies
whereabouts at the time of Philippi and Burtus' death. Also, if you
have any extra information about her I'd love to hear it!

Ave

Chuck








---------------------------------
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's brilliant! Thank you Jorge!


Jorge Hernandez wrote:

>
> If memory serves me correct, Porcia should have been in Rome at the
> time of Brutus' death. I believe that as Brutus' wife she was sharing
> her home with Brutus' mother Servilia, who was Caesar's longtime
> mistress and also Cato's half-sister. Servilia hated Cato with a
> passion and as such she probably took her hatred out on Cato's hapless
> daughter Porcia. That, and the horrible news of Brutus' death at
> Philippi most probably drove her to suicide. Whether or not it was via
> swallowing a live coal is another question, although I do not doubt
> the validity of that story due to Porcia's passionate nature (much
> like her father).
>
> mrgrumpkin <mrgrumpkin@... <mailto:mrgrumpkin%40gmail.com>>
> wrote: Salve!
>
> I apologize for using you guys as a last resort... but I must admit I
> have found myself utterly beaten by history in this case. I have
> searched, and searched, and searched some more! No where can I find a
> record of where Porcia Catonis, wife of Marcus Junius Brutus, was
> during Brutus' death at Philippi. I am incredibly curious about this
> highly intriguing woman. Her suicide via carbon monoxide (even though
> so many claim that she swallowed a live coal [much more poetic, yet
> slightly less believable]) in response to her beloved husband's death,
> the hypothesis that she was possibly the only woman present during the
> fateful plot against Caesar, there is just so much to her character!
> It truly astounds me that she is so poorly recognized by contemporary
> scholars...
>
> Maybe some of you gurus can help shed some light as to this ladies
> whereabouts at the time of Philippi and Burtus' death. Also, if you
> have any extra information about her I'd love to hear it!
>
> Ave
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Salve Scipio,

I believe it was through the World Family Tree. It has been 3-4 years
since I actually did any research last. The software program I used
has several external links: ancestory.com, links to the Latter Day
Saints website (who I think does the World Family Tree), a large
amount of information came from the research discs with the program. A
lot of my information from English, France, Germany and Scandinavia
came through private family records, which were donated several years
to the Tennessee State Archives, but which my family kept copies. I
remember researching Gaul records through several online sites of
different unrelated families, which all seem to give me the same
information. It seems that once you can run a family line back far
enough, say to the 14th-15th Centuries, everything seems to be fairly
the same on every site you look at. The trick is getting back that
far. If you can tap into an ancestor like William the Conqueror, which
I did, it seems to be fairly clear for generations back. You just have
to be able to relate to someone in the upper European social order. If
you were not highly important, there will be relatively no, if any,
records. You just have to be willing to take the time to run ALL
ancestor lines back as far as you can...eventually, you will probably
hit the big line, and it is pretty clear all the way back. However,
once you get into the biblical lines and Norse lines, ancestors become
legend instead of actual people.

I spent several years running line back as far as I could then
reversing the lines, listing all descendants. I put this into the
software database and after many, many months, I started finding
duplicates:

Me
-My dad
--X
---X
----X
-----X
------X
-------X

...

----------------------------------------Lucus Iulius
---------------------------------------Lucius Iulius
--------------------------------------A
------------------------------------A1
-----------------------------------A2
----------------------------------A3
--------------------A14
-------------------------------------B
------------------------------------C
-----------------------------------D
------------------D13 marries A14, a Roman Prefect in Gaul, which I
verified through several different private and public geneaology
sites. If you do some deep research and only find the case exists for
a person one time, it probably is creative imagination on someone's part.

If you can research a line into the Aristocracy, it will 99% of the
time lead you into a Royal line which will lead you to other Royal
lines, which will further lead you back to other Aristocratic lines.

As far as French records, I do not remember having much trouble
finding records, however, I was not researching "common" people. My
research on commoners dies out in most cases before the French
Revolution. There is a period in American history, which I call the
"Wilderness Log Cabin Period," where parents had a baby, who later had
a baby, who later had a baby, who later had a baby, of which the birth
records were recorded for the first time. The late 1700s to the
mid-1800s are horrible to research, unless your family were city
dwellers in the Northeast. You come south and there just isn't much
information, because it was the wilderness.

Family research is the strangest thing I have ever experienced. I have
an Ancestor, who was a member of the House of Burgesses in the
Virginia Colony by nature of the fact that his father was a Member of
Parliament in England (per the HB records), is listed as serving
several terms and was even fined for inappropriate behavior while one
session was being conducted, was a prominent land owner, and traveled
to England on official government business several times.

THERE ARE NO RECORDS THAT THIS MAN EVER EXISTED IN OR CONDUCTED ANY
BUSINESS IN ENGLAND!

Let's face it in the late 1600s, Virginian population was not such
that HB members would have been able to fake an identity of this
magnitude. But, nevertheless, no one has been able to find out one
shred of information concerning this man. No ship logs, no birth
records, nothing, despite the fact that we have government records and
family documents that prove such.

There are a lot of good sites out there that have the same
information, whether it is factual or not, who knows. Hope this helps.

Vale optime,
Triarius





--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sextus Apollonius Scipio"
<apollonius_scipio@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> > LVT: I have traced both mine and my wife's ancestory back from the US
> > to France (Gaul) to Ancient Rome through the World Family Tree via
> > Family Tree Maker software resources and other sources. I located
> > several Roman prefects in Gaul, as well as a lineage for both me and
> > my wife to the ancient Iulii and Claudii. The world family tree is
> > supposed to be "authenticated," but it may be all hogwash...I don't
> know.
> >
> > I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned down due
> > to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
> > never understood and personally felt was rather silly.
> >
> > Vale optime,
> > Triarius
>
> SAS: this is quite interesting as you may know that the French
> revolution burnt almost any record detained by the churches. Could you
> please tell us how exactly you achived such a search in France (Gaul)?
> Thank you very much.
>
> Optime valete,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>

Salve Marinus,

I sent in my original application, and was told I would have to get
permission to join Gens Iulia from Gnaeus Iulius Caesar. After talking
to him, he cound not accept me under his domus due to the similarity
in age...there had to be an 18 year difference between us. He advised
me of the process and work with the censorial scribae, which
eventually debated and advised me that I could join as a separate
domus under Iulia. They sent me an email and I was given 24 hours to
respond, or be forced to become a Plebeian. The one day for about a
week that I could not log on to check my mail, was the day they sent
the email. I logged on a couple of hours past the deadline and
responded to the email. I was then advised I could not join as a
Patrician, due to missing the 24-hour deadline per the Senate
Consultum. I was advised that I could withdraw my application and
reapply in 6 months, if I really wanted to be a Patrician. So, I
moaned and bitched, then picked a Pleb gens to join. The rest is
history. I did not withdraw my application to the Iulii, it was
withdrawn for me. I merely submitted an alternate and acceptable one
to be allowed to join the group.

Vale,
Triarius



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@...>
wrote:

>
> Salve Luci Vitelli,
>
> L. Vitellius Triarius writes:
> [...]
> > I originally applied as a member of the Iulii, but was turned down due
> > to a Nova Roma "time limit requirement" upon application, which I
> > never understood and personally felt was rather silly.
>
> I just looked this up in the census database, and what I see

recorded there is

> that you originally applied for citizenship on 25 January 2005, and on 2
> February 2005 you decided to withdraw your application to join Iulia and
> instead asked to join Vitellia.
>
> Perhaps you can clarify what 'time limit requirement' was mentioned?
>
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>

Salve,

The 24 hour deadline thing sounds lame. If anything the time limit should've started when you *recieved* the mail, not when they sent it. Also, what's the deal with the age thing? Did he give a reason why it had to be an 18yr difference? That also sounds lame.

Why didn't you just pick a different Patrician gens?

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Vitellius Triarius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:28 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salve Marinus,

I sent in my original application, and was told I would have to get
permission to join Gens Iulia from Gnaeus Iulius Caesar. After talking
to him, he cound not accept me under his domus due to the similarity
in age...there had to be an 18 year difference between us. He advised
me of the process and work with the censorial scribae, which
eventually debated and advised me that I could join as a separate
domus under Iulia. They sent me an email and I was given 24 hours to
respond, or be forced to become a Plebeian. The one day for about a
week that I could not log on to check my mail, was the day they sent
the email. I logged on a couple of hours past the deadline and
responded to the email. I was then advised I could not join as a
Patrician, due to missing the 24-hour deadline per the Senate
Consultum. I was advised that I could withdraw my application and
reapply in 6 months, if I really wanted to be a Patrician. So, I
moaned and bitched, then picked a Pleb gens to join. The rest is
history. I did not withdraw my application to the Iulii, it was
withdrawn for me. I merely submitted an alternate and acceptable one
to be allowed to join the group.

Vale,
Triarius


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Triarius sends his servii, escorted by his personal guard, with a
gift to the Consul in honor of the upcoming Ludi Circenses...a golden
caske emblazoned with a highly detailed motif of Ceres...containing
blue paint ;)]



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Arminius Faustus"
<lafaustus@...> wrote:

>
> So, Cerealia will have chariot races...
> Another time for RUSSATA shows it is the best factio of NR...
>
> I am,
> I am Russata, I am...
> I am going to beat, I am
> And nobody will me seize me,
> Neither the Praetorian Guard!
>
> --
> Valete bene in pacem deorum,
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> "Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius
>

--Salve;
no, that's straight from Colleen McCullogh. I too have an interest
as Hortensia, the wonderful oratrix, whose gens I revived, was
Brutus's step-mother.
Hortensia, the daughter of famed Hortensius, married Servilius
Caepio who later adopted Brutus. So she was indeed his step-mother.
Where was she when this all was happening? I don't know either, must
do more research.
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> That's brilliant! Thank you Jorge!
>
>
> Jorge Hernandez wrote:
> >
> > If memory serves me correct, Porcia should have been in Rome at

the

> > time of Brutus' death. I believe that as Brutus' wife she was

sharing

> > her home with Brutus' mother Servilia, who was Caesar's longtime
> > mistress and also Cato's half-sister. Servilia hated Cato with a
> > passion and as such she probably took her hatred out on Cato's

hapless

> > daughter Porcia. That, and the horrible news of Brutus' death at
> > Philippi most probably drove her to suicide. Whether or not it

was via

> > swallowing a live coal is another question, although I do not

doubt

> > the validity of that story due to Porcia's passionate nature

(much

> > like her father).
> >
> > mrgrumpkin <mrgrumpkin@... <mailto:mrgrumpkin%40gmail.com>>
> > wrote: Salve!
> >
> > I apologize for using you guys as a last resort... but I must

admit I

> > have found myself utterly beaten by history in this case. I have
> > searched, and searched, and searched some more! No where can I

find a

> > record of where Porcia Catonis, wife of Marcus Junius Brutus, was
> > during Brutus' death at Philippi. I am incredibly curious about

this

> > highly intriguing woman. Her suicide via carbon monoxide (even

though

> > so many claim that she swallowed a live coal [much more poetic,

yet

> > slightly less believable]) in response to her beloved husband's

death,

> > the hypothesis that she was possibly the only woman present

during the

> > fateful plot against Caesar, there is just so much to her

character!

> > It truly astounds me that she is so poorly recognized by

contemporary

> > scholars...
> >
> > Maybe some of you gurus can help shed some light as to this

ladies

> > whereabouts at the time of Philippi and Burtus' death. Also, if

you

> > have any extra information about her I'd love to hear it!
> >
> > Ave
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>

L. Vitellius Annia Minucia S.P.D.

> The 24 hour deadline thing sounds lame.

LVT: Yeah, that's what I thought, too.

> If anything the time limit should've started when you *recieved* the
> mail, not when they sent it.

LVT: I argued that point as well, to no end.

> Also, what's the deal with the age thing? Did he give a reason why
> it had to be an 18yr difference? That also sounds lame.

LVT: Sui Iuris requirement, I believe they told me.

> Why didn't you just pick a different Patrician gens?

LVT: I didn't want to wait six months per the Censor's office
instructions. I had no choice in the matter. Pick Plebeian or wait six
months and try it again...guess they were short on Plebs at the time.

It's okay, really, I've always liked General Lucius Vitellius, after
all, he was a Pleb and Consul with Tiberius Claudius. Plus, he fired
Pontius Pilate for being a jerk to the Jews.

Vale optime,
Triarius

Salvete omnes,

This is reminder for all chariot owners, visual artists and writers/
scholars amongst us.

Ludi Ceriales is approaching fast, and Chariot races, Art Contest
(theme: Ceres and/or Cerialia) and Literary Contest (theme: Plebs)
need your participation.

See links to the ludi pages and deadline information from the Aediles
portal, just go to the link to the Ceriales page:
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Aediles_%28Nova_Roma%29

Honour Ceres and participate!

Valete,

C. Curius Saturninus

Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

L. Vitellius Annia Minucia et al S.P.D.


Lex Apula Popillia de nominibus approbationibusque amended parts of
the Lex Labiena de gentibus, concerning this whole matter.
Unfortuantely, the Tabularium only lists the amendments to the Lex,
and not the original Lex as is was passed.

II.B.2.b. Approval authority to acceptance in a Gens

II.B.2.b.i. Any prospective citizen may choose the Gens of his
choice providing he / she doesn't seek to belong to an already
existing Domus. In the latter case approval authority falls within the
rights and duties of the Pater / Materfamilias as stated in II.B.1.b.

II.B.2.b.ii. The Censores will hold the ultimate authority to
approve or reject prospective citizens seeking admission in a Gens but
not in a recognised Familia.



Vale optime,
Triarius

In a message dated 4/10/2007 4:13:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mrgrumpkin@... writes:

I am incredibly curious about this
highly intriguing woman. Her suicide via carbon monoxide (even though
so many claim that she swallowed a live coal [much more poetic, yet
slightly less believable]) in response to her beloved husband's death,
the hypothesis that she was possibly the only woman present during the
fateful plot against Caesar, there is just so much to her character!

Appianus has her in Rome. Plutarch in the Life of M. Brutus doesn't say
where she was, but we assume Rome, since neither author says anything about her
going on campaign or interacting with her husband or her brother Cato, while on
the campaign.

If you read the actual Greek from the Leob there is no live burning involved.
She swallowed fuel from the brazier that slaves were bringing in to the
villa. The family was on suicide watch, and this was the only way she could
ingest something poisonous. Had the family known what the source was, they could
have given her an antidote but she died before anybody knew. She probably
ordered the slaves to silence.
It's in the English translation of Plutarch that says the coal was live, yet
the Dresden translation in German does not. Brutus in a letter claims she was
already dying of some disease. Valerius Maximus made up the burning
exaggeration Plutarch belived, and if the Brutus letter that was quoted is authentic,
disease is the real reason she died.

My thoughts. She poisoned herself, probably because she was dying of
consumption or another wasting disease, and with Brutus gone there was no reason to
linger.

Q. Fabius Maximus



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete gurus of historical research S.P.D.

Here is one of my family's lines that I have researched to William the
Conqueror (my 34th Great-Grandfather...it's pretty clear from here on
down). Yes, it DOES include mythology.

Valid or Invalid? I welcome any critique from our historians, as any
additions, deletions, or corrections will improve the quality of my
research.

References are from various sources, from official British Government
sites to private family sites:


Chronos (Primordial GOD, aka Time)
Chaos (Primordial GOD, aka Air)
Erebus (Primordial GOD, aka Darkness)
Aether (Primordial GOD, aka Light, the Upper Sky)
Uranus (1st Ruler GOD of the Universe)
Cronos (Kronos) the TITAN
Iuppiter Optimas Maximus
Mars (GOD of War)
Romulus (1st King) of ROME
Jullus of ROME
Numerius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullus
Vopiscus Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius JULIUS Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius (Libo) Iullus
Lucius Julius Caesar <OR> Numerius JULIUS Caesar
Lucius Julius Caesar (? - 166 BC)
Sextus Julius Caesar (? - 147 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar
Gaius Julius (II) Caesar (124? BC - 84? BC Pisa)
Gaius Julius Caesar (Praetor) of ROME (? - 91 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar (1st EMPEROR) of ROME
Marcus Julius Antonius Gnaeus Caesar
Gaius Calpernius Piso (Born: ? - Died: abt. 65)
Arrius Antoninus Calpernius Piso Born: abt. 37 Died: abt. 119
Pompeia Plotina Domitia Lucilla
Domitia Lucilla Trajanus
Marcus Aurelius Antonius (EMPEROR) of ROME
Crispus Commodus (EMPEROR) of ROME
Claudia Crispina
Flavius Valerius Constantius I `Chlorus' of ROME
Flavius Valerius Constantin
Gratian, Tribune of ROMAN EMPIRE
Flavius I Valentinianus; EMPEROR of the WEST
Flavia Galla Valentiniana
Aelia Galla Placidia
Athanlidis (Hrothtildis) the VISIGOTH
Gunderic (King) of BURGUNDY
Chilperic II (Chilperich) (King) of BURGUNDY
Clothilde (Saint; Princess) of BURGUNDY
Lothaire I (King) of SOISSONS
Chilperic I of SOISSONS (King of the FRANKS; 1st King of NEUSTRIA)
Clotaire (Clothaire Chlothar) II
Dagobert I (11th King) of AUSTRASIA
Sigisbert II (12th King) of AUSTRASIA
Dagobert II (King) of AUSTRASIA; King of FRANKS; (Saint)
Clodius (I; IV; Duke) of EAST FRANKS (324? - 389)
Marcomir I (VI; V; Duke) of EAST FRANKS
Chlodwig de COLOGNE (405? - 450?)
Amalberge of the FRANKS
Sigebert (Siegbert) (I; King) of COLOGNE
Cloderic `the Parricide' (King) of COLOGNE
Munderic of VITRY-EN-PERTHOIS
Mummolin des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Baudgise II (Duke) of AQUITAINE
Arnold (Saint Arnulf) des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Pepin (Pippin) II `the Fat' of HERSTAL
Charles `the Hammer' MARTEL (Duke) of FRANKS
Pepin III (8th King) of All FRANKS (715? - 768)
Charlemagne (King) of the FRANKS
Pepin (I; IV; King) of ITALY
Aeda (Alda Attala) of the FRANKS
Oda BILLUNG of THURINGIA
Otto (Otho) (Count/Duke) of SAXONY
Conan I `the Crooked' (Count/Duke) of BRITTANY
William `the Conqueror' (Duke) of NORMANDY


Vale optime,
Triarius

Salvete gurus of historical research S.P.D.

Here is one of my family's lines that I have researched to William the
Conqueror (my 34th Great-Grandfather...it's pretty clear from here on
down). Yes, it DOES include mythology.

Valid or Invalid? I welcome any critique from our historians, as any
additions, deletions, or corrections will improve the quality of my
research.

References are from various sources, from official British Government
sites to private family sites:


Chronos (Primordial GOD, aka Time)
Chaos (Primordial GOD, aka Air)
Erebus (Primordial GOD, aka Darkness)
Aether (Primordial GOD, aka Light, the Upper Sky)
Uranus (1st Ruler GOD of the Universe)
Cronos (Kronos) the TITAN
Iuppiter Optimas Maximus
Mars (GOD of War)
Romulus (1st King) of ROME
Jullus of ROME
Numerius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullus
Vopiscus Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius JULIUS Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius (Libo) Iullus
Lucius Julius Caesar <OR> Numerius JULIUS Caesar
Lucius Julius Caesar (? - 166 BC)
Sextus Julius Caesar (? - 147 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar
Gaius Julius (II) Caesar (124? BC - 84? BC Pisa)
Gaius Julius Caesar (Praetor) of ROME (? - 91 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar (1st EMPEROR) of ROME
Marcus Julius Antonius Gnaeus Caesar
Gaius Calpernius Piso (Born: ? - Died: abt. 65)
Arrius Antoninus Calpernius Piso Born: abt. 37 Died: abt. 119
Pompeia Plotina Domitia Lucilla
Domitia Lucilla Trajanus
Marcus Aurelius Antonius (EMPEROR) of ROME
Crispus Commodus (EMPEROR) of ROME
Claudia Crispina
Flavius Valerius Constantius I `Chlorus' of ROME
Flavius Valerius Constantin
Gratian, Tribune of ROMAN EMPIRE
Flavius I Valentinianus; EMPEROR of the WEST
Flavia Galla Valentiniana
Aelia Galla Placidia
Athanlidis (Hrothtildis) the VISIGOTH
Gunderic (King) of BURGUNDY
Chilperic II (Chilperich) (King) of BURGUNDY
Clothilde (Saint; Princess) of BURGUNDY
Lothaire I (King) of SOISSONS
Chilperic I of SOISSONS (King of the FRANKS; 1st King of NEUSTRIA)
Clotaire (Clothaire Chlothar) II
Dagobert I (11th King) of AUSTRASIA
Sigisbert II (12th King) of AUSTRASIA
Dagobert II (King) of AUSTRASIA; King of FRANKS; (Saint)
Clodius (I; IV; Duke) of EAST FRANKS (324? - 389)
Marcomir I (VI; V; Duke) of EAST FRANKS
Chlodwig de COLOGNE (405? - 450?)
Amalberge of the FRANKS
Sigebert (Siegbert) (I; King) of COLOGNE
Cloderic `the Parricide' (King) of COLOGNE
Munderic of VITRY-EN-PERTHOIS
Mummolin des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Baudgise II (Duke) of AQUITAINE
Arnold (Saint Arnulf) des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Pepin (Pippin) II `the Fat' of HERSTAL
Charles `the Hammer' MARTEL (Duke) of FRANKS
Pepin III (8th King) of All FRANKS (715? - 768)
Charlemagne (King) of the FRANKS
Pepin (I; IV; King) of ITALY
Aeda (Alda Attala) of the FRANKS
Oda BILLUNG of THURINGIA
Otto (Otho) (Count/Duke) of SAXONY
Conan I `the Crooked' (Count/Duke) of BRITTANY
William `the Conqueror' (Duke) of NORMANDY


Vale optime,
Triarius

Salvete gurus of historical research S.P.D.

Again, here is an expanded version of the previous posted lineage.

This is the "Alleged" maternal lineage of Jullus (Julus) of ROME,
through his mother, Rhea Silvia - Princess of Alba Longa:

Apsu, Ocean of Sweet Water
Lahmu, the Primordial GOD
Anshar, the Primordial GOD
Anu, God of the Sky
Enlil, God of Wind
El, Supreme God of Canaan
prob. Elohim, God of Israel
Adam, the First Man
Seth (3874 BC - 2962 BC)
Enosh (Henos Enos) (3769 BC - 2864 BC)
Cainan (Keinan Kenan)
Mahalalel (Malaleel Mahalaleel Mlahel)
Jared (3544 BC - 2582 BC)
Enoch (Henoch) (3382 BC - 3017 BC)
Methusaleh (Mathusale) (3317 BC - 2348 BC)
Lamech
Noah (Nuh Noe) (2948? BC - 1998 BC)
Shem (Sceaf Sam Sem) (2454? BC - 1842 BC)
Arphaxad (King) of ARRAPACHTIS (2342? BC - 1904 BC)
Cainain the SEMITE
Shelah (Sale Salah) of CHALDEA
Eber (Heber 'Aybar) ibn SHELAH
Pelag (Phaleg Falikh Peleg) (poss. King of BABYLON)
Reu (Ragau Ra'u) (King?) of LAGASH
Serug (Sorogh Sargun Sarug Saragh Saruch)
Nahor (Nachor Nahur) ben SERUG
Terah (Thare Terih) (King?) of AGADE
Abraham (Avraham Ibrahim) of GENESIS
Isaac ibn ABRAHAM (1922 BC - 1742 BC)
Jacob ibn ISAAC (King of GOSHEN)
Judah (Judas Juda) ibn JACOB
Zerah (Zehrah Zarah Zare) ibn JUDAH
Dardanus (Dara) (King) of ACADIA
Erichthonius (King) of ACADIA (? - 1386? BC)
Tros (Trois) of ACADIA (1337? BC - 1330? BC)
Assaracus (Ascaoracus) the DARDANIAN
Capys (Capis Capps) the DARDANIAN
Anchises the DARDANIAN
Aeneas `the Dardanian' (King) of LATIUM
Silvius (2nd King) of ALBA LONGA
Aeneas (3rd King) of ALBA LONGA
Latinus Silvius of ALBA LONGA
Alba (5th King) of ALBA LONGA
Capetus (6th King) of ALBA LONGA
Capys (7th King) of ALBA LONGA
Capetus (II; 8th King) of ALBA LONGA
Tiberinus Silvius (9th King) of ALBA LONGA
Agrippa (10th King) of ALBA LONGA
Romulus Silvius of ALBA LONGA
Allodius (11th King) of ALBA LONGA
Aventinus (12th King) of ALBA LONGA
Procas (13th King) of ALBA LONGA
Numitor (15th King) of ALBA LONGA
Rhea Silvia (Princess) of ALBA LONGA
Jullus (Julus) of ROME
Numerius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullus
Vopiscus Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius (Libo) Iullus
Lucius Julius Caesar <OR> Numerius JULIUS Caesar
Lucius Julius Caesar (? - 166 BC)
Sextus Julius Caesar (? - 147 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar
Gaius Julius (II) Caesar (124? BC - 84? BC Pisa)
Gaius Julius Caesar (Praetor) of ROME (? - 91 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar (1st EMPEROR) of ROME
Marcus Julius Antonius Gneius Caesar
Gaius Calpernius Piso (Born: ? - Died: abt. 65)
Arrius Antoninus Calpernius Piso (Born: abt. 37 Died: abt. 119)
Pompeia Plotina Domitia Lucilla
Domitia Lucilla Trajanus
Marcus Aurelius Antonius (EMPEROR) of ROME
Crispus Commodus (EMPEROR) of ROME
Claudia Crispina
Flavius Valerius Constantius I `Chlorus' of ROME
Flavius Valerius Constantin
Gratian, Tribune of ROMAN EMPIRE
Flavius I Valentinianus; EMPEROR of the WEST
Flavia Galla Valentiniana
Aelia Galla Placidia
Athanlidis (Hrothtildis) the VISIGOTH
Gunderic (King) of BURGUNDY
Chilperic II (Chilperich) (King) of BURGUNDY
Clothilde (Saint; Princess) of BURGUNDY
Lothaire I (King) of SOISSONS
Chilperic I of SOISSONS (King of the FRANKS; 1st King of NEUSTRIA)
Clotaire (Clothaire Chlothar) II (3rd King) of All FRANKS (10th King
of AUSTRASIA; 2nd King of NEUSTRIA; King of Burgundy)
Dagobert I (11th King) of AUSTRASIA (Greatest of MEROVINGIANS; 3rd
King of NEUSTRIA; 4th King of All FRANKS; King of Burgundy)
Sigisbert II (12th King) of AUSTRASIA
Dagobert II (King) of AUSTRASIA; King of FRANKS; (Saint)
Clodius (I; IV; Duke) of EAST FRANKS (324? - 389)
Marcomir I (VI; V; Duke) of EAST FRANKS
Chlodwig de COLOGNE (405? - 450?)
Amalberge of the FRANKS
Sigebert (Siegbert) (I; King) of COLOGNE
Cloderic `the Parricide' (King) of COLOGNE
Munderic of VITRY-EN-PERTHOIS
Mummolin des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Baudgise II (Duke) of AQUITAINE
Arnold (Saint Arnulf) des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Pepin (Pippin) II `the Fat' of HERSTAL
Charles `the Hammer' MARTEL (Duke) of FRANKS
Pepin III (8th King) of All FRANKS (715? - 768)
Charlemagne (King) of the FRANKS
Pepin (I; IV; King) of ITALY
Aeda (Alda Attala) of the FRANKS
Oda BILLUNG of THURINGIA
Otto (Otho) (Count/Duke) of SAXONY
Conan I `the Crooked' (Count/Duke) of BRITTANY
William `the Conqueror' (Duke) of NORMANDY


Vale optime,
Triarius


P.S. Another good page of reference links to primarily private sites,
which I have used, is:

http://fabpedigree.com/credits.htm

Salvete Omnes,

for our new citizens (and remind the others!!), you will find on the
link down below, a blog, run by Gallia and dedicated to the latest news
concerning the Roman heritage as a whole. This blog is updated
regurlarly, so do not hesitate to visit often!!
Enjoy.

http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/

Optime valete,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem III Idus Aprilis; haec dies nefastus est.

"Greeting the mother (who was called Metanira)
The goddess deigned to join her lips to the child's.
His pallor fled, his body suddenly seemed healthier:
Such power flowed out of the goddess' mouth.
There was joy in the house, in the father, mother
And daughter: those three were the whole house.
They soon set out a meal, curds in whey,
Apples, and golden honey on the comb.
Kind Ceres abstained, and gave to the boy
Poppy seeds in warm milk to make him sleep.
It was midnight: silent in peaceful slumber,
The goddess took Triptolemus on her lap,
Caressed him with her hand three times, and spoke
Three spells, not to be sounded by mortal tongue,
And she covered the boy's body with live embers
On the hearth, so the fire would purge his mortal burden.
His good, fond, foolish mother, waking from sleep,
Crying: `What are you doing?' snatched him from the coals,
To her the goddess said: `Though sinless, you've sinned:
My gift's been thwarted by a mother's fear.
He will still be mortal, but first to plough,
And sow, and reap a harvest from the soil.'" - Ovid, Fasti IV

"Are we to believe, then, that vines, not previously existing,
appeared at a certain stage; and olives, likewise, and the gifts of
Demeter [Ceres] and Core [Persephone]? And that some Triptolemus was
the minister of such fruits?" - Plato, Laws 782b

"For Triptolemos, the elder of Metaniera's sons, Demeter prepared a
chariot of winged Drakones, and she gave him wheat, which he scattered
all over the populated earth as he was carried along through the sky.
Panyasis says that Triptolemos was the son of Eleusis, which is why
Demeter came to him; but Pherekydes says that he was born of Okeanos
and Gaia." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.32

"When Ceres was hunting for her daughter, she came to King Eleusinus,
whose wife Cothonea had borne the boy Triptolemus...On Triptolemus she
conferred everlasting honour, for she gave him her chariot yoked with
Serpents to spread the cultivation of grain. Riding in it he sowed
grain throughout the earth. When he returned, Celeus bade him be
killed for his benefactions, but when this was known, by Ceres' order
he gave the kingdom to Triptolemus, who called it Eleusis from his
father's name. He also established sacred rites in honour of Ceres,
which hare called in Greek Thesmophoria." - Hyginus, Fabulae 147

"[Ceres] taught her foster-son Triptolemus to sow grain. When he had
sown it, and a pig rooted up what he had planted, he seized the pig,
took it to the altar of Ceres, and putting grain on its head,
sacrificed it to Ceres. From this cam the custom of putting salted
meal on the victim." - Hyginus, Fabulae 277

Today is held in ghonor of Triptolemus. According to the Homeric Hymn
to Demeter (anonymous text of the 7th century B.C.) Triptolemos was
one of the men who had great power and honor in Eleusis and was one of
the chiefs among the people, protecting the city by their wisdom and
true judgements. The Hymn also gives us the information that
Triptolemos together with Diocles, Eumolpos, Keleus and Polyxeinus
learned the mysteries and rites of the goddess Demeter.

The later tradition, spread out by the Athenians, connected
Triptolemos with the first civilization in Eleusis, cultivating the
grain, a gift of Demeter. Triptolemos is described as a son of Keleus,
the Eleusinian king and his wife Metaneira, who welcomed in their
palace the goddess Demeter, when she was mourning for her daughter
Kore. Demeter equited for their kindness, so she gave to Triptolemos
the ears of a corn and she taught him to cultivate the fields.
Triptolemos became a teacher of agriculture over the whole world. He
was bringing this knowledge on his winged chariot from one place to
the other, while Demeter and Persephone took care of him during this
mission. In the later myths Triptolemos became after his death the
judge in the underworld.

The representation of Triptolemos became very popular and he was
depicted on many Greek vases and inside reliefs, mainly during the
Classical period. The oldest image of Triptolemos (dated from the 6th
century B.C.) exists on the black-figured amphora from Les Musées
Royaux in Brussels. Triptolemos is sitting on his wheeled throne,
keeping the ears of a corn, while one of his companions is following
him and an other man is thanking him for his mission.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Apollodorus, Playto, Hyginus, Triptolemus (http://www.pantheon
org/articles/t/triptolemus.html)

Salve Triari,

"L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> writes:

> Salve Marinus,
>
> I sent in my original application, and was told I would have to get
> permission to join Gens Iulia from Gnaeus Iulius Caesar. After talking
> to him, he cound not accept me under his domus due to the similarity
> in age...there had to be an 18 year difference between us. He advised
> me of the process and work with the censorial scribae, which
> eventually debated and advised me that I could join as a separate
> domus under Iulia.

This all seems correct to me. (I'm not questioning the correctness of what
you relate, what I mean is correctness of procedure.)

> They sent me an email and I was given 24 hours to
> respond, or be forced to become a Plebeian.

This strikes me as really bizarre. Later today as time permits I will hunt
through all the correspondence records of former censor Quintilianus and his
censorial cohort to see if the messages to you were copied there as they
should have been. I have no idea where this 24 hour limit came from. I had
only just assumed office as censor at that time, and I wouldn't take over the
management of new citizen applications until June of that year, so I have to
rely on the records that were left. But it strikes me as somewhat out of
line.

I'll get back to you once I've dug through the old mailing list records.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

[...]

> Also, what's the deal with the age thing? Did he give a reason why it had
> to be an 18yr difference?

It's the law. See the Lex Equitia Familiaris. Nobody can adopt another
citizen who is not at least 18 years younger.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve Marinus,

I worked with Marca Martiana Gangalia Marcella on the application
process. I don't know if she still has any correspondence archived or not.

Vale optime,
Triarius

Salve Triari,

Yes, there's lots of her correspondence in the mail archive.

"L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> writes:

> Salve Marinus,
>
> I worked with Marca Martiana Gangalia Marcella on the application
> process. I don't know if she still has any correspondence archived or not.
>
> Vale optime,
> Triarius

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve Triari,

"L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> writes:

Without looking too closely at the overall line of descent you've provided, I
have one immediate concern. This part:

[...]

> Mars (GOD of War)
> Romulus (1st King) of ROME
> Jullus of ROME
> Numerius Julius Iullii (Julus)
> Lucius Julius Iullii (Julus)
> Caius Julius Iullii
> Caius Julius Iullii
> Caius Julius Iullii
> Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
> Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
> Caius Julius Iullus
> Vopiscus Julius Iullus
> Lucius Julius Iullus
> Lucius JULIUS Iullus
> Lucius Julius Iullus
> Lucius Julius (Libo) Iullus
> Lucius Julius Caesar <OR> Numerius JULIUS Caesar
> Lucius Julius Caesar (? - 166 BC)
> Sextus Julius Caesar (? - 147 BC)
> Gaius Julius Caesar
> Gaius Julius (II) Caesar (124? BC - 84? BC Pisa)
> Gaius Julius Caesar (Praetor) of ROME (? - 91 BC)
> Gaius Julius Caesar (1st EMPEROR) of ROME

As listed, it's only 22 generations. But according to Caesar the Dictator,
Mars and Venus were his 41st great-grandparents, not 19th.

So while I applaud the tenacity of your research, I suspect you've latched
onto something which will not hold up to close inspection.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve Triari,

"L. Vitellius Triarius" <lucius_vitellius_triarius@...> writes:

Without looking too closely at the overall line of descent you've provided, I
have one immediate concern. This part:

[...]

> Mars (GOD of War)
> Romulus (1st King) of ROME
> Jullus of ROME
> Numerius Julius Iullii (Julus)
> Lucius Julius Iullii (Julus)
> Caius Julius Iullii
> Caius Julius Iullii
> Caius Julius Iullii
> Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
> Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
> Caius Julius Iullus
> Vopiscus Julius Iullus
> Lucius Julius Iullus
> Lucius JULIUS Iullus
> Lucius Julius Iullus
> Lucius Julius (Libo) Iullus
> Lucius Julius Caesar <OR> Numerius JULIUS Caesar
> Lucius Julius Caesar (? - 166 BC)
> Sextus Julius Caesar (? - 147 BC)
> Gaius Julius Caesar
> Gaius Julius (II) Caesar (124? BC - 84? BC Pisa)
> Gaius Julius Caesar (Praetor) of ROME (? - 91 BC)
> Gaius Julius Caesar (1st EMPEROR) of ROME

As listed, it's only 22 generations. But according to Caesar the Dictator,
Mars and Venus were his 41st great-grandparents, not 19th.

So while I applaud the tenacity of your research, I suspect you've latched
onto something which will not hold up to close inspection.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve,

What's the purpose of that? Who came up with the number?

So, if I were a materfamilias, I could only adopt 9 yr old children in to my gens? LAME. I guess all the elderly citizens can't join any gens, they have to start their own? Doesn't seem fair.


Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

[...]
> Also, what's the deal with the age thing? Did he give a reason why it had
> to be an 18yr difference?

It's the law. See the Lex Equitia Familiaris. Nobody can adopt another
citizen who is not at least 18 years younger.

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Censor Anniae Minuciae Marcellae salutem dicit

As the only adult in Nova Roma who has been formally adopted into a
Patrician Gens from a Plebeian Gens I can attest that as someone who is in
his mid-30s I was adopted by a Patrician in his 50s (Caeso Fabius Buteo
Quintilianus), therefore, becoming a Patrician. It would not make sense for
me to be adopted by (lets say) a 20 year old Patrician. While there is much
about the old gens system that I miss, the new reforms are more logical in
the sense that it doesn't make sense for a 36 year old (for example) to be
adopted by (lets say) an 18 year old. But an 18 year difference could very
easily be the age difference between a parent and biological offspring and
thus a suitable age difference between a Pater (or Mater) Familias and the
adopted. I hope I made sense when I explained this. I just woke up :)

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 4/11/07, Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> What's the purpose of that? Who came up with the number?
>
> So, if I were a materfamilias, I could only adopt 9 yr old children in to
> my gens? LAME. I guess all the elderly citizens can't join any gens, they
> have to start their own? Doesn't seem fair.
>
> Vale,
>
> Annia Minucia Marcella
> http://minucia.ciarin.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?
>
> Salve Marcella,
>
> Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@... <annia%40ciarin.com>> writes:
>
> [...]
> > Also, what's the deal with the age thing? Did he give a reason why it
> had
> > to be an 18yr difference?
>
> It's the law. See the Lex Equitia Familiaris. Nobody can adopt another
> citizen who is not at least 18 years younger.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN.EQVIT.MARINVS
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

[about the requirement for adoptive parents to be at least 18 years older than
their adoptive children]

> What's the purpose of that? Who came up with the number?

I did. It prevents pseudo-families where the 'parent' is younger than the
'children.'

> So, if I were a materfamilias, I could only adopt 9 yr old children in to
> my gens?

You can't adopt anybody into your gens. Neither can anybody else. You could
adopt into your *familia* if you chose, but only people who are at least 18
years younger than you.

> LAME. I guess all the elderly citizens can't join any gens, they
> have to start their own? Doesn't seem fair.

Most of Nova Roma's gentes are open, but people do generally have to establish
their own familia when they join. Why does that seem unfair to you?

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

M. Hortensia Sex. Apollonio spd;
many thank, it's in English, which suprised me. And it is
excellent. I love the latest news & I know other cives do here as
well. My regards to the Galli for such a great endeavor!
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
> for our new citizens (and remind the others!!), you will find on the
> link down below, a blog, run by Gallia and dedicated to the latest

news

> concerning the Roman heritage as a whole. This blog is updated
> regurlarly, so do not hesitate to visit often!!
> Enjoy.
>
> http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/
>
> Optime valete,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>

Salve,

If you just wanted the "parent" to be older, then just say he has to be older. why 18yrs older?

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

[about the requirement for adoptive parents to be at least 18 years older than
their adoptive children]

> What's the purpose of that? Who came up with the number?

I did. It prevents pseudo-families where the 'parent' is younger than the
'children.'

> So, if I were a materfamilias, I could only adopt 9 yr old children in to
> my gens?

You can't adopt anybody into your gens. Neither can anybody else. You could
adopt into your *familia* if you chose, but only people who are at least 18
years younger than you.

> LAME. I guess all the elderly citizens can't join any gens, they
> have to start their own? Doesn't seem fair.

Most of Nova Roma's gentes are open, but people do generally have to establish
their own familia when they join. Why does that seem unfair to you?

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

> If you just wanted the "parent" to be older, then just say he has to be
> older. why 18yrs older?

Because that's a reasonable limit for a parental age difference. There's
absolutely nothing which says a Nova Roman citizen must have a Nova Roman
parent. It doesn't convey any sort of advantage. So there's no need for any
such artificiality. If a person truly wants to enter into a familial
relationship, we have laws that allow it. But otherwise adult citizens are
expected to be the heads of their own families.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Does anyone else find all this discussion of direct genealogical connection to Rome a little convoluted? If Caracalla made every free person within the Empire a Roman citizen then virtually every person whose family or ancestral group were within the borders is a Roman by direct descent.I know my family is of Welsh, Irish, Scottish, English, and German extraction back to about 1588 when the records run dry. I can presume that my Welsh ancestors were probably Roman at one time but the rest of the familiy probably came from outside the Empire. Even my Scottish ancestors, the Laumonts, were descended of Norsemen.
Ultimately, we should be proud of all of our ancestral families because they are the reason why we now exist regardless of Roman origins.

Patrick "Fl. Galerius Aurelianus"-(Owen-Chatham-Sheffield-Brakefield-Brown-Landers-Laumont-Wood-Scribner)


-----Original Message-----
From: lucius_vitellius_triarius@...
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 3:44 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman Ancestory


Salvete gurus of historical research S.P.D.

Here is one of my family's lines that I have researched to William the
Conqueror (my 34th Great-Grandfather...it's pretty clear from here on
down). Yes, it DOES include mythology.

Valid or Invalid? I welcome any critique from our historians, as any
additions, deletions, or corrections will improve the quality of my
research.

References are from various sources, from official British Government
sites to private family sites:

Chronos (Primordial GOD, aka Time)
Chaos (Primordial GOD, aka Air)
Erebus (Primordial GOD, aka Darkness)
Aether (Primordial GOD, aka Light, the Upper Sky)
Uranus (1st Ruler GOD of the Universe)
Cronos (Kronos) the TITAN
Iuppiter Optimas Maximus
Mars (GOD of War)
Romulus (1st King) of ROME
Jullus of ROME
Numerius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullii (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Caius Julius Iullii
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Lucius Julius Iullus (Julus)
Caius Julius Iullus
Vopiscus Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius JULIUS Iullus
Lucius Julius Iullus
Lucius Julius (Libo) Iullus
Lucius Julius Caesar <OR> Numerius JULIUS Caesar
Lucius Julius Caesar (? - 166 BC)
Sextus Julius Caesar (? - 147 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar
Gaius Julius (II) Caesar (124? BC - 84? BC Pisa)
Gaius Julius Caesar (Praetor) of ROME (? - 91 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar (1st EMPEROR) of ROME
Marcus Julius Antonius Gnaeus Caesar
Gaius Calpernius Piso (Born: ? - Died: abt. 65)
Arrius Antoninus Calpernius Piso Born: abt. 37 Died: abt. 119
Pompeia Plotina Domitia Lucilla
Domitia Lucilla Trajanus
Marcus Aurelius Antonius (EMPEROR) of ROME
Crispus Commodus (EMPEROR) of ROME
Claudia Crispina
Flavius Valerius Constantius I `Chlorus' of ROME
Flavius Valerius Constantin
Gratian, Tribune of ROMAN EMPIRE
Flavius I Valentinianus; EMPEROR of the WEST
Flavia Galla Valentiniana
Aelia Galla Placidia
Athanlidis (Hrothtildis) the VISIGOTH
Gunderic (King) of BURGUNDY
Chilperic II (Chilperich) (King) of BURGUNDY
Clothilde (Saint; Princess) of BURGUNDY
Lothaire I (King) of SOISSONS
Chilperic I of SOISSONS (King of the FRANKS; 1st King of NEUSTRIA)
Clotaire (Clothaire Chlothar) II
Dagobert I (11th King) of AUSTRASIA
Sigisbert II (12th King) of AUSTRASIA
Dagobert II (King) of AUSTRASIA; King of FRANKS; (Saint)
Clodius (I; IV; Duke) of EAST FRANKS (324? - 389)
Marcomir I (VI; V; Duke) of EAST FRANKS
Chlodwig de COLOGNE (405? - 450?)
Amalberge of the FRANKS
Sigebert (Siegbert) (I; King) of COLOGNE
Cloderic `the Parricide' (King) of COLOGNE
Munderic of VITRY-EN-PERTHOIS
Mummolin des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Baudgise II (Duke) of AQUITAINE
Arnold (Saint Arnulf) des FRANCS RIPUAIRES
Pepin (Pippin) II `the Fat' of HERSTAL
Charles `the Hammer' MARTEL (Duke) of FRANKS
Pepin III (8th King) of All FRANKS (715? - 768)
Charlemagne (King) of the FRANKS
Pepin (I; IV; King) of ITALY
Aeda (Alda Attala) of the FRANKS
Oda BILLUNG of THURINGIA
Otto (Otho) (Count/Duke) of SAXONY
Conan I `the Crooked' (Count/Duke) of BRITTANY
William `the Conqueror' (Duke) of NORMANDY

Vale optime,
Triarius



________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

So why couldn't this guy be the head of his own familia with a patrician gens?

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

> If you just wanted the "parent" to be older, then just say he has to be
> older. why 18yrs older?

Because that's a reasonable limit for a parental age difference. There's
absolutely nothing which says a Nova Roman citizen must have a Nova Roman
parent. It doesn't convey any sort of advantage. So there's no need for any
such artificiality. If a person truly wants to enter into a familial
relationship, we have laws that allow it. But otherwise adult citizens are
expected to be the heads of their own families.

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

> So why couldn't this guy be the head of his own familia with a patrician
> gens?

There is no such thing as a purely patrician gens. Gentes have patrician and
plebeian branches in Nova Roma as in antiquity.

Triarius joined Nova Roma at a transitional time. The Lex Labiena de Gentibus
had been approved a year earlier and would become fully effective on the 29th
of January, 2005. Triarius applied for citizenship during January 2005, and
would have had to obtain the permission of the paterfamilias of a patrician
familia before the 29th of January if he were to become a patrician. Such
was not forthcoming. He could have become the head of a plebeian familia
within gens Iulia, but he chose otherwise.

Nobody joining Nova Roma since that time has been able to come in as a
patrician unless they've been (a) born into a patrician familia, or (b)
adopted into one.

Unless Triarius wants to continue this discussion in public, I will not
discuss the particulars of his citizenship any further. I don't mind
addressing general questions, but the particulars of a given citizen's
admission are to be kept private.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve,

Just out of curiosty,

How do we have plebians and patricians in the same gens? Like Iulia?
Like, I wanted to be a Iulii cuz I wanted to be a Iulii and after that I was snooping around the civies list and was like !hey! these guys are patricians...nifty. However, I am a plebian as are others I find when I go look us up.

Is it a matter or Plebian and Patrician families within the same gens?

I am sure I am missing something and that there is a sensable explaination that anyone can offer me...I hadn't really given it much thought until this thread :)

Just curious...not actually concerned as in Nova Roma it strikes me that you aren't particualarly limited by class...the classes are just different,not inequal.


Vale:

Gaia Iulia Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: David Kling (Modianus)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Censor Anniae Minuciae Marcellae salutem dicit

As the only adult in Nova Roma who has been formally adopted into a
Patrician Gens from a Plebeian Gens I can attest that as someone who is in
his mid-30s I was adopted by a Patrician in his 50s (Caeso Fabius Buteo
Quintilianus), therefore, becoming a Patrician. It would not make sense for
me to be adopted by (lets say) a 20 year old Patrician. While there is much
about the old gens system that I miss, the new reforms are more logical in
the sense that it doesn't make sense for a 36 year old (for example) to be
adopted by (lets say) an 18 year old. But an 18 year difference could very
easily be the age difference between a parent and biological offspring and
thus a suitable age difference between a Pater (or Mater) Familias and the
adopted. I hope I made sense when I explained this. I just woke up :)

Vale:

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus

On 4/11/07, Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> What's the purpose of that? Who came up with the number?
>
> So, if I were a materfamilias, I could only adopt 9 yr old children in to
> my gens? LAME. I guess all the elderly citizens can't join any gens, they
> have to start their own? Doesn't seem fair.
>
> Vale,
>
> Annia Minucia Marcella
> http://minucia.ciarin.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?
>
> Salve Marcella,
>
> Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@... <annia%40ciarin.com>> writes:
>
> [...]
> > Also, what's the deal with the age thing? Did he give a reason why it
> had
> > to be an 18yr difference?
>
> It's the law. See the Lex Equitia Familiaris. Nobody can adopt another
> citizen who is not at least 18 years younger.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN.EQVIT.MARINVS
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Gaia Iulia,

Gaia Iulia Felix writes:

> How do we have plebians and patricians in the same gens?

It's the same as antiquity. Gentes are vast things with many families in
them. A gens might have begun as patricians, like the Fabia or the Iulia for
example, but over time some plebeian clients would take the name out of
respect, and slaves would be freed and become plebeian. So by the time of
the middle republic there were no 'pure' patrician gentes left. (Though
there certainly were 'pure' plebeian gentes that had never had a patrician in
them.)

> Is it a matter or Plebian and Patrician families within the same gens?

Yes, it is. In Nova Roma the patricians are generally the people who were the
earliest to join.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salve,

I had forgotten that the rules have changed since when I joined.

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salve Marcella,

Annia Minucia Marcella <annia@...> writes:

> So why couldn't this guy be the head of his own familia with a patrician
> gens?

There is no such thing as a purely patrician gens. Gentes have patrician and
plebeian branches in Nova Roma as in antiquity.

Triarius joined Nova Roma at a transitional time. The Lex Labiena de Gentibus
had been approved a year earlier and would become fully effective on the 29th
of January, 2005. Triarius applied for citizenship during January 2005, and
would have had to obtain the permission of the paterfamilias of a patrician
familia before the 29th of January if he were to become a patrician. Such
was not forthcoming. He could have become the head of a plebeian familia
within gens Iulia, but he chose otherwise.

Nobody joining Nova Roma since that time has been able to come in as a
patrician unless they've been (a) born into a patrician familia, or (b)
adopted into one.

Unless Triarius wants to continue this discussion in public, I will not
discuss the particulars of his citizenship any further. I don't mind
addressing general questions, but the particulars of a given citizen's
admission are to be kept private.

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

Have you found it yet? I just noticed I'm still not listed as assidui.

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Taxpayers as of March 31, 2760


Salve Annia Minucia Marcella

I have the email you sent and I am trying to find the paypal listing of your payment. As soon as I have it the list will be updated.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Annia Minucia Marcella<mailto:annia@...>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Taxpayers as of March 31, 2760

Salve,

It's not current, cause I'm not on it. I'll be patient though, and wait for you to correct it later. I already sent you the information via private e-mail.

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com<http://minucia.ciarin.com/>

----- Original Message -----
From: Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Taxpayers as of March 31, 2760

Salvete Romans

I believe that this is current as of today. Please remember that this is
an ongoing process and additions will be made all the time. If you
believe you have been left off by mistake please drop me a private note
and it will be looked into.

Also ALL Romans who hold any office, Religious or Secular are reminded
that they must be a taxpayers by May 31, 2760 or they forfeit their
offices.

Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Consul

Taxpayers are listed in alphabetical order by Nomen

Decimus Aemilius Severus

Irene Afrania Lentula

Lucius Amelius Paulinus

Gaius Antonius Germanicus

Tita Artoria Marcella

Gaia Aurelia Falco Silvana

Quintus Bianchius Rufinus

Lucius Cassius Pontonius

Lucia Cornelia Ursula

Quinta Cornelia Quadrata

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Marcus Cornelius Felix

Tiberius Cornelius Scipio

Alia Equitia Marina

Gratia Equitia Marina

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

Quintus Fabius Maximus

Titus Flavius Calvus

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Paula Gratia Stephana

Gaius Iulius Verrus

Gnaeus Iulius Caesar

Marcus Iulius Severus

Serva Iulia Severa

Quintus Iulius Celsus

Sexta Iunia Palladia

Lucius Iunius Bassus

Lucius Iunius Brutus

Aulus Liburnius Hadrianus

Marcus Lucretius Agricola

Marca Minicia Fortunata

Marcus Octavius Gracchus

Tiberius Octavius Avitus

Quintus Postumius Albinus Maius

Marca Rutilia Severa

Lucius Salix Cicero

Gaius Sertorius Baeticus

Quintus Servilius Priscus

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Quintus Valerius Callidus

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve!

And many thanks for such an expediant response :)


Ah! Clear as crystal then!

Vale bene,


C.Iulia Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?


Salve Gaia Iulia,

Gaia Iulia Felix writes:

> How do we have plebians and patricians in the same gens?

It's the same as antiquity. Gentes are vast things with many families in
them. A gens might have begun as patricians, like the Fabia or the Iulia for
example, but over time some plebeian clients would take the name out of
respect, and slaves would be freed and become plebeian. So by the time of
the middle republic there were no 'pure' patrician gentes left. (Though
there certainly were 'pure' plebeian gentes that had never had a patrician in
them.)

> Is it a matter or Plebian and Patrician families within the same gens?

Yes, it is. In Nova Roma the patricians are generally the people who were the
earliest to join.

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete :)

I hope that this is an answerable question... It may seem kind of
tough I suppose, but I wanted to see some of your responses (how can't
they be interesting? I learn something new from you guys about every
hour!). I thought it would be thought provoking at best, and
hopefully make for some decent conversation.

Can't wait to hear back!

Chuck

Hannibal and Arminius

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Fl. Galerius Annia Municia sal.

Since the Gens Reform, the gens is no longer the fundamental unit of family
within Nova Roma. It is now the domus (house). There are a few gentes that
still keep to the older model such as the gens Galeria but even among us
there are the individual houses. My cousin, Tb. Galerius Paulinus, has his domus
and I have mine. However, both of us (& most of the Galeri) still hold that
our materfamilias is still Helena Galeria Aureliana. All of the Galeri of
Nova Roma are plebeians and right proud of it.

A new citizen could choose a nomen that is primarily considered to be
patrician even though they are Plebs. However, there are a number of examples that
could be cited of Plebs of any age being adopted into a Patrician gens.
Historically, the only way that many of the Patrician families continued to
exist in the Late Republic & Principate was by adoption. Plebeian gentes do not
have that problem as we are fertile and numerous like the grain stalks of
Ceres Mater that spring from Tellus.

Personally, I do not believe that being a Nova Roman patrician carries very
much benefit. A Patrician cannot be a Tribune; an office that holds more
legal authority than virtually any other except Dictator. Patricians are
limited in the offices they may hold and the elections in which they may vote. A
Pleb can be a member of all the assemblies and vote in all elections. They
may hold virtually any sacred office except a very few.

With the exception of a very few sacred offices and a few century points, it
seems to me that the Patricians are an enfeebled and limited class within the
Res Publica. Even one of our Censores sprang from strong Plebeian
rootstock & was grafted onto a bean stalk but, I think, his age was not a
consideration.

Please understand that I do not in any way criticize his choice or that of
he who adopted him. I consider them both to be friends & they contribute very
much to Nova Roma. However, it must be said that even the best beans, at
times, cause rude noises & odd odors.

Vale.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius S.P.D.

Do all of the Patrician gentes of Nova Roma have active members? Are there
some that are but a name and an empty shell? Have the Censores and Senate
made certain that some Patrician gentes have any sort of activity?

Perhaps during the next Census, it might be determined if there are shells
with living snails among the Patricians thus opening the possibility of fresh,
new Patrician buds grown from plebeian roots.

It is certainly a subject that is worthy of discussion.

Valete.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve,

I'll go with Marius and Diocletianus, as Caesar seems almost as obvious
as Romulus and Remus. Without restraints, self-imposed or otherwise, I'd
have gone with Romulus and Caesar.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Fl. Galerius sal.

It is a bit like the Hapsburgs of Europe. In the 12th century, they were a
vigorous minor noble family that grew to greatness dominating the royal
houses of most of Europe. However, they had a tendency to be insular in their
breeding and a few centuries later they were so far gone that the last scion of
one branch was an idiot who couldn't even chew his own food due to birth
defects in his physical make up.

Nova Roma is a young organization but so many of the founders and first
members are gone or just not strong on doing much. Might be time for some of the
Patricians to consider being a little more open to some new reform to allow
the vigorous to freshen up their lines.

Vale.

> How do we have plebians and patricians in the same gens?

It's the same as antiquity. Gentes are vast things with many families in
them. A gens might have begun as patricians, like the Fabia or the Iulia for
example, but over time some plebeian clients would take the name out of
respect, and slaves would be freed and become plebeian. So by the time of
the middle republic there were no 'pure' patrician gentes left. (Though
there certainly were 'pure' plebeian gentes that had never had a patrician
in
them.)

> Is it a matter or Plebian and Patrician families within the same gens?

Yes, it is. In Nova Roma the patricians are generally the people who were the
earliest to join.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius sal.

Numa and Marius.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "a.miriam nelson" <vxgbhd@...> wrote:

>
> Salve,
>
> Just out of curiosty,
>
> How do we have plebians and patricians in the same gens? Like Iulia?
> Like, I wanted to be a Iulii cuz I wanted to be a Iulii and after

that I was snooping around the civies list and was like !hey! these
guys are patricians...nifty. However, I am a plebian as are others I
find when I go look us up.

>
> Is it a matter or Plebian and Patrician families within the same gens?
>

Agricola Felici sal.

Yes, that is exactly it. See http://novaroma.org/nr/Lucretius for an
example from antiquity.


Optime vale!

Salve et salvete,

Chuck wrote:

>I hope that this is an answerable question...

Barely.

Gods...I'm agreeing with Flavius Galerius.<g> Numa Pompilius and Gaius Marius have my vote. Numa for establishing much of the foundation of Roma antiqua and Marius for creating the modern military and setting the stage for civil war and the dissolution of the Republic.

Vale et valete bene,
Artoria Marcella

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Flavi Galeri,

Fl. Galerius writes:

[...]

> Nova Roma is a young organization but so many of the founders and first
> members are gone or just not strong on doing much.

You hit that nail right on the head.

> Might be time for some of the
> Patricians to consider being a little more open to some new reform to
> allow the vigorous to freshen up their lines.

This patrician would be delighted to see more leadership coming from the
patrician order, though I'm also pleased to see the ratio of patricians to
plebeians finally coming into something like a historically correct value.
We haven't yet gotten to where 90% of our population is plebeian, which is a
goal, but we're getting there.

I agree with your proposal that the censors should review the status of the
patrician familiae, and if we have gaps it would be good to elevate some of
our most distinguished plebeians. So far that honor has gone to the Minucia,
but no others that I know of. This year is a census year, and it'd be a good
action for the censors to consider.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

SALVE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mrgrumpkin" <mrgrumpkin@...> wrote:
> I hope that this is an answerable question... >>>

Numa and Cincinnatus.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

SALVE!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@... wrote:
> With the exception of a very few sacred offices and a few century
points, it seems to me that the Patricians are an enfeebled and
limited class within the Res Publica. >>>

Well, the point is: it seems to you.

VALE BENE,
IVL SABINVS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mrgrumpkin" <mrgrumpkin@...> wrote:

>
> Salvete :)
>
> I hope that this is an answerable question... It may seem kind of
> tough I suppose, but I wanted to see some of your responses (how can't
> they be interesting? I learn something new from you guys about every
> hour!). I thought it would be thought provoking at best, and
> hopefully make for some decent conversation.
>
> Can't wait to hear back!
>
> Chuck
>

For my money I'd have to say the Gracchi brothers. Yes I know, most
people would say something like Caesar or Augustus or Constantine, but
in my opinion, it was the Gracchi brothers and the shenanigans that
accompanied their political moves which tolled the death knell for the
Republic and paved the way for Marius, Sulla, Caesar, Augustus, and
the ultimate change from a representative form of government (albeit
somewhat restricted) into an eventual absolute monarchy, that fed on
its people and then on itself (the fate of all tyrannies)so that by
476 A.D. no one gave a damn any longer whether the Empire survived or
not. A true shame.

Salve

Interesting question. I'll propose Augustus (Gaius Julius Caesar
Octavianus) and Constantine I (Flavius Valerius Constantinus Augustus)
and if you will permit an indulgence, an honorable mention to Gaius
Marius.

C. Cornelius Rufus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mrgrumpkin" <mrgrumpkin@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete :)
>
> I hope that this is an answerable question... It may seem kind of
> tough I suppose, but I wanted to see some of your responses (how can't
> they be interesting? I learn something new from you guys about every
> hour!). I thought it would be thought provoking at best, and
> hopefully make for some decent conversation.
>
> Can't wait to hear back!
>
> Chuck
>

Salvete;
Boudicca & Cleopatra!
vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
> Salve
>
> Interesting question. I'll propose Augustus (Gaius Julius Caesar
> Octavianus) and Constantine I (Flavius Valerius Constantinus

Augustus)

> and if you will permit an indulgence, an honorable mention to

Gaius

> Marius.
>
> C. Cornelius Rufus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "mrgrumpkin" <mrgrumpkin@> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete :)
> >
> > I hope that this is an answerable question... It may seem kind of
> > tough I suppose, but I wanted to see some of your responses (how

can't

> > they be interesting? I learn something new from you guys about

every

> > hour!). I thought it would be thought provoking at best, and
> > hopefully make for some decent conversation.
> >
> > Can't wait to hear back!
> >
> > Chuck
> >
>

Salve,

Let me see if I understand this correctly, some patricians might not be patricians anymore if they're inactive?

Vale,

Annia Minucia Marcella
http://minucia.ciarin.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Patrician Class?



I agree with your proposal that the censors should review the status of the
patrician familiae, and if we have gaps it would be good to elevate some of
our most distinguished plebeians. So far that honor has gone to the Minucia,
but no others that I know of. This year is a census year, and it'd be a good
action for the censors to consider.

Vale,

CN.EQVIT.MARINVS




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valetudo quod fortuna;

I was the 78th citizen to join Nova Roma; entering at the beginning of
July 1998. I came into the New City as a Plebian. A few years later,
Gens Ulleria was elevated to Patrician staus for my small, steady
contributions. Annia Ulleria Machinatrix is my beloved wife of near
25 years.

Clovius Ullerius Ursus is my Oathed Brother from a time before Nova
Roma existed. He was my Squire-brother in the SCA and an Air Force
comrade. I was honored to officiate at his wedding in 2002 to the
beautiful Myra, Their son, Alexander, is a lovely young lad. Ursus
entered Gens Ulleria as head of his own family in July 2001.

Prima Ulleria Gladiatrix is my oathed sister from a time before Nova
Roma existed. I have guested under her roof in the past, and have
fought by her side in SCA combat. Gladiatrix entered Nova Roma as the
head of her own Family in March 2000.

Drusilla Ulleria Germanica is a friend through correspondance. I gave
her permission to become a member of Gens Ulleria (which was a change
of Gens) because I liked what I saw in the letters we exchanged.
Germanica entered Nova Roma as the head of her own Family in January
2004.

These are the Patrician Families within Gens Ulleria: Venator
Piperbarbus, Ursus, Gladiatrix and Germanica.

Any cives who would like to found Plebian families within Gens
Ulleria, contact me. The main requirement for my blessing is that one
gives worship to the Northern Holy Ones, as well as honor to the Roman
Holies.

--
=========================================
In amicitia quod fides -
Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus
Civis, Patrician, Paterfamilias et Lictor

Emeritus: Quaestor, Rogator, Diribitor et Legate

Religio Septentrionalis - Poet

Dominus Sodalitas Coquuorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

http://anheathenreader.blogspot.com/
http://www.myspace.com/stefnullarsson
http://www.catamount-grange-hearth.org/
http://www.cafepress.com/catamountgrange
--
May the Holy Powers smile on our efforts.
May the Spirits of our family lines nod in approval.
May we be of Worth to our fellow Nova Romans.

Scaurus Quirites SPD.

I'm not certain how sensible this sort of question is historically,
since there are different sorts of influence and vastly different
contexts.. I can't name two, but if there were a longer list: Numa,
Tarquinius Superbus, Quintus Hortensius, Cato the Elder, Scipio
Africanus, the Gracchi, Marius, Caesar, and Augustus would be the
leading candidates in my view. If, on the other hand, one thinks of
enemies who had a profound effect on Rome, Marinus has a valid point.

Valete.

Scaurus