Salvete quirites,

Today's APOD is a beautiful image of the oculus as seen from within the
Pantheon.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Salvete, Scholastica Lentulvsqve,

> > Yes, and as I said in my message to the consul¹s brief message, this has
> > sparked a (mostly) nice discussion of Latin pronunciation which is beneficial
> > to the list members, especially new ones who have not heard this mentioned in
> > the past.

Well, so my mission is accomplished. Thanks by the feedback.
I will sleep well if I know my time with my poor tongue on my poor
microphone will be not in vane.

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius

Salve Praetrix,

It would seem we were just looking at the same thing.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

"A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@...> writes:

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica quirítibus, sociís, peregrínísque bonae voluntátis
> S.P.D.
>
> Today¹s Astronomy Picture of the Day features an intriguing view into
> the dome of the Pantheon:
> <http://antwerp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html>

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XII Kalendas Maius; haec dies nefastus est.

"Next dawn when Memnon's saffron-robed mother,
With her rosy horses, comes to view the wide lands,
The sun leaves the Ram, Aries, leader of the woolly flock,
Betrayer of Helle, and meets a nobler victim on leaving.
Whether it's Jupiter the Bull, or Io the Heifer's hard to tell:
The front of the creature appears: the rest's concealed.
But whether the sign's a bull or whether it's a heifer,
It enjoys that reward for its love, against Juno's wishes." - Ovid,
Fasti IV

"This god [Zeus], desirous of union with this mortal maid, has imposed
upon her these wanderings. Maiden, you have gained a cruel suitor for
your hand." - Prometheus to Io; Aeschylus, "Prometheus Bound" 565

"And [Hera] set a watcher upon her [Io], great and strong Argos, who
with four eyes looks every way. And the goddess stirred in him
unwearying strength: sleep never fell upon his eyes; but he kept sure
watch always." - Homerica, The Aegimius, Fragment 5 (from Scholiast on
Euripides, Phoenicians 1116)

"It may be, just as a certain cave on the coast which fronts the
Aegean Sea, where Io is said to have given birth to Epaphos, is called
Böos Aule, that the island got the name Euboia (Land of Good Cattle)
from the same cause." - Strabo, Geography 10.1.3

"Two female figures which stand near, Io, the daughter of Inakhos, and
Kallisto, the daughter of Lykaon, of both of whom exactly the same
story is told, to wit, love of Zeus, wrath of Hera, and metamorphosis,
Io becoming a cow and Kallisto a bear." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece
1.25.1, describing the Acropolis in Athens

"From Inachus and Argia [was born] Io. Jupiter loved and embraced Io,
and changed her to heifer form so that Juno would not recognize her.
When Juno found out, she sent Argus, who had gleaming eyes all around
to guard her. Mercury, at Jove's command, killed him. But Juno sent a
fearful shape to plague her, and out of terror of it she was driven
wildly and compelled to cast herself into the sea, which is called
Ionian. Thence she swam to Scythia, and the Bosporus is named from
that; thence she went to Egypt where she bore Epaphus. When Jove
realized that for his sake she had borne such suffering, he restored
her to her own form, and made her a goddess of the Egyptians, called
Isis." - Hyginus, Fabulae 145

"The Phoinikians came to Argos, and set out their cargo. On the fifth
or sixth day after their arrival, when their wares were almost all
sold, many women came to the shore and among them especially the
daughter of the king, whose name was Io (according to Persians and
Greeks alike), the daughter of Inakhos. As these stood about the stern
of the ship bargaining for the wares they liked, the Phoinikians
incited one another to set upon them. Most of the women escaped: Io
and others were seized and thrown into the ship, which then sailed
away for Aigyptos. In this way, the Persians say (and not as the
Greeks), was how Io came to Aigyptos, and this, according to them, was
the first wrong that was done. " - Herodotus, Histories 1.1.2

"But the Phoinikians do not tell the same story about Io as the
Persians. They say that they did not carry her off to Aigyptos by
force. She had intercourse in Argos with the captain of the ship.
Then, finding herself pregnant, she was ashamed to have her parents
know it, and so, lest they discover her condition, she sailed away
with the Phoinikians of her own accord." - Herodotus, Histories 1.5.2

"All Aigyptians sacrifice unblemished bulls and bull-calves; they may
not sacrifice cows: these are sacred to Isis. For the images of Isis
are in woman's form, horned like a cow, exactly as the Greeks picture
Io, and cows are held by far the most sacred of all beasts of the herd
by all Aigyptians alike." - Herodotus, Histories 2.41.1

"Isis: She is called Io. She was snatched by Zeus from Argos and he,
fearing Hera, changed her first into a white cow, then into a black
one, and then into a one that was violet-coloured. After wandering
around with her, he came into Egypt. The Egyptians, then, honour Isis,
and for this reason they carve the horns of a cow on the head of her
statue, alluding to the change from maiden to cow." - Suidas "Isis"


Io was the beautiful daughter of Inachus of Argos. She began having
strange dreams with voices and visions telling her to leave her bed
and go into a field where Zeus could `see' her. She told her father of
the dreams and he sought advice of the oracles at Pytho and Dodona but
they could offer no help. Finally, he sent an embassy to Loxias. For
the oracles of Loxias, the meaning was crystal clear. They advised
Inakhus to disown his daughter, cast her into the streets and drive
her from his country. If this was not done, the oracles warned, Zeus
would eradicate Inakhus and his people without mercy. With heavy
heart, Inakhus obeyed the oracles and forced his young daughter, Io,
from his house. Hera had not missed the drama unfolding in Argos. She
was angered by Zeus' (attempted) infidelity so she punished Zeus by
punishing Io. As Io fled in tears from her father's house, she began
to change. Horns popped out on her head and, as she ran, she
completely transformed into a black and white heifer. A gadfly began
to sting and pester her, forcing her to run farther and farther from
her home and happiness.

Hera wanted to be sure that her husband, Zeus, could not be alone with
his new infatuation so she set the herdsman, Argos, to follow the
heifer-girl. Argos was called Argos Panoptes, meaning `all seeing'
because he had one hundred eyes placed all over his body. Io was
terrified of Argos and she fled from him as much as she did from the
sting of the ever present gadfly. Zeus was inflamed. With Argos on
guard he couldn't secretly meet with the lovely Io. He instructed his
son, Hermes, to kill Argos. To this day, Hermes is often called
Argeiphontes, `the slayer of Argos'. He lulled the herdsman to sleep
with sweet music and then beheaded the sleeping watchman before he
could defend himself. Io was now free of the all seeing Argos.

The punishment was not over yet. The gadfly was still goading the
heifer-girl to the ends of the earth. As Io fled through the Caucasus
mountains she saw Prometheus bound to the stony crag. Prometheus was a
Titan who had angered Zeus with his reckless affection for the lowly
mortals who populated the earth below Mount Olympos. Prometheus was
chained, spread-eagle, to the pitiless rockface by the plan of Zeus
and by the hand of Hephaestus. Prometheus had been left to suffer in
solitude and misery until Zeus' fury subsided.

Io's conversation with Prometheus is quite moving. She told him of her
sorrowful past, how she can never sleep in the same place two nights
in succession because of the insistent gadfly. She begged the Titan
for his prediction of her future. The name `Prometheus' means
`forethought'. She simply wanted to know when her suffering would end?
Even in his tortured condition, Prometheus tried to spare her
feelings. She asked why he would not be forthright. He replied that he
was afraid that if he told her the depth and duration of her
suffering, the knowledge might break her spirit. She wanted to hear it
all, no matter how dismal her future may be, she wanted to hear it
all.

Prometheus told her of her long, lonely road. He advised her on which
way to travel and where she might find help along the way. He told her
to be strong because she would eventually be freed from the curse of
Hera. Her journey would end in Egypt. He told her that she would be
restored to her original beauty and have a glorious son named Epaphos.
Prometheus also foresaw the ironic fact that one of her descendants
would, after thirteen generations, come back to that lonely mountain
and cut the bonds that made him famous.

The predictions of Prometheus came true. Io's flight took her East
towards Asia, South to the land of the Amazons and, after years of
tortuous wandering, she came to Egypt. When the hand of Zeus reached
out and touched Io, Hera's curse was lifted. Io was restored to her
youthful beauty and was allowed to live out her mortal life in peace.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Homerica, Strabo, Pausanius, Herodotus, Hyginus, Suidas
Io (http://messagenet.com/myths/bios/io.html)

Salve Cornelius Lentulus et alius,

The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that your
predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules. The "G" in
Greek is always hard, there is no "K" [the Latins did not adopt the
"K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter was
not identical], and there is no "V". The idea of Latin being a little
softer than Greek in pronunciation, and with more vowel-consonant
balance keeps with the Roman love of harmony and comprehends many of
the changes which Latin instituted; for example the adding for the
consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition of
"V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical save
for the consonant], there are other examples I could use, but these
will suffice for now.
There is also the long history of Ecclesiastical pronunciation, whose
lexicon began with first century. St. Augustine comments on how few
Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
difference between "U" and "V".
Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of Italian
and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
pronunciation.

Valete,
Aulus Blanchius Pius
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus
<cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:

>
> Cn. Lentulus Q. Valerio sal.:
>
> Your pronunciation, Quinte Valeri, is very similar to the Latin

pronunciation of the 4th-5th cetury CE. In those times:

>
> ci = was "kyi" or "tyi" and was developing to "chi" at the 5th-6th

century.

> gi = was "gyi" or "dyi", similarly developing to "ji" (J- like in

John).

> tia, tie, tii, tio, tiu = were "tsia", "tsie" etc..
> ae, oe = were "e", like in English "men".
>
> So your method is similar to that, but what you use exactly was

never existed as a Latin pronunciation.

>
> The classical Latin pronunciation, the pronunciation from the 2th

century BC to 2th century CE was as follows:

>
> ae = ay like in English "why", "I"...
> oe = oy, like in English "boy"
> "c" and "g" = always "k" and "g" without any exception.
> ti = always "ti" without any exception.
> v = a bilabial fricative (caught between v and w, like in hindi)
> qu = kw/kv (like above)
>
>
> If you want to pronounce Latin as the great Romans did, you have to

adopt that way I have written above.

>
>
> Cura ut valeas!
>
>
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> R O G A T O R
> -------------------------------
> Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
> Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
> Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
> -------------------------------
> Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Dominus Factionis Russatae
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
> L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Salvete Romans

"Our republic is not the work of one man alone,
But of many. It was not created during
the life time of one individual,
but built up throughout the centuries"

Cato, in Cicero De Republica 2.2

Happy Birthday Roma!!!

Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Scholastica Marino optimo suo quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve Praetrix,
>
> It would seem we were just looking at the same thing.
>
> Yes, it looks that way...but you were no doubt asleep when I looked at it
> (at a time when I, too, should have been in bed asleep). I check the APOD
> every day; many of them are magnificent, and a few at least are directly of
> classical interest. It¹s a good site to bookmark.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
> "A. Tullia Scholastica" <fororom@... <mailto:fororom%40localnet.com>
> > writes:
>
>> >
>> > A. Tullia Scholastica quirítibus, sociís, peregrínísque bonae voluntátis
>> > S.P.D.
>> >
>> > Today¹s Astronomy Picture of the Day features an intriguing view into
>> > the dome of the Pantheon:
>> > <http://antwerp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem XI Kalendas Maius; haec dies nefastus publicus
est.

"Amulius now being dead and matters quietly disposed, the two brothers
would neither dwell in Alba without governing there, nor take the
government into their own hands during the life of their grandfather.
Having therefore delivered the dominion up into his hands, and paid
their mother befitting honor, they resolved to live by themselves, and
build a city in the same place where they were in their infancy
brought up. This seems the most honorable reason for their departure;
though perhaps it was necessary, having such a body of slaves and
fugitives collected about them, either to come to nothing by
dispersing them, or if not so, then to live with them elsewhere. For
that the inhabitants of Alba did not think fugitives worthy of being
received and incorporated as citizens among them plainly appears from
the matter of the women, an attempt made not wantonly but of
necessity, because they could not get wives by good-will. For they
certainly paid unusual respect and honor to those whom they thus
forcibly seized.

Not long after the first foundation of the city, they opened a
sanctuary of refuge for all fugitives, which they called the temple of
the god Asylaeus, where they received and protected all, delivering
none back, neither the servant to his master, the debtor to his
creditor, nor the murderer into the hands of the magistrate, saying it
was a privileged place, and they could so maintain it by an order of
the holy oracle; insomuch that the city grew presently very populous,
for, they say, it consisted at first of no more than a thousand
houses. But of that hereafter.

Their minds being fully bent upon building, there arose presently a
difference about the place where. Romulus chose what was called Roma
Quadrata, or the Square Rome, and would have the city there. Remus
laid out a piece of ground on the Aventine Mount, well fortified by
nature, which was from him called Remonium, but now Rignarium.
Concluding at last to decide the contest by a divination from a flight
of birds, and placing themselves apart at some distance, Remus, they
say, saw six vultures, and Romulus double the number; others say Remus
did truly see his number, and that Romulus feigned his, but, when
Remus came to him, that then he did, indeed, see twelve. Hence it is
that the Romans, in their divinations from birds, chiefly regard the
vulture, though Herodorus Ponticus relates that Hercules was always
very joyful when a vulture appeared to him upon any action. For it is
a creature the least hurtful of any, pernicious neither to corn,
fruit-tree, nor cattle; it preys only upon carrion, and never kills or
hurts any living thing; and as for birds, it touches not them, though
they are dead, as being of its own species, whereas eagles, owls, and
hawks mangle and kill their own fellow-creatures; yet, as Aeschylus
says,

'What bird is clean that preys on fellow bird?'

Besides all other birds are, so to say, never out of our eyes; they
let themselves be seen of us continually; but a vulture is a very rare
sight, and you can seldom meet with a man that has seen their young;
their rarity and infrequency has raised a strange opinion in some,
that they come to us from some other world; as soothsayers ascribe a
divine origination to all things not produced either of nature or of
themselves.

When Remus knew the cheat, he was much displeased; and as Romulus was
casting up a ditch, where he designed the foundation of the citywall,
he turned some pieces of the work to ridicule, and obstructed others:
at last, as he was in contempt leaping over it, some say Romulus
himself struck him, others Celer, one of his companions; he fell,
however, and in the scuffle Faustulus also was slain, and Plistinus,
who, being Faustulus's brother, story tells us, helped to bring up
Romulus. Celer upon this fled instantly into Tuscany, and from him the
Romans call all men that are swift of foot Celeres; and because
Quintus Metellus, at his father's funeral, in a few days' time gave
the people a show of gladiators, admiring his expedition in getting it
ready, they gave him the name of Celer.

Romulus, having buried his brother Remus, together with his two
foster-fathers, on the mount Remonia, set to building his city; and
sent for men out of Tuscany, who directed him by sacred usages and
written rules in all the ceremonies to be observed, as in a religious
rite. First, they dug a round trench about that which is now the
Comitium, or Court of Assembly, and into it solemnly threw the first-
fruits of all things either good by custom or necessary by nature;
lastly, every man taking a small piece of earth of the country from
whence he came, they all threw them in promiscuously together. This
trench they call, as they do the heavens, Mundus; making which their
center, they described the city in a circle round it. Then the founder
fitted to a plow a brazen plowshare, and, yoking together a bull and a
cow, drove himself a deep line or furrow round the bounds; while the
business of those that followed after was to see that whatever earth
was thrown up should be turned all inwards towards the city, and not
to let any clod lie outside. With this line they described the wall,
and called it, by a contraction, Pomoerium, that is, post murum, after
or beside the wall; and where they designed to make a gate, there they
took out the share, carried the plow over, and left a space; for which
reason they consider the whole wall as holy, except where the gates
are; for had they adjudged them also sacred, they could not, without
offense to religion, have given free ingress and egress for the
necessaries of human life, some of which are in themselves unclean.

As for the day they began to build the city, it is universally agreed
to have been the twenty-first of April, and that day the Romans
annually keep holy, calling it their country's birthday. At first,
they say, they sacrificed no living creature on this day, thinking it
fit to preserve the feast of their country's birthday pure and without
stain of blood. Yet before ever the city was built, there was a feast
of herdsmen and shepherds kept on this day, which went by the name of
Palilia." - Plutarch, Lives, "Romulus" 9-12


"After the government of Alba was thus transferred to Numitor, Romulus
and Remus were seized with the desire of building a city in the
locality where they had been exposed. There was the superfluous
population of the Alban and Latin towns, to these were added the
shepherds: it was natural to hope that with all these Alba would be
small and Lavinium small in comparison with the city which was to be
founded. These pleasant anticipations were disturbed by the ancestral
curse -ambition-which led to a deplorable quarrel over what was at
first a trivial matter. As they were twins and no claim to precedence
could be based on seniority, they decided to consult the tutelary
deities of the place by means of augury as to who was to give his name
to the new city, and who was to rule it after it had been founded.
Romulus accordingly selected the Palatine as his station for
observation, Remus the Aventine. Remus is said to have been the first
to receive an omen: six vultures appeared to him. The augury had just
been announced to Romulus when double the number appeared to him. Each
was saluted as king by his own party. The one side based their claim
on the priority of the appearance, the other on the number of the
birds. Then followed an angry altercation; heated passions led to
bloodshed; in the tumult Remus was killed. The more common report is
that Remus contemptuously jumped over the newly raised walls and was
forthwith killed by the enraged Romulus, who exclaimed, 'So shall it
be henceforth with every one who leaps over my walls.' Romulus thus
became sole ruler, and the city was called after him, its founder." -
Livy, History of Rome 1.6-7


"The town, which in the course of centuries grew up as Rome, in its
original form embraced according to trustworthy testimony only the
Palatine, or 'square Rome' ('Roma quadrata'), as it was called in
later times from the irregularly quadrangular form of the Palatine
hill. The gates and walls that enclosed this original city remained
visible down to the period of the empire: the sites of two of the
former, the Porta Romana near S. Giorgio in Velabro, and the Porta
Mugionis at the Arch of Titus, are still known to us, and the Palatine
ring-wall is described by Tacitus from his own observation at least on
the sides looking towards the Aventine and Caelian. Many traces
indicate that this was the centre and original seat of the urban
settlement. On the Palatine was to be found the sacred symbol of that
settlement, the 'outfit-vault' ('mundus') as it was called, in which
the first settlers deposited a sufficiency of everything necessary for
a household and added a clod of their dear native earth. There, too,
was situated the building in which all the curies assembled for
religious and other purposes, each at its own hearth ('curiae
veteres'). There stood the meetinghouse of the "Leapers" ('curia
Saliorum') in which also the sacred shields of Mars were preserved,
the sanctuary of the "Wolves" ('Lupercal'), and the dwelling of the
priest of Jupiter. On and near this hill the legend of the founding of
the city placed the scenes of its leading incidents, and the straw-
covered house of Romulus, the shepherd's hut of his foster-father
Faustulus, the sacred fig-tree towards which the cradle with the twins
had floated, the cornelian cherry-tree that sprang from the shaft of
the spear which the founder of the city had hurled from the Aventine
over the valley of the Circus into this enclosure, and other such
sacred relics were pointed out to the believer. Temples in the proper
sense of the term were still at this time unknown, and accordingly the
Palatine has nothing of that sort to show belonging to the primitive
age. The public assemblies of the community were early transferred to
another locality, so that their original site is unknown; only it may
be conjectured that the free space round the mundus, afterwards called
the 'area Apollinis', was the primitive place of assembly for the
burgesses and the senate, and the stage erected over the mundus
itself the primitive seat of justice of the Roman community." -
Mommsen, History of Rome ch. 1 p.22

"The night has gone: dawn breaks. I'm called upon to sing
Of the Parilia, and not in vain if kindly Pales aids me.
Kindly Pales, if I respect your festival,
Then aid me as I sing of pastoral rites.
Indeed, I've often brought ashes of a calf, and stalks
Of beans, in chaste purification, in my full hands:
Indeed, I've leapt the threefold line of flames,
And the wet laurel's sprinkled me with dew.
The goddess, moved, blesses the work: my ship
Sets sail: may favourable winds fill my sails.
Go, people: bring fumigants from the Virgin's altar:
Vesta will grant them, Vesta's gift will purify.
The fumigants are horse blood and calf's ashes,
And thirdly the stripped stalks of stringy beans.
Shepherd, purify your sated sheep at twilight:
First sprinkle the ground with water, and sweep it,
And decorate the sheepfold with leaves and branches,
And hide the festive door with a trailing garland.
Make dark smoke with pure burning sulphur,
And let the sheep bleat, in contact with the smoke.
Burn male-olive wood, and pine, and juniper fronds,
And let scorched laurel crackle in the hearth.
Let a basket of millet keep the millet cakes company:
The rural goddess particularly loves that food.
Add meats, and a pail of her milk, and when the meat
Is cut, offer the warm milk, pray to sylvan Pales,
Saying: `Protect the cattle and masters alike:
And drive everything harmful from my stalls.
If I've fed sheep on sacred ground, sat under a sacred tree,
While they've unwittingly browsed the grass on graves:
If I've entered a forbidden grove, or the nymphs
And the god, half-goat, have fled at sight of me:
If my knife has pruned the copse of a shady bough,
To fill a basket of leaves for a sick ewe:
Forgive me. Don't count it against me, if I've sheltered
My flock, while it hailed, in some rustic shrine,
Don't harm me for troubling the pools. Nymphs,
Forgive, if trampling hooves have muddied your waters.
Goddess, placate the springs, and placate their divinities
On our behalf, and the gods too, scattered in every grove...
We have come To the City's founding.
Great Quirinus, witness your deeds!
Amulius had already been punished, and all
The shepherd folk were subject to the twins,
Who agreed to gather the men together to build walls:
The question was as to which of them should do it.
Romulus said: `There's no need to fight about it:
Great faith is placed in birds, let's judge by birds.'
That seemed fine. One tried the rocks of the wooded Palatine,
The other climbed at dawn to the Aventine's summit.
Remus saw six birds, Romulus twelve in a row.
They stuck to the pact, and Romulus was granted the City.
A day was chosen for him to mark out the walls with a plough.
The festival of Pales was near: the work was started then.
They trenched to the solid rock, threw fruits of the harvest
Into its depths, with soil from the ground nearby.
The ditch was filled with earth, and topped by an altar,
And a fire was duly kindled on the new-made hearth.
Then, bearing down on the plough handle, he marked the walls:
The yoke was borne by a white cow and a snowy ox.
So spoke the king: `Be with me, as I found my City,
Jupiter, Father Mavors, and Mother Vesta:
And all you gods, whom piety summons, take note.
Let my work be done beneath your auspices.
May it last long, and rule a conquered world,
All subject, from the rising to the setting day.'
Jupiter added his omen to Romulus' prayer, with thunder
On the left, and his lightning flashed leftward in the sky.
Delighted by this, the citizens laid foundations,
And the new walls were quickly raised.
The work was overseen by Celer, whom Romulus named,
Saying: `Celer, make it your care to see no one crosses
Walls or trench that we've ploughed: kill whoever dares.'
Remus, unknowingly, began to mock the low walls,
saying: `Will the people be safe behind these?'
He leapt them, there and then. Celer struck the rash man
With his shovel: Remus sank, bloodied, to the stony ground.
When the king heard, he smothered his rising tears,
And kept the grief locked in his heart.
He wouldn't weep in public, but set an example of fortitude,
Saying: `So dies the enemy who shall cross my walls.'
But he granted him funeral honours, and couldn't
Hold back his tears, and the love he tried to hide was obvious.
When they set down the bier, he gave it a last kiss,
And said: `Farewell, my brother, taken against my will!'
And he anointed the body for burning. Faustulus, and Acca
Her hair loosened in mourning, did as he did.
Then the as yet unnamed Quirites wept for the youth:
And finally the pyre, wet by their tears, was lit.
A City arose, destined (who'd have believed it then?)
To plant its victorious foot upon all the lands...
And as long as you stand, sublime, in a conquered world,
May all others fail to reach your shoulders." - Ovid, Fasti IV


Today is the celebration of the Palilia/Romaea. The Palilia is the
festival of Pales, the tutelary divinity of shepherds. (Some of the
ancient writers called this festival the Parilia.) The first part of
the solemnities was a public purification by fire and smoke. The
things burned in order to produce this purifying smoke were the blood
of the October horse, the ashes of the unborn calves from the
Fordicidia, and the shells of beans. The Vestals mixed these
ingredients to create suffimentum, a sort of incense that was
distributed at the altar of Vesta as a fertility charm.

The private rituals were observed primarily by farmers in rural areas.
At earliest dawn the sheep fold had to be cleansed with water, swept,
and decorated with laurel branches and a wreath at its entrance. The
sheep were fumigated with sulfur, and then a fire of olive and pine
wood was kindled. The crackling of laurel branches thrown into it gave
a good omen. Offerings of millet, food, and pails of milk were
brought. Facing the east, the shepherds then prayed to Pales four
times, seeking protection for themselves and their flocks and
forgiveness for any unwitting transgressions. They washed their hands
in dew, drank burranica (milk mixed with must), and were sprinkled
with water shaken from laurel branches. The worshipers lay about
eating and drinking on the grass and after twilight leaped through
bonfires of straw set three in a row, a rite which they believed would
make women fruitful.

Ovid relates that the Palilia was believed to be older than the
foundation of Rome, and it was supposed that Romulus laid out the
first boundary of the city on the very day of the festival in 753 BC,
so that April 21 was henceforth celebrated as the birthday of Rome. By
the third century AD, the old name Palilia had been replaced with
Romaea, the Roman Festival, because of its association with the
birthday of Rome. Numa Pompilius is also said to have been born on
this day.

Valete bene, and Happy Birthday to Rome!

Cato



SOURCES

Ovid, Livy, Plutarch, Palilia/Romaea (http://lonestar.texas.net/
~robison/palilia.html)

> A. Tullia Scholastica A. Bianchio Pio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve Cornelius Lentulus et alius,
>
> The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that your
> predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules.
>
> Actually, he is predicating it upon the findings of classical philology.
> This is the standard pronunciation of Latin, and, insofar as we are able to
> determine, the one the Romans used.
>
>
> The "G" in
> Greek is always hard, there is no "K"
>
> Last I checked, kappa was part of the Greek alphabet, and double gamma was
> a velar nasal. Koppa, a different, Q-like letter, also existed, at least in
> dialects.
>
>
> [the Latins did not adopt the
> "K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter was
> not identical],
>
> Latin has both C and K, although the latter is rare. The Latin alphabet
> was derived from the West Greek one; the Greek alphabet was derived from the
> East Greek one, which replaced the original Old Attic alphabet after the
> Peloponnesian War, c. 403 BC. Different areas retained different alphabets,
> too...
>
> and there is no "V".
>
> In modern Greek, beta is pronounced as English v, and in early Greek, the
> digamma was still around, pronounced like English w. Traces of it remain in
> Homer, and it remains in various dialects for centuries afterward. In Doric,
> it was represented by beta, which, as my text on Greek dialects (Buck)
> observes, has to be understood as having the modern Greek spirant
> pronunciation, English v.
>
>
> The idea of Latin being a little
> softer than Greek in pronunciation, and with more vowel-consonant
> balance keeps with the Roman love of harmony
>
> The Greeks were quite fond of harmony...
>
>
> and comprehends many of
> the changes which Latin instituted; for example the adding for the
> consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition of
> "V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical save
> for the consonant],
>
> I am not a historical linguist, but I seriously doubt that letters were
> added to huios to make it into filius, and it is also possible that hesperos
> was wesperos at some point, at least in the parent language. Liddell, Scott,
> and Jones, the Greek unabridged dictionary, gives among the many possible
> forms of huios one from an inscription, whios, from Nemea, and the OLD gives
> feliuf as the Umbrian version of filius.
>
>
>
>
> there are other examples I could use, but these
> will suffice for now.
>
>
>
>
> There is also the long history of Ecclesiastical pronunciation, whose
> lexicon began with first century. St. Augustine comments on how few
> Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
> difference between "U" and "V".
>
> By then, there probably was. Not many Latin words begin with K, or B, for
> that matter, and some other initial letters are comparatively rare.
>
>
> Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
> pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of Italian
> and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
> pronunciation.
>
> Lentulus has not provided his version of Latin pronunciation, but that of
> classical scholars the world over. He is a graduate student in classical
> philology, and an excellent Latinist, the newly reelected head of the group
> containing the most competent Latinists in the Sodalitas Latinitatis. He
> knows what he is talking about. Rest assured that these scholars have taken
> the development of French and Italian into account, and that of the other
> Romance languages, when they worked on the reconstruction of the classical
> Latin pronunciation, the one most scholars outside of Italy use today. This
> is the pronunciation taught by our own A. Gratius Avitus, a world-famous
> Latinist, and by virtually every other academic in the field. It may be
> uncomfortable for some people to hear that classical Latin was not pronounced
> like, say, Italian, but that is what our research proves to us. This is not
> Lentulus¹ opinion, or mine, but that of academia as a whole.
>
>
>
> Valete,
> Aulus Blanchius Pius
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , Gnaeus
> Cornelius Lentulus
> <cn_corn_lent@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Cn. Lentulus Q. Valerio sal.:
>> >
>> > Your pronunciation, Quinte Valeri, is very similar to the Latin
> pronunciation of the 4th-5th cetury CE. In those times:
>> >
>> > ci = was "kyi" or "tyi" and was developing to "chi" at the 5th-6th
> century.
>> > gi = was "gyi" or "dyi", similarly developing to "ji" (J- like in
> John).
>> > tia, tie, tii, tio, tiu = were "tsia", "tsie" etc..
>> > ae, oe = were "e", like in English "men".
>> >
>> > So your method is similar to that, but what you use exactly was
> never existed as a Latin pronunciation.
>> >
>> > The classical Latin pronunciation, the pronunciation from the 2th
> century BC to 2th century CE was as follows:
>> >
>> > ae = ay like in English "why", "I"...
>> > oe = oy, like in English "boy"
>> > "c" and "g" = always "k" and "g" without any exception.
>> > ti = always "ti" without any exception.
>> > v = a bilabial fricative (caught between v and w, like in hindi)
>> > qu = kw/kv (like above)
>> >
>> >
>> > If you want to pronounce Latin as the great Romans did, you have to
> adopt that way I have written above.
>> >
>> >
>> > Cura ut valeas!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
>> > R O G A T O R
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
>> > Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
>> > Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
>> > Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
>> > Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>> > Dominus Factionis Russatae
>> > Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus A Tulliae Scholasticae, A Biancho Pio,
omnibusque s.p.d.



IÂ’ve followed this discussion on pronunciation with considerable interest,
particularly as I have always been torn between the two ‘major’
pronunciations – that of the Church in which I was brought up and which I
had to learn to speak as well as understand, and that of academe which, as a
teacher, I have tried to adhere to. Each is understandable easily by the
other.



In favour of the classical pronunciation is the fact that [a] it provides a
standard, and [b] it is agreed by the vast majority of classicists that it
was the pronunciation of the classical age of Cicero et al., and that
therefore it is best to be retained as a norm.



In favour of the ecclesiastical pronunciation, however, is the fact that the
Catholic Church – the only institution in the world to retain Latin as a
norm of communication – has seen the language and its pronunciation develop
over many centuries and even today provides a ‘norm’ of pronunciation which
we would do well not to ignore. This is how Latin, as a living language, has
developed in the one place that has retained and fostered it for so many
years.



Were the two pronunciations to be mutually incomprehensible, there would be
a problem. However, they are not. In my opinion, therefore, either is
perfectly acceptable as a norm.



Any living language (and surely this is what we above all want Latin to
become again) usually has an ‘official’ pronunciation and many regional or
even individual dialects. Just as English has the RP pronunciation
(sometimes called ‘BBC English’) and Arabic has ‘standard Arabic’, etc., so
Latin will have its variations, with the Spanish pronouncing C as TH, and
the Germans pronouncing it as TS. This does not make it unintelligible: it
merely gives the language colour and variety. To insist on one rigid norm is
to fossilise and stultify what should be a vibrant and living language.



Valete optime!



_____

From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of A. Tullia Scholastica
Sent: 21 April 2007 07:01
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latin pronunciation (and that of Greek)

> A. Tullia Scholastica A. Bianchio Pio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque

bonae

> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> Salve Cornelius Lentulus et alius,
>
> The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that your
> predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules.
>
> Actually, he is predicating it upon the findings of classical philology.
> This is the standard pronunciation of Latin, and, insofar as we are able

to

> determine, the one the Romans used.
>
>
> The "G" in
> Greek is always hard, there is no "K"
>
> Last I checked, kappa was part of the Greek alphabet, and double gamma was
> a velar nasal. Koppa, a different, Q-like letter, also existed, at least

in

> dialects.
>
>
> [the Latins did not adopt the
> "K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter was
> not identical],
>
> Latin has both C and K, although the latter is rare. The Latin alphabet
> was derived from the West Greek one; the Greek alphabet was derived from

the

> East Greek one, which replaced the original Old Attic alphabet after the
> Peloponnesian War, c. 403 BC. Different areas retained different

alphabets,

> too...
>
> and there is no "V".
>
> In modern Greek, beta is pronounced as English v, and in early Greek, the
> digamma was still around, pronounced like English w. Traces of it remain

in

> Homer, and it remains in various dialects for centuries afterward. In

Doric,

> it was represented by beta, which, as my text on Greek dialects (Buck)
> observes, has to be understood as having the modern Greek spirant
> pronunciation, English v.
>
>
> The idea of Latin being a little
> softer than Greek in pronunciation, and with more vowel-consonant
> balance keeps with the Roman love of harmony
>
> The Greeks were quite fond of harmony...
>
>
> and comprehends many of
> the changes which Latin instituted; for example the adding for the
> consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition of
> "V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical save
> for the consonant],
>
> I am not a historical linguist, but I seriously doubt that letters were
> added to huios to make it into filius, and it is also possible that

hesperos

> was wesperos at some point, at least in the parent language. Liddell,

Scott,

> and Jones, the Greek unabridged dictionary, gives among the many possible
> forms of huios one from an inscription, whios, from Nemea, and the OLD

gives

> feliuf as the Umbrian version of filius.
>
>
>
>
> there are other examples I could use, but these
> will suffice for now.
>
>
>
>
> There is also the long history of Ecclesiastical pronunciation, whose
> lexicon began with first century. St. Augustine comments on how few
> Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
> difference between "U" and "V".
>
> By then, there probably was. Not many Latin words begin with K, or B, for
> that matter, and some other initial letters are comparatively rare.
>
>
> Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
> pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of Italian
> and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
> pronunciation.
>
> Lentulus has not provided his version of Latin pronunciation, but that of
> classical scholars the world over. He is a graduate student in classical
> philology, and an excellent Latinist, the newly reelected head of the

group

> containing the most competent Latinists in the Sodalitas Latinitatis. He
> knows what he is talking about. Rest assured that these scholars have

taken

> the development of French and Italian into account, and that of the other
> Romance languages, when they worked on the reconstruction of the classical
> Latin pronunciation, the one most scholars outside of Italy use today.

This

> is the pronunciation taught by our own A. Gratius Avitus, a world-famous
> Latinist, and by virtually every other academic in the field. It may be
> uncomfortable for some people to hear that classical Latin was not

pronounced

> like, say, Italian, but that is what our research proves to us. This is

not

> Lentulus¹ opinion, or mine, but that of academia as a whole.
>
>
>
> Valete,
> Aulus Blanchius Pius
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
> --- In HYPERLINK

"mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com"Nova-Roma@...
<mailto:Nova--Roma%40yahoogrou-ps.com> , Gnaeus

> Cornelius Lentulus
> <cn_corn_lent@-...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Cn. Lentulus Q. Valerio sal.:
>> >
>> > Your pronunciation, Quinte Valeri, is very similar to the Latin
> pronunciation of the 4th-5th cetury CE. In those times:
>> >
>> > ci = was "kyi" or "tyi" and was developing to "chi" at the 5th-6th
> century.
>> > gi = was "gyi" or "dyi", similarly developing to "ji" (J- like in
> John).
>> > tia, tie, tii, tio, tiu = were "tsia", "tsie" etc..
>> > ae, oe = were "e", like in English "men".
>> >
>> > So your method is similar to that, but what you use exactly was
> never existed as a Latin pronunciation.
>> >
>> > The classical Latin pronunciation, the pronunciation from the 2th
> century BC to 2th century CE was as follows:
>> >
>> > ae = ay like in English "why", "I"...
>> > oe = oy, like in English "boy"
>> > "c" and "g" = always "k" and "g" without any exception.
>> > ti = always "ti" without any exception.
>> > v = a bilabial fricative (caught between v and w, like in hindi)
>> > qu = kw/kv (like above)
>> >
>> >
>> > If you want to pronounce Latin as the great Romans did, you have to
> adopt that way I have written above.
>> >
>> >
>> > Cura ut valeas!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
>> > R O G A T O R
>> > ----------------------------------
>> > Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
>> > Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
>> > Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
>> > Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
>> > Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
>> > ----------------------------------
>> > Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>> > Dominus Factionis Russatae
>> > Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> A. Tullia Scholastica amico Sexto Pontio Pilato Barbato quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Good to see you back here!
>
> Sextus Pontius Pilatus Barbatus A Tulliae Scholasticae, A Biancho Pio,
> omnibusque s.p.d.
>
> I’ve followed this discussion on pronunciation with considerable interest,
> particularly as I have always been torn between the two ‘major’
> pronunciations ­ that of the Church in which I was brought up and which I
> had to learn to speak as well as understand, and that of academe which, as a
> teacher, I have tried to adhere to. Each is understandable easily by the
> other.
>
> Indeed they are. And some of us switch from one to the other, as I did.
>
> In favour of the classical pronunciation is the fact that [a] it provides a
> standard, and [b] it is agreed by the vast majority of classicists that it
> was the pronunciation of the classical age of Cicero et al., and that
> therefore it is best to be retained as a norm.
>
> Yes.
>
> In favour of the ecclesiastical pronunciation, however, is the fact that the
> Catholic Church ­ the only institution in the world to retain Latin as a
> norm of communication ­ has seen the language and its pronunciation develop
> over many centuries and even today provides a ‘norm’ of pronunciation which
> we would do well not to ignore. This is how Latin, as a living language, has
> developed in the one place that has retained and fostered it for so many
> years.
>
> That is also true...and some of us learnt our love of Latin in the arms of
> the RC church.
>
> Were the two pronunciations to be mutually incomprehensible, there would be
> a problem. However, they are not. In my opinion, therefore, either is
> perfectly acceptable as a norm.
>
> Indeed they are.
>
> Any living language (and surely this is what we above all want Latin to
> become again) usually has an ‘official’ pronunciation and many regional or
> even individual dialects. Just as English has the RP pronunciation
> (sometimes called ‘BBC English’) and Arabic has ‘standard Arabic’, etc., so
> Latin will have its variations, with the Spanish pronouncing C as TH, and
> the Germans pronouncing it as TS. This does not make it unintelligible: it
> merely gives the language colour and variety. To insist on one rigid norm is
> to fossilise and stultify what should be a vibrant and living language.
>
> Latin is on its way to that, between the GLL where some of the Latinitas
> members spend all of their Latin writing efforts instead of spreading them out
> on the sodalitas list (hint, hint) and Parva’s Skype project as well as the
> Circuli Latini. This is all the more reason why we must be intelligible to
> one another, and to learners, but both the reconstructed pronunciation and the
> Italian one are perfectly acceptable...and, by the way, I believe that Astur
> did NOT pronounce c as th when we were speaking Latin at Conventus last year,
> though he is indeed a Spaniard. After a year of Avitus, he may have been
> cured of any tendencies in that direction (not to mention that Avitus is also
> a Spaniard...). These national speech habits can be suppressed, if not
> totally eliminated; it is difficult for us English speakers to deaspirate the
> mute stops (make that: almost impossible), but this habit merely makes us
> sound barbaric to those whose languages can distinguish between aspirated and
> deaspirated mutes; it does not make us incomprehensible. Most of us from
> almost any country other than Finland and Hungary are sloppy about vowel
> length, but that can be learnt, too; we just have to work on it. We must make
> the effort. Some accent is almost unavoidable, but we cannot pronounce Latin
> as English or German or what have you and expect to be understood. Therein
> lies the difference.
>
> Valete optime!
>
> Et tu!
>
> _____
>
> From: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf
> Of A. Tullia Scholastica
> Sent: 21 April 2007 07:01
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latin pronunciation (and that of Greek)
>
>> > A. Tullia Scholastica A. Bianchio Pio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae
>> > voluntatis S.P.D.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Salve Cornelius Lentulus et alius,
>> >
>> > The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that your
>> > predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules.
>> >
>> > Actually, he is predicating it upon the findings of classical philology.
>> > This is the standard pronunciation of Latin, and, insofar as we are able
> to
>> > determine, the one the Romans used.
>> >
>> >
>> > The "G" in
>> > Greek is always hard, there is no "K"
>> >
>> > Last I checked, kappa was part of the Greek alphabet, and double gamma was
>> > a velar nasal. Koppa, a different, Q-like letter, also existed, at least
> in
>> > dialects.
>> >
>> >
>> > [the Latins did not adopt the
>> > "K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter was
>> > not identical],
>> >
>> > Latin has both C and K, although the latter is rare. The Latin alphabet
>> > was derived from the West Greek one; the Greek alphabet was derived from
> the
>> > East Greek one, which replaced the original Old Attic alphabet after the
>> > Peloponnesian War, c. 403 BC. Different areas retained different
> alphabets,
>> > too...
>> >
>> > and there is no "V".
>> >
>> > In modern Greek, beta is pronounced as English v, and in early Greek, the
>> > digamma was still around, pronounced like English w. Traces of it remain
> in
>> > Homer, and it remains in various dialects for centuries afterward. In
> Doric,
>> > it was represented by beta, which, as my text on Greek dialects (Buck)
>> > observes, has to be understood as having the modern Greek spirant
>> > pronunciation, English v.
>> >
>> >
>> > The idea of Latin being a little
>> > softer than Greek in pronunciation, and with more vowel-consonant
>> > balance keeps with the Roman love of harmony
>> >
>> > The Greeks were quite fond of harmony...
>> >
>> >
>> > and comprehends many of
>> > the changes which Latin instituted; for example the adding for the
>> > consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition of
>> > "V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical save
>> > for the consonant],
>> >
>> > I am not a historical linguist, but I seriously doubt that letters were
>> > added to huios to make it into filius, and it is also possible that
> hesperos
>> > was wesperos at some point, at least in the parent language. Liddell,
> Scott,
>> > and Jones, the Greek unabridged dictionary, gives among the many possible
>> > forms of huios one from an inscription, whios, from Nemea, and the OLD
> gives
>> > feliuf as the Umbrian version of filius.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > there are other examples I could use, but these
>> > will suffice for now.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > There is also the long history of Ecclesiastical pronunciation, whose
>> > lexicon began with first century. St. Augustine comments on how few
>> > Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
>> > difference between "U" and "V".
>> >
>> > By then, there probably was. Not many Latin words begin with K, or B, for
>> > that matter, and some other initial letters are comparatively rare.
>> >
>> >
>> > Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
>> > pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of Italian
>> > and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
>> > pronunciation.
>> >
>> > Lentulus has not provided his version of Latin pronunciation, but that of
>> > classical scholars the world over. He is a graduate student in classical
>> > philology, and an excellent Latinist, the newly reelected head of the
> group
>> > containing the most competent Latinists in the Sodalitas Latinitatis. He
>> > knows what he is talking about. Rest assured that these scholars have
> taken
>> > the development of French and Italian into account, and that of the other
>> > Romance languages, when they worked on the reconstruction of the classical
>> > Latin pronunciation, the one most scholars outside of Italy use today.
> This
>> > is the pronunciation taught by our own A. Gratius Avitus, a world-famous
>> > Latinist, and by virtually every other academic in the field. It may be
>> > uncomfortable for some people to hear that classical Latin was not
> pronounced
>> > like, say, Italian, but that is what our research proves to us. This is
> not
>> > Lentulus¹ opinion, or mine, but that of academia as a whole.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Valete,
>> > Aulus Blanchius Pius
>> >
>> > Vale, et valete.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In HYPERLINK
> "mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com"Nova-Roma@...
> <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogrou-ps.com>
> <mailto:Nova--Roma%40yahoogrou-ps.com> , Gnaeus
>> > Cornelius Lentulus
>> > <cn_corn_lent@-...> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Cn. Lentulus Q. Valerio sal.:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Your pronunciation, Quinte Valeri, is very similar to the Latin
>> > pronunciation of the 4th-5th cetury CE. In those times:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ci = was "kyi" or "tyi" and was developing to "chi" at the 5th-6th
>> > century.
>>>> >> > gi = was "gyi" or "dyi", similarly developing to "ji" (J- like in
>> > John).
>>>> >> > tia, tie, tii, tio, tiu = were "tsia", "tsie" etc..
>>>> >> > ae, oe = were "e", like in English "men".
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > So your method is similar to that, but what you use exactly was
>> > never existed as a Latin pronunciation.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > The classical Latin pronunciation, the pronunciation from the 2th
>> > century BC to 2th century CE was as follows:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ae = ay like in English "why", "I"...
>>>> >> > oe = oy, like in English "boy"
>>>> >> > "c" and "g" = always "k" and "g" without any exception.
>>>> >> > ti = always "ti" without any exception.
>>>> >> > v = a bilabial fricative (caught between v and w, like in hindi)
>>>> >> > qu = kw/kv (like above)
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > If you want to pronounce Latin as the great Romans did, you have to
>> > adopt that way I have written above.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Cura ut valeas!
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
>>>> >> > R O G A T O R
>>>> >> > ----------------------------------
>>>> >> > Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
>>>> >> > Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
>>>> >> > Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
>>>> >> > Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
>>>> >> > Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
>>>> >> > ----------------------------------
>>>> >> > Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>>>> >> > Dominus Factionis Russatae
>>>> >> > Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>>>> >> >
>> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.5/769 - Release Date: 19/04/2007
> 17:56

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:

> A. Tullia Scholastica amico Sexto Pontio Pilato Barbato quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.

Salve, A. Tullia Scholastica.

Could you please make an effort to learn how to write e-mail? I am sure
you have heard these concerns before, but I will not hesitate to repeat
them.

Whenever you respond to e-mail, you fail to remove the citation marks
before the lines you type yourself. That means there is no visible means
of determining what you have typed and what you are responding to.
Previously, you wrote "ATS:" before anything you wrote, which somewhat
helped but still was most illegible. Now, you have stopped doing even that.

Moreover, your last e-mail, the one I'm responding to and citing the
first line of at the top of this e-mail, appeared in my mail program in
a very odd font. Upon further investigation, this appeared due to you
using a very obscure charset:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR

That is, Korean.

May I ask you to use plain ASCII, ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8? We correspond in
English, and I'd rather not have to setup my mail program for any given
charset someone finds fitting to use that particular day.

As an aside, did you notice the amount of old mails quoted in your
current discussion? There is some merit in cutting down on that; I, and
many others, including Yahoo, save the entire thread, and don't need it
in its entirety included in every post of it.

Thank you for showing some consideration.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

> A. Tullia Scholastica T. Octavio Pio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
>
>
> A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:
>> > A. Tullia Scholastica amico Sexto Pontio Pilato Barbato quiritibus, sociis,
>> > peregrinisque bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Salve, A. Tullia Scholastica.
>
> Could you please make an effort to learn how to write e-mail? I am sure
> you have heard these concerns before, but I will not hesitate to repeat
> them.
>
> ATS: I did that some time ago.
>
> Whenever you respond to e-mail, you fail to remove the citation marks
> before the lines you type yourself.
>
> ATS: No such marks appear in my text. They are put there by Yahoo. I
> have no control over this, sorry to say.
>
>
> That means there is no visible means
> of determining what you have typed and what you are responding to.
> Previously, you wrote "ATS:" before anything you wrote, which somewhat
> helped but still was most illegible. Now, you have stopped doing even that.
>
> ATS: I have stopped doing this in certain instances, since quotations
> have been misused.
>
> Moreover, your last e-mail, the one I'm responding to and citing the
> first line of at the top of this e-mail, appeared in my mail program in
> a very odd font. Upon further investigation, this appeared due to you
> using a very obscure charset:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR
>
> That is, Korean.
>
> ATS: What? I don¹t know Korean, though I have Korean neighbors who
> presumably do.
>
>
> May I ask you to use plain ASCII, ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8? We correspond in
> English, and I'd rather not have to setup my mail program for any given
> charset someone finds fitting to use that particular day.
>
> ATS: I assure you that I did not deliberately use Korean; my outgoing mail
> is set for UTF-8 as a default. Again, if Yahoo, or the joys of assorted
> servers, changed this somehow, I have absolutely no control over it. I do use
> UTF-8, with Times font, with SPIonic Greek font, and with another Greek font
> which came with my OS, and rarely use QWERTY Devanagari to write (sort of)
> Sanskrit, but Korean (Chinese, Japanese, Thai...) are not on my linguistic
> menu. I don¹t know any of the above, except for words borrowed into English
> and what I learned about these tongues in linguistics class and through other
> reading.
>
> As an aside, did you notice the amount of old mails quoted in your
> current discussion? There is some merit in cutting down on that; I, and
> many others, including Yahoo, save the entire thread, and don't need it
> in its entirety included in every post of it.
>
> ATS: Yes, snipping is often a good thing. So, too, is avoiding the
> vulgar language and crude commentary which has been posted here of late, along
> with temper tantrums and other inappropriate behavior. We have no moderation
> edictum because Cato refuses to accept one with any meat on its bones, so such
> things are bound to happen.
>
> Given that Yahoo loses posts now and again, however, there are times when
> someone¹s quote of a post is the only one I at least see...
>
> Thank you for showing some consideration.
>
> ATS: I have been doing that all along. One should not make unwarranted
> assumptions, such as that I write in Korean or that I see invisible pointy
> brackets in my posts. There are none in this one as I write, but perhaps they
> will appear when this lands on the ML. They are quite annoying, but, as you
> say, they can serve to distinguish speakers, though by the time there are
> several copies of them in front of every line, it becomes rather difficult to
> do even that, especially when someone replies to something and inadvertently
> removes one or more brackets, thus making it more troublesome to identify the
> speaker/writer.
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
>
> Vale, et valete.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

In response to A. Tullia Scholastica but also continuing the train of
conversation.
I have also studied Latin and Greek and am familiar with that
particular opinion of academia; and I disagree with it.

The Romans had two main linguistic influences, Greek from the south
[Grecia Magna], and the Celts [and later Germans] from the north. Now
Greek has no "sliding" consonant, but Gaelic and German are full of
them; so I see no reason to doubt that Latin would have picked up
a "ch" sound for their soft C and a "g" like that of the soft G in
English for their soft G, those would be sounds they were familiar
with. This in the same way the aspirated "X" never seems to have made
it into Latin, perhaps because it wasn't a sound they had much
contact with, and so never made it into their lexicon [though
the "CH" does exist as a translation for the Greek "X"], I've never
read/heard of it being pronounced as an aspirated consonant.

I am also of firm opinion that the Romans made sure their Latin had
rules of proninciation and grammar distinct from Greek. The "luxuria
Graeca" was scorned by many Roman reformists and the fact that Latin
never picked up accents, and yet retained a series of subtle rules
for pronunciation I rather liken to how Englsh was deeply influenced
by French, yet made sure to keep its own character...and avoid having
any accents even with its quirks in pronunciation. Obviously the
parallel is not direct, but history tends to repeat itself.

Valete bene,
A Blanchius Pius
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Tullia Scholastica"
<fororom@...> wrote:

>
> > A. Tullia Scholastica A. Bianchio Pio quiritibus, sociis,

peregrinisque bonae

> > voluntatis S.P.D.
> >
> >
> >
> > Salve Cornelius Lentulus et alius,
> >
> > The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that

your

> > predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules.
> >
> > Actually, he is predicating it upon the findings of classical

philology.

> > This is the standard pronunciation of Latin, and, insofar as we

are able to

> > determine, the one the Romans used.
> >
> >
> > The "G" in
> > Greek is always hard, there is no "K"
> >
> > Last I checked, kappa was part of the Greek alphabet, and

double gamma was

> > a velar nasal. Koppa, a different, Q-like letter, also existed,

at least in

> > dialects.
> >
> >
> > [the Latins did not adopt the
> > "K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter

was

> > not identical],
> >
> > Latin has both C and K, although the latter is rare. The

Latin alphabet

> > was derived from the West Greek one; the Greek alphabet was

derived from the

> > East Greek one, which replaced the original Old Attic alphabet

after the

> > Peloponnesian War, c. 403 BC. Different areas retained different

alphabets,

> > too...
> >
> > and there is no "V".
> >
> > In modern Greek, beta is pronounced as English v, and in

early Greek, the

> > digamma was still around, pronounced like English w. Traces of

it remain in

> > Homer, and it remains in various dialects for centuries

afterward. In Doric,

> > it was represented by beta, which, as my text on Greek dialects

(Buck)

> > observes, has to be understood as having the modern Greek spirant
> > pronunciation, English v.
> >
> >
> > The idea of Latin being a little
> > softer than Greek in pronunciation, and with more vowel-consonant
> > balance keeps with the Roman love of harmony
> >
> > The Greeks were quite fond of harmony...
> >
> >
> > and comprehends many of
> > the changes which Latin instituted; for example the adding for the
> > consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition

of

> > "V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical

save

> > for the consonant],
> >
> > I am not a historical linguist, but I seriously doubt that

letters were

> > added to huios to make it into filius, and it is also possible

that hesperos

> > was wesperos at some point, at least in the parent language.

Liddell, Scott,

> > and Jones, the Greek unabridged dictionary, gives among the many

possible

> > forms of huios one from an inscription, whios, from Nemea, and

the OLD gives

> > feliuf as the Umbrian version of filius.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > there are other examples I could use, but these
> > will suffice for now.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is also the long history of Ecclesiastical pronunciation,

whose

> > lexicon began with first century. St. Augustine comments on how

few

> > Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
> > difference between "U" and "V".
> >
> > By then, there probably was. Not many Latin words begin with

K, or B, for

> > that matter, and some other initial letters are comparatively

rare.

> >
> >
> > Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
> > pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of

Italian

> > and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
> > pronunciation.
> >
> > Lentulus has not provided his version of Latin pronunciation,

but that of

> > classical scholars the world over. He is a graduate student in

classical

> > philology, and an excellent Latinist, the newly reelected head of

the group

> > containing the most competent Latinists in the Sodalitas

Latinitatis. He

> > knows what he is talking about. Rest assured that these scholars

have taken

> > the development of French and Italian into account, and that of

the other

> > Romance languages, when they worked on the reconstruction of the

classical

> > Latin pronunciation, the one most scholars outside of Italy use

today. This

> > is the pronunciation taught by our own A. Gratius Avitus, a world-

famous

> > Latinist, and by virtually every other academic in the field. It

may be

> > uncomfortable for some people to hear that classical Latin was

not pronounced

> > like, say, Italian, but that is what our research proves to us.

This is not

> > Lentulus¹ opinion, or mine, but that of academia as a whole.
> >
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> > Aulus Blanchius Pius
> >
> > Vale, et valete.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%

40yahoogroups.com> , Gnaeus

> > Cornelius Lentulus
> > <cn_corn_lent@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Cn. Lentulus Q. Valerio sal.:
> >> >
> >> > Your pronunciation, Quinte Valeri, is very similar to the Latin
> > pronunciation of the 4th-5th cetury CE. In those times:
> >> >
> >> > ci = was "kyi" or "tyi" and was developing to "chi" at the

5th-6th

> > century.
> >> > gi = was "gyi" or "dyi", similarly developing to "ji" (J-

like in

> > John).
> >> > tia, tie, tii, tio, tiu = were "tsia", "tsie" etc..
> >> > ae, oe = were "e", like in English "men".
> >> >
> >> > So your method is similar to that, but what you use exactly

was

> > never existed as a Latin pronunciation.
> >> >
> >> > The classical Latin pronunciation, the pronunciation from

the 2th

> > century BC to 2th century CE was as follows:
> >> >
> >> > ae = ay like in English "why", "I"...
> >> > oe = oy, like in English "boy"
> >> > "c" and "g" = always "k" and "g" without any exception.
> >> > ti = always "ti" without any exception.
> >> > v = a bilabial fricative (caught between v and w, like in

hindi)

> >> > qu = kw/kv (like above)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If you want to pronounce Latin as the great Romans did, you

have to

> > adopt that way I have written above.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cura ut valeas!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> >> > R O G A T O R
> >> > -------------------------------
> >> > Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> >> > Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
> >> > Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
> >> > Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
> >> > Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
> >> > -------------------------------
> >> > Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> >> > Dominus Factionis Russatae
> >> > Latinista, Classicus Philologus
> >> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

does anybody know of any prayers that might have been used by augures or
haruspices (and the like), especially before a battle. And also do we know
of any (somewhat) short prayers made to (Avenging) Mars? I really
appreciate it.

Oh and congratulations to Romulus and Remus, who founded Rome (supposedly)
on this day (April 21st) in the year 753 BC!

Valete,
Chuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:02 PM 4/19/2007, you wrote:

>Salvete
>
>Is anybody a member of or knows anybody who is a member of a Gilbert
>and Sullivan
>preforming group?

Not I, though I have considerable familiarity with their most popular works.
Why do you ask?

L. Aemilius Probus

Lucius Arminius Faustus S.P.D.

Early morning, the autumn sun starts to scorch the land. Bright sun
for a bright day. So, I urge the gods accept this ritual on honour of
the birthday of Rome. As a pagan consul, I couldn´t do less. May the
gods accepts these prayers poorly done by the the devotion of the
consul their auspices allowed. No prayers are more dear to the gods
than the one done the carrier of the auspices of the state.

Having not observed any bad sign on the night of the day before. I ask
the Gods mainly sucess and perenity to our Republic. May the
magistrates learn the love of Rome as the source os all energy to be
put here. May the magistrates recognizes on the auspices the source of
guidance. So, after on my lararium performing the prayers for the
domestic gods (since no auspice public and be taken by a man without
private auspices) I make this:

Praefatio

Iane pater, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae. [Father Ianus,
by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may
be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma.] Incense
is placed in the focus of the altar.

Mars pater, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae. [Father Mars,
by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that you may
be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma.] Incense
is placed in the focus of the altar.

Quirine pater, te hoc ture commovendo bonas preces precor, uti sies
volens propitius mihi et Senatui Populoque Novae Romae. [Father
Quirinus, by offering this incense to you I pray good prayers, so that
you may be propitious to me and the Senate and People of Nova Roma.]
Incense is placed in the focus of the altar.

Iane pater, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto. [Father Ianus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honored by this humble wine.] Libation of wine is
made.

Mars pater, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto. [Father Mars, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honored by this humble wine.] Libation of wine is made.

Quirine pater, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto. [Father Quirinus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honored by this humble wine.] Libation of wine is
made.

Hands are washed in preparation for the praecatio.

Precatio

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, rex Deorum, qui res publicas Novas Romanas
nunc custodit defenditque perinde ac res publicas patrum nostrorum
Romanorum custodivit defenditque, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore
initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda
esto. [Iuppiter Best and Greatest, king of the Gods, who protects and
defends the public affairs of Nova Roma just as he protected and
defended the public affairs of our Roman fathers, to you it is proper
for a cup of wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake
of this thing may you be honored by this feast offering. Libation of
wine is made.

Iuno, regina Deorum, qui materne nunc Senatum Populumque Novae Romae
nutrit perinde ac Senatum Populumque Romanum in tempore partum
nostrorum nutrivit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam
vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto. [Iuno, queen
of the Gods, who maternally nurtures the Senate and People of Nova
Roma just as she nurtured the Senate and People of Rome in the time of
our fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this
time of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honored by
this feast offering]. Libation of wine is made.

Minerva, sapientia aeterna, qui recte res publicas Novas Romanas ducit
perinde ac res publicas patrum nostrorum Romanorum duxit, tibi fieri
oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini dapi, eius rei ergo hac
illace dape pullucenda esto. [Minerva, eternal wisdom, who rightly
guides the public affairs of Nova Roma just as she rightly guided the
public affairs of our Roman fathers, to you it is proper for a cup of
wine to be given in this time of beginning, for the sake of this thing
may you be honored by this feast offering]. Libation of wine is made.

Salus, benefactrix Senatus Populique Romani et fideiussorix salutis
nostrae, qui Novam Romam conservat perinde ac Romam antiquam
conservavit, tibi fieri oportet in hoc tempore initii culignam vini
dapi, eius rei ergo hac illace dape pullucenda esto. [Salus,
benefactor of the Roman Senate and People and guarantor of our
well-being, who preserves Nova Roma just as she preserved ancient
Rome, to you it is proper for a cup of wine to be given in this time
of beginning, for the sake of this thing may you be honored by this
feast offering]. Libation of wine is made.

Hands are washed in preparation for the redditio.

Redditio

Iuppiter Optime Maxime, rex Deorum, macte istace dape pollucenda esto,
macte vino inferio esto. [Iuppiter Best and Greatest, king of the
Gods, may you be honoured by this feast offering, may you be honored
by the humble wine.] Libation of wine is made, and an offering of cake
is made.

Iuno, regina Deorum, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte vino
inferio esto. [Iuno, queen of the Gods, may you be honored by this
feast offering, may you be honored by the humble wine.] Libation of
wine is made, and an offering of cake is made.

Minerva, sapientia aeterna, macte istace dape pollucenda esto, macte
vino inferio esto. [Minerva, eternal wisdom, may you be honored by
this feast offering, may you be honored by the humble wine.] Libation
of wine is made, and an offering of cake is made.

Salus, benefactrix Novae Romae, macte istace dape pollucenda esto,
macte vino inferio esto. [Salus, benefactrix of Nova Roma, may you be
honored by this feast offering, may you be honored by the humble
wine.] Libation of wine is made, and an offering of cake is made.

Quirine pater, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto. [Father Quirinus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honored by this humble wine.] Libation of wine is
made.

Mars pater, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto. [Father Mars, as by offering
to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the sake of
this be honored by this humble wine.] Libation of wine is made.

Iane pater, uti te ture commovendo bonas preces bene precatus sum,
eiusdem rei ergo macte vino inferio esto. [Father Ianus, as by
offering to you the incense virtuous prayers were well prayed, for the
sake of this be honored by this humble wine.] Libation of wine is
made.

Dea Vesta, custos ignis sacri, macte vino inferio esto. [Goddess
Vesta, guardian of the sacred fire, be honoured by this humble wine.]
Libation of wine is made.

Illicet. [It is over.]

At this time I profaned some of the cakes and consumed it. I then made
some personal devotions, and then I reaffirmed my pledge of Love of
all Romanitas and pray for favourable auspices to the endeavours of
this organization. I pray mainly by the magistrates of Nova Roma, may
they all accomplish the reforms they plan.

Piaculum

I concluded with a piaculum to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno,
Miverva, and Salus in the event I might have done anything during the
ceremony that might be displeasing to the Immortals.

Iuppiter Optime Maxmime, Iuno, Minerva et Salus, Di Immortales, si
quidquam tibi in hac caerimonia displicet, hoc vino inferio veniam
peto et vitium meum expio. [Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Iuno, Minerva,
and Salus, Immortal Gods, if anything in this ceremony is displeasing
to you, with this humble wine I ask forgiveness and expiate my fault.]
Libation of wine is made.

May the Immortal Gods of Rome bless Nova Roma and make it everlasting.

Valete bene in pacem deorum,
Lucius Arminius Faustus
Consul

OSD C. equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem X Kalendas Maius; haec dies nefastus est.

"To Autonoe and Aristaios was born a son Aktaion, who was reared by
Kheiron and trained as a huntsman, but was later eaten up on Kithairon
by his own dogs [because] ... he saw Artemis bathing. They say that
the goddess changed him on the spot into a deer, and drove his fifty
hunting dogs into a frenzy so that they unintentionally ate him. When
he was no more, they looked for their master with great howls and
bays." - Apollodorus, The Library 3.30

"Across the Illisos [River] is a district called Agrai and a temple of
Artemis Agrotera (the Huntress). They say that Artemis first hunted
here when she came from Delos, and for this reason the statue carries
a bow." -Pausanias 1.19.6

"Near the statue of Olympiodoros stands a bronze image of Artemis
surnamed Leukophryne, dedicated by the sons of Themistocles; for the
Magnesians, whose city the King had given him to rule, hold Artemis
Leukophryne in honor." -Pausanias 1.26.4

"The whole country [of Elis] is full of temples of Artemis, Aphrodite,
and the Nymphai, being situated in sacred precincts that are generally
full of flowers because of the abundance of water." -Strabo 8.3.12

"All cities worship Artemis Ephesia (of Ephesus), and individuals hold
her in honor above all the gods. The reason, in my view, is the renown
of the Amazones, who traditionally dedicated the image, also the
extreme antiquity of this sanctuary. Three other points as well have
contributed to her renown, the size of the temple, surpassing all
buildings among men, the eminence of the city of the Ephesians and the
renown of the goddess who dwells there." -Pausanias 4.31.7

"Artemis, slayer of wild beasts, daughter of Zeus, for whom Agamemnon
set up a temple when he was preparing to sail on his swift ships to
Troy, give ear to my prayers and ward off the evil Keres (Death-
Spirits). For you, goddess, this is no small thing, but for me it is
critical." – Theognis 1.11

"About a stade distant from Kaphye is a place called Kondylea, where
there are a grove and a temple of Artemis called of old Kondyleatis.
They say that the name of the goddess was changed for the following
reason. Some children, the number of whom is not recorded, while
playing about the sanctuary found a rope, and tying it round the neck
of the image said that Artemis was being strangled. The Kaphyans,
detecting what the children had done, stoned them to death. When they
had done this, a malady befell their women, whose babies were
stillborn, until the Pythian priestess bade them bury the children,
and sacrifice to them every year as sacrifice is made to heroes,
because they had been wrongly put to death. The Kaphyans still obey
this oracle, and call the goddess at Kondyleai, as they say the oracle
also bade them, Apankhomene (the Strangled Lady) from that day to
this." -Pausanias 8.23.6


Today is the Ephabolia, a celebration held in honor of Artemis.
Artemis was the virgin goddess of the hunt, wild animals, wilderness,
and childbirth. She was worshipped as a fertility/childbirth goddess
in some places since, according to some myths, she assisted her mother
in the delivery of her twin. During the Classical period in Athens,
she was identified with Hecate. Artemis also assimilated Caryatis
(Carya) and Ilithyia. Artemis was worshipped almost everywhere in
Greece, but her most well known cults were in Brauron, Mounikhia
(located on a hill near the port Piraeus), and Sparta.

In Asia Minor, a goddess identified with Artemis was a principal
deity. The city of Ephesus is probably the best known of the Asian
centers of her worship, from the story in the Acts of the Apostles,
where the Ephesian metalsmiths who feel threatened by Paul's preaching
of the new faith, zealously riot in her defense, shouting "Great is
Artemis of the Ephesians!" (Acts 19:28 KJV)

Festivals in honor of Artemis include Elaphebolia, Mounikhia,
Kharisteria, Brauronia, and the festival of Artemis Orthia in Sparta.

Young Athenian girls between the ages of five and ten were sent to the
sanctuary of Artemis at Brauron to serve the Goddess for one year.
During this time the girls were known as arktoi, or little she-bears.
A myth explaining this servitude relates that a bear had gotten into
the habit of regularly visiting the town of Brauron, and the people
there fed it, so that over time the bear became tame. A young girl
teased the bear, and, in some versions of the myth it killed her,
while in other versions it clawed her eyes out. Either way, the girl's
brothers killed the bear, and Artemis was enraged. She demanded that
young girls "act the bear" at her sanctuary in atonement for the
bear's death.

In many parts of ancient Greece, just before marriage young women
would dedicate toys, dolls, and locks of their hair to Artemis.

Artemis has her direct counterpart in the Roman Diana. Diana was the
perpetually virginal huntress goddess, associated with wild animals
and woodlands. She also later became a moon goddess, supplanting Luna,
and was an emblem of chastity. Oak groves were especially sacred to
her. She was praised for her strength, athletic grace, beauty and
hunting skill. She made up a trinity with two other Roman deities:
Egeria the water nymph, her servant and assistant midwife; and
Virbius, the woodland god.

Diana was worshipped in a temple on the Aventine Hill and at the city
of Ephesus, where the Temple of Artemis stood. Being placed on the
Aventine, and thus outside the pomerium, meant that Diana's cult
essentially remained a "foreign" one, like that of Bacchus; she was
never officially "transferred" to Rome as Juno was after the sack of
Veii. It seems that her cult originated in Aricia, where her priest,
the Rex Nemorensis remained. Diana was regarded with great reverence
by lower-class citizens and slaves; slaves could receive asylum in her
temples. She was worshipped at a festival on August 13, when King
Servius Tullius, himself born a slave, dedicated her shrine on the
Aventine.

Diana is usually depicted with a deer. This is because Diana was the
patroness of hunting, and also because she is said to have transformed
a man she found spying on her while taking a bath into a deer when he
tried to flee her.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Apollodorus, Pausanius, Strabo, Wikipedia

Salvete quirites,

Tot capitae, tot sententiae,
(Each head, each opinion)

Never before I felt how true this saying could be. I myself have the
opinion whatever speech and sounds you may choose (actually, it is
question of choosing one, since there is many hints, but no truth
about) you must be coherent with it in all readings, so the listeners
can identify what you are saying.

Again, on a civilization of X centuries that spread across so many
places, the diferences of latin should be awesome across time and
distance. So I wonder almost 10 different languages were generated by
latin. I do not recall if a language had had so many off-springs
(except perhaps old Indo-european of Babel Tower)

--
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus

"Vigilando, agendo, bene consulendo, prospera omnia cedunt" - Salustius


2007/4/21, Gregory Seeley <necromantior@...>:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> In response to A. Tullia Scholastica but also continuing the train of
> conversation.
> I have also studied Latin and Greek and am familiar with that
> particular opinion of academia; and I disagree with it.
>

Salvete omnes civibus

Consul Tiberius Galerius Paulinus has called the Senate into session with the following message:

Senator L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur having conducted the auspices as I requested and having reporting them as "'Aves Admittunt' addictiva (favorable)" I am convening the Senate on a.d. VIII Kal. Mai (April 24 2760 AU.C) when the contio will commence until a.d. IV Kal. Mai. ( April 28, 2760 A.U.C.) when it will end. Voting will then commence and will end on pr. Kal. Mai. (April 30, 2760 A.U.C) .

Once debate has concluded Senators will send their votes to the Senate list where the results will be tabulated and the Tribunes will report the results to the people of Nova Roma in accordance with our laws and customs.

I will post an agenda after my colleague has had some time to weigh in on the draft.


Valete:

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete,

Today I have closed the old discussion group AmBorWaves (that is to say, I have
unsubscribed everyone, including myself, just about the only option I had as a moderator).
This may be overly presumptious of me, however, the original list owner disappeared years
ago and the list has been virtually without activity for at least the same amount of time.

Should new leadership step forward for NovaRomani living in the Pacific Northwest, that
individual should be allowed to create a new list to which he or she has ownership rights.

valete.

Julilla Sempronia Magna

Does anybody know of any prayers that might have been used by augures
or haruspices (and the like), especially before a battle. And also do
we know of any (somewhat) short prayers made to (Avenging) Mars? I
really appreciate it.

Oh and congratulations to Romulus and Remus, I know that April 21st is
a very special day in both of their lives, as it is in all of ours!


Valete,
Chuck

Enjoy these daily prayers.
Robin Marquardt


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes,

personally I am not in agreement with the Item Annual Senatorial fee .

Special Taxes for the senatorial class? and later? Special Taxes for all those that voluntarily make an effort so that Nova Roma works?

Valete bene

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima

----- Original Message -----
From: M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com ; ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: The proposed agenda for the APRIL Senate meeting.


Salvete omnes civibus

The COnsul Galerius Pauilinus has proposed the following agenda for the April Senate meeting:

Item I The US State of Nevada is separated in to its own province.
The new province shall be called Nivosa

Item II Appointment of a Propraetor of California ( CA and HA)

Marcus Martianus Gangalius is appointed Propraetor of California

Item III

L. Iunius Bassus is appointed Propraetor of California

Item IV

The Province of Mediatlantica is reconfigured as follows

Province of Mediatlantica will consist of the following
US States

Maryland
Delaware
Washington, DC
Virginia

Province of Nova Eborica will consist of
New York State

Province of Pennsylvania
will consist of the US Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

Item IV Discussion

Senator Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus has made a suggestion that I believe has merit and one I support. That of making the election officials appointed and not elected.

Question:

Does the Senate believe that the it would be advisable to have the diribitors' and the custodes as appointed officers instead of as elected officials.

The idea is to have them nominated by the Consuls for staggered terms of two years, approved by the Senate and under the supervision of the Censores.

Item Annual Senatorial fee

The Senate being the supreme policy-making authority for Nova Roma and serving as the repository of experience and wisdom in the affairs of State, the Senate sets an annual fee on the members of the Senate in the amount of _______. We do this to set the example for other Nova Romans to follow and to insure a minimum income for the state. The Senatorial fee is on top of any taxes imposed on all citizens or paid by a member of the Senate..

Failure to pay the Annual Senatorial fee shall result in ___________________

Valete

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete omnes civibus

The COnsul Galerius Pauilinus has proposed the following agenda for the April Senate meeting:

Item I The US State of Nevada is separated in to its own province.
The new province shall be called Nivosa

Item II Appointment of a Propraetor of California ( CA and HA)

Marcus Martianus Gangalius is appointed Propraetor of California

Item III

L. Iunius Bassus is appointed Propraetor of California

Item IV

The Province of Mediatlantica is reconfigured as follows

Province of Mediatlantica will consist of the following
US States

Maryland
Delaware
Washington, DC
Virginia

Province of Nova Eborica will consist of
New York State

Province of Pennsylvania
will consist of the US Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

Item IV Discussion

Senator Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus has made a suggestion that I believe has merit and one I support. That of making the election officials appointed and not elected.

Question:

Does the Senate believe that the it would be advisable to have the diribitors' and the custodes as appointed officers instead of as elected officials.

The idea is to have them nominated by the Consuls for staggered terms of two years, approved by the Senate and under the supervision of the Censores.

Item Annual Senatorial fee

The Senate being the supreme policy-making authority for Nova Roma and serving as the repository of experience and wisdom in the affairs of State, the Senate sets an annual fee on the members of the Senate in the amount of _______. We do this to set the example for other Nova Romans to follow and to insure a minimum income for the state. The Senatorial fee is on top of any taxes imposed on all citizens or paid by a member of the Senate..

Failure to pay the Annual Senatorial fee shall result in ___________________

Valete

M·CVRIATIVS·COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
NOVA ROMA

-------------------------------------------

ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What happens to New Jersey in this plan?

On 4/22/07, M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
>
> Item IV
>
> The Province of Mediatlantica is reconfigured as follows
>
> Province of Mediatlantica will consist of the following
> US States
>
> Maryland
> Delaware
> Washington, DC
> Virginia
>
> Province of Nova Eborica will consist of
> New York State
>
> Province of Pennsylvania
> will consist of the US Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-Salvete:
I live in north, North Carolina & it's easier for me to get to
Virginia than Tennessee, trains etc....I could get to Mediatlantica
as opposed to Orientalis - not at all....I think you should ask the
cives & think regions & not just state boundaries. For sure I want
to meet & mix with other Nova Romans.
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
> What happens to New Jersey in this plan?
>
>
> On 4/22/07, M·CVR·COMPLVTENSIS <complutensis@...> wrote:
> >
> > Item IV
> >
> > The Province of Mediatlantica is reconfigured as follows
> >
> > Province of Mediatlantica will consist of the following
> > US States
> >
> > Maryland
> > Delaware
> > Washington, DC
> > Virginia
> >
> > Province of Nova Eborica will consist of
> > New York State
> >
> > Province of Pennsylvania
> > will consist of the US Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I was having an interesting discussion with my friend G.
Fabius Buteo Modianus about modern witchcraft & the phenomena
of 'JewWitches'[being Jewish] & found this really fascinating link;
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/witches.html

about ancient witches & witchcraft in Judaea, it's scholarly with
footnotes, so there is excellent information. I've also added books on
magic and witchcraft in Ancient Rome & the Empire to the cultus deorum
booklist at the NRwiki;
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
I'm just returning to the source;-)
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

Witchcraft in Palestine would have been a very different concept than in Rome - I'd be startled if Rome actually distinguished a concept of witchcraft. I'm sure there were crazy old women, and men, who could tell fortunes, but not a concept of something criminal. The great mother goddess and primitive magic were both part of the milieu.

The people of Judea did actually have some sort of concept of a witch, because in their patriarchal culture that assigned all supernatural power to one god, a woman who claimed to interact with the supernatural in any way was abrogating the powers of God. The notion evolved along with their struggle against polytheism, particularly anything associated with the great mother goddess and nature religion.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@...

----- Original Message -----
From: Maior
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] witchcraft & the ancient world


M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I was having an interesting discussion with my friend G.
Fabius Buteo Modianus about modern witchcraft & the phenomena
of 'JewWitches'[being Jewish] & found this really fascinating link;
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/witches.html

about ancient witches & witchcraft in Judaea, it's scholarly with
footnotes, so there is excellent information. I've also added books on
magic and witchcraft in Ancient Rome & the Empire to the cultus deorum
booklist at the NRwiki;
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
I'm just returning to the source;-)
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior




----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.465 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fl. Galerius M. Curiatio sal.

Perhaps this proposal for a special donative by the Senate and Conscript
Fathers to the Res Publica is a gesture of solidarity to encourage the citizens
to pay their voluntary annual taxes. I am sure that the members of the
Senate will clarify their reasoning in good time before the matter comes to a vote
in the Senate. Just as I am sure that your and I (along with our
colleagues) will insure that no consultum by the Senators and Conscript Fathers will in
anyway be in opposition to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and
Leges of Nova Roma.

Vale.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-Salve Doris;
Though officially it was frowned upon witchcraft and magic was
actively practiced all over the Roman world: in Egypt, Greece, Rome,
Judaea etc.. There are many words in Greek & a few in Latin to
describe a witch, magus, a necromancer & what they did. You'd really
like the books on the cultus deorum reading list.

The neo-Pythagoreans of the late Republic practiced magic, in fact
one Nigidius Figulus was one of the most respected antiquarians of
the day, descended from an ancient Etruscan family. Periodically the
establishmen might expell astrologers, Chaldeans, but if you read
Apuleius' trial you can be sure there was magic & witchcraft
everywhere.

Monotheism was a very late effort in Judaea, goddess worship was
prevalent as well as witchcraft. And the later Talmud talks about
women & witchcraft incessantly. Texts really are talk about what
the author would 'like' to see. Cicero, Cato, the books of the
Hebrew Scriptures.....archeology finds out what regular people were
doing: curse tablets, spells, dolls with pins, you name it.
bene vale
Maior

> Witchcraft in Palestine would have been a very different concept

than in Rome - I'd be startled if Rome actually distinguished a
concept of witchcraft. I'm sure there were crazy old women, and
men, who could tell fortunes, but not a concept of something
criminal. The great mother goddess and primitive magic were both
part of the milieu.

>
> The people of Judea did actually have some sort of concept of a

witch, because in their patriarchal culture that assigned all
supernatural power to one god, a woman who claimed to interact with
the supernatural in any way was abrogating the powers of God. The
notion evolved along with their struggle against polytheism,
particularly anything associated with the great mother goddess and
nature religion.

>
> Yours,
> Dora Smith
> Austin, TX
> tiggernut24@...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Maior
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:54 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] witchcraft & the ancient world
>
>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> I was having an interesting discussion with my friend G.
> Fabius Buteo Modianus about modern witchcraft & the phenomena
> of 'JewWitches'[being Jewish] & found this really fascinating

link;

> http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/witches.html
>
> about ancient witches & witchcraft in Judaea, it's scholarly

with

> footnotes, so there is excellent information. I've also added

books on

> magic and witchcraft in Ancient Rome & the Empire to the cultus

deorum

> booklist at the NRwiki;
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
> I'm just returning to the source;-)
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
>
>
>
> ----------
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.465 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date:

4/21/2007 11:56 AM

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve, Aula Tullia Scholastica.

A. Tullia Scholastica wrote:

>> Whenever you respond to e-mail, you fail to remove the citation marks
>> before the lines you type yourself.
>>
>> ATS: No such marks appear in my text. They are put there by Yahoo. I
>> have no control over this, sorry to say.

Notice these two lines or whatever appear in front of the paragraphs
above? How it's easy to see that this paragraph isn't connected with
those paragraphs, and how difficult it is to determine that those two
aren't connected with each other?

If you have no control over them, then you are the only one I have ever
seen an e-mail from who suffers this particular affliction. Have you
tried, after placing your cursor, to hit return twice, followed by a
backspace? That generally works. In some cases, the interface will
require you to change the environment using a drop down menu or similar.

>> ATS: Yes, snipping is often a good thing. So, too, is avoiding the
>> vulgar language and crude commentary which has been posted here of late, along
>> with temper tantrums and other inappropriate behavior. We have no moderation
>> edictum because Cato refuses to accept one with any meat on its bones, so such
>> things are bound to happen.

A moderation edict is a limitation on the rights and powers of the
Praetors, put on themselves voluntarily to provide the citizens with a
clear set of guidelines as to what will cause the Praetors to act.
Without such a limitation, you are free to handle moderation in any
manner you see fit, as mandated by the constitution and the electorate.

>> ATS: I have been doing that all along. One should not make unwarranted
>> assumptions, such as that I write in Korean or that I see invisible pointy
>> brackets in my posts.

I made no assumptions, only the observations that was available in the
source code of your e-mails for anyone to see. The charset (though
admittedly an aberration, as all previous and subsequent e-mails have
been in western or UTF charsets) in that particular e-mail was Korean,
and I assure you, if those brackets (who mentioned that's what they
were?) are invisible to you, then you are in a world-wide minority of one.

>> There are none in this one as I write, but perhaps they
>> will appear when this lands on the ML.

They are there - try writing a message from scratch containing some text
and sending it to yourself, then replying to it with some additional
text, and then compare the two e-mails in your inbox. Was there a line
of some colour (perhaps black, but probably another) on the left side
when you wrote the reply, which was not present when you wrote the
original message? That's the crook.

>> They are quite annoying, but, as you
>> say, they can serve to distinguish speakers, though by the time there are
>> several copies of them in front of every line, it becomes rather difficult to
>> do even that, especially when someone replies to something and inadvertently
>> removes one or more brackets, thus making it more troublesome to identify the
>> speaker/writer.

I generally make a habit of "cleaning up" such conversation when
responding to it. In this case, I didn't alter the indentation to be
able to point out the double lines/brackets in your own reply, as opposed to

> the single brackets they should have been.

As a final note, if you are still unable to, with any of the methods
mentioned above, see and remove the brackets/lines/marks, you would do
better to stop responding to e-mails paragraph-by-paragraph, convenient
as it may be. Instead, let your writing flow uninterrupted by quoted
text, as your readers are often hard-pressed to discern it from your own
writings.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Salvete

Donative? This sounds more to special tax: the donatives are something voluntary�

Valete

M�CVRIATIVS�COMPLVTENSIS
TRIBVNVS PLEBIS
PROPRAETOR HISPANIA
SCRIBA CENSORIS GFBM
NOVA ROMA
-----------------------------------------
ex paucis multa, ex minimis maxima

----- Mensaje original -----
De: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@...
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 23 de abril de 2007 4:36
Asunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The proposed agenda for the APRIL Senate meeting.


Fl. Galerius M. Curiatio sal.

Perhaps this proposal for a special donative by the Senate and Conscript
Fathers to the Res Publica is a gesture of solidarity to encourage the citizens
to pay their voluntary annual taxes. I am sure that the members of the
Senate will clarify their reasoning in good time before the matter comes to a vote
in the Senate. Just as I am sure that your and I (along with our
colleagues) will insure that no consultum by the Senators and Conscript Fathers will in
anyway be in opposition to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and
Leges of Nova Roma.

Vale.

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear honorable Consul Fauste,

as a Roman I would like to thank you very much for your public prayers
to honor the 2760th birthday of our immortal city Roma and our
immortal gods.

As long as we honor as Romans our mighty and immortal Roman Gods we
will make Roma strong and impregnable !


Dis iuvantibus vita fruaris !

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
Titus Flavius Aquila
Civis Provinciae Germaniae

Salvete,

I'm preparing a flow-chart of relationships of major characters in
the Senate at 70's, 60's and 50's BC. I have started and currently
working on the chart of 60's. The relationship types I intend to
chart out include at least following: marriage bonds, ally/client,
suporter, adversary. I include only senators, not men from any other
class. At this moment I have 50 characters at the chart, but I have
yet to proceed into Crassus and Caesar.

The prupose of this is simply to produce an aid for keeping track of
relationships between those senators, a reference material to help
recognising who's who. As a starting point I have used Erich Gruen's
Last Generation of Roman Republic (a wonderful work!), and once I
have gone through it I'll check details from MRR and suchlike, and
then proceed to other sources.

If there are persons here who are interested in participating this
work, I'm more than happy to accept help, especially in digging out
details of each senator involved. Please contact me if you are
interested, and we'll talk more.

Valete,

C. Curius Saturninus

Senator - Aedilis Plebis - Propraetor Provinciae Thules
Rector Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@...
www.academiathules.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve, Dora

Perhaps you would like to read Apuleius's Golden Ass - I am reading it presently. It seems to give a good picture about witches and witchcraft in Roman empire. From what is there, it looks like female-witches were really to be afraid of in the supertitious sense, or to be ridiculed in the skeptical sense, but a sign of a good social integration. Even the names in latin for witch reveal an evil concept, such "malefica", the one who makes evil, or "venefica", the one who poisons.

Vale
Appius Iulius Priscus

Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote:
Witchcraft in Palestine would have been a very different concept than in Rome - I'd be startled if Rome actually distinguished a concept of witchcraft. I'm sure there were crazy old women, and men, who could tell fortunes, but not a concept of something criminal. The great mother goddess and primitive magic were both part of the milieu.

The people of Judea did actually have some sort of concept of a witch, because in their patriarchal culture that assigned all supernatural power to one god, a woman who claimed to interact with the supernatural in any way was abrogating the powers of God. The notion evolved along with their struggle against polytheism, particularly anything associated with the great mother goddess and nature religion.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@...

----- Original Message -----
From: Maior
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] witchcraft & the ancient world

M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
I was having an interesting discussion with my friend G.
Fabius Buteo Modianus about modern witchcraft & the phenomena
of 'JewWitches'[being Jewish] & found this really fascinating link;
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/witches.html

about ancient witches & witchcraft in Judaea, it's scholarly with
footnotes, so there is excellent information. I've also added books on
magic and witchcraft in Ancient Rome & the Empire to the cultus deorum
booklist at the NRwiki;
http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
I'm just returning to the source;-)
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior

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OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem IX Kalendas Maius; haec dies nefastus publicus
est.

"Vinalia priora, quae ante hos dies sunt VIIII kal. Mai. degustandis
vinis instituta, nihil ad fructus attinent, nec quae adhuc diximus ad
vites oleasque, quoniam earum conceptus exortu vergiliarum incipit a.
d. VI id. Mai., ut docuimus. aliud hoc quadriduum est, quo neque rore
sordidas velim — exurit enim frigidum sidus arcturi postridie occidens
— et multo minus plenilunium incidere." -Pliny, "Natural History",
viii.69

"I've spoken of Pales' festival, I'll speak of the Vinalia:
There's only a single day between the two.
You prostitutes, celebrate the divine power of Venus:
Venus suits those who earn by your profession.
Offer incense and pray for beauty and men's favour,
Pray to be charming, and blessed with witty words,
Give the Mistress myrtle, and the mint she loves,
And sheaves of rushes, wound in clustered roses.
Now's the time to crowd her temple near the Colline Gate,
One that takes its name from a Sicilian hill:
When Claudius took Arethusian Syracuse by force,
And captured that hill of Eryx, too, in the war,
Venus moved to Rome, according to the long-lived Sibyl's
Prophecy, preferring to be worshipped in her children's City.
Why then, you ask, is the Vinalia Venus' festival?
And why does this day belong to Jupiter?
There was a war to decide whether Turnus or Aeneas
Should be Latin Amata's son-in-law: Turnus begged help
From Etruscan Mezentius, a famous and proud fighter,
Mighty on horseback and mightier still on foot:
Turnus and the Rutuli tried to win him to their side.
The Tuscan leader replied to their suit:
`My courage costs me not a little: witness my wounds,
And my weapons that have often been dyed with blood.
If you seek my help you must divide with me
The next wine from your vats, no great prize.
No delay is needed: yours is to give, mine to conquer.
How Aeneas will wish you'd refused me!'
The Rutulians agreed. Mezentius donned his armour,
And so did Aeneas, and addressed Jove:
`The enemy's pledged his vine-crop to the Tyrrhenian king:
Jupiter, you shall have the wine from the Latin vines!'
The nobler prayer succeeded: huge Mezentius died,
And struck the ground, heart filled with indignation.
Autumn came, dyed with the trodden grapes:
The wine, justly owed to Jupiter, was paid.
So the day is called the Vinalia: Jupiter claims it,
And loves to be present at his feast." - Ovid, Fasti IV

There are two Vinaliae, the vinalia rustica and the vinalia urbana;
the vinalia urbana were celebrated on the 23rd of April. On this
occasion the wine casks which had been filled the preceding autumn
were opened for the first time, and the wine tasted. But before men
actually tasted the new wine, a libation was offered to Iuppiter,
which was called calpar.

Also on this day we honor Venus Erycina ("Venus from Eryx"), also
called Venus Erucina, whose worship originated on Mount Eryx in
western Sicily. Temples were erected to her on the Capitoline Hill and
outside the Porta Collina on this day in 215 BC, after the Roman
defeat at the Battle of Lake Trasimene.

The vinalia urbana was the Roman answer to a Greek festival called the
"Pithoigia", the "Opening of the Jars"; oigia means opening and pithos
is a very large ceramic-jars that was used for the storage of corn and
wine. They were filled with the juice of the grapes in the beginning
of October, then fermented heavily, then slowly and then in the end of
February it became wine, unfermented and ready to drink.

All the day of the Pithoigia wine had been transported from all of
Attica to the sanctuaries in the swamps. As the sun began to set, huge
crowds gathered in front of the temple which was opened when the sun
set and twelfth day of Anthesterion began. At the same time the
barrels where the wines were stored were opened and the wine was mixed
with water. The god was greeted by spilling a bit of ones wine at the
ground and then by drinking the rest.

At Pithoigia, there was light drinking. It was only the beginning of
the feast. The Dionysus-priestess, who had opened the temple, prayed
that the wine would bring happiness and health for everyone and that
the god would prevent its damaging causes. The rest of the evening
there was song and dance in the honor of the god.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Pliny, Ovid, Smith's Dictionary, Wikipedia

Cn. Lentulus A. Blanchio sal.:

>>> The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that your

predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules. <<<


The reconstructed Latin pronunciation, as I've learned it from many books, has nothing to do with Greek rules, it happaned the two languages were similar, since they were from the same parent language.

>>> The "G" in

Greek is always hard, <<<


That's true.

>>> there is no "K" <<<

This is not true. There is "K" in the Greek. And also in the Latin.

>>> [the Latins did not adopt the

"K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter was
not identical], <<<


The Latins used the "K", and what is more, they sometimes used the "K" instead of "C". There are inscriptions where words like "centurio" was written as "kenturio", "caput" as "kaput"; "Caeso" as "Kaiso" and so on...

The Latin C, K, Q were taken from the Etruscan alphabet, in the Etruscan there was difference between the three k-voices. C was used before E, I; K before A, Q before O, U in the Etruscan and C was pronounced likely "kj", K as "k" and Q likely "kw". In the Latin this distinction between "kj"-"k"-"kw" perhaps also existed, but surely was not so significant. There was probably some difference between C-K-Q. In time, however, this little difference, if existed at all, disappeared, and C remained as the only variant, except of Q+U.

The Etruscan letter C was a variant form of the Greek gamma ("g"), so this was also used for "g", both in Etruscan and in the early Latin.

>>> for example the adding for the

consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition of
"V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical save
for the consonant], <<<<


This is a misunderstanding. The Latin did not add any "V" to the words: the Greek was which lost initial "w"s which had existed earlier in the Indoeuropean.

>>> St. Augustine comments on how few

Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
difference between "U" and "V". <<<


Yes, there was certainly: U was pronounced as "u" (English "oo".), V as "w".

>>> Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical

pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of Italian
and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
pronunciation. <<<


The neolatin languages are just the evidence for the reconstructed Latin pronunciation (which isn't mine but that of science). The closest Neolatin language closest to the ancient Latin is the Sardinian. In the Sardinian there is no "ch" like in Italian. Sardinians don't say centum "chento", but "kentu".

And finally, the greatest evidence: ancient Roman grammars mention several times that C had to be pronounced as "k".



Cura, ut valeas!


Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
R O G A T O R
-------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
-------------------------------
Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Latinista, Classicus Philologus


---------------------------------

---------------------------------
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Cn. Lentulus A. Blanchio s.:

>>> Now

Greek has no "sliding" consonant, but Gaelic and German are full of
them; <<<


And are you sure that Gaelic and German was full of them also in the ancient times? I am not.

>>>> so I see no reason to doubt that Latin would have picked up

a "ch" sound for their soft C and a "g" like that of the soft G in
English for their soft G, those would be sounds they were familiar
with. <<<


But pronunciation of an other language does not influence the pronunciation of a language if not one which is spoken by the vaste majority of the people. If the majority of Roman people spoke German or Galeic languages, then influence could be expected. This is not the case.

>>>> This in the same way the aspirated "X" never seems to have made

it into Latin, perhaps because it wasn't a sound they had much
contact with, and so never made it into their lexicon [though
the "CH" does exist as a translation for the Greek "X"], I've never
read/heard of it being pronounced as an aspirated consonant. <<<<


Highly educated Romans could pronounce Greek aspirated CH, PH, TH. Illiterate people pronounced them as simple"k", "p", "t".


Cura, ut valeas!


---------------------------------

---------------------------------
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Salvete Prisce et Dora;
the 'Golden Ass' is wonderful. Full of information on
everyday society.
Apuleius was put on trial for practicing magic.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/apuleius/index.html Here is an good
link to a seminar on Apuleius & daily magic in Africa, where he came
from.
Appi Iuli, right now I am reading "Modern Witchcraft and
Psychoanalysis" by M.D. Faber & there is a lot of of excellent
material in there.

Apuleius would be a fun case study. Here is a worshipper of the
original Mother & is also a magician...& marries a wealthy older
woman. He is also a devotee of Aesculapius/Imhotep -healing deity &
a fine lawyer. The seminar says he 'performed magic with words'...so
evocative, so interesting!
Now there is some scholarly discussion that Apuleius
wasn't a devotee of Isis & was making fun of the cult, but from the
above details it seems unlikely. There is still a lot of scholarly
psychological resistance to polytheistic religious belief &
shamanism.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

> Perhaps you would like to read Apuleius's Golden Ass - I am

reading it presently. It seems to give a good picture about witches
and witchcraft in Roman empire. From what is there, it looks like
female-witches were really to be afraid of in the supertitious
sense, or to be ridiculed in the skeptical sense, but a sign of a
good social integration. Even the names in latin for witch reveal an
evil concept, such "malefica", the one who makes evil,
or "venefica", the one who poisons.

>
> Vale
> Appius Iulius Priscus
>
> Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote:
> Witchcraft in Palestine would have been a very different

concept than in Rome - I'd be startled if Rome actually
distinguished a concept of witchcraft. I'm sure there were crazy old
women, and men, who could tell fortunes, but not a concept of
something criminal. The great mother goddess and primitive magic
were both part of the milieu.

>
> The people of Judea did actually have some sort of concept of a

witch, because in their patriarchal culture that assigned all
supernatural power to one god, a woman who claimed to interact with
the supernatural in any way was abrogating the powers of God. The
notion evolved along with their struggle against polytheism,
particularly anything associated with the great mother goddess and
nature religion.

>
> Yours,
> Dora Smith
> Austin, TX
> tiggernut24@...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Maior
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:54 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] witchcraft & the ancient world
>
> M. Hortensia Quiritibus spd;
> I was having an interesting discussion with my friend G.
> Fabius Buteo Modianus about modern witchcraft & the phenomena
> of 'JewWitches'[being Jewish] & found this really fascinating link;
> http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/witches.html
>
> about ancient witches & witchcraft in Judaea, it's scholarly with
> footnotes, so there is excellent information. I've also added

books on

> magic and witchcraft in Ancient Rome & the Empire to the cultus

deorum

> booklist at the NRwiki;
> http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Reading_list_for_the_cultus_deorum
> I'm just returning to the source;-)
> bene valete in pacem deorum
> M. Hortensia Maior
>
> ----------
>
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> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.465 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date:

4/21/2007 11:56 AM

>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete Romans

Giving more thought to a Conventus Novae Romae in America
for 2760, I would like comments on this venue as a possibility

http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html<http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html><http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html>

As you will see it would involve camping and not a stay at a hotel.
The dates of this event run from July 27 through Aug 12.
During this period citizens could come and go when they can and stay for as long
as they like.

This is just an idea. I would to see how many people this would appeal to.


Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Consul



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salvete;
talk about synchronicity. I was talking with Gaius Buteo Modianus
about having the Conventus with Pantheacon
http://www.pantheacon.com/ Though I still love the idea of Las
Vegas. Ah Fortuna:)
valete
M. Hortensia Maior

>
> Giving more thought to a Conventus Novae Romae in America
> for 2760, I would like comments on this venue as a possibility
>
>

http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html<http://www.pennsicwar.org
/penn36/index.html><http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html>

>
> As you will see it would involve camping and not a stay at a

hotel.

> The dates of this event run from July 27 through Aug 12.
> During this period citizens could come and go when they can and

stay for as long

> as they like.
>
> This is just an idea. I would to see how many people this would

appeal to.

>
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Consul
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salvete Romans

The scholarship committee, that I appointed earlier this year, is hard
at work drafting the rules under which we will present our first two
scholarships.

In order to help the committee we need to know how may citizens of Nova
Roma are graduate students in any accredited university world wide.

The awards will be given to students studying Latin, Ancient Greek,
Ancient History, Archaeology, or related fields.

Please drop me a note if this applies to you.

Valete

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus Consul





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaius Fabius Buteo Modianus Tiberio Galerio Paulino salutem dicit

It would not appeal to me. Pennsic War is an SCA dominated event. The SCA,
while being a good organization, is a re-enactment organization and Nova
Roma is not such an organization. I think it would confuse people as to
what Nova Roma is about. I agree with Maior in that Pantheacon is a better
venue.

Also, we could simply create our own. I used to coordinate Elysium
Gathering, a four day festival in Ohio. Putting together an event requires
people to attend and people to coordinate it. It is not an easy endeavor,
but worth the effort.

Vale:

Modianus

On 4/23/07, Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Romans
>
> Giving more thought to a Conventus Novae Romae in America
> for 2760, I would like comments on this venue as a possibility
>
> http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html<http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html
> ><http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn36/index.html >
>
> As you will see it would involve camping and not a stay at a hotel.
> The dates of this event run from July 27 through Aug 12.
> During this period citizens could come and go when they can and stay for
> as long
> as they like.
>
> This is just an idea. I would to see how many people this would appeal to.
>
>
> Valete
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Consul
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Q. Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.

> Also, we could simply create our own. I used to coordinate
> Elysium Gathering, a four day festival in Ohio. Putting
> together an event requires people to attend and people to
> coordinate it. It is not an easy endeavor, but worth the effort.

I would personally be more in favor of exactly this. The question, though,
is one of how many people would be willing to attend. I have no lack of
confidence that we can find the people willing to organise such an event.

M. Hortensia Modiano, Paulino, Metello Quiritibus spd;
what a great plan, count me in to come & help in any way
needed. We can also broadcast it on Vox.

I had really looked forward to going to the Conventus in Merida, Spain
this summer. But the organizers have left it very late. Airfares from
$440 round trip will be more like $1,110 + staying in Madrid & then
staying in Merida + food, incidentals, plus the Euro is now approx at
$1.35.
Strong planning ahead, with a mind towards expenses & airfare,
trainfare, gas prices [always way higher in the summer] will make this
event possible. Modianus has done it, we can achieve the Conventus.
bene valete in pacem deorum
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
> Q. Caecilius Metellus Quiritibus salutem.
>
> > Also, we could simply create our own. I used to coordinate
> > Elysium Gathering, a four day festival in Ohio. Putting
> > together an event requires people to attend and people to
> > coordinate it. It is not an easy endeavor, but worth the effort.
>
> I would personally be more in favor of exactly this. The question,

though,

> is one of how many people would be willing to attend. I have no

lack of

> confidence that we can find the people willing to organise such an

event.

>

>
> A. Tullia Scholastica A. Bianchio Pio quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque bonae
> voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Since I am not a historical linguist, and this protest against the
> standard pronunciation of Latin requires the special expertise of someone
> skilled in that area, I shall yield the floor to my senior scriba, Lentulus,
> and possibly to Avitus by proxy, for the latter does not participate in any of
> the governmental lists of Nova Roma other than those of his provinces,
> preferring to confine his activities to the academic ones. Perhaps we can
> entice him to provide a sound file of some classical passage so that all could
> hear Latin prose correctly pronounced, but that must await news of his safe
> return from vacation and his ability to find the time to do that. Technical
> issues must also be addressed.
>
> I am pleased to see that Lentulus has already taken up the torch unbidden,
> and hope he has read my comments on this issue as well. So far he has done a
> very good job on dealing with this issue.
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> In response to A. Tullia Scholastica but also continuing the train of
> conversation.
> I have also studied Latin and Greek and am familiar with that
> particular opinion of academia; and I disagree with it.
>
> The Romans had two main linguistic influences, Greek from the south
> [Grecia Magna], and the Celts [and later Germans] from the north. Now
> Greek has no "sliding" consonant, but Gaelic and German are full of
> them; so I see no reason to doubt that Latin would have picked up
> a "ch" sound for their soft C and a "g" like that of the soft G in
> English for their soft G, those would be sounds they were familiar
> with. This in the same way the aspirated "X" never seems to have made
> it into Latin, perhaps because it wasn't a sound they had much
> contact with, and so never made it into their lexicon [though
> the "CH" does exist as a translation for the Greek "X"], I've never
> read/heard of it being pronounced as an aspirated consonant.
>
> I am also of firm opinion that the Romans made sure their Latin had
> rules of proninciation and grammar distinct from Greek. The "luxuria
> Graeca" was scorned by many Roman reformists and the fact that Latin
> never picked up accents, and yet retained a series of subtle rules
> for pronunciation I rather liken to how Englsh was deeply influenced
> by French, yet made sure to keep its own character...and avoid having
> any accents even with its quirks in pronunciation. Obviously the
> parallel is not direct, but history tends to repeat itself.
>
> Valete bene,
> A Blanchius Pius
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com> , "A.
> Tullia Scholastica"
> <fororom@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > > A. Tullia Scholastica A. Bianchio Pio quiritibus, sociis,
> peregrinisque bonae
>>> > > voluntatis S.P.D.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Salve Cornelius Lentulus et alius,
>>> > >
>>> > > The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that
> your
>>> > > predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules.
>>> > >
>>> > > Actually, he is predicating it upon the findings of classical
> philology.
>>> > > This is the standard pronunciation of Latin, and, insofar as we
> are able to
>>> > > determine, the one the Romans used.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > The "G" in
>>> > > Greek is always hard, there is no "K"
>>> > >
>>> > > Last I checked, kappa was part of the Greek alphabet, and
> double gamma was
>>> > > a velar nasal. Koppa, a different, Q-like letter, also existed,
> at least in
>>> > > dialects.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > [the Latins did not adopt the
>>> > > "K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter
> was
>>> > > not identical],
>>> > >
>>> > > Latin has both C and K, although the latter is rare. The
> Latin alphabet
>>> > > was derived from the West Greek one; the Greek alphabet was
> derived from the
>>> > > East Greek one, which replaced the original Old Attic alphabet
> after the
>>> > > Peloponnesian War, c. 403 BC. Different areas retained different
> alphabets,
>>> > > too...
>>> > >
>>> > > and there is no "V".
> <snip>
>>> > >
>>> > > The idea of Latin being a little
>>> > > softer than Greek in pronunciation, and with more vowel-consonant
>>> > > balance keeps with the Roman love of harmony
>>> > >
>>> > > The Greeks were quite fond of harmony...
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > and comprehends many of
>>> > > the changes which Latin instituted; for example the adding for the
>>> > > consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition
> of
>>> > > "V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical
> save
>>> > > for the consonant],
>>> > >
>>> > > I am not a historical linguist, but I seriously doubt that
> letters were
>>> > > added to huios to make it into filius, and it is also possible
> that hesperos
>>> > > was wesperos at some point, at least in the parent language.
> Liddell, Scott,
>>> > > and Jones, the Greek unabridged dictionary, gives among the many
> possible
>>> > > forms of huios one from an inscription, whios, from Nemea, and
> the OLD gives
>>> > > feliuf as the Umbrian version of filius.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > there are other examples I could use, but these
>>> > > will suffice for now.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > There is also the long history of Ecclesiastical pronunciation,
> whose
>>> > > lexicon began with first century. St. Augustine comments on how
> few
>>> > > Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
>>> > > difference between "U" and "V".
>>> > >
>>> > > By then, there probably was. Not many Latin words begin with
> K, or B, for
>>> > > that matter, and some other initial letters are comparatively
> rare.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
>>> > > pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of
> Italian
>>> > > and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
>>> > > pronunciation.
>>> > >
>>> > > Lentulus has not provided his version of Latin pronunciation,
> but that of
>>> > > classical scholars the world over.
>
> <snip>
>
> This
>>> > > is the pronunciation taught by our own A. Gratius Avitus, a world-
> famous
>>> > > Latinist, and by virtually every other academic in the field. It
> may be
>>> > > uncomfortable for some people to hear that classical Latin was
> not pronounced
>>> > > like, say, Italian, but that is what our research proves to us.
> This is not
>>> > > Lentulus¹ opinion, or mine, but that of academia as a whole.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Valete,
>>> > > Aulus Blanchius Pius
>>> > >
>>> > > Vale, et valete.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Nova-Roma%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> <mailto:Nova-Roma%
> 40yahoogroups.com> , Gnaeus
>>> > > Cornelius Lentulus
>>> > > <cn_corn_lent@> wrote:
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > Cn. Lentulus Q. Valerio sal.:
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > Your pronunciation, Quinte Valeri, is very similar to the Latin
>>> > > pronunciation of the 4th-5th cetury CE. In those times:
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > ci = was "kyi" or "tyi" and was developing to "chi" at the
> 5th-6th
>>> > > century.
>>>>> > >> > gi = was "gyi" or "dyi", similarly developing to "ji" (J-
> like in
>>> > > John).
>>>>> > >> > tia, tie, tii, tio, tiu = were "tsia", "tsie" etc..
>>>>> > >> > ae, oe = were "e", like in English "men".
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > So your method is similar to that, but what you use exactly
> was
>>> > > never existed as a Latin pronunciation.
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > The classical Latin pronunciation, the pronunciation from
> the 2th
>>> > > century BC to 2th century CE was as follows:
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > ae = ay like in English "why", "I"...
>>>>> > >> > oe = oy, like in English "boy"
>>>>> > >> > "c" and "g" = always "k" and "g" without any exception.
>>>>> > >> > ti = always "ti" without any exception.
>>>>> > >> > v = a bilabial fricative (caught between v and w, like in
> hindi)
>>>>> > >> > qu = kw/kv (like above)
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > If you want to pronounce Latin as the great Romans did, you
> have to
>>> > > adopt that way I have written above.
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > Cura ut valeas!
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
>>>>> > >> > R O G A T O R
>>>>> > >> > -------------------------------
>>>>> > >> > Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
>>>>> > >> > Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
>>>>> > >> > Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
>>>>> > >> > Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
>>>>> > >> > Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
>>>>> > >> > -------------------------------
>>>>> > >> > Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>>>>> > >> > Dominus Factionis Russatae
>>>>> > >> > Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>>>>> > >> >
>>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> A. Tullia Scholastica Cn. Cornelio Lentulo quiritibus, sociis, peregrinisque
> bonae voluntatis S.P.D.
>
> Disputatio tua mihi magnopere placet. Sperebam te adfuturum esse.
>
> Re: Etruscan alphabet: Is this not a variant of the West Greek one,
> whence we know something of the phonology of Etruscan, but little of the
> meaning? I also noted earlier that Greek had lost digamma, or converted it to
> beta, pronounced as a spirant (v, in English), without, it seems, any success
> in convincing either of the Pii. Of course, there will always be those who
> will proclaim that Varro and others did not know what they were talking about,
> but you and I, Lentule, do not fall into that camp.
>
> Vale, et valete.
>
>
>
> Cn. Lentulus A. Blanchio sal.:
>
>
>>>> >>> The only problem with pronunciation as you've laid it out is that your
> predicating Latin pronunciation entirely upon Greek rules. <<<
>
>
> The reconstructed Latin pronunciation, as I've learned it from many books,
> has nothing to do with Greek rules, it happaned the two languages were
> similar, since they were from the same parent language.
>
>
>>>> >>> The "G" in
> Greek is always hard, <<<
>
>
> That's true.
>
>>>> >>> there is no "K" <<<
>
>
> This is not true. There is "K" in the Greek. And also in the Latin.
>
>
>>>> >>> [the Latins did not adopt the
> "K", they chose the "C" and I believe it was because the letter was
> not identical], <<<
>
>
> The Latins used the "K", and what is more, they sometimes used the "K"
> instead of "C". There are inscriptions where words like "centurio" was written
> as "kenturio", "caput" as "kaput"; "Caeso" as "Kaiso" and so on...
>
> The Latin C, K, Q were taken from the Etruscan alphabet, in the Etruscan
> there was difference between the three k-voices. C was used before E, I; K
> before A, Q before O, U in the Etruscan and C was pronounced likely "kj", K as
> "k" and Q likely "kw". In the Latin this distinction between "kj"-"k"-"kw"
> perhaps also existed, but surely was not so significant. There was probably
> some difference between C-K-Q. In time, however, this little difference, if
> existed at all, disappeared, and C remained as the only variant, except of
> Q+U.
>
> The Etruscan letter C was a variant form of the Greek gamma ("g"), so this
> was also used for "g", both in Etruscan and in the early Latin.
>
>
>>>> >>> for example the adding for the
> consonants to the Latin version of the word for son, the addition of
> "V" in vespers [as opposed to the Greek which is almost identical save
> for the consonant], <<<<
>
>
> This is a misunderstanding. The Latin did not add any "V" to the words: the
> Greek was which lost initial "w"s which had existed earlier in the
> Indoeuropean.
>
>
>>>> >>> St. Augustine comments on how few
> Latin words begin with "U", which would indicate that there was a
> difference between "U" and "V". <<<
>
>
> Yes, there was certainly: U was pronounced as "u" (English "oo".), V as "w".
>
>
>>>> >>> Anyway, I wasn't in ancient Rome, but tradition of Ecclesiastical
> pronunciation, as well as the character of the development of Italian
> and to a lesser extent French does not agree with your version of
> pronunciation. <<<
>
>
> The neolatin languages are just the evidence for the reconstructed Latin
> pronunciation (which isn't mine but that of science). The closest Neolatin
> language closest to the ancient Latin is the Sardinian. In the Sardinian there
> is no "ch" like in Italian. Sardinians don't say centum "chento", but "kentu".
>
> And finally, the greatest evidence: ancient Roman grammars mention several
> times that C had to be pronounced as "k".
>
>
>
> Cura, ut valeas!
>
> Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus,
> R O G A T O R
> -------------------------------
> Propraetor Provinciae Pannoniae
> Sacerdos Provinciae Pannoniae
> Accensus Consulis Ti. Galerii Paulini
> Scriba Aedilis Curulis Iuliae Caesaris Cytheridis Aeges
> Scriba Interpretis Linguae Latinae A. Tulliae Scholasticae
> -------------------------------
> Decurio I. Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Dominus Factionis Russatae
> Latinista, Classicus Philologus
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OSD C. Equitius Cato

Salvete omnes!

Hodie est ante diem VIII Kalendas Maius; haec dies comitialis est.

"Ad voluptatem oratoriae eloquentiae transeo, cuius iucunditas non uno
aliquo momento, sed omnibus prope diebus ac prope omnibus horis
contingit. Quid enim dulcius libero et ingenuo animo et ad voluptates
honestas nato quam videre plenam semper et frequentem domum suam
concursu splendidissimorum hominum? idque scire non pecuniae, non
orbitati, non officii alicuius administrationi, sed sibi ipsi dari?
ipsos quin immo orbos et locupletes et potentis venire plerumque ad
iuvenem et pauperem, ut aut sua aut amicorum discrimina commendent.
ullane tanta ingentium opum ac magnae potentiae voluptas quam spectare
homines veteres et senes et totius orbis gratia subnixos in summa
rerum omnium abundantia confitentis, id quod optimum sit se non
habere? iam vero qui togatorum comitatus et egressus! Quae in publico
species! Quae in iudiciis veneratio! Quod illud gaudium consurgendi
adsistendique inter tacentis et in unum conversos! coire populum et
circumfundi coram et accipere adfectum, quemcumque orator induerit!
vulgata dicentium gaudia et imperitorum quoque oculis exposita
percenseo: illa secretiora et tantum ipsis orantibus nota maiora sunt.
Sive accuratam meditatamque profert orationem, est quoddam sicut
ipsius dictionis, ita gaudii pondus et constantia; sive novam et
recentem curam non sine aliqua trepidatione animi attulerit, ipsa
sollicitudo commendat eventum et lenocinatur voluptati. Sed
extemporalis audaciae atque ipsius temeritatis vel praecipua
iucunditas est; nam ingenio quoque, sicut in agro, quamquam diu
serantur atque elaborentur, gratiora tamen quae sua sponte nascuntur."

"I pass now to the pleasure derived from the orator's eloquence. Its
delights are enjoyed not for a single moment, but almost on every day
and at every hour. To the mind of an educated gentleman, naturally
fitted for worthy enjoyments, what can be more delightful than to see
his house always thronged and crowded by gatherings of the most
eminent men, and to know that the honour is paid not to his wealth,
his childlessness, or his possession of some office, but to himself?
Nay, more; the childless, the rich, and the powerful often go to one
who is both young and poor, in order to intrust him with difficulties
affecting themselves or their friends. Can there be any pleasure from
boundless wealth and vast power equal to that of seeing men in years,
and even in old age, men backed by the influence of the whole world,
readily confessing, amid the utmost affluence of every kind, that they
do not possess that which is the best of all? Again, look at the
respectable citizens who escort the pleader to and from the court.
Look at his appearance in public, and the respect shown him before the
judges. What a delight it must be to rise and stand amid the hushed
crowd, with every eye on him alone, the people assembling and
gathering round him in a circle, and taking from the orator any
emotion he has himself assumed. I am now reckoning the notorious joys
of an orator, those which are open to the sight even of the
uneducated; the more secret, known only to the advocate himself, are
yet greater. If he produces a careful and well-prepared speech, there
is a solidity and stedfastness in his satisfaction, just as there is
in his style; if, again, he offers his audience, not without some
tremblings at heart, the result of a fresh and sudden effort, his very
anxiety enhances the joy of success, and ministers to his pleasure. In
fact, audacity at the moment, and rashness itself, have quite a
peculiar sweetness. As with the earth, so with genius. Though time
must be bestowed on the sowing and cultivation of some plants, yet
those which grow spontaneously are the more pleasing.


To speak my own mind, I did not experience more job on the day on
which I was presented with the robe of a senator, or when, as a new
man, born in a far from influential state, I was elected quæstor, or
tribune, or prætor, than on those on which it was my privilege,
considering the insignificance of my ability as a speaker, to defend a
prisoner with success, to win a verdict in a cause before the Court of
the Hundred, or to give the support of my advocacy in the emperor's
presence to the great freedmen themselves, or to ministers of the
crown. On such occasions I seem to rise above tribunates,
prætorships,
and consulships, and to possess that which, if it be not of natural
growth, is not bestowed by mandate, nor comes through interest. Again,
is there an accomplishment, the fame and glory of which are to be
compared with the distinction of the orator, who is an illustrious man
at Rome, not only with the busy class, intent on public affairs, but
even with people of leisure, and with the young, those at least who
have a right disposition and a worthy confidence in themselves? Whose
name does the father din into his children's ears before that of the
orator? Whom, as he passes by, do the ignorant mob and the men with
the tunic oftener speak of by name and point out with the finger?
Strangers too and foreigners, having heard of him in their towns and
colonies, as soon as they have arrived at Rome, ask for him and are
eager, as it were, to recognise him." - Tacitus, On Oratory 6-7

"Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.

O Muse! the causes and the crimes relate;
What goddess was provok'd, and whence her hate;
For what offense the Queen of Heav'n began
To persecute so brave, so just a man;
Involv'd his anxious life in endless cares,
Expos'd to wants, and hurried into wars!
Can heav'nly minds such high resentment show,
Or exercise their spite in human woe?

Against the Tiber's mouth, but far away,
An ancient town was seated on the sea;
A Tyrian colony; the people made
Stout for the war, and studious of their trade:
Carthage the name; belov'd by Juno more
Than her own Argos, or the Samian shore.
Here stood her chariot; here, if Heav'n were kind,
The seat of awful empire she design'd.
Yet she had heard an ancient rumor fly,
(Long cited by the people of the sky,)
That times to come should see the Trojan race
Her Carthage ruin, and her tow'rs deface;
Nor thus confin'd, the yoke of sov'reign sway
Should on the necks of all the nations lay.
She ponder'd this, and fear'd it was in fate;
Nor could forget the war she wag'd of late
For conqu'ring Greece against the Trojan state.
Besides, long causes working in her mind,
And secret seeds of envy, lay behind;
Deep graven in her heart the doom remain'd
Of partial Paris, and her form disdain'd;
The grace bestow'd on ravish'd Ganymed,
Electra's glories, and her injur'd bed.
Each was a cause alone; and all combin'd
To kindle vengeance in her haughty mind.
For this, far distant from the Latian coast
She drove the remnants of the Trojan host;
And sev'n long years th' unhappy wand'ring train
Were toss'd by storms, and scatter'd thro' the main.
Such time, such toil, requir'd the Roman name,
Such length of labor for so vast a frame." - Vergil, Aenead I

Today is the second day of the Vinalia Urbana.

Valete bene!

Cato



SOURCES

Tacitus, Vergil

Hello everyone,
I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.
I joined this group because I wish to know certain facts about the
Legionaires. Moreover, I also need a few phrases translated into latin
for purposes of my sorority. I hope i am nnot a burden.

All the best.

viproom112 <viproom112@...> writes:

> Hello everyone,
> I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.

Hello Kimberly,

Welcome to Nova Roma. I've known a few Fordham Law students, and it says a
lot about you that you're there. Awfully fine school.

> I joined this group because I wish to know certain facts about the
> Legionaires.

You'll reach some of the people who know about the legions here, but you might
do better if you also join the mailing list of the Sodalitas Militarium. To
do that just send a blank e-mail message to

SodalitasMilitarium-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

> Moreover, I also need a few phrases translated into latin
> for purposes of my sorority. I hope i am not a burden.

As long as you don't ask for lots and lots of translation, I doubt you'll be a
burden. Our Latin language group is the Sodalitas Latinitatis, and may be
joined by sending a blank e-mail message ti

SodalitasLatinitas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

(Noticing a trend here?)

Are you thinking of joining Nova Roma? Or are you simply visiting for now?

All the best to you too,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

(Please just call me Marinus)

Salve Kimberly,

I hope you enjoy the Nova Roma main list. Have you considered applying
for citizenship? By participating in the election process and some of
our debates, you will find yourself learning quite a bit about Rome,
Latin, etc.

--Ti Octavius Avitus

On 4/24/07, viproom112 <viproom112@...> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.
> I joined this group because I wish to know certain facts about the
> Legionaires. Moreover, I also need a few phrases translated into latin
> for purposes of my sorority. I hope i am nnot a burden.
>
> All the best.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Men are haunted by the vastness of eternity.
And so we ask ourselves: will our actions
echo across centuries?
Will strangers hear our names long after
we are gone, and wonder who we were,
how bravely we fought, how fiercely we loved?

Salvete omnes!

I wanted to bring everyone's attention to something on the New York Times website today.
On the front page of the Arts section is a nice five-minute video on the recent opening of the
Metropolitan Museum's hugely expanded and renovated galleries of Greek and Roman art,
including a look at some of the highlights of the collection and a brief discussion of the
influence the galleries have had over the years on New York artists such as Willem de
Kooning.

You can find the video here:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/arts/index.html

(If the video is no longer on the front page by the time you see this, you should be able to
find it archived in their multimedia section.)

Valete!

M. Cornelius Dexter
Novum Eboracum (NYC)

M. Hortensia A. Tulliae Scholasticae Cn. Cornelio Lentulo spd;
Are you and Lentulus interested in doing a voice recording
of Caesar's Gallic Wars for 'Vox Romana'? I had no heard from you. I
thought everyone would enjoy it a great deal as many are interested
in military history & Caesar. Also both of you could illustrate your
academic Latin accents.

Interestingly, if we think about it Varro & Cicero were a tiny upper
crust, living in Rome. Think of the Latin spoken in the various
provinces by officials, military etc in Hispania, Dacia, Egypt,
Libya, Anatolia, Britannia, and Germania, even Northern Italy had a
different accent.

So a 'pure' Roman accent is about as real as all the English
speakers from India, Australia, South Africa, the U.S., Ireland,
Liberia, Jamaica & the English-speaking Caribbean, Scotland, Wales
speaking with a BBC Accent!
many accents in Latin are a wonderful thing
bene valete
M. Hortensia Maior
producer "Vox Romana" podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/


Disputatio tua mihi magnopere placet. Sperebam te adfuturum
esse.

> >
> > Of course, there will always be those who
> > will proclaim that Varro and others did not know what they were

talking about,

> > but you and I, Lentule, do not fall into that camp.
> >
> > Vale, et valete.


>

Hello Kimberly. I'm a history major at Brooklyn College and a Rome nut, so I will be happy to help as much as I can.

Vale

viproom112 <viproom112@...> wrote: Hello everyone,
I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.
I joined this group because I wish to know certain facts about the
Legionaires. Moreover, I also need a few phrases translated into latin
for purposes of my sorority. I hope i am nnot a burden.

All the best.








---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

P. Memmius Albucius Kimberliae Jorgeo s.d.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Hernandez <centurion_4545@...>
wrote:

> Hello Kimberly. I'm a history major at Brooklyn College (..)
>> I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.

In which country are Brooklyn college and Fordham (university ?),
please ?


Valete,


P. Memmius Albucius

Salve Albuci,

A web search for "Fordham University" or "Brooklyn College" will reveal that
both institutions of higher learning are located in the United States of
America.

Vale,

CN•EQVIT•MARINVS

Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> writes:

> P. Memmius Albucius Kimberliae Jorgeo s.d.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Hernandez <centurion_4545@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Kimberly. I'm a history major at Brooklyn College (..)
> >> I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.
>
>
> In which country are Brooklyn college and Fordham (university ?),
> please ?
>
>
> Valete,
>
>
> P. Memmius Albucius

Reminder from:		Nova-Roma Yahoo! Group
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Time:		12:00 am - 1:00 am
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--Salve; I think Albuci in his own subtle way was saying this is an
international list, so it's nice to let others know: our Pannoni,
Hispani, Daci, Britanni, Brasili, where these places are located.
New York City:) Novum Eboracum.

Salvete; Kimberly, Jorge, we really are an international bunch
devoted to Romanitas & Latin. So welcome. Nova Roma is a fantastic
place!
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
>
> A web search for "Fordham University" or "Brooklyn College" will

reveal that

> both institutions of higher learning are located in the United

States of

> America.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>
> Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> writes:
>
> > P. Memmius Albucius Kimberliae Jorgeo s.d.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Hernandez

<centurion_4545@>

> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Kimberly. I'm a history major at Brooklyn College (..)
> > >> I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.
> >
> >
> > In which country are Brooklyn college and Fordham (university ?),
> > please ?
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> >
> > P. Memmius Albucius
>

Fordham University is located in the Bronx, New York City.
-Kimberly


Maior <rory12001@...> wrote:
--Salve; I think Albuci in his own subtle way was saying this is an
international list, so it's nice to let others know: our Pannoni,
Hispani, Daci, Britanni, Brasili, where these places are located.
New York City:) Novum Eboracum.

Salvete; Kimberly, Jorge, we really are an international bunch
devoted to Romanitas & Latin. So welcome. Nova Roma is a fantastic
place!
bene vale
M. Hortensia Maior
producer 'Vox Romana'podcast
http://www.insulaumbra.com/voxromana/

>
>
> A web search for "Fordham University" or "Brooklyn College" will

reveal that

> both institutions of higher learning are located in the United

States of

> America.
>
> Vale,
>
> CN•EQVIT•MARINVS
>
> Publius Memmius Albucius <albucius_aoe@...> writes:
>
> > P. Memmius Albucius Kimberliae Jorgeo s.d.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Hernandez

<centurion_4545@>

> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Kimberly. I'm a history major at Brooklyn College (..)
> > >> I am Kimberly, 23 studying Law at Fordham.
> >
> >
> > In which country are Brooklyn college and Fordham (university ?),
> > please ?
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> >
> > P. Memmius Albucius
>

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]